Browse content similar to 09/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
Line | From | To | |
---|---|---|---|
system that provides security and dignity in old age. Order. Urgent | :00:00. | :00:08. | |
question, Mr Peter Kyle. I would like to ask the Secretary of State | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
for Justice to make a statement on the emergency review to determine | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
how to ban perpetrators of domestic violence from directly | :00:16. | :00:17. | |
cross-examining their victims within the family court? Mr Speaker, can I | :00:18. | :00:26. | |
start by saying how grateful I am to the honourable member for the chance | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
to update the House of what is an important issue. To put this in | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
context, the issues at stake in family proceedings are always | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
sensitive and often complex. The decisions of the court can have far | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
reaching implications for the individuals concerned. The presence | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
of domestic abuse only exacerbate an already traumatic situation. The | :00:48. | :00:53. | |
government has taken steps to make sure victims in the family justice | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
system have support and protection. Protected legal aid for individuals | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
seeking protection from abusers. We continue to invest in the court | :01:04. | :01:06. | |
estate to improve the physical security of family courts and the | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
emotional support available for users. We have placed particular | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
emphasis on training for those who work in the family justice system, | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
making sure they understand the nature and impact of domestic abuse | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
and they act appropriately when they come across it. We know there is | :01:23. | :01:28. | |
more to do. As my colleague, the Minister for victims, made clear | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
when this was debated in Parliament on the 15th of September, the | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
government is determined to improve the family justice response to | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
domestic abuse and we have been working closely with judges and | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
others to consider what additional protection may be necessary. We are | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
particularly concerned about the fact that unrepresented, alleged | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
perpetrators can cross examine their alleged victims in family | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
proceedings. I want to make family court processes safer for victims so | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
they can advocate effectively for themselves and for the safety of | :02:07. | :02:11. | |
their children. This cannot happen while a significant number of | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
domestic abuse victims face cross-examination by their abusers. | :02:16. | :02:19. | |
The Lord Chancellor has requested urgent advice on how to put an end | :02:20. | :02:25. | |
to this practice. This sort of cross examination is illegal in the | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
criminal courts and I am determined to see it banned in family courts | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
also. We are considering the most comprehensive and efficient way of | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
making that happen. That will help family courts to concentrate on the | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
key concerns for the family and always put the children's interests | :02:42. | :02:45. | |
first, which is what they are supposed to do. This work, which is | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
being fast tracked within the Department, is looking in particular | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
at the provisions in the criminal law which presents alleged | :02:56. | :02:57. | |
perpetrators from cross-examining their alleged victims in criminal | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
proceedings, and we are considering how we might apply similar | :03:03. | :03:06. | |
provisions in the slightly different circumstances of family proceedings. | :03:07. | :03:10. | |
Members will appreciate such a proposal does require thought, but | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
we want to resolve it as soon as possible. We will be making further | :03:15. | :03:19. | |
details available shortly once the work is complete. I would like to | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
thank the president of the family division who has argued passionately | :03:25. | :03:26. | |
that this practice should be outlawed for good. This is an issue | :03:27. | :03:33. | |
that has been wreaking untold devastation on victims of domestic | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
violence. I have spoken to numerous survivors of abuse his accounts of | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
torment under cross-examination, often by convicted rapist in the | :03:42. | :03:45. | |
family Court, are devastating to hear but impossible for most of us | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
to imagine. I have spoken to woman who was cross-examined by a man who | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
was in jail for numerous counts of rape and abuse that left her | :03:54. | :03:56. | |
unconscious and hospitalised. As a result of the family court process, | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
this vulnerable woman needed weeks of medication and months of | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
counselling to recover. She has now suffered this ordeal three times. I | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
have spoken to the sister of a woman who was abuse egregiously it | :04:11. | :04:14. | |
resulted in her death. The convicted murderer then sued the custody of | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
their child from prison where he was serving a life sentence for murder. | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
He directly cross-examined the sister of the woman he murdered. | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
Even having the grotesque nerve to ask, what makes you think you can be | :04:29. | :04:35. | |
a parent to my child? Abuse is being continued, perpetuated right under | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
the noses of judges and police. The very institutions that should be | :04:42. | :04:43. | |
protecting the vulnerable with every sinew of state power. On September | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
the 15th last year in response to speeches from members from both | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
sides of the House, the Parliamentary under Secretary of | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
State for Justice said this was a scourge which blights our society. | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
Yet he made no commitment to review or to change policy. Sadly, it took | :05:04. | :05:06. | |
the excellent coverage of the Guardian over the Christmas break | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
for that to emerge from the Justice Department. However, the source was | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
anonymous. Can the Minister give clarity in the following areas... | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
Lord Justice Mumby, the president of the family court division supports | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
members to outlaw the cross-examination of victims by | :05:23. | :05:27. | |
perpetrators. He said this would require primary legislation. Does | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
the Minister agree with this assessment? If so, would he | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
prioritise the drafting and the deduction of any such legislation as | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
a priority? The anonymous source told the Guardian, this was a matter | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
of urgency for the Secretary of State. Can he tell the House, when | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
this review was started, and more importantly, when it will be | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
completed? Victims of abuse need to have precision and clarity at this | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
moment of great importance for them. Speed is of the essence, but so is | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
consultation. We need to get this right. Can the Minister tell us what | :06:02. | :06:07. | |
process is underway to enable victims and campaigners and support | :06:08. | :06:11. | |
organisations to feeding their essential experiences and views in | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
order that this review will at all times, be carried out with and not | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
done too, survivors of domestic abuse. And finally, as I told the | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
House back in September, it is a source of shame to me personally, I | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
got the age I am today without being aware such barbarism is being | :06:30. | :06:33. | |
practised within our own legal system. In addition to my lack of | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
inquisitiveness, which I regret profoundly, the secrecy imposed by | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
law on the family court process allowed this to continue without | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
journalistic oversight. Will he consider longer term assessment of | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
the wider operational activity of the family court system? This should | :06:53. | :06:56. | |
look in a considered and detailed way of the overall operation of the | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
family courts with a view to making sure, where appropriate, the greater | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
transparency and oversight of the family court process is introduced? | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
Order. Just before we proceed, let me just say this, the honourable | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
gentleman has raised an extremely serious matter and he has done so on | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
the back of considerable knowledge and research. He has aired the issue | :07:19. | :07:24. | |
in this House with great sensitivity. I did not wish to | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
interrupting, not least for that obvious reason. But perhaps I can | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
announce to the House New Year's resolution and that is, we must, | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
from now on, we must, without fail, stick to the established time limits | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
for urgent questions. The honourable gentleman was notified of the two | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
minute limit and he took over three minutes. The second point, the brief | :07:50. | :07:57. | |
this preamble of description is fine, but an urgent question is | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
supposed to be that, not a speech, not a contribution to debate, but a | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
series of questions. I know the honourable gentleman well and I know | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
he will not take offence because he has raised important matters, but in | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
future it must be done in accordance with the proper form and to time. | :08:16. | :08:18. | |
The Minister of April. Can I start by agreeing with the | :08:19. | :08:28. | |
honourable gentleman on many of the points he has made. Judges have | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
always had discretion to try to get to the truth of the matter and to | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
protect families and so on and judges have discretion to ask | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
questions themselves to avoid situations arising which are against | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
the interests of justice. But over recent years the judges have come | :08:46. | :08:52. | |
more concerned about situations, as the honourable gentleman has said, | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
where the abuse is being perpetrated through the proceedings and that is | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
why Sir James Mumby has spoken out and why the department is treating | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
this as something that should be dealt with as a matter of urgency. | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
Is it necessary to change the law? The answer is it is. In order to ban | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
cross-examination it would be necessary for primary legislation | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
and there are ancillary matters relating to this which would require | :09:19. | :09:24. | |
legislation. Is work being done? Yes, it is being done at great pains | :09:25. | :09:28. | |
to ensure that all these matters are dealt with in a comprehensive and | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
effective way and so the urgency is there. This is something I became | :09:34. | :09:38. | |
the minister dealing with these matters in October. I chaired the | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
family Justice board and we have become very concerned over that | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
period about this issue and the Lord Chancellor shares that concern, | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
which is why we are moving at speed to try and tackle this. The extent | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
to which consultation is necessary is something I will consider in the | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
light of the honourable gentleman's comments and will discuss it with | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
him in private. But it is pretty straightforward what is required, a | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
band and then the ancillary measures which are necessary to allow | :10:12. | :10:13. | |
cross-examination without the perpetrator doing it. The extent to | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
which a wide consultation is needed I will question. Finally, in terms | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
of transparency in the cause, journalists are now able to attend | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
court and report proceedings but there are obvious restrictions to | :10:28. | :10:36. | |
protect children and the like. The Minister is to be congratulated on | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
moving promptly on this matter and the family division is to be | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
congratulated. Would my right honourable friend accept the simple | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
solution would be probably to adopt the criminal procedures under the | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
1991 legislation lock stock and barrel and use the format to put | :10:56. | :11:02. | |
that into primary lock and accept the very modest public expenditure | :11:03. | :11:08. | |
of a court appointed to do the cross-examination where justice | :11:09. | :11:10. | |
requires would be a drop in the ocean compared to the benefits and | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
the interest of justice to individuals who are victims of | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
abuse? I am very grateful to the chairman of the Select Committee for | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
those comments. I agree with a good deal of it. There are some | :11:25. | :11:27. | |
differences from criminal proceedings. For example in a case | :11:28. | :11:34. | |
where an injunction is being sought whether it is not a criminal charge | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
or a case where perhaps money is being considered, but there is a | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
background of abuse. In fact for legal aid in cases of domestic abuse | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
that is a wider list than is available in terms of criminal | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
proceedings, but the basic point he makes is right. As to the bill, I am | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
not able to give a commitment on that, it would depend on how quickly | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
the work was concluded and that is something I am working on very fast. | :12:05. | :12:14. | |
I thank the honourable member for hope for asking this urgent question | :12:15. | :12:16. | |
and that the Minister for asking this response. This issue really | :12:17. | :12:26. | |
unite the House. Questioning victims in court has been repeatedly raised | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
in this house and in the media. Many members on both sides of the House | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
have constituents who have been left devastated by the experience so that | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
the government is doing something to no end this practice is welcome. But | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
this is a clear admission that the legal aid cuts have caused this | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
situation. Victims of domestic violence struggled to provide | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
evidence of their abuse because frequently they are not believed. In | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
some cases medical evidence is difficult to obtain and their | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
experience is made worse still because the abuser is also unable to | :13:05. | :13:08. | |
get representation and is allowed to question them. Even in a situation | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
where they are prevented from contacting that situation and so the | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
abuse continues. But it need not be that way. In the criminal cause the | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
cross-examination of a member accused of domestic violence is not | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
allowed. Is the Ministry counting the numbers of litigants in person | :13:28. | :13:32. | |
in the family courts? How many of those are victims of domestic | :13:33. | :13:37. | |
violence? How many are convicted or alleged to have committed domestic | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
violence? Will the Minister look to the practice in criminal cause and | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
alongside prohibiting cross examination introduce greater use of | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
more sensitive procedures? When will the review finally begin? At the | :13:51. | :13:59. | |
honourable lady knows on her final point the review has to be concluded | :14:00. | :14:06. | |
by the 18th of April, sorry by April, 2018, so it is not overdue | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
yet, but it is something the government has very much in mind and | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
which we will have to start fairly shortly. In terms of the other | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
points, legal aid is available in cases of domestic abuse, that is why | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
the government concentrated its efforts in legal aid on areas where | :14:25. | :14:32. | |
people's lives liberties were at stake and in areas such as domestic | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
abuse and housing were homes were at risk, so that is not an issue. But I | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
accept the evidence criteria are important and that is why the | :14:42. | :14:45. | |
government has allowed a longer period and a wider range of evidence | :14:46. | :14:51. | |
to be used for that. I think that is something that has been welcome. | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
Cross-examination by litigants in person takes place too much and she | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
asked what the exact number is. It is not clear, but it is a | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
considerable number, which is why the government considers this to be | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
an important issue to tackle. Can I congratulate my honourable friend | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
and welcome everything he says about the government's attitude to this | :15:15. | :15:18. | |
long-standing problem. Could I urge him to look at the rules in relation | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
to legal aid because there is strong anecdotal evidence from former | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
colleagues of mine at the family bar and a judiciary that there is a | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
direct consequence and link between the rise in litigants in person and | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
the changes to legal aid actually begun under the last Labour | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
government and it is this link between litigants in person that is | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
causing so many of these problems and would he at least look at it and | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
it may provide some of the solutions. As my honourable friend | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
has rightly said, this is a long-standing issue, but it is one | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
which has become particularly urgent and where the cries for help from | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
the judges and others have become more urgent and that is why the | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
government is tackling this issue. As regards litigants in person, it | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
is necessary to find a way of stopping them using proceedings to | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
continue the abuse. That is what we are aiming to do. May I welcome the | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
Justice Secretary's emergency review and stress how important it is that | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
we all focus across the UK on how to prevent the perpetrators of domestic | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
abuse from using the processes of the justice system. In Scotland the | :16:34. | :16:41. | |
government is engaged in a significant overhaul of the justice | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
system ahead of the introduction of new legislation to introduce an all | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
encompassing offence of domestic abuse to include all forms of | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
coercive behaviour. In Scotland legal aid is widely available in | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
both criminal and civil cases. In England and Wales are cuts to legal | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
aid mean 80% of family cases seek at least one party without a lawyer and | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
60% of cases in the family courts and neither partner has a lawyer. | :17:11. | :17:16. | |
Victims of domestic abuse can only access legal aid if they cross a | :17:17. | :17:19. | |
threshold test which has already been found to be too restrictive in | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
the judicial review case. What we really need in addition to this | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
review is a review of the criteria for access to legal aid for victims | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
and survivors of domestic abuse. When will the government commit to | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
that sort of review? The honourable and learned lady segued into a | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
question just in time! I thank the honourable lady for that and for her | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
news from Scotland. In terms of legal aid in England and Wales it | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
was deliberately decided by my right honourable friend to concentrate the | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
effort on the cases where people's' life, liberty and their homes or | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
where there have been domestic abuses. Give it was a period of | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
austerity and decisions had to be made, he got that judgment right. In | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
terms of the criteria for legal aid and the evidence that needs to be | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
provided, it is not as though the government has said it is set in | :18:18. | :18:21. | |
stone. When criticisms have been made we have changed the rules to | :18:22. | :18:25. | |
make a system which tackles those criticisms. My overall point would | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
be that the government is responding when it should. Can I welcome a | :18:32. | :18:41. | |
right honourable friend's announcements today and the work he | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
is doing with the Lord Chancellor. But can I also draw his attention to | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
a report published in April of this year which I published with my | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
honourable friend the member for Birmingham Yardley, which not only | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
picked upon this issue of cross examination, but look at the issues | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
of special measures in court to make sure it is easier for some of the | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
most vulnerable victims to give their evidence so they do not feel | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
intimidated in that process? Can I pay tribute to my right honourable | :19:14. | :19:19. | |
friend's work in this area which is important. I know the government and | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
the ministerial committee that looks and violence against women and girls | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
takes a particular note of it. As regards special measures, the family | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
courts have always had a wider set of tools available to them than the | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
criminal cause and the judges have a wide discretion. Measures such as | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
taking cross-examination on a video basis, the section 28 in the | :19:44. | :19:48. | |
criminal courts, you can do that in family cases. You can take evidence | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
in a wide variety of ways, so there is a lot of protection there. We are | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
going further with this and so measures to deal with the court, | :19:58. | :20:02. | |
like ensuring there are separate waiting rooms, screens and those | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
sorts of physical aspects, they are being covered. So is the training of | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
the staff which is very important as well. I want to thank the Minister | :20:12. | :20:21. | |
for highlighting the discretion already available. Could he say what | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
steps he is taking now to remind the judiciary of the discretion that | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
they have and how they can apply it? The honourable lady makes an | :20:32. | :20:34. | |
important point and there are practice directions in the family | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
division and one is being prepared at the moment and so I will make | :20:38. | :20:43. | |
sure her comments are taken well on board in that direction, although we | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
do not make the practice directions, but we can pass that on. I have been | :20:48. | :20:56. | |
struck in my constituency surgeon sees surgeries, and one of my | :20:57. | :21:04. | |
constituents complaining about this was a former police officer. Can I | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
urge the Minister to use every tool possible to get this matter resolved | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
as soon as possible? We have all had examples and I am glad my honourable | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
friend was able to get that on the record. We have all had examples of | :21:20. | :21:27. | |
cases were in a way and abuse has occurred in the court. That is | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
something that is unconscionable and needs to stop and we need to tackle | :21:31. | :21:32. | |
this very urgently. The question of who should be | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
involved and consulted in this review, will the Minister Bear in | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
mind party litigants cross-examining their victims is actually just one | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
species of the controlling behaviour that lies at the heart of domestic | :21:51. | :21:57. | |
abuse. It is for that reason there is a real and important role for | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
organisations such as women's aid to have their voices heard in this | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
process? The honourable gentleman makes an important point and of | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
course the department does listen to what is said. The only point I make | :22:12. | :22:18. | |
is this is a discrete issue. It is an issue about banning | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
cross-examination by alleged perpetrators and making arrangements | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
to ensure cross-examination can take place in a suitable way. I wouldn't | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
want to sacrifice speed in tackling that for anything. Last week the | :22:34. | :22:43. | |
country were shocked and saddened by the death of my constituent, Gill | :22:44. | :22:52. | |
savoured, who campaigned for victims of sexual violence. She was | :22:53. | :23:01. | |
instrumental in changing the law which stopped rapist cross-examining | :23:02. | :23:03. | |
victims. Will my right honourable friend join me in paying tribute to | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
Jill, expressing our sincere condolences to her family does he | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
agree it is absolutely right the law is extended to the victims of | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
domestic violence? I certainly think it is important to pay | :23:23. | :23:36. | |
tribute to Jill Saward and she was someone who showed to the rest of | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
her life what a wonderful person she was. Campaigning and doing charity | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
work. She was a model and someone who was the example of good. I would | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
like to pass the law which applies in criminal cases on into family so | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
we can tackle the abuse described. I declare my interest as a member of | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
Wilberforce chambers in Hull, although not currently practising. I | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
welcome the Justice Secretary's position to bring forward a review | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
of this issue. It clearly is an issue. But the Minister will no that | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
this was created as a result of the legal aid sentencing and punishment | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
of offenders act in 2012, because the truth is this, the very vast of | :24:25. | :24:33. | |
what people now are refused legal representation in family | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
proceedings, unless they can prove domestic violence, which is | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
virtually impossible to prove. So maybe the government should be | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
bringing forward a review, it isn't working, do something about it. I | :24:48. | :24:52. | |
don't agree with him, but can I just say there will be a review, it is | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
something we have promised. The date by which it has to be completed is | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
in April 2018 and three are committed to doing that. In terms of | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
the family proceedings, I think it is right that in many cases families | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
can come together and reach agreements and we don't have the | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
problem he outlined. But in some cases, and there are a significant | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
number of individuals where abuse is present. In those cases, it is | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
important the individual who is the victim shouldn't be cross examined | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
by the alleged perpetrator and that is what we want to solve. Earlier we | :25:30. | :25:41. | |
heard a cherry, now we can hear a Berry. Mr Jake Berry. Thank you Mr | :25:42. | :25:48. | |
Speaker. Can I congratulate the Minister as to the taking this on. | :25:49. | :25:57. | |
In his statement he has referred this as urgent. Will he commit when | :25:58. | :26:02. | |
this review is complete, to bring this through as emergency | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
legislation? I think it would forward support from all sides of | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
the House and we could do with this legislation in one day in ensuring | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
this could be changed as quickly as possible. Can I save the importance | :26:13. | :26:20. | |
of this is accepted across the House. Whether it is the appropriate | :26:21. | :26:24. | |
way of dealing with it or not, one thing is clear it should be dealt | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
with as a matter of urgency and that is what I am committed to do. They | :26:29. | :26:30. | |
should have said in the case of the point Laspo. On several occasions, | :26:31. | :26:54. | |
the Minister has said he's dealing with it urgently. When will we the | :26:55. | :27:00. | |
result? Of course the answer you get from the dispatch box is shortly, | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
which is what I have said, but that doesn't mean shortly. The | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
government's reforms around the family courts were designed to keep | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
some of these antagonistic cases out of court altogether but the changes | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
to legal aid had met there are more litigants in person in these very | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
sensitive cases. Does he acknowledge the being caused by litigants in | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
person on court resources, spinning out the times cases often take with | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
constant advice legal procedures needed by the judge himself. We need | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
to do something about this because it is messing up the family courts. | :27:37. | :27:46. | |
I do accept how litigants are helped with court proceedings is important | :27:47. | :27:53. | |
and the government spending ?3.5 million helping them. The point I | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
make, it is not every case that needs to be decided in court and I | :27:59. | :28:02. | |
am a strong supporter of mediation. I would like to see more of that. | :28:03. | :28:08. | |
This is a welcome review, but cross-examination is not the only | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
way which perpetrators exploit family core processors to perpetuate | :28:13. | :28:17. | |
their abuse. Can I ask the Minister if the emergency review will look at | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
the other ways in which abusers can, string out judicial process in the | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
family courts to continue abusing former partners and their children? | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
I will be happy to discuss the issue with the honourable lady and | :28:33. | :28:34. | |
certainly in due course about the matter. But, this is a discrete | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
area. It is an important one and I would like to see it tackle swiftly. | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
I am not looking to widen what we are doing at the moment. I want to | :28:44. | :28:52. | |
get on with this. Women's Aid have raised this issue and a number of | :28:53. | :28:57. | |
occasions, including most recently where they found 25% of women they | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
interviewed had been cross-examined on including one woman who had been | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
raped, beaten and abused over six years, had been cross-examined for | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
three hours. Notwithstanding the need to get it right, can I ask my | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
honourable friend, when he does get it right in terms of review, we move | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
to bring legislation as soon as possible to make sure this can never | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
happen again? My honourable friend highlights an important case. He | :29:25. | :29:27. | |
highlights the work of Women's Aid and I think he is right to say this | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
is a matter that needs to be tackled urgently. The need for training of | :29:31. | :29:40. | |
the judiciary goes beyond the family Court. I constituent of mine came to | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
see me because her ex-partner talk a case in the civil courts about the | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
management of family property. The judge said it was irrelevant that he | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
was in prison for raping her daughter. This cannot be right, they | :29:56. | :30:02. | |
need to be trained as well. Of course, that would not have been a | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
family Justice case, it would have been a civil case. I agree with the | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
honourable lady, that is also an important consideration. It is | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
something I will look into. I very much welcome what the Minister has | :30:21. | :30:24. | |
said today in his commitment to legislate. But in the meantime will | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
he ensure the best possible support is in place to support these very | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
vulnerable people, these victims, before, during and after these | :30:34. | :30:38. | |
proceedings? Yes, as I mentioned in my response to the urgent question, | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
a lot of effort has gone into training both court staff and others | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
to provide emotional support that is needed. While I think we all welcome | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
the tone of what the Minister has said today, this is supposed to be | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
an urgent review. Many women are going through these cases right now | :30:59. | :31:03. | |
so can we have some clarity that at least by Easter this review will be | :31:04. | :31:10. | |
concluded and we will look to see improvements in our courts? Yes, I | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
agree with that. I welcome the tone of the Minister's remarks. Will he | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
agree with me the point about legal aid misses the fact some of these | :31:20. | :31:23. | |
perpetrators are using the ability to cross examined as a tactic in the | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
courts, motivating what they are doing and it is more important is | :31:30. | :31:32. | |
plugged in the law is made to stop this practice from continuing? What | :31:33. | :31:40. | |
is being put forward by a number of colleagues and my honourable friend | :31:41. | :31:46. | |
has made the same point, it is a form of abuse in itself to be cross | :31:47. | :31:50. | |
examining the victim in these circumstances. I agree with that, | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
which is why we are keen to conclude this review on a short timetable, as | :31:56. | :32:02. | |
I said to the honourable lady. I am grateful to the Minister for the | :32:03. | :32:05. | |
terms in which he has replied to the urgent question. He has talked about | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
the urgency of this issue. He has accepted the words of the chairman, | :32:11. | :32:17. | |
the president of the family court that primary legislation would be | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
needed. What commitment can he give to those survivors of domestic | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
violence and abuse that change will be brought forward urgently? I can | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
make the assurances I have made, we are tackling this as a matter of | :32:35. | :32:41. | |
urgency. There is a busy legislative timetable with all sorts of matters | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
to do with Europe and the like and we will have to see what can be | :32:45. | :32:49. | |
achieved in terms of the legislative timetable, but I want to tackle this | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
urgently. On behalf of of my constituent, Claire, whose children | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
were murdered by her ex-husband, I welcome this review. But in the | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
debate in September which I co-sponsored, the minister at his | :33:06. | :33:12. | |
side made a clear commitment to overhauling the culture of the | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
family courts, and in particular our review our practice direction 12. Is | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
the government still committed to the broader set of changes we so | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
urgently need to see? Can I just beat to the to the work the | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
honourable lady has done on this issue. The family justice board | :33:31. | :33:39. | |
which I'd share with another minister, the honourable member for | :33:40. | :33:42. | |
Crewe and Nantwich. We are committed to improving the overall in which | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
way the courts work and we are in the process of having a new practice | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
direction in the area of victims. But it is certainly a point we are | :33:53. | :34:01. | |
very much alive too. Everyone who has spoken today has said how urgent | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
the situation is, including the minister himself. In view of this | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
and in view of the fact he has said primary legislation will be needed, | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
is there any reason why he could not present this in three or four | :34:15. | :34:21. | |
months? As I have said to her colleague, we are keen to complete | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
this review as a matter of urgency. Legislative programme is a complex | :34:28. | :34:30. | |
matter at the moment, for reasons which I have already hinted that so | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
we will have to see what is possible. But we would like to | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
tackle it urgently. The questions has been on domestic violence, but | :34:40. | :34:46. | |
can he confirm he is also seeking to implement this protection for | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
victims of emotional, financial control and other forms of | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
nonviolence abuse, which the government has, to its great credit, | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
sought to criminalise in recent months? As he will know, there is a | :34:58. | :35:06. | |
cross governmental approach to abuse which has its own definitions and so | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
on. If he looks at the areas covered for abuse when it comes to | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
applications for legal aid, he will see it is far wider than just | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
physical violence, it includes sex abuse cases and the like. We are | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
well alive to the need to cover a wider area than simply violence. | :35:25. | :35:32. | |
Whilst I appreciate the urgency and scope of the investigation, can he | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
give consideration to cases where the DWP are sharing the victims of | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
domestic abuse's information with the perpetrators of the crime when | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
making their decisions about benefits claims and giving, in the | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
case of my constituent, her anonymity being taken away from her | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
and it was passed on by the DWP? I am sure the honourable lady is | :35:56. | :36:00. | |
making an important point. If she wanted to write to me speak to me | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
about it I would be happy to look at it. But it is not what we are doing | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
in this particular exercise by looking at the cross-examination of | :36:10. | :36:15. | |
alleged perpetrators, it is a discreet, narrow area which we are | :36:16. | :36:18. | |
tackling and we wanted tackle urgently. It is a different matter, | :36:19. | :36:28. | |
but her point is important. Survivors of domestic abuse tell us | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
they feel read Victor Mize and re-traumatised by their experience | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
in the family Court. Could the minister give us more clarity on how | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
the voices and views of survivors of domestic abuse will be considered in | :36:42. | :36:42. | |
this emergency review? Well, my view of this is that it is | :36:43. | :36:56. | |
now though issued to ban perpetrators, or alleged | :36:57. | :36:58. | |
perpetrators from cross examining victims. I think this is something | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
we all agree on. The sort of arrangement that there need to be | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
put in place to tackle the issue of cross-examination are things that | :37:08. | :37:10. | |
are being tried in the criminal courts. If she has any particular | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
ideas or concerns about that I would obviously be happy to discuss it | :37:15. | :37:19. | |
with her, but I don't think it is a complicated matter, but a simple one | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
that needs urgent action. Thank you, whilst I'm aware that this debate | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
focuses on the adult victims of domestic abuse, research shows that | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
an estimated hundred and 30,000 children in the UK live in | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
households with high risk of domestic abuse where there is a | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
significant risk of harm or death and thousands more live with other | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
levels of domestic abuse every single day. Can the Minister please | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
clarify that as recommended by Women's Aid, there must not be an | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
assumption of shared parenting in cases where domestic abuse is a | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
feature? Well, I mean it is an important point and clearly the | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
courts are very alive to this, but I think we do have to give some | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
discretion, because the family cases are very wide and have the range of | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
factors in them. I think the judges do a good job and I would just like | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
to put on record that these aren't easy cases and judges do have to | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
have an area of discretion. Although she makes a good point I would like | :38:28. | :38:33. | |
to insure that remains the case. Thank you. Constituent came to meet | :38:34. | :38:39. | |
extremely distressed she was having her husband repeatably take a back | :38:40. | :38:42. | |
to the family court over access issues, so not only was she having | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
the cross-examination she was also being driven into poverty by having | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
to fund her own defence and her own case. Will the Minister also look at | :38:54. | :39:01. | |
how courts can look at fixation is, repeated requests over access which | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
are actually behind a lot of this POS of behaviour? -- a lot of this | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
coercive behaviour. I think she makes a very important point, I am | :39:14. | :39:19. | |
more than happy to raise this in the family Justice board and to look at | :39:20. | :39:24. | |
it, but it's not part of the important work we're doing at the | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
moment to try and do something urgently the issue of | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
cross-examination. It is appointed that bears on it but it is not the | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
absolute focus on what we're doing at the moment. But it is and we will | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
look forward to -- we will look into. Statement the Secretary of | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
State secretary Jeremy Hunt. With the mission I would like to | :39:47. | :40:05. | |
make a statement about mental health and NHS performance. This government | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
is committed to a shared society in which public services work to the | :40:10. | :40:15. | |
highest standards for everyone. This includes plans announced by the | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
Prime Minister this morning and mental health. I am proud that under | :40:19. | :40:25. | |
this government 1400 more people are accessing mental health services | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
every day compared to 2010. We are investing more in mental health than | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
ever before, with plans for a million more people with mental | :40:34. | :40:36. | |
health conditions to access services by 2020. But, we | :40:37. | :40:52. | |
recognise there is more to do and so we will proceed with plans to | :40:53. | :40:54. | |
further improve mental health provision including formally | :40:55. | :40:55. | |
accepting the recommendations of the independent task force on mental | :40:56. | :40:57. | |
health which will see mental health spending increase by ?1 billion a | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
year by the end of parliament. A green paper on children and young | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
People's mental health to be published by the end of the year, | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
enabling every secondary school to train someone in mental health first | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
aid. A new partnership with employers to support mental health | :41:13. | :41:16. | |
in the workplace, at ?250 million extra invested in places of safety | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
for those in crisis following the highly successful start to this | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
programme in the last Parliament. An ambitious expansion of digital | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
mental health provision and an updated and more comprehensive | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
suicide prevention strategy, further details of these plans are contained | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
in the written ministerial statement. However, telling the | :41:39. | :41:46. | |
winter, as are most precious public surface the NHS has been under | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
sustained pressure for a number of years. In just six years the number | :41:51. | :41:58. | |
of people over 80 has risen by 340,000. And life expectancy has | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
risen by 12 months. As a result demand is unprecedented. The Tuesday | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
after Christmas was the busiest day in the history of the NHS. Some | :42:09. | :42:14. | |
hospitals are reporting that Amy attendances are up to 30% higher | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
compared to last year. -- A attendances. I therefore hope to set | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
out how we intend to sustain it for the future. First I would like to | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
pay tribute to staff on the front line. 1.3 million NHS staff, | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
alongside another 1.4 million in the social care system, do an incredible | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
job which is frankly humbling for all abuzz in this House. An | :42:46. | :42:54. | |
estimated hundred and 50,000 medical staff and many non-medical staff | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
worked on Christmas Day and New Year's Day, they have never worked | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
harder to keep patients save and whole countries in their debt. With | :43:01. | :43:08. | |
respect to this winter, the NHS has made more extensive preparations | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
than ever before. We started the run-up to the winter period with | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
over 600 more doctors and 3000 more nurses. Then just a year ago. | :43:18. | :43:24. | |
Bringing the total increase since 2010 to 11,400 more doctors, and | :43:25. | :43:32. | |
11,200 more hospital nurses. The NHS allocated ?400 million to local | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
health systems for winter preparedness, it is nationally | :43:37. | :43:38. | |
assured the winter plans of every trust, it launched the largest ever | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
flu vaccination programme with over 30 million people already | :43:44. | :43:48. | |
vaccinated, it also bolsters support outside a unease with 12,000 | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
additional GP sessions -- A The result has been that this winter has | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
already seen days where a unease have treated an extra number of | :44:01. | :44:05. | |
people within four hours. -- a record number of people. As head of | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
NHS providers said, "Although there have been serious problems at some | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
trust, the system as a whole is doing slightly better than last | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
year." However, there are indeed a number of trusts where the situation | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
has been extremely fragile, all of last week's a neat guy that happened | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
at 19 trusts of which four are in special measurements. The most | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
recent stats show that three quarters of the folly weight | :44:38. | :44:43. | |
occurred in three trusts. In Worcestershire there has been a | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
number of unexpectedly long trolley waits. We are also aware of ongoing | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
problems in North Midlands with extremely high numbers of 12 hour | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
trolley waits. Nationally the NHS has taken urgent action to... As of | :45:01. | :45:13. | |
this week and there are some signs that that pressure is using both in | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
the most distressed trusts and across the system. However, with a | :45:18. | :45:25. | |
further cold weather and the way a spike in respiratory infections and | :45:26. | :45:28. | |
a rise in blue will bring further challenges ahead. So, NHS England | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
and NHS improvements will also consider further measures which May | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
be taken in particularly distressed systems on a temporary basis at the | :45:41. | :45:42. | |
discretion of local clinical leaders. They may include temporary | :45:43. | :45:51. | |
release in time for GPs to support urgent care word, clinically | :45:52. | :45:53. | |
triaging non-urgent calls to the Ambulance Service before they are | :45:54. | :46:00. | |
taken to hospital, continuing to suspend collective care including | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
where appropriate suspension of non-urgent outpatient appointing is, | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
working on rapid reinspection when this has potential to reopen at | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
capacity, working with community trusts and community nursing teams | :46:18. | :46:20. | |
to speed up discharge. Taking together these actions will give the | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
NHS the flexibility to take further measures as and when appropriate at | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
a local level. However, looking to the future, it is clear we need have | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
an honest discussion with the public about the purpose of A | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
departments, there is nowhere outside the UK that commits to all | :46:41. | :46:45. | |
patients that we will also out any health need within four hours, only | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
four other countries New Zealand, Sweden, Australia and have similar | :46:50. | :47:12. | |
national standards which are generally less stringent than ours. | :47:13. | :47:14. | |
This government is committed to maintaining and delivering that | :47:15. | :47:16. | |
vital for our commitment to patients, but since it was announced | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
in 2000 there are nearly 9 million more visits to our a unease, up to | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
30% of whom NHS England estimates do not need to be there and the tide is | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
continuing to rise. So, if we are continuing to respect this for our | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
standard we to be clear it is for urgent health problems not all | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
health problems however minor. As the NHS England's medical director | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
for acute care has said, "No country in the world has a standard for all | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
health problems however small, and if we are to protect services for | :47:46. | :47:51. | |
the most honourable neither can we." So we will continue to explore ways | :47:52. | :47:56. | |
to ensure that at least some of the patients who do not need to be in | :47:57. | :48:07. | |
A This way we will be able to improve the patient experience for | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
those with more minor conditions who are currently not seen within four | :48:12. | :48:15. | |
hours as well as protect the four hour promised for those who actually | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
need it. Mr Speaker, taken together what I have announced today are | :48:22. | :48:26. | |
plans to support the NHS in a difficult period, but also plans for | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
a government that is ambitious for our NHS, quite simply to offer the | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
safest, highest quality care available anywhere for both mental | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
and physical health. But they will take time to come to fruition and in | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
the meantime all our thoughts are with NHS and social care staff who | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
were working extremely hard over the winter and throughout the year both | :48:50. | :48:53. | |
inside and outside our hospitals and I commend the statement of the | :48:54. | :49:00. | |
House. I'm grateful to the Secretary of State for advance copy of his | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
statement and I begin by playing tribute to all the NHS staff who are | :49:04. | :49:07. | |
working day in day out to provide the highest possible care to | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
patients at the Spivey period. Of course, we welcome measures to | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
improve mental health services. -- this busy period. We welcome and | :49:16. | :49:22. | |
such announcements 12 months ago when the then Prime Minister made | :49:23. | :49:25. | |
these announcements. But do you not agree that if you want to shine a | :49:26. | :49:31. | |
light on mental health position you should aim had taught and... A | :49:32. | :49:41. | |
reduction in mental health head, 400 fewer doctors working in mental | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
health and perhaps most disgracefully of all the raiding of | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
children's local mental health budgets in order to plug funding | :49:50. | :49:58. | |
gaps in the widening NHS. Why were you unable to compare that the money | :49:59. | :50:06. | |
the mental health would be ring fenced? We would welcome support on | :50:07. | :50:11. | |
measures to improve mental health in schools, would the government offer | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
more resources to local authority psychologists, and what provision | :50:18. | :50:19. | |
would be in place to give teachers suitable training? Tending to the | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
winter crisis, this morning the Secretary of State said that things | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
have only been, "Falling over in a couple of places." Let's look at the | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
facts, a third of hospitals declared last month they needed help to deal | :50:38. | :50:47. | |
with patients coming through the doors, 15 hospitals ran out of bed | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
in one day in December, several hospitals have warned they can't | :50:54. | :50:58. | |
offer comprehensive care, elderly patients have been left languishing | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
on hospital trolleys in corridors sometimes but over 24-hour 's and he | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
says care is only falling over in eight couple of places. I know Lala | :51:09. | :51:15. | |
land did well at the globes last night, I didn't realise the | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
Secretary of State was living there, perhaps that's where he was all | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
weekend. Can he confirm that the NHS is facing a winter crisis and the | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
blame for this lies at the door of number ten Downing St? Does the | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
Secretary of State agree it was an error to ignore the pleas for extra | :51:34. | :51:41. | |
funds for social care in the Autumn Statement? Willy now bring forward | :51:42. | :51:49. | |
extra money allocated the social care's and Willie edge the | :51:50. | :51:58. | |
Chancellor and the Prime Minister... And with respect to the four hour a | :51:59. | :52:04. | |
any target he has just announced can repressive however, is he now really | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
telling patients that rather then trying to hit back for our target, | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
the government is now free writing and down grading it? If so, does NHS | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
England support this move and what guidance has he taken from the Royal | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
College of emergency medicine is that this is an appropriate change? | :52:26. | :52:32. | |
This Secretary of State has made patient safety a priority in that he | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
has our support, will he agree that one of the most upsetting reports to | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
come out of hospitals last week was the death of two patients at | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
Worcestershire wall and hospital trolleys. Can I ask the Secretary of | :52:47. | :52:51. | |
State whether he will lead an enquiry into these deaths? Does he | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
know whether these were isolated incidences and when does the trust | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
it intend to report back and will he undertake to keep the House updated | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
on these matters? In conclusion, there is no doubt that this current | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
crisis could have been averted, hospital bottoms, council leaders, | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
patient groups, MPs, urged the council to give the NHS and social | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
care extra money in the Autumn Statement, those requests fell on | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
deaf ears and we are now seeing the dismal consequences. NHS staff | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
deserve better, patients deserve better, the government needs to do | :53:31. | :53:32. | |
better can I I am happy to respond to his | :53:33. | :53:46. | |
comments and the Commons of all on rebel members. But I say this about | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
the tone of what he said. He speaks as if the NHS never had any problems | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
over the winter when Labour was in power. Let me say to him very | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
simply, the one thing NHS staff don't want right now is for any | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
party to start weaponised in the NHS for party political purposes. Let me | :54:09. | :54:16. | |
remind him when his party runs the NHS, double the number of people are | :54:17. | :54:20. | |
on waiting lists for treatment, people wait twice as long to have | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
their hips replaced. Whatever the problems are in the NHS, Labour is | :54:26. | :54:33. | |
not the solution. He talked about mental health. Let me tell him what | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
is happening on mental health. Thanks to the efforts of this | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
government and the Conservative led coalition, we have some of the | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
highest dementia diagnosis rates in the world. Talking therapies | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
programme, which is one of the most popular programmes for the treatment | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
of depression and anxiety, is treating 750,000 more people every | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
year and is being copied by people in Sweden. We are treating, every | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
day, 1400 more people for mental health conditions. We have record | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
numbers of psychiatrist. He mentioned mental health nurses, we | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
are training 8000 more, 22% increase. This is backed up by what | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
we are confirming today, which hasn't been done before, the | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
government is accepting the report of the independent task force review | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
led by the Chief Executive of Mind which commits us to spending ?1 | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
billion more on mental health by the end of this Parliament. That would | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
not be possible with the spending commitments Labour was prepared to | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
make NHS in the last Parliament. It is because of this government's | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
funding we can make this commitment on mental health. Now, he talked | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
about the NHS and he gave completely the wrong impression of what I said | :55:52. | :55:57. | |
this morning. I was completely clear that all NHS hospitals are operating | :55:58. | :56:00. | |
under greater pressure than they have ever operated under. But, he | :56:01. | :56:06. | |
should perhaps listen to independent voices like Chris Hobson, no friend | :56:07. | :56:11. | |
of the government when it comes to NHS policy, who is very clear that | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
in the vast majority of trusts, people are coping slightly better | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
but we have serious problems in a few trusts, including Worcestershire | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
and a number of others. I can commit to him we will follow closely, the | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
reports and investigations into the two reported deaths at | :56:33. | :56:34. | |
Worcestershire and keep the House updated. He talked about social | :56:35. | :56:42. | |
care, social care last year 's spending went up by around ?600 | :56:43. | :56:49. | |
million. He stood on a platform at the last election of not a penny | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
more to local authorities for social care. Not a penny more. To stand | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
here as a defender of social care is frankly an insult to vulnerable | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
people up and down the people, but particularly people living under | :57:06. | :57:07. | |
Labour councils like Hounslow, Merton and Ealing, where they are | :57:08. | :57:13. | |
refusing to raise social care but complaining about social care | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
funding. He also talked more generally about NHS funding. I'd | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
just say this... In the last Parliament it wasn't the | :57:23. | :57:25. | |
conservatives who put funding for the NHS, it was his party who put | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
funding for the NHS. It wasn't the Conservatives who said funding the | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
five-year forward view was impossible, it was his party. They | :57:36. | :57:38. | |
said the cheque would bounce. It hasn't bounced and we are putting | :57:39. | :57:45. | |
that money in. Tough as it is on the NHS front line, I do say he was | :57:46. | :57:48. | |
right to raise this issue in this House, but wrong to raise it in the | :57:49. | :57:56. | |
way he did. The NHS as record doctors, record nurses, record | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
funding, care, despite the pressures of winter is safer, high-quality and | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
reaching more people than ever before and it is time to support | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
those on the front line not try to use them for party political points. | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
I welcomed the Secretary of State's statement and the Prime Minister's | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
focus on mental health. She spoke of holding the NHS leadership to | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
account for the extra billion that will be investing in mental health. | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
Could the Secretary of State set out in further detail how CCG 's will be | :58:28. | :58:34. | |
held accountable so we can deliver progress and parity? I can | :58:35. | :58:43. | |
absolutely do that. We have had a patchy record in the NHS of making | :58:44. | :58:46. | |
sure money promised for mental health actually reaches the front | :58:47. | :58:52. | |
line. The way we intend to address this is by independently compiled | :58:53. | :58:55. | |
Ofsted style ratings for every CCG in the country that actually | :58:56. | :59:01. | |
highlights where mental health provision is inadequate. Those | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
ratings are decided by an independent committee chaired by the | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
same Paul Farmer, who is responsible for the independent task force | :59:11. | :59:19. | |
report. I am confident we can shine a light on those areas that are not | :59:20. | :59:27. | |
delivering. After the recent enquiry the Health Select Committee did into | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
suicide, I absolutely welcome the extra funding to mental health and | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
I'm sure the Secretary of State remembers some of the discussions we | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
had in that room. I also pay tribute to the staff and obviously with my | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
background, I know what it is like when A is swamped when you don't | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
have anywhere to put people. I don't think the staff across NHS England | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
are afraid of us discussing this topic and weaponised and yet, they | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
are in tears, they are exhausted, they are demoralised, they have | :00:01. | :00:05. | |
never experienced a winter like this. Perhaps the secretary of State | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
can explain why his figures suggest 19 diverts and only two trusts in | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
serious problems. Where as what we're hearing from the Nuffield | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
trust, it is 40 or 50 trusts diverging, which it is absurd. That | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
means it is widespread. Talking about, and I people going to A who | :00:24. | :00:30. | |
don't need to be there, but they are not the people three deep on | :00:31. | :00:33. | |
trolleys waiting for a bed for 36 hours. Those are people who need a | :00:34. | :00:40. | |
bed and they are ill. We have discussed sustainability on several | :00:41. | :00:43. | |
occasions and the concern people have is because they don't have the | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
money to redesign, they are starting with A closures and bed cuts. I | :00:50. | :00:55. | |
would hope this incident would show that simply isn't possible. It is | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
not possible for the UK and particularly NHS England to lose any | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
more beds. In Scotland we face the same problem of increased demand and | :01:05. | :01:13. | |
shortage of doctors. A 49% of our patients were seen within four hours | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
in Christmas week. And it is estimated in areas of England, it is | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
within 50 and 60%. The difference is how it is organised, it is the | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
fragmentation, the lack of integration. There are things to be | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
done, use community pharmacies and GPs and try and bring the NHS back | :01:33. | :01:38. | |
together. I hope the honourable lady won't take offence if I say her | :01:39. | :01:44. | |
questions must be judged to be rhetorical questions. Secretary of | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
State. I was handy at-bats, but that was | :01:48. | :02:05. | |
then! This is now, that was when I was a badly behaved backbencher, | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
like the honourable gentleman. Secretary of State. I will try to | :02:09. | :02:15. | |
interpret the questions in what she said. If he is saying are the | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
problems in England similar to Scotland, I think we share problems, | :02:21. | :02:23. | |
particularly across the busy winter period and she has observed in | :02:24. | :02:29. | |
Scotland they are failing to meet targets in Scotland. But she is | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
right to say bed capacity is an absolutely critical issue. It is an | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
issue which we have not always got right in England. Beds have been | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
decommissioned and actually the alternative provision that was | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
promised has not been made and it has had knock-on effects. When it | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
comes to what happens in Scotland and England, Scotland has gone | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
further than England in terms of use of community pharmacy and that is | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
something to be commended. But England has gone further in our | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
plans for reforming and increasing investment into general practice, | :03:04. | :03:07. | |
which is what the president of the Royal College of GPs was talking | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
about over Christmas, and she is keen for Scotland to match the | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
package we have done in England. I commend my right honourable friend | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
for his statement. All of us know the work done in our local areas and | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
those working for the NHS at such a difficult time. In relation to | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
mental health, would he confirmed the Prime Minister's welcome speech | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
this morning emphasised Perrinelle -- Perry mental health but also | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
emphasise the point of transparency to make sure we know what it is CCGs | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
are doing and assist members of parliament in the work, not only | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
when we call for extra resource, but to make sure we play our part in | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
making sure locally, our area does the best they can in compared with | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
other areas rather make a general point and resources, which is the | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
easiest one to make? As my colleague in the Department of Health who did | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
a huge amount of good work on mental health, and on perinatal mental | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
health, 20% of mothers suffer some form of postnatal depression and | :04:18. | :04:22. | |
that has a huge impact on the child, costing around ?10,000 for every | :04:23. | :04:31. | |
birth in the country caused by lack of proper mental health provision. | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
This plan today means we can treat an extra 30,000 women, which we | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
think is the number of women that need to be treated better. On | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
transparency, he makes an important point. I would put it like this. | :04:43. | :04:48. | |
Funding matters, but when it comes to mental health, we have some of | :04:49. | :04:52. | |
the best mental health provision in the world, but it is inconsistent. | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
The only way we can get it consistent is by shining a light on | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
the different parts of the country, so we can bring all areas up to the | :05:01. | :05:03. | |
standards of the best. Mr Dennis Skinner. Is the Minister aware, when | :05:04. | :05:12. | |
he says there are 9 million more patient visits now, as opposed to | :05:13. | :05:18. | |
the year 2000, it makes no sense at all that in that climate, shutting | :05:19. | :05:27. | |
hospitals like the Community Hospital in Bolsover, and the | :05:28. | :05:35. | |
Secretary of State turns a blind eye to it, will he look at this question | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
because when you shut those hospitals, the beds are gone for | :05:40. | :05:49. | |
ever. Get stuck in. I actually think he does make an important point. It | :05:50. | :05:56. | |
isn't just about decisions to downgrade or close A when there | :05:57. | :06:03. | |
isn't alternative provision, but it is community hospitals, which are | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
important places for A and hospitals to step people down to. He | :06:08. | :06:14. | |
is right, I am getting comments, but this is a process that has been | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
going on in the NHS for decades and we have not always got it right | :06:19. | :06:22. | |
under both parties. But he is right is said we need to make sure when | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
there are changes in provision and community hospitals, we have good, | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
alternative plans. Order. In wishing two members of the best in the weeks | :06:35. | :06:43. | |
and months ahead, I Andrea Jenkins. First of all I would like to echo | :06:44. | :06:47. | |
some of the points the Secretary of State has made. Regarding the | :06:48. | :06:58. | |
support the mental health for expectant mothers. As one myself, | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
the midwife has been fantastic right from the very first appointments, at | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
grassroots level. We are feeling it on the ground. | :07:08. | :07:15. | |
while 50 young people in Yorkshire received care the mental health, how | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
would this new approach address the concerns of young people and their | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
parents and what measures are in to reduce the waiting list? I would | :07:28. | :07:34. | |
like to add my very good wishes and my confidence that she would get | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
superb care from the NHS and thank her for her campaigning and | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
patients' safety. She will be pleased to hear... In numbers, the | :07:45. | :07:52. | |
plan that we are outlining will mean that we are treating a million more | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
people a year with mental health conditions when it comes to young | :07:58. | :08:04. | |
people an additional 70,000 people will get treatment every single year | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
and that will I hope bring down the Camhs waiting times. But, we also | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
want to do work in schools to stop people getting on this waiting list | :08:14. | :08:20. | |
in the first place. The young mind survey before Christmas showed that | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
in 50% of clinical commissioning group areas there is a failure to | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
spend the full amount of investment allocated to children and young | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
people's mental health. Which is scandalous. I noted his point about | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
Ofsted like ratings, but doesn't he need instant use a system that | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
guarantees that the money for children's mental health is spent as | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
intended? He is writes to want to make sure that we live up to those | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
promises that matter he is right. He was a minister when some of them | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
were made and they are important promises. But I would say to him | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
that we are delivering what he wants, we are on track this year to | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
spending over a billion more compared to when he was Minister for | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
mental health. It has taken time for the NHS to get their message on | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
mental health but is getting through loud and clear. As a frequent user | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
of the Red Cross myself, and admirer of it I regard their claims of being | :09:25. | :09:32. | |
over the top. I'd join with the Minister in his tribute to the | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
front-line staff of the NHS. Would he agree with me that these | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
pressures are not in the go away and there must be a continuing drive for | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
reform and to do these things better? And what will he tell the | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
House, what are the impediments in the NHS to the sharing of best | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
practice and secondly what steps is he creating, is he taking to create | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
a more experienced and better trained leadership who are more | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
prepared for the exceptional medical and management challenges the NHS | :10:07. | :10:15. | |
now faces? Well, my right honourable is friend speaks extremely wisely | :10:16. | :10:19. | |
and I think we have to be careful about the language we use in these | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
situations, because many honourable people can be frightened if you get | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
the tone wrong and the vast majority of NHS services are performing | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
extremely well. His point and leadership is important, and one I | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
have given a lot of thought to come at the heart of it the problem is | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
that in this country, we don't have enough hospitals being run by | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
doctors and nurses. Alain 56% of our managers have a clinical at ground, | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
-- around 56%. Which compares to 96% in Sweden, to put it bluntly doctors | :10:54. | :11:00. | |
like to be given instructions by other doctors. If you are an | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
exceptional person, non-clinical background you can do it, but it is | :11:05. | :11:08. | |
hard because doctors are highly experienced people, so I have put in | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
place measures to try and make it easier for more clinicians to become | :11:13. | :11:18. | |
an managers of the future. In wishing the honourable member for | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
Liverpool way victory... In her speech to date the Prime Minister | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
made a number of many hard-hitting observations, she said "There is no | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
excluding the fact that people with mental health problems are not | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
treated the same as if they had a physical ailment." She told us about | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
the shocking reality that an average 13 people take their life every | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
single day in England. Given that the Conservative Party has been in | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
government for almost seven years and the Secretary of State has been | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
Health Secretary for almost four of those years, he does he think is | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
responsible for the PowerBook failures highlighted by the pie | :12:03. | :12:10. | |
minister today? -- I think that is a totally inappropriate question. With | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
great respect to her, and she campaigned tirelessly on mental | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
health and deserves great credit and that is, that is the same as saying | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
that the last Labour government should have sorted out every single | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
problem in mental health by 2010, and another stunning him and saying | :12:31. | :12:34. | |
that because the truth is that we have made good progress. If she | :12:35. | :12:41. | |
thinks it's trivial but we are treating 400 people every day... She | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
should go inspectors some of her constituencies who are getting | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
access to mental health... We have made big strides but there is much | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
more to do and we are determined to do what it takes. Recognising that a | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
supply of extra resources for the NHS will be a rifle and continuing | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
issue, isn't my right honourable friend right when he says that equal | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
attention needs to be given to controlling demand so that people | :13:15. | :13:19. | |
don't instinctively make calls an GP services in any department which | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
doctors themselves believe are avoidable and can be dealt with in | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
other ways? I think my right honourable friend 's beak is | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
extremely wisely and at the heart of it, we have a good commitment, | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
before our commitment. -- speaks extremely wisely. I think it is one | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
of the best thing the NHS does, the problem that it you are ill we will | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
do something about it in four hours. However, if you have a situation | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
which NHS England describes as of the 30% of people don't taxi need to | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
be there, then you risk not being able to deliver that promised the | :14:00. | :14:05. | |
people that axiom do need it. Looking at control of demand for | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
people who don't need to be in Amy 's, and -- Amy Makros. He seems to | :14:10. | :14:23. | |
believe blaming the public for... He well knows that the reason the | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
public go to Amy is because they can't get their GP and social care | :14:28. | :14:34. | |
is in crisis. Will he confirm that he has announced a significant | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
watering down of the four hour commitment and what is he personally | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
doing to address the chronic long-term underperformance of | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
hospitals like that of Worcester where two people died and trolleys. | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
And Plymouth who wear one of the hospitals that had to call in the | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
Red Cross. I think probably because of the fall and that we are in now | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
he is misinterpreting what I have said, but it needs to be put right. | :15:03. | :15:09. | |
-- because of the fall. I have not watered down the four our target I | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
have recommitted the government to. Maybe he wasn't listening but I just | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
said that I thought it was one of the best things about the NHS. But, | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
the public will go to the place where it is easier to get in front | :15:24. | :15:29. | |
of a doctor quickly and if we don't recognise that there is an issue | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
with the fact that people who don't need to go to Amy Makros are going | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
there we won't make their needs better by his constituencies and | :15:39. | :15:43. | |
mind. If he asked what are we doing to in difficulty, we have introduced | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
a new chief inspector of hospitals, which his party tried to write down. | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
Mr Speaker can I welcome the Prime Minister's announcement and the | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
Secretary of State's confirmation about the extra support the mental | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
health and particularly welcomed the review to be led by Lord Stevenson, | :16:04. | :16:09. | |
as they carry out that review into improving businesses ability to | :16:10. | :16:12. | |
support people with mental health problems can they look at how we can | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
help smaller businesses, those that don't have the human resource | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
expertise that larger businesses may have, to make sure that people with | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
mental health and stay in work and are able to get back into work when | :16:25. | :16:33. | |
they fall out of work. They are the biggest single category of disabled | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
people not currently working and we could make a huge difference. He | :16:37. | :16:38. | |
will know that from his distinguished time as a minister in | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
the blue WP -- in the DWP. We are trying to address the fact that if | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
someone stops going to work, is signed off because of severe | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
depression, that is ad for the individual and for the business. | :16:54. | :17:00. | |
But, too often what happens is then it becomes entirely the NHS's | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
responsibility to get that person after work. And the business think | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
it's not their responsibility not any more. But with help from the | :17:08. | :17:10. | |
business we could get that has them back to work much more quickly, | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
which would mean they would recover more quickly and the business | :17:15. | :17:22. | |
wouldn't lose so much money. We will never solve the challenges facing | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
the NHS and social care until there is a long-term settlement for | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
funding both. Does the Secretary of State understand that the social | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
care preset is completely inadequate to filling in the gap and will | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
increase inequalities because the areas that most need probably bonded | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
pair will be least able to raise that money? Will he speak to the | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
Chancellor and this the energy secretary to look again at this | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
issue and get the funding social care desperately needs? I do agree | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
with hair that there are serious funding pressures and social care | :18:02. | :18:04. | |
and we need a long-term solution to this and we are doing important work | :18:05. | :18:09. | |
on that. I think the preset is part of the solution the local government | :18:10. | :18:15. | |
settlement has been adjusted to take account of the different spending | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
powers or revenue raising powers of wealthier counties and local | :18:22. | :18:24. | |
authority areas compared to other areas. We have to take into account | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
the equality issue. But, issue saying how we sold the whole | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
problem, the answer is no there was more work to do. Can I welcome the | :18:34. | :18:43. | |
statement that could I pay a huge tribute to everyone working at | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
Nottingham University trust especially inanely and especially in | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
the nine days between Christmas and January the 2nd -- especially in the | :18:51. | :19:00. | |
nine days. There are hundred and 80 people in the Amy Department seeking | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
treatment, 395 more admissions then discharges in that nine-day period. | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
So, we'll huge tribute to everyone. Could I get an assurance that he | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
will continue to work with our hospital trusts as they bring | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
forward plans to change schemes, it's not just simply about money, | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
and do everything he can to support them? I am happy to do that and I | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
will echo her praise for this staff at Nottingham University trust, who | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
I know where particularly pressured over Christmas, and two I know made | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
particular efforts to improve patient safety at the recent years. | :19:43. | :19:48. | |
But, she's absolutely right and I will continue to work closely with | :19:49. | :19:56. | |
her trust. At 930 this morning I received an e-mail from a | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
constituent in Coventry who asked me to bring it to the Secretary of | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
State's attention and I'm late to do so. She writes as fied "I'm an nice | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
with 26 years experience who is always worked full-time -- I'm an | :20:11. | :20:20. | |
nice. But I have gladly served and given 100% to do it. Unfortunately, | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
my 18-year-old daughter has recently become and were mentally and | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
attempted suicide twice in a three-week period. I'm sad to say, | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
this comes in nursery 26 years experience. The care she has been | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
given is appalling. I expect that as a family who gave so much to society | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
and still do, when it is our time in need we can expect a service that | :20:50. | :20:58. | |
meets our needs. " Could you arrange... She continues that she | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
has been waiting six months without any mental health assessment or | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
support from the NHS, six months for a daughter of 18 years of age. Will | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
he agreed to meet her so it's just not more hollow words? I am more | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
than happy to meet her, but I would rather, what I would like to do | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
ahead of that is to look at the particular issue as to why she has | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
to wait so long. He puts it very eloquently, and she puts eloquently, | :21:31. | :21:31. | |
we Of thank you. The House of, is | :21:32. | :21:57. | |
library calculated the real terms increase in health related spending | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
between 2010 and 2016 in England was 9.4%. But it was zero in Wales. Not | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
only are A waiting times longer in Wales than in England but routine | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
procedures can take two and a half times longer in Wales. I regularly | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
see constituents in tears waiting well in excess of the year for hip | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
operations. Would the secretary of state agreed that the party opposite | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
must start acknowledging the challenges that the NHS Wales and | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
responsibility for them? I think his constituents in Wales would be | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
appalled by the reaction we have just had then. They stand on their | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
high horse complaining about NHS care in England but when he brings | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
up poor NHS care in Wales they make noises as if they don't want to hear | :22:50. | :22:55. | |
it. If they care about NHS patients, they should care about them through | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
the whole of the United Kingdom. NHS care in Wales is worse and they need | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
to do something about it. Avec Cooper. I have been contacted by | :23:04. | :23:12. | |
several constituents who spent 14 hours in A waiting for a bed. We | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
have been hampered by social care cuts, by a shortage of A doctors. | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
Some think the health department was warned would become a growing | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
problem over five years ago. And the Health Select Committee warned about | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
again last year. When will this shortage of A doctors be ended by | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
the government, by the summer? By next year, the following year? He | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
has had seven years. When will he deal with the shortage of A | :23:44. | :23:55. | |
doctors? The number of A doctors have gone up since 2010 by 1002 and | :23:56. | :24:02. | |
that, over 50% increase. The number of A consultants has gone up by | :24:03. | :24:10. | |
20%. We have recruited 2000 more paramedics and as a result of those | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
changes, are a emergency departments are seeing, within the four hour | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
target, 2500 people more every single day, compared to 2010. It is | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
not to minimise the pressures in the NHS over winter and that doesn't say | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
there isn't more that needs to be done, which is why I outlined a | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
number of things in my statement. The Secretary of State came to see | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
the plans of the emergency room at Worthing hospital. I hope next time | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
he comes he can look at the Community Hospital and the mental | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
health services as well. Can I put to him on the child mental health | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
care, we have 700,000 teenagers going through each year, each stage | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
and a quarter of them will have bumps and need resilience. The | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
parents and teachers need help, can he make sure the Green paper covers | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
advice to parents and teachers so they know what's in the normal range | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
of behaviours and what is outside them? Can I commend the right | :25:11. | :25:17. | |
honourable gentleman for his one-man campaign against the misinformation | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
put out by 38 degrees, which I continue to admire on many | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
occasions. Also thank the staff at Worthing hospital for their | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
fantastic work over the busy period. He puts his finger on a very | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
important issue, which is, as we seek to raise the profile of mental | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
health treatment for children and young people, what we mustn't do is | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
medicalise every single moments of stress, worries before exams, those | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
are not a cause to talk to an NHS psychiatrist. A lot of our work on | :25:54. | :25:56. | |
the green paper will be how we can promote self health, support schools | :25:57. | :26:04. | |
to help people but when they do need NHL 's help, they get it quickly. It | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
is great to see the Secretary of State here in the chamber after | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
enjoying his Christmas recess. While he was away, stuff on the NHS front | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
line had to work double shifts. The London Ambulance Service computer | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
system crashed. And we also found the Red Cross needed to be drafted | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
into our hospitals. Can the Secretary of State tell us today, | :26:31. | :26:33. | |
which hospitals he personally visited during the Christmas recess? | :26:34. | :26:41. | |
Let me just say, I was in touch with what was happening in the NHS every | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
day throughout the Christmas recess. But as someone who has worked in a | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
hospital herself, she might perhaps think about whether it is | :26:51. | :26:55. | |
particularly helpful for NHS hospitals to have visits by | :26:56. | :26:57. | |
high-profile politicians right at their busiest period. But I have | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
been very closely in touch. She talked about the problems at London | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
Ambulance Service, which was a problem, which staff had been | :27:09. | :27:15. | |
trained to deal with. I just say to her, her own hospital, the staff | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
worked extremely well. What they don't welcome is the attempts, I | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
think she is making this afternoon, to try to politicise the the NHS | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
faces. In connection with the changes to the four hour stand of | :27:30. | :27:32. | |
the Secretary of State has heralded, what does he think can be done to | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
incentivise and upscale GPs, who may wish to a closer interest in minor | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
and moderate illnesses, including the use of nurse led minor injury | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
units? These have a very important role and I think if we look at some | :27:50. | :27:55. | |
of the most successful and best performing trusts in the country | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
like Luton and Dunstable for example, what they do is they have a | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
very good streaming process at the front door with good alternatives | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
for people who are not appropriate to go into an A department. Nurse | :28:10. | :28:16. | |
led units can be important, GP led units can make a difference as well. | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
It won't be the same everywhere, for reasons of space and nothing else, | :28:21. | :28:26. | |
but there is a solution everyone can adopt. We have seen in the last few | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
weeks, pressures in the NHS, but what is surprising to me, given we | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
are not in the midst of a desperate cold spell yaps, we're not in the | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
throes of a flu epidemic, how can the secretary of state come here | :28:46. | :28:47. | |
today and I think in place in league, suggest he has a grip on the | :28:48. | :28:52. | |
services in the NHS. I'd like to know why he wasn't on top of those | :28:53. | :28:56. | |
trusts he knew for a week and potentially under threat if any | :28:57. | :28:59. | |
pressure occurred. What will he do when we hit the cold snap and people | :29:00. | :29:03. | |
are suffering from flu in large numbers? I reject that suggestion | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
and if you want to know what we have been doing over the course of the | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
year, as I said in my statement, we have 1600 more doctors than a year | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
ago. Over 3000 more nurses. We have the biggest flu vaccination in our | :29:21. | :29:27. | |
history, we have additional GP sessions booked over the festive | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
period. There was a huge amount of work being done and the particular | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
focus on distressed areas. Many of those distressed areas did cope | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
extremely well, not all of them, which is why there is more work to | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
do. The health committee in the last parliament luck that children's | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
mental health services and one of the main concerns was distances | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
travelled by patients, sometimes halfway across the country to get | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
treatment. Can you expand on his plans, and is it a new form of | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
gatekeeper and can he keep drunks out of A? Rather than the phrase | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
gatekeeper, I would use the word streaming and make sure we have | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
alternative offers for people who don't need to be in A departments. | :30:17. | :30:25. | |
That is not safe for A departments to have people there for six or | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
eight hours, it is distracting for staff and harder for them to do with | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
people who have more immediate needs. In terms of the distances | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
travelling, it is an acceptable for people to go 400 miles for a mental | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
health bed. What is the solution? We are commissioning more beds, but the | :30:45. | :30:48. | |
solution is to intervene earlier, so people don't get to the stage in | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
treatment where they need inpatient care. We know if we intervene | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
earlier, in many cases, we can head off that need and help people get | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
better quickly. This afternoon, the patients in Nottingham are waiting | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
for more than four hours. In the last month, figures are available, | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
3500 people who had to wait for more than four hours in the emergency | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
department. We cannot go on like this. Will he agree to fast-track | :31:17. | :31:24. | |
the capital we need to increase capacity at Nottingham's emergency | :31:25. | :31:27. | |
department? I will happily take a look at that and when it comes to | :31:28. | :31:32. | |
the allocation of capital, we do prioritise any project that will | :31:33. | :31:37. | |
help improve the situation in any department and reduce stresses. The | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
Secretary of State has acknowledged there is a shortage of acute mental | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
health beds and there's arises from a decision by many health trusts to | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
close beds and favour putting resources into services in the | :31:52. | :31:56. | |
community. One effect of this, people approaching and mental health | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
crisis find it harder to know where to turn for help. Will he explain | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
more about the crisis provision in which we are now investing this | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
extra ?50 million, and in particular is there a common way of knowing how | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
one can easily access these vital services? I am happy to supply more | :32:15. | :32:22. | |
details. The ?50 million is for places of safety that is | :32:23. | :32:25. | |
specifically focused on support for the police service, so we can make | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
sure we live up to what will be our legal commitment from this year, not | :32:31. | :32:35. | |
to send young people into police cells, when actually what they need | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
is a mental health support. But more broadly, he is right, there is a | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
policy change, which I think most people think is the right thing, | :32:44. | :32:46. | |
which is to treat more people in the community where we possibly can. | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
What I think is not working is the system which divides people up into | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
40 years. Sometimes we say to people, we cannot treat you because | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
we are in TF three and you are not sick enough. That is not acceptable | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
and that is why we are doing this Green paper and we want to look at a | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
way forward. Does the Secretary of State accept it is not solely down | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
just to an ageing society in the crisis and deepening crisis of the | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
NHS and the failure to provide sufficient funding is the key to | :33:25. | :33:27. | |
this crisis and therefore it is possible to address and what will he | :33:28. | :33:36. | |
do about it? If she is worried about funding, she might explain why | :33:37. | :33:39. | |
funding for the NHS in England went up by double the rate than funding | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
in Scotland over the last Parliament. But she is right... I | :33:44. | :33:50. | |
will get heard the figures on Northern Ireland. I say that by way | :33:51. | :34:02. | |
of reference. But let me agree with her, as well as apologising for my | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
earlier error, let me agree with her, it isn't just about the ageing | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
society. It is also about changing consumer expectations, people want | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
access to health care 20 47 today in a way that wasn't the case ten or 20 | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
years ago and that is a cause of a lot of the additional pressure. I | :34:23. | :34:29. | |
welcome this announcement on mental health and it is clear the | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
government is serious about improving mental health treatment | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
and prevention. The challenge is to translate ambitions into action. Can | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
my right honourable friend assure me he will put in place mechanisms to | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
make sure these proposals and those in the five-year forward view for | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
mental health become reality? And specifically, would he look that one | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
step is to make sure that no STD is signed off without clear plans of | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
funding for improving mental health care. -- STP. It is happening and | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
one of the key metrics by which we will be junked judging STPs. She is | :35:04. | :35:14. | |
right ambitions need to be turned into action. But because of the | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
Commons that she and many other members have made over the last few | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
years, she will find there is much more understanding in the NHS that | :35:22. | :35:27. | |
this is a big priority. We need to stop resources constantly being | :35:28. | :35:29. | |
sucked into the acute sector, as has happened over many years. The | :35:30. | :35:39. | |
Secretary of State announced the government were pressing ahead with | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
significant cuts to community pharmacy budget in the Department of | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
Health, in the face of huge opposition from members of both | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
sides of hours, members of the public and health care | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
professionals. Given evidence one in five people, who would normally see | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
a pharmacist for medical advice, say they will make a GP appointment if | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
the local pharmacist is closed and in areas of high deprivation I moan, | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
it is four in five. Many of these people will turn about the local | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
hospital in desperation. Isn't the government in danger of making an | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
appalling crisis in the NHS even worse? We are having to ask the | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
pharmacy sector to make efficiency savings, just as we are asking all | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
part of the NHS make efficiency savings. 40% of pharmacies are | :36:25. | :36:30. | |
clustered in groups of three or more. Does make sense for the to | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
continue to subsidise pharmacies that are very close to river | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
pharmacies, so this is to ensure that where there is only one local | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
pharmacy, that pharmacies protected. Does my right honourable friend | :36:45. | :36:54. | |
acknowledge the damaging effect that loneliness can have on mental | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
health, and will he join me in welcoming the Jo Cox loneliness | :37:01. | :37:07. | |
commission later this month? I am happy to do that and to acknowledge | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
the importance of this issue, when it comes to older people per latest | :37:12. | :37:17. | |
figures I have seen is that 5 million older people say that their | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
main form of company if the television. That is not acceptable | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
and we all have the responsibility to do better in that the spec. Not | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
just from moral point of view but from a practical point of view, this | :37:29. | :37:34. | |
leads to people more likely to need hospital treatment which is | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
expensive and challenging for the NHS. Thank you Mr Speaker. The | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
secretary of this date has talked a great deal about preventing people | :37:45. | :37:50. | |
getting to A by intervening much earlier, yet surely he has to do | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
recognise that the cuts that have been made to local authorities, in | :37:54. | :37:59. | |
social care make it much more likely that people will not be picked up | :38:00. | :38:04. | |
earlier in the progress of any illness and will go and have to | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
resort to the health service in a much more difficult situation. Can't | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
he now have a discussion with his colleagues on the front bench and | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
tell them, particularly the Chancellor, that they have got this | :38:19. | :38:23. | |
wrong, we have to do invest in preventative services, we funding | :38:24. | :38:30. | |
authorities not cutting. It means investing in proper social care, not | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
the ?5 billion of cuts that we have seen in social persons 2020, | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
otherwise the pressure on our NHS will discontinue. Actually, I agree | :38:41. | :38:47. | |
with her broad points about the importance of the social care system | :38:48. | :38:51. | |
and its interconnectedness with the NHS and we faced in 2010 as you well | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
knows, because her party's manifesting the fact that this is | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
well, we faced a very challenging economic situation in which both | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
parties recognised the need for cuts to be made in public spending, but | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
what teams in 2015 at least in our party 's manifesto was the | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
recognition that actually when it came to social care we need to make | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
sure we increased funding into the social care. And all local | :39:19. | :39:25. | |
authorities are now able to increase funding for social care in real | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
terms and I hope we can start turning things around. Thank you | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
very much, with the recent educational select committee report | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
on children in care in mind I certainly welcome the Prime | :39:40. | :39:44. | |
Minister's be focused on mental health and the Secretary of State's | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
continued support of action to be taken, but what steps does he has in | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
mind to deliver actual practical steps given that we found that local | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
integration, effective relationships and the teaching of PSA cheeks all | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
helped to produce good outcomes. I think he's absolutely right and | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
obviously his role in the select committee will give him a particular | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
insight into this. But, we don't want to rush to come to a solution | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
on this which is why we will simply do a green paper before the end of | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
the year because it is complex. As the other honourable members have | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
alluded to the risk of metallising problems when we know that all young | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
people at school have periods of stress and anxiety and worry that an | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
diagnosable mental health conditions and we wouldn't want to make them as | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
such. So, this is about thinking through a smart way to improve | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
self-help and also to educate school so that they are able to spot when | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
this is just a temporary period, in the run-up to exams or whatever, or | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
whether it could be something a lot more serious like OCD or an eating | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
disorder or something that needs more immediate help. That is | :40:58. | :41:02. | |
something went to date we have started a big education programmes | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
with schools ball and go further. Q. I would like to welcome the extra | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
investment if it turns out to be extra investment in mental health. I | :41:13. | :41:19. | |
wanted to push the Secretary of State and the question around | :41:20. | :41:21. | |
educational psychology and how that is going to work in, I speak as a | :41:22. | :41:30. | |
mother of a child with SEN issues who has relied on clinical and | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
educational psychology in schools and the school where my children | :41:34. | :41:37. | |
currently goes to is increasing the class sizes and 30 to 33 and | :41:38. | :41:42. | |
reducing the teaching staff specifically those who engage in SEN | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
children, because of changes to educational funding. I wondered the | :41:49. | :41:51. | |
Secretary of State and tell me how he thinks that will affect the | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
children's mental health in my children's school? I think she | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
raises an important issue and I know that I have had constituents and I'm | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
sure she has as well, where they found access to educational | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
psychologists difficult and couldn't get a plan approved that they needed | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
to. This is what we will be considering in the build-up to the | :42:15. | :42:18. | |
green paper and I would encourage her to participate in the process. | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
Thank you, will the Health Secretary please get the message out there | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
loud and clear to health bosses up and down the country that we need | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
more capacity in our A so that when people come forward to NHS | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
England with the request for money for their appalling plan to | :42:39. | :42:44. | |
downgrade my local A, all those Huddersfield Royal Infirmary replace | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
it with a small unit with smaller bets, that that money would be | :42:48. | :42:53. | |
better spent on front line a need care. I of course take seriously | :42:54. | :43:02. | |
everything he says and I will say this, the NHS doesn't always get | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
these things right. I led a campaign against an A closure in my own | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
constituency when as a backbencher. And the party apps it was empower | :43:13. | :43:17. | |
and they were about to take a wholly mistaken decision. Bass macro Dub | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
party opposite was in power. So we will look carefully, and I do | :43:21. | :43:30. | |
think that the broader point he makes is that we have to understand | :43:31. | :43:34. | |
that the pasty matters. I would say that in the long run we are not | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
going to solve this problem simply by the increasing capacity in a any. | :43:39. | :43:44. | |
Because we need alternative forms of provision. Bass macro capacity in | :43:45. | :43:53. | |
the A We need to find ways of... That is what we are exploring. I | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
declare an interest as my husband is an A consultant. If the Secretary | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
of State would speak to him he would tell him that the extra pressure on | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
A, as we have had, because of the disappearance of preventative power | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
of social care, and of other services. It's not individuals | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
arriving at a any who should and it is other services with varying | :44:22. | :44:29. | |
people to A when they shouldn't. -- referring people. Would the | :44:30. | :44:34. | |
Secretary of State take responsibility for his government's | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
decisions over eight years that have panned out to be false economies of | :44:39. | :44:46. | |
cutting services back to the bone. With respect, I agree with the broad | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
principle that preventative care is absolutely vital, I disagree with | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
the suggestion that this has been cut to the bone. We had an increase | :44:55. | :45:04. | |
of 5% more and peas Tuohy GPs last parliament. -- and increase of 5% | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
more GPs. Both at the last election and the one before, the party | :45:12. | :45:19. | |
promising the most resources for the NHS was on this side and not on her | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
side. Everyone knows the Secretary of State has an impossible job which | :45:27. | :45:33. | |
he does with humanity and energy, but the two tier system that we had | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
depending on where you live, in the North Lincolnshire you can wait | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
three weeks to see a doctor or two hours for an ambulance to come, on | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
top of lack of investment. Two hours people of weighted lying in the | :45:49. | :45:54. | |
street waiting for an ambulance. This is not acceptable. -- people | :45:55. | :46:03. | |
have waited. I just wonder whether we don't need to start an honest | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
discussion with the people about how we're going to devote more resources | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
to help in this country, perhaps social in Shawlands models or | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
leaving, God forbid, charging people who don't turn up to appointment. -- | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
social in Shawlands models. I don't agree with moving to a social in | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
Shawlands model, but the broader issue is something that I do have | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
some sympathy with. We have to recognise that if we're going to | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
have a million more over 65 is, over the decades ahead we will have to | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
find a way to continue to invest more in our health and social care | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
systems. This year we are doing that women extra 3.8 billion, over the | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
decades ahead governments will continue to need to do. He had led | :46:55. | :47:01. | |
rightly a specific problem, which I don't have the solution to. But I | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
understand the problem that in ball areas the book away too long for | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
ambulances. This system of targets that we have in sensor size | :47:10. | :47:19. | |
Ambulance Services... That is something that I will look at. The | :47:20. | :47:27. | |
Secretary of State houses he has a strategy, so I issue me must be on | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
top of these facts. Can I ask him, as the latest count this week how | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
many beds where being locked in hospitals by people that could be | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
discharged but there went the facilities in the community? More | :47:44. | :47:53. | |
than a third of A attendances at peak times are caused by jewel in | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
this, which is unacceptable and irresponsible, what more can we do | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
the hugely reduced that proportion by this time next year? -- caused by | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
the slump in this. I think the issue he raises is one about public | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
responsibility, these are our National Health Service is and we | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
need to treat them in a responsible way and it is selfish to behave in | :48:21. | :48:26. | |
an irresponsible way and create pressure on an A which means that | :48:27. | :48:29. | |
somebody else who needs the help might not be able to get it. Is the | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
Secretary of State accusing the Red Cross of weapon I think the National | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
Health Service, and secondly can I say when the NHS is making courts | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
the services that supper time and time again are the so-called | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
Cinderella services ie mental health services. The only way to prevent | :48:52. | :49:01. | |
that is to ring fence that funding. Finally, the other thing that | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
happens is when you cut local authority services to the bone is | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
that they can only provide strategy services. What is stopping the | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
Secretary of State commissioning and all parties group to look at the | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
sustainable long-term funding model for social care? The Prime Minister | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
has said that we need to find a long-term solution to the funding of | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
social care and that is work that is ongoing and we recognise the urgency | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
of the situation. But, I would simply say, the evidence about | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
whether or not services for mental health are reaching the front line | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
is whether actually more money is being spent on mental health | :49:46. | :49:48. | |
provision then in previous years and it is about ability of pounds more | :49:49. | :49:57. | |
being spent 20 years ago. Thank you. The AA in me at Worcester and | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
Alexandra Hospital in Redditch have been under huge pressure. -- be a | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
any macro. Can he reassure patients that all is being done to help | :50:09. | :50:13. | |
alleviate the situation now, and also what we really need at odd | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
trust is a capital bid of 29 million to be agreed to increase capacity to | :50:18. | :50:26. | |
alleviate this problem. I totally recognise that and I want to thank | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
her for her interest on behalf of her own constituents in what has | :50:33. | :50:35. | |
been happening. Subject to staffing there will be a new ward opening at | :50:36. | :50:40. | |
the trust next week. We have a new Chief Executive arriving at the | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
trust in the spring. We recognised the need for capital spending to | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
increase capacity of both the Alex and the Royal and we will look | :50:51. | :50:58. | |
sympathetically at that. He couldn't resist his customary political | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
attack on the Wells NHS, I had cause to visit my local hospital to go to | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
a new macro with a family member. And there was a speedy and expect | :51:09. | :51:14. | |
service. -- go to my Amy macro. Can I invite him to congratulate the | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
Welsh Labour government and not having to call in the Red Cross and | :51:21. | :51:27. | |
to congratulate them on their long standing emphasis on mental health | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
meaning we spend more per capita in Wales than in England or indeed any | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
part of the UK notwithstanding the ?2 billion cut he has made to the | :51:37. | :51:38. | |
Welsh budget in the last six years? What he wasn't prepared to say | :51:39. | :51:49. | |
people wait twice as long very hip replacement in Wales, more than | :51:50. | :51:50. | |
double the proportion of the double the proportion of the | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
population are on a waiting list for NHS care, that's one in seven people | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
in Wales compared to one in one in 15 in England and you are 40 times | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
more likely to be waiting for a diagnostic test result waiting too | :52:04. | :52:05. | |
long for a test result in Wales compared to England. Thank you, Mr | :52:06. | :52:12. | |
Speaker. The Secretary of State will be aware that our hospitals have | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
been under pressure due to be demographics and ageing population. | :52:19. | :52:20. | |
Will he agree that it's encouraging Will he agree that it's encouraging | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
to hear work being done on Friday to make sure doctors can be available | :52:27. | :52:30. | |
to those who need them and that people are sent away to specialists | :52:31. | :52:33. | |
who can help them like a physiotherapist rather than taking | :52:34. | :52:39. | |
up vital GP appointments? Indeed. I congratulate all the NHS and social | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
care staff in Derby doing a fantastic job. Also on the | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
pioneering work we have done, which I know has made a huge difference to | :52:48. | :52:54. | |
his constituents. Over the New Year, East Midlands Ambulance Service saw | :52:55. | :52:56. | |
life-threatening calls up 42% on life-threatening calls up 42% on | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
last year. Beauty of Nottingham last year. Beauty of Nottingham | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
University Hospital trust described the emergency department as pushed | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
to the limit. The honourable member has already said almost double the | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
normal number of hospital admissions. Clearly these were | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
necessary attendances but surely many of them could have been | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
prevented. He has already acknowledged the connection between | :53:21. | :53:21. | |
inadequate social care and this is inadequate social care and this is | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
entirely foreseeable prices. I ask again, will he commit his Government | :53:27. | :53:33. | |
to properly fund it? I just find these questions about funding | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
curious coming from a party that had we followed their plans would be | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
spending ?1.3 billion less on the NHS this year compared to what the | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
NHS is actually getting. I just say to them the reason that we are able | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
to spend that extra money on the NHS is because we know how to run the | :53:54. | :54:02. | |
economy. It's all too often been the case that mental health patients | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
have wondered if this issue actually has another leadership. I'm pleased | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
to see the Prime Minister made one of her earlier speeches on this | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
particular issue. While no one in this house would oppose an extra 1.4 | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
billion being invested, this Parliament echoes the words of the | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
chief executive, the proof will be chief executive, the proof will be | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
in the investment -- the impact this investment has an day-to-day | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
experiences. While the minister meet with me to discuss the plans for a | :54:32. | :54:35. | |
new psychiatric and demented unit in Bath in order to service the whole | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
of the south-west? I am happy on his behalf to ask the Minister to meet | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
him to discuss that psychiatric unit. -- dementia. The proof of the | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
pudding is in the eating. This is the first time I can remember that a | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
Prime Minister has made her first major speech on the NHS about mental | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
health and talked about the importance of sorting out mental | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
health on the steps of Downing Street as she arrived. That is a | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
sign of the commitment coming right from the job. The fabulous team at | :55:08. | :55:15. | |
Imperial St Mary 's in west London are featuring any TV programme this | :55:16. | :55:20. | |
week. The cheese service for emergency care is reported as | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
saying, we have just had our worst ten days on record, there is nowhere | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
in the hospital to move anybody. What happened in the two years, the | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
whole system country wind has grown to a halt. Part of that is because | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
there is more than the goblet of a ward of patients at any time you | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
cannot move out of the hospital because there is nowhere for them to | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
go. Does the Secretary of State except his Government has gone too | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
far in the destruction of local Government finance, including social | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
care, and does he accept that despite all the rhetoric, next year | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
and local Government finance will go down not up? First of all, I would | :55:56. | :56:04. | |
like to thank the staff at Imperial alongside other NHS staff and | :56:05. | :56:05. | |
utterly fantastic job over a utterly fantastic job over a | :56:06. | :56:07. | |
difficult period. 50% of councils difficult period. 50% of councils | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
have got no delayed discharges of care. Whilst this is a problem in | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
many hospitals, there are many areas managing to deal with this problem. | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
That's why I would suggest the local authorities that serve her | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
constituencies should look at other parts of that are dealing with this | :56:24. | :56:31. | |
problem. I welcome the provision of mental health facilities services | :56:32. | :56:39. | |
for schools, but will it use either the type of first aid he is | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
proposing for this is available to MPs and their staff? Given the | :56:45. | :56:46. | |
number of people with mental health problems that we deal with. Is an | :56:47. | :56:55. | |
absolutely excellent suggestion. I'm very happy to take it up. The | :56:56. | :57:03. | |
problems we've been hearing in A E throughout the afternoon are | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
symptomatic of problems elsewhere in the system. If you take Aintree | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
Hospital, where the staff are doing a fantastic job in very difficult | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
circumstances, a patients as of today are medically fit for | :57:18. | :57:22. | |
discharge. Social services are simply unable to support them to go | :57:23. | :57:27. | |
home or to go into care elsewhere. He needs to accept the cuts of ?4.6 | :57:28. | :57:35. | |
billion to social services was a mistake. He needs to accept the | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
better care fund is simply not delivering, it is money | :57:41. | :57:41. | |
recycled from elsewhere in the recycled from elsewhere in the | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
system and if you look at the figures in Sefton, Sefton were | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
promised 9 million, they have had less than 1 million. If he is | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
serious about sorting out the problems in social care over the | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
long term, he needs to get the funding right and he needs to | :57:57. | :58:01. | |
reinvest all of those cuts that have been made. I do except there needs | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
to be more funding going into social care, that's why we're putting an | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
extra ?3.5 billion into social care around by the end of Parliament. | :58:11. | :58:16. | |
What I would say to him is that even despite the very real pleasures in | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
social care, there are many local authority areas, many hospitals that | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
have no delayed discharges of care at all. Half of all the delayed | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
discharges are just 20 local authorities. As we wait for that | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
funding to come on stream, it's not all coming on stream at the start of | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
Parliament, there's lots that can be done. Can I thank the Secretary of | :58:36. | :58:42. | |
State for paying tribute to front line staff, I declare an interest to | :58:43. | :58:47. | |
someone who worked over the NHS over the Christmas period and saw | :58:48. | :58:51. | |
first-hand the pressures front line staff are facing. These winter | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
pressures are replaced every year, certainly in my 20 expenses of | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
working as a nurse. -- 20 years. Would he also paid tribute to mental | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
health care nurses in Sussex and Sussex Police? Who by their joint | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
working have reduced the amount of patients who have been placed in a | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
prison cell, as the place of safety by 50% and Digne County Beachy head, | :59:14. | :59:22. | |
that is a huge achievement. First of all, I welcome your contribution to | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
this House as a practising night. I am more than happy to pay tribute to | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
our brilliant mental health and those who I think have one of the | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
most stressful jobs you can have. Particularly those in Sussex with | :59:37. | :59:43. | |
particular tragic suicide hotspots. With the cold weather coming, could | :59:44. | :59:48. | |
I return to the point of the flu epidemic risk and see that a | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
desperate doctor wrote to me last night to say, sooner or later there | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
will be an epidemic and, lately tell you, we cannot cope. Another shift, | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
and other full hospital, and other gridlocked ana, more desperate and | :00:02. | :00:09. | |
desperate patients. Another 14 or 13 hour shift with 110 minute break. | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
Some patients and relatives get angry, some despair, most watchers | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
and realise we can't physically do anything more. Please help me as the | :00:19. | :00:20. | |
MPT represent her and please help us MPT represent her and please help us | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
to have more staff. -- MPs. That Doctor speaks for many doctors who | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
are working incredibly hard, particularly in our emergency | :00:34. | :00:35. | |
department. I would say to that department. I would say to that | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
doctor that we recognise the need for more doctors, we are recruiting | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
more doctors, not just across the NHS but in emergency departments in | :00:43. | :00:46. | |
particular. We also recognise that we need to find a different way of | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
dealing with some of the patients who come to the hospital front door | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
so we can alleviate that pressure and that's what we are looking at. I | :00:55. | :01:03. | |
my constituency, an award winning my constituency, an award winning | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
charity which improves the well-being of those suffering from | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
mental health conditions. I welcome the Prime Minister's and enter this | :01:12. | :01:13. | |
morning raising awareness of that ongoing stigma with regards to | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
mental health. As well of course is the ?1 billion investment and the | :01:18. | :01:20. | |
commitment to improving services. Would the minister be prepared to | :01:21. | :01:26. | |
investigate such schemes as the one I have mentioned to ensure the | :01:27. | :01:28. | |
treatment of those suffering from mental health is not simply limited | :01:29. | :01:34. | |
to the provision of medication? I am prepared to do that. I think we do | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
need to be very open-minded about the fact that mental health in some | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
ways is a relatively new field, research as to what works best is | :01:45. | :01:47. | |
continuing to uncover many new things. Much of that research is | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
happening in this country. There has been a big move away from thinking | :01:52. | :01:54. | |
that medication is with the best way forward. We have seen a huge | :01:55. | :01:59. | |
expansion in therapies over the last two years in this country and that | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
trend will continue. Thank you. Despite the best efforts of | :02:06. | :02:08. | |
dedicated NHS staff, patients attending one of my local A E were | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
told they would have to wait 11 hours just to be seen. People were | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
in hospital trolleys for almost 20 hours routinely. Mental health | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
patients were sent to Colchester because that was the nearest | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
inpatient bed available for a 17-year-old and somebody I know | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
waited six hours for a 999 ambulance, despite calling nine NN | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
three times. We can do better than this, Secretary of State. To that | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
end, I implore you, plead with you, to intervene and suspend the | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
needless downgrade of Dewsbury and Huddersfield hospital, the downgrade | :02:46. | :02:51. | |
of which will cost lives. None of the examples of poor care that she | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
talks about remotely acceptable. Let me say to her that on my watch and I | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
this Government we will see no return to the bad old days where | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
people were routinely waiting far too long. We are recognising the | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
problems we've just had and we are absolutely determined to make sure | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
we suck them out. With respect to her local hospital reconfiguration, | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
if it ends up on my desk because preferred that by the local health | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
scrutiny committee and I then referred to the Independent | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
reconfiguration panel, I will then look at the matter very carefully. | :03:26. | :03:31. | |
-- sort it out. Mr Speaker, I would like to welcome the Secretary of | :03:32. | :03:36. | |
State statement today and the focus on mental health. In particular, the | :03:37. | :03:42. | |
mention of the suicide prevention strategy and the 1 billion funding | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
commitment to improving services. Mental health is something that | :03:47. | :03:48. | |
often doesn't just affect the patient but the families and those | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
closest and dearest to them who care for them. Does he agree that raising | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
awareness and tackling the ongoing stigma of mental health is a vital | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
part of our work on mental health? Yes. She is absolutely right to | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
mention that. I would say this is an area we can approach with some | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
optimism as to the potential for change. If she looks at the progress | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
we've made in the last four years on dementia, there is a day that goes | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
past without something being in the newspapers about dementia and the | :04:21. | :04:24. | |
understanding of dementia has changed dramatically. I think we can | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
change attitudes and we absolutely need to do that. The only way you | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
can get help to people any mental health crisis is if they talk about | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
to change. I entirely agree with the to change. I entirely agree with the | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
comments being made about the pressures on GP services, the | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
pressures on preventative health and social care, but I want to ask about | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
mental health services for students. In the first few weeks of time this | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
year at Bristol University, there were three suspected suicides and I | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
know from speaking to a doctor who runs the student health services bet | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
presented with the mental health presented with the mental health | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
issues has grown a lot over recent years. What can be Secretary of | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
State tell us to reassure us that students leaving home for the first | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
time and going to university that there are going to be in safe hands? | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
I had a very interesting afternoon visiting the suicide prevention unit | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
at Bristol Royal Infirmary and had a very good discussion about what they | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
do. They do some pioneering things there. I learned a great deal from | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
it. We have a particular concern about the growth in mental | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
ill-health amongst women aged 18 to 24, it has shown is that the good | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
growth. We are very concerned about today, the Prime Minister announced, | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
but we have updated the suicide prevention strategy to make sure | :05:51. | :05:53. | |
that all part of the country can learn from best practice, including | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
places like best. Garryowen thank you Mr Speaker. I welcome to date's | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
an expert on mental health. The key challenge often is to identify those | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
who need help and support. Will the Secretary of State agreed to meet | :06:15. | :06:16. | |
with the Department for Work and Pensions to look at ways that we can | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
help signpost those identified through the independent payment is | :06:21. | :06:23. | |
processed to signpost them to the additional support of help | :06:24. | :06:24. | |
available? Can I reassure my honourable friend | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
that those meetings are already happening? We have a paper in. We | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
are trying to speed up access to mental health services for people on | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
benefit to the canal to be more independent every address their | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
mental health issue more quickly. Thank you. I'd just like to pick up | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
on a point that the Secretary of State made about the right sort of | :06:52. | :06:58. | |
pension arriving at a and E. -- A An elderly constituent of mine, Pat, | :06:59. | :07:01. | |
had pneumonia like symptoms but didn't want to get and a dumb act to | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
A to put pressure on, said she rang up the helpline and was told | :07:10. | :07:12. | |
there was 100 people in front of her. She went to A because she | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
thought she was going to die and she waited 24 hours for a bed. This is | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
unacceptable, as you know. With the Secretary of State agree that the | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
that there is urgent and immediate demand for out of hours doctors. If | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
so, what will you do about it? She is right. People like her | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
constituent, we need to have better alternatives to A and sometimes | :07:38. | :07:40. | |
they don't exist, but one of the things they need to do is to make | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
sure that people call 111 who need to speak to a clinician can do so | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
quickly. One of the things they are piloted very successfully in other | :07:52. | :07:54. | |
parts of the country is better than supervision of people in care homes, | :07:55. | :07:57. | |
who are sometimes the most vulnerable patients. This is one of | :07:58. | :08:03. | |
the things you're looking at, but also direction of travel. We need to | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
find better ways fall for her constituent and people like them. | :08:07. | :08:13. | |
Thank you. In sparsely populated rural Lincolnshire, vital reforms to | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
health and social care risk of being undermined by the performance of the | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
Midlands Ambulance Service. We have a Police and Crime Commissioner who | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
said his officers are routinely effectively acting as ambulance | :08:27. | :08:29. | |
drivers. I narrowly understand the problems we face in rural | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
Lincolnshire but can you agree with me that, as it is currently | :08:36. | :08:37. | |
constituted, East Midlands Ambulance Service is not selling the rural of | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
an area as well as its staff was due and as well as my constituents need | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
to? -- wanted to. As discussed earlier, when the honourable | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
gentleman from Gainsborough spoke, I think there are areas where the | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
service that the Ambulance Service providers to rural areas is not as | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
good as it could be because of reverse incentives around the way | :09:03. | :09:05. | |
the target work. I have been nervous about changing the targets because I | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
think then that can sometimes be taken as a signal to relax, when I'm | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
absolutely determined that we should meet the current targets but I did | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
make a commitment to you honourable gentleman of Gainsborough that I | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
will look into this is and I will do so. Thank you. Alas yeah, in | :09:23. | :09:31. | |
Sheffield, just 67% of category one red ambulance calls were answered | :09:32. | :09:34. | |
within eight minutes. At each, I met a constituent whose husband died | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
while he waited two hours for an ambulance. -- two hours and 40 | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
minutes. How can you stand on the dispatch box and say the | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
underfunding of our NHS is not linked with these irresponsible | :09:49. | :09:56. | |
response times? Of course, what happened in vegetation is totally | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
unacceptable, but -- in that situation. It is a mistake to bring | :10:02. | :10:08. | |
this back to finding, it is by pressures, models of care. In the | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
case of the Ambulance Services, just to reassure her that the extra | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
funding that has gone in, we have around 200 more ambulances, around | :10:19. | :10:20. | |
200 more paramedics and the annual and services are doing every day at | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
around 3400 blue light called more than it was doing six years ago. | :10:27. | :10:31. | |
There has been a significant investment but more has to happen. | :10:32. | :10:42. | |
-- calls. Thank you. The number of mental health patients in police | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
cells is rightfully down by 80%. People have bravely come to my | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
surgery, in my constituency, talking about issues where they have found | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
themselves with their families, struggling with provisions for | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
mental health in between 18-24 years old and I pay tribute to Mind and | :11:00. | :11:10. | |
Southern health for the issues they have helped. One thing is the tier | :11:11. | :11:16. | |
system of not being sick and off shore where they are going. Kenny | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
Secretary of State please tell me he will focus on special dumb | :11:22. | :11:25. | |
specialism in this area because it is about finding the people to help | :11:26. | :11:34. | |
people in need. -- specialism. She is right on by the Council on | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
everything they need to do is look carefully at where the tier system | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
is not working as part of our work for the Green paper that the Prime | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
Minister and this morning because it is not acceptable for people to be | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
done and they are not second half to get the care that they urgently | :11:49. | :11:56. | |
need. -- not sick enough. All the we have announced an intention to | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
announce well fail if we don't get the recruitment and training of new | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
staff correct. With the commitment we are making Jadeja invest more in | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
mental health, there also has to come more strategic planning. -- | :12:10. | :12:22. | |
making to invest more. On a temporary basis, money is being | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
given to distressed trusts but isn't there a more fundamental ticking | :12:27. | :12:29. | |
time bomb, which is the sustainability and translation plans | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
-- transformation plans, and can I draw him to something I said in | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
December about the north east London plan, which envisions a deficit of | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
?578 million by 2021 and which says that, on a normal business as usual | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
case of normal type productions and savings, there will still be a ?240 | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
million gap. That means poorer services. There is no capital | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
provision for the closure of the King George Hospital A and its | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
repositioning at Queens Hospital. Can you would urgently because there | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
is going to be a massive crisis in my area unless urgent steps are | :13:13. | :13:18. | |
taken to get more resources? Well, I am happy to do that issue and, can I | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
take this opportunity to pay tribute to the staff of both Queens and King | :13:24. | :13:29. | |
George? Who have not only done very well over winter, but have also made | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
progress, great progress in terms of joining that around from special | :13:36. | :13:39. | |
measures. We are hopeful that it might come out of special measures | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
now at some stage during this year, but that they decision for the QC. | :13:45. | :13:53. | |
-- CQC. Kettering General Hospital which serves my constituency has a | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
big problem with delayed discharge. Whatever the issue is about money, | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
perhaps the problem with social care is the model. Would it not be a good | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
idea, Secretary of State, if there was genuine commitment from the | :14:09. | :14:11. | |
other side of the house to try and work together to find the social | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
care system for the future? -- a social care system. I think he is a | :14:17. | :14:23. | |
right to say that we need to have these discussions in a less | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
politically charged away because we need to find a solution that will | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
survive changes environment and will be fit for the long-term. What I | :14:34. | :14:40. | |
would also say to him is that I think we missed a trick when they | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
say this is primarily about finding, the cause we have huge variation in | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
provision. There are many local authorities where there are no delay | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
discharges of care, as discussed earlier. What doesn't happen enough | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
in the NHS and social care system is people living from best practice in | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
other parts of the country and that is what we need to change. The | :15:01. | :15:05. | |
Secretary of State has spoken a lot and today about unnecessary | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
admissions to A Can you tell on Deeside, as a result of chronic | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
malnutrition, have travelled under the Conservative governments and | :15:15. | :15:21. | |
whether that approach will change to tackling poverty in this country. -- | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
Teesside. What I would say to her is the way you deal with those terrible | :15:26. | :15:30. | |
problems is by having a stronger economy that allows asked to support | :15:31. | :15:33. | |
people through difficult period in their life and what we have is one | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
of the strongest economies, and I think this year it'll be the | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
strongest economy in the G7 which allows us to do things like invest | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
in our health and social care system and it is this party that can | :15:46. | :15:51. | |
deliver that. Thank you. I've spoken to before about the staggering rise | :15:52. | :15:58. | |
of patients at A in Addenbrooke's in Cambridge and the Hospital can | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
bring to me this morning that they see 300 people a day. High levels of | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
the late answers of care. The impact of this was brought to me by a | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
constituent who told me that on Thursday last week, the facilities | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
are so overcrowded that an adjacent seminar room was pressed into use | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
weblogs were taken and where she was treated behind a makeshift curtain | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
reclining on a standard chair. All conditions to be treated in of all | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
conditions of which to work. The Secretary of State may say it's not | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
about funding, if it is not, wealthy country Cambridge, sit down with his | :16:32. | :16:34. | |
Conservative colleagues on the county council and tell them where | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
they are going wrong? First of all, I went to Addenbrooke's in the | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
autumn and I saw first-hand just how hard the gap are working there. | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
That's another trust that is on special measures that has made huge | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
progress in trying to turn things around. I met a number any emergency | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
department as well and I beg of you any emergency department as well and | :16:55. | :16:57. | |
I couldn't do them for their very hard work. I've never said it's not | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
about funding. What I say is that it's not just about funding. There | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
is huge variation and what we see is part of the country where they | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
avoid, in their and agency departments, precisely the type of | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
overcrowding he spoke about Addenbrooke's. Hospitals that do so | :17:12. | :17:19. | |
very successfully, like Luton and Dunstable, for example. We need | :17:20. | :17:21. | |
hospitals to adopt the best practice. Thank you. Can I welcome | :17:22. | :17:29. | |
the public vocation of the new suicide prevention strategy and that | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
self harm is included in it. Thank you for the work on suicide | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
prevention, which I chair. Can I as the Secretary of State to meet with | :17:44. | :17:47. | |
Robert Colgate? Robert Colgate has set out a triage in mental health | :17:48. | :17:54. | |
systems. That means people don't have too wait 6-9 months to see a | :17:55. | :17:57. | |
consultant. With the support of front line staffing, they get an | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
immediate triage assessment and assistance to help. Can I urgently | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
asking to meet with Doctor Colgate? His work is being peer-reviewed by | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
Manchester University, and have a look at how this can also... It is | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
being rolled out across England, but Cialis can help us tackle the | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
problems we have. I thank her for her work on the suicide prevention | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
agency but I am more than happy to meet Doctor Colgate and the purpose | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
of the refreshed suicide prevention strategy is to make sure that we | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
adopt best practice throughout the country. There are some areas of the | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
country doing a very, very good job in suicide prevention. Particularly | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
in telling the public they can make a difference to this, too. I am more | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
than happy to explore what more can be done. Thank you. The Secretary of | :18:48. | :18:57. | |
State rightly pays tribute to NHS staff, but the reality is that many | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
of our NHS workers are now at breaking point. They only continue | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
to perform their work with care and compassion in the light of, rather | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
than because of, any action taken by the Health Secretary. It is now time | :19:09. | :19:15. | |
for the secretary of state to act. What can literally get to invest | :19:16. | :19:17. | |
properly in our NHS staff and reverse the process of geese | :19:18. | :19:23. | |
killing, demoralisation and downgrading of our NHS staff, which | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
he has provided over since 2010. -- de-skilling. With respect to the | :19:29. | :19:35. | |
honourable lady, who lie no cares passionately about the NHS, and | :19:36. | :19:41. | |
often asks the question about it. We have now 11,400 more doctors in the | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
NHS than 2010 and 11,200 more nurses. We protected the NHS budget | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
in 2010 when her party wanted to cut it. We promised ?5.5 billion more | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
than her party web adverts to promise for the NHS at the last | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
election. I think the characterisation she gives this | :20:05. | :20:06. | |
Government as not being prepared to back NHS staff is absurd. -- were | :20:07. | :20:14. | |
prepared to promise. Thank you. The primer Minister's focus on mental | :20:15. | :20:22. | |
health today is very welcome, but does he accept that we will only | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
achieve power of esteem when they except how far we are from at | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
present? This is not a recent problem. The lack of recognition for | :20:31. | :20:32. | |
mental health date back to the inception of the National Health | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
Service as it is driven by our culture and choices as a country, | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
rather than any particular Government. Darcy except that, even | :20:41. | :20:47. | |
the measures laid out today, which each of themselves are welcome, will | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
only really provide a fitting that the onto the problem and that, as it | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
stands, we will be looking at progress of waging in decades before | :21:00. | :21:04. | |
we achieve clarity of mental health conditions? Plaster. I thank him for | :21:05. | :21:11. | |
his interest in the issue and there is a challenge because, when we | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
legislate for clarity of cross-party support in 2012, there is a danger | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
that a concept like that can be nebulous and that is why we asked | :21:21. | :21:29. | |
Paul Farmer, who is the chief executive of Mind, to independently | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
look at what they fear, reasonable progress by 2020 and he came back | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
and he said he thought it would be a ten year process to get there. But | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
this was the right ambition for 2020, and it was his report that the | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
prime ministers except that this morning. We are making progress | :21:46. | :21:49. | |
against benchmarks that independent people have looked at, but it is | :21:50. | :21:52. | |
right to say that we will not get there by 2020 one and he must make | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
sure they do deliver on that commitment wildly as I are both MPs. | :21:56. | :22:02. | |
Very seriously mentally ill people rely on support from a range of | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
services, mental health services but also housing, social services, | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
sometimes the criminal justice system and family support services. | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
Can I ask the Secretary of State what is being done to ensure a whole | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
Government strategy to raise the standard of care, particularly for a | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
very severely ill people who need protection from harm both to | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
themselves and sometimes sadly to others in society? She is right. I | :22:32. | :22:37. | |
will give her one example which is particularly true and that is an | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
addiction services. Highly vulnerable people we are trying to | :22:42. | :22:46. | |
help get off a drugs habit, also have a housing problem a debt | :22:47. | :22:50. | |
problem, they may have a work problems. As you solve those | :22:51. | :22:54. | |
problems holistically you are unlikely to be able to address the | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
health problem that sits at the heart of those challenges. That is, | :22:58. | :23:05. | |
trying to address, more joined up trying to address, more joined up | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
integrated services but I am happy to have further discussions with her | :23:09. | :23:15. | |
as to how we can make more progress. The Secretary of State in his | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
statement has promised a Green paper on children and young people's | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
year. That could be 11 and a half year. That could be 11 and a half | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
months away. One in four people have a mental health disorder and the | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
Government's own research says young people are disproportionately | :23:34. | :23:35. | |
affected. We have heard stories including in my constituency of | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
young people waiting over a year for support, including those victims of | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
domestic violence, schools and parents are picking up the pieces. | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
Young people deserve better. Well he clarify the reasons for what appears | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
to be quite a long delay? Will he commit to bringing forward the Green | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
paper earlier so that action can be taken more quickly and that this | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
pressing issue is not kicked into long grass? Can I reassure her that | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
we wouldn't be taking the issue into the long grass if we have a Prime | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
Minister making a statement that we are going to have a green paper. | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
There is a specific reason why we need a bit of time, which is because | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
we want to make sure the changes that we make... We are getting a | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
little bit of chuntering on the front bench. Don't they want to | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
listen to the answer? The reason why we need to take some time is because | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
we have a number of pilots happening in schools at the moment concerning | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
improving mental health provision for people at the schools and we | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
want to see those pilots through and evaluate them and allowed that to | :24:37. | :24:39. | |
inform what we do in the Green inform what we do in the Green | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
paper. That will take a little bit of time. What we will get at the end | :24:44. | :24:47. | |
of it is the best evidence as to the right way forward. Mr Speaker, young | :24:48. | :24:55. | |
people in Sheffield have for some time now been telling me that the | :24:56. | :25:01. | |
awaiting 25 weeks for an appointment after a referral. Headteachers are | :25:02. | :25:09. | |
telling me the aye digging into their badges to buy in support for | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
pupils in crisis because they cannot access NHS services. Isn't it deeply | :25:16. | :25:21. | |
-- deeply cynical for the Prime Minister be raising hopes of | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
tackling the mental health crisis for our young people when the | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
measures he has announced fall desperately short and the money | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
falls short of what we need? It would be cynical if you raised hopes | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
and had no intention of doing anything about it. But what she has | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
said this morning in his speech was that this is the start of a process. | :25:43. | :25:44. | |
She pointed to those problems and She pointed to those problems and | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
she said we're going to have a green paper to look at how we deal with | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
those problems in detail. That does take some time. We will get to | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
position I hope one we can with those problems. In Sheffield, he is | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
lucky to have that Professor working in Sheffield who is the NHS lead | :26:03. | :26:07. | |
mental health psychiatrist and a specialist in homelessness and he | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
was very much helping us to shape the strategy. I am grateful to the | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
Secretary of State and colleagues across the House. Have you been | :26:15. | :26:25. | |
informed of any intentions Secretary of State of Northern Ireland to make | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
a statement to the for the wreckage -- resignation of the Deputy Prime | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
Minister? The short and to the honourable gentleman is that I have | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
not received any indication -- answer of an impending statement by | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland on the matter to which the | :26:46. | :26:51. | |
honourable gentleman refers. I appreciate it will of course be of | :26:52. | :26:56. | |
great interest to many members of the house and the fairest thing I | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
can say is that we must await the development of events. I am | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
conscious that there is a Wes Minster whole debate tomorrow | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
afternoon -- Westminster. The possibility of an oral statement by | :27:14. | :27:22. | |
the Government must clearly exist. And on the same matter, I think,... | :27:23. | :27:32. | |
My right honourable friend, over the last of weeks in Northern Ireland, | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
we have witnessed continuing political instability that was | :27:37. | :27:42. | |
immense proportions in relation to immense proportions in relation to | :27:43. | :27:45. | |
the renewable heat initiative and the renewable heat initiative and | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
the continuing failure of the First Minister to step aside while such an | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
investigation which my party had called for took place. As a | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
consequence, we see the Deputy First Minister resigned today, which means | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
the house of cards falls. As a consequence of that, Mr Speaker, | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
what other avenues are available to honourable members in this House to | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
discuss this particular political instability and this difficulty, | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
further assembly elections or new further assembly elections or new | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
extremely sensitive situation and I extremely sensitive situation and I | :28:25. | :28:29. | |
don't want to see anything. That adds to that sensitivity. The | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
honourable lady enquired as to what honourable lady enquired as to what | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
other avenues are open to ensure a discussion of this matter. In the | :28:38. | :28:41. | |
using the word other, I assume she is referring to other avenues beyond | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
the possibility of a Government statement, which of course it would | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
be for the Government to decide whether to make. The honourable lady | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
is well familiar with the mechanisms available for scrutiny of the | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
the fairest thing I can say is that the fairest thing I can say is that | :28:57. | :29:04. | |
I would be extremely surprised if this matter were not fully aired in | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
the next few days in this chamber. As a speaker, I would want to | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
facilitate the House if that is what is desired. My sense is that it will | :29:18. | :29:23. | |
be. Desired. And that it will happen. On a separate matter, a | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
point of order. Mr Speaker, many will be alarmed by the recent | :29:30. | :29:35. | |
reports of attempts by foreign Government to take down members of | :29:36. | :29:40. | |
this House, including a senior minister. Given the very serious | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
implications of this, what measures will you take to investigate this, | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
not least as one party to the discussions, according to the press | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
conference, was or is at least partially a paid employee of this | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
House? The honourable gentleman, I thank you for your point of order | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
and indeed for notice of it. At this stage, in direct response to the | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
enquiry by the Right honourable gentleman, I am not aware of | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
anything which has happened is that is a matter for the chair. If it | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
transpires that something has happened which is a matter for the | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
chair, I will of course consider what action to take. The matter | :30:23. | :30:30. | |
concerned is of course serious. I do not dispute that for one moment. It | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
is, however, important to be accurate in the use of terms and | :30:35. | :30:41. | |
language. To the best of my knowledge and belief, and I don't | :30:42. | :30:46. | |
doubt the good intentions of the right honourable gentleman, the | :30:47. | :30:50. | |
individual to whom he has indirectly referred has not been an employee of | :30:51. | :30:55. | |
this hack House. The individual concerned was an employee of a | :30:56. | :31:01. | |
number of institutions and people. My understanding is that she has | :31:02. | :31:09. | |
resigned from one, I think, full-time post and from another | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
part-time post. The part-time post which has caused her to work | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
administratively with a member of the House, that part-time post has | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
ended and the path that was available to the individual is being | :31:24. | :31:32. | |
returned. I think that's a pretty full answer to the right honourable | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
gentleman, which is intended to be, and I hope it is helpful. I don't | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
think it will be helpful further to dwell upon the matter now. If there | :31:40. | :31:47. | |
thank the right honourable gentleman thank the right honourable gentleman | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
for raising the matter which is oppositely of concern to him, I | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
don't want to invite trouble. The right honourable gentleman is a very | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
senior member of the House and I knew he wouldn't take liberties. He | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
is looking in a state of great perturbation. If he wants to be the | :32:06. | :32:09. | |
point of order, I would stop him. He doesn't. What a remarkable display | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
of self restraint by the right honourable gentleman. It might catch | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
on, you never know. I think colleagues would probably say to me, | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
good luck with that one. If there are no further points of order, we | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
come late to the main business. We can now proceed to be the orders of | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
the day. Technical and Further Education Bill, as amended in the | :32:33. | :32:34. | |
public bill committee to be considered. Thank you. We begin with | :32:35. | :32:42. | |
new clause one Wes Witcher will be convenient to consider the other new | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
clauses on the paper. To move, I call the Shadow minister responsible | :32:49. | :32:55. | |
for these important matters. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker and | :32:56. | :33:02. | |
can I on behalf of everybody in the chamber wish you and all your | :33:03. | :33:07. | |
officials and the Deputy speakers and the person taking your place as | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
I speak a very happy New Year and the same to members of this House. | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
The issue before us this evening which we will be pursuing is whether | :33:17. | :33:25. | |
it will be a happy New Year for apprentices and for the new | :33:26. | :33:28. | |
Institute for apprenticeship and technical education. Madam Deputy | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
Speaker, the Government will no we have been broadly supportive, | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
broadly supportive of the process that they are bringing forward, | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
albeit it was somewhat forced upon them when their original mechanism, | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
which was to get many of these things through the academy 's bill, | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
hit a shipwreck because the Academy 's bill marked -- was not too | :33:55. | :34:04. | |
popular with. We got fairly rapid notice. That said, we had a good | :34:05. | :34:12. | |
committee stage and I want to pay tribute to the Minister for his | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
reconstructive way in which he reconstructive way in which he | :34:19. | :34:21. | |
responded to rest in committing. There is an old saying that fine | :34:22. | :34:27. | |
words but no parsnips but I hooked words but no parsnips but I hooked | :34:28. | :34:32. | |
by the end of the season -- this evening, I hope we have a view | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
parsnips. A film you'll possibly for those of the vegetarian instinct. | :34:37. | :34:46. | |
During the committee stage he and others moved in number of amendments | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
which don't appear to have been taken on by the Government. We had | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
hoped the Government would bring forward some of those amendments in | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
their own form. I'm always slightly disappointed when intimations of | :35:03. | :35:11. | |
progress at committee stage I not then met with specifics. The | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
Government has the opportunity this evening on commenting on our | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
amendments to do something about it. Indeed, to accept in principle some | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
of our amendments. If they think they are defective but the basic | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
principle of them is fine then they should take them on board. I want to | :35:30. | :35:35. | |
move may to this amendment we have move may to this amendment we have | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
put down and to start actually with one amendment with one new clause, | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
new clause one, which we moved at committee stage and which I think | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
remains valid. That is that this House should actually have an annual | :35:54. | :35:59. | |
report on the quality outcomes of completed apprenticeships. We've had | :36:00. | :36:01. | |
many discussions and argument in this place about the issue of | :36:02. | :36:09. | |
apprenticeships. Much emphasis has been put on apprenticeship starts | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
but far less emphasis, I don't make a party political point here, | :36:13. | :36:15. | |
generally speaking, far emphasis on generally speaking, far emphasis on | :36:16. | :36:21. | |
the process of completion. Those familiar with the famous saying it | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
is not the beginning of a thing with the continuing of it until it is | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
fully finished which holds the full glory will know therefore why we | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
think it is really important to pit and this is not simply an input, not | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
even an outfit but also an outcome. In broad terms, we have supported | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
the major expansion of apprenticeship starts although the | :36:47. | :36:48. | |
Government remains responsible for the target of 3 million starts by | :36:49. | :36:54. | |
2020 whipped on previous occasions have come about by a rather curious | :36:55. | :36:58. | |
set of circumstances. The Minister has rightly said previously that | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
bridging the growing skills gap. The bridging the growing skills gap. The | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
potential expansion might feel some of the courts needed to fill the | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
gaps. This new clause is timely, given the sort of things, an | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
exhaustive list, we believe would demonstrate those outcomes. Despite | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
some progress in recent years, the some progress in recent years, the | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
situation of young people not in employment, education and training | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
remains fragile. The most recent official figures do show an increase | :37:28. | :37:33. | |
in the low of 16 to 24-year-olds classified as economically inactive. | :37:34. | :37:42. | |
As I have said grievously, they continue to the sector skills | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
people, universities, have questioned marks about the quality | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
of what those 3 million a year apprenticeships will be. Young | :37:53. | :37:53. | |
people are concerned about them and people are concerned about them and | :37:54. | :37:54. | |
concerned they should be of quality. The level of satisfaction has been | :37:55. | :38:05. | |
high and showed no change from previous years but it is extremely | :38:06. | :38:08. | |
important that we monitor satisfaction rates. In that process, | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
we have to be watchful of the fragility of apprenticeships and | :38:13. | :38:18. | |
those have fallen. -- apprenticeship success rates. They have fallen to | :38:19. | :38:27. | |
71.7% in 2015. It is important to look at the evaluation budget in | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
2015 in this area. It is a modest fall in the proportion of how | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
apprenticeships make up formal training to 79%. But it is a warning | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
sign for the Government and that is why we believe that, now we've got | :38:42. | :38:47. | |
those new standards for technical education, it is vital to track the | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
outcomes for each group. Last year's apprenticeship evaluation showed a | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
slight increase in the proportion of people completing apprenticeships | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
but we need to also add particular areas where there have been higher | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
levels of unemployment among completed apprenticeships. That | :39:05. | :39:11. | |
includes eye CG, it includes arts and media, which had 11% | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
unemployment. -- ICT. Those have to be looked at as the be getting | :39:19. | :39:20. | |
positive response from the Government. I moved onto new clause | :39:21. | :39:27. | |
two. This amendment has two separate issues. The first is to build on the | :39:28. | :39:31. | |
Minister's ashore during the committee stage. That apprenticeship | :39:32. | :39:38. | |
panel would be set up to reports directly to the board and to ensure | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
that a similarity and takes place when the Institute absolves | :39:43. | :39:52. | |
technical education into its remit in 2018. -- absorbs. I had to say | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
how happy I've been following the belatedly to the conservation | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
document for guidance, which we were originally promised in the evidence | :40:01. | :40:07. | |
session by the Delano, the shadow chief executive, would there before | :40:08. | :40:15. | |
Christmas. -- Peter Lautner. The minister like to tell us at some | :40:16. | :40:18. | |
point why they didn't emerge before Christmas. He did say, and I thank | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
him for this, that I think we can square the circle by agreeing that | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
the institute should draw on the experience of apprenticeships, so | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
I'm pleased to announce we expect the Institute is to invite | :40:30. | :40:35. | |
apprentices to establish an apprentices panel, which would be | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
brought directly to the board. That panel would be made of apprentices | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
from different off-peak evasions and experiences, it would decide for | :40:45. | :40:51. | |
itself. -- occupations. I'm quoting from the Minister what he said from | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
the committee stage, the Institute will ensure the third panel is in | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
place before the Institute goes live in April 20 17. The institute will | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
consider how best to engage with apprenticeships on an ongoing basis | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
and how best to represent technical education should students -- | :41:08. | :41:17. | |
students as of 2018. Anyone reading the Hansard that would have gone to | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
the inclusion, as I did, that this was a very welcome the set of | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
concessions from the Minister and strong assurances, we thought, that | :41:26. | :41:30. | |
a panel would be set up before April. However, when we have gone | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
through the finer detail of the belated consultation document, we | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
find a paragraph which uses the words, but perhaps, perhaps there | :41:39. | :41:45. | |
would be the set of an apprenticeship panel which reported | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
directly to the Institute board to ensure that apprentices have the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
opportunity to have their say about education and training. They can | :41:53. | :41:54. | |
still improve the experience of those thereafter. Apps, Mr Deputy | :41:55. | :42:00. | |
Speaker, you are a student of the English-language, as I'm sure most | :42:01. | :42:03. | |
of the snow, is a lot weaker than the assurance. -- perhaps. As -- as | :42:04. | :42:13. | |
most of us know. The assurance that a panel will be set up before April. | :42:14. | :42:19. | |
The Minister also said during committee, as I said, about the | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
Institute needing to get how best to represent technical education June | :42:23. | :42:30. | |
and of those taking responsibly in 2018. Surely logical step to date is | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
to establish a similar pattern for technical education shouldn't that | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
are not undertaken apprenticeships. -- panel. Hopefully that panel will | :42:40. | :42:47. | |
not be prefaced by the word perhaps. It's important that the experience | :42:48. | :42:54. | |
and feedback help guide the new institute, particularly at the time | :42:55. | :42:57. | |
frame involved and the capacities of the resources of the Institute are | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
so limited. I want to come back to what we have said previously and | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
unity, and I want to make the comparison between what is going on | :43:09. | :43:13. | |
in this Bill, as to what went on in the eight G delve. If whatever | :43:14. | :43:22. | |
structure the DfEE ever says. -- AG Bill forgetting apprentices and | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
technical education dude and is seen to be inferior to not even done in | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
the same way as the University's Minister made concessions on the HE | :43:33. | :43:45. | |
Bill bell, then students in FE might think they are being treated as | :43:46. | :43:53. | |
second citizens. -- HE Bill. I want to seek assurance that this panel | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
will be set up before April and taking on board the war that we have | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
boots tonight, and it is not able to accept it tonight, make sure that it | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
goes on the face of the Bell in another place. I want to move on | :44:05. | :44:12. | |
now, Madam Deputy Seagate, to our new clause four, which would place a | :44:13. | :44:21. | |
statutory requirement to produce a strategy on career education. Now, | :44:22. | :44:27. | |
now one could fall, and I'm certainly not going to, no one could | :44:28. | :44:33. | |
pull the Minister on his enthusiasm verbally to get to grips with this | :44:34. | :44:36. | |
subject. It was one of the best thing that he said when he was | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
appointed and can any regular columns that he is now been having | :44:41. | :44:48. | |
in FE Week, he has continued to elude to this, that we need to | :44:49. | :44:51. | |
actually have a very strong strategy and very rapidly. That is because | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
the rhetoric on career advice spell does not match the wilful reality | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
facing young people. -- still does not. The Minister is here today and | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
I have seen, and they had he has also seen, the very disturbing | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
report from the Princes trust, which is just been released, which shows | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
the self-confidence of young people about their future and at its lowest | :45:19. | :45:24. | |
in eight years. That, and a whole range of issues cited in respect of | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
that, and I'm not going to stray from the amendment but specifically | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
advise and the state of jobs and careers are included in what is said | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
in this report. So, when the Minister said, in his New Year | :45:39. | :45:47. | |
article, for FE Week, that's 2017 is about making sure the gap right | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
guidance is on offer for technical education and location, and | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
apprenticeships, as much as it does University, reject him at his word | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
and the new clause four that we have in place tonight, is to give a | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
structure and a framework to what the Minister is saying. Now, I go | :46:05. | :46:09. | |
back to what I said two members of the governing on the HE Bill when we | :46:10. | :46:19. | |
were gelled that, I can assure you I will take this on board, this, that | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
and the other. -- told. But you know as well as I do that we are | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
legislating not just for one Minister of War one parliament, | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
possibly, but with something like further education -- Minister or for | :46:36. | :46:48. | |
one. But we appreciate you can in this area, but we would like to see | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
the duty to publish the strategy or the face of the bill. There is a | :46:53. | :47:00. | |
how's the providers, as he knows of employers, and employer's | :47:01. | :47:02. | |
organisations who have queued up with his department. -- employers' | :47:03. | :47:13. | |
organisations. To deal them help with the baby Government has dealt | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
with careers in the past. That is when why I said when a state to him | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
in the past, that they needed to promote strong career guidance, and | :47:24. | :47:26. | |
I also referred to the cross-party verdict from the two select | :47:27. | :47:31. | |
committee chairs on this matter. The Minister, I think, felt slightly | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
aggrieved at this, but the truth of the matter is, if we are going to | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
make a success of the Institute, we have to have these sort of thing | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
boot on the face of the deal. There has to be a mechanism -- put. For | :47:48. | :47:57. | |
whatever party and whatever governments over the next period of | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
time for which this bill is advised to work. I well. I thank the | :48:01. | :48:06. | |
honourable member for giving way and I know he feels passionately about | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
this subject, but does he not also agree with the bank that the | :48:11. | :48:13. | |
Government has an overarching approach to careers advice? It could | :48:14. | :48:19. | |
be difficult bridging arrangement into this particular bill that only | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
apply to technical education when there is a much broader issue at | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
stake, which the Government is tackling at a strategic level. I | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
care what the honourable gentleman at least they and it is true, of | :48:31. | :48:33. | |
course, but again, as with the discussion we are having at... Are | :48:34. | :48:39. | |
available to have this evening, career education... At 16, nor at | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
the remit of the DfEE in this particular bill. It start much | :48:47. | :48:54. | |
earlier. -- HE Bill. If that is an ardent for doing nothing with any | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
limited area of this Bill, I don't agree. We have to do something with | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
that and I would like to see erupting structure he is talking | :49:03. | :49:04. | |
about but, unfortunately, I would be quite happy at the moment just to | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
see a limited erupting structure for the area we are discussing this | :49:09. | :49:19. | |
evening. -- overarching. Two. About the ?90 million allocated for career | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
enterprise companies over this, we need to see that how it is | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
distributed and if Accu wrote. -- to talk about. By the Institute. -- | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
accurate. There was an very damning statistics. The proportion of | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
respondents that the Minister knows saying their advice was very poor | :49:43. | :49:48. | |
poor has remained high across all of the sexes. -- sectors. It's rather | :49:49. | :50:02. | |
worryingly went on to say that 94 survey respondents were not able to | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
receive any guidance at all. When we discuss this matter in committee, | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
those are the sort of statistics that we have available. And I said, | :50:14. | :50:19. | |
perfectly verbally, I thought, that alone the careers and enterprise | :50:20. | :50:24. | |
company were beginning to make progress. -- fairly. That I didn't | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
agree that, because they are heavily relied on volunteers, that they were | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
yet able to give the coverage and necessary. In December, early, in | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
December, we learned that the US and enterprise company does not cater to | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
every college around the country, including the hell of London. -- | :50:43. | :50:49. | |
carriers. -- Hall of London. There are cold areas at the moment. -- | :50:50. | :50:57. | |
whole. A lot of areas are not covered and London is completely | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
absent. Claudia Harris of the honourable gentleman confirmed that | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
the company did not like that any of the capital's CEC colleges. She | :51:07. | :51:17. | |
landed the lack of college on ramp-up. Ramp-up is what lesser | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
mortals would call the rolling out of pilots. I await a definition from | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
the Minister on that point. I'm not playing the blame for this at the | :51:32. | :51:38. | |
door for the careers and enterprise company I believe that the | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
Government are expecting them to do too much with too little, and I also | :51:44. | :51:49. | |
agree that, to have a company that is so heavily reliant on volunteers, | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
to carry out these that Basques, is actually probably something that the | :51:56. | :51:58. | |
Government have to think about and would again at. -- tasks. She, as I | :51:59. | :52:06. | |
said, then there would be an expansion of this to all schools | :52:07. | :52:09. | |
over the coming year, and that is fine. But where are the budget | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
implications for this? Is the Minister working on the Chancellor | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
already on a substantial high in the budget for the finding in this area? | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
Because he will certainly need it if he's going to address the issues | :52:25. | :52:29. | |
that we are talking about in this new clause. | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
There was a report in the middle of December which shoot the pure | :52:35. | :52:42. | |
quality of careers advice was limiting young people's choices. | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
Research carried out by the Institute for employment research at | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
the University of Warwick and commissioned by the foundation found | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
that only 1%, only 1%, of students had viewed careers advice at the | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
most important influence to stay on in further education. Over half of | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
them have said they wanted more information from employers. In the | :53:07. | :53:13. | |
New Year, the Minister New Year article, keep it priority on this. I | :53:14. | :53:20. | |
am taking him at his word. If these are indeed be Minister's aim, this | :53:21. | :53:27. | |
amendment, this clause which sets out fairly comprehensively how this | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
process would operate and if there are technical deficiencies in it or | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
practical deficiencies in it or drop Winship, we are welcome to your | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
suggestion, this amendment, new clause, is exactly what he needs to | :53:42. | :53:48. | |
make his rhetoric a reality. There is another saying that if wishes | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
were horses, beggars would ride. Maybe the Minister should get on and | :53:53. | :54:00. | |
accept what we say, otherwise he will remain a beggar come the budget | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
and we'll be looking for a scrap at the Chancellor's table. The other | :54:06. | :54:10. | |
thing, while blue on the subject of careers, one of the other things the | :54:11. | :54:15. | |
Minister used an earlier in the year at the Tory party conference, which | :54:16. | :54:22. | |
again we applaud and leave the previous Education Secretary had | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
made some announcements about it, plans to allow schools to give | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
people vocational academic route when providing careers advice, we | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
are told by the Times educational supplement was told, that's now been | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
put on ice as well. I would welcome some response from the Minister in | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
those areas. If I move on now to some of our other amendments, | :54:47. | :54:52. | |
particularly I want to just speak briefly to amendment format, which | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
is making sure that the Institute must have regard to the need to | :54:59. | :55:02. | |
promote equality of opportunity to pardon dissipate in widening access | :55:03. | :55:07. | |
and participation. The Minister and I agree that this bill at present a | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
real opportunity to reform an neglected vocational pathways and | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
support both 16 institutions. Presently, there are too few | :55:18. | :55:20. | |
students from disadvantaged backgrounds transitioning from level | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
to to higher levels of study. This means thousands of young people are | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
not realising their potential. High-quality technical education and | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
work -based training must act as a vehicle for social mobility and we | :55:35. | :55:39. | |
believe that by giving the Institute this obligation, it will help focus | :55:40. | :55:48. | |
it on changing that staters call. Presently, the Government does not | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
publish data, I stand to be corrected here, my belief that | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
Government does not publish data on the social background of apprentices | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
and that means it is difficult to assess just how many people from | :56:00. | :56:04. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds are starting and completing them. | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
However, we do note that recent research published by the social | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
mobility commission found that nationally young people eligible for | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
free school meals I have is likely to start and complete an | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
apprenticeship as there are better off peers. Just under 50% of | :56:20. | :56:28. | |
students in that capacity team and a or C GCSE in English or maths by 19 | :56:29. | :56:35. | |
as opposed to 74% of the better off peers. That means they lack the | :56:36. | :56:39. | |
grades to in rule on the level three pathways. There are also figures | :56:40. | :56:49. | |
that show that only 36% of them achieve a level three qualification | :56:50. | :56:54. | |
and that's compared with 61% of their better off peers. That shows | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
the importance of the transition year which is proposed in the | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
proposed 16 year skill plan. If that doesn't happen are doesn't happen | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
well, we will see a bigger gap, wider access to the new technical | :57:10. | :57:16. | |
routes and that will prevent them from being an effective vehicle for | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
social mobility. Why didn't participation amendment is | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
an increasing focus on widening an increasing focus on widening | :57:26. | :57:35. | |
participation and funding in 27 -- investing 33 million in wider | :57:36. | :57:39. | |
participation. Further education including apprenticeships deserve | :57:40. | :57:41. | |
the same sort of attention and scrutiny and the Institute must be | :57:42. | :57:46. | |
required annually to measure and report on the gap between | :57:47. | :57:49. | |
disadvantaged young people and their disadvantaged young people and their | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
peers accessing and progressing from technical pathways. I wasn't so | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, happy aware, Madam Deputy Speaker, happy | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
New Year to you as well. If I wasn't so aware of the woeful inadequacy of | :58:03. | :58:08. | |
these staffing proposals at the moment by the Institute, I might | :58:09. | :58:16. | |
suggest the Government might take a leaf out of HEA and have an offer | :58:17. | :58:23. | |
for HD students. We are not asking for that tonight. What we are asking | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
for is an appreciation of the fact that there needs to be that | :58:27. | :58:36. | |
particular focus for the Institute. I also want to couple it. We've | :58:37. | :58:43. | |
talked a lot in this chamber in the last year about the timescale for | :58:44. | :58:47. | |
delivering this 3 million target. I also want to talk briefly to | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
amendment five. Amendment five says that the Institute should and must | :58:53. | :58:58. | |
cooperate with the apprenticeship delivery board on a progression into | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
and delivery of apprenticeships. Now, at the terms of reference for | :59:05. | :59:11. | |
that delivery board were originally to have a board cheered by the | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
chairman of the apprenticeship Ambassador network and the Prime | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
Minister's adviser on apprenticeships to provide support | :59:22. | :59:23. | |
across all areas to ensure the Government's ambition of it using 3 | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
million programmes by 2020. It talked about the purpose to | :59:29. | :59:34. | |
implement employment engagement strategy, increase the number of | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
apprenticeships, secured new employment and engagement. It | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
sounded great. But when you delves into the delivery of the board, a | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
little further, it's not quite as it seems. First of all, the terms of | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
reference of it being shared by the Prime Minister's advisers on | :59:53. | :00:00. | |
apprenticeship. The Government could share, the honourable member for | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
Stratford-upon-Avon was stood down last autumn and that left only the | :00:04. | :00:12. | |
previous private sector chair of the board as its sole chair. People are | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
going to ask- where is the Government's adviser on | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
apprenticeships now? How about the rest of this committee? When this | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
Minister sang the praises the Minister sang the praises the | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
apprenticeship delivery board but I do have to tell him there were also | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
somewhat underwhelming so far. It was actually made up of members | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
remain narrowly section of business. It only had one woman in its number. | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
There was no rule for others, such as universities, trade unions and | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
local authorities. There has been, to be fair, some progress with the | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
number of women on the ADP and it's now got three. It's important those | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
lessons are taken on board the Institute. When the board was | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
announced, it was advertised as being a key part of the process. It | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
wasn't simply there to be a bully pulpit but what a direct an active | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
role. I question the Minister on that in committee and he responded, | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
I can reassure the honourable gentleman the apprenticeship | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
delivery board is in full flow. I meet with its chairman regularly and | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
goes up and down the country and works with businesses to encourage | :01:26. | :01:28. | |
them to employ apprentices, much of our success has been because of that | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
board's incredible work. Yet, I do have to tell the Minister that when | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
I've looked at the minutes of that board, and we have examined the | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
minutes, I don't quite get the same sense of achievement. Because what | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
the minutes shill over the summer period is a couple of employees from | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
large employers telling each other about random conversations and | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
meetings they have applied they have. With the occasional | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
presentation from the skills funding agency about their marketing plans. | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
There seems to have been very little coordinated action taken over the | :02:03. | :02:05. | |
summer months and it's quite clear to meet the delivery board is not | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
currently fulfilling that role. That is why we have put this amendment | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
down. The Institute for apprenticeships and technical | :02:16. | :02:17. | |
education does not have the resources are capacity to be taking | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
on these responsibilities will stop their focus is supposed to be on | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
developing standards. We know from the shadow chief executive that | :02:25. | :02:26. | |
staffing levels and finance are staffing levels and finance are | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
going to be limited, 60 rising to 100 possible when the technical | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
educational elements kick in. We have a very short space of time | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
between now and April start. I should have mentioned, Madam Deputy | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
Speaker, a princely budget of ?8 million a year on which the | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
Institute is supposed to be initially operating. There has to be | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
more focus on marketing. The delivery board is not just a trade | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
fair as these minutes suggest, it is meant to help develop and increase | :03:03. | :03:04. | |
the number of pensions. It must cooperate with the Institute to | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
succeed. It is vitally important now that the Government has strapped any | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
involvement they had and visibly forgotten about apprenticeships. I | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
want also to tut on another issue which we have moved an amendment on | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
tonight and that is to try and get some clarity and keep its focus on | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
the Government actually delivering money that will be additional or a | :03:31. | :03:34. | |
substitute for additional Government funding. The Government was already | :03:35. | :03:42. | |
spending ?1.5 billion on apprenticeships in 2016 and we are | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
told the levy is expected to raise ?2.9 billion by 2020 of which the | :03:49. | :03:54. | |
latest count, Madam Deputy Speaker, ?2.4 million will be spent in | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
England. So, where does the additional money go? Last year I | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
submitted a written question to the land skills Minister on this. I got | :04:05. | :04:12. | |
a sort of response saying that by 2019 two 2020, we expect to | :04:13. | :04:14. | |
2.5 billion on apprenticeships in 2.5 billion on apprenticeships in | :04:15. | :04:18. | |
England. My maths told me that if ?2.5 billion is raised from the | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
sector, and the Government is beating currently ?1.5 billion, that | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
means an extra billion pounds, which is what the Minister's reply says. I | :04:28. | :04:31. | |
come back to the point which we raised earlier last year- what's | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
going to happen to the remaining 1.5 billion raised? Is it going to be | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
40% for apprenticeships and 60% going straight back to the Treasury? | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
The challenge remains for this Government to convince employers and | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
stakeholders that this remains a stakeholders that this remains a | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
genuinely long-term funding commitment for apprenticeships and | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
not just something that becomes regarded as a Treasury payroll tax. | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
I'm grateful. I apologise for interrupting his magnificent speech. | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
problem of the pension levy is that problem of the pension levy is that | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
the Government is all over the place on it. When I talked to a major | :05:14. | :05:16. | |
supermarket chain, they said they have employees in Scotland, their | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
payroll is be sufficient magnitude, they will have to do the | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
apprenticeship levy but because of devolution, there is no guarantee | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
that supermarket chain's apprenticeship levy funding will in | :05:29. | :05:30. | |
fact in Scotland be used for fact in Scotland be used for | :05:31. | :05:32. | |
apprenticeships. That may be the apprenticeships. That may be the | :05:33. | :05:35. | |
case in Wales and Northern Ireland as well, I know not. That may go | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
some way to explaining the gap that my friend has put his finger on very | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
acutely as to where is the money going? It's because it's a mess | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
between the Treasury who haven't come to grips with devolution yet. | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
My honourable friend makes it very interesting and distinct points. | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
Again, if I wasn't constrained by talking about this particular | :06:00. | :06:02. | |
amendment, we would have some very interesting conversations about how | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
the devolution situation is happening. I need to stick to my | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
point out. The other point I would make, which is central to this | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
amendment, is what I just referred to the Minister in respect of the | :06:18. | :06:24. | |
coming budget. We now know that the budget I think, Madam Deputy | :06:25. | :06:27. | |
Speaker, is to be in the first week of March. Issues as to what the | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
rates and the threshold of the apprenticeship levy might be after | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
its first year of as we going to come to mind. The former Chief | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
Secretary to the Treasury after much prompting and questioning under the | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
previous Administration of David Cameron has said, quote, the | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
Government will keep the pension levy under review and I think all of | :06:49. | :06:54. | |
us know that means it can go up, theoretically it could go down. That | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
apprenticeship levy and the level which it is set and how much | :06:59. | :07:04. | |
companies get back from it will be crucial in deciding whether it's a | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
success or a flop. What conversation has the Minister had with the | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
Treasury? It's only eight weeks away, I dread to tell you, to the | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
budget day. To make sure that they budget day. To make sure that they | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
get the balance right. The more we hear, I said this in me and I shall | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
say it again here today, the more we hear about how the levy will now | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
need to fund the devolved administrations, English and maths | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
at levels two, incentive payments and non-levy payers, the more it | :07:40. | :07:42. | |
seems inevitable that this Government will end up raising the | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
levy. The and all the slightly more | :07:45. | :07:57. | |
technical amendments. -- I want now to deal with. The first is designed | :07:58. | :08:06. | |
to deal with the situation for privately funded and ASBO | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
qualifications is clarified. -- and this bloke. Without clarification, | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
there is a danger that the technical qualifications, we are told, that | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
professional accreditation skills they further solely by employers. -- | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
schemes. We do not believe it is the intention of the current to include | :08:33. | :08:35. | |
this but we want clarification. Yes, I will. I am grateful. I happy say, | :08:36. | :08:43. | |
I'm slightly bemused by this amendment. I think I understand it | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
but, when I come to this topic, it seems it would be desirable in | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
England, if not in the United Kingdom, to have a professional | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
framework of standards. Not simply that framework applying to | :08:57. | :09:03. | |
qualifications, which were obtained through a state funded institution. | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
Were expressed more brightly than that, on the face of it, it does | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
seem desirable to me. Perhaps my honourable friend to say more about | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
his approach to this. My honourable friend is quite right to raise that | :09:15. | :09:21. | |
particular issue in terms of the national framework. There has been | :09:22. | :09:30. | |
research reports over many years which indicate that the privately | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
funded trading market has been exceedingly publicly funded one by | :09:35. | :09:36. | |
considerable that includes specialist management training, | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
project and programme management. I do think this is an area where the | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
element perhaps needs to a little more carefully at how this process | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
is going to move, but I absolutely agree with him about the need to | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
have an overarching national framework in which we don't have the | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
moment. Moving on, if I can move amendment eight, which would ensure | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
the mapping of occupation groups, with particular regard for people | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
aged 16 to 24, this is crucial because many apprenticeship training | :10:13. | :10:14. | |
providers are reporting that, under the new levy system, employers are | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
deciding to choose apprentices aged over 19, rather than 16-18 year | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
olds, particularly when it comes to the new standards where, they say, | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
there is very little incentive for employers to take on younger | :10:32. | :10:33. | |
learners, especially in the higher funding bands, where ?1000 bonus is | :10:34. | :10:45. | |
available. As the Minister will know, it has predominantly been | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
delivered up to now, apprenticeships for 16-18 -year-olds are seeing | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
their majority of business switch to older individuals. Now, if you | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
look... If one looks at the Sainsbury's comments, the changes in | :11:00. | :11:10. | |
funding. -- award Sainsbury. Apprentices in the same band have | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
little effort to change that. Maybe that is the current's plan. If it is | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
so, the current have to be honest and tell us. If not, something has | :11:20. | :11:24. | |
to do the changed. Otherwise, we are in danger of ending up with fewer | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
apprenticeship opportunities for 16-18 year olds. I would quote to | :11:29. | :11:37. | |
the Minister the remarks of JTL recently, a training provider, who | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
say that under the new system, and lawyers say they would do and why | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
younger people aged 19 and older when they traditional age | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
differentials are removed. 16 and 17-year-olds, sometimes, are not our | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
on-site due to safety rules and some not having driving licence. It still | :11:56. | :12:00. | |
makes it worthwhile to take them on presently, but removing the new -- | :12:01. | :12:09. | |
and letting the new guidelines would make it difficult to do so. It was | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
thoughtfully given the emphasis that the so-called ?1000 incentive for | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
employers to recruit 16-18 year olds simply doesn't work for the Stem | :12:21. | :12:30. | |
sectors. I'm quoting again from JTL that the apprenticeship normally | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
lasts for years, upgrading to ?5 per week, which is of no interest to | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
employers. It is a timely reminder, a timely new rear area reminder to | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
the Minister -- New Year reminder, of these apprenticeship campaigns | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
that some parties are pleased to be involved with, a very broad range of | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
people were met, changes were promised but they haven't solved the | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
problem. They have applied and temporarily sticking plaster to it | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
and how long it will stick remains to be seen. Coming on top of the | :13:05. | :13:11. | |
continued lack of certainty about apprenticeships and the delay | :13:12. | :13:15. | |
consultation, there must be concerned about the fragility of the | :13:16. | :13:18. | |
Government's performance in the 16-18 area. Areas like Blackpool, | :13:19. | :13:29. | |
where we want to see the skilled apprenticeships now. It has also | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
been raised, I'm sure the Minister knows, the issue that a framework of | :13:35. | :13:42. | |
only 15 groups across technical education... Denying many young | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
people workplace roots of level two or three. We remain concerned about | :13:47. | :13:48. | |
that, given that so many young people in the service sector are not | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
like the GB covered by this. -- likely. This has been said -- likely | :13:55. | :14:03. | |
to be covered by this. Whether it is about technical education or | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
apprenticeships, young people in Blackpool and everywhere else needs | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
good training, whether it comes from the service sector on the | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
manufacturing sector. I would have thought that would have been made to | :14:14. | :14:19. | |
group focus on that, that would make a huge contribution to the social | :14:20. | :14:23. | |
justice agenda and even, arguably, to anticipate they impact of Brexit. | :14:24. | :14:34. | |
It is important there is a skill strategy which is inclusive and, | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
this is a perfect opportunity to create a coherent and inclusive | :14:40. | :14:41. | |
strategy that covers a wide range of different abilities, attitude and | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
striving for excellence, and that is what the intention of amendment | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
eight is there to do. I want, briefly, to talk to amendment nine, | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
which talked about all apprenticeship standards, including | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
recognised technical qualification. The Minister well-known that it's | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
not something we have been concerned about, a range of committees and | :15:05. | :15:11. | |
governors recently, again, a LP, have been concerned about this. . | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
Investment in time and measles is leading again to employability and, | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
in some areas, the lack of engagement. According to just 30% of | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
the current standard release, still don't have a mandatory column, | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
convocation included. -- qualification included. This would | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
be to make the whole apprenticeship a recognised qualification rather | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
than looking at its components. I want to move to amendment ten and | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
two group into it comments for 11-16 and indeed 18-21. Amendment ten on | :15:54. | :16:04. | |
page six talk about the need to change between the title of | :16:05. | :16:11. | |
documents to standard or technical design specifications. This is | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
intended to ensure that only copyright is required at a level to | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
acquit apprenticeships, regarding design specifications, which are the | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
equivalent of assessment plans, are all, it is argued, ground for | :16:27. | :16:35. | |
copyright. The Inquisition of acquired copyright, and this is | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
something that city and Guilds have specifically raised in evidence with | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
ourselves, other groups have as well, if the amendment come forward | :16:43. | :16:52. | |
because there is a concern that imposing acquired copyright is one | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
of the most significant risks to the future vitality of technical | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
education in the UK. I accept this is a complex and technical area, but | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
I do believe the Minister has to look carefully at it. I don't | :17:06. | :17:10. | |
believe it is simply a question of assisting providers wanting to set | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
in Stone a fall of protectionism. It is about intellectual property and | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
where intellectual property starts and ends. The concerns of many | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
providers is that there has been a degree of mission creep in the way | :17:26. | :17:32. | |
the bill has been drafted. I do have to say, from a pragmatic point of | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
view, is that broader definition of what the institute have to do in | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
terms of copyright, which is the existing one in the bill, remains. | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
That may require even more reason losses to police in UAE that advise | :17:45. | :17:54. | |
have already mentioned, lacking support. -- in the way. There is, I | :17:55. | :18:01. | |
say, are the important issue that we need to look at. I would like to | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
also make the point that the concern that each technical level will only | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
have one awarding organisation, something that has been raised by | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
about the Centre for study, market reform of education and the NCSC and | :18:18. | :18:27. | |
the NCS said, we believe -- NCFE. Only one of these going to one | :18:28. | :18:30. | |
awarding organisation would provide... Would... To have one with | :18:31. | :18:38. | |
the unfortunate, to quote Oscar Wilde, to have two would be | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
beneficial because it would provide competition and we could switch | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
quickly without having the multiplication issues that have | :18:48. | :18:48. | |
caused problems and difficulties elsewhere. The NCFE cassettes, I | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
think more in sorrow than anger, that the current proposals do not | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
seek to provide the great expertise in designing and assessing | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
professional and technical education provocations that already exist | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
within awarding organisations. Turning, if I may, to our amendments | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
11-16 to the bill, these are designed, again, to be consequential | :19:16. | :19:24. | |
on the amendments in amendments nine. Under an exclusive licensing | :19:25. | :19:31. | |
model, a licence holder for a particular qualification may assume | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
a qualified model pollack position for the duration, that is one of the | :19:38. | :19:45. | |
reasons why these are designed to move away from that principle. -- | :19:46. | :19:51. | |
monopolic. The principle, it seems, to ask is that there is a | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
rationalisation in rewarding operations. Not necessarily the | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
point of single operators on a licence and what this could do to a | :20:03. | :20:05. | |
monopoly at the single point of failure alongside all the IPR and | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
Crown copyright issues. I repeat, this is a concentrated area and they | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
appreciate that getting the balance right is not easy but I do urge him | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
to think very carefully about some of the representations that have | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
been made and again, if we cannot do anything about them tonight, then at | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
least two bring them forward in terms of the other place. The final | :20:32. | :20:44. | |
area which I want to comment on... Briefly... I've talked about the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
roots and the rest of it, is the amendment and that the GAA because | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
the amendments would ensure that the GAA would be in the about to share | :20:53. | :21:00. | |
information. Information. QAA. And that degree of apprenticeships would | :21:01. | :21:02. | |
be fully covered by this requirement. Ofsted should have the | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
authority do respect every apprenticeship. While the Wellcome | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
the growth and expects more under the levy, some are not genuinely | :21:14. | :21:20. | |
work -based learning and are closer to buy degrees. -- we welcome. | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
Stricter monitoring is needed so we argue that is the involvement of the | :21:25. | :21:36. | |
QAA is really necessary in this. Apprenticeships have to be just | :21:37. | :21:38. | |
that, proper apprenticeships and things that Ofsted have to be | :21:39. | :21:52. | |
engaged with. I am aware that there amendments have had to be discussed | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
in some considerable detail and some of them are technical, but the broad | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
thrust of we are trying to do is to urge the governments, firstly, to | :22:03. | :22:09. | |
act on its commitments and she go further and make some of the | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
rhetoric around social mobility and widening, and participation, a | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
reality. The only way to do that is to improve the bill with the sort of | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
amendments that we have brought forward this evening. | :22:22. | :22:29. | |
The question is that new clause one B read a second time. | :22:30. | :22:51. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This is the first time a microphone | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
appreciate it. Can I first wish my appreciate it. Can I first wish my | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
honourable friend and the House a happy New Year and also to all the | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
Christmas and throughout the New Christmas and throughout the New | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
Year as well. Can I thank you Madam Deputy Speaker for introducing the | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
debate and I am grateful for the honourable member for Blackpool | :23:23. | :23:24. | |
South for his amendment. As ever South for his amendment. As ever | :23:25. | :23:31. | |
very thoughtful. I will start by discussing the proposed new clause, | :23:32. | :23:35. | |
but I do want to just make the point that the honourable gentleman talked | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
about completion of apprenticeships 70% of apprentices complete, 90% get | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
employment or further training. We've got nearly 900,000 apprentices | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
at an all-time high, a record in our nation's history. I think we are | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
making good progress. He then talked about in the early part of his | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
remarks. He will know that between two present 14 and 2015, a | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
proportion of young adult increase to 90%, the highest on record. It | :24:12. | :24:19. | |
fell in 2014 to 6.5%. The lowest rate since records began. He talked | :24:20. | :24:27. | |
about the appointment and was going on yet again about Christmas. I have | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
to say to him that it's not just for Christmas, it's for life. We want to | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
get it right, we want to make sure that the appointments that we make | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
our the right ones and not to do them in haste. I think that the | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
honourable gentleman sometimes says we are doing things too quickly and | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
then on the other times he says we are doing things too slowly. Now, in | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
terms of new clause one, as I explained in the committee, the | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
institute will be required to report on its activities annually under | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
scheduled for the enterprise act and the report must be placed before | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
Parliament. That provision will also allow the Secretary of State to ask | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
the Institute report on anything else she thinks appropriate, such as | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
the information requested the amendment. We think it will be an | :25:18. | :25:23. | |
unnecessary and significant duplication of effort as this | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
information is already collected and published by the Secretary of State | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
apprenticeships. I have given him apprenticeships. I have given him | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
some of the figures a moment ago. Much of this information goes far | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
beyond the Institute. The ends digit's corporal from April 2017 is | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
to oversee and quality assured the development of standards and | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
assessment plans for use in delivering apprenticeships. Under | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
the reforms in the bill, college -based technical education cannot be | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
held wholly responsible. The job outcomes and wage rates for | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
apprentices once they complete their apprenticeships. It is essential | :26:00. | :26:04. | |
that the Institute is aware of the impact its making. We expected to | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
make good use of the data and the outcomes made available to | :26:09. | :26:09. | |
through these public data sources through these public data sources | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
and surveys. And to explain in its own report have it has deployed | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
them. I'm going to respond to new clause to proposed by the honourable | :26:19. | :26:25. | |
member. Of course. I am grateful to the Minister for the work he does. | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
He is very committed. Whenever I see him he is wearing the AA on his | :26:30. | :26:32. | |
lapel for his support for apprenticeship. Can you clarify one | :26:33. | :26:40. | |
point for me in relation to subsection two E which includes a | :26:41. | :26:43. | |
report on satisfaction rate of employers. The Minister will be | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
to reach the 3 million target there to reach the 3 million target there | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
will be dilation. I'm not saying there will be but there is concerned | :26:53. | :26:59. | |
there might be. Is the satisfaction rate of employers currently | :27:00. | :27:01. | |
collected, not every employer but through sampling and published, | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
because of it as it would be very important for it to be so that the | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
concerns about dilation of standards can be relieved. I thank him for his | :27:12. | :27:17. | |
comments. They are published and I think if I'm not mistaken it's near | :27:18. | :27:20. | |
90% in terms of employer satisfaction. I'm very happy to | :27:21. | :27:28. | |
provide him with information if you so requires. I agree with the | :27:29. | :27:34. | |
honourable member for Blackpool that the Institute does need to consider | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
the views of those who take an apprenticeship or a technical | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
education course and I'm confident it will do this. He will know and he | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
pointed out that we published draft strategic guidance for the Institute | :27:46. | :27:51. | |
last week. In this document that we now open for consultation, we set | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
out and expect the Institute to establish an apprentice panel that | :27:56. | :27:57. | |
will report directly to the board. I am pleased to say to the honourable | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
gentleman that it will be ready by April 2017. But I do want to make a | :28:05. | :28:11. | |
wider point that I'm not... I don't think we should rush things, we need | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
to get it right that apprentice panel will be made up of apprentices | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
from different occupations and experience. The apprentice panel | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
will decide for itself which issues to focus on and will challenge and | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
make recommendations to the board. I am sure it will be a success. It | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
will ensure that the views of apprentices are fed directly into | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
the Institute's covenants. But it might not be exactly the right model | :28:38. | :28:42. | |
in practice. I want to see how it works and I believe that the | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
Institute, particularly in its infancy, should have the flexibility | :28:47. | :28:48. | |
and freedom to decide the best way of gathering apprenticeship | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
ongoing basis. What ever model it ongoing basis. What ever model it | :28:52. | :28:54. | |
adopts, I would expect the Institute adopts, I would expect the Institute | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
of his and similar for technical education shouldn't when it takes on | :28:59. | :29:01. | |
this responsibility. I want to see how the apprentice panel pans out. | :29:02. | :29:13. | |
Thank you. I just want to be... Because of the implications of the | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
wording of the document, I want to be clear on this, is the Minister | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
giving an assurance on the floor of the House that the panel will be | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
setup for April? That he will review the progress of the panel on whether | :29:28. | :29:30. | |
and if he thinks it's not the right and if he thinks it's not the right | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
format of structure, that he will replace it with something that will | :29:35. | :29:38. | |
be equally valuable in representing the views of apprenticeships to the | :29:39. | :29:45. | |
board of the Institute? I am pleased to give the honourable gentleman | :29:46. | :29:48. | |
that guarantee. It will be set up by April. I believe that it would be | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
pointless to have an Institute of apprenticeships in Terrigal | :29:56. | :29:56. | |
education without proper apprenticeship reputation. But I do | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
want to see what is the best format and I'm sure it'll work. It will be | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
a success. I just want to see how it pans out, as I have said. And then | :30:08. | :30:11. | |
something similar for technical something similar for technical | :30:12. | :30:16. | |
education students. I agree the motivation of the amendment but I am | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
concerned about enshrining the establishment panels and | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
legislation. I don't want to pick the Institute and a constant | :30:25. | :30:28. | |
straitjacket of legislative red tape to reflect every good idea that | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
there may be to how best to fulfil its responsibility. That amendment | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
is unnecessary. It would undermine the Institute's power to regulate | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
its own governance and perform its duties. In terms of new clause four, | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
career strategy, the honourable lady made a remarkable speech in | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
about this as I do. I think that we about this as I do. I think that we | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
do have meat on the bones. It is not just words. The | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
talked about budgets. We are talked about budgets. We are | :31:05. | :31:13. | |
spending ?90 million. That is just an the work of the career centre, | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
there is a separate ?77 million being spent this year on national | :31:21. | :31:27. | |
careers service guidance. I am going further, looking at career strategy | :31:28. | :31:33. | |
from beginning to look at how we can make sure it addresses our skill | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
needs, how we can help the most disadvantaged, how we can ensure | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
there is widespread provision and quality provision and how it leads | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
to jobs and security. I will set out my plans on career is over the | :31:49. | :31:55. | |
coming weeks. But the investment in the careers enterprise company, he | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
seemed to suggest there was no activity in London. I've been myself | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
to a school in east London, supported by the careers enterprise | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
company and the local enterprise partnership doing remarkable work. | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
Some 1300 advisers are connecting schools and colleges. They are | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
looking and slowly creating a way to connect with 250,000 students in the | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
75% of the cold spots around the country. There is money for | :32:27. | :32:34. | |
mentoring as well. I think that the honourable gentleman talked about a | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
famine. There's not a feast that there is certainly substantive and | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
serious fans going into this. I could spend a lot of time listing | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
all the different monies and things that their art but I think he looks | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
at this carefully and fairly, he will see the work that the careers | :32:51. | :32:57. | |
enterprise company is doing. We will monitor carefully the impact of our | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
work, destination date will be included and the National | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
time in January 20 17. Ensuring an time in January 20 17. Ensuring an | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
even sharper focus on the success of schools and colleges in supporting | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
the students. We did legislate for my time to make sure that schools | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
gave independent careers advice in terms of skills and apprenticeships. | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
That was done by my predecessor. There is work being done in schools. | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
I welcome the thoughtfulness of the honourable member proposing the new | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
clause but it's my view because of the action we are taking, because of | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
the careers plans that I am developing, because of the money | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
that is being spent as I've highlighted, the proposed new clause | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
is not necessary. In terms of the amendment for, the equality of | :33:51. | :33:59. | |
opportunity, this as you said requires the Institute to promote | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
the opportunity to debate this. I the opportunity to debate this. I | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
know why you've tabled it, why it is important. It is crucial to widen | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
access and bridges are patient and ensure apprenticeships in technical | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
education accessible to all, which is why I was glad that this year we | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
have our 60 million fund to help encourage apprenticeships, in our | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
most deprived areas of our country. I want to reassure the House that | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
the Institute or pensions and technical education will have to | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
have due regard to widening access and participation. We carried out an | :34:37. | :34:42. | |
equalities impact assessment before publishing the post-16 skills plan | :34:43. | :34:45. | |
which concluded the reforms are likely to have positive impact on | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
individuals with protected characteristics. In particular those | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
with special education needs and disability, those with prior | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
attainment, those who are economically disadvantaged. The | :34:57. | :34:59. | |
economic assessment concluded that all learners would benefit from the | :35:00. | :35:01. | |
proposed technical education reforms, which will give people | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
access to high-quality technical education courses. I believe the | :35:06. | :35:10. | |
need to promote equality of opportunity in connection with | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
access to and participation for technical education has already | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
exists in the legislation under the section 149 and 105 of the equality | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
act. It is expressible leak set out in sections of the 2009 act that the | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
Institute must have regard to persons who may wish to undertake | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
educational training within its remit. The Secretary of State has | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
the power to provide the Institute with further guidance under that | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
section. I hope that explanation that you confidence. I'm committed | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
to ensuring people of all backgrounds have equal | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
opportunities. Over Christmas, he will know that we removed the need | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
for people who had hearing, apprentices who have serious hearing | :35:57. | :36:02. | |
difficulties to do functional English and are able to do sign | :36:03. | :36:07. | |
language instead. That's an example of my commitment as well as the | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
extra funding we're getting to employers and to providers in terms | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
of getting more apprentices who are disabled. Of course. Could the | :36:19. | :36:30. | |
Minister confirm that bringing together the oversight of | :36:31. | :36:32. | |
apprenticeships and technical education in one place will bring a | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
court hearings into the system to help ensure and protect diversity | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
and equal opportunity by clearer guidance on all opportunities in | :36:45. | :36:45. | |
terms of career progression? My honourable friend and can think | :36:46. | :36:57. | |
of all on diversity issues and equality is absolutely right. It | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
will benefit the people who need it most. Many people from disadvantaged | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
backgrounds and disabilities are very much prominent in further | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
education and technical education. I just want to move on to amendments | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
five in terms of the apprentice delivery, but I thought the | :37:19. | :37:20. | |
honourable gentleman was a little bit unkind about the border. The | :37:21. | :37:32. | |
board's representative, Channel 4, the London group, where | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
construction, Ministry of Defence, retail, significant retail sector | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
member, and, as he said, three women on it. They are doing important | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
work. They are advising the Government, they are working with | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
business to encourage them to have apprentices and I think these people | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
are not being, as far as I'm aware, not being paid. They don't have to | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
do it but they do it because they want to serve our country and they | :38:06. | :38:12. | |
help the apprentice network, the chair, David Neville, is doing | :38:13. | :38:16. | |
important work on that. I paid review to them and I wouldn't be -- | :38:17. | :38:23. | |
Mellor. Whether or not the Prime Minister has or has not, and | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
apprenticeship advisor. As far as I'm concerned, the Prime Minister's | :38:28. | :38:30. | |
apprenticeship advisor is the apprentice Minister, myself. And my | :38:31. | :38:40. | |
boss, the Secretary of State. Having some adviser or not, I don't think, | :38:41. | :38:46. | |
is going to change the course of history in terms of having | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
apprentices in our country. I'm grateful to his generosity. I think | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
a lot of us see him as a journeyman, to use an old-fashioned term. He is | :38:56. | :39:03. | |
a Minister for apprentices. In terms of representation, I do notice in | :39:04. | :39:06. | |
your list he read out and forgive me, because I did meet this before, | :39:07. | :39:13. | |
any trade union representation. Is he an active trade unionist, are | :39:14. | :39:16. | |
certainly was, would he agree with me that it would be desirable to get | :39:17. | :39:21. | |
buying from the workforce side, we do have some trade union | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
representatives on the board. I have to say, he was pleased to know that | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
I am still a trade unionist and what a good idea. The board is | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
independent but I will suggest it. I'm very impressed and supportive of | :39:37. | :39:46. | |
the work that they do, which is widely funded by ?12 million, | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
because of the work that they do to promote apprenticeships. Of course, | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
it will be the case that the institute will consult with all | :39:57. | :40:01. | |
these bodies, delivery board and other bodies, but, as I say, | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
identity we need to straitjacket this is so much red tape that please | :40:09. | :40:17. | |
stop it from being independent. The delivery board is not intended to | :40:18. | :40:24. | |
have any special legislative corporate identity and it would be | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
unusual to name it in legislation but, of course, they will consult | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
with it, as with others. If I can move on to amendments six, this | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
requires the Institute's expansion and anyone here to exceed by the | :40:40. | :40:44. | |
levy. It's important to clarify that the Institute will not have | :40:45. | :40:50. | |
responsibility for the budget, which resides with the Secretary of State | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
for Education. Then the Institute is not a funding body, it will be asked | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
to advise on the pricing of funding bands, the story finally from my | :41:02. | :41:07. | |
department and not from levy fines. It follows that the Institute should | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
not be obliged to spend funds to be raised under the levy. In terms of | :41:12. | :41:19. | |
the devolution, the honourable gentleman mentioned, it would be up | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
to the devolved authorities how they spend that money. If we were too | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
tightly spending explicitly to the levy received, there can be as | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
funding consequences for the programme as a whole. -- tie the. I | :41:34. | :41:43. | |
think the budget spending on apprenticeships in 2019 and 2020 for | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
England, and the devolved administration total in excess of | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
2.9 billion. As opposed to ?2.8 billion. Training is preferable to | :41:52. | :41:58. | |
directly linking the funding on a year by year basis to the wider | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
performance. Of course. I thank the Minister for giving way on that | :42:04. | :42:10. | |
point. The third largest college providing apprenticeships in | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
England, training ever 9000 apprenticeships nationally, the | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
Institute of apprenticeships are particularly interested in how the | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
funding formula works and how it follows the work they are being | :42:24. | :42:26. | |
directly in the gene disease. The point the minister makes your levy | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
and the funding criteria and how it will be delivered, in giving that | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
clarity, is very well this evening. -- welcome. I thank my honourable | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
friend AA and it is brilliant whatever college is doing. I will be | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
pleased, when I'm in the area, to either training. They will also be | :42:46. | :42:53. | |
receiving significant funds. I congratulate that college for the | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
wreck it is doing for apprenticeships. Now, amendments | :42:57. | :43:02. | |
seven would limit the power to confer new funding on the Institute | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
to state funded apprenticeships and technical education. All of the | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
Institute's print functions in part four, scheduled for the enterprise | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
act 2016, and schedule one of the bill apply to all apprenticeships | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
and technical education both occasions, not just date funded | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
ones. I would expect that any new funding coming from that should be | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
the same way to make sure they are fully effective and do not treat | :43:32. | :43:34. | |
anything differently in accordance with how they are paid for. We want | :43:35. | :43:38. | |
to ensure that as many people as possible can undertake an | :43:39. | :43:40. | |
apprenticeship or technical education course and I would not | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
want this to be restricted to those that are state funded, purely | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
because the Institute's functions have been limited. I now we spawned | :43:49. | :43:59. | |
to amendment eight. -- respond. It is important that it is considered | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
what apprenticeship might be considered appropriate for 16-24 | :44:03. | :44:09. | |
-year-olds and we know that apprentices are important to school | :44:10. | :44:12. | |
leavers and making sure that anyone from the age of 16 will have an | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
offering of either academic or technical education, or an | :44:18. | :44:20. | |
apprenticeship. The occupational maps, which the Institute will be | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
together, and which will guide Institute will be based on | :44:27. | :44:28. | |
information about the skills needs of the country. They will focus on | :44:29. | :44:34. | |
helping productivity and meeting the needs of employers. By putting any | :44:35. | :44:37. | |
constraint around the development of the maps and the occupations | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
included, such as focusing on a particular group of the population, | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
it would damage this overall aim. My department runs a number of highly | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
successful promotional and advertising this is to help make | :44:51. | :44:56. | |
sure young people access the right apprenticeships for them. And a | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
significant amount of 16-18 year olds take up stands objects. Will | :45:00. | :45:09. | |
even as they give way? Can't I just ask the Minister on the point of | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
STEM subjects and the advice given, is the real problem that, actually, | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
successive governments have tried to do that and this legislation is very | :45:18. | :45:23. | |
well-meaning in trying to do that, and will make a positive difference | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
in many respects, but isn't the very real problem that successive | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
governments have failed in their desire to persuade people that the | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
vocational route is as good as the academic route? Isn't that a | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
problem, culturally, for this country, which has the Devil also | :45:41. | :45:52. | |
decades? -- bedevilled. That is right, one of the first things I say | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
is transforming culture. As said, it's not just governments, its | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
business as well that have underinvested. It has always been | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
seen as a so-called... I head each end, Cinderella sector. The whole | :46:06. | :46:13. | |
purpose of the Sainsbury re-forms is to change behaviours and give | :46:14. | :46:17. | |
apprenticeships and skills, and technical education and prestige | :46:18. | :46:23. | |
that they deserve. The real question for the minister, as it was when I | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
was a Schools Minister, and other people, when a Conservative, | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
Liberal, Labour relic, why would it be different this time, given that | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
this is the sort of...? The Minister is absolutely right in what he has | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
said, but why will it be given this time to all the other times that | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
have gone before? Well, I wasn't around with the other times, but I | :46:47. | :46:54. | |
do believe that reforms... Of course we have difference. There is | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
cross-party consensus on the Sainsbury forms, the levies are a | :46:59. | :47:03. | |
fundamental reform and it's not just about changing this. -- reform. I | :47:04. | :47:09. | |
believe there's a new conversation about apprenticeships and things are | :47:10. | :47:15. | |
changing. Of course, the proof of the pudding will be any teaching but | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
we are on Egypt of something very special but a lot more has to be | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
done. -- the tip. I will just speak briefly on the other amendments. | :47:29. | :47:37. | |
Some of them. Because of time. The amendment nine, we... Feel that we | :47:38. | :47:46. | |
don't need to, whilst it's important, I understand, things that | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
the honourable gentleman races, we feel that it's not necessary to have | :47:50. | :47:56. | |
an amendment on that. -- raises. The important feature on amendment on | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
apprenticeships and it is on qualifications making up an | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
apprenticeship to want an end assessment. By not mandating | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
qualification standards unless they meet these criteria, ensuring that | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
individual employers have the freedom and flexibility to turn how | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
they train as an apprentice is to make sure they gain full confidence | :48:21. | :48:29. | |
in C, -- competency. In terms of the education copyright permissions, | :48:30. | :48:35. | |
there are very complicated... I understand why the honourable | :48:36. | :48:39. | |
gentleman has brought them through. We don't agree, we don't think it's | :48:40. | :48:47. | |
necessary. We think some of it is covered by existing legislation, but | :48:48. | :48:50. | |
we do think the Institute should have rights of copyright, | :48:51. | :48:59. | |
particularly... And the employers who are the licensees will know | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
this, whether... The bodies, sorry, that work in the Institute will know | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
that the Institute should have copyright. We don't agree with | :49:08. | :49:14. | |
changing the word, roots, because we think it will be confusing to | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
employers. I wanted to be procedures. I want technical | :49:20. | :49:26. | |
education, identify the word tech levels because it's dumbed down an | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
important provocation. In terms of amendment 17, the power to transfer | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
technical education certificates, we have a duty of care to the taxpayer. | :49:35. | :49:42. | |
The industry is not making money out of this, it's about giving them the | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
power to do so if they so choose. Having a duty of care to the | :49:47. | :49:49. | |
taxpayer. I think that's important why we don't support that amendment. | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
In terms of the quality assurance agency in an 18-21, the organisation | :49:55. | :50:03. | |
was not already named -- the organisations that are already named | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
already have this. This clause reflects in part of the changes that | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
are being introduced in the higher education research bill that is | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
currently in the other place. Now, I don't think that the proposed | :50:18. | :50:20. | |
amendment 20, which specifies apprenticeships included those of by | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
high-risk Asian Institute, is required. I'm Claire that they can | :50:26. | :50:27. | |
apprenticeships include all apprenticeships. -- higher education | :50:28. | :50:38. | |
institutes. . Providing training. -- clear. I thank the honourable member | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
for the amendments and other contributions for the other | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
honourable members and I hope my responses to these amendments have | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
reassured the honourable member Polak in this house about this. I | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
beg to move that easily withdrawn. -- tenders. -- members. | :50:55. | :51:04. | |
I did want to pick the use of my remarks on this amendment in | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
context. I was speaking to someone recently who made the very good | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
point. Who is sitting on the bathrooms and kitchens in Poland. | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
This person had very good experience of delegations from Romania working | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
in this country. The conversation we had was about Brexit and the skills | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
shortage in the United Kingdom. Brexit, whichever side of that | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
wrong, gives an opportunity to our wrong, gives an opportunity to our | :51:38. | :51:43. | |
country to try to address the skills shortages that we have, for decades, | :51:44. | :51:51. | |
relied on filling by importing workers. There are fingers | :51:52. | :51:59. | |
roundabout, I don't know them exactly. As to the proportion of NHS | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
bodies who were trained abroad. We would all conceive it is quite a | :52:05. | :52:10. | |
high proportion. Those people often, not always, come from countries | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
which can ill afford to lose them. The UK as a rich country because we | :52:15. | :52:21. | |
haven't got our technical education and apprenticeships architecture | :52:22. | :52:28. | |
correct ends up poaching skilled labour on occasions from countries | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
who desperately need that Labour to build their own economies. He is | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
making a very thoughtful point and he may be aware that in Lithuania | :52:39. | :52:40. | |
there is now a very successful party there is now a very successful party | :52:41. | :52:47. | |
which is against in the -- emigration but immigration. I'm not | :52:48. | :52:55. | |
surprised. I had the joy in the last Parliament of visiting Lithuania and | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
that's the sort of thing we talked about. In those days, Lithuania was | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
already starting to import labour from Moldova, outside the EU, | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
because so many Lithuanians with their skills had come particularly | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
to the UK and Ireland to apply their respective trades and I'm intrigued | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
specifically. What this bill does and I think what my honourable | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
friend on the front has sought to do is to beef up the bill in two ways. | :53:23. | :53:31. | |
One is to introduce even more confidence in the new system which | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
we will have and part of that confidence building is towards | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
national standards because this, I think, addresses the issue or | :53:44. | :53:45. | |
partially addresses the issue raised partially addresses the issue raised | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
by my honourable friend about the parity of esteem in which we talked | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
about earlier this afternoon between mental health and physical health, | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
departed esteem between vocational and academic. At one point in my | :54:00. | :54:02. | |
life, having been a semiskilled worker for a number of years, a bus | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
driver and professional driver, I faced a fort in the road. Was I | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
going to go down the vocational route? Be a plumber? Or down the | :54:11. | :54:12. | |
academic route, be a lawyer. I went academic route, be a lawyer. I went | :54:13. | :54:17. | |
down the route and became a lawyer. I don't regret it at all. One of the | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
reasons I did that was because of esteem or lack thereof. Another one | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
was because you get to work indoors, plumbers are on building sites | :54:29. | :54:31. | |
working outdoors I don't like the cold. In those days, I'm talking a | :54:32. | :54:38. | |
little while ago, the money was better in Lord and it was in | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
plumbing and I'm not sure that's the case now. We let in a capitalist | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
society. Part of what we need to do is to moods towards that parity of | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
esteem and it's the sort of thing is the Minister has been trying to do | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
during his tenure in that job through this bill. Part of it in a | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
capitalist society is to pay people more. If you want parity of esteem, | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
started being people equal amounts, start paying the plumber is as much | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
as the lawyers and this being capitalism we are moving to that | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
because of skills -- shortages. New clause one, I quite understand what | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
the Minister said about some of the information that he's already | :55:18. | :55:21. | |
act, but I think having it on the act, but I think having it on the | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
face of this bill as my honourable friend the member for Blackpool | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
South has said would be helpful in terms of the message we sent about | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
confidence and similarly with new clause to in terms of having a | :55:34. | :55:35. | |
system for those representative system for those representative | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
panels were more representative and were in place. I welcome what the | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
Minister has said this afternoon, his assurance that those panels will | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
be in place by April and I hope they will have a bread of representation | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
which should I think be on the face of the legislation. He replied | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
positively in a slightly different context of trade unions being | :56:00. | :56:03. | |
involved. This is not simply some kind of tit-for-tat, you've got the | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
bosses on there, we've got to have the workers on the hour. That's | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
important but it's about getting buy in from all sections of our society | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
for this new regime to build towards, as I say, addressing the | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
skills shortages that we will face under Brexit because under Brexit, | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
there is no mistake, the price for staying in the single market would | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
be free movement of labour and free movement of people. The United | :56:30. | :56:32. | |
Kingdom population as a whole have said they're not up on that, they | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
don't want that, they don't want free movement of people are free | :56:38. | :56:39. | |
movement of labour. We are not staying in the single market but | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
were not having that free movement either. There will be restrictions | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
and we ought to be using that any and we ought to be using that any | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
train up for the jobs and we don't train up for the jobs and we don't | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
keep putting skilled people from abroad whether Lithuania are | :56:53. | :56:54. | |
elsewhere. We need for that national elsewhere. We need for that national | :56:55. | :57:06. | |
standards. I think that for the confidence we need proper advice | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
because careers advice, certainly in England, has been to say the least | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
patchy over the years. My own Government remember when we set up | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
Connections and that was a resounding success, certainly in the | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
West Midlands. I think that new clause four, I would urge the | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
Minister to think again because it is to do with building confidence, | :57:29. | :57:35. | |
particularly new clause four sub three B and D, be reading, ensure | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
that such information of advice and guidance may be taken into account | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
by the relevant authorities and partners to meet the needs of local | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
combined authority areas. And 43 D would be to quote monitor the | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
outcomes of such information and advice and guidance for recipients. | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
Because that is part of confidence building that we have a regime which | :58:01. | :58:06. | |
is sensitive to a local labour markets and local labour market | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
world changed greatly come April 2019 when we are out of the European | :58:13. | :58:20. | |
Union. This bill is part of the Government is surprisingly given | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
what's not happening and other areas, showing a bit of foresight | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
about that and I congratulate the Minister and Matt Wood that we had | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
such foresight about some of the ramifications Rebecca and other | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
areas of public endeavour. But we don't. This bill is a step in part | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
of that digs for me. I'm not saying that's when a minister sought to | :58:40. | :58:41. | |
introduce to the house, but I do think we should look upon positively | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
in that way. I think the new clause four would help build the confidence | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
in the new system and make sure that it was reflective and flexible. | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
Because the Minister, in referring to amendment nine, and the ones | :58:56. | :59:03. | |
friend from Blackpool side said are friend from Blackpool side said are | :59:04. | :59:10. | |
under the umbrella of nine, talked about employers having freedom and | :59:11. | :59:18. | |
flexibility. Amendment nine is to do with recognised technical | :59:19. | :59:21. | |
qualifications, something that I mentioned earlier in this debate, | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
which is to do with national standards, certainly for England, | :59:26. | :59:26. | |
that we have those as part of the that we have those as part of the | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
confidence building measure but also as part of making sure that we have | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
the right people with the right skills. In a sense, workforce | :59:35. | :59:41. | |
planning. This country is pretty poor at workforce planning. The one | :59:42. | :59:48. | |
area where we could have excellent workforce planning because the | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
number of employees is so enormous and almost all of them work for the | :59:53. | :59:58. | |
state is in health care delivery. Yet, it's absolutely appalling. We | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
don't have enough Doctor strange, dentists, not enough professions | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
allied to medicine, the botanists, radiographers, yet that is the one | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
area at workforce planning, which the Government could get right, and | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
this is not just this Government that has singularly failed, though | :00:18. | :00:19. | |
the coalition Government of things to go backwards in terms of shutting | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
down some nurse training places and so on. But the figures are the | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
number of employers on the NHS in England alone is a huge that one can | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
take into account social training and do some pretty good workforce | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
planning at the kind of skills one is going to need in five years, the | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
ten years it takes to train a doctor and so on. Since 1948, arguably, | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
we've been rubbish about. I think having national standards is | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
important. It's important for confidence and workforce planning. I | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
would urge the Minister to have another think about the import of | :00:52. | :00:58. | |
amendment nine, if not the actual wording of it. Because it's all very | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
well having flexibility and freedom for employers, which I think were | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
correct me if I'm wrong, as to why correct me if I'm wrong, as to why | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
he thought amendment nine should not be supported in the insight from my | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
honourable friend from Blackpool side to withdraw it. The Minister | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
should have another think about that because national standards are | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
important. I draw on my own experience. And qualified as a | :01:22. | :01:29. | |
lawyer, I take exams which covered everyone he was seeking to be a | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
cluster in England and Wales. A national exam. For most of us, if we | :01:34. | :01:39. | |
passed it, we then went on to the equivalent of an apprenticeship, it | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
was called articles of clerkship, two years citizens office, when that | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
was changed, no longer to be in national exam taken by everyone who | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
wished to be a solicitor in England and Wales, but became a moderated | :01:53. | :02:02. | |
one to the other. It changed to a one to the other. It changed to a | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
legal practice course. And standards went down. I see that having taught | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
-- talked to people in post secondary institutions at the time, | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
having myself trained article clerks who had come through the later | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
system when we didn't have the national standards. Having national | :02:26. | :02:27. | |
standard is not a guarantee of standard is not a guarantee of | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
But it is something which can be But it is something which can be | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
used by any Government quite legitimately and quite properly to | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
make sure we have confidence in the system and that those who are going | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
through an apprenticeship system and are coming out as fully qualified | :02:43. | :02:48. | |
has a qualification which is worth having for them as an individual and | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
is worth every society having. I think national standards are | :02:55. | :03:01. | |
desirable in that context. I thank the honourable gentleman before | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
giving way. I just want to make the point that qualifications can be | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
mandated in an apprenticeship standard if it's a mandatory | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
requirements set by the regulator, he was talking about... These | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
include qualifications recognise as the legal requirement, licence | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
practice, reduced as a... When applying for jobs in the occupation | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
related to the standard and the apprentice would be disadvantaged | :03:31. | :03:31. | |
the job market without it. I thank the job market without it. I thank | :03:32. | :03:38. | |
the Minister for that clarification. He helpfully makes the point of me. | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
We are going to have national standards in certain fields of | :03:43. | :03:44. | |
endeavour which he has just endeavour which he has just | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
helpfully laid out. I think if I may say so, there is a contradiction in | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
his position which I don't think I suffer from this contradiction. When | :03:53. | :03:55. | |
we look at amendment seven, to do we look at amendment seven, to do | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
with the state funded aspect, where my honourable friend from Blackpool | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
size would insert the word state funded and the Minister, I find, | :04:06. | :04:10. | |
persuasively, the ministers set out why he thought that would not be | :04:11. | :04:15. | |
right to have an amendment because, as I understood him and I may have | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
misunderstood, he was looking for a more overarching model which would | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
encompass privately obtained qualifications. I agree with him | :04:26. | :04:31. | |
there. I'm just saying if one is not accepting an amendment to seven, | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
then there is the logic of accepting something like amendment nine to say | :04:36. | :04:38. | |
it's not just going to be state funded and we are going to have | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
national standards, not just on that broad but restricted field the | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
Minister just helpfully read out to have it more broadly than that | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
because I think that would be better for confidence and better for our | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
economy. It would be better for the people, many of whom will be young | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
people, but not all of them, who will be getting as qualifications. I | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
ask the Minister to think again. A similar issue arises to me in | :05:04. | :05:09. | |
amendment 18 through 21 on the quality assurance agency for higher | :05:10. | :05:11. | |
education and its involvement in these whole process. Again, that to | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
me is about confidence that employers and prospective | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
apprentices and for the younger ones, their families, it confidence | :05:23. | :05:23. | |
they can have any system that it is they can have any system that it is | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
going to deliver a qualification which our country needs and which is | :05:30. | :05:37. | |
that those individual that those individual | :05:38. | :05:39. | |
apprenticeships when they finish will not only likely have a job, but | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
will be contributing to society in a way which we would like them to back | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
to the workforce planning point. I think that the Minister and the | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Government to think again on amendments 18 through 21, not the | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
exact wording of them but to include the quality assurance agency for | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
higher education as part of this process of agencies, which will have | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
a role to play in the planning and in the maintenance and perhaps even | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
of raising standards, that would be desirable. I wish to make a brief | :06:15. | :06:23. | |
contribution building on I was a member of the Bill committee and it | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
was a very constructive Bill committee with much cross-party | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
support, both with the Minister who has a real passion and a real depth | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
of knowledge in this area and well supported by our shadow minister who | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
demonstrated a genuine interest in this particular area. I want to | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
focus on one specific area which the shadow minister raises in his desire | :06:44. | :06:50. | |
to promote the equality of opportunity. For me, that includes | :06:51. | :06:53. | |
those with a disability. Specifically those with a learning | :06:54. | :06:59. | |
disability. This Government has made great progress in helping more | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
disabled people into work, 600,000 were disabled people in work in the | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
last three years, which is fantastic. However, those with a | :07:09. | :07:10. | |
learning disabilities still continue to find it extremely difficult to | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
take, to benefit from the opportunities of work. It is about | :07:17. | :07:17. | |
6%. Of giving way but does he agree with | :07:18. | :07:26. | |
me that we need to help the employers to deal the people with | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
disabilities mental health issues, disabilities mental health issues, | :07:32. | :07:33. | |
because that requires a lot of support for the employer as well as | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
the person taking the apprenticeship? Absolutely. That | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
going to make because it is both... going to make because it is both... | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
It takes time for people to develop skills but it gives an opportunity | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
for the employer to be able to provide a suitable opportunity for | :07:52. | :07:53. | |
the person with the learning disability. We tried to give | :07:54. | :08:03. | |
everyone an opportunity, that is around 6%. The worst percentage of | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
any disability and it provides the largest challenge. When I was the | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
Minister for disabled people, I went along to Fox's Hotel in Bridgwater | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
and I was incredibly impressed by the fact that they managed to get | :08:17. | :08:22. | |
80% of their young students into work. A three-year course, two years | :08:23. | :08:30. | |
inside a working hotel where they land to have independent living | :08:31. | :08:34. | |
skills and also to work towards having a job once they've finished. | :08:35. | :08:39. | |
Within that working hotel, name the learning the skills that were needed | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
for their local talent, which was hotels, restaurants, care homes. In | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
all our own individual constituencies, we've got our own | :08:48. | :08:50. | |
skill gaps, so you would adapt it accordingly. For yeah, they spent | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
the year continuing their learning directly in the workplace. My | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
honourable friend for High Peak highlights the importance for | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
employers, it gave the employers and opportunity to have support. Fox's | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
Academy would come along and provide training, advice to the employer and | :09:11. | :09:16. | |
the staff, gave the young lad or lady the opportunity to learn those | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
skills patiently over a year and, to me, it was an apprenticeship. They | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
were learning skills on the job. I invited the team back in to talk to | :09:27. | :09:33. | |
me. We ask about increasing numbers and they said they could, but the | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
final yes expensive because we have to go in and support the employer do | :09:40. | :09:46. | |
that training. -- final yeah. It seems, to me, every can read that | :09:47. | :09:49. | |
this is an apprenticeship, we can access the funding which is being | :09:50. | :09:56. | |
created three V and create a huge number of opportunities. --. I read | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
met with the Minister. He set up the Maynard review and I'm delighted the | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
Government has accepted everything one of those. I want to pay tribute | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
to both mencap and scared for the work they get as part of that to | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
help reshape some tangible opportunities. -- Scope. I want to | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
sleep to the Minister and say that I'm thankful he saw that through. We | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
touched on this but I want to urge the Minister to crack on with those | :10:26. | :10:28. | |
pilots, make a real opportunity pilots, make a real opportunity | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
because every young adult well seize that opportunity if they argued on | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
it. These are the people who, having met with hundreds of young adults | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
with a learning disability, they are desperate to be given that | :10:43. | :10:43. | |
opportunity. I want to see those opportunity. I want to see those | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
pilots and I want to see this made a priority, and, in his summing up, | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
explain where we are with that, what is the timetable and what can we do | :10:54. | :11:01. | |
to raise this with local lawyers? -- employers. Thank you. It's a great | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
opportunity to speak in this because I was a member of the build | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
community as well -- committee. I was disappointed there was not a | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
current amendment brought forward for this, at this stage, reflecting | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
any build unity, which seem to be any build unity, which seem to be | :11:18. | :11:21. | |
accepted at the time by the Minister, in broad terms, and I | :11:22. | :11:30. | |
hope... That in place to reflect some of those. And some of the | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
points being made this evening. Particularly by my honourable friend | :11:39. | :11:45. | |
on the front bench,, who has been a Geordie Borth in bringing in these | :11:46. | :11:48. | |
amendments. It is no surprise that there are no new causes at all in | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
the report stage, which is very unusual. -- it is a surprise. And | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
all the amendments and new causes were put in by my honourable friend | :11:59. | :12:03. | |
on behalf of the opposition, which is splendid and I support them but | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
it is a pricing and a bit disappointing, even with a degree of | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
agreement on the value of this legislation, on this Bill, and we | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
all know that we've got to do something about improving | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
apprenticeships and training. It is said that he had to train our own | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
rather than poking people from abroad. I think the first new clause | :12:27. | :12:36. | |
one, requiring... -- Scope. It's about the ad, completed | :12:37. | :12:44. | |
apprenticeships. -- poaching. Not just about the broader measures of | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
success. This specific quality of those apprenticeships is absolutely | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
vital to ensure that apprenticeships to reach to the development of | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
skills and long-term jobs after their completion. Those young | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
people, who come apprenticeships, have to be desirable by the | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
employers and their own employers. They have to be able to command good | :13:07. | :13:14. | |
jobs in the long and look forward to relatively high pay enhancement in | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
those jobs. I think maybe sure that the apprenticeships are quality, not | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
just in words, but actually that they can really do the things they | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
are required to do after they have qualified. It is so, so important. I | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
have to say I remember the days, long ago, when we had full | :13:36. | :13:41. | |
employment. Many decades ago. I used to teach further education during | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
that error and, in many ways, it was a better period than react now. | :13:45. | :13:51. | |
Happy for sure. Everybody who wanted a job got one. Teaching in further | :13:52. | :13:57. | |
education was a sheer joy. It has been more painful and stressful | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
since then, and less well paid. The conditions are not as good as they | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
were then I was there. That several decades ago. The early 1970s. We | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
also had large companies, large manufacturing companies mainly, also | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
the giant public utilities in giant public ownership, who employed | :14:18. | :14:20. | |
thousands of apprenticeships, apprentices each year. They had to | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
train their own and they wanted to make sure they were good at the end | :14:26. | :14:28. | |
of the day. Some of them have moved on to other jobs and crude and well | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
as well but non-US, it was beneficial both to the best | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
individuals and to our economy. -- none the less. We were training our | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
own and refilled to do that in recent times. We've left it to the | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
market, if one likes, and the market doesn't always work well in these | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
matters, it does require a degree of Government intervention. It is very | :14:55. | :14:58. | |
significant, as the Prime Minister said, using a phrase that has not | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
been used by any Government for a long time. Industrial strategy. | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
Talking about the need for industrial strategy. I absolutely | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
support that. We had a debate on industrial strategy just eight years | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
ago when the honourable member Leamington Spa let the debate and it | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
was very good that those words, I think, are significant. I think this | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
is part of that industrial strategy. We do next to reach a nice people to | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
rebuild industry because they don't produce enough any more, | :15:28. | :15:29. | |
particularly any manufacturing is sector. We do well in services, but | :15:30. | :15:36. | |
not in manufacturing. We have a trade deficit because they can't | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
produce enough and have to buy in from abroad. We have to rebuild this | :15:41. | :15:46. | |
section. Not in reinforcing manufacturing by producing efficient | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
to have a trade balance that is sensible, which we don't have any | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
moment. Apprenticeships have always been somewhat insecure in recent | :15:57. | :15:59. | |
times because companies are now smaller than a word, in general | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
terms. They are less secure because of economic crisis and indeed many | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
anecdotes I have from my own experience, just after the 2008 | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
crisis, I was being driven to Heathrow for a visit, a | :16:14. | :16:18. | |
parliamentary visit, and the driver said he had an apprenticeship. The | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
company had been met has collapsed and you can stop being a cab driver, | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
which he could have done the an apprenticeship. -- been with. Other | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
examples of small companies training apprentices who are then poached by | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
larger, a lot more financially lucrative companies, saying that in | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
the motor trade, where you have small skills companies which are | :16:46. | :16:49. | |
training people and then they are pouched by the large companies that | :16:50. | :16:56. | |
do lucrative insurance repair work, and they compare... Of course I will | :16:57. | :17:00. | |
give way. I thank the honourable gentleman again. Just another | :17:01. | :17:05. | |
viewpoint. I don't have the figures at hand but the evidence does | :17:06. | :17:12. | |
suggest that apprentices and income, they are loyal to the company more | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
than other training schemes or early jobs than any other. They changed to | :17:17. | :17:23. | |
stay in the companies that they did their apprenticeship in. I'm sure | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
the Minister's ride for the majority but looking at house prices at the | :17:30. | :17:31. | |
moment, certainly in the Luton, I moment, certainly in the Luton, I | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
know of companies which do employ apprentices, small motor repair | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
companies, and they are under pressure to get a home if they can | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
earn a feud thousand more at another large company nearby, to help them | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
get on the housing ladder, they will do that. I agree that loyalty is | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
be loyal but if the pressure, be loyal but if the pressure, | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
financial pressures on their lives are as such that they have been | :17:57. | :18:03. | |
moved, they welcome any end, move. I am going to support all the points | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
made by my honourable friend from the front bench, but particularly on | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
the need for a strategy for improving careers education. And new | :18:12. | :18:20. | |
clause four. What we have to do is make sure that, when young people | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
are at school or in education, they are aware of the knowledge range of | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
opportunities out there and they don't look at a narrow field. In the | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
Luton, have to say, a high proportion of my local young | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
students want to get into the legal profession, for example. They want | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
to be professionals. What they don't appreciate is that there are highly | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
paid, highly skilled jobs in the manufacturing industry. Vauxhall | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
Motors, which has a plan in losing, the senior executives, almost all of | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
them started as apprentices, leaving school, doing apprenticeships and | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
getting up the ladder. Eventually doing high qualifications, such as | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
HNC and HND is. Becoming highly paid people in the company. People are | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
aware of them and we have to do have careers strategies to make sure | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
every young person knows of the thousands of different drills and | :19:17. | :19:23. | |
that human life. -- HNCs and HNDs. -- roles. Or just going into a local | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
company. There are a lot of things young people can do and life can be | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
very exciting. It is very important to do something which we enjoy | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
doing. I'm very fortunate that I like politics in my early life I | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
lead a knock in parliament, where I wanted to be. I don't regret a | :19:43. | :19:49. | |
minute of it. Sometimes people aren't aware of the enormous range | :19:50. | :19:54. | |
of possibilities and alive and having a very, very powerful careers | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
advice strategy, I think, is really vital, not just for the people, | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
young people and their own lives, but for the economy. If people are | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
happy in their work, they will work better, the economy will like that | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
and he will be a much better place. I have just one more story, just to | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
say what has happened in the region, which is a tragedy. We were a town | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
which trained thousands of apprentices and I know many of them | :20:23. | :20:25. | |
personally myself. Recently I visited a small manufacturing | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
company that makes components for Formula 1, jaguar, and they couldn't | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
find one to make it. They couldn't find one from a town of over 200 | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
people that was dominated by manufacturing. Not one. It is a | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
disgrace that we have failed to gain sufficient people. I think there's | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
many other things I'm glad to say, but I could speak for an hour | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
unaided, I'm sure, but there are others who want to speak, then I | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
shall leave it there but I had the point I've made are of interest. | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy is legal. Clearly, I wasn't on the bill, but | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
clearly the Secretary for further education bill was a bill that | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
generated a lot of good debate and positive views about how we might | :21:16. | :21:21. | |
all improve, what we all want, which is the technical and vocational | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
education in our country and an improvement to apprenticeships. | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
There is no and can be no division between on that that was witnessed | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
by the contribution of the Minister and in a very good contribution of | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
my honourable friend from the front bench, and also the contributions. I | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
also wanted to just raise something which, I think set the context for | :21:43. | :21:46. | |
the Dell and really goes back to the remarks that I made to the Minister. | :21:47. | :21:53. | |
In the decades, it has been the desire of every governments, | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
whatever it has come up with, to try and do something about enhancing the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
stages and is being about apprenticeships and technical and | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
vocational education. Our country has been levelled by a culture that | :22:09. | :22:15. | |
the technical and dumb aggregation as second class in terms of | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
situation ship to academic qualifications. | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
We all say it is wrong and it is. But culturely that has not moved in | :22:24. | :22:33. | |
the last 30/40 years. And I hope the minister is right. Can I say, I want | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
him to be right in what he said, when he said this, when I said to | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
him the question, why will it be different this time to all of the | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
other times? Because every minister, whether Conservative, Labour, or | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
whoever, would have had the passion and desire to exactly as the | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
minister himself has just said. So, I hope, and I say this to him as a | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
Conservative, and me as a Labour backbencher, I hope he's right. And | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
I hope that this time it is different, because our country is | :23:07. | :23:13. | |
held back as an economy, as a power by the fact that it isn't right at | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
the moment and it is also held back by the fact that tens of thousands, | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
if not millions of our young people, millions of our families, across our | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
country, have not achieved what they should have done because of that as | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
well. And so, when we talk about | :23:32. | :23:37. | |
inequality of opportunity, and the failure of many communities to | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
advance and to progress, all of those things, part of that is | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
because of the fact that we don't value vocational education in the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
way that we should. Challenging that is what, it seems to me, is what | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
this bill committee has been about and why I wanted to come in and make | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
a small and brief contribution now. Let me say this, Mr Deputy Speaker, | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
the depth of the problem is this - how do we judge what is a good | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
school? I make no comment, other than to say this, when was the last | :24:12. | :24:17. | |
time anybody heard somebody say, I'm going to send my child to that | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
school because it's brilliant vocationally. The education at that | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
school is absolutely brilliant. The vocational qualifications, the way | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
they train them to skills, to be trained to be plumbers, builders, | :24:34. | :24:36. | |
the way they take up the opportunities that my honourable | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
friend talk about in Vauxhall. We have defence industries which are | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
crying out for engineers to do, to repair the ships, to do all of the | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
high technical skills and jobs there. There's thousands of | :24:49. | :24:54. | |
vacancies. When was the last time anybody said, I'm going to send my | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
son or daughter to that school because it is brilliant because they | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
will end up in that first-class vocational, technical job? It | :25:04. | :25:06. | |
doesn't happen. And that is a real challenge for us. As a Parliament, a | :25:07. | :25:13. | |
challenge for the Government and as for us in opposition, to work with | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
the Government to do something about that. I say these brief remarks, Mr | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
Deputy Speaker, not as a criticism, but as a challenge to us all. I tell | :25:22. | :25:32. | |
you what I think, I about dhully -- actually believe our country needs a | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
national crusade with respect to technical and vocational education. | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
It needs something which actually shakes the system up, which actually | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
says we've got a minister now who's saying these things. We've got | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
Shadow Ministerial educational minister saying the same. Let's | :25:53. | :25:59. | |
challenge our country to actually make all of this talk about the | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
importance of skills, the importance of technical education, to make that | :26:04. | :26:09. | |
a reality. If we can do that, we would improve our economy, but more | :26:10. | :26:15. | |
importantly, or just as importantly, we would also value the lawyers and | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
value the doctors and all of those things which are really important, | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
but we would actually, for the first time, in many respect, say to many | :26:26. | :26:28. | |
families to give them once again the esteem of work and to the esteem of | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
vocational education and our country would be better for it. | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
Educationally we would improve. But I tell you this, in my own view, it | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
would mean in many of our poorest communities, which it would be, but | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
in many of our communities where equality of opportunity, with | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
respect to education is a rhetorical myth rather than reality, would | :26:54. | :26:55. | |
actually be able to do something about that as well. | :26:56. | :26:59. | |
What an achievement that would be for a Parliament, let alone a | :27:00. | :27:02. | |
Government. So I wish the minister well. I thank my colleague for his | :27:03. | :27:10. | |
contribution and the contribution that everybody on the bill committee | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
has made to what I think is one of the most fundamental countries -- | :27:16. | :27:17. | |
problems that our country faces. Thank you. I rise to speak on new | :27:18. | :27:25. | |
Clause IV in technical and further education. I'm building on the words | :27:26. | :27:31. | |
of my honourable friend from Wolverhampton and South-West. As the | :27:32. | :27:34. | |
minister knows through our time spent together on the bill | :27:35. | :27:37. | |
committee, this is an issue of particular interest to me. I would | :27:38. | :27:44. | |
like to thank the minister for the courtesy what he's explaining to the | :27:45. | :27:46. | |
department what he's doing in this area and introducing me to the | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
careers and enterprise company and for his keen interest in improving | :27:51. | :27:56. | |
careers education. However, after consideration, I feel that this | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
amendment is necessary and compliments the work already under | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
way, because while there is a lot of warm words and verbal support, to | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
not include careers education provision in this legislation is an | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
enormous opportunity missed. This bill is one that will shake up the | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
technical and further educational sector considerably and accepting | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
this new clause would show how important career planning is to this | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
House and to this Government. During private meetings before the | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
committee stage of this bill, real concerns were raised with me about | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
the lack of careers provision in our colleges as it stands. It has been | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
stressed that there is such a lack of advice available at the moment | :28:40. | :28:44. | |
that without explicit legislation on careers guidance it will be nudged | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
even further towards the back of the priorities queue. With overstretched | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
resources in colleges in mind I was very disappointed to hear in at | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
least one institution a receptionist had been asked to carry out careers | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
guidance, having had no specialist qualifications or training. The | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
problems regarding lack of guidance is stark and has been brought to the | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
attention of the department by the co--chairs of the sub committee on | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
education, skills and the economy, who in a report accused the | :29:16. | :29:18. | |
Government of appearing to be burying their heads in the sand | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
while careers guidance fails young people, especially those from | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds and exacerbates the country's skill gap. | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
It seems clear that we cannot rely on warm words and reassurances | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
alone. We must have provisions in writing. In legislation. Because we | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
have an obligation to our learners. As we know, the world of work, young | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
people are entering is changing really fast. The sector and | :29:48. | :29:53. | |
apprentice start thas are learning in will have transformed eno nor | :29:54. | :29:56. | |
mousily by the time they are in their last year. The access to | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
guidance and advice shouldn't be left behind them when stepping into | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
a career. It should be more agile and responsive to the skills and | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
experience they are picking up. It is these opportunities that new | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
Clause IV would seize. The opportunity for a strategy to be | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
laid before this house, a strategy, specialised for further and | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
technical education that is on-going and gives para of -- parity of | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
esteem. Using the expertises for apprentices and technical education | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
is a huge opportunity and an opportunity too good to miss. | :30:35. | :30:43. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. My thanks to all of those who have | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
spoken here today. I don't want to, and I thank also the minister in | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
particular for confirming that new clause two, the implications of what | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
we asked for in the new clause two, will be satisfied by the Government. | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
I think that is an important concession or an important | :31:06. | :31:07. | |
confirmation, depending on how he wishes to look at it. Whatever it | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
is, we thank him for it. I wish Mr Deputy Speaker to withdraw new | :31:17. | :31:21. | |
clause one, but we will, because not least in terms of the powerful | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
speeches that my honourable friend for Gedling and others have made, it | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
really seems to us a missed opportunity that the Government is | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
not putting the strategy on the face of the bill. It is no disrespect to | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
the minister and his personal policies, but we believe that needs | :31:38. | :31:42. | |
to be embodied for the foreseeable future in the bill and on that basis | :31:43. | :31:46. | |
we will be pressing new Clause IV to a vote. | :31:47. | :31:56. | |
New clause one I leave withdrawn. We now come to new Clause IV to be | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
moved formally. Formally. The question is that new clause will be | :32:00. | :32:05. | |
read a second time. As many of that opinion say a, the contrary, no. I | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
think we'll call that the division. Division. | :32:11. | :33:18. | |
The question is new Clause IV be read a second time: As many of that | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
opinion say ayes. The Ayes 186, the Noes 274. The Ayes | :33:25. | :44:57. | |
186, the Noes 274. The Noes have it. Armlock. We know can to Amendment | :44:58. | :45:06. | |
one which it will be convenience to consider amendments to, three, 20 | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
shadow minister to move. Thank you very much. May I wish you personally | :45:14. | :45:25. | |
a happy new Year? We want those to turn to the part of the Bill which | :45:26. | :45:30. | |
is extremely important and indeed is one of the reasons why this Bill is | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
in the form that it is and I shall come onto that in a moment or two in | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
discussing Amendment to add Amendment three. First of all I want | :45:40. | :45:49. | |
to focus on the importance of clause 14 and the introduction, the welcome | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
introduction, into the Bill, by the Government of the role of the | :45:55. | :46:01. | |
education administrator. We welcome that but we want to probe in | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
particular as we did in committee how this is going to work in | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
practice. That is the purpose of Amendment one. It is extremely | :46:11. | :46:19. | |
important to remember that's the end product that we are all aiming at | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
here is to have a situation where we hope, and I believe, that the number | :46:26. | :46:33. | |
of occasions on which the detailed insolvency provisions which are laid | :46:34. | :46:36. | |
out in the second part of the Bill will be required, will be as few as | :46:37. | :46:47. | |
possible. I will come on shortly to suggest why I think they are | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
particularly necessary and some of the issues around that. But this | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
particular Amendment would ensure that an appropriate assessment is | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
made of any potential impact on students and their education if an | :47:03. | :47:05. | |
education administrator puts a further education body into | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
administration, and takes action such as transferring students to | :47:11. | :47:15. | |
another institution, or keeps an insolvent institution open for | :47:16. | :47:21. | |
existing students, the Amendment would also require the Secretary of | :47:22. | :47:26. | |
State to specify suitable bodies to perform such assessments. This | :47:27. | :47:35. | |
Amendment has been put forward very specifically at the urging of the | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
National Society of apprentices. I think it touches on an area where I | :47:44. | :47:53. | |
hope this minister and I have common ground, which is the importance of | :47:54. | :47:58. | |
understanding what the end product of this new education administrator | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
is all about, and he or she is there to provide protections and support | :48:07. | :48:12. | |
that would not be available in the context of a traditional insolvency | :48:13. | :48:18. | |
process. And that is extremely important in terms of the position | :48:19. | :48:25. | |
of young people, and particularly people who might be at university, | :48:26. | :48:32. | |
sorry, might be at college, as part of their apprenticeship, or as part | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
of other training. One of the things that the research by the National | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
Society of apprentices has shown, and I want to speak particularly | :48:45. | :48:51. | |
here, to subsection three, sorry, subsection C, D and E, of Amendment | :48:52. | :49:00. | |
to clause 14. One of the things that research shows, this was in 2014, | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
and the figure may have gone up since then, is that apprentices pay | :49:07. | :49:13. | |
an average of ?24 per week on travel. That equates to a quarter of | :49:14. | :49:19. | |
the salary of an apprentice who is earning the apprentice national | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
minimum wage and research has shown that young people were choosing to | :49:24. | :49:28. | |
do the apprenticeships they could afford to get to rather than the | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
apprenticeship they were keen to do in some cases. In light of the | :49:32. | :49:40. | |
review process in England and the creation... And we have had | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
disagreements with the Government on the review process and we will probe | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
them strongly on it, but on this occasion this is what we are | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
concerned with, the impact on those potential apprentices. The travel | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
time between provider, employer and home. We believe on the size that it | :49:59. | :50:08. | |
is important that the Institute for apprenticeships as technical | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
education does take clear and early lead role in encouraging local | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
authorities and transport companies to ensure that all young people | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
including apprentices are covered by the travel concessions. Without a | :50:21. | :50:24. | |
high-profile champion for their needs apprentices can too often be | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
excluded from such concessions, as again apprentices -- apprenticeships | :50:30. | :50:35. | |
are perceived as employment rather than education and are excluded from | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
that definition. The entitlement the Bill gives students to continue, | :50:43. | :50:50. | |
works in practice, that is the cracks. This Amendment is intended | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
to be safeguard against an intended consequences. The education | :50:54. | :51:02. | |
administrator will be given for options to support education if | :51:03. | :51:06. | |
their college becomes insolvent. These, as were discussed in | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
committee stage, includes provisions to sell assets to keep a college of | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
thought, to bring in another body to take on different functions of the | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
college, to transfer students to another college, and finally, and | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
slightly ambiguously worded, to keep the college going, until existing | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
students can finish their courses. These are all sensible options. I do | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
not think there is anybody here who would suggest that they should not | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
be pursued by the education administrator, should students | :51:37. | :51:38. | |
education be put in jeopardy by insolvency. | :51:39. | :51:44. | |
In so doing that, that is why we propose an assessment of the impact | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
that the decision will have on students and the local community. | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
And by this assessments, we hope that any negative impacts could be | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
mitigated in the appropriate way. Briefly, for example, where an | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
administrator keeps a college going for existing stuptds to finish, it | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
would be entirely understandable and possibly probable that lecturers and | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
staff at that college might look to leave. The involvement of an | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
educational administrator would be a sign of a failed college and this | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
option would mean the employer would be closing in the near future, | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
anyway. Any exodus of staff in these circumstances could have untold | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
impacts on the quality of education received. So we would want to know | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
from the minister, as students would, I am sure, what transitional | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
measures would be put in place to protect the quality of education | :52:37. | :52:40. | |
being received in a college that was being kept open only on | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
life-support? Or should the administrator decide to begin sells | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
off college assets to deal with insolvency issues, what protections | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
will there be that resources that are integral to learner services | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
will not be sold off? Computers spring to mind. | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
But the impact of selling them off could be to mean fewer resources to | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
share between remaining students at the college and negatively impact on | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
their experience. What about circumstances where there need to be | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
transferred to another college? How close to their home and their old | :53:16. | :53:21. | |
college will the new college be? How much more expensive to get them | :53:22. | :53:24. | |
there? We know that college aten doughs spend a lot of money on | :53:25. | :53:32. | |
travel. It is risking making education inaccessible for less well | :53:33. | :53:39. | |
off. What might help them aseef education at this new education | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
facility if it is higher? Would the college be able to cope with a new | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
influx of students? Some find themselves forced to travel longer | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
distances. There is no reference in this bill to how they will be | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
compensated. As I said previously merges could be harm of the the | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
social fabric and mobility of young people in rural and suburban areas. | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
The implications for them to maintain their courses, which are | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
will be significant if issues such as travel do not come into it. The | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
commissioner when giving evidence to the bill committee said that | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
provision at levels one and two needs to be as local as you can get | :54:24. | :54:28. | |
it to the learners, whether in urban or a rural area. Accepting that if | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
people don't have the money to travel they will not be able to do | :54:34. | :54:41. | |
so. It is not clear how the Government will make the student | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
receives in the college kept open and to a high quality standard. Bev | :54:45. | :54:51. | |
Robinson the principal and chief executive of my own local college on | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
Lord Sainsbury's panel said, I would wish to make sure that learning | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
within a reasonable travel to learn pattern was protected as well as | :55:01. | :55:05. | |
students. I see nothing, I am afraid, Mr Deputy Speakers A the | :55:06. | :55:08. | |
moment and little has been said at the moment where the funding to | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
support that process will come from research released in 2015 by the NUS | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
and the association of colleges, showed that only 49% of FE students, | :55:18. | :55:23. | |
virtually half of them, could always afford their travel costs. Travel | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
time for those surveyed was an average of two hour and a 48 minutes | :55:28. | :55:33. | |
a day. A distance of 11 miles. Four in ten young people were relying on | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
financial support from parents or guardians for costs. This is | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
exacerbated by a funding scheme. Even that minority of councils who | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
offered discount travel to young people are unlikely to do so now, | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
following the continuing Government cuts. This amendment would at least | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
require that such things be considered so that appropriate | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
measures be put in place. Will my friend give way? He's much more | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
familiar with the bill than I am. In terms of the clarity he seeks to | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
introduce on the face of this bill, does he share my concern, perhaps he | :56:11. | :56:13. | |
doesn't because he knows the bill better, but I cannot see what an | :56:14. | :56:18. | |
educational administrator is. I know he or she will be an officer of the | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
court and they will carry out certain functions, but we are | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
talking about the technical and Further Education Bill, training | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
essential -- is central to what we are talking about. I cannot see on | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
the face of the bill anything that says there has to be a certain | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
education for an administrator. It is a bit fuzzy. My honourable | :56:40. | :56:44. | |
friend, as usual, is per acceptive. If we had the time and if it was | :56:45. | :56:49. | |
within the scope of this particular amendment I would acquaint him with | :56:50. | :56:53. | |
the passages of the committee where we discussed this at some length. I | :56:54. | :56:59. | |
think although we have not moved more specific amendments in that | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
area I think the minister and again I think this is obviously something | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
for another place, needs to respect further as to what needs, if | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
anything needs further to be put on the face of the bill, to answer the | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
sort of questions that my honourable friend is asking. But they are | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
perfectly legitimate and really important questions. And as I say, | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
ones that we did consider in the bill committee. So, there are a | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
number of effects to the implications these administrator | :57:28. | :57:29. | |
powers may have on students. That is precisely the point of the amendment | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
and to ensure that whatever impacts these powers have in practise, our | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
are assessed within the local circumstances of the colleges in | :57:38. | :57:40. | |
which those amendments are needed. I want to now turn to amendment two. | :57:41. | :57:50. | |
And this I hope would be an amendment that the minister would | :57:51. | :57:53. | |
have sympathy with. Again if he's not happy with the structure of it | :57:54. | :57:57. | |
then perhaps that can be juggled with. This amendment would give the | :57:58. | :58:04. | |
court the power to suspend office for student, student protection | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
action for the period of insolvency in which the educational | :58:09. | :58:13. | |
administrator has responsibility for responsible for an FE body. This is | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
a clause, sorry, this is an amendment which the association of | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
colleges are particularly keen to see addressed. They are concerned | :58:23. | :58:30. | |
that the insolvency regime is being introduced at the same time, as a | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
separate protection regime takes place in higher education under the | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
control of a new office for students, which of course, Mr Deputy | :58:39. | :58:43. | |
Speaker, has been entering committee stage in the other place only today. | :58:44. | :58:48. | |
They believe and I think we have some sympathy with this, the | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
Government has missed an opportunity to introduce a joint legal regime, | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
covering both further and higher education corporations. However, we | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
are where we are, and that is the basis on which this proposal is put | :59:03. | :59:10. | |
tonight. This would mean that an amendment is needed to the TFE bill | :59:11. | :59:17. | |
to remove duplication between the HE intervention regime and the FE | :59:18. | :59:21. | |
regime because otherwise colleges and again I feel strongly about this | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
because it particularly affects my own local college, that colleges | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
that want to maintain or develop their HE provision, which is an | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
important part of the system, and which involves up to 150,000 | :59:35. | :59:39. | |
students. 1,000 of whom are at Blackpool college. As it stands we | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
have two Government bills, creating two separate control systems, with | :59:45. | :59:49. | |
two sets of obligations on colleges. Ministers will say social education | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
and the powers will only be used in exceptional cases and eve eve | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
theably colleges will have to prepare for the worst. If they have | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
higher education provision will need to boil a plate to double insulate | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
their finances to satisfy the organises they deal with. This could | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
make it more expensive to run HE provision than it needs to be. This | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
is the purpose of this amendment to conif firm the OFS regime will be | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
suspended during a special administration and I would like to | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
speak briefly to amendment three. Amendment three is talking | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
particularly about the need to ensure that staff are employed by an | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
FE college are continued to acure statutory teacher pension seem and | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
-- scheme and local pension scheme obligations during the | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
administration. This is an issue which has not simply been raised by | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
the association of colleges but also by UCU. Mr Deputy Speaker, colleges | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
employ large numbers of staff and not all of them are teachers. In | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
addition to caretakers. Catering staff and cleaners. They employ | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
learning support assistance, IT technicians, administrators and the | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
like. We made a particular point at second reading of emphasising that | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
just as with universities it's not simply the teachers and the | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
administrators and the bureaucrats. It is everybody who keeps that | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
institution going. So, it is the case with FE colleges. And we would | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
be appalled if, as a result of any of these issues, people had their | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
pension rights or their pension, their potential pension rights | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
affected in this way. So, in all, we believe that there | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
are more than 70,000 people in colleges who are not teachers and | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
who are eible in law to member of a Local Government Pension Scheme. | :01:46. | :01:48. | |
There is some evidence the bill has raised concern among those running | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
Local Government Pension Schemes and it is resulting in additional | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
financial demands on colleges. We don't think it is the Government's | :01:56. | :02:01. | |
intention to renege on debt, because it would simply pass on the koths to | :02:02. | :02:07. | |
other employers, including councils themselves. Colleges have no choice | :02:08. | :02:11. | |
about whether to offer membership. They provide access to decent | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
pensions for 70,000 people. And the purpose of this amendment is simply | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
to clarify that staff employed by an FE college continue to acure those | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
obligations and Government will ensure that any additional debt will | :02:25. | :02:33. | |
be covered. That would ensure that statutory obligations are suspended | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
but employed staff can continue to acure entitlements but does not | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
result in penalty interest, which are written into TPS and LPS rules | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
once they recommence. In case the minister thinks this is only a | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
hypothetical issue, it is worth making the point and UCU have made | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
the point, that there are already real concerns about pension scheme | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
deficits in certain colleges and that the regulations, if this issues | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
are not addressed, could cause alarm with end lenders and raise interest | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
rates and this of course would negate, or could negate, the stated | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
aim for the introduction of insolvency regulations. And that of | :03:14. | :03:22. | |
course would preclude the increased confidence in the insolvency | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
scenario of the Government and we are very keen to see. Will my friend | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
give way? Very briefly. The minister is well aware of this scenario | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
because the City of Wolverhampton college has a big pension problem. I | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
have discussed wit the minister and he's been extremely helpful in | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
trying to resolve thatfy man shall issue faced by -- that financial | :03:45. | :03:49. | |
issue faced by my local college. I am grateful for my friend for that | :03:50. | :03:55. | |
intervention. Because of course he's immediately provided a specific | :03:56. | :03:58. | |
example of precisely the issue which has led us to bring this amendment | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
forward tonight. I now need to move, Mr Deputy Speaker, to our final | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
amendment on the bill, and the one in which we will be pressing, which | :04:09. | :04:13. | |
we will be pressing to a vote. And this is an amendment which would | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
ensure that further education bodies, with a track record of | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
acuing assets publicly could not be transferred to a profit private | :04:24. | :04:29. | |
company. Mr Deputy Speaker, we had a significant discussion about this in | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
committee. And for the benefit of those who were not in committee, I | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
will try to and for the benefit of those who were in committee, I will | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
try to summarise as briefly as possible. It is the principal is | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
extraordinary important. On our side of the committee it raidses the | :04:51. | :04:54. | |
current situation with this bill raises some real significant issues | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
about what would happen to the transfer of assets. The information | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
says that assets should only be transferred to charitable bodies. It | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
is on that point that I want to focus my remarks wrsmt the bodies | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
are not charities, then it must be transferred in accord dance with the | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
charitable purpose of the trust. It leads to a list of bodies to which | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
assets could be transferred including sixth form colleges and | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
Governing bodies. Expected or transfers should be made to bodies, | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
but that is not the same as saying it is required. When colleges were | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
incorporated in 1992, it took them formally outside of the local | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
authorities and my honourable friend, the member for Luton North, | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
was very eloquent in this in committee, but we have to take into | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
account the asset base of building in many cases was build up with | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
local authorities support and funding over 20 or 30 year-period. I | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
reminded the minister on committee about my own college which he has | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
visited. He went to one of the campuses, which has buildings and | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
elements that go right back to the 1950s and the 1960s. We didn't, when | :06:08. | :06:13. | |
the building colleges for the future process took place in 2000, we did | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
not get the new college that we hoped we would get for a variety of | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
reasons as to where we were in the food chain, but nevertheless, I am | :06:24. | :06:26. | |
illustrating the point that many of the buildings we are talking about | :06:27. | :06:34. | |
have acured their estate either on a financial by sis... Will my | :06:35. | :06:37. | |
honourable friend give way? Yes. I will. | :06:38. | :06:45. | |
Would he agree that this is an issue in higher value areas, whether this | :06:46. | :06:53. | |
is public land that should be used for the common good? I thank my | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
friend for that intervention. She has a double qualification to speak | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
on it, first of all as a member of Parliament for the constituency that | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
she represents, but also she knows whereof she speaks. This issue is | :07:12. | :07:23. | |
accentuated in those sorts of areas. Money has come in over the years, | :07:24. | :07:33. | |
both pre-1982, the Labour Government introduced into thousands, money put | :07:34. | :07:39. | |
in by regional development agencies, Regional Growth Fund developments, | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
offshoots of regional and structural funding and as I have previously | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
said further education colleges also deliver higher education. If we have | :07:50. | :08:02. | |
a situation where HE provision is being delivered at a rate of 10%, | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
12%, it is important that we do not lose that situation in this | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
position. I do not want to rehearse at, we have not got time to rehearse | :08:15. | :08:18. | |
tonight, the arguments that were made in 2011, about the private | :08:19. | :08:25. | |
sector, private for-profit sector training coming in and being | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
involved with the equity funds, whose investment platforms were | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
focused. But I would say, and I think many in the sector would also | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
say, that the private equity funding sector, although it can be extremely | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
profitable and useful, is based on a relatively short-term view of | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
providing management and initial capital to buy other companies and | :08:54. | :08:55. | |
then taking them off the public share market and it is reasonable | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
for us to be concerned about what might happen in terms of disposal of | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
land with significant amounts of public assets. It is not simply | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
whether it is a good thing to transfer significant number of | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
public sector assets to eight private provider, but what the | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
guarantees are both financially, and more importantly in terms of the | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
nature of the body and the guarantees to the students, and | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
people employed there, if such organisations use the insolvency to | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
take on colleges. Ministers we talk about guarantees for staff but I'm | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
sure members will realise this does not offer protection forever and a | :09:37. | :09:42. | |
day and I have significant experience of this in my own | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
constituency in Blackpool over the years with people who have been | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
outsourced from the Civil Service and put them to other organisations | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
which are then passed on to someone else at which point automatic rights | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
and security of tenure almost became extinguished. These are the concerns | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
that we have. They are not concerns that are irrelevant. They are | :10:06. | :10:12. | |
concerns that are pragmatic and concerns of principle, and of course | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
it is not as if there has not been concerns in this area previously. | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
The December 2014 the Public Accounts Committee severely quizzed | :10:21. | :10:25. | |
officials who had responsibility about why private providers were | :10:26. | :10:33. | |
able to engage in an trammelled expansion without checks. And it was | :10:34. | :10:41. | |
said that repeatedly advice about vast sums of money going without due | :10:42. | :10:52. | |
process had been ignored. And the potential, as the former chief | :10:53. | :10:54. | |
executive of the Association of colleges said, for private | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
organisations to strip college buildings and facilities or pick | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
assets, is there. For the avoidance of doubt we are not saying we would | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
oppose any private sector takeover of a college in any circumstances, | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
we are seeing the education administrator would have to make a | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
judgment, but we are seeing without the protection of this clause, the | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
potential for it would be very high, that is why we are determined to | :11:22. | :11:31. | |
press this Amendment this evening. Thank you. I thank the honourable | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
gentleman for his amendments. I begin by discussing Amendment one | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
which affects clause 14 and I have to stress that is unlikely, in the | :11:41. | :11:48. | |
unlikely event that there is insolvency, we want to ensure that | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
disruption for students is minimised. According to the clause | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
in the Bill, they are likely to come from bigger companies and have | :12:02. | :12:07. | |
educational experience, and saw the same system that happens with | :12:08. | :12:16. | |
insolvent companies. The education minister will decide how best it | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
will be achieved. The subsection suggests ways in which this might be | :12:20. | :12:26. | |
done. The education administrator will need to consider specific | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
circumstances of insolvency and determine the most appropriate | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
approach. It is inconceivable that the education administrator would | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
draw up proposals without having had discussions with a wide range of | :12:40. | :12:44. | |
stakeholders such as the commissioner, student bodies and | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
others, and considering a wide range of issues. This will lead to | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
discussions with local authorities and key stakeholders and where | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
appropriate it may also involve a conversation with the clear levers | :12:59. | :13:08. | |
personal adviser. I undertook to consider the matter further. I hope | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
the honourable gentleman from Luton will be pleased that we are keeping | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
our promise in committee and will ensure that guidance to local | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
authority on responsibilities being introduced with the children and | :13:25. | :13:31. | |
social care act, in the event of a college insolvency affecting a young | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
person for whom they are responsible. We expect that the | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
education administrator takes account of the quality of | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
alternative provisions and if it is necessary for students to complete | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
their studies and other locations that they consider the impact of | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
travel distances. The honourable gentleman will be aware that he | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
provide funding to colleges to support disadvantaged young people | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
in addition to disadvantaged funding, some 550 million in 2016, | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
that can be used to subsidise college busses, there is also the | :14:08. | :14:14. | |
bursary fund, colleges will be able to offer this funding to eligible | :14:15. | :14:19. | |
students who transfer under a special administrative arrangement. | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
There may be scope for a scheme to be set up to cover additional travel | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
costs if they have to travel to another location. The honourable | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
gentleman for Blackpool said during committee we do not want this to | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
become a long winded and time-consuming process. I share that | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
view with them, it is in the interests of students and staff to | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
have certainty as soon as possible. Requiring formal assessments to be | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
carried out in a way proposed by the Amendment would lengthen the | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
process, reduce the administrator's distress and -- reduce the | :14:59. | :15:09. | |
administrator's discretion. I have shown these are at the front of the | :15:10. | :15:16. | |
administrator's Maine. The next Amendment, Amendment to, I | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
understand the issue about double protection. I understand why he has | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
tabled the Amendment. The Amendments are necessary because the court on | :15:27. | :15:31. | |
healing and education administration application already has discretion | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
to make any interim order, that it thinks is appropriate. It is | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
necessary with relation to the student protection plan and the | :15:41. | :15:43. | |
court has the power to do this under the Bill. In terms of the pensions | :15:44. | :15:48. | |
we have followed as far as possible the provisions of the administration | :15:49. | :15:53. | |
regime that exists for company insolvencies. We propose to adopt | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
similar provisions for college insolvency is, which will be very | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
rare indeed. As with any administration once the | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
administrator has adopted contract of staff they are personally liable | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
for the costs of those individuals such as salary and pension | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
contributions. He would only take on the appointment if they are | :16:17. | :16:18. | |
confident sufficient funds are available to meet the costs. Some | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
pension contributions will continue to be made and benefits accrue. Some | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
staff may be made redundant, whether at the start of the education | :16:28. | :16:33. | |
administration, but this will be in accordance with statutory employment | :16:34. | :16:39. | |
rights. Those staff's contribution to the pension fund will end the are | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
no longer employed but this is no difference to any other person | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
contributing to a pension scheme, but the benefits accrued prior to | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
the of employment will not be lost. In terms of the transfer issue, I | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
accept that the honourable gentleman feels very strongly about this. | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
Further education colleges are statutory organisations who can deal | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
with their own assets. A solvent college is key to transfer property | :17:10. | :17:14. | |
to any person or organisation they choose. In order to benefit from it | :17:15. | :17:18. | |
they would expect to receive value when transferring an asset to a | :17:19. | :17:21. | |
third party and in general this would mean transferring at market | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
value, although this deserves -- depends on the nature of the | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
transaction. In this case we are only talking where a college is | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
insolvent, an extreme case. What I need to make clear to the honourable | :17:36. | :17:40. | |
gentleman is that there are four vital protections to safeguard | :17:41. | :17:44. | |
assets which may well have been paid for with money from the public purse | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
that have to be dealt with because the college is insolvent. First, and | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
Mike solvent operational colleges who wish to transfer property, if | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
the administrator decides, they are restricted and who they can transfer | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
assets to. This is prescribed in secondary legislation, 27 B, higher | :18:04. | :18:11. | |
education act. In addition, transfers can be made by companies, | :18:12. | :18:16. | |
the company must be established for purposes which includes provision of | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
educational facilities. Just as with any other administrator, any chance | :18:21. | :18:27. | |
there must be with the purpose of achieving special objective and | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
minimum disruption. Creditors have a general right to challenge should | :18:33. | :18:34. | |
they consider the education administrator is selling on the | :18:35. | :18:43. | |
cheap for example. Finally the Secretary of State Orwell Welsh must | :18:44. | :18:45. | |
must approve the proposed transfer scheme, any approval will include | :18:46. | :18:54. | |
the purposes of special objective. This quadruple lock answers the | :18:55. | :19:04. | |
concerns, I believe. I hope my responses have a shoot him and the | :19:05. | :19:17. | |
House about underlying concerns -- I hope my responses have assured him | :19:18. | :19:20. | |
and the House. Thank you. I have taken note of his | :19:21. | :19:28. | |
views and the proposals he has made. It does seem to me, however, and on | :19:29. | :19:34. | |
that basis, we are prepared to withdraw Amendment one, on Amendment | :19:35. | :19:46. | |
to an Amendment three, I again have heard the reassurance that he has | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
given. I think that when this legislation reaches the other place | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
there needs to be further examination of the issues around the | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
pension schemes. These are important issues. I am not entirely convinced | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
that the assurances which I should have been made in good faith will | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
actually do the business. As regards amendments 22, I thank the Minister | :20:11. | :20:19. | |
for his explanation about what he described as the quadruple lock, but | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
I am afraid, not least because of past practice, we have to plan in | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
this Bill not for the best circumstances but for the worse. It | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
is an important issue of public policy and on that basis we do wish | :20:36. | :20:43. | |
to press amendments 22 to the vote. Is it your pleasure that Amendment | :20:44. | :20:56. | |
one be withdrawn? Aye. Amendments 20 to be made, As many of that opinion | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
say Aye. . Division. Clear that lobbies. | :21:02. | :22:03. | |
Amendment be of made, to the contrary ayes... And for the nose is | :22:04. | :22:12. | |
Mark Spencer and Graham Stuart. Order! The ayes to the right 183. | :22:13. | :32:49. | |
The Noes to the left, 278. The ayes to the right, 183. The Noes | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
to the left, 278. The Noes have it, the Noes have it. Unlock. | :32:56. | :33:03. | |
Order! Under the order of the House, 14th November, 2016, I must put the | :33:04. | :33:07. | |
question necessary to bring conclusion to the proceedings. | :33:08. | :33:13. | |
Consideration has been completed. I will now suspend the House for more, | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
no more than five minutes in order toation a decision about this. The | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
division bells will be rung two minutes before the House resumes. | :33:23. | :33:28. | |
The Government will be tabling the appropriate consent movement, copies | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
of which will be shortly available in the vault office and will be | :33:32. | :33:34. | |
distributed by the door keepers. Thank you. | :33:35. | :37:49. | |
Order. I can inform the House of my decision. The purpose of standing | :37:50. | :38:03. | |
order 83, I have certified that clause to - 38, and schedules 2-4, | :38:04. | :38:10. | |
to the -- to the Technical and Further Education Bill, relating | :38:11. | :38:13. | |
exclusively to England and Wales, and I have certified that clause one | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
and Schedule one of the Technical and Further Education Bill is | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
relating exclusively to England and within devolved legislation | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
competence. Copies of my certificates are available in the | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
vote office. Understanding order 83 consent motions are required for the | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
Bill to proceed, does the Minister intend to move consent motions? No, | :38:39. | :38:46. | |
it'll have to come after we have gone through. Standing order 83, | :38:47. | :38:52. | |
will resolve itself into legislation of the grand committee and therefore | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
into legislative committee. Order. It comes afterwards. We are going to | :39:00. | :39:00. | |
go through this. Order. I remind honourable members | :39:01. | :39:25. | |
that if there are divisions only members representing constituencies | :39:26. | :39:28. | |
in England and Wales may vote on the consent motion for England and Wales | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
and only those visiting constituencies in England may vote | :39:32. | :39:40. | |
on goals for England. I call the Minister to move the consent motion | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
for England and Wales only. The question is that the legislation | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
grand committee of England and Wales consents to clause 2-38 of, and | :39:51. | :39:55. | |
schedules 2-4, of the Technical and Further Education Bill. As many as | :39:56. | :40:11. | |
are of the opinion say Aye. Aye. The contrary No.. The Ayes habit. The | :40:12. | :40:22. | |
legislative can't committee consents to clause one of and Schedule one to | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
the Technical and Further Education Bill, As many as are of the opinion | :40:28. | :40:35. | |
say Aye. The contrary, No.. The Ayes habit. -- have it. I beg to report | :40:36. | :41:01. | |
that the legislative gland... Order. I beg to report that the legislative | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
grand committee in England and Wales has consented to clause is 2-38, and | :41:07. | :41:12. | |
schedules 2-4, of Technical and Further Education Bill. The | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
legislative grand committee England has consented to clause one of and | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
Schedule one of Technical and Further Education Bill. Point of | :41:23. | :41:30. | |
order. Thank you. I am sure the House was entertained by that fast | :41:31. | :41:34. | |
that we just witnessed, but I hope that you link that adjournment you | :41:35. | :41:39. | |
had the opportunity to take advantage of the facilities, get | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
yourself a nice cup of tea, because it was a pointless waste of time. | :41:43. | :41:47. | |
Because of the way this motion has been designed and the lack of time | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
available it has not been possible to adjourn to the legislative grand | :41:52. | :41:57. | |
committee to consider these important measures. Given that | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
English votes for English laws is supposed to be paramount, as it's | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
not disappointing that English members have not had the opportunity | :42:05. | :42:13. | |
to lend the English... Order. It is not a point of order. The debate | :42:14. | :42:16. | |
took place because we thought it was important to have a special debate | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
on health as well. The House agreed to the rules of the House, the rules | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
have now been applied. Thank you for raising the point of order. It is on | :42:28. | :42:32. | |
the record. The bottom line is, this is what the House has chosen, that | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
is the end of that. Right. Third reading. Time for a cup of tea. | :42:40. | :42:48. | |
Order. If you have got a problem do it through the usual channels and | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
the proper channels, it was not a point of order, you know it, that is | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
why you raised it. The bottom line, if you do not like it, let the House | :42:57. | :43:03. | |
get on with the business. Minister to move third reading. Thank you. I | :43:04. | :43:11. | |
beg to move that the Bill now be read a third time. I want to give | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
special thanks to all the individuals who shared their time | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
and knowledge during the passage of the Bill through the House, the | :43:20. | :43:25. | |
officials who worked so hard to bring it to parliament, and those | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
providing written and oral evidence, and they want to thank members of | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
the committee for the diligent approach and consideration of the | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
practical applications of the Bill, and to those members who have | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
spoken. I am clear about the priorities that we want to see in | :43:45. | :43:49. | |
apprenticeships, further education and skills, creating a ladder of | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
opportunity for all, a transformation of prestige and | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
culture, widespread high-quality provision, a system that addresses | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
our skills needs, job security, social justice, prosperity. This | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
Bill seeks to build those priorities and to our system, bringing to life | :44:07. | :44:13. | |
the reforms needed to ensure that we have a skills, education sector that | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
rivals the best in the world. For too long technical education has | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
been overly complex, overlooked, and values. Putting employers at the | :44:24. | :44:30. | |
heart of these changes, and as recommended by Lord Sainsbury's | :44:31. | :44:35. | |
independent report, we can provide a clear route to employment for our | :44:36. | :44:39. | |
young people. The changes in this Bill will support the achievements | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
of those young people, from difficult backgrounds, such as those | :44:45. | :44:46. | |
with special educational needs or disability, and referring to what | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
the honourable friend for Swindon said earlier, we are doing a lot to | :44:53. | :45:01. | |
implement. We are doing a lot to help apprentices with mental health | :45:02. | :45:08. | |
difficulties and apprentices with severe hearing problems will be able | :45:09. | :45:19. | |
to do sign language. 23% of those who access technical education which | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
will have some form of special educational needs, compared to 7% of | :45:26. | :45:32. | |
those taking level three, these measures in this Bill will drive up | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
the productivity in our country, turning us into an apprenticeship | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
nation providing the skills we need for our country to thrive. That is | :45:42. | :45:47. | |
why the CBI has said that businesses have long wanted a vocational route | :45:48. | :45:54. | |
so this is a step forward. Thank you for giving way. I thank him for the | :45:55. | :45:59. | |
work he has been doing taking forward this Bill. I commend him. | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
Does he agree that one of the most important factors is engaging | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
businesses in these apprenticeships and making the routes to skills more | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
relevant for business. It will not only address productivity | :46:14. | :46:15. | |
challenges, but improved life chances of the people involved. My | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
honourable friend, and I thank you for his work on the committee, is | :46:21. | :46:25. | |
correct. That is widely introduced the apprentice levy, to change | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
behaviours, to get businesses involved in supporting | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
apprenticeships. That is we created the panels. That is why we are | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
putting and financial incentives to businesses and particularly small | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
businesses, to ensure that they higher apprentices. This Bill also | :46:43. | :46:50. | |
introduces an insolvency regime for the further education sector that | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
will end that unlikely events provide protection for learners to | :46:55. | :46:57. | |
minimise as far as possible disruption to their studies. And | :46:58. | :47:05. | |
offering certainty to creditors. We heard from those who supported the | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
insolvency regime and the protections it includes for | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
learners. While there were issues, many spoke in favour of the clarity. | :47:14. | :47:23. | |
One company said they are keen to lend more into the sector. On | :47:24. | :47:34. | |
insolvency he will remember in committee I suggested that all | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
colleges should have both within management and governorship, members | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
with financial skills, professionally qualified, so that at | :47:44. | :47:50. | |
least we have skilled eyes looking at finances so that the stakes are | :47:51. | :47:57. | |
not made internally. I accept the premise of the question. I would not | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
want to put a straitjacket on the colleges. It was acknowledged by the | :48:02. | :48:09. | |
principal of a college that you may need different things for different | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
colleges but this should be as much financial expertise as possible, | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
where there is real financial leadership, those colleges are | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
always in good financial health. We forecast that we will have spent a | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
total of 140 million propping up colleges facing extreme financial | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
difficulties by March 2000 17. That's money that should have been | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
spent on education and training priorities. Whilst we envisage that | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
only a small number of colleges will find themselves insolvent, providing | :48:42. | :48:44. | |
protection from learners and clarity from creditors is a crucial part of | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
what we are trying to do, and our responsibility to support the | :48:51. | :48:55. | |
sector. Since the committee we have been in a position to publish the | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
consultation. Following conversations about the importance | :49:03. | :49:04. | |
of incorporating the views of students in the running of the | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
institute, it comes as no surprise that this sets out the firm | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
expectation that the institute will establish an apprentice panel, by | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
April this year, reporting directly to the board, ensuring that the | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
learner voice, the apprentice voice, is that the heart of the Institute. | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
I am glad that the honourable gentleman is encouraged by our | :49:26. | :49:32. | |
approach on this. Before the Institute is operational in April we | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
want to publish the consultation for the Institute shall set out more | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
detail about how it intends to carry out its functions. On the insolvency | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
elements of the Bill we discussed and committee the protections given | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
to students with a special objective and the possible ways the education | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
administrator could ensure that disruption to studies is avoided or | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
minimised. In particular we discussed whether the particular | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
account the administrator must have should be extended to other groups. | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
I recognise the importance of taking into account the needs of Kier | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
leaders and that they may need additional Pastoral support should | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
the college ever be subject to insolvency. Such support is best | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
provided to each individual by the local authority, should an | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
insolvency occur and we will take these steps, to ensure that the | :50:29. | :50:34. | |
guidance we produce for local authorities on their corporate | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
parenting responsibilities include advice in the event that the young | :50:40. | :50:44. | |
person they are responsible for attend colleges that enter | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
educational administration. There is much to be proud of about our | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
current further education. 71% of these colleges are good too | :50:57. | :51:01. | |
outstanding. More than 50% are in good financial health. The | :51:02. | :51:05. | |
proportion of 16 - 18-year-olds taking up apprenticeships is at a | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
record high. Reforms made following the 2011 review. 88% of students | :51:12. | :51:19. | |
were in a sustained education destination. High-quality further | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
education can have a transformative impact on young people. That is why | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
we have announced as part of the Spending Review to protect 16-19 | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
national base rate of ?4000 per student for the generation of this | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
Parliament and by 2020 if we include the adult education budget, the 19 | :51:43. | :51:46. | |
plus apprenticeship and, more funding will be available to support | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
adults further education participation than at any time in | :51:51. | :51:51. | |
England's history. This will build on the key | :51:52. | :52:02. | |
priorities, enabling students to make better decisions about their | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
future to secure their future prosperity that of our nation. In my | :52:07. | :52:16. | |
constituency, we are very fortunate in having a sixth form college which | :52:17. | :52:20. | |
has been short listed in the six best colleges in the country for the | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
times award. The one apprenticeship courses but there are concerns they | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
cannot get enough students to apply for some of the business admin | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
courses, and there is a real demand from business but those students yet | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
there are loads of apprenticeships doing courses were business does not | :52:39. | :52:42. | |
happen as jobs for them. Would he agree with me that provisions in | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
this bill to develop that synergy between education, apprenticeships | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
and business are welcome and are absolutely vital in addressing the | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
school shortage in this country? I thank my honourable friend for that. | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
She is absolutely right. Everything we are doing, this bill, the | :53:05. | :53:13. | |
apprentice Levy, the drive up of standards, the encouragement of | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
apprenticeships, the money, 2.5 billion doubled by 2020, they are | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
designed to do exactly that and solve the problems she has talked | :53:22. | :53:31. | |
about. Mr Speaker, the OECD has said the UK has a promising plan to | :53:32. | :53:34. | |
advanced technical education from a last resort to a first choice. | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
Colleges have also spoken highly of the plan, including the principle of | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
my own college, Harlow. She said, we're not just about courses but | :53:46. | :53:50. | |
grit. We believe any reform that brings us closer to employees mean | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
our students gain higher skills and better jobs. This bill is a once | :53:54. | :54:01. | |
your bill. It does what it says on the tin. It transformed the prestige | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
and quality of apprentices, addresses the skills deficit, | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
protect students in the event the colleges face extreme financial | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
difficulty and ensures the most disadvantaged are able to climb the | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
ladder of opportunity. The bill understands the Prime Minister's | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
commitment to a country that works for everyone and I commend the bill | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
to the House. The question is that the bill now be read at the time. | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
Can I associate myself with the comments that the Minister made, | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
giving thanks to the officials, all the members of the committee? And | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
particularly my own colleagues on our side, who did sterling work in | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
supporting us on the front bench. Can I also particularly commend the | :54:52. | :54:54. | |
support that the public bill committee have given to us? You will | :54:55. | :55:01. | |
know the role of the opposition in challenging government on these | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
matters is somehow equivalent to that of David and Goliath. We | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
occasionally get a few slingshots in. I am grateful that the | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
slingshots on this occasion had not incapacitated the minister | :55:17. | :55:18. | |
concerned. This is an important bill. It has important provisions in | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
it, and that is why we have not opposed it, either at second or | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
third reading tonight. However, that does not mean to say that we will | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
not continue to have profound concerns about the implementation | :55:34. | :55:39. | |
and process and progress of that. It was indicative in the excellent | :55:40. | :55:43. | |
although relatively truncated debate that we had on the amendments, | :55:44. | :55:48. | |
whether we're talking about the contributions from my honourable | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
friends. My honourable friend is still here. Might honourable friend | :55:55. | :56:04. | |
who gave an inspiring speech and my honourable and relatively new front | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
of the House, all of them are talking about practical issues in | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
terms of implementation. It is practical issues of implementation | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
that we still have real concerns about. It is not just a matter of | :56:19. | :56:27. | |
Ofcom yearly that we have concerns. For so long and too late, there were | :56:28. | :56:32. | |
no links between higher education and further education in the way in | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
which the bill was brought forward. Perhaps more importantly, and I | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
really would ask ministers to reflect upon this, we have had a | :56:41. | :56:46. | |
spirited discussion this afternoon about whether we need to have a | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
strategy for careers advice on the face of the bill. We still believe | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
we do have and we believe that the Minister has missed a trick in that | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
respect. We think it would have entrenched his position for the | :56:59. | :57:03. | |
careers advice and not diminished it. But the broader issue of course | :57:04. | :57:07. | |
is that so much of the what the Minister has talked about and what | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
we would all like to see is not simply an issue for DfEE. If we want | :57:12. | :57:18. | |
to deliver traineeships, which I know he is passionate about, we have | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
got to get structures and links between the DfEE and DWP to come the | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
concordance of it some issues. If we wanted to live the careers advice, | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
there has to be a similar engagement and a balancing act with the DWP. | :57:38. | :57:45. | |
These things are not things that should be left in that particular | :57:46. | :57:50. | |
box. The situation for apprentices is not one, and I pay tribute to the | :57:51. | :57:57. | |
Minister for the passion he has shown for apprenticeships, but they | :57:58. | :58:03. | |
are still handicapped by a number of things which the government has yet | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
to prove its bone fide on. That includes issues around the GCSE | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
situation in English and maths. I have heard encouraging words on that | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
but we have not nailed this issue down, and that will not go away | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
unless there is a satisfactory solution to the continual repeat and | :58:23. | :58:30. | |
soul destroying process of retakes in GCSEs. The other point of course | :58:31. | :58:36. | |
that needs to be made is that apprentices have decided to do what | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
they want to do, they do not just work or exist in a vacuum. That is | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
why it was ruled to be out of the scope of this bill but it is still | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
an important issue. There were issues around how apprentice | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
families are supported in terms of child benefit and other issues. They | :58:55. | :59:01. | |
need to be looked at not within the minister's and Secretary of State's | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
department, but other departments as well because of the boys, they will | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
be a real issue problem. It was mentioned in passenger the issues | :59:10. | :59:15. | |
around evolution, and I do not want to go much further on that tonight, | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
but I think it is something the government needs to think very | :59:22. | :59:24. | |
clearly about. The government is going ahead with the Devo Max | :59:25. | :59:32. | |
process and yet we have a bill here and structures within that bill that | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
do not reflect what the reality will be of the delivery of adult | :59:37. | :59:43. | |
education and possibly apprenticeships. Personally, it is | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
not seem to me in the long term that you can have the proper skills | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
strategy on a localised basis without taking apprenticeships into | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
account as well as adult education. There has been no addressing a this | :59:56. | :00:03. | |
bill. The issue of insolvencies, the Minister has spoken about that, I | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
associate myself with what he said about that being a minority issue. | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
But it is worth remembering the context in which this comes, it is a | :00:13. | :00:19. | |
profound period of funding cuts and everything that goes with it. And | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
that is something that the government needs to address. That is | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
the context they have decided to introduce the bill. I would also | :00:29. | :00:34. | |
say, in passing, and the comments the Minister made about careers | :00:35. | :00:40. | |
advice, trouble supporting everything else, that if the | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
government had taken up our proposals, perhaps we would have had | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
a much quicker and speedier process in that respect. I want to return | :00:50. | :00:58. | |
finally to this issue of how we actually delivering this and the | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
timescale involved. It is three months until the apprenticeship levy | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
funding kicks in. We still do not know who the new chief executive | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
will be, we do not know about the board, we have had some progress on | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
these issues today, we are told that example B skills funding agency will | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
stay in charge of the new register of apprentices. The Minister will | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
have seen the comments made in the last couple of days on this. There | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
is genuine bewilderment out there as to why it is not of course which is | :01:32. | :01:40. | |
administering the apprenticeship assessment organisations. Is the | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
real reason they are doing it that they are basically civil servants | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
and it would give every reserve part to ministers to micromanage? That is | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
not question of him but one of his successors. Those are really | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
important issues. They will need to be reflected on in the Other Place. | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
What I would say is this, there were two macro key issues that still | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
remain. Is the funding and staffing numbers dragged out of the | :02:09. | :02:16. | |
government going to be adequate for these responsibilities? I would say | :02:17. | :02:24. | |
doubtful at this stage. And how an's length or genuinely independent of | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
judgment for the new institute be? These are not just tech issues, | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
these are issues which if not resolved properly or not gain the | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
full hearted consent of the stakeholders and providers and all | :02:39. | :02:42. | |
the people that the Minister needs and we all need to get those targets | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
met and to get his aspirations and my aspirations for apprenticeships | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
to be a reality. The question is that the bill we now read a third | :02:57. | :03:02. | |
time. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I | :03:03. | :03:13. | |
think the eyes have it. The question is as on the order paper. As many as | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
habit. We come now to the adjournment. I beg to move that this | :03:24. | :03:32. | |
House do now adjourned. Nick Dakin. I would first like to pay tribute to | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
all those working in sixth form education for the fantastic but they | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
do on but half of our young people and country. In particular, I would | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
like to take the opportunity to praise the two excellent colleges | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
that serve young people in north Lincolnshire. Having led John | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
Leggett is principal before being elected to this House, I know how | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
important this phase of education is in transforming life opportunities. | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
I also know that, since I stood down as principal, the challenges facing | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
those colleges has been immense. Three direct cuts were imposed on | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
16-18 funding in the last Parliament while 5-16 funding was protected. | :04:16. | :04:22. | |
13.6% cuts, colleges now face a further 8% erosion of the current | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
national funding rate over the remainder of this Parliament due to | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
inflation and there are further pressures from increased employer | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
pension and national insurance costs. The average funding for | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
students and sixth forms, schools and academies is now ?4583, 20% less | :04:39. | :04:51. | |
than the funding received to educate each 11-16 -year-old and 47% less | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
than the average university tuition fee. I ask the Minister how, in | :04:54. | :05:02. | |
order logic, how it can be cheaper to educate a 16-18 -year-olds | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
compared to A15 -year-old or 19-year-old? The government claims | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
it has provided funds for every full-time student to do a full | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
timetable of courses but it has not published any research into | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
sufficiency of funding provided to educate 16-18 -year-olds. The | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
government does not know how much it costs to do a full timetable of | :05:27. | :05:34. | |
courses. I congratulate my honourable friend in securing this | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
debate and use the right person with his track record to be leading it. I | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
suspect I will be mentioning Lowestoft sixth form college, like a | :05:44. | :05:52. | |
lot of colleagues. It is the underfunded, unsung heroes of | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
British education system and with the right resources, their key role | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
in addressing this country's productivity gap. The honourable | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
member is right to praise Lowestoft College. It does a fantastic job on | :06:07. | :06:11. | |
but half of the young people that the educate. He is also right to say | :06:12. | :06:15. | |
they need to be properly funded to ensure they continue to do that very | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
good job into the future. The National funding rate, currently | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
?4000 for 16 and 17-year-olds, and ?3300 for 18-year-olds, is | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
calculated by taking the settlement derived by the DWP and dividing it | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
by the number of students. It is no more sophisticated than that. In the | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
independent sector, sixth form these are higher than secondary fees to | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
reflect the actual cost of delivery for this age group. | :06:48. | :08:19. | |
It is very of this area that those students who might not excel | :08:20. | :08:31. | |
academically could excel. May there not be spikes in young people's | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
mental health if we do not enable them to do these more rounded | :08:37. | :08:45. | |
courses which is so beneficial. The honourable friend is absolutely | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
right in highlighting the fact that certain elements of the curriculum | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
are under threat when there is such pressure on funding in this way and | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
enrichment activities are one of those many activities which had been | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
under threat over the last six years. There has been a dramatic | :09:04. | :09:10. | |
collapse in funding which has an impact on the education. As someone | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
who has managed resources, I know there are only a small number of | :09:15. | :09:18. | |
variables to play with when you face significant funding cuts, as the | :09:19. | :09:25. | |
sector has since 2010. Alongside the usual good management things around | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
BackOffice, procurement, charges, efficiencies and so on, there are a | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
limited number of options. You can increase shall teaching staff | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
contact time, you can reduce York student contact time, increase class | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
sizes. In reality, you have to do all of those things to make things | :09:46. | :09:53. | |
hang together. He is making an incredibly powerful case. On that | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
issue, would he agree with me their sixth form colleges are cruelly | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
treated? Unlike schools and academies, they cannot cross | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
subsidise from the morgue generous funding available for schools. At | :10:09. | :10:15. | |
the very same time they are the most efficient, they are the most | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
underfunded section of the higher education area. My honourable friend | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
is right to point to the performance of sixth form colleges but also the | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
pressure on the funding of sixth form colleges in particular. The | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
funding of 16-18 -year-olds is not just affecting sixth form colleges | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
but schools, sixth forms and academies sixth forms as well. | :10:39. | :10:47. | |
These are the typical ways these have altered since 2010. In 2010 | :10:48. | :11:04. | |
most level three students, progressing to courses in year two. | :11:05. | :11:11. | |
In most cases, the enrichment has gone. Tutorial has shrunk. General | :11:12. | :11:18. | |
studies has disappeared. Number of advanced level courses taken note is | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
normally three in 40 years. This leads to significantly lower student | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
contact time. I know from experience that there is a direct correlation | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
between contact time and achievement particularly from students who have | :11:34. | :11:43. | |
struggled to achieve at 16. My north Lincolnshire neighbour, thank you | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
for giving way. Congratulations on securing this debate. He will know | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
that his neighbouring constituency, being a coastal community, has | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
problems with social mobility. Will he shared with me the hope that the | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
Minister in his response will indicate the Government's continuing | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
support for sixth form colleges such as that in Grimsby? I thank my | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
honourable neighbour for his contribution. All four Humber sixth | :12:14. | :12:25. | |
form colleges are high performing. I am sure the Minister is listening | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
carefully. I am sure he will respond and give us all hope for a very rosy | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
future when he comes to speak later in the debate. The impact on | :12:35. | :12:38. | |
students has been significant. The sixth form college associations | :12:39. | :12:46. | |
survey showed that this is an increasingly narrow and part-time | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
experience. Colleges have dropped courses as a result of cost | :12:53. | :12:58. | |
increases. 39% have dropped courses in modern foreign languages. That | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
majority have reduced or removed extracurricular activities including | :13:02. | :13:10. | |
music, drama, sport and languages. Worryingly, 64% do not believe the | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
funding that they will receive next year will be sufficient to support | :13:16. | :13:20. | |
students that are educationally or economic lead disadvantage, the very | :13:21. | :13:25. | |
point that my neighbour was making. I thank my honourable friend for | :13:26. | :13:30. | |
giving way. As has been mentioned, the college in my constituency has | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
experienced significant funding cuts to the point where it has lost | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
around ?1 million per year. The impact of that has been a reduction | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
in courses. Does my honourable friend think that also have an | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
impact when it comes to students looking to choose a variety of HE | :13:48. | :13:59. | |
courses? Absolutely, there is an impact on progression into higher | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
education, particularly in courses like modern foreign languages, and | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
also concerning the end other courses. Today it is no 15-17 hours | :14:09. | :14:17. | |
of weekly tuition and support has become the norm for sixth form | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
students in England. This would be considered part-time study in most | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
national education systems. Research commissioned by sixth form college | :14:27. | :14:33. | |
association describes sixth form education in England as uniquely | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
narrow and short compared to the model adopted in Shanghai, | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
Singapore, Sweden and elsewhere. In Shanghai, the upper secondary | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
curriculum is based on it fundamental subjects. In addition | :14:48. | :14:56. | |
there are extended subjects and activities that allow for greater | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
specialisation or new or collective forms of learning, finally there are | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
research-based subjects that take two hours per week. Overall a total | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
of 35 lessons per week plus one extra hour per day for meetings or | :15:10. | :15:18. | |
physical exercise. Students receive at least 30 hours per week of | :15:19. | :15:25. | |
tuition. I will give way. I want to thank the honourable member for | :15:26. | :15:35. | |
giving way. I am proud to have two colleges in my constituency. One | :15:36. | :15:44. | |
college was celebrating 60 students getting Duke of Edinburgh awards and | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
that another student 84 -- at another college 85% went on to | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
university. But there are huge challenges, does he agree there | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
should be a review on funding to tackle the realistic cost of | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
providing this well rounded range of subjects so that we can compete | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
internationally? I welcome those comments. He is on the money, | :16:11. | :16:17. | |
literally and metaphorically. The Minister needs to take away one of | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
the issues is to review the funding and go back to check the resourcing | :16:23. | :16:29. | |
of fact well rounded education that we want to see. The reason for | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
making this international comparison is to say, this is what is being | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
invested in other high performing systems, if we want to compete | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
effectively with those high performing systems, we need to be | :16:44. | :16:46. | |
willing to look at what we are doing in a self-critical way and set out | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
our stock accordingly and I am sure that is what the Minister will want | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
to do when he speaks later. Look at Singapore, upper secondary | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
curriculum is based on core examination subjects, elective | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
examinations, and compulsory non-examination subjects. Core | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
examination subjects studied for eight hours per week. Students | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
choose CD or for elective subjects and study each for 4-6 hours per | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
week. Assembly, physical education, character development, take up to | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
four hours per week. Students receive up to 27 hours tuition and | :17:27. | :17:34. | |
support, 32% for those taking for subjects. Duration is two years or | :17:35. | :17:38. | |
three years. The European comparison, Sweden, upper secondary | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
education is structured primarily through three year national | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
programmes, each programme covers a series of foundation subjects, | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
English, history, mathematics, science, social studies, Swedish, | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
religion, in addition a number of subjects specific to a given | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
programme are chosen, therefore students receive 19 hours tuition | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
per week, but crucially this entitlement is for three years | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
rather than two. The Institute of education concludes its report by | :18:12. | :18:18. | |
describing the English model as low hours and short duration. Students | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
and other leading education systems receive more tuition time, studied | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
more subjects, and in some cases can benefit from a three-year programme | :18:29. | :18:31. | |
of study rather than two. I give way. I congratulate the | :18:32. | :18:38. | |
honourable gentleman in bringing this issue forward. This has been | :18:39. | :18:45. | |
raised in my constituency by a principle who has felt the problem | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
with enrichment, the narrowing of education, the problems of | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
efficiency, at the heart of children's education, and the impact | :18:56. | :19:00. | |
internationally. With the honourable gentleman agree the potential impact | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
of the Government was to look at this on our universities, the impact | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
of picking up the narrow education, the impact of universities having to | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
pick up the pieces if we are to compete internationally? In some | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
ways this reinforces the point made earlier. The system describes... | :19:21. | :19:39. | |
Students in England by contrast with those elsewhere in the world, | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
students in England receive half as much tuition time and are following | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
a three subject diet. In addition the funding cut for 18-year-old | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
students has created a financial disincentive for schools and | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
colleges to offer a third year to complete sixth form studies, and | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
these are very young people who need additional support and time. The | :20:02. | :20:07. | |
Institute also contrasted the narrowing of the sixth form | :20:08. | :20:11. | |
curriculum and England's compute to the model of international | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
competitors. They said unlike other national systems where the amount of | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
tuition increases in upper secondary education, when compared with the | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
lower secondary phase, the English experience is the opposite. The | :20:26. | :20:28. | |
sharp reduction in the number of subjects studied post-16, an average | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
of four subjects, no reducing to three, compared to 316, ten or more, | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
appears to represent sudden movement to a part-time curriculum. | :20:41. | :20:49. | |
Bizarrely, despite these huge pressures on mainstream 16-18, since | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
2010, the Government has enabled to spend money on unproven, untested | :20:53. | :20:59. | |
new and different types of provision for 16-18 -year-olds. This is money | :21:00. | :21:02. | |
that could have been spent on mainstream students and I believe it | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
has been an unwise indulgence in what I would say as cortical | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
peccadilloes at a time when there is a contraction in both the population | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
and budgets. 169 new academy and maintained sixth form work opens | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
between 2010-2015, total number of students remains static. Curiously | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
the Department for Education offers little. The question is that the | :21:35. | :21:47. | |
House do know I'd turn. -- does no adjourn. The Department for | :21:48. | :21:54. | |
Education offers little in the way of practical advice to make school | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
sixth forms work and has not researched the effectiveness of | :22:00. | :22:08. | |
these reforms. In March 2016 ministers, and I welcome the fact | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
that ministers introduced five new tests to ensure that new sixth forms | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
are viable, but this is a limited step because it does not cover the | :22:18. | :22:21. | |
sixth forms that are already open. There is no small institutions with | :22:22. | :22:31. | |
180, in rolling fewer than 100 students. That is emerging evidence | :22:32. | :22:36. | |
that some of the performance is not what we would hope for. Meanwhile | :22:37. | :22:42. | |
university technical colleges have struggled to achieve viability and a | :22:43. | :22:46. | |
system built around exams and transfer at age 16 and six articles | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
and one did not open as planned. Sensible policy would be to review | :22:54. | :22:59. | |
sixth form which are particularly small or underperforming at a time | :23:00. | :23:01. | |
when money is short. Ashton sixth form college would want | :23:02. | :23:23. | |
to be mentioned. Would he agree that, where demand does exist, that | :23:24. | :23:31. | |
can only be met through a school academy or free school sick form | :23:32. | :23:41. | |
provision being created? I think my honourable friend makes a good | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
point. The Minister is listening carefully and will take that point | :23:46. | :23:48. | |
on board along with the other points the honourable members have made. In | :23:49. | :23:53. | |
conclusion, I would like to pose a few questions to the Minister. Why | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
are sixth formers in England only funded to receive half of the | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
tuition time and support as sick form is in Shanghai, Singapore and | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
other leading education systems? Why are they facing a standard diet of | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
just three advanced level subjects while another international systems, | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
sixth formers can study eight or nine? I think it is very good to | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
have the Secretary of State educated in the comprehensive system who | :24:27. | :24:29. | |
attended a comprehensive college. That is the first I welcome. She | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
will be well aware than 16-18 -year-olds choose to study in | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
colleges while less choose to study in schools. All are affected by the | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
squeeze on funding for their age group. Will the Secretary of State | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
move away from funding sixth formers based on an arbitrator funding rate | :24:51. | :24:56. | |
and review funding to ensure it is linked to the realistic costs of | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
delivering a rounded, high-quality curriculum? For the Secretary of | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
State agree to work with the sixth form College association in | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
conducting this review, building on the current evidence base? Finally, | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
in the state sector, education funding decreases at the age of 16 | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
to an average of ?4583 per student per year. In the independent sector, | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
school fees increase at the age of 16 to an average of ?15,333 per | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
student per year. What does the Minister think are the implications | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
of this for social mobility? On the day the Prime Minister has made an | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
important speech on this matter, sounds to me like the sort of | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
everyday injustice that she would be keen to tackle in her desire to | :25:50. | :26:00. | |
build a shared society. Can I start by adding to the adulation of the | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
House to the honourable member for Scunthorpe? My congratulations on | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
securing this debate, ensuring that high-quality post-16 education is a | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
priority for the government and the country. We recognise the | :26:18. | :26:20. | |
contribution of the dedicated staff working in all types of post-16 | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
education and the hard work of students. A record proportion of | :26:27. | :26:31. | |
young people are now participating in education, training or | :26:32. | :26:34. | |
apprenticeships. I can give my honourable friend and the honourable | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
member for Grimsby the assurance that the government does support | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
sixth form colleges, including the college mentioned by my honourable | :26:45. | :26:53. | |
friend. Education and training in England is widely respected around | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
the world but we are determined to make further improvements to ensure | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
that 16-19 -year-olds are ready for the demands of the workplace, either | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
by moving directly into school employment or continuing to higher | :27:08. | :27:11. | |
education. We are reforming academic and technical education for those | :27:12. | :27:19. | |
over 16 and are learning from the best international systems. All | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
countries that we look to learn from have a stage of education that no | :27:24. | :27:27. | |
longer exclusively takes place in school. There are options for | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
students to gain relevant experience to prepare them for work, either | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
through apprenticeships or technical education or to prepare for further | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
academic study at university. The way this work and age this starts | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
varies considerably around the world. In countries like Germany, | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
Switzerland and the Netherlands, there is a high level of investment | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
by employers in vocational training in the secondary face and an early | :27:58. | :28:02. | |
emphasis on workplace training. This leads to lower rates of young people | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
not in education, employment or training than in England but the | :28:07. | :28:10. | |
difference in academic standards between pupils from different socio | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
economic backgrounds in these countries is larger than in England. | :28:15. | :28:20. | |
By contrast, only one fifth of 15-19 -year-olds in Japan and Korea are | :28:21. | :28:27. | |
enrolled in vocational courses and the remaining percentage continue a | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
rigorous academic programme. It is very useful to benchmark ourselves | :28:33. | :28:44. | |
against these countries, to understand the strength and | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
weaknesses of our education system and to raise our expectations of | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
what students here can achieve. That's why I am determined why we | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
should improve our maths teaching by learning from the high performing | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
Asian systems, such as Shanghai, Singapore and Japan, by adopting | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
maths mastery. But it is not simply a case of choosing one country to | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
learn from. Our priority should be making our whole system world class. | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
But there is much to be proud of in comparing our education system to | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
other countries. England's 15-year-olds continue to perform | :29:23. | :29:25. | |
significantly above the OECD the average in science and for the first | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
time in 2015, above average in Reading. Our performance in maths | :29:32. | :29:38. | |
remains at the OECD average and a survey of adult skills identified | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
them as having the week as literacy and numerous C skills out of 18 | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
countries in 2012. In the case of literacy and numerous C, we have now | :29:51. | :29:54. | |
made the continuous study of English and maths in post-16 education and | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
training compulsory for students who did not achieve a GCSE or past 16. | :29:59. | :30:08. | |
We are reforming both academic and technical education. International | :30:09. | :30:15. | |
examples of ours are widely used. But these comparisons need to be | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
carefully interpreted. It is important we understand what these | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
estimates include, how programmes serve longer duration or higher | :30:24. | :30:28. | |
intensity are funded and how they sit beside other routes for young | :30:29. | :30:33. | |
people to take from school to work. It is not always clear in the | :30:34. | :30:36. | |
various studies were work experience is included in the figures. In the | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
planned ours used to benchmark our own programmes for funding, we do | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
not include self-directed study or home work, which is a key part of | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
the space of education. What is important as we develop a system | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
which serves our pupils and economy. In England we have an established | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
academic group the sixth form students through well-respected | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
A-level qualifications. Our system requires pupils to make choices and | :31:06. | :31:11. | |
therefore to a certain extent to specialise in a smaller number of | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
subjects 46th form stage but some degree of specialisation is a | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
feature of systems and other countries as well through the | :31:21. | :31:25. | |
A-level route, our academic system is effective in preparing pupils for | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
successful futures through in-depth studies of the subjects they choose. | :31:31. | :31:34. | |
We have some of the best universities in the world. The | :31:35. | :31:38. | |
proportion of English students studying in higher education is high | :31:39. | :31:44. | |
that it has ever been. But we are not standing still and are | :31:45. | :31:50. | |
strengthening the design to make sure the pupils continue to be fully | :31:51. | :31:56. | |
equipped for the future. We have given higher education providers a | :31:57. | :31:59. | |
leading role in redesigning a number of key A-levels to ensure that | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
pupils who take these qualifications are prepared for undergraduate level | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
study. We have also redesigned the assessment model, increasing the | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
time available for high-quality teaching rather than taking exams. | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
Where we have not matched our neighbours is in technical | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
education, where we have a major programme of review underway. It is | :32:25. | :32:30. | |
conducted by Professor Alison Bolton 2011, and that found that at least | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
350,000 16-19 -year-olds working towards vocational qualifications | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
offered no clear progression. The review led to the introduction of | :32:42. | :32:47. | |
new study programmes and per student funding is the perfect qualification | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
funding to ensure their funding and every college in line with other | :32:51. | :32:56. | |
16-19 institutions. As a direct result of the recommendations in the | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
report, we now only include approved qualifications in performance | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
tables, meaning young people can have confidence that their | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
qualifications will enable them to progress to further study or | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
employment. But we recognise that the system is not doing enough to | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
support students who wish to pursue technical education and we recognise | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
that we're still not matching the most effective systems of technical | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
education in other European economies. Following the publication | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
of the Sainsbury review, we are embarking on radical reform of | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
England's post-16 technical education system, learning from best | :33:38. | :33:43. | |
systems. We are working to introduce new technical routes, enabling young | :33:44. | :33:45. | |
people to gain the knowledge and skills required for work according | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
to standards designed in partnership with employers and bringing training | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
for young people and adults in line with the needs of business and | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
industry. We will support increases in productivity, which has lagged | :34:00. | :34:05. | |
behind. It will also help ensure that young people and adults can | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
move into sustained and skilled careers, which lead to prosperity | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
and security. Alongside this, we are continuing the reform of | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
apprenticeships, increasing the quality of apprenticeships through | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
more rigorous assessment and grading, and giving employers | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
control of the funding so they become more demanding. We are | :34:26. | :34:32. | |
committed to reaching 3 million apprenticeships starts in England by | :34:33. | :34:38. | |
2020. I am genuinely very much welcome his support for the sick | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
form sector and colleges but he has been speaking up for nearly ten | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
minutes and has said nothing about the arbitrator funding which has | :34:47. | :34:49. | |
been the focus of so much concern expressed on all sides of the House. | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
Only committee will look at this funding issue? The government will | :34:55. | :35:02. | |
look at how much funded is required? Colleges in my constituency are | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
desperate to deliver that but it is being undermined by the lack of | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
funding, which he has not addressed so far. If only the honourable | :35:10. | :35:16. | |
member her just waited two more seconds, we would have come to that | :35:17. | :35:19. | |
pivotal part of my response to this debate. Clearly, the right level of | :35:20. | :35:27. | |
funding needs to be in place to match our ambitious academic and | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
technical reforms. In 2013, investment in education in the UK as | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
a whole, combining public and private sources, was above the OECD | :35:37. | :35:43. | |
average course or faces, including post-16. We have made the system | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
more coherent so sick form and colleges are all funded and have | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
performance reported in the same way. Funding is on a per student | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
basis, giving schools and colleges the freedom to design the best | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
programme for their students rather than awarding institutions for | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
providing large numbers of small qualifications with little value. | :36:04. | :36:10. | |
I thank the Minister for giving me on that point. He sees that all | :36:11. | :36:18. | |
institutions are treated the same but in the reviews that we have seen | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
undertaken in many parts of the country three schools in particular | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
were out with this review. Is he aware of the sixth form college in | :36:30. | :36:38. | |
my constituency that has recently received a requires improvement | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
rating, it is operating below the numbers required. Does he think that | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
is a good use of public funds in the context of this debate? | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
These reviews can take into account schools, but there are 2000 schools | :36:59. | :37:03. | |
or more that have sixth forms and if you are to take all schools with | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
sixth forms into the review that would make the system and | :37:08. | :37:15. | |
manageable. The free system was introduced to challenge the call | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
because we have had a monopoly provision of schools in the past. | :37:21. | :37:26. | |
The free school phenomenon has been significant. | :37:27. | :37:37. | |
Dees are challenging the status quo in those areas and are providing | :37:38. | :37:44. | |
high-quality education. We need to see more of these innovative schools | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
to open up opportunities for young people that they would not have | :37:52. | :38:02. | |
without free sixth form schools. Does he accept that the research | :38:03. | :38:06. | |
available demonstrates that the funding of 16-18 -year-olds since | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
2010 has reduced in real terms and this has reduced the level of | :38:13. | :38:20. | |
tuition time down to 13-17 hours per student? I am interested whether he | :38:21. | :38:24. | |
recognises that as an issue and whether he sees it as a problem? I | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
recognise that resources are tight for 16-19 education and training and | :38:33. | :38:40. | |
in recent years we have had to make post-16 savings while working hard | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
to sustain funding levels for schools, bearing in mind that | :38:45. | :38:51. | |
success in school 316 is the best predictor of outcomes in post-16 | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
education that we have made clear commitments where we have protected | :38:57. | :39:00. | |
the base rate of funding at ?4000 per student for all types of | :39:01. | :39:07. | |
provider until 2020. This was announced the 2015 Spending Review. | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
And at a time when public finances are under great pressure. Providers | :39:12. | :39:18. | |
receive additional funding for more expensive programmes and that is a | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
large uplift for providers who have pupils who are studying four or more | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
a levels provided the achieve minimum grade requirements, and ?540 | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
million of funding is allocated each year to enable schools and colleges | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
to give extra support to disadvantaged students, essential in | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
helping those from less well-off backgrounds, or who have not | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
attained well before the age of 16, to get the help they need to | :39:46. | :39:55. | |
succeed. We plan to spend ?20 billion in 2016-2017 to make sure | :39:56. | :40:00. | |
there is a space in education and training for every 16-19 -year-old | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
who wants one. All types of providers are funded for 600 hours | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
per year per full-time student. This will allow for three A-levels and 50 | :40:14. | :40:21. | |
hours tutorials plus either one AS-level or 150 hours of enrichment | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
or a work experience. While we have not been able to protect budgets for | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
sixth form education in real terms there is funding to ensure that | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
every sixth form each student has the opportunity to undertake high | :40:38. | :40:41. | |
quality study that will enable them to move on to skills work or further | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
or higher education. Our commitments to the post-16 sector has | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
contributed to the current record high proportion of 16-18 -year-olds | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
in education or apprenticeship and the lowest proportion of young | :40:57. | :41:08. | |
people, applications are at an all-time high. I recognise there is | :41:09. | :41:18. | |
more to do to continue improving our post-16 education system to make | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
sure it is established as one of the best in the world that we should be | :41:22. | :41:26. | |
proud of the achievements so far and recognise that we are building a | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
system that is both affordable and in keeping with our country's needs. | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
The question is that this post as no adjourn, as many as are of that | :41:36. | :41:44. | |
opinion see aye. The Ayes Havret. Order. Order. | :41:45. | :42:30. | |
No one can deny that politicians are important people as I am sure they | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
would be the first to remind us. It is up to them to make the laws which | :42:38. | :42:45. | |
govern our lives. You and I might call them bigwigs. The origin of | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
this word. This was the meeting place of the law courts for almost | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
seven centuries and wigs made an appearance when Charles II is made | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
them essential for polite society. Wigs | :43:02. | :43:02. |