Browse content similar to 12/12/2016. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Exceptionally, I understand that it flows from what has taken place, I | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
will hear a point of order now. But I'm sure the Honourable Gentleman | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
will not abuse his privilege. During defence questions it was raised that | :00:10. | :00:15. | |
the shipbuilding strategy had been published and that he would send a | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
signed copy to my honourable friend. But when cross examined, he stated | :00:20. | :00:31. | |
that publication would take place in spring 2017. Will the Secretary of | :00:32. | :00:39. | |
State now see which one it is. The Honourable Gentleman had a beaming | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
countenance and he felt he had unearthed an honourable nugget. I am | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
glad to bring a little bit of happiness to him. We will leave it | :00:53. | :01:01. | |
there for now. Will the member wishing to take her seat please come | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
to the table. I swear by Almighty God that I will | :01:06. | :01:40. | |
be faithful and there true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
Elizabeth and her heirs and successors, so help me God. | :01:44. | :02:20. | |
Urgent question. To have the Secretary of State for help to make | :02:21. | :03:01. | |
a statement on the crisis in social care and the effect this is having | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
on the NHS and on the care of vulnerable older people. I thank the | :03:05. | :03:14. | |
honourable lady for raising the question today. I think all members | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
of this House will agree that there are few areas of domestic policy | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
which touch on so many lives. And that also important to so many of | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
our constituents. I would like to start by acknowledging the work of | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
over 1.4 million professional carers, the majority of whom provide | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
excellent and compassionate care. I would also like to acknowledge the 6 | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
million in form will carers who do so much. Spending on long-term care | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
in our country is more than the OECD average. It is more than in France | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
and Germany. Nonetheless I accept that our system is under strain and | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
that pressure has been building for some years now. In response the | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
Government response to this has been to ensure that the councils have | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
access to funding to increase social care spending by the end of this | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
Parliament. We estimate a 5% increase in real terms. Additional | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
funding comes from the better care fund, the additional better care | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
fund, and changes to the precept. To put into place and enforce a robust | :04:27. | :04:31. | |
regulatory system between 2014 and early next year all homes and | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
providers will be inspected again. 72% are classified as good or | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
outstanding. Where homes are inadequate, power is now exist to | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
ensure improvement or forced the closure. These powers are being | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
used. To work with local authorities to ensure the continuing market | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
exists. In the last six years the total number of beds has remained | :04:59. | :05:04. | |
constant. There were 40% more care providers than 2010. Finally to | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
drive further and faster the integration of care and health | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
systems. We have seen that the councils would do this best | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
demonstrate far fewer delayed transfers than those adopting best | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
practice more slowly. Any system would benefit from a higher budget | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
and social care is no exception. But quality matters too. Today is not a | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
budget statement nor a local Government settlement, but I wished | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
to end by commending again the many hundreds of thousands of carers who | :05:39. | :05:44. | |
work so hard to make the system work for so many. That was a | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
disappointment. Before the Autumn Statement be debated the funding | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
crisis in social care, not a strain but a crisis and the serious | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
concerns expressed by local Government, health and clinical | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
leaders. We called on the Government to bring forward funding to address | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
the crisis. The Chancellor did not listen and did not bring forward any | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
funding for social care nor mention it at all. Handy care Minister tell | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
us in his response by health ministers do not stand up for | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
vulnerable and older people in this country and why they do not fight | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
harder to get funding for social care? Over 1 million older people | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
have care needs and there is less publicly funded care than in 2010. | :06:39. | :06:45. | |
There is a heavier burden on unpaid family carers. This crisis has been | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
made by this Government G2 ?5 billion being cut. Does the | :06:52. | :06:57. | |
Government intend to dump this funding crisis on local councils and | :06:58. | :07:03. | |
to council taxpayers to increase the social care precept? That proposal | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
has been called deeply flawed because local councils and the least | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
deprived areas would be able to raise more than twice as much as | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
those in the most deprived areas. That means that the precept would | :07:16. | :07:21. | |
earn 15 pounds per head in Richmond but only 5p in Manchester. That | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
would widen inequality across the country. Is it the care Minister's | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
intention to support a solution that widens an equality of access and | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
deny social care to hundreds of thousands of vulnerable older | :07:37. | :07:36. | |
people? The honourable lady fought the last | :07:37. | :07:45. | |
election on a manifesto that said not one penny more for oakal | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
Government spending, that's what she fought the last election on. She's | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
made a statement today and she's against the change to the | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
pre-September that we brought in in the Spending Review. She talked | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
about being against taxpayers and council tax payers having to meet | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
the cost of increased social care. That rather begs the question who | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
she thinks should be paying for it - is it borrowing or is it the magic | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
money tree? She made the point Mr Speaker, she made the point about | :08:16. | :08:25. | |
the precept, she said that the precept increases inequalities | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
because some councils could raise more. That would be true except for | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
the fact that the better care fund is distributed in a way that | :08:34. | :08:36. | |
balances that. That is precisely what we do. | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
THE SPEAKER: I should advise the House that there are of course, | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
three urgent questions to be taken today. I want all to be properly | :08:43. | :08:47. | |
contributed to. It is important that we also provide time for subsequent | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
business. I looking at finishing by 5. 30pm or there abouts. Perhaps | :08:54. | :09:00. | |
colleagues could tailor their contributions accordingly. I hope in | :09:01. | :09:08. | |
looking at coordinated policy across Government, the minister will look | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
not only at good join up between the department for health and the local | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
Government and other policies like lifetime homes, family strengthening | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
and employment policies, all of which will help us deal with these | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
issues. Could he give encouragement on that score? I thank him for that | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
question. He's quite right, there's a whole raft of measures that need | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
to be taken on envelope careers and in terms of the Holy Grail of better | :09:34. | :09:37. | |
integration of health and social care funding and we are pursuing | :09:38. | :09:44. | |
that vigorously. Obviously this was the substance of the letter from the | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Health Select Committee to the Chancellor not actually calling for | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
extra money for the NHS, but particularly for the capital budgets | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
and social care, because basically, the back pressure from social care | :09:57. | :10:00. | |
is actually what is causing the NHS to struggle. I totally agree with | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
the minister with regards integration and in Scotland, where | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
we have the integrated joint boards, it has brought a change quicker than | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
we would heaped. Our delayed discharges are down 9% a year, in | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
England up over 30%. This isn't something that's easy and it's | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
something that needs to be funded. We've debated the STP plans, which | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
could be the basis for the future integration of the NHS. But all we | :10:29. | :10:35. | |
hear is within those plans community hospitals being shut, losing the | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
opportunity to have step-up and step-down beds, A being shut and | :10:42. | :10:44. | |
beds within hospitals being shut. This is the wrong way round. STPs | :10:45. | :10:49. | |
could work, but they can't start with the number they must reach. | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
They have to design themselves around a service that keeps patients | :10:55. | :11:00. | |
at home and keeps them well. Mr Speaker, the honourable lady made | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
two points both of which I agree with. The first was in Scotland 9% | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
reduction in delayed transfers of care is also true, in England many | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
parts of our system, particularly those that have integrated most | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
quickly have achieved reductions of that amount and more. In terms of | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
the SDP, she is right that the SDP is part of process of us | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
re-engineering the system and adult social care and the integration of | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
that care is a big part this afternoon. We need to make sure we | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
deliver. Would the minister agrow with me that better integration | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
could be driven by better patient data and it could help show us where | :11:42. | :11:47. | |
quality practices exist and how to spread this best practice. I would | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
agree. I had a discussion with the CQC with that subject in terms of | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
the data set of what is reported. I'm hoping over the next months and | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
years we can make improvement on how we do that. I think the minister has | :12:01. | :12:07. | |
completely missed the point raised by my honourable friend from the | :12:08. | :12:13. | |
frontbench about the unfairness of asking councils to deal with the | :12:14. | :12:19. | |
problem. A 1% rise in council tax in Doncaster raises 21% less than a | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
council in the Prime Minister's constituency. Surely that means that | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
the problem is being pushed onto the areas that can least afford it. | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
She'll be right, I would have missed the point had I not said that issue | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
she has raised is addressed by the way that we distribute the better | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
care fund, which use as formula which takes into account relative | :12:43. | :12:49. | |
need. The The minister will know following recent events this issue | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
is something I've taken a particular interest in. Would he agree with me | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
that saying it's just about money is too simplistic. We see a wide | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
sprerite of quality of care from homes under the same fund being | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
packages. Does he also agree that we need to improve the inspection | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
regime to ensure that concerns are take be seriously? Mr Speaker, I do | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
agree with that. I commend the member for the work he did on the | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
morely home in his constituency, which had significant issues and now | :13:19. | :13:21. | |
which has been substantially closed down. He is right in saying the | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
issues there were not principally about money, but about quality and | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
people doing their jobs properly. Does the minister share the view of | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
the Care Quality Commission that the system is close to tipping point? | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
And does he understand the impact that has on very many frail, elderly | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
people? Does he not agree now is the time to bury our differences, work | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
together to come up with a long-term settlement for the health and care | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
system? Mr Speaker, today is not the day in which we are going to | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
announce a royal commission on the funding of care into the future. But | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
I do agree that it's important that we do put care funding onto a better | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
structural basis into the future and the honourable member is right to | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
say that. I applaud this Government's | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
commitment to the 10 polled about to the NHS by 2020. Does my right | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
honourable friend agrow that social care and health care must be better | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
integrated across the whole country. Somerset County Council | :14:27. | :14:28. | |
sustainability and transformation plan has this at its heart. It's a | :14:29. | :14:32. | |
good model. Would my right honourable friend agrow models like | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
this should be copied, but they must be given the tools? The SDP for | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
Somerset is excellent in this regard. She is right to raise it. | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
She's also right to emphasise again integration of health and social | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
care is the Holy Grail of this. Those health systems which do it | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
best are making a huge difference. Is he aware that the local | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
authorities in the past few years, let's say in Derbyshire have lost | :15:04. | :15:09. | |
more than ?200 million that have been promulgated by the Government. | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
On top of which they're closing community hospitals in Derbyshire, | :15:14. | :15:19. | |
with a total of more than 100 beds between them. Does it make sense | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
when these community hospitals bear the burden of looking after people | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
that can't occupy hospital beds? Mr Speaker, he is right to say that | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
there have been changes to the funding regime. But the facts are, | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
Mr Speaker, the facts are that councils such as Knowsley, St Helens | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
have got virtually no delayed transfers of care, and they have the | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
same budget issues as his own council. With an ageing population | :15:51. | :15:58. | |
the welcome introduction of the national living rage and rightly | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
greater expectations on service proz vieded is causing exponential growth | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
in the care sector. Whilst the council tax cap has delivered | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
financial discipline we have to be realistic. I would urge the minister | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
to explore further flexibility with the social care preset. I said | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
during mys answer to the honourable lady that today is not a spending | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
statement, it's not a statement on the local Government settlement | :16:29. | :16:32. | |
either. I will just leave it at that. | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
May I say to the minister, it would be a huge mistake to think he can | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
plug the gaping hole in care funding with the social care precept alone. | :16:45. | :16:50. | |
The poorest areas, will be least likely to be able to get social care | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
by raising council tax. If not today, when will the minister come | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
to the House with a plan to solve this crisis and help families, care | :16:59. | :17:05. | |
users and the NHS? Mr Speaker, I have acknowledged that the system is | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
under pressure. I have acknowledged that different councils respond to | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
that pressure in a different way. For example, next year, 16/17, | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
Leicester council have increased their care budget by 7% in real | :17:20. | :17:25. | |
terms. Shroud waving by the Labour Party is | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
particularly depressing given that they did virtually nothing on this | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
issue in 13 years in power. Would my honourable friend agrow with me that | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
it's important to use fiscal incentives in respect of both DCLG | :17:40. | :17:49. | |
and the Treasury to encourage more care and to iron out disparity in | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
care delivered between different local authorities. Yes Mr Speaker, | :17:53. | :17:58. | |
there is disparity. In the marketplace and between local | :17:59. | :18:00. | |
authorities. We need to do everything we can, working with the | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
CQC to ensure that is eliminated. Doesn't the minister realise that | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
his statement today is totally inadequate to the crisis in social | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
care, that the complacency he shows is totally unrealistic to what is | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
happening in the country and what we require is a very different response | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
than what he's given today? I'm tempted to just say no, I don't | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
acknowledge that. I make the point again, I am not complacent. We | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
understand that the system is under pressure. And we acknowledge and | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
accept that. That is not the same, Mr Speaker, as saying that there | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
aren't things we can do in terms of quality provision to manage it | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
better. That's what we're going to do. | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
Adult social care accounts for 45% of Lancashire County Council's | :18:51. | :18:54. | |
budget, that's a growing share. The key to addressing this challenge | :18:55. | :18:57. | |
would be the better integration of to health and social care to manage | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
demand. What funding is provided to Lancashire County Council to allow | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
that transformation to take place? Mr Speaker the better care fund is | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
predicated on the assumption that we will driver that integration. I make | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
the point that many councils right across the country, not just | :19:15. | :19:18. | |
Leicester, for example, have increased and will increase their | :19:19. | :19:20. | |
social care budget in real terms next year. Something like 40%. | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
By 2020 we will see a national short fall of 2. ?2.6 billion in adult | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
social care funding. If the Government is forcing councils to | :19:35. | :19:37. | |
increase council tax, what percentage would they be expected to | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
increase it by? And what of this percentage increase would go solely | :19:42. | :19:45. | |
to adult social care services? And how with the Government ensure this? | :19:46. | :19:54. | |
Mr Speaker, the Spending Review increased the precept by 2%. That's | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
what we brought in at that time. As I said earlier, this is not the | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
local Government settlement. I've got nothing to say on council tax. | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
Er Mr Speaker, many people on both sides of the House feel that the | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
social care system is broken because there are councils involved and | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
Health Service involved. Would be it be a very good idea, Sir, if the | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
Secretary of State or minister could work across the House, with goodwill | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
on both sides, rather than this petty point scoring from the other | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
side, no, this is much more serious than politics. We've got to get this | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
right for future generations. Shouldn't we work together and come | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
up with a solution that all sides of the House can agree on? Mr Speaker, | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
he is right that this whole system is more important than politics. | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
There is nothing I said, nothing more important to more people and | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
more old people in terms of the dignity and quality of their lives | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
than getting this right. It's essential that we do that. | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
THE SPEAKER: An eagle. LAUGHTER | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
Liverpool City Council has seen ?330 million cut from its budget since | :21:11. | :21:17. | |
2010. 58% of all its money. A further ?90 million has to be found | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
by 2020. Can he say in that circumstance how it is going to be | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
possible for Liverpool City Council to increase, as we all wish it | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
could, the money that it spends on adult Social Services, when it | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
actually already spends more on adult social care, ?146 million than | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
it can raise in council tax? Mr Speaker, it is not my role to | :21:43. | :21:48. | |
lecture Liverpool City Council in how to deliver adult social care. I | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
make the point though that Knowsley and St Helens, very close to | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
Liverpool, have virtually no delayed transfers of care. Some best | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
practice sharing would be in order possibly. | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
THE SPEAKER: I don't want to see a festering sibling rivalry. I think | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
it's right that you chose the younger before the older because you | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
did the opposite last time you had the choice. In the whirl, we have an | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
above average number of older people, yet we have a very low | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
council tax base, which means we cannot raise council tax, raise | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
enough money to deal with the short falls in adult social care. The | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
minister knows, ?5 billion has been cut from social care since 2010. His | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
better care budget is 3. 5 billion, so there are huge issues here. Why | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
wasn't this mentioned in the Autumn Statement? And what is the | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
Government's response to this ongoing crisis? | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
I made the point already and I will make it again, we acknowledge that | :22:53. | :23:00. | |
the precept is uneven when it was announced in the spending review, | :23:01. | :23:02. | |
which is why the additional better care fund is allocated on a basis | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
that remedies that. I just want to talk about the | :23:07. | :23:24. | |
remedies. I put in a FOIA about the weekly residential rate across every | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
council in the country. Buckinghamshire gets ?615 a week, | :23:29. | :23:35. | |
while Birmingham, where my grandparents died, gets ?436 and has | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
to make an additional charge of ?55 a week to the residents who live | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
there, who are in no doubt Pooler than those who live in | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
Buckinghamshire. Does that sound like a discrepancy that is being | :23:49. | :24:02. | |
solved by the system? The reports in terms of quality for Buckinghamshire | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
and Birmingham are things that we look at across the system and we are | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
not finding geographic variation based on those statistics. That is | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
the fact of the matter. I have heard nothing from the Minister this | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
afternoon to demonstrate that he understands the severity of the | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
situation facing social care. A cross-party group of MPs met last | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
week and they said that they need one point the billion pounds to | :24:33. | :24:38. | |
stabilise social care in this country and they pointed out that | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
that money cannot be raised by council tax, especially because it | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
raises the least money in the areas where it is most needed. In terms of | :24:50. | :24:57. | |
council tax increases there has already been an announcement that | :24:58. | :24:59. | |
the better care fund will deliver more money from next April and it | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
will deliver more money after that. During this Parliament and will be a | :25:05. | :25:11. | |
5% increase in money spent on adult social care. That is from next | :25:12. | :25:20. | |
April. Can the Minister tell me how it is feared this year that the area | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
I represent, the 19th most disadvantage is the country, will | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
only be able to raise half of what an area like Kingston upon Thames | :25:32. | :25:38. | |
can raise. We can raise ?5, they can raise more than that. How can that | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
be fair? 42% of councils this year are increasing their adult social | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
care funding in real terms. In terms of the discrepancy caused by the | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
precept, it is addressed by the way that we allocate the additional | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
better care fund component and a formula that is used for that. I | :26:01. | :26:08. | |
think a menace recognises there is a crisis and he recognises that the | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
precept will not address that alone, so does he agree with the former | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
Health Secretary Jenny said this morning it was a missed opportunity | :26:18. | :26:25. | |
not to invest in social care? I am not giving the Autumn Statement, but | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
I will say that there is a 5% increase in real terms in social | :26:32. | :26:37. | |
adult funding in the course of this Parliament and 42% of councils are | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
increasing the budget in real terms this year. I think the Minister | :26:42. | :26:51. | |
needs to recognise that it is not just that it can be more difficult | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
for them to raise the money, as we have already heard from our | :26:55. | :27:03. | |
colleagues, they are also demographic concerns that mean it is | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
more challenging to actually deliver health services in cities like | :27:10. | :27:15. | |
Bristol. We're looking at ?92 million cuts that we need to find | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
over the next five years. Could he come to Bristol to top to the mayor | :27:21. | :27:23. | |
and to hear about the challenges we are facing? Cities do have issues | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
with delivering social care, but so do rural areas that often have older | :27:30. | :27:37. | |
people which can absorb a lot of costs. The truth is that the whole | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
system is under pressure, including in Bristol and weird knowledge that | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
and we are increasing the total spent by 5% during the course of | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
this Parliament. We have heard from honourable friends about the | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
failings of the preset model to address this issue, but what about | :27:59. | :28:01. | |
councils like Cambridgeshire but chose not even to make the meagre | :28:02. | :28:07. | |
resources available, they left the local hospital but a -year-old pupil | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
with nowhere to go. Will the Government stand up for older people | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
in Cambridgeshire? That was a decision made by Cambridge Council. | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
There were other councils that made a similar choice, not to increase | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
the precept, and not to feel as if they needed to use that money for | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
adult social care. That is a choice that local councils have and they | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
must take it to their voters. Sheffield is about to lose its last | :28:41. | :28:46. | |
emergency respite care for complex dementia need patience. They cannot | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
be cared for in the community. Sheffield has the second largest | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
better care fund in the country. Is today not the day for the Minister | :28:58. | :29:00. | |
to announce a row commission, when will he act? I am not aware of the | :29:01. | :29:09. | |
specific issues she has raised in terms of the respite care in | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
Sheffield, but I would be happy to discuss that with her. I can only | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
repeat that today is not the day that we will announce a Royal | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
commission into funding. Providers in my constituency tell me that they | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
are losing staff to a star because they cannot compete with pay and | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
conditions because the council cannot commission care at a price | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
that enables them to do so. What will the Minister do to stem this | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
haemorrhaging of care workers from the profession and the provision of | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
care? There is an issue with that and that issue exists in various | :29:48. | :29:50. | |
parts of the country and we acknowledge and need to manage it. | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
But we also need to manage the total number of beds that are in the | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
system and the total number of domiciliary providers in the system. | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
The total number of beds is the same as it was six years ago. The total | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
number of providers is about 40% higher. The Minister in the debate | :30:11. | :30:19. | |
on the 16th of November said that he can gradually to its some councils | :30:20. | :30:24. | |
were being two of the best performing in the country on delayed | :30:25. | :30:26. | |
transfers incurring and increasing their budgets. But there is still a | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
massive shortfall because the precept was nowhere near meeting the | :30:32. | :30:37. | |
demand for services in the area. There is no coherent national | :30:38. | :30:42. | |
strategy or funding package in place to solve the crisis we are facing. | :30:43. | :30:50. | |
It will tip over. The Honourable Gentleman is right that I did | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
congratulate to councils for having very low delayed transfers of care. | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
The fact that they are doing that in spite of the budget constraints | :31:03. | :31:04. | |
mentioned demonstrates that this is not just about money it is about | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
quality, leadership and best practice. The chief executive of | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
care for England and said that under the current regime around 40% of | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
care services will no longer be viable so they will be lost. When | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
does the Minister intend to do something about this crisis? The | :31:24. | :31:32. | |
number of beds available in the system is around about the same as | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
it was six years ago, but there is an issue with managing the financial | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
performance of significant care providers and one thing that we | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
brought in two years ago is a process where they look at the | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
financial performance of the biggest providers to give us warning of | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
issues that might arise. We are keen on making sure that happens. This is | :31:55. | :32:03. | |
a national crisis that the Government has ignored for years. As | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
the Minister said there is no issue that cannot be solved by throwing | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
money at it. Is not about time that he put his where his mouth is? I | :32:12. | :32:19. | |
think she is paraphrasing my opening statement in accurately. I said | :32:20. | :32:23. | |
money would help with any system but the issues here are about quality | :32:24. | :32:26. | |
and leadership and about best practice. All of those things are | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
within the remit of my job and I'm pursuing them. Everything we have | :32:32. | :32:39. | |
heard today seems to want to deny that the council tax precept is no | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
solution to the problem and that it makes it worse. Is he aware that the | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
Association of directors of adult social services has said that the | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
council tax precept will raise least money in areas of greatest need | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
which means it will widen inequality. If that is what the | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
experts as saying why does the Minister think he knows better? I've | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
discussed this and other issues often. It is true that the precept | :33:08. | :33:15. | |
if it was only the precept would result in an uneven distribution of | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
revenue, that is why the additional care funds are allocated using a | :33:21. | :33:28. | |
formula which takes that into account. Urgent question. Will the | :33:29. | :33:40. | |
Secretary of State for Culture, Media and Sport make an urgent | :33:41. | :33:46. | |
statement on 21st-century Fox's bid to take over the remaining 61% of | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
Sky? As the House will know this guy -- House will now Sky are trying to | :33:51. | :34:11. | |
organise a takeover with Fox. 21st-century Fox have agreed on | :34:12. | :34:17. | |
price but the offer is subject to further discussion and Sky has said | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
that there is no certainty and offer will be made. The terms will need to | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
be agreed by the shareholders of Sky and the announcement also said that | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
21st-century Fox must set out their intentions by the 6th of January | :34:35. | :34:40. | |
2000 and 17. The Secretary of State has the power to intervene in | :34:41. | :34:44. | |
certain media mergers in the interests of public interest. Under | :34:45. | :34:51. | |
that act there is an indication of how an intervention will take place | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
in practice when considering cases. Any transaction will be looked at on | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
a case-by-case basis. The guidance makes clear that the Secretary of | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
State will aim to take an initial decision on whether to intervene | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
within ten working days of formal notification of the merger to the | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
competition authorities or offer being brought to her attention. No | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
such formal notification has been received. The role of the Secretary | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
of State here is that she acts independently and is not subject in | :35:28. | :35:33. | |
proper influence. It would be improper of me to comment on this | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
proposed bill. Given the role of the Secretary of State, the department | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
is putting in place procedures to ensure that her decision-making | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
process is fair and impartial, should a decision be necessary. This | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
will include guidance for other ministers and officials and for any | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
other interested parties. We are aware of the wider interest of the | :35:57. | :35:59. | |
department in these matters and we will keep the House up-to-date as | :36:00. | :36:02. | |
appropriate within the legal framework. | :36:03. | :36:18. | |
And you bet has been revealed. In the past the House is United 's | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
behind a motion calling on Rupert Murdoch to withdraw his bid. The | :36:28. | :36:31. | |
concerns in 2011 were not about the serious wrongdoing that is being | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
done in the Ford hacking scandal, but also that the concentration of | :36:36. | :36:38. | |
media power and media ownership in fewer hands. I have we read that | :36:39. | :36:45. | |
motion, which we all supported, and nowhere does it say that we should | :36:46. | :36:50. | |
sit quietly for five years and come back when we had forgotten about it. | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
We have not forgotten about it, Mr Speaker, and we have not forgotten | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
that when the Prime Minister stood on the steps in the summer, she said | :37:01. | :37:08. | |
that when we were taking the calls we would think not of the powerful | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
but of the people. We need to know whose side the Government is on. Of, | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
assessed that the deal might operate against the public interest. For the | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
Minister commit the Government to issuing a public interest | :37:23. | :37:29. | |
intervention notice and referring the better off,? Back in 2012, of | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
con's assessment of James Murdoch was that he repeatedly fell short of | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
the exercise of responsibility to be expected of him as CEO and chairman. | :37:43. | :37:48. | |
The Prime Minister met Rupert Murdoch in September. Was the dead | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
discussed then and did she give him any assurances about the bid or | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
discuss his future support for her fall for her Government. I | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
understand this is a quasi-judicial decision and the words that the | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
Minister says today will be scrutinised by some of the highest | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
paid lawyers on two continents. Nonetheless, kinky assurers that the | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
Secretary of State is prepared to stand up to powerful interests and | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
ensure that this deal is properly and independently scrutinised? | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
I'm grateful for the acknowledgement by the frontbench opposite that due | :38:27. | :38:32. | |
to the quasi-judicial nature of this decision procedures have to be | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
followed properly. That's what we fully intend to do. Formal | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
notification of this proposal has not been received, so of course, the | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
Secretary of State can't make a decision prior to that. As I said, | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
the rules are that she should aim to take such a decision within ten days | :38:50. | :38:58. | |
of formal notification. Can I thank the minister for his answer. Also | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
recognise the quasi-judicial nature of the decision the Secretary of | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
State has to make. But let me ask two technical questions, since the | :39:09. | :39:18. | |
bid in 2010 which was withdrawn, the newspaper operations from the | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
broadcast and film operations. Can I ask the minister if the Secretary of | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
State or how much weight the Secretary of State will give to that | :39:26. | :39:34. | |
separation in determining any questions plurality in the UK media? | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
And given the separation has happened, to some extent, how much | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
weight the Secretary of State will place on that, when determining | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
whether or not to issue a public interest intervention notice? The | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
plurality rules are clearly set out, as he knows. The Secretary of State | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
will follow them very carefully in this determination. Does my right | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
honourable friend accept that in the event of a bid, there is a strong | :40:04. | :40:08. | |
case for asking the regulators to provide advice about any concerns on | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
competition on plurality grounds. Would he agrow that this essentially | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
would be an investment decision rather than acquisition since 21st | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
century fox have effective control of Sky? Would he also agrow since | :40:22. | :40:26. | |
the last bid, which was approved by Ofcom, subject to certain remedies, | :40:27. | :40:30. | |
there has been a considerable increase in competition in the paid | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
TV market? Of course, this decision has to be take anyone the context of | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
the world as we find it. The situation as we find it in terms of | :40:42. | :40:50. | |
ownership is that 21st century fox owned 39% of Sky. The notification | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
to the Stock Exchange on Friday was about the proposal to buy the other | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
61%. Those issues will be taken into account when the decision is made. | :41:00. | :41:07. | |
Can I say that I understand the minister's complex position on these | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
matters, but can I ask him to take into account the fact that compared | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
to five years ago, when the House passed the motion that it did | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
unanimously saying the bid shouldn't go ahead, we still have issues of | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
phone hacking unresolved in the courts, and we still have a system | :41:24. | :41:28. | |
of self-regulation that has not satisfied the victims of phone | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
hacking. Can I ask him to bear in mind this question: What has really | :41:33. | :41:36. | |
changed since the House passed the motion five years ago? In my view, | :41:37. | :41:41. | |
very little. That is why I believe this bid should be rejected. Well, | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
it's enjoyable to be seen at the rerun of one of the right honourable | :41:50. | :41:54. | |
gentleman's greatest hits. He says that the position, my position in | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
this today is complex, actually, the position is very simple. We haven't | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
yet received a formal notification. When we do, the Secretary of State | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
will have ten days to consider under the enterprise act and other | :42:08. | :42:15. | |
legislation whether it is necessary to take action and that process will | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
start when a formal notification is received. At this early stage, is | :42:20. | :42:28. | |
the department giving consideration as to whether some of the conditions | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
attached to the deal last time, such as the guarantee of editorial | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
independence by Sky News will be required this time round given the | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
restructuring of the Murdoch companies? The notification was | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
given to the stock market on Friday morning. No formal notification to | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
competition authorities has been received. So I would say and I think | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
it's fair to say that this is quite early on in this process, but all | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
things that are appropriate to be considered will be considered. What | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
differences can the minister see between this bid an the one that was | :43:08. | :43:16. | |
referred by Vince Cable in 2010 to the competition authorities? It's | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
quite hard until we get formal notification to see what the shape | :43:21. | :43:24. | |
of the proposals will be, then we will have a look at them. | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
I congratulate the Shadow minister on this urgent question. I | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
completely understand the minister's problem and not judging an | :43:38. | :43:39. | |
application that hasn't been notified. Would he take from this | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
debate that there is a concern across the House about this issue | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
and would he undertake to keep the House fully informed because I think | :43:49. | :43:51. | |
that's the message that's coming across today? Yes, of course. I'd be | :43:52. | :43:57. | |
delighted to keep the House as informed as appropriate under the | :43:58. | :44:04. | |
legislation that this House has passed, but I apoll eyes to the | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
House if -- apologise to the House if some remarks sound reticent, but | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
the House will understand this is a quasi-judicial decision. The | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
Secretary of State does not want her position to be prejudiced. I don't | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
want to do that. But all of these considerations will be taken into | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
account. From whom will the Secretary of State take advice about | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
the competition implications of this bid? Of course, advice will be taken | :44:30. | :44:38. | |
from officials in the department. Procedures are put in place to | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
ensure no conflict of interest and that the decision is taken | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
appropriately. I'd like to give the minister a second chance to answer | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
the question my honourable friend from Cardiff west put to him. Did | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
the Prime Minister discuss this deal with Murdoch in September in New | :44:54. | :45:01. | |
York? Surely the only thing that really matters in this is the public | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
interest, because when we had a period when one man had control of | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
40% of the newspapers in this country, the largest daily | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
newspaper, the largest Sunday newspaper and the largest | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
broadcaster by far by value in this country, that poisoned the well of | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
British politics. So I urge the Government ministers as they go | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
through this process in the quasi-judicial manner that she | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
suggests that they just keep that very close to the front of their | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
mind. Well, I'm very grateful for the | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
wisdom of the honourable gentleman, who I know has taken a great | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
interest in these affairs over a very long period of time. Over 8,000 | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
people work at Sky's headquarters in my constituency. Many there will be | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
concerned about this news, particularly those who work in | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
journalism. Is the minister at all concerned that through this deal one | :46:03. | :46:06. | |
man will take 100% ownership of one of the UK's biggest media outlets? I | :46:07. | :46:12. | |
just want to be clear that the Secretary of State's decision in | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
this area relates to media plurality. Of course, there are | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
competition issues and labour market issues. But the enterprise act is | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
clear about the breadth of the decision that she will take and | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
she'll follow those procedures very carefully. I would echo what the | :46:34. | :46:43. | |
honourable member for Ron that said about -- rounda said about the | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
public interest and concern. Anyone who watched the American elections | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
has real concerns about the way Fox News operates. I would urge him to | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
bear in mind in the public's mind this man is not a fit and proper | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
person to have control of our media. Well, what I can assure her is that | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
the Secretary of State is a fit and proper person to take this decision. | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
Members across the House have made their views clear and we will | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
operate carefully with appropriate guidance in place, both to ministers | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
and officials, to make sure that this decision is taken in the proper | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
way. THE SPEAKER: Order. Urgent question | :47:30. | :47:35. | |
Mr Keith Vaz. Will the minister provide an answer | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
to the urgent question of which I have given him notice. Thank you | :47:40. | :47:48. | |
very much Mr Speaker. As the Foreign Secretary has made clear during his | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
trip to the region this weekend, Britain supports the Saudi-led | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
campaign to restore the reiate mat government in Yemen. Ultimately a | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
political solution is the best way to bring long-term stability to | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
Yemen and end the conflict. We continue to have deep concerns for | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
the suffering of the people of Yemen, which is why making progress | :48:11. | :48:16. | |
on Peace Talks is the top priority. As with all negotiations of this | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
kind, they will not be quick or indeed easy and a lot of tough | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
discussions will need to be had. The United Nationses has -- the United | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
Nations has drawn up a road map to end the conflict with the steps the | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
parties must take. The UK is playing a central role in this process. The | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
Foreign Secretary hosted the last meeting of the quad, comprising of | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, the United States and the | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
United Kingdom, which the UN Special Envoy attended on October 16. In | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
addition, Mr Speaker, I travelled to Riyadh on 20th November to discuss | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
the road map with the president there and seek ways to find a | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
political solution to the conflict. Most recently, the Prime Minister | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
and the Foreign Secretary raised Yemen during their visit to the | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
region and I met with the vice-president, this Saturday. As | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
the House will be aware, Yemen is one of the most serious humanitarian | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
crises in the world. So in addition to our considerable diplomatic | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
efforts to try and bring an end to the conflict, the United Kingdom is | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
the fourth largest donor to Yemen, committed ?100 million to Yemen for | :49:33. | :49:40. | |
2016 and 2017. UK aid is making a difference in Yemen. Last year we | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
helped more tan 1. 3 million Yemenis with food, medical supplies, water | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
and emergency shelter. The situation in Yemen is indeed grave. It is why | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
we are debating this matter today. There are now plans for the quad to | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
meet in the very near future, for us to move this important process | :49:59. | :50:00. | |
forward. THE SPEAKER: I appreciate the | :50:01. | :50:10. | |
pithiness from the member, but in the name of transparency for those | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
attending to our proceedings from outside the neighbour, I should have | :50:15. | :50:18. | |
that the question is to ask the Secretary of State if he'll make a | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
statement to clarify the United Kingdom's policy on the conflict in | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
Yemen. Mr Keith Vaz. I'm grateful to you for granting this urgents | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
question and to the minister for his answer. Until now, our foreign | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
policy objectives in Yemen have been crystal clear, pursuing a secession | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
of hostilities and backing a UN-mandated intervention. Last week, | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
the Foreign Secretary was absolutely right to speak of his profound | :50:49. | :50:55. | |
concern for the Yemeni people and correct to say This Is What You Came | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
For conflict could not -- to say that this conflict could not be | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
solved by force alone. His words revealed an inconsistency in our | :51:05. | :51:08. | |
foreign policy, which if not addressed immediately, threatens to | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
wreck everything that we are trying to accomplish. Please confirm that | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
we would never be involved in any puppeteering or proxy wars anywhere | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
in the world, including in Yemen. Our influence and credibility as an | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
honest broker is now being seriously questioned. When we criticise | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
Russian's bombing of ahopee, the Russians -- Aleppo, the Russians are | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
accusing us of supporting the same it thing in Yemen. Can the minister | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
clarify that our objective is an immediate ceasefire and can he lay | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
out the detail on how we will get to that position? As the Foreign | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
Secretary has said, we hold the pens on Yemen at the United Nations. | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
There is already a draft Security Council resolution calling for an | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
immediate ceasefire, resumption of Peace Talks and humanitarian access. | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
Where is this resolution now? Will it be tabled before the Security | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
Council before the end of the year? We must not fiddle as Yemen burns. | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
On Saturday Islamic State bombed a military camp, killing 35 soldiers. | :52:18. | :52:23. | |
The UN humanitarian coordinator Stephen O'Brien calls Yemen a | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
man-made, brutal, humanitarian disaster, with four fifths of the | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
population in desperate need of emergency aid. On Wednesday, the | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
House, including the minister, will show their support for the | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
incredible work of a humanitarian agency's Yemen day. Today the | :52:42. | :52:45. | |
Disasters Emergency Committee announced a long overdue emergency | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
appeal, but if the fighting doesn't stop, this will not be enough. The | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
Government must speak with one voice and with one aim for Yemen, that | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
should be an immediate ceasefire. Anything else, Mr Speaker, only | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
plays into the hands of terrorist organisations in, damaging our | :53:06. | :53:07. | |
diplomacy and increases the suffering of the Yemeni people. | :53:08. | :53:17. | |
Can I pay tribute to the continued work and interests that he has in | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
this matter and bringing this matter to the House. I can confirm that we | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
remain resolute in working towards ACC ocean of hostilities and working | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
with the United Nations supporting the UN envoy. I agree with him that | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
we will not win this by military means alone. We need a long-term | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
political solution to a country that has been fragmented, as he knows, | :53:47. | :53:54. | |
even going back to its start. We should take a lead on this matter as | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
well as being a permanent member of the United Nations as well. | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
Humanitarian access is vital. I made it very clear that we are investing | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
more funds to make sure we can support the UN agencies and others. | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
A resolution that he touches on a still being discussed in New York as | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
we speak and the meeting that will take these matters further is coming | :54:19. | :54:25. | |
up very soon. He compares Yemen and the conflict in Syria. I make it | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
clear that support for the president has the backing of the United | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
Nations to the resolution. There is a legitimate call for supporting the | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
president and the work he has done. Had that not come for, they would | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
have pushed much further down through the capital, and the braids | :54:49. | :54:57. | |
have had a full-scale civil war. In contrast to rush out there is no UN | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
resolution to support their involvement and they are supporting | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
a brutal regime that has used chemical weapons on its own people | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
and has compounded the situation. The two cannot be compared. Britain | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
remains resolute to support the president and the United Nations and | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
the envoy in bringing the necessary stakeholders back to the table and I | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
hope we will be seeing some development in the near future. I | :55:26. | :55:35. | |
have just come down from the joint Committee on the national security | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
strategy. Can I ask my honourable friend not only to work to get a | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
ceasefire between the competing parties at the top level but also to | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
make sure that the work of the International agencies is engaged | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
with the subsidiary interests in Yemen, and nation of enormous | :55:57. | :56:03. | |
complexity. Where we don't just solve the political issues at the | :56:04. | :56:06. | |
top level and ignore the consequences that may flow at a | :56:07. | :56:13. | |
regional or local level. My honourable friend is right to point | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
out the complexities of Yemen and what is going on there. On the face | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
of it there are diffuse these against President Hardy. But those | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
who know the country understand it is a complex country with tribal | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
people who are not supportive of any side and loyalties moved depending | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
on funds, weapons and interest. It is complicated. The Right Honourable | :56:39. | :56:44. | |
Gentleman who raises this question spoke of an attack that took place | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
at the weekend. Reports are suggesting it was Daesh who are | :56:48. | :56:59. | |
responsible for this. Daesh are taking advantage of the vacuum of | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
governments and that is all the more reason why we are encouraging the | :57:04. | :57:09. | |
organisations to come to the table. My friend is right to say that | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
coordination of humanitarian aid is needed. The port is currently under | :57:13. | :57:20. | |
his take control. There are ships queuing up with humanitarian aids | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
that cannot get in to provide that the rest of the country. Let me | :57:26. | :57:35. | |
start by thanking my right honourable friend for securing this | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
urgent question. The authority and passion that he brings to the issue | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
of Yemen is without equal in this House and for the last half year he | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
has been consistent with his advice. We should also be clear that the | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
difference that we have heard this week from the Government could not | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
be more stark. In Yemen there is no consistency or principle. Last | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
Thursday we heard the Foreign Secretary said that Saudi Arabia was | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
fighting proxy wars in countries like Yemen. Thousands of civilians | :58:06. | :58:13. | |
have been killed, the country's agriculture and infrastructure has | :58:14. | :58:15. | |
been destroyed and millions are facing starvation. The Foreign | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
Secretary was right. We say, good for you, Boris. But he has still | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
been slapped down by Downing Street and forced to go to Riyadh to | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
clarify his remarks and his junior ministers here today to support | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
Saudi Arabia. He will not support our calls for an independent UN | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
investigation into Saudi Arabia and he will continue selling them arms | :58:43. | :58:48. | |
to prosecute its proxy wars. There is no consistency or principle, that | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
is just more hypocrisy. There are many questions I would like to ask | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
today but let me just ask one and it is the same that has been acid of | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
him by the member of Leicester East to did not get an answer. For two | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
months the UN Security Council has been waiting for the United Kingdom | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
to present its resolution to enact a ceasefire in Yemen, to allow | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
humanitarian access. For two months a draft resolution has been in | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
circulation, so let me have came again, why has the resolution not | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
been presented and who is moving it up, because the people of Yemen | :59:28. | :59:35. | |
cannot afford any more delay. I am not sure where to start with that. I | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
will focus on the questions that she poses rather than the political | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
point scoring that she tries to get involved in these things. I take | :59:48. | :59:53. | |
less and less from the point is that she makes. She is regurgitating | :59:54. | :59:59. | |
because she has ran out of questions so she's bringing up questions from | :00:00. | :00:04. | |
last week rather than focusing on what is needed today. I will answer | :00:05. | :00:14. | |
all her questions. The Foreign Secretary made it clear, if she read | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
the full passage of what he said, there are concerns about the | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
leadership that is needed in places like Syria and Yemen that needs to | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
be pushed forward. They need strong leadership in those places. As I | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
said to the Right Honourable Gentleman, a resolution is being | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
discussed, but if she is aware of the details of how these are put | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
together, we do not do them as a paper exercise but because the work | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
has been done to make sure it can stand. If the home-workers are done | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
to make sure that the stakeholders are supportive of the resolution, | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
what is the point of having the resolution other than to pat | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
ourselves on the back and make herself look good. That is not good | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
enough for this Government but it is not good enough. She also has not | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
mentioned the challenges that we face with the people there | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
themselves. It has been a difficult campaign for the coalition and they | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
have been new in conducting sustained warfare. They have had to | :01:19. | :01:24. | |
learn some difficult lessons. But I make it clear that they are causing | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
problems in this country and that needs to be knowledge by this House. | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
They have committed killings, unlawful arrests, inductions, and | :01:37. | :01:44. | |
they have been shelling civilians they have also use landmines. This | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
has prolonged the conflict and has brought to the table. All sides need | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
to work with the United Nations to make sure that we can get the | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
necessary ceasefire in place that will lead us to a UN resolution. To | :01:59. | :02:09. | |
what extent is intransigence on the behalf of the president block to the | :02:10. | :02:17. | |
ceasefire? The Speaker is the legitimate leader of the country at | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
the moment and we have to work with the stakeholder he is representing | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
to make sure that the road map is compatible with the needs and | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
support of the people he represents. This is why be of had long | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
discussions with him and the vice president to make sure we can bring | :02:33. | :02:36. | |
them to the table. If I could take this as an opportunity to say thank | :02:37. | :02:42. | |
you to the people of the man who had brought the local people/ can accept | :02:43. | :02:45. | |
a long-term deal to take us away from military action towards | :02:46. | :02:56. | |
political dialogue. It is regrettable that the humanitarian | :02:57. | :02:58. | |
situation has got so bad there is had to be in an appeal, but we hope | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
that it will be supported to the people of Yemen than one out of food | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
in the coming months. What will the Government be doing to coordinate | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
with responders on the ground for humanitarian response and what steps | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
is taking to make sure that the humanitarian response is not | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
undermined by its continued latter fear attitude to the behaviour of | :03:19. | :03:26. | |
Saudi Arabia. While we keep hearing that UK officials are not directing | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
operations, it makes us wonder what they are doing on the ground to make | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
sure that humanitarian laws respected. We hear a lot about the | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
positive relationship with Saudi Arabia, but what good is that | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
relationship if the Government will not use its influence to prevent the | :03:45. | :03:47. | |
killing and starvation of innocent civilians. I will start with the | :03:48. | :03:55. | |
last point he made. I will be happy to present him with speeches that | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
confirm not only our relationship with a close a Saudi Arabia, but | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
frank conversations we have of them and the work we do in stopping | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
terrorist attacks that take place, so he becomes familiar as to why | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
this relationship is important. If we broke that relationship then the | :04:15. | :04:23. | |
Gulf, the region and the UK could become more dangerous and I do not | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
think that is something he would advocate. He speaks about the war | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
itself and he been consistent on this point in the Chamber. He has | :04:33. | :04:39. | |
concerns and I share them. I should have responded on the call for an | :04:40. | :04:45. | |
independent investigation into the incidents that have taken place but | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
I have made it very clear that I support this call for a UN | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
investigation if it is deemed that the reports... If you can let me | :04:54. | :05:01. | |
finish the point... The reports that are coming forward, which is how any | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
country operates, those reports are not worthy then we will call for | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
independent inquiry. The process we follow and the United States follows | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
is that the conduct their investigations. If the | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
investigations are found wanting and I will support the United Nations in | :05:24. | :05:33. | |
more investigations. Could I my honourable friend what chance he | :05:34. | :05:40. | |
would give the president is Saudi Arabia was to withdraw from its | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
engagement, proper engagement under UN resolutions, and Yemen? My | :05:46. | :05:55. | |
honourable friend is right in replying that was the president not | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
to receive the support they UN Security Council that the country | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
would be in Civil War, a breakdown in governance would incubate | :06:07. | :06:15. | |
organisations like Daesh and Al-Qaeda and that would spell out | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
the on the peninsula into the region. That is not something we | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
would want to contest and it is right that the coalition was formed | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
and that is why we support it. However we share the concerns raised | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
in this House that the conduct of the ward is to be carefully | :06:34. | :06:43. | |
scrutinised. On Saturday Liverpool friends of Yemen held a meeting in | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
solidarity with the people of Yemen. We were speaking to people from | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
Yemen and Liverpool and they fear for the likes of the people back | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
home. This is a country on the edge of famine. I urge the Government to | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
do everything that we can as a country to relieve the humanitarian | :07:03. | :07:07. | |
crisis in Yemen. I said to the Minister on the independent inquiry, | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
when will we support an independent UN inquiry into alleged violations | :07:14. | :07:14. | |
on both sides of this conflict? We will not support an independent | :07:15. | :07:23. | |
report until we allow the sowedians to do their reports. That's the | :07:24. | :07:30. | |
process we face -- Saudi Arabians. They are having to learn themselves. | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
As we know, this is a conservative country, unused to the limelight | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
that they are thrown into. They must act responsibly and respectfully and | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
transparently as we would in the same situation W regard to the | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
humanitarian aid. He is absolutely right. This country and House can be | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
proud of the work that we're doing, not just here but right across the | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
piece. He's right to say our minister and the Secretary of State | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
for Dyfid is engaged with this. At the UN general Assembly in September | :08:04. | :08:08. | |
it is us who held a donor's conference to encourage other | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
countries to match our funding to provide the support to the people of | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
Yemen. It isn't a lack of funds that is the problem here. It's not a lack | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
of the equipment, as a lack of peace. It's a lack of access | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
particularly through the central port in the Red Sea. Charity | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
agencies report that it's difficult to get into Yemen. Once in Yemen, | :08:33. | :08:38. | |
getting aid out, because of the bureaucratic challenges, arrests of | :08:39. | :08:41. | |
charity workers, suspension prove Graemes and difficulties in | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
obtaining new programmes. Will my honourable friend bring this up | :08:45. | :08:47. | |
directly with all parties in the conflict as it's the charity sector | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
doing much of the delivery and they should be allowed to have rapid and | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
unimpeded humanitarian access throughout the country. | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
I think this is the point that everybody's more concerned about | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
than most. Whilst it can take time for the both parties to come to the | :09:05. | :09:07. | |
table and work out the details, there is a sense of urgency to make | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
sure that the aid can get in as early as possible. That will be the | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
focus of the next quad meeting. So, yes, we want parties to come | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
together. But we immediately need access routes, we need the ports to | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
be opened fully so that container ships can come in and the equipment | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
can be distributed across the country and not through the port of | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
Aidan, the current direction through which this material comes in. The | :09:32. | :09:40. | |
Foreign Secretary is encurbinging transparency and honesty in foreign | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
affairs policy, does the minister accept that signing up to the | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
convention on cluster munitions the UK is taking a stance that cluster | :09:46. | :09:55. | |
mew niegss is always in - therefore the use of them is legitimate as the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
minister does is completely contradictory and in violation of | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
the convention that the UK always encourages Saudi Arabia not to use | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
them. Why are the UK Government adopting this position? To make it | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
clear, that it's only against international law if you've signed | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
the convention. There are countries across the world that have yet to | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
sign the convention. We have signed the convention. It's our policy to | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
encourage others to sign the convention. I have a meeting last | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
Sunday with all the foreign ministers of the GCC nations. I | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
invited every single one of the GCC nations, all the Gulf countries to | :10:33. | :10:38. | |
say please consider signing this convention. I hope we'll be able to | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
move forward on this. I welcome the fact that the UK's | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
humanitarian commitment to Yemen to 85 million. Will my right honourable | :10:50. | :10:54. | |
friend confirm whether he believes that the UN general Assembly can be | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
of more help in actively resolving this situation? I think if I | :10:59. | :11:08. | |
understand her question correctly, whether the General Assembly is the | :11:09. | :11:11. | |
UN Security Council, in which case where there isn't a veto. In this | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
arena there isn't so much the challenge we face from permanent | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
members in order to get a UN Resolution through. The important | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
thing is if we draft a UN Resolution, it needs to work, | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
otherwise a paper exercise. That's is the home work that our head of | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
mission is currently doing with other nations to make sure what we | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
write on paper will lead to the cessation of hostilities, it will | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
lead to access to humanitarian aid. These are important otherwise the UN | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
Security Council resolution is not worth writing. What representations | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
has Her Majesty's Government made to the Iranian government to stop the | :11:52. | :11:58. | |
flow of arms to the Houthis? And what representations have been made | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
to facilitate with the Iranians the opening of the port is desperate aid | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
can get through to the Yemenis that are suffering in this Civil War? Mr | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
Speaker, the honourable gentleman raises a very important point - what | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
is Iran's involvement in Yemen? Is it helpful or hindering events? The | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
Prime Minister made this very clear, that Iran can play a constructive | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
role in making sure weapons systems are not entering the country itself | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
and making sure that the Houthis are encouraged to come to the table and | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
making sure that the Red Sea has an absence of ships for those who want | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
to arm the Houthis. We are asking Iran to recognise this. | :12:41. | :12:49. | |
There is no doubt that this is a war of prommies in Yemen. The Foreign | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
Secretary is absolutely right to make the crate Essex of Saudi Arabia | :12:54. | :13:02. | |
that he D until the last question I've just ---er make the criticism | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
of Saudi Arabia that he did. If we have not agreed to the nuclear deal, | :13:07. | :13:11. | |
the billions of pounds of resources would not be able to go into this | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
conflict and indeed in conflicts in Syria and in Lebanon and other parts | :13:16. | :13:22. | |
of the Middle East. Mr Speaker, the signing of the joint comprehensive | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
action plan is an opportunity for Iran to take a more responsible role | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
on the international stage. We know that it has an influence in places | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
from Baghdad to da mass cut, to Beirut and to Senna as well. We want | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
it to step forward and recognise that it is in the region's interest | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
to be more secure and more prosperous. To rejoin the | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
international community and not continue in its negative way to | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
hinder the process of peace right across the region. What is | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
particularly pernicious about the use of cluster munitions is that | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
many of the bomblets lie around for a long time and effectively create a | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
minefield, where many thousands of innocent civilians and children get | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
killed. That's why I'm slightly confused by the Government's | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
position. The minister is still sitting here, but in defence | :14:16. | :14:18. | |
questions said earlier this matter has been raised with the Saudis. But | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
there is the implication now that the Government doesn't oppose the | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
Saudis' use of cluster munitions. Surely we are opposed and he's happy | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
to condemn it from the dispatch box? I think he's trying to put words in | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
my mouth. I made it very clear that it is our policy, wherever cluster | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
munitions are used across the world that we'd discourage anybody from | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
using them, to sign up to the convention. I think I said in my | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
answer that I condemn the use of cluster munitions. As he says, they | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
are legacy that lay around on the battlefield long beyond when the | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
battlefield turns into a civilian arena. That's why they cause damage. | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
That's why we've signed it. That's why I invited all the GCC nations to | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
support signing this important convention that we've signed | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
ourselves. I know my right honourable friend | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
has already said we've got issues with tribal agreement. But what | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
measures has my right honourable friend taken to engage with all | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
relevant parties in the region to test the robustness of that very | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
framework? It isn't just Yemen that we need to have a more collective | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
approach to make sure that there is the support to support the stake | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
holders coming to the stable and in the stabilisation as well. That | :15:36. | :15:38. | |
applies to Iraq, Yemen, Syria as well. That's where the Gulf nations | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
have a responsible not just to support legitimate governments but | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
to take an interest, a commitment to the disablisation and post conflict | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
planning in the aftermath of when the guns fall silent. The first | :15:57. | :16:03. | |
thousand days a child's life is vital for their lifelong | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
development. This awful conflict ensures that not only are they not | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
having their basic human rights met now, but Yemeni children don't have | :16:12. | :16:13. | |
a chance even when the conflict ends. What is the Government doing | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
to ensure Yemeni children have access to varietial nutritious food | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
for the duration of this conflict? ? Mr Speaker, she's absolutely right. | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
This is the travesty of the length of this conflict is denying a | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
generation not just in health but also in education as well. They need | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
to rebuild the country in the longer term. That's why my honourable | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
friend has confirmed we are working with UNICEF to make sure that we can | :16:47. | :16:50. | |
provide the necessary nutritional meals to support those infants in | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
those important years, in the first thousand days of their lives. | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
May I congratulate the right honourable member who asked the | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
urgent question. I would think, Sir, that the whole House would recognise | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
that almost single handedly he's kept the issue of Yemen before this | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
House. May I say to the Shadow minister, it wasn't the right to | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
make party political points on Yemen. Can I ask the excellent | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
minister who has a lot of knowledge on this issue, am I right in | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
thinking the problem with humanitarian aid is not the amount, | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
the money for it, it's the fact that we can't get it through? And if that | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
is the case, how can we try and open that plockage? I'm grateful for my | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
honourable friend's comments. He is right to point to the difficulties | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
in getting access to the areas. There are a series of check points | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
on roads, which means that humanitarian aid is denied. There | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
are NGOs and commercial organisations as well, not | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
forgetting those who have in some cases access. Some of the aid is | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
taken away. Some of the aid is removed as a pun eshment or penalty | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
or as a -- punishment or penalty or as a cost of the getting into the | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
country itself. The absence of the port running properly, the cranes | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
themselves are not working. There's not a single crane of the old cranes | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
that are working there, get these working and we are able to suddenly | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
tenfold increase the aid that can get into the country. | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
THE SPEAKER: Point of order on cluster munitions. Yes, I'll take it | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
now. Not on musicians, no. Sorry if I misspoke, on cluster munitions, | :18:33. | :18:39. | |
that's what Sir Jack Straw would have called the gravamen of his | :18:40. | :18:42. | |
concern. Let's hear it. Mr Speaker, you will have heard just a couple of | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
minutes ago the minister saying that the Government are against cluster | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
munitions. I have in front of me a letter from the minister dated | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
November 3, 2016, in which he states on the subject, you UK maintains the | :18:55. | :19:01. | |
view that cluster mew snigss are not prima-facie illegal and can be used | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
in compliance with international law by states not party to the | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
convention, if they are used with the manner compliant with IHL and | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
the obligation to take all feasible precautions. I'm confused. The | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
minister says the Government are completely oppose and here the | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
minister sets out a view that in some circumstances they are | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
legitimate and acceptable to use. THE SPEAKER: If what he wants is | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
personal reassurance I suggest that his appropriate recourse is to sidle | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
up to the junior minister and ask to have a cup of tea with him. If he's | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
concerned for the benefit of the House as a whole, if he wants | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
something formally on the record, I don't think the honourable gentleman | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
particularly needs my advice, but I proffer it any way. He should table | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
a written question on this sub-Stan Tiff point upon which he requires | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
clarification, and I think he will probably find his salvation coming | :19:58. | :20:05. | |
pretty soon. Helpful nod from a sedentary position from the minister | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
confirms that my expectation is correct. If there are no further | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
points of order, I shall call the - oh, I do beg the honourable lady's | :20:15. | :20:19. | |
pardon. Patience is a virtue. I thank her for waiting. Point of | :20:20. | :20:25. | |
order. Yesterday afternoon in my constituency I attended a Christmas | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
fair where a 76-year-old man with diabetes fell and broke his | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
shoulder. He had to wait almost two hours for an ambulance. When I spoke | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
to the emergency services, they said they were re-triaging as they were | :20:38. | :20:42. | |
currently experiencing high delays with 162 calls across London, | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
currently unattended awaiting ambulances and Mr Speaker, that it | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
had been worse. Latest figures seem to show that not one ambulance trust | :20:51. | :20:53. | |
in the country met targets in October. Perhaps Mr Speaker, you | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
could tell me whether you've received any advance notice or | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
indication of the intention of the minister to make a statement to this | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
House on ambulance delays on and on the Government's plans to address | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
NHS capacity issues as we near the Christmas period? | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
THE SPEAKER: From memory, and I apologise if I'm incorrect, but I | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
don't think I am, there are questions to the Secretary of State | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
for Health before we rise for the Christmas recess. That is extremely | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
fortuitous as far as the honourable lady is concerned. I predict with | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
complete confidence that the honourable lady will be in her place | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
on that occasion, bobbing with the required intensity to be called to | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
put this matter to a relevant minister. If she does, so I don't | :21:44. | :21:48. | |
think it's the revelation of a state secret to say that she's likely to | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
be successful. I hope that's helpful in relation to | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
what is an extremely serious matter. Order. In a moment I shall call the | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
right honourable gentleman the member for Sutton Coldfield to make | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
an application for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
matter that should have urgent consideration under the terms of | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
standing order number 24, the right honourable gentleman who has some | :22:17. | :22:19. | |
experience in these matters will know that he has up to three minutes | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
in which to make such an application. I call Mr Andrew | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
Mitchell I was proposed a motion to evacuate | :22:28. | :22:54. | |
nursing staff from Aleppo. At least 100 children as well who have been | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
winded and are receiving rudimentary care. Also thousands of civilians to | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
a cop between the different fighting groups in a 10-10 enclave where most | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
of the traps are. I make no apology to the House for raising this vital | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
issue again. He granted a debate on these matters two months ago and on | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
that occasion the Foreign Secretary made his first major speech and | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
explained the horror so many feel about what is happening in Syria and | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
Aleppo. I am sure if you grant this emergency debate the whole House | :23:31. | :23:32. | |
will like to hear an update from the Foreign Secretary who has already | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
shown his deep and principal concern about what is taking place. The | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
debate will enable us to explore with the Government how Britain's | :23:44. | :23:48. | |
amends diplomatic muscle, the finest foreign service in the world, can do | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
more to secure a deal that will ensure the ceasefire for 24 hours to | :23:52. | :23:57. | |
enable innocent civilians to be rescued from the hideous | :23:58. | :23:59. | |
circumstances which now prevail in East Aleppo. Britain to kill it some | :24:00. | :24:07. | |
years ago at the United Nations and developing the international | :24:08. | :24:09. | |
community 's responsibility to protect. We said after Wanda that | :24:10. | :24:17. | |
never again it would happen, but it is happening as they meet today. | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
There are forces accompanied by photographs with the use of sarin by | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
the regime, and nerve gas, and a chlorine bomb, the second | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
intermediaries, that hit a medical point. There is no mistake from | :24:33. | :24:40. | |
civilian bonds as the civilians have to come out. The use of chlorine | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
emissions is a war crime. Many civilians trapped in this hellhole | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
which looks like Stalingrad are children. They have few places to | :24:55. | :25:03. | |
hide. Tomorrow night it will be -4 degrees and Aleppo. As we secure a | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
warm and secure Christmas in Britain, I hope that you agree that | :25:09. | :25:18. | |
something must be done. And what we will do to save those who are in | :25:19. | :25:27. | |
such dreadful jeopardy. The Right Honourable Gentleman asks leaves | :25:28. | :25:35. | |
schoolbag leave for a debate about international action to prevent | :25:36. | :25:42. | |
civilians Aleppo and across Syria. Listen carefully to the application | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
and I am satisfied that the matter raised by him is proper to be | :25:46. | :25:56. | |
discussed understanding order 24. Does he have believe the House? Aye. | :25:57. | :26:09. | |
He has obtained the leave of the House and a debate will be held | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
tomorrow on Tuesday the 13th of December as the first item of | :26:14. | :26:25. | |
business. Can I remind the House that there is other important | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
scheduled business to follow. There is flexibility and discretion with | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
the chair in terms of the timing of such debates. I have decided that | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
the debate will last for two hours and will arise on a motion that the | :26:40. | :26:43. | |
House has considered the specified matter set out in the gentleman's | :26:44. | :26:51. | |
application. I hope that is helpful to the House. Thank you. | :26:52. | :27:02. | |
I am hinting to the House that if lots of members showing up to date | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
there is no reason they should not be called up to speak, but the | :27:10. | :27:14. | |
emphasis will be on hearing from several people, pithy speeches. | :27:15. | :27:29. | |
Point of order. On a different matter, today marks precisely 150 | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
years since an explosion at the colliery killed 383 miners. Some of | :27:35. | :27:43. | |
the victims were under 14 and the youngest were only ten years old. | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
Could ICQ guidance on how best to ensure that this House commemorates | :27:50. | :27:51. | |
the service and sacrifice of those who lost their lives in the colliery | :27:52. | :27:56. | |
disaster hundred and 50 years ago today. Cancer is as follows. I think | :27:57. | :28:09. | |
he has gone some distance towards achieving that recognition and | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
commemoration by virtue of his ingenious use of the device of the | :28:13. | :28:25. | |
point of order. He made table an early day motion and I do not think | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
you will find it difficult to find colleagues who are willing to take | :28:29. | :28:36. | |
part. If he is still not satisfied it is always open to him to seek an | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
adjournment for a debate with the matter can be more fully marked. I | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
think that is also helpful to the Honourable Gentleman. Perhaps we can | :28:47. | :28:52. | |
now proceed to the main public business. | :28:53. | :29:06. | |
We begin with clause one with which it will be convenient to consider | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
the other new clauses and amendments grouped together on the selection | :29:14. | :29:21. | |
paper. To move the cars I call Mr Gareth Thomas. I am grateful for it | :29:22. | :29:28. | |
you for the opportunity to move these amendments. I should declare | :29:29. | :29:35. | |
an interest as a member of the credit union and is chair of the | :29:36. | :29:45. | |
1-party group for mutuals. We want to give a statutory right to anyone | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
wanting to save in a credit union they are a payroll deduction. The | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
amendment seeks to reduce the pressure on those who are just about | :29:57. | :30:02. | |
managing. This will better incentivise saving under the scheme. | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
Another amendments which I want to talk about first seeks to allow | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
credit unions to offer help to save. I took part in the second reading | :30:16. | :30:25. | |
debate and raised the concern that trade unions were not going to be | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
allowed to offer the help to save product. I have read through the | :30:30. | :30:36. | |
transcript of that debates and the transcript of the Committee | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
proceedings. I can still see no good reason for the Government's | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
resistance to 11 credit unions to offer the help to save scheme. I | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
recognise that ministers want to ensure national coverage of help to | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
save, so that everyone who meets the criteria, potentially the .5 million | :31:00. | :31:05. | |
people across the UK, regardless of where they live, can access the | :31:06. | :31:12. | |
scheme. That makes sense. I have no objection to the choice of national | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
savings or investment as that national provider of choice. What I | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
cannot see is any valid reason to buy credit unions cannot be allowed | :31:27. | :31:37. | |
to complimentary NSI offer. I thank my friends are giving way and can I | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
also declare an interest as a member of the credit union. Does he agree | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
that Government needs to be more ambitious when it comes to credit | :31:47. | :31:49. | |
unions playing a full part in financial services in this country | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
and we need to be heading towards places like Canada where we see a | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
more developed credit union sector. The honourable friend makes an | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
important point. We need much more ambition for our financial mutuals | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
and cooperatives more generally and I'm grateful to him for that | :32:11. | :32:18. | |
intervention. Ministers claims at a Committee that a multiple provider | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
model for the service would not offer value for money. As far as I | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
can see they have provided no costings to justify that claim. It | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
is not as if ministers are dealing in the case of NSI with a company | :32:34. | :32:43. | |
demanding conditions because they are threatened by the credit unions. | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
They are a state-owned bank, effectively, and they are | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
responsible to the Treasury. The Minister responsible as the member | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
for Brighton who is also the Minister responsible for the policy | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
on credit unions. NSI have 25 million customers and 135 early in | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
pounds in assets. By comparison, credit unions across the UK have one | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
point the ?7 billion and less than 1% of the value of NSI investments. | :33:16. | :33:23. | |
In short credit unions are no threat to NSI. It is under the control of | :33:24. | :33:29. | |
the Treasury and it is administered's hands, or it wasn't | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
all the start of this has's proceedings on this issue, now it is | :33:35. | :33:39. | |
the House's opportunity to decide whether or not credit union should | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
be allowed to offer the help to save scheme going forward from this. Does | :33:43. | :33:58. | |
he agree with me that 11 such diversity is important for helping | :33:59. | :34:05. | |
change behaviour and a lot about savings is about cultural attitudes | :34:06. | :34:08. | |
and having ways that you can reach out to communities. My honourable | :34:09. | :34:17. | |
friend makes a good point and I hope to come to a little more to that | :34:18. | :34:27. | |
point in due course. She is right to say and to make the point that | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
credit units potentially have the scope to reach out to more of that | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
the .5 million people that ministers want to help to the help to save | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
scheme, which NSI and I may not be best placed to help going forward. | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
They are not for profit financial cooperatives, they are owned and | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
controlled by their members. There are more uniquely exposed to the | :34:52. | :34:58. | |
financial services markets and are used are offering financial services | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
to those who are often excluded from other better-known sources of | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
finance. They provide safe savings and affordable loans and offer other | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
products by current accounts and I service and mortgages. Is it not | :35:12. | :35:21. | |
true that the key to this is also that credit unions can provide | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
loans. We know that low income families have more bumps on the road | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
than the majority of people with higher incomes. Therefore that | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
ability along with the ability to keep savings is really important. | :35:34. | :35:40. | |
She steals one of my lines from later my remarks as she makes an | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
entirely appropriate point that credit unions can offer both the | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
opportunity to get access to affordable loans but at the same | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
time still encourage people to save going forward. When the loan is paid | :35:55. | :36:00. | |
off, that incentive to keep saving is very much still there. Credit | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
unions have until now enjoyed support from both sides of the | :36:07. | :36:15. | |
House. The growth in 2000 and launched by Ed Balls, saw over | :36:16. | :36:24. | |
400,000 affordable loans offered and its disappearance between 120 ?125 | :36:25. | :36:29. | |
million in interest that otherwise would have been made to high costs | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
lenders. It is that kind of success that shows ministers in the last | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
Government, led by the lady for Broxton, agreed to allow three | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
credit unions to offer a credit union services for our soldiers, | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
airmen and their families and to offer an Armed Forces credit union. | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
Given the last Government's funding to expand credit unions, it seems | :36:58. | :37:03. | |
even more strange that tonight ministers should want to continue to | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
exclude credit unions from offering a product into a market which they | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
already have significant interest and penetration into. Credit unions | :37:13. | :37:22. | |
require those borrowing money from them to save along side as they | :37:23. | :37:28. | |
repay their loans. Those who have been borrowing from a credit union | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
have their own Potter savings which in some cases they have never had | :37:33. | :37:39. | |
before. -- own pot of savings. Members continue to save over a far | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
longer period after they have overcome the initial budget | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
difficulties which has prevented them from getting into saving in the | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
first place. Credit unions will also help people save towards a | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
particular short-term goal. The idea of a rainy day fund, which was | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
topped about by a number of members of the second reading is often not | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
tangible enough to make it a savings habit, while saving for Christmas or | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
to go on holiday or to buy a particular goods or access a | :38:12. | :38:15. | |
particular service is. The available evidence suggests that the people | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
are more likely to save towards a defined goal. They demonstrate this | :38:23. | :38:29. | |
and from there more savings take place. This is, I am told, visit | :38:30. | :38:37. | |
behavioural economics. Other advances include the fact that NSI | :38:38. | :38:43. | |
are not a particular familiar organisation for many low and middle | :38:44. | :38:50. | |
income earners. Their offer seems in personal and remote and there is | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
little face-to-face contact or obvious customer support. It is | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
difficult to think that many of the target audience are going to be | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
particularly inspired by such an offer, while the credit union, | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
trusted by friends and family, able to divide face-to-face support, that | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
maybe the difference was sombre to saving up and saving or not. Credit | :39:12. | :39:17. | |
unions should be supported by this to offer help to save and that would | :39:18. | :39:20. | |
be a boost to the ability of credit unions themselves to grow. It would | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
further raise public awareness and potentially introduce credit unions | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
to any group of savers, which given credit unions lack of advertising | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
and firepower, compared to financial services like the banks, can only be | :39:39. | :39:45. | |
helpful for the Government's claim of creating a more diverse banking | :39:46. | :39:47. | |
market. New clause one locks into law the | :39:48. | :39:55. | |
right of anyone to join a credit union to request payroll deduction. | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
Where savings is in, when savings is in the interest of the individual | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
and the country at large, why shouldn't we expect business and | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
employers to help a little by making it as easy as possible for people | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
who want to save. One way some choose to save is by having an | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
amount of money they decide deducted automatically from their pay packet | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
by their employer. It's a process that they can stop immediately and | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
it's known as payroll deduction. Yet at the moment, whether or not | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
payroll deduction is allowed or not is entirely in the gift of the | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
employer. The best employers have no problem with it. Often they will | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
reach agreement with local credit unions or credit unions who operate | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
in the industry and once they have done so, payroll deduction is | :40:44. | :40:49. | |
offered by the company's back officement the Ministry of Defence | :40:50. | :40:56. | |
granted the facility of payroll deduction to three credit unions, | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
who are now offering this service to service personnel and in so doing | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
help to save them huge amounts of interest, ?1 million worth of | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
affordable credit is already being offered to military personnel. It's | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
been pointed out to me that the Department for Work and Pensions are | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
the latest Whitehall department to offer payroll deduction for credit | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
union services to their staff. Again, they've chosen three | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
particular credit unions to work with. Already those staff who work | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
for the DWP, a number of them have benefitted to the tune of several | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
hundred thousand pounds worth after Fordable loans. Most police forces | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
offer payroll deduction for credit union members. Many departments, | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
many other departments in Whitehall also offer this facility. Much of | :41:52. | :41:56. | |
the NHS offers this facility. And hospitals and NHS trusts and other | :41:57. | :41:59. | |
parts of Government are quite right to do so. Some unfortunately | :42:00. | :42:04. | |
outsource payroll companies try to exploit the terms of their contract | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
and demand a fee for agreeing to offer such a service to an employer. | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
It takes a tiny amount of time to sort out, yet some employers will | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
not do the right thing to help their employees save in the way that best | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
suits them. The worst offender that I know of currently is Transport for | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
London, who employ almost 28,000 staff. It claims there is no demand | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
for credit union access and that they offer generous emergency | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
assistance if staff get into problems. And that it would be | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
costly to offer payroll deduction. They certainly say they don't want | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
to get into the picking or not picking of which credit unions to | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
work with. I struggle to see why tfl is different to the Ministry of | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
Defence. There weren't thousands of soldiers queuing to join a credit | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
union either. It cost the MoD, whose payroll is outsourced, a fee. | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
Ironically I'm told the particular payroll company offers payroll | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
deduction to its own staff. The offer important as it is, I do think | :43:11. | :43:18. | |
from TfL is a red herring. This is about making it easy for an employer | :43:19. | :43:27. | |
to save on an ongoing basis with a reputable credit union. If the MoD | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
can work out which credit unions to work with it shouldn't be beyond the | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
wit of Transport for London to do so as well. I hope Transport for London | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
will change its mind. We are having discussions with them, Mr Speaker, | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
and I hope they will come to see sense in the end. I think it has a | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
spont to do so. But I do think Government should cut through the | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
nonsense and legislate to allow the employee the right to request | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
payroll deduction up front to join a credit union. If saving is both in | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
the individual interest and in the national interest, then we should | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
seek to make it as easy as possible for payroll deduction to join a | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
credit union to be offered. Lastly in this group of amendments that is | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
under my name is amendment one, which lowers the qualifying period | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
of the help to save product before the Government top up begins from 24 | :44:17. | :44:29. | |
- -- months to 12. I simply draw the House's attention to the evidence | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
that step change, the debt advice charity put in suggesting that 24 | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
months as simply too long a period to ensure that the Government's | :44:41. | :44:42. | |
objective of incentivising more objective of incentivising more | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
savings were made. I look forward to shearing the views of other members | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
of the House. I hope ministers will, in particular, reflect on the case | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
that I have made for amendment two, because if they're not willing to | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
shift on, it I would seek your leave to divide the House on that | :45:03. | :45:03. | |
question. THE SPEAKER: New clause one. The | :45:04. | :45:20. | |
question is that new clause one be read a second time. Thank you Mr | :45:21. | :45:29. | |
Speaker. It will come as no surprise to many people in this House that | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
I'm here tonight in full support of my party colleagues on this matter | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
and in full support of the vital importance of supporting our credit | :45:41. | :45:43. | |
unions because of the debt tsunami that is coming our way as a country. | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
Some people here may think this is one of my greatest hits to talk | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
about personal debt in this country and the scourge of the high cost | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
lenders, always the credit unions were part of the answer. I rise to | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
support amendment two on that basis tonight, because it is absolutely | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
critical with that debt tsunami coming towards us as a nation that | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
we act to support the credit union movement, as a vital component of | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
helping people. We know that for too many people in our nation now, debt | :46:14. | :46:18. | |
is a part of life. There is just simply too much month for their | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
money. That has been the case for many years. Those problems are | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
becoming endemic, to such a level that people don't realise the level | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
of debt they may have. For others it is all too common. We know that two | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
out of five people in this country are very worried about their level | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
of personal debt. When we're talking about personal debt. We're talking | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
about unsecured personal debt. This is not people just worrying about | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
their mortgages. This is people worrying about the day-to-day cost | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
of everyday living. Indeed, for 54% of those people who are struggling | :46:50. | :46:54. | |
in this country, it's the cost of food that is the problem. It's | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
literally the cost of being able to put food on the table, not just keep | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
a roof above the heads of them and their families. For 30% of those | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
people, it's the cost of energy. It's the people who will look at the | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
weather forecast fearful as we see the temperature dropping knowing | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
that simply they cannot afford to put money in the metre to keep their | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
families warm. Increasingly in this country, it is the people who are in | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
debt because of their debt, the 22% of people who are struggling because | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
of credit card repayment debts. This is everyday Britain. This is the | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
kind of community and country that we have become, a country where debt | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
is so common place people are not just waving, they are drowning in | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
it. It is the spont of all of us to act not simply to help people with | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
debt advice, not simply to shrug our shoulders and see this as part and | :47:44. | :47:46. | |
parcel of the way our economy works. But to ask if there are things we | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
can do to help them manage those debts. That question, that debt | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
tsunami is only going to become worse as we head into #20 17 and I | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
think all of us recognise that inflation is likely to rise from 1%, | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
possibly up to 4%, some experts suggest. Those costs of food, those | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
costs of basic goods like energy are going to get higher not lower. Yet | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
we know for so many people their wages have been frozen for so many | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
years now that the gap between the end of the month and the start of | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
the month is going to feel a very, very long way away in 2017. That is | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
why we have to be pragmatic and pragmatic is about offering people | :48:27. | :48:28. | |
good options about how to manage what little money they have. That is | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
where the credit union movement in this country comes into its own. | :48:33. | :48:35. | |
That is why it's absolutely varietial when the Government wants | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
to encourage savings that it does not exclude but instead embraces the | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
credit union movement and the benefits it can offer. When we know | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
that a quarter of people in it country have no savings at all, | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
saying well, who is the movement whose door is always open to every | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
citizen in this country and how can we help them to bridge that gap, | :48:55. | :49:00. | |
means looking to the credit union movement. My colleague has made an | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
admirable case about how to help the movement and the work that they do. | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
I simply, at the risk of repeating myself, want to echo his words and | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
say we can do so much more. This scheme, involving credit unions is | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
the start not the end of that conversation. I know my own credit | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
union struggled for many years to get onto the High Street in | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
Walthamstow. What a difference that has made. My own credit union has | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
struggled to get in and work with people in the work places, but what | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
a difference it can make when we do that. We see councils around this | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
country working for example, like Southampton, to give people access | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
to a credit union and savers in return for helping those people who | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
would have been to a pay day lender to get the money there. Being able | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
to link communities together. It is absolutely crucial that we do not | :49:48. | :49:51. | |
just see credit unions about borrowing, but also about saving. | :49:52. | :49:54. | |
And about how then through that saving you can help and support | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
wider social objectives in a local community. That is why this owe | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
mission must be corrected. That is why we as Co-operative MPs have | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
stood here tonight to ask the Government to think about excludeing | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
credit unions from the help to save scheme and instead to embrace them. | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
I will join with my colleague tonight to say if we do not get | :50:16. | :50:17. | |
support from the Government to change this, we will be looking to | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
divide the House. We want to send a message. We know that people are | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
going to have to borrow. We know that when 2017 look as dire as it's | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
going to look with inflation rising and people's wages still stalling | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
and the cost of living still continuing to rise, that we have to | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
make sure that people have sensible borrowing options. We also know they | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
have to have sensible saving options. The credit union movement | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
is the solution to that question. It is the solution to asking about | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
people who maybe would have not gone anywhere else. If we can get them | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
into a credit union movement we can start getting them to save. This is | :50:52. | :50:56. | |
a critical time in the debt portfolio we see in this country. A | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
debt tsunami is heading our way, let's not turn our backs to it. | :51:01. | :51:03. | |
Let's be sensible about what we can do to help. Let's make credit unions | :51:04. | :51:12. | |
part of the solution. Thank you, Mr Speaker. To start off, | :51:13. | :51:16. | |
I'd like to thank my honourable friend the member for Harrow west, | :51:17. | :51:29. | |
who has been indefat Iingable in -- in de fatiguable with relation to | :51:30. | :51:35. | |
these issues. And no reasonable person could disagree with anything | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
articulated to us today by the honourable member in his usual, | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
cogent, coherent and reasonable way. He has the support of this bench and | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
many other honourable members in the chamber. In fact, he's in line with | :51:48. | :51:55. | |
organisations such as Step Change debt charity, whilst welcoming the | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
concept of help to save feel that the Government has not gone far | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
enough in its commitment to facilitating savings. Own one in | :52:03. | :52:05. | |
seven people eligible for the scheme are likely to take it up. And | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
supports the payroll deduction concept suggested by my honourable | :52:13. | :52:14. | |
friend. Mr Speaker, before I deal with the Opposition's clauses and | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
amendments to the savings and Government's contributions bill, I | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
would like to summarise our overall view. | :52:22. | :52:27. | |
While we fully support any measure that will encourage people to save, | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
particularly young people and those with lower incomes we feel that the | :52:34. | :52:40. | |
proposed lifetime ice will do little to encourage these groups. We have | :52:41. | :52:46. | |
heard a raft of evidence that will support this view. Many concerned | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
that this is just another product in an overcrowded market. The | :52:53. | :53:00. | |
opposition will not stand in the way of the bill but we want to make a | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
number of reasonable changes to ensure that the proposed ISA and | :53:04. | :53:10. | |
right to buy scheme do what they say they will. Those on low incomes | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
struggling to make it through the week have seen the government | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
drastically cut in work benefits. I therefore don't see how people with | :53:20. | :53:27. | |
the minimum threshold, particularly when report show half UK adults have | :53:28. | :53:34. | |
less than ?500 set aside for emergencies, some families will not | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
be able to save ?50 every month. That was raised by the SNP in the | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
bill committee. Moving to the impact review and auto enrolment. The wider | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
concern the opposition have is that this scheme will interfere and | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
perhaps negatively impact pension automatic enrolment. Does the | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
government really want to take a gamble that 6.7 million people | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
across 250,000 employers already auto enrolled will not reach the | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
government target of 10 million by 20 20. The new clause and amendment | :54:10. | :54:18. | |
are designed to address this question. Namely, the lifetime | :54:19. | :54:31. | |
Individual Savings Account poses a threat to traditional pension | :54:32. | :54:34. | |
savings and most significantly to auto enrolment. I believe that it is | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
self-evident that auto enrolment which was mandated by the last | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
Labour government is an outstanding initiative and starting to achieve | :54:46. | :54:53. | |
its aims. This proposal would impose a duty on HMRC to review annually | :54:54. | :55:00. | |
the impact on licenses of auto enrolment. This is one of the few | :55:01. | :55:07. | |
success stories in the pension landscape. We feel that the | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
government policy may put the wider landscape in jeopardy and be a | :55:15. | :55:18. | |
dangerous path to follow. Tensions are history suggest that will only | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
be recognised in years to come. That is why we would like to see an | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
annual review on the impact of the auto enrolment scheme to ensure that | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
the introduction of lifetime ISAs do not impact negatively on that | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
success. Not all employers will be auto enrolled until February 20 18. | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
The increase of minimum contributions to 8% will not be | :55:47. | :55:54. | |
until 2019. Dropout is relatively low among young people. In the | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
meantime, we don't want anything to jeopardise the maximum number of | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
people enrolling or to provide any incentive to drop out. This is not | :56:05. | :56:09. | |
an unreasonable position to take given the implications of getting | :56:10. | :56:13. | |
things wrong. That is why we are tabling the amendment that would | :56:14. | :56:16. | |
delay the commencement of the bill until the end of April 2019 when all | :56:17. | :56:24. | |
firms will be auto enrolled the increase in minimum contributions to | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
8% will be completed. The truth is, many people can't afford to pay both | :56:30. | :56:37. | |
into a pension and an ISA. Many can't do either. The pensions | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
committee has warned the government that quoting out of auto enrolment | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
to save in a lifetime ISA will leave people worse off. The DWP has been | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
clear that the ISA is not a pension product but the Treasury has | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
preferred an alternative view. Moving on to independent financial | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
advice. I would contend that if the government can't get its position on | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
my lifetime ISA clear, how can people in the street? It seems that | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
the benefits of this product is compared to pension plans is | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
relatively unclear when set in the context of the wider market. That's | :57:21. | :57:26. | |
why we are introducing a proposal to place a duty on the Secretary of | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
State to make regulations that ensure all applicants for a lifetime | :57:31. | :57:35. | |
ISA have independent financial advice made available to them. In | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
other words, the purpose of the amendment is to make sure that those | :57:42. | :57:48. | |
opening a ISA will receive independent financial advice. The | :57:49. | :57:56. | |
advice will be offered automatically through an opt in service and the | :57:57. | :58:03. | |
service provider would sign a declaration outlining the advice | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
that the applicant had received. The status of the applicant would have | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
to be confirmed and whether they planned to use the lifetime ISA for | :58:16. | :58:23. | |
a residential purpose. Independent advice doesn't have to be expensive. | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
The government could mandate an online platform where an individual | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
could get independent financial advice. Whereas the Chancellor has | :58:34. | :58:45. | |
championed the putative simple nature of the ISA that hasn't been | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
backed up. The government should ensure that no one company has the | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
contract for independent financial advice and this is to avoid a repeat | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
of the concentric scandal. The opposition believe that it is only | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
right that anyone considering a ISA for a lifetime is given an | :59:09. | :59:11. | |
opportunity to seize benefits compared to those other schemes on | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
the market. To ensure that they can make an informed choice with the | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
help of independent financial advice parity will be enabled and a much | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
needed oversight in education about the benefits of the scheme in situ. | :59:28. | :59:35. | |
It goes without saying that, virtually, the purchase of a pension | :59:36. | :59:43. | |
is one of the most important things a person undertakes. The history of | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
mis-selling has left a long deep shadow across the financial products | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
sector and we must take that into account and we can't ignore it. So | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
many bodies from across numerous industries outlining concerns that | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
there is a risk that people will save into a lifetime ISA when it is | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
not the most beneficial option, I can't see a reasonable argument | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
against ensuring that applicants receive independent financial advice | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
before opening an account. Millions of people have lost confidence in | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
much of the sector and that is partly why, as alluded to by the | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
witnesses in the committee, if people are saving, they are doing so | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
in cash Isas because they are not sure about stocks and shares and | :00:33. | :00:39. | |
other products. They are then saving in products that give very low | :00:40. | :00:44. | |
returns. We must create an environment in which people can save | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
and feel confident that they will get a reasonable return on their | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
investment, especially if that investment is for the later years | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
and that is perfectly reasonable. Moving on to clause four. First-time | :00:56. | :01:01. | |
residential purchase research impact assessment. We recognise that people | :01:02. | :01:06. | |
want to own their own home and we would encourage people to do that if | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
it is what they wish. We are concerned that the policy will only | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
inflate housing prices further and that the lifetime ISA will make | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
things more difficult in an already strained housing environment because | :01:22. | :01:23. | |
of the limited number of houses being built nationwide. I won't even | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
mention the huge cost of housing at a ghillie in London and the | :01:30. | :01:45. | |
south-east. -- especially in London. The review must be made public and | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
available before both houses of parliament. Evidence received in the | :01:53. | :01:59. | |
yearly stages highlighted concerns amongst the likes of Martin Lewis. | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
While acknowledging the popularity of the lifetime ISA arguing that | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
unintended consequences are a possibility and concern. It's | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
worrying that fewer homes were built in the last Parliament and in any of | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
the government since the 1920s. The lifetime ISA may help, may help, to | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
overheat a market that is already short of capacity. The government | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
priority should be to try to mitigate that and not to add to the | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
problem. The fact is, people are increasingly chasing a product and | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
market that has loads apply levels. As I indicated at committee stage, | :02:48. | :02:54. | |
it happens that product is a house. The government are almost two years | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
through their five-year housing plan, not counting the previous five | :02:58. | :03:01. | |
years and we are still falling badly behind targets. If I recall... On | :03:02. | :03:22. | |
100,000 house transactions per year of ?750, it adds about 70 million | :03:23. | :03:31. | |
per year to prices. If we are adding to an overheating sector it is | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
important that we take into account the overall impact. Moving on to new | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
clause five. As mentioned, the opposition concern about the | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
lifetime ISA will do little to help those on low incomes to save. We | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
would like the government to produce within six months of the act coming | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
into force an analysis of the distribution of benefits of lifetime | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
ISA looking at the additional effects between different households | :04:02. | :04:08. | |
of different levels of incomes, gender, and different ethnic | :04:09. | :04:15. | |
minority groups. The government is making huge cuts to working tax | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
credits even after the Chancellor's minor adjustments. Therefore, it's | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
difficult to imagine that such families will have a spare ?50 a | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
month to put into a help to save account. I refer to my early point | :04:33. | :04:42. | |
about low take-up. The lifetime ISA will deliver subsidies to those who | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
need them least. Meanwhile, there is a danger that the measure which is | :04:48. | :04:57. | |
for universal credit and credit restrictions may enable people on | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
low incomes to save when at that point it is not in their best | :05:03. | :05:10. | |
interest to do so. They represent a move away from collectivisation of | :05:11. | :05:21. | |
welfare. As women are both less likely to have funds to save and | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
more likely to require time out for caring they would be disadvantaged | :05:28. | :05:33. | |
by an individualised approach rather than a collective system that allows | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
for redistribution. Moving on to new clause six. This feeds into the | :05:39. | :05:46. | |
overall debate over whether the lifetime ISA would be good value for | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
money particularly if it doesn't help those on low incomes and | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
minority groups to save. While we welcome the sensible measures to | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
address the issue of how low retirement savings for the less | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
well-off will pan out, anything that puts money into the pocket of middle | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
to low earners is welcome but I will do how it sits alongside the | :06:12. | :06:18. | |
Conservative aims to cut in relation to universal credit. According to | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
the budget responsibility office, the various schemes would create a | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
?5 billion Lascuna in the public finances. It is therefore important | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
that it is not disproportionate to those who are already in a position | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
to get onto the housing ladder and a. It would be a shame if the | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
beneficiaries of this scheme were limited to those already able to | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
afford to save and a deposit for a house. At the time when the two | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
policy announcements,, the same time, the idea of giving ?1.8 | :07:00. | :07:06. | |
billion for housing support for those of a better position to afford | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
juxtaposed against the significant cuts to those in lower paid work | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
will at the very least be seen as insensitive and some as crass and | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
unfair. It is incumbent upon the Minister to | :07:19. | :07:28. | |
ensure that the use of taxpayers' money is undertaken with duty | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
uppermost in her mind. This is all the more necessary in times of | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
economic turbulence, that the use of taxpayers' money must be both | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
prudent and canny. That is why we are asking the government to | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
implement an assessment within six months of the bill coming into | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
effect on the value for money to the taxpayer provided by the lifetime | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
ISA and help to save scheme. The opposition has concerns about the | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
effectiveness of this scheme. Whilst we welcome any reasonable measures | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
that will allow those on low incomes to be able to save and encourage | :08:00. | :08:03. | |
young people to start saving earlier, the fear is that this | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
scheme will disproportionately benefit a minority of people who are | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
already more likely to be any position to save and get on the | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
ladder. There is a clear contradiction, some might say, of a | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
government on the one hand cutting universal tax credits and on the | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
other somehow expecting them to find the money to use this, to fund this | :08:25. | :08:34. | |
scheme. Is that fair? I have ordered, the clear concerns the | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
surrounding the need for independent financial advice and assessment on | :08:38. | :08:39. | |
the on the impact the Right to Buy schemes will have on the housing | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
market and its cost effectiveness. It is paramount that the government, | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
in due course, lays out clear evidence as to who is using this | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
scheme and if necessary amended to allow wider participation. This | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
should not interfere with the continued success of the | :08:56. | :08:57. | |
auto-enrolment and therefore should be delayed until 2019, when | :08:58. | :09:02. | |
auto-enrolment is completed. To be clear, this is not the scheme we | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
would have initiated. We have huge reservations about any move from | :09:07. | :09:08. | |
this Government away from a collective pension system and | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
towards an individualised payments system. That is a very slippery | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
slope and this Government will not be here to regret it. Mr Speaker, | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
that is why we will continue to scrutinise the lifetime ISA, a | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
potential Trojan horse to the current pension system, and help to | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
save scheme, which attempts to solve the conscience of a few backbenchers | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
opposite after the gentle taken to tax credit. If the government will | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
not concede, we will be pursuing to a division new clauses two and six. | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is a | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
pleasure to be called in this debate. I rise to meet new clause | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
seven and Edmonds 15, 17, 18, 19, 20, 22, 1011, 18, 13 and seven in my | :09:56. | :10:02. | |
name and my honourable colleague's. I can see members opposite are | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
laughing, but perhaps the government had taken this seriously and had | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
taken well-intentioned amendments when we were in the committee stage, | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
we would not be having to put all of these down tonight. Let's tell the | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
House, this is actually a seriously bad bill. It is a seriously bad | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
piece of legislation and it ought to be taken seriously by members | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
opposite, and not scoffed at. We in the Scottish National Party have | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
consistently warned of the dangers from this bill. And its consequences | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
for savers. The SNP are supportive of any initiative which promotes | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
savings, but this is a gimmick is that only works for those who can | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
afford to save to the levels demanded by the government to get | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
the bonus. The lifetime ISA falls short of real pension reform. Mr | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
Speaker, it is a distraction to allow the Treasury access to taxes | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
today, rather than having to wait until tomorrow. Saving into this | :10:56. | :11:03. | |
type of either are made out of after-tax income. Pension | :11:04. | :11:05. | |
contributions are tax-exempt and tend to receive employee employer | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
contribute is. Saving through pensions remain the most attractive | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
method of saving for endowment. Although anything that encourages | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
saving for a little advice to be welcomed, there is danger that this | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
Government will derail auto-enrolment. Hope to see it as | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
another example where we agreed working to encourage savings is | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
welcome however in this case, again, the UK Government only scratched the | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
surface rather than willing to really tackling those struggling to | :11:33. | :11:39. | |
plan for emergencies later in life. If we pass this bill tonight, we run | :11:40. | :11:42. | |
the risk of seducing young people away from investing in pensions by | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
encouraging investment in a lifetime ISA. We have said before that nobody | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
investing in an ISA can be better off than somebody investing in a | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
pension. Nobody will be better off in an ISA. Why are the government | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
persisting with this Bill? Let us be clear, if we pass this bill tonight, | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
we are creating the circumstances that young people could be sold a | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
lifetime ISA when their interest would be better served by investing | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
in a pension. That is what we will do if we pass this bill. We thought | :12:18. | :12:23. | |
at committee stage to make sure there were safeguards in place, to | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
make sure our advice was available for applicants to remove this risk. | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
The government, for whatever reason, refused to accept these reasonable | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
proposals at committee stage. We are pushing new clause seven this | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
evening that would provide advice for applicants. The Secretary of | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
State must make provision by regulation to ensure all providers | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
of lifetime myself, or help to save accounts, provide applicants at the | :12:50. | :12:51. | |
point of application with both advise about the suitability of the | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
product in question for each individual applicant and information | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
about automatic enrolment and workplace pension schemes. This new | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
clause would require advised to be provided for applicants for iPhones | :13:04. | :13:09. | |
or help to save accounts which must include information on | :13:10. | :13:11. | |
auto-enrolment. It is something that is still in its infancy and is due | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
to be reviewed next year, although we heard to do that increases in | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
payments to auto-enrolments are now off the agenda, something that is | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
also to be, I think, debated by this House, and something that needs to | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
be changed. This has to be a priority for savings. If we are not | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
successful in succeeding with our new clause tonight, are only | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
alternative is pushing amendments 15, would remove the LISA from the | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
document, completely. Our primary issue with the bill as drafted if | :13:45. | :13:46. | |
the Government Contributions Bill. The government rely on low dropout | :13:47. | :13:51. | |
rates from auto-enrolment to justify that the LISA would not rule out | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
pension savings, we are not convinced. The bill is a missed | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
opportunity to focus on strengthening pension saving, rather | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
than tinkering around the savings landscape. Our amendments at | :14:01. | :14:08. | |
committee stage sought to bring in a delay to the LISA until the were | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
brought in and we move today for the need for manager advice Isil the | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
government said this is a confirmatory product, not an | :14:16. | :14:17. | |
alternative to pension savings, however this gets no real thought to | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
the difficulties facing consumers understanding their options and | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
whether they have savings that is the best product for their needs. | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
Pensions are already confusing and complex. The LISA, as stands, adds | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
to that complexity. We need to build trust in savings. That can only come | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
with consumers having confidence in what is being offered to them. A new | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
suite of savings products which in many cases are inferior to existing | :14:45. | :14:47. | |
offerings does not help build confidence in savings. At a second | :14:48. | :14:55. | |
reading, the financial Secretary said what is attractive about the | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
LISA is that people do not have to make an immediate decision about | :15:00. | :15:02. | |
what they are saving the money. They do not have to make this decision at | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
an early stage, when they can see what is ahead. That, Mr Speaker, is | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
an astonishing statement. Why is the financial secretary not saying that | :15:13. | :15:15. | |
we ought to be encouraging pension savings? I get the point that we | :15:16. | :15:18. | |
need to consider moves to help young people get on the housing ladder. | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
Perhaps we need to think about how investment in pensions savings might | :15:24. | :15:25. | |
help in this regard. That is one of the reasons that I keep asking for | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
the establishment of a pension fund savings commission, so that we can | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
look at these matters in a holistic manner. I keep making the point, and | :15:35. | :15:39. | |
I make no apology for saying again, nobody should be better off with a | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
LISA than they would be with pensions and savings. The long-term | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
cost of foregoing annual employer contributions of 3% of salary by | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
saving into a LISA would be substantial. For a basic rate | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
taxpayer, the impact would be of roughly one third less in a LISA | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
over a pension by the age of 60. For example, an employee earning ?25,000 | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
per year and saving 4% per annum of their income would see a difference | :16:09. | :16:15. | |
in excess of ?53,000. After 42 years, someone savings are pension | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
scheme would have a pot worth over 160 pixel isn't at a growth rate of | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
3%. -- over ?160,000. Under a LISA, at the same growth rate, the value | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
would only be 112,000, a difference of over ?53,000. The difference | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
would be even greater if wage growth was factored in. That is why we | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
cannot support the government tonight, as far as the LISA elements | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
of people are concerned. With the introduction of advice, we are | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
creating the circumstances, sorry, without the introduction of advice | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
we are creating the circumstances were mis-selling can take place. How | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
can we stop someone being sold a LISA when a pension plan would be | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
better for the consumer's needs? We cannot. That, quite simply, is why | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
this bill is wrong. The government ought to be thoroughly ashamed of | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
itself. It is creating the circumstances were mis-selling can | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
take place, and I pointed the finger of blame at the government for | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
bringing this bill, at every member prepared to go through the lobbies | :17:24. | :17:26. | |
tonight and support this. Dwell on the example that I gave, where | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
someone earning ?25,000 per annum saving 4% of their salary could be | :17:32. | :17:38. | |
as much as ?53,000 worth of after 42 years. Who can honestly support | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
this? It is not the consumer' interest, it is de facto committing | :17:44. | :17:50. | |
a fraud on savers in this country. Today, research has been published | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
by true potential which after a poll of 2000 employees showed that 30% of | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
people aged between 25 and 40 would choose a LISA instead of a pension. | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
And that 58 of 25-34 -year-olds, 58% of them, would use their LISA for a | :18:08. | :18:17. | |
retirement savings. These statistics are the early warnings of the | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
potential for mis-selling. The House tonight must vote to protect the | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
consumer interest by backing new clause seven, putting in place an | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
advice regime, failing which support amendments 15, which will delete | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
LISAs from this bill. Failure do so will be a failure of responsibility | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
of each and every member of this House. Mr Speaker, I said at second | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
reading that we would resist any further attempts to undermine | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
pension saving and specifically to change the tax status of pension | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
savings. That would be little more than an underhand way of driving up | :18:58. | :19:04. | |
tax receipts, sweet talking workers to invest after-tax income in LISAs, | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
when their interests are best served by investing in pensions. The sheer | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
fact that LISAs will be encouraged to be used for retirement savings | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
will confuse the public and this is a pension product that could just | :19:21. | :19:22. | |
incentivise retirement savings in what should be traditional products. | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
The government's response that an amendment on advice would not work | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
in practice because it would create a barrier to accessing the LISA is | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
another quite extraordinary argument, as all the advice would do | :19:35. | :19:40. | |
is make sure consumers can make informed decisions. What is there | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
not to support from that of a premise? If there are consumers that | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
choose to invest in a pension rather than a LISA product then I would be | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
delighted, and so should the government. The role of the SCA, the | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
government said, would be to ensure that sufficient safeguards are put | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
in place. Specifically on advice. While we welcome the proposed | :20:01. | :20:06. | |
protections from the SCA, namely that firms will be required to give | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
specific risk warnings at the point-of-sale, which include | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
reminding consumers of the importance of ensuring an | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
appropriate mix of assets to be held in the LISA, firms also after to | :20:17. | :20:19. | |
amend consumers of the early withdrawal charges and other | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
charges. The SCA has provided a proposal that providers will have to | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
offer a 30 day cancellation period after selling the LISA. However, | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
still the risk is simply too great for the government should treat this | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
as an afterthought. There must be a formal mechanism to assist those | :20:37. | :20:41. | |
seeking to increase savings, particularly when they are looking | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
for a retirement product. Even the EBI, who cautiously welcome the | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
LISA, have said LISA and other Isa products receive savings from money | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
that is already taxed. This keeps the burden of the taxation with | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
working eight people and takes money out of the real economy. That takes | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
us back to why we're here. -- working eight people. This takes us | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
back to why we are here, what the government is proposing and white is | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
wrong. I've also said at second reading, we welcome any reasonable | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
proposals that encourage savings and we will work where we can with the | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
UK Government to encourage pension savings. However, we very much see | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
this bill as a missed opportunity for all of us to jump in what we | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
should be focusing on, strengthened pension savings. -- to champion. Not | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
focusing on another freeze that emanated from the laboratory of | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
ideas from the previous Chancellor and his advisers, who had formed | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
with constant tinkering of the savings landscape. The right | :21:41. | :21:42. | |
honourable member for Tatton may have gone from the front bench, but | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
his memory lingers on with this bill. Let us recall what the | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
Chancellor said in his budget speech this year. | :21:52. | :21:59. | |
Too many young people have no pensions and savings. They will tell | :22:00. | :22:09. | |
you I, because they find pensions too complicated and inflexible and | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
most young people find an agonising choice of either saving to buy a | :22:15. | :22:20. | |
home or for their retirement. This assertion was not back. By evidence. | :22:21. | :22:30. | |
It was half baked. Young people under the age of 30 have the lowest | :22:31. | :22:36. | |
level of opt out rates of all those automatically enrolled into | :22:37. | :22:41. | |
workplace pensions. Research has found that the opt out rate was 8%, | :22:42. | :22:50. | |
compared with 9% of 30 to 49-year-olds and higher for those | :22:51. | :22:59. | |
over. One would have thought they would look at the evidence and find | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
the assertion for these measures are wrong. | :23:04. | :23:13. | |
After much effort, auto enrolment has been successful at encouraging | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
young people to save. That is what we should be prioritising and it is | :23:21. | :23:27. | |
why we propose to delete the LISA from this bill. We know the Treasury | :23:28. | :23:31. | |
flying kites and moving from existing arrangements for tax | :23:32. | :23:41. | |
exempt. This would incentivise pension saving but would mean higher | :23:42. | :23:47. | |
tax receipts today than pensions being taxed. A wheeze from the | :23:48. | :23:55. | |
previous Chancellor to deliver higher taxation savings today rather | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
than the future. A reverse modern Robin Hood. We must focus on pension | :24:04. | :24:13. | |
savings and an auto enrolment and not undermine those efforts by | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
inadvertently encouraging people to opt out through confusing consumers | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
with new competing products. As been stated by the likes of jury | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
insurance there is a real danger that the LISA could reverse the | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
progress which has been made in encouraging people to save for later | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
life. I agree with this. What is inconceivable is why the government | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
are pushing ahead with this with such waste. With Osborne gone from | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
the Cabinet, why are they holding onto his big ideas? Providers have | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
expressed that they may not be ready for implementation in April 20 17. | :24:54. | :25:00. | |
Surely to quality, safeguard and overcome the challenges of complex | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
at each they should accept our amendment to remove the LISA on | :25:05. | :25:14. | |
these grounds. Amendment 12, those under age 25 only qualify for tax | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
credits if they are working under 16 hours a week. This amendment would | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
ensure that such individuals would qualify for a help to save product | :25:25. | :25:35. | |
if they qualified in other ways. Amendment 14 would able a workplace | :25:36. | :25:44. | |
saving scheme which would see an individual automatically signed up | :25:45. | :25:51. | |
to help to account. Amendment 13 would ensure that individuals | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
subject to bankruptcy order would not be stripped of assets. Mr | :25:57. | :26:07. | |
Speaker, we welcome the government help to save which we believe will | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
help to boost the financial resilience of low-income households. | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
A survey conducted demonstrates the importance of helping low-income | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
households to save. Over three quarters of respondents said they | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
need to pay unexpected costs at least once a year on average worth | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
200- ?300. Many have cut back on essentials or have had to borrow | :26:33. | :26:44. | |
money for these. Having ?1000 inaccessible cash savings reduced | :26:45. | :26:46. | |
the likelihood of a household folding into debt by 44%. If each | :26:47. | :26:57. | |
household had ?1000 save it would reduce the number of problem | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
debtors. But the government could do much more. We will support these | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
aspects of the bill but to out protection to those the government | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
has not considered. Step change have a plan to tackle anticipated low | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
take-up of help to save. We think our amendments for the under 25 this | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
would help that. We also support step change's calls to bring forward | :27:31. | :27:35. | |
the plan for no longer than six months after Royal assent. Auto | :27:36. | :27:45. | |
enrolment review should be undertaken to see how we can enhance | :27:46. | :27:50. | |
those numbers and help families Bill short-term savings. I hope the | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
government will reflect on other methods this evening. There must be | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
advice for those looking to invest in an ISA. I will be looking to | :28:03. | :28:07. | |
remove LISA from this bill under Amendment 15. We must ensure there | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
is no possibility of mis-selling. A failure to do so will see is back in | :28:15. | :28:22. | |
this chamber discussing the Congress announces -- consequences and it | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
will be the government fault. It's been a pretty wide-ranging debate | :28:27. | :28:33. | |
with a relatively small number of speakers. Many of the arguments are | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
those we gave a good airing two during our bill committee | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
discussions. I look to address the key points made during the debate. | :28:42. | :28:49. | |
I'll also set out why we think the government amendments are necessary. | :28:50. | :28:58. | |
I'd like to inform members of a small change we are making to | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
charges an early withdrawals on the lifetime LISA. These rules to affect | :29:04. | :29:12. | |
the substance of the bill. As a courtesy I thought some members | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
would be interested given some evidence raised by the Bill | :29:18. | :29:30. | |
committee. The 25% charge recoups the bonus and adds a small | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
additional charge which is fair protecting government funds and tax | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
payers money. The bonus will not be paid monthly as it will from April | :29:40. | :29:46. | |
2018 but as an annual bonus at year-end. It could create a | :29:47. | :29:52. | |
difficult case where people receive a 25% charge before they receive the | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
bonus so to improve the product for consumers I have confirmed that | :29:57. | :30:08. | |
there will no charges before 2018. People can close their accounts with | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
no government charged to do so. Any individual that closes the account | :30:16. | :30:20. | |
will be able to open another LISA in 2017-8 of they wish. That means the | :30:21. | :30:28. | |
25% government charge on withdrawals other than for a first-time house | :30:29. | :30:36. | |
purchase will apply as heard the overarching policy intention. | :30:37. | :30:42. | |
Turning to amendment three, about data sharing. On this issue I wrote | :30:43. | :30:47. | |
to the honourable member for Bootle and the honourable member for Ross, | :30:48. | :30:56. | |
Skye and Lochaber. We have heard that the lifetime ISA will provide | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
an eligible first-time buyer a new choice for saving for a first home | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
in additional to the helped ISA scheme. Both include the 25% bonus. | :31:07. | :31:20. | |
When we first announced the LISA we intended them to pay into both | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
schemes but they will only be able to use the bonus from one scheme to | :31:25. | :31:37. | |
purchase a property. It also provides appropriate safeguards and | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
sanctions in relation to the use of account holders information | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
including a criminal offence for unlawful disclosure of that | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
information. This is a straightforward amendment that will | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
ensure the scheme rules around government bonuses can be | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
effectively administered. With regard to residency conditions. Help | :32:05. | :32:14. | |
to save. A targeted scheme that will support lower-income savers by | :32:15. | :32:17. | |
providing a generous government bonus on savings. It is only right | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
that this should be available made while the account holder is in the | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
UK or has an appropriate connection with the UK such as Crown servants | :32:27. | :32:36. | |
overseas. The bill already provides for a UK being in -- an individual | :32:37. | :32:46. | |
in the UK to open an account. These amendments address the situation by | :32:47. | :32:49. | |
allowing regulations to provide a monthly payment limit. That helped | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
to save can be set at nil in certain cases. We intend to use this power | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
to ensure that individuals cannot earn an additional government bonus | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
when they are not in the UK don't have the appropriate connection to | :33:05. | :33:05. | |
the UK. This approach broadly mirrors the | :33:06. | :33:26. | |
arrangements for ISA accounts. A penalty will not apply where there | :33:27. | :33:32. | |
is a reasonable excuse for failure to notify and anyone who receives a | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
penalty reserves the right to appeal. These amendments allow an | :33:37. | :33:45. | |
effective targeting of the generous help to save bonus so it can only be | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
earned on savings made by individuals in the UK or with an | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
appropriate connection and on that basis I hope the house will accept | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
them. Some of the non-government amendments. Just to summarise the | :34:01. | :34:13. | |
main response. On clause seven, advice for people opening either | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
type of account. We have heard concerns that people might not get | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
all the advice they need. The regulation of providers is a role | :34:21. | :34:25. | |
for the independent Financial Conduct Authority. It will likewise | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
set the framework for the LISA. They are consulting on their approach and | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
have set out their suggested approach. The government wants to | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
ensure that people have the information they need to make | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
important decisions and we will provide clear information to ensure | :34:45. | :34:50. | |
they make appropriate and impartial information available. At the risk | :34:51. | :34:59. | |
of and dating this advice is that it makes the products prohibitively | :35:00. | :35:02. | |
expensive for many people. We were talking about the cost associated | :35:03. | :35:09. | |
with mandating financial advice. While I understand the sentiment | :35:10. | :35:12. | |
behind these clauses I urge members to withdraw it and look at what the | :35:13. | :35:20. | |
SCA are recommend in their initial suggestions. I'll take a brief | :35:21. | :35:32. | |
intervention. I ungrateful but I don't think speaking for 20 minutes | :35:33. | :35:41. | |
as unreasonable. What evidence is that individuals will be better off | :35:42. | :35:50. | |
under a LISA rather than a pension question I accept that the | :35:51. | :36:00. | |
honourable gentleman has an objection in principle to the LISA. | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
I have given examples where the government will steer people towards | :36:05. | :36:10. | |
advice. We are keen as anyone that people have access to advice but I | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
would urge him to look at the consultation. Let the turn to | :36:14. | :36:24. | |
amendment to and help to save and credit unions as providers. Let me | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
make a few general comments. In particular on credit unions. I | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
absolutely agree that they pay a key role in providing affordable credit. | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
The government is keen to support them. Our manifesto committed to | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
support the credit union movement making financial services more | :36:48. | :36:54. | |
successful. We support the expansion project and have provided ?38 | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
million worth of funding to help the sector modernise and become self | :36:59. | :37:04. | |
sustainable. We increased the maximum interest rates that credit | :37:05. | :37:05. | |
unions can charge. We have chosen to appoint as the | :37:06. | :37:16. | |
single provider of help to save occurrence as it provides the most | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
cost-effective way of ensuring national coverage for the scheme. We | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
do acknowledge the important role that credit unions play in local | :37:24. | :37:26. | |
communities but it became clear during the summer's consultation | :37:27. | :37:31. | |
that a multiple provider model reliant on financial providers | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
including credit union offering accounts on a voluntary basis would | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
just not guarantee the UK- wide coverage that we wanted. And by | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
appointing NAS NI as the scheme provider, we can achieve that | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
nationwide account provisions. It also means we can work with a single | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
provider doing ensure that counts are easily accessible by all the | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
eligible people, removing a significant administrative and | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
compliance cost associated with a range of different providers. | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
However, I do want to stress, and I hope this is of reassurance | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
particularly to the honourable lady was not on the bill committee, that | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
the builders are low HMRC to approve a credit union to be unauthorised | :38:15. | :38:18. | |
account provider if we decide to adopt a multiple provider model of | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
account provisions in the future. So NSNI is adopted as the provider at | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
this stage and regulations but there is nothing on the face of the bill | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
that would preclude expanding the provider model on the future, I just | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
want to give her that reassurance, and the honourable gentleman for | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
Harrow West. There is nothing precluding credit unions being | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
further involved in the future. They are very grateful to her forgiving | :38:42. | :38:45. | |
way. I listened with interest to the two speeches opposite about the | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
credit unions, and I myself am a member of one. Will she looks | :38:50. | :38:53. | |
specifically, because I think what the honourable lady from Wallsall of | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
asking, this is an opportunity to expand the role of credit Unions by | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
giving the preferred provider status, so when she considers | :39:01. | :39:06. | |
expanding potentially alternative providers beyond NSNI we should look | :39:07. | :39:11. | |
at expanding it to credit unions solely as an alternative to NSNI | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
rather than more properly? I hope my honourable friend will understand | :39:17. | :39:18. | |
that it would be pre-emptive of me to make a commitment like that at | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
this stage but we have been very clear that we think credit unions | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
have a big role to play. They are not precluded by the primary | :39:25. | :39:27. | |
legislation from being part of a multiple provider model in the | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
future. And indeed my officials have been in constructive discussions | :39:34. | :39:35. | |
with the credit union movement throughout the passage of this bill. | :39:36. | :39:39. | |
We are working with the sector, the credit union sector, to ensure the | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
final design of help to save meets the need of the target audience and | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
I know the economics Secretary is looking forward to meeting the | :39:48. | :39:49. | |
honourable member for Harrow West and the honourable member for South | :39:50. | :39:54. | |
Ribble to discuss the issue further with the Association of British | :39:55. | :39:57. | |
credit unions. This is not about excluding the credit union movement | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
at all. We are in regular, constructive discussion with them. | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
We just feel at this stage it does not allow us to offer that simple, | :40:06. | :40:12. | |
nationwide model to... Of course. I thank the Minister for what she is a | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
thing. Our concern is that savings of a critical part of the ability of | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
credit unions to be able to deliver the services that they provide. The | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
argument she is making does not preclude the amendment that we are | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
talking about today and that the Co-op MPs have suggested that would | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
enable the conversations she is talking about to happen. There would | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
be no suggestion the Rubio legislative bar, for she is making | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
the case for the amendment we are making by suggesting it is what she | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
wants to do in future. I am saying there is nothing precluding is | :40:45. | :40:46. | |
happening on the base of the bill, for the amendment of unnecessary. We | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
are in constructive discussions with the credit unions and they are not | :40:51. | :40:53. | |
recorded from the future. I have just laid out why they, throughout | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
the consultation process, we identified that was not a suitable | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
model for the starting point of this. But I honestly think that we | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
are essentially coming at this from the same point of view and I do hope | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
in the light of what I have said the honourable members will look at | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
withdrawing this amendment and we will continue to have those, as I | :41:15. | :41:19. | |
say, constructive discussions. Let me turn to amendment seven, which is | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
about the bonus being paid every six months. This, honestly, seeks to | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
baby bonus every six months rather than at the two and four year mark | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
on the opt is a product. We believe paying the bonus at two years and a | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
good majority strikes the right balance between giving people are | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
not to build up their savings and developed a savings habit and | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
allowing them to access it within an appropriate timescale. That is | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
supported by evidence from similar savings schemes. Some members will | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
be aware of the savings Gateway pilot that we run Match of The Day 2 | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
year period of savings is optimum for embedding the saving habit. I | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
want to emphasise to members that people will still have full access | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
to their savings with help to save, so only if they are only able to | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
save for six months, they will still be entitled to receive a bonus at | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
the two-year pointer maturity. I hope that reassures honourable | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
members that we have looked carefully at this. I accept that it | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
is to an extent a judgment call but I think we have evidence from the | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
pilots, savings Gateway, as well as from other peer-reviewed research | :42:27. | :42:30. | |
which shows that the savings habit is embedded around about the 19-24 | :42:31. | :42:36. | |
month as the optimum time, and therefore we think that is the right | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
balance that we have struck. Again, honourable members might consider | :42:42. | :42:44. | |
withdrawing the amendment. Nine, ten and 11, around the contribution | :42:45. | :42:50. | |
limits, not many members spoke specifically to this. We explored it | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
quite building committee. This is about being able to actually | :42:54. | :43:00. | |
contribute an average, a two monthly average, of ?50. Our consultation | :43:01. | :43:04. | |
specifically addressed the question of whether or not individuals should | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
be able to pay in more than the ?50 limit in certain circumstances, and | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
respondents were very clear that this would add complexity to the | :43:12. | :43:14. | |
scheme for both savers and account providers. It is worth notifying | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
that in the OBR certified forecast it was suggested that people would | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
deposit ?27 50 into their accounts on average. I would suggest that the | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
monthly limit is adequate and this amendment might be withdrawn. | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
Amendment 12 of about eligibility for under 25. Again explored during | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
the course of the committee. Touch down briefly by the honourable | :43:39. | :43:45. | |
member for Ross, Skye and Lochaber. Our intention is to passport people | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
into eligibility, to help to save and working tax credit, and from UC. | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
It is a well-established way of targeting people on lower incomes | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
and we think it is the most simple and effective method for determining | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
eligibility. Importantly, it removes the need for people to completely | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
further means test to prove they are eligible for an account or to | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
contact the government. We know both of those things are deterrents when | :44:11. | :44:13. | |
it comes to stopping people opening accounts. It also avoids additional | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
costs associated with developing a new and complex eligibility checking | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
system. Amendment 13, again touched on by the honourable member speaking | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
from the front bench for the SNP, was about exempting bonuses from | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
bankruptcy proceedings. The approach we have taken is consistent with | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
what we have done elsewhere. For example, in the benefits system, | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
where deductions are sometimes made to claims to repay debts, we think | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
that in reality any accrued bonus represents an asset for the account | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
holder and should be treated as such during any insolvency proceedings. | :44:51. | :44:52. | |
Again, I would urge members to withdraw. Turning to new clause one, | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
with the honourable member for Harrow West asserted his remarks, | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
and that is the savers who are on the payroll deduction, also touched | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
on in amendment 14. Both seek to introduce rules to allow people to | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
automatically deduct amounts from their salary into a help to save | :45:11. | :45:16. | |
account, and amendment 14 goes further by introducing | :45:17. | :45:19. | |
auto-enrolment for help to save, allowing employers or benefit being | :45:20. | :45:22. | |
bodies to divert money from employees' paid to a halt to save | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
account, unless they opt out. As I said at the committee stage, we want | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
the decision to save into a help to save account to be an active choice | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
made by eligible individuals at a time that is right for them, and for | :45:35. | :45:37. | |
many that will mean saving the Exelby, putting aside what they can | :45:38. | :45:39. | |
afford each month, rather than committing to a fixed amount | :45:40. | :45:52. | |
deducted each month from their salary. Again, there is nothing in | :45:53. | :45:54. | |
the legislation to stop an employer offering payroll deduction for help | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
to save to their employees, but we do not intend to make it a statutory | :45:58. | :45:59. | |
requirement for employers to offer payroll deduction for help to save. | :46:00. | :46:01. | |
Automatic enrolment into workplace pensions must remain a priority for | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
employers. There are a number of new clauses, two, four, five and six, | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
seeking to place a duty on the government to review published | :46:11. | :46:13. | |
analysis on certain aspects of the policies. In all of these cases, I | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
would note to the House that we have already contacted, conducted an | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
impact assessment published alongside this bill. We published | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
the motive distribution analysis is Autumn Statement of all of the | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
policies implemented during the 1524 hrs, including NSNI and help to | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
save, and believe it is important to look at the cumulative impact, | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
rather than the impact of individual measures in isolation. The | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
distribution analysis which the government has published since 2010 | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
have always taken it live that made the cumulative rather than measured | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
by major approach. We will of course keep the LISA under review to ensure | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
it is meeting its objectives and regularly publish a wide range of | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
detail about the take-up of the government supported savings | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
accounts, such as ISA, and intend to take a similar approach with the | :47:04. | :47:06. | |
wife to take a similar approach with the lifetime either. There is a lot | :47:07. | :47:11. | |
we have already done here. -- with the lifetime either. Any impact that | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
-- from the LISA is likely to be very difficult to detect from other | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
factors in the honourable member for brittle revert to that on the fact | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
that we had touched on that during the committee. Indeed, as we | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
mentioned there, some of the accusations that this is a product | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
that is only there for the wealthy I think to not there scrutiny when you | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
look at how Help To Buy ISA has been used, where it has been used to buy | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
homes worth on average 160,000 thousand pounds, well under the | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
property price cap. I do not believe those accusations are fair. On the | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
interaction with the automatic enrolment, which is obviously | :47:50. | :47:53. | |
dominating much of the comment by the honourable gentleman leading for | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
the Scottish National Party, again, we covered this in some detail and I | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
can once again stressed the government's absolute commitment to | :48:03. | :48:04. | |
automatic enrolment. It is quite wrong to say that we seek to the | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
rule that. The lifetime either and the Treasury is quite clear on this | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
is designed to be a complement to automatic enrolment and workplace | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
pensions, and not a replacement. Our costings consultancy, assume that | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
people will object of their workplace pension in order to pay | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
into too early to. Again, we have cited the figure is already very, | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
very low figures of uptake rates so far, encouraging result. Taking all | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
of those things together, we do not believe the new clauses are | :48:35. | :48:36. | |
necessary and again I would urge honourable members to withdraw them. | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
Obviously amendments 15-22 effectively cancel the lifetime | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
either from the bill. It is quite evident from my comments so far that | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
I have no intention of accepting those amendments, and again it is | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
clear that we have a disagreement in principle. I did think the | :48:54. | :48:55. | |
honourable gentleman for Ross, Skye and Lochaber bordered on hyperbole | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
was about the accusations against the measure. He says he is prepared | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
to look at any reasonable measure which else able to save. We know | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
from the conversations that have taken place on the complex subject | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
of saving for the future that this is a product that will help many | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
people say. It is a direct response to the Commons that we had to a | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
public consultation about the complexity of savings options. No | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
matter, I am going to press on in this regard. No, we have had a good | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
debate of that committee stage and here and I am going to press on. | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
Shouting NO, I HAVE TO DATE TAKEN SLIGHTLY | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
LESS TIME THAN THE HONOURABLE GENTLEMAN... She is clearly not | :49:37. | :49:43. | |
giving way, it is apparent to everybody else, I am sure it is now | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
apparent to the honourable gentleman. I am not going to accept | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
the amendments seeking to cancel have to go. I repair him to the | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
SCA's consultation. I do not think that they would recognise his | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
comments and I do not either. On amendment one, the maturity period | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
of the account on help to save, this would change the normal maturity | :50:04. | :50:11. | |
period from 48 to 24 month and in practice and that would mean that | :50:12. | :50:14. | |
people could only save for two years, rather than poor, and we have | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
designed the scheme so that people can the event in a help to save and | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
get a government bonus after two years and continue to save and | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
receive a further bonus when the account page is after four years, | :50:25. | :50:26. | |
and we have done that because we want the target group to be able to | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
save as regularly as other people and they may take longer to save | :50:30. | :50:31. | |
towards that vital rainy day fund. Secondly, it provides an incentive | :50:32. | :50:46. | |
for people to continue saving beyond two years, which fits our objective | :50:47. | :50:48. | |
to encourage people to develop a long-term savings habit. Again, I | :50:49. | :50:50. | |
hope those amendments wait, it might withdraw. Amendment sex would delay | :50:51. | :50:52. | |
commencement until April 2019, when automatic enrolment to workplace | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
pensions will be fully rolled out. We have been very clear we do not | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
expect lifetime I felt to drive opt outs from pensions saving, and there | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
is no reason to delay. In fact, that Italy would disadvantage those who | :51:04. | :51:09. | |
wish to open a LISA and have been preparing for a 2017 lunch. Again, | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
the honourable gentleman completely disregarded for example the fact | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
there are people who are self-employed who did not have an | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
option of accessing a workplace pension scheme. That was something | :51:22. | :51:23. | |
that came imagine the evidence to the bill committee. Not a about the | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
self-employed. No, I will not. It would also delay helped to save for | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
a year, disadvantage, disadvantage in favour is only low income who | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
would benefit from the skin. I am passionate about the help to save | :51:39. | :51:40. | |
scheme, as a lot of honourable members are, and want to see it go | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
ahead as planned mounted to work with all of the people mentioned, | :51:45. | :51:50. | |
the credit unions and churches, to make sure that we absolutely exceed | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
the target for help to save in terms of take-up. I would be delighted if | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
we vastly exceed the target. I'm grateful for the level of | :51:58. | :52:15. | |
interest the members have shown in this important area of helping | :52:16. | :52:17. | |
people to save and I appreciate that many of the amendments were made the | :52:18. | :52:27. | |
spirit of trying to I have set out why I don't feel the new clauses are | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
necessary. I hope they do not push for a division. | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
That notwithstanding I am confident the bill will further the government | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
aim of supporting people in the different ways they want to save for | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
the future and, of course, I commend it to the house. The final words are | :52:51. | :53:00. | |
for the member for Harrow West. This has been a very short but | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
interesting debate. I come find my brief final remarks to the three | :53:04. | :53:11. | |
amendments tabled in my name. The member for Walthamstow made a | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
characteristically excellent speech dwelling on the debt soon army | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
coming our way. She rightly alluded to the challenges many face in | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
providing a service through local employers to local employees. My | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
honourable friend for Bootle in his excellent speech from the front | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
bench, perhaps inspired again by listening to the works of | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
Shostakovich of which I know he is a devotee, rightly worried that the | :53:43. | :53:48. | |
number of people who would sign up for Help To Save given the numbers | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
eligible would not be as great if credit unions were not able to be | :53:53. | :53:59. | |
included in the provision of those providers who can offer help to | :54:00. | :54:05. | |
save. I was very interested in the minister's response. I hear her | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
concerns about new clause one and I look forward to exploring those | :54:11. | :54:18. | |
little more the meeting with her fellow minister for Brighton. I was | :54:19. | :54:23. | |
grateful to hear her assurance an amendment one and a possible | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
reduction to 12 months rather than 24 months. As a result, I will not | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
move to a division either amendment one or new clause one but I will | :54:34. | :54:42. | |
seek to press to a division amendment to. I don't think the | :54:43. | :54:48. | |
minister made a convincing case as to why credit unions should not be | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
allowed to offer this product at this point. I think it's clear that | :54:53. | :55:03. | |
NSNI will be a good national provider but it isn't clear white | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
local credit unions cannot offer the product at the same time. Given the | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
efforts that the Treasury are going to it seems odd not to take | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
advantage of the offer credit unions can provide to get more people | :55:16. | :55:21. | |
signed up. In that spirit, I intend to press amendment to to a division | :55:22. | :55:29. | |
but not close to or amendment one. Is it the house's pleasure that new | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
clause one be withdrawn? By leave withdrawn. New clause to to be read | :55:36. | :55:53. | |
a second time? Division! Clear the lobby! | :55:54. | :57:47. | |
Order! The question is, the new clause to be read as second time? | :57:48. | :58:08. | |
Tell others for the ayes, and for the noes. | :58:09. | :04:03. | |
200 200 the Allies to the right, 200 the nose to the left, 200 the nose | :04:04. | :08:48. | |
have it. The noes amendments 15 to be moved formerly. The question is | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
that amendment 15 be made. As many of that opinion of the division. | :08:55. | :11:39. | |
The question is that amendment 15 be made. As many of that opinion the | :11:40. | :11:53. | |
iMac. Of the contrary tellers for the Patrick Grady, tellers for, | :11:54. | :17:05. | |
The ayes to the right, 48. The noes to the left, 248. The ayes to the | :17:06. | :21:37. | |
right 45. The noes to the left, 284. The noes have it! Unlock! The | :21:38. | :21:45. | |
question is that amendment three be made. As many of that opinion say | :21:46. | :22:01. | |
aye. The ayes have it! The question is that amendment to be made. As | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
many of that opinion say aye. The contrary. Division! Clear the lobby! | :22:09. | :23:10. | |
Order! The question is that amendment to be made. | :23:11. | :23:27. | |
Tell for the ayes. Tellers for the noes. | :23:28. | :30:13. | |
The noes on the left 279. The noes have it! Unlock. With the lead of | :30:14. | :33:12. | |
the house we will take amendments four and five together. The question | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
is that amendment is four and five be made. The ayes have it! Third | :33:18. | :33:44. | |
reading. The question is that the bill be now read a third time. Jane | :33:45. | :33:51. | |
Ellison. Thank you very much. I beg to move that the bill now be read | :33:52. | :33:57. | |
for a third time. Can I thank all the right honourable and honourable | :33:58. | :34:00. | |
members who have taken time to scrutinise the bill through its | :34:01. | :34:04. | |
passage through this house and for subjecting it to good constructive | :34:05. | :34:08. | |
debate which I think has been very helpful. We want to make it easier | :34:09. | :34:14. | |
to build up savings and meet ambitions to be secure in personal | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
finances and we set to work to make this the case. We have put an end to | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
17 million people having to pay tax on the interest received on their | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
savings and we announced the biggest ever increase on the ice allowance | :34:29. | :34:39. | |
from April next year. This bill carries on this hugely important | :34:40. | :34:40. | |
work. The lifetime ISA is a positive move for | :34:41. | :34:57. | |
savers, a compliment for pensions. With help to save which has enjoyed | :34:58. | :35:05. | |
cross-party support in the house we know why this is so important. The | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
Centre for Social Justice tells is an estimated 3 million households | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
have no savings at all. This is a hugely important step we are making | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
to move forward with this important account. The passage of the bill | :35:20. | :35:29. | |
through the house has been met with thoughtful and constructive | :35:30. | :35:39. | |
challenge but it is a fundamental about helping people to save for | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
their future and I have great pleasure in recommending it to the | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
house. The question is that the bill be read a third time. I'd like to | :35:48. | :35:55. | |
echo the sentiments of the Minister in relation to the scrutiny this | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
bill has had. I'd like to thank all the witnesses who came to the | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
sessions we had and the written evidence we've had from everyone and | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
all the informal information we've had from contacts in relation to the | :36:10. | :36:20. | |
Bill. Nobody has any objection to helping people to save, it's a | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
question as to how you managed to do that. We are not convinced this will | :36:25. | :36:31. | |
do that. We don't think there is sufficient evidence to back up what | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
the minister said and we don't think it addresses this shortage of | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
housing. It's a question of whether it is value for money. We think it, | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
brigades the market and introduces potentially a Trojan Horse. Not | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
everybody is convinced about it. In relation to help to buy, for those | :36:52. | :37:00. | |
on low income I'm not convinced it does the business for them. It puts | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
a little drop back into a very big ocean. I think the government should | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
listen to what many people have said out there but nevertheless we accept | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
the fact that we need to help people to save for the future and we think | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
that all the information provided to as sets the scene for continued | :37:18. | :37:25. | |
future debates on this matter in due course. I'd like to thank the | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
Minister for her helpfulness and civility throughout the whole | :37:30. | :37:30. | |
process. I have to say that I think this is | :37:31. | :37:39. | |
legislation that we will be repenting at in due course. We | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
cannot get away from the fact when all the evidence that was presented | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
to us, we look at the evidence that was presented by the EBI, it makes | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
it absolutely abundantly clear that anyone that has the opportunity to | :37:52. | :37:57. | |
invest in a workplace pension is going to be worse off by investing | :37:58. | :38:05. | |
in a LISA than they would be any pension. When I listened to the | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
Minister talking about those who are self who do not have the advantages | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
of auto-enrolment, what we should have been doing is bringing forward | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
legislation that deals with that problem. We have the opportunity | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
when we review auto-enrolment next to do this. There is no need for | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
this legislation for ordinary people. Ordinary people are not | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
going to benefit from the LISA. Let me put it to the House that what | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
this is going to do is reward those that have already maxed out on their | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
pension schemes by giving them another opportunity that will help | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
them with the government bonus. Not so much about what they call a LISA, | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
it is what we on this side of the House would call the report. The | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
really useful perks for extremely rich Tories. Because, Madame Deputy | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
Speaker, these are the only people that will benefit from this | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
legislation tonight. And when it comes down to what is really | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
important in this, and I am delighted that True Potential have | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
published their evidence today, because let me just give you to | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
maxed from what they have published, 30% of people aged between 25 and | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
40, when given the opportunity, would choose a LISA instead of a | :39:22. | :39:29. | |
pension. 58% of 25-34 -year-olds would use the LISA for retirement | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
savings. Now, we know that those that have the opportunity to invest | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
in a pension will always be better off, as I said at second reading, | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
what this Government has wilfully done in going through the lobbies | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
and second reading is created the circumstances where young people in | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
this country are going to be mis-sold LISAs. This Government | :39:52. | :39:55. | |
should be utterly, utterly ashamed for itself. Kelvin Hopkins. I was a | :39:56. | :40:04. | |
member of the bill committee and I made many of the points that I wish | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
to make at that time. Sadly, I was not able to be here for the first | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
part of debate but I wanted to see a few words in support of what we have | :40:12. | :40:13. | |
heard from the opposition front bench. My honourable friend and the | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
leader for the Scottish Nationalists have expressed very strong words of | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
scepticism about the whole bill and I have to say I share them, and in | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
fact reinforce them. For the very poorest, what they need, Madame | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
Deputy Speaker, is a much bigger state Pension and beyond that, for | :40:31. | :40:37. | |
many people, a compulsory, earning seven related state pension scheme | :40:38. | :40:39. | |
would be much better value and would guarantee that everybody said some | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
of their earnings for a decent old age. I think that would be the much | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
more positive way forward and I echo what has been set from the | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
opposition front bench, and thank you for this opportunity to speak. | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
Gareth Thomas. It is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend the | :41:01. | :41:02. | |
religion. I did not have the privilege of serving on the bill | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
committee. -- friend for illusion. But I did take part at second | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
reading and earlier in the discussions at report stage. And I | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
welcome the commitment of ministers to continue to engage with credit | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
unions, which was the primary issue that I thought to raise over the | :41:22. | :41:30. | |
course of... Of the bill's passage in this chamber. There is one | :41:31. | :41:36. | |
further issue that we did not address, in particular about help to | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
save. With a national provider, a National savings and investment, it | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
would be relatively easy to disaggregate the data of who is | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
taking advantage of the help to save product, and to publish that in an | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
unorganised form. So that we can strike which postcodes are seeing | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
the help to save products taken advantage of. And I read that in the | :42:03. | :42:06. | |
context of work that the Treasury are doing with the British banking | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
Association in encouraging banks to publish data about what financial | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
services products are being offered to whom, and who is taking advantage | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
of them. The banks have been reluctantly forced to reveal where | :42:22. | :42:30. | |
they are lending, but the quality of information which has been provided | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
is not yet perfect. It is a journey that we are on with the banks and | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
one of the things that the Treasury could do once they get these bill | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
through both houses, as they seem likely to do, is to require the | :42:43. | :42:50. | |
company to publish on a post code bases were people are taking up the | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
hill to save product. I commend that do ministers. I hope they will take | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
that up and I hope that members of the other house will explore this | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
particular additional issue in a little bit more detail. The question | :43:05. | :43:14. | |
is the bill be now read the third time. As many of that opinion say I. | :43:15. | :43:20. | |
Of the contrary no. The ayes habit. The ayes habit. We now come to item | :43:21. | :43:29. | |
number two, the motion on the welfare cap. Call the Minister to | :43:30. | :43:38. | |
make the motion, Caroline. Thank you, made Deputy Speaker. Today's | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
motion is about the government taking accountability for welfare | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
spending before this Island and indeed before the public. Madame | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
Deputy Speaker, this debate is about the welfare cap. I hope honourable | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
and Right Honourable members from both sides will agree that are | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
welfare system is about more than just the numbers. We have a set of | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
principles to build a welfare system that works for everyone. We need to | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
look beyond just benefits and work with employers, health professionals | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
and the voluntary sector. We need to ensure the system supports people to | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
get into work, to stay in work and to progress in work. We must offer | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
care for the minority of people who cannot work, whether through | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
sickness, disability or personal circumstances. We introduced the | :44:21. | :44:27. | |
welfare cap in 2013 to strengthen control of overspending and improve | :44:28. | :44:30. | |
parliamentary accountability for that level of spending. The welfare | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
cap is an important part of fiscal framework, and it plays a crucial | :44:36. | :44:38. | |
role in delivering our commitment for a sustainable and affordable | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
welfare system. Our welfare reforms are creating a system which makes | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
sure a always pays, is fair to those who receive it, but also to those | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
who pay for it. The independent Office for Budget Responsibility | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
assess performance against the welfare cap at Autumn Statement and | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
it is now forecast that the current cap will not be met in each year | :45:00. | :45:05. | |
until 2020, 21. A similar debate was held in this House on the 16th of | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
December 2015 on the beach of the welfare cap in the years 's 20 18 | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
and 20 Flash 19. Resulting from the recession not to pursue the tax | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
credits measure proposed at Summer Budget 2015. This has agreed that | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
the breach of the gap in the earlier years of the forecast period is | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
justified and that no further debate will be required on this specific | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
matter. There the motion we are putting today before the House seeks | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
agreement on the justification of the breach of the cap in the later | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
years of the forecast period to stop that is in 2019, 2020, and 2020, 20 | :45:38. | :45:46. | |
21. I would may like to outline the reasons for which the cap is | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
forecast not to be met. This is due to inflation and spend on disability | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
benefits, partly due to the decision not to pursue the personal | :45:55. | :45:56. | |
independence payment measure proposed that budget 2016. As the | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
her decision not to pursue tax credits measure, the government has | :46:02. | :46:04. | |
once more listened and responded to public concerns and decided not to | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
pursue the ginger is personal independence payment. Higher | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
forecast inflation is another factor contributing to the cap not being | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
met in 2020, and 21. In view of the uncertainty facing the economy, | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
inflation is now forecast to be higher than when the cap was set at | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
Summer Budget 2015. I would like to reassure this House that the latest | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
forecasts do not mean that welfare spending is out of control. As my | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
right honourable friend the Chancellor announced at Autumn | :46:35. | :46:37. | |
Statement, we will deliver the welfare savings we have already | :46:38. | :46:40. | |
announced and legislated for. I would also like to repeat that the | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
government has no plans for further welfare savings in this Parliament. | :46:45. | :46:48. | |
This Government believes that work is the best route out of poverty. | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
This is why we want a welfare system which helps people who can work get | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
back into work, but also supports those in most need. Our welfare | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
reforms are working. Employment has risen by two million since 2010, and | :47:02. | :47:08. | |
is now at a record high of 74. Unemployment is at an 11 year low. | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
Universal credit is revolutionising the welfare system, enshrining the | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
principle but working more always pays more. And at the benefit cap, | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
we are restoring fairness to the system whilst ensuring there is a | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
clear incentive to work. There are now over 1 million fewer people on | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
edge over benefits. Three million disabled people are now in | :47:30. | :47:32. | |
employment, and in the last three years, the number of disabled people | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
in work has increased by nearly 600,000. We also want a welfare | :47:37. | :47:45. | |
system which is a strong safety net for those who need it. I will | :47:46. | :47:47. | |
indeed. To the Minister confirm whether it is still the government's | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
commitment to half the disability employment gap by 2020? I am sure he | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
will avert my honourable friend the Minister for disabled people who | :47:57. | :48:00. | |
find work and she has made the point repeatedly that we are determined to | :48:01. | :48:03. | |
reduce the disability employment gap and are incredibly hard to do it but | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
acknowledge more needs to be done. The welfare cap plays an important | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
role in ensuring that the welfare bill is both sustainable and | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
affordable. We introduced the gap to bring welfare spending under | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
control, and have done so. The system inherited was unaffordable | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
and unsustainable. Under Labour, welfare spending increased by almost | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
60% in real terms. The number of households were not never had ever | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
worked nearly doubled and unemployment went up by 450 7000. As | :48:32. | :48:38. | |
part of continuous commitment to a sustainable welfare system, the | :48:39. | :48:42. | |
Chancellor announced at Autumn Statement the introduction of a new | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
welfare cap. -- under Labour, unemployment went up by 400 7000. | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
The government is firmly committed to returning the public finances | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
back to balance as soon as is practical. Given the uncertainty we | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
are currently facing, it is important to allow for enough | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
applicability to support the economy. That is why we are changing | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
the fiscal framework and introducing a new welfare cap as part of this. | :49:04. | :49:10. | |
The new cap set a target for welfare spending in 21, 22, with eight | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
partly for welfare spending in the years before that. Then new cap is | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
set in line with the latest autumn spending spending forecast. The | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
scope of the new cap remains unchanged. The Office for Budget | :49:24. | :49:25. | |
Responsibility will continue to assess performance against the new | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
cap, and if the cap is assessed as preached, ministers will still need | :49:32. | :49:33. | |
to hold a debate and justify the bridge in this House, or proposed | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
steps to bring spending within the level of the cap. This House will | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
have the opportunity in due course to debate and agree the new fiscal | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
framework, including the new welfare cap, which was put forward by my | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
right honourable friend the Chancellor at Autumn Statement. I | :49:49. | :49:55. | |
commend this motion to the House. The question is, the motion on the | :49:56. | :50:01. | |
welfare cap is on the order paper. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It | :50:02. | :50:05. | |
is always a pleasure to be here when you are in the chair. I take a | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
slightly different view from the Minister, as you probably will have | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
gathered, made Deputy Speaker. I will go on to the details in a. But | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
really, this is, as the Minister was able to acknowledge, the second | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
time, the second year that the government has had to come to the | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
House to explain again why they have breached their own cap. The | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
government has been forced to come to explain their failure, not just | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
around breaching their own social security cap but also in terms of | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
the economy. Just as a quick point of qualification, Madam Deputy | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
Speaker, because I am sure it did not exceed you, -- is give you, this | :50:49. | :50:56. | |
Government has spent, in the years 2010-2015, 100 and ?30 billion more | :50:57. | :51:00. | |
than the previously the government spends between 2000 and 2010. So, | :51:01. | :51:11. | |
this Government has spent more... So, that is absolutely... | :51:12. | :51:20. | |
HUSHED chatter IT IS VERY INTERESTING THAT THEY | :51:21. | :51:23. | |
SHOULD TAKE THAT APPROACH, BUT I WILL GO ON. FIRST OF ALL, IT TURNED | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
OUT REALLY THAT THE LONG-TERM ECONOMIC PLAN WAS NOTHING MORE, | :51:29. | :51:34. | |
really, than a long-term economic failure would have been slightly | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
more apt. I will come onto the record number of jobs that the | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
honourable gentleman is trying... Order, we cannot have interventions | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
from the Flip's bench. Just cannot, even when there is nobody else here! | :51:51. | :51:52. | |
We just cannot! That's fine. I have no problems | :51:53. | :52:05. | |
answering the gentleman who made the comment. More jobs. 80% of the | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
increase in employment is in self-employment and less than | :52:13. | :52:20. | |
half... Those are the facts. Less than half of those in | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
self-employment are earning less than the living wage. Growth is | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
down, borrowing is up again, inflation on the rise, have set | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
targets hopelessly missed and productivity is flat-lining. The ONS | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
has described it as unprecedented. The worst levels of productive itty | :52:44. | :52:50. | |
since the Second World War. Of course, we know that productivity is | :52:51. | :52:55. | |
the driver around wage growth and I'll mention in a little while that | :52:56. | :53:00. | |
we are seeing stagnant wage growth as well as precarious levels of | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
employment, as well. The government has failed every single one of their | :53:07. | :53:13. | |
fiscal targets, so much so that at the Autumn Statement they had to | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
define a new set. They promised an economy based on high wages and | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
lower social security spending where work always pays but in over six | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
years they have done nothing to deliver the high skill, high wage, | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
productive economy that this country desperately needs to compete in the | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
global market. As a result of their own failures, once again the | :53:37. | :53:39. | |
government has breached their own welfare cap, not just this year and | :53:40. | :53:48. | |
last but every year in a four and five year term. They have missed by | :53:49. | :53:55. | |
5 billion, 6 billion, seven billion and 8 billion. A record of the | :53:56. | :54:03. | |
complete and utter failure of their economic strategy. The government | :54:04. | :54:11. | |
has sought to cover up their economic incompetence and take it | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
out on the working poor, sick and disabled, raining down austerity on | :54:16. | :54:21. | |
the most vulnerable in our society. Six wasted years while the poorest | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
have picked up the bill with a full four years of failure yet to come. | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
This is a far cry from the former Chancellor's proclamation in 2014 | :54:35. | :54:38. | |
that the welfare cap makes an important moment in the development | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
of the welfare state and ensures that never again can the costs | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
spiral out of control. All the evidence is to the contrary. The | :54:49. | :54:55. | |
government have failed to tackle any of the drivers of Social Security | :54:56. | :55:04. | |
spending. It's incredulous to watch this government as it bounced | :55:05. | :55:09. | |
aimlessly from one broken promise to another. Whatever their favoured | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
slogan, it's clear that gimmicks and grandstanding are all this | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
government is capable of. In the motion we are debating today, they | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
claim that they couldn't meet their own rules due to Social Security | :55:26. | :55:32. | |
support for disabled people and higher than expected inflation. As | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
ever, they are pointing the finger of blame at the most vulnerable | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
rather than apologising for their own economic mismanagement. Let's | :55:41. | :55:52. | |
take the details. The office of budgetary responsibility predicted | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
that the government would spend 120.5 billion in 2020. Of this, the | :55:56. | :56:13. | |
changes in forecast for CPI inflation will increase spending by | :56:14. | :56:20. | |
8p in total. Less than a percentage point of total spending inside the | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
cab. It can hardly be said to be the major driver of the government's | :56:26. | :56:30. | |
failures to keep its promises. The government has lost control of the | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
economy if it ever had it in the first place and fail to tackle the | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
key drivers of Social Security spending, other than pensions. | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
Low-paid work and high housing costs. Furthermore, the government | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
claim that increased disability spending will cause a breach of the | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
cap is just another attempt to point the people the Li finger at sick and | :56:53. | :57:00. | |
disabled people. From the front benches there has been no language | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
around the shirker, scrounge a narrative that we have seen in | :57:07. | :57:13. | |
recent years. That is a very welcome move. I'm not clear whether this | :57:14. | :57:21. | |
extends to press releases from CC HQ and coverage from less responsible | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
sections of the media. We must be careful of our language in this | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
respect. And even if it's not using such derogative tree terms as | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
shirker and scrounger what's implied by incentivising, getting people | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
who'd been found not fit for work, what is the implication there? That | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
they are avoiding work, that's it their choice to avoid work instead | :57:47. | :57:53. | |
of being in productive work. That is offensive to so many people. Instead | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
of blaming everybody else for the mess, they should start taking | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
responsibility. It's not just those on this side of the house making | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
these points. The UN committee on the rise of disabled persons | :58:06. | :58:16. | |
described the approach as a grave and systematic violation of disabled | :58:17. | :58:28. | |
people's rights. We have had comment from members of the government. They | :58:29. | :58:35. | |
all raise concerns about the lack of evidence of many of the government's | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
Social Security policies and their punitive effects. I'm pleased that | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
the minister was able to say that they had taken the view that because | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
of tax credits and the implications that would have on the working poor | :58:49. | :58:53. | |
that they have decided not to proceed with that but what about | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
work allowances around universal credit. These are the same people. | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
The taper rate will make a difference of a couple of hundred | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
pounds per year instead of the net effect of over ?2000 a year. Madame | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
Deputy Speaker, if I may, I wanted to explore some of the real reasons | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
the government has failed to meet its promise. They are not tackle the | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
drivers of Social Security spending. Rather than creating a strong | :59:25. | :59:29. | |
economy of high wages, progression in the labour market, affordable | :59:30. | :59:35. | |
housing and child the government has starred the economy of much-needed | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
investment leading to six wasted years of austerity. This is not just | :59:39. | :59:46. | |
our analysis. In every regard, the evidence speaks for itself. This | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
government are projected to spend more than ?20 billion a year on | :59:52. | :59:57. | |
housing benefit, after pensions, the second largest area of security | :59:58. | :00:03. | |
spending. -- Social Security. Nearly half go straight into the pockets of | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
private landlords. All well, the government figures show that the | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
number of affordable homes being built has slumped to a 24 year low. | :00:13. | :00:20. | |
Indeed, research by the Joseph Rowntree foundation says we need to | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
build 80,000 homes per year to keep the current situation is stable. | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
This year, we have managed just 30,000. Instead of building | :00:31. | :00:38. | |
affordable homes they have forced the sale of a reminder of our | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
socially rented stock worsening house prices and driving up housing | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
benefit spending. This is one of the key reasons that they have breached | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
their own cap. In relation to in work support for people in low paid | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
jobs, onto above this we are seeing there has been a real squeeze in | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
this support. We will be spending over ?15 billion on tax credits in | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
the two years in question in this motion because the government has | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
failed to ensure that wages keep up with the cost of living leaving many | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
working people reliant on top ups to get by. Real wages are set to remain | :01:15. | :01:22. | |
lower in 2021 than they were in 2008. Yet the Tories still turn | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
their back on working people by trying to cut the tax credits | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
available under their failed austerity plans. Likewise, the | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
government has weakened incentives to work by cutting billions from | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
programmes under their austerity plans. Their meagre reduction in the | :01:41. | :01:52. | |
taper rate doesn't touch the annual 2000 cut that I've mentioned. If the | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
Chancellor was serious about reducing Social Security spending he | :01:59. | :02:01. | |
would implement a real living wage culture related on the basis of what | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
people need. This would ensure that people get a fair and proper wage | :02:06. | :02:12. | |
for a working day while reducing expenditure of the state. I'm afraid | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
that our Chancellor isn't capable of making such an obvious decision | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
despite the fact that the living wage commission has shown that the | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
government's National within -- living wage falls far short. He is | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
chopped 10p per hour of the previously increased... The average | :02:32. | :02:45. | |
wage will be ?1000 lower in 2020 then predicted that the last budget. | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
How can we ever read juice of Social Security spending if the government | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
won't act on wages. High wages alone won't clear up the mess. We need to | :02:57. | :03:10. | |
tackle the drivers. Four out of every five low-paid workers are | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
still low paid ten years later. There is no automatic progression to | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
higher pay. Further proof of the deep structural problems we face in | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
the labour market. Finally, we should turn our attention to the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
disability employment gap which this government said they would half by | :03:30. | :03:35. | |
2020. Grateful for the intervention from my honourable friend earlier. | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
Instead, we seen that at the end of last year it reduced and we are now | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
back up to the level it was just before the general election last | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
year. I have is they plan to force people into work before they are | :03:50. | :03:58. | |
ready to do so. Mounting examples of the government's flawed strategy. | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
Why has the government not acted to prove retention of disabled people | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
in their current jobs which could help people transitioning into | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
employment. That currently stands at 350,000. Keeping disabled people in | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
their jobs would surely be a better strategy to bring down Social | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
Security spending than slashing support for those further away from | :04:27. | :04:29. | |
the labour market. Sadly, this government has been unable to see | :04:30. | :04:35. | |
that far and their record on supporting retention is very poor. I | :04:36. | :04:44. | |
thank the honourable lady for giving way. With the honourable lady agree | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
that the fact that the OBR would be breached in all of its years of | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
forecast. It is not working due to the fact that the government... An | :04:58. | :05:07. | |
example would be concentric where lots of people would be taken off | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
benefits. The numbers are very difficult to forecast. It's an | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
interesting question. I'd have to look at the figures. What I have to | :05:19. | :05:26. | |
show is the high cost of housing is a real issue as is low-paid work. | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
There are a number of factors but these are the key drivers for it. It | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
shows that the government really should have been more careful in | :05:36. | :05:38. | |
their impact assessment when they set out with their policy in the | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
first place. To conclude, this breach of the government's | :05:44. | :05:46. | |
self-imposed welfare cap every year for five years is further proof of | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
the government's that a failure on the economy. They have refused to | :05:51. | :05:59. | |
attack fundamental areas that are driving social service spending. | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
Only Labour has an economic strategy that will bring the cost of Social | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
Security down without freeing the safety net that we all rely on. Now | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
is the time to invest in the housing we need, offer a decent wage for a | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
working day and support people to find a job, keep a job and progress | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
in their chosen work. We will transform our Social Security system | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
to ensure that, like the NHS, it is therefore all others in our time of | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
need. Part of our plan to provide a stronger, fair settlement for all in | :06:39. | :06:39. | |
our country. It is a pleasure to contribute in | :06:40. | :06:50. | |
this very important debate. I wish to burst of all pay tribute to the | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
Minister, who showed that she had a genuinely deep understanding issues. | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
She already has a record of being very willing to engage with | :07:01. | :07:04. | |
particularly the charitable groups with their huge wealth of | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
experience, which we as a government do well to listen to to help shape | :07:08. | :07:12. | |
future policies. This is an important debate because it does | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
focus our minds. It has set a clear marker and we have to justify if we | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
deviate from the original plans. It was interesting listening to that | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
last speech. On one hand, the Shadow minister was saying the government | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
has spent something like 100 more, but then criticised seeing we were | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
not spending sufficient money in every area. -- 100 more. It is right | :07:33. | :07:39. | |
to focus our minds, because of the soul and the last Labour government, | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
were welfare was left to drift, were the number of workless households | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
doubled, an extra half a million people abandoned to an employment, | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
this is real people who were in desperate need for the right | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
support. Through our strong economic growth, and I am not sure what the | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
shadow minister was referring to, because it is still the strongest of | :08:00. | :08:02. | |
any major developed economy, we have seen record employment. That is not | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
just the south east, that is in every single region of the country. | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
In my own constituency, because I know you're all desperate to know, | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
it is 8100 more people in work since the general election. Even greater | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
than the number of people who go to the County ground to watch the | :08:19. | :08:29. | |
mighty Swindon town, and we have an 11 year low in terms of an | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
apartment. We have introduced the National Living Wage, directly | :08:33. | :08:33. | |
benefiting 2.75 million of our lowest earners. The income tax | :08:34. | :08:35. | |
threshold rises year-on-year, taking 2.3 million people out of paying any | :08:36. | :08:38. | |
income tax at all. And as wages have grown on average about 2% this year, | :08:39. | :08:44. | |
we are seeing the the lowest earners' wages rise by an average of | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
6%, in addition to the welcome extension of free childcare, | :08:49. | :08:51. | |
creating more opportunities for people to work. With the recent | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
green paper announcement, there is a real opportunity to build on the | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
progress that has been made. Particularly if we look at the 500 | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
more disabled people in work in the last two years. -- you more than | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
half a million people. 48% of people are expected to be in work, disabled | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
people, up from 40% when we came to office. We still have work to go but | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
if we taught the charitable groups who work in this area, they are | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
encouraged that we are going in the right direction. The key thing here | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
is to make sure we deliver a tailored individual support, because | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
for those still looking for work, there are challenges. It is not as | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
simple as going to just learn to have your CV and training for your | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
interviewing. We are right to look at delivering more tailored support | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
to make further progress in delivering more people into work and | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
thus reducing the welfare spending. We also are right to identify that | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
we have to do joined up work with health, because a lot of those | :09:49. | :09:51. | |
people now looking for work will also have to navigate health | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
challenges, and they need that support and the support at the | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
beginning. Bravely, we are introducing the small employer | :09:59. | :10:00. | |
offered to proactively engage with employers to provide opportunities | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
for those people playing by the rules, working with the support on | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
offer, they need that opportunity at the end of the process to actually | :10:10. | :10:12. | |
go into work. The announcement on disability apprentices, the increase | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
in funding to access to work and universal credit, which has | :10:16. | :10:21. | |
universal support across all sides, reinforces the point that work | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
should always pay and it recognises a welfare system that is fair to | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
those that receive it and to those who pay for it. Crucially removing | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
the 16 hour cliff edge will, providing on average 13% more time | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
for the claimant to look, and most importantly for me, for the first | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
time ever, a claimant has a named contact who can help them navigate | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
not just looking for work but dealing with all the different forms | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
of benefit, the extra support they will meet and crucially, when they | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
go into work, will continue to provide support. Until now, we as is | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
a society would help people get into work, wish them all the best and | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
that would be a lot on that we would have with them unless they came back | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
looking for work again. Whereas now, rightly, we are recognising that | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
those people taking often the first step into work may need support. It | :11:08. | :11:11. | |
could be that those people lack confidence, and if they had been | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
attending work regularly and engaging in the right that named | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
coach can help them look to increase their hours, increased their | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
responsibility and earn more money in work. One of the things that I | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
would like to see in my constituency, and across the whole | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
of the UK, would be incentives for small and medium businesses who view | :11:34. | :11:37. | |
it's difficult to perhaps encourage disabled people to gain employment. | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
Does he feel that perhaps maybe what we have not seen so far is that | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
encouragement for small and medium businesses to do just that? | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
That is a really important point. What we do see a large employers, | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
with the HR teams, their personnel teams, highly educated and well | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
resourced, are very good at making those changes, often just small | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
changes, to take full advantage of those disabled people who are | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
looking to work you have got great skills, great abilities, that can | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
fill the skills gap that there. But often those small and medium-sized | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
businesses do not have that confidence and the skills, or are | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
not even aware of that talent that is available. That is widely small | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
employer pilot was so important, because that is literally going | :12:21. | :12:24. | |
around industrial parks, business parks, the shops, and literally | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
seeing where are your are your skills gaps and we will go and match | :12:32. | :12:34. | |
them to those people looking for work. We have had some really | :12:35. | :12:36. | |
encouraging results from those pilots. I did an event in my own | :12:37. | :12:40. | |
constituency, and managed to blues about 22 people because they got | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
small and medium-sized employers who had never thought about this too | :12:44. | :12:45. | |
actually come forward and say where their skills gaps where. The final | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
area and wanted to touch on... Yes. He has made the point, rightly, that | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
the rate of employment amongst disabled people has risen, but of | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
course the overall employment rate has risen as well. The disability | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
employment gap has not been reduced. Why does he think there has not been | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
any progress on that particular issue? I know that the honourable | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
member has been very diligent on this and is determined to be | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
proactive in supporting disabled people having that opportunity, and | :13:17. | :13:19. | |
the reality is because the growing economy is benefiting everyone. | :13:20. | :13:25. | |
Perversely, if we had a recession, and the last time we had one, we saw | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
the disability gap shrinks because actually the non-disabled people | :13:31. | :13:32. | |
were coming out for work at a quicker rate than the disabled | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
people. We would not celebrate that, the closing of the gap of disabled | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
people out of work. Greater Manchester I will now have to decide | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
what is the way to go. I personally, for what it is worth, think the only | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
thing that matters is that more disabled people, as quickly as | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
possible, year-on-year, should have an opportunity for work. And what we | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
should be looking at is for example, when we came to office and we said | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
that the Prime Minister, the temporary minister, said he wished | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
to half to be disability and climate gap, we should be trying to get | :14:05. | :14:07. | |
there as quickly as possible, that target, looking at it annually and | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
I'm not that something that they stakeholders working on. That we | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
needed to demonstrate annually that we were making real, tangible | :14:15. | :14:20. | |
progress. So far, 500 more disabled people in work in the last three | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
years is is good but there is still much more that needs to be done. -- | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
more than half a million more disabled people. We are now spending | :14:29. | :14:31. | |
more than ?3 billion more per year. That is a welcome figure. It | :14:32. | :14:35. | |
recognises the fact that under the old system of DLA only 16.5% of | :14:36. | :14:42. | |
women accessed the higher grade of benefit to stop under the new | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
system, it is about 22. The system better recognises particularly | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
hidden impairments, in particular mental health. And it is right that | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
we are getting the support to the most vulnerable people in society as | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
quickly as we can. But I do have an ask and that is that everybody in | :14:59. | :15:03. | |
Parliament recognises we have a growing challenge with mental health | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
conditions in this country. Whether that is people in work, people | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
trying to get into work, people in their everyday lives. Something like | :15:11. | :15:13. | |
one in four people at some point will have a mental health condition. | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
And actually, our government, and I suspect whoever was the government, | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
would look to commit additional funding for supporting people with | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
mental health conditions. One of the challenges of nobody has quite | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
answered what is the best way to direct that support to provide it. | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
There is lots of different pilots going on but I think we have a real | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
opportunity, because the one area where we are identifying people with | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
mental health conditions is through the net benefit. But we do not do | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
anything with. We do not send post those people who have gone through | :15:46. | :15:47. | |
the system and have been identified with a mental health system to the | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
additional support the NHS can offer, local charities, groups etc. | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
I am not looking to try to get people off these benefits, I am | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
trying to... Yes I thank him for giving way, I am sorry I came in | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
late. I missed the earlier part of the speech. People with mental | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
health disabilities, it is not so easy for them to get benefits, to be | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
quite frank, because I have got a number of cases now where people | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
with mental health, and disabilities, have had their | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
benefits. Without any notice. -- have had their benefits stopped | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
without any notice. The overall picture from DLA where our round | :16:27. | :16:33. | |
about 20% would access the benefit, it is somewhere in the region of 80% | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
under this new system. There is still work to be done and we have | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
fantastic organisations like Mind, with proactive suggestions about how | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
we can make improvements, but were we have identified people, we should | :16:47. | :16:48. | |
then be same posting them to the additional support that is | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
available. We all know, through on his work, that often people who have | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
experienced mental health conditions did not know where to turn. There is | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
not a good book that says this is where you should go. And if we have | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
identified somebody with a mental condition, I think we have a duty to | :17:04. | :17:09. | |
do our very best to work with those organisations to signpost them for | :17:10. | :17:11. | |
any help, for that they once again can share the same opportunities | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
that all of us take for granted. This is an important debate. It is | :17:16. | :17:18. | |
right that we are increasing spending for the most vulnerable | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
people in society, rightly we are helping give people the opportunity | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
to go into work. The statistics showing that these are real people | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
who are benefiting from our strong economic growth and I would urge the | :17:29. | :17:31. | |
government to keep pressing forward with a positive action that we are | :17:32. | :17:42. | |
taking. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
the honourable member. He has been a loyal supporter of the government | :17:46. | :17:47. | |
from the backbenches over the last few months and it sounds very much | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
like it is a job application that he is putting into the pro Minister, as | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
much of anything else! Well, you never know! -- the Prime Minister. | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
Another page of the CAP called into question what the point of it was in | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
the first place. -- a breach of the gap. And the means to reduce welfare | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
spending, it continues to be inflexible and unworkable, and when | :18:09. | :18:10. | |
we look at the motion which is before us this evening, and the | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
words from the Minister at the dispatch box, we have a mea culpa, | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
or were admitting that this is effectively gone for the next four | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
years. We will not have the situation were the Minister will | :18:23. | :18:25. | |
have to continue to come back to the dispatch box and the Apple not | :18:26. | :18:27. | |
working, because we have now given them a blank cheque for the next | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
three or four years, and I guess we should welcome. But we should really | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
be talking about the fundamentals, the economic circumstances that are | :18:36. | :18:38. | |
getting nothing into this place in the first case. What we really need | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
to have not the sound used to have of long-term economic plan, but a | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
real plan to make sure that we are boosting investment and productivity | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
in this this country. The challenge and delivering that has just got | :18:52. | :18:53. | |
that little bit harder, as a consequence of Brexit. That is | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
really why I suspect we are having the debate today. It was always | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
going to be about circumstances, and Brexit, the ball on the value of the | :19:03. | :19:04. | |
pound, the declining confidence in future growth has had its impact on | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
bringing the government to the dispatch box in this display that we | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
have seen this evening. Madame Deputy Speaker, the Chancellor | :19:12. | :19:19. | |
missed his opportunity and social security to give the reform that he | :19:20. | :19:22. | |
claims to be just about managing families. We should have focused on | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
addressing the underlying root causes of poverty by addressing | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
unemployment and Employment Support Allowance we acknowledge the | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
government have had to abandon its targets on the wealth gap and the | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
resources are welcome, having used the capital as a source for cuts. | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, the CAP is a reprehensible and regressive measure | :19:45. | :19:46. | |
that places the burden on the UK Government's field economic strategy | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
on the shoulders of the most disadvantaged in society. We should | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
remind ourselves that the welfare cap was a flagship for the | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
government in the last parliament. It ended up as a tool to fund more | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
cuts that the Treasury has used and abused to squeeze resources from the | :20:05. | :20:07. | |
Department for Work and Pensions. Well, the new Chancellor again will | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
have to breach the target set before him. We ask him to acknowledge that | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
the sheer fact that this Government cannot even stick to its own targets | :20:16. | :20:19. | |
proves the inflexibility of the welfare cap is unworkable and the | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
fact that we have reached it again and again illustrates not the desire | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
to give the guidance to forego the cap for the next four years but to | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
abandon the captaincy policy for good. An arbitrate cap these times | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
of uncertainty is neither useful or adequate, as the government's | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
previews bridges have shown. The best way to reduce and manage | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
welfare spending is to restore the economy to a healthy state, not to | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
hit the most disadvantaged with the bill. The cap will not address the | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
underlying structural problems that are keeping people reliant on Social | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
Security, including low pay and why later, Labour market of and. -- | :21:00. | :21:06. | |
wider labour market an apology. The fact that people cannot afford to be | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
rent because of high housing costs should prompt the government to | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
understand that the lives of welfare is more than a reliance. The only | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
way we are going to address the housing costs is by making sure we | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
can address the issue of supply into the housing market. Something the | :21:25. | :21:26. | |
government has singularly failed to do. The IFS said on the welfare cap | :21:27. | :21:33. | |
target the Conservative government already has the unimpressive record | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
of meeting zero to three of its fiscal targets. The government's new | :21:40. | :21:45. | |
Lennon swell the cap will disproportionally target the | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
benefits claimed by the least well off, was played in 2014. The Green | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
budget from 2016, IFS, said in practice the welfare cap has proved | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
much less binding. Spending is already forecast to exceed the cap | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
for each of the next three fiscal years. In other words, even though | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
the welfare cap has only been in operation for less than two years, | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
since March 2014, it has already been broken consistently by the | :22:12. | :22:14. | |
Chancellor. It is therefore not clear whether it remains a real | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
constraint on the government's actions. The IFS we right then and | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
are today. What is the point of the cap is the principle when it is | :22:24. | :22:29. | |
bridged time and time again? It is, in effect, no constraint on what the | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
government are doing, or what they should be doing. It is unworkable, | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
it is meaningless. It was simply assault to show government was was | :22:38. | :22:42. | |
taking tough, talking tough yet paying more regard to changing | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
circumstances. It is daft intellectually, morally and | :22:47. | :22:46. | |
ethically. It is a drop in the ocean with | :22:47. | :23:03. | |
millions of cuts to come over the years. On a zone, it will not | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
mitigate these cuts or have they have been found. Instead, the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
Government should reverse the cuts to the work allowance in full so | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
that working parents in low-paid jobs shouldn't lose out. The rate at | :23:15. | :23:23. | |
which supporters were redrawn from low-income households for low-income | :23:24. | :23:35. | |
credits were less... The SNP have consistently argued against the | :23:36. | :23:41. | |
productions and frequently stopped it. It is going to come back to bite | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
next April. Hitting the just about managing families on middle incomes. | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
The maximum gains from this 2% reduction is only around ?500. This | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
falls short of what low and middle income families need to manage. And | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
the maximum losses are around ?2800. That is the reality of what is | :24:10. | :24:16. | |
happening under this Government. People of the Revolution | :24:17. | :24:18. | |
foundational said when it comes to managing just about managing | :24:19. | :24:20. | |
people's family, all roads lead to people's family, all roads lead | :24:21. | :24:22. | |
universal credit. The boost universal credit. The boost | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
effective way to reduce it is... A modest reduction will instead leave | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
a bitter speech -- sweet taste. Now the V welfare cat | :24:33. | :24:57. | |
has gone, why doesn't the Government come and reassess these challenges, | :24:58. | :25:04. | |
why don't they reassess? The losses of families on universal credit and | :25:05. | :25:13. | |
let's not forget that... It is clear that the Tories have not yet | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
abandoned the austerity. For all their rhetoric in there just about | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
managing is, they are still not managing. We welcome the Rock will | :25:22. | :25:31. | |
be no more spending cuts, but the cuts that they are planning to do, | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
mean that there will be much to do in this Parliament. In terms of the | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
Scottish parliament and Social Security committee, specialist at | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
Sheffield Hallam University show that by 2021, Scotland can expect to | :25:49. | :25:56. | |
use just over 1 million a dear. -- 1 billion. -- expect to lose. It will | :25:57. | :26:06. | |
be delivered by this west Minster Government. Merry Christmas. | :26:07. | :26:15. | |
Sheffield Hallam also say that the reforms are all ready costing | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
claimants in Scotland just over 1.1 billion a year. This brings that | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
accumulative loss expected of up to more than 2 billion a year. Deputy | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
Speaker, we will not grow the economy by taking cash out of the | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
pockets of the poorest. We will fix the economy. We will fix the debt | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
and deficit by putting in place measures that will grow the economy. | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
This obsession with punishing the poor must stop. The UK Government is | :26:45. | :26:56. | |
saving a whopping 30 million in 2017 and 2018 rising to 450 million in | :26:57. | :27:04. | |
2020, 20 one. This is from the cuts of universal credit. These figures | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
updated on March 20 15. Already, we have seen Tory backbenchers rise | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
again and again and vote with us against these policies. It is high | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
time the Government listened to its own members even if it will not | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
listen to us on this side of the house. An analysis by the Institute | :27:28. | :27:35. | |
of policy research said it would cost a good deal of money. Why will | :27:36. | :27:41. | |
the Government not to what would affect people? The UK Government are | :27:42. | :27:49. | |
still dragging their feet with a lack of ambition to really tackle | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
low pay. The UK Government National Government living wage. Madam Deputy | :27:55. | :28:03. | |
is bigger, the real living wage is calculate it against the basic cost | :28:04. | :28:11. | |
of living and takes into account basic things to allow a minimum | :28:12. | :28:18. | |
standard. Why is it not recommended that they should be given that? | :28:19. | :28:27. | |
Fundamentally this challenges the value of an organisation providing | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
independent advice of levels of wage across the UK. Will they begin to | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
accept that advice? The Scottish National Party supports payment and | :28:41. | :28:42. | |
promotion of the real living wage. In Scotland, the SNP continues to | :28:43. | :28:49. | |
set the bar on paperwork. The First Minister welcomed the new living | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
wage which will benefit thousands of staff in Scotland and urge more | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
businesses in Scotland to sign up to the living wage. The rise of 20p | :29:03. | :29:11. | |
will impact many workers. I conclude by reiterating the best way to | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
reduce and manage welfare spending is to restore the economy to a | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
healthy state, not to hit the most disadvantaged with the bell. | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
Austerity is a choice, not a necessity. This failed accession has | :29:25. | :29:33. | |
failed. It is time for a strategy that focuses on fair and clear wage. | :29:34. | :29:42. | |
Westminster delivering ongoing austerity, we are all paying the | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
price for this. Question is the motion on the welfare cap as on the | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
order paper. As many of that opinion say I. The aye have it. I will put | :29:52. | :30:08. | |
motions through 45 and six together. Minister to move. The question is as | :30:09. | :30:17. | |
on the order paper. As many on the opinion say aye. On the contrary say | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
no. The aye have it, the aye have it. We now to delete Mac come to | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
issue number seven. Minister to move. I beg to move. The question is | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
on question of seven. As many of on question of seven. As many of | :30:34. | :30:37. | |
that opinion say aye. On the contrary know. No. | :30:38. | :31:56. | |
Order! The question is motion number seven as on the order paper. Those | :31:57. | :32:10. | |
of that opinion say aye. Aye. On the contrary no. | :32:11. | :38:44. | |
The ayes to the right, 252. The noes to the left, 103. Of those members | :38:45. | :43:10. | |
representing constituencies in England, the ayes to the right, 239. | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
The noes to the left, 86. The ayes to the right, 252. The noes | :43:15. | :43:34. | |
to the left, 103. For those members representing constituencies in | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
England, the ayes to the right, 239. The noes to the left, 86. On both | :43:39. | :43:47. | |
counts, the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Unlock! We now come to | :43:48. | :43:59. | |
motion number nine. Relating to the culture, media and sport committee. | :44:00. | :44:10. | |
Mr Bill Wiggins. I beg to move. I welcome to number eight shortly. We | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
will do number nine. Mr Wiggin has moved, number nine. The question is | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to | :44:20. | :44:25. | |
the contrary, "No." The ayes have it, the ayes have it. | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
Now we come to motion number eight on multinational financial framework | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
mid-term review and revision. I beg to move. The question is as on the | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
order paper. As many as are of the opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, | :44:42. | :44:46. | |
"No." The ayes have it, the ayes have it. | :44:47. | :44:57. | |
Presentation of public petitions, Mr Peter Bone. Thank you, Madam Deputy | :44:58. | :45:00. | |
Speaker. This is a grassroots petition, it just shows that in this | :45:01. | :45:07. | |
day of multimedia and everything, you can actually campaign at a local | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
level, and it is this edition that has been organised by Ken Chapman, | :45:13. | :45:15. | |
Dennis Randall and Julia Murphy. It is about an alteration to a road | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
which I'm sure the highways authority but was a very good idea | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
but it dramatically affects the people of Ashton Grove, and the | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
petition is signed by virtually everyone there and they are very | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
concerned at the effect of this alteration to the road and what it | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
will have on the neighbourhood. The petition reads, to the honourable | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
Commons of the United Kingdom and Parliament assembled, the humble | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
petitions of the residents of Ashton growth Northants shows that the | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
petitioners believe the development of the APhi 09 should not go ahead | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
due to the reduction in safety, the increase to noise and air pollution | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
and the privacy concerns that raising the road and removing the | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
trees would cause to the residents of Ashton growth. Wherefore your | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
petitioners pray that you honourable House urges the Department for | :46:10. | :46:12. | |
Transport to encourage Northants County Council to reassess their | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
plans were the A509 and amend them in consultation with local | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
residents. Your petitioners as duty-bound will ever pray, etc. | :46:23. | :46:41. | |
Petition, A509 development, Ashton growth. I beg to move that this has | :46:42. | :46:48. | |
meant an hour journey. The question is that this House do now adjourned. | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
Thank you. I am grateful that the House has been given this | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
opportunity tonight to consider the limitation of European Union data | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
protection laws and look for to a robust and constructive response | :47:03. | :47:04. | |
from the Minister. Let me start by stating the obvious. The way we | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
send, receive, collect, analyse news -- and use data has been transformed | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
the last few decades. That transformation is only going to | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
become more marked as time goes on. It is truly amazing that around 90% | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
of global data that exists today was created in just the last two years. | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
That amount is predicted to grow year-on-year for the next decade. I | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
was staggered to learn that Transport For London recorded 4.5 | :47:33. | :47:38. | |
million pieces of information about Foss movement every single day. A | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
far cry from the old days. Significant opportunities presented | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
by this growth of big data, a term which refers to the growth of large, | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
context data that can be analysed to provide valuable new insights and | :47:56. | :48:00. | |
personalised services. As our lives become increasingly digitised, the | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
growth of big data means equally big implications for privacy, and | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
consequently very big questions on policymakers regarding how we should | :48:10. | :48:12. | |
most appropriately regulated this digital revolution to protect the | :48:13. | :48:15. | |
rights of the individual. Without stifling the flexibility to | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
innovate. Of course, the vote to leave the EU has created a much more | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
uncertain context within which we are approaching this complex issue, | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
with the UK's data protection rules closely intertwined with European | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Union law. As I will argue, it is vital for the UK to have a strong | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
data protection system which is in line with European Union standards. | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
We need to be part of a strong, open digital come across Europe which | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
will be critical if we are to remain globally competitive. As Tech UK has | :48:48. | :48:53. | |
pointed out, and I thank them for their assistance, as the leading | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
digital economy in Europe, the UK has the most to gain and conversely | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
the most to lose than the European data collection -- data protection | :49:05. | :49:06. | |
landscape. Whatever our future relationship with Europe, | :49:07. | :49:09. | |
information will have to flow freely if we want to remain part of the | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
growing global digital economy. I shall be cheering the Parliamentary | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
group on data analytics, which is looking at issues surrounding growth | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
of big data. Let us move to some history. The basis of EU data | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
protection law is the 1995 data protection directive, which was | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
fermented into UK law by the Data Protection Act of 1998. -- which was | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
fermented. But EU member states have permitted the most from it, | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
resulting in divergences and enforcement. Of course, the world | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
has also changed dramatically over that time. January 2012, the EU | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
commission proposed a conference of reform on data protection rules in | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
the European Union. After more than four years of deliberation, the | :50:01. | :50:03. | |
general data protection regulation was agreed by the European | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
Parliament in April and is 16. The general data protection aims to | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
strengthen consumer protection and enhance trust and confidence in how | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
personal data is used and managed, giving citizens more control over | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
their own private information. It will replace the existing | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
legislation that has been in place since the mid-19 90s, which in the | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
UK means superseding the Data Protection Act of 1998. The new | :50:29. | :50:36. | |
regulation entered into force on the 24th of May 2016 and has a | :50:37. | :50:40. | |
regulation would directly apply to all European Union member states. | :50:41. | :50:47. | |
There will be new -- nanny for new national legislation from 2018. EU | :50:48. | :50:54. | |
member states are required to transpose it into the national law | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
by May 2018. The European Commission has called it an essential step to | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
strengthen rights in the digital age, facilitate businesses by simple | :51:07. | :51:08. | |
flying rules for companies in the digital single market. The directive | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
for the police and criminal justice sector protects the fundamental | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
rights of citizens to data protection whenever more personal | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
data is used by law enforcement agencies and will especially protect | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
the personal data of victims, witnesses and suspects of crying. | :51:25. | :51:29. | |
Data protection is also underpinned by the European Union union's | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
Charter of fundamental rights. The right to protection of personal data | :51:35. | :51:39. | |
is explicitly recognised by Article eight, guaranteeing the right to | :51:40. | :51:42. | |
respect the private and family life, home and correspondence. Data | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
protection is a highly developed area of European Union law. Some | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
describe the freeze movement of data as a fifth freedom. -- the free | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
movement. What could Brexit me for data protection in the UK? -- mean. | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
It will still apply to the UK from May 20 18. Minister does say is a | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
dishonour number of occasions and I'm confident the minister will do | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
this again today. The Right Honourable member for Staffordshire | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
Moorlands is that we will be members of big European Union in 2018 and it | :52:19. | :52:24. | |
would be expected and normal about to be part of it then. While | :52:25. | :52:31. | |
maintaining high levels of protection for members of the | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
public. The Minister responding tonight has said the Data Protection | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
Act provides a very strong safeguards and are set to get | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
stronger. The Government says you will opt in to the data protection | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
measures which will be stronger than the Data Protection Act. It is clear | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
the Government plans the GDP are due apply in the UK from May 2018 | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
presumably because as the Right Honourable member from Stassen | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
Wallen said in 2008 in we will still be a member of the European Union. | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
What about one we leave? Little has been said about what will be done | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
with data protection after that point. The Minister has said there | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
may be changes of the regulatory landscape after the UK exits the | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
European Union. This point is particularly important because it... | :53:23. | :53:31. | |
When the UK leaves the EU, our main data protection law will seemingly | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
be the Data Protection Act 1998 which is now not fit for purpose. | :53:36. | :53:42. | |
The bill Annie Powers act were introduced with the ball mention of | :53:43. | :53:45. | |
how they would appear to the GDP are. Unless the GDP up with | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
transposed international legislation, our deck delete Mac | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
data protection Acts will be the outdated one. This matters because | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
people will be vulnerable. Nine out of ten large organisations have had | :54:02. | :54:12. | |
data breaches, but they are under no obligation to report it. A further | :54:13. | :54:19. | |
very real? Hangs over the future of the GDP are any count of the Digital | :54:20. | :54:31. | |
economy Bill. Big brother watch has said... Indeed the GDPR refers to | :54:32. | :54:39. | |
the Data Protection Act 1998. Both pieces of legislation are now out of | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
date. The information Commissioner pointed out that when the GDPR comes | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
into effect in the UK, the Government will have to implement | :54:52. | :54:58. | |
this. There will be consideration of the impact on all aspects of the | :54:59. | :55:07. | |
bill include dating Sheryl. Also the GDPR -- data protection Bill. We do | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
not know what data protection regime will be in place when the Data | :55:14. | :55:15. | |
Protection Act becomes law. We fail to see how in this context that the | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
Government with the citizens. It Government with the citizens. | :55:21. | :55:23. | |
seems illogical that this bill seems illogical that this bill | :55:24. | :55:24. | |
should be introduced with no should be introduced with no | :55:25. | :55:30. | |
reference to GDPR winner will have two adhere to GDPR within two | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
It will be updated. If we want to It will be updated. If we want to | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
remain a major player on the digital stage, we have two keep an eye on | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
what is happening in Europe. International data flows are | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
essential to UK business operations across the sectors. Half of all | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
services and trade depend on access of cross-border data flows. There | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
was a risk that after Brexit the UK may be treated as a third country on | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
data protection issues. That is because the investigatory Powers act | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
adopted his currently competent, but that will not be the case when we're | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
out of the European Union. We see out of the European Union. We see | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
our powers being judged against the GDPR. Will be a third country and we | :56:22. | :56:30. | |
will have to come to a adequacy decision between us and the European | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
union to make sure that it flows through need to wean us and the | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
European Union states. In order to get a position, the European Union | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
must be satisfied that the third country offers an equivalent level | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
of data protection. The number of commentators fear that the recent | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
investigatory power act means that it will take some convincing. That | :56:52. | :56:58. | |
can take years to resolve leaving protections for UK citizens in the | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
meantime week, as well as hugely disadvantaged in the crucial tech | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
sector, one of our great success stories. How easy it would be for | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
our competitors in mainland Europe to then say to people, move here | :57:12. | :57:16. | |
where you can be inside the system. Do not stay outside in the cold. | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
Ministers should be working to ensure our data protection rules are | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
strong enough to secure an EU, UK adequacy decision which would be | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
viable to underpin trade rights across the Digital economy. That is | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
what we need. As of the rest of the Bretton negotiations, we are on the | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
dark unless the Minister can shed some light. Will the | :57:41. | :57:41. | |
confirm that the Government will confirm that the Government will | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
prioritise Aaron seeing data flows post date -- post Brexit. Also with | :57:47. | :58:00. | |
so much operating across borders, it is crucial to citizens, businesses, | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
so can the Minister also confirmed that the Government is seeking to | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
have a UK adequacy decision. It is worth noting in passing the last | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
adequacy decision with New Zealand took more than three years to | :58:18. | :58:25. | |
negotiate. Data is the currency of additional -- Digital economy. We | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
must not shy away from it. The data landscape is shifting and we must | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
keep pace to tap into the potential offered by the Internet. If we want | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
the UK to remain at the forefront of the digital revolution, ... The | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
information Commissioner has simply said, I don't think Brexit should | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
mean Brexit when it comes to standards of data protection. The | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
danger is that to paraphrase when it comes to data, Brexit could mean | :59:01. | :59:06. | |
except for tech. The Government should be challenging the GDPR as a | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
starting point for a comprehensive examination of how we can make that | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
a policy of big data. I hope the Minister could tonight provide | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
reassurance that the Government recognises the value of data for our | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
country as well as the importance of facilitating public confidence as | :59:26. | :59:31. | |
how the data is being used and is putting data and data protection at | :59:32. | :59:36. | |
the heart of its negotiations. Thank you very much indeed. It normally | :59:37. | :59:45. | |
says at the start of a Minister's speech in response to an adjournment | :59:46. | :59:54. | |
debate let me thank the member for tabling. This time I ready mean it. | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
This is an incredibly important subject and I think that the | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
honourable member and I, though we sit on opposite sides of this house, | :00:03. | :00:10. | |
have a very similar interest in, and direction that we want to achieve, | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
in terms of the data protection regime that applies in the UK and a | :00:16. | :00:22. | |
common understanding of the value of data in a digital economy. I have | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
got no surprise about that because he is not only an expert on his own | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
right, but also as the MP for Cambridge, represents one of the | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
most data rich constituencies in the country. It is very good to see | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
continuing investment in tech countries in Cambridge, including | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
after June 23, and in fact one of the biggest foreign investments in | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
any British company ever was the investment in arms holdings based in | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
Cambridge that happened in July this year. That was a vote of confidence | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
in British tech post-referendum and indeed since then, we've seen | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
investment decisions by companies who are intrinsically based on the | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
strength of our data systems like Google and Facebook and Apple and | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
Microsoft and IBM and others. All of whom have made significant | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
investment decisions into the UK post Brexit. We have made it clear | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
that the data protection regulations will apply in the UK from May 20 18. | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
We fully expect still to be in the European Union at that point and | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
that is why we have announced that we will ensure that the GDP letter R | :01:45. | :01:56. | |
will apply beyond them. It has evolved rapidly since then. The | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
ability to collect and share processed data is critical. To | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
success in today's Digital global society. I think that it is right | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
not only to update our data protection regime because we will | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
still be in the EE, but also because it is time to update the data | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
protection regime given the enormous changes that are taken place and | :02:23. | :02:24. | |
then. We were clear in the negotiations on GDPR that any new | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
data protection regulation needs to balance the need for heights -- | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
and not putting burdens on the and not putting burdens on the | :02:40. | :02:52. | |
businesses. Greater laxity in relating to -- greater protection. | :02:53. | :02:58. | |
What we want is a scheme that works effectively that protect data and | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
its flexible that ensures our data economy thrives. We were successful | :03:04. | :03:10. | |
in negotiating a reduction in the bureaucracy whose primary activity | :03:11. | :03:16. | |
is not data processing. But have data that nevertheless needs | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
protecting. We have given greater discretion to the UK's information | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
commission in the way it enforces breaches of the regulation. The new | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
rules will strengthen rights and empower individuals to have more | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
control over their personal data. By providing individuals with greater | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
information on how their data is information on how their data is | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
being used and a new right to data portability making it easier to | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
transfer it across service providers. In addition, the GDPR | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
provide more safeguards including fines of an organisation's global | :03:57. | :04:06. | |
turnover being fined 4%. This is a global call of action to businesses | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
to offer individuals assurances that their data is protected. He asked a | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
series of questions about the cementation of the GDPR. We now need | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
to press ahead with an fermentation. -- implementation. There is a lot of | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
preparatory work to do in the meantime both within Government and | :04:30. | :04:32. | |
amongst businesses right across the country. We are now working on the | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
overall approach and the details of that implementation. The details on | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
any new legislation in this area will be made in due course and | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
can tell him that we are considering can tell him that we are considering | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
these matters in great detail right as we speak. It is important for | :04:55. | :05:00. | |
businesses and organisations to prepare now for the new standards of | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
data processing. A lot of work has already taken place, but there is | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
much for businesses to do to make sure their processes and practices | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
are aligned with the GDPR. The information Commissioner is | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
providing regular updates on the steps. Organisations and individuals | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
should be taking for the new legal framework and to continue to provide | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
guidance over the next few months. We plan to consult with the | :05:32. | :05:37. | |
stakeholders on key measures where we have the opportunity to apply | :05:38. | :05:40. | |
flexibilities that we mentioned in the regulation to maximise and | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
protect our domestic interests and get the balance right between | :05:48. | :05:49. | |
delivering the protection that people need and ensuring that the | :05:50. | :05:59. | |
regulation operates in a way that ensures that the UK data economy can | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
be highly successful. For instance one measure will be what the age of | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
consent should be the children who wish to access information services. | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
We want data protection framework the works best for the UK and meets | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
our needs for the UK and they will be forthcoming. He also asked the | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
question and adequacy and any Friday to protection regime to be | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
interoperable with data regimes around the world. This is a question | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
of course with our data relationship with the European Union. It is also | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
a question of our data relationship with the countries too. The data | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
economy is a truly global one. We've made progress in our gym and within | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
the European Union the data localisation rules are not | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
appropriate. That is a live issue within the EU at the moment. But I | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
think that we are making progress on the argument there. | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
There is work to be done between now and 2018 to make sure we achieved a | :07:05. | :07:11. | |
coherent data protection regime and ensure that data flows with the EU | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
are not interrupted after we leave. The Government is considering all | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
options for the most beneficial way of ensuring that the UK's data | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
protection regime continues to build a culture of data confidence and | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
trust that safeguards citizens and support businesses in a global data | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
economy. I hope that without having been able to prejudge the | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
publication of consultations under legislative plans in this House, I | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
can give him and the tech industry in the UK the reassurance that we | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
are doing all that we can to ensure that our future data standards of | :07:56. | :08:03. | |
the very highest quality, including their international links, and that | :08:04. | :08:09. | |
we manage to get the balance right between ensuring the high levels of | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
protection that individuals and companies need and ought to expect, | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
would the appropriate levels of flexibility, to make sure -- with | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
the appropriate, to make sure our data economy can be one of the | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
strongest in the world. He makes a very deft response and I am | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
listening closely. I wonder whether he could say a little bit more about | :08:35. | :08:38. | |
this issue that has been raised about the impact the investigatory | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
Powers act and the difficulty that my present in terms of achieving | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
that adequacy agreement. Well, I was going to come onto this question | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
that has been raised in committee, which is that the Digital Economy | :08:54. | :09:01. | |
Bill, which includes importer -- important data-sharing arrangements, | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
which is supported by the Labour Government in Wales for improving | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
public services and other things by ensuring that data is appropriately | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
share, these sharing arrangements will still be covered by the data | :09:14. | :09:20. | |
protection regime. Of course, the Digital Economy Bill, in bringing | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
those measures forward, is drafted according to the current law, which | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
is of course the Data Protection Act. You cannot draft legislation in | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
anticipation of future legislation. That is not how the body of | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
legislation works. Instead, as and when you bring forward future | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
legislation, to amend an existing system at the Data Protection Act, | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
one would expect that would include amendment to the then existing | :09:50. | :09:57. | |
digital economy act, should this Parliament pass that Bill, to make | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
it consistent. That is the way that legislation is made in the UK, and | :10:04. | :10:13. | |
it is neither possible nor logically sensible to legislate in | :10:14. | :10:16. | |
anticipation of future legislation, that even if you fully expect that | :10:17. | :10:24. | |
to come into force. So, with regards to all of the existing statutes, and | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
the Digital Economy Bill, which is currently before the other place, | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
they are drafted with reference to the existing regime, because they | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
will come into force before the existing regime is replaced by the | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
expected future regime in 2018. I may have been making a more | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
convoluted than are needed to be but I hope that it's an excavation for | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
what the Digital Economy Bill and the other recent legislation is | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
drafted in the way it is. I have heard those complaints before, but | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
they said they have missed the point as to the way that legislation is | :11:06. | :11:12. | |
made and framed. I hope that answers his question and that he is | :11:13. | :11:15. | |
reassured that we are working to implement a modern and effective | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
data protection framework, fit for purpose for the digital age, and I | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
welcome the honourable member's input. | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
The question is that this House do now adjourn. As many as are of the | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
opinion say, "Aye," to the contrary, "No." The ayes have it, the ayes | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
have it. Order, order! | :11:38. | :11:41. |