Browse content similar to 10/01/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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proposition might be substantial support for it. I tried to expand | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
the envelope but there are limits, if we don't have a longer session, | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
people will have to be brief in questions and answers. Urgent | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
question. John McDonnell. I would support two hours, Mr Speaker. To | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
ask the Chancellor of the Exchequer to make a statement on the National | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
Audit Office report into the government's management of the HMRC | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
estate as published today. Minister. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
transformation plans of HMRC will allow it to become efficient and | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
effective tax collector said for the digital age. The large estate is | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
ageing and not delivering the best value for money for the taxpayer. | :00:41. | :00:45. | |
The audit office has confirmed that savings of ?80,000,000 a year will | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
be made by 2025. The size of the estate has been reducing since 2006, | :00:51. | :00:55. | |
the report published today shows some effective changes have been | :00:56. | :01:00. | |
made since 2010 while reducing staff numbers by a quarter and saving the | :01:01. | :01:05. | |
taxpayer over ?300,000,000. But HMRC wants to keep up the momentum to | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
provide better service at a reduced cost. They announced in 2015 at | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
means taking forward big reforms to have the estate works which will see | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
over 170 small offices consolidated into 13 larger regional offices, an | :01:23. | :01:26. | |
approach used across government. This brings a range of advantages | :01:27. | :01:29. | |
from efficient sharing of resources and quality digital infrastructure | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
to better support and career opportunities for staff who can | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
effectively share expertise and for the public it means a better and | :01:40. | :01:44. | |
bolder in service, run by fewer staff, costing around ?80,000,000 a | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
year less by the time changes take effect. The report today suggests | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
the cost of bringing this transformation are likely to be | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
higher than was 1st forecast. Certain aspects of the programme | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
could not be definitively made at the start. There are a wide range of | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
factors behind that from rising property costs and changes made to | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
the programme, for example to help staff the just and ensures smooth | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
transition for customers and the programme costs are updated to | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
reflect that. I thank the National Audit Office for their timely report | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
of the strategy to modernise the HMRC service is the right approach | :02:24. | :02:27. | |
and reflects the way taxpayers into rack with it. It's a plant is a good | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
IT manual processing of casks that can be done more easily with | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
technology. In short, we remain fully committed to taking forward | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
the changes to the HMRC estate that will help us bring a bad tax service | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
with the people of this country. -- a better tax service. In reality, | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
the report is damning of the government plans to close offices. | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
Be warned consistently but the government proposals will have a | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
detrimental impact on the HMRC ability to provide advice and tackle | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
tax evasion and avoidance. The report confirms our fears. Firstly | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
it calls the original closure van unrealistic at the estimate of the | :03:10. | :03:14. | |
costs of the move increased by 22%, ?600,000,000 extra, forecasting a | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
further 5000 job losses, finding the cost of redundancy and travel have | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
tripled from 17,000,000 2 54 million and says HMRC can demonstrate how | :03:27. | :03:31. | |
services can be improved. It hasn't even produced a clear programme | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
business case for the closures. As we predicted this is an emerging | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
disaster. Even the government accepts there is a gap of at least | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
36,000,000,000, these plans will do nothing but hinder tackling tax | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
evasion and avoidance. 73% of staff in the survey said it will undermine | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
their ability in terms of providing tax collection services, 50% saying | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
it will undermine their ability to clamp down on evasion and avoidance. | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
On the Minister Colet halt to the plant closures, and the job cuts at | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
HMRC and come back with a realistic plan to fully resource HMRC. In its | :04:10. | :04:14. | |
vitally important tax collection role. Of course the Shadow | :04:15. | :04:22. | |
Chancellor is right to say it's a vitally important role and at the | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
heart of the lot of the changes that have been made since the original | :04:27. | :04:33. | |
estimates and planning for this part of the transformation, at the heart | :04:34. | :04:39. | |
of that, a lot of it is about supporting staff that and putting | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
more things in place to support their move. It's interesting that | :04:44. | :04:48. | |
the Shadow Chancellor makes no mood of the potential benefits to staff | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
of this move. Of course some people will not be able to make the move | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
but the vast majority will live an average journey and will be | :04:58. | :05:00. | |
supported, 1-to-1 conversations happen with staff at head of moves. | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
And I think actually what he just said does not represent actually -- | :05:07. | :05:13. | |
accurately what the National audit says, recognising that the move to | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
regional offices is central to aims to increase tax revenue, improve | :05:19. | :05:20. | |
customer service and make cost savings. The move to regional | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
centres has never been just about cost savings or buildings, it's | :05:26. | :05:28. | |
about the way they work in those buildings. Ultimately we have an | :05:29. | :05:34. | |
opportunity to change the way we work. 1982 my 1st job after going to | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
school was in an old tax office, some of those officers are over 100 | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
years old and some of them haven't changed since I worked in them as a | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
school either. It's right we commit to making sure staff can work in a | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
modern environment. Staff will be offered the chance to move and for | :05:53. | :05:58. | |
those who cannot, there is 1-to-1 support, bespoke support and indeed | :05:59. | :06:01. | |
some of those staff will go to other government departments. That is | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
absolute nonsense. A lot of chuntering from the front bench but | :06:07. | :06:08. | |
they are not listening to the facts and they haven't read what BN AO | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
said. This is a major programme, right that the periodic overall | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
costs are reviewed but HMRC is not looking to make significant changes | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
to its overall strategy. We wanted staff to work closer together in | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
regional centres and specialist sites in a modern, flexible, high | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
quality working space and lastly on the subject of tax evasion and the | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
tax gap, no government has done more than this. It's absolute nonsense to | :06:38. | :06:43. | |
say that HMRC capacity to tackle those issues is diminished, far from | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
it. The tax gap in the UK is 1 of the lowest in the world, at its | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
lowest level ever, and in the summer budget we gave HMRC an extra | :06:56. | :06:59. | |
?800,000,000 to tackle tax evasion which it's done extremely well and | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
once again, we've reached record levels of compliance with regard to | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
money from measures against tax evasion. I read but entirely the | :07:09. | :07:12. | |
point is the Shadow Chancellor made in that regard. Sir Nicholas Soames. | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
With my honourable friend take it from me that in my own experience | :07:18. | :07:25. | |
dealing with constituents and with corporations in my own constituency | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
who have had enquiries with HMRC, in my judgement, their response time | :07:30. | :07:35. | |
and the way they handled the cases has immensely improved over the last | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
few years. In respect of them seeking to deal with tax evasion and | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
avoidance, there is absolutely no doubt they've raised the game very | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
considerably indeed. I thank my right honourable friend for those | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
comments and I think, I'm glad that he's put on board his pre- CH and | :07:55. | :08:02. | |
for a start. He is absolutely right. For the past 6 months, waiting times | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
have been less than 5 minutes on average and in fact customer service | :08:07. | :08:09. | |
has improved to the best service levels in years. This is something | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
management keep under review, it's right we seek to provide the best | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
service possible but we cannot do that in an modernised offices. | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
Recognising and failing to invest in digital technology... We need to | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
bring people together in an environment that is that for the | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
future both for staff and customers. The National Audit Office actually | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
said, the original plan proved unrealistic, suitable property will | :08:44. | :08:46. | |
not be available within the time frame set out, the revenue estimates | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
it may lose up to 5000 staff, simultaneously requiring recruitment | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
while carrying out redundancies. The plans were overly optimistic and | :08:57. | :08:59. | |
they carried too high a risk of disruption. Very similar warnings to | :09:00. | :09:07. | |
the turned failings of the step programme. Given how there and start | :09:08. | :09:13. | |
the warnings actually are, would it not simply make more sense to cause | :09:14. | :09:23. | |
this, rip it up and start again? No, I don't think that's right. I really | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
can't agree with that. Because the reasons that are driving this | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
programme, the reasons we want to transform HMRC into the most modern | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
digital tax authority in the world all still stand. It is right that of | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
course in any major programme and there are a number of them running | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
at the same time, we've always been open, this is an ambitious | :09:46. | :09:47. | |
transformation and it's right that it slip that regularly and of course | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
HMRC will respond in detail to the report. But the principle that | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
drives it stands absolutely good for all the reasons I've talked about, | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
but ever customers, Verstappen, but the taxpayer. With regard to the | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
right honourable gentleman who mentioned the step programme, the | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
National Audit Office report noted the fact that HMRC has managed the | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
programme better, the programme initiated under the last Labour | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
government but the report is complimentary about the way HMRC is | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
managing that and has got some of those PFI costs under control but | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
it's right that we constantly re-evaluate programmes of this | :10:27. | :10:32. | |
importance but I don't agree with the central thrust of this question | :10:33. | :10:35. | |
and it was not involve Scotland is 8% of the UK population, 12% of the | :10:36. | :10:41. | |
HMRC workforce will remain in Scotland is a Scotland remains a | :10:42. | :10:43. | |
very important part of the HMRC estate. Anne-Marie Trevelyan. Thank | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
you. It's good to hear the Minister raising the point that the telephone | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
answering is improving. On the Public Accounts Committee we looked | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
at this on an ongoing basis and it's been probably the biggest part of | :10:59. | :11:02. | |
our information coming through from MPs across the House. With the | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
digital world moving forward and we support this programme, could the | :11:08. | :11:09. | |
Minister said out how we are going to make sure staff who are on the | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
end of the phone will have the right qualifications to be able to support | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
businesses and individuals who need information? Again I thank my | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
honourable friend and important for her as a member of the Public | :11:27. | :11:28. | |
Accounts Committee to have the record that a lot of effort has gone | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
into improving customer service levels and they are good at the | :11:33. | :11:36. | |
moment and improving, that remains a key focus. Supporting staff, to | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
cover the point she makes about supporting staff as training will be | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
so much easier in regional centres. For example, at the moment, you have | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
large numbers of officers, it's not possible because of the nature of | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
the tasks and the volume, the number of people there, it's not possible | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
to have easy, effective training programmes, to plan career | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
progression, in the same way it will be when you get a larger number of | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
people together. If something reflect did across government and | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
the private sector, that you can do a lot more for people when you're | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
able to concentrate on a different range of skills so that people have | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
a chance to plot a career within the same office and I think that goes to | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
the heart of how we intend to prove the service to customers. -- to | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
improve. Chris Bryant. The trouble with this talk of regional centres | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
is that this is exactly what happened in every other department, | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
in constituencies like mine and for that matter across the South Wales | :12:39. | :12:40. | |
valleys of fields as a government has said, no we're not interested, | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
everything is going to forget about it. Can I urge her to think again, | :12:45. | :12:51. | |
the Treasury and the whole of government has a social | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
responsibility, in particular to areas like the Rhondda valleys and | :12:56. | :12:58. | |
the valleys, to make sure it has a local presence. It's certainly the | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
case that we want to, I can't agree with what he says, but the | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
honourable gentleman says about the motivation but equally, as I said | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
before, there is a balance to be struck between the service, | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
customers, the way we support staff, and how we serve the wider taxpayer | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
interest. And you see across government, yes, there has been a | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
move towards more modern, perhaps in some cases more centralised | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
services. There is a balance to be struck but there is a really robust | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
programme of support in place for staff who can't move and for those | :13:35. | :13:40. | |
who can move and extra money has been put into transitional costs | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
associated with transport, for example. But HMRC is also working | :13:44. | :13:49. | |
with other government departments to make sure thing we can we take | :13:50. | :13:52. | |
advantage of the high skills they have to move people into other | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
government departments were those skills can be used. The Minister | :13:57. | :14:03. | |
noted in the report there were some compliments about how HMRC has moved | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
to a more realistic plan for the project and is managing the existing | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
provider that they stay better than it had been. But she said out how | :14:13. | :14:15. | |
they will build on the progress to make sure skills are in Hampstead? | :14:16. | :14:21. | |
Of course he is quite right to say that and as I said before, obviously | :14:22. | :14:30. | |
HMRC will be responding in detail to this in a report and I will be | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
looking to discuss that with them. One of the NA's commendations is | :14:35. | :14:40. | |
just that that he has drawn our attention to that there should be a | :14:41. | :14:45. | |
process from learning from every part of the move and making sure the | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
first regional centre opens and it is reviewed and we've learnt | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
lessons. It is a long programme and not an overnight situation. We need | :14:53. | :15:01. | |
to review it at every stage and learn as we go along. In Workington | :15:02. | :15:12. | |
and you are proposing to close a modern office and the NAO says that | :15:13. | :15:18. | |
the distance between regional offices is 18 miles. Workington has | :15:19. | :15:27. | |
been paired with Liverpool. It will take three hours. It is | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
unacceptable. The workers in the Workington cannot transfer to | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
Liverpool. I don't know how they can be re-skill to work in equivalent | :15:37. | :15:41. | |
jobs in Workington. I would love to know what your suggestions. To me, | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
this is unacceptable. I have no plans to close that office. To my | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
very great life impoverishment I have two admit that I am not aware | :15:54. | :15:56. | |
to date of having been to Workington. I certainly would not | :15:57. | :16:04. | |
take it upon myself to close something that I have not even | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
visited. We recognise that you are busy enough without taking charge of | :16:10. | :16:16. | |
HMRC's transformation programme as well. The honourable lady has | :16:17. | :16:19. | |
written to me about this and I said I am happy to make with her. Whilst | :16:20. | :16:30. | |
the average that is cited in the report, we accept that the move will | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
be impossible for some people. The move will be supported, hopefully | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
where they will be other jobs in other departments. There is a lot of | :16:41. | :16:50. | |
work going into supporting staff and helping them into other jobs. I have | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
written to her before, but I will write to her again on the more | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
specific points. HMRC are planning a regional centre in Leeds. They have | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
not identified any site. Any site they do come up with will be | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
expensive and it will crowd out private sector investment in Leeds. | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
A few miles up the road in Bradford, a site is readily available. It | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
would be cheaper for the taxpayer than it would be in Leeds and it | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
would help the economy in the Bradford district. Can I urge the | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
Minister to use the NAO report, pause and look again and make sure | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
the regional centre in Yorkshire is not in Leeds, but in Bradford where | :17:35. | :17:42. | |
many people in HMRC already work. As much honourable friend knows, I am | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
familiar with all the localities he describes and it is fair to say, I | :17:46. | :17:51. | |
mean Bradford was disappointed not to be the chosen site for the | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
regional centre, but it is equally true that his constituents, the | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
railway station of Shipley is merely ten minutes from Leeds on the train. | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
I hope for his constituents that will be quite a realistic move, for | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
those who wish to move. I will reflect on what he said and if I can | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
provide further detail I will write to him, but HMRC have provided | :18:16. | :18:21. | |
detailed responses, explaining the criteria and wine leads -- and a | :18:22. | :18:30. | |
wide Leeds was chosen over Bradford. The Minister will be aware that some | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
HMRC offices have already closed in Northern Ireland is causing | :18:38. | :18:44. | |
consternation to employees who have to be redirected to Belfast. It has | :18:45. | :18:53. | |
also caused problems for all very people dealing with the taxation | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
affairs. But the Minister please put a pause on any further closures as | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
they simply cause chaos and upheaval. I am not entirely sure | :19:02. | :19:09. | |
that I recognise the description of chaos and upheaval, bearing in mind | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
what I have said about average customer service times at the moment | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
and the fact that the standards are being achieved at the moment. I | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
don't think that aligns with what she said, but I recognise that | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
changes of this scale can be a truly difficult for the people affected by | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
them. If I could just pick up one thing she said about people, the way | :19:29. | :19:36. | |
they interact at HMRC. It is a different world to the last time the | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
estates were looked at. The boss amount of taxpayers who interacts | :19:41. | :19:47. | |
with HMRC do so digitally or on the phone and we have to adjust to the | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
way the world is now and not to what it was like some decades ago. I want | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
to see my constituents get the best possible service from HMRC when they | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
have a problem, particularly when things go wrong. As HMRC have around | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
58,000 employees, would my honourable friend at least consider | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
the feasibility of HMRC allocating at least one named employee for | :20:13. | :20:18. | |
every constituency so that each MP has someone permanent they can | :20:19. | :20:26. | |
contact within the HMRC? Obviously over the course of working through | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
the recent challenges around the concentric 's contract and the | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
fallout from that, I have looked personally at the issue of how HMRC | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
interacts with members of Parliament. I have looked at that | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
specific ideal and I will reflect on what my honourable friend has said, | :20:48. | :20:56. | |
but I am looking to make sure that resources allocated to members of | :20:57. | :21:07. | |
Parliament were very effective and results are gotten quickly. HMRC | :21:08. | :21:13. | |
should be serving colleagues on all side of the house effectively. The | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
modernisation and improvement in Northern Ireland has led to closures | :21:19. | :21:24. | |
in towns with already high employment. There is frustration | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
with difficult cases and the loss of expertise in border cases where the | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
evasion of tax is widespread. How does this fit in with the | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
government's commitment to spread economic growth, give better service | :21:36. | :21:42. | |
to customers and reduce tax evasion? On a broader point, Mr Speaker, it's | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
worth noting that employment in our country is at an all-time high. We | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
would always want to retain expertise within HMRC, but within | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
any large organisation, you will always simultaneously have people | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
leaving and people you are recruiting and training up. I | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
referred the honourable gentleman to what I said earlier that for people | :22:04. | :22:08. | |
who want to join an organisation, become highly skilled and | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
professional and then plot a career through HMRC, it is going to be much | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
easier to support people to have those long-term fulfilling careers | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
in a variety of different areas of HMRC in the new modernised | :22:22. | :22:29. | |
structures. The Minister said a number of times that there will be | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
better service customers in these regional centres, but I note from | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
the NAO report it says the HMRC have not demonstrated that. Can the | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
Minister just reassure me how do she reach a conclusion there will be a | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
better service and it will be more efficient and effective the | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
customers? I noted that. I'm not sure I quite agree with how it was | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
expressed, but I noted the point she made. Let me give her one example. | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
Many of the buildings inhabited by HMRC are very old. If you look at | :23:06. | :23:12. | |
the latest digital infrastructure and many, many more taxpayers are | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
interacting digitally. We have over 7 million personal tax accounts now. | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
It is difficult as anybody knows to bring an old office up to modern | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
standards in terms of giving it the right digital infrastructure. If we | :23:30. | :23:32. | |
want to make sure that staff can make the most of modern computer | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
systems and put those at the service of customers who increasingly | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
interact digitally it is much better to do that in newer buildings which | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
have been bought for the purpose will be planned from the start for | :23:45. | :23:52. | |
that sort arrangement. The minister speaks about saving money and having | :23:53. | :23:56. | |
modern offices. In my constituency the HMRC offices are high tech with | :23:57. | :24:04. | |
high school star. There is plenty more space. It will save the | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
government ?70 million to keep it and develop it. Will she meet with | :24:11. | :24:18. | |
me to consider keeping the harbour in West Lothian rather than moving | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
it to the city centre where rents will be more expensive? I have had a | :24:23. | :24:28. | |
number of conversations, particularly with some of her | :24:29. | :24:31. | |
colleagues based in Scotland. I'm always happy to meet any | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
Parliamentary colleagues to discuss anything. No change to that regional | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
centre is envisaged. I'm happy to have a conversation, but we don't | :24:44. | :24:52. | |
envisage a plan of change. Sheffield staff are already commuting | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
considerably distances to the HMRC office because of previous office | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
closures. HMRC can ill afford to lose 5000 experienced that this | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
time? Given that HMRC have struggled to find suitable properties in the | :25:08. | :25:11. | |
location suggested, could she reassess property locations based on | :25:12. | :25:16. | |
cost and the ability to retain experienced staff and customer | :25:17. | :25:27. | |
service. You shouldn't be about where is easiest for Whitehall civil | :25:28. | :25:33. | |
servants to get to in those regions. The latter points she makes is not | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
the Russian now as to have the sites were chosen. Of course, I'm going to | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
read the report and reflect on it and as I say, HMRC will be looking | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
to respond in detail, but a lot of thought has gone into choosing | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
regional centres. I acknowledged some people will not be able to make | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
a move because the travel will be too far. It is very much a case that | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
we want to retain experienced staff. The people who can't move with HMRC | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
will be a variety of different levels of experience within the | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
organisation but where we can keep their skills at the service of the | :26:10. | :26:12. | |
tax payer to other government departments we office we will try | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
to. As I say, HMRC will respond in detail to the report, but I don't | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
quite recognise the characterisation she gives a choosing locations. In | :26:24. | :26:33. | |
likelihood the Welsh language unit will be centralised in Cardiff in | :26:34. | :26:45. | |
our region. 71% of the population can speak Welsh and it is the | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
working language of county administration. We have looked at | :26:49. | :26:54. | |
this issue and in part we are looking to what with other | :26:55. | :26:57. | |
government departments. I'm happy to have a conversation with colleagues | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
about this, not in Welsh! I will write to her about the detail | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
because this issue of the Welsh language has been raised with me | :27:07. | :27:08. | |
before and I know it has been taught in some detail. It is not that often | :27:09. | :27:17. | |
the honourable member for Shipley and I are on the same page, but on | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
this occasion we certainly are and he makes an excellent point in | :27:23. | :27:29. | |
defending Bradford. Additionally, Mr Speaker, by closing offices in | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
Bradford, HMRC will be turning their back on the skilled and diverse | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
workforce, access to building universities on one of the best MBA | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
programmes in the UK, all of which will help them to achieve their aim. | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
But the Minister reconsider and take a more sensible approach? Mr | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
Speaker, I can give the house and the honourable gentleman might | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
assurances that as a Bradford girl I would not do anything to harm | :27:56. | :27:59. | |
Bradford, but equally as a Bradford girl I make many times a year the | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
very, very short commute between Bradford and Leeds and I think | :28:05. | :28:12. | |
therefore that we would not wish to lose any expertise, but of all the | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
possible moves, Bradford to Leeds is the shortest commute that any HMRC | :28:17. | :28:24. | |
staff transferring war have to make and we want to retain all the | :28:25. | :28:34. | |
experienced staff we can. Can the Minister tell us if an equality | :28:35. | :28:45. | |
impact process has begun through? The loss of expertise does not only | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
applied to tax evasion, but the noncompliance of the national | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
minimum wage, a statistic that is On the latter point as the | :28:53. | :29:04. | |
honourable member will know, we have been tackling noncompliance on the | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
national minimum wage in the Autumn Statement and there's been a | :29:09. | :29:10. | |
considerable stepping up of that activity. I think I answered a | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Parliamentary question on that this week if the honourable jazzman would | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
like to refer to Hansard for statistics. We want to make sure as | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
much as possible we support people to move and it takes a long time for | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
people to get to the highest level of skill and we want to make sure we | :29:30. | :29:34. | |
retain people for me are at their peak professionalism. On the issue | :29:35. | :29:37. | |
of the equality impact assessment I will write to him. Mr Speaker will | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
the Minister look again at the Wales tax Centre and 30s and instead of | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
putting it in Cardiff in Swansea Bay, city region, on the grounds | :29:50. | :29:52. | |
that property prices and other costs are lower, urban deprivation is much | :29:53. | :30:00. | |
lower in terms of the skills or abundant, we have two universities | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
and that was the logic of putting the DVLA there, we need all the | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
support we can get is the biggest urban footprint in Wales. And it's | :30:09. | :30:18. | |
costly in Cardiff. Mr Speaker, the honourable gentleman neatly | :30:19. | :30:19. | |
illustrates the challenge in deciding on locations as part of a | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
programme like this. He makes the case for Swansea, other members make | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
the case of their area. It's always the case you need a set of objective | :30:30. | :30:35. | |
criteria to be able to assess against. I will write 10 on the | :30:36. | :30:38. | |
specifics of the choice of location in Wales but it goes to neatly | :30:39. | :30:43. | |
illustrate the fact that you need to assess against a set of objective | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
criteria because every area will rightly have its advocates in | :30:48. | :30:51. | |
Parliament. Gregory Campbell. Is the Minister aware of the concerns that | :30:52. | :30:55. | |
exist across the United Kingdom particularly in Northern Ireland | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
that a policy that the Minister has outlined of regionalisation will | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
become centralisation and a very small number of officers with large | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
and bus of implies won't adequately service the needs of the community? | :31:08. | :31:16. | |
At the heart of the wider transformation of HMRC to become the | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
best digital tax authority in the world is the desire to do better for | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
customers, to collect smaller tax, to serve people better, to | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
constantly bear down on customer waiting times. -- to collect tax. | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
These programmes are designed to that end. I am aware of that. Does | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
the Minister accept that the closures will have a devastating | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
impact on some communities up and down the country, there is going to | :31:49. | :31:54. | |
be ?150,000,000 less to tackle tax avoidance as a result of the HMRC | :31:55. | :31:57. | |
failure to plan the move properly and they are even less effective at | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
saving money as they are at collecting it from slippery global | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
corporations? For the most part that was just a political point scorer. | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
In fact, as I've already mentioned, the facts do not bear out the point | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
from the honourable gentleman. Since 2010 HMRC has secured over | :32:22. | :32:27. | |
?130,000,000,000 in additional compliance revenue and as I said | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
before the UK tax gap fell in 201415 to its lowest ever level of 6 1/2 | :32:32. | :32:41. | |
percent. Ian Lucas. In Wales, the facts are that this government is | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
creating a national centre in the most expensive site in the country | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
in Cardiff. The facts are that there isn't a small office in Wrexham, it | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
employs 350 people and the alternative site put forward by HMRC | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
in Liverpool which has not been identified yet. This is a shambolic | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
policy, ill-conceived, been badly implemented and the Minister, | :33:06. | :33:11. | |
listening to my colleagues from Wales, she's heard from many of | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
them, Jiri Vesely is policy and reconsider. It's very bad indeed. I | :33:16. | :33:21. | |
know the honourable gentleman and his criticisms and I can't agree | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
with the thrust of his points. HMRC will respond in detail to this | :33:26. | :33:32. | |
report but also, this is a programme over a period of time and we will | :33:33. | :33:36. | |
learn from each move but I don't recognise the description he just | :33:37. | :33:42. | |
gave... Well I might just do that, but I do understand the point that | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
he's been making especially around some of the larger offices and I | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
realise until the side in Liverpool is identified it's a bit more | :33:52. | :33:54. | |
unsettling for his constituency workers than it might otherwise be. | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
Stuart MacDonald. Cumbernauld tax office takes the boxes in terms of | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
what HMRC 6 in a regional centre, the right size, experienced staff, | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
excellent locations of what America is the point closing at, disrupting | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
staff and damaging communities? I've had a number of conversations | :34:17. | :34:22. | |
specifically about this site, I will write to the honourable gentleman | :34:23. | :34:25. | |
with the detail of that but there are a lot of different factors that | :34:26. | :34:29. | |
go into choosing where to centre it and some of them I've touched on in | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
my statement and my response to the urgent question. Inevitably I can't | :34:33. | :34:37. | |
touch on all of them and much of that will come out in our response | :34:38. | :34:41. | |
to the report. I think the Minister would be outraged if people living | :34:42. | :34:48. | |
in villages, towns and small cities all suddenly stopped paying tax. And | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
yet, suddenly the civil service is being centralised in a few cities. | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
Can she please reconsider these points, it's totally outrageous for | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
people in North Wales? I'm not entirely sure I recognise the point | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
being made, most of our taxpayers now whether businesses or | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
individuals into rappers HMRC on the phone or digitally. The number of | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
people making personal visits and expects to be able to make a | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
personal visit to a local office is to radically different audible is a | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
generation or two ago. I do think it's right that we pursue this | :35:27. | :35:32. | |
modernisation but it's also right, as the National Audit Office reminds | :35:33. | :35:35. | |
us that we review the programme at every stage to make sure we are | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
getting everything right and that we learn from each iteration of it. | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
Chris Evans. Thank you. I'm sorry I have to disagree with the Minister | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
on customer service. Why wife waited for 30 minutes for someone to answer | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
the phone in HMRC over Christmas and in a previous National Audit Office | :35:53. | :35:58. | |
report shows 3 in 10 people giving up before a call is answered. She | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
will know this was only resolved when HMRC recruited an additional 2 | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
1/2 thousand members of staff to deal with this crisis at the end of | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
2015. Is she confident even know report says for every pound saved by | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
this change for pounds will go on telephone bills, she confident this | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
change will not see any decline in customer service? The focus on | :36:23. | :36:30. | |
customer service is absolutely vital. It's at the heart of this | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
wider transformation programme, not just the estate transformation. Is | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
the desire to make sure that HMRC is both the most effective tax | :36:42. | :36:43. | |
collector it can be but also dealing with customer service. That is | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
central to all the questions I ask of HMRC and the questions they ask | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
of themselves. On the specific point I'm sorry to hear his wife waited | :36:54. | :36:56. | |
for that long, I'm concerned about the number of people who while a | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
small proportion of the customers who ring wait for that length of | :37:00. | :37:05. | |
time because of the large numbers who ring HMRC, that's still quite a | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
lot of people that an issue I've been specifically discussing with | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
senior customer service managers within HMRC with a view to | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
addressing it further. Patrick Grady. Given that the DWP is | :37:18. | :37:24. | |
conducting an estate reviewed and threatening to close a job centres | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
in Glasgow for discussions is she having with colleagues about the | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
cumulative impact of the governments ranking its estate and what impact | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
is that going to have, how many HMRC employees will find themselves | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
without a job and without a local job centre to go to? This to speak | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
at the last question is difficult to answer because ultimately | :37:47. | :37:47. | |
individuals will decide what's right for them at a time when the facts of | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
a possible move are known. I know a great deal of support has been put | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
in place to help them, help them make the choice about moving or help | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
them to move to other jobs and I've had the chance to speak to not only | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
managers who are managing this programme but also to people | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
affected by front line services, when some of them came for an event | :38:09. | :38:16. | |
in London a few months ago. Specifically, the HR department of | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
HMRC are working closely with DWP because there are opportunities | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
there to have people move between departments. For the specifics at | :38:25. | :38:28. | |
his local office I'm afraid it's not easy to say or answer that until | :38:29. | :38:31. | |
more is known about what the actual move will be and the numbers | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
affected. Tom Elliott. Thank you. The vast majority of staff in HMRC | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
in my constituency in Enniskillen will be closer to 2 1st journey than | :38:43. | :38:50. | |
1 hour. Does the Minister not see merit in the audit office report | :38:51. | :38:53. | |
suggesting she should step back from the proposals? As I've said the | :38:54. | :39:02. | |
nature of responding to an urgent question is that it is 1 has not had | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
the chance to look at the whole report and reflect on it and HMRC | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
will respond to that. Know the Chief Executive is also coming to the | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
Public Accounts Committee Furley imminently, I imagine this is likely | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
to be raised by them so of course we are going to look at this. It's an | :39:20. | :39:23. | |
important report, we will look at what it says, but the central reason | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
for driving these plans still stands in terms of being able to modernise | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
the estate and provide a service to the customer that reflects modern | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
life and to make sure the working environment for staff and the career | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
progression open to them is the best it can be. Order. Statement, the | :39:41. | :39:46. | |
Secretary of State for Northern Ireland. Secretary James | :39:47. | :39:54. | |
Brokenshire. With permission Mr Speaker I would like to make a | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
statement about the political situation in Northern Ireland. As | :39:59. | :40:01. | |
the House will be aware yesterday Martin McGuinness submitted his | :40:02. | :40:07. | |
resignation as Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. This also means | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
the First Minister Arlene Foster also ceases to hold office though | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
she is able to carry out some limited functions. Under the terms | :40:17. | :40:22. | |
of the Northern Ireland act 1998 as amended ID St Andrews Agreement to | :40:23. | :40:29. | |
thousands 7, the position is clear. Should the offices of 1st and Deputy | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
First Minister not be filled within 7 days from the resignation of Mr | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
McGuinness then it falls to me as Secretary of State to set a date for | :40:40. | :40:46. | |
an Assembly election. -- 2007. While there is no fixed timetable in the | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
legislation for me to do this, it needs to be within a reasonable | :40:51. | :40:55. | |
period. In his resignation letter Mr McGuinness said in the available | :40:56. | :40:59. | |
period Sinn Fein will not nominate to the position of Deputy First | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
Minister. I am very clear that in the event of the offices not been | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
filled, I have an obligation to follow the legislation. As things | :41:10. | :41:15. | |
stand, therefore, an early Assembly election looks highly likely. I | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
should add that once an election has been held, the rules state that the | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
Assembly must meet again within 1 week with a further two week period | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
to form a new Executive. Should this not be achieved, as things currently | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
stand, I am obliged to call another election. So right honourable and | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
honourable member should be in no doubt, the situation we face in | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
Northern Ireland today is greater. And the government treats it with | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
the up most seriousness. It is worth reflecting for a moment on how we | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
have reached this point. The immediate cause of the situation we | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
now face is the fallout from the development and operation of the | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
Northern Ireland Renewable Heat Incentive scheme. Under this scheme | :42:05. | :42:10. | |
launched by the Northern Ireland Department for enterprise trade and | :42:11. | :42:12. | |
investment in 2012 and equivalent to a scheme in Great Britain, | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
businesses and other nondomestic users were offered financial | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
incentive to install renewable heat systems on the premises. The scheme | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
was finally shut down to new applicants from February last year | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
when it became clear that the lack of an upper limit on payments, | :42:29. | :42:31. | |
unlike the GBA Cleveland meant the scheme was open to serious abuse. In | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
recent weeks there has been sustained media focus and widespread | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
public concern about how this situation developed. The renewable | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
heat initiative scheme was and remains an entirely to vault matter | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
in which the UK Government has no direct role. -- devolved matter. Its | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
primary responsibility of the Northern Ireland Executive and Cindy | :43:00. | :43:01. | |
to take the necessary action to address concerns expressed about it. | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
But I do believe it's imperative that a comprehensive, transparent | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
and impartial inquiry into the development and meditation of the | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
scheme needs to be established as quickly as possible. In addition, | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
effective action needs to be taken by the Executive and the Assembly to | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
control costs. While the RHI might have been the catalyst for the | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
situation we now face, it has, however, expressed a number of | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
deeper tensions in the relationship tween the parties within the | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
Northern Ireland Executive. This has led to a break down in the trust and | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
co-operation that is necessary that the power-sharing institutions to | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
function effectively. Over the coming hours and days I will | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
continue to explore whether any basis exists to resolve these issues | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
prior to me having to fulfil my statutory duty to call an election. | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
I have been in regular contact with the leadership of the DUP and Sinn | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
Fein and also with the Justice Minister Claire Sugden, an | :44:12. | :44:14. | |
independent unionist. Yesterday evening I had a round of calls with | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
the main opposition parties at Stormont. I am in close contact with | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
the Irish Foreign Minister Charlie Flanagan. Immediately after the | :44:25. | :44:28. | |
statement I will return to Northern Ireland and I will continue to do | :44:29. | :44:30. | |
whatever I can to find a way forward. Both the UK and Irish | :44:31. | :44:36. | |
governments will continue to provide every possible support and | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
assistance to the Executive parties. We do however have to be realistic. | :44:40. | :44:45. | |
The clock is ticking. If there is no resolution in an election is | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
inevitable. Despite the widely held view that this election may deepen | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
divisions and threaten the continuity of the devolved | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
institutions. Mr Speaker, over recent decades Northern Ireland's | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
politicians have rightly earned plaudits from across the globe for | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
their ability to overcome difference and work together for the good of | :45:07. | :45:12. | |
the whole community. It is required courage and risk on all sides. We | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
are currently in the longest period of unbroken devolved government | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
since the 1960s. This political stability has been hard gained and | :45:24. | :45:26. | |
it should not be lightly thrown away. In the 14 months since the | :45:27. | :45:32. | |
fresh start agreement significant advances have been made in areas | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
such as addressing paramilitary activities, supporting shared and | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
integrated education and putting the Executive finances on a footing. | :45:40. | :45:45. | |
This parading season passed off peacefully and a long-running | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
dispute North resolved. We've also been working intensively to build | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
the necessary consensus to bring forward the bodies to address the | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
legacy of the past set out in the Stormont house agreement. | :45:58. | :46:07. | |
What Northern Ireland needs is strong stable government, not the | :46:08. | :46:13. | |
collapse of the institution. Northern Ireland deserves fair and | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
effective government. To continue implementing the Belfast agreement, | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
to strengthen the economy and ensure Northern Ireland response to the | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
challenges of an EU exit. There needs to be respect for everyone and | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
they need to address the legacy of the past that will allow Northern | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
Ireland to move forward. We must not put this at risk without every | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
effort to resolve differences. We must continue to do all that we can | :46:45. | :46:50. | |
to continue to build a brighter more secure Northern Ireland that works | :46:51. | :46:54. | |
for everyone. I therefore urge Northern Ireland Pozner political | :46:55. | :46:58. | |
leaders to work together, to come together to find a way forward from | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
the current position in the best interests of Northern Ireland and I | :47:03. | :47:10. | |
commend this statement to the house. If only we won here today, but we | :47:11. | :47:17. | |
are. Can I thank the secretary of State for the advance notice of his | :47:18. | :47:20. | |
statement. We've made it clear from the start that we in the Labour | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
Party will support him and his endeavours to maintain political | :47:25. | :47:26. | |
stability in Northern Ireland. Those of us with long memories can | :47:27. | :47:33. | |
remember a time when there was not the piece we see today and any | :47:34. | :47:41. | |
damage on our watch should provoke shame. The issues are many. | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
Including how do we deal with Northern Ireland and its legacy, how | :47:48. | :47:52. | |
do we help people in poverty and how do we handle the impending exit from | :47:53. | :48:02. | |
the European Union? We must remember that Northern Ireland has the only | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
land border with an EU region. It is that these reasons any division now | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
will be most damaging for Northern Ireland and we should all be | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
focusing on coming together to combat the common problems faced by | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
us all. This impasse does not help victims families or the economy and | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
these are the reasons why we in this house must come together, all of us, | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
put aside partisan concerns and try and support those in Northern | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
Ireland in order to maintain an enduring and peaceful devolution | :48:38. | :48:44. | |
settlement. The issues surrounding the RHI scheme have come to impasse | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
after many weeks of development and now it seems we may inevitably move | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
towards an election. An election that will see constituency numbers | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
reduced from six to five seats and we may see the loss of the many | :49:00. | :49:14. | |
voices in the Assembly. We could be back to square one with the | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
underlying issues unresolved. Potentially there could be more | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
polarised position than we face. If we have an election what will it be | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
for Tom? It should be who could deliver the best for Northern | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
Ireland, for the schools, for hospitals. We look forward to | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
progress and not backwards division. With so much at stake, surely it is | :49:38. | :49:47. | |
time for moderation. Lines in the sand are needed. I do not believe | :49:48. | :49:50. | |
from the feed that we are getting for the people on the ground in | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
Northern Ireland that the population want an election. -- from the | :49:58. | :50:04. | |
feedback that we are getting. It is not just about us, it is about the | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
world. The world is watching us and there is a huge amount of goodwill | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
towards Northern Ireland and admiration for the success we have | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
seen after decades of despair. They look to the Assembly to lead and the | :50:16. | :50:20. | |
responsibility is on them and this house. They don't want us to fail, | :50:21. | :50:26. | |
they want us to rise to hard challenges and work through them and | :50:27. | :50:28. | |
not just walk away when things get tough. We know from some experience | :50:29. | :50:35. | |
that the worst thing that you can do in Northern Ireland is leave a | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
vacuum. Six weeks of campaigning will not move the RHI campaign | :50:42. | :50:53. | |
forward one inch. For these reasons we ask that the Secretary of State | :50:54. | :50:56. | |
to convene around the table in Northern Ireland to discuss ways to | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
avoid this impasse. I'm glad to say he has been engaging with his | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
counterparts in the Irish government and with politicians in Northern | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
Ireland. Let's keep up and not give to despair. Regarding the RHI, what | :51:11. | :51:23. | |
will the effect of the projected overspend have Northern Ireland? We | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
thank the Secretary of State the coming to the house today. We in the | :51:27. | :51:29. | |
Labour Party will do all we can to ensure the devolved institutions | :51:30. | :51:39. | |
remain for many years. I am grateful for the support of the right | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
Honourable gentleman and his comments and I think he underlines | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
the significance of the issues here and why it is important that we have | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
a strong working functioning Executive to be able to take | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
Northern Ireland forward. There is so much to be positive about. When | :51:57. | :52:01. | |
you look at the jobs that have been created, the incredible businesses | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
that have been established and the really positive sense that I always | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
get in terms of that spirit and that believe in terms of what Northern | :52:10. | :52:11. | |
Ireland can be and what Northern Ireland will be and | :52:12. | :52:26. | |
how I think it does have a bright future to look forward to, but | :52:27. | :52:28. | |
clearly we need parties to come together, to work together as I have | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
said. A message that he himself has underlined in his comments. I can | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
certainly say to him that my intent over this short period is to | :52:35. | :52:36. | |
continue to engage with the parties to see what support we can provide | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
as the UK Government to find a way forward, to find a solution, to find | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
a way to pull back from the current situation we find ourselves commonly | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
in if things do not change. Certainly I will permit to do all I | :52:50. | :52:54. | |
can in my role to be able to support that activity. In terms of the cost | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
to the Northern Ireland budget, I know that the Executive itself has | :52:59. | :53:04. | |
given an estimate of around ?490 million over a 20 year period. | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
That's if no mitigation takes place, but I think one of the key issues to | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
take forward is to see what mitigation can be put in place to | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
see and support what proposals may come forward to be to mitigate that | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
in the best interests of taxpayers in Northern Ireland and certainly we | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
stand ready to work with the Executive to see if we can play a | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
role if necessary to assist. It is that focus that we have. As I say, | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
time is short in terms of that period before which I have to | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
consider my responsibilities to call that election and again, it is why | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
we need to work together. Unsurprisingly, a significant number | :53:50. | :53:51. | |
of colleagues are seeking to catch my eye and I would like to | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
accommodate most if not indeed all of them. By prospects of doing so | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
will be greatly enhanced if colleagues who are customarily | :54:01. | :54:03. | |
addicted too long or multifaceted questions today will contain | :54:04. | :54:14. | |
themselves and the will be minimal preamble. Given that new elections | :54:15. | :54:25. | |
would probably return the party is more or less in the same numbers as | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
they are now, does he agree with me that repeated callings of elections | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
were really address the fundamental issue? Don't we therefore need to | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
look closely at how the institutions are actually constructed and | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
formulated so that we can move away from this constant threats of those | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
very institutions collapsing or being collapsed? I think the chair | :54:48. | :54:54. | |
of the select committee, and I welcome his comments on the need for | :54:55. | :55:03. | |
focus on the issues that hands. Our attention now has to be on this | :55:04. | :55:06. | |
period between now and next week on seeking to establish whether there | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
is a way forward between the parties to encourage that, but that has to | :55:12. | :55:20. | |
be the immediate focus. Various points and questions have been | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
raised, but my responsibility at this time is to seek some form of | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
resolution to see if that is possible and obviously to take stock | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
of circumstances as they develop. As the Secretary of State alluded to in | :55:36. | :55:38. | |
his statement and this has been coming down the line for a couple of | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
months, it is deeply regrettable to see the Assembly stumble, it may | :55:43. | :55:50. | |
need a job to get it going again. There is limited room to manoeuvre | :55:51. | :55:57. | |
after the resignation of Mr McGuinness. What steps are being | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
taken to ensure that public confidence remains in the | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
institutions of Northern Ireland? Will democracy remain at the centre | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
of the debate in Northern Ireland? It is clear that the relationship in | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
the Executive has broken down. As he said in his statement, the clock is | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
ticking and it is unlikely to all parties will get back around the | :56:21. | :56:32. | |
table. His opportunities to affect Brexit negotiations appear as | :56:33. | :56:46. | |
limited as the Scottish Minister's. Northern Ireland voted to remain. | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
What is he doing to ensure the interests of the people of Northern | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
Ireland will be looked after? Finally, will you tell us about his | :56:57. | :57:03. | |
discussions with the leader of the UUP about suspending the Assembly | :57:04. | :57:12. | |
until an investigation into RHI is completed? One of the primary roles | :57:13. | :57:18. | |
of the UK Government is to provide political stability. We take our | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
responsibilities seriously in that regard and as I have already | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
indicated to the house, if the time period it lapses and the First | :57:27. | :57:34. | |
Minister and that a diverse minister are not in place, I have the duty | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
and obligation to move in the appropriate way to call the | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
election. -- Deputy First Minister. Obviously she highlights the issue | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
of confidence in the Northern Ireland political institutions. That | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
is why it is incumbent on me to use the period to work with the | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
different parties to see how that can be injected because it still | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
remains the best outcome that a resolution is found. If that way can | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
be found in the days ahead and that is where my focus will be. She also | :58:07. | :58:14. | |
highlights on the issue of Brexit and speaking of Northern Ireland. I | :58:15. | :58:18. | |
can assure her that is precisely what I have done and continue to do | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
with the regular meetings I have across Northern Ireland. Even | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
earlier this week I continue to do so and I'm ensuring the voice will | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
be heard. Having a strong Executive in place and remaining in place is | :58:32. | :58:37. | |
important and therefore the ability for the Executive to make points to | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
the UK Government I think underlines the need for us to find out -- find | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
our way forward to make sure Northern Ireland's voice is heard to | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
that mechanism as well as the strong voice that I will continue to give | :58:50. | :58:56. | |
in that regard. Does the Secretary of State agree that whilst the | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
election looks likely, it should be possible to come up with a | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
comprehensive and rigorous weight to investigate the overspent of the RHI | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
that will not lead to the break-up of the coalition all of the First | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
Minister standing down? I certainly believe that there should be | :59:17. | :59:21. | |
opportunities to find a way forward. That is precisely what I intend to | :59:22. | :59:25. | |
use the days ahead to do, to see if we can find that agreement. It is | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
that sense of establishing some form of enquiry and I think that there is | :59:31. | :59:34. | |
indication from all of the parties as the ways in which that could come | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
forward and also to give that sense of accountability and confidence in | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
what happens next and I'll certainly be using my influence to see what | :59:44. | :59:44. | |
can be done to achieve that. Will the Secretary of State and the | :59:45. | :59:57. | |
House except that we share the deep regret of the responsibility or Sinn | :59:58. | :00:00. | |
Fein to single-handedly cause the elapse of the present Executive and | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
precipitate what the Secretary of State calls a threat to the | :00:05. | :00:06. | |
continuity of devolved institutions and it's clear from what Sinn Fein | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
said in a resignation letter, it's not about RHI, had this continued we | :00:13. | :00:18. | |
would have had the investigation and according to them, they are not | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
getting their own way in a series of demands including rewriting the | :00:22. | :00:24. | |
past, more soldiers and security forces in the dock. We had just | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
agreed a programme of government in Northern Ireland. The Secretary of | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
State and the House needs to be assured we want a full investigation | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
into RHI, we have proposals to mitigate costs, this mustn't be | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
blocked by the actions of Sinn Fein which is the ironic outcome of what | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
they are planning to do and overall, he can be assured that we in this | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
party will continue to work with him and other parties to ensure a stable | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
Northern Ireland moving forward, based on good government. We want to | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
see institutions continue and we will do everything in our power to | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
make this process work. We deeply regret that Sinn Fein have decided | :01:04. | :01:11. | |
to walk away. Aluko many indications as to the parties working together | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
and I think we need to take this opportunity to establish what | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
arrangements can be put in place and therefore I will be continuing my | :01:22. | :01:24. | |
discussions with all of the political parties in the days ahead | :01:25. | :01:29. | |
and I think the right honourable gentleman highlights the issues that | :01:30. | :01:35. | |
are at stake. The need for a continued strong governance within | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
Northern Ireland to be able to take those issues forward. That is what I | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
want to see and I think that is what the whole house wants to see, | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
establishing further there is a way for it to be able to achieve that | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
end. Many hard working people across Northern Ireland to want to get on | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
with their lives will be exasperated by recent events and will welcome | :01:54. | :01:56. | |
the Secretary of State's measured tone and the comments of shadow | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
Secretary of State. In his discussions will he remind all | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
parties of the huge effort and immensely difficult compromises that | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
brought about the current settlement and will he stressed the enormously | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
valued long-term benefits must not be jeopardised for short term | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
political motives. I thank my right honourable friend and thank him and | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
by right honourable friend the Member for Chipping Barnet for all | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
the work they've done over many years to provide that stability and | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
security. The hard effort that's gone into achieving the games we see | :02:35. | :02:37. | |
today and I think it's with that focus we need to approach the days | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
ahead to see what resolution can be found. If there were to be an | :02:41. | :02:48. | |
election does the Secretary of State expect a government to be formed | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
after it and can he can burn that it is the government's intention that | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
under no circumstances will emergency legislation be introduced | :02:58. | :02:59. | |
into this House to introduce or reintroduce direct rule. I think it | :03:00. | :03:07. | |
is an helpful to talk about either the suspension of devolution or | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
direct rule, I think that's entirely premature and an helpful and I think | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
that's the tone and way in which the right honourable gentleman has made | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
his point. The next stage is if we are not able to reach a resolution | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
over the course of the next 7 days for an election to be called, as | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
I've indicated it is likely that election will be divisive, | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
difficult, tough and therefore the ability to reach resolution at the | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
end of that point may be challenging which is why I think we need to use | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
this time now to address a number of the points raised. The Secretary of | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
State touched in his statement on the possibility of an impartial | :03:46. | :03:48. | |
inquiry into the energy deal. Could he give more information about that, | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
the timescale and with that happen quickly with the result and a | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
possible election looming? Ultimately that will depend on the | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
Executive and the parties in Northern Ireland reaching a | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
resolution in relation to that. This is entirely within the double space | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
and therefore I think it's right and proper that a solution for this | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
should be created within that environment. But equally, I think it | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
underlines the need for us to get on with this were possible, to give a | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
sense of assurance, to respond to concerns raised and to show where | :04:22. | :04:27. | |
accountability may or may not rest, depending on the evidence that | :04:28. | :04:36. | |
emerges. Doctor Whittaker was 1 of the constant voices for peace and | :04:37. | :04:39. | |
reconciliation in Ireland between North and South and between Ireland | :04:40. | :04:42. | |
and Britain over his outstanding lifetime of public service. Doctor | :04:43. | :04:50. | |
Whittaker died last night for weeks after his hundredth birthday. The | :04:51. | :04:53. | |
Secretary of State join with the offering sympathy and condolences to | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
the family and friends of Ross Trevor Horn Doctor Whittaker who was | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
a major driver and creator of modern Ireland. He bestrode the narrow | :05:04. | :05:11. | |
world like a colossus. But Mr Speaker could I welcome the | :05:12. | :05:16. | |
Secretary of State's statement and his reference to the view that a | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
comprehensive inquiry is needed urgently. There are deep tensions | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
there in the government. Does the Secretary of State except that while | :05:26. | :05:30. | |
RHI may have been the last straw is at work, the major factor in the | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
current crisis was the UK but for Brexit against the wishes of the | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
people of Northern Ireland and Scotland, leading to considerable | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
political confusion and damage to the Northern Ireland economy and has | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
in turn played a significant part in compounding political difficulties? | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
I admire the honourable gentleman enormously that I hope you won't | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
take offence if I say he is an incorrigible fellow. I thought his | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
question had concluded that it was only the 1st 3rd that I heard about | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
point. Secretary of State! Can I thank the honourable gentleman for | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
highlighting the news of the sad passing of Doctor Whittaker. At this | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
time I think it's worth reflecting on those who have contributed so | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
much to see the advancement of political stability, the strength of | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
the economy and why I passed my condolences to all who will mourn | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
the passing of TK Whitaker and to join the honourable gentleman in | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
that way. Where I have difference with him, I don't share his analysis | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
in relation to Brexit, I think there are opportunities that can come | :06:39. | :06:41. | |
through for Northern Ireland in relation to what it can be and will | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
be, following the departure of the United Kingdom from the European | :06:47. | :06:50. | |
Union but I am in no doubt of the special circumstances and factors | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
that are very relevant here and while -- why I will continue to | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
advocate agree strongly in the interests of Northern Ireland to get | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
the best possible outcome. I was going to Astro Mr Speaker for an | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
urgent question today relating to the investigation and prosecution of | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
veterans but I was to rid because of the events of last night. But with | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
the Secretary of State informed the House about what measures he thinks | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
will happen now is the result of this, to stop this very 1-sided | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
judicial process? I'm grateful to my honourable friend for his point and | :07:27. | :07:34. | |
I am absolutely clear as to the huge contribution that our Armed Forces | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
and the RUC played to see that we have seen the games in Northern | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
Ireland in recent years and he makes a point that some of the ways in | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
which the system operates within the moment, I think there is a need for | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
greater proportionality, greater balance within the system and that | :07:53. | :07:54. | |
is precisely what I think the Stormont House Agreement and bodies | :07:55. | :07:58. | |
will provide. Not withstanding current events, I remain committed | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
in terms of taking that forward and leading to a public face in relation | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
to that work which I judge is the right next step. There has to be an | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
independent investigation and transparent investigation into the | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
failings of RHI but is this not a symptom of a wider problem? Which is | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
a breakdown of mutual trust and respect between the majority parties | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
in Northern Ireland. Leaders do not have to be friends. But in the | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
nature of the constitutional arrangements in Northern Ireland | :08:29. | :08:32. | |
there has to be mutual respect and trust and is in this purely a | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
symptom of a breakdown of that, do not need to see leaders who are | :08:37. | :08:39. | |
committed to putting personal differences aside in the interests | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
of the institutions? I say to the honourable gentleman and he may have | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
noticed what I said in my statement that obviously the focus has been an | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
RHI but there are other issues that have come through from this and | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
indeed in the letter that Mr McGuinness published yesterday he | :08:59. | :09:00. | |
highlighted a number of those things. That's why I make the point | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
at this time of parties coming together, working together in the | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
best interests of Northern Ireland, given so much opportunity that | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
reside there and having that focus on the big issues that are in the | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
best interests of Northern Ireland. If there are constructive talks in | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
the next few days with the Secretary of State be willing to extend the | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
7-day period before an election is called? As I've indicated below is | :09:24. | :09:31. | |
quite clear in terms of the 7-day time period and I must act within a | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
reasonable period following that. Obviously if the time period lapses | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
I will need to consider the position very carefully at that point in | :09:41. | :09:45. | |
time. But I am under that statutory duty and I will follow through on | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
that. Alistair Carmichael. This is not the 1st time the institutions | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
have been brought to the brink. Each time it requires the leadership to | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
bring them back. Principally that leadership has to come from the | :09:59. | :10:00. | |
parties in Northern Ireland themselves but there is a role from | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
leadership from the government here and the Secretary of State. He has | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
the power under the 2005 act to constitute a public inquiry into the | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
handling of the Renewable Heat Incentive itself and will he do so | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
and as he fights his way through this was he give an undertaking that | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
he will speak to all parties in Northern Ireland not adjust to the | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
DUP and Sinn Fein? On the last point I said to the right honourable | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
gentleman that I had a round of calls yesterday evening to the | :10:30. | :10:32. | |
opposition parties, the main opposition parties in Northern | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
Ireland and will continue to maintain that contact with parties | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
at Stormont. In respect to this point in relation to RHI and the | :10:43. | :10:46. | |
nature of an inquiry, I absolutely remain of the view that the best | :10:47. | :10:53. | |
solution that a way forward for this be found within Northern Ireland. | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
Taking his point in relation to issues of leadership, actually | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
showing that the devolved institutions are able to deal with | :11:02. | :11:03. | |
the challenges that are there and that is where my focus will be in | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
the days ahead. My honourable and gallant friend for Newbury has ably | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
expressed the dismay at the grotesquely partisan and inequitable | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
decision to instruct Police Service of Northern Ireland to start | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
receiving retired British service personnel whilst amnestied former | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
terrorists freely walk the streets. On the government bring forward | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
legislation urgently to offer them at least the same protection as the | :11:31. | :11:37. | |
amnestied terrorists undeservedly enjoy? I can say to my honourable | :11:38. | :11:46. | |
friend that there are no amnesties. We have been very clear on this in | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
relation to Fort was the on the run scheme as it was known and Lady | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
Justice Hallett's report in 2014 concluded they never amounted to an | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
immunity from prosecution but my honourable friend makes a broader | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
point in relation to the need for a proportionate alert approach between | :12:04. | :12:09. | |
legacy to ensure that all aspects are investigated properly, rather | :12:10. | :12:13. | |
than looking at 1 side rather than the other side. That is precisely | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
the approach I think be taken forward. Thank you Mr Speaker, we | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
have a debate later on the serious subject. And can I say to the | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
Secretary of State we are going to have more talks, let's deal with | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
this issue once and for all, it's unacceptable that veterans of the | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
armed Forces who served the Crown are waiting on the knock at the door | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
whilst the terrorists walk free. I say to the honourable gentleman I | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
know the interests he has taken in this issue on legacy over many, many | :12:45. | :12:49. | |
years. And I agree it's totally unfair that the alleged mistakes of | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
soldiers and former police officers should be investigated while at the | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
same time, perpetrators of terrorist atrocities are ignored and their | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
victims forgotten. It is precisely that part that was reflected into | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
the proportionate, balanced, fair and equitable stance taken in | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
relation to the Stormont House Agreement while we continue | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
discussions around the agreement and why are you a wee will move to a | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
public face to take that forward. The historic investigations unit, | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
had not been structured as it was, tour but has agreed that would have | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
failed at the Executive. Now that it has failed to does he share my | :13:30. | :13:32. | |
sadness that the unit was set up as it was and had to investigate | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
chronologically but that servicemen were bound to be at the point of | :13:37. | :13:43. | |
most of its investigations into terrorist sadly don't keep records | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
and they don't respond to letters from the MoD inviting them to | :13:47. | :13:47. | |
unburden themselves. I say to my honourable friend that | :13:48. | :13:57. | |
the historical enquiries unit has not been established a chronological | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
approach he highlights is not in place. Is why I think there is a | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
need for reform and change that was reflected through Stormont house and | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
that is precisely why it is necessary to take this forward and | :14:12. | :14:14. | |
notwithstanding and I believe there is still that opportunity for us to | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
move forward with the parties to see that we can get that political | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
stability in order that these issues can be taken forward precisely for | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
the cross community that resides around us. Does the secretary of | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
State not recognise that it is the hubris of the outgoing First | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
Minister that has brought about the humiliation for our institutions of | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
him now having to contemplate the sort of options he has discussed | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
today? Does he also note that Sinn Fein are saying they have called | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
time on the DUP status quo which now seems to be the description for a | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
fresh start. Will a real fresh start not involve a return to the key | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
precept of the Good Friday agreement that the First Minister and Deputy | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
First Minister are jointly elected by an Assembly and then they might | :15:07. | :15:14. | |
act accordingly and we will avoid these difficulties? I say to the | :15:15. | :15:17. | |
honourable gentleman that where we need to focus at the moment is to | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
use the time available over the course of these coming days to see | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
what resolution can be found. To see how people can work together in the | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
best interests of Northern Ireland because I think there are so many | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
issues at stake here and part of that is how we can move forward and | :15:34. | :15:45. | |
get an enquiry in place and accountability based on the outcome | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
of the enquiry is allowed to happen. Like so many members in the house I | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
have grave concerns at the seems to be a disproportionate and | :15:56. | :15:57. | |
politically motivated investigation of those who believe they were just | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
doing their job. I'm sure my right honourable friend is aware of the | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
concerns but he should know that as the MP representing many members of | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
the serving British Army it is having a measurable effect on | :16:10. | :16:15. | |
recruiting to our Armed Forces. This period of uncertainty could provide | :16:16. | :16:18. | |
an opportunity to set the record straight about what is with and -- | :16:19. | :16:32. | |
what is within the enquiry? I underlie the points I have made | :16:33. | :16:35. | |
about how I think we need to see a change in the system. That the way | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
in which the attention of the state means that cases where for example | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
those who have been murdered as a consequence of terrorist activity is | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
not being pursued. I think there are mechanisms that provide for that. I | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
am intent to take that forward and notwithstanding the current issues, | :16:56. | :17:00. | |
that remains a priority. Could the Secretary of State confirmed that | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
other ministers in the Northern Ireland Executive remain in post and | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
can govern the Northern Ireland Assembly as now and therefore could | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
he exercise maximum discretion to make sure the objectives of the | :17:12. | :17:25. | |
Stormont house agreement are met? I appreciate the viewpoint the right | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
honourable gentleman makes from that direct experience when he served as | :17:31. | :17:33. | |
a minister in Northern Ireland. He is right that the relevant Northern | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
Ireland ministers remain in place in the Executive. There is this | :17:39. | :17:43. | |
situation we find ourselves in, but stability can be maintained through | :17:44. | :17:46. | |
this period, albeit that their actions will be limited. Nonetheless | :17:47. | :17:52. | |
that stability remains we need to continue to work with the Executive | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
at this time to find a solution. I serve twice in Northern Ireland | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
during my time in the Army so I know about the challenges faced. I must | :18:02. | :18:08. | |
echo the contributions of colleagues who have discouraged the Secretary | :18:09. | :18:12. | |
of State from allowing investigations of British troops. No | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
matter how well designed, these investigations break the covenant of | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
those who are serving and who have served in our Armed Forces. Can I | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
encourage my honourable friend to block these investigations right | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
away? I'm not able to intervene. The wall of law issues here and there | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
for the prosecutorial and other aspects that sit around this come | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
into play. I am concerned about the balance of effort and the need to | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
ensure that there are proper investigations. They are following | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
the evidence rather than anything else and therefore reform is needed. | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
The situation as it is at the moment is wrong and has to change and that | :18:51. | :18:59. | |
is what I'm committed to doing. The previous Prime Minister intervened | :19:00. | :19:01. | |
by writing letters which got a lot of people off the hook. Could he | :19:02. | :19:08. | |
confirmed that in the absence of the Northern Ireland Executive which | :19:09. | :19:11. | |
will probably now be for a period of months, that the Secretary of State | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
will assume all responsibility and power in relation to have the Brexit | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
negotiations applied to Northern Ireland and they will not allow | :19:21. | :19:25. | |
Northern Ireland to be prejudiced by the petulance of those who have | :19:26. | :19:34. | |
walked away? I am very clear about my role and response to Article 50. | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
The work I have done over many months to engage with all aspects of | :19:39. | :19:42. | |
Northern Ireland and continue to do so and will continue to articulate | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
firmly and clearly within Whitehall and elsewhere as to the best | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
interests of Northern Ireland through the Brexit negotiations. | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
That is strengthened by having a functioning capable Executive to | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
support that work, to be able to work with the UK Government to | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
ensure we get the best possible deal for Northern Ireland through those | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
negotiations. The Secretary of State would have received correspondence | :20:07. | :20:27. | |
from me recently. He said that... When was his predecessor first made | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
aware of this abuse? The point to make about this was a -- that it was | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
a devolved decision and it is not something the UK Government has had | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
a direct role in and that is why made the point I did and therefore I | :20:46. | :20:53. | |
think his questions are more directed towards the ongoing enquiry | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
about getting answers about decisions made around the RHI and I | :20:59. | :21:00. | |
think it is that poker that needs to be given. -- focus. This is about a | :21:01. | :21:19. | |
political wish list from Sinn Fein. From the First Minister's to view it | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
is a red herring. About the legacy issue, will members of Sinn Fein | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
stands aside and resigned when we are investigating the past? I know | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
that the honourable gentleman will know that the Stormont house | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
agreement provides an important framework that was agreed by all of | :21:42. | :21:45. | |
the parties in relation to how best to respond to these issues of the | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
past. That is where my focus annotation is and remains. I | :21:51. | :22:04. | |
will continue to support and encourage that. The Secretary of | :22:05. | :22:13. | |
State will be aware of the list of issues that the Deputy First | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
Minister had in his resignation yesterday. Can the Secretary of | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
State confirm to me and to this house that he will not be weak and | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
Her Majesty 's government will not be weak in any negotiations with | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
Sinn Fein to allow the rewriting of history? I will not be party to any | :22:29. | :22:37. | |
rewriting of history and have said that on a number of occasions in | :22:38. | :22:41. | |
relation to the issues of the past. What we need to focus on is the time | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
at hand to see that we are able to find a way forward from the very | :22:46. | :22:49. | |
difficult situation we are now presented with. We need to see | :22:50. | :22:58. | |
Northern Ireland moving forward and we use this time to bring people | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
together rather than looking at things that separate and divide, and | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
obviously using these days to focus on how that trust and confidence can | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
be re-established and working with the parties to do that. Fundamental | :23:10. | :23:15. | |
to the political institutions in Northern Ireland where the | :23:16. | :23:18. | |
principles of power-sharing, partnership and respect for | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
political difference. In the last number of weeks we have seen the | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
disappearing and the withering away of the principle of power-sharing. | :23:26. | :23:33. | |
You walked away from it! With the Secretary of State ensure in his | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
discussions with political parties in Northern Ireland that those | :23:39. | :23:42. | |
principles are adhered to and that everybody comes back to the | :23:43. | :23:50. | |
principle of power-sharing? I think the important part of the political | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
settlement within Northern Ireland is that fact that it works for all | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
communities across Northern Ireland, and that was very much at the heart | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
of the agreements that have been reached and indeed the work that I | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
think needs to continue to be taken forward in that respect and | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
therefore it is why I make the point about the need to look at those | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
things that bind people together. How we use this time at hand rather | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
than the risk out what may be a divisive election that six to create | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
more difference and actually makes that job harder. The Secretary of | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
State mentioned legacy issues in his statement. Can he give the house on | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
practical details on how he will progress that and hand dealer-macro | :24:37. | :24:51. | |
-- and can he talk about the roundtable meeting? I need to engage | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
with the relevant political parties and establish the right way that we | :24:55. | :25:03. | |
can facilitate a way forward that can hopefully be achieved without | :25:04. | :25:16. | |
calling an election. On his bike in relation to legacy, I've underlined | :25:17. | :25:20. | |
that I want to establish the necessary political consensus to be | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
able to move forward and the next step on that is a more public phase | :25:24. | :25:28. | |
of that. An element to bring all of Northern Ireland's and to have their | :25:29. | :25:34. | |
say over proposals. That is the next point I had to take. That is the | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
Secretary of State recall that two years ago Sinn Fein plunge the | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
institutions into crisis over the implementation of welfare reform and | :25:44. | :25:51. | |
cost the Executive over ?100 million. In a bizarre irony the | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
decision to resign and walk out of the Northern Ireland Executive means | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
there will be no Assembly to pass them mitigation measures that were | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
due from the Stormont House agreement. Sinn Fein will be | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
delivering the bedroom tax in Northern Ireland in six weeks times. | :26:08. | :26:14. | |
I'm not sure I detected a question in the stream of consciousness from | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
the honourable member. Secretary of State. I am in no doubt as to be | :26:22. | :26:26. | |
tensions that exist at the moment, but I do look back on those days in | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
relation to welfare where there were differences. They were very strongly | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
held views and yet a way forward was established and at this time I do | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
call upon the parties to reflect on that, to reflect on that experience, | :26:42. | :26:44. | |
to work together and to use this time now to find a solution. Thank | :26:45. | :26:56. | |
you very much, Mr Speaker. We all want to see a stronger society where | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
there is respect for everyone, but we need to have a completely new | :27:00. | :27:05. | |
look at this. Get it back to the Belfast agreement so we don't go | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
round and round in circles and if I can end by saying can we get back to | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
that? Please remember that Einstein said that insanity is doing the same | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
thing over and over again and expecting different results. I know | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
the honourable gentleman has put down some thoughts and I read his | :27:24. | :27:29. | |
article at the weekend, but I think the primary focus now is to see how | :27:30. | :27:34. | |
we can use this short time ahead to work together, to build together, to | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
see that we are able to get through this current difficulty and ensure | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
that we can look to a bright, positive prosperous Northern Ireland | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
because ultimately that is what we are about. That is what is at stake | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
here and why I will certainly be doing all I can to establish if a | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
way forward can be found, a solution can be created with that intense. | :28:00. | :28:07. | |
Point of order Mr Stephen Dowty. I wanted to make a clarification | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
regarding a question I asked earlier in the Foreign Office questions and | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
asked advice on the rizz matter. The Foreign Office minister appeared to | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
be confused over what I was referring to in my question. I was | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
referring to his own statement on July 2016. Four errors have been | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
made regarding Parliamentary questions and the issue over whether | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
the UK Government had assessed violation of human rights in Saudi | :28:38. | :28:49. | |
Arabia. I'm concerned that the government has tried to prevent | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
scrutiny over what they know about Saudi Arabia's activities. The | :28:53. | :29:02. | |
member from Leeds is was told that the ministry had acted immediately. | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
However a Freedom of information requests released just before | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
Christmas reveals otherwise. It is important to make you aware, Mr | :29:12. | :29:18. | |
Speaker, that this information was only released when the government | :29:19. | :29:24. | |
were ordered as they were in breach of the Freedom of Information Act. | :29:25. | :29:29. | |
This information reveals that not only did the Minister and indeed the | :29:30. | :29:32. | |
Foreign Secretary nerd there have been errors in information as early | :29:33. | :29:38. | |
as the 28th of June 2016, they then took nearly a month to provide that | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
information to Parliament. They only provided it in the routing statement | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
on the 21st of July 20 16. It makes clear that they were worried about | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
the views of Parliament and the courts. This constitutes a potential | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
breach of the ministerial code and the courtesy of this house over | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
providing information timely when errors have been made. Can I seek | :30:03. | :30:05. | |
your guidance on how I might pursue the matter and find out whether a | :30:06. | :30:14. | |
The ungrateful to the honourable to run for his point of order and has | :30:15. | :30:20. | |
courtesy in giving me add once at notice of his intention to raise it. | :30:21. | :30:27. | |
I am grateful. It is the exclusive responsibility of those ministers, | :30:28. | :30:30. | |
if a minister comes subsequently to realise that he or she has dared in | :30:31. | :30:37. | |
saying something incorrect or even in giving and inadvertently | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
misleading impression by failing to include in an answer information | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
that should have been abolished it is a responsibility of that minister | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
to correct the record. -- erred. The honourable gentleman asks how he can | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
best recede in this matter. My instinct is he should if he feels | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
that there has been a potential breach of the ministerial code, | :31:01. | :31:07. | |
right directly to the Prime Minister for it is for the Prime Minister | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
under our existing constitutional arrangements to decide whether to | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
refer an alleged and claimed breach to the independent adviser on | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
ministerial interests. That therefore is the course that I | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
recommend to him. It may avail him, if it does not, and the matter in | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
his mind or perhaps that of others remains unresolved, and he feels the | :31:35. | :31:40. | |
House is in the possession of wrong information that hasn't been | :31:41. | :31:44. | |
corrected, he can always return to the matter by Dave Radzi of means. | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
We believe that there are for now. -- by a variety of means. We come to | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
the 10 Minute Rule Motion for which the honourable lady has been | :31:58. | :32:01. | |
patiently waiting. Christina Rees. Thank you. I beg leave to introduce | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
a bill to make provision for the creation of mutual guarantee | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
societies. For the membership is small and BD sized businesses, for | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
the purpose of lending to and by such business and for the operation | :32:19. | :32:23. | |
and for connected purposes. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am a Labour and | :32:24. | :32:29. | |
cooperative member of Parliament, I am proud that I am introducing this | :32:30. | :32:32. | |
bill at the start of the co-operative party centenary year. | :32:33. | :32:39. | |
My thanks also to cooperative UK and Philip Ross for their work in | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
pressing the case for this legislative change. For 100 years | :32:43. | :32:48. | |
the co-operative party has been putting forward the case for more | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
co-operation in our country. I believe that correct link the | :32:52. | :32:57. | |
legislative anomaly of the UK not benefiting from mutual guarantee | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
societies is not just another step towards expanding co-operation but | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
it would also importantly ensure that the increase the level of SME | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
Hank lending. Put simply, my bill seeks to harness the positive power | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
of co-operation in order to increase SME lending in this country. -- | :33:18. | :33:25. | |
anchor. SMEs are vital to the economy and our major drivers of | :33:26. | :33:27. | |
employment and wealth for the country. Ensuring they have access | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
to the right type of finance at the right time is essential to ensure it | :33:34. | :33:36. | |
they maximise their growth potential. And develop new job | :33:37. | :33:44. | |
opportunities. An economy which allows for SME investment and | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
financial system prepared to lend to SMEs is essential. House of Commons | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
research shows that while SME lending is for the 1st time since | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
the global economic crisis starting to become net positive, I look at | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
the broader Bank of England credit conditions survey 2016 makes less | :34:04. | :34:12. | |
positive reading. It shows the availability of credit remains | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
static at best and indeed the proportion of loan applications for | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
small businesses which were improved, approved, declined and | :34:19. | :34:26. | |
quarter to and caught 3 of 2016. It also shows this decline is | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
predicated to continue. This trend must be reversed. I believe the | :34:34. | :34:37. | |
creation of mutual guarantee societies can only be part of the | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
solution. My bill will allow the creation of mutual guarantee | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
societies which are private guarantee institutions created by | :34:47. | :34:55. | |
beneficiary SMEs. Whilst there are different forms of mutual guarantee | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
societies across Europe, they typically share a cooperative or | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
mutual status. This means the mutual guarantee society's capital is | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
provided directly by the SMEs that apply for a loan guarantee, in form | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
of cooperative or mutual shares. Each member has an equal footing | :35:18. | :35:22. | |
right and participate in electing the General Assembly and board of | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
directors of the mutual guarantee society. -- equal voting. SMEs can | :35:26. | :35:35. | |
negotiate a better deal from banks whilst banks, the underpinning of | :35:36. | :35:38. | |
the mutual guarantee provides partial security an otherwise | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
unsecured enterprise lending. The risk is lower, so the price of money | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
is lower, the deal flow is greater, underpinned by peer review from SME | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
members so access to capital is easier. A guarantee provided by a | :35:57. | :36:03. | |
mutual guarantee society on behalf of the SME to the bank, replaces | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
this collateral, enabling the bank to grant the loan. The guarantee is | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
a financial commitment by the society to repay a certain | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
percentage of the loan if the SME member cannot honour its payment. In | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
many ways this bill is a no-brainer. Mutual guarantee societies provide | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
access to finance, achieved better credit conditions, provide | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
assessment of the companies in tangible and on qualitative | :36:39. | :36:44. | |
elements, serve as a bridge between SMEs and financial entities and can | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
provide better advice and supervision in financial management. | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
The creation of these societies in the UK would also be good for the | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
banks. Among other aspects they read Jews the bank's overall risk, | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
provide quality of information for the bank, provide more detailed risk | :37:06. | :37:12. | |
assessment at no cost and allow them to work with supervised and reliable | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
financial intermediaries. The OECD concluded in 23rd team that mutual | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
guarantee schemes represent a key policy to to address the SME | :37:27. | :37:34. | |
financing gap. Whilst limiting the burden on public finances. The UK is | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
almost unique in not raking use of mutual guarantee societies. In | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
Europe, estimates are around 2,000,000 guarantees have been made | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
for a value of ?70,000,000,000 to over 2,000,000 customers. This | :37:52. | :37:58. | |
represents around 8% of all SMEs in the European Union that have | :37:59. | :38:01. | |
benefited from the activity of mutual guarantee societies. The UK | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
has no mutual guarantee market for SMEs to improve access to finance | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
because of inappropriate regulatory barriers. The provision of mutual | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
guarantees by SMEs is indicative as requiring the full regulatory burden | :38:19. | :38:25. | |
of being and approved insurer and other surety guarantee. With far | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
higher capital requirements and regulatory burdens as a result than | :38:31. | :38:37. | |
any other EU country. Other countries have been able to specify | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
mutual guarantee societies in transposing EU directives so bad | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
they are regulated in a distinct and appropriate way. Because the UK has | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
no such arrangement, we essentially have regulatory gold plated | :38:52. | :39:01. | |
blocks... Following work with the cooperative sector in 2012, the FSA | :39:02. | :39:08. | |
clarified that the best fit for any mutual guarantee society founded in | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
terms of current regulated activities under current | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
legislation. But this imposes significantly greater capital | :39:22. | :39:23. | |
requirements than is the case in counties which have a this book | :39:24. | :39:27. | |
scheme for mutual guarantee societies. And is not a particularly | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
good fit anyway. My bill changes this. This bill provides a | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
definition of the mutual guarantee society and outs mutual guarantees | :39:39. | :39:41. | |
to the list of regulated activities as set out in the financial services | :39:42. | :39:50. | |
and markets act, 2000, regulated activities order 2001. Despite the | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
problems and barriers in the regulatory system there is 1 UK ace | :39:58. | :40:01. | |
member of the European Association mutual guarantee societies, the | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
British business bank. This institution created to drive SME | :40:09. | :40:13. | |
lending may not be the type of mutual which I believe will be | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
created using the legislative change contained within this bill, however, | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
I believe it neatly demonstrates the point that mutual guarantee | :40:25. | :40:26. | |
societies must be part of the answer to the question of how we increase | :40:27. | :40:32. | |
SME lending. I hope we are pushing at an open door. I know that in | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
written answers to my honourable friend the Member for Wolverhampton | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
Southwest, Treasuries ministers stated officials plan to meet with | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
the SCA to discuss the possible development of mutual guarantee | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
societies. I believe this bill will create a welcome you chill addition | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
to the financial services sector and will allow the UK to benefit from | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
the SME lending in the same way that other countries have done for many | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
years. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. The question is that the | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
that opinion say aye. To the contrary no. The ayes habit. You | :41:12. | :41:25. | |
will prepare and bring in the bill? Gavin sugar, Lucy Powell, Stephen | :41:26. | :41:34. | |
Dowty, Adrian Bailey. Gareth Thomas. John Woodcock. Jonathan Edwards. | :41:35. | :41:40. | |
Tristan Matheson. Hannah Borrowdale and myself. Christina Rees. | :41:41. | :42:12. | |
Mutual guarantee societies built. 2nd reading of what day? The 24th of | :42:13. | :42:27. | |
February. The 24th of February. The clerk will now proceed to read the | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
orders of the day. Commonwealth Development Corporation Bill not | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
amended lips is to be considered. We begin with new clause 1. With which | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
it will be convenient to consider the other clauses and amendments | :42:46. | :42:47. | |
grouped together on the selection paper. Kate is more to move. Thank | :42:48. | :42:55. | |
you. I rise to move new clause 1 and to speak on the new clauses | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
amendments on which my name is included. We on this side of the | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
House are unswerving in our belief that the UK must continue to spend 0 | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
points 7% of gross national income on overseas aid. It is imperative | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
that the government delivers this aid in a way that is accountable, | :43:15. | :43:18. | |
insurers are you from money and delivers on the UK's development | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
object is. While we support the aims of the bill given that it is going | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
into report stage without amendment, we remain concerned about the lack | :43:29. | :43:33. | |
of safeguards. I speak to new clause two Fritsch asks that no increase of | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
limit is given without a report or business case. I would like to talk | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
to new clause 3 and 9 which is I believe at the heart of the work of | :43:44. | :43:51. | |
David. It leads the UK's work to end extreme poverty. We on the front | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
bench are asking the government that the Minister must be satisfied that | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
any new investment enabled by any proposed increase in the limit must | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
have a significant impact on the reduction in poverty. I said to the | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
Minister that the department must be at the forefront of tackling double | :44:09. | :44:09. | |
poverty reduction. It is vital that bolstering CDC | :44:10. | :44:20. | |
resources does not mean that funds for humanitarian aid in places like | :44:21. | :44:26. | |
Nigeria, Yemen and Syria and other parts of the world facing grave | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
humanitarian crises is not reduce. Can the Minister commit to ring | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
fencing those funds so that those in need receive help. Long-term | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
investment and establishing an economy to kick-start growth and | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
jobs are crucial to any credible development programme. But a | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
development programme should at its core be a coalition of long-term | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
investment and short-term relief and the consequences of losing sight of | :44:57. | :45:02. | |
that latter element in the future would be grave indeed. Just as the | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
UK have a duty to help lay the foundations for secure sustainable | :45:08. | :45:13. | |
economies in the poorest every is a risk that few are willing to take, | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
the UK also have a duty to assist those bearing people. Conflict, | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
climate change and food insecurity. As laid out during the second | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
reading of the build transparency should be the driving force behind | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
any shifting focus of the aid budget. I speak to new clause four | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
and new clause eight. It is vital that taxpayers money is not only | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
spent effectively but also as transparently as possible. To this | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
end it is incumbent on the government to put in place | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
mechanisms that ensure maximum visibility regarding wet aid money | :45:50. | :45:54. | |
is being spent and that minimises public scepticism. We all know that | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
transparency is something that defeat does very well indeed. I'm | :46:01. | :46:12. | |
grateful for you giving way. She was talking about balance. I think it is | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
fair to make the point isn't it that CDC's proportion of development | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
budget for its type is an FTI is actually lower than comparable is up | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
4% compared to the French FTI of 12% and the Dutch at 30%. Just for | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
proportion's say, even with the increase, the UK are still spending | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
a large amounts on foreign aid the most of our peers and it will be a | :46:40. | :46:47. | |
smaller proportion. The honourable member makes a valuable point but it | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
still needs scrutiny and that is what I am laying out here today. We | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
all know that transparency is something that is done well. Its | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
performance in the aid transparency index represents an international | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
gold standard in this regard but historically the same cannot be said | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
the CDC and it is the utmost importance that the proportion of | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
the ODA budget that is channelled through CDCB subject to the same | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
checks on outcomes and value for money to which defeated holds | :47:17. | :47:29. | |
itself. That should be an agreed framework that is reached with the | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
independent commission for a impact and CDC and proper measurements of | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
outcome on an annual basis will be a welcome addition to the bill. Madame | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
Devitt is Speaker relating to new clause one new clause eight, | :47:44. | :47:52. | |
separate financial centres where countries do not have robust... We | :47:53. | :48:04. | |
on this side of the house know the importance of addressing and | :48:05. | :48:07. | |
tackling CDC's use of tax havens. This Madame deputies Speaker cannot | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
be understated. Whilst we may have heard assurances from the chief | :48:16. | :48:29. | |
Executive CDC that using offshore investors, more is needed to ensure | :48:30. | :48:36. | |
transparency on this point. We need clear legislative safeguards. That | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
is why the front bench will take new clause one to the boat. New clause | :48:40. | :48:48. | |
one with buyers -- requires a thorough analysis of CDC's use... | :48:49. | :48:57. | |
I'd like to make some headway. Whether countries in question have | :48:58. | :49:11. | |
robust -- don't have robust centres... Make way. Would she not | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
agree with me that the changes made to CDC five years ago where CDC was | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
encouraged to make direct investments in developing countries | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
contrary to the preceding situation where it was making investments in | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
funds which were situated offshore were in fact a major step forward in | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
the regard that she is seeking? The honourable member makes a valid | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
point and as I go on in my speech I will touch on that but I have two | :49:41. | :49:45. | |
said that regardless of any development, we must always be | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
robust and we must also be able to show taxpayers that we have a system | :49:50. | :49:55. | |
in place which is transparent and accountable and that for me is that | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
the forefront of this speech and of our objections to the bill itself. I | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
would like to seek assurances from the Secretary of State that the | :50:06. | :50:13. | |
Minister will... The minister, not the Secretary of State, will support | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
such safeguards. It must be applauded that the whole ethos of | :50:18. | :50:21. | |
CDC has been transformed since it was the subject of widespread | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
controversy some years ago. It is a testament to the organisation's | :50:26. | :50:31. | |
willingness to change that bad reaction and criticism to a more | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
positive institution and an overhaul of the systems in place. These | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
efforts were praised by the recent NA oh report which assessed CDC's | :50:44. | :50:57. | |
progress. -- NAO. It was suckling to read that CDC has been successful in | :50:58. | :51:04. | |
adapting its strategy in accordance with the NAO's recommendations, | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
including frameworks to limit excessive pay. Rather than -- it was | :51:10. | :51:24. | |
encouraging to learn that CDC has not only met but exceeded that | :51:25. | :51:33. | |
targets agreed with DFID and has improved its procedures for the | :51:34. | :51:35. | |
documented fraud and corruption. Whilst we on the front bench praise | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
CDC from making the changes we must not forget the recent NAO report was | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
by no means unequivocally positive and did in fact highlights | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
significant areas for improvement. Allow me to directly quote from the | :51:52. | :51:55. | |
report from a passage examining the efficiency of CDC's methods of | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
capturing development impact. The report says it remains a significant | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
challenge for CDC to demonstrate its Ottoman objective of creating jobs | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
are making a lasting difference to people's lies in some of the world's | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
poorest places. Given the plans to invest further in CDC a clearer | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
picture of actual deployment impact will help to demonstrate the value | :52:20. | :52:28. | |
for money for the Department's investment. That's quite some | :52:29. | :52:33. | |
statement. It's a significant challenge the CDC to demonstrate how | :52:34. | :52:36. | |
effectively it does the very thing it was setup to do. I'm happy to | :52:37. | :52:43. | |
give way. The honourable lady refers to a quote which talks about the | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
challenges of capturing impact. That is an ongoing challenge, but in | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
terms of efficiency which is what she referred to. The NAO report also | :52:56. | :53:04. | |
said that the CDC has through tight cost controls and closer alignment | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
with the departments objectives and now has an efficient and effective | :53:11. | :53:15. | |
operating model. Would she not agree that that is testament to the | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
improvements made to CDC's work over the past few years? The comments | :53:20. | :53:27. | |
honourable member has made, in my opening speech I did say that CDC | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
has improved, but that same report has said it is still very hard to | :53:34. | :53:40. | |
know how the impact on development has been demonstrated. That piece of | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
work still needs to be done. It's not totally scathing, but we have to | :53:45. | :53:54. | |
see whether or not things are transparent and if they were, those | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
on this side of the house would not be saying what we are saying now. | :53:59. | :54:11. | |
There has been an issue of sectors, including fossil fuel and health | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
care which charge at the point of contact. The building of real | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
estate, mineral extraction and work in the oil sector. If DFID's | :54:23. | :54:30. | |
investment in CDC is to increase, the challenge must be urgently | :54:31. | :54:38. | |
addressed and resolved. In spite of CDC's welcome improvements | :54:39. | :54:40. | |
recommendation show we should not forget it remains a work in | :54:41. | :54:45. | |
progress. This organisation to demonstrate transparently and | :54:46. | :54:48. | |
robustly that it is achieving its objectives and with that in mind we | :54:49. | :54:52. | |
cannot regard this bill as the end of the process there is no room for | :54:53. | :55:00. | |
complacency within CDC or DFID over the need to further alter processes. | :55:01. | :55:09. | |
Given the scale of the increase of the funding proposed by DFID and the | :55:10. | :55:17. | |
resulting consequences that this will have for the UK development | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
programme and for the developing countries it supports, it is right | :55:23. | :55:26. | |
that this bill is robustly challenged and meticulously | :55:27. | :55:28. | |
scrutinised where it is found lacking and stringent precautions | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
appended to it when necessary. I speak to new clause ten which lays | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
out that any proposed increase in the current limit will not only in | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
any one calendar year constitute more than 5% of total official | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
development assistance. Happy to give way. I'm grateful to the | :55:48. | :55:55. | |
honourable lady for giving way. I just want to take her back to the | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
point where I was trying to intervene where she was listing | :56:00. | :56:05. | |
remuneration to clause seven and sectors which she feels should be | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
excluded. Would she not agree in specifically mentioning education | :56:09. | :56:14. | |
providers that trusty end-user as an exception. -- charge the end-user as | :56:15. | :56:33. | |
an exception. For many children the only way of getting any education is | :56:34. | :56:37. | |
provided by these means. The honourable member makes a valid | :56:38. | :56:43. | |
points, but what I'm talking about his private education where somebody | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
who has no money has to pay for education and I don't think in a | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
developing country that should be what we are transported because we | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
don't have that year. If someone was the pay to go to university, there | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
are challenges around that. I'm talking about primary education | :57:00. | :57:06. | |
ideally. I'll give way. The amendment is in my name and I will | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
speak about it in due course, but would she agreed that there is an | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
important choice here for DFID. Previously they invested in | :57:16. | :57:18. | |
promoting free health care and education and making it available to | :57:19. | :57:25. | |
all people and removing use the -- user fees. The honourable member | :57:26. | :57:36. | |
makes a valid point. While some decide of the house I need to make | :57:37. | :57:44. | |
some progress. We remain positive about the bill to achieve its aim to | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
improve the quality of life of people in some of the least | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
developed countries in the world, but safeguards need to be in place | :57:56. | :57:58. | |
so this can be achieved and we need to retain the right to withdraw our | :57:59. | :58:05. | |
support for the bill if the government has not made sufficient | :58:06. | :58:14. | |
progress. Thank you. The question is that new clause one B read a second | :58:15. | :58:28. | |
time. Flip Drummond. Order. It is the beginning of a long-term. It has | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
been a long Christmas holiday, but may I remind people that if they | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
want to speak it is really easy. You just have too. Flip Drummond. I was | :58:38. | :58:43. | |
expecting the minister to respond to the original one. I didn't realise I | :58:44. | :58:53. | |
was speaking next. There was a complete disconnect between this | :58:54. | :58:56. | |
side of the house and the other side of the house which is unusual in the | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
area of overseas development which is broadly consensual. There is a | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
divide and we have seen it in the amendments tabled. New clause one | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
and eight would restrict the ability of the Secretary of State to drive | :59:11. | :59:14. | |
the CDC forward. This bill is that the first stage in a process which | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
the house will have oversight of the rout of boosting an existing proven | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
a delivery mechanism. This bill enables DFID to provide it with the | :59:26. | :59:33. | |
necessary funding. It does not automatically give the CDC any money | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
and only the first state of checks and balances before money will be | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
provided. So the target of those new clauses which will restrict the | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
CDC's ability to use external financial sectors is misplaced. We | :59:48. | :00:00. | |
will help underdeveloped markets to develop, which is our aim. CDC has | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
not invested in a particular way to dodge tax or get round regulatory | :00:07. | :00:14. | |
framework. The financial and revelatory frameworks of developing | :00:15. | :00:17. | |
countries will never develop if we treat them with suspicion and starve | :00:18. | :00:21. | |
them of investment. The purpose of the CDC is that going to places | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
where conventional investors fear to tread. We should not try to prevent | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
that in legislation and I hope that there will be a time when the | :00:30. | :00:37. | |
regulatory system will be robust and we won't have to go offshore. We are | :00:38. | :00:38. | |
not at that point yet. Does she not accept there is a | :00:39. | :00:51. | |
double point here? The Secretary of State issued a letter... Making it | :00:52. | :00:59. | |
clear that they shouldn't be investing in tax havens yet appears | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
unwilling to apply that same to CDC which is in receipt of taxpayer | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
funding. Isn't there a double standard? Because we are investing | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
in difficult areas where it may not be robust systems in place already | :01:13. | :01:17. | |
plus the CDC has clear guidelines as to further money is going, we can | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
track it more easily than you can track it another aid agency. With my | :01:22. | :01:25. | |
honourable friend give way? Would she agree that the issue is not so | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
much the offshore centres that are invested in by funds because you are | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
getting funds from other D of jurisdictions but the tax paid for | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
the activity which are undertaken in the country and in that respect, the | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
investments that CDC makes our excellent and provide major tax | :01:45. | :01:50. | |
revenues of billions of dollars a year for the country's Treasuries. | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
Can I thank my honourable friend for a clear explanation of that which | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
beats up what I said earlier. In the case of raising investment limits, | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
we have a number of clauses before us which would hamper the CDC. We | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
have already extensively debated the need to extend the limit and we had | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
assurances from the Minister and from the CDC itself that the | :02:13. | :02:15. | |
business case for further capital will be clearly made. We will have | :02:16. | :02:21. | |
the stroll. The true document this year backed by a CDC analysis on | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
development impact and we will have those before any additional money | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
goes through CDC. The focus of spending I agree with the Minister | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
that it must be delegated to CDC and DFID, specific investments made. | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
That would give government oversight of it and ensure sustainable | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
development goals are at the heart of it. Or countries and sectors | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
limit... I believe it would hamper the CDC. Yes... Does she agree that | :02:52. | :03:02. | |
supporting the CDC is absolutely vital if we are going to achieve the | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
global goals with sustainable development by 2013. We need to | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
mobilise the private sector to fill the annual financing gap of about 2 | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
1/2 trillion dollars every single year. My honourable friend makes an | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
excellent point, 1 of the reasons why I'm so passionate about the CDC, | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
we need to build the capacity of developing countries and I think in | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
my 1st speech on this subject I said if you give a man a fish he deleted, | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
but if you give him a fishing rod that is a friend for life and that's | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
the philosophy behind the CDC. There are also circumstances where there | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
are relatively development countries hosting much poor ones. Misplacing | :03:48. | :03:53. | |
fears about offshore financial centres we shouldn't close any party | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
investment and development, new clause 3, four, 6 and 9 fail in that | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
respect. The amendments before us sure a fundamental weakness and a | :04:05. | :04:06. | |
misunderstanding of the role of the CDC in the world. We put less of our | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
development investment through the CDC that other countries do 3 Kudla | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
bodies as my right honourable friend mentioned. We should be doing more | :04:16. | :04:20. | |
through CDC if we want to develop mature and robust market economies | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
in the developing world which is why I welcome this bill. Bar codes are | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
transparent, flexible and they empower people that take part in | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
them. The aim of our development policy should always encourage | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
self-sufficiency and the development of market economies. As I said in my | :04:38. | :04:42. | |
1st contribution, the CDC is transparent and the ordered report | :04:43. | :04:45. | |
agreed and I championed the philosophy behind the CDC, enabling | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
people to build their own businesses rather than handing out grants. This | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
is an efficient, transparent model and I think we should give this bill | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
wholehearted support and continue to be a major investor in improving the | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
lives of fellow citizens in developing countries. Patrick radio. | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to speak to the amendments in | :05:10. | :05:12. | |
my name and offer support for the opposition party amendments. My | :05:13. | :05:21. | |
amendments are 3 and a new clause 6. I think it's worth saying at the | :05:22. | :05:26. | |
start that no 1 here is arguing that the CDC shouldn't exist. We | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
recognise there is a role for development finance and private | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
investment and as I noted in the secondary din, the Scottish | :05:36. | :05:37. | |
Government has set up its own investment mechanism in Malawi. But | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
even if we did want to change some of the deeper fundamentals, that's | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
not the scope of the bill. The government probably deliberately has | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
presented a very narrow bill with the aim of increasing the statutory | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
limit of its investment and by definition, that's what the | :05:56. | :05:58. | |
investments have to be focused on. I hope the government will see the | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
amendments I put forward and I think the Labour ones, we've tried to | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
respond to concerns expressed in committee about the amount once and | :06:06. | :06:12. | |
it will at least attempt to take them on board. It's now up to the | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
government to respond and indicate how it will take our concerns on | :06:17. | :06:20. | |
board. We all want to work constructively with the government | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
on this, we want to reckon dies and painting the consensus that exists | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
on the importance of aid, the commitment to pursue a .7%. | :06:31. | :06:37. | |
Amendment 3 in my name and 2 and for which are contingent on at get to | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
the heart of the technical aspect of the bill and what the cap investment | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
should be. The government has been repeatedly asked for the reasons | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
behind the figures of 6 billion and 12,000,000,000 in the bill and it | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
still afraid has come up short. The best we've heard is that this is | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
roughly what think is needed or can be managed over the coming years and | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
in the lifetime of this Parliament that could equate to a maximum | :07:03. | :07:10. | |
?2,000,000,000 a year invested from the budget to the CDC and as he | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
repeatedly said, every penny invested into CDC is a penny not | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
investment into other mainstream grassroots, not-for-profit | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
development projects. That is why in the 2nd reading I asked about the | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
use of a formula to link the capital for all budgets and I proposed such | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
a formula in committee. The Minister's 1st concern about the | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
formula is that it would blur the line between stock and flow but the | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
aid budget is a flow, going up and can theoretically go down as well. | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
While I recognise the CDC investment is a stark and wants that is | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
transferred, that's for its days, what the formula doors is ask the | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
government each time that it wants to disburse funds to the CDC to | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
calculate how those funds for the late to its overaged spending in the | :08:00. | :08:07. | |
coming years. -- to its overall spending. Amendment 3 and the | :08:08. | :08:17. | |
continuing amendments take a number of things into account. My | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
calculations based on figures from the House of Commons Library, this | :08:21. | :08:22. | |
formula would allow the government to invest an extra 3,000,000,000 or | :08:23. | :08:28. | |
a total of 4 1/2 billion in the CDC by 2021. Even if the government | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
won't accept this amendment and if we can't persuade enough of its | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
backbenchers to join us in the lobby in support, I hope it will commit to | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
recognising the 6,000,000,000 figure in the current legislation is a | :08:40. | :08:45. | |
maximum and any additional investment will reflect the ebb and | :08:46. | :08:49. | |
flow of water for all ODA calculations in any given spending | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
round. A respective of the caps and limits, much concern has been | :08:55. | :08:57. | |
expressed about the build process overall of how some aspects of CDC | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
resources have been spent in the past and how they will continue to | :09:02. | :09:04. | |
be spent in the future and that's what I seek to address with my new | :09:05. | :09:09. | |
clause 6. I think this is particularly important in the | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
context of increasing and potentially quadruplet resources | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
overall available to the CDC. I welcome the range of amendments | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
brought forward at committee and hear today attempting to place | :09:21. | :09:23. | |
various conditions on the exercise of the power to increase the limit | :09:24. | :09:27. | |
and as I said at the start, because of the scope of the build my | :09:28. | :09:30. | |
amendments and those from honourable friends in the Labour Party have to | :09:31. | :09:35. | |
relate to the limit of 6,000,000,000 to 12,000,000,000, try as we might | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
under the terms, it's not been impossible for us to find a way to | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
attach conditions. The government has indicated its timetable for | :09:47. | :09:50. | |
using the statutory instrument powers would be suddenly in the | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
distance so I think it's not unreasonable to suggest they should | :09:54. | :09:56. | |
be some kind of conditionality and review process before those powers | :09:57. | :10:02. | |
are used, particularly when we apparently bill has so much time to | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
prepare. Plus 6 combines conditions that I called for at committee | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
stage, before the government can increase the limit of its investment | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
the Secretary of State is required to make an assessment have an | :10:15. | :10:16. | |
increased limit will contribute to the reduction of poverty which is a | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
statutory aim under the International development act 2002 | :10:21. | :10:24. | |
and how that increase would help to meet sustainable development goals. | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
The government has repeatedly argued that the CDC is doing both of these | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
things here effectively at which case this surely is hardly an owners | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
request? But the close, putting this into legislation would have the | :10:38. | :10:40. | |
effect of making it clearer this is the overall purpose of the CDC, the | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
commercial aim, returns and investment, even raw figures about | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
jobs created are not an end in themselves, they are only the means | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
to the end of reducing poverty and building a more stable and secure | :10:54. | :10:59. | |
world. Again, responsibility is the government, if that doesn't respect | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
or amendments at least acknowledge the concerns we express and give | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
commitments to show in any business case publishers for further | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
investment how poverty reduction and global sustainable development goals | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
will be advanced. I want to speak briefly in favour and indicate the | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
SNP support for the range of amendments brought forward by the | :11:19. | :11:21. | |
Shadow Liberty Mandy honourable member for Cardiff South and Penarth | :11:22. | :11:24. | |
who sits on the international developer committee. I welcome the | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
fact has been cross-party support for these amendments, and I suggest | :11:29. | :11:33. | |
the government pays attention, that there remains consensus in this | :11:34. | :11:36. | |
House and across the country in support of the principal of aid at | :11:37. | :11:46. | |
0.7%. What many of the Labour amendments say, it's as King DFID | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
told CDC to the same standards that it's now demanding of its external | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
stakeholders. Its recent bilateral and multilateral development reviews | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
were pretty much in a lateral declarations of everything that was | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
terrible and wasteful on the part of so many of its stakeholders and | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
demanding that the highest standards of efficiency impact and | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
transparency be applied to them and it stands to reason the standard | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
should be demanded from the CDC. A government that says it wants to | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
crack and an tax dodging shouldn't be allowing an agency of which it is | :12:20. | :12:23. | |
the sole stakeholder to be making use of offshore tax havens and the | :12:24. | :12:27. | |
government that wants value for money should not be afraid to ask | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
for reporting on exactly those areas. My colleagues and I will be | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
happy to join the party and other party members, to meet them in the | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
lobby in support of any amendments they wish to press. By the David is | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
bigger asset of the 2nd reading I was disappointed the scope is | :12:49. | :12:52. | |
narrow. The government had the opportunity to widen the scope, | :12:53. | :12:54. | |
strengthen its transparency and accountability. It also had the | :12:55. | :13:00. | |
opportunity with a substantial and in some cases creative amendments | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
proposed by opposition members, if the Minister continues to indicate | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
an unwillingness to accept amendments and it's disappointing we | :13:10. | :13:12. | |
didn't bring forward any of their own to reflect concerns raised, but | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
it must give the strongest possible commitment now in response to the | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
concerns we have raised. And it must recognise as the Labour front bench | :13:22. | :13:23. | |
spokesperson said this is the beginning and at the end of the | :13:24. | :13:32. | |
process. Richard Fuller. Madam PPD speaker. I am taking your suggestion | :13:33. | :13:36. | |
that we must stand up and we get the chance. I would like to start if I | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
may, by thanking all of the members of staff at CDC for the work they do | :13:42. | :13:48. | |
on behalf of British taxpayers and more reportedly on behalf of the | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
people on whom they depend on to depend on CDC for the claimant in | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
many of the most troubled and difficult countries in the world. | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
CDC over the last few weeks has been subject to much ill founded and | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
hostile criticism, it must make their job much harder and I think | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
it's important to put on the record the support for the work they do in | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
helping to achieve our country's development goals. I would also like | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
to thank the front bench spokesman for the Labour Party. I think she | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
did a very good job today in putting forward some points of scrutiny and | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
if I could also say in holding back on perhaps some of the wilder | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
suggestions that might happen foisted upon her to take up and | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
batter on this bill. The fact that there has been historically and | :14:39. | :14:42. | |
continues to be, given what the lady of the front bench said, a | :14:43. | :14:46. | |
consensus, cross-party consensus about the valuable role of CDC in | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
achieving the development goals, it's an important board, a | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
long-standing institution. It's part of the British brand internationally | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
but I think she's done a great service focusing on 1 amendment, but | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
pushing back on other ideas that other members | :15:03. | :15:10. | |
I'm sure he's aware last year the CDC upped its investment pace to | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
$1.5 billion. The level projected for the next five years. Do you | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
think this investment rate show as recaptainisation is not about some | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
supposed new direction for CDC but it's about allowing the good work | :15:28. | :15:30. | |
they've done under its management to continue? My honourable friend is | :15:31. | :15:36. | |
right. We have to be clear what is proposed. It is not proposed to do | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
more than is being done now. It is to enable CDC to continue to do what | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
it is doing now. If we were to take suggestions proposed from the SNP | :15:48. | :15:50. | |
and others, that might imply that amount of support should be reduced | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
in the future. That would be to the detriment of not only those | :15:56. | :15:56. | |
countries but to the British countries but to the British | :15:57. | :16:05. | |
taxpayer as well. One does recognise ODA flows can go up and down. If for | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
some reason GNI were to consider and the ODI budget were to contract it | :16:13. | :16:17. | |
makes sense for the CDC to contract so more money was available for the | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
traditional equals? That's his point of view. I'll come to the point | :16:25. | :16:30. | |
about balance in a minute. I want to talk, the general view in these | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
amendments is they are seeking to solve problems that don't exist but | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
may exist. I don't think statute is the right way to approach those | :16:40. | :16:44. | |
types of circumstances the. That is a matter of oversight and scrutiny | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
by ministers on behalf of our taxpayers. It is not about putting | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
things into bills. I oppose any amendment on that basis. There's | :16:55. | :17:00. | |
some validity if there was a question about this aspect of FDI | :17:01. | :17:04. | |
being unusually large. There might be something if there was a poor | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
investment record. She were losing shed loads of taxpayers very | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
investment or clearly ignoring development goals and being held to | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
account for doing that. Or if there was a problem in the reporting | :17:18. | :17:22. | |
oversight that was evidence and explained in various reports. Not | :17:23. | :17:26. | |
one single one of those conditions pertains to the circumstances of | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
CDC. Therefore, there is no prior reason for why these amendments | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
should be put in place. As I was mentioned earlier on, if you look at | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
the proportion of our development budget that goes to CDC, it is 4% of | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
our development budget. If you take our development systems over five | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
years, the usual investment period for a fund. That compares to France | :17:53. | :18:01. | |
12% of their budget. Germany, 8% of their budget and FMO in Holland, 30% | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
of their budget. So, we're not unusually large. We're actually | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
unusually small. We should be looking to these sorts of | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
initiatives for a measured and slow increase in our ability to invest so | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
we can play a fuller role in that. I don't think that really holds. The | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
poor investment record doesn't hold either. The truth of the matter is, | :18:24. | :18:30. | |
I have the numbers here, the CDC's annual return, commercial returns we | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
have to understand there is a commercial return was set a target | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
of 3.5%. The CDC asheaved an 8.7% over the last five years. There | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
isn't really grounds to say they are performing in terms of their core | :18:46. | :18:51. | |
function of investing in line with a commercial basis with them being | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
poor performers or dog something under doored. In terms of missing | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
development goals. There is a little bit of a laundry list of sectors | :19:00. | :19:05. | |
that the honourable member wishes to turn his knows up to in -- nose up | :19:06. | :19:11. | |
to in terms of development goals. Not sure if this is a full list or | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
things he doesn't like. There are good reasons to support parts of | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
those things. Clearly, we'll hear from him in a minute, I'm sure he'll | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
make an excellent case for that laundry list. In the meanwhile, I | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
would say there isn't really any evidence, is there, for CDC missing | :19:30. | :19:36. | |
its development goals? Even the NAO, in their report, mentioned the CDC | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
has met Bolt targets for its financial -- both targets for its | :19:42. | :19:49. | |
financial and in clause 12, it has exceeded the target for prospected | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
developmental impact. No basis on those for the amendments either. Is | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
there and are there concerns about reporting for CDC? There may be. I | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
haven't heard it. I can't point to something that says there are | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
concerns. But I don't think in either of second reading or in the | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
evidence stages, the report stage or today we've heard concerns about the | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
reporting. There may be additional pieces of information we wish to | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
have. They are listed in the some of the amendments. There's no real | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
concern that's been raised they have been available in the past and | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
therefore we need to ensure they provide those. I think on the issues | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
of, is there a problem at CDC? The amendments are needed to correct, | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
there's very limited basis in my case, no justification for them | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
whatsoever. I think we have to be clear about what the role of tax | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
havens has been. The honourable lady in her speech was very fair in | :20:53. | :20:57. | |
pointing out the CDC's Chief Executive had made it clear they do | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
not use tax havens in its policies. She explained the Chief Executive of | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
the CDC explained why and why those are used. I'm perfectly happy | :21:08. | :21:16. | |
resting on the judgment of CDC, its governance structures and the | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
oversight of the development department to make sure that | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
continues. I don't see there is an evidence problem at the moment to | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
see they've wandered off from what they said they would do. If there | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
was a problem, I would say, OK, maybe the time is now for statute. | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
The honourable lady hasn't presented a recent concern where that's | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
happened. Therefore, I can't see the reason for supporting a new clause 1 | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
though I understand she wants to put it to a vote. We broadly accept, and | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
having a discussion about this is valuable, there is a strong message | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
from Parliament about the use of tax havens and what is appropriate and | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
what is not. If that is her intention it is a perfectly | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
reasonable point for her to make. CDC is a valuable institution. It | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
holds support from both sides of the House. I look forward to having | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
further discussion on the amendments and then supporting the bill at | :22:14. | :22:21. | |
third reading. In July of last year as part of our ongoing inquiry, the | :22:22. | :22:28. | |
international development committee visited the democratic rob lick of | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
Congo. We saw a hydroelectric power plant which is part-funned by CDC. | :22:36. | :22:44. | |
It is reinvesting parts of its earnings into preteching the | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
environment. It is bringing electricity to a region in which | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
only 15% of the population has previously had access to power and | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
has the potential to generate millions of dollars every year and | :22:56. | :22:57. | |
thousands of jobs for local communities. I cite this because I | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
believe projects like this are impressive. They demonstrate the | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
positive impact CDC is already having. We know as other colleagues | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
on both sides of the House have says... I'm happy to give way. I | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
also, as he knows, was on that visit. I think that's probably one | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
of the most impressive projects I have ever seen providing light to so | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
many people who desperately need it. Those are just the sorts of projects | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
that we've talked about and said CDC should be investing more in. They | :23:36. | :23:39. | |
are creating jobs but making life better for so many more people. I'm | :23:40. | :23:46. | |
grateful to the honourable lady who is a very highly valued member of | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
the international development committee. The purpose of my remarks | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
during report stage is to reinforce the points she's just made. These | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
are positive projects. We want to ensure that high level of the | :23:59. | :24:02. | |
quality we saw in that particular example in Congo becomes the norm | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
across all of CDC's investments, particularly as the limit is | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
increased. I'll come on to that in a moment. We know the private sector | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
provides nine out of every ten jobs in developing countries. Its | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
development, its success is vital to helping countries achieve | :24:22. | :24:23. | |
sustainable and long-term development. Therefore, I think it | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
does make sense for the CDC's involvement threshold to be in | :24:30. | :24:34. | |
ceased. Poverty reduction must be at the heart of the Government's | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
development agenda. That must explicitly include in the work of | :24:40. | :24:46. | |
the CDC. In 2011, the predecessor international development committee | :24:47. | :24:49. | |
produced a report entitled the future of CDC as the group | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
approached its then cap of ?1.5 million set out in the 1999 act. The | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
report cln colluded the mandate of the CDC should be changed to a | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
specific focus on poverty alleviation. Given job creation is | :25:06. | :25:11. | |
one of the Very best ways to reduce poverty, it is important that the | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
Government has a development investment arm that will help poorer | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
countries create new and innovative jobs. As has been said on both sides | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
of the House, the CDC made some significant changes following the | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
2008 National Audit Office report and the 2011 international | :25:32. | :25:35. | |
development committee report in line with recommendation to move towards | :25:36. | :25:39. | |
a focus on the alleviation of poverty. As has been said, these | :25:40. | :25:45. | |
changes were reviewed recently by a further National Audit Office report | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
released just before second reading of this bill in November 2016. The | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
report was mostly positive. It noted in particular that the 2012/16 | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
investment strategy shifted the investment focus of the CDC to | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
poorest countries. That is welcomed. The it noted the CDC met targets to | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
#2ki6ed and financial performance and im#35k9. It also said the CDC | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
should be doing more to measure the development impact of its | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
investments. This will not only provide a better basis for | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
investment decisions. But will also increase the transparency of the | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
CDC. Poverty alleviation is absolutely central if we're going to | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
make a success of the global goals. The sustainable development goals | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
agreed in 2015. Africa needs to generate 15 million new jobs every | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
year if it's to achieve its global goals. That can only be achieved by | :26:45. | :26:50. | |
working with the private sector, including with organisations like | :26:51. | :26:54. | |
CDC. CDC has helped create nearly 25,000 jobs in Africa and South Asia | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
directly. They say over a million indirectly. The businesses in their | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
portfolio support around 18 million jobs. I'm-y to see the threshold | :27:04. | :27:11. | |
being raised. However, I have a number of concerns that I want the | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
minister to respond to when he speaks in report stage this | :27:16. | :27:22. | |
afternoon. Thanks for giving way. He will know I very much respect hads | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
passion in this area, more particularly the very balanced way | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
in which he's dealt with the issues around CDC. Does he share some of my | :27:30. | :27:36. | |
concerns however, we are risking have a more press scriptive approach | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
towards this part private sector organisation than we are to a range | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
of NGOs who are beneficiaries of large scale problems in relation to | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
Dyfed? That might actually also be somewhat disstoring? He makes valid | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
points about the concerns, equally, if we're going to hamstring CDC in | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
the way one or two of these amendments would have us do, that | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
would be an undesirable outcome for DFID of? I'm not arguing for | :28:10. | :28:18. | |
prescriptions to the applied to CDC that I wouldn't to other | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
organisations in DFID. The Secretary of State, shortly before Christmas, | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
set out a number of conditions for suppliers to the department and I | :28:28. | :28:31. | |
think he makes a very valid point that should apply to CDC in the same | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
way that it applies to other suppliers. I'm emphasising my | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
support for the amendment which says poverty reduction should be at the | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
heart of the work of CDC. All of us would agree poverty reduction should | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
be at the heart of the entire development and aid strategy of DFID | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
and other parts of Government. I can plead not guilty to the charge he's | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
putting to me. I'm not proposing in any sense to hamstring CDC. I'm | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
certainly not proposing or the side of the House seek to propose | :29:04. | :29:11. | |
any restriction on CDC that would be out of step to other Cree | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
restrictions to other bodies funded through overseas development | :29:16. | :29:16. | |
assistance. With my honourable friend agree it | :29:17. | :29:28. | |
is about bringing CDC more in line with other countries and the | :29:29. | :29:34. | |
restrictions it places on users? Yes, I agree with that and that's | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
why I think it is very important... why I think it is very important... | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
I have read what the Minister is written during committee stage, but | :29:42. | :29:44. | |
I look forward to hearing him again today. The sense that what is a very | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
substantial increase in the potential money that could be going | :29:50. | :29:51. | |
through CDC that we make sure this through CDC that we make sure this | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
money really is geared to poverty reduction wherever it is invested, | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
and part of that, as my honourable friend rightly points out, is which | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
parts of the world, which countries will be invested in because | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
investment in some countries can deliver a lot more both in terms of | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
jobs and poverty reduction than investment in others. I'm happy with | :30:15. | :30:22. | |
there being an increase in investment threshold but we have to | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
make sure the money is spent wisely. The current investment plan has now | :30:26. | :30:31. | |
expired and we are yet to see the next investment plan for 2017 - | :30:32. | :30:39. | |
2021. It would have been beneficial for this bill, the Government and | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
CDC itself if we have seen the plans for the next four years of | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
investment before parliament was asked to raise the investment | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
threshold. The amendment from the shadow Secretary of State would | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
ensure that if the Government brings forward regulations to further | :30:58. | :31:00. | |
increase the limit, this would have to be preceded by a detailed plan of | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
investment from CDC which could be scrutinised by Parliament and I | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
welcome and support that amendment. Successive governments can be very | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
proud of the role the Department for International of all and has played | :31:17. | :31:19. | |
in improving the lives and economies of some of the world's poorest | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
countries but in light of the public debate around International of other | :31:26. | :31:28. | |
and spending, not only is what my honourable friend said correct in | :31:29. | :31:35. | |
principle, does he agree with me this is essential for maintaining | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
and building on public confidence in international development spending. | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
I absolutely agree with what my honourable friend said and it chimes | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
with what I will conclude with, which is to talk about the | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
importance of scrutiny, including scrutiny by this House both of CDC | :31:53. | :32:03. | |
and the Government. Whilst I have a lot of sympathy for what he says, it | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
would be useful in the context of this debate to have an idea of the | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
sort of programmes that the CDC might have in mind for the future, I | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
hope that whilst this bill goes through the passage in another place | :32:17. | :32:19. | |
well there might be an opportunity for us to do that at some point. | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
However, would he also perhaps recognise that given the nature of | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
CDC's expertise and experience that it might well have to an extent | :32:32. | :32:40. | |
slightly different goals to other non-governmental organisations who | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
receive Dyfed money. In other words this absolute predominance for the | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
alleviation of poverty could in some cases perhaps not entirely apply to | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
everything they CDC does, given its expertise and experience. I think | :32:55. | :33:02. | |
the focus, the priority I guess, needs to be on poverty alleviation | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
and I gave the example when I started, and the honourable member | :33:07. | :33:15. | |
for Derbyshire reinforced my point, about a project that delivered | :33:16. | :33:19. | |
things beyond poverty reduction but at the heart of that investment and | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
the impact of that investment is the reduction in poverty and I think | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
that always to be kept in mind is a very useful lodestar for Dyfed when | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
it is approaching the work of CDC. I would need persuading other cases. | :33:35. | :33:52. | |
The recent N a L report, as was said rightly by the Member for Bedford, | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
revealed that the development impact score is on average being met but | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
that is only on average. CDC is making some investments that do fall | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
below target. 23% of investments since 2013 have fallen below the | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
target score based on their investment difficulty and propensity | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
to generate employment. Even that the objectives stated in CDC's | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
current investment policy is to focus its investments into the | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
geographies and sectors where there is the most potential for | :34:27. | :34:31. | |
development impact, it is not clear as to why CDC is investing in | :34:32. | :34:34. | |
projects that achieve lower scores so I would say to the Minister, | :34:35. | :34:39. | |
along with the more robust approach to developing impact is highlighted | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
by the NAL, I would like to see some sort of minimum threshold for impact | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
implemented in the new investment strategy. As with all Dyfed | :34:50. | :34:56. | |
spending, the International Development Secretary will | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
scrutinise very closely CDC's work in the months and years ahead. It is | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
vital that we make sure the British taxpayer gets value for money for | :35:05. | :35:09. | |
every pound that is spent on international development. As has | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
been said on all sides of the House, CDC has become more transparent | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
following the reports of the committee in 2011 and the NAO in | :35:18. | :35:24. | |
2008 but more can still be done to make sure money is being spent as | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
well as possible. One way in which that could be achieved, and I would | :35:28. | :35:32. | |
ask the Minister to explore this, is to allow the Independent commission | :35:33. | :35:36. | |
for aid impact to play a bigger role, for example carrying out a | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
regular assessment of CDC investments, allowing scrutiny so we | :35:42. | :35:44. | |
can really ensure full effectiveness and value for money for the | :35:45. | :35:50. | |
programmes in which CDC invests. I think we can say CDC has been a | :35:51. | :35:57. | |
world leader among the relevant finance institutions in publishing | :35:58. | :36:00. | |
details of their investments since 2012 under the International aid | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
transparency initiative and that is very welcome but I would suggest it | :36:04. | :36:08. | |
would improve transparency further if they published similar details on | :36:09. | :36:13. | |
their entire active investment portfolio, including those made | :36:14. | :36:20. | |
prior to 2012. I think this would enable greater scrutiny of CDC's | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
entire portfolio and hopefully provide assurance to the public that | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
all CDC investments are being focused where they need to be on the | :36:31. | :36:35. | |
goal of poverty reduction. In conclusion, I do believe that CDC | :36:36. | :36:41. | |
has helped the United Kingdom to be a leader in global development, but | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
as with any area of government spending, we need to make sure that | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
every penny is going to the places where it can have the greatest | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
effect, the right places and the right people delivering value for | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
money for the taxpayer. One of the ways in which we can achieve this is | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
by regular scrutiny of the CDC, including by Parliament, and I give | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
a commitment that the international of and select committee will play a | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
role in making sure we hold to account both the departments and CDC | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
as the additional money is allocated, but most importantly, as | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
with all areas of development spending, we need to make sure the | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
ultimate goal is poverty alleviation and eradication and we never lose | :37:25. | :37:32. | |
focus on that. I am grateful for your generosity to allow me to | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
contribute for a short time in this debate this afternoon. The CDC has a | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
really discreet role in our portfolio. There are few | :37:45. | :37:47. | |
organisations with the skills and abilities to manage such risks in | :37:48. | :37:52. | |
the most difficult markets. It has a situation where often, in many | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
examples, it will actually bring an economically frontier country the | :38:00. | :38:08. | |
opportunity to risk profile that more established, traditional | :38:09. | :38:10. | |
investment vehicles can get involved in and that's to be welcomed. | :38:11. | :38:18. | |
Supporting more than 1200 and 70 developing countries, creating jobs. | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
When I was serving on the bill committee, we discussed a number of | :38:23. | :38:28. | |
things. One of them being about the fact they weren't necessarily direct | :38:29. | :38:33. | |
investments. I know some of the amendments being debated today are | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
talking about whether that is diverting resources away from the | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
least developed countries. What I would say however is that sometimes | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
it is necessary to invest in opportunities in other countries. As | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
long as the outcomes are those that are going to the most needy, the | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
least developed countries. That is of the day is what we are trying to | :38:57. | :39:01. | |
do with our International Development Secretary. It is | :39:02. | :39:09. | |
important to concentrate on our core goals. I know the Minister in | :39:10. | :39:14. | |
committee was very specific when he was saying he didn't believe we | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
needed legislation because those already legislation in the | :39:18. | :39:28. | |
international assistant development act, and the need to focus on | :39:29. | :39:36. | |
poverty reduction and SDGs as well. Also Dyfed's processes have that | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
enshrined in as well so I don't believe we need more primary | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
legislation repeat that, effectively. In terms of the limits | :39:46. | :39:49. | |
that were discussed in some of the amendments, we have to remember that | :39:50. | :39:55. | |
this is effectively an enabling legislation, not an immediate call | :39:56. | :40:05. | |
to spend, not saying here is ?6 billion tomorrow and we will raise | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
it further the day after. This is simply enabling to bring CDC up to | :40:10. | :40:17. | |
similar situation of other organisations that have similar | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
requests of departments. And I would hope, and again I know the Minister | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
spoke at committee to save the fact that any request for money, and the | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
actual request for money would have to be subject to Dyfed's strategy, | :40:32. | :40:37. | |
have a robust business plan and be considered fully before any money | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
was handed over. That can easily be done at a departmental level and I | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
totally agree with my colleague, the chairman of the International do and | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
committee. As a new member, I will look forward myself to scrutinise | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
the work of CDC and what it is doing there. I know the CDC has changed. I | :40:57. | :41:05. | |
agree with my honourable friend, the Member for Bedford, when he spoke | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
about some of the amendments looking at future problems that may not | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
occur but also its rehearsing some old problems that occurred before | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
2010 when the then Secretary of State reorganised CDC and I don't | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
want to have amendments on primary legislation that is looking at | :41:24. | :41:31. | |
things that may or may not happen or happened in the past and have been | :41:32. | :41:35. | |
largely sorted out. That's why the move from the CDC had before 2010, | :41:36. | :41:42. | |
and a lot of examples when it was looking at high impact programmes to | :41:43. | :41:50. | |
a far more proactive viewpoint to make sure we do take into account | :41:51. | :41:59. | |
the SDGs and poverty reduction. I will be scrutinising that with my | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
colleague and I just do not believe I will be supporting amendments for | :42:04. | :42:08. | |
those reasons. They can best be done at Department level, committee | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
level, and so I look forward to this bill becoming an act. I beg to move | :42:16. | :42:31. | |
amendments in my name and the name of my honourable friend. It is | :42:32. | :42:34. | |
fantastic today we have a great degree of consensus around the room | :42:35. | :42:40. | |
on the issue of the 0.7% target and the role Britain plays in the | :42:41. | :42:43. | |
International of them and, perhaps in contrast to some of the debate | :42:44. | :42:47. | |
that has gone on in the media in recent weeks. And also it may | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
surprise some of the honourable members put there is actually an | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
agreement on a role for CDC. I believe CDC has a role to play. I | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
made it clear in the committee stage and I'm sure the Minister will | :43:02. | :43:07. | |
acknowledge that. It plays a vital part in the wider portfolio of | :43:08. | :43:10. | |
international development efforts this country makes, and indeed the | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
spending of our official development assistance. Can I thank my fellow | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
co-operative party MPs on the front bench as well as members from a wide | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
range of other parties across the House for adding their names to many | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
of the amendments I've tabled for today's report stage which show the | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
level of reasonable concerns about the many unanswered questions about | :43:35. | :43:39. | |
the priorities and operations of the Commonwealth development Corporation | :43:40. | :43:41. | |
that I believe need to be addressed before we countenance such a large | :43:42. | :43:46. | |
increase in the official development assistance resources that it | :43:47. | :43:52. | |
receives from DFID. This isn't about suggesting CDC shouldn't get more | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
resources. Clearly it has reached the cap that was set in 1999, it | :43:57. | :44:01. | |
needs to have some had room to expand its activities but it's worth | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
recognising it has coped well with recycling resources within itself, | :44:06. | :44:08. | |
partly because of some of the successes it has enjoyed. | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
This is about choices. Choices where we spend those precious, relatively | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
small amounts of development assistance. We have a wide range of | :44:20. | :44:22. | |
routes where we can spend that money. Bilaterally, multilateral | :44:23. | :44:29. | |
agencies, through NGOs, in some cases in joint work with other do | :44:30. | :44:32. | |
have departments and through vehicles like the CDC. The question | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
fundamentally for me, is about the balance between those things and the | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
coherence between them. Are we ensuring we're coherent in the | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
countries we're operating in, the ways and sectors. And u | :44:46. | :44:50. | |
financedmently, in that focus on poverty eradication for those people | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
who most need it. Clearly, madam departmenty speaker, we will not be | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
able to address all concerns in today's report stage. I don't want | :44:59. | :45:05. | |
to reiterate too much the arguments mate in the second reading. Some of | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
these are clearly probing amendments to try to get some clearer answers | :45:10. | :45:12. | |
from the minister when he stands up as to the plans. He said some | :45:13. | :45:17. | |
helpful things during the committee stage and I hope he can elaborate on | :45:18. | :45:22. | |
those further. I want to focus my comments on firstly the volume of | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
the new investment being proposed by the Government for CDC. Secondly, | :45:27. | :45:31. | |
the continued use of tax havens by CDC, the third, the continued | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
investment by CDC in sectors which do not appear to be coherent with | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
the wider development spending and appear often counter to it. It is | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
right we should question these things. The CDC only needed ?1.5 | :45:45. | :45:52. | |
billion of capital investment from the UK Government between 1999 and | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
2016. There in lies my fundamental concern. How can we up to ?6 million | :45:57. | :46:05. | |
and then ?12 million? The minister made helpful comments saying this | :46:06. | :46:08. | |
wouldn't happen in one year, it would be spread out over a longer | :46:09. | :46:13. | |
period. In the explanatory notes to the bill it makes clear this is | :46:14. | :46:19. | |
about accelerating spending in this spending round in forecast market | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
demands. I agree with the chair of the select committee t would have | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
been a lot better had we had a much clearer plan, not a detailed | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
business plan, but some assessment of the investigators very could be | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
investing in before we got to the stage of agreeing this new headroom | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
for CDC. I think another fundamental point is that the Government and CDC | :46:44. | :46:48. | |
admitted in the evidence we had at the committee stage it was the | :46:49. | :46:51. | |
Government who came up with the figure, it was not a request from | :46:52. | :46:58. | |
CDC. This strikes me as somewhat odd if there is this forecast demand and | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
if CDC is in need of such an injection of resources, ten fold in | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
comparison to what it's had over the last 16 years, was this plucked out | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
of the air as a figure? It would have been much more helpful to set | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
out why that amount reaching ?12 billion with secondly legislation. | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
There's some very important amendments we have down in this | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
regard today to the report stage. Firstly, new clause 2 which rightly | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
calls for a business case. I hope when the minister gets up, can | :47:36. | :47:38. | |
explain further how this process around a business case will work. | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
What scrutiny there will be for parboil to understand what is being | :47:43. | :47:47. | |
proposed before resources are drawn down by CDC, what opportunities | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
there are for scrutiny, to ask the important questions we've all raised | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
and, crucially, can CDC absorb this funding? If we were prop Pos this | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
for an NGO or other multilateral institution, there would be howls, | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
how can they have the staffing, planning processes in place to cope | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
with this uplift? It doesn't malter who it is, but if you massively | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
increase the resources its receiving without that degree of planning and | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
staffing needed to ensure it's done effectively and transparently and | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
uses that money in a good way, that you can see resources being skewed | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
and perhaps not being used in the most effective way. I will happy | :48:31. | :48:35. | |
give way. Just for the point of clarity, is it not true or the case | :48:36. | :48:40. | |
that actually the level of investment right now is consistent | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
with this increase? So, actually, CDC's current level of activity to | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
be maintained requires this level of increase. So the concerns about it | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
growing to rapidly perhaps can be overstated? I don't believe that | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
case has been made. We haven't had it made at any point, the | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
justification for the figures. To maintain CDC at its current level of | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
activity, it's managed well with ?1.9 billion. If it was going up by | :49:12. | :49:18. | |
1.52 billion I could understand. ?6 billion and ?12 billion seems out of | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
that space. I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman. I think, from | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
my understanding of the bill and reading through the evidence given | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
at the committee stage, forgive me for reading this out, no money will | :49:33. | :49:37. | |
go to CDC until a full business case is written in huge detail which will | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
be prepared in the summer of 2017. To perhaps give the impression that | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
we're going to straightaway give this huge chunk of money to CDC is | :49:45. | :49:49. | |
perhaps creating an unfair impression. The honourable lady | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
didn't listen clearly to what I was saying. I didn't say that. I said | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
the minister said clearly it wouldn't be spent in one year. That | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
was the fear initially when this was proposed. What we're asking for this | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
this amendment is for that clear business case. I hope the minister, | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
he was nodding his head earlier on, how that process will occur and | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
scrutiny. It is only right that does occur. There was very limited | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
scrutiny of the last amount, quite a significant amount. I'm grateful to | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
my honourable friend. What he's describing in civil service language | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
is the ghastly phrase abso tiff capacity. He will know unfortunately | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
the Department for International Development has allocated some | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
funding into various World Bank trust funds which have not been | :50:36. | :50:41. | |
fully spent within the timescale originally envisaged suggesting the | :50:42. | :50:45. | |
department is struggling to find suitable sources to absorb the money | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
it wants to. Therefore, he is right, in my view, to worry allowed this is | :50:50. | :50:56. | |
a huge increase of money without any pro-en capacity to send the upon | :50:57. | :51:04. | |
money. Indeed. He makes a very important point. I've spoken to | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
other experts in the sector who suggest that to absorb that amount, | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
each a doubling would be is a strug. But the struggle. But the levels we | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
are seeing. That's why it needs to be clear what is the level of this | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
spending. What is the number of years over which this increase would | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
be spent before requiring another act to increase it further? I will | :51:29. | :51:33. | |
give way in a moment. I think also, we've put down some crucial | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
amendments from the Scottish National Party, clauses 3, 4 and 6 | :51:39. | :51:45. | |
and my own, clause 9, but importance of focusing on the poorest, least | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
development countries, low income countries. Ensuring we're coherent | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
with the sustainable dome goals, goals by the UN and poverty | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
eradication and not other priorities. Thank you very much. I | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
think my honourable friend is making excellent case. Is it not the case | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
that divvied has led the world on the importance DFID on transparency | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
and poverty why I reduction. The problem at the very heart of these | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
proposals is there is absolutely very little prospect of transparency | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
in terms of the way these resources are spent and equally, very little | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
ability for the Government to guarantee that the resources will be | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
deployed and focussed on poverty why I reduction? Isn't that a matter of | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
major concern? It is. It gets to the point. There is a lot of information | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
provided by CDC online. It is important to acknowledge that. You | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
can see projects and individual spending. When it gets to the will | :52:49. | :52:54. | |
have, being able to pro-prospective development impact, to show where | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
that's going, the the the NAO looked at the issue of funding going into | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
the Health Secretarier in India. Being clear where that was being | :53:04. | :53:05. | |
spent in a particular hospital group. Was it going to the poorest | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
or middle-income patients. The NEO told us it was going to middling | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
income patients. That doesn't strike me as a correct use of CDC's money. | :53:17. | :53:23. | |
Not to say it is not good. Enabling access to hospitals for people in | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
general is a thing. But sharply we should be footballing using on the | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
poorest. When you get into the depths of the figures, the overall | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
proportion of spending going to the least developed countries rather | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
than middle-income countries, whilst the proportion has gone up it is | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
#1iing9ly less than going to the middle-income countries. When we | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
look into individual countries, if we look at the example of India, and | :53:51. | :53:56. | |
we look at which states the money is being invested in in India, the | :53:57. | :54:01. | |
majority of the money is being spent in what are determined to be the | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
richest states in India. The highest proportion of spend something in | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
Mumbai. I'm not saying the individual investments being made | :54:12. | :54:14. | |
there are not good or effective or doing useful things. The question is | :54:15. | :54:20. | |
the priorities. It was helpful to hear the minister speak in the | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
committee stage about a cap or restriction on #23u7beding going | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
into India and South Asia versus Africa. Paul said he shared that | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
concern. Is CDC spoke using resources enough on the poorest | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
countries -- focusing resources. I think the wider issue about the | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
proportion versus other spending routes that has been raised by both | :54:49. | :54:56. | |
the SNP amendment number 3, our new clause 10, is crucial. Not saying | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
CDC shouldn't get more money or expand operations but it is about | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
having it in proportion to other forms of official assistance. It is | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
important we put safeguards in, in this respect. By 2019, 26% of UK | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
official development systems will be spent by other Government | :55:17. | :55:19. | |
departments. We see money going into the prosperity funds and other funds | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
across Government with far less scrutiny and far less oversight than | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
is going on in the Department for International Development. It | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
worries me and others. It is about having a fair balance and ensuring | :55:32. | :55:37. | |
CDC has that role to play but in proportion to other ways we can | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
spend that money and ensuring we're pulling all the levers of the | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
development. In that respect, I would be very inclined to support | :55:47. | :55:50. | |
amendment 3 were that pushed to a vote at a later stage. I want to | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
turn briefly to the issue of tax havens. I don't want to go over this | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
at great length. We discuss it had a lot in the committee and today. It | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
seems surprising to me, in reference to new clause 1 and 8, that CDC | :56:06. | :56:12. | |
continues to use tax havens. There's a fair point being made about the | :56:13. | :56:16. | |
importance of stable financial arrangements for investments and | :56:17. | :56:19. | |
clearly, in some countries, it is not possible to be setting things up | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
within the legal structures of those countries to ensure the ride | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
fiduciary controls are in place. However, what I can't understand is | :56:28. | :56:31. | |
why we're simply not setting up these vehicles in England or Wales? | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
Why are so many in the came enisland our Mauritius. I asked parliamentary | :56:38. | :56:42. | |
questions about this, we are paying fees, management fees to financial | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
services organisations in Kay men and elsewhere which are supporting | :56:47. | :56:52. | |
the far less transparent activities or others. We might, indirectly, | :56:53. | :56:59. | |
whether or not anything untoward, we might be indirectly be supporting | :57:00. | :57:05. | |
the tax evasion industry which exists in overseas territories and | :57:06. | :57:08. | |
other places. Is my honourable friend aware of comments that the | :57:09. | :57:12. | |
Secretary of State made about tax evasion and the use and trying to | :57:13. | :57:17. | |
limit the use of tax havens when she was a Treasury minister? Why does | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
the Treasury seem to be concerned about this issuend a the Department | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
for International Development suddenly not concerned about this | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
issue? One would have thought it would be joined up on such a crucial | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
issue as this. It seems a great surprise to me. I mentioned the | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
letter earlier on. The letter the Secretary of State sent. Clearly | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
making a point about not using tax avoidance measures, not using tax | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
havens. There was a whole series of criteria. Most reasonable and things | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
we should expect from organisations in receipt of our aid spending. Why | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
are they not being applied to the CDC The sectsry of state implied | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
they would be. One rule for one and another rule for others. The fact is | :58:04. | :58:11. | |
whether you look at the research, 118 out of 157 fund investments made | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
by CDC went through jurisdictions that go through systems of the tax | :58:17. | :58:22. | |
haven industries. That is not coherent with other statements from | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
the Government. About cracking down on tax avoidance and tax evasion. | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
Lastly, I want to return to this issue of coherence. Particularly I | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
would urge colleagues to support new clause 7. The honourable gentleman | :58:37. | :58:43. | |
opposite referred to is as a laundry list or a suggestion I was creating | :58:44. | :58:49. | |
hypothetical straw men out there, that is not the case. I am talking | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
about things happening now. It is a fact as data revealed to me since | :58:55. | :58:58. | |
the committee stage in parliamentary questions shows in 2015 alone, CDC | :58:59. | :59:09. | |
invested 156.9 million it private fee education and ?169 million in | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
pre-sat health care. The reality, I'm sure honourable health members | :59:14. | :59:19. | |
will allude to this, there are private, voluntary providers, faith | :59:20. | :59:21. | |
providers providing health and education in developing countries. | :59:22. | :59:27. | |
This that is a fact. It is how our health education systems started | :59:28. | :59:30. | |
out. Where is the priority for our spending of money? Is it in further | :59:31. | :59:40. | |
supporting and expanding those fee paying health and educational | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
providers or providing prepublic health care education. Supporting | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
teacher and nurses salaries, health and education. Removing user fees. | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
As this country has done in the past, removing user fees to ensure | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
access for the poorest people. It is a reality even very small user fees | :59:59. | :00:04. | |
can be a huge disincentive, particularly to those on lowest | :00:05. | :00:09. | |
incomes. Whether you look at the rainbow's Hospital Trusts in India | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
or gems Africa which seem to be funding private schools who charge | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
up to ?10,000 a year in Kenya, it seems to be an incoherence here | :00:19. | :00:23. | |
between what we say we're doing, our priorities in health and education | :00:24. | :00:28. | |
and what CDC is doing. The other examples are based on current | :00:29. | :00:35. | |
examples. Palm oil, we've heard about scandals related to that, a | :00:36. | :00:41. | |
highly unsustainable product. Concerns about human rights. Whether | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
or not there have been improvements to that project it seems inCronk | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
reious to provide taxpayers' money which are not in line with other | :00:52. | :00:54. | |
objectives. It is important for the CDC to | :00:55. | :01:05. | |
invest in infrastructure. We have the example earlier on about | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
excellent investment in infrastructure in Africa but it | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
seems odd to me that we would be continuing to invest in fossil fuel | :01:16. | :01:18. | |
led programme when we have our climate change objectives. We should | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
be setting some bigger standards here and prioritising and shifting | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
resources to ensure the best practice. I would certainly be keen | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
to see new clause seven put to a vote. I hope the Minister would be | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
able to answer some of the concerns raised in this report stage before | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
we move further with the bill. I think it's right we answer these | :01:46. | :01:53. | |
questions. It is not a few million here or there, it is potentially | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
billions of pounds of spending and a significant portion of the budget | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
and it seems only right that is subject to scrutiny. I want to speak | :02:03. | :02:07. | |
in support of the number of amendments on the order paper but | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
before doing that I would like to make a couple of comments about the | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
political context in which I think this debate is taking place. I | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
turned on the television over the weekend on the ticker tape on the | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
screen on the news channel the information the Government had | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
stopped funding a girl band in Africa. I was shocked by this and | :02:28. | :02:34. | |
thought I didn't realise we were funding bands of any kind in Africa | :02:35. | :02:45. | |
and so I looked into it, and it was based on girl effect in Ethiopia, | :02:46. | :02:50. | |
the huge programme aimed at empowering women in that country. It | :02:51. | :02:58. | |
has 10,000 participants online and operates in schools around the | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
country, designed to use performing arts and music to give confidence to | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
women in those countries so they can take part in the political and | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
social life of Ethiopia. Undeniable that it is a good thing. It was set | :03:13. | :03:18. | |
up by DFID, every time DFID has reviewed it it has been given and a | :03:19. | :03:24. | |
star rating. However it is unusual, it is not the same as handing out | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
food to people who are starving sewer case needs to be made for it | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
and we need to be aware of how these things can be caricatured and used | :03:35. | :03:37. | |
to try and argue against the things we are talking about here today. | :03:38. | :03:48. | |
That entire project, Girl Effect was described by the Daily Mail as the | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
British Government funding the Spice Girls. It claimed the taxpayers' | :03:53. | :04:04. | |
money was not being used to feed the starving but being given to people | :04:05. | :04:17. | |
to make them pop stars. For many people reading the Daily Mail and | :04:18. | :04:21. | |
other papers that took it up, reading the ticker tape across the | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
screen, that's the impression they are given and we have lots of | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
people, including some in this chamber who ran to the press to make | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
comments about it, who will use these caricatures in order to try | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
and denigrate and oppose any foreign aid activity by this country, using | :04:37. | :04:42. | |
the ridiculous argument that we should be spending money at home | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
before we spend it abroad, as if the poverty and inequality which we have | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
in this country which we must tackle, but as if that was on a par | :04:51. | :04:57. | |
to the hell that is sub Saharan Africa where the poverty and | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
oppression is the normal way of existence for most people in those | :05:03. | :05:06. | |
countries. Knowing these caricatures are there and knowing we have to be | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
careful about how we present these arguments, that brings us back to | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
the amendments on the order paper before us today. The honourable | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
gentleman makes a good case but would he not, in considering that a | :05:21. | :05:25. | |
third of all Ethiopian girls don't actually get to go to school, | :05:26. | :05:32. | |
wouldn't with regard to female empowerment, wouldn't giving them an | :05:33. | :05:44. | |
education be more empowering? Of course, but the importance of this | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
project was that it understood Digital communication was a much | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
more effective way to reach people in Ethiopia in the bricks and cement | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
of the formal education establishment. It also understands | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
that music and lyrics are sometimes a better way to get through to | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
people and educate them and inspire them than formal text so these | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
things can contribute to the education of young women in Ethiopia | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
and DFID itself said it was a project worth supporting. The | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
importance, I think, of all of these debates is we can win public support | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
for foreign aid, we can rally the public behind the 0.7% contribution, | :06:30. | :06:36. | |
providing we are transparent about what we are doing and providing we | :06:37. | :06:41. | |
demonstrate that at every turn the people who are getting the money are | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
the people who really need it. Therefore it is important in the | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
work of the CDC group and others that those criteria are demonstrated | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
and the evidence is produced. I'm not sure which amendments have been | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
taken to the vote, but I think all of them have the intention of trying | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
to strengthen the existing bill. In my 20 months in the chamber this is | :07:05. | :07:07. | |
the first time at a report stage I have seen a bill come back without a | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
single government amendment which I find surprising. I know the bill is | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
concise and brief, but nonetheless, given the concerns expressed in this | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
chamber about the work of CDC group, I would have thought it could have | :07:24. | :07:26. | |
been tightened up a little bit but I hope the Government will consider | :07:27. | :07:28. | |
supporting some of these amendments which will have that effect, the | :07:29. | :07:34. | |
effect of making the Bill more effective, more efficacious about | :07:35. | :07:38. | |
doing what its objectives are. The first one of those I want to focus | :07:39. | :07:42. | |
on is new clause six, which says that before CDC group get major | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
uplift in funding the case has to be made that that means the sustainable | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
development goals and it is tackling poverty and inequality in the | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
country within which it is being employed. If the project is not | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
tackling poverty and not combating inequality and is not contributing | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
to achieving the goals, why should we be funding it? When money is | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
tight, we have to see these things are being spent on what they say | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
they are being spent on. We've had a discussion about the mistakes of CDC | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
in the past, we spoke about the luxury hotels and other | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
inappropriate projects in which the CDC group had invested in the past. | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
We were assured that those things were in the past, those mistakes | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
have been learned and they would not be repeated in the future. If that's | :08:44. | :08:48. | |
the case, what's the difficulty of building this into the bill so that | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
in future the CDC have an obligation to demonstrate when they get a | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
budget uplift that the reason they are getting that and what they will | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
be spending it on will contribute to meeting these goals and fulfilling | :09:01. | :09:14. | |
these criteria. The other area I think we should look at is in | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
amendments three and four, to which I put my own name, where there is an | :09:21. | :09:29. | |
intention to try to uplift the link in CDC group funding to the ODA. | :09:30. | :09:42. | |
There is an idea abroad that what may be happening here is the | :09:43. | :09:46. | |
outsourcing of our foreign aid, the privatisation of our foreign aid | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
activity, the pre-eminence given to market approaches rather than other | :09:54. | :09:57. | |
things. If that impression is not counted, we would be in problems. Of | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
course there is a role for spending public money to try and support the | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
creation of the small-business sector in developing countries, to | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
try to invest in it and see if we can create jobs, but let's not kid | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
ourselves. The bulk of our priority aid should be directed directly to | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
the people who need to combat malnutrition, illiteracy, poverty | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
and starvation that is happening throughout those countries. That be | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
done by setting up a small business to do it. That needs to be done by | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
direct state and NGO intervention and that's why we should be clear | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
that going forward the vast bulk of our foreign aid effort will remain | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
in that sphere. Whilst CDC and the market has a contribution to make, | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
particularly in countries which are along the process of development, it | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
is not going to be the primary way in which we do things going forward. | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
Amendments three and four give effect to that and I would commend | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
them to the House. If we do this we can strengthen the bill and | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
demonstrated people what our intentions are, which is to make | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
sure the hard earned taxes they pay and which they will politically | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
agree a small slice should be deployed for foreign aid, that they | :11:17. | :11:19. | |
are spent doing the things they want done and that is really combating | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
poverty and inequality in the developing world and making sure we | :11:24. | :11:28. | |
get to a more equal world society which is in our long-term interests | :11:29. | :11:36. | |
as well. I'm particularly pleased to follow the Speaker from Edinburgh | :11:37. | :11:44. | |
East because I'm here today because of concerns brought to me by | :11:45. | :11:52. | |
constituents. No NGOs have lobbied me in the making of this | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
intervention in this debate. Constituents contacted me before the | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
second reading of the bill, concerned that if it was past we | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
would run the risk of aid money being spent inappropriately and our | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
commitment to aid of which we can all be proud Ian on the mind. That | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
was their concern. So I want to return to that concern, a concern | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
that I raised at second reading of the bill. I want for me and my | :12:18. | :12:25. | |
constituents are the core issues. Directing the money to where it is | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
needed most, scrutiny and transparency. During second reading | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
I quoted, and I know it's been quoted already today, but it bears | :12:36. | :12:43. | |
listening to it again. In a recent report of the CDC, its conclusion | :12:44. | :12:48. | |
that it remains a significant challenge for CDC to achieve its | :12:49. | :12:54. | |
objectives of creating jobs and making a lasting difference to | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
people's lives in some of the poorest places in the world. | :13:03. | :13:19. | |
Basically we are being asked to trust. I | :13:20. | :14:01. | |
Education, the use of the school in the box model, where large classes | :14:02. | :14:11. | |
are taught using technology to teach standardised lessons. CDC has | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
invested in the expansion of such schools in Kenya, Uganda and Liberia | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
Troubridge International Academy to the tune of between 6 and $15 | :14:20. | :14:26. | |
million. The model however offers no guarantee of quality education. | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
63 bridge academies in Uganda werersed to close following a court | :14:35. | :14:41. | |
ruling which found education and legal standards regarding the use of | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
certified teachers, accredited cripple Lumb and appropriate | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
teaching models were neglected. Utilities. We heard about a good | :14:52. | :15:00. | |
example of utility development. CDC established a company called Unema | :15:01. | :15:08. | |
in 2005 to run Uganda's elect trisity distribution following | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
privatisation. The company's been highlighted as an example of the | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
positive impact such an initiative can have. However, Uganda says power | :15:18. | :15:27. | |
out ages are often and prices high. Research at the University of | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
Greenwich noted it was one of the most corrupt institutions in the | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
country by an international survey. Health care. A unison commissioned | :15:37. | :15:44. | |
study found the majority of CDC health care initiatives in India are | :15:45. | :15:50. | |
private fee paying hospitals targeting international tourists. | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
This means public funded health care suffers and low income groups are | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
denied access. As I've said, we've been told CDC operations have | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
improved considerably over the last few years. But giving it free reign | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
to invest with no conditions attached is far from ideal. If we | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
are to be standard barers of international development we need to | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
ensure our delivery of aid whether directly or through investments is | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
traps parent and of tangible benefits of those at the receiving | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
end. The examples I've mentioned suggest a tendency to invest in | :16:31. | :16:35. | |
programmes which produce a quick fix rather than create sustainable | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
regular basis. But increasingly in the last couple of weeks, in | :16:40. | :17:14. | |
234 in relation to international development, it is an area people | :17:15. | :17:23. | |
come back to over and over again. Last week, I spoke to Porthcawl's | :17:24. | :17:29. | |
Newton WI. I took many questions in relation to spending on | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
international development spending. I hope the amendments here today | :17:34. | :17:40. | |
will allay many of the fears that my constituents have raised and place | :17:41. | :17:46. | |
the important work that the Department for International | :17:47. | :17:46. | |
Development does, the change makes to lives in some of the | :17:47. | :17:54. | |
poorest countries in the world, absolutely something that our | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
constituents can all support because they can see it is transparent. They | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
can see it's scrutinised and see it as accountable. Without that, | :18:03. | :18:10. | |
we face yet more weeks of negative, often false new reporting, which | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
undertakes. Thank you. If I can will undermine the | :18:13. | :18:26. | |
undertakes. Thank you. If I can begin by thanking very much | :18:27. | :18:28. | |
honourable and Rt Hon Members. This has been a very strict-of-process. | :18:29. | :18:35. | |
The amendments brought forward reflect a really good committee | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
stage. Basically, this side of the House, the Government has huge | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
respect for the intelligence, focus and precision of these amendments. | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
We hope you will see in the strategy produced all these concerns raised | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
will be addressed through that strategy. Let me take these | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
amendments in turn. Before I do that, pay tribute very strongly to | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
the members of Parliament on all sides of the house who have | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
demonstrated support for their international development. | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
Particularly to the member of Edinburgh East, a powerful speech in | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
the support of international development and the importance of | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
standing up and supporting complex and innovative projects. I wonder | :19:23. | :19:30. | |
why in his remarks he can explain why the legislation preceded the | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
strategy? I'll deal with that in the second group of amendments. If I | :19:36. | :19:38. | |
could continue in paying tribute to the other members of the Parliament, | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
both sides of the House and their support of CDC struck by the member | :19:45. | :19:52. | |
for Liverpool West and Derby for his support for the Orunga project. The | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
support from the member for Glasgow West and the member for Edmonton | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
which is getting this balance between long-term investment and | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
short-term need. Finally, just to recapitulate the extraordinary work | :20:11. | :20:13. | |
that CDC itself has done and to echo the thanks of the honourable member | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
for Bedford. It has been a really tough time. We are used, as members | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
of the Parliament, to being under full public scrutiny and attack. CDC | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
works very hard. They've delivered some very high quality projects. | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
This has been a very tough period for them. There are three types of | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
amendment. First set of amendments basically says yes, we should be | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
giving more money to CDC but slightly less money to CDC. The | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
second set of amendments says there should be restrictions on the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
Government's ability to give money to CDC. The third set restricts what | :20:49. | :20:56. | |
CDC itself can do with the money. Essentially the Government's | :20:57. | :21:00. | |
position here is these are all very good points but are better dealt | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
with through governance mechanisms than strat trilegislation. Let's | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
deal with clause 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 10. We should give money to CDC but | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
we should give less money to CDC. Why do we disagree with this? This | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
was e-Select Committeesly the argument put forward firstly | :21:27. | :21:29. | |
because, with respect, I still believe the honourable member for | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
Glasgow North is confusing the stock and the flow. The fact is that the | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
money put into CDC will be recycled. So, for the sake of argument, if an | :21:40. | :21:46. | |
investment is 10-12 years in length and CDC had ?12 billion in the pot, | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
it will be in a position to maintain the current rate of investment | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
$10-12 years in length and CDC had ?12 billion in the pot, it will be | :21:55. | :21:56. | |
in a position to maintain the current rate of investment of a | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
billion a year. It isn't fair to compare what happens in a capital | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
stock used for equity, death investment with the annual | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
expenditure of a department. Secondly, the question of demand, | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
which the member of Cardiff south #25uked about, the demand is almost | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
limitless. It's calculated 2.5 trillion dollars is going to be | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
required annually by 2030 to meet the SCGs which is why the relevant | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
question is not the demand for this money but the question of the | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
absorptive capacity. Thirdly, this is enable legislation, setting a | :22:34. | :22:37. | |
ceiling, a maximum limit. This is not saying this is the amount of | :22:38. | :22:43. | |
money it will get. This money is designed to be a patient, long-term | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
investment. The three-year review proposed simply will not work for | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
investments which are intended to be on average ten years in length. I | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
give way. I thank the minister for giving way. Is it not the case that | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
if this bill is passed and you add the consequences of that to the fact | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
over 25% of DFID's spending will be through other Government | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
departments, the consequences of that is that over 50% of our aid | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
will no longer be spent through DFID as a Government department. Does | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
that raise serious questions about the Government's intentions for DFID | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
to remain as a stand-alone department with a place at the | :23:23. | :23:27. | |
Cabinet table if over 50% of the department's spending will be spent | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
by the CDC and other Government departments? No other Government | :23:33. | :23:35. | |
department would come to this House and ask for over 50% of its | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
resources to be spent by other means. There are two distinct points | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
there. The question of DFID's spending and the other spending. CDC | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
is 100% owned by the development for international development. That's | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
one of the reasons why a number of these amendments are not | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
appropriate. In terms of proportion of money spent as the honourable | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
member for Bedford pointed out, the small increase we'll be talking | :24:09. | :24:13. | |
about in terms of the annual amount CDC can invest will be much smaller | :24:14. | :24:18. | |
than comparable organisations in Holland, Germany and France. About a | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
third of the amount that O PE C, one of the US can investment, only about | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
a sixth of what the IFC puts out a year. We're not taking | :24:30. | :24:36. | |
comparatively, globialy about that money. About 8%. That other 92% | :24:37. | :24:42. | |
would continue to go in the normal way through NG 06789s, through | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
organisations such as Unicef for the objectives we pursued. One thing | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
which would be helpful for the minister to clarify is the time | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
period over which this increase, if granted, would be played out with | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
CDC, the explanatory notes to the bill say clearly the ?6 billion is | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
intended to be use in the this Spending Review. Is that his view | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
and what about the 12 billion? Is this over a ten or 20 year period, | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
five year period? Give us a ballpark figure. Thank you. In order to | :25:13. | :25:19. | |
clarify, the six billion represents an additional 4.5 billion. They | :25:20. | :25:23. | |
already have 1.5 billion. We would anticipate that would cover the next | :25:24. | :25:31. | |
five-year period. I don't expect them to draw down the max, I expect | :25:32. | :25:36. | |
it to be lower, to make the kinds of investment they made last year. The | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
next six billion, not an additional 12, would apply to the next period. | :25:42. | :25:45. | |
So the next five-year period. We're looking at a steady state allocation | :25:46. | :25:51. | |
which might at maximum allow them to meet the kind of expenditure levels | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
they got next year. If I can move on to new clause 2, 5, 4 and amendment | :25:56. | :26:02. | |
6, these are essentially a series of clauses about restricting the power | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
of the Government to give money to CDC. Either saying it should not be | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
able to boost the amount of money that CDC has through delegated | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
legislation or trying to ask for a strategy to be in place before the | :26:17. | :26:24. | |
money is dispersed. Again, these are appropriate. The role of Parliament | :26:25. | :26:32. | |
as PEsified for CDC in the 148 act and 199 act relate to two things. | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
Setting up this body and creating a cap on the amount of money that this | :26:38. | :26:42. | |
body is given. It is not normal for Parliament to get involved in the | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
detailed implementation of specialist business cases. That is | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
true in everything that the ledge Is hatture does in its relationship to | :26:51. | :26:56. | |
the executive. The money allocated through the budget is then delegated | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
to civil servants and to the Government to determine how that | :27:00. | :27:03. | |
money is spent. The same will be true here. But, the strategy that | :27:04. | :27:09. | |
will come forward will reflect very closely the argument the that have | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
been made in committee stage that have been made in report stage, we | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
will continue to remain in very close touch with members of | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
Parliament and we will be judged by our ability to deliver through that | :27:22. | :27:24. | |
strategy something that will address those concerns. Above all, through | :27:25. | :27:30. | |
the development impact grid and the development impact assessments on | :27:31. | :27:34. | |
the individual business cases which will address these particular cases. | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
Yes? The minister specifically commented on the use of tax havens | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
by CDC and whether he and other ministers in the department will | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
echo previous statements by the Secretary of State and instruct CDC | :27:51. | :27:55. | |
to desist from using tax havens for future investments? This is an | :27:56. | :28:00. | |
invitation to move on to the last group of amendments, new clause 8, | :28:01. | :28:07. | |
9, 3 and 7, one of which relates to the question of offshore financial | :28:08. | :28:11. | |
centres. These are restrictions op what CDC itself can do. There is a | :28:12. | :28:17. | |
suggestion there should be an annual obligation to produce reports on CDC | :28:18. | :28:23. | |
and restrictions on the routes through which CDC can put its money | :28:24. | :28:31. | |
and restrict the investment in which CDC, can invest. On the question of | :28:32. | :28:43. | |
IKI CDC has been scrutinised by the National Audit Office, by Public | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
Accounts Committee, we expect it to be Krout knewed in that way and we | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
welcome scrutiny from Ikai. We do not think it is the position of the | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
Government to impose obligations on an independent regulator. It should | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
be for Ikai to determine its priorities where it thinks the | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
problems are and be able to apply that Krout any accordingly. It may | :29:07. | :29:12. | |
not determine an annual scrutiny of ten year investments does not make | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
sense and do it more trick wently. But that should be for Ikai. Not for | :29:18. | :29:24. | |
this House. We do not put our money through tax haveence if by that you | :29:25. | :29:30. | |
mean that CDC is ever attempting to avoid tax or to conceal its | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
activities. CDC is not involved in that. CDC only invests in offshore | :29:36. | :29:42. | |
financial centres approved by the OECD at its highest level. We take | :29:43. | :29:47. | |
on board the points made, the honourable member for Cardiff south | :29:48. | :29:52. | |
and others, we will be pushing EOCD to improve those standards further. | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
We will focus on those offshore financial centres and we will only | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
use them for two reasons. One, because occasionally, we we are | :30:01. | :30:05. | |
investing in the Central African Republic, it may be necessary to | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
protect UK taxpayers' money by not putting all the as sets of CDC into | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
jury Is tickses where we can secure that money. Secondly, we may do so | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
in order to pool money from other investors. That relates to the | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
suggestion that we should only operate through London. It would be | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
very difficult to convince other African investors to invest in funds | :30:27. | :30:31. | |
in London. They would face a triple taxation. Taxation in country of | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
origin, in country of business and in London. We hope, through CDC's | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
operations, to ensure every dollar we spend brings in $3, $5 or even | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
$30 of additional money. That brings me to the last | :30:46. | :30:56. | |
restrictions proposed by the House, one of those is the number of | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
countries in which CDC should invest. We don't think appropriate | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
for primary legislation to restrict what the parliament can do to | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
respond to a flexible, changing world. We would not have imagined in | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
2010 for example that there would have been needed in Syria. If we | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
stipulated only lower-income countries or least developed | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
countries could receive the money, the suggestion from the chairman for | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
the international development committee and its members that CDC | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
work in Syria, Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon would be impossible. We need | :31:36. | :31:39. | |
the flexibility for a changing world, and the world affected by | :31:40. | :31:41. | |
conflict. We also need to allow for conflict. We also need to allow for | :31:42. | :31:46. | |
the possibility another government may take a different view on very | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
poor people in countries like India. A lot of the very poorest people in | :31:52. | :31:55. | |
the world live in countries like India and it's a perfectly valid | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
discussion for a government and its department to have and not be | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
restricted by primary legislation to decide whether to put money in that | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
country. Finally we have to think about the cross-border | :32:10. | :32:12. | |
possibilities, again a restriction that prevented us putting money into | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
South Africa for example would mean we couldn't put money into Brindrod, | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
the great South African company, because we could not do cross-border | :32:26. | :32:39. | |
negotiations. Finally, it is not appropriate for individual members | :32:40. | :32:43. | |
to ensure that we restrict those members, those sectors indefinitely. | :32:44. | :32:47. | |
It needs to be at the discretion of the department to determine what | :32:48. | :32:58. | |
those sectors are. In particular, private health care, I have seen | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
myself and many other members have seen the way in which private health | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
care providers are able to reach some of the most needy people in the | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
world who are not able to access public health care. Minerals can be | :33:10. | :33:15. | |
in environments such as Afghanistan almost the only drivers of decent | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
economic growth and there are very few other options available. Real | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
estate, we need to look at the people who construct the buildings. | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
Not the people who use them. Those investments in the construction | :33:30. | :33:31. | |
industry are benefiting the people who build them and that's why CDC | :33:32. | :33:41. | |
makes those investments. On palm oil, many jobs are secured by that | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
investment and decent investment in infrastructure and health as well. | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
In renewable energy would be a great pity if the only investments we | :33:51. | :33:55. | |
could make in energy in Africa in renewables, that would not be | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
acceptable in this country. In Africa where they have struggled to | :33:59. | :34:04. | |
build six megawatts of generating capacity, 6000 megawatts of | :34:05. | :34:07. | |
generating capacity over a decade period, to rule out investments in | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
natural gas would have a fundamental event on the economic future of | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
Africa which is why to conclude this has been an extremely thoughtful | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
analysis for which we are very grateful. The strategy will | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
demonstrate we have listened hard to all the points in the second | :34:23. | :34:27. | |
reading, the points in the committee stage, but we believe this simple | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
legislation sets the right balance between economic development and | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
above all makes a significant contribution to the lives of the | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
world's poorest people and with that I would ask these amendments be | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
withdrawn. The question is that new clause won't be read a second time. | :34:54. | :34:59. | |
Aye? No? Clear the lobbies. The question is that new clause one | :35:00. | :36:17. | |
be read a second time. As many of that opinion say aye? No? | :36:18. | :43:28. | |
DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order! Order! The ayes to the right 246. The ins to | :43:29. | :49:07. | |
the left, 293. -- the nos to the left, 293. The nos have it. Unlock! | :49:08. | :49:25. | |
We now come to amendment 3. The question is that amendment 3 be | :49:26. | :49:35. | |
made. As many of that opinion say aye, the contrary, no. Clear the | :49:36. | :49:37. | |
lobbies. DEPUTY SPEAKER: Order. The question | :49:38. | :51:10. | |
is that amindment 3 be made, as many of that opinion say aye, the | :51:11. | :51:20. | |
contrary, no. For the nos, Chris Eden Harris and Steve Brian. Thanks, | :51:21. | :51:22. | |
folks. Ayes, 244. Noes, 299. The noes have | :51:23. | :02:44. | |
it. The question is the bill now be read a third time. I beg to move | :02:45. | :02:55. | |
that this bill be read a third time. If I could just begin again by | :02:56. | :03:00. | |
reiterating my thanks and the tribute we owe to right honourable | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
members on every side of the House for their shared belief in the | :03:05. | :03:12. | |
importance of international and. At the core of this Bill is our moral | :03:13. | :03:15. | |
obligation to some of the most vulnerable and poorest people in the | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
world. Also pay tribute to the important points raised, which will | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
be reflected in the new strategy as it comes forward. If I could just | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
very briefly just lay out once more why we believe this is a good piece | :03:31. | :03:38. | |
of legislation. The core of this is our understanding there is extreme | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
poverty in the world, that there is extreme suffering in the world, and | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
that economic develop meant is going to be a very important part of | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
addressing that. There's an enormous demand in the poorest countries of | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
the world for well-paid jobs. It's one of the first things any one | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
discovers when we go to Africa or any other developing country, and | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
indeed as the chairman of the International of element committee | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
pointed out in his speech, currently 90% of the growth, 90% of the | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
employment in the poorest countries of the world is driven by the | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
private sector. 15 million more jobs a year are required in Africa. Every | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
one of those well-paid jobs is an opportunity for that family to | :04:26. | :04:28. | |
deliver the stuff we all care about. That is their opportunity to provide | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
education for their children, provide the health care therefore | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
Molly needs, and through the revenue that these jobs generate for the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
Government, above all that is the long-term sustainable future. That's | :04:41. | :04:44. | |
what allows the Government to pay for its education system. It allows | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
it to pay for its health care system. It allows the Government, if | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
there is an earthquake or natural disaster, to have the resources to | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
address it. So in the end the only long-term, sustainable path will be | :04:59. | :05:06. | |
to generate that growth. Why CDC? Because CDC brings together two | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
important things - the rigour of the private sector, in other words the | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
ability of the private sector to work out whether these investments | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
make sense, are there genuinely markets for these goods? Can these | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
jobs really be sustained the one hand? And on the other hand the | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
values of the public sector, making sure we are going into the hardest | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
countries in the world, making sure we are renewable energy in the | :05:31. | :05:35. | |
Central African Republic, making sure we are getting into Sierra | :05:36. | :05:41. | |
Leone when Ebola happens, and above all making sure these investments | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
are not short-term commercial returns but patients, long-term | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
investments that the commercial sector often will not deliver. Why | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
CDC? Since 1948 it has not only been the longest serving but the best | :05:55. | :05:58. | |
development finance institution in the world, proven in the 1960s in | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
its investments in Kenya, but it has improved its much more recently with | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
the fantastic reforms that have been introduced, reforms we have talked | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
about at all stages of this Bill. Reforms on salary, transparency, | :06:15. | :06:20. | |
offshore financial centres, reforms on the geography in which we invest, | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
reforms in the sector in which we have invested, and all of this | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
summed up in the development impact great. That's what answers a lot of | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
the points made in the discussion today. That's what allows us to make | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
sure every investment focuses on areas that generate the most jobs, | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
that are in the countries where investment is the most difficult, | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
where the least capital is available and where the GDP per capita is | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
lowest. You can see this in the real world, in the indirect jobs created | :06:52. | :07:02. | |
by CDC. You can see it in the investments they are making, in | :07:03. | :07:04. | |
places like Blondie on the Central African Republic. You can see it in | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
the hydroelectric investment. You can see it actually in the global | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
investment, where CDC's investment will help to generate 5000 megawatts | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
of power in Africa over the next decade, and putting that in context, | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
Africa only managed 6000 megawatts over the previous decade. That's | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
almost the entire generation of Africa over the previous decade | :07:31. | :07:36. | |
which will be driven by single company supported by CDC. The value | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
for money is there for the taxpayer because it is recycled. The need is | :07:41. | :07:45. | |
there. We can see this in the fact that we need $2.5 trillion of | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
investment by 2030. So in conclusion, there are many other | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
things that our department will do other than CDC, much of the money | :07:57. | :08:03. | |
will continue to go through NGOs such as Oxfam, a lot of our | :08:04. | :08:07. | |
investments will be with valued partners such as Unicef. More than | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
90% of the money we will spend through overseas assistance will be | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
on humanitarian assistance, and within that not all the money and | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
economic develop it will go through CDC. It will also go through our | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
investments that take place through support to governments, technical | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
assistance. But that CDC investment combining the rigour of the private | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
sector, the focus on markets, the values of the public sector reflect | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
the values of the British public, the British public that cares about | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
poverty, that shows in their own philanthropic giving how much they | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
care about some of the most vulnerable people in the world and | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
we are showing our respect of the British people by pushing forward | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
with a proven model that will provide the sustainable growth | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
required to address some of the most vulnerable and poorest people in the | :09:02. | :09:09. | |
world. This is our moral obligation. The question is the bill now be read | :09:10. | :09:19. | |
a third time. Can I firstly association myself with the | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
Minister's comments in particular to pay thanks to all the honourable and | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
right honourable members across the House that have taken part in what I | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
believe has been very constructive debate in which I believe we have | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
furthered certainly whether or not the amendments today of the new | :09:42. | :09:46. | |
clauses have gone through, certainly I believe it has been utilised in | :09:47. | :09:53. | |
the best possible way and we have heard from Honourable members across | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
the House that have forwarded some very important point. Can I also | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
offer my thanks to all of the NGOs that supported us throughout this | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
process, to those that came before us to present written and oral | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
evidence at committee stage, and the staff whose assistance has been | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
invaluable, as it always is. I would further like to thank my honourable | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
friends who have spoken with great concern and passion about this bill, | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
particularly my honourable friend, the Member for Cardiff South and | :10:29. | :10:37. | |
Penarth whose experience is widely respected and visibly expressed here | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
today in the debate again. My honourable friend, the Member for | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
Wills South, who isn't in her place, both served outstandingly on the | :10:51. | :10:53. | |
public bill committee and I do not want their valued contributions to | :10:54. | :10:58. | |
go unnoticed this afternoon and indeed the honourable friend for | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
Liverpool West Derby, the chair of the International Development Select | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
Committee, who has always made a passionate case and has, I believe, | :11:09. | :11:16. | |
a very informed stance on the matter is before us today. Mr Deputy | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
Speaker, let me be clear. I think in this constructive debate today, | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
members on either side of the benches have been very clear. Nobody | :11:28. | :11:35. | |
has opposed the principal or the spirit of the CDC itself. Nobody has | :11:36. | :11:46. | |
criticised the role of the CDC and the commission statement behind the | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
CDC. The point that members on all sides of the House, and in | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
particular from these benches, have made time and time again is that | :11:57. | :12:07. | |
what cannot be lost within this is the founding principle behind the | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
CDC, which is poverty alleviation, which has been quite rightly stated | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
on all sides of the House. As I said, we have had a constructive | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
debate, both at committee stage and here, and all the amendments that | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
have been put in have had support from across the House. And the | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
amendments were there, partly probing amendments but also as | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
amendments to strengthen. Mr Deputy Speaker, for the passage of this | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
bill, we outlined a number of concerns that we held over the | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
provisions within it, including on the accountability and scrutiny of | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
the investments that are made by the CDC on the need of the CDC to focus | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
their investments on efforts to alleviate poverty and on the | :13:00. | :13:02. | |
necessity of a business case from the CDC. These are concerns that | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
have been fundamental in our position on this Bill and they are | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
concerns we have sought strong assurances on from the Government. | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
On the issue of accountability and scrutiny, we had concerns, as | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
illustrated in our amendments, over the fact the investments made by the | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
CDC are not independently assessed on a frequent and regular basis. | :13:28. | :13:34. | |
When such assessments do not take place, it undermines the credibility | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
of the CDC and be investments and it weakens public confidence that | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
taxpayers' money is being spent by the CDC on efforts to alleviate | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
poverty and help the poorest in the world. It is vital that every pound, | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
every penny of development assistance, goes towards this goal | :13:55. | :14:00. | |
on strong, independent scrutiny of the impact of assessments would | :14:01. | :14:02. | |
assure this. We have had assurances today from | :14:03. | :14:11. | |
the Minister and we had assurances at the committee stage that he would | :14:12. | :14:18. | |
welcome further independent assessment of this from the | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
Independent commission for aid impact and I feel that the Minister | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
has listened and has come forward with that and I am very grateful to | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
him. Further, we are assured that the annual reports and accounts | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
provided by the CDC contain ample information and if there are | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
discrepancies they will be held to account by the either the Public | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
Accounts Committee or the International development committee | :14:45. | :14:51. | |
who I am sure will make such discrepancies are available as they | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
have done in the past. It is vitally important that we ensure that the | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
CDC is focused on alleviating poverty. The Department's legal aim | :15:05. | :15:12. | |
and purpose, with investments involved in constructing luxury | :15:13. | :15:14. | |
hotels and shopping centres in well-developed areas in the past, | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
there have been real concerns on this side of the House that the CDC | :15:20. | :15:24. | |
would use this additional financing to return to a similar position. | :15:25. | :15:29. | |
However, the report published just before the second reading makes | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
clear that this is no longer the case following the important | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
reforms, second motion by the right honourable member for Sutton | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
Coldfield who is in his place today. It is fair to say, Mr Deputy | :15:42. | :15:52. | |
Speaker, that the number of concerns that have been raised today, the | :15:53. | :15:54. | |
Minister has been kind enough to give assurances to some of those and | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
therefore, we will not be opposing this bill in its third reading | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
today. Thank you. Whether you live in the UK or in Tanzania or in | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
Colombia, the most important route out of poverty is to have a job, a | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
good job or a good likelihood. That is why I fundamentally support the | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
work of CDC, it has done excellent work over the last nearly 70 years, | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
right across the world and in recent years, it has concentrated | :16:26. | :16:28. | |
particularly on the most needy countries, those places where there | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
is the highest level of unemployment, where there is the | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
greatest level of poverty and I welcome the fact that the government | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
is going to invest more through CDC in the coming years. But I think the | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
debates today and in committee and at other times have highlighted that | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
their CDC has got to be careful, it has got to invest in those things | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
which commercial investors would not normally invest in, otherwise it | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
should be the commercial sector that invests in them. It needs to invest | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
in areas that create the highest number of jobs for the investment | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
made and often that will be agriculture and often that will be | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
investments which are difficult. It is not easy to invest in agriculture | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
in remote areas, but that is what the CDC is therefore, it is not | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
therefore an easy life. But I know, that under the management it has had | :17:24. | :17:28. | |
recently and with the calibre of staff it has, it is up to those | :17:29. | :17:35. | |
challenges and I welcome the bill. Patrick Grady. Thank you. Can I add | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
my thanks to all the stakeholders and staff who have contributed to | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
the build process? This is the first piece of legislation I have worked | :17:46. | :17:48. | |
on as a spokesperson and I am particularly grateful to him for his | :17:49. | :17:57. | |
advice to my own team who provided input and I would like to rank sum | :17:58. | :18:06. | |
of my honourable friends for their input. I would also recognise the | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
commitment and hard work of the staff at the CDC itself and there | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
are positive engagement with the opposition parties as the bill has | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
been progressed. This has been the first piece of legislation in this | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
Parliament, but I wonder if it will be the last. The minister might be | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
aware that I tabled a question to the Secretary of State about the | :18:29. | :18:34. | |
applicability of the 2006 act, now that it is required and been | :18:35. | :18:40. | |
replaced by the sustainable development goals. She will know | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
that the committee proposed a consolidated act to bring together | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
all the different pieces of legislation passed over recent years | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
and perhaps that is not such a bad idea, especially as the debate about | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
the purpose of development seems to be getting louder. As my honourable | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
friend said, throughout the Christmas recess, there seems to | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
have been a drip feed of very negative stories about aid spending | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
particularly in the gutter press and it is absolutely right that examples | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
of waste and inefficiency are exposed and questions asked about | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
value for money, but the answer is to improve transparency and | :19:19. | :19:20. | |
efficiency and to measure impact, especially over the longer term and | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
not simply to cut off the supply or take heavy-handed, but ultimately | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
counter-productive action. The debate on the CDC bill has | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
capitalised on a broader debate about aid and the government can be | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
assured in the coming months that the SNP will be happy to support a | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
cross-party and public consensus about our moral duty to help people | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
in need around the world and the symbolism and impact of meeting the | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
0.7% aid target. As we have just heard in the report stage, if the | :19:52. | :19:57. | |
higher standards of transparency and effectiveness are going to be | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
demanded, then they must equally be applied across government and to | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
arm's-length agency starting with the CDC in this bill. The government | :20:05. | :20:10. | |
did not accept amendments, but I do welcome, as the opposition front | :20:11. | :20:12. | |
bench has done, the commitments it has given and they will hold to | :20:13. | :20:19. | |
account these commitments. There is a consensus behind the need for | :20:20. | :20:24. | |
continued improvement of the CDC we want to maintain that consensus. The | :20:25. | :20:26. | |
government will see this legislation passed today and it is unlikely due | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
to the nature of the bill that the House of Lords will have any | :20:34. | :20:36. | |
opportunity to amend or delay its progress to the statute book. The | :20:37. | :20:40. | |
government has been given a significant responsibility, it is | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
asking for the power to quadruple the budget of an agency which has | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
chequered history, the CDC has had significant success but it has also | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
had significant concerns that have been raised and do remain. If its | :20:52. | :20:58. | |
resource base is to be scaled up, so must its accountability and the | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
standards it is held to and I hope that the Secretary of State and her | :21:02. | :21:05. | |
ministers will confirm that they are prepared for the CDC and the | :21:06. | :21:08. | |
Department and themselves as ministers to be held to account. | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
Three sensors, can I say that I think both the moral and practical | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
responsibility and opportunity to aid other countries, if I look back | :21:20. | :21:24. | |
to Christian Aid, set up after the war to develop Europe, the success | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
of the next 20 years was fantastic and I think the same thing can apply | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
to Africa and other parts of the country as well and the CDC has the | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
opportunity with infrastructure and education to do that. My final point | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
is that we have to go and reduce barriers, provide opportunities and | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
try to welcome other countries having the same aspirations and | :21:44. | :21:45. | |
achievements that we have had ourselves. Thank you. I want to | :21:46. | :21:52. | |
place on record by thanks to the clerk of bills and my colleagues who | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
have taken part and give an excellent contributions on all sides | :21:58. | :22:01. | |
of the House to what has been an informative and useful process of | :22:02. | :22:08. | |
scrutiny of this bill. I wish to make a few final brief points as we | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
approach this stage. I was pleased to hear at the ministers setting out | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
a bit more detail on the kind of time period that we can expect the | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
CDC can be drawing down money is over and his suggestion that it is a | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
five or ten year period is much more reassuring than some of the | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
suggestions that were earlier in the process. I would say that the | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
temptation will exist to draw that down at a faster rate because in the | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
reporting of how our aid is calculated and what proportion their | :22:40. | :22:44. | |
CDC counts towards that. Will I take what the minister said with great | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
sincerity, I would urge him to take against those who suggest dumping | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
money into CDC as a way of artificially meeting the target, he | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
should only go there with a clear plan and a business case and a clear | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
understanding of how that is going to contribute to poverty | :23:01. | :23:05. | |
eradication. I'm concerned that we are not going far enough on tax | :23:06. | :23:08. | |
havens. I listen to what the minister said and I will look at | :23:09. | :23:18. | |
with interest to that strategy. I wholeheartedly agree with the point | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
that my honourable friend made about what role CDC should be playing. It | :23:22. | :23:28. | |
should not be going for an easy live ongoing work commercial resources | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
would already go. There were some suggestions that it was the only | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
source of funding for some of these investments, that is patently not | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
the case and not only with our development spending overruled, but | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
with CDC we should be acting as a catalyst for the very best in | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
poverty eradication, the very best focus on some of those difficult | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
sectors, difficult areas where others will not go, but also for the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
highest standards in sustainability, human rights and all those other | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
issues, we ought to act as a catalyst, not just going for an easy | :24:02. | :24:08. | |
return and an easy life. The thing that I still cannot quite understand | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
and I hope the ministers will reflect on this is that the | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
Secretary of State laid out some good principles in her letter on | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
December the 16th about transparency and open breakdowns of salaries and | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
tenders, material costs and due diligence in supply chains and | :24:24. | :24:28. | |
compliance, disclosures of conflicts of interest and I do not see why | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
those cannot be applied equally to CDC as they will be applied to other | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
spenders of our aid spending and I would urge the ministers to look | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
carefully at this. I don't see why those can be applied, it is a | :24:41. | :24:43. | |
reasonable set of requirements and I think it would be helpful to CDC. | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
Finally, the issue around the country is that CDC focuses on, | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
there is a shift, CDC is investing more in the poorest countries but it | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
needs to go further and I would urge ministers not to have any poverty of | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
ambition in the kind of framework and parameters that they set for | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
CDC, particularly in future disbursements ensuring that the | :25:07. | :25:08. | |
money goes to the poorest countries and not middle income countries who | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
can draw down on other sources of funding and resources of finance. I | :25:14. | :25:18. | |
will conclude by saying one final thing, it was reassuring in the | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
course of this debate to hear many positive voices making that case for | :25:22. | :25:25. | |
our wider role in international development, wider support for the | :25:26. | :25:28. | |
aid target and it was good to hear the Prime Minister rejecting the | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
more shrill views that have come from some of the other forces on her | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
own adventures and from the likes of the Daily Mail suggesting that we | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
should scrap the aid target. She rejected that, this is not a zero | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
sum game, if we ignore gross poverty and instability and insecurity, it | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
is not only morally wrong, but it is fundamentally going against our own | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
national interest and national security and global security and | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
stability and those are good reasons about why we need to maintain with | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
reasonable scrutiny, reasonable questions asked about all areas of | :26:06. | :26:08. | |
our development spending, that wider commitment to the poorest people and | :26:09. | :26:14. | |
countries in the world. The question is that the bill go on the third | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
time. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, no. . The ayes habit. We now come to | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
the programme motion to be mood formally. The question is as on the | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :26:31. | :26:36. | |
no. . The ayes habit. We now come to the next one. Consideration of Lord | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
members. I must draw attention to the fact... I must draw attention to | :26:45. | :26:57. | |
the fact that financial privilege engaged by the Lords amendments. I | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
also remind the House that certain of the motions relating to those | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
amendments will be certified as relating exclusively to England or | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
to England and Wales or to England and England and Wales as set out on | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
the selection paper. If the House divides on the certification motion, | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
a double or triple majority will be required for the motion to be | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
passed. We will begin with a government motion to disagree with | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
the Lords amendment 24 on which we will consider it the other | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
amendments and motions listed on the selection paper. I call the minister | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
to move to disagree with the Lords amendments 24. Thank you Mr Deputy | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
Speaker, I do beg to move that this house disagrees with the amendment | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
20 four. This first group of amendments include ten new clauses | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
added to the bill in the House of Lords against the advice of the | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
government. They cover four separate issues, the funding of legal | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
representation for bereaved families at inquests were the police are | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
uninterested person, the maximum sentence for the offence of stalking | :28:07. | :28:11. | |
including fear of violence or serious alarm or distress and the | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
rights and entitlements of victims of crime. The government has | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
reflected carefully on the debates in all of the amendments in the | :28:18. | :28:22. | |
House of Lords, in relation to Lords amendment 13 forwards to increase | :28:23. | :28:28. | |
from a five to ten years of his bid to the maximum sentence for the most | :28:29. | :28:31. | |
serious stalking offence with the person is in fear of violence. This | :28:32. | :28:34. | |
government is determined to do everything it can to protect victims | :28:35. | :28:40. | |
of what can be a terrifying crime. The House will recall that only last | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
month we announce plans to introduce a new stalking protection order | :28:45. | :28:48. | |
which will provide a new precharge option to the police to help them | :28:49. | :28:51. | |
protect victims of strangers stopping in a similar way to orders | :28:52. | :28:55. | |
protecting victims of domestic violence and abuse. | :28:56. | :29:04. | |
They are to be much commended for their campaign, including their | :29:05. | :29:12. | |
pursuit of a bill on behalf of a Cheltenham GP, who was stalked the | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
seven years by a former patient. Each case must of course be | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
considered by the courts on the facts of that case. But given the | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
harm that can be caused by the most serious talking cases, we are | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
persuaded in such cases, judges should have greater latitude to pass | :29:31. | :29:36. | |
a higher sentence that affords greater protection for victims. The | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
government amendment will therefore do three things. Firstly, it will | :29:43. | :29:45. | |
increase from five to ten years imprisonment, the maximum sentence | :29:46. | :29:50. | |
and offensive stalking involving fear of violence or distress. | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
Second, it will increase the maximum sentence for the equivalent | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
harassment offences are putting a person in fear of violence. This | :29:59. | :30:02. | |
will help retain the consistency of approach to the most serious | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
harassment offences. Thirdly, it will increase from seven to 14 years | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
imprisonment the maximum sentence for the racially or religiously | :30:12. | :30:14. | |
aggravated a version of the section for offences. In the normal way, | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
these increases in penalties will only apply to offences committed on | :30:19. | :30:23. | |
or after the date of commencement. But I trust this amendment will have | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
the support of my honourable friend and indeed this House. Turning to | :30:28. | :30:32. | |
the other amendment in this group, the government remains firmly of the | :30:33. | :30:36. | |
view that however well-intentioned the motives behind them, they do | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
pre-empt the proper consideration of what our complex issues, and | :30:42. | :30:44. | |
accordingly this how should disagree with the amendments. That we take | :30:45. | :30:49. | |
each of the issues in turn. Number 24 would require the Prime Minister | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
to proceed with what is commonly known as 11 syn enquiry into the | :30:56. | :30:58. | |
relationships between the police and the media -- 11 syn enquiry. It is | :30:59. | :31:05. | |
vital please appalled higher standards, whether in their dealings | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
with the media or for that matter anyone else. Given the extent that | :31:10. | :31:14. | |
criminal investigations into phone hacking and other illegal practices | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
by the press that have taken place since the Levenson enquiry, and | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
given the implementation of the inquiry, given reforms in the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
police, the government must consider whether proceeding were part two is | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
appropriate, proportionate and in the public interest. As honourable | :31:32. | :31:36. | |
members will be aware, the government has been seeking the | :31:37. | :31:40. | |
views of the public and parties, including those victims of abuse, | :31:41. | :31:45. | |
through a consultation which closes today. I will give way. It closed 17 | :31:46. | :31:53. | |
minutes ago. The truth is that the government promised that there was | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
one enquiry with two parts. As far as I can see now, the government | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
minister at the dispatch box is effectively saying, nudge, nudge, we | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
aren't going to proceed with part two. If that is the case, he should | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
be straightforward and tell us so now. I would say do the honourable | :32:10. | :32:17. | |
gentleman, he should have a look again at Hansford, that is not what | :32:18. | :32:21. | |
I said. I was clear, we will seek the views of the public, and we've | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
got to look at what is appropriate, proportionate and in the public | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
interest. The consultation sought views on whether proceeding with | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
part two is still appropriate. As the last of the criminal cases has | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
only recently concluded, we do believe it is a appropriate time to | :32:39. | :32:45. | |
take stock, as the Secretary of State herself outlined. Submissions | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
received from this consultation will therefore be important in helping | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
inform the government's thinking. You may also be aware and | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
application has been made to review that consultation. Whilst I cannot | :32:57. | :33:00. | |
comment on the current legal proceedings, the government has | :33:01. | :33:03. | |
committed not to take any final decisions relating to the | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
consultation until these legal proceedings have concluded. Given | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
this consultation and ongoing related legal proceedings, I will | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
therefore suggest to the House this is not an appropriate matter for | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
further legislation at this moment. I hope the government will not be | :33:20. | :33:26. | |
intimidated by a campaign which the press are waiting at the moment. To | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
try to deter the government from implementing the Levenson | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
recommendations. Can I tell him, yesterday I submitted my monthly | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
article for the Aldershot News, as I have been invited to do. Very good | :33:42. | :33:48. | |
reading, normally, if I may so. And it was about press freedom. And I | :33:49. | :33:54. | |
got an e-mail yesterday evening saying that sorry, there would not | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
be a punishment of it, because it is contradictory to their stance on | :34:01. | :34:05. | |
free press. Extraordinary that the Aldershot News, owned by the daily | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
Mirror group, feels that it is so vulnerable they can't accept an | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
article by myself and my colleague for North East Hampshire, he is the | :34:15. | :34:19. | |
other contributed. Can I make this point? Apart from my criticism of | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
the Aldershot News. It does illustrate that is a real paranoia | :34:26. | :34:28. | |
in the media about this, and that it is our responsibility to be | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
absolutely straightforward about this and recognise what we are | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
seeking to do is not protect ourselves, but to protect ordinary | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
people. My honourable friend, he makes an important point, but I want | :34:43. | :34:46. | |
to be clear, the government will make a decision on this once we have | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
a chance to review the outcome, and in light of the outcome of the legal | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
proceedings, and not before they have concluded. Won't be awkward for | :34:55. | :35:01. | |
the government if they completely ignore the press recognition panel | :35:02. | :35:08. | |
's submission? The independently press regulation was what they were | :35:09. | :35:16. | |
set up to do, and they are calling for section 40 to be implemented. | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
They will review it, the Secretary of State will look carefully at it. | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
We are committed not to make decisions early. This speaker has | :35:27. | :35:33. | |
certified this amendment is engaging financial privilege. Our view is | :35:34. | :35:37. | |
amendment 24 is necessary, inappropriate and ill timed. Turning | :35:38. | :35:42. | |
to 96, the government understands the reasoning behind it. We seek to | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
provide public funding legal representation for families at | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
inquests. It may now be almost seven months since 's house mass debated | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
this issue at report stage of this bill. But the position has not | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
changed. Our view remains we should await the report expected this | :36:01. | :36:05. | |
spring from Bishop James Jones, into the experiences of the Hillsborough | :36:06. | :36:10. | |
families. The opposition has argued it goes beyond Hillsboro, and I | :36:11. | :36:15. | |
don't dispute that. The experience the families will have significant | :36:16. | :36:19. | |
relevance for other families facing different tragic circumstances. The | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
issue of legal representation at inquests will undoubtedly be one | :36:23. | :36:28. | |
aspect of those experiences. This is James's report will provide | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
learning, so it is right we do not seek to pre-empt his review -- | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
Bishop James. For this reason, I predicted the House this amendment | :36:41. | :36:45. | |
is at this point premature. As with other advancements, we must take | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
into account the potential significant financial implications | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
of amendment 90 six. The resource implications are just one | :36:54. | :36:58. | |
consideration, and can't be ignored. The Speaker has certified this | :36:59. | :37:01. | |
amendment as engaging financial privilege. Finally, 1362142, the | :37:02. | :37:09. | |
seek to make further provision in respect to victims rights -- 136 to | :37:10. | :37:19. | |
142. We will protect burnable victims and witnesses, and spare | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
them the ordeal of going to court, through video links and pre-recorded | :37:24. | :37:29. | |
cross exam nation. These amendments would result in an unstructured | :37:30. | :37:32. | |
framework of rights and entitlements that is not founded on evidence of | :37:33. | :37:37. | |
gaps or deficiencies, or even of what victims of crime want and need. | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
Some amendments are necessary because a duplicate provisions which | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
have been acting on by the government already. Could the | :37:46. | :37:52. | |
Minister tell the House when the Green paper considering the need for | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
a victim role, which was first mooted last year, will be published? | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
I would say we are committed to getting measures to strengthen | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
further the rights of victims, we need to take the time to get it | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
right. We will announce plans in due course. It is quite important be | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
clear 138 and 139 similarly unnecessary, as the training of all | :38:16. | :38:21. | |
staff is taken very seriously. In relation to 141 on quality | :38:22. | :38:24. | |
standards, the victims commissioners role encompasses good practice, and | :38:25. | :38:31. | |
the operation of the victims code, which is a detailed set of victims | :38:32. | :38:35. | |
entitlements. In addition, Police and Crime Commissioners enter into | :38:36. | :38:41. | |
grant funding agreement with the Secretary of State for Justice to | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
receive the funds to do so. Those agreements set out a range of | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
minimal standards for the services. We are reviewing existing standards | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
to make sure we have the best possible framework in place. These | :38:55. | :39:00. | |
amendments individually and taken together are uncosted, vague and | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
duplicative. They could impose significant obligations of financial | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
burdens on the criminal justice system. In relation to amendment | :39:08. | :39:12. | |
142, it is not clear what the purpose of directing a homicide | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
report would be. It is unnecessary. There is already a requirement for a | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
review to identify lessons to be learned from the death in domestic | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
homicide cases. Putting aside the many difficulties we have with a | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
detail of this, government is looking at what is required to | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
strengthen further the right of victims of crime. We are looking at | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
available information about: clients and look and how it can be improved. | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
We are focused on making sure we get this work right. We will ensure any | :39:43. | :39:47. | |
future reform proposals are evidence base, fully costed, effective and | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
proportionate. Mr Deputy Speaker, as I've indicated, the intention behind | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
these amendments is laudable but is in relation to amendment 134, we are | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
persuaded the case has been well made to increase the maximum | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
sentence for the more serious stalking and harassment offences. As | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
for other Lords amendments, as responsible governments, we do not | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
want to adopt a scatter-gun approach. Nor can we afford to be | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
free and easy with taxpayers money by incurring substantial new | :40:22. | :40:23. | |
spending commitments without offering any indication as to where | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
the additional resources will come from. In relation to victims in | :40:28. | :40:35. | |
particular, they have got to give evidence in court. What would the | :40:36. | :40:41. | |
government do about strengthening, protecting these witnesses? Very | :40:42. | :40:43. | |
often they are elderly people frightened to go and give witness | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
against the person accuse. We are looking to strengthen their rights, | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
but in a proper, proportionate and appropriate way. Taken at face value | :40:56. | :41:02. | |
the criticisms he levels with regard to provisions for victims of crime, | :41:03. | :41:08. | |
can he tell the House why it is the government have not brought forward | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
amendments in lieu, instead of as asking to disagree with these | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
amendments? This was, after all, something in the Conservative | :41:19. | :41:20. | |
manifesto at the last election. How long do we have to wait? As I have | :41:21. | :41:27. | |
said, we do want to look at doing is, we want to do it correctly and | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
proportionately. I want to do the work, and in due course will come | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
forward. We will make sure we are doing it in a proper way, and given | :41:36. | :41:44. | |
this, 24, 96 amendments are premature and confuse, and focus and | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
unnecessary. As such, I argue they should be rejected by this House. | :41:50. | :41:57. | |
Does the House disagree with these amendments? Happy New Year to you | :41:58. | :42:05. | |
and to the Minister. Mr Speaker, we support amendments 24, 96, 100 to | :42:06. | :42:13. | |
142, along with the consequential amendments 159, 302, framed and | :42:14. | :42:20. | |
seven -- 307. We support consequential amendments 305, and | :42:21. | :42:26. | |
are glad to see the government has chosen to accept these. We won not | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
therefore oppose the position on amendment one 34. I would like to | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
take the opportunity to thank those who have worked to bring these | :42:37. | :42:40. | |
issues to our attention, in particular the noble ladies Baroness | :42:41. | :42:44. | |
O'Neill and Baroness Brinton, and let me congratulate my noble friend | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
's, whose determination and outstanding advocacy for the most | :42:50. | :42:55. | |
vulnerable in our society has led to the government accepting our | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
amendments to the stalking code. Each of these issues before is is | :42:59. | :43:04. | |
deserving of a full debate in its own right. But we have a short | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
amount of time and I will deal with each of the amendment in turn. | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
Amendment 24 with consequential amendment 159, insert new clause | :43:15. | :43:19. | |
which requires the government to commission an independent enquiry | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
into the way the police handle complaints relating to allegations | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
of corruption between the police and newspaper organisations. It is | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
commonly known as the leathers and to amendment because it is similar | :43:33. | :43:36. | |
in scope to the proposed second part of the leather is an inquiry -- | :43:37. | :43:42. | |
Levenson. As proposed by Judge Levinson in 2011. This is a proposed | :43:43. | :43:47. | |
examination into, and I quote, whether the police received corrupt | :43:48. | :43:53. | |
payments or were otherwise competent in misconduct and into any failure | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
of the police and others to properly investigate allegations relating to | :44:00. | :44:02. | |
News International and other news organisations. And let us not forget | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
what the former Prime Minister, the right honourable David Cameron, | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
said, and I quote, when I set up this enquiry, I also said there | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
would be a second part to investigate wrongdoing in the press | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
and the police, including the conduct of the first police | :44:21. | :44:21. | |
investigation. The consultation could be seen as a | :44:22. | :44:32. | |
weakening of that commitment. This underlines the need for the clarity | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
that this amendment would provide. Part one of the Leveson Inquiry | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
found unhealthy links between senior Metropolitan Police officers and | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
newspaper executives, links which led to high-level resignations. | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
There are also issues around the relationship between the police and | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
the press at a more local level where prior information appears to | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
be provided about particular people to be arrested or a particular | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
search to be carried out. All of these serious breaches speak to a | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
fundamental need for us as a nation to assess the proper relationship | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
between the police, the press, the public and the system of complaints. | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
The proposed second stage of the Leveson Inquiry would have answered | :45:21. | :45:26. | |
these sorts of questions and Labour has consistently supported it but | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
sadly, real doubts are emerging about the government's commitment to | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
the second stage of this enquiry. No timetable has been announced and the | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
government has stated that it will not take place until all criminal | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
investigations and trials related to part one are concluded. I will give | :45:46. | :45:55. | |
way. Isn't the government's position sensible? There have been a | :45:56. | :45:57. | |
succession of criminal trials looking at this matter and those | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
have gone through in a proper judicial way, that most of the | :46:03. | :46:05. | |
information we need is already available and that to go on in | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
acquiring and enquiry is merely adding caused to the already ?50 | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
million cost that there has been for the taxpayer? I am really sorry that | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
the honourable gentleman continues to plough this path because as I | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
have said, it was quite clearly the second part of this enquiry was | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
quite clearly in the mind of his Prime Minister when he made the | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
statements, when he made the statements to this House about a | :46:32. | :46:41. | |
part too. If we cannot accept the words of his Prime Minister, his | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
Prime Minister, a guarantee by his Prime Minister. Oh really. I have | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
let him put his concern on the record. The Prime Minister is to the | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
sovereign and not to me. I have heard some specious arguments in | :47:01. | :47:07. | |
this place... Anyway. Mr Speaker, the amendment before us today, I | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
hope is acceptable to the benches opposite and the Minister, because | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
is explicit that the enquiry should not begin until the Attorney General | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
determines that the enquiry would not be prejudicial to any ongoing | :47:22. | :47:28. | |
criminal investigation -- investigations are core cases. To | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
oppose this amendment is tantamount to admitting that the government is | :47:32. | :47:36. | |
no longer committed to an investigation into corruption | :47:37. | :47:39. | |
between news organisations and the police and that they are not | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
prepared to investigate how allegations of corruption are dealt | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
with. If the government block amendment 24 today, the public | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
really can have no option but to draw the conclusion that this | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
government has no commitment to ask in the important and hard questions | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
of our national institutions. I now turn to amendment 96 with | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
consequential amendment 302 proposed in the other place. The purpose of | :48:08. | :48:16. | |
this amendment is to establish the principle of parity of legal funding | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
for bereaved families at inquest involving the police. Many | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
honourable members and friends have championed this caused during the | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
passage of this bill and elsewhere and I pay particular tribute to the | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
tireless campaigning and a personal commitment of my right honourable | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
friend, the member for relief. An equal funding at inquest and the | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
associated injustices are highlighted by the sorrow saga of | :48:43. | :48:45. | |
the Hillsborough hearings, the scales of justice were weighted | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
against the families of those who had lost their lives. Public money | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
was not used to discover the truth, but instead to defend an untenable | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
narrative perpetuated by the South Yorkshire Police. The coroner, | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
dealing with the first pre-inquest hearings into the 21 victims of the | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
1974 Birmingham pub bombings backed applications for their bereaved | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
families to get legal funding for proper representation. He commended | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
their application but he did not have the power to authorise the | :49:20. | :49:25. | |
funds. These are major cases which have attracted considerable public | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
interest. But inquest in which the police are legally represented are | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
not confined to major tragedies such as Hillsborough. Far more common are | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
inquest into the deaths of individuals who are little known. | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
Many bereaved families can find themselves in and add the soil and | :49:45. | :49:54. | |
aggressive environment when they go to in inquest, many are not in a | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
position to match the spending of the police or other parts of the | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
public sector when it comes to their own legal representation. If -- | :50:01. | :50:02. | |
bereaved families have to try if at all possible to find their own money | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
to have any sort of legal representation. We on the opposition | :50:08. | :50:11. | |
benches believe that the overwhelming public interest at | :50:12. | :50:16. | |
these inquests lies in discovering the truth. It follows public money | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
should be there to establish the truth and not just protect public | :50:23. | :50:26. | |
institutions and that must mean equal funding. In the Other Place, | :50:27. | :50:32. | |
the government accepted that many would sympathise with the attention | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
of this amendment, the former Home Secretary has commissioned the | :50:38. | :50:40. | |
former Bishop of Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, to rip compile a report | :50:41. | :50:45. | |
on the experiences of the Hillsborough families and we are | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
encouraged to wait for his report before considering the issues | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
further. But we already know that a system of unequal funding at inquest | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
is wrong, public funds are being denied and are being used to deny | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
justice and hide the truth. The government needs to act now to | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
change a process that appears to be geared more towards trying to grind | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
down breed families than enabling them to get out the truth. The | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
government should really accept this amendment today. She makes a very | :51:20. | :51:22. | |
strong point and I urge the government front bench to listen | :51:23. | :51:26. | |
closely to the point the honourable lady is making. It is too often the | :51:27. | :51:30. | |
case that people who die while in the care of the state and in a | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
detained environment go up against the might of the state and that is | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
simply not fair and it shouldn't be tolerated. I am really grateful to | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
the honourable member for that point. Mr Speaker, we also support | :51:43. | :51:51. | |
amendment one 36-142, proposed in the Other Place by Baroness Brinton. | :51:52. | :51:58. | |
These amendments are designed to improve the way that the criminal | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
justice system interacts with the victims of crime and they are based | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
on the work of my honourable friend, the member for Holborn and Saint | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
pancreas. I presume that these amendments will be acceptable to the | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
benches opposite, because as we have heard, they had the effect of | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
enacting the 2015 Conservative manifesto commitment to introduce a | :52:21. | :52:27. | |
victims bill of rights. Let me remind my honourable friend, the | :52:28. | :52:30. | |
minister, and quote to him the manifesto. It says, we will | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
strengthen victims rights further with a new victims law that will | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
enshrine key rights for victims. I understand that the minister, the | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
member for Hemel Hempstead, has already committed to a Green paper | :52:46. | :52:52. | |
on this issue, in a private meeting with the campaign group, voice for | :52:53. | :52:56. | |
victims last year, but we have yet to see sight of it. The legislation | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
before us is the ideal opportunity for them to take the matter forward, | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
so I encourage the government, even at this late stage, to think again | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
and not oppose this amendment today. Mr Speaker, the House will know that | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
victims rights are currently protected in the victims code which | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
was introduced in 2005 by a Labour government and which we still | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
support. However, the right included in this code are not legally binding | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
and in the last few years, it has become clear that a firmer legal | :53:30. | :53:36. | |
basis is required to give distressed and vulnerable victims the | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
protection that they need. Can the honourable member giveaway? Thank | :53:42. | :53:44. | |
you. I wonder would she agree with me that the European directive on | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
victims rights of 2012, if that was put on a statutory footing in | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
England and Wales it would be following the lead that happens in | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
Scotland already? She is absolutely right. I think that talking about | :53:57. | :54:02. | |
Europe might be too much of a red flag in this chamber today! | :54:03. | :54:08. | |
Moreover, if we passed these amendments today, they would create | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
a statutory duty on selected police leadership to produce an area 's | :54:13. | :54:18. | |
victims plan, depending on local needs and would require the | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
commissioner for victims and witnesses to assess the ankle -- | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
adequacy of these plans and finally they would empower the Secretary of | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
State to order a homicide review and that is basically a cold case review | :54:29. | :54:36. | |
when nobody has been charged with a crime. Taken together, these | :54:37. | :54:38. | |
measures would allow the victims code to be better in forced and to | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
ensure that our criminal justice system works better for the victims | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
of crime and that the government will, I hope, offer their | :54:48. | :54:49. | |
wholehearted support to these amendments. And finally, I turned to | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
amendment 134 with consequential amendment 305 proposed by my noble | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
friend Aaron Harris Royale, which increases the maximum penalty for | :55:02. | :55:05. | |
those found guilty of stalking from 5-10 years and in cases where the | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
offence is racially or religiously aggravated, between 7-14. We are | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
delighted that the government has chosen to accept our case and I | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
congratulate my noble friend, who has pursued this campaign. Home | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
Office data suggest that as many as one in five women and one in ten men | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
will be stalked at some point in their lives, but just because | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
stalking is common, it doesn't mean it is not a serious matter. It | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
destroys lives, it violates an individual's right to privacy and | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
therefore destroys their personal freedoms. It causes fear and rightly | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
so, since too often it is a precursor to violent confrontation. | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
I know that sentencing guidelines and specific sentences are the | :55:53. | :55:56. | |
responsibility of the sentencing council, and the judges | :55:57. | :55:59. | |
respectively, but extending the maximum penalty will allow for | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
greater flexibility in the most serious cases and make it clear that | :56:03. | :56:07. | |
stalking is a serious offence. It is the Labour Party which has provided | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
the government with the opportunity to give judges the necessary | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
flexibility to hand out appropriate sentences to what our serious | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
criminals. I am delighted that the government has seen this need and | :56:22. | :56:31. | |
responded so appropriately. I rise to support the government's | :56:32. | :56:37. | |
amendment on stalking. This is a momentous day, because these | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
proposed measures which would have the effect of significantly | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
strengthening protections for victims of stalking represent the | :56:45. | :56:47. | |
culmination of a 16 month campaign. What began with a meeting with my GP | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
constituent in 2015, I truly hope ends here today. Because in doubling | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
the maximum sentences for stalking, the government's proposals | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
emphatically and decidedly do two things. First, they recognise that | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
stalking is not a minor offence, instead it is a horrible, violating, | :57:07. | :57:11. | |
destructive tribe that rips apart relationships, ruins careers and can | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
cause lasting mental harm and all too often it is the gateway to | :57:15. | :57:19. | |
serious violence. Second, the government's amendments ensure that | :57:20. | :57:22. | |
the courts will have the tools they need to do with the most serious | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
cases, accordingly. Most crucially of all, it will give them powers to | :57:27. | :57:36. | |
truly protect victims and put their needs front and centre in a criminal | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
justice system. Let me be clear, one we are talking about stalking | :57:40. | :57:41. | |
victims, we are not simply referring to the rich and famous, instead but | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
this campaign has made crystal clear, it is ordinary men and women | :57:45. | :57:46. | |
who can fall victim just as readily and just as severely as those in the | :57:47. | :57:53. | |
public eye. The context... Before the honourable gentleman continues, | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
can I say, I want to mention the work he has done on this and I want | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
to congratulate him for it. Very gracious and I am grateful for it. | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
The context briefly for these proposals was the horrific | :58:07. | :58:08. | |
seven-year ordeal suffered by my constituent at the hands of her | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
former patient and I will not go through all the detail now, but some | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
of the details. He turned up at her surgery over 100 times, he posted | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
fowl items through the letterbox and followed her on patient visits, | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
slashed tyres and sent threatening male, appeared at a children's | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
birthday party attended by her daughter and caused anxiety and fear | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
and after serving a short prison sentence, he restarted his campaign. | :58:34. | :58:39. | |
She received packages at her surgery and at home, one was threatening and | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
abusive and made sure that she knew that he knew what school and her | :58:47. | :58:53. | |
children attended. A search on his computer revealed a search for how | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
long after a person dispirit issue presumed dead? | :58:58. | :59:05. | |
The judge went on to say, I'm frustrated the maximum sentence as | :59:06. | :59:12. | |
five years, I would if I could give you longer. These proposals mean | :59:13. | :59:15. | |
instead of the maximum sentence being lower than the shoplifting, | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
the maximum would be put on a par with another of setting crime, | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
burglary. It means we no longer have the completely unsatisfactory | :59:26. | :59:27. | |
situation where the maximum a stalker could serve in prison on | :59:28. | :59:32. | |
entering a guilty plea, even for the worse manageable offence, is just 20 | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
months. I should make clear what it is not about. It is not about saying | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
all stalking cases should suddenly lead to longer sentences, that is | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
for the courts. It is about ensuring in the most serious cases where | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
victims are truly at risk of serious harm, physical or mental, that the | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
court have the tools they need to protect the innocent. Nor is it | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
about throwing away the key and giving up on offenders. I and others | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
want to see prison sentences which reform the offender and address and | :00:06. | :00:10. | |
aligning obsession in an effective way. The reality is in fact that | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
longer sentences in appropriate cases can provide the prison system | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
were a great opportunity to rehabilitate and trade. In closing I | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
want to thank those parliamentarians from all sides, including the | :00:22. | :00:27. | |
Baroness who back these measures. And in both... In this place and in | :00:28. | :00:33. | |
their support for the detailed report I co-authored with my | :00:34. | :00:39. | |
honourable friend, the MP for Gloucester. I want to page should be | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
to this government. I am proud that more has been done by this | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
government since 2015 and in Coalition to recognise the | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
seriousness of this type of offending. In just a decade stalking | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
has gone from being treated as almost a joke to be recognised the | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
serious offence it is. This step today builds on vital work that has | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
gone before, from creating the offence in 2012 to enacting stalking | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
protection orders. And it can be seen in the context of other vital | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
measures relevant to this subject, not least Clare's Law. Can I just | :01:15. | :01:25. | |
enlighten him, he wasn't in the House when the stalking bill was | :01:26. | :01:29. | |
introduced by a Labour government as a result of a private members bill | :01:30. | :01:33. | |
against a lot of opposition by his party at the time. I am very sure, | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
but it was a Coalition, Conservative led government that made it get on. | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
In the spirit of being entirely conservatory, I do recognise a lot | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
of people have made 11. Can close by saying I'm grateful to the victims, | :01:52. | :01:58. | |
typically but not exclusively women, I have spoken to many charities. | :01:59. | :02:08. | |
But above all, and finally, I want to page should be to my concert and | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
Doctor Aston. It was her ordeal which triggered -- triggered this -- | :02:15. | :02:21. | |
paid tribute to my constituent Doctor Aston. Her greatest wish, I | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
know, is that future victims can receive the full measure of justice. | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
If these proposals are carried out that would be precisely the result. | :02:32. | :02:35. | |
I commend the amendments to the House. I had not intended to come | :02:36. | :02:45. | |
along today, and it is a pleasure to follow the honourable member from | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
Cheltenham, who rightly speaks of real progress being made in the | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
stalking Bill, and that actually there is no need to have some sort | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
of pimping over Houston more overt domestic violence, sexual violence | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
and stalking, because we should be trying to do everything we can. I | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
don't care who does it, as long as it gets done. The issue I think the | :03:10. | :03:22. | |
build today, it will mean nothing if in practice legislation is not | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
realised and I'm afraid to say that as somebody who has worked on the | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
front line, so after that we make brilliant rules in this place | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
beautiful, fancy written rules on all the fancy goat skins, and means | :03:37. | :03:45. | |
absolutely nothing to people living in the places. Because of resources, | :03:46. | :03:55. | |
because of issues around is housing. And that is why I want to stand and | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
talk about the victims code and the amendments around the victims Bill | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
that was put forward by my honourable friend from St Pancras | :04:04. | :04:10. | |
and urged the government to consider the amendments and make a more | :04:11. | :04:18. | |
robust framework. The victims code is brilliant, it is... I have no | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
doubt everyone here is committed to making things better for victims. I | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
don't sign up to the idea you are baddies and we are goodies, we all | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
come here because we want to make something better. At the moment, as | :04:33. | :04:36. | |
somebody who was the victims champing at the Birmingham and at a | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
huge piece of work on victims, and victims code, with the government's | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
commissioner, what I found is that if you could find the victim that | :04:47. | :04:50. | |
knew what the victims code was, I will give you some cash now. Because | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
people don't realise they've got this many days you ask for this, | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
people don't realise they have that many, that they can have a | :05:00. | :05:04. | |
statement. Only 30% of people remembered being asked for one. If I | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
ask members here to think back to the day the murderer of our friend | :05:09. | :05:15. | |
and colleague Jo Cox was sentenced, the thing we don't remember from | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
that day is that man. The thing we remember is Brendan Cox standing and | :05:22. | :05:24. | |
making the victims statement outside the court, that he had made inside | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
the court, because he knew he had the rights to do it. That is rare, | :05:29. | :05:35. | |
but it was so powerful in that case. It is imperative that we look at the | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
amendments around the Victim's Law and see how we can strengthen them | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
because I am telling you now, from my experience, not you, Mr Speaker, | :05:45. | :05:53. | |
I am telling all that people, the victims code is a hope as far as | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
people are concerned. And the amendments that have been put down | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
today, the opposition amendments, would definitely make it stronger | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
and definitely the victims of stalking, definitely for victims of | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
sexual violence. So I would ask the government to think again. I also | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
just want to make a quick point about the amendments around is | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
inequality of arms in cases where the state is an actor in, I stand | :06:24. | :06:30. | |
and speak with a victims of the Birmingham pub bombings who are not | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
just my constituents, they are my friends. Their plight at the moment, | :06:36. | :06:45. | |
we have a matter of weeks to answer their plight. Currently the coroner, | :06:46. | :06:51. | |
the chief coroner agrees with them they have not been provided with an | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
equality of arms, so an adjournment has taken place before their inquest | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
can be reopened, and we have until February to right that wrong, and at | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
the moment I see nothing that is telling me that is going to change. | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
And I would ask the government again to look at these amendments and | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
think, how would you feel if it was the constituencies, the families in | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
your constituency? As the families of the Hillsborough... With regard | :07:23. | :07:30. | |
to the Birmingham situation I would consider, I'm happy to have a | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
conservation outside. I think she's not understood what has happened. I | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
will give her more information. I am only too aware the Minister will | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
almost silly tell meet the legal aid has been granted, that legal aid -- | :07:45. | :07:53. | |
almost certainly tell me. Whilst I am more than happy to meet with the | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
Minister out of here, I will wager I know a bit more about it. And | :07:59. | :08:06. | |
perhaps leaders. I would be delighted to be proven wrong -- than | :08:07. | :08:15. | |
perhaps he does. I will be delighted and stand on every single platform I | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
can to say how I was wrong and the Minister knew more than me, if | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
that's what he has to tell me. I will look forward to that. I will | :08:23. | :08:31. | |
conclude by saying that I think we will want something better, we all | :08:32. | :08:36. | |
want victims be treated better, and the honourable member from | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
Cheltenham has shown with passion how that can be realise, but what we | :08:42. | :08:46. | |
do in this place, unless we make sure our regulations are enacted, | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
you know, it is slightly from nothing. So I would ask them to look | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
again at the amendments around victims rights. Mr Speaker, in the | :08:55. | :09:05. | |
last parliament I was politically incontinent, voting against the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
government, and I tried to make sure in this Parliament I was only in one | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
lobby and that was a government lobby. I've managed, I've managed | :09:13. | :09:19. | |
that. For the past 18 months, and I've just so disappointed on this | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
occasion the government isn't willing to accept amendment 96 | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
because quality of representation is critical. I spoken in this place in | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
previous comments about the terrible tragedy of deaths in custody, deaths | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
in detained environments. Let us look at specifically deaths whilst | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
in police custody. If a person dies whilst in police custody, there is a | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
coroner's enquiry, and you have a total inequality of representation | :09:51. | :09:53. | |
at that enquiry, you have a family of the deceased up against the | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
state, the police and legal representation. That legal | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
representation is given to the police without question, it is | :10:03. | :10:05. | |
funded without question, where the families of the deceased, at a time | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
of huge emotional turmoil, have their finances poured through with a | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
fine tooth comb. Not just the finances are parents, but those of | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
siblings, the finances of uncles and even cousins, to see if the family | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
can bear the cost of the legal representation. That is entirely | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
unfair, it is not just, and I do think the Lords amendment is very | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
sensible in its scope, and I would hope even at this late stage, if no | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
other reason to keep me out of a lobby I don't really want to be in, | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
the government might consider accepting this Lords amendment so we | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
can all finished the evening on a very happy and unified note. Thank | :10:53. | :10:57. | |
you very much, Mr Speaker. I don't think it'll be a unified note by the | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
end of the date, and there was an element of irony in his contribution | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
there. I want to pay tribute to the November chanter men for -- | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
honourable member for Cheltenham. The legislation has changed since | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
1997. It is Gerdes this is now recognise for the terrible harm it | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
is done to many victims. I want to talk about, because this is a | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
smorgasbord debate, I went to go back to the Levenson issues and to | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
amendment number 24. Which I wish wasn't necessary. It is only | :11:35. | :11:40. | |
necessary, it has only been put on the order paper because their | :11:41. | :11:46. | |
lordships and a large number of us are distrustful of the government 's | :11:47. | :11:50. | |
intention in relation to what happened over Levenson. The truth | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
is, I believe it is necessary to have the full Levenson, that is on | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
two levels of enquiries, it is a one enquiry, some of which could be done | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
before the criminal investigations were completed and some of which | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
which could not be done until they were completed. That was always the | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
promise, it was never, we will think about having two before the criminal | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
investigation, it was always from the very beginning, there will be | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
one enquiry with two parts and the second part will happen. In fact, | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
the Prime Minister in the quotes given by my right honourable friend | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the West Ham earlier, he said those words, the day after Levenson one | :12:37. | :12:41. | |
had been produced. So there is no excuse for ministers to turn around | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
now and say, no, we never intended to proceed with it, and why does it | :12:47. | :12:52. | |
matter, why is it important? The truth is we are talking about | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
corruption in one of the organisations of the state that | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
matters most to our constituents and to the rule of law in this country. | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
The police. There was a time, I'm sure the vast majority of us agree, | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
from the little bit of pieces we've managed to glean from number one, | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
that the Metropolitan Police to all intents and purposes was a partially | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
owned subsidiary of News International. Members of staff from | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
the Metropolitan Police went to work when News International and when | :13:25. | :13:27. | |
they had finished there, they went back to work for the Metropolitan | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
Police, there was a revolving door. On the very day that the police | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
decided not to continue with the investigation into what had happened | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
at the News of the World 's, the leading investigator was having | :13:44. | :13:46. | |
dinner with Rebekah Brooks. Now, we don't know all the facts the cars | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
Lord Justice Levenson quite rightly said, I cannot investigate all these | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
elements of the corruption in the Metropolitan Police, and what went | :13:59. | :14:01. | |
on at the News of the World until such time as could not | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
investigations have completed. They are now complete. I would reiterate, | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
it wasn't just the Prime Minister, David Cameron, who made these | :14:11. | :14:15. | |
promises, it was the then Home Secretary, who repeatedly, time time | :14:16. | :14:19. | |
said in his house there would be Levenson to, not if it proves | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
necessary, not perhaps there would be lovers and two, there would be | :14:25. | :14:29. | |
Levenson two and it would be proceeded with, as is necessary in | :14:30. | :14:32. | |
according with the law. Now, I would just say to the | :14:33. | :14:49. | |
government who seem, from the way they have conducted themselves, | :14:50. | :14:53. | |
since the new government came in to post, that they need to listen to | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
some of the other members on their own site, like the honourable member | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
from Aldershot and the member for North Herefordshire who have quite | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
rightly made the point that the government is walking itself into a | :15:08. | :15:12. | |
cul-de-sac here. The truth of the batteries, this House and the Other | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
Place agreed legislation, section 40 of the act which has yet to be | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
implemented, this House and the other House agreed nearly | :15:23. | :15:28. | |
unanimously, that we would set up a Royal Charter to put a body in place | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
that was going to decide on the independent regulation of the press. | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
That body, if the Royal Charter is to be withdrawn is going to get a | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
two thirds majority in this house and a two thirds majority in the | :15:43. | :15:45. | |
House of Lords, that is not going to happen, this is a cul-de-sac that | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
the government is walking into unless it chooses to act and act | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
swiftly. Now, I believe that the government should already have | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
implemented section 40 and I would just say that the honourable member | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
for Aldershot is absolutely right when he comments on the wholly | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
exaggerated campaign being run by the press at the moment. It is | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
something very simple, that the victims of press intrusion where | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
promised and the honourable member for North Herefordshire gain is | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
right to say it is not about us, it is not about celebrities, I don't | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
give much of a fig about what happens in relation to them, we put | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
ourselves in the public domain and to some degree we have it coming. | :16:28. | :16:32. | |
However, what really upsets and some others have done it more than | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
others, however, what really upsets me, is the victims of crime when | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
they had their phones hacked, it is a victims of crime, the people of | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
so, why do we originally do our investigation back then? It is | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
because the people of so felt that all of their privacy was invaded, | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
they had no means of saying go away, leave us alone and they were the | :16:59. | :17:01. | |
victims, they were not the perpetrators of crime. What we want | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
is something very very simple, a genuinely independent system of | :17:09. | :17:11. | |
self-regulation and those who say that the new ipso, it is no better. | :17:12. | :17:20. | |
And it is exactly the same as the Press Complaints Commission, it has | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
no more teeth than the previous organisation, it has some of the | :17:24. | :17:27. | |
same staff and virtually the same code of conduct, it is not | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
independent. We want a code of conduct that can be relied upon so | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
that the intrusion into the victims of crime stops. We want a right of | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
apology and the correction that is in a newspaper given the same | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
prominence as the original offending article. I would have thought that | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
it was in the interests of all the press at a really difficult time for | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
them, that there should be a cheap system of rectification. Mr Speaker, | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
the only reason that this amendment is on the order paper is because we | :18:00. | :18:04. | |
want the government to stand by the promises it made and I see the | :18:05. | :18:10. | |
Secretary of State for culture, Olympics, media and sport and I say | :18:11. | :18:13. | |
to her, I hope she is Quetta walkers any further down this cul-de-sac, | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
because it will do the victims of crime Knowles favour. It will look | :18:21. | :18:26. | |
as if should we have simply caved in to a nasty, tawdry little campaign | :18:27. | :18:33. | |
by the press. Sir Peter Bottomley. Can I say that I think that article | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
40 should not be introduced? I think that to say to 90% of the local, | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
regional and national press there will be forced into a grip they do | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
not want to join, is bullying of the worst kind and if that Council of | :18:48. | :18:52. | |
Europe looked at this and saw it, they would say it is interference in | :18:53. | :18:58. | |
the free media. William Holm, who has been described, defied the law | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
over criminal libel and we have to remember that our press basically | :19:05. | :19:08. | |
got their freedom from that moment when ordinary people in this country | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
on juries refused to connect because they said that the media did not | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
have the right to lampoon, be rude or investigate. People ought to ask | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
the question, what with the effect of the article the? Wooded enquiries | :19:22. | :19:24. | |
investigative journalism? It would not. It would be a good idea if | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
those who were backing this idea would give a list of the cases for | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
defamation cases were successful and wrong, including politicians who | :19:37. | :19:41. | |
denied that they were drunk overseas and various other criminals who | :19:42. | :19:44. | |
later turned out to be guilty of the things they were accused by the | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
media. We rely on the media to find the things that few people know | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
about, to make them available... And the whole effect of Article 40 is to | :19:52. | :19:58. | |
chill the opportunity for the media to investigate and report. That is | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
why, I believe that this House would be wrong to force government to | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
bring in Article 40 and a hope we do not and I hope those in favour of it | :20:07. | :20:09. | |
will find other ways of pursuing their own names. He has concluded | :20:10. | :20:21. | |
his speech. Mr Richard Graham. Mr Speaker, thank you for calling me to | :20:22. | :20:28. | |
speak today. And I speak to support the government amendment 24 as | :20:29. | :20:33. | |
strongly as I possibly can do. It recognises the force of the | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
arguments laid out in the report by my honourable friend, the member for | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
Cheltenham in March last year about stalking, the case for extending the | :20:42. | :20:47. | |
maximum sentence. This report summarised work by our researchers, | :20:48. | :20:52. | |
through them we met victims, stalking charities, academics and | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
police specialists and everything we learned confirmed our initial | :20:57. | :21:07. | |
instinct that there are a small number of very dangerous stalkers, | :21:08. | :21:09. | |
like, I am afraid, my constituent, Raymond Knight who pursued Doctor | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
Ellner Aston to the point of nervous breakdown. Mr Speaker, today, | :21:13. | :21:21. | |
therefore, I want to pay tribute to the government. For accepting our | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
report and its single recommendation of doubling the maximum sentence | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
from stalking from five to ten years, amending appropriate sections | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
in the act about religious and racial harassment. And also for | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
outlining in correspondence and additional training that will be | :21:44. | :21:47. | |
part of dealing with the mental health issues of the serious | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
stalkers. I know that the Home Office and the Department of Justice | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
have worked closely on this together and I am grateful to both ministers | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
here today for their actions. I also want to thank Gloucestershire -based | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
Baroness Royale in the Lords for her commitment and contribution. All | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
those who informed us and shared some harrowing experiences, | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
including a constituent and her family and I would like to quote | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
from her 16-year-old daughter, if members would like to hear what she | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
said. 16-year-old daughter of my constituent who was so egregious Lee | :22:28. | :22:32. | |
stalked told us, he, the stalker, broke into my house one night, all | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
the knives in the nice standard were gone, I was sure, she said, I was | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
going to die. In this particular case, my constituent and her family | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
preferred to remain anonymous, not least because my constituent has | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
been moved by the police to a safe house, far from her home and her own | :22:52. | :22:59. | |
children. For all those who informed us, educated us and motivated us, I | :23:00. | :23:06. | |
am extremely grateful. Mr Speaker, the work that I have had with my | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
neighbour, the MP for Cheltenham, I suspect means that the neighbouring | :23:12. | :23:16. | |
constituencies of Cheltenham and Gloucester have not worked so | :23:17. | :23:19. | |
closely since the creation of the Cheltenham and Gloucester building | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
society, now, alas, long since gone. It is on a good cause that we come | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
together in supporting the government's change of law today. | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
The amendment, amendment 24 means that judges will have the | :23:35. | :23:39. | |
flexibility they need, victims will, as Dr Eleanor Aston said will be | :23:40. | :23:41. | |
able to sleep more easily with the worst stalkers are sentence and the | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
stalkers understand better, on the one hand the seriousness of their | :23:46. | :23:49. | |
crime, and on the other, receive more help in resolving what is a | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
severe obsession and mental health issue. Of course, this is not, as | :23:55. | :23:58. | |
the member for Birmingham Yardley pointed out, this is not in itself | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
going to stop stalking. But it shows that victims and judges are heard, | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
and MPs and ultimately the government listens and that laws can | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
be changed, so that sentences better reflect what a particular crime can | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
inflict on innocent victims, most of whom, and particularly in the | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
instance that inspired my neighbour and I, are women. Ultimately, | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
justice is only as good as the laws that we adapt and how these and | :24:28. | :24:32. | |
fermented. And Mr Speaker, in this context, can I pay tribute also to | :24:33. | :24:37. | |
the Prime Minister, who made stalking a crime on the statue of | :24:38. | :24:41. | |
big when she was Home Secretary and to the current Home Secretary who | :24:42. | :24:44. | |
introduced protection orders against stalkers. Let me finish by coming | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
back to where this campaign started. The judge and the victim in | :24:52. | :24:57. | |
Gloucester Crown Court. Thank you to Dr Eleanor Aston for inspiring us, | :24:58. | :25:02. | |
being strong and for having faith, two other victims, for opening their | :25:03. | :25:05. | |
hearts and sharing their stories, to the stalking charities and to the | :25:06. | :25:21. | |
trust which is a leader in this sad area. This part of the journey for | :25:22. | :25:28. | |
justice for victims of stalking is now close to over. Even if the | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
member for Birmingham Yardley has reminded us that there will always | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
be other issues to be raised and resolved, but today's amendment, | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
however, deserves all of our support. Thank you. Sir Gerald | :25:43. | :25:50. | |
Howarth. Thank you for calling me and if I may say, I think the whole | :25:51. | :25:55. | |
House has listened with great respect to my honourable friend from | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
Cheltenham and my honourable friend from Gloucester, for bringing to the | :26:02. | :26:05. | |
attention of the whole House and the country, the appalling consequences | :26:06. | :26:09. | |
of stalking and I joined others in saluting the efforts that they have | :26:10. | :26:13. | |
made in persuading the government to recognise the gravity of this crime | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
and reaching this result tonight, which we can all applaud. I thank | :26:19. | :26:23. | |
the honourable member for pointing out my contribution and earlier | :26:24. | :26:30. | |
intervention to the Minister about section 40 and Amendment 24. I am | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
not going to vote for Amendment 24 tonight, because the government has | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
agreed to have a consultation process and I think it is right that | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
that consultation process should run and as I said to the minister | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
earlier, I do hope the government will not be intimidated by what was | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
called, the campaign by the newspapers, who seemed to me to be | :26:56. | :27:00. | |
struck by an extraordinary sense of paranoia and a feeling of | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
vulnerability, when we all know, from the many cases that have | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
appeared, that they are the ones who really are in the driving seat and | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
they have power without a lot of responsibility. And therefore, I | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
think that after having gone through all the Levenson report and enquiry | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
and the subsequent report and not paying attention to that very | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
detailed and considered piece of work, that we should follow what the | :27:29. | :27:35. | |
Prime Minister then, David Cameron, said that Parliament should do. | :27:36. | :27:39. | |
Since the Aldershot news were unwilling to publish my article | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
from, today, perhaps I could give the has the benefit of the article | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
which will no longer appear in the paper. Since it is my honourable and | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
learned friend suggest, I put it in the lobby, but I think he might be | :27:55. | :27:59. | |
better informed, if not wiser, if I do it. He is a great man, anyway! | :28:00. | :28:14. | |
LAUGHTER. What I said is this, I believe in a free press, but I'll is | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
a believer in a responsible press and sadly the newspapers are | :28:18. | :28:20. | |
becoming increasingly paranoid about what they see as an attack on them | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
and refusing to accept the recommendation of the latest enquiry | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
under Lord Justice Leveson that an independent regulator be | :28:29. | :28:30. | |
established. That was set up after an appalling series of intrusions | :28:31. | :28:33. | |
into the private lives of people which included phone hacking on an | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
industrial scale. The Dowler's body was found 200 yards from the | :28:39. | :28:44. | |
boundary of my constituency and back case really did strike at the heart | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
-- Millie Dowler. Phone hacking is brought up again and again by | :28:50. | :28:53. | |
colleagues in this house, who want to make sense of the press in my | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
view. Phone hacking is a criminal offence and people have gone to jail | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
for it. There is no need for any further laws. | :29:03. | :29:09. | |
The fact is the inquiry would not have taken place if it wasn't for | :29:10. | :29:17. | |
the fact phone hacking was discovered as an industrial scale. | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
They were engaging in it, it was immoral, some went to prison | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
following legal action. I think it is hard for those who have not | :29:28. | :29:35. | |
experienced an assault by the media to appreciate the level of distress | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
it causes. I know because some 30 years ago, together with my then | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
colleague Neil Hamilton, I had to see the BBC panorama programme for | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
libel, which we weren't and had a director-general of the BBC fired, | :29:50. | :29:57. | |
but at the risk of bankruptcy and my seat in this place. If we had lost | :29:58. | :30:04. | |
the case. And for the record, our costs were something like ?273,000, | :30:05. | :30:12. | |
so I say to my right on boyfriend of Worthing -- right honourable friend. | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
It is all well for those who have money, they can access justice, but | :30:17. | :30:24. | |
this is all about providing remedy for those who do not have money and | :30:25. | :30:32. | |
cannot afford to undertake that sort of action. Since 1945 there have | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
been no less than five Royal commissions and enquiries to secure | :30:38. | :30:40. | |
a better and cheaper form of justice for those maligned by powerful media | :30:41. | :30:48. | |
barons. It is worth bearing in mind my legal costs, when it came too | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
soon the Metropolitan Police to try and make sure they gave me | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
information about what happened to me, was framed and ?83,000. My legal | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
costs in relation to suing Rupert Murdoch -- 380 ?3000. I didn't pay | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
anything. Those arrangements of no-win, no fee and no longer | :31:10. | :31:15. | |
available in these cases. He makes... | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
Time and again the reporter threatened new laws of the industry | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
failed to sort itself out, the industry failed. In his 1983 report, | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
it was said it is not an effective regulator of the press, it is set by | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
the industry, financed by the industry, dominated by it and | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
operating in a code of practice devised by the industry, which is | :31:43. | :31:48. | |
over federal to wait. In 2012, Leveson recommended newspapers | :31:49. | :31:50. | |
should be self regulated and the government should have no power over | :31:51. | :31:54. | |
what they publish. He oversaw propose a new press standards body | :31:55. | :31:59. | |
created by the industry. The new self regulated body should be | :32:00. | :32:02. | |
underpinned by a law to recognise the new body and ensure it meets | :32:03. | :32:08. | |
certain requirements, to also enshrined a legal duty to protect | :32:09. | :32:13. | |
the freedom of the press. And, I quote, to provide a fair, quick and | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
inexpensive service to deal with any complaints about its publications. | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
So, here we have it, there is a proposal on the table which it so is | :32:28. | :32:38. | |
perfectly at liberty to take up. But they should not be dominated by | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
former press people, and that is exactly what it is all about. I am | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
not advocating it, but I see no reason why they should organise | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
themselves in a way in which they are compliant. Instead they set of | :32:55. | :32:58. | |
body dominated by former editors, which does not beat the Leveson | :32:59. | :33:05. | |
conditions. In a moment. The government is right to consult, but | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
I do not believe the newspapers have anything to fear from these | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
proposals, I believe that they will be in the interest of the press, | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
above all they will provide a remedy for those who cannot afford to seek | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
a remedy to date, and surely the responsibility of the sows is to | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
remedy injustice. And before I sit down and give way... He knows how | :33:31. | :33:37. | |
much I return his respect. And how much normally I would regard him as | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
an infallible guide to almost everything on the planet, but in | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
this case to suggest ipso is dominated by editors, and an | :33:47. | :33:57. | |
independent judge, is over emphasising the point. I'm grateful | :33:58. | :34:03. | |
for his belief in my infallibility and I can ensure him he won't be | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
misguided on this one, for I am infallible on this one as well. To | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
make my point is, in answer to his, it may be that as a judge in the | :34:14. | :34:19. | |
driving seat, but it is dominated, the majority are press and former | :34:20. | :34:26. | |
press people. It is true that seven of the 12 former press people. And | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
this does not need the Leveson conditions. If they need them, we | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
will all be happy. It is a pleasure to be called, | :34:37. | :34:47. | |
physically following some of the passionate contributions we've had. | :34:48. | :34:54. | |
Whilst my focus will be on amendments 136142, having had the | :34:55. | :34:56. | |
comments we've already had about matters relating to the press, my | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
thoughts are drawn to the fact we've heard about the Aldershot News. In | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
Torbay is to read thousands of homes receive a publication which talks | :35:08. | :35:10. | |
about local news, talks about local issues, gives the odd opinion on | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
them. It is called my weekly e-mail update. Subject only to libel laws, | :35:16. | :35:20. | |
subject to only what I'm happy to talk about and defend as a local | :35:21. | :35:27. | |
member of Parliament. That thing that needs to be borne in mind with | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
the debate we are having. We are now in a different era for the knee | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
jerk, where more and more as moving online -- for the media. There is no | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
such thing as a press regulator for someone who does not have a press, | :35:39. | :35:42. | |
where websites can be based across the world and are difficult to track | :35:43. | :35:45. | |
down and are liable levels, let alone to try and regulate. We have | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
to remember the era when people just walk down the news agent each | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
morning and then each evening to buy a local newspaper have pretty much | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
come to an end. And actually there is a whole Grove, when we talk about | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
fake news stories in relation to local elections, it wasn't | :36:08. | :36:10. | |
newspapers putting them out, it wasn't print media, it was various | :36:11. | :36:16. | |
people online, particularly websites which work as Clerc parade, with | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
misleading headlines which people share, or doesn't get to the centre | :36:20. | :36:27. | |
of it. There has been simmering secluded online that is misleading, | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
if you know the facts, but if you read the headline. Will be affected | :36:31. | :36:37. | |
by press regulation? No, it is nothing to do with press regulation | :36:38. | :36:40. | |
because it is not a printed material. It is why we need to be | :36:41. | :36:46. | |
conscious that the area where merely a print publication could circulate | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
something is disappearing, and what we do in terms of having a special | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
system that puts them at a disadvantage will increasingly make | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
them not as dominant as they were. We will see more local newspapers | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
close, as find themselves being the arbiters of all opinion. Unless | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
people... Most constituents can make the own common sense and a pinch of | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
salt with many of the claims they receive online and in the media, but | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
we have libel laws, and we need to remember that. You see, I've had | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
this argument many times that the libel laws are there and that's all | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
very fine and dandy. But the truth is people of Hillsborough had no | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
opportunity, no legal remedy at all whatsoever to be able to return the | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
lies, not libel is because the people were dead, the lies said | :37:42. | :37:44. | |
about them for many years. That is why we need a proper independent | :37:45. | :37:51. | |
press regulator, which is independent and governed, | :37:52. | :37:53. | |
independent of politics and the proprietors. The reality is if | :37:54. | :38:00. | |
someone wants to spread mistruths they will do it on the Internet, in | :38:01. | :38:04. | |
a similar manner, which would not be covered by Ivor of these proposed | :38:05. | :38:11. | |
systems. This is where we see that type of story circulated. In the | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
1980s, the Internet was something that a few universities used and the | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
world wide web was something the US military had developed in terms of | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
its own communications in the event of World War III. It was not, as we | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
saw today. We need to be conscious of what the position is to date, in | :38:29. | :38:34. | |
terms of how we have legislation, and that we don't set out with an | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
industry which in many cases are struggling to survive and in | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
decline, and actually end up with a situation we throw the baby the bath | :38:44. | :38:51. | |
water. In terms of my main thrust of the comments I wish to make, was in | :38:52. | :38:59. | |
relation to amendments 136 to 142. I have listened to the honourable | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
member for Birmingham, G has a valid point when he says it is easy to put | :39:04. | :39:10. | |
things on a goat skins. They sound marvellous, fantastic but when you | :39:11. | :39:12. | |
look at it on the ground, what different it makes isn't there. I | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
will agree with the government's motion to disagree with the Lord's | :39:18. | :39:22. | |
in amendments. It is the fact that when I look at Lord amendments 137, | :39:23. | :39:31. | |
some of it is relatively vague. What is adequate notice, not defined. | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
Also when we look at making the police and other authorities liable | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
for... There must be unnecessary delay, which, again, how can they be | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
held liable if it is the defence which decides to engage and delay? | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
It is the judiciary have the role to prevent court cases being delayed. | :39:55. | :40:01. | |
The whole point of all of these amendments is that actually in the | :40:02. | :40:06. | |
criminal justice system, all of those actors have a responsibility, | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
whether that is to courts, the CPS, the defence, whether it is the | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
police. The pointers, it would make it more robust about how we would | :40:17. | :40:21. | |
monitor how well they were doing on those things. So it doesn't matter | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
who is to blame, what we want is for the victim to be given the | :40:26. | :40:31. | |
information. Just to be clear, it talks about how they must ensure | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
they are not subject to unnecessary delay, it does not talk about | :40:35. | :40:40. | |
monitoring it. This is putting something onto the face of the | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
statute which says must ensure, it does not say monitor. It would be | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
more about having worked to ensure victims of crime were supported with | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
a court process that would be more beneficial than having this | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
amendment put onto the act, and in addition people now have a Police | :40:59. | :41:01. | |
and Crime Commissioners they can hold to account for the work they | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
do. There are other aspects, and I'm conscious of this has been a | :41:06. | :41:09. | |
grouping of amendments. We could be here this time. I don't believe that | :41:10. | :41:14. | |
putting these on the face of the bill is right way forward, looking | :41:15. | :41:22. | |
in the future at what does not have consequences. I would agree with the | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
government motions to disagree with the Lords and their amendments. I | :41:27. | :41:35. | |
won't delay the House long. I wanted to heap praise on the Secretary of | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
State for not giving in to the pressure of the media moguls and | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
although putting a consultation out, we are determined no grasp shall | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
grow. I wanted to be very clear that we truly appreciate what she's done. | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
For colleagues who are unhappy about amendment 24, they really ought to | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
pay more attention to the brilliance of the right honourable member for | :41:59. | :42:03. | |
West Dorset, who has put together such a fantastic plan for dealing | :42:04. | :42:07. | |
with this thorny issue, that if they gave at their full attention, they | :42:08. | :42:14. | |
would, like me, want to see section 40 implement it. The press | :42:15. | :42:17. | |
recognition panel is independent, and given amendment 24 and the | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
concerns being shown by the lordships, particularly... I would | :42:22. | :42:27. | |
be delighted to give way. I'm sorry to disagree, the recognition panel | :42:28. | :42:34. | |
is not independent, it is the creation under a Royal Charter, | :42:35. | :42:37. | |
ultimately the ground, and therefore the state. It is still independent | :42:38. | :42:46. | |
because it doesn't choose who and what is a regulator, it only | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
determines that the regulator is independent. It is vividly | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
acceptable, and I know -- perfectly acceptable. This whole instrument | :42:57. | :43:04. | |
does exactly that. My honourable friend, the Member for all | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
emphasised the point that local press, physically, will be | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
vulnerable if they are not regulated. As I said, yes, they | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
will. The regulator protects them from having to pay the costs. I | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
think this is why college should really study what the right | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
honourable member for West Dorset put together, it is much, much | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
better than their initial thoughts may be. The claims from the | :43:31. | :43:37. | |
Hillsborough victims fought section, amendment 24th are deeply touching. | :43:38. | :43:43. | |
I wish the way in which that amendment we are discussing was | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
worded was easier to support, because my instincts, and they | :43:47. | :43:54. | |
weren't touched on before, are to support the victims of Hillsborough. | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
The way in which this amendment is not adequate, given the government a | :43:59. | :44:07. | |
month is not good enough. That does not been it and here. And I implore | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
the government to keep on with the good work they are doing to ensure | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
we do protect the freedoms of the press, that we do protect local | :44:16. | :44:22. | |
press and most of all we have that low-cost arbitration system, which | :44:23. | :44:23. | |
ultimately will benefit everybody. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I hadn't | :44:24. | :44:33. | |
intended to take part in this debate and I don't want to say very much. I | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
want to say a word about Lords' amendment 24. A lot of the debate | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
seems to be about whether or not section 40 should be implemented | :44:44. | :44:45. | |
which of course is not actually anything to do with clause 24, which | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
is specifically about whether or not there should be a further inquiry | :44:50. | :44:53. | |
looking at the behaviour and performance of the police in | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
relation to their dealings with news organisations. Now, Leveson 2, as | :44:58. | :45:12. | |
it is now known... And it is recognised that it would be wholly | :45:13. | :45:20. | |
wrong to have any kind of inquiry that might risk or jeopardise | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
criminal prosecutions but of course most of the criminal prosecutions | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
have now been concluded and it is actually worth just looking at the | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
out-Cox those criminal prosecutions, which deciding whether or not there | :45:33. | :45:38. | |
is a case for proceedings. And it is the case, that Operation Elveden, | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
which was the police investigation into corrupt payment from newspaper | :45:43. | :45:46. | |
organisations, overwhelmingly resulted in the acquittal of the | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
journalists who were charged with offences, under Operation Elveden. I | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
think there were only two journalists who were actually | :45:55. | :45:57. | |
convicted. The vast majority were actually acquitted. And that is | :45:58. | :46:02. | |
something which we need to bear in mind and does suggest that perhaps | :46:03. | :46:07. | |
the suggestion that there was this massive corrupt relationship was not | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
actually proven to be the case. Now, the honourable gentleman for Rhondda | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
talks about the importance of weeding out police corruption and | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
how it is important to have confidence in an institution of the | :46:20. | :46:22. | |
state r state and I completely agree with him. I wanted just to refer to | :46:23. | :46:30. | |
the case made by the relatives of Daniel Morgan, as to why there | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
should be a further inquiry. Now I have every sympathy with the family | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
of the Daniel Morgan who was murdered and where there was | :46:40. | :46:41. | |
considerable evidence that there was police corruption and I can be | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
entirelip understand their wish to have the killers of Daniel Morgan | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
brought to justice. Now the Home Office has a panel at the moment, | :46:49. | :46:52. | |
which is examining that and we await the conclusion and it may well be | :46:53. | :46:57. | |
that there needs to be further action taken to deal with police | :46:58. | :47:02. | |
corruption and I await to see what the panel concludes but bear in mind | :47:03. | :47:10. | |
the Leveson Inquiry was about the conducts of the press, not about | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
police corruption. Now, on the main issue which has dominated this | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
debate, the implementation of section 40, it is not covered by | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
that I mendment, I personally very much share the views which have been | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
extremely well-expressed Miyamoto honourable friend the member for | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
worthing and indeed my honourable friend, the member for Torbay but | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
the Secretary of State has set off a consultation. That consultation has | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
concluded today but it'll take some considerable time because I believe | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
there has been a very substantial response to the consultation, so I | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
don't expect the Government to be in a position to announce any | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
conclusion either about whether or not section 40 should be implemented | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
or whether or not there should be any further inquiry until that work | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
has been done, which I suspect is going to take several weeks, if not | :47:55. | :47:59. | |
months and for that reason, it seems to me, entirely premature to have an | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
amendment to rirt Government to commit now to have a further | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
inquiry, bhen we are, they have not even gone assess the results of the | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
consultation. And so, for that reason, I strongly oppose the Lords' | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
amendment today. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I rise to | :48:18. | :48:22. | |
speak to two amendments, first to support the Government's amend | :48:23. | :48:26. | |
inspect lieu of Lords' amendment 134 and I think everyone would agree | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
having heard the hard-hitting accounts by my honourable friend for | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
Cheltenham and Gloucester in their reports on stalking that no-one will | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
be left in any doubt whatsoever, that this amendment should be | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
carried this evening. Next to Lords' amendment 137, and I should say, | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
having represented the police and prosecutorial authorities as | :48:49. | :48:51. | |
barrister but also victims, both as a barrister and Member of | :48:52. | :48:54. | |
Parliament, I hope I can see this from both angles. I'm entirely | :48:55. | :49:01. | |
supportive of the victims' code and victims have generally been | :49:02. | :49:04. | |
empowered since it came into force as a results of steps taken by the | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
last Labour Government and the beefing up under the Coalition | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
Government and the Government of today but my concern with new clause | :49:11. | :49:16. | |
137 is that it'll make the police and prosecutorial authorities | :49:17. | :49:19. | |
responsible and in some cases financially liable, for breaches of | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
the victims' code, even for things they are not directly responsible | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
for. And if we look at new clause 137 (3) A, for instance, the police | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
or the CPS could become responsible to a victim for delays caused not by | :49:37. | :49:41. | |
them but a third party such as a defendant. We if look at 137 (3) B, | :49:42. | :49:51. | |
there could be another party, over whom they have no control, treats a | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
victim with a lack of dignity or respect. I'm afraid that often | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
happens in the courtroom when a defendant gives evidence or even how | :49:59. | :50:02. | |
they instruct their lawyer to persuade their case. But that's a | :50:03. | :50:06. | |
matter for the judge to control, not the prosecutor. Clause 137 (10) is | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
more concerning because it would require the Home Secretary to take | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
steps to ensure victims of crime have access to financial | :50:15. | :50:19. | |
compensation from public funds, for any detriment arising from the | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
criminal case concerned. Not necessarily a detriment caused by | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
the prosecuting authority. No requirement of bad faith or | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
recklessness or negligence on behalf of that authority. This is a very | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
big step, both in principle and practice. A big step in principle | :50:36. | :50:39. | |
because it appears to impose a layability on oner party for the | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
actions of a third party over whom they may have no control and a big | :50:43. | :50:48. | |
step in practice, because it exposes the police and prosecuting | :50:49. | :50:50. | |
authorities to a significant financial burden at a time when we | :50:51. | :50:54. | |
regularly have debates in this house on the need for greater funding for | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
the police and the CPS and paragraph 128 of the explanatory notes to | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
these amendment does explain that there are potentially significant | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
financial burdens attaching. So, in conclusion, whilst I'm an | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
enthusiastic supporter of the victims' code and the need to give | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
victims the very best support, I do not think that imposing a very | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
broadly defined liability and indeed a financial liability, on the police | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
and the CPS, is the right way to go about it, without more thought to | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
further the aims of the code. More thought is needed and I'm pleased | :51:29. | :51:31. | |
that the Government will be bringing forward its own proposal, giving | :51:32. | :51:36. | |
effect to our manifesto commitment for a victims' bill of rights and | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
I'm sure that that work will take into account the excellent work done | :51:41. | :51:45. | |
by the honourable member for Holborn and St Pancras and his Commission | :51:46. | :51:48. | |
and I pay tribute to his work and all the people that were involved in | :51:49. | :51:51. | |
that, including a number of my constituents. | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
THE SPEAKER: Order. The question is that this House disagree wts Lords | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
in their acommendment 24. As many of that opinion say ah. To the contrary | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
no. Shouts. | :52:07. | :52:11. | |
THE SPEAKER:. Division, clear the lobby. | :52:12. | :53:18. | |
The question is that this House disagrees with the ah mendment of | :53:19. | :53:25. | |
the Lord's' 24. As many of that opinion say ah. Contrary no. Tellers | :53:26. | :53:34. | |
for the ayes, Steve brine and Chris. And tellers for the noes (are | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
listed) I remind the House that the motion relates exclusively to | :53:40. | :53:41. | |
England and Wales. A double majority is therefore required. Thank you. | :53:42. | :08:34. | |
The eyes to the right 299, the noes 196. For those representing England | :08:35. | :08:58. | |
and Wales, the ayes were 216, the Lords Amendment 24 to the Policing | :08:59. | :08:59. | |
and Crime Bill 190. -- the noes 190. The ayes 299, of | :09:00. | :09:14. | |
those honourable members representing England and Wales the | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
ayes to the right to hunch and 96, the noes to the left 190 so the ayes | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
have it, the ayes have it. Minister to move to disagree to Lords | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
amendment 96 formerly, the question is this disagrees with the Lords in | :09:32. | :09:37. | |
amendment 90 six. As many say iron. On the contrary noes. Division, | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
clear the lobby. The question is the House disagrees, | :09:42. | :11:15. | |
as many say ayes. On the contrary, noes. Steve Bryan and Chris Heaton | :11:16. | :11:27. | |
Harris for the ayes. I must remind the House that the motion relates | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
exclusively to England and Wales, a double majority is therefore | :11:33. | :11:33. | |
required. | :11:34. | :11:38. |