18/01/2017 House of Commons


18/01/2017

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including an Urgent Question on human rights in Myanmar and general debate on exiting the EU.


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THE SPEAKER: Order. Urgent question, Paul Scully.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker, to ask if I can ask the Minster, if he can make

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a statement on human rights in Burma. THE SPEAKER: Minster from the

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Foreign Office. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

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Mr Speaker, I know that you your Sevacare very deeply about the

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situation in -- that you yourself care deeply about the situation in

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Burma. I'm grateful to my honourable friend for raising this matter in

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the House. He knows Burma very well and has close family connections

:00:43.:00:48.

there. We have been deeply concerned about the flare up of violence since

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the attack by unknown assailants, presumed to be militants on 9th

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October. Whilst we condemned the attack, and recognise the need for

:00:59.:01:03.

security forces to carry out security operations to route out the

:01:04.:01:07.

perpetrators we remain concerned about the conduct of the Army in

:01:08.:01:11.

response. Although restrictions on media, diplomatic and humanitarian

:01:12.:01:14.

access make the facts difficult to ascertain, we have been concerned by

:01:15.:01:19.

numerous reports alleging widespread human rights violations in the

:01:20.:01:22.

security response. Mr Speaker n response to the escalating violence,

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British ministers have directly lobbied Burmese ministers, the

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Minister of State for Commonwealth affairs raised the issue with a

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Minister of Defence when she visited Burma in November last year.

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Specifically she called for the full and immediate resumption of aid and

:01:39.:01:42.

called for an investigation into allegations of human rights' abuses.

:01:43.:01:48.

I too, repeated those calls with the minister for construction, when he

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visited the UK in November last year. The Government of Burma has

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now committed to investigating the 9th October attacks, restoring human

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rights' access and investigating allegations of human rights abuses.

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However, in practice, much of the aid is still blocked by local

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authorities, reporting the military, especially in the area, where

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security operations continue. We will continue to monitor the

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situation closely. Turning to the conflict in other areas, we are

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concerned by the recent escalation of conflict in those two states.

:02:19.:02:24.

This, too, has led to allegations of civilian casualties, widespread

:02:25.:02:27.

displacement of civilians and human rights abuses. We also raised

:02:28.:02:32.

concerns on the violence in north-east Burma directly with

:02:33.:02:35.

Burmese ministers, as I said, we continue to monitor the situation

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closely and I can tell the House that my right honourable friend, the

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Foreign Secretary l visit Burma very soon and reiterate our concerns

:02:44.:02:46.

across these issues Thank you, Mr Speaker and thank you to the

:02:47.:02:49.

minister for that response. The first question I asked in this House

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was about the situation faced by the community there, the Rohinga

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community. It is frustrating that I return to the subject, following a

:03:00.:03:03.

number of worrying reports of the kind. The last two, of which

:03:04.:03:08.

reportedly involved air strikes and the use of Hovery oar tillry. Since

:03:09.:03:13.

then, a remarkable election victory has taken place. Does the minister

:03:14.:03:17.

agree with me, that although she has a difficult it is a income keeping

:03:18.:03:20.

the Government together, while there is such a huge influence by the

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ministry. We friends, such as the UK should continue to raise

:03:26.:03:28.

humanitarian issues while so many suffer because of their faith?

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Tomorrow, foreign ministers of the organisation for Islamic

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cooperation, an inter-governmental God body of 57 states will meet to

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discuss the situation there. Will the minister join me and more than

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40, civil society organisations who have today called for a truly

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independent, international investigation in a situation in the

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state, where state-sponsored attacks on the Rohinga Muslims have

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escalated. It is difficult to get accurate information for what really

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is happening in the state. So in order to get to the truth, beyond

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false reports, will he call for full access to indobservers and

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journalists to villagers and displacement catches? . -- camps.

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Elsewhere I'm informed that the United Nations special radioer pore

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tour on human rights there who has been on a 12-play monitorer mission

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has been denied access to the Government to conflicting areas of

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the state. Will the minister agree with me that she should be allowed

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to do her job and bring such issues into the open and finally, will the

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Foreign Secretary, when he visits Boyer a McThis weekend, raise the

:04:41.:04:46.

situation -- visits Burma this weekend, raise the situation and

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also with Burmese MPs and the Speaker of the House when they

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visit, the Burmese delegation visits the UK next week and can he also

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raise the issue with Bangladesh Government, as well, to see what

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more can be done on the border with Bangladesh, on a humanitarian

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response for Rohingas that have been We're deeply concerned at what is

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happening, and it is difficult to get access to verify the facts. Like

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him, we are extremely concerned by the violations, the human rights

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violations reported, and the security response itself. He asked

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about UK support for an international commission, I assume a

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UN type commission. A UN led commission of enquiry can be in one

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of three ways, by the Secretary General, by the Security Council or

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the human rights Council. Establishing this would require

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broad international support, which we assessed is not exist in the

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current international environment. He also asked about the visit, I

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very much welcome the visit of the UN special repertoire, I'm aware of

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the fact that she is currently in Burma, and for many years we have

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supported the annual resolution of the human rights Council that

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mandates her role. We very much hope that the authorities in Burma will

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give her full and unimpeded access so she can conduct an assessment. I

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look forward to reading her report. He has talked about the overall

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peace process and the aid that we're particularly providing. I can

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confirm that we are providing aid to refugees, not just to those in the

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area but also in Bangladesh. I have urged the Bangladeshis meetings I

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have had, due to the point that we should not have refugees return to a

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situation where they would face harm. Finally, he made in terms of

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the Foreign Secretary's visit. The Foreign Secretary will be putting

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the case from a UK perspective on humanitarian issues strongly, and as

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far as I'm aware, his intention is to meet the chief of the military

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and the country's leader. Thank you for granting this urgent question,

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and I congratulate the honourable member for securing it. All of us

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including many in this house who have campaigned for years for

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democracy and an to repression in Myanmar, it is troubling to see

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evidence that for the progress that is being made, the suppression of

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the majority Myanmar has been replaced in far too many patients

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with the -- too many cases with the persecution of minorities. It was

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shocking to hear of the recent disappearance of Kachin Baptist

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leaders, who have disappeared. It is incumbent on the government and the

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international community as a whole, to press the Myanmar authorities to

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provide information on their whereabouts and secure their

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immediate freedom. Also deeply concerned about the continuing

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humanitarian crisis, particularly the recent reports from the United

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nations and Human Rights Watch, stating that a raft of human rights

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abuses have taken place including torture, rape and sexual assault.

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Summary executions and the destruction of mosques and homes.

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Upholding human rights should be the driving force of our foreign policy,

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and recall on the government to see Britain's stand up for the rights

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and freedoms that all human beings are entitled to, and raises concerns

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as a matter of urgency for the authorities in Myanmar, including

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the persecution that people are suffering, and a needle for

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humanitarian access to all areas. I hope the Minister can tell us today

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-- the need for. Particularly around the access for the UN reported

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reporter, and how he's planning to make sure that the rights of its

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people are protected. I think the honourable lady for those comments.

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Having discussed the situation here previously, I know she cares very

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deeply about the humanitarian issues in Burma, and I think there is

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consensus across the house on these matters, Mr Speaker. She raised the

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issue of the pastors. Many Christians live in areas where there

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is active conflict, notably in that area. We are of course deeply

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concerned, specifically by the disappearance of a two pastors,

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Dumdaw Nawng Lat and Langjaw Gam Seng. And we do believe that there

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is deep concern about their welfare, and as she noted, they disappeared

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on Christmas Eve. Allegedly after talking to journalists, taking

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journalists to see a recently bombed church. We upstage the urge, as does

:10:03.:10:08.

she, the government of Burma to investigate the case immediately and

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release them. She talked about what the UK Government is doing in terms

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of lobbying. I noted that the Foreign Secretary will be in Burma

:10:17.:10:21.

soon, he will of course make strong representations on behalf of the UK

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Government. Apart from representations that I and other

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Foreign Office ministers have made, could I also add that our ambassador

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has visited in recent months, and lobbied five separate Burmese

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ministers on this issue, urging restraint in terms of the security

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response. Finally, she talked about humanitarian aid, as she will know

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the UK Government is doing an enormous amount in terms of

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providing aid in this troubled area. And certainly in terms of a

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particular error, since 2012 we have provided over ?23 million in him out

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and assistance -- that particular area, including sanitation and

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nutrition for several hundred thousand people. When the Foreign

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Secretary travels to Burma, he will know doubt wish to discuss with

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leaders the role of, whether it is worthwhile as continuing running

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some courses for them and the efficacy of those courses, and also

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whether or not they're continuing to block aid going into some of these

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errors. Can I urge my honourable friend to intern at the Foreign

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Secretary that when he does go there, the Foreign Secretary travel

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to that area to see for himself that situation on the ground, talk to'

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and come back to his house and updaters as to whether there is now

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real evidence that there are outside forces stirring up the Rohinga now

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part of Burma. I think my honourable friend for those comments, and I

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know that he an expert this area, having been Minister for this part

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of the world when he is at the Foreign Office. In terms of the

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Foreign Secretary's visit, as I said, I have set out the key

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individuals that the Foreign Secretary plans to meet, and clearly

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we all look forward to his response when he returns to this house. --

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this House. He talked about the work we may be doing with the military.

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In terms of training. Can I make clear that any training we undertake

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has nothing to do with combat training, it is to do with the

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humanitarian, English-language, and our assessment is that this is a

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worthwhile thing to be doing in terms of building those links. As he

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knows full well, the leader is of course in a position in government,

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but the Army has a role to play and clearly it is the Army acting in

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these areas whether I humanitarian issues. I congratulate the

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honourable member for achieving the support and emergency question. The

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Minister has expressed concern about the disappearance of the two Baptist

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leaders who apparently forcibly disappeared over Christmas, and also

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called for unfettered access for the United Nations special envoy. Can he

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performance -- confirm that specifically these have already been

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raised with the Burmese ambassador in London, and secondly that the

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Foreign Secretary will both raise the specific matters in the talks is

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having in Burma in the next week? Lastly, the minister rather

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sidestepped the question of action in the UN by saying that the

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government's opinion wasn't -- was that there wasn't a sufficient

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consensus at the present time to take forward action. Can he go

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further than that? When the special reporter returns to the UN and

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reports, will be undertake on behalf of the government to use every

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possible effort to build a consensus that can build an urgent and

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independent United Nations enquiry, a commission which will be the

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result of the special reporter's visit? Will the government committee

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trying to build that consensus is exposed -- as opposed to remarking

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that it doesn't exist? Mr Speaker, he talks about representations that

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UK Government is and has been making to the Burmese government. As I

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noted, we have made representations both at ministerial level and

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ambassador level. He talks about the representations at the Foreign

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Secretary will make. Clearly, I will ensure and am sure he will be aware

:14:56.:15:01.

of what is said and this house, but I know that the Foreign Secretary

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cares deeply about Burma, and the fact that he's going out there very

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soon should give the gentleman a great deal of comfort. He talks

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about the UN, of course I stated position in terms of UN. We support

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the UN special reporter, and specifically in terms of the human

:15:22.:15:25.

rights Council, as you know that is again an area where we have been

:15:26.:15:29.

supported, but this is about building multilateral support for

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actions, and that is where we seek to work together with other

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partners. Years ago, I organised a debate from Westminster Hall about

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the persecution of people, a long-standing very serious

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situation. These people gave us loyalty during the Second World War,

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and have been repaid with persecution ever since. I wonder

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what further steps the government can raise about this persecution and

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ensure their human rights are protected? Mr Speaker, we all care

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very deeply about human rights wherever they may be affected. And

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of course, if my right honourable friend wants to write to me, I'll be

:16:20.:16:23.

very happy to take up that specific issue. I make the general point that

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human rights absolutely happens to -- matters to this house, government

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and the British people, and that'll be at the forefront everything this

:16:31.:16:37.

office does. Undoubtedly there is reason for concern at the military

:16:38.:16:42.

crackdown on the Rohinga Muslim minority. I understand it has been

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made clear that she welcomes the international community's support

:16:50.:16:53.

and efforts in seeking peace and stability. And building better

:16:54.:16:59.

relations with communities. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be

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focusing on that on his visit and also I wonder what... She's on her

:17:06.:17:14.

fifth information gathering visit, is the Foreign Secretary intending

:17:15.:17:26.

to speak with the special reporter? With regard to the Foreign Secretary

:17:27.:17:32.

speaking to her, I will of course make sure that the Foreign Secretary

:17:33.:17:35.

is aware of that request that she has made. But in terms of our

:17:36.:17:44.

ongoing dialogue, she will know that the advisory commission led by Kofi

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Anand was put in place last year, and they are due to reduce a report

:17:49.:17:57.

this year. -- due to produce. I have been in conversation with Kofi

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Anand, we have had a number of conversations about the ongoing

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work. In terms of what we do, in terms of engaging with the

:18:05.:18:06.

international community and others in Burma, I hope she will appreciate

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that this is a very clear example of an engagement.

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Does my honourable friend gentlemen the unwelcome radicalisation of the

:18:26.:18:31.

Rohingya was only a question of time. That time was short and needs

:18:32.:18:35.

to be treated appropriately with a sense of urgency.

:18:36.:18:41.

Mr Speaker, we, of course, bring a sense of urgency to all the work we

:18:42.:18:45.

try and do, in relation to human rights. At the end of the day,

:18:46.:18:49.

though, this is a process which has sadly been ongoing for some time, I

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think this is a question of continuing to work together with

:18:53.:18:57.

international partners and engineers and others in Burma itself and

:18:58.:18:59.

continuing to make those representations. As I said, the

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Foreign Secretary hopes to meet with the chief of the army when he is in

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Burma and hopefully will have an opportunity to make our points very

:19:10.:19:16.

clear in that case. I welcome the minister's indication

:19:17.:19:19.

in respect of the Foreign Secretary's visit. Will the Foreign

:19:20.:19:23.

Secretary make it clear when he is in Burma that the interests of this

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House doesn't just extend to seeing continued transition in rule but to

:19:28.:19:30.

seeing a real transformation in temples rights and the best way for

:19:31.:19:34.

that to begin is credible investigation at an international

:19:35.:19:39.

level, with reliable adherence to any robust recommendations and

:19:40.:19:41.

findings that that investigation brings. Well, yes, Mr speaker, in

:19:42.:19:52.

terms of the of the investigation, I noted the Commission that has been

:19:53.:19:55.

established and led by Kofi Annan will hopefully come forward and set

:19:56.:20:00.

out very clearly their thoughts, as an independent commission, and it is

:20:01.:20:12.

one that we support. Can I talk about thetragedy last week, where

:20:13.:20:16.

4,000 people fled for their lives, particularly women and children who

:20:17.:20:20.

had been moved on before and need unfetterred access to humanitarian

:20:21.:20:24.

aid but particularly again draw attention to the two bapist pastors

:20:25.:20:28.

that surely, they must do all they can, with the UN, to get the

:20:29.:20:32.

information that family members need and not to accept apparently the

:20:33.:20:40.

approved response of "enforced disappearance" which is in contrary

:20:41.:20:44.

to all international human rights. I know my great friend is a great

:20:45.:20:47.

champion of human rights, particularly those of minorities

:20:48.:20:50.

around the world and he puts his point eloquently in terms of the

:20:51.:20:55.

pastors. We'll continue to make representation in terms of specific

:20:56.:21:00.

aid, I did mention that the UK has provided this ?18 million in

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essential humanitarian and health care systems and that, of course has

:21:04.:21:10.

been in Chachin and northern states as well over the past four years.

:21:11.:21:16.

Could the minister, confirm what discussions he and his department

:21:17.:21:20.

have had with other governments regarding getting medical assistance

:21:21.:21:24.

into the area and if so, could you update on that, please? Mr Speaker,

:21:25.:21:30.

we seek to work, firstly, in terms of the discussions that we have had,

:21:31.:21:36.

with other governments, our ambassador, of course has

:21:37.:21:39.

discussions locally in Burma with our counterparts and in terms of the

:21:40.:21:42.

support that we are getting, I talked about some of the numbers in

:21:43.:21:47.

terms of the amount of money we are spending but also in terms of what

:21:48.:21:51.

that money is being spent on, and of course we seek to work with NGOs and

:21:52.:21:56.

indeed others, on the ground, to make sure that funds are getting

:21:57.:22:01.

through, where they are needed, in these troubled areas.

:22:02.:22:07.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm sure the minister will agree with me that the

:22:08.:22:13.

gross in seeing improved human rights has been painfully slow in

:22:14.:22:16.

Burma since the election that we hoped to bring far more,

:22:17.:22:18.

particularly with the flawed constitution that still expects. I

:22:19.:22:21.

welcome the Foreign Secretary's visit but can he update House in

:22:22.:22:25.

terms of what engagement we are having with regional partners to

:22:26.:22:28.

build the consensus we need fourth action through the UN? With, Mr

:22:29.:22:35.

Speaker, as I've said on a number of occasions already, we discussed

:22:36.:22:38.

these matters with a range of actors. Of course, international

:22:39.:22:43.

partners but as I said, right now, it is the Kofi Annan commission, the

:22:44.:22:47.

independent Commission which is leading work in this area, and we

:22:48.:22:52.

will continue to have a dialogue with Mr Annan, and look forward to

:22:53.:22:57.

his report. Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I join

:22:58.:23:02.

the minister in paying tribute to your interest and work on behalf of

:23:03.:23:08.

the Burmese people over many years and we all welcome Burma moving out

:23:09.:23:12.

of the long dark years of military dictatorship. But we hopped they put

:23:13.:23:16.

behind them communal and religious conflict as well. So will the

:23:17.:23:20.

minister make very clear to the Burmese authorities that their

:23:21.:23:23.

welcome reentry into the international community will not be

:23:24.:23:28.

helped if they fail to protect minorities and particularly the

:23:29.:23:34.

Rohingya community? Mr Speaker, the right honourable gentleman, of

:23:35.:23:37.

course makes a number of very important points. Can I just say to

:23:38.:23:43.

him that firstly, in terms of the work that is going on, and in terms

:23:44.:23:49.

of what has happened since the election, he will be aware that the

:23:50.:23:54.

new Burmese Government released 300 political prisoners and they did

:23:55.:24:00.

begin the abolition of laws and initiated the peace talks I talked

:24:01.:24:04.

about and revised the committee led by Kofi Annan. I think we have to

:24:05.:24:10.

give a huch amount of credit for Aung San Suu Kyi for the work she

:24:11.:24:14.

has done in he had looking Burma. I agree with him, we need to keep

:24:15.:24:19.

pressing on humanitarian issues and press so the rights of minorities

:24:20.:24:23.

are respected but as he will know, the military does remain heavily

:24:24.:24:27.

involved in Burmese politics and they wrote the 2008 constitution

:24:28.:24:31.

which grants them 25% of seats in Parliament, unelected.

:24:32.:24:36.

Thank you Mr Speaker, the minister earlier said with regards to having

:24:37.:24:40.

an independent UN investigation, into this matter, initially there

:24:41.:24:45.

needs to be a consensus, then the minister said we will work together

:24:46.:24:49.

with others for a consensus but account minister go a step further

:24:50.:24:52.

to the answer he gave to the right how many for Gordon to rather rather

:24:53.:24:56.

than working with others, the UK will lead the way in building that

:24:57.:25:01.

consensus as a permanent members of the United Nations Security Council?

:25:02.:25:05.

Mr Speaker, can I give a specific example in terms of the work we are

:25:06.:25:09.

doing and supporting in terms. U in. There are a number of UN mechanisms

:25:10.:25:13.

already in place, including, as I said earlier the human rights

:25:14.:25:17.

council resolution which we support. This mandates the role of the UN

:25:18.:25:22.

Special Envoy on Burma who is presenting visiting and we look

:25:23.:25:26.

forward to her report. And as I have said already, we call for her to

:25:27.:25:34.

have a full and unfetterred access so she can carry on her work? Given

:25:35.:25:39.

the range of access issues that UN staff and missions have had in

:25:40.:25:43.

recent times, can I ask the minister what discussions the foreign and

:25:44.:25:46.

common wealth office have had with their counterparts in the Security

:25:47.:25:48.

Council to ensure that UN staff are given full and proper access to

:25:49.:25:52.

areas of concern, wherever in the world they may be? Mr Speaker, we

:25:53.:25:58.

discuss these issues in terms of access to humanitarian rights, with

:25:59.:26:02.

count parts, both of course in the UN but on a more by lateral basis as

:26:03.:26:06.

well. Can I give her the assurance that when it comes to these issues,

:26:07.:26:10.

we do keep them at the forefront and we'll continue to make the

:26:11.:26:14.

representations of the type she's asking for. Mr Speaker, Parliament

:26:15.:26:19.

was rightly moved by the House arrest of a single exceptional lady,

:26:20.:26:23.

but as it hasn't been mentioned in this urgent question, the situation

:26:24.:26:27.

of the Rohingya people, hundreds are being attacked, many are being

:26:28.:26:32.

murdered. Their villages are being systematically burnt or destroyed.

:26:33.:26:36.

Many are being sold into slavery with the complicity of Burmese

:26:37.:26:41.

authorities. The very authorities of which treat the Rohingya as a

:26:42.:26:45.

non-people. Now, my honourable friend, the minister, has avoided

:26:46.:26:49.

the challenge from the right honourable member for Gordon and my

:26:50.:26:52.

honourable friend the member for Gillingham that it is not sufficient

:26:53.:26:57.

for the Government to cooperate, the Government needs to lead UN support,

:26:58.:27:02.

if these reports are true. So, for the third time, I ask the minister

:27:03.:27:08.

-- if these reports are true, if the Foreign Secretary comes back from

:27:09.:27:12.

Burma, validating all that has been said, will he, will the Government

:27:13.:27:16.

take leadership of the United Nations to make sure that there is

:27:17.:27:19.

broad support and a resolution to follow? Minister? Mr Speaker, I pray

:27:20.:27:29.

forgiveness if I have given the impression I'm dodging the

:27:30.:27:31.

questions. That has not been my intention at all. The point that I

:27:32.:27:35.

have been speaking is we have to work together with partners to

:27:36.:27:38.

achieve an outcome and that's what we speak to do in this particular

:27:39.:27:41.

case. We continue to do that, I have given that assurance.

:27:42.:27:46.

Mr Speaker, my honourable friend, the member for West Ham and I have

:27:47.:27:50.

been approached by constituents who went to provide help directly to are

:27:51.:27:54.

hingia communities who need it, both in Burma and Bangladesh. He talked

:27:55.:28:00.

about access for NGOs, what routes are currently open for delivering

:28:01.:28:04.

help where it is needed and what advice can he give to those who do

:28:05.:28:08.

want to help people who are suffering such extreme problems at

:28:09.:28:13.

the moment? Mr Speaker, I thank the right honourable gentleman for that

:28:14.:28:17.

particular question. It is the case that this is a very troubled area.

:28:18.:28:25.

And the humanitarian access that has been get through has also been quite

:28:26.:28:29.

limited in some of these areas, what I would say to him if outside this

:28:30.:28:35.

house we can have a discussion on specifics I will be happy to see

:28:36.:28:39.

whether we can take thisser matter forward.

:28:40.:28:45.

In response for a parliamentary committee, the Foreign Office has

:28:46.:28:49.

revealed they have pent ?300,000 and more on training the Burmese army.

:28:50.:28:54.

Wouldn't that be better spent on exposing and verifying human rights'

:28:55.:28:59.

violations? Mr Speaker, I know this question has come up before, but can

:29:00.:29:02.

I confirm once again to the honourable gentleman, that the MoD

:29:03.:29:05.

does not provide combat training, as I said earlier, what we are doing is

:29:06.:29:10.

providing educational training to the Burmese military in the form of

:29:11.:29:13.

programmes delivered by the defence academy of the UK on the role of the

:29:14.:29:18.

military in a democracy, in terms of leadership and English language

:29:19.:29:21.

training and we really do belief this is a useful thing to do in

:29:22.:29:26.

terms of engaging the next generation of army in Burma.

:29:27.:29:33.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Like other members, I have been contacted by

:29:34.:29:37.

constituents who are deeply concerned by the treatment of the ro

:29:38.:29:43.

hingia community, often described as the world's most persecuted

:29:44.:29:46.

religious minority. What they struggling to understand is why

:29:47.:29:50.

having had years of this persecution taking place the brutality

:29:51.:29:53.

continues. The minister talks about the importance of building consensus

:29:54.:29:58.

within the United Nations, could he perhaps elaborate on what the

:29:59.:30:03.

barriers to consensus are and in particular, what our diplomatic

:30:04.:30:06.

efforts can do, with partners around the world, to break down the

:30:07.:30:14.

barriers? Mr Speaker, I think it is the case that successive governments

:30:15.:30:21.

here raised many issues which are long standing across the world when

:30:22.:30:25.

it comes to humanitarian and other issues. Of course this is another

:30:26.:30:29.

one we'll continue to do. I go back to the point I made earlier. At the

:30:30.:30:34.

end of the day this is about engagement, also will Burma,

:30:35.:30:36.

particularly with the Armed Forces and Armed Forces and I said the

:30:37.:30:39.

Foreign Secretary will hope to meet the army chiefs. What I think we can

:30:40.:30:44.

do is provide the humanitarian support, provide support to the

:30:45.:30:50.

elected Government and continue to have those conversations, in Burma

:30:51.:30:54.

itself, and also through our multilateral partners to make sure

:30:55.:30:57.

we keep this at the forefront, not just internationally but also in

:30:58.:30:59.

Burma. Can I commend you for the interest

:31:00.:31:07.

in this subject and bring it to the forefront of our man's everyday --

:31:08.:31:13.

our minds. In the last few months, the Burmese government have images

:31:14.:31:20.

for new laws for race and religion. Unfortunately, those laws were made

:31:21.:31:24.

to protect, but instead of protecting they have built

:31:25.:31:28.

unsurmountable hurdles for convergence and mixed marriages.

:31:29.:31:32.

Would the Minister agree that the disappearance of the two ministers

:31:33.:31:35.

is an indication of the daily horrors faced, and can he outline

:31:36.:31:43.

what representations have made on behalf of Christians? Freighter at

:31:44.:31:49.

the very name of Jesus? Responded to -- afraid to utter. The honourable

:31:50.:31:55.

gentleman made some powerful interventions, I know he cares very

:31:56.:32:01.

deeply about minorities, in particular the Christian community.

:32:02.:32:05.

We continue to make the case, both to the Burmese government, but also

:32:06.:32:10.

in an international forum, that these matters are absolutely vital,

:32:11.:32:13.

and that we need to make sure that there is no persecution of

:32:14.:32:18.

minorities of Christians, of any type of minorities in that country,

:32:19.:32:21.

and we'll keep doing that. I think it's important that we have this

:32:22.:32:25.

kind of debate in this House now, because it shows the international

:32:26.:32:30.

community that we care very deeply the whole House about this matter.

:32:31.:32:37.

The Burmese government's commission to investigate human rights

:32:38.:32:42.

violations against Rohingya found that there was insufficient evidence

:32:43.:32:46.

of human rights violations, which quite frankly I find given that they

:32:47.:32:51.

are continue to be one of the most persecuted communities. Can the

:32:52.:32:55.

Minister macro tell me what direct conversations he has had with the

:32:56.:32:59.

Burmese government to challenge the accuracy of this ridiculous report?

:33:00.:33:07.

Mr Speaker, I agree with the honourable gentleman. We've also

:33:08.:33:12.

noted the interim that has been produced, and as he has intimated,

:33:13.:33:17.

it indicates that they human rights abuses have taken place. And this is

:33:18.:33:21.

of course against the weight of testimony from a range of human

:33:22.:33:24.

rights sources, frankly this is not credible. We call on the commission

:33:25.:33:28.

to demonstrate the commitment made by the government to an impartial

:33:29.:33:31.

investigation over the coming weeks. Of course, we wait to see what the

:33:32.:33:36.

final report says, but I agree with him. The report needs to be credible

:33:37.:33:43.

for anyone to take it seriously. Could I take this opportunity, I

:33:44.:33:46.

went been the chamber tomorrow, I know you'll miss me, Mr Speaker. --

:33:47.:33:51.

I won't. I know it's your birthday, so if I could wish you an early

:33:52.:33:58.

happy birthday for tomorrow. Since the Bernie 's security forces

:33:59.:34:02.

started their campaign in October -- the Burmese, it is estimated that

:34:03.:34:12.

65,000 treble Muslims have fled. According to reports, there have

:34:13.:34:15.

been subject to arson, rape and murder at the hands of the military

:34:16.:34:19.

-- Rohingya Moslems. These allegations are incredibly serious,

:34:20.:34:22.

and it is for that reason I ask the Minister for the fourth time I

:34:23.:34:26.

believe, if he will continue to call for the establishment of an

:34:27.:34:29.

independent investigation into these claims. May I also wish you a happy

:34:30.:34:41.

birthday for tomorrow. I mean that most sincerely. Can I just respond

:34:42.:34:46.

to the honourable lady. I hope, Mr Speaker, I have made clear today

:34:47.:34:50.

that there are a huge number of avenues that we in the UK are

:34:51.:34:54.

pursuing, in terms of getting humanitarian aid, making the case

:34:55.:34:58.

for minorities, and actually making it very clear that we care very

:34:59.:35:02.

deeply about these matters. At the end of the day, that is something we

:35:03.:35:05.

will keep doing. Going back to this point about the approach from a UN

:35:06.:35:11.

perspective. There are a number of errors that the UN is already

:35:12.:35:15.

engaged, and will continue to work with those -- number of areas, to

:35:16.:35:19.

make sure that those resolution in this very troubled area. Mr Speaker,

:35:20.:35:25.

can he say what discussions he has had or will have with the government

:35:26.:35:29.

of Bangladesh about the refugee status of the Rohingya people, who

:35:30.:35:33.

have fled in many cases the most obscene violence in the state? I

:35:34.:35:44.

have raised the issue of the Rohingya in Bangladesh with the

:35:45.:35:47.

representatives of the Bangladeshi government before Christmas. As I

:35:48.:35:53.

said, the point that I particularly made to the government of Bangladesh

:35:54.:35:56.

was that they should not be seeking to return people who are seeking

:35:57.:36:01.

refuge back into danger. That is a really important point. In terms of

:36:02.:36:07.

aid, we're providing, the UK is the largest provider of food aid to the

:36:08.:36:12.

34,000 Rohingya refugees already living in camps in Bangladesh, and

:36:13.:36:21.

since 2014, the UK has provided nearly ?80 million -- ?8 million to

:36:22.:36:29.

the refugees and the communities that support them. I apologise for

:36:30.:36:33.

not being here in the beginning. I was meant to be in Burma this week

:36:34.:36:40.

with the mess was -- Westminster foundation. It has been delayed

:36:41.:36:44.

until May. They indicated 92 different parties other than the two

:36:45.:36:51.

main parties. With the Minister look at how someone like myself from

:36:52.:36:54.

Northern Ireland, the difficulties we've had there, we can look at how

:36:55.:37:01.

we can help some of those parties work together and the military learn

:37:02.:37:05.

to respect them, so that we find a way forward? Could be a great help

:37:06.:37:10.

to the Westminster -- if the Westminster foundation for democracy

:37:11.:37:14.

could have some help. I'm very happy to speak with a gentleman out of

:37:15.:37:17.

this debate about the work doing with the Westminster foundation. In

:37:18.:37:23.

terms of the discussions we are having, at the end of the day it is

:37:24.:37:30.

someone who is effectively leading the government, and we have contact

:37:31.:37:35.

with her. The Foreign Secretary of meat are soon on his visit to Burma

:37:36.:37:41.

with all the actors, particularly with our ambassador. -- to meet her

:37:42.:37:46.

soon. The key thing is engagement with military, at the end of the day

:37:47.:37:49.

they are the ones who are leading some of the issues, we have

:37:50.:37:54.

concerns, and I think it was vital that we engage. Order. Ten minute

:37:55.:38:03.

rule motion, Joan Ryan. I beg to move that leave the given to bring

:38:04.:38:08.

in a bill to require the Secretary of State to promote the

:38:09.:38:12.

establishment of an international fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace,

:38:13.:38:15.

to support coexistence projects and civil society programmes. Recent

:38:16.:38:25.

weeks has seen a flurry of activity on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

:38:26.:38:30.

The UN Security Council resolution and major speech by the US Secretary

:38:31.:38:33.

of State John Kerry and a further peace conference in Paris last

:38:34.:38:37.

weekend. The barriers to add two state solution are well-known. As a

:38:38.:38:41.

strong friend of Israel, I admit freely but great regret that these

:38:42.:38:46.

include the expansion of settlements on the West Bank. Settlement

:38:47.:38:51.

building is wrong. It threatens the viability of a future Palestinian

:38:52.:38:57.

state. The case for which is an arguable. It does immense damage to

:38:58.:39:00.

Israel's standing in the world, and over time it will put at risk that

:39:01.:39:05.

which is most precious about Israel's character, its Jewish and

:39:06.:39:11.

democratic character. As Secretary Kerry is stated clearly, settlements

:39:12.:39:14.

are not the whole, or even the primary cause of this conflict. So

:39:15.:39:20.

too is the incitement tolerated and in many cases perpetrated by the

:39:21.:39:23.

Palestinian authorities. The payment of salaries to those convicted of

:39:24.:39:28.

terrorist offences, and the naming of schools, streets and sports

:39:29.:39:33.

tournament after so-called martyrs, thereby glorifying violence. Then

:39:34.:39:37.

there is the greatest barrier of all, the rejectionist, anti-Semitic

:39:38.:39:42.

ideology of high Mass, Hezbollah and Iran, which denies Israel's very

:39:43.:39:48.

right to exist, and the terrorism which inevitably flows from it -- of

:39:49.:39:55.

Hamas. I believe it will help to address of the pernicious

:39:56.:39:59.

consequences arising from them. Instead, my Bill recognises that as

:40:00.:40:03.

example of Northern Ireland taught us, any peace process needs a

:40:04.:40:07.

political dimension, and economic dimension and a civil society to

:40:08.:40:12.

dimension. Coexistence projects that bring together Israelis and

:40:13.:40:17.

Palestinians to advance the cause of mutual understanding, reconciliation

:40:18.:40:21.

trust is that civil society dimension. The world has paid too

:40:22.:40:27.

little attention investing only around ?37 million per year in

:40:28.:40:31.

people to people projects for Israel and Palestine. That is less than ?4

:40:32.:40:36.

for each Israeli and Palestinian person each year. Britain

:40:37.:40:41.

exemplifies this problem. From spending a pitiful ?150,000 on

:40:42.:40:48.

coexistence projects in 2015 and 2016, the government despite

:40:49.:40:50.

repeated warm words to the contrary appears to have cut this funding

:40:51.:40:54.

altogether, in the current financial year. -- 2015-2016. I'm pleased that

:40:55.:40:59.

the Secretary of State for International Development seems keen

:41:00.:41:03.

to right this wrong. The absence of strong constituencies for peace in

:41:04.:41:07.

Israel and Palestine is one of the results. Polling by the Israeli

:41:08.:41:15.

democracy Institute and Palestinian Centre for policy and survey

:41:16.:41:18.

research last summer underlined the scale of the problem. While 59% of

:41:19.:41:23.

Israelis and 51% of Palestinians still support a two state solution,

:41:24.:41:27.

these already slim majorities are fragile, threatened by fear and

:41:28.:41:33.

distrust between the two peoples. 89% of Palestinians believe Israeli

:41:34.:41:38.

dues are untrustworthy, feeling reciprocated by 60% of the latter --

:41:39.:41:50.

Israeli dues. 45% of Palestinians fear Israeli dues. We should not

:41:51.:41:53.

place our heads in the optimism of the young. After all, this is the

:41:54.:41:58.

generation which has no memory of the optimism engendered by the Oslo

:41:59.:42:01.

accords, but his formative years have instead been marked by suicide

:42:02.:42:06.

bombings, and perpetual conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza.

:42:07.:42:12.

Even where the peace process in better health -- were the peace

:42:13.:42:15.

process, these would hardly be the most solid foundations upon which to

:42:16.:42:19.

build a lasting peace. We should recall that those seeds of the Good

:42:20.:42:23.

Friday agreement were sown at a cinema, inauspicious moment, when

:42:24.:42:28.

during the height of the Troubles, the International fund for Ireland

:42:29.:42:32.

was created -- at a similar inauspicious moment. Investment in

:42:33.:42:41.

grass-roots coexistent work has been spent in Northern Ireland. Over 5000

:42:42.:42:45.

projects have been supported since it was established to promote

:42:46.:42:49.

economic and social advance, and to encourage contact, dialogue and

:42:50.:42:53.

reconciliation between nationalists and unionists throughout Ireland.

:42:54.:42:58.

That investment helped provide popular support, which has helped

:42:59.:43:01.

sustain the Good Friday agreement over nearly two decades. With this

:43:02.:43:05.

example in mind, my Bill requires the government to promote the

:43:06.:43:10.

establishment of the proposed international fund for

:43:11.:43:13.

Israeli-Palestinian peace. This has been designed by the Alliance for

:43:14.:43:16.

middle East peace, a coalition of over 90 organisations building

:43:17.:43:21.

people to be a book operation, and coexistence. The fund aims to

:43:22.:43:25.

leveraged and increase public and private contributions worldwide,

:43:26.:43:31.

funding civil Society projects and joint economic development that

:43:32.:43:33.

promote coexistence, peace and reconciliation. It is envisaged that

:43:34.:43:40.

the $200 million per year fund, four times the current level of

:43:41.:43:44.

international support, for people to people work in Israel Palestine,

:43:45.:43:50.

would receive contributions of approximately 25% each from the

:43:51.:43:54.

United States, Europe, the rest of the international community

:43:55.:43:57.

including the Arab world, and the private sector. The fund is not, I

:43:58.:44:01.

should emphasise, intended to receive support that otherwise would

:44:02.:44:06.

be provided directly to either the Palestinian authority, or to Israel.

:44:07.:44:12.

We know that coexistence projects in Israel Palestine work. After two

:44:13.:44:15.

decades, there is now a significant body of evidence based on academic

:44:16.:44:21.

and government evaluations, indicating the impact that

:44:22.:44:25.

coexistence projects can have. The impact moreover has been achieved in

:44:26.:44:30.

the face of considerable challenges. According to the USA, those

:44:31.:44:34.

participating in people to people programmes report higher levels of

:44:35.:44:38.

trust, co-operation, more conflict Revolution values -- resolution

:44:39.:44:44.

values and less aggression and loneliness. Evaluation of individual

:44:45.:44:48.

programmes and alliances impact. A truly inspiring project which brings

:44:49.:44:53.

together young Israelis and Palestinians to learn about it

:44:54.:44:57.

technology and entrepreneurship found a 60% increase in the number

:44:58.:45:01.

of students who valued working with someone from the other side after

:45:02.:45:07.

just one year on the programme. The parents circle friends for common

:45:08.:45:10.

organisation of more than 600 Palestinian and Israeli families who

:45:11.:45:15.

have lost a family member in the conflict found that 70% of all

:45:16.:45:21.

participants had increased trust and empathy, and 84% were motivated to

:45:22.:45:27.

participate in peace building activities in their communities. I

:45:28.:45:33.

would ask if they could point anything in their current funding

:45:34.:45:38.

that has moved the conflict closer to resolution's if coexistence work

:45:39.:45:41.

is going to be held to a standard that demand that it demonstrates how

:45:42.:45:45.

it helps solve the conflict, then surely other strategies that have

:45:46.:45:50.

not by themselves moved the ball Ford should be held to the same

:45:51.:45:51.

standard? -- the ball forward. Support is growing and Cros

:45:52.:46:03.

international boundaries and political parties. The quaur Tote's

:46:04.:46:09.

quartet's most recent report recommended a focus on civil society

:46:10.:46:13.

work since the first time since its finding. The Vatican, Jewish

:46:14.:46:16.

organisations and politicians on both left and right in Israel have

:46:17.:46:22.

all raised their voices in support. On Capitol Hill, two US Congressman,

:46:23.:46:29.

have worked across party lines, introducing a bill in support of the

:46:30.:46:33.

international fund nshgts best traditions of US global leadership.

:46:34.:46:38.

In this House, 56 of my Labour colleagues, signed an open letter to

:46:39.:46:43.

the Secretary of State for International Development, last

:46:44.:46:44.

month, endorsing the fund and I'm delighted today to have the support

:46:45.:46:49.

of members from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties. I'm

:46:50.:46:52.

particularly pleased to have the right honourable member for

:46:53.:46:59.

Brentford and Ongar, the Chairman of Conservative Friends of Israel,

:47:00.:47:02.

listed as one of the support Is of this bill. The late Shimon Peres

:47:03.:47:13.

once said, "The way it make peace is not through government, it is

:47:14.:47:17.

through people." He knew even in the most challenging of times, we must

:47:18.:47:21.

never give up on the search for peace. By supporting my Bill, the

:47:22.:47:27.

House can underline its support for that search.

:47:28.:47:31.

Hear, hear. THE SPEAKER: Order, the question is

:47:32.:47:35.

in fact right honourable member have leave to bring in the Bill? As many

:47:36.:47:43.

of that opinion say aye. . Aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have T

:47:44.:47:48.

who will prepare and bring in the Bill? Mr Speaker, Ian Austin, Right

:47:49.:47:56.

Honourable Alistair car mikele, Chris Davy, Mrs Lieu weighs he

:47:57.:48:02.

willman,p Steven kinic. Right Honourable, Sir Eric Pickles, Will,

:48:03.:48:10.

Quins, Paul Skully, Stephen Twigg and myself, Sir. -- Louise Elman,

:48:11.:48:17.

Stephen Kinnock. Promotion of Israeli-Palestinian

:48:18.:48:51.

peace United Kingdom participation Bill. Second reading, what day? 24th

:48:52.:48:55.

March, Sir. 24th March. Thank you. Order. We now

:48:56.:49:02.

come to the general debate on exiting the European Union and

:49:03.:49:06.

security law enforcement and criminal justice.

:49:07.:49:12.

To move the motion, I call the Minster. Minster of State, Mr

:49:13.:49:17.

Brandon Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I do beg

:49:18.:49:23.

to move that this House has considered exiting the EU and

:49:24.:49:27.

security, law enforcement and criminal justice within that. I'm

:49:28.:49:31.

pleased to introduce today's debate on security, law enforcement and

:49:32.:49:34.

criminal justice, which is one of a number of debates we'll be having

:49:35.:49:37.

about our exit from the European Union. It is important that members

:49:38.:49:42.

of this House have the opportunity to discuss and debate leaving the

:49:43.:49:49.

EU. The Prime Minister underlined the importance of Parliament's

:49:50.:49:52.

involvement in exit negotiations in her speech yesterday. This

:49:53.:49:55.

afternoon, members have the chance to debate an area of our

:49:56.:49:59.

relationship with the EU that is crucial. Not only to our

:50:00.:50:03.

negotiations, but to continued safety of both Europe, ourselves and

:50:04.:50:08.

the citizens across Europe and the United Kingdom. This debate will

:50:09.:50:14.

focus on how we work with the EU on security, law enforcement and

:50:15.:50:17.

criminal justice now, and how we will work with our EU partners in

:50:18.:50:23.

the future. Cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism was one

:50:24.:50:27.

of the Government's core negotiating objectives. The UK is leaving the EU

:50:28.:50:33.

but as we have been clear, we are not leaving Europe. We are committed

:50:34.:50:38.

to strong cooperation on security, law enforcement and criminal justice

:50:39.:50:43.

now, and after we leave. We will work with our European partners, to

:50:44.:50:47.

find solutions which promote security across Europe, and beyond.

:50:48.:50:51.

The decision of the British people to leave the European Union does not

:50:52.:50:57.

altar the duty that we and all Member States share collectively to

:50:58.:51:00.

keep our citizens safe and to present our democratic way of life,

:51:01.:51:06.

and the rule of law. In the face of the common threats we face from

:51:07.:51:13.

terrorism, cyber attacks and who is Isle foreign actors, maintaining

:51:14.:51:16.

strong EU-UK security operation is vital to our collective success in

:51:17.:51:19.

keeping citizens safe. It is difficult to see how it would be in

:51:20.:51:23.

anyone's interests for exit negotiations to result in a

:51:24.:51:28.

reduction in the effectiveness of security, law enforcement and

:51:29.:51:30.

criminal justice cooperation. I give way to the right honourable

:51:31.:51:35.

gentleman. I'ms grateful to the minister for giving away and I have

:51:36.:51:37.

nothing to disagree with in respect of what he said so far. On this

:51:38.:51:42.

issue, we are leaders in Europe, as far as cooperation on security and

:51:43.:51:45.

justice. But does he awe gree with me, one of the most important

:51:46.:51:51.

aspects of this is information sharing and access to ECRAS should

:51:52.:51:57.

be one of the key elements of our negotiations, to be able to to reach

:51:58.:52:01.

those criminal records of those who committed offences in the rest of

:52:02.:52:06.

Europe, and to share information of those who commit those offences in

:52:07.:52:12.

our country. Well, I appreciate the right honourable gentleman's

:52:13.:52:13.

agreement with my position, so far, in this debate. He makes an

:52:14.:52:18.

important point. I will come very specifically to that. There is an

:52:19.:52:22.

issue around my understanding, which we all do in this House, that we

:52:23.:52:28.

live in a world of global work and people work in cross borders,

:52:29.:52:31.

particularly in criminality that we need to be well-equipped to do with.

:52:32.:52:36.

Criminality and terrorism is transnational and international

:52:37.:52:39.

groups exploit you will have nerments such as inadequate law

:52:40.:52:43.

enforcement and criminal justice struck you are toos. Threats we are

:52:44.:52:47.

facing, cybercrime which is moving quickly or online child sexual

:52:48.:52:53.

exploitation, are by definition, international in a technologically

:52:54.:52:56.

connected world. The UK's crime agencies, most recent public

:52:57.:53:00.

estimate suggests there are over 6,000 organised crime groups seeking

:53:01.:53:03.

to operate in the United king do. I give way. I'm grateful. Could he

:53:04.:53:09.

give me some reassurance on the issue of the European arrest

:53:10.:53:11.

warrant. Because, before the last election there was a debate in this

:53:12.:53:14.

House when the current Prime Minister, then the Home Secretary,

:53:15.:53:18.

was fighting very hard to get that European arrest warrant through this

:53:19.:53:21.

House in the face of some Opposition from some members. Could he give me

:53:22.:53:25.

an independencation that he will zur the powers of that arrest warrant,

:53:26.:53:30.

post-Brexit? -- that he will secure. I'm sure the right honourable

:53:31.:53:32.

gentleman will be very awhich are that we are at the start of

:53:33.:53:35.

negotiations. I can't predict the outcome of where we will end up but

:53:36.:53:40.

I will come specifically to the European arrest warrant and the

:53:41.:53:43.

implication it is has for us in a few moments. Criminal networks are

:53:44.:53:48.

driving migrant struggling. Europol estimate more than 09% of migrants

:53:49.:53:54.

travelling to the EU use facilitators, in most cases provided

:53:55.:53:59.

by criminal groups with an estimated turnover of ?3 to 6 billion in 2015.

:54:00.:54:03.

As I said to the honourable gentleman we are at the beginning of

:54:04.:54:07.

a complex process to agree a new relationship with the EU. This is

:54:08.:54:10.

new territory for both sides and it is way too early to say exactly what

:54:11.:54:14.

that relationship will look like but I'm sure there will be many, varied

:54:15.:54:18.

views expressed from around the chamber today and in the months

:54:19.:54:22.

ahead but I am confident that nobody will argue against the importance of

:54:23.:54:27.

fighting cross-border crime and depending security across Europe. I

:54:28.:54:33.

am happy to give way. Perhaps to reinforce that point,

:54:34.:54:36.

will he concede that what we are actually talking about is a system

:54:37.:54:40.

of European criminal justice cooperation. Much of this is about

:54:41.:54:44.

practical cooperation and information-sharing and does not

:54:45.:54:48.

actually largely, touch about the substantive criminal law of the

:54:49.:54:51.

stants sometimes extends beyond Member States of the European Union?

:54:52.:54:56.

Doesn't that reinforce the importance of this practical point?

:54:57.:54:59.

My honourable friend, as ever makes a really important point. He is

:55:00.:55:02.

absolutely right in what he says. Not least of all that in some of

:55:03.:55:06.

these organisations such as Europol, there are members and countries who

:55:07.:55:09.

are involved with Europol who are not part of the European Union,

:55:10.:55:13.

highlighting how they see the importance of make sure we are

:55:14.:55:16.

scaring information in an efficient and were active way to fight crime.

:55:17.:55:20.

It is absolutely right we work to ensure we protect that ability.

:55:21.:55:25.

Whatever shape our future relationship se. Takes, I hope that

:55:26.:55:31.

we can all agree it should knot compromise the safety of the people

:55:32.:55:34.

in the UK or the rest of Europe. I'm most grateful to my honourable

:55:35.:55:37.

friend for giving way. He will be aware that one of the consequences

:55:38.:55:41.

of leaving the European Union, as the Prime Minister has indicated, is

:55:42.:55:45.

that we withdraw from, as she puts it, from the jurisdiction of the

:55:46.:55:49.

European Court of Justice. But as he will be aware, many of these justice

:55:50.:55:55.

cooperation functions, ultimately, come under the you jurisdiction of

:55:56.:56:06.

the European Court. And I have to say that I find it difficult to

:56:07.:56:09.

understand what arrangement the government has in mind to address

:56:10.:56:11.

this issue, whether it wishes to have a separate tribunal system set

:56:12.:56:14.

up in order to apply the rules. Or what it envisages. Because,

:56:15.:56:18.

otherwise, even for states which are outside the EU, the ECJ is in fact

:56:19.:56:21.

very important in the rulings it gives on these key areas of security

:56:22.:56:27.

cooperation. Well, I do appreciate the point that

:56:28.:56:30.

my right honourable friend makes. And one of the pieces of work we are

:56:31.:56:35.

doing as we go through the negotiations is to make sure we get

:56:36.:56:40.

something that is bespoke for the United Kingdom. One of the things we

:56:41.:56:44.

have to do is look at what other countries have done, and other

:56:45.:56:50.

countries who work with Europol and the United States, are good example

:56:51.:56:54.

who are not members of the EU but have found ways to work with us.

:56:55.:56:59.

These are examples we can look at but we need to develop a bespoke

:57:00.:57:03.

system for the UK. In her speech yesterday, the Prime Minister set

:57:04.:57:05.

out what the Government's negotiation objectives are for

:57:06.:57:07.

Brexit. She explained how this Government plans it make Britain

:57:08.:57:09.

stronger and fair, restoring self-determination whilst becoming

:57:10.:57:12.

more global and international in action and spirit. We do have a long

:57:13.:57:16.

record of playing a leading role within Europe and globally to

:57:17.:57:21.

support and drive cooperation to help protect sit zences and depend

:57:22.:57:25.

democratic values and we have been lead programme Popents of

:57:26.:57:28.

development of a number of law enforcement criminal justice

:57:29.:57:30.

measures that are now in place across the European Union. Yesterday

:57:31.:57:34.

the Prime Minister also reiterated that while June's referendum was a

:57:35.:57:37.

vote to leave the EU, it was not a vote to leave Europe. We want to

:57:38.:57:42.

continue to be reliable partners, willing Allies and close friends

:57:43.:57:46.

within the European countries. On a practical level there, has been no

:57:47.:57:50.

immediate change to how we work with the EU following the referendum. As

:57:51.:57:54.

a recent decision, just before Christmas, to seek to opt into the

:57:55.:57:58.

new legislative framework for Europol, the EU policing agency,

:57:59.:58:01.

demonstrates. The UK will remain a member of the EU, with all rights

:58:02.:58:05.

and obligations that membership entails, until we leave. The way we

:58:06.:58:09.

work with the EU, of course, will have to change once we leave. And we

:58:10.:58:14.

must now plan for what our new relationship will look like. The

:58:15.:58:17.

views members express here today will be helpful in that regard and

:58:18.:58:21.

no doubt so will the right honourable gentleman's. I'm grateful

:58:22.:58:26.

to the minister for giving way. I want to follow up the incredibly

:58:27.:58:32.

important question posed by the right honourable member for, because

:58:33.:58:37.

we are the proud authors of human rights in Europe. It's a tradition

:58:38.:58:42.

that dates back to the McIn a car ta. Will he confirm, when the

:58:43.:58:45.

Government brings forward its proposals on a British biff rights,

:58:46.:58:52.

there'll be nothing in that draft for discussion, that will propose us

:58:53.:58:57.

leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, or the European Court

:58:58.:59:01.

on human rights? Well, I appreciate that the right honourable gentleman

:59:02.:59:05.

tempts me to give a running commentary and prejudge the outcome

:59:06.:59:08.

of the negotiations and work in a couple of years ahead, which I will

:59:09.:59:12.

resist but I will say to him, while we remain a member of the EU, we do

:59:13.:59:17.

recognise the jurisdiction obviously of the European Court of Justice,

:59:18.:59:20.

over the measures we've opted into. It is too early it spk late at this

:59:21.:59:25.

stage on exactly what our relation with the European Court of Justice

:59:26.:59:29.

will be after we leave the EU. -- speculate. That is work that will be

:59:30.:59:32.

done as we go forward. I have spoken to several counts parts in Europe,

:59:33.:59:36.

as has the Home Secretary and many colleagues across Government and I

:59:37.:59:40.

have to say in the coveringses I have had with colleagues across

:59:41.:59:42.

Europe, I have been encouraged by their view that it is essential to

:59:43.:59:46.

find a way for our shared work on security to continue. But we do have

:59:47.:59:50.

questions that we need to work through answering about how that

:59:51.:59:54.

should happen in practice. Will th will be complex and subject to

:59:55.:59:57.

negotiation. But we are committed to finding a way forward that works

:59:58.:00:01.

both for the UK and the European Union. And Home Office is working

:00:02.:00:05.

with departments, such as my honourable friend, who will be

:00:06.:00:08.

closing the debate today, across Whitehall to analyse a full range of

:00:09.:00:12.

options for future cooperation. We are also liaising with our

:00:13.:00:15.

colleagues, closely in a devolved administration. It is crucial to

:00:16.:00:19.

make sure that we have a way that goes forward, working for all of the

:00:20.:00:22.

EU. And we are drawning on the

:00:23.:00:26.

invaluable flooint experience of operational partners such as the

:00:27.:00:29.

national crime agency and Crown Prosecution Service. I'm grateful to

:00:30.:00:32.

the ongoing contributions from all those organisations. This work is

:00:33.:00:36.

being drawn together with the support of our colleague in the

:00:37.:00:39.

department for exiting the EU and will form part of our wider exit

:00:40.:00:43.

negotiation strategy. I'll make progress.

:00:44.:00:48.

A number of legal agreements. Or tools. They provide the framework

:00:49.:00:56.

for practical cooperation arrangements and information sharing

:00:57.:01:01.

mechanisms which were mentioned today. As well as supporting

:01:02.:01:08.

cross-border traditional and more enforcement, they include measures

:01:09.:01:12.

such as the European West warrant, prisoner transfer arrangements --

:01:13.:01:18.

European arrest warrant. They are designed to protect the rights of

:01:19.:01:23.

defendants and vulnerable across borders, facilitated major

:01:24.:01:27.

cooperation, support, practical processes for fighting cross-border

:01:28.:01:31.

crime and delivering justice. And yes, we have been leading proponents

:01:32.:01:35.

of a development of a number of security measures in the EU, backed

:01:36.:01:39.

by proportion safeguards. Leaving the EU does not mean we are walking

:01:40.:01:42.

away from this close cooperation with our nearest neighbours. I have

:01:43.:01:45.

to give waste of your I'm grateful to the Minister for giving way,

:01:46.:01:50.

because I'm now looking a durable's website, which starts with phrase"

:01:51.:01:58.

we do this by assisting European union member states in their fight

:01:59.:02:02.

against serious organised crime" so I would like to know from the

:02:03.:02:08.

minister, what are the negotiating terms for us to still access to pot

:02:09.:02:12.

if we are not a member state? If he has a look further into the Europol

:02:13.:02:17.

website, there are associate member state are ready, such as the United

:02:18.:02:22.

States. Treble is just one example, but I'll come to it specifically in

:02:23.:02:27.

a few moments -- Europol is. The toolkit has evolved over many years,

:02:28.:02:30.

in response to changes both in the nature of the EU and international

:02:31.:02:33.

security threats and the increased movement of people across borders.

:02:34.:02:37.

The Justice and home affairs. Decision in 2014 gave us the

:02:38.:02:44.

opportunity to re-evaluate certain measures to the UK pre-20 14. But

:02:45.:02:50.

provides a useful reference point, it is important to be clear that the

:02:51.:02:55.

situation following the outcome of a referendum is now different. We will

:02:56.:02:59.

no longer be a member of the EU, to state the obvious. Unlike the 2014

:03:00.:03:04.

decision, the question now is not whether we seek to rejoin certain

:03:05.:03:08.

measures as a member state. Instead, we have to consider how we should

:03:09.:03:13.

interact with the EU security law enforcement, criminal justice

:03:14.:03:16.

toolkit from outside the EU. We are considering a full range of possible

:03:17.:03:21.

options. We are looking at existing arrangements for third country

:03:22.:03:25.

cooperation with the EU, which can inform discussions. But it is

:03:26.:03:28.

important to be very clear as I said a few moments ago that we are not

:03:29.:03:32.

looking to replicate any other nation's model. We are at a unique

:03:33.:03:36.

starting point with a strong history of working closely with the member

:03:37.:03:40.

states as partners and as allies. As mentioned, we will make a key

:03:41.:03:44.

contribution to security and justice, both in Europe and

:03:45.:03:48.

globally. We will seek an agreement with the EU that recognises that

:03:49.:03:53.

unique position that we hold. I thank the Minister for giving way.

:03:54.:04:02.

Further to an earlier question, further to the Prime Minister's

:04:03.:04:05.

speech yesterday. She said we will not be hanging on to fits of the EU.

:04:06.:04:14.

Europol is an EU agency -- on two bits. The European arrest warrant is

:04:15.:04:25.

in EU crime and safety measure. Isn't the only interpretational of

:04:26.:04:29.

the Prime Minister's speech about not hanging onto certain bits of the

:04:30.:04:34.

EU that are no longer participate in either of these? As an example, I

:04:35.:04:39.

will say that it is worth having a look at the website that his

:04:40.:04:43.

colleague is looking at. There are members and associate members of

:04:44.:04:47.

your poll that are not members of European Union -- of Europol.

:04:48.:04:52.

Europol existed as a non-EU institution before the EU as an

:04:53.:04:55.

institution was involved. These things are why important. We'll be

:04:56.:05:00.

looking to develop a unique and bespoke position for this country.

:05:01.:05:04.

In just a moment I will give way. I just want to make this point. I do

:05:05.:05:08.

appreciate from comments already made today, it's clear there will be

:05:09.:05:16.

members pen question -- who will question the benefit. I've had the

:05:17.:05:20.

chance to see regular, real-life example of what they do and how they

:05:21.:05:24.

matter -- why they matter, which I'll outline as soon as I have given

:05:25.:05:28.

way. Although there are several countries that have operational and

:05:29.:05:33.

strategic partnerships with the Europol, they don't have a say in

:05:34.:05:38.

the overall direction of Europol and also in many cases don't have access

:05:39.:05:42.

to all the databases, and it is access to the databases that is

:05:43.:05:46.

critical. Can he tell us, it hearing out trying to remain a member of

:05:47.:05:56.

Europol? -- is he ruling out. And will have access to all of

:05:57.:06:02.

pottable's databases. Are not ruling anything out. We would bespoke deal

:06:03.:06:07.

right of this country, no not prejudge the outcome of negotiations

:06:08.:06:09.

over the next couple of years. Europol is a European Union agency

:06:10.:06:15.

that is based in The Hague, the one that we are a huge contributor to.

:06:16.:06:19.

The chief executive at the moment, an excellent leader for that

:06:20.:06:24.

organisation is a British national. Whilst the honourable member doesn't

:06:25.:06:31.

want to prejudge negotiations, the decision to opt in, in which he laid

:06:32.:06:37.

out his case are doing so, show the UK is willing to be an active

:06:38.:06:44.

participant in Europol for many years to come. Has outlined at the

:06:45.:06:50.

time, he makes a good point in one sense but I want to be very clear.

:06:51.:06:55.

The opt in was in the context of us being a member of the European

:06:56.:07:00.

Union. The next couple of years, we are still a full member of the

:07:01.:07:03.

European Union. It's important that we make sure we take the opportunity

:07:04.:07:06.

to play a full and strong part here. And we do want to continue to play a

:07:07.:07:11.

very, very strong part as a partner for our colleagues across Europe and

:07:12.:07:15.

globally, particularly for law enforcement. The prime objective of

:07:16.:07:22.

treble is to facilitate information to prevent serious crime and

:07:23.:07:26.

terrorism -- of Europol. I have yet to meet a senior police officer

:07:27.:07:31.

across our country who does not value our permission of Europol. By

:07:32.:07:35.

providing a platform for members to share intelligence and information

:07:36.:07:37.

and for a strong analysis function, it offers an parallel opportunities

:07:38.:07:43.

to prevent serious crime and protect EU citizens, including those in the

:07:44.:07:52.

UK. This means that some 86,629, for example, suspected criminals were

:07:53.:07:56.

identified on Europol information system in 2015 alone, at 40% even on

:07:57.:08:02.

the year before. 1500 plus decisions for referrals of terrorist and

:08:03.:08:06.

extremist online content between July and December of 2016, with 1600

:08:07.:08:14.

plus removals. Large-scale organised crime and traffic cases, the UK

:08:15.:08:19.

starts one of the largest national desks in the organisation, where one

:08:20.:08:22.

of the biggest contributors of information to Europol's systems.

:08:23.:08:34.

Another mechanism we have at the moment is to Kante. It works troppo

:08:35.:08:43.

located network -- is Eurojus. Later this year, we will start operating

:08:44.:08:49.

the EU's system for exchange of DNA, fingerprints and vehicle

:08:50.:08:52.

registration data. Following this has's overwhelming vote in December

:08:53.:09:00.

2015 you join it. In 2015, we did conduct a pilot. Exchanging DNA

:09:01.:09:03.

profiles with other member states, which gave us an impressive number

:09:04.:09:07.

of hits. Many again suspect or lot of unidentified otherwise, and allow

:09:08.:09:11.

the police, who are then able to arrest people for a number of

:09:12.:09:16.

serious offences including burglary and attempted rape. Since a thousand

:09:17.:09:20.

15, we have taken part in a second generation Schengen information

:09:21.:09:25.

system, a system for circulating law-enforcement alerts around the EU

:09:26.:09:31.

at the same time. This ensures that intelligence is shared

:09:32.:09:32.

internationally to help prevent threats from across the world. We

:09:33.:09:39.

have arrested and extradited wanted criminals, who we have would not

:09:40.:09:42.

have otherwise even known about. I have the give way. The National

:09:43.:09:53.

crime agency has said the team is vitally important to UK, where he

:09:54.:09:59.

also join the Met police in that Eurojust is usually fallible and

:10:00.:10:01.

cooperation agreements must be guaranteed as soon as we leave the

:10:02.:10:07.

EU -- is hugely valuable. Unaware when I talked about the Association

:10:08.:10:14.

of curb lease -- of police, wear uniform in desire to keep all the

:10:15.:10:18.

talk is we can actively working. The work we have to do in the years

:10:19.:10:22.

ahead must reflect the fact we have made very clear that when people

:10:23.:10:27.

took forward their boat on the 23rd of June last year, they didn't wait

:10:28.:10:38.

to be any less safe -- their vote. The serving of prison sentences of

:10:39.:10:43.

existing convictions, we have managed to extradite some 7000

:10:44.:10:47.

people for the benefit of that. The European information system provides

:10:48.:10:51.

a secure electronic system, the exchange of information on criminal

:10:52.:10:54.

record and convictions between authorities are participating

:10:55.:10:57.

countries. Ensures that UK authorities are made aware when our

:10:58.:11:00.

own nationals convicted in any EU country. Means we can secure Camilla

:11:01.:11:08.

information on EU nationals, so when the UK courts -- criminal

:11:09.:11:12.

information, they can take into account previous cruel behaviour.

:11:13.:11:22.

Comicstrip -- previous criminal behaviour, I am grateful. The

:11:23.:11:26.

government's intention is to effectively negotiate a bespoke

:11:27.:11:30.

deal, to secure all of this into the future and to achieve that within

:11:31.:11:36.

two years. What happens if we don't get that spoke deal within the next

:11:37.:11:42.

two years? I say to my right honourable friend but obviously have

:11:43.:11:48.

been very clear about this, that the country has voted to leave the EU,

:11:49.:11:52.

and we are leaving the EU. This is in the context of working to get

:11:53.:11:55.

that spoke deal that she referred to. I have every confidence not just

:11:56.:11:59.

in the Home Secretary and the team at the Home Office, but also the

:12:00.:12:02.

Prime Minister and the team across the backs of department as well to

:12:03.:12:05.

negotiate to get that deal that is right for our country in the years

:12:06.:12:12.

ahead. I want to touch briefly on the fight against terrorism. We are

:12:13.:12:16.

and always have been clear in the national security remains the sole

:12:17.:12:20.

responsibility of EU member states. That was set out in EU law. Would my

:12:21.:12:25.

honourable friend agree that of course matters relating to the

:12:26.:12:28.

important questions Hughes raised regarding crime, terrorism, security

:12:29.:12:35.

-- he has raised, questions of fingerprinting, not by any means

:12:36.:12:38.

confined to that region called the European Union. Actually apply

:12:39.:12:42.

internationally, and therefore just as other countries such as the

:12:43.:12:45.

United States have their arrangements, so we have hours. He

:12:46.:12:52.

makes an important point in that the work we have done across Europe, we

:12:53.:12:55.

have been a leading country in getting this work, it is work we are

:12:56.:13:00.

continuing to do with countries around the world. To make sure able

:13:01.:13:04.

to do everything we can in every context to keep our country and

:13:05.:13:07.

citizens say. We do work bilaterally and through the counterterrorism

:13:08.:13:12.

group for example to combat terrorism in Europe. That includes

:13:13.:13:19.

working with European partners on information sharing, tackling

:13:20.:13:24.

foreign fighters, law-enforcement cooperation, tackling

:13:25.:13:30.

radicalisation. That sits outside the EU, and will continue to be a

:13:31.:13:34.

member of it. I EU cooperation is just part of a wider landscape.

:13:35.:13:41.

International counterterrorism work which includes cooperation through

:13:42.:13:46.

relationships such as Interpol, and bilateral work with individual

:13:47.:13:53.

countries and of course Nato. Might I just make one point in relation to

:13:54.:13:57.

the integration by my honourable friend the member. It was very clear

:13:58.:14:05.

that though there are other means of international cooperation and with

:14:06.:14:10.

other countries outside the EU, the current mechanisms are much more

:14:11.:14:13.

efficient than those, which very often have to be conducted on a

:14:14.:14:17.

bilateral basis, rather than as part of a joined up system. Beverages

:14:18.:14:22.

desirable -- therefore it is desirable that we do all it can to

:14:23.:14:27.

stay in them. That is a good point, and there are different agreements

:14:28.:14:30.

in different parts of the world with different partners. In important

:14:31.:14:33.

that we work to get the benefits we have seen from some of the work we

:14:34.:14:35.

have got in agreements across Europe. Actually more widely. There

:14:36.:14:41.

are key partners in Europe, and they assure us they very are close

:14:42.:14:44.

corporation in counterterrorism matters as well. We are clear and

:14:45.:14:49.

effective cooperation with EU member states in order to combat terrorism

:14:50.:14:56.

will continue to be a top UK priority. EU relationships will have

:14:57.:15:01.

to change, but our shared goal in ensuring the security of our

:15:02.:15:03.

citizens will not. It is important we can find a way forward that works

:15:04.:15:08.

for the UK and the EU jointly, for mutual benefit. We report on

:15:09.:15:12.

negotiations from the perspective of what's best for the safety of all

:15:13.:15:16.

our citizens. What is worse for those who seek to cause serious harm

:15:17.:15:20.

to all innocent people and democratic values. During

:15:21.:15:24.

negotiations, we will look to continue the excellent levels of

:15:25.:15:28.

cooperation that currently exist with our European partners. We are

:15:29.:15:31.

recognising that the nature of the future relationship can only be

:15:32.:15:35.

decided in negotiations with member states and EU institutions.

:15:36.:15:47.

We recognise the challenges in negotiating a new relationship. We

:15:48.:15:53.

are committed to finding new situations to allow us to continue

:15:54.:15:57.

working together for the security of Europe and all the citizens of the

:15:58.:15:58.

United Kingdom. The question is, this house has

:15:59.:16:11.

considered exiting the EU and security, law enforcement and

:16:12.:16:15.

criminal justice. Lynne Brown. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We

:16:16.:16:19.

welcome this afternoon's debate. In the run-up to the referendum in June

:16:20.:16:24.

last year and the months since, we have heard much about how our

:16:25.:16:28.

decision to leave the European Union will affect Britain's economy. We've

:16:29.:16:35.

it means for our businesses, trading relationships, the nation's finances

:16:36.:16:40.

and most importantly the personal finances of individuals and

:16:41.:16:43.

households throughout our country. All of that is of very deep concern

:16:44.:16:48.

to me and, I know, to many others in the house. Potentially of even

:16:49.:16:52.

greater significance is the threats to our national security that could

:16:53.:16:57.

from leaving the European Union and, in particular, the effect it will

:16:58.:17:02.

have on the ability of our police to protect our citizens. Today, as we

:17:03.:17:08.

turn our focus to these issues, the government needs to provide stronger

:17:09.:17:12.

assurances that our nation's security will not be compromised by

:17:13.:17:18.

our decision to leave the EU. Madam Deputy Speaker if I say gently to

:17:19.:17:24.

the honourable gentleman that his speech was strong in analysis, long,

:17:25.:17:29.

and strong on detail on what these institutions are... But we didn't

:17:30.:17:34.

really hear anything about how we were going to do the things he wants

:17:35.:17:40.

us to affect. I know some honourable members in this house lament the

:17:41.:17:45.

fact that in the 40 years plus since we decided to join the common market

:17:46.:17:52.

it became far more than simply a trading arrangement. Given the

:17:53.:17:56.

nature of the threat we face, it's unsurprising that European countries

:17:57.:18:00.

found it convenient to cooperate in other areas, including the field of

:18:01.:18:05.

justice and home affairs. Quite simply, it was in our national

:18:06.:18:09.

interest to do so. Because the security threat we face are not

:18:10.:18:14.

confined to our national borders, whether it is to fight international

:18:15.:18:19.

terrorist networks or track down fugitives from justice. Or obtain

:18:20.:18:23.

crucial information on the activities of suspects abroad or

:18:24.:18:28.

maintain border controls. It certainly makes more sense to act

:18:29.:18:33.

together. Madam Deputy Speaker, these issues are of paramount

:18:34.:18:39.

importance to the security of our citizens. Whatever our personal view

:18:40.:18:44.

on the EU referendum, we urgently need reassurance from the Minister

:18:45.:18:49.

that our national security and ability to combat crime within our

:18:50.:18:53.

borders will not be compromised by the decision to leave. I know many

:18:54.:18:58.

honourable members will have issues they want to race this afternoon.

:18:59.:19:06.

Thank you very much for letting me in, would be honourable lady agree

:19:07.:19:11.

that for us in Northern Ireland it is especially Kiwi keep our

:19:12.:19:15.

relationships with Ireland and how we are working together there, and

:19:16.:19:19.

improve the counterterrorism world we've got. Eight out of 110

:19:20.:19:24.

extraditions allowed the still great work to be done. We've got to build

:19:25.:19:29.

on it. The honourable gentleman is absolutely right, there are three

:19:30.:19:33.

main issues that we would like to seek answers on this afternoon.

:19:34.:19:38.

These are our ability to participate in the common arrest warrant, our

:19:39.:19:43.

future relationship with Europe and access to a Europe-wide crime

:19:44.:19:47.

prevention databases including the Schengen information system. I'm

:19:48.:19:49.

going to come to each of those interned. A general point to be

:19:50.:19:56.

made, as many in this house will remember, our optimal relationship

:19:57.:20:01.

with the EU in the field of security and justice was comprehensively

:20:02.:20:05.

debated in the previous parliament. Indeed we opted out of all

:20:06.:20:10.

provisions relating to police and criminal justice in order to have a

:20:11.:20:16.

fresh debate about which foolish proofs we wanted to be part by

:20:17.:20:21.

opting them again. -- which initiatives. This was negotiated

:20:22.:20:25.

with other European member states by the previous Labour government and

:20:26.:20:31.

continued by the subsequent coalition. It consisted of two years

:20:32.:20:35.

of debate in government and Brussels and culminated in Britain deciding

:20:36.:20:41.

to opt back in to 35 specific measures that we considered to be in

:20:42.:20:45.

our national interest. These measures included amongst others the

:20:46.:20:49.

European arrest warrant, Europol, access to Schengen information

:20:50.:20:54.

system. Three things I'm concerned with today. I know our current Prime

:20:55.:20:57.

Minister is concerned about them, too, because it was she as Home

:20:58.:21:02.

Secretary who put the case to the house on the 7th of April 2014, that

:21:03.:21:10.

we should put back into them. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's so nice to have

:21:11.:21:13.

confidence that we will have unanimity in the chamber this

:21:14.:21:19.

afternoon on this often contentious subject. But I know the opted

:21:20.:21:26.

inhabitant before the referendum. -- the opt in happened. The government

:21:27.:21:30.

needs to tell us post-referendum how we ensure we still have access to

:21:31.:21:35.

these measures we so recently decided we needed to keep our

:21:36.:21:39.

citizens safe. We don't have time today to rehearse the two years of

:21:40.:21:44.

debate that led to a decision to cooperate in each of these 35 areas

:21:45.:21:49.

we decided to opt back into. I'm going to focus on our main concerns.

:21:50.:21:56.

There is no doubt this is a crucial tool in the fight against crime in

:21:57.:22:02.

the UK. Introduced 2004, it provides a mechanism for crime suspects who

:22:03.:22:07.

have left the country, fugitives, to be surrendered to the UK

:22:08.:22:12.

automatically buy in European member state, meaning suspects who have

:22:13.:22:16.

fled can be returned in a matter of weeks or days. Crucially it means

:22:17.:22:20.

suspects can be returned to the UK even if the crime they are suspected

:22:21.:22:23.

of committing has a different legal basis. To the law that applies in

:22:24.:22:30.

the country they have fled to. This is because, underpinning the

:22:31.:22:35.

European arrest warrant, is the principal each European Union

:22:36.:22:38.

country agreed to respect the decisions of each other's criminal

:22:39.:22:39.

justice system, even if they differ. I think she's just made the point I

:22:40.:22:52.

wanted to raise, which is that the principal means we have to accept

:22:53.:22:55.

that justice systems across the rest of the EU are as good as ours. Does

:22:56.:23:00.

she have confidence that is the case? I have confidence that the

:23:01.:23:09.

European arrest warrant is far more powerful than any other extradition

:23:10.:23:13.

process anywhere else in the world. And we would be so stupid if we let

:23:14.:23:22.

it go. Since it was introduced in 2004, the UK has used it to bring

:23:23.:23:28.

2500 individuals from outside the UK to face justice. 2500. Let's not

:23:29.:23:36.

forget it was the mechanism that enabled Hussain Osman to be brought

:23:37.:23:40.

to justice after he fled to Italy after a failed suicide bombing in

:23:41.:23:47.

London in 2005. The problem that we face is that the European arrest

:23:48.:23:53.

warrant is available exclusively to EU members. There are considerable

:23:54.:23:57.

hurdles to overcome, were we to attempt to maintain the current

:23:58.:24:00.

arrangements, if we're not in the European Union. As a recent briefing

:24:01.:24:06.

from the Centre for European reform think tank states, if, having left

:24:07.:24:11.

the EU, the UK wanted to get a similar deal, I quote, it would need

:24:12.:24:15.

to convince some of its partners to change their constitutions. In some

:24:16.:24:21.

cases this would trigger a referendum, do we really think they

:24:22.:24:25.

would hold such a referendum because we have decided to leave the EU?

:24:26.:24:29.

Some other countries from outside the European Union have attempted to

:24:30.:24:35.

negotiate access to the current arrest warrant system. Norway and

:24:36.:24:39.

Iceland for example have concluded a surrender agreement with the EU that

:24:40.:24:44.

attempts to get the same benefits, though it has not yet come into

:24:45.:24:49.

force. This agreement is weaker in two ways. First, it requires the

:24:50.:24:55.

alleged offences are the same in both countries, so losing the

:24:56.:24:59.

flexibility that comes from member states agreeing to respect the

:25:00.:25:03.

decisions of each other's criminal justice systems. Second, it allows

:25:04.:25:09.

countries to refuse to surrender their own nationals, making it

:25:10.:25:14.

tricky, for example, if a national of another EU country commits an

:25:15.:25:20.

offence on UK soil. On top of that, if that weren't bad enough, it took

:25:21.:25:27.

15 years to negotiate. That is countries in Schengen and the

:25:28.:25:32.

European economic area. Whereas, as the Prime Minister made clear

:25:33.:25:39.

yesterday, there are no plans for us to be members of either. The

:25:40.:25:44.

alternative is to fall back on previous extradition treaties which

:25:45.:25:47.

are far more cumbersome and in some cases will require EU countries to

:25:48.:25:52.

change their own laws in respect of the UK. Madam Deputy Speaker it is

:25:53.:25:58.

hard to see how any of these options are preferable to the current

:25:59.:26:03.

arrangement. In particular I'm finding it hard to understand how

:26:04.:26:08.

this fits with the Prime Minister's pledge yesterday to "Work together

:26:09.:26:12.

more" in response to threats to our common security. Because while it's

:26:13.:26:15.

not difficult for an individual who has broken the law in Britain to hop

:26:16.:26:19.

on a cheap flight to another European country, I fear it will be

:26:20.:26:25.

very hard indeed without the European arrest warrant for us to

:26:26.:26:30.

get them back again. For this reason, Labour today calls on the

:26:31.:26:35.

government to ensure the current arrangements are maintained. I now

:26:36.:26:42.

turn to Europol. It was only a few weeks ago that this house approved

:26:43.:26:47.

regulations that confirmed our opt in to Europol. The reason we did

:26:48.:26:53.

this is because it is vital to our national security. Europol, the

:26:54.:26:57.

European police office, to give it its proper title, exists to combat

:26:58.:27:02.

serious international organised crime by means of cooperation

:27:03.:27:06.

between relevant authorities, member states, including those tasked with

:27:07.:27:10.

customs, immigration services, borders and financial police. As we

:27:11.:27:18.

know, Europol is not able to mandate national forces to undertake

:27:19.:27:23.

investigations. But it provides information and resources that

:27:24.:27:25.

enables these national investigations to take place. In the

:27:26.:27:32.

words of the British director of Europe, Rob Wainwright, whose

:27:33.:27:38.

previous career was in UK security institutions, our decision to opt

:27:39.:27:42.

into your report is, and I quote, good for Britain's security, great

:27:43.:27:48.

for police operation in Europe. And indeed the Minister for policing

:27:49.:27:51.

confirmed on the 16th of December during the debate on the statutory

:27:52.:27:55.

instrument that you report provides, again I quote, a vital tool in

:27:56.:28:02.

helping UK law enforcement agencies to coordinate investigations

:28:03.:28:05.

involving cross-border serious and organised crime. A vital tool. He

:28:06.:28:11.

also said around 40% of everything Europol does is linked to work that

:28:12.:28:14.

is either provided or requested by the United Kingdom. But when he was

:28:15.:28:19.

pushed on whether we can maintain our membership of Europol, the

:28:20.:28:23.

Secretary of State for exiting the European Union speaking in this

:28:24.:28:28.

house last year was only able to say the government will seek to, and I

:28:29.:28:34.

quote "Preserve the relationship with the European Union security

:28:35.:28:42.

matters as best we can". When the honourable member for Holborn and St

:28:43.:28:46.

Pancras asked the same question about Europol yesterday we got no

:28:47.:28:49.

more information about how it could be done. I'm grateful to the

:28:50.:28:56.

honourable lady for giving way. Is she aware of what Wainwright said

:28:57.:29:00.

last year, that negotiating security pact from outside the block of your

:29:01.:29:04.

report in the event of Britain leaving the EU would be a damage

:29:05.:29:08.

limitation exercise. Does she agree with me that what we need to hear

:29:09.:29:11.

from the government today is not a eulogy to how great you report is

:29:12.:29:14.

because we know that already, but an indication of how they will limit

:29:15.:29:17.

the damage caused by leaving the European Union and agencies such as

:29:18.:29:22.

Europol. The honourable lady is absolutely right because Madam

:29:23.:29:26.

Deputy Speaker I agree with her, it simply isn't good enough. While the

:29:27.:29:31.

rubble has arrangements for third-party access, they raise

:29:32.:29:35.

serious questions. The government itself, in a policy paper published

:29:36.:29:39.

last year stated, again, I quote, there are a number of important

:29:40.:29:42.

differences between what Europol provides to third countries with

:29:43.:29:49.

which it has agreements. And EU members. They highlight, in

:29:50.:29:53.

particular, the inability to directly submit data and conduct

:29:54.:29:57.

searches within the Europol databases. The need to conclude a

:29:58.:30:02.

separate bilateral arrangement to connect to Europol secure

:30:03.:30:06.

information exchange network application. And the ability to sit

:30:07.:30:13.

on Europol's management board, which sets the organisational strategy. It

:30:14.:30:19.

tells us Mr Wainwright is highly unlikely to be staying in his post.

:30:20.:30:25.

In summary, to borrow from the words of David Armond, deputy director of

:30:26.:30:30.

the National crime agency, any alternative arrangement to full

:30:31.:30:36.

membership would be, and I quote, sub optimal. Not as good as what

:30:37.:30:41.

we've currently got. And that, frankly, doesn't feel comfortable to

:30:42.:30:42.

me. Our third concerned is around access

:30:43.:30:51.

to pan-European databases that are important for the routine work of

:30:52.:30:57.

our police forces. Access to the European criminal records data is

:30:58.:31:02.

limited, exclusively to EU member states. The common European asylum

:31:03.:31:08.

system includes fingerprint database known as Euro duck, that prevents

:31:09.:31:12.

individuals reapplying for a silent once they have been rejected. We

:31:13.:31:18.

have -- for asylum. To the Schengen information system, despite not

:31:19.:31:22.

being a member of Schengen, which contains information on lost

:31:23.:31:26.

identity documents and importantly, wanted persons. And the Minister's

:31:27.:31:32.

own permanent secretary in his four to the most recent annual report to

:31:33.:31:38.

the Home Office has stated that strengthening data ties with our

:31:39.:31:43.

European allies was central to combating terrorism. I would be

:31:44.:31:49.

grateful if the minister when he sums up confirms whether we also

:31:50.:31:52.

have access to these databases outside the European Union. And if

:31:53.:31:56.

so, will they come at a financial cost? I am most grateful to my

:31:57.:32:01.

honourable friend, she is making an impressive and powerful speech on

:32:02.:32:04.

this issue. Some of us may just not need to speak, but I'm sure that

:32:05.:32:11.

will not stop her speaking! Can I just say to her on the issue, at the

:32:12.:32:16.

moment someone arrested in London within three minutes, if a German

:32:17.:32:25.

citizen, we'll be to know exactly what their previous convictions are.

:32:26.:32:28.

We will want an arrangement that is just as good if we are no longer to

:32:29.:32:33.

have the access that we have at the moment. The honourable gentleman, my

:32:34.:32:38.

honourable friend, is absolutely right. But we're not getting any

:32:39.:32:41.

guarantees from our government that this is what they're going to be

:32:42.:32:44.

able to provide. There is still a more general problem, or that there

:32:45.:32:51.

are even negotiating for it. There is even more general problem about

:32:52.:32:55.

access to the data we need to combat crime and keep us safe. Even if we

:32:56.:32:59.

have access to European databases outside the EU, we may not have too

:33:00.:33:05.

-- be able to use them. That is because the European data protection

:33:06.:33:09.

law is clear that no information can be handed to a third country, which

:33:10.:33:16.

we will be, that does not Hetty evils of privacy. And while our

:33:17.:33:21.

government has said -- adhered to EU laws of privacy. By the government

:33:22.:33:27.

said will adhere at least until the point of Brexit, we did not know

:33:28.:33:29.

that they intend to do so afterwards. We certainly knows what

:33:30.:33:34.

happens if our data laws do not adhere to European privacy laws. The

:33:35.:33:38.

European Court of Justice will simply invalidate any data sharing

:33:39.:33:45.

agreement, as it has done for the so-called agreement between the EU

:33:46.:33:51.

and the US. What guarantees will the government put in place to ensure

:33:52.:33:56.

that information our police and security agencies need from the

:33:57.:33:58.

European Union databases will not also be turned off when they leave?

:33:59.:34:06.

In conclusion, we have some very deep concerns that our ability to

:34:07.:34:11.

protect our citizens will be made harder when they leave the European

:34:12.:34:15.

Union. And we need reassurance from the government that it intends to

:34:16.:34:19.

reduce or eliminate this risk through its negotiations on Brexit.

:34:20.:34:24.

It's one thing to have our prosperity under threat from the

:34:25.:34:28.

complexities of maintaining access to the single market. And frankly,

:34:29.:34:33.

that's bad enough. But it's quite another to have our security and

:34:34.:34:38.

their very lives of our citizens under threat due to the complexities

:34:39.:34:41.

of maintaining cross-border cooperation between our police and

:34:42.:34:47.

security forces not been properly considered and worked out before

:34:48.:34:53.

leaving. I quote again from the Centre for European reform. "Justice

:34:54.:34:57.

And home affairs is not like trade, which creates winners and losers.

:34:58.:35:03.

The only losers from increased cooperation in law enforcement are

:35:04.:35:06.

criminals themselves". So my question to the Minister is simple:

:35:07.:35:12.

what guarantees will he give that Britain's security will not be

:35:13.:35:15.

compromised by us leaving the European Union? Order. I have now to

:35:16.:35:25.

announce the result on the deferred decision, the ayes were 299, the

:35:26.:35:32.

noes Wessex. In England, the ayes were 280, and of the noes were six

:35:33.:35:42.

-- the noes 's work six. If I may say so to the honourable lady, whose

:35:43.:35:48.

speech I listen to, I am for my own part completely content of these

:35:49.:35:52.

matters should be left should be left in the safe hands of the

:35:53.:35:55.

Minister of State, who knows exactly what needs to be done. I am most

:35:56.:36:02.

grateful for this opportunity to say a few brief words following my right

:36:03.:36:06.

honourable friend the Prime Minister's excellent, bold and

:36:07.:36:10.

comprehensive speech yesterday. And to set out a few thoughts on wider

:36:11.:36:13.

security and co-operation after Brexit. In the Brexit negotiations,

:36:14.:36:21.

it will be necessary for us to set up the basis of our future

:36:22.:36:25.

relationship as is described in Article 50. I believe that our

:36:26.:36:28.

national interests in sustaining to the very highest degree and indeed

:36:29.:36:33.

to carrying forward into the future, the highest possible degree of joint

:36:34.:36:39.

action on Justice, home affairs, security cooperation and of

:36:40.:36:42.

scientific research and innovation, and indeed on many other areas of

:36:43.:36:47.

common and important interest. I congratulate my right honourable

:36:48.:36:49.

friend the Prime Minister on the clear and concise way in which she

:36:50.:36:54.

set up the government's position. And whilst I was a staunch Remainer,

:36:55.:37:00.

I absolutely accept the vote of the referendum, and the need now for the

:37:01.:37:04.

government to get on with it. As Churchill once said, if there is a

:37:05.:37:10.

there in your bedroom, it is not a matter for speculation. At the same

:37:11.:37:16.

time as these are difficult and conduct negotiations on trade and

:37:17.:37:19.

all the myriad other issues take place, this is an important time for

:37:20.:37:25.

us to set out, as the Prime Minister did in her speech, a clear case for

:37:26.:37:32.

a very close partnership and a new relationship of cooperation between

:37:33.:37:35.

members of the European Union and the UK. Indeed, in my view, it

:37:36.:37:40.

should be as close as any sovereign country can be. In terms of military

:37:41.:37:45.

affairs, free trade and security cooperation. In my view, this type

:37:46.:37:51.

of work with our friends Germany and France and others, and in other

:37:52.:37:55.

countries, is of the first importance. And our initiatives

:37:56.:37:58.

which in my view would be widely welcomed in Europe, what running in

:37:59.:38:03.

parallel with the rather more complex and tricky negotiations of

:38:04.:38:07.

the Article 50 transaction. Here is something about which Britain can

:38:08.:38:11.

bring something very positive and very useful and of proved worth to

:38:12.:38:18.

the table. Thus in my judgment, we should aim to maintain our excellent

:38:19.:38:22.

cooperation on security as it is now, and indeed to enhance it

:38:23.:38:30.

further, including during the discussion of the new settlement. On

:38:31.:38:34.

many of the issues, we will continue to have an important interest in

:38:35.:38:40.

shaping EU policies after we leave. But clearly, the United Kingdom is

:38:41.:38:43.

an important influence on European security agenda, and it will remain

:38:44.:38:48.

considerable given our position as Nato's most capable and willing

:38:49.:38:54.

European power. The recent deployments of Typhoon aircraft to

:38:55.:38:58.

Remainiac Army personnel to eastern Poland, -- to Romania. And soon the

:38:59.:39:07.

deployment of a full battalion of 800 men to Estonia. All served to

:39:08.:39:11.

underline our profound commitment to the effort. Inevitably once the UK

:39:12.:39:19.

exits the EU, it will become harder for us to translate this into an

:39:20.:39:26.

important commitment into political influence. It is thus even more

:39:27.:39:30.

imperative that our partners and friends understand that it is our

:39:31.:39:34.

intention to continue the closest possible relationship in these areas

:39:35.:39:39.

to our mutual interest. As the Prime Minister rightly said yesterday in

:39:40.:39:41.

her speech, she wants Britain to be the best friend and neighbour of our

:39:42.:39:47.

European partners. And a country that reaches out beyond the borders

:39:48.:39:52.

of Europe, too. And my fervent hope that our European friends will

:39:53.:39:55.

understand that it is our strongest wish that we play from the outside

:39:56.:40:01.

what role we can in making sure that the UPN union succeeds. Yes, of

:40:02.:40:08.

course. -- the European Union. Would he agrees me that we need to put all

:40:09.:40:12.

the pressure we can on President come to make sure that Nato stays in

:40:13.:40:16.

place and we build on our security -- president Trump. There is a fear

:40:17.:40:20.

that he may not, in which case the pressures change. I very strongly

:40:21.:40:23.

agree with the honourable gentleman, and I think it is very important. I

:40:24.:40:28.

have high hopes that the Prime Minister when she goes to visit

:40:29.:40:31.

President Trump will of course be making this point very clearly I

:40:32.:40:38.

hope that he will say something in his inauguration speech which will

:40:39.:40:42.

clarify what he meant. I'm not offended by that. Discussing with my

:40:43.:40:47.

honourable friend the chairman of the Defence Select Committee. I

:40:48.:40:49.

don't think he meant it as an insult. It is true there is much

:40:50.:40:53.

about nature that is highly unsatisfactory. Not the least that

:40:54.:40:59.

many of them don't pay their fair whack -- about Nato. Nato is not

:41:00.:41:04.

equipped or is far advanced as Russia, for example, in the new

:41:05.:41:07.

asymmetric hybrid versions of warfare that we are going to have to

:41:08.:41:12.

contend with as is seen in the unbelievably bad behaviour in the

:41:13.:41:18.

Crimea. Before he gets back to his main oration, I would like to draw

:41:19.:41:24.

attention to the context in which President Trump was reported, where

:41:25.:41:31.

he says that Nato, he says, is extremely important to him. When

:41:32.:41:36.

he's talking about the word obsolete, he seems to be using it in

:41:37.:41:39.

a sense that he's saying that Nato needs not to be abolished, but to

:41:40.:41:44.

modernise to face new threats. I think actually, we shouldn't read

:41:45.:41:49.

too much into the individual nuances of particular words that he speaks,

:41:50.:41:53.

because nuance does not seem to his style. I think my right honourable

:41:54.:42:01.

friend is spot on with that, anyway I'm sure that these matters will

:42:02.:42:06.

play out. I look at the wonderful success of the security architecture

:42:07.:42:11.

designed by those wise men and women after the last war, the last Great

:42:12.:42:15.

War, one looks at how well it has served the world in peace, in good

:42:16.:42:20.

times and bad times. It would seem to me not to be a sensible time to

:42:21.:42:23.

do anything other than support. Therefore, with the threats to our

:42:24.:42:29.

common security becoming even more serious, and in many ways in my view

:42:30.:42:33.

more insidious, our response cannot surely be to cooperate with one

:42:34.:42:38.

another less, but to work together more. As the Prime Minister said in

:42:39.:42:43.

her speech yesterday, we are proud of the Royal Britain has prayed, and

:42:44.:42:46.

we will continue to play in promoting Europe's security -- the

:42:47.:42:53.

role Britain has played. Whether it is implement in sanctions against

:42:54.:42:57.

Russia following its action in the Crimea, working for peace and

:42:58.:43:00.

stability in the Balkans, extraordinary important piece of

:43:01.:43:06.

work right now, or securing Europe's external borders. We will continue

:43:07.:43:10.

to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence

:43:11.:43:14.

policy, even as the leave the EU itself. To conclude, I hope that the

:43:15.:43:21.

Minister will agree with me that it is very important that we

:43:22.:43:25.

demonstrate even during the heat of the negotiations the inevitable heat

:43:26.:43:30.

of the negotiations, are absolute determination to be good partners

:43:31.:43:35.

and good friends, allies and friends to Europe, and that we are as my

:43:36.:43:38.

right honourable friend so rightly said, leaving the European Union but

:43:39.:43:43.

most emphatically not leaving Europe. It's a pleasure and an

:43:44.:43:49.

honour to follow the right honourable member for Mid Sussex,

:43:50.:43:54.

I'm sure we find much about which we disagree, but his experience in

:43:55.:43:57.

these matters shines through. I would also like to compliment the

:43:58.:44:01.

honourable member for West Ham on her speech. I think it was a fine

:44:02.:44:06.

speech and there was much to agree about in it. This debate takes place

:44:07.:44:10.

against the background of the Prime Minister's speech yesterday, which

:44:11.:44:15.

was made not to this house but to an invited audience. Although we had an

:44:16.:44:19.

opportunity to question the minister, the Secretary of State for

:44:20.:44:23.

exiting the European Union yesterday, this House has yet to

:44:24.:44:28.

debate the plan for year event Defra for leaving European Union. While it

:44:29.:44:36.

is of utmost importance we debate the implications on justice, it is

:44:37.:44:39.

more important that we should soon be involved to debate the overall

:44:40.:44:43.

plan for Brexit that was finally laid before us yesterday. Scotland

:44:44.:44:47.

didn't vote for the direction of travel set out in the Prime

:44:48.:44:50.

Minister's speech yesterday. We don't believe it's in our national

:44:51.:44:54.

interest, but we also believe that decisions on this topic in relation

:44:55.:44:59.

to Europe, the European Union, are not being driven by the National --

:45:00.:45:04.

rational best interests of the whole UK, but rather by the obsessions of

:45:05.:45:09.

the hard right of the Tory party. We strongly believe that the best way

:45:10.:45:14.

to build a prosperous and equal, a safe and secure United Kingdom is to

:45:15.:45:19.

be a full member of the European Union. Which failing, to be a member

:45:20.:45:24.

of the single market and to cooperate widely on matters such as

:45:25.:45:27.

security, law enforcement and criminal justice. That's why the

:45:28.:45:31.

Scottish Government put a plan to the whole of the UK before

:45:32.:45:37.

Christmas, suggesting a compromise whereby we might the whole of UK

:45:38.:45:41.

stay in the single market and continue to cooperate on matters

:45:42.:45:45.

such as under discussion today. It seems clear from the Prime Minister

:45:46.:45:48.

said yesterday that she's not interested in that as an option, so

:45:49.:45:51.

we fall back on our fallback position, whereby we ask the British

:45:52.:45:55.

government to consider allowing Scotland to stay in the single

:45:56.:45:59.

market allowing Scotland to continue co-operation on these matters.

:46:00.:46:03.

But, Madam Deputy Speaker, to turn to the subject in hand, the UK

:46:04.:46:10.

Government should not try to lull people into a false sense of

:46:11.:46:15.

security in thinking that continued cooperation on the matter is we are

:46:16.:46:19.

debating today will be easy in the event of a hard Brexit. It's not

:46:20.:46:25.

just my opinion, it was the opinion of the House of Lords European Union

:46:26.:46:27.

committee which published a report on Brexit and future EU UK security

:46:28.:46:33.

and police co-operation. They noted the United Kingdom shares a mutual

:46:34.:46:41.

interest in maintaining police and security cooperation after Brexit.

:46:42.:46:47.

They warned against any suggestion that this understanding of mutual

:46:48.:46:52.

self interest might lead to a false sense of optimism as to how

:46:53.:46:55.

negotiations in this area might proceed. This raises questions

:46:56.:47:01.

already alluded to about the extent to which the United Kingdom could

:47:02.:47:05.

continue to benefit from the same level of cooperation outside the EU.

:47:06.:47:10.

It's already been pointed out in relation to you report that

:47:11.:47:13.

associate members do not have access to the same data sharing

:47:14.:47:18.

information. Data sharing is very central to this debate, Madam Deputy

:47:19.:47:25.

Speaker. There will be limits to how closely the United Kingdom and EU 27

:47:26.:47:30.

can work together. If we in the UK are no longer accountable to an

:47:31.:47:33.

subject to the oversight and adjudication of the same

:47:34.:47:38.

supranational institutions, including, perhaps most importantly,

:47:39.:47:42.

the Court of Justice of the European Union. We saw just before Christmas

:47:43.:47:49.

that the Court of Justice of the European Union took rather dim view

:47:50.:47:51.

of the provisions for data collection and retention in the

:47:52.:47:57.

investigatory Powers act. Many of us had warned that would occur at the

:47:58.:48:00.

time the bill was going through the house. If the United Kingdom does

:48:01.:48:04.

not comply with EU law on data sharing and privacy protection then

:48:05.:48:09.

our partners will not be able in terms of the laws by which they are

:48:10.:48:13.

bound to share information with us. This is not about protection of

:48:14.:48:20.

civil liberties, it's crucial to security and issues of law

:48:21.:48:25.

enforcement. Much is often made in this general debate about the

:48:26.:48:28.

European Union of the opportunities that lie for the United Kingdom

:48:29.:48:37.

beyond Europe. It is sometimes suggested we should focus more on

:48:38.:48:40.

our security arrangements with the five eyes countries, the United

:48:41.:48:45.

States of America. It is true some countries such as the USA have shown

:48:46.:48:50.

there is a precedent for bilateral agreements on the transfer of data.

:48:51.:48:56.

But these presidents don't offer the quick fix some suggest. These

:48:57.:49:00.

agreements have taken many years to negotiate and in some cases are not

:49:01.:49:06.

enforced. Why withdraw from the system we have so painstakingly

:49:07.:49:12.

contributed to four years to seek something else which is far from

:49:13.:49:16.

guaranteed? As a matter of security we can't afford to have an

:49:17.:49:21.

operational break in the access we currently have two these EU

:49:22.:49:24.

cross-border tools, because the part of the day-to-day work of the police

:49:25.:49:29.

force at present. We have to look at the figures on stats produced by the

:49:30.:49:33.

Home Office and Scottish Government to see how important Europol and the

:49:34.:49:38.

European West warrant are. It is sometimes also suggested our

:49:39.:49:42.

partnerships with other countries such as the five eyes partnership

:49:43.:49:46.

will somehow replace or supersede what we have in place with the

:49:47.:49:51.

European Union. It won't work either because the five eyes partnership,

:49:52.:49:56.

important as it is, doesn't cover all aspects of our security. For

:49:57.:50:01.

example it doesn't cover day-to-day policing, or all aspects of it. The

:50:02.:50:06.

National crime agency has said one of their issues of concern, an issue

:50:07.:50:12.

of concern for their five eyes partners, is that the lack of the

:50:13.:50:15.

United Kingdom at Europol will impact on the other five eyes

:50:16.:50:21.

countries' relationships because often they use the United Kingdom as

:50:22.:50:26.

a proxy for getting work done at Europol when the United Kingdom is

:50:27.:50:29.

working with the other five eyes countries. These are the realities

:50:30.:50:33.

of the situation and they are not just difficulties that we in the

:50:34.:50:39.

Scottish National party are highlighting, and the Labour Party,

:50:40.:50:42.

they are difficulties which have been highlighted by the National

:50:43.:50:47.

crime agency, by Rob Wainwright, and by a House of Lords committee that

:50:48.:50:53.

has looked into these matters in some detail. The need to meet EU

:50:54.:51:02.

data protection standards in order to exchange data for law enforcement

:51:03.:51:08.

purposes means that if we leave the UK, if the UK leaves the EU, the UK

:51:09.:51:13.

will still need to subject itself to data protection law, which it will

:51:14.:51:20.

have no role in shaping. I asked the people on the benches opposite, is

:51:21.:51:25.

that what they really want? I realise they have concerns about the

:51:26.:51:28.

way laws are made in the European Union and I realise it's pretty

:51:29.:51:32.

obvious they don't like the Court of Justice in the European Union very

:51:33.:51:36.

much. If we as a union of nations want to continue to operate security

:51:37.:51:39.

and law enforcement with our European Union partners, as I said

:51:40.:51:44.

earlier, data sharing is key. We'll have to subject ourselves to the

:51:45.:51:48.

data sharing rules made by the other 27 member states into which we are

:51:49.:51:54.

going to have no input. If we insist on going our separate way, as we've

:51:55.:51:58.

done with the IP act, going beyond what European law sanctions, the

:51:59.:52:03.

other 27 member states won't want to share information with us because,

:52:04.:52:07.

as I said earlier, it'll be in breach of their own laws on data

:52:08.:52:14.

sharing and data protection. Madam Deputy Speaker, these are very, very

:52:15.:52:20.

real concerns. As I said earlier, my intervention on the honourable lady

:52:21.:52:24.

who speaks for the Labour front bench, what we heard from the

:52:25.:52:27.

minister earlier was a very good speech about the advantages of

:52:28.:52:31.

Europol and other European Union institutions to the lighted kingdom.

:52:32.:52:38.

-- United Kingdom. What we didn't hear was how he proposes to preserve

:52:39.:52:45.

those advantages in the event of the hard Brexit which we heard about for

:52:46.:52:48.

the first time in some detail yesterday. What we need to hear

:52:49.:52:55.

before this afternoon is not United Kingdom government's wish list, but

:52:56.:53:01.

the mechanics of how the United Kingdom government intends to

:53:02.:53:05.

achieve a continuation of the level of security, protection and law

:53:06.:53:11.

enforcement information sharing we currently enjoy with the other 27 EU

:53:12.:53:17.

member states, if they are intent on the task which the Prime Minister

:53:18.:53:22.

set out yesterday. We've heard nothing so far except that they want

:53:23.:53:26.

a bespoke deal. We'll wait with bated breath to hear about more than

:53:27.:53:29.

that when the Minister sums up. Robert Weale. Always a pleasure to

:53:30.:53:35.

follow the honourable lady member for Edinburgh South West. She's a

:53:36.:53:40.

distinguished practical lawyer and I agree with her on some of the

:53:41.:53:43.

practical issues which arise and I'll come back to some of those in a

:53:44.:53:47.

moment. Can I first of all say how much I endorse the views of my right

:53:48.:53:50.

honourable friend the member for Mid Sussex in relation both to our

:53:51.:53:57.

mutual situation, having forced to remain in the European Union but

:53:58.:54:00.

lost, accepting the verdict of the people, commending the Prime

:54:01.:54:05.

Minister upon what I think is a realistic, practical and determined

:54:06.:54:08.

approach to taking that issue forward. And upon the importance of

:54:09.:54:12.

our Nato relationships. He's much more of an expert on those matters

:54:13.:54:16.

Bandai but I endorse what he says and perhaps I add this one word. Not

:54:17.:54:21.

only must we endorse and strengthen our Nato relationships, we must

:54:22.:54:24.

maintain the best possible relationships with our colleagues

:54:25.:54:28.

who happen to be both members of the European Union and Nato. Not least

:54:29.:54:33.

our nearest neighbour, France, which is the other great military power of

:54:34.:54:38.

Europe. Nicola Power, significant military power, member of the United

:54:39.:54:42.

Nations security council. -- nuclear power. He will gently remind other

:54:43.:54:51.

material colleagues we have a long history with France and are on the

:54:52.:54:57.

same side in the Second World War. -- ministerial colleagues. That

:54:58.:55:01.

said, I'll pass to the specific issue I'd like to return to, which

:55:02.:55:06.

is the question of law enforcement and criminal justice cooperation.

:55:07.:55:10.

That has concerned me not only through my years at the criminal

:55:11.:55:15.

bar, but the Justice select committee took evidence in the last

:55:16.:55:18.

week or so, we'll be publishing our report soon. I don't expect the

:55:19.:55:24.

Minister to reveal the mechanism by which we achieve our objectives,

:55:25.:55:29.

because we're at the beginning of a process and the Prime Minister was

:55:30.:55:33.

right to set out if you like, the plan, and I expect there will be a

:55:34.:55:36.

lot more detail we have to think about. What I want to do in this

:55:37.:55:39.

short contribution is to flag up some of the issues I hope the

:55:40.:55:42.

Minister and his colleagues will bear in mind when we look at the

:55:43.:55:46.

negotiations, and how we put that plan into reality. The Minister of

:55:47.:55:52.

State for the Home Office started by talking about the importance of the

:55:53.:55:55.

European arrest warrant. It is recognised by the Prime Minister.

:55:56.:56:01.

She is right. We must do all that is necessary to remain within the

:56:02.:56:05.

European arrest warrant. It involves some compromises with purity of any

:56:06.:56:10.

break. I will be prepared to make that, as I would in relation to

:56:11.:56:14.

other matters, to achieve the practical objective of keeping our

:56:15.:56:17.

country safe. They are absolutely critical. As I said to the Minister

:56:18.:56:23.

of State, much of these issues are not about our domestically

:56:24.:56:30.

determined criminal law being over weened, supervened, by some

:56:31.:56:34.

international system. These are matters of practical cooperation in

:56:35.:56:39.

tracking down the rest of subjects, suspects, the exchange of

:56:40.:56:42.

information and the enforcement of Court judgments to everybody's

:56:43.:56:46.

mutual advantage. In all member states of the EU have varying

:56:47.:56:50.

degrees of approach to the criminal justice system. Ours is particularly

:56:51.:56:54.

different because of our common law system of which we are immensely

:56:55.:56:58.

proud. It does not mean, and I hope people will never suspect it means

:56:59.:57:02.

the systems of other European member states should automatically be

:57:03.:57:06.

regarded as inferior to ours. Some of us occasionally in this country

:57:07.:57:12.

are too sniffy about the quality of the justice systems of other

:57:13.:57:16.

European member states. I have no hesitation whatever in commending

:57:17.:57:19.

the integrity of the justice systems of France, Germany, Italy, many

:57:20.:57:27.

others. As I would to those of Scotland, Ireland or Northern

:57:28.:57:27.

Ireland, for that matter. Cheesemaking is a very good points

:57:28.:57:36.

but would he not concur as a fellow member of the Council of Europe,

:57:37.:57:40.

some of the prison systems he and I have both probably visited simply do

:57:41.:57:44.

not come up to British standards. With Greece in particular. I thought

:57:45.:57:49.

that might be the issue that was going to be raised and that is why I

:57:50.:57:54.

was going to say, firstly, it doesn't alter the importance of the

:57:55.:57:57.

criminal justice cooperation. Secondly, where that has been

:57:58.:58:01.

relevant as a criticism of the arrest warrant in the past, for

:58:02.:58:09.

example, it is past history, because what's not often recognised enough,

:58:10.:58:13.

there are important amendments made to the European arrest warrant in

:58:14.:58:19.

2014. When we had evidence from both the criminal lawyers Society and the

:58:20.:58:24.

criminal bar Association, they concurred very strongly the

:58:25.:58:31.

amendments in 2014 had removed the risks that got the unfortunate Mr

:58:32.:58:35.

sinew in his position. I give way to my honourable friend. It's a great

:58:36.:58:41.

pleasure to serve under his chairmanship. I think the point the

:58:42.:58:44.

honourable member for Monmouth was making in his intervention on the

:58:45.:58:48.

Minister, which is a cause for concern for me, is sometimes

:58:49.:58:54.

countries in the EU issue their European arrest warrant for very

:58:55.:59:00.

minor offences. The example of the individual who had a warrant issued

:59:01.:59:07.

because he had stolen a bicycle. It's important individual countries

:59:08.:59:11.

focus on the reason they take up their arrest warrants. I've always

:59:12.:59:14.

regarded this as a serious thing when a European arrest warrant is

:59:15.:59:17.

issued, not for the minor offences some countries use. The important

:59:18.:59:23.

thing there, and I accept the issue is a significant one, those two

:59:24.:59:29.

amendments did two things. Firstly Beirut any risk of extradition

:59:30.:59:34.

before commencement of proceedings. Secondly, they introduced in the UK

:59:35.:59:38.

a proportionality filter. It would be a better if other members of the

:59:39.:59:43.

European arrest warrant had a proportionality filter. The evidence

:59:44.:59:46.

we had from Professor Wilson of the Northumbria University criminal

:59:47.:59:51.

Justice Centre, it seems even Poland, which has resisted

:59:52.:59:53.

proportionality filters in the past, is moving in that direction. We're

:59:54.:00:00.

in an improving situation. The fact we have those two important

:00:01.:00:03.

safeguard is significant and it's important the European arrest

:00:04.:00:07.

warrant system is a court driven system, subject to judicial

:00:08.:00:12.

supervision, rather than being an executive act of extradition. That's

:00:13.:00:16.

like it'll be undesirable for us to lose the advantage of the European

:00:17.:00:20.

arrest warrant and have to fall back to the 1957 extradition convention,

:00:21.:00:28.

a purely administrative act through diplomatic channels without the

:00:29.:00:31.

protection of court intervention or review and was also much more

:00:32.:00:32.

cumbersome. I'll give way. It has been a pleasure to serve

:00:33.:00:44.

under the fine gentleman. I wonder if he will comment on some of the

:00:45.:00:47.

comments made by my colleague, notwithstanding the clear desire of

:00:48.:00:50.

my colic to stay within the European arrest warrant, there will be issues

:00:51.:00:56.

with the data-sharing regimes in the European Union and the UK, and how

:00:57.:01:02.

he thinks that could be reconciled following the UK leaving the

:01:03.:01:04.

European Union. It is clear from the evidence we have that the government

:01:05.:01:09.

will have to take that on board. We will have to add header not just to

:01:10.:01:15.

European standards of data protection, -- red hair, for them to

:01:16.:01:20.

be able to share with us, maybe in relation to other third-party

:01:21.:01:23.

countries, that we and they have to be prepared to adhere to

:01:24.:01:30.

international standards. That will also involve some form of

:01:31.:01:35.

international adjudicative process, where there are disputes between

:01:36.:01:37.

member states. Not going to try and tie the member down as to how best

:01:38.:01:41.

we solve that, but there are serious issues that we have to have on the

:01:42.:01:46.

board from day one in our negotiations. Equally, when they

:01:47.:01:49.

talk about involvement with some of the other agents as we referred to,

:01:50.:01:56.

a number of very valuable tools, there is a financial cost to the

:01:57.:01:59.

development of those databases, and I certainly would say to the

:02:00.:02:03.

government, do not be afraid to continue to make financial

:02:04.:02:06.

contribution to the development and maintenance of those databases.

:02:07.:02:09.

That'll be a very small price to pay in terms of the advantage of

:02:10.:02:14.

protection to the British public. I think there is common ground on the

:02:15.:02:17.

objective of the European arrest warrant. I want to just two raids

:02:18.:02:21.

some practical issues will have to grasp if we are to succeed -- I just

:02:22.:02:31.

want to raise. Can I just refer also to the other matters of concern.

:02:32.:02:34.

Cooperation between the courts, that is involving the continued

:02:35.:02:42.

membership or association of Eurojust. There is a present for

:02:43.:02:46.

non-member states continue to cooperate with Eurojust. Norway has

:02:47.:02:50.

a cooperation agreement, and has liaison prosecutors based at

:02:51.:02:55.

Eurojust. We would if we leave the EU, as it stands have to move from

:02:56.:02:59.

being National college members, but it could have that Norwegian star

:03:00.:03:03.

status. Perhaps we should be bold though untried idea to remain --

:03:04.:03:14.

Norwegian style status. I hear what the gentlemen are saying about

:03:15.:03:18.

Norway, but is he aware that the Prime Minister in her former role as

:03:19.:03:21.

Home Secretary was very disparaging about the abilities of Norway and

:03:22.:03:25.

Switzerland outside the EU bloc, because they don't have access to

:03:26.:03:29.

all the tools and have to do things like come under the jurisdiction of

:03:30.:03:32.

the European Court of Justice while not having the same input into the

:03:33.:03:44.

lawmaking processes. Prior to the referendum,... I accept the verdict

:03:45.:03:51.

of the British people, and we must find a practical means of achieving

:03:52.:03:55.

the objective that we want, and will be better to get something far

:03:56.:04:01.

better than what Norway has, therefore we should start by wanting

:04:02.:04:04.

to be National associates. We have nothing to lose from pressing flak

:04:05.:04:13.

from the beginning. In April last, the Prime Minister's referred to the

:04:14.:04:20.

whole system, the prisoner transfer unit, joint investigation teams and

:04:21.:04:25.

others, she referred to all of those matters in these terms, these are

:04:26.:04:30.

practical measures that promote effective cooperation between

:04:31.:04:33.

different European law enforcement organisations, and if we're not part

:04:34.:04:37.

of them, Britain would be less so. As Francis Fitzgibbons, chair of the

:04:38.:04:44.

criminal bar Association, that'll be a good starting point to bring the

:04:45.:04:48.

whole area into greater prominence since and a great starting point for

:04:49.:04:53.

our objectives. Repeatedly, the witnesses that we had to just a

:04:54.:04:57.

select committee said that this is part of a mutually reinforcing

:04:58.:05:04.

system of justice cooperation. The information exchanges, the ability

:05:05.:05:08.

to enforce court judgment, the ability for example to seek a

:05:09.:05:12.

European information or to come to get evidence from abroad, these are

:05:13.:05:16.

all part of the same process. And that is why it is critical that we

:05:17.:05:24.

set the highest possible level of objective for seeking our continued

:05:25.:05:29.

engagement with these matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is an important

:05:30.:05:33.

debate because it is an immensely important topic. Those of us who now

:05:34.:05:37.

do want to move on constructively from what's been a bruising

:05:38.:05:41.

experience for this country on any view, want to do so on the basis of

:05:42.:05:46.

an ambition to protect the country, but also to recognise that both our

:05:47.:05:50.

judicial system and our police force is immensely highly regarding, not

:05:51.:05:54.

just in Europe, but internationally. We have something to bring to the

:05:55.:05:57.

table as well -- highly regarded. As I hope the Minister will take this

:05:58.:06:03.

point on board in a bold and highly ambitious negotiation. I wish him

:06:04.:06:09.

and his colleagues were with it. It's a pleasure to follow my select

:06:10.:06:13.

committee chaired colleague, the rumble member for Bromley and

:06:14.:06:17.

Chislehurst. That the honourable member. I agree with him on many

:06:18.:06:20.

points you made about the detail of the importance of continued European

:06:21.:06:25.

cooperation as well. Like him, I voted to trigger Article 50 by the

:06:26.:06:31.

end of March, whilst like him I wanted us to remain, I believe we

:06:32.:06:34.

should respect the referendum result. That means getting on with

:06:35.:06:41.

the detailed and hard work of how we get the best possible deal for

:06:42.:06:46.

Britain outside the EU. And I would join the member for Edinburgh South

:06:47.:06:51.

West in putting out the caution that we should have in assuming that some

:06:52.:06:56.

of this is going to be easy. To get the detail right particularly on the

:06:57.:06:59.

important law enforcement issues, where if we don't have the right

:07:00.:07:02.

kind of legal basis for the corporation that we want to see, we

:07:03.:07:06.

simply won't be able to use the information or intelligence that we

:07:07.:07:10.

have in order to lock people up who have committed crimes, in order to

:07:11.:07:14.

take the action that we need to keep people safe. I had this is an error

:07:15.:07:19.

where there is considerable consensus about the objectives that

:07:20.:07:22.

we should have, not just across this has in terms of our objectives in

:07:23.:07:27.

cooperating to keep Britain safe, but also across Europe -- this

:07:28.:07:31.

House, where that cooperation between Britain and other European

:07:32.:07:35.

countries has saved people's lives, has protected us from terror

:07:36.:07:39.

threats, from serious crime as well. And the Prime Minister is right when

:07:40.:07:43.

she said yesterday that with the threats to our common security

:07:44.:07:46.

becoming more serious, our response cannot be to cooperate with one

:07:47.:07:50.

another less, but to work together more. But so far, we have heard very

:07:51.:07:57.

little from the Home Secretary and with the greatest respect for the

:07:58.:08:01.

policing minister, I am disappointed that the Home Secretary has not come

:08:02.:08:07.

to the house today the debate. Given the seriousness of these issues and

:08:08.:08:10.

also the fact that the Prime Minister highlighted, the importance

:08:11.:08:13.

of Parliamentary solitary as part of this debate, I do think we do need

:08:14.:08:19.

to hear more from the Home Secretary, will be calling her to

:08:20.:08:30.

come to the select committee -- the parliamentary sovereignty. It is a

:08:31.:08:33.

disappointment that there is no Home Office minister here for a debate on

:08:34.:08:39.

something which will have huge repercussions for our security

:08:40.:08:41.

operations for very many decades to come. Obviously the work on security

:08:42.:08:51.

will sit as part of a wider government plan for getting the best

:08:52.:08:54.

Brexit deal and the best Brexit settlement. Yesterday the Prime

:08:55.:09:00.

Minister talked particularly about trade and pledged to get her free

:09:01.:09:04.

trade and a better overall deal for British people's jobs outside the

:09:05.:09:08.

single market and Customs union. The government will know there is

:09:09.:09:11.

considerable concern about whether ditching these long established

:09:12.:09:14.

trade and customs deal is really going to deliver us a better deal

:09:15.:09:19.

for jobs, employment protection and environmental standards here in

:09:20.:09:23.

Britain. Her ministers will need to provide, considering -- Anita

:09:24.:09:30.

provide considerably more evidence -- is a social and economic

:09:31.:09:36.

standards that matter so not much -- so much as well. And the government

:09:37.:09:40.

needs to say more about its approach to immigration. Among those who has

:09:41.:09:42.

for some time believe that we needed to change free movement, and I think

:09:43.:09:47.

there are particular concerns about unrestricted low skilled migration,

:09:48.:09:50.

and we will need a sensible debate about how to get the best deal for

:09:51.:09:54.

Britain on both jobs and immigration so that will benefit from

:09:55.:09:57.

international talent and from economic trade as well. But there is

:09:58.:10:03.

some confusion and some questions a result of mixed messages from the

:10:04.:10:06.

government, it would be very helpful if the Minister could clarify as he

:10:07.:10:10.

speaks from the Brexit department. With some suggesting that

:10:11.:10:15.

immigration will not be part of the discussions and the negotiations

:10:16.:10:18.

about trade, that these issues would be kept separate in the

:10:19.:10:23.

negotiations. Others saying no, debate about future immigration

:10:24.:10:27.

rules will be dealt with alongside the trade negotiations. It would be

:10:28.:10:33.

fair important to understand whether the negotiations about customs union

:10:34.:10:40.

and the single market are stand-alone trade negotiations, or

:10:41.:10:42.

whether it will be a wider debate looking at options around

:10:43.:10:48.

immigration and trade as well. Can I congratulate her on all the eggs and

:10:49.:10:51.

watches doing as the chair of the home affairs select committee -- or

:10:52.:11:01.

the excellent work she's doing. Especially with regards to the

:11:02.:11:04.

rights of EU citizens, are going to have another debate? Or are we

:11:05.:11:07.

supposed to discuss all these matters in this debate to do with

:11:08.:11:12.

home affairs and Justice? Does she know? I think my honourable friend

:11:13.:11:19.

and commend him for his many years of fantastic work on the home

:11:20.:11:23.

affairs and select committee. No, I don't know what the plans are for

:11:24.:11:27.

further debate about immigration. Maybe the Minister macro can

:11:28.:11:31.

enlighten us, because clearly it will be one of the central issues to

:11:32.:11:37.

be discussed. If it is included in the debate, that will affect the

:11:38.:11:41.

kind of deal, the kind of agreement that we get, so it is important for

:11:42.:11:46.

us to have some clarity. About what those plans are. Turning to these

:11:47.:11:55.

crucial security issues. Shall be well aware that there are a number

:11:56.:11:58.

of different options for immigration, from those in EU member

:11:59.:12:02.

states and I'm sure she won't miss the opportunity to advertise the

:12:03.:12:05.

Home Affairs Select Committee's big conversation going around the

:12:06.:12:09.

country to discuss this issue, and indeed encourage honourable members

:12:10.:12:12.

to contribute and their constituents to do so as well. He's exactly

:12:13.:12:20.

right, and I'm glad that as a fellow member of the Home Affairs Select

:12:21.:12:23.

Committee he has reminded me to say that this is something that is, I

:12:24.:12:28.

think, going to need to involve people from right across the country

:12:29.:12:32.

having their say. About what the right immigration options should be

:12:33.:12:36.

for Britain, about we know that immigration is important for our

:12:37.:12:39.

future but also needs to be controlled and managed in a way that

:12:40.:12:42.

is fair. But people have different views about how that should happen.

:12:43.:12:45.

My view is that there is actually rather more consensus than people

:12:46.:12:49.

sometimes think, in the polarised debate that sometimes take place on

:12:50.:12:52.

immigration. We do believe that all members of the House should have

:12:53.:12:57.

their say as part of that, and we'll be holding regional hearings and

:12:58.:13:00.

regional evidence since around the country and urging honourable

:13:01.:13:05.

members to consult their members are not there want to see -- evidence

:13:06.:13:10.

sessions. As part of the future arrangements. Let me turn to the

:13:11.:13:18.

security issues. The Minister, policing Minister set out a very

:13:19.:13:22.

broad brush approach, and my honourable friend the shadow

:13:23.:13:27.

policing Minister set out a very forensic response, and a very

:13:28.:13:31.

thorough and detailed set of questions that weren't really

:13:32.:13:34.

addressed in the policing Minister's initial outlines. He talked about

:13:35.:13:39.

the value of our relationships and of the importance of joint working.

:13:40.:13:45.

But in these three crucial areas, Europol, the European arrest warrant

:13:46.:13:48.

and on the databases, we do need much more reassurance from the

:13:49.:13:54.

government that they're taking this immensely seriously, because it will

:13:55.:13:56.

have huge implications for our security if we don't get this right.

:13:57.:14:01.

On the Europol membership, there is no precedent for a non-EU member to

:14:02.:14:07.

be in Europol. But I'd be grateful for confirmation from the Minister

:14:08.:14:10.

that there is also nothing in the treaties that would rule this out.

:14:11.:14:16.

So if we are looking for our bespoke arrangement, perhaps he could

:14:17.:14:20.

confirm there is nothing to prevent as asking to continue our existing

:14:21.:14:24.

Europol membership, given the crucial role that Britain has played

:14:25.:14:30.

in shaping Europol in the first place, and in raising the standards

:14:31.:14:34.

of policing and cross-border policing in other countries across

:14:35.:14:38.

Europe to meet the standards that we have here in the cave. He will know,

:14:39.:14:46.

to -- in the UK, the UK uses Europol more than almost any other country

:14:47.:14:50.

in the EU, we provide more intelligence and play a leading role

:14:51.:14:54.

as well. I'd have been involved in things like operation golf,

:14:55.:15:00.

involving the Met and Europol, which rescued 28 children which are being

:15:01.:15:09.

exploited by a remaining -- a Romanian criminal gang network. Also

:15:10.:15:13.

an online child abuse network, leading to 200 rest in the UK. That

:15:14.:15:21.

kind of work between Europol is immensely important. Urging

:15:22.:15:26.

government to pursue full membership of Europol, and if not, something

:15:27.:15:29.

that frankly looks like it, sounds like it and smells like it so that

:15:30.:15:34.

it delivers exactly the kind of security arrangements that we have

:15:35.:15:35.

at the moment. Secondly on the European arrest

:15:36.:15:40.

warrant again, we need something that looks like it, feels like it,

:15:41.:15:44.

sounds like it, smelt like it, that pretty much is the European arrest

:15:45.:15:49.

warrant. And the idea of reinventing something from scratch, having to

:15:50.:15:52.

renegotiate, as other countries like Norway and Iceland have done, has

:15:53.:15:56.

taken them many years to do so and the length of time involved in

:15:57.:16:01.

renegotiating those sort of extradition agreements, whether it's

:16:02.:16:05.

with the rest of the EU or individual countries, can cause huge

:16:06.:16:09.

long delays and considerable legal uncertainty as well. The government,

:16:10.:16:14.

I know, is well aware of the importance of the European arrest

:16:15.:16:21.

warrant. It was part of our discussion when we discussed that

:16:22.:16:25.

over the last few years. I hope we'll continue to make sure that we

:16:26.:16:30.

can respond to the up to 1000 European arrest warrant is each year

:16:31.:16:36.

which involve us being able to deport two other countries. There

:16:37.:16:40.

are suspected criminals who would otherwise be able to find greater

:16:41.:16:45.

sanctuary here. The most challenging one of all, the one the police who

:16:46.:16:50.

gave test Amir and evidence to the select committee raised, was in fact

:16:51.:16:55.

the access to information and databases. And that shared

:16:56.:16:58.

information across Europe. Here is what the deputy director of the

:16:59.:17:03.

National crime agency said... He said, if we are curtailed in our

:17:04.:17:07.

ability to access intelligent Systems, our overseas partners have

:17:08.:17:11.

put in place, we may risk people hurting children or committing harm

:17:12.:17:14.

because we cannot put that picture together. My response to you is:

:17:15.:17:20.

yes, it increases the risk. The member for West Ham gave on account

:17:21.:17:27.

of the debate are bases and the challenges they present. The second

:17:28.:17:37.

generation Schengen information system, the Europol information

:17:38.:17:41.

system. On the Europe or information system, some of Europe or's

:17:42.:17:47.

cooperation partners can store and query the data in the centre but

:17:48.:17:51.

they can't have direct access, it's the direct access that is what is so

:17:52.:17:57.

important. From the passenger name record directive, so many of these

:17:58.:18:03.

directives. If we are outside the EU and trying to arrange a bespoke new

:18:04.:18:09.

arrangement for the European Commission, be forced to make

:18:10.:18:16.

adequacy assessments. Once we check article 50 and we're setting out new

:18:17.:18:21.

arrangements from outside EU, we will expect to have to have an

:18:22.:18:26.

adequacy assessments by the European Commission under their legal

:18:27.:18:30.

arrangements. However, as the member for Edinburgh South West pointed

:18:31.:18:33.

out, there are some challenges with getting that data adequacy

:18:34.:18:38.

assessment in place. And whilst this ought to be the kind of thing that,

:18:39.:18:44.

given our shared objectives in security and intelligence

:18:45.:18:47.

cooperation, all of it ought to be solvable. It's another reason why

:18:48.:18:51.

this takes time in order to get it right and why we can't simply assume

:18:52.:18:55.

because we have the same shared objectives, therefore it'll all be

:18:56.:18:59.

solved and all come out in the wash. And so I think if our objectives are

:19:00.:19:07.

to stay in Europe, in the European arrest warrant, and to keep access

:19:08.:19:13.

to those crucial databases, actually it would be helpful if the

:19:14.:19:16.

government could say that and could say those are our objectives, rather

:19:17.:19:20.

than simply the broadbrush statements which are simply that we

:19:21.:19:24.

want to continue with cooperation around security. It would give

:19:25.:19:29.

greater certainty for the police and law enforcement officers about what

:19:30.:19:31.

they should be focusing on and what they should be planning for as well.

:19:32.:19:36.

The Minister will know the importance of, if we're not able to

:19:37.:19:40.

do this, having transitional arrangements in place because if we

:19:41.:19:43.

don't people's lives will be at risk. We leave with one final

:19:44.:19:47.

thought about the way in which the negotiations take place. I'm

:19:48.:19:51.

worried, I've raised my concern about Home Office ministers and the

:19:52.:19:55.

Home Secretary not being here, I'm concerned because there is shared

:19:56.:19:58.

agreement on the objectives both in the and across Europe that somehow

:19:59.:20:03.

this will be treated as a lower priority in the negotiations. It's

:20:04.:20:06.

not as controversial as some of the other issues that we will all row

:20:07.:20:10.

about. It's not going to be, therefore, one of the main thing is

:20:11.:20:14.

the Prime Minister will keep her attention on continually. However it

:20:15.:20:18.

has to be taken immensely seriously otherwise it'll slip between peoples

:20:19.:20:21.

fingers and we'll end up with it not being ready in time, the details not

:20:22.:20:27.

ready in time, and not sorted out. My other concern is this should not

:20:28.:20:32.

be used as a bargaining chip in the wider negotiations. There will be

:20:33.:20:35.

all kinds of rows and debates and trade-offs that will take place

:20:36.:20:40.

across Europe around trade, around immigration rules, those sorts of

:20:41.:20:43.

things, but we should not have trade-offs around security. It would

:20:44.:20:48.

be better if these issues around security, corporation, could be

:20:49.:20:51.

treated as a separate part of the negotiations and could be dealt with

:20:52.:20:54.

as rapidly as possible to get some early security and show the

:20:55.:21:02.

government is putting sufficient attention into it. In the end, we

:21:03.:21:06.

will hold further evidence sessions as part of our select committee and

:21:07.:21:09.

I'm sure other select committees and other members of the house will be

:21:10.:21:13.

scrutinising this in detail. It is the final thought, which is that

:21:14.:21:17.

Britain voted to leave the EU, nobody voted to make Britain less

:21:18.:21:23.

safe. That is why safety and security, you know, will be

:21:24.:21:27.

something the government will take seriously. It needs to be

:21:28.:21:30.

sufficiently seriously to make sure we don't get an inadvertent gap in

:21:31.:21:35.

that security arrangement that ends up putting lives at risk. In the end

:21:36.:21:39.

when we are dealing with terror, security, cross-border crime, this

:21:40.:21:44.

is about the government's first duty, to keep its citizens safe.

:21:45.:21:50.

Madam Deputy Speaker it is a pleasure to follow the Right

:21:51.:21:51.

Honourable member for I agree with pretty much everything

:21:52.:22:01.

she said. During the referendum campaign one of the aspects that did

:22:02.:22:06.

not feature particularly dominantly was security. I can understand why

:22:07.:22:09.

that was the case, a lot of what we've been talking about today is

:22:10.:22:13.

very complex and doesn't fit easily into a short sound bite. But also

:22:14.:22:16.

because a lot of the security cooperation we have is done not to

:22:17.:22:22.

our membership of the EU, our security against military threats

:22:23.:22:25.

from other countries is protected by our membership of Nato and other

:22:26.:22:28.

alliances and bilateral relationships. Our security in terms

:22:29.:22:33.

of terror arrest is dealt with on a bilateral basis. Country to country

:22:34.:22:40.

between intelligence agencies. And also through multilateral agreements

:22:41.:22:44.

such as the five eyes intelligence alliance comprising Australia,

:22:45.:22:47.

Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand and the USA. These relationships are

:22:48.:22:54.

entirely separate to our membership of the EU and are in no way

:22:55.:22:57.

compromised by this country's decision to leave and to that extent

:22:58.:23:01.

I never subscribed to the claims of some on my side of the referendum

:23:02.:23:05.

campaign, Remain, that we would suddenly become a very dangerous

:23:06.:23:09.

place in the event of a boat to leave or indeed a ridiculous

:23:10.:23:11.

hyperbole that Isis would be delighted by a lever vote. -- vote

:23:12.:23:19.

to leave. Mark Rowley the Assistant Commissioner for operations at the

:23:20.:23:24.

Met police reported there had been an increasing cooperation between

:23:25.:23:28.

European member state police and intelligence agencies since the vote

:23:29.:23:32.

to leave and this cooperation on an ad hoc basis was no doubt do to and

:23:33.:23:40.

necessitated by intelligence shortcomings before some of the

:23:41.:23:42.

recent terrorist atrocities in Europe. To focus on military and

:23:43.:23:47.

high-level intelligence cooperation and counterterrorism that takes

:23:48.:23:50.

place outside the EU architecture would be to ignore the many policing

:23:51.:23:57.

and criminal justice measures inside the EU structures that we're today.

:23:58.:24:02.

And that makes the police's practical work keeping us safe

:24:03.:24:07.

easier and more efficient. I've spoken to a number of police

:24:08.:24:10.

officers in my previous work as a barrister, used to act for and

:24:11.:24:15.

against the police regularly. I know many police officers, locally and

:24:16.:24:18.

outside my own area, some who voted to leave, some who voted to remain.

:24:19.:24:25.

All of them had in common a clear desire for our existing police and

:24:26.:24:28.

criminal Justice cooperation to stay the same or be replicated as closely

:24:29.:24:33.

as possible. Indeed just last night I was speaking to Gavin Thomas,

:24:34.:24:38.

Chief Superintendent and president of the police superintendents

:24:39.:24:41.

Association for England and Wales at an event which a number of

:24:42.:24:43.

honourable and right Honourable members were present. He was giving

:24:44.:24:49.

me the example of DNA where access to EU databases allowed checks to be

:24:50.:24:54.

performed within 15 minutes that previously took days or weeks. He is

:24:55.:25:01.

a full supporter, as are the needs of many other stuff associations in

:25:02.:25:06.

the police, and senior police officers, of maintaining our current

:25:07.:25:09.

relationships with the EU in terms of policing and criminal justice. My

:25:10.:25:13.

honourable friend makes a very powerful point. Is he aware there is

:25:14.:25:19.

some evidence in relation to SI, the Schengen information system where

:25:20.:25:24.

the National crime agency said loss of access to SI as two would

:25:25.:25:30.

seriously inhibit the UK ability to identify and arrest people who pose

:25:31.:25:34.

a public threat and a security threat. I entirely agree with the

:25:35.:25:38.

Right Honourable member and in fact I don't think there is a single

:25:39.:25:42.

senior police officer or police organisation that takes a view

:25:43.:25:47.

counter to the one that he has just outlined. Outside the police, apart

:25:48.:25:52.

from some concerns, which I do not share, about the European arrest

:25:53.:25:56.

warrant, I do not detect any desire in the public for there to be any

:25:57.:26:00.

rowing back on our policing and criminal justice corporations with

:26:01.:26:07.

the EU. Even in this place I don't detect any such appetite either.

:26:08.:26:09.

Certainly since I've been in this place, the only pushed back,

:26:10.:26:16.

particularly from these benches, has been the requirement to submit to

:26:17.:26:21.

the oversight of the European Court of Justice. If that's taken out of

:26:22.:26:24.

the equation, and I'll come back to it shortly, I doubt there would be a

:26:25.:26:28.

voice of dissent in this place to the panoply of policing criminal

:26:29.:26:36.

justice cooperation to be enjoy. Time doesn't permit me to go through

:26:37.:26:41.

every one of them, I'll focus on four. Europol exists to assist law

:26:42.:26:45.

enforcement agencies in member states tackling cross-border crime,

:26:46.:26:50.

it focuses on gathering, organising and disseminating information rather

:26:51.:26:53.

than on conducting investigations itself. The UK has 12 liaison

:26:54.:26:57.

officers at Europol headquarters in the Hague and I was able to visit

:26:58.:27:01.

with colleagues from the home affairs committee last year,

:27:02.:27:04.

including the Right Honourable member for Leicester East. It was a

:27:05.:27:08.

very impressive operation indeed. It's important to note Europol has

:27:09.:27:12.

representatives from non-EU countries like Norway and the US and

:27:13.:27:16.

we had a long conversation with representatives from the US who have

:27:17.:27:19.

a very significant presence from the Department of Homeland Security.

:27:20.:27:24.

From the conversation we had from them it wasn't immediately clear

:27:25.:27:28.

they were significantly worse off from not being a member of the EU

:27:29.:27:31.

but it is certainly the case they don't have the automatic right to

:27:32.:27:38.

access to information on the Europol information system that members of

:27:39.:27:44.

the EU have. There is a specific provision, that have access on a

:27:45.:27:47.

case-by-case, supervised basis. We were also able to meet online

:27:48.:27:53.

counter radicalisation officers from the European cybercrime Centre. An

:27:54.:27:57.

initiative very much championed by our Prime Minister when she was Home

:27:58.:28:01.

Secretary. I mentioned the Europe or information system, the central

:28:02.:28:04.

database with information on suspected criminals and objects

:28:05.:28:07.

associated with crime such as Europe. If your vehicle is suspected

:28:08.:28:10.

of being connected with a crime in Kingston, British police officers

:28:11.:28:16.

can search the EIF to find out if there is other information on the

:28:17.:28:20.

vehicle or people associated with it anywhere else in the EU. In 2015, UK

:28:21.:28:28.

sent and received 27,000 alerts to Europol channels. Half of which

:28:29.:28:34.

related to high priority threats like child sex exploitation and

:28:35.:28:39.

firearms. As crime and criminals respect state borders less and less,

:28:40.:28:43.

the role of Europol in supporting cross-border cooperation will only

:28:44.:28:50.

increase, and be more and more vital, it must be retained and

:28:51.:28:55.

retained with British involvement. Like the EIS, it allows and

:28:56.:29:03.

facilitate searches of each other's database for fingerprints, DNA

:29:04.:29:06.

profiles and vehicle registration details, the UK has not implemented

:29:07.:29:13.

it. I believe it will later this year. It ran a pilot of the DNA

:29:14.:29:19.

profile exchange in 2015 and as already cut explain, they had from a

:29:20.:29:23.

senior police officer just yesterday, it's allowed checks to be

:29:24.:29:26.

performed in 15 minutes that would previously have taken hours or days.

:29:27.:29:37.

As the chamber's resident expert on PRUM, does he agree with me it's

:29:38.:29:41.

very important to continue to implement PRUM irrespective of our

:29:42.:29:45.

decision to come out of the European Union, because it provides important

:29:46.:29:52.

data sharing on DNA and fingerprints. We've made the

:29:53.:29:58.

decision, we should continue with that, pending negotiations. Pending

:29:59.:30:01.

negotiations we should continue down the path of integration in all these

:30:02.:30:07.

policing and criminal justice measures, that we've already done

:30:08.:30:12.

with respect to Europol. In a decision made and approved by this

:30:13.:30:18.

house just last month. Moving onto another important measure, much like

:30:19.:30:21.

the measure the Right Honourable member was just referring to, the

:30:22.:30:26.

passenger name record directive, something we both saw and had

:30:27.:30:32.

explained to us at Copenhagen airport. This is a common system for

:30:33.:30:38.

collecting and processing data held by airlines including names, travel

:30:39.:30:42.

dates, itineraries, seat numbers, baggage and means of payment. These

:30:43.:30:45.

date is vitally important in tracking criminal and terrorist

:30:46.:30:47.

movements to prevent and detect crime.

:30:48.:30:52.

It is important to note that the EU has bilateral data-sharing

:30:53.:30:59.

arrangements with the US, Australia and Canada and its negotiating

:31:00.:31:02.

arrangements with the EU. There is no good reason why a non-EU country

:31:03.:31:06.

cannot participate in what is clearly a system that has mutual

:31:07.:31:10.

benefit. Finally, the European arrest warrant. This has had a

:31:11.:31:15.

transformative effect on the police and prosecuting authorities'

:31:16.:31:18.

abilities to get those who need to face justice in the UK, be that

:31:19.:31:21.

prosecution or a prison sentence, back to the UK to do so. It bypasses

:31:22.:31:26.

the fiendishly complicated extradition rules that apply with

:31:27.:31:35.

respect to some other countries. Because countries who are members of

:31:36.:31:37.

the European arrest warrant cannot refuse to extradite their own

:31:38.:31:39.

citizens, and there are legally mandated time limits during which

:31:40.:31:45.

extraditions have to take place. In 2015-16, 2102 individuals were

:31:46.:31:49.

arrested in the UK and deported on European arrest warrant is, people

:31:50.:31:52.

we plainly do not want in this country. We have been able to repay

:31:53.:32:00.

trade over 2500 individuals from EU countries since we've been a member

:32:01.:32:06.

-- repatriate. Including some well known terrorists, serious criminals,

:32:07.:32:11.

paedophiles and there is a list of very high profile cases I don't need

:32:12.:32:15.

to go into. I agree with the right Honourable Lady for West Ham, that

:32:16.:32:21.

this is the most effective extradition system in the world, and

:32:22.:32:25.

it would be madness to be in a situation where we have to leave it.

:32:26.:32:31.

I'm very grateful, and I'm not an expert on this subject, but there is

:32:32.:32:37.

concern that UK citizens could under the EA W find themselves extradited

:32:38.:32:44.

to other EU countries where the just and -- justice system. To what we

:32:45.:32:48.

would regard as adequate. Does he have any concerns about that? Am

:32:49.:32:54.

sure we will hear his expertise in the defence field in a few moments.

:32:55.:33:01.

I think the starting point of the EAW system is that anyone within the

:33:02.:33:04.

system has legal system which will give a British citizen a fair

:33:05.:33:08.

hearing in the same way citizens of that country would have a fair

:33:09.:33:12.

hearing here. That is just starting assumption, and I think that's why

:33:13.:33:16.

this House approved our membership of the European arrest warrant

:33:17.:33:20.

system. I accept there are a number of people who hold the view the

:33:21.:33:23.

Right Honourable member does, or at least that he refers to, and I did

:33:24.:33:28.

refer to that in opening. On balance, the majority of people in

:33:29.:33:31.

this House and this country think that being a member of the European

:33:32.:33:38.

arrest warrant keeps us safer. Perhaps my right honourable friend

:33:39.:33:41.

would like to know that that was the view of both the criminal solicitors

:33:42.:33:45.

is Association who represent defendants and the criminal bar

:33:46.:33:49.

Association. On balance it was an advantage, because it has judicial

:33:50.:33:53.

overview, unlike the classic extradition, which is an executive

:33:54.:33:57.

process. Thank you for that very helpful intervention. There are many

:33:58.:34:01.

other measures that I could go through, to mention a few, but

:34:02.:34:05.

European criminal records information system, the Schengen

:34:06.:34:09.

information system, too. The system for providing enforcement alerts to

:34:10.:34:14.

those wanted, including those wanted European arrest warrant, which

:34:15.:34:18.

includes over 17 million live alerts. The European image archiving

:34:19.:34:24.

system, a database of genuine and counterfeit ID documents and col

:34:25.:34:29.

stumps. In all of these fields, I agree with the right honourable lady

:34:30.:34:37.

that we should be aiming for full membership or the closest possible

:34:38.:34:43.

approximation to full membership. So I turned to the UK's position on

:34:44.:34:46.

these matters. Since the general election, the government has put us

:34:47.:34:51.

in a good position to take forward policing and justice cooperation

:34:52.:34:56.

with the EU. First in December 2015, we decided to opt into prom two,

:34:57.:35:03.

second in December 2016, we decided to opt into new regulations

:35:04.:35:06.

governing Europol, and I was pleased to sit on the European committee

:35:07.:35:09.

that approved that decision unanimously. Third, yesterday the

:35:10.:35:11.

Prime Minister set out how a global Britain will continue to

:35:12.:35:27.

cooperate with its European partners in the fight against the common

:35:28.:35:30.

threats of crime and terrorism. She made clear that she wanted our

:35:31.:35:32.

future relationship with the EU to include practical arrangements on

:35:33.:35:34.

matters of law enforcement and the sharing of intelligence material

:35:35.:35:36.

with our EU allies. That came as no surprise, and she had personally led

:35:37.:35:39.

a number of initiatives in her many years in the Home Office. It is up

:35:40.:35:42.

to the European Union and to other member states whether they agree to

:35:43.:35:46.

allow the UK to remain part of the policing and criminal justice at the

:35:47.:35:48.

texture we are debating this afternoon. I think the case for the

:35:49.:35:55.

EU and EU member states to do so is clear, and probably more clear in

:35:56.:35:59.

this area of cooperation than in any other area of EU cooperation. Not

:36:00.:36:05.

just because this affects the security of every citizen of every

:36:06.:36:09.

EU member state, but because the UK is at the forefront of each and

:36:10.:36:12.

every one of these criminal justice measures. Take Europol. The Europol

:36:13.:36:18.

information system does, I understand, have 40% of its

:36:19.:36:21.

contributions on to the shared intelligence system from the United

:36:22.:36:27.

Kingdom. 40%, behind only one country, Germany. And the main

:36:28.:36:34.

contributor contribute in a number of important areas. It will be in

:36:35.:36:37.

the interest of any EU member state or the EU as a whole to shut itself

:36:38.:36:42.

off from access to that vital intelligence: the pursuit of some

:36:43.:36:49.

lofty principle or ideal. This is a matter of practicality. If the

:36:50.:36:52.

tables were turned and an IDE country that contributed 40% of

:36:53.:36:59.

intelligence to Europol, which helps British police officers fight crime

:37:00.:37:02.

were to leave the EU, I would be the first to call on our government to

:37:03.:37:05.

do everything possible to maintain access to that intelligence and

:37:06.:37:08.

preserve our cooperation with that third country -- and another EU

:37:09.:37:16.

country. It would be an act of self defeating nihilism from UK to -- for

:37:17.:37:21.

the EU to shut the UK out of the measures we have been discussing

:37:22.:37:25.

this afternoon. So how could we cooperate outside the EU? Plainly,

:37:26.:37:29.

we could either be allowed to remain a member of these measures, which

:37:30.:37:33.

would require EU legislation to be written. All we could be given

:37:34.:37:39.

informal, or bespoke access, which the US already have Europol. It

:37:40.:37:46.

seems to me that once any legal hurdles are overcome, the two main

:37:47.:37:51.

sticking points will be money and judicial oversight. As to money, I'm

:37:52.:37:55.

clear that we should pay to play. If we're going to benefit from things

:37:56.:38:00.

like Europol, which has an office and staff in the Hague, we should

:38:01.:38:05.

expect to pay for that, and there should be no question that we should

:38:06.:38:09.

contribute. With respect to judicial oversight, I do understand that for

:38:10.:38:13.

many members and honourable members, and indeed for many members of the

:38:14.:38:20.

public who voted to the oversight of these ECJ is a sticking point.

:38:21.:38:23.

Venice to be dealt with case-by-case looking at each of these murders to

:38:24.:38:31.

the measures. -- with each of these measures. There is often an

:38:32.:38:34.

international court would arbitrate in the way that we have the

:38:35.:38:40.

international criminal court. I don't think we will immediately

:38:41.:38:43.

become less safe because we've decided to leave the EU. These

:38:44.:38:48.

measures we are discussing this afternoon are hugely beneficial to

:38:49.:38:52.

law enforcement. The police and the public want us to continue with

:38:53.:38:55.

them, and I'm pleased that the Prime Minister agrees. The litmus test for

:38:56.:38:59.

me with this and all other EU cooperation is simple. If we were

:39:00.:39:03.

not currently a member of the EU, is this something we would be looking

:39:04.:39:07.

to get involved and because it benefits the British people? And

:39:08.:39:11.

with all the measures we are debating today, the answer is a

:39:12.:39:15.

resounding yes. Undoubtedly, there will be legal hurdles, but I hope

:39:16.:39:19.

it's clear that there is willing from our side and I hope the EU will

:39:20.:39:27.

respond in kind. And at the starting point for any negotiations and

:39:28.:39:30.

discussions will not be whether we should do it, but how we should do

:39:31.:39:33.

it. I know that members and Honourable members have come before

:39:34.:39:37.

the house today demanding guarantees and more information, but I think

:39:38.:39:41.

that given the consensus in this area that it falls on a running this

:39:42.:39:45.

House, particularly those with expertise in legal training, to

:39:46.:39:48.

contribute to the question of how we can do that so insists the

:39:49.:39:53.

government in ensuring we maintain -- it assists the government. For

:39:54.:39:57.

the benefit of all our constituents and citizens of Europe and Britain.

:39:58.:40:06.

This is a very important debate, and as it comes the day after the Prime

:40:07.:40:11.

Minister's very important speech, I want to begin briefly by reflecting

:40:12.:40:16.

on what we learned yesterday about the government's objectives in the

:40:17.:40:19.

forthcoming negotiations. It's now clear that ministers are going to

:40:20.:40:23.

seek transitional arrangements, and parliament will have a vote at the

:40:24.:40:25.

end of the process, both things which the select committee called

:40:26.:40:30.

for in our report. I shall observe it was published on Saturday, the

:40:31.:40:34.

Prime Minister adopted those proposals on Tuesday,

:40:35.:40:47.

which three days, somewhat faster than the normal government response

:40:48.:40:49.

to select committee recommendations. Having said that standard, I think

:40:50.:40:52.

the members of the select committee in the chamber tonight will hope

:40:53.:40:54.

that it will be continued. The most significant of the announcements was

:40:55.:40:57.

that we will be out of the single market and partly out of the customs

:40:58.:41:00.

union, and partly in. And in these decisions, and this is the link to

:41:01.:41:05.

today's debate, lies the future of our economic success and our

:41:06.:41:11.

economic security. And yet, it is an trade and our relationship with the

:41:12.:41:16.

customs union that the greatest uncertainty still exists, despite

:41:17.:41:20.

the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. What I say that? Because

:41:21.:41:24.

the government's made it clear that one way or another, it wants to

:41:25.:41:30.

secure continued tariff free and barrier free access for UK

:41:31.:41:33.

businesses to European markets. It could not have been clearer. An

:41:34.:41:36.

objective which incidentally the select committee and was one

:41:37.:41:40.

supported by the vast majority of businesses who gave evidence to us.

:41:41.:41:46.

However, there is no guarantee that this will be achieved. There is no

:41:47.:41:50.

guarantee that the EU will be prepared to give us what they may

:41:51.:41:54.

well regard as the best of both worlds. Free trade with Europe, the

:41:55.:42:02.

right to set our own common external tariff and negotiate a new trade

:42:03.:42:07.

deals. And so, I just observe that the government may be confronted

:42:08.:42:11.

down the line with a rather uncomfortable choice between

:42:12.:42:15.

remaining in the customs union or seeing tariffs and bureaucratic

:42:16.:42:19.

obstacles rising once again between British business and their largest

:42:20.:42:22.

market. Now, what would be the consequences of that? One of the

:42:23.:42:25.

ways in which we could answer that question would be to seek the

:42:26.:42:28.

government's workings. In his evidence to the select committee,

:42:29.:42:34.

the Secretary of State said that the Department was, "In the midst of

:42:35.:42:39.

carrying out 57 sets of analyses, each of which has implications for

:42:40.:42:44.

individual parts of 85% of the economy". In our report, we

:42:45.:42:47.

acknowledge precisely that, that the government is looking at the

:42:48.:42:50.

different options for market access. We then said in our report and I

:42:51.:42:55.

quote, "In the interests of transparency, these should be

:42:56.:43:01.

published alongside the government's plan as long as it doesn't

:43:02.:43:04.

compromise the government's negotiating hand". I would ask the

:43:05.:43:08.

Minister in reply, now that we have the plan, with God the plan, it was

:43:09.:43:14.

a speech yesterday, to House an assurance that these economic

:43:15.:43:17.

assessments will be published so that Parliament, the select

:43:18.:43:20.

committee, Parliament and the public can see for themselves the basis on

:43:21.:43:25.

which the government reached its view, both about leaving the single

:43:26.:43:28.

market and changing our future relationship with the customs union.

:43:29.:43:35.

Now, turning to the broader issues of security and foreign policy. We

:43:36.:43:41.

live in an age in which our very interdependence makes us more

:43:42.:43:45.

vulnerable to crime, to terrorism, to threats to peace and security.

:43:46.:43:50.

And yet, it is that very same interdependence which is the best

:43:51.:43:55.

means we have two deal with those threats. During the referendum

:43:56.:43:59.

campaign, I didn't come across a single person who said to me "I'm

:44:00.:44:04.

voting leave because I object to the United Kingdom and its European

:44:05.:44:07.

neighbours cooperating on policing or justice or security or foreign

:44:08.:44:13.

policy, or the fight against terrorism". Therefore, continued

:44:14.:44:16.

cooperation in all of these errors is not about trying to hold onto

:44:17.:44:22.

bits of membership as we leave -- these areas. It is about ensuring we

:44:23.:44:26.

continue to work together in our shared national interests at a time

:44:27.:44:33.

when there is, let us face it, great instability and great uncertainty.

:44:34.:44:38.

We only have to look around the world. The middle east, still

:44:39.:44:44.

reeling from the Arab Spring and the consequences of people seeking more

:44:45.:44:48.

security, more of a say, better government and the response of those

:44:49.:44:53.

who work, or still are, in control. Respond in many cases that was very

:44:54.:44:58.

violent and very brutal, think of Syria, Libya think of the flow of

:44:59.:45:03.

refugees as a result, including those who have come to the shores of

:45:04.:45:08.

Europe -- a response in many cases. The conflict which has dominated

:45:09.:45:13.

global politics for 50 years, Israel Palestine, remains unresolved. In

:45:14.:45:16.

passing, I welcome the government's support for UN Security Council

:45:17.:45:21.

resolution 2234, which rightly had some strong things to say about the

:45:22.:45:24.

threat from Israeli settlements to the prospects for a two state

:45:25.:45:28.

solution, because we all want a safe and secure Israel living alongside a

:45:29.:45:33.

Palestinian state. Given the number of countries including from Europe

:45:34.:45:36.

who sent ministers to the conference in Paris last Sunday to discuss a

:45:37.:45:40.

way forward, I would say I think the Foreign Secretary should been in

:45:41.:45:45.

seven appearing to undermine the conference by not attending.

:45:46.:45:51.

Across Europe we face an increased threat from Islamist terrorism as

:45:52.:46:03.

the people of Germany and Turkey have recently experienced and the

:46:04.:46:07.

families affected by the tragedy in Seuss in Tunisia whose anniversary

:46:08.:46:15.

is just taking place. We know that China is seeking to establish a

:46:16.:46:18.

presence on rocky outcrops in the South China Sea in response to

:46:19.:46:29.

disputes. We know that Russia resurgent after seizing Crimea,

:46:30.:46:37.

bombing citizens and hospitals in Aleppo and engaging in cyber

:46:38.:46:41.

attacks, which is a strange way of trying to go about getting respect.

:46:42.:46:46.

In the United States of America we were witness on Friday to the

:46:47.:46:53.

inauguration of a new president who to say the least appears to be quite

:46:54.:47:01.

sceptical about the international rules -based system. Institutions

:47:02.:47:10.

that we have established, the EU, Nato, the United Nations, created

:47:11.:47:13.

precisely to give the world greater security, and I have to say, Madame

:47:14.:47:18.

Deputy Speaker, I was astonished to hear Angela Merkel's decision to

:47:19.:47:23.

provide shelter to 1 million refugees described as, quote and

:47:24.:47:31.

catastrophic mistake taking all these illegals, end of quote, by the

:47:32.:47:38.

President-elect as though he was completely unaware of America, as a

:47:39.:47:44.

country, being built on providing a welcome to those seeking shelter,

:47:45.:47:50.

best expressed in these famous words. "Give Me your tired, your

:47:51.:47:59.

poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free", words forever

:48:00.:48:06.

associated with the statue of liberty. I certainly don't regard

:48:07.:48:14.

Nato as an institution outdated, of course there are things that can be

:48:15.:48:19.

reformed, nor do Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania who seen -- C Noto as well

:48:20.:48:31.

as being a member of the European Union as absolutely fundamental to

:48:32.:48:36.

their future security. We are leaving the institutions of the

:48:37.:48:39.

European Union, we are not leaving Europe. They are all in our shared

:48:40.:48:44.

interest. That is why it is absolutely essential that we find a

:48:45.:48:48.

way in the forthcoming negotiations to continue to work closely together

:48:49.:48:54.

on foreign policy, security, and defence with our neighbours,

:48:55.:48:58.

something which I know the government supports. There are some

:48:59.:49:02.

very practical questions. We will no longer be attending the foreign

:49:03.:49:06.

affairs Council. How exactly is that continued cooperation going to work?

:49:07.:49:11.

Will the government press for what I have called a common policy area, a

:49:12.:49:16.

new structure to bring together EU and non-EU member states to discuss

:49:17.:49:22.

shared concerns about foreign policy? On policing and security

:49:23.:49:26.

cover operation, we already have that special deal that allowed as to

:49:27.:49:31.

opt into certain special arrangements but we do need clarity.

:49:32.:49:37.

The point was made by my right honourable friend about what exactly

:49:38.:49:40.

is going to happen when we leave. A point also put very forcefully by

:49:41.:49:46.

the member for West Ham in her speech. The Secretary of State for

:49:47.:49:51.

exiting the European Union told the house on the 10th of October that

:49:52.:49:55.

one of the government's main aims during exit negotiations will be

:49:56.:50:00.

quote Micro to keep our justice and security arrangements at least as

:50:01.:50:09.

strong as they are". At least as strong as they are. Now, that is a

:50:10.:50:16.

very specific pledge to this house. The question is, how are we going to

:50:17.:50:22.

achieve this? Because replicating what we have at the moment, as we

:50:23.:50:27.

have heard in this debate, represents a very significant

:50:28.:50:30.

challenge. We've heard about the practical benefits of the Schengen

:50:31.:50:37.

information system. Knowing who is wanted, who is a suspected foreign

:50:38.:50:42.

fighter, who is missing, is really important. How will we continue to

:50:43.:50:45.

receive that information after we have left? We have learned about the

:50:46.:50:53.

decisions. Being able to quickly search fingerprints and DNA

:50:54.:50:59.

databases is very important in combating cross-border crime. We

:51:00.:51:03.

have heard about how being part of Europol gives us access to those

:51:04.:51:08.

databases and expertise and there are many other examples. And the

:51:09.:51:12.

challenge for the government is going to be to seek to replicate

:51:13.:51:15.

those Wan Siu-hung left. We have heard about the issue of data

:51:16.:51:20.

sharing. As I understand it, some of the instruments make no provision

:51:21.:51:22.

currently at all for sharing information with third countries. Or

:51:23.:51:32.

they expressively prohibit transfer of information to non-Schengen

:51:33.:51:41.

parties. They do not allow direct access to Europol's extensive

:51:42.:51:47.

information systems. As I understand it, it would be helpful if the

:51:48.:51:53.

Minister could tell others what conclusions the review reached about

:51:54.:51:57.

the options available to the government to secure continued

:51:58.:52:01.

participation which I think every single member who has spoken in the

:52:02.:52:06.

debate which is to achieve. Will he also tell us whether the

:52:07.:52:10.

government's negotiation objectives specifically include retaining

:52:11.:52:16.

access to this data and to this information, as part of the

:52:17.:52:22.

negotiations? Can he also confirmed to what extent the UK's data

:52:23.:52:28.

protection laws will need broadly to replicate EU laws if information

:52:29.:52:32.

sharing is to be able to continue to the same or similar extent, once we

:52:33.:52:36.

leave. A point made by the Honourable member for Edinburgh

:52:37.:52:41.

South West. How, and the point was made by the former Attorney General,

:52:42.:52:46.

the Right Honourable member for Beaconsfield, how will we negotiate

:52:47.:52:50.

these agreements without accepting some degree of oversight from some

:52:51.:52:54.

court, whether it is the European Court of Justice or some other. Can

:52:55.:53:01.

he confirm that in this area, as in others, the government will seek

:53:02.:53:04.

transitional arrangements to make sure there is no interruption to the

:53:05.:53:08.

flow of information? Madame Deputy Speaker, the process, in conclusion,

:53:09.:53:15.

on which our country is now about to embark will inevitably involve

:53:16.:53:20.

uncertainty until such time as matters are resolved by agreement.

:53:21.:53:25.

If the government is to honour its pledge to keep our justice and

:53:26.:53:29.

security arrangements at least as strong as they are, and that is a

:53:30.:53:35.

very high test, then the security and safety of our communities is one

:53:36.:53:39.

area in which we simply cannot afford their to be any certainty

:53:40.:53:48.

whatsoever. Or afford an outcome in which there is no deal at all. The

:53:49.:53:53.

Prime Minister said yesterday that no deal is better than a bad deal.

:53:54.:53:58.

In the case of security, no deal is and would be a bad deal. We simply

:53:59.:54:03.

cannot afford to allow that to happen. It's a pleasure to follow on

:54:04.:54:13.

from the right Honourable member for Leeds Central and I commend him for

:54:14.:54:17.

his work in the early start of the report of his committee which I read

:54:18.:54:22.

with interest on Saturday. It showed the committee hitting the ground

:54:23.:54:26.

running and hopefully made some impact in relation to yesterday's

:54:27.:54:32.

speech, as well. I must profess that I am not an expert in relation to

:54:33.:54:39.

security issues. On the NHS, I'm absolutely fine but this is a big

:54:40.:54:44.

issue that is of great importance to my constituency and is serving a

:54:45.:54:47.

constituency like bats there have been a number of instances where

:54:48.:54:53.

reports have been put out in the newspapers and caused concern for my

:54:54.:54:56.

constituents. I think it's important that I do speak in this debate

:54:57.:55:01.

today. I'd like to take this opportunity to focus on two

:55:02.:55:06.

particular areas. Of course, there are many areas which have been

:55:07.:55:11.

discussed in this debate already, whether that is Europol, CCR IAS,

:55:12.:55:15.

I'm going to pick up on a couple that relate to cross-border security

:55:16.:55:19.

and sharing of intelligence which have been covered by a number of

:55:20.:55:24.

Honourable friends across the house so far. As my honourable friend for

:55:25.:55:28.

Great Yarmouth earlier said, maintaining strong security

:55:29.:55:32.

cooperation that we currently have with the European Union will feature

:55:33.:55:37.

heavily in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations as outlined yesterday.

:55:38.:55:40.

They should be absolutely no doubt that many of the tools and

:55:41.:55:45.

institutions that currently underpin security and police cooperation are

:55:46.:55:49.

absolutely vital for the continued safety of our nation, ever more

:55:50.:55:55.

given the current security concerns. Yesterday, I welcomed the Prime

:55:56.:56:00.

Minister's commitment in her speech to continue to cooperate with our

:56:01.:56:04.

European partners in areas such as crime and terrorism. Particularly

:56:05.:56:07.

when she said with the threats becoming more serious, our response

:56:08.:56:11.

cannot be to cooperate with one another less but to work together

:56:12.:56:16.

more. You agree that there is a large opportunity here not just to

:56:17.:56:20.

look at maintaining that current cooperation but extending it as

:56:21.:56:23.

well. We shouldn't give up on those opportunities that this debate gives

:56:24.:56:35.

us. We will face the challenge of cross-border crime and deadly

:56:36.:56:37.

terrorist threats that do not respect borders. As the Prime

:56:38.:56:41.

Minister outlined yesterday, with the threats becoming more serious,

:56:42.:56:47.

our response really needs to be enhanced. On the matters of law

:56:48.:56:52.

enforcement and sharing intelligence materials, it has never been more

:56:53.:56:57.

important, as my right honourable friend said earlier on. I want to be

:56:58.:57:02.

free mention and before Honourable members turn around and say, why is

:57:03.:57:09.

he mentioning the European Convention on Human Rights and the

:57:10.:57:12.

protection it gives, the reason why I raise this is because of the fact

:57:13.:57:15.

that I still think personally that once we are having these debates, a

:57:16.:57:20.

lot of constituents out there and a lot of people in the country either

:57:21.:57:25.

confused the two issues and think one is interchangeable with the

:57:26.:57:29.

other or all sensitively are worried that because of the debates we are

:57:30.:57:33.

having in relation to the European Court of Justice and the exit from

:57:34.:57:36.

the European Union that this will at some point have some sort of impact.

:57:37.:57:41.

If Madame Deputy Speaker will indulge me on this, I think leaving

:57:42.:57:47.

the European Union will make it much easier to bring ourselves out of the

:57:48.:57:51.

European Convention on Human Rights. While this is a topic for another

:57:52.:57:55.

day, I still have no doubt that this is going to be debated for quite a

:57:56.:57:59.

serious amount of time in this place and the other place as well. I'm

:58:00.:58:03.

concerned that our potential withdrawal will limit the rights of

:58:04.:58:07.

those in the criminal justice system. I think those rights are

:58:08.:58:13.

absolutely crucial. Can the Minister assure me that the government will

:58:14.:58:16.

be putting the protection of human rights at the forefront of their

:58:17.:58:24.

agenda when dealing both inside and outside the European Union. There is

:58:25.:58:29.

consensus among law enforcement agencies about the tools and

:58:30.:58:31.

capabilities we must retain in order to keep people safe and one is the

:58:32.:58:36.

European Arrest Warrant which has been debated earlier on. Members

:58:37.:58:42.

will know that the EAW facilitates the exchange of individuals between

:58:43.:58:45.

EU member states to face prosecution for a crime of which they are

:58:46.:58:50.

accused and serve a prison sentence for a existing conviction. The UK

:58:51.:58:57.

has extradited over 7000 individuals convicted of criminal offences to

:58:58.:59:02.

other member states and 675 suspected, convicted or wanted

:59:03.:59:07.

individuals to Britain to face justice. That is no small number.

:59:08.:59:11.

Ultimately, we need to think about this number and how many different

:59:12.:59:17.

individuals in society are impacted by the number over the years. It has

:59:18.:59:22.

been used to get terror suspects out of the country and bring terrorists

:59:23.:59:27.

back here to face justice. One main example is in 2005 when Hussain

:59:28.:59:37.

Osman who try to blow up the underground on the 21st of the

:59:38.:59:41.

seventh was extradited within 56 days. Before the arrest warrant

:59:42.:59:49.

existed, it took ten long years to extradite another terrorist from

:59:50.:59:54.

Britain to France. If we do not ensure something is going to

:59:55.:59:57.

continue on, I don't want to see others harking back to take years to

:59:58.:00:05.

extradite citizens. On this issue of the European Arrest Warrant, that

:00:06.:00:12.

was debated extensively in previous parliaments, there are a number of

:00:13.:00:16.

instances where British citizens have been subjected to failures of

:00:17.:00:20.

Justice under that system. It is a point that he needs to take on

:00:21.:00:25.

board. I thank my rouble member for intervening.

:00:26.:00:34.

Riddles about enhancing the system we have -- it's also about. I think

:00:35.:00:46.

that debate should be had. This is a prime opportunity to do so. Mr

:00:47.:00:53.

Speaker, lastly, can I just turn to cross-border intelligence sharing,

:00:54.:00:56.

instrumental to the safety of our nation. In particular the mechanisms

:00:57.:00:59.

data gathering and analysis undertaken by Europol, the agency

:01:00.:01:06.

that supports law enforcement agencies for member states by

:01:07.:01:09.

providing a forum in which member states can cooperate and share

:01:10.:01:12.

information. Can I should have assurance that we will continue to

:01:13.:01:20.

have access to this after we leave the European Union, and I have no

:01:21.:01:23.

doubt every member will be saying that over the next few hours? Does

:01:24.:01:29.

he agree with me that UK intelligence agencies, including

:01:30.:01:32.

individuals working in my constituency and Cheltenham don't

:01:33.:01:35.

just protect British lives, they protect European lives as well. And

:01:36.:01:40.

that as part of any future arrangements, we want to ensure that

:01:41.:01:43.

they continue to do the vital work, both within our shores and beyond. I

:01:44.:01:48.

thank him for his intervention, and he's a great champion of the

:01:49.:01:52.

security services, particularly those in his constituency, and his

:01:53.:01:56.

constituents that work in places like GCHQ. Not just in the European

:01:57.:02:03.

Union, but also to the wider world with associate members, too.

:02:04.:02:05.

Actually, this is something that has to be at the very fora of what the

:02:06.:02:09.

government is doing. This isn't just about British domestic interest, but

:02:10.:02:13.

also international interest at the same time. I thank him for his

:02:14.:02:18.

contribution. There is no doubt that the UK's participation in criminal

:02:19.:02:24.

and policing capabilities have resulted in a safer United Kingdom.

:02:25.:02:29.

The UK has a list taken a leading European security matters, managing

:02:30.:02:33.

the relationship between the EU and the United States, taking the lead

:02:34.:02:37.

in producing EU policies on counter radicalisation and the EU action

:02:38.:02:41.

plan on terrorism was drafted during a UK presidency. Can I also press

:02:42.:02:46.

the on the importance of this continued cooperation on after we

:02:47.:02:50.

exit the European Union? I must tell right -- highlight that clarity is

:02:51.:02:57.

given as much as possible on this issue. The public put security and

:02:58.:03:04.

enforcement high on the agenda, so I'm pleased the government has

:03:05.:03:06.

allowed this debate to take place today. We should be giving them or

:03:07.:03:11.

conference at what ever the relationship that Britain has with

:03:12.:03:14.

the European Union in the future maintains the highest level of

:03:15.:03:15.

security. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is great

:03:16.:03:27.

pleasure to follow the honourable member. Otherwise my final

:03:28.:03:32.

contribution before I leave to take up the post as director is the

:03:33.:03:36.

Victoria and Albert Museum, the world's greatest museum of art and

:03:37.:03:41.

performance. It has been a profound privilege to represent

:03:42.:03:44.

Stoke-on-Trent in this chamber, and I'd like to put on record my thanks

:03:45.:03:50.

to the Speaker, clerks, door staff, and perhaps best of all the library

:03:51.:03:55.

staff, who now face a drop in demand. It seems particularly

:03:56.:04:00.

perverse to leave the House now, and let me apologise to the political

:04:01.:04:03.

parties and the people of Stoke-on-Trent foreign posting --

:04:04.:04:09.

for inflicting a by-election. It seems perverse to believing just

:04:10.:04:16.

now, not least in terms of security, law enforcement and justice. As

:04:17.:04:21.

power and sovereignty is returned to the UK Parliament, the question we

:04:22.:04:24.

are debating today and you will be into the future is whether we see a

:04:25.:04:29.

Britannia unchanged, forging a new era free trade, cultural exchange

:04:30.:04:36.

and innovation, or whether the world today as my honourable friend

:04:37.:04:41.

suggested is so interconnected in terms of economy, security and

:04:42.:04:45.

political power that we have in leaving the European Union expose

:04:46.:04:49.

ourselves to international headwinds that will batter rather than benefit

:04:50.:04:54.

us. At this stage, we have no answer to that. The Prime Minister's speech

:04:55.:04:58.

left no doubt about the strategic direction in which the government is

:04:59.:05:02.

heading. Let me say that I welcome the tone of it. The need to end

:05:03.:05:08.

division and heal some of the anger surrounding our decision to exit the

:05:09.:05:12.

European Union is of vital task of political leadership. For the

:05:13.:05:22.

saddest and most peak-time it -- most peak-time was hearing about the

:05:23.:05:29.

murder of Jo Cox, my friend. It remains a devastating loss for the

:05:30.:05:33.

Labour movement and humanitarian affairs. We should not forget that

:05:34.:05:37.

her killing took place amid some of the ugliest and most divisive

:05:38.:05:41.

rhetoric in the lead up to the referendum. And I pay tribute today

:05:42.:05:44.

to the enormous dignity and resilience of her widower, Brendan

:05:45.:05:51.

Cox and close family. Amidst the Brexit debate, I continue before I

:05:52.:05:55.

am perhaps seduced by Crown Office, to represent a constituency that

:05:56.:06:01.

voted 70-30 to leave the European Union was too weak in and week out,

:06:02.:06:06.

I campaigned with colleagues to remain in the year. I remember

:06:07.:06:10.

Sundays not meeting anyone who wished to stay inside the EU. But I,

:06:11.:06:15.

like many members in this house -- Sundays. I accept the result. This

:06:16.:06:21.

division of opinion between the official Labour Party position and

:06:22.:06:24.

many of our heartland voters has served only to highlight some of the

:06:25.:06:28.

deep-seated challenges which centre-left parties are facing. From

:06:29.:06:33.

Greece to the Netherlands, to Sweden, to France, the combination

:06:34.:06:37.

of austerity, globalisation and EU policy has hammered social

:06:38.:06:40.

democratic politics. The challenge which my friend Billy leader of the

:06:41.:06:46.

Labour Party faces is not unique to him -- my friend, their leader. But

:06:47.:06:51.

Brexit has done is exacerbated by virgins of priorities between what

:06:52.:07:00.

the Labour voters of Cambridge want, and those of Stoke-on-Trent for

:07:01.:07:03.

example. Keeping a metropolitan and post-industrial coalition together

:07:04.:07:07.

is no easy task. In Stoke-on-Trent, my voters wanted to leave the

:07:08.:07:11.

European Union for three reasons. For sovereignty and a return of

:07:12.:07:16.

national powers to this Parliament. A reaction against globalisation and

:07:17.:07:20.

the political economy which they thought had shut down the mines, the

:07:21.:07:25.

steel industry and eliminated 80% of jobs in the potteries. And

:07:26.:07:30.

immigration. This wasn't racism. This was about the effects of

:07:31.:07:34.

large-scale migration on public services and wage levels, in an

:07:35.:07:40.

already low wage city. I often put the case that the EU was a double

:07:41.:07:43.

walk against the records of localisation, vital for policing and

:07:44.:07:48.

national security, that 50% of our pottery exports went to the EU, that

:07:49.:07:52.

EU investment had assisted regeneration in North Staffordshire,

:07:53.:07:57.

and that our great universities of Staffordshire and Keele both

:07:58.:07:59.

benefited from EU funding. It made a difference. Now we need a Brexit

:08:00.:08:06.

that delivers for Stoke-on-Trent and other communities feeling left

:08:07.:08:11.

behind by globalisation and rapid socioeconomic change. The question

:08:12.:08:16.

is still out there. We'll judicial immigration control be in the

:08:17.:08:23.

detrimental to economic growth? Is that the site you want probably

:08:24.:08:26.

poorer but more equal? Sparta, rather than Rome. I continue to have

:08:27.:08:31.

great concerns about leaving the single market and its effects on

:08:32.:08:35.

British business and prosperity. As we leave European Union, there is

:08:36.:08:39.

also a moment for progressive reform. My right honourable friend

:08:40.:08:42.

the Wolverhampton South East member has made the case Marshall plan for

:08:43.:08:49.

parts of the Midlands and the to equip them for contemporary

:08:50.:08:54.

challenges. I think the House can think creatively about

:08:55.:08:56.

revolutionising our skills and training with a new focus on

:08:57.:09:05.

vocational education, and building new internationalism. The difference

:09:06.:09:08.

between a national popular politics, Post liberal vision of government

:09:09.:09:13.

action and which, or a vision of Britain as a low tax, more

:09:14.:09:18.

deregulated state in the Singapore Hong Kong model. It'll be

:09:19.:09:21.

interesting to see how these approaches play themselves out. I

:09:22.:09:25.

will watch Mr Speaker, these developments from my new post at the

:09:26.:09:28.

Victoria and Albert, a museum both European in its heritage, with

:09:29.:09:34.

Prince Albert instrumental in its foundation, as he felt Britain

:09:35.:09:41.

needed to follow the German model in design, technology and skills, but

:09:42.:09:44.

also proudly global, with a collection drawn from across the

:09:45.:09:49.

Empire and the wider world. It's currently exhibition exploring the

:09:50.:09:52.

life and legacy of John Lockwood Kipling, a sculptor and Potter from

:09:53.:09:57.

Stoke-on-Trent who went to Bombay but missed North Staffordshire so

:09:58.:10:02.

much that he named his son after a local beauty spot just north of

:10:03.:10:08.

Stoke. It speaks to mix of European and empirical influences. The V

:10:09.:10:13.

and other national median stands at the hub of our national creative

:10:14.:10:17.

sector, and if we are concerned with security, we need to reflect on the

:10:18.:10:22.

need for economic security. The UK's creative industries and are worth

:10:23.:10:25.

?85 billion a year to the UK economy. The creative industries are

:10:26.:10:29.

the fastest-growing sector of the UK economy, with the capacity to

:10:30.:10:33.

deliver further jobs and growth and a major component in soft power.

:10:34.:10:39.

Museums are sources of inspiration, innovation, creativity and synergy.

:10:40.:10:43.

The UK's museums are global leaders in their fields, and great drivers

:10:44.:10:47.

of British culture and identity right around the world. At the V,

:10:48.:10:51.

curators and introduced the brilliance of David Bowie's designs

:10:52.:10:55.

and Alexander McQueen's fashion right around the world. When it

:10:56.:11:00.

comes to Brexit, the V had other museums will continue to build their

:11:01.:11:04.

connections in China, India, the golf and elsewhere. But their

:11:05.:11:09.

success is also a European success -- the Gulf. The story of British

:11:10.:11:14.

art and design is also a story of European culture, and our place

:11:15.:11:17.

within it. More than that, so many who work in our control sector are

:11:18.:11:23.

EU citizens -- cultural sector. I welcome the recognition of the

:11:24.:11:25.

urgent need for a reciprocal arrangement with the EU on its

:11:26.:11:30.

nationals working in the UK, and those British citizens currently

:11:31.:11:34.

employed in the EU. Similarly, trade negotiations with the EU will need

:11:35.:11:37.

to recognise the importance of the digital sector, to the British

:11:38.:11:42.

economy. I think there is a broader Brexit issue for our leading

:11:43.:11:46.

cultural institutions. It seems to me that when there is this growing

:11:47.:11:51.

sense of disparity between the winners and losers of globalisation,

:11:52.:11:55.

museums and other cultural institutions need to help to lessen

:11:56.:11:59.

the division. In an age where art, design, the humanities and culture

:12:00.:12:04.

is so important for our competitiveness and quality-of-life,

:12:05.:12:06.

we cannot have London detaching itself from the rest of the UK. This

:12:07.:12:12.

is a chance to think more creatively about education provision, art and

:12:13.:12:16.

design and a real pressure in our schools. -- under real pressure. We

:12:17.:12:21.

need to build strong connections between rational and regional

:12:22.:12:27.

museums -- National. In short, Brexit demand stronger connection

:12:28.:12:30.

between South Kensington and Stoke-on-Trent. And I will try as

:12:31.:12:37.

director to do just that. Mr Speaker, the right Honourable member

:12:38.:12:41.

for Leeds Central's father famously said he was leaving Parliament to

:12:42.:12:44.

spend more time on politics. I'm not quite doing that, but everything

:12:45.:12:50.

that museums have a responsibility as places of learning, discourse and

:12:51.:12:55.

enquiry to interrogate in a nonpartisan way, the big challenges

:12:56.:13:00.

of the day. I hope to do just that, and I hope to see many of you there.

:13:01.:13:04.

Finally, let me place on record my thanks to my personal style. With in

:13:05.:13:09.

this palace, their work thousands of people writing, researching, probing

:13:10.:13:15.

and advising. For five long years, two people have helped me and my job

:13:16.:13:19.

enormously. Let me put on record my debt to the people of Stoke-on-Trent

:13:20.:13:22.

for sending me here, the greatest privilege of my life. I would like

:13:23.:13:26.

to thank the Chair for their indulgence in this speech this

:13:27.:13:33.

afternoon. Thank you. It is an enormous pleasure for me to follow

:13:34.:13:37.

the member for Stoke-on-Trent Central. He's my next door

:13:38.:13:42.

neighbour, pretty well. We talk regularly. We were even on a radio

:13:43.:13:47.

four programme, which he organised only a week ago on a is a bricks and

:13:48.:13:53.

all the matters he referred to. I regard him not only as an honourable

:13:54.:13:58.

member, but as a good friend. He referred just now to matters which

:13:59.:14:02.

really were rather reminiscent to what might have been a maiden

:14:03.:14:07.

speech. In a valedictory way. I think he say to him, he's performed

:14:08.:14:13.

great service to this house, and to his constituents. And I just simply

:14:14.:14:16.

want to put that on the record before getting into the more

:14:17.:14:18.

substantial questions before us today. Of course. I thank my

:14:19.:14:25.

honourable next-door neighbour. When he agreed with me that the

:14:26.:14:30.

soon-to-be departed member for Stoke-on-Trent Central has been a

:14:31.:14:35.

truly class act since 2010 in North Staffordshire and the potteries, not

:14:36.:14:39.

least his efforts to save the Wedgwood collection for the nation.

:14:40.:14:45.

And we are indebted to him for that. We've all taken an active part in

:14:46.:14:49.

trying to do what we can with regard to the museum, and it is marvellous

:14:50.:14:52.

not only that it should still be there, but that it is now insecure

:14:53.:15:00.

hands under the aegis of what is probably already under the director

:15:01.:15:06.

of the V himself. I don't know whether he's taken up his contract

:15:07.:15:10.

yet, but it's getting close to it! Anyway, thank you very much for

:15:11.:15:14.

everything that you've done in that context for our area and region. The

:15:15.:15:19.

honourable member, the right Honourable member, did refer to the

:15:20.:15:25.

question of whether or not under Brexit there would be a Britannia

:15:26.:15:26.

and changed. I can assure him is this will be a

:15:27.:15:35.

Britannia unchained and that is really to me the most important

:15:36.:15:39.

question of all for which I have devoted the best part of 30 years of

:15:40.:15:44.

my political life and I do believe very strongly that we will benefit

:15:45.:15:48.

enormously from this. It's been a long journey. It's been a very

:15:49.:15:52.

interesting historical journey as people will discover one day when

:15:53.:15:58.

they get the full measure of what has actually taken place. I do think

:15:59.:16:06.

it will benefit, not only my constituents, who represented 65% of

:16:07.:16:12.

the Leave vote in our area, but also the 70% in Stoke-on-Trent central

:16:13.:16:20.

itself. The other thing I would like to add is that the real question of

:16:21.:16:25.

the EU, which he referred to by reference to sovereignty as being

:16:26.:16:32.

one of of the main issues before his constituents, is also connected with

:16:33.:16:36.

the question of trust and the issue of trust is at the heart as I said

:16:37.:16:41.

yesterday after the Prime Minister's speech on a programme on Sky, is

:16:42.:16:45.

really at the heart of the reason why, not only for us and it is

:16:46.:16:48.

relevant to this particular debate because I am going to go on to the

:16:49.:16:54.

question of security, terrorism and crime. The question of trust is at

:16:55.:16:59.

the heart of the reason why, not only in this country, but across the

:17:00.:17:05.

whole of the European continent, which happens to be largely speaking

:17:06.:17:11.

within the European Union. This is not against Europe. This is against

:17:12.:17:14.

the European Union. This is what the vote is about. This is what the

:17:15.:17:20.

discontent is about. The lack of trust between the member states

:17:21.:17:26.

themselves, the lack of trust between the citizens and the

:17:27.:17:31.

institutions and the elites in their member states who have implemented

:17:32.:17:36.

these arrangements which simply have not worked, which have generated

:17:37.:17:42.

monumental degrees of unemployment, up to 60% in some countries,

:17:43.:17:47.

including countries such as Greece and Spain, etc. The problems that

:17:48.:17:56.

come from an overdominating Germany, which has had a detrimental effect

:17:57.:18:02.

on stability in terms of the progress and evolution of the

:18:03.:18:06.

European Union, which has destabilised and created the very

:18:07.:18:12.

insecurity, the very stability which people wanted to deal with in the

:18:13.:18:16.

aftermath of the Second World War in which my own father was killed

:18:17.:18:24.

fighting in 1944 and won the Military Cross of which I am very

:18:25.:18:29.

proud. I would simply say this, I voted Yes in 1975, I wanted to see a

:18:30.:18:35.

situation which could work, but unfortunately the manner in which

:18:36.:18:40.

this has developed has become dysfunctional. What I am so glad

:18:41.:18:45.

about and in fact in the debate yesterday on the statement, the

:18:46.:18:50.

discussion that took place I noticed a sense of Realism that was bearing

:18:51.:18:57.

in on so many members because we have to make this work. It is not

:18:58.:19:01.

anti-European to be pro-democracy and I know there are good and honest

:19:02.:19:07.

Remainers who are still worried about the outcome but I say to them,

:19:08.:19:15.

have confidence. Have trust. Have trust in the people as Lord

:19:16.:19:18.

Churchill said in the 19th century, but this is not a 19th century

:19:19.:19:23.

problem. It's a 21st century problem. It is a fact, it is not

:19:24.:19:31.

just a generalisation, this is not Euroscepticism in a negative sense.

:19:32.:19:34.

It's about trying to ensure that we have proper democracy and that when

:19:35.:19:42.

we get on to the issue of the repeal bill that we will regain the ability

:19:43.:19:51.

to achieve the reaffirmation of Westminster jurisdiction. And what

:19:52.:19:56.

does that actually mean? It means that we will be implementing in this

:19:57.:20:03.

chamber the decisions that are taken by the electors in general elections

:20:04.:20:08.

from which those very people fought and died, which is a crucial issue

:20:09.:20:12.

for the future of Europe, as well. It doesn't just apply to us, but we

:20:13.:20:16.

are the first to have the opportunity to do something about it

:20:17.:20:21.

because we had a referendum for which some of us fought for so long.

:20:22.:20:27.

The other day in the European Parliament we were discussing

:20:28.:20:32.

matters of security and terrorism and all the rest and the chairman of

:20:33.:20:39.

the constitutional affairs committee of the European Parliament, with

:20:40.:20:44.

whom I have fought por the best part of 20-odd years in various forums in

:20:45.:20:51.

the European Union, actually accused in front of about 300 people, the

:20:52.:20:55.

chairman of various parliamentary committees from all over the

:20:56.:21:01.

European Union, he accused the United Kingdom of cowardice in

:21:02.:21:06.

holding a referendum, to which I replied, it was an act of courage,

:21:07.:21:12.

it was not an act of cowardice because we have seized the

:21:13.:21:17.

opportunity in defence of the security and the necessity to have a

:21:18.:21:22.

proper democratic system in the United Kingdom and we are now going

:21:23.:21:27.

to be able to implement it. I want to say that with respect to this

:21:28.:21:32.

business of justice and home affairs and all that goes with it, of course

:21:33.:21:40.

the decisions are taken as my European scrutiny committee reported

:21:41.:21:44.

back in, I think it was April or May this year, last year, before the

:21:45.:21:48.

referendum itself, and we held an inquiry into the manner in which

:21:49.:21:52.

decisions were taken in the Council of Ministers. Now I am prepared to

:21:53.:21:58.

bet that there are people in this chamber who do not know that there

:21:59.:22:05.

are virtually no votes taken in the European Council of Ministers which

:22:06.:22:09.

through the European Communities Act comes straight down into this

:22:10.:22:14.

chamber and we are under an obligation under this 1972 Act to

:22:15.:22:19.

implement those decisions that are taken, quite often stitched up

:22:20.:22:22.

behind closed doors on matters of the kind that we are now discussing,

:22:23.:22:29.

which are of direct relevance to the whole question of security,

:22:30.:22:32.

terrorism and crime and if they don't know that that is the way in

:22:33.:22:35.

which this system actually functions, I strongly advise them,

:22:36.:22:39.

either to speak to me privately and I can provide them with further

:22:40.:22:43.

information, which I am not going to go into in this chamber this

:22:44.:22:47.

afternoon, but which are absolutely vital to the question of democracy

:22:48.:22:51.

because these decisions are not taken on the democratic basis in the

:22:52.:22:54.

way in which the people have imagined. And that is a reason in

:22:55.:23:00.

itself for our getting out of the European Union and I can only say I

:23:01.:23:06.

was absolutely delighted by what the Prime Minister said yesterday. As I

:23:07.:23:11.

said in the statement, it was principled, it was reasonable and it

:23:12.:23:18.

was statesmanlike. Now, on the question specifically of justice and

:23:19.:23:24.

home affairs, this, of course, was intended to be intergovernmental.

:23:25.:23:27.

This was never meant to be something which was going to be governed by

:23:28.:23:32.

majority voting and the rest. This was meant to be a separate pillar.

:23:33.:23:41.

But if I say this to the honourable gentleman and ladies opposite, they,

:23:42.:23:46.

under Tony Blair, collapsed the pillar so that it became part of the

:23:47.:23:50.

treaties subject to the court of justice, as well. That was never the

:23:51.:23:55.

original intention. So what we are doing in this debate is engaging in

:23:56.:24:03.

some element of deja-vu but also providing ourselves with the

:24:04.:24:07.

opportunity to be able to indicate the extent to which we move forward

:24:08.:24:11.

after Brexit into a different environment where the decisions on

:24:12.:24:16.

all these incredibly important matters are dealt with by this House

:24:17.:24:22.

on the basis of votes cast by the voters of the United Kingdom and

:24:23.:24:29.

nobody else. The repeal bill I drafted in May, last year, and I

:24:30.:24:33.

submitted it to various people and as a result of a process which I

:24:34.:24:39.

don't need to go into in detail it was accepted by the Government, in

:24:40.:24:43.

principle and I have no doubt that the exact wording will be slightly

:24:44.:24:46.

changed, somewhat changed, but that doesn't matter. I set out five

:24:47.:24:50.

principles and I am not going to go into those now, other than to say

:24:51.:24:55.

that it meant that we would withdrew from the European Union and that we

:24:56.:24:58.

would transpose all the legislation that was currently within the

:24:59.:25:03.

framework of the EU jurisdiction into our own Westminster

:25:04.:25:05.

jurisdiction specifically and thereafter we would deal with it as

:25:06.:25:10.

we go forward and we just had - the reason I apologise for not being

:25:11.:25:15.

here a bit earlier, I was in for the opening debates, is because I was

:25:16.:25:22.

cross-examining with my colleague, the member for Somerset and Froome

:25:23.:25:30.

and others, David Lidington and we had important questions to put to

:25:31.:25:35.

him and we got some very interesting answers. But this repeal bill is

:25:36.:25:43.

actually going to require very, very careful attention and we are going

:25:44.:25:49.

to be able as a result of that to re-introduce into this House a

:25:50.:25:51.

proper democratic system. There will be things we will accept as a matter

:25:52.:25:57.

of policy and we heard some of those yesterday in what the Prime Minister

:25:58.:26:03.

said in her brilliant speech. The fact is that we have got to absorb

:26:04.:26:07.

some of the issues but what we can not do is to absorb the court of

:26:08.:26:13.

justice and this particular subject matter and this particular debate

:26:14.:26:19.

raises the Court of Justice probably as much as any other subject matter

:26:20.:26:24.

within the framework of the European Union as a whole.

:26:25.:26:28.

Now the Prime Minister's speech yesterday made clear that the UK

:26:29.:26:34.

will continue to co-operate with its European partners in important areas

:26:35.:26:38.

such as crime and terrorism once we leave the EU. Faced with common

:26:39.:26:43.

security threats she indicated, and I quote, our response cannot be to

:26:44.:26:49.

co-operate with one another less, but to work together more. Subject,

:26:50.:26:53.

of course, to the question of the Court of Justice. And to ensure that

:26:54.:26:58.

the UK's future relationship with the EU includes, and I quote,

:26:59.:27:04.

practical arrangements on matters of law enforcement and the sharing of

:27:05.:27:07.

intelligence material with our EU allies. She went on to make clear

:27:08.:27:12.

that the Government, and I quote again, will take back control of our

:27:13.:27:18.

laws and bring an end to the jurisdiction of the European Court

:27:19.:27:22.

of justice. As chairman of the European scrutiny committee, I and

:27:23.:27:28.

my colleagues such as the member for Somerset and Froome, from which my

:27:29.:27:31.

wife comes, I should have remembered that, I continue to see a raft of EU

:27:32.:27:37.

initiatives in this sensitive area of law enforcement and security

:27:38.:27:40.

co-operation. The Government tells us that while the UK remains a

:27:41.:27:46.

member of the EU, all rights and obligations of EU membership remain

:27:47.:27:51.

in force and tla is true and the Government will and I quote,

:27:52.:27:55.

continue to negotiate, implement and apply EU legislation. Although I do

:27:56.:28:07.

say quite explicitly and I put this to Mr Lidington this afternoon as

:28:08.:28:14.

the leader of the House, that it is absolutely essential that in the

:28:15.:28:19.

period of time while we are engaged in these negotiations that we have

:28:20.:28:36.

proper explaintory memoranda. We have to - where there is in a

:28:37.:28:44.

position to vote against them to do so, and where there is a question of

:28:45.:28:49.

qualifying majority vote, we require a vote and not this stitching-up

:28:50.:28:55.

behind closed doors and at the same time we give reasons as my committee

:28:56.:29:00.

recommended to increase the transparency and accountability

:29:01.:29:05.

because some of these matters are so important to the skrurt and to the

:29:06.:29:11.

question of terrorism and all that goes with it that we really, if we

:29:12.:29:16.

don't believe that what they're proposing is in our national

:29:17.:29:19.

interest we must take a stand and the Government, in my opinion, has

:29:20.:29:23.

an absolute requirement to make sure that is there on the face of the

:29:24.:29:28.

record so that if we don't like something that is being proposed,

:29:29.:29:31.

although the generalisation which is that we want to try to achieve a

:29:32.:29:37.

degree of co-operation is important, that we do not allow things to go

:29:38.:29:43.

through by consensus in unsmoked filled rooms which are not in the

:29:44.:29:48.

UK's interest and which we would never contemplate accepting in a

:29:49.:29:52.

post-Brexit situation and if we had our wits about us would never have

:29:53.:29:56.

accepted in the first place. So, there is that issue to be

:29:57.:30:01.

considered which is a matter of European scrutiny process and my

:30:02.:30:04.

committee is looking into that very closely.

:30:05.:30:13.

The further point is that as the House will recall the previous

:30:14.:30:17.

coalition Government decided that it would be in the UK's national

:30:18.:30:22.

interest to rejoin 35 EU police and criminal justice measures which were

:30:23.:30:27.

adopted before the Lisbon Treaty took effect and was subject to the

:30:28.:30:34.

UK's 2014 block opt-out decision. These includure poll, euro justice,

:30:35.:30:39.

the European arrest warrant, joint investigation teams and important

:30:40.:30:45.

data-sharing instruments, notably the Sche in, gen information system,

:30:46.:30:49.

the European criminal records information system and the so-called

:30:50.:30:53.

Swedish initiative which provides a simplified mechanism for the

:30:54.:30:57.

exchange of law enforcement information and intelligence.

:30:58.:31:04.

The Prime Minister, then Home Secretary has rejoined the measures

:31:05.:31:13.

which provided the exchanging of DNA profiles, fingerprinting and vehicle

:31:14.:31:17.

registration data. United Kingdom also participates in the European

:31:18.:31:21.

investigation order which will take effect in May this year and many

:31:22.:31:27.

other criminal justice measures. I have to say, with regards to what is

:31:28.:31:31.

going on in relation to the current new EU justice and home affairs

:31:32.:31:35.

proposals, there appears to be inadequate recognition in the

:31:36.:31:45.

context in which the UK will continue to negotiate, implement and

:31:46.:31:50.

imply the legislation has changed profoundly because of Brexit. To

:31:51.:31:55.

quote the Prime Minister, the UK is leaving the European Union but the

:31:56.:31:58.

Government cannot continue with business as usual and I have to say

:31:59.:32:03.

that I do trust that said Tim Barrow will carry on as the new UK

:32:04.:32:10.

representative in a way that be entirely consistent with what is

:32:11.:32:15.

required in relation to this business to which I have already

:32:16.:32:20.

referred. We cannot continue with business as usual in the handling of

:32:21.:32:25.

sensitive EU Justice and home affairs proposals with the European

:32:26.:32:32.

Parliament. Given that the UK is under no obligation to participate

:32:33.:32:37.

in most new EU Justice and home proposals, the Government must

:32:38.:32:42.

explain in each case and put to The Record how a decision to opt in

:32:43.:32:45.

would be in the national interest and would be considered with taking

:32:46.:32:51.

back our laws. Control of our laws as the Prime Minister said an ending

:32:52.:32:56.

the jurisdiction of the European Court. Since last June and the

:32:57.:32:59.

referendum, the European scrutiny committee has pressed the Government

:33:00.:33:03.

to clarify how these measures will be affected by the UK's decision to

:33:04.:33:16.

leave. Under the repeal they will otherwise have to have significant

:33:17.:33:18.

adjustments as to how that is handled. What sort of relationship

:33:19.:33:22.

does the Government intend to establish with the Euro poll or

:33:23.:33:27.

Eurojust. Will it seek an agreement to enable the UK to apply a new

:33:28.:33:33.

arrangement regarding the European arrest warrant. We can't have it

:33:34.:33:37.

both ways, you can't be out of the jurisdiction of the EU court and

:33:38.:33:45.

have the laws interpreted by the judges in Luxembourg, it won't

:33:46.:33:49.

happen, it can't happen so that has to be taken on board. What

:33:50.:33:53.

assessments as the Government made on the operational value on the E U

:33:54.:33:58.

data-sharing? Would access to these instruments require the UK to apply

:33:59.:34:03.

with data protection laws in practice, even if it is no longer

:34:04.:34:10.

under a legal obligation to do so. Answers to these questions are

:34:11.:34:12.

fundamental because otherwise we would not be able to implement the

:34:13.:34:18.

commitment to take back control of our laws and bring an end to the

:34:19.:34:24.

jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. As I said in an

:34:25.:34:28.

intervention at an earlier debates, what we have to take into account is

:34:29.:34:34.

this, this business of justice home affairs, terrorism, security and all

:34:35.:34:41.

of the problems which have accumulated in this 21st-century are

:34:42.:34:46.

not exclusive to the European Union, they apply across the whole world.

:34:47.:34:52.

The fact that the European Union exists and that it has developed a

:34:53.:34:57.

body of law and this framework of law doesn't give it any absolute

:34:58.:35:01.

value, the questionnaires we have been legislating in this house and

:35:02.:35:06.

its predecessors for the best part of 400 years. We don't need to be

:35:07.:35:11.

told how to do this, yes we want to cooperate with other countries but

:35:12.:35:14.

for heaven sake, let us take on board the fact that are able to work

:35:15.:35:21.

out what is in interest of our citizens in accordance with what

:35:22.:35:26.

they say in general elections. We will have our own immigration bill

:35:27.:35:28.

and it'll do what the British people want because they will have voted

:35:29.:35:32.

for it and not simply have it imposed upon us by these deals done

:35:33.:35:39.

behind closed doors. We are talking about very important matters and I

:35:40.:35:46.

would simply say as a result of the decision that has been taken by the

:35:47.:35:49.

British people and I pay tribute to them, I don't pay tribute to the

:35:50.:35:54.

campaigns, I thought the project fear campaign was a disgrace and I

:35:55.:35:58.

said so in this house when it was going on, and I don't think there

:35:59.:36:04.

was any treaty change, I challenge the Prime Minister and put the

:36:05.:36:09.

matter to the speaker as well and that was around the middle of June

:36:10.:36:12.

and the Prime Minister was gone by the time the tee end of that month.

:36:13.:36:23.

We didn't cover ourselves with glory on either side of the campaign and

:36:24.:36:26.

there are things I regret so I did my own campaign in my own area and

:36:27.:36:37.

I'm glad to say in our area we notched up anything between 65-72%

:36:38.:36:43.

to leave and he was quite right, it was about sovereignty and the very

:36:44.:36:47.

matters I'm talking about here. It was about whether we could run our

:36:48.:36:52.

own country through our representation in this house. It

:36:53.:36:56.

really is as fundamental as that. Everything else pales into

:36:57.:36:59.

insignificance compared to democracy if it is properly conducted and is

:37:00.:37:03.

absolutely for sure that the current European Union is undemocratic and

:37:04.:37:10.

it is good that we are getting out. One that I want to finish on is this

:37:11.:37:20.

that with respect to today'sbusiness, our committee have

:37:21.:37:24.

released a press release on another matter, it is about whether UK

:37:25.:37:29.

nationals will need authorisation to travel to the Schengen area post

:37:30.:37:37.

Brexit. The fact is, the United Kingdom is not entitled to

:37:38.:37:42.

participate, but the Government will have to monitor negotiations

:37:43.:37:47.

closely. My committee is asking the following, what are main differences

:37:48.:37:55.

the modern proposed on a full Schengen Visa regime, what access

:37:56.:38:03.

the Government is seeking for UK nationals post Brexit and if the

:38:04.:38:07.

Government intends to press for an exemption for the new travel

:38:08.:38:11.

authorisation for UK nationals post Brexit or to seek instead to

:38:12.:38:17.

minimise that cost and complexity of the application process and if the

:38:18.:38:20.

Government is unable to secure an exemption, whether it would wish to

:38:21.:38:23.

introduce a reciprocal travel authorisation system for EU

:38:24.:38:27.

nationals travelling to the United Kingdom after Brexit. All of these

:38:28.:38:32.

matters are in a press release which is being presented to the media this

:38:33.:38:37.

afternoon. I sincerely trust that they will give it the kind of

:38:38.:38:41.

attention it deserves. I conclude simply by saying I think this is a

:38:42.:38:46.

vitally important debate, it is the best example of an area which

:38:47.:38:50.

impinges directly on citizens. Elsewhere in the European Union,

:38:51.:38:56.

there is massive resistance building up to EU proposals by the citizens,

:38:57.:39:02.

we have had our votes, we had our referendum, the people decided that

:39:03.:39:07.

we would get out, that is what we were doing, let's implement it and

:39:08.:39:14.

get on with it. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Before I start

:39:15.:39:18.

speaking, I would like to place my personal tribute to my honourable

:39:19.:39:21.

friend from stroke to the Stoke-on-Trent. I would also like to

:39:22.:39:32.

say thank you because he wrote me a very long handwritten letter after

:39:33.:39:37.

my maiden speech which was much appreciated. I am in danger of

:39:38.:39:43.

breaking the rule set I will get onto the debate at hand and speak

:39:44.:39:47.

about the issues. The problem of being so low on the pecking order is

:39:48.:39:51.

that everything has been said and articulated very well by others

:39:52.:39:57.

before May I thought I would speak about the worries my constituents

:39:58.:40:06.

have. 75% voted to remain and in a surge voted on continuing security

:40:07.:40:11.

incorporation with their European partners and many other actors which

:40:12.:40:17.

had been raised in this debate. There is a... London residents are

:40:18.:40:28.

obviously not alone in their experience of the devastation

:40:29.:40:32.

inflicted by terrorism but they're particularly clear minded about the

:40:33.:40:37.

value of EU wide security arrangements in bringing people to

:40:38.:40:42.

justice and the honourable Member for Bath already referenced a time

:40:43.:40:45.

when the European arrest warrant played a crucial role in allowing

:40:46.:40:50.

police to do their jobs, help keep London are safe and bring offenders

:40:51.:40:54.

to justice. He famously cited the example in 2005 when the failed

:40:55.:41:03.

bomber Hussain Osman was brought to justice within just a few weeks

:41:04.:41:09.

because of the fact that he had access to the European arrest

:41:10.:41:13.

warrant. Other agencies and conventions such as Euro poll which

:41:14.:41:18.

has been mentioned several times and the European criminal records

:41:19.:41:21.

information system help combat crime across borders through international

:41:22.:41:28.

cooperation and sharing forensics data. For a global city like London

:41:29.:41:33.

where my constituency is based, abandoning European security could

:41:34.:41:40.

compromise our effectiveness in confronting a number of issues

:41:41.:41:45.

beyond terrorism including human trafficking, intellectual property

:41:46.:41:48.

crime, money-laundering and organised crime groups. I believe my

:41:49.:41:54.

friend the Mayor of London was right to demand that London has a seat

:41:55.:41:59.

around the table along the devolved nations in ensuring continental

:42:00.:42:05.

security is kept intact. It was extremely disappointing to see no

:42:06.:42:10.

direct reference to London's additional law enforcement needs in

:42:11.:42:12.

the Prime Minister 's statement yesterday. The Government 's

:42:13.:42:18.

decision in December to opt into new Euro poll regulations was a welcome

:42:19.:42:23.

one and in principle would appear to back up the Prime Minister's word on

:42:24.:42:28.

maintaining a continental approach when gathering criminal intelligence

:42:29.:42:33.

and producing threat assessments. Londoners will want to know not just

:42:34.:42:37.

in my constituency but everywhere whether these regulations we have

:42:38.:42:41.

adopted will at last the EU negotiations and whether the

:42:42.:42:47.

Government will develop alternative framework corporations on security

:42:48.:42:52.

matters and on the outlined matters. Only when we have such answers for

:42:53.:42:57.

my constituents be reassured that their security needs and those of

:42:58.:43:01.

fellow Londoners are being considered with the utmost care by

:43:02.:43:08.

this government. Beyond information sharing with a European partners, it

:43:09.:43:11.

is clear that Brexit will pose financial challenges to the economy.

:43:12.:43:18.

One area that we will be scrutinising is of course the money

:43:19.:43:23.

spent on policing and the current spend in arranging any post Brexit

:43:24.:43:28.

settlements, the Home Office must fully recognise London's position as

:43:29.:43:36.

a major global capital. It is a city which incurs extra security cost in

:43:37.:43:40.

trying to keep the large population safe when major policing events take

:43:41.:43:44.

place and protecting our famous landmarks such as the parliament we

:43:45.:43:48.

sat in today. At present this extra needs cost, ?300 million a year,

:43:49.:43:56.

London only receives funding for barely half of this amount. When

:43:57.:44:02.

addressing our post Brexit security and law enforcement needs, making

:44:03.:44:05.

sure the capital has the money to protect itself will be the utmost

:44:06.:44:10.

importance and we would like answers from the ministers on this. There

:44:11.:44:14.

are a few other questions I would like the Minister to answer. Will he

:44:15.:44:18.

ensure the Home Office will give the full amount in knees through the

:44:19.:44:24.

international capitals city 's grant. There is currently over ?100

:44:25.:44:29.

million shortfall and threatens the police ability to protect Londoners.

:44:30.:44:38.

Will the Minister make it clear what future is ahead with Europe. This

:44:39.:44:44.

future is vital to access criminal records, yet we know the deputy

:44:45.:44:47.

chairman of the EU has made it clear to Denmark that they should not be

:44:48.:44:54.

under any illusions to create a parallel membership. Finally, the

:44:55.:45:00.

question asked over and over again, what is our future relationship with

:45:01.:45:05.

the European arrest warrant. The DPP was clear in November that up to 150

:45:06.:45:12.

essential additions would not have been possible without the system and

:45:13.:45:16.

our relationship with it and the former director-general of MI6

:45:17.:45:21.

warned that losing abilities such as this would make the UK less safe. I

:45:22.:45:28.

hope that the Minister will make clear in his closing statement how

:45:29.:45:31.

we can continue to protect our citizens and to protect London.

:45:32.:45:36.

I urge him to address these practical security questions which

:45:37.:45:42.

would even earn some goodwill from those who will be sat on the other

:45:43.:45:48.

side of the negotiating table today. The number one priority of any

:45:49.:45:51.

Government which I am sure the Minister will recognise is to ensure

:45:52.:45:55.

the security of its civilians and for me at the moment it's not

:45:56.:46:00.

entirely clear how the Government intends to do this. Thank you. In

:46:01.:46:10.

the aftermath of the September 11th attacks, I think there was a

:46:11.:46:14.

recognition that something had to be done to speed up extradition

:46:15.:46:18.

processes and reduce the amount of bureaucracy involved. That in

:46:19.:46:21.

addition to the fact that some career criminals seemed to be using

:46:22.:46:27.

places like Spain, the so-called Costa Del Crime as a permanent home,

:46:28.:46:30.

meant that I was happy to give the Government at the time the benefit

:46:31.:46:34.

of the doubt and have always supported the principle of a

:46:35.:46:38.

European arrest warrant and we have heard many important speeches in

:46:39.:46:41.

support of it today. I don't really disgree with the principle of what

:46:42.:46:44.

is being said. But it cannot be denied that there have been cases

:46:45.:46:51.

that have given rise to concern, because the European extradition

:46:52.:46:54.

warrant makes an assumption that standards of justice are the same in

:46:55.:47:00.

all EU countries, that standards within prisons are the same and that

:47:01.:47:03.

bail conditions are going to be the same as well. In short, that human

:47:04.:47:08.

rights are respected in exactly the same way across the European Union.

:47:09.:47:13.

My honourable friend, who is the member - the chairman of the Justice

:47:14.:47:19.

Committee and the member for Bromley and Chislehurst actually said that

:47:20.:47:22.

he had no doubt at all that standards of justice in Germany and

:47:23.:47:25.

France were exactly the same as they are in the UK and I don't really

:47:26.:47:30.

have any doubt about that either. But I do have concerns about the

:47:31.:47:34.

standards of justice overall that take place in other parts of the

:47:35.:47:41.

European Union. Some of the cases I think have been briefly mentioned.

:47:42.:47:45.

One case where someone spent almost a year in praise having been denied

:47:46.:47:49.

bail because he was not a Greek resident, in other words, he was

:47:50.:47:52.

extradited because he was a European but unable to get bail because he

:47:53.:47:56.

wasn't actually Greek. He served time in some pretty awful places.

:47:57.:48:01.

Now, both the member for Bromley and Chislehurst and myself are members

:48:02.:48:05.

of the Council of Europe and I don't know what visits he has made but I

:48:06.:48:08.

have certainly seen a Greek detention centre and having served

:48:09.:48:13.

as a special constable I would say that the conditions were illegal

:48:14.:48:17.

under any European rules and regulations and we were shown a room

:48:18.:48:19.

probably not much bigger than half the size or a quarter of the size of

:48:20.:48:24.

this chamber which contained around 30-40 people who were being held in

:48:25.:48:33.

those conditions for up to a year for various immigration infractions

:48:34.:48:36.

and as far as I can understand it were given little time out of those

:48:37.:48:40.

conditions. It would have been unacceptable to hold anyone in

:48:41.:48:44.

conditions like that for 48 hours in a UK police station and it comes to

:48:45.:48:49.

something when people are begging to be sent to a Greek prison because

:48:50.:48:56.

conditions there are so bad. Another case someone tried within 48 hours

:48:57.:48:59.

of being arrested. He hadn't been involved. He was released but then

:49:00.:49:03.

subsequently there was a demand for him to return to Portugal to serve a

:49:04.:49:09.

two-year sentence. He wasn't given access to the sort of facilities

:49:10.:49:13.

which we take for granted, for example, translation facilities

:49:14.:49:16.

which are very important. There have been other cases. One which I saw on

:49:17.:49:20.

the Fair Trials International website. I hadn't been aware of

:49:21.:49:24.

before, but apparently he was convicted of murder in his absence,

:49:25.:49:28.

despite the fact that at the time the murder took place he was working

:49:29.:49:31.

or studying in the United Kingdom and on the day that it happened

:49:32.:49:34.

there were numerous witnesses to say that he was in the United Kingdom

:49:35.:49:37.

and nowhere near the country where this murder was supposed to have

:49:38.:49:41.

taken place. Yet, he went through years of hell because of the strong

:49:42.:49:44.

possibility that he would have actually been extradited to Italy to

:49:45.:49:50.

serve I think a 19-year sentence. At least in these instances one

:49:51.:49:53.

could say that the motivation behind them was to reduce crime and to deal

:49:54.:49:58.

with straightforward criminality. Even if we might think that the

:49:59.:50:01.

standards being applied here were simply not good enough. But there

:50:02.:50:04.

are other cases now beginning to emerge which have an even more

:50:05.:50:10.

worrying motivation. I want to pay particular attention to what the

:50:11.:50:13.

Romanian Government are doing at the moment. They have indicated they may

:50:14.:50:22.

serve an arrest warrant against an award-winning Sky jornlist and his

:50:23.:50:27.

team, I believe Stuart Ramsey, who put together a documentary about

:50:28.:50:30.

gun-running in Romania and the Government didn't like it. I don't

:50:31.:50:34.

know whether the claims made were accurate, I have no reason to doubt

:50:35.:50:40.

them. If governments don't like journalists stories about them they

:50:41.:50:42.

have the right to rebut those stories. It is simply unacceptable

:50:43.:50:47.

for governments to start issuing arrest and judicial proceedings

:50:48.:50:51.

against journalists who have upset them T would never ever be

:50:52.:50:54.

acceptable in this country. There is another case going on at the moment

:50:55.:50:59.

which I find particularly worrying and that's the extradition warrant

:51:00.:51:06.

being served against another, also by the Romanian Government. His

:51:07.:51:10.

father runs a newspaper in Romania which has been highly critical of

:51:11.:51:15.

the Romanian Government. The Romanian Government, the Prime

:51:16.:51:17.

Minister at the time actually said that he was corrupt, had him

:51:18.:51:20.

arrested. He was found guilty within a short space of time. There were

:51:21.:51:24.

all sorts of reasons why one might question the court case but it's not

:51:25.:51:27.

for me to do so here. The point is that when his son, who is a UK

:51:28.:51:34.

resident and an aspiring playwrite, filed charges against the Romanian

:51:35.:51:37.

Government, his son was served with a European arrest warrant and was

:51:38.:51:42.

arrested on the streets of London on his way to speak to the front line

:51:43.:51:47.

club about the importance of journalistic freedoms. There was an

:51:48.:51:52.

attempt to kidnap his wife by masked men as well, which still hasn't been

:51:53.:51:55.

properly dealt with and nobody has been found. These are very, very

:51:56.:51:59.

worrying cases because it gives rise to the kerb concern that rather than

:52:00.:52:04.

-- rise to the concern that rather than having people arrested to

:52:05.:52:07.

resolve criminality, some governments, it looked on the basis

:52:08.:52:10.

of those two cases, the Romanian Government is one that worries me,

:52:11.:52:14.

seem to be using the arrest warrant to send out a message that anyone

:52:15.:52:18.

who questions them or tries to hold them to account will face the risk

:52:19.:52:21.

of being taken off the streets of the country in which they are

:52:22.:52:25.

resident, arrested and sent back to Romania for trial. Of course I give

:52:26.:52:30.

way. Another problem which the scrutiny committee has looked at in

:52:31.:52:34.

the past and we had the Fair Trials Abroad team in to give us evidence,

:52:35.:52:38.

and that is that some of the judges of course are politically appointed.

:52:39.:52:44.

Well, I think my honourable friend makes a very important point. I just

:52:45.:52:50.

really want to say that I have listened with great interest to what

:52:51.:52:53.

has been said. I was a supporter of Brexit but that in no way mean that

:52:54.:52:57.

is I am opposing the European arrest warrant or the principle behind it

:52:58.:53:01.

because of that. Of course I give way. I thank my honourable friend

:53:02.:53:06.

for giving way. Does he agree with me that actually the European arrest

:53:07.:53:11.

warrant has benefitted some of our constituents. Four days before

:53:12.:53:14.

Christmas a father in my constituency was reunited with his

:53:15.:53:20.

son that had been abducted and taken to Poland and he was recovered on

:53:21.:53:24.

the issuing of the European arrest warrant. Absolutely. I don't deny

:53:25.:53:31.

for one minute it's led to some very important results for us where we

:53:32.:53:35.

have had terrorists and other serious criminals either extradited

:53:36.:53:39.

out of the UK or extradited back to the United Kingdom. I don't doubt

:53:40.:53:44.

this for one moment. As the honourable lady knows I served as a

:53:45.:53:48.

special constable for eight or nine years, there is no question I will

:53:49.:53:51.

always support any Government in wanting to bring about stricter

:53:52.:53:55.

measures against criminality. But the issue here is this, that there

:53:56.:53:59.

is a price to be paid and we pay it in the human rights of citizens in

:54:00.:54:03.

our own country, if we are prepared to allow countries which apply a

:54:04.:54:08.

lower standard of justice or a lower standard of fairness within courts

:54:09.:54:11.

or a lower standard of access to bail, if we are prepared to allow

:54:12.:54:17.

those countries to extradite our citizens or residents of this

:54:18.:54:21.

country in order to keep the bureaucracy running smoothly, then

:54:22.:54:23.

everyone who is living in this country is paying a price in terms

:54:24.:54:30.

of their human rights in order to reduce bureaucracy and improve an

:54:31.:54:33.

extradition procedure and we need to think carefully about that price.

:54:34.:54:37.

Brexit does offer us an opportunity here. I have no problem with the

:54:38.:54:41.

countries the honourable gentleman from Bromley mentioned with Germany

:54:42.:54:44.

or France or many of the other European countries, but if it

:54:45.:54:47.

becomes the case that some countries are not giving people bail, holding

:54:48.:54:53.

them in pretrial detention for an unacceptable length of time or using

:54:54.:54:56.

the European arrest warrant as a means to silence criticism of them

:54:57.:55:00.

through the press, then it's absolutely right that we use Brexit

:55:01.:55:04.

as an opportunity to renegotiate the whole system to work with countries

:55:05.:55:08.

that apply our systems of justice but to say with the utmost respect

:55:09.:55:13.

we are unwilling to sacrifice the human rights of some people in order

:55:14.:55:19.

to maintain membership of the European arrest warrant and I hope

:55:20.:55:22.

the Minister will meet me to discuss this case on a subsequent occasion.

:55:23.:55:33.

It's a pleasure to follow the honourable member, even if I don't

:55:34.:55:35.

always agree on everything he has to say. Can I extend my best wishes to

:55:36.:55:39.

the member for Stoke-on-Trent as he starts a new chapter in his career,

:55:40.:55:45.

as well. I am pleased to take part in this important debate where there

:55:46.:55:51.

is probably an unusually wide degree of consensus, participation in EU

:55:52.:55:54.

schemes does bring value and Government should be doing it can to

:55:55.:55:58.

keep the UK as closely involved as possible and certainly on these

:55:59.:56:02.

benches, if Brexit is to happen we believe it is utterly essential that

:56:03.:56:05.

we do everything open to us to preserve our involvement to the

:56:06.:56:10.

maximum degree achievable in these negotiations. Success in that

:56:11.:56:18.

ambition cannot be taken for granted. As the Minister said it is

:56:19.:56:22.

in the interests of the other EU member states to see the UK involved

:56:23.:56:26.

and yes it is undoubtedly true that the UK contribution to these

:56:27.:56:30.

institutions is very much valued and is very significant. Indeed it is no

:56:31.:56:34.

doubt a matter of huge regret that a member state has been hugely

:56:35.:56:40.

influential in shaping initiatives such as the European arrest

:56:41.:56:43.

warrants, has now ongoing participation in these schemes at

:56:44.:56:48.

risk. However, nobody should be complacent that securing meaningful

:56:49.:56:51.

ongoing participation will be straightforward. All evidence shows

:56:52.:56:55.

there are significant political and legal hurdles to overcome, a point

:56:56.:56:59.

that was well made by the Shadow Minister in her opening remarks. The

:57:00.:57:04.

justice and home affairs issues are areas of shared competence and so

:57:05.:57:07.

agreements on participation, it may well need approval from both EU

:57:08.:57:11.

institutions and individual member states and in some of these states

:57:12.:57:15.

that will involve either parliamentary ratification or even

:57:16.:57:19.

referenda, if necessary. All that will be made more complex still if

:57:20.:57:23.

the Government is going to go about setting out clear red lines which

:57:24.:57:26.

make those hurdles even more difficult to overcome. That would

:57:27.:57:30.

include the Prime Minister's obsession with escaping any aspect

:57:31.:57:33.

of the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice and that was a point that

:57:34.:57:37.

the honourable member was right to raise at the start of this debate.

:57:38.:57:42.

So let me turn first of all to just a couple of the schemes and

:57:43.:57:45.

institutions that I believe it is vital we seek to preserve a refor

:57:46.:57:49.

the UK in. The European arrest warrant as others have said has seen

:57:50.:57:53.

a step change in how quickly suspects and criminals can be

:57:54.:57:56.

repatriated to face justice and I won't go through the benefits

:57:57.:58:00.

highlighted so far. Last May the then Home Secretary told the home

:58:01.:58:03.

affairs committee that if we are not in the European Union we would

:58:04.:58:06.

almost certainly not have access to the European arrest warrant. And on

:58:07.:58:10.

the basis of evidence submitted to the home affairs Select Committee so

:58:11.:58:13.

far, that seems almost certainly to be correct, creating one of the

:58:14.:58:16.

biggest headaches for a Government. She also noted the length of time it

:58:17.:58:20.

had taken for Norway and Iceland to negotiate access to something not

:58:21.:58:24.

even as comprehensive as a European arrest warrant system. 16 years on

:58:25.:58:28.

from the start of negotiations and eventual agreement is not yet even

:58:29.:58:33.

in force. As the then Home Secretary also noted, such deals often contain

:58:34.:58:36.

massive loop-holes that the arrest warrant does not, for example, some

:58:37.:58:40.

states will simply not extradite their own nationals and will insist

:58:41.:58:45.

on any trial taking place in their courts. So, the question for the

:58:46.:58:48.

Government, does the Government accept that it is not going to be to

:58:49.:58:52.

be to negotiate a single deal for one procedure with the European

:58:53.:58:54.

Union as a whole or is it still going to make that attempt? Or is it

:58:55.:58:59.

resigned to negotiating 27 different agreements as Lord Carlile, the

:59:00.:59:04.

former independent reviewer of trim legislation suggested is required. ?

:59:05.:59:08.

In the likely event work on either of those options can't be completed

:59:09.:59:12.

within two years will it be seeking some transitional arrangement

:59:13.:59:14.

because otherwise as I understand it I think the chair of the justice

:59:15.:59:20.

Select Committee will be - we will be reverting back to the Council of

:59:21.:59:32.

Europe convention. What planning on this will of interest to police

:59:33.:59:34.

officers everywhere, what planning will be done so that law enforcement

:59:35.:59:41.

can cope with a more expensive and complicated procedure? Euro poll,

:59:42.:59:45.

which the home affairs Select Committee visited last year, and we

:59:46.:59:49.

are all impressed by the work undertaken there and the leadership

:59:50.:59:52.

of Rob Wayne write and we already heard about some of the benefits

:59:53.:59:56.

that institution brings. On that visit as one of my legs colleagues

:59:57.:00:01.

highlighted we noted the presence of US liaison officers and 14 third

:00:02.:00:05.

countries have negotiated operational partnerships with euro

:00:06.:00:09.

poll. Although some such arrangement could probably be agreed within two

:00:10.:00:13.

years that stat subs not as good as what the UK enjoys now as a full

:00:14.:00:17.

member. Before the referendum MrBrain white warned the UK would

:00:18.:00:20.

become a second tier member of our club if it left the EU and like

:00:21.:00:24.

Iceland and Norway would be denied direct access to euro poll data. Of

:00:25.:00:28.

course we no longer have direct influence on the overall direction

:00:29.:00:32.

of that agency which has proved so beneficial in recent years. These

:00:33.:00:36.

are not trivial matters, that could mean a request for information on

:00:37.:00:40.

missing or wanted persons taking days rather than hours which could

:00:41.:00:41.

be crucial for the people involved. That is why David garment has called

:00:42.:00:51.

for more than operational partnership enjoyed by other states.

:00:52.:00:56.

They could be problems with our relationship with Europe whole and

:00:57.:01:00.

in particular the all-important access to data if the Government

:01:01.:01:02.

moves away from data protection standards. We had already the EEE US

:01:03.:01:13.

safe harbour agreement has been struck down, one now under the

:01:14.:01:20.

Europe whole directive will need to seek agreement from the European

:01:21.:01:25.

directive which in the past has turned down finances for similar

:01:26.:01:33.

reasons. Whilst it is good that there is not going to be a

:01:34.:01:37.

settlement for operational partnership and be a bespoke

:01:38.:01:40.

agreement, we need more detail on what will be envisaged or the

:01:41.:01:44.

Government undertake that data protection standards will not

:01:45.:01:48.

jeopardise our our relationship and what if that involves some sort of

:01:49.:01:51.

influence of the European court of justice. On the European sorry on

:01:52.:02:01.

the showing in information system, UK enjoys partial access but the

:02:02.:02:05.

evidence so far has been that system has been a game changer for police,

:02:06.:02:10.

it facilitates real-time alerts for the police National computer linked

:02:11.:02:16.

into the system. Access from non-EU countries is limited, countries such

:02:17.:02:21.

as Australia must ask institutions like Europol, Norway and Iceland to

:02:22.:02:27.

have to make payments without seeing any policy development and they must

:02:28.:02:31.

implement the European Court of Justice decisions or face losing

:02:32.:02:37.

that access. On these benches would have no hesitation saying those

:02:38.:02:40.

commitments are worth it if we secure similar access but the

:02:41.:02:44.

question is, does the Government believe they are acceptable as well

:02:45.:02:48.

or does the Prime Minister's obsession with the European Court of

:02:49.:02:55.

Justice take precedence. On similar issues, financial contributions and

:02:56.:02:59.

jurisdiction have secured Iceland and Norway access but according to

:03:00.:03:03.

David Armond, the Interpol agreements which we would have tuque

:03:04.:03:08.

fall back on would be a time-consuming bureaucratic

:03:09.:03:13.

arrangement. We could go through the police College, the European network

:03:14.:03:17.

of information Security agency, passenger names records and each

:03:18.:03:23.

similar area where the efforts in securing membership must be very

:03:24.:03:27.

close is free to nice. I welcome the commitment to work with devolved

:03:28.:03:36.

criminal justice organisations, sadly the governments will not be at

:03:37.:03:39.

the table in these negotiations occur. In conclusion, if anything

:03:40.:03:45.

illustrates the idea that the European Union and power states, it

:03:46.:03:49.

is surely in the field of policing and security because if we fight

:03:50.:03:52.

organised crime in our own then we are not so much taking back control

:03:53.:03:57.

but we risk time one arm behind our backs. We all benefit from a more --

:03:58.:04:12.

operating. I hope the Government can assure is today the priorities are

:04:13.:04:25.

in that order. Following on from my colleague, I note there is a degree

:04:26.:04:35.

of consensus, in the vote on the summer on the opposite benches,

:04:36.:04:41.

nonetheless I would say that we have found a certain solace of .11 in the

:04:42.:04:48.

plan to commit to fight crime and terrorism and inherently these are

:04:49.:04:51.

just words at the moment and the Government now must demonstrate with

:04:52.:04:58.

actions have the evident need for international corporation will be

:04:59.:05:01.

realised. I would like to have my voice mentioned by many people

:05:02.:05:05.

better qualified than myself to detail those aspects of cooperation.

:05:06.:05:19.

We certainly have a fair amount of work on our hands to the

:05:20.:05:22.

coordinating and working in Concord and all of those things. I would

:05:23.:05:29.

like to raise a few issues regarding Wales and the western seaboard. As

:05:30.:05:33.

we know the Common travel area allows Ireland and UK citizens the

:05:34.:05:38.

ability to travel without passports and we welcome the announcement that

:05:39.:05:42.

this will remain but I would like to explain from the point of view of

:05:43.:05:47.

Wales and the security of Wales, this warrants consideration. Key

:05:48.:05:51.

Welsh ports such as Holyhead, Fishguard deal with thousands of

:05:52.:05:54.

passengers and huge amounts of freight coming in from Ireland each

:05:55.:06:00.

and every day. Haven is a major port from fuel arriving by sea, Holyhead

:06:01.:06:04.

is second only to Dover in terms of passenger numbers with 1.9 million

:06:05.:06:11.

passengers in 2015. I wonder under present circumstances if the

:06:12.:06:14.

security status of Holyhead as a ports might be revisited. The Police

:06:15.:06:22.

Commissioner has warned where the border to become more tangible that

:06:23.:06:28.

there would likely be a rise of an criminality in Holyhead and even the

:06:29.:06:35.

possibility of terrorist violence focusing on the manifestations of

:06:36.:06:39.

the border, this of course must be avoided at all costs. I would like

:06:40.:06:46.

to make one particular point, David Anderson QC highlighted in his

:06:47.:06:51.

December 2016 report that ports on the Western front could be a soft

:06:52.:06:56.

underbelly when it comes to the silent's security. With over the

:06:57.:07:02.

1680 miles of coast and relatively small lease forces covering vast

:07:03.:07:06.

rural areas, the vast difficulty of policing the coastline is enormous.

:07:07.:07:11.

Ports and police services in Wales are already facing immense pressure

:07:12.:07:15.

as public service cuts have seen their capacity slashed. This is a

:07:16.:07:18.

domestic issue as much as an international issue and there are

:07:19.:07:23.

concerns that posts may be lost at ports if these cuts are to continue

:07:24.:07:29.

and border forces we are aware would struggle to close these gaps. The

:07:30.:07:33.

senior police officer has warned me we will miss people coming in. There

:07:34.:07:37.

are concerns that the unresolved police funding formula and a high

:07:38.:07:41.

priority accorded to urban adversity it will affect rural police forces

:07:42.:07:46.

such as North Wales disproportionally and I would urge

:07:47.:07:50.

the Minister of policing to consider the risks of oversimplifying the

:07:51.:07:53.

number of funding indicators if it is evident that they take into

:07:54.:07:58.

account the variation in policing needs and policing environment

:07:59.:08:03.

across forces. Indeed I would like specifically to request the Minister

:08:04.:08:11.

of policing with the future funding of North Wales Police and that in

:08:12.:08:15.

the light of that which we are discussing today. From stopping the

:08:16.:08:19.

smuggling of goods to outright acts of terrorism, if the Government is

:08:20.:08:24.

serious on the continued security of this country then it must recognise

:08:25.:08:27.

and address the unique issues faced by Wells police services. Brexit

:08:28.:08:33.

must might mean more cut and more uncertainty for the forces that work

:08:34.:08:42.

day in and day out to protect us. As the honourable Member for Hampstead

:08:43.:08:46.

and Kilburn observed, one of the disadvantages of taking part so late

:08:47.:08:49.

in a debate is that many of the things you might want to say have

:08:50.:08:53.

been covered. The other disadvantage is that there are very few people

:08:54.:08:56.

left to hear what he wanted to say but I wanted to take part in this

:08:57.:09:02.

debate principally to make the case for differential arrangements to

:09:03.:09:04.

take place in Scotland in a post-Brexit world. I do believe the

:09:05.:09:10.

areas we are discussing here very much exemplify why that ought to be

:09:11.:09:15.

the case. Policing and law enforcement in Scotland has long

:09:16.:09:21.

been quite separate, both the structure and the administration,

:09:22.:09:24.

the budget and of course the legislative framework and the

:09:25.:09:27.

mandate from the criminal justice system which the police have

:09:28.:09:36.

predates devolution. Devolution that the Scottish Government transferred

:09:37.:09:39.

to a parliament elected in Scotland which didn't set up a separate

:09:40.:09:43.

arrangement for policing and it didn't establish a separate criminal

:09:44.:09:47.

justice system. No one has suggested that these matters should change

:09:48.:09:52.

post-Brexit. At the same time I do hope the Minister in his reply will

:09:53.:09:56.

have some acknowledgement of this and discuss how these arrangements

:09:57.:10:01.

will be different and the process that needs to take place between now

:10:02.:10:05.

and then in order to make that a reality. I want to talk about the

:10:06.:10:09.

general political context within which this debate takes place. Some

:10:10.:10:16.

of the criteria which informs public opinion and dialogue in Scotland,

:10:17.:10:21.

members indeed in this house including members not represented in

:10:22.:10:25.

Scotland will know only too well that the politics of Scotland is

:10:26.:10:30.

very largely influenced by the legacy of the 2014 independence

:10:31.:10:34.

referendum. I don't want to go into that in any detail but I think there

:10:35.:10:38.

are two aspects which took place which ended in September 2014 which

:10:39.:10:42.

are very relevant to the debate which we are having today. The first

:10:43.:10:47.

is about the relationship that people in Scotland would have with

:10:48.:10:50.

the European Union. We were told in the that not only is the prospectus

:10:51.:10:59.

for an independent Scotland a bad one because the position within the

:11:00.:11:02.

EU could not be guaranteed that actually on the contrary that people

:11:03.:11:06.

in Scotland wish to retain the European passports and the best way

:11:07.:11:11.

they could do that was the vote to stay within the United Kingdom

:11:12.:11:16.

because only that would guarantee that they would maintain their

:11:17.:11:18.

relationship which they have with other European nations. The second

:11:19.:11:25.

thing said was about the concept of respect. We were told that if people

:11:26.:11:31.

voted to renew the union between Scotland and England and Wales and

:11:32.:11:35.

Northern Ireland then this would not be a matter of opinions and views

:11:36.:11:40.

being subsumed into a much larger neighbour but a partnership where

:11:41.:11:45.

the dues of the people of Scotland would be respected and they would be

:11:46.:11:51.

treated equally albeit in an asymmetrical relationship of power.

:11:52.:11:55.

What has just happened with Brexit severely tests both of those

:11:56.:12:02.

propositions. Clearly and we have yet to see what type of United

:12:03.:12:07.

Kingdom emerges in a post-Brexit world, but many fear for a dystopian

:12:08.:12:11.

future in which this country turns its back on the rest of the world

:12:12.:12:17.

and becomes isolated and riven by sectarian and ethnic division. That

:12:18.:12:21.

might not come to pass and I very much hope that it doesn't. What is

:12:22.:12:25.

absolutely clear is that the United Kingdom of the future is going to be

:12:26.:12:29.

manifestly different from the United Kingdom that was on the ballot paper

:12:30.:12:35.

on the 18th of September 20 14. The other thing is about respect. That

:12:36.:12:41.

is a notion sorely tested. Why because the public opinion as

:12:42.:12:47.

expressed on the 23rd of June 20 16th on the matter of relationships

:12:48.:12:52.

to other European nations is manifestly and palpably different in

:12:53.:12:57.

Scotland than it is in England and Wales. That presents all of us with

:12:58.:13:02.

something of a dilemma and I do hope given the muted tones and more

:13:03.:13:07.

thoughtful nature of the atmosphere this afternoon that some of the

:13:08.:13:11.

exchanges we have had on Brexit debate in recent weeks that we might

:13:12.:13:17.

be able to actually confront these paradoxes and decide that together

:13:18.:13:20.

we should do something positive about this. That is what the

:13:21.:13:27.

Government has attempted to do. If you haven't read the Scottish paper

:13:28.:13:30.

I would commend it to members of the House. It is a document which sets

:13:31.:13:34.

out a prospectus for a deferential relationship that Scotland would

:13:35.:13:38.

have in a post-Brexit world. It suggests that Scotland should be

:13:39.:13:42.

given the authority and the competence to actually be an

:13:43.:13:47.

associate Member of the European economic area because attitudes in

:13:48.:13:49.

Scotland are different than they are in England and Wales. In particular

:13:50.:13:54.

with regard to the freedom of movement of people across borders. I

:13:55.:13:59.

want to make it absolutely clear and I would encourage people to

:14:00.:14:03.

recognise this that the document that the Scottish Government has put

:14:04.:14:07.

forward and with which it now campaigning for is not to say

:14:08.:14:10.

Scotland should be an independent country and it is not to say that

:14:11.:14:14.

any part of the United Kingdom should remain part of the European

:14:15.:14:17.

Union and in that sense, its respects both the 2014 decision and

:14:18.:14:23.

the 2016 decision and is trying to square the circle of opinion being

:14:24.:14:26.

manifested differently north of the border than it is in the south.

:14:27.:14:31.

Therefore it is a document I would commend and I think we should

:14:32.:14:38.

explore. Will my honourable friend confirm that polling released this

:14:39.:14:41.

afternoon shows that there is widespread support in Scotland for

:14:42.:14:46.

the Scottish Government's plan to stay in the single market and indeed

:14:47.:14:51.

in the early days after the EU Referendum, by the Secretary of

:14:52.:14:55.

State for Scotland and the leader of the Conservative Unionist party Ruth

:14:56.:14:57.

Davidson, were demanding Scotland should remain part of the single

:14:58.:14:58.

market. Indeed so. Members will think we

:14:59.:15:04.

have prepared this interchange. It is worth quoting the Secretary of

:15:05.:15:09.

State for Scotland, when he said in June of this year, just after the

:15:10.:15:13.

vote on Brexit, he said my role is to ensure Scotland gets the best

:15:14.:15:17.

possible deal and that deal involves clearly being part of the single

:15:18.:15:22.

market. Not my words, but the words of the Conservative Secretary of

:15:23.:15:24.

State for Scotland. He may of course have changed his mind in the few

:15:25.:15:31.

months in between. The Scottish Government dom suggests that there

:15:32.:15:35.

are three levels of legislation that should be looked at in terms of how

:15:36.:15:40.

we manage Brexit within these Islands and I hope no one would

:15:41.:15:45.

suggest that such - that a decision, a constitutional decision of such

:15:46.:15:49.

magnitude as to withdraw this country from its main international

:15:50.:15:52.

association can be done without having any effect on the

:15:53.:15:56.

constitutional arrangements within the country, it is clearly obvious

:15:57.:15:58.

that's going to be the case. And there will have to be either as part

:15:59.:16:02.

of the great repeal bill or as a separate bill, there will have to be

:16:03.:16:06.

a new Scottish bill that gives new powers to the Scottish parliament.

:16:07.:16:10.

The Scottish Government believes they fall into three areas. One is

:16:11.:16:14.

that there are some areas which are going to be straight repatriated

:16:15.:16:18.

from Brussels in which the Scottish Government already has competence

:16:19.:16:21.

and they should go straight to Holyrood by making sure that they do

:16:22.:16:25.

not stop on the way at Westminster. Secondly, there are areas of

:16:26.:16:29.

additional legislative competence that should be given to the Scottish

:16:30.:16:33.

Government as they are devolved from Brussels, particularly in the field

:16:34.:16:36.

of employment legislation, and indeed to do with some immigration

:16:37.:16:42.

matters, as well. Thirdly, if we can persuade the United Kingdom

:16:43.:16:46.

Government to consent and support the idea of arrangements being

:16:47.:16:51.

different in Scotland, but still consistent with leaving the European

:16:52.:16:55.

Union, then there will need to be a legislative competence bill that

:16:56.:16:57.

allows the Scottish Government to form those relationships in the

:16:58.:17:00.

future. Now I think the debate that we are having today and the matters

:17:01.:17:03.

we are discussing very much fall into category one. They are areas in

:17:04.:17:06.

which the Scottish Government already will, with the exception

:17:07.:17:09.

perhaps of security, but certainly in terms of criminal justice, and in

:17:10.:17:13.

terms of law enforcement, these are areas in which the Scottish

:17:14.:17:16.

Government already has competence and where the repatriation of powers

:17:17.:17:22.

from Brussels should see that competence expanded. I therefore

:17:23.:17:28.

want to finish by asking the Secretary of State - by asking the

:17:29.:17:33.

ministers in their response to explain how and in what way the

:17:34.:17:38.

dialogue is taking place between ministers of the Crown here at

:17:39.:17:42.

Westminster and their Scottish counterparts about how these

:17:43.:17:45.

arrangements should be made because I think there is matters of great

:17:46.:17:49.

detail and expertise required here and it would seem to me a rather

:17:50.:17:53.

ridiculous situation to simply say this is all a matter for the

:17:54.:17:57.

department for exiting the EU. I think we need to explore in some

:17:58.:18:03.

detail criminal justice, law enforcement and the relationship for

:18:04.:18:07.

those aspects of the Scotland in terms of the security system, how

:18:08.:18:11.

they will work post-Brexit and that shouldn't be just left to the Brexit

:18:12.:18:14.

department, that should properly be a matter for the home department and

:18:15.:18:18.

I hope that when they respond ministers will set out both an

:18:19.:18:21.

intention to have that dialogue and suggest how it might take place.

:18:22.:18:31.

Thank you. The Prime Minister in her speech yesterday made clear that one

:18:32.:18:35.

of her objectives in exiting the European Union would be to release

:18:36.:18:41.

the United Kingdom from the jurisdiction of the European Court

:18:42.:18:43.

of justice. Questions to the Secretary of State for exiting the

:18:44.:18:47.

European Union yesterday, the issue arose of how cross-border trade

:18:48.:18:50.

disputes were to be settled if the UK refuses to be bound by the

:18:51.:18:55.

rulings of the ECJ. The Secretary of State for exiting the European Union

:18:56.:18:59.

did not give a comprehensive answer to how these disputes will be

:19:00.:19:02.

arbitrated once the UK is outside the EU which raises the possibility

:19:03.:19:06.

that he does not yet know. It gives me enormous concern that

:19:07.:19:10.

the department for exiting the European Union does not yet have a

:19:11.:19:15.

clear idea of how the role of the ECJ will replaced once we leave the

:19:16.:19:21.

EU, whilst it might be possible to cobble together a compromise for

:19:22.:19:23.

trade deals as the Secretary of State airily declared yesterday, the

:19:24.:19:28.

ECJ has a greater role to play in our national life than just as the

:19:29.:19:31.

arbiter of trade deals. As members of the EU we benefit from a range of

:19:32.:19:36.

different schemes for sharing data and resources across borders. These

:19:37.:19:43.

include the Schengen information system, Europol, the European

:19:44.:19:45.

criminal records information system amongst many others. We collaborate

:19:46.:19:49.

with our European neighbours on matters relating to family law,

:19:50.:19:53.

asylum and the freezing of assets. The Prime Minister has of herself

:19:54.:19:56.

argued passionately in favour of these measures as Home Secretary and

:19:57.:19:59.

when leading the Government's case for opting into 35 justice and home

:20:00.:20:04.

affairs measures in 2014, in this very House the Prime Minister argued

:20:05.:20:08.

that without such measures we would risk harmful individuals walking

:20:09.:20:11.

free and escaping justice and would seriously harm the capability of our

:20:12.:20:14.

law enforcement agencies to keep the public safe.

:20:15.:20:18.

Our membership of the EU gives us an automatic right to the co-operation

:20:19.:20:22.

of our EU neighbours in all of these measures. Once we exit the European

:20:23.:20:26.

Union we will lose this automatic right. As we have seen with the

:20:27.:20:30.

single market, the Prime Minister and her Cabinet are failing to

:20:31.:20:34.

support measures they have spent their whole careers championing as

:20:35.:20:37.

fundamental to our security and public life. It is entirely possible

:20:38.:20:41.

that we can negotiate a new agreement to maintain access to data

:20:42.:20:45.

and resources. The UK has been instrumental in setting up many of

:20:46.:20:47.

the cross-border police and crime systems that the EU has adopted and

:20:48.:20:51.

our contribution will be missed when we leave. It is to be hoped that

:20:52.:20:54.

this will provide a powerful negotiating tool when we come to

:20:55.:21:00.

strike a new deal. However, so much of this cross-border co-operation

:21:01.:21:04.

and data-sharing depends upon all parties accepting the jurisdiction

:21:05.:21:07.

of the ECJ. There are several reasons for this. First, the EU can

:21:08.:21:11.

only act in compliance with the charter of fundamental rights. The

:21:12.:21:15.

ECJ is the ultimate arbiter of this. It is therefore impossible for the

:21:16.:21:19.

EU to sign an agreement with the UK that conflicts with either the

:21:20.:21:23.

charter or with ECJ case law. Second, any agreement needs to be

:21:24.:21:27.

policed. If the UK acted in way that is breached the terms of this

:21:28.:21:30.

agreement it would be open to an EU citizen to take a case to the ECJ

:21:31.:21:35.

and have the EU's decision concluding the agreement annulled.

:21:36.:21:40.

Third, the developing jur is prudence of the ECJ is binding on EU

:21:41.:21:44.

member states. If the UK failed to keep pace with legal developments on

:21:45.:21:48.

the continent or diverged from EU law in any significant matter, then

:21:49.:21:52.

a gap would open up. The international deals that the EU

:21:53.:21:56.

signs with third countries tend to include a mechanism for discussing

:21:57.:21:59.

legal divergence, including the ability to allow the agreement to be

:22:00.:22:04.

terminated if the differences cannot be reconciled. The UK would have to

:22:05.:22:08.

stick closely to the rulings of the ECJ in order to avoid the agreement

:22:09.:22:13.

being annulled one of the most valuable contributions that

:22:14.:22:15.

membership of the European Union makes to the UK's continuing

:22:16.:22:19.

security is the sharing of data between national police and

:22:20.:22:22.

intelligence agencies. But the sharing of personal data must be

:22:23.:22:26.

subject to the stricter safeguards to prevent misuse. Within the EU,

:22:27.:22:30.

all countries have signed up to data protection legislation that governs

:22:31.:22:34.

the sharing of this data. Once the UK has left the jurisdiction of the

:22:35.:22:40.

ECJ which oversees the legislation that governs this data-sharing any

:22:41.:22:42.

bespoke agreement will have to be continued to be governed by similar

:22:43.:22:47.

levels of protection. Should UK law diverge from EU law on data

:22:48.:22:51.

protection, then any agreement will become void if the ECJ deems that UK

:22:52.:22:57.

law is insufficient to protect European citizens data. This would

:22:58.:23:00.

result in the flow of data from the EU to the UK being immediately

:23:01.:23:04.

stopped, putting at risk the ability of British police and security

:23:05.:23:08.

forces to investigate and prosecute potential threats. Given the Prime

:23:09.:23:12.

Minister's determination as expressed yesterday to cut all ties

:23:13.:23:15.

with the European Court of justice, I urge the Secretary of State for

:23:16.:23:19.

exiting the European Union to form with the utmost urgency a proposal

:23:20.:23:23.

for the future of information-sharing and co-operation

:23:24.:23:26.

on security matters between the UK and the European Union. He needs to

:23:27.:23:30.

set out detailed plans for how this collaboration can be continued. If

:23:31.:23:34.

the UK will not accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ. He also

:23:35.:23:38.

needs to state how the risks of any bespoke arrangement will be

:23:39.:23:41.

addressed, especially the risk that UK and ECJ case law diverge in the

:23:42.:23:46.

future making negotiated arrangements untenable. I hope that

:23:47.:23:49.

members on all sides of this debate will acknowledge that the full

:23:50.:23:53.

implications of rejecting the ECJ were not put to voters in the

:23:54.:23:56.

referendum campaign and that had they been so the Prime Minister

:23:57.:23:59.

might not now be so determined to remove the UK from its jurisdiction.

:24:00.:24:03.

I hope that the very real risks to our future security are being

:24:04.:24:06.

properly considered by the Secretary of State and look forward to hearing

:24:07.:24:11.

greater detail of his proposals in due course.

:24:12.:24:16.

It is a great pleasure to follow the honourable lady, the member for

:24:17.:24:22.

Richmond Park. The constituency is very close to my heart because I

:24:23.:24:26.

fought my first parliamentary election as the Labour candidate in

:24:27.:24:32.

Richmond Park. I lost by I think 26,000 votes. However, it was enough

:24:33.:24:41.

to ensure the election of a Conservative member, Jeremy Handily

:24:42.:24:43.

and I know the Liberal Democrats were very angry with me because Alan

:24:44.:24:48.

Watson, now in other place, lost by a very small margin. So at least I

:24:49.:24:53.

have the comfort of knowing that she has been elected as the member for

:24:54.:24:56.

Richmond Park and I wish her well in her career which I am sure will be

:24:57.:25:00.

long and distinguished. I have to say I was very fond of the former

:25:01.:25:05.

member for Richmond Park, who was always extremely courtups and who

:25:06.:25:09.

had great respect for the House and I know great respect and affection

:25:10.:25:13.

for you. I am sorry I missed the speech of my honourable friend the

:25:14.:25:19.

member for Stoke-on-Trent Central. Because I was very, very sad indeed

:25:20.:25:24.

to hear that he was to leave this House to take up an appointment

:25:25.:25:34.

outside. I feel I was there at the birth, the political birth of my

:25:35.:25:43.

honourable friend because I sat on the panel where he was interviewed

:25:44.:25:47.

for the Stoke-on-Trent Central seat. I have to say that was, I think we

:25:48.:25:53.

had interviewed 25 people and the honourable gentleman came in. He was

:25:54.:25:57.

so stunning in his interview and we were so impressed that we

:25:58.:26:03.

immediately put him on the shortlips and he was selected by a large

:26:04.:26:08.

majority by the members in Stoke-on-Trent. I remember a comment

:26:09.:26:13.

made by one of the panelists who said that one day the honourable

:26:14.:26:17.

member would become the leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister

:26:18.:26:23.

of this country. Instead, he has gone for a better paid job, probably

:26:24.:26:29.

with much better influence and less stress as the director of the V

:26:30.:26:34.

and his amazing career outside this House has been matched by his

:26:35.:26:39.

complete devotion and dedication to the people of Stoke-on-Trent

:26:40.:26:44.

Central. I know because I went up over the last five years, I have

:26:45.:26:49.

been up twice in fact, and I know the great affection that local

:26:50.:26:57.

people have for him. He's debt indicated, hard-working, he will be

:26:58.:27:01.

-- he is dedicated, hard-working, but we wish him well. He is going to

:27:02.:27:05.

keep those museums free and we are all going to visit him at his first

:27:06.:27:11.

exhibition. We wish him well. What was good about this debate, was the

:27:12.:27:19.

fact that the passion of both front benches, an extraordinarily good

:27:20.:27:24.

speech from the member for West Ham, and another good speech from the

:27:25.:27:29.

Policing Minister, both supported the immensely important role that we

:27:30.:27:33.

play in terms of justice and security in the EU. In fact, I don't

:27:34.:27:39.

think that there was any difference between what the front benches said

:27:40.:27:43.

on this particular subject. They all realised how important it was that

:27:44.:27:48.

we should remain at the forefront of this agenda in the European Union,

:27:49.:27:52.

even though we are leaving the European Union. The Minister spoke

:27:53.:27:58.

with all the passion of someone who supported the Remain campaign during

:27:59.:28:03.

the referendum. He reminded us about the importance of these

:28:04.:28:08.

institutions, how vital it is that we remain part of them in some way

:28:09.:28:14.

or another. What is significant, of course, is that we lead the rest of

:28:15.:28:19.

Europe as far as justice and security is concerned. We need the

:28:20.:28:26.

European Union, but they also need us in a whole variety of

:28:27.:28:29.

organisations and institutions and in a whole variety of ways. I know a

:28:30.:28:35.

number of honourable members and right honourable members on the

:28:36.:28:39.

front bench mentioned Europol. I am a great fan of Europol as is the

:28:40.:28:45.

Shadow Minister and I want to pay tribute to the excellent work that

:28:46.:28:49.

Rob Wayne write does, how rare it has been in all the years that we

:28:50.:28:54.

have been members of the EU that we have a Brit at the head of an EU

:28:55.:29:01.

agency or organisation and what an incredibly good job Rob Wainwright

:29:02.:29:08.

hasz done as the drek for of Europol and I hope in discussions and

:29:09.:29:12.

negotiations we have, I know the Prime Minister is keen we don't just

:29:13.:29:16.

have bits of the EU, but this is a bit that we desperately need. We

:29:17.:29:21.

desperately need to be part of this organisation that has a proven

:29:22.:29:26.

record in dealing with organised and serious crime. As far as the

:29:27.:29:31.

migration crisis is concerned, this terrible crisis that's gripped the

:29:32.:29:36.

EU over the last few years, it is the involvement and the support of

:29:37.:29:41.

Europol from the Hague that has been so vital to the hot spots that have

:29:42.:29:45.

been created. I give way. I thank my honourable way for giving way. Many

:29:46.:29:51.

years ago when I was a member of the home affairs Select Committee we had

:29:52.:29:55.

a dem stranges, we actually went to Holland and had a demonstration of

:29:56.:30:05.

Europol. Through that organisation it helps the British police forces

:30:06.:30:09.

to do the very same thing through getting information from Interpol

:30:10.:30:12.

and its connections. Indeed. My honourable friend is right. He knew

:30:13.:30:16.

about it then and I remind him now, I know the Minister is busy tweeting

:30:17.:30:21.

parts of my speech on his Twitter account! But if I can occupy his

:30:22.:30:26.

time for just one moment, and tell him that it is possible for us to

:30:27.:30:32.

get an arrangement with Europol that will not mean we are sitting on the

:30:33.:30:37.

management board of Europol but we are very near that position and we

:30:38.:30:41.

know from watching what the United States has done that it is possible

:30:42.:30:48.

to be there. It's not as good as running the organisation, but it is

:30:49.:30:51.

near the centre of power. That's where we need to be as far as it is

:30:52.:30:53.

concerned. I'm sure the policing minister has

:30:54.:31:10.

had officers saying this to him how important it is that we stay a part

:31:11.:31:14.

of that so at the very least we should be up to negotiate something

:31:15.:31:17.

equivalent to what the United States has. Where we have a room, we have a

:31:18.:31:25.

desk and we have access to the kind of information that we so

:31:26.:31:29.

desperately need. As far as the criminal records situation is

:31:30.:31:33.

concerned, and the minister responded to on Icarus but we don't

:31:34.:31:42.

have details. I spoke to Ian redhead yesterday who of course runs the

:31:43.:31:53.

system from Hampshire and he told me about the absolutely vital

:31:54.:31:58.

importance of our country having access to this system. That means we

:31:59.:32:02.

know exactly where people are and if they have committed an offence we

:32:03.:32:06.

are able to go back to their countries and within minutes, they

:32:07.:32:11.

will give us results of whether or not a person has a criminal

:32:12.:32:17.

conviction. We have had 200,000 foreign national offenders arrested

:32:18.:32:24.

in our country last year, 100,000 of these are EU nationals which is why

:32:25.:32:28.

it is extremely important that we have access to this database. This

:32:29.:32:36.

is not extended to any non-EU members. They are the rules.

:32:37.:32:45.

Switzerland and Norway have access to this database simply because they

:32:46.:32:47.

are members of the Schengen agreement. We have no prospect of

:32:48.:32:59.

joining this so we have to be careful in negotiations that we are

:33:00.:33:01.

involved and to ensure that we have this information and the ability to

:33:02.:33:09.

get the data from the rest of the European Union. We heard from the

:33:10.:33:14.

Member of Kingston and Surbiton who is the House resident expert, after

:33:15.:33:27.

some delay the Government has opted in but have not seen any of the data

:33:28.:33:32.

until later this year to the DNA fingerprinting expertise that we

:33:33.:33:38.

need will not come to us until later this year. I hope the Minister will

:33:39.:33:53.

ensure that we can and if it -- and can benefit up until we leave and

:33:54.:33:58.

when we leave we have an agreement which allows us access to the

:33:59.:34:09.

important information. I don't think anyone so far has mentioned the

:34:10.:34:12.

issue foreign national offenders. The latest figures show us over 4000

:34:13.:34:18.

EU national offenders are in the United Kingdom costing 169 million

:34:19.:34:27.

pounds a year. Top of the list is Poland, nitrogen and 83 prisoners,

:34:28.:34:33.

700 from Ireland and 635 from Romania. The committee will remember

:34:34.:34:42.

us questioning the Minister of prisons on this issue and we could

:34:43.:34:48.

not understand why since we have a prisoner transfer arrangement with

:34:49.:34:50.

Poland that both Poland and the United Kingdom remain in the

:34:51.:34:56.

European Union and why we are not able to transfer Polish prisoners

:34:57.:35:00.

back to Poland. Of course the answer came back to us from a senior

:35:01.:35:06.

official that they probably could have been transferred. I think it is

:35:07.:35:13.

important that we look at this area, especially if we can try to do the

:35:14.:35:21.

prisoner swap before we leave the European Union, otherwise once we

:35:22.:35:24.

come out of the union, Poland will be in exactly the same situation as

:35:25.:35:29.

any other country as far as prisoner transfer arrangements are concerned.

:35:30.:35:38.

That is why we should ensure this happens as quickly as possible. A

:35:39.:35:43.

number of members mentioned the issue of the European arrest warrant

:35:44.:35:48.

and my honourable friend for West Ham made an impressive speech on

:35:49.:35:55.

this particular point. I have concerns about the European arrest

:35:56.:35:59.

warrant, simply because I think the warrants are being issued by other

:36:00.:36:05.

countries on the basis of their law and therefore their constitutions

:36:06.:36:12.

and in some cases the warrants are being issued for minor offences and

:36:13.:36:17.

our system is being clogged up with a number of arrest warrants are been

:36:18.:36:21.

issued against nationals of other EU countries. Would like to think we

:36:22.:36:27.

are much more careful for we issue these arrest warrants. It should be

:36:28.:36:32.

for serious and important issues and offences, not for someone stealing a

:36:33.:36:36.

bicycle in another part of the EU which has been the case. As he

:36:37.:36:43.

negotiates with the rest of the EU, here is an opportunity to be able to

:36:44.:36:50.

look at this issue in new whilst accepting the importance of the

:36:51.:36:53.

principle of the European arrest warrant. Also looking at the defects

:36:54.:36:59.

that are inherent in the European arrest warrant because it is a great

:37:00.:37:06.

scheme but has its flaws and this is an opportunity to ensure that the

:37:07.:37:13.

floors are dealt with. My final point relates to EU nationals who

:37:14.:37:17.

are living in this country. As I said to the chairman of the Home

:37:18.:37:22.

Affairs Select Commitee, issued by the answer, I don't know the answer

:37:23.:37:26.

and I don't know if we are having another debate on leaving the E and

:37:27.:37:30.

home affairs issues. Other than the ones we are having today. I would've

:37:31.:37:36.

thought it is essential that we clarify the position of EU nationals

:37:37.:37:42.

living in this country. The Prime Minister gave a guarantee in her

:37:43.:37:47.

speech yesterday that they would be allowed to remain here in tandem

:37:48.:37:50.

with British citizens being allowed to remain in the EU. That is short

:37:51.:37:57.

of an absolute commitment which I think everyone in this house,

:37:58.:38:01.

members on all sides have said this is what the Government should do,

:38:02.:38:05.

give a commitment that EU citizen should stay because now we have even

:38:06.:38:10.

more uncertainty. What is the cut-off date for the EU citizens who

:38:11.:38:15.

are residents in this country? Is the 23rd of June, everybody here on

:38:16.:38:22.

the 23rd of June will be allowed to remain as residents, is it the date

:38:23.:38:26.

which triggered Brexit or is it the date we leave the European Union? I

:38:27.:38:33.

realised the difficulty, they don't want to set a date in future because

:38:34.:38:37.

they will be fearful lots of people will suddenly arrived in order to

:38:38.:38:41.

claim residents that there is going to be huge problem in processing

:38:42.:38:49.

these 3.5 EU residents. He don't require a passport to enter some

:38:50.:38:55.

countries, Italians come on an Italian identity card, that isn't

:38:56.:39:00.

stamped, you cannot stump an identity card and because you are

:39:01.:39:05.

allowed in, no matter what the Government say, if you present your

:39:06.:39:14.

EU passport or your identity card, they would he knows when you have

:39:15.:39:18.

arrived so how are you going to process 3.5 million people in the

:39:19.:39:26.

space of two years? That is why the best course of action is to make

:39:27.:39:30.

that commitment Bell, to say we will allow EU citizens to remain here and

:39:31.:39:36.

to set the date so that there is no uncertainty all rush in the future.

:39:37.:39:42.

This is something that we can get clarified at a very early stage

:39:43.:39:45.

rather than waiting until the end of the process. There are still EU

:39:46.:39:50.

nationals seeking employment in this country who have been told by

:39:51.:39:54.

employers that they will not be able to stay, they may not be given jobs,

:39:55.:40:02.

who may not appeal to rent accommodation regarding landlords

:40:03.:40:04.

and tenants because you have too no show your passport if you're going

:40:05.:40:07.

to rent property in the United Kingdom. It is essential we have

:40:08.:40:13.

this clarified. Whatever the detail, it's good to see the former

:40:14.:40:16.

Immigration Minister here as I talk about these matters. Whatever the

:40:17.:40:23.

detail, these are going to be very complicated negotiations. They are

:40:24.:40:30.

not going to be easy. As far as the issue of enforcement and criminal

:40:31.:40:33.

justice is concerned, we need regular reports back to this house

:40:34.:40:40.

on how this is going because it affects the safety and security of

:40:41.:40:46.

our citizens. And the primary task of any government is to protect its

:40:47.:40:51.

citizens and that is why it's important that we get as much

:40:52.:41:01.

information as possible. Thank you Mr Speaker. This has been an

:41:02.:41:05.

important debate if a somewhat select affair. There have been many

:41:06.:41:08.

excellent contributions from colleagues. The safety and security

:41:09.:41:13.

of citizens is the first responsibility of any government.

:41:14.:41:15.

Given the needs of the UK and EU Member states to collaborate and to

:41:16.:41:20.

coordinate intelligence and share information, this debate matters. It

:41:21.:41:26.

is a good signal of the Government intentions to maintain close

:41:27.:41:30.

relationships on security, law enforcement and criminal justice.

:41:31.:41:38.

But there are other important issues to debate urgently. Freedom of

:41:39.:41:43.

movement, principles for negotiating new trade deals, change to single

:41:44.:41:46.

market membership, associate membership of the customs union,

:41:47.:41:52.

while come the general debates we have had so far, I cannot help but

:41:53.:41:57.

wonder if the Government is avoiding to debate some of the most important

:41:58.:42:07.

and crucial issues. The minister has said he wants a future relationship

:42:08.:42:11.

on Security and law enforcement and we welcome this. Maintaining a close

:42:12.:42:16.

relationship and security is vital, our security must not be compromised

:42:17.:42:22.

by the departure from the EU. As the Member for Leicester East said, it

:42:23.:42:25.

is good to hear both frontbenchers agree on this important point. It is

:42:26.:42:30.

in our national interest to continue the closest collaboration with these

:42:31.:42:34.

issues, we must maintain an ability to participate in the European

:42:35.:42:39.

arrest warrant, Europol membership and information sharing, especially

:42:40.:42:44.

via the Schengen information system. We need these to stay so. Justice

:42:45.:42:49.

and security were barely mentioned drink the referendum campaign and

:42:50.:42:52.

the Government has no mandate to water down such measures. The

:42:53.:42:58.

European arrest warrant is strong and the Prime Minister in particular

:42:59.:43:03.

has favoured the European arrest warrant participation previously and

:43:04.:43:07.

the current arrangements must be maintained and the Minister must

:43:08.:43:12.

outline not just his commitment to the arrest warrant but signal how he

:43:13.:43:18.

ensures the arrest warrant is maintained to the UK benefit. The

:43:19.:43:24.

similarity Europol benefit is vital. Anything less has been described as

:43:25.:43:28.

damage limitation. Will we still have access to the same databases

:43:29.:43:32.

and sources of information afterward have left? Howell ministers ensure

:43:33.:43:37.

that privacy laws to not encumber our access? The Government needs to

:43:38.:43:44.

ensure and explain how it will ensure that Britain's security and

:43:45.:43:48.

safety is in no way diminished. And this is not trade, vital as it is,

:43:49.:43:55.

this is the most fundamental of duties of any government. Our

:43:56.:43:59.

security and safety are not to be weakened. Our partners need to know

:44:00.:44:03.

that we intend to work together more closely than ever as threats emerge

:44:04.:44:08.

we must work with allies as good partners, more, not less closely.

:44:09.:44:13.

The right Honourable Member for Mid Sussex spoke with great care and

:44:14.:44:19.

authority of the need to sustain our involvement with international

:44:20.:44:23.

bodies, like many who campaign to remain in the EU, he accepts that we

:44:24.:44:27.

are leaving. But he like the rest of us sees the danger of departing

:44:28.:44:31.

without resolving the very serious and vital issues of security. The UK

:44:32.:44:38.

recently opted in the adopted regulation of Europol and the

:44:39.:44:42.

Government passed the test of its resolve. Good intentions are not

:44:43.:44:46.

sufficient. The Member for Edinburgh South West spoke of the need for

:44:47.:44:51.

ministers to explain how the UK can remain part of existing structures

:44:52.:44:56.

on equivalent terms. The detail counts. This house will hold the

:44:57.:45:00.

Government to its stated objective of maintaining our current

:45:01.:45:05.

beneficial relationship. The chairman of the justice select

:45:06.:45:08.

committee urged the Government not to rule out making financial

:45:09.:45:11.

contributions that may be required so that we can continue to benefit

:45:12.:45:14.

in particular from intelligence databases. This is a most reasonable

:45:15.:45:21.

request. Will ministers confirmed that they will not dogmatically

:45:22.:45:25.

declined to make such contributions for domestic and political reasons,

:45:26.:45:29.

thereby putting our information sharing processes at risk. We have

:45:30.:45:34.

all agreed this evening how important security and cooperation

:45:35.:45:38.

is to the safety of our citizens. This is the closest to consensus we

:45:39.:45:41.

are ever likely to succeed in this chamber.

:45:42.:45:44.

That is as the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee this

:45:45.:45:51.

agreement in this house doesn't mean achieving the right outcome will be

:45:52.:45:56.

easy. It won't. Hence her call for an explanation of how the Government

:45:57.:46:02.

intends to proceed. The member the Pontefract and Castleford gave the

:46:03.:46:08.

example of Europe all's success in achieving arrest since child sexual

:46:09.:46:17.

exploitation cases. We want to identify and detain individuals

:46:18.:46:19.

responsible for such crimes that capacity is in no way diminished.

:46:20.:46:23.

This ought to be possible, but it does require consistent and

:46:24.:46:26.

unwavering resolve from the Government. These matters must not

:46:27.:46:30.

be up for negotiation. There can be no trading these issues away. The

:46:31.:46:37.

Prime Minister spoke of not wanting to retain bits of membership, but as

:46:38.:46:46.

the chairman of the exiting the EU select committee said, collaborating

:46:47.:46:48.

on justice and security is not a bit, it is a vital tool in securing

:46:49.:46:54.

safety in this country. With this in mind, will the Minister commit to

:46:55.:46:59.

ensuring a transitional agreement, which protects us from any

:47:00.:47:04.

interruption in access to data and intelligence? The member for

:47:05.:47:07.

Hampstead and Kilburn made an excellent speech detailing their

:47:08.:47:11.

specific concerns of her London constituents. She wants reassurance,

:47:12.:47:16.

as do we all, that cooperation, security and law enforcement

:47:17.:47:25.

measures outlast our EU membership. Lastly, Mr Speaker, I want to

:47:26.:47:30.

finally turn to the contribution of the member for Stoke Central. It was

:47:31.:47:34.

a privilege to sit by him as he made his maiden speech almost seven years

:47:35.:47:39.

ago, and I'm pleased, although I didn't know he was going to be

:47:40.:47:43.

speaking for the final time in this house today, to be able to take this

:47:44.:47:47.

chance to wish him well in his new and exciting role. He has always

:47:48.:47:53.

conducted himself with the utmost courtesy, speaking on issues as

:47:54.:47:57.

important as social mobility and those niche as the management of

:47:58.:48:01.

British waterways. I will miss him and I know others will, too. I know

:48:02.:48:06.

he's found opposition frustrating, banging your head against a brick

:48:07.:48:11.

wall isn't for everyone! I feel confident that he will use his new

:48:12.:48:17.

role to make a difference on inclusion, in broadening opportunity

:48:18.:48:18.

and I wish him every success. May I say what an excellent debate

:48:19.:48:35.

this has been. And the debate a very high calibre, attended by no fewer

:48:36.:48:38.

than five chairs of select committees. The issue of security,

:48:39.:48:44.

law enforcement and criminal justice is, of course, of significant

:48:45.:48:50.

importance in the context of Britain's withdrawal from the

:48:51.:48:53.

European Union. I'm sure honourable members can acknowledge the value of

:48:54.:48:59.

this debate, the fourth in the series promised by the Secretary of

:49:00.:49:03.

State, and which have proven to be of real assistance to the

:49:04.:49:06.

Government, not least this particular debate, as might

:49:07.:49:10.

honourable friend pointed out, is about an issue that impinges

:49:11.:49:15.

directly on all of our citizens. As the Prime Minister made clear

:49:16.:49:19.

yesterday, a global Britain will wish to continue to cooperate with

:49:20.:49:24.

its European allies on tackling crime and terrorism, and this is in

:49:25.:49:28.

the interest not only of the United Kingdom, but also of the continuing

:49:29.:49:34.

European Union, given the significant strength that we can

:49:35.:49:37.

bring to the table. One of the 12 objectives that the

:49:38.:49:41.

Prime Minister outlined yesterday for the negotiations ahead will be

:49:42.:49:45.

to establish a new relationship, which enables the United Kingdom and

:49:46.:49:49.

the European Union to continue practical cooperation, to tackle

:49:50.:49:54.

cross-border crime and to keep all our people say.

:49:55.:49:59.

My right honourable friend the Secretary of State reiterated this

:50:00.:50:05.

to the House yesterday and made clear during his appearance before

:50:06.:50:10.

the select committee in December that a future relationship on

:50:11.:50:14.

security, law enforcement and criminal Justice cooperation will be

:50:15.:50:17.

one of the Government's priorities when the negotiations commence.

:50:18.:50:24.

Whilst the UK is leading leaving the European Union it is self-evidently

:50:25.:50:28.

not leaving Europe. The reality of cross-border crime and the threats

:50:29.:50:32.

to security will remain. In December, as referred to by the

:50:33.:50:38.

honourable member for Edinburgh South West, the House of Lords EU

:50:39.:50:41.

Home Affairs Select Committee report on this subject concluded there was

:50:42.:50:47.

a shed, strong mutual interest between the United Kingdom on the 27

:50:48.:50:52.

continuing EU member states, to make sure cooperation in tackling these

:50:53.:50:58.

threats continues. To this end, the United Kingdom already has strong

:50:59.:51:01.

bilateral relationships with member states in other countries across the

:51:02.:51:06.

globe that help address security threats and serious organised crime,

:51:07.:51:09.

as well as facilitating the delivery of effective justice.

:51:10.:51:13.

We intend to continue that close cooperation with our European and

:51:14.:51:17.

global allies on promoting security and justice across Europe after we

:51:18.:51:22.

leave. Mr Speaker, our position... Yes, I

:51:23.:51:30.

will give way. In my remarks I did refer to, and in

:51:31.:51:35.

fact when he came before my European scrutiny committee a few weeks ago,

:51:36.:51:39.

to the question of the attitude to be adopted in relation to the count

:51:40.:51:45.

of votes of ministers. Will we give an indication towards the trend to

:51:46.:51:50.

make sure where we stand on Brexit matters, within the framework of the

:51:51.:51:55.

decision-making process? Yes, well, clearly as my honourable

:51:56.:52:00.

friend has pointed out, there is now a change in the staffing, so far as

:52:01.:52:07.

the United Kingdom is concerned. As we move closer to Brexit,

:52:08.:52:11.

particularly after we have triggered Article 50, it is inevitable that

:52:12.:52:14.

that position will develop and change.

:52:15.:52:20.

Mr Speaker, there were a number of points made by honourable members

:52:21.:52:24.

during the course of the debate. In the short time available to me I

:52:25.:52:27.

would like to comment on as many of them as I possibly can. The

:52:28.:52:33.

honourable member for West Ham asked what guarantees can be given that

:52:34.:52:37.

security and law enforcement will not be compromised as a consequence

:52:38.:52:41.

of our departure from the European Union.

:52:42.:52:46.

Well, of course, we haven't yet started the process of negotiation,

:52:47.:52:49.

we haven't even yet triggered Article 50. We are leaving the EU,

:52:50.:52:55.

which as I've previously indicated, cooperation on law enforcement and

:52:56.:52:58.

security with our European and global allies will remain a priority

:52:59.:53:03.

for the Government. The Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have

:53:04.:53:07.

both spoken with several EU partners, who have been clear about

:53:08.:53:11.

their wish to maintain strong cooperation with the United Kingdom,

:53:12.:53:15.

and that is a good basis for starting that negotiation. But

:53:16.:53:19.

clearly we are very early days. My right honourable friend, the

:53:20.:53:23.

honourable member for Mid Sussex made what I thought was an excellent

:53:24.:53:28.

speech. He referred to the Prime Minister's on speech and made it

:53:29.:53:33.

clear that it is important that the United Kingdom continues to be a

:53:34.:53:37.

close friend of the continuing EU. That is certainly the spirit in

:53:38.:53:40.

which the Government intends to approach these negotiations.

:53:41.:53:45.

The honourable member for Edinburgh South West and a number of other

:53:46.:53:53.

members raised the issue of data protection is, data protection in

:53:54.:53:57.

the continuing EU, and the extent to which the continuing EU would wish

:53:58.:54:01.

to share data or would be able to share data with the United Kingdom.

:54:02.:54:06.

What I would point out that regard is of course that on the day of

:54:07.:54:11.

departure, the United Kingdom's data protection arrangements will be in

:54:12.:54:15.

perfect alignment with those of the continuing EU. Forgive me, I have

:54:16.:54:20.

very little time. But that again will be a good basis

:54:21.:54:26.

for continuing those negotiations. LAUGHTER

:54:27.:54:33.

My honourable friend, the member for Bromley and Chislehurst, the

:54:34.:54:36.

chairman of the Justice select committee, raised the issue of the

:54:37.:54:41.

European Arrest Warrant. He said that the United Kingdom

:54:42.:54:46.

should seek to remain within the arrangements of the arrest warrant

:54:47.:54:50.

and said effectively that we should be seeking to be pragmatic in the

:54:51.:54:54.

future negotiations. That is certainly the case, so far as the

:54:55.:54:59.

United Kingdom government is concerned, similarly we look for

:55:00.:55:01.

pragmatism from our continuing EU colleagues.

:55:02.:55:07.

A number of Honourable members, those for West Ham, Bath, Hampstead

:55:08.:55:12.

in Kilburn, Richmond Park and Leicester East raised the issue of

:55:13.:55:17.

what access we would have 2 euros poll. Again, we are clearly at a

:55:18.:55:26.

very early stage in the negotiations. The negotiations

:55:27.:55:29.

clearly will take some time to progress, but the Prime Minister has

:55:30.:55:35.

stated law enforcement cooperation will certainly continue once the

:55:36.:55:39.

United Kingdom has left the EU, and we are exploring options for

:55:40.:55:44.

cooperation arrangements with Eurpol once the United Kingdom has left the

:55:45.:55:49.

EU. To repeat, these are very early days. The right honourable... Yes, I

:55:50.:55:55.

will briefly. I will be very brief, I know he has a limited amount of

:55:56.:56:03.

time. 30 just clarify this point... He said negotiations are at an early

:56:04.:56:07.

stage. I understood that there are no negotiations until Article 50 has

:56:08.:56:14.

been triggered. Is he telling the House that negotiations in this area

:56:15.:56:18.

have actually begun, even though they are at an early stage?

:56:19.:56:23.

He is absolutely right. The negotiations are at such an early

:56:24.:56:26.

stage that they haven't yet commenced! So to that extent, he is

:56:27.:56:33.

quite right and he has chastised me and I am pleased to stand corrected.

:56:34.:56:40.

The right honourable member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford

:56:41.:56:43.

asked whether there was anything in the European, the new treaties to

:56:44.:56:48.

prevent us becoming, continuing to be a member of Europol. I understand

:56:49.:56:53.

that the EU treaties do not allow for non-EU members to join Europol

:56:54.:57:01.

as full members, but we, of course, as has already been indicated are

:57:02.:57:06.

seeking bespoke arrangements with the European Union in this regard

:57:07.:57:12.

and access to Europol on as enhanced basis as possible is something we

:57:13.:57:15.

would wish to pursue. Yes, I will way.

:57:16.:57:20.

Given evidence to the select committee that suggested although

:57:21.:57:23.

the treaties did not provide for it, they also did not rule it out. So it

:57:24.:57:29.

would be helpful to accept the Government's interpretation.

:57:30.:57:33.

Certainly the position as I understand it, as I have just

:57:34.:57:39.

stated. But this is a matter that I shall pursue and investigate. But

:57:40.:57:43.

the position as I understand it, I have just set out.

:57:44.:57:49.

My honourable friend the member for Bath asked whether the United

:57:50.:57:51.

Kingdom would be putting human rights at the forefront of our

:57:52.:57:56.

negotiating agenda. Certainly the United Kingdom has, of course, a

:57:57.:58:02.

very long-standing tradition of ensuring that our rights, traditions

:58:03.:58:06.

and liberties are protected and we see no reason to depart from that. I

:58:07.:58:09.

will give way. Thank you for giving way. There is a

:58:10.:58:17.

responsibility over the Crown dependencies, I just spent two days

:58:18.:58:20.

with the select committee talking to the Government on the Isle of Man.

:58:21.:58:25.

They have a simple message, will the Minister come to the dispatch box

:58:26.:58:29.

and say the Crown dependencies will not be forgotten throughout this

:58:30.:58:32.

process of any agreement reached with the rest of the European Union?

:58:33.:58:37.

I can give the honourable gentleman that assurance. There have been many

:58:38.:58:42.

meetings with representatives of the Crown dependencies and this will

:58:43.:58:44.

continue all the way through the process of exit from the European

:58:45.:58:47.

Union. The honourable member for Kingston

:58:48.:58:55.

and Surbiton rightly reminded us that many security arrangements are

:58:56.:58:59.

done largely on a bilateral basis. And that the United Kingdom has

:59:00.:59:03.

significant strengths in this regard and he is quite right. Of course,

:59:04.:59:07.

those arrangements will continue and will not be disturbed by our

:59:08.:59:12.

departure from the European Union. The right honourable member for

:59:13.:59:22.

Leeds Central, who chairs the select committee, congratulated my

:59:23.:59:24.

department for its speedy response to his most recent report, at least

:59:25.:59:31.

in two respects. I'm glad to see that we are giving satisfaction.

:59:32.:59:41.

He asked whether the department would be publishing and when its

:59:42.:59:47.

economic analysis that underpins the plan that was outlined by the Prime

:59:48.:59:52.

Minister yesterday. I can assure him that the analysis that he refers to

:59:53.:59:56.

is one that is continuing, and it will continue for some time. But he

:59:57.:00:03.

must understand that I am sure he does understand, that to go into too

:00:04.:00:09.

much detail about that analysis at this particular stage could

:00:10.:00:12.

compromise our negotiating position, but again, I give him the assurance

:00:13.:00:17.

he sat before, that as time passes, we will consider and reconsider the

:00:18.:00:23.

issue of how much information should be passed to his committee.

:00:24.:00:29.

Can I seek an assurance that he says the analysis is continuing. Can he

:00:30.:00:37.

tell the House that it's not going to continue for another two and a

:00:38.:00:41.

half years so as to avoid the need to publish anything before the

:00:42.:00:44.

negotiations are considered? It does seem to the select committee

:00:45.:00:48.

perfectly reasonable without comprising the Government's

:00:49.:00:51.

negotiating hand to reveal to the House and to the public what is the

:00:52.:00:55.

analysis of the different options. Because it will help to inform a

:00:56.:00:59.

view that people want to reach about the plan of the Government has set

:01:00.:01:03.

out. I have no doubt that analysis will continue for some considerable

:01:04.:01:07.

time. Whether it continues for two and a half years, I doubt. But I've

:01:08.:01:12.

heard of the right Honourable gentleman had to say and we will

:01:13.:01:15.

continue to consider the position. But at this particular stage, I

:01:16.:01:19.

believe that it would compromise the negotiation. We heard from the

:01:20.:01:25.

honourable member for Stoke-on-Trent Central in his valedictory

:01:26.:01:30.

contribution to the House. Could I, on behalf of members of the side of

:01:31.:01:33.

the House, wishing very well in his future endeavours. -- wish him very

:01:34.:01:41.

well. He reminded us quite correctly that Britain, the United Kingdom, is

:01:42.:01:45.

part of the greater European culture. I'm sure that under his

:01:46.:01:50.

direction, the Victoria and Albert Museum will continue to reflect

:01:51.:01:56.

that. I do wish you well. My honourable friend the member for

:01:57.:02:03.

Stone made a contribution in which she expressed concern of the use for

:02:04.:02:09.

the European arrest warrant for crimes that he regarded as trivial.

:02:10.:02:14.

The European arrest warrant was radically reformed by the previous

:02:15.:02:17.

coalition government to offer better protection for British citizens and

:02:18.:02:20.

others are subject to extradition proceedings. British citizens can no

:02:21.:02:25.

longer be extradited where a case is not try already, where the conduct

:02:26.:02:30.

that took place is within the United Kingdom, or where it is simply not

:02:31.:02:34.

proportionate to do so. And these protections are set out in United

:02:35.:02:41.

Kingdom legislation. Concerns about the European arrest warrant were

:02:42.:02:44.

also expressed by my honourable friend, the member for stroke, who

:02:45.:02:54.

raised a specific case. -- the member for Stoke. My right

:02:55.:02:58.

honourable friend has attended to the points made. His concerns about

:02:59.:03:06.

the use of the European arrest warrant were also expressed by the

:03:07.:03:09.

Right Honourable member for Leicester East. The honourable

:03:10.:03:17.

member raised the issue of the Common travel area. That is a matter

:03:18.:03:21.

of concern. The Common travel area is something that long predates our

:03:22.:03:28.

membership, our island's membership of the European Union. It goes back

:03:29.:03:32.

to 1923 and the Government has made it very clear that preserving those

:03:33.:03:36.

arrangements are something that we regard as at the forefront of our

:03:37.:03:38.

mind as we approach the negotiations. The honourable member

:03:39.:03:44.

for Edinburgh East raised the issue of respect for Scotland in the

:03:45.:03:50.

United Kingdom. And he referred to what he described as the spectre of

:03:51.:03:55.

a dystopian future in which the United Kingdom turns in on itself.

:03:56.:03:59.

This is not the future which the Government sees for the United

:04:00.:04:03.

Kingdom outside of the European Union. In fact, we see a more

:04:04.:04:07.

global, outward looking Britain. A Britain that is not confined by the

:04:08.:04:13.

limits of the European Union. You also raised the issue of respect for

:04:14.:04:16.

Scotland and the paper that got and has recently issued. He will be

:04:17.:04:22.

aware that the Government, in order to address the issue of the impact

:04:23.:04:26.

of Brexit upon the devolved administrations, established the

:04:27.:04:34.

joint ministerial committee for exiting the European Union. This is

:04:35.:04:37.

the forum in which these issues are raised and discussed and debated.

:04:38.:04:41.

There is one such this week. I do not believe that any suggestion that

:04:42.:04:47.

there is a lack of respect for Scotland, or for any of the other

:04:48.:04:52.

devolved administrations. I'm grateful to the minister, but would

:04:53.:04:54.

it not enhance the discussions taking place if there were

:04:55.:05:01.

discussions between ministers in his department and their counterparts in

:05:02.:05:04.

Scotland in order to prepare some of the detail of these particular

:05:05.:05:10.

matters? Discussions will certainly continue. But I have to say that I

:05:11.:05:16.

do regard it as highly unfair for the honourable gentleman to suggest

:05:17.:05:21.

that there is any lack of respect for Scotland. I believe the

:05:22.:05:23.

Government could have done hardly any more to accommodate the concerns

:05:24.:05:30.

of the devolved administrations. Mr Speaker, in closing, I'd like to say

:05:31.:05:33.

what a useful, genuinely useful debate we have had today. As I end

:05:34.:05:41.

my right honourable friend have made it clear, this is an issue that is

:05:42.:05:45.

the utmost importance to the Government as we prepare to

:05:46.:05:48.

negotiate our exit from the European Union. This was reinforced by my

:05:49.:05:52.

right honourable friend the Prime Minister, who has said that

:05:53.:05:56.

cooperation with the EU in the fight against crime and terrorism will be

:05:57.:06:00.

one of government's principal priorities were negotiations begin.

:06:01.:06:03.

We are determined that the United Kingdom will continue to be a

:06:04.:06:07.

leading contributor in the fight against crime and the promotion of

:06:08.:06:12.

security and justice. Not only in the United Kingdom and European

:06:13.:06:15.

Union, but indeed throughout the world. The question is that this

:06:16.:06:26.

house has considered exiting the EU and security law enforcement and

:06:27.:06:32.

criminal justice. As many say aye, to the contrary, no. I beg to move

:06:33.:06:39.

this house do now adjourn. The question is that this house do now

:06:40.:06:44.

adjourn. Mr Nigel Evans. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's a great delight for

:06:45.:06:51.

me to have this opportunity one year Ron to reflect on what happened in

:06:52.:06:59.

the Ribble Valley during those floods. But also to look at what

:07:00.:07:03.

progress has been made as far as resilience and protection is

:07:04.:07:09.

concerned, and prevention. And indeed to thank some people who were

:07:10.:07:17.

beyond the call of duty who came to help those in distress. I remember

:07:18.:07:29.

on Boxing Day 2015 hrs that my sister's house. -- I was at my

:07:30.:07:34.

sister's house. I received a text message from a friend of mine who

:07:35.:07:39.

has been elevated to the House of Lords, Robert Hayward, Lord Hayward.

:07:40.:07:43.

He said what is happening in your constituency. I sent a message back

:07:44.:07:49.

saying, what do you mean? He said, floods. There have been a flood in

:07:50.:07:53.

the Ribble Valley just over a week earlier. I thought perhaps they were

:07:54.:07:58.

showing historic footage of what has happened several days before. So I

:07:59.:08:04.

didn't think too much of it, but went and switched the television on.

:08:05.:08:12.

Sky News was coming live from one of my villages. The reporter was

:08:13.:08:20.

several feet underwater, and I watched live footage of one of my

:08:21.:08:23.

constituents being carried from a small cottage, an elderly lady,

:08:24.:08:29.

manhandled out of her property in order to be taken to a safe place

:08:30.:08:38.

where the floods hadn't happened further up the road. My eyes were

:08:39.:08:43.

wide open and I was aghast to see the condition of the main Street

:08:44.:08:49.

through the village. What I hadn't realised was that the flooding was

:08:50.:08:55.

much more extensive than that. I called to my sister and I said, I'm

:08:56.:09:02.

going. This was Boxing Day. I was due to be there about four days. She

:09:03.:09:08.

said, what do you mean? I said, I'm going to be Ribble Valley. She asked

:09:09.:09:12.

why. I taught to look at the television and she would understand.

:09:13.:09:16.

What can you do? It's a great question. The fact is being there,

:09:17.:09:21.

and that was the answer. I had to be there, there was no other place that

:09:22.:09:25.

I could be on that day. So I got in the car, drove four and a bit hours

:09:26.:09:30.

towards the Ribble Valley. As I came off the motorway, off the M6, I

:09:31.:09:36.

normally would turn right immediately. But I couldn't do that

:09:37.:09:43.

because the main road off the motorway junction was flooded. So I

:09:44.:09:47.

had to go round. Then I used my local knowledge to work out another

:09:48.:09:51.

route through which was quite extensive through Preston. Then what

:09:52.:09:58.

I did was I dropped into Longridge, first of all, whether was an

:09:59.:10:01.

emergency centre in one of the village halls, and spoke to four

:10:02.:10:06.

people there. Nobody had reported there because it was several miles

:10:07.:10:11.

away from the main village. I think it was just too far away. People

:10:12.:10:14.

were making their own arrangements in many ways, some going to the

:10:15.:10:24.

Clitheroe golf club a bit further out, and the local school further

:10:25.:10:28.

Oppo said that they were available to take anybody. And of course

:10:29.:10:34.

neighbours were coming to the assistance of those in distress.

:10:35.:10:39.

When I drove into Ribchester, because that is an area that gets

:10:40.:10:44.

flooded from time to time, I went to have a look at the river Ribble, not

:10:45.:10:54.

far from Saint Wilfrid's Church, which is my local church. And it's

:10:55.:10:59.

an extensive area. I have to say, my mouth dropped open. I have never,

:11:00.:11:03.

ever seen that river is so high. If it had gone just another few inches,

:11:04.:11:10.

it would have broken its banks into the Main Street in Ribchester. I've

:11:11.:11:15.

never seen anything like it and I spoke to one of the residents there

:11:16.:11:19.

who said he was waiting for it to go one step further before he started

:11:20.:11:25.

moving his furniture and possessions from the bottom floor to the top

:11:26.:11:30.

floor. I then went around to where the Ribchester Arms pub was. It's

:11:31.:11:39.

Boxing Day. They were ready to take in all the bookings that they had

:11:40.:11:44.

during that day. Of course, they couldn't open at school. They were

:11:45.:11:51.

completely flooded. The landlord and landlady were on the top floor. The

:11:52.:11:54.

firemen were already there pumping water away from one electrical

:11:55.:12:00.

substation to make sure that that was still operational so that there

:12:01.:12:03.

were still like on at the top of the pub. That pub was closed for several

:12:04.:12:10.

weeks. -- so that there were still lights on. Never mind be colossal

:12:11.:12:19.

cost of the waste of all of the food, the equipment that was

:12:20.:12:24.

damaged, and indeed the loss of trade during that period of time.

:12:25.:12:31.

Thank you for making a heartfelt, passionate beach. It reminds me of

:12:32.:12:35.

exactly what happened in my constituency one year ago. --

:12:36.:12:40.

passionate speech. On the subject of businesses being affected, many of

:12:41.:12:44.

the businesses in my constituency now the excesses of ?50,000 or more

:12:45.:12:48.

and cannot get cost-effective insurance. Would he agree with me

:12:49.:12:53.

enjoy my calls to persuade the flood scheme to small businesses to be

:12:54.:12:57.

re-extended, because at the moment it is no solace to those businesses

:12:58.:13:01.

that stand on the precipice. By than happy to do that. In fact, I spoke

:13:02.:13:07.

with Mark Hogan who is in charge of the Flood Re Scheme. It is for us to

:13:08.:13:17.

extend that out to businesses as well. I've got no doubt that will

:13:18.:13:23.

that the premiums for a lot of small to medium-sized enterprises that are

:13:24.:13:25.

prone to flooding or have made claims will go through the roof. And

:13:26.:13:29.

if we think it's a good idea to spread the risk with domestic

:13:30.:13:36.

premises, which we have done by the Flood Re Scheme, which is very good

:13:37.:13:41.

indeed, then I can't see any good reason whatsoever not to extend that

:13:42.:13:46.

to businesses as well. In fact, I will come on later to talk about one

:13:47.:13:49.

of businesses which have been doubly hit in more ways than one. I'm

:13:50.:14:00.

delighted to see you in your seat, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I know

:14:01.:14:04.

you yourself experience in your constituency about flooding also. It

:14:05.:14:11.

affected a number of areas and my honourable friend, the member for

:14:12.:14:19.

South Ribble, is in her seat also. Looking at this river and talking to

:14:20.:14:24.

some of the locals, I have today absolutely brilliant praise to the

:14:25.:14:30.

emergency services for all the work that they did. If you think about

:14:31.:14:35.

it, in the early hours of Christmas or the late hours of Christmas

:14:36.:14:39.

night, early hours of Boxing Day, the army were knocking on doors.

:14:40.:14:44.

They already knew what was going to happen and they were alerting people

:14:45.:14:49.

to either get out or secure their promises. Get their possessions

:14:50.:14:55.

upstairs if they could. But they weren't working during the time when

:14:56.:14:59.

other people were celebrating with their families. -- they were

:15:00.:15:03.

working. Absolute praise everything that they did and the early flood

:15:04.:15:07.

warning system that clearly was working. I then went down into the

:15:08.:15:10.

village itself, which was featured on the television most of Friday. --

:15:11.:15:18.

most of that day. A lot of the water had subsided by that time because it

:15:19.:15:22.

was several hours on. But, my goodness me, the damage that had

:15:23.:15:27.

been done during those hours was absolutely phenomenal. It wasn't

:15:28.:15:31.

just the main road, it was several streets back. On both sides.

:15:32.:15:37.

I went to chat to the landlord of the Dog Inn and he was able to tell

:15:38.:15:49.

meal the things that had gone up on that day. Then I went towards

:15:50.:15:56.

another village, on the other side of the constituency, and I had to

:15:57.:16:01.

actually turn my car around there because I couldn't distinguish the

:16:02.:16:05.

road from the river, it was so high. I thought, if I go any further I

:16:06.:16:09.

will be adding to the problems because my car will be stuck and

:16:10.:16:14.

it's 04 by four. I reversed back and then got back home. The next morning

:16:15.:16:17.

I got up and then went back into Worley, and there the salvage

:16:18.:16:26.

operation had begun. And my goodness me, to see the volunteers, the

:16:27.:16:30.

people who are giving up their Christmases, to help their

:16:31.:16:33.

neighbours, was heart-warming beyond belief.

:16:34.:16:38.

There was one story of a group of four men who were travelling up to

:16:39.:16:42.

Scotland for Hogmanay, going pretty early by the sounds of it, but

:16:43.:16:44.

nonetheless, they heard what happened in Morley and drove off the

:16:45.:16:52.

M6 and turned up in the village and picked on some house at random and

:16:53.:16:55.

helps them clear their possessions from the House onto the streets,

:16:56.:17:01.

into skips and then they got back in the car and continued their holiday.

:17:02.:17:08.

What fantastic people, to do that. Other people had the good sense to

:17:09.:17:16.

get money and drive into the Ribble Valley, actually handing money out

:17:17.:17:18.

to families. When you think about it, there are some people who

:17:19.:17:22.

wouldn't have any money. They'd lost all their food, they may live alone,

:17:23.:17:27.

they may have spent all their money on Christmas and they just didn't

:17:28.:17:31.

get access to money. So actually giving some money out to them gave

:17:32.:17:35.

them a bit of a lifeline. They didn't need to do that, but they

:17:36.:17:39.

did. Then people came from all over the area, to come and help, from

:17:40.:17:45.

some charities in Blackburn who came to give assistance. It was a

:17:46.:17:49.

colossal operation, to help people get all their possessions out of

:17:50.:17:54.

their front living rooms and their kitchens, get the food out, and I

:17:55.:17:58.

pay tribute to the skip operators who managed to get skips in on a

:17:59.:18:02.

regular basis. The police, who managed to get a one-way system

:18:03.:18:06.

through the village, as well. I've got to say, I learn something as

:18:07.:18:10.

well. Talking about all the great things, but afraid now and then we

:18:11.:18:14.

had flood tourists, who decided they wanted to come in just have a look.

:18:15.:18:18.

They thought it was rather clever to drive through some of the water that

:18:19.:18:23.

was there and then splashing the water into the businesses that had

:18:24.:18:26.

already suffered greatly. I thought that was really thoughtless and

:18:27.:18:30.

careless of some people to do that. I remember talking to one chap,

:18:31.:18:37.

Andrew Ronan, who is done so much tremendous work as a volunteer, who

:18:38.:18:41.

said, I didn't know what I expected to do the day after Boxing Day but

:18:42.:18:45.

it wasn't a manhandle a piano into a skip, and that's what he was doing.

:18:46.:18:53.

The volunteers, and I've got to say, absolutely superb, led by Gillian 's

:18:54.:19:00.

barbershop, president of Worley Lyons, and with some of her friends,

:19:01.:19:04.

Kelly Hughes, who runs the hairdresser shop. Her shop with hit

:19:05.:19:11.

badly and still being repaired. She didn't cut for a few days because

:19:12.:19:16.

she went straight across to the village hall, which they

:19:17.:19:18.

requisitioned, where people turned up to give electrical goods,

:19:19.:19:24.

blankets, food, hot coffee was served there, other food was served

:19:25.:19:27.

there, it was quite amazing. Politicians had given up their time

:19:28.:19:32.

to come in and test all the goods to make sure they weren't handing out

:19:33.:19:39.

faulty electrical items. And other volunteers like Max and Katie... I'm

:19:40.:19:44.

afraid I'm going to forget people on this one, but even the Dog Inn were

:19:45.:19:48.

giving out coffee and damages to volunteers who were coming in to

:19:49.:19:52.

help. There was another electrician who was going around, helping to go

:19:53.:19:58.

to people's houses. And then of course the electricity board

:19:59.:20:00.

themselves were coming in, to switch people off and making sure

:20:01.:20:04.

everything was safe to get people switch back on. There was one

:20:05.:20:08.

volunteer who came in and he'd had some training on mental health

:20:09.:20:13.

issues, because we did have people where this flood actually turned

:20:14.:20:19.

them over the edge. You can understand why an Boxing Day, when

:20:20.:20:23.

they saw their houses destroyed, how this person was able to talk

:20:24.:20:28.

somebody out of his bedroom, to try and get him downstairs, in order he

:20:29.:20:31.

could get the assistance that he finally got. And that's one area

:20:32.:20:37.

where I think we need to pay some attention to, as far as future flood

:20:38.:20:45.

actions are concerned. And so... I've also got to pay

:20:46.:20:52.

tribute to Marshall Scott, the chief executive of Ribble Valley Council.

:20:53.:20:55.

He was there from boxing night onwards. They basically moved a lot

:20:56.:21:01.

of the offices from Ribble Valley Council into Worley and they were

:21:02.:21:06.

operating in that particular village hall. He was there every day, giving

:21:07.:21:11.

assistance to people who badly needed it. Part of the problem was,

:21:12.:21:16.

some of these businesses and homes were hit a week ago when the water

:21:17.:21:22.

came rushing down. Andrew Ronan had already called some of the locals

:21:23.:21:26.

together to say, what are we going to do about this? All we need is for

:21:27.:21:30.

the river to break its banks and we could have real problems. Well, we

:21:31.:21:38.

had real problems. What it did, it brought the

:21:39.:21:43.

community together. Now I mentioned Gillian Darbyshire. One of the roads

:21:44.:21:50.

that was badly damaged, one of the areas, was the houses in called

:21:51.:21:59.

avail. It is a rough road, and if you look at it now, if you go and

:22:00.:22:05.

visit that road, the Worley Lions raised ?100,000, got a match by

:22:06.:22:11.

donations from the Freemasons and they have put a proper surface, it's

:22:12.:22:16.

one of the best roads in the Ribble Valley now! It's absolutely superb.

:22:17.:22:20.

I couldn't believe it when I went down there the other day and I

:22:21.:22:24.

thought, wow, look at that, that's what can happen when the community

:22:25.:22:28.

gets together and work together. I pay tribute to her for leading the

:22:29.:22:34.

volunteers that are there. And there's one chap called Alan

:22:35.:22:46.

Elliott, whose house was at the back of Calder Vale his had half his

:22:47.:22:52.

garden washed away and his car was all right. I went to see Alan just

:22:53.:22:57.

the other day. One would rather have hoped that the Environment Agency

:22:58.:23:03.

would have looked at his damage and would have given a bit more

:23:04.:23:06.

assistance than they did, to be honest. He's had to spend thousands

:23:07.:23:11.

of pounds of his own money, to be able to shore up the garden, to make

:23:12.:23:15.

sure that it is going to be resilient against any further rises

:23:16.:23:21.

in the river flow... Yes, of course I will.

:23:22.:23:25.

I thank my honourable friend for giving way and securing this debate,

:23:26.:23:30.

because it is very important in our area collectively in Lancashire.

:23:31.:23:33.

Would my right honourable friend agree with me Lancashire Council

:23:34.:23:37.

didn't apply for any future funding for flood defences until at least

:23:38.:23:41.

April, after the floods in December, meaning they missed out in the

:23:42.:23:46.

budget in 2016? Wasn't that a little short of them?

:23:47.:23:51.

I'm hoping a lot of lessons are now going to be learnt. That any funding

:23:52.:23:55.

that is made available to be claimed, and remember the big

:23:56.:23:59.

argument we had about claiming that European flood money, which of

:24:00.:24:02.

course we all pay into, so it's only getting our own money back. It was

:24:03.:24:06.

ages before we did that and I thought that was a huge mistake. We

:24:07.:24:11.

should have done it from the very beginning. And I was told how

:24:12.:24:14.

complicated it was to claim the money, that has to be sorted out, it

:24:15.:24:19.

shouldn't be complicated when one is paying into an insurance, when

:24:20.:24:23.

there's so much time that has to go in, so many pages have to be filled

:24:24.:24:27.

in to claim our own money back. I think there are a lot of lessons

:24:28.:24:31.

that need to be learned by Lancashire County Council and by the

:24:32.:24:33.

Government generally, as to what needs to be done in order that the

:24:34.:24:42.

tragedy that is awarded there is an added to by their own action or

:24:43.:24:46.

inaction. I also want to praise the rescues

:24:47.:24:52.

collection people as well. One wouldn't expect to see them the next

:24:53.:24:59.

day after Boxing Day. -- refuse collection. There's very few

:25:00.:25:04.

pictures in my mind more sad than seeing the refuse people backing up

:25:05.:25:08.

into a street and Christmas trees the day after Boxing Day being

:25:09.:25:13.

loaded on because they were clearing the whole of the houses. It was a

:25:14.:25:17.

very sad picture to see that, never mind the fact that people who were

:25:18.:25:21.

already under stress, there was one lady whose husband was dying, had

:25:22.:25:26.

all the problems added onto the fact that then she was having to clear

:25:27.:25:30.

out her house as well. There are still some people not back in their

:25:31.:25:37.

homes a year on. And so big questions have to be asked about the

:25:38.:25:42.

resilience of some of the properties. I know my honourable

:25:43.:25:46.

friend is going to answer this debate, has done her own report into

:25:47.:25:50.

this and I hope a lot can be learned from that.

:25:51.:25:53.

I also praise the councillors stereo, Joyce Holgate, Jed Merson

:25:54.:25:59.

and others. Councillors came from all over the area, even if their

:26:00.:26:03.

areas weren't flooded. They came in and gave assistance as well.

:26:04.:26:12.

And also for James Bevan and the deaf for a minister, who turned up

:26:13.:26:17.

the day after Boxing Day. I couldn't leave it, there they were in

:26:18.:26:21.

Wellington boots, walking through the village. I was able to show them

:26:22.:26:25.

some of the damage that was there. So James looked into the river

:26:26.:26:35.

Calder... One farmhouse was totally underwater. And also those insurance

:26:36.:26:42.

companies that were prompt and others, who weren't. Where the

:26:43.:26:47.

answer phones were on saying, please phone us, we are on holiday, please

:26:48.:26:53.

get in touch on the 28th 29th of December, whenever it was, when

:26:54.:26:58.

there is the flooding that took place on such a colossal scale that

:26:59.:27:01.

affected so many thousands of people, one would have thought that

:27:02.:27:04.

all the insurance companies would have been fair to have helped.

:27:05.:27:12.

-- been fair. I mentioned Andrew Ronan. He has managed to create a

:27:13.:27:16.

group called the Worley and Billington flood action group. He's

:27:17.:27:20.

managed to draw expertise that one would find in any sort of large

:27:21.:27:27.

village and surrounding areas of people who are civil engineers,

:27:28.:27:31.

people who have knowledge of flood prevention, and they have regular

:27:32.:27:41.

meetings, in order to liaise with the flood authority, Lancashire

:27:42.:27:45.

County Council, Ribble Valley county council, and the Environment Agency

:27:46.:27:49.

as well. Looking at the long-term plan, because we've got to do that

:27:50.:27:53.

and we have to make sure that these once-in-a-lifetime events, which are

:27:54.:27:56.

happening now quite regularly, certainly in my lifetime, that

:27:57.:28:01.

anything that is preventable, that leads to the misery that I saw that

:28:02.:28:05.

day, needs to be taken. There are some that relate to the river and

:28:06.:28:13.

there are others that relate to the housing as well, that's being built,

:28:14.:28:17.

particularly in Worley, on rather a large scale.

:28:18.:28:25.

I think it might just be useful if I talk about that now, because there

:28:26.:28:32.

one that section called Lawson rise which is being developed, in part,

:28:33.:28:39.

by Redrow. As part of that scheme that there should be drainage and

:28:40.:28:53.

ponds as part of that, so water retention in their place. They've

:28:54.:28:58.

been building houses but as far as those ponds are concerned, that has

:28:59.:29:00.

a map. They themselves said it needed to happen, and it hasn't

:29:01.:29:06.

happened. I understand there may be problems, as far as the design and

:29:07.:29:10.

where those ponds go but the reality is they are now in breach of the

:29:11.:29:16.

conditions that the Local Authority have set, but they still think it's

:29:17.:29:21.

OK to build the houses get people moving in. Well, it's not. They have

:29:22.:29:26.

a responsibility to the people who are going to live on that estate,

:29:27.:29:30.

but also to the people who may be affected by the building of those

:29:31.:29:35.

houses. Not just those houses, but other houses that would be built on

:29:36.:29:39.

the same plot. It is their responsibility to ensure that all

:29:40.:29:43.

that area is going to be properly drained and the water that will run

:29:44.:29:46.

off is going to be retained. How dare they not take the action that

:29:47.:29:53.

they should, at this moment in time, and that they think it's OK to carry

:29:54.:30:00.

on building those houses. Without putting in that proper attenuation.

:30:01.:30:10.

My honourable friend is making an incredibly important speech and he

:30:11.:30:18.

has mentioned the question of a building company. And I want to know

:30:19.:30:22.

that all over the country, many on both sides of the House have the

:30:23.:30:27.

same experience with building companies who bang on until the cows

:30:28.:30:31.

come home about their corporate social responsibility, and being

:30:32.:30:35.

good neighbours, and all that, but with many of them, although not all

:30:36.:30:41.

of them, it is complete and utter toss. They need to honour their

:30:42.:30:45.

obligations and we seem to do so. I can only agree. Indeed, in one of

:30:46.:30:51.

the reports they talk about them being a shining light member of the

:30:52.:31:02.

considerate construction scheme. Also, Steve Morgan, the chairman,

:31:03.:31:08.

talks about Redgrave as being in great shape and looking forward to

:31:09.:31:11.

another year of significant progress. I've got an idea - that

:31:12.:31:15.

significant progress can be going into the things that need to be

:31:16.:31:19.

happening. There's another plot of land which one can see from the road

:31:20.:31:25.

which rather famously had a sign saying that it's a development site

:31:26.:31:31.

with permission for 39 dwellings. You can just see it above the water.

:31:32.:31:35.

This is absolutely famous and this did the rounds of social networking

:31:36.:31:43.

- for a single house. You should put any houses on an area susceptible to

:31:44.:31:47.

that sort of flooding. But what sort of attenuation would that need to

:31:48.:31:52.

make sure that the water didn't flood the houses going on there, and

:31:53.:31:56.

wasn't then push to flood the houses? And though I would now say

:31:57.:32:04.

to read Row on that particular site that notice has been served to say

:32:05.:32:11.

that they are in breach of the conditions that they were agreed to.

:32:12.:32:15.

When are they going to do it? When are they going to provide the

:32:16.:32:19.

attenuation that they said they would? Everybody is waiting. They

:32:20.:32:26.

have a social responsibility, in moral responsibility to do it. I

:32:27.:32:31.

know, as my right honourable friend would know, that these companies

:32:32.:32:35.

have got some great experts working for them and they know some tricks

:32:36.:32:39.

will stop they would know that there are certain things they can do to

:32:40.:32:42.

delay taking the action that they need. They've got very expensive

:32:43.:32:46.

lawyers who no doubt listening to every word I'm saying. But get on

:32:47.:32:52.

with it. Absolutely get on with it. We don't want to see any delay. We

:32:53.:32:56.

don't want to see any deferment. They know what they want to do and

:32:57.:33:01.

they need to do it now. It's not just an - it's every other developer

:33:02.:33:07.

who are building houses, who have conditions put upon them. They

:33:08.:33:12.

shouldn't see it as burdensome. They should see it as playing their part

:33:13.:33:17.

in a Kenya to say that they're not making other people'slives a misery.

:33:18.:33:21.

It may be a mile down the road, it may be two miles. The honourable

:33:22.:33:32.

member is making a powerful and moving each and he's touched by a

:33:33.:33:35.

number of good points. I would like to remind the House of Witney in

:33:36.:33:41.

2007 when there was serious flooding which affected a great deal of the

:33:42.:33:44.

town. I spoke in the House yesterday about blood attenuation schemes that

:33:45.:33:49.

the minister came to visit. -- about blood attenuation schemes. I ask the

:33:50.:33:54.

member whether he would agree to me that when it comes to making

:33:55.:33:57.

people'slives a misery, that is absolutely right. This is not just a

:33:58.:34:02.

matter of damage to property which, in due course, when the company 's

:34:03.:34:06.

pale, can be rectified. When I spoke to my constituencies affected by

:34:07.:34:12.

flooding, the fear and worry of that happening again lives on ten years

:34:13.:34:15.

or more after the event. Misery is just the right word. I thank you for

:34:16.:34:19.

the contribution. I think it's a key to mental torture. -- I think it's

:34:20.:34:28.

akin. Once you've gone through that misery, all of a sudden people have

:34:29.:34:31.

got one eye on the computer to see if there's a flood warning coming

:34:32.:34:37.

up. And they've had a few of since December 26 2015 and indeed they've

:34:38.:34:39.

had water coming through King street. The fact is that one has to

:34:40.:34:48.

recognise the impact that it has on people'slives once the properties

:34:49.:34:51.

have been swollen that way. This happened was, it can happen again,

:34:52.:34:55.

unless something has been done about it. -- once their properties have

:34:56.:35:01.

been soiled in that way. Once these things have happened, and it did

:35:02.:35:05.

happen on a high skill, as you know, don't we just had to wait and see

:35:06.:35:09.

what action needs to be taken. -- on a high scale. I know the Environment

:35:10.:35:15.

Agency is talking about ending ?2.3 billion over the next six years in

:35:16.:35:19.

doing a lot of the major works but need to be done. Whether that's

:35:20.:35:24.

going to be sufficient money, who knows. When one starts talking about

:35:25.:35:31.

2.3 billion, were talking about spending 3.5 billion on display. So

:35:32.:35:34.

I suppose that puts it in context, doesn't it? -- spending 3.5 billion

:35:35.:35:40.

on this place. We are looking at ensuring that the right sort of

:35:41.:35:44.

money is put in place to help alleviate the problem. We have

:35:45.:35:49.

companies like Network Rail who are doing a great deal of work in Morley

:35:50.:35:54.

on the aqueduct there and ensuring that the water that was flowing in

:35:55.:35:58.

an area that got badly flooded, their spending a lot of money and I

:35:59.:36:05.

sure -- I saw it for myself and I pay to be to them. And some

:36:06.:36:11.

companies like Axa Insurers are spending money on resilience because

:36:12.:36:15.

they've worked out that it in their interest to spend money on

:36:16.:36:17.

resilience measures that mean that when people sadly do get flooded,

:36:18.:36:23.

the cost to them will be a lot less. And there's a lot of sensible

:36:24.:36:26.

measures that people can take if they have got the means to do it. I

:36:27.:36:33.

remember going into one house in Ribchester and the lady had been

:36:34.:36:37.

flooded a bit before. I walked on her sodden carpet and she said the

:36:38.:36:44.

last time that this happened, she asked the insurance company if they

:36:45.:36:49.

could have lighting instead of carpets. And they said, oh, no,

:36:50.:36:55.

like-for-like, madam. And they wouldn't move. They moved this time.

:36:56.:36:59.

They've now got the message and of course the flagging means that if it

:37:00.:37:07.

happens in the future, at least something more easily can be done

:37:08.:37:12.

about it. I thought I would just quickly go through, because I know

:37:13.:37:19.

whether people would like to contribute, things that I believe

:37:20.:37:22.

ought to be done as far as looking forward to resilience in the future.

:37:23.:37:27.

As far as Morley is concerned, I know the Environment Agency are

:37:28.:37:31.

looking at proposals. They're looking at the action that can be

:37:32.:37:37.

taken, I'm told that the study will take about six months and then they

:37:38.:37:41.

will be putting a bid into government may be towards the autumn

:37:42.:37:46.

of 2017. I do hope that the Environment Agency can bring that

:37:47.:37:48.

forward as quickly as possible because of the mental torture that

:37:49.:37:52.

my honourable friend was talking about. Most people can't see

:37:53.:37:56.

anything substantial being done, they think it could happen again.

:37:57.:38:01.

And of course it can. I hope the Environment Agency will look at that

:38:02.:38:04.

area and a number of others to see what can be done, and working very

:38:05.:38:08.

closely with the local Flood action group, Andrew Bingham and his

:38:09.:38:16.

friends, the flood authority -- and lead Flood authorities and the local

:38:17.:38:20.

authorities as well. Not associated with the river Calder, but the

:38:21.:38:23.

surface water coming through, heavy rain, blocked culvert where Morley

:38:24.:38:29.

had a week earlier than 2015 been damaged. We've had water running

:38:30.:38:36.

through sense. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the local

:38:37.:38:39.

authority to look at those culverts and to make absolutely certain that

:38:40.:38:44.

they're not blocked. There's enough sensors now that can be made

:38:45.:38:47.

available in order for them to be able to do that. And I would say to

:38:48.:38:52.

Lancashire County Council, pull your finger out, have a look at these

:38:53.:38:56.

areas that are prone to flooding, and get it alters. And the drains as

:38:57.:39:02.

well. Kelly, who was the lady from the hairdressers, was cleaning the

:39:03.:39:07.

drains it well. This was after December the 26th when they were

:39:08.:39:10.

expecting more floods and she saw some of the drains were blocked. So

:39:11.:39:14.

there are simple things that can be done and I hope that they will be

:39:15.:39:21.

doing it. As far as planning is concerned as well, local authorities

:39:22.:39:24.

ought to be able, if it's a flood plain, to say no housing should be

:39:25.:39:30.

put on there. And that should be sufficient. So when they go to

:39:31.:39:33.

appeal, as they do, and use their expensive lawyers to dance rings

:39:34.:39:37.

around some local authorities who are rather structured -- rather

:39:38.:39:45.

strapped for cash, they should be able to say, no, this is a flood

:39:46.:39:48.

plain. Even with attenuation is still means that huge amounts of

:39:49.:39:52.

water that may be retained by those fields, like the one I've just shown

:39:53.:39:56.

the House, it's got to be made available for the future. And

:39:57.:40:02.

builders have got to take the responsibility that when conditions

:40:03.:40:05.

are put on them, they've got to comply. They have got to comply. I'd

:40:06.:40:10.

like to pay tribute to the Woodland Trust, who are planting trees all

:40:11.:40:13.

over the place. I don't think we pay enough regard for the usefulness of

:40:14.:40:19.

trees - particularly in ensuring the prevention of soil erosion which can

:40:20.:40:22.

easily happen. They've already planted thousands of trees in our

:40:23.:40:26.

area and this is something that we need to do more of. Insurance

:40:27.:40:31.

resilience measures have got to come in as well. The early payment of

:40:32.:40:38.

money and insurance is important to people so that they can get on with

:40:39.:40:41.

the job. We've got to pay regard for this end of getting three quotes,

:40:42.:40:46.

and all that sort of thing, which some insurance companies say.

:40:47.:40:51.

They're lucky to get one quote! When an area have been blighted by

:40:52.:40:55.

flooding on Boxing Day, you can imagine how difficult it was to even

:40:56.:41:00.

get one quote. Certainly, some are just not interested. So there has to

:41:01.:41:03.

be different measures put in place for reasonable costs that people are

:41:04.:41:08.

just able to get on with the job and do it. One person came to see me

:41:09.:41:12.

last week. So we're talking one year one. They put a claimant, part

:41:13.:41:20.

business. ?110,000 claim. They used a broker. The broker then insured

:41:21.:41:24.

with one company. The company then part insured with another company.

:41:25.:41:32.

That company went bust. They paid out ?35,000 per claim. They were

:41:33.:41:35.

going to get another 20,000 before that company went bust. He doesn't

:41:36.:41:40.

know when he's going to get paid. Even under the financial

:41:41.:41:44.

compensation balls but keep in place when you get 90%. -- financial

:41:45.:41:52.

compensation balls. I think it has to be fair that when one goes to the

:41:53.:41:58.

insurance company, the responsibility lies there. This

:41:59.:42:01.

person is now running around the House witless that he will not get

:42:02.:42:12.

the money that he needs. The person paying the premium, which in this

:42:13.:42:16.

case is just under ?5,000 a year, shouldn't have to suffer because of

:42:17.:42:26.

that. The emergency services have learned a lot by that day. By the

:42:27.:42:31.

fact that they had to come in and institute is one. That needs to be

:42:32.:42:36.

best practice that is spread around the country. Because what's happened

:42:37.:42:39.

in the Ribble Valley will happen in other areas, sadly, in the future.

:42:40.:42:43.

Best practice I think is something that can be done. The local Flood

:42:44.:42:48.

action group have done their own resilience programme telling people

:42:49.:42:51.

of the simple things, including phone numbers that they can use,

:42:52.:42:57.

when flooding does happen. These sorts of things are absolutely

:42:58.:43:00.

superb. And I do hope that local authorities can learn from one

:43:01.:43:03.

another as to the action that they need to take, including the advice

:43:04.:43:09.

that they can give to people now. We are in the winter now. Sadly, some

:43:10.:43:13.

villages may well get flooded between now and the time when summer

:43:14.:43:21.

kicks off. Thank you. Thank you to my friend for allowing me to

:43:22.:43:25.

intervene. We have floods in my area, as I fix it. The hospital,

:43:26.:43:31.

locally, ran an emergency generators. But apparently, from

:43:32.:43:35.

what I could gather, for a state of emergency to be declared, the army

:43:36.:43:40.

came in to help in the end, the Environment Agency had to have, I

:43:41.:43:45.

believe, two separate sources to verify there was a state of

:43:46.:43:48.

emergency. Do you think that it should be once a source that context

:43:49.:43:53.

the Environment Agency to enact with their doesn't get any worse for the

:43:54.:43:57.

army to be called in to rescue patients that need electricity for

:43:58.:43:59.

dialysis and other life-saving treatments? Of course. Common-sense

:44:00.:44:05.

kicking in building it. Once common-sense kicks in, people know

:44:06.:44:12.

when there's an emergency on and why act to it with unnecessary

:44:13.:44:16.

bureaucracy and rules? I do hope lessons can be learned from that. I

:44:17.:44:22.

think proper planning on flood areas is essential. For instance, and I

:44:23.:44:30.

were a lot of sandbags in local authority depot under lock and key.

:44:31.:44:37.

People couldn't get access to it until, eventually, calls went

:44:38.:44:39.

through to the county council and said, openly depot! Eventually be

:44:40.:44:46.

sandbags were released. -- open the depot. It shouldn't be beyond the

:44:47.:44:50.

wit of planning to ensure that sandbags back, irrespective of

:44:51.:44:53.

whether they may be used for somewhere else at another time.

:44:54.:44:57.

They're released immediately to the local community in order that

:44:58.:44:59.

they're able to prevent any further damage that done. In is one of these

:45:00.:45:06.

known not what's where I was having to go into Benedict pars

:45:07.:45:13.

delicatessen to latch onto their Wi-Fi. -- is known as one of these

:45:14.:45:22.

not spots. Using the pub thrown in the Dog Inn because my friends

:45:23.:45:27.

simply wouldn't work. In areas of high susceptibility to flooding, a

:45:28.:45:30.

lot more attention needs to be put into the telecommunications there

:45:31.:45:36.

that cost a bit more money. But it needs to be done in order that

:45:37.:45:39.

people in an emergency, because they've had it before I may have it

:45:40.:45:43.

again, that people are able to use their mobile telephone. Particularly

:45:44.:45:46.

if the flooding has wiped out some of the landlines.

:45:47.:45:52.

I said earlier on about the drainage on the main road that prevented me

:45:53.:46:01.

from getting to the area that I needed. Again, if an area floods

:46:02.:46:06.

from time to time, these certain roads, the Environment Agency, the

:46:07.:46:10.

Local Authorities, the flood authority, needs to look at extra

:46:11.:46:14.

drainage that needs to be put in, so people can get where they need to

:46:15.:46:19.

get to. Mr Deputy Speaker, I will never

:46:20.:46:25.

forget the 26th of December 2015 for as long as I can live. It taught me

:46:26.:46:31.

a lot of things, and most of them were good, thank goodness. On New

:46:32.:46:37.

Year's Eve that night I expected to be in sunnier climes, but I wasn't.

:46:38.:46:46.

And I stood in the square of Whalley with all the local residents as new

:46:47.:46:53.

year rang in. And we all held hands and sang auld lang syne together.

:46:54.:46:58.

The community spirit was alive and well and still is in that particular

:46:59.:47:06.

community. As far as I'm concerned, you know when gongs are handed out,

:47:07.:47:10.

when we look at worthy people to get them, I could give a list. Sadly,

:47:11.:47:16.

from what I remember, none of them have, and that's sad. I think

:47:17.:47:20.

recognition ought to be given in communities up and down the country,

:47:21.:47:24.

where people go that extra mile, when they don't need to but they do,

:47:25.:47:28.

when they help people in their own community because it is the right

:47:29.:47:30.

thing to do. I do hope 12 months on, and the

:47:31.:47:37.

minister listening very carefully to what I've had to say, that she will

:47:38.:47:42.

be able to give us some good news today about the action that the

:47:43.:47:46.

Environment Agency and all the other agencies working together can do to

:47:47.:47:52.

ensure that the misery and torture that so many people have suffered in

:47:53.:47:56.

the past because of flooding, will be a thing of the past.

:47:57.:48:03.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It's a great pleasure to speak in this

:48:04.:48:09.

debate this evening and I do so for two main reasons. The first of which

:48:10.:48:13.

is to pay tribute to my honourable friend. He was my first ever MP, and

:48:14.:48:22.

I remember his election back in the early 90s. I was there in the Ribble

:48:23.:48:29.

Valley on Boxing Day 2015, at my parents house, which is about four

:48:30.:48:37.

miles away from Whalley. I've seen Ribchester flood in the past. We got

:48:38.:48:41.

up Boxing Day, we were supposed to be going out and I looked across the

:48:42.:48:45.

hill and I said, what's that? Because the new river had grown up.

:48:46.:48:52.

I grew up in Lancashire and know what wet weather is but I've never

:48:53.:48:55.

seen anything like it. My Marin friend said, what could I do? What

:48:56.:49:02.

he did was remarkable and my friends and family in the Ribble Valley, and

:49:03.:49:07.

my auntie Pauline, who was with you in the square, people were really

:49:08.:49:13.

touched. He's been a fantastic constituency MP, a fantastic

:49:14.:49:16.

parliamentarian for more years than we know, because he looks very

:49:17.:49:22.

useful... He's done great things and I thank him for bringing this

:49:23.:49:28.

debate. -- he looks very youthful. The river Ribble, the historic

:49:29.:49:32.

border between north and south flows from Yorkshire, and into God 's own

:49:33.:49:41.

County, Lancashire. The flood plain is in my constituency of South

:49:42.:49:46.

Ribble. We share this great river and I, like you, Mr Deputy Speaker,

:49:47.:49:52.

we all had bad flooding on Boxing Day 2015, when storm Eva struck. I

:49:53.:50:04.

think it was more Storm Desmond... But Yorkshire and other parts of the

:50:05.:50:11.

country were affected. I would like to pay tribute, really,

:50:12.:50:17.

to the local groups, because we had flooding in Leyland, where there was

:50:18.:50:25.

work by my constituent Celia and the Leyland flood action group. In

:50:26.:50:32.

Ecclestone, and Gillian Jamieson and other members of the parish council

:50:33.:50:37.

have done sterling work to rebuild the parish hall, which they did back

:50:38.:50:42.

in November. Particularly in Croston, and it was the views of the

:50:43.:50:47.

Chinook flying over Croston, because Croston has three rivers, but there

:50:48.:50:52.

was a bridge at the River Douglas, and the Charnock came to assess. I

:50:53.:50:59.

believe it was actually thrown by one of your constituents, a member

:51:00.:51:02.

of the Tory Air Cadets, of which you are president.

:51:03.:51:07.

Correct. He's not in the RAF, by the way.

:51:08.:51:14.

There are also flooding issues in West Lancashire in my constituency,

:51:15.:51:17.

and I know the minister is very aware of what's happening about the

:51:18.:51:22.

flooding pumps, the villages of Rufford, Banks, which are affected

:51:23.:51:33.

by this. But in relation to the River Ribble, trying to stay on

:51:34.:51:38.

topic, there is concern in South Ribble about the progress of the

:51:39.:51:42.

Preston and South Ribble flood scheme. The Ribble as it leaves

:51:43.:51:50.

urban areas, the last bridge across the Ribble is in my constituency. We

:51:51.:51:54.

are hoping to have another bridge across the Ribble, but at the moment

:51:55.:52:05.

it is in Pemberton. When it leaves the area there is pressed on one

:52:06.:52:08.

side and Pemberton the other. There were flood defences built up in the

:52:09.:52:17.

early 1980s, but they would be, they are not ideal if there were a high

:52:18.:52:25.

tide and rain like we saw on Boxing Day in 2015. I've walked the area

:52:26.:52:30.

many times and walked it in the summer with representatives from the

:52:31.:52:34.

Environment Agency. I know there is funding there, but we are hoping to

:52:35.:52:37.

have it matched by the Department and I would be very grateful if my

:52:38.:52:42.

honourable friend were able to say anything on the progress with that.

:52:43.:52:48.

I want to pay tribute to the Croston flood action group, to the parish

:52:49.:52:52.

council in particular, who manned their own pump. To Cathal McShane

:52:53.:52:57.

and and Pete, who came down to number ten when there was a

:52:58.:53:00.

reception for flood he rose in the spring of last year. I'd like to

:53:01.:53:07.

mention particularly businesses in Croston, were very Brazilian. In

:53:08.:53:11.

fact, I went to Croston on Boxing Day this year. -- who were very

:53:12.:53:15.

resilient. I wanted to go round and see how people were. The publican,

:53:16.:53:24.

John Lilly, from the Wheatsheaf was in. He said things were very

:53:25.:53:29.

difficult but the village really came together, and I think that they

:53:30.:53:33.

have weathered it very well, but I met another constituent who has been

:53:34.:53:39.

badly affected, in terms of not only damage to his property, but to the

:53:40.:53:42.

mental health of his family, as well. This really is, as honourable

:53:43.:53:54.

members know, it doesn't just affect your possessions, but the sense of

:53:55.:53:58.

watching out for every flood warning and thinking, is it going to happen

:53:59.:54:04.

again? I will wind up by saying, we can

:54:05.:54:13.

only do... Flooding is a very complicated issue because rivers are

:54:14.:54:17.

and waterways are very complicated things. There needs to be creativity

:54:18.:54:23.

in how we deal with water upstream. I know what happens in Whalley

:54:24.:54:30.

effects other places. I pay tribute to my honourable friend for the

:54:31.:54:34.

great work he has done on this, for the wonderful champion he is from

:54:35.:54:37.

Ribble Valley and I look forward to the Minister's response.

:54:38.:54:44.

Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to talk in this debate. I

:54:45.:54:49.

want to congratulate my honourable friend for securing this debate on

:54:50.:54:52.

flooding in the Ribble Valley. He has spoken passionately. I think he

:54:53.:54:58.

painted a vivid picture of Boxing Day in 2015 and paid tribute to many

:54:59.:55:05.

of the neighbours in the community. Gillian Derbyshire from the local

:55:06.:55:11.

lions and other business people and local councillors. And indeed

:55:12.:55:16.

strangers. I'm aware of the impact flooding can have on the community.

:55:17.:55:22.

I've supported my own constituents in Suffolk over recent years than

:55:23.:55:25.

just over the weekend we had our own severe flood warnings, where I was

:55:26.:55:30.

able to visit local communities, who have also formed the flood action

:55:31.:55:34.

groups, to which have been referred. I think it is important to pay

:55:35.:55:38.

tribute to those people who have taken charge of actions in their

:55:39.:55:42.

local community, in order to help their friends. This isn't in my

:55:43.:55:47.

speech, and a slight bit of personal disclosure, but I will always

:55:48.:55:49.

particularly welcome the contributions strangers have. In

:55:50.:55:54.

1998I was heading home to Liverpool rather than Lancashire, although

:55:55.:56:00.

historically was in Lancashire, of course. But nevertheless, the point

:56:01.:56:05.

is, I encountered my own flooding trouble, had to climb out of my car

:56:06.:56:08.

which was filling with water, in the middle of nowhere. I knocked on a

:56:09.:56:13.

house and I will always be grateful to the McDermott's who took me in

:56:14.:56:17.

for two days. And then I was able to make my way home, having done that.

:56:18.:56:22.

I'm very conscious of how this can be very frightening for people, and

:56:23.:56:28.

the warm, loving presence of friends and strangers is something that

:56:29.:56:31.

never goes out of one's mind. It is right to point out that the

:56:32.:56:36.

Government continues to play a key role in improving protection to

:56:37.:56:41.

those that flood risk. We are spending ?2.5 billion on flood

:56:42.:56:44.

defence schemes to better protect 300,000 homes by 2021. We have also

:56:45.:56:48.

been increasing maintenance spending in real terms over this Parliament.

:56:49.:56:53.

As the honourable member said, there is a history of flooding in the

:56:54.:57:00.

Ribble Valley, and I note the communities previously affected in

:57:01.:57:04.

his constituency, he spoke extensively about Whalley and

:57:05.:57:10.

Ribchester, among others. It is fair to say that the month of December

:57:11.:57:16.

2015 was the wettest on record, and the highest flows on record were

:57:17.:57:20.

also observed in the River Ribble and River Calder. Temporary flood

:57:21.:57:28.

defences were deployed on in the Ribble Valley constituency he will

:57:29.:57:33.

be aware 432 properties were flooded, with around 2600 right

:57:34.:57:38.

across Lancashire. I am aware that the communities he describes of

:57:39.:57:44.

Whalley and Ribchester were among the worst affected and Billington

:57:45.:57:47.

also flooded from the River Calder for the first time. Thankfully he

:57:48.:57:52.

will be aware other places did not flood on local communities expressed

:57:53.:57:58.

their gratitude for the flood defence work undertaken by the

:57:59.:58:00.

Environment Agency to stop them experiencing flooding at that time.

:58:01.:58:05.

Since that flooding incident the Environment Agency has given advice

:58:06.:58:10.

to 100 residents in the Ribble Valley. As part of the works to

:58:11.:58:15.

repair structures at the bridge, they have removed gravel from the

:58:16.:58:22.

river channel. Writer 2010 the Environment Agency completed flood

:58:23.:58:28.

defence schemes, spending a total of ?1.5 million in those areas. Since

:58:29.:58:35.

2010 the Environment Agency invested more than ?200,000, making

:58:36.:58:38.

properties in Whalley and Ribchester more resilient. Including working

:58:39.:58:42.

closely with the local council, to offer grants to homeowners,

:58:43.:58:49.

including flood doors and ebb recovers. These properties that were

:58:50.:58:53.

flooded were eligible for the 5000 have recovery grants and some of the

:58:54.:58:57.

homes that flooded had not been previously eligible as they had not

:58:58.:59:03.

been recently eligible for flooding. I am grateful for the contribution

:59:04.:59:07.

she is making. Could she also asked the Environment Agency to look again

:59:08.:59:15.

at the Arches by Alan Elliot's house, where there is a lot of silt

:59:16.:59:20.

being built up. The Environment Agency are aware of this. That silt

:59:21.:59:23.

should have been removed so the free flow of the water can more easily

:59:24.:59:28.

pass through. It hasn't been done and I don't know why it's not been

:59:29.:59:32.

done, but it's giving grave concern to people around that area. If it's

:59:33.:59:36.

not done, if the river rises, there could be severe problems.

:59:37.:59:40.

My honourable friend will be aware that I don't know the details of

:59:41.:59:44.

that but he will be pleased to know the Environment Agency manager is in

:59:45.:59:48.

the box today and will have taken careful note of that. A future

:59:49.:59:53.

scheme to protect Whalley from the flooding from the river is in the

:59:54.:59:56.

development stage. It would cost approximately ?1.4 million and

:59:57.:00:01.

considerable work is going on with the Whalley and Billington flood

:00:02.:00:04.

action group and the local community to optimise the design of the scheme

:00:05.:00:07.

and to develop partnership options prior to the bid for funding. I

:00:08.:00:11.

think this is a project he referred to. Currently a review is ongoing

:00:12.:00:15.

flood risks across the River Calder which will provide additional

:00:16.:00:20.

information to measures to look at that. We hope to do a flood risk

:00:21.:00:28.

report in Ribchester this year. It will cost ?4.8 million and work is

:00:29.:00:31.

taking place to develop partnership funding options prior to submitting

:00:32.:00:35.

a bid for funding. Lancashire County Council is also developing a ?2

:00:36.:00:42.

million scheme to address surface water flooding in Whalley and

:00:43.:00:43.

Billington. We change the funding policy to give

:00:44.:01:04.

every scheme that has a positive benefit cost ratio a channel to

:01:05.:01:09.

secure some grant funding, rather than the old system of all or

:01:10.:01:14.

nothing. My honourable friend has referred to planning, and he should

:01:15.:01:23.

be aware that the national MPPF is very specific in regards to planning

:01:24.:01:27.

in flood areas. And he should be aware, also, that the Environment

:01:28.:01:34.

Agency's advice has been accepted in over 98% of all applications. And I

:01:35.:01:37.

have looked carefully at the bonds that were rejected by local

:01:38.:01:42.

councils, and that information is publicly available. He specifically

:01:43.:01:47.

referred to Redrow Developments, a housing development that he is

:01:48.:01:52.

concerned that housing development in the area is designed to reduce

:01:53.:01:57.

flood risk. As he has indicated, I would expect the issue to be dealt

:01:58.:02:05.

with robust day. The Environment Agency doesn't have the powers, but

:02:06.:02:11.

if there was more that my honourable friend 's can do, then we will do

:02:12.:02:15.

that. I will just say on The Record it is the second time today that

:02:16.:02:23.

Redrow has been raised with me as a developer not particularly

:02:24.:02:26.

fulfilling their conditions. Or in this case, fulfilling a condition

:02:27.:02:30.

that simply doesn't work. So I will certainly be following up with my

:02:31.:02:32.

honourable friends in planning on that matter. In terms of drainage,

:02:33.:02:43.

the Environment Agency lead on flood risk is associated with culverts.

:02:44.:02:49.

When they are present, they will be inspected. Authorities in Lancashire

:02:50.:02:58.

lead the flood risk associated. Within the village of Walley, the

:02:59.:03:05.

county council has been investigating the issue of the

:03:06.:03:08.

culverts which carries water underneath King Street which you

:03:09.:03:12.

refer to. It has surcharged in the past and lead to flooding most

:03:13.:03:17.

recently on the 21st of November. For any work deemed necessary to the

:03:18.:03:22.

culverts and infrastructure, bids for Defra structure will be

:03:23.:03:24.

submitted via the Environment Agency. My honourable friend also

:03:25.:03:31.

spoke eloquently on behalf of her constituents and I thought it might

:03:32.:03:34.

be worth sharing where we are in the Preston and South Ribble flood

:03:35.:03:36.

alleviation scheme, to which she referred. At the moment, the cost

:03:37.:03:40.

for this is about ?32 million and it would better protect many homes. It

:03:41.:03:49.

would also decrease flood risk at Bolton in the Vale. And further work

:03:50.:03:51.

is currently ongoing to assess whether the scheme could be extended

:03:52.:03:58.

to benefit high water. As it stands, the scheme benefits from 74 million

:03:59.:04:04.

pounds in government aim and requires more. There are many local

:04:05.:04:10.

businesses in the catchment area that will benefit the scheme. I

:04:11.:04:13.

think if there's a way that the honourable members may be in a

:04:14.:04:17.

position to assist with attaining further partnership funding, it

:04:18.:04:20.

would go a long way to securing the viability of the scheme. In this, I

:04:21.:04:28.

would say that I understand that there has been heavy involvement to

:04:29.:04:34.

secure programmes for funding and Burley and Lancashire. I would work

:04:35.:04:37.

my honourable friend Stu work together to consider potential

:04:38.:04:41.

forward movement. It's worth working out what we're doing on a broader

:04:42.:04:45.

level to be better prepared this winter for whatever arises. No

:04:46.:04:49.

government can promise that whatever -- we will never be flooded again.

:04:50.:04:53.

But we can learn and acting that is what would it would be national

:04:54.:04:58.

flood resilience review. If you are undertaking to discover the country

:04:59.:05:00.

can be better protected from flooding and extreme weather

:05:01.:05:02.

results. -- weather events. Considerable progress has been made.

:05:03.:05:08.

We invested in Mobile flood defences which now means the Environment

:05:09.:05:12.

Agency has 25 miles of new temporary defensive located across seven key

:05:13.:05:16.

areas. Compared to just five miles available last year. There are half

:05:17.:05:22.

a million sandbags and as the Prime Minister announced a 1200 troops on

:05:23.:05:25.

stand-by if councils needed their house. -- needed the help. In all

:05:26.:05:29.

three cases they were deployed at the weekend. The Environment Agency

:05:30.:05:36.

has taken a robust assessment of the practical implications to places

:05:37.:05:40.

that may need temporary barriers, including ensuring that they do not

:05:41.:05:42.

make flooding worse elsewhere. There are plans in place to use temporary

:05:43.:05:47.

barristers at Rochester and Billington, but unfortunately these

:05:48.:05:50.

are not fulfilled Walley despite being used in 2015. Infrastructure

:05:51.:05:57.

provided has been reviewing the resilience of key assets for

:05:58.:06:02.

communities of 25,000 people and above. They've been identifying

:06:03.:06:05.

where they can also protect these assets with temporary defences this

:06:06.:06:09.

winter, where long-term solutions are implemented. I been leading the

:06:10.:06:12.

debris of weekly ministerial phone calls to ensure that we are in a

:06:13.:06:17.

good place and in particular my honourable friend referred to mobile

:06:18.:06:20.

phones. That's been a key part of ensuring that we are more resilient.

:06:21.:06:24.

This means the country have been better protected this winter. Of

:06:25.:06:29.

course, it's not over yet. Services to our communities will be more

:06:30.:06:31.

resilient to flood events. The next age of the review will focus on

:06:32.:06:36.

surface water flooding which are significant, particularly in cities

:06:37.:06:38.

and urban areas. It will involve much collaboration between

:06:39.:06:44.

authorities and stakeholders with a keen interest in managing this risk.

:06:45.:06:47.

We've also worked in the private sector to develop a new property

:06:48.:06:50.

flood resilient action plan and I would like to thank Peter Bonfield

:06:51.:06:54.

for leading that work. It demonstrates some straightforward

:06:55.:06:56.

measures that homeowners and business owners can take to

:06:57.:06:59.

resilient their property to flooding, as well as enable them to

:07:00.:07:03.

get back in four more quickly if unfortunately there flooded. These

:07:04.:07:06.

could be simple measures like in-built covers to more substantial

:07:07.:07:10.

works like installing pumps, having solid floors or rewiring is a plug

:07:11.:07:15.

sockets are higher up the ball. In regards to assurance, he may be

:07:16.:07:19.

point about the presents, quotes and the issues or availability of

:07:20.:07:24.

assessors. And also the challenge about the risk and passed on and not

:07:25.:07:29.

being able to get to the end. I will raise these issues and I will also

:07:30.:07:32.

share some of this with my honourable friends as they are

:07:33.:07:35.

primarily responsible for the recovery. With regards to Flood Re

:07:36.:07:42.

Scheme, I would like to thank my honourable friend. And for those at

:07:43.:07:49.

high risk, I recognise the matter is very important. Flood Re Scheme is

:07:50.:07:55.

also underway. It's providing relief for thousands of Passover- risk you

:07:56.:07:59.

can now access affordable insurance. I recognise that will bring

:08:00.:08:01.

practical and emotional comfort to many. 50 insurance companies, over

:08:02.:08:08.

90% of the market coming offer access to Flood Re Scheme and 53,000

:08:09.:08:11.

households benefited in the first six months. It's important to stress

:08:12.:08:15.

that this is a project that is time-limited. It's there for 25

:08:16.:08:21.

years and it is funded, in effect, by every other household paying

:08:22.:08:26.

towards that and the principle of taxation exist with us that we

:08:27.:08:31.

support our community. In regard to business, just last month the

:08:32.:08:34.

British insurers brokers Association launched a project designed to help

:08:35.:08:41.

high flood risk properties access affordable insurance. Using postcode

:08:42.:08:45.

data and recognising the benefit of resilience measures it should with a

:08:46.:08:50.

welcome solution to many businesses. This has previously been raised as

:08:51.:08:53.

an issue. I want to give this a chance to work, but I do welcome

:08:54.:08:58.

evidence to see if it is working. As I pointed out, on the basis of Flood

:08:59.:09:02.

Re Scheme, there is a significant principle that we have that taxation

:09:03.:09:06.

helps. If we were to move to the stage where we were asking

:09:07.:09:10.

businesses to start adding insurance to their premiums, in order to help

:09:11.:09:13.

businesses in other parts of the country, that would be unprecedented

:09:14.:09:17.

in mutual business support. I think it would take a lot of evidence in

:09:18.:09:20.

order to say that was the next necessary stop. But ironically to

:09:21.:09:25.

the evidence and I want to hear from people. Should that prove to be a

:09:26.:09:29.

need for additional action, I remain open. -- but I am open to the

:09:30.:09:34.

evidence. My friend referred to the European Union and I want to draw

:09:35.:09:38.

his attention to a written statement that was made this Monday where my

:09:39.:09:45.

honourable friend laid out in quite considerable detail what has

:09:46.:09:48.

happened about that. All I will say is that ultimately we were going to

:09:49.:09:53.

get a payment of ?50 million. We have now had to offset that by

:09:54.:09:58.

paying back ?14.5 million due to an application made in 2007 which turns

:09:59.:10:05.

out the expenditure was ineligible. It looks like we will end up by

:10:06.:10:10.

about half ?1 million, I will leave it to him to read the written

:10:11.:10:14.

statement in detail to explain that further. My honourable friend for

:10:15.:10:18.

Morecambe wanted to give me more details on some of the issues that

:10:19.:10:22.

he raises that I can look into it. You should be aware that the ?9.7

:10:23.:10:28.

million allocated to Morecambe, due to be completed by 2019 and will

:10:29.:10:33.

protect many properties, in terms of my honourable friend for Mid Sussex

:10:34.:10:36.

you had already referred to building issues, and I agree that we need to

:10:37.:10:42.

follow up on those. Then, I will involve my honourable friends on

:10:43.:10:48.

that matter. It's been ages for to consider the particular situation in

:10:49.:10:51.

this very special part of Lancashire. I was born in the County

:10:52.:10:54.

of Lancashire and it will always be in my heart. I hope I been able to

:10:55.:10:59.

show my honourable friend that there are plans underway to try and

:11:00.:11:02.

address these funding issues. We've also seen the benefit of the

:11:03.:11:06.

additional investment, including the use of the mobile barriers. I have

:11:07.:11:10.

the House will join me in thanking the Environment Agency, the

:11:11.:11:14.

emergency services, and many volunteers involved in responding to

:11:15.:11:17.

the east coast tidal surge this weekend. -- tidal surge. I'm sure

:11:18.:11:22.

that we are relieved that -- we are grateful to the work ensuring the

:11:23.:11:28.

potential impacts were minimised. The Environment Agency will continue

:11:29.:11:31.

to grow my honourable friend for the Ribble Valley work collaboratively

:11:32.:11:37.

to help deliver projects locally. I assure you and the House that I will

:11:38.:11:41.

listen to all the comments made here today and the Government will

:11:42.:11:44.

continue to try and assure that we all of us protected from flooding

:11:45.:11:50.

possible. The question is this house do now adjourned. As many of that

:11:51.:11:57.

opinions they aye. The ayes have it. Order, order.

:11:58.:12:08.

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including (estimated timings): 1240-1310 Urgent Question on human rights in Myanmar; 1310-1320 Ten Minute Rule Bill; 1320-1900 General debate on exiting the EU and security, law enforcement and criminal justice.


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