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Order, order. We will come to points of order if that is what it is, in a | :00:16. | :00:23. | |
moment. Recitation of Bill. Secretary of State for Communities | :00:24. | :00:26. | |
and Local Government. Local Government Finance Bill. Second | :00:27. | :00:33. | |
reading what day? Tomorrow. Thank you. I beg that this House do now | :00:34. | :00:43. | |
sit in Private. The question is that the House and sit in Private? I | :00:44. | :00:54. | |
think the noes have it. The noes have it. The Clerk will now proceed | :00:55. | :01:04. | |
to read the orders of the day. Broadcasting (Radio Multiplex | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
Services) Bill, second reading. I beg to move that the Broadcasting | :01:11. | :01:15. | |
(Radio Multiplex Services) Bill be now read a second time. Mr Speaker, | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
it is a pressured -- a pleasure to bring this bill to the floor of the | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
House today in what I hope will be a constructive, interesting, | :01:28. | :01:29. | |
informative and perhaps even entertaining debate. In starting, | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
can I thank the clerks in the public builds office, my own staff and the | :01:35. | :01:38. | |
radio team at the Department for the, media and sport in putting this | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
bill together. It has to be said that it's somewhat interesting that | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
we are here on Friday the 13th to discuss this. Some people say it's a | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
day that is unlucky for some and I hope it will be a lucky day for this | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
bill given some of the issues we sometimes have on Friday with Bill | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
is managing to make progress. On the course -- in the course of my own | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
remarks, I intend to explain some of the details in the bill and how I | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
think they will bring legislation which will bring benefits not just | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
to listeners of DAV radio but two other creative and media industries | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
as well as giving community radio stations a chance to go digital. | :02:22. | :02:25. | |
Plus a chance to create diversity and media that doesn't currently | :02:26. | :02:29. | |
exist. It's also worth being clear that this bill relates to the whole | :02:30. | :02:34. | |
of the United Kingdom, given that broadcasting is a matter that is not | :02:35. | :02:40. | |
devolved, so slightly disappointing tonight that members who are | :02:41. | :02:46. | |
normally keen to make points about bills which do not relate to | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
Scotland on Friday are not here for a bill which directly does relate to | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
them, particularly parts of rural Scotland which could allow them to | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
develop services which do not currently exist or to give a real | :03:01. | :03:05. | |
community feel. This is a bill for all corners of the United Kingdom, | :03:06. | :03:11. | |
that they could all benefit from. The first point to consider, of | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
course, is whether it is needed at all. I know the honourable member | :03:16. | :03:19. | |
for Bury North who is in his place is one member who regularly and | :03:20. | :03:23. | |
rightly raises this in relation to bills being put forward in this | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
House, actually, what is this about? What will it achieve? What will it | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
do? Passing pieces of legislation is not just for academic debate. What | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
benefit will it bring and why should we look to bring it forward? I | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
suppose the first part to explain this what actually is a multiplex? I | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
expect many people when they saw this on the order paper read it and | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
thought, what is that about? What is a multiplex? As the House of Commons | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
library briefing note handily explained in non-technical jargon, | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
and it's possible to get extremely technical in some of the | :04:00. | :04:06. | |
descriptions, ADA be multiplex can be broadcast on multiple platforms | :04:07. | :04:17. | |
using the same platform. Analogue transmissions are broadcast on | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
individual frequencies and neighbouring transmitters cannot use | :04:21. | :04:23. | |
the same transmitters as each other, so many of us will be able to think | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
of a local radio station that advertises itself as 94 point | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
whatever FM, because I'm analogue it's important you know the | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
frequency. On digital... In a moment I will give way. Whereas digital is | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
broadcast by the name of the station because it is effectively on the | :04:48. | :04:50. | |
same frequency wherever you are. I will happily give way to my | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
honourable friend. Can I thank very much my honourable friend for giving | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
way. Forgive me, but I am not a particularly clever man, so I find | :05:00. | :05:03. | |
it difficult to understand the technical side of this. Could you | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
remind me, is F M part of that analogue or is that digital? I thank | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
the honourable member for his intervention. F M is an analogue | :05:17. | :05:23. | |
intervention and I will go into this more in a bit, as that is where most | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
community stations currently are, whereas DAB, you tune in by the name | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
of the station. You don't search for a frequency, you search for a | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
station name. We could even have a chance for hedgehog DAB community | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
sound if there were more opportunities for digital radio. A | :05:46. | :05:50. | |
local station dedicated to promoting the benefits of the hedgehog as our | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
national animal, I know a matter the honourable member takes very | :05:58. | :06:04. | |
seriously. Many of us would probably listen to digital radio already and | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
think, how does this bill fit in? What is the purpose of this bill in | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
terms of a multiplex on a small scale? At the moment on digital | :06:15. | :06:18. | |
radio, there are three national multiplexes that currently broadcast | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
between ten and 19 stations each. These are probably the most popular | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
stations. I went give them any promotion they really don't need. | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
But they are the ones that you can hear in virtually every part of the | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
United Kingdom and they cover about 97% of the UK population. They can | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
receive one of the three national multiplexes. The latest figures are | :06:41. | :06:54. | |
about 97% of the UK population can receive one of those three national | :06:55. | :07:01. | |
multiplexes. There are then 58 local commercial DAV multiplexes covering | :07:02. | :07:08. | |
county sized areas. Each broadcast commercial radio stations as well as | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
the local BBC radio station for the area and from figures from the House | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
of Commons library, over 90% of the UK population should be covered by | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
one of these, so, for example, in my own area, I can receive BBC radio | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
Devon through the local multiplex and also some of the commercial | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
services that currently operate on DAB. Yet when we read that | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
description, we instantly realise that there is a real gap in what | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
most people recognise as the third layer of radio, namely community | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
radio. We have national radio, regional and then we have the very | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
small-scale community radio stations that many people know and love. | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
Certainly. I am grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
Does he agree with me that when we are talking of these layers of | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
radio, community is the one that we often forget about. We hear the big | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
names in radio but the reach of community radio has such impact? I | :08:11. | :08:18. | |
thank the Member for Brownhills for that interesting and pointed | :08:19. | :08:23. | |
intervention. We could think of community radio that becomes famous | :08:24. | :08:30. | |
across the country, because it does reflect very much the community that | :08:31. | :08:35. | |
is being broadcast. We will see later Aric samples of particular | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
places where there are communities with different language services | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
which would not necessarily appeal across the UK, but in a particular | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
area, it speaks to a need that people want to hear. When we see an | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
explosion in opportunities on the Internet, it seems strange that at | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
the moment we are very restricted in what we can get onto radio and even | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
the bizarre situation where actually we can get far more TV stations are | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
many areas broadcast free to air that we can radio stations. A | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
contrasting situation that most of us will remember 20 or 25 years ago, | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
when we only had the main analogue TV stations, but radio had started | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
to expand. This bill looks to expand that type of choice. You can get | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
more formal things from more community. It will mean something to | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
you but not necessarily appeal to the whole area of a region. As | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
touched on... Thank you, Mr Speaker and my honourable friend for giving | :09:38. | :09:43. | |
way. After his clear explanation of the difference between these | :09:44. | :09:46. | |
different F M and digital and analogue services, would my | :09:47. | :09:51. | |
honourable friend agree that in rural areas like mine, that's where | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
community radio stations can really come into their own because often | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
they can't link into the transmitters and the sparse | :10:00. | :10:05. | |
populations, those areas are where small community radio stations can | :10:06. | :10:08. | |
serve a very important purpose? I thank the honourable member for her | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
intervention and absolutely agree with that. One of the issues at the | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
moment is that a community radio station radio station looking to | :10:18. | :10:19. | |
sever very small community that might be viable fire FM finds the | :10:20. | :10:28. | |
jump to DAB virtually impossible because of the revenue they have do | :10:29. | :10:32. | |
produce. To build the infrastructure, that has to do why | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
devote including nearby city -- by default include a local city in | :10:38. | :10:44. | |
order to make it feasible. This thrust of this bill is to include | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
more areas with the ability to go on to DAB in a practical sense, rather | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
than just the theoretical. In a rural area, you would not be able to | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
generate the type of revenue she would need to in order to support | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
that and therefore you would not be giving a service that many people | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
would like to listen to. I think that intervention... Briefly, then I | :11:12. | :11:15. | |
must make progress. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
Would he agree with me that the plurality of an area is a problem in | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
itself? It's not just about the revenue it needs to generate but | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
also the signal strength that they are allowed. With the topography of | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
a rural area, it can restrict how far they can transmit in the current | :11:36. | :11:36. | |
analogue situation. The intervention, and she's right to | :11:37. | :11:48. | |
point out that geography and topography is going to have a large | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
impact on what people can receive in radio and television signals. One of | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
the points of this Bill is that because it's about targeting the | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
infrastructure that provides radio, it would potentially give options, | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
as I'll touch on later, to provide a service where digital radio doesn't | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
exist currently, or the choice is limited due to the topography of the | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
area. That is a reason why, when you look at how the technology works, | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
that having the current licence system hasn't kept up with it, so | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
therefore needing a different option for stations on a smaller scale. In | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
the same way as the old analog technologies. Originally, there was | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
a small number of analogue stations broadcasting at a time when the | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
technology was extremely expensive. Then as we saw the technology | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
reduced in price, an increasing number of stations were created, | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
including community stations. Now we need to look at creating a | :12:50. | :12:53. | |
legislative process and licensing system that allows that technology | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
that is becoming cheaper in the digital sense, to allow community | :12:58. | :13:04. | |
stations to go on to go onto it. As I've touched on, in terms of | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
interventions already, one of the issues with the current system of | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
multiplexes is that many areas are to a large or it could mean | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
providing almost irrelevant content for each community station to go | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
onto them. For example, a community station that wished to cover Torbay, | :13:24. | :13:28. | |
perfectly reasonable to be done under an FM licence, would end up | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
having to be broadcast over a wider area, making any sponsorship or | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
local discussions, or input for local shows and groups, effectively | :13:40. | :13:44. | |
meaningless to much of the theoretical listening population. | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
That's why this Bill is looking at creating smaller multiplexes that | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
can cover defined areas in the wiki community FM licence can do. Also, | :13:54. | :13:59. | |
the fact that there are such wide areas to be covered means that the | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
cost of access is affected by the large-scale jump that is not | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
necessary for looking to go onto analogue, where community licenses | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
can be sought, forestation that is being operated out of someone was 's | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
bedroom or being operated on the Internet from a small studio. | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
Instead, the jump from that position to being on digital radio can | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
actually see a fee of ?100,000 being charged, for them to have the right | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
to broadcast. Effectively, they have to generate revenue of about ?1 | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
million a year to provide a DAB option in the area or in the local | :14:40. | :14:46. | |
multiplex that currently supplies them. If you think of any other | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
industry, put that really be tolerated? For me, it is this shelf | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
that stifles the natural growth of the business from a bedroom or | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
amateur operation, through to Internet broadcast, then to a | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
small-scale broadcasting operation, then who knows what next? We have | :15:06. | :15:10. | |
seen large companies develop literally from people's bedrooms. | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
You'll recall the story of how Microsoft started off with students | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
drinking Coca-Cola to keep them awake all night and has now ended up | :15:22. | :15:24. | |
as one of the biggest companies in the world. I am grateful to him for | :15:25. | :15:33. | |
giving way. It is all very well in making reference to commercial | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
operations, but could he confirm whether this Bill would allow | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
commercial radio stations to operate, or is it just intended to | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
be non-commercial? I thank him for that intervention. I know he will | :15:49. | :15:54. | |
have read the Bill and he will have seen that one of the subsection | :15:55. | :16:01. | |
states that off, may require small-scale BDO multiplexers to be | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
provided on a non-commercial basis, which is in there. But I think the | :16:06. | :16:13. | |
thrust of my point mostly is that there are few other industries where | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
you have such a shelf if you are trying to rule something, so going | :16:17. | :16:29. | |
from a very small-scale operation to ?1 million a year operation. My | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
intention is that most of this would focus on community radio primarily | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
and be the main focus of both, licensing, though I would emphasise | :16:39. | :16:45. | |
that there would also need to be detailed consultation with the | :16:46. | :16:52. | |
industry about this operation. Fundamentally, we are looking at | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
non-commercial, although when he looks through, he will see that | :16:56. | :17:03. | |
doesn't mean eight non-profitable or charitable organisation. It may be | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
providing an infrastructure that allows digital radio to be | :17:07. | :17:11. | |
broadcast, which may carry stations, but has been telling away to allow | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
digital radio services to be broadcast into an area. Certainly, | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
if the Bill gets its successful second reading today, certainly at | :17:25. | :17:27. | |
committee stage, it will be interesting to explore how we refine | :17:28. | :17:32. | |
the Bill. What I'm clear about is this Bill doesn't put any | :17:33. | :17:38. | |
requirements on existing multiplex operators and neither would it | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
attempt to bypass those licensing regimes. So he wouldn't be able to | :17:43. | :17:46. | |
have multiple small-scale licenses to avoid going through the current | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
off, licensing procedure for those that are clearly commercial | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
operations on a large scale. The reason I use the analogy is that if | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
retailers starting out as market stalls and drawing from that, if we | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
can imagine that the only options we provide for charitable operations | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
would be moving from a market stall to a large department store. He | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
sparked lots of things in my memory, with quite a long career involved in | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
radio, I used to get frustrated when one was trying to bid into systems, | :18:25. | :18:30. | |
particularly the BBC system, very complicated systems, to try and get | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
your ideas on. I used to be very frustrated. This would offer the | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
opportunity to set up your phone outlet and broadcast your own ideas, | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
to give opportunities to many people on different levels. I wonder if he | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
might comment on that. I wanted to get my environmental gardening and | :18:50. | :18:58. | |
countryside ideas and back in the day, I was told no one was | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
interested in those things, and that has been proven quite wrong. I thank | :19:02. | :19:03. | |
her for the intervention, she makes a fantastic point. Sometimes the | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
community radio operation can take a broadcasting risk that a large-scale | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
commercial operation or even the BBC, with its requirements to | :19:13. | :19:20. | |
licence payers, cannot. Earlier this week, we talked about the green | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
investment bank, which was started to deal with the perceived market | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
failure, but no private investors want to take that on and develop | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
some of its actions into a profit-making venture, because they | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
believe the market has changed. It is the same with podcasting. You can | :19:37. | :19:44. | |
have something that may not seem inherited -- inherently profitable, | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
but it can build an individual's abilities and talents that then | :19:49. | :19:51. | |
allows them to move on to broadcasting more generally. In | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
effect, is an incubator for what the future might be popular and | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
successful services. Yet, if we have a position where you can't make that | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
jump, then in essence, what we do is we restrict the options to those who | :20:05. | :20:15. | |
can go on the Internet and find that, but when they go on to their | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
DAB radio, they can't find it, or they have to rely on their FM radio. | :20:22. | :20:30. | |
This Bill looks to fix that issue in terms of the scale of digital | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
broadcasting by allowing the creation and licensing of smaller | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
scale multiplexers that can operate in a local area, giving an | :20:39. | :20:43. | |
opportunity to create the infrastructure for delivering | :20:44. | :20:46. | |
digital radio. We must be clear technology has moved on hugely since | :20:47. | :20:50. | |
the house considered these issues in the past. I may have to do greater | :20:51. | :21:08. | |
interest. I may have to declare an interest. If I remember rightly, and | :21:09. | :21:19. | |
maybe he can clarify this, when he was secretary of state for culture, | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
media and sport, wanted and did announce, if I remember correctly, | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
that he wanted to see the old analogue system called digital | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
sooner rather than later. And I think at that particular type, we | :21:32. | :21:41. | |
were expecting that this would happen very quickly. Could you | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
clarify? Just to be clear, this Bill does not make any move towards | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
turning the whole sector from analog to digital. To be very clear, this | :21:55. | :22:01. | |
does not seek to end the process of seeking community FM licences, that | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
will still be there. This is about creating an option to be able to put | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
community radio onto digital broadcasting systems. There is | :22:12. | :22:15. | |
perhaps a debate at some point in the future, that parliament might | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
look at options to have a fully digital radio broadcasting system. | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
However, as it stands today, that's not what's being discussed. It a | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
debate for future years. With technology moving on, we don't know | :22:31. | :22:33. | |
if we will still have separate broadcasting systems in the future. | :22:34. | :22:39. | |
I suspect many of us use the BBC I'd play radio, where you can turn a | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
dial, select a station and listen to them live broadcast. That doesn't | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
come through a DAB system, it doesn't come through FM or medium | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
wave, it comes through your Internet link. I think there will be a future | :22:57. | :23:04. | |
debate about that, but to be clear, this is not about forcing anyone to | :23:05. | :23:10. | |
go on DAB, or bringing an end to the analogue broadcast system, it is | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
about giving a practical option for community radio to be broadcast on | :23:18. | :23:21. | |
digital. That's what this Bill is about. Although there have been | :23:22. | :23:26. | |
suggestions in the past, the UK might want to move to it. Norway is | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
saying it will be the first country to switch off its analogue radio | :23:30. | :23:34. | |
transmissions. There is some debate and I've been speaking to people in | :23:35. | :23:45. | |
the industry about that. But fundamentally, it's a debate partly | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
for another day, but if we get want, if this House ever did consider | :23:51. | :23:53. | |
ending the analogue broadcast system, we would need to give a | :23:54. | :23:59. | |
practical and affordable solution to community and smaller scale | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
operators to be on digital radio, if we didn't just want to annihilate | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
that whole sector. At the moment, the current system of digital radio | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
would do that we went to a digital solution. It would leave large | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
operators but take out hundreds of community radio stations. This is | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
about giving them an option for digital, it's not about forcing them | :24:22. | :24:26. | |
onto digital. And it's not about forcing existing multiplexers to | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
carry them. They are not affected by this. This does not seek to force | :24:31. | :24:34. | |
them to do anything. It's an option that is timely and might contribute | :24:35. | :24:40. | |
to a future changeover, but isn't intended to. It is to give them an | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
option. In terms of the technology moving on, with the days of | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
large-scale broadcasting equipment be needed to broadcasting reliable | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
radio transmission are long gone. The idea of engineers running around | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
in white coats to fix various bits of equipment is just not what | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
small-scale radio is about any more. Literally, some of these small-scale | :25:05. | :25:09. | |
radio trials, the main broadcast was being run off a laptop and probably, | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
it's theoretically possible to run it off a smartphone. We can see how | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
small-scale broadcasting has become huge on the Internet. YouTube and | :25:20. | :25:27. | |
Facebook are showing a range of changes and showing things people | :25:28. | :25:29. | |
would never see on a broadcast channel. That says to me that more | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
people want to be out there and hear this content and also the following | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
rates you see at times, in terms of things broadcast over the Internet, | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
again, it all points towards community broadcasting and people | :25:46. | :25:47. | |
expressing their own experiences, that really means something to more | :25:48. | :25:54. | |
people than watch certain broadcast television shows. To provide that | :25:55. | :25:57. | |
opportunity on digital radio makes eminent sense. We can see the impact | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
of digital television in terms of opening up a range of choice and | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
opportunities to deliver new community services, and digital | :26:07. | :26:13. | |
radio could be the same, if we give an option to have smaller scale | :26:14. | :26:18. | |
multiplexes. As touched on, we don't know where technology will go next, | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
and it's almost pointless to spend a morning speculating on, will we | :26:23. | :26:29. | |
still have broadcast, will we do it through the Internet? What | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
integration will there be in terms of technologies that might benefit | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
or not benefit? But we do know, what we fundamentally know is that the | :26:40. | :26:45. | |
technology exists to enable effective, community run small-scale | :26:46. | :26:48. | |
digital radio broadcasting, and that's what this Bill seeks to | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
create a licensing structure to allow. | :26:52. | :26:55. | |
Of course, in any technology we may say yes, it exists, but is it | :26:56. | :27:04. | |
practical? A year of work was funded by Ofcom to look at an approach to | :27:05. | :27:11. | |
enable small-scale DAB broadcasting. The work included ten technical | :27:12. | :27:15. | |
field trials in towns and cities across the UK. The three main aims | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
of the trials were to one, test how well the small-scale DAB technology | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
worked. Two, test how well the technology lends itself to several | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
parties coordinating their services through the transmitter. Three, to | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
give the market a chance to learn about small-scale DAB and the | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
potential opportunities it presents. I'm sure some members before coming | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
today will have studied Ofcom's report that was published in 2016 | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
and which concerned that the trials had achieved all three aims. First, | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
that the technology worked and was reliable in terms of transmission. | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
Second, that the ten trial operators gained significant experience with | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
some actually innovating further in how this technology could work. But | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
most importantly, the third aspect of it, is that across the ten areas, | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
70 unique radio services are now being carried, the majority of which | :28:13. | :28:18. | |
are totally new to DAB. This wasn't about seeing existing choices | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
disappear or competition with it, it was about giving a new choice. Thank | :28:23. | :28:30. | |
you for giving way. A QS question as to how much it would cost a | :28:31. | :28:37. | |
community organisation to apply for a license, because that seems to my | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
mind to be something that needs to be taken into account as well. I | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
thank the honourable member for his intervention. In terms of the | :28:46. | :28:50. | |
process to apply, this is mostly focused on the actual infrastructure | :28:51. | :28:54. | |
so it would be possible for a couple of community groups to club together | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
or potentially bore a provider or an organisation to provide a | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
small-scale multiplex to help facilitate the growth and creativity | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
in their area. A university would be a classic example that may provide a | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
small-scale multiplex that would broadcast both the student radio | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
station and give the opportunity to other community-based radio | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
stations. To be clear, the bill also make sure there are protections | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
around those who operate existing multiplexes. This isn't about | :29:24. | :29:27. | |
creating a new competitor for them. It's about creating an opportunity | :29:28. | :29:31. | |
for existing community services to go to digital and I will touch more | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
on that later on in my speech. Only too happy to. Thank you for giving | :29:36. | :29:43. | |
way. Can my honourable friend explain what the status is of the 70 | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
unique radio stations which apparently have sprung up, most of | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
them knew? What would be their status if this bill didn't proceed | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
and what is their status at the moment without this bill? How can | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
they pay for it? I thank the honourable member. At the moment, | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
they operate under a trial basis that Ofcom has created. I think if | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
this bill didn't proceed, they could continue on a trial basis and | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
potentially some indications of no, because it is a trial, but the | :30:20. | :30:26. | |
current system -- if the current system is reinforced by the failure | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
of this bill and the Government does not want to see a smaller scale, at | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
some point those radio broadcasts would need to be brought to an end. | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
My guess is that some might move purely to Internet broadcasting, | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
restricting their audience. Others might seek to switch to a community | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
FM licence, but this would be one of the few examples in this Parliament | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
of us saying, we can see a new technology breeding and coming on | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
and creating new opportunities and creating more diversity in the | :30:56. | :31:00. | |
media. As we have done in previous debates, we sometimes get a | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
misleading picture presented that people only get their news in this | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
country from one source which is patently nonsense when we look at | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
the number of options that are there. But actually to not | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
create this type of opportunity, to create this type of opportunity, to | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
look at when we have seen it offered up as an opportunity to say, no, we | :31:19. | :31:24. | |
would rather you all went back to FM only and the National creators are | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
the only ones who are able to take advantage of this, I think that | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
would be a national -- a negative step and I see the Minister nodding | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
some agreement and I'm sure we will hear that in his own remarks later | :31:40. | :31:42. | |
when we hear the comments on what will be the future for those | :31:43. | :31:47. | |
stations if we did not seek to create a permanent structure of | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
small-scale multiplex licensing. I think it's safe to say the future | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
would be rather grim. In terms of the technology, we know it works, we | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
know the operators who did it successfully and they have created | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
new services. The technology is there. The gap in the licensing is | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
there, the next question is demand. I'll give way. I'm grateful again to | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
my honourable friend. Could he say a few words though on whether the | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
infrastructure is there and if it will be financially viable for some | :32:23. | :32:27. | |
of these community radio stations to move on to the multiplex system? I | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
thank the honourable member for her intervention. The infrastructure | :32:34. | :32:36. | |
currently actually isn't there and that the issue we are looking to | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
create a licence for small-scale multiplex is to allow the creation | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
of that infrastructure. In terms of cost, what we do know is that the | :32:46. | :32:48. | |
existing multiplexes work reasonably existing multiplexes work reasonably | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
well for larger operators that I have touched on, those with a | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
turnover of around ?1 million can find this an option for them. Some | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
would debate whether there is effectively a monopoly in some areas | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
but I am not looking to create that situation, rather an opportunity for | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
small-scale operations. The feedback is very strongly from the market | :33:10. | :33:18. | |
that the opportunity is there, particularly with the notion of | :33:19. | :33:28. | |
shared multiplexes. As we touched on, as I have touched on, this is | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
not about forcing people to do things. It doesn't compel the | :33:32. | :33:35. | |
Minister to provide a service or provide a subsidy. It doesn't compel | :33:36. | :33:44. | |
the BBC to help provide the service. My feeling is there was a strong | :33:45. | :33:48. | |
need to do this for reasons I will set out in a moment and that if we | :33:49. | :33:52. | |
don't do it, in leisure studies terms, we are effectively slugging | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
it out. We have seen new ideas come along and we have seen them | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
flourish, but if we do not give them the opportunity, I would really have | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
to say, why not? I thank my honourable friend and thank you for | :34:09. | :34:13. | |
being so generous to give way. I want to clarify. If the demand is | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
there and as you have said before, people could be utilising this | :34:17. | :34:19. | |
technology, would that not eventually drive the cost down? I | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
thank the honourable member for that point. Indeed, yes. Things are more | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
able to be done, as we have seen with experience in the past, as | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
industries have grown and developed, costs have fallen. I am certainly | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
convinced that in this area we would see the costs for quite | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
significantly. That is if there was one, the ability to do it, too, | :34:43. | :34:47. | |
there would be more multiplexes to work from with huge benefits from | :34:48. | :34:52. | |
this, as you would not have do pay for an area you do not need, and all | :34:53. | :34:59. | |
of the broadcast of element in the past have been that as things | :35:00. | :35:07. | |
develop, things have got cheaper. We can look back 50 years ago and see | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
what happened when we were overly top -- tough and regulatory system | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
of broadcasting onshore. We ended up with people sat on ships just | :35:18. | :35:25. | |
outside of our territorial waters to get... | :35:26. | :36:06. | |
They would be open to possible small commercial stations, they would be | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
able to access that, even though they are commercial station, is that | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
right? My understanding is that yes, they would, though it would have to | :36:19. | :36:27. | |
be very clear. This Bill would set a framework, consultation with the | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
industry and off, considering individual licence applications. | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
Possibly very small-scale operations would be able to take advantage of | :36:37. | :36:39. | |
this, but there would be a process in place to make sure the rights of | :36:40. | :36:43. | |
existing multiplexers were not affected and Julie, and that | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
secondly, one of the considerations would be, if you had an interest in | :36:51. | :36:57. | |
one of those other multiplexers, for example, rules specifically | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
disbanding someone from applying to have a small-scale multiplex, who | :37:02. | :37:06. | |
already had an interest in that local or national multiplex. So yes, | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
it could give opportunity, but this Bill is very much about setting a | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
framework of legislation, with detail to be taken forward. Partly | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
about creating a framework is trying to have an element of flexibility as | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
well, because it will be unique individual circumstances. There are | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
some areas covered by the National Digital radio multiplexers that are | :37:33. | :37:36. | |
not covered by the local ones, so again, we may wish to look at some | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
flexibility there, to allow provision of digital radio. Is about | :37:42. | :37:45. | |
creating a framework, giving opportunity. But there are limits to | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
that framework, so it doesn't undermined the current systems of | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
regulation. But this is a deregulation | :37:54. | :38:04. | |
measure, in terms of providing an opportunity to small-scale digital | :38:05. | :38:07. | |
radio stations that serve communities and that cannot | :38:08. | :38:09. | |
realistically take on the cost of a local area multiplexers covers a | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
wide area, so in terms of looking at the demand for these services, we | :38:13. | :38:14. | |
know that as a technology that can work, at the gap in the legislation | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
that needs fixing. But the next point, as touched on in response to | :38:20. | :38:22. | |
that intervention, is if there is a demand for this type of system? | :38:23. | :38:27. | |
There's little point in passing a law just for the benefit, for a | :38:28. | :38:34. | |
point of argument, that the structure exists. It must have a | :38:35. | :38:38. | |
practical effect as well to justify the time of this Parliament. | :38:39. | :38:45. | |
At the moment, 400 community radio stations are in existence with a | :38:46. | :38:49. | |
huge range of diversity in there that point -- output and we have | :38:50. | :38:57. | |
real diversity in these registrations. Interestingly, there | :38:58. | :39:04. | |
are quite a number of British voters -- which is forces radio stations | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
and they operate as community radio stations, such as Aldershot radio | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
and another one on Salisbury Plain. They operate using community FM | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
licences. They would potentially benefit from this type of framework | :39:19. | :39:23. | |
being created. There are community stations that reflect the area they | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
are in, like hills FM in Coventry which I was once interviewed on and | :39:29. | :39:32. | |
things like Riviera FM in Torbay which normally ends up broadcasting | :39:33. | :39:39. | |
via the Internet as their sole digital output. If you could | :39:40. | :39:42. | |
broadcast on the Internet, you could quite quickly convert to using a | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
small-scale multiplex hence why I am keen for this structure to be | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
created. As I touched on earlier, we have hospital radio stations that | :39:54. | :39:56. | |
give more than something to listen to was staying on award, but are | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
actually part of the local community. Several already operate | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
as community FM stations. I would like to see them have the | :40:05. | :40:11. | |
opportunity, if they wish to, to have community DAB stations. They | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
are clearly not going to want to cover and approximately county sized | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
area. They are not going to look to compete with a national DAB station. | :40:20. | :40:27. | |
There should at least be a practical opportunity to go one to digital | :40:28. | :40:30. | |
radio if that is what they see as the natural progression for their | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
services. Can I congratulate my honourable friend and bringing | :40:37. | :40:40. | |
forward this excellence built to broaden choice for community | :40:41. | :40:43. | |
providers but would he also joined me in congratulating the volunteers | :40:44. | :40:48. | |
who work across the country in our community radio stations and would | :40:49. | :40:53. | |
also welcome the opportunity to expand their role in our | :40:54. | :40:57. | |
communities? Can I thank my honourable friend and next-door | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
neighbour for that intervention. You look at the way hospital radio | :41:02. | :41:04. | |
provides an opportunity for volunteers to be part of delivering | :41:05. | :41:10. | |
a service to patients but also to develop skills and talents that may | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
well sustain them into a paid career in the future. Thereafter stories of | :41:14. | :41:19. | |
people who have started off on community radio as a volunteer but | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
are then a talent that they can take so much further. I know she will | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
know of Torbay Hospital radio which regularly provides the outside | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
broadcast system for a number of community events and fares and it | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
isn't just sitting there. The image of hospital radio is someone sat in | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
a broom cupboard at the bottom of the hospital playing requests. | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
Actually, they get out in the community, do interviews and looks | :41:48. | :41:51. | |
to be more than just a station we listened to in a hospital bed and | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
one that really needs contribution. I thank my honourable friend very | :41:56. | :41:58. | |
much for giving way. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In my office, I have a | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
young lady who volunteers at one of the local hospital radios and she | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
said more over what it gives them is them the chance to go round and | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
befriend patients. They are actually a conduit between the radio station | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
and patients. That makes them feel befriended, they take their shows to | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
the patient needs and it allows them to actually feel that somebody is | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
taking their views as important and also listening to the things that | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
they might want to listen to. Would he agree with me that actually when | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
you hear so much negative about hospitals, hospital radio provides | :42:40. | :42:42. | |
so much and can actually improve that element of loneliness we talk | :42:43. | :42:43. | |
about often? I thank her such a passionate | :42:44. | :42:53. | |
intervention on behalf of the hospital radios and I totally agree | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
with her point. It's not just about providing a song to listen to, it's | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
about providing the sense of community in hospital. Why would we | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
want to maintain a licensing that effectively bar is the possibility | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
of them going onto digital radio? Why would we want to say to them, | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
you can go digital, but you'll have to do it on the same basis as fairly | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
large regional radio stations? Or radio stations owned by fairly large | :43:23. | :43:29. | |
media conglomerates. Why would we do that, by not allowing this Bill a | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
second reading and allowing some small-scale transition to develop. | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
We want to do that, not just because of the technical point wouldn't it | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
be nice to have a better sound system, we want to do it because we | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
think it's right to give them the chance an opportunity if that's the | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
way they want to take the radio station in future. The whole point | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
of this Bill is to give options. It's an option to go onto DAB. It | :43:54. | :43:59. | |
doesn't make any requirements are then one and it doesn't require the | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
existing multiplexers breeders to do something to allow them to do that. | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
It just gives them the opportunity to do it themselves in a practical, | :44:08. | :44:12. | |
affordable way, but without this framework, they wouldn't be able to | :44:13. | :44:17. | |
do. So what exactly those reasons, we want to give them the | :44:18. | :44:26. | |
opportunity. In short, there are lots of examples of where this Bill | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
could help drive local service, great news and information from | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
South Uist to the Scilly Isles. This is about giving legislative | :44:38. | :44:40. | |
opportunity to form structure for that growth. Not asking the taxpayer | :44:41. | :44:46. | |
submit fund a load of small scale multiplexes across the country, I'm | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
not asking existing multiplexers owners to provide space on their | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
broadcast systems for these services. This is about giving an | :44:56. | :45:03. | |
opportunity. The one thing when I give a little bit of thought, is | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
where this type of service might in the future provide an opportunity to | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
help sustain local newsrooms. Across the country, many local newspapers | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
are struggling to maintain capacity for investigative journalism at a | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
local level. In the past, we rightly made sure there were very strong | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
restrictions between a potentially dominant local newspaper owner also | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
owning one of a handful of local FM licences. But with the Internet and | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
the growth of other News sources, means a wider platform may be needed | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
to sustain some level of professional journalism in an area, | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
or not just seeing it reduced to purely the BBC having a pool of | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
local journalists available. It's not something I'll dwell on in terms | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
of this Bill as such, but it's worth considering where smaller scale | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
digital radio operations might have a role in future. It's perhaps | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
something to consider for future policy. Thank you. You see the | :46:08. | :46:16. | |
taxpayer is not going to have to fund these small multiplexes. I'm | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
wondering where funds are going to come from. That has to be factored | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
into what each of these community radio stations would pay to use the | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
service. I thank her for that most helpful intervention. In essence, it | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
would be similar to how they fund FM transmissions, if they wish to get | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
the equipment and go onto the licence. There might be some | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
opportunity in terms of crowdfunding in other environments that could be | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
decided to provide support. In local authority might decide it wishes to | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
help provide infrastructure, and I emphasise that clearly, the | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
infrastructure. It's not the role of the council to provide a radio | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
station in the same way that it's not their role to provide a local | :47:06. | :47:12. | |
newspaper. Would it be funded commercially? Is it we've seen from | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
the trials that yes, there would be some demand from community radio | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
stations to provide this infrastructure. The costs have | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
fallen significantly. The actual cost to do it, particularly if | :47:25. | :47:31. | |
you've got a friendly tall building owner, it can be relatively little. | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
We've seen the community radio sector flourish on analogue, without | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
heavy tax poor support or subsidy. I didn't see any reason why the | :47:41. | :47:44. | |
community digital radio infrastructure would not develop in | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
a similar way. By creating the opportunity, by seeing some schemes | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
go ahead, it would give us a chance look what happens in reality. The | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
Minister might decide that in years to come, particularly if there was a | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
move to all digital, there may be an argument for support for community | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
stations to support to DAB. But it's about creating the opportunity for | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
them, then we can look at where new services have started. I can't see | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
any reason why in Torbay it would be any different from Bristol or | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
Taunton, if the opportunity is there, people seem to want to dig it | :48:24. | :48:29. | |
up. As we will perhaps touch on and we have touched on there, there may | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
be opportunities for groups like councils and universities to look at | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
providing the infrastructure to allow creativity to spawn in the | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
area. But this is about infrastructure giving an | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
opportunity, it is for others to use their sparks of entrepreneurship to | :48:46. | :48:49. | |
take specific ideas forward, not for the parliament to legislate on | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
whether there should be a community radio station in a particular area | :48:53. | :48:56. | |
on digital on whether a particular operator should be required to bid | :48:57. | :49:02. | |
up an aerial broadcasting system. In terms of the bill itself, as I've | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
already touched on several times, the Bill does not require any | :49:08. | :49:11. | |
station to move to DAB, neither does it require anyone who has an | :49:12. | :49:14. | |
existing multiplex to provide space on it. As I say, as I touched on in | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
an earlier intervention, there has been a debate at times about our | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
entire radio system going digital, but that is not the debate for | :49:26. | :49:30. | |
today, this is just about providing an opportunity to go digital, is not | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
about forcing them to go digital. I neither seek to interfere with the | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
current local or national multiplexes. Provision may in | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
particular include disqualification of those in a national or existing | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
local radio multiplex. Any license may also include provision to | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
provide services required by it to be done on a non-commercial | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
business, yet there is a small bit of flexibility to allow for unique | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
circumstances, where there might be a pressing case. Although I would | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
emphasise, if members have specific concerns, they are more than welcome | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
to join the Bill committee to look at this in and I know there will be | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
a debate on how exactly we get the law right on point. It is possible | :50:17. | :50:24. | |
in the Bill to reserve some space and four EE, and small scale | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
services, which might be of benefit in isolated communities, or where | :50:30. | :50:34. | |
there are limited opportunities to install new infrastructure. One | :50:35. | :50:38. | |
point that may come up in some locations, this would apply in | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
central London, there may only be a small number of tall buildings that | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
are the realistic option for installing this infrastructure, so | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
it might make sense in an individual location to have a requirement that | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
you can effectively as part of the licensing of it, state that they | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
must provide some access to another service. Again, that is not about | :51:01. | :51:05. | |
compelling people on existing infrastructure, is about ensuring | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
that, for example, we didn't have a circumstance where there were four | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
tall buildings in an area and one operator decided to agree with the | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
owners of those buildings that they were the only ones that had the | :51:18. | :51:19. | |
right to put broadcast equipment on top of them and then see a license | :51:20. | :51:26. | |
effectively excluding others. As I've repeated several times, their | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
bill is aimed at putting this together, without being so rigid | :51:34. | :51:36. | |
that unique circumstances cannot be accommodated. As stated in the | :51:37. | :51:42. | |
explanatory notes that go with this bill, the final details were | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
regulatory framework will be subject to a full consultation with the | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
industry. There is one final issue that I do need to address, in terms | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
of my own opening to this debate, is that I recognise this Bill does have | :51:56. | :52:02. | |
a targeted power to modify primary legislation by statutory instrument. | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
However, in justification of this, there are already presidents to | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
create lighter touch regulatory regimes were smaller audiovisual | :52:12. | :52:15. | |
services. A similar approach was taken by Parliament to create such | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
regimes by creating secondary legislation but community radio and | :52:21. | :52:28. | |
local television in 2004 and 2012. This builds on those precedents that | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
Parliament has already accepted, in what are strikingly similar | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
circumstances. The power in this bill will be used in a deregulatory | :52:40. | :52:44. | |
way and will not create additional burdens on existing multiplex | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
operators. Finally, to confirm that this power is only accessible by | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
affirmative order, in both houses before such modifications could come | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
into force. I am sure the Minister would wish to set up in his speech | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
similar points and to confirm this is the intention of the government. | :53:06. | :53:15. | |
This builds on precedents that have already been used on very similar | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
areas of policy development, and I believe therefore it is appropriate | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
to seek to have in this Bill, when we are dealing with something that | :53:26. | :53:34. | |
is very, very similar. To sum up, this Bill creates opportunities for | :53:35. | :53:37. | |
new creative travel to flourish, gets hundreds of local stations are | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
practical and affordable way to go digital, and as I now we will hear | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
from many members about to speak, the transfer more communities to | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
have a unique choice of radio stations that reflect the area they | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
live them. To not get this Bill its second reading would not be to help | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
any radio operator, it would not be to protect any interest and it would | :53:59. | :54:01. | |
not be to see things develop in a better way. It would merely be to | :54:02. | :54:08. | |
block growth and development of community radio stations and | :54:09. | :54:09. | |
restrict development in this industry in a way that we would find | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
absolutely ridiculous in any other sphere. This is about supporting | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
small community stations, it's about giving that the local opportunity | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
and it's about allowing broadcast radio to reflect the explosion of | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
creativity that is going on on the Internet. The days when we felt we | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
should strictly regulate and control very small numbers of operations, I | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
believe, are gone. That's why I hope all members will support this Bill | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
and that's why believe this Bill deserves a second reading and one | :54:42. | :54:49. | |
the Has full support today. The question is that the Bill now be | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
read a second time? Or shall we have? I think which each year from | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
Pauline Latham. Can I congratulate my honourable friend for making such | :55:02. | :55:10. | |
an informed speech, but also for giving so much of his time to | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
multiple interventions from many other members on this side of the | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
house. Sorry and very surprised that there are no members, apart from | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
front bench, on the other side of the house, because this particular | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
bill, I would've thought would affect single constituency in the | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
country. Resigned, yes, I think! I think every constituency could be | :55:38. | :55:42. | |
affected by this Bill, which I think is a very sensible Bill, and I want | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
also to pay tribute to my honourable friend for all the hard work and | :55:48. | :55:51. | |
effort he has Putin to bring forward this debate on such an subject. I | :55:52. | :56:00. | |
thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Would she not find it more | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
surprising that there was not more broad-based interest in the house on | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
2015, 90% of all stations, but 100% 2015, 90% of all stations, but 100% | :56:10. | :56:15. | |
of all local stations, contacted and had talks with their local MP? Yes, | :56:16. | :56:21. | |
I think it is disappointing. But it is a Friday and there are never that | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
many members coming to Parliament on Friday, because it is traditionally | :56:27. | :56:29. | |
a day we all spend an our constituencies. | :56:30. | :56:39. | |
I would just like my honourable friend to reflect on the fact that | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
Parliament is sitting. There is no such thing as a constituency Friday. | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
Parliament is sitting and as far as I am concerned, members of | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
Parliament, if at all possible, should be in Parliament. I know that | :56:56. | :56:58. | |
my honourable friend is usually here on a Friday and I have do say I am | :56:59. | :57:05. | |
guilty, as many others are, of using Friday as a day that I do normally | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
spend in my constituency, but I am delighted to be here today to | :57:10. | :57:13. | |
support my honourable friend for Torbay. Now, I have said that he has | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
brought forward this debate on a very important subject and polite | :57:18. | :57:27. | |
words are often said more out of custom but I cannot say them more | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
genuinely today, as I know my honourable friend slept in | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
Parliament last night to try to get this bill through, such was his | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
dedication. As he pointed out afterwards, the reality of sleeping | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
in the royal palace is far less glamorous than it sounds. I hope for | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
his sake he has had a better nights sleep before the second reading of | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
the bill today than he had when he tried to introduce it. I don't know | :57:53. | :57:57. | |
exactly how he passed the hours while he waited to get his bill | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
submitted, but it would have been extremely apt, given the bill's | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
subject, if he had listened to digital radio to keep him company | :58:06. | :58:12. | |
and pass away the time. Digital has and is in so many sectors across the | :58:13. | :58:18. | |
UK so important for radio. In the third quarter of 2016, just over | :58:19. | :58:26. | |
half of all radio listening, 45.5%, was on a digital platform. That | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
figure will increase. The radio industry itself predicts that if | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
current trends continue, the number will be 50% by the end of 2017. I | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
would have thought that was a fairly Conservative view. Small-scale DAB, | :58:41. | :58:47. | |
the kind of digital radio that this bill deals with, is especially | :58:48. | :58:52. | |
important. Industry data shows 60% of UK homes today have at least one | :58:53. | :58:59. | |
DAB radio and the DAB terrestrial platform accounts for around three | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
quarters of all digital radio listening. These figures underline | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
the importance of the area and make it more important than ever that | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
small-scale ditched all radio becomes a viable option for as many | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
stations as possible. I actually listened to radio Derby recently and | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
the digital platform and it is a better signal than I got and I'm | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
very pleased that they have been able to go on to that platform as | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
well as continuing on FM. Unfortunately smaller radio stations | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
currently face the major disadvantage when it comes to | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
digital radio. At present, the cost and licensing scheme are not | :59:41. | :59:46. | |
conducive to allowing small-scale radio services access to the digital | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
radio network. As with anything, costs do vary but Digital | :59:53. | :59:59. | |
specialists estimate the cost of a mono service is between 3500 and | :00:00. | :00:07. | |
?5,000 per month. That could mean around ?60,000 per year. Needless to | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
say, that is a pretty hefty sum for a small station to have do pay, with | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
the consequence that these smaller stations that want to operate are | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
priced out of the market. If we contrast that with Ofcom's estimates | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
that using small-scale DAB would allow stations to access the digital | :00:26. | :00:30. | |
market for just ?9,000, that is a huge difference and makes it much, | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
much more accessible for small stations. Alongside the cost, the | :00:35. | :00:41. | |
current climate creates a number of other key problems for smaller | :00:42. | :00:48. | |
stations. Local DAB multiplexes exist and are used effectively by | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
several stations, like, as I said, radio Derby, which sits under East | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
Staffordshire as well as Derbyshire as a county. There size means they | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
are not suitable for smaller stations that want to switch to DAB | :01:07. | :01:13. | |
and can't. Additionally, stations could encounter problems in practice | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
because there is not always sufficient space multiplexes for | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
them. Providers know they face a fall in audience numbers and | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
advertising revenue if DAB comes -- becomes the norm and they quite | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
obviously want to change that. Ofcom says there is a major demand for | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
change and that appropriate legislation will be followed up with | :01:41. | :01:48. | |
action. In 2016, they state that there is a significant need for | :01:49. | :02:05. | |
small-scale DAV -- DAB and things need to be more commercially | :02:06. | :02:07. | |
sustainable. That statement comes after a trial in which 100 small | :02:08. | :02:15. | |
stations were able to successfully broadcast on DAB for the first time. | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
Those stations came from a wide range of backgrounds, providing an | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
even more compelling case that more small stations could make a | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
success... I thank my honourable friend for giving way. Talking about | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
community radios, which sometimes have dwindling listeners, audience | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
numbers, De she also think this might be an opportunity for print | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
media to have the broadcast from their newsrooms, because we know | :02:49. | :02:50. | |
what pressure they are under as well? Yes, I entirely agree with my | :02:51. | :02:59. | |
honourable friend. For instance, locally, the Derby Telegraph is | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
losing its readership, sadly, because it is a very good local | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
paper, and I think the web is not exactly conducive to local papers | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
because they have to do so much local advertising which intrudes on | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
the media and the reading of the reports. I do believe that if they | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
could broadcast as well, that would produce more competition and help | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
other local media to get into the act. Would the honourable lady give | :03:29. | :03:35. | |
way? Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way as well. A lot | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
of local newspapers also now try to move very firmly into using much | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
more activity online as well. Does my honourable friend not think that | :03:48. | :03:49. | |
one of the things that could also happen is that not only could there | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
be a community licence but it could also appear on the Internet, too? | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
Yes, and I'm sure that would be the case. I thank my honourable friend | :04:01. | :04:06. | |
for intervening at that point. The compelling case is that all small | :04:07. | :04:11. | |
stations could make a success of using digital radio and the initial | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
trial was actually so successful that it was extended for two years. | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
Alongside test the viability and effectiveness done inside the UK, | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
the international use of small-scale DAB offer another indication of the | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
benefits of the expansion of this new technology. It has been used | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
successfully abroad, with stations using it on air in both Switzerland | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
and France. Given the established track record, we can see that this | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
bill would be helpful. It would make a tangible difference for an | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
estimated 450 stations who could take advantage of small-scale DAB | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
and I think we heard from my honourable friend and from | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
interventions that it was hospital radio -- even hospital radio could | :04:56. | :05:01. | |
get in on this, widen their listenership, which I think is | :05:02. | :05:09. | |
incredibly important. We have talked about hospital radio. Can I talk | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
about radio in universities and colleges? Run Shaw College, which Mr | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
Deputy Speaker you know very well, has a fantastic radio station which | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
broadcasts at the college but of course it has so many links with | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
local businesses and community enterprises that it could take | :05:28. | :05:30. | |
advantage of this new technology and deep proposals in this bill. Do you | :05:31. | :05:37. | |
not agree? Yes, of course, and of course that also means that it can | :05:38. | :05:42. | |
be used as part of a degree to give the students the opportunity of real | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
live practice on radio, which they would not normally have. It is | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
something which I'm sure radio Derby and the University of Derby would | :05:53. | :05:55. | |
embrace, because they have already embraced taking over the local | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
theatre so that they can give students real live practice of | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
producing plays, acting in place as a practical example, so that when | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
they go into the world of work as people working in the local | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
university radio would have when they went to university, -- when | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
they were two interviews, they would have real life experience and we | :06:19. | :06:21. | |
know that is really important in interviews as employers. I think it | :06:22. | :06:29. | |
provides an opportunity to alter the current legislation and the | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
framework for multiplex licensing as set out in the broadcasting act in | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
1996, to introduce a lighter touch regulatory framework. Greater | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
numbers of small radio stations could expand into a digital market | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
which do not currently -- they do not currently have access to. I | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
particularly commend how the proposed approach has adopted | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
features of effective secondary legislation which has successfully | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
modified primary legislation, but jazz community radio order 2004, by | :07:02. | :07:09. | |
allowing the 1996 act to be modified rather than replaced. This slight | :07:10. | :07:13. | |
but very important distinction will not only make things simpler, it | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
will also allow for the creation of a new licensing regime which will | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
take account of the needs of smaller stations. Whilst the use of | :07:23. | :07:28. | |
small-scale DAB is relatively novel as a form of technology, | :07:29. | :07:32. | |
implementing this bill fits into the Government's long-term radio | :07:33. | :07:37. | |
strategy, published in 2014 in the Department for Culture, Media and | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
Sport's Digital radio action plan. That plan recognise that radio is | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
changing and that Government needs to respond to this by facilitating a | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
digital friendly environment where 50% of all listening is digital. The | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
paper also states that the transition to digital and the | :07:58. | :08:00. | |
changes the Government makes should always be driven by the listener. I | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
would add that to some extent the change must also be driven by the | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
consent of radio station providers themselves. It is clear from Ofcom | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
trials that smaller stations really do want to access the digital market | :08:16. | :08:20. | |
and we must not ignore the views. As well as setting out its digital | :08:21. | :08:26. | |
criteria, the paper stresses the major contribution that radio makes | :08:27. | :08:30. | |
to the UK, outlining that 90% of the adult population choose into eggs in | :08:31. | :08:37. | |
excess of 1 billion listening hours a week. That allows them exposure to | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
an endless variety of cultural topics and the chance to listen to a | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
myriad of fantastic music genres. From acid jazz to cite Deco. I'm not | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
sure if I have pronounced that right, but I probably haven't! I | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
must admit that when I was probing the Internet rather in-depth in | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
order to find a musical genre beginning with said, it was | :09:07. | :09:14. | |
difficult, I was very pleased to find the music of which I speak. The | :09:15. | :09:23. | |
fact this legislation could lead to economic growth and job creation | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
cannot be dismissed. If we have so many more digital stations, not only | :09:30. | :09:32. | |
will it give real value to the experience of this young people, as | :09:33. | :09:38. | |
I presume it will be mainly young people who take it up, with that | :09:39. | :09:44. | |
experience they can then go on to bigger, brighter things in the | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
larger broadcasting corporations, whether they are the BBC or | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
commercial operations. That cannot be dismissed. It will create many | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
jobs. At the moment, the entire radio sector is worth an estimated | :09:58. | :10:07. | |
?1.2 billion and employs 17,000 people. Making sure that legislation | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
which affects the sector is helpful and up to date is a very important | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
responsibility and one that should encourage us to introduce this bill | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
today and I am sure the Minister will have many of these aspects in | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
mind when he responds later. I therefore once again congratulate my | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
honourable friend for introducing this bill and urged the House to | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
support its second reading today. Let us make sure that his sleepless | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
nights were definitely worth it. Absolutely. David Nuttall. It is a | :10:37. | :10:44. | |
great pleasure as always to follow my honourable friend, the Member for | :10:45. | :10:51. | |
Mid Derbyshire. I want to start this morning by congratulating my | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
honourable friend, the Member for Torbay, for the very short way in | :10:55. | :11:02. | |
which he introduced this debate on what is quite a technical subject. | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
It has the capacity to be quite a dry subject and he brought it to | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
life this morning in a very entertaining way. That is whilst | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
dealing with all the technical aspects in a very confident manner. | :11:16. | :11:25. | |
This bill is one which is ideally suited, I would venture to suggest, | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
for the private members Bill procedure. It does not seem to | :11:32. | :11:38. | |
impose any cost on the taxpayer and it deals with a relatively narrow | :11:39. | :11:49. | |
area of the law. One which has the bill seeking to do with a problem | :11:50. | :11:52. | |
which has arisen that could not have been foreseen at the time of the | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
original legislation being drawn up because of the developments in | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
technology and the advances in software and the production in the | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
price of the equipment, really, as well, which is something I will come | :12:09. | :12:09. | |
onto. All this has left a gap in the | :12:10. | :12:21. | |
legislation, which this Bill seeks to fill. I will give way. I am | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way. Does he not think the | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
other opportunity for this legislation would not have been | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
through the Digital Economy Bill? I am grateful to have for that | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
intervention. It would seem that the nature of this Bill could have been | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
included in the Digital Economy Bill. Maybe there Minister, when he | :12:53. | :12:59. | |
addresses us, we'll be able to explain why it wasn't, given that it | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
is undoubtedly an area which needs addressing. I should say at the | :13:07. | :13:12. | |
outset that I wish to support the Bill, I have no wish to scupper it. | :13:13. | :13:17. | |
I do have concerns about the precise detail, which I will come onto. But | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
in broad principle, I agree that this Bill is needed. Will he agreed | :13:25. | :13:37. | |
with me that the borders of this particular aspect of the law being | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
dealt with through the Private members Bill Root, rather than being | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
part of the government Digital economy Bill, is that it makes it | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
clear it's about resolving this issue for community radio stations, | :13:50. | :14:01. | |
rather than it being linked to broadcasting and media regulation? | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
My own view is it could have been dealt with without any undue | :14:05. | :14:10. | |
side-effects in the Digital Economy Bill. But we are where we are and we | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
do have this separate Bill. Perhaps we will jump onto a point that I was | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
going to make any way, which is that this Bill of itself is, we might | :14:21. | :14:28. | |
politely called, and enabling Bill. It will be of no benefit to anyone | :14:29. | :14:37. | |
unless it is driven for words after it becomes an act, after it features | :14:38. | :14:46. | |
the statute book. By the Minister, who I am sure will want to take | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
advantage of the powers, by making an order and doing something about | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
it. The Bill itself would help anybody, it's an enabling Bill. For | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
it to be of any use at all to man or beast, it needs the Minister and his | :15:03. | :15:11. | |
team and department to bring the appropriate order as soon as | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
possible, I hope, if this Bill does reach the statute book, to cover all | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
the various aspects that are set out in clause one. And to give those | :15:22. | :15:28. | |
powers to off com, so that they can set about licensing new | :15:29. | :15:37. | |
broadcasters, so that the broadcasters can enjoy what some of | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
those who have taken part in the trials have already benefited form. | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
Basically, this Bill is about making it easier to broadcast digital | :15:49. | :15:58. | |
radio, at a time, at the time when the original act was passed, it was | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
something that was very new, and it was only thought possible that it | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
could be dealt with on a large-scale, on the national and | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
countywide scale. But since that act was passed, it has become possible | :16:17. | :16:24. | |
now, through advances in technology, or smaller scale multiplexes to | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
operate and to provide opportunities for community radio stations and | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
smaller scale commercial stations to operate. I should declare an | :16:36. | :16:43. | |
interest, in that I am a very avid user of my digital radio. In fact, I | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
carry it with me everywhere. It is at this very moment in my coat | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
pocket and I very rarely go anywhere without my digital radio. We are not | :16:55. | :17:02. | |
allowed to use props, as the honourable gentleman knows, but it | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
is a wonderful thing. It's my second one, because the first one broke | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
down. I wonder if he would give way on that note. I wonder if he might | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
share with us what sort of radio stations he listens to and whether | :17:20. | :17:23. | |
any local community stations are among his particular favourites? Al | :17:24. | :17:30. | |
be honest, it's usually Radio 4 radio five radio five Sports Extra, | :17:31. | :17:36. | |
particularly when it's carrying the cricket commentary. I'll certainly | :17:37. | :17:45. | |
give way to the cat back minister. -- Minister. Does he agree that many | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
people carry radios with them, particularly on a Friday so that | :17:50. | :17:52. | |
they can listen to his speeches in parliaments? I'm sure that's not the | :17:53. | :18:02. | |
case! Of course, my honourable friend in the previous intervention | :18:03. | :18:05. | |
raised the question as to whether or not I use it to listen to community | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
radio stations, but of course, there are very few of those operating. And | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
this Bill, if it reaches the statute book and is then an act and is | :18:19. | :18:26. | |
followed up by an order, and some activity from community radio | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
stations, it will enable better be even more stations on my Little | :18:31. | :18:34. | |
radio than there are already. There are already plenty on there. I also | :18:35. | :18:42. | |
made sure that my last car, when I bought it a few years ago, Hadi | :18:43. | :18:47. | |
Digital radio in it. And is now virtually all cars have it as | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
standard. Then it was an option that you had to pay a little bit extra if | :18:52. | :18:58. | |
you wanted a digital radio, mainly because Test Match Special was no | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
longer broadcast on longwave and in order to reach it, you had to have | :19:04. | :19:12. | |
radio five Sports Extra. Would he not agree with me that this is one | :19:13. | :19:19. | |
of the biggest changes since Parliament last substantive movement | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
to broadcast regulations, is the spread of DAB radio into the car. I | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
was an early adopter back in 2003, I got the digital radio I have at | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
home, but seeing it in most new cars on the market, it creates the need | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
for community radio stations to be there as well as the larger | :19:41. | :19:46. | |
stations. He is absolutely right. There has been an enormous increase | :19:47. | :19:49. | |
in the use of digital radio in the past few years. And while I fully | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
understand the concerns of those who operate on the FM frequencies, it | :19:57. | :20:05. | |
seems to be that inexorably, we will be moving towards a situation, just | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
as we have a television, where radio will operate in a Digital space in | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
years to come. As members will be aware, it has been in the news this | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
week that it has been touched on earlier, that Norway is planning is | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
to become the first nation to move its radio stations onto an entirely | :20:28. | :20:34. | |
digital platform, or that the next few months. It will take many years | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
and I hope we proceed very cautiously, because I am very | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
conscious that there will particularly be elderly people who | :20:42. | :20:43. | |
don't have access to modern equipment. But we managed it with | :20:44. | :20:49. | |
television, and it seems to me that it wouldn't be on the wit of man for | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
us to be able to manage it in due course of the radio. But it will | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
need us to proceed very carefully and to make sure that all the | :21:01. | :21:08. | |
technical research is properly done. To be fair, of column are on with | :21:09. | :21:14. | |
this and it's something that if there's time, I will touch on | :21:15. | :21:20. | |
briefly. That the report that was issued last year by off, | :21:21. | :21:29. | |
specifically refers to the feasibility of being able to | :21:30. | :21:33. | |
accommodate existing commercial and community stations, which currently | :21:34. | :21:39. | |
transmit on analogue, onto DAB. One concern I do have about the Bill is | :21:40. | :21:53. | |
clause one, subsection four, small sea, which requires, states that but | :21:54. | :22:00. | |
it would require small scale multiplexes services to be provided | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
on a non-commercial basis. I see no reason for this, personally, I see | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
no reason why we should try and restrict it to non-commercial | :22:11. | :22:18. | |
services, as my honourable friend said in his opening speech. The | :22:19. | :22:27. | |
costs of moving straight onto the larger multiplexes could be very | :22:28. | :22:33. | |
prohibitive for any start-up operation, and what I want to do is | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
to see more competition and to see the costs of entry reduced, so that | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
the barriers to entry are as low as possible. And it seems to me that | :22:48. | :22:53. | |
restricting this and including a reference to a non-commercial only | :22:54. | :22:57. | |
is something which is not necessarily, and something which, if | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
this Bill proceeds, I will be looking at further. I thank the | :23:03. | :23:11. | |
honourable member for briefly giving way. The section in relation to it | :23:12. | :23:23. | |
says, it may, in particular. While it alludes that there may be a | :23:24. | :23:27. | |
requirement that service is provided on a non-commercial basis, that is | :23:28. | :23:35. | |
not a must. I except that, and in fact, in making that intervention, | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
my honourable friend draws attention to another point which I was going | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
to make about the Bill, and that is that in many ways, it raises more | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
questions than it answers. Because of the use of language, it doesn't | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
make it clear what is going to happen. I hope when we hear from the | :23:59. | :24:04. | |
Minister, he may give us a more clarity about exactly how open we | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
are going to see this play out, because there are competing | :24:10. | :24:12. | |
interests, I can understand that there will be the commercial | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
interests that the larger operators will want to see it made easier for | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
new competitors to join the market. But I don't see that as any reason | :24:24. | :24:29. | |
not to allow new entrants to the market. More competition would be a | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
good thing for them. But I particularly support this Bill | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
because I want to see my all area be able to benefit from possibly having | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
its own commercial or non-commercial radio station, a community station. | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
There is already, order has been in the past, operating in the town, | :24:54. | :25:02. | |
something called Project 29 Radio, which I have appeared on a | :25:03. | :25:08. | |
small-scale station, operating from the centre of the town, but the | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
small staff working on a volunteer basis, running community programmes. | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
It's the sort of small-scale community radio station that I see | :25:21. | :25:32. | |
being able to benefit from the future, if this Bill goes ahead, and | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
that it is made easier for small operators to be given a digital | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
licence, and for them to be able to operate with modern equipment, which | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
by definition, will be the latest available, because it will be new as | :25:50. | :25:56. | |
up-to-date, broadcasting over the relatively small area, smaller than, | :25:57. | :26:01. | |
for example, the whole of Greater Manchester or the whole of | :26:02. | :26:12. | |
Lancashire. I'm very conscious of the fact that there are many members | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
who have given time to this debate this morning, so I don't want to | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
extend my remarks and Julie. In conclusion, I would want to refer | :26:22. | :26:50. | |
to the trials allowed last year by Ofcom. My honourable friend touched | :26:51. | :27:02. | |
on these in his remarks. There were three different types of trial | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
allowed. They covered different sorts of equipment. Without going | :27:07. | :27:16. | |
into detail, they raised from 9000 as the cheapest to ?17,000. It gives | :27:17. | :27:26. | |
some idea of the cost of the equipment that was involved. | :27:27. | :27:34. | |
Different licensees were given different equipment to try it out, | :27:35. | :27:40. | |
to see how efficiently it would operate. The results are all set out | :27:41. | :27:54. | |
in the Ofcom report. It is a lengthy document and will take some time to | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
read through. It is worth it for those interested to study that | :28:01. | :28:09. | |
document because it does set out the detail of the nature of the | :28:10. | :28:17. | |
equipment and how successful it was. More importantly, perhaps, the | :28:18. | :28:28. | |
report concluded at the end of the report that the typical scope for | :28:29. | :28:30. | |
the wider roll-out of the DAB. Although we can solve the | :28:31. | :28:47. | |
problem of the legislative framework and how we create a licensing | :28:48. | :28:57. | |
regime, there is a problem around the frequency blocks on which DAB | :28:58. | :29:10. | |
operates. They are fixed, there is not much we can do about what is | :29:11. | :29:22. | |
there. They currently use VHF band three blocks. It is these | :29:23. | :29:33. | |
frequencies which provide the spectrum to support the existing | :29:34. | :29:42. | |
multiplexes and the local commercial multiplexes. When Ofcom looked at | :29:43. | :29:54. | |
small-scale DAB trials, it was announced that the first entry would | :29:55. | :30:03. | |
be required because DAB receivers could also be used for lower free | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
causes than are available in the UK. They also carried out an initial | :30:07. | :30:23. | |
study as to whether it would be technically feasible to develop a | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
future platform that might provide an opportunity for those smaller | :30:31. | :30:39. | |
community, commercial stations which currently transmit only one analogue | :30:40. | :30:49. | |
radio to move to DAB. There is a chance to transfer everything onto | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
DAB. We need those we can see is available to be able to do it. Ofcom | :30:54. | :30:59. | |
conclude that in most areas, it should be technically possible to | :31:00. | :31:10. | |
develop the frequency allowance for small-scale DAB. They do say that | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
more detailed planning and optimisation will be required to | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
develop the frequency plan which could be put into practice. I will | :31:22. | :31:28. | |
certainly give way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :31:29. | :31:34. | |
Would he agree that the point of this Bill before us today is about | :31:35. | :31:42. | |
that, to enable smaller multiplexers to set up and produce a death across | :31:43. | :31:54. | |
the country? I would agree. That is what this Bill is seeking to do. As | :31:55. | :32:04. | |
I mentioned earlier, the Bill itself will not achieve that. It will need | :32:05. | :32:14. | |
action from the Department. Hopefully the Minister in his | :32:15. | :32:21. | |
remarks will give the House the insurance that his Department will | :32:22. | :32:28. | |
work speedily in bringing this forward. With that, I will conclude | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
my remarks and wish this Bill well this morning. | :32:37. | :32:52. | |
I'd like to begin by congratulating my noble friend for bringing this | :32:53. | :33:03. | |
Bill. In all other research that he's done, it seems like quite a | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
completed Bill. It is very technical. Many of us who don't have | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
an engineering or science background are discussing this matter. We're | :33:19. | :33:25. | |
always running to catch up. I'm absolutely delighted that we have | :33:26. | :33:31. | |
this Bill this morning because we are going some way to anticipating | :33:32. | :33:41. | |
the future. I've got an admission to make, I am an absolute radio nut. | :33:42. | :33:47. | |
There have been periods in my life, sometimes years and years, where I | :33:48. | :34:01. | |
have always had a radio. The only image voices I heard apart from a | :34:02. | :34:07. | |
family work on short wave weightier. -- short wave radio. I'm now a | :34:08. | :34:22. | |
convert to digital. I know we have been discussing this morning about | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
the transfer from FM and the other frequencies. This can be somewhat | :34:29. | :34:38. | |
controversial. Norway is due this week to go completely to DAB. We | :34:39. | :34:46. | |
have to accept, and I know that my honourable friend has said this is | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
not about switching off other frequencies. My other honourable | :34:52. | :34:57. | |
friend mentioned that there might actually be technical difficulties | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
that. I will happily give way. She is or was very generous. On the | :35:05. | :35:12. | |
point of the switchover, does she feel that that isn't opportunity for | :35:13. | :35:16. | |
other countries to watch what Norway are doing, to watch and learn as we | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
take our radio forward into the future. That is an excellent point. | :35:21. | :35:28. | |
There are huge geographical and I'm a graphic differences between Norway | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
and us. But we should be watching and learning to see what happens. Is | :35:34. | :35:44. | |
the reason why Norway moving away from analogue forms is they do not | :35:45. | :35:58. | |
have test match special. Probably! I wouldn't dare to make any comment. | :35:59. | :36:11. | |
So the... I would give way, and then make some progress. The game of | :36:12. | :36:19. | |
cricket is a perfect example of the way we are approaching this whole | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
particular situation, we are quite happy to listen on Radio 2 a match | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
that will take five days to flow out its course and similarly it is good | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
that we are approaching change from analogue to digital as a slow and | :36:35. | :36:50. | |
measured way. I would agree... There is a balance, isn't there? We have | :36:51. | :36:59. | |
to do it in an revolution reword a. -- revolutionary way. There is a | :37:00. | :37:11. | |
great barrier that exists at the moment. In this Bill, we have seen | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
the costs for smoking in the radio is prohibitive. Different figures | :37:20. | :37:26. | |
have been raised. Looking at non-London multiplexes, around ?3500 | :37:27. | :37:38. | |
a month. That is too high for community radio TV racing. -- to be | :37:39. | :37:48. | |
raising. There are opportunities it can offer to businesses and the | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
communities. In the day and age when we can have groups and entrepreneurs | :37:53. | :37:59. | |
setting up from their laptops and mobile phones, it is to be affecting | :38:00. | :38:05. | |
where we're going in other spheres of life. Ideally, you want to focus | :38:06. | :38:13. | |
on community radio. We had woken about community radio in our own | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
constituencies. Honourable members have said to me, we are lucky that | :38:17. | :38:26. | |
we do have a radio station called Festival Radio. Mr dippy speaker | :38:27. | :38:39. | |
knows because his seat you to take in Leyland, the Leyland Festival is | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
the absolute highlight of Leyland life. It has had a long history of | :38:44. | :38:54. | |
Festival making, tanks, buses, the Pope Mobil. All of these things are | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
stored in the day come easy in Leyland. -- in the vehicle Museum. | :39:00. | :39:08. | |
The festival is a joyous occasion when we can make the most of what is | :39:09. | :39:13. | |
fantastic about Leyland and its heritage. Ireland are watching the | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
festival as a little girl. I now have the honour and pleasure... Back | :39:19. | :39:27. | |
in 2015, a group of local people came together and they wanted to | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
celebrate this. They wanted a moment and focus for this. Between April | :39:34. | :39:53. | |
and June 2015. The station came to FM in 2015. For other honourable | :39:54. | :40:07. | |
members, their -- they may hate never have heard of Farrington and | :40:08. | :40:14. | |
Moss side. We have these countywide multiplexes. There are sometimes | :40:15. | :40:22. | |
stories in Lancaster or in other parts which I cannot identify with. | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
These hyper local networks really appeal to people. There is community | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
involvement and it brought together people across generations and | :40:35. | :40:38. | |
backgrounds. This is the point I want to make in this speech. It | :40:39. | :40:44. | |
develop transferable skills. As my honourable friend mentioned, it is a | :40:45. | :40:56. | |
training ground. During the making of Festival radio, they developed | :40:57. | :41:02. | |
transferable skills such as marketing and production. They learn | :41:03. | :41:11. | |
from the other people. People from all different backgrounds. It was | :41:12. | :41:17. | |
peer-to-peer learning. It was a partnership. Ron Shaw College has | :41:18. | :41:27. | |
its own excellent radio station and other committee groups as well. It | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
is an opportunity for businesses to talk and for artists and performers | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
to have proper on-air experience in broadcast. | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
I know my first ever radio experience was as a candidate in the | :41:42. | :41:48. | |
2010 election and I was interviewed by De Vreede heel. I am sure the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
only person listening was my agent and my grandma, but was still a | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
great experience for me. These interview opportunities and all of | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
this was a really fantastic sense of community cohesion that grew up | :42:06. | :42:09. | |
outside of Leland Festival radio. I am very happy to give way. She has | :42:10. | :42:17. | |
been very generous this morning, thank you. The honourable lady | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
touches on the value of community radio and I know that she is a great | :42:21. | :42:28. | |
advocate for tackling isolation. We cheer agree with me that community | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
radio is an excellent means of reaching into some of the most | :42:33. | :42:38. | |
vulnerable and isolated members of our communities? My honourable | :42:39. | :42:41. | |
friend anticipate the next part of my speech. It's almost as though she | :42:42. | :42:46. | |
had seen it in the tearoom, which she has not. I'm buried glad that | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
the point I'm making industries about isolation and loneliness are | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
getting through. That's exactly the point I would like to make next. | :42:55. | :43:00. | |
Just to give a slight conclusion on Leland Festival radio and its | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
excellent work, although they are carrying on broadcasting breakfast | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
programmes with Keith Bradshaw as the presenter, it's very limited. | :43:10. | :43:18. | |
The aim for the group is to be a permanent community Radio 4 on | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
Leland firing ten and Moss side. I now want to go on to the point that | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
my honourable friend made, because I believe that hyper local radio | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
really does have a role in combating loneliness and isolation. Members | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
will know, because I had been raising it that along with the | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
honourable lady the member from Leeds West, she and I are carrying | :43:42. | :43:48. | |
on the work was started by a late colleague Jo Cox. Harriet loneliness | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
commission will be launched in Speaker 's house on Tuesday the 21st | :43:53. | :44:01. | |
of January. My honourable friend the member for Bury North says he always | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
has his read your with him and I think we recognise that radio is a | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
very intimate medium. It really can speak to us and I know from friends | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
and family who have suffered and I know I when I have been very lonely | :44:15. | :44:19. | |
in my life, I have had the radio on. It makes us feel a bit safer and as | :44:20. | :44:27. | |
though we have other people there. Really valid points about radio as a | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
friend, certainly in the night. I know that people turn to the radio | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
the wake-up and switch it on. But also I know that many local radio | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
stations have regulars that phone in and many of these are lonely and | :44:43. | :44:47. | |
individual people that are finding some relationship building with the | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
radio station and they serve an excellent purpose progress. My | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
honourable friend with a history and broadcasting nose is only too well. | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
We talk about local radio. It has such an important role in the | :45:01. | :45:04. | |
community and is hyper local radio, I think it already does that. The | :45:05. | :45:11. | |
provisions in this Bill will allow a flourishing of hyper local radio, | :45:12. | :45:19. | |
because the point I am talking about loneliness and isolation, the point | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
is that mediums of technology are useful only if they actually lead to | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
face-to-face context, because as human beings we need the contact of | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
others just as much as we need food and water. This is the point of it. | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
It's not just about Facebook and Twitter, which we all talk about. | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
Radio has to have that, we need to be able to connect to people. If you | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
have a radio station broadcasting to a feud thousand people, those worked | :45:49. | :45:53. | |
risk of being very lonely and isolated, the old, the infirm, | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
people suffering from mental health problems, disabled, and they cannot | :46:00. | :46:04. | |
travel very far, the hearing about community events and businesses | :46:05. | :46:06. | |
which are very close to them, then it will be able to get to them and | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
that will be great advantage of that. There really is much to plot | :46:11. | :46:19. | |
in this Bill. I have some questions which I hope the minister will | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
respond to in the way of, how do these things work in practice? In | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
terms of, I know they are being attached to high buildings, because | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
my honourable friend keeps talking about high buildings, many of us | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
don't have high buildings in our constituencies. The other thing and | :46:41. | :46:48. | |
forgive me if I have missed something, but often when new things | :46:49. | :46:50. | |
are picked up any time, there are often worries about it. I do think | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
this Bill has such great potential to expand community radio, which | :46:57. | :47:04. | |
plays such an important role in helping to Nitties to build together | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
and to foster good relationships. I am thinking again as I have | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
mentioned, the things about Leland Festival radio which have really | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
done sterling work in our team in Italy and I hope that this Bill | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
would give it just those opportunities to fulfil a stream of | :47:21. | :47:28. | |
being a full-time radio station. Mr Deputy Speaker, it's an absolute | :47:29. | :47:31. | |
pleasure to follow on from my honourable friend and also I would | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
like to congratulate my honourable friend from Torbay for securing a | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
spot in the Chamber. I have to declare an interest, I used to write | :47:43. | :47:50. | |
songs in the 1980s. Which always cheers at the colleagues on my side | :47:51. | :47:54. | |
of the bench. This is a very serious issue that we are discussing today, | :47:55. | :48:02. | |
because... I shall give Ray to my honourable friend. Is my honourable | :48:03. | :48:08. | |
friend is still getting royalties from the 80s? Not correct that would | :48:09. | :48:17. | |
be telling. If you're going to name a question like that, you have to | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
name the chin that you're referring to. Digital radio. As this Bill | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
covers, affects areas of the UK that should really be honed in on from a | :48:28. | :48:34. | |
very, very long time ago. Before I alluded to my honourable friend from | :48:35. | :48:43. | |
Torbay about the previous Secretary of State for culture media and | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
sport, when he had an ambition to have digital radio take over from | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
analogue. As my honourable friend stated, this would be an optional | :48:57. | :49:03. | |
issue or a request from the broadcasting industry, but it is | :49:04. | :49:05. | |
something that must be taken seriously. If you think in my area, | :49:06. | :49:14. | |
we have a feud good radio stations in the area, but we do have the baby | :49:15. | :49:20. | |
radio, which on its website states there is no solution for them to | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
have digital radio at this moment in time, yet they do cover areas which | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
are quite low-lying in my constituency, leading all the way up | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
into the Lake District and all the way touching on the Scottish | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
Borders. It does a new website that if you want to find a coverage area, | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
click on the application. However, I do think with this option that my | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
honourable friend has put forward for the broadcasting industry to | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
consider, this would hope my local radio station in measurable way and | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
help the people in those communities to be kept in touch with what is | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
actually going on around them. Last year, about 12 months ago, we were | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
hit with the most horrendous floods we've ever seen. There was a power | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
cut. The only lifeline that we did have in the whole area as to what | :50:14. | :50:23. | |
was going on was our local B radio. I thank my honourable friend | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
forgiving way. I would like to reiterate today of all days how | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
important that last point is, because we have along the east coast | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
and particularly in Suffolk a real challenge today with the possibility | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
of flooding and as he says and as the Right honourable friend for | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
purple Valley has often said, when flooding comes, there is not much | :50:46. | :50:50. | |
warning. To have community radio is enabled to give more information to | :50:51. | :50:53. | |
the public is certainly a good thing, is it not? I do agree and I | :50:54. | :51:00. | |
do think my honourable friend for that very helpful intervention, | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
because that leads onto what I'm about to speak about next. What | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
happened was they also did as well and they were running a whole | :51:10. | :51:12. | |
operation of a laptop on the first floor. As my honourable friend did | :51:13. | :51:19. | |
allude to in his speech, laptops can come in very handy for this kind of | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
broadcasting. What are a problem at this moment in time, which has been | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
highlighted by my right honourable friend, is that the cost of this | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
could be prohibited, because it is quite costly to get these kinds of | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
licences, however, with demand, costs can be drives down. I hope | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
that the Minister will look on this proposal favourably, because we must | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
go forward with progression. If we don't, it is at our cost. We have | :51:57. | :52:05. | |
had the radio industry is subject to certain problems over the years, not | :52:06. | :52:10. | |
least not having this helped out in the first place. If you think about | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
what happened to my local radio station, if they had had digital | :52:15. | :52:23. | |
radio, the aerial areas that they broadcast to would have been better | :52:24. | :52:27. | |
informed as to what was actually going on with their localities. It | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
wasn't just my constituency that was affected, it was a constituency next | :52:33. | :52:37. | |
order of Lancaster. Also constituencies further up into | :52:38. | :52:43. | |
Carlisle. I do know that I had a meeting during these floods with the | :52:44. | :52:49. | |
Minister Stewart. Not many people knew that the minister was actually | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
running around the vicinity trying to sort out the problems and he was | :52:54. | :52:59. | |
working very hard. Purely and simply, because the communications | :53:00. | :53:02. | |
broke down in the area and he had a power cut in my vicinity that lasted | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
nearly two days. You can see, radio is a lifeline for these communities | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
and we should be looking to enhance the industry and not curtail it. I | :53:12. | :53:16. | |
do think that this measure that my honourable friend has done today is | :53:17. | :53:21. | |
a very welcome measure indeed. I do think that the larger broadcasters | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
such as the BBC, would also welcome this, because it would actually | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
drive the cost down as well. All the radio stations, I hope if they are | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
listening to this speech, I'm not being more favourable to one and the | :53:37. | :53:40. | |
other and I hope that have mentioned you all. I must a plug in for it | :53:41. | :53:46. | |
Beyond Radio. I'm sure they will be losing that in their jingles. | :53:47. | :53:55. | |
Digital radio is the future and it is for the right reason that the | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
honourable member for Ali when he was in the Secretary of State, he | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
wanted to push forward this particular project, but as yet we | :54:05. | :54:11. | |
have yet to see it. I would love to give way to my honourable friend. Q | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
refers to what the right Honourable member suggested at the time I think | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
when he was the Cabinet minister responsible for the area of policy. | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
Whilst this is not about that specific way, if ever there was the | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
move to digital, we need to make sure all three layers of radio are | :54:31. | :54:35. | |
represented. National, community, local. Might I pay homage to my | :54:36. | :54:44. | |
right honourable friend for researching this Bill thoroughly and | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
speaking for one hour without notes on this particular issue. I was in | :54:49. | :54:53. | |
the music industry once, it pains me to say I didn't know half of what my | :54:54. | :54:57. | |
honourable friend was saying. However, it's a big help to the | :54:58. | :55:00. | |
industry as a whole and ensure that they would welcome what he is trying | :55:01. | :55:06. | |
to do. With that, Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for your time. | :55:07. | :55:14. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm delighted to follow my honourable friend and it's | :55:15. | :55:23. | |
amazing what we discover about her colleagues during these debates and | :55:24. | :55:27. | |
I'm intrigued to find out some of those songs that have been written | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
by my honourable friend. Perhaps he might share that with those later. | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
Having spent very much of my life as a broadcaster and journalist with | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
many years involvement in radio stations of every kind, from | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
community to local to commercial and BBC national radio, I'm really | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
delighted to support my honourable friend from Torbay in bringing this | :55:52. | :55:55. | |
Bill and I congratulate him for bringing it forward, for all the | :55:56. | :55:58. | |
work that he has done and in particular for the very clear case | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
that he is made today. I think even those who don't understand very much | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
about the technicalities, even I don't understand a lot of those, he | :56:08. | :56:12. | |
has made it very clear. I must reiterate the comments made from my | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
right honourable friend that it is disappointing that the benches are | :56:16. | :56:20. | |
so empty on the Opposition side, particularly amongst our Scottish | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
colleagues, because I do believe that if we can bring this Bill | :56:24. | :56:27. | |
forward, it will help those of every mode areas where it is quite | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
difficult to get the correct signals. At the Welsh, I agree. | :56:31. | :56:40. | |
Sorry, the Welsh are here. Apologies, said. A Welsh present is | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
here. You are well represented compared to a Scottish colleagues. I | :56:48. | :56:49. | |
take that back. I'm a keen supporter of local media | :56:50. | :57:04. | |
including newspapers. That includes local radio stations. Anything that | :57:05. | :57:13. | |
can be done must be applauded. I understand that that will friend, I | :57:14. | :57:22. | |
am a fanatical radio nut. I go everywhere with my radio. We have a | :57:23. | :57:31. | |
radio in almost every room! You might think that is a bit sad. I | :57:32. | :57:38. | |
will give way. I thank a forgiving way. One of the affections I would | :57:39. | :57:52. | |
make is that I listened to the radio on my way from the constituency, | :57:53. | :57:55. | |
because I want to listen to the cricket and to the cat macro | :57:56. | :58:07. | |
archers. -- Archers. I could not be without my radio because of the | :58:08. | :58:15. | |
Archers. I listen to the same episode multiple times a day! I am a | :58:16. | :58:26. | |
big local radio fan as well. Like my honourable friend, as soon as I get | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
back to my constituency in my car, I switch on the local radio so I can | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
catch up instantly and what the news is there. Of course, the way we now | :58:38. | :58:47. | |
listen to radio is changing. TV has ordered one through a big | :58:48. | :58:55. | |
transition, and now so is radio. Statistics show that many households | :58:56. | :59:11. | |
in the UK already own a DAB radio. This year, terribly exciting, I got | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
a DAV system. -- DAB system. I have to put my glasses on to get | :59:20. | :59:48. | |
to the touch button thing. DAB systems are increasingly important | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
as features in cars. That is obviously where I listen to my local | :59:53. | :00:01. | |
radio a lot. In this new DAB world, I must reiterate for the | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
uninitiated, we're not talking about the dap fish. Dab are a wonderful | :00:07. | :00:19. | |
fish that are great to feed children and are very cheap. We are not | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
talking about them, we're talking about radio. I want to explain that | :00:23. | :00:32. | |
small radio stations are really important. This Bill will help them | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
have a better future, and for the better under resourced stations to | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
have a better future. They offer a very high delocalised news. This is | :00:43. | :00:47. | |
the news you do not get from elsewhere. You don't get that from | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
the National stations. You often don't get it from the regional | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
stations can, because they are covering bigger areas now. That is | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
really interesting. For example, in Taunton, we have just welcomed the | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
fact that the governorate has just announced Taunton as a garden town. | :01:05. | :01:10. | |
But what a derelict place for the public in Taunton to interact about | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
what they think of that. That was well covered on the local stations. | :01:18. | :01:21. | |
Also, what better place to carry out a poll on which day we should have | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
Somerset day. It was huge audience interaction across all the different | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
stations about what people thought about that. And they local | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
initiative called Art Taunton. It is trying to encourage culture and art | :01:39. | :01:45. | |
in Taunton. We need to up our offer of art and culture. Perhaps the | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
minister might take this on board, being in this particular area. He | :01:50. | :01:57. | |
may even do an interview on the radio. It is important. It is | :01:58. | :02:04. | |
important, as has been touched on by my honourable friend, who is just | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
leaving, in times of crisis. Local stations were invaluable in the | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
terrible time of flight in 2013 - 14, when huge areas of Somerset | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
flooded and it was the local radio that was the linchpin of | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
transmitting the news, of people phoning in and offering help, people | :02:28. | :02:29. | |
caught making where they should go and what they should do. It was | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
local radio that played a key role in that time. It is also really | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
important when it snows, for transferring information, but Italy | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
for the local schools. All of the local schools use the local radio to | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
tell people whether they are open or closed. Everybody turns on the radio | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
to find out. It is invaluable in times of emergency. That is | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
important. Also think of local guide you and you cannot help but think of | :03:00. | :03:01. | |
travel reports. You know, is this not where all about honourable | :03:02. | :03:09. | |
friends get travel information, about what is happening in rush | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
hour, whether to use that key road in Somerset, the A358. If one hears | :03:13. | :03:23. | |
that that road is log jammed, one void it. It is a marvellous service. | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
I hope we will never have to hear those messages again shortly | :03:29. | :03:30. | |
because, this week, I welcome the fact that the Secretary of State for | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
Transport has just reiterated his commitment to upgrading that road. | :03:36. | :03:39. | |
Hopefully, we will all start not hearing about that so much now local | :03:40. | :03:46. | |
radio. I will mention some of the excellent community radio stations | :03:47. | :03:53. | |
in my constituency. One is Tone FM. It is very good for its traffic | :03:54. | :04:02. | |
news. This station has an incredible audience of 22,000 people. That is | :04:03. | :04:06. | |
incredible for a small town community radio station. They are | :04:07. | :04:19. | |
operating on a shoestring. I used to due a regular gardening slot for | :04:20. | :04:23. | |
them. We had a lot of fun but also imparted a lot of knowledge and | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
information. I will never forget the time... Are usually took in | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
something for the audience to guess what we were talking about. I once | :04:33. | :04:35. | |
took in an elephant garlic. If the members have ever seen one of those, | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
it is a bit drastic thing to see and using cooking. Much guesswork went | :04:41. | :04:50. | |
on about my Jerusalem artichokes. We get a lot of interaction about what | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
is going on in Parliament, and people this into the pod casts, it | :04:56. | :04:58. | |
is a great way of disseminating information. All of the people that | :04:59. | :05:05. | |
work in this station, it would not run without them. Darren McCullum | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
puts a lot of hours into making sure it runs. Ten Radio is also | :05:11. | :05:24. | |
fantastic. With my honourable friend agree that these hyper local radio | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
stations, they could all... This Bill could be a substitute for the | :05:32. | :05:36. | |
sort of Facebook community pages which are grown up in many rural | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
areas but are not accessible to older people because they have to | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
look at them. This might be the perfect substitute for those or the | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
declining local newspaper is as well? She makes a valid point. It is | :05:48. | :06:01. | |
an invaluable service for local news and gossip. I enjoyed going there | :06:02. | :06:05. | |
before Christmas to give an update on my year in Parliament, and they | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
did a long interview and then did one is about cast as well. It is run | :06:10. | :06:22. | |
entirely by volunteers. They have to run the technical size of these -- | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
sides of these services. I particular wanted to mention the | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
story of Joseph Tucker. He is a wheelchair user. He speaks through a | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
computer-controlled gadget with his aye movements. He presents a show, | :06:41. | :06:51. | |
which is all about musicals, which is brilliant. What a fantastic | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
platform for Joe to engage with people and for them to engage with | :06:56. | :07:05. | |
Joe. It was on a small local commercial radio station that I | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
started, where many people from pirate radio had gone to work, like | :07:10. | :07:14. | |
Johnnie Walker, who is now on Radio 2. At that time, I had left | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
university and I started there for work experience. I worked there for | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
a whole year pretty but unpaid. I had three other jobs on the go to | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
fund myself. I divided a programme called country connections which are | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
broadcast live at 7am. It would all of my Saturday nights. I had to | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
drive all the way to Bristol early in the morning to broadcast the show | :07:43. | :07:46. | |
to the whole of Bristol. I'm sure nobody was listening to it because | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
it was so early and it was a very urban audience. It was a fantastic | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
grounding. It was where I learned all of my craft on editing, | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
producing and all of that. Without that, I am certain I would not go on | :08:03. | :08:07. | |
to produce farming today on Radio 4. That is where I did all of my | :08:08. | :08:13. | |
groundwork. Small local radio stations are still offering this | :08:14. | :08:17. | |
opportunity for young people. I would urge people to take it. It is | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
a fantastic grounding. The more we can do to help those those services | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
remain in existence and expand, all the better. That is what this Bill | :08:27. | :08:35. | |
will do. To go on, Tone and Ten radio are not on DAB. The cost is | :08:36. | :08:46. | |
too high and there is not sufficient capacity for stations like this. | :08:47. | :08:58. | |
The smaller local stations are very much aware that audiences are moving | :08:59. | :09:06. | |
over to digital, and all of them would very much, and in particular I | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
have talked to them about this, they would appreciate the opportunity to | :09:11. | :09:17. | |
work on digital as long as it is affordable. | :09:18. | :09:44. | |
They have demonstrated the software -based approach can be viable. Two | :09:45. | :09:52. | |
breeze radio does broadcast from the constituency of Taunton Deane. | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
Across the ten trial areas, 70 unique radio stations are being | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
carried. The majority of them are new DAV, and I believe a lot of | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
interesting work went on during the trial and lessons can be passed on. | :10:08. | :10:16. | |
I think it is an exciting opportunity which has opened up. It | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
is proven they could work and I hope this Bill will facilitate those | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
things going forward. To conclude, I am delighted to support this Bill | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
which will allow Ofcom flexibility on servicing small-scale radio | :10:31. | :10:33. | |
stations with multiplex licences in a much, much simpler and more | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
straightforward manner. This can benefit, and can only benefit local | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
radio stations in doing their work. The committee will benefit hugely | :10:45. | :10:50. | |
from that. If this Bill is passed, the opportunities could be endless. | :10:51. | :11:00. | |
Perhaps one may even be able to start up a radio station from my | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
garden shed! Welcomed the Bill and wish it all the best of luck. | :11:05. | :11:16. | |
Can I thank the Deputy Speaker. I haven't listened to the omnibus | :11:17. | :11:23. | |
edition. I look forward about on Sunday, though I have tried quite | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
hard. May I also congratulate the member for Paul Blake for producing | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
a very excellent Bill which I'm delighted to be able to support | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
later on today, should it be put to a vote. I will certainly declare an | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
interest, namely that my father, when he left the Navy, he | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
immediately became the head of outside broadcasting for a | :11:46. | :11:50. | |
television station which is the forerunner to ITV and all of that as | :11:51. | :11:53. | |
well. As many people may know, my brother | :11:54. | :12:03. | |
is the cricket correspondent for sky television and before he took up | :12:04. | :12:07. | |
that job somewhere the go now, he was a newsreader on Radio 4 where | :12:08. | :12:14. | |
repeatedly he went on radio at 1pm on Saturday lunchtime and said, BBC | :12:15. | :12:20. | |
radio news at one o'clock, a Russian submarine has been found south-east | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
off Swindon. It should have been Sweden. It's one of those things. I | :12:24. | :12:31. | |
am going to confess, in the 1980s there was the Conservative Party | :12:32. | :12:37. | |
agent and I worked for Angela Rumbold who was the Minister for | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
education and went to the Home Office. Before she became a | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
minister, she got very involved in the campaign to do with the company | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
called radio Jackie. It was a pirate radio station. It broadcasts | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
initially on a Sunday and then moved a bit further into broadcasting | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
during the course of the day. There was a real sense of the time that | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
the DTI didn't want to have more radio stations that were actually | :13:09. | :13:11. | |
being put forward at that time. It was very limited. The BBC, I think | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
by that time Capital Radio had come on board as well, but it was a | :13:18. | :13:24. | |
really important issue. This feels a groundhog Day to me. Indeed, I have | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
to confess, there were times when the DTI were so stringent that they | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
decided they were going to try and read some of these pirate radio | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
stations only tried to and did succeed. They succeeded in reading | :13:38. | :13:45. | |
radio Jackie. I was asked by my governor to make sure that he was | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
aware as to what was likely to end up happening and heated the | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
equipment away, rather than lose it. It seems to my mind that we have | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
moved an awful long way now with the advent of digital radio to make sure | :14:01. | :14:07. | |
that we can actually now provide a better service, but more | :14:08. | :14:11. | |
importantly, a greater service. More choice as far as radio is concerned | :14:12. | :14:15. | |
as well. I think that is something which every much welcome in this | :14:16. | :14:23. | |
country. Can I pay tribute, not only to my local BBC radio station and | :14:24. | :14:30. | |
the wonderful Gordon Sparks, who unfortunately hasn't been | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
commentating very much on Plymouth Argyle, which honourable members may | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
know, ended up drawing against Liverpool and we are very much | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
looking forward to what happens on Tuesday when the replay at home | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
Park. I understand tickets had been going incredibly well, too. It could | :14:47. | :14:52. | |
potentially add ?1 million to Plymouth Arguelles's Exchequer. Can | :14:53. | :14:58. | |
I also pay tribute to Simon Bates who has just given up being on radio | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
Devon. Every time she wanted to talk about my great campaign about how we | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
could make sure that hedgehogs become a protected species and one | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
wouldn't want to miss an opportunity during the course of an informal | :15:14. | :15:18. | |
debate like this in order to acknowledge him. Sadly, he has | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
decided to stand down. I would like to pay great tribute, because he was | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
a delight to end up being injured the guy and I thoroughly enjoyed | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
myself. Can I also paid tribute to radio Plymouth, which probably is | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
the best example of the local community radio station within the | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
city as a whole. It covers a whole series of issues and I think is very | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
good. Another great thing and I think it's important about having | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
community radios is that it can actually cover specific community | :15:48. | :15:51. | |
events which take place. In 2020, Plymouth will be commemorating and | :15:52. | :15:56. | |
has been named as the place where we will be commemorating Mayflower 400. | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
This is where the Mayflower left Plymouth Asturian a journey into | :16:02. | :16:07. | |
Torbay and other places as well. It founded the American colonies. We | :16:08. | :16:17. | |
need to make sure that there is good coverage of this, so that people | :16:18. | :16:24. | |
feel they are engaged. And we know how it is during Arscott or | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
Wimbledon, there are specific radio stations set up in order to cover | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
that and it seems to my mind that this is a useful opportunity whereby | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
local communities can promote the activities which they are going to | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
be talking about, but secondly, they can make sure that people in the | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
individual communities are actually going to be very much engaged. If | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
this is successful, can become another version of the Democrat | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
focus. I suspect I will have to ask the Minister, who I am delighted to | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
see in his place today, because he is a great cricket fan, too. He has | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
played cricket with me, too. That has been great fun, in India. We | :17:09. | :17:18. | |
ended up by having a great time, but is very good news, because I know | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
that he has in his own constituency, Newmarket, which has a good racing | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
events as well. I think there are specific ways that we can do this. | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
We can make sure that there are could be specific campaign issues. I | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
am acutely aware that the website is now, there are a number of community | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
websites, like FW 19 which I know about from the days when I was | :17:43. | :17:51. | |
younger. They have regular people who write in and put comments on it | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
as well. Some of the local community activities and I think that is | :17:57. | :17:59. | |
something which is very, very important. One question that I would | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
ask the Minister, to see make sure that when this is being developed, | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
I'm completely aware that this is about infrastructure, did he make | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
sure that there is actually going to be affordable licenses that local | :18:16. | :18:22. | |
people can afford. The would be nothing worse than for it to be too | :18:23. | :18:33. | |
expensive and prohibitive. Yes. The honourable member, I hope you will | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
be reassured that experience wear off, did its trousers that very | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
small operations did get going. Enabling to have this funny much | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
more permanent bases across the rest of the country. The cost of the | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
current multiplexes would exclude any operation. Thank you for that. | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
The other point that I would also make is that it is very important | :18:59. | :19:01. | |
that we develop an infrastructure that isn't going to be too expensive | :19:02. | :19:04. | |
as far as the communities are concerned, too. I'm acutely aware | :19:05. | :19:12. | |
and I will make a confession, I did some work on behalf of the mobile | :19:13. | :19:15. | |
phone operators and it seems to my mind that we still need, sadly on | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
the train going down to Paddington to Plymouth, we need to have much | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
better mobile phone coverage, because half the time when you go | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
down, you can't actually get on to the Internet or for that matter can | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
you end up taking telephone calls, because the mobile phone coverage | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
isn't particularly good. Why could it not be the local communities | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
could also opt to end up by pitting their stuff on the mobile phone mast | :19:43. | :19:50. | |
network, too. That I think is important. The final point I would | :19:51. | :19:54. | |
make is, could we have an assurance from the Minister that what we are | :19:55. | :19:57. | |
going to be able to do is to make sure that it could not end up that | :19:58. | :20:03. | |
these community radio stations cannot be abused by other political | :20:04. | :20:07. | |
parties and that actually it has got to be used to conform to the | :20:08. | :20:12. | |
representation of the People's act, whether has to be balanced, | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
especially during the course of elections, too. That is something | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
that I would be very nervous about if we ended up having a biased | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
reporting and I think one of the things that is really good, I | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
personally think, that the BBC isn't particularly biased and I think it's | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
very important that we do not give an opportunity for people who have | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
perhaps not necessarily agreed with everything to end up by using it in | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
order to be a campaign going in a party political manner against us. | :20:42. | :20:46. | |
Thank you very much indeed. This has been a pleasure and a delight and | :20:47. | :20:51. | |
can I say that this has been a fantastically informal, I would | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
predict to you, debate weather has been entertainment which I suspect | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
Abu braided summer of two. LAUGHTER | :20:58. | :21:04. | |
-- I suspect I have provided some of that, too. I would like to | :21:05. | :21:12. | |
congratulate my honourable friend, the member for Torbay for securing | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
the Bill today. It is an issue of great importance to both of us in | :21:18. | :21:21. | |
the Chamber today and hopefully many other members as well. I would also | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
like to add my name to the list of people who are archers fans and I | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
also have been known to listen to each episode three times. I must | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
visit on record, I no longer have the time to do that, but in the past | :21:36. | :21:44. | |
I have. Is my honourable friend aware that there is a wonderful | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
Archers and it kissed which is an organisation which believes that | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
isn't exactly a soap opera, but more if fly by documentary as well. They | :21:55. | :22:04. | |
have a lecturer from Sammy the cat everyday. Not like thank my | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
honourable friend for that intervention, but I'm not surprised. | :22:09. | :22:14. | |
The issue we are talking about today is of great importance to my | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
constituents. Especially those in the southern part of my | :22:20. | :22:26. | |
constituency. As you are aware, I represent error wash. They have a | :22:27. | :22:27. | |
community read your station. It is called Erewash Sounds. They | :22:28. | :22:55. | |
regretted in F community radio licence and were granted that on | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
Saturday the 6th of March 2010 from studios which no... Was an old | :23:01. | :23:08. | |
school, based in the community. It is a community interest Company. It | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
is not-for-profit, run by volunteers for the benefit of the people. | :23:15. | :23:22. | |
Running costs are covered by the advertising and sponsored it and | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
when they are able to secured by grants, donations and fundraising. | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
Community radio across the country faces certain issues that continue | :23:31. | :23:37. | |
to affect their sustainability and hopefully today we're talking about | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
one aspect that can really change the sustainability of the community | :23:42. | :23:49. | |
radio operators. I'm led to believe that the community order from 2004 | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
places restrictions on community radio. Limiting broadcast power | :23:55. | :23:59. | |
levels to quite low, stipulating that community radio can only credit | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
up to 50% of total to read can use to advertising and sponsorship. Some | :24:05. | :24:08. | |
local radio stations cannot even do that. They cannot sell any advertise | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
or sponsorships. Erewash Sounds is currently restricted by this 50% | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
rule. It has even greater problems. Erewash Sounds was allocated a power | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
allocation of just 25 watts 96.8 FM. This is just one point away from a | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
transmitter in Ashbourne to the west. These are commercial radio | :24:38. | :24:44. | |
stations that broadcast on 96.7 FM. It is quick difficult to get that | :24:45. | :24:54. | |
separation. 96.8 FM is also used by to BBC Wales Wealth language | :24:55. | :25:02. | |
service. It has 125 kilowatts power and is in some parts 250 kilowatts. | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
That is a transmitter located in South Wales. From Wunsch, Erewash | :25:07. | :25:12. | |
Sounds has continued to suffer from spurious and often intermittent | :25:13. | :25:20. | |
interference from the BBC's transmitter in Wales, the effects of | :25:21. | :25:26. | |
which can be severe, interrupting. I'm sure that people do not mind | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
hearing the Welsh language programme, but I'm afraid that in | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
Erewash, not many people may be able to understand what is being said. I | :25:38. | :25:46. | |
understand from the operator that this is even worse in fine weather | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
and yes, in Erewash we do have lots of fine weather. With the challenge | :25:52. | :26:02. | |
of frequency allocation, Erewash Sounds was told by off, comedy | :26:03. | :26:08. | |
broadcast regulator, that 96.8 FM was and I quote, the best frequency | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
they could offer. Now, that is really per. Erewash Sounds was also | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
informed by off, but 25 what's with the usual power level allocated to | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
commuter radio. Yet there is evidence that other community radio | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
stations have been allocated double the power of Erewash Sounds and some | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
have been allocated 100 kilowatts. You can see with the problems are to | :26:35. | :26:43. | |
build up. The BBC radio Wales service and the low-power, this | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
results in probably over half of my constituents being prohibited from | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
tuning into Erewash Sounds residence in low Newton struggled to tune into | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
Erewash Sounds added the southern part of the area that is the | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
problem, partly because we have a village on a hill between Folkestone | :27:03. | :27:09. | |
and Long Eaton. Some people probably can tune into Erewash Sounds, but | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
I'm afraid that once they get over the hell, people can't do that. | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
The power and the bandwidth is restricting the transmission of this | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
fantastic local community radio station. This hasn't stopped Erewash | :27:25. | :27:33. | |
Sound from promoting their radio station in the south of the borough, | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
even though people can't hear them. They live in hope that one day | :27:37. | :27:39. | |
things will change, hopefully through this Bill, and people | :27:40. | :27:53. | |
through the whole of error -- Erewash world be able to hear it. | :27:54. | :28:04. | |
I want to spend a little time explaining how Erewash Sound | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
contraries to the whole community across my constituency. They provide | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
the outside broadcast facilities at the Trinity Hospital -- community | :28:18. | :28:29. | |
hospital. Last summer, I was invited to judge the floats at Long Eaton | :28:30. | :28:37. | |
Carnival. I was so relieved to have a fellow judge. Where you are | :28:38. | :28:53. | |
judging fantastic floats, you don't want to let anyone down. They're | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
actively promoting and supporting the local hospice. They have also | :29:00. | :29:08. | |
recently committed even more to a business club to allow them to meet | :29:09. | :29:14. | |
in their premises so people involved can see what is involved in the | :29:15. | :29:20. | |
radio. They tried to reach out. Other honourable members have | :29:21. | :29:23. | |
alluded to the importance of community radio providing the | :29:24. | :29:25. | |
training ground for budding presenters. Erewash Sound has got an | :29:26. | :29:32. | |
academy which is open to local people, regardless of age or | :29:33. | :29:39. | |
experience. Mr Deputy Speaker, it seems completely wrong that Erewash | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
Sound supports the whole of my constituency really, really well and | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
yet a great number of my constituents just cannot enjoy the | :29:49. | :29:55. | |
pleasures of listening to the Trinity radio station. | :29:56. | :30:08. | |
David Allen will still be broadcasting now, he goes on until | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
1pm. On the most recent visit to the radio station, I had the leisure of | :30:15. | :30:17. | |
sitting within and being interviewed by him. Live on-air we had a good | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
chat and a bit of a phone in as well. It is a really interactive | :30:24. | :30:31. | |
radio station. David Allen's show will be followed by the afternoon | :30:32. | :30:34. | |
show, then the homeward bound and then the alternative show and then | :30:35. | :30:38. | |
the late show. For those insomniacs to monks asked, the night owls show | :30:39. | :30:48. | |
revise drug -- provides music throughout the night. I hope not to | :30:49. | :30:55. | |
listen to that because I like my night's sleep. In the parts of my | :30:56. | :31:02. | |
community that cannot receive the station, they have told Erewash | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
Sound that they want to listen to the radio station but they cannot. | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
They want the changes to be made that we are talking about today so | :31:11. | :31:20. | |
they can tune in. Back in 2015, I made reference to the fact that | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
people in Ilkeston think that the residents of Longleat and get | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
everything and vice versa. Usually, I say they are wrong because they | :31:30. | :31:36. | |
both get everything. In this case,, below Eaton residents are right. | :31:37. | :31:45. | |
They don't get Erewash Sound. This doesn't do anything to bust that | :31:46. | :31:58. | |
myth. In fact, the committee radio station was based on the fact it | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
would help ring the two towns together and get technology has | :32:02. | :32:03. | |
stopped them doing that. My discussions with Ofcom have | :32:04. | :32:29. | |
resulted in the conclusion that the affordable license is the only | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
option available for Erewash Sound to fulfil its goal of bringing | :32:35. | :32:38. | |
people together and broadcasting to the whole of Mike Scituate see. That | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
is why I am supporting the builder Dave -- the whole of my | :32:44. | :32:48. | |
constituency. We need to bring this in without delay so all of my | :32:49. | :32:53. | |
constituents can enjoy the sounds of Erewash Sound. I would like to thank | :32:54. | :32:59. | |
everyone at Erewash Sound for providing such great entertainment | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
and supporting the whole of the community through their committee | :33:04. | :33:05. | |
actions, even though they are not broadcasting throughout the whole of | :33:06. | :33:13. | |
the constituency. They do a fantastic job, all voluntary, but | :33:14. | :33:16. | |
the people in Long Eaton want this to go through as quickly as possible | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
so they can continue to enjoy the benefits seem in Ilkeston. | :33:21. | :33:29. | |
I'd like to start by saying it is a pleasure to follow my honourable | :33:30. | :33:36. | |
friend, and she dubbed about -- talked with so much passion about | :33:37. | :33:40. | |
her local radio station. She is a good advocate for all things good | :33:41. | :33:44. | |
about her constituency. It is a pleasure to speak in today's debate. | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
I congratulate my honourable friend for bringing this Bill before the | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
House. I do feel I should shed a level light on the reference made | :33:55. | :34:01. | |
earlier in the debate, in the member's hard work and determination | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
during his slot for this important Bill today. Reference has been made | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
to the sleepover at the House of Commons to secure Bill slots, a | :34:10. | :34:13. | |
well-known practice for those of us who are determined to try out best | :34:14. | :34:18. | |
to get legislation on the statute book. I will say they were number of | :34:19. | :34:27. | |
us there that night. There was no DAB radio, but we did have Big Ben | :34:28. | :34:31. | |
chiming throughout the night. I will leave it at that. Moving back to the | :34:32. | :34:39. | |
Bill, this is an important point. It is very technical in parts, but it | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
is important and much needed. It will bring and create a lighter | :34:44. | :34:56. | |
touch regime. Before I move on, during my research, I was pleased to | :34:57. | :35:02. | |
hear my honourable friend, the motherboard want and even make a | :35:03. | :35:12. | |
reference to the word dab. We did find out that the term DAB does | :35:13. | :35:26. | |
refer to Digital audio broadcast, not the dance move, dab, where you | :35:27. | :35:35. | |
look into your elbow as if you were sneezing. I will not be doing that | :35:36. | :35:41. | |
today. Currently, there are around 250 committee radio stations and 200 | :35:42. | :35:48. | |
smaller stations transmitting on FM who do not have the opportunity to | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
broadcast on digital radio. Local to my home constituency, there are | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
Amber Radio and other local radio stations in the Birmingham West | :36:01. | :36:03. | |
Midlands area. If this Bill does proceed through this place and does | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
get onto the statute book, more committee stations at for local | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
stations will be encouraged to start. The reasons for those not | :36:12. | :36:21. | |
able to broadcast are twofold. There is insufficient bandwidth on the | :36:22. | :36:35. | |
multiplex. A number of DAB radio stations are trusted on a single | :36:36. | :36:40. | |
frequency and given to a geographical area. This is more | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
efficient than FM, AM and other analog methods. The second is the | :36:44. | :36:48. | |
prohibitive cost of broadcasting and these existing DAB networks. It is | :36:49. | :36:59. | |
currently transmitted by three existing multiplexes. There are 58 | :37:00. | :37:08. | |
local commercial DAB multiplexes covering county sized areas. The | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
cost broadcasting on such a multiplex is quite large. These | :37:13. | :37:17. | |
multiplexes have a limited capacity and can only carry a certain number | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
of stations, meaning the biggest county or countrywide stations can | :37:22. | :37:24. | |
afford to broadcast while smaller committee stations, which serve a | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
smaller area, I priced out of broadcasting on the multiplex. We | :37:30. | :37:34. | |
have heard a lot today about the Ofcom work and the trials they have | :37:35. | :37:39. | |
been doing. This Bill seeks to address the issue of capacity by | :37:40. | :37:43. | |
enabling Ofcom to modify the various procedures, procedures and | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
conditions connected to the awarding of licenses so more community | :37:51. | :37:53. | |
stations can broadcast on small-scale DAB multiplexes. Surely, | :37:54. | :37:58. | |
this must be a good thing for them as and all other constituents. Mr | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
Deputy Speaker, for several years now, the Government has been | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
discussing the digital radio switchover. I was pleased to hear my | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
honourable friend make reference to this earlier today. Much like the | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
digital television switchover in 2012, this switchover will see | :38:22. | :38:23. | |
broadcasts move from analogue but wants to digital. For this to | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
happen, criteria would need be met before starting any process of | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
digital switchover. I was pleased to hear my right honourable friend | :38:35. | :38:37. | |
assure us today that this Bill is all about choice and opportunity. | :38:38. | :38:48. | |
Will we honourable man to give way? I thank the honourable member for | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
giving way. Which she agreed that the focus is on giving an option for | :38:53. | :38:59. | |
committee stations to go on to DAB, nobody will be forced to go off FM. | :39:00. | :39:06. | |
What this Bill does is gives an option for the third tier of | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
community radio to go on if it wants to, but if they want to stay on the | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
current analogue stations, there is nothing to force them to do so. I am | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
grateful again for my honourable friend for giving us all that | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
reassurance that is very welcome today. There are many reasons why | :39:23. | :39:33. | |
the DAB is vital. The first is choice, which he has just reassured | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
us again on. The variety and quantity of stations available is | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
the main motivation to use DAB. There are huge number available, we | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
have heard many examples today. Stations playing jazz music all day, | :39:47. | :39:54. | |
children's stations, religious stations, through to those that only | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
play heavy metal. The FM spectrum only has limited space and is | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
currently very crowded. DAB provides a greater space, stations and more | :40:05. | :40:10. | |
choice for communities. And for space full local communities as | :40:11. | :40:15. | |
well. There are double transition fees and the to won and analogue | :40:16. | :40:31. | |
stations. Digital radio offers the possibility to develop content and | :40:32. | :40:33. | |
innovation much better than analogue dials. These add scrolling text or | :40:34. | :40:41. | |
slide shows, and adds the ability to pause and record live radio as many | :40:42. | :40:44. | |
people have become expecting that as a normal. We have heard earlier that | :40:45. | :40:54. | |
reception which is currently far from perfect, often described as a | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
cliff edge. You may know yourself, you either have a perfect signal and | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
reception or absolutely nothing at all. I'm hoping that you, Mr Debbie | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
did speak, are the same wavelength as me today! In Chorley FM, we get | :41:10. | :41:19. | |
perfect wavelength! This contrasts with FM which becomes slightly fuzzy | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
as you begin to lose the signal. There are possible options to deal | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
with this, but much like FM there is a limit to how many stations can be | :41:28. | :41:32. | |
broadcast from a single multiplex. This limit is much higher than on | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
FM. As a multiplex fills up, and competition increases, naturally the | :41:40. | :41:41. | |
cost of broadcasting from that multiplex rises. This price is local | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
stations out of broadcasting and the multiplex. Another reason why this | :41:48. | :41:49. | |
Bill is so important. The industry has already made some | :41:50. | :42:00. | |
developments increasing capacity on the DAV stations. This reduces the | :42:01. | :42:04. | |
transmission costs and enables more stations to be accommodated within a | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
multiplex. Another more efficient way of increasing DAV capacity is as | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
which to be a B+. That is to three times more efficient. Some of the | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
trialists in the off, trial were allowed to start broadcasting on DAV | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
and it will be interesting to see what the Minister has the today. And | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
I want comments the importance of community radio and why it matters | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
community radio is live and kicking, we have heard that today. For these | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
stations to really grow, there needs to be the opportunity and space for | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
them to broadcast on small-scale, local multiplexes covering the local | :42:50. | :42:57. | |
areas that they represent. I am reminded of my own background, | :42:58. | :43:04. | |
coming from a local area, the deals radio was reporting on bad weather, | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
localised road conditions each year of the bad weather forecast today, | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
it's not just the rain and floods, but also the heavy snowfall across | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
the country. I am sure that those local radio stations are playing a | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
vital part of our constituents and our local communities. The British | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
forces broadcasting service is another fantastic example of the | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
true community radio station. I am going to wind up now, Mr Deputy | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
Speaker, because I know the time is marching on and there are others who | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
still would like to speak today. I would like to say that at the heart | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
of this Bill, I think we have an opportunity not just help local | :43:43. | :43:50. | |
radio stations access these local multiplexes, but making real | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
difference to our local communities. Those local communities that we all | :43:54. | :43:56. | |
fight so hard to represent in this place. Some have local radio | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
stations, some do not. For some, I would like to think that this Bill | :44:03. | :44:06. | |
brings about the opportunity for more local radio, more chance to | :44:07. | :44:11. | |
broadcast, more chance to communicate and particularly at a | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
time when there is a much said about the need for greater social | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
cohesion, the need for communities to come together, particularly | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
post-Brexit. I think this is a perfect opportunity we can all come | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
together make a difference. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is my | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
great pleasure to follow my honourable friend the member for all | :44:35. | :44:40. | |
church. I would like to start my remarks by congratulating my | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
honourable friend, the member for currently in bringing this Bill | :44:44. | :44:48. | |
beyond the house. He is proving himself to be tenacious campaign, | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
always stands up for his constituents and is an impressive | :44:53. | :44:55. | |
Commons performer in my mind. I think we saw that at the side of | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
this debate, speaking for nearly one hour and taking all the things | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
thrown at him and speaking with great elegance. I am not surprised | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
at all that he signed a night in his office queueing to get this Bill on | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
the order paper and the four hours in this House, so I congratulate him | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
for those efforts on behalf of his constituency. You tend to know that | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
you are in a pretty good place on these bills when the honourable | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
member for Shipley isn't here. There has to be and we are seeing | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
demonstrated, very broad support for this Bill and a couple of words that | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
my honourable friend the member for Shipley regularly uses when he | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
speaks on a Friday is one of worthy sentiment and I think there is a lot | :45:39. | :45:42. | |
of worthy sentiment in this Bill, because this is all about community, | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
local services, communication with local people in local areas and I | :45:49. | :45:52. | |
believe the objectives that underpin this Bill most certainly constitute | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
worthy sentiment. I just want to start that by recognising in my | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
pride of the country, we are very well serviced by our local media | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
outlets. When it comes to radio, we have BBC radio Northampton, we also | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
have connect FM, all of which provided brilliant local services | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
have different leashes and dissonances. We also have good | :46:20. | :46:26. | |
coverage with television would look east that provided good local news | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
service and we have our newspapers. All of those come together in a | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
different way to really contribute to local north Northamptonshire in | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
life. As members from the house will appreciate, those different outlets | :46:43. | :46:45. | |
have different resources available to them. Some of them are much | :46:46. | :46:48. | |
better resourced than others. I don't think we should forget that | :46:49. | :46:53. | |
community radio is very dependent upon volunteers who put an off a lot | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
of time and effort into providing the services on behalf of the | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
community where they are based. It is hardly surprising that currently | :47:01. | :47:08. | |
around 200 small commercial radio stations and 244 community radio | :47:09. | :47:11. | |
stations do not have the opportunity to broadcast and jewellery do you | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
only realities around us are very striking. I think the rationale | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
behind this Bill is exceptionally logical, because there's not enough | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
capacity on the DA be multiplexes available currently, particularly in | :47:25. | :47:30. | |
urban areas. The cost of carriage on networks is too high for some local | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
stations. That is particularly pertinent in north Northamptonshire. | :47:36. | :47:39. | |
The area of the multiplex coverage provided by county level DA be | :47:40. | :47:47. | |
multiplex is too large computed the smaller transmission areas. The | :47:48. | :47:50. | |
license of 12 years is not appropriate for all broadcasters. I | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
will comment that later. I also think we have to recognise that we | :47:54. | :48:03. | |
need to move with the times. Many small radio broadcasters broadcast | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
online, but they need a better option. By the end of 2017, early | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
2018, 50% of radio listening will be on a digital platform, which is | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
hardly surprising in a digital age. 60% of UK homes have at least one | :48:20. | :48:26. | |
DAB radio. That will have increased over the Christmas period with many | :48:27. | :48:32. | |
people being given one as a gift. My honourable friend alluded to her own | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
household situation and the digital radio she has received at various. | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
That is the context that we, this debate from an one thing that my | :48:41. | :48:46. | |
honourable friend the member for Torbay and I can sometimes be | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
accused of is chuntering from a sedentary position and I can tell | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
you that that happens when we believe that members on all sides | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
are complaining about problems, but not really bringing any solutions | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
for red to address and I have to say that as frustrated as on a somewhat | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
regular basis. That is why this Bill has a particular strength I would | :49:09. | :49:15. | |
maintain. The DC MS funded trials between 2014 and two dozen 16 have | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
proven that this technology works. It proves this is a viable | :49:22. | :49:25. | |
opportunity, this is something that could be ruled out, because we have | :49:26. | :49:29. | |
seen through the ten pilots and we have seen in this library briefing a | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
real acknowledgement of the successors been hard with those | :49:34. | :49:36. | |
pilots. Not only have we identified a challenge and a problem, but we | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
are also in a position where we have something to help rectify some of | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
those challenges that is ready-made, ready available and I can be ruled | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
out of we move forward on that basis. I think that is very welcome | :49:51. | :49:57. | |
in its own right. Sometimes one of the criticisms that can be made of | :49:58. | :50:00. | |
this House is that debates that we have here are sometimes a little | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
abstract and what I would like to do in the back end of my remarks as set | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
out the local context and exactly where we sit in my part of the | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
country in relation to this issue. As I say, we are very well serviced | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
by two local community radio stations, Collect F M and Corby | :50:22. | :50:29. | |
radio. I've made part of contact with both of the review stations ask | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
what their take on this Bill is. I have to mess they are any particular | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
challenges or areas of improvement. I would like to reflect on the | :50:38. | :50:41. | |
comments I have had back from that. They had been in touch and said that | :50:42. | :50:48. | |
Connect FM is on DAB radio currently and they believe it is the way for | :50:49. | :50:51. | |
written to the decision to invest in it. We currently broadcast on DA be | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
across Northamptonshire. It gives smaller broadcasters like connect FM | :50:59. | :51:04. | |
who previously only covered part of the county the ability to broadcast | :51:05. | :51:09. | |
on a countywide basis. This is vital to ensure financial stability that | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
broadcasters like as required. I think level playing field is | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
important here. Previously only enjoyed by a limited number of | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
commercial broadcasters and the BBC. The cost involved in broadcasting on | :51:24. | :51:26. | |
DA BR currently I watch only high when compared to the financial | :51:27. | :51:33. | |
return. We have had to negotiate heavily with the sole DAB supplier | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
to be able to broadcast on the platform and even then can only | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
afford a low, bit rate, Mono signal. Stereos beyond our reach currently. | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
We have been keeping a close eye on small-scale DAB and it would be of | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
interest to us. Current DAB costs are excessive, so anything that can | :51:54. | :51:56. | |
be done to drive those costs down, was at the same time offering more | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
listener choice has to be considered. We support the Bill at | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
its aim is to achieve that and also bring forward a switchover date. I | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
hope some of those issues the minister could remark on in his | :52:10. | :52:12. | |
closing remarks and also we could get into the nitty-gritty as part of | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
any future Bill put committee that I would be delighted to serve on to | :52:17. | :52:21. | |
make sure that we get this right for all of different providers. I'll is | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
just want to touch in a situation with regards to Corby radio who | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
first started broadcasting in the 5th of December 2009 is a full time | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
community radio station. It's incredibly strong on local issues, | :52:36. | :52:39. | |
has a news output is well combined with popular music for all tastes. | :52:40. | :52:45. | |
It does regular studio programming, has won a special live broadcast | :52:46. | :52:49. | |
from the community of ten such as the carnival, the Highland | :52:50. | :52:53. | |
gathering, which is very popular in the town. The opening of the Corby | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
cube and the arrival of the Olympic torch in Corby. These are all | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
pivotal moments in the history of the town which had been captured in | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
local media output. I don't think without it would have been done in | :53:07. | :53:12. | |
the past and will not happen as successfully in the future. We need | :53:13. | :53:15. | |
to remember the enormous contribution that makes. This is | :53:16. | :53:22. | |
local coverage by Corby people Forum Corby people all the way through and | :53:23. | :53:27. | |
over the summer I took part in the listener takeover, where went in for | :53:28. | :53:31. | |
an hour and they basically had a desert island discs show where I was | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
able to get my rundown of my favourite songs. I thoroughly | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
enjoyed it. I hope the listeners at home thoroughly enjoyed it. I hope a | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
crazy few pounds to contribute to the radio station and I was just one | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
of many people who took part in those initiatives throughout the | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
summer months. Werther songs they once written by the member for more, | :53:54. | :54:01. | |
and Lonsdale's thank you for that intervention. Shamefully, I have to | :54:02. | :54:04. | |
say that I'm not aware of any of the songs that are honourable friend | :54:05. | :54:12. | |
published. I was disappointed. I was disappointed he didn't set out in | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
greater detail exactly what those songs were so that we could all go | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
and look them up over the weekend. Perhaps we could have another show | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
on Corby radio that goes through all of Dave Morris's greatest hits. | :54:25. | :54:33. | |
Currently, the station does not transmit on DA be, it is only on F M | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
to the borough of Corby and the surrounding villages. I know that | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
when I head back at the end of the week, when it begins to come in | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
range of my car radio that I'm nearly home. Corby radio is a | :54:45. | :54:52. | |
community station. It has been issued a five-year community radio | :54:53. | :54:55. | |
licence by off, which must be reviewed every five years. They | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
would be very interested in being able to transmit on DA be. They | :55:02. | :55:09. | |
cited back to me the evidence that I alluded to earlier. In the UK, more | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
and more people are turning to digital radio and it is estimated | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
that by the end of 2017, 50% of radio listening will be on the | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
digital platform. The altimeter really set out that situation is | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
part of this debate, because it is an important fact of the matter. The | :55:28. | :55:32. | |
also mentioned to me that Norway has just started to phase out FM and | :55:33. | :55:36. | |
that by the end of 2017, the whole country will be digital radio only. | :55:37. | :55:42. | |
That's a global trend. We have heard many degrees the Government wanting | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
to keep up and be at the front of the global race and I think on this | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
issue we should want to be doing exactly that, too. They would be | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
very interested in progressing the Bill. They are fully supportive of | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
it and as a local MP, I think it's important I put that on the record | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
and make sure we get this Bill through on its second reading and | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
that is why I'm pleased to be here today. I just want to move towards | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
the end of my remarks now, because this really does matter. Corby radio | :56:10. | :56:20. | |
does provide such an important local service. It promotes excellent local | :56:21. | :56:25. | |
community groups, Costner 's, fundraising efforts that other video | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
providers simply aren't in a position to advertise in the same | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
way. It provides that topical local news. As other members have alluded | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
to, these stations provide important local weather updates that are | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
crucial for people in the news output that comes from the small | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
local radio stations, in my experience, is completely impartial | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
and are simply often a case of presenting the facts and letting | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
people know what is going on. It also provides, this is a point | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
hasn't he picked up in this debate, a platform for local sports clubs to | :57:01. | :57:06. | |
get across future fixture information, to get across reporters | :57:07. | :57:07. | |
about how particular People are interested in the local | :57:08. | :57:20. | |
clubs and local teams. It is important they have that platform | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
available to try to encourage more people to come along to the ground | :57:25. | :57:27. | |
is on a Saturday afternoon, for example. Will he give way? Of | :57:28. | :57:33. | |
course. I thank him for giving way. He makes an excellent point about | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
the value of community radio. I'm sure, like with our own radio | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
Suffolk, you hear as we get towards the weekend in the summer about the | :57:44. | :57:50. | |
fates you here. It really does show the importance and the vitality of | :57:51. | :57:58. | |
keeping our local stations. This Bill will help this. I'm sure he | :57:59. | :58:06. | |
would agree. I completely sharing those | :58:07. | :58:11. | |
sentiments. In Bury St Edmunds, there is an awful lot of killing the | :58:12. | :58:17. | |
work that goes on that would not get the hearing it gets if it were not | :58:18. | :58:24. | |
for local radio. I was interested in what the member for South rouble | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
said about loneliness. It is clear that there is a big role for local | :58:30. | :58:36. | |
radio to play, particularly in isolated communities where people | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
are not necessarily able to get urban to urban centres and not able | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
to get for various reasons. This service keeps them connected to the | :58:48. | :58:50. | |
local community and allows them to bring in as part of the feedback | :58:51. | :58:56. | |
programmes that are held. It gives people that confidence that there | :58:57. | :59:00. | |
are things going on around them. There is an avenue of support as | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
well. Those are welcome. I commend her for the work she is doing on | :59:04. | :59:08. | |
this issue of loneliness. I don't underestimate as a local MP, and it | :59:09. | :59:15. | |
is a little bit lonely over and the opposition benches. I commend the | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
Shadow ministers for taking part in this debate today. I don't | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
underestimate the value of community radio in my local constituency. Not | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
only do people speak warmly about it, but I spend a lot of time | :59:30. | :59:33. | |
knocking on doors. Part of my job that I enjoy most is knocking on | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
doors, finding out what matters most to people as part of that campaign. | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
One of the things that strikes me on a regular basis is the number of | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
stickers in people's Windows for Connect FM and also for Corby Radio. | :59:50. | :59:55. | |
It shows that people are switched on to their kill unity radio services, | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
they hugely supported. They put a sticker in their window, which shows | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
evidently the value that people place on those services. So I | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
believe, in conclusion that this Bill presents a way forward to | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
secure the future of community radio services. There is no compulsion | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
about this, as the honourable men before Torbay has been clear about, | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
this provides another opportunity for community radio stations to be | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
able to secure their future in the way that works best for them. I | :00:28. | :00:30. | |
commend that and I very much hope that this Bill will make progress | :00:31. | :00:37. | |
today. We had a lot today about local | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
amenity radio and I want to endorse a lot of that. I would blog about | :00:41. | :00:56. | |
the future of DAB radio. I will state the matter of interest, I am | :00:57. | :01:04. | |
the leader of the all-party committee on this. We talk about the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
motorbikes is that we have. We do have the national multiplexes, but | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
even their coverage is not great. But it is the future of radio. There | :01:14. | :01:17. | |
will come a day were we switch over from analogue to digital, and that | :01:18. | :01:28. | |
... As soon as that comes, the letter. We need to secure the future | :01:29. | :01:35. | |
of our local radio stations. As has been eloquently laid out today, the | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
small local radio stations, and it has been a great opportunity for us | :01:41. | :01:46. | |
to wax lyrical about how own local radio stations, and I intend to be | :01:47. | :01:53. | |
no different! I will talk about my own constituency radio station. My | :01:54. | :01:58. | |
constituency covers 200 square miles. Signals are problem, it has | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
many hills. Because of where we are, we did not identified Radio | :02:05. | :02:15. | |
Manchester, Radio Sheffield and so on. Our local station provides a | :02:16. | :02:24. | |
bespoke service for our area. The way things are, it is beyond the | :02:25. | :02:32. | |
finances of small, independent community commercial radio stations | :02:33. | :02:39. | |
to go into digital. It is too expensive, too costly and too | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
difficult. This Bill is an excellent piece of legislation and the sooner | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
we get it through, the better. What it does, as has been laid out by my | :02:48. | :02:52. | |
honourable friend from Torbay, it places a framework whereby the likes | :02:53. | :03:09. | |
of High Peak Radio can get onto DAB. I wish to remind my oral friend that | :03:10. | :03:15. | |
I was saying that... I have moved places. I was referring to the oral | :03:16. | :03:22. | |
member for Sedgefield which was some years ago. We need to allow the | :03:23. | :03:34. | |
likes of High Peak macro Radio to move into the digital age. Without | :03:35. | :03:46. | |
the costs that prevent such a conversion. I look at what High Peak | :03:47. | :03:56. | |
Radio have done for the community in the years they have been | :03:57. | :03:58. | |
broadcasting. They benefit so many aspects. We talk about community and | :03:59. | :04:03. | |
charities and we have things like Lighthouse Hospice, where High Peak | :04:04. | :04:12. | |
radio are supporter of that charity. If you take part in an event at High | :04:13. | :04:16. | |
Peak, I have walked all the way around, I have played golf, I have | :04:17. | :04:25. | |
done everything for charity. High Peak Radio have facilitated that and | :04:26. | :04:33. | |
got the word out. One of the first charity walks I did, one walked | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
around the boundary of the constituency, I was walking out of | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
Buxton and a car pulled up. People. Andy Hope and his window and said, | :04:43. | :04:47. | |
there is a tenner. I just heard on High Peak Radio that you are walking | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
the boundary of the constituency for that charity of the time. I heard on | :04:53. | :04:58. | |
the radio, here is ten quid. That went to the charity. That is an | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
isolated incident of how the radio station helped supports only people | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
doing such good work for the charities. They cannot afford an | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
advert on the big radio stations or on television. The local radio | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
station encouraged that support. It in turn promotes amenity cohesion. | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
We talk about cohesion in the amenity in this place and this is a | :05:24. | :05:28. | |
great way of doing it. -- promotes commune at the code lesion. | :05:29. | :05:36. | |
People say that people don't listen to the radio any more, but in High | :05:37. | :05:45. | |
Peak they do. There is the music but they get the local news and it makes | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
them feel part of their local community. Sometimes these are | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
elderly people who could not get out as much as they want to. They know | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
what is going on in their town and that area. They know that on | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
Christmas Day, there was an organisation that it's a Christmas | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
pledge for people. It is a great way for creating this code lesion and | :06:11. | :06:12. | |
dealing with the social isolation that we in this place try to find | :06:13. | :06:21. | |
ways to deal with. I can assure you it is probably pretty snowy in the | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
High Peak. Buxton is one of the highest towns, but have been highest | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
pub in England, which will be covered in snow. With High Peak | :06:33. | :06:41. | |
Radio, they can... If you put on your regional radio station, you | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
will only hear about Buxton once or twice a year. You care about the | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
rows that are often blocked with traffic. This time of year, snow is | :06:52. | :06:55. | |
a problem and those roads that many other rows. If you are looking to | :06:56. | :06:58. | |
get from Glossop to Buxton, you would not get that on BBC Radio | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
news, but you would get it on High Peak macro radio. The downside is | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
that Jamie Douglas cannot get to work today, so Mike sojourns in | :07:13. | :07:27. | |
office is closed. -- my constituency office is closed. There is traffic | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
news going on all the time. My friend from Corby, he talked about | :07:34. | :07:36. | |
sport and I was glad he mentioned that. I wanted to mention it first | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
but he beat me to it! We have football, cricket, rugby, lots of | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
sports teams in the High Peak. With Will he give way? My friend with the | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
hedgehogs is back. Certainly. He may recall that he organised a game of | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
cricket up in Burton which I was delighted to play in. It was a great | :08:00. | :08:09. | |
game. It was actually Buxton! It is the only example where a day's | :08:10. | :08:17. | |
cricket was lost due to snow. We organised a charity cricket game. | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
The Parliamentary cricket team played the Emmerdale farm 11. He | :08:21. | :08:30. | |
drove about 100 miles to play. He acquitted himself excellently. High | :08:31. | :08:38. | |
Peak Radio broadcast from the ground and we raised about ?10,000 for the | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
air ambulance. We could not have done that with such excess without | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
the backing of our local radio station. They introduced the | :08:47. | :08:51. | |
coverage. As a return to the local football teams, we have Buxton, | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
where they often broadcast the game live if it is a big match. Glossop | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
North end, who have been to the final twice recently. That is a huge | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
event for the High Peak but is encouraged by High Peak Radio. They | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
commentate on the game, live from Wembley. High Peak Radio how | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
broadcast from inside this building. And I was elected to this place in | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
2010, they broadcast from the Central Lobby. It was a fantastic | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
thing because people in the High Peak feel connected not just with | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
myself but each other. Those who could not get to Wembley to watch | :09:30. | :09:33. | |
Glossop in the final, they could tune into the radio station and feel | :09:34. | :09:39. | |
part of it. You will find no greater supporter of local radio in this | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
place than myself. That is white I take an active role in the all-party | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
group. They also support local businesses. I ran on for many years, | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
as many colleagues in here have. You can't afford to advertise on | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
television or BBC Radio Manchester, but there is an opportunity for | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
small businesses, the small business or trade, a garage, a plumber, they | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
give them an opportunity to advertise in the local area. An area | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
they can serve efficiently, quickly and more often than not at a lower | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
price than the national companies. He is talking about the fact that | :10:18. | :10:23. | |
people can advertise on these. Has he ever can sit it advertising for | :10:24. | :10:30. | |
his own election on the local radio? I have considered advertising and | :10:31. | :10:35. | |
many times. I have had my name is on buses and things like that, although | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
people did not backfire. People always said, I always said you look | :10:41. | :10:45. | |
like the back of the bus, now you are on one! These radio stations are | :10:46. | :10:51. | |
politically neutral. They will broadcast what I have to say, from | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
my perspective as a member of Parliament or when I was eight | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
candidate, or the Labour candidate, the Lib Dem candidate, whoever it | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
is. They are completely neutral. That is one of the advantages, | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
features of local radio. They do the broadcast and they are by the local | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
people for the local people. They do not have a political edge. That is | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
why a head not considered advertising politically on the | :11:19. | :11:24. | |
radio, because that would spoil the essence of the local radio. I will | :11:25. | :11:30. | |
give way. I have enjoyed the remarks he has been making. He will be aware | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
that the broadcast rules around advertising for political parties | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
would apply to these licenses as they do to larger scale ones as | :11:41. | :11:41. | |
well. Yes, and it must remain so. If we can give them this option and | :11:42. | :12:02. | |
the sooner it can be on the statute book, the better. They all have | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
their own programmes. Right honourable friend from Corby has | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
been on Desert Island Discs. My radio doesn't do that. They do High | :12:11. | :12:17. | |
Peak insiders. I am a great supporter of High Peak radio and | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
generally local radio. We need to give them every chance and every | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
encouragement to survive and flourish by doing this, by getting | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
this onto the statute book, they can get onto digital age and get the | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
help they need. I am delighted to see this bill here today and the | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
sooner we can get it through, the better. And the wider subject of | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
radio, I would give a gentle nudge to my honourable friend, the | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
minister, who is looking avidly and somewhat now startled, can we please | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
catch up with this radio deregulation consultation because it | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
has been talked about for quite some time. He is looking at his | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
officials, as am I, everyone is nodding, so hopefully we can achieve | :13:03. | :13:05. | |
something now. Thank you very much for bringing this bill forward. | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
Hopefully it will be on the statute book as soon as possible and can be | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
broadcast on High Peak radio as the news very soon. Thank you, Madam | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
Deputy Speaker. Can I congratulate the honourable member for Torbay on | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
his bill. The broadcasting Bill is intended to allow Ofcom a lighter | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
touch listening regime in relation to small scale digital radio | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
broadcasting. This comes following a two-year trial run by Ofcom and | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
funded by the CMS. As you may know, there are two categories of digital | :13:48. | :13:52. | |
radio multiplex under the Digital broadcasting act 1996. These are | :13:53. | :14:00. | |
national and local coverage, where local coverage is roughly county | :14:01. | :14:05. | |
sized. This bill would allow for a size which is no more than 40% the | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
size of the current services. The intention is to encourage the spread | :14:12. | :14:21. | |
of DAB to smaller scale radio stations. Often these county sized | :14:22. | :14:28. | |
DAB services are too expensive and have too large a range for community | :14:29. | :14:34. | |
services. As a result, and in commendation with other such | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
factors, there are up to 400 local and community stations which are not | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
carried on DAB but rather on analogue services, AM or FM. | :14:44. | :14:48. | |
Small-scale DAB would indeed provide a cost-effective way forward. This | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
bill aims to benefit both those areas experiencing over or under | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
subscription. The extra coverage provided by small-scale radio | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
multiplexes would benefit those areas, especially urban areas, where | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
currently county sized provision does not have the capacity to meet | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
demand. Likewise, in areas like the Shropshire and the Scottish Borders, | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
where there is no local multiplex, small-scale multiplexes could be | :15:18. | :15:21. | |
able to cater at a community level. More radio content and more people | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
accessing that content is clearly a desirable outcome. Indeed, the | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
Access radio scheme which saw the licensing of 15 community radio | :15:31. | :15:34. | |
stations was piloted by the radio authority in 2002 under the Labour | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
Government. Community radio continued to grow and strengthen. In | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
the five years following 2004, when the community radio warder came into | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
force, licences were given to more than 200 community radio services. | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
This created around 400 jobs, involved 10,000 volunteers and | :15:56. | :15:58. | |
offered their services to more than 10 million people. At the heart of | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
the scheme is the use of radio for social game and the developments | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
were hailed by Ofcom is one of the great UK broadcasting success | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
stories of the past few years. Radio content made by communities and for | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
communities was funded, supported and championed by Labour. Those hard | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
working groups and individuals who continued to run the services | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
continue to receive our full support and gratitude. Given that this bill | :16:24. | :16:30. | |
extends and modernises Labour's legacy, we welcome this bill and our | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
questions most relate to the practicalities rather than the | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
principles. As this is a bill which the Government have drafted, we will | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
be interested in what the Minister has disabling response. As mentioned | :16:42. | :16:46. | |
previously, the bill document draws specific attention to rule areas | :16:47. | :16:49. | |
where there are currently no local multiplexes. We have had many | :16:50. | :16:54. | |
examples today of how this would be welcomed across the country. | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
However, the Ofcom trial on which this bill is based used ten trial | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
locations, all of which were cities, from Glasgow to Manchester to | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
Cambridge. Of course I understand that the trial used pre-existing | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
radio services and so could not take place in areas without local | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
multiplexes. However, this disparity between the stated aim of the bill | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
and the scope of the trial which it is based requires further | :17:22. | :17:25. | |
exploration. Indeed, the industry body for commercial radio has | :17:26. | :17:28. | |
expressed concern that the measure prohibiting anyone with an interest | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
in a national or local multiplex from gaining a small-scale DAB | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
license could negatively impact rural areas, in particular where it | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
is possible that no other people would be interested. Can the | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
Minister tell us today if de CMS's consultation will specifically | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
address the feasibility of this programme in rural areas? In | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
particular, what is his view about the concerns expressed by radio | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
centre? The explanatory notes refer to those smaller radio stations and | :18:00. | :18:06. | |
240 community stations are currently do not have access to DAB and they | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
continue to board cast on analogue services on AM and FM. This bill is | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
presented in particular as an opportunity for such stations but, | :18:18. | :18:24. | |
Ofcom notes that in the smaller trials from 2016, whilst it should | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
be technically possible to develop a frequency programme for small scale | :18:29. | :18:32. | |
DAB to accommodate those stations, much more detailed planning and | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
optimisation work would be required to develop a frequency plan which | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
would be implemented in practice. The house will not want to pass the | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
bill on until it knows that this can be in fermented in practice. Can the | :18:45. | :18:56. | |
Minister tell us, please, what plans have been made to address these | :18:57. | :18:57. | |
uncertainties. When will the detailed planning and optimisation | :18:58. | :18:59. | |
work take place? Furthermore, there are issues to be addressed around | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
the experience and skills needed to capitalise on the opportunities this | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
bill could offer. Ofcom's final report notes that the trial is | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
focused on functionality so that the software and materials provided to | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
the operators involved in the trial were often, located and user | :19:16. | :19:20. | |
unfriendly. The majority of operators had suitably skilled | :19:21. | :19:22. | |
engineers or technical staff to deal with this and those that did not | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
receive additional support. In reality, a wider roll-out would | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
require more user-friendly tools as Ofcom recognises in the report. Yes, | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
delighted. I thank the Shadow Minister for giving way and welcome | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
the broad thrust of her remarks which appear to be supportive. If I | :19:43. | :19:47. | |
could make some reference to the operators. As she met any of those | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
involved in the trial and found out how simple some of this actually is, | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
as I have? I thank the honourable member for his comments. I | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
personally have not meant the providers as I am the Shadow | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
Minister for sport but members of my team have met with them and this | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
team are barely aware of the details, as I am -- are fully aware | :20:15. | :20:20. | |
of the details, as I am outlining today. The majority of people had | :20:21. | :20:31. | |
technical staff or additional support available. In reality, more | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
user-friendly tools would be required, as Ofcom recognised in the | :20:38. | :20:40. | |
report. This would be required by those without technically competent | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
staff and by those establishing a station for the first time. The | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
software developing community and market are beginning to deliver | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
those more user-friendly technologies. However, given that | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
this report was published only four months ago, it is safe to assume | :20:56. | :20:59. | |
that no breakthrough accessible technology has yet become available. | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
As such, does the Government to have a plan for making such technology | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
available? Will Government stakeholders and industry cooperate | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
to build up on skills and knowledge? Likewise, what assessment has been | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
made of the risk of adjacent channel interference which was a matter | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
discussed in the Ofcom report, which I am sure my honourable friend will | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
be fully familiar with. Of course, as is so often the case, this comes | :21:25. | :21:29. | |
down to funding and the Government is cutting funding wherever | :21:30. | :21:32. | |
possible. Department for Culture, Media and Sport seem hopeful that | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
bill will encourage the establishment of new small-scale | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
radio services. Can they clarify how and if any of these will be able to | :21:42. | :21:56. | |
claim grants? Radio projects established under Labour have | :21:57. | :21:58. | |
suffered a 17% cut. I understand that note fund will be available for | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
smaller scale DAB stations. Can the Minister confirm if that will be the | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
case? Some other details also require clarification. The draft | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
legislation specifies that a small-scale multiplex would only be | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
operated on a non-commercial basis. I'm concerted -- uncertainty over | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
this has caused concern amongst stakeholders. Radio centre | :22:20. | :22:23. | |
appreciates that the aim is to keep costs of carriage as low as possible | :22:24. | :22:27. | |
but with this stop a commercial operator from holding such a | :22:28. | :22:30. | |
license. Would commercial licenses be able to broadcast on the | :22:31. | :22:38. | |
multiplex? The community association has also expressed concern about the | :22:39. | :22:44. | |
ambiguity on this although they are in support of the bill in general. | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
In light of this, what measures will be taken to ensure that the | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
licensing of small-scale multiplexes encourages healthy come petition | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
without crowding out local services? Lastly, in relation to the bill at | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
large, we would like to know why was this provision not included in the | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
Digital economy Bill, the most obvious legislation for such a | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
measure? Indeed, the honourable member for Aldridge-Brownhills asked | :23:10. | :23:12. | |
the same question today in this chamber. The Government crammed | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
everything else into that bill, to the extent that this is a rather | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
more obvious thing to have included in their van what was in there. Does | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
that not indicate that we were right all along and that Bill was not | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
ready when we said, hence all of the adjustments. The Labour Party | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
encourage the proliferation of small-scale radio when in Government | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
and we welcome the opportunity for community channels and small | :23:45. | :23:49. | |
commercial channels to expand and to DAB and we support the establishment | :23:50. | :23:57. | |
of more local media. Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
Does she agree with me that community radio will benefit greatly | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
from this bill. I was once a volunteer Reporter on a community | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
radio station in Sydney in Australia where I covered rugby and | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
international relations. It was good to play a small part in the | :24:19. | :24:22. | |
community there and I am sure we support this bill for that reason. | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
Absolutely. We wholeheartedly support this bill for that reason | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
and I thank my honourable friend for his articulate and eloquent | :24:31. | :24:36. | |
comments. I would like to take this opportunity to once again reiterate | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
our support for local radio. Indeed, once with radio hows my own hustings | :24:41. | :24:46. | |
when I was victorious in June and I was very grateful to them for | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
covering it. Labour encouraged the proliferation of small-scale radio | :24:53. | :24:55. | |
in Government and we are proud of that fact, while weaving the | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
opportunity for community and small commercial channels to expand to DAB | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
and we support the establishment of more local media. We have questions, | :25:05. | :25:07. | |
some of which I have mentioned, and more which we will be discussing in | :25:08. | :25:12. | |
committee if this bill is successful today in receiving a second reading. | :25:13. | :25:15. | |
I greatly look forward to hearing what the Minister has to say. Thank | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the Shadow | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
Minister, although only slightly tempered that I was disappointed to | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
see a small amount of party politics into what has been a nonparty blitz | :25:33. | :25:35. | |
core and good-humoured debate today. I want to start by paying tribute to | :25:36. | :25:40. | |
my honourable friend, the Member for Torbay, for introducing this bill. | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
He is always an assiduous parliamentarian and performer in | :25:47. | :25:48. | |
this chamber and it is always a pleasure to listen to him and it is | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
even more so on an occasion when he is presenting his own bill and I pay | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
tribute to him for what he said and the work he has done on this issue. | :25:57. | :26:02. | |
As those that know me will be aware, I am not a particularly | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
technologically minded individual and therefore it is debates such as | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
this, Madam Deputy Speaker, that RA great opportunity to learn something | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
one hadn't known before both in the Trent -- both through listening to | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
them and in the research beforehand. Like many honourable member is, I am | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
a great fan of radio. I have disabled, no one, as far as I am | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
concerned, will ever quite compare to the late great Sir Terry Wogan. I | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
was Terry 's Young geezer my youth, listening to him and he will | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
continue to be missed. Of course, as many honourable member 's have said, | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
there are some fantastic broadcasters today and I very much | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
enjoyed not only Test match special and the wonderful John Suchet on | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
classic FM, but of course the wonderful Jim and Joe and the BBC | :26:58. | :26:58. | |
radio Leicester breakfast show. The essence of what we are debating | :26:59. | :27:07. | |
today reflects on the success of digital radio. We have seen huge | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
technological strides and developments in this area which are | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
a massive positive, but the reality is that the legislative framework, | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
the regulatory and licensing framework governing this area is | :27:22. | :27:27. | |
still rooted in, I believe, the 1996 and 2003 acts and has not managed to | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
keep pace with the changes we have seen. The regime is not explicitly | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
anti-small community radio stations, but that can often be the effect of | :27:39. | :27:43. | |
the way it operates. We have heard from honourable members that | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
carriage fees can be up to ?5,000 a month. That is clearly excessive for | :27:48. | :27:52. | |
many small community or voluntary radio stations. The trials which we | :27:53. | :27:59. | |
have heard about which I understand will run until 2018 are hugely | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
important and very positive, but not the basis for a sustainable, | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
long-term footing on which we can set community radio stations. In | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
essence there are three key elements to my honourable friend's bill which | :28:13. | :28:22. | |
are around innovation, localism and, indeed, proportionality. In terms of | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
innovation, we have heard and seen the huge strides made forward in | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
digital and EAB radio technology, we have seen increases in the number of | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
our constituents who choose to listen to radio in this way, and we | :28:38. | :28:43. | |
heard from my honourable friend for Bari North, both about the huge | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
successes in that technology but also that there are still challenges | :28:49. | :28:54. | |
to be overcome. -- honourable friend for Bury North. I believe those | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
challenges will be overcome. We have heard about the innovation and | :28:59. | :29:03. | |
software technology to support and enable broadcasting like this. We | :29:04. | :29:09. | |
have heard about localism from every honourable member talking quite | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
rightly about their own constituencies and we all know as | :29:14. | :29:16. | |
constituency MPs that each one of our villages, towns and parts of the | :29:17. | :29:24. | |
city have a very distinct and proud local identity. Local radio stations | :29:25. | :29:28. | |
and, indeed, community radio stations focused on towns and | :29:29. | :29:33. | |
villages played directly into that. People want but very local news, | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
they want that intimacy with the radio station that serves them. We | :29:38. | :29:44. | |
have heard about the role that those radio stations play not just in | :29:45. | :29:47. | |
combating loneliness, which my honourable friend the member for | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
South Ribble mentioned quite rightly, given the amazing work she | :29:52. | :29:54. | |
is doing on that subject. We have heard about their potential for | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
bringing on new broadcasting talent and we have also heard from my | :30:00. | :30:04. | |
honourable friend to the member for Corby, who has moved place but is | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
still in the chamber, about that sense of identity that people have | :30:09. | :30:12. | |
with those stickers in the window, I am sure, in the early summer of 2015 | :30:13. | :30:20. | |
alongside stickers abdicating his election to this house. | :30:21. | :30:25. | |
The third element, of course, is proportionality. Proportionality of | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
regulation to what is actually being regulated and what we seek to | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
achieve. The regulatory framework is currently applied may well and | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
probably is entirely appropriate for the regulation of multiplexes when | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
talking about the BBC, national stations or large regions. I would | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
argue it is not proportionate Ory reasonable framework in dealing with | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
small, local community radio stations serving a particular town | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
or village. This Government and particularly this minister have a | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
very strong track record of supporting innovation, particularly | :31:05. | :31:11. | |
in technology. I appreciate that he sometimes probably despairs of my | :31:12. | :31:16. | |
unwillingness to embrace all elements that the technological | :31:17. | :31:20. | |
revolution in this country can deliver, but he continues to | :31:21. | :31:23. | |
champion the cause of technological innovation very, very proudly. As we | :31:24. | :31:30. | |
know, he is also a great champion of localism and a great champion both | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
in this role and previous roles of deregulation to ensure that any | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
regulation necessary is proportionate to risk and what is | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
being regulated. In this case, to free up small and community | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
organisations, the better to deliver services to their community. This | :31:49. | :31:58. | |
bill is overdue, I would argue, when we look at innovation and technology | :31:59. | :32:05. | |
in this country, but it is extremely welcome. Seizing the opportunities | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
that technology brings, harnessing the innovation and passion of our | :32:12. | :32:18. | |
local communities and freeing them from unnecessarily odorous or costly | :32:19. | :32:27. | |
regulation or licensing frameworks are extremely worthy ambitions and | :32:28. | :32:32. | |
objectives. -- unnecessarily odorous. I believe this bill meets | :32:33. | :32:38. | |
head-on and addresses these in full. I very much hope that this house | :32:39. | :32:43. | |
will fully endorse the contents of this bill and that it will be able | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
to proceed to the next stage. I very much look forward to what the | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
Minister has to say but I do not doubt it will be in a similarly | :32:53. | :33:03. | |
supportive vane -- vein reflecting the efforts of the member for | :33:04. | :33:06. | |
Torbay. I'm very pleased to follow my | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
honourable friend from Charnwood, as usual he raises lots of very good | :33:11. | :33:15. | |
points. I would like to congratulate my honourable friend for Torbay for | :33:16. | :33:20. | |
bringing forward this bill. I have to confess that this is not an area | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
that I have been particularly familiar with and, like my | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
honourable friend for Charnwood, actually I am a bit of the | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
technophobe, I still can't work out how to do certain things on my | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
mobile phone. The fact that I had the DA be in my car, I am probably | :33:39. | :33:44. | |
more familiar with it that I have been in the past -- the fact that I | :33:45. | :33:50. | |
have a DAB in my car. What I had not realised about this area is that | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
there were significant barriers for local communities and voluntary | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
radio stations for getting access to the infrastructure, which was a very | :33:58. | :34:05. | |
interesting point. It made me look at my own constituency and see how | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
things are going there and see what opportunities there could be. As my | :34:11. | :34:16. | |
honourable friend from Ribble South mentioned earlier, this is a | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
technical bill and it is focusing on opening up what we have already got | :34:21. | :34:29. | |
to make it more accessible for communities and small organisations, | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
that has always got to be a good thing. We are really lucky in my | :34:33. | :34:36. | |
constituency of Rochester and Strood, we have a radio station | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
called KMFM operating across Kent and Medway -- Kent and Medway. It is | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
run by the KM group which operate on different radio stations across the | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
county, particularly Medway, the site is in my constituency. But they | :34:59. | :35:05. | |
do operate on a DA be multiplex across the county. There is one | :35:06. | :35:12. | |
radio station that operates across the county on that system. The | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
actual analogue stations that are separate across the county are a | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
major part of getting news out. One of the things that KMFM have been | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
really, really good at doing is supporting local events. We get | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
coverage of all of our events in my constituency. Whenever we have a big | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
festival in Rochester or Chatham or Strood we always have the local | :35:41. | :35:46. | |
radio station covering what is going on, it is massively important for | :35:47. | :35:50. | |
local people to hear and be part of what is going on and being able to | :35:51. | :35:54. | |
listen if they have not always been able to get to some of the big | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
events that we have. Also the key thing is the lifetime news, which in | :35:59. | :36:08. | |
some cases is far quicker and far more accurate than what we get from | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
some of the other bigger regional radio stations -- the live time | :36:13. | :36:21. | |
news. One of the things, and only yesterday, actually, we had an | :36:22. | :36:26. | |
incident where we were able to get out an incident... We had the snow | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
last night and there was a man who, unfortunately, his boat was set | :36:32. | :36:35. | |
alight and he had to jump into the river and was taken to hospital. | :36:36. | :36:42. | |
That news was live very quickly via the local news link. I have not yet | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
heard whether he is OK but I am sure that he is now. One of the other | :36:47. | :36:54. | |
thing is that the local radio station is quite good at is | :36:55. | :36:59. | |
businesses. I know it is mentioned by my honourable friend from High | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
Peak, but it is far more accessible for local businesses and the local | :37:07. | :37:09. | |
authority. When we want to advertise events happening locally it gives us | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
an opportunity to be able to get access to cost-effective advertising | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
and promotion of events. And for the local community that is a major, | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
major thing. But also they are prepared to cover very, very small | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
events like village fete which sometimes you would not be able to | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
get the larger radio stations to cover at all, and in some cases my | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
particular sport of sailing, very rarely do any of the regional... The | :37:43. | :37:49. | |
national regional radio stations cover my sport of sailing. But it is | :37:50. | :37:55. | |
quite... We are able to get our local very small community radio | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
stations to come and cover what we are up to, which is a really am | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
porting thing, not only to get out the message of what is going on in | :38:07. | :38:12. | |
the constituency. But it's the diversity of the programmes, I | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
think, that are covered by the small community and voluntary radio | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
stations, for example in Kent there is another station called Channel | :38:22. | :38:30. | |
Radio, a constituent of mine runs a radio programme called Women In | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
Business. And she often has many different women who go one and speak | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
on her programme talk about entrepreneurship, talk about how | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
they are raising their family and running a small business from home, | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
and it is a real opportunity for the people listening to the radio and | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
being able to network without being able to see people face to face. One | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
of the things... The feedback I have had is that those things are really | :38:59. | :39:03. | |
important, it goes back to, maybe, loneliness, but if you are bringing | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
up a small family at home and trying to contribute to the growth in our | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
economy by setting up your own business you can listen to other | :39:12. | :39:16. | |
females' experience about what it is like to run a business and some of | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
the challenges that we do face when we are running businesses. So that | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
has been a really interesting programme. She is a business woman | :39:24. | :39:30. | |
herself and does this from a voluntary basis because she just | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
wants to help women get on. She makes a very powerful case. | :39:33. | :39:38. | |
Would my right honourable friend like to agree with me that local | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
radio stations in particular like BBC Somerset in Taunton are great | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
for education. I did a couple of gardening programmes, they were very | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
much about encouraging people to garden but also to grow and feed | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
their families healthily on very little money. | :39:59. | :40:05. | |
I think she makes a wonderful point. She is absolutely correct. That is | :40:06. | :40:11. | |
the beauty of community or voluntary radio stations, smaller radio | :40:12. | :40:14. | |
stations. They have the opportunities, they have the time, | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
they have more capacity to be able to deliver interesting programmes | :40:19. | :40:26. | |
like that that meet the very particular demographic that they are | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
serving. So I absolutely agree and there are lots of opportunities and | :40:32. | :40:34. | |
I definitely feel that I have found that through some of the programmes | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
that she has run. Also I have another gentleman, Paul | :40:38. | :40:43. | |
Andrews, who runs The Kent Business Bunker. He also delivers a programme | :40:44. | :40:47. | |
covering a range of things about whether you are looking for jobs | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
across Kent, what particular industries are interesting to get | :40:52. | :40:58. | |
into and also he also talks about funding for starter businesses and | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
businesses wanting to grow. Actually business and helping the local | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
community, especially in a constituency like mine which is a | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
small business economy, opportunities and programmes like | :41:12. | :41:14. | |
this are massively important for my particular local community. | :41:15. | :41:24. | |
Sorry, I lost myself. The other thing that it does highlight is | :41:25. | :41:34. | |
that, and I haven't spoken much about this now and we have heard | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
members here today talk about a very particular voluntary radio | :41:42. | :41:43. | |
organisation, so, for example, like the hospital radio. These are very | :41:44. | :41:53. | |
valuable community sources, so I won't keep going on about that, but | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
one particular reason I am very pleased to be supporting my | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
honourable friend on this bill today is that this is the bill which is a | :42:01. | :42:09. | |
positive bill, looking at something already in existence and saying, how | :42:10. | :42:14. | |
can we open it up to the small section that currently needs it. | :42:15. | :42:21. | |
There are many things where we can look at opening them up for the | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
small business or voluntary sector and I think this is a really, really | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
lovely and ideal thing to be bringing forward to the House, so I | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
have had no hesitation in standing here today and supporting my | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
honourable friend from Torbay. I congratulate him on his very, very | :42:38. | :42:43. | |
detailed and well explained introduction today. It gave me a lot | :42:44. | :42:53. | |
better knowledge of digital radio and its industry going forward. So, | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
thank you, once again and I look forward to supporting the bill | :43:00. | :43:05. | |
today. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to thank the | :43:06. | :43:15. | |
honourable member/ and Stroud -- for Rochester and Strood and concur with | :43:16. | :43:25. | |
her about the points about connectivity but also pay tribute to | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
the honourable member for Torbay for bringing forward such a pertinent | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
bill that will not only enable businesses to grow, but it will also | :43:33. | :43:38. | |
start to allow us to look at not putting barriers in the way and ask | :43:39. | :43:46. | |
allowing to be pulling down barriers and not increasing regulation must | :43:47. | :43:49. | |
be what we are about in here. It's also about showing that we are a | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
flexible and adaptable parliament. That's what we're doing here today. | :43:55. | :43:59. | |
We are looking at modern times. We all work a different way, so | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
enabling modern communications to be more effective is what we must be | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
about. I will also declare myself as a radio nut. I will also say that my | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
DAB radio is on top of my kitchen cupboard where nobody can reach it. | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
Originally it was so I could get a better signal but now it is because | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
it restricts any of my children from changing the channel. It seems to | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
work very well on both fronts. Now, I also get a lot of my radio | :44:28. | :44:36. | |
listening off my phone. It struck me that the question that the right | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
honourable member for Plymouth asked as to whether we could use mobile | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
phone connectivity in a more beneficial way would be one that I | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
would like to ask the Minister. I am no technical bath. Is that something | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
that could be looked into? I have heard in this place in other debates | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
around mobile phones and not spots the fact that the churches have said | :44:59. | :45:01. | |
that they would be happy, and they are very often the tallest building | :45:02. | :45:06. | |
in rural communities, they would be happy to help facilitate masts and | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
so on in order to drive greater connectivity into communities. As we | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
heard from the honourable member for Ribble Valley, for the High Peak, | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
loneliness and connectivity, making sure that people can get to hear | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
what's going on in and around their local areas and in and around their | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
lives is vitally important. I would welcome an answer on that. But | :45:30. | :45:35. | |
radio's brilliant. It brings comfort. Not only do the Minister | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
and I share radio Suffolk, but also our local hospital, West Suffolk | :45:40. | :45:46. | |
Hospital. Radio West Suffolk brings great support to the patients that | :45:47. | :45:50. | |
are in there and I will give a shout out to Ian Norris here who | :45:51. | :45:52. | |
volunteers and we have heard so much about that this afternoon. People | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
running these radios give of their own time so selflessly. This helps | :45:58. | :46:07. | |
so much when you think that 87% of local radio stations support young | :46:08. | :46:11. | |
people volunteering. It is a hugely important area of our life in order | :46:12. | :46:15. | |
to start growing skills moving into the workplace. I don't know whether | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
I am right. Perhaps the Minister would like to respond. I feel like I | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
read somewhere that the minister he himself had time on a local radio | :46:25. | :46:31. | |
station. I am thinking radio Oxfordshire -- radio oxygen, so I am | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
hoping he doesn't run out of that when he is responding to the debate | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
this afternoon. I also had the great pleasure of visiting the British | :46:41. | :46:47. | |
forces radio in Canada last summer. British forces radio again is | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
important in connecting people's lives and in driving information | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
into places that wouldn't normally have that accessibility. Just giving | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
little personal bits of information that make people feel so much better | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
when they can't necessarily get out of a hospital bed or across parts of | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
the world in order to perhaps put their arms around a loved one. We | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
are taking things slowly. As the right honourable member 40 or they | :47:15. | :47:21. | |
explained, very eloquently, -- for Torbay explained, very eloquently, | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
as he introduced have this debate would go one. I am not technical, | :47:26. | :47:32. | |
but this strikes me as a good idea that we should be supporting today. | :47:33. | :47:37. | |
Today particularly, when we have snow falling outside, I know that | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
the travel news which has been spoken about by other honourable | :47:41. | :47:47. | |
member 's, the fact that our local radio act on such vital conduit for | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
travel news, they also tell us when our schools are open. Today, we | :47:52. | :47:58. | |
have, as I said earlier in the chamber, we have issues along this | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
coast as far as flooding goes. People who aren't necessarily using | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
the Environment Agency's bars to let them know what is going on with | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
flooding locally are going to be listening to local radio which shows | :48:11. | :48:15. | |
its huge importance in our community. Public information is | :48:16. | :48:18. | |
disseminated brilliantly in a way that we need to enable this | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
particular sector of our creative economy and it is part of that | :48:25. | :48:27. | |
creative economy that drives an awful lot of money into this | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
country. We need to enable them to help of volunteers, to help with | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
skills and to build on. Now, today on radio Suffolk, let's see what is | :48:37. | :48:42. | |
the time estimate it is 1:22pm, so Leslie will be entertaining across | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
Suffolk. I have had the pleasure of being on her show and chatting to | :48:47. | :48:52. | |
her. I would like to highlight that on radio Suffolk at the moment, | :48:53. | :48:59. | |
earlier on in the day, Mark Murphy is driving a campaign for no mobile | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
phones whilst you are driving. That is another thing that community | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
radios can do. They can start that campaigning zeal that we all | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
appreciate in this place. No mobiles, because mobiles being used | :49:13. | :49:15. | |
in the car one of the top four causes of death along with seat | :49:16. | :49:21. | |
belts, drink-driving and, oh, somebody might have to help me out. | :49:22. | :49:27. | |
Drink-driving, no seat belts, mobile phones and excessive speed, well | :49:28. | :49:33. | |
done. Once again, the honourable member for Torbay comes to my | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
rescue. We also just heard from the last speaker that local radio, | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
community radio in particular, covers 10,000 local events. The | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
fates that go on. I was recently interviewed by local radio at our | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
fireworks event in Bury St Edmunds but I have also come across them at | :49:53. | :50:00. | |
a plethora of school fares across the country, all sorts of different | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
events, but more importantly they bring ?25 million for charity and is | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
the honourable member for High Peak mentioned, it is often them | :50:10. | :50:12. | |
announcing that an event is going on, driving at Fulwood, getting | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
people to visit, and then getting people to put those contributions | :50:18. | :50:19. | |
into the bucket that actually helps them give another huge community | :50:20. | :50:26. | |
asset. Of course. My right honourable friend is making an | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
exceedingly powerful point and on that note, in this chamber I | :50:30. | :50:36. | |
mentioned a year ago that we might like to light up a monument and the | :50:37. | :50:46. | |
local radio, BBC Somerset, broadcast that and when we turned up in the | :50:47. | :50:50. | |
dark, hundreds of people turned up and they did that because they had | :50:51. | :50:56. | |
heard it on the radio to support my project to light up the local | :50:57. | :50:59. | |
monument simply because they had heard it on the radio. Would my | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
honourable friend agree with me that it is so important? I would | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
certainly agree and I also would congratulate her, as I believe she | :51:09. | :51:11. | |
got the money in the Autumn Statement to reinstate that monument | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
in her constituency. All that we have said in this place about work | :51:15. | :51:19. | |
experience, volunteering and so on, I want to give a particular shout | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
out to a member of my staff who goes home from her day's work here to a | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
community Stadium -- community station in the Harrow area. It | :51:29. | :51:36. | |
operates out of the hospital. The station's I merrily about the | :51:37. | :51:43. | |
community and is run -- run entirely by volunteers. Volunteers spend time | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
with patients on the ward and tailor the shows to their patients. It is a | :51:48. | :51:54. | |
chance for volunteers to gain hands-on experience in a new field | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
of radio broadcasting, with many... Yes, of course. Can I thank my | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
honourable friend for giving way. I am told that BBC radio Hereford and | :52:05. | :52:11. | |
Worcester hasn't appeared in this debate and I want to make sure that | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
that appears in hand side as well. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I | :52:18. | :52:21. | |
am delighted to get those words written into the -- written into | :52:22. | :52:30. | |
Hansard for the gentleman. It runs fundraising events, brings local | :52:31. | :52:37. | |
news to local people and this is all by volunteering. Now, only yesterday | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
I also heard that radio Caroline, which I am sure probably most | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
members are too young to remember, but radio Caroline have applied to | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
Ofcom to broadcast across East Anglia on AM. Their ship will be | :52:52. | :52:58. | |
moored in the Essex estuary and will only be on DAB in the northern part | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
of our county. It would be good to extend new business ventures and the | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
ability to do it across the piece. Whether it is your news, your music, | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
your travel, your politics or a little bit of something different, | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
because the radio is also your friend, which is, as the Member for | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
High Peak said, I know when I was raising a small family, woman's hour | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
used to mark the time through the day. I know when I was recovering | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
from being quite poorly that the play in the afternoon, I would | :53:34. | :53:38. | |
think, I am nearly at tea-time, and I can remember many of those. I am | :53:39. | :53:43. | |
so sad I take my radio gardening with me as I popped out to pull a | :53:44. | :53:53. | |
few weeks. Only weeds? Only weeds, I vaguely know the difference. A radio | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
is not only a piece of technical equipment. It is also a friend by | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
your side, so I would urge the Minister to take those thoughts on | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
board. I would thank the honourable member from Torbay for bringing this | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
forward. I would look forward to hearing from the Minister that we | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
are now going to, I think the radio termers action stations, and I look | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
forward to supporting this bill. Minister Matthew Hancock. Thank you | :54:24. | :54:31. | |
very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is a pleasure and an honour to be | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
called to the dispatch box to respond to this debate and I first | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
want to put on the record very fulsomely, as everybody else has, my | :54:42. | :54:45. | |
thanks to the Member for Torbay or introducing the broadcasting radio | :54:46. | :54:51. | |
multiplex services Bill 2016 and 17. I thought he gave a great exposition | :54:52. | :54:59. | |
of the bill and set out in good detail what he hopes we can achieve. | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
They also want to put on the record my thanks to the officials in DC and | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
as who have prepared and worked with him on this bill -- in the | :55:10. | :55:16. | |
Department for Culture, Media and Sport who have prepared and worked | :55:17. | :55:21. | |
with him on this bill and have prepared me for this, because we | :55:22. | :55:24. | |
have a dedicated team who cared deeply about radio in this country | :55:25. | :55:27. | |
and I am thankful to them. What I want to do is try to answer directly | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
many of the questions which have been asked throughout the course of | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
the debate and also set out, quite briefly, what is in the bill. | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
Because that part was done so well by my honourable friend at the | :55:44. | :55:50. | |
start, I will be relatively brief. I am grateful to all of those members | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
who have contributed. Maybe we should start with the position of | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
the Labour Party and the front bench opposite. I thought that what may be | :56:00. | :56:06. | |
her maiden performance at length from the dispatch box, the | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
honourable member from tooting was only elected in June and I thought | :56:13. | :56:18. | |
gave a great performance and lots of questions. So impressive was her | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
performance at the dispatch box that I wonder whether she will be opting | :56:22. | :56:29. | |
for a job outside of Parliament soon like an increasing number of her | :56:30. | :56:36. | |
friends. I'm going to be going through... If I go through her | :56:37. | :56:40. | |
questions indeed tell, I thought it was very impressive that the member | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
of tooting started off with more issues. The question of addressing | :56:45. | :56:52. | |
rural areas is a very important one. It has been addressed in the trials. | :56:53. | :56:58. | |
It was addressed in Ofcom's response to the trials. Of course, we are | :56:59. | :57:04. | |
going to go through the technical details that will be to be ordered | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
in a further consultation and I am sure that, especially with her | :57:11. | :57:13. | |
interest in that, and given that this is a piece of legislation | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
supported on all sides, that we will ensure that question is properly | :57:17. | :57:18. | |
answered. On the detailed planning for the | :57:19. | :57:29. | |
frequency plan, she seems to imply that it is not possible to votes for | :57:30. | :57:35. | |
and supported the bill until that is in place, I would caution her | :57:36. | :57:41. | |
against that approach because this has already started, the trials were | :57:42. | :57:45. | |
very positive on the frequency available. Of course the further | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
consultation will address the technical details, but those are a | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
matter for the orders of statutory instruments that followed the bill | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
rather than the principles we are debating today. I would say the same | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
about the comments made by radio Centre and the CMA, these are | :58:02. | :58:07. | |
matters for the regulations. She rightly raise the question of | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
skills. The trial is delivered, and I think the Ofcom report was quite | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
clear, exactly some of the sorts of skills that we should be looking for | :58:17. | :58:25. | |
in this space. She also raise the question of funding, she said it all | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
comes down to funding. I would caution her that although the Labour | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
Party seem to think everything comes down to public funding, we think | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
that human ingenuity is quite impressive. As it happens, we have | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
increased the funding for community radio support in this spending | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
period, increased and guaranteed up to 2020. It is amazing what people | :58:47. | :58:49. | |
can achieve if you give them the permission to do. As my old friend | :58:50. | :58:57. | |
the Torbay set out many times in the course of his speech, this is | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
ultimately a permissive piece of legislation about allowing people to | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
do things that they currently can't. Therefore it is about allowing and | :59:06. | :59:13. | |
unleashing, a further unleashing, of human ingenuity. She asks why this | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
bill and the clauses in it are not part of the Digital Economy Bill. | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
That is perfectly reasonable that we wanted to see the conclusions of the | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
trials before putting it into legislation, and we publish the | :59:28. | :59:31. | |
Digital Economy Bill in the summer but the trials had not concluded at | :59:32. | :59:35. | |
that point so we did not want to put it into that bill. There have been | :59:36. | :59:40. | |
odd noises from opposite about why the Digital Economy Bill Was Not -- | :59:41. | :59:47. | |
was not delayed but I do not think we can bring forward the transition | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
to digital in this bill or that one. She also raised the question that | :59:52. | :00:00. | |
has been raised by many others, including one of the members in her | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
place about the question of public only or public and private. I know | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
some of her friends on the front bench opposite think public good, | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
private bad. That is an approach we reject on this side because we think | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
that there can be a contribution from both public and private and | :00:17. | :00:21. | |
this question will be addressed in the consultation. As with other | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
parts of the bill is his permissive on that basis, it does not require | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
either public or private but there is an important balance to be struck | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
that we will address in the consultation which is that | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
ultimately small-scale Digital radio is about enabling communities and | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
community support, you don't want it to be completely gobbled up by large | :00:46. | :00:51. | |
commercial providers for whom there are other options. You want to make | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
sure that there is space for the innovative, for the very small, for, | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
as my honourable friend from Taunton said, I think it was them who said | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
that to be able to start a radio station from your garden shed. And | :01:11. | :01:16. | |
that is what this is all about. So there is a reasonable case for | :01:17. | :01:21. | |
limitation of the commercial element, but there is also a case | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
for very small commercial operations as well, and we will address the | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
balance of those cases in the forthcoming consultation. I hope | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
that addresses the points made on the front bench opposite, I will now | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
address some of the questions asked by other members. The first is the | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
question of how the masts will work and people will get these signals. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
My honourable friend from severable as to how it would work in practice | :01:53. | :01:58. | |
in terms of these masts. -- my honourable friend from South Ribble | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
an individual radio station to put an individual radio station to put | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
up the mast, the whole point is to have a network of them. The masts | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
can go on the mast is currently used for other things, they can go on | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
buildings and we have just relaxed some of the planning regulations | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
around masts, but she like me represents a rural area and in | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
Suffolk I have the great privilege of opening the local digital mast, | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
which has gone up next to a school in the middle of... In the northern | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
part of Southwark which means we can now get BBC Radio Wales of the con | :02:39. | :02:45. | |
Digital radio. The technology is there, the planning is there to | :02:46. | :02:49. | |
allow for it this -- which means we can now get BBC Radio Suffolk on | :02:50. | :02:58. | |
digital radio. There are ways to start at the radio station without | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
going through the hardware side of putting up your own mast. My | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
honourable friend for Morecambe, a great supporter of radio, he has not | :03:09. | :03:19. | |
only provided insight to this debate but also entertainment, you could | :03:20. | :03:22. | |
say that as well as the music he has provided the lyrics. He made a | :03:23. | :03:28. | |
passionate case about the positive impact of radio during times of | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
distress, particularly during the very serious storms and flooding in | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
his constituency a year or so ago. He paid tribute in particular to his | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
local radio stations in what I thought was a very balanced way. Now | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
there is no reason to think that DAB will be any less reliable and | :03:53. | :04:01. | |
resilient in times of storms, but by allowing for more localised digital | :04:02. | :04:05. | |
content you can get even more local information in times of distress. So | :04:06. | :04:13. | |
I hope he is reassured on that. My honourable friend from Plymouth made | :04:14. | :04:18. | |
the important point about political balance in community radio. Of | :04:19. | :04:22. | |
course all... Anybody Broadcasting House to follow the law of the land | :04:23. | :04:29. | |
is and the PPR a and make sure that their output conforms to what is | :04:30. | :04:38. | |
required. He made the very strong case for radio mostly on the grounds | :04:39. | :04:45. | |
of cricket. I remember well that his son is not only the entire Indian | :04:46. | :04:48. | |
Parliamentary cricket team that the entire rest of the British | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
Parliamentary cricket team by taking a wicket in Darren masala. I'll the | :04:52. | :04:59. | |
recall spending an awful lot of time recovering the ball from the | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
boundary. Yes, of course. I have to say I was deeply | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
surprised, too. My honourable friend might recall that whilst there were | :05:12. | :05:15. | |
250 people in the ground, it was being watched by 19 million people | :05:16. | :05:21. | |
on Indian television. I have no doubt that all 19 million were | :05:22. | :05:29. | |
totally astonished! But it shows that what you might regard as niche | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
broadcasts on in this case a cricket match between the UK and Indian | :05:36. | :05:39. | |
parliaments, many, many people sometimes want to watch. | :05:40. | :05:45. | |
I will give way. I was commentating for the Indian television when my | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
honourable friend took the wickets. Yes, I remember that. I will make | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
this point which is slightly more serious, which is I think there is a | :05:57. | :05:59. | |
reason that 19 million people in India were watching, that is not the | :06:00. | :06:05. | |
quality of the commentary, nor the bowling nor the fielding, it was | :06:06. | :06:13. | |
because there is very heavy regulation on the number of | :06:14. | :06:15. | |
broadcast channels in India, so there was nothing else to watch. | :06:16. | :06:20. | |
Whereas if we put ourselves in the eyes of the viewer or the listener | :06:21. | :06:26. | |
it is far better to have more stations, especially local stations, | :06:27. | :06:30. | |
so that people, frankly, can do something better than watch the | :06:31. | :06:33. | |
member for Plymouth and I play cricket. Moving on, my honourable | :06:34. | :06:42. | |
friend raised the issue of the strength of signal power and | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
financial restrictions. Her point and financial restrictions is | :06:48. | :06:55. | |
slightly out of date. Since 2014 we have gradually... We have relaxed | :06:56. | :07:01. | |
slightly the financial restrictions on community stations, precisely | :07:02. | :07:04. | |
because of the argument that she made that if you are a community | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
station you still need to raise the money to run your community station, | :07:09. | :07:13. | |
so I hope... Maybe I can write to her with a full details of the | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
changes we have made and she can tell me whether she thinks we have | :07:17. | :07:27. | |
gone far enough. My honourable friend for Bury made the case that | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
small-scale multiplexer should be able to run on a commercial basis as | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
well. He also asked when this would all be in place, the answer is that | :07:36. | :07:44. | |
should this bill proceeds and alongside it we consult on the | :07:45. | :07:48. | |
details of the orders, we will be able to have the systems in place by | :07:49. | :07:54. | |
early 2018 with the goal of halving its place before the trials come to | :07:55. | :08:00. | |
an end at the end of 20 18. So we are on the path to get all that | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
timing right but we need to get the bill through in order to make that | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
happen. The honourable members the Charnwood | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
and from Rochester and Strood both professed to be not technological. | :08:18. | :08:21. | |
In fact, towards the end of the debate this crap to do everything at | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
my honourable friend for Bury St Edmunds, the suffix Bury, was making | :08:28. | :08:38. | |
the same argument. The thing is this, there may be and there are | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
many, many people who are incredibly enthusiastic about technology and | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
excited by it, I would count myself as one, but technology is only any | :08:48. | :08:52. | |
good if it caters for people because of what it does, not because of what | :08:53. | :08:59. | |
it is. So for people not enthusiastic about technology, you | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
can still use digital radio, for instance, to listen to Test match | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
special, and the gradual move towards digital has the potential, | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
if handled correctly, to free up spectrum is to be used in other | :09:14. | :09:16. | |
ways, but it has to be done carefully. This comes back to a | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
point made a lot at the start, this is about adding capability, it is | :09:22. | :09:28. | |
not about turning off analogue. As it happens, by coincidence I met the | :09:29. | :09:30. | |
Norwegian minister this morning on my way and she was telling me about | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
the progress they have made in starting to turn off the analogue | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
services. We not there yet, we still hope to do it, but we have to make | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
sure that enough people are on digital first and that we support | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
those still on analogue in the transition. There have been big | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
changes in the last couple of years, the car market, nearly 90 -- 95% of | :09:57. | :10:03. | |
new car radios are digital. The changes happening, the change is a | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
good thing, but we have to do it sensibly and carefully and this bill | :10:09. | :10:16. | |
makes no impact on those plans. The member for Bury St Edmunds | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
mentioned BBC Radio Suffolk, radio West Suffolk, which I visited in the | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
last parliament. It is true that I started life... As a student I was | :10:28. | :10:35. | |
on Oxygen 17.9, a radio station in Oxford where I learned how to handle | :10:36. | :10:39. | |
a radio microphone, I had the same sort of experiences as the member | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
for Taunton, it taught me a huge amount. I was the minority sports | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
correspondent and I had a lot of fun and I am sure that the radio was | :10:49. | :10:55. | |
more fun to make than to listen to. And I also, finally, in this, want | :10:56. | :11:04. | |
to pay tribute to the work of those helping with the expansion of the | :11:05. | :11:10. | |
digital radio, particularly to one person who outside this house has | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
done an enormous amount of work to try to make sure that people | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
understand what's digital radio is and, indeed, he is often on the | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
radio about why digital radio matters. | :11:24. | :11:29. | |
There are, Madam Deputy Speaker, currently around 200 smaller | :11:30. | :11:31. | |
commercial radio stations could bring small markets, and 244 | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
commercial radio stations transmitting on mainly FM and medium | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
wave, which are not broadcasting on digital radio. I think that the | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
details of the bill have been well discussed and set out today. I think | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
the purpose of the bill has been well set out to day. I am delighted | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
that the bill has cross-party support and support from everybody | :11:57. | :12:01. | |
who has spoken in this debate and I hope that it can make progress, and | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
I pay tribute to my honourable friend for Torbay for bringing it | :12:06. | :12:07. | |
forward with such panache. With the leave of the House, can I | :12:08. | :12:19. | |
thank all the members who have spoken in the bill, in particular | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
the Shadow Minister and Minister for their support. I am pleased to note | :12:25. | :12:27. | |
that we are all on the same wavelength with bringing this | :12:28. | :12:31. | |
forward. I'm sure we can look forward to a range of broadcasts in | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
future when we take this bill into committee. I would like to thank the | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
honourable members for their support in bringing this bill forward and | :12:42. | :12:50. | |
for helping me know how best to bring this forward. The question is | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
that the bill now be read for a second time? The ayes have it, the | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
eyes mac habit. -- the ayes have it. I beg to move that the civil | :13:04. | :13:17. | |
partnership Amendment Bill be now read a second time. In doing so, I | :13:18. | :13:25. | |
am very excited, because in almost 20 years and this House, it is the | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
first time a bill of mine have got bearing on Friday morning ever. It | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
shows what can happen if you persevere and I do hope the Minister | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
is not going to spoil it when he gets to signal his vast amounts of | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
support for this very sensible and much-needed measure. Madam Deputy | :13:45. | :13:47. | |
Speaker, the debate over the same-sex marriage act has passed. | :13:48. | :13:54. | |
The act has become law and over 15,000 couples have taken advantage | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
of that new opportunity and whatever people on the opposite sides of the | :13:58. | :14:03. | |
argument now think, the world has not fallen in. The extension of | :14:04. | :14:10. | |
marriage, then, has unwittingly created a new inequality and a | :14:11. | :14:18. | |
Government which argued cynically -- argued zealously that this was about | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
equality is missing that marriage is available to same-sex and... He will | :14:27. | :14:43. | |
recall at the time that the same-sex marriage bill was known as the equal | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
marriage bill by many people. Would he agree that for that legislation | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
to truly be known as the equal marriage bill that this amendment | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
has to be actioned in order for things to be properly equal between | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
heterosexual and homosexual couples? I do agree with that and that is why | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
I argued for the amendment at the time which would have made that | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
inequality created, whereby heterosexual and same-sex couples | :15:11. | :15:23. | |
could enter into civil partnership. Different sex couples who wish to | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
give legal recognition to their relationship but not necessarily to | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
get married, doesn't this bill deal precisely with that situation? That | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
is right and I think that is why this situation is needed. What I | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
described, that inequality, some people may say, well, so what? | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
People who are opposite sex couples have always been able to get | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
married, in a church, a registry office, even now medieval castles or | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
exotic beaches. The problem is that a great many opposite sex couples | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
choose not to go down the traditional marriage route. The | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
Office of National Statistics estimate that there are just over 3 | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
million cohabiting opposite sex couples in this country, almost | :16:09. | :16:13. | |
double the figure reported ten years ago and over a third of them have | :16:14. | :16:17. | |
children. Indeed, cohabitation is the fastest-growing form of family | :16:18. | :16:22. | |
in the UK and we need to recognise that our society is recognising just | :16:23. | :16:26. | |
as we did with recognising same-sex partnerships in 2004, which I | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
enthusiastically supported at the time and it was right to do. It was | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
a glaring inequality and injustice that up to then that loving same-sex | :16:36. | :16:41. | |
couples were not recognised in the eyes of the state and enjoyed no | :16:42. | :16:47. | |
protections under the law. That anomaly was quite rightly addressed | :16:48. | :16:50. | |
by this House and I was glad to be part of that back in 2004. People | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
choose not to get in debt -- involved in the paraphernalia of | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
full marriage for a variety of reasons. It is too much of an | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
establishment of them to do it, it is identified as an innately | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
religious thing for many, some see it as having a patriotic all side | :17:08. | :17:13. | |
and some see it as form of social control. It is not a proper | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
partnership. Those are not my own view is necessarily but it is | :17:18. | :17:19. | |
certainly the way that many people see it. There are a whole lot of | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
complex reasons why our constituents do not go down the marriage route | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
but if they do not want to go for traditional marriage, they have no | :17:32. | :17:34. | |
way of having their relationship recognised in the eyes of the state, | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
just as it was the case for same-sex couples pre-2000 and four. I will of | :17:38. | :17:46. | |
course. On that point, is my honourable friend whereof all can he | :17:47. | :17:49. | |
think of any reason why all those who supported the same-sex marriage | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
legislation would not want to support what might right honourable | :17:54. | :17:59. | |
friend is asking for in this bill? Of course, and at the time my | :18:00. | :18:05. | |
proposal was fully supported by the Labour Party at the Liberal | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
Democrats and buy a good deal of my own benches but for various reasons | :18:10. | :18:12. | |
they voted against the amendment at that stage. The logic is that of | :18:13. | :18:17. | |
course we would want to address that inequality but there are various | :18:18. | :18:20. | |
practical reasons that I want to come onto. Particularly worrying is | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
the common misconception that there is such a thing as a common-law wife | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
or husband. A woman typically finds out when there is an inheritance tax | :18:30. | :18:40. | |
bill and the estate or run the home. On that point, if people realise | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
there is no such thing as a common-law wife or husband, they | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
would then opt for this to give them that exact protection so that they | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
would not lose their home and they would have protection that they do | :18:55. | :18:58. | |
not have currently. And that is a very practical advantage from this | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
bill, because there was a great deal of ignorance amongst constituents | :19:03. | :19:05. | |
who think they have these protections, because if a woman has | :19:06. | :19:10. | |
a child with her partner and the relationship breaks down, she is not | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
entitled to any automatic form of child support if they are not | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
married, no automatic entitlement to property even if she had been paying | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
into the mortgage and surely couples should not be forced to choose | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
between having no legal protection or entering into an institution that | :19:26. | :19:31. | |
is not right for them? Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
The other issue that is surely important is the dependence? | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
Therefore if you are a daughter looking after an elderly mother and | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
your mother dies and that therefore means that jewel home is lifting, is | :19:44. | :19:53. | |
that the future? It is the future of children, the maintenance of | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
children, it is the property, it is the inheritance tax bill that all of | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
a sudden happens which could lead into the sale of the property and | :20:01. | :20:03. | |
you find yourself effectively homeless. All of these are potential | :20:04. | :20:11. | |
dangers that people who are not in a formal, legally recognised | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
relationship are currently facing. I thank my honourable friend for | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
giving way and he is making a very sound case. I was fascinated to hear | :20:21. | :20:26. | |
about the statistics for cohabiting now and if we are indeed to build a | :20:27. | :20:31. | |
balanced society, bring up our children in a fair and good way, | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
surely it is very important to move forward the idea is encompassed in | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
this bill in order to help society as a whole? My honourable friend has | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
pre-empted a large plank of my speech. I think rather than letting | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
everybody pre-run what I'm going to say, I will get on with saying it | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
and then take contributions. When one partner is much older than the | :20:56. | :20:58. | |
other and there is the reasonable assumption one will die some years | :20:59. | :21:01. | |
before the other, a long-time survival would not receive the same | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
tax benefits as those in a marriage or civil partnership. Even a couple | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
engaged to be married have more rights than a cohabiting couple. The | :21:12. | :21:21. | |
formalised opposite sex civil partnership bid save a lot of | :21:22. | :21:24. | |
heartache. These are all reasons for natural justice and protecting the | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
rights of partners whilst once again promoting a Private members Bill to | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
promote civil partnership to opposite sex couples and have been | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
trying to do this since they change the legislation in 2013. There is a | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
great deal of d j vu involved in this. Without the Government | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
support, this is unlikely to make headlines, despite the fact that it | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
has the support of honourable members from all sides of the House, | :21:50. | :21:54. | |
instigating a nationwide campaign that has so far attracted 71,000 | :21:55. | :21:58. | |
signatures to a petition and I am particularly pleased that we have | :21:59. | :22:03. | |
the support of my honourable friend for Altrincham and their least and a | :22:04. | :22:12. | |
number of honourable members from just about all parties represented | :22:13. | :22:18. | |
in this House. Indeed, the honourable lady, the Member for | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
Rotherham, who speaks for the official opposition inequality | :22:22. | :22:24. | |
matters put it in her blog that we have the chance to take another step | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
in extending true equality, choosing the type of partnership that those | :22:30. | :22:40. | |
-- best fits our thoughts, lies and religion. I have supported this bill | :22:41. | :22:49. | |
for a long time. It is all about equality. I had a Private members | :22:50. | :22:53. | |
Bill that didn't get as far as yours about putting mothers names and | :22:54. | :22:58. | |
occupations and marriage certificates and the honourable | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
member for child would have taken up the mandate. It is about equality | :23:02. | :23:04. | |
and does the honourable member agree that despite the result of the | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
appeal in the High Court which has been challenged, ruling against it, | :23:12. | :23:14. | |
it is a matter for this House to decide because it is a matter of | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
great public interest? Quite, and I will refer to the case that is going | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
to appeal imminently. My bill might not get much further than hers | :23:25. | :23:30. | |
though if I continue to talk it out. I will make some progress now | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
because there are high-profile supporters of this including Rebecca | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
Seinfeld and Charles Kane who are the couple who instigated this | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
campaign. They appeared in the Royal Colts in London last September | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
seeking to overturn the ban on opposite sex civil partnership | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
arguing that it treats people unfairly because it depends on their | :23:52. | :23:59. | |
sexuality. In contests -- in contrast, a couple recently entered | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
into a civil partnership for the first time in the British Isles but | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
they had to travel to the Isle of Man to do that. So whilst they have | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
made this step towards equality, the Government on the mainland United | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
Kingdom are claiming, as they did when Rebecca and Charles first went | :24:20. | :24:24. | |
to the High Court in January, that such a change would be costly and | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
complicated and I just cannot see how or why. I am not convinced this | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
is not an excuse. This change is very straightforward. Just as with | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
the same-sex civil partnerships, it would not be possible for you to | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
become a partner with a close family member or if you were already in a | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
union. All that is required is a simple one line amendment to the | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
Civil Partnership Act 2004 that my bill would enact, which is why it is | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
a short one Clause bill. It could all be done and dusted in committee | :24:58. | :25:01. | |
by tea-time. I will give way very briefly. I'm sorry to interrupt my | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
honourable friend a game but the other way of equalising the law | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
would be to ban civil partnerships for gay couples. I just wondered | :25:12. | :25:15. | |
whether or not my honourable friend would be in favour of equalising the | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
law by doing it that way? That would indeed provide an equality and close | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
this loophole but it would be a retrograde step backwards because | :25:27. | :25:28. | |
for the reasons I mentioned, people don't want to go down the formal | :25:29. | :25:32. | |
marriage reach whether they be of the same sex or opposite sex | :25:33. | :25:38. | |
marriage group so we would be denying people who have chosen to go | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
down that route and have chosen not to convert their civil partnership | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
to a marriage as they can now do. Clearly there are reasons why a | :25:48. | :25:50. | |
civil partnership suits them. It is just that those of an opposite sex | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
cannot have that same privilege if it suited them better than | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
traditional marriage. One way of doing it would be that but it would | :26:00. | :26:06. | |
serve to cause downsides as well. In the Government's initial | :26:07. | :26:09. | |
consultation before the Civil Partnership Act in 2013, 71% of | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
people were in favour of expending marriage. That never made it into | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
the legislation for some inexplicable reason. That would have | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
made it fairer. When I read to the Secretary of State for Education | :26:28. | :26:29. | |
recently, in her reply for why the Government were not supporting this, | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
she quoted, as part of the exercise after the same-sex marriage bill | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
came in, we examined whether people encourage | :26:41. | :26:49. | |
Why did their views no longer count? But aside from some equality | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
question, there is a further major practical benefit in opening up | :26:57. | :27:00. | |
civil partnership to couples and that is family stabilities. My | :27:01. | :27:03. | |
honourable friend from Taunton mentioned. The centre for social | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
justice calculated the cost tho country of familiar breakdown is ?38 | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
billion each and every year or 2.5% of gross domestic product. That's a | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
big problem. It's a growing problem and it's a costly problem, costly in | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
terms of finances and socially to our society. Fewer than one in ten | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
married parents have split up by the child a reaches the age of five | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
compared to those co-habiting but not married. 75% of family | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
breakdowns involving children under five result from the separation of | :27:34. | :27:36. | |
unmarried parents. There is all sorts of statistics about those | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
children and more susceptible to not doing well at school, to not ending | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
up in good jobs, problems with housing, mental health and so on. | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
That's not to be judgmental about parents who find themselves having | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
to bring up a child alone through no fault of their own, but two partners | :27:53. | :27:56. | |
make for greater stability. We know that marriage works. We also know | :27:57. | :28:00. | |
that civil partnerships are beginning to show evidence of | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
greater stability for same-sex couples as well, including those who | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
have children, be it through adoption, or whatever. So there is a | :28:08. | :28:12. | |
strong case for believing that extending civil partnerships would | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
improve that stability for many more families in different ways. It is | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
one in ten co-habiting opposite sex couples entered into a civil | :28:21. | :28:24. | |
partnership, 3 hundred,000 couples and their children t would offer | :28:25. | :28:27. | |
greater security and stability, less likelihood of of a family breakdown, | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
better social outcomes, and better financial outcomes and that surely | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
is progress and particularly good for children who are parts of those | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
families. There is a further application because many people who | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
have strong religious beliefs, particularly Catholics, who have | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
ended up getting divorced which is in conflict with certain religious | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
teachings, may not be inclined to get married again if they meet a new | :28:50. | :28:52. | |
partner because their Church supposedly believes they should be | :28:53. | :28:55. | |
married for life. In many cases, however, they would be able to | :28:56. | :29:01. | |
reconcile that position by entering into a new formal commitment, so | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
there ash number of practical real life scenarios in which civil | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
partnerships for opposite sex couples could achieve something | :29:10. | :29:12. | |
positive that would not be available to those loving couples otherwise. | :29:13. | :29:18. | |
Opposite sex civil partnerships are not something cooked up in | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
haphazardly circumstances in this country. In South Africa the civil | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
union act of 2006 gave same-sex and opposite sex couples the option to | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
register a civil union by way of a marriage or civil partnership on the | :29:31. | :29:38. | |
same basis. In France a pact was introduced in 1999 as a form of | :29:39. | :29:43. | |
civil union between two adults of the same-sex or opposite sex and now | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
gay marriage has been added to that. Interestingly, one in ten pacts has | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
been dissolved in France whilst one in three and many more marriages | :29:55. | :29:56. | |
ends in divorce. There is evidence that some of those civil | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
partnerships have created greater stability whether they are opposite | :30:01. | :30:07. | |
sex or same-sex partnerships. And if we look at a countries with both | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
marriage and civil partnerships open to all, like the Netherlands, the | :30:11. | :30:13. | |
vast majority of different sex couples continue to choose marriage | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
so it's in no way trying to undermine the traditional | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
partnership of marriage, but a significant minority choose civil | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
partnerships, couples in the UK should surely have that choice too. | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
And I am glad in the many years I have been banging away on this | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
subject and the campaign has got greater, support has grown. Indeed, | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
the London Assembly recently gave its unanimous support to this change | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
in the law and passed a motion unanimously that the Assembly notes | :30:46. | :30:48. | |
while same-sex couples are able to form a civil partnerships, different | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
sex couples cannot. The Assembly acknowledges approximately one in | :30:53. | :31:00. | |
five households in London exists of a co-habiting couple, the Assembly | :31:01. | :31:03. | |
believes it's unfair and prevents these couples able to get legal | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
recognition for their relationship in a way that matches their values. | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
The Assembly recognises that City Hall has often been forefront of | :31:13. | :31:15. | |
efforts to extend liberties and it introduced a registration scheme for | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
same-sex couples so the Assembly called on the mayor to support the | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
equal civil partnerships campaign and urged him to make | :31:22. | :31:23. | |
representations to the Government for a change in the law if the Court | :31:24. | :31:29. | |
of Appeal rejeths one appeal against the High Court's decision to rejeth | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
their application to form a civil partnership. Last week there was a | :31:35. | :31:41. | |
very supportive article in the Solicitors Journal where it referred | :31:42. | :31:49. | |
to the current anomaly as discriminatory and the senior | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
partner at family law said to some the concept of marriage is outdated | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
but seek a union where vows and promises to each other are not | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
required. So there is a lot of support for this measure. I have | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
received many e-mails from couples around the country who are waiting | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
for this change in the law to be able to signal in the eyes of the | :32:13. | :32:18. | |
public, their friends and the law and the state that they are part of | :32:19. | :32:24. | |
a loving, secure, sustainable long-term union. It's just a | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
different arrangement to many other people choosing to go down. If I | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
quote from two emails I received in recent days. My partner and I live | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
together for 25 years, we are not religious, nor do we feel a wedding | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
is suitable for us, we work full-time and all hard and feel we | :32:43. | :32:44. | |
deserve the recognition that other couples enjoy. As we get older, | :32:45. | :32:50. | |
they're in their 50s, we feel we deserve financial and long-term | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
benefits given to other couple who is contributed to great nation but | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
we are currently denied these rights. Another wrote, my peal | :32:58. | :33:04. | |
partner and I, female, have lived together for 38 years, we do not | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
wish to marry. My mother was adversely affected by marriage in | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
the days when women were rejected from their careers upon marrying and | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
rape in marriage was legal and my mother's advice was to try to enjoy | :33:17. | :33:19. | |
it as it might reduce physical damage. But we do want a civil | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
partnership. We are now both dependent on our pensions, but if my | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
partner died tomorrow I would not be recognised by his pension provider | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
and will receive nothing from them. If we had a civil partnership they | :33:32. | :33:37. | |
would recognise my claim. Just another example of the instability | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
facing loving couples in this case together for 38 years, if one of | :33:43. | :33:48. | |
them were happened to die or not be part of that relationship, because | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
the state does not recognise those relations. That is a nomly we do | :33:54. | :34:03. | |
need to close. I don't understand why the Government reneged | :34:04. | :34:07. | |
effectively on its promise to pursue this properly and to draw an end to | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
that inadvertent inequality which came back from that act. Regardless | :34:12. | :34:18. | |
of what we did on that act, there is a case for extending civil | :34:19. | :34:22. | |
partnerships to opposite sex couples for a whole raft of positive reasons | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
that I have given in my short comments here. If the Government is | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
to allow people to be as free as possible to make their own | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
decisions, without harming the freedom of others, what is it doing | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
failing to make it lawful for people of the opposite sex who happen to | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
love each other for them to enter into a civil partnership when it | :34:41. | :34:46. | |
allows that very same freedom to people of the same sex? The current | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
situation is unfair, and needs to change and that is exactly what my | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
bill will do and with minimum fuss and that's why I commend it to the | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
House today. The question is that the bill be | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
read a second time. Thank you. I rise to support this private members | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
bill on behalf of the loyal opposition. It's a bill with genuine | :35:09. | :35:12. | |
cross-party support. It's backed by colleagues who voted on both sides | :35:13. | :35:19. | |
of the argument in 2013 for same-sex marriage, including the honourable | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
gentleman, the member for Worthing and East Sussex who put a powerful | :35:23. | :35:28. | |
case already, he has nicked many of of the points I wanted to make in my | :35:29. | :35:38. | |
speech. He mentioned Martin and Clare, they're my constituents, they | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
live in Ealing in the next road to me, they were the first ever people | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
to enter one in the British Isles in a civil partnership but they had to | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
go to the Isle of Man. I am sure the Isle of Man is a lovely place, but | :35:51. | :35:56. | |
if this bill goes through no one will ever have to make that journey | :35:57. | :35:58. | |
again. LAUGHTER | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
I am sure it's lovely, I have never been. Look, he also mentioned - I am | :36:06. | :36:16. | |
going to crack on, there is workers' rights, my honourable friend is | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
going to speak. He also mentioned the London Assembly and their | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
unanimous vote in favour of this but also early day motion 619, genuine | :36:24. | :36:28. | |
cross-party support, even the DUP, as well as the usual suspects, so | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
it's clearly a matter of public interest that the Government needs | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
to properly revisit. As has been pointed out, it's a matter of | :36:38. | :36:41. | |
equality. Civil partnerships only exist for same-sex couples of the UK | :36:42. | :36:46. | |
and in a democracy all people should be equal before the law. I am proud | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
to say that my party has offered much of our antidiscrimination | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
legislation the Race Relations Act, equal pay, abolishing the heinous | :36:56. | :37:02. | |
clause 28, right up to the equalities act of 2010, so this to | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
me seems a logical step. The civil partnerships were a new Labour | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
creation in the first place. They were ground-breaking at the time to | :37:12. | :37:16. | |
allow LGBT people to have their loving relationships recognised by | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
law and those same benefits as married couples. But I think this | :37:20. | :37:24. | |
anomaly we have is an unintended consequence that was necessary in | :37:25. | :37:27. | |
the long and winding road to equal marriage. So it's time to rectify | :37:28. | :37:34. | |
that now. Because there are huge steps forward at the time but that | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
was 2004, it's 13 years ago so it's time to open them up to all. It | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
would be easily done as has been pointed out. This is a short bill. I | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
think it's just sort of two lines on a generous interpretation. It means | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
deleting the words must be the same sex, that is all that needs to be | :37:51. | :37:56. | |
done, no new law, so just an extension of what is already on | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
offer to the campaign for equal civil partnerships estimate that | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
it's 2. 9 million people, it may be more, who are in partnerships who | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
feel for whatever reason, and we have had a list outlined, choose not | :38:10. | :38:15. | |
to marry. 39% of them with dependent children. So when same-sex marriage | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
became legal many gay couples had an upgrade, they traded up to full | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
marriage from civil partnerships. So here we got an opposite case of | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
people that want to take a leaner, modern, 21st century version and | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
affording their families the same legal protections, fairness | :38:36. | :38:38. | |
consistency, equity in legislation, who would disagree with any of that? | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
And back in 2013 my party tabled an amendment stating that the | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
Government should consult on allowing all couples civil | :38:49. | :38:51. | |
partnerships, access as soon as possible following the passing of | :38:52. | :38:55. | |
the marriage same-sex couples act. Since then it does seem that the | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
Government's found all sorts of pretexts for not bringing forward | :39:01. | :39:04. | |
access to all or even revisit the issue in a serious way, they've | :39:05. | :39:08. | |
argued the results of the consult ace were inconclusive, they need to | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
await the outcome of pending legal action before they could possibly | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
reopen this issue but this sounds to the outside world just like dpuss. | :39:18. | :39:26. | |
So if we look further -- like excuses, we have had mention of the | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
French case, when I was a student there 20 years ago, they thought it | :39:31. | :39:32. | |
was normal and couldn't understand why we don't have it here. I could | :39:33. | :39:36. | |
go into the complexities of international law, there are | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
articles out there people can Google that say that articles eight and 14 | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
of the European convention for human rights, which thankfully we are | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
still in and it looks like we are not leaving in any great hurry, that | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
the bits that sort of promise equality of the application of the | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
convention and the bits about freedom of family life, you could | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
argue contravene this and previous case law where our Government has | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
been on the wrong side of that so we wouldn't want the waste of public | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
expenditure and time that we had in previous cases. Secretary of State | :40:09. | :40:10. | |
for work and pensions versus M is what I am thinking of. I am going to | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
not eat up more time. In short, this is the right thing to do. As my | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
constituents Clare and Martin put it, imagine two houses, one says gay | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
marriage, and the other says CP on the front. Up a couples are allowed | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
in the first house but only gay couples are allowed into the second. | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
Now heterosexual couples like us just want to be allowed in that | :40:33. | :40:39. | |
second house too. So for fairness, equality, the tangible benefits that | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
would know from this, for the right of couples to dhoos the type of | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
partnership that best suits their needs, faith and aspirations, we | :40:46. | :40:48. | |
support this private members bill before us today and urge the | :40:49. | :40:51. | |
Government to revisit this matter without further delay. | :40:52. | :40:57. | |
David Morris. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been a | :40:58. | :41:05. | |
fantastic day for Private Members' Bills and this Private Members' | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
Bill, I would see as being seen as welcome across the land. It really | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
is time that we should address this particular issue and I pay tribute | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
to my honourable friend for securing this date and for his bill to be | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
explained to the House. My personal feelings on this or that I think if | :41:26. | :41:32. | |
people love one another, it doesn't matter what six they are, same-sex, | :41:33. | :41:39. | |
heterosexual, should they wish to enter into an agreement or | :41:40. | :41:43. | |
partnership, that is up to themselves. It really is up to | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
themselves and I think the law should accommodate for any | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
partnership that is legally binding, especially when it comes down to | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
sharing of property and God forbid if one partner should be left | :41:57. | :42:02. | |
behind, by the other, in either circumstances of you know, sadly | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
death or for other reasons, that partner would be covered for | :42:09. | :42:13. | |
legally. I do realise that the last government moved mountains in the | :42:14. | :42:21. | |
equality of same-sex marriage is and partnerships in that respect, | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
however, this should be looked at more intently, I do believe. And we | :42:26. | :42:31. | |
should look into this as a matter of urgency. I would like to commend | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
this issue to the House, along with my honourable friend who has | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
about his wishes to see this bill to about his wishes to see this bill to | :42:44. | :42:52. | |
become law. Kevin Foster. Thank you become law. Kevin Foster. Thank | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
madam Deputy Speaker. I am conscious madam Deputy Speaker. I am conscious | :43:01. | :43:02. | |
remarks brief. As someone who plans remarks brief. As someone who | :43:03. | :43:02. | |
to get married in June myself, I to get married in June myself, I | :43:03. | :43:03. | |
of legislation, forward. Myself and of legislation, forward. Myself and | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
Hazel, the choice of marriage in church is the choice I feel is right | :43:10. | :43:12. | |
for ourselves but I suspect there are others who don't feel that's the | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
right choice for themselves and go down the path of a civil | :43:19. | :43:21. | |
partnership. In terms of the quality it's good to see the latest member | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
of the women's and equalities commission doing his duty and | :43:26. | :43:29. | |
championing his cause so seriously, here on a Friday to make those | :43:30. | :43:35. | |
points, to note that perhaps some other members who like to talk on | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
the subject don't seem to have found time to join us. I think it will be | :43:40. | :43:45. | |
interesting, Ed Ling sent to a wider debate, perhaps the Minister could | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
reflect on the time that he has, there is probably a debate about | :43:50. | :43:53. | |
civil partnerships and marriage in the civil sense, obviously, | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
different in the civil sense those who wish to be married the religious | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
sense, if we continue that system, how we continue at and if it carries | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
on, it seems strange to retain it purely as those for -- something for | :44:08. | :44:14. | |
those in a civil partnership. Also, could be interesting if the | :44:15. | :44:20. | |
ministers remarks would reflect on the impact on the number of civil | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
partnerships from marriage being extended to same-sex couples. Given | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
that of course, civil partnership is originated from the idea of a | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
compromise, to give us that the member of East Worthing pointed to, | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
at the time it was felt that marriage couldn't quite be got | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
through in terms of same-sex couples but the said least gave them label | :44:44. | :44:51. | |
-- long-term protection. A family, suddenly discovering very Victorian | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
attitudes in relation to a loved one or a relative's same-sex | :44:57. | :44:59. | |
relationship, than they realise certainly go presidents might help | :45:00. | :45:03. | |
the modern terms of getting assets and property and a civil partnership | :45:04. | :45:06. | |
was brought into stop such behaviour and give people certainty that they | :45:07. | :45:09. | |
could have at least legal protection and then of course, a fewer years | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
back the momentous step made to equalise marriage in the civil sense | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
and provide that equality in terms of same-sex couples being able to | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
marry under the law in the same way as couples can Houara of the | :45:25. | :45:32. | |
opposite sex. I do welcome this bill, forward. I think it's right we | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
are having a debate about the types of relationship we recognised in | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
point, those who are elected looking point, those who are elected looking | :45:42. | :45:54. | |
for pleasure ships in a religious for pleasure ships in a religious | :45:55. | :45:55. | |
disappointed, a civil partnership sense may | :45:56. | :45:55. | |
would probably be viewed in many would probably be viewed in many | :45:56. | :45:56. | |
parts of the Church as almost equivalent. What might own personal | :45:57. | :46:07. | |
religious beliefs may be should not altered the legal definition of the | :46:08. | :46:17. | |
relationship. As I say, for us, I think we find in terms of the | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
Catholic Church and the Church of England, there are views on marriage | :46:22. | :46:25. | |
don't necessarily reflect the position of the law of the land | :46:26. | :46:29. | |
around marriage and that's been the case since 1833 when the context of | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
civil marriage was created. Finally I will say it is a sadness that as | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
it stands, it is unlikely I will have my mothers name on the marriage | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
certificate because I want to let the ministers speak and I am hanging | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
around until 2:30pm and topping legislation on that front, we may | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
have progress as well. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Many | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
congratulations to my honourable friend for introducing this bill. As | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
I understand it, he said this was the first time that he was ever able | :47:07. | :47:12. | |
to speak on a Private Members' Bill in this way. On his own. I | :47:13. | :47:17. | |
congratulate him, given that this is a bill about civil partnerships and | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
marriage for losing his virginity in this way, with this bill! May I pick | :47:23. | :47:30. | |
up a couple of points. He talked about the survey and the survey was | :47:31. | :47:39. | |
done in 2014 and that was during the time that the civil partnerships had | :47:40. | :47:44. | |
been introduced. There were 11 and a half thousand respondents, 76% | :47:45. | :47:51. | |
opposing extending a civil partnership, and what the government | :47:52. | :47:54. | |
is saying is that we want to see what happens and look at the data | :47:55. | :47:58. | |
before taking any further decisions in this matter. The honourable | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
gentleman said that marriage was seen as patriarchal and had | :48:05. | :48:11. | |
patriarchal and religious associations. I think that the | :48:12. | :48:13. | |
concept of marriage has moved on from when women were considered | :48:14. | :48:18. | |
chattel, civil marriage ceremonies as he will know or available to all | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
couples and have no religious element, in fact when I got married | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
a few months ago we had the Wizard of Oz playing and a ten man in the | :48:26. | :48:31. | |
registry office. And the civil servant money is can be personalised | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
by the couple. Which is exactly what we did to include their own | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
non-religious words and fouls and there is no requirement for a couple | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
to take vows to honour or would be to the end he will know the only | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
takes place in the presence of takes place in the presence of | :48:49. | :48:52. | |
witnesses and the ceremony includes the statutory declarations and | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
contracting words. It's no longer for everybody a religious and | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
patriarchal way of making a commitment to one another. As we are | :49:03. | :49:09. | |
all aware, the government has rightly taken great pride in | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
championing equality for all. There was the introduction of the same-sex | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
couples bill in 2013 and during the passage of the bill, the question | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
arose that the marriage would be available to same-sex couples, then | :49:25. | :49:27. | |
surely as a matter of equality civil partnerships should be open to | :49:28. | :49:32. | |
opposite sex couples? The honourable friend points out that at the time | :49:33. | :49:35. | |
the government considered the issue and decided that it would be a | :49:36. | :49:39. | |
mistake to rush to amend the civil partnership act at that time as | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
there would have been unknown and untested effects of a myriad of | :49:44. | :49:48. | |
legislation spanning areas such as pension, devolution issues, | :49:49. | :49:52. | |
international recognition, gender recognition and the law on adultery | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
and consummation, that had not been fully considered or indeed | :49:57. | :50:00. | |
identified. And this House at the time recognised that to invite such | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
risk would be irresponsible and that the offer seen issues that may arise | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
from legislation as with all issues that come from great legislative | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
change, will take time to identify, understand and account for, lest we | :50:13. | :50:17. | |
burden the public with expensive and ineffective laws. I mention the | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
honourable gentleman, the consultation and the amount of | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
people who replied saying they didn't want any change in the terms | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
of civil partnerships. It's worth knowing I think the honourable | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
gentleman who brought through this brilliant bill earlier on, as the | :50:38. | :50:45. | |
Minister said with real panache, he asked about civil partnerships. | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
There has been an 85% decrease in civil partnerships since 2013, in | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
2015 or 861 civil partnership scampered to buy thousands of | :50:58. | :51:05. | |
hundred and 46 in 2013. I am grateful. I understand what he says | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
but the fact is with all the potential legislative implications | :51:12. | :51:17. | |
of my bill, were no less and no different from the implications of | :51:18. | :51:23. | |
the same-sex marriage bill itself on laws that had to be changed. Which | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
was rushed through a space of months whereas we've had several years to | :51:28. | :51:31. | |
think about this, it's almost three years since the consultation and | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
they do repeat there was a big consultation before that will itself | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
for the majority at that stage said that they did want to see civil | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
partnerships extended to opposite sex couples. How much longer we | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
going to have to wait? I thank my honourable friend for his question. | :51:50. | :51:55. | |
He will know, as other members of the House was no, that there are | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
ongoing legal proceedings on this and I'm sure he would agree it's | :52:01. | :52:06. | |
right for the government to wait to see what happens in terms of the | :52:07. | :52:15. | |
Court judgement. I think that's firmly reasonable to say that given | :52:16. | :52:24. | |
that the cord is considering this, the government should wait and | :52:25. | :52:30. | |
oversee what happens. His bill would amend the civil partnership act | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
2004, so that opposite sex couples perform civil partnerships. It's | :52:35. | :52:39. | |
been highlighted, the honourable member has tabled this proposal | :52:40. | :52:42. | |
before, and in response, the government tabled its own amendment | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
to require full review of the operation and future of the civil | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
partnership back in England and Wales, once marriage became possible | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
for same-sex couples. One of the reasons the government moved its own | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
amendment was the fact the impact on demand first civil partnerships | :52:59. | :53:01. | |
caused by the extension of marriage to same-sex couples could not be | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
predicted. When civil partnerships were introduced there was a peak in | :53:06. | :53:09. | |
the first year and it only took a couple more years before the numbers | :53:10. | :53:13. | |
started to stabilise. The Coalition Government said at the time we | :53:14. | :53:17. | |
expect an early rush to marry for same-sex couples from 29th of March | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
2014 when the marriage for same-sex couple act came into force and for | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
there to be a similar initial peak in the number of same-sex couples | :53:28. | :53:29. | |
wishing to convert your same-sex leisure shipped to a marriage. The | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
Coalition Government also believed that some couples may take much | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
longer to decide between a civil partnership and marriage if they | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
wanted a legal belated chip or in particular, with a conversion to a | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
marriage was a step and wished to take and even now, it's still too | :53:48. | :53:51. | |
early to tell if this would happen in practice. But Madam Deputy | :53:52. | :53:58. | |
Speaker, this is not the only reason why the government now believes that | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
the proposals put forward by my honourable friend would require | :54:03. | :54:04. | |
significant further work and I would like to take each of these in turn. | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
The legislative complexity introduced by the change to the law. | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
The difficulty in estimating the size of the challenge and | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
successfully making such a change. Publications introduced by marriage | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
being that the volt battery, treatment of other overseas | :54:21. | :54:23. | |
relationships, the reaction of religious communities and | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
stakeholders, and finally, Parliamentary time during this | :54:27. | :54:35. | |
Parliament. Of course... Every single one of those considerations | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
he has detailed applied to the same-sex marriage act itself which | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
was got through these houses in a matter of months, three years on, | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
why is this an impediment? It's right that government... There | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
always a law of unintended always a law of unintended | :54:56. | :54:56. | |
consequences I am sure my honourable friend recognises and it's right the | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
government make sure that all avenues are looked at very | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
personally before making any further changes to the law. I don't think | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
that is an unreasonable position. You will note that marriage law is | :55:12. | :55:22. | |
an inordinately complex landscape. If we are to change the civil | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
partnership act to amend the definition of the civil partnership | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
so that the term river it appears and legislation means a relationship | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
tween both same-sex and opposite sex couples, then we would need to | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
carefully and methodically assess the impact of that change on all the | :55:37. | :55:40. | |
relevant legislation or that appears. We would need to check | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
every position in all relevant legislation to ensure it still works | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
as intended and if not, to provide for consequential amendment of that | :55:51. | :55:54. | |
legislation. To give the House is an indication of the complexity of this | :55:55. | :55:59. | |
task, policy decisions would need to be made by a number of government | :56:00. | :56:02. | |
departments and issues such as pensions and benefit entitlement, | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
same-sex couples entering into civil partnerships, the dissolution of | :56:09. | :56:10. | |
civil partnerships for same-sex couples and the right for same-sex | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
couples in relation to assisted conception. In each case, the | :56:16. | :56:16. | |
question would be... Order, order. 24th March, 2017. Workers rights, | :56:17. | :56:29. | |
maintenance of EU standards bill. Second reading. | :56:30. | :56:35. | |
Second reading, what day? 24th February. 24th February. Protection | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
of family homes enforcement and permitted doechl bill. Adjourn | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
debate on second reading. Permission of the member for Selly Oak now. | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
Objection taken. Debate to be resumed, what day? 3 February. | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
Registration of marriage bill, second reading. I beg to move now. | :56:57. | :57:02. | |
The question is that the bill be now read a second time. As many of that | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
opinion say aye. Of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. Modern | :57:07. | :57:15. | |
slavery transparency and supply chain bill Lords second reading. | :57:16. | :57:25. | |
Friday 24th March. Now. Objection taken. Second reading what day. | :57:26. | :57:33. | |
Friday 24th March. Vehicle noise limits enforcement bill, second | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
reading. Now. Object. Objection taken, second reading what day? | :57:38. | :57:48. | |
Friday 24th February. Kew Gardens bill, second reading. Not moved. | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
Health and social care national data guardian bill. Second reading. Now. | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
The question is that the bill be now read a second time. As many of that | :57:59. | :58:06. | |
opinion say aye. Of the contrary no. The ayes have it. I beg to move that | :58:07. | :58:13. | |
the House be now adjourned. The question is that this House now | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
adjourn. I am very grateful to have the opportunity to talk about what I | :58:20. | :58:28. | |
think is an important issue, as the House adjourns. Tonight in a cabin | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
in the car park of a small industrial estate under the | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
dilapidated railway arches in Bethnal Green, east London, Courtney | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
will be teaching a class as usual at the knowledge academy. He will be | :58:42. | :58:48. | |
teaching men and women from all backgrounds, ages and races, who all | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
have one thing in mind and that's passing the knowledge and becoming a | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
London cabbie. They want to leave behind zero hour contracts and | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
insecure casual work, they're sick of the minimum wage jobs in call | :59:02. | :59:06. | |
centres, labouring on building sites, stacking shelves or waiting | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
tables. They desperately want to get into more secure, better paid work, | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
the ticket to a better life for themselves and for their families. | :59:17. | :59:20. | |
And the reason why I call this debate and the reason why I mention | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
the knowledge academy is because it feels to me like it's pretty much | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
amongst the last night schools left in London. When my mother arrived in | :59:31. | :59:35. | |
the UK in 1970 from a small tiny village in Ghana, she was unskilled | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
and uncertain of her future. She worked as a home help and after she | :59:42. | :59:46. | |
finished work she went to our local college and traineds a as a typist. | :59:47. | :59:52. | |
30 years later, she retired from her role as a manager at Haringey | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
Council. What does this tell us, that a woman can start off with | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
nothing, and work up from being a Secretary to a managerial position, | :00:02. | :00:07. | |
earning a salary to support a family as a single bread winner? It tells | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
us that if we give people opportunities to get the skills they | :00:11. | :00:14. | |
need, they will go from strength to strength. The term social mobility | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
gets thrown around a lot here in the House of Commons. But it basically | :00:20. | :00:24. | |
means helping people to climb the ladder. Ordinary people don't care | :00:25. | :00:30. | |
about jargon like social mobility but they certainly care about | :00:31. | :00:34. | |
climbing the ladder. They're working two or three jobs. They're borrowing | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
too much money from the bank. They're borrowing from friends and | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
family. They're sleeping sometimes on floors or to save money on rent. | :00:44. | :00:49. | |
They want the security of a reliable job that can pay them a wage that | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
can support their family and here in London that's between 40-50,000 a | :00:57. | :01:03. | |
year. We have a proud history of adult education in this country. We | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
have a proud history of adult education in this country, | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
stretching back to the Earth century. In the 1820s, the | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
university was established of Birkbeck as were institutes in | :01:19. | :01:22. | |
Glasgow, Edinburgh, Liverpool and Manchester. The working men's | :01:23. | :01:31. | |
college opened. These institutions gave working class adults the chance | :01:32. | :01:36. | |
to gain the skills that they had not learned at school and certainly | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
would not learn at work. George Stevenson, the inVenter of the steam | :01:41. | :01:49. | |
engine was illiterate until the age of 18 and the product of night | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
school. I want to thank the University of Birkbeck that's doing | :01:57. | :02:00. | |
outreach work in my own constituency in Tottenham, I want to thank City | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
Lit an amazing institution and a gem, frankly, in the fabric of | :02:07. | :02:12. | |
London. Morley College, the workers educational association, and the | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
college of north-east London in my own constituency, and other | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
institutions across the country for the work that they do in keeping | :02:21. | :02:24. | |
this tradition alive. They're making sure that we don't lose the legacy | :02:25. | :02:30. | |
of Samuel Morley, John Ruskin and William Morris and the value of | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
learning for learning sake and they're helping thousands of modern | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
day educating Ritas gain confidence they need to flourish. I also want | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
to thank my honourable friend, my colleague, the honourable member for | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
Newcastle for establishing the all-party group on adult education | :02:50. | :02:57. | |
and pushing it up the agenda. According to Hansard since 2010 this | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
House has discussed education on 339 occasions. There has not been one | :03:03. | :03:08. | |
single debate on adult education, not one. Just a single question in | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
education questions back in October 2010. That's it. That's what this | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
place thinks of adult learning in this country. This total disregard | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
for adult education is not good enough. It's not good to say that if | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
you don't go to university, you can't progress, and you are limited | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
to a life of low paid work with no prospects of change. It's not good | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
enough to deny opportunities to the already marginalised and already | :03:39. | :03:41. | |
struggling and those who didn't have opportunities when they were growing | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
up. But the bottom line is that in this place we are totally obsessed | :03:47. | :03:51. | |
with the education policy of 16 and 18-year-olds. We are obsessed with | :03:52. | :03:57. | |
university entrants, we are obsessed with apprenticeships at the moment. | :03:58. | :04:01. | |
It's all about getting young people into university or into | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
apprenticeships, but education does not and must not end at 18. It's | :04:07. | :04:12. | |
more important to put this debate in the context of our times and that | :04:13. | :04:18. | |
context is Brexit, not least because we are set to lose the European | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
Social Fund which currently contributes between 50 and 100 | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
million to our colleges each year. Skill shortages already make up | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
nearly a quarter of all job openings according to the UK Commission for | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
employment and skills. 69% of all UK businesses are worried that they're | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
not be able to find enough people with the skills to fill job | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
vacancies. It looks like we are going to leave the single market, so | :04:46. | :04:50. | |
businesses will not be able to recruit from the continent to fluing | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
skills gaps. Much more will need to be done to reskill and retrain | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
people here in our own country to take up these jobs. As has been said | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
in this House so many times since June, the referendum result | :05:06. | :05:08. | |
highlighted the fact that there are many people out there who feel left | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
behind in places like Great Yarmouth, Blackburn, or Barking and | :05:15. | :05:18. | |
Dagenham here in London. The average earnings in Barking and Dagenham are | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
40% lower than the London average. In great Yarmouth, average earnings | :05:25. | :05:30. | |
are ?10,000, or 40% lower than the national medium. Blackburn has the | :05:31. | :05:36. | |
lowest - second lowest earnings of any UK city. There are growth | :05:37. | :05:42. | |
industries in this country. Look at programming and the digital sector | :05:43. | :05:45. | |
more generally, the construction sector is crying out for skilled | :05:46. | :05:49. | |
workers to deliver the infrastructure and homes our country | :05:50. | :05:53. | |
needs. There's a huge demand for engineers, especially in sectors | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
like biotechnology, in aerospace, professional services, consulting, | :06:00. | :06:03. | |
accountancy, also continue to grow. But my question is how are working | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
class people in these places going to access these sectors and get the | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
jobs where they can earn even the average salary? Never mind a | :06:14. | :06:18. | |
comfortable salary on which to support their family and enjoy a | :06:19. | :06:23. | |
good life. Millions of people are trapped in a low income, dead end | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
job with children and care responsibilities and they've been | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
shut out of adult education. I ask the Minister who I have spoken to on | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
a number of occasions and I am in the here in a partisan way on this | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
occasion because I know he cares about the issue, but I do ask him | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
and I hope I will hear from him what he is going to do about what I think | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
now has become a critical issue. By 2024 only 2% of people in employment | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
will have no formal qualifications. What exactly are the millions of | :06:57. | :07:00. | |
people who didn't get qualifications when they were young going to do? | :07:01. | :07:05. | |
What is the strategy for these adults? We want now to talk about | :07:06. | :07:12. | |
the 30-somethings, the 40-somethings, the 50-somethings, in | :07:13. | :07:16. | |
a country in which we are living longer and longer, how are these | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
people going to access education? And accessing education in a context | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
where we can't expect them to go to university and pay 9,000 a year, | :07:27. | :07:30. | |
that's unrealistic to drop your life to not support your kids in order to | :07:31. | :07:37. | |
do that. We have an hourglass economy in this country with a | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
shrinking middle section and a section of society trapped at the | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
bottom. Heave huge structural problems, especially the loss of | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
manufacturing and a fail yaur to replace these breadwinner jobs. This | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
is not Europe's fault. This is not the fault of free movement. Or of | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
migrants who come to this country to work. It's the fault of successive | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
governments, both Conservative and Labour. So what's the context that I | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
think the Minister has to address? Well, the association of colleges | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
has warned that adult education will disappear by 2020 at this rate. The | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
total number of adult learners fell by 10. 8% in just a single year | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
between 2014 and 2015. We have had 40% cuts in real terms to adult | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
skills budgets between 2010 and 2015 and spending on non-apprentice parts | :08:29. | :08:31. | |
of the budget fell by a staggering 57%. The Government published its | :08:32. | :08:38. | |
60-page post 16 skills plan Alastair July. You will see a couple of | :08:39. | :08:42. | |
paragraphs dedicated to adults. It says education and training need to | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
become a more important part of adults lives. The Government's plan | :08:47. | :08:52. | |
promise to outline a plan for life long learning by 2016 but it didn't | :08:53. | :08:55. | |
appear. I asked the Minister's office when this plan was | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
forthcoming but I haven't had a reply yet. I hope we hear from the | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Minister on that subject. This Government office for science has | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
said life long learning and challenges of an ageing population | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
are an urgent issue for public policy in the UK. The range of | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
courses on offer has narrowed to basic skills and English for | :09:15. | :09:20. | |
speakers of other languages. Only 4900 adults achieved level four | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
awards or above. Under the education budget in 2015 a 36% fall in one | :09:27. | :09:34. | |
year. So a 75% fall in two years. I ask the Minister where is the | :09:35. | :09:37. | |
strategy, where is the investment, where are the ideas? Don't get me | :09:38. | :09:42. | |
wrong, this situation has been cause by funding cuts and the political | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
neglect of successive governments. Labour implemented union learn of | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
which I am very proud and was proud to be a skills Minister that worked | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
on that. We also had a focus on basic skills, English and maths, | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
hugely important for adult who is do not have the basics to move on. We | :09:59. | :10:04. | |
implemented train to gain to give employers huge budgets, millions of | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
pounds to train up their staff. On reflection, I am not so sure about | :10:09. | :10:11. | |
that programme and the reason I say that is because I think there is now | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
a lot of evidence, employers don't train you to leave. And that's why | :10:17. | :10:22. | |
you need to empower adults themselves to take up these courses. | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
We need a national strategy led by a Minister working across departments, | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
because the benefits of adult education have a huge impact on | :10:32. | :10:34. | |
employment, health outcomes and our GDP. In the coming years the | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
Government will be devolving control of skills funding, so we will need | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
to ensure that we don't end up with a patchwork across the country. | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
Britain can't afford that outside the European Union. I hope the | :10:46. | :10:48. | |
Minister might say something about that. The Government are bringing in | :10:49. | :10:53. | |
a ?3 billion apprentice levy, will some of that be allocated to adult | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
education? I hope the Minister might address that. The present system is | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
humaningly unbalanced, if you decide to go to university at 18 the | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
Government offers an open ended commitment to fund tuition feeses | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
and living costs and you pay it back if you earn over a certain | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
threshold. Where is The Support for adult learners and those going | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
through technical education? The answer is not the advance learning | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
loans. They're not working. In 2015 only 140 million loans were taken up | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
out of a total budget of just under 400 million, that was set aside. In | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
my constituency only 38% of adult learners are taking out these loans. | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
Leaders in the sector have told me the uptake is not there because | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
people don't know about them. And if people do know about them the kind | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
of families we are talking about, the burdens of a loan when you have | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
kids to feed and other things things is too problematic. So we have to | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
think again. We may have to go back, if we are going back in time to life | :11:52. | :11:56. | |
before the EU, we may have to go back to subsidising again adult he | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
had kalths, that's not to be on the table if we think it's economically | :12:00. | :12:01. | |
of importance. The government needs to consider | :12:02. | :12:14. | |
what's been described as a tertiary education entitlement. Ignoring the | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
jargon, people are going to have to learn new skills and change jobs. | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
The jobs of the future haven't even been created. There is no way that | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
the education we get in our teens and early 20s can support people | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
through their lives. Creating a fund people can draw on throughout their | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
lives reflects the reality of the modern world and I call on the | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
Minister to consider a single tertiary education entitlement or a | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
similar sort of scheme. Madam Speaker, I want to finish by saying | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
this. Look across the country in our seaside towns, post-industrial towns | :12:51. | :12:56. | |
across the North, Midlands and Wales. In places like Boston, | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
Hartlepool, Bolton, the prevailing wind is to blame immigrants for our | :13:02. | :13:09. | |
problems. Taking jobs, houses, cool places, taking GP appointments but | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
in a country where people are trapped in low income, low skilled | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
work and don't see a way out, we are playing a very dangerous game if we | :13:19. | :13:23. | |
don't act. People are not trapped in low income jobs because of | :13:24. | :13:26. | |
immigrants, it's the fault of successive governments who have | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
failed to equip them with the skills they need to get on in a modern | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
economy. My fear and very real fear in deed is that if we don't act now, | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
the consequences down the line will be very great indeed and we will be | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
opening up a very dark chapter in our history. Thank you, Madam Deputy | :13:46. | :13:54. | |
Speaker. May I give my genuine congratulations to the honourable | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
gentleman for securing this debate. It is customary to see these things | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
but I really mean it. He knows the subject inside out, he cares about | :14:04. | :14:08. | |
it passionately, he raises some incredibly important points and I'm | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
glad he has put this on the agenda, on this issue, because adult | :14:14. | :14:22. | |
education is incredibly important. He mentioned the Brexit issue but | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
when people raise this issue with me I always say to people we've been in | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
the European Union for 20-30 years but governments of all persuasions | :14:32. | :14:36. | |
and businesses have hugely underinvested in skills and so this | :14:37. | :14:39. | |
idea that it's all been caused by Brexit, which you didn't say but | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
people say, is, in my view, not the case. I will talk a little bit | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
about... Loans have in going up and I am happy to send him the figures. | :14:51. | :14:57. | |
He talked about apprenticeships. Apprenticeships as he rightly | :14:58. | :15:01. | |
pointed out, it's not about 16-18, I get a lot of stick because people | :15:02. | :15:06. | |
say, not enough 16-18 -year-olds are doing apprenticeships but over 19 | :15:07. | :15:15. | |
euros, 377,960 apprentices over 19 started in 2015-16. That's a very | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
important part of the strategy of giving people, adults, the skills | :15:22. | :15:31. | |
that they need. My priority, the government's priority, as he said, | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
and I say often, creating a ladder of opportunity and making sure that | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
there are various rungs up the ladder that people can climb up, | :15:41. | :15:42. | |
with the government holding the ladder. The first rung of the | :15:43. | :15:51. | |
ladder, we have to have a national conversation and change the prestige | :15:52. | :15:54. | |
about skills and adult education in our country and he made the point, | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
rightly, and I didn't know this myself, the House of Commons is | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
hardly ever discussed at night school. And he can check with my | :16:06. | :16:08. | |
officials, even before I knew about this debate, when I got into this | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
post, I raised this issue and have done surveys asking for surveys and | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
evidence, which at the moment, there is not a huge amount. The other rung | :16:19. | :16:29. | |
of the ladder is having more widespread and quality provision, | :16:30. | :16:32. | |
addressing the skills needs of the nation, achieving social justice and | :16:33. | :16:37. | |
a sense of community and steering people to jobs and prosperity. | :16:38. | :16:45. | |
Social justice, because, whenever I have seen adult education centres | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
and the kind of people who go to them often come from very | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds and it's a bridge for them, it doesn't matter | :16:53. | :16:56. | |
whether it's cake making or a maths GCSE, it's a bridge for them to go | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
on to do further education and jobs and when I Sikh community, I don't | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
say that lightly either because in my experience, adults, community | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
centres, night school build social capital. -- and off when I say | :17:09. | :17:20. | |
community. That is why I believe in adult education, why I'm looking at | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
what we can do and as a government, we are trying to promote a | :17:26. | :17:30. | |
conversation about skills and nonacademic pants for young people | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
and adults through getting... And ensuring we have dedicated careers | :17:38. | :17:39. | |
advice all the way through and careers guidance. This is why we are | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
investing 77 million in the national careers service to make sure that | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
people have advice on what adult education they can do, what jobs are | :17:51. | :17:53. | |
available, skills and training they can do. A strong further education | :17:54. | :18:01. | |
sector is essential to ensure that everyone in our society is empowered | :18:02. | :18:07. | |
to succeed. We need to equip further education colleges to be high status | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
institutions that can confer similar advantages to traditional academic | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
institutions and apprenticeships that are seen to be as valuable as | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
going to the best universities in the world. The spending review come | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
per to previous years, I think it is recognised, we are protecting the | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
sector given the funding pressures and what had gone on in the past, | :18:30. | :18:36. | |
and the whole purpose of the technical and educational and | :18:37. | :18:38. | |
further education Bill is to expand the role of apprenticeships to | :18:39. | :18:43. | |
include technical education, making sure employers shed qualifications | :18:44. | :18:48. | |
as well as apprentice standards. -- shape qualifications. The levy, | :18:49. | :18:54. | |
taken in conjunction with the adult education budget, apprenticeship | :18:55. | :18:55. | |
funding, advanced learner loans, funding, advanced learner loans, | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
this will provide more funding to support adult further education | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
participation than at any time in our island's history. And the | :19:04. | :19:09. | |
flexibility we have introduced into the FT system will ensure local | :19:10. | :19:15. | |
demand will determine when and where learning is delivered and I want the | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
new institutions we are establishing to make sure that we consider the | :19:19. | :19:25. | |
benefits to the community of making evening classes available. I know | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
for instance at the National College for digital skills which I was | :19:33. | :19:34. | |
really pleased the honourable gentleman did so much to make | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
happen, is in discussion with the number of other colleges and | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
providers about utilising its top and help campus level one and two | :19:42. | :19:46. | |
courses outside of standard hours and during holidays. I share the | :19:47. | :19:52. | |
right honourable gentleman's keenness to maintain the tradition | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
of nights good learning and evening classes. As part of a survey into | :19:55. | :20:00. | |
adult and community learning that they recently commissioned, it's | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
emerged that evening classes are run in 1380 local centres. The survey is | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
slim progress but results so far received from 97 providers, around a | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
third providers use more than 40% of their budget for evening classes. I | :20:17. | :20:22. | |
think it is important to quote these figures. In 2015, ad of the 1.5 | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
billion for adult skills provision, the government provided 210 points 7 | :20:30. | :20:37. | |
million 315 providers community learning, hundred 39 local | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
authorities got 170 million, and there is more. 236 community | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
learning providers rated as good or outstanding by Ofsted. And I know in | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
my own, we have very good adult community learning in Harlow College | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
and in the adult community Centre. The reason I called the statistics, | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
is because yes, we need to do a lot more, yes there are problems but it | :21:06. | :21:14. | |
is not completely bleak. I am grateful. I want to make this | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
profound statement. Most are easy colleges up and down the country are | :21:19. | :21:23. | |
closed. At about eight o'clock in the evening. Most FE colleges are | :21:24. | :21:33. | |
engaged in 70-80% of their activity with young people and by that I mean | :21:34. | :21:40. | |
under 25 and whilst there is a course and community learning, it's | :21:41. | :21:43. | |
at a basic level, basic English, basic maths. If we are serious about | :21:44. | :21:51. | |
economy it will need to be at the economy it will need to be at the | :21:52. | :21:54. | |
higher levels and that's where the strategy is going to have to take | :21:55. | :22:03. | |
place. He is right because I see, I remember in Harlow College in the | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
1990s, if you went there in the evening you couldn't get a car | :22:08. | :22:08. | |
parking space because people were parking space because people were | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
doing adult night school learning, they are still but it's not as | :22:13. | :22:15. | |
extensive as it was and as he pointed out, it isn't just this | :22:16. | :22:20. | |
government of the last government, every government in the past has not | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
put in resources to this and it started in the 90s, as far as I | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
remember and now you can get a space at Harlow College in the evening. He | :22:30. | :22:35. | |
is right. That is what we are looking at. People's energy and | :22:36. | :22:44. | |
enthusiasm as he highlighted for evening classes or amongst the | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
principal drivers of lifetime learning. We will soon bring forward | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
some potential policy options from the current review that will enhance | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
a pathway that everybody in the nation can use to climb the ladder | :22:57. | :22:58. | |
of opportunity but it has to meet the priorities, meeting the skills | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
deficit, helping socially disadvantaged, being widespread as | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
much as possible, and being quality as well. I do except that the | :23:09. | :23:19. | |
problem has been getting worse in terms of skills, in the past 20 | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
years in a country, 20% of our long-term productivity gap with | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
Germany is due to lower skills levels. We are the only OECD country | :23:29. | :23:33. | |
were 16-24 -year-olds are no better at literacy and numerous than 55-65 | :23:34. | :23:40. | |
-year-olds. The two macro skills employers say are indispensable our | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
mouths and English, we are giving adults the best opportunity to gain | :23:44. | :23:47. | |
qualifications in English and maths by fully funding all adults to | :23:48. | :23:51. | |
achieve their first level qualification, be that. Skills or | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
GCSE as well as other qualifications which up and get to that level and | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
we know that investment in maths and English provide substantial social | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
and economic returns that are beneficial to the individual, | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
families, workplaces and communities. And the economy. I | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
mentioned that advanced learner loans have gone up, I think they are | :24:13. | :24:20. | |
an important offering to people to do adult courses, available to | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
thousands of adults, aged 19 and above, studying levelled 3-6, | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
accessing nonsupport to help the meat upfront fees, removing one of | :24:31. | :24:37. | |
the main areas to learning. Now, I highlighted that community learning, | :24:38. | :24:42. | |
takes place often in excess of the local venues like children's | :24:43. | :24:47. | |
centres, libraries, community centres and reaches those | :24:48. | :24:49. | |
need and the most disadvantaged. The need and the most disadvantaged. The | :24:50. | :25:09. | |
and physical health, more confident including better self-esteem, mental | :25:10. | :25:10. | |
and employment and confidence to her bonding, formal | :25:11. | :25:10. | |
and employment and confidence to apply for jobs. We note that FE | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
works, the destination of adult students who complete courses, 64% | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
get job, 30% go into further learning, four percent into | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
learning, at level two macro earnings are boosted by 11%, | :25:24. | :25:27. | |
increasing the chance of being employed by two macro percent. 40 1% | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
of level two students live in areas of educational disadvantage, 34% | :25:35. | :25:44. | |
progress to higher education. In conclusion Madam Deputy Speaker, we | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
have to be proud of these institutions. I said out of 385 | :25:50. | :26:02. | |
colleges, 19% were outstanding. My own college and adult and community | :26:03. | :26:05. | |
learning Centre which shipped my own views as minister. It has shown me | :26:06. | :26:12. | |
how the education system must be part of evening up the odds for | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
those who are disadvantaged and I intend to visit more as the | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
fundraising takes root and relay over the proposals in the future. | :26:22. | :26:28. | |
The question is that this House to now adjourn. As many as are of that | :26:29. | :26:33. | |
opinion say aye. To the contrary no. Order, order. | :26:34. | :26:37. |