Browse content similar to 28/11/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
people dealing with these problems. There is a clear sense across the | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
house that there is an issue here that needs addressing and the | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
government will be looking to take action and I will discuss that with | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
them. Urgent question, Alison McGovern. Will the Minister make a | :00:09. | :00:18. | |
statement on the situation in Aleppo? | :00:19. | :00:28. | |
We are appalled by the entirely preventable humanitarian catastrophe | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
like taking place in the eastern Aleppo and across other besieged | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
areas in Syria. The UN Secretary General has described what is | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
happening in Aleppo as an annihilation. Over the weekend, | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
Syrian regime forces captured several opposition held districts of | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
Aleppo, potentially bisecting the besieged eastern part of the city. | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
There are reports of further advances today. The regime's to a | :00:59. | :01:07. | |
level has been back predominantly by Iranian and Shia militias. There | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
have been unconfirmed reports of Russian air strikes and | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
understanding is that since air strikes resumed a fortnight ago, the | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
vast majority have been by the regime. During that time, hundreds | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
have been killed and thousands more are forced to flee. The last | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
functioning hospital was put out of action on the 19th of November. | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
Humanitarian access has been deliberately blocked by the regime | :01:33. | :01:40. | |
and its allies over four months now, leading to 275,000 civilians in | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
Eastern Aleppo to face imminent starvation. Across the rest of Syria | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
there have been almost no progress in delivering the UN humanitarian | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
plan for November. The latest UN plan to deliver humanitarian aid was | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
agreed by the armed opposition groups last week, but the regime is | :01:59. | :02:05. | |
still blocking it. This is just the latest of many field efforts. I make | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
it clear to Russia that using food as a weapon of war is a war crime. | :02:11. | :02:19. | |
So too is attacking civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and | :02:20. | :02:23. | |
schools and other favoured tool of the regime and its backers. We call | :02:24. | :02:30. | |
upon those with influence on the regime, especially Russia and Iran, | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
to use that influenced him the devastating assault on Eastern | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
Aleppo and ensure that the UN's humanitarian plan can be implemented | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
in full. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said | :02:45. | :02:46. | |
this morning, that requires an immediate ceasefire, and access for | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
impartial humanitarian actors to ensure the protection of vulnerable | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
civilians fleeing the fighting. All involved in the siege and the | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
assault on a level have responsibility to change course to | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
protect civilians. Addressing the dire situation in Eastern Aleppo and | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
the wider Syrian conflict is a priority for this government. I | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
spoke to the British ambassador to the UN this morning to discuss what | :03:17. | :03:22. | |
we can do in the security council to bring diplomatic pressure to bear on | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
the conflict. There can be no military solution to this conflict. | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
What is needed is for the regime and its backers to return to diplomacy | :03:33. | :03:38. | |
and negotiations on political settlement based on transition away | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
from President Assad. The government stands ready to engage fully in | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
discussions and offer whatever support we can in the quest for a | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
political settlement working in partnership with the international | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
community, including Russia. We need to maintain international pressure | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
to that end and that is why we are strong supporters of the recent EU | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
efforts to extend 28 new sanctions against the regime in October and | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
November. In the meantime, we continue to work with our key | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
partners to look at every option to alleviate the suffering of millions | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
of Syrians, especially those in Aleppo. For as long as the regime | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
and its backers deny humanitarian access, whether by land or by air, | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
such options I'm afraid are difficult to come by. But by that | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
same token, the real solution is straightforward. The Syrian regime | :04:39. | :04:43. | |
must simply agree to allow UN aid agencies to access those in need. | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
All that is needed is the decision from Damascus and nothing more. Last | :04:48. | :04:56. | |
week I am the honourable member for Tunbridge Wells and ahead of the | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
serious civil defence force, the White helmets, the Parliament. He | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
told us of the terrible situation in Aleppo, the lack of food, medical | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
supplies and the constant bombing. Since then, the situation has | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
worsened. A renewed assault by President Assad has recaptured a | :05:16. | :05:19. | |
large part of the city, forcing thousands to flee with just the | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
clothes on their backs. This morning and was sent a statement from the | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
White helmets which read, dear friends in Britain, Aleppo within a | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
state of emergency. 279,000 people have been under siege for 94 days | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
and in the last 13 days the Syrian regime and Russia have more than | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
2,000 air strikes and unleashed a variety of banned weapons. We are | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
calling on you as the friends of the Syrian people to act. The Syrian | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
regime and Russia are refusing to let aid into the cities so we are | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
calling you to airdrop aid to provide urgent relief to starving | :05:55. | :06:01. | |
civilians trapped. We do not believe that one of the world's was powerful | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
countries will allow 279,000 people to be starved and bombed to death. | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
My question is this, is the Council of despair that we heard from the | :06:15. | :06:17. | |
Defence Secretary this morning really all we have left? There is | :06:18. | :06:22. | |
something we can do, we can airdrop aid into the besieged areas and as a | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
cross-party letters signed by 126 members of this House has demanded, | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
I asked the Minister to respond to that letter to the Prime Minister | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
here. We can renew the Bush from the UN for the creation of a | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
humanitarian corridor to get help to civilians. The government have | :06:42. | :06:49. | |
always said that error drops are a last resort and they understand | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
that, but Gareth Bailey, the UK's special representative to Syria has | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
tweeted about Aleppo today, the situation in Aleppo could not be | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
more dire, every hospital out of service, no food, nowhere for | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
civilians to run. Does the Minister agree that the government needs an | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
urgent strategy to protect civilians? 100s of thousands of | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
civilians are being starved and bombed into submission, we must | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
consider error drops. It is time for the last resort. What Britain stands | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
for on the world stage is being challenged. This is a test. There is | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
no risk-free course of action left alive believe there is a right | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
course of action. Let us not stand and watch as one of the great cities | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
of the is destroyed, let us not allow 100,000 children to start in | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
Eastern Aleppo. Mr Speaker, when Kosovo was under attack it was | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
Britain who led the way. When Sierra Leone cried out, it was | :07:46. | :07:55. | |
Britain who led the way. The people of Syria need asked to show that the | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
leadership. Gerald Cox said our response to Syria will be an fanatic | :08:01. | :08:08. | |
of our situation. -- Jo Cox. Her words are ever more true today. Let | :08:09. | :08:16. | |
us not fail her. Mrs EJ, firstly can I say how grateful I am that the | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
work she does enraging this matter through questions and indeed with | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
other colleagues as well. I had the opportunity to meet the head of the | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
White helmets, I think, the same time she did as well and he's | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
dressed his frustration that the west was not doing enough as we saw | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
the annihilation of a historical city, going back to the six | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
millennia and the financial district and centre of Syria, almost | :08:44. | :08:51. | |
condemned to ruin. She touches on your letter with 126 now. I made it | :08:52. | :08:58. | |
clear in my statement that we are looking at all options but she must | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
understand and I think it has been repeated in this house before that, | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
were read to do unilateral our multilateral drops, it places asked | :09:08. | :09:18. | |
in harms way. And in conjunction with what is already happening, we | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
have to ask if that is the best and safest way to getting age where we | :09:23. | :09:29. | |
have to go? I say... I say to the honourable lady, we are not ruling | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
out options but we have to ask ourselves, would introducing British | :09:36. | :09:37. | |
aircraft into this environment compound matters all make things | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
worse? Are there safer ways of getting that aid in? What I say, an | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
answer that to that question, because she raises a larger point | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
about what is Britain and international community doing? She | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
mentions the work of Jo Cox as well. I think we can all agree, in this | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
house, that Britain has the ability and aspiration to play a significant | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
role on the world stage. We, in 2013 in August, had that opportunity and | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
read the link. We had an opportunity there to hold Assad to account. | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
Because of that, we had a situation with Russia and Daesh coming in. | :10:27. | :10:34. | |
Sign of what are you doing now?! The question I have is to the house and | :10:35. | :10:41. | |
the person who just screamed from the seat. If we do not give these | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
support we need, our hands are tied as to what we can do. I turned to | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
the front bench who I think are of no different opinion to those there | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
to say that Britain wants to engage on this. We are seeing that five | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
resolution, UN resolutions and the security Council have been vetoed by | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
Russia. We need to look at other opportunities. We can only do that | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
if we have the full support of this Parliament. I hope we will get back. | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
If the executive is to put forward and lean into this challenge in the | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
way in which Jo Cox would expect us to do. The whole house will welcome | :11:20. | :11:28. | |
the unequivocal statement that the Minister made on the Government that | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
Russia is committing war crimes in Aleppo and Syria. The position in | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
Aleppo is unclear today but two things they can say our, will be | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
Government or its undoubted diplomatic efforts and then every | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
thing you to secure access for UN and you and Jerry and support? | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
Secondly, everything you to secure a ceasefire so negotiations can begin? | :11:54. | :12:04. | |
Firstly, can I also offer my congratulations to my honourable | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
friend who is again engaged in this and done his best to make sure that | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
this Parliament is up to date and devolved in what is actually | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
happening there. -- involved. He touched on the war crime issue and I | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
have to say, it is unlikely we can holders perpetrated to account. | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
Today tomorrow. We will hold them to account in the months and years to | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
come. We are keeping lists and understanding who are the military | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
leaders who are conducting these air attacks no matter what country they | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
are coming from and all of those participating in supporting the | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
Syrian regime must remember that their day in the International Court | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
will come. We are collecting evidence to make sure we can hold | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
them to account. With regards to you an access, which touches on an | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
important question of air drops. The UN themselves has literally tonnes, | :12:57. | :13:04. | |
ten of thousands of material, Kit, that they want to get into these | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
areas and they have been denied asylum by the regime -- Syrian | :13:08. | :13:14. | |
regime. We cannot use their roads or airspace that the permission to do | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
so we will end up with the same situation that happened on the 19th | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
of September when a UN led convoy moved into Aleppo and was actually | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
destroyed from the air by Russian aeroplanes. Thank you very much for | :13:28. | :13:35. | |
granting this urgent question from my honourable friend, the member for | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
rural south. As she has made very clear, there is no situation worse | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
in the world right now than the Unitarian crisis in eastern Aleppo. | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
The amount of civilian casualties, no food supply. -- humanitarian. | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
Lots of people already facing starvation. We have reached the | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
point of last resort. The Government has previously made clear what that | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
should mean. The former Secretary of State said, in June this year, this | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
quote, while airdrops are complex and risky, they are the mass resort | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
to relieving human suffering across many diseased areas. -- alas resort. | :14:15. | :14:23. | |
Nobody is underestimating the risk involved but, with no alternatives, | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
thousands facing death without immediate supplies of food and | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
medical equipment, these are risks we must be prepared to take. Can I | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
ask the Minister once more, will he take the urgent steps required to | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
day to agree a plan for air drops by British planes with EU an and our | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
international partners as has been called for by the White helmets, | :14:47. | :14:49. | |
whose representatives I met last week? It was asked at the weekend, | :14:50. | :15:04. | |
what was planned in the Russia -- if Russia and Assad continued to block | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
roads? He said plan B was people starving. Can we allow that to | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
happen? We cannot. He is quite right, Mr Speaker and I have that | :15:15. | :15:23. | |
the Minister will agree. Mr Speaker, firstly, I should say that Britain | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
was a humanitarian effort should be praised by everyone in this house. | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
?2.3 billion, the second largest owner. ?23 million of that is going | :15:34. | :15:39. | |
direct to you in organisations geared to making sure that aid gets | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
to the most urgent places required. We are now debating the tactics as | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
to how to get that equipment into place and she is now navigating the | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
British aeroplanes, they delete paragraph or otherwise, get into | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
Syrian air space and make those drops. They will be shot down. My | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
honourable friend for the Armed Forces, I'm not sure that the UN is | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
requesting air drops at the moment. I'm not saying they will be rolled | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
out. I'm not saying you should be doing them. -- ruled alt. They are | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
not being dismissed. I simply share with the added that it is hugely | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
complicated and having been involved in airdrops on many occasions, many | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
when the drop zone is particularly small, the jet landed the small | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
place and is the very people who don't want to receive it. It is | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
important that the scale that I touched on before of the agent that | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
needs to get in means that the number of sources that would be | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
needs to be conducted is enormous. You can get your exact location with | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
transport trucks if they are given the conditions. If we are to conduct | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
air strikes, and I'm sorry to labour the point, but it requires seaweed | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
and support. If we can get Syrian support, it is better we get Syrian | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
support to our La Liga to go through so they go to the people are | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
requiring them. -- so they go through. I think my honourable | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
friend men airdrops rather than air strikes but we can be very proud as | :17:20. | :17:26. | |
to what the do as a country. Especially in the camps and running | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
Syria. Today was the question is about those trapped in the mid-30s | :17:31. | :17:35. | |
situation in Aleppo. What this house is trying to convey to my honourable | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
friend is something around the most urgent issues in global politics | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
today. We think this is an opportunity for the British | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
Government to show leadership and to convene likely partners and | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
kick-start the peace process and peace talks. But to come to be | :17:57. | :18:01. | |
housed with concrete ideas about how we can alleviate the suffering of | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
those men, women and children in what remains of one of the great | :18:05. | :18:12. | |
cities of Syria. Mr Speaker, my honourable friend gives me a license | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
to pay tribute to the neighbouring countries of Syria for the work they | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
have done in taking on board literally millions of refugees. 11 | :18:20. | :18:25. | |
on, Turkey and Jordan in particular. One of the reasons we have organised | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
the conference this year is make sure there are funds available. -- | :18:31. | :18:36. | |
Jo Cox. So the country can make -- Lebanon. So they can make sure they | :18:37. | :18:43. | |
can return back to Syria one day and that the countries have their | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
resources. We speak about Britain wanting to do more here. I had it is | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
not misconstrued what I said earlier, I want to, I would like to | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
but we are at the will of Parliament is to actually do that and make sure | :18:59. | :19:06. | |
it happens. Honourable members opposite say... Yes, five | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
opportunities in the Syrian vote did the Leader of the Opposition have | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
and we ended up... Not having the opportunity to check Daesh before | :19:17. | :19:26. | |
that was created and full Assad to account. I absolutely welcome it. I | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
know passions are running highly and that is to be understood but it | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
might help the house to know that I do intend to call everyone. There is | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
many for any honourable member to speak from her seat. She will have | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
the opportunity to speak in due course on her feet. This mean Ahmed | :19:49. | :20:12. | |
Sheikh. -- Tasmina. A court of 1 million people have been trapped in | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
the East End in the summer. There are no functioning hospitals, no | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
more food. An independent and delivers have said that at least 219 | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
civilians were killed. Finding a practical political solution to | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
ending this situation is complex and challenging what I say to the | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
Minister, no practical challenge should be too tough. No obstacle to | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
insurmountable to do the right thing by these people's suffering is | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
growing day by day and she could fail to be moved by the | :20:44. | :20:52. | |
seven-year-old who is live teeting from Aleppo asking for help while | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
bombs are falling. -- tweeting. What discussions have taken place with | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
Russia to the man that they sign up now to the agreement brokered by the | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
UN to provide aid. Can I add the Minister what practical assistance | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
has been offered by UK forces to deliver a? -- aid. As I say, we are | :21:11. | :21:21. | |
doing our best work through neutral places. As they start to act as a | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
unilateral operator in this very difficult and complex, multisided | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
environment, we are seeing and can be labelled as an antagonist in some | :21:30. | :21:35. | |
form by the Russians and by the Syrians as well. That is the | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
obligation that we have. If we alternatively do things do the 19 | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
nations -- through the United Nations. That is how we will do it | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
and that is how we are pushing our effort and are funds to support the | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
work of the UN itself. She said and sorry to repeat this point and | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
summarise, it is by two pictures that I use as an example in this | :22:00. | :22:07. | |
house. The boy that has photographed at being bombed. He was alive and | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
thrown in the back of an ambulance, members may recall. There is another | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
stark image reminding us of the help of Syria. Alan Kennedy, the poor boy | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
who was washed up on the jaded beach. Is that the joy they are | :22:23. | :22:30. | |
leaving? I don't want that to be. I want us to do more. I hope we can | :22:31. | :22:32. | |
achieve that. I have organised error drops in the | :22:33. | :22:47. | |
benign environment, and that is the ideal situation because error drops | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
are low, they are not high. Aircraft carrying them out are very | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
vulnerable. If this House wants to carry out error drops in and | :22:59. | :23:08. | |
non-benign environment, expect our aircraft to be brought down. If that | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
is the risk this Parliament wishes to take, please in future vote for | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
it and everyone in this House should take responsibility for that vote | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
when an RAF aircraft containing seven or eight people are brought | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
into the ground and everyone is killed, because that is the | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
responsibility this House will have to bear. My right honourable friend | :23:40. | :23:50. | |
with the experience he brings to the house shows the challenges we face. | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
We need to work with the United Nations and get their advice on how | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
best to get the aid in. I do not rule out the use of the drops, but | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
it has to be that last resort when we are unable to get the trucks and | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
by getting permission on the ground. I think in truth all of us in the | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
house and the world feel ashamed at the fact that we are unable to bring | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
food and medical supplies to the 250,000 people trapped in Eastern | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
Aleppo, including 100,000 children. They are in harm's weighed today. I | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
understand the difficulties, including the point made by the | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
honourable gentleman a moment ago about error drops, but back in the | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
summer the then Foreign Secretary told the house that agreement had | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
been reached if necessary to use error drops and they simply say to | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
the Minister, if this is not the last resort given what we are seeing | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
reported daily, then what on earth is? Again I pay tribute to the right | :24:57. | :25:03. | |
honourable gentleman and the work he has done in this area. I listen very | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
carefully to what he has said. I spent some time talking about this | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
with the head of mission at the United Nations in New York to | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
discuss what we can actually do. Unless we have permission for | :25:19. | :25:22. | |
aircraft to enter that error space, not necessarily British aircraft but | :25:23. | :25:25. | |
any aircraft to enter that space, then the dangers likely to be faced | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
considerable. We need to weigh that up to make sure we are content for | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
those risks to be taken. I have immense sympathy for my honourable | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
friend and the people of Syria have had no better friend over the past | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
years than in this government in the Minister and I fully appreciate the | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
difficulty he is in. Whatever it is we may have asked the Prime | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
Minister, and I signed the letter as well, we need to remember that the | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
United Kingdom is not the perpetrator here, we are seeking to | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
do something good. Can I ask my honourable friend following on the | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
question from the gentleman opposite, it was in May that the | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
international Syria support group agreed, and that includes the United | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
States and Russia, that if by June one the UN had been denied | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
humanitarian access to any of the besieged areas then would call upon | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
the world food programme to meet Judy out our programme for error | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
bridges and error drops. If it was possible at that time in the | :26:31. | :26:34. | |
circumstances to get the agreements he is seeking for error drops, is it | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
not possible to redouble those efforts to receive the permission | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
that he needs and those that would be asking to drop the food would | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
also get the permission they need to proceed? The work of the | :26:47. | :26:54. | |
international Syrian support group has been difficult and tested at the | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
last meeting that took place at the UN General Assembly that I attended | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
with the Foreign Secretary. It was clear that Russia was starting to | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
split away with it intends to provide support in order to look for | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
a political settlement, which was what was the purpose in bringing the | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
group together itself. Again, we are left with the situation of gaining | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
the necessary permission for the aircraft to move forward. I will | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
certainly consider what he has said and if I can read back to him more | :27:27. | :27:32. | |
details. I have a lot of time for this Minister but you shouldn't | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
rewrite history about what happened in 2013. As one of the Labour MPs | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
who did support action against President Assad back then, point out | :27:41. | :27:48. | |
to him that he has two Foreign Office ministers on his own benches, | :27:49. | :27:50. | |
former Secretary of State on his own ventures. The Labour front Labour | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
backbenchers are all: for the government to bring something back | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
to this House on error drops, so why didn't he just do it? Firstly, why | :27:57. | :28:04. | |
didn't we just do it, because of the challenging issues that we face. We | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
don't have permission to send an aircraft. We saw what happened to | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
the Russian aircraft that wandered into Turkish airspace. We would need | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
to gain the permissions to make that happen. On the first part, I don't | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
wish to antagonise the house and trying to rewrite history. It is as | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
much as this government's fault for failing to win across all Parliament | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
Aryans. For me, that is the biggest mistake from our government that we | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
did not take with us Parliament itself. We collectively needed to | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
work together to make sure that all of us are up-to-date and outweighed | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
the executive can be empowered to do such things, whether it be no-fly | :28:47. | :28:51. | |
zones were dropping aids, but only with the will and support of | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
Parliament can we make that move forward. Has any estimate been made | :28:55. | :29:05. | |
of the willingness of refugees to return to Syria if the regime | :29:06. | :29:13. | |
prevails? Yes. My understanding is that the absolute majority wish to | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
return to Syria. This is the homeland, where they grew up and | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
where they want to return to. It is one of the reasons why, which is | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
debated regularly in the size, the amount of money that we spent on | :29:26. | :29:29. | |
taking on refugees in this country compared with the amount of money | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
that we pour into looking after refugees in the region. It is not | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
the same support that we can offer, but the same amount of money goes 20 | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
times further per individual, that is why we in the summer to and | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
supporting Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey because they want to stay in | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
the region where the language is similar and they can return as | :29:54. | :29:55. | |
quickly as possible once the fighting stops. He knows that I | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
respect him and I know that he wants to do more but I have to say that | :30:02. | :30:05. | |
for a Minister of the ground to stand at the dispatch box and | :30:06. | :30:11. | |
effectively read from a Kremlin press release and saying that any | :30:12. | :30:17. | |
aid mission will be shot down is a poisonous and sickening counsel of | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
despair. He has said that he wants parliamentary backing for us to do | :30:24. | :30:29. | |
more, for unilateral or multilateral missions. I say to him he has got | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
that so why doesn't government get the courage of his conviction and | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
make sure that this can be another Kosovo, rather than another Rwanda? | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
Firstly, in Kosovo we had troops on the ground, it was a different | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
situation, we had control of the airspace. There is the possibility | :30:50. | :30:59. | |
that the British aircraft could be shot down. If I said anything near | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
it and I correct myself and use this opportunity to say that we are | :31:05. | :31:09. | |
putting British air personnel in harm's way. I hope that something he | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
will concur with, it is a consideration that honourable | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
friends such as the Minister for Armed Forces must take into | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
consideration when they provide a recommendation to the Foreign Office | :31:23. | :31:25. | |
as to whether this is practical or not. My honourable friend the | :31:26. | :31:37. | |
Minister's frustration is both palpable and entirely understandable | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
and it flows back to the August 2013 votes. Times have somewhat changed, | :31:42. | :31:50. | |
the Labour Party is of a different complexion and others have commented | :31:51. | :31:52. | |
this parliament since then. With my honourable friend think it's | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
sensible for the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence in ten Downing | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
St to perhaps go away and come back in ten or 14 days' time with a | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
proposal to put before this House so that this matter can be fully | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
debated, all of the concerns a honourable friend the Minister for | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
the Armed Forces may have and other people of military and other | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
experience have spoken about this afternoon can be considered and | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
debated so that we can come to a single answer to what is a hugely | :32:28. | :32:37. | |
complex problem? I concur with my right honourable friend, it is | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
important that we are able to move forward on this and be aware of the | :32:41. | :32:45. | |
consequences of us doing nothing. Sitting here with the briefings that | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
I receive and the responsibility that I have is the Minister for the | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Middle East, I say I am very conscious of the comments and the | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
concerns and the anger that has been expressed here today. We have to | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
work with what is the art of the possible and the art of the legal. | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
The Foreign Office is looking at various options and I do hope that | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
we will be able to advance this, better understand ourselves and | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
better understand, better educate the British public so we took the | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
British public with us, which was a concern back in 2013, as well. We | :33:21. | :33:25. | |
were all haunted by Afghanistan and Iraq. Was this another issue that we | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
were going to get sucked into? Things are different now, so | :33:33. | :33:34. | |
absolutely we should move forward on that note. Since the critical final | :33:35. | :33:42. | |
phase of the assault on Aleppo started, with which foreign | :33:43. | :33:45. | |
governments has the Minister discuss the feasibility of error drops? As I | :33:46. | :33:53. | |
say, the discussion on error drops has been debated and discussed with | :33:54. | :34:00. | |
the Americans and that was raised at the International serious support | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
group and a it this morning with our UN head of mission, he himself was | :34:06. | :34:12. | |
discussing it with... As our representative in New York. My | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
predecessor, Stephen O'Brien, has been working hard to call out these | :34:19. | :34:26. | |
war crimes for what they are. Can the Minister reassure me that | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
British air assets, in particular I in the sky assets, are being used to | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
gather evidence that can then be available for the international | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
criminal war crimes tribunal to make sure that when these people are held | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
to account we have the evidence to prove that? My honourable friend | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
raises an important point. I won't go into detail as to how we are | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
collecting that evidence, that would be operationally unhelpful, | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
particularly with the Minister for the Armed Forces sitting next to me, | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
but that is exactly what doing. It may take some time. We are | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
identifying those responsible, those in leadership position to giving the | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
orders for the strikes to take place and for those siege to occur on | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
Aleppo and we will hold those people to account. If I made tribute to | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
Stephen O'Brien, a former colleague in this House, who is doing a | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
commendable job. The work that he is doing in turn highlighting the | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
plight, the humanitarian plight of what is going on, I think we can all | :35:30. | :35:39. | |
be very proud of the work is doing. I was distressed by the implication | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
in the Minister's remarks that those of us who voted against the strikes | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
in Syria were somehow responsible for his decision not to put forward | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
error drops 48. Frankly, at that point we were not convinced that the | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
balance of harm was being sorted in the right way. I think that if he | :36:01. | :36:08. | |
was to today call for a vote in this House that those people who like me | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
opposed military strikes on Syria would strongly be supporting any | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
action that can get humanitarian aid to those starving communities. What | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
is he going to do? And he is talking about it, what is he going to do to | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
get this aid to the people who are starving? All actions will be done, | :36:30. | :36:35. | |
or should be done through the United Nations. This is because they are | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
the conduit that can be deemed by the Syrian regime and by Russia as | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
being as neutral. Off we turn up ourselves and start doing these aid | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
drops I hope the honourable lady will understand how that changes the | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
dynamics of our involvement in the area, in difficult terrain. I not | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
ruling it just saying it is a more complicated scenario. The United | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
Nations does conduct that the drops, it has the capability, that facility | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
to do so. It only does occur it has the permission the Syrian regime. | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
That is the important part. On the latter part, I am sorry that this | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
government did not do more to win people like her cells across. That | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
was our failure as much as anybody else. That is if anything what we | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
need to learn out of what happened in August 2,000 13. | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
As one of the members who have visited the RAF and looking to the | :37:35. | :37:43. | |
C130 cruiser you would be acting to do this, I think we should be very | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
careful to avoid the "Something must be done" response to what is | :37:51. | :37:52. | |
absolutely understandably something that shames humanity and, in recent | :37:53. | :38:02. | |
years, with us on a par with Rwanda and other events that have shamed us | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
collectively in the west. Learning from this, is there not other | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
actions that can be taken, not only to hold Russia to account but to | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
look at what really hurts that legal regime? -- evil regime. People are | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
making business there, educating their children in this country from | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
connections to that regime. They need to understand that they cannot | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
bed with impunity and seek to enjoy the benefits that we all take | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
granted in this country. Again, I pay tribute to my honourable friend | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
with his military experience. The role of a C130 in conducting such an | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
airdrop with the extremely difficult indeed. We do not rule it out. It is | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
prone to a huge challenge. The Basques what more can be done. The | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
heart of this, is Russia. They are pivotal in being able to influence | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
exercised -- exercise influence over Assad and allowing humanitarian | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
access in. Unfortunately, they're been five resolutions that have been | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
vetoed, preventing even the most basic humanitarian access from | :39:16. | :39:18. | |
getting through. Canadians are now looking at an assembly vote which | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
would require half of those if it is not an assembly session. Again, | :39:26. | :39:29. | |
tricky with Russia using their influence. We are collectively | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
looking to see if the UN machine isn't working at this dire | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
situation, and we are relying on it -- reminded of Rwanda, then what can | :39:40. | :39:50. | |
we do. Can I just say that Kosovo didn't have a resolution and many of | :39:51. | :39:58. | |
article on William Hague in 2011-2012 to support now flies ends, | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
similar to what John Major had done to project the Kurds in Iraq. We | :40:02. | :40:13. | |
have allowed people to do this by failing to act not in 2013, but in | :40:14. | :40:23. | |
2011 and 2012 when Assad started this. We need to act, even without a | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
security Council resolution, in order to save hundreds of thousands | :40:29. | :40:40. | |
of lives. Following Rwanda, Mr Speaker, there was a issue where a | :40:41. | :40:49. | |
reader choosing to kill their own people is initiated for you not | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
being able to stand by. With phrases such as genocide that game at | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
justify the inability of hesitance to step forward. He is suggesting | :40:58. | :41:04. | |
something which is to bypass the legally actions on how we actually | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
move forward. In Kosovo, they're there to on the ground and we had | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
support in the region and local support as well. In Kurdistan, the | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
RSA UN resolution which backed that as well. -- there was a. When do we | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
get into the situation and do the right thing, but do not have | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
international legal cover because it has been prevented by a P5 vendor | :41:29. | :41:35. | |
who has vetoed at every opportunity? I'm sure the Minister, for the | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
reasons given, is right to rule our unilateral action but what does he | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
mean by his attacks on the Labour front bench and people like me, | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
refusing to support military action in Syria? What could possibly be | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
achieved by more bombs falling on this country? Surely our priority | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
should BBC. We have do condemn violence wherever it comes from. The | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
terrible violence inflicted by the Assad regime but also unusual in | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
Western Aleppo which was not reported widely. I had the Minister | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
will condemn that. If our priority is these and condemning violence, we | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
have to accept that whether we like it or not the appalling Assad and | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
his Russian backers will stay so we had to drop the demand that they get | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
out and engage with everybody, that is Assad, the Russians, the Sunni | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
rebels to get these because that is what everyone wants. I think my | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
honourable friend is a very familiar that the conflict make of the | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
country that today is Syria. With all its history. It is likely that | :42:41. | :42:46. | |
they will be a federated model once we move forward from this | :42:47. | :42:48. | |
recognising the differences in groupings in the country but today, | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
the do vaguely situation where Russia is batting all its money in | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
the region. It has a connection. -- regime. This goes back many years | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
and it has to be honoured and reflexes. I say to all of the | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
Russians, have a relationship with the people of Syria, not with the | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
Syrian regime. Have a conversation with the leader, the coordinator of | :43:16. | :43:21. | |
the free Syrian opposition. Move forward from there so that Russia | :43:22. | :43:28. | |
can continue having an influence, if you like, in a place but not | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
attacking its self to the tyrant that is president Assad. Next week, | :43:33. | :43:45. | |
could be Minister need to discuss the future of Syria with one that | :43:46. | :43:58. | |
act beach? I do make an opportunity if I can to meet with any people who | :43:59. | :44:04. | |
are in the area, any representatives. Anywhere that every | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
opposition is as well to engage and I'd be delighted with we got in this | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
and discuss it further. Mr Speaker, I also signed the letter for airdrop | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
spot as a former RAF serviceman, can I say how much I appreciate not only | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
be Minister's concern but my honourable friend from Beckenham as | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
well. I appreciate that. Can the Minister tell us whether he is aware | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
that the Prime Minister having the opportunity to raise the Minister of | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
air drops with the general secretary of Nato when he at ten damage the | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
last year? Firstly, can I pay tribute to my honourable friend and | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
I think was involved in the air campaign in Kurdistan and he brings | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
a huge amount of expertise to the chamber. I'm afraid I am not aware | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
of the details. I know the subject of Syria came up and maybe if I | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
could write to him with more details of the conversation? In the letter, | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
the honourable member for rural south who I may congratulate for | :45:08. | :45:20. | |
this issue -- Wirral, she said that we now have to go to love because | :45:21. | :45:27. | |
they have nothing to lose. The situation has got worse, so I don't | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
know what has happened to Dean 's easy as back in May and my | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
constituents and others in this as a whole by what they have seen back in | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
the news. -- the situation. Why is the enthusiasm for air drops as | :45:40. | :45:51. | |
there was with the morning. -- when bombing. That is not a good | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
comparison to make because they will be how can they be made clear. We | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
are looking at what he can do deserve support the concept of an | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
drops itself. That with all the dangers and Gary that have also been | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
expressed as well. I make it clear that we take the lead from the | :46:09. | :46:11. | |
United Nations on the ground. If we are to do this in a neutral manner, | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
it has to be done three U N. Every step in, we take on a very different | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
perspective of our involvement in the Syriac campaign from which we | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
would need the permission and bought this house. -- Syrian. Can I share | :46:26. | :46:36. | |
my concern with the honourable member from Newbury about an drops | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
in this house coming with huge risks? If they are to be done | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
unilaterally, would my honourable friend who is in a difficult | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
situation agree with me that we not only need five to cover of, but the | :46:49. | :46:55. | |
Accra to deliver, helicopters and special forces to pick up the down | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
crews if they were down and wounded and we do risk the awful prospect of | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
seeing our own service personnel being dragged through the streets of | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
guilt in some horrific manner by people down there behaving like | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
barbarians. We agree with the concern? -- would he agree? Thank | :47:12. | :47:23. | |
you. My honourable friend does bring forward a lot of reasonable | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
concerns. There is a lot of air cover needed, an agency operations | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
in case pilots have to bail out, rescue missions that had to take | :47:33. | :47:35. | |
place and you would also be left with the rather stark challenge of | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
hostages being taken. These need to be taken to consideration from an | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
operational concern as to how we get the age to where they wanted to go. | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
The UN to conduct an drops themselves but only where they have | :47:52. | :48:02. | |
the clear permission by the regime. And Putin's modus operandi is the | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
excessive use of force. We have seen it many times. We saw it not believe | :48:07. | :48:21. | |
in the Crimea and Georgia. The situation in Syria, that robust | :48:22. | :48:29. | |
facing up to Putin is now fracturing. How were the governor | :48:30. | :48:31. | |
and make sure that we maintain a steady, robust cause? He's dealt | :48:32. | :48:40. | |
out... My honourable friend who has got huge experience and knowledge of | :48:41. | :48:43. | |
Russia spelt out the challenge that we face in actually getting the | :48:44. | :48:48. | |
Russians to come to the table, recognising the web originating | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
provided but that there is not a threat, in my view, for Russia's | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
continued influence he touches on events but look at the Balkans, | :49:01. | :49:07. | |
Baltics. The Iron Curtain. The issue Russia had was enormous. -- | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
influence. Every tiny country's swing to the west, Russia loses that | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
their influence. At the heart of this, they don't want to lose a | :49:16. | :49:18. | |
maritime, Mediterranean influence that is so critical to them. Thank | :49:19. | :49:26. | |
you. I'm sure the Minister although I agree that they seemed in however | :49:27. | :49:29. | |
were targeted and that starvation is being used as a weapon of war bring | :49:30. | :49:35. | |
up Derby reads from particularly the 1930s. International law was | :49:36. | :49:41. | |
supposed to stop this. What lessons can be learned from these situations | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
and can be taken into this one? I think something we are looking at | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
very carefully is, where is international left after this | :49:52. | :49:57. | |
experience in Aleppo and Syria? When you get to the point that the UN in | :49:58. | :50:03. | |
New York is unable as an international body which build | :50:04. | :50:09. | |
alliances, designed to solve bring together states, 192 of them, in | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
order to solve the world's problems cannot because of a single permanent | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
member who can veto everything. That is a huge question for us to answer | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
and a question that we need to say, how do we circumnavigate that? | :50:25. | :50:31. | |
Aleppo's hospitals are out of action meaning medic Saskia amputate limbs | :50:32. | :50:39. | |
of children without anaesthetic. -- medics have two. He knows there is a | :50:40. | :50:46. | |
safer way to do so but he knows the latest humanitarian convoy has been | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
bombed in September. He knows there will be no political solution while | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
Assad and Putin think they can win the other hand through military | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
activity. The residents of a letter to deny want to die. It is in our | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
power to help them. -- the residents of Aleppo do not want to die. When | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
do we help them? The honourable lady I think now these issues well and | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
she raises the 19th of September convoy and I have taken some notes | :51:20. | :51:26. | |
from that. This was approved by the Syrian Foreign Ministry. It was | :51:27. | :51:32. | |
trucks loaded by the red Crescent, enough equipment for 78,000 people | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
and it came to a checkpoint, the UN were told to leave the vehicles and | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
Aleppo residents were told to jump in the regionals. There are Russian | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
and following this all the way until it got to Aleppo territory and then | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
the aeroplane came in and bombed every single truck. -- drones. That | :51:56. | :52:03. | |
was with permission and with approval. They know what they are | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
doing and this is the regime we are looking in which makes asked... The | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
challenge of looking at those people so difficult indeed. | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
On a way forward in Syria, are key ally, the United States, its | :52:16. | :52:23. | |
President-elect has said that Syria is an influence of Russia. If that | :52:24. | :52:32. | |
you remains, will we charter rule foreign policy position on Syria and | :52:33. | :52:42. | |
the region? If I may, if I can pay tribute to the work of John Kerry in | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
trying to bring the various stakeholders together. He has worked | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
tirelessly in order to make this happen and I am sorry we have not | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
had greater progress with the Syrian support group. We wait to see what | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
the new administration's strategy and approaches to this. I would | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
simply say that we need to work very closely with our international | :53:07. | :53:09. | |
partners, not least America to make sure that we can exert greater | :53:10. | :53:22. | |
influence on Russia. The honourable member has alluded to the words of a | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
seven-year-old he said on Twitter last Sunday that her home in a level | :53:28. | :53:30. | |
had been bombed. She was sent there were under heavy bombardment and in | :53:31. | :53:35. | |
between life and death, please keep praying for us. There is no fool | :53:36. | :53:41. | |
even chilling hospitals left on Aleppo and food ran out in early | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
November. What recent discussions has he had with the Foreign to with | :53:45. | :53:54. | |
other nations of goodwill about humanitarian relief? Our prayers are | :53:55. | :54:06. | |
not enough, surely it is time to act and if you do that you would have | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
large swathes of the size behind you. I don't know if he is | :54:10. | :54:21. | |
speaking... The Prime Minister raised the issue of Syria at the | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
last European Council. Our ambassador in New York is also | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
engaged on this. Britain wants to make sure that we can keep the | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
pressure up on trying to effect an avenue to get the aid in. If that | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
isn't forthcoming, we need to look at other options. People in | :54:42. | :54:48. | |
Kettering horrified by the news that 250,000 people in Aleppo have no | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
access to hospital care and are facing imminent famine and will be | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
conscious that that is a population equivalent to two and a half times | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
the number in the borough of capturing itself. To get the sense | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
of the scale of the humanitarian effort required, could the Minister | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
tell the house high many Hercules aircraft or high many trucks going | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
in on the ground would be required to supply the requisite needs of the | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
population of 250,000? It is probably more a question for my | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
counterpart to give you the details of that. It is an interesting | :55:27. | :55:30. | |
comparison that needs to be made. I can say that the number of trucks | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
that were anticipated to go through are dozens daily in order to keep | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
the people of Aleppo alive unsupported. I have a great deal of | :55:39. | :55:46. | |
respect for the Minister but I am disappointed that today was not a | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
statement from the government. Doesn't the Minister believe that it | :55:51. | :55:53. | |
would strengthen the hand of the government on the world stage in | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
terms of the go see a thing around the drops to have the will of this | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
Parliament expresses few through a motion brought but the government? | :56:01. | :56:07. | |
If we are to move forward on this then we need to work together. We | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
need to take the British nation with us, we need to work as a parliament | :56:12. | :56:17. | |
as well. I hear what she says. We need to make sure that we debate | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
these matters on a more regular basis or people are prepared to | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
recognise the dangers that we may be putting our service personnel in, | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
but also the options that are available for us to lean forward on | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
this and get the result that we want. The Minister has been very | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
candid about his reflections on the vote taken in this House back in | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
August 2013, but what direct impact is that Parliamentary vote having on | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
policy thinking now, given that if one of our plane to shut out of the | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
sky you have to retaliate? Without revisiting the question too much, I | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
do believe that collectively our inability to secure that vote before | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
Russia had moved into this sphere, before Daesh was a word that we even | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
knew what it meant, that was our opportunity to hold President Assad | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
to account. For different reasons we blinked. Government needs to learn | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
what more we can do collectively to work together to make sure that we | :57:24. | :57:32. | |
don't repeat that mistake again. In his initial answer to the urgent | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
question he rightly labelled the bombing of hospitals and other acts | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
as war crimes by the Syrian government forces and Russia. At | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
that amount can he explain further what specific measures the UK | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
Government can take to bring those responsible account? As I say, we | :57:49. | :57:57. | |
put forward, or a motion was put forward with British support that | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
not leaving honoured by the UN Security Council to slide this | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
across to the International Criminal Court. It was, guess what, vetoed by | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
Russia. We are collecting evidence to make sure that in due course, and | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
it may take some time as I mentioned earlier, told those who are | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
perpetrating the damage, causing the atrocities, to hold them to account | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
in the longer term. The Minister has set out in some detail the | :58:27. | :58:31. | |
difficulties that he had his colleagues face in dealing with this | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
very difficult situation and I appreciate that. He did however say | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
that the government were considering a number of options. Given that we | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
have 100,000 children on the point of starting and 250,000 people in | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
total in during the conditions in Aleppo, will he undertake to come | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
back to the house with a statement next week about the options that the | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
government are considering and setting out what the government | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
proposes to do, because this situation is incredibly urgent? What | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
they will say is I agree with what she says and I would say that it is | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
important that we keep the house updated. I will endeavour to do that | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
on a regular basis, either myself or the Foreign Secretary or the Defence | :59:21. | :59:28. | |
Secretary as well. I agree with her. I thank the Minister for his | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
statement and according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
at least 225 civilians have been killed, which includes 27 children | :59:39. | :59:44. | |
since the latest assault started on the 15th of November. The government | :59:45. | :59:47. | |
must do all that possibly can to assist those in Syria now, but they | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
must also do more on helping those who have managed to flee the | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
complex. Will the Minister please commit to pushing his Cabinet | :59:57. | :59:59. | |
colleagues into accepting more refugees from this war-torn country? | :00:00. | :00:06. | |
I touched on this earlier. There is a choice between whether we look | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
after refugees in this country, and we have thousands coming this way, | :00:11. | :00:17. | |
or we provide support in the region themselves. For the prize will | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
capture one refugee in the UK, it to looking around 20 in the region | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
itself. Different standards, absolutely. But they hoped she | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
recognises that we have leaned into this with ?2.2 billion worth of | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
support, doing our part in the region itself. I pay tribute to all | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
of our Armed Forces in service around the world and I know that no | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
one in this House would ever put them in harms way unless there was | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
no alternative, so I asked the Minister what other alternatives is | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
he looking at in terms of truant or unmanned aircraft to do these kind | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
of the drops? I would also say to him that I could think of few were | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
other clear-cut humanitarian crisis like this in my lifetime that would | :01:07. | :01:12. | |
deserve an intervention by British service people to protect the | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
children. We want to use our influence with our allies and others | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
to work across not just the military aspect in making sure that if our | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
military word used to provide the necessary humanitarian relief, but | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
also work on the diplomatic corridors to get a political | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
solution as well. It is not just one area we are looking at, we are | :01:37. | :01:45. | |
trying to work across the piece. There is huge public support for | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
skilled up humanitarian intervention. What contingency plans | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
are in place so if permission comes for a drops they can become | :01:55. | :02:00. | |
immediately? I won't be able to cancer that. It is an operational | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
decision as to hire any form of the drops might be conducted and must | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
form part of a wider package of humanitarian support for those | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
people requiring it. It is extremely public if it so I hope I am not able | :02:14. | :02:22. | |
to give a direct answer. I voted against the air strikes in 2013 and | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
I also agree with the Minister about the need to deliver aid on the | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
ground, not least because some of the that is needed is medical care, | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
physical and mental, which can only be delivered in person. However, I | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
have signed the letter that has been published this morning because the | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
people of Aleppo are suffering in the most acute circumstances and it | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
is no longer acceptable for me when my constituents to stand by. Can I | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
call on the Minister and his colleagues to bring forward Atherley | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
workplan at the earliest opportunity to the site explaining believe the | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
risks so that honourable members can take a decision on fully informed | :03:04. | :03:14. | |
basis. Our constituents want us to alleviate the suffering in Aleppo at | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
the earliest possible opportunity. When we had a meeting co-hosted by | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
John Kerry and the Foreign Secretary only a couple of weeks ago, John | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
Kerry give oppressed in saying that he felt there was no appetite to do | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
more in a general capacity in dealing with the situation in | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
Aleppo. That was his observations having spoken to not just visiting | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
this country but speaking to leaders across Europe. It is important that | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
the debate we are having here is also being held in other capital | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
cities as well because the collective effort is what we need to | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
effect change in what is going on in the country of Syria. Everybody is | :03:58. | :04:09. | |
focusing on Russia, but you also mentioned the Iranian influence. | :04:10. | :04:18. | |
What is the UK Government doing to stop Iran's influence on this | :04:19. | :04:25. | |
humanitarian disaster? Prior... There is a coincidence and attempts | :04:26. | :04:35. | |
-- in a sense... There is a much greater dialogue with Iran to be | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
able to discuss these issues. I spoke to the Iranian ambassador on | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
Friday, covering a wide variety of issues. It is important that Iran is | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
aware that other one to take on a more responsible role in the | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
international community it has proxy relationships or interests in the | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
region itself, then it must advance the way it does business and this is | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
a great example. Iran could show the leadership that we are missing at | :05:05. | :05:14. | |
the moment from Russia. What conversations has the UK Government | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
had with the US President-elect? What consequences does he believe it | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
holds for British policy going forward if we have to act ordered | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
unilateral terms given the US President-elect's current policy? We | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
are looking forward to the confirmation of the President | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
elect's nomination for Secretary of State. When that is me and I am sure | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
that we will be engaging to ensure or encourage America to be as | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
involved and as committed to not just this issue in Syria but other | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
challenges that we face in the Middle East. The Minister has | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
mentioned the difficulties in dealing with Russia. He has not | :06:03. | :06:09. | |
answered the question that my honourable friend Post earlier on, | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
taken place with Russia to demand taken place with Russia to demand | :06:18. | :06:18. | |
that they sign up to the agreement brokered by the UN to provide hate | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
and what more can be done to get the talks back on track? This is raised | :06:25. | :06:32. | |
on a regular basis. It was raised by the Foreign Secretary with Sergei | :06:33. | :06:36. | |
Lavrov only last week. It is pivotal that Russia can play this role in | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
turning the situation around and allowing humanitarian aid and a line | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
pass as a nation of hostilities, at least a 10-day ceasefire, underlying | :06:47. | :06:52. | |
political discussions to recommence. Point of order. On a point of order, | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
you may be aware that over the weekend it was revealed that | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
thousands of families with disabled children, including inmate on | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
constituency, have lost out up to ?4400 a year in tax credits after an | :07:08. | :07:14. | |
administrative error. This is as a result of the DWP failing to inform | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
HMRC about family's eligibility for the awards and has resulted in an | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
estimated 20,000 families were children who have qualified for DLA | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
missing out on an additional tax credit premium of between ?60 and | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
?84 a week. In the Autumn Statement, the government set aside ?360 | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
million over six years to ensure these families who are eligible for | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
a child disability tax credits to be awarded this money, however the | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
payments will be backdated only until April 2016 meaning individual | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
families may have lost out on the entitlement totalling up to ?25,000 | :07:56. | :08:01. | |
over the past five years. Can I ask if you have had any indication from | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
the Work and Pensions Secretary or any other minister that they will | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
come to this House and make a statement which can clarify the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
impact on our constituents and, if not, could you give us any other | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
guidance on how we might raise this issue in the size and scrutinise | :08:15. | :08:17. | |
ministers on it at the earliest opportunity? | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
I'm very grateful for her courtesy in offering me the advantages of it | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
but the short answer to the enquiry toward the end the point of order as | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
to whether I have received any indication of a likely ministerial | :08:33. | :08:34. | |
statement on the matter is now. However more widely the lady has | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
sought my advice and I'm very happy to try to oblige. There is, I | :08:42. | :08:47. | |
believe, a range of options open to her. The moral, of course, we have a | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
Treasury oral questions if honourable members wish to raise | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
these matters with the minister responsible for the H M R C. There | :08:57. | :09:04. | |
will be a lot of colleagues looking to do precisely that. Including no | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
less all got a figure than the honourable lady herself. It is | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
English and to the next work and pensions questions that it is | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
regrettable but a fact that there will be opportunities to seek | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
debates in Westminster Hall on this matter or alternatively end of day | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
adjournment debates in the chamber in December. A matter in which, as | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
the honourable lady knows, I take 18 and ongoing interest. Alternatively | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
do that, the honourable lady may wish to gather support for a bid to | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
the back bench and business committee with who's Jesse will be | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
well for nausea. I have no doubt that the honourable lady -- chair. | :09:52. | :10:00. | |
Will take the 11 if not more than one of these options with the | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
vigour. I hope this applies not just to the honourable lady but two other | :10:05. | :10:07. | |
members who feel very strongly about this matter. If there are no further | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
point of order, we now on to the programme motion, the minister to | :10:14. | :10:22. | |
move. Move formerly. Thank you. The question is the Digital economy Bill | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
programme number three notion. As on the order paper. As many as are of | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes | :10:33. | :10:40. | |
have it. The ayes have it. We will now read the orders of the day. | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
Economy Bill as amended to be considered. Thank you. Order. We | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
begin with Government clause 28 with which it will be convenient to | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
consider the other due causes and amendments grouped together on the | :10:58. | :11:05. | |
selection paper. Two movie, I call the Minister. Prime Minister | :11:06. | :11:13. | |
Hancock. Very much. -- Minister Matt Hancock. I wanted to keep people | :11:14. | :11:22. | |
safe online. The amendment in this third route proposed to strengthen | :11:23. | :11:25. | |
the enforcement of protection for children to improve access to online | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
media and address consumer protection in telecoms. I'm going to | :11:30. | :11:33. | |
take these three groups in turn, if I may. Subgroups of your excellent | :11:34. | :11:40. | |
groups. Turning first to child protection. I and alighted at the | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
cross-party support to deliver the Conservative manifesto commitment | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
about age verification to access online pornography. It has been the | :11:52. | :11:57. | |
lead so powerfully by my honourable friend for devices ably supported by | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
my honourable friend from North West Hampshire that the enforcement | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
proposed in the bill was not strong enough and my honourable friend is | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
right. We have listened to the case that she and others have booed. They | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
have advanced the argument that there will be some companies, | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
especially based overseas, we simply do not apply in the law enacted in | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
this house. It is clear that there is a case to direct a UK service | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
provider to prevent access. We all want the Internet to be free but | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
freedom operates within a framework of social responsibility, of norms | :12:36. | :12:42. | |
and the wall. -- law. This will protect the freedom of adults to | :12:43. | :12:48. | |
watch pornography online but protect children from the same safeguards | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
online as they have off-line. -- with the same safeguards. I hope | :12:55. | :12:57. | |
they will take a responsible position and the regulator will only | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
have to use this sparingly as the bass majority of companies will want | :13:03. | :13:08. | |
to obey the law. -- the majority. The regulator is expected to be BBFC | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
to make this new system work as the look to take these proposals through | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
the other place. We have been persuaded of another argument made | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
powerfully, at second reading. The provisions be discussed today will | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
see children protected by one of the most robust and sophisticated | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
regimes blithely but, as my honourable friend for Paul Watson | :13:31. | :13:33. | |
has said, and I see her place, supported by my honourable friend | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
for St Ives, these protections have resulted in a disparity between | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
UK-based OnDemand services and indices they OnDemand services and | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
commercial providers of pornography on the other. We have concluded that | :13:50. | :13:59. | |
we do not want these, clause 29 ensures children are protected by | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
pornographic content wherever it is derived. I believe we will have a | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
stronger system as a result. I turned to new clause three which | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
proposes a legal requirement to undertake an online safety impact | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
assessment. I understand the intent of this new clause but I think it is | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
unnecessary because leading social media companies already report on | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
their online safety practices of the ICT coalition. We work very closely | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
with them to ensure that they take down content that is violent or | :14:38. | :14:40. | |
incite violence, and to fight terrorist related content. The | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
system is very important and is working well. Since 2010, we have | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
secured involuntary removal of over 220,000 pieces of content and a | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
requirement for a safety assessment is likely to be difficult to apply | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
in practice because of the extraterritorial organisations that | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
are involved in this space and it would be almost impossible to target | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
individual from the small, online website for commercial purposes. Of | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
course. I'm very grateful to the Minister for giving way and I am | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
very grateful that he had agreed to an end rebuilt in this important | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
area. I just wonder when he is addressing this issue have a | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
responsibility of social media sites, what action he is thinking of | :15:25. | :15:30. | |
taking to prevent what happened recently when Facebook refused to | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
give to the police information that they had relating to a missing | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
child. Well, God, making sure the premise that operates in that sort | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
of space as the terrorist material and child rejection online -- of | :15:47. | :15:54. | |
course. It's incredibly important to get right. That protection. The | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
non-statutory system that we have in place, essentially non-statutory. | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
That is to fit defenders both off-line and online, that works | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
well. Collaboration with the police and others of the social media | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
organisations is incredibly important and I would urge them to | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
collaborate with the police whenever they are asked to do so. We have | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
taken the view that effective and rigorous enforcement of rules around | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
age verification is an important step to get the system up and | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
running but for a system that is working well, with 220,000 | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
take-downs since 2010, we want to leave that in place because it is, | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
on the whole, working effectively. In a lot of these instances, there | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
are individual cases that are difficult but, overall, that system | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
is working well and that is why you're the different approaches to | :16:53. | :17:00. | |
the different areas. If I now turn to new clause ten. This makes some | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
certificate requirements about online education. I maintain that | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
this is not necessary as safety is already covered in the new computer | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
and regular introduced in December 2014 from primary school, children | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
are taught how to use technology safely, respectfully and | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
responsibly. How to keep personal information private, how to | :17:23. | :17:24. | |
recognise exceptional and unacceptable in Bolivia -- | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. We can protect children | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
online through both direct rules for the Internet and education but this | :17:36. | :17:37. | |
new clause is not necessary and I wonder that, by putting a static | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
system in place, it would risk making the task at hand harder. When | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
it comes to that border protection, we expect social media and | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
interactive services to our robust services in place quickly to address | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
inappropriate content and abusive behaviour in their sights. A | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
statutory code of practice, as proposed a new clause 13 is | :18:00. | :18:03. | |
difficult to work because there is not a one size fits all solution for | :18:04. | :18:14. | |
dealing with content and varies. It can vary by platform and buy | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
innovation as the Internet operates. Legislation in this area is hard | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
because of the pace of change. Users will benefit most companies develop | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
their own business approach for reporting tool and in-house | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
processes. Existing arrangements and the action being taken by social | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
media companies is the best approach to tackling this problem. Of course. | :18:34. | :18:40. | |
Thank you to the Minister for giving way. Judy tell us which companies | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
and which sectors do already have a code of practice in place and how he | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
is monitoring how those codes of practice are being brought up to | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
date? We are working with parents of practice in a series of different | :18:54. | :19:03. | |
areas. She will have seen recently -- codes. Twitter has brought | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
forward a work towards an online code of practice in online use. | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
There is more to do anything, I think, but it is better to have | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
codes of practice that associations by India batting change with the | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
times as usage of social media changes. By goodness, we all know | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
how social media changes over time and not always in a good way. We | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
have to make sure we keep pace with that and I worry that reading | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
something more static into legislation will get in the way of | :19:39. | :19:45. | |
those efforts. I... I agree with my right honourable friend is that it | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
is incumbent on social media companies to play their part in | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
establishing and rigorous three in forcing norms and social rules where | :19:53. | :20:02. | |
we do not take a legislative view or not yet anyway. -- rigorously. Of | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
course. I understand buying in from social media battle providers. I | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
understand that. Getting out a position where, in response to the | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
query from his honourable friend, it appears, and I may have | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
misunderstood, that there is no code of practice going on at the moment. | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
Things are being developed. I misunderstood because I thought he | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
said codes of practice are working well and in place. Regarding the | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
change of circumstances, he is right but under new clause 13, some fall. | :20:37. | :20:42. | |
It says that the code of practice may be revived. That is the | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
flexibility he prays in aid of. It is in the new cause. Can I just | :20:48. | :20:53. | |
declare? When I said there were codes of practice, I was talking | :20:54. | :20:56. | |
about the take-down of terrorist material and child abuse. Online. | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
There are clear code of practice that have been in place for a number | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
of years. In terms of social views online, that is where we are looking | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
with the companies in order to make further rest in this area. Yes, of | :21:10. | :21:18. | |
course. Can I thank him for giving way, he has been very generous. The | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
computer curriculum which, I assume, serves only to England -- refers. | :21:24. | :21:32. | |
Can I have what he has known in relation to that? Of course, the | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
Government have had significant discussions over time with the | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
devolved nations on these questions. Of course, they treat the question | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
differently. There is a difference of them in Scotland and Wales, and | :21:46. | :21:51. | |
of course in Northern Ireland. It is a matter for them. He is quite right | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
that the concluding curriculum response was a matter for England | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
whereas most of the rest of the bill is a UK matter, so I am very happy | :22:01. | :22:05. | |
to clear that up. The public Belgium 80, previously considered new clause | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
32, every move onto that. That was fully regulated to approve age | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
verification providers and publish a code of practice with which these | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
providers must comply. As I said in Trinity, I then think this cause is | :22:19. | :22:25. | |
necessary because clause 15 requires guidance to be published in gems of | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
the type of arrangement it will say are intertwined with the bill. This | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
includes characteristics of age verification, control that will be | :22:35. | :22:36. | |
considered acceptable and a number of different proposals for technical | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
food and is for the age verification and controls have been brought | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
forward Julie and made, I have been made aware of them during the | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
passage of this bill. The clause 15 already takes into account the need | :22:53. | :22:53. | |
for guidance in that area. Age verification of this sort is | :22:54. | :23:05. | |
inevitably going to require a lot of information holding by the companies | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
concerned. What assurances can give the house that that data will not be | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
liable to be hacked, like it was in the Ashley Madison case? This is | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
incredibly important. We will come onto some of the data protection | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
clauses later in the bill, but all of this operates within the Data | :23:24. | :23:30. | |
Protection Act, which as strong and strengthening safeguards. The | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
government has said that we will opt into the forthcoming directive, | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
which has stronger enforcement measures than the current Data | :23:37. | :23:43. | |
Protection Act. All of the data measures in the sacked and all of | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
the consequences of the age verification process will be within | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
the Data Protection Act, which has a broad consensus of support behind it | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
and has operated very successfully over a number of years. That means | :23:58. | :24:01. | |
that the companies are responsible for the security of its data. Will | :24:02. | :24:10. | |
it be the case that the data will be held in a way that is anonymous, | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
that will not allow the people who have given the data to be identified | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
should be stolen? The best security in the world can still be breached. | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
It will be held in such a way that it is required to be secure and the | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
data not made available. That is a common principle across a huge | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
swathe of our life, that data must be held in a safe way. The Data | :24:40. | :24:45. | |
Protection Act is already in place in order to ensure that that's | :24:46. | :24:52. | |
happens. Coming back to new clause 32, requiring the regulator to | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
approve providers is likely to be unnecessarily restrictive. But of | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
course I understand the need to make sure that the age of the location | :25:02. | :25:07. | |
process is of high quality. These measures are part of a broader | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
effort to protect children online. For instance, parental control | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
filters are a very important tool in protecting children from harmful | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
online material and have been introduced by industry after the | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
efforts of my honourable friend in the last parliament. In committee we | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
discussed the concerns that the EU net neutrality regulations would | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
range of these controls, which have worked well, illegal. I am clear | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
that our interpretation of the EU net neutrality is that filters can | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
be allowed when they can be turned off as fair by then a matter of | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
future choice. I am happy to confirm to the highest for the avoidance of | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
doubt we will bring forward an amendment in the other place to the | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
effect that providers may offer these filters to put this issue | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
beyond doubt. Turning to amendments 27 to 34. The introduction of the | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
new law requiring appropriate age verification measures for online | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
pornography is a bold step and that has many challenges. It represents | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
the first age of ensuring commercial providers of pornographic material | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
are held responsible for what they provide profit from. The Internet | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
brings incredible and unlimited opportunities it also has the | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
potential to change the way younger generations grow to understand and | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
experience healthy relationships. Delivering on this manifesto | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
commitment to stop children and young people having access to online | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
pornographic sites remains a priority. We want to get this right | :26:43. | :26:46. | |
and the provisions in this built in a bolus to do that. Measures will | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
protect children from exposure to material that is clearly | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
inappropriate for them and would be harmful for the development. | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
Pornography is not the only online content that may be harmful for | :27:00. | :27:08. | |
children. The inclusion of other adult material within the scope of | :27:09. | :27:13. | |
the bill as proposed by Amendment 27 minute bid the most effective way of | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
addressing these issues. Most importantly, we need to be careful | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
in taking a proportionate approach to ensure the success of the | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
proposed measures. I can assure my right honourable friend that we will | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
continue to work to make sure that we are taking all of the necessary | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
action on all fronts where children are at risk from harm and I look | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
forward to continuing the discussions with her and others, but | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
our approach I believe represents a targeted and effective way of | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
protecting children from stumbling across pornographic material that is | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
most readily material and potentially harmful and fulfils our | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
manifesto commitment. He will be aware that one of the means by which | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
young people are now accessing pornography more and more is through | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
social media and sites like Twitter. Can he say how his age verification | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
requirements will apply to twitter? The age verification requirements | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
apply to the commercial provision of mammography. Pornography is not only | :28:19. | :28:26. | |
paid for, but is also provided for a commercial return. There is a | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
difference between websites that provide commercial pornography and | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
platforms on which others can upload images. Getting this right one that | :28:35. | :28:41. | |
second group is much harder than around the first Group. What we have | :28:42. | :28:51. | |
decided to do under proposing to do is to put forward this bill to deal | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
with the large swathe of the problem and get this working properly, and | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
to deal with this, the mainstay of the problem, and then see how it is | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
working. I appreciate that for those who really want to access pawn | :29:11. | :29:18. | |
online, then if the are really intent on doing that, then there is | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
a big challenge and stopping them. All of the evidence suggests that | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
children's first interaction of them is by accident and it is by trying | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
to prevent as much of that inadvertent viewing and the viewing | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
for those who are not desperately actively seeking that we are | :29:39. | :29:46. | |
legislating. I appreciate that this is not a utopia, but it is a very | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
important step and he I hope you will accept that. Isn't it fair to | :29:53. | :30:00. | |
say that four years ago providers like twitter talk us that it was | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
impossible to take time visual images of children being sexually | :30:05. | :30:07. | |
abused, but now he says quite rightly there is a code of practice | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
in place, surely where there is a will there is a way and he has | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
proved that he can make significant progress. Should he not be putting | :30:16. | :30:36. | |
more pressure on organisations like twitter? The short answer is yes. | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
This bill certainly does that. I think we can only do that... That we | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
can best do that by delivering on the proposals here and then working | :30:44. | :30:45. | |
with the platforms where it is essentially platform based | :30:46. | :30:46. | |
pornography because that is a much more difficult technical nut to | :30:47. | :30:53. | |
crack. He has spent more time in the last few weeks thinking about | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
children and pornography than amateur he would want to. This bill | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
deals with the publication of pornography. One of the things that | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
we need to do is help children be more resilient and understand that | :31:08. | :31:15. | |
these images are not normal sexual behaviour, they are of the kind of | :31:16. | :31:22. | |
violence that should not be part of relationships, yet when we look at | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
the research we learned that children, particularly boys, think | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
that this is normal. What discussions has he had with the | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
Department for Education to try to build greater resilience amongst | :31:36. | :31:38. | |
children to some of the images that despite the efforts in this bill, | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
that they will see. I agree with every word of her intervention. Yes, | :31:45. | :31:53. | |
working with the Department for Education is incredibly important in | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
building resilience and actively ensuring that people's health | :31:59. | :32:08. | |
through relationships is taught effectively. The Secretary of State | :32:09. | :32:15. | |
and I have both been in discussion with the Department for Education on | :32:16. | :32:18. | |
that point. She makes an important point on the broader circumstances | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
here that need to be taken into consideration, as well as the | :32:24. | :32:25. | |
clarity through legislation that I hope she welcomes in this amendment. | :32:26. | :32:33. | |
I will move on to mobile phone contract, which seems a bit of a | :32:34. | :32:42. | |
shift. In new clause seven it seeks to place a mandatory obligation on | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
mobile phone service providers to agree with the customer at the time | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
of entering into the contract at financial on the monthly bill. Since | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
this amendment was first to building committee we have had further | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
contact with mobile network operators, and they already offer | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
consumers wait to manage their usage. Apps that allowed them to | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
turn on and financial caps, messages that are lured people when they are | :33:11. | :33:17. | |
getting close to the, and an online tools that show how much data is | :33:18. | :33:24. | |
needed to carry out basic online facilities. Legislation is not | :33:25. | :33:34. | |
currently necessary, although movement in this direction is. | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
Turning to new clause 14, I understand the frustrations of | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
people who use mobile experience does not live up to their | :33:44. | :33:47. | |
expectations, but while roaming appears to offer quick fix, it risks | :33:48. | :33:52. | |
doing more harm than good because it undermines the incentive for the | :33:53. | :33:55. | |
suppliers to invest in new infrastructure. This is particularly | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
damaging in areas that have no coverage at all. Roman was | :34:02. | :34:09. | |
considered by the government in 2014 and was rejected for these reasons | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
in favour of licence conditions to drive increased coverage by all | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
mobile operators. This agreement locked in ?5 billion of investment | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
to deliver improved coverage across the UK. We now have 4G coverage of | :34:24. | :34:29. | |
97.8 UK premises and I can confirm that this is happening because in my | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
own constituency Paymaster has just been turned on last weekend and | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
coverage on the road to Newmarket from my house is better than it has | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
ever been, so I have seen for myself. The house will also have | :34:42. | :34:49. | |
seen recent announcements from mobile providers that they are | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
currently expanding coverage to meet these 90% of land mass requirements, | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
that they must meet now by the legal contract and the license agreements. | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
This bill strengthens the fines if they miss those license agreements. | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
Of course we want further improvements. Last week, new | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
planning laws came into force that allowed tall masts and we are | :35:14. | :35:20. | |
informing the electronic code in this bill to allow operators to | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
extend the neck what's making mast sharing easier and cheaper. These | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
reforms have been quite vocal about the industry and off, will hold them | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
to account for the delivery of wider geographic coverage. New clause is | :35:33. | :35:37. | |
20 and 25 seats to place mandatory obligations on mobile phone service | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
providers to allow and end-user determine at -- to allow the | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
end-user to terminate the contract if they can't get coverage. The | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
automatic compensation measure in clause three strengthens of compost | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
by powers to require automatic compensation when there is a | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
complete failure to provide a contract of service. The idea of not | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
being able to break your contract if you're mobile phone signal is not | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
good enough at home I think is already dealt with in the fact that | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
contracts purchased at distance can be cancelled under a statutory 14 | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
day cooling off period and in the shop purchases often a check of your | :36:20. | :36:26. | |
coverage cooling off period for two weeks after sign up. Some also offer | :36:27. | :36:32. | |
extended periods to ensure that service meets the needs of the | :36:33. | :36:34. | |
option of conservation without I wonder wonder if my right | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
honourable friend would accept that this must be the only product around | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
that you can buy that you could end up not being able to use. People | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
don't just moved house in the first 14 days of contract. Will he look | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
again at this? The primary way that I want to tackle this problem is by | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
getting universal mobile phone coverage of UK properties. We are on | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
track to get to 98% and back compares to the universal service | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
for broadcasting requires 98.5%, so we are getting to the point where we | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
have near universal service, but that is not necessarily good enough | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
and what I would propose is with the forthcoming Green Paper on consumers | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
and markets to work with my right honourable friend to make sure that | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
in the Green Paper we address the issues of concern and make sure that | :37:33. | :37:38. | |
consumers get a good deal from the mobile phone contracts and that the | :37:39. | :37:40. | |
mobile phone contracts will work. I hear all statistic, what coverage | :37:41. | :37:49. | |
is meant to be here, there and everywhere but they never seem to | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
match the reality on the ground or in the living room, or any shop. | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
Nearly the whole of the town I live in, three Main St, you can get | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
absolutely no mobile coverage from any of the companies. It does not | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
matter whether one of them is not providing a good enough service, it | :38:09. | :38:11. | |
is any of them. No doubt he will share with DVD frustration that when | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
mobile phone -- the deep frustration that when 3G licenses game, there | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
was no geographic requirements. That is a serious mistake for this | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
country. We have since engineered into the license agreement mobile | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
phone geography coverage of 90%. The geography that is being covered is | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
rising rapidly at the moment. For instance, with one provider, it was | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
50% last year and is 75% this year. They have to get to 90%. It is | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
increasing. It is a pity that, from the 3G license in the early 2000 or | :38:52. | :38:58. | |
lack up until 2014, there is no requirement. -- 2000s. Author, has | :38:59. | :39:09. | |
now said that they are in discussions about getting to a | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
universal 100% coverage in the next licence period. -- Ofcom. I think | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
the minister was trying to make a point there but all I'm trying to | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
say is even with the changes of the elder chronic remediation to that | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
are in this bill, I don't think we will be able to achieve that 98 100% | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
because it is still too easy for an individual land holder to make it | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
difficult for significant improvements to the infrastructure | :39:39. | :39:40. | |
in that area actually, surely we should be seeing as much access to | :39:41. | :39:49. | |
mobile telephony now as water. I'm not making a partisan point at all | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
and acted during Ed balls on on Saturday night, I feel as an | :39:55. | :40:05. | |
partisan as I ever have. -- un Partisan. I extend my condolences. I | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
am speaking about coverage of mobile phones in the UK. My coverage is | :40:13. | :40:19. | |
more rural than his if I may say is a real problem in constituencies up | :40:20. | :40:29. | |
and down the country. I look forward to my campaigning visit to the short | :40:30. | :40:36. | |
the marginal seat of Rhondda. Thank you very much. Yes. Grateful to my | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
honourable friend. I, too, was pleased to hear Ofcom say they are | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
looking at a universal service obligation for 3G and 4G signals. | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
Statistics have been covered but the local topography means the signal | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
does not reach the aims and leading visit my constituency where people | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
are suffering. Well, I have news him because the next month, Ofcom will | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
be publishing data at a premise level for those fixed line broadband | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
and mobile phone coverage at each premise and, if the coverage is | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
different to what Ofcom say, they have a mechanism where you can feed | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
back to get a proper map of where they get coverage of both fixed line | :41:26. | :41:28. | |
and mobile, and I would fall quality that's coming out enormously. I'm | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
sure the select committee will investigate the data with great | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
aplomb. Of course. I'm very grateful to my honourable friend forgiving | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
way. Could I ask him to ensure that proper discussion takes place with | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
DCMG to make sure the most liberal planning regime for phone that is in | :41:50. | :41:57. | |
place to make sure they get a basic technological funds. Yes, we changed | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
the law and the new rules came into place last week. Nobody prayed again | :42:01. | :42:09. | |
either. There is unanimous support. If he wants to work with me on what | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
further steps might be needed, to improve that applying regime | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
further, then I am all ears. Of course. Generous. On his premises by | :42:20. | :42:27. | |
premises survey which she refers, can I caution him and pressing a | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
little whiny methodology? I live in a dense urban area. It is nominally | :42:32. | :42:37. | |
4G. I check my phone periodically and sometimes it is 3G. Sometimes it | :42:38. | :42:51. | |
is 4G. I gave a 4G, which is the future, but I can get it all the | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
time. Well, I would say that 5G is the future. On the substance of his | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
point, without this turning into a seminar on mobile connectivity, as | :43:01. | :43:07. | |
more people use data over a particular mast, then I think the | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
industry has a wonderful phrase that this phenomenon, which they say the | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
coverage reasons. That is to say it comes in and goes out as other | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
people use the data. -- the coverage breathes. It may be different. This | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
has to be taken into account and the best people do this and analysis are | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
Ofcom. They are doing. It is best to have this debate once they publicly | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
driven by Brendan Baker. Of course. I am do my honourable friend for his | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
incorporation of the Green paper about some of the issues raised by | :43:44. | :43:52. | |
the new clauses. No one will believe the figure that almost 90% of UK | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
premises are covered. It does not stack up with reality or with rigid | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
infrastructure MP 's findings. I want to make sure that you doesn't | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
want to believe this nonsense. I'm looking forward to seeing the data | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
for that reason. Covering a rural constituency, I can drive for ten | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
minutes without getting a signal at all, including Bath houses. That is | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
probably the same from many of us. -- past houses. That is why it is | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
good to judge whether these figures I write and I am with him. Our job | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
in this house is to hold people to account to deliver great geographic | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
coverage, whether in Rhondda or in Llewellyn or in Suffolk. Or indeed | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
in Buckinghamshire. I will give away one last time on this section. I | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
thank the Minister for giving way and I just want to make what is a | :44:48. | :44:52. | |
quick and constructive point. I encourage all members to make | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
constituents downwardly Ofcom at which is designed to gather data so | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
we are better informed. -- app. Please publicise this in your | :45:04. | :45:09. | |
constituency. Quite fair and, as he may say, I'm not sure that is | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
entirely a matter for this bill but he has made his point. New clauses | :45:14. | :45:29. | |
21, 22 and 27 from Plaid and the SNP are not necessary because they have | :45:30. | :45:31. | |
set at the position. On new clause 21, it is already a requirement that | :45:32. | :45:39. | |
these sites must be made available to all the network operators. On 22, | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
of, already has the power to do so. -- Ofcom. On new clause 27, we | :45:47. | :45:54. | |
already have a USO in this get high speed broadband in any premise. That | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
is the goal we share. On 26, the commentator is your interference to | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
assisted listening devices very seriously and, where necessary, will | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
work with the actor Jake appropriate action to where interference has | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
been notified. I met with the national deaf Children's Society and | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
I can tell the house that further testing will commence next month and | :46:19. | :46:23. | |
Ofcom will publish their findings by April 20 17th and I hope you're | :46:24. | :46:25. | |
making some progress on that important matter. I will. I'm | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
grateful. Just on that, I'm encouraged by what the Minister is | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
saying but there is a particular issue for deaf children where | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
interference from the spectrum can have a very bad effect on their | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
education. We pay attention to children in schools. Of course I | :46:48. | :46:54. | |
will. -- will you? I have discussed that and I will continue to work on | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
it. Turning finally to Government Amendment 23 and 24, these are | :47:01. | :47:04. | |
technical amendments about the installation of electronically | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
negations apparatus on tidal land owned by the Crown. I would | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
recommend to the house that they are the gel and technical, and that they | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
should support them. -- detailed. I beg to move the amendments and I | :47:21. | :47:26. | |
hope, following these extra nations, the new clauses that we table the | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
commitments I've given, that honourable members would withdraw | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
theirs. Thank you. Age and location regulators power to direct Internet | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
service providers to block access to material. Order. The question is | :47:41. | :47:48. | |
that new clause 28 B read a second time? Thank you very much. I move to | :47:49. | :48:01. | |
clause 27, which stand in the name of my honourable friend. And to | :48:02. | :48:04. | |
discuss the new clause of much of the Minister has just outlines to | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
the house and to new clause one, which is part of this group as the | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
Minister has mentioned. I also make reference to some of the other | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
amendments in this group. We made it clear in committee that we could not | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
see how age verification could operate without power to block | :48:24. | :48:31. | |
sites. That failed to comply, as did the honourable lady. The Minister | :48:32. | :48:37. | |
resisted that very strongly and I quote, he says that the powers are | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
not a silver bullet, sites are actively trying to avoid the bill | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
and they could actively avoid these measures. It is questionable how | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
much additional enforcement power they would bring in giving nose and | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
down the sites. He went on to say that the bill has ended up with the | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
correct balance. That is what he said in committee. Clearly, the | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
secretary of state disagreed with him on that and she has now | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
overruled her junior minister by tabling new clauses 28 and 29 in her | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
name. As they can see on the order paper and in the event and will. The | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
new clauses tabled by the Secretary of State who is now no longer in | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
place, represent very significant changes at quite a late common stage | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
to the bill concerning our contention that the bill, as | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
published, was not ready to leave home when it was allowed to do so. | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
Without age verification by the Minister. I will give way. Grateful. | :49:38. | :49:44. | |
As he knows from his ministerial experience, it is the job of junior | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
middle ranking ministers to do all the work and secretaries of state to | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
take all the credit. In this case, I can assure him that the ears of all | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
the Government front bench with opens to the changes he and I wanted | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
to make. I am very grateful for that intervention and all I can say is | :50:02. | :50:08. | |
that the secretary of state, I will just get to the credit as he is a | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
lesson that I should for this change. -- give her the credit. The | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
new clauses are very significant changes at this late stage of the | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
bill. There have been concerns raised about them as we can support | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
them. They're been concerns in the rest of the amendments go well | :50:26. | :50:27. | |
beyond a backstop power, potentially, to block sites to under | :50:28. | :50:34. | |
18 and a cute in fact used to extend Internet censorship -- they cooed. | :50:35. | :50:41. | |
We need to be clear as to whether that is the intention through these | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
news clauses? I will give way on that point. I have also seen those | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
reports and I think the reports misread the bill. It is not our | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
intention or understanding of the working of the amendments. I think | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
it's very helpful to have that on the wreckage. Note that the part of | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
the bill will be poured over and I was bloody gel when they arrive in | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
the other place but given time dimer time constraint is a. We do not have | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
the time to pour over these proposals and had been building | :51:18. | :51:19. | |
ready, we would have. Notwithstanding article for | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
blocking, I think there is a lot more scrutiny will be required when | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
there is more time available in the other place when they come to | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
discuss these Government new clauses on the assumption that the house | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
passes them tonight. We have argued repeatedly that the bill to repair | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
the UK -- prepare the UK for the challenges. Digital resilience of | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
the key part of the bell and the opportunities can't be exploited in | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
the Digital economy unless they feel safe and secure online. That is | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
nowhere more important and clear and any case of other children. Children | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
are growing up today in a midst of information revolution that even a | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
decade ago, was an unimaginable thing with an astonishing range of | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
information and today's children are taking in an astonishing five times | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
more information on any generation which are in need not so distant | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
1990s. Far from tabloid stories about a distracted generation, there | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
is growing up today are, in some ways, an positive on the most | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
involved generation in history but, of course, Mr Ziegler, knowledge is | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
not understanding. -- Mr Speaker. Wisdom comes from experience. The | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
challenges of this revolution cannot be ignored and the challenges across | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
the country that parents worry about everything all day. They are worried | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
they may not know what their children are being subjected to | :52:50. | :52:52. | |
online, whether bullying are coming across inappropriate images and as | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
their children come to know much more about the online world and | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
Nadine, parents feel they may not be best placed to stop it. In our view, | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
new clause ten, which we have tabled, would help of all to face up | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
to that challenge. Our new clause will amend that to teach secondary | :53:12. | :53:19. | |
school pupils in an age appropriate way and with the usual safeguards | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
which applied to that act about the dangers of the online world and how | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
to keep yourself safe. With digital devices more widespread among | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
children than ever before, with five - 15-year-olds spending an average | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
of 24 hours online every week, having no clear indication to sit | :53:40. | :53:45. | |
alongside the blood instruments, and it is a blunt instrument of age | :53:46. | :53:48. | |
verification contained within the bill, it feels to us like that is an | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
important missing part of the bill. Age verification in the Digital | :53:52. | :54:02. | |
Economy Bill to stop children seeing harmful content is welcome but as | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
the minister hinted himself, it is not the whole answer. You can build | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
a swimming pool, fill it with water, build a fence around it, and put up | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
a sign saying swimming is dangerous, but the most important thing is to | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
teach your children how to swim. If we solely rely on age verification | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
as the main way that we are going to tackle this problem, then it will be | :54:28. | :54:35. | |
inadequate. Age verification cannot teach children about healthy | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
relationships. It cannot help them to navigate the expectations placed | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
on them and reinforce online. That can only be done through well | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
devised and well taught sex and relationship education which | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
incorporate conversations about online pornography. So that children | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
can question what they see online in a safe environment. A recent NSPCC | :55:00. | :55:05. | |
report on pornography online and the under 18 's was troubling. They | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
founded a poor model for consent for practising safe sex and could | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
distort the image of a sexual relationship. But the government | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
have so far refused to consider statutory online sexual education | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
and the government's keeping children safe strategy dedicated | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
three paragraphs to the online world. Taken in tandem with this | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
Digital Economy Bill, which does not give a single mention of online | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
abuse or online education, it seems that ministers are ducking the | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
challenge or not able to comprehend it. We have always known that | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
education matters in this area. When we were in government, we expanded | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
and updated sexual education and commissioned the Tanya Byron Review | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
these lessons were abandoned largely, after 2010. That is why, in | :55:59. | :56:04. | |
the Digital Economy Bill, we want to take steps to devote -- towards | :56:05. | :56:12. | |
developing education for the online generation. We wanted to develop | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
beyond sex education to the entire online world. So that children can | :56:17. | :56:25. | |
make safe and informed decisions. With an 800% increase in children | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
contacting the NSPCC about online abuse, it is clear this is a real | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
problem for today's schoolchildren. They need more support, more advice, | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
some won't return to. Statutory online education would work in | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
tandem with educators to prevent online abuse. I will give way. Thank | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
you for giving way to the Shadow Minister. I am attracted to what he | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
has within his amendment because I, like him, feel that more needs to be | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
done to educate children in this area. But I am concerned that it is | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
talking about Internet pornography in isolation and could potentially | :57:09. | :57:11. | |
not really address the problem is that he is trying to address in his | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
remarks which are far broader than Internet pornography. I would | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
welcome her support for a wider amendment, a wider change in | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
government policy in this area. Because I believe it is a problem. | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
We are having to draw our amendment today within the scope of this | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
particular bill. In committee, we were unable to get an amendment in | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
scope and I'm grateful we could get one in scope today but within the | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
confines of this particular bill. She makes a very good point. I give | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
way. I would entirely support my honourable friend in this because | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
his experience will be similar to mine, in going round schools and one | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
of the things that bedevils teachers is mobile phone, online bullying, | :58:01. | :58:04. | |
sex sting and teachers don't have the training to deal with that and | :58:05. | :58:12. | |
they are with the best of intentions sometimes fumbling. And having this | :58:13. | :58:19. | |
structured into the curricula would help every secondary schoolteacher | :58:20. | :58:21. | |
even if they were not themselves teaching it? I think my honourable | :58:22. | :58:27. | |
friend makes a valuable point and as a former teacher from the analogue | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
age, there are no doubt many teachers who would have started | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
their careers around the same time as me who would fall into that | :58:37. | :58:39. | |
category that he is telling us about. Statutory online education | :58:40. | :58:47. | |
could work in tandem but protecting our children is a major challenge. | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
It can't happen without education. That is why I'm disappointed that | :58:53. | :58:56. | |
the minister did not support our close today. It seems to be the | :58:57. | :58:59. | |
other side of what the government is trying to do through age | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
reification. We completely contended that this is necessary and we will | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
divide the House if we have to on this particular point. I also rise | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
to support our new clause 30 two. It would oblige the age -- numeric 32. | :59:15. | :59:31. | |
It would oblige providers to ensure that Berwick.... It would force them | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
to perform an array of other duties as well. This would address some of | :59:37. | :59:41. | |
the concerned about the practicality that we have heard about age | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
verification checks and that only minimal data are required and kept | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
secure that individual's privacy and liberty is protected. We were not | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
reassured by the Minister's comments at committee stage and not by his | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
comments today just by saying that age verification software is | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
improving, is enough. We should be able to guarantee the privacy of the | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
individual before the verification tool comes into force. We are not | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
asking anything unreasonable of the regulator or of the age verification | :00:17. | :00:23. | |
providers. The principles of privacy, anonymity and | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
proportionality should underpin the age verification tool. As far as I | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
am aware, they have not featured in any draft guidance, codes of | :00:32. | :00:34. | |
guidance or documents accompanying this bill so far. If anyone thinks | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
I'm being partisan, the information Commissioner agrees. His office's | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
response to the Department's consultation on age verification for | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
pornography raise the concern said that any solution implemented must | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
be compliant with the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998 and | :00:58. | :01:06. | |
the privacy and electronic indications directive 2000 that sit | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
alongside. -- electronic communications. They said that | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
privacy by design would seem particularly relevant, designing a | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
system that appropriately protects individual's privacy while achieving | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
stated aims. In fact is, that would mean only collecting the data | :01:30. | :01:36. | |
required, the minimum data. Having established what that was. Data | :01:37. | :01:43. | |
should be restrictively defined and any activities should keep to these | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
restricted purposes. In the context of preventing children from online | :01:48. | :01:58. | |
Inc -- accessing online commercial pornography, any solution considered | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
needs to be focused on proving the existence or absence of the age | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
attribute to the exclusion of other more details information. I will go | :02:08. | :02:14. | |
on much longer if the Minister keeps making gestures at me. To the | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
exclusion of more information. I will give way to the Minister. I'm | :02:22. | :02:28. | |
very grateful to the honourable member for giving way. I would like | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
to clear this point up. Precisely my response to this question when it | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
came up while I was on my feet is that the Data Protection Act that | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
the ICO sites is the legal framework for delivery on this. They further | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
quotes that he read out sets out how that act would operate in this case. | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
So the quota that he reads out proves the point that the required | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
legislation for ensuring protection of data in this case is already in | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
existence in the Data Protection Act and other measures. We will see | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
whether the information Commissioner agrees with that. She made it clear | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
that she would have significant concerns about any method of AJ | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
vocation that requires the collection -- age of revocation that | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
requires the collection of passports or other documents which are | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
vulnerable to miss use or attractive to disreputable third parties. We | :03:35. | :03:38. | |
will see whether she agrees. It seems to me that the Minister gave | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
no real reason why he is not supporting our new clause which | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
would give that reassurance. The risks of creating databases that | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
contain people's names, credit card details, alongside their | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
pornographic preferences, are clear. Our priority is to protect children. | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
Let's be clear about that. That is agreed across the House. But one | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
consequence of the recent hack mentioned earlier on was the number | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
of suicides as the result of that hack. We should proceed with caution | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
before creating any process that will result in the storing of data | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
which could be leaked, hacks all commercialised and would otherwise | :04:26. | :04:26. | |
be completely private and legitimate. -- hacked all | :04:27. | :04:36. | |
commercialised. That is the reason for rejecting anything that would | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
not put duties on the age verification provided to ensure that | :04:42. | :04:49. | |
all data could not be for commercial use. Turning to new clause seven, | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
which also stand in my name, this new clause and would mean that | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
mobile phone service providers must give all consumers the opportunity | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
to put a financial cap on their monthly mobile phone bill and that a | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
mobile phone service cannot be provided until the mobile phone | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
service provider is put on a cap Andy Goode -- agreed amount. The | :05:13. | :05:19. | |
arguments put forward by the Minister were no -- were in no way | :05:20. | :05:28. | |
sufficient. So anybody who looks at their bank balance and find that | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
there is mobile phone bill has come out higher than they are. Builder, | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
located, few of us understand how much data we need. -- bills are | :05:40. | :05:49. | |
congregated. An example reveals the problem. One client changed his | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
shift patterns and started using his mobile phone to watch films. He got | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
a text to say he had gone over his allowance and did not think more | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
about it and got a bill for ?2000 at the end of the month. His service | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
was subsequently cut off. Research suggests that one in five consumers | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
find difficult to keep track of what they spend on data and the average | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
unexpectedly high bill is often double the cost of the monthly fee. | :06:19. | :06:24. | |
Isn't another problem with the unpredictability that in some | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
contracts, you pay for what you receive, what other people send you | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
in text and e-mails and that really isn't under your control at all? She | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
is absolutely right. I think that is why our new clause is so helpful | :06:40. | :06:48. | |
because it means you could, bar anything happening not through your | :06:49. | :06:53. | |
own actions, and Citizens Advice received more than 60,000 enquiries | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
about telephone and broadband debt with its in-depth specialists | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
dealing with 20,000 individual mobile phone debt cases. Consumer | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
support this measure is, more than 70% of them welcome the idea. It is | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
not the first time this proposal has been considered. In 2012, Ofcom | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
considered introducing regulations but could not overcome the | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
objections of providers who argued it would be too costly. In fact, the | :07:24. | :07:28. | |
lack of regulation is what has proved too costly, for struggling | :07:29. | :07:36. | |
consumers. There are mobile phone providers who do provide this now. | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
The government says it wants to help those who are just about managing. | :07:41. | :07:46. | |
If they fail to put in this new clause, it will show they are not | :07:47. | :07:47. | |
serious. Can I strongly support this proposal | :07:48. | :07:56. | |
and this clause? I have had considering contact me specifically | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
on this point. The complexity of the characters and the lack of knowledge | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
of what actually makes art the information of the cast is huge and | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
one consumers. This would be a major step forward for them. I welcome his | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
intervention in support of our proposal for cats on mobile phone | :08:18. | :08:23. | |
bills and so that I don't exceed mine at the moment, I will hang up. | :08:24. | :08:32. | |
-- caps. It is a great pleasure to follow the honourable member the | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
Cardiff West and I share his regret that it is not possible to address | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
in this bill online abuse. I hope the Minister will show the | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
Government was like divination on this issue, which they have | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
regularly on response to other measures. I noted particularly the | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
Minister's response to my intervention on codes of practice | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
is. He is right to say that the industry has been able to move and | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
move very swiftly and very effectively when it comes to issues | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
around terrorism and child abuse. I think issues more broadly on abuse | :09:07. | :09:12. | |
are just as worthy is their attention and I had the clear that | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
the gunmen's priority in this area to make sure the industry really | :09:16. | :09:26. | |
does act to stop -- Government. I think the Minister should get a | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
grade a medal for growing scope to the bill very tightly. Many issues | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
that many of us wouldn't want to draw have not been covered in this | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
but it does not mean they are any less important. I really welcome the | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
Government's new clause 28 and 29 in terms of access and age verification | :09:47. | :09:52. | |
not being robust. I think it does show the intention of the Government | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
and they have really done well to reflect the intentions of my | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
honourable friend. And devising new clause one. I think this does show a | :10:06. | :10:13. | |
will and an action and energy from the governments to try and clean up | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
the intranet said savour the children to use. My amendments, | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
27-34, really are to try and question whether the Government | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
could have gone further in this, albeit I acknowledge that the | :10:30. | :10:37. | |
Government is very much as -- adhering to our vigilance at the | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
general election. We have heard from the minister at length and I | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
listened very carefully, particularly at to his response to | :10:46. | :10:53. | |
my hat amendments and, with his usual wit, he did so. People can be | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
very at odds with this part happy with it. He is very often telling us | :11:01. | :11:07. | |
in the dispatch box about what being illegal off-line is illegal online | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
as well but it is illegal for children under the age of 18 to view | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
adult material, not pornography. Adult material is more broadly | :11:16. | :11:26. | |
known, as he knows, I am certain, it's more broadly drawn than | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
pornography. It is at this very trusted boot on a Dell something | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
makes a difference where their blood money to be a difference made. She | :11:35. | :11:42. | |
says it is illegal for children to view adult material but she will be | :11:43. | :11:45. | |
aware that that amount of adult material broadcast on our national | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
broadcasters after the watershed 10pm and that is not actually | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
illegal for children to watch. It may be undesirable. How do she | :11:53. | :12:06. | |
propose to deal with the DTI player -- BBC iPlayer and other OnDemand | :12:07. | :12:09. | |
systems which broadcast this material? This is true. They can use | :12:10. | :12:18. | |
a notional watershed, albeit it is not clearly not the case then it | :12:19. | :12:24. | |
comes to either player. -- BBC iPlayer. I will, unlike you to my | :12:25. | :12:28. | |
remarks in technology that is really on our side and technology is giving | :12:29. | :12:33. | |
us the sort of opportunity that I think he would welcome to make sure | :12:34. | :12:36. | |
that children are not feeling things which we set out in this place as | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
inappropriate. I just gently urge the Minister, when he looks at my | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
amendments, to think perhaps how he might be able to race in any future. | :12:50. | :12:57. | |
-- embrace them. The law is clear that adult material not just meaning | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
bobble graffiti and I think, in response -- pornography. In response | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
to the Secretary of State, that is the point I am making. Whether it is | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
extreme violence, whether it is beheadings, sadomasochism all of | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
these sort of behaviour will be deemed as being adult related yet, | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
for reasons which I am unclear of, is being excluded from this bill. | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
Perhaps the Minister can just give me a bit more information as to why | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
he has decided to do that and perhaps what encouragement they can | :13:36. | :13:37. | |
give me for the future that those will be dealt with because I | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
actually took the time to talk to some children in my constituency | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
about this, about the things they came across on the Internet and a | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
group of them talked to me about when they have been viewing very | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
age-appropriate material, I think it was actually pictures of small | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
kitchens, they then popped up at the end of its material which frightened | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
them. Frightened them to their core and ease their young children. They | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
were not out looking for it, it just pops up. Of course, they may already | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
have restrictions and parental controls in place that may catch | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
this one surely be Minister has an opportunity to make sure that even | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
organisations like Facebook or YouTube, rather than Facebook, are | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
being more careful than the sort -- about the sort of advertisements | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
being linked to child related dual. I think that is an important point | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
for him to consider further in the context of my amendments. Ofcom has | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
already got a great deal of work in this area and I know that the | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
Minister will be well and truly aware of that. They tell us that it | :14:51. | :14:55. | |
is a significant problem. This year, we are told that one in ten under | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
11th have seen something online which is, "Nasa the offence of | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
green" and we know that two thirds of young people should be more to | :15:06. | :15:11. | |
protect them. -- Natalie, offensive or worrying. The role of the BBFC is | :15:12. | :15:23. | |
to control harmful content from getting to children. We know it | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
happens. We protect them in the seminar. In one of the major | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
uncontrolled environments. -- cinema. In one of the most | :15:33. | :15:40. | |
uncontrolled environments, online, we know it is difficult for them to | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
be controlled. The amendment I'm putting forward would help draw | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
these restrictions and potentially the blocking of websites more | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
broadly if proper age verification procedures were not put in place and | :15:54. | :15:58. | |
I believe the worthy of the governments to consider this | :15:59. | :16:08. | |
further. -- the Government. Looking at common media standards for five | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
years ago, the Minister, in his summing up, can he update the house | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
on the progress being made in this area? Also, perhaps he can explain | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
how the new regulator will balance its narrow responsibilities online | :16:21. | :16:28. | |
to look surly at pornography with the organisation's broader remit | :16:29. | :16:34. | |
offline in terms of looking at adult related material. Organisations like | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
ChildLine, they will deal with the aftermath of young people looking at | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
more broadly defined adult material online. Particularly in videos in | :16:46. | :16:54. | |
terms of extreme torture, violence and particularly upsetting | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
beheadings. Having the full support of the end S PCC, we have... Content | :17:00. | :17:09. | |
which would require an 18 certificate if it was in a film or a | :17:10. | :17:12. | |
video game would also be subjected to a ten verification system. We | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
know the technology now exists. We have the most incredible IT sector | :17:19. | :17:23. | |
in this country and they have already invented ways where they can | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
verify age in an unauthorised way online. Particularly using passport | :17:32. | :17:40. | |
data and biometrics. There are facial recognition apps linked to | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
passports to anonymously make sure that individuals are the age they | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
say they are. These things exist. Parliament does not need to invent | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
them, they are there. Excepting that over 80 materials should be not | :17:54. | :18:04. | |
viewed by children -- over 18. Does not remove freedom of speech because | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
they insist on it off-line. It does add to business. It is a costly | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
except for online businesses, off-line businesses and I believe we | :18:13. | :18:15. | |
should accept it for off-line businesses do. -- online businesses, | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
too. Fundamental rights and freedoms of all this been subject to limits | :18:21. | :18:32. | |
of what is within the law and the laws should apply online the same as | :18:33. | :18:38. | |
they do off-line. People who choose to disobey the law should be subject | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
to the same circumstances as those who do off-line. I just wanted John | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
a couple of other amendments. New clause three, in the name of the | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
honourable lady, is talking about personal accounts, removing an event | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
-- removing anonymity on the Internet. I support these measures | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
but I think it would be just as important for non-commercial sites | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
as commercial sites to adopt a measure like that. I believe this is | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
perhaps a bill for that change to happen. New clause ten, which the | :19:15. | :19:22. | |
honourable gentleman record of Western thought at in the wings in | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
his opening remarks, as I said in my intervention, I have sympathy for | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
the body is making. The truth is, -- the point he is making. There is | :19:34. | :19:45. | |
very outdated -- it is very outdated when you look at sex education. Not | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
updating the Internet but almost. The way in which pornography is | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
driving people's understanding of relationships in a way that none of | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
us feel very comfortable about. I didn't believe this bill, really, is | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
the proper legal for him to achieve the objectives he has set out | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
because I think he may well end up with a distortion in the way people | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
might think we have addressed this issue through his amendment, which | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
we wouldn't have the his amendment simply deals with the issue of | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
online biography when I think he might agree with me, particularly, | :20:20. | :20:28. | |
if he had met my -- read my statement about schools. The | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
improvement of the sex education in schools have to be drawn much more | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
widely than Internet alone. I have even gives me for not supporting | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
this very narrowly drawn amendment today there I understand his | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
response to me that he said he didn't have any choice given nice | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
guy. He is right. I urge the Minister to consider perhaps some | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
stronger undertakings in the words he gave to May and his opening | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
statement about the importance of preventing children from viewing | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
adult material in a broader sense, rather than a more narrow sense that | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
they covenant has chosen to focus on. He does have a personal | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
responsibility hair to children who use the Internet Day in, day out and | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
we need to make sure that they take place. He has done more than any | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
other minister in his place today in making this Internet a safer place | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
for children like mine, like his, but he needs to do more and can he | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
please do more? Can I just say, I have a very high number of members | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
who want to catch these eager's I as we finish at 6:47pm so, can be | :21:39. | :21:42. | |
bought the their remarks very brief and we will get to everyone. Thank | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
you. I will try to comply with your instructions. Could I say, it's a | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
very great pleasure to follow the honourable lady for Basingstoke. She | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
made a very powerful case for her amendments and she has certainly got | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
my support. I do want to, and I will try to, debrief with this. I want to | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
cover a very narrow and esoteric art of the bill. In doing so, because | :22:13. | :22:24. | |
the virgin media company has a working environment in my | :22:25. | :22:26. | |
constituency. A workplace in my constituency which employs 250 | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
people. They have a particular concern which I'm going to take the | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
liberty of connecting to new clause 24 because it's about what happens | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
before new clause 27 sorry. -- new clause 27 sorry. Before that can | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
take place. I am not actually arguing against new clause 27. New | :22:50. | :22:58. | |
course 27 provides for individuals with the option of a voucher scheme | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
that empowers them to take up an alternative solution. It also works | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
on the presumption that there's individuals are likely to choose the | :23:07. | :23:08. | |
standard universal service order offering. | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
I think that is a fair summary of what is involved. But what happens | :23:14. | :23:21. | |
in order for that to be successful? There needs to be coverage to enable | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
people to be able to opt for one or the other. I think there is a real | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
problem which I am not sure that the bill resolves, about some of the | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
obstacles in the way of that actually happening. Virgin media | :23:40. | :23:47. | |
say, their argument is that communication providers showed in | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
effect be treated the same as utility companies when it comes to | :23:52. | :24:00. | |
being granted access writes from property owners to deploy their | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
infrastructure on their land. They talk of broadband as a fourth | :24:06. | :24:09. | |
utility, which generally speaking is the case. But the code reforming the | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
bell is a halfway house. The reforms envisaged mean that water companies | :24:18. | :24:24. | |
would face drawbacks and water companies don't. And thus, high | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
deployment costs. The first drawback is that communication operators have | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
to pay a rent for assessing access to land -- for accessing land. Water | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
companies only have to compensate landowners for loss of value. Water | :24:45. | :24:50. | |
companies have a right to net of compensation they pay with increase | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
in value from the land resulting from the fact that sewage is in | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
place. Communications operators although not carrying sewage, | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
although in some cases that may seem to be the case, of a different kind, | :25:03. | :25:10. | |
whereas communication companies won't. The third point is that water | :25:11. | :25:16. | |
companies notify landowners of their intention to deploy, which means | :25:17. | :25:22. | |
only 42 days notice. The medication is operators have to negotiate | :25:23. | :25:29. | |
access with landowners and -- communications operators. The | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
landowners often have no incentive to granted. That adds to the cost. I | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
did say I would return to the issue of costs and as I moved towards the | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
end of my speech, I will say word about that. Well my friend give way? | :25:44. | :25:53. | |
I will. I have great empathy with what he says. We talk glibly about | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
access to telephony about being a human rights and out country. | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
Obviously, we need water to live, but in terms of modern life, this | :26:03. | :26:10. | |
telephony is a necessity. 40% of this bill is contained in schedule | :26:11. | :26:15. | |
one which deals with issues relating to those raised by my honourable | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
friend that it is a missed opportunity in relation to the | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
particular issue my friend raises. I am grateful to my honourable friend | :26:24. | :26:28. | |
for pointing that out. I went through schedule one earlier today | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
and having done so I wasn't Denny Wise about what relevance it had to | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
the argument I am making. -- I wasn't any wise. He has an eye for | :26:42. | :26:51. | |
the fine detail of legislation and he spotted that in less time than it | :26:52. | :26:58. | |
took me. As regards the costs, according to virgin media, it costs | :26:59. | :27:09. | |
150% more for them to put in the infrastructure than it does it want | :27:10. | :27:20. | |
the company. -- a water company. As regards electricity, it costs 66% | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
more for a communications service provider to put in the | :27:28. | :27:34. | |
infrastructure. And so, and I don't want to steal the honourable | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
member's for Eric share and Roxburgh and sell Berg -- Roxburgh and | :27:41. | :27:48. | |
Selkirk, I don't want to seal his thunder, and I condemn him roundly | :27:49. | :27:56. | |
for not using new clause 27 as an opportunity to resolve this problem, | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
that is not a criticism really, but I would ask the Minister before he | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
gets to the House of Lords, to consider this issue. I do have a | :28:06. | :28:12. | |
handy amendment available if he wants one, if not, I will try to | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
persuade somebody in another place to table it to be more thoroughly | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
debated there. As the House will know, I welcome | :28:24. | :28:27. | |
part three of the Digital Economy Bill at the second reading that | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
mentioned at that point as did many other members, the question of | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
enforcement. We looked, and that point, and the possibility of | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
Internet service providers being asked to block sites which | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
discovered regarded the government's recommendations for age | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
verification. I have raised a series of amendments giving the committee | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
stage of this bill and I disagree with the front bench opposite. The | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
ministers were in listening mode and they were keen to | :28:59. | :29:11. | |
deliver on their manifesto. Against this backdrop, I'm delighted to be | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
coming back at reports dated to welcome new clause 28 and also | :29:15. | :29:16. | |
government amendments 35-42 which addresses critical concern. It was | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
the case that the government had argued for a long time that it was | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
disproportionate to make a provision for statutory IP blocking because | :29:25. | :29:26. | |
this had been dealt with on a voluntary basis in relation to child | :29:27. | :29:32. | |
pornography. We are aware of the work done by the Internet watchers | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
foundation and also in reference to terrorist material. There was a hope | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
that IP providers would get involved in blocking sites without age | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
verification checks on a voluntary basis. But many members have | :29:47. | :29:51. | |
campaigned for years to see a voluntary provision of that sort | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
with Internet service providers in terms of introducing family friendly | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
filters where we have let the world, working across industry and | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
government in a very sensible set of provisions where we now have online | :30:05. | :30:12. | |
filters that are produced automatically by ISPs and in other | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
cases voluntarily, and seem to be working well. But there are problems | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
with the voluntary approach, and not just my concerns. Bodies like the | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
children's charities coalition of Internet safety, the NSP CC, the | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
BBFC, the digital policy Alliance, they were concerned that this | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
sensible provision of age revocation would not stick unless there was a | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
more robust in for the regime. I am delighted that the cause I | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
originated has been designed by various political parties which | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
demonstrates that our best work is done when will work together on | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
these Baikal issues. It is a testament to the power -- these | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
vitally important issues. It is a testament to this place. We only | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
have to look at our Twitter feeds, and other parts of the Internet, to | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
see how difficult these conversations are because they get | :31:18. | :31:20. | |
to the heart of the regulation of the Internet which grew up in a | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
regulation free environment. That has been part of its growth and | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
glory. It gets to this point that we asking governments and companies to | :31:32. | :31:37. | |
restrict legal material for adults? I would argue very strongly that | :31:38. | :31:47. | |
this is not about censorship, or restriction, about proving -- it is | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
about proving that people who access it over the age of 18. It is | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
encouraging socially responsible behaviour which has happened in | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
other areas, the fact that adult content sits behind personal | :32:03. | :32:14. | |
identification numbers. There is also an argument that the argument | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
in relation to terrorist material is not relevant. There is a strong | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
global consensus that neither upon Griffey nor terrorist material | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
should be tolerated so there is no need for statutory compulsion. The | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
content we are talking about here is sites that are providing material | :32:36. | :32:42. | |
defined as pornographic as opposed to material wishes legal for adults | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
to access and reasonable for adults to access. This is not an | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
anti-pornography crusade. It is unsurprising that the ISPs made it | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
clear that they would not block pornographic sites without these | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
statutory age verification checks. In evidence given to the Select | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
Committee in another place on the 25th of October, it was said that | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
the if there was a desire for ISPs to block those sites, regulation -- | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
legislation was required. They would struggle unless they are compelled | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
to, not because they don't want to, but because they would probably be | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
breaking the law. Ofcom gave the committee a similar message, saying | :33:31. | :33:38. | |
that if they did it, it really similar basis. We have heard about | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
the legal difficulties they would face if they were to undertake this | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
phone to blocking because it would race so many issues relating to net | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
neutrality. The second matter that has been | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
widely raised is that there is overwhelming support for these age | :33:55. | :33:58. | |
revocation measures to be introduced in a robust way by the majority of | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
the British public. Eight out of ten people support this manifesto | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
commitment and want it to work. The BBFC, or the Minister has chosen the | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
media regulator, all of us absolutely support them as a trusted | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
brand in this space. It is not me or anyone else who is deciding what is | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
over 18 material, it is based on the BBFC's tried and tested guidelines. | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
They themselves said it was a power they needed -- that they needed to | :34:29. | :34:38. | |
carry out the work of the regulator. She said this was consistent with | :34:39. | :34:44. | |
the regulator uses already but my point is that this is not. Their | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
powers are far more broadly drawn with regards to and of material over | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
and above simply pornography. And I do have great sympathy for the | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
clauses and amendments the lady has tabled and she is right to keep | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
pushing. Given that we have defined both the manifesto commitment and | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
the bill tightly, I wanted to achieve that first before we moved | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
to broader definitions. She is well aware that throws up many more | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
questions about the scope of regulation in this area. We both | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
know that in this space, there is a great desire to make the perfect the | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
enemy of the good. Almost any advance we have made in this space | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
has not been absolutely perfect but we think this is a process of | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
iterative steps forward and this government is doing a great job. The | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
final argument for making this blocking on a statutory basis is | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
that there is a precedent in the case of copyright infringement. It | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
seems perverse to the House on one hand to be arguing that it was legal | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
to block sites, to instruct blocking sites that infringe copyright but | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
not those that infringed a legal requirement for age revocation. It | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
would be quite wrong for us to suggest that child protection is | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
less important than protecting the interests of commercial businesses. | :36:14. | :36:19. | |
Two other points to make about why the case is so compelling. The BBFC | :36:20. | :36:24. | |
have said they will be focusing primarily on offshore sites which | :36:25. | :36:27. | |
are the main source of much of this material. The difficulty of | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
enforcing fines outside the jurisdiction will be difficult. | :36:35. | :36:38. | |
Secondly, we know that many sides are not reliant on purely financial | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
transactions coming through the sites discussed in the bill, there | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
are bits: and other forms of remuneration which are not relevant. | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
-- bitcoin. I'm delighted that the government has reduced -- introduced | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
this amendment. I will support the government's changes wholeheartedly. | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
I want to probe the Minister. Who will actually be in forcing the | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
bill? My understanding from reading through the enforcement powers is | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
that the BVA -- BBFC does not have the info from hours as required | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
under this new clause and many of us assume that Ofcom would be the | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
enforcer of choice as had been suggested explicitly. So it would be | :37:27. | :37:36. | |
-- we would be came to a year who will be enforcing because we know | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
that without robust enforcement, there will be very little incentive | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
for websites to use age verification. The whole house will | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
support us in saying we want this to be a great success. I will finish by | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
very sincerely thanking the honourable members who have | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
campaigned so tirelessly in this House and in the other place, | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
including my honourable friend for Enfield, for Congleton, and the | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
member for Bishop Auckland and a wonderful member who is no longer in | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
place, and the new members who are new and one who represents the | :38:19. | :38:21. | |
Borders his constituency is too long to spell out and my honourable | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
friend the member for Hampshire. I conclude. | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
I stand to put forward new clause 22 and 27. Both ever which I don't | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
think the minister referred to, unless I slept through that, but I | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
hang on his every word normally, so I'm sure that wasn't the case. | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
Before I do, I would like to touch on a couple of other new clauses. | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
It's a pleasure to follow the right honourable member for Devizes. Many | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
colleagues in this House have campaigned hard in this area. The | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
Government's move on new clause 20 is welcome. Though I would quickly | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
recount a story, when I was on the bill committee, I phoned home one | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
night and of course, my wife said, what have you been up to today? I | :39:06. | :39:10. | |
explained about access to underage pornography. Funnily enough I came | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
home today from work and found Robert, who's seven years old, | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
looking at inappropriate content and my heart sunk. She said, he was | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
watching the third presidential debate. | :39:24. | :39:26. | |
LAUGHTER I can see where she was coming from. | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
She said Robert, do you know what you're watching here? Yes, I do. Why | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
are you watching that? Because it's important. I have a friend at school | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
called Donald, he said. I think this brings me onto the concerns that the | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
honourable member for Cardiff west raised. I think we would share, | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
which is as we proceed down this route, it's very important that | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
these powers are a last resort, that they don't stop access to sites that | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
are unintended. As a result we proceed with care. That we take | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
sufficient time tloock at the em-- to look at the implications, that we | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
seek to avoid unintended consequences for ISPs and websites, | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
whilst still developing a robust set of measures that stop young Robert | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
accessing the content we want him to avoid. It was mentioned earlier, the | :40:23. | :40:30. | |
importance of the method of verification and the tool yoti I | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
think is how it's pronouned. I like yoti a Lottie, because what it means | :40:37. | :40:43. | |
is that databases are not built of what people are accessing and | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
individuals are protected. I commend the Labour frontbench for some of | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
their efforts to push this further. I will quickly touch on two areas | :40:51. | :40:58. | |
before going on to my new clauses. New clause seven, I'm surprised by | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
the minister's approach by mobile phone contracts. If he went and | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
consulted Ofcom they would tell them they are highly supportive of such a | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
measure, such as a maximum bill level. It seems eminently sensible | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
that when you sign up for a contract, the question is asked - | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
would you like to set a maximum amount. I don't know why the | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
Government would block. This I fully expect to revisit this some time | :41:25. | :41:27. | |
soon. I would ask the minister to check some of the wording in terms | :41:28. | :41:34. | |
of the ES sites which he said would be available to all providers. That | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
is not my understanding. The ESN is provided both by E ever and | :41:40. | :41:45. | |
themselves, but also by EAN sites, extended area network sites and they | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
are the extra sites that will be multiplatform. They are only part of | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
how they will provide the service. Perhaps he would revisit and | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
consider what he said there. My honourable friend with the equally | :41:58. | :42:03. | |
long constituency name of Inverness, barren... Worried that he wouldn't | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
get to speak. I will mention new clause 20, which seeks to provide | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
the ability, in fact, very similar to the new clause 25 that a | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
constituent can't cancel a contract if they do not have service. Which | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
seems to me a perfectly - I'll happily give way. I'm grateful. Does | :42:25. | :42:31. | |
my honourable friend agree with me, in circumstances where a consumer is | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
not able to get what they have paid for, and for example, I had | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
consumers who had to wait over four months to be reconnected to their | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
mobile signal and threatened with a ?200 cancellation fee, that is | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
flatly unacceptable. They should have an option to get out of these | :42:49. | :42:52. | |
contracts. I whole hearted lay grow with that excellent point. It | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
strikes me that this is another common sense measure that should be | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
taken. On top of this, I welcome some of the other comments about | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
linking it to autocompensation. It should be a case of either | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
cancelling a contract, yes, I will give way. A further point, I'm | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
grateful for his giving way. Is my honourable friend surprised like I | :43:16. | :43:18. | |
am, or perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that the minister has | :43:19. | :43:22. | |
refused to take, this given that his predecessor said to me that the | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
suggestion you make that mobile customers ought to be able to leave | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
their contract, if a service is unacceptable is a good one. Mobile | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
customers should not be trapped in contracts if they have no effective | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
signal and no useable service. I thank my honourable friend for that | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
extra clarification. It's why we entered the bill committee with a | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
spirit of naive optimism that our sensible clauses may yet be taken. | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
How we learned. Indeed. Madam Deputy Speaker. I will move to my new | :43:55. | :44:04. | |
clauses, 22 first of all, which put forward a proposal, a set of wording | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
to ensure that there was an explicit power for structural separation of | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
BT open reach, should that be deemed necessary. Now we in this place know | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
how critically important connectivity is. I'm sure members | :44:20. | :44:24. | |
and honourable members and right honourable members welcome the DCR | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
from Ofcom as I did. I actually support the line that they are | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
taking, which is to take a fairly strong line in terms of the measures | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
that BT should take in terms of access to ducts and poles and to | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
making a planning tool and everything more readily available. | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
But retaining the measure that structural separation remains an | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
option and indeed this was something the Secretary of State confirmed in | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
the second reading. So if that is truly to be an option on the table, | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
it's essential that Ofcom is confident that it can enforce | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
structural separation if it concludes it is necessary. What is | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
then the current situation? Ofcom considers today that it has the | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
power under the EU framework directive to impose structural | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
separation. Now clearly, though, taking such a case to the EU | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
Commission at a time when Brexit means Brexit is fraught with | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
difficulty, especially when you consider that the high likelihood | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
would be that BT would appeal any such move. It's also worth noting | :45:33. | :45:40. | |
that BT has stated publicly that it believes that it's no mechanism for | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
structural separations of a telecoms company. It's even threatened ten | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
years of litigation and arguments. Now the digital economy bill offers | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
a simple way to remove ambiguity around this issue. That's what this | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
clause aims to do. Now unfortunately, with the process of | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
the House, I have only one vote I can push in this section. So we will | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
not be pushing this one to a vote much as I would like to. I would | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
encourage the minister to revisit this and add it in as a measure, | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
even though I personally still believe the Ofcom strategy is right | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
and that separation is only the correct route if combined with | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
something else, such as a significant investment plan into | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
Open Reach from other providers currently making a lot of noise. | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
Finally, I'll address new clause 27. That is for the introduction of our | :46:38. | :46:48. | |
Broadband voucher sceech as an altern to the provision. We all | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
welcome I'm sure anything that improves connectivity. I have huge | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
reservations about the approach being taken here. I appreciate as | :46:58. | :47:03. | |
the Government outlined in supplementary papers during the | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
bill's process, there say flexible design to the USO from download | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
speed, upload speed, lay tensy and other aspects, but much of this is | :47:15. | :47:20. | |
undecided and though I would disagree fundamentally with the ten | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
mgs starting point what really concerns me is the use of a | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
universal service order. By pursuing this route, it pushes the Government | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
down a prescriptive process that it has to follow. That will lead to a | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
provider being selected or maybe a couple of providers selected, it | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
looks highly likely, I think we all know, it's likely to be BT, and I | :47:45. | :47:52. | |
think Sharon White before the DCMS committee confirmed BT is in pole | :47:53. | :47:57. | |
position. I'll give way. Very grateful. He's making an excellent | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
point. Does he agrow with me that the people who need the service, | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
that people should be able to choose the best option for them and in | :48:04. | :48:07. | |
fact, one size doesn't fit all when it comes to the rural areas. I | :48:08. | :48:10. | |
absolutely do agree with my honourable friend. I will come on to | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
that points. I would actually contrast the USO with last week's | :48:17. | :48:22. | |
announcements. We've heard from the Government that this is the future. | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
We have heard that our record in this country on fibre to the home or | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
fibre to the premises is pretty woeful. We saw the Broadband | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
investment fund announced in the previous Budget get money put into | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
it, which is welcome. Hundreds of millions were committed to 5G trials | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
and fibre back bone. All of which is welcome. What we didn't see is | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
anything specifically for rural. Now, we are actually now looking at | :48:51. | :48:59. | |
a situation where we are talking about a fibre gigabyte in urban | :49:00. | :49:07. | |
areas and tell rural areas to settle for ten megs. This isn't closing the | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
din tall divide. It's turning it into a gaping chasm. A USO badly | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
implemented won't fix the issue, but might through legislation cement in | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
this digital divide. My new clause aims to address this issue. From the | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
start, as I've looked at potential solutions here, the one that I kept | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
coming back to was a voucher alternative. I heard the world | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
Broadband forum, it was a phrase from a representative from Inca, if | :49:41. | :49:47. | |
we do a voucher scheme we turn a universal service obligation into a | :49:48. | :49:52. | |
universal service opportunity. We all know in our constituencies, we | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
have highly motivated groups of people who will yes, OK, maybe on | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
day one be happy with ten meg, if you've been living with one, it | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
would be transformational, who will quickly see that they are being left | :50:06. | :50:14. | |
behind and will be very unhappy. This bill is not specific when this | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
will be revisited and they will be left further and further behind. | :50:19. | :50:28. | |
This idea of a voucher scheme was endorsed by Inca's chairman who | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
said, "The principle of a universal service obligation, is an outdated | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
concept in a sector focussed on growth and could translate into a | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
ceiling. A voucher scheme for premises could be far more | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
effective." I urge the Government, the minister did not address this in | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
his opening remarks, to please embrace this option of a voucher | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
alternative to empower our rural communities, who I know in my own | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
community they want to go further. They understand technology. They | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
will put in fibre to the home. They will provide much faster solution. | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
It's not a one size fits all. I'll happily give way. I did address this | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
point and I said that the bill contains the USO, which will get | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
high speed Broadband everywhere. And further more, Broadband voucher | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
scheme does not require legislation, so in fact we've had one in the past | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
without legislation. Therefore I don't think that this clause is | :51:38. | :51:40. | |
necessary. I thank the minister for that | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
intervention. He makes a point that I forgot to make. There is previous | :51:45. | :51:51. | |
history here. There has been a voucher scheme, which was | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
phenomenally successful. If the Government don't put this in the | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
bill, I do not believe it would happen. Perhaps I've become a cynic | :52:01. | :52:05. | |
in this place. We should push this to a vote. We should ensure - As an | :52:06. | :52:13. | |
example of the fact that you can do this through non-legislative means, | :52:14. | :52:16. | |
not only did we have one in the past, but at the Autumn Statement, | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
last week, we announced that we're to consult on a new one. I think | :52:22. | :52:24. | |
that takes care of the concerns in this new clause. | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
I thank the minister for that positive news. But it doesn't, | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
because what I'm seeking is a specific alternative to the USO. So | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
that in my communities who want fieber to their home, this is a | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
foundational voucher that sets them on a path to something far more | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
ambitious than this Government is. The Government says fibre is the | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
future. Guess what? My constituents want to be part of that future too. | :52:49. | :52:49. | |
Thank you. Can I say, we have less than 15 | :52:50. | :53:00. | |
minutes and quite a few members wishing to speak. Brevity would be | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
fantastic. John Whittingdale. Can I start by making clear that I support | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
the provisions in the bill to acquire age verification. My name is | :53:11. | :53:18. | |
on the front of the Bill. Can I introduce an element of caution. | :53:19. | :53:26. | |
Unlike much of the material like hate speech or racist material or | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
extremist encouragement or indeed copyright breaches, what we are | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
talking about its legal content. Like it or not, the sites we are | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
discussing are visited by millions of people every day. They are some | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
of the most popular sites on the entire Internet. As I say, I support | :53:46. | :53:52. | |
the idea of age verification to ensure that only those who are | :53:53. | :54:01. | |
appropriate to view these -- this material do so. I have yet to see | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
how age verification will work, we have seen examples of content access | :54:06. | :54:12. | |
control systems through things like credit card, mobile phones, which | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
have been verified as belonging to an adult. But it is going to be | :54:17. | :54:23. | |
asking a lot for people who want to access legal content to hand over | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
their credit card numbers to pornographic website operators. I | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
think the honourable member for Shetland who flagged up the data | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
protection concerns, is absolutely right. I hope Ofcom will look | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
carefully about how these systems work. Secondly, one of the main ways | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
in which young people are being exposed to pornography is through | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
social media and Twitter. I don't see how this bill will stop that | :54:53. | :54:57. | |
happening. That is not to say we should not take action against the | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
pornographic sites. The original bill contained a number of quite | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
significant enforcement measures, like requiring payment providers, | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
website hosting companies, advertisers, to no longer deal with | :55:13. | :55:19. | |
websites which had been identified as not complying with the law under | :55:20. | :55:25. | |
this bill. And already, there are signs that the number -- a number of | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
the big providers are going to comply. The biggest operator have | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
said they will introduce age revocation systems although they | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
wanted others to do so as well. So I hope it will happen. Will the | :55:40. | :55:48. | |
gentleman give way? Forgive me, I am conscious of the Deputy Speaker's | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
strictures. I am not convinced of the value of ISP blocking. Israel is | :55:54. | :56:02. | |
in the significant curtailment of liberties, which people are | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
perfectly entitled to access. And at a time when we are very concerned | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
about the growth of censorship online and some of the countries | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
around the world who would like to take this as a precedent to say it's | :56:15. | :56:20. | |
fine to block content that we don't particularly like, I do think this | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
is a dangerous road to go down. So I hope that the measures that were | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
originally contained in the Bill will prove sufficient, that | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
operators will introduce age verification and we will pause | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
before going the next step and introduce ISP blocking. I rather | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
hope that this Digital Economy Bill is like the one debated in 2010 | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
which provided for government to intervene and require ISP blocking | :56:48. | :56:49. | |
but that measure was never introduced. Helen Goodman. I am very | :56:50. | :56:58. | |
pleased to take part in this debate and I was pleased to sign new clause | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
one. I am extremely pleased to have the opportunity to follow the member | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
for Maldon. And to say how glad I am to see the new regime on the front | :57:10. | :57:15. | |
bench who have basically accepted new clause one. I think the argument | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
that the honourable gentleman used, that because something is legal and | :57:19. | :57:24. | |
enjoyed by grown-ups, therefore we shouldn't have restrictions for | :57:25. | :57:30. | |
children, is patiently absurd. It's that... I said I support age | :57:31. | :57:39. | |
verification. The honourable gentleman said that but he said it | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
was a difficult area and one reason for that was because people enjoy | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
doing it. People enjoy having sex, grown-ups enjoy drinking alcohol, it | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
doesn't mean that these things are OK for children. Anyway, my real | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
purpose this evening is to speak to new clause 20 six. -- 26. This is an | :58:00. | :58:10. | |
amendment with which I have had considerable help from the national | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
deaf Children's Society in preparing. It is seeking to help to | :58:14. | :58:20. | |
protect those with hearing loss who have hearing aid, cochlear implant, | :58:21. | :58:26. | |
radio aids and other hearing technology to -- to protect them | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
from interference. There is a concern that the part of spectrum | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
that they are going to sell is so close on the wavelength to the | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
wavelength that these technologies use that it causes interference. The | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
new clause would place a duty on Ofcom to carry out test in advance | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
of the sale of the radio frequencies to ensure any interference is | :58:54. | :58:59. | |
identified and made public and appropriate action is taken. This | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
could be in two forms. Ofcom should not grant a wireless telegraphy | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
licence unless action is taken to remove the risk of interference, or | :59:12. | :59:16. | |
a fund should be established to cover the cost of replacing | :59:17. | :59:23. | |
technology affected. This is important for the 10 million people | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
who suffer from hearing loss and the 45,000 deaf children in this | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
country. And it enables Ofcom to fulfil its duties under the equality | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
act. The ministry said -- the minister says that tests have been | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
done and more tests will be done and that those tests, we will know what | :59:45. | :59:51. | |
they come up with in April 20 17th and everything is fine. This is not | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
the view of the national deaf Children's Society. They say that | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
they are not confident in the way these tests are going to be carried | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
out. They have undertaken considerable correspondence with the | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
regulator and there are still dispute about the way the tests | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
should be done and the interpretation of the results. And | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
even if the test are done and the results are published, on this | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
occasion as the minister suggested, what happens then? What if there is | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
interference? Are we going to see that the spectrum is not auctioned | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
off in the way that the government is intending? Are we going to see | :00:37. | :00:43. | |
some funding for people who have to have new hearing aids? The | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
Minister's response, I'm sorry to say, is not really adequate. This is | :00:49. | :00:54. | |
a particular problem for children who use radio aids in the classroom | :00:55. | :01:00. | |
to help them hear what their teachers are saying. Because unlike | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
grown-ups, they can't so easily guess what it is the person will be | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
saying because they are hearing things for the first time. The tests | :01:09. | :01:14. | |
that were done in 2014 found that anybody who had the kind of mobile | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
phones that were using the relevant frequency could interfere with the | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
hearing aid if they were four metres away. I just want to say that I know | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
quite a lot about hearing aids because my husband has terrible | :01:34. | :01:38. | |
hearing and he has two. If he goes to a party, he can hardly hear what | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
other people are saying anyway. If his hearing aids were interfered | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
with by other people standing in the room, it would be a nightmare so I | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
urge the Minister to be flexible and look at this again. Thank you very | :01:52. | :01:59. | |
much. I rise to support my own clause, new clause 25 about the | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
ability of users to cancel mobile phone contracts. Simmer the clauses | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
put forward by other members of this House. I am grateful to the Minister | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
on one hand for saying it will be considered in a green paper is that | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
the business apartment will put out next year. But I want to point out | :02:20. | :02:24. | |
that the idea of a 14 day cooling off period after you have purchased | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
a phone is somehow sufficient for a contract that will last for two | :02:30. | :02:36. | |
years, is completely inadequate. 60% of people now have contracts for two | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
years. There has been a 19% increase in people having lengthy contracts | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
in the last five or six years and is in no way negates the problem is to | :02:48. | :02:50. | |
say that if in the first 14 days they realise they can't get a | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
signal, they can exchange it? Is what happens if they move, what | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
happens if work moves? They are stuck with the contracts. This | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
problem can be solved. You need to split out the cost of the device, | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
?800, from the cost of the mobile contract, the phone and the data | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
elements of that. If we were to do that, the person could stay within | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
the contract to buy the device, but could move to another operator which | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
will provide a contract with the ability to access a phone and data | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
signal. My point is very simple. The briefing on this is misleading. I | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
don't believe that Ofcom are likely to do anything about this in the | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
next year or two and I thank the Minister for his advice that it will | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
be considered in the green paper upcoming next year because I think | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
unless we get a bit more radical people will be forced to pay | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
hundreds of pounds for a service they never received. I would have | :03:53. | :04:00. | |
liked to have spoken about clause three and new clause 14 and new | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
clause 20 one. I will restrict your new clause 13 which introduced a | :04:08. | :04:10. | |
statutory code of practice to improve the performance of social | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
media platforms dealing with incidents of online abuse which | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
cross the criminal threshold. This clause would issue an obligation on | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
the Minister to issue a code of practice which would cover the | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
services that should be provided. Matters which are commonplace in | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
complaints procedures already existing in the public utilities | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
sector. The code of practice would also cover and industry's specific | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
requirements to enforce privacy settings for minors. This would be | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
drafted after consideration with the industry and key stakeholders. | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
Extensive consultation with a live the bodies would guarantee a | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
comprehensive set of guidelines. That's macro with key bodies. -- | :04:55. | :05:08. | |
with key bodies. The Minister could revise the code of practice. | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Technology is ever adapting and it is right and proper that legislation | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
protecting vulnerable people from predatory and unacceptable behaviour | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
online should be adapted to reflect the online world. Clause 13 would | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
have allowed that. I would have talked extensively on this matter, | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
had there been time. I now hope that the pointer would have made will be | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
taken up in another place. I am pleased to withdraw amendment | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
to in my name in favour of new clause 29 which addresses the | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
loophole which might amendment sought to address and which I spoke | :05:47. | :05:51. | |
about at second reading. I want to thank the Minister for listening and | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
introducing new clause 20 nine. The loophole which it seeks to address | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
is that current law already established by the Communications | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
act 2003, covering pornographic content online in the form of video | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
on demand, only requires age verification in relation to our 80 | :06:10. | :06:18. | |
but not 18 related material when steam -- stream from stipes within | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
the UK. This bill without clause 29 would only have dealt with the | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
provision of age revocation for 18 and Are 18 when streamed in the | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
country from abroad. New clause 29 will deal with this issue. It is not | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
appropriate for under 18 is to purchase videos which are 18 rated | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
from a shop, and rightly so, so where the technology is available to | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
apply similar protections online, it would be wrong not to use it. I'm | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
grateful the Minister is infusing new clause 20 nine. Public opinion | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
is with us on this issue. Polling on 2000 adults in July last year said | :07:02. | :07:11. | |
that 23% that's macro 73% of people support age verification. 13% | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
disagreed. I rise to raise concerns which have | :07:15. | :07:20. | |
been expressed by the right honourable friend -- right | :07:21. | :07:29. | |
honourable member for Maldon. As the parent of two teenagers myself, I | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
completely understand the motivation of those who have brought these | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
concerns to the government. I commend them for the way they have | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
done it and I commend the government for responding in the way that they | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
have. I feel that this is another occasion where the government is | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
going to be responding because something must be done. And I fear | :07:48. | :07:53. | |
that in fact what we are doing is going down a road which will leave | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
is exposed to the law of unintended consequences. My primary concern is | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
that the provisions are proposed -- the provisions proposed here will | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
not be that effective. They will be capable of being circumvented pretty | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
easily by any tech savvy 14-year-old. That means, where do we | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
strike the balance between the protection offered against the risks | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
that come with it? One of the risks that we have not touched on yet is | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
the risk of complacency. Parents, seeing changes like this being made, | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
will think that this problem has been sold, it has gone away and that | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
they will no longer need to be vigilant in the way that they might | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
have been hitherto. The real concerns are around the | :08:40. | :08:49. | |
holding of this data. There are no provisions in the bill as it's | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
currently drafted to secure the privacy anonymity of those who are | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
using these sites. The minister said that the data will be held in | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
accordance with the Data Protection Act, as we saw from the Ashley | :09:03. | :09:09. | |
Maddison leaks that was of no great assistance. Let's not forget what | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
exactly is at stake here. The number of people who as of a consequence of | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
that hack and that information being put into the public domain, then | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
committed suicide. It seems to me what we are about here is taking the | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
symptom rather than the disease. And what would make the significant | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
changes that we all want is better sex and relationship education. | :09:34. | :09:40. | |
I'm sorry that the member will not get his one minute of speaking. | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
Order, under the order of the House of earlier today I must now put the | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
questions necessary to bring to a clon collusion proceedings -- | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
conclusions proceedings on the first group. The order be that clause 28 | :09:53. | :09:59. | |
of read a second time. I think the ayes have it. Government new clause | :10:00. | :10:04. | |
28 be added to the bill, as many of that opinion say aye. To the | :10:05. | :10:10. | |
contrary no. The ayes have it. I call the minister to bring new | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
clause 29 formally. The question is that it be added to the bill. Say | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
aye, of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. Move new clause | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
ten formally. The question is that new clause ten be added to the bill. | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
As many of that opinion say aye. To the contrary no. Division. Clear the | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
lobby. The question is that new clause ten | :10:34. | :11:58. | |
be added to the bill. Those of that opinion say aye. Those of the | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
contrary no. Order! Order! | :12:02. | :24:31. | |
The ayes to the right, 171, the noes, 278. The eyes to the right | :24:32. | :24:42. | |
171, the nos 278. The noes have it. Armlock. I ask... The question is | :24:43. | :24:54. | |
that amendment is 35-4 joo be made. The ayes have it. I call Calum Kerr | :24:55. | :25:03. | |
to move the amendment formally. The question is new clause 27 the added. | :25:04. | :25:14. | |
As many as the opinion, say I -- ayes division, clear the lobby. | :25:15. | :26:55. | |
The question is that new clause 27 the added to the bill. As many as | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. | :27:02. | :33:15. | |
Order! Order! The ayes to the right, 221. The noes to the left, 227. The | :33:16. | :36:57. | |
ayes to the right, 221. The nose to the -- the noes to the left, 227. | :36:58. | :37:06. | |
The noes have it. Armlock. Minister to move government | :37:07. | :37:14. | |
amendments 23 and 24 formally. To move formally. The question is that | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
amendments 23 and 24 be made. As many as are of the opinion, say | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
now come to group two and two new clause six. With which it will be | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
convenient to consider the other new clauses and amendments grouped | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
together on the paper. Mr Kevin Brennan to move. Thank you, | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
I move new clause six. We withdrew one amendment for the | :37:46. | :37:54. | |
Select Committee to table it in this group. Can I move new clause six | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
which stands in my name and in my honourable friends. I know the | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
minister has on many occasions, who's not here because of I | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
preplanned Parliamentary delegation which she's part of, who did a | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
tremendous job in committee on this bill and has universally been | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
praised on both sides for her efforts. Regarding new clause six, | :38:18. | :38:24. | |
whilst subtitling is at or near 100% across public service broadcasters, | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
three quarters of the UK's 90 on demand providers still offer no | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
subtitles at all. This is despite the fact that nearly one in five of | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
the UK population use them, according to Ofcom. The principle | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
behind the communications act recognise that those with sensory | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
loss should not be denied access to the information service that's many | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
of us take for granteded, those with sensory loss cannot keep up with the | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
changing technology. In July 2013, the then minister for the digital | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
economy, the honourable member for Didcot and wantage, acknowledged | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
this, arguing that, "If progress isn't made in three years' time, we | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
will consider legislation. " That was in the department's document | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
connectivity, content and consumers 2013. Here we are, three years | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
later, with an appropriate legislative vehicle right here in | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
front of us and the Government failing to act. We wonder why. There | :39:25. | :39:28. | |
were strong rumblings that the Government were planning to act and | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
we were checking the amendment paper every day anticipating that they | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
would. So it's odd that we as the Opposition have to bring forward | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
this new clause, which takes on the concerns of the Government, when | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
it's supposed to be the other way round, the Government taking on the | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
concerns of other people in the House during the course a bill. New | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
clause six would update the existing regulatory regime and apply it to | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
on-demand. It's clearly time the Government acted to reflect the | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
digital world in which we live and allow those with sensory loss to | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
play a full and active part in it, so the Government should accept new | :40:06. | :40:08. | |
clause six. I look forward to the minister telling us that he will. | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
New clause eight, I will of course. On new clause six, does my | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
honourable friend find it shocking that Virgin, we discuss provision of | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
telephony, but Tivo under their system, one of the 21 on demand | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
services, less than 5% offered through Virgin have subtitles, isn't | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
that a prime example to my honourable friend of why we need new | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
clause six? It is a prime example. I may even have had it in my notes | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
before I trinkiated them considerably to make progress. He's | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
right to point that out. I move to new clause eight which opposes the | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
way the Government is dealing with the free TV licenses for over 75s. | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
The continuation of free TV licenses for over 75s was a promise that was | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
made in the Conservative Party's manifesto, a manifesto which many | :41:08. | :41:13. | |
over 75s voted for in good faith and now just 16 months later, the | :41:14. | :41:17. | |
Government's legislating to do away with that pledge in all but name. On | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
the pretence that it should now be for the BBC to decide who gets a | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
free television license. I'm afraid the promise contained in the | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
manifesto was pretty unequivocal. It said, "We will maintain the current | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
pensioner benefits, including winter fuel payments, free bus passes, free | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
prescriptions and TV licenses." Notice all that list of Labour | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
achievements in that quote, by the way. It said "maintain" not play | :41:47. | :41:53. | |
pass the policy parcel. Which is what the Government is doing. | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
They're legislating to hand over responsibility to a body which will | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
not be able to afford to maintain that entitlement. I will give way. | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
Would my honourable friend accept that this is actually a political | :42:07. | :42:09. | |
decision and it's wrong to compromise the BBC in this way, | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
where they're in tune to politics. Far be it to me to accuse the | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
Government for taking political decisions, it's the House of Commons | :42:21. | :42:25. | |
after all, but nevertheless, it's a broken promise masquerading as an | :42:26. | :42:29. | |
administrative change. If he was implying that it's a craven | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
approach, he would be right to say that as well. I'm sure the minister | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
will argue that in fact the BBC are somehow being rewarded handsomely in | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
the charter renewal process and that the BBC will decide their funding | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
policy for over 75s set within that context and will claim support from | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
the BBC for what they are doing, because the BBC have said they are | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
in favour. It's the kind of support you get Madam Deputy Speaker, when | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
someone with a loaded gun places it gets your head and asks for your | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
support. There's a reason why the BBC have agrowed to take over | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
control of setting entitlement for over 75s licenses, that's because | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
they know they can't afford it at its current rate. The BBC should | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
never have been given the responsibility for delivering on a | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
Conservative Party manifesto pledge. Frankly, I will give way. I | :43:21. | :43:26. | |
apologise for interrupting his flow once again. But giving the BBC this | :43:27. | :43:35. | |
short straw was at the same time as they were renegotiating their | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
future. The BBC was under durs when they had to accept this -- duress. | :43:41. | :43:49. | |
That is why the Meta foreof the loaded -- metafore of the loaded | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
gun. We don't have this a deal negotiated in good faith, that's | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
what the honourable gentleman is referring to, it's actually a little | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
more that blackmail. Our new clause eight is very clear. Did somebody, | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
yes, of course, I will. I apologise for being controversial, but he | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
won't agree with. This but this is like the triple lock. The fact is | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
that there are a lot of pensioners over the age of 75 who are perfectly | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
capable of paying a license. Maybe we should concentrate resources on | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
people who really can't afford to pay, that piling more and more | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
benefits on the way to pension -- on the weight of pensions. I know it's | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
controversial but it's a point to make. It's anner tire legitimate | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
point of view. That's not what's under here. What is under discussion | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
is who should take that decision. We say that decision should be taken by | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
this House and the Government should be brave enough to face the | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
electorate saying - we have decided in the way that the honourable | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
gentleman suggests that this policy is not a priority. Instead of which | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
it is pretending somehow or other that it is keeping its pledge whilst | :44:56. | :45:00. | |
transferring responsibility to an unaccountable body. I know the | :45:01. | :45:02. | |
honourable gentleman in his long Parliamentary career has been very, | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
very powerfully, a powerful advocate on behalf of this House and | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
democracy and against this kind of transfer of responsibility From From | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
Both Sides Now this House from -- from this House, to the duly located | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
Government. That's why I hope he will you under the amendment. It's a | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
point of principle that I'm getting at really for us. We can't accept | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
the policy which takes responsibility for even a small part | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
of our Social Security system and gives it to an organisation with no | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
direct accountability to the electorate. So if this amendment | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
fails, Labour will do everything in our power to make it clear to those | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
millions of over 75s exactly what is going on. It's not the BBC which | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
will be reducing or taking away your entitlement to TV licenses, it was | :45:50. | :45:55. | |
the Government who knowingly engineered this particular change. | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
If you look at the Budget 2016 red book it's clear how much money the | :46:00. | :46:07. | |
Government is intending to save from this, 2018/19, 185 million. In | :46:08. | :46:14. | |
?2020/21725 million. I turn to our new clause 17. This aims to | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
modernise the public service broadcaster regime as recommended by | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
Ofcom. Existing law to be extended to include on demand channels and | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
men use. The broadcasting landscape has changed significantly, due to | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
the emergence of new technologies, iPlayer, iPad, digital TV | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
switchover, whilst this legislation ensured the communications act 2003 | :46:38. | :46:44. | |
ensured prominence on broadcast TV it does not apply to catch up | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
services or connected sets. Connected TVs, for example like Sky | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
Cube box move the TV guide, where public service broadcasters occupy | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
the most prominent positions so it is increasingly hard to find. | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
Public, seven out of ten of the public, say they want the TV channel | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
ats the top of channel listings and they want the iPlayer and on demand | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
service there too. Amongst connected TV users they are ten times more | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
likely to see the TV guide first than the platform operator's | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
recommendations first. This holds true in focus groups, where | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
consumers gave feed back of the obscuring of the TV guide. One said, | :47:25. | :47:29. | |
"I love Sky Cube, but I would change where the TV guide is. It's almost | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
tucked away somewhere on my screen. You expect technology to make life | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
easier. But this is making it harder. It's an extra step." | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
Essentially the public are paying towards things like BBC content | :47:45. | :47:47. | |
which is becoming increasingly hard to find as a result. The minister | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
argued in committee that Ofcom should adapt the code in line with | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
neck know logical developments. -- technological developments. But | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
Ofcom has called for legislative change. The point was made that the | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
TV guide is in declining importance due to TV and internet services | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
however nine out of ten of those who watch live or on demand use the EPG | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
to access TV programmes. Our new clause builds upon the current | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
system with a strong duty placed on Ofcom to provide clearer guidelines | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
than at present. Then industry applying these as appropriate to | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
their platforms. If the Government really believes in public service | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
broadcasting and it says it does. It should support our new clause 17. | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
Turning now to new clause 18. This is about the listed sport egg vents | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
regime which ensures events such as the Olympics are freely and widely | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
available. Unfortunately, this is at risk. Our new clause would help to | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
safeguard listed events into the future. 45 million people in the UK | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
watched the Rio 2016 Olympics. Millions watched the euros, | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
including Wales' stunning run to the semifinals, this summer. Listed | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
events are responsible for 5% of sports output but 60% of sports | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
viewing in this country. The current law specifies that 95% of the | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
population must be reached by a channel for it to acquire listed | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
events rights. Due to the proliferation of alternative media | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
devices PSBs believe that by the end of this Parliament no TV channel | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
will meet that 95% reach criteria. So we're offering a solution in new | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
clause 18. There's a crucial legal difference between receiving a | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
channel and watching it. Replacing the criterion on the capability to | :49:41. | :49:42. | |
receive a channel with an alternative that it has been watched | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
based on its uses over the past year would capture factors like | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
continuous free to air availability, popularity and audience awareness. | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
This new clause would also lower the threshold from 95% to 90%. New | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
clause 18 would give the Secretary of State powers to amend that | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
threshold so that the law is flexible enough to reflect | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
consumption strends and change in new and unpredictable way. New | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
clause 15. Over the past few years there have been a series of round | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
table discussions with search engines, including Google, binning, | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
Yahoo! And rights holders including the British phonographic industry, | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
music publy sifts association and alliance for intellectual property. | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
They have been trying to negotiate a code of practice to copyright | :50:36. | :50:44. | |
infringements. These discussions are dragging on. They are yet to find | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
agreement. Our amendment would provide the Secretary of State with | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
the powers to legislate that a code of practice be agreed if the next | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
rounds of talks fail to come to a conclusion. Piracy continues to | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
weaken the UK recording music industry, for example, academic | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
evidence based on average retail prices and Ofcom's tracker survey | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
indicates a loss of between ?150 million and ?300 million a year. Our | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
new clause would give the Secretary of State a back stop power to | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
legislate that a code of practice be agreed. I think the Government | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
should accept that it's now time for action in relation so that. -- to | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
that. On that point, this was actually a point put in the | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
Conservative manifesto. It would be ffrt if the Government would come | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
forward and support this amendment today to implement a promise they | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
made at the last general election. Once again my honourable friend | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
anticipates something that I was dough to say but I didn't say and | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
she is absolutely correct to point that out. Clearly the figures show | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
that isn't being implemented even though the minister claimed in | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
committee it was. I turn now to our new clause 16. This is about public | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
lending right. Honourable members might be surprised to know it | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
doesn't extend to e-books where they're borrowed remotely. By their | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
very nature they are borrowed remotely. It's ludicrous that 2. 3 | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
million remote loans were made in the last year none of which were | :52:14. | :52:22. | |
counted for public lending right. This predicament has been | :52:23. | :52:25. | |
significantly worsened by the closure of public libraries | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
occurring on this Government's watch as a result of its failed now we | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
know austerity policies. This clause would close the loophole and the | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
support of several bodies. In 2013, the Government seemed to say they | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
were going to do something about this, following the independent | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
review of e lending in public libraries in England, the Government | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
said they intended to reflect technological changes. Had they done | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
so, other problems with e-books could have been resolved, such as | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
e-books being subject to VAT but physical books have done. They | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
haven't and the issue remain unreSoved. The new clause is simple. | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
The issue is acknowledged by the Government. It's in nobody's | :53:13. | :53:18. | |
interest to leave it unresolved. At committee stage, it was | :53:19. | :53:20. | |
un-Co-operative I hope that changes today. Turning now to our new clause | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
30. The aim of this new clause is to tackle a proliferation of devices | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
which either alone or in conjunction with other technology give access to | :53:31. | :53:36. | |
copyright infringing material. The most well knownical pull is the | :53:37. | :53:42. | |
internet protocol TV box, a recent Government report found a 33% | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
increase in the illegal downloading of TV programmes between March and | :53:47. | :53:50. | |
May 2015 compared with the same months two years earlier. | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
When we discussed this in committee, the government claimed this issue | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
was covered by other laws, such as the Ford axed 20 -- 2006 but the | :54:03. | :54:09. | |
broadcasting and creative industries disagree that this is enough. They | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
argue that this must be pursued by the police, especially since IT | :54:15. | :54:23. | |
resources are thinly spread. Alan new clause should command government | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
support in the light of its enforcement strategy. The IP | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
Minister from another place said the government would "Look at new areas | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
where we might need to create new legal tools to tackle new modes of | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
infringement. We will look at legislation around set-top boxes and | :54:43. | :54:46. | |
whether we have enough effective remedies to tackle that." New | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
thinking is needed. If the government won't legislate in this | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
bill, when will they? If they are serious about meeting their | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
obligations in their own enforcement strategy, they should implement our | :55:00. | :55:04. | |
new clause. I move onto new clause 30 one. Am | :55:05. | :55:10. | |
not moving this clause because it was in our name originally in a | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
different name -- number. We withdrew it and then added our names | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
in support to allow the Select Committee to table it on a | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
cross-party basis. Other colleagues were won't to talk more about that. | :55:24. | :55:31. | |
This is about buying a ticket and the extortionate prices at which | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
they are sold on secondary sites making access to entertainment | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
harder for the public. I want to pay tribute to my fellow member for | :55:44. | :55:49. | |
Sunderland West for her tireless and energetic campaigning on this is | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
you. I will give way. Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
Does he agree with me that true fans do not stand a chance, touts have | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
evolved from blokes wearing sheepskin jackets lurking outside | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
stadiums trying to sell spare tickets to becoming IT crooks who | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
harvest thousands of tickets seconds after they go on sale? I do agree | :56:15. | :56:21. | |
with that. The minister gave a tear-jerking story in committee | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
about his own efforts to buy a ticket to a Paul Simon concert at | :56:25. | :56:31. | |
the Royal Albert Hall. We look forward to hearing, when he comes to | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
his seat at the moment... I must take this opportunity I will give | :56:35. | :56:46. | |
way. I am really looking forward to the contribution that my honourable | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
friend from Washington will be making in a moment. Is this the | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
moment that we finally do something about ticket touts in this House? I | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
haven't been an MP for all that long and we have been talking about this | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
for a long time. On behalf of all those fans are just want to enjoy | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
music. Justin Bieber tickets on sale for ?1000 and can we make sure that | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
everybody in our country can enjoy music? My honourable friend makes | :57:13. | :57:20. | |
that point passionately. I'm must take the opportunity to pay tribute | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
to my honourable friend from Sunderland and Washington and I hope | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
we can play a part in her getting a good result when the minister gives | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
way on this point. She has pointed out in correspondence with us about | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
an analogy sent in by an individual an analogy sent in by an individual | :57:40. | :57:46. | |
who pointed out that the ticket tout approached is nothing more than a | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
protection racket because the bad guys create the problem and then | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
they go around charging everybody else. Think that problem. And so | :57:54. | :57:59. | |
this new clause would acknowledge ticket touting for what it is, | :58:00. | :58:04. | |
criminal exploitation. I hope the government will listen to those | :58:05. | :58:07. | |
speaking from all sides of the House and do all it can to prevent and | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
prosecute. What my right honourable friend agree with me that another | :58:13. | :58:17. | |
thing might need -- that might need to be tackled if the scandal of | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
administration fees. UK 50 quid for the ticket and 20 quid for the | :58:23. | :58:26. | |
booking fee. It should be ?70 up front. I understand the point is | :58:27. | :58:33. | |
making, but I will stick to the closes down in our name. | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
I am now onto new clause five which for the first time would establish a | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
duty on companies to report a breach of cyber security and inform | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
customers where possible. Just 28% of attacks are reported to the | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
police. We welcome the announcement from the minister that he will be | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
implementing the GDP are in full but only -- that only provides extensive | :58:57. | :59:08. | |
caveats and falls short. Our clause would impose a duty on data | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
controllers to inform in the event of a breach of data security. | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
New clause 11, this is about a public register of share data. It | :59:19. | :59:28. | |
would require all new shares to be that share dealings to be disclosed. | :59:29. | :59:35. | |
It would be transparency -- if there was transparency about shading there | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
would be information about whether problem can be solved. | :59:41. | :59:49. | |
There have been absence of orders in response of. The argument is that | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
the current data should not -- has not prevented fraud. Part five of | :59:55. | :00:08. | |
the bill will remain a concern but we asked the governor to accept | :00:09. | :00:16. | |
clause 11. I turned clause 12. This is about data collection, the | :00:17. | :00:19. | |
currency of the Digital economy but this bill has done nothing to | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
address people's right over the data which are increasingly a cause for | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
concern. Consumer mistrust in the digital economy and the use of our | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
data is becoming corrosive. We are calling for a Royal commission over | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
the use of our data in the commercial sector, to establish its | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
extent and to draw up a bill of rights on which consumers can rely | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
upon. This would put a requirement on government to commission an | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
independent review of the information and data and | :00:53. | :00:55. | |
administration under which we would seek to establish what direction the | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
stated policy intent of government and big business for individuals to | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
have control over their own data is heading. Many providers are in the | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
market for data and are many ways in which our data can be modified. It | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
only takes one exposing on dispatches or a mail on Sunday | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
scandal and the government will be full to react. And it will likely | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
overreact. This bill provides an excellent opportunity to look at | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
these problems in the light of day. New clause 19 is about free school | :01:30. | :01:37. | |
meals. Currently, many families eligible for free school wheels | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
don't claim them. This clause would explicitly set out that councils can | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
share benefit data with school to allow eligible children to be | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
automatically enrolled rather having to apply. -- rather than. I'm | :01:50. | :01:58. | |
grateful for this, this was an issue raised in committee. This should | :01:59. | :02:06. | |
waive the two tier authorities in cases like free school meals, | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
there's an ability for both of our authorities share data seamlessly as | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
unitary authorities doing men # Metropolitan areas. | :02:17. | :02:22. | |
I agree and I would recommend anybody to read his longer remarks. | :02:23. | :02:32. | |
I'm grateful for this amendment because it follows a private members | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
bill that I introduced. Following the example that Liverpool made, | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
will did the automatic registration for free school meals and resulted | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
in three quarters of ?1 million more money coming into the area to target | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
those poorest families. He is correct, he anticipated that I was | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
going to say that I wanted to praise him and the honourable member again | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
for Washington and Sunderland West for the work done in this area. We | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
hope the government can support what I think is a very sensible | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
amendment. Now, I turn to amendment three, our final one. In the | :03:12. | :03:22. | |
aftermath of care. Data scandal it is vital that patients can have come | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
evidence in the health service and have confidence in sharing | :03:29. | :03:31. | |
information with health care professionals. Part five of the bill | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
would appear to permit an unprecedented sharing of | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
confidential information, particularly cool 29. We are | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
concerned that if information sharing powers in clause 29 | :03:44. | :03:52. | |
including information held by bodies providing health care, | :03:53. | :03:54. | |
confidentiality would be undermined. We will ensure that this information | :03:55. | :04:01. | |
is exempt from the information powers in clause 20 nine. Thereby | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
upholding current projections for confidentiality. We believe the bill | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
should be amended to ensure patient confidentiality is protected by | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
clarifying that the bill does not give powers to public authorities to | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
disclose health care information. This would bring clause 29 in line | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
with clause 56 which says information can be shared for | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
research purposes. This was amended at committee stage to prevent any | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
erosion of the protections against information sharing. We believe | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
similar prediction should be extended to part five of the bill. | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
Before I sit down, I will give way to the honourable gentleman. This | :04:46. | :04:51. | |
may have come up in committee will make up later, that the National | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
Union of Journalists' concerns about journalists not been mentioned on | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
private data being shared, does up now or later on? You may have missed | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
it but we have had second reading and committee stage, and we are now | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
at report stage so it will have to come up in the House of Lords. It | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
may also come up... The honourable lady has an amendment at in this | :05:14. | :05:24. | |
group. Code of practice, accessibility to on demand services | :05:25. | :05:32. | |
for people affected his -- with problems affecting visibility all | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
sides. The question is, that new clause 60 read a second time. I will | :05:37. | :05:44. | |
resist the temptation to be drawn by the honourable gentleman into | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
discussing his new clause eight covering the funding of the free | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
television licences, it is an issue which we have debated at some length | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
in the past already. Instead, in the spirit of consensus, I would like to | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
concentrate on some of those other amendments where I have great | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
sympathy. The first, new clause 15, we discuss at second reading. The | :06:07. | :06:15. | |
concern that the creative industries complaints about the fact that | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
search engines regularly produce a majority of illegal sites when | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
seeking content through Google and other search engines. That has been | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
the subject of discussion between the search companies and the rights | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
owners and the government for a long time. Progress has been grey seal. | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Since we have that discussion at second reading, -- progress has been | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
placed seal. We have had the opportunity of talking to Google. | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
They made the point that if you put in the name of the artist and the | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
name of the track that you wish, the overwhelming majority are illegal | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
results. That is certainly progress. It is better than it used to be. -- | :07:00. | :07:08. | |
the majority are legal. The majority live don't want to break the law, | :07:09. | :07:15. | |
but find them selves being directed to illegal sites, that is a step | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
forward. But that doesn't deal with the problem of people who don't want | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
to pay for music. If you put an additional couple of terms into the | :07:25. | :07:36. | |
search line, such as MP3 or "Free", you get different results. That | :07:37. | :07:44. | |
remains a big problem. He knows and he has the new results from the | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
intellectual property office, 78 million tracks were illegally access | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
between March and May this year. 20% of all access to the Internet for | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
music is illegal downloads. It was promised in the Conservative Party | :07:59. | :08:01. | |
manifesto that it will be dealt with. Does he believe now is a time | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
for action? I do think that more needs to be | :08:05. | :08:13. | |
done. The counter to that statistic is the number of pages that have | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
been taken down. The bpi alone are notifying half a million infringing | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
pages, and they are promptly removed. As soon as one comes down, | :08:25. | :08:32. | |
more go up. The need to achieve greater agreement between the search | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
companies and the rights editors remains as great as it ever did, and | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
so the idea that the Government should spur them on to get that | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
agreement by saying that unless it can be obtained, the Government may | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
have to be imposed a code of practice, I think is something we | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
now need to at least consider. I don't necessarily say that I support | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
the honourable gentleman's new clause, but I have considerable | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
sympathy. We have a long way to go to solve this problem, and at the | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
moment, the progress is almost impossible to detect. The second new | :09:10. | :09:16. | |
clause, that I have even greater sympathy with, is his new clause 13. | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
My right honourable friend on the front bench is a champion of the | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
creative industries, because he knows that our economy benefits | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
enormously from the strength of the UK creative industry. The success of | :09:32. | :09:38. | |
that industry rests on IP rights. They have to be confident that the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
investment that they make, and their skills, will receive proper award | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
from consumers who pay for that content. It isn't just the film | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
industry, the television industry, the music industry and the sports | :09:52. | :09:56. | |
companies. It is also our broadcasters, who are spending | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
billions of pounds to acquire rights, and they are entitled to | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
expect that the people who can then access those rights should be people | :10:06. | :10:15. | |
who can do so legitimately, and can pay for it, not through illegal | :10:16. | :10:17. | |
streams from offshore. The latest development in the technology is IP | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
TV set-top boxes. These are now being marketed in vast numbers, and | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
they arrive fully loaded with the codes and the access to go straight | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
to the sites which are providing illegal content. It may be the case | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
that an empty set-top box is not itself illegal, but clearly where it | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
is being marketed on the basis that it is all too simple to fill it with | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
the apps and the codes which will get to illegal sites is the problem | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
we need to address. I will give my right honourable friend an example | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
that was quoted to me today. This was an advert on Amazon Black Friday | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
sales. We are talking no more than a couple of days ago. It read, come | :11:06. | :11:14. | |
with the newest Cody 16.1. Cut your monthly TV subscription and enjoy | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
free movies, shows, and live entertainment from all over the | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
world, including sports. Forget the limitations and necessary payments | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
by using Apple TV or Android on your TV. This is being marketed on | :11:29. | :11:35. | |
Amazon, and those boxes are being shipped in their millions from China | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
in the main, but elsewhere also Mac. They are very clearly being used to | :11:42. | :11:50. | |
make it easy for consumers to access content free and illegally. That is | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
doing real damage to our creative industry. I'm sure that the | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
honourable gentleman's amendment is the right way, but the problem it | :12:00. | :12:07. | |
identifies is a very real one. Therefore I hope that the Government | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
will look to see what additional measures we can do to ensure that | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
our IP law remains up-to-date with the technological developments which | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
are now once again threatening our creative industries. The last new | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
clause I want to refer to is new clause 30 one. When I had the | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
privilege of chairing the Select Committee, we spent a lot of time | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
discussing ticket touting. At that stage, we were unconvinced that it | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
was right either to ban the secondary market, or necessarily to | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
impose a flat rate top up limit as to how much extra could be charged | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
on a ticket. Those were two possible solutions. We felt that this was | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
more an issue for the industry and the market to address, and indeed | :12:59. | :13:02. | |
the industry has worked hard to introduce technological requirements | :13:03. | :13:09. | |
designed to stop people selling on tickets. However, I was interested | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
to hear from the honourable gentleman about my right honourable | :13:14. | :13:19. | |
friend's Paul Simon 's experience. I do not necessarily share his musical | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
taste, that when I sought to buy tickets for the V Festival, and was | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
presented with the inability to get onto the website within the first | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
ten minutes, and then in the 12 minutes was informed it was sold | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
out, and in the 13th minute discovered that the tickets were | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
being sold for four times the face value, I have some sympathy. He | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
mentioned earlier on that there are possible industry -based solutions | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
out there. I'm just reminded of the way that the Government handled the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
2012 Olympics, where you could not get tickets without providing photo | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
ID, and it was an end-user sales, which meant that people could not | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
buy large numbers of tickets in the way he has just described for the V | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
Festival or for Paul Simon. So I wonder whether he feels the solution | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
does lie with the sporting and entertainment industries, and that | :14:22. | :14:23. | |
they could have done that several years ago. It's peculiar they should | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
come to this place asking for legislation solution when there is a | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
software solution out right now. I was fortunate enough to attend one | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
of the greatest concerts of all time, the reunion concert by Led | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Zeppelin at the O2, where exactly that system was introduced. You had | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
to produce the credit card which was used to purchase the ticket in order | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
to get it. You didn't get the ticket until you arrived at the venue. But | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
that does impose quite a considerable additional burden on | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
the ticket purchaser, either to supply a photograph or to take | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
credit cards. That does not assist where there is a legitimate reason | :15:11. | :15:23. | |
why somebody might want to transfer their ticket to another person, | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
because for some reason they are not able to go. We do not want to stop | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
the secondary market working in a way that is legitimate in some | :15:29. | :15:30. | |
circumstances. Since the Select Committee looked at this matter | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
under his chairmanship, one of the big changes is technology. This | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
technology has effectively destroyed the primary market, because for most | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
people, they have no chance of buying the tickets they want. I do | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
agree. That was my experience when I sought to purchase tickets. For that | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
reason, I think that the suggestion contained in new clause 30 to target | :16:00. | :16:06. | |
specifically the electronic purchasing in a short period of the | :16:07. | :16:15. | |
almost the entire ticket allocation automatically is something that is | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
clearly going to prevent ordinary fans from accessing it. I cannot | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
believe it is what the promoters want to happen. So to look | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
specifically at this problem is an interesting approach, and certainly | :16:33. | :16:40. | |
worth exploring further. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
to follow the honourable member for Maldon. I was a little unkind to him | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
earlier this evening, so I would like to make amends by saying that | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
he spoke a lot of good sense on the matter of illegal downloads. I would | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
like to on clause 25 and 26. I need to say that... Amendments. Isn't | :17:02. | :17:11. | |
that what I said? Amendments 25 and 26. I am the chair of the all-party | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
Parliamentary group for the NUJ. The arrangements for the secretary act | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
appear under my name in the register of interests. The NUJ were extremely | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
helpful in drawing this problem to my attention, and drafting the | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
amendments. In its current form, part five of the Bill appears to put | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
freedom of expression and journalistic rights under serious | :17:42. | :17:49. | |
threat by criminalising onward unauthorised disclosure of | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
information, specifically clauses 49 and 50 completely fail to recognise | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
the role of journalists in providing information that is in the public | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
interest. This is the point that the honourable member for Worthing was | :18:03. | :18:09. | |
trying to raise. Clause 32 as well, which comes earlier. I hope the | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
Government will respond on the amendments and the whole section. In | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
the current version of the Bill, publications made in the media that | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
are in the public interest are not in the list of exceptional | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
circumstances in which information to combat fraud in the public sector | :18:28. | :18:34. | |
and information related to this can be disclosed. So if a whistle-blower | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
were to leak the records of a private company to a journalist | :18:41. | :18:44. | |
without authorisation, and the journalist ran a story based on it, | :18:45. | :18:52. | |
both parties could receive criminal sentences. This is quick to | :18:53. | :18:55. | |
particularly pertinent for clause 50, which states that a person who | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
discloses information not in the particular circumstances will be | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
committing an offence. If the minister cannot respond, because it | :19:08. | :19:10. | |
is quite complex, I would like him to write to me about the definition | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
of the information covered and the definition of the public sector | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
here. I was given information about a company currently owned by the | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
taxpayer as a subsidiary of one of the banks we bought in 2008. This | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
company was selling tax avoidance schemes in Switzerland. Now I spoke | :19:32. | :19:39. | |
about that in the House, but had I given that information to a | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
journalist, and it had been printed in a newspaper, under these | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
provisions it would appear to be the case that the journalist or the | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
newspaper would be criminalised. This cannot be the Government's | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
intention. I'm sure the Government doesn't like leaks about concentric. | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
I'm sure the Government doesn't like the leaks about sustainability and | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
transformation plans in the NHS, but I am equally sure that the | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
Government isn't trying to clamp down on the effectiveness of the | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
media in our country to such an extent that we can't use leaks about | :20:16. | :20:26. | |
these sources. I can confirm that it is neither the intent nor our | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
understanding of the Bill as drafted to do those things, but it is our | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
intent to protect personal information. I'm glad it isn't the | :20:38. | :20:46. | |
Minister's intent, but the media lawyers Association also highlighted | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
that they thought there was a problem in their written evidence. | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
So if the Minister wants to avoid his colleagues in another place | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
having to have this debate again in two months' time, perhaps he could | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
write to me a full explanation of what he thinks is going on. At the | :21:06. | :21:11. | |
moment, I think there might be a problem in the Bill in this respect. | :21:12. | :21:20. | |
I am giving way! In very simple terms, where is the public interest | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
defence for a journalist? That is the question. The honourable member | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
puts it very well. We have the official secrets act. We have libel | :21:32. | :21:37. | |
laws and lots of protections. We don't need any tighter legal | :21:38. | :21:43. | |
criminalisation on the statute book. Order. We have one hour and one | :21:44. | :21:49. | |
minute left in this debate. A lot of people want to speak, and I suspect | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
that people also wish to have answers from the Minister. I | :21:54. | :21:58. | |
wouldn't like to truncate his contribution to the debate. I cannot | :21:59. | :22:04. | |
put on a time limit. I can only ask for courtesy from one member to | :22:05. | :22:09. | |
another and short speeches. I am not suggesting that speeches so far have | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
been too long. But speak as quickly as you can. Thank you very much. I | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
would like to address new clause 30 one. Before I do, I would like to | :22:22. | :22:27. | |
congratulate the member for Washington and Sunderland West for | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
her campaign over many years to deal with abuses in the secondary | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
ticketing market. And the member for Selby and Ensley as well who took up | :22:37. | :22:39. | |
this issue strongly on the Bill committee. The amendment we are | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
discussing is the same as the amendment he tabled for discussion | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
at the Bill committee. Such was the power of his argument, he persuaded | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
the member for Cardiff West to pursue this at report stage. I am | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
grateful to him as well, the Shadow minister, for agreeing that Select | :23:01. | :23:03. | |
Committee could discuss this at report stage. | :23:04. | :23:11. | |
We were so concerned about the use of these computer programmes to | :23:12. | :23:20. | |
harvest tickets from the primary ticket market in large quantities | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
that we wanted to look at this at committee. In the period between the | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
report stage and the Bill committee recalled in a number of | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
representatives from the music industry, from the primary and | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
secondary ticketing markets and experts in the industry to discuss | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
this problem, and that left us with a very clear view that there are | :23:40. | :23:42. | |
major abuses in the ticketing market. The victims of those abusers | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
are the consumers, the man and woman in the street who want to go and see | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
their favourite performers and concerts and have no chance of | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
getting those tickets. When we have computer programmes that are used to | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
harvest thousands of tickets immediately when they go on sale and | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
immediately to transfer those on to other websites where they can be | :24:06. | :24:08. | |
bought but only at inflated prices. We saw an example that the member | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
for High Peak cited in committee of a Phil Collins concert at the Albert | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
Hall for next June, where there are no tickets available on Ticketmaster | :24:21. | :24:27. | |
but on their secondary site there were tickets available for many | :24:28. | :24:30. | |
times the value of the tickets, making a huge margin of a handling | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
fee for the secondary site. These Arctic is that the venue itself had | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
said that the tickets were not for resale. This is going on on a | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
day-to-day basis and it is clearly a problem. We are keen to hear from | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
people in the secondary market to felt that it was not their | :24:48. | :24:50. | |
responsibility to police tickets go on sale, but that concert tickets | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
are routinely sold without the information required under the | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
consumer protection legislation. It should identify the seller the | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
ticket and deceit and growing number so that it can be identified by the | :25:04. | :25:10. | |
venue. These are routine abuses. -- the seat and wrote number. I just | :25:11. | :25:18. | |
want at this moment to place on record that I attended, I was | :25:19. | :25:25. | |
pleased to be able to attend and witness the Select Committee hearing | :25:26. | :25:31. | |
that day and it showed Select Committee work at its best. I | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
witnessed some of the excellent questioning of the secondary market | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
on those issues around policing of their sites and I think you did | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
sterling work and I want to commend him on the floor of the House for | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
doing so. On half of the committee I am very grateful to the honourable | :25:50. | :25:53. | |
lady for her words. I was certainly shocked at some of the things I | :25:54. | :26:00. | |
heard. What is clear is that... I just want to ask the chairman and | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
secretary if in amongst this penetrating questioning if anybody | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
asked the people and secondary ticketing why they were not | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
installing some of the existing safeguards which are already | :26:15. | :26:18. | |
available and are successfully used in some sporting and artistic events | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
and entertainment events already and, if those exist, why do they | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
expect us here to install a legislative red tape every solution | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
to something which they could solve themselves and could have sold | :26:34. | :26:35. | |
themselves several years ago, if they cared? Those issues were | :26:36. | :26:43. | |
covered in the Select Committee hearing and a transcript is all to | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
see. But there are some venues have introduced technology for direct | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
sale. It can work, our response to this crisis in the ticking to be, | :26:57. | :27:01. | |
solve it yourself, too many consumers, would be an acceptable | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
and would place large cost burdens on venues of smaller sizes that | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
would be unfair. This does not just affect the big blockbuster events at | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
the O2 or the Royal Albert Hall, it is small venues around the country, | :27:15. | :27:20. | |
I saw tickets at the Winter Gardens in Margate that were being sold at | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
34 times the value on a secondary market. This is affecting all sorts | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
of things. It is not in the interests of the primary ticketing | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
sites to support or report it, because they are in the secondary | :27:34. | :27:35. | |
sites which are making massive profits. If you look at the profits | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
of these businesses, the profit growth in the secondary sites, it is | :27:41. | :27:49. | |
30, 40% per year. They, some of them sell more tickets through the | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
primary market but they are making very large profits through the | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
secondary market. I completely agree with the chairman of the Select | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
Committee on the diagnosis of the problem. Everyone here shares the | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
sense of injustice and iniquity he describes. My concern is there are a | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
group of people out there, not just the punters who want to go to see | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
these events but also the talent themselves, the musicians, actors, | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
sports men and women who are the people were losing out because they | :28:20. | :28:21. | |
are getting less money for the initial ticket site, ticket sales, | :28:22. | :28:25. | |
which are then sold on at inflated value. They and punters could all | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
win if more of that value was captured for the talent and punters | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
were able to pay less, therefore there is a huge group of interest | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
here on both sides to cut out the middleman and I don't see why they | :28:42. | :28:48. | |
are not doing it. It is in the interest of many different | :28:49. | :28:50. | |
stakeholders in this industry to do that but at the moment it is not | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
happening across the board. It happens at some of the big events | :28:54. | :28:56. | |
and artists who have been able to introduce these measures but it has | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
been difficult to do, uniformly. Why is it that primary ticketing sites | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
don't report the use of bots in a massed weight to the authorities, | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
and report suspicious behaviour? It is easy to do, we heard in evidence | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
of the committee but the people who are their best but an biggest | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
customers are favourable terms of trade. They have favourable terms of | :29:19. | :29:22. | |
trade with the people that are selling in bulk quantities of vast | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
numbers of tickets. It is easy to identify who they are and would be | :29:27. | :29:29. | |
easy to report that they were suspicious that somebody selling | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
thousands of tickets minutes after the sale in the primary ticketing | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
sites was able to do it back quickly. They must be using bots | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
technology but they do not report it. And you must ask that why that | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
is? Is it because they are making too much money out of it? To the | :29:46. | :29:54. | |
venue 's records of the events in Northern Ireland were the four | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
people were able to have online sales, tickets were sold and people | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
had to queue to ensure a better opportunity. Does the honourable | :30:05. | :30:11. | |
gentleman feel, that the industry needs regulated and this is the | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
place to do it, if they can't do at their self then let's do it here. I | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
will try to limit my remarks because I know that other people want to | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
speak on the subject. He is right. We have proposed in the amendment a | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
way of doing it to control the bots. The government is in discussions | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
with the industry. They might find there is a better solution to | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
achieve the same end but it is incumbent on This Place to achieve | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
this, and not just because a secondary market rips off the | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
consumer. Who would seek to make money selling tickets in this way? | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
The artists came in front of the committee and said that they believe | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
criminal gangs linked to paramilitary organisations in | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
Ireland are making money through the secondary ticketing market. It is | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
important that we regulate this, not just for the consumer but to clamp | :31:03. | :31:07. | |
down on criminal elements who make money through this technology and if | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
we can do that, we will be doing the country a service. I will try and | :31:11. | :31:18. | |
briefly comment on some clauses because I am aware of speakers that | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
want to come in. Can I commend the member for Cardiff West for an | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
excellent one through and some excellent ideas? That only the | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
government was in listening mode rather than broadcast. First of all, | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
I would like to wholeheartedly agree with him on new clause eight, in | :31:39. | :31:48. | |
relation to over 75 licenses. It was a political decision. We have an | :31:49. | :31:53. | |
ageing population. Rising cases of loneliness experienced by the | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
elderly. This is a wealth of policy. Why would you pass, outsource, a | :31:59. | :32:07. | |
welder policy to an external body like the BBC? The answer came back, | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
the BBC wanted, it is part of a financial settlement. That doesn't | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
make it right. The reality is, this is an abdication of responsibility, | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
and outsourcing of bad news for the future. I will happily give way. | :32:23. | :32:29. | |
Surely the BBC did not really want this, it was just that they said | :32:30. | :32:31. | |
they wanted it because they wanted a good deal for their charter. I | :32:32. | :32:38. | |
happen to agree. I think this is a case of, we got so worried about out | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
what they settlement would be, let's just accept the offer that is on the | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
table for fear of what might happen. I think there is a cross-party | :32:49. | :32:56. | |
support for this new clause. He is well deserving of his TV licence | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
when he gets older naff! -- cold enough. If fully support new clause | :33:04. | :33:12. | |
eight and other revisions in relation to the BBC new clause, 17 | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
and 18. If we believe in public service broadcasting, the way to | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
protect it is to cherish it, look after it, to ensure that its | :33:21. | :33:26. | |
listings appear as technology evolves and not to give it a huge | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
liability for a deeply unpopular decision in the future. New clause | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
15. It was interesting to see the current and former Secretary of | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
State here, which I largely concur with. I am very supportive of the | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
idea of pushing something further in this regard in terms of search | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
engines, but also very conscious there is a dialogue here between two | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
parties that both have a stake in something. It is interesting he is | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
now coming round to the idea of some legislative intervention. What we | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
would look for from the new front bench is what and when? What do you | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
expect to see in terms of movement, before you would take this step to | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
say, we're going to have to legislate? We touched on this in | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
committee but what and when, what would be the trigger to say that | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
there's a point when we are going to have to intervene, because we're not | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
far enough? In terms of the digital ticketing I think it has already | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
been well discussed, although if somebody is behaving illegally by | :34:40. | :34:42. | |
going into a shop and buying all the produce and then selling it in a way | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
that is not intended, the answer is not necessarily security, the answer | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
is, let's make it illegal. I get the honourable gentleman's point. Let's | :34:56. | :34:57. | |
make this illegal and drive this behaviour out, because it is not in | :34:58. | :35:08. | |
any way acceptable. The US philosopher said of the great idea | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
begins as a movement, becomes a business and eventually degenerates | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
into a racket. That is the reality of fan to fan ticket exchange which | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
has led to rampant touting. The final idea I would touch on, and I | :35:23. | :35:27. | |
commend the Labour front bench for this valiant effort through new | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
clauses such as new clause five, to try and rescue section five of the | :35:34. | :35:39. | |
bill. We saw from the evidence sessions, the two days which were | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
damning of the approach being taken to data sharing or data access and | :35:46. | :35:51. | |
as it has gone a long government has tried to give us a little bit more | :35:52. | :35:54. | |
information and has apply sticking plasters here and there, but nothing | :35:55. | :35:59. | |
that has convinced me that they have learned from when someone try to buy | :36:00. | :36:07. | |
bulk data of people receiving tax credits, and it led to some of the | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
most vulnerable in society being forced into debt and it had other | :36:13. | :36:19. | |
more severe consequences. I remain unconvinced that the government is | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
heading in the right direction here. There is an inherent paternalism | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
from the government. Don't you worry, a pat on the head, you will | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
be fine, trust us. I'm sorry, but when it comes to protecting | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
people'sdata, we should be looking at the Estonian model which puts the | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
Citizen at the Centre. We should be open. Every time my data is shared, | :36:42. | :36:47. | |
I should be notified. We should not hide this. Right at the start of all | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
of the evidence in this, people have said data sharing is a good thing, | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
but you absolutely need to earn and retain public trust, and I see very | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
little evidence that the government understands that and is willing to | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
do anything other than learning the hard way by making mistakes, and I | :37:09. | :37:15. | |
look forward with trepidation as various data breaches emerge. I | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
would urge the government to consider this whole section, to | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
remove it from the bill and revisit it once they have Ashley Donna | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
proper job. The Minister, Mr Matt Hancox. Thank you very much, Madam | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
Deputy Speaker. I rise to answer the points made so far and I hope there | :37:35. | :37:38. | |
will be time enough afterwards for some of those of us who still want | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
to speak, to do so. We have had a broad ranging debate on these events | :37:43. | :37:50. | |
and I will speak as quickly as I can take as many interventions as I can | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
to answer questions. There are 36 proposed closers and amendments in | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
this group and I propose to address each in turn, broadly in that order. | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
New clause 15 proposes the government take power to have code | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
of conduct on search engines to dictate how they should work to | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
prevent copyright infringement. This was a new clause proposed in | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
committee and I'd like to take the chance to update the house on | :38:17. | :38:22. | |
progress. Since then, the minister for intellectual property has | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
chaired a further round table between search engines and | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
representatives of the creative industries. As my honourable friend | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
from Maldon said, that group is making progress, some progress, | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
towards agreeing an outlying code of practice. But much more needs to be | :38:38. | :38:49. | |
done. Following the Round Table, a revised draft code will be prepared | :38:50. | :38:52. | |
for consideration by the IPO before the next meeting on 10th of January. | :38:53. | :38:53. | |
Our position is that online platforms must act responsibly and | :38:54. | :38:57. | |
work with rights holders to enforce rights. We need to get this right | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
and we don't rule out legislation but given the progress being made, | :39:02. | :39:05. | |
we believe this won't necessarily be the right time for a legislative | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
intervention. We also discussed new clause 30 row set out the range of | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
criminal provisions that applied to the sale and use of devices that | :39:17. | :39:22. | |
infringe copyright, the IP TV devices that my right honourable | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
friend also spoke about. There are a number of investigations pending | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
across the country. And pending prosecutions relying on a number of | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
offences. I'm very sympathetic to this clause but it doesn't in and of | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
itself offer any greater legislative protection to rights owners than the | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
existing offences that target this type of behaviour. So my proposal is | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
that if the existing legal provisions are shown to be deficient | :39:53. | :39:57. | |
when the pending prosecutions have concluded, then we will bring | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
forward proposals for legislation. Turning to new clause 16, it is | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
another of the very helpful proposals from the front bench | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
opposite to deliver on a commitment made in the Conservative party | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
manifesto, this time on e-book lending. I am glad this has received | :40:16. | :40:25. | |
a great deal of support. Of course, we agree that authors should be | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
recognised by ensuring compensation for authors with copyright. I need | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
to correct an omission, that I should have mentioned that | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
committee. I'd like to belatedly to declare a potential interest or I | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
hope that I can declare an interest because I have a book that is | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
available for borrowing in this way, but I have no idea if it has ever | :40:52. | :40:59. | |
been borrowed. As I said that committee, we have been carefully | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
considering options to deliver the manifesto commitment. We had to wait | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
until the conclusion of a court case which ended earlier this month | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
before setting out the proposals and today I can confirm we intend to | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
legislate to extend the Public lending Right to include remote | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
lending of e-books. We need to get this right and ensure any changes | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
are compatible with the Copyright directive and we will look forward | :41:22. | :41:27. | |
to bringing forward legislation as soon as is. Turning to new clause | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
six, on broadcasting, this was also considered on committee, is about | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
subtitles on video on demand. As I said in committee, we are keen to | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
address this shortcoming and we want to ensure the requirements that are | :41:42. | :41:46. | |
placed on on demand programme services providers are appropriate | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
and proportion. Since then, we've discussed how best to increase the | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
use of subtitles in video on demand with charities, broadcasters, Ofcom | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
and others, and we've worked further on the best way to address concerns. | :41:59. | :42:07. | |
By working collaboratively, I wish that there be a resolution in the | :42:08. | :42:15. | |
other place. Turning to new clause eight, which we discussed in length | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
at committee on TV licence fee concessions. On this side of the | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
house, we are clear. We support the free TV licence for the over 75s, we | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
are committed to it in our manifesto and we are glad it is protected as | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
part of the Charter that has been debated extensively in this house | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
delivering on our manifesto commitment. This new clause attempts | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
to unpick that settlement and in so doing undermine the stability of the | :42:44. | :42:50. | |
BBC. This funding settlement which this new clause undermines was | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
described by the director-general of the BBC as a strong deal for the BBC | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
and one that gives us financial stability. I'll give way. Surely, | :43:00. | :43:09. | |
asking the other BBC licence payers, staff and programmers inside the BBC | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
to pay for what is a welfare benefits, surely, that is nonsense. | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
The point is that this is not a welfare benefit. This is about | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
funding policy. The BBC themselves asked for this policy to be | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
determined by the BBC. The Shadow Secretary of State himself said, and | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
I quote, the charter provides the BBC with the funding and security | :43:34. | :43:39. | |
needs. As part of that security it needs, as he put it, we kept this in | :43:40. | :43:43. | |
this Parliament, the free TV licence. Given the BBC itself has | :43:44. | :43:52. | |
asked for it, and this morning the BBC said the overall funding | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
settlement reached with the government provides the financial | :43:56. | :43:58. | |
stability for a strong, creative BBC, the BBC is concerned this | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
amendment could reopen the whole deal and make the BBC worse off. We | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
have an 11 year charter renewal, a strong financial settlement, and | :44:08. | :44:17. | |
clause requested by the BBC, and a new clause now proposed that in the | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
BBC's words could make the BBC worse. Supporting new clause eight | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
would undermine the BBC, its finances, is expressly against the | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
wishes of the BBC, and I don't there's anyone supporting this | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
measure, otherwise they will have to attempt this -- explain why they | :44:36. | :44:44. | |
want to undermine the BBC. Turning to broadcasting prominence. We | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
consulted on this in the spring. In committee, the point we reached was | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
that a detailed over prescriptive legislation would be a mistake, and | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
having not seen compelling evidence of harm to PSP, we decided not to | :44:58. | :45:06. | |
not to extend the EPG regime for PSBs for on demand. When PSPs make | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
excellent content, audiences follow. On broadcasting finally, new clause | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
18 on listed events was also discussed. I've seen no evidence | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
that the current regime is not under threat. We won't let it be under | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
threat. The range of our most loved and cherished sporting events will | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
remain on free to air channels. Even so, it would be undesirable if there | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
were a problem to fix it this way because the proposed new clause | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
would lock in incumbents positions, and since the requirement to be | :45:41. | :45:50. | |
watched by 90% of the population would narrow the number of channels | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
that would qualify considerably. I suggest that the problem doesn't | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
arise. If it arises, we would legislate, but this would not be the | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
way that we would do it. Moving on, if I may, we've shown in this bill | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
that we are open to be persuaded by good argument. And we've tabled | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
government amendments 20, 21 and 22 to ensure Ofcom is able to enforce | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
requests for information from third parties in relation to its new | :46:17. | :46:20. | |
functions as regulator of the BBC. I hope they have broad support. I want | :46:21. | :46:26. | |
to turn to ticketing. Much discussed. New clause 30 16 to deal | :46:27. | :46:32. | |
with bots that harvest tickets for resale on to the secondary market. | :46:33. | :46:36. | |
We've heard very powerful explanations on the scale of the | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
problem and its breadth, and I can confirm that I myself had great | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
difficulty in buying Paul Simon tickets and failed to buy them | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
despite being there with my finger hovering on my mouse, the moment | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
they went on sale. Instead, I had to buy them at a much greater price in | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
the secondary market. They were worth every penny but this makes the | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
point that my honourable friend from Weston-Super-Mare makes. The gap | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
being exploited here is between that which the artist wants to sell their | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
tickets at and the amount that they represent in true value to the | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
customer because I was still happy to pay hundreds of pounds for my | :47:16. | :47:19. | |
ticket, but the point is they were meant to be on sale for ?75 so that | :47:20. | :47:27. | |
everybody could get them. So I am persuaded by the arguments here. We | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
are holding a round table on Wednesday to discuss the best way to | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
tackle the problem and the government will give full | :47:36. | :47:37. | |
consideration to what is said that these round tables in Parliament and | :47:38. | :47:47. | |
in the report. And I want to pay tribute to my honourable friend from | :47:48. | :47:56. | |
Selby who has made a huge amount of the running for this and made the | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
argument powerfully, and as has been said the Olympics showed that this | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
can be done. So,... I will give way. I am enormously reassured. I'm not | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
normally reassured by the advent of a round table but I am in this case | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
because the minister is a very persuasive man so I am sure he will | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
have around that table representatives from the sportsman | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
's agents groups, from the Equity actors union, and from all sorts, | :48:24. | :48:30. | |
perhaps UK music and others. The people who represent the talent | :48:31. | :48:32. | |
currently ripped off because they are only getting the face value of | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
these tickets when they go on sale when they are bought by bots, not | :48:36. | :48:41. | |
the secondary value. They have the interest here so that they get the | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
Llodra portion of the eventual value and not ripping off the customers, | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
too. We have representatives of all sides, including my honourable | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
friend from Selby. Although I'm not sure that will reassure my | :48:56. | :48:57. | |
honourable friend from Weston-Super-Mare. While we would | :48:58. | :49:03. | |
not want to close down the secondary market for tickets altogether and | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
clearly the automatic harvesting of tickets sold below market price that | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
fans can afford them, that automatic harvesting for resale at a higher | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
value is wrong. So I want to build a bridge over troubled waters... | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
Listen to the points made at the round table and bring forward | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
legislation if this is found to be necessary in this bill. On digital | :49:27. | :49:36. | |
government. On new clause 19, amendment three, to the data sharing | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
powers that we turn to on education and health. First, amendment three | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
and new clause 19 which concerned data-sharing... They address the | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
same issue from the opposite end. It is a bit of a surprise to find them | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
submitted by the same people. People's health and education data | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
can both be incredibly powerful and improving lives, but also is very | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
sensitive and needs to be very carefully handled. These two propose | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
changes from the opposition, in then we have both amendments to open up | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
data-sharing and to close it down. And I think this is slightly | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
confused but neither of these amendments are necessary because the | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
concerns expressed at the root of each are already expressed in the | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
bill. New clause 19 six to open up more data-sharing in education. It | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
is good to see the directional travel opened up by the bench | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
opposite because data-sharing can improve people's lives. For | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
instance, by making sure we identify better eligibility for free school | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
meals. I recognise the honourable member from Birkenhead who has made | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
this argument strongly. It is a laudable aim but it is already | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
provided for by the DFE's electronic checking system. And, indeed, this | :51:01. | :51:09. | |
bill sets out how areas of data-sharing can be expanded in | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
secondary regulation in due course. I would hope to work... I will give | :51:14. | :51:21. | |
way. Might the Minister tell us what is in the bill to make those local | :51:22. | :51:26. | |
authorities who seemed to have no interest in sharing data to get the | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
numbers of free school dinner children and premiums up to actually | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
act in those children's interests? It is true that the proposals in | :51:36. | :51:40. | |
this bill are permissive rather than requiring. I would be concerned to | :51:41. | :51:50. | |
move to requiring sharing data because of the sensitivity of data, | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
especially when it isn't a non-ISA in this space, and it wouldn't be, | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
if the aim is to find individual children who have eligibility for | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
free school meals. And I'd be concerned about requiring | :52:04. | :52:09. | |
data-sharing because... Because you want to make sure the person | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
receiving the data has the systems to be able to handle it. But clarity | :52:14. | :52:22. | |
around the law being... Straightforwardly clear that that | :52:23. | :52:26. | |
data-sharing is permitted is incredibly important because then it | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
removes the reason not to share the data. In Wirral, the numbers of | :52:30. | :52:37. | |
families who had the right to opt out, they could be listed on less | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
than one hand. There's actually quite a willingness for data to be | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
shared, for schools and children to benefit. I'm glad there is | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
willingness for that data to be shared because I share with him the | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
passion for improving... And the use of this data to improve people's | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
lives in the Wirral and elsewhere. Since that passion exists, I should | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
hope that the clarity that is being borne by this debate, not least, can | :53:08. | :53:12. | |
ensure that the data is indeed shared. | :53:13. | :53:24. | |
This clarity is supported by the Data Protection Act. The Act rightly | :53:25. | :53:32. | |
enjoys a very broad consensus of support. And indeed we are | :53:33. | :53:38. | |
strengthening in this build the sanctioning and purposeful Riyadh | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
advocation of data to a criminal sanction as was brought up some | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
concerns on the detail of that by the member opposite. These | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
protections are important and I think they strike the right balance. | :53:52. | :53:59. | |
By contrast, new clause 19 seeks to, whilst new clause 19 seeks to | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
strengthen data sharing, Amendment three seeks to weaken it and put | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
barriers in it. Health bodies in England are not within the scope of | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
the public service delivering power. For the rest of the UK, health is | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
devolved, and the Labour administration in Wales and the SNP | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
in Scotland has signalled they will seek the consent of their | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
legislators on the grounds that this amendment is not made. Where the | :54:25. | :54:30. | |
Labour Party is in government in Wales and the SNP and government in | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
Scotland, they support this sort of data-sharing precisely for the | :54:35. | :54:36. | |
reasons that the member for Birkenhead sets out. I would seek to | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
persuade them not to divide the House on these matters but rather to | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
be reassured that we both value the data sharing but also revalue its | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
protection and its safety and its safekeeping. Therefore I would urge | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
members on all sides to resist these amendments. Turning to new clause | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
five, this clause would impose obligations on organisations to | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
report data breaches. This has already been mentioned and is | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
covered in the general data protection regulation coming into | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
force in May 2018, so it isn't necessarily to legislate here. | :55:15. | :55:20. | |
Turning to new clause 11, which is on data sharing registers, part five | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
of the bill includes a number of commitments to transparency and | :55:25. | :55:26. | |
proportionality in disclosing information about public | :55:27. | :55:32. | |
authorities, and we are committed to the transparency of information | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
shared on the part five, which is what I think the intention of this | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
amendment is aimed at. There's a number of specific problems with new | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
clause 11, not least that setting this requirement in primary | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
legislation reduces the flexibility to learn from and adapt to the | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
consequences of publishing a register. New clause 12 requires the | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
government commissioned an independent review of the collective | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
use of data by government and commercial organisations, the Royal | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
Society in British Academy are undertaking exactly that sort of | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
review to consider the ethical and legal frameworks needed in the UK as | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
data technology advances. I agree with the point made by the member | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
opposite, that it is important that we develop the ethical and legal | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
frameworks around this to make sure that they are ahead, in the use of | :56:19. | :56:25. | |
data and data science, rather than behind it, to make sure that we can | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
bring the public with us, and we'll consider the findings of these | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
reviews when they are published. On new clause 23, which was tabled by | :56:33. | :56:42. | |
played country, we are firmly committed to ensuring that the needs | :56:43. | :56:52. | |
of Welsh language speakers are met -- Plaid Cymru. And they are in the | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
Wales Office have been discussing with the Welsh language commissioner | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
how they can help departments meet their requirements under the Welsh | :57:05. | :57:19. | |
language schemes. HE SPEAKS WELSH. I support strongly the Welsh language. | :57:20. | :57:24. | |
I think that is a rough translation! Turning to amendments 19, they | :57:25. | :57:31. | |
require the review the fraud and debt chapters in 45-53 that require | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
the relevant minister to review these powers. These are consistent | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
with the devolution settlement to ensure appropriate consent for any | :57:40. | :57:44. | |
proposed changes is sought from the affected territories. And finally, | :57:45. | :57:52. | |
I'm going to move on to the illicit online trade and Internet sales of | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
counterfeit electrical appliances. We take this very seriously and the | :57:56. | :58:01. | |
intellectual property office has recently published its IP | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
enforcement strategy for the next four years which I think it takes | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
into account the concerns raised in their closets. Before the minister | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
sits down, did he commit to writing to me about the amendments that I | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
put down? I will happily write on the detail of the points about the | :58:21. | :58:27. | |
concerns which I think are unfounded, that we want to ensure | :58:28. | :58:35. | |
our, that journalists might report by increasing the criminal penalty | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
for the intentional disclosure of information in the data sharing | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
powers, which are intended for the protection of data especially around | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
the bulk data transfer around the system rather than to mitigate | :58:49. | :58:55. | |
against whistle-blowing of the type she describes. Finally, I want to | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
turn to new clause 34 from the honourable member for Boston. I | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
appreciate the intent behind the clause. The media landscape is | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
changing rapidly and this has impacted a wide variety of sectors | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
including news, but ensuring that citizens have access to a Fulbright | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
of news sources is essential and it is vital that the media is vibrant | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
and sustainable. There was a huge challenge of maintaining | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
high-quality journalism and, increasingly, advertising revenues | :59:26. | :59:28. | |
go to the platform but the costs call on the content provider or the | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
newspaper. This is something the government is engaged in looking at | :59:34. | :59:36. | |
and I am meeting the news media Association later this week to | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
discuss this very issue. Ofcom rubbish is an annual report on News | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
consumption across the UK, including the sources and platforms used in | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
news consumption and the role of intermediaries like Facebook and | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
Google. They undertake ad hoc reviews were possible and we will | :59:51. | :59:56. | |
explore where this is an area where such a review is needed, so while | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
acknowledging the importance of the issue, I would urge My Honourable | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
Friend, who has a lot of experience in this area, to work with us under | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
existing powers to seek a solution, and with that I would ask all | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
honourable members to withdraw their amendments and support the | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
government's. Order, we have 20 given was left in this debate and | :00:18. | :00:22. | |
ten people who wish to speak. That's two minutes each. Katie Breen. I | :00:23. | :00:30. | |
want briefly to address the Minister was my comments on new clause six | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
and I welcome his indication that he thought that progress would be made | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
when the bill proceeds to the House of Lords. May I ask in making that | :00:38. | :00:42. | |
statement that he encourages his colleagues in the Other Place first | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
of all to take a positive and inclusive approach to ensuring | :00:47. | :00:54. | |
accessibility of OnDemand services. The new clause drafted by my Right | :00:55. | :01:02. | |
Honourable Friends suggests a of considerations that might be taken | :01:03. | :01:06. | |
into account in sub-clause for and I have these will be interpreted in | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
the most generous and ambitious manner possible if they inform the | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
government's thinking and I will give way to My Honourable Friend. | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
Like her, I welcome the commitment of the Minister to return to this in | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
the Other Place, but that she agree with me that it might be helpful if | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
the Minister was able to meet with the apartment group on deafness to | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
have made the subtitling campaign one of their top priorities for this | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
year? Which takes me to my second point, that the Minister has | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
indicated that discussions have taken place with disability | :01:42. | :01:43. | |
organisations, and it is vital that we make these online OnDemand | :01:44. | :01:49. | |
services accessible and that they are taken in a co-production manner, | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
and that this ability groups are part of the way that these services | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
are designed and that the government makes progress on this matter. The | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
final point I want to make is to encourage the Minister and his | :02:01. | :02:03. | |
colleagues also do think big about where this is an opportunity to take | :02:04. | :02:08. | |
forward the use of British sign language in broadcast and online | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
OnDemand services. There is the opportunity to offer sign services | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
and they hope the Minster might be willing to investigate just how far | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
that can be taken in this particular context. -- the Minister. I am | :02:22. | :02:32. | |
extremely grateful to the honourable member for Washington in Sunderland | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
for the work she has done on this issue. I would like to talk to, | :02:36. | :02:43. | |
about new clause 31, incredibly important, and she has done an | :02:44. | :02:47. | |
incredible amount of work so let's thank the members opposite, the | :02:48. | :02:49. | |
member for Sheffield Healy and Cardiff West for allowing the | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
committee to table this amendment here today. I would like to thank | :02:54. | :03:00. | |
the Minister, the member for Suffolk West, whose words a few moments ago | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
have been incredibly encouraging that government is prepared to take | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
action to outlaw bots, if necessary following the meeting which will | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
happen later this week. I shall be at that meeting. I am grateful for | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
the invitation. Hopefully I will be allowed my tuppence worth. It is | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
important we get all of these players involved. I want to mention, | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
there are countless examples of where this racket is going on in the | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
music business. We have heard about full Collins, Black Sabbath, and my | :03:35. | :03:44. | |
example try to make a dash to buy tickets for Green Day made it to | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
Prime Minister's Questions. I'm not sure of the Prime Minister is a fan | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
of Green Day but if she did go to a concert she would have the time of | :03:53. | :03:58. | |
her life! It also affects all sorts of other marketplaces. Theatre. | :03:59. | :04:01. | |
Today we met with Sonia Friedman, the producer of Harry Potter and the | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
first child, who told me that 60,000 tickets were released last week -- | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
the cursed child, and thousands of these tickets, because of bots ended | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
up on the secondary market at hugely inflated prices. This is clearly | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
unacceptable. Just to conclude, I do hope that we can get somewhere, | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
following the meeting on Wednesday, and also, we are keen to see the | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
government's report and the response to the Waterson report, which I'm | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
sure we'll follow that meeting. It was interesting to note at our | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
Select Committee inquiry that Professor Waterson also agreed that | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
action to outlaw ticket bots could be a solution as well. This is very | :04:48. | :04:54. | |
encouraging. I would like to thank the Minister in terms of organising | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
that meeting and the Secretary of State. I am being wound up, so I | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
hope everyone else gets a chance to chip in. Thank you so much. I'd like | :05:03. | :05:11. | |
to speak or new clause 24 which stands in my name and that of other | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
honourable friends and members. The charity, safety first is calling the | :05:17. | :05:28. | |
to legally require to notify people selling fake electricals to Trading | :05:29. | :05:31. | |
Standards and the police. It is estimated 60% of fake electrical | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
goods are now being sold online. Much of the legislation around the | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
sale of counterfeit goods is over 20 years old and we need to remind | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
people that in this digital age, part of it simply may not be fit for | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
purpose. Sales of dodgy electrical goods are ascending rather rapidly. | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
Research found that around 2.5 million adults have purchased | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
counterfeit electrical products in the last 12 months. That is double | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
the number of people that reported purchasing a fake in the previous | :05:59. | :06:03. | |
year. Not all counterfeit electricals may be of a substandard | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
quality. Many of them carry a substantial risk. People may view | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
the state has been harmless in the same way that they might consider a | :06:12. | :06:16. | |
counterfeit pair of sunglasses to be, but the fact of the matter is, | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
they can prove to be quite deadly. These products have the potential to | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
deliver a fatal electric shock. As well as the safety implications, we | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
must be mindful of the revenue that sales of these goods are generating | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
which, in the UK, is thought to be worth more than ?1.3 billion per | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
year, and a large portion of this, an estimated 900 million, is thought | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
to help fund organised crime. Many people who buy fake electrical goods | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
do so without realising it and, unwittingly, they are placing their | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
families, friends and neighbours at risk. Because they are often selling | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
through reputable online marketplaces, vendors enjoy an | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
almost unquestioned credibility giving customers confidence in their | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
purchase. Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to finish up by asking | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
the government to take these points into account, an order for us to | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
begin addressing this problem and to perhaps begin to put some of the | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
responsibility on the websites which enable this black market trade. I | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
support the Minister's response to new clause six. On new clause eight, | :07:24. | :07:34. | |
on page 76, 18 times in the bill the clause number is the same as the | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
page number, I think the point here is that neither the BBC nor | :07:42. | :07:48. | |
government consulted backbenchers. It was Parliament who agreed the | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
concession in 2001 for the over 75 is. The cost of ?750 million. If you | :07:52. | :07:59. | |
compare it with the cost of local radio at 150 million, Radio 4, 90 | :08:00. | :08:05. | |
million, BBC Four, 40 9 million, CBBC and CBeebies at 97 million, | :08:06. | :08:09. | |
that comes to about 340 million. If you double that you still don't | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
approach the cost of their so-called concession. There is a letter in the | :08:14. | :08:18. | |
Times today by Mr Jon Moss who says that many people over 75 can afford | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
either to pay tax or to have the concession gone and to argue, but if | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
you have a serious discussion you say what are the other ways in which | :08:28. | :08:30. | |
the BBC can have the concession money and allow the flexibility of | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
changing what the concession is? My view is that the Parliament and the | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
government bring in the concession, it should be big enough to make a | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
change afterwards. That is an issue that can be discussed. The | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
government are not keen on this, this is my view and I think it is | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
one that the government ought to hold two as well. The BBC may want | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
the whole thing and states, but it is Parliament to set the bills, and | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
that is what we should be doing. My last point was to back up what I | :08:58. | :09:00. | |
said on the separate point about the public interest defence to | :09:01. | :09:01. | |
journalists. If I am a journalist and disclose | :09:02. | :09:11. | |
something that should not have been disclosed to me and I know it and it | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
is in the public interest, that to my mind should be defence against | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
any prosecution. I give way. Any public prosecution has to be in the | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
public interest. Although the public interest isn't in this bill that's | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
because the nature of public prosecution as it must be in the | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
public interest. Perhaps I can finish that might be the test of | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
whether the prosecution is brought but whether it is brought because of | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
public defence, the government ought to think again. Liz Sabo Roberts. | :09:45. | :09:53. | |
I'd like to speak to new clause 23, an amendment to ensure all services | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
provided by the UK government respects the right of the UK's | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
700,000 Welsh speakers to receive the service in our language. Digital | :10:03. | :10:12. | |
must not be something to request but available and welcoming to use. | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
Digital languages touches every area of communications, from social media | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
to digital government. The language isn't on the web, it can be said to | :10:20. | :10:26. | |
no longer exist for 21st-century communications. The Welsh language | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
commissioner has voiced criticism of the UK government for weakening the | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
Welsh language service since its launch. Over the past year I've seen | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
agencies of the Westminster government approaching us | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
complaining about the Cabinet office and saying it is now hampering their | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
work and they are concerned the strong bilingual services they put | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
in place have been hampered by gov.uk. There are issues and I would | :10:57. | :11:03. | |
urge the Minister considers our amendment and commit to ensuring an | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
interactive and user-friendly government services for Welsh | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
speakers on the same basis as that for English speakers. I'd like to | :11:15. | :11:21. | |
speak to clause 30 four. This isn't an attack on Facebook or Google. | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
This amendment asks Ofcom to examine whether the digital advertising | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
world has made our media possible to sustain. By that I mean today our | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
local papers, tomorrow I'll national papers and perhaps our TV networks. | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
I don't ask for a review because I don't think there's a single answer | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
or because I think this is not simply a moment in history where our | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
media must reinvent itself for a new age that may yet be brighter than | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
the last but the fact remains local and national papers are closing. I | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
don't think it's right for the government to stand idly by in the | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
knowledge this undesirable event is happening. I seek to plant in the | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
vast expanse of the minister's mind the idea the government should seek | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
to reassure itself and all our constituents that should our media | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
fall into a state of disrepair, we explored every possible option to | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
see whether a role should be found, whether that is exploring copyright | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
laws, whether that's exploring who owns the lucrative conversation | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
around the story so that a publisher and a platform now benefit equally. | :12:34. | :12:39. | |
I'd hope that we ensure that we don't lose the press that has kept | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
all of us on our toes for many years simply for lack of lack of having | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
looked for a solution. Sharon Hodges. Thank you. I want to speak | :12:49. | :12:57. | |
for my two or three minutes to support new clause 19 and new clause | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
30 one. I welcome these new clauses after my many years campaigning to | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
put fans first and also to improve access to free school meals. Hungry | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
children struggle to learn in school and fall behind their peers which is | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
why we need to improve the provision on offer and access to it. This | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
amendment will do just that. This policy proposal was brought forward | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
by the honourable member for Birkenhead earlier this year and | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
I've been fully supportive of this policy change and congratulate my | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
friend Mike on the front bench for bringing it forward. It estimated a | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
child on free school meals can save a family ?400 a year. And net their | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
school ?1300 for each child on free school meals currently. These | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
changes are simple and have been tried and tested. Two councils have | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
used data-sharing to improve take-up of free school meals and in turn | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
pupil premium in their burrows. I want to speak to clause 30 one. I | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
thoroughly welcome this new clause which has been brought forward by | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
the honourable member for Folkestone and hive on behalf of the culture, | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
media and sport select committee after their excellent short inquiry | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
into boxing ticketing touting, which I had the pleasure of witnessing | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
first-hand. Following the amendment that was first tabled by the | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
honourable member for Selby. This amendment will help us go one step | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
further to sorting this market out. But it isn't a silver bullet. Far | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
from it. What we need alongside it is the enforcement of legislation we | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
already have, such as the consumer rights act and the implementation of | :14:50. | :15:02. | |
the Waterson review. I have had examples and experienced it myself | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
of trying to buy tickets... And then already been sold out and then | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
finding them on the secondary market within minutes. I never relented and | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
refuse to buy tickets from touts. One can only deduce there is a | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
serious issue of how these tickets are getting onto the secondary | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
market so quickly and one way is definitely through the use of bots. | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
Fans and getting a fair crack at getting tickets, as the minister and | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
members of this house have also not had a fair crack at getting them. In | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
the last 18 months, there's been a massive escalation in the number of | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
tickets harvested by aggressive software used by touts, with these | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
attacks becoming more and more sophisticated. We've seen attacks | :15:49. | :15:50. | |
emanating from all over the world. The majority of them are | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
orchestrated by UK-based and UK resident touts. Some 30-50% of | :15:59. | :16:04. | |
tickets are harvested by aggressive software and immediately placed for | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
resale on resale sites. Despite the best efforts of the industry, who | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
have tried to police themselves and to bring in technical solutions, or | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
sell tickets through fan clubs, even these are attacks. Where tickets are | :16:22. | :16:26. | |
sold by ballot, there are ballot box. Where fan registration is | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
required, there are e-mail registration bots flooding the | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
system with thousands of false identities. There's not one way of | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
offering tickets for sale to the public for which there isn't a bot | :16:38. | :16:44. | |
out there to attack that system. The situation is deteriorating. Primary | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
ticket sites have had to detect an attack, examine the data, identified | :16:48. | :16:52. | |
the software used, reverse engineer it, then develop measures to prevent | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
a further attack. This process can take months. In the meantime, they | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
tout only has to pay a coder oversees a few hundred pounds to | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
develop a new bot to circumvent the new security features. And bots can | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
be coded to attack a specific ticketing system in as little as a | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
day. Whilst there is legislation in place through the computer misuse | :17:15. | :17:19. | |
act of 1990 which has brought applications which could address | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
bots, this is 25 years old and is yet to be tested. It's an arms race | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
at the primary -- that the primary ticket seller cannot win. The | :17:29. | :17:38. | |
consumer rights act is being flouted daily. The new deterrent is criminal | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
offence with appropriate punishment upon conviction. This amendment | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
would allow us that. I thank members who spoke only two minutes. The | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
courtesy has been noticed. They will get brownie points. There's plenty | :17:55. | :17:59. | |
of time left now for Mr Pete Wishart. I refer to my entry in the | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
registered members interests in wishing to record my work. This has | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
been a good evening, I'd say. The concessions that we've heard from | :18:12. | :18:13. | |
the government front bench are most definitely to be welcomed. Another | :18:14. | :18:21. | |
trend of the former Digital economy Bill. There are people still here | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
who bear the scars of that experience. This seems to be much | :18:26. | :18:29. | |
more convivial, this bill, this time. The member for Cardiff West, | :18:30. | :18:37. | |
there's no version of smoke on the water from the honourable member | :18:38. | :18:46. | |
from Maldon. The member for Cardiff West did a fantastic impersonation | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
of the member for Maldon doing that song. We have made real and | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
substantial progress and can I welcome the words from the Minister | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
on new clause 15. This was the one I wanted to address most firmly | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
because what we've got to remember when we look at search engines, | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
these are the pipes, the infrastructure, they create no | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
content of their own. Our creative industries are important, they are | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
driving the economy, and we are firing our economic growth on the | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
imagination of the people of this country, what a way to grow our | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
economy. It is right we make substantial progress on this and I | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
welcome it. I would say to the Minister, I've been listening | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
carefully, we need him to act, we need him to ensure that our artists, | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
creatives, inventors, these that produce wonderful content are | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
properly rewarded for the work they do. And we are all looking forward | :19:46. | :19:50. | |
to see the plans. On new clause 69, I have the pressure and privilege of | :19:51. | :19:57. | |
chairing a group, and we welcome the commitment from the government to | :19:58. | :20:07. | |
support lending. All those who support books have been asking for | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
this and we welcome the solid progress made on this. Lastly, Madam | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
Deputy Speaker, the progress that has been committed to ticket touts | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
and the whole issue of bots. I've been in this house for 15 years. One | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
of the first debates I was involved in in this house was about ticket | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
touting. There have been many members who have stood in this house | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
who have demanded solid action from this government when it comes to | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
this real and pernicious industry. This is something that corrodes our | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
live music scene. Live music is one of the major features and growing | :20:43. | :20:47. | |
parts of music across this country, it is something that artists | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
continue go on about and is something that we are addressing. I | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
pay tribute to the member for Selby, Sunderland, and also John Robertson | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
who chaired the all-party music group, whose stood here at this | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
point to ensuring we get something done. We have, again, made solid | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
progress on this. I think Madam Deputy Speaker, as we wind up, we've | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
heard this commitment from the Minister, he is prepared to make | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
progress on this. It is incumbent on all of us to ensure that we do get | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
these commitments brought into legislation. We've made very good | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
progress this evening, when it comes to this bill. We've got a bill which | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
me and my colleagues will support and we look forward to sing the | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
government honouring its commitments. Thank you. We have won | :21:40. | :21:53. | |
a whole minute to spare! Wow. Minister. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
since the Secretary of State is going to be opening the third | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
reading, may just take this opportunity to thank the house fall | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
of the comments, especially the front bench opposite, it's been a | :22:08. | :22:09. | |
collaborative effort, especially on the clauses we are discussing right | :22:10. | :22:15. | |
now. But also, if I may say so, more broadly. I hope this bill, as it | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
leaves this house, does so in better shape than it entered it. And that | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
it goes now for consideration in the other place. I want to thank | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
everybody involved, from the officials in the box, and to all the | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
stakeholders involved, and I beg the house to support the government. | :22:34. | :22:51. | |
On the contrary no... The noes have it, the noes have it. Kevin Brennan | :22:52. | :23:08. | |
to move new clause eight. The question is that the clause be added | :23:09. | :23:13. | |
to the bill. As many as of that opinion say I, contrary no. | :23:14. | :23:16. | |
Division, clear the lobby! Order, the question is that new | :23:17. | :24:53. | |
clause eight be added to the bill. As many as are of that opinion say | :24:54. | :25:02. | |
aye, contrary no tellers for the Ayes, Jeff Smith and nit-picking, | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
tellers for the Noes, Mark Smith and David Elliman. | :25:06. | :25:18. | |
Order, order. The Ayes to the right, 220. The Noes to the left, 267. Ayes | :25:19. | :34:37. | |
to the right, 220. The Noes to the left, 267. The noes have it, the | :34:38. | :34:48. | |
noes have it, unlock. I call the Minister to move government | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
amendments 20-22, and 4-19, formally. The question is amendments | :34:53. | :35:01. | |
20-22, and 4-19 be made. As many as are of that opinion say aye, | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
contrary no the Ayes have it, The Ayes have it. Consideration | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
completed, I will now suspend their House for no more than five minutes | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
in order to make a decision about certification. The division bells | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
will be wrong for two minutes before the House resumes following the | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
certification. The government will be tabling the appropriate consent | :35:25. | :35:30. | |
motion, copied. Copies of which will be available shortly in the vote | :35:31. | :35:37. | |
office and will be administrated by the doorkeepers. Are we ready, | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
folks? OK. Order, order. I can now inform the | :35:43. | :40:41. | |
house of my decision. For the purposes of standing order 83, I've | :40:42. | :40:50. | |
certified clause 85 of the Digital economy Bill as relating exclusively | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
to England and within devolved legislation competence. Copies of | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
the certificate are available in the Vote Office. Understanding order 83, | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
the consent motion is therefore required for the boat proceed. Does | :41:04. | :41:11. | |
the Minister intend to move? Move formally. Just a nod would have done | :41:12. | :41:19. | |
but we will settle for that. The house shall forthwith resolve itself | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
into the legislative grand committee. Order, order. | :41:24. | :41:42. | |
I call the Minister to move the consent motion. Move formally. The | :41:43. | :41:52. | |
question if that the legislative grand committee England consents to | :41:53. | :41:55. | |
clause 85 of the Digital economy Bill. The debate will now take | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
place. It is all done formally. Come on in. I promise to be brief and it | :42:03. | :42:12. | |
comes to... To these substantial and significant... Clauses which relate | :42:13. | :42:23. | |
exclusively to England. We've got this fantastic opportunity. Here we | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
are in what is the English Parliament to debate important | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
clauses of this bill. Tuition fees, as it relates to qualifications, is | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
very important to England. I'm therefore surprised, Mr Speaker, we | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
are not getting more contributions from honourable members. Here they | :42:44. | :42:45. | |
have this fantastic opportunity to speak at length at these | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
English-only clauses, something which was demanded, I believe, in | :42:50. | :42:54. | |
the last general election where so many people were saying to | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
particular Conservative members that this was required, and we've got | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
nobody here today to participate in this debate. I give way. The former | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
Prime Minister David Cameron stood on the steps of Downing Street in | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
2014 and said millions of English voices must be heard. This is the | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
procedure to allow those millions of voices to be heard. The Constitution | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
unit produced a report this afternoon that showed bed been a | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
maximum of 40 minutes of debate in all the legislative grand | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
procedures. I'm grateful to my honourable friend phrasing that | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
point because I have here the report from the Constitution unit which | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
went into detail and depth in two English laws. It is important to | :43:40. | :43:48. | |
this bill, clause 80 five. It is important this is debated fully and | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
it is important English members get their say because this is English | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
votes for English laws is about. That we have this opportunity for | :43:58. | :44:00. | |
English members to raise their concerns about parts of bills which | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
relate exclusively to England Tony's every have this opportunity. Clause | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
85 is here. We invite honourable members to contribute to this | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
debate. What we found from the Constitution unit when it came to | :44:13. | :44:20. | |
English votes for English laws is that it has taken... We need to use | :44:21. | :44:30. | |
this time appropriately. This is an important measure. Clause 85 is the | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
only part of this bill which is English only and it deserves all the | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
debate it could possibly require and muster. I'm surprised not even the | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
Minister using this opportunity to bring these measures forward. We | :44:45. | :44:49. | |
don't know and we can say this is a waste of the house's time because it | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
isn't a waste of the house's time because it is very important that | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
the house breaks up its usual routine, examination of bills | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
legislation, to come into the legislative grand committee to | :45:05. | :45:06. | |
consider these important measures just as we have in clause 80 five. | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
It's important the bills go on in the house that go into recess so a | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
decision can be made. It gives this house the great opportunity to | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
examine these in great detail. I hope that I am not the only speaker, | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
something that is considered to be so important, something we had to | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
change the standing orders of the house in order to progress. Mr | :45:32. | :45:38. | |
Deputy Speaker, I know other members want to get in. Or other honourable | :45:39. | :45:47. | |
members don't want to get in but this is their opportunity to debate | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
this very important clause. And I am so surprised that we have no other | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
contributions tonight. Can I same conclusion this just shows the | :45:59. | :46:02. | |
absolute and utter absurdity of these English votes for English laws | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
proposals and standing order changes where we are sitting here, when not | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
one member from an English constituency... Order. I think we | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
have somebody to follow, don't worry. Have you finished? Minister. | :46:20. | :46:28. | |
All I can say is that in the second reading debate, he had the | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
opportunity to talk about clause 80 five. Did he? No, he did not. In | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
committee, we had spent time. He could have enjoyed our company on | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
the committee and talked about clause 80 five. And he did not. He | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
could have tabled any sort of amendment to clause 85 or tried to | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
vote against it, and he chose not to. So I think we can see through | :46:52. | :47:01. | |
all of his bluster. The question is that legislative grand committee | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
consents to clause 85, the Digital economy Bill. As many of that | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
opinion is a iMac. To the contrary, no. | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
I think we have a clear decision. The ayes have it. Order, order. | :47:14. | :47:45. | |
Order. A baked report the legislative grand committee England | :47:46. | :47:55. | |
has consented to clause 85 of the Digital economy Bill. Third reading? | :47:56. | :48:07. | |
Now. Queen's Club sent? It's done. Prince of Wales consent? Minister to | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
move third reading. Mr Deputy Speaker, I beg to move the | :48:12. | :48:25. | |
bill be now read for the third time. This bill will cement the UK's | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
status as a world leading digital economy. It will help people connect | :48:31. | :48:37. | |
to high-speed broadband, expanding their personal opportunities and | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
stimulating economic activity it will improve services because of | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
better data management, and it'll protect the vulnerable from some of | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
the hazards of the digital world. It is an important measure in building | :48:52. | :48:57. | |
a country that works for everyone. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am very | :48:58. | :49:01. | |
grateful to the house for the way it is engaged with this bill. I want to | :49:02. | :49:07. | |
put on record my thanks to the Minister of State for digital and | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
culture, the Minister for the Constitution, the culture media and | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
is -- the culture media sport select committee. The public Bill | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
committee, the whips and the clerks, who have all been particularly | :49:20. | :49:22. | |
helpful. And I also want to thank the front benches of the opposition | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
and the SNP for their constructive approach. We are increasing | :49:26. | :49:33. | |
connectivity by moving forward with a new broadband universal service | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
obligation. There are reforms to the electronics applications code and we | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
have greater protection for intellectual property and consumers. | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
We have strengthen protections for children, too, and I extend special | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
thanks to my honourable friend, the members for devices and North West | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
Hampshire. As well as helping to bring the country online, it enables | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
sharing of information between public bodies where there is a | :50:01. | :50:06. | |
public benefit. That will help an additional 700,000 fuel poor | :50:07. | :50:09. | |
households. It means the public sector will be more considerate when | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
pursuing debts from the vulnerable. There will be fewer burdensome | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
service for businesses to complete. No more unwarranted post will be | :50:19. | :50:21. | |
sent to the families of the deceased. We have ensured the | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
provision of both transparency and robust safeguards. And these | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
measures will benefit the whole country. Mr Deputy Speaker, the | :50:31. | :50:36. | |
government added a number of important new measures in committee. | :50:37. | :50:41. | |
There is now further support for the financial technology sector, | :50:42. | :50:44. | |
enabling payment firms that are not banks to access payment systems | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
currently accessible only to banks. This will improve competition in | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
financial services and benefit consumers. We are offering free | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
Digital skills training for adults in England to lack qualifications. | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
And the bill gives Ofcom more power to keep harmful content from being | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
broadcast on radio and television. Mr Deputy Speaker, I hope the | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
successful way the Digital Economy Bill has been discussed and improved | :51:12. | :51:16. | |
as it passes through this house will reassure and encourage those in the | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
other place as they consider this bill. Digital technology offers | :51:20. | :51:25. | |
tremendous opportunities. Many of them are currently hard to predict, | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
and some are unfathomable. Yet, we know that we must be ready now if we | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
are to enjoy innovations in the future. I want the UK to be in a | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
position to lead the world in the development of digital technology. | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
And I want to lead the world in digital connectivity and skills for | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
everyone, not just the professionals, and not just the | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
privileged few. Mr Deputy Speaker, this bill will make our country | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
wealthier, more efficient, more skilful, more connected, and safer, | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
and I commend it to the house. The question is the bill be read a third | :52:07. | :52:14. | |
time. Can I also thank my honourable friends who served on the public | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
Bill committee and the many individuals and organisations who | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
submitted information for the scrutiny of the bill, as well as the | :52:22. | :52:26. | |
clerks for their patience and advice, and the ministers for their | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
hard work on the bill. The Minister has been most assiduous, as we've | :52:31. | :52:36. | |
tried also in opposition. Even during the report stage, she tried | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
to speak some Welsh in the course of our proceedings. It reminded me a | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
little bit of Winston Churchill when he attempted to speak French, take | :52:46. | :52:57. | |
God I'm going to speak French. He didn't give us that warning. He said | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
he thought it meant he backed the Welsh language. In fact, he said I | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
back channel for Wales. I think that's what he said, anyway. Ike | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
congratulate him for speaking the language of heaven. The opposition | :53:13. | :53:14. | |
will not oppose this clause. It's weaknesses lie as much in what | :53:15. | :53:32. | |
it omits as to what it contains. President Lyndon Johnson once said | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
of a bill that it was like grandma's nightshirt, it covers everything. | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
This bill attempts to cover everything but I'm afraid there are | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
quite a few holes in it. A Digital Economy Bill would look much better | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
if it contained and properly recognise the importance of the | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
Digital economy to the whole country, if it took account of the | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
pace of change in the use of new technology, if it saw a central role | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
in a way that work itself is changing for people in the UK. | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
Imagine what it would be like if the bill was more ambitious about | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
delivering ultrafast fibre broadband and mobile network coverage to | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
everyone who needs it. Imagine what the bill would look like if it | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
recognise the need to provide people with digital skills so they can | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
benefit from new technologies and the jobs of the future. Or that it | :54:21. | :54:24. | |
paid attention to digital resilience and saw fit to mention cyber | :54:25. | :54:29. | |
security and preventing online abuse. A digital bill that did any | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
of those things would look actually very different from the bill that we | :54:33. | :54:36. | |
have in front of us, but I want to focus on some of the areas where | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
they have some agreement, on collectivity, we support the | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
universal service obligation, but it is too slow a step in the right | :54:46. | :54:49. | |
direction. We caught this to be introduced back in 2010, we had | :54:50. | :54:54. | |
fully costed plans were to be achieved by 2012, the 10 megabits | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
which will be guaranteed to households is less than half of what | :54:59. | :55:00. | |
is needed to achieve superfast broadband and if you're wondering | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
whether 10 megabits is really inadequate, don't just take my word | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
for it, the Minister of State actually said in his speech to the | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
broadband world Forum last month, whilst 10 megabits may be enough for | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
today's needs, it will not be enough for tomorrow. Even the minister | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
admits that his own legislation will be out of date by the time it is | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
implemented. On age verification we share the objective of protecting | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
children from online pornography and we support the provisions in the | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
bill which aim to do this, but we remain unclear about how they will | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
work in practice and we hope more detail emerges as the bill urges to | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
scrutiny and the Other Place. There are legitimate concerns about | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
privacy and the security of personal data which the government must do | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
much more to answer. And the bill lacks any mention of the need for | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
online sex and relationship education which it is at least as | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
important as age verification in protecting children from the risk of | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
early exposure to inappropriate material. There are some measures | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
relating to public service broadcasting which we support and | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
will have to give greater stability and certainty to the sector, but one | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
way the government to clear up an area of great uncertainty which | :56:18. | :56:18. | |
hangs over the public service broadcasting system at the moment is | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
to clarify their thinking about the future of Channel 4. It is now 14 | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
months since it became known that the government was considering | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
options, including privatisation of Channel 4, and we are still none the | :56:33. | :56:36. | |
wiser as to their thinking, bringing this matter to a speedy conclusion, | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
I hope, by announcing their continued support of Channel 4's | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
current model would help bring stability and certainty, not just do | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
that important sub -- public sector institution but the wider creative | :56:51. | :56:55. | |
in this series with which its work is in -- intimately bound up. I hope | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
that the government will be able to provide reassurance on many of the | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
concerns that have been raised by our colleagues in this House and to | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
think harder about many other questions which have so far gone | :57:08. | :57:10. | |
unanswered. It is not too late for the to address peoples rights over | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
their own personal data, admitted is currently silent, and it's not too | :57:19. | :57:20. | |
late to come forward with measures to secure the of more than 1 million | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
workers in the Digital economy many of whom are in various roles with | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
uncertain rights, Alice, contracts and even legal status. And it is not | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
too late for the bill to recognise the needs of the 12 million people | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
in the UK who do not have basic digital skills, which are | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
increasingly necessary to navigate public services, to do business and | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
to get jobs. With the additional scrutiny to be provided, the Other | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
Place can do these things and more and when it comes back to this House | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
it will enjoy more wholehearted support from these benches than we | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
have been able to offer it so far. This bill, I think through this bill | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
we are seeing an Internet coming-of-age. And I think the | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
change in tone of the front benches to be very much welcomed on both | :58:08. | :58:12. | |
sides of the House. The digital economy in this country is hugely | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
important, but we also need rules in this area as much as in other areas | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
of our lives. And I think the acknowledgement that there needs to | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
be further clear rules on content is to be welcomed across the board. I | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
congratulate the front bench on the amendments that have been made to | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
strengthen enforcement, particularly around content and I hope that the | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
Other Place when it considers this bill is able to look at some of the | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
other points that members have put at various points in the debate, and | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
I wish the bill well. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. Can I add | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
to the positive vibes coming from both frontbenchers? And join them in | :58:54. | :59:02. | |
thanking, the bill has been fantastic, having to deal with some | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
in the relatively new to all this, still, and sometimes not getting | :59:07. | :59:09. | |
things right first time, so particular thanks involved to the | :59:10. | :59:16. | |
officials in the DCMS and Ofcom, particularly constructive and | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
helpful, too, and My Honourable Friend from Inverness, Nairn, bad | :59:20. | :59:31. | |
and can Strathspey... He and I learnt, we entered this bill | :59:32. | :59:37. | |
committee with the optimism, thinking, we have got such a massive | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
logic behind our case, the government is going to bite our hand | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
off at some of these new clauses and amendments. Of course, that never | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
happens, even when they absolutely agree with what you're saying. There | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
is always an excuse as to why they have to do it in their own way. I | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
remember back at second reading, the Minister shrugs, but at one point he | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
even spoke to my new clause because the Chair called him before me, | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
thinking, this must be one of ours, I fundamentally agree with it, and | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
then, it was actually, we will have to do a consultation. Back in second | :00:15. | :00:20. | |
reading, the former Secretary of State compared this bill to a | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
Christmas tree. It is quite an interesting and allergy as we | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
consider where we have ended up -- analogy. In the second reading I | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
said that the total of the Digital Economy Bill was something of a | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
misnomer. It was lacking in terms of any strategy or ambition or drive as | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
to how it was going to take advantage of the digital | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
opportunities, there was certainly no guiding light or star on top of | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
this tree. It is fair to say that some of the things that have been | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
hung up on it leaves a little bit to be desired, but we should | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
acknowledge, as My Honourable Friend from North Ayrshire said, and | :01:04. | :01:15. | |
speaking in an EVEL division, there were a number of things that are | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
very welcome. They did not get touched on today because of the | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
agreement, the reform of electronic communication code, I think we all | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
agree is overdue, some of the things around customer compensation and | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
switching, absolutely very welcome as are some of the developments for | :01:31. | :01:39. | |
Ofcom and the view of spectrum. Other things leave something more to | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
be desired. They feel more tokenistic than meaningful. I | :01:44. | :01:46. | |
particularly referred to the universal service obligation. I have | :01:47. | :01:52. | |
to give way. Would My Honourable Friend agree that constituents in | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
all part of this country want access to ultrafast, not just fast and | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
superfast broadband. I totally agree with My Honourable Friend. I think | :02:02. | :02:04. | |
the government has missed an opportunity. I am disappointed they | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
would not take my new clause. Perhaps this is the foundation for | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
the emergence of a strategy. I think members opposite will have to | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
explain to their constituents why 10 megabits is OK for rural whilst | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
urban aims for 100 times faster on a gigabit connection. There are some | :02:25. | :02:31. | |
other areas where the bill might be well intended but as I touched upon | :02:32. | :02:39. | |
earlier, it is flawed in execution. My Honourable Friend, the member for | :02:40. | :02:45. | |
Rutherglen and Hamilton West spoke about this. This is like the parcel | :02:46. | :02:53. | |
under the Christmas tree, it looks quite nice but when you open it it | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
is deeply flawed and will be returned to sender. I would like to | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
see section five return to sender. I love welcomed the Minister's | :03:02. | :03:05. | |
commitment to continue to evolve the measures that have been put in | :03:06. | :03:10. | |
place. At 14 -- 1.I thought the amendments paper was getting bigger | :03:11. | :03:13. | |
than the bill itself, such was the desire to do so, and using | :03:14. | :03:19. | |
technology I've read a tweet from Big Brother Watch which said, good | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
to hear support from the GB PR for the Minister, can the government now | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
write part five so that it actually ideas to it? So I look forward to | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
continual efforts to ensure that happens. -- so that it adheres did. | :03:34. | :03:43. | |
Amongst the light-hearted and at other times series comments there | :03:44. | :03:48. | |
has been a general movement in this Bill on this side of the House to | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
try to be constructive on or ideas and discussions and I look forward | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
to continuing in that vein, going forward. I just want to speak very | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
briefly at third reading. I very much enjoyed being part of the Bill | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
committee of this Bill. It's only the second Bill committee, I noticed | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
the whips are looking at me, this is by no means an application to be | :04:14. | :04:19. | |
involved in any more any time soon! But we have had a very constructive | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
team on the Bill committee. And we have just heard a very encouraging | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
report stage as well. I want to touch briefly on the issue, I think | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
it is what pressing home, before we all go home, this idea of ticketing | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
and bots. People have said, surely this is a free issue. This is a word | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
that gets used a lot, and rightly so. The principle of any truly free | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
market is having a willing buyer and a willing seller, so we can't forget | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
about that second part of the equation, the willing seller. Whilst | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
might be some who are willing to spend, possibly through gritted | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
teeth, many thousands of pounds and dozens of times the face value to | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
see a favourite artist, certainly, not many artists are willing to sell | :05:11. | :05:17. | |
their tickets to parasitic touts. Touts rob artists of the right to | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
set prices that might be more accessible to their fans. If Dell | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
wanted to charge 10,000, ?20,000 to tickets for shows, she would, but | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
she doesn't, and as a seller, that is right. We should support a free | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
market in which the choice of sellers to develop their fan base is | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
respected. I am very pleased that the Minister at report stage has | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
committed to Act against bots if necessary, following his meeting | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
with the Secretary of State and the industry. I have no doubt that all | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
involved would like to work together to do so, as this bill progresses, | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
and I stand ready to play a small part, possible. The fundamental | :06:01. | :06:06. | |
point is that we have now achieved a broad consensus, cross-party | :06:07. | :06:09. | |
consensus, on this issue. Other countries have brought in a similar | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
legislation to outlaw bots and now was a time for this Chamber to take | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
action. I know this is a technical area and not simple to resolve, as I | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
have mentioned before, whilst this is not the only measure to tackle | :06:24. | :06:28. | |
the problems in ticketing, there is cross-party support and lots of | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
support outside his House from, including, the ticketing companies. | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
They want action to outlaw bots. I look forward to the Minister's | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
response to the Waterson report, and I welcome any action the government | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
then takes in Another Place which will give consumers confidence that | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
this government is on the side of everyone and not just the privileged | :06:51. | :07:00. | |
few. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. I will be very brief and just make a | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
few comments. I thought the work that was done on the Bill committee | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
was very positive overall, and I think there are a number of things | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
that we can take forward and we can look to see the benefits for the | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
future. I would add, I think, that there does need to be, going | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
forward, much more of a focus on the consumer and the rights of the | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
consumer and the end-user. I believe that there are further opportunities | :07:27. | :07:28. | |
to make sure that the right solutions are delivered in the right | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
places, for rural areas, and that when we are considering speeds, we | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
should consider outside in and we should think of those people who | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
normally get their technology latest, actually getting the | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
opportunity to get it first. Consumers should be protected when | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
they buy things, when they make a contract, that contract should | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
protect them as much as the company, and I think there was a balance to | :07:54. | :07:56. | |
be gained going forward, but I welcome award of the measures that | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
have come forward in the Bill and I look forward to seeing this move | :08:02. | :08:02. | |
forward in the future. Thank you. The question is the bill be read for | :08:03. | :08:13. | |
a third time. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :08:14. | :08:21. | |
"no". The ayes have it. We now come to motion number three, on the | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
Speaker's committee for the Independent Parliamentary Standards | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
Authority. Minister to move? I beg to move. The question is as on the | :08:30. | :08:36. | |
order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
"no". . The ayes have it. We now come to motion number four, the | :08:42. | :08:48. | |
business of the house. Sir Michael to move. I beg to move. It is on the | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
rare occasion we have the opportunity to debate this | :08:54. | :08:57. | |
particular motion. What we are doing is changing and standing orders, and | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
standing orders are here to protect Parliament against the executive. | :09:03. | :09:11. | |
We're talking about oppose private business. Standing orders quite | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
clearly says that opposed private business should come on at 4pm and | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
effectively run the three hours. The reason for that beer is that the | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
promoters of the bill and the people who support it and are interested | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
know the time to be here. As MPs, we are here all the time. We should not | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
inconvenience promoters and private business. It is routinely done. This | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
suspension of the standing order isn't because there is any | :09:42. | :09:43. | |
particular worry tomorrow about what's going to happen. It's because | :09:44. | :09:49. | |
of government routinely doing it. If we get into a habit of letting the | :09:50. | :09:53. | |
government routinely suspends standing orders, which are here to | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
protect Parliament, then it is a dangerous course to tread. And I | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
would like the deputy leader of the house, if he could tell the house | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
why specifically this has to be done in this case because I've looked at | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
the business, and we could quite happily start the business of | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
government business, we could start it, get to 4pm, do they opposed | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
private business, then we could go back to government business because | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
what happens time and time again in previous governments is opposed | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
private business was taken very, very late at night, which was not | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
fair on the promoters of the bill. And it absolutely was not the way to | :10:40. | :10:46. | |
do it. In other words, we shouldn't be promoting government business | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
over the right of parliaments I'd like to hear from the deputy leader | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
of the house why we specifically need to do it in this case. Thank | :10:57. | :11:05. | |
you, sir. Minister? I'm very grateful, Mr Deputy Speaker, and no | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
doubt my honourable friend not for the first time has made a very | :11:09. | :11:14. | |
interesting point. It is not the case that this is a routine matter. | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
And I take on board what my honourable friend for Wellingborough | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
has said. I undertake to review the situation. And we will write to my | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
honourable friend for Wellingborough with a full and detailed explanation | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
of the matter. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of | :11:37. | :11:39. | |
the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. | :11:40. | :11:47. | |
I'd like to put the following motions together, five, six, seven, | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
eight, nine, ten, 11 and 12. We now come to those motions. I beg to | :11:54. | :12:04. | |
move. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have had. We now come | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
to perdition. It is a great honour to present a petition on behalf of | :12:13. | :12:21. | |
the residents of find in. I went the boundary meeting. Wellingborough | :12:22. | :12:30. | |
will have four boundary changes. There were hundreds of people there | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
on a horrible night in November. And they were very animated, sir, about | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
this particular issue. The three lead signatures RAO Gould, Council | :12:41. | :12:48. | |
Malcolm Ward, and Councillor Barbara Bailey. And the petition reads. To | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
the honourable Commons and Parliament assembled, the humble | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
petition of finding, Northamptonshire and the surrounding | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
areas show the petitions believe the boundaries of the Wellingborough | :13:04. | :13:06. | |
constituencies should continue to include the village of find and due | :13:07. | :13:10. | |
to the geographical local government and historical ties that exist in | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
the area. Wherefore your petitions pray that your honourable house | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
urges the Cabinet office to encourage the Boundary Commission | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
for England to retain it as part of the constituency in its upcoming | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
review, and it your petitioners will ever pray it settled. | :13:32. | :13:45. | |
In addition, the boundaries of the Wellingborough constituency. I beg | :13:46. | :14:01. | |
to move the house to now adjourn. The question now is the house to | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
adjourn. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. On June five, 1989, nothing | :14:08. | :14:16. | |
was to be the same. My eight-year-old son Martin, a bright | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
and beautiful boy, stepped out onto the road and was tragically knocked | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
down. Much of what happened over the following weeks was and still is a | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
blur. The pain is so acute, and the sensation of this is | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
incomprehensible. And the tragedy seems almost surreal. At times I | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
felt I was floating above the road when this grief was dwelling and I | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
wasn't part of it. I wasn't part of what was going on. It was a dream, I | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
wished. Mostly I felt my life was a bank holiday when shops shut and | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
mail wasn't delivered and the milk and didn't come. Seeing people | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
outside of my own world going about their everyday business just didn't | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
seem right. I asked myself, didn't they know the world had come to an | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
end? I always felt my brain and sensors were full of cotton wool and | :15:10. | :15:15. | |
nothing I said also sensed or experienced resonated. It didn't hit | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
a hard surface. Nothing registered, it just floated around in my head. I | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
have a vague recollection of chatting with my vicar and the | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
undertaker about the kind of service I wanted. I may well have been given | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
prices at that time but considering I needed to be told to wash, eat and | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
sleep, it didn't register in my brain. I understand retrospectively | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
that a cremation would've been cheaper than a burial but I had to | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
bury my son. At the time, I was making a decision on the funeral I | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
was actually deciding on whether to join my son on the outside or not. | :15:55. | :16:00. | |
Or to stay for my three-year-old, who really needed his mum. I | :16:01. | :16:08. | |
calculated and I use that were deliberately because I assessed | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
which of my two children needed to me the most. And I eventually | :16:12. | :16:17. | |
reasoned that Stewart was only three, he couldn't lose his mum and | :16:18. | :16:21. | |
brother all in one go. So, my much loved grandparents were buried | :16:22. | :16:28. | |
together in my constituency, and I felt that putting Martin in the | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
grave with them meant that my grandmother who loved him dearly was | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
there to look after him until I could be with him again. So I had to | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
bury my little boy, Accies that gave me some peace of mind. Later in | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
life, I went on to have another child, Thomas, who is now 15, and | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
Stuart is now 31 and him and his wife have given me a wonderful | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
grandson, so I made the right decision in not joining Martin and | :16:56. | :16:59. | |
to stay with Stuart. But mothers will understand the position I was | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
in. We all live for our children. To lose one, you have to decide who | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
need to most. We want to give our children the skills to help them | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
build good lives, we want to give our children the latest toy, gadget, | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
the best of everything. As young parents, we save Christmas and | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
birthdays to allow us to do that but when you lose a child, the only | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
thing you can give them is a funeral, and a grave. I'm told that | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
my son had a wonderful funeral. I cannot remember much about it | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
because my world was black. And nothing resonated in my mind. I | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
couldn't function, I couldn't do simple chores, like washing or | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
cooking. When the undertaker was explaining to me what the plans for | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
my boy's funeral were, I wanted to hold him, not bury him. But I | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
remember the day the bill arrived and the fear in my stomach as to how | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
I'd pay for it. My husband David and I both come from a community who | :18:08. | :18:12. | |
reacted to loss in the only way they knew how. They had a collection. Out | :18:13. | :18:18. | |
of the blue, two of his mates, and I can see them standing at my front | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
door, not knowing whether to comment or run away, they turned up with an | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
envelope of money, and thank God for my community and friends because | :18:28. | :18:31. | |
that collection was enough to cover three quarters of the fuel cost. The | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
following day, my husband went to the bank and ask them for ?750, and | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
they said yes. So I had the money for the funeral. I've chosen to | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
share my story because I'm in a position to be the voice of parents. | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
Approximately 5,000 babies and children will pass away each year in | :18:52. | :18:57. | |
this country, and isn't something any parent can or could be prepared | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
for. No one expects to bury their children. It is in the role order. | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
When the tragedy happens, parents will be totally unprepared both | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
emotionally and financially. And since I've spoken about this issue, | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
I've receive support from colleagues across the house. I've received | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
e-mails, calls, letters from other parents in a similar position to me. | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
A member of the house staff stopped me to say that he and his wife lost | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
an 18-month-old baby and his local authority charged him for an adult | :19:34. | :19:36. | |
funeral, and he had to battle the local authority to get the cost | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
reduced. Another gentleman wrote he'd lost two children, a | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
one-year-old and a 17-year-old. And this man tells me he was ashamed to | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
ask for help to cover the funeral costs as he'd wanted to give that to | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
his children. Today I learned of a couple who had a very premature baby | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
who passed away after four weeks in special care. When the parents | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
weighed up the cost of a funeral, they couldn't afford it so they had | :20:06. | :20:08. | |
to leave the baby for the NHS to deal with. And that is not uncommon. | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
I've had a teacher told me that when they lost a pupil in her school, | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
they held a non-school uniform day to help parents pay for the funeral. | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
The cancer charity have contacted me and regarding the server they've | :20:25. | :20:27. | |
undertaken in relation to issues that are most concerned the parents | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
of children with cancer. Many say that paying for the funeral is a | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
very big worry. They've told me of one family has little boy's football | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
club undertook fundraising to help them cover the cost of the funeral. | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
Across local authority, fees the children's funerals vary greatly. On | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
a more compassionate note, I've heard from a mother who lost a very, | :20:51. | :20:57. | |
very premature twin baby, and an authority in Wales not just covered | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
the local authority fees, they absorbed the total cost of the | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
funeral. So, to that authority, authorities who do not charge, or | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
those planning to scrap fees, I say from the bottom of my heart, thank | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
you. It's a very small amount of money am asking the government to | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
put in. ?10 million. The fees the children's funerals could be covered | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
right across this country the ?10 million. It is an easy and small ask | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
but it would impact greatly on the cost of the funeral. And in no small | :21:33. | :21:39. | |
way give comfort to Brive to parents. The Prime Minister | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
suggested the social fund could be used to help but I say to the Prime | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
Minister at the darkest moment of a parent's life, I couldn't even fill | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
kettle, let alone Delaunay 35 page application form. I've subsequently | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
written to the Prime Minister asking she consider my request but, as of | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
yet, I have not received a reply. So, I will conclude by sing to the | :22:04. | :22:10. | |
Minister please do this, make this happen. It's the right thing to do, | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
it is the respectful thing to do, and it is the compassionate thing to | :22:16. | :22:22. | |
do. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I'd like to begin by thanking the | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
honourable member for Swansea East for her work in bringing this | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
sensitive and important issue to national attention. It is always | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
difficult to say that you know how others feel in such circumstances. | :22:39. | :22:48. | |
As it is ten o'clock I beg to move this sows to a John McGinn. The | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
question is that this House to now adjourn. -- this House to adjourn. | :22:55. | :23:06. | |
It is difficult to say that you know how others feel. That is always, you | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
know, an easy thing to say when you have not been in those circumstances | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
yourself. I am a father of two children and I am very lucky, but I | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
must say that losing a child must be the worst thing that can happen to a | :23:27. | :23:34. | |
parent. It is important, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the arrangements that | :23:35. | :23:41. | |
the State can put in place in such circumstances are as helpful in | :23:42. | :23:43. | |
giving support to grieving parents as they can be. This is clearly, | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
therefore, a matter of great sensitivity and importance and it is | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
incumbent on all public sector organisations with a role to play to | :23:55. | :23:57. | |
ensure that they are understanding and helpful. Now I am very grateful | :23:58. | :24:04. | |
to the honourable lady for Swansea East for setting up this issue so | :24:05. | :24:07. | |
powerfully. It certainly cannot have been easy for the honourable lady to | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
come to the House tonight and make a speech on this subject. She has | :24:14. | :24:21. | |
shown what I would say is great strength and courage in bringing | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
this issue to the House tonight. If I may sort of start, Mr Deputy | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
Speaker in setting out the context in which my department and local | :24:33. | :24:41. | |
government operate, as democratically elected | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
organisations, local government is independent of central government | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
and is responsible for managing its budgets in line with local | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
priorities. I understand that there are a number of local authorities | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
who already choose to waive fees for children's funerals and I would hope | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
all local authorities would consider carefully their policy in this area | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
and whether it is right to go further in the light of the concerns | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
which the honourable lady has raised today, but I note that recently, | :25:11. | :25:21. | |
Telford and Wrekin council have decided to do that, as the | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
honourable lady as requested. There also is a role that central | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
government can play. The government recognises that the period following | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
a death will have emotional, social and financial impacts for the | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
bereaved, and people may need to draw on a wider range of support at | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
that difficult time. It is for this reason that the Department for Work | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
and Pensions operates the Social Fund expenses paid scheme which | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
makes a significant contribution towards a funeral for families in | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
receipt of a qualifying income benefit. The scheme means that all | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
necessary cost of reclamation or burial including the purchase of a | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
grave with exclusive burial rites. Other costs such as the coffin, | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
church and funeral directors' fees are limited to a maximum scheme | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
payment of ?700 but there is no restriction on the type of funeral | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
expenses that can be claimed under this category in applying the limit | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
allows the bereaved the choice of how it is best to spend the paid -- | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
the payment in the way they choose. I hear what the honourable lady has | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
said with regard to the Social Fund and I absolutely understand the | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
concerns around the way in which the Social Fund works, and the context. | :26:39. | :26:47. | |
I will give way in just a moment. As I was just saying, I understand the | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
concerns of the honourable lady on the way that the Social Fund works. | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
It is good today that we have one of my colleagues on the Treasury bench | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
from the Department for Work and Pensions to operate the scheme, and | :27:00. | :27:01. | |
she will have heard what the honourable lady has had to say about | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
the scheme in that regard. I will give way. I thank the Minister for | :27:06. | :27:10. | |
giving way. I would just say to him that I hope he has listened and | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
heard. He talked about ?700 in the grant. As we have heard, parents in | :27:15. | :27:22. | |
a fog of bereavement cannot even think of filling in DWP forms. He | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
talks about a grant of ?700. That goes nowhere towards the cost of a | :27:28. | :27:30. | |
funeral in many parts of the country. It costs thousands. My | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
Honourable Friend has put an incredibly courageous case to have | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
that costs covered by the government. It cannot be the case | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
that it is right to put a local council to between choosing to do | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
this or choosing to provide social care, and that might be the choice | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
that they have, so would the Minister not think again and not | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
give 's Pat and servers, not give My Honourable Friend a packed and so, | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
what really take this away and think about it? -- pat answers. I fully | :27:58. | :28:06. | |
understand the point she makes and the sentiment behind those points. | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
In terms of the Social Fund that I was talking about, the maximum | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
payment for certain costs are limited to ?700 but there are other | :28:16. | :28:21. | |
ones that can be realised through that. I do appreciate what she says | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
in terms of how that fund is accessed. What I would say to the | :28:27. | :28:34. | |
honourable lady is that the funding both from the Social Fund, the | :28:35. | :28:37. | |
funeral expenses payments and central fund budgeting loans do, in | :28:38. | :28:45. | |
many cases offer adequate levels of support and the actual amount that | :28:46. | :28:48. | |
is spent by the government in 2015-16, was ?40 million. I realise | :28:49. | :28:59. | |
that this evening, Mr Deputy Speaker, I am not able to give the | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
honourable lady the assurances that she has come to the House for. I am | :29:03. | :29:10. | |
not able to go as far as the honourable lady would like what I | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
recognise the very significant pain that the honourable lady has | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
articulated to the House tonight and a significant pain that families | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
find themselves in man who are in the same situation as the honourable | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
lady. Yes, I will give way. First of all I would like to commend the | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
honourable lady for the very compassionate way that she put over | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
her case. There would not be a member of this House who did not | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
have a tear in their eye at the same time. But, Minister, the honourable | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
lady that maybe intervention indicated that those on benefits | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
would receive help through the funeral Social Fund but those on the | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
lower income should be helped, and the Minister will be aware that | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
there are charities, which can help as well. What the honourable lady | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
has asked for and I want to put on record as well in this House to | :30:05. | :30:09. | |
support her, and support all of the members here tonight is that they | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
consider and grasp the understanding and compassion that we want you, as | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
Minister, to have, on behalf of all this honourable lady here and all | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
those people out there, who need help. I thank the honourable | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
gentleman for his intervention. I certainly understand the sentiment | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
behind it. I agree with him, that there are charities that support | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
families in this sense, and I also understand what asking of | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
government, as I do, in relation to what the honourable lady is looking | :30:47. | :30:48. | |
for. My Honourable Friend on the front bench is restarting a round | :30:49. | :30:58. | |
table group with the funeral industry and bereavement charities, | :30:59. | :31:01. | |
because I think it's important that the government does have a better | :31:02. | :31:07. | |
understanding of how the funeral industry works in this regard, and | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
what more can be done to help. As I said, Mr Deputy Speaker... I will | :31:13. | :31:19. | |
give way. I am grateful to the Minister for giving way and I want | :31:20. | :31:22. | |
to congratulate the member for Swansea East for the incredible | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
courage she has shown in recent days and in fact he is. On that specific | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
point, can the Minister also recognise that for people of | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
different faiths, that can add additional complexity and cost, | :31:36. | :31:40. | |
particularly if a rapid burial is required. With that round table and | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
the particular case of my constituents who have experienced | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
funeral poverty where faith has been at the mention, can I urge the | :31:49. | :31:51. | |
Minister and his colleagues to understand that faith organisations, | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
particularly Muslim and Jewish organisations, are represented in | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
those discussions? I fully understand what the honourable | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
gentleman says. I represent many Muslim constituents myself and I | :32:06. | :32:07. | |
know that when they have bereavement within the community, they seek to | :32:08. | :32:13. | |
deal with a burial as soon as possible, quite often within 24 | :32:14. | :32:19. | |
hours, and he makes a very good point and My Honourable Friend has | :32:20. | :32:22. | |
just nodded to me and confirmed that she would be more than happy to | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
include the groups that the honourable gentleman mentions. Mr | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
Deputy Speaker, as I have said several times now, I know that the | :32:34. | :32:39. | |
assurances that I have been able to give tonight will not go as far as | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
the honourable lady would like and I recognise the difficulty and the | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
trouble is that the honourable lady has gone to, and bring this matter | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
to the House tonight. I hope that, by bringing the matter to the wider | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
attention of this House and of the public, local authorities will | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
consider their approach to charging in the future and take their local | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
residents' views into account. I can also say to the honourable lady that | :33:12. | :33:16. | |
Michael will friend here on the Treasury bench representing the | :33:17. | :33:23. | |
Treasury -- My Honourable Friend will have heard what the honourable | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
lady says and I am sure that from tonight's debate, we will all | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
reflect on what the honourable lady has suggested that the government | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
do. The question is this House to adjourn. As many as of that opinion | :33:38. | :33:46. | |
say hi. The Ayes have it, the Ayes have it. Order, order. -- say aye. | :33:47. | :34:39. | |
The Speaker of the House of Commons the man's order as things get a | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
little rowdy in the Chamber. The right honourable gentleman will be | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
heard and the Prime Minister will be heard! Speaker is a central figure | :34:50. | :34:55. | |
in the Commons. It is he or she who calls MPs to make their speeches ask | :34:56. | :35:00. | |
their questions, and give their statements. Statement, the Secretary | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
of State for exiting the European Union... It is an old job, dating | :35:07. | :35:16. | |
back to 1377, long before we had Cabinet ministers and prime | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
ministers. Their names are all displayed here in the House of | :35:20. | :35:23. | |
Commons Library. The Speaker used to take messages from Parliament to the | :35:24. | :35:27. | |
King but sometimes the king didn't like the message one little bit. You | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
know what they say about beer in the bearer of bad news. Right. Seven | :35:33. | :35:40. | |
speakers were executed. So getting the job wasn't necessarily good | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
news. And to this day there is a sure reluctance to take the job. | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Every new Speaker is supposedly dragged up by fellow MPs to sit in | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
the big Chair although secretly they are thrilled to bits. The Speaker | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
has three main jobs, refereeing the debates in the Chamber, ensuring | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
that Parliament is relevant and newsworthy, and playing a ceremonial | :36:06. | :36:13. | |
role. Hats off, strangers. As part of the ceremonials, the Speaker | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
appears in the procession of six, making its way each Parliamentary | :36:17. | :36:23. | |
day to the Chamber to start proceedings. And on the poshest day | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
of all, State Opening day, when the Queen comes to Parliament, the | :36:29. | :36:31. | |
Speaker is seen in his finery, wearing his ceremonial robes. Over | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
the years the Speaker's appearance has undergone a bit of a makeover. I | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
remember the House that the resignation statement is heard in | :36:44. | :36:45. | |
silence and without interruption. Bernard Wetherall was the last | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
Speaker to whether wig and a full court press, Gallen, bridges, | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
stockings and buckled shoes. | :36:54. | :37:04. |