12/12/2016 House of Commons


12/12/2016

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Exceptionally, I understand that it flows from what has taken place, I

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will hear a point of order now. But I'm sure the Honourable Gentleman

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will not abuse his privilege. During defence questions it was raised that

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the shipbuilding strategy had been published and that he would send a

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signed copy to my honourable friend. But when cross examined, he stated

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that publication would take place in spring 2017. Will the Secretary of

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State now see which one it is. The Honourable Gentleman had a beaming

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countenance and he felt he had unearthed an honourable nugget. I am

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glad to bring a little bit of happiness to him. We will leave it

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there for now. Will the member wishing to take her seat please come

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to the table. I swear by Almighty God that I will

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be faithful and there true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen

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Elizabeth and her heirs and successors, so help me God.

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Urgent question. To have the Secretary of State for help to make

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a statement on the crisis in social care and the effect this is having

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on the NHS and on the care of vulnerable older people. I thank the

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honourable lady for raising the question today. I think all members

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of this House will agree that there are few areas of domestic policy

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which touch on so many lives. And that also important to so many of

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our constituents. I would like to start by acknowledging the work of

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over 1.4 million professional carers, the majority of whom provide

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excellent and compassionate care. I would also like to acknowledge the 6

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million in form will carers who do so much. Spending on long-term care

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in our country is more than the OECD average. It is more than in France

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and Germany. Nonetheless I accept that our system is under strain and

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that pressure has been building for some years now. In response the

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Government response to this has been to ensure that the councils have

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access to funding to increase social care spending by the end of this

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Parliament. We estimate a 5% increase in real terms. Additional

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funding comes from the better care fund, the additional better care

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fund, and changes to the precept. To put into place and enforce a robust

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regulatory system between 2014 and early next year all homes and

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providers will be inspected again. 72% are classified as good or

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outstanding. Where homes are inadequate, power is now exist to

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ensure improvement or forced the closure. These powers are being

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used. To work with local authorities to ensure the continuing market

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exists. In the last six years the total number of beds has remained

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constant. There were 40% more care providers than 2010. Finally to

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drive further and faster the integration of care and health

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systems. We have seen that the councils would do this best

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demonstrate far fewer delayed transfers than those adopting best

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practice more slowly. Any system would benefit from a higher budget

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and social care is no exception. But quality matters too. Today is not a

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budget statement nor a local Government settlement, but I wished

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to end by commending again the many hundreds of thousands of carers who

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work so hard to make the system work for so many. That was a

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disappointment. Before the Autumn Statement be debated the funding

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crisis in social care, not a strain but a crisis and the serious

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concerns expressed by local Government, health and clinical

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leaders. We called on the Government to bring forward funding to address

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the crisis. The Chancellor did not listen and did not bring forward any

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funding for social care nor mention it at all. Handy care Minister tell

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us in his response by health ministers do not stand up for

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vulnerable and older people in this country and why they do not fight

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harder to get funding for social care? Over 1 million older people

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have care needs and there is less publicly funded care than in 2010.

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There is a heavier burden on unpaid family carers. This crisis has been

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made by this Government G2 ?5 billion being cut. Does the

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Government intend to dump this funding crisis on local councils and

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to council taxpayers to increase the social care precept? That proposal

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has been called deeply flawed because local councils and the least

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deprived areas would be able to raise more than twice as much as

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those in the most deprived areas. That means that the precept would

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earn 15 pounds per head in Richmond but only 5p in Manchester. That

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would widen inequality across the country. Is it the care Minister's

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intention to support a solution that widens an equality of access and

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deny social care to hundreds of thousands of vulnerable older

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people? The honourable lady fought the last

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election on a manifesto that said not one penny more for oakal

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Government spending, that's what she fought the last election on. She's

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made a statement today and she's against the change to the

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pre-September that we brought in in the Spending Review. She talked

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about being against taxpayers and council tax payers having to meet

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the cost of increased social care. That rather begs the question who

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she thinks should be paying for it - is it borrowing or is it the magic

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money tree? She made the point Mr Speaker, she made the point about

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the precept, she said that the precept increases inequalities

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because some councils could raise more. That would be true except for

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the fact that the better care fund is distributed in a way that

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balances that. That is precisely what we do.

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THE SPEAKER: I should advise the House that there are of course,

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three urgent questions to be taken today. I want all to be properly

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contributed to. It is important that we also provide time for subsequent

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business. I looking at finishing by 5. 30pm or there abouts. Perhaps

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colleagues could tailor their contributions accordingly. I hope in

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looking at coordinated policy across Government, the minister will look

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not only at good join up between the department for health and the local

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Government and other policies like lifetime homes, family strengthening

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and employment policies, all of which will help us deal with these

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issues. Could he give encouragement on that score? I thank him for that

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question. He's quite right, there's a whole raft of measures that need

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to be taken on envelope careers and in terms of the Holy Grail of better

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integration of health and social care funding and we are pursuing

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that vigorously. Obviously this was the substance of the letter from the

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Health Select Committee to the Chancellor not actually calling for

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extra money for the NHS, but particularly for the capital budgets

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and social care, because basically, the back pressure from social care

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is actually what is causing the NHS to struggle. I totally agree with

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the minister with regards integration and in Scotland, where

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we have the integrated joint boards, it has brought a change quicker than

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we would heaped. Our delayed discharges are down 9% a year, in

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England up over 30%. This isn't something that's easy and it's

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something that needs to be funded. We've debated the STP plans, which

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could be the basis for the future integration of the NHS. But all we

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hear is within those plans community hospitals being shut, losing the

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opportunity to have step-up and step-down beds, A being shut and

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beds within hospitals being shut. This is the wrong way round. STPs

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could work, but they can't start with the number they must reach.

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They have to design themselves around a service that keeps patients

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at home and keeps them well. Mr Speaker, the honourable lady made

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two points both of which I agree with. The first was in Scotland 9%

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reduction in delayed transfers of care is also true, in England many

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parts of our system, particularly those that have integrated most

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quickly have achieved reductions of that amount and more. In terms of

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the SDP, she is right that the SDP is part of process of us

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re-engineering the system and adult social care and the integration of

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that care is a big part this afternoon. We need to make sure we

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deliver. Would the minister agrow with me that better integration

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could be driven by better patient data and it could help show us where

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quality practices exist and how to spread this best practice. I would

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agree. I had a discussion with the CQC with that subject in terms of

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the data set of what is reported. I'm hoping over the next months and

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years we can make improvement on how we do that. I think the minister has

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completely missed the point raised by my honourable friend from the

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frontbench about the unfairness of asking councils to deal with the

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problem. A 1% rise in council tax in Doncaster raises 21% less than a

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council in the Prime Minister's constituency. Surely that means that

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the problem is being pushed onto the areas that can least afford it.

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She'll be right, I would have missed the point had I not said that issue

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she has raised is addressed by the way that we distribute the better

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care fund, which use as formula which takes into account relative

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need. The The minister will know following recent events this issue

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is something I've taken a particular interest in. Would he agree with me

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that saying it's just about money is too simplistic. We see a wide

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sprerite of quality of care from homes under the same fund being

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packages. Does he also agree that we need to improve the inspection

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regime to ensure that concerns are take be seriously? Mr Speaker, I do

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agree with that. I commend the member for the work he did on the

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morely home in his constituency, which had significant issues and now

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which has been substantially closed down. He is right in saying the

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issues there were not principally about money, but about quality and

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people doing their jobs properly. Does the minister share the view of

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the Care Quality Commission that the system is close to tipping point?

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And does he understand the impact that has on very many frail, elderly

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people? Does he not agree now is the time to bury our differences, work

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together to come up with a long-term settlement for the health and care

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system? Mr Speaker, today is not the day in which we are going to

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announce a royal commission on the funding of care into the future. But

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I do agree that it's important that we do put care funding onto a better

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structural basis into the future and the honourable member is right to

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say that. I applaud this Government's

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commitment to the 10 polled about to the NHS by 2020. Does my right

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honourable friend agrow that social care and health care must be better

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integrated across the whole country. Somerset County Council

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sustainability and transformation plan has this at its heart. It's a

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good model. Would my right honourable friend agrow models like

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this should be copied, but they must be given the tools? The SDP for

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Somerset is excellent in this regard. She is right to raise it.

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She's also right to emphasise again integration of health and social

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care is the Holy Grail of this. Those health systems which do it

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best are making a huge difference. Is he aware that the local

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authorities in the past few years, let's say in Derbyshire have lost

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more than ?200 million that have been promulgated by the Government.

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On top of which they're closing community hospitals in Derbyshire,

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with a total of more than 100 beds between them. Does it make sense

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when these community hospitals bear the burden of looking after people

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that can't occupy hospital beds? Mr Speaker, he is right to say that

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there have been changes to the funding regime. But the facts are,

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Mr Speaker, the facts are that councils such as Knowsley, St Helens

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have got virtually no delayed transfers of care, and they have the

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same budget issues as his own council. With an ageing population

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the welcome introduction of the national living rage and rightly

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greater expectations on service proz vieded is causing exponential growth

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in the care sector. Whilst the council tax cap has delivered

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financial discipline we have to be realistic. I would urge the minister

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to explore further flexibility with the social care preset. I said

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during mys answer to the honourable lady that today is not a spending

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statement, it's not a statement on the local Government settlement

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either. I will just leave it at that.

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May I say to the minister, it would be a huge mistake to think he can

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plug the gaping hole in care funding with the social care precept alone.

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The poorest areas, will be least likely to be able to get social care

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by raising council tax. If not today, when will the minister come

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to the House with a plan to solve this crisis and help families, care

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users and the NHS? Mr Speaker, I have acknowledged that the system is

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under pressure. I have acknowledged that different councils respond to

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that pressure in a different way. For example, next year, 16/17,

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Leicester council have increased their care budget by 7% in real

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terms. Shroud waving by the Labour Party is

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particularly depressing given that they did virtually nothing on this

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issue in 13 years in power. Would my honourable friend agrow with me that

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it's important to use fiscal incentives in respect of both DCLG

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and the Treasury to encourage more care and to iron out disparity in

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care delivered between different local authorities. Yes Mr Speaker,

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there is disparity. In the marketplace and between local

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authorities. We need to do everything we can, working with the

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CQC to ensure that is eliminated. Doesn't the minister realise that

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his statement today is totally inadequate to the crisis in social

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care, that the complacency he shows is totally unrealistic to what is

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happening in the country and what we require is a very different response

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than what he's given today? I'm tempted to just say no, I don't

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acknowledge that. I make the point again, I am not complacent. We

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understand that the system is under pressure. And we acknowledge and

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accept that. That is not the same, Mr Speaker, as saying that there

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aren't things we can do in terms of quality provision to manage it

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better. That's what we're going to do.

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Adult social care accounts for 45% of Lancashire County Council's

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budget, that's a growing share. The key to addressing this challenge

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would be the better integration of to health and social care to manage

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demand. What funding is provided to Lancashire County Council to allow

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that transformation to take place? Mr Speaker the better care fund is

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predicated on the assumption that we will driver that integration. I make

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the point that many councils right across the country, not just

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Leicester, for example, have increased and will increase their

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social care budget in real terms next year. Something like 40%.

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By 2020 we will see a national short fall of 2. ?2.6 billion in adult

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social care funding. If the Government is forcing councils to

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increase council tax, what percentage would they be expected to

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increase it by? And what of this percentage increase would go solely

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to adult social care services? And how with the Government ensure this?

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Mr Speaker, the Spending Review increased the precept by 2%. That's

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what we brought in at that time. As I said earlier, this is not the

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local Government settlement. I've got nothing to say on council tax.

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Er Mr Speaker, many people on both sides of the House feel that the

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social care system is broken because there are councils involved and

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Health Service involved. Would be it be a very good idea, Sir, if the

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Secretary of State or minister could work across the House, with goodwill

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on both sides, rather than this petty point scoring from the other

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side, no, this is much more serious than politics. We've got to get this

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right for future generations. Shouldn't we work together and come

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up with a solution that all sides of the House can agree on? Mr Speaker,

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he is right that this whole system is more important than politics.

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There is nothing I said, nothing more important to more people and

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more old people in terms of the dignity and quality of their lives

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than getting this right. It's essential that we do that.

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THE SPEAKER: An eagle. LAUGHTER

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Liverpool City Council has seen ?330 million cut from its budget since

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2010. 58% of all its money. A further ?90 million has to be found

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by 2020. Can he say in that circumstance how it is going to be

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possible for Liverpool City Council to increase, as we all wish it

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could, the money that it spends on adult Social Services, when it

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actually already spends more on adult social care, ?146 million than

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it can raise in council tax? Mr Speaker, it is not my role to

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lecture Liverpool City Council in how to deliver adult social care. I

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make the point though that Knowsley and St Helens, very close to

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Liverpool, have virtually no delayed transfers of care. Some best

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practice sharing would be in order possibly.

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THE SPEAKER: I don't want to see a festering sibling rivalry. I think

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it's right that you chose the younger before the older because you

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did the opposite last time you had the choice. In the whirl, we have an

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above average number of older people, yet we have a very low

:22:20.:22:24.

council tax base, which means we cannot raise council tax, raise

:22:25.:22:27.

enough money to deal with the short falls in adult social care. The

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minister knows, ?5 billion has been cut from social care since 2010. His

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better care budget is 3. 5 billion, so there are huge issues here. Why

:22:39.:22:42.

wasn't this mentioned in the Autumn Statement? And what is the

:22:43.:22:46.

Government's response to this ongoing crisis?

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I made the point already and I will make it again, we acknowledge that

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the precept is uneven when it was announced in the spending review,

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which is why the additional better care fund is allocated on a basis

:23:03.:23:06.

that remedies that. I just want to talk about the

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remedies. I put in a FOIA about the weekly residential rate across every

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council in the country. Buckinghamshire gets ?615 a week,

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while Birmingham, where my grandparents died, gets ?436 and has

:23:36.:23:40.

to make an additional charge of ?55 a week to the residents who live

:23:41.:23:44.

there, who are in no doubt Pooler than those who live in

:23:45.:23:48.

Buckinghamshire. Does that sound like a discrepancy that is being

:23:49.:24:02.

solved by the system? The reports in terms of quality for Buckinghamshire

:24:03.:24:06.

and Birmingham are things that we look at across the system and we are

:24:07.:24:11.

not finding geographic variation based on those statistics. That is

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the fact of the matter. I have heard nothing from the Minister this

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afternoon to demonstrate that he understands the severity of the

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situation facing social care. A cross-party group of MPs met last

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week and they said that they need one point the billion pounds to

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stabilise social care in this country and they pointed out that

:24:39.:24:45.

that money cannot be raised by council tax, especially because it

:24:46.:24:49.

raises the least money in the areas where it is most needed. In terms of

:24:50.:24:57.

council tax increases there has already been an announcement that

:24:58.:24:59.

the better care fund will deliver more money from next April and it

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will deliver more money after that. During this Parliament and will be a

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5% increase in money spent on adult social care. That is from next

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April. Can the Minister tell me how it is feared this year that the area

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I represent, the 19th most disadvantage is the country, will

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only be able to raise half of what an area like Kingston upon Thames

:25:32.:25:38.

can raise. We can raise ?5, they can raise more than that. How can that

:25:39.:25:45.

be fair? 42% of councils this year are increasing their adult social

:25:46.:25:51.

care funding in real terms. In terms of the discrepancy caused by the

:25:52.:25:55.

precept, it is addressed by the way that we allocate the additional

:25:56.:26:00.

better care fund component and a formula that is used for that. I

:26:01.:26:08.

think a menace recognises there is a crisis and he recognises that the

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precept will not address that alone, so does he agree with the former

:26:14.:26:17.

Health Secretary Jenny said this morning it was a missed opportunity

:26:18.:26:25.

not to invest in social care? I am not giving the Autumn Statement, but

:26:26.:26:31.

I will say that there is a 5% increase in real terms in social

:26:32.:26:37.

adult funding in the course of this Parliament and 42% of councils are

:26:38.:26:41.

increasing the budget in real terms this year. I think the Minister

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needs to recognise that it is not just that it can be more difficult

:26:52.:26:54.

for them to raise the money, as we have already heard from our

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colleagues, they are also demographic concerns that mean it is

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more challenging to actually deliver health services in cities like

:27:10.:27:15.

Bristol. We're looking at ?92 million cuts that we need to find

:27:16.:27:20.

over the next five years. Could he come to Bristol to top to the mayor

:27:21.:27:23.

and to hear about the challenges we are facing? Cities do have issues

:27:24.:27:29.

with delivering social care, but so do rural areas that often have older

:27:30.:27:37.

people which can absorb a lot of costs. The truth is that the whole

:27:38.:27:43.

system is under pressure, including in Bristol and weird knowledge that

:27:44.:27:47.

and we are increasing the total spent by 5% during the course of

:27:48.:27:53.

this Parliament. We have heard from honourable friends about the

:27:54.:27:58.

failings of the preset model to address this issue, but what about

:27:59.:28:01.

councils like Cambridgeshire but chose not even to make the meagre

:28:02.:28:07.

resources available, they left the local hospital but a -year-old pupil

:28:08.:28:12.

with nowhere to go. Will the Government stand up for older people

:28:13.:28:18.

in Cambridgeshire? That was a decision made by Cambridge Council.

:28:19.:28:22.

There were other councils that made a similar choice, not to increase

:28:23.:28:29.

the precept, and not to feel as if they needed to use that money for

:28:30.:28:34.

adult social care. That is a choice that local councils have and they

:28:35.:28:40.

must take it to their voters. Sheffield is about to lose its last

:28:41.:28:46.

emergency respite care for complex dementia need patience. They cannot

:28:47.:28:52.

be cared for in the community. Sheffield has the second largest

:28:53.:28:57.

better care fund in the country. Is today not the day for the Minister

:28:58.:29:00.

to announce a row commission, when will he act? I am not aware of the

:29:01.:29:09.

specific issues she has raised in terms of the respite care in

:29:10.:29:13.

Sheffield, but I would be happy to discuss that with her. I can only

:29:14.:29:18.

repeat that today is not the day that we will announce a Royal

:29:19.:29:24.

commission into funding. Providers in my constituency tell me that they

:29:25.:29:28.

are losing staff to a star because they cannot compete with pay and

:29:29.:29:32.

conditions because the council cannot commission care at a price

:29:33.:29:37.

that enables them to do so. What will the Minister do to stem this

:29:38.:29:41.

haemorrhaging of care workers from the profession and the provision of

:29:42.:29:47.

care? There is an issue with that and that issue exists in various

:29:48.:29:50.

parts of the country and we acknowledge and need to manage it.

:29:51.:29:56.

But we also need to manage the total number of beds that are in the

:29:57.:30:00.

system and the total number of domiciliary providers in the system.

:30:01.:30:05.

The total number of beds is the same as it was six years ago. The total

:30:06.:30:10.

number of providers is about 40% higher. The Minister in the debate

:30:11.:30:19.

on the 16th of November said that he can gradually to its some councils

:30:20.:30:24.

were being two of the best performing in the country on delayed

:30:25.:30:26.

transfers incurring and increasing their budgets. But there is still a

:30:27.:30:31.

massive shortfall because the precept was nowhere near meeting the

:30:32.:30:37.

demand for services in the area. There is no coherent national

:30:38.:30:42.

strategy or funding package in place to solve the crisis we are facing.

:30:43.:30:50.

It will tip over. The Honourable Gentleman is right that I did

:30:51.:30:56.

congratulate to councils for having very low delayed transfers of care.

:30:57.:31:02.

The fact that they are doing that in spite of the budget constraints

:31:03.:31:04.

mentioned demonstrates that this is not just about money it is about

:31:05.:31:08.

quality, leadership and best practice. The chief executive of

:31:09.:31:15.

care for England and said that under the current regime around 40% of

:31:16.:31:19.

care services will no longer be viable so they will be lost. When

:31:20.:31:23.

does the Minister intend to do something about this crisis? The

:31:24.:31:32.

number of beds available in the system is around about the same as

:31:33.:31:36.

it was six years ago, but there is an issue with managing the financial

:31:37.:31:40.

performance of significant care providers and one thing that we

:31:41.:31:46.

brought in two years ago is a process where they look at the

:31:47.:31:50.

financial performance of the biggest providers to give us warning of

:31:51.:31:54.

issues that might arise. We are keen on making sure that happens. This is

:31:55.:32:03.

a national crisis that the Government has ignored for years. As

:32:04.:32:07.

the Minister said there is no issue that cannot be solved by throwing

:32:08.:32:11.

money at it. Is not about time that he put his where his mouth is? I

:32:12.:32:19.

think she is paraphrasing my opening statement in accurately. I said

:32:20.:32:23.

money would help with any system but the issues here are about quality

:32:24.:32:26.

and leadership and about best practice. All of those things are

:32:27.:32:31.

within the remit of my job and I'm pursuing them. Everything we have

:32:32.:32:39.

heard today seems to want to deny that the council tax precept is no

:32:40.:32:43.

solution to the problem and that it makes it worse. Is he aware that the

:32:44.:32:49.

Association of directors of adult social services has said that the

:32:50.:32:54.

council tax precept will raise least money in areas of greatest need

:32:55.:32:58.

which means it will widen inequality. If that is what the

:32:59.:33:01.

experts as saying why does the Minister think he knows better? I've

:33:02.:33:07.

discussed this and other issues often. It is true that the precept

:33:08.:33:15.

if it was only the precept would result in an uneven distribution of

:33:16.:33:20.

revenue, that is why the additional care funds are allocated using a

:33:21.:33:28.

formula which takes that into account. Urgent question. Will the

:33:29.:33:40.

Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport make an urgent

:33:41.:33:46.

statement on 21st-century Fox's bid to take over the remaining 61% of

:33:47.:33:50.

Sky? As the House will know this guy -- House will now Sky are trying to

:33:51.:34:11.

organise a takeover with Fox. 21st-century Fox have agreed on

:34:12.:34:17.

price but the offer is subject to further discussion and Sky has said

:34:18.:34:21.

that there is no certainty and offer will be made. The terms will need to

:34:22.:34:27.

be agreed by the shareholders of Sky and the announcement also said that

:34:28.:34:34.

21st-century Fox must set out their intentions by the 6th of January

:34:35.:34:40.

2000 and 17. The Secretary of State has the power to intervene in

:34:41.:34:44.

certain media mergers in the interests of public interest. Under

:34:45.:34:51.

that act there is an indication of how an intervention will take place

:34:52.:34:57.

in practice when considering cases. Any transaction will be looked at on

:34:58.:35:03.

a case-by-case basis. The guidance makes clear that the Secretary of

:35:04.:35:06.

State will aim to take an initial decision on whether to intervene

:35:07.:35:12.

within ten working days of formal notification of the merger to the

:35:13.:35:16.

competition authorities or offer being brought to her attention. No

:35:17.:35:21.

such formal notification has been received. The role of the Secretary

:35:22.:35:27.

of State here is that she acts independently and is not subject in

:35:28.:35:33.

proper influence. It would be improper of me to comment on this

:35:34.:35:38.

proposed bill. Given the role of the Secretary of State, the department

:35:39.:35:42.

is putting in place procedures to ensure that her decision-making

:35:43.:35:46.

process is fair and impartial, should a decision be necessary. This

:35:47.:35:50.

will include guidance for other ministers and officials and for any

:35:51.:35:56.

other interested parties. We are aware of the wider interest of the

:35:57.:35:59.

department in these matters and we will keep the House up-to-date as

:36:00.:36:02.

appropriate within the legal framework.

:36:03.:36:18.

And you bet has been revealed. In the past the House is United 's

:36:19.:36:27.

behind a motion calling on Rupert Murdoch to withdraw his bid. The

:36:28.:36:31.

concerns in 2011 were not about the serious wrongdoing that is being

:36:32.:36:35.

done in the Ford hacking scandal, but also that the concentration of

:36:36.:36:38.

media power and media ownership in fewer hands. I have we read that

:36:39.:36:45.

motion, which we all supported, and nowhere does it say that we should

:36:46.:36:50.

sit quietly for five years and come back when we had forgotten about it.

:36:51.:36:57.

We have not forgotten about it, Mr Speaker, and we have not forgotten

:36:58.:37:00.

that when the Prime Minister stood on the steps in the summer, she said

:37:01.:37:08.

that when we were taking the calls we would think not of the powerful

:37:09.:37:12.

but of the people. We need to know whose side the Government is on. Of,

:37:13.:37:19.

assessed that the deal might operate against the public interest. For the

:37:20.:37:22.

Minister commit the Government to issuing a public interest

:37:23.:37:29.

intervention notice and referring the better off,? Back in 2012, of

:37:30.:37:37.

con's assessment of James Murdoch was that he repeatedly fell short of

:37:38.:37:42.

the exercise of responsibility to be expected of him as CEO and chairman.

:37:43.:37:48.

The Prime Minister met Rupert Murdoch in September. Was the dead

:37:49.:37:52.

discussed then and did she give him any assurances about the bid or

:37:53.:37:58.

discuss his future support for her fall for her Government. I

:37:59.:38:04.

understand this is a quasi-judicial decision and the words that the

:38:05.:38:07.

Minister says today will be scrutinised by some of the highest

:38:08.:38:12.

paid lawyers on two continents. Nonetheless, kinky assurers that the

:38:13.:38:17.

Secretary of State is prepared to stand up to powerful interests and

:38:18.:38:22.

ensure that this deal is properly and independently scrutinised?

:38:23.:38:26.

I'm grateful for the acknowledgement by the frontbench opposite that due

:38:27.:38:32.

to the quasi-judicial nature of this decision procedures have to be

:38:33.:38:36.

followed properly. That's what we fully intend to do. Formal

:38:37.:38:41.

notification of this proposal has not been received, so of course, the

:38:42.:38:45.

Secretary of State can't make a decision prior to that. As I said,

:38:46.:38:49.

the rules are that she should aim to take such a decision within ten days

:38:50.:38:58.

of formal notification. Can I thank the minister for his answer. Also

:38:59.:39:03.

recognise the quasi-judicial nature of the decision the Secretary of

:39:04.:39:08.

State has to make. But let me ask two technical questions, since the

:39:09.:39:18.

bid in 2010 which was withdrawn, the newspaper operations from the

:39:19.:39:21.

broadcast and film operations. Can I ask the minister if the Secretary of

:39:22.:39:25.

State or how much weight the Secretary of State will give to that

:39:26.:39:34.

separation in determining any questions plurality in the UK media?

:39:35.:39:38.

And given the separation has happened, to some extent, how much

:39:39.:39:42.

weight the Secretary of State will place on that, when determining

:39:43.:39:47.

whether or not to issue a public interest intervention notice? The

:39:48.:39:52.

plurality rules are clearly set out, as he knows. The Secretary of State

:39:53.:39:56.

will follow them very carefully in this determination. Does my right

:39:57.:40:03.

honourable friend accept that in the event of a bid, there is a strong

:40:04.:40:08.

case for asking the regulators to provide advice about any concerns on

:40:09.:40:12.

competition on plurality grounds. Would he agrow that this essentially

:40:13.:40:18.

would be an investment decision rather than acquisition since 21st

:40:19.:40:21.

century fox have effective control of Sky? Would he also agrow since

:40:22.:40:26.

the last bid, which was approved by Ofcom, subject to certain remedies,

:40:27.:40:30.

there has been a considerable increase in competition in the paid

:40:31.:40:35.

TV market? Of course, this decision has to be take anyone the context of

:40:36.:40:41.

the world as we find it. The situation as we find it in terms of

:40:42.:40:50.

ownership is that 21st century fox owned 39% of Sky. The notification

:40:51.:40:54.

to the Stock Exchange on Friday was about the proposal to buy the other

:40:55.:40:59.

61%. Those issues will be taken into account when the decision is made.

:41:00.:41:07.

Can I say that I understand the minister's complex position on these

:41:08.:41:11.

matters, but can I ask him to take into account the fact that compared

:41:12.:41:15.

to five years ago, when the House passed the motion that it did

:41:16.:41:19.

unanimously saying the bid shouldn't go ahead, we still have issues of

:41:20.:41:23.

phone hacking unresolved in the courts, and we still have a system

:41:24.:41:28.

of self-regulation that has not satisfied the victims of phone

:41:29.:41:32.

hacking. Can I ask him to bear in mind this question: What has really

:41:33.:41:36.

changed since the House passed the motion five years ago? In my view,

:41:37.:41:41.

very little. That is why I believe this bid should be rejected. Well,

:41:42.:41:49.

it's enjoyable to be seen at the rerun of one of the right honourable

:41:50.:41:54.

gentleman's greatest hits. He says that the position, my position in

:41:55.:41:58.

this today is complex, actually, the position is very simple. We haven't

:41:59.:42:02.

yet received a formal notification. When we do, the Secretary of State

:42:03.:42:07.

will have ten days to consider under the enterprise act and other

:42:08.:42:15.

legislation whether it is necessary to take action and that process will

:42:16.:42:19.

start when a formal notification is received. At this early stage, is

:42:20.:42:28.

the department giving consideration as to whether some of the conditions

:42:29.:42:32.

attached to the deal last time, such as the guarantee of editorial

:42:33.:42:36.

independence by Sky News will be required this time round given the

:42:37.:42:39.

restructuring of the Murdoch companies? The notification was

:42:40.:42:46.

given to the stock market on Friday morning. No formal notification to

:42:47.:42:51.

competition authorities has been received. So I would say and I think

:42:52.:42:57.

it's fair to say that this is quite early on in this process, but all

:42:58.:43:01.

things that are appropriate to be considered will be considered. What

:43:02.:43:07.

differences can the minister see between this bid an the one that was

:43:08.:43:16.

referred by Vince Cable in 2010 to the competition authorities? It's

:43:17.:43:20.

quite hard until we get formal notification to see what the shape

:43:21.:43:24.

of the proposals will be, then we will have a look at them.

:43:25.:43:32.

I congratulate the Shadow minister on this urgent question. I

:43:33.:43:37.

completely understand the minister's problem and not judging an

:43:38.:43:39.

application that hasn't been notified. Would he take from this

:43:40.:43:44.

debate that there is a concern across the House about this issue

:43:45.:43:48.

and would he undertake to keep the House fully informed because I think

:43:49.:43:51.

that's the message that's coming across today? Yes, of course. I'd be

:43:52.:43:57.

delighted to keep the House as informed as appropriate under the

:43:58.:44:04.

legislation that this House has passed, but I apoll eyes to the

:44:05.:44:08.

House if -- apologise to the House if some remarks sound reticent, but

:44:09.:44:12.

the House will understand this is a quasi-judicial decision. The

:44:13.:44:15.

Secretary of State does not want her position to be prejudiced. I don't

:44:16.:44:20.

want to do that. But all of these considerations will be taken into

:44:21.:44:25.

account. From whom will the Secretary of State take advice about

:44:26.:44:29.

the competition implications of this bid? Of course, advice will be taken

:44:30.:44:38.

from officials in the department. Procedures are put in place to

:44:39.:44:41.

ensure no conflict of interest and that the decision is taken

:44:42.:44:47.

appropriately. I'd like to give the minister a second chance to answer

:44:48.:44:50.

the question my honourable friend from Cardiff west put to him. Did

:44:51.:44:53.

the Prime Minister discuss this deal with Murdoch in September in New

:44:54.:45:01.

York? Surely the only thing that really matters in this is the public

:45:02.:45:06.

interest, because when we had a period when one man had control of

:45:07.:45:11.

40% of the newspapers in this country, the largest daily

:45:12.:45:14.

newspaper, the largest Sunday newspaper and the largest

:45:15.:45:18.

broadcaster by far by value in this country, that poisoned the well of

:45:19.:45:22.

British politics. So I urge the Government ministers as they go

:45:23.:45:27.

through this process in the quasi-judicial manner that she

:45:28.:45:30.

suggests that they just keep that very close to the front of their

:45:31.:45:36.

mind. Well, I'm very grateful for the

:45:37.:45:42.

wisdom of the honourable gentleman, who I know has taken a great

:45:43.:45:46.

interest in these affairs over a very long period of time. Over 8,000

:45:47.:45:53.

people work at Sky's headquarters in my constituency. Many there will be

:45:54.:45:57.

concerned about this news, particularly those who work in

:45:58.:46:02.

journalism. Is the minister at all concerned that through this deal one

:46:03.:46:06.

man will take 100% ownership of one of the UK's biggest media outlets? I

:46:07.:46:12.

just want to be clear that the Secretary of State's decision in

:46:13.:46:16.

this area relates to media plurality. Of course, there are

:46:17.:46:24.

competition issues and labour market issues. But the enterprise act is

:46:25.:46:30.

clear about the breadth of the decision that she will take and

:46:31.:46:33.

she'll follow those procedures very carefully. I would echo what the

:46:34.:46:43.

honourable member for Ron that said about -- rounda said about the

:46:44.:46:50.

public interest and concern. Anyone who watched the American elections

:46:51.:46:53.

has real concerns about the way Fox News operates. I would urge him to

:46:54.:46:58.

bear in mind in the public's mind this man is not a fit and proper

:46:59.:47:05.

person to have control of our media. Well, what I can assure her is that

:47:06.:47:10.

the Secretary of State is a fit and proper person to take this decision.

:47:11.:47:17.

Members across the House have made their views clear and we will

:47:18.:47:22.

operate carefully with appropriate guidance in place, both to ministers

:47:23.:47:25.

and officials, to make sure that this decision is taken in the proper

:47:26.:47:29.

way. THE SPEAKER: Order. Urgent question

:47:30.:47:35.

Mr Keith Vaz. Will the minister provide an answer

:47:36.:47:39.

to the urgent question of which I have given him notice. Thank you

:47:40.:47:48.

very much Mr Speaker. As the Foreign Secretary has made clear during his

:47:49.:47:53.

trip to the region this weekend, Britain supports the Saudi-led

:47:54.:47:57.

campaign to restore the reiate mat government in Yemen. Ultimately a

:47:58.:48:01.

political solution is the best way to bring long-term stability to

:48:02.:48:06.

Yemen and end the conflict. We continue to have deep concerns for

:48:07.:48:10.

the suffering of the people of Yemen, which is why making progress

:48:11.:48:16.

on Peace Talks is the top priority. As with all negotiations of this

:48:17.:48:20.

kind, they will not be quick or indeed easy and a lot of tough

:48:21.:48:25.

discussions will need to be had. The United Nationses has -- the United

:48:26.:48:30.

Nations has drawn up a road map to end the conflict with the steps the

:48:31.:48:34.

parties must take. The UK is playing a central role in this process. The

:48:35.:48:39.

Foreign Secretary hosted the last meeting of the quad, comprising of

:48:40.:48:44.

Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, the United States and the

:48:45.:48:50.

United Kingdom, which the UN Special Envoy attended on October 16. In

:48:51.:48:55.

addition, Mr Speaker, I travelled to Riyadh on 20th November to discuss

:48:56.:48:59.

the road map with the president there and seek ways to find a

:49:00.:49:03.

political solution to the conflict. Most recently, the Prime Minister

:49:04.:49:06.

and the Foreign Secretary raised Yemen during their visit to the

:49:07.:49:13.

region and I met with the vice-president, this Saturday. As

:49:14.:49:18.

the House will be aware, Yemen is one of the most serious humanitarian

:49:19.:49:24.

crises in the world. So in addition to our considerable diplomatic

:49:25.:49:27.

efforts to try and bring an end to the conflict, the United Kingdom is

:49:28.:49:32.

the fourth largest donor to Yemen, committed ?100 million to Yemen for

:49:33.:49:40.

2016 and 2017. UK aid is making a difference in Yemen. Last year we

:49:41.:49:46.

helped more tan 1. 3 million Yemenis with food, medical supplies, water

:49:47.:49:49.

and emergency shelter. The situation in Yemen is indeed grave. It is why

:49:50.:49:54.

we are debating this matter today. There are now plans for the quad to

:49:55.:49:58.

meet in the very near future, for us to move this important process

:49:59.:50:00.

forward. THE SPEAKER: I appreciate the

:50:01.:50:10.

pithiness from the member, but in the name of transparency for those

:50:11.:50:14.

attending to our proceedings from outside the neighbour, I should have

:50:15.:50:18.

that the question is to ask the Secretary of State if he'll make a

:50:19.:50:22.

statement to clarify the United Kingdom's policy on the conflict in

:50:23.:50:28.

Yemen. Mr Keith Vaz. I'm grateful to you for granting this urgents

:50:29.:50:32.

question and to the minister for his answer. Until now, our foreign

:50:33.:50:38.

policy objectives in Yemen have been crystal clear, pursuing a secession

:50:39.:50:43.

of hostilities and backing a UN-mandated intervention. Last week,

:50:44.:50:48.

the Foreign Secretary was absolutely right to speak of his profound

:50:49.:50:55.

concern for the Yemeni people and correct to say This Is What You Came

:50:56.:50:59.

For conflict could not -- to say that this conflict could not be

:51:00.:51:04.

solved by force alone. His words revealed an inconsistency in our

:51:05.:51:08.

foreign policy, which if not addressed immediately, threatens to

:51:09.:51:11.

wreck everything that we are trying to accomplish. Please confirm that

:51:12.:51:18.

we would never be involved in any puppeteering or proxy wars anywhere

:51:19.:51:25.

in the world, including in Yemen. Our influence and credibility as an

:51:26.:51:28.

honest broker is now being seriously questioned. When we criticise

:51:29.:51:34.

Russian's bombing of ahopee, the Russians -- Aleppo, the Russians are

:51:35.:51:38.

accusing us of supporting the same it thing in Yemen. Can the minister

:51:39.:51:43.

clarify that our objective is an immediate ceasefire and can he lay

:51:44.:51:47.

out the detail on how we will get to that position? As the Foreign

:51:48.:51:52.

Secretary has said, we hold the pens on Yemen at the United Nations.

:51:53.:51:56.

There is already a draft Security Council resolution calling for an

:51:57.:52:01.

immediate ceasefire, resumption of Peace Talks and humanitarian access.

:52:02.:52:06.

Where is this resolution now? Will it be tabled before the Security

:52:07.:52:11.

Council before the end of the year? We must not fiddle as Yemen burns.

:52:12.:52:17.

On Saturday Islamic State bombed a military camp, killing 35 soldiers.

:52:18.:52:23.

The UN humanitarian coordinator Stephen O'Brien calls Yemen a

:52:24.:52:28.

man-made, brutal, humanitarian disaster, with four fifths of the

:52:29.:52:31.

population in desperate need of emergency aid. On Wednesday, the

:52:32.:52:36.

House, including the minister, will show their support for the

:52:37.:52:41.

incredible work of a humanitarian agency's Yemen day. Today the

:52:42.:52:45.

Disasters Emergency Committee announced a long overdue emergency

:52:46.:52:49.

appeal, but if the fighting doesn't stop, this will not be enough. The

:52:50.:52:55.

Government must speak with one voice and with one aim for Yemen, that

:52:56.:52:59.

should be an immediate ceasefire. Anything else, Mr Speaker, only

:53:00.:53:05.

plays into the hands of terrorist organisations in, damaging our

:53:06.:53:07.

diplomacy and increases the suffering of the Yemeni people.

:53:08.:53:17.

Can I pay tribute to the continued work and interests that he has in

:53:18.:53:23.

this matter and bringing this matter to the House. I can confirm that we

:53:24.:53:29.

remain resolute in working towards ACC ocean of hostilities and working

:53:30.:53:34.

with the United Nations supporting the UN envoy. I agree with him that

:53:35.:53:40.

we will not win this by military means alone. We need a long-term

:53:41.:53:46.

political solution to a country that has been fragmented, as he knows,

:53:47.:53:54.

even going back to its start. We should take a lead on this matter as

:53:55.:53:58.

well as being a permanent member of the United Nations as well.

:53:59.:54:04.

Humanitarian access is vital. I made it very clear that we are investing

:54:05.:54:08.

more funds to make sure we can support the UN agencies and others.

:54:09.:54:14.

A resolution that he touches on a still being discussed in New York as

:54:15.:54:18.

we speak and the meeting that will take these matters further is coming

:54:19.:54:25.

up very soon. He compares Yemen and the conflict in Syria. I make it

:54:26.:54:33.

clear that support for the president has the backing of the United

:54:34.:54:37.

Nations to the resolution. There is a legitimate call for supporting the

:54:38.:54:42.

president and the work he has done. Had that not come for, they would

:54:43.:54:48.

have pushed much further down through the capital, and the braids

:54:49.:54:57.

have had a full-scale civil war. In contrast to rush out there is no UN

:54:58.:55:00.

resolution to support their involvement and they are supporting

:55:01.:55:04.

a brutal regime that has used chemical weapons on its own people

:55:05.:55:09.

and has compounded the situation. The two cannot be compared. Britain

:55:10.:55:17.

remains resolute to support the president and the United Nations and

:55:18.:55:21.

the envoy in bringing the necessary stakeholders back to the table and I

:55:22.:55:25.

hope we will be seeing some development in the near future. I

:55:26.:55:35.

have just come down from the joint Committee on the national security

:55:36.:55:40.

strategy. Can I ask my honourable friend not only to work to get a

:55:41.:55:45.

ceasefire between the competing parties at the top level but also to

:55:46.:55:51.

make sure that the work of the International agencies is engaged

:55:52.:55:56.

with the subsidiary interests in Yemen, and nation of enormous

:55:57.:56:03.

complexity. Where we don't just solve the political issues at the

:56:04.:56:06.

top level and ignore the consequences that may flow at a

:56:07.:56:13.

regional or local level. My honourable friend is right to point

:56:14.:56:16.

out the complexities of Yemen and what is going on there. On the face

:56:17.:56:22.

of it there are diffuse these against President Hardy. But those

:56:23.:56:27.

who know the country understand it is a complex country with tribal

:56:28.:56:33.

people who are not supportive of any side and loyalties moved depending

:56:34.:56:38.

on funds, weapons and interest. It is complicated. The Right Honourable

:56:39.:56:44.

Gentleman who raises this question spoke of an attack that took place

:56:45.:56:47.

at the weekend. Reports are suggesting it was Daesh who are

:56:48.:56:59.

responsible for this. Daesh are taking advantage of the vacuum of

:57:00.:57:03.

governments and that is all the more reason why we are encouraging the

:57:04.:57:09.

organisations to come to the table. My friend is right to say that

:57:10.:57:12.

coordination of humanitarian aid is needed. The port is currently under

:57:13.:57:20.

his take control. There are ships queuing up with humanitarian aids

:57:21.:57:25.

that cannot get in to provide that the rest of the country. Let me

:57:26.:57:35.

start by thanking my right honourable friend for securing this

:57:36.:57:39.

urgent question. The authority and passion that he brings to the issue

:57:40.:57:43.

of Yemen is without equal in this House and for the last half year he

:57:44.:57:48.

has been consistent with his advice. We should also be clear that the

:57:49.:57:52.

difference that we have heard this week from the Government could not

:57:53.:57:57.

be more stark. In Yemen there is no consistency or principle. Last

:57:58.:58:02.

Thursday we heard the Foreign Secretary said that Saudi Arabia was

:58:03.:58:05.

fighting proxy wars in countries like Yemen. Thousands of civilians

:58:06.:58:13.

have been killed, the country's agriculture and infrastructure has

:58:14.:58:15.

been destroyed and millions are facing starvation. The Foreign

:58:16.:58:22.

Secretary was right. We say, good for you, Boris. But he has still

:58:23.:58:27.

been slapped down by Downing Street and forced to go to Riyadh to

:58:28.:58:33.

clarify his remarks and his junior ministers here today to support

:58:34.:58:37.

Saudi Arabia. He will not support our calls for an independent UN

:58:38.:58:42.

investigation into Saudi Arabia and he will continue selling them arms

:58:43.:58:48.

to prosecute its proxy wars. There is no consistency or principle, that

:58:49.:58:54.

is just more hypocrisy. There are many questions I would like to ask

:58:55.:58:58.

today but let me just ask one and it is the same that has been acid of

:58:59.:59:02.

him by the member of Leicester East to did not get an answer. For two

:59:03.:59:07.

months the UN Security Council has been waiting for the United Kingdom

:59:08.:59:14.

to present its resolution to enact a ceasefire in Yemen, to allow

:59:15.:59:19.

humanitarian access. For two months a draft resolution has been in

:59:20.:59:24.

circulation, so let me have came again, why has the resolution not

:59:25.:59:27.

been presented and who is moving it up, because the people of Yemen

:59:28.:59:35.

cannot afford any more delay. I am not sure where to start with that. I

:59:36.:59:42.

will focus on the questions that she poses rather than the political

:59:43.:59:47.

point scoring that she tries to get involved in these things. I take

:59:48.:59:53.

less and less from the point is that she makes. She is regurgitating

:59:54.:59:59.

because she has ran out of questions so she's bringing up questions from

:00:00.:00:04.

last week rather than focusing on what is needed today. I will answer

:00:05.:00:14.

all her questions. The Foreign Secretary made it clear, if she read

:00:15.:00:18.

the full passage of what he said, there are concerns about the

:00:19.:00:23.

leadership that is needed in places like Syria and Yemen that needs to

:00:24.:00:28.

be pushed forward. They need strong leadership in those places. As I

:00:29.:00:35.

said to the Right Honourable Gentleman, a resolution is being

:00:36.:00:39.

discussed, but if she is aware of the details of how these are put

:00:40.:00:43.

together, we do not do them as a paper exercise but because the work

:00:44.:00:47.

has been done to make sure it can stand. If the home-workers are done

:00:48.:00:50.

to make sure that the stakeholders are supportive of the resolution,

:00:51.:00:54.

what is the point of having the resolution other than to pat

:00:55.:00:58.

ourselves on the back and make herself look good. That is not good

:00:59.:01:04.

enough for this Government but it is not good enough. She also has not

:01:05.:01:11.

mentioned the challenges that we face with the people there

:01:12.:01:15.

themselves. It has been a difficult campaign for the coalition and they

:01:16.:01:18.

have been new in conducting sustained warfare. They have had to

:01:19.:01:24.

learn some difficult lessons. But I make it clear that they are causing

:01:25.:01:30.

problems in this country and that needs to be knowledge by this House.

:01:31.:01:36.

They have committed killings, unlawful arrests, inductions, and

:01:37.:01:44.

they have been shelling civilians they have also use landmines. This

:01:45.:01:49.

has prolonged the conflict and has brought to the table. All sides need

:01:50.:01:54.

to work with the United Nations to make sure that we can get the

:01:55.:01:58.

necessary ceasefire in place that will lead us to a UN resolution. To

:01:59.:02:09.

what extent is intransigence on the behalf of the president block to the

:02:10.:02:17.

ceasefire? The Speaker is the legitimate leader of the country at

:02:18.:02:20.

the moment and we have to work with the stakeholder he is representing

:02:21.:02:25.

to make sure that the road map is compatible with the needs and

:02:26.:02:29.

support of the people he represents. This is why be of had long

:02:30.:02:32.

discussions with him and the vice president to make sure we can bring

:02:33.:02:36.

them to the table. If I could take this as an opportunity to say thank

:02:37.:02:42.

you to the people of the man who had brought the local people/ can accept

:02:43.:02:45.

a long-term deal to take us away from military action towards

:02:46.:02:56.

political dialogue. It is regrettable that the humanitarian

:02:57.:02:58.

situation has got so bad there is had to be in an appeal, but we hope

:02:59.:03:03.

that it will be supported to the people of Yemen than one out of food

:03:04.:03:07.

in the coming months. What will the Government be doing to coordinate

:03:08.:03:12.

with responders on the ground for humanitarian response and what steps

:03:13.:03:15.

is taking to make sure that the humanitarian response is not

:03:16.:03:18.

undermined by its continued latter fear attitude to the behaviour of

:03:19.:03:26.

Saudi Arabia. While we keep hearing that UK officials are not directing

:03:27.:03:30.

operations, it makes us wonder what they are doing on the ground to make

:03:31.:03:35.

sure that humanitarian laws respected. We hear a lot about the

:03:36.:03:41.

positive relationship with Saudi Arabia, but what good is that

:03:42.:03:44.

relationship if the Government will not use its influence to prevent the

:03:45.:03:47.

killing and starvation of innocent civilians. I will start with the

:03:48.:03:55.

last point he made. I will be happy to present him with speeches that

:03:56.:04:01.

confirm not only our relationship with a close a Saudi Arabia, but

:04:02.:04:06.

frank conversations we have of them and the work we do in stopping

:04:07.:04:11.

terrorist attacks that take place, so he becomes familiar as to why

:04:12.:04:14.

this relationship is important. If we broke that relationship then the

:04:15.:04:23.

Gulf, the region and the UK could become more dangerous and I do not

:04:24.:04:26.

think that is something he would advocate. He speaks about the war

:04:27.:04:32.

itself and he been consistent on this point in the Chamber. He has

:04:33.:04:39.

concerns and I share them. I should have responded on the call for an

:04:40.:04:45.

independent investigation into the incidents that have taken place but

:04:46.:04:49.

I have made it very clear that I support this call for a UN

:04:50.:04:53.

investigation if it is deemed that the reports... If you can let me

:04:54.:05:01.

finish the point... The reports that are coming forward, which is how any

:05:02.:05:06.

country operates, those reports are not worthy then we will call for

:05:07.:05:12.

independent inquiry. The process we follow and the United States follows

:05:13.:05:18.

is that the conduct their investigations. If the

:05:19.:05:23.

investigations are found wanting and I will support the United Nations in

:05:24.:05:33.

more investigations. Could I my honourable friend what chance he

:05:34.:05:40.

would give the president is Saudi Arabia was to withdraw from its

:05:41.:05:45.

engagement, proper engagement under UN resolutions, and Yemen? My

:05:46.:05:55.

honourable friend is right in replying that was the president not

:05:56.:06:02.

to receive the support they UN Security Council that the country

:06:03.:06:06.

would be in Civil War, a breakdown in governance would incubate

:06:07.:06:15.

organisations like Daesh and Al-Qaeda and that would spell out

:06:16.:06:19.

the on the peninsula into the region. That is not something we

:06:20.:06:24.

would want to contest and it is right that the coalition was formed

:06:25.:06:28.

and that is why we support it. However we share the concerns raised

:06:29.:06:33.

in this House that the conduct of the ward is to be carefully

:06:34.:06:43.

scrutinised. On Saturday Liverpool friends of Yemen held a meeting in

:06:44.:06:48.

solidarity with the people of Yemen. We were speaking to people from

:06:49.:06:51.

Yemen and Liverpool and they fear for the likes of the people back

:06:52.:06:55.

home. This is a country on the edge of famine. I urge the Government to

:06:56.:07:02.

do everything that we can as a country to relieve the humanitarian

:07:03.:07:07.

crisis in Yemen. I said to the Minister on the independent inquiry,

:07:08.:07:13.

when will we support an independent UN inquiry into alleged violations

:07:14.:07:14.

on both sides of this conflict? We will not support an independent

:07:15.:07:23.

report until we allow the sowedians to do their reports. That's the

:07:24.:07:30.

process we face -- Saudi Arabians. They are having to learn themselves.

:07:31.:07:35.

As we know, this is a conservative country, unused to the limelight

:07:36.:07:41.

that they are thrown into. They must act responsibly and respectfully and

:07:42.:07:44.

transparently as we would in the same situation W regard to the

:07:45.:07:47.

humanitarian aid. He is absolutely right. This country and House can be

:07:48.:07:50.

proud of the work that we're doing, not just here but right across the

:07:51.:07:55.

piece. He's right to say our minister and the Secretary of State

:07:56.:08:03.

for Dyfid is engaged with this. At the UN general Assembly in September

:08:04.:08:08.

it is us who held a donor's conference to encourage other

:08:09.:08:11.

countries to match our funding to provide the support to the people of

:08:12.:08:15.

Yemen. It isn't a lack of funds that is the problem here. It's not a lack

:08:16.:08:21.

of the equipment, as a lack of peace. It's a lack of access

:08:22.:08:25.

particularly through the central port in the Red Sea. Charity

:08:26.:08:32.

agencies report that it's difficult to get into Yemen. Once in Yemen,

:08:33.:08:38.

getting aid out, because of the bureaucratic challenges, arrests of

:08:39.:08:41.

charity workers, suspension prove Graemes and difficulties in

:08:42.:08:44.

obtaining new programmes. Will my honourable friend bring this up

:08:45.:08:47.

directly with all parties in the conflict as it's the charity sector

:08:48.:08:50.

doing much of the delivery and they should be allowed to have rapid and

:08:51.:08:54.

unimpeded humanitarian access throughout the country.

:08:55.:09:00.

I think this is the point that everybody's more concerned about

:09:01.:09:04.

than most. Whilst it can take time for the both parties to come to the

:09:05.:09:07.

table and work out the details, there is a sense of urgency to make

:09:08.:09:11.

sure that the aid can get in as early as possible. That will be the

:09:12.:09:15.

focus of the next quad meeting. So, yes, we want parties to come

:09:16.:09:19.

together. But we immediately need access routes, we need the ports to

:09:20.:09:23.

be opened fully so that container ships can come in and the equipment

:09:24.:09:27.

can be distributed across the country and not through the port of

:09:28.:09:31.

Aidan, the current direction through which this material comes in. The

:09:32.:09:40.

Foreign Secretary is encurbinging transparency and honesty in foreign

:09:41.:09:42.

affairs policy, does the minister accept that signing up to the

:09:43.:09:45.

convention on cluster munitions the UK is taking a stance that cluster

:09:46.:09:55.

mew niegss is always in - therefore the use of them is legitimate as the

:09:56.:10:00.

minister does is completely contradictory and in violation of

:10:01.:10:05.

the convention that the UK always encourages Saudi Arabia not to use

:10:06.:10:08.

them. Why are the UK Government adopting this position? To make it

:10:09.:10:12.

clear, that it's only against international law if you've signed

:10:13.:10:15.

the convention. There are countries across the world that have yet to

:10:16.:10:18.

sign the convention. We have signed the convention. It's our policy to

:10:19.:10:22.

encourage others to sign the convention. I have a meeting last

:10:23.:10:27.

Sunday with all the foreign ministers of the GCC nations. I

:10:28.:10:32.

invited every single one of the GCC nations, all the Gulf countries to

:10:33.:10:38.

say please consider signing this convention. I hope we'll be able to

:10:39.:10:43.

move forward on this. I welcome the fact that the UK's

:10:44.:10:49.

humanitarian commitment to Yemen to 85 million. Will my right honourable

:10:50.:10:54.

friend confirm whether he believes that the UN general Assembly can be

:10:55.:10:58.

of more help in actively resolving this situation? I think if I

:10:59.:11:08.

understand her question correctly, whether the General Assembly is the

:11:09.:11:11.

UN Security Council, in which case where there isn't a veto. In this

:11:12.:11:16.

arena there isn't so much the challenge we face from permanent

:11:17.:11:19.

members in order to get a UN Resolution through. The important

:11:20.:11:23.

thing is if we draft a UN Resolution, it needs to work,

:11:24.:11:28.

otherwise a paper exercise. That's is the home work that our head of

:11:29.:11:31.

mission is currently doing with other nations to make sure what we

:11:32.:11:37.

write on paper will lead to the cessation of hostilities, it will

:11:38.:11:41.

lead to access to humanitarian aid. These are important otherwise the UN

:11:42.:11:45.

Security Council resolution is not worth writing. What representations

:11:46.:11:51.

has Her Majesty's Government made to the Iranian government to stop the

:11:52.:11:58.

flow of arms to the Houthis? And what representations have been made

:11:59.:12:02.

to facilitate with the Iranians the opening of the port is desperate aid

:12:03.:12:07.

can get through to the Yemenis that are suffering in this Civil War? Mr

:12:08.:12:14.

Speaker, the honourable gentleman raises a very important point - what

:12:15.:12:18.

is Iran's involvement in Yemen? Is it helpful or hindering events? The

:12:19.:12:22.

Prime Minister made this very clear, that Iran can play a constructive

:12:23.:12:26.

role in making sure weapons systems are not entering the country itself

:12:27.:12:31.

and making sure that the Houthis are encouraged to come to the table and

:12:32.:12:36.

making sure that the Red Sea has an absence of ships for those who want

:12:37.:12:40.

to arm the Houthis. We are asking Iran to recognise this.

:12:41.:12:49.

There is no doubt that this is a war of prommies in Yemen. The Foreign

:12:50.:12:53.

Secretary is absolutely right to make the crate Essex of Saudi Arabia

:12:54.:13:02.

that he D until the last question I've just ---er make the criticism

:13:03.:13:06.

of Saudi Arabia that he did. If we have not agreed to the nuclear deal,

:13:07.:13:11.

the billions of pounds of resources would not be able to go into this

:13:12.:13:15.

conflict and indeed in conflicts in Syria and in Lebanon and other parts

:13:16.:13:22.

of the Middle East. Mr Speaker, the signing of the joint comprehensive

:13:23.:13:26.

action plan is an opportunity for Iran to take a more responsible role

:13:27.:13:30.

on the international stage. We know that it has an influence in places

:13:31.:13:35.

from Baghdad to da mass cut, to Beirut and to Senna as well. We want

:13:36.:13:39.

it to step forward and recognise that it is in the region's interest

:13:40.:13:45.

to be more secure and more prosperous. To rejoin the

:13:46.:13:49.

international community and not continue in its negative way to

:13:50.:13:53.

hinder the process of peace right across the region. What is

:13:54.:13:58.

particularly pernicious about the use of cluster munitions is that

:13:59.:14:02.

many of the bomblets lie around for a long time and effectively create a

:14:03.:14:07.

minefield, where many thousands of innocent civilians and children get

:14:08.:14:12.

killed. That's why I'm slightly confused by the Government's

:14:13.:14:15.

position. The minister is still sitting here, but in defence

:14:16.:14:18.

questions said earlier this matter has been raised with the Saudis. But

:14:19.:14:22.

there is the implication now that the Government doesn't oppose the

:14:23.:14:27.

Saudis' use of cluster munitions. Surely we are opposed and he's happy

:14:28.:14:33.

to condemn it from the dispatch box? I think he's trying to put words in

:14:34.:14:37.

my mouth. I made it very clear that it is our policy, wherever cluster

:14:38.:14:42.

munitions are used across the world that we'd discourage anybody from

:14:43.:14:45.

using them, to sign up to the convention. I think I said in my

:14:46.:14:48.

answer that I condemn the use of cluster munitions. As he says, they

:14:49.:14:53.

are legacy that lay around on the battlefield long beyond when the

:14:54.:14:56.

battlefield turns into a civilian arena. That's why they cause damage.

:14:57.:15:00.

That's why we've signed it. That's why I invited all the GCC nations to

:15:01.:15:06.

support signing this important convention that we've signed

:15:07.:15:10.

ourselves. I know my right honourable friend

:15:11.:15:14.

has already said we've got issues with tribal agreement. But what

:15:15.:15:18.

measures has my right honourable friend taken to engage with all

:15:19.:15:21.

relevant parties in the region to test the robustness of that very

:15:22.:15:27.

framework? It isn't just Yemen that we need to have a more collective

:15:28.:15:31.

approach to make sure that there is the support to support the stake

:15:32.:15:35.

holders coming to the stable and in the stabilisation as well. That

:15:36.:15:38.

applies to Iraq, Yemen, Syria as well. That's where the Gulf nations

:15:39.:15:45.

have a responsible not just to support legitimate governments but

:15:46.:15:52.

to take an interest, a commitment to the disablisation and post conflict

:15:53.:15:56.

planning in the aftermath of when the guns fall silent. The first

:15:57.:16:03.

thousand days a child's life is vital for their lifelong

:16:04.:16:06.

development. This awful conflict ensures that not only are they not

:16:07.:16:11.

having their basic human rights met now, but Yemeni children don't have

:16:12.:16:13.

a chance even when the conflict ends. What is the Government doing

:16:14.:16:19.

to ensure Yemeni children have access to varietial nutritious food

:16:20.:16:24.

for the duration of this conflict? ? Mr Speaker, she's absolutely right.

:16:25.:16:30.

This is the travesty of the length of this conflict is denying a

:16:31.:16:36.

generation not just in health but also in education as well. They need

:16:37.:16:42.

to rebuild the country in the longer term. That's why my honourable

:16:43.:16:46.

friend has confirmed we are working with UNICEF to make sure that we can

:16:47.:16:50.

provide the necessary nutritional meals to support those infants in

:16:51.:16:55.

those important years, in the first thousand days of their lives.

:16:56.:17:01.

May I congratulate the right honourable member who asked the

:17:02.:17:05.

urgent question. I would think, Sir, that the whole House would recognise

:17:06.:17:08.

that almost single handedly he's kept the issue of Yemen before this

:17:09.:17:14.

House. May I say to the Shadow minister, it wasn't the right to

:17:15.:17:18.

make party political points on Yemen. Can I ask the excellent

:17:19.:17:22.

minister who has a lot of knowledge on this issue, am I right in

:17:23.:17:26.

thinking the problem with humanitarian aid is not the amount,

:17:27.:17:30.

the money for it, it's the fact that we can't get it through? And if that

:17:31.:17:36.

is the case, how can we try and open that plockage? I'm grateful for my

:17:37.:17:42.

honourable friend's comments. He is right to point to the difficulties

:17:43.:17:45.

in getting access to the areas. There are a series of check points

:17:46.:17:49.

on roads, which means that humanitarian aid is denied. There

:17:50.:17:53.

are NGOs and commercial organisations as well, not

:17:54.:17:56.

forgetting those who have in some cases access. Some of the aid is

:17:57.:18:00.

taken away. Some of the aid is removed as a pun eshment or penalty

:18:01.:18:04.

or as a -- punishment or penalty or as a cost of the getting into the

:18:05.:18:07.

country itself. The absence of the port running properly, the cranes

:18:08.:18:10.

themselves are not working. There's not a single crane of the old cranes

:18:11.:18:14.

that are working there, get these working and we are able to suddenly

:18:15.:18:18.

tenfold increase the aid that can get into the country.

:18:19.:18:26.

THE SPEAKER: Point of order on cluster munitions. Yes, I'll take it

:18:27.:18:32.

now. Not on musicians, no. Sorry if I misspoke, on cluster munitions,

:18:33.:18:39.

that's what Sir Jack Straw would have called the gravamen of his

:18:40.:18:42.

concern. Let's hear it. Mr Speaker, you will have heard just a couple of

:18:43.:18:46.

minutes ago the minister saying that the Government are against cluster

:18:47.:18:49.

munitions. I have in front of me a letter from the minister dated

:18:50.:18:54.

November 3, 2016, in which he states on the subject, you UK maintains the

:18:55.:19:01.

view that cluster mew snigss are not prima-facie illegal and can be used

:19:02.:19:05.

in compliance with international law by states not party to the

:19:06.:19:10.

convention, if they are used with the manner compliant with IHL and

:19:11.:19:15.

the obligation to take all feasible precautions. I'm confused. The

:19:16.:19:22.

minister says the Government are completely oppose and here the

:19:23.:19:26.

minister sets out a view that in some circumstances they are

:19:27.:19:29.

legitimate and acceptable to use. THE SPEAKER: If what he wants is

:19:30.:19:33.

personal reassurance I suggest that his appropriate recourse is to sidle

:19:34.:19:37.

up to the junior minister and ask to have a cup of tea with him. If he's

:19:38.:19:40.

concerned for the benefit of the House as a whole, if he wants

:19:41.:19:44.

something formally on the record, I don't think the honourable gentleman

:19:45.:19:49.

particularly needs my advice, but I proffer it any way. He should table

:19:50.:19:53.

a written question on this sub-Stan Tiff point upon which he requires

:19:54.:19:57.

clarification, and I think he will probably find his salvation coming

:19:58.:20:05.

pretty soon. Helpful nod from a sedentary position from the minister

:20:06.:20:09.

confirms that my expectation is correct. If there are no further

:20:10.:20:14.

points of order, I shall call the - oh, I do beg the honourable lady's

:20:15.:20:19.

pardon. Patience is a virtue. I thank her for waiting. Point of

:20:20.:20:25.

order. Yesterday afternoon in my constituency I attended a Christmas

:20:26.:20:30.

fair where a 76-year-old man with diabetes fell and broke his

:20:31.:20:33.

shoulder. He had to wait almost two hours for an ambulance. When I spoke

:20:34.:20:37.

to the emergency services, they said they were re-triaging as they were

:20:38.:20:42.

currently experiencing high delays with 162 calls across London,

:20:43.:20:45.

currently unattended awaiting ambulances and Mr Speaker, that it

:20:46.:20:50.

had been worse. Latest figures seem to show that not one ambulance trust

:20:51.:20:53.

in the country met targets in October. Perhaps Mr Speaker, you

:20:54.:20:58.

could tell me whether you've received any advance notice or

:20:59.:21:02.

indication of the intention of the minister to make a statement to this

:21:03.:21:06.

House on ambulance delays on and on the Government's plans to address

:21:07.:21:10.

NHS capacity issues as we near the Christmas period?

:21:11.:21:15.

THE SPEAKER: From memory, and I apologise if I'm incorrect, but I

:21:16.:21:19.

don't think I am, there are questions to the Secretary of State

:21:20.:21:25.

for Health before we rise for the Christmas recess. That is extremely

:21:26.:21:31.

fortuitous as far as the honourable lady is concerned. I predict with

:21:32.:21:34.

complete confidence that the honourable lady will be in her place

:21:35.:21:40.

on that occasion, bobbing with the required intensity to be called to

:21:41.:21:43.

put this matter to a relevant minister. If she does, so I don't

:21:44.:21:48.

think it's the revelation of a state secret to say that she's likely to

:21:49.:21:53.

be successful. I hope that's helpful in relation to

:21:54.:21:59.

what is an extremely serious matter. Order. In a moment I shall call the

:22:00.:22:03.

right honourable gentleman the member for Sutton Coldfield to make

:22:04.:22:06.

an application for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important

:22:07.:22:11.

matter that should have urgent consideration under the terms of

:22:12.:22:16.

standing order number 24, the right honourable gentleman who has some

:22:17.:22:19.

experience in these matters will know that he has up to three minutes

:22:20.:22:24.

in which to make such an application. I call Mr Andrew

:22:25.:22:27.

Mitchell I was proposed a motion to evacuate

:22:28.:22:54.

nursing staff from Aleppo. At least 100 children as well who have been

:22:55.:22:57.

winded and are receiving rudimentary care. Also thousands of civilians to

:22:58.:23:05.

a cop between the different fighting groups in a 10-10 enclave where most

:23:06.:23:10.

of the traps are. I make no apology to the House for raising this vital

:23:11.:23:15.

issue again. He granted a debate on these matters two months ago and on

:23:16.:23:18.

that occasion the Foreign Secretary made his first major speech and

:23:19.:23:24.

explained the horror so many feel about what is happening in Syria and

:23:25.:23:30.

Aleppo. I am sure if you grant this emergency debate the whole House

:23:31.:23:32.

will like to hear an update from the Foreign Secretary who has already

:23:33.:23:37.

shown his deep and principal concern about what is taking place. The

:23:38.:23:43.

debate will enable us to explore with the Government how Britain's

:23:44.:23:48.

amends diplomatic muscle, the finest foreign service in the world, can do

:23:49.:23:51.

more to secure a deal that will ensure the ceasefire for 24 hours to

:23:52.:23:57.

enable innocent civilians to be rescued from the hideous

:23:58.:23:59.

circumstances which now prevail in East Aleppo. Britain to kill it some

:24:00.:24:07.

years ago at the United Nations and developing the international

:24:08.:24:09.

community 's responsibility to protect. We said after Wanda that

:24:10.:24:17.

never again it would happen, but it is happening as they meet today.

:24:18.:24:23.

There are forces accompanied by photographs with the use of sarin by

:24:24.:24:29.

the regime, and nerve gas, and a chlorine bomb, the second

:24:30.:24:32.

intermediaries, that hit a medical point. There is no mistake from

:24:33.:24:40.

civilian bonds as the civilians have to come out. The use of chlorine

:24:41.:24:49.

emissions is a war crime. Many civilians trapped in this hellhole

:24:50.:24:54.

which looks like Stalingrad are children. They have few places to

:24:55.:25:03.

hide. Tomorrow night it will be -4 degrees and Aleppo. As we secure a

:25:04.:25:08.

warm and secure Christmas in Britain, I hope that you agree that

:25:09.:25:18.

something must be done. And what we will do to save those who are in

:25:19.:25:27.

such dreadful jeopardy. The Right Honourable Gentleman asks leaves

:25:28.:25:35.

schoolbag leave for a debate about international action to prevent

:25:36.:25:42.

civilians Aleppo and across Syria. Listen carefully to the application

:25:43.:25:45.

and I am satisfied that the matter raised by him is proper to be

:25:46.:25:56.

discussed understanding order 24. Does he have believe the House? Aye.

:25:57.:26:09.

He has obtained the leave of the House and a debate will be held

:26:10.:26:13.

tomorrow on Tuesday the 13th of December as the first item of

:26:14.:26:25.

business. Can I remind the House that there is other important

:26:26.:26:28.

scheduled business to follow. There is flexibility and discretion with

:26:29.:26:34.

the chair in terms of the timing of such debates. I have decided that

:26:35.:26:39.

the debate will last for two hours and will arise on a motion that the

:26:40.:26:43.

House has considered the specified matter set out in the gentleman's

:26:44.:26:51.

application. I hope that is helpful to the House. Thank you.

:26:52.:27:02.

I am hinting to the House that if lots of members showing up to date

:27:03.:27:09.

there is no reason they should not be called up to speak, but the

:27:10.:27:14.

emphasis will be on hearing from several people, pithy speeches.

:27:15.:27:29.

Point of order. On a different matter, today marks precisely 150

:27:30.:27:34.

years since an explosion at the colliery killed 383 miners. Some of

:27:35.:27:43.

the victims were under 14 and the youngest were only ten years old.

:27:44.:27:49.

Could ICQ guidance on how best to ensure that this House commemorates

:27:50.:27:51.

the service and sacrifice of those who lost their lives in the colliery

:27:52.:27:56.

disaster hundred and 50 years ago today. Cancer is as follows. I think

:27:57.:28:09.

he has gone some distance towards achieving that recognition and

:28:10.:28:12.

commemoration by virtue of his ingenious use of the device of the

:28:13.:28:25.

point of order. He made table an early day motion and I do not think

:28:26.:28:28.

you will find it difficult to find colleagues who are willing to take

:28:29.:28:36.

part. If he is still not satisfied it is always open to him to seek an

:28:37.:28:41.

adjournment for a debate with the matter can be more fully marked. I

:28:42.:28:46.

think that is also helpful to the Honourable Gentleman. Perhaps we can

:28:47.:28:52.

now proceed to the main public business.

:28:53.:29:06.

We begin with clause one with which it will be convenient to consider

:29:07.:29:13.

the other new clauses and amendments grouped together on the selection

:29:14.:29:21.

paper. To move the cars I call Mr Gareth Thomas. I am grateful for it

:29:22.:29:28.

you for the opportunity to move these amendments. I should declare

:29:29.:29:35.

an interest as a member of the credit union and is chair of the

:29:36.:29:45.

1-party group for mutuals. We want to give a statutory right to anyone

:29:46.:29:50.

wanting to save in a credit union they are a payroll deduction. The

:29:51.:29:56.

amendment seeks to reduce the pressure on those who are just about

:29:57.:30:02.

managing. This will better incentivise saving under the scheme.

:30:03.:30:07.

Another amendments which I want to talk about first seeks to allow

:30:08.:30:15.

credit unions to offer help to save. I took part in the second reading

:30:16.:30:25.

debate and raised the concern that trade unions were not going to be

:30:26.:30:29.

allowed to offer the help to save product. I have read through the

:30:30.:30:36.

transcript of that debates and the transcript of the Committee

:30:37.:30:42.

proceedings. I can still see no good reason for the Government's

:30:43.:30:47.

resistance to 11 credit unions to offer the help to save scheme. I

:30:48.:30:52.

recognise that ministers want to ensure national coverage of help to

:30:53.:30:59.

save, so that everyone who meets the criteria, potentially the .5 million

:31:00.:31:05.

people across the UK, regardless of where they live, can access the

:31:06.:31:12.

scheme. That makes sense. I have no objection to the choice of national

:31:13.:31:18.

savings or investment as that national provider of choice. What I

:31:19.:31:26.

cannot see is any valid reason to buy credit unions cannot be allowed

:31:27.:31:37.

to complimentary NSI offer. I thank my friends are giving way and can I

:31:38.:31:42.

also declare an interest as a member of the credit union. Does he agree

:31:43.:31:46.

that Government needs to be more ambitious when it comes to credit

:31:47.:31:49.

unions playing a full part in financial services in this country

:31:50.:31:54.

and we need to be heading towards places like Canada where we see a

:31:55.:32:00.

more developed credit union sector. The honourable friend makes an

:32:01.:32:06.

important point. We need much more ambition for our financial mutuals

:32:07.:32:10.

and cooperatives more generally and I'm grateful to him for that

:32:11.:32:18.

intervention. Ministers claims at a Committee that a multiple provider

:32:19.:32:22.

model for the service would not offer value for money. As far as I

:32:23.:32:27.

can see they have provided no costings to justify that claim. It

:32:28.:32:33.

is not as if ministers are dealing in the case of NSI with a company

:32:34.:32:43.

demanding conditions because they are threatened by the credit unions.

:32:44.:32:49.

They are a state-owned bank, effectively, and they are

:32:50.:32:52.

responsible to the Treasury. The Minister responsible as the member

:32:53.:32:56.

for Brighton who is also the Minister responsible for the policy

:32:57.:33:03.

on credit unions. NSI have 25 million customers and 135 early in

:33:04.:33:10.

pounds in assets. By comparison, credit unions across the UK have one

:33:11.:33:15.

point the ?7 billion and less than 1% of the value of NSI investments.

:33:16.:33:23.

In short credit unions are no threat to NSI. It is under the control of

:33:24.:33:29.

the Treasury and it is administered's hands, or it wasn't

:33:30.:33:34.

all the start of this has's proceedings on this issue, now it is

:33:35.:33:39.

the House's opportunity to decide whether or not credit union should

:33:40.:33:42.

be allowed to offer the help to save scheme going forward from this. Does

:33:43.:33:58.

he agree with me that 11 such diversity is important for helping

:33:59.:34:05.

change behaviour and a lot about savings is about cultural attitudes

:34:06.:34:08.

and having ways that you can reach out to communities. My honourable

:34:09.:34:17.

friend makes a good point and I hope to come to a little more to that

:34:18.:34:27.

point in due course. She is right to say and to make the point that

:34:28.:34:31.

credit units potentially have the scope to reach out to more of that

:34:32.:34:36.

the .5 million people that ministers want to help to the help to save

:34:37.:34:41.

scheme, which NSI and I may not be best placed to help going forward.

:34:42.:34:48.

They are not for profit financial cooperatives, they are owned and

:34:49.:34:51.

controlled by their members. There are more uniquely exposed to the

:34:52.:34:58.

financial services markets and are used are offering financial services

:34:59.:35:02.

to those who are often excluded from other better-known sources of

:35:03.:35:06.

finance. They provide safe savings and affordable loans and offer other

:35:07.:35:11.

products by current accounts and I service and mortgages. Is it not

:35:12.:35:21.

true that the key to this is also that credit unions can provide

:35:22.:35:25.

loans. We know that low income families have more bumps on the road

:35:26.:35:28.

than the majority of people with higher incomes. Therefore that

:35:29.:35:33.

ability along with the ability to keep savings is really important.

:35:34.:35:40.

She steals one of my lines from later my remarks as she makes an

:35:41.:35:46.

entirely appropriate point that credit unions can offer both the

:35:47.:35:50.

opportunity to get access to affordable loans but at the same

:35:51.:35:54.

time still encourage people to save going forward. When the loan is paid

:35:55.:36:00.

off, that incentive to keep saving is very much still there. Credit

:36:01.:36:06.

unions have until now enjoyed support from both sides of the

:36:07.:36:15.

House. The growth in 2000 and launched by Ed Balls, saw over

:36:16.:36:24.

400,000 affordable loans offered and its disappearance between 120 ?125

:36:25.:36:29.

million in interest that otherwise would have been made to high costs

:36:30.:36:36.

lenders. It is that kind of success that shows ministers in the last

:36:37.:36:42.

Government, led by the lady for Broxton, agreed to allow three

:36:43.:36:46.

credit unions to offer a credit union services for our soldiers,

:36:47.:36:52.

airmen and their families and to offer an Armed Forces credit union.

:36:53.:36:57.

Given the last Government's funding to expand credit unions, it seems

:36:58.:37:03.

even more strange that tonight ministers should want to continue to

:37:04.:37:07.

exclude credit unions from offering a product into a market which they

:37:08.:37:12.

already have significant interest and penetration into. Credit unions

:37:13.:37:22.

require those borrowing money from them to save along side as they

:37:23.:37:28.

repay their loans. Those who have been borrowing from a credit union

:37:29.:37:32.

have their own Potter savings which in some cases they have never had

:37:33.:37:39.

before. -- own pot of savings. Members continue to save over a far

:37:40.:37:44.

longer period after they have overcome the initial budget

:37:45.:37:47.

difficulties which has prevented them from getting into saving in the

:37:48.:37:53.

first place. Credit unions will also help people save towards a

:37:54.:37:57.

particular short-term goal. The idea of a rainy day fund, which was

:37:58.:38:02.

topped about by a number of members of the second reading is often not

:38:03.:38:06.

tangible enough to make it a savings habit, while saving for Christmas or

:38:07.:38:11.

to go on holiday or to buy a particular goods or access a

:38:12.:38:15.

particular service is. The available evidence suggests that the people

:38:16.:38:22.

are more likely to save towards a defined goal. They demonstrate this

:38:23.:38:29.

and from there more savings take place. This is, I am told, visit

:38:30.:38:37.

behavioural economics. Other advances include the fact that NSI

:38:38.:38:43.

are not a particular familiar organisation for many low and middle

:38:44.:38:50.

income earners. Their offer seems in personal and remote and there is

:38:51.:38:53.

little face-to-face contact or obvious customer support. It is

:38:54.:38:58.

difficult to think that many of the target audience are going to be

:38:59.:39:02.

particularly inspired by such an offer, while the credit union,

:39:03.:39:06.

trusted by friends and family, able to divide face-to-face support, that

:39:07.:39:11.

maybe the difference was sombre to saving up and saving or not. Credit

:39:12.:39:17.

unions should be supported by this to offer help to save and that would

:39:18.:39:20.

be a boost to the ability of credit unions themselves to grow. It would

:39:21.:39:27.

further raise public awareness and potentially introduce credit unions

:39:28.:39:32.

to any group of savers, which given credit unions lack of advertising

:39:33.:39:38.

and firepower, compared to financial services like the banks, can only be

:39:39.:39:45.

helpful for the Government's claim of creating a more diverse banking

:39:46.:39:47.

market. New clause one locks into law the

:39:48.:39:55.

right of anyone to join a credit union to request payroll deduction.

:39:56.:39:59.

Where savings is in, when savings is in the interest of the individual

:40:00.:40:04.

and the country at large, why shouldn't we expect business and

:40:05.:40:07.

employers to help a little by making it as easy as possible for people

:40:08.:40:13.

who want to save. One way some choose to save is by having an

:40:14.:40:18.

amount of money they decide deducted automatically from their pay packet

:40:19.:40:22.

by their employer. It's a process that they can stop immediately and

:40:23.:40:27.

it's known as payroll deduction. Yet at the moment, whether or not

:40:28.:40:30.

payroll deduction is allowed or not is entirely in the gift of the

:40:31.:40:35.

employer. The best employers have no problem with it. Often they will

:40:36.:40:39.

reach agreement with local credit unions or credit unions who operate

:40:40.:40:43.

in the industry and once they have done so, payroll deduction is

:40:44.:40:49.

offered by the company's back officement the Ministry of Defence

:40:50.:40:56.

granted the facility of payroll deduction to three credit unions,

:40:57.:41:02.

who are now offering this service to service personnel and in so doing

:41:03.:41:06.

help to save them huge amounts of interest, ?1 million worth of

:41:07.:41:10.

affordable credit is already being offered to military personnel. It's

:41:11.:41:16.

been pointed out to me that the Department for Work and Pensions are

:41:17.:41:21.

the latest Whitehall department to offer payroll deduction for credit

:41:22.:41:24.

union services to their staff. Again, they've chosen three

:41:25.:41:30.

particular credit unions to work with. Already those staff who work

:41:31.:41:36.

for the DWP, a number of them have benefitted to the tune of several

:41:37.:41:42.

hundred thousand pounds worth after Fordable loans. Most police forces

:41:43.:41:46.

offer payroll deduction for credit union members. Many departments,

:41:47.:41:51.

many other departments in Whitehall also offer this facility. Much of

:41:52.:41:56.

the NHS offers this facility. And hospitals and NHS trusts and other

:41:57.:41:59.

parts of Government are quite right to do so. Some unfortunately

:42:00.:42:04.

outsource payroll companies try to exploit the terms of their contract

:42:05.:42:09.

and demand a fee for agreeing to offer such a service to an employer.

:42:10.:42:15.

It takes a tiny amount of time to sort out, yet some employers will

:42:16.:42:18.

not do the right thing to help their employees save in the way that best

:42:19.:42:23.

suits them. The worst offender that I know of currently is Transport for

:42:24.:42:28.

London, who employ almost 28,000 staff. It claims there is no demand

:42:29.:42:33.

for credit union access and that they offer generous emergency

:42:34.:42:37.

assistance if staff get into problems. And that it would be

:42:38.:42:42.

costly to offer payroll deduction. They certainly say they don't want

:42:43.:42:46.

to get into the picking or not picking of which credit unions to

:42:47.:42:51.

work with. I struggle to see why tfl is different to the Ministry of

:42:52.:42:57.

Defence. There weren't thousands of soldiers queuing to join a credit

:42:58.:43:02.

union either. It cost the MoD, whose payroll is outsourced, a fee.

:43:03.:43:06.

Ironically I'm told the particular payroll company offers payroll

:43:07.:43:10.

deduction to its own staff. The offer important as it is, I do think

:43:11.:43:18.

from TfL is a red herring. This is about making it easy for an employer

:43:19.:43:27.

to save on an ongoing basis with a reputable credit union. If the MoD

:43:28.:43:30.

can work out which credit unions to work with it shouldn't be beyond the

:43:31.:43:34.

wit of Transport for London to do so as well. I hope Transport for London

:43:35.:43:39.

will change its mind. We are having discussions with them, Mr Speaker,

:43:40.:43:42.

and I hope they will come to see sense in the end. I think it has a

:43:43.:43:47.

spont to do so. But I do think Government should cut through the

:43:48.:43:51.

nonsense and legislate to allow the employee the right to request

:43:52.:43:55.

payroll deduction up front to join a credit union. If saving is both in

:43:56.:44:00.

the individual interest and in the national interest, then we should

:44:01.:44:03.

seek to make it as easy as possible for payroll deduction to join a

:44:04.:44:08.

credit union to be offered. Lastly in this group of amendments that is

:44:09.:44:13.

under my name is amendment one, which lowers the qualifying period

:44:14.:44:16.

of the help to save product before the Government top up begins from 24

:44:17.:44:29.

- -- months to 12. I simply draw the House's attention to the evidence

:44:30.:44:35.

that step change, the debt advice charity put in suggesting that 24

:44:36.:44:40.

months as simply too long a period to ensure that the Government's

:44:41.:44:42.

objective of incentivising more objective of incentivising more

:44:43.:44:48.

savings were made. I look forward to shearing the views of other members

:44:49.:44:53.

of the House. I hope ministers will, in particular, reflect on the case

:44:54.:44:58.

that I have made for amendment two, because if they're not willing to

:44:59.:45:02.

shift on, it I would seek your leave to divide the House on that

:45:03.:45:03.

question. THE SPEAKER: New clause one. The

:45:04.:45:20.

question is that new clause one be read a second time. Thank you Mr

:45:21.:45:29.

Speaker. It will come as no surprise to many people in this House that

:45:30.:45:35.

I'm here tonight in full support of my party colleagues on this matter

:45:36.:45:40.

and in full support of the vital importance of supporting our credit

:45:41.:45:43.

unions because of the debt tsunami that is coming our way as a country.

:45:44.:45:48.

Some people here may think this is one of my greatest hits to talk

:45:49.:45:52.

about personal debt in this country and the scourge of the high cost

:45:53.:45:56.

lenders, always the credit unions were part of the answer. I rise to

:45:57.:46:00.

support amendment two on that basis tonight, because it is absolutely

:46:01.:46:04.

critical with that debt tsunami coming towards us as a nation that

:46:05.:46:08.

we act to support the credit union movement, as a vital component of

:46:09.:46:13.

helping people. We know that for too many people in our nation now, debt

:46:14.:46:18.

is a part of life. There is just simply too much month for their

:46:19.:46:22.

money. That has been the case for many years. Those problems are

:46:23.:46:26.

becoming endemic, to such a level that people don't realise the level

:46:27.:46:30.

of debt they may have. For others it is all too common. We know that two

:46:31.:46:34.

out of five people in this country are very worried about their level

:46:35.:46:37.

of personal debt. When we're talking about personal debt. We're talking

:46:38.:46:41.

about unsecured personal debt. This is not people just worrying about

:46:42.:46:45.

their mortgages. This is people worrying about the day-to-day cost

:46:46.:46:49.

of everyday living. Indeed, for 54% of those people who are struggling

:46:50.:46:54.

in this country, it's the cost of food that is the problem. It's

:46:55.:46:57.

literally the cost of being able to put food on the table, not just keep

:46:58.:47:02.

a roof above the heads of them and their families. For 30% of those

:47:03.:47:05.

people, it's the cost of energy. It's the people who will look at the

:47:06.:47:10.

weather forecast fearful as we see the temperature dropping knowing

:47:11.:47:13.

that simply they cannot afford to put money in the metre to keep their

:47:14.:47:17.

families warm. Increasingly in this country, it is the people who are in

:47:18.:47:21.

debt because of their debt, the 22% of people who are struggling because

:47:22.:47:27.

of credit card repayment debts. This is everyday Britain. This is the

:47:28.:47:31.

kind of community and country that we have become, a country where debt

:47:32.:47:35.

is so common place people are not just waving, they are drowning in

:47:36.:47:39.

it. It is the spont of all of us to act not simply to help people with

:47:40.:47:43.

debt advice, not simply to shrug our shoulders and see this as part and

:47:44.:47:46.

parcel of the way our economy works. But to ask if there are things we

:47:47.:47:50.

can do to help them manage those debts. That question, that debt

:47:51.:47:54.

tsunami is only going to become worse as we head into #20 17 and I

:47:55.:47:59.

think all of us recognise that inflation is likely to rise from 1%,

:48:00.:48:03.

possibly up to 4%, some experts suggest. Those costs of food, those

:48:04.:48:09.

costs of basic goods like energy are going to get higher not lower. Yet

:48:10.:48:13.

we know for so many people their wages have been frozen for so many

:48:14.:48:17.

years now that the gap between the end of the month and the start of

:48:18.:48:21.

the month is going to feel a very, very long way away in 2017. That is

:48:22.:48:26.

why we have to be pragmatic and pragmatic is about offering people

:48:27.:48:28.

good options about how to manage what little money they have. That is

:48:29.:48:32.

where the credit union movement in this country comes into its own.

:48:33.:48:35.

That is why it's absolutely varietial when the Government wants

:48:36.:48:39.

to encourage savings that it does not exclude but instead embraces the

:48:40.:48:43.

credit union movement and the benefits it can offer. When we know

:48:44.:48:46.

that a quarter of people in it country have no savings at all,

:48:47.:48:50.

saying well, who is the movement whose door is always open to every

:48:51.:48:54.

citizen in this country and how can we help them to bridge that gap,

:48:55.:49:00.

means looking to the credit union movement. My colleague has made an

:49:01.:49:04.

admirable case about how to help the movement and the work that they do.

:49:05.:49:08.

I simply, at the risk of repeating myself, want to echo his words and

:49:09.:49:13.

say we can do so much more. This scheme, involving credit unions is

:49:14.:49:16.

the start not the end of that conversation. I know my own credit

:49:17.:49:21.

union struggled for many years to get onto the High Street in

:49:22.:49:24.

Walthamstow. What a difference that has made. My own credit union has

:49:25.:49:28.

struggled to get in and work with people in the work places, but what

:49:29.:49:31.

a difference it can make when we do that. We see councils around this

:49:32.:49:36.

country working for example, like Southampton, to give people access

:49:37.:49:39.

to a credit union and savers in return for helping those people who

:49:40.:49:44.

would have been to a pay day lender to get the money there. Being able

:49:45.:49:47.

to link communities together. It is absolutely crucial that we do not

:49:48.:49:51.

just see credit unions about borrowing, but also about saving.

:49:52.:49:54.

And about how then through that saving you can help and support

:49:55.:49:58.

wider social objectives in a local community. That is why this owe

:49:59.:50:03.

mission must be corrected. That is why we as Co-operative MPs have

:50:04.:50:07.

stood here tonight to ask the Government to think about excludeing

:50:08.:50:11.

credit unions from the help to save scheme and instead to embrace them.

:50:12.:50:15.

I will join with my colleague tonight to say if we do not get

:50:16.:50:17.

support from the Government to change this, we will be looking to

:50:18.:50:21.

divide the House. We want to send a message. We know that people are

:50:22.:50:25.

going to have to borrow. We know that when 2017 look as dire as it's

:50:26.:50:29.

going to look with inflation rising and people's wages still stalling

:50:30.:50:32.

and the cost of living still continuing to rise, that we have to

:50:33.:50:35.

make sure that people have sensible borrowing options. We also know they

:50:36.:50:39.

have to have sensible saving options. The credit union movement

:50:40.:50:42.

is the solution to that question. It is the solution to asking about

:50:43.:50:46.

people who maybe would have not gone anywhere else. If we can get them

:50:47.:50:51.

into a credit union movement we can start getting them to save. This is

:50:52.:50:56.

a critical time in the debt portfolio we see in this country. A

:50:57.:51:00.

debt tsunami is heading our way, let's not turn our backs to it.

:51:01.:51:03.

Let's be sensible about what we can do to help. Let's make credit unions

:51:04.:51:12.

part of the solution. Thank you, Mr Speaker. To start off,

:51:13.:51:16.

I'd like to thank my honourable friend the member for Harrow west,

:51:17.:51:29.

who has been indefat Iingable in -- in de fatiguable with relation to

:51:30.:51:35.

these issues. And no reasonable person could disagree with anything

:51:36.:51:39.

articulated to us today by the honourable member in his usual,

:51:40.:51:42.

cogent, coherent and reasonable way. He has the support of this bench and

:51:43.:51:47.

many other honourable members in the chamber. In fact, he's in line with

:51:48.:51:55.

organisations such as Step Change debt charity, whilst welcoming the

:51:56.:51:58.

concept of help to save feel that the Government has not gone far

:51:59.:52:02.

enough in its commitment to facilitating savings. Own one in

:52:03.:52:05.

seven people eligible for the scheme are likely to take it up. And

:52:06.:52:12.

supports the payroll deduction concept suggested by my honourable

:52:13.:52:14.

friend. Mr Speaker, before I deal with the Opposition's clauses and

:52:15.:52:18.

amendments to the savings and Government's contributions bill, I

:52:19.:52:21.

would like to summarise our overall view.

:52:22.:52:27.

While we fully support any measure that will encourage people to save,

:52:28.:52:33.

particularly young people and those with lower incomes we feel that the

:52:34.:52:40.

proposed lifetime ice will do little to encourage these groups. We have

:52:41.:52:46.

heard a raft of evidence that will support this view. Many concerned

:52:47.:52:52.

that this is just another product in an overcrowded market. The

:52:53.:53:00.

opposition will not stand in the way of the bill but we want to make a

:53:01.:53:03.

number of reasonable changes to ensure that the proposed ISA and

:53:04.:53:10.

right to buy scheme do what they say they will. Those on low incomes

:53:11.:53:15.

struggling to make it through the week have seen the government

:53:16.:53:19.

drastically cut in work benefits. I therefore don't see how people with

:53:20.:53:27.

the minimum threshold, particularly when report show half UK adults have

:53:28.:53:34.

less than ?500 set aside for emergencies, some families will not

:53:35.:53:40.

be able to save ?50 every month. That was raised by the SNP in the

:53:41.:53:46.

bill committee. Moving to the impact review and auto enrolment. The wider

:53:47.:53:51.

concern the opposition have is that this scheme will interfere and

:53:52.:53:57.

perhaps negatively impact pension automatic enrolment. Does the

:53:58.:54:00.

government really want to take a gamble that 6.7 million people

:54:01.:54:06.

across 250,000 employers already auto enrolled will not reach the

:54:07.:54:09.

government target of 10 million by 20 20. The new clause and amendment

:54:10.:54:18.

are designed to address this question. Namely, the lifetime

:54:19.:54:31.

Individual Savings Account poses a threat to traditional pension

:54:32.:54:34.

savings and most significantly to auto enrolment. I believe that it is

:54:35.:54:41.

self-evident that auto enrolment which was mandated by the last

:54:42.:54:45.

Labour government is an outstanding initiative and starting to achieve

:54:46.:54:53.

its aims. This proposal would impose a duty on HMRC to review annually

:54:54.:55:00.

the impact on licenses of auto enrolment. This is one of the few

:55:01.:55:07.

success stories in the pension landscape. We feel that the

:55:08.:55:14.

government policy may put the wider landscape in jeopardy and be a

:55:15.:55:18.

dangerous path to follow. Tensions are history suggest that will only

:55:19.:55:24.

be recognised in years to come. That is why we would like to see an

:55:25.:55:29.

annual review on the impact of the auto enrolment scheme to ensure that

:55:30.:55:35.

the introduction of lifetime ISAs do not impact negatively on that

:55:36.:55:40.

success. Not all employers will be auto enrolled until February 20 18.

:55:41.:55:46.

The increase of minimum contributions to 8% will not be

:55:47.:55:54.

until 2019. Dropout is relatively low among young people. In the

:55:55.:55:59.

meantime, we don't want anything to jeopardise the maximum number of

:56:00.:56:04.

people enrolling or to provide any incentive to drop out. This is not

:56:05.:56:09.

an unreasonable position to take given the implications of getting

:56:10.:56:13.

things wrong. That is why we are tabling the amendment that would

:56:14.:56:16.

delay the commencement of the bill until the end of April 2019 when all

:56:17.:56:24.

firms will be auto enrolled the increase in minimum contributions to

:56:25.:56:29.

8% will be completed. The truth is, many people can't afford to pay both

:56:30.:56:37.

into a pension and an ISA. Many can't do either. The pensions

:56:38.:56:43.

committee has warned the government that quoting out of auto enrolment

:56:44.:56:49.

to save in a lifetime ISA will leave people worse off. The DWP has been

:56:50.:56:56.

clear that the ISA is not a pension product but the Treasury has

:56:57.:57:02.

preferred an alternative view. Moving on to independent financial

:57:03.:57:06.

advice. I would contend that if the government can't get its position on

:57:07.:57:12.

my lifetime ISA clear, how can people in the street? It seems that

:57:13.:57:17.

the benefits of this product is compared to pension plans is

:57:18.:57:20.

relatively unclear when set in the context of the wider market. That's

:57:21.:57:26.

why we are introducing a proposal to place a duty on the Secretary of

:57:27.:57:30.

State to make regulations that ensure all applicants for a lifetime

:57:31.:57:35.

ISA have independent financial advice made available to them. In

:57:36.:57:41.

other words, the purpose of the amendment is to make sure that those

:57:42.:57:48.

opening a ISA will receive independent financial advice. The

:57:49.:57:56.

advice will be offered automatically through an opt in service and the

:57:57.:58:03.

service provider would sign a declaration outlining the advice

:58:04.:58:09.

that the applicant had received. The status of the applicant would have

:58:10.:58:15.

to be confirmed and whether they planned to use the lifetime ISA for

:58:16.:58:23.

a residential purpose. Independent advice doesn't have to be expensive.

:58:24.:58:28.

The government could mandate an online platform where an individual

:58:29.:58:33.

could get independent financial advice. Whereas the Chancellor has

:58:34.:58:45.

championed the putative simple nature of the ISA that hasn't been

:58:46.:58:50.

backed up. The government should ensure that no one company has the

:58:51.:58:57.

contract for independent financial advice and this is to avoid a repeat

:58:58.:59:03.

of the concentric scandal. The opposition believe that it is only

:59:04.:59:08.

right that anyone considering a ISA for a lifetime is given an

:59:09.:59:11.

opportunity to seize benefits compared to those other schemes on

:59:12.:59:15.

the market. To ensure that they can make an informed choice with the

:59:16.:59:20.

help of independent financial advice parity will be enabled and a much

:59:21.:59:27.

needed oversight in education about the benefits of the scheme in situ.

:59:28.:59:35.

It goes without saying that, virtually, the purchase of a pension

:59:36.:59:43.

is one of the most important things a person undertakes. The history of

:59:44.:59:50.

mis-selling has left a long deep shadow across the financial products

:59:51.:59:54.

sector and we must take that into account and we can't ignore it. So

:59:55.:00:00.

many bodies from across numerous industries outlining concerns that

:00:01.:00:04.

there is a risk that people will save into a lifetime ISA when it is

:00:05.:00:09.

not the most beneficial option, I can't see a reasonable argument

:00:10.:00:13.

against ensuring that applicants receive independent financial advice

:00:14.:00:18.

before opening an account. Millions of people have lost confidence in

:00:19.:00:23.

much of the sector and that is partly why, as alluded to by the

:00:24.:00:28.

witnesses in the committee, if people are saving, they are doing so

:00:29.:00:32.

in cash Isas because they are not sure about stocks and shares and

:00:33.:00:39.

other products. They are then saving in products that give very low

:00:40.:00:44.

returns. We must create an environment in which people can save

:00:45.:00:47.

and feel confident that they will get a reasonable return on their

:00:48.:00:51.

investment, especially if that investment is for the later years

:00:52.:00:55.

and that is perfectly reasonable. Moving on to clause four. First-time

:00:56.:01:01.

residential purchase research impact assessment. We recognise that people

:01:02.:01:06.

want to own their own home and we would encourage people to do that if

:01:07.:01:10.

it is what they wish. We are concerned that the policy will only

:01:11.:01:16.

inflate housing prices further and that the lifetime ISA will make

:01:17.:01:21.

things more difficult in an already strained housing environment because

:01:22.:01:23.

of the limited number of houses being built nationwide. I won't even

:01:24.:01:29.

mention the huge cost of housing at a ghillie in London and the

:01:30.:01:45.

south-east. -- especially in London. The review must be made public and

:01:46.:01:52.

available before both houses of parliament. Evidence received in the

:01:53.:01:59.

yearly stages highlighted concerns amongst the likes of Martin Lewis.

:02:00.:02:04.

While acknowledging the popularity of the lifetime ISA arguing that

:02:05.:02:10.

unintended consequences are a possibility and concern. It's

:02:11.:02:15.

worrying that fewer homes were built in the last Parliament and in any of

:02:16.:02:21.

the government since the 1920s. The lifetime ISA may help, may help, to

:02:22.:02:29.

overheat a market that is already short of capacity. The government

:02:30.:02:34.

priority should be to try to mitigate that and not to add to the

:02:35.:02:42.

problem. The fact is, people are increasingly chasing a product and

:02:43.:02:47.

market that has loads apply levels. As I indicated at committee stage,

:02:48.:02:54.

it happens that product is a house. The government are almost two years

:02:55.:02:57.

through their five-year housing plan, not counting the previous five

:02:58.:03:01.

years and we are still falling badly behind targets. If I recall... On

:03:02.:03:22.

100,000 house transactions per year of ?750, it adds about 70 million

:03:23.:03:31.

per year to prices. If we are adding to an overheating sector it is

:03:32.:03:34.

important that we take into account the overall impact. Moving on to new

:03:35.:03:42.

clause five. As mentioned, the opposition concern about the

:03:43.:03:46.

lifetime ISA will do little to help those on low incomes to save. We

:03:47.:03:50.

would like the government to produce within six months of the act coming

:03:51.:03:56.

into force an analysis of the distribution of benefits of lifetime

:03:57.:04:01.

ISA looking at the additional effects between different households

:04:02.:04:08.

of different levels of incomes, gender, and different ethnic

:04:09.:04:15.

minority groups. The government is making huge cuts to working tax

:04:16.:04:22.

credits even after the Chancellor's minor adjustments. Therefore, it's

:04:23.:04:27.

difficult to imagine that such families will have a spare ?50 a

:04:28.:04:32.

month to put into a help to save account. I refer to my early point

:04:33.:04:42.

about low take-up. The lifetime ISA will deliver subsidies to those who

:04:43.:04:47.

need them least. Meanwhile, there is a danger that the measure which is

:04:48.:04:57.

for universal credit and credit restrictions may enable people on

:04:58.:05:02.

low incomes to save when at that point it is not in their best

:05:03.:05:10.

interest to do so. They represent a move away from collectivisation of

:05:11.:05:21.

welfare. As women are both less likely to have funds to save and

:05:22.:05:27.

more likely to require time out for caring they would be disadvantaged

:05:28.:05:33.

by an individualised approach rather than a collective system that allows

:05:34.:05:38.

for redistribution. Moving on to new clause six. This feeds into the

:05:39.:05:46.

overall debate over whether the lifetime ISA would be good value for

:05:47.:05:50.

money particularly if it doesn't help those on low incomes and

:05:51.:05:56.

minority groups to save. While we welcome the sensible measures to

:05:57.:06:00.

address the issue of how low retirement savings for the less

:06:01.:06:07.

well-off will pan out, anything that puts money into the pocket of middle

:06:08.:06:11.

to low earners is welcome but I will do how it sits alongside the

:06:12.:06:18.

Conservative aims to cut in relation to universal credit. According to

:06:19.:06:23.

the budget responsibility office, the various schemes would create a

:06:24.:06:31.

?5 billion Lascuna in the public finances. It is therefore important

:06:32.:06:37.

that it is not disproportionate to those who are already in a position

:06:38.:06:41.

to get onto the housing ladder and a. It would be a shame if the

:06:42.:06:45.

beneficiaries of this scheme were limited to those already able to

:06:46.:06:51.

afford to save and a deposit for a house. At the time when the two

:06:52.:06:59.

policy announcements,, the same time, the idea of giving ?1.8

:07:00.:07:06.

billion for housing support for those of a better position to afford

:07:07.:07:10.

juxtaposed against the significant cuts to those in lower paid work

:07:11.:07:14.

will at the very least be seen as insensitive and some as crass and

:07:15.:07:18.

unfair. It is incumbent upon the Minister to

:07:19.:07:28.

ensure that the use of taxpayers' money is undertaken with duty

:07:29.:07:31.

uppermost in her mind. This is all the more necessary in times of

:07:32.:07:35.

economic turbulence, that the use of taxpayers' money must be both

:07:36.:07:38.

prudent and canny. That is why we are asking the government to

:07:39.:07:41.

implement an assessment within six months of the bill coming into

:07:42.:07:45.

effect on the value for money to the taxpayer provided by the lifetime

:07:46.:07:51.

ISA and help to save scheme. The opposition has concerns about the

:07:52.:07:55.

effectiveness of this scheme. Whilst we welcome any reasonable measures

:07:56.:07:59.

that will allow those on low incomes to be able to save and encourage

:08:00.:08:03.

young people to start saving earlier, the fear is that this

:08:04.:08:06.

scheme will disproportionately benefit a minority of people who are

:08:07.:08:09.

already more likely to be any position to save and get on the

:08:10.:08:14.

ladder. There is a clear contradiction, some might say, of a

:08:15.:08:20.

government on the one hand cutting universal tax credits and on the

:08:21.:08:24.

other somehow expecting them to find the money to use this, to fund this

:08:25.:08:34.

scheme. Is that fair? I have ordered, the clear concerns the

:08:35.:08:37.

surrounding the need for independent financial advice and assessment on

:08:38.:08:39.

the on the impact the Right to Buy schemes will have on the housing

:08:40.:08:42.

market and its cost effectiveness. It is paramount that the government,

:08:43.:08:46.

in due course, lays out clear evidence as to who is using this

:08:47.:08:51.

scheme and if necessary amended to allow wider participation. This

:08:52.:08:55.

should not interfere with the continued success of the

:08:56.:08:57.

auto-enrolment and therefore should be delayed until 2019, when

:08:58.:09:02.

auto-enrolment is completed. To be clear, this is not the scheme we

:09:03.:09:06.

would have initiated. We have huge reservations about any move from

:09:07.:09:08.

this Government away from a collective pension system and

:09:09.:09:13.

towards an individualised payments system. That is a very slippery

:09:14.:09:17.

slope and this Government will not be here to regret it. Mr Speaker,

:09:18.:09:22.

that is why we will continue to scrutinise the lifetime ISA, a

:09:23.:09:26.

potential Trojan horse to the current pension system, and help to

:09:27.:09:30.

save scheme, which attempts to solve the conscience of a few backbenchers

:09:31.:09:35.

opposite after the gentle taken to tax credit. If the government will

:09:36.:09:39.

not concede, we will be pursuing to a division new clauses two and six.

:09:40.:09:47.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a

:09:48.:09:50.

pleasure to be called in this debate. I rise to meet new clause

:09:51.:09:55.

seven and Edmonds 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 1011, 18, 13 and seven in my

:09:56.:10:02.

name and my honourable colleague's. I can see members opposite are

:10:03.:10:07.

laughing, but perhaps the government had taken this seriously and had

:10:08.:10:11.

taken well-intentioned amendments when we were in the committee stage,

:10:12.:10:15.

we would not be having to put all of these down tonight. Let's tell the

:10:16.:10:18.

House, this is actually a seriously bad bill. It is a seriously bad

:10:19.:10:22.

piece of legislation and it ought to be taken seriously by members

:10:23.:10:27.

opposite, and not scoffed at. We in the Scottish National Party have

:10:28.:10:30.

consistently warned of the dangers from this bill. And its consequences

:10:31.:10:35.

for savers. The SNP are supportive of any initiative which promotes

:10:36.:10:40.

savings, but this is a gimmick is that only works for those who can

:10:41.:10:43.

afford to save to the levels demanded by the government to get

:10:44.:10:48.

the bonus. The lifetime ISA falls short of real pension reform. Mr

:10:49.:10:51.

Speaker, it is a distraction to allow the Treasury access to taxes

:10:52.:10:55.

today, rather than having to wait until tomorrow. Saving into this

:10:56.:11:03.

type of either are made out of after-tax income. Pension

:11:04.:11:05.

contributions are tax-exempt and tend to receive employee employer

:11:06.:11:09.

contribute is. Saving through pensions remain the most attractive

:11:10.:11:14.

method of saving for endowment. Although anything that encourages

:11:15.:11:17.

saving for a little advice to be welcomed, there is danger that this

:11:18.:11:21.

Government will derail auto-enrolment. Hope to see it as

:11:22.:11:25.

another example where we agreed working to encourage savings is

:11:26.:11:28.

welcome however in this case, again, the UK Government only scratched the

:11:29.:11:32.

surface rather than willing to really tackling those struggling to

:11:33.:11:39.

plan for emergencies later in life. If we pass this bill tonight, we run

:11:40.:11:42.

the risk of seducing young people away from investing in pensions by

:11:43.:11:47.

encouraging investment in a lifetime ISA. We have said before that nobody

:11:48.:11:53.

investing in an ISA can be better off than somebody investing in a

:11:54.:11:57.

pension. Nobody will be better off in an ISA. Why are the government

:11:58.:12:04.

persisting with this Bill? Let us be clear, if we pass this bill tonight,

:12:05.:12:09.

we are creating the circumstances that young people could be sold a

:12:10.:12:13.

lifetime ISA when their interest would be better served by investing

:12:14.:12:17.

in a pension. That is what we will do if we pass this bill. We thought

:12:18.:12:23.

at committee stage to make sure there were safeguards in place, to

:12:24.:12:26.

make sure our advice was available for applicants to remove this risk.

:12:27.:12:32.

The government, for whatever reason, refused to accept these reasonable

:12:33.:12:36.

proposals at committee stage. We are pushing new clause seven this

:12:37.:12:39.

evening that would provide advice for applicants. The Secretary of

:12:40.:12:44.

State must make provision by regulation to ensure all providers

:12:45.:12:49.

of lifetime myself, or help to save accounts, provide applicants at the

:12:50.:12:51.

point of application with both advise about the suitability of the

:12:52.:12:55.

product in question for each individual applicant and information

:12:56.:12:58.

about automatic enrolment and workplace pension schemes. This new

:12:59.:13:03.

clause would require advised to be provided for applicants for iPhones

:13:04.:13:09.

or help to save accounts which must include information on

:13:10.:13:11.

auto-enrolment. It is something that is still in its infancy and is due

:13:12.:13:14.

to be reviewed next year, although we heard to do that increases in

:13:15.:13:21.

payments to auto-enrolments are now off the agenda, something that is

:13:22.:13:26.

also to be, I think, debated by this House, and something that needs to

:13:27.:13:29.

be changed. This has to be a priority for savings. If we are not

:13:30.:13:33.

successful in succeeding with our new clause tonight, are only

:13:34.:13:38.

alternative is pushing amendments 15, would remove the LISA from the

:13:39.:13:44.

document, completely. Our primary issue with the bill as drafted if

:13:45.:13:46.

the Government Contributions Bill. The government rely on low dropout

:13:47.:13:51.

rates from auto-enrolment to justify that the LISA would not rule out

:13:52.:13:54.

pension savings, we are not convinced. The bill is a missed

:13:55.:13:57.

opportunity to focus on strengthening pension saving, rather

:13:58.:14:00.

than tinkering around the savings landscape. Our amendments at

:14:01.:14:08.

committee stage sought to bring in a delay to the LISA until the were

:14:09.:14:11.

brought in and we move today for the need for manager advice Isil the

:14:12.:14:15.

government said this is a confirmatory product, not an

:14:16.:14:17.

alternative to pension savings, however this gets no real thought to

:14:18.:14:20.

the difficulties facing consumers understanding their options and

:14:21.:14:26.

whether they have savings that is the best product for their needs.

:14:27.:14:30.

Pensions are already confusing and complex. The LISA, as stands, adds

:14:31.:14:35.

to that complexity. We need to build trust in savings. That can only come

:14:36.:14:40.

with consumers having confidence in what is being offered to them. A new

:14:41.:14:44.

suite of savings products which in many cases are inferior to existing

:14:45.:14:47.

offerings does not help build confidence in savings. At a second

:14:48.:14:55.

reading, the financial Secretary said what is attractive about the

:14:56.:14:59.

LISA is that people do not have to make an immediate decision about

:15:00.:15:02.

what they are saving the money. They do not have to make this decision at

:15:03.:15:07.

an early stage, when they can see what is ahead. That, Mr Speaker, is

:15:08.:15:12.

an astonishing statement. Why is the financial secretary not saying that

:15:13.:15:15.

we ought to be encouraging pension savings? I get the point that we

:15:16.:15:18.

need to consider moves to help young people get on the housing ladder.

:15:19.:15:23.

Perhaps we need to think about how investment in pensions savings might

:15:24.:15:25.

help in this regard. That is one of the reasons that I keep asking for

:15:26.:15:30.

the establishment of a pension fund savings commission, so that we can

:15:31.:15:34.

look at these matters in a holistic manner. I keep making the point, and

:15:35.:15:39.

I make no apology for saying again, nobody should be better off with a

:15:40.:15:43.

LISA than they would be with pensions and savings. The long-term

:15:44.:15:47.

cost of foregoing annual employer contributions of 3% of salary by

:15:48.:15:51.

saving into a LISA would be substantial. For a basic rate

:15:52.:15:58.

taxpayer, the impact would be of roughly one third less in a LISA

:15:59.:16:02.

over a pension by the age of 60. For example, an employee earning ?25,000

:16:03.:16:08.

per year and saving 4% per annum of their income would see a difference

:16:09.:16:15.

in excess of ?53,000. After 42 years, someone savings are pension

:16:16.:16:20.

scheme would have a pot worth over 160 pixel isn't at a growth rate of

:16:21.:16:27.

3%. -- over ?160,000. Under a LISA, at the same growth rate, the value

:16:28.:16:32.

would only be 112,000, a difference of over ?53,000. The difference

:16:33.:16:36.

would be even greater if wage growth was factored in. That is why we

:16:37.:16:40.

cannot support the government tonight, as far as the LISA elements

:16:41.:16:44.

of people are concerned. With the introduction of advice, we are

:16:45.:16:49.

creating the circumstances, sorry, without the introduction of advice

:16:50.:16:53.

we are creating the circumstances were mis-selling can take place. How

:16:54.:16:58.

can we stop someone being sold a LISA when a pension plan would be

:16:59.:17:02.

better for the consumer's needs? We cannot. That, quite simply, is why

:17:03.:17:08.

this bill is wrong. The government ought to be thoroughly ashamed of

:17:09.:17:13.

itself. It is creating the circumstances were mis-selling can

:17:14.:17:16.

take place, and I pointed the finger of blame at the government for

:17:17.:17:23.

bringing this bill, at every member prepared to go through the lobbies

:17:24.:17:26.

tonight and support this. Dwell on the example that I gave, where

:17:27.:17:31.

someone earning ?25,000 per annum saving 4% of their salary could be

:17:32.:17:38.

as much as ?53,000 worth of after 42 years. Who can honestly support

:17:39.:17:43.

this? It is not the consumer' interest, it is de facto committing

:17:44.:17:50.

a fraud on savers in this country. Today, research has been published

:17:51.:17:54.

by true potential which after a poll of 2000 employees showed that 30% of

:17:55.:18:01.

people aged between 25 and 40 would choose a LISA instead of a pension.

:18:02.:18:07.

And that 58 of 25-34 -year-olds, 58% of them, would use their LISA for a

:18:08.:18:17.

retirement savings. These statistics are the early warnings of the

:18:18.:18:23.

potential for mis-selling. The House tonight must vote to protect the

:18:24.:18:27.

consumer interest by backing new clause seven, putting in place an

:18:28.:18:33.

advice regime, failing which support amendments 15, which will delete

:18:34.:18:38.

LISAs from this bill. Failure do so will be a failure of responsibility

:18:39.:18:43.

of each and every member of this House. Mr Speaker, I said at second

:18:44.:18:49.

reading that we would resist any further attempts to undermine

:18:50.:18:53.

pension saving and specifically to change the tax status of pension

:18:54.:18:57.

savings. That would be little more than an underhand way of driving up

:18:58.:19:04.

tax receipts, sweet talking workers to invest after-tax income in LISAs,

:19:05.:19:09.

when their interests are best served by investing in pensions. The sheer

:19:10.:19:14.

fact that LISAs will be encouraged to be used for retirement savings

:19:15.:19:20.

will confuse the public and this is a pension product that could just

:19:21.:19:22.

incentivise retirement savings in what should be traditional products.

:19:23.:19:27.

The government's response that an amendment on advice would not work

:19:28.:19:30.

in practice because it would create a barrier to accessing the LISA is

:19:31.:19:34.

another quite extraordinary argument, as all the advice would do

:19:35.:19:40.

is make sure consumers can make informed decisions. What is there

:19:41.:19:44.

not to support from that of a premise? If there are consumers that

:19:45.:19:48.

choose to invest in a pension rather than a LISA product then I would be

:19:49.:19:53.

delighted, and so should the government. The role of the SCA, the

:19:54.:19:57.

government said, would be to ensure that sufficient safeguards are put

:19:58.:20:00.

in place. Specifically on advice. While we welcome the proposed

:20:01.:20:06.

protections from the SCA, namely that firms will be required to give

:20:07.:20:09.

specific risk warnings at the point-of-sale, which include

:20:10.:20:12.

reminding consumers of the importance of ensuring an

:20:13.:20:16.

appropriate mix of assets to be held in the LISA, firms also after to

:20:17.:20:19.

amend consumers of the early withdrawal charges and other

:20:20.:20:24.

charges. The SCA has provided a proposal that providers will have to

:20:25.:20:28.

offer a 30 day cancellation period after selling the LISA. However,

:20:29.:20:33.

still the risk is simply too great for the government should treat this

:20:34.:20:36.

as an afterthought. There must be a formal mechanism to assist those

:20:37.:20:41.

seeking to increase savings, particularly when they are looking

:20:42.:20:46.

for a retirement product. Even the EBI, who cautiously welcome the

:20:47.:20:51.

LISA, have said LISA and other Isa products receive savings from money

:20:52.:20:54.

that is already taxed. This keeps the burden of the taxation with

:20:55.:20:59.

working eight people and takes money out of the real economy. That takes

:21:00.:21:03.

us back to why we're here. -- working eight people. This takes us

:21:04.:21:07.

back to why we are here, what the government is proposing and white is

:21:08.:21:11.

wrong. I've also said at second reading, we welcome any reasonable

:21:12.:21:15.

proposals that encourage savings and we will work where we can with the

:21:16.:21:19.

UK Government to encourage pension savings. However, we very much see

:21:20.:21:22.

this bill as a missed opportunity for all of us to jump in what we

:21:23.:21:26.

should be focusing on, strengthened pension savings. -- to champion. Not

:21:27.:21:32.

focusing on another freeze that emanated from the laboratory of

:21:33.:21:35.

ideas from the previous Chancellor and his advisers, who had formed

:21:36.:21:40.

with constant tinkering of the savings landscape. The right

:21:41.:21:42.

honourable member for Tatton may have gone from the front bench, but

:21:43.:21:46.

his memory lingers on with this bill. Let us recall what the

:21:47.:21:51.

Chancellor said in his budget speech this year.

:21:52.:21:59.

Too many young people have no pensions and savings. They will tell

:22:00.:22:09.

you I, because they find pensions too complicated and inflexible and

:22:10.:22:14.

most young people find an agonising choice of either saving to buy a

:22:15.:22:20.

home or for their retirement. This assertion was not back. By evidence.

:22:21.:22:30.

It was half baked. Young people under the age of 30 have the lowest

:22:31.:22:36.

level of opt out rates of all those automatically enrolled into

:22:37.:22:41.

workplace pensions. Research has found that the opt out rate was 8%,

:22:42.:22:50.

compared with 9% of 30 to 49-year-olds and higher for those

:22:51.:22:59.

over. One would have thought they would look at the evidence and find

:23:00.:23:03.

the assertion for these measures are wrong.

:23:04.:23:13.

After much effort, auto enrolment has been successful at encouraging

:23:14.:23:20.

young people to save. That is what we should be prioritising and it is

:23:21.:23:27.

why we propose to delete the LISA from this bill. We know the Treasury

:23:28.:23:31.

flying kites and moving from existing arrangements for tax

:23:32.:23:41.

exempt. This would incentivise pension saving but would mean higher

:23:42.:23:47.

tax receipts today than pensions being taxed. A wheeze from the

:23:48.:23:55.

previous Chancellor to deliver higher taxation savings today rather

:23:56.:24:03.

than the future. A reverse modern Robin Hood. We must focus on pension

:24:04.:24:13.

savings and an auto enrolment and not undermine those efforts by

:24:14.:24:18.

inadvertently encouraging people to opt out through confusing consumers

:24:19.:24:22.

with new competing products. As been stated by the likes of jury

:24:23.:24:28.

insurance there is a real danger that the LISA could reverse the

:24:29.:24:33.

progress which has been made in encouraging people to save for later

:24:34.:24:38.

life. I agree with this. What is inconceivable is why the government

:24:39.:24:43.

are pushing ahead with this with such waste. With Osborne gone from

:24:44.:24:49.

the Cabinet, why are they holding onto his big ideas? Providers have

:24:50.:24:53.

expressed that they may not be ready for implementation in April 20 17.

:24:54.:25:00.

Surely to quality, safeguard and overcome the challenges of complex

:25:01.:25:04.

at each they should accept our amendment to remove the LISA on

:25:05.:25:14.

these grounds. Amendment 12, those under age 25 only qualify for tax

:25:15.:25:19.

credits if they are working under 16 hours a week. This amendment would

:25:20.:25:24.

ensure that such individuals would qualify for a help to save product

:25:25.:25:35.

if they qualified in other ways. Amendment 14 would able a workplace

:25:36.:25:44.

saving scheme which would see an individual automatically signed up

:25:45.:25:51.

to help to account. Amendment 13 would ensure that individuals

:25:52.:25:56.

subject to bankruptcy order would not be stripped of assets. Mr

:25:57.:26:07.

Speaker, we welcome the government help to save which we believe will

:26:08.:26:12.

help to boost the financial resilience of low-income households.

:26:13.:26:17.

A survey conducted demonstrates the importance of helping low-income

:26:18.:26:20.

households to save. Over three quarters of respondents said they

:26:21.:26:25.

need to pay unexpected costs at least once a year on average worth

:26:26.:26:32.

200- ?300. Many have cut back on essentials or have had to borrow

:26:33.:26:44.

money for these. Having ?1000 inaccessible cash savings reduced

:26:45.:26:46.

the likelihood of a household folding into debt by 44%. If each

:26:47.:26:57.

household had ?1000 save it would reduce the number of problem

:26:58.:27:03.

debtors. But the government could do much more. We will support these

:27:04.:27:10.

aspects of the bill but to out protection to those the government

:27:11.:27:18.

has not considered. Step change have a plan to tackle anticipated low

:27:19.:27:24.

take-up of help to save. We think our amendments for the under 25 this

:27:25.:27:30.

would help that. We also support step change's calls to bring forward

:27:31.:27:35.

the plan for no longer than six months after Royal assent. Auto

:27:36.:27:45.

enrolment review should be undertaken to see how we can enhance

:27:46.:27:50.

those numbers and help families Bill short-term savings. I hope the

:27:51.:27:55.

government will reflect on other methods this evening. There must be

:27:56.:28:02.

advice for those looking to invest in an ISA. I will be looking to

:28:03.:28:07.

remove LISA from this bill under Amendment 15. We must ensure there

:28:08.:28:14.

is no possibility of mis-selling. A failure to do so will see is back in

:28:15.:28:22.

this chamber discussing the Congress announces -- consequences and it

:28:23.:28:26.

will be the government fault. It's been a pretty wide-ranging debate

:28:27.:28:33.

with a relatively small number of speakers. Many of the arguments are

:28:34.:28:38.

those we gave a good airing two during our bill committee

:28:39.:28:41.

discussions. I look to address the key points made during the debate.

:28:42.:28:49.

I'll also set out why we think the government amendments are necessary.

:28:50.:28:58.

I'd like to inform members of a small change we are making to

:28:59.:29:03.

charges an early withdrawals on the lifetime LISA. These rules to affect

:29:04.:29:12.

the substance of the bill. As a courtesy I thought some members

:29:13.:29:17.

would be interested given some evidence raised by the Bill

:29:18.:29:30.

committee. The 25% charge recoups the bonus and adds a small

:29:31.:29:34.

additional charge which is fair protecting government funds and tax

:29:35.:29:39.

payers money. The bonus will not be paid monthly as it will from April

:29:40.:29:46.

2018 but as an annual bonus at year-end. It could create a

:29:47.:29:52.

difficult case where people receive a 25% charge before they receive the

:29:53.:29:56.

bonus so to improve the product for consumers I have confirmed that

:29:57.:30:08.

there will no charges before 2018. People can close their accounts with

:30:09.:30:15.

no government charged to do so. Any individual that closes the account

:30:16.:30:20.

will be able to open another LISA in 2017-8 of they wish. That means the

:30:21.:30:28.

25% government charge on withdrawals other than for a first-time house

:30:29.:30:36.

purchase will apply as heard the overarching policy intention.

:30:37.:30:42.

Turning to amendment three, about data sharing. On this issue I wrote

:30:43.:30:47.

to the honourable member for Bootle and the honourable member for Ross,

:30:48.:30:56.

Skye and Lochaber. We have heard that the lifetime ISA will provide

:30:57.:31:01.

an eligible first-time buyer a new choice for saving for a first home

:31:02.:31:06.

in additional to the helped ISA scheme. Both include the 25% bonus.

:31:07.:31:20.

When we first announced the LISA we intended them to pay into both

:31:21.:31:24.

schemes but they will only be able to use the bonus from one scheme to

:31:25.:31:37.

purchase a property. It also provides appropriate safeguards and

:31:38.:31:43.

sanctions in relation to the use of account holders information

:31:44.:31:47.

including a criminal offence for unlawful disclosure of that

:31:48.:31:53.

information. This is a straightforward amendment that will

:31:54.:31:57.

ensure the scheme rules around government bonuses can be

:31:58.:32:04.

effectively administered. With regard to residency conditions. Help

:32:05.:32:14.

to save. A targeted scheme that will support lower-income savers by

:32:15.:32:17.

providing a generous government bonus on savings. It is only right

:32:18.:32:22.

that this should be available made while the account holder is in the

:32:23.:32:26.

UK or has an appropriate connection with the UK such as Crown servants

:32:27.:32:36.

overseas. The bill already provides for a UK being in -- an individual

:32:37.:32:46.

in the UK to open an account. These amendments address the situation by

:32:47.:32:49.

allowing regulations to provide a monthly payment limit. That helped

:32:50.:32:54.

to save can be set at nil in certain cases. We intend to use this power

:32:55.:33:01.

to ensure that individuals cannot earn an additional government bonus

:33:02.:33:04.

when they are not in the UK don't have the appropriate connection to

:33:05.:33:05.

the UK. This approach broadly mirrors the

:33:06.:33:26.

arrangements for ISA accounts. A penalty will not apply where there

:33:27.:33:32.

is a reasonable excuse for failure to notify and anyone who receives a

:33:33.:33:36.

penalty reserves the right to appeal. These amendments allow an

:33:37.:33:45.

effective targeting of the generous help to save bonus so it can only be

:33:46.:33:50.

earned on savings made by individuals in the UK or with an

:33:51.:33:54.

appropriate connection and on that basis I hope the house will accept

:33:55.:34:00.

them. Some of the non-government amendments. Just to summarise the

:34:01.:34:13.

main response. On clause seven, advice for people opening either

:34:14.:34:16.

type of account. We have heard concerns that people might not get

:34:17.:34:20.

all the advice they need. The regulation of providers is a role

:34:21.:34:25.

for the independent Financial Conduct Authority. It will likewise

:34:26.:34:31.

set the framework for the LISA. They are consulting on their approach and

:34:32.:34:35.

have set out their suggested approach. The government wants to

:34:36.:34:39.

ensure that people have the information they need to make

:34:40.:34:44.

important decisions and we will provide clear information to ensure

:34:45.:34:50.

they make appropriate and impartial information available. At the risk

:34:51.:34:59.

of and dating this advice is that it makes the products prohibitively

:35:00.:35:02.

expensive for many people. We were talking about the cost associated

:35:03.:35:09.

with mandating financial advice. While I understand the sentiment

:35:10.:35:12.

behind these clauses I urge members to withdraw it and look at what the

:35:13.:35:20.

SCA are recommend in their initial suggestions. I'll take a brief

:35:21.:35:32.

intervention. I ungrateful but I don't think speaking for 20 minutes

:35:33.:35:41.

as unreasonable. What evidence is that individuals will be better off

:35:42.:35:50.

under a LISA rather than a pension question I accept that the

:35:51.:36:00.

honourable gentleman has an objection in principle to the LISA.

:36:01.:36:04.

I have given examples where the government will steer people towards

:36:05.:36:10.

advice. We are keen as anyone that people have access to advice but I

:36:11.:36:13.

would urge him to look at the consultation. Let the turn to

:36:14.:36:24.

amendment to and help to save and credit unions as providers. Let me

:36:25.:36:30.

make a few general comments. In particular on credit unions. I

:36:31.:36:36.

absolutely agree that they pay a key role in providing affordable credit.

:36:37.:36:42.

The government is keen to support them. Our manifesto committed to

:36:43.:36:47.

support the credit union movement making financial services more

:36:48.:36:54.

successful. We support the expansion project and have provided ?38

:36:55.:36:58.

million worth of funding to help the sector modernise and become self

:36:59.:37:04.

sustainable. We increased the maximum interest rates that credit

:37:05.:37:05.

unions can charge. We have chosen to appoint as the

:37:06.:37:16.

single provider of help to save occurrence as it provides the most

:37:17.:37:20.

cost-effective way of ensuring national coverage for the scheme. We

:37:21.:37:23.

do acknowledge the important role that credit unions play in local

:37:24.:37:26.

communities but it became clear during the summer's consultation

:37:27.:37:31.

that a multiple provider model reliant on financial providers

:37:32.:37:36.

including credit union offering accounts on a voluntary basis would

:37:37.:37:39.

just not guarantee the UK- wide coverage that we wanted. And by

:37:40.:37:46.

appointing NAS NI as the scheme provider, we can achieve that

:37:47.:37:50.

nationwide account provisions. It also means we can work with a single

:37:51.:37:55.

provider doing ensure that counts are easily accessible by all the

:37:56.:37:59.

eligible people, removing a significant administrative and

:38:00.:38:04.

compliance cost associated with a range of different providers.

:38:05.:38:07.

However, I do want to stress, and I hope this is of reassurance

:38:08.:38:09.

particularly to the honourable lady was not on the bill committee, that

:38:10.:38:14.

the builders are low HMRC to approve a credit union to be unauthorised

:38:15.:38:18.

account provider if we decide to adopt a multiple provider model of

:38:19.:38:22.

account provisions in the future. So NSNI is adopted as the provider at

:38:23.:38:26.

this stage and regulations but there is nothing on the face of the bill

:38:27.:38:29.

that would preclude expanding the provider model on the future, I just

:38:30.:38:33.

want to give her that reassurance, and the honourable gentleman for

:38:34.:38:37.

Harrow West. There is nothing precluding credit unions being

:38:38.:38:41.

further involved in the future. They are very grateful to her forgiving

:38:42.:38:45.

way. I listened with interest to the two speeches opposite about the

:38:46.:38:49.

credit unions, and I myself am a member of one. Will she looks

:38:50.:38:53.

specifically, because I think what the honourable lady from Wallsall of

:38:54.:38:56.

asking, this is an opportunity to expand the role of credit Unions by

:38:57.:39:00.

giving the preferred provider status, so when she considers

:39:01.:39:06.

expanding potentially alternative providers beyond NSNI we should look

:39:07.:39:11.

at expanding it to credit unions solely as an alternative to NSNI

:39:12.:39:16.

rather than more properly? I hope my honourable friend will understand

:39:17.:39:18.

that it would be pre-emptive of me to make a commitment like that at

:39:19.:39:21.

this stage but we have been very clear that we think credit unions

:39:22.:39:24.

have a big role to play. They are not precluded by the primary

:39:25.:39:27.

legislation from being part of a multiple provider model in the

:39:28.:39:33.

future. And indeed my officials have been in constructive discussions

:39:34.:39:35.

with the credit union movement throughout the passage of this bill.

:39:36.:39:39.

We are working with the sector, the credit union sector, to ensure the

:39:40.:39:43.

final design of help to save meets the need of the target audience and

:39:44.:39:47.

I know the economics Secretary is looking forward to meeting the

:39:48.:39:49.

honourable member for Harrow West and the honourable member for South

:39:50.:39:54.

Ribble to discuss the issue further with the Association of British

:39:55.:39:57.

credit unions. This is not about excluding the credit union movement

:39:58.:40:01.

at all. We are in regular, constructive discussion with them.

:40:02.:40:05.

We just feel at this stage it does not allow us to offer that simple,

:40:06.:40:12.

nationwide model to... Of course. I thank the Minister for what she is a

:40:13.:40:16.

thing. Our concern is that savings of a critical part of the ability of

:40:17.:40:20.

credit unions to be able to deliver the services that they provide. The

:40:21.:40:24.

argument she is making does not preclude the amendment that we are

:40:25.:40:27.

talking about today and that the Co-op MPs have suggested that would

:40:28.:40:30.

enable the conversations she is talking about to happen. There would

:40:31.:40:35.

be no suggestion the Rubio legislative bar, for she is making

:40:36.:40:41.

the case for the amendment we are making by suggesting it is what she

:40:42.:40:44.

wants to do in future. I am saying there is nothing precluding is

:40:45.:40:46.

happening on the base of the bill, for the amendment of unnecessary. We

:40:47.:40:50.

are in constructive discussions with the credit unions and they are not

:40:51.:40:53.

recorded from the future. I have just laid out why they, throughout

:40:54.:40:59.

the consultation process, we identified that was not a suitable

:41:00.:41:02.

model for the starting point of this. But I honestly think that we

:41:03.:41:08.

are essentially coming at this from the same point of view and I do hope

:41:09.:41:11.

in the light of what I have said the honourable members will look at

:41:12.:41:14.

withdrawing this amendment and we will continue to have those, as I

:41:15.:41:19.

say, constructive discussions. Let me turn to amendment seven, which is

:41:20.:41:23.

about the bonus being paid every six months. This, honestly, seeks to

:41:24.:41:30.

baby bonus every six months rather than at the two and four year mark

:41:31.:41:35.

on the opt is a product. We believe paying the bonus at two years and a

:41:36.:41:39.

good majority strikes the right balance between giving people are

:41:40.:41:43.

not to build up their savings and developed a savings habit and

:41:44.:41:46.

allowing them to access it within an appropriate timescale. That is

:41:47.:41:49.

supported by evidence from similar savings schemes. Some members will

:41:50.:41:53.

be aware of the savings Gateway pilot that we run Match of The Day 2

:41:54.:41:57.

year period of savings is optimum for embedding the saving habit. I

:41:58.:42:01.

want to emphasise to members that people will still have full access

:42:02.:42:05.

to their savings with help to save, so only if they are only able to

:42:06.:42:09.

save for six months, they will still be entitled to receive a bonus at

:42:10.:42:14.

the two-year pointer maturity. I hope that reassures honourable

:42:15.:42:17.

members that we have looked carefully at this. I accept that it

:42:18.:42:21.

is to an extent a judgment call but I think we have evidence from the

:42:22.:42:26.

pilots, savings Gateway, as well as from other peer-reviewed research

:42:27.:42:30.

which shows that the savings habit is embedded around about the 19-24

:42:31.:42:36.

month as the optimum time, and therefore we think that is the right

:42:37.:42:41.

balance that we have struck. Again, honourable members might consider

:42:42.:42:44.

withdrawing the amendment. Nine, ten and 11, around the contribution

:42:45.:42:50.

limits, not many members spoke specifically to this. We explored it

:42:51.:42:53.

quite building committee. This is about being able to actually

:42:54.:43:00.

contribute an average, a two monthly average, of ?50. Our consultation

:43:01.:43:04.

specifically addressed the question of whether or not individuals should

:43:05.:43:08.

be able to pay in more than the ?50 limit in certain circumstances, and

:43:09.:43:11.

respondents were very clear that this would add complexity to the

:43:12.:43:14.

scheme for both savers and account providers. It is worth notifying

:43:15.:43:20.

that in the OBR certified forecast it was suggested that people would

:43:21.:43:25.

deposit ?27 50 into their accounts on average. I would suggest that the

:43:26.:43:29.

monthly limit is adequate and this amendment might be withdrawn.

:43:30.:43:35.

Amendment 12 of about eligibility for under 25. Again explored during

:43:36.:43:38.

the course of the committee. Touch down briefly by the honourable

:43:39.:43:45.

member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. Our intention is to passport people

:43:46.:43:50.

into eligibility, to help to save and working tax credit, and from UC.

:43:51.:43:54.

It is a well-established way of targeting people on lower incomes

:43:55.:43:57.

and we think it is the most simple and effective method for determining

:43:58.:44:02.

eligibility. Importantly, it removes the need for people to completely

:44:03.:44:05.

further means test to prove they are eligible for an account or to

:44:06.:44:10.

contact the government. We know both of those things are deterrents when

:44:11.:44:13.

it comes to stopping people opening accounts. It also avoids additional

:44:14.:44:18.

costs associated with developing a new and complex eligibility checking

:44:19.:44:23.

system. Amendment 13, again touched on by the honourable member speaking

:44:24.:44:26.

from the front bench for the SNP, was about exempting bonuses from

:44:27.:44:32.

bankruptcy proceedings. The approach we have taken is consistent with

:44:33.:44:37.

what we have done elsewhere. For example, in the benefits system,

:44:38.:44:39.

where deductions are sometimes made to claims to repay debts, we think

:44:40.:44:45.

that in reality any accrued bonus represents an asset for the account

:44:46.:44:50.

holder and should be treated as such during any insolvency proceedings.

:44:51.:44:52.

Again, I would urge members to withdraw. Turning to new clause one,

:44:53.:44:58.

with the honourable member for Harrow West asserted his remarks,

:44:59.:45:01.

and that is the savers who are on the payroll deduction, also touched

:45:02.:45:06.

on in amendment 14. Both seek to introduce rules to allow people to

:45:07.:45:10.

automatically deduct amounts from their salary into a help to save

:45:11.:45:16.

account, and amendment 14 goes further by introducing

:45:17.:45:19.

auto-enrolment for help to save, allowing employers or benefit being

:45:20.:45:22.

bodies to divert money from employees' paid to a halt to save

:45:23.:45:27.

account, unless they opt out. As I said at the committee stage, we want

:45:28.:45:30.

the decision to save into a help to save account to be an active choice

:45:31.:45:34.

made by eligible individuals at a time that is right for them, and for

:45:35.:45:37.

many that will mean saving the Exelby, putting aside what they can

:45:38.:45:39.

afford each month, rather than committing to a fixed amount

:45:40.:45:52.

deducted each month from their salary. Again, there is nothing in

:45:53.:45:54.

the legislation to stop an employer offering payroll deduction for help

:45:55.:45:57.

to save to their employees, but we do not intend to make it a statutory

:45:58.:45:59.

requirement for employers to offer payroll deduction for help to save.

:46:00.:46:01.

Automatic enrolment into workplace pensions must remain a priority for

:46:02.:46:06.

employers. There are a number of new clauses, two, four, five and six,

:46:07.:46:10.

seeking to place a duty on the government to review published

:46:11.:46:13.

analysis on certain aspects of the policies. In all of these cases, I

:46:14.:46:17.

would note to the House that we have already contacted, conducted an

:46:18.:46:22.

impact assessment published alongside this bill. We published

:46:23.:46:26.

the motive distribution analysis is Autumn Statement of all of the

:46:27.:46:30.

policies implemented during the 1524 hrs, including NSNI and help to

:46:31.:46:36.

save, and believe it is important to look at the cumulative impact,

:46:37.:46:39.

rather than the impact of individual measures in isolation. The

:46:40.:46:42.

distribution analysis which the government has published since 2010

:46:43.:46:47.

have always taken it live that made the cumulative rather than measured

:46:48.:46:51.

by major approach. We will of course keep the LISA under review to ensure

:46:52.:46:56.

it is meeting its objectives and regularly publish a wide range of

:46:57.:47:00.

detail about the take-up of the government supported savings

:47:01.:47:03.

accounts, such as ISA, and intend to take a similar approach with the

:47:04.:47:06.

wife to take a similar approach with the lifetime either. There is a lot

:47:07.:47:11.

we have already done here. -- with the lifetime either. Any impact that

:47:12.:47:16.

-- from the LISA is likely to be very difficult to detect from other

:47:17.:47:22.

factors in the honourable member for brittle revert to that on the fact

:47:23.:47:25.

that we had touched on that during the committee. Indeed, as we

:47:26.:47:28.

mentioned there, some of the accusations that this is a product

:47:29.:47:33.

that is only there for the wealthy I think to not there scrutiny when you

:47:34.:47:36.

look at how Help To Buy ISA has been used, where it has been used to buy

:47:37.:47:40.

homes worth on average 160,000 thousand pounds, well under the

:47:41.:47:46.

property price cap. I do not believe those accusations are fair. On the

:47:47.:47:49.

interaction with the automatic enrolment, which is obviously

:47:50.:47:53.

dominating much of the comment by the honourable gentleman leading for

:47:54.:47:57.

the Scottish National Party, again, we covered this in some detail and I

:47:58.:48:02.

can once again stressed the government's absolute commitment to

:48:03.:48:04.

automatic enrolment. It is quite wrong to say that we seek to the

:48:05.:48:09.

rule that. The lifetime either and the Treasury is quite clear on this

:48:10.:48:14.

is designed to be a complement to automatic enrolment and workplace

:48:15.:48:17.

pensions, and not a replacement. Our costings consultancy, assume that

:48:18.:48:21.

people will object of their workplace pension in order to pay

:48:22.:48:26.

into too early to. Again, we have cited the figure is already very,

:48:27.:48:29.

very low figures of uptake rates so far, encouraging result. Taking all

:48:30.:48:34.

of those things together, we do not believe the new clauses are

:48:35.:48:36.

necessary and again I would urge honourable members to withdraw them.

:48:37.:48:40.

Obviously amendments 15-22 effectively cancel the lifetime

:48:41.:48:44.

either from the bill. It is quite evident from my comments so far that

:48:45.:48:48.

I have no intention of accepting those amendments, and again it is

:48:49.:48:53.

clear that we have a disagreement in principle. I did think the

:48:54.:48:55.

honourable gentleman for Ross, Skye and Lochaber bordered on hyperbole

:48:56.:49:02.

was about the accusations against the measure. He says he is prepared

:49:03.:49:05.

to look at any reasonable measure which else able to save. We know

:49:06.:49:08.

from the conversations that have taken place on the complex subject

:49:09.:49:12.

of saving for the future that this is a product that will help many

:49:13.:49:15.

people say. It is a direct response to the Commons that we had to a

:49:16.:49:19.

public consultation about the complexity of savings options. No

:49:20.:49:23.

matter, I am going to press on in this regard. No, we have had a good

:49:24.:49:31.

debate of that committee stage and here and I am going to press on.

:49:32.:49:33.

Shouting NO, I HAVE TO DATE TAKEN SLIGHTLY

:49:34.:49:36.

LESS TIME THAN THE HONOURABLE GENTLEMAN... She is clearly not

:49:37.:49:43.

giving way, it is apparent to everybody else, I am sure it is now

:49:44.:49:46.

apparent to the honourable gentleman. I am not going to accept

:49:47.:49:50.

the amendments seeking to cancel have to go. I repair him to the

:49:51.:49:55.

SCA's consultation. I do not think that they would recognise his

:49:56.:49:58.

comments and I do not either. On amendment one, the maturity period

:49:59.:50:03.

of the account on help to save, this would change the normal maturity

:50:04.:50:11.

period from 48 to 24 month and in practice and that would mean that

:50:12.:50:14.

people could only save for two years, rather than poor, and we have

:50:15.:50:17.

designed the scheme so that people can the event in a help to save and

:50:18.:50:21.

get a government bonus after two years and continue to save and

:50:22.:50:24.

receive a further bonus when the account page is after four years,

:50:25.:50:26.

and we have done that because we want the target group to be able to

:50:27.:50:29.

save as regularly as other people and they may take longer to save

:50:30.:50:31.

towards that vital rainy day fund. Secondly, it provides an incentive

:50:32.:50:46.

for people to continue saving beyond two years, which fits our objective

:50:47.:50:48.

to encourage people to develop a long-term savings habit. Again, I

:50:49.:50:50.

hope those amendments wait, it might withdraw. Amendment sex would delay

:50:51.:50:52.

commencement until April 2019, when automatic enrolment to workplace

:50:53.:50:55.

pensions will be fully rolled out. We have been very clear we do not

:50:56.:50:59.

expect lifetime I felt to drive opt outs from pensions saving, and there

:51:00.:51:03.

is no reason to delay. In fact, that Italy would disadvantage those who

:51:04.:51:09.

wish to open a LISA and have been preparing for a 2017 lunch. Again,

:51:10.:51:14.

the honourable gentleman completely disregarded for example the fact

:51:15.:51:17.

there are people who are self-employed who did not have an

:51:18.:51:21.

option of accessing a workplace pension scheme. That was something

:51:22.:51:23.

that came imagine the evidence to the bill committee. Not a about the

:51:24.:51:28.

self-employed. No, I will not. It would also delay helped to save for

:51:29.:51:34.

a year, disadvantage, disadvantage in favour is only low income who

:51:35.:51:38.

would benefit from the skin. I am passionate about the help to save

:51:39.:51:40.

scheme, as a lot of honourable members are, and want to see it go

:51:41.:51:44.

ahead as planned mounted to work with all of the people mentioned,

:51:45.:51:50.

the credit unions and churches, to make sure that we absolutely exceed

:51:51.:51:54.

the target for help to save in terms of take-up. I would be delighted if

:51:55.:51:57.

we vastly exceed the target. I'm grateful for the level of

:51:58.:52:15.

interest the members have shown in this important area of helping

:52:16.:52:17.

people to save and I appreciate that many of the amendments were made the

:52:18.:52:27.

spirit of trying to I have set out why I don't feel the new clauses are

:52:28.:52:33.

necessary. I hope they do not push for a division.

:52:34.:52:41.

That notwithstanding I am confident the bill will further the government

:52:42.:52:46.

aim of supporting people in the different ways they want to save for

:52:47.:52:50.

the future and, of course, I commend it to the house. The final words are

:52:51.:53:00.

for the member for Harrow West. This has been a very short but

:53:01.:53:03.

interesting debate. I come find my brief final remarks to the three

:53:04.:53:11.

amendments tabled in my name. The member for Walthamstow made a

:53:12.:53:15.

characteristically excellent speech dwelling on the debt soon army

:53:16.:53:20.

coming our way. She rightly alluded to the challenges many face in

:53:21.:53:27.

providing a service through local employers to local employees. My

:53:28.:53:33.

honourable friend for Bootle in his excellent speech from the front

:53:34.:53:38.

bench, perhaps inspired again by listening to the works of

:53:39.:53:42.

Shostakovich of which I know he is a devotee, rightly worried that the

:53:43.:53:48.

number of people who would sign up for Help To Save given the numbers

:53:49.:53:52.

eligible would not be as great if credit unions were not able to be

:53:53.:53:59.

included in the provision of those providers who can offer help to

:54:00.:54:05.

save. I was very interested in the minister's response. I hear her

:54:06.:54:10.

concerns about new clause one and I look forward to exploring those

:54:11.:54:18.

little more the meeting with her fellow minister for Brighton. I was

:54:19.:54:23.

grateful to hear her assurance an amendment one and a possible

:54:24.:54:27.

reduction to 12 months rather than 24 months. As a result, I will not

:54:28.:54:33.

move to a division either amendment one or new clause one but I will

:54:34.:54:42.

seek to press to a division amendment to. I don't think the

:54:43.:54:48.

minister made a convincing case as to why credit unions should not be

:54:49.:54:52.

allowed to offer this product at this point. I think it's clear that

:54:53.:55:03.

NSNI will be a good national provider but it isn't clear white

:55:04.:55:07.

local credit unions cannot offer the product at the same time. Given the

:55:08.:55:11.

efforts that the Treasury are going to it seems odd not to take

:55:12.:55:15.

advantage of the offer credit unions can provide to get more people

:55:16.:55:21.

signed up. In that spirit, I intend to press amendment to to a division

:55:22.:55:29.

but not close to or amendment one. Is it the house's pleasure that new

:55:30.:55:35.

clause one be withdrawn? By leave withdrawn. New clause to to be read

:55:36.:55:53.

a second time? Division! Clear the lobby!

:55:54.:57:47.

Order! The question is, the new clause to be read as second time?

:57:48.:58:08.

Tell others for the ayes, and for the noes.

:58:09.:04:03.

200 200 the Allies to the right, 200 the nose to the left, 200 the nose

:04:04.:08:48.

have it. The noes amendments 15 to be moved formerly. The question is

:08:49.:08:54.

that amendment 15 be made. As many of that opinion of the division.

:08:55.:11:39.

The question is that amendment 15 be made. As many of that opinion the

:11:40.:11:53.

iMac. Of the contrary tellers for the Patrick Grady, tellers for,

:11:54.:17:05.

The ayes to the right, 48. The noes to the left, 248. The ayes to the

:17:06.:21:37.

right 45. The noes to the left, 284. The noes have it! Unlock! The

:21:38.:21:45.

question is that amendment three be made. As many of that opinion say

:21:46.:22:01.

aye. The ayes have it! The question is that amendment to be made. As

:22:02.:22:08.

many of that opinion say aye. The contrary. Division! Clear the lobby!

:22:09.:23:10.

Order! The question is that amendment to be made.

:23:11.:23:27.

Tell for the ayes. Tellers for the noes.

:23:28.:30:13.

The noes on the left 279. The noes have it! Unlock. With the lead of

:30:14.:33:12.

the house we will take amendments four and five together. The question

:33:13.:33:17.

is that amendment is four and five be made. The ayes have it! Third

:33:18.:33:44.

reading. The question is that the bill be now read a third time. Jane

:33:45.:33:51.

Ellison. Thank you very much. I beg to move that the bill now be read

:33:52.:33:57.

for a third time. Can I thank all the right honourable and honourable

:33:58.:34:00.

members who have taken time to scrutinise the bill through its

:34:01.:34:04.

passage through this house and for subjecting it to good constructive

:34:05.:34:08.

debate which I think has been very helpful. We want to make it easier

:34:09.:34:14.

to build up savings and meet ambitions to be secure in personal

:34:15.:34:19.

finances and we set to work to make this the case. We have put an end to

:34:20.:34:24.

17 million people having to pay tax on the interest received on their

:34:25.:34:28.

savings and we announced the biggest ever increase on the ice allowance

:34:29.:34:39.

from April next year. This bill carries on this hugely important

:34:40.:34:40.

work. The lifetime ISA is a positive move for

:34:41.:34:57.

savers, a compliment for pensions. With help to save which has enjoyed

:34:58.:35:05.

cross-party support in the house we know why this is so important. The

:35:06.:35:11.

Centre for Social Justice tells is an estimated 3 million households

:35:12.:35:16.

have no savings at all. This is a hugely important step we are making

:35:17.:35:19.

to move forward with this important account. The passage of the bill

:35:20.:35:29.

through the house has been met with thoughtful and constructive

:35:30.:35:39.

challenge but it is a fundamental about helping people to save for

:35:40.:35:42.

their future and I have great pleasure in recommending it to the

:35:43.:35:47.

house. The question is that the bill be read a third time. I'd like to

:35:48.:35:55.

echo the sentiments of the Minister in relation to the scrutiny this

:35:56.:35:59.

bill has had. I'd like to thank all the witnesses who came to the

:36:00.:36:05.

sessions we had and the written evidence we've had from everyone and

:36:06.:36:09.

all the informal information we've had from contacts in relation to the

:36:10.:36:20.

Bill. Nobody has any objection to helping people to save, it's a

:36:21.:36:24.

question as to how you managed to do that. We are not convinced this will

:36:25.:36:31.

do that. We don't think there is sufficient evidence to back up what

:36:32.:36:35.

the minister said and we don't think it addresses this shortage of

:36:36.:36:41.

housing. It's a question of whether it is value for money. We think it,

:36:42.:36:46.

brigades the market and introduces potentially a Trojan Horse. Not

:36:47.:36:51.

everybody is convinced about it. In relation to help to buy, for those

:36:52.:37:00.

on low income I'm not convinced it does the business for them. It puts

:37:01.:37:04.

a little drop back into a very big ocean. I think the government should

:37:05.:37:09.

listen to what many people have said out there but nevertheless we accept

:37:10.:37:13.

the fact that we need to help people to save for the future and we think

:37:14.:37:17.

that all the information provided to as sets the scene for continued

:37:18.:37:25.

future debates on this matter in due course. I'd like to thank the

:37:26.:37:29.

Minister for her helpfulness and civility throughout the whole

:37:30.:37:30.

process. I have to say that I think this is

:37:31.:37:39.

legislation that we will be repenting at in due course. We

:37:40.:37:44.

cannot get away from the fact when all the evidence that was presented

:37:45.:37:47.

to us, we look at the evidence that was presented by the EBI, it makes

:37:48.:37:51.

it absolutely abundantly clear that anyone that has the opportunity to

:37:52.:37:57.

invest in a workplace pension is going to be worse off by investing

:37:58.:38:05.

in a LISA than they would be any pension. When I listened to the

:38:06.:38:08.

Minister talking about those who are self who do not have the advantages

:38:09.:38:12.

of auto-enrolment, what we should have been doing is bringing forward

:38:13.:38:15.

legislation that deals with that problem. We have the opportunity

:38:16.:38:21.

when we review auto-enrolment next to do this. There is no need for

:38:22.:38:24.

this legislation for ordinary people. Ordinary people are not

:38:25.:38:28.

going to benefit from the LISA. Let me put it to the House that what

:38:29.:38:33.

this is going to do is reward those that have already maxed out on their

:38:34.:38:38.

pension schemes by giving them another opportunity that will help

:38:39.:38:43.

them with the government bonus. Not so much about what they call a LISA,

:38:44.:38:47.

it is what we on this side of the House would call the report. The

:38:48.:38:51.

really useful perks for extremely rich Tories. Because, Madame Deputy

:38:52.:38:57.

Speaker, these are the only people that will benefit from this

:38:58.:39:02.

legislation tonight. And when it comes down to what is really

:39:03.:39:08.

important in this, and I am delighted that True Potential have

:39:09.:39:11.

published their evidence today, because let me just give you to

:39:12.:39:15.

maxed from what they have published, 30% of people aged between 25 and

:39:16.:39:21.

40, when given the opportunity, would choose a LISA instead of a

:39:22.:39:29.

pension. 58% of 25-34 -year-olds would use the LISA for retirement

:39:30.:39:33.

savings. Now, we know that those that have the opportunity to invest

:39:34.:39:36.

in a pension will always be better off, as I said at second reading,

:39:37.:39:41.

what this Government has wilfully done in going through the lobbies

:39:42.:39:47.

and second reading is created the circumstances where young people in

:39:48.:39:51.

this country are going to be mis-sold LISAs. This Government

:39:52.:39:55.

should be utterly, utterly ashamed for itself. Kelvin Hopkins. I was a

:39:56.:40:04.

member of the bill committee and I made many of the points that I wish

:40:05.:40:07.

to make at that time. Sadly, I was not able to be here for the first

:40:08.:40:11.

part of debate but I wanted to see a few words in support of what we have

:40:12.:40:13.

heard from the opposition front bench. My honourable friend and the

:40:14.:40:18.

leader for the Scottish Nationalists have expressed very strong words of

:40:19.:40:22.

scepticism about the whole bill and I have to say I share them, and in

:40:23.:40:27.

fact reinforce them. For the very poorest, what they need, Madame

:40:28.:40:30.

Deputy Speaker, is a much bigger state Pension and beyond that, for

:40:31.:40:37.

many people, a compulsory, earning seven related state pension scheme

:40:38.:40:39.

would be much better value and would guarantee that everybody said some

:40:40.:40:44.

of their earnings for a decent old age. I think that would be the much

:40:45.:40:49.

more positive way forward and I echo what has been set from the

:40:50.:40:52.

opposition front bench, and thank you for this opportunity to speak.

:40:53.:41:00.

Gareth Thomas. It is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend the

:41:01.:41:02.

religion. I did not have the privilege of serving on the bill

:41:03.:41:08.

committee. -- friend for illusion. But I did take part at second

:41:09.:41:14.

reading and earlier in the discussions at report stage. And I

:41:15.:41:18.

welcome the commitment of ministers to continue to engage with credit

:41:19.:41:21.

unions, which was the primary issue that I thought to raise over the

:41:22.:41:30.

course of... Of the bill's passage in this chamber. There is one

:41:31.:41:36.

further issue that we did not address, in particular about help to

:41:37.:41:40.

save. With a national provider, a National savings and investment, it

:41:41.:41:47.

would be relatively easy to disaggregate the data of who is

:41:48.:41:52.

taking advantage of the help to save product, and to publish that in an

:41:53.:41:57.

unorganised form. So that we can strike which postcodes are seeing

:41:58.:42:02.

the help to save products taken advantage of. And I read that in the

:42:03.:42:06.

context of work that the Treasury are doing with the British banking

:42:07.:42:13.

Association in encouraging banks to publish data about what financial

:42:14.:42:16.

services products are being offered to whom, and who is taking advantage

:42:17.:42:21.

of them. The banks have been reluctantly forced to reveal where

:42:22.:42:30.

they are lending, but the quality of information which has been provided

:42:31.:42:33.

is not yet perfect. It is a journey that we are on with the banks and

:42:34.:42:37.

one of the things that the Treasury could do once they get these bill

:42:38.:42:42.

through both houses, as they seem likely to do, is to require the

:42:43.:42:50.

company to publish on a post code bases were people are taking up the

:42:51.:42:56.

hill to save product. I commend that do ministers. I hope they will take

:42:57.:42:59.

that up and I hope that members of the other house will explore this

:43:00.:43:04.

particular additional issue in a little bit more detail. The question

:43:05.:43:14.

is the bill be now read the third time. As many of that opinion say I.

:43:15.:43:20.

Of the contrary no. The ayes habit. The ayes habit. We now come to item

:43:21.:43:29.

number two, the motion on the welfare cap. Call the Minister to

:43:30.:43:38.

make the motion, Caroline. Thank you, made Deputy Speaker. Today's

:43:39.:43:42.

motion is about the government taking accountability for welfare

:43:43.:43:45.

spending before this Island and indeed before the public. Madame

:43:46.:43:49.

Deputy Speaker, this debate is about the welfare cap. I hope honourable

:43:50.:43:53.

and Right Honourable members from both sides will agree that are

:43:54.:43:56.

welfare system is about more than just the numbers. We have a set of

:43:57.:43:59.

principles to build a welfare system that works for everyone. We need to

:44:00.:44:04.

look beyond just benefits and work with employers, health professionals

:44:05.:44:08.

and the voluntary sector. We need to ensure the system supports people to

:44:09.:44:12.

get into work, to stay in work and to progress in work. We must offer

:44:13.:44:17.

care for the minority of people who cannot work, whether through

:44:18.:44:20.

sickness, disability or personal circumstances. We introduced the

:44:21.:44:27.

welfare cap in 2013 to strengthen control of overspending and improve

:44:28.:44:30.

parliamentary accountability for that level of spending. The welfare

:44:31.:44:35.

cap is an important part of fiscal framework, and it plays a crucial

:44:36.:44:38.

role in delivering our commitment for a sustainable and affordable

:44:39.:44:42.

welfare system. Our welfare reforms are creating a system which makes

:44:43.:44:47.

sure a always pays, is fair to those who receive it, but also to those

:44:48.:44:51.

who pay for it. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility

:44:52.:44:55.

assess performance against the welfare cap at Autumn Statement and

:44:56.:44:59.

it is now forecast that the current cap will not be met in each year

:45:00.:45:05.

until 2020, 21. A similar debate was held in this House on the 16th of

:45:06.:45:09.

December 2015 on the beach of the welfare cap in the years 's 20 18

:45:10.:45:14.

and 20 Flash 19. Resulting from the recession not to pursue the tax

:45:15.:45:19.

credits measure proposed at Summer Budget 2015. This has agreed that

:45:20.:45:23.

the breach of the gap in the earlier years of the forecast period is

:45:24.:45:26.

justified and that no further debate will be required on this specific

:45:27.:45:30.

matter. There the motion we are putting today before the House seeks

:45:31.:45:33.

agreement on the justification of the breach of the cap in the later

:45:34.:45:37.

years of the forecast period to stop that is in 2019, 2020, and 2020, 20

:45:38.:45:46.

21. I would may like to outline the reasons for which the cap is

:45:47.:45:50.

forecast not to be met. This is due to inflation and spend on disability

:45:51.:45:54.

benefits, partly due to the decision not to pursue the personal

:45:55.:45:56.

independence payment measure proposed that budget 2016. As the

:45:57.:46:01.

her decision not to pursue tax credits measure, the government has

:46:02.:46:04.

once more listened and responded to public concerns and decided not to

:46:05.:46:09.

pursue the ginger is personal independence payment. Higher

:46:10.:46:12.

forecast inflation is another factor contributing to the cap not being

:46:13.:46:19.

met in 2020, and 21. In view of the uncertainty facing the economy,

:46:20.:46:22.

inflation is now forecast to be higher than when the cap was set at

:46:23.:46:27.

Summer Budget 2015. I would like to reassure this House that the latest

:46:28.:46:31.

forecasts do not mean that welfare spending is out of control. As my

:46:32.:46:34.

right honourable friend the Chancellor announced at Autumn

:46:35.:46:37.

Statement, we will deliver the welfare savings we have already

:46:38.:46:40.

announced and legislated for. I would also like to repeat that the

:46:41.:46:44.

government has no plans for further welfare savings in this Parliament.

:46:45.:46:48.

This Government believes that work is the best route out of poverty.

:46:49.:46:52.

This is why we want a welfare system which helps people who can work get

:46:53.:46:56.

back into work, but also supports those in most need. Our welfare

:46:57.:47:01.

reforms are working. Employment has risen by two million since 2010, and

:47:02.:47:08.

is now at a record high of 74. Unemployment is at an 11 year low.

:47:09.:47:13.

Universal credit is revolutionising the welfare system, enshrining the

:47:14.:47:18.

principle but working more always pays more. And at the benefit cap,

:47:19.:47:21.

we are restoring fairness to the system whilst ensuring there is a

:47:22.:47:25.

clear incentive to work. There are now over 1 million fewer people on

:47:26.:47:29.

edge over benefits. Three million disabled people are now in

:47:30.:47:32.

employment, and in the last three years, the number of disabled people

:47:33.:47:36.

in work has increased by nearly 600,000. We also want a welfare

:47:37.:47:45.

system which is a strong safety net for those who need it. I will

:47:46.:47:47.

indeed. To the Minister confirm whether it is still the government's

:47:48.:47:51.

commitment to half the disability employment gap by 2020? I am sure he

:47:52.:47:56.

will avert my honourable friend the Minister for disabled people who

:47:57.:48:00.

find work and she has made the point repeatedly that we are determined to

:48:01.:48:03.

reduce the disability employment gap and are incredibly hard to do it but

:48:04.:48:08.

acknowledge more needs to be done. The welfare cap plays an important

:48:09.:48:11.

role in ensuring that the welfare bill is both sustainable and

:48:12.:48:16.

affordable. We introduced the gap to bring welfare spending under

:48:17.:48:19.

control, and have done so. The system inherited was unaffordable

:48:20.:48:23.

and unsustainable. Under Labour, welfare spending increased by almost

:48:24.:48:28.

60% in real terms. The number of households were not never had ever

:48:29.:48:31.

worked nearly doubled and unemployment went up by 450 7000. As

:48:32.:48:38.

part of continuous commitment to a sustainable welfare system, the

:48:39.:48:42.

Chancellor announced at Autumn Statement the introduction of a new

:48:43.:48:46.

welfare cap. -- under Labour, unemployment went up by 400 7000.

:48:47.:48:51.

The government is firmly committed to returning the public finances

:48:52.:48:54.

back to balance as soon as is practical. Given the uncertainty we

:48:55.:48:57.

are currently facing, it is important to allow for enough

:48:58.:49:00.

applicability to support the economy. That is why we are changing

:49:01.:49:03.

the fiscal framework and introducing a new welfare cap as part of this.

:49:04.:49:10.

The new cap set a target for welfare spending in 21, 22, with eight

:49:11.:49:15.

partly for welfare spending in the years before that. Then new cap is

:49:16.:49:19.

set in line with the latest autumn spending spending forecast. The

:49:20.:49:23.

scope of the new cap remains unchanged. The Office for Budget

:49:24.:49:25.

Responsibility will continue to assess performance against the new

:49:26.:49:31.

cap, and if the cap is assessed as preached, ministers will still need

:49:32.:49:33.

to hold a debate and justify the bridge in this House, or proposed

:49:34.:49:36.

steps to bring spending within the level of the cap. This House will

:49:37.:49:41.

have the opportunity in due course to debate and agree the new fiscal

:49:42.:49:45.

framework, including the new welfare cap, which was put forward by my

:49:46.:49:48.

right honourable friend the Chancellor at Autumn Statement. I

:49:49.:49:55.

commend this motion to the House. The question is, the motion on the

:49:56.:50:01.

welfare cap is on the order paper. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It

:50:02.:50:05.

is always a pleasure to be here when you are in the chair. I take a

:50:06.:50:10.

slightly different view from the Minister, as you probably will have

:50:11.:50:13.

gathered, made Deputy Speaker. I will go on to the details in a. But

:50:14.:50:21.

really, this is, as the Minister was able to acknowledge, the second

:50:22.:50:24.

time, the second year that the government has had to come to the

:50:25.:50:28.

House to explain again why they have breached their own cap. The

:50:29.:50:34.

government has been forced to come to explain their failure, not just

:50:35.:50:39.

around breaching their own social security cap but also in terms of

:50:40.:50:44.

the economy. Just as a quick point of qualification, Madam Deputy

:50:45.:50:48.

Speaker, because I am sure it did not exceed you, -- is give you, this

:50:49.:50:56.

Government has spent, in the years 2010-2015, 100 and ?30 billion more

:50:57.:51:00.

than the previously the government spends between 2000 and 2010. So,

:51:01.:51:11.

this Government has spent more... So, that is absolutely...

:51:12.:51:20.

HUSHED chatter IT IS VERY INTERESTING THAT THEY

:51:21.:51:23.

SHOULD TAKE THAT APPROACH, BUT I WILL GO ON. FIRST OF ALL, IT TURNED

:51:24.:51:28.

OUT REALLY THAT THE LONG-TERM ECONOMIC PLAN WAS NOTHING MORE,

:51:29.:51:34.

really, than a long-term economic failure would have been slightly

:51:35.:51:38.

more apt. I will come onto the record number of jobs that the

:51:39.:51:46.

honourable gentleman is trying... Order, we cannot have interventions

:51:47.:51:50.

from the Flip's bench. Just cannot, even when there is nobody else here!

:51:51.:51:52.

We just cannot! That's fine. I have no problems

:51:53.:52:05.

answering the gentleman who made the comment. More jobs. 80% of the

:52:06.:52:12.

increase in employment is in self-employment and less than

:52:13.:52:20.

half... Those are the facts. Less than half of those in

:52:21.:52:28.

self-employment are earning less than the living wage. Growth is

:52:29.:52:32.

down, borrowing is up again, inflation on the rise, have set

:52:33.:52:37.

targets hopelessly missed and productivity is flat-lining. The ONS

:52:38.:52:43.

has described it as unprecedented. The worst levels of productive itty

:52:44.:52:50.

since the Second World War. Of course, we know that productivity is

:52:51.:52:55.

the driver around wage growth and I'll mention in a little while that

:52:56.:53:00.

we are seeing stagnant wage growth as well as precarious levels of

:53:01.:53:06.

employment, as well. The government has failed every single one of their

:53:07.:53:13.

fiscal targets, so much so that at the Autumn Statement they had to

:53:14.:53:18.

define a new set. They promised an economy based on high wages and

:53:19.:53:23.

lower social security spending where work always pays but in over six

:53:24.:53:27.

years they have done nothing to deliver the high skill, high wage,

:53:28.:53:31.

productive economy that this country desperately needs to compete in the

:53:32.:53:36.

global market. As a result of their own failures, once again the

:53:37.:53:39.

government has breached their own welfare cap, not just this year and

:53:40.:53:48.

last but every year in a four and five year term. They have missed by

:53:49.:53:55.

5 billion, 6 billion, seven billion and 8 billion. A record of the

:53:56.:54:03.

complete and utter failure of their economic strategy. The government

:54:04.:54:11.

has sought to cover up their economic incompetence and take it

:54:12.:54:15.

out on the working poor, sick and disabled, raining down austerity on

:54:16.:54:21.

the most vulnerable in our society. Six wasted years while the poorest

:54:22.:54:27.

have picked up the bill with a full four years of failure yet to come.

:54:28.:54:34.

This is a far cry from the former Chancellor's proclamation in 2014

:54:35.:54:38.

that the welfare cap makes an important moment in the development

:54:39.:54:43.

of the welfare state and ensures that never again can the costs

:54:44.:54:48.

spiral out of control. All the evidence is to the contrary. The

:54:49.:54:55.

government have failed to tackle any of the drivers of Social Security

:54:56.:55:04.

spending. It's incredulous to watch this government as it bounced

:55:05.:55:09.

aimlessly from one broken promise to another. Whatever their favoured

:55:10.:55:17.

slogan, it's clear that gimmicks and grandstanding are all this

:55:18.:55:20.

government is capable of. In the motion we are debating today, they

:55:21.:55:25.

claim that they couldn't meet their own rules due to Social Security

:55:26.:55:32.

support for disabled people and higher than expected inflation. As

:55:33.:55:36.

ever, they are pointing the finger of blame at the most vulnerable

:55:37.:55:40.

rather than apologising for their own economic mismanagement. Let's

:55:41.:55:52.

take the details. The office of budgetary responsibility predicted

:55:53.:55:55.

that the government would spend 120.5 billion in 2020. Of this, the

:55:56.:56:13.

changes in forecast for CPI inflation will increase spending by

:56:14.:56:20.

8p in total. Less than a percentage point of total spending inside the

:56:21.:56:25.

cab. It can hardly be said to be the major driver of the government's

:56:26.:56:30.

failures to keep its promises. The government has lost control of the

:56:31.:56:34.

economy if it ever had it in the first place and fail to tackle the

:56:35.:56:37.

key drivers of Social Security spending, other than pensions.

:56:38.:56:41.

Low-paid work and high housing costs. Furthermore, the government

:56:42.:56:46.

claim that increased disability spending will cause a breach of the

:56:47.:56:52.

cap is just another attempt to point the people the Li finger at sick and

:56:53.:57:00.

disabled people. From the front benches there has been no language

:57:01.:57:06.

around the shirker, scrounge a narrative that we have seen in

:57:07.:57:13.

recent years. That is a very welcome move. I'm not clear whether this

:57:14.:57:21.

extends to press releases from CC HQ and coverage from less responsible

:57:22.:57:26.

sections of the media. We must be careful of our language in this

:57:27.:57:32.

respect. And even if it's not using such derogative tree terms as

:57:33.:57:38.

shirker and scrounger what's implied by incentivising, getting people

:57:39.:57:42.

who'd been found not fit for work, what is the implication there? That

:57:43.:57:46.

they are avoiding work, that's it their choice to avoid work instead

:57:47.:57:53.

of being in productive work. That is offensive to so many people. Instead

:57:54.:57:58.

of blaming everybody else for the mess, they should start taking

:57:59.:58:02.

responsibility. It's not just those on this side of the house making

:58:03.:58:05.

these points. The UN committee on the rise of disabled persons

:58:06.:58:16.

described the approach as a grave and systematic violation of disabled

:58:17.:58:28.

people's rights. We have had comment from members of the government. They

:58:29.:58:35.

all raise concerns about the lack of evidence of many of the government's

:58:36.:58:41.

Social Security policies and their punitive effects. I'm pleased that

:58:42.:58:44.

the minister was able to say that they had taken the view that because

:58:45.:58:48.

of tax credits and the implications that would have on the working poor

:58:49.:58:53.

that they have decided not to proceed with that but what about

:58:54.:58:58.

work allowances around universal credit. These are the same people.

:58:59.:59:03.

The taper rate will make a difference of a couple of hundred

:59:04.:59:07.

pounds per year instead of the net effect of over ?2000 a year. Madame

:59:08.:59:14.

Deputy Speaker, if I may, I wanted to explore some of the real reasons

:59:15.:59:19.

the government has failed to meet its promise. They are not tackle the

:59:20.:59:24.

drivers of Social Security spending. Rather than creating a strong

:59:25.:59:29.

economy of high wages, progression in the labour market, affordable

:59:30.:59:35.

housing and child the government has starred the economy of much-needed

:59:36.:59:38.

investment leading to six wasted years of austerity. This is not just

:59:39.:59:46.

our analysis. In every regard, the evidence speaks for itself. This

:59:47.:59:51.

government are projected to spend more than ?20 billion a year on

:59:52.:59:57.

housing benefit, after pensions, the second largest area of security

:59:58.:00:03.

spending. -- Social Security. Nearly half go straight into the pockets of

:00:04.:00:08.

private landlords. All well, the government figures show that the

:00:09.:00:12.

number of affordable homes being built has slumped to a 24 year low.

:00:13.:00:20.

Indeed, research by the Joseph Rowntree foundation says we need to

:00:21.:00:25.

build 80,000 homes per year to keep the current situation is stable.

:00:26.:00:30.

This year, we have managed just 30,000. Instead of building

:00:31.:00:38.

affordable homes they have forced the sale of a reminder of our

:00:39.:00:42.

socially rented stock worsening house prices and driving up housing

:00:43.:00:46.

benefit spending. This is one of the key reasons that they have breached

:00:47.:00:53.

their own cap. In relation to in work support for people in low paid

:00:54.:00:57.

jobs, onto above this we are seeing there has been a real squeeze in

:00:58.:01:03.

this support. We will be spending over ?15 billion on tax credits in

:01:04.:01:07.

the two years in question in this motion because the government has

:01:08.:01:11.

failed to ensure that wages keep up with the cost of living leaving many

:01:12.:01:14.

working people reliant on top ups to get by. Real wages are set to remain

:01:15.:01:22.

lower in 2021 than they were in 2008. Yet the Tories still turn

:01:23.:01:27.

their back on working people by trying to cut the tax credits

:01:28.:01:31.

available under their failed austerity plans. Likewise, the

:01:32.:01:35.

government has weakened incentives to work by cutting billions from

:01:36.:01:40.

programmes under their austerity plans. Their meagre reduction in the

:01:41.:01:52.

taper rate doesn't touch the annual 2000 cut that I've mentioned. If the

:01:53.:01:58.

Chancellor was serious about reducing Social Security spending he

:01:59.:02:01.

would implement a real living wage culture related on the basis of what

:02:02.:02:05.

people need. This would ensure that people get a fair and proper wage

:02:06.:02:12.

for a working day while reducing expenditure of the state. I'm afraid

:02:13.:02:16.

that our Chancellor isn't capable of making such an obvious decision

:02:17.:02:19.

despite the fact that the living wage commission has shown that the

:02:20.:02:27.

government's National within -- living wage falls far short. He is

:02:28.:02:31.

chopped 10p per hour of the previously increased... The average

:02:32.:02:45.

wage will be ?1000 lower in 2020 then predicted that the last budget.

:02:46.:02:50.

How can we ever read juice of Social Security spending if the government

:02:51.:02:56.

won't act on wages. High wages alone won't clear up the mess. We need to

:02:57.:03:10.

tackle the drivers. Four out of every five low-paid workers are

:03:11.:03:15.

still low paid ten years later. There is no automatic progression to

:03:16.:03:20.

higher pay. Further proof of the deep structural problems we face in

:03:21.:03:25.

the labour market. Finally, we should turn our attention to the

:03:26.:03:29.

disability employment gap which this government said they would half by

:03:30.:03:35.

2020. Grateful for the intervention from my honourable friend earlier.

:03:36.:03:41.

Instead, we seen that at the end of last year it reduced and we are now

:03:42.:03:45.

back up to the level it was just before the general election last

:03:46.:03:49.

year. I have is they plan to force people into work before they are

:03:50.:03:58.

ready to do so. Mounting examples of the government's flawed strategy.

:03:59.:04:03.

Why has the government not acted to prove retention of disabled people

:04:04.:04:10.

in their current jobs which could help people transitioning into

:04:11.:04:18.

employment. That currently stands at 350,000. Keeping disabled people in

:04:19.:04:22.

their jobs would surely be a better strategy to bring down Social

:04:23.:04:26.

Security spending than slashing support for those further away from

:04:27.:04:29.

the labour market. Sadly, this government has been unable to see

:04:30.:04:35.

that far and their record on supporting retention is very poor. I

:04:36.:04:44.

thank the honourable lady for giving way. With the honourable lady agree

:04:45.:04:51.

that the fact that the OBR would be breached in all of its years of

:04:52.:04:57.

forecast. It is not working due to the fact that the government... An

:04:58.:05:07.

example would be concentric where lots of people would be taken off

:05:08.:05:11.

benefits. The numbers are very difficult to forecast. It's an

:05:12.:05:18.

interesting question. I'd have to look at the figures. What I have to

:05:19.:05:26.

show is the high cost of housing is a real issue as is low-paid work.

:05:27.:05:30.

There are a number of factors but these are the key drivers for it. It

:05:31.:05:35.

shows that the government really should have been more careful in

:05:36.:05:38.

their impact assessment when they set out with their policy in the

:05:39.:05:43.

first place. To conclude, this breach of the government's

:05:44.:05:46.

self-imposed welfare cap every year for five years is further proof of

:05:47.:05:50.

the government's that a failure on the economy. They have refused to

:05:51.:05:59.

attack fundamental areas that are driving social service spending.

:06:00.:06:05.

Only Labour has an economic strategy that will bring the cost of Social

:06:06.:06:10.

Security down without freeing the safety net that we all rely on. Now

:06:11.:06:15.

is the time to invest in the housing we need, offer a decent wage for a

:06:16.:06:20.

working day and support people to find a job, keep a job and progress

:06:21.:06:26.

in their chosen work. We will transform our Social Security system

:06:27.:06:31.

to ensure that, like the NHS, it is therefore all others in our time of

:06:32.:06:38.

need. Part of our plan to provide a stronger, fair settlement for all in

:06:39.:06:39.

our country. It is a pleasure to contribute in

:06:40.:06:50.

this very important debate. I wish to burst of all pay tribute to the

:06:51.:06:55.

Minister, who showed that she had a genuinely deep understanding issues.

:06:56.:07:00.

She already has a record of being very willing to engage with

:07:01.:07:04.

particularly the charitable groups with their huge wealth of

:07:05.:07:07.

experience, which we as a government do well to listen to to help shape

:07:08.:07:12.

future policies. This is an important debate because it does

:07:13.:07:16.

focus our minds. It has set a clear marker and we have to justify if we

:07:17.:07:21.

deviate from the original plans. It was interesting listening to that

:07:22.:07:25.

last speech. On one hand, the Shadow minister was saying the government

:07:26.:07:29.

has spent something like 100 more, but then criticised seeing we were

:07:30.:07:32.

not spending sufficient money in every area. -- 100 more. It is right

:07:33.:07:39.

to focus our minds, because of the soul and the last Labour government,

:07:40.:07:43.

were welfare was left to drift, were the number of workless households

:07:44.:07:47.

doubled, an extra half a million people abandoned to an employment,

:07:48.:07:51.

this is real people who were in desperate need for the right

:07:52.:07:55.

support. Through our strong economic growth, and I am not sure what the

:07:56.:07:59.

shadow minister was referring to, because it is still the strongest of

:08:00.:08:02.

any major developed economy, we have seen record employment. That is not

:08:03.:08:06.

just the south east, that is in every single region of the country.

:08:07.:08:10.

In my own constituency, because I know you're all desperate to know,

:08:11.:08:15.

it is 8100 more people in work since the general election. Even greater

:08:16.:08:18.

than the number of people who go to the County ground to watch the

:08:19.:08:29.

mighty Swindon town, and we have an 11 year low in terms of an

:08:30.:08:32.

apartment. We have introduced the National Living Wage, directly

:08:33.:08:33.

benefiting 2.75 million of our lowest earners. The income tax

:08:34.:08:35.

threshold rises year-on-year, taking 2.3 million people out of paying any

:08:36.:08:38.

income tax at all. And as wages have grown on average about 2% this year,

:08:39.:08:44.

we are seeing the the lowest earners' wages rise by an average of

:08:45.:08:48.

6%, in addition to the welcome extension of free childcare,

:08:49.:08:51.

creating more opportunities for people to work. With the recent

:08:52.:08:55.

green paper announcement, there is a real opportunity to build on the

:08:56.:08:58.

progress that has been made. Particularly if we look at the 500

:08:59.:09:02.

more disabled people in work in the last two years. -- you more than

:09:03.:09:08.

half a million people. 48% of people are expected to be in work, disabled

:09:09.:09:13.

people, up from 40% when we came to office. We still have work to go but

:09:14.:09:17.

if we taught the charitable groups who work in this area, they are

:09:18.:09:20.

encouraged that we are going in the right direction. The key thing here

:09:21.:09:25.

is to make sure we deliver a tailored individual support, because

:09:26.:09:28.

for those still looking for work, there are challenges. It is not as

:09:29.:09:32.

simple as going to just learn to have your CV and training for your

:09:33.:09:37.

interviewing. We are right to look at delivering more tailored support

:09:38.:09:39.

to make further progress in delivering more people into work and

:09:40.:09:44.

thus reducing the welfare spending. We also are right to identify that

:09:45.:09:48.

we have to do joined up work with health, because a lot of those

:09:49.:09:51.

people now looking for work will also have to navigate health

:09:52.:09:54.

challenges, and they need that support and the support at the

:09:55.:09:58.

beginning. Bravely, we are introducing the small employer

:09:59.:10:00.

offered to proactively engage with employers to provide opportunities

:10:01.:10:05.

for those people playing by the rules, working with the support on

:10:06.:10:09.

offer, they need that opportunity at the end of the process to actually

:10:10.:10:12.

go into work. The announcement on disability apprentices, the increase

:10:13.:10:15.

in funding to access to work and universal credit, which has

:10:16.:10:21.

universal support across all sides, reinforces the point that work

:10:22.:10:25.

should always pay and it recognises a welfare system that is fair to

:10:26.:10:28.

those that receive it and to those who pay for it. Crucially removing

:10:29.:10:33.

the 16 hour cliff edge will, providing on average 13% more time

:10:34.:10:37.

for the claimant to look, and most importantly for me, for the first

:10:38.:10:41.

time ever, a claimant has a named contact who can help them navigate

:10:42.:10:45.

not just looking for work but dealing with all the different forms

:10:46.:10:48.

of benefit, the extra support they will meet and crucially, when they

:10:49.:10:51.

go into work, will continue to provide support. Until now, we as is

:10:52.:10:56.

a society would help people get into work, wish them all the best and

:10:57.:11:00.

that would be a lot on that we would have with them unless they came back

:11:01.:11:04.

looking for work again. Whereas now, rightly, we are recognising that

:11:05.:11:07.

those people taking often the first step into work may need support. It

:11:08.:11:11.

could be that those people lack confidence, and if they had been

:11:12.:11:14.

attending work regularly and engaging in the right that named

:11:15.:11:19.

coach can help them look to increase their hours, increased their

:11:20.:11:22.

responsibility and earn more money in work. One of the things that I

:11:23.:11:28.

would like to see in my constituency, and across the whole

:11:29.:11:33.

of the UK, would be incentives for small and medium businesses who view

:11:34.:11:37.

it's difficult to perhaps encourage disabled people to gain employment.

:11:38.:11:41.

Does he feel that perhaps maybe what we have not seen so far is that

:11:42.:11:44.

encouragement for small and medium businesses to do just that?

:11:45.:11:49.

That is a really important point. What we do see a large employers,

:11:50.:11:55.

with the HR teams, their personnel teams, highly educated and well

:11:56.:11:58.

resourced, are very good at making those changes, often just small

:11:59.:12:03.

changes, to take full advantage of those disabled people who are

:12:04.:12:07.

looking to work you have got great skills, great abilities, that can

:12:08.:12:10.

fill the skills gap that there. But often those small and medium-sized

:12:11.:12:13.

businesses do not have that confidence and the skills, or are

:12:14.:12:16.

not even aware of that talent that is available. That is widely small

:12:17.:12:20.

employer pilot was so important, because that is literally going

:12:21.:12:24.

around industrial parks, business parks, the shops, and literally

:12:25.:12:31.

seeing where are your are your skills gaps and we will go and match

:12:32.:12:34.

them to those people looking for work. We have had some really

:12:35.:12:36.

encouraging results from those pilots. I did an event in my own

:12:37.:12:40.

constituency, and managed to blues about 22 people because they got

:12:41.:12:43.

small and medium-sized employers who had never thought about this too

:12:44.:12:45.

actually come forward and say where their skills gaps where. The final

:12:46.:12:52.

area and wanted to touch on... Yes. He has made the point, rightly, that

:12:53.:12:56.

the rate of employment amongst disabled people has risen, but of

:12:57.:13:00.

course the overall employment rate has risen as well. The disability

:13:01.:13:05.

employment gap has not been reduced. Why does he think there has not been

:13:06.:13:08.

any progress on that particular issue? I know that the honourable

:13:09.:13:13.

member has been very diligent on this and is determined to be

:13:14.:13:16.

proactive in supporting disabled people having that opportunity, and

:13:17.:13:19.

the reality is because the growing economy is benefiting everyone.

:13:20.:13:25.

Perversely, if we had a recession, and the last time we had one, we saw

:13:26.:13:30.

the disability gap shrinks because actually the non-disabled people

:13:31.:13:32.

were coming out for work at a quicker rate than the disabled

:13:33.:13:37.

people. We would not celebrate that, the closing of the gap of disabled

:13:38.:13:41.

people out of work. Greater Manchester I will now have to decide

:13:42.:13:44.

what is the way to go. I personally, for what it is worth, think the only

:13:45.:13:48.

thing that matters is that more disabled people, as quickly as

:13:49.:13:51.

possible, year-on-year, should have an opportunity for work. And what we

:13:52.:13:56.

should be looking at is for example, when we came to office and we said

:13:57.:13:59.

that the Prime Minister, the temporary minister, said he wished

:14:00.:14:04.

to half to be disability and climate gap, we should be trying to get

:14:05.:14:07.

there as quickly as possible, that target, looking at it annually and

:14:08.:14:11.

I'm not that something that they stakeholders working on. That we

:14:12.:14:14.

needed to demonstrate annually that we were making real, tangible

:14:15.:14:20.

progress. So far, 500 more disabled people in work in the last three

:14:21.:14:23.

years is is good but there is still much more that needs to be done. --

:14:24.:14:28.

more than half a million more disabled people. We are now spending

:14:29.:14:31.

more than ?3 billion more per year. That is a welcome figure. It

:14:32.:14:35.

recognises the fact that under the old system of DLA only 16.5% of

:14:36.:14:42.

women accessed the higher grade of benefit to stop under the new

:14:43.:14:46.

system, it is about 22. The system better recognises particularly

:14:47.:14:50.

hidden impairments, in particular mental health. And it is right that

:14:51.:14:54.

we are getting the support to the most vulnerable people in society as

:14:55.:14:58.

quickly as we can. But I do have an ask and that is that everybody in

:14:59.:15:03.

Parliament recognises we have a growing challenge with mental health

:15:04.:15:06.

conditions in this country. Whether that is people in work, people

:15:07.:15:10.

trying to get into work, people in their everyday lives. Something like

:15:11.:15:13.

one in four people at some point will have a mental health condition.

:15:14.:15:17.

And actually, our government, and I suspect whoever was the government,

:15:18.:15:21.

would look to commit additional funding for supporting people with

:15:22.:15:24.

mental health conditions. One of the challenges of nobody has quite

:15:25.:15:27.

answered what is the best way to direct that support to provide it.

:15:28.:15:31.

There is lots of different pilots going on but I think we have a real

:15:32.:15:35.

opportunity, because the one area where we are identifying people with

:15:36.:15:40.

mental health conditions is through the net benefit. But we do not do

:15:41.:15:45.

anything with. We do not send post those people who have gone through

:15:46.:15:47.

the system and have been identified with a mental health system to the

:15:48.:15:51.

additional support the NHS can offer, local charities, groups etc.

:15:52.:15:56.

I am not looking to try to get people off these benefits, I am

:15:57.:16:01.

trying to... Yes I thank him for giving way, I am sorry I came in

:16:02.:16:05.

late. I missed the earlier part of the speech. People with mental

:16:06.:16:10.

health disabilities, it is not so easy for them to get benefits, to be

:16:11.:16:14.

quite frank, because I have got a number of cases now where people

:16:15.:16:17.

with mental health, and disabilities, have had their

:16:18.:16:23.

benefits. Without any notice. -- have had their benefits stopped

:16:24.:16:26.

without any notice. The overall picture from DLA where our round

:16:27.:16:33.

about 20% would access the benefit, it is somewhere in the region of 80%

:16:34.:16:37.

under this new system. There is still work to be done and we have

:16:38.:16:42.

fantastic organisations like Mind, with proactive suggestions about how

:16:43.:16:46.

we can make improvements, but were we have identified people, we should

:16:47.:16:48.

then be same posting them to the additional support that is

:16:49.:16:51.

available. We all know, through on his work, that often people who have

:16:52.:16:56.

experienced mental health conditions did not know where to turn. There is

:16:57.:16:59.

not a good book that says this is where you should go. And if we have

:17:00.:17:03.

identified somebody with a mental condition, I think we have a duty to

:17:04.:17:09.

do our very best to work with those organisations to signpost them for

:17:10.:17:11.

any help, for that they once again can share the same opportunities

:17:12.:17:15.

that all of us take for granted. This is an important debate. It is

:17:16.:17:18.

right that we are increasing spending for the most vulnerable

:17:19.:17:21.

people in society, rightly we are helping give people the opportunity

:17:22.:17:25.

to go into work. The statistics showing that these are real people

:17:26.:17:28.

who are benefiting from our strong economic growth and I would urge the

:17:29.:17:31.

government to keep pressing forward with a positive action that we are

:17:32.:17:42.

taking. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow

:17:43.:17:45.

the honourable member. He has been a loyal supporter of the government

:17:46.:17:47.

from the backbenches over the last few months and it sounds very much

:17:48.:17:50.

like it is a job application that he is putting into the pro Minister, as

:17:51.:17:53.

much of anything else! Well, you never know! -- the Prime Minister.

:17:54.:17:59.

Another page of the CAP called into question what the point of it was in

:18:00.:18:04.

the first place. -- a breach of the gap. And the means to reduce welfare

:18:05.:18:08.

spending, it continues to be inflexible and unworkable, and when

:18:09.:18:10.

we look at the motion which is before us this evening, and the

:18:11.:18:14.

words from the Minister at the dispatch box, we have a mea culpa,

:18:15.:18:18.

or were admitting that this is effectively gone for the next four

:18:19.:18:22.

years. We will not have the situation were the Minister will

:18:23.:18:25.

have to continue to come back to the dispatch box and the Apple not

:18:26.:18:27.

working, because we have now given them a blank cheque for the next

:18:28.:18:30.

three or four years, and I guess we should welcome. But we should really

:18:31.:18:35.

be talking about the fundamentals, the economic circumstances that are

:18:36.:18:38.

getting nothing into this place in the first case. What we really need

:18:39.:18:42.

to have not the sound used to have of long-term economic plan, but a

:18:43.:18:46.

real plan to make sure that we are boosting investment and productivity

:18:47.:18:51.

in this this country. The challenge and delivering that has just got

:18:52.:18:53.

that little bit harder, as a consequence of Brexit. That is

:18:54.:18:56.

really why I suspect we are having the debate today. It was always

:18:57.:19:02.

going to be about circumstances, and Brexit, the ball on the value of the

:19:03.:19:04.

pound, the declining confidence in future growth has had its impact on

:19:05.:19:08.

bringing the government to the dispatch box in this display that we

:19:09.:19:11.

have seen this evening. Madame Deputy Speaker, the Chancellor

:19:12.:19:19.

missed his opportunity and social security to give the reform that he

:19:20.:19:22.

claims to be just about managing families. We should have focused on

:19:23.:19:26.

addressing the underlying root causes of poverty by addressing

:19:27.:19:29.

unemployment and Employment Support Allowance we acknowledge the

:19:30.:19:32.

government have had to abandon its targets on the wealth gap and the

:19:33.:19:38.

resources are welcome, having used the capital as a source for cuts.

:19:39.:19:44.

Madame Deputy Speaker, the CAP is a reprehensible and regressive measure

:19:45.:19:46.

that places the burden on the UK Government's field economic strategy

:19:47.:19:52.

on the shoulders of the most disadvantaged in society. We should

:19:53.:19:55.

remind ourselves that the welfare cap was a flagship for the

:19:56.:19:58.

government in the last parliament. It ended up as a tool to fund more

:19:59.:20:04.

cuts that the Treasury has used and abused to squeeze resources from the

:20:05.:20:07.

Department for Work and Pensions. Well, the new Chancellor again will

:20:08.:20:12.

have to breach the target set before him. We ask him to acknowledge that

:20:13.:20:15.

the sheer fact that this Government cannot even stick to its own targets

:20:16.:20:19.

proves the inflexibility of the welfare cap is unworkable and the

:20:20.:20:23.

fact that we have reached it again and again illustrates not the desire

:20:24.:20:29.

to give the guidance to forego the cap for the next four years but to

:20:30.:20:32.

abandon the captaincy policy for good. An arbitrate cap these times

:20:33.:20:37.

of uncertainty is neither useful or adequate, as the government's

:20:38.:20:41.

previews bridges have shown. The best way to reduce and manage

:20:42.:20:45.

welfare spending is to restore the economy to a healthy state, not to

:20:46.:20:49.

hit the most disadvantaged with the bill. The cap will not address the

:20:50.:20:54.

underlying structural problems that are keeping people reliant on Social

:20:55.:20:59.

Security, including low pay and why later, Labour market of and. --

:21:00.:21:06.

wider labour market an apology. The fact that people cannot afford to be

:21:07.:21:10.

rent because of high housing costs should prompt the government to

:21:11.:21:15.

understand that the lives of welfare is more than a reliance. The only

:21:16.:21:19.

way we are going to address the housing costs is by making sure we

:21:20.:21:24.

can address the issue of supply into the housing market. Something the

:21:25.:21:26.

government has singularly failed to do. The IFS said on the welfare cap

:21:27.:21:33.

target the Conservative government already has the unimpressive record

:21:34.:21:39.

of meeting zero to three of its fiscal targets. The government's new

:21:40.:21:45.

Lennon swell the cap will disproportionally target the

:21:46.:21:48.

benefits claimed by the least well off, was played in 2014. The Green

:21:49.:21:53.

budget from 2016, IFS, said in practice the welfare cap has proved

:21:54.:21:57.

much less binding. Spending is already forecast to exceed the cap

:21:58.:22:01.

for each of the next three fiscal years. In other words, even though

:22:02.:22:06.

the welfare cap has only been in operation for less than two years,

:22:07.:22:11.

since March 2014, it has already been broken consistently by the

:22:12.:22:14.

Chancellor. It is therefore not clear whether it remains a real

:22:15.:22:17.

constraint on the government's actions. The IFS we right then and

:22:18.:22:23.

are today. What is the point of the cap is the principle when it is

:22:24.:22:29.

bridged time and time again? It is, in effect, no constraint on what the

:22:30.:22:32.

government are doing, or what they should be doing. It is unworkable,

:22:33.:22:37.

it is meaningless. It was simply assault to show government was was

:22:38.:22:42.

taking tough, talking tough yet paying more regard to changing

:22:43.:22:46.

circumstances. It is daft intellectually, morally and

:22:47.:22:46.

ethically. It is a drop in the ocean with

:22:47.:23:03.

millions of cuts to come over the years. On a zone, it will not

:23:04.:23:06.

mitigate these cuts or have they have been found. Instead, the

:23:07.:23:11.

Government should reverse the cuts to the work allowance in full so

:23:12.:23:14.

that working parents in low-paid jobs shouldn't lose out. The rate at

:23:15.:23:23.

which supporters were redrawn from low-income households for low-income

:23:24.:23:35.

credits were less... The SNP have consistently argued against the

:23:36.:23:41.

productions and frequently stopped it. It is going to come back to bite

:23:42.:23:49.

next April. Hitting the just about managing families on middle incomes.

:23:50.:23:55.

The maximum gains from this 2% reduction is only around ?500. This

:23:56.:24:03.

falls short of what low and middle income families need to manage. And

:24:04.:24:09.

the maximum losses are around ?2800. That is the reality of what is

:24:10.:24:16.

happening under this Government. People of the Revolution

:24:17.:24:18.

foundational said when it comes to managing just about managing

:24:19.:24:20.

people's family, all roads lead to people's family, all roads lead

:24:21.:24:22.

universal credit. The boost universal credit. The boost

:24:23.:24:29.

effective way to reduce it is... A modest reduction will instead leave

:24:30.:24:32.

a bitter speech -- sweet taste. Now the V welfare cat

:24:33.:24:57.

has gone, why doesn't the Government come and reassess these challenges,

:24:58.:25:04.

why don't they reassess? The losses of families on universal credit and

:25:05.:25:13.

let's not forget that... It is clear that the Tories have not yet

:25:14.:25:18.

abandoned the austerity. For all their rhetoric in there just about

:25:19.:25:21.

managing is, they are still not managing. We welcome the Rock will

:25:22.:25:31.

be no more spending cuts, but the cuts that they are planning to do,

:25:32.:25:36.

mean that there will be much to do in this Parliament. In terms of the

:25:37.:25:42.

Scottish parliament and Social Security committee, specialist at

:25:43.:25:48.

Sheffield Hallam University show that by 2021, Scotland can expect to

:25:49.:25:56.

use just over 1 million a dear. -- 1 billion. -- expect to lose. It will

:25:57.:26:06.

be delivered by this west Minster Government. Merry Christmas.

:26:07.:26:15.

Sheffield Hallam also say that the reforms are all ready costing

:26:16.:26:19.

claimants in Scotland just over 1.1 billion a year. This brings that

:26:20.:26:25.

accumulative loss expected of up to more than 2 billion a year. Deputy

:26:26.:26:32.

Speaker, we will not grow the economy by taking cash out of the

:26:33.:26:36.

pockets of the poorest. We will fix the economy. We will fix the debt

:26:37.:26:40.

and deficit by putting in place measures that will grow the economy.

:26:41.:26:44.

This obsession with punishing the poor must stop. The UK Government is

:26:45.:26:56.

saving a whopping 30 million in 2017 and 2018 rising to 450 million in

:26:57.:27:04.

2020, 20 one. This is from the cuts of universal credit. These figures

:27:05.:27:12.

updated on March 20 15. Already, we have seen Tory backbenchers rise

:27:13.:27:17.

again and again and vote with us against these policies. It is high

:27:18.:27:22.

time the Government listened to its own members even if it will not

:27:23.:27:27.

listen to us on this side of the house. An analysis by the Institute

:27:28.:27:35.

of policy research said it would cost a good deal of money. Why will

:27:36.:27:41.

the Government not to what would affect people? The UK Government are

:27:42.:27:49.

still dragging their feet with a lack of ambition to really tackle

:27:50.:27:54.

low pay. The UK Government National Government living wage. Madam Deputy

:27:55.:28:03.

is bigger, the real living wage is calculate it against the basic cost

:28:04.:28:11.

of living and takes into account basic things to allow a minimum

:28:12.:28:18.

standard. Why is it not recommended that they should be given that?

:28:19.:28:27.

Fundamentally this challenges the value of an organisation providing

:28:28.:28:33.

independent advice of levels of wage across the UK. Will they begin to

:28:34.:28:40.

accept that advice? The Scottish National Party supports payment and

:28:41.:28:42.

promotion of the real living wage. In Scotland, the SNP continues to

:28:43.:28:49.

set the bar on paperwork. The First Minister welcomed the new living

:28:50.:28:56.

wage which will benefit thousands of staff in Scotland and urge more

:28:57.:29:02.

businesses in Scotland to sign up to the living wage. The rise of 20p

:29:03.:29:11.

will impact many workers. I conclude by reiterating the best way to

:29:12.:29:15.

reduce and manage welfare spending is to restore the economy to a

:29:16.:29:20.

healthy state, not to hit the most disadvantaged with the bell.

:29:21.:29:24.

Austerity is a choice, not a necessity. This failed accession has

:29:25.:29:33.

failed. It is time for a strategy that focuses on fair and clear wage.

:29:34.:29:42.

Westminster delivering ongoing austerity, we are all paying the

:29:43.:29:47.

price for this. Question is the motion on the welfare cap as on the

:29:48.:29:51.

order paper. As many of that opinion say I. The aye have it. I will put

:29:52.:30:08.

motions through 45 and six together. Minister to move. The question is as

:30:09.:30:17.

on the order paper. As many on the opinion say aye. On the contrary say

:30:18.:30:24.

no. The aye have it, the aye have it. We now to delete Mac come to

:30:25.:30:30.

issue number seven. Minister to move. I beg to move. The question is

:30:31.:30:33.

on question of seven. As many of on question of seven. As many of

:30:34.:30:37.

that opinion say aye. On the contrary know. No.

:30:38.:31:56.

Order! The question is motion number seven as on the order paper. Those

:31:57.:32:10.

of that opinion say aye. Aye. On the contrary no.

:32:11.:38:44.

The ayes to the right, 252. The noes to the left, 103. Of those members

:38:45.:43:10.

representing constituencies in England, the ayes to the right, 239.

:43:11.:43:14.

The noes to the left, 86. The ayes to the right, 252. The noes

:43:15.:43:34.

to the left, 103. For those members representing constituencies in

:43:35.:43:38.

England, the ayes to the right, 239. The noes to the left, 86. On both

:43:39.:43:47.

counts, the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Unlock! We now come to

:43:48.:43:59.

motion number nine. Relating to the culture, media and sport committee.

:44:00.:44:10.

Mr Bill Wiggins. I beg to move. I welcome to number eight shortly. We

:44:11.:44:15.

will do number nine. Mr Wiggin has moved, number nine. The question is

:44:16.:44:19.

as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to

:44:20.:44:25.

the contrary, "No." The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:44:26.:44:32.

Now we come to motion number eight on multinational financial framework

:44:33.:44:38.

mid-term review and revision. I beg to move. The question is as on the

:44:39.:44:41.

order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary,

:44:42.:44:46.

"No." The ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:44:47.:44:57.

Presentation of public petitions, Mr Peter Bone. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:44:58.:45:00.

Speaker. This is a grassroots petition, it just shows that in this

:45:01.:45:07.

day of multimedia and everything, you can actually campaign at a local

:45:08.:45:12.

level, and it is this edition that has been organised by Ken Chapman,

:45:13.:45:15.

Dennis Randall and Julia Murphy. It is about an alteration to a road

:45:16.:45:21.

which I'm sure the highways authority but was a very good idea

:45:22.:45:24.

but it dramatically affects the people of Ashton Grove, and the

:45:25.:45:28.

petition is signed by virtually everyone there and they are very

:45:29.:45:32.

concerned at the effect of this alteration to the road and what it

:45:33.:45:36.

will have on the neighbourhood. The petition reads, to the honourable

:45:37.:45:43.

Commons of the United Kingdom and Parliament assembled, the humble

:45:44.:45:47.

petitions of the residents of Ashton growth Northants shows that the

:45:48.:45:50.

petitioners believe the development of the APhi 09 should not go ahead

:45:51.:45:56.

due to the reduction in safety, the increase to noise and air pollution

:45:57.:46:01.

and the privacy concerns that raising the road and removing the

:46:02.:46:05.

trees would cause to the residents of Ashton growth. Wherefore your

:46:06.:46:09.

petitioners pray that you honourable House urges the Department for

:46:10.:46:12.

Transport to encourage Northants County Council to reassess their

:46:13.:46:17.

plans were the A509 and amend them in consultation with local

:46:18.:46:22.

residents. Your petitioners as duty-bound will ever pray, etc.

:46:23.:46:41.

Petition, A509 development, Ashton growth. I beg to move that this has

:46:42.:46:48.

meant an hour journey. The question is that this House do now adjourned.

:46:49.:46:53.

Thank you. I am grateful that the House has been given this

:46:54.:46:58.

opportunity tonight to consider the limitation of European Union data

:46:59.:47:02.

protection laws and look for to a robust and constructive response

:47:03.:47:04.

from the Minister. Let me start by stating the obvious. The way we

:47:05.:47:10.

send, receive, collect, analyse news -- and use data has been transformed

:47:11.:47:14.

the last few decades. That transformation is only going to

:47:15.:47:19.

become more marked as time goes on. It is truly amazing that around 90%

:47:20.:47:23.

of global data that exists today was created in just the last two years.

:47:24.:47:28.

That amount is predicted to grow year-on-year for the next decade. I

:47:29.:47:32.

was staggered to learn that Transport For London recorded 4.5

:47:33.:47:38.

million pieces of information about Foss movement every single day. A

:47:39.:47:44.

far cry from the old days. Significant opportunities presented

:47:45.:47:49.

by this growth of big data, a term which refers to the growth of large,

:47:50.:47:55.

context data that can be analysed to provide valuable new insights and

:47:56.:48:00.

personalised services. As our lives become increasingly digitised, the

:48:01.:48:04.

growth of big data means equally big implications for privacy, and

:48:05.:48:09.

consequently very big questions on policymakers regarding how we should

:48:10.:48:12.

most appropriately regulated this digital revolution to protect the

:48:13.:48:15.

rights of the individual. Without stifling the flexibility to

:48:16.:48:19.

innovate. Of course, the vote to leave the EU has created a much more

:48:20.:48:24.

uncertain context within which we are approaching this complex issue,

:48:25.:48:30.

with the UK's data protection rules closely intertwined with European

:48:31.:48:34.

Union law. As I will argue, it is vital for the UK to have a strong

:48:35.:48:38.

data protection system which is in line with European Union standards.

:48:39.:48:44.

We need to be part of a strong, open digital come across Europe which

:48:45.:48:47.

will be critical if we are to remain globally competitive. As Tech UK has

:48:48.:48:53.

pointed out, and I thank them for their assistance, as the leading

:48:54.:48:58.

digital economy in Europe, the UK has the most to gain and conversely

:48:59.:49:04.

the most to lose than the European data collection -- data protection

:49:05.:49:06.

landscape. Whatever our future relationship with Europe,

:49:07.:49:09.

information will have to flow freely if we want to remain part of the

:49:10.:49:15.

growing global digital economy. I shall be cheering the Parliamentary

:49:16.:49:21.

group on data analytics, which is looking at issues surrounding growth

:49:22.:49:26.

of big data. Let us move to some history. The basis of EU data

:49:27.:49:32.

protection law is the 1995 data protection directive, which was

:49:33.:49:36.

fermented into UK law by the Data Protection Act of 1998. -- which was

:49:37.:49:42.

fermented. But EU member states have permitted the most from it,

:49:43.:49:45.

resulting in divergences and enforcement. Of course, the world

:49:46.:49:49.

has also changed dramatically over that time. January 2012, the EU

:49:50.:49:55.

commission proposed a conference of reform on data protection rules in

:49:56.:50:00.

the European Union. After more than four years of deliberation, the

:50:01.:50:03.

general data protection regulation was agreed by the European

:50:04.:50:08.

Parliament in April and is 16. The general data protection aims to

:50:09.:50:12.

strengthen consumer protection and enhance trust and confidence in how

:50:13.:50:17.

personal data is used and managed, giving citizens more control over

:50:18.:50:21.

their own private information. It will replace the existing

:50:22.:50:24.

legislation that has been in place since the mid-19 90s, which in the

:50:25.:50:28.

UK means superseding the Data Protection Act of 1998. The new

:50:29.:50:36.

regulation entered into force on the 24th of May 2016 and has a

:50:37.:50:40.

regulation would directly apply to all European Union member states.

:50:41.:50:47.

There will be new -- nanny for new national legislation from 2018. EU

:50:48.:50:54.

member states are required to transpose it into the national law

:50:55.:50:59.

by May 2018. The European Commission has called it an essential step to

:51:00.:51:06.

strengthen rights in the digital age, facilitate businesses by simple

:51:07.:51:08.

flying rules for companies in the digital single market. The directive

:51:09.:51:15.

for the police and criminal justice sector protects the fundamental

:51:16.:51:17.

rights of citizens to data protection whenever more personal

:51:18.:51:21.

data is used by law enforcement agencies and will especially protect

:51:22.:51:24.

the personal data of victims, witnesses and suspects of crying.

:51:25.:51:29.

Data protection is also underpinned by the European Union union's

:51:30.:51:34.

Charter of fundamental rights. The right to protection of personal data

:51:35.:51:39.

is explicitly recognised by Article eight, guaranteeing the right to

:51:40.:51:42.

respect the private and family life, home and correspondence. Data

:51:43.:51:46.

protection is a highly developed area of European Union law. Some

:51:47.:51:52.

describe the freeze movement of data as a fifth freedom. -- the free

:51:53.:51:57.

movement. What could Brexit me for data protection in the UK? -- mean.

:51:58.:52:04.

It will still apply to the UK from May 20 18. Minister does say is a

:52:05.:52:11.

dishonour number of occasions and I'm confident the minister will do

:52:12.:52:14.

this again today. The Right Honourable member for Staffordshire

:52:15.:52:18.

Moorlands is that we will be members of big European Union in 2018 and it

:52:19.:52:24.

would be expected and normal about to be part of it then. While

:52:25.:52:31.

maintaining high levels of protection for members of the

:52:32.:52:34.

public. The Minister responding tonight has said the Data Protection

:52:35.:52:39.

Act provides a very strong safeguards and are set to get

:52:40.:52:42.

stronger. The Government says you will opt in to the data protection

:52:43.:52:48.

measures which will be stronger than the Data Protection Act. It is clear

:52:49.:52:53.

the Government plans the GDP are due apply in the UK from May 2018

:52:54.:52:57.

presumably because as the Right Honourable member from Stassen

:52:58.:53:02.

Wallen said in 2008 in we will still be a member of the European Union.

:53:03.:53:06.

What about one we leave? Little has been said about what will be done

:53:07.:53:11.

with data protection after that point. The Minister has said there

:53:12.:53:17.

may be changes of the regulatory landscape after the UK exits the

:53:18.:53:22.

European Union. This point is particularly important because it...

:53:23.:53:31.

When the UK leaves the EU, our main data protection law will seemingly

:53:32.:53:35.

be the Data Protection Act 1998 which is now not fit for purpose.

:53:36.:53:42.

The bill Annie Powers act were introduced with the ball mention of

:53:43.:53:45.

how they would appear to the GDP are. Unless the GDP up with

:53:46.:53:50.

transposed international legislation, our deck delete Mac

:53:51.:53:55.

data protection Acts will be the outdated one. This matters because

:53:56.:54:01.

people will be vulnerable. Nine out of ten large organisations have had

:54:02.:54:12.

data breaches, but they are under no obligation to report it. A further

:54:13.:54:19.

very real? Hangs over the future of the GDP are any count of the Digital

:54:20.:54:31.

economy Bill. Big brother watch has said... Indeed the GDPR refers to

:54:32.:54:39.

the Data Protection Act 1998. Both pieces of legislation are now out of

:54:40.:54:44.

date. The information Commissioner pointed out that when the GDPR comes

:54:45.:54:51.

into effect in the UK, the Government will have to implement

:54:52.:54:58.

this. There will be consideration of the impact on all aspects of the

:54:59.:55:07.

bill include dating Sheryl. Also the GDPR -- data protection Bill. We do

:55:08.:55:13.

not know what data protection regime will be in place when the Data

:55:14.:55:15.

Protection Act becomes law. We fail to see how in this context that the

:55:16.:55:20.

Government with the citizens. It Government with the citizens.

:55:21.:55:23.

seems illogical that this bill seems illogical that this bill

:55:24.:55:24.

should be introduced with no should be introduced with no

:55:25.:55:30.

reference to GDPR winner will have two adhere to GDPR within two

:55:31.:55:35.

It will be updated. If we want to It will be updated. If we want to

:55:36.:55:40.

remain a major player on the digital stage, we have two keep an eye on

:55:41.:55:46.

what is happening in Europe. International data flows are

:55:47.:55:51.

essential to UK business operations across the sectors. Half of all

:55:52.:55:57.

services and trade depend on access of cross-border data flows. There

:55:58.:56:02.

was a risk that after Brexit the UK may be treated as a third country on

:56:03.:56:07.

data protection issues. That is because the investigatory Powers act

:56:08.:56:12.

adopted his currently competent, but that will not be the case when we're

:56:13.:56:15.

out of the European Union. We see out of the European Union. We see

:56:16.:56:21.

our powers being judged against the GDPR. Will be a third country and we

:56:22.:56:30.

will have to come to a adequacy decision between us and the European

:56:31.:56:33.

union to make sure that it flows through need to wean us and the

:56:34.:56:40.

European Union states. In order to get a position, the European Union

:56:41.:56:44.

must be satisfied that the third country offers an equivalent level

:56:45.:56:47.

of data protection. The number of commentators fear that the recent

:56:48.:56:51.

investigatory power act means that it will take some convincing. That

:56:52.:56:58.

can take years to resolve leaving protections for UK citizens in the

:56:59.:57:03.

meantime week, as well as hugely disadvantaged in the crucial tech

:57:04.:57:07.

sector, one of our great success stories. How easy it would be for

:57:08.:57:11.

our competitors in mainland Europe to then say to people, move here

:57:12.:57:16.

where you can be inside the system. Do not stay outside in the cold.

:57:17.:57:22.

Ministers should be working to ensure our data protection rules are

:57:23.:57:27.

strong enough to secure an EU, UK adequacy decision which would be

:57:28.:57:31.

viable to underpin trade rights across the Digital economy. That is

:57:32.:57:35.

what we need. As of the rest of the Bretton negotiations, we are on the

:57:36.:57:40.

dark unless the Minister can shed some light. Will the

:57:41.:57:41.

confirm that the Government will confirm that the Government will

:57:42.:57:46.

prioritise Aaron seeing data flows post date -- post Brexit. Also with

:57:47.:58:00.

so much operating across borders, it is crucial to citizens, businesses,

:58:01.:58:07.

so can the Minister also confirmed that the Government is seeking to

:58:08.:58:13.

have a UK adequacy decision. It is worth noting in passing the last

:58:14.:58:17.

adequacy decision with New Zealand took more than three years to

:58:18.:58:25.

negotiate. Data is the currency of additional -- Digital economy. We

:58:26.:58:29.

must not shy away from it. The data landscape is shifting and we must

:58:30.:58:36.

keep pace to tap into the potential offered by the Internet. If we want

:58:37.:58:41.

the UK to remain at the forefront of the digital revolution, ... The

:58:42.:58:48.

information Commissioner has simply said, I don't think Brexit should

:58:49.:58:54.

mean Brexit when it comes to standards of data protection. The

:58:55.:59:00.

danger is that to paraphrase when it comes to data, Brexit could mean

:59:01.:59:06.

except for tech. The Government should be challenging the GDPR as a

:59:07.:59:11.

starting point for a comprehensive examination of how we can make that

:59:12.:59:15.

a policy of big data. I hope the Minister could tonight provide

:59:16.:59:20.

reassurance that the Government recognises the value of data for our

:59:21.:59:25.

country as well as the importance of facilitating public confidence as

:59:26.:59:31.

how the data is being used and is putting data and data protection at

:59:32.:59:36.

the heart of its negotiations. Thank you very much indeed. It normally

:59:37.:59:45.

says at the start of a Minister's speech in response to an adjournment

:59:46.:59:54.

debate let me thank the member for tabling. This time I ready mean it.

:59:55.:59:58.

This is an incredibly important subject and I think that the

:59:59.:00:02.

honourable member and I, though we sit on opposite sides of this house,

:00:03.:00:10.

have a very similar interest in, and direction that we want to achieve,

:00:11.:00:15.

in terms of the data protection regime that applies in the UK and a

:00:16.:00:22.

common understanding of the value of data in a digital economy. I have

:00:23.:00:27.

got no surprise about that because he is not only an expert on his own

:00:28.:00:32.

right, but also as the MP for Cambridge, represents one of the

:00:33.:00:35.

most data rich constituencies in the country. It is very good to see

:00:36.:00:43.

continuing investment in tech countries in Cambridge, including

:00:44.:00:49.

after June 23, and in fact one of the biggest foreign investments in

:00:50.:00:54.

any British company ever was the investment in arms holdings based in

:00:55.:00:57.

Cambridge that happened in July this year. That was a vote of confidence

:00:58.:01:05.

in British tech post-referendum and indeed since then, we've seen

:01:06.:01:10.

investment decisions by companies who are intrinsically based on the

:01:11.:01:16.

strength of our data systems like Google and Facebook and Apple and

:01:17.:01:24.

Microsoft and IBM and others. All of whom have made significant

:01:25.:01:28.

investment decisions into the UK post Brexit. We have made it clear

:01:29.:01:33.

that the data protection regulations will apply in the UK from May 20 18.

:01:34.:01:40.

We fully expect still to be in the European Union at that point and

:01:41.:01:44.

that is why we have announced that we will ensure that the GDP letter R

:01:45.:01:56.

will apply beyond them. It has evolved rapidly since then. The

:01:57.:02:01.

ability to collect and share processed data is critical. To

:02:02.:02:06.

success in today's Digital global society. I think that it is right

:02:07.:02:13.

not only to update our data protection regime because we will

:02:14.:02:17.

still be in the EE, but also because it is time to update the data

:02:18.:02:22.

protection regime given the enormous changes that are taken place and

:02:23.:02:24.

then. We were clear in the negotiations on GDPR that any new

:02:25.:02:32.

data protection regulation needs to balance the need for heights --

:02:33.:02:39.

and not putting burdens on the and not putting burdens on the

:02:40.:02:52.

businesses. Greater laxity in relating to -- greater protection.

:02:53.:02:58.

What we want is a scheme that works effectively that protect data and

:02:59.:03:03.

its flexible that ensures our data economy thrives. We were successful

:03:04.:03:10.

in negotiating a reduction in the bureaucracy whose primary activity

:03:11.:03:16.

is not data processing. But have data that nevertheless needs

:03:17.:03:23.

protecting. We have given greater discretion to the UK's information

:03:24.:03:27.

commission in the way it enforces breaches of the regulation. The new

:03:28.:03:32.

rules will strengthen rights and empower individuals to have more

:03:33.:03:36.

control over their personal data. By providing individuals with greater

:03:37.:03:40.

information on how their data is information on how their data is

:03:41.:03:44.

being used and a new right to data portability making it easier to

:03:45.:03:49.

transfer it across service providers. In addition, the GDPR

:03:50.:03:56.

provide more safeguards including fines of an organisation's global

:03:57.:04:06.

turnover being fined 4%. This is a global call of action to businesses

:04:07.:04:10.

to offer individuals assurances that their data is protected. He asked a

:04:11.:04:16.

series of questions about the cementation of the GDPR. We now need

:04:17.:04:22.

to press ahead with an fermentation. -- implementation. There is a lot of

:04:23.:04:29.

preparatory work to do in the meantime both within Government and

:04:30.:04:32.

amongst businesses right across the country. We are now working on the

:04:33.:04:40.

overall approach and the details of that implementation. The details on

:04:41.:04:45.

any new legislation in this area will be made in due course and

:04:46.:04:50.

can tell him that we are considering can tell him that we are considering

:04:51.:04:54.

these matters in great detail right as we speak. It is important for

:04:55.:05:00.

businesses and organisations to prepare now for the new standards of

:05:01.:05:05.

data processing. A lot of work has already taken place, but there is

:05:06.:05:11.

much for businesses to do to make sure their processes and practices

:05:12.:05:16.

are aligned with the GDPR. The information Commissioner is

:05:17.:05:20.

providing regular updates on the steps. Organisations and individuals

:05:21.:05:27.

should be taking for the new legal framework and to continue to provide

:05:28.:05:31.

guidance over the next few months. We plan to consult with the

:05:32.:05:37.

stakeholders on key measures where we have the opportunity to apply

:05:38.:05:40.

flexibilities that we mentioned in the regulation to maximise and

:05:41.:05:47.

protect our domestic interests and get the balance right between

:05:48.:05:49.

delivering the protection that people need and ensuring that the

:05:50.:05:59.

regulation operates in a way that ensures that the UK data economy can

:06:00.:06:04.

be highly successful. For instance one measure will be what the age of

:06:05.:06:10.

consent should be the children who wish to access information services.

:06:11.:06:13.

We want data protection framework the works best for the UK and meets

:06:14.:06:20.

our needs for the UK and they will be forthcoming. He also asked the

:06:21.:06:24.

question and adequacy and any Friday to protection regime to be

:06:25.:06:28.

interoperable with data regimes around the world. This is a question

:06:29.:06:33.

of course with our data relationship with the European Union. It is also

:06:34.:06:39.

a question of our data relationship with the countries too. The data

:06:40.:06:44.

economy is a truly global one. We've made progress in our gym and within

:06:45.:06:50.

the European Union the data localisation rules are not

:06:51.:06:55.

appropriate. That is a live issue within the EU at the moment. But I

:06:56.:06:59.

think that we are making progress on the argument there.

:07:00.:07:04.

There is work to be done between now and 2018 to make sure we achieved a

:07:05.:07:11.

coherent data protection regime and ensure that data flows with the EU

:07:12.:07:16.

are not interrupted after we leave. The Government is considering all

:07:17.:07:20.

options for the most beneficial way of ensuring that the UK's data

:07:21.:07:25.

protection regime continues to build a culture of data confidence and

:07:26.:07:29.

trust that safeguards citizens and support businesses in a global data

:07:30.:07:35.

economy. I hope that without having been able to prejudge the

:07:36.:07:42.

publication of consultations under legislative plans in this House, I

:07:43.:07:49.

can give him and the tech industry in the UK the reassurance that we

:07:50.:07:55.

are doing all that we can to ensure that our future data standards of

:07:56.:08:03.

the very highest quality, including their international links, and that

:08:04.:08:09.

we manage to get the balance right between ensuring the high levels of

:08:10.:08:14.

protection that individuals and companies need and ought to expect,

:08:15.:08:19.

would the appropriate levels of flexibility, to make sure -- with

:08:20.:08:25.

the appropriate, to make sure our data economy can be one of the

:08:26.:08:29.

strongest in the world. He makes a very deft response and I am

:08:30.:08:34.

listening closely. I wonder whether he could say a little bit more about

:08:35.:08:38.

this issue that has been raised about the impact the investigatory

:08:39.:08:42.

Powers act and the difficulty that my present in terms of achieving

:08:43.:08:48.

that adequacy agreement. Well, I was going to come onto this question

:08:49.:08:53.

that has been raised in committee, which is that the Digital Economy

:08:54.:09:01.

Bill, which includes importer -- important data-sharing arrangements,

:09:02.:09:05.

which is supported by the Labour Government in Wales for improving

:09:06.:09:10.

public services and other things by ensuring that data is appropriately

:09:11.:09:13.

share, these sharing arrangements will still be covered by the data

:09:14.:09:20.

protection regime. Of course, the Digital Economy Bill, in bringing

:09:21.:09:24.

those measures forward, is drafted according to the current law, which

:09:25.:09:29.

is of course the Data Protection Act. You cannot draft legislation in

:09:30.:09:34.

anticipation of future legislation. That is not how the body of

:09:35.:09:39.

legislation works. Instead, as and when you bring forward future

:09:40.:09:44.

legislation, to amend an existing system at the Data Protection Act,

:09:45.:09:49.

one would expect that would include amendment to the then existing

:09:50.:09:57.

digital economy act, should this Parliament pass that Bill, to make

:09:58.:10:03.

it consistent. That is the way that legislation is made in the UK, and

:10:04.:10:13.

it is neither possible nor logically sensible to legislate in

:10:14.:10:16.

anticipation of future legislation, that even if you fully expect that

:10:17.:10:24.

to come into force. So, with regards to all of the existing statutes, and

:10:25.:10:30.

the Digital Economy Bill, which is currently before the other place,

:10:31.:10:37.

they are drafted with reference to the existing regime, because they

:10:38.:10:43.

will come into force before the existing regime is replaced by the

:10:44.:10:49.

expected future regime in 2018. I may have been making a more

:10:50.:10:55.

convoluted than are needed to be but I hope that it's an excavation for

:10:56.:10:58.

what the Digital Economy Bill and the other recent legislation is

:10:59.:11:02.

drafted in the way it is. I have heard those complaints before, but

:11:03.:11:05.

they said they have missed the point as to the way that legislation is

:11:06.:11:12.

made and framed. I hope that answers his question and that he is

:11:13.:11:15.

reassured that we are working to implement a modern and effective

:11:16.:11:19.

data protection framework, fit for purpose for the digital age, and I

:11:20.:11:22.

welcome the honourable member's input.

:11:23.:11:28.

The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of the

:11:29.:11:31.

opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." The ayes have it, the ayes

:11:32.:11:37.

have it. Order, order!

:11:38.:11:41.

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