19/12/2016 House of Commons


19/12/2016

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Join me for the highlights of both Houses of Parliament at 11pm.

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We are committed to ensuring that we have a high-quality affordable

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childcare that families need. We are childcare that families need. We are

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investing record funding of ?1 billion per year, have announced a

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fire early funding system and are providing nearly 4000 places one

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year early. Last week I visited a very well-respected local nursery.

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They are concerned about the level They are concerned about the level

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of funding they will receive. Can she give us some reassurance and

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would she like to visit the school because they would be delighted to

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see her? I thank my honourable friend for that. I would be more

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than happy to visit. He is right to highlight the importance of this and

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that is why we've committed to providing these until the end of the

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Parliament. Isn't it the case that the promise is being funded by

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nurses and can the Secretary of nurses and can the Secretary of

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State tell us what analysis she has undertaken of the damage that will

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be done by the cuts she is making? It is a rather churlish comment and

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we are investing more money in this policy than any government ever. ?6

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billion. He needs to be more appreciative, I think. Working

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parents in my constituency very much welcome the 30 hours of free

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childcare. Can the Minister set out for them, particularly those with

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disabled children, how they will disabled children, how they will

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make sure there is sufficient funding available to give children

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the best start in life through that scheme. She's absolutely right. I

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was in a nursery in new and they were already seeing a massive

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difference this is making to working families and it is with regard to

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children with special educational needs, there is a fund which will go

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towards them. I hope the Minister will agree that the pupil premium

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provides vital support to some of our most disadvantaged children and

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we want them to know that many will not be able to care for the most

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vulnerable children when the 30 hours is introduced so will the

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Minister guarantee that all of the money will go to our most vulnerable

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children and this vital resource will not be cut this Parliament? It

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will continue and will continue to go to the most vulnerable children.

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We are committed to making sure as many pupils as possible have a place

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at school. The latest report shows that standards have risen compared

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to 2010, when 1.8 million more pupils are taught in good or

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outstanding skills, proposals are in place in the consultation. I am very

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encouraged by the reply from the Minister. One of the issues raised

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by them is securing school places for siblings. Will my right

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honourable friend look at this as part of her plans? Any changes in

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relation to the overall way that the code operates will be scrutinised by

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this house, she will be aware that admissions for authorities are

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responsible for setting their own admissions arrangements. But

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actually it allows them to prioritise siblings and some

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authorities choose to do that already. Headteachers in my

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constituency say they are stymied by changing expectations from

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government. Will the Secretary of State reassure her teachers in my

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constituency that expectations will not keep changing without good

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reason? I had a chance to visit one of the schools last week which was a

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fantastic opportunity, they were working with Bristol University, and

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in relation to the continued reforms, we want to make sure we see

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improvements in classrooms and she will no doubt welcome the fact that

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we launched the strategic school improvement fund which is about

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making sure we can get the investment in schools that need to

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improve quickly and effectively. Skills include technical provision

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as a must, so does the Secretary of State agree that university

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technical colleges play an important role in this and these should be

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good and outstanding? We expect them to deliver high standards. I had the

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chance to go to Didcot UTC and it was providing a fantastic education,

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are very different one but one that worked for them in their interest.

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It was getting very good results because of that. Thank you, Mr

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Speaker. It is my understanding that in the last two years there were

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over 60 schools which have been rated inadequate weir and an Academy

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order has been issued and a sponsor yet to be identified. How does that

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uncertainty help improve standards in those schools? We are committed

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to making sure that when we see schools that are not achieving the

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results that they need to for those children that we have a strong

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approach that is steadily improving the schools and working with them to

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approve, but where they cannot improve we want to make sure that

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changes take place in terms of leadership and school sponsorship,

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that means schools have got the flexibility and freedom to get

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better. Yes. Thank you, Mr Speaker. As a former Acton residents, I'm

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sure they will share concerns... They have a full role of students, a

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secure site but no physical building. Can she do everything she

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can to pressure the funding authority to find the shortfall that

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Balfour Beatty want, because East Acton is the most deprived wards...

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She's made her point with great force and eloquence but it does not

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need to be made at any further point. Acton is a place I very much

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enjoy living in and it is important we see school standards raised in

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Acton. I will look very carefully at the particular issues she has raised

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and perhaps write to her to find out what she can advise we do to speed

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things up. There is a skill in my constituency, two of my children

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attended, so do 1000 of its children, and it has been placed in

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special measures and will become an Academy, which I support, but the

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choice of Academy has been made and subsequently retracted pending

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surveys on the school. The process is flawed. Would the secretary take

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a look at this with urgency? I'm aware of this matter because he has

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done his rule as a fantastic local MP in already raising it with me and

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it is something we are looking at within the Department to see whether

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we can make sure that the barriers preventing their school from getting

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a great sponsor that can help improve it, not just for his own

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children but all the children there, can be quickly removed.

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Multi-Academy trusts enable the sharing of staff and expertise that

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can help foster a truly excellent special education provision and

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special schools can be helpful in supporting children with special

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education needs as well as provision education needs as well as provision

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alongside mainstream provision. Some examples can be found in the good

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practice guidance published on the 9th of December. I was going to ask

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him to issue further guidance when I tabled the question in December. I

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don't think it has been issued so I'm grateful for that. I would

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encourage him to look at special needs schools operating as special

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needs schools because there is a difference between thousands of

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pupils. I think the honourable gentleman is encouraged by the power

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of his own question tabling. I expect nothing less from the

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honourable gentleman. He raises an important issue. We continue to

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provide guidance in this area. I would encourage any newly forming

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organisation to get in touch. You've moved to number four. Very

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well. I thank the Minister for meeting to discuss the contents of

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my ten minute rule Bill to do with special needs. He mentioned the

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arrangements were not ideal and needed some adjustment and mentioned

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a consultation. Could he give us any more information on that? I welcome

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a lot of sympathy for the cause he a lot of sympathy for the cause he

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makes within it. I can commit to a consultation early in the New Year

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and I know that he will want to contribute along with others

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interested in this issue. Great teachers are critical to improving

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educational outcomes. Teaching is a profession and we are supporting the

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development of teachers including through the new leadership

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innovation fund and the new chartered College of teaching and

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also through investment in improving curriculum expertise and in

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particular in maths which I saw for myself on a recent visit to China.

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In the paper that was produced in In the paper that was produced in

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March in 2016, there was a good proposal in that paper for a

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national teacher vacancy website to national teacher vacancy website to

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ensure that the cost of recruitment was kept down. What progress is

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being made? She set out a commitment we made in

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the March White Paper. It is going to offer a website with a free route

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for schools to advertise teacher vacancies, but also provide teachers

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with easier access to information about job opportunities. We have

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worked closely with schools and teachers on testing out different

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approaches for how to deliver that website so we can make sure it adds

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maximum value to all schools. Whenever I meet young people in my

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constituency, they tell me that the thing that could most affect their

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educational outcomes is a curriculum for life and compulsory PSAT in all

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schools. The curriculum was last updated before Facebook was even

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invented. Teachers go unsupported and untrained. If yesterday's

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briefings to the papers are to be believed, the government is

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considering bringing in compulsory PSHE. Is this true, and if so, when

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will it happen? It is urgent. I was clear in my first education select

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committee appearance but I felt this was an area we needed to look at,

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which is what we are doing. It is not just a question of updating the

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guidance, it is also about the schools that it is taught in. It is

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also about the quality of the teaching that happens as well. As

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someone who did pure maths and applied maths as well as physics and

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English at A-level, I am very keen mathematics teaching. I was

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wondering, what was the Secretary of State's assessment of the recent

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mathematics teacher exchange between the United Kingdom and China? I

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think it has worked fantastically well so far. We have seen 131

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teachers from England visiting Shanghai and 127 teachers from

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Shanghai visiting English schools. Through that exchange, our teachers

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have observed Shanghai teaching methods. And in the 48 schools that

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have taken part in the study, most teachers have implemented changes

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which have led to increased enthusiasm for mathematics,

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hopefully as strong as his was at school, deeper engagement and

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increased confidence, but critically, higher attainment. One

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of the best ways to support teachers in improving educational outcomes,

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particularly for children with special needs, is through the pupil

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premium. Will she therefore explain to the House why the level of the

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pupil premium has been frozen at current levels through this

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Parliament? The pupil premium was of course something that the previous

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coalition government introduced and is continuing to be supported

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throughout this Parliament to make sure funding goes to those children

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who need it most. Last week, I announced the national funding

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formula, which also prioritises resources going towards children

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with a distant advantage. The Secretary of State will know how

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traumatic it is for students and teachers in getting children through

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GCSE maths and English resits, which can often blight their post-GCSE

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students. Can we have a curriculum which is vocationally based for

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numeracy and literacy, which will give people the skills they need for

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work without having to go through this traumatic and often wasteful

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experience? It is important that all children leaving our education

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system leave with something to show for their names, particularly on

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maths and English. That is why we brought in the GCSE resits policy.

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For students who achieved a D and were close to being able to get to

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the better standard, they should have another go at doing that.

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However, the functional skills qualifications have been

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well-received by employers and we want to look at how they can also

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play a role in enabling all young people to show their

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accomplishments. Grammar schools are the Prime Minister's flagship policy

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for improving outcomes, but today the Independent is saying that

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officials in the Department for Education have said there is no

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chance of a new selective school before 2020. Can the Secretary of

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State confirm how many selective schools are to be built in this

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Parliament? The consultation finished last week. We will now look

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at the responses to it. We have to recognise that we need an education

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system that has more good school places, especially for children in

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parts of the country that don't have access to them. Rather than carping

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with no suggestions, I hope we can have a good debate now that the

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consultation has finished and bring forward additional grammar school

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places. The school workforce census reports

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a constant vacancy rate of 0.2% of teachers in post. New analysis

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published in September looks at the proportion of schools with at least

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one vacancy. This measure has sung the Luke shown some variance since

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2010, with London having the highest proportion of vacancies. The

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department is also working to identify those schools experiencing

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the greatest teacher shortages and to support them to meet those

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challenges. Good teaching depends on retaining good teachers in the

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profession. Does the minister not accept that the consistent

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underfunding of schools in disadvantaged areas such as the

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north-east makes retaining teachers difficult, and will he look again at

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the cost adjustment element of the national funding formula that could

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have the adverse effect of sending money away from disadvantaged areas

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into more affluent ones? We have protected the score schools but in

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real terms throughout this Parliament and the last. We have

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also grasped the nettle, something the Labour government failed to do

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while in office, of introducing fair funding. One of the elements of that

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is in ensuring sufficient funds to tackle disadvantaged and lower

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attainment. Schools in Somerset have great teachers, but find it hard to

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recruit does. Does my right honourable friend agree that

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adjusting the funding formula will help rural areas like mine attract

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and retain excellent teachers? My honourable friend is right. Areas

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around the country have been underfunded for many years. We have

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been the first government that has grasped this nettle introducing a

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much fairer national funding formula that will deal with these historic,

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and anachronistic and unfair national funding formulas. Regarding

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the proposed funding formula last week, can I ask the minister how it

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helps recruit and retain teachers when all but one of the schools in

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my constituency will lose money under the funding formula? The

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national funding formula has been introduced to ensure that we have a

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fair funding system. We are consulting on that system over the

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next 40 weeks, and I am sure the honourable gentleman will send him

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his representations. If an outstanding academy in the New

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Forest, minutes from the seaside, is having difficulty recruiting an

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English teacher, what hope is there for anywhere else? My honourable

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friend raises an important point. The national funding formula will

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help schools have the resources to enable them to use the discretion we

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have given schools in how they reward teachers, particularly in

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those subjects where they find it difficult to recruit. Can I take

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this opportunity to wish the House well. The Association of schools and

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college leaders have found that opening up new grammars may worsen

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new teacher recruitment is. Doesn't he think the priority should be

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incentivising teacher recruitment and retention, rather than taking

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the retrograde step of providing new armers that will do nothing for new

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pupils and parents? We are prioritising teacher recruitment. We

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met 94% of our target last year and 93% this year. We are recruiting

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more teachers in science than before. She should look at the

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number of teachers coming into teacher training, and acknowledge

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the fact that there are 456,000 teachers in our schools today, an

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all-time high, and there are 50,000 more teachers today than in 2010.

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May I take the opportunity to thank the honourable gentleman for the

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work he does for education. Helping all young people to get the careers

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education and guidance they need is crucial to delivering social

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mobility. That is why we are investing ?90 million over the

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parliament to ensure that every young person has access to advice

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and inspiration to fulfil their potential. This includes further

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funding for the careers and enterprise company to continue the

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excellent work it has started, including 1 million for the first

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six opportunity areas. The all-party group for education is conducting an

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inquiry into how we prepare children for their future careers. It seems

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to be not just the academic, but also the soft skills. Does the

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government feel that it is doing that ably enough, and would you

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attend the launch of our document when it is produced on the 7th of

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February? The honourable gentleman makes an important point. Not enough

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schools are encouraging their children to do not just soft skills,

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but all skills and technical education and apprenticeships. We

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have worked to change that and make sure schools talk about

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apprenticeships and skills when they give careers advice. We are

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investing millions in the careers enterprise company, which is going

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to look after 250,000 students in areas of the country that have least

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careers provision. In terms of the event that the honourable gentleman

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has asked me to, I will do my best. I have to obviously check the diary.

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The junction of the careers and enterprise company will do a great

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deal to improve careers advice among secondary school students. But to

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encourage more girls into a science career, we have to start earlier in

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primary schools. Can the minister confirmed that increasing diversity

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in the careers that leads to greater productivity will form a central

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part of the Stem related strategies? Again, my honourable friend is

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right. We need to do everything was able to ensure that young people do

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the empty macro subjects are encouraged into doing so -- the Stem

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subjects. That is why we are encouraging apprenticeships. It is

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why the get up and go campaign focuses on Stem subjects and

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encouraging more women to do the skills we need. I am glad to hear of

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the minister's support for young people studying Stem subjects. Does

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he share my disappointment that the GCSE in environmental science has

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now been discontinued? There are alternative qualifications. I would

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also add that we are creating a state-of-the-art technical education

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system with 15 different pathways, which will have important technical

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routes and qualifications that will have the prestige and give employers

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the qualifications that they need. The minister knows that university

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technical colleges can be a fantastic route into

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apprenticeships, degrees and jobs. The proposed Gloucestershire health

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university technical College will be a magnificent example of this, but

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with the minister to the chamber when the delayed deadline for UCT

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applications will be announced? My honourable friend is right to

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highlight the importance of UCT and here's a champion of apprentices and

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skills in his constituency since he has been elected. I will speak to my

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honourable friend the UCT minister about question he raises. Question

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number seven, Mr Speaker. Following the EU referendum on the 23rd of

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June, we are considering all aspects of how the vote of the people of the

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United Kingdom to leave the EU might impact on further education

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institutions. This includes consideration of institutions'

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access to EU funding sources. We are committed to ensuring that the FE

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sector remains effective in delivering learning that provides

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individuals with the skills the economy needs for growth. The

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Chancellor of the Exchequer committed to stability in the period

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leading up to departure from the EU. Further institutions in Glasgow need

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a certainty in this scenario, including those who have benefited

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from European social fund to the tune of ?1.5 million this year

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alone. Brexit is not a circumstance of Glasgow's choosing. Will the

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government commit to abandon the empty "Brexit means Brexit" rhetoric

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and publish detailed plans on Sunday? I say to the honourable lady

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that leaving the European Union means that we all want to take our

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own decisions about how to deliver the policy objectives previously

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targeted by EU funding. The government is consulting closely

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with stakeholders to review all EU funding schemes to ensure that any

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ongoing funding commitments best serve the UK's national interest,

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while ensuring appropriate certainty.

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You are not be sensible for the government to commit simply

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replacing EU funding with UK funding, keeping everyone happy? My

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honourable friend makes an important point. The government of the UK will

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decide how best to spend the money that was previously going to the

:27:17.:27:25.

European Union. Colleges Scotland have received 250 million in EU

:27:26.:27:31.

funding to fund capital projects. Given it was this government who

:27:32.:27:36.

gambled away Scotland's membership, what is the likelihood of this

:27:37.:27:39.

government replacing this type of vital funding in the years ahead. I

:27:40.:27:53.

find it interesting that the party's position is to campaign for more

:27:54.:27:56.

powers to go from Westminster to Scotland and yet they would like

:27:57.:28:02.

funding decisions decided in the EU than in Scotland. Having said that

:28:03.:28:06.

she will know the Chancellor has announced the Treasury will

:28:07.:28:12.

guarantee investment bids which are signed before the UK leaves the EU

:28:13.:28:17.

including funding for projects agreed after the Autumn Statement if

:28:18.:28:20.

they represent good value for money and if they are aligned with the

:28:21.:28:23.

continue beyond the departure from continue beyond the departure from

:28:24.:28:31.

the EU. We know that our further education colleges benefit hugely

:28:32.:28:35.

from European social funds. The government told me in February that

:28:36.:28:43.

the funding agency had ?725 million and 120 million went to colleges

:28:44.:28:52.

from funding, it guarantees jobs and skills. Can the Minister guarantee

:28:53.:28:55.

that government will replace this after Brexit and F E colleges, which

:28:56.:29:04.

provide courses and get the same guarantee as universities? Thank

:29:05.:29:12.

you, Mr Speaker, I had hoped in the spirit of Christmas the honourable

:29:13.:29:17.

gentleman might have welcomed the 900,000 apprenticeship

:29:18.:29:22.

participation, the highest in our island's history. The access to

:29:23.:29:29.

European funding is one aspect of business that is impacted by the

:29:30.:29:32.

decision to leave the European Union and we are considering all aspects

:29:33.:29:38.

of how colleges may be affected but it is worth noting that by 2020 the

:29:39.:29:42.

adult budget will be the highest in the nation's history if you include

:29:43.:29:47.

apprenticeships. All this getting up is good

:29:48.:30:06.

preparation for Christmas. If he knows he has the next question he is

:30:07.:30:11.

very welcome to remain standing at the box, nobody would think there is

:30:12.:30:14.

anything disorderly or unreasonable about that. Thank you, it is good

:30:15.:30:19.

for the calories in advance of Christmas.

:30:20.:30:32.

We are making over 60 million support apprenticeship take-up from

:30:33.:30:42.

disadvantaged areas. Our campaign aims to get more young people to

:30:43.:30:47.

apply for an apprenticeship. We are increasing the number of

:30:48.:30:53.

traineeships. What measures is he putting in place to overcome

:30:54.:30:58.

barriers to accessing apprenticeships and for ensuring a

:30:59.:31:06.

good promotion of them by schools? I thank my honourable friend for this

:31:07.:31:11.

question. We are putting 60 million in deprived areas to encourage

:31:12.:31:18.

trainers to have that. We are putting a lot of funding into

:31:19.:31:24.

helping 16-18 -year-olds, supporting businesses and providers. We are

:31:25.:31:28.

supporting health and social care apprenticeships if they have a plan

:31:29.:31:41.

from the local authority. We're giving 12 million to the fund. This

:31:42.:31:46.

government is committed to ensuring most young people can do

:31:47.:31:53.

apprenticeships. From next April, many schools will pave the

:31:54.:31:59.

apprenticeship levy, and other cost. That is an additional cost of

:32:00.:32:02.

?15,000. Will the Minister agreed to meet with me and another member and

:32:03.:32:07.

concerned headteachers to discuss the impact of the levy on schools

:32:08.:32:16.

and academies. I'm very happy to meet with the honourable lady but

:32:17.:32:21.

the whole purpose of the levy is to change behaviours and ensure we

:32:22.:32:25.

become an apprenticeship and skilled nation. If the schools have the

:32:26.:32:29.

needs of their levy then not only will they not pay any levy but they

:32:30.:32:38.

will get 10% on top. Small businesses often give the best

:32:39.:32:41.

experience to an apprentice but lack the resources to support them. What

:32:42.:32:47.

steps is the Minister taking to encourage small businesses to take

:32:48.:32:52.

on apprentices? I know that the honourable friend is a champion of

:32:53.:32:58.

small businesses in his constituency. We are doing huge

:32:59.:33:02.

amounts to encourage small businesses to take on young

:33:03.:33:05.

apprentices, huge financial incentives for the providers and the

:33:06.:33:10.

businesses, small businesses have to pay no training cost at all if they

:33:11.:33:14.

have 16-18 -year-olds. We have cut national insurance for

:33:15.:33:21.

apprenticeships up to the age of 25. The scheme must be better publicised

:33:22.:33:25.

in our high schools and primary schools to encourage those who don't

:33:26.:33:29.

feel comfortable in academia to understand there are options

:33:30.:33:31.

available to them. Could the Minister specified how the

:33:32.:33:35.

Department plans to implement any such system in schools? As so often,

:33:36.:33:41.

the honourable gentleman makes a the honourable gentleman makes a

:33:42.:33:44.

good point. When I go around the country, again and again,

:33:45.:33:47.

apprentices have not been encouraged by their schools to do this and we

:33:48.:33:52.

are looking at how to ensure that careers encourage them. We are

:33:53.:34:02.

investing ?90 million in careers, they have many advisers, getting

:34:03.:34:13.

kids to do work experience. We are committed to tackling inequalities

:34:14.:34:20.

so that all pupils can fulfil their potential. We welcome the

:34:21.:34:27.

contribution, including the benefits of an academic curriculum. The

:34:28.:34:40.

northern powerhouse challenge as well funded as the London challenge

:34:41.:34:48.

was funded with the very welcome, for schools such as one outstanding

:34:49.:34:55.

school in my constituency. What support will be available to schools

:34:56.:34:59.

like that already doing their very best in very disadvantaged areas?

:35:00.:35:09.

There is an achievement gap which is why in March 2016 the Chancellor

:35:10.:35:17.

announced ?20 million of new funding to support a northern powerhouse

:35:18.:35:27.

strategy. Old Trafford is the best performing in North England but one

:35:28.:35:30.

of the worst funded authorities. I'm sure he can imagine the concern that

:35:31.:35:35.

the draft funding formula produced last week would lead to all

:35:36.:35:40.

secondary schools being worse off and the number of primary schools

:35:41.:35:45.

being worse off. Can I ask him to look as a matter of urgency at the

:35:46.:35:48.

nature of the funding formula to ensure fairness to the

:35:49.:35:52.

which have been underfunded? They which have been underfunded? They

:35:53.:36:02.

will see gains, some ?210 million, but in Trafford there is a loss of

:36:03.:36:11.

0.4%. The current formula under funds primary is computed

:36:12.:36:11.

secondaries. Under the proposed national funding

:36:12.:36:26.

formula, the secondaries will lose but the primaries will game. The

:36:27.:36:35.

education policy found that there are no better standards in local

:36:36.:36:41.

authorities so why is expanding trust is key to driving up

:36:42.:36:45.

standards? Is it because he is very well paid by an academy trust and is

:36:46.:36:50.

there perchance any evidence? He is experienced in running a very

:36:51.:36:55.

successful one. Sponsored academies do increase more rapidly. One of the

:36:56.:37:09.

causes identified is the challenge of teacher supply. Does my

:37:10.:37:12.

honourable friend agree with me that one way of improving that will be to

:37:13.:37:19.

recruit more members from the former members of the Armed Forces into the

:37:20.:37:23.

teaching profession? I do agree and we have a scheme that does just

:37:24.:37:27.

that, and as the years go by it is recruiting increasing numbers, small

:37:28.:37:31.

numbers but increasing numbers of highly qualified but experienced

:37:32.:37:42.

ex-military personnel. Thank you, Mr Speaker, we've not permanently

:37:43.:37:45.

closed any academies within three years of their conversion, but we've

:37:46.:37:57.

re-brokered them. If no school has been closed within three years of

:37:58.:38:01.

such conversion and now Academy closed solely as a result of a bad

:38:02.:38:05.

Ofsted report and there is no reliable estimate of the cost or the

:38:06.:38:10.

availability of alternate places and future demand and the real travel

:38:11.:38:15.

alternative schools, how does the alternative schools, how does the

:38:16.:38:19.

government justified reneging on their promise to the pupils and

:38:20.:38:26.

parents to rescue an Academy in my constituency rather than close the

:38:27.:38:35.

school? No decision has been taken yet on the future of this academy

:38:36.:38:38.

but ministers are going to consider all options and the view of parents

:38:39.:38:43.

in the community before reaching a final decision. They will ensure

:38:44.:38:57.

that they get good access. Increasing this for pupils underpins

:38:58.:39:03.

our commitment to making sure our country works for everyone and in

:39:04.:39:07.

the pupil premium we are narrowing the gap between disadvantaged pupils

:39:08.:39:10.

and their peers and indeed, this can be seen in the primary school in

:39:11.:39:17.

Enfield which I want to congratulate for its excellent work on pupil

:39:18.:39:28.

premium. Thank you for the response. On the response from my right

:39:29.:39:34.

honourable friend for Harlow, given the school's link with local

:39:35.:39:38.

employers, they have let their most vulnerable. Can I commend the

:39:39.:39:42.

Secretary of State for the good example of the TEFL steps in to work

:39:43.:39:45.

programme which is bucking the national trend. It is something I do

:39:46.:40:02.

commend. We're working with it to strengthen links between employers

:40:03.:40:13.

and schools when you get a close relationship, especially for those

:40:14.:40:18.

with learning difficulties, it can make a great difference. There is a

:40:19.:40:25.

serious problem here in terms of disadvantaged young people, clever

:40:26.:40:30.

and bright at the age of 11, then lose them, they fail in secondary.

:40:31.:40:37.

Is she further aware, though she is reluctant to answer the question,

:40:38.:40:41.

how many young people from disadvantaged backgrounds are locked

:40:42.:40:45.

into the further education system unable to get their GCSEs in maths

:40:46.:40:46.

and English? When is she going to do and English? When is she going to do

:40:47.:41:00.

something about it? We've seen the attainment gap getting lower between

:41:01.:41:07.

disadvantaged young people and those who start off from better

:41:08.:41:11.

backgrounds. We put resources into the system. Further education is one

:41:12.:41:19.

of our key aims across the Parliament to make sure it delivers

:41:20.:41:22.

the same gold standard. The House will know that the

:41:23.:41:39.

Secretary of State failed to commit to building a school in this

:41:40.:41:46.

Parliament. Today, the policy Institute have released evidence

:41:47.:41:51.

showing you cannot future proof and 11 plus test. Does she agree with me

:41:52.:41:53.

that selection at 11 will favour that selection at 11 will favour

:41:54.:41:57.

families that can afford it and do nothing to improve the educational

:41:58.:42:00.

outcomes of the most disadvantaged pupils?

:42:01.:42:05.

I disagree. As usual, from the opposition, we have had criticism

:42:06.:42:13.

but no alternative policies whatsoever, and a continued failure

:42:14.:42:15.

by the opposition to set out whether it would close existing grammars. At

:42:16.:42:21.

some stage, it would be fantastic to get clarity on Labour Party policy.

:42:22.:42:25.

We want to see more good school places for children, particularly

:42:26.:42:30.

disadvantaged children, and we know the disadvantaged children on free

:42:31.:42:35.

school meals who get into grammar schools see the attainment gap

:42:36.:42:40.

closed by the time they leave. The new national curriculum that came

:42:41.:42:44.

into force in September 2014 expects every pupil to know the

:42:45.:42:48.

multiplication tables to 12 times 12 by the end of year four. We have

:42:49.:42:54.

strengthened our primary maths assessment to prioritise fluency in

:42:55.:42:57.

written calculation and we have removed the use of calculators from

:42:58.:43:01.

key stage two tests. We have not made an assessment of the proportion

:43:02.:43:04.

of children in Northamptonshire or England who know the multiplication

:43:05.:43:09.

tables by heart, but we plan to intend a multiplication tables check

:43:10.:43:11.

for primary school pupils in England to ensure that every child leaves

:43:12.:43:15.

primary school fluent in that times tables up to and including 12 times

:43:16.:43:22.

12. Which my friend madrasas is 144. We are all much better informed!

:43:23.:43:29.

Would my honourable friend agree that learning your times tables is

:43:30.:43:32.

essential for success and maths, and what is the government's official

:43:33.:43:36.

view to the best way in which times tables should be taught and learnt?

:43:37.:43:41.

We don't have an official way of how this is taught, but we do expect

:43:42.:43:44.

every child to know their tables. The reason it is until year four is

:43:45.:43:50.

so that children can recall the times tables automatically so that

:43:51.:43:53.

they can then tackle long multiplication and long division. We

:43:54.:44:00.

want all pupils to be healthy and active and have the opportunity to

:44:01.:44:04.

engage in sport and physical activity. That is why PE remains a

:44:05.:44:09.

compulsory subject at all four key stages in the national curriculum

:44:10.:44:13.

and since 2013, we have given ?600 million to primary schools to

:44:14.:44:18.

include the quality of PE provision, with that doubling from 2017. Given

:44:19.:44:25.

the urgent need to tackle child obesity and physical inactivity, can

:44:26.:44:27.

my right honourable friend tell the House what steps he is taking to

:44:28.:44:33.

work with organisations such as the UK active outdoor industry

:44:34.:44:36.

Association as well as local organisations like active Cheshire

:44:37.:44:39.

to follow the example of the school where my daughter goes to take

:44:40.:44:45.

forward more daily initiatives? As a fellow Cheshire MP, I am aware of

:44:46.:44:48.

the excellent work done by local schools and local groups in

:44:49.:44:55.

partnerships. We welcome initiatives such as the daily mile. They help

:44:56.:44:59.

teachers have the autonomy to make good decisions on behalf of their

:45:00.:45:03.

pupils to have an array of excellent initiatives, and we continue to

:45:04.:45:09.

promote those. The minister is too modest in declining to take the

:45:10.:45:12.

opportunity to say that he has himself over many years led by

:45:13.:45:16.

example to his repeated and impressive marathon running, with

:45:17.:45:19.

which the whole House by now should be familiar. Physical activities are

:45:20.:45:25.

important to equip the next generation with the skills to

:45:26.:45:28.

contend with both their physical health and the mental health. But

:45:29.:45:33.

alone, it will not content with our nation's obesity crisis. We know

:45:34.:45:36.

from the child measurement figures how challenging this is for our

:45:37.:45:42.

country. Will his government be bringing forward compulsory PSHE so

:45:43.:45:45.

we can equip the next generation with the knowledge and skills to

:45:46.:45:48.

know what they should be eating as well as what physical activities

:45:49.:45:52.

they should be doing? I have already told the House that PE is compulsory

:45:53.:45:57.

at all four key stages. The Secretary of State has set out the

:45:58.:46:01.

need to improve the access and quality of PSHE, and that is

:46:02.:46:06.

something we are looking forward to. I will be taking part in the London

:46:07.:46:09.

Marathon again next year to continue my efforts to lead by example. The

:46:10.:46:13.

honourable gentleman is genuinely a hero! Topical questions, Mr Nigel

:46:14.:46:24.

Huddlestone. If I can just wish everybody a happy Christmas in the

:46:25.:46:29.

House as well. Mr Speaker, the latest stab figures show that there

:46:30.:46:36.

are near Ely 1.8 million -- there are nearly 1.8 million children

:46:37.:46:39.

being taught in outstanding schools than in 2010. Our consultation has

:46:40.:46:42.

ended and we look forward to responding to that in due course. In

:46:43.:46:48.

the past few weeks, we have announced ?114 million for the

:46:49.:46:51.

strategic school improvement fund and have published the next age of

:46:52.:46:55.

consultation on our national fairer funding formula for schools across

:46:56.:46:59.

England, which will finally bring an end to the historic postcode lottery

:47:00.:47:04.

of school funding. I also saw the excellent teacher exchange programme

:47:05.:47:07.

in Shanghai, China, earlier this month, as well as visiting many

:47:08.:47:13.

great schools in our own country. Team GB gave an incredible

:47:14.:47:17.

performance that this year's Rio Olympic Games, bringing home 67

:47:18.:47:21.

medals. One third of those medal winners went to private schools

:47:22.:47:25.

compared to 7% of the population as a whole. What else is the government

:47:26.:47:30.

doing to encourage greater participation in sport in our state

:47:31.:47:36.

schools? Since 2013, we have provided over ?600 million to

:47:37.:47:40.

primary schools through the primary PE and sport premium, which is

:47:41.:47:47.

making a difference. In independent research, schools reported an 84%

:47:48.:47:52.

increase in participation in extracurricular activities. We know

:47:53.:47:56.

there is more to do, and that is why we have doubled a premium to ?320

:47:57.:48:03.

million a year from autumn 2017. I would also like to wish the

:48:04.:48:06.

Secretary of State a Merry Christmas and all the members of the House,

:48:07.:48:10.

but it ain't going to be a Merry Christmas for our schools. The

:48:11.:48:14.

recent government consultation says there will be a floor on schools

:48:15.:48:17.

funding so that no school would lose more than 3% of their funding per

:48:18.:48:22.

pupil as a result of changes to the funding formula. Some schools face

:48:23.:48:29.

to severe cuts to manage. But only has the National Audit Office show

:48:30.:48:33.

that schools are facing funding cuts of 8% per pupil, they have

:48:34.:48:36.

criticised her department for failing to make the scale of the

:48:37.:48:40.

coming cuts clear. The Secretary of State has two choices. Order. I am

:48:41.:48:45.

sorry. If we are going to have a right for the opposition front bench

:48:46.:48:50.

to come in on topical is, and I make this clear with immediate effect, it

:48:51.:48:54.

must be done briefly, otherwise it is completely absorbing the time for

:48:55.:48:58.

backbenchers. A single sentence from the honourable lady will suffice.

:48:59.:49:03.

Sorry, Mr Speaker. Will she cut the funding in 2020 or will she issue

:49:04.:49:08.

guidance to schools on what those cuts will be? We are consulting on

:49:09.:49:14.

proposals for a new national funding for here. Everybody accepts the

:49:15.:49:18.

current system is unfair, transparent and out of date and it

:49:19.:49:23.

doesn't support our aspiration for all children to reach their

:49:24.:49:27.

potential to succeed in adult life. There is little or no justification

:49:28.:49:32.

for the differences that local schools get at the moment. The

:49:33.:49:35.

consultation is now under way. I have no doubt that honourable

:49:36.:49:38.

members across the House will want to respond. The former Chancellor

:49:39.:49:46.

was the most recent senior Conservative to say that the Prime

:49:47.:49:49.

Minister's plans to include international students in migration

:49:50.:49:53.

figures were not sensible. Will the Secretary of State join us and

:49:54.:49:55.

commit to doing everything she can to reverse this foolish policy and

:49:56.:49:59.

ensure that students are removed from the migration statistics? We

:50:00.:50:06.

value the significant contribution that international students make to

:50:07.:50:10.

our universities. We have no plans to introduce a cap on and take. As

:50:11.:50:14.

the Secretary of State recently announced, we will shortly be

:50:15.:50:18.

seeking views on the study immigration root of all parties

:50:19.:50:20.

including the opposition should ensure their point of view is heard.

:50:21.:50:25.

Getting it right early on is crucially important for life

:50:26.:50:31.

chances. Corby provides flagship nursery provision and early

:50:32.:50:34.

intervention provision which local families appreciate and value. With

:50:35.:50:40.

the minister be willing to visit to discuss how the funding reforms can

:50:41.:50:44.

best support this provision going forward? We all know that maintained

:50:45.:50:51.

nursery schools are a small but important part of the early years

:50:52.:50:55.

sector, providing high quality child care and education, often in

:50:56.:51:00.

disadvantaged areas. They have a potentially important role in

:51:01.:51:03.

shaping best practice with other providers in their area, and I would

:51:04.:51:06.

be happy to meet my honourable friend and other representatives to

:51:07.:51:11.

discuss this further. Does that Secretary of State acknowledge that

:51:12.:51:14.

many schools including the primary school in the most deprived part of

:51:15.:51:18.

my constituency which contacted me on Wednesday are struggling

:51:19.:51:21.

financially as a result of amongst other things, the overhead is being

:51:22.:51:25.

heaped on them. It is children with special educational needs who are

:51:26.:51:28.

likely to suffer most from the financial squeeze. In fact, under

:51:29.:51:34.

the national funding formula that we announced last week to stop the

:51:35.:51:38.

consultation on in relation to high needs, there will be no local areas

:51:39.:51:44.

losing. And we will be able to do not only that, but also ensure that

:51:45.:51:47.

those areas that need to gain who have been underfunded will be able

:51:48.:51:53.

to gain up to 3% over 2018-19 and 2019-20. Following the publication

:51:54.:52:02.

of the key stage two results on Thursday, the national average pass

:52:03.:52:08.

rate was 54%. The Lancashire pass rate was 54%, but the pass rate in

:52:09.:52:12.

my constituency was 47%. What steps is this Parliament taking towards

:52:13.:52:19.

best practice for schools like those in my constituency and what can she

:52:20.:52:23.

do to help schools that are underperforming? I share my

:52:24.:52:28.

honourable friend's concern. We want all schools to use evidence -based

:52:29.:52:34.

teaching and to help spread effective practice. We have

:52:35.:52:37.

established a national network of teaching schools as well as school

:52:38.:52:43.

partnerships led by schools that excel in the teaching of maths,

:52:44.:52:46.

phonics and science. International students are vital to an economy and

:52:47.:52:52.

contribute ?7 billion to universities in the UK. Can the

:52:53.:52:55.

Secretary of State confirm whether or not the government plans to use

:52:56.:52:57.

the new teaching and excellence framework to link student visas to

:52:58.:53:02.

the quality of an institution as a means of cutting immigration? No

:53:03.:53:09.

decision has been taken as to the best way to differentiate in order

:53:10.:53:15.

to allow our best institutions to continue to attract international

:53:16.:53:18.

students at this stage. The Home Secretary has indicated that she

:53:19.:53:22.

will be starting a consultation in the new year. All parties are

:53:23.:53:28.

encouraged to contribute to that. Recognising the mental health

:53:29.:53:30.

challenges faced by an increasing number of young people, can my right

:53:31.:53:33.

honourable friend to the House what steps she is taking to work with

:53:34.:53:38.

bodies such as young minds and the NSPCC to help young people and their

:53:39.:53:42.

parents tackle self harming, which is blighting the lives of too many

:53:43.:53:48.

children? Every child and young person should be able to enjoy good

:53:49.:53:52.

mental health and well-being. My honourable friend is right to raise

:53:53.:53:58.

serious concerns about self harm. We are working with the Department of

:53:59.:54:00.

Health to tackle it by funding guidance for schools on teaching

:54:01.:54:06.

about self-harm and pointing parents towards the Mind portal and the

:54:07.:54:12.

invaluable NSPCC ChildLine, but we know there is more to do. The 80

:54:13.:54:17.

sector in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland supported SNP

:54:18.:54:22.

amendments to the higher education Bill on UK research and innovation.

:54:23.:54:26.

Can the Secretary of State tell us if she plans to look at this issue

:54:27.:54:30.

again, or is she happy to ignore the HE voices within the devolved

:54:31.:54:37.

nations? The honourable gentleman will have seen the amendment

:54:38.:54:40.

ensuring that there will be at least one member of the UK border with

:54:41.:54:45.

experience of the excellent research that goes on in at least one of our

:54:46.:54:49.

devolved administrations. Universities like Sunderland do a

:54:50.:54:54.

fantastic job supporting part-time and mature students into higher

:54:55.:54:57.

education. Ministers claim to support this, so why in the Autumn

:54:58.:55:01.

Statement was funding for widening participation cut by 50%? The

:55:02.:55:07.

honourable lady will be encouraged to see that spending on access

:55:08.:55:13.

agreements will increase to over ?800 million in the next financial

:55:14.:55:19.

year, up from ?400 million when this last coalition government came into

:55:20.:55:23.

office, almost doubling the amount being spent on this important area.

:55:24.:55:29.

The Secretary of State will remember the historic and ongoing problems

:55:30.:55:32.

with flooding in Tipton St John primary school. Will she ever

:55:33.:55:37.

announce an early Christmas present for the people of Tipton St John by

:55:38.:55:41.

announcing that her department is going to contribute to the funding

:55:42.:55:47.

solution to relocate the school to Ottery St Mary? Following his

:55:48.:55:50.

meeting on the top of October with my right honourable friend the

:55:51.:55:53.

Secretary of State and representatives from the county to

:55:54.:55:57.

consider plans to relocate the school, a feasibility study was

:55:58.:56:01.

submitted to the educational funding agency. Officials have reviewed the

:56:02.:56:06.

report and have been in dialogue with Devon County Council to address

:56:07.:56:10.

outstanding issues. Once those are resolved, a decision can be taken

:56:11.:56:13.

about whether a central funding contribution can be made and whether

:56:14.:56:14.

he will have a Christmas present. What contingency plans does the

:56:15.:56:31.

Minister has showed a source of recruitment for EU teachers

:56:32.:56:36.

diminish. As I said earlier the government welcomes the contribution

:56:37.:56:41.

EU students and international students make to higher education

:56:42.:56:44.

institutions and there is no plan to introduce a cap on that number. We

:56:45.:56:52.

continue to welcome EU students. Superb schools across my

:56:53.:56:56.

constituency based a double financial whammy of being both rural

:56:57.:56:59.

and small. Under new funding formula is only eight schools will get

:57:00.:57:05.

another blip. Could the minister look again at school is not hitting

:57:06.:57:10.

the traditional markers of deprivation? -- get an uplift. We

:57:11.:57:16.

have a consultation on introducing a national funding formula. We have

:57:17.:57:18.

tried to make sure there are factors affecting schools in more remote

:57:19.:57:25.

locations but also where they have higher cost bases under the

:57:26.:57:28.

additional costs allowance to reflect that as well. This is a

:57:29.:57:34.

consultation and I'm sure she will want to have input into this. Last

:57:35.:57:40.

Tuesday was in 2000 people filled the Royal concert Hall in Nottingham

:57:41.:57:43.

to hear hundreds of schoolchildren singing and playing together in the

:57:44.:57:49.

Nottingham music service Christmas in the city concert. The opportunity

:57:50.:57:54.

to learn to play music is very important in building confidence and

:57:55.:57:58.

enjoyment of school and will she visit Nottingham music service to

:57:59.:58:01.

hear more of the wonderful work but they are doing in our city schools

:58:02.:58:05.

were more than 8000 students are learning to play a musical

:58:06.:58:10.

instrument? ?300 million has been announced for music and the arts. I

:58:11.:58:17.

recognise how important music is and I hope those children will get the

:58:18.:58:21.

benefit of the ongoing investment this government is now putting in.

:58:22.:58:32.

Willmore pupils be able to take up places in grammar schools? Once we

:58:33.:58:35.

have got through the response to consultation and had the chance to

:58:36.:58:38.

change the law hopefully preventing grammar schools from being opened, I

:58:39.:58:42.

hope we will be able to make progress on this. And finally, Fiona

:58:43.:58:50.

McTaggart. Headteachers will be grateful to the Minister for meeting

:58:51.:58:56.

with them to discuss teacher shortages but unfortunately, I have

:58:57.:59:00.

reminded him twice since then about the fact that they have not received

:59:01.:59:04.

the letter he promised at that meeting. Can I expect that before

:59:05.:59:10.

Christmas? I will do my utmost to ensure they receive a letter and I

:59:11.:59:14.

enjoyed reading them, they raised important points, but we are

:59:15.:59:19.

ensuring that we are filling teacher training places and there are more

:59:20.:59:23.

teachers now in the system than last year. Statement. The Prime Minister.

:59:24.:59:36.

Thank you Mr Speaker and with permission I would like to make a

:59:37.:59:42.

statement on last week's European Council. Both the UK and the rest of

:59:43.:59:46.

the EU are preparing for the negotiations that will begin when we

:59:47.:59:50.

trigger Article 50 before the end of March next year. The main focus of

:59:51.:59:54.

this council was rightly on how we can work together to address some of

:59:55.:59:57.

the most pressing challenges we face. These include responding to

:59:58.:00:03.

the migration crisis, strengthening Europe's security and helping

:00:04.:00:06.

alleviate the suffering in Syria. As I have said

:00:07.:00:20.

for as long as the UK is a member of the EU we will continue to play our

:00:21.:00:25.

full part. And that is what this council show. With the UK making a

:00:26.:00:27.

significant contribution on each of the issues. First migration, from

:00:28.:00:30.

the outset the UK has pushed for a conference of approach that focuses

:00:31.:00:32.

on the root causes of migration is the best way to reduce the number of

:00:33.:00:35.

people coming to Europe. I've called for action in transit countries and

:00:36.:00:38.

source countries to destruct smuggling what works, improve local

:00:39.:00:41.

capacity to control borders and support sustainable livelihoods both

:00:42.:00:45.

for people living there and refugees. And we must better

:00:46.:00:50.

distinguish between economic migrants and refugees, swiftly

:00:51.:00:53.

returning those who have no right to remain and thereby sending out a

:00:54.:00:55.

deterrence message to others thinking of embarking on a perilous

:00:56.:01:00.

journey. The council agreed to action in all these areas and the UK

:01:01.:01:04.

remains fully committed to playing our part. We have already provided

:01:05.:01:09.

training to the Libyan coast guard, the Royal Navy is providing

:01:10.:01:14.

practical support in the Mediterranean and Aegean Sea and we

:01:15.:01:17.

will deploy 40 additional staff to the Greek islands to accelerate the

:01:18.:01:21.

processing of claims especially from Iraqi, Afghan and Eritrean nationals

:01:22.:01:25.

and help return those who have no right to stay. Ultimately we do need

:01:26.:01:28.

a long-term sustainable approach and that is the best way to obtain the

:01:29.:01:33.

consent of our people to provide support and sanctuary to those most

:01:34.:01:39.

in need. Turning to security and defence, whether deterring Russian

:01:40.:01:42.

aggression, countering terrorism or fighting organised crime, the UK is

:01:43.:01:47.

firmly committed to the security of our European neighbours. That is

:01:48.:01:50.

true now and will remain true once we've left the EU. At this council

:01:51.:01:55.

will welcome the commitment from all member states to take greater

:01:56.:01:58.

responsibility for their security, invest more resources and develop

:01:59.:02:03.

more capabilities. That is the right approach. And as the council made

:02:04.:02:07.

clear, it should be done in a way that complements rather than

:02:08.:02:12.

duplicates Nato. A stronger EU and the stronger Nato can be mutually

:02:13.:02:16.

reinforcing and this should be our aim. We must never lose sight of the

:02:17.:02:20.

fact that Nato will always be the bedrock of our collective defence in

:02:21.:02:26.

Europe. But we must never to undermine that. We also agreed at

:02:27.:02:31.

the council to renew Tier three economic sanctions on Russia for a

:02:32.:02:34.

further six months, maintaining pressure on Russia to implement the

:02:35.:02:38.

Minsk agreement in full. Turning to the appalling situation in Syria, we

:02:39.:02:43.

have all seen the devastating pictures on our television screens

:02:44.:02:46.

and heard heartbreaking stories of families struggling to get to

:02:47.:02:50.

safety. At this council we heard directly from the Mayor of East

:02:51.:02:55.

Aleppo, a brave and courageous man who already has witnessed his city

:02:56.:02:58.

brought to rubble. His neighbours murdered and lives of children

:02:59.:03:02.

destroyed. He had a simple plea, to get those that have survived through

:03:03.:03:07.

years of conflict, torture and fear, to safety.

:03:08.:03:37.

Together with our European partners we must do all we can to help. The

:03:38.:03:41.

council was unequivocal in its condemnation of President Assad and

:03:42.:03:43.

his backers, Russia and Iran. Who must bear the responsibility for the

:03:44.:03:46.

tragedy in Aleppo. They must now allow the UN to evacuate safely the

:03:47.:03:48.

innocent people of Aleppo, Syria and Sue President Assad claims to

:03:49.:03:50.

represent. We've seen some progress in recent days but a few

:03:51.:04:13.

bus-loads is not enough when there are thousands more that must be in

:04:14.:04:19.

Aleppo, but we are in President Assad may be congratulating his

:04:20.:04:21.

regime forces on their actions in Aleppo, but we are in that this is

:04:22.:04:24.

no victory but a tragedy. One that we will not forget that this is no

:04:25.:04:31.

victory but a tragedy. One that we will not the council Rougerie did

:04:32.:04:36.

that those responsible must be held to of practical support for

:04:37.:04:38.

alongside our diplomatic efforts, the UK will provide a further ?20

:04:39.:04:43.

million of practical support who are most for trusted humanitarian

:04:44.:04:45.

partners, working on the front line in some of the hardest to reach

:04:46.:04:49.

places in Syria, to help them deliver food parcels and medical

:04:50.:04:53.

supplies to those most in need this includes ?10 million for trusted

:04:54.:04:55.

humanitarian partners, working on the front line in some of the

:04:56.:04:58.

hardest to reach places in Syria, to help them deliver food parcels and

:04:59.:05:00.

medical supplies to those most in and an additional ?10 million to

:05:01.:05:04.

Unicef to provide life-saving aid supplies for all those that have

:05:05.:05:08.

been lost but it is not too late to save those who remain at the

:05:09.:05:14.

Jordanian border. It is sadly too late to save all those that have

:05:15.:05:17.

been lost but it is not too late to save those who and turning the

:05:18.:05:19.

Council on the UK plans for leaving the EU and explained I updated the

:05:20.:05:22.

Council on the UK plans for leaving the EU and explained that two this

:05:23.:05:27.

House voted I explained that two weeks I explained that two a

:05:28.:05:36.

considerable this House voted by a to support the government by

:05:37.:05:39.

delivering the referendum result and invoking article 50 before the end

:05:40.:05:45.

of, almost six to one to support the government by delivering the

:05:46.:05:46.

referendum result and invoking Article 50 before the end of month

:05:47.:05:54.

on whether the will respect the verdict of independent judiciary but

:05:55.:05:57.

equally clear that whichever way the judgment goes we will meet the

:05:58.:06:03.

timetable that I have set out. I also reaffirmed my commitment to a

:06:04.:06:07.

smooth and orderly exit and in this period made it clear to the other EU

:06:08.:06:10.

leaders that it remains my objective that we give reassurance early in

:06:11.:06:14.

negotiations to EU citizens living in the UK and UK citizens living in

:06:15.:06:18.

EU countries that their right to stay where they have made their

:06:19.:06:23.

homes will be protected. This is an issue I would like to agree quickly

:06:24.:06:27.

but clearly requires the agreement of the rest of the EU. I welcomed

:06:28.:06:31.

the subsequent short discussion between the 27 other leaders on

:06:32.:06:35.

their own plans for the UK withdrawal. It describe the other

:06:36.:06:38.

leaders prepare for the negotiations just as we are making our own

:06:39.:06:43.

preparations. That is in everyone's best interests. My aim is to cement

:06:44.:06:48.

the UK is a close partner of the EU once we've left as I've said I want

:06:49.:06:53.

the deal that we negotiate to reflect the kind of mature

:06:54.:06:56.

cooperative relationship that close friends and allies enjoy. A deal to

:06:57.:06:59.

give our company is the maximum freedom to trade with the European

:07:00.:07:03.

markets and allow European businesses to do the same year. A

:07:04.:07:08.

deal that will deliver the deepest possible cooperation to ensure

:07:09.:07:10.

national security and that of our allies but a deal that will mean

:07:11.:07:15.

when it comes to decisions about our national interest, such as how we

:07:16.:07:18.

control immigration, we can make these decisions for ourselves. And

:07:19.:07:25.

that our laws are once again made in the UK and not in Brussels. The calm

:07:26.:07:27.

and measured approach this government will honour the will of

:07:28.:07:30.

the British people and secure the right deal to make a successful

:07:31.:07:36.

Brexit for the UK, the EU and the world. I commend this statement to

:07:37.:07:44.

the House. I would like to thank the Prime Minister for an advance copy

:07:45.:07:47.

of her statement and as we approach the end of this year I think we can

:07:48.:07:50.

all agree this has been a year of enormous change in this country and

:07:51.:07:55.

the rest of the world. With that change comes a great deal of

:07:56.:08:00.

division. As we move swiftly to the triggering of Article 50, I want to

:08:01.:08:03.

appeal to the prime Minster to not only work hard to heal the divisions

:08:04.:08:10.

in the UK but also make sure her new years resolution includes a to build

:08:11.:08:15.

better relations with our European partners so we get the best deal for

:08:16.:08:19.

the people of this country. Not just a Brexit that benefits business and

:08:20.:08:25.

bankers, and at the moment it is clear that on the international

:08:26.:08:28.

stage the Prime Minister and the UK are becoming increasingly isolated.

:08:29.:08:33.

If we are to build a successful Britain after Brexit it is more

:08:34.:08:37.

vital than ever that our relationship with our European

:08:38.:08:40.

partners remains strong, cordial and respectful. It is also clear through

:08:41.:08:47.

my own discussions with European leaders that they are becoming

:08:48.:08:51.

increasingly frustrated by her shambolic government and the

:08:52.:08:54.

contradictory approach to Brexit negotiations. The mixed messages

:08:55.:09:00.

from her front bench only adds to the confusion. This government fails

:09:01.:09:05.

to speak for the whole country, instead we hear a bubble of voices

:09:06.:09:08.

speaking for themselves and their vested interests. For instance last

:09:09.:09:16.

week we were told by the permanent representative to the EU that a

:09:17.:09:20.

Brexit deal may take ten years. Contradicting what the Secretary of

:09:21.:09:25.

State for Brexit told us at a select committee that day when he said that

:09:26.:09:29.

a deal could be struck in 18 months. A bit of a difference. We also heard

:09:30.:09:34.

from the Chancellor told us that Britain was looking for a

:09:35.:09:39.

for the Secretary of State for for the Secretary of State for

:09:40.:09:43.

a transitional deal. Saying that any a transitional deal. Saying that any

:09:44.:09:49.

would go against the wishes of those would go against the wishes of those

:09:50.:09:50.

who voted to leave. The people of Britain deserve better than this

:09:51.:09:54.

confusion at the heart of government. Confidence has been

:09:55.:10:01.

lost, the Office for Budget Responsibility made their own

:10:02.:10:03.

judgment on the government Brexit plans in November. When they

:10:04.:10:08.

published a new forecast for 2017. Growth was revised down, wages

:10:09.:10:15.

revised down, business investment revised down. The only thing that

:10:16.:10:20.

the Obi are raised was their forecast for inflation. They are

:10:21.:10:24.

risking even weaker growth than they have delivered so far, an exodus of

:10:25.:10:32.

financial services and hitting the manufacturing industry hard. I

:10:33.:10:36.

welcomed that the government have now accepted the labour demands for

:10:37.:10:42.

a published Brexit plan. But it is still unclear as to how the plan

:10:43.:10:46.

will be presented and when we will receive it here in Parliament. So

:10:47.:10:53.

can the Prime Minister today do what the Secretary of State for Brexit,

:10:54.:10:57.

the Chancellor of the Exchequer, the Secretary of State for International

:10:58.:10:59.

trade and the permanent Secretary to the EU all failed to do last week,

:11:00.:11:04.

and give this country some real answers. Can she tell us when the

:11:05.:11:08.

House will receive the government plans for Article 50, how long we

:11:09.:11:12.

will be given to scrutinise that plan, can she also tell us how long

:11:13.:11:17.

the British Government envisages the whole process taking and can she

:11:18.:11:21.

tell us if the British Government will be looking for an interim

:11:22.:11:26.

transitional deal with the European Union. These are basic questions

:11:27.:11:28.

that still have not been answered almost six months after the UK voted

:11:29.:11:31.

to leave the EU. There are also reports that the UK

:11:32.:11:41.

will be asked to pay a 50 billion euro bill to honour commitments to

:11:42.:11:46.

the European budget until 2020. Can the Prime Minister tell the House if

:11:47.:11:51.

this is the case, and can she update us on the government's contingency

:11:52.:11:55.

plans for those projects and programmes in the UK that are

:11:56.:11:59.

currently reliant on EU funding after 2020? There is much concern in

:12:00.:12:03.

many parts of the country about those programmes. I welcome the

:12:04.:12:09.

Prime Minister's desire to bring forward and give greater clarity to

:12:10.:12:12.

the issue of rights of European Union citizens in the UK. However,

:12:13.:12:18.

if the Prime Minister is serious about this, why wait? Why won't this

:12:19.:12:25.

government and the worry, as this House demanded in July, and give an

:12:26.:12:29.

unequivocal commitment to guarantee people's rights before Article 50 is

:12:30.:12:37.

triggered, as both the TUC and the British Chamber of Commerce have

:12:38.:12:41.

called for this weekend? Not only is it the right thing to do, it would

:12:42.:12:46.

also send a clear signal to our colleagues and our European friends

:12:47.:12:51.

that Britain is committed to doing the right thing and committing to a

:12:52.:12:57.

friendly future relationship. With that in mind, I would like to take

:12:58.:13:02.

this opportunity to welcome the Austrian President, Alexander van

:13:03.:13:06.

der Bellen, on his election. I am sure we will all agree his victory

:13:07.:13:12.

in the presidential elections represents a victory for respect and

:13:13.:13:17.

kindness over hate and division. And it is a signal against the dangerous

:13:18.:13:24.

rise of the far right across Europe. Mr Speaker, I am also glad the

:13:25.:13:28.

European Union Council leaders discussed the other pressing global

:13:29.:13:32.

issues last week, notably the terrible situation in Syria. I want

:13:33.:13:38.

to use this opportunity to renew the calls I made in a letter to the

:13:39.:13:41.

Prime Minister last week for an urgent and concerted effort from the

:13:42.:13:45.

government to press for an end to the violence and a UN led ceasefire.

:13:46.:13:51.

The creation of a UN brokered humanitarian corridor and the

:13:52.:13:59.

insurance of an end to attacks on the civilian publishing as well as

:14:00.:14:07.

urgent talks through the UN to ensure a political settlement. The

:14:08.:14:10.

rules of war are being broken on all sides. Labour has long condemned

:14:11.:14:14.

attacks on civilian targets on all sides, including those by Russian

:14:15.:14:18.

and pro-Syrian government forces in Aleppo. For which there can be no

:14:19.:14:28.

excuse. I also know the issue of Cyprus and reunification was raised

:14:29.:14:31.

at the council meeting. Could the Prime Minister give us an update on

:14:32.:14:35.

what was said on this issue? Britain is after all a guarantor of Cypriot

:14:36.:14:41.

independence from the 1960 treaty. There is a lot to do in 2017, with a

:14:42.:14:47.

lot of important decisions to be made. I make a plea to the Prime

:14:48.:14:51.

Minister to represent all sides, whether they voted to leave or

:14:52.:14:55.

remain, and to make the right decisions that benefit not just her

:14:56.:15:00.

party, but everyone in this country. Prime Minister. Thank you, Mr

:15:01.:15:10.

Speaker. On the issue of Cyprus, yes, the president updated us on the

:15:11.:15:13.

talks that have taken place. These are important talks. We all accept

:15:14.:15:18.

that we have perhaps the best opportunity for a settlement in

:15:19.:15:21.

Cyprus that we have seen for many years. The president made clear that

:15:22.:15:28.

the talks have been taking place under UN auspices between the two

:15:29.:15:36.

leaders. They have been encouraged by the leaders on the island and it

:15:37.:15:39.

is important to recognise the leadership they have shown in

:15:40.:15:43.

relation to this. The honourable gentleman is right, there are three

:15:44.:15:46.

guarantors, Greece, Turkey and the UK. We stand ready to play our part

:15:47.:15:50.

is required and when it is appropriate for us to do so. There

:15:51.:15:55.

is the possibility of a meeting coming up in January. There is the

:15:56.:15:58.

possibility that that will be attended by others like the UK. The

:15:59.:16:04.

EU said it stood ready to participate if that was going to be

:16:05.:16:08.

part of helping this deal to come through. Secondly, on the issue of

:16:09.:16:13.

Syria, as I said, the honourable gentleman wrote to me asking to take

:16:14.:16:18.

action through the United Nations. We have consistently been taking

:16:19.:16:21.

action through the UN. We have worked over the weekend to ensure

:16:22.:16:26.

that there was a UN Security Council resolution today. That was accept

:16:27.:16:31.

it, as members of this House will know. There have been other Security

:16:32.:16:34.

Council resolutions previously that Russia have vetoed. The most recent

:16:35.:16:40.

one, Russia and China vetoed. But we now have a resolution that has been

:16:41.:16:45.

accepted by Russia and China and accepted unanimously by the Security

:16:46.:16:49.

Council that provides for UN monitoring, and also for

:16:50.:16:51.

humanitarian access and UN monitoring of people leaving Aleppo,

:16:52.:16:58.

which I think is important. He spent most of his comments in relation to

:16:59.:17:04.

the issue of Brexit. He started talking about is wanting a deal that

:17:05.:17:08.

benefits the UK. Yes, I have been saying that ever since I first came

:17:09.:17:13.

into this role. We want to make sure we get the best possible deal. But

:17:14.:17:17.

in negotiations, you don't get the best possible deal by laying out

:17:18.:17:25.

everything you want in advance. He talks about isolation. Well, the

:17:26.:17:32.

point is that the UK is going to leave the European Union. We are

:17:33.:17:36.

leaving the group that is the European Union. In due course, they

:17:37.:17:41.

will be meeting only 27 because we will no longer be a member. But what

:17:42.:17:46.

is clear from what happened at the European Council is that as long as

:17:47.:17:49.

we are a member, we will continue to play our full part within the

:17:50.:17:53.

European Union. He talked about the question of EU funds which are

:17:54.:17:59.

currently intended to continue beyond the date at which we would be

:18:00.:18:03.

leaving the European Union. The Chancellor of the Exchequer set out

:18:04.:18:06.

clearly weeks ago what the position on this was, that those funds will

:18:07.:18:11.

continue to be met, provided they give value for money and meet the UK

:18:12.:18:15.

Government's objective is. He talked about the length of the process. As

:18:16.:18:19.

he knows, once we trigger article 50, the treaty allows for a process

:18:20.:18:23.

that can take up to two years. Of course, how long within that process

:18:24.:18:28.

it does take depends on the progress of the negotiations that take place.

:18:29.:18:33.

He then talked about uncertainty and needing investment to come into the

:18:34.:18:38.

UK. He gave the impression that there was this bleak picture in

:18:39.:18:41.

terms of the economy. Fastest growing economy this year in the G7,

:18:42.:18:47.

I would remind him. Let's look at companies that have announced new

:18:48.:18:52.

additional investment since the Brexit referendum. Honda, Jaguar

:18:53.:19:01.

Land Rover, Nissan, Howdy, Facebook, Google, GSK. The list will continue,

:19:02.:19:06.

because this is still a good place to invest. It is still a good place

:19:07.:19:10.

to grow businesses. Then he talks about confusion on the front bench.

:19:11.:19:14.

Well, he has obviously been looking at his own front bench when he can

:19:15.:19:19.

to does this. Let's take one simple issue of immigration. The Shadow

:19:20.:19:23.

Home Secretary suggests freedom of movement should be maintained. The

:19:24.:19:26.

Shadow Chancellor said we should have a fair deal on freedom of

:19:27.:19:30.

movement, and the shadow Brexit secretary says we should have

:19:31.:19:33.

immigration controls. They can't even agree on one aspect of the

:19:34.:19:40.

European Union and leaving it. With the right honourable gentleman's

:19:41.:19:44.

negotiation techniques, if he was in office, we would be getting the

:19:45.:19:47.

worst possible deal we could get for the United Kingdom. Mr Iain Duncan

:19:48.:19:57.

Smith. May I ask my right honourable friend that when she was at the

:19:58.:20:02.

council and she reminded the council leaders about her generous offer to

:20:03.:20:07.

allow EU citizens who were here in the UK to remain and for UK citizens

:20:08.:20:13.

to receive the same privilege, did she manage to take to one side

:20:14.:20:17.

Donald Tusk and ask him simply white, when his own government was

:20:18.:20:21.

keen to agree to that, he turned around and vetoed it? My right

:20:22.:20:26.

honourable friend is right. I made clear once again that I hope that

:20:27.:20:30.

this issue of EU citizens living here and UK citizens living in the

:20:31.:20:34.

EU member states can be dealt with at an early stage of the

:20:35.:20:38.

negotiations. The other member states and the council have been

:20:39.:20:42.

clear that they are not prepared to enter into negotiations before

:20:43.:20:45.

article 50 is triggered. But I will continue to remind them of our hope,

:20:46.:20:50.

for good reason, because we want to reassure people, that this can be

:20:51.:20:53.

dealt with at an early stage and then the people concerned can get on

:20:54.:20:59.

with their lives. I thank the Prime Minister for advanced site of her

:21:00.:21:06.

statement and wish colleagues a very Merry Christmas, happy Hogmanay and

:21:07.:21:12.

a fantastic 2017. Mr Speaker, it is now more than six months since the

:21:13.:21:21.

Brexit referendum, when more than 6 million voters in Scotland voted to

:21:22.:21:25.

remain. Tomorrow, the Scottish Government will become the first

:21:26.:21:28.

administration in the UK to publish its plans in detail. The Prime

:21:29.:21:31.

Minister has said she will seriously engage with the Scottish Government.

:21:32.:21:37.

She says she has a Respect agenda. So will the Prime Minister commit to

:21:38.:21:40.

meet with the First Minister to incorporate priorities of the

:21:41.:21:44.

Scottish Government in the UK negotiating position? On security,

:21:45.:21:49.

the Prime Minister's statement welcomed commitments on capability

:21:50.:21:53.

including cyber threats. Without going into details for obvious

:21:54.:21:57.

reasons, is the Prime Minister confident that enough safeguards are

:21:58.:22:04.

in place regarding democratic institutions in the UK, including

:22:05.:22:06.

political parties? And on the issue of Middle East violence, it was

:22:07.:22:12.

discussed in the council and across the House, we obviously welcome

:22:13.:22:15.

initiatives that make a difference in Syria. But there was no mention

:22:16.:22:20.

in her statement of Yemen. Is it true that senior ministers have

:22:21.:22:24.

known for some time that UK cluster munitions have been used in the

:22:25.:22:28.

current conflict in Yemen, and when was the Prime Minister told about UK

:22:29.:22:33.

cluster munitions in Yemen, and when will the UK join our European

:22:34.:22:37.

partners in starting to have a more ethical foreign policy on both Saudi

:22:38.:22:45.

Arabia and Yemen? Prime Minister. On the issue of Yemen, the right

:22:46.:22:47.

honourable gentleman will have seen that there will be a statement being

:22:48.:22:51.

made by the Defence Secretary later this afternoon. This was not an

:22:52.:22:55.

issue that was discussed at the European Council. We focused on the

:22:56.:22:58.

issues I mentioned in my fitment. He talks about cyber security and

:22:59.:23:04.

political parties. I have to say that maintaining their cyber

:23:05.:23:07.

security is a matter for individual political parties. It is up to them

:23:08.:23:11.

to look at how they undertake that. Then he referred to the document the

:23:12.:23:15.

Scottish Government will be publishing tomorrow. I took a call

:23:16.:23:17.

from the First Minister this morning and I assured her that we will look

:23:18.:23:22.

seriously at the proposals the government in Scotland is bringing

:23:23.:23:25.

forward. I welcome the fact that they are looking at their

:23:26.:23:29.

priorities. We have encouraged all devolved administrations to look at

:23:30.:23:32.

their priorities so that they can be taken into account in the UK

:23:33.:23:36.

negotiations on leaving the EU. There is already a structure that

:23:37.:23:40.

enables us to discuss this with the devolved authorities. And there will

:23:41.:23:52.

be a further session of the plenary in January. These normally only meet

:23:53.:23:58.

once a year, but we are accelerating the number of meetings precisely so

:23:59.:24:03.

that we can engage with the devolved administrations on these issues.

:24:04.:24:10.

John Redwood. When people in the opposition and in business say that

:24:11.:24:13.

we should make compromises by offering money or some control over

:24:14.:24:17.

our laws or some control over our borders to get a deal, does the

:24:18.:24:20.

Prime Minister agree that they are bidding against our country, making

:24:21.:24:24.

a good deal more difficult to achieve and misunderstanding what

:24:25.:24:30.

the majority voted for? I say to my right honourable friend, I agree

:24:31.:24:34.

with him that what the public want is for us to get the best possible

:24:35.:24:39.

deal for the UK. They want to leave the European Union and deliver

:24:40.:24:42.

success in doing that. It is right that we don't give out every detail

:24:43.:24:46.

of our negotiating strategy because if we did, that would be the way to

:24:47.:24:55.

get the worst possible deal. On Friday, together with other

:24:56.:24:56.

honourable members from Wolverhampton, I met with UTC

:24:57.:25:02.

Aerospace, which employs 1600 people in high-value jobs in Wolverhampton.

:25:03.:25:09.

That company raised with us membership of the European aviation

:25:10.:25:14.

safety agency. When the Prime Minister says Brexit means Brexit,

:25:15.:25:19.

does she mean we will no longer participate in the European aviation

:25:20.:25:23.

safety agency and other agencies such as the European medical agency

:25:24.:25:30.

and many others? It is precisely because we need to look with great

:25:31.:25:35.

care at the wide range of our relationships with Europe that we

:25:36.:25:38.

have taken time before we trigger Article 50. This is exactly the sort

:25:39.:25:42.

of work that the department for exiting the European Union is doing,

:25:43.:25:45.

looking at the range of organisations, some of which are

:25:46.:25:48.

linked to membership of the European Union and some of which are not so

:25:49.:25:53.

linked to the EU. They are crucially talking to each sector about what is

:25:54.:25:56.

important for them so that we understand what matters to business.

:25:57.:26:07.

I welcome these are preparations before triggering Article 50 and

:26:08.:26:16.

would she agree that a speedy conclusion of the subsequent

:26:17.:26:20.

negotiations would be in the interests of this country both to

:26:21.:26:25.

put an end to damaging uncertainty and because according to the Office

:26:26.:26:28.

for Budget Responsibility, every additional weeks of delay in leaving

:26:29.:26:34.

the EU costs the country during ?50 million nett per week. As I said in

:26:35.:26:46.

an earlier response, the treaty sets out for a potential two-year process

:26:47.:26:52.

of negotiations. How long that is necessary to take is of course a

:26:53.:26:57.

matter for the progress of those discussions and talks. So I think

:26:58.:27:03.

that is a valid point about the sooner certainty can come the better

:27:04.:27:06.

for business but of course we need to make sure we're getting the right

:27:07.:27:14.

deal for the UK. Perhaps the Prime Minister could tell us with some

:27:15.:27:19.

certainty when her plan for exiting the EU which she has agreed to

:27:20.:27:22.

present to the House is actually going to be ready. Presumably some

:27:23.:27:27.

time before she triggers Article 50. Yes. In their joint statement of the

:27:28.:27:42.

15th of December at the president of the European Council and of the

:27:43.:27:49.

European Commission and the heads of state of all the 27 member states

:27:50.:27:53.

unanimously insisted and I quote, access to the single market requires

:27:54.:27:58.

acceptance of all four freedoms including freedom of movement. Does

:27:59.:28:04.

my right honourable friend agree that such an ultimatum is both

:28:05.:28:08.

unacceptable and will not be accepted by the British people. I

:28:09.:28:13.

have said all along I believe part of the vote to leave the EU,

:28:14.:28:19.

underlying that was the desire for the British people to have control

:28:20.:28:23.

over immigration and for decisions on immigration to be made by the

:28:24.:28:27.

government here in the UK. And we should deliver on that. I look at

:28:28.:28:32.

these issues in terms of the deal with want to negotiate, in terms of

:28:33.:28:35.

the outcome that we want, which is the best possible deal for trading

:28:36.:28:39.

with an operating within the single European market but doing that

:28:40.:28:43.

commensurate with the other requirements we have, which is

:28:44.:28:47.

British laws made here in Britain and control on immigration.

:28:48.:28:58.

Following the European Council it appears the Prime Minister is

:28:59.:29:01.

leading the country not just out of the EU but also out of the single

:29:02.:29:05.

market and the customs union. Neither of which were on the ballot

:29:06.:29:15.

paper last June. If instead remain had won by whisker last June, but

:29:16.:29:20.

the government have had a mandate I wonder for a hard remain, would

:29:21.:29:27.

David Cameron now has been stood there bouncing us into the euro and

:29:28.:29:32.

showing and will she agree that as ludicrous as it sounds, it is no

:29:33.:29:36.

more ludicrous than the extreme rewriting of the referendum result

:29:37.:29:38.

which she now seeks to impose on the British people. The majority vote at

:29:39.:29:47.

the referendum was for the UK to leave the EU. That is what we will

:29:48.:29:54.

be delivering. Once again the right honourable gentleman raises

:29:55.:29:59.

questions about means rather than ends. What we want is the best

:30:00.:30:04.

possible outcome in terms of the trading relationship with the EU.

:30:05.:30:10.

And for operating within the EU. That is where the focus should be

:30:11.:30:13.

and not on particular processes to get there. The council conclusions

:30:14.:30:22.

stress the continued resolve of the union to deepen and strengthen its

:30:23.:30:26.

relationship with the Ukraine in face of current challenges. How

:30:27.:30:30.

strongly does she expect government to support Ukraine after we have

:30:31.:30:37.

left the EU? It is absolutely right that the European Council was

:30:38.:30:42.

concerned with and wanted to ensure that we had that continuing

:30:43.:30:46.

relationship with Ukraine. The UK is already supporting Ukraine in a

:30:47.:30:52.

number of ways. And obviously when we have left the EU we will look at

:30:53.:30:56.

our continuing bilateral relationships with countries across

:30:57.:31:01.

the European continent. We are already providing money to establish

:31:02.:31:06.

a national anti-corruption bureau in Ukraine, supporting energy reform in

:31:07.:31:10.

Ukraine to reduce dependence on Russian gas, offering defensive

:31:11.:31:14.

training to the Ukraine armed forces and supporting internal reform with

:31:15.:31:19.

Ukrainian Ministry of Defence. So in a number of areas where already

:31:20.:31:23.

supporting Ukraine and expect we will continue to want to have a good

:31:24.:31:27.

bilateral relationship with them once we have left the EU. Could the

:31:28.:31:35.

Prime Minister update as if they have been any discussions about how

:31:36.:31:38.

successful the EU thinks its arrangement with Turkey with regards

:31:39.:31:45.

to order and flow of immigration has been. We support the continuing EU -

:31:46.:31:53.

Turkey deal and it has had an impact on migratory movements but of course

:31:54.:31:56.

there are elements to that deal with which the UK is not involved because

:31:57.:32:01.

they involve the Schengen zone member states. That is still a

:32:02.:32:04.

matter of being discussed by those members of the Schengen zone. The UK

:32:05.:32:11.

is not part of that. But I think we should recognise that the

:32:12.:32:15.

arrangements in place so far have had an impact on movements into

:32:16.:32:19.

Greece from Turkey. And crucially, I think what we need to see is making

:32:20.:32:24.

sure the process of returning people who have no right to be in Greece is

:32:25.:32:28.

operating as swiftly as possible. That is one reason why we are

:32:29.:32:32.

offering extra staff to Greece to enable that process and those claims

:32:33.:32:38.

to be processed more smoothly. The whole house will welcome the focus

:32:39.:32:47.

reported from the meeting on Syria and Aleppo. The additional British

:32:48.:32:51.

humanitarian support including for Unicef that she has announced on the

:32:52.:32:55.

part played by British diplomats and the government over the weekend in

:32:56.:33:01.

securing the successful UN resolution very much along the lines

:33:02.:33:04.

of the debate in this House last week, will she ensured that over the

:33:05.:33:09.

Christmas and New Year holiday, the full span of government attention

:33:10.:33:14.

continues on securing unfettered access for humanitarian workers for

:33:15.:33:20.

medical supplies and food. Bearing in mind there are still more than

:33:21.:33:24.

50,000 people out in the open in Aleppo. Very frightened and in

:33:25.:33:32.

temperatures well below freezing. My right honourable friend recognises

:33:33.:33:36.

it is not just about agreeing resolution but about ensuring that

:33:37.:33:40.

that is implemented. So the desire to ensure that humanitarian aid is

:33:41.:33:44.

available to people and people are able to leave safely is put into

:33:45.:33:48.

practice. I can assure him we recognise the importance of getting

:33:49.:33:52.

the momentum of this. It is over the coming days and weeks that this will

:33:53.:33:56.

be important to be doing this and the focus will continue to be on

:33:57.:34:02.

that. May I ask about the risks of that cliff edge prompting some key

:34:03.:34:07.

financial institutions already to think about moving some businesses

:34:08.:34:13.

out of the UK. Does she agree with the chance of the said it would be

:34:14.:34:19.

helpful if we started to discuss a transitional arrangement going

:34:20.:34:21.

beyond that particular deadline and started to discuss that now. The

:34:22.:34:28.

Chancellor reflected the comments I made when I spoke to the CBI, which

:34:29.:34:32.

was a recognition of the desire for business to be able to have some

:34:33.:34:36.

certainty beyond that point of leaving the EU. That is one reason

:34:37.:34:40.

why we have already announced that we're going to bring EU law into

:34:41.:34:45.

domestic law in the UK that point so people can have some certainty about

:34:46.:34:49.

what that point of movement from membership of the EU to outside it

:34:50.:35:01.

is. The CSU economy minister of Bavaria gave a clear warning to

:35:02.:35:04.

coalition partners in Berlin in November that uncertainty could

:35:05.:35:07.

damage the Bavarian economy is the UK is one of its most important

:35:08.:35:12.

trading partners. Does the Prime Minister appreciate that they will

:35:13.:35:16.

be significant forces in Europe supporting her timetable to trigger

:35:17.:35:19.

Article 50 at the end of March in order to bring conclusion to the

:35:20.:35:24.

arrangement of pre-trade existing between us and Bavaria. Well it is

:35:25.:35:32.

an important point, he raises a specific case in relation to Bavaria

:35:33.:35:36.

but overall the point is simple, this is not just about what is in

:35:37.:35:39.

the interests of the UK but also about what is in the interests of

:35:40.:35:43.

the remaining 27 members of the EU. As we negotiate the deal I expect us

:35:44.:35:48.

to be negotiated a deal which is right in the UK but will retain a

:35:49.:35:55.

strong EU with which we will be trading and with which we will be

:35:56.:35:57.

working together on matters of mutual interest. I welcome the

:35:58.:36:04.

extension of sanctions against Russia for six months but there has

:36:05.:36:08.

been little visible progress on the Minsk accord during the time, during

:36:09.:36:14.

recent months. What will the extension of these sanctions

:36:15.:36:21.

achieve? The council was updated by Chancellor Merkel and president

:36:22.:36:23.

Francois Hollande who have been leading in relation to discussions

:36:24.:36:27.

on the Minsk agreement. Everyone is concerned that we still have the

:36:28.:36:29.

position where the Minsk agreement has not been put into place. I

:36:30.:36:37.

believe we need to roll over sanctions to show our continuing

:36:38.:36:41.

rigger on this matter. And a continuing expectation for Russia

:36:42.:36:44.

that they will actually abide by the requirements. Instead of EU

:36:45.:36:56.

countries dangerously duplicating Nato structures but without American

:36:57.:37:00.

participation, would it not do much more for the defence of Europe is

:37:01.:37:06.

countries like France and Germany and other EU states that are members

:37:07.:37:12.

of Nato actually spend a minimum of 2% of their GDP on defence. My

:37:13.:37:19.

honourable friend is right that we want to see other countries also

:37:20.:37:23.

stepping up to the plate. This country is spending 2% of its budget

:37:24.:37:28.

on defence, we think others should be as well and I would encourage

:37:29.:37:36.

them to do so. Is it not clear that there are many differences on her

:37:37.:37:42.

side of freedom of movement. Would also not be the case that if this

:37:43.:37:49.

arrangement continues, it would make a mockery of a majority decision

:37:50.:37:55.

taken by the British people in the referendum. As I said earlier I

:37:56.:38:04.

think an important part of the vote, one of the things underlying the

:38:05.:38:09.

vote, was a desire for people to see the British Government bringing

:38:10.:38:15.

control of immigration back home. I suggest if he has that view of

:38:16.:38:20.

freedom of movement he might talk to his own front bench. Over 10,000

:38:21.:38:31.

Ukrainian servicemen have now been killed since the start of the

:38:32.:38:35.

Russian backed conflict and progress on Minsk appears to be stalled.

:38:36.:38:38.

Would she agree that we have a special responsibility in this since

:38:39.:38:44.

we are signatories of the Budapest Memorandum and will she examine what

:38:45.:38:47.

further pressure we can put on Russia and also what additional

:38:48.:38:50.

assistance we can give to the people of Ukraine. I have to say we do look

:38:51.:39:01.

at what more we can do. My right honourable friend the Defence

:39:02.:39:04.

Secretary announced recently some extension of the training of

:39:05.:39:10.

Ukrainian forces. And my right honourable friend the Foreign

:39:11.:39:12.

Secretary also looks at whether there are other ways in which we can

:39:13.:39:17.

ensure that the Minsk agreement is implemented in full. Of course I

:39:18.:39:21.

think it is important that we work through the European Union in doing

:39:22.:39:24.

that and put the pressure of the EU behind this. Did she discuss with

:39:25.:39:31.

fellow leaders interference by Russia in the political processes of

:39:32.:39:34.

Western democracies including our own using propaganda and cyber, what

:39:35.:39:40.

action will she take to investigate what may already happened in this

:39:41.:39:43.

country and how we can stop it happening in the future. I think

:39:44.:39:53.

everyone is aware of the way in which Russia is currently operating

:39:54.:39:56.

and the more aggressive stance rushes taking across a whole range

:39:57.:40:03.

of ways, a whole range of aspects. I'm sure the right honourable

:40:04.:40:06.

gentleman will not expect me to go into detail as to how we look at

:40:07.:40:10.

these issues particularly in relation to cyber matters is the

:40:11.:40:14.

right honourable gentleman the spokesman for the Scottish National

:40:15.:40:19.

Party indicated earlier. But I can assure the right honourable

:40:20.:40:23.

gentleman that we take the actions of state sponsored intervention and

:40:24.:40:34.

cyber attacks very seriously. 2.8 million EU citizens must be assured

:40:35.:40:38.

of their position in the UK, that has been welcomed. I work on a

:40:39.:40:48.

report providing suggestions on how to regularise the immigration status

:40:49.:40:53.

of the 1.8 million people on track to gain permanent residents and who

:40:54.:40:57.

we suggest should be granted indefinite leave to remain. I am

:40:58.:41:04.

aware of this report and I can assure her that we of course look

:41:05.:41:07.

seriously as any proposals but come forward on this and other matters

:41:08.:41:16.

relating to Brexit. Could I pressed her on the replied that she gave to

:41:17.:41:20.

the leader of the Scottish National Party on Yemen? I appreciate she was

:41:21.:41:25.

the only leader of a foreign country to address the GCC recently and the

:41:26.:41:29.

Foreign Secretary has spoken courageously about the situation in

:41:30.:41:33.

the Yemen. We celebrate Christmas on Sunday, but the people of that

:41:34.:41:38.

country will be eating grass and drinking sea water in order to

:41:39.:41:43.

survive. What does it say about politics in 2016 that the richest

:41:44.:41:48.

club in the world is unable to find time to discuss one of the poorest

:41:49.:41:49.

countries. I can assure the honourable

:41:50.:41:58.

gentleman we're taking the situation in

:41:59.:42:13.

Yemen seriously. Not least in humanitarian aid, but also my

:42:14.:42:18.

honourable friend, the Foreign Office minister was in Riyadh, and

:42:19.:42:21.

one of the issues he was discussing was the opening of the port, save

:42:22.:42:25.

supplies can get through. My reading of the council conclusions on

:42:26.:42:28.

defence corporation is the strength of British implements, rather than

:42:29.:42:30.

the weakness, the Leader of the Opposition's inclusions. Given we

:42:31.:42:35.

spent two percent of GDP on defence, 0.7% on aid, both sides of that

:42:36.:42:40.

argument, are we in a good position to make this case? When we have

:42:41.:42:44.

left, our European partners will still want that close relationship,

:42:45.:42:51.

why we will get a good deal. My honourable friend is absolutely

:42:52.:42:55.

right. We should be proud of the fact that in this country we spent

:42:56.:43:00.

two percent on defence, 0.7% on international aid. Something

:43:01.:43:05.

recognised not just across the European Union, but internationally.

:43:06.:43:10.

It is that which enables us as the United Kingdom to take the lead on a

:43:11.:43:14.

number of issues. He is absolutely right, from everything we saw in the

:43:15.:43:18.

position and role the United Kingdom has played in the EU Council

:43:19.:43:22.

discussions, it is clear people will continue to want to have a good

:43:23.:43:26.

relationship with United Kingdom, that puts us in a good place in

:43:27.:43:31.

getting the right deal. Can I congratulate the French and British

:43:32.:43:35.

diplomats in New York who got the security council resolution today?

:43:36.:43:41.

Is the Prime Minister aware, the Assad regime pass presented

:43:42.:43:47.

immediately denounced it. It is quite clearly Syrian government will

:43:48.:43:51.

not be happy about this. Can she take practical steps to ensure that

:43:52.:43:55.

the resolution is actually implemented? Particularly protecting

:43:56.:44:04.

those people witnesses to crime. Those people like the White helmets

:44:05.:44:09.

being so brave in East Aleppo, which now could be vulnerable to

:44:10.:44:16.

Hezbollah, the militias and the Assad regime. The honourable

:44:17.:44:20.

gentleman is right, he is right about how the resolution isn't

:44:21.:44:24.

lamented. French and UK diplomats worked hard to make sure this

:44:25.:44:27.

resolution would be accepted by the Security Council. We had to make

:44:28.:44:32.

sure it is put into practice. He refers to the evidence of crime, we

:44:33.:44:36.

have been taking action making sure people are equipped, and trained to

:44:37.:44:42.

gather evidence of crimes that have taken place, so they can be properly

:44:43.:44:49.

investigated. Earlier private Prime Minister said: when it comes to

:44:50.:44:55.

decisions on national interest, and immigration, we can make those

:44:56.:44:59.

decisions for ourselves. May I commend that statement, and when she

:45:00.:45:02.

finally presents her plan to Parliament, will she keep it brief,

:45:03.:45:07.

focus on outcomes and not means. We are leaving the EU, the internal

:45:08.:45:11.

market, we are going to regain control of our borders and laws, but

:45:12.:45:17.

nothing in that is against concluding a free-trade deal

:45:18.:45:22.

overwhelmingly in favour of our interests and our friends and

:45:23.:45:26.

allies? My honourable friend is right, we need to get the right

:45:27.:45:30.

possible deal. He is right to focus on the outcome of the deal we want,

:45:31.:45:33.

rather than particular ends on means to achieve that outcome. It is

:45:34.:45:38.

absolutely clear it is possible to get a deal which is a very good

:45:39.:45:42.

trade deal for the United Kingdom. Also in the interests of the

:45:43.:45:48.

European Union. With regards to the best interests of the United

:45:49.:45:52.

Kingdom, with the Prime Minister confirm remaining in the European

:45:53.:45:56.

arrest warrant, and Euro poll are in the best interest of the United

:45:57.:46:01.

Kingdom? The honourable gentleman knows I have stood at this dispatch

:46:02.:46:06.

box and argues we should remain in these particular aspects. In the

:46:07.:46:13.

whole area of cooperation on crime, it will be part of the negotiations.

:46:14.:46:20.

It is an issue, not just of what is in the UK's interests, the UK

:46:21.:46:24.

working with partners in the European union is in their

:46:25.:46:31.

interests, too. What are the chances of the proposed European defence

:46:32.:46:36.

fund adding new money to collective European defence and security? What

:46:37.:46:40.

is the Prime Minister'sattitude to the leaked a matter of the mechanism

:46:41.:46:48.

due next year? On the issue of the European defence fund, referred to

:46:49.:46:55.

in the Council conclusions, this is something which is yet to be fully

:46:56.:47:01.

fledged out, how it will operate in the future. One of the issues

:47:02.:47:06.

discussed by the European Council members is a concern to ensure

:47:07.:47:09.

better procurement of defence equipment across the European Union.

:47:10.:47:15.

It is in that context that these issues are being considered. Can I

:47:16.:47:22.

push the Prime Minister on the matter of security? Viewed from

:47:23.:47:28.

Moscow Europe must look so much more disunited and weak since June. The

:47:29.:47:33.

fact the matter, we have 100,000 men and women in our Armed Forces, you

:47:34.:47:40.

can get them in Wembley Stadium. What it tanks rolled across borders

:47:41.:47:44.

in this unstable period of European history, what would we do? I have to

:47:45.:47:49.

say to the honourable gentleman, first of all, the Secretary of State

:47:50.:47:55.

for Defence has told me the figure is too not 100,000. Let's look at

:47:56.:48:00.

the issue he has talked about. One of the things I have said in my

:48:01.:48:05.

statement, the importance of Nato is the bedrock of our security and that

:48:06.:48:10.

of our allies. That is important in ensuring our defence. What is this

:48:11.:48:15.

government doing in defence spending, spending two percent,

:48:16.:48:19.

committing over ?170 billion over a number of years for investment in

:48:20.:48:26.

defence equipment. Ensuring we have the defence we need, both the forces

:48:27.:48:32.

and equipment to keep us safe. Can my right honourable friend set out

:48:33.:48:38.

how our support for the Syrian people, through the aid budget, is

:48:39.:48:42.

helping alleviate some of the horrendous suffering happening over

:48:43.:48:48.

there? My honourable friend is right to raise this issue, as we focus on

:48:49.:48:53.

the specific question of Aleppo, it is easy to forget the significant

:48:54.:48:58.

contribution in the UK is making through its aid budget, to the

:48:59.:49:01.

humanitarian effort for the refugees from Syria. Much of that is going to

:49:02.:49:09.

refugees in countries around Syria, Lebanon, Turkey and Jordan. We are

:49:10.:49:14.

the second biggest bilateral donor in relation to humanitarian aid for

:49:15.:49:18.

refugees, have committed ?2.3 billion. Medical supplies, food,

:49:19.:49:24.

water, these are getting through, to people where they would not have

:49:25.:49:28.

them elsewhere. It means that children are being educated as a

:49:29.:49:33.

result of the money being spent by the United Kingdom. Absolutely right

:49:34.:49:38.

we should do that. Can I commend the Prime Minister for her solid and

:49:39.:49:44.

strong stance on Brexit. 27 EU members met without the Prime

:49:45.:49:48.

Minister in attendance. Is this beginning of the cloak and dagger

:49:49.:49:53.

approach? Ken's I/O sure we will not be kept in the dark, everything is

:49:54.:49:58.

open. The British view expressed that the ballot box is sacrosanct

:49:59.:50:03.

and a priority. 27 members of the European met for 25 minutes to

:50:04.:50:08.

discuss aspects of the process for the UK leaving the European Union.

:50:09.:50:11.

Absolutely right they meet together as 27. When we trigger article 50 we

:50:12.:50:17.

want to make sure the process is as smooth and orderly as possible. It

:50:18.:50:21.

is in our interests, the interests of the economy, the interest of

:50:22.:50:27.

other economies as well. I welcome the fact that they are meeting of a

:50:28.:50:31.

27, to make preparations, as we do when the 27, to make preparations,

:50:32.:50:37.

as we do when we trigger article 30. -- 50. It is absolutely right we

:50:38.:50:43.

maintain good relationships with the 27 member states of the European

:50:44.:50:48.

Union, what steps is the premise the making connection we talk to

:50:49.:50:51.

countries not in the European Union, to gain insight in their position,

:50:52.:50:56.

and make plans for the future? My honourable friend raises an

:50:57.:50:59.

important point, not just relationships with the EU, our

:51:00.:51:03.

relationship with individual countries member of the EU, and

:51:04.:51:13.

members of -- those who are not members. I held discussions with

:51:14.:51:17.

those countries, and the United Kingdom outside the EU will not be

:51:18.:51:21.

leaving Europe, we want to continue to have good relations with friends

:51:22.:51:25.

and allies in Europe, good bilateral relationships, enabling us to trade

:51:26.:51:32.

well with those nations, as well. One of the key aspects of security

:51:33.:51:34.

cooperation across Europe is the ability to impose sanctions on the

:51:35.:51:39.

EU sanctions regime. What discussions that the Prime Minister

:51:40.:51:45.

have on the UK's involvement in that after leaving the European Union? I

:51:46.:51:49.

can ensure him that the UK voice will be heard from you put forward

:51:50.:51:54.

our opinion on matters like sanctions on Russia, and maintained

:51:55.:52:00.

until the Minsk agreement is observed. One thing that both sides

:52:01.:52:16.

of the EU referendum campaign can agree on is that during the

:52:17.:52:20.

referendum campaign one of the big issues with the amount of money we

:52:21.:52:22.

give each year to the European Union. Will the Prime Minister make

:52:23.:52:28.

a pledge that when we leave the EU we will not be paying any money to

:52:29.:52:34.

the EU budget, and surely even contemplating that would be

:52:35.:52:37.

contemplating what people voted for in the EU referendum? Obviously

:52:38.:52:45.

while we remain members of the European Union we continue to have

:52:46.:52:48.

obligations as members of the European Union. When we leave the

:52:49.:52:54.

European Union people want to ensure that the British government the site

:52:55.:53:00.

at tax payers money is spent. The European Council stressed that those

:53:01.:53:03.

responsible for breaches of international law in Syria must be

:53:04.:53:09.

held accountable, and the EU is considering all available options.

:53:10.:53:15.

They disagree with that sentiment. Can the Prime Minister set out what

:53:16.:53:22.

that means in practice? The first thing, and it is a position that the

:53:23.:53:27.

UK Government holds, where people have breached international

:53:28.:53:30.

humanitarian law, that should be investigated and properly dealt

:53:31.:53:34.

with. People should be brought to justice in relation to that. In

:53:35.:53:38.

relation to the available options, there has been some consideration of

:53:39.:53:43.

further sanctions, and issue the UK has raised in the past. We continue

:53:44.:53:49.

to look at it. Does the Prime Minister agree with me, her first

:53:50.:53:54.

duty as Prime Minister is to defend the rights of British subjects? It

:53:55.:54:00.

would be a foolish negotiating strategy to unilaterally guarantee

:54:01.:54:04.

the rights of EU nationals residing here? Much as we would like to,

:54:05.:54:07.

until we have achieved represents the teeth for British nationals

:54:08.:54:10.

overseas. -- repertoires . It is right that the UK Prime

:54:11.:54:24.

Minister should have concern for UK citizens. Those living in other EU

:54:25.:54:31.

states don't want to be left high and dry. We will guarantee EU

:54:32.:54:39.

residents living hair, providing that UK citizens living overseas can

:54:40.:54:41.

have their rights guaranteed as well. We'll Brexit deliver what

:54:42.:54:49.

three ministers promised in the referendum, and for what the

:54:50.:54:54.

majority of the voters supported? Namely a 350 million pounds a week

:54:55.:55:02.

payment to the health service? Will they get the bill for 50 billion,

:55:03.:55:10.

for which nobody voted? Premier League the European Union, we will

:55:11.:55:14.

be delivering on what my colleagues, campaigning for leaving the European

:55:15.:55:18.

Union campaign for, and those who voted for. The United Kingdom no

:55:19.:55:24.

longer being a member of the European Union, taking control of

:55:25.:55:27.

how taxpayer money is spent, how laws are made, and immigration.

:55:28.:55:39.

Will my... In conversations with the European Parliament, will my right

:55:40.:55:43.

honourable friend make clear, whatever deal we strike the European

:55:44.:55:49.

Union, we will be offering free trade? And she ask them why anybody

:55:50.:55:54.

is considering a reversion to protectionism and tariffs,

:55:55.:56:00.

particularly in the fact that Article 35 in the European Union

:56:01.:56:05.

joins the European Union to contributing to free and fair trade?

:56:06.:56:14.

That is an important point, that this is about getting a good trade

:56:15.:56:20.

relationship with the EU which is in their interests as well as our

:56:21.:56:25.

interests. Lots of references made to the process in relation to trade,

:56:26.:56:30.

but actually what we need to focus on the outcome, the best possible

:56:31.:56:39.

deal in terms of trading the EU. Under the leadership of this Prime

:56:40.:56:43.

Minister Britain has opposed strengthening trade measures and

:56:44.:56:50.

Judy rules have crippled the UK steel industry. British workers and

:56:51.:56:57.

British industry will be more exposed than ever before. The trade

:56:58.:57:02.

defence arrangements that have been in place have significant impact on

:57:03.:57:07.

the question of the dumping of steel. Of course everyone recognises

:57:08.:57:12.

the importance of overcapacity and the effect of overcapacity in China.

:57:13.:57:23.

With taken measures with regards to climate change and energy costs for

:57:24.:57:27.

the steel industry, we have ensured other factors can be taken into

:57:28.:57:31.

account when looking at procurement of steel, so social economic factors

:57:32.:57:37.

are taken into account. Regarding the trade defence arrangements in

:57:38.:57:41.

Europe, we think that we should ensure that we look at impact on

:57:42.:57:46.

producers and also read to look at the impact on consumers. We call for

:57:47.:57:49.

a balance in dealing with these issues. As the Prime Minister

:57:50.:57:58.

reaches her first Christmas in her role I commend her for the sureness

:57:59.:58:02.

of touch she has demonstrated as Prime Minister. I commend her for

:58:03.:58:06.

setting up a fresh new government department for us to leave the EU

:58:07.:58:11.

and remind her that in Kettering, 61% of people voted to leave and

:58:12.:58:15.

they want her to get on with it as soon as possible. I thank my right

:58:16.:58:21.

honourable friend for his kind words and I assure him that the government

:58:22.:58:30.

is focused on delivering what overall the British people wanted,

:58:31.:58:38.

leaving the EU. Can I press the Prime Minister how will the

:58:39.:58:43.

government held President Assad to account for the decimation of

:58:44.:58:53.

Aleppo? This is a matter which we and others in the international

:58:54.:58:56.

community will be looking at. At the moment of course the situation is

:58:57.:59:00.

that President Assad is still there in Syria, this is something we have

:59:01.:59:04.

said from the beginning we want to see a political transition away from

:59:05.:59:07.

President Assad but we are clear we need to look carefully at all the

:59:08.:59:12.

actions that are being taken in relation to the conflict in Syria

:59:13.:59:17.

and ensure people are held to account for those actions and

:59:18.:59:20.

obviously those actions that break international humanitarian law. I

:59:21.:59:26.

congratulate and thank my right honourable friend for the robust

:59:27.:59:32.

stance she has taken in representing the UK at the recent EU Council

:59:33.:59:37.

meeting. Can the Prime Ministers say with any of the leaders of the 27th

:59:38.:59:43.

of whether they expressed a wish not to want to trade with the UK. I'm

:59:44.:59:50.

happy to tell my honourable friend that when I have met leaders

:59:51.:59:55.

bilaterally, they had been very keen to express their desire to continue

:59:56.:59:58.

to trade and have a good trading relationship with the UK. What has

:59:59.:00:03.

happened in Aleppo has been a tragedy and also an act of

:00:04.:00:08.

deliberate brutality by President Putin and his regime and the

:00:09.:00:11.

panellist is right to say that those responsible must be held to account.

:00:12.:00:16.

There is something that she could do immediately, which is she could sign

:00:17.:00:20.

up to the motion, to the amendment to the criminal finance bill tabled

:00:21.:00:24.

by the right honourable member for barking at honourable friend which

:00:25.:00:30.

would take the assets from those who have been involved in human rights

:00:31.:00:39.

abuses and war crimes of them. The honourable gentleman raised an

:00:40.:00:43.

important point, we already have legislative capacity in relation to

:00:44.:00:47.

such matters and that is why I think the amendment has been considered

:00:48.:00:51.

not to be necessary and not to take us forward. Assuming a humanitarian

:00:52.:01:06.

corridor to Aleppo supported by a clear UN mandate is a possibility,

:01:07.:01:14.

would Her Majesty the government be prepared to consider using our

:01:15.:01:19.

military forces perhaps in small teams to monitor such an arrangement

:01:20.:01:24.

as it is something in which we have had considerable expertise and

:01:25.:01:33.

success to date. The Prime Minister could introduce an addendum to her

:01:34.:01:41.

last answer. I'm afraid I was thinking in terms of the Lord that

:01:42.:01:49.

he frequently raises in relation to the matters relating to Russia. So I

:01:50.:01:56.

apologise for that. -- the law. My honourable friend has personal

:01:57.:01:59.

experience providing support in circumstances where we need to

:02:00.:02:02.

provide that humanitarian aid and support to people. This will be a

:02:03.:02:07.

matter that will be taken up of course by the United Nations, and

:02:08.:02:10.

the role the UK campaign that will be a matter for consideration under

:02:11.:02:18.

the auspices of the United Nations. Towards the end of her remark she

:02:19.:02:23.

talked in broad terms about the kind of mature cooperative relationship

:02:24.:02:27.

she wants for the UK outside the EU. Which of the European countries that

:02:28.:02:32.

are not in the EU does a deal she wants for Britain most closely

:02:33.:02:38.

resemble? I have said consistently that we are not looking to try to

:02:39.:02:45.

duplicate or replicate a model that is there for some other country

:02:46.:02:51.

within Europe. What we will be doing is negotiating the deal that is

:02:52.:02:53.

right for the UK and we will be ambitious in doing so. While

:02:54.:03:06.

strongly commending the pivotal role which the UK is playing in Lebanon,

:03:07.:03:10.

Jordan and other neighbouring states and coping with the miserable

:03:11.:03:16.

outflow from Syria, could I urge my honourable friend that a high

:03:17.:03:20.

priority in dealings with the incoming administration in

:03:21.:03:25.

Washington must be tackling the growing military strength of Russia

:03:26.:03:31.

and Iran in that region. It is very important that we look seriously at

:03:32.:03:35.

the actions of Russia, as I indicated earlier in response to

:03:36.:03:42.

another question, we must look at the actions of Russia across a range

:03:43.:03:46.

of activities they are not -- there are now involved in. One element of

:03:47.:03:51.

the conclusions of the European Council was that it now also

:03:52.:03:54.

identified Iran is backing the Assad regime. I think that is a very

:03:55.:03:57.

important step forward and we should continue to make the point that it

:03:58.:04:05.

is not just Russia but Iran as well. It is welcome that the UN Security

:04:06.:04:08.

Council has unanimously voted to approve UN personnel in eastern

:04:09.:04:13.

Aleppo to monitor the evacuations and access to humanitarian aid

:04:14.:04:18.

however I'm concerned that a requirement to what Nate with

:04:19.:04:21.

involved parties such as the Syrian regime, Russia and Iran, could see

:04:22.:04:26.

the monitor is denied access. What diplomatic role does the panellist

:04:27.:04:30.

to think that Europe could play in ensuring access is not restricted in

:04:31.:04:36.

this manner. It is for all of us in the international arena to ensure we

:04:37.:04:40.

provide maximum support to the UN in being able to do what has been set

:04:41.:04:43.

out in the Security Council resolution. It is significant that

:04:44.:04:49.

it has been unanimously accepted and not fitted by Russia, the European

:04:50.:04:56.

Union through the high representative has already been

:04:57.:04:58.

involved in the international arena. Of course as has my right honourable

:04:59.:05:04.

friend the Foreign Secretary. In urging all parties to ensure that

:05:05.:05:06.

this humanitarian aid can get through and that the people who wish

:05:07.:05:16.

to leave can be safely evacuated. Iran is the other major actor in

:05:17.:05:21.

Syria and what steps will the council be taking to have

:05:22.:05:25.

discussions with Iran so the atrocities committed in Aleppo are

:05:26.:05:28.

not nearly committed in other towns and cities in Syria. My

:05:29.:05:36.

understanding is that the European Union high representative has

:05:37.:05:38.

already had discussions with Iran particularly with an aspect of

:05:39.:05:43.

looking at the humanitarian aid which is necessary to get through. I

:05:44.:05:47.

have just indicated in response to a previous question that it is right

:05:48.:05:52.

that we have identified Iran as being a backer of the Assad regime

:05:53.:05:56.

and should continue to do so and continue to press them and Russia

:05:57.:06:01.

that we now have a Security Council resolution in relation to the

:06:02.:06:04.

evacuation and humanitarian aid for Aleppo but the is a lot more to be

:06:05.:06:09.

done if we are to reach a peaceful Syria in the future. Full stop. Can

:06:10.:06:21.

I ask the Prime Minister what pressure or assistance are the

:06:22.:06:28.

European leaders agreeing to to help refugees and help Jordan process

:06:29.:06:31.

hundreds of thousands of refugees trapped in the no man's land between

:06:32.:06:37.

Syria and Jordan. This is part of the work that we are doing, putting

:06:38.:06:45.

aid into countries like Jordan to help them in dealing with those

:06:46.:06:54.

refugees who are particularly, those already in Jordan. Some of the many

:06:55.:06:58.

we're making available will specifically be looking at those now

:06:59.:07:05.

massing on Jordanian border. I congratulate my right honourable

:07:06.:07:08.

friend for her thoughtful statement. Does she agree that Brexit means

:07:09.:07:14.

Brexit and that means we leave the EU and all its EU regulations and

:07:15.:07:16.

Russia agree that that is the certainty that the country is

:07:17.:07:26.

looking for. --. She agree. Brexit indeed means Brexit and as regards

:07:27.:07:29.

the EU regulations it is important that at the point at which we leave

:07:30.:07:33.

the EU, EU regulations are brought into domestic law in the UK. Then of

:07:34.:07:38.

course it will be up to this Parliament to decide which of those

:07:39.:07:40.

regulations it wishes to continue with and which it wishes to change.

:07:41.:07:47.

In regard to citizens who have come to live in the UK, does the Prime

:07:48.:07:52.

Minister agree that the principle of protecting those who make a positive

:07:53.:07:55.

contribution to our communities should be a core responsibility of

:07:56.:08:00.

government. I recognise the positive contribution made by EU citizens

:08:01.:08:07.

living here and I have said on many occasions that I expect to be able

:08:08.:08:12.

to wish to guarantee their status in the UK but we need reciprocity, we

:08:13.:08:17.

need to have care and concern for UK citizens living in the EU. Did

:08:18.:08:24.

promise to have any discussions with their counterparts on how quickly

:08:25.:08:31.

the EU can progress on multinational tax avoidance and country by country

:08:32.:08:39.

reporting? This was not a matter that was being discussed at the

:08:40.:08:42.

European Council but the question of tax avoidance is one that the UK has

:08:43.:08:48.

been a leader on. And this is an issue that I raised at the G20

:08:49.:08:55.

earlier this year. Did the discussions the Prime Minister had

:08:56.:08:57.

with her European counterparts touch on the exchange rate of sterling and

:08:58.:09:02.

how many euros did she get for her pound on her trip? We did not

:09:03.:09:15.

discuss that. The Prime Minister mentioned an extra ?20 million of

:09:16.:09:17.

practical support band perhaps she could talk a bit more about all the

:09:18.:09:21.

other things that we are funding in that region. I will not list

:09:22.:09:31.

everything that we are funding, as I have said we're a contribution that

:09:32.:09:37.

is now committed to 2.3 billion to helping Syrian refugees and that is

:09:38.:09:42.

about medical supplies, water, the opportunity for young people to be

:09:43.:09:47.

educated. 10 million of the 20 million I indicated earlier will be

:09:48.:09:51.

for those now massing on the Jordanian border. So very

:09:52.:09:55.

specifically looking at those that have, that are vulnerable as a

:09:56.:09:58.

result of the most recent actions that have been taken. It is right

:09:59.:10:02.

that we putting supporting and I think this House should be proud of

:10:03.:10:06.

the effort that this country is undertaken to support Syrian

:10:07.:10:14.

refugees. A major poll last week in Wales noted the overwhelming Brexit

:10:15.:10:16.

priority of the people of my country was continued single market

:10:17.:10:20.

membership of the controls on immigration. If she intends to

:10:21.:10:24.

abandon the single market will she support membership status for Wales

:10:25.:10:29.

to ensure the Welsh economy is not shackled to a sinking UK ship. It is

:10:30.:10:36.

the UK that will leave the EU and UK that will be negotiating the deal

:10:37.:10:39.

that we have for leaving the EU but we will be working with the devolved

:10:40.:10:43.

administrations and taking into account the particular priorities

:10:44.:10:47.

that they have. But I repeat what I have said earlier, the honourable

:10:48.:10:51.

gentleman makes a reference to what is essentially a means or process in

:10:52.:10:57.

relation to trading. What we want to focus on the outcome we want, which

:10:58.:11:01.

is the best possible trading deal for trading with and operating

:11:02.:11:08.

within single European market. I congratulate the Prime Minister on

:11:09.:11:11.

her determination to raise the issue of reciprocal rights despite the

:11:12.:11:15.

fact it was not formally on the agenda. This is an issue of serious

:11:16.:11:19.

concern for EU citizens living here and our citizens living in Europe. I

:11:20.:11:23.

also congratulate for raising this with individual member states as

:11:24.:11:27.

well. I urge her to continue with these talks and ensure we put people

:11:28.:11:29.

first before process. Negotiations are of immediate

:11:30.:11:54.

concern to many of my constituents, that of this. Prime Minister confirm

:11:55.:12:04.

whether she will be present for the multilateral talks. Will the UK

:12:05.:12:08.

guarantee the independence of Cyprus? What I would say to my

:12:09.:12:13.

honourable friend, we recognise the importance of the talks taking

:12:14.:12:18.

place. The UK's position is simple, as a guarantor we will do what is

:12:19.:12:23.

necessary to play our part. It is important that that is primarily led

:12:24.:12:27.

by the two leaders pushing these discussions in Cyprus, under the

:12:28.:12:32.

auspices of the United Nations. We stand ready to attend the talks of

:12:33.:12:34.

the 12 January. The European Union has

:12:35.:12:43.

also indicated their readiness to be present. We will be present if that

:12:44.:12:49.

is going to aid coming to a settlement. We should focus on

:12:50.:12:55.

whether we will get the result. It should be with the aim is a

:12:56.:13:04.

settlement and reunification. It is accepted that business wishes to see

:13:05.:13:08.

the maximum possible certainty to make investment decisions. Does my

:13:09.:13:13.

right honourable friend agreed that that certainty is not obtained by

:13:14.:13:20.

equivocation of tricking article 50, triggering it promptly and being

:13:21.:13:24.

flexible and business focused in the terms of our negotiation and

:13:25.:13:30.

implementation of the final deal? My honourable friend makes an important

:13:31.:13:34.

point, precisely why I indicated in October we would trigger Article 50

:13:35.:13:41.

by the end of March, giving people certainty as to the timetable. He is

:13:42.:13:45.

absolutely right, we need a maximum Flex ability thereafter, making sure

:13:46.:13:49.

we can meet business needs and the needs of the UK generally. The Prime

:13:50.:13:56.

Minister'sapproach is absolutely right, especially for constituents

:13:57.:14:01.

whose jobs rely on trade, investment, students and residents

:14:02.:14:05.

from the European Union, he wanted CS focus on the key ingredients on

:14:06.:14:10.

success. Will her pragmatic focus on outcomes be Maugham likely to unify

:14:11.:14:18.

the country, then some political parties defining Brexit is a boiled

:14:19.:14:22.

egg, either soft or hard? I agree with my honourable friend. The

:14:23.:14:26.

British people want us to get on with it, do the deal, and get a good

:14:27.:14:30.

deal for the United Kingdom. That is exactly what we want to do. Thank

:14:31.:14:36.

you Mr Speaker, I would not expect the premise that to comment on

:14:37.:14:42.

today's events. Was there a discussion on the stability of

:14:43.:14:45.

Turkey, as a key ally and applicant country? There was some discussion,

:14:46.:14:52.

notably in the context of migration with Turkey. And the relationship.

:14:53.:14:56.

As I indicated in response to a question earlier, that relationship

:14:57.:15:01.

is important. De EU and Turkey deal has led to the significant reduction

:15:02.:15:06.

in numbers of people crossing into Greece. We need to make sure the

:15:07.:15:10.

deal is being properly undertaken, giving extra support to Greece. And

:15:11.:15:18.

for the other aspects of the deal, Visa liberalisation, that is a

:15:19.:15:26.

matter for the Schengen states the -- to consider. We are all aware of

:15:27.:15:33.

their relationship with Turkey. I welcome the premise the's statement,

:15:34.:15:37.

condemning the actions of the Assad regime, Russia and Iran. Apart from

:15:38.:15:44.

condemning, was there a strategy looking to counter Iranian

:15:45.:15:48.

aggression in Syria, and the destabilising activity in the wider

:15:49.:15:54.

region? First of all, it was very important that the conclusions that

:15:55.:15:57.

came out of the council identified Iran as well as Russia as being part

:15:58.:16:05.

of the backers of the Syrian regime. It was in the context of condemning

:16:06.:16:10.

what took place in Aleppo that that was specifically raised. As regards

:16:11.:16:15.

Iran more generally, and what is happening in Syria, we can continue

:16:16.:16:22.

as a European Union and United Kingdom to put pressure on those

:16:23.:16:25.

backing President Assad, to make sure we can do everything that

:16:26.:16:31.

people in the European Union Watt, moving to a peaceful and stable

:16:32.:16:35.

Syria with political transition and a proper political process. It means

:16:36.:16:39.

continued pressure on Russia and Iran. May I also congratulate the

:16:40.:16:44.

Prime Minister on her calm and measured approach since taking over.

:16:45.:16:57.

On EU and UK relations. As we understand the UK and US position on

:16:58.:17:03.

the Trump and Clinton campaigns, will we be doing the same in the EU

:17:04.:17:10.

to help how every negotiation process? I say to my honourable

:17:11.:17:15.

friend, of course we are in discussions with a number of people

:17:16.:17:18.

to ensure we understand the approach being taken in other member states

:17:19.:17:26.

by various parties. It is not just about political parties, also about

:17:27.:17:30.

understanding business and other interests in the member states we

:17:31.:17:37.

are negotiating with, so we can be better able to come to a deal that

:17:38.:17:42.

is not only good for the United Kingdom, but as I said, is the deal

:17:43.:17:47.

we want. A deal that is good for the UK will be good for the EU as well.

:17:48.:17:52.

Does my right honourable friend agree that the government's

:17:53.:17:57.

priorities in Syria must extend beyond the vital humanitarian aid,

:17:58.:18:02.

and a post-conflict settlement, and a reconstruction plan

:18:03.:18:07.

that will help the people of Syria? I have to say to my honourable

:18:08.:18:15.

friend, bringing peace and stability to

:18:16.:18:45.

Syria. I can my right honourable friend confirm that when we leave

:18:46.:19:07.

the European Court of just over? This is an issue my honourable

:19:08.:19:10.

friend has campaigned on considerable time. Part of the vote

:19:11.:19:18.

that people took was Parliament in the United Kingdom actually

:19:19.:19:20.

determining laws in the United Kingdom. That means not being under

:19:21.:19:24.

the jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. A diplomat friend

:19:25.:19:34.

of mine from Sweden told me last week it will not just be the budget

:19:35.:19:39.

they will miss from Brexit, what they will miss is the English and

:19:40.:19:44.

British nationals working for the European Union, who he says are

:19:45.:19:48.

organised, systematic and imaginative. Quite a contrast to

:19:49.:19:54.

many of the others who work for the secretariat. With my right

:19:55.:19:59.

honourable friend join me in wishing them well for the future, and I

:20:00.:20:06.

guess, happy Christmas? I'm happy there are many excellent British

:20:07.:20:08.

officials working inside the European Union. Including our

:20:09.:20:15.

commissioner, Sir Julian King, with his important portfolio on security

:20:16.:20:20.

matters. I wish them all well for the future, I wish them and the

:20:21.:20:27.

whole House Merry Christmas. Would we be prepared to spend more than

:20:28.:20:32.

two percent on the fence, for example, on carrier battle and

:20:33.:20:35.

support, to underpin security in Europe and elsewhere, as part of the

:20:36.:20:40.

constructive on giving relationship between the EU and the UK? I have to

:20:41.:20:47.

say to my honourable friend, we have that commitment to spending two

:20:48.:20:50.

percent of GDP on defence, an important commitment we have given.

:20:51.:20:55.

I understand support will be there for the carriers. I think it is

:20:56.:21:01.

right we encourage others within the European Union and Nato to increase

:21:02.:21:11.

their spending to the same level. Shortly before the council met, the

:21:12.:21:19.

15th round of the EU and US talks ended in stalemate, predictably

:21:20.:21:23.

enough. At the same time the prospects of a bilateral UK and US

:21:24.:21:27.

deal appeared to be on the rise. It does not come from I-70 between the

:21:28.:21:37.

two nations, does not see the need for a new supranational policy

:21:38.:21:37.

organise disputes, because we organise disputes, because we

:21:38.:21:43.

respect each other and we have a relationship with the incoming

:21:44.:21:47.

administration. As continuing members of the EU, and as long as we

:21:48.:21:54.

are there, we will continue to press for the advantage of the

:21:55.:21:58.

transatlantic partnership deal. I'm looking at the possibilities of a

:21:59.:22:01.

trade deal we will be able to have with them in due course. In Libya,

:22:02.:22:09.

there seems to be a lack of stability in Tripoli, but there is

:22:10.:22:13.

stability in Benghazi. I would like to ask my honourable friend, whether

:22:14.:22:21.

the European Council is doing anything to stabilise the situation

:22:22.:22:24.

so there is no migration of people coming from Libya. There was some

:22:25.:22:28.

discussion of Libya, because of the recognition it plays an important

:22:29.:22:32.

role in relation to the migration of people from the rest of Africa, up

:22:33.:22:35.

into the Mediterranean, individually. Royal Naval vessels

:22:36.:22:40.

have been in the Mediterranean saving people's lives, and continue

:22:41.:22:47.

to be there. As I indicated in my statement, training Bolivian Coast

:22:48.:22:51.

Guard, an important part of the process of preventing migration from

:22:52.:22:54.

taking place. It is important we have that government in Libya, and

:22:55.:22:59.

are able to interact with the government. We would encourage and

:23:00.:23:06.

wish to see stability across Libya so we can further ensure we are

:23:07.:23:08.

dealing with the issue of migration. With permission Mr Speaker, I would

:23:09.:23:31.

like to make a statement about serious disturbance at HMP

:23:32.:23:35.

Birmingham. I want to pay tribute to the bravery and dedication of the

:23:36.:23:39.

prison officers he resolved this difficult situation. I want to give

:23:40.:23:44.

thanks to West Midlands Police who supported the prison service through

:23:45.:23:47.

the day, and the ambulance and Fire Service you provided assistance.

:23:48.:23:52.

This was a serious disturbance. I have ordered a full investigation

:23:53.:23:58.

and appointed Sarah pain, adviser to the independent Chief Inspector,

:23:59.:24:03.

former director of the Welsh prison service to leave the work. I don't

:24:04.:24:08.

want to prejudge the outcome of the investigation. As we currently

:24:09.:24:14.

understand it, at 9:15am on Friday, at HMP Birmingham, six prisoners

:24:15.:24:21.

climbed onto netting. When staff intervened, one of them had their

:24:22.:24:25.

keys snatched. At that point staff withdrew for their own safety. Two

:24:26.:24:37.

Tornado teams were deployed by G4S. Gold command was open. Seven

:24:38.:24:42.

additional tornado teams were dispatched to the prison. Prisoners

:24:43.:24:49.

gained access to two more wings. Gold command make decisions further

:24:50.:24:56.

reinforcements were needed, and an additional four tornado teams were

:24:57.:25:01.

dispatched to the prison. At 2:45pm the police and prison service

:25:02.:25:04.

secured all four wings, which remain secure through the day. Shortly

:25:05.:25:10.

after three p.m., there were reports of an injured prisoner, paramedics

:25:11.:25:12.

and staff tried to intervene, but were prevented from doing so by

:25:13.:25:18.

prisoners. During the afternoon every bus plan was prepared to take

:25:19.:25:22.

back control of the wings. Minimising risk to staff and

:25:23.:25:26.

prisoners. It is important that in this type of situation, the right

:25:27.:25:30.

resources are in place before acting. Ten tornado teams of highly

:25:31.:25:38.

trained officers swept through the wings. Shortly after 10pm the teams

:25:39.:25:44.

had secured all four wings. The prisoner, who had been previously

:25:45.:25:49.

reported injured was treated by paramedics and taken to hospital,

:25:50.:25:53.

along with two other prisoners. Throughout the day the Prisons

:25:54.:25:57.

Minister and I shared cross government calls to make necessary

:25:58.:26:00.

preparations, and to ensure the prison service had all the support

:26:01.:26:05.

it needed. I want to thank the tornado teams, prison officers and

:26:06.:26:09.

emergency services for their emergency work as I said before,

:26:10.:26:14.

levels of violence are too high in our prisons. We also have very

:26:15.:26:19.

concerning levels of self harm and deaths in custody. We are reforming

:26:20.:26:25.

our prisons to be safe and purposeful praises, taking swift

:26:26.:26:28.

action to deal with acts, It will take time and effort to turn

:26:29.:26:50.

the situation around. We are continually working to reduce risk

:26:51.:26:55.

and ensure stability across the prison estate. The Prison Service is

:26:56.:27:00.

leading Gold command to collect intelligence, to deploy resources

:27:01.:27:04.

and in particular manage the movement of prisoners. Including

:27:05.:27:07.

managing incidents at Hull prison yesterday morning which were quickly

:27:08.:27:12.

dealt with by staff. To date we have moved 380 prisoners out of

:27:13.:27:17.

Birmingham and we continue to assess the level of damage on the wings.

:27:18.:27:22.

The prisons minister chairs daily meetings with the chief executive

:27:23.:27:25.

and senior members of the Prison Service to monitor prisons for risk

:27:26.:27:31.

factors that might indicate potential violence and unrest. Where

:27:32.:27:34.

necessary we are providing governors with immediate and targeted support

:27:35.:27:39.

ranging from extra staff through to the transfer of difficult prisoners

:27:40.:27:45.

and speeding up repairs or replacements to facilities. As we

:27:46.:27:49.

manage the difficult situation we have currently, we are implementing

:27:50.:27:54.

a reform programme which will reduce violence and cut the ?15 billion

:27:55.:27:59.

cost of reoffending as laid out in the white paper. In September we

:28:00.:28:03.

rolled out tests for dangerous psychoactive drugs in prison and we

:28:04.:28:06.

are the first country to do this. We're rolling out new technology to

:28:07.:28:12.

prevent mobile phone use and we are recruiting for a new ?3 million

:28:13.:28:16.

national intelligence unit to crack down on gang crime. We are

:28:17.:28:23.

increasing staffing levels by 2500 officers and we are taking steps to

:28:24.:28:29.

train and retain our valued staff. This includes a new apprenticeship

:28:30.:28:33.

programme, graduate entry scheme, fast-track promotions and retention

:28:34.:28:38.

payments and we're putting an extra ?100 million into this. We're

:28:39.:28:43.

modernising our estate with a ?1.3 billion investment programme and we

:28:44.:28:47.

are empowering governors to manager -- to manage locally to get people

:28:48.:28:51.

off drugs, get them the skills that they need and get them into work.

:28:52.:28:54.

Importantly for the first time ever in the prison chords built next year

:28:55.:29:00.

we will make clear that the purpose of prison is not just about housing

:29:01.:29:05.

prisoners but also reforming them. Together these reforms are the right

:29:06.:29:10.

way to address our issues in prisons so they become purposeful places

:29:11.:29:15.

where offenders get off drugs and get the education and skills they

:29:16.:29:19.

need to find work and turn their backs on crime for good. The issues

:29:20.:29:25.

in our prisons are long-standing, and they're not going to be

:29:26.:29:29.

completely solved in weeks or months. We're working to ensure that

:29:30.:29:34.

the prisons are stable while the deliver our reforms. Of course this

:29:35.:29:39.

is a major task and I'm committed to this and so is the Prison Service

:29:40.:29:43.

and know that governors and prison officers are as well. The next few

:29:44.:29:48.

months will be difficult. But I'm confident that we can turn this

:29:49.:29:52.

situation around, we can turn our prisons into places of safety and

:29:53.:29:58.

perform and this is my absolute priority as Secretary of State. I

:29:59.:30:07.

commend this statement to the House. Thank you to the Secretary of State

:30:08.:30:11.

for giving me advance sight of her statement. I want to pay tribute to

:30:12.:30:17.

the Tornado teams, the prison officers and the emergency services.

:30:18.:30:23.

But the Secretary of State has a prison crisis on her hands. It would

:30:24.:30:27.

be helpful if she admitted this to the House and the country. The riots

:30:28.:30:33.

at the privately run Birmingham prison on Friday has been described

:30:34.:30:39.

as probably the most serious riot in a B category prison since

:30:40.:30:43.

Strangeways back in 1990. But there's riot is not a crisis, it is

:30:44.:30:50.

a symptom of the crisis. In recent months there have been disturbances

:30:51.:30:55.

at Lincoln, Lewis, Bedford, and incidents at Hull prison and

:30:56.:30:59.

elsewhere. Folsom prison staff are at an all-time high and prison

:31:00.:31:03.

officers are leading the service in such numbers that 8000 will be

:31:04.:31:11.

needed to be recruited to meet the 2500 target. So the Secretary of

:31:12.:31:15.

State has questions to answer and so does the government as a whole. When

:31:16.:31:21.

the Independent monitoring board said back in October that an urgent

:31:22.:31:24.

solution was needed to the prevalence of synthetic drugs in

:31:25.:31:30.

Birmingham prison, what action did the Secretary of State take question

:31:31.:31:36.

mark I want to ask how much has the disorder on Friday cost and who is

:31:37.:31:42.

footing the bill for the damage. Will tend to be reimbursing the

:31:43.:31:46.

public purse for the use of public sector staff to sort out this

:31:47.:31:50.

disorder and does the Secretary of State think it is acceptable that

:31:51.:31:54.

private sector prisons do not have to reveal staffing levels in the way

:31:55.:31:57.

that prisons in the public sector do. If like me she does not believe

:31:58.:32:05.

it is acceptable, is she going to do anything about it? And does the

:32:06.:32:09.

Secretary of State regret her vitriolic attack on prison officers

:32:10.:32:16.

this Chamber on the 15th of November, is it even shocked many of

:32:17.:32:20.

her colleagues. Is it not about time that the secular state started to

:32:21.:32:23.

listen to prison officers on the front line. Of all prisons in 2015,

:32:24.:32:31.

Birmingham had the highest number of assaults on staff. There were 164

:32:32.:32:36.

assaults on staff in 2015 alone. The prison officers Association, PCS

:32:37.:32:43.

trade union and Prison Governors Association had warned of this

:32:44.:32:48.

crisis since 2010. It is about time that fundamental questions were

:32:49.:32:52.

asked about the way the prison systems are working or not working.

:32:53.:32:56.

The secular state is to consider whether or not it is right that

:32:57.:33:03.

private companies like G4S at Birmingham should be making profit

:33:04.:33:08.

from prisons and from societies ills. The Secretary of State needs

:33:09.:33:13.

to change her mind to the fight that where rehabilitation fails and where

:33:14.:33:18.

prison education is cut, reoffending rises. This is a failure to protect

:33:19.:33:25.

society. Privatisation of the probation service, Savage cuts to

:33:26.:33:29.

prison staff, overcrowding in prisons, cuts to through the gate

:33:30.:33:34.

services, or stop prisons are working and put the public at

:33:35.:33:40.

increased risk. The Secretary of State should admit that in her

:33:41.:33:45.

overcrowded, understaffed prisons, shorter sentence prisoners are

:33:46.:33:48.

leaving prison with drug addiction is they did not have won it went in

:33:49.:33:52.

and they are leaving more likely to commit more serious crimes than

:33:53.:33:55.

those crimes they were put away for in the first place. This is not

:33:56.:34:01.

protecting society but endangering society. Such is the crisis in our

:34:02.:34:05.

prisons that the secretary of state needs to develop an open mind on the

:34:06.:34:17.

future of anything that we can learn from how prisons work in other

:34:18.:34:21.

countries, perhaps we could learn from some of the experiences in

:34:22.:34:24.

Norway and elsewhere. One thing is for sure, the USA model of huge

:34:25.:34:26.

privately run several prisons is not the way to go. To conclude, can the

:34:27.:34:31.

Secretary of State tell us, 380 prisoners are being transferred from

:34:32.:34:36.

HMP Birmingham, where have they been transferred to, is G4S back running

:34:37.:34:42.

things in Birmingham now, will the government review the role of G4S

:34:43.:34:47.

and private companies in running a prisons and though she finally

:34:48.:34:50.

realise that it was wrong and dangerous to cut 6000 front-line

:34:51.:34:56.

prison staff in the first place? The crisis in our prisons is a symptom

:34:57.:35:01.

of a failing government that has lost control. Since I was appointed

:35:02.:35:11.

as Secretary of State for Justice in July I have been absolutely clear

:35:12.:35:16.

that we need to improve safety in prisons and that the levels of

:35:17.:35:20.

violence we currently have is unacceptable. We are investing a

:35:21.:35:28.

further ?500 million over the next three years, which was announced in

:35:29.:35:32.

the Autumn Statement, as part of our present safety and reform plan. He

:35:33.:35:36.

talks about psychoactive drugs and what we have done about that, what

:35:37.:35:41.

we have done is to put in tests to be able to detect those drugs and we

:35:42.:35:45.

have trained up people and officers to be able to detect those drugs. We

:35:46.:35:51.

have role that out across the prison estate. We are also running out new

:35:52.:35:55.

measures to deal with mobile phones and we are investing in a ?3 million

:35:56.:35:59.

intelligence unit. The most important thing is staff and I have

:36:00.:36:03.

huge respect for prison officers and the work that they do. That is why

:36:04.:36:10.

we are strengthening the front line by 2500 officers, that will enable

:36:11.:36:13.

us to ensure that we have one officer for every six prisoners,

:36:14.:36:20.

enabling us to make prisons safer and also turning lives around. We're

:36:21.:36:25.

getting a new apprenticeship scheme, we are creating a fast-track so we

:36:26.:36:29.

can train up existing offices and get them promotion within the

:36:30.:36:35.

service. This is a long-term programme but we have. We are taking

:36:36.:36:39.

immediate action but everyone in this House needs to recognise that

:36:40.:36:44.

it will take time to bring those people online and get those people

:36:45.:36:48.

trained up. In the meantime we are ensuring there is a full

:36:49.:36:54.

investigation at HMP Birmingham, a full police investigation, and the

:36:55.:36:56.

perpetrators of this incident will feel the full force of the law.

:36:57.:37:02.

Because the reality is that their actions put both staff and prisoners

:37:03.:37:06.

at risk. He asked about G4S, they will be covering the cost of what

:37:07.:37:12.

has happened at HMP Birmingham. Including the resources that have

:37:13.:37:15.

been employed by the public sector. But we need to be honest, this is an

:37:16.:37:20.

issue across the prison estate. We have the issues that private sector

:37:21.:37:24.

prisons and public sector prisons. That is why our staff investments

:37:25.:37:28.

are also going to be across the board. That is why reform measures

:37:29.:37:35.

and increased transparency are going to apply to both public sector and

:37:36.:37:42.

private sector prisons. He talked about the prison population and the

:37:43.:37:47.

reality is it rose by 23,000 under the Labour government. Between 1997

:37:48.:37:53.

and 2010. It has been stable under this government since 2010. He

:37:54.:38:00.

talked about short sentence prisoners, we have seen the number

:38:01.:38:04.

of short sentence prisoners going down by 1500 since 2010. We have

:38:05.:38:12.

seen increases in areas like sex offenders who rightly been put away

:38:13.:38:19.

for those heinous crimes. We are reforming our prisons. This is going

:38:20.:38:23.

to take time. We have got the right measures in place to turn the tide

:38:24.:38:28.

and we need to turn our prisons into places of safety and perform. We

:38:29.:38:33.

have taken immediate action to reduce risk across the estate but

:38:34.:38:36.

everyone in this House has got to recognise that it will take time to

:38:37.:38:40.

make sure that our prisons become the places we want them to be. I

:38:41.:38:49.

welcome the Secretary of State as a bank statement and her frankness

:38:50.:38:51.

about the seriousness of the situation. I join her in paying

:38:52.:38:55.

tribute to the professionalism of prison staff especially Tornado

:38:56.:39:01.

teams and others which operated very efficiently. This is a problem which

:39:02.:39:05.

is built up over many years and for which all parties have to accept a

:39:06.:39:09.

measure of responsibility. Wilshere ensured that the report not only

:39:10.:39:15.

looks at the immediate issues that arise from what happened in

:39:16.:39:19.

Birmingham prison but also lends the broader lessons about how best to

:39:20.:39:23.

deal with dispersal of disruptive prisoners, how to deal with pressure

:39:24.:39:27.

is on the estate under those circumstances, how to deal with the

:39:28.:39:30.

problem of contractual difficulties in repairs to the estate, how to

:39:31.:39:36.

deal sensibly with the problem of retention of experienced officers. I

:39:37.:39:40.

just received an e-mail from a prison officer indicating that after

:39:41.:39:45.

years of service he is leaving because of the failure of senior

:39:46.:39:48.

management to listen consistently to the concerns of officers on line. We

:39:49.:39:55.

need to listen so we can turn the tide around. Order. He is Chair of

:39:56.:40:04.

the lustrous select committee governing these matters. -- but I

:40:05.:40:15.

advise other members that they may seek to imitate his erudition and

:40:16.:40:20.

not rival his leg. I thank my honourable friend for his comments.

:40:21.:40:26.

He is right that those issues will be looked at in the investigation

:40:27.:40:31.

taking place. In terms of staff retention, we are already doing work

:40:32.:40:35.

in terms of retention bonuses, giving governors additional powers.

:40:36.:40:40.

I can assure him that I have asked for further investigation into

:40:41.:40:44.

precisely how we're to improve the tension. We have been meeting with

:40:45.:40:48.

prison officers around the country and listening to their concerns in

:40:49.:40:52.

areas like career progression and training and we will be taking

:40:53.:40:58.

action on that as well. For those of us who have been following the

:40:59.:41:03.

crisis in our prisons, nothing that happened in Winston Green in my

:41:04.:41:07.

constituency on Friday came as a shock. The independent monitoring

:41:08.:41:12.

report on HMP Birmingham found staff resource constraints gave cause for

:41:13.:41:16.

concern and there was a lack of capacity to run the full prison

:41:17.:41:20.

regime. What action was taken when the report was published and will

:41:21.:41:24.

this be part of the investigation she is now promising and will she

:41:25.:41:28.

tell us if there are other things she knows about that she has yet

:41:29.:41:37.

failed to act upon. I would be happy to have a discussion about HMP

:41:38.:41:40.

Bramham specifically. These are issues that we have across the

:41:41.:41:47.

prison estate. Staff retention, psychoactive substances, the prisons

:41:48.:41:49.

minister has a daily meeting looking at these and making sure we are

:41:50.:41:54.

providing every governor regardless of whether public or private sector,

:41:55.:41:56.

with the support that they need. tooth and mobile telephones are used

:41:57.:42:06.

in prison for the furtherance of crime and violence.

:42:07.:43:01.

we didn't read the report, the Prisons Minister constant contact

:43:02.:43:25.

over these issues. Some reports suggested up to 75% of the have one

:43:26.:43:33.

or more mental health problem. Would you agree with me that we are

:43:34.:43:34.

unlikely to reform is until we reform the mental

:43:35.:43:52.

health provision. I agree with my honourable friend, that is why we're

:43:53.:43:58.

giving governors power mental health along with the NHS to make sure we

:43:59.:44:00.

have the right services in our prisons. Does this mean, furthering

:44:01.:44:06.

the question from my right honourable friend, that you read the

:44:07.:44:10.

report and take absolutely no action at all? We talk to governors,

:44:11.:44:20.

including the governor at HMP Birmingham. These are issues that

:44:21.:44:26.

many prisons are facing. That is why we have taken action on psychoactive

:44:27.:44:31.

substances, taking action on mobile phones, recruiting staff, also at

:44:32.:44:41.

HMP Birmingham. No matter whether the prisons are state run or

:44:42.:44:45.

privatised. For the record I believe they should be state run. Can I ask

:44:46.:44:51.

my right honourable friend, whether they will be any new laws to act as

:44:52.:44:57.

a deterrent for prisoners. If they assault a prison officer, there is

:44:58.:45:00.

an automatic extension to their sentence. Can she informed the House

:45:01.:45:06.

whether any move has been made? I will look at the issue that my

:45:07.:45:14.

honourable friend races. Can I thank the Justice Secretary for the time

:45:15.:45:17.

she afforded me earlier to discuss the incidents at HMP Hull at the

:45:18.:45:24.

weekend. She won over Rob Nicholson of the prison officers Association

:45:25.:45:31.

describing the situation as a powder keg waiting to go off. The prison

:45:32.:45:39.

was put on lockdown, said to be on the brink of riot. Prison officers

:45:40.:45:46.

tell me they are afraid to go to work. What can she do to assure the

:45:47.:45:50.

public and those prison officers that they are safe to go to work? I

:45:51.:45:56.

thank the honourable gentleman for his question. I discuss the specific

:45:57.:46:00.

issue of Hull with the head of the prison service. There were two

:46:01.:46:06.

incidents in Hull, they were dealt with. The issue has been dealt with

:46:07.:46:14.

across-the-board. The government commitment to closing the Victorian

:46:15.:46:21.

prisons which are no longer fit for purpose, and investing in

:46:22.:46:23.

unprecedented amount of money on building new prisons. When will the

:46:24.:46:28.

Secretary of State update us as to the prisons being closed and the new

:46:29.:46:34.

prisons being opened? I thank my friend macro for the question, we

:46:35.:46:38.

have a ?1.3 billion building programme. The first prison will be

:46:39.:46:45.

HMP Bellerin, which will open in February. Bringing an additional

:46:46.:46:50.

2100 places, reducing the crowding across the estate. I understand

:46:51.:46:56.

listening to my honourable friend's comments in Hull the prisoners

:46:57.:47:01.

involved in that were part of the prisoners who had been disbursed

:47:02.:47:05.

from Birmingham. I wonder whether the Secretary of State can say

:47:06.:47:09.

something about the dispersal programme and how that is working? I

:47:10.:47:14.

thank the honourable lady for her question. Of course given the

:47:15.:47:17.

condition of the wings at HMP Birmingham, the prison service

:47:18.:47:22.

needed to disperse those individuals across the prison estate. That is

:47:23.:47:28.

being carefully managed by the prison service, experienced in

:47:29.:47:32.

dealing with those issues. There were incidents, dealt with at HMP

:47:33.:47:40.

Hull, we are dealing with difficult individuals, and that is being

:47:41.:47:44.

closely looked at. My right honourable friend mentioned the

:47:45.:47:47.

discussions she was having with mobile phone providers. Is she doing

:47:48.:47:51.

the same thing with drone manufacturers? My honourable friend

:47:52.:47:58.

is correct, we are working with drone manufacturers to create no-fly

:47:59.:48:03.

zones over prisons, and to deal with the scourge enabling contraband to

:48:04.:48:10.

enter prisons. I can remember a time when a minister coming before this

:48:11.:48:13.

House before such a serious incident may have had two shows a degree of

:48:14.:48:25.

contrition. The reason that G4S have made a profit at HMP Birmingham is

:48:26.:48:29.

because they have reduced the number of experienced an expensive staff

:48:30.:48:33.

and replace them with cheaper and less experienced officers? I have

:48:34.:48:37.

been very clear, we need to have experienced staff. 80% of staff

:48:38.:48:43.

working for the prison service have been with us five or more years. I

:48:44.:48:48.

am very keen to make sure we retain those staff, offering them promotion

:48:49.:48:54.

opportunities. The levels of staffing are not set by G4S, they

:48:55.:48:59.

are set by our overall prison policy. That is what I am changing

:49:00.:49:04.

to make sure we have sufficient staff levels, investing in extra

:49:05.:49:07.

?100 million a year in starting to make sure we have the right staffing

:49:08.:49:12.

levels in both private and public sector prisons. We have a ready

:49:13.:49:18.

heard about the dramatic rise in psychometric drug use. Phone use,

:49:19.:49:27.

and the use of drones. I am told by my local prison officers, this is

:49:28.:49:30.

because the level of prison officers has got dangerously low. Can my

:49:31.:49:36.

honourable friend tell the House what measures thereafter interim

:49:37.:49:39.

staffing levels until we can get them to higher levels? My honourable

:49:40.:49:44.

friend is absolutely right, we do not have a sufficient staff in our

:49:45.:49:49.

prisons. Which is why the additional investment is being put in by the

:49:50.:49:54.

government. We started with ten of our most challenging prisons, where

:49:55.:49:57.

we needed to recruit an extra 400 staff. We have put our job offers to

:49:58.:50:04.

280 staff, which shows we can recruit. In 75% of prisons we don't

:50:05.:50:08.

have a problem recruiting. In the areas we do, we are offering extra

:50:09.:50:13.

retention payments to achieve those recruitment plans. Our prisons have

:50:14.:50:22.

7000 fewer officers since 2010, a cut of 8%. Two thirds are

:50:23.:50:29.

overcrowded, disturbances at many prisons, not just Birmingham which

:50:30.:50:33.

we have discussed today. The level of suicide in our prisons is the

:50:34.:50:36.

highest it has been for over 25 years. A truly shameful record. Very

:50:37.:50:43.

little remorse from the Secretary of State today. Will she now apologise?

:50:44.:50:47.

I have been very clear about the issues we have in our prisons

:50:48.:50:54.

system. Since I secured this role in July, I have been focused on dealing

:50:55.:50:59.

with them, making sure we make our prisons safer, making sure we invest

:51:00.:51:04.

in our staff. Making sure we invest in mental health facilities in our

:51:05.:51:09.

prisons to deal with the situation. The Justice Secretary says that the

:51:10.:51:13.

Prisons Minister chairs daily meetings with the chief executive to

:51:14.:51:16.

the prison service, to monitor prisons for risk factors that may

:51:17.:51:20.

indicate potential violence and unrest. Why was the risk of serious

:51:21.:51:28.

violence HMP Birmingham not raised in those daily meetings? If it was

:51:29.:51:31.

not raised, what is the point of having the daily meetings? I thank

:51:32.:51:36.

my honourable friend for his question, I'm sure he will recognise

:51:37.:51:40.

with an operational service like the prison service, we can reduce and

:51:41.:51:44.

minimise risk, we cannot eliminate it completely. That is what the

:51:45.:51:48.

efforts of the daily meetings are about. Reducing the level of

:51:49.:51:54.

violence, giving governors what they need to keep our prisons are safe as

:51:55.:52:00.

possible. What I would say, when the incident did occur, it was dealt

:52:01.:52:05.

with extremely effectively by the tornado teams. I want to see a more

:52:06.:52:10.

stable prison estate, that means building extra capacity so we don't

:52:11.:52:14.

have overcrowding, investing in staff, so we have prisons staff at a

:52:15.:52:19.

proper level. I have to tell the House, it will take time. Whilst we

:52:20.:52:23.

are seeking to minimise risk, we cannot prevent every incident from

:52:24.:52:32.

happening. Given the level of assaults on staff, and on prisoners,

:52:33.:52:37.

and on this order in prisons generally, it is higher in the

:52:38.:52:41.

private sector for prisoners, than the public sector, could she tell

:52:42.:52:45.

the House how many of the extra staff will be employed by the

:52:46.:52:48.

private sector, over which she has no direct control over recruitment?

:52:49.:52:57.

I thank the honourable gentleman for his question. If you look at the way

:52:58.:53:02.

we recruit prisons, the performance of the private and public sector is

:53:03.:53:07.

relatively equivalent. No significant difference between the

:53:08.:53:10.

private and public sector. We set the levels of staff that the private

:53:11.:53:16.

sector have to employ. We're moving to a 1-6 ratio in both the public

:53:17.:53:21.

and private sector. All of our evidence suggests that is enough to

:53:22.:53:26.

make sure we keep prisons safe, but also importantly we are reforming

:53:27.:53:30.

prisons. Reducing the cost of reoffending. The Secretary of State

:53:31.:53:37.

in her statement said these matters have been developing over a number

:53:38.:53:42.

of years. Isn't it the case that between 1997 and 2010, there were no

:53:43.:53:47.

category a escapes, no rights like this. Since then there have been two

:53:48.:53:53.

category eight escapes, and many other escapes. There have been

:53:54.:53:57.

record numbers of suicides, and a record numbers of homicides in our

:53:58.:54:02.

prisons. Why should we trust her party to run the prison service? I

:54:03.:54:08.

have absolutely said we have seen significant rises in violence in

:54:09.:54:14.

over recent years. That is why we have launched the prison safety and

:54:15.:54:19.

reform plan. The first thing I did when I became Secretary of State,

:54:20.:54:22.

making sure we dealt with those issues. We have face new challenges

:54:23.:54:27.

like psychoactive drugs, mobile phones, which were not an issue

:54:28.:54:32.

before. I would say to the honourable lady, since the inception

:54:33.:54:36.

of prisons we have not seriously impacted the reoffending rate, that

:54:37.:54:40.

is a challenge we face as a country costing us 15 billion. Is important

:54:41.:54:48.

that we make prison also full of reducing reoffending. They have two

:54:49.:54:55.

for both -- they have to follow both. It is a pity the Secretary of

:54:56.:55:03.

State will not admit that prisons a crisis. Why is G4S involved in the

:55:04.:55:15.

first place? Look at its past. I appreciate that the honourable

:55:16.:55:19.

gentleman, the member for Hexham, an illustrious government whip is very

:55:20.:55:22.

excited in the approach to his wedding. I would advise him that the

:55:23.:55:31.

ascent on him of a Zen like calm will aid his preparations. The

:55:32.:55:39.

organisation that had to pay back her own department 109 million for

:55:40.:55:47.

overcharging. Medway secured Centre, the Yarwood immigration detention

:55:48.:55:51.

centre. Many other cases where that organisation has been involved. Time

:55:52.:55:59.

for G4S told very clearly their organisation is no longer needed in

:56:00.:56:05.

our prison service. I would point out to the honourable gentleman, the

:56:06.:56:09.

decision to put HMP Birmingham out to private tender was a Labour

:56:10.:56:22.

decision in 2009. I appreciate the right honourable gentleman is an

:56:23.:56:25.

illustrious former Prisons Minister, eager to make his point with great

:56:26.:56:35.

force. Border. Order. I know you're trying to aid matters, you are

:56:36.:56:39.

disadvantage me in facilitating good order. Your assistance may be

:56:40.:56:44.

required at some unspecified point in the future. We must the answers

:56:45.:56:46.

from the Secretary of State. The issues we have, the underlying

:56:47.:56:55.

causes in the rise of psychoactive drugs which the prison and

:56:56.:57:00.

probations ombudsman described as a game changer, it's not having a

:57:01.:57:05.

sufficient level of staff, which I've addressed in the white paper,

:57:06.:57:08.

it's the rise of mobile phones, gangs and drugs and bullying. Those

:57:09.:57:12.

issues are common to the public and private sector. Those issues are

:57:13.:57:19.

what this Government is addressing. Thank you Mr Speaker. Will the

:57:20.:57:24.

Secretary of State now acknowledge that cutting ?700 million from the

:57:25.:57:31.

Prison Service since 2010 is at the root of the cause of these

:57:32.:57:36.

difficulties and will she now apologise to the House and say that

:57:37.:57:45.

this was a false economy? As I've already said, since I started this

:57:46.:57:50.

job in July, I have been clear that we do need additional staff in our

:57:51.:57:55.

Prison Service to face the new challenges, such as psychoactive

:57:56.:57:59.

drugs, and mobile phones, and gangs in our prisons. We are putting the

:58:00.:58:03.

money in. That's been announced in the Autumn Statement. We have a

:58:04.:58:07.

comprehensive programme of reform. A lot of the problems in our prison

:58:08.:58:11.

have been decade-long problems. That's why, for the first time ever,

:58:12.:58:16.

we're making it clear in legislation the reform is a key purpose of

:58:17.:58:18.

prison. THE SPEAKER: Let's hear the fellow

:58:19.:58:25.

from Wrexham. I'm very grateful Mr Speaker. You're

:58:26.:58:32.

most accommodating. The Secretary of State has already mentioned HM

:58:33.:58:40.

prison Berwyn in Wrexham, the largest prison in western Europe

:58:41.:58:43.

with 2,000 men reside thering in due course. Will she meet with me so

:58:44.:58:48.

that I can discuss with her the arrangements in place for the

:58:49.:58:52.

opening to allay some of the concerns of my constituents, which

:58:53.:58:56.

she can imagine on a day like today have risen somewhat? I'd be very

:58:57.:59:00.

pleased to meet the honourable gentlemanment -- honourable

:59:01.:59:05.

gentleman. If she's looking for some light reading over Christmas, she

:59:06.:59:09.

would do well to get a copy of the book written by the honourable

:59:10.:59:13.

member for Hexham, doing time, prisons in the 21st century, which

:59:14.:59:18.

has a number of ideas. If I heard you correctly, Mr Speaker, about his

:59:19.:59:21.

intended marriage, maybe that will help pay for the cost of the wedding

:59:22.:59:23.

if the Secretary of State was able if the Secretary of State was able

:59:24.:59:26.

to buy a copy? The point I want to make is there are 9,971 foreign

:59:27.:59:31.

national prisoners in our prisons at the moment. In order to reduce the

:59:32.:59:36.

prison population, what further steps are being taken to get the

:59:37.:59:39.

foreign national prisoners back to their country of origin?

:59:40.:59:45.

THE SPEAKER: Book sales will now increase no doubt manifold. I'm sure

:59:46.:59:53.

the honourable gentleman this book already has pride of place on my

:59:54.:59:58.

book shelf. I thoroughly recommend it to everybody in the House. My

:59:59.:00:02.

honourable friend is very, very committed to prison reform, so much

:00:03.:00:05.

that he agreed to become a whip in my department to keep an eye on us

:00:06.:00:09.

and making sure we're on the right track. But the honourable gentleman

:00:10.:00:13.

is absolutely right about foreign national offenders. That's an issue

:00:14.:00:24.

we're very much dealing with. Taken over by G4S and then by the prisons,

:00:25.:00:28.

the independent monitoring report says staff shortages are a major

:00:29.:00:32.

issue, "On too many occasions in many areas the services were reduced

:00:33.:00:40.

by being insufficient staff". It was the very theme of their report.

:00:41.:00:43.

Whose fault is it, the private operator or the Government? I thank

:00:44.:00:46.

the honourable gentleman for his question. Clearly, there are issues

:00:47.:00:53.

across our prison estate. There are not sufficient time out of cell.

:00:54.:00:56.

It's one of the things we're going to be measuring in our new reform

:00:57.:01:01.

measures. We don't have sufficient staff to be able to keep our prisons

:01:02.:01:05.

safe and be able to reform offenders, which is what we need to

:01:06.:01:10.

do. It took three written Parliamentary

:01:11.:01:15.

questions for me to get the Government to confess that there was

:01:16.:01:20.

only oneries anyone Britain that was free of illegal drug use. It took a

:01:21.:01:24.

fourth question to get the information that prison had no

:01:25.:01:28.

prisoners because it had closed down. This is similar toe mattic of

:01:29.:01:35.

-- symptom attic of the Government being in denial of the corruption

:01:36.:01:39.

and chaos in our Prison Service and hasn't the Government's policies for

:01:40.:01:45.

the past six years been like the minister's statement today, evidence

:01:46.:01:50.

free and ignorance rich. I congratulate the honourable

:01:51.:01:57.

gentleman on the acidious nature of his Parliamentary questions which

:01:58.:02:00.

has elucidated an answer. If he reads the prison safety and reform

:02:01.:02:04.

white paper, he will see there is a whole section on how we deal with

:02:05.:02:09.

the issue of drugs, testing offenders on entry and exit, making

:02:10.:02:13.

sure that governors are held accountable for getting people off

:02:14.:02:16.

drugs, that is the way we're going to crack this problem.

:02:17.:02:24.

As my honourable friend the Shadow secretary has pointed out, this is

:02:25.:02:28.

the worst prison disturbance since the Strangeways riots of 1990. The

:02:29.:02:34.

Wolf report recommended that no establishment should hold more

:02:35.:02:38.

prisoners than is provided for its certified normal level of

:02:39.:02:42.

accommodation. It's reported that HMP Birmingham was overcrowded by

:02:43.:02:46.

almost a third last year. Has this Government learned no lessons at all

:02:47.:02:52.

from the riots of 26 years ago? I thank the honourable lady for her

:02:53.:02:57.

question. I've discussed the issue she mentions with Lord Wolf. She's

:02:58.:03:03.

absolutely right this was a very, very serious disturbance at HMP

:03:04.:03:06.

Birmingham. That's where we're investing 1. 3 billion in our prison

:03:07.:03:13.

build programme to create extra capacity to eliminate overcrowding

:03:14.:03:20.

in the prison estate. Mr Speaker, the Howard league published a report

:03:21.:03:23.

indicating all Welsh prisons have seen a fall in the number of ofgsers

:03:24.:03:26.

compared to last year. What Shh... Is she doing to ensure the Welsh

:03:27.:03:31.

prison estate is equipped with sufficient staffing levels,

:03:32.:03:35.

especially as it's the policy of UK Government to build in wrem ham one

:03:36.:03:41.

of the largest in Europe to house prisoners from overcrowded prisons

:03:42.:03:46.

in England? I thank the honourable gentleman for his question. We have

:03:47.:03:49.

very great recruitment plans and programmes in place. We've already

:03:50.:03:53.

recruited a significant number for the first ten prisons, including one

:03:54.:03:58.

in Wales and we will be following that through with new apprenticeship

:03:59.:04:01.

programmes, graduate entry programmes and also making sure that

:04:02.:04:07.

staff in our Prison Service are able to gain promotion and get the

:04:08.:04:09.

training they need to process. -- progress.

:04:10.:04:14.

The president of the National Council of independent monitoring

:04:15.:04:18.

boards is John Thornhill, he says the boards are frustrated bit lack

:04:19.:04:21.

of response to the issues raised in her annual reports. Can the

:04:22.:04:26.

Secretary of State tell me three specific and sub-Stan Tiff actions

:04:27.:04:31.

taken as a result of the relevant monitoring board's latest annual

:04:32.:04:35.

report into Birmingham? I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:04:36.:04:39.

question. The white paper is very clear about reforming and making

:04:40.:04:47.

sure that IMB recommendations are taken seriously and working closely

:04:48.:04:51.

with Her Majesty's Inspectorate of prisons. At the moment there is no

:04:52.:04:54.

duty for the Secretary of State to respond. That's what we're putting

:04:55.:04:57.

in place to make sure it triggers action. How many staff were on duty

:04:58.:05:07.

when the riots started? And what's her estimate of the cost of the

:05:08.:05:12.

disturbance? I thank the honourable gentleman for his question. I've

:05:13.:05:17.

recounted the events of the day as far as we are aware of them. But

:05:18.:05:21.

there will be a full investigation that will make all of those facts

:05:22.:05:23.

clear. THE SPEAKER: The honourable

:05:24.:05:27.

gentleman is a noted thespian, I know therefore he will greatly enjoy

:05:28.:05:31.

the warm ack La mags that he receives when he rises from his

:05:32.:05:41.

seat. Mr Speaker, no-one could seriously for a moment attempt to

:05:42.:05:46.

deny that there is a something rotten in the prison estate at this

:05:47.:05:52.

moment. I would like to give credit of finally considering the issue of

:05:53.:05:59.

post release work. She has an her benches the greatest expert in

:06:00.:06:03.

Parliament on that particular subject. Would she have the

:06:04.:06:09.

gentleman, the member for Crewe, to give a report to the House in say

:06:10.:06:13.

six months' time on what the Government is doing for post-release

:06:14.:06:18.

employment? It is that crucial? The honourable gentleman is absolutely

:06:19.:06:23.

right. Making sure that people have a job to go to when they leave

:06:24.:06:27.

custody is vital. I'm already working very closely with members of

:06:28.:06:31.

the honourable member for Crewe's family on this. In fact, the prisons

:06:32.:06:36.

minister will be publishing a report on this issue next year. Plans about

:06:37.:06:42.

how we're going to make sure that governors are held accountable for

:06:43.:06:45.

how effective they are at getting offenders in their prison into work.

:06:46.:06:55.

THE SPEAKER: Order. It's a point of a clarification for the minister if

:06:56.:06:57.

she may. THE SPEAKER: I hope it isn't a

:06:58.:07:02.

continuation of the debate? Well, he's got an honest face, I'll give

:07:03.:07:08.

him a chance. Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker, the Lord Chancellor

:07:09.:07:11.

indicated that the Labour Government privatised HMP Birmingham. Could she

:07:12.:07:17.

agree that the Ministry of Justice announced in March 2011 that G 4 H

:07:18.:07:23.

would take over HMP Birmingham. THE SPEAKER: The honourable

:07:24.:07:27.

gentleman has made his own point in his own way. The point I made was

:07:28.:07:34.

the decision to put HMP Birmingham out to tender was made by Labour.

:07:35.:07:45.

THE SPEAKER: Order. Order. There's quite a lot of eccentric Jess tick

:07:46.:07:54.

Haitian going on -- gesticulation. Consult the record, it would be very

:07:55.:07:59.

useful to read and digest the official report tomorrow morning

:08:00.:08:01.

over breakfast. The honourable gentleman will probably find it

:08:02.:08:04.

therapeutic. I'm grateful to the Secretary of State. Order. Statement

:08:05.:08:07.

the Secretary Of state for defence. Secretary

:08:08.:08:11.

Michael Fallon. With permission, Mr Speaker, I would

:08:12.:08:26.

like to update the House on an announcement that was made in Riyadh

:08:27.:08:29.

earlier today on the conflict in Yemen. In 2014, Houthi forces and

:08:30.:08:36.

those loyal to former president S arrest lah took over the capital and

:08:37.:08:43.

forced out the government. Hugy forces have consequently attacked

:08:44.:08:47.

Saudi territory, shelling villages daily and killing Saudi civilians. A

:08:48.:08:53.

ten-country Saudi-led coalition intervened to restore the

:08:54.:08:58.

government, to deter further Houthi aggression and defend the Saudi

:08:59.:09:02.

border. United Nations Security Council resolution 2216 condemned

:09:03.:09:08.

the Houthi's actions. The United Kingdom fully supports both the

:09:09.:09:13.

coalition and the right of Saudi Arabia to defend itself. Instability

:09:14.:09:18.

in Yemen, where there is a long standing presence of Al-Qaeda, and a

:09:19.:09:23.

growing threaten from Daesh, seen tragically in Aidan this weekend,

:09:24.:09:29.

threatens not just the Gulf but our security in western Europe. Concerns

:09:30.:09:34.

have been raised in this House and by nongovernmental organisations

:09:35.:09:36.

about our export of military equipment to Saudi Arabia and

:09:37.:09:42.

elsewhere in the Gulf. There have been allegations about breaches of

:09:43.:09:46.

international humanitarian law. Because we operate one of the

:09:47.:09:51.

strictest arms export control regimes in the world, we take any

:09:52.:09:55.

such allegations very seriously and we do our best to ensure that they

:09:56.:10:00.

are properly investigated by the coalition. Following the air strike

:10:01.:10:07.

on the Great Hall on October 26 this year, for example, I spoke to the

:10:08.:10:12.

Saudi Defence Minister, the Foreign Secretary spoke to his counterpart

:10:13.:10:15.

and the Parliamentary under secretary for the Foreign Office

:10:16.:10:19.

travelled to Riyadh to underline our concerns in person. The coalition's

:10:20.:10:26.

joint incidence assessment team subsequently announced interim

:10:27.:10:29.

findings within a week. The coalition committed to review its

:10:30.:10:32.

rules of engagement and command and control systems and to take action

:10:33.:10:37.

against those held responsible. We acknowledge the progress they have

:10:38.:10:42.

made and we look forward to the completed investigation on that

:10:43.:10:47.

incident. The coalition continues to investigate other allegations. The

:10:48.:10:51.

findings of eight investigations were announced on 4th August and a

:10:52.:10:57.

further five on the 6th December. We are pressing the coalition to

:10:58.:11:00.

complete all the remaining investigations as quickly as

:11:01.:11:07.

possible. One specific allegations that UK supplied cluster munitions

:11:08.:11:12.

were used in January this year was raised in this House on 24th May.

:11:13.:11:18.

The United Kingdom signed the convention on cluster munitions in

:11:19.:11:24.

2008 and has not supplied any such weons to Saudi Arabia -- weapons to

:11:25.:11:30.

Saudi Arabia since 1989, over a quarter of a century ago. Our

:11:31.:11:34.

initial view, set out by the then minister of state for defence

:11:35.:11:37.

procurement and based on the information we held at the time, was

:11:38.:11:42.

that a UK weapon had not been used but we committed to analyse the

:11:43.:11:47.

allegation and to seek a full investigation by the coalition. That

:11:48.:11:56.

investigation has now concluded. The coalition confirmed earlier today

:11:57.:12:03.

that a limited number of BL 755 cluster munitions exported from the

:12:04.:12:08.

United Kingdom in the 1980s were dropped in Yemen, including in the

:12:09.:12:13.

incident alleged by amnesty international, not far from the

:12:14.:12:17.

Saudi border by a coalition aircraft.

:12:18.:12:22.

The coalition whose members are not party to the convention, has said

:12:23.:12:28.

that the munitions were used against a legitimate military target and did

:12:29.:12:33.

not, therefore, contravene international humanitarian law.

:12:34.:12:40.

However, Saudi Arabia has now confirmed that they will not further

:12:41.:12:47.

use BL755 cluster munitions, and I welcome that. This particular

:12:48.:12:53.

instance shows that with our support, and in complete contrast to

:12:54.:12:58.

Russian and Syrian air strikes, that where allegations are made the Saudi

:12:59.:13:03.

led coalition is prepared to investigate thoroughly, to publish

:13:04.:13:10.

the findings, and take action where appropriate. I can assure the House

:13:11.:13:14.

that we will continue to keep current sales of military equipment

:13:15.:13:19.

to Saudi Arabia and two other Gulf allies under review, in accordance

:13:20.:13:23.

with our arms export criteria, and I commend this statement to the House.

:13:24.:13:30.

Mr Speaker, can I thank the Secretary of State for his statement

:13:31.:13:35.

and advance sight of it. Mr Speaker, we are all deeply concerned about

:13:36.:13:42.

the ongoing conflict in Yemen. And the dire humanitarian situation this

:13:43.:13:46.

has caused. As the House is aware there have been widespread

:13:47.:13:51.

allegations from both sides of the conflict that they have violated

:13:52.:13:54.

international law. The latest revelation that the UK made cluster

:13:55.:13:58.

munitions used by the Saudi coalition in Yemen is deeply

:13:59.:14:04.

worrying. Not only are these weapons dangerous but they come with a toxic

:14:05.:14:10.

legacy lying on battlefields and threatening civilians, especially

:14:11.:14:13.

children, long after a conflict has ended. In 2008 the last Labour

:14:14.:14:19.

government signed the Convention on cluster munitions. The strikes the

:14:20.:14:24.

Secretary of State has described today amount to be first confirmed

:14:25.:14:28.

use of UK made cluster bombs since that date. Can the Secretary of

:14:29.:14:34.

State tell the House when was he first made aware of the possible use

:14:35.:14:40.

of such weapons by the coalition in Yemen and why has it taken so long

:14:41.:14:44.

to confirm that these weapons were in fact used? A few days ago the

:14:45.:14:50.

Secretary of State will be aware that the Obama administration

:14:51.:14:54.

blocked the sale of guided munitions kits over concerns about civilian

:14:55.:14:59.

casualties. This followed the United States' blocking of the sale of

:15:00.:15:03.

cluster munitions to the state of Saudi Arabia. The Foreign Minister

:15:04.:15:07.

has said that the test for British arms sales is "Whether those weapons

:15:08.:15:12.

might be used in the commission of a serious breach of international

:15:13.:15:19.

humanitarian law". I know the Defence Secretary has confirmed that

:15:20.:15:22.

a limited number of cluster munitions supplied by this country

:15:23.:15:25.

were dropped in Yemen by a coalition aircraft. Although these cluster

:15:26.:15:32.

munitions were exported in the 1980s, will the Government commit to

:15:33.:15:35.

examining whether its current policy needs to be changed? Surely they

:15:36.:15:43.

have been actions which are wholly unacceptable and this country cannot

:15:44.:15:48.

sit on its hands. The Government has consistently rejected calls for

:15:49.:15:52.

independent United Nations led investigation into a possible breach

:15:53.:15:58.

of a humanitarian and international law in the Yemen. In light of what

:15:59.:16:02.

we have learned today, could I implore the Government to heed calls

:16:03.:16:08.

from these benches, as well as from the business foreign affairs and

:16:09.:16:10.

International Development Committee is to have such an inquiry. We need

:16:11.:16:17.

such an inquiry so that we can have independent verification of all the

:16:18.:16:20.

actions of both sides in this conflict. Finally, Mr Speaker, on

:16:21.:16:27.

the humanitarian situation, can the Secretary of State set out what

:16:28.:16:31.

action is being taken to help the 14 million people in need of urgent

:16:32.:16:35.

food and the 13 million Yemenis who lack access to clean water. In

:16:36.:16:40.

particular, we would like to know what is being done to help those

:16:41.:16:43.

children suffering so desperately in this conflict.

:16:44.:16:50.

I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman. We all want to see this

:16:51.:16:54.

conflict brought to an end, and I hope we would be evenhanded about

:16:55.:17:01.

that. Over 90 Saudi civilians have lost their lives through this

:17:02.:17:04.

conflict through shelling over their border into Saudi Arabia and over

:17:05.:17:07.

500, including women and children, have been injured and it is

:17:08.:17:12.

important those are set alongside other allegations of civilian

:17:13.:17:17.

casualties in Yemen itself. He asks me when we first became aware of

:17:18.:17:22.

this allegation. We were made aware of it in the spring, it was brought

:17:23.:17:27.

to the floor of this House in May. Our own analysis began. I wrote back

:17:28.:17:36.

to Amnesty at the end of June telling them we had commenced work

:17:37.:17:40.

on our own analysis. But our analysis could only take us so far.

:17:41.:17:44.

The investigation itself was a matter for the Saudi authorities and

:17:45.:17:49.

that is the investigation that has continued throughout the autumn and

:17:50.:17:56.

has only concluded in the last few days. And we too have been

:17:57.:18:00.

frustrated by the length of time that it has taken. But the

:18:01.:18:05.

investigation is being carried out and it has now got us to the

:18:06.:18:09.

transparent admission that has been made this morning. The asked me

:18:10.:18:15.

about the United States stopping the supply of munitions. We should be

:18:16.:18:21.

careful here, the United States has only stopped one munitions license.

:18:22.:18:25.

They continue to supply combat aircraft, attack helicopters, and

:18:26.:18:30.

other munitions to Saudi Arabia. Only one licence has been stopped.

:18:31.:18:36.

We have a different process as he has described, and it is an arms

:18:37.:18:40.

control process that we keep under continuous review. He asked me what

:18:41.:18:46.

our current policy on cluster munitions weapons is. It is exactly

:18:47.:18:51.

the same as it was left under the Labour government. We oppose the use

:18:52.:18:55.

of cluster munitions, let me be very clear to the House. We are

:18:56.:18:59.

signatories, we are parties to that convention and we opposed the use of

:19:00.:19:03.

cluster munitions. We have made that very clear to the Saudi authorities,

:19:04.:19:11.

and we therefore welcome their announcement today that they will no

:19:12.:19:20.

longer use cluster munitions. That is a result from this investigation

:19:21.:19:25.

and the pressure that we have been putting on. Finally he asked me

:19:26.:19:29.

about an independent inquiry. We have been clear throughout that an

:19:30.:19:36.

allegation like this is first for the Saudi authorities and the

:19:37.:19:38.

coalition authorities to investigate. They have shown through

:19:39.:19:45.

this process that they are able to do that. They have investigated.

:19:46.:19:51.

They have today announced the findings and they have today taken

:19:52.:19:55.

action as a result. Doctor Julian Lewis.

:19:56.:19:59.

Have the Saudis explained why they used these British supplied weapons,

:20:00.:20:05.

presumably in the knowledge it would cause considerable embarrassment to

:20:06.:20:08.

the British Government? And what plans do they have to dispose of

:20:09.:20:14.

their remaining stocks? The Saudis have made clear that they use these

:20:15.:20:19.

munitions in a border area just a few kilometres from the Saudi border

:20:20.:20:27.

in Yemen on a legitimate military target which may have been

:20:28.:20:30.

responsible for some of the attacks and deaths they had been suffering

:20:31.:20:34.

on their side of the border. They therefore stay that the use of these

:20:35.:20:37.

cluster munitions, because they are not parties to the convention, does

:20:38.:20:44.

not contravene international law. So far as stocks are concerned they

:20:45.:20:48.

have made it clear they will not use UK supplied cluster munitions in

:20:49.:20:51.

future, and I think we should all welcome that. Mr Brendan O'Hara. Mr

:20:52.:20:57.

Speaker, we on these benches have been clear for many, many months

:20:58.:21:01.

that there have been undeniable violations of international

:21:02.:21:04.

humanitarian law by Saudi Arabia in its conflict in Yemen. There is

:21:05.:21:08.

overwhelming evidence that the Saudis have been failing to conduct

:21:09.:21:12.

military operations lawfully, a situation indeed that caused the

:21:13.:21:16.

United States to join the Netherlands and Germany in

:21:17.:21:19.

suspending arms sales to Saudi Arabia very recently. Once again, Mr

:21:20.:21:24.

Speaker, Madame Deputy Speaker, the Saudi regime stands accused of

:21:25.:21:27.

routinely using cluster bombs against the Yemeni people, a weapon

:21:28.:21:32.

even this government describes as unjustifiable because it is designed

:21:33.:21:38.

to kill and injure civilians. Today's revelations aren't

:21:39.:21:41.

particularly new, but unless the Government acts immediately to end

:21:42.:21:45.

arms sales to Saudi Arabia the court of public opinion will find it

:21:46.:21:50.

guilty of collusion and violations of international humanitarian law.

:21:51.:21:54.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I have a couple of questions. Can the

:21:55.:21:57.

Secretary of State tell us when did you first see the analysis

:21:58.:22:00.

confirming the UK cluster bombs, and is up-to-date's Guardian article

:22:01.:22:06.

correct in saying he first saw it a month ago? And if that is the case

:22:07.:22:11.

why is the House only finding out now after it appeared in the press?

:22:12.:22:16.

His statement says that the cluster bombs were used against legitimate

:22:17.:22:22.

military targets, and therefore did not contravene international

:22:23.:22:25.

humanitarian law. But how can we continue to do business with a

:22:26.:22:29.

regime who routinely use cluster bombs against civilian populations?

:22:30.:22:34.

This country is a signatory to the treaty which obliges us to stop

:22:35.:22:42.

other people using such munitions. And finally, Madame Deputy Speaker,

:22:43.:22:46.

can I ask, what does a regime have to do? How many breaches of

:22:47.:22:49.

international humanitarian law must it commit before this government

:22:50.:22:55.

deems them an unacceptable partner to deal in arms?

:22:56.:23:01.

First of all, I'm not sure the honourable gentleman was listening.

:23:02.:23:04.

The United States has not suspended arms sales to Saudi Arabia, he is

:23:05.:23:09.

incorrect about that. They have suspended one sale of munitions.

:23:10.:23:15.

They continue to sell munitions generally to Saudi Arabia, they

:23:16.:23:20.

continue to supply aircraft and attack helicopters. Secondly, there

:23:21.:23:24.

is no evidence that cluster munitions have been routinely used

:23:25.:23:29.

in Yemen. On the contrary, this allegation stood out for what it is.

:23:30.:23:36.

This allegation stood out for what it is, and it has been thoroughly

:23:37.:23:40.

investigated, and as a result of that investigation, and as a result

:23:41.:23:46.

of our pressure, we have now an undertaking from Saudi Arabia that

:23:47.:23:51.

they will not use cluster munitions of this kind in the future, and

:23:52.:23:55.

indeed that Saudi Arabia is now considering becoming a party to the

:23:56.:24:02.

Convention. He asked me when I first became aware of the analysis that we

:24:03.:24:11.

were doing. We started analyses as my Right Honourable friend the

:24:12.:24:14.

member for defence procurement, told the House in May, that we would look

:24:15.:24:20.

hard at this allegation. We began our analysis but we were not

:24:21.:24:23.

investigating this allegation, only the coalition could investigate this

:24:24.:24:26.

allegation because only the coalition had access to all the

:24:27.:24:32.

information that would be needed to see whether this particular

:24:33.:24:36.

allegation was justified. That investigation has taken a long time,

:24:37.:24:41.

I concede that but we now have the result, and we now have the

:24:42.:24:45.

admission from the Saudi authorities that cluster munitions were used

:24:46.:24:47.

together with the undertaking that they won't be used in the future.

:24:48.:24:57.

Are the Saudis correct in seeing the existence of an Iranian backed

:24:58.:25:01.

Houthi regime on their southern border as an existential threat to

:25:02.:25:08.

the kingdom? In a word, yes, and they are seeing villages being

:25:09.:25:11.

shelled on a daily basis across-the-board and I have yet to

:25:12.:25:15.

hear any member on the benches opposite condemn that shelling, or

:25:16.:25:20.

taking any notice of the lives that have been lost, the innocent lives

:25:21.:25:25.

that have been lost, on the Saudi side of the border. As well, of

:25:26.:25:28.

course, as the innocent lives that are being lost in the conflict in

:25:29.:25:33.

Yemen. Absolutely, Saudi Arabia has the right to defend itself. Keith

:25:34.:25:40.

Vaz. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. I am glad he and is being

:25:41.:25:43.

discussed in the House again today but sad and disappointed that it is

:25:44.:25:47.

for these reasons. Of course I accept the assurances given by the

:25:48.:25:51.

Minister, and I know that he will ensure that the Saudi Arabian

:25:52.:25:54.

government will also keep to their promise. But what the people of

:25:55.:25:57.

Yemen need over the next few days is a ceasefire. Bombs, famine and

:25:58.:26:05.

cholera, the country is starving to death and desperately needs that

:26:06.:26:09.

ceasefire. The Prime Minister said the minister, the member for

:26:10.:26:12.

Bournemouth East, who has done so much work on this issue was in

:26:13.:26:15.

Riyadh yesterday. Can he give us any further information as to how we can

:26:16.:26:21.

get this ceasefire so the aid can start getting through to save the

:26:22.:26:24.

people of Yemen before it's too late? That's a very constructive

:26:25.:26:30.

approach from the honourable gentleman, I know of his interest in

:26:31.:26:34.

chairing the all-party group. We are trying as a government to do two

:26:35.:26:37.

things, first to bring about the ceasefire that he seeks and that we

:26:38.:26:42.

have all sought in Yemen by getting the parties together, because in the

:26:43.:26:45.

end there has to be some kind of political settlement in Yemen. We

:26:46.:26:52.

have been working towards that end. Second, my honourable friend was in

:26:53.:26:56.

Riyadh just yesterday, I believe, working on this. We need urgently to

:26:57.:27:02.

get the ports, including head I do, properly opened, so we can get

:27:03.:27:07.

humanitarian aid in, particularly for the civilian population so

:27:08.:27:08.

desperately needed now. Bill Wiggin. Can he talk about the relationship

:27:09.:27:17.

we have with Saudi Arabia and how it keeps our streets safer here? Yeah,

:27:18.:27:23.

Saudi Arabia is a key partner in our fight against terrorism. We depend

:27:24.:27:29.

on each other's intelligence. There are terrorist plots to this country,

:27:30.:27:33.

of which we have been forewarned by Saudi Arabia and it is essential for

:27:34.:27:39.

our own security that we keep our relationship with Saudi Arabia in

:27:40.:27:47.

good repair. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm so the sorry to say

:27:48.:27:52.

that those of us with long memories, this reminds me of the sort of

:27:53.:27:55.

discussions we used to have on arms to Iraq. Eventually we had an

:27:56.:28:03.

inquiry and we found that Government ministers had misled us. I won't put

:28:04.:28:08.

it any stronger than that. Those on here at this time, they should

:28:09.:28:13.

reflect on the kinds of answers that were given to us. We knew what was

:28:14.:28:17.

going on in Iraq. We know what's going on in the Yemen. How can we

:28:18.:28:23.

possibly support continuing to send arms to Saudi Arabia, which are

:28:24.:28:29.

being used in that country? As somebody who was here part of the

:28:30.:28:34.

time during that process, I certainly recall the very close

:28:35.:28:38.

attention the House eventually paid to the sale of arms to Iraq. Now we

:28:39.:28:45.

have partly as a result of exactly what happened in the 1980s, a very

:28:46.:28:53.

tough arms export control regime. We keep our armeds sales -- arms sales

:28:54.:29:00.

under continuous review. We weigh up each successive license, when it's

:29:01.:29:03.

brought before ministers. But we need also to be very clear that

:29:04.:29:08.

Saudi Arabia has the right to defend itself and Saudi Arabia is coming

:29:09.:29:13.

quite legitimately to answer the call of the legitimate government of

:29:14.:29:21.

Yemen in coming to its aid. I must say, earlier I wascy little

:29:22.:29:25.

surprised to hear it's almost three decades ago since we last sold

:29:26.:29:29.

cluster munitions to sowedament but it was heartening to -- Saudi

:29:30.:29:33.

Arabia. But it's heartening to hear they've agreed to no longer use

:29:34.:29:38.

them. Can my right honourable friend tell me whether any UK personnel is

:29:39.:29:44.

used in supporting the continued mans nens to allow the cluster

:29:45.:29:48.

munitions to be used since we signed the convention in 2008. I'm happy to

:29:49.:29:52.

give my honourable friend that very specific assurance. No United

:29:53.:29:57.

Kingdom personnel have been involved in the storage, the transport, the

:29:58.:30:02.

maintenance or the deployment of any cluster munitions in Saudi Arabia.

:30:03.:30:09.

I'm sure everyone in this House would condemn the murder of Saudi

:30:10.:30:14.

civilians in the way they do Yemeni civilians. We're talking about the

:30:15.:30:19.

sale of UK weapons to Saudi. How many times have cluster munitions

:30:20.:30:23.

been dropped? And have they been drop ped on any occasions by

:30:24.:30:29.

UK-supplied aircraft. Were all the targets legitimate military targets?

:30:30.:30:32.

And what the UK involvement in the targeting? We are only aware of this

:30:33.:30:39.

single allegation that has now been fully investigated by the Saudi

:30:40.:30:45.

authorities, a single allegation that cluster munitions were used in

:30:46.:30:49.

this particular incident around the turn of the year and as the Saudis

:30:50.:30:54.

have made clear today, have been dropped by a coalition aircraft. I'm

:30:55.:30:58.

sorry, he asked me a second question? By a coalition aircraft is

:30:59.:31:05.

what the Saudis have said today. He had a further question, I'm sorry?

:31:06.:31:13.

They were all legitimate targets? So far as the target is concerned, the

:31:14.:31:17.

Saudi authorities have said today that these munitions were used

:31:18.:31:22.

against a legitimate military target in the border area between, on the

:31:23.:31:28.

Yemeni side of the Saudi border. So far as UK involvement, we are not

:31:29.:31:36.

involved in approving or selecting targets for the coalition in Yemen.

:31:37.:31:45.

Iran, North Korea, Cuba, we see what happens when countries are shunned

:31:46.:31:50.

bit international community. Does my right honourable friend agree with

:31:51.:31:53.

me, it's positive engagement through the diplomatic service with our

:31:54.:31:57.

ally, Saudi Arabia, that will influence this process and not

:31:58.:31:59.

shunning them like some on the benches opposite suggest? Exactly.

:32:00.:32:06.

There is nothing to be gained by shunning or boycotting Saudi Arabia.

:32:07.:32:11.

On the contrary, Saudi Arabia is on the cusp of enormous social and

:32:12.:32:16.

economic reforms, as well as being a key security partner and a key

:32:17.:32:20.

trading partner and a key investment partner in this, in our own country,

:32:21.:32:27.

Saudi Arabia now is on the cusp of a major reform programme of its

:32:28.:32:31.

economy and its society. We ought to be playing our part in that, rather

:32:32.:32:38.

than constantly calling from the side linesment Could the Secretary

:32:39.:32:45.

of State of be clear what specific date did the Saudis inform him or

:32:46.:32:50.

colleagues that they had used UK cluster munitions in Yemen? Given

:32:51.:32:55.

the range of allegations, which still don't have answers, MSF are

:32:56.:32:58.

questioning some of the investigations, why should we trust

:32:59.:33:03.

Saudi Arabia that they have conducted operations lawfully and

:33:04.:33:06.

appropriately? The official confirmation about this particular

:33:07.:33:10.

allegation has come today, this afternoon, from Riyadh. I thought it

:33:11.:33:14.

right that Parliament should be informed as soon as that

:33:15.:33:19.

announcement was made in Riyadh. There are other investigations

:33:20.:33:23.

outstanding. We continue to press the Saudi authorities to get those

:33:24.:33:27.

investigations wrapped up, to get the findings published and then to

:33:28.:33:32.

take action if there are weak bes in their -- weaknesses in their command

:33:33.:33:37.

and control procedures to get them remedied. It is only through that, I

:33:38.:33:41.

think, that they will demonstrate that the assurance that's they give

:33:42.:33:44.

us and their other allies are properly valid. What analysis has

:33:45.:33:53.

the Defence Secretary made of the humanitarian consequences of the

:33:54.:34:00.

illicit redistribution of munitions, cluster munitions including BL 755

:34:01.:34:06.

from chaotic, failed and post-conflict states on civilian

:34:07.:34:08.

populations throughout the Middle East and north Africa and much

:34:09.:34:14.

further afield. Well, clearly, we oppose the use of cluster munitions.

:34:15.:34:21.

We don't keep records of how these stocks that may have been

:34:22.:34:25.

accumulated by countries in the Middle East have been later

:34:26.:34:31.

distributed or sold on. Clearly, we oppose their use in any conflict

:34:32.:34:40.

now. I welcome the secretary's statement but it is simply not the

:34:41.:34:44.

case that this these British-made cluster munitions were used against

:34:45.:34:49.

a legitimate military target. They were dropped in farmland in northern

:34:50.:34:54.

Yemen, creating de facto mine fields which have killed and injured

:34:55.:34:57.

civilians. It's taken over six months for the Saudi led coalition

:34:58.:35:02.

to admit using these. Why now does the secretary give them the benefit

:35:03.:35:07.

of the doubt over their use when such international humanitarian law

:35:08.:35:11.

breaches are being alleged? I've not seen evidence that the dropping of

:35:12.:35:15.

this particular munition has resulted in any civilian casualties.

:35:16.:35:20.

On the contrary, this was a munition that from the, from all accounts had

:35:21.:35:28.

not exploded probably because of its age. If she has evidence that any

:35:29.:35:32.

civilians have been either killed or injured, we would very much like to

:35:33.:35:37.

see it. The investigation, as I've made clear, has taken a while. We

:35:38.:35:41.

have continued to press the Saudis that when something like this is

:35:42.:35:44.

alleged, they need to be as transparent as possible. They need

:35:45.:35:48.

to get on with the investigation. They need to reassure their allies

:35:49.:35:53.

by simply publishing the findings. If something went wrong, then

:35:54.:35:56.

admitting it went wrong and putting it right. That is not what happens

:35:57.:36:01.

when we consider the Russian bombing of completely innocent civilians in

:36:02.:36:07.

Aleppo. May I welcome my right honourable

:36:08.:36:10.

friend's statement to the House today. Could I ask him to say a few

:36:11.:36:13.

words on the regional situation that has led to this conflict. Clearly

:36:14.:36:18.

the Iranian invasion in Yemen is causing many of the issues and while

:36:19.:36:22.

he is talking about the regional situation, would he join with me in

:36:23.:36:27.

offering condolences to the family of Russia's ambassador to Turkey,

:36:28.:36:31.

who was tragically murdered today and agree with me that just because

:36:32.:36:36.

we condemn Russian violence in Aleppo, does not mean we support

:36:37.:36:40.

other violence against Russia in other parts of the world. I'm sure

:36:41.:36:45.

the House will join with him and me in condemning the number dear of the

:36:46.:36:49.

Russian ambassador to Turkey, a shocking act, involving a diplomat,

:36:50.:36:55.

who should otherwise, of course, enjoy proper protection and whose

:36:56.:36:59.

murder does not bring any conflict in the Middle East further to

:37:00.:37:06.

resolution. There are, however, too many states in the Middle East who

:37:07.:37:12.

are acting beyond their borders, like Iran, clearly involved

:37:13.:37:16.

behind-the-scenes in Yemen, in prolonging a conflict that only

:37:17.:37:18.

perpetuates the suffering the Yemeni people. I commend the Defence

:37:19.:37:24.

Secretary on making a statement rather than being dragged here to be

:37:25.:37:27.

given an urgent question. That's an important part of the way we do our

:37:28.:37:31.

business here. I commend him for it. I support what he says about Saudi

:37:32.:37:34.

Arabia having a right to defend itself. Surely the point is not at

:37:35.:37:39.

any cost and not in any way. That's all we're trying to get at really.

:37:40.:37:44.

So when the honourable member for Ludlow, who is an honourable man. I

:37:45.:37:49.

don't think for an instant wanted to mislead the house, when you said in

:37:50.:37:52.

May, based on all the information available to us, including sensitive

:37:53.:37:56.

coalition operational reporting, we assess that no UK supplied cluster

:37:57.:38:03.

munitions have been used, had he been lied to by coalition allies and

:38:04.:38:07.

in which case, can we really trust anything that the Saudis say today?

:38:08.:38:12.

No, as I made clear, that was his view at the time, based on the only

:38:13.:38:17.

information that we had available, long before the investigation had

:38:18.:38:21.

properly started, which has concluded today. That was the best

:38:22.:38:27.

information he had at the time. On his first point, yes, and the

:38:28.:38:32.

purpose of international humanitarian law is to recognise

:38:33.:38:35.

that states have the right to defend themselves but they have to do so in

:38:36.:38:41.

a way that is necessary, that is proportionate, that avoids hitting

:38:42.:38:46.

the sick or the wounded and properly distinguishes between combatants and

:38:47.:38:47.

noncombatants. That is the basis of noncombatants. That is the basis of

:38:48.:38:53.

international humanitarian law. The Saudis believe, and he may not

:38:54.:38:59.

accept this, the Saudis believe in this particular ins dented, this

:39:00.:39:02.

edid respect international humanitarian law. How many BL 755

:39:03.:39:06.

cluster munitions were exported from this country to Saudi Arabia before

:39:07.:39:12.

1989? What is their shelf life? And how many cluster munitions were used

:39:13.:39:18.

in this particular incident? I don't have to hand and I'm not sure,

:39:19.:39:22.

indeed we still have the reports from -- records from the 1980s as to

:39:23.:39:27.

exactly how many cluster munitions were exported. I'm sorry to tell my

:39:28.:39:32.

honourable friend I'm not so much of an expert as to know the precise

:39:33.:39:44.

obselescence of this weapon. If he will allow me, I will wroo write to

:39:45.:39:48.

him on those points. Can I welcome the minister's statement as well.

:39:49.:39:52.

When I was on the Defence Select Committee along with the chair,

:39:53.:39:56.

sitting here as well, we attended a joint meeting with the arms exports

:39:57.:39:59.

sales committee, which some of the ministers here were at as well. We

:40:00.:40:04.

were assured if evidence was proven to be true that action would be

:40:05.:40:08.

taken. The proof has been confirmed today in relation to his statement.

:40:09.:40:13.

Can we ask what sanctions will be taken against Saudi Arabia? Is it

:40:14.:40:19.

too much to ask that the blanket bombing of Yemen's civilians, the

:40:20.:40:25.

murder of innocents should stop immediately As I've made clear

:40:26.:40:28.

throughout this evening, there are innocents being killed on both sides

:40:29.:40:33.

in this terrible conflict and there are Saudi innocent civilians being

:40:34.:40:37.

killed by Houthis through the shelling and constant attacks across

:40:38.:40:44.

the Saudi-Yemeni border. He asks what action we're taking. We're the

:40:45.:40:49.

ones who have pressed for this allegation to be properly

:40:50.:40:53.

investigated and, although it may not satisfy the honourable

:40:54.:40:57.

gentleman, we have the result today. We have a decision by the Saudi

:40:58.:41:02.

government that it will no longer be using cluster munition weapons. That

:41:03.:41:09.

is a result for us. Can I ask my right honourable

:41:10.:41:12.

friend, what implications it would be for Britain if we didn't have a

:41:13.:41:15.

close relationship with Saudi Arabia? Well, we would certainly be

:41:16.:41:21.

weakened in our fight against terrorism. Our Security Services

:41:22.:41:25.

would lose the cooperation we have with the Saudi authorities. But more

:41:26.:41:30.

than that, Saudi is an investor in our country. It's a key trade

:41:31.:41:36.

partner of ours in the Gulf. It's an important ally in promoting in

:41:37.:41:39.

security the stability that we all want to see in the Middle East.

:41:40.:41:44.

Ian Murray. The Secretary of State continues to

:41:45.:41:51.

use the word allegation but this is no longer an allegation, it is a

:41:52.:41:54.

proven fact that a British cluster bomb has been used in the conflict

:41:55.:41:59.

in Yemen. Given it took seven months for the Saudi Arabian authorities in

:42:00.:42:02.

his words to be transparent, committee honestly saying his

:42:03.:42:06.

government's sanction on Saudi Arabia is enough to accept his

:42:07.:42:09.

reassurance? He's right that from today we should describe this as a

:42:10.:42:12.

fact rather than an allegation, I was calling it an allegation because

:42:13.:42:15.

that is what it was when it was first brought before this House back

:42:16.:42:20.

in May. But now we have the confirmation from Saudi Arabia that

:42:21.:42:26.

a coalition aircraft did drop one of these cluster munitions around the

:42:27.:42:32.

turn of the year. So far as sanctions are concerned, as I have

:42:33.:42:37.

said it is this country that has pressed for all these allegations,

:42:38.:42:40.

and some of them are still allegations, for all of these

:42:41.:42:43.

allegations to be properly investigated, findings to be

:42:44.:42:45.

published and where necessary for evidence from the Saudi coalition

:42:46.:42:52.

authorities that changes have been made in their command and control,

:42:53.:42:57.

or rules of engagement, or targeting procedures. Those are the results

:42:58.:43:05.

that we want to see. I am pleased to hear the news that Saudi is no

:43:06.:43:08.

longer using the cluster munitions, but will the government encourage

:43:09.:43:14.

the Saudis not just stop using them but to destroy any remaining cluster

:43:15.:43:19.

munitions that they have? I can tell my honourable friend that we have

:43:20.:43:23.

put that request in to the Saudi government and I hope they will

:43:24.:43:26.

accept that suggestion of hers and of hours. Nick Smith.

:43:27.:43:33.

Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. Yemen is said to be one step away

:43:34.:43:38.

from famine, so can our government help open the ports and the airports

:43:39.:43:42.

so that humanitarian aid can be shipped to its people?

:43:43.:43:50.

Yes. The key is to get aid into the country, and that means reopening

:43:51.:43:53.

the ports that have been damaged in the fighting, particularly Hadidah.

:43:54.:44:02.

Hadidah. Hadidah. So sorry. And making arrangements that will allow

:44:03.:44:10.

the charities and NGOs to get on now with the vital work. He's right that

:44:11.:44:13.

the country is on the brink of famine, and probably beyond that

:44:14.:44:21.

now. There is not enough food or oil, or other essentials getting

:44:22.:44:27.

through to the people. Chris White. Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker.

:44:28.:44:31.

With the limiting of US arms even by one sale, as well as this new

:44:32.:44:37.

evidence on cluster munitions coming to light this week, will the

:44:38.:44:42.

Secretary of State outline the circumstances under which the

:44:43.:44:46.

government would suspend a UK arms exports to Saudi Arabia, and called

:44:47.:44:52.

for an independent UN led investigation into potential

:44:53.:44:53.

breaches of international humanitarian law. If we had evidence

:44:54.:45:01.

that international humanitarian law had been breached then of course

:45:02.:45:04.

that would be a serious factor in considering whether or not to

:45:05.:45:11.

agreeing to future licences or suspending existing licences. It

:45:12.:45:15.

would also be the case that if we felt that if the Saudi authorities

:45:16.:45:18.

were not properly able to investigate allegations of this kind

:45:19.:45:22.

then, of course, we would support the call that there has already been

:45:23.:45:27.

for an independent inquiry. But the events of the last few weeks and

:45:28.:45:31.

months have shown that, thanks to our pressure, that the Saudis have

:45:32.:45:36.

been able to investigate these allegations and have, as a result,

:45:37.:45:39.

made the announcement they have made. Diana Johnson. Thank you,

:45:40.:45:46.

Madame Deputy Speaker. With our strong diplomatic relationship with

:45:47.:45:49.

Saudi Arabia and with them saying they will no longer use cluster

:45:50.:45:53.

bombs, I wonder whether it could be stressed very strongly to the

:45:54.:45:57.

Saudis, but as a gesture of good faith, this dumb at the destruction

:45:58.:46:00.

and independently verified destruction of the cluster bombs

:46:01.:46:06.

they have would go a long way in the international community to restoring

:46:07.:46:08.

some faith in what the Saudi Arabians say.

:46:09.:46:14.

I will make sure that suggestion is conveyed to the Saudi authorities.

:46:15.:46:19.

As I have said, we have already offered to help them destroy the

:46:20.:46:24.

BL755 cluster munitions, which are the only ones that we supplied to

:46:25.:46:28.

Saudi Arabia, and which we have been discussing this afternoon. Hywel

:46:29.:46:37.

Williams. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you for the statement

:46:38.:46:40.

and the prior sight of it. He was careful to say that the Saudis have

:46:41.:46:45.

said they will not use BL755 cluster munitions, British supplied once. Do

:46:46.:46:55.

they have stocks supplied by others? I am grateful to the honourable

:46:56.:46:59.

gentleman for giving me another opportunity to clarify that the

:47:00.:47:03.

study segment does relate to BL755 cluster munitions, the only ones

:47:04.:47:08.

that we sold them that have been the centre of these allegations. I'm not

:47:09.:47:13.

able to comment on whether they hold stocks of other cluster munitions.

:47:14.:47:17.

Perhaps he would allow me to write to him on that? Thank you, Madam

:47:18.:47:22.

Deputy Speaker. If the UK had ended arms exports to Saudi Arabia as some

:47:23.:47:26.

have argued, does my Right Honourable friend think that having

:47:27.:47:30.

done so, and having weak possibly irretrievably damaged our

:47:31.:47:34.

relationship with an old friend, the investigation that he is announcing

:47:35.:47:38.

the results of today will dumb and would be more like you're less

:47:39.:47:42.

likely, that the UK would have more less influence of the events on the

:47:43.:47:46.

ground in Yemen? My honourable friend makes a very good point. And

:47:47.:47:50.

we refused to sell particular arms or munitions to Saudi Arabia, our

:47:51.:47:53.

place would undoubtedly have been taken by some less scrupulous arms

:47:54.:48:02.

supplier, and who would not have pressed for the kind of

:48:03.:48:08.

investigation that we have done in this particular situation. We'd had

:48:09.:48:12.

the investigation now. We'd had confirmation from the Saudi

:48:13.:48:15.

authorities, and we have now had the result that the coalition will no

:48:16.:48:21.

longer use BL755. And finally, the prize for patients, goes to Doctor

:48:22.:48:28.

Tanya Matthias. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I declare my

:48:29.:48:31.

interest as an amnesty dumb at Amnesty International member. I

:48:32.:48:34.

welcome the fact the government will help the destruction of the

:48:35.:48:38.

stockpile. Can the Minister tell us how many BL755s are in the Saudi and

:48:39.:48:41.

will the UK Government also help the clearing of the omelettes, I believe

:48:42.:48:49.

one bomb produces 147 small bombs from the villages in Yemen? We don't

:48:50.:48:54.

have records going back right through the 1980s of exactly how

:48:55.:49:00.

many cluster munitions were sold to Saudi Arabia. We have offered to

:49:01.:49:07.

help dispose of any remaining stocks the Saudis hold. I am not able to

:49:08.:49:13.

offer UK help into a conflict zone to deal with any unexploded

:49:14.:49:22.

ordinance. My best information is that this particular munition did

:49:23.:49:32.

not explode and therefore the bomblets are still in the area but

:49:33.:49:37.

if I'm right about that I will write to the honourable member. Point of

:49:38.:49:43.

order. Point of order, today's deliberations on the statement show

:49:44.:49:46.

why it is vital we have robust Parliamentary scrutiny of UK arms

:49:47.:49:52.

exports. In that light, if you or Mr Speaker received any Nick

:49:53.:49:57.

notification of any committee attempting to withdraw the committee

:49:58.:50:00.

on arms exports control structure which exists to scrutinise UK arms

:50:01.:50:05.

exports and has done so for many years? I thank the honourable

:50:06.:50:10.

gentleman for his point of order but I think he knows as the House does,

:50:11.:50:15.

that the point that he raises is not a matter that can be addressed by

:50:16.:50:21.

me, or from the chair, but he wished to make a point, he has made it, and

:50:22.:50:25.

I'm sure that those on whose ears he wished his point to fall have heard

:50:26.:50:33.

what he had to say. Further to that point of order, and fluid. Thank

:50:34.:50:39.

you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am a member of the Foreign Affairs Select

:50:40.:50:40.

Committee -- and fluid. There was considerable pressure with

:50:41.:50:55.

visits from Saudi Arabia ministers when we were deciding our report on

:50:56.:51:03.

the Yemen and I think it's right the House should know, there are

:51:04.:51:07.

pressures going on here. In the past the arms export committee was quite

:51:08.:51:11.

strong, it revoked 50 licences in the last Parliament. It's regrouping

:51:12.:51:20.

was delayed by six months in this Parliament, and I think that speaks

:51:21.:51:26.

for itself. The Honourable Lady knows that is not a point of order.

:51:27.:51:33.

She wished to raise a point of political interest in the chamber,

:51:34.:51:37.

but it's not a point of order. I can say nothing further to it. Point of

:51:38.:51:46.

order. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I hope this is a point of

:51:47.:51:51.

order and it is a different matter entirely. Today I tried to submit an

:51:52.:51:56.

urgent question on the recall of the Northern Ireland Assembly, which was

:51:57.:51:59.

debating a motion of no confidence on the First Minister. But could the

:52:00.:52:06.

Speaker explained, maybe at a later time, why the question wasn't

:52:07.:52:10.

selected, as the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland does have a

:52:11.:52:14.

responsibility for political stability in Northern Ireland,

:52:15.:52:17.

especially at such times of crisis and failure of the executive. I

:52:18.:52:23.

appreciate the point which the honourable gentleman is making and

:52:24.:52:26.

there is a matter about which he and other members may well be concerned.

:52:27.:52:32.

But I absolutely cannot come absolutely cannot address that point

:52:33.:52:36.

from the chair here in the chamber, nor will Mr Speaker give, now or at

:52:37.:52:40.

any time, an explanation as to why he has or has not granted an urgent

:52:41.:52:46.

question. That is not a matter that should be brought up in the chamber

:52:47.:52:50.

and not a matter that can be disclosed from the chair. Further to

:52:51.:52:57.

the further points of order that were not... Further to the previous

:52:58.:53:04.

almost points of order... I will give the honourable gentleman the

:53:05.:53:07.

benefit of the doubt that this might be a point of order. Doctor Julian

:53:08.:53:12.

Lewis. I think this one might actually be a point of order

:53:13.:53:16.

because, although the Defence Select Committee has not withdrawn from the

:53:17.:53:20.

committees on arms export controls, I am aware of the serious concern

:53:21.:53:27.

caused by a leakage of a draft report that those committees had

:53:28.:53:33.

drawn up. Would she agree with me that it is of absolute importance

:53:34.:53:38.

that if select committees, or quarter apartheid composite

:53:39.:53:41.

committees like this are to function, they should be no question

:53:42.:53:46.

of draft reports being late for political purposes as happened in

:53:47.:53:52.

that case? That may or may not be a point of order as far as order in

:53:53.:53:58.

the chamber is concerned. But it is a point about which Mr Speaker will

:53:59.:54:04.

be concerned and we should all be extremely concerned because the

:54:05.:54:07.

leaking of reports underlines the work of the committee is working

:54:08.:54:14.

hard on those reports. It is not honourable behaviour becoming of

:54:15.:54:20.

honourable members of this House to leaked reports. Point of order.

:54:21.:54:29.

Following on that last point of order, would the Madame Deputy

:54:30.:54:35.

Speaker clarify whether a committee, any committee of this House, should

:54:36.:54:42.

be disbanded if there is a leak? Now that is not a point of order. It is

:54:43.:54:51.

not for me, it is not for the chair to opine on whether a committee

:54:52.:54:54.

should or should not in any particular circumstance be

:54:55.:55:00.

disbanded. It is a matter which I'm sure honourable members will address

:55:01.:55:04.

in another forum in another way and the honourable gentleman has made

:55:05.:55:11.

his point. Point of order, Sir. I don't want to prolong this

:55:12.:55:14.

discussion but I wonder given the points of order we have had in the

:55:15.:55:17.

chamber with regards to the committee on arms exports control,

:55:18.:55:20.

if there is anybody yourself or Mr Speaker cousin Dominic's good office

:55:21.:55:28.

could do -- Mr Speaker's good office could do for the benefit of our

:55:29.:55:31.

constituents because they do want a robust arms and export control in

:55:32.:55:35.

this House. The honourable gentleman makes a very pale stomach fair point

:55:36.:55:42.

but it is out with the competence of Mr Speaker, not many things are out

:55:43.:55:45.

the competence of Mr Speaker but it is out with the absence of Mr

:55:46.:55:52.

Speaker to require any action by the Chairman of Committees. However,

:55:53.:55:54.

once again, the honourable gentleman has made his point and I am quite

:55:55.:55:59.

sure that the chairman of the relevant committees will have heard

:56:00.:56:04.

the concerns in the House and will act accordingly.

:56:05.:56:13.

If there are no more further points of order, or non-points of order, we

:56:14.:56:18.

now come to the general debate on exiting the EU and science and

:56:19.:56:22.

research. And I called Joe Johnson to

:56:23.:56:24.

I'm pleased to Er introduce today's debate about science and research.

:56:25.:56:30.

This is one of a number of debates about our exit from the EU. It's

:56:31.:56:33.

important we continue to give members of this House the

:56:34.:56:37.

opportunities to discuss and debate Brexit and the impact on our

:56:38.:56:42.

country. I'd like to say up front that the UK's science base is not

:56:43.:56:46.

only one of this country's most impressive national achievements,

:56:47.:56:50.

but it is also one of the strongest in the world. Within the G 7, we

:56:51.:56:54.

have the most productive science base in terms of papers and

:56:55.:57:01.

citations per unit of GDP. With our world class universities, four of

:57:02.:57:05.

which in the wore's top ten, and 18 in the world's top 100, we have a

:57:06.:57:10.

long established system which supports and attracts the brightest

:57:11.:57:14.

minds throughout their career and enables them to generate high

:57:15.:57:17.

quality research. With less than 1% of the global population and just

:57:18.:57:23.

over 3% of global R spend the UK produces almost a fifth of the most

:57:24.:57:29.

highly cited research articles. The benefits for our economy are very

:57:30.:57:33.

real. The World Economic Forum ranks the UK among the top four nations in

:57:34.:57:38.

the worlingd for university industry collaboration in R and ranking

:57:39.:57:42.

third in the global innovation index in 2016. If honourable members want

:57:43.:57:48.

a specific example, they might look at the space sector, a high growth,

:57:49.:57:53.

high productivity industry that show cases UK research strengths in a

:57:54.:57:59.

global market. Earlier this month, at the European Space Agency council

:58:00.:58:03.

of ministers, the Government showed its confidence by investing an extra

:58:04.:58:09.

1. 4 billion in ISA so we support the world class science and

:58:10.:58:12.

innovation under-Pinocheting this high growth sector of the economy.

:58:13.:58:17.

Our investment of 170 million euros in the exploration programme will

:58:18.:58:23.

bring tangible benefits ensuring that the exo-Mars Rover, being built

:58:24.:58:26.

in Stevenage is completed and launched. Thanks to our investments,

:58:27.:58:31.

we now lead the research and innovation programmes in ISA for

:58:32.:58:35.

telecoms, earth observation and navigation, positioning of the UK to

:58:36.:58:39.

seize opportunities in the growing markets. I also signed a new MOU

:58:40.:58:46.

with ISA to ensure their European centre for space applications and

:58:47.:58:51.

telecommunications, which is a fast growing space cluster in

:58:52.:58:56.

Oxfordshire, is the focus for the commercial exploitation of space

:58:57.:58:59.

datament these and early investments are delivering results. The space

:59:00.:59:03.

sector in this country is growing strongly, now worth 13. ?13.7

:59:04.:59:09.

billion a year to the UK economy, employing just under 40,000 people

:59:10.:59:12.

and we are ambitious for it. We want to increase our share in the global

:59:13.:59:20.

sector to 10% by 2030, creating 100,000 new jobs. Space is one of a

:59:21.:59:25.

number of success stories that are, in part, due to government

:59:26.:59:28.

investments in collaborative structures with international

:59:29.:59:30.

partners in Europe and around the world. A story we plan to continue

:59:31.:59:35.

writing long after we've left the European Union.

:59:36.:59:40.

The minister just mentions collaboration with EU partners and

:59:41.:59:44.

around the world. I represent a university that has given us Dolly

:59:45.:59:52.

the sheep and Higgs Bosun. The only reason those things are associated

:59:53.:59:54.

with the University of Edinburgh is because they were able to lead these

:59:55.:59:59.

clob aTiff projects. We're hearing already That Is The Spirit because

:00:00.:00:05.

of -- that because of Brexit that may not continue to happen. Will the

:00:06.:00:12.

minister do all he can to ensure universities are protected in terms

:00:13.:00:16.

of exiting the European Union? That's an important point. The

:00:17.:00:21.

Government has given assurances to UK institutions and institutions

:00:22.:00:25.

across the European Union that we in the UK remain full members of the

:00:26.:00:30.

European Union and we are eligible to lead European bids and compete

:00:31.:00:34.

successfully for competitively bid for funding streams. We continue to

:00:35.:00:37.

do so. We want institutions such as the one he represents in Edinburgh

:00:38.:00:41.

to continue to be successful in the way it has been in the past. This

:00:42.:00:47.

Government recognises that our world leading science and research must be

:00:48.:00:51.

at the very heart of this Government's industrial strategy. We

:00:52.:00:55.

are matching rhetoric with resources. At the Autumn Statement,

:00:56.:00:59.

the Chancellor announced an additional ?2 billion per year for

:01:00.:01:06.

R by 2021. This is the single biggest uplift in research and

:01:07.:01:08.

innovation spending in decades and it is an opportunity for us to make

:01:09.:01:13.

Britain in the Prime Minister's words "the global go-to place for

:01:14.:01:19.

scientists, innovators and tech investors". I thank my honourable

:01:20.:01:24.

friend, the Science Minister, for giving way. He's making an important

:01:25.:01:28.

point. Does he agree that investment and commitment also builds

:01:29.:01:32.

confidence with business and it's to be noted that AstraZeneca opened a

:01:33.:01:38.

?120 million site which demonstrates their commitment to the UK economy

:01:39.:01:41.

because of the support he rightly highlights? My honourable friend is

:01:42.:01:45.

exactly right. This does certainly boost not only our research

:01:46.:01:49.

community's confidence but that of the business community, which can

:01:50.:01:53.

see we are putting innovation at the very heart of our industrial

:01:54.:01:57.

strategy. We are, because for every pound of public investment in

:01:58.:02:02.

research, we get back over ?7 of net economic benefit, both at local and

:02:03.:02:06.

national level. When we invest in research, we invest in our wider

:02:07.:02:10.

prosperity. I thank the minister for giving way. Whilst the announcement

:02:11.:02:15.

by the Chancellor that Government will continue to fund EU projects

:02:16.:02:20.

such as Horizon 2020, was very welcome, but making sure that our

:02:21.:02:25.

universities continue to collaborate is still very important. What

:02:26.:02:29.

further measures will he make to ensure this stays in place? Our

:02:30.:02:37.

universities are successful in winning European funding bids. In

:02:38.:02:43.

fact, we have the top four slots of all European institutions in London

:02:44.:02:50.

and Oxford, Cambridge and Imperial ucl in terms of the share of

:02:51.:02:57.

participation. That underscores the strengths of our university system

:02:58.:03:01.

and we want them to continue to be able to bid successfully for as long

:03:02.:03:05.

as we're members of the European Union. We want this level of

:03:06.:03:08.

economic benefit to continue long after we leave the EU, which is why

:03:09.:03:12.

we're setting up the industrial strategy challenge fund. It will

:03:13.:03:17.

back priority technologies like robotics and Bayeux technology,

:03:18.:03:20.

where -- bio technology, where just as in the space sector, the UK has

:03:21.:03:26.

the potential to return strengths into a commercial lead. Though our

:03:27.:03:32.

research and innovation system is world leading, we are working to

:03:33.:03:35.

ensure it stays there to be even more effective. We are implementing

:03:36.:03:40.

the recommendation that's we should establish a single strategic

:03:41.:03:43.

research and innovation funding body, UK research and innovation,

:03:44.:03:48.

which will be a strong and unified voice, championing UK research and

:03:49.:03:51.

innovation nationally and internationally. For the UK's

:03:52.:03:54.

research base, the EU is important, of course, but it is not the only

:03:55.:04:00.

game in town. The UK has been a place of learning for many of the

:04:01.:04:05.

EU's member states even existed. Some of our universities have been

:04:06.:04:09.

centres of excellence for nearly a millennium. The UK will continue to

:04:10.:04:15.

play a leading role in major, non--EU research collaborations that

:04:16.:04:21.

take place here from CERN in Switzerland. We are a major partner

:04:22.:04:29.

the world's largest radio telescope. And in the scientific collaboration,

:04:30.:04:33.

it was UK researchers working with their counterparts who made the

:04:34.:04:36.

dramatic gravitational waves discovery possible. All that said,

:04:37.:04:42.

it will not be lost on many honourable members of this House

:04:43.:04:45.

that there are many valuable interactions between UK and EU

:04:46.:04:49.

scientific institutions. We work closely with our European neighbours

:04:50.:04:54.

on issues which affect our planet as well as everyone on it. I'm grateful

:04:55.:05:00.

to the minister for giving way. The Chancellor has promised to guarantee

:05:01.:05:09.

projects which win funds from Horizon 2020 before we leave the EU.

:05:10.:05:14.

What he's done is set two further tests for giving guarantees, that

:05:15.:05:16.

projects are good value for money and that they're in line with

:05:17.:05:23.

domestic strategic priorities. It's not clear how at the time that

:05:24.:05:30.

researchers apply for their Horizon 2020 they know from Government

:05:31.:05:35.

departments whether it is good value for money and in line with the

:05:36.:05:40.

Government's strategic priorities. So could the minister please explain

:05:41.:05:43.

not just for the benefit of the House, but for the benefit of the

:05:44.:05:47.

academics, what they're supposed to do to meet the Chancellor's

:05:48.:05:52.

criteria? The Chancellor's August 13 statement was an extremely important

:05:53.:05:57.

one, which has to a very great degree helped put aside the

:05:58.:06:01.

uncertainty that the science and research community had over its

:06:02.:06:06.

ability to participate in competitively-won funding streams.

:06:07.:06:09.

The treasure has made clear it would be good for guaranteeing payments

:06:10.:06:12.

that fall due to UK institutions after the moment of Brexit and that

:06:13.:06:18.

has significantly helped reassure our scientists and researchers that

:06:19.:06:23.

they can confidently bid for funding streams in the months ahead. It is

:06:24.:06:28.

not in our interest to turn away from our long standing partnerships.

:06:29.:06:32.

This message was reinforced by the Prime Minister who has stated that

:06:33.:06:36.

the Government is committed to a positive outcome for UK science, as

:06:37.:06:40.

we exit the European Union. Our priority in this respect can be

:06:41.:06:45.

broken down into two core issues - continuity in international research

:06:46.:06:49.

collaboration and maintenance of the factors that make the UK location of

:06:50.:06:52.

choice for some of the best minds on the planet. With regard to a smooth

:06:53.:06:58.

departure from the EU, the two core inputs into these issues are funding

:06:59.:07:04.

and people. On funding, as I've just said, the Chancellor announced in

:07:05.:07:11.

August that the Treasury will guarantee all successful

:07:12.:07:15.

competitively bid for EU research funding applied for before the UK

:07:16.:07:20.

leaves the EU. This means UK participants and international

:07:21.:07:22.

partners can be confident that they will have the funding necessary

:07:23.:07:28.

throughout the life of their horizon 2020 fundling project. The UK as

:07:29.:07:34.

honourable members will know has benefitted strongly from Horizon

:07:35.:07:39.

2020 with over 5,2000 participations and 2. 6 billion euros of funding

:07:40.:07:43.

support since 2014. We are top of the table with regard to

:07:44.:07:46.

participations and second only to Germany in terms of funding won. In

:07:47.:07:52.

addition to underwriting the competitively bid for research

:07:53.:07:55.

funding, the Chancellor has confirmed that funding will be

:07:56.:07:59.

guaranteed for structural and investment fund project, signed

:08:00.:08:03.

before the UK departs the EU. We have worked closely with the

:08:04.:08:08.

European Commission to provide swift reassurances. The commissioner

:08:09.:08:10.

stated immediately after the referendum that as long as the UK is

:08:11.:08:15.

a member of the European Union, EU law continues to apply and we retain

:08:16.:08:19.

all our rights and obligations as a member state. Helping us to

:08:20.:08:24.

reinforce the message that we still have the same terms of access to

:08:25.:08:29.

European research funding, including Horizon to 20, for as long as we are

:08:30.:08:34.

a member of the EU. Turning to people, we recognise the very

:08:35.:08:37.

significant contribution to our research base made by non-UK EU

:08:38.:08:42.

nationals. The Prime Minister earlier today again made clear that

:08:43.:08:46.

during negotiations she wants to protect the status of EU nationals

:08:47.:08:50.

already living here as a global hub for research excellence, we will

:08:51.:08:54.

always welcome the best and the brightest. Others are concerned

:08:55.:08:59.

about EU national students and the rules regarding their student loans

:09:00.:09:02.

from the Student Loans Company. I would like to reassure the House

:09:03.:09:06.

that they are unchanged and remain in force. I will give way. Thank you

:09:07.:09:14.

very much. The minister is making a very eloquent description of a

:09:15.:09:18.

situation that we currently have. But I'm thinking post-Brexit. The

:09:19.:09:24.

key question I think is this: Does the Government intend to seek

:09:25.:09:28.

associate country status for Horizon 2020? That would give us some

:09:29.:09:33.

continuity? These are important questions, which the honourable

:09:34.:09:37.

member, my honourable friend will understand are clearly going to form

:09:38.:09:41.

an important part of the overall discussions around our future

:09:42.:09:47.

relations with the EU. We recognise the benefits of collaboration with

:09:48.:09:51.

European parters in and we will seek obviously to ensure that we can

:09:52.:09:55.

continue to derive strong collaboration arrangements all

:09:56.:09:58.

around the world. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. He

:09:59.:10:03.

has been a very strong advocate for our university sector since he took

:10:04.:10:09.

up the post. One of the key concerns my own university has, and others

:10:10.:10:12.

across the country, he probably knows what I'm about to say in

:10:13.:10:16.

relation to international student numbers, given the opportunities

:10:17.:10:19.

available to us in a post Brexit world, we have to be better

:10:20.:10:22.

communicating what immigration looks like in our country. For me and

:10:23.:10:26.

pretty much most universities across the country, we need to split up our

:10:27.:10:29.

international student numbers from overall immigration figures. It's

:10:30.:10:32.

got the support of the public by 70%. I hope he'll agree upon that

:10:33.:10:39.

point. Whenever I get the chance, I reiterate that we welcome

:10:40.:10:41.

international students and value the contribution that they make to our

:10:42.:10:46.

universities and to our economy. I'm pleased to be able to re-it rate

:10:47.:10:52.

there's no cap on the number of international students to come and

:10:53.:10:56.

study here and no plan to introduce one. It's important that we make

:10:57.:11:00.

clear that EU students continue to be able to access our loan book and

:11:01.:11:05.

continue to be able to come here to study on home fee status, just as

:11:06.:11:09.

domestic UK students. We've been very quick as a Government to make

:11:10.:11:14.

that clear to students applying in 2016/17 and in 2017/18. We will

:11:15.:11:21.

decide the policy for the 2018/19 year in plenty of time for the start

:11:22.:11:23.

of that application process. I am grateful to the Minister, can I

:11:24.:11:35.

come back to the point raised by the chair of the Select Committee about

:11:36.:11:39.

non-EU nationals who made a reluctant, more reluctant than they

:11:40.:11:43.

were, to come to this country for as long as our international

:11:44.:11:45.

relationships with the rest of the EU are still unclear? As I said, we

:11:46.:11:53.

want to encourage international students to come to the UK. They

:11:54.:11:57.

bring enormous benefits to our universities and to our economy and

:11:58.:12:01.

we have no plans to introduce a capital sum we have a great higher

:12:02.:12:04.

education system in the country and the fact we attract the second

:12:05.:12:08.

largest group of international students of any country in the world

:12:09.:12:12.

is a testament to the quality of our institutions, that will continue

:12:13.:12:16.

after Brexit. I will give way one last time. I am grateful for giving

:12:17.:12:23.

way. Will he tell us how much it costs to fund the grants, sorry, the

:12:24.:12:30.

loans which EU students are entitled to, unlike non-EU students who pay

:12:31.:12:34.

the full fee and help subsidise the rest of us, given that only 16% are

:12:35.:12:39.

currently repaying their loans at present? Should that cost not be

:12:40.:12:46.

taken into account when we talk about the costs and benefits of

:12:47.:12:49.

university education in this country?

:12:50.:12:52.

I thank my Right Honourable friend for his intervention. Of course we

:12:53.:12:58.

weigh up the cost of enabling EU students to have access to our alone

:12:59.:13:03.

book, which is only right they have access to as long as we are a member

:13:04.:13:07.

of the European Union. Additional costs thereafter, after Brexit, will

:13:08.:13:13.

be taken into account as we put in place arrangements for EU students

:13:14.:13:17.

for the longer term. But for the time being while we are still

:13:18.:13:21.

members of the European Union they have a right to come here and access

:13:22.:13:24.

higher education in this country as home fees students do and have

:13:25.:13:30.

access to our student loan book. I will let my honourable friend come

:13:31.:13:34.

in. I'm pleased to hear what the minister has to say about students

:13:35.:13:39.

in the UK. Has he had any indication from his interlocutors in the rest

:13:40.:13:44.

of Europe about the status of the increasing number of British school

:13:45.:13:47.

leavers who wish to study in European countries, and the

:13:48.:13:51.

relatively favourable fees they are expected to pay? Well, we wish more

:13:52.:13:59.

UK students took the opportunities that are available to them to study

:14:00.:14:06.

overseas. International mobility is a great life enhancer, it improves

:14:07.:14:10.

employability, and it's something which we want to encourage and we

:14:11.:14:14.

are encouraging through programmes promoted by the British Council,

:14:15.:14:20.

such as generation UK to India generation UK to China, which are

:14:21.:14:25.

valuable problems we want to -- programmes we want to encourage in

:14:26.:14:29.

the future. In my stakeholder working group on EU exit for

:14:30.:14:32.

universities, research and innovation, I was impressed with the

:14:33.:14:36.

positive outward looking approach of key decision makers within the UK

:14:37.:14:40.

research and innovation community. As we prepare for the negotiations

:14:41.:14:44.

ahead, no stone can be left unturned in learning about the opportunities

:14:45.:14:48.

ahead for the UK. If we are to win in the global marketplace and we

:14:49.:14:52.

must win the global battle for talent. Britain has always been one

:14:53.:14:58.

of the most welcoming places in the world for brilliant minds and it

:14:59.:15:00.

will remain so. Madam Deputy Speaker, throughout our exit of the

:15:01.:15:03.

European Union we will continue to build on our ambitious global

:15:04.:15:06.

partnerships, including with our friends in the EU. We will put the

:15:07.:15:11.

UK at the forefront of international research on emerging global

:15:12.:15:14.

challenges and continue to make sure UK researchers have access to and

:15:15.:15:19.

leadership of world-class research facilities. We will continue to do

:15:20.:15:22.

everything we can to make sure that our Price -- proud history as prime

:15:23.:15:30.

place. The question is, this House has considered exiting the EU and

:15:31.:15:38.

science and research. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The American

:15:39.:15:44.

physicist called science the engine of prosperity and that is certainly

:15:45.:15:51.

true for us in the United Kingdom. In 2015 then have -- the campaign

:15:52.:15:57.

for science and engineering found that for every ?1 spent by the

:15:58.:16:00.

government on research and develop and we got back 30p each and every

:16:01.:16:05.

year in perpetuity on that investment. I am a strong believer

:16:06.:16:11.

in science for science's sake. I think it is part of our innate

:16:12.:16:18.

humanity to seek to push forward the bounds of knowledge. But we must

:16:19.:16:22.

also recognise that as far as the UK economy is concerned, science

:16:23.:16:26.

investment is the gift that keeps on giving. Are a world-renowned science

:16:27.:16:33.

sector plays a huge role in economic growth and the creation of jobs. 20%

:16:34.:16:40.

of the UK workforce are employed in science roles and these are high

:16:41.:16:46.

skilled, well-paid jobs where employees earn 40% more than the

:16:47.:16:52.

average wage. The UK punches above its weight on science, as the

:16:53.:16:59.

Minister said, we represent just 0.9% of the global population but we

:17:00.:17:07.

produce a staggering 16% of the world's most significant research

:17:08.:17:10.

citations. We are the home of Stephen Hawking, the discoverer of

:17:11.:17:17.

the Higgs boson, Peter Higgs, who I'm proud to say may have been at

:17:18.:17:21.

Edinburgh University but was born in else sick in Newcastle. But despite

:17:22.:17:29.

this proud history we are lagging behind on investment. Since 2012 UK

:17:30.:17:37.

public sector spending on science is falling to below 0.5% of our GDP.

:17:38.:17:46.

The lowest level of any G8 country. The UK has long been known for its

:17:47.:17:51.

research and development but we are at risk of losing that reputation

:17:52.:17:56.

and the rewards it reeks for our economy and jobs if the government

:17:57.:18:02.

refuses to support science through Brexit. The UK world leading

:18:03.:18:11.

position in technology, research and development, is thanks in part to

:18:12.:18:16.

our integration with and the contribution of our soon-to-be

:18:17.:18:18.

ex-partners in the European Union. The Minister mentioned 2020. One in

:18:19.:18:29.

every ?6 spent on science by the European Union is spent here in the

:18:30.:18:34.

United Kingdom. I know in my own constituency scientists not only

:18:35.:18:39.

benefit from EU funding, but from the highly skilled researchers and

:18:40.:18:45.

scientists it brings with us. So Newcastle University, Madam Deputy

:18:46.:18:49.

Speaker, employs nearly 600 staff from different European countries.

:18:50.:18:56.

European Union funding allows them to retain and attract talented

:18:57.:19:00.

researchers through prestigious European research council grants,

:19:01.:19:10.

such as the individual fellows, 50 of which are hosted by Newcastle

:19:11.:19:15.

University, equating to 11 million in research funding terms. Some of

:19:16.:19:20.

Newcastle's leading research centres would not be possible without

:19:21.:19:26.

European Union staff, for example the John Walton muscular dystrophy

:19:27.:19:30.

research team which pioneers treatment for children with muscular

:19:31.:19:39.

dystrophy. More than 30% of staff are European and three of its four

:19:40.:19:44.

lead academics from the European Union. Many re-honourable and Right

:19:45.:19:47.

Honourable member is will have similar examples in their own

:19:48.:19:54.

constituencies. -- honourable. Leaving the EU presents our science

:19:55.:19:57.

and research sectors with numerous challenges around process, timing,

:19:58.:20:04.

funds, skills, creativity and resources. Challenges the government

:20:05.:20:08.

has a duty to address. But as highlighted in the Science and

:20:09.:20:14.

Technology Committee's most recent report, the Government's

:20:15.:20:16.

communication, and the Minister's speech notwithstanding, over its

:20:17.:20:21.

Brexit and science strategy has been woefully insufficient. Why, Madam

:20:22.:20:28.

Deputy Speaker, is science not a part of the Government's Brexit

:20:29.:20:34.

strategy? It is at the heart of our economy. The Government says it will

:20:35.:20:40.

match funding until the horizon 2020 programme expires but this suggests

:20:41.:20:43.

it is planning to withdraw from the scheme thereafter, one which the

:20:44.:20:52.

Royal Society has estimated accounts for 22.2% of global research

:20:53.:20:56.

programmes, which is higher, Madam Deputy Speaker, than either China or

:20:57.:21:01.

the US's contribution to global research. Why would we seek to

:21:02.:21:09.

withdraw from such a scheme? We receive significantly more from it

:21:10.:21:14.

and we put in, 8.8 billion euros between 2007 and 2013, as against

:21:15.:21:18.

5.4 billion that we paid in. And we do not have to lose access to the

:21:19.:21:27.

framework programmes. There are 13 non-member states currently enjoying

:21:28.:21:31.

associated country status which gives them full access to Horizon

:21:32.:21:36.

2020 funding and the same status as member states. The benefits of

:21:37.:21:42.

involvement with European Union programmes are not confined to

:21:43.:21:48.

funding. Contrary to the picture painted by many in the Leave

:21:49.:21:54.

campaign, EU science and technology institutions actually reduce

:21:55.:21:56.

bureaucracy and streamline administration processes. For

:21:57.:22:00.

example, preventing work being done in different labs, from Dummett

:22:01.:22:07.

preventing the same work being done in different labs, spreading good

:22:08.:22:10.

practice among the European scientific community and harmonising

:22:11.:22:14.

clinical trial regulations. The latter, Madam Deputy Speaker, is

:22:15.:22:18.

absolutely critical for the diffusion and adoption of innovative

:22:19.:22:23.

new treatments, upon which many lives depend. In addition,

:22:24.:22:31.

cross-border and cross discipline collaboration has benefits for

:22:32.:22:33.

innovation and creativity which cannot be expressed in pounds,

:22:34.:22:41.

shillings and pence, or in euros. However, if the Government pursues

:22:42.:22:46.

its commitment to ending existing European Union Freedom of movement

:22:47.:22:50.

arrangements these benefits will be jeopardise. In 2014 Switzerland held

:22:51.:22:57.

a referendum blocking free movement for Croatian nationals, which

:22:58.:23:03.

directly led to the suspension from Horizon 2020. So, Madam Deputy

:23:04.:23:09.

Speaker, the Conservatives cannot call themselves the party of

:23:10.:23:15.

business when actively working to undermine our science and technology

:23:16.:23:21.

sectors. The Prime Minister's refusal to reassure European Union

:23:22.:23:28.

nationals living here that they will continue to be able to do so...

:23:29.:23:36.

Astounding, and the Home Secretary's reported plans to halve student fees

:23:37.:23:40.

are members, numbers, highlight their failure to recognise the

:23:41.:23:45.

potency of British scientific research in the wider British

:23:46.:23:50.

economy. We are entering a fourth Industrial Revolution. Technology

:23:51.:23:54.

advancement is central to the way in which we work. But the Government

:23:55.:24:00.

seeks to curtail our access to the brightest and best in science, as

:24:01.:24:06.

well as curtailing the opportunity for our own citizens to work and

:24:07.:24:15.

study abroad. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Conservative current policy is

:24:16.:24:17.

more about short-term political point scoring than there are now

:24:18.:24:23.

forgotten long-term economic plan. We don't hear so much about that now

:24:24.:24:29.

today, do we? Indeed, as the Vice Chancellor of one of our leading

:24:30.:24:31.

universities recently said, on student visas politics is trumping

:24:32.:24:41.

economics. Of course the Tories have form here. Under the last Tory

:24:42.:24:45.

government science spending was squeezed. Indeed, the campaign Save

:24:46.:24:53.

British Science was launched in 1986 in response to the Ben Thatcher

:24:54.:24:56.

Government's woeful record on science and research. -- then

:24:57.:25:03.

Thatcher government. Labour doubled the science budget from 1.3 billion

:25:04.:25:12.

up to 3.4 billion, reaching almost 4 billion by 2,010. Madam Deputy

:25:13.:25:18.

Speaker, save British science had to be renamed the campaign for British

:25:19.:25:21.

science and engineering because British science had been saved by

:25:22.:25:26.

Labour. So, the boost to the research and development budget in

:25:27.:25:29.

the Autumn Statement is widely welcomed. But we must set it against

:25:30.:25:37.

a backdrop of six years of subsistence spending. Not only are

:25:38.:25:40.

we now the lowest funder of science out of any G8 country, but our

:25:41.:25:47.

spending as a proportion of GDP has fallen to its lowest point in 20

:25:48.:26:00.

years. This increase in forecasting expenditure assumes all other

:26:01.:26:03.

spending commitments for science and research will remain in place, safe

:26:04.:26:07.

from sweeping Conservative cuts, and given the party's previous actions,

:26:08.:26:13.

I believe we should remember the motto of the world's oldest

:26:14.:26:17.

scientific Institute, the Royals at a week, which is" take nobody's word

:26:18.:26:22.

for it." LAUGHTER

:26:23.:26:28.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I began by saying how important science and

:26:29.:26:32.

research is to our economy and that's why today's debate is so

:26:33.:26:38.

critical. Science provides the inventions and the infrastructure

:26:39.:26:43.

which propels our industry forward. It uncovers the challenges that we

:26:44.:26:47.

face today and provides our industries with a vision for the

:26:48.:26:51.

future. We in the Labour Party recognise that in order to have an

:26:52.:26:56.

industrial strategy that works for each and every member of our

:26:57.:27:00.

society, a thriving science community is absolutely key. I ask

:27:01.:27:09.

the Secretary of State last week if he would give the UK economy the

:27:10.:27:14.

Christmas present it deserves an industrial strategy. Sadly, it that

:27:15.:27:18.

Santa's elves are nowhere ready on this one. As my Right Honourable

:27:19.:27:24.

friend, the Shadow Secretary of State for business, has said, we

:27:25.:27:30.

believe that industrial strategy should be mission orientated. One of

:27:31.:27:37.

the roles of public spending, when it is mission orientated, is to lay

:27:38.:27:41.

down the foundation of new opportunities which then galvanise

:27:42.:27:45.

businesses, the private sector, to invest. The world's leading

:27:46.:27:54.

economist on mission orientated innovation has shown how business

:27:55.:28:00.

investment should not be assumed but created by ambitious public

:28:01.:28:01.

investment policies. No matter how excited businesses

:28:02.:28:12.

get, they will only invest when there is a potential market.

:28:13.:28:15.

Government can help create new markets and enlarge existing ones

:28:16.:28:21.

through procurement and critically, through trade agreements. The

:28:22.:28:25.

European Union is possibly the most successful trade agreement in

:28:26.:28:30.

history. It has benefitted British companies for decades. 44% of UK

:28:31.:28:39.

goods and services went to the European Union in 2015. I'm most

:28:40.:28:44.

grateful to the honourable lady for giving way. She said the European

:28:45.:28:48.

Union was the most successful trade agreement in history. Now for a

:28:49.:28:53.

generation or so, that was certainly true, does it not worry her, that

:28:54.:28:57.

it's now the slowest growing economic block in the world and that

:28:58.:29:01.

44% that she's just quoted continues to fall, it's fallen more than ten

:29:02.:29:09.

points over the last few years? I thank the honourable gentleman for

:29:10.:29:13.

that contribution. I'm glad he agrees with me that the European

:29:14.:29:17.

Union was the most successful trade agreement in history. His points

:29:18.:29:25.

regarding the economic growth of the European Union do not - it's still

:29:26.:29:29.

one of the largest and most successful economies in the world.

:29:30.:29:35.

It's still a huge market for our goods and services. It has some of

:29:36.:29:39.

the richest people in the world and whilst economic growth may have been

:29:40.:29:46.

slow over the last, over the last few years, it still represents a

:29:47.:29:49.

huge opportunity. I hope he would agree with me, one of the biggest

:29:50.:29:54.

trading blocks in the world. We should obviously be looking outside

:29:55.:29:58.

the European Union for trade opportunities, but we need to be

:29:59.:30:01.

trading with the European Union. There are a lot of people who buy a

:30:02.:30:05.

lot of our goods who need to continue to buy them. It's

:30:06.:30:10.

absolutely clear that a hard Brexit would reduce the size of this market

:30:11.:30:16.

for British companies. On top of that, broach it will reduce the

:30:17.:30:21.

European Union financed research and development investments. So that

:30:22.:30:27.

means that an existing problem that we have in this country, low private

:30:28.:30:33.

sector investment in research, may get worse because the markets for

:30:34.:30:38.

goods will be smaller. Ironically, for a Government which claims to be

:30:39.:30:44.

focussed on reducing the public debt, though we know public debt has

:30:45.:30:47.

gone up hugely under this Government, given this claim, it's

:30:48.:30:54.

ironic that by reducing private investment, public investment in

:30:55.:30:57.

research and investment will need to take more of the strain. We in the

:30:58.:31:01.

Labour Party believe in public investment. But it shouldn't make up

:31:02.:31:05.

for a lack of private sector investment. We have committed to

:31:06.:31:11.

raising total investment in research and development and science to 3%.

:31:12.:31:15.

But we expect the private sector to do its bit. I urge the minister to

:31:16.:31:23.

try and get this right for British science. If not, once again, the

:31:24.:31:30.

next Labour Government will have to make up for the economic scientific

:31:31.:31:34.

and social mess a Tory Government has left behind. Madam Deputy

:31:35.:31:43.

Speaker, the history of these aisles, speaks of a people with a

:31:44.:31:49.

verve for technological and scientific endeavour. We ask that

:31:50.:31:54.

Government provides the conditions for continued investigation and

:31:55.:31:59.

inquiry. We cannot have an economy that relies on cheap and insecure

:32:00.:32:06.

labour. A high-tech, knowledge-intensive economy must be

:32:07.:32:10.

Britain's future. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Government and the

:32:11.:32:15.

people of Britain cannot afford to suffocate our sciences in the smoke

:32:16.:32:21.

of Brexit. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

:32:22.:32:26.

Thank you for calling me so early in this very important debate. Can I

:32:27.:32:31.

also thank the Government for putting aside Government time to

:32:32.:32:36.

discuss this very important issue and for agreeing to tag the recently

:32:37.:32:40.

published science and technology committee report, leaving the EU

:32:41.:32:44.

implications and opportunities for science and research. I am very

:32:45.:32:48.

appreciative. Now before I turn to the report Madam Deputy Speaker, and

:32:49.:32:52.

its obvious relevance to this debate, as this is the first time

:32:53.:32:54.

I've had the opportunity to address the House since my election as chair

:32:55.:32:59.

of the science and technology committee, can I place on record my

:33:00.:33:04.

gratitude to the House for electing me to this important role. I hope

:33:05.:33:09.

that I can live up to the example set by my predecessors. I would like

:33:10.:33:13.

to take this opportunity to pay tribute to my immediate predecessor,

:33:14.:33:19.

the honourable member for her stewardship of the committee over

:33:20.:33:25.

the last 15 or so months. She moved very quickly back in June to launch

:33:26.:33:33.

the report and I think its findings will inform today's debate. But I

:33:34.:33:39.

also would like to pay tribute to the interim chair the honourable

:33:40.:33:42.

member for Twickenham who stepped into the breach prior to my

:33:43.:33:45.

election. I'm very grateful to her as well. I'd like to thank the

:33:46.:33:50.

clerks and staff of the committee for all their support and guidance

:33:51.:33:56.

in these first few months and finally, as finally as part of the

:33:57.:33:59.

thank yous Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to thank the more than

:34:00.:34:03.

270 individuals and organisations who took time to provide written

:34:04.:34:09.

evidence to the committee's call for evidence in the preparation of this

:34:10.:34:15.

report. Now I had hoped to talk a bit about Brexit itself, but because

:34:16.:34:18.

time is short and I can see there is a great deal of interest in this

:34:19.:34:22.

debate, I'm going to leave that for another time. Just to state that

:34:23.:34:26.

Brexit was not about science. It was one of the casualties along with

:34:27.:34:30.

many other sectors that got caught up in a much bigger argument. So to

:34:31.:34:38.

our report. As we've heard, it identifies five key themes in

:34:39.:34:40.

relation to the concerns of the science and research community. All

:34:41.:34:44.

of which I expect will feature and have already done so, somewhere in

:34:45.:34:49.

honourable members' contributions this evening. These are: Funding,

:34:50.:34:56.

people, collaboration, leader and influence, regulation and finally

:34:57.:34:59.

facilities. I'll talk properly about funding and people. In terms of

:35:00.:35:03.

collaboration, leadership and influence, for UK researchers to

:35:04.:35:07.

continue to be part of multinational projects and continue to influence

:35:08.:35:12.

EU's research agenda has to be of paramount importance. Regulation,

:35:13.:35:20.

ensuring that regulation that facilitate research collaboration

:35:21.:35:25.

and EU market access are retained while others, which hinder

:35:26.:35:29.

innovation are revised. With regards to facilities, ensuring ongoing

:35:30.:35:33.

access to the multinational research facilities hosting in other

:35:34.:35:35.

countries and the need to protect those based in the UK. Again, it's

:35:36.:35:40.

something that we have to work very hard at maintaining. Now a report

:35:41.:35:46.

also outlines some of the opportunities arising from Brexit

:35:47.:35:49.

that should be maximised. Such as the opportunity to embed science and

:35:50.:35:53.

technology at the very heart of the Government's new industrial

:35:54.:35:57.

strategy. The seizing of the opportunity specifically to look at

:35:58.:36:02.

GM regulation and now an improve upon the EU's overly cautious

:36:03.:36:06.

approach in this area. And the Government has the opportunity of

:36:07.:36:11.

revising its VAT rules in a way that would stimulate university and

:36:12.:36:15.

business collaboration. However, above all, what the Government needs

:36:16.:36:18.

to do is to set out and I think it is beginning to do that, is to set

:36:19.:36:23.

out a truly ambitious vision for science in the context of Brexit, to

:36:24.:36:27.

send a message around the world that Britain's position as a science

:36:28.:36:30.

superpower is going to grow and grow. Merely being open for business

:36:31.:36:35.

isn't enough if you don't have any customers. The Government must think

:36:36.:36:40.

beyond the open for business model now. However, as I've said, as time

:36:41.:36:46.

is short, I will concentrate if I may Madam Deputy Speaker on what I

:36:47.:36:50.

believe to be the two main issues, people and funding. With regards to

:36:51.:36:55.

people, my committee agreed to highlight people as a particularly

:36:56.:37:00.

significant theme. We called on the Government to make an immediate

:37:01.:37:04.

commitment to exempt EU scientists and researchers already working in

:37:05.:37:09.

the UK from wider potential immigration controls. Telling EU

:37:10.:37:12.

scientists and researchers already working in the UK that they are

:37:13.:37:17.

allowed to stay is one way the Government could reduce the

:37:18.:37:21.

uncertainty right now. I've heard many warm words from both the

:37:22.:37:24.

ministers on the frontbench and from the Prime Minister to take that

:37:25.:37:28.

extra step to provide reassurance for those 40,000 people this would

:37:29.:37:33.

apply to, I do not think is a particularly big ask. The risk is,

:37:34.:37:38.

along with the brain drain, that the UK will become a less attractive

:37:39.:37:43.

place for EU scientists to live, work and study. Now with regards to

:37:44.:37:48.

funding, when our report was published, I said that the Autumn

:37:49.:37:51.

Statement would be a chance for the Government to demonstrate its

:37:52.:37:53.

commitment to science and research in the context of Brexit. So you can

:37:54.:37:59.

imagine how delighted I was when the Chancellor responded to this by

:38:00.:38:02.

increasing the Government investment in research and development to the

:38:03.:38:06.

tune of ?2 billion per year by 2020. This is a huge step in the right

:38:07.:38:12.

direction and is a step towards meeting that 3% of GDP commitment. I

:38:13.:38:18.

think we all want to sign up to. Our report noted that the Government had

:38:19.:38:24.

provided some very welcome and helpful short-term reassurances for

:38:25.:38:27.

the science community following the referendum. Including underwriting

:38:28.:38:32.

EU funding for research, maintaining access to student loans. It's clear

:38:33.:38:35.

that the Government has done the right thing here in the short-term.

:38:36.:38:40.

However, my committee is worried that there isn't a comprehensive

:38:41.:38:44.

communications strategy for these messages of are assurance. The

:38:45.:38:48.

minister for universities, science, research and innovation, has been

:38:49.:38:51.

saying the right things. I'm worried that not everyone will have heard

:38:52.:38:55.

him. That was brought home this week when I met with the new or the

:38:56.:39:00.

interim chief executive of BBSRC, who said she'd attended a meeting

:39:01.:39:04.

where someone had not heard about those reassurances. There is more

:39:05.:39:07.

work to be done. The message is good. But does the Government know

:39:08.:39:11.

yet whether that message is being received? Clearly Government can't

:39:12.:39:15.

do all the communication itself. But it can have a strategy for providing

:39:16.:39:20.

reassurances, a clear idea of who its message needs to reach and an

:39:21.:39:26.

idea of who is best placed to reach those people. The recommendation

:39:27.:39:30.

from my committee is simple: The Government has made helpful first

:39:31.:39:33.

steps, but it needs to have a clear strategy for getting that message

:39:34.:39:36.

out to everyone who needs to hear it. Another key area of concern is

:39:37.:39:44.

that, as we've heard, that science and research is not at the heart of

:39:45.:39:51.

- not at the heart of its thinking. I think again, that was highlighted

:39:52.:39:56.

to the committee during the inquiry by the fact that we have yet to see

:39:57.:40:04.

a chief scientific advisor appointed. I hope that is something

:40:05.:40:09.

the minister will be able to address in his closing remarks. The

:40:10.:40:12.

Government will be responding to our report in due course. But I hope

:40:13.:40:17.

that the themes in the report will give honourable members an overview

:40:18.:40:21.

of what the big issues for science and research are. Science and

:40:22.:40:25.

research is the jewel in the UK's crown. It needs to be front and

:40:26.:40:29.

centre of the Government's thinking. If we get this right, we can go from

:40:30.:40:35.

strength to strength and support major life science industries here

:40:36.:40:39.

in the UK. But if the needs of science are forgotten, then our

:40:40.:40:42.

position as a science leader will diminish. Science is not a zero-sum

:40:43.:40:49.

game. That is, we can create a Brexit which is both a win for the

:40:50.:40:54.

UK science and a win for EU science. But that comes with a warning,

:40:55.:40:59.

getting it wrong doesn't just damage the UK, it holds the whole cause of

:41:00.:41:03.

science back too. Our understanding of the world, our ability to

:41:04.:41:07.

exercise appropriate stewardship of it and our capacity for making it a

:41:08.:41:12.

better place to live it in. -- live in. So to finish, Madam Deputy

:41:13.:41:17.

Speaker, I apologise in advance for this, it is the season of goodwill

:41:18.:41:22.

and Christmas is coming, the Chancellor has given us some gold.

:41:23.:41:27.

We now need some Frankness, some sense... And a sustainable, sensible

:41:28.:41:39.

im-mehr-gration policy. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:41:40.:41:53.

won't attempt to follow that, my goose would be roasted. I will

:41:54.:41:57.

declare first of all, Madam Deputy Speaker, and interest as both a

:41:58.:42:04.

scientist and also as an EU national, I hold an Irish passport,

:42:05.:42:10.

and as such I do feel strongly about what is happening during this

:42:11.:42:18.

debate. Madam Deputy Speaker, whilst Brexit makes no sense for many of

:42:19.:42:22.

us, for the scientific community Brexit goes against all normal rules

:42:23.:42:26.

and threatens the very creativity which is central to the work.

:42:27.:42:34.

Scientists do not see a person's nationality, class or ethnicity.

:42:35.:42:40.

They see only a mind and a personality. If that mind is

:42:41.:42:43.

brilliant, if that person has a contribution to make and a part to

:42:44.:42:47.

play them they are part of that community. We have already heard

:42:48.:42:55.

science and the impact it has on our economy described, we have heard the

:42:56.:43:00.

importance of continued or enhanced funding for science, and we know how

:43:01.:43:04.

important international collaborations are for science

:43:05.:43:09.

excellence. The Minister has already talked of the importance of the

:43:10.:43:15.

space sector, however the UK's continued, anticipation in projects

:43:16.:43:18.

such as the Galileo programme are under serious threat --

:43:19.:43:24.

participation. Galileo is the EU's answer to the US's system GPS. This

:43:25.:43:32.

is important because GPS can be blocked in times of conflict. Europe

:43:33.:43:37.

needed an independent system that it could rely on the UK's potential has

:43:38.:43:46.

been frozen out of both systems potentially a dangerous possibility.

:43:47.:43:52.

I would argue that the single most important elements to ensure we

:43:53.:43:55.

continue to maintain the UK's position as a science superpower is

:43:56.:44:02.

protecting and valuing the people who make UK science so impressive. I

:44:03.:44:09.

was delighted to welcome the principal of Glasgow University to

:44:10.:44:16.

parliament a fortnight ago. We were provided with interesting

:44:17.:44:21.

statistics. Peter Aldous 20% of the teaching staff and 50% of the

:44:22.:44:25.

research staff at Glasgow were EU nationals. If we consider the

:44:26.:44:32.

different types of staff referred to firstly we have the typically young

:44:33.:44:42.

postgrad or post-doc researcher. Less likely to have family ties that

:44:43.:44:45.

for some would make it difficult to leave and go elsewhere. So this is a

:44:46.:44:50.

highly mobile group of people for whom the institution has been chosen

:44:51.:44:55.

because of its speciality in a particular area. However, there

:44:56.:45:00.

will, by the nature of science, and many other institutions across

:45:01.:45:04.

Europe who have expertise in similar areas. The next group of staff are

:45:05.:45:14.

more established. They are holding more senior research lecturer

:45:15.:45:16.

positions and in charge of large projects or a large teams, and may

:45:17.:45:20.

well have family ties which make it to leave. But what both these groups

:45:21.:45:25.

of staff have in common are the doubts that have been placed over

:45:26.:45:30.

their future. The UK Government may well say that nothing will change

:45:31.:45:34.

for them in the short-term, but I keep hearing about the requirement

:45:35.:45:39.

for other EU states to offer reciprocal arrangements for UK

:45:40.:45:46.

citizens. So these scientists, some of the very best minds in the world,

:45:47.:45:50.

the very people enabling the UK to maintain its position at the

:45:51.:45:54.

forefront of world science, the people who are contributing to the

:45:55.:46:01.

UK economy. We know that in Scotland alone are world-class academic

:46:02.:46:06.

sector of 19 universities create an annual economic impact of 7.2

:46:07.:46:15.

billion. These very people are being compared to non-economically active

:46:16.:46:18.

pensioners living in Spain. How insulting is this to these top

:46:19.:46:25.

scientists to be used as bargaining chips and negotiation rights to

:46:26.:46:29.

remain? And which one of us would hang about where we are not wanted?

:46:30.:46:36.

My own husband is an EU national and an engineer. His 17 years service in

:46:37.:46:41.

the UK Armed Forces have been reduced to details of his place of

:46:42.:46:48.

birth. Thankfully in Scotland the First Minister has made robust

:46:49.:46:52.

statements on the importance of our EU nationals, and has thanked them

:46:53.:46:55.

for choosing to make Scotland their home. But we need similarly strong

:46:56.:47:00.

leadership on this from the UK Government. We need assurances

:47:01.:47:05.

called for in the recent Science and Technology Committee report on

:47:06.:47:09.

leaving the Rapp. These recommendations which have already

:47:10.:47:13.

been highlighted, included an immediate commitment to exempt EU

:47:14.:47:17.

researchers already working here from any wider potential immigration

:47:18.:47:24.

controls. But we need to go further. We should not be looking to exempt

:47:25.:47:29.

any researcher with the required skills, whether or not they are

:47:30.:47:35.

already resident in the UK. Because if we don't offer these assurances

:47:36.:47:38.

there are plenty of countries ready to sap these scientists up. Moving

:47:39.:47:45.

on to EU students, we have the potential for serious impact in

:47:46.:47:48.

higher education sector if we are not clear about what their

:47:49.:47:54.

immigration and fees status will be post-Brexit. Again, this potentially

:47:55.:48:00.

represents lost funding streams. The University of Liverpool in their

:48:01.:48:04.

submission to the Science and Technology Committee, stated that if

:48:05.:48:07.

they have no new EU students coming to study them by 2018-19 there are

:48:08.:48:17.

loss of fee income would be 6.2 million. In Scotland are EU students

:48:18.:48:22.

contribute massively to the local economy and increase the diversity

:48:23.:48:27.

and the student experience for all involved in higher education.

:48:28.:48:32.

Indeed, the financial loss is only one aspect, and we need to consider

:48:33.:48:36.

how we will protect the talent streams from the EU. Currently in

:48:37.:48:47.

the UK we cannot fill our places with EU students. The EU students

:48:48.:48:51.

who come to study in our institutions provide future talent

:48:52.:48:57.

in areas of key shortages. I would ask the minister Watt student

:48:58.:49:00.

recruitment strategies are being considered in key stem areas both at

:49:01.:49:06.

home and abroad? What fee structures will be in place post-Brexit?

:49:07.:49:13.

Because, an attractive UK university will quickly become less attractive

:49:14.:49:17.

if EU students are asked to pay international student fees. Already

:49:18.:49:26.

these restrictions pose major hurdles for non-EU scientists hoping

:49:27.:49:29.

to come to the UK for short study visits. What will happen post-Brexit

:49:30.:49:35.

when an EU research hopes to collaborate with a UK group? Of

:49:36.:49:42.

course, we keep hearing Brexit means Brexit, but does Brexit really mean

:49:43.:49:45.

that the UK's international reputation for science should be

:49:46.:49:52.

threatened? Leaving the EU presents major challenges for the future of

:49:53.:49:58.

UK science. But there is no representative of science on the

:49:59.:50:02.

Brexit negotiations and science must have a voice in any negotiations.

:50:03.:50:08.

The clock is ticking. We need action now to prevent fundamental and

:50:09.:50:15.

lasting damage. Albert Einstein once said two things are infinite, the

:50:16.:50:22.

universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the universe.

:50:23.:50:29.

CHUCKLES This government needs not to be

:50:30.:50:32.

infinitely stupid as it gambles with this most important area of the UK

:50:33.:50:42.

economy. Peter Lilley. Thank you. It's a great honour to follow the

:50:43.:50:46.

member for Glasgow North West, with whom I do agree on some aspects,

:50:47.:50:51.

particularly the importance of giving assurances to EU nationals,

:50:52.:50:54.

whether scientists or not in this country, that they can stay. What my

:50:55.:51:01.

Right Honourable friend the Minister, the Shadow minister, have

:51:02.:51:07.

said about our universities is if anything an understatement. They are

:51:08.:51:10.

every bit as good as they say and more. I shall argue that they are

:51:11.:51:18.

too modest. Our universities underestimate how attractive that

:51:19.:51:24.

they are and will be not just in the EU but around the world. They

:51:25.:51:27.

underestimate their ability to persuade their own government of the

:51:28.:51:30.

importance of funding research if they have been successful in

:51:31.:51:34.

persuading EU institutions of funding research in our

:51:35.:51:39.

universities. They underestimate, given their success in attracting

:51:40.:51:43.

students from outside the EU, how successful they will be in

:51:44.:51:45.

continuing to attract students from within the EU once we are no longer

:51:46.:51:52.

a member. So the universities have actually been too modest and too

:51:53.:52:02.

afraid of change. They should look forward positively to the

:52:03.:52:04.

opportunities that will open up when we are no longer in the EU. Three

:52:05.:52:10.

issues have been raised. The first is money. They claim that 10% of

:52:11.:52:14.

publicly funded UK research and develop that comes from the EU. That

:52:15.:52:20.

is, of course, a grossly misleading figure. During the referendum

:52:21.:52:23.

campaign there was much debate about the use of gross figures of our

:52:24.:52:29.

contribution to the EU rather than net figures. For instance the gross

:52:30.:52:37.

figure of ?350 million a week on the side of the Leave bus was

:52:38.:52:40.

criticised. I always use the net figure and we know from the Office

:52:41.:52:44.

for Budget Responsibility that the net figure that we will get back

:52:45.:52:48.

when we are no longer members of the EU will be ?250 million a week.

:52:49.:52:52.

Anyone who criticised that figure should be equally criticised and

:52:53.:52:58.

critical of those who quote the gross receipts from the EU without

:52:59.:53:04.

mentioning our contributions to it. The Honourable Lady did mention. In

:53:05.:53:10.

the case of the Horizon programme, we should not talk about the gross

:53:11.:53:13.

figure of 8.8 billion but the net figure of 3.4 billion over the

:53:14.:53:20.

period 2007-2013, which is of the order of half a billion a year and I

:53:21.:53:23.

will come back to that significant figure. Overall we are net

:53:24.:53:31.

contributors to the EU according to the OBR figures of exceeding ?13

:53:32.:53:38.

billion a year so it shouldn't be too difficult for a universities to

:53:39.:53:42.

argue for the continuation of the money they receive from the EU being

:53:43.:53:49.

funded in future directly from the Treasury instead of indirectly via

:53:50.:53:53.

the EU from a Treasury which will then be ?13 billion better off after

:53:54.:53:59.

meeting all the commitments that are currently funded from EU funds. I

:54:00.:54:07.

will now come to the issue of collaboration. It is obviously

:54:08.:54:13.

important that that we continue to provide opportunities for UK

:54:14.:54:19.

researchers to collaborate with high-calibre researchers across the

:54:20.:54:25.

world. Not just in the EU, but across the world. Because our

:54:26.:54:27.

universities and researchers are such high-calibre that they will be

:54:28.:54:33.

in demand as partners and shall be given opportunities to work with

:54:34.:54:42.

partners from across the world. If there are barriers to collaboration

:54:43.:54:46.

with researchers in North American, Asia, Australasia and Latin America

:54:47.:54:50.

I'd like to know about them. I constantly hear and meet researchers

:54:51.:54:56.

from those countries in the UK. If you look at the figures it turns out

:54:57.:55:02.

there we have 32,000 EU citizens working as academics in the UK, we

:55:03.:55:07.

also have 21,000 from non-EU countries working here so there does

:55:08.:55:12.

not seem to be too much difficulty in getting researchers and academics

:55:13.:55:21.

from outside the EU. If there are such problems, why have I never been

:55:22.:55:25.

lobbied by the universities to overcome the problems of bringing in

:55:26.:55:32.

citizens from non-EU countries? Do not like Americans, Latin Americans,

:55:33.:55:37.

Asians? Do they prefer Europeans? Shouldn't we be seeking

:55:38.:55:39.

opportunities worldwide and not narrowly in the EU was Mac I have

:55:40.:55:43.

been hinted at I should make progress rather than take

:55:44.:55:51.

interventions, I'm afraid. If there are such difficulties, let's

:55:52.:55:53.

overcome them and make sure they don't apply to Europe EU students in

:55:54.:56:01.

the future. Then we come to the issue of student numbers. The

:56:02.:56:11.

universities UK talk about increased barriers to recruiting EU students.

:56:12.:56:15.

I understand there are some 115,000 EU students currently in the UK, and

:56:16.:56:21.

of course they are entitled to loans from the British taxpayer and the

:56:22.:56:26.

right to stay and work after they have ceased studying. By contrast,

:56:27.:56:33.

our universities are spectacularly more successful in recruiting

:56:34.:56:36.

students from outside the EU. Even though they students pay the full

:56:37.:56:42.

cost of their education, effectively helping to subsidise all of the

:56:43.:56:47.

other students, British and European at university. And they have no

:56:48.:56:54.

right to, or more restricted rights, to remain and work in the UK.

:56:55.:57:01.

The universities claimed, in the past, when we interdeuced full fees

:57:02.:57:07.

for foreign university students that it would make it impossible for them

:57:08.:57:14.

to recruit from abroad. Happily, they were wrong, spectacularly

:57:15.:57:20.

wrong. I've no doubt they'll be equally wrong about the, their

:57:21.:57:25.

ability to continue recruiting EU students once we are no longer

:57:26.:57:32.

members of the EU. EU countries are closer, they're richer than many of

:57:33.:57:36.

the countries from which we do recruit students paying full fees.

:57:37.:57:40.

But we ought to take into account, when we're assessing the costs and

:57:41.:57:46.

benefits the cost to this country at present, from giving loans to EU

:57:47.:57:54.

students, which are inevitably more difficult to get back when they've

:57:55.:57:58.

left. Indeed official figures show that only 16% of EU students are

:57:59.:58:02.

currently repaying the loans that they've received from the British

:58:03.:58:06.

taxpayer. I don't know what the figures are, but I'll venture some

:58:07.:58:10.

so that people can knock them down and come back with better figures.

:58:11.:58:18.

Supposing 60% of these students - would the right honourable gentleman

:58:19.:58:22.

like to intervene if he's got some funny point to make? We haven't got

:58:23.:58:30.

any facts or figures. I'm trying to elicit them Madam Deputy Speaker.

:58:31.:58:34.

There are 115,000 students, I don't know how many have loans. Let's say

:58:35.:58:39.

60% take out loaneds. If only -- loans. If only 16% of them repay,

:58:40.:58:43.

that mean it's costs the British taxpayer over ?500 million a year to

:58:44.:58:49.

subsidise EU students. Now I hope that the minister can tell us that

:58:50.:58:52.

the sum is less than that. Or members on the other side can tell

:58:53.:58:56.

us that it's less than that. But perhaps they're not interested.

:58:57.:58:59.

Perhaps they like dishing out British taxpayers' money without

:59:00.:59:03.

calculating how much is at stake and for whom. Now the other aspect that

:59:04.:59:11.

universities are worried about and rightly worried about is whether

:59:12.:59:19.

immigration controls will imprink on our -- impinge on our ability to

:59:20.:59:24.

recruit students from the EU. They reiterated their demand that student

:59:25.:59:26.

numbers be excluded from the immigration figures. That's a

:59:27.:59:30.

somewhat disingenuous request. That's not what they really want. Of

:59:31.:59:35.

course, if students return to their home country after studying here,

:59:36.:59:40.

the net contribution of students to the net immigration figure is zero.

:59:41.:59:46.

What universities mean is not they want the figures excluded but they

:59:47.:59:52.

want the limitations on students' right to remain to be lifted. They

:59:53.:59:58.

want to, as it were, sell university places by giving it the added

:59:59.:00:02.

benefit that you can get round our immigration controls. They want that

:00:03.:00:07.

in the present for those come being from outside the EU and they want to

:00:08.:00:11.

maintain it in future for those coming from the EU when we're not in

:00:12.:00:16.

it. I think that is not the right way to approach it. We should have

:00:17.:00:23.

immigration rules, which allow us to recruit students from abroad, but to

:00:24.:00:27.

ensure that they return later. And that we can recruit academics from

:00:28.:00:33.

abroad as we do at present and without creating added difficulties

:00:34.:00:39.

for it. If we do, if we have sensible policies about continuing

:00:40.:00:44.

our fundy, which we'll be able to afford to do, about continuing to

:00:45.:00:48.

recruit from abroad, which we ought to be able to do, and we don't

:00:49.:00:55.

impose any new restrictions on recruiting academics, I think the

:00:56.:00:57.

opportunities for British universities will be far greater

:00:58.:01:02.

than they imagine and I urge them to put their excessive modesty behind

:01:03.:01:07.

them and set aside their fear of change and embrace the opportunities

:01:08.:01:09.

which Brexit will give them. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker for

:01:10.:01:19.

calling me and giving me the opportunity to make my maiden speech

:01:20.:01:23.

today. It's a privilege and an honour to be standing here as the

:01:24.:01:28.

located representative of Richmond Park, which brings with it a great

:01:29.:01:32.

responsibility that I shall use my best endeavours to fulfil. I wish to

:01:33.:01:36.

pay tribute to my predecessor Mr Zac Goldsmith and thank him for his

:01:37.:01:41.

excellent constituency work on behalf of my fellow residents over

:01:42.:01:45.

the last six years. In particular, we owe him our unending thanks for

:01:46.:01:49.

his efforts to block plans to build a third runway at Heathrow. The fact

:01:50.:01:55.

that he felt he could no longer be part of a Conservative Party that

:01:56.:01:59.

improved expansion demonstrates his passion and commitment to the cause.

:02:00.:02:02.

It's a cause that I take up willingly on behalf of constituents,

:02:03.:02:06.

who know that the claimed economic benefits of expansion will not

:02:07.:02:10.

compensate for the impacts of the increased noise and air pollution

:02:11.:02:13.

that millions will suffer if expansion goes ahead. I would also

:02:14.:02:18.

like to acknowledge the contribution of his predecessor my fellow Liberal

:02:19.:02:23.

Democrat Susan Kramer who fought the third runway for so many years. I

:02:24.:02:26.

look forward to working with colleagues from all parties as we

:02:27.:02:29.

continue to make the case against expansion. It's a particular honour

:02:30.:02:33.

to be elected to represent Richmond Park, not just because it's my home

:02:34.:02:37.

and the place where I have been bringing up my family, but also

:02:38.:02:41.

because of its great history and wonderful environment. Richmond

:02:42.:02:47.

takes its name from the Earl of Richmond, later Henry VII, who built

:02:48.:02:54.

his great Palace in 1500. Henry VII was the king, who having won a great

:02:55.:02:58.

victory at the battle of Bosworth, came to power at a time when the

:02:59.:03:01.

country was catastrophicically divided by the wars of the roses and

:03:02.:03:07.

urgentsly needed leadership to bring it back to harmony an prosperity.

:03:08.:03:11.

Britain today is a divided country, split asunder by the decision taken

:03:12.:03:14.

in June this year to leave the European Union. At it's hard to see

:03:15.:03:21.

how these divisions can be healed. It's my belief Parliament can be a

:03:22.:03:24.

positive force in bringing together the two sides of the Brexit debate.

:03:25.:03:29.

If the arguments can be aired openly, questions answered

:03:30.:03:31.

thoughtfully and votes taken on all the significant points of

:03:32.:03:35.

difference, then each British citizen will see their point of view

:03:36.:03:38.

is being represented whichever way they voted in June. There can be no

:03:39.:03:42.

question of people being silenced or sneered at for their opinion on

:03:43.:03:46.

Britain's future within the European Union. I make no secret of the fact

:03:47.:03:51.

that my own opinion is that we remain. I believe that the will of

:03:52.:03:55.

the people is the same today as it has always been, to live in a

:03:56.:04:01.

prosperous and stable society. Our spoments and Parliamentarians are

:04:02.:04:04.

the -- responsibilities are the same as they always have been to act in

:04:05.:04:08.

the best interests of our country. We have a duty to future generations

:04:09.:04:14.

to bequeathe them a society in which they can thrive. Evidence and

:04:15.:04:18.

instinct suggests that collaboration with our nearest neighbours benefit

:04:19.:04:21.

our trade, education, environment, security and our individual well

:04:22.:04:26.

being. Such benefits should not be carelessly thrown aside without a

:04:27.:04:30.

careful, sober and detailed examination of what the consequences

:04:31.:04:35.

will be. The impact of Brexit will be wide ranging and not just

:04:36.:04:39.

financial. In my constituency, our hospital relies on the hard work and

:04:40.:04:43.

dedication of migrants from Europe. Many of my constituents work in

:04:44.:04:48.

financial services, which rely on our privileged position inside

:04:49.:04:54.

Europe. Many of our businesses import from and export to the

:04:55.:04:58.

European Union and rely on the tariff free access for their

:04:59.:05:03.

success. Many families, hard working, community spirited, warm,

:05:04.:05:06.

friendly people have come to our little corner of London from across

:05:07.:05:10.

Europe and made it their home. And in the area of science and research,

:05:11.:05:15.

there is no doubt that the UK has benefitted hugely from its

:05:16.:05:19.

membership of the European Union. I had the enormous privilege before

:05:20.:05:23.

being located as MP to work for a world renowned science and research

:05:24.:05:26.

organisation. So I've had some experience of the discussions and

:05:27.:05:29.

the concerns that the prospect of Brexit has raised amongst the

:05:30.:05:33.

science community. The obvious impact will be the lack of access to

:05:34.:05:38.

research funding provided by the EU. There is no question that the UK is

:05:39.:05:43.

currently a net beneficiary of this. Between 2007 and 2013 we paid in 5

:05:44.:05:48.

billion euros to the Horizon 2020 fund and received 8 billion euros

:05:49.:05:53.

back in grant funding. The impacts go deeper. One of the biggest

:05:54.:05:56.

concerns is that by being shut out of access to EU funding, UK

:05:57.:06:02.

scientists will also be excluded from cross-EU collaborative projects

:06:03.:06:05.

and lose access to specialist laboratory facilities across Europe.

:06:06.:06:09.

This will result in a loss of opportunities for UK scientists to

:06:10.:06:12.

participate at the very forefront of research. UK laboratories and

:06:13.:06:16.

research facilities currently benefit from the ability of

:06:17.:06:19.

scientists from across the EU to come and work here. If Brexit

:06:20.:06:22.

inhibits the ability of EU nationals to move to the UK, then UK based

:06:23.:06:28.

science and research will suffer. The success of UK science and

:06:29.:06:31.

technology industries will be receiptical to our future economy

:06:32.:06:35.

and we should be doing all we can to nurture and promote them. Dinot

:06:36.:06:42.

aspire to be a politician. I didn't ever expect to be standing here and

:06:43.:06:49.

addressing members as I am today. I felt compelled to put myself forward

:06:50.:06:53.

by the events of the last few months, not just the referendum

:06:54.:06:56.

result, the Government response and the aftermath and the divided

:06:57.:07:00.

society that has resulted. I wish to close by thanking fellow MPs from

:07:01.:07:03.

all sides of the House for the warm welcome they have extended to me

:07:04.:07:07.

since my election, unexpected though my election was, I'm enormously

:07:08.:07:10.

excited by the opportunity I've been given and look forward to playing a

:07:11.:07:13.

full part in the business of this House. We start with a seven minute

:07:14.:07:22.

speech limit. Thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker. Could I be the

:07:23.:07:27.

first to congrape late the honourable lady on her --

:07:28.:07:29.

congratulate the honourable lady on her speech and particularly on the

:07:30.:07:34.

generous tribute she paid to her predecessor and on the very real

:07:35.:07:38.

knowledge that she brings to this debate with her own professional

:07:39.:07:42.

background. She's clearly -- she clearly feels passionate about this

:07:43.:07:45.

issue and the wider issues it brings about. I look forward to hearing

:07:46.:07:49.

further contributions from her. I would just gently say that she

:07:50.:07:56.

referred to the Brexit vote as deeply divisive. And leaving us a

:07:57.:08:00.

divided country. I'd suggest to her that for some of us it seemed that

:08:01.:08:04.

we were becoming a divided country before it and the hope is that now

:08:05.:08:08.

those people who found themselves so many times on the wrong side of the

:08:09.:08:11.

divide have actually spoken out, that we may find a way forward that

:08:12.:08:18.

eventually suits everybody. I'm proud to be the representative of

:08:19.:08:24.

the largest student body of any constituency in the country, with

:08:25.:08:29.

the University of Kent Christchurch university and one of the campuses

:08:30.:08:34.

of the University of the creative arts in my constituency, more than

:08:35.:08:39.

20,000 students. I would say in answer to some of the earlier points

:08:40.:08:43.

we've heard about the issue of visas, that it seems to me there's a

:08:44.:08:47.

clear middle way to be followed here. It is absolutely essential

:08:48.:08:53.

that top quality academics have access to visas here and indeed,

:08:54.:08:58.

that those who are already here from the EU feel completely secure in

:08:59.:09:02.

their jobs. I'm with all those who have spoken out on that point. I see

:09:03.:09:07.

nothing in any way inconsistent in that with also believing that a

:09:08.:09:10.

sensible immigration policy, which is what the country wants, must

:09:11.:09:16.

include clamping down on abuses of the student route. The fact that

:09:17.:09:20.

we've closed 800 phony colleges is a very important part of that. I'd

:09:21.:09:26.

like to especially welcome what my honourable friend said in his speech

:09:27.:09:36.

about accepting Sir Paul Merse's recommendations. I'm a supporter of

:09:37.:09:42.

the need for a VAT Jay. For many -- strategy. For many years this

:09:43.:09:47.

country was at the forefront of research and then to see it

:09:48.:09:52.

exploited outside this country. You need a strategy and focussed

:09:53.:09:55.

research policy in order to ensure that we get the most response from

:09:56.:10:02.

our very, very successful university research programmes. The University

:10:03.:10:08.

of Kent has facilities in Brussels, Paris, Athens and Rome and calls

:10:09.:10:12.

itself the European Union verse I. I am -- university. I am delighted to

:10:13.:10:17.

say that I think a withdrawal from the structures of the EU shouldn't

:10:18.:10:23.

mean a withdrawal from Europe. There isn't time to list its successes in

:10:24.:10:28.

the space world, but I would just say on the medical side, that just

:10:29.:10:32.

in the last month, another grant from Horizon 2020 for research

:10:33.:10:38.

network addressing biometric solutions for the use of mobile

:10:39.:10:43.

devices, a successful bid for a 2 million grand for the Relate

:10:44.:10:48.

programme designed a step change in how nature under-Pinochets human

:10:49.:11:01.

well being. I, like -- under-pins. The Times league of international

:11:02.:11:06.

universities puts 24 out of 25 of them in the English speaking world,

:11:07.:11:10.

including five British ones. Intriguingly, the only exception is

:11:11.:11:16.

the formidable ETH Zurich and Switzerland, like most

:11:17.:11:21.

English-speaking countries, has a structure where free standing

:11:22.:11:24.

institutions, something which is sadly not really the case in most

:11:25.:11:28.

continental countries, where universities are much closer to the

:11:29.:11:32.

government departments. While there may be a short-term concern, which

:11:33.:11:37.

we've heard expressed several times now by speakers opposite that we may

:11:38.:11:41.

lose out on collaborative ventures somehow, even though we're putting

:11:42.:11:46.

the money in to compensate, because we may get attitudes from the other

:11:47.:11:50.

side that are not actually in their best interests. The fact that we

:11:51.:11:55.

have so much excellence, I believe firmly will win through. We also

:11:56.:12:01.

have another advantage, which is particularly relevant to medical

:12:02.:12:04.

research. When we're dealing with America, which has the largest

:12:05.:12:08.

concentration of excellence in the world, we have a massive advantage

:12:09.:12:14.

because we don't have the third party of the insurance companies

:12:15.:12:18.

constantly creating a drag on research. If patients want to be

:12:19.:12:23.

part of an experimental programme to access an experimental drug, perhaps

:12:24.:12:27.

as their last chance to stay alive, they can sign up for it, in a way

:12:28.:12:31.

they can't in America without permission from their insurance

:12:32.:12:36.

companies, which is why, for example, our first 14 ECMCs,

:12:37.:12:41.

experimental cancer medicine centres are attracting so much interest from

:12:42.:12:44.

American pharmaceutical companies. I'd like to end by saying how very

:12:45.:12:54.

strongly support the bid from Canterbury Christ Church University

:12:55.:13:01.

and the University of Kent to setup the creation of a group of health

:13:02.:13:04.

centres of excellence with a view in the long run to medical school in

:13:05.:13:10.

Kent. We are the largest area in the country without its own medical

:13:11.:13:19.

school. The inspirational leadership of Doctor Abdul would make sure this

:13:20.:13:24.

medical school addressed the very buzzwords we keep hearing about we

:13:25.:13:30.

need to fix in the NHS. It's no good talking about ending things like

:13:31.:13:35.

silos, transferring things from secondary to primary care, about

:13:36.:13:41.

closer links between social care and NHS care which people have been

:13:42.:13:47.

talking about for 30 years, unless we hard-wired into medical training

:13:48.:13:50.

together with feedback mechanisms to make sure people are brought

:13:51.:13:54.

up-to-date automatically on new skills which have to be programmed

:13:55.:13:58.

into the lectures. These are just some of the ideas which this

:13:59.:14:03.

incredibly innovative programme leader is pushing for in this new

:14:04.:14:09.

medical school. It's a sad fact that of the thousands of University of,

:14:10.:14:16.

I'm about to run out, but students including my own son who is a

:14:17.:14:20.

medical student, who come through our excellent hospitals, relatively

:14:21.:14:22.

few of them stay because we don't have a medical school backing them

:14:23.:14:28.

up. I'd like to recommend that to the Minister. Deputy Speaker, it

:14:29.:14:35.

used to be the straight banana syndrome whereby some commentators

:14:36.:14:40.

would blame everything on the European Union whenever anything in

:14:41.:14:44.

the world went wrong. Well, that's flipped on its head now. I would

:14:45.:14:52.

call it the private Fraser syndrome whereby the moment you mention

:14:53.:14:56.

Brexit everything is doom and gloom, and forecasts of everything going

:14:57.:15:05.

haywire and wrong. My advice on science and technology to government

:15:06.:15:07.

is the same on other issues related to Brexit. Get on with it. Its

:15:08.:15:13.

uncertainty that causes problems. That Article 50 vote should have

:15:14.:15:16.

taken place in July. They were too busy having elections in September.

:15:17.:15:24.

That should already have been passed. Delay and uncertainty is

:15:25.:15:27.

what industry tells me they do not like and do not wish to see. The

:15:28.:15:34.

repeal act, when it comes, let me give advice to the Government, I

:15:35.:15:40.

hope they will listen. Make it simple. Every single piece of EU law

:15:41.:15:44.

should be brought into broad usual. If the Conservative Party or any

:15:45.:15:47.

other party wants to change that in the future they have plenty of

:15:48.:15:52.

opportunity when it is British law to change it, but every single thing

:15:53.:15:55.

in one Bill in one swipe should become British law. That would help

:15:56.:16:00.

remove uncertainty and Saevarsson rather a lot of time in here to

:16:01.:16:06.

concentrate on other matters. Now, may I say, how much I agree with the

:16:07.:16:15.

member for Glasgow North West -- save us rather a lot of time. When

:16:16.:16:20.

she says science does not see nationality. That's the whole part

:16:21.:16:23.

of the problem with the EU when it comes to science and technology and

:16:24.:16:27.

any other specialism. It sees nationality within the EU. The times

:16:28.:16:33.

I was involved in bidding for money and within the EU structures and

:16:34.:16:38.

rules you had to incorporate this EU country, that EU country, that body,

:16:39.:16:42.

this body, in order to get the full mix to the exclusion of the rest of

:16:43.:16:46.

the world, the other 170 nations and their expertise. That has been on

:16:47.:16:51.

occasion a strength, but far more often a weakness within the EU. We

:16:52.:16:57.

should not see nationality when we are looking at science and research

:16:58.:17:01.

collaboration. We should be seeing where the best expertise is. I've

:17:02.:17:11.

spoken to my own constituents. Several thousand have been polled.

:17:12.:17:15.

There is somewhat of a consensus emerging in my area. The same with

:17:16.:17:19.

the House. The vast majority of people who vote Remain, the vast

:17:20.:17:24.

majority, see reducing immigration as critical to Brexit. The vast

:17:25.:17:30.

majority of people who voted Leave see access to the Single Market, in

:17:31.:17:35.

whatever form, as perfectly acceptable to them. Actually, I

:17:36.:17:43.

think the consensus is far greater than people in here are prepared to

:17:44.:17:47.

admit. Now, what kind of immigration, frankly, I do not think

:17:48.:17:54.

that if this Parliament decides that the big universities should have its

:17:55.:18:01.

students, teaching staff and other experts and scientists from abroad,

:18:02.:18:04.

that my constituents are going to complain. I would go a step further,

:18:05.:18:10.

I'd like to see regional work visas brought in. Frankly, Scotland,

:18:11.:18:14.

Wales, Northern Ireland, if they choose whoever they choose to have

:18:15.:18:17.

working in those countries, my constituents do not have a strong

:18:18.:18:22.

view on it. Their care what happens in my locality, they care whether we

:18:23.:18:27.

can stop Mr Ashley and Sports Direct bringing in 3200 people from abroad

:18:28.:18:30.

and stopping my constituents applying for jobs and reducing their

:18:31.:18:34.

wages in adjoining industries. That is what they are bothered about. I

:18:35.:18:39.

think solutions in relation to where we need to be our straightforward,

:18:40.:18:45.

though negotiations will always be complex. Get on with them. Think of

:18:46.:18:54.

the things we've missed out. We were the leaders 30 years ago. In these

:18:55.:19:02.

things, technology, the world leaders. We had the scientists. Our

:19:03.:19:07.

weakness was always turning it into manufactured products. The entire

:19:08.:19:13.

digital era, digital microphones, they are all forms of digital

:19:14.:19:18.

technology, where we were world leaders 30 years ago, we got wiped

:19:19.:19:21.

out because we were incapable of turning it into effective products.

:19:22.:19:27.

And indeed, I think that the EU did not assist us in relation to that.

:19:28.:19:34.

Similarly as well, looking at the energy sector, where we were world

:19:35.:19:40.

leaders but where classically, when it comes to science and technology

:19:41.:19:45.

and energy, the EU goes in ten different directions at once because

:19:46.:19:49.

of national pressures and doesn't have that coherence. Europe lags

:19:50.:19:53.

behind on energy technology. Robotics, again in the 80s, we were

:19:54.:19:59.

the world leaders. Are academics were the greatest in developing

:20:00.:20:04.

robotic technology. But neither Arsenal others in Europe were

:20:05.:20:09.

capable of delivering that into the jobs that others did. We missed and

:20:10.:20:15.

skipped a generation in terms of application, and the whole computer

:20:16.:20:23.

industry even more graphically, we did not protect our embryonic

:20:24.:20:27.

industries and companies. We weren't allowed to protect our embryonic

:20:28.:20:32.

industries and companies. Now we are. There is nothing wrong with

:20:33.:20:35.

control and protection when you have a new sector emerging. For us to use

:20:36.:20:43.

our freedoms to protect. The geothermal sector is clearly going

:20:44.:20:50.

to be the next energy development. We have that capacity. We should be

:20:51.:20:55.

protecting that sector to allow it to develop and using those freedoms.

:20:56.:21:05.

That is why we have great opportunity. We've always had the

:21:06.:21:09.

ingenuity. We want to keep the partnerships, including with the

:21:10.:21:15.

Germans, the French, the Italian scientists and technologists,

:21:16.:21:17.

allowing our universities to do so, but also with the rest of the world,

:21:18.:21:22.

and use that freedom to protect those embryonic industries so they

:21:23.:21:27.

will then result in production and jobs and wealth in this country as

:21:28.:21:31.

well as the ingenuity and innovation. Doctor Tanya Matthias.

:21:32.:21:38.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. May one congratulate the member for

:21:39.:21:42.

Richmond Park on her excellent maiden speech, and I look forward to

:21:43.:21:47.

working with you on many aspects that affect residents of both of our

:21:48.:21:51.

constituencies. I'd also like to thank the government for giving time

:21:52.:21:54.

to this very important debate and very special thanks to the member

:21:55.:21:58.

for South Basildon and East Thurrock for his very kind words. It was an

:21:59.:22:04.

absolute joy to be interim chair of this excellent committee. What I'd

:22:05.:22:07.

also like to point out is I did chair one of the sessions, is

:22:08.:22:12.

members of the committee, some of the members of the science committee

:22:13.:22:15.

voted to remain, like myself, some voted to leave. That this committee

:22:16.:22:23.

is unanimous on this report about the EU and the opportunities and

:22:24.:22:26.

risks for science and research, this committee is unanimous in wanting

:22:27.:22:32.

Brexit to work for the science community and research. That's why

:22:33.:22:37.

I'm especially proud of this report. Yes, the UK is a science superpower

:22:38.:22:41.

as the ministers and members have said, we make up less than 1% of the

:22:42.:22:46.

world's population but 15.9% of the world's most highly cited research

:22:47.:22:53.

articles are UK. But science is, as we put in our report, a global and

:22:54.:23:01.

mobile endeavour. My colleague again from South Basildon East Thurrock

:23:02.:23:04.

was right to say people were the major factor that our committee

:23:05.:23:08.

heard evidence about. The Minister is right to say the UK should be ago

:23:09.:23:15.

to place, but note what we have in our report, the campaign for the

:23:16.:23:17.

advancement of science and engineering said is not enough to

:23:18.:23:22.

allow EU scientists and students to be in our country. We must fight for

:23:23.:23:31.

them. That is how our science and research will succeed more. It is

:23:32.:23:36.

great to have the guarantees for EU students, and I do note that the

:23:37.:23:41.

Minister has repeatedly confirmed this for students now and the EU

:23:42.:23:46.

students coming in 2017-18 for the duration of their course. But again,

:23:47.:23:50.

we have to say the communication programme is not enough. That does

:23:51.:23:58.

need to be worked on. Will also note and we are glad about the guarantees

:23:59.:24:02.

for Horizon 2020, and importantly the guarantees on funding will not

:24:03.:24:07.

be taken out of the science budget. They will be extra to it. I

:24:08.:24:10.

absolutely applaud that. Also, subsequent to this report, I greatly

:24:11.:24:18.

valued the Minister, the member for Worcester, who met several of my

:24:19.:24:22.

token science businesses and researchers, and I know he took note

:24:23.:24:26.

of many of those detailed points. What I would like the Minister to

:24:27.:24:31.

note is that Horizon 2020 might finish, but we do need to put in

:24:32.:24:39.

place as the laboratory of the government chemists pointed out our

:24:40.:24:41.

own transitional research projects, but is also vitally important. Also

:24:42.:24:48.

my colleague from Lewisham West and pension also alluded to concerns

:24:49.:24:55.

about some of our EU researchers already leaving the UK. -- Penge.

:24:56.:25:02.

This is where the committee said we need to have proper metrics before

:25:03.:25:05.

and after the Brexit negotiations. Are we still lose and people? Are we

:25:06.:25:10.

still ahead in those research projects? Importantly, as has

:25:11.:25:14.

already been mentioned, but this is extraordinary and is a big negative

:25:15.:25:18.

currently in the negative Domagoj Pavicic or exiting the EU, you do

:25:19.:25:26.

need a chief scientific adviser -- Department for exiting the EU. That

:25:27.:25:30.

has to be in place. You need guidance on the metrics, the

:25:31.:25:36.

regulations. I know from the evidence from the British

:25:37.:25:40.

pharmacological Society, it is critical, the European medicines

:25:41.:25:43.

agency, yes, we were leading on those regulations, the clinical

:25:44.:25:48.

trials pharmacopoeia Joe Lynskey. We have also had evidence from local

:25:49.:25:54.

businesses, about the unitary patents system. You need your chief

:25:55.:26:02.

scientific adviser to say what you're going to do about this. You

:26:03.:26:09.

have to fight for the students, scientists and researchers from the

:26:10.:26:13.

EU. We have to fight from the -- for the funding, maintaining those

:26:14.:26:18.

research projects. But in this season, this Christmas season, we

:26:19.:26:20.

have heard lots of wishes that should be on your Christmas wish

:26:21.:26:25.

list from Santa. Primarily, you need Santa to give you a chief scientific

:26:26.:26:28.

adviser. Thank you. Thank you very much. I'm pleased to

:26:29.:26:39.

follow the honourable member for Twickenham who made such an informed

:26:40.:26:44.

speech and also the honourable member for Richmond Park who made an

:26:45.:26:50.

excellent maiden speech. The importance of signs to Britain in's

:26:51.:26:54.

Industrial Revolution is well known. Dear tourney in physics, Faraday's

:26:55.:27:01.

electrical magnetism, the vaccination, these scientific

:27:02.:27:04.

advances weren't simply great intellectual achievements, they also

:27:05.:27:07.

made a difference to the way of life of everybody in this country and

:27:08.:27:12.

indeed across the entire world and this is still true today. The

:27:13.:27:17.

quality of our scientific research is valuable in itself. It's also

:27:18.:27:22.

what underpins our economic performance, our standard of living

:27:23.:27:29.

and our quality of life. It imbues our values as a civilised country

:27:30.:27:34.

and it is what distinguishes us from our medieval forebears. The leading

:27:35.:27:44.

clinical geneticist who was born in West Auckland undertook research in

:27:45.:27:50.

1990 testing aspirin across 68 countries and that was how he found

:27:51.:27:54.

that regular doses can reduce hereditary cancer. I asked him about

:27:55.:28:02.

the value of pan EU collaboration and he said more effective, easier

:28:03.:28:08.

to lure the best scientists onto projects and despite the

:28:09.:28:12.

bureaucratic hurdles it produces better results. An industrial site

:28:13.:28:29.

my constituency has a Glaxo plant. It facilitates precompetitive

:28:30.:28:33.

research into such questions as liver toxicity which are far more

:28:34.:28:36.

economic to carry out at a European level than could ever be the case

:28:37.:28:43.

for an individual country. Currently Glaxo does 30% of its research and

:28:44.:28:47.

development in the UK. It would be costly to move it but in a

:28:48.:28:52.

worst-case scenario could happen. Honourable members have already

:28:53.:28:57.

spoken about the financial benefits to us of joining in the EU

:28:58.:29:02.

programme. One of the key things is that we are at the heart of shaping

:29:03.:29:07.

the research. The European strategy Forum on research infrastructure is

:29:08.:29:11.

currently chaired by British academic as is the board of the

:29:12.:29:15.

European research area. We host EU facilities and headquarters. Does

:29:16.:29:22.

the Minister think that if we became merely an associated country run

:29:23.:29:26.

nonassociated third country we would still be leading the EU direction

:29:27.:29:34.

for this research? Everyone values Horizon 20 20s so I'm calling on the

:29:35.:29:40.

government to make continued membership of Horizon 2020 and its

:29:41.:29:45.

success of programmes a key objective in the negotiating

:29:46.:29:51.

strategy for Brexit. Then the Treasury Select Committee, the

:29:52.:29:55.

Chancellor confirmed he was guaranteeing projects that receive

:29:56.:30:01.

Horizon 2020 money. Beyond that period. The minister was not able to

:30:02.:30:06.

tell us in the opening speech how researchers can now that their

:30:07.:30:13.

guarantees meet these two further tests. I hope in the wind up the

:30:14.:30:17.

other Minister, his colleague, can explain that to us. Many colleagues.

:30:18.:30:24.

To save perhaps time in the wind-up, may I say to the honourable lady

:30:25.:30:28.

that did Treasury will underwrite all successful bids if they are

:30:29.:30:31.

approved by the commission even when specific projects continue.

:30:32.:30:37.

Government departments will not assess Horizon 2020 grant

:30:38.:30:40.

applications and it is an EU problem and grant funding is awarded by the

:30:41.:30:45.

commission based on peer review. Beauty businesses should continue to

:30:46.:30:50.

bid for those EU funds while we remain a member. I'm pleased the

:30:51.:30:55.

Minister has given at confirmation, it sounds as if the Chancellor is

:30:56.:30:59.

seeing that his criteria are met if you are a successful Horizon 2020

:31:00.:31:04.

bidder. Colleagues have spoken about the problems that will come if we

:31:05.:31:12.

lose freedom of movement. At best discouraging European academics from

:31:13.:31:15.

working here, at worst preventing people from coming at all. These

:31:16.:31:23.

people make up over 20% of teaching staff in some of the most crucial

:31:24.:31:30.

scientific subjects. Physics, astronomy, mathematical sciences,

:31:31.:31:35.

biological sciences, chemistry and Mysterio sciences, computer

:31:36.:31:37.

scientists. We cannot afford to Lee's -- Losey 's people -- material

:31:38.:31:44.

sciences. I will not repeat what other colleagues have said and no

:31:45.:31:48.

doubt will say but it is vital that ministers confirm the stages of

:31:49.:31:53.

people who are in the country today but furthermore the government

:31:54.:31:55.

should make it clear that they will seek a complete carve out for

:31:56.:32:03.

British and European academics post Brexit so they can travel and work

:32:04.:32:10.

in each other's universities. Thirdly, the government should

:32:11.:32:14.

commit to a shared post Brexit regulatory structure so that

:32:15.:32:18.

researchers have a level playing field, can minimise costs and can

:32:19.:32:24.

continue to run large population experiments in parallel across

:32:25.:32:28.

European countries. In essence, this would be an open market in research

:32:29.:32:32.

and development post Brexit. What I think we have to remember is that

:32:33.:32:38.

scientific development is essentially a collaborative and

:32:39.:32:46.

cooperative part of human endeavour. It does not recognise national

:32:47.:32:50.

boundaries in the quest for truth. This is not a new idea. Writing to

:32:51.:32:57.

Robert Hooke in 1676, Isaac Newton said" what Descartes did was a good

:32:58.:33:04.

step. You have added much, if I have seen further it is by standing on

:33:05.:33:14.

the shoulders of giants. " It's an honour to be able to speak in this

:33:15.:33:19.

debate and studio to follow on from the honourable member for Richmond

:33:20.:33:23.

Park who gave an exceptional maiden speech and I wish her well. It takes

:33:24.:33:31.

me back to my maiden speech, I think when I was speaking on the same day

:33:32.:33:35.

as my right honourable friend the member for Loughborough and we both

:33:36.:33:40.

topped on science I seem to remember and I congratulate her on the great

:33:41.:33:43.

work she's done since in helping to boost skills in that vitally

:33:44.:33:49.

important area. I'm delighted to be able to speak on the subject.

:33:50.:33:53.

Science is absolutely vital field for us, even more so at this time of

:33:54.:33:56.

significant change and great uncertainty. Brexit is not something

:33:57.:34:02.

we should fear. The fundamentals of our economy are good, indeed the

:34:03.:34:06.

forecasts indicate that growth will be stronger than Germany's and

:34:07.:34:13.

France's next year and we should look forward in confidence as we

:34:14.:34:16.

navigate our way forward and realise the real opportunities that lie

:34:17.:34:21.

ahead. We need to use Brexit as a spur, a real call to action in

:34:22.:34:24.

addressing long-standing challenges that have been a drag on our economy

:34:25.:34:28.

for too long including the skills gap and below par productivity.

:34:29.:34:33.

Science and technology has a vital role to play as I'm sure that

:34:34.:34:36.

colleagues across the House would agree with. The action plan from the

:34:37.:34:43.

medicine manufacturing industry partnership says it is part of

:34:44.:34:48.

leaving the EU it is vital that the UK makes all efforts to retain and

:34:49.:34:52.

continued to improve its fiscal offering in order to secure

:34:53.:34:55.

investments and infrastructure in the UK and give confidence to

:34:56.:35:02.

investors. That's why I joined the science and technology select

:35:03.:35:05.

committee in welcoming the government's funding guarantees

:35:06.:35:08.

relating to EU science projects that we have talked about at length in

:35:09.:35:12.

this debate. I want to pay tribute to the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

:35:13.:35:16.

he gets this and understands how vitally important that as we build

:35:17.:35:21.

investor confidence that we back innovation and productivity and

:35:22.:35:25.

infrastructure and I welcome ?2 billion per year that he announced

:35:26.:35:31.

in the Autumn Statement, absolutely vital to science and innovation.

:35:32.:35:34.

It's a very important step in hugely welcomed. It's not just about

:35:35.:35:40.

funding. Colleagues have spoken about the importance of

:35:41.:35:44.

collaboration and I think that is critical to maintain relationships

:35:45.:35:47.

with European and other international partners. We need to

:35:48.:35:52.

do that and build our commitment to collaborations, not least of which

:35:53.:35:55.

is the science project that is critical in our area, the square

:35:56.:36:01.

kilometre array project which will see the creation of the world's

:36:02.:36:05.

largest radio telescope photo we must continue to be ambitious in

:36:06.:36:10.

backing a world leading scientific initiatives, it's got to be a clear

:36:11.:36:14.

priority. That's why I welcome the Prime Minister's demand and her

:36:15.:36:20.

ambition for a modern industrial strategy, one that fits a clear

:36:21.:36:25.

place of the value of science. I think that she was absolutely right

:36:26.:36:28.

that part of her campaign to win the leadership of the Conservative Party

:36:29.:36:33.

was to say it's hard to think of an industry with the greater strategic

:36:34.:36:38.

importance to Britain than it pharmaceutical industry and

:36:39.:36:39.

describing AstraZeneca in that speech in Birmingham was a huge

:36:40.:36:44.

significance for Michael Field as a jewel in the Crown of this country

:36:45.:36:47.

and an economy. The Prime Minister also gets this. She has learned

:36:48.:36:52.

lessons from Germany and from Australia who are setting a clear

:36:53.:36:57.

industrial strategies and we now need to do the same. Not seeking to

:36:58.:37:02.

pick winners but what we are seeking to do is to create the conditions to

:37:03.:37:06.

enable winners to emerge without being picked. A fundamental

:37:07.:37:11.

difference and we are well placed to do that. It's clear that as we look

:37:12.:37:20.

at our industrial strategy, science has a role to play, life sciences

:37:21.:37:24.

has a role to play particularly given the huge impact it makes not

:37:25.:37:28.

just on creating jobs, 62,000 jobs and life sciences but the

:37:29.:37:33.

productivity per employee that is so critical. ?330,000 of gross value

:37:34.:37:39.

added per employee, it's staggering and critical that we get behind this

:37:40.:37:43.

industry and other scientific endeavours to make sure that we

:37:44.:37:47.

realise the productivity improvements that are available and

:37:48.:37:50.

as we all know and this has it's critical that we tackle the gaps and

:37:51.:37:56.

productivity that have plagued us for too long. Here are some of the

:37:57.:38:00.

tasks I fitted a minister at the stage. Please continue to take

:38:01.:38:05.

action on infrastructure, it will be critical to underpin our economic

:38:06.:38:10.

performance, not just a jazz two by trans-Pennine links. Action on

:38:11.:38:17.

skills. Driving the quality of apprenticeships, I'm pleased that

:38:18.:38:20.

the Department for Education's full 16 skills Bunn has an emphasis on

:38:21.:38:24.

health and sciences that will be vital. I also urge ministers to

:38:25.:38:29.

speed up the adoption of new medical treatments by implementing the

:38:30.:38:34.

accelerated access review. I was delighted to read what the Health

:38:35.:38:37.

Secretary had to sit in his recent article that it's vital to life

:38:38.:38:43.

sciences and it's critical in improving patient outcomes as well.

:38:44.:38:48.

There's more that we need to see in the north. We talk a lot about the

:38:49.:38:53.

Golden triangle of Oxford and Cambridge but there are important

:38:54.:38:55.

clusters being developed in the North as well, not least of which is

:38:56.:38:59.

the life science corridor in Cheshire that links in with the

:39:00.:39:03.

university city of matches to as well. That is key for the Northern

:39:04.:39:12.

powerhouse. That means we need more in way of the catapult centres being

:39:13.:39:16.

created as a network. I'm delighted we are seeing one in launched in the

:39:17.:39:22.

North in orderly park with the medicines technology catapult but we

:39:23.:39:26.

also need to have the antimicrobial resistance centre located there as

:39:27.:39:32.

well. As we do this we will build confidence in business as well. I've

:39:33.:39:35.

already talked about in my intervention with the Minister,

:39:36.:39:39.

AstraZeneca's investment in the northern Macclesfield which is most

:39:40.:39:47.

welcome. Does my honourable friend agree that actually part of the EU

:39:48.:39:51.

regulations on phase one clinical trials have not been helpful and

:39:52.:39:54.

this is part of one of the opportunities we may have going

:39:55.:40:00.

forward is? Absolutely, we need to seize those opportunities and get

:40:01.:40:05.

behind science and get behind life sciences and looking at local

:40:06.:40:09.

examples. Where AstraZeneca decided to relocate to an Cambridge we see

:40:10.:40:15.

600 jobs being created in just a couple of years, highly important

:40:16.:40:21.

jobs for the North. It's not just about life sciences, I've already

:40:22.:40:26.

talked about and I hope ministers will support me in driving for it to

:40:27.:40:30.

be nominated for a world Heritage site which will be key to celebrate

:40:31.:40:37.

the heritage that site makes for the North and the visceral economy.

:40:38.:40:42.

I will come in my closing remarks the work the government is doing to

:40:43.:40:47.

re-examine its excellent work in research and development tax credits

:40:48.:40:52.

and allowances and it's helped underline how important sciences are

:40:53.:40:57.

and to show that the UK economy is open for business and I'm pleased

:40:58.:41:01.

that the Chancellor has indicated that there will be a review of the

:41:02.:41:06.

tax environment to make sure that we can build on the introduction of

:41:07.:41:09.

above line tax credits to show we are even more competitive. I can

:41:10.:41:14.

match the honourable member, the chair of the side select committee

:41:15.:41:18.

for his Christmas closing but all I will see in the words of one of my

:41:19.:41:22.

constituents and one of the great Christmas jingles is that it's time

:41:23.:41:24.

for us now to look to the future it's only just begun.

:41:25.:41:34.

Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I say to the honourable gentleman who just

:41:35.:41:41.

spoke that apropos to the last line of the report, both my honourable

:41:42.:41:45.

friend from Blakley and Broughton and myself, having known he would do

:41:46.:41:49.

that, we would never have voted for it in the first place, but

:41:50.:41:53.

nonetheless I am delighted to be here this evening to support the

:41:54.:41:58.

committee 's report and to discuss this extremely grave and urgent

:41:59.:42:02.

matter in the few minutes that I have. I shall try to be as brief as

:42:03.:42:12.

possible. I congratulate the honourable member for Richmond Park

:42:13.:42:14.

on a very coherent and well delivered maiden speech. I would say

:42:15.:42:18.

to her that I disagree with her over Heathrow, but I do agree with her

:42:19.:42:24.

over Brexit and exiting the European Union. I will set out my position

:42:25.:42:31.

briefly, if I may. As I told the PM at the statement on the servants --

:42:32.:42:35.

27th of June following a referendum, that in all of my almost 25 years

:42:36.:42:40.

now as a member of this house, when faced with any difficult matter I

:42:41.:42:43.

have always regarded my primary responsibility is being towards the

:42:44.:42:47.

people of Lewisham West and Penge. They voted by something of the order

:42:48.:42:53.

of 2-1 to remain in the European Union which is very convenient for

:42:54.:42:58.

me because I share that judgment. That is why just the week before

:42:59.:43:06.

last I voted against the government amendment to the opposition day

:43:07.:43:14.

motion on the timetable for article 50 and I was in a substantial

:43:15.:43:18.

minority and I accept that, and I will probably remain in that

:43:19.:43:22.

minority because I have told my constituents that I will not vote

:43:23.:43:25.

for anything which undermines our relationship with the European

:43:26.:43:29.

Union. My position is that we should really sought more effort to reform

:43:30.:43:34.

the institutions of the European Union but that chance has now gone

:43:35.:43:38.

and I accept what will happen in the future. Others have written to me

:43:39.:43:44.

saying it is a betrayal of democracy but this has collectively may well

:43:45.:43:50.

have two reserve -- represent the British people overall, but any

:43:51.:43:53.

individual member of this has really only represents the people who vote

:43:54.:43:58.

for them, and I am quite happy if I have got this issue Ronkainen and

:43:59.:44:00.

that eventuality has been known to occur in the past, I will happily go

:44:01.:44:07.

back to the map the next election and rest on their judgment. I do not

:44:08.:44:13.

believe it is in the best interests of this country or the constituents

:44:14.:44:18.

of the city in which my constituency is part, to leave the EU, and I

:44:19.:44:24.

shall not vote for it. It is no betrayal or denial of democracy, as

:44:25.:44:29.

some have suggested, for members to represent their constituents to the

:44:30.:44:34.

best of their ability. This is an extremely important issue, as many

:44:35.:44:37.

others have said in this debate, science and research, Britain and

:44:38.:44:42.

the UK are amongst the international leaders of this some people always

:44:43.:44:46.

say British is best almost in regard -- almost regardless of what it is,

:44:47.:44:55.

but in this field, science and research, technology, there is a

:44:56.:44:59.

clear and strong case to be made that Britain is in a particularly

:45:00.:45:03.

strong position and what we have seen, I think, over the recent past

:45:04.:45:09.

in today's debate is widespread concern at the uncertainty into

:45:10.:45:15.

which British science and technology has been placed by the decision of

:45:16.:45:21.

the 23rd of June and as an indication of just how much things

:45:22.:45:25.

have changed in the intervening almost six months, when the

:45:26.:45:31.

committee under the previous chair did a report earlier this year into

:45:32.:45:38.

the EU regulation of life sciences, we took evidence in March and April

:45:39.:45:43.

last year and published the first report of the 19 -- 20 60s/ 70s

:45:44.:45:50.

version and will receive 19 written submissions. The report about this

:45:51.:46:04.

debate and the Minister is play some evidence from him in October and

:46:05.:46:09.

that enquiry given an extremely changed landscape of the science and

:46:10.:46:12.

research background attracted no less than 264 written submissions.

:46:13.:46:21.

From nearly all of EU research universities in these situations

:46:22.:46:26.

have been mentioned today, many more from academics and researchers who

:46:27.:46:31.

are individually concerned precisely about the position they have been

:46:32.:46:36.

left in. I accept it will not be easy to provide the assurances in

:46:37.:46:42.

the short term. I dissent from something one of my honourable

:46:43.:46:44.

friends on this side said earlier, that we want to get on with it and

:46:45.:46:50.

do it quickly. I accept the value of clarity in the short-term but I want

:46:51.:46:57.

to make sure, despite my better judgment, that we get this right and

:46:58.:47:01.

it's better to get it right then get it soon and if it's possible to do

:47:02.:47:06.

both then all well and good. I think all members, not just the members

:47:07.:47:11.

who are here today for this debate have received numerous submissions

:47:12.:47:13.

recently about this debate this evening from a wide variety of

:47:14.:47:18.

medical charities, universities and other organisations. I haven't time

:47:19.:47:24.

to read it all out now but I commend the submission from the Royal

:47:25.:47:29.

Society, which highlights a number of categories which need to be

:47:30.:47:32.

addressed. Others have mentioned this. People, networks and

:47:33.:47:37.

collaboration, investment and regulation. Those are cue areas

:47:38.:47:51.

which we must address. I would say, actually, nearshore providing

:47:52.:47:52.

clarity to people, the government could take the smart step of

:47:53.:47:54.

guaranteeing the position of EU nationals in the UK now and then go

:47:55.:47:57.

with a strong hand to the negotiations after article 54 equal

:47:58.:47:59.

treatment of British National Party that. In conclusion, the result of

:48:00.:48:02.

the referendum has raised serious questions over the future of a

:48:03.:48:05.

number of vital industries and activities in the United Kingdom.

:48:06.:48:09.

Financial services may be particularly exposed but I believe

:48:10.:48:12.

research science research is equally significant to the well-being of our

:48:13.:48:18.

people and omit the numerous complexities of redesigning our

:48:19.:48:21.

relationship and our future relationship with the European Union

:48:22.:48:25.

the government must award of it can as soon as it can to resolve the

:48:26.:48:28.

serious issues facing the entire scientific and research community.

:48:29.:48:34.

Thank you for calling me to speak in this debate. I welcome the fact that

:48:35.:48:38.

this debate is happening in government time and I was delighted

:48:39.:48:42.

to support the backbench application for it and it is a pleasure to

:48:43.:48:46.

follow the honourable gentleman, the member for Lewisham West and Penge

:48:47.:48:49.

and in her absence I want to congratulate the member of

:48:50.:48:51.

Parliament for Richmond Park. Had she been here I would gently point

:48:52.:48:56.

out to her that Richard III is a popular moniker in Leicestershire

:48:57.:49:02.

and has been very good for our tourist industry. It is important to

:49:03.:49:08.

my constituency and constituents because Loughborough University is

:49:09.:49:11.

at the heart of the constituency. As well as potential life science

:49:12.:49:14.

opportunities at the Charnwood campus. It is a shame the science

:49:15.:49:18.

minister is not still at his place because I hoped he might have an

:49:19.:49:25.

early Christmas present for us in stating an opportunity for that

:49:26.:49:29.

Charnwood campus, although I do not expecting to make that announcement

:49:30.:49:33.

this afternoon. I want to get the other business organisations reliant

:49:34.:49:36.

on science and research in our local area, including Leicester

:49:37.:49:40.

University. The science minister recently visited he will know that

:49:41.:49:45.

according to the 2014 research excellence framework 65% of the

:49:46.:49:50.

academic staff are involved in internationally leading research,

:49:51.:49:54.

putting the University 17th out of 154 higher educational institutes.

:49:55.:49:57.

They are tenth in England for research intensity and generate in

:49:58.:50:02.

excess of ?40 million a year in research grants. Art experience,

:50:03.:50:08.

which is directly relevant to the investor concerns about EU funding

:50:09.:50:12.

and collaboration. I think it is right to recognise this and previous

:50:13.:50:16.

government 's commitments to science and research funding and I want to

:50:17.:50:19.

pay tribute to the science minister who is now backing in its place

:50:20.:50:24.

anti-will have heard about my request for an early Christmas

:50:25.:50:30.

present, and also the member for Mid Norfolk and the Minister for haven't

:50:31.:50:34.

have fought the science corner in budgets and Autumn Statement and

:50:35.:50:37.

spending rounds because this government is delivering on its

:50:38.:50:41.

manifesto commitment to protect the science capital budget and the

:50:42.:50:44.

budget will rise in cash terms every year in this Parliament. It is there

:50:45.:50:49.

to say that in the general hubbub around the 23rd of June science and

:50:50.:50:54.

research funding perhaps wasn't at the forefront of the campaigning.

:50:55.:50:58.

Perhaps people don't always understand, I certainly didn't

:50:59.:51:04.

before becoming a member of Parliament for Loughborough and

:51:05.:51:07.

Loughborough University what Brexit might mean for innovation and jobs

:51:08.:51:10.

and Britain's place in the world. The chairman of the science and

:51:11.:51:13.

technology committee was right when he said that how this aspect Brexit

:51:14.:51:18.

is handled, and I am paraphrasing here, it goes to the heart of

:51:19.:51:22.

whether we remain an outward facing nation, leading the world in

:51:23.:51:27.

research and cutting-edge technology or whether we see to that position

:51:28.:51:30.

to other countries. One local business put it to me that being in

:51:31.:51:34.

the EU puts us in a much larger market than the UK alone and it

:51:35.:51:39.

helps to attract and employ the best people to compete in fierce

:51:40.:51:41.

international markets in the UK should be seen as modern, open and

:51:42.:51:45.

inclusive to invite further investment. I know that some on my

:51:46.:51:50.

benches are going to disagree about the terms on which we conclude

:51:51.:51:55.

Brexit, but I think we can agree from figures already

:51:56.:52:06.

cited the UK research is enormously influential around the world. What

:52:07.:52:10.

was missing before June 23 was just how important that EU research

:52:11.:52:12.

funding is in supporting the UK's research and how much that funding

:52:13.:52:15.

is at risk at the moment. It is not just about money, it is about things

:52:16.:52:18.

like uniform regulations, and that is something which shouldn't be

:52:19.:52:21.

overlooked in future negotiations and agreements. Advances in research

:52:22.:52:24.

and consequent benefits to the society and economy could not be

:52:25.:52:27.

realised by placing the same level of funding through a UK funding

:52:28.:52:31.

body. Loughborough University tell me that urgent action is required to

:52:32.:52:38.

guarantee UK participation, EU research networks, post-Brexit,

:52:39.:52:41.

including continuing to contribute EU research problems -- programmes

:52:42.:52:47.

initiated in the years after invoking article 50. We all have

:52:48.:52:51.

anecdotes that research bids have been dropped completely due to the

:52:52.:52:58.

events of 23rd of June. But I know of one case where the UK was invited

:52:59.:53:03.

back into the project following the Treasury statement in August on

:53:04.:53:07.

underwriting UK participation and that demonstrates how important that

:53:08.:53:10.

announcement and continuing announcements in the same vein are

:53:11.:53:13.

and I welcome the Chancellor giving that commitment. We have already

:53:14.:53:18.

heard about the demands for the UK to be associated and have associated

:53:19.:53:23.

countries spacious -- status and/or third country status which would be

:53:24.:53:31.

much less satisfactory. I have a nonuniversity example, of Meadow

:53:32.:53:34.

Link East Midlands who have supported over 1000 companies in

:53:35.:53:41.

their development of innovations project that they ran. They have

:53:42.:53:47.

three new ER DEF projects that we will continue to sport in the next

:53:48.:53:51.

couple of years and it is worth noting that they have been the only

:53:52.:53:54.

source of funding for business innovation projects available to

:53:55.:54:00.

them since 2010. Over the last seven years MediLink East Midlands has

:54:01.:54:05.

delivered an intensive programme of innovation support to the life

:54:06.:54:09.

sciences sector. It supports over 1000 companies and it means a GDA of

:54:10.:54:15.

over 8.2 million and safeguarding many jobs and 25 new product

:54:16.:54:20.

launches. We have heard that none of this is possible without talking

:54:21.:54:23.

about people. This is top of the worry list for those most affected

:54:24.:54:28.

by this debate. We have already heard about how much money

:54:29.:54:32.

International students bring, ?11 billion to the UK economy each year,

:54:33.:54:36.

they also make an important cultural contribution. In 2012 and 2013 5.5%

:54:37.:54:44.

of students in the UK were from EU countries generating billions of

:54:45.:54:47.

pounds for the UK economy and sustaining 34,000 jobs in local

:54:48.:54:51.

communities. I can tell the house that as a local member of Parliament

:54:52.:54:54.

representing a large university they are not always high-value

:54:55.:55:11.

jobs, they are cleaners and cooks and administrators that maybe

:55:12.:55:14.

universities function. Leaving to one side the other jobs created

:55:15.:55:16.

locally that rely on the university, such as retail and leisure. I echo

:55:17.:55:19.

the calls of the member for Bath that students should not be taken

:55:20.:55:21.

into account in net migration numbers. I welcome the Prime

:55:22.:55:24.

Minister 's statement about an early deal on the rights of EU citizens

:55:25.:55:26.

and I continue to push ministers to honour that. We are going to have by

:55:27.:55:29.

2019 and new immigration policy, a new trading policy and we look

:55:30.:55:32.

forward to a new industrial strategy and we must have a new relationship

:55:33.:55:35.

that enables our institutions to take part in EU funding for science

:55:36.:55:44.

and research. The debate about leaving the EU and science is not

:55:45.:55:49.

unique in having myths associated with it. There are two myths I would

:55:50.:55:55.

really like to talk about today. The first one is, and it has been

:55:56.:56:00.

mentioned by a number of people, the problems with scientific

:56:01.:56:03.

collaboration and financing. It has been well documented and elucidate

:56:04.:56:13.

it that this country benefits in its research budget as a net gain in

:56:14.:56:17.

research. It has also been pointed out that we are a net donor when it

:56:18.:56:23.

comes to the overall European funding. What is often not stated is

:56:24.:56:27.

that when you look at the science budget as a whole we are a net

:56:28.:56:28.

contributor. Gerry 's sciences funded through the

:56:29.:56:42.

European development fund. It should be possible with human ingenuity to

:56:43.:56:48.

sort out that funding issue was that second late on collaboration, one of

:56:49.:56:53.

my honourable friend 's mentioned 17th-century science. Isaac Newton

:56:54.:57:00.

put his theory of gravity together while there was a plague going on.

:57:01.:57:05.

He used the work of Johann Kepler who put his work together stealing

:57:06.:57:11.

work in Denmark and working on the Italian and Polish work as a German

:57:12.:57:17.

well the 30 year war was going on. Science finds a way to collaborate

:57:18.:57:23.

across all sorts of boundaries. I want to quote really from the

:57:24.:57:29.

science and technology committee is report that my honourable friend

:57:30.:57:35.

from Lewisham referred to with the new regulation of life sciences

:57:36.:57:38.

which was published a week before the EU referendum. This was passed

:57:39.:57:45.

unanimously by the different parties on the committee after some debate I

:57:46.:57:50.

have to say. It's worth reading because the myth is that the

:57:51.:57:53.

European Union is pro-science and is good for science. The committee 's

:57:54.:58:00.

enquiries showed some resistance from the European Commission to

:58:01.:58:03.

evidence -based policy making and science including the hostility to

:58:04.:58:10.

GM organisms and an unscientific news of the precautionary principle.

:58:11.:58:18.

The clinical trials directive on the electromagnetic field directive as

:58:19.:58:22.

well as the sacking of Professor Anne Glover, the EU is hardly a body

:58:23.:58:27.

with a good record on science, the sacking of Anne Glover was a

:58:28.:58:31.

disgrace, she was sacked not because she was a poor sciences, she was

:58:32.:58:37.

sacked because she was a good scientists giving evidence about GM

:58:38.:58:40.

foods which Greenpeace quite disgracefully lobbied against her

:58:41.:58:44.

staying in the commission. Spineless as ever they sacked her. The

:58:45.:58:51.

clinical trials directive has already been referred to, it was not

:58:52.:58:56.

only a bad directive that led to science leaving the EU because it

:58:57.:59:04.

was ineffective, it took too long, it was inconsistently applied and

:59:05.:59:07.

there are new regulation is that the EU is now proposing for 2018 which

:59:08.:59:14.

hopefully will be more effective but it's taken 20 years while science,

:59:15.:59:22.

scientists and science have been leaving the EU to put the directive

:59:23.:59:29.

right. The electromagnetic field directive was relatively quick in

:59:30.:59:37.

being rectified and only took ten years to put that right, which was

:59:38.:59:45.

hindering work on machines are used for diagnosing cancer is and other

:59:46.:59:58.

diseases using magnetic resonance spectroscopy and that was being

:59:59.:00:02.

hindered by the directive and to the EU ten years to put that right.

:00:03.:00:13.

There was one phthalate that was banned so the EU then found another

:00:14.:00:19.

series of them, almost the first lesson that any people gets in

:00:20.:00:24.

chemistry is to point out that sodium chloride is essential for

:00:25.:00:28.

life and potassium chloride as a poison, you can say because one

:00:29.:00:33.

phthalate might poison rats which was the evidence -based they were

:00:34.:00:41.

using but all phthalates with poison rats, the overuse of the

:00:42.:00:45.

precautionary principle which means the ban on GM foods is continued,

:00:46.:00:52.

that this country does not have the benefit of blight free potato

:00:53.:01:00.

because of that and many other agricultural products which would

:01:01.:01:04.

have been of benefit to us during the referendum debate we were told

:01:05.:01:10.

how did the EU was for industry. I did get tired of pointing out that

:01:11.:01:16.

our agrochemical industry had almost disappeared because of the

:01:17.:01:22.

commission and the EU's attitude to science. Two other agencies that are

:01:23.:01:31.

not EU agencies that have been mentioned in the debate, I will

:01:32.:01:35.

referred to as indicating how anti-scientific the EU is. Once the

:01:36.:01:41.

European Space Agency, which is an excellent organisation with some

:01:42.:01:47.

very good work indeed. When they visited it in Rome just before the

:01:48.:01:54.

last general election. The senior scientists were desperate to keep

:01:55.:01:59.

the commission out of their work. They were worried about the

:02:00.:02:02.

anti-scientific attitude and the Galileo project which is partly

:02:03.:02:13.

funded by the European Commission and the European Space Agency use it

:02:14.:02:18.

is three times over budget and is only halfway through and has taken

:02:19.:02:25.

three times as long to complete as was expected. I will friend from

:02:26.:02:31.

Lewisham said it was better to get it right. Not get it right.

:02:32.:02:51.

Following the referendum I've been working very closely with

:02:52.:02:55.

institutions and businesses in my consistency this includes not only

:02:56.:03:32.

Plymouth University. The Marine biological Association which was set

:03:33.:03:37.

up in 1870s to explore that we could never overfished our waters and

:03:38.:03:42.

Plymouth Marine laboratories. PML did a great deal of research into

:03:43.:03:46.

CO2 emissions and global warming and are not surprised the Captain Robert

:03:47.:03:52.

Falk and Scott was a Plymouth by as well. About two p tribute to the

:03:53.:04:01.

chief executive of PML for the work that he and his team have done in

:04:02.:04:07.

preparing today's speech. Both PML and the NBA do much for science and

:04:08.:04:12.

technological research, not only on science West but then the whole

:04:13.:04:18.

country. They have done much research into the movement of

:04:19.:04:22.

plankton in and around Antarctica and this is a key part of fishing

:04:23.:04:27.

diet, if you take out the plankton all those fish which we are eating

:04:28.:04:31.

wouldn't happen and that's why I was pleased that the recent Autumn

:04:32.:04:36.

Statement the chance as the government is committed to making

:04:37.:04:41.

science and research a linchpin of our economy after Brexit by taking

:04:42.:04:45.

steps towards increasing scientific spending as the science and

:04:46.:04:48.

technology committee has previously urged. The government has provided

:04:49.:04:55.

the reassurance to the science and research community by promising to

:04:56.:05:00.

underwrite the payment of EU grants extending beyond the point when the

:05:01.:05:06.

UK believes the European Union. It's very interesting. This is more

:05:07.:05:09.

important than ever because a government study recently found that

:05:10.:05:14.

for every pound of public investment in research and development the

:05:15.:05:21.

private sector puts another 126% on average and that is a pretty good

:05:22.:05:25.

return as far as I'm concerned. I'm unashamedly pro-science, the

:05:26.:05:31.

contribute to economic growth, new goods and services, attracting in

:05:32.:05:36.

new jobs. When the former Prime Minister announced the referendum,

:05:37.:05:44.

my local paper the great Plymouth Herald ran an article entitled 19

:05:45.:05:48.

things EU funding has done for Plymouth and let me just also say

:05:49.:05:53.

that in 2020 we will be commemorating the Mayflower leaving

:05:54.:05:59.

Plymouth to go and find the American colonies and interesting enough the

:06:00.:06:02.

strap line for Plymouth used to be the spirit of discovery but then we

:06:03.:06:06.

had said Francis Drake and an enormous amount of scientists who

:06:07.:06:10.

have come from that. 16 of those 19 projects sit within my constituency

:06:11.:06:16.

with many involved in science and research and ensure this level of

:06:17.:06:20.

funding is vital for the industry and for my constituents. I recognise

:06:21.:06:27.

all EU funding is not so well-paid but I would encourage the science

:06:28.:06:30.

and technology committee to undertake enquiry into how this can

:06:31.:06:35.

be improved as well. Statistics on the UK participation on the new

:06:36.:06:41.

Horizon, published by the Department for business, energy and industrial

:06:42.:06:45.

strategy earlier this month indicated the UK ranks first in

:06:46.:06:47.

terms of participation within the programme. Previously published

:06:48.:06:53.

statistics show the UK-based researchers need for more projects

:06:54.:06:58.

in Horizon 2020 than any other nation. As we leave the EU I would

:06:59.:07:02.

like the British Government to continue in investing in research

:07:03.:07:08.

and development and in science organisations not just in the EU but

:07:09.:07:12.

to use this opportunity to forge new alliances with our non-European

:07:13.:07:18.

partners in the US, a significant amount of research and development

:07:19.:07:21.

taking place and of course the far east including South Korea. Although

:07:22.:07:27.

the costs of development in research might not be more is less in the

:07:28.:07:31.

short term I hope that market forces will make sure we bring that down.

:07:32.:07:35.

One of the contentious issues which we've heard about the whole issue of

:07:36.:07:40.

immigration. I quite understand the government's position and I'm not

:07:41.:07:45.

wanting to take out the student population but I think it is really

:07:46.:07:50.

important that we make sure the government is much more proactive in

:07:51.:07:53.

talking about the number of students who are making up inside that whole

:07:54.:07:59.

thing. I'm aware that the government has got to do some work on that

:08:00.:08:04.

whilst I welcome that any non-UK EU citizen who lived in this country

:08:05.:08:09.

for five years will be allowed to remain here, I believe the

:08:10.:08:12.

government must get the balance right between protecting those

:08:13.:08:15.

researchers who contribute so much to our science and technology and

:08:16.:08:18.

also listening to the very real concerns of this house have heard on

:08:19.:08:24.

the doorsteps during the course of the referendum campaign on

:08:25.:08:29.

immigration. June's referendum, Vote Leave the European Union was an

:08:30.:08:36.

historic one but that has provided uncertainty but huge amounts of

:08:37.:08:39.

opportunity for the science and technology sectors. Let's seize this

:08:40.:08:41.

opportunity to show the world Britain is open for business and

:08:42.:08:45.

ready to lead on the front when it comes to improve the lives of

:08:46.:08:49.

everyone around the world through science and invention.

:08:50.:08:57.

This is a very welcomed a bit and I congratulate the government for

:08:58.:09:01.

recognised that members of this house are very worried about how the

:09:02.:09:05.

panellist applies to take Britain out of the EU and what the fine

:09:06.:09:09.

print of Brexit will be not least for science and research and the

:09:10.:09:13.

many interlinked sectors and economies. The impact on our

:09:14.:09:19.

universities and their ability to maintain immense contributions to

:09:20.:09:22.

science and research is one of the many concerning and complex

:09:23.:09:27.

challenges Brexit throws up. The wide role played by our universities

:09:28.:09:31.

cannot be underestimated. Universities are engines for so much

:09:32.:09:37.

in our economy and our society. According to the ISS degenerate and

:09:38.:09:41.

annual output of ?73 billion for the UK economy, around ?11 billion of

:09:42.:09:48.

export earnings for the UK. They create jobs, drive innovation,

:09:49.:09:54.

support growth and are recognised for their integrity, quality and

:09:55.:09:58.

innovation by the rest of the world. The regional and local level their

:09:59.:10:02.

importance is no less noteworthy. The University of Bradford in my

:10:03.:10:06.

hometown is an important and central part of the city in many different

:10:07.:10:10.

and positive ways. The university supports local and regional growth

:10:11.:10:15.

and encourages enterprise, business development, attracts investment and

:10:16.:10:18.

talent and provides and creates employment. Bradford is not unique

:10:19.:10:26.

in this regard. For universities are dynamic and make an invaluable

:10:27.:10:28.

contribution to the UK's place in the world. Brexit must not be

:10:29.:10:33.

allowed to undo that either intentionally or inadvertently. The

:10:34.:10:37.

government must protect and enhance the way in which British

:10:38.:10:40.

universities bring about positive impacts on behalf of the UK, not

:10:41.:10:43.

least in the area of science and research. Collaborative working with

:10:44.:10:48.

the EU in this field makes an enormous contribution to Britain.

:10:49.:10:53.

The Association for modern universities in its own report on

:10:54.:10:56.

the challenges of Brexit stresses the value of cross-country

:10:57.:11:02.

collaboration between academics in different EU countries cannot be

:11:03.:11:05.

undervalued. The collaborative research and the relationships that

:11:06.:11:10.

stem from it needs to be promoted as part of the negotiations to leave

:11:11.:11:15.

the EU. This is just as important as guaranteeing funding. In 2014-15, UK

:11:16.:11:21.

universities received ?836 million in research funding from EU sources.

:11:22.:11:28.

50% of the total value of all research funding that year.

:11:29.:11:34.

Million-plus said this proves more funding from UK sources. The

:11:35.:11:39.

Alzheimer Society offers one example of the importance of research for

:11:40.:11:44.

and how about Brexit may damage Britain.

:11:45.:11:49.

The society Prince at the British is a global leader in dementia research

:11:50.:11:57.

but this issue could progress as we exit the UK. Myself and the

:11:58.:12:02.

Alzheimer's Society origin the government to prioritise securing

:12:03.:12:05.

continued access to EU funding schemes are programmes for research

:12:06.:12:10.

as negotiates a new relationship with the EU post Brexit. It is one

:12:11.:12:16.

example of how EU collaboration and investment can be critical, and

:12:17.:12:19.

there are many others. Collaborations are vital for

:12:20.:12:22.

science. Scientists should be able to work with the best in their

:12:23.:12:26.

field, irrespective of their geographical location and

:12:27.:12:29.

institutional affiliation. Researchers collaborate. They

:12:30.:12:36.

overcome all sorts of institutional and financial difficulties by

:12:37.:12:39.

working together and pooling resources together. EU funding has

:12:40.:12:43.

played a part in overcoming the sorts of challenges researchers

:12:44.:12:50.

face. I am sure I speak for many universities and all those

:12:51.:12:53.

organisations who are beneficiaries of the research they do when I urge

:12:54.:12:57.

the government to look seriously at how to make up shortfalls in funding

:12:58.:13:01.

from research that arises from Britain's departure from the EU post

:13:02.:13:06.

Brexit. I hope the government will commit to making sure any lost

:13:07.:13:10.

research and innovation funding arising from Brexit is replaced and

:13:11.:13:16.

I hope the government will reassure our research community and preserve

:13:17.:13:19.

our international reputation by committing to a real terms increase

:13:20.:13:24.

in science funding. Safeguarding what we have and reassuring those

:13:25.:13:29.

with a vested interest is only the first step. The next phase will be

:13:30.:13:34.

to ensure that the ways in which Britain works with the world does

:13:35.:13:38.

not lose sight with the vital and specific needs of our universities

:13:39.:13:43.

and research they carried out. The government will not just need a

:13:44.:13:47.

long-term plan for leaving the EU but a plan for engaging with the

:13:48.:13:49.

rest of the world on many important and fundamental levels.

:13:50.:14:00.

Scientific research is one of the United Kingdom 's biggest assets and

:14:01.:14:07.

we must see that British -- Brexit provides Britain with an

:14:08.:14:10.

opportunity. We are in a position to critique on aspects of EU

:14:11.:14:13.

legislation that hold us back holdback development and to adopt

:14:14.:14:17.

the policies that have benefited us and create a Britain that is

:14:18.:14:21.

increasingly outward looking and pioneering in science and research.

:14:22.:14:25.

Many sectors claim that their people are the greatest asset but I think

:14:26.:14:30.

this is most clear in the area of scientific research and innovation,

:14:31.:14:33.

where individual qualities council so much. Skills need to be developed

:14:34.:14:40.

over a number of years and there is a great deal of specialisation.

:14:41.:14:47.

Recruitment for talented scientist is already challenging and the

:14:48.:14:50.

potential for a barrier to go up between the UK and the EU was a

:14:51.:14:55.

great concern. I was pleased that the Prime Minister attempted to

:14:56.:14:59.

resolve this problem and enable the 1.3 British subjects living in the

:15:00.:15:03.

EU to remain there and the 3.3 million EU citizens to remain here,

:15:04.:15:07.

but I was disappointed that Donald Tusk, playing politics with people's

:15:08.:15:13.

lives, rebuffed the proposal. When discussing migration, especially in

:15:14.:15:16.

the context Brexit, we have to get the tone and values right. During

:15:17.:15:21.

the referendum campaign I talked to hundreds of people about what it

:15:22.:15:26.

would mean to leave the European Union, and controlling our borders

:15:27.:15:28.

was a significant concern, though not the greatest. I did not meet

:15:29.:15:33.

anyone who thought that we should stop scientists and engineers from

:15:34.:15:37.

coming to an settling in the UK. There is a desire that Britain

:15:38.:15:40.

should control her borders but also enable those who contribute to come

:15:41.:15:47.

here. This should give an huge reassurance to the scientific

:15:48.:15:50.

community that the British people greatly valued their contribution,

:15:51.:15:55.

no matter from where they came. I university sector as world leading

:15:56.:15:59.

with three in the world times University rankings top ten. There

:16:00.:16:04.

is only one other European University -- organisation in the

:16:05.:16:12.

top ten and that is Swiss. The whole European University sector post

:16:13.:16:15.

Brexit must retain its attractiveness to EU students and

:16:16.:16:18.

also enable more students to come from countries such as India by

:16:19.:16:22.

removing barriers to those students. Since students come for a set period

:16:23.:16:27.

of time for a specific purpose I also would make the case to take

:16:28.:16:31.

them out of our immigration figures so that the numbers reflect seeking

:16:32.:16:37.

to remain here. While leaving the EU has caused some to raise fears that

:16:38.:16:41.

this will lead us to becoming an inward looking nation, cut off from

:16:42.:16:46.

the world, and opportunities mostly prefer to be optimistic and Brexit

:16:47.:16:51.

is an opportunity to ensure that people have the skill and talent is

:16:52.:16:56.

that when it come to Britain so we have an immigration that works for

:16:57.:17:00.

everyone. The UK has been a net beneficiary of EU funding for

:17:01.:17:06.

research and benefited from the collaboration of EU programmes such

:17:07.:17:10.

as Horizon Twenty20, although in this debate we do need to be clear

:17:11.:17:16.

that our overall contributions massively outweighed any financial

:17:17.:17:21.

returns in this particular sector. Some countries receive most of their

:17:22.:17:24.

Horizon Twenty20 monies in structural funds to build up their

:17:25.:17:29.

levels of science but in Britain we largely receive money based on

:17:30.:17:35.

excellence. We ought to be clear that in this debate that scientists

:17:36.:17:39.

from across the EU gain enormously by collaborating with us. We ought

:17:40.:17:44.

not to think ourselves in a week and dependent position because we are

:17:45.:17:50.

not. Members may know concern is about funding were raised in the

:17:51.:17:55.

science and technology select committee seventh report of this

:17:56.:17:57.

session. I'm looking forward to the government 's response in the New

:17:58.:18:01.

Year. However, like many, I was encouraged by the recent government

:18:02.:18:05.

announcement to guarantee funding for participation and projects under

:18:06.:18:08.

the horizon Twenty20 initiative even if the project finishes after our

:18:09.:18:16.

departure. The Prime Minister 's announcement of additional funding

:18:17.:18:19.

for science and innovation of 2 million a year by 2021 through the

:18:20.:18:24.

new invert terrestrial strategy is welcome although I would like a

:18:25.:18:27.

little clarification as to where that money is to be spent. Since we

:18:28.:18:32.

will no longer be a member of the EU we will not receive any funding from

:18:33.:18:39.

Horizon Twenty20 's successor. Is it possible or expected that a

:18:40.:18:46.

proportion of this 2 billion may be used to buy into, in part, or in

:18:47.:18:53.

full, to Horizon Twenty20 's successor. Britain can participate

:18:54.:18:58.

in Horizon Twenty20 outside the EU according to the EU commission 's

:18:59.:19:05.

rules, just like Tunisia, Norway and Tunisia do. Brexit offers an

:19:06.:19:09.

opportunity to correct any failings in EU policy in science or research

:19:10.:19:15.

for example the clinical trials directive of 2001 which is widely

:19:16.:19:19.

seen as being a failure due to increased costs, delays and also

:19:20.:19:24.

differing interpretations across the EU. It is due to be replaced with a

:19:25.:19:29.

clinical trial regulation that is widely expected to be much better

:19:30.:19:33.

and is currently due to be implemented in October 20 18. It

:19:34.:19:39.

does demonstrate how slow the EU can be to amend and change regulation,

:19:40.:19:45.

this is taking nearly 20 years. In conclusion, I am glad to hear that

:19:46.:19:48.

their reassurances on the future of British science and its funding and

:19:49.:19:54.

also to note that the whole of the scientific community has a

:19:55.:19:56.

responsibility to ensure the future of British science and it is for

:19:57.:20:00.

each and every one of our scientists to go across the world to tell

:20:01.:20:03.

everyone that we are open for business and science has a bright

:20:04.:20:12.

future in the UK. I rise to speak in support of UK science and research

:20:13.:20:16.

and particularly for the two world-class universities in Bristol

:20:17.:20:20.

is, one in my constituency and the other just outside, University

:20:21.:20:22.

Bristol and the University of West of England and also the business and

:20:23.:20:27.

science incubators and catapults and other institutions that value and

:20:28.:20:31.

need a good research environment within the European Union. Since the

:20:32.:20:35.

referendum I have been talking with the universities about the impact of

:20:36.:20:39.

a possible exit from the EU on science and research. The science

:20:40.:20:48.

carried out at the University of is pioneering, from better early

:20:49.:20:50.

diagnosis of Alzheimer's disease to tackling antimicrobial resistance

:20:51.:20:52.

and food security, to understanding how we can prevent and stop violence

:20:53.:20:56.

against women. The University of Bristol has leading researchers

:20:57.:21:00.

doing vital work. Meanwhile across the city there is work on big data,

:21:01.:21:05.

developing flood resilience, improving air quality, shaping

:21:06.:21:08.

sustainable suburb of working on labour productivity and I am sure we

:21:09.:21:11.

will all agree these are very important things and if I may join

:21:12.:21:17.

in the Higgs boson name check, Mr Higgs was in the class of 1946 at

:21:18.:21:25.

Cotham School in Bristol West, which has educated not just Mr Higgs but

:21:26.:21:29.

my nephews and nieces are the sons of my honourable friend, the member

:21:30.:21:34.

for Bristol South, so it is a school of which I am very fond so I'm glad

:21:35.:21:38.

to get that mention in there. There are five cue issues of concern for

:21:39.:21:42.

science and research and they are linked. No single strand stands

:21:43.:21:48.

alone but they were bought out by the recent report. Funding has been

:21:49.:21:51.

mentioned quite a lot today so I will not dwell on it. People,

:21:52.:21:57.

collaboration and influence, regulation and facilities. As

:21:58.:22:02.

Professor Ian Diamond, Gerald universities UK policy network

:22:03.:22:05.

explained, there was no point having the regulatory framework if you do

:22:06.:22:08.

not have the talent. There was no point having talent if you don't

:22:09.:22:11.

have access to the grants. Chief development officer of innovate UK

:22:12.:22:15.

said we cannot look at each of these parts individually, we need a

:22:16.:22:19.

strategy and a plan which allows us to move the whole ecosystem forward

:22:20.:22:24.

because together they take world-class science and they'd turn

:22:25.:22:28.

it into jobs and growth and together they allow businesses to export and

:22:29.:22:32.

compete in wider markets and build broader partnerships. My honourable

:22:33.:22:38.

friend, the honourable member for Newcastle Central, said I was in

:22:39.:22:42.

favour of science for sciences site but it is a mess of critical

:22:43.:22:45.

importance at the moment that we are clear about the benefits of

:22:46.:22:50.

world-class universities. The presence of the universities in

:22:51.:22:53.

Bristol contributes such a lot, from the staff and the students and

:22:54.:22:57.

whether they decide to stay beyond the life of their research project,

:22:58.:23:05.

but some of them do not feel they should stay, they feel they should

:23:06.:23:09.

take the offer from the University in Berlin or Bonn or Copenhagen.

:23:10.:23:12.

Some of them say they feel like their families, when they have

:23:13.:23:15.

partners from the EU, are no longer feel welcome, and that is a great

:23:16.:23:20.

worry to me. Universities UK say they want the government to

:23:21.:23:24.

recognise that our universities are one of our country's best experts

:23:25.:23:28.

and they contribute indirectly through a long-term contribution to

:23:29.:23:36.

knowledge. All of this is already been said so wayward junket. I have

:23:37.:23:42.

every confidence that the universities of Bristol can compete

:23:43.:23:49.

whatever the circumstances they find themselves in at the circumstances

:23:50.:23:52.

need tackling. There are big universities such as those in my

:23:53.:23:56.

Conservative -- my constituency but I'm concerned about small

:23:57.:23:59.

universities that specialise in particular fields but are less

:24:00.:24:02.

equipped on the economies of scale than the large universities in

:24:03.:24:08.

weathering any storm. In Aberystwyth the Institute of biological

:24:09.:24:11.

environmental and rural sciences, where I have to declare in test,

:24:12.:24:15.

because my niece is a Ph.D. Student there, research there is pioneering

:24:16.:24:20.

ways for crops to resist disease in finding out what microbes living

:24:21.:24:24.

glaciers, but other small institutes such as the London School of

:24:25.:24:27.

tropical hygiene and schools for music and arts and the Royal

:24:28.:24:33.

agricultural University, they all have unique contributions to make,

:24:34.:24:36.

but I worry that their size will make it harder for them to weather

:24:37.:24:42.

the storm. I urge the government to consider the various options on our

:24:43.:24:44.

relationship with the EU through this lens. What will make it easier

:24:45.:24:50.

for our universities to continued to be the world-class institute is that

:24:51.:24:53.

they currently are? What agreements can we make for free movement of

:24:54.:24:59.

students and researchers? I will be open and honest in that I am a

:25:00.:25:02.

passionate believer in the value of free movement of people and I think

:25:03.:25:05.

universities have a strong case to make about why it applies to them.

:25:06.:25:08.

What is the best regulatory framework for us to be in in order

:25:09.:25:23.

to collaborate with other universities and how can we make

:25:24.:25:25.

sure new medical treatments are not delay to British people because of

:25:26.:25:27.

different rules? One way to ensure the government keep these in mind

:25:28.:25:30.

would be, as was mentioned earlier, to have a voice of science in the

:25:31.:25:33.

process. I am deeply concerned about the committee report that says the

:25:34.:25:40.

post of chief scientific adviser post has not had the advert go out

:25:41.:25:45.

yet. Finally I would like to ask the Minister to tell us at the end of

:25:46.:25:48.

this debate if they have considered the other recommendations in the

:25:49.:25:53.

report? Will the government commit to beeping student numbers out of

:25:54.:25:57.

immigration targets and caps? If they have not already prepared a

:25:58.:26:00.

response to the select committee, where will they do so? I hope the

:26:01.:26:05.

Minister will be able to answer some or ideally all of these questions

:26:06.:26:07.

because the production of knowledge is one of the things we do best in

:26:08.:26:11.

this country and I am proud of it in my own constituency. It is a

:26:12.:26:18.

pleasure to follow my honourable friend.

:26:19.:26:24.

But excellent embargoes has heard as a whole has been profound,

:26:25.:26:34.

especially in our grade universities. My constituency of

:26:35.:26:39.

Cambridge is particularly productive. The University of

:26:40.:26:41.

Cambridge has fostered over 100 Nobel Prize winners and the area

:26:42.:26:47.

around is home to a thriving network of technology companies. As we were

:26:48.:26:52.

once cautioned, unless we get smarter, we will get poorer. Eight

:26:53.:26:55.

years later at a time when our relationship with Europe is at a

:26:56.:27:00.

crucial junction, that is significant. Unfortunately, in the

:27:01.:27:05.

words of the trade union representing people, they said it is

:27:06.:27:10.

inescapable that UK science has taken a hit as a result of Brexit. I

:27:11.:27:15.

want the government to provide assurances to the EU nationals

:27:16.:27:19.

working in science and research around the country, existing staff

:27:20.:27:23.

need certainty, something sorely missing at the moment. I've visited

:27:24.:27:30.

a laboratory at the University of Cambridge as part of this pairing

:27:31.:27:36.

scheme and I met her neurologist studying autism and I spent much of

:27:37.:27:40.

the day with her and her colleagues, it was a brilliant and inspiring

:27:41.:27:43.

day. What was striking was the number of people working in the

:27:44.:27:47.

laboratory who were even new nationals. It is the same in

:27:48.:27:51.

laboratories around the country. The Royal Society tells us there are

:27:52.:28:00.

31,000 people working in the UK. The Institute outside Cambridge says

:28:01.:28:04.

nearly a third of their employees are non-UK EU nationals. Cancer

:28:05.:28:11.

Research UK, tell us that EU nationals were significant as part

:28:12.:28:15.

of their workforce, dedicated to beating cancer sooner, with 33% of

:28:16.:28:19.

the Ph.D. Students and 39% of the research Fellows non-UK EU

:28:20.:28:28.

nationals. Another laboratory says 45% of their post-doc researchers

:28:29.:28:34.

are from the EU and at the university came at as a whole, a

:28:35.:28:40.

quarter are EU nationals. They are undertaking valuable work across the

:28:41.:28:44.

UK to tackle global challenges and improve the lives of people and they

:28:45.:28:48.

make a huge contribution to UK science and research, but sadly,

:28:49.:28:52.

written evidence from the organisations I have mentioned,

:28:53.:28:55.

testifies to those people all feeling anxious and unwelcome,

:28:56.:28:59.

insecure or even abused, and concerned about their ability to

:29:00.:29:03.

continue working here, I find that genuinely horrifying and I urge the

:29:04.:29:07.

government today detail EU nationals working in UK science that they are

:29:08.:29:16.

welcome here. The evidence shows that the EU research who come here

:29:17.:29:20.

are the top of their field. Grant recipients in 2014 were non-UK EU

:29:21.:29:26.

citizens and the University of Cambridge argued that UK

:29:27.:29:29.

institutions risk using this talent and the accompanying funding, should

:29:30.:29:36.

EU nationals not be attracted to the UK. A potential consequence of any

:29:37.:29:40.

restrictions on freedom of movement and losing access if funding is not

:29:41.:29:44.

just about attracting talent, it is about retaining it. Of course, all

:29:45.:29:49.

this is not just about the UK standing, it is about scientific

:29:50.:29:52.

progress itself, collaboration and the pulling of talent is essential

:29:53.:29:58.

to innovation. The famous discovery of the construction of DNA involved

:29:59.:30:03.

a visiting US scientist and antibodies were developed by an

:30:04.:30:07.

Argentinian. Science knows no borders, so talented people and

:30:08.:30:11.

their ideas must be allowed to flow freely. EU citizens being required

:30:12.:30:17.

to apply for a Visa to work in UK universities poses a risk to the

:30:18.:30:23.

ability of universities to retain staff, it -- maintaining mobility

:30:24.:30:27.

and refusing to create barriers must be a priority and Brexit

:30:28.:30:30.

negotiations. I would like to conclude on a couple of other vital

:30:31.:30:35.

areas. I have spoken before about the importance of ensuring the UK

:30:36.:30:42.

has access to the regulatory framework. Project that importance

:30:43.:30:51.

-- reject that importance and access to new treatments will slow down,

:30:52.:30:56.

drugs prices will go up and our NHS will foot the bill. Our sector will

:30:57.:31:01.

sucked. Think a bridge there are over 106 to life science companies

:31:02.:31:04.

and of the country is that the single market, they will no longer

:31:05.:31:15.

be able to work the BMA. Sweden has reported to host the E M a

:31:16.:31:19.

headquarters. Our technology sector is reliant on maintaining the

:31:20.:31:23.

system. In this case ensuring that data protection rules are in line

:31:24.:31:30.

with the new general data protection regulation after Brexit. Data flows

:31:31.:31:35.

are essential everyone both our technology and financial services

:31:36.:31:40.

sectors to remain competitive. During an adjournment debate

:31:41.:31:43.

recently, the minister said we want a data protection framework that

:31:44.:31:47.

works best for the UK and meets our needs. Those consultations will be

:31:48.:31:51.

forthcoming. I wonder if we can now be told when those consultations

:31:52.:31:55.

will be published. He said that the government are considering all

:31:56.:31:57.

options for the most beneficial way of ensuring that the data protection

:31:58.:32:03.

regime continues to build confidence and trust, safeguard systems and

:32:04.:32:09.

supports people in a global data economy. Perhaps the Minister can

:32:10.:32:13.

outline some of those options. We need better answers from the

:32:14.:32:17.

government and soon or we risk seeing the advantages achieved by

:32:18.:32:27.

Britain at great cost. Thank you. I wanted to follow the previous

:32:28.:32:31.

Speaker from Cambridge and I feel that he has covered every corner of

:32:32.:32:35.

how important it is that science and the movement of people and

:32:36.:32:39.

scientists is kept in place. I don't really apologise about being here to

:32:40.:32:45.

speak on behalf of Northern Ireland, I was vice-chair of the Education

:32:46.:32:49.

Committee for three years and watched under the previous minister,

:32:50.:32:57.

cuts in the funding to teaching and to the whole of science and yet

:32:58.:33:01.

somehow, Northern Ireland remained up there, high with its results. We

:33:02.:33:04.

should note that this year, they have dropped some six places in the

:33:05.:33:11.

tables on science and we should keep that in mind. What I am really

:33:12.:33:17.

leading to and I spoke on this last week, that it is key to Northern

:33:18.:33:22.

Ireland, being an island with the land border to Ireland, that we keep

:33:23.:33:26.

our trade and keep our movement of people and it becomes even more

:33:27.:33:31.

essential to our economy. The universities themselves want all

:33:32.:33:38.

universities in the UK to thrive, Queen's University is part of the

:33:39.:33:43.

Russell group of universities but they see it as absolutely essential

:33:44.:33:47.

that we keep them ability of staff and students throughout the whole of

:33:48.:33:52.

Europe and that we keep the access to research funding and the

:33:53.:33:55.

collaboration in projects. That is the key and that is really what I

:33:56.:33:58.

asked the ministers when they are looking at Northern Ireland and

:33:59.:34:03.

Brexit, to put at number one. Putting research and development and

:34:04.:34:07.

the funding for the universities as one of our very top matters. We have

:34:08.:34:12.

Ulster university and Queen's University with the Magee campus in

:34:13.:34:21.

Londonderry and when it comes to funding, the Ulster university has

:34:22.:34:25.

9.9 million euros to date and is looking to try and get another 10.5

:34:26.:34:30.

million, Queens has attracted 61 million and wants to get more, but

:34:31.:34:35.

the message that they are really sending to us is that they need

:34:36.:34:39.

clarity. They want an end to the uncertainty, they know the funding

:34:40.:34:43.

is being guaranteed until when we leave, but after that they need to

:34:44.:34:47.

be able to promise something to the people they are trying to attract,

:34:48.:34:51.

so that we hold them there and do not leave them. If I can borrow a

:34:52.:34:54.

little bit of the Christmas spirit, someone said to me last week, that

:34:55.:34:59.

we should be following the star, all students follow the star, they want

:35:00.:35:08.

to go to that university where that star professor is and we have to

:35:09.:35:10.

make sure that we keep the key people in the universities. I think

:35:11.:35:13.

if there is a key message, please take that on board. I am grateful

:35:14.:35:17.

for what the Chancellor said and the clarification, but in our case in

:35:18.:35:20.

Northern Ireland, we need to know that that funding is going to be

:35:21.:35:25.

ring fenced and not lost in the Barnett Formula. It could go into

:35:26.:35:28.

the Barnett Formula and be spent with other things, we need to make

:35:29.:35:34.

sure that it comes through to the universities themselves. I was

:35:35.:35:38.

pleased to see the British academy, one of their key points was to pay

:35:39.:35:42.

particular that are critical attention to Northern Ireland and

:35:43.:35:45.

working with the Irish and another point that we need to remember, 50%

:35:46.:35:54.

of academic papers are written with international partners. That is how

:35:55.:35:57.

it should all remain, we should keep working together. It doesn't mean it

:35:58.:36:01.

all has to be with Europe, we can look outwards and that is what we

:36:02.:36:05.

should be doing, to gather in the specialists from throughout the

:36:06.:36:09.

whole world. Northern Ireland is well known for its aerospace,

:36:10.:36:14.

defence, pharmaceutical, medical and many areas and if I can give you one

:36:15.:36:21.

example, in cardiac, we have plenty of people who set examples, but we

:36:22.:36:24.

have to make sure that happens into the future. At the moment, the

:36:25.:36:31.

anecdotes that are coming back to us is that the Northern Ireland

:36:32.:36:35.

universities are losing out and that people are already looking elsewhere

:36:36.:36:38.

for collaboration. We have got to make sure we stop that happening

:36:39.:36:45.

today. 6% of the university of Ulster come from Europe, 30% of the

:36:46.:36:49.

staff from Queens come from Europe and really to make sure we keep

:36:50.:36:58.

people. Another point to take on board, the appellate system tells us

:36:59.:37:04.

the statistics that we are 9% down last year in students coming to

:37:05.:37:08.

Northern Ireland -- UCAS. It has been increasing every year until

:37:09.:37:13.

this year. That puts a key point at the top, we must look at what we are

:37:14.:37:18.

doing on science. I have pleaded enough, I hate always making

:37:19.:37:21.

Northern Ireland a special case, but it is our home and it is very

:37:22.:37:25.

important and we need to work and see every word drive. Few will be

:37:26.:37:34.

surprised if I approached the debate from a decidedly Scottish

:37:35.:37:37.

perspective, with five universities ranked in the top 200 academic

:37:38.:37:43.

institutions of the world, Scotland certainly punches above its weight,

:37:44.:37:48.

something reflected in the world renowned academic research carried

:37:49.:37:52.

out north of the border. The university of Edinburgh, for one

:37:53.:37:55.

example, the research carried out there is truly ground-breaking and

:37:56.:37:58.

you would be hard pushed to find someone who has not heard of Higgs

:37:59.:38:03.

boson or Dolly the sheep. It is little wonder that that university

:38:04.:38:08.

enjoys a consistent high placing in international league tables. We

:38:09.:38:12.

should rightly be concerned when this esteemed university, was of the

:38:13.:38:17.

risk of harm to the quality of its research posed by Brexit. In written

:38:18.:38:24.

evidence supplied to the committee, the institution gives a stark

:38:25.:38:28.

warning that our exit from the European Union could lead to fewer

:38:29.:38:32.

excellent research is being permitted to apply to universities

:38:33.:38:37.

here. If your international universities will be willing to

:38:38.:38:41.

collaborate with UK universities and researchers and that less funding

:38:42.:38:45.

could be available. There are arguments that this could lead to

:38:46.:38:49.

the loss of its global reputation, a loss of opportunities for UK

:38:50.:38:54.

researchers and scientists, and less high quality advice available to

:38:55.:38:58.

government and business. This could seriously impact on our ability to

:38:59.:39:04.

tackle global problems such as clean energy, food security and ageing

:39:05.:39:09.

populations. All the governments seem capable of doing is sowing more

:39:10.:39:13.

confusion with reports that the Home Office is now considering plans to

:39:14.:39:18.

almost half the numbers of international student visas issued.

:39:19.:39:23.

42% of the students at the university of Edinburgh Art EU and

:39:24.:39:26.

international students and these proposals will only compound the

:39:27.:39:32.

stark Brexit warning already issued. One positive measure that the

:39:33.:39:35.

government could take right now is to give clarity that the immigration

:39:36.:39:39.

rights of EU nationals currently living in Scotland will not change

:39:40.:39:44.

in the future. Such assurances would help forward planning and the

:39:45.:39:47.

retention of researchers and scientists. I recently received a

:39:48.:39:52.

letter from the principle of the university of the West of Scotland,

:39:53.:39:57.

which is planning to open a new state-of-the-art campus in my

:39:58.:40:01.

constituency. In the letter, he emphasised the huge importance of

:40:02.:40:06.

international students, not only to universities, but to the Society and

:40:07.:40:13.

economy. He cites a report which found that the university generates

:40:14.:40:19.

?530 million in Scotland and supports almost four and a half

:40:20.:40:25.

thousand jobs. A significant element of the strategy of the university is

:40:26.:40:29.

to grow the number of international students and it is my belief that

:40:30.:40:34.

the uncertainty caused by Brexit stands to seriously jeopardise this.

:40:35.:40:39.

The immigration status of EU nationals is not some negotiating

:40:40.:40:43.

peace for the Prime Minister and threatening it as such is causing

:40:44.:40:48.

damage. In addition to clarity, the government should be starting to

:40:49.:40:52.

give answers on future research funding. The university of the West

:40:53.:40:56.

of Scotland has received over 740,000 euros of funding, with

:40:57.:41:04.

Scottish higher education institutions receiving around 106 to

:41:05.:41:07.

5 million euros in total. The promise of a guarantee from the

:41:08.:41:12.

Treasury on the funding is welcome, but simply does not go far enough.

:41:13.:41:18.

The government needs to provide the necessary certainty, but academic

:41:19.:41:21.

and research institutions to know that they will have enough support

:41:22.:41:25.

for the duration of the projects and we need a clear sign of intent that

:41:26.:41:31.

the government will put in place an equivalent funding framework post

:41:32.:41:32.

Brexit. The decision to leave the EU will

:41:33.:41:44.

further exacerbate the government failures. The effect on the economy

:41:45.:41:51.

cannot be understated. The SNP Scottish Government takes a very

:41:52.:41:56.

different approach, fostering innovation, investment and

:41:57.:41:58.

internationalism. We want to see Scotland become a fairer and more

:41:59.:42:03.

competitive economy and you can be assured that those of us on these

:42:04.:42:10.

benches will not stand idly by and watch the Tories wage war on our

:42:11.:42:15.

world-class educational institutions. Almost six months

:42:16.:42:18.

after the vote to leave the EU it is time for the government to get its

:42:19.:42:22.

act together and to start getting answers and I hope the Minister will

:42:23.:42:30.

come up with some answers today. I am very grateful for the opportunity

:42:31.:42:35.

to speak in this important debate on a subject that is very close to my

:42:36.:42:41.

heart. As an NHS scientist before I came to this place I worked in a

:42:42.:42:45.

field that thrived on collaboration and I recognised no geographical

:42:46.:42:51.

boundaries. Our UK universities, as many have said, are brightly held in

:42:52.:42:55.

high esteem worldwide and we have 18 of the top 100 universities in the

:42:56.:43:01.

world including four in the top ten. I was pleased to hear the honourable

:43:02.:43:07.

member from South Antrim says even Brexiteers I remain this when it

:43:08.:43:16.

comes to our universities. You will get your chance. Considering Bridges

:43:17.:43:23.

science, it is well-known that Britain punches well above its

:43:24.:43:27.

weight in the International university league tables and it does

:43:28.:43:31.

so mainly thank to EU grants. It is not awash with funding and it has

:43:32.:43:36.

the lowest per capita spending on research of any G-7 country. The

:43:37.:43:42.

referendum outcome has added uncertainty to its implications for

:43:43.:43:46.

the higher placate -- higher education sector and it is easy to

:43:47.:43:49.

trot out the phrase Brexit means Brexit, but the devil is in the

:43:50.:43:53.

detail and for the future of science and research in this country that

:43:54.:43:59.

detail cannot be glossed over in a sound bite. There are two aspects of

:44:00.:44:04.

the human and intellectual cost of Brexit for universities. The first

:44:05.:44:08.

is the potential for another brain drain and the second is the

:44:09.:44:13.

potential restrictions on overseas research students. I say another

:44:14.:44:17.

brain drain as it is sadly nothing new. Many senior figures in British

:44:18.:44:21.

universities remember the lack of support from the Thatcher government

:44:22.:44:26.

in the 80s and the exodus of scientists abroad. It is ironic that

:44:27.:44:36.

the four British Nobel prize winners this year are all based in the US,

:44:37.:44:41.

having been forced out during the 1980s brain drain. British research

:44:42.:44:49.

scientists are worried, worried that the Prime Minister 's Matt and

:44:50.:44:51.

Charles Brexit means Brexit will lead to a lack of funding and grants

:44:52.:44:56.

for Bridges science and the potential for a modern brain drain.

:44:57.:45:03.

Added to this is the potential for British universities to become less

:45:04.:45:08.

attractive to international research students and FIS chancellors from

:45:09.:45:12.

LSE, Kings College London, and Bristol, have already voiced their

:45:13.:45:16.

fears about recruitment of international students with serious

:45:17.:45:22.

financial as well as human resource consequences for our universities.

:45:23.:45:25.

The Vice Chancellor of Cambridge University, Professor is a stalwart

:45:26.:45:32.

Remainer but in common with many have voted to remain here is a

:45:33.:45:37.

pragmatist and he wants Cambridge to get the best out of Brexit and he

:45:38.:45:41.

says that to achieve this the government must provide some basic

:45:42.:45:45.

clarity on what exactly Brexit means and he is asking for three things

:45:46.:45:52.

from the government. The first one, clarity on the national status of

:45:53.:45:57.

University staff. Second recognition of the collaborative ideal implicit

:45:58.:46:06.

in EU projects. Thirdly a government guarantee of vital university

:46:07.:46:10.

budgets. I would hope that the Vice Chancellor 's requests will be

:46:11.:46:12.

listened to and heeded by this government. He is after all what

:46:13.:46:18.

some might regard as something of an expert. Although the people of this

:46:19.:46:24.

country were urged not to listen to experts during the referendum, on

:46:25.:46:29.

this subject and on many others affected by the Brexit negotiations

:46:30.:46:33.

it is absolutely vital that this government pays heed to our finest

:46:34.:46:38.

minds. They are not asking for a running commentary, they are asking

:46:39.:46:42.

for clarity and a coherent and informed plan as to the exact nature

:46:43.:46:46.

and man of our departure from the EU. The EU makes substantial

:46:47.:46:54.

financial contributions to research in UK universities, research funding

:46:55.:46:58.

from the EU amounts to around ?1 billion per year, whilst our own

:46:59.:47:03.

national research budget is below international averages. I represent

:47:04.:47:08.

a greater Manchester constituency and universities across my region

:47:09.:47:13.

have more than 4000 EU students currently on campuses. This equates

:47:14.:47:18.

to spending of ?90 million per year, not just on tuition fees but also on

:47:19.:47:24.

expenditure and American economy. Manchester University is 29th in the

:47:25.:47:29.

world's top 100 universities and has received ?48 million on research

:47:30.:47:34.

funding in the last two years alone. The loss of such substantial funding

:47:35.:47:39.

and a failure to attract EU students could not fail to have a detrimental

:47:40.:47:45.

effect on our area. I can't lay claim to a connection with Mr Higgs,

:47:46.:47:51.

but one of Manchester University 's most famous academics, Professor

:47:52.:47:57.

Brian Cox, who like me was born in Oldham,, he said in a recent

:47:58.:48:02.

interview on the effects of Brexit said that the central issue for

:48:03.:48:06.

science is that it is a global pursuit. I work at the hadron

:48:07.:48:11.

Collider at certain in Geneva and that is a global project. The things

:48:12.:48:16.

that scientists and universities are most worried about is the movement

:48:17.:48:20.

of people around the world. We need to say this is a country where you

:48:21.:48:26.

are welcome to live and study and do science, but at the moment we are

:48:27.:48:28.

representing to Europe and the rest of the world is not the right one.

:48:29.:48:42.

Do I have until 930 PM? Six minutes. OK, I will keep to the sex. I was

:48:43.:48:48.

just save it was possible! I am very pleased to be speaking on this

:48:49.:48:51.

debate and as the health spokesperson I can get great

:48:52.:48:55.

interest in medical research and I am intensely proud of our

:48:56.:48:58.

universities and Northern Ireland. I am happy to follow at the honourable

:48:59.:49:04.

lady for Heywood and Middleton. I bat for my team in Northern Ireland

:49:05.:49:09.

and I will do that now. As a Brexiteer and one who voted to leave

:49:10.:49:14.

and who was very proud that the people of Great Britain made that

:49:15.:49:16.

decision and my constituency in particular made that decision, I see

:49:17.:49:23.

we now have opportunities. The Centre for Cancer research at Queens

:49:24.:49:28.

University is a research centre with over 300 researchers from across the

:49:29.:49:32.

world and they achieve the highest quality of research excellence. It

:49:33.:49:36.

extends from population studies of cancer and three tumour biology and

:49:37.:49:40.

clinical trials and health service research. The Institute itself is

:49:41.:49:45.

committed to fostering transdisciplinary investigation and

:49:46.:49:49.

cancer control that led the very interface between fundamental and

:49:50.:49:55.

clinical population research. There are 250 faculty graduate and

:49:56.:49:58.

postdoctoral trainees and support staff. Opportunists will graduate

:49:59.:50:04.

and postdoctoral training offered in partnership with several departments

:50:05.:50:09.

at the University including biomedical and cell biology and

:50:10.:50:12.

biochemistry and microbiology and immunology in pharmacology and

:50:13.:50:17.

toxicology and community health and epidemiology in mathematics and

:50:18.:50:22.

statistics. Oncology, pathology and medicine. Queens School studies all

:50:23.:50:26.

of these things at Queens University and they are done with expertise and

:50:27.:50:31.

they are supported by the Terry Fox foundation in partnership with the

:50:32.:50:34.

Canadian Institute of health research. This high level of

:50:35.:50:37.

research needs a highly qualified and specialist skill set. On leaving

:50:38.:50:44.

the EU we must ensure the skill set is protected and enabled -- are able

:50:45.:50:48.

to continue the process work in our universities. I was -- I saw the

:50:49.:50:57.

Royal Society president in a recent column wanting us to build on our

:50:58.:51:01.

research we are doing that in Northern Ireland and we want to make

:51:02.:51:05.

sure it happens. I have faith that the Brexit team understands the

:51:06.:51:08.

necessity of the arrangements to be put in place to ensure that this

:51:09.:51:13.

knowledge and skill can and will and shall take place. I am sure the

:51:14.:51:16.

minister is nodding in appreciation and we will get that confirmed in a

:51:17.:51:23.

few moments when he rises to speak. The University research benefits

:51:24.:51:27.

from the top researchers in the UK includes several Nobel prize winners

:51:28.:51:30.

and we must give them the opportunity to enable they are live

:51:31.:51:36.

and work here in the UK. As president of the Royal Society said

:51:37.:51:40.

30% of our academic research staff from abroad and a third of UK

:51:41.:51:46.

start-ups funded by non-UK national rules and we are second only to the

:51:47.:51:50.

US as a destination for global talent. We produce a first rate

:51:51.:51:54.

environment for training home-grown talent and losing them would be a

:51:55.:51:57.

disaster for our economy and we need to take immediate steps to reassure

:51:58.:52:02.

those who are here that they are welcome. They are welcome and we

:52:03.:52:04.

want them to stay and the Minister will say that very clearly in a few

:52:05.:52:09.

moments. The role played by foreign centres and graduates must not be

:52:10.:52:13.

overlooked or under estimated. They are an essential component in the

:52:14.:52:17.

cog of our industry and I take this opportunity to underline that fact

:52:18.:52:21.

in the chamber today and put it on record. In 2015 over half of the UK

:52:22.:52:27.

research output was the result of an international collaboration and

:52:28.:52:29.

these collaborations are increasing. The European research Council is

:52:30.:52:35.

part of Horizon 2020 and it finds frontier research purely on the

:52:36.:52:39.

basis of scientific excellence and it has established a very strong

:52:40.:52:43.

international reputation. At Queens University we have international

:52:44.:52:48.

partnerships with companies and business and other universities

:52:49.:52:51.

across the United Kingdom and across the world. We are coming together to

:52:52.:52:56.

bring the scientific excellence that is needed right there at University

:52:57.:53:01.

-- Queens University in Belfast in Northern Ireland. The funding stream

:53:02.:53:05.

does not require international collaboration and 58% of papers with

:53:06.:53:09.

ERC funding has co-authors that are based in other countries.

:53:10.:53:14.

Collaboration enhances the quality of scientific research and improves

:53:15.:53:18.

the efficiency and effectiveness of that research and it is increasingly

:53:19.:53:23.

necessary as a scale of both budgets and research challenges grow. I am

:53:24.:53:28.

sure the Minister in his response will confirm that the collaboration

:53:29.:53:32.

that takes place at this moment in time will continue post-Brexit and

:53:33.:53:36.

into the future. The primary driver of most collaborations is the

:53:37.:53:39.

centres themselves and in developing their research and finding answers

:53:40.:53:45.

scientists will work with the best institutions and the best equipment

:53:46.:53:47.

that complement their research where ever they may be. If so happens that

:53:48.:53:54.

most of those good people are in Belfast at Queens University! This

:53:55.:53:57.

will be maintained and enhanced and comes back to my point regarding

:53:58.:54:02.

Brexit. It is an opportunity to put in place mutually beneficial

:54:03.:54:05.

cooperation between countries that we must make the most but I believe

:54:06.:54:11.

we will do just that. We work better as a team. Brexit must take this

:54:12.:54:15.

opportunity to put in place the roles that enhance the games, bring

:54:16.:54:19.

the best results and I have every confidence in the Brexit minister

:54:20.:54:22.

and his team in this great nation, the United Kingdom of Great Britain

:54:23.:54:25.

and Northern Ireland. Better together. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:54:26.:54:36.

Speaker. Before winding up the debate it is perhaps worth noting,

:54:37.:54:41.

as you will know, that while we have been debating this important issue

:54:42.:54:46.

somebody has driven a lorry into a Christmas market in the heart of

:54:47.:54:53.

Berlin, killing nine people. I am sure that I speak on the half of the

:54:54.:54:59.

whole house in expressing our solidarity at this time with the

:55:00.:55:04.

German people and expressing our shared commitment to work together

:55:05.:55:10.

to oppose all of those who challenge the democratic values that we share

:55:11.:55:17.

across Europe. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the third of our general

:55:18.:55:23.

debates on exiting the European Union and I am sure that at some

:55:24.:55:27.

stage the government will trot out all of the hours we have spent in

:55:28.:55:32.

the chamber and claim that it represents in some way, some sort of

:55:33.:55:39.

involvement for parliament in the Brexit process. I see the Minister

:55:40.:55:44.

nodding. But it misses the point. While we have had a very interesting

:55:45.:55:51.

debate and members on both sides have demonstrated both their

:55:52.:55:55.

understanding of and their commitment to the importance of

:55:56.:55:58.

science and research in the economic future of our country, we have

:55:59.:56:05.

really got to be illuminated march on the government 's thinking or the

:56:06.:56:10.

government 's plans which perhaps na vely I thought would be something

:56:11.:56:12.

to do with these general debates. I'd like to welcome the many

:56:13.:56:23.

contributions that have been made, particularly, the powerful maiden

:56:24.:56:26.

speech for the new member for Richmond Park. I'm sure that the

:56:27.:56:35.

honourable member will pass on my view which I am sure will be shared

:56:36.:56:40.

across the House, that she will add real value to this place and she was

:56:41.:56:46.

also right to highlight the divided country that we have become through

:56:47.:56:52.

this debate and the need for leadership. Leadership which I think

:56:53.:57:00.

is sadly lacking at the moment, because, as I pointed out, we are no

:57:01.:57:06.

clearer on how the government aims to protect science and research in

:57:07.:57:10.

the Brexit negotiations. The chair of the Education Committee as a

:57:11.:57:16.

simple and straightforward question, to the Minister in his opening

:57:17.:57:23.

remarks, will the government seek associate country status in the

:57:24.:57:26.

success of programmes to Horizon 2020 and we got no answer. And

:57:27.:57:33.

honourable members are pointed out throughout the debate, as we

:57:34.:57:38.

navigate our way in it increasingly competitive world, the future of our

:57:39.:57:42.

economy will depend heavily on research and innovation. Many have

:57:43.:57:46.

talked about the strengths, but there are glimpses as well

:57:47.:57:50.

particularly in the lack of investment in research and

:57:51.:57:55.

development. We have slipped from leading the OECD countries, in terms

:57:56.:58:02.

of spent since 1979 and we trailed behind all of our competitors. OECD

:58:03.:58:10.

countries like the EU average 2.4% but the country invests just 1.7%,

:58:11.:58:19.

less than half the 3.9% investor by South Korea, which as a result

:58:20.:58:24.

remains a major manufacturing nation. The strength though, Mr

:58:25.:58:31.

Speaker, and it is considerable, the research capacity of our

:58:32.:58:35.

universities as many have pointed out, but that strength is

:58:36.:58:39.

potentially at risk if the government gets Brexit wrong. So

:58:40.:58:44.

what does getting it wrong look like in relation to research and science?

:58:45.:58:50.

What are the risks? The chair of the science and technology committee in

:58:51.:58:55.

an excellent report produced by that committee highlighted the five key

:58:56.:59:00.

issues, funding, people, collaboration, regulation and

:59:01.:59:03.

facilities and he was also right to express the concerned that if we are

:59:04.:59:08.

not careful, science could be one of the casualties of Brexit and I am

:59:09.:59:12.

sure we share a desire across the house that that should not be the

:59:13.:59:18.

case. It would in that context the useful if the minister in winding up

:59:19.:59:24.

was able to answer his point on when the department will be appointing

:59:25.:59:30.

scientific adviser. Mr Speaker, because our universities are so

:59:31.:59:36.

good, we do disproportionately well from EU research funding, better per

:59:37.:59:42.

head than any other EU country and EU programmes provide almost 15% of

:59:43.:59:49.

UK university research funding. As the right honourable member for

:59:50.:59:52.

Loughborough pointed out, we can all agree on the importance of this

:59:53.:59:57.

funding and with that money comes a critical collaboration and my

:59:58.:00:01.

honourable friend, the member for Bishop Auckland was right to

:00:02.:00:05.

highlight that point about the Pan European collaboration that comes

:00:06.:00:10.

with the involvement in Horizon 2020 and its predecessor programmes. All

:00:11.:00:15.

of that is at risk if research is not put centre stage in the Brexit

:00:16.:00:20.

negotiations. Second point that was made by the chair of the Select

:00:21.:00:25.

Committee was about people and again, because our universities are

:00:26.:00:29.

so good, they attract great staff from all over the world, 28% of

:00:30.:00:35.

academics are non-UK citizens, 15% from the EU and for key research

:00:36.:00:40.

staff, the number is higher, much higher, accounting for more than

:00:41.:00:44.

half in some stem subjects and as the honourable member for Bristol

:00:45.:00:49.

West highlighted, we have all heard stories of jobs declined, of those

:00:50.:00:56.

already here questioning their in the UK because the government will

:00:57.:00:58.

not give the assurance that this House asked for in July for a

:00:59.:01:02.

unilateral commitments that those who are already here can stay when

:01:03.:01:07.

we leave the EU on the same basis that they currently enjoy. As the

:01:08.:01:11.

member for Glasgow North West pointed out, we should never forget,

:01:12.:01:18.

these are highly mobile people. They don't have to be here. They have

:01:19.:01:21.

lots of other offers available to them, they are not a drain, they are

:01:22.:01:28.

an asset to the UK. And if we leave the EU with no deal on the future

:01:29.:01:32.

movement of workers, we will fall back on current immigration rules,

:01:33.:01:36.

which, as the honourable member for Cambridge pointed out, will not

:01:37.:01:42.

work, because there are tens of thousands of early career academics

:01:43.:01:46.

and researchers who will not meet the tier two income threshold which

:01:47.:01:55.

would create a potential crisis for our research community. And so with

:01:56.:02:02.

staff, so with students, as the honourable member for South Antrim

:02:03.:02:09.

pointed out. Around 125,000 of our 436,000 international students are

:02:10.:02:13.

from the EU and their future is uncertain and a survey before it

:02:14.:02:18.

June the 23rd indicated that one third of non-EU students would find

:02:19.:02:22.

the UK are less attractive destination if we chose to leave.

:02:23.:02:27.

The worst outcome is that we could lose at more than half of our

:02:28.:02:31.

international students currently in the UK, costing billions of pounds,

:02:32.:02:37.

as the honourable member for Heywood and Middleton pointed out, the

:02:38.:02:40.

impact on her local economy, which will be repeated in local economies

:02:41.:02:45.

across the country. Not only costing money, not only costing jobs, but

:02:46.:02:51.

bringing into question the viability of many courses, particularly

:02:52.:02:55.

postgraduate courses and particularly in stem subjects which

:02:56.:02:59.

would no longer be available to UK students. You would

:03:00.:03:12.

imagine, Mr Speaker, that the government would be seeking to

:03:13.:03:15.

mitigate this risk by setting out a clear strategy for maintaining our

:03:16.:03:17.

position as a destination of choice for international students. Instead,

:03:18.:03:19.

the Home Secretary, extraordinarily, has put international students at

:03:20.:03:21.

the centre of her plans to cut migration, making a bad situation

:03:22.:03:28.

worse. So, what do we need from the Brexit negotiations? Firstly we need

:03:29.:03:32.

a plan and I am pleased that the House agreed and we are looking

:03:33.:03:37.

forward to seeing it. So, we can start some meaningful debate and to

:03:38.:03:39.

replace the general debates we are so much and join at the moment.

:03:40.:03:45.

LAUGHTER. Clearly the Minister isn't going to shed the plan at this

:03:46.:03:49.

stage, but I hope that he will share his views on a few key questions

:03:50.:03:54.

which will be central to it. On funding, will he give a clear

:03:55.:03:58.

commitment that the government will prioritise research and innovation

:03:59.:04:01.

in the negotiations, with our partners in Europe, with a view to

:04:02.:04:07.

ensuring continued UK participation in EU research programmes, not just

:04:08.:04:12.

for the full duration of Horizon 2020, but for FP nine and success of

:04:13.:04:17.

programmes and will he outlined beyond the 2 billion already

:04:18.:04:22.

announced, which I think it takes our research and development to 1.9%

:04:23.:04:28.

on a rough calculation, what plans he has two strengthen support for

:04:29.:04:32.

research and innovation more widely to mitigate any damage from leaving

:04:33.:04:40.

the EU. On staff, will he press for the earliest confirmation that EU

:04:41.:04:45.

nationals working in our universities can remain on current

:04:46.:04:47.

terms without having to apply for leave to remain, as the honourable

:04:48.:04:54.

member for Lewisham West mentioned and will he say what assurances the

:04:55.:04:59.

government will give to those who join our universities during the

:05:00.:05:03.

pre-Brexit period until 2019, because if there are no such

:05:04.:05:08.

assurances, then recruitment will be made significantly more difficult.

:05:09.:05:13.

What representations is he making about future these arrangements post

:05:14.:05:16.

Brexit so that we can continue to enjoy the benefits of securing the

:05:17.:05:20.

services of the best researchers from the EU and the rest of the

:05:21.:05:24.

world? And on students, does he agree that we need early clarity on

:05:25.:05:31.

axis to student funding for EU students? We have it for next year

:05:32.:05:36.

but what about 2018 and 2019 and will it apply to postgraduates as

:05:37.:05:41.

well? Does he agree that we need to confirm the immigration status of

:05:42.:05:44.

existing and prospective EU students and the right to remain in the UK

:05:45.:05:52.

for work and postgraduate study? Mr Speaker, among the many issues we

:05:53.:05:56.

face, these are relatively straightforward questions. But an

:05:57.:06:01.

off a lot depends on the answers and if the Minister can't fully answer

:06:02.:06:07.

them tonight, I hope that he will make sure that the answers are in

:06:08.:06:14.

the plan that we will see in the New Year. Because our economy and our

:06:15.:06:21.

future as a country depends on it. Robert Walker to reply to that.

:06:22.:06:27.

Thank you very much, it is always a pleasure to follow the honourable

:06:28.:06:32.

gentleman and may I echo his comments about the appalling loss of

:06:33.:06:36.

life in Berlin. I am sure that the whole house will join us in

:06:37.:06:40.

expressing sympathy for the victims. Our thoughts and bears are with the

:06:41.:06:44.

families affected and we should stand shoulder to shoulder with

:06:45.:06:48.

Germany and our European allies and partners after a terrible incident

:06:49.:06:53.

of this sort. This has been an excellent debate and I would like to

:06:54.:06:58.

thank all members, particularly the honourable lady of rich -- from

:06:59.:07:05.

Richmond Park who spoke about Parliament bringing people together

:07:06.:07:09.

after the referendum. We should all aim to do that. This has been, the

:07:10.:07:17.

third it is here is a debate about important issues around the UK's

:07:18.:07:20.

withdrawal from the European Union and I am promised by the Secretary

:07:21.:07:25.

of State for Brexiting the European Union, I would like to know how

:07:26.:07:30.

fruitful we have found these debates and I am glad that the honourable

:07:31.:07:34.

gentleman for Chavez has enjoyed them so much. When the house

:07:35.:07:38.

returned from summer recess, I had the very first debate in Westminster

:07:39.:07:43.

Hall and it is a delight to be able to conclude this session with the

:07:44.:07:47.

last major government debate in the main chamber. The UK's global status

:07:48.:07:51.

as a science and research superpower is fundamental to our wider economic

:07:52.:07:58.

competitiveness. The honourable lady for Newcastle described it as the

:07:59.:08:02.

engine of prosperity. This government wants the new Quay to be

:08:03.:08:06.

the old who plays for innovators and investors around the world and we

:08:07.:08:10.

intend to secure the right outcome for the UK research base as we exit

:08:11.:08:13.

the European Union. This debate has highlighted some of the issues that

:08:14.:08:17.

we know we will have to consider as we negotiate to leave the European

:08:18.:08:23.

Union, maintaining our science and research base is a top priority as I

:08:24.:08:27.

think we have seen from the debate and it is shared by members on all

:08:28.:08:30.

sides of this House and before I begin to respond to some of the

:08:31.:08:34.

helpful points raised by members, I would like to take some time to

:08:35.:08:37.

point out the action the government has already taken to secure our

:08:38.:08:41.

place in the world of research and science. The government is

:08:42.:08:45.

determined to ensure all the relevant views from stakeholders in

:08:46.:08:50.

this base are reflected in our analysis of the UK's withdrawal from

:08:51.:08:55.

the EU. We are conducting a range of meetings around are negotiating

:08:56.:08:59.

position and this includes a wide programme of engagement within the

:09:00.:09:02.

department to ensure the views of the research and science sectors are

:09:03.:09:06.

heard and to reassure the honourable lady from Heywood and Middleton that

:09:07.:09:10.

we are listing to experts. My ministerial colleagues and I have

:09:11.:09:14.

met a number of higher institution educations and groups and just last

:09:15.:09:25.

week I attended the new stakeholder working group, posted by my

:09:26.:09:30.

honourable friend on EU exit universities research and

:09:31.:09:33.

innovation. The sector strongly supports our ambition to create an

:09:34.:09:36.

environment in which the UK as a whole can continue to be a world

:09:37.:09:41.

leader in research, science and the tertiary education sector. We are

:09:42.:09:45.

also continuing to talk with representatives of the science and

:09:46.:09:48.

technology sectors between myself and ministerial colleagues, we

:09:49.:09:53.

recently met with the Chief scientific adviser, the President of

:09:54.:09:55.

the Royal Society and the President of the Royal Academy 's as well as

:09:56.:10:00.

representatives from the life sciences, environment, space and

:10:01.:10:06.

technology sectors, and the digital sector who have advocated a strong

:10:07.:10:10.

position on freedom of movement of data. I'll Sue enjoyed giving

:10:11.:10:17.

evidence to my honourable friend, to the Select Committee and I welcome

:10:18.:10:20.

the report to which the government will be responding in full at a

:10:21.:10:24.

later date. To his point and the point of my honourable friend for

:10:25.:10:27.

Twickenham, we are working closely with the government 's chief

:10:28.:10:31.

scientific adviser and the government office for science to

:10:32.:10:34.

ensure that we have axis to the expertise that we need. Lastly I

:10:35.:10:39.

visited Surry satellites in Guildford to see at first hand the

:10:40.:10:43.

levels of innovation present in the UK space industry which my

:10:44.:10:46.

honourable friend was right to praise in his opening speech. We

:10:47.:10:50.

will continue to meet with such stakeholders in the coming months.

:10:51.:10:53.

The government have already taken action on some of the concerns that

:10:54.:10:57.

these groups have raised. The Treasury will underwrite all

:10:58.:11:00.

successful bids from Horizon 2020 that are approved by the commission

:11:01.:11:04.

even when specific projects continue beyond our departure from the EU

:11:05.:11:09.

after 2020. This gives British participants and their EU partners

:11:10.:11:13.

the assurance and certainty to plan ahead for projects that can run over

:11:14.:11:17.

many years. The guarantees provided send a clear message to UK

:11:18.:11:20.

businesses and the universities that while we remain a member of the EU,

:11:21.:11:26.

they should continue to bid for competitive EU funding.

:11:27.:11:33.

My right honourable friend for life gave an important example of where

:11:34.:11:40.

it restored funding as a result. It will help to ensure that the UK

:11:41.:11:44.

remains a world leader in international research. We have

:11:45.:11:49.

provided further assurances to universities to confirm that

:11:50.:11:53.

existing EU students and those starting courses soon will continue

:11:54.:11:57.

to be evident -- eligible for student loans and home fees status

:11:58.:12:01.

throughout their courses. We have extended that to postgraduate

:12:02.:12:05.

support and studentships that will remain open to EU students starting

:12:06.:12:13.

courses further on. Their course will be covered even if it continues

:12:14.:12:18.

after the UK has left the EU. We will disc -- we will decide the

:12:19.:12:25.

policy for the 18/19 academic year in good time for applications. We

:12:26.:12:29.

were challenged over the government 's funding for science but at a time

:12:30.:12:34.

of tight control over all government spending it is significant that we

:12:35.:12:36.

were able to protect the science budget with a total investment of

:12:37.:12:44.

?26 billion between 2016 and 2017 and 2020 and 2021. We have been

:12:45.:12:48.

going further to protect the science ecosystem in the country and the

:12:49.:12:51.

government have committed to real terms influences in research and

:12:52.:12:58.

development. It rises and helps put Britain at the cutting edge of

:12:59.:13:03.

science and technology and I join my friends the chair of the select

:13:04.:13:07.

committee in welcoming that. The new industrial strategy challenge fund

:13:08.:13:11.

will direct some of that investment into scientific research on the

:13:12.:13:15.

development of a number of priority technologies, in particular

:13:16.:13:18.

addressing Britain's historic weakness on commercialisation and

:13:19.:13:22.

turning our world leading research into success. To realise the full

:13:23.:13:26.

economic potential of these new technologies we have also announced

:13:27.:13:31.

a review of support for organisations undertake research to

:13:32.:13:34.

the tax system. The Treasury will look at whether we can make the

:13:35.:13:38.

support even more effective to ensure the UK continues to actively

:13:39.:13:42.

encourage innovation. Ultimately we need to ensure that our world

:13:43.:13:46.

beating science and research base maintains global research excellence

:13:47.:13:50.

in our institutions, innovation in our businesses, and strong local

:13:51.:13:54.

economies across the UK. It has been striking during this debate to hear

:13:55.:13:57.

so many honourable members from both sides of the cattle is -- from both

:13:58.:14:08.

sides of the house from Loughborough, Bradford, Bristol West

:14:09.:14:12.

etc, speaking passionately about the benefits of science, universities

:14:13.:14:15.

and research bring to their constituencies. We can be confident

:14:16.:14:18.

that our fundamentals are strong but we need to fully evaluate the

:14:19.:14:23.

consequences, challenges and opportunities to UK science and

:14:24.:14:26.

innovation of leaving the EU. It will take time and I am grateful for

:14:27.:14:29.

the support and challenge we have received from this house and from a

:14:30.:14:34.

very wide range of other informed sources as we do so. I do see

:14:35.:14:46.

continuing confidence in the UK as a natural home of the world leader for

:14:47.:14:49.

science and innovation. Since the referendum we have welcomed hundreds

:14:50.:14:51.

of millions of pounds of new investment from many companies in

:14:52.:14:58.

the life sciences and pharmaceutical sectors and a huge investment in

:14:59.:15:02.

space technology. There have been important job announcements from

:15:03.:15:07.

companies that will build four new data centres here in the UK. A

:15:08.:15:12.

recent survey by the CBI says 70% of businesses plan to increase or

:15:13.:15:17.

maintain innovation suspended following the vote to leave the EU

:15:18.:15:22.

and only 7% plan to reduce their investment. The UK has always been

:15:23.:15:24.

one of the most innovative nations on the face of the earth and I am

:15:25.:15:30.

certain it will remain so. I want to move on to respond to some of the

:15:31.:15:34.

helpful points raised by members across the house. We have covered a

:15:35.:15:38.

wide range of comments and what I have learned is in three cue areas,

:15:39.:15:47.

funding and collaboration. UK businesses should continue to build

:15:48.:15:51.

for competitive EU funds while we remain a member of the EU and we

:15:52.:15:55.

will work with the commission to ensure payment when funds are

:15:56.:15:59.

rewarded. The Treasury will underwrite the payment of such

:16:00.:16:03.

successful rewards even when it continues beyond the UK departure.

:16:04.:16:08.

The government has reassured that structural and investment projects

:16:09.:16:11.

signed before the UK withdraws from the EU will be guaranteed by the

:16:12.:16:15.

Treasury up until 2020. These projects will have two provide

:16:16.:16:20.

strong evidence and be in line with UK strategic priorities. We have

:16:21.:16:23.

heard submissions from across the house of a future relationship with

:16:24.:16:27.

Horizon 2020 and it is too early to speculate on the detail of our

:16:28.:16:32.

future relationship and its successor programmes but the UK

:16:33.:16:36.

Government is committed to ensuring we remain a world leader in research

:16:37.:16:41.

and innovation. The views expressed in the house today are that many who

:16:42.:16:52.

campaigned to leave have echoed what we have been hearing from

:16:53.:16:55.

stakeholders on the importance of research mobility. We are carefully

:16:56.:17:01.

considering the impact of this across the sector but our ambition

:17:02.:17:04.

is to create an immigration system that allows us to control numbers

:17:05.:17:08.

and encourage the best and the brightest to come to this country. I

:17:09.:17:16.

will give way. Can I extend an invitation due to visit the Queen 's

:17:17.:17:20.

University in Belfast because it will encourage them and it is a

:17:21.:17:23.

chance to show what we are doing and it will also get the partnerships

:17:24.:17:30.

growing even more. I would be delighted to accept that invitation

:17:31.:17:33.

and I have already visited one university in Northern Ireland and I

:17:34.:17:37.

would be absolutely delighted to visit another as soon as the

:17:38.:17:41.

opportunity arises. There has been no change to the rights and status

:17:42.:17:45.

of EU nationals in the UK as an immediate result of the referendum.

:17:46.:17:49.

Prime Minister has been clear that during negotiations once to protect

:17:50.:17:53.

the status of EU nationals already living here and the only

:17:54.:17:56.

circumstances in which it wouldn't be possible would be if British

:17:57.:18:00.

citizen rights were not protected in return.

:18:01.:18:14.

I was glad to hear her repeat her desire to see such a deal, early in

:18:15.:18:19.

her statement today. Looking to the future I will repeat again what my

:18:20.:18:21.

Secretary of State has said before. We will always welcome those with

:18:22.:18:24.

the skills of the drive and the expertise. I give way but I will

:18:25.:18:26.

finish this point. The skills for driving the expertise to make our

:18:27.:18:29.

nation better still. If we are to win in the global marketplace we

:18:30.:18:31.

must win the global battle for talent. Britain has always been one

:18:32.:18:34.

of the most tolerant and welcoming places on the face of the Earth and

:18:35.:18:37.

it must and remain so. Back to the status of EU nationals in this

:18:38.:18:42.

country. Everyone would notice the embarrassing position in which the

:18:43.:18:45.

Prime Minister found herself at the European Council when she raised the

:18:46.:18:49.

issue and her next remarks were that she ought to leave because she got

:18:50.:18:54.

no response at all. I'm sure he cannot say this authoritative lead

:18:55.:18:57.

but what is preventing the government from offering that

:18:58.:19:02.

undertaking now and then going on to article 50 discussions at a later

:19:03.:19:07.

date? I would simply say he of a gentleman that it is very clear that

:19:08.:19:10.

the government has the ambition of securing this through the

:19:11.:19:13.

negotiations. We have raised the issue at the European Council and

:19:14.:19:17.

the response that the government has received is that there is no --

:19:18.:19:22.

negotiation without notification and we need to secure it through

:19:23.:19:25.

negotiations. As many honourable friends have said there are

:19:26.:19:30.

opportunities to support the needs of the research on community is to

:19:31.:19:35.

attract global talent into the future. It is a mark of our success

:19:36.:19:40.

that the UK is the second greatest destination for international

:19:41.:19:45.

students after the USA. On international collaboration this

:19:46.:19:48.

debate underscores what we have been hearing as to how vital successful

:19:49.:19:51.

research is, we've heard about the importance of access to European and

:19:52.:19:56.

global research infrastructure. Every international collaboration is

:19:57.:19:58.

different and we would need to look carefully at all of them to ensure

:19:59.:20:03.

that UK scientists continue to have access to cutting-edge equipment and

:20:04.:20:07.

corporations. In the majority of cases UK access to research

:20:08.:20:10.

facilities is not dependent on being a member of the EU. At Cern we

:20:11.:20:18.

remember in our own right and it will continue and also at the

:20:19.:20:22.

European Space Agency, our membership is not dependent on the

:20:23.:20:25.

EU and we will continue the investments we are taking them. We

:20:26.:20:29.

have made no final decisions on how our future relationship with

:20:30.:20:32.

research in the EU will look and there are a number of options

:20:33.:20:36.

available but international collaboration in this space is

:20:37.:20:39.

nothing new. We are thinking through how best UK researchers can continue

:20:40.:20:44.

to work with the best of their international counterparts, European

:20:45.:20:46.

and more widely. We start from a strong basis with a recent survey

:20:47.:20:52.

showing that 47.6% of UK articles were internationally co-authored. We

:20:53.:20:57.

should seek to keep building on this. The decision to double our

:20:58.:21:01.

investment in the Newton fund was a positive statement of intent in this

:21:02.:21:05.

regard that my honourable friend for Plymouth Davenport made clear we

:21:06.:21:09.

must take the broader global opportunities in this space. The

:21:10.:21:13.

honourable gentleman for Bassetlaw is no longer in his place by his

:21:14.:21:18.

endorsement of our strategy, are there he is, I greatly welcome. I

:21:19.:21:24.

would like to close by saying that this government is committed to

:21:25.:21:26.

ensuring that research and innovation in the UK will continue

:21:27.:21:30.

to be a major success story after we withdraw from the EU. As the Prime

:21:31.:21:36.

Minister said earlier we will negotiate to reflect the kind of

:21:37.:21:42.

mature cooperation that our friends enjoy and it should include the

:21:43.:21:45.

fields of science and research which are vital for our country's

:21:46.:21:49.

prosperity, security and well-being. We are determined to ensure that

:21:50.:21:53.

people and businesses have stability and certainty in the period leading

:21:54.:21:56.

up to our departure from the EU and we use the opportunities that

:21:57.:22:00.

departure represents to reinforce our priorities as United Kingdom.

:22:01.:22:04.

Britain is not just a European leader in the field of European

:22:05.:22:07.

research but a global leader and we will be doing all we can to ensure

:22:08.:22:15.

we stay that way. The excellence of our research and the attractiveness

:22:16.:22:18.

of the UK as a place to do it are fundamental to our success. As well

:22:19.:22:22.

as a complete life history of Mr Higgs of Higgs boson fame, we have

:22:23.:22:25.

had a number of bits from my honourable friends in this debate

:22:26.:22:31.

for a medical school and life sciences Centre and a world Heritage

:22:32.:22:37.

site and also the honourable member requesting extra funding for

:22:38.:22:40.

Northern Ireland. I am not in a position to play Santa Claus from

:22:41.:22:44.

the dispatch box but I can assure them that their pleas will have been

:22:45.:22:47.

aired and speaking personally I hope they get all the presents that they

:22:48.:22:51.

wish for. May I take this opportunity to thank the honourable

:22:52.:23:01.

members on all sides for their contributions and wish everyone a

:23:02.:23:07.

Merry Christmas. The question is this house has considered exiting

:23:08.:23:12.

the EU in science and research. As many of the opinion, say I. The eyes

:23:13.:23:20.

have it. With the leave of the house we will take motion 's number two to

:23:21.:23:31.

six together. The question is motion 's number two to six on the order

:23:32.:23:42.

paper. I think the ayes have it. In order. We come now to the

:23:43.:23:48.

adjournment. The whip to move. I beg to move that this house do now

:23:49.:23:54.

adjourned. The question is that this house do now adjourned. Judith

:23:55.:23:59.

Collins. Thank you for granting me this important debate. Ten years ago

:24:00.:24:03.

the Bradford Bulls were the dominant force in rugby league, not just here

:24:04.:24:08.

in the UK but in the world. In 20 years of super league Bradford have

:24:09.:24:13.

been champions four times, jointly holding the record for most titles.

:24:14.:24:18.

They won the league twice prior to the creation of the super league and

:24:19.:24:21.

have been runners-up in the top flight five times. The challenge cup

:24:22.:24:27.

is being brought back to Bradford five times from the clubs 11

:24:28.:24:32.

appearances in the prestigious tournament 's final. Bradford has

:24:33.:24:37.

won the World Cup challenge by the European champions take on the

:24:38.:24:41.

champions of Australia a total of three times, I get Jonny holding the

:24:42.:24:43.

record for the club with the most wins in the competition. They were

:24:44.:24:49.

also the first team to ever win a domestic treble in 2003. Prior to

:24:50.:24:57.

Super League the club was a founding member of the Rugby football league

:24:58.:25:05.

in 1895. Their stadium is in my Bradford South constituency and it

:25:06.:25:08.

has been the home of the club since 1934. When Bradford moved there it

:25:09.:25:14.

was the biggest stadium in the country outside Wembley and it

:25:15.:25:17.

remains to this day the country's largest rugby league club ground. In

:25:18.:25:23.

fact it holds the record for rugby league attendance. In 1954 102,569

:25:24.:25:30.

spectators watched Warrington beat Halifax in the challenge club cup

:25:31.:25:39.

final replay. The success of the Bradford Bulls extends beyond its

:25:40.:25:43.

field of play, its connection with the development of rugby at the

:25:44.:25:48.

grassroots and in the community is noteworthy. Bradford 's community

:25:49.:25:52.

work is outstanding. Its foundation received the much coveted foundation

:25:53.:25:55.

of the year award this year and it has worked with more than 30,000

:25:56.:26:04.

people in 2016 alone. It runs 15 separate community projects

:26:05.:26:06.

including coaching in local primary and secondary schools. It has had

:26:07.:26:12.

one of the most successful projects that has been delivered with the

:26:13.:26:17.

Rugby football league and Sky Television Innova... I beg to move

:26:18.:26:28.

that this house do now adjourned. Judith Cummins.

:26:29.:26:34.

Is the Bulls are responsible for some amazing work. Participation in

:26:35.:26:43.

rugby league has increased by more than 50% in Bradford this year and

:26:44.:26:46.

the number of women getting involved is increasing. 5% of all registered

:26:47.:26:53.

participation in rugby league in the country is in Bradford. This has

:26:54.:26:59.

increased by roughly 1% every year for the last three years. Aside from

:27:00.:27:04.

the Bulls there are 15 rugby league clubs in a five mile radius Bradford

:27:05.:27:10.

City centre. The Bulls' legacy on the field and their work off it, the

:27:11.:27:14.

strong contribution in developing rugby league and working in the

:27:15.:27:19.

community shows how important and invaluable Bradford is to rugby

:27:20.:27:20.

league. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I join my

:27:21.:27:31.

friend, my honourable friend also in paying tribute to some of the

:27:32.:27:37.

fantastic wins Bradford Bulls have had over many years now. Does she

:27:38.:27:44.

further agree with me that in a place like Bradford, with its high

:27:45.:27:48.

levels of deprivation, we need to do more to encourage young people and

:27:49.:27:52.

women to participate in sport, not less? Thank you, I agree with my

:27:53.:27:58.

honourable friend from Bradford East on that point. Today, however, the

:27:59.:28:04.

Bulls are a shadow of their former selves. Whereas the club and its

:28:05.:28:11.

legacy are on the brink of being lost for ever. The Bradford Bulls

:28:12.:28:14.

entered administration last month for the third time since 2012. This

:28:15.:28:19.

was devastating news for my constituency. The Bulls are a highly

:28:20.:28:29.

respected institution and in my constituency, as a proactive member

:28:30.:28:33.

of the local community. The impact was felt not just by the thousands

:28:34.:28:38.

of loyal fans but equally by the City of Bradford and the wider

:28:39.:28:44.

region. It is also a major blow to the rugby league family. In spite of

:28:45.:28:47.

their relegation to the Championship, caused by a points

:28:48.:28:54.

deduction from previous administration, Bradford has

:28:55.:28:57.

continued attracting big crowds. The club has been responsible for just

:28:58.:29:01.

over a quarter of the total of combined attendances in the

:29:02.:29:03.

Championship for the last two regular seasons. The golden era of

:29:04.:29:07.

Bradford Bulls may have passed for now but the Bulls return an enormous

:29:08.:29:14.

presence in the world of rugby league. That presence cannot and

:29:15.:29:18.

must not be lost. The Bradford Bulls need a solid foundation from which

:29:19.:29:24.

the club can be built, securing its future for generations to come, for

:29:25.:29:28.

the good of its fans, players and staff, for the good of the City and

:29:29.:29:33.

for the good of the sport. Rescued with a future in the league and a

:29:34.:29:38.

chance to rebuild, the Bulls could recover their past glory and

:29:39.:29:40.

continue being a positive force for Bradford and rugby league. It seems

:29:41.:29:46.

to me that the Rugby Football League, Bradford Council and myself

:29:47.:29:50.

are on the same page when it comes to the future of the Bulls. We agree

:29:51.:29:55.

that rugby league has to be at the centre of any deal that brings Bulls

:29:56.:29:59.

out of administration and there is a lot of work to insure that happens

:30:00.:30:03.

and that the club survives. I've met the administrators and note how much

:30:04.:30:07.

work they are doing among many others. But my worry is that this

:30:08.:30:14.

site and its stadium, the Wembley of the North, is the focus of many

:30:15.:30:19.

potential suitors. I am worried that rugby is of little to no interest

:30:20.:30:22.

and at best nothing more than a fleeting interest to some of those

:30:23.:30:26.

interested in taking the reins at the Bulls. Not all, but some. There

:30:27.:30:34.

is no doubt that the sight of Odsal has development potential which must

:30:35.:30:37.

be realised but rugby league must be at the heart of that and I hope it

:30:38.:30:41.

will be. The future does not have to be bleak. Bradford should expect

:30:42.:30:45.

top-level rugby league to be played in our City. Bradford is rugby

:30:46.:30:55.

league's Fat land. It has boundless potential -- rugby league's

:30:56.:30:59.

heartland. Soon Bradford will be home to a new rugby league Museum

:31:00.:31:03.

and that is in the pipeline, which I welcome. Bradford Council and the

:31:04.:31:08.

Rugby Football League both have a major interest in the site at Odsal,

:31:09.:31:13.

the Council owns a great deal of the land around and near to it. How

:31:14.:31:18.

exciting would that unique partnership be for the owner of the

:31:19.:31:21.

rugby club at the heart of rugby league country? Working together the

:31:22.:31:27.

Bulls could be at the centre of an exciting new regeneration of an

:31:28.:31:30.

historic and important Rugby Club. There is potential for far more.

:31:31.:31:35.

This is where I hope the Minister will take particular note. Odsal is

:31:36.:31:40.

the best located rugby ground in the country. It is the biggest, the best

:31:41.:31:46.

connected and the most accessible. And it is, as I said a moment ago,

:31:47.:31:50.

at the heart of rugby league's homeland. This is the Northern

:31:51.:31:56.

powerhouse of sport, right here. Bradford can claim to be the

:31:57.:31:59.

national powerhouse of rugby league, I have no doubt of that but the

:32:00.:32:03.

dream of what the Bulls and Odsal could become is what the northern

:32:04.:32:08.

powerhouse is all about. All it takes is the right owner, a brave

:32:09.:32:12.

and forward looking Council, the expertise and drive of eight

:32:13.:32:17.

committed RFL, and the boldness to invest. Mr Speaker, you know as well

:32:18.:32:24.

as I that rugby is a bold sport, not for the faint-hearted. But when push

:32:25.:32:30.

comes to shove, those with a role in this affair, those charged with

:32:31.:32:33.

safeguarding and developing the future of the club and the sport,

:32:34.:32:37.

must not shy away from the difficult challenges that are now apparent. I

:32:38.:32:44.

can't fail to mention how we have got here and the broader context of

:32:45.:32:49.

sport today. There is a great deal of work to do, not just by rugby but

:32:50.:32:54.

the cross sport to tackle the profiteers who seek to plunder clubs

:32:55.:32:59.

and strip them of their essence. Be they Rugby Club is, or football

:33:00.:33:05.

clubs, there is a serious issue with ownership in sport and with some of

:33:06.:33:10.

the people who take on the clubs, and this, Mr Speaker, is another

:33:11.:33:13.

point where I trust the Minister will pay particular attention. How

:33:14.:33:17.

has this been allowed to happen to the Bradford Bulls three times in

:33:18.:33:23.

five years? What is wrong in today's sporting culture that means that the

:33:24.:33:33.

Mark White of the law not successfully protect our sporting

:33:34.:33:38.

institutions? As we see elsewhere in sport, the fit and proper person,

:33:39.:33:42.

although in theory is a strong safeguard, in practice it does all

:33:43.:33:47.

too often not actually deliver what it should. The RFL's rules are

:33:48.:33:55.

designed to do two things, prohibit people who have or could have an

:33:56.:33:59.

adverse impact on the game and prohibit any club from controlling

:34:00.:34:03.

or influencing another club. And secondly and perhaps more

:34:04.:34:09.

importantly, to protect the long-term health and high ability of

:34:10.:34:14.

our clubs. We are some distance from finding out why the Bradford Bulls

:34:15.:34:18.

have ended up in this position again -- the viability of our clubs. Part

:34:19.:34:27.

of the -- are the foot and proper person rules too narrow? -- fit and

:34:28.:34:31.

proper person. Do they protect the best interests of the club's, who

:34:32.:34:36.

are always the first and most damaged. Are the roles of robust

:34:37.:34:42.

enough? Sadly I fear they are not. -- the rules. I hope that the

:34:43.:34:48.

Minister can offer assurances today about the future of humanity clubs

:34:49.:34:53.

such as the Bradford Bulls. Assurances specifically that grounds

:34:54.:34:57.

will be protected from poverty speculators, ensuring that the sport

:34:58.:35:00.

itself is at the centre of any plans rather than the site it sits on --

:35:01.:35:04.

property speculators. That the ownership of clubs will be

:35:05.:35:09.

scrutinised to ensure who is a fit and proper person. I would

:35:10.:35:13.

appreciate the Minister's thoughts as to how the Department can help to

:35:14.:35:17.

ensure that this situation doesn't happen again to the Bradford Bulls.

:35:18.:35:21.

How can the Minister ensure that the future of rugby league is protected,

:35:22.:35:25.

not just in Bradford but across the country? Lastly will the Minister

:35:26.:35:30.

support my call for a select committee hearing into the ownership

:35:31.:35:36.

of sports clubs? This would go beyond the Bradford Bulls and rugby

:35:37.:35:40.

league, and look at the ownership of sports clubs more generally. The

:35:41.:35:46.

ownership of the assets of a community sports club is crucially

:35:47.:35:49.

important, setting the direction for the club, having owners who have a

:35:50.:35:53.

genuine interest in the club is vital. The assets of a club such as

:35:54.:35:58.

its name, colours, fads and home should not be tampered with without

:35:59.:36:02.

the consent of its most powerful stakeholders -- badge. In closing

:36:03.:36:09.

can I simply say this, rugby league is a sport that has never lost

:36:10.:36:14.

contact and touch with its roots. Rugby league is and always has been

:36:15.:36:19.

a sport of working men and women on the pitch and on the terraces. Rugby

:36:20.:36:25.

league, led by clubs such as the Bradford Bulls, is a sport that is

:36:26.:36:28.

strengthening itself at the grassroots and in the community.

:36:29.:36:32.

Rugby league deserves better than what has happened to the Bradford

:36:33.:36:38.

Bulls. Bradford, the fans, the people of my constituency deserve

:36:39.:36:40.

better than what has happened to the Bradford Bulls. I hope that the

:36:41.:36:44.

Minister will commit to helping me understand how things went wrong so

:36:45.:36:52.

many times. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I called the Minister for sport,

:36:53.:36:56.

Tracey Crouch, to respond. Thank you, I would like to thank the

:36:57.:37:00.

member for Bradford South for calling this debate on the future of

:37:01.:37:05.

Bradford Bulls and rugby league. Despite being a soft Southerner I am

:37:06.:37:09.

a huge rugby league fan and one of my favourite players is Jamie

:37:10.:37:11.

Peacock who is a legend of Leeds Rhinos and Bradford Bulls. Mr

:37:12.:37:17.

Speaker, it is you in the chair, I'm grateful to say it is you and not

:37:18.:37:22.

your supporting doggy deep -- supporting deputy. Before turning to

:37:23.:37:27.

the specific issues I would like to quickly pay tribute to Mike

:37:28.:37:32.

Stevenson, a rugby league legend who stepped down from the commentary box

:37:33.:37:36.

at the end of last season. His enthusiasm for the game is

:37:37.:37:41.

infectious and armchair rugby league enthusiasts will miss him next

:37:42.:37:45.

season immensely. I was sorry to hear of the Bulls' recent problems

:37:46.:37:54.

and I understand this is a depressing time for the club. Clubs

:37:55.:37:59.

are so important and have such a positive impact at the grassroots,

:38:00.:38:05.

the club's proud heritage dates back to the very formation of the Rugby

:38:06.:38:10.

Football League over 120 years ago. Odsal Stadium is notable for hosting

:38:11.:38:16.

the record rugby league attendance, of 120000 and the club has continued

:38:17.:38:20.

having great success over the years, winning the Challenge Cup five years

:38:21.:38:25.

and -- five times and being the first club to win the domestic

:38:26.:38:32.

trouble in 2003. The foundation was judged foundation of the year at the

:38:33.:38:37.

Kingston press champions award in 2016. The foundation has worked with

:38:38.:38:41.

nearly 34,000 people so far this year, through 15 separate community

:38:42.:38:44.

projects including primary and secondary schools, coaching, playing

:38:45.:38:49.

touch rugby league and activity camps. The Sky tribe project has

:38:50.:38:56.

been very successful, delivered to 100 primary and secondary schools,

:38:57.:39:06.

and community clubs. As both members for Bradford mentioned, the Bradford

:39:07.:39:09.

Bulls women's team reached the women's Grand Final in October,

:39:10.:39:12.

inspiring future generations to get involved. I have no doubt that the

:39:13.:39:17.

sport's profile will continue to grow in Bradford as the build-up to

:39:18.:39:21.

the World Cup which was awarded to England in October following the

:39:22.:39:28.

RFL's bid to host the tournament. I was delighted, as all rugby league

:39:29.:39:34.

fans will be, that the government supported the bid with ?25 million

:39:35.:39:39.

to enhance the tournament. In this context of apparent health in the

:39:40.:39:42.

community, it is more concerning that the Bulls have had to go to

:39:43.:39:46.

administration and for the third time in recent years. The honourable

:39:47.:39:53.

lady alluded to the role of HMRC in Bradford's from rental history and

:39:54.:39:57.

it would be inappropriate to cast verdict on the club's individual

:39:58.:40:01.

circumstances while the administration process is ongoing

:40:02.:40:04.

and against the backdrop of the strict duty of confidential and he

:40:05.:40:10.

set out in legislation. In general terms, HMRC will support businesses

:40:11.:40:13.

suffering from short-term financial difficulties but not those who are

:40:14.:40:19.

insolvent. They do not enforce debts lightly but when they cannot pay,

:40:20.:40:21.

they will take action where appropriate. They would only

:40:22.:40:25.

instigate insolvency after other avenues have been tried and as a

:40:26.:40:30.

means to stop further debt accruing. HMRC monitors actions to make sure

:40:31.:40:36.

that cases are worked on properly by insolvency professionals and support

:40:37.:40:40.

actions that may increase with those two predators, which may include

:40:41.:40:45.

HMRC. On the commencement of insolvency, whether or not HMRC

:40:46.:40:49.

instigate action, it will proceed no differently from any other creditor

:40:50.:40:53.

to finalise their claim. The administrator has a duty to

:40:54.:41:00.

administer and is to get the company and HMRC will monitor to ensure that

:41:01.:41:04.

the creditors interests are being met. In these respects, HMRC will

:41:05.:41:08.

treat rugby Club is no differently to any other company entering

:41:09.:41:14.

administration. -- clubs. The future of Bradford Bulls and the wider

:41:15.:41:17.

sport depends on the ability of those involved to deliver a

:41:18.:41:21.

sustainable business model. The Rugby Football League has a clear

:41:22.:41:25.

responsibility in supporting the sport to do this, ensuring that one

:41:26.:41:31.

such long established club, repeatedly being unable to recover

:41:32.:41:35.

its financial position is not the first indicator of an endemic

:41:36.:41:39.

financial instability in the sport. I will pick up the specific issues

:41:40.:41:44.

that the lady raises regarding the owner and director's test in the New

:41:45.:41:48.

Year but in the meantime I'm sure she will be aware that work within

:41:49.:41:55.

the round ball football leagues has sufficiently reduced the

:41:56.:41:58.

insolvencies of clubs with the strengthening of owners and

:41:59.:42:02.

directors tests, and with the financial regulations to which clubs

:42:03.:42:05.

must comply to remain part of the domestic competition. In this

:42:06.:42:10.

respect much progress has been made in the sport of football, especially

:42:11.:42:11.

the lower leagues. The financial instability which many

:42:12.:42:22.

football clubs historically suffered from is not something we should let

:42:23.:42:25.

creep back into any sport and the Rugby league could learn lessons

:42:26.:42:30.

from this. Potential points deductions in the new season is

:42:31.:42:33.

obviously a cue factor in recent clearing the future ownership of the

:42:34.:42:38.

club and I would earn the RFL to continue to work closely with the

:42:39.:42:41.

appointed administrator to ensure the future of the club in this

:42:42.:42:46.

respect. The ongoing well-being of clubs like the Bradford Bulls and

:42:47.:42:49.

healthy domestic leagues are of great importance to a thriving

:42:50.:42:54.

sports sector and I am very clear that financial stability is just one

:42:55.:42:58.

facet of how the sector must continue to develop. It is important

:42:59.:43:02.

that sports clubs have good governance in place to sustain and

:43:03.:43:07.

support the financial viability so there will be a requirement in all

:43:08.:43:11.

bodies in receipt of public funding, including the RFL, to agree to a new

:43:12.:43:14.

code for sports governance and it will come into force in the next

:43:15.:43:20.

funding cycle in April 20 17. Organisations will be required to

:43:21.:43:24.

have strong leadership in place with the right checks and balances to

:43:25.:43:28.

minimise the likelihood of financial integrity issues arising. The

:43:29.:43:34.

honourable lady reflected on the importance of protecting facilities

:43:35.:43:36.

are sporting contribution to the local area. I will encourage

:43:37.:43:39.

communities to consider the provisions within the localism act

:43:40.:43:44.

which allow local groups to nominate Stadium the area as valuable assets

:43:45.:43:48.

and to ask their local authority to place them on the register as an

:43:49.:43:53.

asset of community value. By demonstrating social value

:43:54.:43:56.

communities can be given a right to buy and preserve the value should

:43:57.:44:01.

the site be put up for sale. Bradford Bulls are a positive force

:44:02.:44:05.

in the local community and I have no doubt that their prompt

:44:06.:44:08.

reinstatement to the Rugby football league would be a wonderful boost to

:44:09.:44:12.

the area and the sport more widely. This reinstatement remains at the

:44:13.:44:16.

discretion of the RFL and remains dependent on the new owners in place

:44:17.:44:20.

but I understand that there are interested parties engaging with the

:44:21.:44:25.

appointed administrator. I hope that this can deliver an exciting new

:44:26.:44:28.

phase for Bradford Bulls and I wish the club the very best in the

:44:29.:44:34.

future. Order. As many as are of that opinion say aye, on the

:44:35.:44:41.

contrary, no. The question is that the house do adjourned. The ayes

:44:42.:44:43.

have it. Order, order. These days there is no shortage of

:44:44.:45:58.

news from Westminster, on television, online

:45:59.:45:59.

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