Browse content similar to 21/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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think we need to give credit where it is due due. If that practice is | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
going on, I will be very happy to look into it. Order. Urgent | :00:00. | :00:11. | |
question, Lisa Nandy. To make a statement on the leadership, | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
staffing and budget and structure of the independent inquiry into child | :00:16. | :00:25. | |
sexual abuse. Mr Speaker, the inquiry was set up to look at the | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
extent to which institutions in England and Wales failed to protect | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
children from sexual abuse. We know the terrible impact that abuse has | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
on survivors, sometimes for many years. As the House knows, following | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
the resignation of the previous chair, my honourable friend the Home | :00:46. | :00:53. | |
Secretary appointed Alexis Jay. She has a distinguished career in social | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
work. She led the independent inquiry into child sexual | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
exploitation in Rotherham where she scrutinised the work of social | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
workers and proved her capability to uncover failings across institutions | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
and professions. She is the right person to take this work forward. | :01:12. | :01:17. | |
Taking the work forward is vital for creating a sense of certainty for | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
victims and survivors. The inquiry is set up 13 strands of | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
investigation, made two hundred and 50 formal requests for information | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
from over 10 institutions. -- 120 institutions. With 164,000 documents | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
submitted. They have referred eighty cases a week to the police. It has | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
rolled out the Truth project, allowing survivors to tell the | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
inquiry what has happened to emthchlt -- to them. The inquiry has | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
adequate resources to undertake its work and we will support the inquiry | :01:58. | :02:03. | |
with what they need. The inquiry remains independent. Which mean ps | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
it is not part of government and is not run by a government department. | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
Professor Jay is mindful of the scale of the task and the need to | :02:13. | :02:19. | |
move forward with pace that. Is why she has instigated a review of the | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
inquiry's approach. Exploring new ways to develop its work, whilst | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
remaining faithful to its terms of reference. She has made clear that | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
if any changes are proposed the views affected by those will be | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
sought. We expect the outcome of this review soon. It is crucial that | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
we now give the inquiry the space and support it needs to get on with | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
its job. Getting to the truth for victims and survivors and I urge | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
everyone in this House to do just that. Where is the Home Secretary | :02:59. | :03:07. | |
and why is it nobody from the Government has sought to come to | :03:08. | :03:15. | |
this House and provide reassurance about the serious events. Has the | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
Home Secretary met survivors' groups and what steps has she taken to | :03:23. | :03:31. | |
establish the chair and the panel have the skills to succeed. Have | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
anyone nvred while lawyers have cited concerns. Is the former chief | :03:39. | :03:48. | |
legal counsel still being paid and if so why, what action is the Home | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
Office taking to establish there was a disclosure of sexual assault and | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
is she satisfied that disclosure was dealt with properly by the inquiry | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
and can she give me a personal assurance that the intelligence | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
services are standing by the commitment to hand over all files? | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
And that that this is not being obstructed. We have heard and | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
professor Jay's review for the first time in August. Is where is it. This | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
is the second time I have asked ministers to account for these | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
failings. They have lost seven senior lawyers and several survivors | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
groups. It is now impossible to see that this inquiry is still | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
operating. This maybe the last chance that the Prime Minister and | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
her Home Secretary have to reduce the inquiry that she set up. Will | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
she stop hiding behind independence and recognise she has responsibility | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
for this inquiry's success and get a grip on it? Thank you. I'm | :04:49. | :04:58. | |
delighted, as the minister responsible for vulnerability, | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
safeguarding and counter extremism, to be here to answer this question. | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
It is absolutely at the core of this government's priority to safeguard | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
children in our country. The Home Secretary was in this House as | :05:15. | :05:22. | |
recently as October 17th answering questions in detail, the Home | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
Affairs Select Committee has asked questions of permanent Secretary of | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
Home Office. The the honourable lady is wrong in asserting there is some | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
sort of smoke screen and hiding behind independence. It is essential | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
that this inquiry is an independent inquiry. The terms of reference of | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
this inquiry were shaped with the voices and the opinions of the | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
victims. And it is very important that this independence is | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
maintained. Now, the honourable lady asked a series of operational | :05:56. | :05:59. | |
questions. All of those questions are for if chair and the leadership | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
of the independent inquiry. For me to answer those questions here would | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
be wrong, because we one intervening in the independence of the inquiry. | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
I am confident, as is the Prime Minister, as is the Home Secretary, | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
in the ability of professor Jay to lead this rink. I think it is | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
important that we all get behind the inquiry so they can get on and do | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
their really important work, making sure they get to the truth and | :06:31. | :06:40. | |
deliver for victims. May I tell my honourable friend that I don't for | :06:41. | :06:48. | |
one moment... Underscore or undervalue the intentions of those | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
who set up the inquiry and those who are working with it, albeit it has | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
had a rocky road. Nor do I underestimate for one moment the | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
trauma that those who have been affected by sex abuse, child sex | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
abuse, has had upon them. I have acted in a number of criminal cases | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
in which I have seen with my own eyes the terrible consequences for | :07:13. | :07:15. | |
adults of what happened to them as children. But I want to ask her a | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
question from a different angle. I have a constituent who since the | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
early part of this century has been left in limbo and does not know | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
whether he is an accused person, whether he is a witness, what is his | :07:32. | :07:38. | |
status in relation to this inquiry? And he, like the victims, needs to | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
be told when this is all going to finish. Both for him and for the | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
victims. Would my right honourable friend make inquiries of inquiry to | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
ensure that this man can either be prosecuted, or set free. | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
I thank my honourable friend for his customary thoughtfulness in the way | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
he asks his questions and the way he's reflected on the importance of | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
this inquiry, because as he quite rightly points out, it can have a | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
devastating impact and as he quite rightly points out, not always just | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
on the victims but also on those people who are caught up in | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
inquiries. My honourable friend is referring to a particular case, | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
which will be an operational matter for the police. While I can | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
understand why he wants to bring this matter to a swift concollusion | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
on behalf of his constituent, these are operational matters for the | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
police. Of course, quite rightly they are independent of the Home | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
Office. This inquiry is on its fourth chair. Every time ministers | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
have come to the House and asserted that the current chair is the right | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
person to take the inquiry forward. For the fourth time of saying that, | :09:01. | :09:06. | |
why do they expect this House, the public and, above all, the survivors | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
to be reassured? Of course, as the minister has said, this is an | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
independent inquiry. In particular as to its conduct and its find gds, | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
but that doesn't mean that the office can take no responsibility at | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
all. On the question of the Shirley Oaks survivors in the Lambeth | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
children's home, I've heard the minister say that she won't answer | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
operational questions, but she knows their concern about having a social | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
worker as overall chair of the inquiry. They have said they would | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
accept a vice chair for their strand who wasn't a social worker, have | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
ministers put that to Alexis Jay? And above all, I hope the minister | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
won't dismiss this as a operational question, the Shirley Oaks survivors | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
want to know what the office involvement in the monitoring and | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
supervision of Lambeth children's homes over the period when the | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
historic child abuse occurred? Ministers cannot let this inquiry | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
just run into the sand. The public expects better. This House expects | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
better. And the survivors expect better. I thank the honourable lady | :10:21. | :10:28. | |
for her question. I can absolutely assure her and every other member in | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
this House that we will absolutely not let this inquiry run into the | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
sand. It is vitally important to the whole protection of children in our | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
country that we understand the failings of the past, that we seek | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
remedies for the victims and what we use that intelligence to better | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
improve safeguarding anningments for children today. The right honourable | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
lady asked questions about operational details, which she knows | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
full well it would be completely inappropriate for me to answer, | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
absolutely inappropriate for me to answer. But I can assure you that | :11:10. | :11:16. | |
the chair of the independent inquiry regularly meets with the survivor | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
groups and I'm sure that she will be listening to the concerns raised by | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
the Shirley Oaks survivors association. She is undertaking a | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
review to make sure that the inquiry is properly focussed to address the | :11:35. | :11:39. | |
really serious concerns its raising. While I appreciate this is an | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
independent inquiry, my honourable friend must understand how these | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
victims groups have become upset, disturbed about the Fayure of it and | :11:51. | :11:52. | |
-- nature of it and how long it's going to take. Can at least my | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
honourable friend assure me that the scope of the inquiry will not be | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
reduced and can she also assure me that whatever funds are required by | :12:01. | :12:05. | |
the inquiry will be delivered by the Home Office. | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
I thank my honourable friend for that comment. I quite understand | :12:09. | :12:16. | |
that the victims who have been abused will feel disappointed about | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
some of the issues that have been happening with the inquiry. I quite | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
understand that. But it is vitally important, as he says, that the | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
independence of the inquiry is absolutely maintained. And that the | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
chairman is meeting, is engaging with survivors organisations and | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
individuals to make sure that the inquiry absolutely delivers on its | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
terms of reference, which they actually shape themselves. I think | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
going back to my statement, the fact that 80 cases a week are being | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
referred to the police, that over 500 people have come forward to | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
participate in the truth project shows how valuable this inquiry | :12:56. | :13:02. | |
already is to those victims. Mr Speaker, we all know that this | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
inquiry's been dogged by setbacks and rock legals. So it's | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
disappointing to -- problems, so it's disappointing to learn of the | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
latest withdrawals and expressions of concern from groups representing | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
victims and survivors. I'm sure all want to see this inquiry succeed. We | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
want it to meet its purpose of investigating historical allegations | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
of child sexual abuse. Above all we want justice for those people whose | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
lives have been harmed by abuse. To do so, we need to restore and secure | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
confidence in this inquiry and its findings. Mr Speaker, | :13:39. | :13:41. | |
notwithstanding the minister's reluctance to address what she | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
considers to be operational matters, can she tell us when she anticipates | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
a suitable legal counsel will be appointed? Following the resignation | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
of the previous chair in August, does she know whether internal | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
procedures for resolving complaints about staff and panel members have | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
been established? And most importantly, this is categorically | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
not an operational matter, what does the minister plan to do to restore | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
trust in the proceedings for those survivors of sexual abous and to | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
regain their support? I thank the honourable lady for her series of | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
questions and to take the last point first, in terms of confidence. I | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
think there's a huge amount that we can do in this House, that is | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
actually to get behind the inquiry. It is open for business. I think | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
it's worth getting in perspective while I'm disappointed that one | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
victims group has decided not to engage with the inquiry, at the | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
current time, that is really disappointing that's the case. But I | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
am hopeful they will re-engage in the future. We must remember it is | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
one, the inquiry is getting on with its work. In terms of the legal | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
council, that is for the chair and the leadership of the commission. | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
It's their responsibility to make sure that they appoint the people | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
necessary to undertake the task. I'm sure that the chair understands the | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
concerns raised by members in this House, by victims' organisations to | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
make sure that she gets on, resolves these issues, so that we can all see | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
the very important work that the inquiry's doing, comes to a swift | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
and really good conclusion. Mr Speaker, would the honourable lady | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
agree with me that the role of the Home Secretary or any Secretary of | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
State under the inquiries act is to appoint the chair and the panel and | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
to agree the terms of reference with that chair. That for a member to | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
come to this house with an imperious and list of questions like that we | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
heard from the honourable lady does not help the inquiry and totally | :15:48. | :15:55. | |
fails to understand the law. I thank my honourable friend for such an | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
insightful question. Of course, he would know as a lawyer. It is very | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
disappointing that members opposite are coming to the House, making | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
these claims when really what we need to do is get behind this | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
independent inquiry so that they can do the job for victims and make sure | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
we all learn what more we can do to keep children in our country safe. | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I say to the minister that it is not just | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
minister constituents who are members of the largest survivors | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
group, Shirley Oaks, over 600 members, who have said they no | :16:34. | :16:35. | |
longer have confidence in the chair of the inquiry. It is also the white | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
flowers alba group, and lawyers representing numerous other | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
survivors too. I was appalled on Friday to see in response to the | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
withdrawal of support of Shirley Oaks a suggestion that they should | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
be compelled to provide the evidence that they have gathered to this | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
inquiry. They are survivors of child abuse. These are not criminals. Can | :16:58. | :17:04. | |
I ask the minister, after millions has been spent with no public | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
cross-examination of witnesses yet, senior lawyers, the most senior | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
resigning month after month, does this not reinforce a need for a | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
change of leadership which is within the purr view of Home Office | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
ministers? We need a senior judge of High Court standing or above to lead | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
this inquiry. Why don't they act? I thank the honourable gentleman for | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
his question. He is an assiduous constituency MP. He's quite right to | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
raise concerns of the victims based in his constituency. But can I just | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
say the Prime Minister, the Home Secretary could not have made it | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
clearer about their confidence in the chairman of the Independent | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
Commission. It's really important that we carry on with the inquiry, | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
that we absolutely let them get on with their vitally important job of | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
getting to the truth and making sure that we learn the lessons to keep | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
children in our country safe. Mr Speaker, does my honourable friend | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
agree that to have any degree of public confidence, no-one should | :18:16. | :18:18. | |
pre-empt the outcome of this inquiry before it begins? I thank the my | :18:19. | :18:27. | |
honourable friend for her question. She's quite right. We set up an | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
independent inquiry so that it can get on with its work. She shaped the | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
terms of reference with the victims themselves. As we've seen from my | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
statement, they are making good progress. | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
Mr Speaker, it's a bit rich for people on that side of the House to | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
call for patience, understanding and so on. 18 years ago in this House, I | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
had to bring business to a stop for two nights running in order to get | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
allegations about child abuse in my own constituency put on the record. | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
Then the Waterhouse inquiry was set up. That took years. Then there have | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
been subsequent inquiries, one after another. Now the children in my | :19:11. | :19:18. | |
constituency, one of them committed suicide, before we ever heard any | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
results of an inquiry. So it's absolutely essential that the | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
survivors of abuse need to have the results, need to have confidence in | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
what is being done. I'm afraid, it's taken all these years in North | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
Wales, for example, for chief Superintendent Anglesey to be put on | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
trial and sentenced. Of course, that involved North Wales child abuse. | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
It's only good investigative journalism, not inquiries, that got | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
to the root of his particular case. I appeal to the minister, don't ask | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
for patience from this side. We've been patient long enough. I thank | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
the honourable lady for her question. I pay tribute to the work | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
that she has done. So assiduously campaigning for justice for her | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
constituents, but I want to reassure her and everyone here that those | :20:24. | :20:26. | |
lessons have been learned from the past. The inquiry is an incredibly | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
important part of what this Government is doing to learn the | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
lessons from the past, to make sure that we're learning and taking | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
everything that we can to keep children in our country safe. | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
Through people coming forward to the inquiry, as I said in my statement, | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
over 80 referrals a week are being made to the police, so that where | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
there is information, where there is evidence being gathered by the | :20:54. | :20:59. | |
inquiry, it is being used to seek the prosecutions, just like the lady | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
described, that absolutely need to be made. | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
This inquiry is doing incredibly important work. Does the minister | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
agree with me that the most important aspect is it is | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
independent of Government? That is the first word of its title. Does my | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
right honourable friend friend agrow therefore that the best thing we can | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
do on all sides of this House to support its work is to give it the | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
space it needs to do that work and do it independently? I'm very | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
grateful to my honourable friend for absolutely hitting the nail on the | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
head. For any of us as constituent MPs will have met people who are the | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
victims of domestic abous and violence and children involved in | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
sexual exploitation. We know how devastating this is. It's really | :21:54. | :21:56. | |
important we do everything we can to support them and encourage them to | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
come forward to the inquiry and wherever the evidence takes us, we | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
will seek those solutions and seek those prosecutions. Given it's taken | :22:06. | :22:14. | |
35 years for Gordon Anglesey to face trial at mould Crown Court where he | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
was convicted last month and sentenced to 12 years imprisonment, | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
could the minister, whilst recognising the inquiry's | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
independence, just tell the House when the first evidence sessions in | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
public are likely to be, so that my constituents and others can give | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
their evidence of that level of abuse? I thank the honourable | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
gentleman for his question. What I would say is if he has got any | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
evidence or his constituents have any evidence whatsoever, then they | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
should go to the inquiry right now. We're not waiting for the end of the | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
inquiry to take action. As I've said before, over 80 cases are sent to | :22:55. | :22:58. | |
the police every week so that action can be taken. It's really important | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
that people engage with the inquiry, support their constituents to do so, | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
so that we can seek justice for those victims. I'd like to pick up | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
On Tour a point that the minister has made -- pick up on a point that | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
the minister has made that this plays a vital part in protecting | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
vulnerable children for the present and future. Could she put the | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
inquiry into the context what have else this Government is doing. | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
He is right, this inquiry is incredibly important, but it is part | :23:27. | :23:35. | |
of a strategy where we want to do everything we can to keep children | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
in our country safe. We are seeing a record level of prosecutions and a | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
huge investments into supporting victims and really making sure that | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
we take apart the culture of secrecy and cover up, that contributed to | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
the delays that we have heard from the members of sit. -- sop sit. -- | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
opposite. After the inquiry was set up as a panel inquiry, it was turned | :24:02. | :24:10. | |
into a statutory inquiry, but wasn't the make not in setting up a royal | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
commission, as they have in Australia, that is pursuing this | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
issue and has the confidence and the interests of the victims at its | :24:21. | :24:29. | |
heart. Although royal commissions and they can be important, they tend | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
to take a long time. It was the view of the Government that than | :24:35. | :24:37. | |
independent inquiry was the best way we could learn the lessons and | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
secure the justice that the victims were looking for. Thank you. There | :24:43. | :24:48. | |
has been speculation over the weekend about the way that the | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
inquiry is taking place in Wiltshire and there is a significant risk when | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
events might have happened a long time ago and evidence is difficult | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
to corroborate and high profile figures are involved that things | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
should be left. Would she assure the House that when victims give | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
evidence, though it might be difficult to corroborate that | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
evidence and might have taken a long time ago that our chief Chief | :25:14. | :25:22. | |
Constable should go where the evidence takes them and will she | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
ensure that sufficient resources are available so that every day policing | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
is not affected. My honourable friend makes a very powerful point | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
and I can give him the assurance that he is looking for that we must | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
go where the evidence takes it and this can be you know very painful | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
for people to revisit terrible things that happened. But I will | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
encourage them, like my honourable friend pis, to come forward and, go | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
to the police, give that evidence and in terms of resources for | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
polices, it has been given, the status of one oft most important | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
police functions in our country and the police do have the resources to | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
be able to support investigations into historical sexual abuse of | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
children. Thank you Mr Speaker, there is no question on this side of | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
the House that the inquiry is independent and the inquiry must be | :26:19. | :26:21. | |
independent. But this is a question of confidence and confidence is not | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
an operational matter. And there seems to be an attempt to dismiss | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
the Shirley Oaks survivors as just one group of survivors. They | :26:31. | :26:38. | |
represent 600 survivors of abuse and have underfaken two years -- | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
undertaken two years worth of high quality research on behalf of their | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
survivors and they have powerful evidence. I have raised concerns on | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
their behalf, the member has raised concerns and the committee and those | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
concerns have not been answered. It is not good enough for the minister | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
to demand our unswerving confidence when the legitimate questions we | :27:06. | :27:07. | |
have raised have not been answered and I ask the minister again will | :27:08. | :27:14. | |
she intervene to make sure we have the confidence in this inquiry to do | :27:15. | :27:26. | |
the job it needs to do? I absolutely want to put on record that which | :27:27. | :27:35. | |
take every victim's story seriously, every vifbg Tim's voice must be | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
heard -- victim's voice must be heard. If I was to intervene it | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
would no longer be an independent inquiry. It is absolutely essential | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
that it maintains its independence. Professor Jay #45z has a long and | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
established record and did an excellent job in Rotherham F you | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
were to speak to the victims in Rotherham, you would hear the | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
confidence they placed in her and what a good job she did there. I | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
would encourage people on the other side of the House to go back to | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
their victims' organisations and encourage them to reengage with the | :28:13. | :28:19. | |
independent inquiry to reengage with the chairman, so we can move | :28:20. | :28:28. | |
forward. Thank you. I could say I don't think this has been the best | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
question from that side of the House. There has been a lot of noise | :28:32. | :28:37. | |
and not a lot of clarity from them. As they're proving at this moment in | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
time. Would the minister agree with me one of the most important things | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
is relook after potential child victims of abuse now and isn't the | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
simplest thing you, that the Government could do, would take | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
responsibility of child victim of sexual abuse, especially those | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
internally trafficked away from local government and make it an | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
independent responsibility of Home Office. Too many children are | :29:02. | :29:13. | |
retrafficked into abuse. I thank my honourable friend for his very | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
helpful question and to bring us up-to-date with the incredibly | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
important work that we are doing to make sure that we are keeping | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
children safe in our country and addressing historical issues is | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
important, but we leave no stone unturned in our determination to | :29:34. | :29:38. | |
make sure that children are safe, including those children who might | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
be trafficked, who are victims of modern slavry and we keep under | :29:44. | :29:51. | |
review our care for those children. Thank you, can I remind the minister | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
the purpose in setting up this inquiry was to find out the truth | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
and to allow the victims of child abuse to get closure. In order to do | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
that, they have to have confidence in the inquiry. If the inquiry alone | :30:05. | :30:11. | |
cannot have, command confidence, the Government does still have a role to | :30:12. | :30:19. | |
play here. She or the mopest Home -- Home Secretary should be hearing | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
from the groups and hearing their concerns, seeking their remedies, if | :30:24. | :30:26. | |
this is going to be an inquiry which does the job that we set it up for | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
in the first place. I thank the honourable gentleman for his | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
question. It is the case that we do have confidence in this inquiry. I | :30:38. | :30:43. | |
would urge everyone in the House today to get behind this inquiry to | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
make sure that it does work for victims. We have had more than 500 | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
victims come forward. That is leading to cases going forward, to | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
the police to take action. It is really important that we send out a | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
strong and united message from the House that we all think that this | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
independent inquiry is vitally important for victims and survivors | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
and we will all do our best to support their work. Thank you, over | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
a month ago when I brought up with the Home Secretary in this place the | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
loss of survivor testimonies by the independent inquiry, into child sex | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
abuse, she suggested that I engage with the inquiry in a more positive | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
manner and write to her about the incident. Since I have yet to | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
receive a response to the detailed letter I sent and as the Home | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
Secretary is not here today herself, could the minister answering perhaps | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
up the House now as to what investigation has since taken place | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
over these lost testimonies? I thank the honourable lady for her | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
question. What I will agree to do today is to make sure she does get a | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
response to her letter and the details that concerns that she has | :32:05. | :32:16. | |
raised. There is never been an official Welsh representative on the | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
inquiry, despite appeals from the Social Services minister. | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
Considering this is an England and Wales inquiry, will the minister | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
give assurance there are open lines of communication with the Welsh | :32:33. | :32:36. | |
Government so this can be discussed and that the interests of Welsh | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
victims are adequately protected. Thank you. Of course, it is | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
important that people living in Wales, as it is vietdally important | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
for - vitally important for other people, they have the opportunity | :32:53. | :32:58. | |
for their voices to be heard. Its an independent inquiry, so I ask the | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
the honourable lady makes the representations to professor Jay so | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
make sure she is satisfied the victims in Wales feel they're being | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
listened to. For years I worked supporting victim of sex abuse, it | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
is clear to everyone in this House that the seemingly endless cover ups | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
and delays will be frau Mattick for the victims. -- traumatic for the | :33:25. | :33:33. | |
survivors. How will she restore trust in the rink I. She is drawing | :33:34. | :33:39. | |
on her personal experience and I'm sure she made a huge contribution | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
before she came to the House and working with those victims. It is | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
true, some will look at what is going on and they will feel | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
disappointed. But we are committed to see this inquiry through. And | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
support the chair in professor Jay and believe she is the person to see | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
this through. I would encourage her to speak to victim and give her the | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
assurances that it is a priority for the government and we will support | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
the independent ink Troy do its job -- inquiry to do its job, so victims | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
have the justice they they're seeking. Thank you. In North Wales | :34:21. | :34:30. | |
where many offences of child sexual... In North Wales where many | :34:31. | :34:38. | |
offences of child sexual abuse took place, there is extreme scepticism | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
about the commitment of this Government to openness in these | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
matters. Because the review which reported recently redacted names of | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
people in positions of responsibility, some of whom were | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
member of this House, as a result of continuing court proceedings. We now | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
know that Gordon Anglesey has been convicted, so if the minister is | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
committed to openness, would she go back to the Ministry of Justice and | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
ask them to revisit the review and to make open those redacted names to | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
make clear that there is openness income support inquiry and that | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
following the conviction for vile crimes of child sexual abuse, those | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
responsible will be openly put for consideration as part of reports | :35:32. | :35:37. | |
issued by this government. The honourable gentleman makes the point | :35:38. | :35:41. | |
that there are concerns about a lack of openness and transparency, which | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
is something I simply do not accept. This government has done more than | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
any other government to make people accountable to be more transparent, | :35:53. | :35:57. | |
to open up processes. To make those in authority accountable for those | :35:58. | :36:03. | |
action. The question that you're asking is about a specific case and | :36:04. | :36:06. | |
it would be inappropriate for me to comment on a case that is going | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
through the courts. I have confidence in our criminal justice | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
system. Absolute confidence in the criminal justice tice system of our | :36:18. | :36:25. | |
count are and the matters should be raised with the justice system. I | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
should point out that I wasn't asking any question as the chair | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
does not do so and not withstanding the frustration of the honourable | :36:36. | :36:43. | |
gentleman, the member for Wrexham, that these matters will be returned | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
to on the floor of House, possibly on imnewspaper rabble occasions o' | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
-- innumerable occasions and the honourable lady will seek to | :36:54. | :36:57. | |
respond. The matter will go on and on I feel sure of that. Order. The | :36:58. | :37:04. | |
clerk will read the orders of the day. Hire education and research | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
bill as amended in the public bill committee to be considered. Thank | :37:11. | :37:18. | |
you. We begin with government new clause 1, with which it will be | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
convenient to consider the other new clauses and amendments grouped | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
together on the sleshgs paper. -- selection paper. Members will note | :37:29. | :37:35. | |
that I have selected some starred amendments. I have done so in the | :37:36. | :37:42. | |
circumstances applying to this particular bill and the honourable | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
gentleman the member for Southport will be conversant with the issues. | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
As the deadline for tabling amendments had passed when the | :37:55. | :37:57. | |
business for today was announced last week. In those circumstances it | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
is sensible and helpful to the House to proceed in this way. I call the | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
minister to move, the minister for higher education. | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
I beg to move that the clause be read a second time. Mr Speaker, new | :38:15. | :38:20. | |
clause one relates to the office for stupts which is central to this bill | :38:21. | :38:26. | |
and will have quality student choice, quality for opportunity and | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
value for money at its core. Through the creation of the independent | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
office for students, this bill will join up the currently fragmented | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
regulation of the sector, essential to ensure that students are | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
protected and that students and the taxpayer receive good value for | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
money from the system. The bill will provide opportunity for all. It will | :38:48. | :38:56. | |
drive up quality and capacity in the sector. It will create UK research | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
and innovation, a new body, with strategic vision for research and | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
innovation in the UKment I'm pleased this bill receives such thorough | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
scrutiny during the committee stage. I have reflected on the points that | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
have been made by members on the opposite benches and I'm pleased to | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
present important maements today. We made -- amendments today. We made | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
clear in the white paper that the OFS will have the spont for | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
oversight of the financial health of the sector and monitor the | :39:27. | :39:28. | |
sustainability of individual institutions. It is absolutely | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
essential that all providers eligible to receive some form of | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
public funding have sustainable finances to provide value. We have | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
listened to stake holder evidence and debates in committee. Stake hold | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
consider the Higher Education Funding Council for England's | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
holistic oversight of the sector to be an essential part of the | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
regulator's role. I understand the importance of this oversight in | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
maintaining confidence in the sector and preserving its world-class | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
reputation. I share the desire to make our policy intention no the | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
white paper explicit in legislation. Let me be clear, I will shortly. | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
This role will include financial oversight of all the institutions | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
activities spanning teaching and research. I thank him very much for | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
giving way. I understand the need for monitoring the financial | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
sustainability of organisations, but what the clause does not say is what | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
actions will result if somebody is found to be financially | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
unsustainable. Would he like to comment on that? The duty of the | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
office for students will be tone sure that it is monitoring | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
effectively the overall financial health of the sector in such a way | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
it's able to inform the Secretary of State so that the Government can | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
take appropriate actions. It will not be the role for the office of | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
students to bail out struggling institutions, if there are any such | :40:55. | :40:58. | |
institutions. These are private and autonomous bodies. It is important | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
that there is the discipline of the marketplace acting upon them. It | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
will be the role of the OFS to assist them in transitioning towards | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
viable business plans so that they can continue to provide high quality | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
education to their students in the medium and long-term. New clause one | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
introduces a statutory unity for the OFS to monitor and report on the | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
financial sustainability of all registered providers in England, | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
which are in receipt of or eligible for OFS funding or tuition fee | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
loans. I give way. Will the regulator also ensure and does he | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
have the powers to ensure that there's good industrial relations | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
within our universities, because there is certainly a problem at | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
Coventry University in relation to industrial relations, particularly | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
with subcontractors. Again, higher education institutions are private | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
and autonomous bodies, which are self-organising. It's important that | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
of course, they look to provide a framework of governance that enables | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
students to learn well. That will include a healthy dialogue with | :42:11. | :42:16. | |
their staff and employees. It's not for Government to mandate particular | :42:17. | :42:20. | |
forms of revelations given that they are private and autonomous | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
institutions. In performing this role, the OFS will have a clear | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
picture of the number of international students and the | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
income that they bring, just as HEFKE currently does. I do not agrow | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
with the need for additional duty for the OFS to report on | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
international students as amendment 52 and new clause nine tabled by the | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
honourable member for Southport would require. I simply do not | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
believe that this bill is the appropriate vehicle for | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
commissioning research into post-work study as proposed by the | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
honourable members for Glasgow North West and Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath. | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
The bill is focussed on creating the necessary structures to oversee | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
research funding for many years to come and a short-term piece of | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
research on an element of migration policy is not consistent with the | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
scope and functions. I'm grateful to the minister for giving way. He's | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
clearly of the view that this bill isn't the right vehicle for the | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
issues that are under consideration. But does he understand why members | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
would pick this vehicle? His department understands the important | :43:30. | :43:32. | |
of international students to the UK higher education. The Treasury | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
understands the role of international students. Why doesn't | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
the Home Office and Prime Minister? Does he not realise like him we'll | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
be banging our heads against a brick wall at the Home Office? The Home | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
Secretary has set out that we will be consulting in coming weeks on a | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
non-EEA migration route that will be of benefit to international students | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
wanting to come and study at our world class institutions. I'd | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
encourage the honourable member to wait until we see the detail of that | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
consultation before jumping to clon collusions. Thank you very much for | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
giving way. The minister said just an element, this post study work | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
visa is not just an element of concern to the universities in | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
Scotland, it is of major concern, particularly since what has been set | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
up by the Home Office is a tiny and completely unrepresentative pilot. | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
This is a matter of great importance to the university sector. Indeed. | :44:28. | :44:35. | |
The Government is fully in agreement with the honourable member, the | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
international students bring a lot to our higher education system. They | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
bring benefits to our universities, income, valued Diversity and other | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
benefits. We welcome them and we have a warm and welcoming regime to | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
accommodate them. I turn to Government amendments one, 12 and | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
13. Academic freedom and institutional autonomy are key | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
stones of our system. The bill introduces new and additional | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
protections in this area. That's where the vice Chancellor of | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
Cambridge, for example, said in his evidence to our bill committee that | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
he particularly liked the implicit and explicit recognition of autonomy | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
in the bill. But I want to be slum clear -- absolutely clear about how | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
important it is for this Government to protect institutional autonomy. | :45:21. | :45:25. | |
I've proposed this further group of amendments to strengthen these | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
protections even more. I recognise the concerns expressed in committee | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
and in stake hold evidence that allowing the Secretary of State to | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
give guidance relating to particular courses might be perceived as | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
leaving the door open to guidance which calls specifically for the | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
opening or closing of particular courses. One of the real strengths | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
of our system is the Diversity that exists and the ability of | :45:50. | :45:57. | |
institutions to determine their own mission. To avoid confusion about | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
this, I'm proposing these amendments to add an additional layer of | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
reassurance regarding the protections given for institutional | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
autonomy. They make clear that the Secretary of State cannot give | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
guidance to or impose terms or conditions or directions on the OFS | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
which require it to make providers offer or stop offer particular | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
courses. Turning to amendment 21. Our reforms place students at the | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
heart of higher education regulation. I agree with members | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
opposite that it is important to build the student perspective into | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
the OFS. This amendment clarifies beyond doubt that at least one | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
member of the OFS board must have experience of representing or | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
promoting the interests of individual students or students | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
generally. The party opposite has tabled amendments 36 and 48, which | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
relate to HE staff representation. We share the view that the OFS board | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
should benefit from the experience of HE staff, however the bill | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
already requires the Secretary of State to have regard to appointing | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
board members with experience of the broad range of different types of | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
English providers in the sector. We're therefore confident that a | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
number of OFS board members will be or will have been employed by HE | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
providers. We don't believe we need an additional requirement in | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
legislation on that points. Students make significant investment in their | :47:15. | :47:17. | |
higher educational choices. It's right students should be aware what | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
should happen if their institution were to close. That's what the | :47:22. | :47:24. | |
Government amendment four will achieve. We expect all providers to | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
make contingency plans to guard against the risk that courses cannot | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
be delivered as agreed. The requirement to provide student | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
protection plans would be a condition of reg slacks. -- | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
registration. I have reflected on the need to strengthen the power of | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
the OFS to ensure transparency. That is what this amendment does. It | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
enables the OFS to require providers not only to develop student | :47:52. | :47:53. | |
protection plans but to publish them. We would expect providers to | :47:54. | :47:56. | |
bring them to the attention of students. This bill, Mr Speaker, | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
believes in opportunities for all and through this bill, we are | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
delivering on this. The Government believes in that and through this | :48:04. | :48:05. | |
bill we're delivering on that objective. We believe the | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
transparency is one of the best tools we have when it comes to | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
widening participation. Universities have made progress, but the | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
transparency duty will shine a spotlight on those institutions | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
which need to go further. That's why I'm pleased to propose amendments | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
two and three, which change the language in the bill to make clearer | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
that the OFS can ask HE providers to publish and share with the OFS the | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
number of applications, offers, acceptances and completion rates for | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
students. Each broken do you by ethnicity, gender and socio-economic | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
background. Mr Speaker, this bill will give the office of students the | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
power to operate the teaching excellence framework. 30 years of | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
the ref and its predecessors have made the UK's research the envy of | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
the world. Without an equivalent focus on excellence in teaching, the | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
incentives upon universities have become distorted. Although - yeah, | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
sure. I thank the minister for giving way. He mentioned the TET and | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
REF before it, would he not agree with me the REF took several years | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
to bed down and become a measure of research. The TEF there are lots of | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
institutions who feel this is being rushed through in particular the | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
link between teaching excellence and fees. I've been e mailed by | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
University of west London who have asked me to strongly oppose that. | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
It's done on institution by institution basis, not like REF, | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
which was done by department. Would he not think again in relation to | :49:35. | :49:40. | |
those points? On the point, the TEF has not been rushed. It's been | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
piloted for two years. Differentisation on the basis, from | :49:48. | :49:54. | |
the 1920 academic year that's a significant period of time to bed, | :49:55. | :50:04. | |
the academic year 2019/20. There is recognition that we need to fund on | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
the basis of quality as well as quantity. There is no attempt by the | :50:09. | :50:15. | |
sector to separate the link as the honourable member suggests. New | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
clause 12, yeah. I applaud the minister's view that we should be | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
focussing very much on quality in this area rather than just the | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
volume operation, which I think has been one of the problems that has | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
beset the higher education sector over the last 20 or so years. Could | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
I ask the office for students that is being proposed here, is there any | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
international parallel? Does such a body exist in Canada, Australia, in | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
other big, international, global higher education sectors or are we | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
take a lead? Is there a sense we are following elements of what has | :50:50. | :50:54. | |
happened elsewhere? I thank the honourable member for his help and | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
intervention. We've studied regulatory systems around the world | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
in drawing up our proposals for the office for students. Our system is | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
in line with several in the anglophone countries, moving to a | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
market based system, in which the student is the primary funder of his | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
or her higher educational experience. Therefore it's incumbent | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
on us to put in place a system of regulation that recognises that | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
we're moving away from a classic funded model of regulation which we | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
have in place through the 1992 act that created the Higher Education | :51:30. | :51:33. | |
Funding Council for England. New clause 12 and amendment 47 seem to | :51:34. | :51:42. | |
misunderstand the same of the TEF. Changing the ratings would | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
fundamentally undermine the purpose of the TEF by preventing students to | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
be able to determine which providers are offering the best teaching. | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
Amendments 46 and 47 would stifle the healthy development of the TEF. | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
Amendment 50 ignores the reasoned and consult Tative approach we've | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
taken and will continue to make. Mr Deputy Speaker, let me set out my | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
reasons why amendments tabled from the benches opposite on our plans of | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
awarding powers are unnecessary, namely new clauses four and seven | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
and amendments 40 and 41. Our reforms will ensure students can | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
choose from a wider range of high quality institutions. If the higher | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
education provider can demonstrate their ability to deliver high | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
quality provision, we want to make it easier for them to award their | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
own degrees, rather than needing to have degrees for its course as | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
warded by a competing incumbent. We intend to keep the process arounds | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
scrutiny of applications for degree awarding powers, which have worked | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
well so far, broadly as they are. That includes retaining an element | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
of independent peer review for degree awarding powers applications, | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
setting this out in legislation as new clause four suggests, would tie | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
this to a static process which would be inflexible. We intend to consult | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
on detailed circumstances where degree awarding powers and | :53:03. | :53:05. | |
university title might be revoked, including changes of ownership and | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
so there is no need for new clause seven. As for amendments 40 and 41, | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
I can reassure members that we will, as now, ensure that the very high | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
standards that providers must meet to make such awards will be | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
maintained. We are streamlining processes not lower standards. These | :53:24. | :53:25. | |
amendments are therefore unnecessary. The honourable member | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
for City of Durham proposed amendment 58 on the criteria for | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
what an institution should demonstrate in order to be granted | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
university title. None of these are currents criteria. Like now, we | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
intend to set out detailed cies tiara and processes for gaining | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
university title in guidance and not in legislation. Mr Deputy Speaker, | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
this group also includes some technical amendments to ensure the | :53:50. | :53:52. | |
legislation delivers the policy intent set out in our white paper. I | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
know that members on the benches opposite will be keen to talk about | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
amendments that they have tabled in this group. I look forward to | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
responding to further points that are raised. I therefore beg to move | :54:03. | :54:05. | |
new clause one. Duty to monitor and report on | :54:06. | :54:21. | |
financial sustainability. Read for the second time. Thank you very much | :54:22. | :54:29. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker. I am raising to speak about clause seven, and | :54:30. | :54:36. | |
Amendment 50, in my name. Both of these cover ground that we have | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
discussed in some ways at committee. I will make reference to those | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
points and then talk about Amendment 40 nine. Clause number seven | :54:45. | :54:53. | |
provides for automatic review of degree awarding powers, when | :54:54. | :54:59. | |
ownership over university changes. This is the sort of system that the | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
minister is seeking to create that the United States, where we do know | :55:04. | :55:10. | |
that we have had a number of examples of institutions which had a | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
reasonably well-established reputation changing ownership and | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
fundamentally changing the product delivered to students. We need to | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
learn from the mistakes that were made at the united states by | :55:26. | :55:27. | |
ensuring that we do not find ourselves in this terrain, when | :55:28. | :55:36. | |
ownership changes that should automatically trigger a review of | :55:37. | :55:43. | |
the status. I would welcome some reassurance from the Minister about | :55:44. | :55:51. | |
how he intends, if not through this clause, how he intends to deal with | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
this issue otherwise we could find ourselves in the same situation, not | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
having the reputation of the sector damaged but also students being let | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
down. And also let down, carrying with them fee debts. It is an issue | :56:07. | :56:15. | |
that we need clarification on. Amendment 51 covers terrain that I | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
have discussed with the Minister on several occasions, seeking to | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
require universities to introduce integrated student enrolment system | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
with regards to registration. That is recommended by universities UK, | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
supported by the Cabinet office and was originally piloted by the | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
University of Sheffield. Successfully. We have a common | :56:42. | :56:50. | |
objective of trying to improve the levels of voter registration for | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
students, this is demonstrated by successful, not just at Sheffield | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
with support of the Cabinet office but also Cardiff, has gone on to | :57:00. | :57:09. | |
introduce it. It seems like a good opportunity as we are looking at the | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
registration requirements of universities to roll it out across | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
the country to achieve the objectives that we both share. I | :57:19. | :57:27. | |
have discussed this with ministers from the Cabinet office, we were | :57:28. | :57:30. | |
going to have a round table but that has been kicked into long grass, to | :57:31. | :57:39. | |
the new year. That is what I was told. I want to know why we cannot | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
simply use this opportunity to get this matter sorted out. Amendment 50 | :57:44. | :57:53. | |
reflects concern about the reliability of the metrics, seeking | :57:54. | :58:02. | |
excellence, and we all welcome the government for free as an teaching | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
excellence. The principle of the teaching excellence framework is | :58:09. | :58:10. | |
something that we can work effectively on. But the metrics that | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
have been identified have been rated government itself as a proxy 40 | :58:17. | :58:25. | |
Ching excellence, employment outcome, retention and the National | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
student satisfaction survey. All that this amendment is seeking to | :58:31. | :58:38. | |
do, bring to the face of the bill the unanimous recommendation of the | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
select committee. When we looked at that, as a member, and I am no | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
longer one, simply we should have a requirement that the metrics that | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
the government uses to determine teaching quality have a demonstrable | :58:56. | :59:03. | |
link to teaching excellence. We can all agree, employment outcomes does | :59:04. | :59:11. | |
not necessarily demonstrate teaching excellence, regional the regions in | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
terms of excellence and salary levels. The Minister will know if | :59:15. | :59:26. | |
you come from the right family, right school, right | :59:27. | :59:27. | |
uni, you can have an awful teaching experience but still get that | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
perfect job. Conversely, people who do not come from the right family, | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
do not necessarily go to what would be seen by many as the correct | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
university but could get a fantastic teaching experience. It is crude but | :59:46. | :59:52. | |
converse proxy measure. I would again welcome the minister's | :59:53. | :00:00. | |
observations on why the single Amendment, saying we must have a | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
demonstrable link between masers used and teaching excellence does | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
not actually strengthen the bill. Give way? I thank my right | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
honourable friend for giving way. Does he mean the teaching | :00:18. | :00:25. | |
experience, qualifications of lecturers who partake with certain | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
courses, what does he have remained with regards to proving that you | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
have got teaching quality there? I thank the right honourable member | :00:35. | :00:36. | |
for his intervention. Measuring teaching quality is a difficult | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
thing to do that if we are going to do that, and link fee increases, we | :00:42. | :00:50. | |
ought to do it well. At the moment, the Higher Education Funding Council | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
have been piloting work on value added. How you can demonstrate that | :00:56. | :01:06. | |
during the period of study, student learning outcomes have been | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
contributed by good teaching. That sort of thing is what we should be | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
looking at before rushing into the teaching excellence framework, that | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
could end up measuring anything other than teaching excellence. | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
Thank you very much for giving way. Would the right honourable member | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
agree with Professor Jack, when he recently stated that teaching | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
excellence framework measures wanted measures but it does not measure the | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
quality of teaching excellence? I thank the right honourable member | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
for his intervention. And he has expressed my concerns. It is the | :01:42. | :01:48. | |
reason for this amendment. It would seem that there should be agreement | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
across the house that if we are to have this teaching excellence | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
framework, it should measure the quality of teaching. That does not | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
seem controversial to me. I was disappointed that the government was | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
not able to accept this unanimous recommendation from the Business | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
Select Committee, and I want to push the Minister further on his | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
reasoning for that. If I could then move to Amendment 40 nine. That | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
raises new concerns, and it will be became clear as this bill progressed | :02:22. | :02:30. | |
through the committee. That is the government's apparent intention, and | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
I recognise it may not be the wish of the Minister, but the | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
government's intention to link the visa regime for international | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
students to quality measures. In international context, I think | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
members on both sides of the house are going to share concern... | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
International students, and I am sure the Minister is going to agree, | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
have been hugely beneficial to this country and universities. They | :03:02. | :03:08. | |
enrich the learning environment on campus. We need to understand each | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
other better than ever, and it is a huge advantage for British students | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
to be learning alongside those from around the world in classrooms and | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
laboratories. International students have been adding hugely to the | :03:23. | :03:25. | |
research capacities, strengthening local businesses as I know from | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
Sheffield. And add to that the lasting relationships with those who | :03:32. | :03:44. | |
study here. It is the envy of other countries. Give way? Thank you. I am | :03:45. | :04:00. | |
loathed to interrupt. Because he was making a powerful point. But this | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
was conceived before Brexit and things have changed. I have had | :04:06. | :04:16. | |
e-mails, I am hearing this entire thing should be scrapped because | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
everything has changed for higher education since the decision on June | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
23? I thank my right honourable friend for that intervention. And | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
they look forward to joining her at Westminster. She needs is valuable | :04:32. | :04:42. | |
point. -- makes this. This was a pre Brexit vision and should have been | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
rethought because of the decision on June 23, the challenge facing | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
universities is fundamentally different. And enormous proportions. | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
We need to look at these proposals again. I thank my right honourable | :04:57. | :05:07. | |
friend for giving way. On that point, many mainland European | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
universities are offering courses in English, the fact that we are going | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
to be leaving the European Union is going to significantly disadvantage | :05:19. | :05:20. | |
British universities from gaining those foreign students because the | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
languages and degrees offered at some European countries are in | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
English, not necessarily French, German, native languages. I thank my | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
right honourable friend for that intervention, highlighting the new | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
challenges facing British universities since Brexit. We now | :05:44. | :05:53. | |
face the situation in which 185,000 of the 500,000 international | :05:54. | :05:56. | |
students, from European Union countries may no longer be choosing | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
to come here. But this is the crucial point in relation to his | :06:01. | :06:09. | |
intervention, of those non EU students polled before June 23, 33% | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
said that the United Kingdom would be less attractive if we chose to | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
leave the European Union. And on that point, the competitors at | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
Europe have been adding to the competitiveness that we already get | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
from Australia and the United States have been seizing the opportunity to | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
teach English language courses. That is going to be attractive. I thank | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
my right honourable friend for giving way. I have got to | :06:37. | :06:43. | |
universities at Coventry. One of the concerns is as a result of Brexit, | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
students from countries like India and possibly others are now going to | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
be looking at North America, choosing to go there. Because of the | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
difficulty that they have coming to this country. Treated as immigrants. | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
They should be taken out of the immigration figures. The benefit | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
that we get, just under 10 billion. I hope that the government is going | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
to take this seriously. It is one thing to comment and ask a question, | :07:21. | :07:24. | |
it is another to stretch into a speech. This is becoming Brexit | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
argument and debate. But you been with these interventions. Thank you | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
very much Mr Deputy Speaker. And they appreciate the intervention of | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
my right honourable friend, making this point strongly in relation to | :07:42. | :07:49. | |
international students. It is correct. Many universities across | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
the country are going to be in crisis, if we see a significant drop | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
in the number of international students. That would only be a drop | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
in the income, but it would mean that many postgraduate courses that | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
are only viable because of the levels of income that have been | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
brought from international students would cease to be viable, cease to | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
exist and available to United Kingdom students. It is a hugely | :08:17. | :08:18. | |
important issue. He will know that I entirely accept | :08:19. | :08:27. | |
his last point about a number of these post graduate courses. | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
However, would he also accept that whilst in an ideal world, as he | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
knows, I would not have students in the immigration figures, but we are | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
where we r, they are going to remain in the immigration figures. One of | :08:41. | :08:44. | |
the lessons of Brexit surely is that this issue is a massive concern to | :08:45. | :08:51. | |
many of our fellow countrymen. Therefore, it is surely incumbent | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
upon universities to ensure that we get high quality students coming | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
from abroad. That is really the focus of what I think the Government | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
are trying to achieve here, that we do ensure that those students who | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
come here come here because they are going to be the creme de la creme, | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
are going to add the sort of experience to UK nationals to which | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
he has referred earlier in his contribution. But also, that we will | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
have a group of students here that will command the confidence of the | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
public that we are getting only the brightest and best rather than a | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
volume operation in our universities. I thank the honourable | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
member for his intervention. He and I have worked closely on a number of | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
these issues. We do agree that international students should be | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
taken out of net migration figures, targets. But on this point that he | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
raises here, I would disagree because I know that we would come | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
together in saying that our universities are a great British | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
export industry. But I'm genuinely puzzled why the Government doesn't | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
see them as an industry in other terms. We don't put in measures to | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
seek to discourage the automobile industry from selling cars. We try | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
to encourage them to sell more cars. Similarly on the point he raises, we | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
don't say well we just want you to sell rolls roses, we don't want you | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
to sell Minis. It is a nonsense economically for the our country and | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
the local economies that we all represent. Here is the nub of the | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
problem. He talks about the way that these issues are viewed by the | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
public. International students are not viewed bit public -- by the | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
public as a threat or as an issue that the Government ought to be | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
taking action on. A recent poll showed that 75% of people wanted to | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
see the numbers of international students either stay the same or go | :10:50. | :10:57. | |
up. But the Government strategy as he will know is moving us in the | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
other direction. The Home Secretary, albeit I think against her will, | :11:03. | :11:09. | |
made a speech at Conservative Party Conference in which she put | :11:10. | :11:12. | |
international students and I'm sure the honourable member will agree | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
with me, wrongly at the centre of her plans to cut migration. She | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
introduced this new tool to which he's alluded with which she planned | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
to do it, linking visa approval to the quality of courses. We need to | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
reflect on that, Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a very significant development | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
firstly in terms of having a policy objective of reducing international | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
students. The Government did it by default in the last Parliament. I | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
will. The honourable member wants to remind himself that international | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
student applications went up 14%. I'd be interested for the minister | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
to intervene on me again and say over what period. He will know that | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
broadly speaking over the period of the last Parliament they flat lined | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
and we lost market share. Since 2010. I think we'll probably | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
disagree on those figures. I think I've heard the minister say | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
previously and certainly if not him his predecessor and previous | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
immigration ministers that actually there was no damage by the measures | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
taken place in the last Parliament because numbers flat lined. Now from | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
my point of view, flatlining in a growing market is a defeat. We | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
wouldn't say the world is buying more cars, buy an extra 30% and the | :12:41. | :12:45. | |
great news is our exports are flatlining. It doesn't make sense. | :12:46. | :12:54. | |
But he will agree with me that, I'm sure, that international students | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
are an extremely good thing for our economy. Therefore it's deeply | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
worrying that the Home Secretary put at the centrepiece of her plans to | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
cut migration international students. I will indeed. Grateful to | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
my honourable friend for giving way. I strong lay grow with everything | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
he's saying in his speech. Can he imagine a scenario where higher | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
education institutions are recruiting onto courses, UK students | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
onto their courses but sending a message to other people overseas | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
that the course isn't good enough for them. If it's not good enough | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
for international students, surely it's not good enough for home | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
students? My honourable friend makes the point that I was coming straight | :13:41. | :13:46. | |
onto. If we were to be looking at a teaching excellence framework in | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
parallel with competitors around the world, if we are together saying | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
that we think the world market in international education needs this | :13:56. | :14:00. | |
sort of tool, and that in that world market it would be helpful to have | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
gold, silver and bronze institution that's would be -- that would be one | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
thing. For us to be unilaterally declaring to the world that we are | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
differentiating our institutions and saying that a good two thirds of | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
them perhaps are less good than others, I don't see how that can do | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
anything other than damage our ability to recruit international | :14:22. | :14:24. | |
students, to earn the money that we do from them and the support and | :14:25. | :14:28. | |
jobs that means for our local economies. I will give way. I'm very | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
grateful indeed. Would the honourable gentleman agrow with me, | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
it's not just representational damage at home. It might have quons | :14:37. | :14:42. | |
constituencies abroad -- consequence as broad. My own university of | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
Bangor takes a number of Chinese students. But then we have a site in | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
China as well. There would be a reputational damage of that sort as | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
well. Yes, I thank the honourable member for his intervention. It | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
isn't simply student recruitment, it is the brand strength of UK | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
universities, which is extraordinarily high, which is put | :15:06. | :15:12. | |
at risk by this measure. So last week, in Westminster Hall, I sought | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
assurances from the Immigration Minister on whether it is the Home | :15:18. | :15:25. | |
Office's intention to use the teaching excellence framework | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
measurement of quality as a basis for their visa regime and for trying | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
to cut down the number of international students. I got no | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
reassurance. I gave him a couple of opportunities to say that they | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
weren't intending to use the TEF and he failed to do so. So, this | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
amendment says that until we are absolutely clear on the Government's | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
intention in relation to different shacks by gold, silver, bronze, and | :15:55. | :16:13. | |
we should not seek to have the teaching framework in this way we | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
should simply have a meeting expectations or not meeting | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
expectations. I accept it's not the minister's intention to damage our | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
universities by the introduction of this but it could be the unintended | :16:29. | :16:36. | |
reaction by the Home Office. These are challenging times for our | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
country. Charting our post Brexit place in the world is going to be a | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
big job. We need to win friends not alienate them. The Prime Ministerial | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
trade mission to India recently demonstrated that many of those | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
friends will put access to our universities at the heart of any | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
discussion on our future relationship even on the issue of | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
trade. We won't be able to separate those. So we can't afford to be | :17:05. | :17:12. | |
putting the sector, the export earnings we get from international | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
students at risk in this way. I'd therefore ask the minister on this | :17:18. | :17:27. | |
issue to think again. I rise to move new clause 14 post | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
study work visa evaluation. I reserve the right to push this to a | :17:34. | :17:37. | |
vote later on, if required. The SNP are continuing to press for a | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
reintroduction of the post study work visa. This amendment ensures an | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
evaluation of how absence of this key visa has affected the UK economy | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
and how a new visa may be implemented in future. The post | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
study work visa, as we've heard already, is an important lever for | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
attracting the best international student talent. There's consensus in | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
Scotland amongst business, education and every political party | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
represented at Holyrood that we need a return of the post study route to | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
allow these talented students to remain and contribute to Scottish | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
economy. The outcome of the EU referendum makes it even more | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
important that the UK Government honours the recommendation in the | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
Smith report to explore a potential post-study work route to ensure | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
Scotland continues to attract and retain talent from around the world. | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
But the longer we wait for the Government to move on this, the more | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
damage has been done both socially and economically. The current | :18:46. | :18:48. | |
post-study work offer is not adequate for Scotland. We've offered | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
to discuss the reasons behind it with UK ministers and Home Office | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
officials, but disappointingly, UK ministers appear to rule out a | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
return of the post-study work visa without meeting with Scottish | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
ministers or the cross-party steering group that's been set up at | :19:08. | :19:14. | |
Holyrood. The current immigration policy poses a significant risk to | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
Scottish universities. Data published in January shows that | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
Scotland has seen a 2% increase in international entrants in the | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
academic year 2014/15, compared to previous year. On the face of it | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
that may appear positive, however by comparison during the period 2013/14 | :19:37. | :19:44. | |
to 14/15 the number of international students entering higher education | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
in the United States has increased by 10%. So rather than being able to | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
take advantage of this growth sector, and actually use it for | :19:56. | :20:01. | |
economic growth locally, we're expected to remain stagnant, which | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
is simply not good enough. The Home Office released details of a low | :20:08. | :20:15. | |
risk tier four pilot in July of this year, which was welcomed, maybe | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
welcomed is not the correct word - viewed with some interest, but we're | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
troubled that it was introduced without any consultation with | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
Scottish Government, Scottish institutions or indeed institutions | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
from across the UK. Universities Scotland have said, "We're | :20:38. | :20:39. | |
disappointed that the opportunity of the pilot has been framed so | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
narrowly to only four universities, none of which are in Scotland." We'd | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
argue a broader pilot involving a wider group of institution would | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
have provided more meaningful lessons from which to build. I thank | :20:54. | :21:01. | |
the honourable lady for giving way. I understand, she's made a strong | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
case for why she feels the post study work visas should be | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
reintroduced. Would she accept that one of the main reasons that there | :21:10. | :21:14. | |
is a clamp down from the UK Government is because a number of | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
people come in on these visas and then similarly go to ground and | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
cannot be removed from this country, when they are only due to be here on | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
a student visa. Would she in making the case that these visas be | :21:31. | :21:37. | |
reintroduced also tell us a bit about the further obligations she | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
thinks should be on the granting of the visas from those universities | :21:41. | :21:45. | |
that grant the visa. They can't simply get students in, take the | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
money and wash their hands of any responsibility going forward, surely | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
not? I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention. | :21:53. | :22:01. | |
Firstly, there was a situation in the past where certain rogue | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
institutions, particularly rogue and private FE colleges were not | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
complying with visa regulations, but there is little evidence that the HE | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
institutions we're talking about in this bill have any record of | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
noncompliance, so I do not accept the points that the gentleman's | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
making. I'll give way. Will the honourable member accept that last | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
week at the Westminster debate I specifically challenged the Home | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
Office minister to name any institutions in Scotland that could | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
be said to fall into the kind of behavioural category that the | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
honourable member on the opposite benches suggested. He said he | :22:48. | :22:57. | |
couldn't name one. The 19 higher education institutes in Scotland | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
have a strong record in attracting international students and a strong | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
record of compliance. So I agree 100% with my honourable friend. I | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
thank the honourable lady for giving way. Some of the issues the | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
honourable lady's mentioned, the Scottish Select Committee has been | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
looking at. There is evidence of a need for the Government to look at | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
the Scottish situation differently from the rest of the country, | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
because one of the things we did come across when we looked at this | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
was you've got to remember that Scotland's got a declining | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
population, so it's got to find an anchor to keep people in Scotland to | :23:38. | :23:39. | |
develop the Scottish economy. I thank the right honourable | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
gentleman for his intervention and it is well documented that in | :23:49. | :23:57. | |
Scotland, the issue is emigration, not immigration, this is going to be | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
a key trigger and would make a massive difference to the local | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
economy. I have given way enough. The principal of Edinburgh | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
University addressed the Scottish affairs committee and has warned | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
that future restrictions on free movement would have a damaging | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
impact on the sector. He said yesterday that the Prime Minister | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
said helpfully that the special relationship could be needed for | :24:27. | :24:38. | |
workers in the city for the car industry, if the car industry | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
deserves this special deal, then universities, also. As we move | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
towards Brexit, we have the potential of much wider pool of | :24:49. | :24:57. | |
international students who may want to study at our universities. I | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
think we have got to think seriously about visa, we have a situation of | :25:05. | :25:16. | |
Ireland. 1949, stated as not being a foreign country. What special | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
arrangements are going to be in place for Irish students who want to | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
come and study at our institutions. I am going to move on briefly. I | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
couple of amendments that have been launched by the right honourable | :25:32. | :25:41. | |
member, looking at concerns with the proposed metrics within the teaching | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
excellence framework. Much discussion about the metrics and we | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
have already been listening to the right honourable member about some | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
concerns on these. And how the metrics being used are not an | :25:58. | :25:59. | |
indication of the quality of teaching. We mentioned at the | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
committee about the Scottish enhancement approach, far more | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
thorough and possibly a better method of determining quality. | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
However, it seems that we are pushing ahead with the metrics | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
proposed by the government. We are happy to support the amendments | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
launched by the Labour benches. Amendment 51, required an automatic | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
voter registration at universities looks like an extremely innovative | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
idea, and for once I have to admit that has not come from Scotland. But | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
this could be an amendment that we in Scotland could start looking at | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
and consider. We will look to that as well. I know that we are short of | :26:48. | :26:56. | |
time. And we have got amendments, later on, that we want to push so I | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
am going to conclude by say that we are going to support the amendment | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
is mentioned and I hope we can have some movement on new clause 14. | :27:08. | :27:16. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to speak to new clause 16, drawing | :27:17. | :27:28. | |
on some of the points that my right honourable friend has made about | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
amendment 40 nine. What new clause 16 is looking to do, remove students | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
from the net migration figures. It is going to be interesting to hear | :27:41. | :27:47. | |
from the Minister, if this is something that the government has on | :27:48. | :27:54. | |
the agenda. And also, in passing, want to comment on how damaging it | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
would be for the university sector if the number of international | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
students that can be recruited at anyone institution is related to the | :28:03. | :28:13. | |
traffic light system. As we know, Mr Deputy Speaker, international | :28:14. | :28:16. | |
students are not only important for higher education but also the | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
economy, international student contribution GDP is almost certainly | :28:22. | :28:30. | |
in excess of about ten billion and supports the equivalent of 170,000 | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
jobs. Many of the students go to postgraduate work, leading research | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
and innovation in this country. Therefore, to be congratulated and | :28:41. | :28:47. | |
supported. Not only do they get to know the United Kingdom, they also | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
develop an affinity for that, developing links with staff and | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
contributing massively to the self diplomacy that we have already | :28:59. | :29:04. | |
spoken about this afternoon. I think they also improve Britain's standing | :29:05. | :29:10. | |
in the world and that cannot be over emphasised. Therefore, it is really | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
important that the government does not put international recruitment of | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
students at risk. Because once they are there, the students also enrich | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
society and contribute to that. I know this from my constituency, | :29:27. | :29:34. | |
where the international students add to the cultural experience. Can I | :29:35. | :29:47. | |
concur with my right honourable friend, about the contribution and | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
good experiences that international students get. My own local | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
university at Preston has many thousands of foreign students, | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
enriching the city and these students want to leave the United | :30:02. | :30:09. | |
Kingdom but actually become some of the best ambassadors. The experience | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
that really ticking into mixing positive about the future. Thank you | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker. I think my right honourable friend makes an excellent | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
point. And I think this ambassadors role is something that the | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
government have to take on board. We can only be overwhelmed and at the | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
mixed messages that the government has been deafening. One message | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
coming from education, another from the Home Office. I actually do not | :30:40. | :30:48. | |
yet know whether the Department for International trade have got an | :30:49. | :30:50. | |
opinion on international students. If they do not, they really ought | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
to! And it should be promoting what people have said this afternoon. It | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
is an important industry. What seems to be happening, the Home Office in | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
fact instead of supporting an increase in the number of | :31:12. | :31:13. | |
international students seems to be getting the message that we need to | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
reduce numbers. This is having an effect. The figures that I have got | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
for the number of international students and what is happening to | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
the trend, very different to the one that the Minister read out earlier. | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
It would appear that the number of new entrants has fallen by 2.8%. And | :31:35. | :31:44. | |
indeed, one study has put these figures down as low as 5%. The | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
Minister must also know that the British Council as stated that the | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
native kingdom is beginning to lose market share to competitors. This is | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
something that the government should be concerned about. Also what this | :32:00. | :32:04. | |
amendment is really seeking to find out from the Minister is whether he | :32:05. | :32:15. | |
or the Home Office have got any notion for introducing a system that | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
the number of international students who can be recruited, depends on the | :32:19. | :32:28. | |
traffic light system. So together the Minister and example, FC have | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
been greeted gold, no cap whatsoever. If they get bronze, oh | :32:36. | :32:48. | |
dear... A cap could be put on the number of students that could be | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
recruited. To use the automobile analogy that my right honourable | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
friend used earlier, this would be like telling Nissan, you can go out | :32:58. | :33:12. | |
and sell as many cars as you like, but Vauxhall? | :33:13. | :33:13. | |
We are going to limit the numbers. Clearly this is nonsense. We need to | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
have definite read assurances from the Minister today that this | :33:22. | :33:28. | |
regulation is not going to be used to be linked to the number of | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
international students that can be recruited. I will give way briefly. | :33:32. | :33:40. | |
On that particular point, it is bizarre that when the Times | :33:41. | :33:50. | |
supplementary supplement producers university rankings, the government | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
intervenes. And clearly, the choice is almost market-based. My right | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
honourable friend has made an important point and as he will know, | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
international students are central to the business model of every | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
institution in this country. In addition to the possible | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
reputational damage that could be done to the universities, we also do | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
not want the message to quote that international students are not | :34:22. | :34:31. | |
welcome. The way in which the Minister, Home Office, other | :34:32. | :34:38. | |
departments could do with this, say they are temporary visitors, like | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
Australia do. And that means removing students from the net | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
migration statistics. It is a simple thing for the government to do. I | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
hope that we hear from the Minister this afternoon that he is going to | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
do that. We should be ambitious for universities, enabling them to grow, | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
international markets like Australia, Canada, and not seeking | :35:05. | :35:13. | |
to limit international potential. As the Minister will know, he has got a | :35:14. | :35:18. | |
mandate to do this. The recent Congress study again reported by my | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
right honourable friend, the member for Sheffield Central, has said that | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
75% of people who expressed a view would like to see the same number or | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
more international students in the United Kingdom. It also revealed | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
that the majority of the British public think that international | :35:40. | :35:44. | |
students should be able to stay and and work for a period of time. I | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
think it is a clear case and I hope that the Minister responds | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
positively. If I can now move on quickly, Mr Deputy Speaker, to | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
amendment number 58. The Minister referred to this moments ago. He | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
will know that we have got huge concern in the higher education | :36:07. | :36:12. | |
sector about enabling bodies to be able to call themselves universities | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
that do not provide the range of services or support to students that | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
most of us would consider to be what a university is. And the reason, no | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
particular guidance on this at the moment. We have not needed that | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
because most universities have provided student support, provided | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
access to sport and recreational opportunities. Evading well-being | :36:46. | :36:52. | |
services, opportunities for volunteering, able to join the | :36:53. | :37:01. | |
student union. The University plays an important civil role. So on and | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
so on. The reason I thought it was necessary to table this amendment | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
this afternoon was because the government's legislation is going to | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
allow a series of higher education institutions to call themselves | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
universities. But as of yet we have no idea if they are going to have to | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
offer a whole range of basic services to students, able to join | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
the student union? Able to join support cops? -- sport clubs? Will | :37:33. | :37:44. | |
they have an important role in the local community? An important role | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
in the local economy? We have nothing as yet from the Minister | :37:49. | :37:54. | |
accept that there is going to be some the agents, I am minded at the | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
moment to push amendment number 58 to vote. I would like to hear from | :38:04. | :38:12. | |
the Minister, what is going to be in this cadence, about how we are | :38:13. | :38:19. | |
describing universities, what the minister's understanding of what a | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
university is, and when will this cadence be available? An particular, | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
is it going to be available before this bill is considered? | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
It's just a point really in that a university is an establishment where | :38:31. | :38:38. | |
higher level study and education and research is done. It's not actually | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
somewhere where one would necessarily avail oneself of volume | :38:47. | :38:49. | |
untiering experiences, for example. Or other things that you have | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
listed. I would contend that as we move forward, and as we move into | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
longer life Times where we may take degrees at different times, we may | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
actually be looking merely to access a degree to enhance careers rather | :39:06. | :39:08. | |
than actually making this part of our lifestyle. The honourable lady | :39:09. | :39:16. | |
was on the committee and I'm sure that she will recall that the things | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
that are had in this specific amendment are in addition to what we | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
would perhaps say is the core business of a university, which is | :39:26. | :39:32. | |
to enable people to study for a higher level qualification. It's | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
about ensuring that we're not going to get whole series of universities | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
and institutions that can use university in its title that are, in | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
fact, only offering a single course of study and a single qualification. | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
Because we think that will dumb down the sector, not only for students in | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
the UK, but in particular for international students and the | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
honourable lady will know that it's a highly competitive sector | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
internationally and we want to ensure that our union slers toys | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
compete with the -- universities compete with the best in the world. | :40:11. | :40:17. | |
We've got huge concerns that in simply allowing an institution to | :40:18. | :40:19. | |
say it's a university, when it doesn't have to provide any access | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
to sports or recreation or cultural activities or volume untiering | :40:26. | :40:27. | |
opportunities or work-based learning experience or any of the other | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
things that currently are universities do right across the | :40:33. | :40:36. | |
piece. I hope the honourable lady is as proud as I am that our | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
universities do that. I give way again. Thank you very much Mr Deputy | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
Speaker. I would concur to a point. I am hugely rout of universities. I | :40:47. | :40:52. | |
am hugely proud what have they deliver into our economy I would | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
also argue that we have great institutions, for example, BT within | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
Suffolk is looking to hopefully have a specific agree around research, | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
learning and so on. These things should be enabled for a fewer chore | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
workforce fit for purpose -- future workforce fit for purpose, and not | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
wiped away because they don't perhaps offer the chance to play | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
five-a-side football. I too think that BT has a number of strengths as | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
a company. It's yet to be determined whether it is very good at running a | :41:31. | :41:37. | |
university. We will only know that in due course. Part of what I want | :41:38. | :41:45. | |
to see it doing, if it does run a university, is ensuring it's a | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
university as we would commonly understand it in this country and | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
not simply a company having a degree course. I give way to my honourable | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
friend. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Would she | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
acknowledge that part of the problem here and the honourable member picks | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
out the issue of five-a-side football, but the wider issue here | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
is that this is the first major piece of legislation on higher | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
education for a generation. It is giving an opportunity to extend | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
university title quite widely. Wouldn't she imagine that in that | :42:19. | :42:22. | |
context, isn't this the nub of the problem, there is no attempt to | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
define what a university is. I concur exactly with my honourable | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
friend. Actually what the minister said to me in committee was that he | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
was setting a high bar that only high quality providers will be able | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
to meet. Unfortunately, at this point in time, we have absolutely no | :42:45. | :42:51. | |
idea what is meant by that "high bar". I'm hoping that we will hear | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
from the minister this afternoon exactly what he means by a | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
university, what is going to be in the guidance and that the quality | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
and breadth of offer of our universities is going to be | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
protected and not got rid of by this Government. | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I am very grateful to colleagues for | :43:19. | :43:25. | |
making so many points from the bill committee that particularly | :43:26. | :43:27. | |
exercised me around part one of the bill because of the shortness of | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
time this afternoon, I just want to restrict my remarks to two issues | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
around students and staff in higher education. Firstly, turning to | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
Government amendment 21, concerning student representation on the board | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
of the office for students. Can I firstly welcome this amendment and | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
that the minister has listened to the huge number of representations | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
he's received from members of the bill committee, from students unions | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
and from higher education sector leaders, who really value the | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
contribution that students make and want to see students on the board of | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
the office for students. It would have been perverse to have a | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
regulator whose purpose is to protect the interests of students, | :44:09. | :44:11. | |
who have students' names on the door and on the headed paper but don't | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
have students around the table on the board. I'm glad that the | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
minister has moved on this particular point. I hope that as the | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
bill progresses into the other place that the minister might consider | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
moving further on the issue of student representation. During the | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
bill committee we also raised the issue of student representation on | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
the board of the designated quality provider and in drawing up the | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
quality code and ensuring that students have a representative role | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
in what could be, as my honourable friend, the member for City of | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
Durham highlighted, could be a wide range of new private providers, | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
whether an institution is a traditional university or a modern | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
university or one of the new private providers, it's crucial that | :44:59. | :45:00. | |
students' rights are protected and that their voice is represented at | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
the top of the institution. Can I also ask the minister to address how | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
he sees this issue of student representation playing out on the | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
board of the office for students? The wording the minister has put | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
forward isn't quite the wording that I put forward at bill committee, | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
which was slightly more prescrape Tiff and specificed it should be | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
either a students or a sabatical office of a students union or | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
officer of the national union for students. My slight caution about | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
the amendment that the minister has put forward is that the Secretary of | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
State's put forward, is that we could interpret the dive fission of | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
someone with experience of representing students quite loosely. | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
There are a number of members for this House, myself included, who | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
have experience of representing students. I'm sure we wouldn't | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
expect to find ourselves years later on the board of the office for | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
students. Perhaps when he makes remarks later in our discussions he | :45:54. | :46:01. | |
might step out what that representation might look like. | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
Thank you Mr Speaker. Can the honourable gentleman just define for | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
me what he considered a typical student is, in order that I could | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
gauge some idea of what somebody who could represent, for example, | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
myself, who went to college as a mature student might be or a | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
life-long learner or whatever. If we are too tight with the definition | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
and I think this gives us scope to have a looser definition, then this | :46:28. | :46:32. | |
might be more appropriate. I certainly don't think we'll be able | :46:33. | :46:35. | |
to find a typical student to sit on the board for the office of | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
students. As others have said from their positions, no such thing | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
exists. This really leads me onto where I wanted to direct the | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
minister in as far as I can. We should really value the skills and | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
expertise that representatives of students develop through their roles | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
in students unions, because there is no such thing as a typical students | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
and no such thing as a typical student experience. We should value | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
and champion the role that students' union officers play in developing | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
their skills and experience as representatives to make sure that | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
students' unions are championing the broad Diversity of students at their | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
institutions, whether fulltime, partime, whether they are doing part | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
of a course on a credit base approach, whether they're living at | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
home and commuting to university or they've moved away from home, there | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
are a wide range of student experiences. The challenge for | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
anyone who seeks to be a representative is to make sure that | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
we're genuinely drawing on the broad range of experiences, as we have to | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
do as constituency monies. I would hope, this brings me onto the point | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
I hope the minister will make, I would hope that when the minister | :47:49. | :47:55. | |
comes to a point at one of these representatives that he appoints | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
someone who is a sabatical officer of a students union. I think that we | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
are very lucky in this country to have a means through which students | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
can develop a really good base of skills and experience, which if you | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
look at the voluntary sector, many of the country's leading chief | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
executive in voluntary organisations have been sabatical officers. People | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
in all sorts of professions because the experience and the skill set it | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
gives you is genuinely valuable beyond the scope of representing | :48:28. | :48:31. | |
students during their time at university. So I hope that's the | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
sort of person the minister has in mind, that we're not going to be | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
dragging people back from beyond, dusting themselves off from | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
retirement. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Whilst a gree | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
with everything that he's saying, I think the honourable lady opposite | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
was making reference in particular to distance learning students | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
perhaps, mature students, people who have followed a less, if I can put | :48:55. | :48:59. | |
it this way, usual course in order to obtain a qualification. Certainly | :49:00. | :49:02. | |
when I met my president of the students union over the years, they | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
have been sympathetic to the needs of students like that. Could he | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
perhaps address her point? I absolutely agree with that point | :49:11. | :49:13. | |
which brings me back to the issue of the skills and expertise that | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
Student Union sabatical officers develop as sabatical officers. You | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
look at the open university students association, these are institutions | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
almost entirely dedicated to partime students, people from | :49:31. | :49:32. | |
non-traditional routes, people often working alongside their studies, who | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
might return to learning later on. It is important that those broad | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
range of experiences and perspectives are represented on the | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
board of the office for students. I hope the minister will appoint | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
someone to that job, to that position who is able to represent | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
the broad interests of students. Now I want to turn to the issue of | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
staff. I should probably declare that I'm a member of the trade union | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
Unison which represents a number of staff in higher education. I should | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
draw members' attention to my register of financial interests on | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
that particular point too. Amendment 48 picks up on the theme I've just | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
been discussing around student representation on the board and | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
makes the case for staff representation on the board of the | :50:17. | :50:19. | |
office for students. Staff are absolutely critical to the success | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
of our higher education sector, whether it's academic staff, | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
directly engaged in teeveng and learning, or the wide range of | :50:27. | :50:30. | |
support staff, who are often unheralded when it comes to the | :50:31. | :50:32. | |
contribution they make to the student experience. For example, | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
thinking back to my own experience, the very first member of staff I | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
spoke to at my university wasn't an academic. It was in the admissions | :50:41. | :50:49. | |
office. When I was at university, I spoke to staff through my role in | :50:50. | :50:53. | |
the students union, at the time the entertainment officer of the Student | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
Union. When I had a particularly small room in my second year, and a | :50:58. | :51:02. | |
larger one became available, Sue Jeffries made a substantial | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
difference to my learning environment. Margaret Hay, who | :51:06. | :51:13. | |
recently retired in the tu tore office was essential. Bearing in | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
mind what other honourable members have said about the role | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
international staff play in our institutions, I think it is | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
important that there are people on the board of the office of students | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
who have experience of representing the interests of staff. Because many | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
of our trade union colleagues, particularly in the university and | :51:33. | :51:35. | |
college union, have made a powerful case about the impact that | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
casualisation of contracts is having, for example, on our ability | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
to recruit and retain good staff. And their ability to deliver a good | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
student experience. But there will be other trade unions like Unison | :51:47. | :51:53. | |
and unite who often represent staff who may not be directly engaged in | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
teaching are often providing essential support functions that can | :51:58. | :51:59. | |
be the difference between an excellent or poor student | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
experience. I would hope their voices also represented on the | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
office for students, their interests are represented, because I think | :52:09. | :52:11. | |
particularly with where we've taken our country in terms of the debate | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
around our ability to attract and retarn excellent staff from around | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
the world, I think we leave ourselves in a very vulnerable | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
position that sectors such as ours, that is so world leading in its | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
performance but also in its reach, we really do need to champion and | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
protect the interests of staff. So I hope the minister will take those | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
points on board. I thank him for the movement he's shown since the bill | :52:38. | :52:40. | |
committee. I'd almost given up hope by the end of committee we would see | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
much progress. To give him credit he has moved. I hope he'll listen to | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
the points we make this afternoon. Can I apologise to the members of | :52:49. | :53:04. | |
the standing committee. They have an advantage over me. I assure you I | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
read from cover to cover in one fell swoop the entire transcript. | :53:11. | :53:19. | |
Riveting reading it was. The Minister was trying to suggest for a | :53:20. | :53:24. | |
widening of scope of this legislation regarding overseas | :53:25. | :53:28. | |
students but I think the amendments are in order. We get very few | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
opportunities to talk about this issue. The key point I want to make | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
is that overseas students are very much part of the viability of the | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
university sector. This Bill is about anything, it is about the | :53:43. | :53:50. | |
viability of the university sector. We are in a brave new world now | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
after Brexit. Universities wanted a different type of outcome and the | :53:57. | :54:04. | |
Minister has tried to reassure a traumatised sector on this issue. It | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
is easy to see why they have potential to lose good students, a | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
lot of opportunities for UK students and there are severe outcomes for | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
the research sector. I polled a range of vice chancellors and I | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
found 86% of them think the impact of Brexit on the research programmes | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
in their universities will be severe. The impacts are financial, | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
cultural, academic in the sense there can be a collapse of | :54:34. | :54:35. | |
undergraduate courses and they have a profound impact on the research | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
universities currently conduct. Some things are certainly true and the | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
minister repeat some of these and nothing changes in the short term. | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
As other ministers have said to be rehab international students before | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
we were ever in the EU and -- we have had international students | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
before we were ever in the EU. But membership of the EU makes it a | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
whole lot easier for British universities. That is why there is a | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
case for following numbers. That is what clause nine endeavours to do. | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
Numbers are set viability and the OFS don't deal on numbers, who will? | :55:21. | :55:28. | |
Coming to clause 12, also in my name, it is worrying and has been | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
alluded to already today, we include student numbers in net immigration | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
statistics, nonsensically, the government. The Minister welcomes | :55:43. | :55:48. | |
international students and I have seen him say how welcoming we | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
supposed to be to international students. The public, as we | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
established through polling, also welcome international students. Even | :56:00. | :56:01. | |
when they are buried at the same time about immigration in general. | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
-- even when they are buried. It is a nonsense to include them in net | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
immigration statistics. What worries the government is when it is used to | :56:12. | :56:18. | |
a stepping stone to employment and residents. This clearly does the | :56:19. | :56:24. | |
Home Office. He has already spoken about the comments of the Home | :56:25. | :56:27. | |
Secretary, which I find worrying, but also worrying is the Prime | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
Minister's senior adviser stating that the government after leaving | :56:34. | :56:46. | |
the use, -- the EU, saying that... The Russell group is essentially a | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
self-selected group, essentially snobbish, but another thing would be | :56:51. | :56:57. | |
to differentiate between students depending upon the teaching | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
excellence framework of their particular institution. In my view | :57:01. | :57:08. | |
that would be severe. The teaching excellence framework is in its | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
infancy and not suited to that task. Not all universities are bound to it | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
in the first place and individuals' ability cannot be predicated on the | :57:17. | :57:26. | |
institution he or she attends. A few of us -- few us would like to be | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
judged by the quality of the teaching we have received. Surviving | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
poor teaching is an entirely marketable skill. Profiting from | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
good teaching is a slightly easier thing. I have got to say there are | :57:39. | :57:49. | |
good, valuable courses in institutions who may have a poor | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
teaching excellence framework in general. It clearly will affect the | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
ability of some institutions to attract overseas students and | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
valuable courses as a result will collapse. Certainly in the capital. | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
And further, regarding overseas applicants concentrating on applying | :58:08. | :58:10. | |
to universities with the teaching excellence framework are making it | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
more difficult for UK students to access them and universities may | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
shun the teaching excellence framework and those purposes. The | :58:19. | :58:24. | |
list goes on. Welding together Home Office policy and education policy | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
seldom works. We should clear this up. The Minister has the opportunity | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
to clear this up at the dispatch box later on but so far the government | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
on this, their take on this, has been less than clear, certainly when | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
it comes from the Home Office. Last week, the Home Office had the | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
opportunity to categorically say this isn't going to happen. But we | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
don't know categorically whether this will happen or not. I may not | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
get support from my own members. This issue will not go away because | :58:57. | :59:09. | |
it is important to the sector. Thank you and I browse to speak -- rise to | :59:10. | :59:21. | |
speak to the amendments and the Minister's moving of clause one. If | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
I can start with the Minister and clause one and his other remarks and | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
make an observation in general, of course we welcome the move to | :59:30. | :59:36. | |
include a student representative on the body as has been described but | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
it is, I have to say, relatively thin gruel competitively range of | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
positive amendments that would involve employees and students in a | :59:47. | :59:55. | |
number of key issues that the OFS is going to have two face and which we | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
meant to discuss in committee. If the government wants to calm | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
suspicion is in this house that it is too concerned to have the OFS as | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
a body without enough things being defined on the face of the Bill, so | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
that future secretaries of state we have to work for the worst of the | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
naughtiest secretaries of state, not necessarily the best and not even | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
the best university Minister. We're going to do that we have to put | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
things on the face of the Bill. We haven't had that ability and it is | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
not helpful, either, that the ability to tease out these issues is | :00:41. | :00:48. | |
confined to one day on 113 clauses and 12 schedules where other members | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
who might have come in today know perfectly well that so many of the | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
issues we had to discuss will now have two be taken into the other | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
place. I went to begin by talking about our amendments and I want to | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
talk briefly to the ones related particularly to the issues of staff | :01:09. | :01:11. | |
and student involvement. Amendment 37 talks about the consultation to | :01:12. | :01:19. | |
ongoing registration conditions. This might sound very technical and | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
I know there is some consultation with bodies of informed groups | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
representing staff and students at the moment but what is very | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
important is that some of the new providers that the Minister wants to | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
see coming into the marketplace will be relatively small and may have a | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
relatively informal groupings, and so the position of SA and students | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
have to be taken into account. That leaves me to speak to amendments 36 | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
and 48. My honourable friend from Ilford South has already referred | :01:54. | :02:00. | |
to... Ilford North, I am sorry, had already referred to amendments 38. | :02:01. | :02:07. | |
It is important the government gets into its mindset with higher | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
education that it is not simply about vice chancellors, however | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
excellent they are. It is not simply about business managers, however | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
excellent they are. It is about the support staff who live in the local | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
communities were universities are situated. It is about the excellent | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
teaching and social mobility and student choice. Actually, you know, | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
cleaning staff can often be the first point of contact for live in | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
students who face isolation and need someone to talk to. The government | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
really needs to get a culture step change in the way in which it | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
addresses these issues and not put some of those groups on as an | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
afterthought. We believe that these modest amendments would take us down | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
that route. It is also talked about in the Bill, the whole issue of | :02:57. | :03:04. | |
social mobility. The Minister waxes lyrical on that subject and I | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
believe genuinely so, but if you want to walk the walk, you have to | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
do something about putting the beef onto the talk that you have given | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
and that is why we are moving Amendment, Wiley have put down | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
Amendment 38, which would make access and participation plans | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
mandatorily the higher education providers, are higher education | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
providers, because the government has a lot of angles on this Bill but | :03:33. | :03:39. | |
competition and consumers rights are always repeated. Competition has to | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
go hand-in-hand with consumers rights and any aberrant have this | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
competitive market, I am perfectly happy to see the Paul of new | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
providers expanded. I spent 20 years working for an organisation, the | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
open University, which was once a new provider, but I was anxious to | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
ensure that providers bring to the table a proper sense of the | :04:04. | :04:05. | |
responsibilities they will have two meat and that is why it is really | :04:06. | :04:11. | |
important to make sure that at the heart of what those new providers do | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
is an access and participation plan. Now, there maybe the conservatism | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
which the numbers that that producers are relatively modest -- | :04:20. | :04:27. | |
there may be circumstances in which. Providers need to accept those | :04:28. | :04:30. | |
responsibilities if the government want to go forward. It is any sense | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
of inclusion also that we have put down Amendment 39, which would | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
include people with disabilities and carers as well as the age of | :04:39. | :04:41. | |
applicants and the published number of applications. This is very | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
important in terms of demonstrating the emphasis, which I am going to | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
come onto when I talk about our new clause 15, the emphasis that had | :04:52. | :04:55. | |
already been made by a number of people here, and that is on the | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
whole issue of mature and older students and indeed part-time | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
students. If we want to have realistic expectations of where | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
those groups are going, to know what government needs to do and we have | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
heard that already spoken today by a number of honourable members in | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
respect of international students, then we have to have that evidence | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
and the need to broaden those parameters is reflected specifically | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
in this Amendment. I want to move on now to our new clause four and also | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
to Amendment 30. New clause four, which would establish a committee on | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
degree awarding powers and university title, is actually | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
modelled on things that were in the further and higher education act in | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
1992. We want to pass the Bill is over. The government, rather | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
curiously, doesn't want to have a committee looking at degree awarding | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
powers and university title. One might have thought they would | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
welcome this, after all, we know that they are bedding down, | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
inevitably slowly, in the new Department with responsibilities and | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
you might have thought they would actually welcome that process but | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
no, that has not been the case. Again, the government cannot be | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
surprised, therefore, if people think that they are wanting to have | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
as little scrutiny outside of government of these new providers as | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
possible. That is the basis on which new clause four, which I myself to | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
the Minister, is supported by, I think, all the university groups | :06:36. | :06:38. | |
have spoken to us, is being put down. It would allow the OFS to | :06:39. | :06:46. | |
revoke degree awarding powers were university title without consulting | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
the committee as it stands at the moment. Now, the current | :06:50. | :07:01. | |
arrangements are, the Minister states, required the assurance... It | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
is vital that the OFS continues to seek advice for designated quality | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
body prior to any conferring of degree awarding powers all | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
university title. There is therefore a strong argument to introduce this | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
new clause to further that regulation. But, when it of course, | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
comes la amendments 30 and 31 and they are designed precisely to | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
underline the point is that my honourable friend the member for | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
Durham, in her inputted intervention supporting her own amendments, 58, | :07:37. | :07:43. | |
we need to shine a light on and distinguish between a broad-based | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
new providers and those who could simply go the opportunist, fast buck | :07:49. | :07:55. | |
causes, or those who are simply inefficiently structured or | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
financed, to do all sorts of things that my honourable friend talked | :07:58. | :07:58. | |
about in her speech. There is huge concern in the sector | :07:59. | :08:11. | |
as others have said about single course universities and about what | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
hasn't been said so much. The huge amount of public money that will go | :08:19. | :08:21. | |
into those new providers, providing a jump through the issue is the | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Government have currently put in front of them. It is our contention | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
that those hoops are not adequate at the moment and because of that, we | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
want to press this matter further. To say that the amendments 40 which | :08:37. | :08:43. | |
requires the OFS to be assured about the standards of students before | :08:44. | :08:52. | |
issuing students grabbed agree is very important in this area. | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
Deputies beaker, I want to give notice that we will be pressing a | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
vote on Amendment 40. Whatever the outcome of that vote, I can assure | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
the minister that this particular issue is unlikely to away and there | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
will no doubt get more questions on this in the other place. I have | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
spoken against something that the Government has wanted to do. I want | :09:17. | :09:23. | |
to speak now about our new clause 15, which with new set up a... In | :09:24. | :09:32. | |
doing so, I want to thank the Minister for the small but important | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
movement that there has been on this issue. This issue of part-time loans | :09:39. | :09:46. | |
which is being looked at the current situation. It is very important in | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
that process. If we look at the actual situation, and we said this | :09:52. | :09:57. | |
great length on the committee, I'm not going to go through all the | :09:58. | :10:00. | |
statistics. The dire situation that adult learners have in since 2010 | :10:01. | :10:06. | |
and the way in which so many of those adult learners have been | :10:07. | :10:14. | |
disadvantaged at a time when we should be competing for them to be | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
re-skilled, retrained, in order to meet our economic and our social | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
objectives for the 21st-century 's. The Lord reason the speech of the | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
House of Lords said we need to have a revolution in the way in which we | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
formalise a system which more readily allows transfers between | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
institutions. Bring part-time and full-time study. The demands of | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
part-time and distance learning will grow. Because of the high fees | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
imposed on students at traditional universities. The Lord Rees is | :10:47. | :10:57. | |
absolutely right. The time for action is now. This is why this | :10:58. | :11:04. | |
party and this front benches is bringing forward this major and | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
significant bench to create a discussion about lifelong learning. | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
It in city which would set a course which was originally laid out by | :11:17. | :11:26. | |
David Blunkett in the learning age by paper in 1998, but has been sadly | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
sidelined and bylined up until now. All PSUs about lifelong learning -- | :11:32. | :11:41. | |
all the issues are not an optional extra. It is fundamental to compete | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
in a post-Brexit world. It is fundamental to our social confusion | :11:47. | :11:53. | |
and believing in the dignity of work. -- social cohesion. All the | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
people in their families, opening doors to them which have so often | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
been revolving in the middle classes, but finding themselves | :12:04. | :12:08. | |
stuck on the first run of the ladder. That is what we want to do. | :12:09. | :12:13. | |
We want to think about how we deliver these things locally and | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
nationally. We are not claiming that this structure which is put on the | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
face of the bill is perfect. We have taken very wide soundings from | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
allsorts of groups of people from city and Guilds, from unions, from | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
open University, and indeed from what we ourselves have thought about | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
these matters. I would merely sate of the Minister look at this clause | :12:43. | :12:51. | |
as a cause that would do some of the things you are talking about in | :12:52. | :12:54. | |
terms of social mobility and take it on board because I say to the | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
Minister that if this Government does not take it on board, we will | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
take it on board. We will take it through to the House of Lords. We | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
will take it out into the country and we will put this issue of proper | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
lifelong learning of higher and further education right at the top | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
of the agenda. I want to also now move on finally to the amendments 46 | :13:21. | :13:32. | |
and 47. Many of the things that I would have said as to why we need in | :13:33. | :13:40. | |
particular to make sure that the TEF is taken out the hands of Whitehall | :13:41. | :13:47. | |
and actually put far more centrally into the hands of Parliament have | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
been illustrated by the excellent speeches we have heard this | :13:53. | :13:55. | |
afternoon by my honourable friend, the member for Sheffield Central, my | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
honourable friend from Coventry with his interventions, the Honourable | :14:02. | :14:03. | |
Lady from Glasgow North West, the comments of the honourable gentleman | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
from Blackwell south and others. The reason that we do not trust the | :14:11. | :14:17. | |
Government with the TEF as it is is because they have demonstrated ever | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
since they introduce this bill that whenever they had an opportunity to | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
do something to keep control of the process and to try and actually get | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
things through that would not require legislation in detail they | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
have turned to the TEF. They have turned to the TEF as an automatic | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
link between itself and raising tuition fees. They have turned the | :14:44. | :14:51. | |
TEF as we have heard already, maybe not them, but the Home Office | :14:52. | :14:54. | |
holding a sword of Damocles over them, over at all over the issue of | :14:55. | :15:02. | |
international students. They have not turned to putting on the face of | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
the bill in any shape or form with the TEF is going to be done on a | :15:08. | :15:14. | |
whole University, a school or other subject areas. We have also heard | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
from my honourable friend 's of the many significant issues that there | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
are around the metrics in this area. It is a question of confidence and | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
trust and of parliamentary scrutiny. It is that parliamentary scrutiny | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
that is being denied under the plan Reed present process. The vast | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
majority of people in this country do not regard students as migrants, | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
but we could have a situation is being heard with the gold, silver | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
and bronze issue that these things could be smuggled in to dire | :15:51. | :15:57. | |
consequences for our social can cohesion, productivity and so many | :15:58. | :16:04. | |
things we will need post-Brexit. This move is violently dismissed by | :16:05. | :16:14. | |
the sector. It is a strange conjunction in the way they have | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
brought the TEF forward to have annoyed and alarmed almost every | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
sector of the University world, whether you are talking about the | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
people employed in the universities, the people who study them, the | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
people who manage them, the vice chancellors who are ahead of them, | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
or their relatives, families and everybody else who are now worried | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
about what should be... And we had a little discussion about this on the | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
committee, the minister talked about my views on about 2000 to about | :16:48. | :17:01. | |
teaching excellence. -- 2002. I have not changed my views. What I'm | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
certain of is the teaching excellence framework which started | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
out in this bill as bad enough has now been malformed Andy formed -- | :17:10. | :17:17. | |
and deformed in the way that it was threatened to be used to not be | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
something that is completely useless but something that could be an | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
absolute danger in all the ways that I have described right at the heart | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
of our university system. It is for those reasons on this subject, I am | :17:29. | :17:36. | |
sure we had to use ingenuity to get discussion of this on the bill. | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
Cleverly have the Government gone about keeping the TEF off the face | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
of the bill. Those issues around the TEF will be returned to and with | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
some significance and in no short order when it goes to the other | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
place. I therefore want to place on record that we will be pressing our | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
amendment 47 on the need for these measures to be continuing subject to | :18:06. | :18:13. | |
scrutiny of both houses of Parliament to vote. It has been a | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
good debate and I'm glad to have the chance to respond to some of the | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
points made. There have been a lot made, I will not be able to get to | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
all of them. Turning to amendment 51, of which the member of Sheffield | :18:30. | :18:38. | |
spoke passionately, he met with my colleague the Minister of the | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
Constitution after the bill committee and he will agree that we | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
also met with the member for Bath who is not in this place at the | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
moment to discuss the issue. That is because we share the aims of | :18:51. | :18:53. | |
increasing the number of young people registered to vote. We had | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
previously demonstrated our commitment to his cause by | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
supporting and contributing financially to the pilot at his | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
university at the University of Sheffield. That is why when we met | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
him, we undertook to encourage the take-up of the initiative by writing | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
out to vice chancellors describing the outcomes of the pilot his | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
institution had published. We also agreed that the honourable member | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
should attend a roundtable meeting on student registration and the | :19:26. | :19:27. | |
Minister of the Constitution promised to consider other ways | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
registration could be increased. I regret that owing to a scheduling | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
issue with one of the external stakeholders, not the Minister for | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
the constitution, we were unable to hold the meeting is planned and we | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
are actively looking to rearrange it to fulfil the commitment we made to | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
him at that meeting following the bill committee. Turning to amendment | :19:49. | :19:57. | |
37, which wishes and seeks to widen the base of those the NHS should | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
consult before it determines what changes the initial and ongoing | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
registration conditions to exclude staff and students, especially those | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
dealing with the higher education providers. We will take the views of | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
students into account in all of these issues. It is part of a wider | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
consultation of the framework. Closing statement clear that bodies | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
representing the interests of students and other such persons it | :20:29. | :20:36. | |
considers important should all be involved in this consultation. It is | :20:37. | :20:39. | |
my clear expectation that the NHS will strongly talk to providers | :20:40. | :20:48. | |
including staff and students as a matter of good practice. The OFS | :20:49. | :20:54. | |
itself will also listen to students and staff if it thinks it will add | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
value. This amendment is unnecessary. Amendment 52, relating | :20:59. | :21:05. | |
to the international students, I recognise that the number of | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
international students are a G system attract any income they | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
provide are clearly issues for the sector. I understand the motivation | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
for this amendment. I do not believe that this bill is the appropriate | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
vehicle for commissioning annual reports of the number of | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
international students and their economic impact. As I have already | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
set out, Government new clause one requires the NHS to monitor and | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
report on the financial health of the English each EU sector in the | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
round. We will get a very clear picture of the number of | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
international sector. Clause 81 B requires all registered providers to | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
give the NHS the information it needs to perform its functions. This | :21:55. | :22:06. | |
will allow the NHS to gather details on international students. New | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
clause one and a one B already achieves these amendments. There is | :22:11. | :22:20. | |
a amount of information available. Each ESE collect data. The | :22:21. | :22:27. | |
Department for Education will shortly publishing statistics on the | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
value of education and exports. The Home Office itself will also publish | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
data and as I mentioned in discussions with earlier, its data | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
says there has been a 14% increase in the number of international | :22:47. | :22:55. | |
students coming since 2010. Regarding clause 14, I thank the | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
honourable members for bringing the bill back. I still do not believe | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
that this bill is the appropriate vehicle for studying and | :23:05. | :23:09. | |
commissioning research into Post study work. The bill is focused on | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
creating the necessary structures that will oversee higher education | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
and research funding for many years to come. The scope of what this | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
amendment proposes, a short-term amount of work on migration policy | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
is not consistent with the scope and functions of UK RIA. The UK has an | :23:27. | :23:31. | |
excellent offer for overseas students who graduate in the UK. | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
International graduates can remain in the UK to work following their | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
Suddes by switching to several existing Visa routes including Tier | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
two skilled worker visas. There is no cap of the number of students who | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
can switch to 82 skilled worker Visa. Horrible members will be | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
interested to learn that according to Home Office figures I have before | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
me now, under our current provisions, over 6000 international | :24:00. | :24:12. | |
students switched 282 Visa, up from 5200 and 2014. In around 4000 in | :24:13. | :24:13. | |
2013. Britain is the second most popular | :24:14. | :24:23. | |
international destination for students after the United States. I | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
will respond to some of the points made on the teaching framework now. | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
Turning the first to migration and I would urge honourable members to | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
carefully calmed down and consider the Home Secretary's speech that she | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
set out at the party conference. We want our universities to continue to | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
attract genuine students from around the world. We have no plans to | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
introduce any cap on the number of non-EU students who can come to the | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
UK to study. No decisions have been made on tailoring differentiating | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
non-EU students migration rules on the basis of the quality of the | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
higher education institution or how this might be achieved. As the Home | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
Secretary announced in her speech, we will shortly be seeking views on | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
the study immigration route and we encourage all interested parties to | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
participate to ensure that every point of view is heard. New clause | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
12 is therefore unnecessary and premature as the government intends | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
to seek views. I will give way. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
forgiving way. I accept his points on this issue and his commitments | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
and all the rest of it. Could you tell us whether it is what is not | :25:46. | :25:54. | |
true that Home Office officials who accompanied the Prime Minister on | :25:55. | :25:56. | |
her visit to India were openly talking to people about using the | :25:57. | :26:04. | |
bronze element of the TF of reducing the migration numbers for students? | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
Be visiting India, which I was honoured to be a part of, was a big | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
success and gave us opportunities to reiterate our strong messages that | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
we welcome genuine students and there is no limit on the number of | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
students who can come and study at our institution. There's no better | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
place than the UK to receive a higher education and we want is the | :26:29. | :26:32. | |
dedicated students coming here. I thank him for giving way. I can | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
assure him we archive on this issue but he could harm us further. -- | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
calm us further but could he explain what the Home Secretary meant in the | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
context of his comments a few moments ago when he talked about the | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
use of quality in relation to the Beazer system and in particular, I | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
quote," looking at tougher rules for students on lower quality courses" | :27:02. | :27:08. | |
what does that mean? High quality in the students are compliant | :27:09. | :27:11. | |
institutions. We want compliance to be a strong feature of our system. | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
It is important the sector does or it can to be compliant with Home | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
Office regulations. The ability to bring students in Ontario for visas | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
is a privilege, not a right. It comes with an obligation to ensure | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
that students coming in here to his country to study the terms of their | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
visas. The sector should welcome that because the sector wants a | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
high-quality system of international study and the government will be | :27:40. | :27:42. | |
bring forward a consultation paper in coming weeks that will enable | :27:43. | :27:47. | |
everybody across the sector, including the honourable member, to | :27:48. | :27:50. | |
contribute their views at how this can be best achieved. I will not | :27:51. | :27:53. | |
give way on that point again because... I am grateful. The | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
Minister talk about compliance. Why did the Home Secretary not talk | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
about compliance? She talked about our was a student on lower quality | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
causes. Nothing to do with compliance. What did she mean? -- | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
she did mention compliance in her speech. She mentioned compliance and | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
quality was high-quality institutions are compliant | :28:18. | :28:19. | |
institutions. Are then and the same. In relation to... I thank him for | :28:20. | :28:29. | |
giving way. High-quality institutions could have poor quality | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
courses within them. Institutions potentially could have a bronze | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
rating could have high-quality courses within them for the paddle a | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
distinction be made? I would urge the honourable member to wait for | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
the conversation document as you will be able to assess the | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
Governor's proposals in due course when the Home Office is ready to | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
publish it. -- the government has macro proposals. I do not believe | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
the content of these amendments is necessary or proportion. The | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
development of the TF has been and will continue to be an iterative | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
process as it was before it. Requiring Parliament to agree each | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
and every change to the framework would stifle its healthy | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
development. The RTF scheme is not the to this level of oversight by | :29:20. | :29:25. | |
Parliament and emotionally it be. They also have touched on the | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
descriptors, the gold, silver and bronze as if they were a sudden | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
invention escarpment. These are descriptors that are both familiar | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
to the sector because they are used in other areas of it. The technology | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
is already used, for example, in certain awards and many universities | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
for investors in people in each of these cases it is fully recognised | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
that aid runs is still a high-quality award, whilst gold is | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
reserved those of high quality -- recognised that a Franz is still a | :29:59. | :30:15. | |
high-quality award -- a bronze. It would simply allow for a pass, fail | :30:16. | :30:21. | |
assessment. The teaching excellence framework assesses over and above a | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
baseline assessment of quality and our descriptors will allow students, | :30:26. | :30:28. | |
parents, schools and employers to clear differentiate between | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
providers. We have consulted on the metrics, proposed, considered the | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
metrics put forward and we still think the metrics represent the best | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
opportunity we have to assess teaching a widely used across the | :30:44. | :30:49. | |
sector. Turning to amendment 50, we have consulted extensively on these | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
metrics and made significant improvements. It would be | :30:57. | :30:59. | |
unnecessarily burdensome to consult further and we will continue to take | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
a reasoned approach to the metrics and giving the public later we | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
approach I have described previously we expect the OFS to take a similar | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
approach. Let me now address the point made on a degree awarding | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
powers and university title. Let me be clear, only those providers that | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
can prove they can meet the high standards associated with the values | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
and reputation of the English higher education system can obtain degree | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
awarding powers. In a higher education provider can demonstrate | :31:29. | :31:31. | |
its ability to deliver high-quality provision, we want to make it easier | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
for them to start awarding their own degrees, rather than needing to have | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
the degree is what causes are awarded a competing incumbent. As | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
the chief executive of University Alliance has said, these plans | :31:45. | :31:48. | |
strike a healthy balance between protecting the quality and global | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
reputation of our country's universities are also encouraging | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
innovation. I am grateful to him for giving way. He may want to comment | :31:57. | :32:03. | |
on clause four. Could he just tell us why the government is so | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
reluctant to have a process which has served the higher education | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
sector thousands 1992 Red Cross into the new arrangements for the OFS? I | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
refer to the committee which we have that in the clause four. In relation | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
to new clause four, we intend to keep the processes around the | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
scrutiny of applications for degree awarding powers, would have worked | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
reasonably well. Broadly as they are, that includes retaining an | :32:32. | :32:34. | |
element of independent peer review for degree awarding powers | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
applications. I said as much in the Bill committee. These processes are | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
not currently set out in legislation to avoid tying them to a static | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
process. We intend to keep it that way. We have published a technical | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
note on market entry and quality assurance, which sets out more | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
detail on how exactly the quality threshold will operate. Turning to | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
new clause seven, our policy is that the degree awarding powers cannot be | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
transferred or sold for commercial purposes and we do not see this | :33:05. | :33:10. | |
changing. If the holder of a degree awarding powers were about a change | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
of ownership or a complex group ownership changed, the provider | :33:15. | :33:17. | |
would be expected to inform the OFS. They would be expected to | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
demonstrate that they remain the same, cohesive academic community | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
that was awarded degree awarding powers and that they continue to be | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
the criteria for university title. We intend to consult on these | :33:29. | :33:33. | |
detailed circumstances where degree awarding powers and university title | :33:34. | :33:38. | |
might be revoked, including instances of changes of ownership. | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
There is therefore no need for this new clause. Turning to amendments 30 | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
and 41, the OFS is already required under clause to to have the need to | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
promote quality when carrying out its function. The OFS will have the | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
guards to the need to promote quality when authorising providers | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
to grant degrees. I can reassure members that we will, as now, ensure | :34:01. | :34:03. | |
that the high standards that providers must meet in order to be | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
able to make such awards are retained. One of the key criteria of | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
obtaining degree awarding powers is the ability to set and maintain | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
academic standards and we expect this to continue. As now, we want or | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
criteria to set a high bar and we plan to set these out in | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
departmental guidance, which the OFS must have regard to. These | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
amendments are unnecessary. Thank you for giving way. I wonder if he | :34:31. | :34:37. | |
can give the House some idea when this guidance might be available. We | :34:38. | :34:45. | |
are planning to put out guidance on this in coming months and the | :34:46. | :34:50. | |
honourable lady will be the first to receive it when it is ready. Turning | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
now to amendments 58, we are committed to protecting the quality | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
and reputation of our universities. We are not changing the core concept | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
of what a university is and we're not planning any wide-ranging | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
changes to the criteria of university title. As now, we only | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
want those providers with all degree awarding powers to be eligible. | :35:11. | :35:14. | |
While students may choose where to study, based on many factors, the | :35:15. | :35:18. | |
example B qualifications they receive, but also the cultural and | :35:19. | :35:21. | |
social opportunities, one size does not fit all the top as independent | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
and autonomous institutions higher education providers are best placed | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
to decide what experiences they want to offer to students and the local | :35:30. | :35:34. | |
community. Like now, we intend to set out the details criteria and | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
processes for gaining university title in guidance and not in | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
legislation and we plan to consult on the detail of this prior to | :35:44. | :35:52. | |
publication. We have had a number of interesting points made in this | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
debate on this group. I would like to conclude by thanking honourable | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
members for their responses to the amendments brought forward. To | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
enshrine the OFS duty to monitor and report on financial stability, | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
sustainability, to ensure there is an OFS board member to represent | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
promote the student interest, to promote institutional autonomy | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
further and to compile providers to publish student protection plans. I | :36:16. | :36:23. | |
think he is coming to his end and I wonder if he's able to make any | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
comment on our clause 15. I did touch on that at the start I | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
believe. Honourable members opposite proposed a commission for lifelong | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
learning in their new clause 15 and the government is obviously strongly | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
committed to lifelong education. This is something that I and the | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
Secretary of State for Education had taken a very close interest in. | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
Studying part-time and later in life rings enormous benefits, both for | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
individuals and employers as well as the general economy. Alongside our | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
higher education reforms we are reforming bad education including | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
incrementing the skills plan published earlier this year and | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
including through the recent introduction of the technical and | :37:10. | :37:12. | |
further education Bill, which had its second Reading last week I | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
believe. The government committed in the last budget to review the gaps | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
in support for lifetime learning, including part-time flexible study. | :37:21. | :37:27. | |
That review is currently ongoing. Higher education already offers | :37:28. | :37:29. | |
flexible options for the thousands of the jaw students each year who | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
want to study in addition as much work underway to expand access to | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
lifelong learning through a variety of routes to suit learners. I am | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
confident these reforms as the others in this Bill will have a | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
positive impact on lifelong learning or otherwise. | :37:45. | :37:56. | |
I call where street to move. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I am grateful | :37:57. | :38:25. | |
for the opportunity. Also to speak about new clauses in this particular | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
concerning student finance. Millions of people across the UK have been | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
mis-sold loans and will end up paying thousands of pounds more than | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
expected as a result. The perpetrator of this mis-selling | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
scandal is not an unscrupulous high street bank or a payday lender, it | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
is in fact our own Government. The victims of this mis-selling scandal | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
are current students and graduates who were mis-sold student loans on | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
the basis of false promises. The fast majority of students, | :38:59. | :39:04. | |
Government backed loans are an essential income revenue. Also to | :39:05. | :39:13. | |
help with their studies, rising cost of accommodation, food, course | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
materials and also the opportunity to make the most of their student | :39:17. | :39:19. | |
experience. In England, students are able to take out attrition fees and | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
an additional maintenance fees of up to pounds a year to cover their | :39:27. | :39:31. | |
living costs. -- ?11,000. As a result of these changes, English | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
students leave university with the highest amount of debt in the | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
Western world. Grants for the poorest students, scandalously those | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
from the low income households graduate the most indebted. It is a | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
terrible inequity in the system and one I am glad to see the | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
frontbencher addressing this afternoon. Many people will not have | :39:56. | :40:03. | |
forgotten it is not in this house where it was taken, it is down the | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
corridor and up the stairs, on the basis of a statutory instrument. It | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
is not the way a Government should conduct major conditions around | :40:13. | :40:15. | |
student finance. Students are fine and Mac families will solve these | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
loans on a series of simple promises. They will only be repaid | :40:20. | :40:26. | |
once they university. They will only be repaid once you start any more | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
than ?21,000 a year. We will repay everything. The good news is that | :40:33. | :40:48. | |
from April 2017,... The previous Chancellor's Autumn Statement was | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
buried an announcement that the payment threshold will in fact be | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
frozen at ?21,000. As a result, graduates will end up paying more | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
each month and thousands of pounds more over the 30 year lifetime of | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
their loans. Worst of all, this change will not just affect future | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
students who can take a conscious decision to sign up to these we | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
payment decisions, they will also affect thousands of existing | :41:13. | :41:15. | |
students and graduates who took out their loans in good faith on the | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
promise that the repayment threshold would increase from 2017. Not only | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
will this retrospective change fly in the pace of good governance, it | :41:27. | :41:33. | |
is also deeply regressive. It is estimated that half of graduates | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
will not pay off their loans before they are written off by the | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
Government. These are by definition the students who are... The richest | :41:41. | :41:48. | |
graduates will be able to repay their debts more swiftly and a crew | :41:49. | :41:57. | |
less interest. People are furious, money expert's Martin Lewis, in what | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
was an astonishing performance in the evidence session to the Bill | :42:04. | :42:05. | |
committee described the Government's decision to break it's and -- it's | :42:06. | :42:14. | |
commitment to students is abominable. This change is made | :42:15. | :42:24. | |
entirely permissible and reasonable. As Martin Lewis said, looking at | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
students as consumers, if they had borrowed money from a commercial | :42:30. | :42:34. | |
lender, the Financial Conduct Authority would have struck out in a | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
second. The idea that five years after would have gone up from 21,000 | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
pounds later. The average earnings payment will be frozen. It is | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
important to pay in mind that the Government's commitment to students | :42:51. | :42:52. | |
and applicants was not just any marketing material of Government, | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
those who understandably assume the commitments made by ministers would | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
be lasting commitments, it was also written in black and white by the | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
former higher education minister, now the Lord Willis. I have no doubt | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
having worked with Lord Willits over the years that he made that | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
undertaking in good faith. He could not have possibly known that a | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
future Chancellor of a future Government would not only break that | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
commitment, but would apply it retrospectively. The point is this, | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
banks would not get away with this mis-selling on the scale and neither | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
should our Government. That is why I have teamed up with Martin Lewis to | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
put forward amendments to the bill this afternoon and I am delighted | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
that the amendments have cross-party support that would stop ministers | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
making retrospective changes to student loans that would be lies | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
interesting students and graduates. New clause to would put in place and | :43:50. | :43:56. | |
architecture through the... Independent advisers. They would | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
retroactively make changes to student payments. Visit to the | :44:04. | :44:10. | |
benefit of the majority of graduates? Does the Government | :44:11. | :44:19. | |
believe that the case as a result of consultation? Has the Government | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
made a case that this would be progressive in effect would help | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
some of the most disadvantaged students or graduates? If it were | :44:29. | :44:35. | |
the case, the graduate may be able to proceed. This house would not | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
want the graduate to stop it from continuing. But it would do is | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
prevent ministers behaving in the way that previous Chancellor did in | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
making changes in the Autumn Statement and applied | :44:55. | :44:55. | |
retrospectively after commitments had been made in faith. New clause | :44:56. | :45:01. | |
three would also bring student loans within the scope of the Financial | :45:02. | :45:05. | |
Conduct Authority. Clearly, in spite of an independent student loans | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
company, ministers have still found ways of flouting it to the detriment | :45:11. | :45:18. | |
of students and graduates which is appalling. Thank you Honourable | :45:19. | :45:27. | |
friend for giving way. He is making a powerful case, does he think that | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
in another context this behaviour could be described as fraudulent? | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
Yes. I agree. This is why the student loan system should be | :45:39. | :45:46. | |
brought in line with the financial conduct. Had a payday lender or a | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
bank dealt in this way, there would be outrage here. There would be an | :45:55. | :46:02. | |
investigation of the company, the Treasury would look into it. It | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
seems as though the Chancellor can just make a decision in the Autumn | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
Statement. This is fundamentally an issue of trust. What is to stop | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
future governments from making changes further down line in terms | :46:21. | :46:27. | |
of interest rates, repayment periods, thresholds? On that basis, | :46:28. | :46:36. | |
how could current or prospective students know the promises made | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
today be kept tomorrow? To be honest, for me this is personal. | :46:41. | :46:48. | |
Very personal. Some years ago, I agreed with Martin Lewis from | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
money-saving expert to work with the coalition Government on an | :46:54. | :46:55. | |
independent task force of student finance information. Martin was | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
obviously invited to do it because of his widespread reputation as one | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
of the most trusted people in the country when it comes to financial | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
advice on saving consumers money. It was felt quite rightly by Lord | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
Willits that Martin would be an independent voice on these matters | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
that people would trust. Martin in turn asked me to work with him as | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
his deputy with agreement with Lord Willits because I had completed a | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
turn at the National Union of Students. Decisions made by | :47:30. | :47:36. | |
successive governments in student finance, I believed it was | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
absolutely critical that whether or not I believed the student finance | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
system was rightly designed, it would be appalling if a single | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
student was deterred from applying to university on the basis of | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
misunderstanding the information. If students of the information in | :47:56. | :47:57. | |
student finance system and decide to make a different choice, a | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
reasonable choice, that is for them. It would be a travesty if a single | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
student was deterred on the basis of misunderstanding and missed | :48:06. | :48:10. | |
information. We went round the country with schools and colleges | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
and universities, in the media. We promoted the Government's system. | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
Not in terms of its merits, but in terms of the facts behind the | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
system. To serve what I thought was an important public duty and | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
purpose. We were misled inadvertently, but we have also | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
therefore misled students and graduates across the country. We | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
told them the threshold would go up in line with earnings from April | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
2000 and 17. That is what we were told by governments at the time. | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
That is what students, teachers, parents, family members, advisers | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
were also led to believe. I think the Government needs to reflect very | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
carefully on what message it will send to each of those groups if | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
future governments will come along and retrospectively change the | :49:07. | :49:08. | |
system to suit the Treasury. It is a terrible precedent that undermines | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
trust, not just in the student finance system, but trust in | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
politics as a whole. We are not so far from a general election or | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
indeed from a referendum campaign to know that trust in politics in this | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
country is at rock bottom. People don't trust politics or politicians. | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
My experience of misplaced, actually for our disagreements, I have great | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
pride in our political system. The way it works. When it comes to | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
decisions like these, I completely understand why politicians are held | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
in such low regard. Too many occasions politicians have said one | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
thing and another. Higher education and student finance in particular, | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
politicians have said one thing and done another. On this particular | :50:00. | :50:06. | |
student finance system, it seems to me that since the coalition put | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
their reforms through, with cross-party agreement and to be fair | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
to them some concessions given to the liberal Democrats in Government, | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
every single one of those concessions are being undone. | :50:20. | :50:22. | |
Student grants have been scrapped. The emphasis on participation in the | :50:23. | :50:29. | |
number of respect is now weaker. Now we find that many of the actual | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
repayment conditions that the former Deputy Prime Minister would argue | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
with some of the more progressive elements, those are also being | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
undone. This is an issue about trust in the student finance system, but | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
is also fundamentally about trust in politics as a whole. Martin Lewis | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
has said if you sign a contract, both sides should keep to it. If you | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
advertise a loan, the lenders should be held to the terms it was sold | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
under. I think it is a total disgrace, but although the UK is | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
widely regarded around the world for its excellent rules, there seems to | :51:10. | :51:15. | |
be one exception which is student loan contracts. That is why I hope | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
that this week the new Chancellor will take the opportunity before | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
this change kicks in to reverse the decision in his Autumn Statement. It | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
would go some way in the part of the Chancellor and the Prime Minister to | :51:30. | :51:32. | |
rebuilding trust in politics. I would also urge the Government to | :51:33. | :51:39. | |
support new clause two, new clause three and new clause six which would | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
make sure that no Government could be tempted to behave in this way | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
again. It is scandalous, it is unjustifiable and it sets a very | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
dangerous precedent. That is why I hope that we will see some progress | :51:54. | :51:59. | |
on this today. The question is that new clause to... Sorry. New clause | :52:00. | :52:13. | |
to, student support. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. Women reformed | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
student speaker in 2011, we put in place a system that fact when we. -- | :52:18. | :52:29. | |
when we.... ?31 billion by 2017, 2018. It is vital to our future and | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
economic success that it remain sustainably funded. Lastly, the | :52:38. | :52:39. | |
Leader of the Opposition announced that he was keen to scrap tuition | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
fees. Senior Labour figures have criticised the saying it is not a | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
credible promise to make. Lord Mandelson noting that Labour had to | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
be honest about the cost of providing higher education. Of | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
course, it was not just Lord Mandelson. The former Shadow | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
Chancellor, Ed balls, went further when he noted that this party's | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
failure was a blot on Labour's copybook. The opposition need to | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
explain how they would fund their alternatives. The Labour Party | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
themselves has said that scrapping tuition fees and restoring | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
maintenance grants would cost ?10 billion. At a conservative estimate, | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
this would cost ?40 billion over a five-year parliament. Not allowing | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
high quality institutions to increase their fees by inflation | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
would differ Glik be ?3 billion. The party opposite would like to go | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
further still, increasing the repayment threshold for post-2012 | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
June loans by average earnings would cost over ?6 billion in the end of | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
this Parliament. opinion say where is all this money | :53:48. | :53:58. | |
going to come from? By contrast, the OECD has praised our student loan | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
system that this government has introduced in England as that of the | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
one of the countries in the world to have figured out a sustainable | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
approach to higher education finance. PS talking about | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
affordability and sustainability systems so wouldn't even knowledge | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
that when the proposals to change the student funding system were put | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
to this house in 2012 it was on the understanding from his predecessor | :54:26. | :54:35. | |
that the uncollectible level of student debt would be at around 28%. | :54:36. | :54:43. | |
That prediction was rubbished by many experts within the sector and | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
indeed from these benches and gradually, over the lifetime of the | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
parliament, it went up into the 30s and 40s to a point where it became | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
unsustainable and it was for that reason that the unsustainability of | :54:55. | :54:57. | |
the system that the government created with dealt with by then | :54:58. | :55:02. | |
imposing that burden back on the students by burying the charges and | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
burying the deal on student loans my honourable friend has described. I | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
just want to point out that the estimations of the charge are still | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
in that ballpark with current estimates of the charge being | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
between 20 and 25%, so not substantially different. Turning to | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
New Clause two, the honourable member has suggested an independent | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
panel should approve any changes to terms and conditions to student | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
loans but the key terms and conditions government repayment of | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
loans as set out under section 22 of the teaching and higher Education | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
Act, the repayment aviators are subject to scrutiny under the | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
negative procedure, which allows parliament called a debate on any | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
amendments. It is right that Parliament, rather than an unelected | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
panel, should continue to have the final say on the loan terms and | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
conditions. I am grateful to the Minister for giving I anticipated he | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
would make the point about the terms and conditions, which is why I is a | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
destitute loans should be regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority. | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
The sad truth is I agree with him, as New Clause six suggests, it | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
should be members of both houses that have a role in shaping this, | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
but clearly ministers, whether in the Treasury Department for | :56:24. | :56:25. | |
Education, has shown they cannot be trusted to hold to their word. That | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
is why the amendment has been put forward. The honourable member | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
mentions the Financial Conduct Authority and I just remind him that | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
it was under the last Labour government that Parliament was | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
invited to confirm, as it did, that student loans were exempt from | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
regulation under the consumer credit act when the then Labour government | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
passed the sale of student loans at, say the honourable member should | :56:54. | :56:55. | |
look back at his own party's record on this issue. Turning to New Clause | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
three, which proposes student loans should be regulated at the Financial | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
Conduct Authority, I share his desire to ensure that students are | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
protected but student loans are not like the loans regulated by the SCA. | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
They are not run for profit and they are available to all, irrespective | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
of their financial history. Repayment depend on income and the | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
interest rate charged is limited by legislation. The loans are written | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
off after 30 years with no detriment to the borrower. That is why lenders | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
are collated by the FPA are obliged to assess all of them are worth and | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
the affordability and suitability of the loan product of each borrower. | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
By the F C 80 regulation loans this could affect the ability of some | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
students to obtain them. I am grateful to him for giving way. It | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
would be perfectly possible for them to regulate within the scope of the | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
student finance system. He has talked about the suitability of | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
borrowers. I am talking about the suitability of lenders to keep to | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
their word. I am not asking the FCA the reggae students I am asking them | :58:07. | :58:08. | |
to regulate ministers who cannot be trusted. -- to regulate students. | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
Key terms set out in legislation. It is law that binds us. We are subject | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
to scrutiny and oversight of Parliament. FCA legislation is | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
unnecessary. Our system allows the government three subsidised loans to | :58:28. | :58:30. | |
make a conscious investment in the skills base of our country. I would | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
have thought members opposite would welcome that. I tend now to New | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
Clause five, which would revoke the 2015 student support regulations. | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
These regulations replaced maintenance grants and loans, which | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
increased support for students on below listing comes by over 10%. | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
Breaking these regulations would reduce the support available for | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
students from some of the most disadvantaged backgrounds while | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
costing the taxpayer over ?2.5 billion per year. Opposition | :59:01. | :59:02. | |
scaremongering about this policy risks deterring students from | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
attending university. The sustainable system we have put in | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
place has enabled us to remove the cap on student numbers and offer | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
more support for living costs than ever before. I tend now to new | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
clauses six and ten, which would require the repayment threshold for | :59:20. | :59:22. | |
income contingent student loans to increase in line with either | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
earnings or prices. Loan repayments continue to be based on the ability | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
to pay and graduate earning less than ?21,000 were not affected by | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
the threshold free. If you benefit from that university education you | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
are likely going to add more than taxpayers who don't go to | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
university, so it is only fair that graduates should contribute to the | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
cost of their education. Operating the repayment threshold for income | :59:50. | :59:51. | |
contingent student loans as New Clause six proposes would cost ?5 | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
billion in the first year due to a reduction in the value of the loan | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
book. Thereafter, it would increase the reasons and budgeting charge by | :00:01. | :00:11. | |
about 7%. -- the resort and budgeting charge. Is that ?5 billion | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
annual running costs? That is the crews in the capital value of the | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
loan book. The cost of upgrading as a New Clause ten proposes would be | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
less but still significant. These costs would need to be paid for by | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
the taxpayers, many of whom would be any less than the graduates who | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
benefit from the threshold increase. I tend now to New Clause ten, which | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
relates to access to support for students recognise as needing | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
protection. This is an important issue raised by the member for | :00:44. | :00:50. | |
separate central. We have discussed this with regard to student support | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
regulations. I am pleased to say that you come to this country and | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
obtain international protection already able to access student | :00:58. | :01:00. | |
support. Our regulations have for some time include provision for | :01:01. | :01:03. | |
those granted refugee status or humanitarian protection and their | :01:04. | :01:09. | |
family members. Those persons entering the UK under the Syrian | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
relocation scheme are granted humanitarian protection and are | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
eligible, like UK national scholar to obtain student support and home | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
of the status after only three years of residence in the UK. Persons on | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
the programme are not precluded from applying for refugee status if they | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
consider they meet the criteria. Those with refugee status are | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
uniquely allowed to access student support immediately, privilege not | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
afforded to UK nationals or those granted other forms of leave. There | :01:40. | :01:41. | |
is distinction in international law between such status and those in | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
need of humanitarian protection. Recently, the Supreme Court upheld | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
the government's policy of requiring most persons, including UK citizens, | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
to be lawfully resident in the UK for at least three years immediately | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
prior to starting their course in order to be eligible for student | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
support. This amendment would allow people who may subsequently be | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
required to leave the country to access taxpayer funding for the | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
study. Mr Speaker, the last group includes technical government | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
amendments related to alternative student finance and unless | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
honourable members are interested then I will move onto my conclusion. | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
But government is committed to a sustainable and fair student funding | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
system. We are seeing more people going to university than ever before | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
and record numbers of students on disadvantaged backgrounds. Our | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
funding system has enabled us to lift the cap on student numbers and | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
with it, the cap on aspiration are represented. I hope the opposition | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
can see that their amendments can be withdrawn that the student funding | :02:41. | :02:43. | |
regime would remain sustainable, working in the best interests of | :02:44. | :02:53. | |
students and taxpayers. I rise to speak to New Clause eight, which the | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
Minister has briefly addressed, although I think his anticipation of | :02:57. | :03:08. | |
this clause understates and misrepresents the actual position. | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
Let me explain. New Clause eight, on which I think there is support on | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
both sides of the House and I think there was some discomfort on the | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
government benches in committee when it was voted down. New Clause eight | :03:21. | :03:27. | |
would allow all refugees resettled the UK, as well as young people | :03:28. | :03:31. | |
having made an application for asylum granted a form of leave other | :03:32. | :03:37. | |
than refugee status, to access student finance and home bees and it | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
would be of particular benefit to Syrian refugees being resettled to | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
the UK through the government's policy. It is perhaps not surprising | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
there is support for it on both sides of the House. Only small | :03:51. | :03:57. | |
numbers are going to be affected but as those of us who have dealt with | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
such cases will know, this will have a huge impact for the individuals. | :04:01. | :04:08. | |
So, let me explain the context. Currently, individuals with refugee | :04:09. | :04:14. | |
status are able to access student finance and qualify for home fees | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
status from the moment that they are awarded their protection and that is | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
where the minister was being economical with the truth in his | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
anticipation and comments about this amendment. Because, those with a | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
slightly different status, that of humanitarian protection, are treated | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
differently. Those with humanitarian protection have to be able to show | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
that they have been ordinarily resident for at least three years at | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
the start of the academic year in order to receive financial support. | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
Now, the group most affected by this different definition are those | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
Syrian refugees currently being resettled to the UK under the | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
vulnerable persons resettlement programme as these refugees aren't | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
granted refugee status at humanitarian protection. The result | :05:02. | :05:07. | |
of the current position is that a young Syrian refugee who arrives in | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
the UK today would not qualify for student finance until the start of | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
the academic year 2020. Now, the only exception to this is if they | :05:16. | :05:22. | |
are resettled to Scotland. It the Scottish Government and I commend | :05:23. | :05:28. | |
them for it, had introduced a special fee status of resettled | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
Syrians, allowing them immediate access to student finance. Now, sub | :05:35. | :05:41. | |
clause to a of New Clause eight would ensure that all resettled | :05:42. | :05:48. | |
refugees, no matter what status they are given and no matter where they | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
live in the UK, would be able to access student support immediately. | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
Sub-clause two B would make student finance available to those who are | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
granted the Unitarian protection after making an application for | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
asylum. Now, as set out in immigration rules, Unitarian | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
protection is granted to people who face a real risk of suffering harm | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
if they were to return to their home country. -- humanitarian detection. | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
These include risk of the death penalty, torture, inhumane treatment | :06:20. | :06:29. | |
or armed conflict. The future of those people granted humanitarian | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
protection after applying for asylum is clearly in the UK. In the future | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
is here they should be enabled to build their lives. They should be | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
allowed access university education, not simply to build their lives but | :06:43. | :06:48. | |
to fully contributed our society. Sub-clause two B would also provide | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
access to student finance and home fees status to people have applied | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
for asylum and have been granted and other form of immigration league. | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
Again, in these cases, the government have accepted the | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
immediate future of these individuals is in the UK and so they | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
should be given every opportunity to contribute and develop and yet, they | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
currently face significant hurdles in doing so. The reason is because | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
in 2012 the last government changed the rules, so the potential | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
university students in this situation could no longer access | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
student finance and would also be reclassified as international | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
students. This meant that they would also face higher fees. | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
Unsurprisingly, the Supreme Court found that these rules of the | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
government were discriminatory. I realise the government has not been | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
doing well in the courts recently! This is a slightly earlier case. As | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
a result of the Supreme Court ruling against the government, the | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
government changed the rules and introduced a new criteria of long | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
residents. What that means is prolonged people -- young people who | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
have gone through the asylum process, including those who have | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
arrived at unaccompanied asylum seeking children are unlikely to | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
meet the long residency criteria and they were they will have to watch | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
their parents go off to university, leaving them behind. | :08:18. | :08:28. | |
Have a constituent in just this position. He went through school, | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
did very well, ready to go to university. At the university place | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
a cure, will was told they had not yet met the residency requirement. | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
They had to wait another year or two waiting for it. A waste of their | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
time and potential. A waste of everybody's time. This is the | :08:47. | :08:53. | |
reverse situation, isn't it? He's absolutely right. Not only a waste | :08:54. | :08:59. | |
for the individual, that society cutting off it's noticed by a's | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
phase. It is a waste of potential for all of to benefit that person's | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
higher education. New clause 12 is not about creating special | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
circumstances for refugees, the minister falsely contrasted the | :09:14. | :09:19. | |
position of refugees committeeman at her in protection and UK students. | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
It is not about creating special circumstances refugees and other | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
people arriving in the UK seeking asylum, it is about removing the | :09:31. | :09:33. | |
existing barriers and preventing young people who came to the UK | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
seeking protection who are capable of going to University. I would urge | :09:38. | :09:49. | |
to think again. I rise to add a footnote to clause ten. I figured as | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
possible that other people can't say in the room. Liberal Democrats | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
hesitates in to talk about university fees. I am no particular | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
embarrassment. I voted against top-up fees under Labour, and voted | :10:08. | :10:16. | |
against things in the coalition. Take-up in both cases elite Mac | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
haters went through. I was though unfortunately right in my idea of | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
political consequences of breaking our contract with the political | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
electorate. I believe we were tricked into it by a very clever | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
Chancellor and it involved very little say of what we supposed at | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
the time. It was in fact a very painful process. The member who | :10:42. | :10:51. | |
introduced the secretary said it would mean there would be | :10:52. | :10:59. | |
concessions the Liberal Democrats. So, the policy is quite clearly | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
worsened and we have currently is nothing short of a scandal with the | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
raising of the threshold. The contract has been broken. A | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
one-sided redefinition of the terms of the loan and any other context as | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
Martin Lewis is quite correctly said, this would lead to legal | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
action. It is not possible because of the small print which as far as | :11:28. | :11:33. | |
most undergraduates are concerned is very small indeed. Clause ten is to | :11:34. | :11:49. | |
be avoid repeating this by a minimum level of burden and adjusting it in | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
a rational way. It avoids expectation, it avoids | :11:56. | :11:57. | |
misunderstanding and it avoids what the honourable member mentioned | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
briefly, the lack of trusts. It is absolutely crucial. That surely is | :12:02. | :12:16. | |
the way to go. Thank you. I rise to speak to our amendment new clause | :12:17. | :12:29. | |
six. I rise to speak to talk about new clause five which would revoke | :12:30. | :12:37. | |
the education of 2015 which moved support for students and also to | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
speak on the amendment of new clause six which follows the excellent | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
speech that my honourable friend, member for Ilford, north made on new | :12:47. | :12:58. | |
clauses two and three. At a time when the Government's own social | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
mobility commission only last week has reported that our nation is | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
facing a crisis in social mobility, it is a travesty that I have to | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
stand here today to talk about the problems caused by them scrapping | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
maintenance grants and replacing them with a further loan which we | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
know will disproportionately affect those students coming from a low | :13:20. | :13:23. | |
income background. As this house notes, the students in the UK | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
already faced the highest levels of student debt across any European | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
country. Figures from the IFF 's show that the average student in the | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
UK will leave university saddled with ?44,000 worth of debt. The | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
Sutton Institute and the Sutton trust have suggested that trust will | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
go even higher. This is the average. We know that from low-income | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
backgrounds students. These changes will have consequently made it even | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
higher. On this side of this house, we have pledged to bring back the | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
maintenance grant. My honourable friend underlined that in the | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
committee of this bill and recent commitment of the Labour Party's | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
Northwest conference there was powerful testimony for why we are | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
doing that. It is not simply because we can't afford to lose those people | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
from our economic process, it is not simply because it will help to aid | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
social mobility generally. It is because by doing so we will | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
literally empower hundreds of thousands of people who will | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
otherwise lose their life chances or endanger their chances of losing | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
their life chances under this process. The number of students in | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
that last year before the Government scrapped the grant was half -- | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
500,000. Many came from higher education and further education. If | :14:55. | :15:01. | |
we lose those students are a significant number of those students | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
because they do not take out those loans because they do not want to | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
not able to. We will be weakening still further the progressive | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
weakening this Government has put onto the higher education or FT | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
sector. The moment, some 34,000 students Ashley got backgrounds in | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
the last year before the Government scrapped it. Including, a | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
significant number of people in my own constituency pursuing higher | :15:32. | :15:38. | |
education at the excellent Blackpool College. I would just say to the | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
Minister that there is something rather bizarre about having a bill, | :15:45. | :15:52. | |
the higher education Bill, where they have now put into that | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
legislation the ability for F E colleges to have their own paths. It | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
is perverse to do that and then introduce something which will | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
weaken the lake of support for colleges like that. I do not think | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
the Government thinks in holistic terms about further education. If | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
you take people out of the higher education equation in further | :16:23. | :16:25. | |
education colleges, that is going to weaken the economic and social base | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
of those further education colleges. It is something that the Government | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
doesn't give anywhere near enough attention to. Could the honourable | :16:34. | :16:43. | |
gentleman just allude to howl the Labour Party are intending to pay | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
for all these benefits? I think I am right in saying that it was by a | :16:48. | :16:55. | |
corporation tax. The honourable Lady must be a mind reader. I'm coming | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
that issue. Bringing back the maintenance grant will help over | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
500,000 students from lower and middle income backgrounds to go into | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
higher education. Has it that the Autumn Statement the Chancellor is | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
set to announce a further cut in corporation tax, helping only those | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
at the top. We are asking the Government to reconsider this | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
position. The policy that we are putting forward which has been | :17:21. | :17:24. | |
costed to bring back grants would be the equivalent to less than a 1% | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
rise in corporation tax. Does the Government really believes that this | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
rise would be more beneficial to this country as a whole? We have not | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
got lots of you cannot interject. Rather than a policy that only | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
benefit is a relatively small number of large corporations and not even | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
the big range. If the Government is serious about supporting social | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
mobility, they need to do something actually about it. The Minister has | :18:00. | :18:11. | |
gone on about how all these things, terrible things that were predicted | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
when the introduction of loans would come in, would not come to pass. | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
That is actually not true. Certainly not across the board. We have seen | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
what a disaster the introduction of advanced learning loans for over | :18:23. | :18:29. | |
24-year-olds. Only 50% of ?300 million that was allocated to them | :18:30. | :18:33. | |
has been taken up. That money has been sent straight back to the | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
Treasury. Now unabashed they want to serve up the same recipe to 19 to | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
24-year-olds. I would say to the Minister that it is possible to | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
nudge people will stop I know nudge has been a fashionable phrase in the | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
Conservative Party in recent years and indeed the Lord Willets wrote | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
quite a lot about it, it is also possible to nudge people away from | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
things as well as towards them. I note that all of the groups you | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
desperately need higher education access, women, disabled people, | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
people from the black and minority ethnic communities, care leavers and | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
for all of those people equality impact assessment as the Minister | :19:11. | :19:13. | |
well knows on grants and loans let out of the bag the difficulties that | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
they would have. No wonder ministers were so keen to bury this issue and | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
delegated a Legislation committee. It took our efforts and bring it to | :19:22. | :19:27. | |
an opposition day to have a decent debate on it. So, I would say to the | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
Government that you need to think again in this particular area and I | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
want to give notice that we will be pressing for a vote on the new | :19:37. | :19:45. | |
clause five. Thank you very much. I am very grateful to the honourable | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
gentleman. How can he then explained that the figures to cover the 12 | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
billion actually come out at a rise between four and 5% on corporation | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
tax rather than the 1% that he just stated? Surely, isn't it the case | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
that we need business and industry to be making money in order to | :20:03. | :20:08. | |
service the jobs and have the opportunities for students once they | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
leave? A lot more than two seconds, I will forgive the honourable Lady. | :20:14. | :20:21. | |
We need to move on to close six. We need to look at this particular | :20:22. | :20:24. | |
issue in the context of the proposal that we have made and that I've | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
already alluded to. Let me move on to speak about new clause six. This | :20:29. | :20:34. | |
is yet another regressive policy to have come and to have been | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
highlighted in the course of this bill. We have already talked already | :20:39. | :20:46. | |
about significant issues that area. The students will in turn end up | :20:47. | :20:49. | |
having to pay back more than they loaned as a greater proportion of | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
there. Those who have, more would be given because they can pay those | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
back more speedily. Those who have not, more will be taken. The | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
Government seems to be disregarding this fact in their education policy. | :21:03. | :21:09. | |
There is a reason this is mentioned, to death a demographic dimension to | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
this as well. -- demographic dimension. In the last 12 months, | :21:14. | :21:24. | |
the ability to hit a threshold which was supposed to be upgraded on a | :21:25. | :21:31. | |
regular basis, was more reasonable. Students in part of a country where | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
starting incomes for graduates are much lower than in London and the | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
south-east will be particularly badly hit by this particular | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
proposal. Would he accept that the point he is making, students are hit | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
particularly in cases like Northern Ireland where starting salaries are | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
much lower? Woody also accept that the point that the Minister has made | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
about the affordability of this is really a red herring. When the loans | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
were sold to the students, surely that was taken into consideration? | :22:05. | :22:06. | |
What was the cost of raising the threshold speed? The Government | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
can't now go back and save you want to rewrite the rules. He is | :22:12. | :22:17. | |
absolutely right. B is right to make the point about the situation for | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
students in Northern Ireland. When we discussed this matter in the | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
opposition day debate and again in the committee, we made the point | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
that both students in Northern Ireland and students in Wales and | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
students in Scotland all of the devolved administrations, their | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
students would be affected by this process. It is a nonsense for the | :22:41. | :22:46. | |
Government to say that this is not going to make any difference. The | :22:47. | :22:54. | |
Minister for Sheffield Central saying that it was now OK, as I | :22:55. | :22:59. | |
said, it is only OK because this Government and that Minister and the | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
rest of his colleagues have created this Frankenstein's monster which is | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
going to create new problems for so many thousands of students. Irony | :23:08. | :23:15. | |
don't think I can better be powerful speech that Martin Lewis gave to the | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
committee on that occasion when it came to give evidence to the | :23:19. | :23:19. | |
committee. The minister may feel this New | :23:20. | :23:27. | |
Clause is unnecessary because the government would never go back on | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
their promises to students, never change the terms of the loan | :23:32. | :23:33. | |
agreement, but unfortunately they have done it once. We would prefer | :23:34. | :23:41. | |
to see this look at properly by government in both houses of | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
parliament and so that is why we want the government to respond to | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
New Clause six. If my honourable friend, the member for Ilford North, | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
pushes he's amendments to a vote, we will support him in it. We give the | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
government warning, whatever the result of the vote tonight, this | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
subject will get an airing and a strong bearing, I am sure, in the | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
House of lords because it is economically, morally, and socially | :24:09. | :24:17. | |
indefensible. The question is that New Clause two B read a second time. | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Of the | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
contrary no. Clear the lobby. Order. The question is that New | :24:23. | :26:08. | |
Clause two be read a second time. As many as are of the opinion, say | :26:09. | :26:10. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". Of the contrary no. Tell us for the noes, | :26:11. | :26:18. | |
Mark Spencer and Jackie all price. Order. Order. The ayes to the right, | :26:19. | :37:26. | |
180. The noes to the left, 278. The ayes 180. The noes to the left, 278. | :37:27. | :37:37. | |
The noes habit. The noes habit. Mr Gordon Marsden of New Clause five | :37:38. | :37:46. | |
formally. The question is that New Clause five be read a second time. | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
Division. Clear the lobby. Order! The question is the new | :37:55. | :39:31. | |
clause five be read a second time. As many of that opinion say aye. On | :39:32. | :39:41. | |
the contrary no. Tellers for the eye, Vicky Foxcroft are marked with. | :39:42. | :39:43. | |
Tellers for the noes. Order! Order. The aye 181, the HE | :39:44. | :51:25. | |
three 200 and sent it. The iMac to the right 181, the no Mac to the | :51:26. | :51:34. | |
left, the no Mac habit. The Na habit. We now come to the third | :51:35. | :51:44. | |
group and the new clause to 11. We will consider the new clause group | :51:45. | :51:47. | |
together on the selection paper. Doctor John Pugh to move. It might | :51:48. | :51:57. | |
be helpful at this time if I spoke about what actually new clause 11 | :51:58. | :52:00. | |
says. So we know what we are speaking about. It says within six | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
months of this act coming into force, and thereafter, we will talk | :52:06. | :52:17. | |
about the EU and non-EU specialist employees in higher education. It | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
contains the critical clause, three, which says that should any report | :52:22. | :52:30. | |
have a deep freeze the number of international employees, the | :52:31. | :52:32. | |
Secretary of State must make an assessment of the impact of such a | :52:33. | :52:42. | |
reduction on UK are I way of making and... We accept post Brexit that | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
research funding have a major anxiety because while we are in the | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
U, there is a huge net benefit to the UK. In cash terms in personal | :52:56. | :53:03. | |
terms, in all terms. Key subjects like science and medicine. I think | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
the Government is doing their best to pour oil on troubled waters with | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
various reassuring mantras, no change yet. We know that. There is | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
going to be vigilance in what the EU are too, so they don't cut as other | :53:18. | :53:19. | |
projects we want to be involved in. There are hopes of continuity and of | :53:20. | :53:32. | |
course there is always the prospect yawned the EU. Sadly, none of this | :53:33. | :53:40. | |
is working well. -- prospects beyond the. Anxiety among university is as | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
emphatic as it was to begin with because it is not just about money, | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
it is about people and that is what this amendment is principally about. | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
In some universities, the number of foreign nationals actually working | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
as lecturers and specialist employees is as high as 30% and that | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
contrasts markedly void example with French universities and many other | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
continental universities. It is a feature of the British universities | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
which makes it very different and desirable. Now, recognising that | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
universities are worried about this, we asked by this and I asked Vice | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
Chancellor Chancellor through a survey exactly what the use they | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
have and how concerned they are. I am happy to share the full results | :54:30. | :54:33. | |
with any member who expresses an interest. We asked them, "Are you | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
worried about the certainty of research grants could have a | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
negative impact on standards at UK universities. " 73% said yes. We | :54:43. | :54:51. | |
asked them, "Do you agree it is necessary to agree free movement | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
between the UK and EU to protect research funding? The right to | :54:55. | :55:02. | |
reside and the work of staff and the right of all UK and EU students to | :55:03. | :55:09. | |
study in the EU? " The answer to that was, 83%, yes, they think three | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
movement is crucial. In the process of conducting the survey I got a | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
phone call from a Vice Chancellor who spoke on a more anecdotal, | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
personal view about his own university and he told me of the | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
difficulties academics are currently facing planning their future, | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
thinking ahead, needing to consider, particularly young academics, what | :55:38. | :55:39. | |
they are going to do about their families and wondering where their | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
futures lie. They want certainty and security like most people planning | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
their lives. Towards the end of the conversation he made a shocking | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
confession. All the conversation we had conduct -- conducted, it was my | :55:53. | :56:02. | |
assumption that he was interest, but this Vice Chancellor was in fact | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
Belgian and shared all the concerns he was focusing on behalf of his | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
colleagues. It is a personal issue, this, for a lot of valuable people, | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
skilled people, some of whom are already on university campuses and | :56:19. | :56:25. | |
are facing an increase in prejudice, which is at times hate crime. If | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
these skilled contributors go, some courses won't happen because we need | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
them, that is why we have them in the first place. Some courses will | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
worsen and university life will worsen. Now, the Minister himself is | :56:41. | :56:50. | |
a civilised man and I am sure he wants a diverse university sector | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
and I am sure once the best of EU talents to stay here and to come | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
here. He wouldn't welcome an exodus. He speaks fluent French Sony has a | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
continental mindframe, although it may not be any encouraging thing to | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
describe him as in this state of the government's deliberations. I am | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
sure he would welcome an early warning of any kind of exodus of | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
problem, in the involvement of international lecturers in our | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
educational and university process. This amendment gives him that. | :57:28. | :57:41. | |
UK RI report. The question is that New Clause 11 be read a second time. | :57:42. | :57:55. | |
Carol Monaghan. I would like to speak to amendments 55 and 56. I | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
will start with amendment 56 tabled in my name and the name of my | :58:01. | :58:08. | |
colleague. Proposals to reform UK research Council in this Bill have | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
implications for higher education Scotland. We have concerns about | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
consequences for Scotland's research base. The SNP brought forward an | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
amendment at committee stage that sought to ensure representation on | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
the board of UK RI of people who have relevant experience of | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
Scottish, Welsh and Northern Ireland should higher education sectors as | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
well as understanding of research and innovation policy context and | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
landscape across the whole of the UK. We withdrew this amendment in | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
committee but reserved the right to bring it back at report stage, which | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
we are seeking to do now. We are pleased that the government have | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
listened to SNP in committee stage and have tabled their own amendment | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
on this issue however whilst we welcome the government's | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
acknowledgement of the need for the board UK RI to include experience of | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
devolved administrations, it is disappointing to note that the | :59:03. | :59:04. | |
amendment requires experience of only one of the administrations. | :59:05. | :59:09. | |
This does not properly allow the world about administrations and | :59:10. | :59:14. | |
their policy priorities to be considered within UK RI. UK RI must | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
have an understanding of the whole UK research and innovation landscape | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
and it must act on the interest of all of about administrations, which | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
is why we have decided to bring forward this new amendment because | :59:30. | :59:31. | |
what we have in front of us just now is not equipped to address our | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
concerns and the concerns of stakeholders, stakeholders who | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
include University Scotland, university Wales, Queens University | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
Belfast, Scottish Council for development and industry, NUS | :59:46. | :59:47. | |
Scotland, university and College union Scotland and the Royal Society | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
of Edinburgh. The amendments are not partisan, they call from -- they | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
come from a horror sex University opinion throughout Scotland, Wales | :59:59. | :00:01. | |
and Northern Ireland and have the principle the Scottish Government. | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
-- they come from a horror range of University opinion. Our amendments | :00:08. | :00:16. | |
will ensure that the Bill matches what has been noted in the review. | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
It was said that there was a need to elicit and respond to reset | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
priorities and evidence requirements identified by the devolved | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
administrations. Currently, the Bill does not meet the overarching | :00:34. | :00:43. | |
principles of the review. It is only accountable to the UK Government | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
with principally English interests. We believe the governments chilly | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
governance of UK are ie needs to protect the each other governments | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
within the UK because it doesn't this could lead to a lack of | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
consideration among the research councils and UK's research bodies | :01:03. | :01:14. | |
and other devout nations. I rise to add to the points she was making and | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
note that Welsh universities have priorities in terms of research, not | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
least the low level of funding that Welsh universities get. Probably | :01:25. | :01:31. | |
around 2% as opposed to the 5% of our population. That is a concern in | :01:32. | :01:40. | |
Wales, specifically. I thank the honourable gentleman for his | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
intervention. Scotland does very well out of the research councils | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
and it does well because there is a large research body in Scotland, the | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
research environment is vibrant across our 19 higher education | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
institutes. We want the Secretary of State, the UK Government, to consult | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
the Scottish ministers and their equivalents in other devout | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
ministrations before approving UK RI research and innovation strategies. | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
Otherwise, how can we be certain that new bodies set up in the Bill | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
are in the best interests of the whole of the UK and not just focused | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
on English only priorities? The SNP is proud of our higher education | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
sector and it acknowledges it is valuable to ensure Scotland's | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
cultural, social and economic sector Broad prosper. It is worth over ?6 | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
billion to our economy and we must ensure that this continues. As it | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
stands, this Bill has the potential to harm Scotland's world-renowned | :02:44. | :02:50. | |
research. We need to ensure that about ministrations have an equal | :02:51. | :02:53. | |
say and that their voices are heard within UK RI to ensure this will | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
will be of no detriment to any part of the UK. Moving on to the | :02:58. | :03:05. | |
amendment 55, which is on funding, the integrity of the support | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
financial system must be protected because currently as it stands this | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
Bill does not go far enough to do this. We need to be sure that | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
balanced funding principles are clearly defined within the Bill to | :03:19. | :03:23. | |
ensure the integrity of the financial system set up within | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
cross-border higher education sectors continue. Any flow of funds | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
between reserved and devolved budgets need to be clearly defined | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
and currently the Bill does not address how the balance of funding | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
allocated through competitive funding streams will be supported. | :03:42. | :03:48. | |
There is a serious worry that research England funding could be | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
taken from the UK wide part, which Scotland and other devolved | :03:54. | :03:55. | |
administrations higher education institutes rightly receive a share | :03:56. | :04:04. | |
of. -- UK wide pot. If this pot was to diminish to the detriment of | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
Scottish and Welsh and Northern Ireland sectors. We are already | :04:11. | :04:17. | |
seeing uncertainty over funding for HE thanks to the reckless gamble | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
over Brexit, so is it right that we should also be depriving our higher | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
education institutes from having UK funding taken from them, too? Many | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
stakeholders in Scotland are concerned about the potential | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
hazards will be placed in their way because of this funding structure. | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
This amendment would insure separate funding allocations for the research | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
councils, innovative UK and research England. Whilst Scotland performs | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
well as I have already mentioned in attracting funding from research | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
councils for grants and studentships and fellowships, Scotland does less | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
well in infrastructure spending the research and currently only | :05:05. | :05:14. | |
attracting 5% of UK spending. As with many things, a lot of this | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
spending is concentrated in the South East of England and we want UK | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
RI to have a full overview of the research in the structure across the | :05:23. | :05:31. | |
UK. We are concerned that this clause will allow the Secretary of | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
State after the balance of funding between the research Council. Any | :05:35. | :05:42. | |
grant the UK are RI is funding that should be competitively available | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
throughout the UK. It is therefore necessary to have transparency | :05:47. | :05:49. | |
between what goes to UK RI and what goes to reset England. Even this | :05:50. | :05:55. | |
body will only tribute funds while research infrastructure -- blows to | :05:56. | :06:04. | |
reset England. Given this body will only attribute funds to research | :06:05. | :06:16. | |
infrastructure. If for whatever reason movement of funds had to be | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
made by the secretary of State between research councils and reset | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
England or innovate UK then this must only happen if the Scottish | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
Government and other devolved administrations give consent. This | :06:28. | :06:34. | |
SNP amendment would insure that fairness and transparency will be at | :06:35. | :06:40. | |
the forefront of reserved funding allocation to UK RI and the | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
allocation to research England, sorry, and the allocation to reset | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
England. While also ensuring the balanced hunting principle is | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
measured in relation to the proportion of funding allocated by | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
the Secretary of State for reserved and dissolved the Mayor devolved | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
England only funding and clarity when it might not be achieved. | :07:04. | :07:14. | |
Minister Joe Johnson. Thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
thank honourable colleagues here today prevent these elastic support | :07:19. | :07:20. | |
for our wild cast research and innovation system. -- our world | :07:21. | :07:33. | |
class. It will support fundamental and strategic research, drive | :07:34. | :07:35. | |
forward multi-and interdisciplinary research, support business led | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
innovation and help them out with this links with publicly funded | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
research. UK RI will build on the great work already being undertaken | :07:47. | :07:48. | |
by our research and innovation bodies, it will maximise the benefit | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
to the UK of a government investment of over ?6 billion a year. That is | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
why the Prime Minister this morning announced that by the end of this | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
Parliament, we will invest an additional ?2 billion in reset and | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
development, including through a new industrial strategy challenge fund. | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
This will be led by innovate UK, but our world-class research Council | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
and, once established, by UK RI itself. | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
This is a clear testament to how Caen to Canon bring greater | :08:22. | :08:37. | |
outcomes. UKRI will of course give insight into the innovation | :08:38. | :08:40. | |
strengthen business needs of the entire UK. Read recognised the | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
importance of UKRI board members having the appropriate. Way of | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
filling these roles. When making these key appointments, the | :08:52. | :09:01. | |
secretary will have a way of the research Systems in one more of the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
systems. Turning to amendment 42 on research England's religion should | :09:06. | :09:14. | |
with it's evolved counterparts -- it's evolved counterparts. I would | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
highlight instead the new clause I introduced a committee stage. That | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
clause ensures research England is able to work with its... The current | :09:28. | :09:39. | |
provision in the bill enables this. Turning to amendments 53 and 54, | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
research and innovation must be joined up at the heart of our | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
industrial strategy. Incorporating innovate UK will bring benefits to | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
UK businesses, researchers and to the UK as a whole. It will help | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
businesses locate possible partners, and outputs better aligned with | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
their needs. Researchers will also benefit from greater expertise. It | :10:05. | :10:12. | |
will deliver strategic, agile and impactful approach to UKRI | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
portfolio. It would be a huge mistake, to set up UKRI as the | :10:17. | :10:26. | |
mission elsewhere. The big challenges facing our country | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
require more partnership between our great research base, innovate UK and | :10:33. | :10:39. | |
are research. The CBI has said, and I'm quoting, the latest proposals of | :10:40. | :10:51. | |
integrating these two bring and innovate UK's business facing face | :10:52. | :11:02. | |
to the UK. This creates the best conditions for fast-growing dynamic | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
businesses to thrive. Then we reassure the house that directed | :11:06. | :11:11. | |
most the importance of innovate UK maintaining its focus. That is why | :11:12. | :11:17. | |
it protects their focus and autonomy in the delivery of its actions. We | :11:18. | :11:25. | |
will work with companies to deal risk, enable and support innovation | :11:26. | :11:32. | |
that will grow the UK innovation. It will also is the appointed and | :11:33. | :11:41. | |
academic and business representative to the UKRI board. It will champion | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
business interests. To fully realise our potential, we need to respond to | :11:50. | :11:53. | |
a changing world, to anticipate future requirements and to make sure | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
that we have the structures in place for the benefit of the whole | :11:59. | :12:06. | |
country. To the ... It is also important that we deliver the tax | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
ability that the structure of our landscape provides. Turning to | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
amendment 55, the Government has already committed to setting out | :12:16. | :12:18. | |
separate funding streams for each of the councils which will be | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
established in the annual Grant letter. It is also important that UK | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
are I retain some flexible team to manage it's funds and ensure best | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
value for its resources. Also seamers administration for multi-and | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
interdisciplinary research. A small scale, practical and mutually agreed | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
the and is essential for any business with complex projects. This | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
would allow councils to adapt to project timing. Also allow to | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
support interdisciplinary councils. I can also reassure honorary members | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
that the Secretary of State will not agree to UK are right in such a way | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
as to result in a net change in research England's hypothesis sized | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
budget over a period of time. This will be cleared to UKRI. Amendment | :13:16. | :13:23. | |
50 six. I will be very clear the UK wide research and innovation funding | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
as conducted through the research councils and innovate UK are | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
reserved issues and working to need to be so after the transition to | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
UKRI. It is already the secretary is a studio as it is mine, to work for | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
the whole of the UK. It is the responsibility of the research | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
councils and innovate UK to operate on a equal basis across the UK. | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
Primarily, this is achieved by funding projects selected through | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
open competition on the basis of excellence. That they do so | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
effectively is rightly recognised as the research and innovation | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
communities as recognised by the formal Vice Chancellor of Dundee in | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
the evidence he gave to the Bill committee. It functions well across | :14:08. | :14:17. | |
the political landscape because the UK Government and devolved | :14:18. | :14:18. | |
administrations work together to make it do so. We would not seek to | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
bind the UK are writing to a restricted process of consultation, | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
as proposed in this amendment. Turning now to new clause 11, I | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
absolutely agree with the honourable member... To clarify, I'm sure the | :14:31. | :14:37. | |
record will show whether or not he said earlier that it would be | :14:38. | :14:44. | |
including a least one personal morbidly relevant experience in | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
relations to these Wales and Northern Ireland. It is one person | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
with relevant experience or is it one person or more? It is at least | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
one person. With the experience of one or more of the devolved | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
administrations. The Government has tabled an amendment that places a | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
duty on the Secretary of State to have the desirability of having at | :15:10. | :15:12. | |
least one such member to be absolutely explicit. For the | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
individual councils, we think it is right that the UK RIA is free to | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
appoint the very best people for these roles. We expect UKRI to have | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
the relevant skills and experience both nationally and internationally. | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
Turning to new clause 11, I absolutely agree with the honourable | :15:35. | :15:40. | |
member. For that there must be proper monitoring of the diversity | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
of the workforce. We take this seriously and collect and discuss | :15:45. | :15:54. | |
such data. We remain as I've said before fully open to scientists and | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
researchers from across the UK and we usually value the contribution of | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
the EU and international star. There has been no change to the rights and | :16:03. | :16:07. | |
status of EU nationals in the UK or of UK citizens in the EU as the | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
result of referendum. As our Prime Minister said in a letter, only five | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
days after she came into office, I am quoting, our research is enriched | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
by the best minds of Europe and around the world. Providing | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
reassurance to these individuals and researchers working in this area | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
will be a priority for the Government. We have articulated the | :16:33. | :16:41. | |
same things. Does you not recognise that the Government of failing in | :16:42. | :16:43. | |
that objective because around the country we are receiving reports of | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
EU academics saying that the future is not here because we have not had | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
the reassurances that we need. There is no higher authority in the | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
Government of the Prime Minister and we have heard from her that is | :17:00. | :17:02. | |
absolutely her priority to provide the assurances that researchers want | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
and need. David Davis, the Brexit Secretary of State has similarly | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
given the assurances in reminding the EU nationals living and working | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
in the UK that those of them that have been here for five years | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
already are entitled to indefinite leave to remain. That I understand | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
relates to about 80% of the group. Those who have been here for six | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
years, entitled to apply for dual nationality. We want the brilliant | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
researchers from other European countries to continue to enrich our | :17:36. | :17:42. | |
universities and student experiences. We expect them to be | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
able to do so. As long as UK nationals in other European | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
countries receive reciprocal rights in those countries. Does he | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
appreciate that those statements are cold comfort to people in that | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
position and we need far more certainty to make sure that the | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
higher education institution can flourish as they should. We can | :18:06. | :18:11. | |
reiterate as a Government that we value an welcome their presence. It | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
is of crucial importance. We want them to stay. We can't be more | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
categorical than that. Turning to amendment is 43, 44, 45, 57 and 50 | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
nine. I agree that cooperation between the OFS and UKRI is | :18:31. | :18:40. | |
critical. Closes it is important to restrict the... Work together | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
through legislation as will be required by these amendments. We | :18:47. | :18:48. | |
have recently set out further details of the areas where we expect | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
both bodies to work together in a fact sheet published on the 15th of | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
November. One key area explains any fact sheet where we believe the two | :18:58. | :19:05. | |
should work in close cooperation is the provisions of the Bill. Another | :19:06. | :19:13. | |
joint area of working within UKRI and OFS is postgraduate training. I | :19:14. | :19:21. | |
would like to thank the honourable members for Sheffield Centre for | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
raising this. While the functions of UK RIA as drafted in the Bill to | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
enable this the Government has tabled this to provide absolute | :19:33. | :19:36. | |
clarity that UKRI does continue to support postgraduate training. It | :19:37. | :19:42. | |
has been suggested an amendment to our amendment to ensure it includes | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
social sciences, and I can assure her that this is already the case | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
because clause 104 ensures that all references to science or the | :19:52. | :19:53. | |
humanities include social sciences and the arts. Our support for | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
postgraduate training will be across the spectrum of disciplines. The OFS | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
will be responsible for protecting the interests of all students, | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
including all postgraduate students. They will work together to share | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
understanding to support and the Bill makes provisions to this. I | :20:13. | :20:14. | |
hope honourable members recognise the considerable progress made in | :20:15. | :20:21. | |
ensuring this bill meets the needs. I believe the UKRI will have an | :20:22. | :20:31. | |
agile and into interdisciplinary way of dealing with the research | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
capability. This is fundamental to strengthening the UK's strategy and | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
I hope that they will withdraw their amendments. Thank you. I rise to | :20:44. | :20:51. | |
speak to our amendments. Amendment 42, 43, 44 and 45. It deals with the | :20:52. | :20:59. | |
collaboration between the OFS and UKRI two. I will deal with the | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
Minister's Commons in a moment. I want to start by speaking to the | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
amendment 40 two. This amendment would allow research England to | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
coordinate with this devolved counterpart. I believe and we | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
believe on the Labour benches that this is an important principle to | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
establish on the face of the bill. On the Bill, Bill committee, there | :21:25. | :21:33. | |
were no members on the bench from Wales or Northern Ireland. But in | :21:34. | :21:36. | |
Wales and Northern Ireland, universities will be significantly | :21:37. | :21:40. | |
affected by this process. They will also be affected if the process with | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
the new bodies is not universally seen to be fair in sharing out its | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
attentions as an important time in the university system. Not to | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
consider including such provisions on the face of the bill is a great | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
mistake. Surely, we should consider those interests in the context of | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
setting up a new research body. I think this is highly relevant to the | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
future of those research bodies. The Minister will be well aware that the | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
research bodies generally are, and I will show you will hear more about | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
these to the other place, research bodies generally are still not | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
entirely nullified by the various reassurances that have been given. | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
In particular the role of the research councils and while we have | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
not pressed further any of the amendments of the decision we have | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
had in the committee because of pressures of time in this bill, I am | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
sure and I assure him that there will be honourable, noble friends | :22:42. | :22:47. | |
and another place you will want to scrutinise what he has said and what | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
he is planning very much in detail. These are not arcane, these are not | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
arcane arguments about technical details because one of the problems | :22:59. | :23:02. | |
with the Government on this bill is that they have overlooked a vital | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
factor. There is little sense of a knock-on effect on all of this on | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
what I describe as the importance of the brand UK plc and particularly in | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
view of the uncertainties that have arisen further since the advent of | :23:22. | :23:22. | |
Brexit. I am not the only person to have | :23:23. | :23:32. | |
made that observation, other commentators have also done so. 18 | :23:33. | :23:43. | |
providers are competitive. If we are to have a trusted UK brand it is | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
important that all the integral parts of the UK feel that they have | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
a say at the table. They do not feel that and there is and dissension | :23:54. | :23:58. | |
then at a time when the UK Government needs to be doing | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
everything they can in the Brexit negotiation to safeguard that UK | :24:03. | :24:05. | |
brand there will be a weak link. There needs to be a proper UK wide | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
strategy to safeguard the positions of our researchers as indeed the | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
honourable gentleman, the member for Southport, has mentioned. For now | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
the amendments which the SNP have tabled, amendments 55 and 56, are | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
doing a valuable service to the governments by waking them up to | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
some of the implications of having a body, thought not what they might | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
wish, that might appear to be to Anglo centric. Reference was made to | :24:38. | :24:47. | |
the Amendment in committee that was given in terms of the devolved | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
nations. And the Welsh Government in particular is concerned that | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
Government amendments 45, which is the UK Government's response to the | :24:57. | :25:04. | |
amendments which was moved in committee to give more input from | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
the devolved nations, is not going to be adequate. Their view on this | :25:08. | :25:13. | |
is simple. Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales, while they may | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
have some similarities, not being English, they are not an homogenous | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
group of countries, and they have very different histories, interests | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
and experiences of both HD, research and innovation and that needs to be | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
reflected in the architecture that has put out. The Minister is being | :25:35. | :25:41. | |
at his most emollient this evening presenting on the back of the | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
announcement today and industrial strategy, this turbo-charged future | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
for UK, powering away and all the rest of it, but the truth of the | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
matter is, and he knows this, the architecture that will need to be | :25:56. | :26:07. | |
constructed and consolidated in UKRI with the devolved administrations is | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
complex. It a period of time. On the subject of Northern Ireland Queen 's | :26:15. | :26:17. | |
University of Belfast has a very extensive partnership with | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
companies, with other universities across the United Kingdom and we are | :26:24. | :26:26. | |
all proud to be British in relation to that. With that in mind I am | :26:27. | :26:32. | |
wondering what consideration does he feel that Government should give to | :26:33. | :26:43. | |
Queens University in their work to provide new cures for cancer and | :26:44. | :26:50. | |
diabetes? I am grateful for the intervention. That would be | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
invidious firmly to single out Queens University over and above any | :26:55. | :27:01. | |
others otherwise I would have my postbag fool. He is right to | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
champion what they are doing. There is an important point here which I | :27:05. | :27:09. | |
am not sure the Government has entirely grasped. The research that | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
is done in Queens University and other universities and devolved | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
administrations does not just depend on whether the Government gets a | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
good Brexit settlement with the European Union, this depends on | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
maintaining the trust and support of those EU nations who we will rely | :27:29. | :27:39. | |
upon to get that sort of investment and post-clinical trials. For | :27:40. | :27:46. | |
example, a lot of charities, and the minister will be where, be a lot of | :27:47. | :27:54. | |
charities, particularly in the heart area and cancer, are concerned that | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
if we do not get a decent settlement and then the problems of being able | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
to have field trials for example in Francophone Africa will become more | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
complicated because we rely on those researchers and the good offices of | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
our EU counterparts in those countries, and I do not think the | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
Government is taking anywhere near enough notice of that particular | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
issue. As I see the architecture of this is complex and it is therefore | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
crucial to get it right. Although the minister might think that some | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
of these amendments and expecting, and that they do not need to go on | :28:33. | :28:38. | |
of the Bill, and I said this to him throughout the first committee | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
stage, he neglects the importance of sending a signal to the devolved | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
administrations and others that their interests are going to be | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
represented. That is why these Amendment have come forward. I want | :28:51. | :28:57. | |
to talk also about our amendments, 43, 44 and 40 five. They would | :28:58. | :29:03. | |
ensure cooperation and information sharing between the OFS and UKRI. | :29:04. | :29:15. | |
The Minister knows obviously that UKRI and innovate have historically | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
done a different things. And again he is at pains to try and reassure | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
us tonight that's all we will get under the new structure is the best | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
of both worlds. Unfortunately there are sometimes when you end up | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
getting the worst of both worlds. One of the things that struck me | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
strongly during the committee and particularly in the evidence | :29:39. | :29:40. | |
sessions is that there still remains, and the honourable member | :29:41. | :29:48. | |
who made the Amendment is relevant in this, there still remains | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
concerns, and the chief executive outlines those concerns and are | :29:53. | :29:54. | |
questioning in the committee stage, as to whether Innovate UK will beat | :29:55. | :30:08. | |
fleet of foot enough to do the things that they have so far been | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
very good at. It is not saying they cannot work, it is just saying the | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
Minister and his officials need to think rather harder about how that | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
process is going to go forward. There is also of course the broader | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
issue in part three of the Bill that the process of separating teaching | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
and research, and in this context the research and the body will mean | :30:33. | :30:34. | |
that issues and activities the interface of teaching and research, | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
the awarding of research degrees, sharing facilities, mates not be | :30:44. | :30:45. | |
effectively identified and supported. | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
I appreciate my honourable friend for giving way. There are a number | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
of institutions who are concerned about this gap between teaching and | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
research. I was quite surprised when my university of Cambridge told me | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
that 89% of people were involved in teaching at university were also | :31:07. | :31:09. | |
involved in research. That integration between the two is | :31:10. | :31:12. | |
absolutely essential and that seems to be what is missing in some | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
peoples eyes in the Bill and is purpose of the Amendment that he is | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
proposing. I thank my honourable friend for his intervention. As the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
MP for Cambridge, I was good to see you at the cutting edge, you are | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
certainly at the coal face of this issue, and it is an issue that has | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
been particularly important to Cambridge University and indeed to | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
Oxford, where the Vice Chancellor has expressed some concerns. It is | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
not the fault of the minister but that is just unfortunate that the | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
time that this is coming through we have had the machinery of Government | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
changes between Department Fred is in and the new expanded departments. | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
Time alone will tell what the benefits of that R. But the problem | :31:58. | :32:03. | |
in the short term as that with the best will in the world that is | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
bedding down process between the relationship with | :32:10. | :32:20. | |
the Department for Education and BRS will be a concern. We have talked | :32:21. | :32:28. | |
about cooperation. Our amendments proposes a mechanism by which this | :32:29. | :32:35. | |
collaboration could be achieved. The Royal Society of as I am sure at the | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
is aware, has suggested that the committee on teaching and research | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
should be established. They welcome as it should, which I am sure | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
honourable members are familiar with, have offered thoughts in this | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
area. Teaching and research are intrinsically linked but that | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
intrinsic link would be lost from higher education if the bond between | :33:01. | :33:06. | |
them were broken. Clause 105 set out the interactions between ISS and | :33:07. | :33:14. | |
UKRI and that is why we strengthen cooperation by replacing the words | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
may with masts because massed in parliamentary and governmental terms | :33:23. | :33:35. | |
as of more use than me. The Royal Society of chemistry has made the | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
same point, they have said there is a risk of separation in teaching and | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
research in the new architecture which will mean that the benefits of | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
research in teaching practices may be lost. Nobody is suggesting it | :33:50. | :33:52. | |
would happen deliberately but that could happen. They say the current | :33:53. | :33:56. | |
strata of the Bill allows for information sharing between UKRI and | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
OFS but that does not however requires cooperation and most | :34:03. | :34:05. | |
directors by the Secretary of State. Other learners bodies and societies | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
have contacted me and I know other honourable members and members of | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
the committee is to make similar points. I know the Minister has | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
referred to his guidance paper, which he has issued, and I thank him | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
for that, and that gives further clarity. I do have to say it comes | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
very belatedly in the day and I wonder if it is more than I to the | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
passing interest in the other place to which this Bill is shortly to be | :34:33. | :34:35. | |
committed rather than keeping us happy down here but nevertheless it | :34:36. | :34:40. | |
is useful. But at the end of the day it still does not set in place an | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
obligation or mechanism for cooperation. It is left to the whim | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
of an individual Secretary of State or university Minister. And as I | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
have said this issue is made more pressing because of the new | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
machinery of Government structure and the shared responsibilities | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
across the two departments. And who knows, in the future, the honourable | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
gentleman may be looking forward to a long period as universities | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
minister but at some point no doubt he will go onwards and upwards, and | :35:11. | :35:13. | |
there is no guarantee that his successor, if it is in this | :35:14. | :35:19. | |
Government or any Government, would have the same share of | :35:20. | :35:21. | |
responsibilities across the two departments, so for all of these | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
reasons, that is why we are suggesting that the Bill be amended | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
to provide that the OFS and UKRI must cooperate without having to be | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
required to do so by the Secretary of State. It is also why, if the | :35:36. | :35:42. | |
honourable members from the Scottish National Party choose to dress their | :35:43. | :35:51. | |
amendments we will support them. I rise to speak to amendments 57, 59 | :35:52. | :36:06. | |
and 17. Amendment 57 seeks to ensure that before authorising research | :36:07. | :36:14. | |
awards the OFS must consult with UKRI including research and England, | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
the appropriate national academies and learned societies and such other | :36:19. | :36:22. | |
persons as the OFS considers appropriate. My honourable friend | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
and myself raised in committee that the OFS should not have the sole | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
power and control over authorisation of research awards and that UKRI and | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
other bodies should be involved in authorising degrees. I made the | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
argument there that there are two major problems with giving the OFS | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
the sole power over awarding research degrees. The first problem | :36:49. | :36:52. | |
is that it would not allow for any research funding bodies or indeed | :36:53. | :36:58. | |
any other relevant agencies to take part in the decision-making process | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
about whether to grant an institution research degree awarding | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
powers or not. This is the matter because granting research degree | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
awarding powers about reference to other bodies diminish the level of | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
expertise going into the decision-making process about | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
whether a specific institution should have those degree awarding | :37:19. | :37:23. | |
powers or not. The second problem with giving the OFS sole control is | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
that the UKRI, research England, and the National academies and learned | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
societies have responsibilities were providing research funding so it | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
seems to be a major error not to consider what rule they would have | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
in the granting of research degree awarding powers. Or the effect it | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
could have on the funding decisions. This is particularly important given | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
the concerns that many organisations have about giving away degree | :37:50. | :37:52. | |
awarding powers. Or example the ECU are worried about the impact of | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
removing a minimum period before institutions are allowed to apply | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
for degree awarding powers. In these circumstances where many groups are | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
concerned that restrictions are being watered down, we should be | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
making sure that organisations such as UKRI scrutinising the decisions | :38:14. | :38:14. | |
made by the OFS. The minister did respond to some of | :38:15. | :38:24. | |
my concerns about the OFS working alone. And he said one key area in | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
which the OFS and should work in close cooperation is the assessment | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
of applications for research degree awarding powers and relations in | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
what was there in clause 103 - 105 and the facility it had. I | :38:40. | :38:45. | |
appreciate that clause 105 does allow for the OFS and UKRI to work | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
together. But the point of my amendment is not just to allow them | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
to work together, but to ensure that they work together. Precisely the | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
point that my honourable friend on the front bench has just been | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
making. Just because these institutions are allowed to work | :39:02. | :39:03. | |
together, does not mean that they will. The Minister's argument also | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
was that the Secretary of State will require that corporation take place | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
if it does not do so of its own accord. Again, why not just require | :39:15. | :39:19. | |
them to do so right at the outset, rather than say they can work | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
together, wait until they don't work together and then seek to intervene? | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
It seems much more sensible just from the outset to say this is how | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
the two of you should work together. Of course I'll give way. The and OFS | :39:32. | :39:40. | |
are under an obligation to work effectively and deliver value for | :39:41. | :39:44. | |
money. That will mean that when collaboration and working together | :39:45. | :39:46. | |
they will deliver those objectives and would be under an obligation to | :39:47. | :39:53. | |
work together. I would say to the Minister it does seem a bit | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
convoluted. Again, a number of universities are still raising | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
issues. We have just heard from the University of Cambridge to said the | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
bill itself does not contain any specific duty on the OFS to consult | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
with UKRI towards degree awarding powers. They agree this should be | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
specifically provided for in the bill. I agree with the point that | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
they make. I think where will asking the Minister just to include a | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
specific requirement for the OFS to consult with the UKRI and other | :40:25. | :40:30. | |
bodies before granting degree awarding powers. We all think this | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
would be a major step forward in ensuring that those are really | :40:37. | :40:39. | |
effective and appropriate decisions that are made. If I can move quickly | :40:40. | :40:52. | |
on to amendment 59, and this is just to suggest that one way of getting | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
OFS and UKRI to work together would be to have a joint committee which | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
would consist of representatives of the two organisations and require | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
them to produce an annual report on the health of the higher education | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
sector, and that it would have to report on things like postgraduate | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
training, research funding, shared facilities, skills development and | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
strength of the sector. The point of this particular amendment is to | :41:21. | :41:28. | |
perhaps get, even at this late stage, a bit more information from | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
the Minister about how he does leave the two organisations working | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
together. And in particular how we will -- how he will ensure that this | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
will stick. This was an issue that arose again and again in committee, | :41:46. | :41:52. | |
where there was, I think, widespread concern that we were expressing | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
through amendments that were being picked out, but somehow be splitting | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
into OFS and UKRI was going to lose something from what had previously | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
been provided for the sector. Again, this is just one way in which they | :42:11. | :42:18. | |
could be made to work together better. But there are others. And I | :42:19. | :42:28. | |
know that the Minister, rather late in the day, as I think we would say, | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
has provided us with framework documents which helped to establish | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
how the Government envisages the two organisations to work together. And | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
I thank him for providing that. I did find it very interesting reading | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
and I hope he appreciates that I did read immediately. And the documents | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
does set out a number of things that the OFS and UKRI may do. It says, | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
for example, they may cooperate with one another in exercising any of | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
their functions. The OFS may provide information to the UKRI. And just | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
reiterating the point that was made in the previous amendment - why not | :43:11. | :43:19. | |
just say most of Charlotte where it's appropriate? Are all absolutely | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
clear that these two organisations have to work together. -- why not | :43:24. | :43:34. | |
say must or shall? At the end of the amendment it does say that one of | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
the things that UKRI and OFS should have two publish a report on its | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
measures that are taken to act in the public interest. I'm not going | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
to go through again to the Minister all the things that we would expect | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
to see from an organisation or two organisations working in the public | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
interest. But it would be very helpful to have some understanding | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
from the Minister about how UKRI and OFS are going to understand and | :44:06. | :44:14. | |
comment and report on the public interest expressed on those | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
institutions and the work that they're carrying out. If I can very, | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
very quickly talk about amendment letter a two government and 17. The | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
Minister is quite right that clause 104 does say that social sciences | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
should be covered by social sciences and arts should be covered by | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
humanities. I picked up this amendment so I could ask why? | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Because it's only a few additional words that have to be added to the | :44:43. | :44:50. | |
clause in question to say arts, humanities and social sciences. | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
Because we will all remember that arts is covered by humanities and | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
social sciences is covered by sciences, because we are doing the | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
bill. It the lists are out there, it does seem to me that there is a real | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
danger of both the arts and social sciences falling out of everybody's | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
memory. It's really just a plea to the Minister, could we just have | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
those three words, arts and social sciences, added to that clause. | :45:17. | :45:24. | |
Thank you. I hope not to retain the House too terribly long but I would | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
like to mix the main points. Firstly, I would like to stop | :45:28. | :45:29. | |
would-be, not the Minister made in his address when he said in relation | :45:30. | :45:37. | |
to our amendment 55, I think, the Secretary of State would not agree | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
to the varying of money. And this strikes me as the hub of the matter | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
and the problem. Because although the Minister is somebody who I know | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
to be honourable, to being absolutely committed to the | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
university sector, assiduous in their work, he has listened to us, | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
hence modest changes that he has made that are very welcome, but I | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
have to say to him that he's not going to be there for ever. And it | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
may well be that in the future, we get somebody with much less stable | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
characteristics, like his brother, for example! Can you imagine the | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
havoc that could be reached if his brother was to replace on one of | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
those benches? So we feel the need to make sure that some of these | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
requirements enshrined in statute. When you look at the needs of the | :46:33. | :46:39. | |
different administrations, there's great difference between the needs | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
of the economy of Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, to those of | :46:46. | :46:47. | |
England and particularly the South of England. I have had the great | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
pleasure in my life to work at times in Queens University Belfast, and | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
also at Ulster University. As well as many of the Scottish universities | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
and a few in England. The differences can be very profound. | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
Take one of the universities in Scotland. The University of the | :47:09. | :47:16. | |
Highlands and Islands. A multicampus university that has research | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
interests that are not shared by any other university in the United | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
Kingdom. The same is true of Ulster University and I'm sure, although | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
it's many years, because I remember once being at Bangor University as | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
well. So there is a great variation in research interests. But more than | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
that there's a profound difference economic leave that we have to | :47:39. | :47:45. | |
respond to. -- a profound difference economic leave. You only have to | :47:46. | :47:48. | |
look at the debate in Scotland about exiting the European Union, where | :47:49. | :47:54. | |
62% voted to stay. And we and others are working hard to have as close a | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
relationship as possible with the European Union and all that that | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
would bring. And look at the debate taking place in some other parts of | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
the UK were precisely the opposite view is being taken. These are going | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
to have profound economic consequences that need to be | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
reflected. And they're not going to be reflected unless there is proper | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
consultation with the devolved bodies. Finally, just one other | :48:19. | :48:23. | |
matter, the Minister talked about bringing together, which I would | :48:24. | :48:31. | |
welcome, research, innovation, the academic community and the business | :48:32. | :48:34. | |
community, and all of that that holds. In the vast majority of | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
cases, I would agree with the Minister. But let me just put in a | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
word of caution here. Some years ago when I was chair of the joint | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
departmental research ethics committee at the University of | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
Stirling, we were faced with a situation where research programmes | :48:52. | :48:58. | |
into smoking word being challenged by business who were trying to get | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
access through legal means to the original data that the academics had | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
used, so that the tobacco companies could twist them to their own | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
interests. So it is not always the case that there was a coincidence | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
between academic interest and business interests. And that is | :49:20. | :49:21. | |
another reason why there needs to be much greater cooperation, because | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
the devolved government in Scotland would have been much more sensitive | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
to that matter than to any other part of the UK. | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
Could I thank the honourable member for giving way. Is he aware that | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
Queens University Belfast, of which I must declare an interest as a | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
graduate, has a particular interest in precision medicine and has been | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
trying to get funding from Innovate UK to pursue a particular project? | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
But it is in direct competition with the University here in Britain. | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
Whereas Queens has a particular expertise in this area. | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
I thank you for that, I was not aware of that particular situation. | :50:06. | :50:11. | |
But it would strike me that she raises a situation where surely it | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
would make sense for them to be cooperative and coordinates to | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
understand the different economic and in this case medical interest | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
out there. I would simply make an appeal to the Government. It is not | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
too late to think. It is not too late to improve this bill. And I | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
would ask the Minister to think on these points against. | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
Many people working in higher education in Scotland, as my | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
honourable friend has mentioned, are very worried about these reforms. | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
And I don't blame them. The Brexit mess is already causing tremendous | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
uncertainty and a future funding and international collaboration. We | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
really need to make certain that changes to governments don't put | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
even more blocks on the road. As mentioned by my other honourable | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
friend, the Scottish affairs committee recently had the privilege | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
of taking evidence from Sir Tim O'Shea, the principle of the | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
University of Exeter, and he was very clear about the probable damage | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
that would be done to Scotland in other parts of the UK if a deal was | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
not floated similar to the one done for the City of London. The Scottish | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
research industries secured millions of euros up to 2016. That is 11.6% | :51:25. | :51:32. | |
of total UK funding. Access to that funding will be lost unless | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
agreement is reached between the UK and the EU. That will necessitate | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
the UK putting the money into the research pot in the first place. | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
Perhaps more direct concern for the business in front of us, a major | :51:47. | :51:49. | |
concern about these reforms in Scotland as has been mentioned is | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
that research councils will be sucked up into the new along with | :51:53. | :52:00. | |
Research England on the meaning that the pot could be too closely | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
entwined with England's funding council. We need clear lines and | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
full transparency between UKRI and Research England. Scotland's | :52:11. | :52:13. | |
University currently performed very well in attracting funding. We | :52:14. | :52:21. | |
cannot allow the system to be skewed to their advantage and we look | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
forward to seeing the Government's guidance on this issue. We also need | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
more than lip service to be paid to consulting devolved administrations. | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
The Scottish Government and funding council need to input to those | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
decisions, as does the Welsh and Northern Ireland administration so | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
that their voices and priorities and drowned out. The Scottish research | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
industry has different priorities to the rest of the UK and there is | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
concerned that this will missed, UK wide research body. | :52:50. | :53:01. | |
These are often in smaller less research intensive institutions and | :53:02. | :53:08. | |
there is a real worry that new criteria could lead smaller pockets | :53:09. | :53:12. | |
of excellence locked out of funding. In light of this the Government | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
Amendment 35 does not go far enough in assuaging the very real concerns | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
that have been voiced long and loaned by the Scottish higher | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
education sector. To only have regard to the desirability of the | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
members including at least one person with relevant experience in | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
relation to at least one of Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
is simply not good enough. Hardly a cast iron assurance, the new | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
structure will not affect our research priorities or damage our | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
research funding. These changes will affect Scotland. We will be keeping | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
a close eye on the effects of it and you can be sure that Scottish | :53:56. | :53:58. | |
universities will take full advantage of any edges they can | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
find. The likely consequence of this Bill in its current state is that | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
you will certainly find Scottish universities becoming far clearer in | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
the national and international branding. | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
I am not proposing to move it to a vote. -- I am now proposing. Is it | :54:23. | :54:30. | |
the wish of the House that new clause 11 B withdrawn? Carol | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
Moynihan to move new clause 14 formally. It should be read a second | :54:39. | :54:47. | |
time. Iron. Maul. The vision. Where the lobby. -- iron. Un. Division. | :54:48. | :54:59. | |
Clear the lobby. Tell us for the Ayes. Tell us for | :55:00. | :55:46. | |
the Noes. The Ayes 211. The Noes 280. The Ayes | :55:47. | :06:54. | |
211. The Noes 280. The Noes habit. The Noes have it. Unlock. With the | :06:55. | :07:06. | |
leave of the House I shall put amendments 1-4 together. The | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
question is that amendments 1-4 be made. The Aye habits. Amendment 47 | :07:12. | :07:23. | |
to be moved formally. The question is that the Amendment be made as | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
many as adult opinion saying Aye, the contrary No. Division. Clear the | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
lobby. The question is that the amendment | :07:35. | :08:34. | |
be made. So aye. Saint no. -- say no. | :08:35. | :15:36. | |
The ayes to the right, 216. The noes to the left, 277. The ayes to the | :15:37. | :18:35. | |
right, 216. The noes to the left, 277. The noes have it. Unlock. For | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
the leave of the House I shall put amendments 5-11 together. I called | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
the Government to leave formally. The | :18:46. | :18:52. | |
the ayes have it. Amendment 40 to be removed formally. The question is | :18:53. | :19:01. | |
that amendment for to be made. As many say aye. To the contrary know. | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
Clear lobby. -- to the contrary, say no. Clear the lobby. | :19:10. | :20:33. | |
Can you wait? OK, order, order. The question is that amendment 40 be | :20:34. | :20:42. | |
made. So aye. Of the contrary, no. Order. Order. The Ayes 212, Noes | :20:43. | :29:44. | |
281. The Ayes 212, Noes 281. Unlock. Order, order. Under the order of the | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
House of 19th of July I must now put the question is necessary to bring | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
to the conclusion of remaining proceedings on consideration. | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
Minister to move Government amendments 12-17 formally. The | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
question is that Government amendments 12-17 be made. As many | :30:05. | :30:10. | |
are in favour say Aye. The Ayes habit. Amendment 50 six. Amendment | :30:11. | :30:19. | |
56 be made as many of that see Aye, on the contrary No. Division. Clear | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
the lobby. The question is that Amendment 56 be | :30:25. | :31:49. | |
made. As many that opinion see Aye, the contrary No. Tell us for the | :31:50. | :31:56. | |
Ayes. Tellers for the nose. Thank you. | :31:57. | :38:28. | |
Order, order. The ayes to the right, 217. The noes | :38:29. | :40:39. | |
to the left, 275. Thank you. The ayes to the right, | :40:40. | :40:49. | |
217. The noes to the left, 275. The noes have it. Unlock. The Minister | :40:50. | :40:55. | |
to move government amendment 18-35 formally. The question is that | :40:56. | :41:03. | |
government amendments 14-35 be made. So aye. To the contrary, no. The | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
ayes have it. Consideration completed, I will now suspend the | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
House for no more than five minutes in order to make a decision about | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
certification. The division bells will be 12-macro minutes before the | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
House resumes. Following my certification, the Government will | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
be tabling the appropriate consent motions. Copies of the consent | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
motions will be available shortly in the vote office and will be | :41:34. | :41:35. | |
distributed by doorkeepers. Order. Most people think that the | :41:36. | :42:29. | |
Government makes laws and the Government of -- the majority of | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
legislation does come from ministers. But MPs and peers have | :42:34. | :42:36. | |
the chance to bring in their own ideas through what is known as | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
private member 's' bills. In the House of Commons there are a couple | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
of ways this can be done. But the ones most likely to succeed in | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
merger to a ballot held in here at the start of every session. It's not | :42:48. | :42:56. | |
a very high-tech system. Any MP who wants to bring in a bill puts their | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
name down on a list and 20 corresponding numbers of pulled out | :43:00. | :43:06. | |
of a bowl. 210. 210. Andrew Gwynne. | :43:07. | :43:17. | |
It's seen as a great opportunity. So it's perhaps surprising that many | :43:18. | :43:21. | |
MPs haven't decided what Bill they'd like to introduce when they put | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
their name down. If they're enough to be drawn, they're subject to | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
intense lobbying from charities and others. For example, the | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
Conservative MP Wendy Wharton put forward a bill to ensure that the | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
loyalties from JM Barrie's Peter Pan books continue to go to great Ormond | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Street Hospital. One that I would like to be referred | :43:42. | :43:49. | |
to as the Peter Pan Bill. I often wondered why my mum and dad named me | :43:50. | :43:52. | |
Wendy. Obviously, this was the reason. | :43:53. | :43:57. | |
Conservative Sir Gerald Howells found that his private members will, | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
asking the Government to sign up to a Nato defence spending target, was | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
talked out by a government minister. And there was outrage in social | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
media when Tory MPs talked out a bill from Labour's Julie Cooper to | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
exempt carers from paying hospital car parking charges. | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
On many an occasion is no serious attempt at proper debate on many an | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
issue that the wider public are very concerned and very distressed about. | :44:25. | :44:27. | |
And it brings the parliament into disrepute. | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
Those who regularly scuttled private members bills argue that they have | :44:33. | :44:36. | |
every right to do away with well-meaning but ill thought through | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
or unnecessary legislation. Does my honourable friend not agree | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
that if a bill can't muster even the support of 100 MPs are to 650 then | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
it clearly doesn't actually have the support that other people would | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
claim it has? There have been repeated calls for | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
an overhaul with debating time move from Friday to another day of the | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
week when more MPs are in Westminster. Putting an end to what | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
is, essentially, the survival of the fittest. So if it's such a tricky | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
process, why bother? Well, a bill can highlight an issue that may be | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
taken up by ministers later. Or it can simply be to force the | :45:14. | :45:15. | |
Government White doesn't want to change. | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
For all his good intentions in proposing this bill, if he were to | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
press for a vote, the Government would not be able to support him in | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
the division lobbies this afternoon. Lets not forget some do succeed. | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
Changes to the abortion laws in 1966 came about through a private members | :45:32. | :45:34. | |
bill. In the late 60s, a private members | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
bill went through Parliament to reform the law on abortion. | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
More recently, minor reforms to the House of Lords and changes to how | :45:44. | :45:45. | |
international aid money is spent came about in the same way. The | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
private members bills face many obstacles. But for individual MPs | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
and peers, they can be a chance to make a really big impression. | :45:54. | :46:02. | |
Subsections 4-5. I have also certified the following amendments | :46:03. | :46:11. | |
as relating exclusively to England. Amendments 109, 243, two for four | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
and 245 made in public bill committee to clause 80 of the bill, | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
as introduced. That is to say Bill four. Now clause 81 of the bill, as | :46:24. | :46:27. | |
amended in the public Bill committee. Helpfully advised me as | :46:28. | :46:36. | |
being bill 78, which I'm sure all honourable and right Honourable | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
members were equally anxious to know. Copies of my certificate | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
available in the vote office. Understanding order number 83M, | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
consent motions are required for the bill to proceed. Does the Minister | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
intends to move the consent motions? The ministerial zero has duly been | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
provided for which we are grateful. -- the ministerial nod. | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
Understanding the subsection, the how shall forthwith resolve itself | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
into the committee, England and Wales. And thereafter into the | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
legislative grand committee England. Order, order. | :47:17. | :47:26. | |
We will now proceed for the consent motion for England and Wales. I | :47:27. | :48:17. | |
remind members that although... Sorry, there is no debate. There is | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
no debate, so no members are speaking! Laughter | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
I called the Minister to move the consent motion for England and Wales | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
and I remind the Minister that understanding order number 83M... | :48:33. | :48:43. | |
That's not relevant because it is not about speaking. That's also not | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
relevant, so we're going straight to the question. The question is that | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
the legislative grand committee England and Wales consents to the | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
following certified clauses and schedules of higher education and | :48:56. | :49:04. | |
research bill, clause 80 one. -- clause 80 one. As many are as of | :49:05. | :49:15. | |
that opinion, say aye. On the contrary, no. I think the ayes have | :49:16. | :49:20. | |
it. We now have moved formerly that motion. So the question is that the | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
legislative grand committee England consents to clause 56 and schedule | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
five of the higher education research bill and to amendments 109, | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
243, 244 and 245 made in public Bill committee. Thank you. As many say | :49:40. | :49:53. | |
aye. On the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. Order, order. | :49:54. | :50:08. | |
Thank you! Sorry, it's not in the script! No, don't worry. Sorry I had | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
to interrupt. Don't worry. Third reading. Another splendidly | :50:13. | :50:45. | |
elegant nod, for which grateful. -- for which we are grateful. Sorry... | :50:46. | :51:00. | |
It would be as well to report to the House the proceedings of the | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
legislative grand committee. And I do indeed report that the committee | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
in these deliberations, I knew all members of the House take a close | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
interest, has consented to clause 81 of the bill. The grand committee | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
following what is quite a racy and intoxicating story. The legislative | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
grand committee England has consented to clause 56 and schedule | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
five of the higher education and research bill. And to amendments | :51:31. | :51:37. | |
109, 244, 245 made in public Bill committee. I hope that's clear both | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
to all members of the House and he is keenly attending our proceedings | :51:41. | :51:46. | |
from beyond. -- and to those keenly attending. We do come now to third | :51:47. | :51:54. | |
reading. Queens consent? Thank you. I look to the Minister to move to | :51:55. | :52:00. | |
third reading of the bill. No less a figure than the higher education | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
Minister, Mr Joe Johnson. Thank you Mr Speaker and I beg to | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
move up the bill be now read a third time. Let me convey my thanks to | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
those small parts of the House and those outside the given their time | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
and expertise to help strengthen and improve this important and | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
much-needed bit of legislation. We've been listening carefully to | :52:21. | :52:23. | |
all the points made during the bill's passage and I'm pleased that | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
the Bill has received such a thorough scrutiny in this house. We | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
are reforming the complicated and outdated landscape. We are giving | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
students more choice, driving up quality and ensuring our world-class | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
research and innovation sector can maintain its standing in these ever | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
more challenging times. As we've heard from those in the sector, our | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
reforms will make a real difference. I'd like to remind the House by the | :52:51. | :52:52. | |
passage of the ballista important. The current regulation of the system | :52:53. | :53:03. | |
reflects a bygone era of grant funding, elite access and student | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
number controls. Things have moved on and we must catch up. We are | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
putting in place the robust regulatory framework that is needed, | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
it joins up the regulation of the market and will give us best in | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
class regulatory system. This is essential to ensure that students | :53:20. | :53:22. | |
are protected and that students and the taxpayer received good value for | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
money from the system. The Bill will also create a level playing field | :53:28. | :53:39. | |
making it easier for new providers to enter but only if they can | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
demonstrate they have the potential to deliver high-quality provision. | :53:42. | :53:43. | |
New universities will drive more diversity and innovation, more | :53:44. | :53:45. | |
choice for students, drive up quality, and provide employers with | :53:46. | :53:47. | |
more of the skills are economy needs. Nowhere has this been better | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
demonstrated than by the announcement last month that Sir | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
James Dyson, one of this country's greatest inventors, is creating a | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
new Dyson Institute of Technology. Dyson and tasty take advantage of | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
our planned reforms to give high-quality institutions a direct | :54:04. | :54:10. | |
route to degree awarding powers and university status in their own | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
right. It will equip students in future employees at the skills which | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
will be vital to the growth and productivity of our economy and we | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
have seen recently that new providers like the bison as it be | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
recognised some of the most respected within the sector. The | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
University of Buckingham was ranked first for teaching quality in The | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
Times guide and the University of law, but only became a university in | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
2012 was joint first overall student satisfaction in the National student | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
satisfaction survey this year. Drawing on the review our reforms | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
have also been welcomed. The President of the Royal Society | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
recently commented, UK research and innovation will boost cooperation | :55:00. | :55:01. | |
amongst the research councils allowing more flexible and research | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
to global challenges and position research at the heart of a new | :55:07. | :55:13. | |
industrial strategy. Just as was envisaged in the review we are now | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
implementing. These are just a few of the important aspects of our | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
reforms. But as we arrive at this final stage of the Bill's passage in | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
this House before we transfer to the other place I want to take this | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
opportunity to show how the Government has listened and how this | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
Bill has changed since it was first introduced. Our reforms place | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
students at the heart of higher education regulation. I have always | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
been clear that experience of representing and promoting the | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
interests of students is a key criterion in appointing the board of | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
the new market regulator, the office for students, but we heard concerns | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
that this was not sufficient so we have strengthened what we were | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
proposing. Through our amendments that have been agreed today we will | :55:55. | :56:02. | |
ensure that OfS always has a board member with the experience of | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
representing students. Institutional autonomy has been the foundation of | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
the success of our higher education system. Through this Bill we are | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
committed to recognising the fundamental and ongoing importance | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
of academic freedom as to that end the Bill creates numerous and robust | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
safeguards ensuring the protection of academic freedom and | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
institutional autonomy at all times. Today we have clarified in the | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
legislation are a clear intention that the Government when giving | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
guidance or directions to the OfS or setting conditions of grant framed | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
by reference to particular courses of study will not have the ability | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
to compel the OfS to perform any of its functions in a way that | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
prohibits or requires the provision of particular courses. Many people | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
told me that they want the OfS to take more of a role in monitoring | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
the financial sustainability of the sector, working with UKRI as needed | :56:58. | :57:03. | |
to ensure trepidation can be protected and enhanced. We are now | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
in training this duty in law through the amendments which has been a | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
tease today. This Bill is not just about reforming how we will regulate | :57:11. | :57:14. | |
higher education institutions, we are also creating a body to strength | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
in the UK's world-class capabilities in research and innovation. UKRI has | :57:19. | :57:26. | |
a UK wide remit to deliver this and our overall integrated and strategic | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
ambitions for the new body, UKRI must have a proper understanding of | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
the system is operating at all parts of the UK, and I am pleased we have | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
agreed an Amendment which will ensure this. We have also responded | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
to the community 's feedback and recognising the important role that | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
UKRI will play in supporting postgraduate training working | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
together with the OfS. The Government remains committed to | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
ensuring our higher education sector retains its international standing | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
and the reforms within this Bill are crucial in enabling us to do that. I | :58:00. | :58:02. | |
am grateful to honourable members from taking the time to speed on ice | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
and contributes to this important Bill and I commend to the House. The | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
question is that the Bill be now read the third time. Thank you. Can | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
I associate myself with the Minister and has thanks to all have | :58:19. | :58:21. | |
contributed to the Bill, particularly to my honourable friend | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
's who served in such a stunning fashion on the Bill committee, but | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
not only to them, there have been a huge of responses from the | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
university sector and indeed from sectors as well. That underlines the | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
importance of getting a Bill like this right. The Minister said, as no | :58:40. | :58:48. | |
doubt he was feeling released from the scrutiny in the House, he said | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
we were escaping a bygone era, but more than once in the course of this | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
Bill, and indeed again this afternoon I got a sense of | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
20th-century d j vu in the naive belief in unproven and unregulated | :59:04. | :59:10. | |
competition in the sense in fact that nothing has changed since June | :59:11. | :59:18. | |
the 23rd, whereas of course everything has changed. One of the | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
things that we criticised most in the way in which this Bill has been | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
taken forward is that there has been no sense of adjusting to the | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
realities of Brexit, no sense that it might have been sensible to have | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
pause and reflect it what the structural change, and particularly | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
in terms of the new providers, might do for our higher education sector, | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
not just in England but across the entire United Kingdom. The | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
Government could have given plea that the scrutiny to this Bill, they | :59:55. | :00:01. | |
did not do it. They could have conceded frankly far more than they | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
did on the committee we are not just members from our sight of a host but | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
members from the SNP put forward positive suggestions. Very few of | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
those were taken on board. I welcome what the Minister has said in terms | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
of students but to be honest it is a pretty poor start at this stage. | :00:23. | :00:32. | |
What is happening? The Government is not looking beyond Horizon 2020. It | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
is not looking beyond the funding and the ?2 billion which the | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
Minister of the today from the industrial strategy will not go too | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
far in dealing with all the immense problems we are going to have out of | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Brexit. Too often when they had the opportunity to reach out and | :00:51. | :00:52. | |
committee we got Civil Service boilerplate. I went back and looked | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
at what I actually said on the second reading of the Bill and to be | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
honest I cannot see a great deal more that I feel I should change in | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
what I said. I said instead of looking at urgently needed and | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
constructive ways of reducing the financial fees burden on our student | :01:13. | :01:16. | |
the Government has produced mechanisms which dodge parliament's | :01:17. | :01:19. | |
ability to judge and regulate them and we have talked about that again | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
today. Instead of strengthening and shoring up our universities and | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
higher and further education at most critical time the risk undermining | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
them by pursuing a market ideology and instead of presenting analysis | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
in the wake of Brexit, offering relief, assurance and strategies to | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
safeguard both research excellence in our traditional and modern | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
universities and the involvement of each key in the local communities, | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
the Government have presented very few answers to these urgent threats. | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
As a result they have managed to alienate diverse groups of people as | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
I indicated this afternoon. In the process they have cheated slightly | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
in the Bill of issues such as academic autonomy. They have missed | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
opportunities to be forward thinking. I have to say to the | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
Minister, I mentioned 20th-century go back, the naive belief in which | :02:20. | :02:26. | |
the terms from time to time the Minister has talked about | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
competition made me think, if I did not bowl and better, that he was a | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
disciple of wanted to go back to the 1950s because Nova is there any | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
adequate protection in this Bill completely for students. Nothing for | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
existing institutions, nothing to support them in that way. In the | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
process they have tried to do everything to avoid scrutiny by this | :02:54. | :02:59. | |
House of the new institutions in the future. That will be an issue that | :03:00. | :03:05. | |
will come back to bite them because when the first of these new | :03:06. | :03:12. | |
innovations goes wrong they will not have taken it to this House. Let me | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
just caught one particular thing that he managed to prise out of the | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
Minister in committee. The concerns about rogue providers. The costs of | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
the OfS, who is going to bear the cost of the OfS? We got some | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
snapshots from a technical paper that was produced and what it showed | :03:31. | :03:37. | |
was increasingly it was going to be covered by each E providers. Who was | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
going to provide the money for the HD providers? Students, the | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
students, the same students who have been double-crossed by this | :03:47. | :03:52. | |
Government over the threshold, the same students, the same Government | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
who have jeopardised the life chances of tens of thousands of | :03:59. | :04:05. | |
young people by scrapping maintenance grants and replacing | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
them with loans which they may or may not take up and the same | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
Government which has moved too slowly, to feebly, to address some | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
of the issues of reskilling and higher education across the periods | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
of peoples lives which we have done our best to bring to the fore this | :04:25. | :04:31. | |
Bill. They have done too little too late to respond to those concerns. I | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
would genuinely have liked to come to this House today to say that we | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
have been satisfied with what the Minister has said, with the changes | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
he has made but I am afraid we cannot be satisfied at this stage of | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
that. And they have left an enormous amount of questions for the other | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
police to do due diligence on and I believe the other place will do due | :04:57. | :05:02. | |
diligence on it but as it stands at the moment this Bill is a lost | :05:03. | :05:09. | |
opportunity. It has failed in its overall and overarching aims for | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
social mobility, and that is the reason why the regret we cannot | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
support it, and why we will be voting against third reading | :05:18. | :05:25. | |
tonight. Thank you. I would start by associating myself with the remarks | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
made by the Minister and the honourable member for Blackpool | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
South in thanking those involved in the preparation of this Bill and all | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
stakeholders who have given us their input into the Bill and provided | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
excellent briefings throughout. Despite the greasiness of this Bill | :05:47. | :05:54. | |
we continue to have concerns, some of which affect Scotland's directly. | :05:55. | :06:06. | |
Although Scottish HE providers will not be forced to participate the | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
year as if they do not they will be disadvantaged when it comes to | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
attracting international students, a crucial source of funding for all HE | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
institutions and this is confounded by the Government is's refusal to | :06:19. | :06:28. | |
reinstate work visas, as well as business leaders and all political | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
parties in Scotland. Add into that mix Brexit and the reputational | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
damage that has been done to UK higher education internationally by | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
this, there are serious issues at the moment in higher education and | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
we should be addressing these first before we pursue this Bill. I thank | :06:46. | :06:52. | |
the honourable friend for giving way and she is making its very clear as | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
to why so much of this Bill is important to our constituents in | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
Scotland, not least the University of Scotland glass -- University of | :07:01. | :07:06. | |
Glasgow. In the ground that sort of committee procedure, it makes our | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
mockery of the scrutiny that old -- that should be delivered. If there | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
is an answer to the West Lothian question these current procedures | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
are not that. I am not sure who those procedures served and I cannot | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
imagine that serve the people of England is particularly well, | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
however I shall move on. The establishment of UKRI without a | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
proper devolved voice, a voice which understands the distinct nature of | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
Scotland's research landscape, could lead to a lack of consideration | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
amongst the research councils and innovate UK's decision-making | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
bodies, of governments priorities and research needs in Scotland and | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
other devolved nations. Whilst we welcome the Government's movement on | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
this and there new Amendment it simply does not go far enough to | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
guarantee the assurances that we were looking for. Scotland is | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
already disadvantaged in terms of infrastructure spend for research. | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
It is currently attracting only around 5% of UK spending. Therefore | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
to prevent further leakage of funding and continued disparity is | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
the firewall must be in place. This ensures not only does the funding | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
follow the excellence but also that the vibrant research community in | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
all devolved nations will continue to flourish. | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
Likely Honourable member for Blackpool South, we have concerns. | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
Because of these concerns, we also are unable to support the Bill's | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
passage tonight. Thank you. I rise to echo some of | :08:50. | :08:57. | |
the comments that were made by my honourable friend from the front | :08:58. | :09:04. | |
bench. There is some of this bill that we can agree with. i don't | :09:05. | :09:13. | |
think any of his public using a framework in place. | :09:14. | :09:25. | |
However, I think even though we are now a third reading, we simply | :09:26. | :09:34. | |
haven't got enough information about how the turf is actually going to | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
work in practice and whether it's going to measure teaching quality or | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
simply use proxy measures. We know that the metrics still have two be | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
sorted and that's a matter that is going to rely from now on in the | :09:47. | :09:56. | |
other place. As is the traffic light system, whether it will come into | :09:57. | :09:59. | |
operation and whether it will be used in any way for student | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
equipment, particularly with regards to international students. There are | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
also other issues that remain unresolved. There is about the | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
quality of new entrants. What they do, and the services that they will | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
provide two students in addition to their degree course. There are also | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
issues to be resolved about how UKRI and the OFS will provide holistic | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
oversight to the sector, and how they will work together. There were | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
also issues about how higher education relates to the needs of | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
part-time and mature students. And, again, there are a number of | :10:41. | :10:44. | |
unanswered questions which, again, members in the other place will have | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
to examine in more detail, as they will have two student finance and | :10:50. | :10:52. | |
the increasing demands that are being placed upon it. And as my | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
honourable friend from the front bench said, how all of this is going | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
to make sense to universities in the context of Brexit. So quite a list | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
of challenges that we are handing over to the other place, and I wish | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
them well in further scrutiny of this. | :11:13. | :11:20. | |
Order. The question is that the bill now be read the third time. Sadie | :11:21. | :11:29. | |
aye. To the contrary, no. Clear the lobbies. -- say aye. | :11:30. | :13:30. | |
In order. The question is that the bill now be read the third time. Say | :13:31. | :13:39. | |
aye. To the contrary, no. Tellers for the ayes. Tellers for the noes, | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
Vicky Foxcroft and Jeff Smith. Order, order. | :13:49. | :22:24. | |
The ayes to the right, 279. The ayes to the left, 214. | :22:25. | :22:34. | |
The allies and 79, the Noes 214. The Ayes have it. -- the Ayes 279. | :22:35. | :22:49. | |
Question as on the order paper, as many in favour say Aye, to the | :22:50. | :22:59. | |
contrary No. The Ayes habits. The question is as on the order | :23:00. | :23:08. | |
paper. The Ayes have it. Motion number four relating to membership | :23:09. | :23:11. | |
of procedure committee. I beg to move. The Ayes habits. Motion number | :23:12. | :23:21. | |
five on the Welsh affairs committee. I beg to move. As many as are not | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
the opinion see Aye, to the contrary No. The Ayes habits. We come to the | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
adjournment. To move this House does now adjourned. The questionnaires | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
that this House does know a. Thank you for granting me this debate. I | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
would like to begin by welcoming become a's recent consultation on | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
its sheer wealth fund and to draw attention to the potential of this | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
fund. It is only right that this House should have an open and | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
constructive debate about the new fund created by Government and how | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
it might be used most effectively. This must be the first debate about | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
the new wealth fund the title but will not be the last. Perhaps in her | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
response Minister can confirm whether the Treasury will be | :24:09. | :24:10. | |
publishing submissions to the consultation because this is a new | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
concept and it can only be good for policy-making to exchange | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
information and ideas submitted so I would encourage the Minister to make | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
these available on line as she is able to do so. I should say what | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
this debate is not about. I have not secured this chance to bring a | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
minister to the House to debate the wise and wherefores of fracking. My | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
own view is our well-known from my time as Labour Shadow secretary in | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
the last parliament, with appropriate rule in place, shale gas | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
has a role to play. It could assist UK transition to renewables, | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
reducing dependency on imported gas, some of which is fact, and reduce UK | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
carbon emissions. The Government could have gone further on | :24:59. | :25:00. | |
regulation but that is for another day. If she'll glass explanation is | :25:01. | :25:08. | |
proceeding communities should have a fund, just as communities in | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
Michaelson agency has tolerated quarrying. Two forms of cutesy | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
benefit. A one off payment of ?100,000 per well and a sheer | :25:21. | :25:25. | |
currently set at 1%. Each should give communities dedicated funds for | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
the lifetime of the project. Plus local authorities were wheeled | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
hundred percent business rates they collect from shale gas sites as is | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
the case in renewable developments. But the case in renewable | :25:38. | :25:39. | |
developments. But this evening I want to advance the conversation | :25:40. | :25:41. | |
about the best use of how the revenue is the Government receives | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
and national taxes and levies will be spent, specifically the proposal | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
for initially 10% of tax revenues to be deposited in a she'll wealth | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
fund, a sovereign wealth funds by any other name. I believe the fund | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
should be ring fenced for a clear purpose, improving the UK's energy | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
efficiency, using the proceeds from a fossil fuel to reduce future | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
dependence on those same energy sources. I pay tribute to the work | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
she has done in the House over many years, in her position as a | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
minister. Does she agree that the communities most affected by shale | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
gas should benefit by shale gas wealth? I do agree with that. I | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
believe that when it comes to energy developments whether it is shale gas | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
or nuclear me should recognise the enormous contribution those | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
communities are playing in securing our energy security for the future. | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
They should be seen as national guardians of the country's interest | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
and they should receive support for some good things that could happen | :26:48. | :26:49. | |
to the community out of this development. I do believe it would | :26:50. | :26:54. | |
be helpful if we could ring fence this fund. I am aware this is not an | :26:55. | :27:03. | |
immediate. We are some years from receiving taxable profits but I | :27:04. | :27:06. | |
cannot help but look at our labours in Norway and think how different | :27:07. | :27:09. | |
things might have been had to be protected North Sea oil and gas | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
revenues. This fund will never equates to the scale of North Sea | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
oil and gas which has never been less than ?2 billion per year since | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
the 1970s and reach more than 12,000,000,001 year in the last | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
decade. Successive governments broader revenue into general public | :27:28. | :27:33. | |
spending. Norway and contrast created a sovereign wealth fund, | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
that fund is so significant that the income it generates within a region | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
nation now outstrips the revenue for oil production. They have | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
interesting rules as well. Would she accept however that given the | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
reserves of shale gas which it is believed to be had in the United | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
Kingdom that that wealth fund could be a massive boost to the economy | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
not just for a short periods but for a very long period? The honourable | :28:02. | :28:06. | |
gentleman makes a good point. From what I understand of where shale gas | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
is possibly recoverable from, it is an open question as to how much | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
could be received in revenue. There may be some difficulties about how | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
we get it out of the ground so it might be out of the ground but they | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
may not be able to recover at all but it is an open question. But at | :28:23. | :28:25. | |
the moment it is due only to know just how much but now is the time to | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
think about the principles for such a fund and how we make sure it is | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
not frittered away a cross Government on different schemes that | :28:34. | :28:36. | |
at the end of the day we cannot see the power of goods is provided for | :28:37. | :28:43. | |
the nation. The Norwegian wealth fund is quite amazing and how it was | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
put together. First the Norwegian Government said they could only draw | :28:49. | :28:52. | |
down 4% of the fund each year to spend. March of this year was the | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
first time the Norwegians had ever drawn down 4% of the fund, despite | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
the value of the funds being worth $890 billion. Seconds of the | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
invested for the long-term. The oil fund is normally's pension fund. We | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
do not know exactly the amount that the she'll oil fund may generate but | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
it has forecast that may generate ?1 billion over 25 years and that is a | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
considerable sum to put to good use, and maybe more. To create a defined | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
wealth fund as a start, if fund clearly separate from the general | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
revenue pot, which is the Government's intention, but a | :29:32. | :29:34. | |
further lesson would be to follow the example of Norwich and use the | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
funds for a specific purpose, a big picture idea that counts, and whose | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
impact can be clearly seen. And normally they look forward to deepen | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
their country could no longer depend on oil. We could look forward to add | :29:48. | :29:54. | |
even we are not dependent on fossil fuels by reducing long-term energy | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
use. Energy efficiency is at a crossroads as existing programmes | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
end or decline. I have raised concerns about the Coalition | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
Government's of the green deal. We were sceptical about how that would | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
work. It lasted two years before being scrapped. As a member of the | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
Public Accounts Committee we recently revisited the household | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
energy efficiency schemes. The Department of Energy and Climate | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
Change as dependent on last of Heysel sticking out green deal | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
alone. The Government projected 3.5 million green deals but a tiny | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
14,000 signed up. It was bad policy-making and sadly it wasted | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
taxpayer's money. Will give way. Thank you for giving way. The Prime | :30:39. | :30:44. | |
Minister indicated 10% of tax revenue could be used for | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
communities, this could be ?10 million per community, | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
infrastructure, skills training and long term job opportunities. | :30:53. | :31:00. | |
Absolutely. Great thing about energy efficiency, it has a multiplier | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
effect not just in making our homes warmer and reducing our bills but | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
creating jobs and encouraging innovation. I will go on to | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
something else about this. While it would be a national fund the | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
delivery should be at a local level and the leadership should be held | :31:16. | :31:17. | |
regionally within our communities across the UK. One bad scheme like | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
the green deal does not mean we should give up. With the green deal | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
gone and he sooner to exist just to tackle fuel of a team needs to look | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
at moving forward on energy efficiency. The competition markets | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
authority told us that 70% of Bill payers were appearing over the odds | :31:39. | :31:40. | |
for their energy and even at the latest Ofgem measures are introduced | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
it would reduce bills for a view. It is likely that even by 2020 we will | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
still be talking about energy bills that are as high if not higher than | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
in 2010. I am sure the minister would agree that the cheapest energy | :31:56. | :31:59. | |
is the energy we do not use and the sheer wealth fund could provide the | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
opportunity to protect households from future energy price rises. This | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
fund should not be the only programme for energy efficiency but | :32:10. | :32:18. | |
that would provide a new means. Let us consider the future if we do not | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
make energy efficiency a priority. Quite rightly the UK has ambitious | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
and legally binding emissions targets and we shall have two meet | :32:27. | :32:32. | |
these targets with 80% of the UK built environment still existing in | :32:33. | :32:40. | |
2050. The challenge is huge. The Government's own figures for 2015 | :32:41. | :32:47. | |
show that overall its largest energy efficiency scheme installed one or | :32:48. | :32:53. | |
more measures and 5% of homes. 320,000 homes had cavity wall | :32:54. | :32:58. | |
insulation, George and 30,000 had loft insulation, 50,000 had solid | :32:59. | :33:04. | |
incineration. Of the green deal assessment 89% rated doors homes as | :33:05. | :33:12. | |
D, E, F or G. There is a long way to go. There is a huge job that needs | :33:13. | :33:19. | |
to be done and cruelly directed bundling, hard to treat properties | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
have been ignored. Many of the easiest measures have been | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
undertaken first. Now Britain needs to finish the job. Energy efficiency | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
dedicated she'll wealth funds could be a positive step and I am not | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
alone in suggesting this. The chief executive of the National insulation | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
Association said there are still 5 million cavity walls, 7 million | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
lofts that need incineration. We welcome this proposal. In saluting | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
these homes with combat fuel poverty and climate change and create jobs | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
and reduce bills. The association identifies that many homes have yet | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
to be adequately integrated including 9% of homes with solid | :34:03. | :34:10. | |
walls. Most of my constituency is covered by exploration licences for | :34:11. | :34:19. | |
shale. But that she except the greatest impact of shale gas | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
exploration is above the ground, traffic movements, light and air | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
pollution. Some of the benefits should go directly to some of the | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
households that suffer the biggest brunt of those difficulties. I agree | :34:33. | :34:39. | |
with that as part of the planning, that can think to some of the | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
planning and influence as well, and just as in any other planning are | :34:44. | :34:47. | |
traditionally mitigation by any developer for any undue impacts that | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
are caused within the community and also it is important to identify | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
that not every place that is the subject of an application is always | :34:56. | :34:58. | |
good to get through because of those very reasons. The honourable | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
gentleman outlines. There are different ways from shale gas | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
development compensation could be found when it is to the planning | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
process, ?100,000 per well, 1% of revenues to local communities, or | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
this are totally wealth funds which I believe has a particular role to | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
play in addressing a massive problem in this country which is the lack of | :35:21. | :35:33. | |
energy efficiency. In its submission it was argued the Government may | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
wish to consider allocating a portion of funding towards energy | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
efficiency initiatives are developing new technologies. This | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
would help to dispel the myth that is either or gas or renewables. And | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
that is one of those firms that this had to import shale gas from the USA | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
to meet its current needs. Lancashire County Council argued | :35:56. | :35:58. | |
that is part of a devolution deal the shale wealth fund and Lancashire | :35:59. | :36:02. | |
could be focused on green renewable technologies ensuring that all | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
families could reduce energy costs through energy efficiency measures | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
in the home. I am delighted that my honourable friend has secured this | :36:14. | :36:15. | |
debate because it is really important. As one of the issues | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
partly been discussed and Lancashire certainly amongst MPs. In my | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
constituency 40% of properties of category one housing are called and | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
damp yet shale gas sits underneath my constituency as it does the rest | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
of Lancashire. Is it not imperative that we look at the problems and is | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
it not to the shame of a Government that they have abandoned housing | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
regeneration programmes in the north and retrofitted many of these hard | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
to treat properties? It is absolutely demoralising that in the | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
last Coalition Government five years were wasted in advancing how we | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
could tackle this tricky problem of energy efficiency. I would not win | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
from one minute all the schemes before that were perfect but I do | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
know the decent homes programme did a huge amount to bring social | :37:04. | :37:06. | |
housing stock up to a better standard and that some of the work | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
we were doing through the warm front programme and other schemes were | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
making an impact. Unfortunately we wasted five years not learning from | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
what worked and what did not work and ended up with something not | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
working and we have lost time and we need to get back on track. I also | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
think it is important it is understood this does not have to be | :37:26. | :37:28. | |
a top-down approach. The past decade and more on energy efficiency | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
programmes have generally shown that national targets need local | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
delivery. Energy companies found they could deliver the programmes | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
more quickly and reach more households if they had a trusted | :37:40. | :37:42. | |
local partners such as a local council acting as the face of the | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
project. Local authorities have lots of the data to create heat maps and | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
are well placed to pull together the wreckers of the elderly and the | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
vulnerable and the list of the rules and efficient properties and really | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
can see a street but 80% of eligible and 20% are not at his local | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
Government level that they can fill the gap to make sure we do not leave | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
these streets with not done, and all the rage that follows up on our | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
communities. Nor should we underestimate the significance for | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
economies. Home insulation is a skilled job requiring high | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
standards. These jobs are delivered locally. | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
They provide an ideal opportunity for tradespeople to retrain or adapt | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
to small businesses. These are jobs for people in every town in Britain, | :38:33. | :38:39. | |
producing jobs for every person. This fund can help stimulate growth, | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
jobs and innovation. With the fund's principles and priorities set | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
nationally with regional award ship and delivery, art community can | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
benefit in a more profound way beyond traditional compensation | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
grants. At Treasury Questions, I recently asked the Chancellor about | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
his views. He said, and I quote, we have a serious challenge in this | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
country's energy capacity over the next 20 years. And if we are going | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
to have to invest eye watering the large sums of money just to ensure | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
that the lights stay on, of course it makes sense to look at ways of | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
reducing demand for energy to energy conservation measures. The Minister | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
knows I will never shirk from holding the Government to account. I | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
will continue to Pressel bill payers to get their energy prices. For gas | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
to be produced responsibly. And for communities to benefit from local | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
funds. We may disagree from time to time, but I've worked with the | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
minister before, not least to change the law on tax transparency. I will | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
not allow party advantage to prevent the sharing of good ideas or the | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
possibility of finding consensus to meet a problem or find a solution. | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
This debate and the Government's consultation may be such an | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
occasion. Let the shale wealth fund become a warm written fund. A fund | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
that is a friend to those households who get to see the benefits of | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
energy efficiency. A fund that foresees a low carbon Britain and | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
contributes to that goal. A fund that creates jobs in every community | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
uniting politicians and the public for the common good. A fund which | :40:13. | :40:21. | |
truly leaves a legacy. I call the financial Secretary to the Treasury. | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
Thank you very much. Straightaway could I find the Right Honourable | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
Lady for bringing this debate, and for a typically thoughtful and | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
constructive speech. I thank other Honourable members who have stayed | :40:36. | :40:38. | |
to make their contribution on this important topic. I should say | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
straightaway that I absolutely agree that energy efficiency is one of the | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
best ways to reduce energy bills in the long run, so we start on a note | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
of consensus. As the Right Honourable Lady will no, and I make | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
my remarks, the fact that the consultation closed relatively | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
recently limits what I can say, but I enjoyed her speech and I would | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
like to make some general comments about where we are in terms of shale | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
and the shale wealth fund. The Government is backing the | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
development of shale gas. We've got over 50 years experience regulating | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
onshore oil and gas. The UK has the experience to develop our shale gas | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
industry while at the same time ensuring the most robust and | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
stringent protections for our environment, too. We believe, as I | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
sent other members do, that shale gas is an important step forward in | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
a number of respects. They way to secure our energy supply by using | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
our own domestic resources. It also brings the potential for tens of | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
thousands of new jobs across various sectors. I was very struck when I | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
recently chaired our oil and gas Forum in the Treasury, just quite | :41:48. | :41:55. | |
how many jobs are created in supply chains by these sorts of industries. | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
It was one of the most striking things to come out of the | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
discussion. Natural gas will continue to play an important role | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
in our energy system as we move towards a low carbon economy. We are | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
absolutely committed to reducing our carbon emissions by at least 80% by | :42:10. | :42:17. | |
2050 compared to 1990 levels. Front bench members will recognise the | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
importance of a steering soap as part of the global efforts to stop | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
climate change. We are the first country to propose a phase-out of | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
coal with gas and nuclear forming the secure base of our energy mix as | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
we continue to develop renewables and improve energy efficiency. I | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
couldn't agree more that that is an important part of the mix. Shale | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
will be a domestic part as we make the shift from coal to reduce our | :42:43. | :42:47. | |
carbon emissions. Because gas is the cleanest fossil fuel producing half | :42:48. | :42:51. | |
the carbon emissions of coal when it comes to generating power. Studies | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
have shown the carbon footprint of our shale gas would be significantly | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
less than coal and can parable to be liquefied natural gas that we | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
import. In short, the shale gas resources beneath Britain could | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
contribute to our supply, to jobs, and to increase revenue at the same | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
time as providing a bridge to the future we'll support. That's why in | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
the last parliament we put in force the right fiscal framework to ensure | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
that the right incentives I'm place. For investment. And it's worth | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
reminding me how subareas a large investment. We also exploring how we | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
can make the most of the benefits could bring to our economy. | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
Specifically we want to ensure those committees and regions which host | :43:37. | :43:39. | |
shale activity will benefit directly from doing so. And I mean that they | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
should benefit beyond the boost to the local economy you'd expect them | :43:46. | :43:47. | |
to receiving any case from the development of this new industry. | :43:48. | :43:52. | |
The Prime Minister has been very clear on this. Local people must | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
come first. Not only when it comes to their involvement in the planning | :43:57. | :44:00. | |
decisions that affect them with all shale gas applications requiring a | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
full consultation locally. But also sharing the benefits with the area | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
in which the industry is developed. A significant proportion of this is | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
expected in the north and that means that the shale industry could play | :44:13. | :44:14. | |
an important role in economic development of parts of the Northern | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
Powerhouse helping to drive local growth. | :44:19. | :44:29. | |
In the Autumn Statement of 2015, it said that whilst it is that 1%, it | :44:30. | :44:37. | |
is expected to rise to 10%. As the Government going to make good on | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
that one local communities specifically that the 1% dividend | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
will rise significantly? I will be coming onto the dividends | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
for local communities and how we see that working through. Obviously, the | :44:50. | :44:55. | |
shale wealth fund was a big part of how were going to deliver against | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
that benefit for local areas. That will consist initially of up to 10% | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
of all the tax revenues arising from shale gas production and all of this | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
should be used for the benefit of communities which host shale sites. | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
I want to be clearer two points. Firstly this is new funding. | :45:13. | :45:19. | |
Secondly would be in addition to any benefits provided by the shale | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
industry itself because of members know the shale industry is | :45:23. | :45:25. | |
independently committed to make payments to committees which host | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
shale gas developments. The industry commits to providing ?100,000 for | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
each well site of hydraulic fracturing as well as revenue from | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
any site that enters commercial production. The shale wealth fund is | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
in addition to that. We estimate it could provide up to ?1 billion in | :45:47. | :45:49. | |
total and each community could receive up to ?10 million. We want | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
this money to go to was leaving a positive legacy for the future of | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
these areas. I note that the issue of legacy was also undermined the | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
Right Honourable Lady as well. The shale wealth fund will be the latest | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
in a right Hull line of schemes designed to support communities. | :46:07. | :46:14. | |
Including community benefits of ?5,000 per megawatt wind capacity. | :46:15. | :46:21. | |
Briefly. . To follow-up on this point that the wealth fund will be | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
available. As a Lancashire MP where fracking is at the minute, what | :46:26. | :46:32. | |
discussions has she had with Lancashire County Council? About how | :46:33. | :46:40. | |
this may be delivered. Or the LEP, or other interested parties. How | :46:41. | :46:43. | |
does she see this wealth than being delivered at a regional level in | :46:44. | :46:49. | |
Lancashire, for example? Inevitably it's just a bit too early | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
for me to comment in detail on that. The consultation only closed in late | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
October. We've had a substantial number of results which clearly we | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
want to go through very carefully. Those are exactly the sort of issues | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
which people have responded to with quite some detail. I mean we will | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
return to this topic and it will be possible to look at that thing in | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
more detail later on. Suffice to say we have plenty of ideas about how | :47:13. | :47:15. | |
that might work going forward, but we need to look at that carefully. I | :47:16. | :47:22. | |
was given examples of other funds. One example of statutory benefits | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
and the coastal community fund is a similar example. The Government has | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
been clever local community should benefit directly from shale gas | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
resources. Because we're committed to delivering an economy that works | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
for all which ensures the benefits of economic growth and investment | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
spread as widely as possible. But we've also been clear that local | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
people often know best what the needs of their communities. We want | :47:49. | :47:50. | |
and not only benefit from the fund but have a real say over how it | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
operates. That's why we sought views from the country, from our | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
consultation on how the fund should operate and ensure tangible lasting | :48:00. | :48:02. | |
benefits for communities and regions which host shale activity. We asked | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
how the fund should be delivered. We asked what its priorities ought to | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
be. The consultation closed on the 26th of October with an excellent | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
response from a range of individuals and organisations, from members of | :48:15. | :48:22. | |
the House through to charities, local businesses and community | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
groups. We are now looking at those carefully and we plan to publish a | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
response to this consultation by the end of the year. I have the House | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
will understand that therefore I can't give an indication of | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
responses at this stage. With regard to publishing, it will be for | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
respondents themselves to consider publishing their response. But we | :48:43. | :48:44. | |
will provide a list of respondents at the end of the consultation | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
document, as we always do. I would have thought like people like | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
councils would normally make their contributions public and I'm sure | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
given the interest in the debate many people would decide to do that. | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
Mr Speaker, in answer to the right Honourable Lady and her queries | :49:02. | :49:03. | |
about the purpose of the shale wealth fund, the main purpose is | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
clear. The fund is a way of ensuring that as the country develops | :49:08. | :49:17. | |
resources in a safe and sustainable way, community should directly | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
benefit from doing so. This could amount to as much as ?8 billion of | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
extra funding across these regions over time. And say we believe that | :49:26. | :49:28. | |
its local people who should have a say over how best to use any such | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
funding. Whether for example it should support new job | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
opportunities. Develop or enhance community assets. Invest in skills | :49:37. | :49:44. | |
or invest in green energy. I understand submission from | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
Lancashire County Council has talked about the investment going into | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
renewables or energy efficiency. Could I just say to the Minister a | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
little word of warning. As a constituency MP in which we have had | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
the aggregates tax and more, there can be a danger that only the | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
loudest voices get heard on this. I have quite a few local football | :50:06. | :50:08. | |
teams who get more strips the Manchester United because they're | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
back every year putting into funds. Can we think bigger about the impact | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
of this once-in-a-lifetime opportunity? | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
I take this debate very seriously. The fact that it's been taking place | :50:22. | :50:28. | |
in this essentially conventional atmosphere makes me think there was | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
a possibility going forward that as a house we can find things that we | :50:34. | :50:36. | |
agree substantially going forward. We need to look at the responses. | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
I'm sure there will be other contributions and thoughts about how | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
we go forward. We just haven't had the chance to have a look at them | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
yet. The Right Honourable Lady has made a significant contribution to | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
debate this evening and has clearly set the ball bawling in terms of | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
this house's debate on a topic to which I'm sure we will return. We've | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
consulted extensively asking how the shale wealth fund should be | :51:05. | :51:07. | |
delivered, what it should be spent on. And of course I look forward to | :51:08. | :51:11. | |
reporting on the outcome of the consultation in due course. As I | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
say, I feel confident in saying that we will return to debate this | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
important subject further and I thank the Right Honourable Lady, the | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
member for Don Valley, for kicking off the House's debate on it in the | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
fashion that she has this evening. Order. The question is that this | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
house do now adjourn. As many say aye. To the contrary, no. I think | :51:35. | :51:41. | |
the ayes have it. The ayes have it. Order, order. | :51:42. | :51:44. |