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THE SPEAKER: Order. Urgent question, Paul Scully. | :00:00. | :00:14. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker, to ask if I can ask the Minster, if he can make | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
a statement on human rights in Burma. THE SPEAKER: Minster from the | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
Foreign Office. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :00:23. | :00:27. | |
Mr Speaker, I know that you your Sevacare very deeply about the | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
situation in -- that you yourself care deeply about the situation in | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
Burma. I'm grateful to my honourable friend for raising this matter in | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
the House. He knows Burma very well and has close family connections | :00:43. | :00:48. | |
there. We have been deeply concerned about the flare up of violence since | :00:49. | :00:55. | |
the attack by unknown assailants, presumed to be militants on 9th | :00:56. | :00:58. | |
October. Whilst we condemned the attack, and recognise the need for | :00:59. | :01:03. | |
security forces to carry out security operations to route out the | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
perpetrators we remain concerned about the conduct of the Army in | :01:08. | :01:11. | |
response. Although restrictions on media, diplomatic and humanitarian | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
access make the facts difficult to ascertain, we have been concerned by | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
numerous reports alleging widespread human rights violations in the | :01:20. | :01:22. | |
security response. Mr Speaker n response to the escalating violence, | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
British ministers have directly lobbied Burmese ministers, the | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
Minister of State for Commonwealth affairs raised the issue with a | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
Minister of Defence when she visited Burma in November last year. | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
Specifically she called for the full and immediate resumption of aid and | :01:39. | :01:42. | |
called for an investigation into allegations of human rights' abuses. | :01:43. | :01:48. | |
I too, repeated those calls with the minister for construction, when he | :01:49. | :01:50. | |
visited the UK in November last year. The Government of Burma has | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
now committed to investigating the 9th October attacks, restoring human | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
rights' access and investigating allegations of human rights abuses. | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
However, in practice, much of the aid is still blocked by local | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
authorities, reporting the military, especially in the area, where | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
security operations continue. We will continue to monitor the | :02:10. | :02:15. | |
situation closely. Turning to the conflict in other areas, we are | :02:16. | :02:18. | |
concerned by the recent escalation of conflict in those two states. | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
This, too, has led to allegations of civilian casualties, widespread | :02:25. | :02:27. | |
displacement of civilians and human rights abuses. We also raised | :02:28. | :02:32. | |
concerns on the violence in north-east Burma directly with | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
Burmese ministers, as I said, we continue to monitor the situation | :02:36. | :02:37. | |
closely and I can tell the House that my right honourable friend, the | :02:38. | :02:43. | |
Foreign Secretary l visit Burma very soon and reiterate our concerns | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
across these issues Thank you, Mr Speaker and thank you to the | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
minister for that response. The first question I asked in this House | :02:50. | :02:56. | |
was about the situation faced by the community there, the Rohinga | :02:57. | :02:59. | |
community. It is frustrating that I return to the subject, following a | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
number of worrying reports of the kind. The last two, of which | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
reportedly involved air strikes and the use of Hovery oar tillry. Since | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
then, a remarkable election victory has taken place. Does the minister | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
agree with me, that although she has a difficult it is a income keeping | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
the Government together, while there is such a huge influence by the | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
ministry. We friends, such as the UK should continue to raise | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
humanitarian issues while so many suffer because of their faith? | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
Tomorrow, foreign ministers of the organisation for Islamic | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
cooperation, an inter-governmental God body of 57 states will meet to | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
discuss the situation there. Will the minister join me and more than | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
40, civil society organisations who have today called for a truly | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
independent, international investigation in a situation in the | :03:50. | :03:56. | |
state, where state-sponsored attacks on the Rohinga Muslims have | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
escalated. It is difficult to get accurate information for what really | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
is happening in the state. So in order to get to the truth, beyond | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
false reports, will he call for full access to indobservers and | :04:10. | :04:12. | |
journalists to villagers and displacement catches? . -- camps. | :04:13. | :04:19. | |
Elsewhere I'm informed that the United Nations special radioer pore | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
tour on human rights there who has been on a 12-play monitorer mission | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
has been denied access to the Government to conflicting areas of | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
the state. Will the minister agree with me that she should be allowed | :04:32. | :04:36. | |
to do her job and bring such issues into the open and finally, will the | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
Foreign Secretary, when he visits Boyer a McThis weekend, raise the | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
situation -- visits Burma this weekend, raise the situation and | :04:47. | :04:51. | |
also with Burmese MPs and the Speaker of the House when they | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
visit, the Burmese delegation visits the UK next week and can he also | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
raise the issue with Bangladesh Government, as well, to see what | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
more can be done on the border with Bangladesh, on a humanitarian | :05:03. | :05:05. | |
response for Rohingas that have been We're deeply concerned at what is | :05:06. | :05:20. | |
happening, and it is difficult to get access to verify the facts. Like | :05:21. | :05:26. | |
him, we are extremely concerned by the violations, the human rights | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
violations reported, and the security response itself. He asked | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
about UK support for an international commission, I assume a | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
UN type commission. A UN led commission of enquiry can be in one | :05:42. | :05:47. | |
of three ways, by the Secretary General, by the Security Council or | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
the human rights Council. Establishing this would require | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
broad international support, which we assessed is not exist in the | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
current international environment. He also asked about the visit, I | :05:59. | :06:05. | |
very much welcome the visit of the UN special repertoire, I'm aware of | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
the fact that she is currently in Burma, and for many years we have | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
supported the annual resolution of the human rights Council that | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
mandates her role. We very much hope that the authorities in Burma will | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
give her full and unimpeded access so she can conduct an assessment. I | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
look forward to reading her report. He has talked about the overall | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
peace process and the aid that we're particularly providing. I can | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
confirm that we are providing aid to refugees, not just to those in the | :06:43. | :06:46. | |
area but also in Bangladesh. I have urged the Bangladeshis meetings I | :06:47. | :06:49. | |
have had, due to the point that we should not have refugees return to a | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
situation where they would face harm. Finally, he made in terms of | :06:54. | :07:01. | |
the Foreign Secretary's visit. The Foreign Secretary will be putting | :07:02. | :07:05. | |
the case from a UK perspective on humanitarian issues strongly, and as | :07:06. | :07:13. | |
far as I'm aware, his intention is to meet the chief of the military | :07:14. | :07:19. | |
and the country's leader. Thank you for granting this urgent question, | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
and I congratulate the honourable member for securing it. All of us | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
including many in this house who have campaigned for years for | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
democracy and an to repression in Myanmar, it is troubling to see | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
evidence that for the progress that is being made, the suppression of | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
the majority Myanmar has been replaced in far too many patients | :07:39. | :07:46. | |
with the -- too many cases with the persecution of minorities. It was | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
shocking to hear of the recent disappearance of Kachin Baptist | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
leaders, who have disappeared. It is incumbent on the government and the | :07:57. | :08:01. | |
international community as a whole, to press the Myanmar authorities to | :08:02. | :08:04. | |
provide information on their whereabouts and secure their | :08:05. | :08:07. | |
immediate freedom. Also deeply concerned about the continuing | :08:08. | :08:11. | |
humanitarian crisis, particularly the recent reports from the United | :08:12. | :08:18. | |
nations and Human Rights Watch, stating that a raft of human rights | :08:19. | :08:24. | |
abuses have taken place including torture, rape and sexual assault. | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
Summary executions and the destruction of mosques and homes. | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
Upholding human rights should be the driving force of our foreign policy, | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
and recall on the government to see Britain's stand up for the rights | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
and freedoms that all human beings are entitled to, and raises concerns | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
as a matter of urgency for the authorities in Myanmar, including | :08:45. | :08:50. | |
the persecution that people are suffering, and a needle for | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
humanitarian access to all areas. I hope the Minister can tell us today | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
-- the need for. Particularly around the access for the UN reported | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
reporter, and how he's planning to make sure that the rights of its | :09:06. | :09:13. | |
people are protected. I think the honourable lady for those comments. | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
Having discussed the situation here previously, I know she cares very | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
deeply about the humanitarian issues in Burma, and I think there is | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
consensus across the house on these matters, Mr Speaker. She raised the | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
issue of the pastors. Many Christians live in areas where there | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
is active conflict, notably in that area. We are of course deeply | :09:38. | :09:41. | |
concerned, specifically by the disappearance of a two pastors, | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
Dumdaw Nawng Lat and Langjaw Gam Seng. And we do believe that there | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
is deep concern about their welfare, and as she noted, they disappeared | :09:55. | :09:59. | |
on Christmas Eve. Allegedly after talking to journalists, taking | :10:00. | :10:02. | |
journalists to see a recently bombed church. We upstage the urge, as does | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
she, the government of Burma to investigate the case immediately and | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
release them. She talked about what the UK Government is doing in terms | :10:13. | :10:16. | |
of lobbying. I noted that the Foreign Secretary will be in Burma | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
soon, he will of course make strong representations on behalf of the UK | :10:22. | :10:24. | |
Government. Apart from representations that I and other | :10:25. | :10:27. | |
Foreign Office ministers have made, could I also add that our ambassador | :10:28. | :10:34. | |
has visited in recent months, and lobbied five separate Burmese | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
ministers on this issue, urging restraint in terms of the security | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
response. Finally, she talked about humanitarian aid, as she will know | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
the UK Government is doing an enormous amount in terms of | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
providing aid in this troubled area. And certainly in terms of a | :10:53. | :11:03. | |
particular error, since 2012 we have provided over ?23 million in him out | :11:04. | :11:08. | |
and assistance -- that particular area, including sanitation and | :11:09. | :11:15. | |
nutrition for several hundred thousand people. When the Foreign | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
Secretary travels to Burma, he will know doubt wish to discuss with | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
leaders the role of, whether it is worthwhile as continuing running | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
some courses for them and the efficacy of those courses, and also | :11:29. | :11:30. | |
whether or not they're continuing to block aid going into some of these | :11:31. | :11:35. | |
errors. Can I urge my honourable friend to intern at the Foreign | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
Secretary that when he does go there, the Foreign Secretary travel | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
to that area to see for himself that situation on the ground, talk to' | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
and come back to his house and updaters as to whether there is now | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
real evidence that there are outside forces stirring up the Rohinga now | :11:54. | :12:01. | |
part of Burma. I think my honourable friend for those comments, and I | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
know that he an expert this area, having been Minister for this part | :12:06. | :12:08. | |
of the world when he is at the Foreign Office. In terms of the | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
Foreign Secretary's visit, as I said, I have set out the key | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
individuals that the Foreign Secretary plans to meet, and clearly | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
we all look forward to his response when he returns to this house. -- | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
this House. He talked about the work we may be doing with the military. | :12:30. | :12:34. | |
In terms of training. Can I make clear that any training we undertake | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
has nothing to do with combat training, it is to do with the | :12:38. | :12:43. | |
humanitarian, English-language, and our assessment is that this is a | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
worthwhile thing to be doing in terms of building those links. As he | :12:47. | :12:58. | |
knows full well, the leader is of course in a position in government, | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
but the Army has a role to play and clearly it is the Army acting in | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
these areas whether I humanitarian issues. I congratulate the | :13:10. | :13:16. | |
honourable member for achieving the support and emergency question. The | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
Minister has expressed concern about the disappearance of the two Baptist | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
leaders who apparently forcibly disappeared over Christmas, and also | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
called for unfettered access for the United Nations special envoy. Can he | :13:32. | :13:39. | |
performance -- confirm that specifically these have already been | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
raised with the Burmese ambassador in London, and secondly that the | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
Foreign Secretary will both raise the specific matters in the talks is | :13:46. | :13:53. | |
having in Burma in the next week? Lastly, the minister rather | :13:54. | :13:56. | |
sidestepped the question of action in the UN by saying that the | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
government's opinion wasn't -- was that there wasn't a sufficient | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
consensus at the present time to take forward action. Can he go | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
further than that? When the special reporter returns to the UN and | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
reports, will be undertake on behalf of the government to use every | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
possible effort to build a consensus that can build an urgent and | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
independent United Nations enquiry, a commission which will be the | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
result of the special reporter's visit? Will the government committee | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
trying to build that consensus is exposed -- as opposed to remarking | :14:34. | :14:39. | |
that it doesn't exist? Mr Speaker, he talks about representations that | :14:40. | :14:42. | |
UK Government is and has been making to the Burmese government. As I | :14:43. | :14:47. | |
noted, we have made representations both at ministerial level and | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
ambassador level. He talks about the representations at the Foreign | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
Secretary will make. Clearly, I will ensure and am sure he will be aware | :14:56. | :15:01. | |
of what is said and this house, but I know that the Foreign Secretary | :15:02. | :15:04. | |
cares deeply about Burma, and the fact that he's going out there very | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
soon should give the gentleman a great deal of comfort. He talks | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
about the UN, of course I stated position in terms of UN. We support | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
the UN special reporter, and specifically in terms of the human | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
rights Council, as you know that is again an area where we have been | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
supported, but this is about building multilateral support for | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
actions, and that is where we seek to work together with other | :15:35. | :15:41. | |
partners. Years ago, I organised a debate from Westminster Hall about | :15:42. | :15:50. | |
the persecution of people, a long-standing very serious | :15:51. | :15:54. | |
situation. These people gave us loyalty during the Second World War, | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
and have been repaid with persecution ever since. I wonder | :15:58. | :16:01. | |
what further steps the government can raise about this persecution and | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
ensure their human rights are protected? Mr Speaker, we all care | :16:05. | :16:12. | |
very deeply about human rights wherever they may be affected. And | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
of course, if my right honourable friend wants to write to me, I'll be | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
very happy to take up that specific issue. I make the general point that | :16:24. | :16:27. | |
human rights absolutely happens to -- matters to this house, government | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
and the British people, and that'll be at the forefront everything this | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
office does. Undoubtedly there is reason for concern at the military | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
crackdown on the Rohinga Muslim minority. I understand it has been | :16:43. | :16:49. | |
made clear that she welcomes the international community's support | :16:50. | :16:53. | |
and efforts in seeking peace and stability. And building better | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
relations with communities. I hope that the Foreign Secretary will be | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
focusing on that on his visit and also I wonder what... She's on her | :17:06. | :17:14. | |
fifth information gathering visit, is the Foreign Secretary intending | :17:15. | :17:26. | |
to speak with the special reporter? With regard to the Foreign Secretary | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
speaking to her, I will of course make sure that the Foreign Secretary | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
is aware of that request that she has made. But in terms of our | :17:36. | :17:44. | |
ongoing dialogue, she will know that the advisory commission led by Kofi | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
Anand was put in place last year, and they are due to reduce a report | :17:49. | :17:57. | |
this year. -- due to produce. I have been in conversation with Kofi | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
Anand, we have had a number of conversations about the ongoing | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
work. In terms of what we do, in terms of engaging with the | :18:05. | :18:06. | |
international community and others in Burma, I hope she will appreciate | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
that this is a very clear example of an engagement. | :18:11. | :18:25. | |
Does my honourable friend gentlemen the unwelcome radicalisation of the | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
Rohingya was only a question of time. That time was short and needs | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
to be treated appropriately with a sense of urgency. | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
Mr Speaker, we, of course, bring a sense of urgency to all the work we | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
try and do, in relation to human rights. At the end of the day, | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
though, this is a process which has sadly been ongoing for some time, I | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
think this is a question of continuing to work together with | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
international partners and engineers and others in Burma itself and | :18:58. | :18:59. | |
continuing to make those representations. As I said, the | :19:00. | :19:04. | |
Foreign Secretary hopes to meet with the chief of the army when he is in | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
Burma and hopefully will have an opportunity to make our points very | :19:10. | :19:16. | |
clear in that case. I welcome the minister's indication | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
in respect of the Foreign Secretary's visit. Will the Foreign | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
Secretary make it clear when he is in Burma that the interests of this | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
House doesn't just extend to seeing continued transition in rule but to | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
seeing a real transformation in temples rights and the best way for | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
that to begin is credible investigation at an international | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
level, with reliable adherence to any robust recommendations and | :19:40. | :19:41. | |
findings that that investigation brings. Well, yes, Mr speaker, in | :19:42. | :19:52. | |
terms of the of the investigation, I noted the Commission that has been | :19:53. | :19:55. | |
established and led by Kofi Annan will hopefully come forward and set | :19:56. | :20:00. | |
out very clearly their thoughts, as an independent commission, and it is | :20:01. | :20:12. | |
one that we support. Can I talk about thetragedy last week, where | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
4,000 people fled for their lives, particularly women and children who | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
had been moved on before and need unfetterred access to humanitarian | :20:21. | :20:24. | |
aid but particularly again draw attention to the two bapist pastors | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
that surely, they must do all they can, with the UN, to get the | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
information that family members need and not to accept apparently the | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
approved response of "enforced disappearance" which is in contrary | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
to all international human rights. I know my great friend is a great | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
champion of human rights, particularly those of minorities | :20:48. | :20:50. | |
around the world and he puts his point eloquently in terms of the | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
pastors. We'll continue to make representation in terms of specific | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
aid, I did mention that the UK has provided this ?18 million in | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
essential humanitarian and health care systems and that, of course has | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
been in Chachin and northern states as well over the past four years. | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
Could the minister, confirm what discussions he and his department | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
have had with other governments regarding getting medical assistance | :21:21. | :21:24. | |
into the area and if so, could you update on that, please? Mr Speaker, | :21:25. | :21:30. | |
we seek to work, firstly, in terms of the discussions that we have had, | :21:31. | :21:36. | |
with other governments, our ambassador, of course has | :21:37. | :21:39. | |
discussions locally in Burma with our counterparts and in terms of the | :21:40. | :21:42. | |
support that we are getting, I talked about some of the numbers in | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
terms of the amount of money we are spending but also in terms of what | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
that money is being spent on, and of course we seek to work with NGOs and | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
indeed others, on the ground, to make sure that funds are getting | :21:57. | :22:01. | |
through, where they are needed, in these troubled areas. | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm sure the minister will agree with me that the | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
gross in seeing improved human rights has been painfully slow in | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
Burma since the election that we hoped to bring far more, | :22:17. | :22:18. | |
particularly with the flawed constitution that still expects. I | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
welcome the Foreign Secretary's visit but can he update House in | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
terms of what engagement we are having with regional partners to | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
build the consensus we need fourth action through the UN? With, Mr | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
Speaker, as I've said on a number of occasions already, we discussed | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
these matters with a range of actors. Of course, international | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
partners but as I said, right now, it is the Kofi Annan commission, the | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
independent Commission which is leading work in this area, and we | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
will continue to have a dialogue with Mr Annan, and look forward to | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
his report. Thank you, Mr Speaker, can I join | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
the minister in paying tribute to your interest and work on behalf of | :23:03. | :23:08. | |
the Burmese people over many years and we all welcome Burma moving out | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
of the long dark years of military dictatorship. But we hopped they put | :23:13. | :23:16. | |
behind them communal and religious conflict as well. So will the | :23:17. | :23:20. | |
minister make very clear to the Burmese authorities that their | :23:21. | :23:23. | |
welcome reentry into the international community will not be | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
helped if they fail to protect minorities and particularly the | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
Rohingya community? Mr Speaker, the right honourable gentleman, of | :23:35. | :23:37. | |
course makes a number of very important points. Can I just say to | :23:38. | :23:43. | |
him that firstly, in terms of the work that is going on, and in terms | :23:44. | :23:49. | |
of what has happened since the election, he will be aware that the | :23:50. | :23:54. | |
new Burmese Government released 300 political prisoners and they did | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
begin the abolition of laws and initiated the peace talks I talked | :24:01. | :24:04. | |
about and revised the committee led by Kofi Annan. I think we have to | :24:05. | :24:10. | |
give a huch amount of credit for Aung San Suu Kyi for the work she | :24:11. | :24:14. | |
has done in he had looking Burma. I agree with him, we need to keep | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
pressing on humanitarian issues and press so the rights of minorities | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
are respected but as he will know, the military does remain heavily | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
involved in Burmese politics and they wrote the 2008 constitution | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
which grants them 25% of seats in Parliament, unelected. | :24:32. | :24:36. | |
Thank you Mr Speaker, the minister earlier said with regards to having | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
an independent UN investigation, into this matter, initially there | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
needs to be a consensus, then the minister said we will work together | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
with others for a consensus but account minister go a step further | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
to the answer he gave to the right how many for Gordon to rather rather | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
than working with others, the UK will lead the way in building that | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
consensus as a permanent members of the United Nations Security Council? | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
Mr Speaker, can I give a specific example in terms of the work we are | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
doing and supporting in terms. U in. There are a number of UN mechanisms | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
already in place, including, as I said earlier the human rights | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
council resolution which we support. This mandates the role of the UN | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
Special Envoy on Burma who is presenting visiting and we look | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
forward to her report. And as I have said already, we call for her to | :25:27. | :25:34. | |
have a full and unfetterred access so she can carry on her work? Given | :25:35. | :25:39. | |
the range of access issues that UN staff and missions have had in | :25:40. | :25:43. | |
recent times, can I ask the minister what discussions the foreign and | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
common wealth office have had with their counterparts in the Security | :25:47. | :25:48. | |
Council to ensure that UN staff are given full and proper access to | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
areas of concern, wherever in the world they may be? Mr Speaker, we | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
discuss these issues in terms of access to humanitarian rights, with | :25:59. | :26:02. | |
count parts, both of course in the UN but on a more by lateral basis as | :26:03. | :26:06. | |
well. Can I give her the assurance that when it comes to these issues, | :26:07. | :26:10. | |
we do keep them at the forefront and we'll continue to make the | :26:11. | :26:14. | |
representations of the type she's asking for. Mr Speaker, Parliament | :26:15. | :26:19. | |
was rightly moved by the House arrest of a single exceptional lady, | :26:20. | :26:23. | |
but as it hasn't been mentioned in this urgent question, the situation | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
of the Rohingya people, hundreds are being attacked, many are being | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
murdered. Their villages are being systematically burnt or destroyed. | :26:33. | :26:36. | |
Many are being sold into slavery with the complicity of Burmese | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
authorities. The very authorities of which treat the Rohingya as a | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
non-people. Now, my honourable friend, the minister, has avoided | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
the challenge from the right honourable member for Gordon and my | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
honourable friend the member for Gillingham that it is not sufficient | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
for the Government to cooperate, the Government needs to lead UN support, | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
if these reports are true. So, for the third time, I ask the minister | :27:03. | :27:08. | |
-- if these reports are true, if the Foreign Secretary comes back from | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
Burma, validating all that has been said, will he, will the Government | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
take leadership of the United Nations to make sure that there is | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
broad support and a resolution to follow? Minister? Mr Speaker, I pray | :27:20. | :27:29. | |
forgiveness if I have given the impression I'm dodging the | :27:30. | :27:31. | |
questions. That has not been my intention at all. The point that I | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
have been speaking is we have to work together with partners to | :27:36. | :27:38. | |
achieve an outcome and that's what we speak to do in this particular | :27:39. | :27:41. | |
case. We continue to do that, I have given that assurance. | :27:42. | :27:46. | |
Mr Speaker, my honourable friend, the member for West Ham and I have | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
been approached by constituents who went to provide help directly to are | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
hingia communities who need it, both in Burma and Bangladesh. He talked | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
about access for NGOs, what routes are currently open for delivering | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
help where it is needed and what advice can he give to those who do | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
want to help people who are suffering such extreme problems at | :28:09. | :28:13. | |
the moment? Mr Speaker, I thank the right honourable gentleman for that | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
particular question. It is the case that this is a very troubled area. | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
And the humanitarian access that has been get through has also been quite | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
limited in some of these areas, what I would say to him if outside this | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
house we can have a discussion on specifics I will be happy to see | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
whether we can take thisser matter forward. | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
In response for a parliamentary committee, the Foreign Office has | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
revealed they have pent ?300,000 and more on training the Burmese army. | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
Wouldn't that be better spent on exposing and verifying human rights' | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
violations? Mr Speaker, I know this question has come up before, but can | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
I confirm once again to the honourable gentleman, that the MoD | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
does not provide combat training, as I said earlier, what we are doing is | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
providing educational training to the Burmese military in the form of | :29:11. | :29:13. | |
programmes delivered by the defence academy of the UK on the role of the | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
military in a democracy, in terms of leadership and English language | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
training and we really do belief this is a useful thing to do in | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
terms of engaging the next generation of army in Burma. | :29:27. | :29:33. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Like other members, I have been contacted by | :29:34. | :29:37. | |
constituents who are deeply concerned by the treatment of the ro | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
hingia community, often described as the world's most persecuted | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
religious minority. What they struggling to understand is why | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
having had years of this persecution taking place the brutality | :29:51. | :29:53. | |
continues. The minister talks about the importance of building consensus | :29:54. | :29:58. | |
within the United Nations, could he perhaps elaborate on what the | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
barriers to consensus are and in particular, what our diplomatic | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
efforts can do, with partners around the world, to break down the | :30:07. | :30:14. | |
barriers? Mr Speaker, I think it is the case that successive governments | :30:15. | :30:21. | |
here raised many issues which are long standing across the world when | :30:22. | :30:25. | |
it comes to humanitarian and other issues. Of course this is another | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
one we'll continue to do. I go back to the point I made earlier. At the | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
end of the day this is about engagement, also will Burma, | :30:35. | :30:36. | |
particularly with the Armed Forces and Armed Forces and I said the | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
Foreign Secretary will hope to meet the army chiefs. What I think we can | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
do is provide the humanitarian support, provide support to the | :30:45. | :30:50. | |
elected Government and continue to have those conversations, in Burma | :30:51. | :30:54. | |
itself, and also through our multilateral partners to make sure | :30:55. | :30:57. | |
we keep this at the forefront, not just internationally but also in | :30:58. | :30:59. | |
Burma. Can I commend you for the interest | :31:00. | :31:07. | |
in this subject and bring it to the forefront of our man's everyday -- | :31:08. | :31:13. | |
our minds. In the last few months, the Burmese government have images | :31:14. | :31:20. | |
for new laws for race and religion. Unfortunately, those laws were made | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
to protect, but instead of protecting they have built | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
unsurmountable hurdles for convergence and mixed marriages. | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
Would the Minister agree that the disappearance of the two ministers | :31:33. | :31:35. | |
is an indication of the daily horrors faced, and can he outline | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
what representations have made on behalf of Christians? Freighter at | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
the very name of Jesus? Responded to -- afraid to utter. The honourable | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
gentleman made some powerful interventions, I know he cares very | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
deeply about minorities, in particular the Christian community. | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
We continue to make the case, both to the Burmese government, but also | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
in an international forum, that these matters are absolutely vital, | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
and that we need to make sure that there is no persecution of | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
minorities of Christians, of any type of minorities in that country, | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
and we'll keep doing that. I think it's important that we have this | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
kind of debate in this House now, because it shows the international | :32:26. | :32:30. | |
community that we care very deeply the whole House about this matter. | :32:31. | :32:37. | |
The Burmese government's commission to investigate human rights | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
violations against Rohingya found that there was insufficient evidence | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
of human rights violations, which quite frankly I find given that they | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
are continue to be one of the most persecuted communities. Can the | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
Minister macro tell me what direct conversations he has had with the | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
Burmese government to challenge the accuracy of this ridiculous report? | :33:00. | :33:07. | |
Mr Speaker, I agree with the honourable gentleman. We've also | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
noted the interim that has been produced, and as he has intimated, | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
it indicates that they human rights abuses have taken place. And this is | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
of course against the weight of testimony from a range of human | :33:22. | :33:24. | |
rights sources, frankly this is not credible. We call on the commission | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
to demonstrate the commitment made by the government to an impartial | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
investigation over the coming weeks. Of course, we wait to see what the | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
final report says, but I agree with him. The report needs to be credible | :33:37. | :33:43. | |
for anyone to take it seriously. Could I take this opportunity, I | :33:44. | :33:46. | |
went been the chamber tomorrow, I know you'll miss me, Mr Speaker. -- | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
I won't. I know it's your birthday, so if I could wish you an early | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
happy birthday for tomorrow. Since the Bernie 's security forces | :33:59. | :34:02. | |
started their campaign in October -- the Burmese, it is estimated that | :34:03. | :34:12. | |
65,000 treble Muslims have fled. According to reports, there have | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
been subject to arson, rape and murder at the hands of the military | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
-- Rohingya Moslems. These allegations are incredibly serious, | :34:20. | :34:22. | |
and it is for that reason I ask the Minister for the fourth time I | :34:23. | :34:26. | |
believe, if he will continue to call for the establishment of an | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
independent investigation into these claims. May I also wish you a happy | :34:30. | :34:41. | |
birthday for tomorrow. I mean that most sincerely. Can I just respond | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
to the honourable lady. I hope, Mr Speaker, I have made clear today | :34:47. | :34:50. | |
that there are a huge number of avenues that we in the UK are | :34:51. | :34:54. | |
pursuing, in terms of getting humanitarian aid, making the case | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
for minorities, and actually making it very clear that we care very | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
deeply about these matters. At the end of the day, that is something we | :35:03. | :35:05. | |
will keep doing. Going back to this point about the approach from a UN | :35:06. | :35:11. | |
perspective. There are a number of errors that the UN is already | :35:12. | :35:15. | |
engaged, and will continue to work with those -- number of areas, to | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
make sure that those resolution in this very troubled area. Mr Speaker, | :35:20. | :35:25. | |
can he say what discussions he has had or will have with the government | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
of Bangladesh about the refugee status of the Rohingya people, who | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
have fled in many cases the most obscene violence in the state? I | :35:34. | :35:44. | |
have raised the issue of the Rohingya in Bangladesh with the | :35:45. | :35:47. | |
representatives of the Bangladeshi government before Christmas. As I | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
said, the point that I particularly made to the government of Bangladesh | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
was that they should not be seeking to return people who are seeking | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
refuge back into danger. That is a really important point. In terms of | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
aid, we're providing, the UK is the largest provider of food aid to the | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
34,000 Rohingya refugees already living in camps in Bangladesh, and | :36:13. | :36:21. | |
since 2014, the UK has provided nearly ?80 million -- ?8 million to | :36:22. | :36:29. | |
the refugees and the communities that support them. I apologise for | :36:30. | :36:33. | |
not being here in the beginning. I was meant to be in Burma this week | :36:34. | :36:40. | |
with the mess was -- Westminster foundation. It has been delayed | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
until May. They indicated 92 different parties other than the two | :36:45. | :36:51. | |
main parties. With the Minister look at how someone like myself from | :36:52. | :36:54. | |
Northern Ireland, the difficulties we've had there, we can look at how | :36:55. | :37:01. | |
we can help some of those parties work together and the military learn | :37:02. | :37:05. | |
to respect them, so that we find a way forward? Could be a great help | :37:06. | :37:10. | |
to the Westminster -- if the Westminster foundation for democracy | :37:11. | :37:14. | |
could have some help. I'm very happy to speak with a gentleman out of | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
this debate about the work doing with the Westminster foundation. In | :37:18. | :37:23. | |
terms of the discussions we are having, at the end of the day it is | :37:24. | :37:30. | |
someone who is effectively leading the government, and we have contact | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
with her. The Foreign Secretary of meat are soon on his visit to Burma | :37:36. | :37:41. | |
with all the actors, particularly with our ambassador. -- to meet her | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
soon. The key thing is engagement with military, at the end of the day | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
they are the ones who are leading some of the issues, we have | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
concerns, and I think it was vital that we engage. Order. Ten minute | :37:55. | :38:03. | |
rule motion, Joan Ryan. I beg to move that leave the given to bring | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
in a bill to require the Secretary of State to promote the | :38:09. | :38:12. | |
establishment of an international fund for Israeli-Palestinian peace, | :38:13. | :38:15. | |
to support coexistence projects and civil society programmes. Recent | :38:16. | :38:25. | |
weeks has seen a flurry of activity on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
The UN Security Council resolution and major speech by the US Secretary | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
of State John Kerry and a further peace conference in Paris last | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
weekend. The barriers to add two state solution are well-known. As a | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
strong friend of Israel, I admit freely but great regret that these | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
include the expansion of settlements on the West Bank. Settlement | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
building is wrong. It threatens the viability of a future Palestinian | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
state. The case for which is an arguable. It does immense damage to | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
Israel's standing in the world, and over time it will put at risk that | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
which is most precious about Israel's character, its Jewish and | :39:06. | :39:11. | |
democratic character. As Secretary Kerry is stated clearly, settlements | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
are not the whole, or even the primary cause of this conflict. So | :39:15. | :39:20. | |
too is the incitement tolerated and in many cases perpetrated by the | :39:21. | :39:23. | |
Palestinian authorities. The payment of salaries to those convicted of | :39:24. | :39:28. | |
terrorist offences, and the naming of schools, streets and sports | :39:29. | :39:33. | |
tournament after so-called martyrs, thereby glorifying violence. Then | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
there is the greatest barrier of all, the rejectionist, anti-Semitic | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
ideology of high Mass, Hezbollah and Iran, which denies Israel's very | :39:43. | :39:48. | |
right to exist, and the terrorism which inevitably flows from it -- of | :39:49. | :39:55. | |
Hamas. I believe it will help to address of the pernicious | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
consequences arising from them. Instead, my Bill recognises that as | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
example of Northern Ireland taught us, any peace process needs a | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
political dimension, and economic dimension and a civil society to | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
dimension. Coexistence projects that bring together Israelis and | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
Palestinians to advance the cause of mutual understanding, reconciliation | :40:18. | :40:21. | |
trust is that civil society dimension. The world has paid too | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
little attention investing only around ?37 million per year in | :40:28. | :40:31. | |
people to people projects for Israel and Palestine. That is less than ?4 | :40:32. | :40:36. | |
for each Israeli and Palestinian person each year. Britain | :40:37. | :40:41. | |
exemplifies this problem. From spending a pitiful ?150,000 on | :40:42. | :40:48. | |
coexistence projects in 2015 and 2016, the government despite | :40:49. | :40:50. | |
repeated warm words to the contrary appears to have cut this funding | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
altogether, in the current financial year. -- 2015-2016. I'm pleased that | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
the Secretary of State for International Development seems keen | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
to right this wrong. The absence of strong constituencies for peace in | :41:04. | :41:07. | |
Israel and Palestine is one of the results. Polling by the Israeli | :41:08. | :41:15. | |
democracy Institute and Palestinian Centre for policy and survey | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
research last summer underlined the scale of the problem. While 59% of | :41:19. | :41:23. | |
Israelis and 51% of Palestinians still support a two state solution, | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
these already slim majorities are fragile, threatened by fear and | :41:28. | :41:33. | |
distrust between the two peoples. 89% of Palestinians believe Israeli | :41:34. | :41:38. | |
dues are untrustworthy, feeling reciprocated by 60% of the latter -- | :41:39. | :41:50. | |
Israeli dues. 45% of Palestinians fear Israeli dues. We should not | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
place our heads in the optimism of the young. After all, this is the | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
generation which has no memory of the optimism engendered by the Oslo | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
accords, but his formative years have instead been marked by suicide | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
bombings, and perpetual conflict between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
Even where the peace process in better health -- were the peace | :42:13. | :42:15. | |
process, these would hardly be the most solid foundations upon which to | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
build a lasting peace. We should recall that those seeds of the Good | :42:20. | :42:23. | |
Friday agreement were sown at a cinema, inauspicious moment, when | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
during the height of the Troubles, the International fund for Ireland | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
was created -- at a similar inauspicious moment. Investment in | :42:33. | :42:41. | |
grass-roots coexistent work has been spent in Northern Ireland. Over 5000 | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
projects have been supported since it was established to promote | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
economic and social advance, and to encourage contact, dialogue and | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
reconciliation between nationalists and unionists throughout Ireland. | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
That investment helped provide popular support, which has helped | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
sustain the Good Friday agreement over nearly two decades. With this | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
example in mind, my Bill requires the government to promote the | :43:06. | :43:10. | |
establishment of the proposed international fund for | :43:11. | :43:13. | |
Israeli-Palestinian peace. This has been designed by the Alliance for | :43:14. | :43:16. | |
middle East peace, a coalition of over 90 organisations building | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
people to be a book operation, and coexistence. The fund aims to | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
leveraged and increase public and private contributions worldwide, | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
funding civil Society projects and joint economic development that | :43:32. | :43:33. | |
promote coexistence, peace and reconciliation. It is envisaged that | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
the $200 million per year fund, four times the current level of | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
international support, for people to people work in Israel Palestine, | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
would receive contributions of approximately 25% each from the | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
United States, Europe, the rest of the international community | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
including the Arab world, and the private sector. The fund is not, I | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
should emphasise, intended to receive support that otherwise would | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
be provided directly to either the Palestinian authority, or to Israel. | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
We know that coexistence projects in Israel Palestine work. After two | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
decades, there is now a significant body of evidence based on academic | :44:16. | :44:21. | |
and government evaluations, indicating the impact that | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
coexistence projects can have. The impact moreover has been achieved in | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
the face of considerable challenges. According to the USA, those | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
participating in people to people programmes report higher levels of | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
trust, co-operation, more conflict Revolution values -- resolution | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
values and less aggression and loneliness. Evaluation of individual | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
programmes and alliances impact. A truly inspiring project which brings | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
together young Israelis and Palestinians to learn about it | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
technology and entrepreneurship found a 60% increase in the number | :44:58. | :45:01. | |
of students who valued working with someone from the other side after | :45:02. | :45:07. | |
just one year on the programme. The parents circle friends for common | :45:08. | :45:10. | |
organisation of more than 600 Palestinian and Israeli families who | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
have lost a family member in the conflict found that 70% of all | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
participants had increased trust and empathy, and 84% were motivated to | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
participate in peace building activities in their communities. I | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
would ask if they could point anything in their current funding | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
that has moved the conflict closer to resolution's if coexistence work | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
is going to be held to a standard that demand that it demonstrates how | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
it helps solve the conflict, then surely other strategies that have | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
not by themselves moved the ball Ford should be held to the same | :45:51. | :45:51. | |
standard? -- the ball forward. Support is growing and Cros | :45:52. | :46:03. | |
international boundaries and political parties. The quaur Tote's | :46:04. | :46:09. | |
quartet's most recent report recommended a focus on civil society | :46:10. | :46:13. | |
work since the first time since its finding. The Vatican, Jewish | :46:14. | :46:16. | |
organisations and politicians on both left and right in Israel have | :46:17. | :46:22. | |
all raised their voices in support. On Capitol Hill, two US Congressman, | :46:23. | :46:29. | |
have worked across party lines, introducing a bill in support of the | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
international fund nshgts best traditions of US global leadership. | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
In this House, 56 of my Labour colleagues, signed an open letter to | :46:39. | :46:43. | |
the Secretary of State for International Development, last | :46:44. | :46:44. | |
month, endorsing the fund and I'm delighted today to have the support | :46:45. | :46:49. | |
of members from the Conservative and Liberal Democrat parties. I'm | :46:50. | :46:52. | |
particularly pleased to have the right honourable member for | :46:53. | :46:59. | |
Brentford and Ongar, the Chairman of Conservative Friends of Israel, | :47:00. | :47:02. | |
listed as one of the support Is of this bill. The late Shimon Peres | :47:03. | :47:13. | |
once said, "The way it make peace is not through government, it is | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
through people." He knew even in the most challenging of times, we must | :47:18. | :47:21. | |
never give up on the search for peace. By supporting my Bill, the | :47:22. | :47:27. | |
House can underline its support for that search. | :47:28. | :47:31. | |
Hear, hear. THE SPEAKER: Order, the question is | :47:32. | :47:35. | |
in fact right honourable member have leave to bring in the Bill? As many | :47:36. | :47:43. | |
of that opinion say aye. . Aye. To the contrary, no. The ayes have T | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
who will prepare and bring in the Bill? Mr Speaker, Ian Austin, Right | :47:49. | :47:56. | |
Honourable Alistair car mikele, Chris Davy, Mrs Lieu weighs he | :47:57. | :48:02. | |
willman,p Steven kinic. Right Honourable, Sir Eric Pickles, Will, | :48:03. | :48:10. | |
Quins, Paul Skully, Stephen Twigg and myself, Sir. -- Louise Elman, | :48:11. | :48:17. | |
Stephen Kinnock. Promotion of Israeli-Palestinian | :48:18. | :48:51. | |
peace United Kingdom participation Bill. Second reading, what day? 24th | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
March, Sir. 24th March. Thank you. Order. We now | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
come to the general debate on exiting the European Union and | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
security law enforcement and criminal justice. | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
To move the motion, I call the Minster. Minster of State, Mr | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
Brandon Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker. And I do beg | :49:18. | :49:23. | |
to move that this House has considered exiting the EU and | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
security, law enforcement and criminal justice within that. I'm | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
pleased to introduce today's debate on security, law enforcement and | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
criminal justice, which is one of a number of debates we'll be having | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
about our exit from the European Union. It is important that members | :49:38. | :49:42. | |
of this House have the opportunity to discuss and debate leaving the | :49:43. | :49:49. | |
EU. The Prime Minister underlined the importance of Parliament's | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
involvement in exit negotiations in her speech yesterday. This | :49:53. | :49:55. | |
afternoon, members have the chance to debate an area of our | :49:56. | :49:59. | |
relationship with the EU that is crucial. Not only to our | :50:00. | :50:03. | |
negotiations, but to continued safety of both Europe, ourselves and | :50:04. | :50:08. | |
the citizens across Europe and the United Kingdom. This debate will | :50:09. | :50:14. | |
focus on how we work with the EU on security, law enforcement and | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
criminal justice now, and how we will work with our EU partners in | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
the future. Cooperation in the fight against crime and terrorism was one | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
of the Government's core negotiating objectives. The UK is leaving the EU | :50:28. | :50:33. | |
but as we have been clear, we are not leaving Europe. We are committed | :50:34. | :50:38. | |
to strong cooperation on security, law enforcement and criminal justice | :50:39. | :50:43. | |
now, and after we leave. We will work with our European partners, to | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
find solutions which promote security across Europe, and beyond. | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
The decision of the British people to leave the European Union does not | :50:52. | :50:57. | |
altar the duty that we and all Member States share collectively to | :50:58. | :51:00. | |
keep our citizens safe and to present our democratic way of life, | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
and the rule of law. In the face of the common threats we face from | :51:07. | :51:13. | |
terrorism, cyber attacks and who is Isle foreign actors, maintaining | :51:14. | :51:16. | |
strong EU-UK security operation is vital to our collective success in | :51:17. | :51:19. | |
keeping citizens safe. It is difficult to see how it would be in | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
anyone's interests for exit negotiations to result in a | :51:24. | :51:28. | |
reduction in the effectiveness of security, law enforcement and | :51:29. | :51:30. | |
criminal justice cooperation. I give way to the right honourable | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
gentleman. I'ms grateful to the minister for giving away and I have | :51:36. | :51:37. | |
nothing to disagree with in respect of what he said so far. On this | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
issue, we are leaders in Europe, as far as cooperation on security and | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
justice. But does he awe gree with me, one of the most important | :51:46. | :51:51. | |
aspects of this is information sharing and access to ECRAS should | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
be one of the key elements of our negotiations, to be able to to reach | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
those criminal records of those who committed offences in the rest of | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
Europe, and to share information of those who commit those offences in | :52:07. | :52:12. | |
our country. Well, I appreciate the right honourable gentleman's | :52:13. | :52:13. | |
agreement with my position, so far, in this debate. He makes an | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
important point. I will come very specifically to that. There is an | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
issue around my understanding, which we all do in this House, that we | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
live in a world of global work and people work in cross borders, | :52:29. | :52:31. | |
particularly in criminality that we need to be well-equipped to do with. | :52:32. | :52:36. | |
Criminality and terrorism is transnational and international | :52:37. | :52:39. | |
groups exploit you will have nerments such as inadequate law | :52:40. | :52:43. | |
enforcement and criminal justice struck you are toos. Threats we are | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
facing, cybercrime which is moving quickly or online child sexual | :52:48. | :52:53. | |
exploitation, are by definition, international in a technologically | :52:54. | :52:56. | |
connected world. The UK's crime agencies, most recent public | :52:57. | :53:00. | |
estimate suggests there are over 6,000 organised crime groups seeking | :53:01. | :53:03. | |
to operate in the United king do. I give way. I'm grateful. Could he | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
give me some reassurance on the issue of the European arrest | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
warrant. Because, before the last election there was a debate in this | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
House when the current Prime Minister, then the Home Secretary, | :53:15. | :53:18. | |
was fighting very hard to get that European arrest warrant through this | :53:19. | :53:21. | |
House in the face of some Opposition from some members. Could he give me | :53:22. | :53:25. | |
an independencation that he will zur the powers of that arrest warrant, | :53:26. | :53:30. | |
post-Brexit? -- that he will secure. I'm sure the right honourable | :53:31. | :53:32. | |
gentleman will be very awhich are that we are at the start of | :53:33. | :53:35. | |
negotiations. I can't predict the outcome of where we will end up but | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
I will come specifically to the European arrest warrant and the | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
implication it is has for us in a few moments. Criminal networks are | :53:44. | :53:48. | |
driving migrant struggling. Europol estimate more than 09% of migrants | :53:49. | :53:54. | |
travelling to the EU use facilitators, in most cases provided | :53:55. | :53:59. | |
by criminal groups with an estimated turnover of ?3 to 6 billion in 2015. | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
As I said to the honourable gentleman we are at the beginning of | :54:04. | :54:07. | |
a complex process to agree a new relationship with the EU. This is | :54:08. | :54:10. | |
new territory for both sides and it is way too early to say exactly what | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
that relationship will look like but I'm sure there will be many, varied | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
views expressed from around the chamber today and in the months | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
ahead but I am confident that nobody will argue against the importance of | :54:23. | :54:27. | |
fighting cross-border crime and depending security across Europe. I | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
am happy to give way. Perhaps to reinforce that point, | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
will he concede that what we are actually talking about is a system | :54:37. | :54:40. | |
of European criminal justice cooperation. Much of this is about | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
practical cooperation and information-sharing and does not | :54:45. | :54:48. | |
actually largely, touch about the substantive criminal law of the | :54:49. | :54:51. | |
stants sometimes extends beyond Member States of the European Union? | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
Doesn't that reinforce the importance of this practical point? | :54:57. | :54:59. | |
My honourable friend, as ever makes a really important point. He is | :55:00. | :55:02. | |
absolutely right in what he says. Not least of all that in some of | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
these organisations such as Europol, there are members and countries who | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
are involved with Europol who are not part of the European Union, | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
highlighting how they see the importance of make sure we are | :55:14. | :55:16. | |
scaring information in an efficient and were active way to fight crime. | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
It is absolutely right we work to ensure we protect that ability. | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
Whatever shape our future relationship se. Takes, I hope that | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
we can all agree it should knot compromise the safety of the people | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
in the UK or the rest of Europe. I'm most grateful to my honourable | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
friend for giving way. He will be aware that one of the consequences | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
of leaving the European Union, as the Prime Minister has indicated, is | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
that we withdraw from, as she puts it, from the jurisdiction of the | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
European Court of Justice. But as he will be aware, many of these justice | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
cooperation functions, ultimately, come under the you jurisdiction of | :55:56. | :56:06. | |
the European Court. And I have to say that I find it difficult to | :56:07. | :56:09. | |
understand what arrangement the government has in mind to address | :56:10. | :56:11. | |
this issue, whether it wishes to have a separate tribunal system set | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
up in order to apply the rules. Or what it envisages. Because, | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
otherwise, even for states which are outside the EU, the ECJ is in fact | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
very important in the rulings it gives on these key areas of security | :56:22. | :56:27. | |
cooperation. Well, I do appreciate the point that | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
my right honourable friend makes. And one of the pieces of work we are | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
doing as we go through the negotiations is to make sure we get | :56:36. | :56:40. | |
something that is bespoke for the United Kingdom. One of the things we | :56:41. | :56:44. | |
have to do is look at what other countries have done, and other | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
countries who work with Europol and the United States, are good example | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
who are not members of the EU but have found ways to work with us. | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
These are examples we can look at but we need to develop a bespoke | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
system for the UK. In her speech yesterday, the Prime Minister set | :57:04. | :57:05. | |
out what the Government's negotiation objectives are for | :57:06. | :57:07. | |
Brexit. She explained how this Government plans it make Britain | :57:08. | :57:09. | |
stronger and fair, restoring self-determination whilst becoming | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
more global and international in action and spirit. We do have a long | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
record of playing a leading role within Europe and globally to | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
support and drive cooperation to help protect sit zences and depend | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
democratic values and we have been lead programme Popents of | :57:26. | :57:28. | |
development of a number of law enforcement criminal justice | :57:29. | :57:30. | |
measures that are now in place across the European Union. Yesterday | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
the Prime Minister also reiterated that while June's referendum was a | :57:35. | :57:37. | |
vote to leave the EU, it was not a vote to leave Europe. We want to | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
continue to be reliable partners, willing Allies and close friends | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
within the European countries. On a practical level there, has been no | :57:47. | :57:50. | |
immediate change to how we work with the EU following the referendum. As | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
a recent decision, just before Christmas, to seek to opt into the | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
new legislative framework for Europol, the EU policing agency, | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
demonstrates. The UK will remain a member of the EU, with all rights | :58:02. | :58:05. | |
and obligations that membership entails, until we leave. The way we | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
work with the EU, of course, will have to change once we leave. And we | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
must now plan for what our new relationship will look like. The | :58:15. | :58:17. | |
views members express here today will be helpful in that regard and | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
no doubt so will the right honourable gentleman's. I'm grateful | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
to the minister for giving way. I want to follow up the incredibly | :58:27. | :58:32. | |
important question posed by the right honourable member for, because | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
we are the proud authors of human rights in Europe. It's a tradition | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
that dates back to the McIn a car ta. Will he confirm, when the | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
Government brings forward its proposals on a British biff rights, | :58:46. | :58:52. | |
there'll be nothing in that draft for discussion, that will propose us | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
leaving the European Convention on Human Rights, or the European Court | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
on human rights? Well, I appreciate that the right honourable gentleman | :59:02. | :59:05. | |
tempts me to give a running commentary and prejudge the outcome | :59:06. | :59:08. | |
of the negotiations and work in a couple of years ahead, which I will | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
resist but I will say to him, while we remain a member of the EU, we do | :59:13. | :59:17. | |
recognise the jurisdiction obviously of the European Court of Justice, | :59:18. | :59:20. | |
over the measures we've opted into. It is too early it spk late at this | :59:21. | :59:25. | |
stage on exactly what our relation with the European Court of Justice | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
will be after we leave the EU. -- speculate. That is work that will be | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
done as we go forward. I have spoken to several counts parts in Europe, | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
as has the Home Secretary and many colleagues across Government and I | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
have to say in the coveringses I have had with colleagues across | :59:41. | :59:42. | |
Europe, I have been encouraged by their view that it is essential to | :59:43. | :59:46. | |
find a way for our shared work on security to continue. But we do have | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
questions that we need to work through answering about how that | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
should happen in practice. Will th will be complex and subject to | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
negotiation. But we are committed to finding a way forward that works | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
both for the UK and the European Union. And Home Office is working | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
with departments, such as my honourable friend, who will be | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
closing the debate today, across Whitehall to analyse a full range of | :00:09. | :00:12. | |
options for future cooperation. We are also liaising with our | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
colleagues, closely in a devolved administration. It is crucial to | :00:16. | :00:19. | |
make sure that we have a way that goes forward, working for all of the | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
EU. And we are drawning on the | :00:23. | :00:26. | |
invaluable flooint experience of operational partners such as the | :00:27. | :00:29. | |
national crime agency and Crown Prosecution Service. I'm grateful to | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
the ongoing contributions from all those organisations. This work is | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
being drawn together with the support of our colleague in the | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
department for exiting the EU and will form part of our wider exit | :00:40. | :00:43. | |
negotiation strategy. I'll make progress. | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
A number of legal agreements. Or tools. They provide the framework | :00:49. | :00:56. | |
for practical cooperation arrangements and information sharing | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
mechanisms which were mentioned today. As well as supporting | :01:02. | :01:08. | |
cross-border traditional and more enforcement, they include measures | :01:09. | :01:12. | |
such as the European West warrant, prisoner transfer arrangements -- | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
European arrest warrant. They are designed to protect the rights of | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
defendants and vulnerable across borders, facilitated major | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
cooperation, support, practical processes for fighting cross-border | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
crime and delivering justice. And yes, we have been leading proponents | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
of a development of a number of security measures in the EU, backed | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
by proportion safeguards. Leaving the EU does not mean we are walking | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
away from this close cooperation with our nearest neighbours. I have | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
to give waste of your I'm grateful to the Minister for giving way, | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
because I'm now looking a durable's website, which starts with phrase" | :01:51. | :01:58. | |
we do this by assisting European union member states in their fight | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
against serious organised crime" so I would like to know from the | :02:03. | :02:08. | |
minister, what are the negotiating terms for us to still access to pot | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
if we are not a member state? If he has a look further into the Europol | :02:13. | :02:17. | |
website, there are associate member state are ready, such as the United | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
States. Treble is just one example, but I'll come to it specifically in | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
a few moments -- Europol is. The toolkit has evolved over many years, | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
in response to changes both in the nature of the EU and international | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
security threats and the increased movement of people across borders. | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
The Justice and home affairs. Decision in 2014 gave us the | :02:38. | :02:44. | |
opportunity to re-evaluate certain measures to the UK pre-20 14. But | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
provides a useful reference point, it is important to be clear that the | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
situation following the outcome of a referendum is now different. We will | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
no longer be a member of the EU, to state the obvious. Unlike the 2014 | :03:00. | :03:04. | |
decision, the question now is not whether we seek to rejoin certain | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
measures as a member state. Instead, we have to consider how we should | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
interact with the EU security law enforcement, criminal justice | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
toolkit from outside the EU. We are considering a full range of possible | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
options. We are looking at existing arrangements for third country | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
cooperation with the EU, which can inform discussions. But it is | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
important to be very clear as I said a few moments ago that we are not | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
looking to replicate any other nation's model. We are at a unique | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
starting point with a strong history of working closely with the member | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
states as partners and as allies. As mentioned, we will make a key | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
contribution to security and justice, both in Europe and | :03:45. | :03:48. | |
globally. We will seek an agreement with the EU that recognises that | :03:49. | :03:53. | |
unique position that we hold. I thank the Minister for giving way. | :03:54. | :04:02. | |
Further to an earlier question, further to the Prime Minister's | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
speech yesterday. She said we will not be hanging on to fits of the EU. | :04:06. | :04:14. | |
Europol is an EU agency -- on two bits. The European arrest warrant is | :04:15. | :04:25. | |
in EU crime and safety measure. Isn't the only interpretational of | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
the Prime Minister's speech about not hanging onto certain bits of the | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
EU that are no longer participate in either of these? As an example, I | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
will say that it is worth having a look at the website that his | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
colleague is looking at. There are members and associate members of | :04:44. | :04:47. | |
your poll that are not members of European Union -- of Europol. | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
Europol existed as a non-EU institution before the EU as an | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
institution was involved. These things are why important. We'll be | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
looking to develop a unique and bespoke position for this country. | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
In just a moment I will give way. I just want to make this point. I do | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
appreciate from comments already made today, it's clear there will be | :05:09. | :05:16. | |
members pen question -- who will question the benefit. I've had the | :05:17. | :05:20. | |
chance to see regular, real-life example of what they do and how they | :05:21. | :05:24. | |
matter -- why they matter, which I'll outline as soon as I have given | :05:25. | :05:28. | |
way. Although there are several countries that have operational and | :05:29. | :05:33. | |
strategic partnerships with the Europol, they don't have a say in | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
the overall direction of Europol and also in many cases don't have access | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
to all the databases, and it is access to the databases that is | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
critical. Can he tell us, it hearing out trying to remain a member of | :05:47. | :05:56. | |
Europol? -- is he ruling out. And will have access to all of | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
pottable's databases. Are not ruling anything out. We would bespoke deal | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
right of this country, no not prejudge the outcome of negotiations | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
over the next couple of years. Europol is a European Union agency | :06:10. | :06:15. | |
that is based in The Hague, the one that we are a huge contributor to. | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
The chief executive at the moment, an excellent leader for that | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
organisation is a British national. Whilst the honourable member doesn't | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
want to prejudge negotiations, the decision to opt in, in which he laid | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
out his case are doing so, show the UK is willing to be an active | :06:38. | :06:44. | |
participant in Europol for many years to come. Has outlined at the | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
time, he makes a good point in one sense but I want to be very clear. | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
The opt in was in the context of us being a member of the European | :06:56. | :07:00. | |
Union. The next couple of years, we are still a full member of the | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
European Union. It's important that we make sure we take the opportunity | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
to play a full and strong part here. And we do want to continue to play a | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
very, very strong part as a partner for our colleagues across Europe and | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
globally, particularly for law enforcement. The prime objective of | :07:16. | :07:22. | |
treble is to facilitate information to prevent serious crime and | :07:23. | :07:26. | |
terrorism -- of Europol. I have yet to meet a senior police officer | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
across our country who does not value our permission of Europol. By | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
providing a platform for members to share intelligence and information | :07:36. | :07:37. | |
and for a strong analysis function, it offers an parallel opportunities | :07:38. | :07:43. | |
to prevent serious crime and protect EU citizens, including those in the | :07:44. | :07:52. | |
UK. This means that some 86,629, for example, suspected criminals were | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
identified on Europol information system in 2015 alone, at 40% even on | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
the year before. 1500 plus decisions for referrals of terrorist and | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
extremist online content between July and December of 2016, with 1600 | :08:07. | :08:14. | |
plus removals. Large-scale organised crime and traffic cases, the UK | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
starts one of the largest national desks in the organisation, where one | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
of the biggest contributors of information to Europol's systems. | :08:23. | :08:34. | |
Another mechanism we have at the moment is to Kante. It works troppo | :08:35. | :08:43. | |
located network -- is Eurojus. Later this year, we will start operating | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
the EU's system for exchange of DNA, fingerprints and vehicle | :08:50. | :08:52. | |
registration data. Following this has's overwhelming vote in December | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
2015 you join it. In 2015, we did conduct a pilot. Exchanging DNA | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
profiles with other member states, which gave us an impressive number | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
of hits. Many again suspect or lot of unidentified otherwise, and allow | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
the police, who are then able to arrest people for a number of | :09:12. | :09:16. | |
serious offences including burglary and attempted rape. Since a thousand | :09:17. | :09:20. | |
15, we have taken part in a second generation Schengen information | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
system, a system for circulating law-enforcement alerts around the EU | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
at the same time. This ensures that intelligence is shared | :09:32. | :09:32. | |
internationally to help prevent threats from across the world. We | :09:33. | :09:39. | |
have arrested and extradited wanted criminals, who we have would not | :09:40. | :09:42. | |
have otherwise even known about. I have the give way. The National | :09:43. | :09:53. | |
crime agency has said the team is vitally important to UK, where he | :09:54. | :09:59. | |
also join the Met police in that Eurojust is usually fallible and | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
cooperation agreements must be guaranteed as soon as we leave the | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
EU -- is hugely valuable. Unaware when I talked about the Association | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
of curb lease -- of police, wear uniform in desire to keep all the | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
talk is we can actively working. The work we have to do in the years | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
ahead must reflect the fact we have made very clear that when people | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
took forward their boat on the 23rd of June last year, they didn't wait | :10:28. | :10:38. | |
to be any less safe -- their vote. The serving of prison sentences of | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
existing convictions, we have managed to extradite some 7000 | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
people for the benefit of that. The European information system provides | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
a secure electronic system, the exchange of information on criminal | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
record and convictions between authorities are participating | :10:55. | :10:57. | |
countries. Ensures that UK authorities are made aware when our | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
own nationals convicted in any EU country. Means we can secure Camilla | :11:01. | :11:08. | |
information on EU nationals, so when the UK courts -- criminal | :11:09. | :11:12. | |
information, they can take into account previous cruel behaviour. | :11:13. | :11:22. | |
Comicstrip -- previous criminal behaviour, I am grateful. The | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
government's intention is to effectively negotiate a bespoke | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
deal, to secure all of this into the future and to achieve that within | :11:31. | :11:36. | |
two years. What happens if we don't get that spoke deal within the next | :11:37. | :11:42. | |
two years? I say to my right honourable friend but obviously have | :11:43. | :11:48. | |
been very clear about this, that the country has voted to leave the EU, | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
and we are leaving the EU. This is in the context of working to get | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
that spoke deal that she referred to. I have every confidence not just | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
in the Home Secretary and the team at the Home Office, but also the | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
Prime Minister and the team across the backs of department as well to | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
negotiate to get that deal that is right for our country in the years | :12:06. | :12:12. | |
ahead. I want to touch briefly on the fight against terrorism. We are | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
and always have been clear in the national security remains the sole | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
responsibility of EU member states. That was set out in EU law. Would my | :12:21. | :12:25. | |
honourable friend agree that of course matters relating to the | :12:26. | :12:28. | |
important questions Hughes raised regarding crime, terrorism, security | :12:29. | :12:35. | |
-- he has raised, questions of fingerprinting, not by any means | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
confined to that region called the European Union. Actually apply | :12:39. | :12:42. | |
internationally, and therefore just as other countries such as the | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
United States have their arrangements, so we have hours. He | :12:46. | :12:52. | |
makes an important point in that the work we have done across Europe, we | :12:53. | :12:55. | |
have been a leading country in getting this work, it is work we are | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
continuing to do with countries around the world. To make sure able | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
to do everything we can in every context to keep our country and | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
citizens say. We do work bilaterally and through the counterterrorism | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
group for example to combat terrorism in Europe. That includes | :13:13. | :13:19. | |
working with European partners on information sharing, tackling | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
foreign fighters, law-enforcement cooperation, tackling | :13:25. | :13:30. | |
radicalisation. That sits outside the EU, and will continue to be a | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
member of it. I EU cooperation is just part of a wider landscape. | :13:35. | :13:41. | |
International counterterrorism work which includes cooperation through | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
relationships such as Interpol, and bilateral work with individual | :13:47. | :13:53. | |
countries and of course Nato. Might I just make one point in relation to | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
the integration by my honourable friend the member. It was very clear | :13:58. | :14:05. | |
that though there are other means of international cooperation and with | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
other countries outside the EU, the current mechanisms are much more | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
efficient than those, which very often have to be conducted on a | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
bilateral basis, rather than as part of a joined up system. Beverages | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
desirable -- therefore it is desirable that we do all it can to | :14:23. | :14:27. | |
stay in them. That is a good point, and there are different agreements | :14:28. | :14:30. | |
in different parts of the world with different partners. In important | :14:31. | :14:33. | |
that we work to get the benefits we have seen from some of the work we | :14:34. | :14:35. | |
have got in agreements across Europe. Actually more widely. There | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
are key partners in Europe, and they assure us they very are close | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
corporation in counterterrorism matters as well. We are clear and | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
effective cooperation with EU member states in order to combat terrorism | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
will continue to be a top UK priority. EU relationships will have | :14:57. | :15:01. | |
to change, but our shared goal in ensuring the security of our | :15:02. | :15:03. | |
citizens will not. It is important we can find a way forward that works | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
for the UK and the EU jointly, for mutual benefit. We report on | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
negotiations from the perspective of what's best for the safety of all | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
our citizens. What is worse for those who seek to cause serious harm | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
to all innocent people and democratic values. During | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
negotiations, we will look to continue the excellent levels of | :15:25. | :15:28. | |
cooperation that currently exist with our European partners. We are | :15:29. | :15:31. | |
recognising that the nature of the future relationship can only be | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
decided in negotiations with member states and EU institutions. | :15:36. | :15:47. | |
We recognise the challenges in negotiating a new relationship. We | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
are committed to finding new situations to allow us to continue | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
working together for the security of Europe and all the citizens of the | :15:58. | :15:58. | |
United Kingdom. The question is, this house has | :15:59. | :16:11. | |
considered exiting the EU and security, law enforcement and | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
criminal justice. Lynne Brown. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We | :16:16. | :16:19. | |
welcome this afternoon's debate. In the run-up to the referendum in June | :16:20. | :16:24. | |
last year and the months since, we have heard much about how our | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
decision to leave the European Union will affect Britain's economy. We've | :16:29. | :16:35. | |
it means for our businesses, trading relationships, the nation's finances | :16:36. | :16:40. | |
and most importantly the personal finances of individuals and | :16:41. | :16:43. | |
households throughout our country. All of that is of very deep concern | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
to me and, I know, to many others in the house. Potentially of even | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
greater significance is the threats to our national security that could | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
from leaving the European Union and, in particular, the effect it will | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
have on the ability of our police to protect our citizens. Today, as we | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
turn our focus to these issues, the government needs to provide stronger | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
assurances that our nation's security will not be compromised by | :17:13. | :17:18. | |
our decision to leave the EU. Madam Deputy Speaker if I say gently to | :17:19. | :17:24. | |
the honourable gentleman that his speech was strong in analysis, long, | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
and strong on detail on what these institutions are... But we didn't | :17:30. | :17:34. | |
really hear anything about how we were going to do the things he wants | :17:35. | :17:40. | |
us to affect. I know some honourable members in this house lament the | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
fact that in the 40 years plus since we decided to join the common market | :17:46. | :17:52. | |
it became far more than simply a trading arrangement. Given the | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
nature of the threat we face, it's unsurprising that European countries | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
found it convenient to cooperate in other areas, including the field of | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
justice and home affairs. Quite simply, it was in our national | :18:06. | :18:09. | |
interest to do so. Because the security threat we face are not | :18:10. | :18:14. | |
confined to our national borders, whether it is to fight international | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
terrorist networks or track down fugitives from justice. Or obtain | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
crucial information on the activities of suspects abroad or | :18:24. | :18:28. | |
maintain border controls. It certainly makes more sense to act | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
together. Madam Deputy Speaker, these issues are of paramount | :18:34. | :18:39. | |
importance to the security of our citizens. Whatever our personal view | :18:40. | :18:44. | |
on the EU referendum, we urgently need reassurance from the Minister | :18:45. | :18:49. | |
that our national security and ability to combat crime within our | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
borders will not be compromised by the decision to leave. I know many | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
honourable members will have issues they want to race this afternoon. | :18:59. | :19:06. | |
Thank you very much for letting me in, would be honourable lady agree | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
that for us in Northern Ireland it is especially Kiwi keep our | :19:12. | :19:15. | |
relationships with Ireland and how we are working together there, and | :19:16. | :19:19. | |
improve the counterterrorism world we've got. Eight out of 110 | :19:20. | :19:24. | |
extraditions allowed the still great work to be done. We've got to build | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
on it. The honourable gentleman is absolutely right, there are three | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
main issues that we would like to seek answers on this afternoon. | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
These are our ability to participate in the common arrest warrant, our | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
future relationship with Europe and access to a Europe-wide crime | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
prevention databases including the Schengen information system. I'm | :19:48. | :19:49. | |
going to come to each of those interned. A general point to be | :19:50. | :19:56. | |
made, as many in this house will remember, our optimal relationship | :19:57. | :20:01. | |
with the EU in the field of security and justice was comprehensively | :20:02. | :20:05. | |
debated in the previous parliament. Indeed we opted out of all | :20:06. | :20:10. | |
provisions relating to police and criminal justice in order to have a | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
fresh debate about which foolish proofs we wanted to be part by | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
opting them again. -- which initiatives. This was negotiated | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
with other European member states by the previous Labour government and | :20:26. | :20:31. | |
continued by the subsequent coalition. It consisted of two years | :20:32. | :20:35. | |
of debate in government and Brussels and culminated in Britain deciding | :20:36. | :20:41. | |
to opt back in to 35 specific measures that we considered to be in | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
our national interest. These measures included amongst others the | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
European arrest warrant, Europol, access to Schengen information | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
system. Three things I'm concerned with today. I know our current Prime | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
Minister is concerned about them, too, because it was she as Home | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
Secretary who put the case to the house on the 7th of April 2014, that | :21:03. | :21:10. | |
we should put back into them. Madam Deputy Speaker, it's so nice to have | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
confidence that we will have unanimity in the chamber this | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
afternoon on this often contentious subject. But I know the opted | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
inhabitant before the referendum. -- the opt in happened. The government | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
needs to tell us post-referendum how we ensure we still have access to | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
these measures we so recently decided we needed to keep our | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
citizens safe. We don't have time today to rehearse the two years of | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
debate that led to a decision to cooperate in each of these 35 areas | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
we decided to opt back into. I'm going to focus on our main concerns. | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
There is no doubt this is a crucial tool in the fight against crime in | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
the UK. Introduced 2004, it provides a mechanism for crime suspects who | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
have left the country, fugitives, to be surrendered to the UK | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
automatically buy in European member state, meaning suspects who have | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
fled can be returned in a matter of weeks or days. Crucially it means | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
suspects can be returned to the UK even if the crime they are suspected | :22:21. | :22:23. | |
of committing has a different legal basis. To the law that applies in | :22:24. | :22:30. | |
the country they have fled to. This is because, underpinning the | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
European arrest warrant, is the principal each European Union | :22:36. | :22:38. | |
country agreed to respect the decisions of each other's criminal | :22:39. | :22:39. | |
justice system, even if they differ. I think she's just made the point I | :22:40. | :22:52. | |
wanted to raise, which is that the principal means we have to accept | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
that justice systems across the rest of the EU are as good as ours. Does | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
she have confidence that is the case? I have confidence that the | :23:01. | :23:09. | |
European arrest warrant is far more powerful than any other extradition | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
process anywhere else in the world. And we would be so stupid if we let | :23:14. | :23:22. | |
it go. Since it was introduced in 2004, the UK has used it to bring | :23:23. | :23:28. | |
2500 individuals from outside the UK to face justice. 2500. Let's not | :23:29. | :23:36. | |
forget it was the mechanism that enabled Hussain Osman to be brought | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
to justice after he fled to Italy after a failed suicide bombing in | :23:41. | :23:47. | |
London in 2005. The problem that we face is that the European arrest | :23:48. | :23:53. | |
warrant is available exclusively to EU members. There are considerable | :23:54. | :23:57. | |
hurdles to overcome, were we to attempt to maintain the current | :23:58. | :24:00. | |
arrangements, if we're not in the European Union. As a recent briefing | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
from the Centre for European reform think tank states, if, having left | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
the EU, the UK wanted to get a similar deal, I quote, it would need | :24:12. | :24:15. | |
to convince some of its partners to change their constitutions. In some | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
cases this would trigger a referendum, do we really think they | :24:22. | :24:25. | |
would hold such a referendum because we have decided to leave the EU? | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
Some other countries from outside the European Union have attempted to | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
negotiate access to the current arrest warrant system. Norway and | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
Iceland for example have concluded a surrender agreement with the EU that | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
attempts to get the same benefits, though it has not yet come into | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
force. This agreement is weaker in two ways. First, it requires the | :24:50. | :24:55. | |
alleged offences are the same in both countries, so losing the | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
flexibility that comes from member states agreeing to respect the | :25:00. | :25:03. | |
decisions of each other's criminal justice systems. Second, it allows | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
countries to refuse to surrender their own nationals, making it | :25:10. | :25:14. | |
tricky, for example, if a national of another EU country commits an | :25:15. | :25:20. | |
offence on UK soil. On top of that, if that weren't bad enough, it took | :25:21. | :25:27. | |
15 years to negotiate. That is countries in Schengen and the | :25:28. | :25:32. | |
European economic area. Whereas, as the Prime Minister made clear | :25:33. | :25:39. | |
yesterday, there are no plans for us to be members of either. The | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
alternative is to fall back on previous extradition treaties which | :25:45. | :25:47. | |
are far more cumbersome and in some cases will require EU countries to | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
change their own laws in respect of the UK. Madam Deputy Speaker it is | :25:53. | :25:58. | |
hard to see how any of these options are preferable to the current | :25:59. | :26:03. | |
arrangement. In particular I'm finding it hard to understand how | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
this fits with the Prime Minister's pledge yesterday to "Work together | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
more" in response to threats to our common security. Because while it's | :26:13. | :26:15. | |
not difficult for an individual who has broken the law in Britain to hop | :26:16. | :26:19. | |
on a cheap flight to another European country, I fear it will be | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
very hard indeed without the European arrest warrant for us to | :26:26. | :26:30. | |
get them back again. For this reason, Labour today calls on the | :26:31. | :26:35. | |
government to ensure the current arrangements are maintained. I now | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
turn to Europol. It was only a few weeks ago that this house approved | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
regulations that confirmed our opt in to Europol. The reason we did | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
this is because it is vital to our national security. Europol, the | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
European police office, to give it its proper title, exists to combat | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
serious international organised crime by means of cooperation | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
between relevant authorities, member states, including those tasked with | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
customs, immigration services, borders and financial police. As we | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
know, Europol is not able to mandate national forces to undertake | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
investigations. But it provides information and resources that | :27:24. | :27:25. | |
enables these national investigations to take place. In the | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
words of the British director of Europe, Rob Wainwright, whose | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
previous career was in UK security institutions, our decision to opt | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
into your report is, and I quote, good for Britain's security, great | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
for police operation in Europe. And indeed the Minister for policing | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
confirmed on the 16th of December during the debate on the statutory | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
instrument that you report provides, again I quote, a vital tool in | :27:56. | :28:02. | |
helping UK law enforcement agencies to coordinate investigations | :28:03. | :28:05. | |
involving cross-border serious and organised crime. A vital tool. He | :28:06. | :28:11. | |
also said around 40% of everything Europol does is linked to work that | :28:12. | :28:14. | |
is either provided or requested by the United Kingdom. But when he was | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
pushed on whether we can maintain our membership of Europol, the | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
Secretary of State for exiting the European Union speaking in this | :28:24. | :28:28. | |
house last year was only able to say the government will seek to, and I | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
quote "Preserve the relationship with the European Union security | :28:35. | :28:42. | |
matters as best we can". When the honourable member for Holborn and St | :28:43. | :28:46. | |
Pancras asked the same question about Europol yesterday we got no | :28:47. | :28:49. | |
more information about how it could be done. I'm grateful to the | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
honourable lady for giving way. Is she aware of what Wainwright said | :28:57. | :29:00. | |
last year, that negotiating security pact from outside the block of your | :29:01. | :29:04. | |
report in the event of Britain leaving the EU would be a damage | :29:05. | :29:08. | |
limitation exercise. Does she agree with me that what we need to hear | :29:09. | :29:11. | |
from the government today is not a eulogy to how great you report is | :29:12. | :29:14. | |
because we know that already, but an indication of how they will limit | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
the damage caused by leaving the European Union and agencies such as | :29:18. | :29:22. | |
Europol. The honourable lady is absolutely right because Madam | :29:23. | :29:26. | |
Deputy Speaker I agree with her, it simply isn't good enough. While the | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
rubble has arrangements for third-party access, they raise | :29:32. | :29:35. | |
serious questions. The government itself, in a policy paper published | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
last year stated, again, I quote, there are a number of important | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
differences between what Europol provides to third countries with | :29:43. | :29:49. | |
which it has agreements. And EU members. They highlight, in | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
particular, the inability to directly submit data and conduct | :29:54. | :29:57. | |
searches within the Europol databases. The need to conclude a | :29:58. | :30:02. | |
separate bilateral arrangement to connect to Europol secure | :30:03. | :30:06. | |
information exchange network application. And the ability to sit | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
on Europol's management board, which sets the organisational strategy. It | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
tells us Mr Wainwright is highly unlikely to be staying in his post. | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
In summary, to borrow from the words of David Armond, deputy director of | :30:26. | :30:30. | |
the National crime agency, any alternative arrangement to full | :30:31. | :30:36. | |
membership would be, and I quote, sub optimal. Not as good as what | :30:37. | :30:41. | |
we've currently got. And that, frankly, doesn't feel comfortable to | :30:42. | :30:42. | |
me. Our third concerned is around access | :30:43. | :30:51. | |
to pan-European databases that are important for the routine work of | :30:52. | :30:57. | |
our police forces. Access to the European criminal records data is | :30:58. | :31:02. | |
limited, exclusively to EU member states. The common European asylum | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
system includes fingerprint database known as Euro duck, that prevents | :31:09. | :31:12. | |
individuals reapplying for a silent once they have been rejected. We | :31:13. | :31:18. | |
have -- for asylum. To the Schengen information system, despite not | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
being a member of Schengen, which contains information on lost | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
identity documents and importantly, wanted persons. And the Minister's | :31:27. | :31:32. | |
own permanent secretary in his four to the most recent annual report to | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
the Home Office has stated that strengthening data ties with our | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
European allies was central to combating terrorism. I would be | :31:44. | :31:49. | |
grateful if the minister when he sums up confirms whether we also | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
have access to these databases outside the European Union. And if | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
so, will they come at a financial cost? I am most grateful to my | :31:57. | :32:01. | |
honourable friend, she is making an impressive and powerful speech on | :32:02. | :32:04. | |
this issue. Some of us may just not need to speak, but I'm sure that | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
will not stop her speaking! Can I just say to her on the issue, at the | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
moment someone arrested in London within three minutes, if a German | :32:17. | :32:25. | |
citizen, we'll be to know exactly what their previous convictions are. | :32:26. | :32:28. | |
We will want an arrangement that is just as good if we are no longer to | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
have the access that we have at the moment. The honourable gentleman, my | :32:34. | :32:38. | |
honourable friend, is absolutely right. But we're not getting any | :32:39. | :32:41. | |
guarantees from our government that this is what they're going to be | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
able to provide. There is still a more general problem, or that there | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
are even negotiating for it. There is even more general problem about | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
access to the data we need to combat crime and keep us safe. Even if we | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
have access to European databases outside the EU, we may not have too | :33:00. | :33:05. | |
-- be able to use them. That is because the European data protection | :33:06. | :33:09. | |
law is clear that no information can be handed to a third country, which | :33:10. | :33:16. | |
we will be, that does not Hetty evils of privacy. And while our | :33:17. | :33:21. | |
government has said -- adhered to EU laws of privacy. By the government | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
said will adhere at least until the point of Brexit, we did not know | :33:28. | :33:29. | |
that they intend to do so afterwards. We certainly knows what | :33:30. | :33:34. | |
happens if our data laws do not adhere to European privacy laws. The | :33:35. | :33:38. | |
European Court of Justice will simply invalidate any data sharing | :33:39. | :33:45. | |
agreement, as it has done for the so-called agreement between the EU | :33:46. | :33:51. | |
and the US. What guarantees will the government put in place to ensure | :33:52. | :33:56. | |
that information our police and security agencies need from the | :33:57. | :33:58. | |
European Union databases will not also be turned off when they leave? | :33:59. | :34:06. | |
In conclusion, we have some very deep concerns that our ability to | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
protect our citizens will be made harder when they leave the European | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
Union. And we need reassurance from the government that it intends to | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
reduce or eliminate this risk through its negotiations on Brexit. | :34:20. | :34:24. | |
It's one thing to have our prosperity under threat from the | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
complexities of maintaining access to the single market. And frankly, | :34:29. | :34:33. | |
that's bad enough. But it's quite another to have our security and | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
their very lives of our citizens under threat due to the complexities | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
of maintaining cross-border cooperation between our police and | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
security forces not been properly considered and worked out before | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
leaving. I quote again from the Centre for European reform. "Justice | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
And home affairs is not like trade, which creates winners and losers. | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
The only losers from increased cooperation in law enforcement are | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
criminals themselves". So my question to the Minister is simple: | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
what guarantees will he give that Britain's security will not be | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
compromised by us leaving the European Union? Order. I have now to | :35:16. | :35:25. | |
announce the result on the deferred decision, the ayes were 299, the | :35:26. | :35:32. | |
noes Wessex. In England, the ayes were 280, and of the noes were six | :35:33. | :35:42. | |
-- the noes 's work six. If I may say so to the honourable lady, whose | :35:43. | :35:48. | |
speech I listen to, I am for my own part completely content of these | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
matters should be left should be left in the safe hands of the | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
Minister of State, who knows exactly what needs to be done. I am most | :35:56. | :36:02. | |
grateful for this opportunity to say a few brief words following my right | :36:03. | :36:06. | |
honourable friend the Prime Minister's excellent, bold and | :36:07. | :36:10. | |
comprehensive speech yesterday. And to set out a few thoughts on wider | :36:11. | :36:13. | |
security and co-operation after Brexit. In the Brexit negotiations, | :36:14. | :36:21. | |
it will be necessary for us to set up the basis of our future | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
relationship as is described in Article 50. I believe that our | :36:26. | :36:28. | |
national interests in sustaining to the very highest degree and indeed | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
to carrying forward into the future, the highest possible degree of joint | :36:34. | :36:39. | |
action on Justice, home affairs, security cooperation and of | :36:40. | :36:42. | |
scientific research and innovation, and indeed on many other areas of | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
common and important interest. I congratulate my right honourable | :36:48. | :36:49. | |
friend the Prime Minister on the clear and concise way in which she | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
set up the government's position. And whilst I was a staunch Remainer, | :36:55. | :37:00. | |
I absolutely accept the vote of the referendum, and the need now for the | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
government to get on with it. As Churchill once said, if there is a | :37:05. | :37:10. | |
there in your bedroom, it is not a matter for speculation. At the same | :37:11. | :37:16. | |
time as these are difficult and conduct negotiations on trade and | :37:17. | :37:19. | |
all the myriad other issues take place, this is an important time for | :37:20. | :37:25. | |
us to set out, as the Prime Minister did in her speech, a clear case for | :37:26. | :37:32. | |
a very close partnership and a new relationship of cooperation between | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
members of the European Union and the UK. Indeed, in my view, it | :37:36. | :37:40. | |
should be as close as any sovereign country can be. In terms of military | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
affairs, free trade and security cooperation. In my view, this type | :37:46. | :37:51. | |
of work with our friends Germany and France and others, and in other | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
countries, is of the first importance. And our initiatives | :37:56. | :37:58. | |
which in my view would be widely welcomed in Europe, what running in | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
parallel with the rather more complex and tricky negotiations of | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
the Article 50 transaction. Here is something about which Britain can | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
bring something very positive and very useful and of proved worth to | :38:12. | :38:18. | |
the table. Thus in my judgment, we should aim to maintain our excellent | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
cooperation on security as it is now, and indeed to enhance it | :38:23. | :38:30. | |
further, including during the discussion of the new settlement. On | :38:31. | :38:34. | |
many of the issues, we will continue to have an important interest in | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
shaping EU policies after we leave. But clearly, the United Kingdom is | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
an important influence on European security agenda, and it will remain | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
considerable given our position as Nato's most capable and willing | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
European power. The recent deployments of Typhoon aircraft to | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
Remainiac Army personnel to eastern Poland, -- to Romania. And soon the | :38:59. | :39:07. | |
deployment of a full battalion of 800 men to Estonia. All served to | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
underline our profound commitment to the effort. Inevitably once the UK | :39:12. | :39:19. | |
exits the EU, it will become harder for us to translate this into an | :39:20. | :39:26. | |
important commitment into political influence. It is thus even more | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
imperative that our partners and friends understand that it is our | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
intention to continue the closest possible relationship in these areas | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
to our mutual interest. As the Prime Minister rightly said yesterday in | :39:40. | :39:41. | |
her speech, she wants Britain to be the best friend and neighbour of our | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
European partners. And a country that reaches out beyond the borders | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
of Europe, too. And my fervent hope that our European friends will | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
understand that it is our strongest wish that we play from the outside | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
what role we can in making sure that the UPN union succeeds. Yes, of | :40:02. | :40:08. | |
course. -- the European Union. Would he agrees me that we need to put all | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
the pressure we can on President come to make sure that Nato stays in | :40:13. | :40:16. | |
place and we build on our security -- president Trump. There is a fear | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
that he may not, in which case the pressures change. I very strongly | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
agree with the honourable gentleman, and I think it is very important. I | :40:24. | :40:28. | |
have high hopes that the Prime Minister when she goes to visit | :40:29. | :40:31. | |
President Trump will of course be making this point very clearly I | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
hope that he will say something in his inauguration speech which will | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
clarify what he meant. I'm not offended by that. Discussing with my | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
honourable friend the chairman of the Defence Select Committee. I | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
don't think he meant it as an insult. It is true there is much | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
about nature that is highly unsatisfactory. Not the least that | :40:54. | :40:59. | |
many of them don't pay their fair whack -- about Nato. Nato is not | :41:00. | :41:04. | |
equipped or is far advanced as Russia, for example, in the new | :41:05. | :41:07. | |
asymmetric hybrid versions of warfare that we are going to have to | :41:08. | :41:12. | |
contend with as is seen in the unbelievably bad behaviour in the | :41:13. | :41:18. | |
Crimea. Before he gets back to his main oration, I would like to draw | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
attention to the context in which President Trump was reported, where | :41:25. | :41:31. | |
he says that Nato, he says, is extremely important to him. When | :41:32. | :41:36. | |
he's talking about the word obsolete, he seems to be using it in | :41:37. | :41:39. | |
a sense that he's saying that Nato needs not to be abolished, but to | :41:40. | :41:44. | |
modernise to face new threats. I think actually, we shouldn't read | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
too much into the individual nuances of particular words that he speaks, | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
because nuance does not seem to his style. I think my right honourable | :41:54. | :42:01. | |
friend is spot on with that, anyway I'm sure that these matters will | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
play out. I look at the wonderful success of the security architecture | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
designed by those wise men and women after the last war, the last Great | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
War, one looks at how well it has served the world in peace, in good | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
times and bad times. It would seem to me not to be a sensible time to | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
do anything other than support. Therefore, with the threats to our | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
common security becoming even more serious, and in many ways in my view | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
more insidious, our response cannot surely be to cooperate with one | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
another less, but to work together more. As the Prime Minister said in | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
her speech yesterday, we are proud of the Royal Britain has prayed, and | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
we will continue to play in promoting Europe's security -- the | :42:47. | :42:53. | |
role Britain has played. Whether it is implement in sanctions against | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
Russia following its action in the Crimea, working for peace and | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
stability in the Balkans, extraordinary important piece of | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
work right now, or securing Europe's external borders. We will continue | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
to work closely with our European allies in foreign and defence | :43:11. | :43:14. | |
policy, even as the leave the EU itself. To conclude, I hope that the | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
Minister will agree with me that it is very important that we | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
demonstrate even during the heat of the negotiations the inevitable heat | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
of the negotiations, are absolute determination to be good partners | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
and good friends, allies and friends to Europe, and that we are as my | :43:36. | :43:38. | |
right honourable friend so rightly said, leaving the European Union but | :43:39. | :43:43. | |
most emphatically not leaving Europe. It's a pleasure and an | :43:44. | :43:49. | |
honour to follow the right honourable member for Mid Sussex, | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
I'm sure we find much about which we disagree, but his experience in | :43:55. | :43:57. | |
these matters shines through. I would also like to compliment the | :43:58. | :44:01. | |
honourable member for West Ham on her speech. I think it was a fine | :44:02. | :44:06. | |
speech and there was much to agree about in it. This debate takes place | :44:07. | :44:10. | |
against the background of the Prime Minister's speech yesterday, which | :44:11. | :44:15. | |
was made not to this house but to an invited audience. Although we had an | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
opportunity to question the minister, the Secretary of State for | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
exiting the European Union yesterday, this House has yet to | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
debate the plan for year event Defra for leaving European Union. While it | :44:29. | :44:36. | |
is of utmost importance we debate the implications on justice, it is | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
more important that we should soon be involved to debate the overall | :44:40. | :44:43. | |
plan for Brexit that was finally laid before us yesterday. Scotland | :44:44. | :44:47. | |
didn't vote for the direction of travel set out in the Prime | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
Minister's speech yesterday. We don't believe it's in our national | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
interest, but we also believe that decisions on this topic in relation | :44:55. | :44:59. | |
to Europe, the European Union, are not being driven by the National -- | :45:00. | :45:04. | |
rational best interests of the whole UK, but rather by the obsessions of | :45:05. | :45:09. | |
the hard right of the Tory party. We strongly believe that the best way | :45:10. | :45:14. | |
to build a prosperous and equal, a safe and secure United Kingdom is to | :45:15. | :45:19. | |
be a full member of the European Union. Which failing, to be a member | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
of the single market and to cooperate widely on matters such as | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
security, law enforcement and criminal justice. That's why the | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
Scottish Government put a plan to the whole of the UK before | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
Christmas, suggesting a compromise whereby we might the whole of UK | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
stay in the single market and continue to cooperate on matters | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
such as under discussion today. It seems clear from the Prime Minister | :45:46. | :45:48. | |
said yesterday that she's not interested in that as an option, so | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
we fall back on our fallback position, whereby we ask the British | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
government to consider allowing Scotland to stay in the single | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
market allowing Scotland to continue co-operation on these matters. | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
But, Madam Deputy Speaker, to turn to the subject in hand, the UK | :46:04. | :46:10. | |
Government should not try to lull people into a false sense of | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
security in thinking that continued cooperation on the matter is we are | :46:16. | :46:19. | |
debating today will be easy in the event of a hard Brexit. It's not | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
just my opinion, it was the opinion of the House of Lords European Union | :46:26. | :46:27. | |
committee which published a report on Brexit and future EU UK security | :46:28. | :46:33. | |
and police co-operation. They noted the United Kingdom shares a mutual | :46:34. | :46:41. | |
interest in maintaining police and security cooperation after Brexit. | :46:42. | :46:47. | |
They warned against any suggestion that this understanding of mutual | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
self interest might lead to a false sense of optimism as to how | :46:53. | :46:55. | |
negotiations in this area might proceed. This raises questions | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
already alluded to about the extent to which the United Kingdom could | :47:02. | :47:05. | |
continue to benefit from the same level of cooperation outside the EU. | :47:06. | :47:10. | |
It's already been pointed out in relation to you report that | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
associate members do not have access to the same data sharing | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
information. Data sharing is very central to this debate, Madam Deputy | :47:19. | :47:25. | |
Speaker. There will be limits to how closely the United Kingdom and EU 27 | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
can work together. If we in the UK are no longer accountable to an | :47:31. | :47:33. | |
subject to the oversight and adjudication of the same | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
supranational institutions, including, perhaps most importantly, | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
the Court of Justice of the European Union. We saw just before Christmas | :47:43. | :47:49. | |
that the Court of Justice of the European Union took rather dim view | :47:50. | :47:51. | |
of the provisions for data collection and retention in the | :47:52. | :47:57. | |
investigatory Powers act. Many of us had warned that would occur at the | :47:58. | :48:00. | |
time the bill was going through the house. If the United Kingdom does | :48:01. | :48:04. | |
not comply with EU law on data sharing and privacy protection then | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
our partners will not be able in terms of the laws by which they are | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
bound to share information with us. This is not about protection of | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
civil liberties, it's crucial to security and issues of law | :48:21. | :48:25. | |
enforcement. Much is often made in this general debate about the | :48:26. | :48:28. | |
European Union of the opportunities that lie for the United Kingdom | :48:29. | :48:37. | |
beyond Europe. It is sometimes suggested we should focus more on | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
our security arrangements with the five eyes countries, the United | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
States of America. It is true some countries such as the USA have shown | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
there is a precedent for bilateral agreements on the transfer of data. | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
But these presidents don't offer the quick fix some suggest. These | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
agreements have taken many years to negotiate and in some cases are not | :49:01. | :49:06. | |
enforced. Why withdraw from the system we have so painstakingly | :49:07. | :49:12. | |
contributed to four years to seek something else which is far from | :49:13. | :49:16. | |
guaranteed? As a matter of security we can't afford to have an | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
operational break in the access we currently have two these EU | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
cross-border tools, because the part of the day-to-day work of the police | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
force at present. We have to look at the figures on stats produced by the | :49:30. | :49:33. | |
Home Office and Scottish Government to see how important Europol and the | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
European West warrant are. It is sometimes also suggested our | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
partnerships with other countries such as the five eyes partnership | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
will somehow replace or supersede what we have in place with the | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
European Union. It won't work either because the five eyes partnership, | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
important as it is, doesn't cover all aspects of our security. For | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
example it doesn't cover day-to-day policing, or all aspects of it. The | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
National crime agency has said one of their issues of concern, an issue | :50:07. | :50:12. | |
of concern for their five eyes partners, is that the lack of the | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
United Kingdom at Europol will impact on the other five eyes | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
countries' relationships because often they use the United Kingdom as | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
a proxy for getting work done at Europol when the United Kingdom is | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
working with the other five eyes countries. These are the realities | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
of the situation and they are not just difficulties that we in the | :50:34. | :50:39. | |
Scottish National party are highlighting, and the Labour Party, | :50:40. | :50:42. | |
they are difficulties which have been highlighted by the National | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
crime agency, by Rob Wainwright, and by a House of Lords committee that | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
has looked into these matters in some detail. The need to meet EU | :50:54. | :51:02. | |
data protection standards in order to exchange data for law enforcement | :51:03. | :51:08. | |
purposes means that if we leave the UK, if the UK leaves the EU, the UK | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
will still need to subject itself to data protection law, which it will | :51:14. | :51:20. | |
have no role in shaping. I asked the people on the benches opposite, is | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
that what they really want? I realise they have concerns about the | :51:26. | :51:28. | |
way laws are made in the European Union and I realise it's pretty | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
obvious they don't like the Court of Justice in the European Union very | :51:33. | :51:36. | |
much. If we as a union of nations want to continue to operate security | :51:37. | :51:39. | |
and law enforcement with our European Union partners, as I said | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
earlier, data sharing is key. We'll have to subject ourselves to the | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
data sharing rules made by the other 27 member states into which we are | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
going to have no input. If we insist on going our separate way, as we've | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
done with the IP act, going beyond what European law sanctions, the | :51:59. | :52:03. | |
other 27 member states won't want to share information with us because, | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
as I said earlier, it'll be in breach of their own laws on data | :52:08. | :52:14. | |
sharing and data protection. Madam Deputy Speaker, these are very, very | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
real concerns. As I said earlier, my intervention on the honourable lady | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
who speaks for the Labour front bench, what we heard from the | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
minister earlier was a very good speech about the advantages of | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
Europol and other European Union institutions to the lighted kingdom. | :52:32. | :52:38. | |
-- United Kingdom. What we didn't hear was how he proposes to preserve | :52:39. | :52:45. | |
those advantages in the event of the hard Brexit which we heard about for | :52:46. | :52:48. | |
the first time in some detail yesterday. What we need to hear | :52:49. | :52:55. | |
before this afternoon is not United Kingdom government's wish list, but | :52:56. | :53:01. | |
the mechanics of how the United Kingdom government intends to | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
achieve a continuation of the level of security, protection and law | :53:06. | :53:11. | |
enforcement information sharing we currently enjoy with the other 27 EU | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
member states, if they are intent on the task which the Prime Minister | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
set out yesterday. We've heard nothing so far except that they want | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
a bespoke deal. We'll wait with bated breath to hear about more than | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
that when the Minister sums up. Robert Weale. Always a pleasure to | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
follow the honourable lady member for Edinburgh South West. She's a | :53:36. | :53:40. | |
distinguished practical lawyer and I agree with her on some of the | :53:41. | :53:43. | |
practical issues which arise and I'll come back to some of those in a | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
moment. Can I first of all say how much I endorse the views of my right | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
honourable friend the member for Mid Sussex in relation both to our | :53:51. | :53:57. | |
mutual situation, having forced to remain in the European Union but | :53:58. | :54:00. | |
lost, accepting the verdict of the people, commending the Prime | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
Minister upon what I think is a realistic, practical and determined | :54:06. | :54:08. | |
approach to taking that issue forward. And upon the importance of | :54:09. | :54:12. | |
our Nato relationships. He's much more of an expert on those matters | :54:13. | :54:16. | |
Bandai but I endorse what he says and perhaps I add this one word. Not | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
only must we endorse and strengthen our Nato relationships, we must | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
maintain the best possible relationships with our colleagues | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
who happen to be both members of the European Union and Nato. Not least | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
our nearest neighbour, France, which is the other great military power of | :54:34. | :54:38. | |
Europe. Nicola Power, significant military power, member of the United | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
Nations security council. -- nuclear power. He will gently remind other | :54:43. | :54:51. | |
material colleagues we have a long history with France and are on the | :54:52. | :54:57. | |
same side in the Second World War. -- ministerial colleagues. That | :54:58. | :55:01. | |
said, I'll pass to the specific issue I'd like to return to, which | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
is the question of law enforcement and criminal justice cooperation. | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
That has concerned me not only through my years at the criminal | :55:11. | :55:15. | |
bar, but the Justice select committee took evidence in the last | :55:16. | :55:18. | |
week or so, we'll be publishing our report soon. I don't expect the | :55:19. | :55:24. | |
Minister to reveal the mechanism by which we achieve our objectives, | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
because we're at the beginning of a process and the Prime Minister was | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
right to set out if you like, the plan, and I expect there will be a | :55:34. | :55:36. | |
lot more detail we have to think about. What I want to do in this | :55:37. | :55:39. | |
short contribution is to flag up some of the issues I hope the | :55:40. | :55:42. | |
Minister and his colleagues will bear in mind when we look at the | :55:43. | :55:46. | |
negotiations, and how we put that plan into reality. The Minister of | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
State for the Home Office started by talking about the importance of the | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
European arrest warrant. It is recognised by the Prime Minister. | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
She is right. We must do all that is necessary to remain within the | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
European arrest warrant. It involves some compromises with purity of any | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
break. I will be prepared to make that, as I would in relation to | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
other matters, to achieve the practical objective of keeping our | :56:15. | :56:17. | |
country safe. They are absolutely critical. As I said to the Minister | :56:18. | :56:23. | |
of State, much of these issues are not about our domestically | :56:24. | :56:30. | |
determined criminal law being over weened, supervened, by some | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
international system. These are matters of practical cooperation in | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
tracking down the rest of subjects, suspects, the exchange of | :56:40. | :56:42. | |
information and the enforcement of Court judgments to everybody's | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
mutual advantage. In all member states of the EU have varying | :56:47. | :56:50. | |
degrees of approach to the criminal justice system. Ours is particularly | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
different because of our common law system of which we are immensely | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
proud. It does not mean, and I hope people will never suspect it means | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
the systems of other European member states should automatically be | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
regarded as inferior to ours. Some of us occasionally in this country | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
are too sniffy about the quality of the justice systems of other | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
European member states. I have no hesitation whatever in commending | :57:17. | :57:19. | |
the integrity of the justice systems of France, Germany, Italy, many | :57:20. | :57:27. | |
others. As I would to those of Scotland, Ireland or Northern | :57:28. | :57:27. | |
Ireland, for that matter. Cheesemaking is a very good points | :57:28. | :57:36. | |
but would he not concur as a fellow member of the Council of Europe, | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
some of the prison systems he and I have both probably visited simply do | :57:41. | :57:44. | |
not come up to British standards. With Greece in particular. I thought | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
that might be the issue that was going to be raised and that is why I | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
was going to say, firstly, it doesn't alter the importance of the | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
criminal justice cooperation. Secondly, where that has been | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
relevant as a criticism of the arrest warrant in the past, for | :58:02. | :58:09. | |
example, it is past history, because what's not often recognised enough, | :58:10. | :58:13. | |
there are important amendments made to the European arrest warrant in | :58:14. | :58:19. | |
2014. When we had evidence from both the criminal lawyers Society and the | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
criminal bar Association, they concurred very strongly the | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
amendments in 2014 had removed the risks that got the unfortunate Mr | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
sinew in his position. I give way to my honourable friend. It's a great | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
pleasure to serve under his chairmanship. I think the point the | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
honourable member for Monmouth was making in his intervention on the | :58:45. | :58:48. | |
Minister, which is a cause for concern for me, is sometimes | :58:49. | :58:54. | |
countries in the EU issue their European arrest warrant for very | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
minor offences. The example of the individual who had a warrant issued | :59:01. | :59:07. | |
because he had stolen a bicycle. It's important individual countries | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
focus on the reason they take up their arrest warrants. I've always | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
regarded this as a serious thing when a European arrest warrant is | :59:15. | :59:17. | |
issued, not for the minor offences some countries use. The important | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
thing there, and I accept the issue is a significant one, those two | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
amendments did two things. Firstly Beirut any risk of extradition | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
before commencement of proceedings. Secondly, they introduced in the UK | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
a proportionality filter. It would be a better if other members of the | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
European arrest warrant had a proportionality filter. The evidence | :59:44. | :59:46. | |
we had from Professor Wilson of the Northumbria University criminal | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
Justice Centre, it seems even Poland, which has resisted | :59:52. | :59:53. | |
proportionality filters in the past, is moving in that direction. We're | :59:54. | :00:00. | |
in an improving situation. The fact we have those two important | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
safeguard is significant and it's important the European arrest | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
warrant system is a court driven system, subject to judicial | :00:08. | :00:12. | |
supervision, rather than being an executive act of extradition. That's | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
like it'll be undesirable for us to lose the advantage of the European | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
arrest warrant and have to fall back to the 1957 extradition convention, | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
a purely administrative act through diplomatic channels without the | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
protection of court intervention or review and was also much more | :00:32. | :00:32. | |
cumbersome. I'll give way. It has been a pleasure to serve | :00:33. | :00:44. | |
under the fine gentleman. I wonder if he will comment on some of the | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
comments made by my colleague, notwithstanding the clear desire of | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
my colic to stay within the European arrest warrant, there will be issues | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
with the data-sharing regimes in the European Union and the UK, and how | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
he thinks that could be reconciled following the UK leaving the | :01:03. | :01:04. | |
European Union. It is clear from the evidence we have that the government | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
will have to take that on board. We will have to add header not just to | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
European standards of data protection, -- red hair, for them to | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
be able to share with us, maybe in relation to other third-party | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
countries, that we and they have to be prepared to adhere to | :01:24. | :01:30. | |
international standards. That will also involve some form of | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
international adjudicative process, where there are disputes between | :01:36. | :01:37. | |
member states. Not going to try and tie the member down as to how best | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
we solve that, but there are serious issues that we have to have on the | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
board from day one in our negotiations. Equally, when they | :01:47. | :01:49. | |
talk about involvement with some of the other agents as we referred to, | :01:50. | :01:56. | |
a number of very valuable tools, there is a financial cost to the | :01:57. | :01:59. | |
development of those databases, and I certainly would say to the | :02:00. | :02:03. | |
government, do not be afraid to continue to make financial | :02:04. | :02:06. | |
contribution to the development and maintenance of those databases. | :02:07. | :02:09. | |
That'll be a very small price to pay in terms of the advantage of | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
protection to the British public. I think there is common ground on the | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
objective of the European arrest warrant. I want to just two raids | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
some practical issues will have to grasp if we are to succeed -- I just | :02:22. | :02:31. | |
want to raise. Can I just refer also to the other matters of concern. | :02:32. | :02:34. | |
Cooperation between the courts, that is involving the continued | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
membership or association of Eurojust. There is a present for | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
non-member states continue to cooperate with Eurojust. Norway has | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
a cooperation agreement, and has liaison prosecutors based at | :02:51. | :02:55. | |
Eurojust. We would if we leave the EU, as it stands have to move from | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
being National college members, but it could have that Norwegian star | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
status. Perhaps we should be bold though untried idea to remain -- | :03:04. | :03:14. | |
Norwegian style status. I hear what the gentlemen are saying about | :03:15. | :03:18. | |
Norway, but is he aware that the Prime Minister in her former role as | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
Home Secretary was very disparaging about the abilities of Norway and | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
Switzerland outside the EU bloc, because they don't have access to | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
all the tools and have to do things like come under the jurisdiction of | :03:30. | :03:32. | |
the European Court of Justice while not having the same input into the | :03:33. | :03:44. | |
lawmaking processes. Prior to the referendum,... I accept the verdict | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
of the British people, and we must find a practical means of achieving | :03:52. | :03:55. | |
the objective that we want, and will be better to get something far | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
better than what Norway has, therefore we should start by wanting | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
to be National associates. We have nothing to lose from pressing flak | :04:05. | :04:13. | |
from the beginning. In April last, the Prime Minister's referred to the | :04:14. | :04:20. | |
whole system, the prisoner transfer unit, joint investigation teams and | :04:21. | :04:25. | |
others, she referred to all of those matters in these terms, these are | :04:26. | :04:30. | |
practical measures that promote effective cooperation between | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
different European law enforcement organisations, and if we're not part | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
of them, Britain would be less so. As Francis Fitzgibbons, chair of the | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
criminal bar Association, that'll be a good starting point to bring the | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
whole area into greater prominence since and a great starting point for | :04:49. | :04:53. | |
our objectives. Repeatedly, the witnesses that we had to just a | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
select committee said that this is part of a mutually reinforcing | :04:58. | :05:04. | |
system of justice cooperation. The information exchanges, the ability | :05:05. | :05:08. | |
to enforce court judgment, the ability for example to seek a | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
European information or to come to get evidence from abroad, these are | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
all part of the same process. And that is why it is critical that we | :05:17. | :05:24. | |
set the highest possible level of objective for seeking our continued | :05:25. | :05:29. | |
engagement with these matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is an important | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
debate because it is an immensely important topic. Those of us who now | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
do want to move on constructively from what's been a bruising | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
experience for this country on any view, want to do so on the basis of | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
an ambition to protect the country, but also to recognise that both our | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
judicial system and our police force is immensely highly regarding, not | :05:51. | :05:54. | |
just in Europe, but internationally. We have something to bring to the | :05:55. | :05:57. | |
table as well -- highly regarded. As I hope the Minister will take this | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
point on board in a bold and highly ambitious negotiation. I wish him | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
and his colleagues were with it. It's a pleasure to follow my select | :06:10. | :06:13. | |
committee chaired colleague, the rumble member for Bromley and | :06:14. | :06:17. | |
Chislehurst. That the honourable member. I agree with him on many | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
points you made about the detail of the importance of continued European | :06:21. | :06:25. | |
cooperation as well. Like him, I voted to trigger Article 50 by the | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
end of March, whilst like him I wanted us to remain, I believe we | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
should respect the referendum result. That means getting on with | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
the detailed and hard work of how we get the best possible deal for | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
Britain outside the EU. And I would join the member for Edinburgh South | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
West in putting out the caution that we should have in assuming that some | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
of this is going to be easy. To get the detail right particularly on the | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
important law enforcement issues, where if we don't have the right | :07:00. | :07:02. | |
kind of legal basis for the corporation that we want to see, we | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
simply won't be able to use the information or intelligence that we | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
have in order to lock people up who have committed crimes, in order to | :07:11. | :07:14. | |
take the action that we need to keep people safe. I had this is an error | :07:15. | :07:19. | |
where there is considerable consensus about the objectives that | :07:20. | :07:22. | |
we should have, not just across this has in terms of our objectives in | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
cooperating to keep Britain safe, but also across Europe -- this | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
House, where that cooperation between Britain and other European | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
countries has saved people's lives, has protected us from terror | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
threats, from serious crime as well. And the Prime Minister is right when | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
she said yesterday that with the threats to our common security | :07:44. | :07:46. | |
becoming more serious, our response cannot be to cooperate with one | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
another less, but to work together more. But so far, we have heard very | :07:51. | :07:57. | |
little from the Home Secretary and with the greatest respect for the | :07:58. | :08:01. | |
policing minister, I am disappointed that the Home Secretary has not come | :08:02. | :08:07. | |
to the house today the debate. Given the seriousness of these issues and | :08:08. | :08:10. | |
also the fact that the Prime Minister highlighted, the importance | :08:11. | :08:13. | |
of Parliamentary solitary as part of this debate, I do think we do need | :08:14. | :08:19. | |
to hear more from the Home Secretary, will be calling her to | :08:20. | :08:30. | |
come to the select committee -- the parliamentary sovereignty. It is a | :08:31. | :08:33. | |
disappointment that there is no Home Office minister here for a debate on | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
something which will have huge repercussions for our security | :08:40. | :08:41. | |
operations for very many decades to come. Obviously the work on security | :08:42. | :08:51. | |
will sit as part of a wider government plan for getting the best | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
Brexit deal and the best Brexit settlement. Yesterday the Prime | :08:55. | :09:00. | |
Minister talked particularly about trade and pledged to get her free | :09:01. | :09:04. | |
trade and a better overall deal for British people's jobs outside the | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
single market and Customs union. The government will know there is | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
considerable concern about whether ditching these long established | :09:12. | :09:14. | |
trade and customs deal is really going to deliver us a better deal | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
for jobs, employment protection and environmental standards here in | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
Britain. Her ministers will need to provide, considering -- Anita | :09:24. | :09:30. | |
provide considerably more evidence -- is a social and economic | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
standards that matter so not much -- so much as well. And the government | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
needs to say more about its approach to immigration. Among those who has | :09:41. | :09:42. | |
for some time believe that we needed to change free movement, and I think | :09:43. | :09:47. | |
there are particular concerns about unrestricted low skilled migration, | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
and we will need a sensible debate about how to get the best deal for | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
Britain on both jobs and immigration so that will benefit from | :09:55. | :09:57. | |
international talent and from economic trade as well. But there is | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
some confusion and some questions a result of mixed messages from the | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
government, it would be very helpful if the Minister could clarify as he | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
speaks from the Brexit department. With some suggesting that | :10:11. | :10:15. | |
immigration will not be part of the discussions and the negotiations | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
about trade, that these issues would be kept separate in the | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
negotiations. Others saying no, debate about future immigration | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
rules will be dealt with alongside the trade negotiations. It would be | :10:28. | :10:33. | |
fair important to understand whether the negotiations about customs union | :10:34. | :10:40. | |
and the single market are stand-alone trade negotiations, or | :10:41. | :10:42. | |
whether it will be a wider debate looking at options around | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
immigration and trade as well. Can I congratulate her on all the eggs and | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
watches doing as the chair of the home affairs select committee -- or | :10:52. | :11:01. | |
the excellent work she's doing. Especially with regards to the | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
rights of EU citizens, are going to have another debate? Or are we | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
supposed to discuss all these matters in this debate to do with | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
home affairs and Justice? Does she know? I think my honourable friend | :11:13. | :11:19. | |
and commend him for his many years of fantastic work on the home | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
affairs and select committee. No, I don't know what the plans are for | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
further debate about immigration. Maybe the Minister macro can | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
enlighten us, because clearly it will be one of the central issues to | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
be discussed. If it is included in the debate, that will affect the | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
kind of deal, the kind of agreement that we get, so it is important for | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
us to have some clarity. About what those plans are. Turning to these | :11:47. | :11:55. | |
crucial security issues. Shall be well aware that there are a number | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
of different options for immigration, from those in EU member | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
states and I'm sure she won't miss the opportunity to advertise the | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
Home Affairs Select Committee's big conversation going around the | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
country to discuss this issue, and indeed encourage honourable members | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
to contribute and their constituents to do so as well. He's exactly | :12:13. | :12:20. | |
right, and I'm glad that as a fellow member of the Home Affairs Select | :12:21. | :12:23. | |
Committee he has reminded me to say that this is something that is, I | :12:24. | :12:28. | |
think, going to need to involve people from right across the country | :12:29. | :12:32. | |
having their say. About what the right immigration options should be | :12:33. | :12:36. | |
for Britain, about we know that immigration is important for our | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
future but also needs to be controlled and managed in a way that | :12:40. | :12:42. | |
is fair. But people have different views about how that should happen. | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
My view is that there is actually rather more consensus than people | :12:46. | :12:49. | |
sometimes think, in the polarised debate that sometimes take place on | :12:50. | :12:52. | |
immigration. We do believe that all members of the House should have | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
their say as part of that, and we'll be holding regional hearings and | :12:58. | :13:00. | |
regional evidence since around the country and urging honourable | :13:01. | :13:05. | |
members to consult their members are not there want to see -- evidence | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
sessions. As part of the future arrangements. Let me turn to the | :13:11. | :13:18. | |
security issues. The Minister, policing Minister set out a very | :13:19. | :13:22. | |
broad brush approach, and my honourable friend the shadow | :13:23. | :13:27. | |
policing Minister set out a very forensic response, and a very | :13:28. | :13:31. | |
thorough and detailed set of questions that weren't really | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
addressed in the policing Minister's initial outlines. He talked about | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
the value of our relationships and of the importance of joint working. | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
But in these three crucial areas, Europol, the European arrest warrant | :13:46. | :13:48. | |
and on the databases, we do need much more reassurance from the | :13:49. | :13:54. | |
government that they're taking this immensely seriously, because it will | :13:55. | :13:56. | |
have huge implications for our security if we don't get this right. | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
On the Europol membership, there is no precedent for a non-EU member to | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
be in Europol. But I'd be grateful for confirmation from the Minister | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
that there is also nothing in the treaties that would rule this out. | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
So if we are looking for our bespoke arrangement, perhaps he could | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
confirm there is nothing to prevent as asking to continue our existing | :14:21. | :14:24. | |
Europol membership, given the crucial role that Britain has played | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
in shaping Europol in the first place, and in raising the standards | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
of policing and cross-border policing in other countries across | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
Europe to meet the standards that we have here in the cave. He will know, | :14:39. | :14:46. | |
to -- in the UK, the UK uses Europol more than almost any other country | :14:47. | :14:50. | |
in the EU, we provide more intelligence and play a leading role | :14:51. | :14:54. | |
as well. I'd have been involved in things like operation golf, | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
involving the Met and Europol, which rescued 28 children which are being | :15:01. | :15:09. | |
exploited by a remaining -- a Romanian criminal gang network. Also | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
an online child abuse network, leading to 200 rest in the UK. That | :15:14. | :15:21. | |
kind of work between Europol is immensely important. Urging | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
government to pursue full membership of Europol, and if not, something | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
that frankly looks like it, sounds like it and smells like it so that | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
it delivers exactly the kind of security arrangements that we have | :15:35. | :15:35. | |
at the moment. Secondly on the European arrest | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
warrant again, we need something that looks like it, feels like it, | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
sounds like it, smelt like it, that pretty much is the European arrest | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
warrant. And the idea of reinventing something from scratch, having to | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
renegotiate, as other countries like Norway and Iceland have done, has | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
taken them many years to do so and the length of time involved in | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
renegotiating those sort of extradition agreements, whether it's | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
with the rest of the EU or individual countries, can cause huge | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
long delays and considerable legal uncertainty as well. The government, | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
I know, is well aware of the importance of the European arrest | :16:15. | :16:21. | |
warrant. It was part of our discussion when we discussed that | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
over the last few years. I hope we'll continue to make sure that we | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
can respond to the up to 1000 European arrest warrant is each year | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
which involve us being able to deport two other countries. There | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
are suspected criminals who would otherwise be able to find greater | :16:41. | :16:45. | |
sanctuary here. The most challenging one of all, the one the police who | :16:46. | :16:50. | |
gave test Amir and evidence to the select committee raised, was in fact | :16:51. | :16:55. | |
the access to information and databases. And that shared | :16:56. | :16:58. | |
information across Europe. Here is what the deputy director of the | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
National crime agency said... He said, if we are curtailed in our | :17:04. | :17:07. | |
ability to access intelligent Systems, our overseas partners have | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
put in place, we may risk people hurting children or committing harm | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
because we cannot put that picture together. My response to you is: | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
yes, it increases the risk. The member for West Ham gave on account | :17:21. | :17:27. | |
of the debate are bases and the challenges they present. The second | :17:28. | :17:37. | |
generation Schengen information system, the Europol information | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
system. On the Europe or information system, some of Europe or's | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
cooperation partners can store and query the data in the centre but | :17:48. | :17:51. | |
they can't have direct access, it's the direct access that is what is so | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
important. From the passenger name record directive, so many of these | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
directives. If we are outside the EU and trying to arrange a bespoke new | :18:04. | :18:09. | |
arrangement for the European Commission, be forced to make | :18:10. | :18:16. | |
adequacy assessments. Once we check article 50 and we're setting out new | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
arrangements from outside EU, we will expect to have to have an | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
adequacy assessments by the European Commission under their legal | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
arrangements. However, as the member for Edinburgh South West pointed | :18:31. | :18:33. | |
out, there are some challenges with getting that data adequacy | :18:34. | :18:38. | |
assessment in place. And whilst this ought to be the kind of thing that, | :18:39. | :18:44. | |
given our shared objectives in security and intelligence | :18:45. | :18:47. | |
cooperation, all of it ought to be solvable. It's another reason why | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
this takes time in order to get it right and why we can't simply assume | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
because we have the same shared objectives, therefore it'll all be | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
solved and all come out in the wash. And so I think if our objectives are | :19:00. | :19:07. | |
to stay in Europe, in the European arrest warrant, and to keep access | :19:08. | :19:13. | |
to those crucial databases, actually it would be helpful if the | :19:14. | :19:16. | |
government could say that and could say those are our objectives, rather | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
than simply the broadbrush statements which are simply that we | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
want to continue with cooperation around security. It would give | :19:25. | :19:29. | |
greater certainty for the police and law enforcement officers about what | :19:30. | :19:31. | |
they should be focusing on and what they should be planning for as well. | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
The Minister will know the importance of, if we're not able to | :19:37. | :19:40. | |
do this, having transitional arrangements in place because if we | :19:41. | :19:43. | |
don't people's lives will be at risk. We leave with one final | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
thought about the way in which the negotiations take place. I'm | :19:48. | :19:51. | |
worried, I've raised my concern about Home Office ministers and the | :19:52. | :19:55. | |
Home Secretary not being here, I'm concerned because there is shared | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
agreement on the objectives both in the and across Europe that somehow | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
this will be treated as a lower priority in the negotiations. It's | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
not as controversial as some of the other issues that we will all row | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
about. It's not going to be, therefore, one of the main thing is | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
the Prime Minister will keep her attention on continually. However it | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
has to be taken immensely seriously otherwise it'll slip between peoples | :20:19. | :20:21. | |
fingers and we'll end up with it not being ready in time, the details not | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
ready in time, and not sorted out. My other concern is this should not | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
be used as a bargaining chip in the wider negotiations. There will be | :20:33. | :20:35. | |
all kinds of rows and debates and trade-offs that will take place | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
across Europe around trade, around immigration rules, those sorts of | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
things, but we should not have trade-offs around security. It would | :20:44. | :20:48. | |
be better if these issues around security, corporation, could be | :20:49. | :20:51. | |
treated as a separate part of the negotiations and could be dealt with | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
as rapidly as possible to get some early security and show the | :20:55. | :21:02. | |
government is putting sufficient attention into it. In the end, we | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
will hold further evidence sessions as part of our select committee and | :21:07. | :21:09. | |
I'm sure other select committees and other members of the house will be | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
scrutinising this in detail. It is the final thought, which is that | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
Britain voted to leave the EU, nobody voted to make Britain less | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
safe. That is why safety and security, you know, will be | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
something the government will take seriously. It needs to be | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
sufficiently seriously to make sure we don't get an inadvertent gap in | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
that security arrangement that ends up putting lives at risk. In the end | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
when we are dealing with terror, security, cross-border crime, this | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
is about the government's first duty, to keep its citizens safe. | :21:45. | :21:50. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker it is a pleasure to follow the Right | :21:51. | :21:51. | |
Honourable member for I agree with pretty much everything | :21:52. | :22:01. | |
she said. During the referendum campaign one of the aspects that did | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
not feature particularly dominantly was security. I can understand why | :22:07. | :22:09. | |
that was the case, a lot of what we've been talking about today is | :22:10. | :22:13. | |
very complex and doesn't fit easily into a short sound bite. But also | :22:14. | :22:16. | |
because a lot of the security cooperation we have is done not to | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
our membership of the EU, our security against military threats | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
from other countries is protected by our membership of Nato and other | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
alliances and bilateral relationships. Our security in terms | :22:29. | :22:33. | |
of terror arrest is dealt with on a bilateral basis. Country to country | :22:34. | :22:40. | |
between intelligence agencies. And also through multilateral agreements | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
such as the five eyes intelligence alliance comprising Australia, | :22:45. | :22:47. | |
Canada, Great Britain, New Zealand and the USA. These relationships are | :22:48. | :22:54. | |
entirely separate to our membership of the EU and are in no way | :22:55. | :22:57. | |
compromised by this country's decision to leave and to that extent | :22:58. | :23:01. | |
I never subscribed to the claims of some on my side of the referendum | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
campaign, Remain, that we would suddenly become a very dangerous | :23:06. | :23:09. | |
place in the event of a boat to leave or indeed a ridiculous | :23:10. | :23:11. | |
hyperbole that Isis would be delighted by a lever vote. -- vote | :23:12. | :23:19. | |
to leave. Mark Rowley the Assistant Commissioner for operations at the | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
Met police reported there had been an increasing cooperation between | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
European member state police and intelligence agencies since the vote | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
to leave and this cooperation on an ad hoc basis was no doubt do to and | :23:33. | :23:40. | |
necessitated by intelligence shortcomings before some of the | :23:41. | :23:42. | |
recent terrorist atrocities in Europe. To focus on military and | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
high-level intelligence cooperation and counterterrorism that takes | :23:48. | :23:50. | |
place outside the EU architecture would be to ignore the many policing | :23:51. | :23:57. | |
and criminal justice measures inside the EU structures that we're today. | :23:58. | :24:02. | |
And that makes the police's practical work keeping us safe | :24:03. | :24:07. | |
easier and more efficient. I've spoken to a number of police | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
officers in my previous work as a barrister, used to act for and | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
against the police regularly. I know many police officers, locally and | :24:16. | :24:18. | |
outside my own area, some who voted to leave, some who voted to remain. | :24:19. | :24:25. | |
All of them had in common a clear desire for our existing police and | :24:26. | :24:28. | |
criminal Justice cooperation to stay the same or be replicated as closely | :24:29. | :24:33. | |
as possible. Indeed just last night I was speaking to Gavin Thomas, | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
Chief Superintendent and president of the police superintendents | :24:39. | :24:41. | |
Association for England and Wales at an event which a number of | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
honourable and right Honourable members were present. He was giving | :24:44. | :24:49. | |
me the example of DNA where access to EU databases allowed checks to be | :24:50. | :24:54. | |
performed within 15 minutes that previously took days or weeks. He is | :24:55. | :25:01. | |
a full supporter, as are the needs of many other stuff associations in | :25:02. | :25:06. | |
the police, and senior police officers, of maintaining our current | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
relationships with the EU in terms of policing and criminal justice. My | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
honourable friend makes a very powerful point. Is he aware there is | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
some evidence in relation to SI, the Schengen information system where | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
the National crime agency said loss of access to SI as two would | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
seriously inhibit the UK ability to identify and arrest people who pose | :25:31. | :25:34. | |
a public threat and a security threat. I entirely agree with the | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
Right Honourable member and in fact I don't think there is a single | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
senior police officer or police organisation that takes a view | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
counter to the one that he has just outlined. Outside the police, apart | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
from some concerns, which I do not share, about the European arrest | :25:53. | :25:56. | |
warrant, I do not detect any desire in the public for there to be any | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
rowing back on our policing and criminal justice corporations with | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
the EU. Even in this place I don't detect any such appetite either. | :26:08. | :26:09. | |
Certainly since I've been in this place, the only pushed back, | :26:10. | :26:16. | |
particularly from these benches, has been the requirement to submit to | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
the oversight of the European Court of Justice. If that's taken out of | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
the equation, and I'll come back to it shortly, I doubt there would be a | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
voice of dissent in this place to the panoply of policing criminal | :26:29. | :26:36. | |
justice cooperation to be enjoy. Time doesn't permit me to go through | :26:37. | :26:41. | |
every one of them, I'll focus on four. Europol exists to assist law | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
enforcement agencies in member states tackling cross-border crime, | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
it focuses on gathering, organising and disseminating information rather | :26:51. | :26:53. | |
than on conducting investigations itself. The UK has 12 liaison | :26:54. | :26:57. | |
officers at Europol headquarters in the Hague and I was able to visit | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
with colleagues from the home affairs committee last year, | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
including the Right Honourable member for Leicester East. It was a | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
very impressive operation indeed. It's important to note Europol has | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
representatives from non-EU countries like Norway and the US and | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
we had a long conversation with representatives from the US who have | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
a very significant presence from the Department of Homeland Security. | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
From the conversation we had from them it wasn't immediately clear | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
they were significantly worse off from not being a member of the EU | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
but it is certainly the case they don't have the automatic right to | :27:32. | :27:38. | |
access to information on the Europol information system that members of | :27:39. | :27:44. | |
the EU have. There is a specific provision, that have access on a | :27:45. | :27:47. | |
case-by-case, supervised basis. We were also able to meet online | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
counter radicalisation officers from the European cybercrime Centre. An | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
initiative very much championed by our Prime Minister when she was Home | :27:58. | :28:01. | |
Secretary. I mentioned the Europe or information system, the central | :28:02. | :28:04. | |
database with information on suspected criminals and objects | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
associated with crime such as Europe. If your vehicle is suspected | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
of being connected with a crime in Kingston, British police officers | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
can search the EIF to find out if there is other information on the | :28:17. | :28:20. | |
vehicle or people associated with it anywhere else in the EU. In 2015, UK | :28:21. | :28:28. | |
sent and received 27,000 alerts to Europol channels. Half of which | :28:29. | :28:34. | |
related to high priority threats like child sex exploitation and | :28:35. | :28:39. | |
firearms. As crime and criminals respect state borders less and less, | :28:40. | :28:43. | |
the role of Europol in supporting cross-border cooperation will only | :28:44. | :28:50. | |
increase, and be more and more vital, it must be retained and | :28:51. | :28:55. | |
retained with British involvement. Like the EIS, it allows and | :28:56. | :29:03. | |
facilitate searches of each other's database for fingerprints, DNA | :29:04. | :29:06. | |
profiles and vehicle registration details, the UK has not implemented | :29:07. | :29:13. | |
it. I believe it will later this year. It ran a pilot of the DNA | :29:14. | :29:19. | |
profile exchange in 2015 and as already cut explain, they had from a | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
senior police officer just yesterday, it's allowed checks to be | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
performed in 15 minutes that would previously have taken hours or days. | :29:27. | :29:37. | |
As the chamber's resident expert on PRUM, does he agree with me it's | :29:38. | :29:41. | |
very important to continue to implement PRUM irrespective of our | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
decision to come out of the European Union, because it provides important | :29:46. | :29:52. | |
data sharing on DNA and fingerprints. We've made the | :29:53. | :29:58. | |
decision, we should continue with that, pending negotiations. Pending | :29:59. | :30:01. | |
negotiations we should continue down the path of integration in all these | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
policing and criminal justice measures, that we've already done | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
with respect to Europol. In a decision made and approved by this | :30:13. | :30:18. | |
house just last month. Moving onto another important measure, much like | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
the measure the Right Honourable member was just referring to, the | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
passenger name record directive, something we both saw and had | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
explained to us at Copenhagen airport. This is a common system for | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
collecting and processing data held by airlines including names, travel | :30:39. | :30:42. | |
dates, itineraries, seat numbers, baggage and means of payment. These | :30:43. | :30:45. | |
date is vitally important in tracking criminal and terrorist | :30:46. | :30:47. | |
movements to prevent and detect crime. | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
It is important to note that the EU has bilateral data-sharing | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
arrangements with the US, Australia and Canada and its negotiating | :31:00. | :31:02. | |
arrangements with the EU. There is no good reason why a non-EU country | :31:03. | :31:06. | |
cannot participate in what is clearly a system that has mutual | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
benefit. Finally, the European arrest warrant. This has had a | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
transformative effect on the police and prosecuting authorities' | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
abilities to get those who need to face justice in the UK, be that | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
prosecution or a prison sentence, back to the UK to do so. It bypasses | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
the fiendishly complicated extradition rules that apply with | :31:27. | :31:35. | |
respect to some other countries. Because countries who are members of | :31:36. | :31:37. | |
the European arrest warrant cannot refuse to extradite their own | :31:38. | :31:39. | |
citizens, and there are legally mandated time limits during which | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
extraditions have to take place. In 2015-16, 2102 individuals were | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
arrested in the UK and deported on European arrest warrant is, people | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
we plainly do not want in this country. We have been able to repay | :31:53. | :32:00. | |
trade over 2500 individuals from EU countries since we've been a member | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
-- repatriate. Including some well known terrorists, serious criminals, | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
paedophiles and there is a list of very high profile cases I don't need | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
to go into. I agree with the right Honourable Lady for West Ham, that | :32:16. | :32:21. | |
this is the most effective extradition system in the world, and | :32:22. | :32:25. | |
it would be madness to be in a situation where we have to leave it. | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
I'm very grateful, and I'm not an expert on this subject, but there is | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
concern that UK citizens could under the EA W find themselves extradited | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
to other EU countries where the just and -- justice system. To what we | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
would regard as adequate. Does he have any concerns about that? Am | :32:49. | :32:54. | |
sure we will hear his expertise in the defence field in a few moments. | :32:55. | :33:01. | |
I think the starting point of the EAW system is that anyone within the | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
system has legal system which will give a British citizen a fair | :33:05. | :33:08. | |
hearing in the same way citizens of that country would have a fair | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
hearing here. That is just starting assumption, and I think that's why | :33:13. | :33:16. | |
this House approved our membership of the European arrest warrant | :33:17. | :33:20. | |
system. I accept there are a number of people who hold the view the | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
Right Honourable member does, or at least that he refers to, and I did | :33:24. | :33:28. | |
refer to that in opening. On balance, the majority of people in | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
this House and this country think that being a member of the European | :33:32. | :33:38. | |
arrest warrant keeps us safer. Perhaps my right honourable friend | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
would like to know that that was the view of both the criminal solicitors | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
is Association who represent defendants and the criminal bar | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
Association. On balance it was an advantage, because it has judicial | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
overview, unlike the classic extradition, which is an executive | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
process. Thank you for that very helpful intervention. There are many | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
other measures that I could go through, to mention a few, but | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
European criminal records information system, the Schengen | :34:06. | :34:09. | |
information system, too. The system for providing enforcement alerts to | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
those wanted, including those wanted European arrest warrant, which | :34:15. | :34:18. | |
includes over 17 million live alerts. The European image archiving | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
system, a database of genuine and counterfeit ID documents and col | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
stumps. In all of these fields, I agree with the right honourable lady | :34:30. | :34:37. | |
that we should be aiming for full membership or the closest possible | :34:38. | :34:43. | |
approximation to full membership. So I turned to the UK's position on | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
these matters. Since the general election, the government has put us | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
in a good position to take forward policing and justice cooperation | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
with the EU. First in December 2015, we decided to opt into prom two, | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
second in December 2016, we decided to opt into new regulations | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
governing Europol, and I was pleased to sit on the European committee | :35:07. | :35:09. | |
that approved that decision unanimously. Third, yesterday the | :35:10. | :35:11. | |
Prime Minister set out how a global Britain will continue to | :35:12. | :35:27. | |
cooperate with its European partners in the fight against the common | :35:28. | :35:30. | |
threats of crime and terrorism. She made clear that she wanted our | :35:31. | :35:32. | |
future relationship with the EU to include practical arrangements on | :35:33. | :35:34. | |
matters of law enforcement and the sharing of intelligence material | :35:35. | :35:36. | |
with our EU allies. That came as no surprise, and she had personally led | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
a number of initiatives in her many years in the Home Office. It is up | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
to the European Union and to other member states whether they agree to | :35:43. | :35:46. | |
allow the UK to remain part of the policing and criminal justice at the | :35:47. | :35:48. | |
texture we are debating this afternoon. I think the case for the | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
EU and EU member states to do so is clear, and probably more clear in | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
this area of cooperation than in any other area of EU cooperation. Not | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
just because this affects the security of every citizen of every | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
EU member state, but because the UK is at the forefront of each and | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
every one of these criminal justice measures. Take Europol. The Europol | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
information system does, I understand, have 40% of its | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
contributions on to the shared intelligence system from the United | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
Kingdom. 40%, behind only one country, Germany. And the main | :36:28. | :36:34. | |
contributor contribute in a number of important areas. It will be in | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
the interest of any EU member state or the EU as a whole to shut itself | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
off from access to that vital intelligence: the pursuit of some | :36:43. | :36:49. | |
lofty principle or ideal. This is a matter of practicality. If the | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
tables were turned and an IDE country that contributed 40% of | :36:53. | :36:59. | |
intelligence to Europol, which helps British police officers fight crime | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
were to leave the EU, I would be the first to call on our government to | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
do everything possible to maintain access to that intelligence and | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
preserve our cooperation with that third country -- and another EU | :37:09. | :37:16. | |
country. It would be an act of self defeating nihilism from UK to -- for | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
the EU to shut the UK out of the measures we have been discussing | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
this afternoon. So how could we cooperate outside the EU? Plainly, | :37:26. | :37:29. | |
we could either be allowed to remain a member of these measures, which | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
would require EU legislation to be written. All we could be given | :37:34. | :37:39. | |
informal, or bespoke access, which the US already have Europol. It | :37:40. | :37:46. | |
seems to me that once any legal hurdles are overcome, the two main | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
sticking points will be money and judicial oversight. As to money, I'm | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
clear that we should pay to play. If we're going to benefit from things | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
like Europol, which has an office and staff in the Hague, we should | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
expect to pay for that, and there should be no question that we should | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
contribute. With respect to judicial oversight, I do understand that for | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
many members and honourable members, and indeed for many members of the | :38:14. | :38:20. | |
public who voted to the oversight of these ECJ is a sticking point. | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
Venice to be dealt with case-by-case looking at each of these murders to | :38:24. | :38:31. | |
the measures. -- with each of these measures. There is often an | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
international court would arbitrate in the way that we have the | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
international criminal court. I don't think we will immediately | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
become less safe because we've decided to leave the EU. These | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
measures we are discussing this afternoon are hugely beneficial to | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
law enforcement. The police and the public want us to continue with | :38:53. | :38:55. | |
them, and I'm pleased that the Prime Minister agrees. The litmus test for | :38:56. | :38:59. | |
me with this and all other EU cooperation is simple. If we were | :39:00. | :39:03. | |
not currently a member of the EU, is this something we would be looking | :39:04. | :39:07. | |
to get involved and because it benefits the British people? And | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
with all the measures we are debating today, the answer is a | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
resounding yes. Undoubtedly, there will be legal hurdles, but I hope | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
it's clear that there is willing from our side and I hope the EU will | :39:20. | :39:27. | |
respond in kind. And at the starting point for any negotiations and | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
discussions will not be whether we should do it, but how we should do | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
it. I know that members and Honourable members have come before | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
the house today demanding guarantees and more information, but I think | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
that given the consensus in this area that it falls on a running this | :39:42. | :39:45. | |
House, particularly those with expertise in legal training, to | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
contribute to the question of how we can do that so insists the | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
government in ensuring we maintain -- it assists the government. For | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
the benefit of all our constituents and citizens of Europe and Britain. | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
This is a very important debate, and as it comes the day after the Prime | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
Minister's very important speech, I want to begin briefly by reflecting | :40:12. | :40:16. | |
on what we learned yesterday about the government's objectives in the | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
forthcoming negotiations. It's now clear that ministers are going to | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
seek transitional arrangements, and parliament will have a vote at the | :40:24. | :40:25. | |
end of the process, both things which the select committee called | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
for in our report. I shall observe it was published on Saturday, the | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
Prime Minister adopted those proposals on Tuesday, | :40:35. | :40:47. | |
which three days, somewhat faster than the normal government response | :40:48. | :40:49. | |
to select committee recommendations. Having said that standard, I think | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
the members of the select committee in the chamber tonight will hope | :40:53. | :40:54. | |
that it will be continued. The most significant of the announcements was | :40:55. | :40:57. | |
that we will be out of the single market and partly out of the customs | :40:58. | :41:00. | |
union, and partly in. And in these decisions, and this is the link to | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
today's debate, lies the future of our economic success and our | :41:06. | :41:11. | |
economic security. And yet, it is an trade and our relationship with the | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
customs union that the greatest uncertainty still exists, despite | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
the Prime Minister's speech yesterday. What I say that? Because | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
the government's made it clear that one way or another, it wants to | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
secure continued tariff free and barrier free access for UK | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
businesses to European markets. It could not have been clearer. An | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
objective which incidentally the select committee and was one | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
supported by the vast majority of businesses who gave evidence to us. | :41:41. | :41:46. | |
However, there is no guarantee that this will be achieved. There is no | :41:47. | :41:50. | |
guarantee that the EU will be prepared to give us what they may | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
well regard as the best of both worlds. Free trade with Europe, the | :41:55. | :42:02. | |
right to set our own common external tariff and negotiate a new trade | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
deals. And so, I just observe that the government may be confronted | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
down the line with a rather uncomfortable choice between | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
remaining in the customs union or seeing tariffs and bureaucratic | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
obstacles rising once again between British business and their largest | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
market. Now, what would be the consequences of that? One of the | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
ways in which we could answer that question would be to seek the | :42:26. | :42:28. | |
government's workings. In his evidence to the select committee, | :42:29. | :42:34. | |
the Secretary of State said that the Department was, "In the midst of | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
carrying out 57 sets of analyses, each of which has implications for | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
individual parts of 85% of the economy". In our report, we | :42:45. | :42:47. | |
acknowledge precisely that, that the government is looking at the | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
different options for market access. We then said in our report and I | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
quote, "In the interests of transparency, these should be | :42:56. | :43:01. | |
published alongside the government's plan as long as it doesn't | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
compromise the government's negotiating hand". I would ask the | :43:05. | :43:08. | |
Minister in reply, now that we have the plan, with God the plan, it was | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
a speech yesterday, to House an assurance that these economic | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
assessments will be published so that Parliament, the select | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
committee, Parliament and the public can see for themselves the basis on | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
which the government reached its view, both about leaving the single | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
market and changing our future relationship with the customs union. | :43:29. | :43:35. | |
Now, turning to the broader issues of security and foreign policy. We | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
live in an age in which our very interdependence makes us more | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
vulnerable to crime, to terrorism, to threats to peace and security. | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
And yet, it is that very same interdependence which is the best | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
means we have two deal with those threats. During the referendum | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
campaign, I didn't come across a single person who said to me "I'm | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
voting leave because I object to the United Kingdom and its European | :44:05. | :44:07. | |
neighbours cooperating on policing or justice or security or foreign | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
policy, or the fight against terrorism". Therefore, continued | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
cooperation in all of these errors is not about trying to hold onto | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
bits of membership as we leave -- these areas. It is about ensuring we | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
continue to work together in our shared national interests at a time | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
when there is, let us face it, great instability and great uncertainty. | :44:34. | :44:38. | |
We only have to look around the world. The middle east, still | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
reeling from the Arab Spring and the consequences of people seeking more | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
security, more of a say, better government and the response of those | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
who work, or still are, in control. Respond in many cases that was very | :44:54. | :44:58. | |
violent and very brutal, think of Syria, Libya think of the flow of | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
refugees as a result, including those who have come to the shores of | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
Europe -- a response in many cases. The conflict which has dominated | :45:09. | :45:13. | |
global politics for 50 years, Israel Palestine, remains unresolved. In | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
passing, I welcome the government's support for UN Security Council | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
resolution 2234, which rightly had some strong things to say about the | :45:22. | :45:24. | |
threat from Israeli settlements to the prospects for a two state | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
solution, because we all want a safe and secure Israel living alongside a | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
Palestinian state. Given the number of countries including from Europe | :45:34. | :45:36. | |
who sent ministers to the conference in Paris last Sunday to discuss a | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
way forward, I would say I think the Foreign Secretary should been in | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
seven appearing to undermine the conference by not attending. | :45:46. | :45:51. | |
Across Europe we face an increased threat from Islamist terrorism as | :45:52. | :46:03. | |
the people of Germany and Turkey have recently experienced and the | :46:04. | :46:07. | |
families affected by the tragedy in Seuss in Tunisia whose anniversary | :46:08. | :46:15. | |
is just taking place. We know that China is seeking to establish a | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
presence on rocky outcrops in the South China Sea in response to | :46:19. | :46:29. | |
disputes. We know that Russia resurgent after seizing Crimea, | :46:30. | :46:37. | |
bombing citizens and hospitals in Aleppo and engaging in cyber | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
attacks, which is a strange way of trying to go about getting respect. | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
In the United States of America we were witness on Friday to the | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
inauguration of a new president who to say the least appears to be quite | :46:54. | :47:01. | |
sceptical about the international rules -based system. Institutions | :47:02. | :47:10. | |
that we have established, the EU, Nato, the United Nations, created | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
precisely to give the world greater security, and I have to say, Madame | :47:14. | :47:18. | |
Deputy Speaker, I was astonished to hear Angela Merkel's decision to | :47:19. | :47:23. | |
provide shelter to 1 million refugees described as, quote and | :47:24. | :47:31. | |
catastrophic mistake taking all these illegals, end of quote, by the | :47:32. | :47:38. | |
President-elect as though he was completely unaware of America, as a | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
country, being built on providing a welcome to those seeking shelter, | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
best expressed in these famous words. "Give Me your tired, your | :47:51. | :47:59. | |
poor, your huddled masses, yearning to breathe free", words forever | :48:00. | :48:06. | |
associated with the statue of liberty. I certainly don't regard | :48:07. | :48:14. | |
Nato as an institution outdated, of course there are things that can be | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
reformed, nor do Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania who seen -- C Noto as well | :48:20. | :48:31. | |
as being a member of the European Union as absolutely fundamental to | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
their future security. We are leaving the institutions of the | :48:37. | :48:39. | |
European Union, we are not leaving Europe. They are all in our shared | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
interest. That is why it is absolutely essential that we find a | :48:45. | :48:48. | |
way in the forthcoming negotiations to continue to work closely together | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
on foreign policy, security, and defence with our neighbours, | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
something which I know the government supports. There are some | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
very practical questions. We will no longer be attending the foreign | :49:03. | :49:06. | |
affairs Council. How exactly is that continued cooperation going to work? | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
Will the government press for what I have called a common policy area, a | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
new structure to bring together EU and non-EU member states to discuss | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
shared concerns about foreign policy? On policing and security | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
cover operation, we already have that special deal that allowed as to | :49:27. | :49:31. | |
opt into certain special arrangements but we do need clarity. | :49:32. | :49:37. | |
The point was made by my right honourable friend about what exactly | :49:38. | :49:40. | |
is going to happen when we leave. A point also put very forcefully by | :49:41. | :49:46. | |
the member for West Ham in her speech. The Secretary of State for | :49:47. | :49:51. | |
exiting the European Union told the house on the 10th of October that | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
one of the government's main aims during exit negotiations will be | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
quote Micro to keep our justice and security arrangements at least as | :50:01. | :50:09. | |
strong as they are". At least as strong as they are. Now, that is a | :50:10. | :50:16. | |
very specific pledge to this house. The question is, how are we going to | :50:17. | :50:22. | |
achieve this? Because replicating what we have at the moment, as we | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
have heard in this debate, represents a very significant | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
challenge. We've heard about the practical benefits of the Schengen | :50:31. | :50:37. | |
information system. Knowing who is wanted, who is a suspected foreign | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
fighter, who is missing, is really important. How will we continue to | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
receive that information after we have left? We have learned about the | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
decisions. Being able to quickly search fingerprints and DNA | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
databases is very important in combating cross-border crime. We | :51:00. | :51:03. | |
have heard about how being part of Europol gives us access to those | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
databases and expertise and there are many other examples. And the | :51:09. | :51:12. | |
challenge for the government is going to be to seek to replicate | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
those Wan Siu-hung left. We have heard about the issue of data | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
sharing. As I understand it, some of the instruments make no provision | :51:21. | :51:22. | |
currently at all for sharing information with third countries. Or | :51:23. | :51:32. | |
they expressively prohibit transfer of information to non-Schengen | :51:33. | :51:41. | |
parties. They do not allow direct access to Europol's extensive | :51:42. | :51:47. | |
information systems. As I understand it, it would be helpful if the | :51:48. | :51:53. | |
Minister could tell others what conclusions the review reached about | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
the options available to the government to secure continued | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
participation which I think every single member who has spoken in the | :52:02. | :52:06. | |
debate which is to achieve. Will he also tell us whether the | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
government's negotiation objectives specifically include retaining | :52:11. | :52:16. | |
access to this data and to this information, as part of the | :52:17. | :52:22. | |
negotiations? Can he also confirmed to what extent the UK's data | :52:23. | :52:28. | |
protection laws will need broadly to replicate EU laws if information | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
sharing is to be able to continue to the same or similar extent, once we | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
leave. A point made by the Honourable member for Edinburgh | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
South West. How, and the point was made by the former Attorney General, | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
the Right Honourable member for Beaconsfield, how will we negotiate | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
these agreements without accepting some degree of oversight from some | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
court, whether it is the European Court of Justice or some other. Can | :52:55. | :53:01. | |
he confirm that in this area, as in others, the government will seek | :53:02. | :53:04. | |
transitional arrangements to make sure there is no interruption to the | :53:05. | :53:08. | |
flow of information? Madame Deputy Speaker, the process, in conclusion, | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
on which our country is now about to embark will inevitably involve | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
uncertainty until such time as matters are resolved by agreement. | :53:21. | :53:25. | |
If the government is to honour its pledge to keep our justice and | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
security arrangements at least as strong as they are, and that is a | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
very high test, then the security and safety of our communities is one | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
area in which we simply cannot afford their to be any certainty | :53:40. | :53:48. | |
whatsoever. Or afford an outcome in which there is no deal at all. The | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
Prime Minister said yesterday that no deal is better than a bad deal. | :53:54. | :53:58. | |
In the case of security, no deal is and would be a bad deal. We simply | :53:59. | :54:03. | |
cannot afford to allow that to happen. It's a pleasure to follow on | :54:04. | :54:13. | |
from the right Honourable member for Leeds Central and I commend him for | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
his work in the early start of the report of his committee which I read | :54:18. | :54:22. | |
with interest on Saturday. It showed the committee hitting the ground | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
running and hopefully made some impact in relation to yesterday's | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
speech, as well. I must profess that I am not an expert in relation to | :54:33. | :54:39. | |
security issues. On the NHS, I'm absolutely fine but this is a big | :54:40. | :54:44. | |
issue that is of great importance to my constituency and is serving a | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
constituency like bats there have been a number of instances where | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
reports have been put out in the newspapers and caused concern for my | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
constituents. I think it's important that I do speak in this debate | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
today. I'd like to take this opportunity to focus on two | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
particular areas. Of course, there are many areas which have been | :55:07. | :55:11. | |
discussed in this debate already, whether that is Europol, CCR IAS, | :55:12. | :55:15. | |
I'm going to pick up on a couple that relate to cross-border security | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
and sharing of intelligence which have been covered by a number of | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
Honourable friends across the house so far. As my honourable friend for | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
Great Yarmouth earlier said, maintaining strong security | :55:29. | :55:32. | |
cooperation that we currently have with the European Union will feature | :55:33. | :55:37. | |
heavily in the forthcoming Brexit negotiations as outlined yesterday. | :55:38. | :55:40. | |
They should be absolutely no doubt that many of the tools and | :55:41. | :55:45. | |
institutions that currently underpin security and police cooperation are | :55:46. | :55:49. | |
absolutely vital for the continued safety of our nation, ever more | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
given the current security concerns. Yesterday, I welcomed the Prime | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
Minister's commitment in her speech to continue to cooperate with our | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
European partners in areas such as crime and terrorism. Particularly | :56:05. | :56:07. | |
when she said with the threats becoming more serious, our response | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
cannot be to cooperate with one another less but to work together | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
more. You agree that there is a large opportunity here not just to | :56:17. | :56:20. | |
look at maintaining that current cooperation but extending it as | :56:21. | :56:23. | |
well. We shouldn't give up on those opportunities that this debate gives | :56:24. | :56:35. | |
us. We will face the challenge of cross-border crime and deadly | :56:36. | :56:37. | |
terrorist threats that do not respect borders. As the Prime | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
Minister outlined yesterday, with the threats becoming more serious, | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
our response really needs to be enhanced. On the matters of law | :56:48. | :56:52. | |
enforcement and sharing intelligence materials, it has never been more | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
important, as my right honourable friend said earlier on. I want to be | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
free mention and before Honourable members turn around and say, why is | :57:03. | :57:09. | |
he mentioning the European Convention on Human Rights and the | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
protection it gives, the reason why I raise this is because of the fact | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
that I still think personally that once we are having these debates, a | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
lot of constituents out there and a lot of people in the country either | :57:21. | :57:25. | |
confused the two issues and think one is interchangeable with the | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
other or all sensitively are worried that because of the debates we are | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
having in relation to the European Court of Justice and the exit from | :57:34. | :57:36. | |
the European Union that this will at some point have some sort of impact. | :57:37. | :57:41. | |
If Madame Deputy Speaker will indulge me on this, I think leaving | :57:42. | :57:47. | |
the European Union will make it much easier to bring ourselves out of the | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
European Convention on Human Rights. While this is a topic for another | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
day, I still have no doubt that this is going to be debated for quite a | :57:56. | :57:59. | |
serious amount of time in this place and the other place as well. I'm | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
concerned that our potential withdrawal will limit the rights of | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
those in the criminal justice system. I think those rights are | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
absolutely crucial. Can the Minister assure me that the government will | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
be putting the protection of human rights at the forefront of their | :58:17. | :58:24. | |
agenda when dealing both inside and outside the European Union. There is | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
consensus among law enforcement agencies about the tools and | :58:30. | :58:31. | |
capabilities we must retain in order to keep people safe and one is the | :58:32. | :58:36. | |
European Arrest Warrant which has been debated earlier on. Members | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
will know that the EAW facilitates the exchange of individuals between | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
EU member states to face prosecution for a crime of which they are | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
accused and serve a prison sentence for a existing conviction. The UK | :58:51. | :58:57. | |
has extradited over 7000 individuals convicted of criminal offences to | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
other member states and 675 suspected, convicted or wanted | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
individuals to Britain to face justice. That is no small number. | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
Ultimately, we need to think about this number and how many different | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
individuals in society are impacted by the number over the years. It has | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
been used to get terror suspects out of the country and bring terrorists | :59:23. | :59:27. | |
back here to face justice. One main example is in 2005 when Hussain | :59:28. | :59:37. | |
Osman who try to blow up the underground on the 21st of the | :59:38. | :59:41. | |
seventh was extradited within 56 days. Before the arrest warrant | :59:42. | :59:49. | |
existed, it took ten long years to extradite another terrorist from | :59:50. | :59:54. | |
Britain to France. If we do not ensure something is going to | :59:55. | :59:57. | |
continue on, I don't want to see others harking back to take years to | :59:58. | :00:05. | |
extradite citizens. On this issue of the European Arrest Warrant, that | :00:06. | :00:12. | |
was debated extensively in previous parliaments, there are a number of | :00:13. | :00:16. | |
instances where British citizens have been subjected to failures of | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
Justice under that system. It is a point that he needs to take on | :00:21. | :00:25. | |
board. I thank my rouble member for intervening. | :00:26. | :00:34. | |
Riddles about enhancing the system we have -- it's also about. I think | :00:35. | :00:46. | |
that debate should be had. This is a prime opportunity to do so. Mr | :00:47. | :00:53. | |
Speaker, lastly, can I just turn to cross-border intelligence sharing, | :00:54. | :00:56. | |
instrumental to the safety of our nation. In particular the mechanisms | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
data gathering and analysis undertaken by Europol, the agency | :01:00. | :01:06. | |
that supports law enforcement agencies for member states by | :01:07. | :01:09. | |
providing a forum in which member states can cooperate and share | :01:10. | :01:12. | |
information. Can I should have assurance that we will continue to | :01:13. | :01:20. | |
have access to this after we leave the European Union, and I have no | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
doubt every member will be saying that over the next few hours? Does | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
he agree with me that UK intelligence agencies, including | :01:30. | :01:32. | |
individuals working in my constituency and Cheltenham don't | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
just protect British lives, they protect European lives as well. And | :01:36. | :01:40. | |
that as part of any future arrangements, we want to ensure that | :01:41. | :01:43. | |
they continue to do the vital work, both within our shores and beyond. I | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
thank him for his intervention, and he's a great champion of the | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
security services, particularly those in his constituency, and his | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
constituents that work in places like GCHQ. Not just in the European | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
Union, but also to the wider world with associate members, too. | :02:04. | :02:05. | |
Actually, this is something that has to be at the very fora of what the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
government is doing. This isn't just about British domestic interest, but | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
also international interest at the same time. I thank him for his | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
contribution. There is no doubt that the UK's participation in criminal | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
and policing capabilities have resulted in a safer United Kingdom. | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
The UK has a list taken a leading European security matters, managing | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
the relationship between the EU and the United States, taking the lead | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
in producing EU policies on counter radicalisation and the EU action | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
plan on terrorism was drafted during a UK presidency. Can I also press | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
the on the importance of this continued cooperation on after we | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
exit the European Union? I must tell right -- highlight that clarity is | :02:51. | :02:57. | |
given as much as possible on this issue. The public put security and | :02:58. | :03:04. | |
enforcement high on the agenda, so I'm pleased the government has | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
allowed this debate to take place today. We should be giving them or | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
conference at what ever the relationship that Britain has with | :03:12. | :03:14. | |
the European Union in the future maintains the highest level of | :03:15. | :03:15. | |
security. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It is great | :03:16. | :03:27. | |
pleasure to follow the honourable member. Otherwise my final | :03:28. | :03:32. | |
contribution before I leave to take up the post as director is the | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
Victoria and Albert Museum, the world's greatest museum of art and | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
performance. It has been a profound privilege to represent | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
Stoke-on-Trent in this chamber, and I'd like to put on record my thanks | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
to the Speaker, clerks, door staff, and perhaps best of all the library | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
staff, who now face a drop in demand. It seems particularly | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
perverse to leave the House now, and let me apologise to the political | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
parties and the people of Stoke-on-Trent foreign posting -- | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
for inflicting a by-election. It seems perverse to believing just | :04:10. | :04:16. | |
now, not least in terms of security, law enforcement and justice. As | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
power and sovereignty is returned to the UK Parliament, the question we | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
are debating today and you will be into the future is whether we see a | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
Britannia unchanged, forging a new era free trade, cultural exchange | :04:30. | :04:36. | |
and innovation, or whether the world today as my honourable friend | :04:37. | :04:41. | |
suggested is so interconnected in terms of economy, security and | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
political power that we have in leaving the European Union expose | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
ourselves to international headwinds that will batter rather than benefit | :04:50. | :04:54. | |
us. At this stage, we have no answer to that. The Prime Minister's speech | :04:55. | :04:58. | |
left no doubt about the strategic direction in which the government is | :04:59. | :05:02. | |
heading. Let me say that I welcome the tone of it. The need to end | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
division and heal some of the anger surrounding our decision to exit the | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
European Union is of vital task of political leadership. For the | :05:13. | :05:22. | |
saddest and most peak-time it -- most peak-time was hearing about the | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
murder of Jo Cox, my friend. It remains a devastating loss for the | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
Labour movement and humanitarian affairs. We should not forget that | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
her killing took place amid some of the ugliest and most divisive | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
rhetoric in the lead up to the referendum. And I pay tribute today | :05:42. | :05:44. | |
to the enormous dignity and resilience of her widower, Brendan | :05:45. | :05:51. | |
Cox and close family. Amidst the Brexit debate, I continue before I | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
am perhaps seduced by Crown Office, to represent a constituency that | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
voted 70-30 to leave the European Union was too weak in and week out, | :06:02. | :06:06. | |
I campaigned with colleagues to remain in the year. I remember | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
Sundays not meeting anyone who wished to stay inside the EU. But I, | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
like many members in this house -- Sundays. I accept the result. This | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
division of opinion between the official Labour Party position and | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
many of our heartland voters has served only to highlight some of the | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
deep-seated challenges which centre-left parties are facing. From | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
Greece to the Netherlands, to Sweden, to France, the combination | :06:34. | :06:37. | |
of austerity, globalisation and EU policy has hammered social | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
democratic politics. The challenge which my friend Billy leader of the | :06:41. | :06:46. | |
Labour Party faces is not unique to him -- my friend, their leader. But | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
Brexit has done is exacerbated by virgins of priorities between what | :06:52. | :07:00. | |
the Labour voters of Cambridge want, and those of Stoke-on-Trent for | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
example. Keeping a metropolitan and post-industrial coalition together | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
is no easy task. In Stoke-on-Trent, my voters wanted to leave the | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
European Union for three reasons. For sovereignty and a return of | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
national powers to this Parliament. A reaction against globalisation and | :07:17. | :07:20. | |
the political economy which they thought had shut down the mines, the | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
steel industry and eliminated 80% of jobs in the potteries. And | :07:26. | :07:30. | |
immigration. This wasn't racism. This was about the effects of | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
large-scale migration on public services and wage levels, in an | :07:35. | :07:40. | |
already low wage city. I often put the case that the EU was a double | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
walk against the records of localisation, vital for policing and | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
national security, that 50% of our pottery exports went to the EU, that | :07:49. | :07:52. | |
EU investment had assisted regeneration in North Staffordshire, | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
and that our great universities of Staffordshire and Keele both | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
benefited from EU funding. It made a difference. Now we need a Brexit | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
that delivers for Stoke-on-Trent and other communities feeling left | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
behind by globalisation and rapid socioeconomic change. The question | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
is still out there. We'll judicial immigration control be in the | :08:17. | :08:23. | |
detrimental to economic growth? Is that the site you want probably | :08:24. | :08:26. | |
poorer but more equal? Sparta, rather than Rome. I continue to have | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
great concerns about leaving the single market and its effects on | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
British business and prosperity. As we leave European Union, there is | :08:36. | :08:39. | |
also a moment for progressive reform. My right honourable friend | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
the Wolverhampton South East member has made the case Marshall plan for | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
parts of the Midlands and the to equip them for contemporary | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
challenges. I think the House can think creatively about | :08:55. | :08:56. | |
revolutionising our skills and training with a new focus on | :08:57. | :09:05. | |
vocational education, and building new internationalism. The difference | :09:06. | :09:08. | |
between a national popular politics, Post liberal vision of government | :09:09. | :09:13. | |
action and which, or a vision of Britain as a low tax, more | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
deregulated state in the Singapore Hong Kong model. It'll be | :09:19. | :09:21. | |
interesting to see how these approaches play themselves out. I | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
will watch Mr Speaker, these developments from my new post at the | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
Victoria and Albert, a museum both European in its heritage, with | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
Prince Albert instrumental in its foundation, as he felt Britain | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
needed to follow the German model in design, technology and skills, but | :09:42. | :09:44. | |
also proudly global, with a collection drawn from across the | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
Empire and the wider world. It's currently exhibition exploring the | :09:50. | :09:52. | |
life and legacy of John Lockwood Kipling, a sculptor and Potter from | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
Stoke-on-Trent who went to Bombay but missed North Staffordshire so | :09:58. | :10:02. | |
much that he named his son after a local beauty spot just north of | :10:03. | :10:08. | |
Stoke. It speaks to mix of European and empirical influences. The V | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
and other national median stands at the hub of our national creative | :10:14. | :10:17. | |
sector, and if we are concerned with security, we need to reflect on the | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
need for economic security. The UK's creative industries and are worth | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
?85 billion a year to the UK economy. The creative industries are | :10:26. | :10:29. | |
the fastest-growing sector of the UK economy, with the capacity to | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
deliver further jobs and growth and a major component in soft power. | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
Museums are sources of inspiration, innovation, creativity and synergy. | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
The UK's museums are global leaders in their fields, and great drivers | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
of British culture and identity right around the world. At the V, | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
curators and introduced the brilliance of David Bowie's designs | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
and Alexander McQueen's fashion right around the world. When it | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
comes to Brexit, the V had other museums will continue to build their | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
connections in China, India, the golf and elsewhere. But their | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
success is also a European success -- the Gulf. The story of British | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
art and design is also a story of European culture, and our place | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
within it. More than that, so many who work in our control sector are | :11:18. | :11:23. | |
EU citizens -- cultural sector. I welcome the recognition of the | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
urgent need for a reciprocal arrangement with the EU on its | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
nationals working in the UK, and those British citizens currently | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
employed in the EU. Similarly, trade negotiations with the EU will need | :11:35. | :11:37. | |
to recognise the importance of the digital sector, to the British | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
economy. I think there is a broader Brexit issue for our leading | :11:43. | :11:46. | |
cultural institutions. It seems to me that when there is this growing | :11:47. | :11:51. | |
sense of disparity between the winners and losers of globalisation, | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
museums and other cultural institutions need to help to lessen | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
the division. In an age where art, design, the humanities and culture | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
is so important for our competitiveness and quality-of-life, | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
we cannot have London detaching itself from the rest of the UK. This | :12:07. | :12:12. | |
is a chance to think more creatively about education provision, art and | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
design and a real pressure in our schools. -- under real pressure. We | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
need to build strong connections between rational and regional | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
museums -- National. In short, Brexit demand stronger connection | :12:28. | :12:30. | |
between South Kensington and Stoke-on-Trent. And I will try as | :12:31. | :12:37. | |
director to do just that. Mr Speaker, the right Honourable member | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
for Leeds Central's father famously said he was leaving Parliament to | :12:42. | :12:44. | |
spend more time on politics. I'm not quite doing that, but everything | :12:45. | :12:50. | |
that museums have a responsibility as places of learning, discourse and | :12:51. | :12:55. | |
enquiry to interrogate in a nonpartisan way, the big challenges | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
of the day. I hope to do just that, and I hope to see many of you there. | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
Finally, let me place on record my thanks to my personal style. With in | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
this palace, their work thousands of people writing, researching, probing | :13:10. | :13:15. | |
and advising. For five long years, two people have helped me and my job | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
enormously. Let me put on record my debt to the people of Stoke-on-Trent | :13:20. | :13:22. | |
for sending me here, the greatest privilege of my life. I would like | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
to thank the Chair for their indulgence in this speech this | :13:27. | :13:33. | |
afternoon. Thank you. It is an enormous pleasure for me to follow | :13:34. | :13:37. | |
the member for Stoke-on-Trent Central. He's my next door | :13:38. | :13:42. | |
neighbour, pretty well. We talk regularly. We were even on a radio | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
four programme, which he organised only a week ago on a is a bricks and | :13:48. | :13:53. | |
all the matters he referred to. I regard him not only as an honourable | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
member, but as a good friend. He referred just now to matters which | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
really were rather reminiscent to what might have been a maiden | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
speech. In a valedictory way. I think he say to him, he's performed | :14:08. | :14:13. | |
great service to this house, and to his constituents. And I just simply | :14:14. | :14:16. | |
want to put that on the record before getting into the more | :14:17. | :14:18. | |
substantial questions before us today. Of course. I thank my | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
honourable next-door neighbour. When he agreed with me that the | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
soon-to-be departed member for Stoke-on-Trent Central has been a | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
truly class act since 2010 in North Staffordshire and the potteries, not | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
least his efforts to save the Wedgwood collection for the nation. | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
And we are indebted to him for that. We've all taken an active part in | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
trying to do what we can with regard to the museum, and it is marvellous | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
not only that it should still be there, but that it is now insecure | :14:53. | :15:00. | |
hands under the aegis of what is probably already under the director | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
of the V himself. I don't know whether he's taken up his contract | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
yet, but it's getting close to it! Anyway, thank you very much for | :15:11. | :15:14. | |
everything that you've done in that context for our area and region. The | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
honourable member, the right Honourable member, did refer to the | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
question of whether or not under Brexit there would be a Britannia | :15:26. | :15:26. | |
and changed. I can assure him is this will be a | :15:27. | :15:35. | |
Britannia unchained and that is really to me the most important | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
question of all for which I have devoted the best part of 30 years of | :15:40. | :15:44. | |
my political life and I do believe very strongly that we will benefit | :15:45. | :15:48. | |
enormously from this. It's been a long journey. It's been a very | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
interesting historical journey as people will discover one day when | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
they get the full measure of what has actually taken place. I do think | :15:59. | :16:06. | |
it will benefit, not only my constituents, who represented 65% of | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
the Leave vote in our area, but also the 70% in Stoke-on-Trent central | :16:13. | :16:20. | |
itself. The other thing I would like to add is that the real question of | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
the EU, which he referred to by reference to sovereignty as being | :16:26. | :16:32. | |
one of of the main issues before his constituents, is also connected with | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
the question of trust and the issue of trust is at the heart as I said | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
yesterday after the Prime Minister's speech on a programme on Sky, is | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
really at the heart of the reason why, not only for us and it is | :16:46. | :16:48. | |
relevant to this particular debate because I am going to go on to the | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
question of security, terrorism and crime. The question of trust is at | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
the heart of the reason why, not only in this country, but across the | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
whole of the European continent, which happens to be largely speaking | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
within the European Union. This is not against Europe. This is against | :17:12. | :17:14. | |
the European Union. This is what the vote is about. This is what the | :17:15. | :17:20. | |
discontent is about. The lack of trust between the member states | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
themselves, the lack of trust between the citizens and the | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
institutions and the elites in their member states who have implemented | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
these arrangements which simply have not worked, which have generated | :17:37. | :17:42. | |
monumental degrees of unemployment, up to 60% in some countries, | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
including countries such as Greece and Spain, etc. The problems that | :17:48. | :17:56. | |
come from an overdominating Germany, which has had a detrimental effect | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
on stability in terms of the progress and evolution of the | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
European Union, which has destabilised and created the very | :18:07. | :18:12. | |
insecurity, the very stability which people wanted to deal with in the | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
aftermath of the Second World War in which my own father was killed | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
fighting in 1944 and won the Military Cross of which I am very | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
proud. I would simply say this, I voted Yes in 1975, I wanted to see a | :18:30. | :18:35. | |
situation which could work, but unfortunately the manner in which | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
this has developed has become dysfunctional. What I am so glad | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
about and in fact in the debate yesterday on the statement, the | :18:46. | :18:50. | |
discussion that took place I noticed a sense of Realism that was bearing | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
in on so many members because we have to make this work. It is not | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
anti-European to be pro-democracy and I know there are good and honest | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
Remainers who are still worried about the outcome but I say to them, | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
have confidence. Have trust. Have trust in the people as Lord | :19:16. | :19:18. | |
Churchill said in the 19th century, but this is not a 19th century | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
problem. It's a 21st century problem. It is a fact, it is not | :19:24. | :19:31. | |
just a generalisation, this is not Euroscepticism in a negative sense. | :19:32. | :19:34. | |
It's about trying to ensure that we have proper democracy and that when | :19:35. | :19:42. | |
we get on to the issue of the repeal bill that we will regain the ability | :19:43. | :19:51. | |
to achieve the reaffirmation of Westminster jurisdiction. And what | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
does that actually mean? It means that we will be implementing in this | :19:57. | :20:03. | |
chamber the decisions that are taken by the electors in general elections | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
from which those very people fought and died, which is a crucial issue | :20:09. | :20:12. | |
for the future of Europe, as well. It doesn't just apply to us, but we | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
are the first to have the opportunity to do something about it | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
because we had a referendum for which some of us fought for so long. | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
The other day in the European Parliament we were discussing | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
matters of security and terrorism and all the rest and the chairman of | :20:33. | :20:39. | |
the constitutional affairs committee of the European Parliament, with | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
whom I have fought por the best part of 20-odd years in various forums in | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
the European Union, actually accused in front of about 300 people, the | :20:52. | :20:55. | |
chairman of various parliamentary committees from all over the | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
European Union, he accused the United Kingdom of cowardice in | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
holding a referendum, to which I replied, it was an act of courage, | :21:07. | :21:12. | |
it was not an act of cowardice because we have seized the | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
opportunity in defence of the security and the necessity to have a | :21:18. | :21:22. | |
proper democratic system in the United Kingdom and we are now going | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
to be able to implement it. I want to say that with respect to this | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
business of justice and home affairs and all that goes with it, of course | :21:33. | :21:40. | |
the decisions are taken as my European scrutiny committee reported | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
back in, I think it was April or May this year, last year, before the | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
referendum itself, and we held an inquiry into the manner in which | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
decisions were taken in the Council of Ministers. Now I am prepared to | :21:53. | :21:58. | |
bet that there are people in this chamber who do not know that there | :21:59. | :22:05. | |
are virtually no votes taken in the European Council of Ministers which | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
through the European Communities Act comes straight down into this | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
chamber and we are under an obligation under this 1972 Act to | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
implement those decisions that are taken, quite often stitched up | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
behind closed doors on matters of the kind that we are now discussing, | :22:23. | :22:29. | |
which are of direct relevance to the whole question of security, | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
terrorism and crime and if they don't know that that is the way in | :22:33. | :22:35. | |
which this system actually functions, I strongly advise them, | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
either to speak to me privately and I can provide them with further | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
information, which I am not going to go into in this chamber this | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
afternoon, but which are absolutely vital to the question of democracy | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
because these decisions are not taken on the democratic basis in the | :22:52. | :22:54. | |
way in which the people have imagined. And that is a reason in | :22:55. | :23:00. | |
itself for our getting out of the European Union and I can only say I | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
was absolutely delighted by what the Prime Minister said yesterday. As I | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
said in the statement, it was principled, it was reasonable and it | :23:12. | :23:18. | |
was statesmanlike. Now, on the question specifically of justice and | :23:19. | :23:24. | |
home affairs, this, of course, was intended to be intergovernmental. | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
This was never meant to be something which was going to be governed by | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
majority voting and the rest. This was meant to be a separate pillar. | :23:33. | :23:41. | |
But if I say this to the honourable gentleman and ladies opposite, they, | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
under Tony Blair, collapsed the pillar so that it became part of the | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
treaties subject to the court of justice, as well. That was never the | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
original intention. So what we are doing in this debate is engaging in | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
some element of deja-vu but also providing ourselves with the | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
opportunity to be able to indicate the extent to which we move forward | :24:08. | :24:11. | |
after Brexit into a different environment where the decisions on | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
all these incredibly important matters are dealt with by this House | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
on the basis of votes cast by the voters of the United Kingdom and | :24:23. | :24:29. | |
nobody else. The repeal bill I drafted in May, last year, and I | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
submitted it to various people and as a result of a process which I | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
don't need to go into in detail it was accepted by the Government, in | :24:40. | :24:43. | |
principle and I have no doubt that the exact wording will be slightly | :24:44. | :24:46. | |
changed, somewhat changed, but that doesn't matter. I set out five | :24:47. | :24:50. | |
principles and I am not going to go into those now, other than to say | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
that it meant that we would withdrew from the European Union and that we | :24:56. | :24:58. | |
would transpose all the legislation that was currently within the | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
framework of the EU jurisdiction into our own Westminster | :25:04. | :25:05. | |
jurisdiction specifically and thereafter we would deal with it as | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
we go forward and we just had - the reason I apologise for not being | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
here a bit earlier, I was in for the opening debates, is because I was | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
cross-examining with my colleague, the member for Somerset and Froome | :25:23. | :25:30. | |
and others, David Lidington and we had important questions to put to | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
him and we got some very interesting answers. But this repeal bill is | :25:36. | :25:43. | |
actually going to require very, very careful attention and we are going | :25:44. | :25:49. | |
to be able as a result of that to re-introduce into this House a | :25:50. | :25:51. | |
proper democratic system. There will be things we will accept as a matter | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
of policy and we heard some of those yesterday in what the Prime Minister | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
said in her brilliant speech. The fact is that we have got to absorb | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
some of the issues but what we can not do is to absorb the court of | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
justice and this particular subject matter and this particular debate | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
raises the Court of Justice probably as much as any other subject matter | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
within the framework of the European Union as a whole. | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
Now the Prime Minister's speech yesterday made clear that the UK | :26:29. | :26:34. | |
will continue to co-operate with its European partners in important areas | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
such as crime and terrorism once we leave the EU. Faced with common | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
security threats she indicated, and I quote, our response cannot be to | :26:44. | :26:49. | |
co-operate with one another less, but to work together more. Subject, | :26:50. | :26:53. | |
of course, to the question of the Court of Justice. And to ensure that | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
the UK's future relationship with the EU includes, and I quote, | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
practical arrangements on matters of law enforcement and the sharing of | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
intelligence material with our EU allies. She went on to make clear | :27:08. | :27:12. | |
that the Government, and I quote again, will take back control of our | :27:13. | :27:18. | |
laws and bring an end to the jurisdiction of the European Court | :27:19. | :27:22. | |
of justice. As chairman of the European scrutiny committee, I and | :27:23. | :27:28. | |
my colleagues such as the member for Somerset and Froome, from which my | :27:29. | :27:31. | |
wife comes, I should have remembered that, I continue to see a raft of EU | :27:32. | :27:37. | |
initiatives in this sensitive area of law enforcement and security | :27:38. | :27:40. | |
co-operation. The Government tells us that while the UK remains a | :27:41. | :27:46. | |
member of the EU, all rights and obligations of EU membership remain | :27:47. | :27:51. | |
in force and tla is true and the Government will and I quote, | :27:52. | :27:55. | |
continue to negotiate, implement and apply EU legislation. Although I do | :27:56. | :28:07. | |
say quite explicitly and I put this to Mr Lidington this afternoon as | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
the leader of the House, that it is absolutely essential that in the | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
period of time while we are engaged in these negotiations that we have | :28:20. | :28:36. | |
proper explaintory memoranda. We have to - where there is in a | :28:37. | :28:44. | |
position to vote against them to do so, and where there is a question of | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
qualifying majority vote, we require a vote and not this stitching-up | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
behind closed doors and at the same time we give reasons as my committee | :28:56. | :29:00. | |
recommended to increase the transparency and accountability | :29:01. | :29:05. | |
because some of these matters are so important to the skrurt and to the | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
question of terrorism and all that goes with it that we really, if we | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
don't believe that what they're proposing is in our national | :29:17. | :29:19. | |
interest we must take a stand and the Government, in my opinion, has | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
an absolute requirement to make sure that is there on the face of the | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
record so that if we don't like something that is being proposed, | :29:29. | :29:31. | |
although the generalisation which is that we want to try to achieve a | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
degree of co-operation is important, that we do not allow things to go | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
through by consensus in unsmoked filled rooms which are not in the | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
UK's interest and which we would never contemplate accepting in a | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
post-Brexit situation and if we had our wits about us would never have | :29:53. | :29:56. | |
accepted in the first place. So, there is that issue to be | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
considered which is a matter of European scrutiny process and my | :30:02. | :30:04. | |
committee is looking into that very closely. | :30:05. | :30:13. | |
The further point is that as the House will recall the previous | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
coalition Government decided that it would be in the UK's national | :30:18. | :30:22. | |
interest to rejoin 35 EU police and criminal justice measures which were | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
adopted before the Lisbon Treaty took effect and was subject to the | :30:28. | :30:34. | |
UK's 2014 block opt-out decision. These includure poll, euro justice, | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
the European arrest warrant, joint investigation teams and important | :30:40. | :30:45. | |
data-sharing instruments, notably the Sche in, gen information system, | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
the European criminal records information system and the so-called | :30:50. | :30:53. | |
Swedish initiative which provides a simplified mechanism for the | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
exchange of law enforcement information and intelligence. | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
The Prime Minister, then Home Secretary has rejoined the measures | :31:05. | :31:13. | |
which provided the exchanging of DNA profiles, fingerprinting and vehicle | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
registration data. United Kingdom also participates in the European | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
investigation order which will take effect in May this year and many | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
other criminal justice measures. I have to say, with regards to what is | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
going on in relation to the current new EU justice and home affairs | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
proposals, there appears to be inadequate recognition in the | :31:36. | :31:45. | |
context in which the UK will continue to negotiate, implement and | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
imply the legislation has changed profoundly because of Brexit. To | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
quote the Prime Minister, the UK is leaving the European Union but the | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
Government cannot continue with business as usual and I have to say | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
that I do trust that said Tim Barrow will carry on as the new UK | :32:04. | :32:10. | |
representative in a way that be entirely consistent with what is | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
required in relation to this business to which I have already | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
referred. We cannot continue with business as usual in the handling of | :32:21. | :32:25. | |
sensitive EU Justice and home affairs proposals with the European | :32:26. | :32:32. | |
Parliament. Given that the UK is under no obligation to participate | :32:33. | :32:37. | |
in most new EU Justice and home proposals, the Government must | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
explain in each case and put to The Record how a decision to opt in | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
would be in the national interest and would be considered with taking | :32:46. | :32:51. | |
back our laws. Control of our laws as the Prime Minister said an ending | :32:52. | :32:56. | |
the jurisdiction of the European Court. Since last June and the | :32:57. | :32:59. | |
referendum, the European scrutiny committee has pressed the Government | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
to clarify how these measures will be affected by the UK's decision to | :33:04. | :33:16. | |
leave. Under the repeal they will otherwise have to have significant | :33:17. | :33:18. | |
adjustments as to how that is handled. What sort of relationship | :33:19. | :33:22. | |
does the Government intend to establish with the Euro poll or | :33:23. | :33:27. | |
Eurojust. Will it seek an agreement to enable the UK to apply a new | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
arrangement regarding the European arrest warrant. We can't have it | :33:34. | :33:37. | |
both ways, you can't be out of the jurisdiction of the EU court and | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
have the laws interpreted by the judges in Luxembourg, it won't | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
happen, it can't happen so that has to be taken on board. What | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
assessments as the Government made on the operational value on the E U | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
data-sharing? Would access to these instruments require the UK to apply | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
with data protection laws in practice, even if it is no longer | :34:04. | :34:10. | |
under a legal obligation to do so. Answers to these questions are | :34:11. | :34:12. | |
fundamental because otherwise we would not be able to implement the | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
commitment to take back control of our laws and bring an end to the | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
jurisdiction of the European Court of Justice. As I said in an | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
intervention at an earlier debates, what we have to take into account is | :34:29. | :34:34. | |
this, this business of justice home affairs, terrorism, security and all | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
of the problems which have accumulated in this 21st-century are | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
not exclusive to the European Union, they apply across the whole world. | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
The fact that the European Union exists and that it has developed a | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
body of law and this framework of law doesn't give it any absolute | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
value, the questionnaires we have been legislating in this house and | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
its predecessors for the best part of 400 years. We don't need to be | :35:07. | :35:11. | |
told how to do this, yes we want to cooperate with other countries but | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
for heaven sake, let us take on board the fact that are able to work | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
out what is in interest of our citizens in accordance with what | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
they say in general elections. We will have our own immigration bill | :35:27. | :35:28. | |
and it'll do what the British people want because they will have voted | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
for it and not simply have it imposed upon us by these deals done | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
behind closed doors. We are talking about very important matters and I | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
would simply say as a result of the decision that has been taken by the | :35:47. | :35:49. | |
British people and I pay tribute to them, I don't pay tribute to the | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
campaigns, I thought the project fear campaign was a disgrace and I | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
said so in this house when it was going on, and I don't think there | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
was any treaty change, I challenge the Prime Minister and put the | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
matter to the speaker as well and that was around the middle of June | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
and the Prime Minister was gone by the time the tee end of that month. | :36:13. | :36:23. | |
We didn't cover ourselves with glory on either side of the campaign and | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
there are things I regret so I did my own campaign in my own area and | :36:27. | :36:37. | |
I'm glad to say in our area we notched up anything between 65-72% | :36:38. | :36:43. | |
to leave and he was quite right, it was about sovereignty and the very | :36:44. | :36:47. | |
matters I'm talking about here. It was about whether we could run our | :36:48. | :36:52. | |
own country through our representation in this house. It | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
really is as fundamental as that. Everything else pales into | :36:57. | :36:59. | |
insignificance compared to democracy if it is properly conducted and is | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
absolutely for sure that the current European Union is undemocratic and | :37:04. | :37:10. | |
it is good that we are getting out. One that I want to finish on is this | :37:11. | :37:20. | |
that with respect to today'sbusiness, our committee have | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
released a press release on another matter, it is about whether UK | :37:25. | :37:29. | |
nationals will need authorisation to travel to the Schengen area post | :37:30. | :37:37. | |
Brexit. The fact is, the United Kingdom is not entitled to | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
participate, but the Government will have to monitor negotiations | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
closely. My committee is asking the following, what are main differences | :37:48. | :37:55. | |
the modern proposed on a full Schengen Visa regime, what access | :37:56. | :38:03. | |
the Government is seeking for UK nationals post Brexit and if the | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
Government intends to press for an exemption for the new travel | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
authorisation for UK nationals post Brexit or to seek instead to | :38:12. | :38:17. | |
minimise that cost and complexity of the application process and if the | :38:18. | :38:20. | |
Government is unable to secure an exemption, whether it would wish to | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
introduce a reciprocal travel authorisation system for EU | :38:24. | :38:27. | |
nationals travelling to the United Kingdom after Brexit. All of these | :38:28. | :38:32. | |
matters are in a press release which is being presented to the media this | :38:33. | :38:37. | |
afternoon. I sincerely trust that they will give it the kind of | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
attention it deserves. I conclude simply by saying I think this is a | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
vitally important debate, it is the best example of an area which | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
impinges directly on citizens. Elsewhere in the European Union, | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
there is massive resistance building up to EU proposals by the citizens, | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
we have had our votes, we had our referendum, the people decided that | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
we would get out, that is what we were doing, let's implement it and | :39:08. | :39:14. | |
get on with it. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Before I start | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
speaking, I would like to place my personal tribute to my honourable | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
friend from stroke to the Stoke-on-Trent. I would also like to | :39:22. | :39:32. | |
say thank you because he wrote me a very long handwritten letter after | :39:33. | :39:37. | |
my maiden speech which was much appreciated. I am in danger of | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
breaking the rule set I will get onto the debate at hand and speak | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
about the issues. The problem of being so low on the pecking order is | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
that everything has been said and articulated very well by others | :39:52. | :39:57. | |
before May I thought I would speak about the worries my constituents | :39:58. | :40:06. | |
have. 75% voted to remain and in a surge voted on continuing security | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
incorporation with their European partners and many other actors which | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
had been raised in this debate. There is a... London residents are | :40:18. | :40:28. | |
obviously not alone in their experience of the devastation | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
inflicted by terrorism but they're particularly clear minded about the | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
value of EU wide security arrangements in bringing people to | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
justice and the honourable Member for Bath already referenced a time | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
when the European arrest warrant played a crucial role in allowing | :40:46. | :40:50. | |
police to do their jobs, help keep London are safe and bring offenders | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
to justice. He famously cited the example in 2005 when the failed | :40:55. | :41:03. | |
bomber Hussain Osman was brought to justice within just a few weeks | :41:04. | :41:09. | |
because of the fact that he had access to the European arrest | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
warrant. Other agencies and conventions such as Euro poll which | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
has been mentioned several times and the European criminal records | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
information system help combat crime across borders through international | :41:22. | :41:28. | |
cooperation and sharing forensics data. For a global city like London | :41:29. | :41:33. | |
where my constituency is based, abandoning European security could | :41:34. | :41:40. | |
compromise our effectiveness in confronting a number of issues | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
beyond terrorism including human trafficking, intellectual property | :41:46. | :41:48. | |
crime, money-laundering and organised crime groups. I believe my | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
friend the Mayor of London was right to demand that London has a seat | :41:55. | :41:59. | |
around the table along the devolved nations in ensuring continental | :42:00. | :42:05. | |
security is kept intact. It was extremely disappointing to see no | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
direct reference to London's additional law enforcement needs in | :42:11. | :42:12. | |
the Prime Minister 's statement yesterday. The Government 's | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
decision in December to opt into new Euro poll regulations was a welcome | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
one and in principle would appear to back up the Prime Minister's word on | :42:24. | :42:28. | |
maintaining a continental approach when gathering criminal intelligence | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
and producing threat assessments. Londoners will want to know not just | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
in my constituency but everywhere whether these regulations we have | :42:38. | :42:41. | |
adopted will at last the EU negotiations and whether the | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
Government will develop alternative framework corporations on security | :42:48. | :42:52. | |
matters and on the outlined matters. Only when we have such answers for | :42:53. | :42:57. | |
my constituents be reassured that their security needs and those of | :42:58. | :43:01. | |
fellow Londoners are being considered with the utmost care by | :43:02. | :43:08. | |
this government. Beyond information sharing with a European partners, it | :43:09. | :43:11. | |
is clear that Brexit will pose financial challenges to the economy. | :43:12. | :43:18. | |
One area that we will be scrutinising is of course the money | :43:19. | :43:23. | |
spent on policing and the current spend in arranging any post Brexit | :43:24. | :43:28. | |
settlements, the Home Office must fully recognise London's position as | :43:29. | :43:36. | |
a major global capital. It is a city which incurs extra security cost in | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
trying to keep the large population safe when major policing events take | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
place and protecting our famous landmarks such as the parliament we | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
sat in today. At present this extra needs cost, ?300 million a year, | :43:49. | :43:56. | |
London only receives funding for barely half of this amount. When | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
addressing our post Brexit security and law enforcement needs, making | :44:03. | :44:05. | |
sure the capital has the money to protect itself will be the utmost | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
importance and we would like answers from the ministers on this. There | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
are a few other questions I would like the Minister to answer. Will he | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
ensure the Home Office will give the full amount in knees through the | :44:19. | :44:24. | |
international capitals city 's grant. There is currently over ?100 | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
million shortfall and threatens the police ability to protect Londoners. | :44:30. | :44:38. | |
Will the Minister make it clear what future is ahead with Europe. This | :44:39. | :44:44. | |
future is vital to access criminal records, yet we know the deputy | :44:45. | :44:47. | |
chairman of the EU has made it clear to Denmark that they should not be | :44:48. | :44:54. | |
under any illusions to create a parallel membership. Finally, the | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
question asked over and over again, what is our future relationship with | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
the European arrest warrant. The DPP was clear in November that up to 150 | :45:06. | :45:12. | |
essential additions would not have been possible without the system and | :45:13. | :45:16. | |
our relationship with it and the former director-general of MI6 | :45:17. | :45:21. | |
warned that losing abilities such as this would make the UK less safe. I | :45:22. | :45:28. | |
hope that the Minister will make clear in his closing statement how | :45:29. | :45:31. | |
we can continue to protect our citizens and to protect London. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
I urge him to address these practical security questions which | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
would even earn some goodwill from those who will be sat on the other | :45:43. | :45:48. | |
side of the negotiating table today. The number one priority of any | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
Government which I am sure the Minister will recognise is to ensure | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
the security of its civilians and for me at the moment it's not | :45:56. | :46:00. | |
entirely clear how the Government intends to do this. Thank you. In | :46:01. | :46:10. | |
the aftermath of the September 11th attacks, I think there was a | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
recognition that something had to be done to speed up extradition | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
processes and reduce the amount of bureaucracy involved. That in | :46:19. | :46:21. | |
addition to the fact that some career criminals seemed to be using | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
places like Spain, the so-called Costa Del Crime as a permanent home, | :46:28. | :46:30. | |
meant that I was happy to give the Government at the time the benefit | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
of the doubt and have always supported the principle of a | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
European arrest warrant and we have heard many important speeches in | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
support of it today. I don't really disgree with the principle of what | :46:42. | :46:44. | |
is being said. But it cannot be denied that there have been cases | :46:45. | :46:51. | |
that have given rise to concern, because the European extradition | :46:52. | :46:54. | |
warrant makes an assumption that standards of justice are the same in | :46:55. | :47:00. | |
all EU countries, that standards within prisons are the same and that | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
bail conditions are going to be the same as well. In short, that human | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
rights are respected in exactly the same way across the European Union. | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
My honourable friend, who is the member - the chairman of the Justice | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
Committee and the member for Bromley and Chislehurst actually said that | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
he had no doubt at all that standards of justice in Germany and | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
France were exactly the same as they are in the UK and I don't really | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
have any doubt about that either. But I do have concerns about the | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
standards of justice overall that take place in other parts of the | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
European Union. Some of the cases I think have been briefly mentioned. | :47:42. | :47:45. | |
One case where someone spent almost a year in praise having been denied | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
bail because he was not a Greek resident, in other words, he was | :47:50. | :47:52. | |
extradited because he was a European but unable to get bail because he | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
wasn't actually Greek. He served time in some pretty awful places. | :47:57. | :48:01. | |
Now, both the member for Bromley and Chislehurst and myself are members | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
of the Council of Europe and I don't know what visits he has made but I | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
have certainly seen a Greek detention centre and having served | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
as a special constable I would say that the conditions were illegal | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
under any European rules and regulations and we were shown a room | :48:18. | :48:19. | |
probably not much bigger than half the size or a quarter of the size of | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
this chamber which contained around 30-40 people who were being held in | :48:25. | :48:33. | |
those conditions for up to a year for various immigration infractions | :48:34. | :48:36. | |
and as far as I can understand it were given little time out of those | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
conditions. It would have been unacceptable to hold anyone in | :48:41. | :48:44. | |
conditions like that for 48 hours in a UK police station and it comes to | :48:45. | :48:49. | |
something when people are begging to be sent to a Greek prison because | :48:50. | :48:56. | |
conditions there are so bad. Another case someone tried within 48 hours | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
of being arrested. He hadn't been involved. He was released but then | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
subsequently there was a demand for him to return to Portugal to serve a | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
two-year sentence. He wasn't given access to the sort of facilities | :49:10. | :49:13. | |
which we take for granted, for example, translation facilities | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
which are very important. There have been other cases. One which I saw on | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
the Fair Trials International website. I hadn't been aware of | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
before, but apparently he was convicted of murder in his absence, | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
despite the fact that at the time the murder took place he was working | :49:29. | :49:31. | |
or studying in the United Kingdom and on the day that it happened | :49:32. | :49:34. | |
there were numerous witnesses to say that he was in the United Kingdom | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
and nowhere near the country where this murder was supposed to have | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
taken place. Yet, he went through years of hell because of the strong | :49:42. | :49:44. | |
possibility that he would have actually been extradited to Italy to | :49:45. | :49:50. | |
serve I think a 19-year sentence. At least in these instances one | :49:51. | :49:53. | |
could say that the motivation behind them was to reduce crime and to deal | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
with straightforward criminality. Even if we might think that the | :49:59. | :50:01. | |
standards being applied here were simply not good enough. But there | :50:02. | :50:04. | |
are other cases now beginning to emerge which have an even more | :50:05. | :50:10. | |
worrying motivation. I want to pay particular attention to what the | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
Romanian Government are doing at the moment. They have indicated they may | :50:14. | :50:22. | |
serve an arrest warrant against an award-winning Sky jornlist and his | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
team, I believe Stuart Ramsey, who put together a documentary about | :50:28. | :50:30. | |
gun-running in Romania and the Government didn't like it. I don't | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
know whether the claims made were accurate, I have no reason to doubt | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
them. If governments don't like journalists stories about them they | :50:41. | :50:42. | |
have the right to rebut those stories. It is simply unacceptable | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
for governments to start issuing arrest and judicial proceedings | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
against journalists who have upset them T would never ever be | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
acceptable in this country. There is another case going on at the moment | :50:55. | :50:59. | |
which I find particularly worrying and that's the extradition warrant | :51:00. | :51:06. | |
being served against another, also by the Romanian Government. His | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
father runs a newspaper in Romania which has been highly critical of | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
the Romanian Government. The Romanian Government, the Prime | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
Minister at the time actually said that he was corrupt, had him | :51:18. | :51:20. | |
arrested. He was found guilty within a short space of time. There were | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
all sorts of reasons why one might question the court case but it's not | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
for me to do so here. The point is that when his son, who is a UK | :51:28. | :51:34. | |
resident and an aspiring playwrite, filed charges against the Romanian | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
Government, his son was served with a European arrest warrant and was | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
arrested on the streets of London on his way to speak to the front line | :51:43. | :51:47. | |
club about the importance of journalistic freedoms. There was an | :51:48. | :51:52. | |
attempt to kidnap his wife by masked men as well, which still hasn't been | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
properly dealt with and nobody has been found. These are very, very | :51:56. | :51:59. | |
worrying cases because it gives rise to the kerb concern that rather than | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
-- rise to the concern that rather than having people arrested to | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
resolve criminality, some governments, it looked on the basis | :52:08. | :52:10. | |
of those two cases, the Romanian Government is one that worries me, | :52:11. | :52:14. | |
seem to be using the arrest warrant to send out a message that anyone | :52:15. | :52:18. | |
who questions them or tries to hold them to account will face the risk | :52:19. | :52:21. | |
of being taken off the streets of the country in which they are | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
resident, arrested and sent back to Romania for trial. Of course I give | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
way. Another problem which the scrutiny committee has looked at in | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
the past and we had the Fair Trials Abroad team in to give us evidence, | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
and that is that some of the judges of course are politically appointed. | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
Well, I think my honourable friend makes a very important point. I just | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
really want to say that I have listened with great interest to what | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
has been said. I was a supporter of Brexit but that in no way mean that | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
is I am opposing the European arrest warrant or the principle behind it | :52:58. | :53:01. | |
because of that. Of course I give way. I thank my honourable friend | :53:02. | :53:06. | |
for giving way. Does he agree with me that actually the European arrest | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
warrant has benefitted some of our constituents. Four days before | :53:12. | :53:14. | |
Christmas a father in my constituency was reunited with his | :53:15. | :53:20. | |
son that had been abducted and taken to Poland and he was recovered on | :53:21. | :53:24. | |
the issuing of the European arrest warrant. Absolutely. I don't deny | :53:25. | :53:31. | |
for one minute it's led to some very important results for us where we | :53:32. | :53:35. | |
have had terrorists and other serious criminals either extradited | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
out of the UK or extradited back to the United Kingdom. I don't doubt | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
this for one moment. As the honourable lady knows I served as a | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
special constable for eight or nine years, there is no question I will | :53:49. | :53:51. | |
always support any Government in wanting to bring about stricter | :53:52. | :53:55. | |
measures against criminality. But the issue here is this, that there | :53:56. | :53:59. | |
is a price to be paid and we pay it in the human rights of citizens in | :54:00. | :54:03. | |
our own country, if we are prepared to allow countries which apply a | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
lower standard of justice or a lower standard of fairness within courts | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
or a lower standard of access to bail, if we are prepared to allow | :54:12. | :54:17. | |
those countries to extradite our citizens or residents of this | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
country in order to keep the bureaucracy running smoothly, then | :54:22. | :54:23. | |
everyone who is living in this country is paying a price in terms | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
of their human rights in order to reduce bureaucracy and improve an | :54:31. | :54:33. | |
extradition procedure and we need to think carefully about that price. | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
Brexit does offer us an opportunity here. I have no problem with the | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
countries the honourable gentleman from Bromley mentioned with Germany | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
or France or many of the other European countries, but if it | :54:45. | :54:47. | |
becomes the case that some countries are not giving people bail, holding | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
them in pretrial detention for an unacceptable length of time or using | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
the European arrest warrant as a means to silence criticism of them | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
through the press, then it's absolutely right that we use Brexit | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
as an opportunity to renegotiate the whole system to work with countries | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
that apply our systems of justice but to say with the utmost respect | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
we are unwilling to sacrifice the human rights of some people in order | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
to maintain membership of the European arrest warrant and I hope | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
the Minister will meet me to discuss this case on a subsequent occasion. | :55:23. | :55:33. | |
It's a pleasure to follow the honourable member, even if I don't | :55:34. | :55:35. | |
always agree on everything he has to say. Can I extend my best wishes to | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
the member for Stoke-on-Trent as he starts a new chapter in his career, | :55:40. | :55:45. | |
as well. I am pleased to take part in this important debate where there | :55:46. | :55:51. | |
is probably an unusually wide degree of consensus, participation in EU | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
schemes does bring value and Government should be doing it can to | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
keep the UK as closely involved as possible and certainly on these | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
benches, if Brexit is to happen we believe it is utterly essential that | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
we do everything open to us to preserve our involvement to the | :56:06. | :56:10. | |
maximum degree achievable in these negotiations. Success in that | :56:11. | :56:18. | |
ambition cannot be taken for granted. As the Minister said it is | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
in the interests of the other EU member states to see the UK involved | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
and yes it is undoubtedly true that the UK contribution to these | :56:27. | :56:30. | |
institutions is very much valued and is very significant. Indeed it is no | :56:31. | :56:34. | |
doubt a matter of huge regret that a member state has been hugely | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
influential in shaping initiatives such as the European arrest | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
warrants, has now ongoing participation in these schemes at | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
risk. However, nobody should be complacent that securing meaningful | :56:49. | :56:51. | |
ongoing participation will be straightforward. All evidence shows | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
there are significant political and legal hurdles to overcome, a point | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
that was well made by the Shadow Minister in her opening remarks. The | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
justice and home affairs issues are areas of shared competence and so | :57:05. | :57:07. | |
agreements on participation, it may well need approval from both EU | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
institutions and individual member states and in some of these states | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
that will involve either parliamentary ratification or even | :57:16. | :57:19. | |
referenda, if necessary. All that will be made more complex still if | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
the Government is going to go about setting out clear red lines which | :57:24. | :57:26. | |
make those hurdles even more difficult to overcome. That would | :57:27. | :57:30. | |
include the Prime Minister's obsession with escaping any aspect | :57:31. | :57:33. | |
of the jurisdiction of the Court of Justice and that was a point that | :57:34. | :57:37. | |
the honourable member was right to raise at the start of this debate. | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
So let me turn first of all to just a couple of the schemes and | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
institutions that I believe it is vital we seek to preserve a refor | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
the UK in. The European arrest warrant as others have said has seen | :57:50. | :57:53. | |
a step change in how quickly suspects and criminals can be | :57:54. | :57:56. | |
repatriated to face justice and I won't go through the benefits | :57:57. | :58:00. | |
highlighted so far. Last May the then Home Secretary told the home | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
affairs committee that if we are not in the European Union we would | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
almost certainly not have access to the European arrest warrant. And on | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
the basis of evidence submitted to the home affairs Select Committee so | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
far, that seems almost certainly to be correct, creating one of the | :58:14. | :58:16. | |
biggest headaches for a Government. She also noted the length of time it | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
had taken for Norway and Iceland to negotiate access to something not | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
even as comprehensive as a European arrest warrant system. 16 years on | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
from the start of negotiations and eventual agreement is not yet even | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
in force. As the then Home Secretary also noted, such deals often contain | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
massive loop-holes that the arrest warrant does not, for example, some | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
states will simply not extradite their own nationals and will insist | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
on any trial taking place in their courts. So, the question for the | :58:46. | :58:48. | |
Government, does the Government accept that it is not going to be to | :58:49. | :58:52. | |
be to negotiate a single deal for one procedure with the European | :58:53. | :58:54. | |
Union as a whole or is it still going to make that attempt? Or is it | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
resigned to negotiating 27 different agreements as Lord Carlile, the | :59:00. | :59:04. | |
former independent reviewer of trim legislation suggested is required. ? | :59:05. | :59:08. | |
In the likely event work on either of those options can't be completed | :59:09. | :59:12. | |
within two years will it be seeking some transitional arrangement | :59:13. | :59:14. | |
because otherwise as I understand it I think the chair of the justice | :59:15. | :59:20. | |
Select Committee will be - we will be reverting back to the Council of | :59:21. | :59:32. | |
Europe convention. What planning on this will of interest to police | :59:33. | :59:34. | |
officers everywhere, what planning will be done so that law enforcement | :59:35. | :59:41. | |
can cope with a more expensive and complicated procedure? Euro poll, | :59:42. | :59:45. | |
which the home affairs Select Committee visited last year, and we | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
are all impressed by the work undertaken there and the leadership | :59:50. | :59:52. | |
of Rob Wayne write and we already heard about some of the benefits | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
that institution brings. On that visit as one of my legs colleagues | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
highlighted we noted the presence of US liaison officers and 14 third | :00:02. | :00:05. | |
countries have negotiated operational partnerships with euro | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
poll. Although some such arrangement could probably be agreed within two | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
years that stat subs not as good as what the UK enjoys now as a full | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
member. Before the referendum MrBrain white warned the UK would | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
become a second tier member of our club if it left the EU and like | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
Iceland and Norway would be denied direct access to euro poll data. Of | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
course we no longer have direct influence on the overall direction | :00:29. | :00:32. | |
of that agency which has proved so beneficial in recent years. These | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
are not trivial matters, that could mean a request for information on | :00:37. | :00:40. | |
missing or wanted persons taking days rather than hours which could | :00:41. | :00:41. | |
be crucial for the people involved. That is why David garment has called | :00:42. | :00:51. | |
for more than operational partnership enjoyed by other states. | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
They could be problems with our relationship with Europe whole and | :00:57. | :01:00. | |
in particular the all-important access to data if the Government | :01:01. | :01:02. | |
moves away from data protection standards. We had already the EEE US | :01:03. | :01:13. | |
safe harbour agreement has been struck down, one now under the | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
Europe whole directive will need to seek agreement from the European | :01:21. | :01:25. | |
directive which in the past has turned down finances for similar | :01:26. | :01:33. | |
reasons. Whilst it is good that there is not going to be a | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
settlement for operational partnership and be a bespoke | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
agreement, we need more detail on what will be envisaged or the | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
Government undertake that data protection standards will not | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
jeopardise our our relationship and what if that involves some sort of | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
influence of the European court of justice. On the European sorry on | :01:52. | :02:01. | |
the showing in information system, UK enjoys partial access but the | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
evidence so far has been that system has been a game changer for police, | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
it facilitates real-time alerts for the police National computer linked | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
into the system. Access from non-EU countries is limited, countries such | :02:17. | :02:21. | |
as Australia must ask institutions like Europol, Norway and Iceland to | :02:22. | :02:27. | |
have to make payments without seeing any policy development and they must | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
implement the European Court of Justice decisions or face losing | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
that access. On these benches would have no hesitation saying those | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
commitments are worth it if we secure similar access but the | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
question is, does the Government believe they are acceptable as well | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
or does the Prime Minister's obsession with the European Court of | :02:49. | :02:55. | |
Justice take precedence. On similar issues, financial contributions and | :02:56. | :02:59. | |
jurisdiction have secured Iceland and Norway access but according to | :03:00. | :03:03. | |
David Armond, the Interpol agreements which we would have tuque | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
fall back on would be a time-consuming bureaucratic | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
arrangement. We could go through the police College, the European network | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
of information Security agency, passenger names records and each | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
similar area where the efforts in securing membership must be very | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
close is free to nice. I welcome the commitment to work with devolved | :03:28. | :03:36. | |
criminal justice organisations, sadly the governments will not be at | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
the table in these negotiations occur. In conclusion, if anything | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
illustrates the idea that the European Union and power states, it | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
is surely in the field of policing and security because if we fight | :03:50. | :03:52. | |
organised crime in our own then we are not so much taking back control | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
but we risk time one arm behind our backs. We all benefit from a more -- | :03:58. | :04:12. | |
operating. I hope the Government can assure is today the priorities are | :04:13. | :04:25. | |
in that order. Following on from my colleague, I note there is a degree | :04:26. | :04:35. | |
of consensus, in the vote on the summer on the opposite benches, | :04:36. | :04:41. | |
nonetheless I would say that we have found a certain solace of .11 in the | :04:42. | :04:48. | |
plan to commit to fight crime and terrorism and inherently these are | :04:49. | :04:51. | |
just words at the moment and the Government now must demonstrate with | :04:52. | :04:58. | |
actions have the evident need for international corporation will be | :04:59. | :05:01. | |
realised. I would like to have my voice mentioned by many people | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
better qualified than myself to detail those aspects of cooperation. | :05:06. | :05:19. | |
We certainly have a fair amount of work on our hands to the | :05:20. | :05:22. | |
coordinating and working in Concord and all of those things. I would | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
like to raise a few issues regarding Wales and the western seaboard. As | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
we know the Common travel area allows Ireland and UK citizens the | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
ability to travel without passports and we welcome the announcement that | :05:39. | :05:42. | |
this will remain but I would like to explain from the point of view of | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
Wales and the security of Wales, this warrants consideration. Key | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
Welsh ports such as Holyhead, Fishguard deal with thousands of | :05:52. | :05:54. | |
passengers and huge amounts of freight coming in from Ireland each | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
and every day. Haven is a major port from fuel arriving by sea, Holyhead | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
is second only to Dover in terms of passenger numbers with 1.9 million | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
passengers in 2015. I wonder under present circumstances if the | :06:12. | :06:14. | |
security status of Holyhead as a ports might be revisited. The Police | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
Commissioner has warned where the border to become more tangible that | :06:23. | :06:28. | |
there would likely be a rise of an criminality in Holyhead and even the | :06:29. | :06:35. | |
possibility of terrorist violence focusing on the manifestations of | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
the border, this of course must be avoided at all costs. I would like | :06:40. | :06:46. | |
to make one particular point, David Anderson QC highlighted in his | :06:47. | :06:51. | |
December 2016 report that ports on the Western front could be a soft | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
underbelly when it comes to the silent's security. With over the | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
1680 miles of coast and relatively small lease forces covering vast | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
rural areas, the vast difficulty of policing the coastline is enormous. | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
Ports and police services in Wales are already facing immense pressure | :07:12. | :07:15. | |
as public service cuts have seen their capacity slashed. This is a | :07:16. | :07:18. | |
domestic issue as much as an international issue and there are | :07:19. | :07:23. | |
concerns that posts may be lost at ports if these cuts are to continue | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
and border forces we are aware would struggle to close these gaps. The | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
senior police officer has warned me we will miss people coming in. There | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
are concerns that the unresolved police funding formula and a high | :07:38. | :07:41. | |
priority accorded to urban adversity it will affect rural police forces | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
such as North Wales disproportionally and I would urge | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
the Minister of policing to consider the risks of oversimplifying the | :07:51. | :07:53. | |
number of funding indicators if it is evident that they take into | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
account the variation in policing needs and policing environment | :07:59. | :08:03. | |
across forces. Indeed I would like specifically to request the Minister | :08:04. | :08:11. | |
of policing with the future funding of North Wales Police and that in | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
the light of that which we are discussing today. From stopping the | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
smuggling of goods to outright acts of terrorism, if the Government is | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
serious on the continued security of this country then it must recognise | :08:25. | :08:27. | |
and address the unique issues faced by Wells police services. Brexit | :08:28. | :08:33. | |
must might mean more cut and more uncertainty for the forces that work | :08:34. | :08:42. | |
day in and day out to protect us. As the honourable Member for Hampstead | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
and Kilburn observed, one of the disadvantages of taking part so late | :08:47. | :08:49. | |
in a debate is that many of the things you might want to say have | :08:50. | :08:53. | |
been covered. The other disadvantage is that there are very few people | :08:54. | :08:56. | |
left to hear what he wanted to say but I wanted to take part in this | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
debate principally to make the case for differential arrangements to | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
take place in Scotland in a post-Brexit world. I do believe the | :09:05. | :09:10. | |
areas we are discussing here very much exemplify why that ought to be | :09:11. | :09:15. | |
the case. Policing and law enforcement in Scotland has long | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
been quite separate, both the structure and the administration, | :09:22. | :09:24. | |
the budget and of course the legislative framework and the | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
mandate from the criminal justice system which the police have | :09:28. | :09:36. | |
predates devolution. Devolution that the Scottish Government transferred | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
to a parliament elected in Scotland which didn't set up a separate | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
arrangement for policing and it didn't establish a separate criminal | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
justice system. No one has suggested that these matters should change | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
post-Brexit. At the same time I do hope the Minister in his reply will | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
have some acknowledgement of this and discuss how these arrangements | :09:57. | :10:01. | |
will be different and the process that needs to take place between now | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
and then in order to make that a reality. I want to talk about the | :10:06. | :10:09. | |
general political context within which this debate takes place. Some | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
of the criteria which informs public opinion and dialogue in Scotland, | :10:17. | :10:21. | |
members indeed in this house including members not represented in | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Scotland will know only too well that the politics of Scotland is | :10:26. | :10:30. | |
very largely influenced by the legacy of the 2014 independence | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
referendum. I don't want to go into that in any detail but I think there | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
are two aspects which took place which ended in September 2014 which | :10:39. | :10:42. | |
are very relevant to the debate which we are having today. The first | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
is about the relationship that people in Scotland would have with | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
the European Union. We were told in the that not only is the prospectus | :10:51. | :10:59. | |
for an independent Scotland a bad one because the position within the | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
EU could not be guaranteed that actually on the contrary that people | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
in Scotland wish to retain the European passports and the best way | :11:07. | :11:11. | |
they could do that was the vote to stay within the United Kingdom | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
because only that would guarantee that they would maintain their | :11:17. | :11:18. | |
relationship which they have with other European nations. The second | :11:19. | :11:25. | |
thing said was about the concept of respect. We were told that if people | :11:26. | :11:31. | |
voted to renew the union between Scotland and England and Wales and | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
Northern Ireland then this would not be a matter of opinions and views | :11:36. | :11:40. | |
being subsumed into a much larger neighbour but a partnership where | :11:41. | :11:45. | |
the dues of the people of Scotland would be respected and they would be | :11:46. | :11:51. | |
treated equally albeit in an asymmetrical relationship of power. | :11:52. | :11:55. | |
What has just happened with Brexit severely tests both of those | :11:56. | :12:02. | |
propositions. Clearly and we have yet to see what type of United | :12:03. | :12:07. | |
Kingdom emerges in a post-Brexit world, but many fear for a dystopian | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
future in which this country turns its back on the rest of the world | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
and becomes isolated and riven by sectarian and ethnic division. That | :12:18. | :12:21. | |
might not come to pass and I very much hope that it doesn't. What is | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
absolutely clear is that the United Kingdom of the future is going to be | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
manifestly different from the United Kingdom that was on the ballot paper | :12:30. | :12:35. | |
on the 18th of September 20 14. The other thing is about respect. That | :12:36. | :12:41. | |
is a notion sorely tested. Why because the public opinion as | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
expressed on the 23rd of June 20 16th on the matter of relationships | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
to other European nations is manifestly and palpably different in | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
Scotland than it is in England and Wales. That presents all of us with | :12:58. | :13:02. | |
something of a dilemma and I do hope given the muted tones and more | :13:03. | :13:07. | |
thoughtful nature of the atmosphere this afternoon that some of the | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
exchanges we have had on Brexit debate in recent weeks that we might | :13:12. | :13:17. | |
be able to actually confront these paradoxes and decide that together | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
we should do something positive about this. That is what the | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
Government has attempted to do. If you haven't read the Scottish paper | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
I would commend it to members of the House. It is a document which sets | :13:31. | :13:34. | |
out a prospectus for a deferential relationship that Scotland would | :13:35. | :13:38. | |
have in a post-Brexit world. It suggests that Scotland should be | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
given the authority and the competence to actually be an | :13:43. | :13:47. | |
associate Member of the European economic area because attitudes in | :13:48. | :13:49. | |
Scotland are different than they are in England and Wales. In particular | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
with regard to the freedom of movement of people across borders. I | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
want to make it absolutely clear and I would encourage people to | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
recognise this that the document that the Scottish Government has put | :14:04. | :14:07. | |
forward and with which it now campaigning for is not to say | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
Scotland should be an independent country and it is not to say that | :14:11. | :14:14. | |
any part of the United Kingdom should remain part of the European | :14:15. | :14:17. | |
Union and in that sense, its respects both the 2014 decision and | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
the 2016 decision and is trying to square the circle of opinion being | :14:24. | :14:26. | |
manifested differently north of the border than it is in the south. | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
Therefore it is a document I would commend and I think we should | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
explore. Will my honourable friend confirm that polling released this | :14:39. | :14:41. | |
afternoon shows that there is widespread support in Scotland for | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
the Scottish Government's plan to stay in the single market and indeed | :14:47. | :14:51. | |
in the early days after the EU Referendum, by the Secretary of | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
State for Scotland and the leader of the Conservative Unionist party Ruth | :14:56. | :14:57. | |
Davidson, were demanding Scotland should remain part of the single | :14:58. | :14:58. | |
market. Indeed so. Members will think we | :14:59. | :15:04. | |
have prepared this interchange. It is worth quoting the Secretary of | :15:05. | :15:09. | |
State for Scotland, when he said in June of this year, just after the | :15:10. | :15:13. | |
vote on Brexit, he said my role is to ensure Scotland gets the best | :15:14. | :15:17. | |
possible deal and that deal involves clearly being part of the single | :15:18. | :15:22. | |
market. Not my words, but the words of the Conservative Secretary of | :15:23. | :15:24. | |
State for Scotland. He may of course have changed his mind in the few | :15:25. | :15:31. | |
months in between. The Scottish Government dom suggests that there | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
are three levels of legislation that should be looked at in terms of how | :15:36. | :15:40. | |
we manage Brexit within these Islands and I hope no one would | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
suggest that such - that a decision, a constitutional decision of such | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
magnitude as to withdraw this country from its main international | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
association can be done without having any effect on the | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
constitutional arrangements within the country, it is clearly obvious | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
that's going to be the case. And there will have to be either as part | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
of the great repeal bill or as a separate bill, there will have to be | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
a new Scottish bill that gives new powers to the Scottish parliament. | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
The Scottish Government believes they fall into three areas. One is | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
that there are some areas which are going to be straight repatriated | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
from Brussels in which the Scottish Government already has competence | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
and they should go straight to Holyrood by making sure that they do | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
not stop on the way at Westminster. Secondly, there are areas of | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
additional legislative competence that should be given to the Scottish | :16:30. | :16:33. | |
Government as they are devolved from Brussels, particularly in the field | :16:34. | :16:36. | |
of employment legislation, and indeed to do with some immigration | :16:37. | :16:42. | |
matters, as well. Thirdly, if we can persuade the United Kingdom | :16:43. | :16:46. | |
Government to consent and support the idea of arrangements being | :16:47. | :16:51. | |
different in Scotland, but still consistent with leaving the European | :16:52. | :16:55. | |
Union, then there will need to be a legislative competence bill that | :16:56. | :16:57. | |
allows the Scottish Government to form those relationships in the | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
future. Now I think the debate that we are having today and the matters | :17:01. | :17:03. | |
we are discussing very much fall into category one. They are areas in | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
which the Scottish Government already will, with the exception | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
perhaps of security, but certainly in terms of criminal justice, and in | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
terms of law enforcement, these are areas in which the Scottish | :17:14. | :17:16. | |
Government already has competence and where the repatriation of powers | :17:17. | :17:22. | |
from Brussels should see that competence expanded. I therefore | :17:23. | :17:28. | |
want to finish by asking the Secretary of State - by asking the | :17:29. | :17:33. | |
ministers in their response to explain how and in what way the | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
dialogue is taking place between ministers of the Crown here at | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
Westminster and their Scottish counterparts about how these | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
arrangements should be made because I think there is matters of great | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
detail and expertise required here and it would seem to me a rather | :17:50. | :17:53. | |
ridiculous situation to simply say this is all a matter for the | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
department for exiting the EU. I think we need to explore in some | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
detail criminal justice, law enforcement and the relationship for | :18:04. | :18:07. | |
those aspects of the Scotland in terms of the security system, how | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
they will work post-Brexit and that shouldn't be just left to the Brexit | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
department, that should properly be a matter for the home department and | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
I hope that when they respond ministers will set out both an | :18:19. | :18:21. | |
intention to have that dialogue and suggest how it might take place. | :18:22. | :18:31. | |
Thank you. The Prime Minister in her speech yesterday made clear that one | :18:32. | :18:35. | |
of her objectives in exiting the European Union would be to release | :18:36. | :18:41. | |
the United Kingdom from the jurisdiction of the European Court | :18:42. | :18:43. | |
of justice. Questions to the Secretary of State for exiting the | :18:44. | :18:47. | |
European Union yesterday, the issue arose of how cross-border trade | :18:48. | :18:50. | |
disputes were to be settled if the UK refuses to be bound by the | :18:51. | :18:55. | |
rulings of the ECJ. The Secretary of State for exiting the European Union | :18:56. | :18:59. | |
did not give a comprehensive answer to how these disputes will be | :19:00. | :19:02. | |
arbitrated once the UK is outside the EU which raises the possibility | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
that he does not yet know. It gives me enormous concern that | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
the department for exiting the European Union does not yet have a | :19:11. | :19:15. | |
clear idea of how the role of the ECJ will replaced once we leave the | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
EU, whilst it might be possible to cobble together a compromise for | :19:22. | :19:23. | |
trade deals as the Secretary of State airily declared yesterday, the | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
ECJ has a greater role to play in our national life than just as the | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
arbiter of trade deals. As members of the EU we benefit from a range of | :19:32. | :19:36. | |
different schemes for sharing data and resources across borders. These | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
include the Schengen information system, Europol, the European | :19:44. | :19:45. | |
criminal records information system amongst many others. We collaborate | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
with our European neighbours on matters relating to family law, | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
asylum and the freezing of assets. The Prime Minister has of herself | :19:54. | :19:56. | |
argued passionately in favour of these measures as Home Secretary and | :19:57. | :19:59. | |
when leading the Government's case for opting into 35 justice and home | :20:00. | :20:04. | |
affairs measures in 2014, in this very House the Prime Minister argued | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
that without such measures we would risk harmful individuals walking | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
free and escaping justice and would seriously harm the capability of our | :20:12. | :20:14. | |
law enforcement agencies to keep the public safe. | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
Our membership of the EU gives us an automatic right to the co-operation | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
of our EU neighbours in all of these measures. Once we exit the European | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
Union we will lose this automatic right. As we have seen with the | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
single market, the Prime Minister and her Cabinet are failing to | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
support measures they have spent their whole careers championing as | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
fundamental to our security and public life. It is entirely possible | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
that we can negotiate a new agreement to maintain access to data | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
and resources. The UK has been instrumental in setting up many of | :20:46. | :20:47. | |
the cross-border police and crime systems that the EU has adopted and | :20:48. | :20:51. | |
our contribution will be missed when we leave. It is to be hoped that | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
this will provide a powerful negotiating tool when we come to | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
strike a new deal. However, so much of this cross-border co-operation | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
and data-sharing depends upon all parties accepting the jurisdiction | :21:05. | :21:07. | |
of the ECJ. There are several reasons for this. First, the EU can | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
only act in compliance with the charter of fundamental rights. The | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
ECJ is the ultimate arbiter of this. It is therefore impossible for the | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
EU to sign an agreement with the UK that conflicts with either the | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
charter or with ECJ case law. Second, any agreement needs to be | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
policed. If the UK acted in way that is breached the terms of this | :21:28. | :21:30. | |
agreement it would be open to an EU citizen to take a case to the ECJ | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
and have the EU's decision concluding the agreement annulled. | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
Third, the developing jur is prudence of the ECJ is binding on EU | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
member states. If the UK failed to keep pace with legal developments on | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
the continent or diverged from EU law in any significant matter, then | :21:49. | :21:52. | |
a gap would open up. The international deals that the EU | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
signs with third countries tend to include a mechanism for discussing | :21:57. | :21:59. | |
legal divergence, including the ability to allow the agreement to be | :22:00. | :22:04. | |
terminated if the differences cannot be reconciled. The UK would have to | :22:05. | :22:08. | |
stick closely to the rulings of the ECJ in order to avoid the agreement | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
being annulled one of the most valuable contributions that | :22:14. | :22:15. | |
membership of the European Union makes to the UK's continuing | :22:16. | :22:19. | |
security is the sharing of data between national police and | :22:20. | :22:22. | |
intelligence agencies. But the sharing of personal data must be | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
subject to the stricter safeguards to prevent misuse. Within the EU, | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
all countries have signed up to data protection legislation that governs | :22:31. | :22:34. | |
the sharing of this data. Once the UK has left the jurisdiction of the | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
ECJ which oversees the legislation that governs this data-sharing any | :22:41. | :22:42. | |
bespoke agreement will have to be continued to be governed by similar | :22:43. | :22:47. | |
levels of protection. Should UK law diverge from EU law on data | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
protection, then any agreement will become void if the ECJ deems that UK | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
law is insufficient to protect European citizens data. This would | :22:58. | :23:00. | |
result in the flow of data from the EU to the UK being immediately | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
stopped, putting at risk the ability of British police and security | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
forces to investigate and prosecute potential threats. Given the Prime | :23:09. | :23:12. | |
Minister's determination as expressed yesterday to cut all ties | :23:13. | :23:15. | |
with the European Court of justice, I urge the Secretary of State for | :23:16. | :23:19. | |
exiting the European Union to form with the utmost urgency a proposal | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
for the future of information-sharing and co-operation | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
on security matters between the UK and the European Union. He needs to | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
set out detailed plans for how this collaboration can be continued. If | :23:31. | :23:34. | |
the UK will not accept the jurisdiction of the ECJ. He also | :23:35. | :23:38. | |
needs to state how the risks of any bespoke arrangement will be | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
addressed, especially the risk that UK and ECJ case law diverge in the | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
future making negotiated arrangements untenable. I hope that | :23:47. | :23:49. | |
members on all sides of this debate will acknowledge that the full | :23:50. | :23:53. | |
implications of rejecting the ECJ were not put to voters in the | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
referendum campaign and that had they been so the Prime Minister | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
might not now be so determined to remove the UK from its jurisdiction. | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
I hope that the very real risks to our future security are being | :24:04. | :24:06. | |
properly considered by the Secretary of State and look forward to hearing | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
greater detail of his proposals in due course. | :24:12. | :24:16. | |
It is a great pleasure to follow the honourable lady, the member for | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
Richmond Park. The constituency is very close to my heart because I | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
fought my first parliamentary election as the Labour candidate in | :24:27. | :24:32. | |
Richmond Park. I lost by I think 26,000 votes. However, it was enough | :24:33. | :24:41. | |
to ensure the election of a Conservative member, Jeremy Handily | :24:42. | :24:43. | |
and I know the Liberal Democrats were very angry with me because Alan | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
Watson, now in other place, lost by a very small margin. So at least I | :24:49. | :24:53. | |
have the comfort of knowing that she has been elected as the member for | :24:54. | :24:56. | |
Richmond Park and I wish her well in her career which I am sure will be | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
long and distinguished. I have to say I was very fond of the former | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
member for Richmond Park, who was always extremely courtups and who | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
had great respect for the House and I know great respect and affection | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
for you. I am sorry I missed the speech of my honourable friend the | :25:14. | :25:19. | |
member for Stoke-on-Trent Central. Because I was very, very sad indeed | :25:20. | :25:24. | |
to hear that he was to leave this House to take up an appointment | :25:25. | :25:34. | |
outside. I feel I was there at the birth, the political birth of my | :25:35. | :25:43. | |
honourable friend because I sat on the panel where he was interviewed | :25:44. | :25:47. | |
for the Stoke-on-Trent Central seat. I have to say that was, I think we | :25:48. | :25:53. | |
had interviewed 25 people and the honourable gentleman came in. He was | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
so stunning in his interview and we were so impressed that we | :25:58. | :26:03. | |
immediately put him on the shortlips and he was selected by a large | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
majority by the members in Stoke-on-Trent. I remember a comment | :26:09. | :26:13. | |
made by one of the panelists who said that one day the honourable | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
member would become the leader of the Labour Party and Prime Minister | :26:18. | :26:23. | |
of this country. Instead, he has gone for a better paid job, probably | :26:24. | :26:29. | |
with much better influence and less stress as the director of the V | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
and his amazing career outside this House has been matched by his | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
complete devotion and dedication to the people of Stoke-on-Trent | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
Central. I know because I went up over the last five years, I have | :26:45. | :26:49. | |
been up twice in fact, and I know the great affection that local | :26:50. | :26:57. | |
people have for him. He's debt indicated, hard-working, he will be | :26:58. | :27:01. | |
-- he is dedicated, hard-working, but we wish him well. He is going to | :27:02. | :27:05. | |
keep those museums free and we are all going to visit him at his first | :27:06. | :27:11. | |
exhibition. We wish him well. What was good about this debate, was the | :27:12. | :27:19. | |
fact that the passion of both front benches, an extraordinarily good | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
speech from the member for West Ham, and another good speech from the | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
Policing Minister, both supported the immensely important role that we | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
play in terms of justice and security in the EU. In fact, I don't | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
think that there was any difference between what the front benches said | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
on this particular subject. They all realised how important it was that | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
we should remain at the forefront of this agenda in the European Union, | :27:49. | :27:52. | |
even though we are leaving the European Union. The Minister spoke | :27:53. | :27:58. | |
with all the passion of someone who supported the Remain campaign during | :27:59. | :28:03. | |
the referendum. He reminded us about the importance of these | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
institutions, how vital it is that we remain part of them in some way | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
or another. What is significant, of course, is that we lead the rest of | :28:15. | :28:19. | |
Europe as far as justice and security is concerned. We need the | :28:20. | :28:26. | |
European Union, but they also need us in a whole variety of | :28:27. | :28:29. | |
organisations and institutions and in a whole variety of ways. I know a | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
number of honourable members and right honourable members on the | :28:36. | :28:39. | |
front bench mentioned Europol. I am a great fan of Europol as is the | :28:40. | :28:45. | |
Shadow Minister and I want to pay tribute to the excellent work that | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
Rob Wayne write does, how rare it has been in all the years that we | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
have been members of the EU that we have a Brit at the head of an EU | :28:55. | :29:01. | |
agency or organisation and what an incredibly good job Rob Wainwright | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
hasz done as the drek for of Europol and I hope in discussions and | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
negotiations we have, I know the Prime Minister is keen we don't just | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
have bits of the EU, but this is a bit that we desperately need. We | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
desperately need to be part of this organisation that has a proven | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
record in dealing with organised and serious crime. As far as the | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
migration crisis is concerned, this terrible crisis that's gripped the | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
EU over the last few years, it is the involvement and the support of | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
Europol from the Hague that has been so vital to the hot spots that have | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
been created. I give way. I thank my honourable way for giving way. Many | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
years ago when I was a member of the home affairs Select Committee we had | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
a dem stranges, we actually went to Holland and had a demonstration of | :29:56. | :30:05. | |
Europol. Through that organisation it helps the British police forces | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
to do the very same thing through getting information from Interpol | :30:10. | :30:12. | |
and its connections. Indeed. My honourable friend is right. He knew | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
about it then and I remind him now, I know the Minister is busy tweeting | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
parts of my speech on his Twitter account! But if I can occupy his | :30:22. | :30:26. | |
time for just one moment, and tell him that it is possible for us to | :30:27. | :30:32. | |
get an arrangement with Europol that will not mean we are sitting on the | :30:33. | :30:37. | |
management board of Europol but we are very near that position and we | :30:38. | :30:41. | |
know from watching what the United States has done that it is possible | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
to be there. It's not as good as running the organisation, but it is | :30:49. | :30:51. | |
near the centre of power. That's where we need to be as far as it is | :30:52. | :30:53. | |
concerned. I'm sure the policing minister has | :30:54. | :31:10. | |
had officers saying this to him how important it is that we stay a part | :31:11. | :31:14. | |
of that so at the very least we should be up to negotiate something | :31:15. | :31:17. | |
equivalent to what the United States has. Where we have a room, we have a | :31:18. | :31:25. | |
desk and we have access to the kind of information that we so | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
desperately need. As far as the criminal records situation is | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
concerned, and the minister responded to on Icarus but we don't | :31:34. | :31:42. | |
have details. I spoke to Ian redhead yesterday who of course runs the | :31:43. | :31:53. | |
system from Hampshire and he told me about the absolutely vital | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
importance of our country having access to this system. That means we | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
know exactly where people are and if they have committed an offence we | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
are able to go back to their countries and within minutes, they | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
will give us results of whether or not a person has a criminal | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
conviction. We have had 200,000 foreign national offenders arrested | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
in our country last year, 100,000 of these are EU nationals which is why | :32:25. | :32:28. | |
it is extremely important that we have access to this database. This | :32:29. | :32:36. | |
is not extended to any non-EU members. They are the rules. | :32:37. | :32:45. | |
Switzerland and Norway have access to this database simply because they | :32:46. | :32:47. | |
are members of the Schengen agreement. We have no prospect of | :32:48. | :32:59. | |
joining this so we have to be careful in negotiations that we are | :33:00. | :33:01. | |
involved and to ensure that we have this information and the ability to | :33:02. | :33:09. | |
get the data from the rest of the European Union. We heard from the | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
Member of Kingston and Surbiton who is the House resident expert, after | :33:15. | :33:27. | |
some delay the Government has opted in but have not seen any of the data | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
until later this year to the DNA fingerprinting expertise that we | :33:33. | :33:38. | |
need will not come to us until later this year. I hope the Minister will | :33:39. | :33:53. | |
ensure that we can and if it -- and can benefit up until we leave and | :33:54. | :33:58. | |
when we leave we have an agreement which allows us access to the | :33:59. | :34:09. | |
important information. I don't think anyone so far has mentioned the | :34:10. | :34:12. | |
issue foreign national offenders. The latest figures show us over 4000 | :34:13. | :34:18. | |
EU national offenders are in the United Kingdom costing 169 million | :34:19. | :34:27. | |
pounds a year. Top of the list is Poland, nitrogen and 83 prisoners, | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
700 from Ireland and 635 from Romania. The committee will remember | :34:34. | :34:42. | |
us questioning the Minister of prisons on this issue and we could | :34:43. | :34:48. | |
not understand why since we have a prisoner transfer arrangement with | :34:49. | :34:50. | |
Poland that both Poland and the United Kingdom remain in the | :34:51. | :34:56. | |
European Union and why we are not able to transfer Polish prisoners | :34:57. | :35:00. | |
back to Poland. Of course the answer came back to us from a senior | :35:01. | :35:06. | |
official that they probably could have been transferred. I think it is | :35:07. | :35:13. | |
important that we look at this area, especially if we can try to do the | :35:14. | :35:21. | |
prisoner swap before we leave the European Union, otherwise once we | :35:22. | :35:24. | |
come out of the union, Poland will be in exactly the same situation as | :35:25. | :35:29. | |
any other country as far as prisoner transfer arrangements are concerned. | :35:30. | :35:38. | |
That is why we should ensure this happens as quickly as possible. A | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
number of members mentioned the issue of the European arrest warrant | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
and my honourable friend for West Ham made an impressive speech on | :35:49. | :35:55. | |
this particular point. I have concerns about the European arrest | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
warrant, simply because I think the warrants are being issued by other | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
countries on the basis of their law and therefore their constitutions | :36:06. | :36:12. | |
and in some cases the warrants are being issued for minor offences and | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
our system is being clogged up with a number of arrest warrants are been | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
issued against nationals of other EU countries. Would like to think we | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
are much more careful for we issue these arrest warrants. It should be | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
for serious and important issues and offences, not for someone stealing a | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
bicycle in another part of the EU which has been the case. As he | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
negotiates with the rest of the EU, here is an opportunity to be able to | :36:44. | :36:50. | |
look at this issue in new whilst accepting the importance of the | :36:51. | :36:53. | |
principle of the European arrest warrant. Also looking at the defects | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
that are inherent in the European arrest warrant because it is a great | :37:00. | :37:06. | |
scheme but has its flaws and this is an opportunity to ensure that the | :37:07. | :37:13. | |
floors are dealt with. My final point relates to EU nationals who | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
are living in this country. As I said to the chairman of the Home | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
Affairs Select Commitee, issued by the answer, I don't know the answer | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
and I don't know if we are having another debate on leaving the E and | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
home affairs issues. Other than the ones we are having today. I would've | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
thought it is essential that we clarify the position of EU nationals | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
living in this country. The Prime Minister gave a guarantee in her | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
speech yesterday that they would be allowed to remain here in tandem | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
with British citizens being allowed to remain in the EU. That is short | :37:51. | :37:57. | |
of an absolute commitment which I think everyone in this house, | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
members on all sides have said this is what the Government should do, | :38:02. | :38:05. | |
give a commitment that EU citizen should stay because now we have even | :38:06. | :38:10. | |
more uncertainty. What is the cut-off date for the EU citizens who | :38:11. | :38:15. | |
are residents in this country? Is the 23rd of June, everybody here on | :38:16. | :38:22. | |
the 23rd of June will be allowed to remain as residents, is it the date | :38:23. | :38:26. | |
which triggered Brexit or is it the date we leave the European Union? I | :38:27. | :38:33. | |
realised the difficulty, they don't want to set a date in future because | :38:34. | :38:37. | |
they will be fearful lots of people will suddenly arrived in order to | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
claim residents that there is going to be huge problem in processing | :38:42. | :38:49. | |
these 3.5 EU residents. He don't require a passport to enter some | :38:50. | :38:55. | |
countries, Italians come on an Italian identity card, that isn't | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
stamped, you cannot stump an identity card and because you are | :39:01. | :39:05. | |
allowed in, no matter what the Government say, if you present your | :39:06. | :39:14. | |
EU passport or your identity card, they would he knows when you have | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
arrived so how are you going to process 3.5 million people in the | :39:19. | :39:26. | |
space of two years? That is why the best course of action is to make | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
that commitment Bell, to say we will allow EU citizens to remain here and | :39:31. | :39:36. | |
to set the date so that there is no uncertainty all rush in the future. | :39:37. | :39:42. | |
This is something that we can get clarified at a very early stage | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
rather than waiting until the end of the process. There are still EU | :39:46. | :39:50. | |
nationals seeking employment in this country who have been told by | :39:51. | :39:54. | |
employers that they will not be able to stay, they may not be given jobs, | :39:55. | :40:02. | |
who may not appeal to rent accommodation regarding landlords | :40:03. | :40:04. | |
and tenants because you have too no show your passport if you're going | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
to rent property in the United Kingdom. It is essential we have | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
this clarified. Whatever the detail, it's good to see the former | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
Immigration Minister here as I talk about these matters. Whatever the | :40:17. | :40:23. | |
detail, these are going to be very complicated negotiations. They are | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
not going to be easy. As far as the issue of enforcement and criminal | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
justice is concerned, we need regular reports back to this house | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
on how this is going because it affects the safety and security of | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
our citizens. And the primary task of any government is to protect its | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
citizens and that is why it's important that we get as much | :40:52. | :41:01. | |
information as possible. Thank you Mr Speaker. This has been an | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
important debate if a somewhat select affair. There have been many | :41:06. | :41:08. | |
excellent contributions from colleagues. The safety and security | :41:09. | :41:13. | |
of citizens is the first responsibility of any government. | :41:14. | :41:15. | |
Given the needs of the UK and EU Member states to collaborate and to | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
coordinate intelligence and share information, this debate matters. It | :41:21. | :41:26. | |
is a good signal of the Government intentions to maintain close | :41:27. | :41:30. | |
relationships on security, law enforcement and criminal justice. | :41:31. | :41:38. | |
But there are other important issues to debate urgently. Freedom of | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
movement, principles for negotiating new trade deals, change to single | :41:44. | :41:46. | |
market membership, associate membership of the customs union, | :41:47. | :41:52. | |
while come the general debates we have had so far, I cannot help but | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
wonder if the Government is avoiding to debate some of the most important | :41:58. | :42:07. | |
and crucial issues. The minister has said he wants a future relationship | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
on Security and law enforcement and we welcome this. Maintaining a close | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
relationship and security is vital, our security must not be compromised | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
by the departure from the EU. As the Member for Leicester East said, it | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
is good to hear both frontbenchers agree on this important point. It is | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
in our national interest to continue the closest collaboration with these | :42:31. | :42:34. | |
issues, we must maintain an ability to participate in the European | :42:35. | :42:39. | |
arrest warrant, Europol membership and information sharing, especially | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
via the Schengen information system. We need these to stay so. Justice | :42:45. | :42:49. | |
and security were barely mentioned drink the referendum campaign and | :42:50. | :42:52. | |
the Government has no mandate to water down such measures. The | :42:53. | :42:58. | |
European arrest warrant is strong and the Prime Minister in particular | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
has favoured the European arrest warrant participation previously and | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
the current arrangements must be maintained and the Minister must | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
outline not just his commitment to the arrest warrant but signal how he | :43:13. | :43:18. | |
ensures the arrest warrant is maintained to the UK benefit. The | :43:19. | :43:24. | |
similarity Europol benefit is vital. Anything less has been described as | :43:25. | :43:28. | |
damage limitation. Will we still have access to the same databases | :43:29. | :43:32. | |
and sources of information afterward have left? Howell ministers ensure | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
that privacy laws to not encumber our access? The Government needs to | :43:38. | :43:44. | |
ensure and explain how it will ensure that Britain's security and | :43:45. | :43:48. | |
safety is in no way diminished. And this is not trade, vital as it is, | :43:49. | :43:55. | |
this is the most fundamental of duties of any government. Our | :43:56. | :43:59. | |
security and safety are not to be weakened. Our partners need to know | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
that we intend to work together more closely than ever as threats emerge | :44:04. | :44:08. | |
we must work with allies as good partners, more, not less closely. | :44:09. | :44:13. | |
The right Honourable Member for Mid Sussex spoke with great care and | :44:14. | :44:19. | |
authority of the need to sustain our involvement with international | :44:20. | :44:23. | |
bodies, like many who campaign to remain in the EU, he accepts that we | :44:24. | :44:27. | |
are leaving. But he like the rest of us sees the danger of departing | :44:28. | :44:31. | |
without resolving the very serious and vital issues of security. The UK | :44:32. | :44:38. | |
recently opted in the adopted regulation of Europol and the | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
Government passed the test of its resolve. Good intentions are not | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
sufficient. The Member for Edinburgh South West spoke of the need for | :44:47. | :44:51. | |
ministers to explain how the UK can remain part of existing structures | :44:52. | :44:56. | |
on equivalent terms. The detail counts. This house will hold the | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
Government to its stated objective of maintaining our current | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
beneficial relationship. The chairman of the justice select | :45:06. | :45:08. | |
committee urged the Government not to rule out making financial | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
contributions that may be required so that we can continue to benefit | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
in particular from intelligence databases. This is a most reasonable | :45:15. | :45:21. | |
request. Will ministers confirmed that they will not dogmatically | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
declined to make such contributions for domestic and political reasons, | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
thereby putting our information sharing processes at risk. We have | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
all agreed this evening how important security and cooperation | :45:35. | :45:38. | |
is to the safety of our citizens. This is the closest to consensus we | :45:39. | :45:41. | |
are ever likely to succeed in this chamber. | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
That is as the chair of the Home Affairs Select Committee this | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
agreement in this house doesn't mean achieving the right outcome will be | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
easy. It won't. Hence her call for an explanation of how the Government | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
intends to proceed. The member the Pontefract and Castleford gave the | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
example of Europe all's success in achieving arrest since child sexual | :46:09. | :46:17. | |
exploitation cases. We want to identify and detain individuals | :46:18. | :46:19. | |
responsible for such crimes that capacity is in no way diminished. | :46:20. | :46:23. | |
This ought to be possible, but it does require consistent and | :46:24. | :46:26. | |
unwavering resolve from the Government. These matters must not | :46:27. | :46:30. | |
be up for negotiation. There can be no trading these issues away. The | :46:31. | :46:37. | |
Prime Minister spoke of not wanting to retain bits of membership, but as | :46:38. | :46:46. | |
the chairman of the exiting the EU select committee said, collaborating | :46:47. | :46:48. | |
on justice and security is not a bit, it is a vital tool in securing | :46:49. | :46:54. | |
safety in this country. With this in mind, will the Minister commit to | :46:55. | :46:59. | |
ensuring a transitional agreement, which protects us from any | :47:00. | :47:04. | |
interruption in access to data and intelligence? The member for | :47:05. | :47:07. | |
Hampstead and Kilburn made an excellent speech detailing their | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
specific concerns of her London constituents. She wants reassurance, | :47:12. | :47:16. | |
as do we all, that cooperation, security and law enforcement | :47:17. | :47:25. | |
measures outlast our EU membership. Lastly, Mr Speaker, I want to | :47:26. | :47:30. | |
finally turn to the contribution of the member for Stoke Central. It was | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
a privilege to sit by him as he made his maiden speech almost seven years | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
ago, and I'm pleased, although I didn't know he was going to be | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
speaking for the final time in this house today, to be able to take this | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
chance to wish him well in his new and exciting role. He has always | :47:48. | :47:53. | |
conducted himself with the utmost courtesy, speaking on issues as | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
important as social mobility and those niche as the management of | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
British waterways. I will miss him and I know others will, too. I know | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
he's found opposition frustrating, banging your head against a brick | :48:07. | :48:11. | |
wall isn't for everyone! I feel confident that he will use his new | :48:12. | :48:17. | |
role to make a difference on inclusion, in broadening opportunity | :48:18. | :48:18. | |
and I wish him every success. May I say what an excellent debate | :48:19. | :48:35. | |
this has been. And the debate a very high calibre, attended by no fewer | :48:36. | :48:38. | |
than five chairs of select committees. The issue of security, | :48:39. | :48:44. | |
law enforcement and criminal justice is, of course, of significant | :48:45. | :48:50. | |
importance in the context of Britain's withdrawal from the | :48:51. | :48:53. | |
European Union. I'm sure honourable members can acknowledge the value of | :48:54. | :48:59. | |
this debate, the fourth in the series promised by the Secretary of | :49:00. | :49:03. | |
State, and which have proven to be of real assistance to the | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
Government, not least this particular debate, as might | :49:07. | :49:10. | |
honourable friend pointed out, is about an issue that impinges | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
directly on all of our citizens. As the Prime Minister made clear | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
yesterday, a global Britain will wish to continue to cooperate with | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
its European allies on tackling crime and terrorism, and this is in | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
the interest not only of the United Kingdom, but also of the continuing | :49:29. | :49:34. | |
European Union, given the significant strength that we can | :49:35. | :49:37. | |
bring to the table. One of the 12 objectives that the | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
Prime Minister outlined yesterday for the negotiations ahead will be | :49:42. | :49:45. | |
to establish a new relationship, which enables the United Kingdom and | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
the European Union to continue practical cooperation, to tackle | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
cross-border crime and to keep all our people say. | :49:55. | :49:59. | |
My right honourable friend the Secretary of State reiterated this | :50:00. | :50:05. | |
to the House yesterday and made clear during his appearance before | :50:06. | :50:10. | |
the select committee in December that a future relationship on | :50:11. | :50:14. | |
security, law enforcement and criminal Justice cooperation will be | :50:15. | :50:17. | |
one of the Government's priorities when the negotiations commence. | :50:18. | :50:24. | |
Whilst the UK is leading leaving the European Union it is self-evidently | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
not leaving Europe. The reality of cross-border crime and the threats | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
to security will remain. In December, as referred to by the | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
honourable member for Edinburgh South West, the House of Lords EU | :50:39. | :50:41. | |
Home Affairs Select Committee report on this subject concluded there was | :50:42. | :50:47. | |
a shed, strong mutual interest between the United Kingdom on the 27 | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
continuing EU member states, to make sure cooperation in tackling these | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
threats continues. To this end, the United Kingdom already has strong | :50:59. | :51:01. | |
bilateral relationships with member states in other countries across the | :51:02. | :51:06. | |
globe that help address security threats and serious organised crime, | :51:07. | :51:09. | |
as well as facilitating the delivery of effective justice. | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
We intend to continue that close cooperation with our European and | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
global allies on promoting security and justice across Europe after we | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
leave. Mr Speaker, our position... Yes, I | :51:23. | :51:30. | |
will give way. In my remarks I did refer to, and in | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
fact when he came before my European scrutiny committee a few weeks ago, | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
to the question of the attitude to be adopted in relation to the count | :51:40. | :51:45. | |
of votes of ministers. Will we give an indication towards the trend to | :51:46. | :51:50. | |
make sure where we stand on Brexit matters, within the framework of the | :51:51. | :51:55. | |
decision-making process? Yes, well, clearly as my honourable | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
friend has pointed out, there is now a change in the staffing, so far as | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
the United Kingdom is concerned. As we move closer to Brexit, | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
particularly after we have triggered Article 50, it is inevitable that | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
that position will develop and change. | :52:15. | :52:20. | |
Mr Speaker, there were a number of points made by honourable members | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
during the course of the debate. In the short time available to me I | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
would like to comment on as many of them as I possibly can. The | :52:28. | :52:33. | |
honourable member for West Ham asked what guarantees can be given that | :52:34. | :52:37. | |
security and law enforcement will not be compromised as a consequence | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
of our departure from the European Union. | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
Well, of course, we haven't yet started the process of negotiation, | :52:47. | :52:49. | |
we haven't even yet triggered Article 50. We are leaving the EU, | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
which as I've previously indicated, cooperation on law enforcement and | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
security with our European and global allies will remain a priority | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
for the Government. The Prime Minister and the Home Secretary have | :53:04. | :53:07. | |
both spoken with several EU partners, who have been clear about | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
their wish to maintain strong cooperation with the United Kingdom, | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
and that is a good basis for starting that negotiation. But | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
clearly we are very early days. My right honourable friend, the | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
honourable member for Mid Sussex made what I thought was an excellent | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
speech. He referred to the Prime Minister's on speech and made it | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
clear that it is important that the United Kingdom continues to be a | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
close friend of the continuing EU. That is certainly the spirit in | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
which the Government intends to approach these negotiations. | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
The honourable member for Edinburgh South West and a number of other | :53:46. | :53:53. | |
members raised the issue of data protection is, data protection in | :53:54. | :53:57. | |
the continuing EU, and the extent to which the continuing EU would wish | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
to share data or would be able to share data with the United Kingdom. | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
What I would point out that regard is of course that on the day of | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
departure, the United Kingdom's data protection arrangements will be in | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
perfect alignment with those of the continuing EU. Forgive me, I have | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
very little time. But that again will be a good basis | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
for continuing those negotiations. LAUGHTER | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
My honourable friend, the member for Bromley and Chislehurst, the | :54:34. | :54:36. | |
chairman of the Justice select committee, raised the issue of the | :54:37. | :54:41. | |
European Arrest Warrant. He said that the United Kingdom | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
should seek to remain within the arrangements of the arrest warrant | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
and said effectively that we should be seeking to be pragmatic in the | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
future negotiations. That is certainly the case, so far as the | :54:55. | :54:59. | |
United Kingdom government is concerned, similarly we look for | :55:00. | :55:01. | |
pragmatism from our continuing EU colleagues. | :55:02. | :55:07. | |
A number of Honourable members, those for West Ham, Bath, Hampstead | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
in Kilburn, Richmond Park and Leicester East raised the issue of | :55:13. | :55:17. | |
what access we would have 2 euros poll. Again, we are clearly at a | :55:18. | :55:26. | |
very early stage in the negotiations. The negotiations | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
clearly will take some time to progress, but the Prime Minister has | :55:30. | :55:35. | |
stated law enforcement cooperation will certainly continue once the | :55:36. | :55:39. | |
United Kingdom has left the EU, and we are exploring options for | :55:40. | :55:44. | |
cooperation arrangements with Eurpol once the United Kingdom has left the | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
EU. To repeat, these are very early days. The right honourable... Yes, I | :55:50. | :55:55. | |
will briefly. I will be very brief, I know he has a limited amount of | :55:56. | :56:03. | |
time. 30 just clarify this point... He said negotiations are at an early | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
stage. I understood that there are no negotiations until Article 50 has | :56:08. | :56:14. | |
been triggered. Is he telling the House that negotiations in this area | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
have actually begun, even though they are at an early stage? | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
He is absolutely right. The negotiations are at such an early | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
stage that they haven't yet commenced! So to that extent, he is | :56:27. | :56:33. | |
quite right and he has chastised me and I am pleased to stand corrected. | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
The right honourable member for Normanton, Pontefract and Castleford | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
asked whether there was anything in the European, the new treaties to | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
prevent us becoming, continuing to be a member of Europol. I understand | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
that the EU treaties do not allow for non-EU members to join Europol | :56:54. | :57:01. | |
as full members, but we, of course, as has already been indicated are | :57:02. | :57:06. | |
seeking bespoke arrangements with the European Union in this regard | :57:07. | :57:12. | |
and access to Europol on as enhanced basis as possible is something we | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
would wish to pursue. Yes, I will way. | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
Given evidence to the select committee that suggested although | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
the treaties did not provide for it, they also did not rule it out. So it | :57:24. | :57:29. | |
would be helpful to accept the Government's interpretation. | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
Certainly the position as I understand it, as I have just | :57:34. | :57:39. | |
stated. But this is a matter that I shall pursue and investigate. But | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
the position as I understand it, I have just set out. | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
My honourable friend the member for Bath asked whether the United | :57:50. | :57:51. | |
Kingdom would be putting human rights at the forefront of our | :57:52. | :57:56. | |
negotiating agenda. Certainly the United Kingdom has, of course, a | :57:57. | :58:02. | |
very long-standing tradition of ensuring that our rights, traditions | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
and liberties are protected and we see no reason to depart from that. I | :58:07. | :58:09. | |
will give way. Thank you for giving way. There is a | :58:10. | :58:17. | |
responsibility over the Crown dependencies, I just spent two days | :58:18. | :58:20. | |
with the select committee talking to the Government on the Isle of Man. | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
They have a simple message, will the Minister come to the dispatch box | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
and say the Crown dependencies will not be forgotten throughout this | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
process of any agreement reached with the rest of the European Union? | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
I can give the honourable gentleman that assurance. There have been many | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
meetings with representatives of the Crown dependencies and this will | :58:43. | :58:44. | |
continue all the way through the process of exit from the European | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
Union. The honourable member for Kingston | :58:48. | :58:55. | |
and Surbiton rightly reminded us that many security arrangements are | :58:56. | :58:59. | |
done largely on a bilateral basis. And that the United Kingdom has | :59:00. | :59:03. | |
significant strengths in this regard and he is quite right. Of course, | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
those arrangements will continue and will not be disturbed by our | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
departure from the European Union. The right honourable member for | :59:13. | :59:22. | |
Leeds Central, who chairs the select committee, congratulated my | :59:23. | :59:24. | |
department for its speedy response to his most recent report, at least | :59:25. | :59:31. | |
in two respects. I'm glad to see that we are giving satisfaction. | :59:32. | :59:41. | |
He asked whether the department would be publishing and when its | :59:42. | :59:47. | |
economic analysis that underpins the plan that was outlined by the Prime | :59:48. | :59:52. | |
Minister yesterday. I can assure him that the analysis that he refers to | :59:53. | :59:56. | |
is one that is continuing, and it will continue for some time. But he | :59:57. | :00:03. | |
must understand that I am sure he does understand, that to go into too | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
much detail about that analysis at this particular stage could | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
compromise our negotiating position, but again, I give him the assurance | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
he sat before, that as time passes, we will consider and reconsider the | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
issue of how much information should be passed to his committee. | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
Can I seek an assurance that he says the analysis is continuing. Can he | :00:30. | :00:37. | |
tell the House that it's not going to continue for another two and a | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
half years so as to avoid the need to publish anything before the | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
negotiations are considered? It does seem to the select committee | :00:45. | :00:48. | |
perfectly reasonable without comprising the Government's | :00:49. | :00:51. | |
negotiating hand to reveal to the House and to the public what is the | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
analysis of the different options. Because it will help to inform a | :00:56. | :00:59. | |
view that people want to reach about the plan of the Government has set | :01:00. | :01:03. | |
out. I have no doubt that analysis will continue for some considerable | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
time. Whether it continues for two and a half years, I doubt. But I've | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
heard of the right Honourable gentleman had to say and we will | :01:13. | :01:15. | |
continue to consider the position. But at this particular stage, I | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
believe that it would compromise the negotiation. We heard from the | :01:20. | :01:25. | |
honourable member for Stoke-on-Trent Central in his valedictory | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
contribution to the House. Could I, on behalf of members of the side of | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
the House, wishing very well in his future endeavours. -- wish him very | :01:34. | :01:41. | |
well. He reminded us quite correctly that Britain, the United Kingdom, is | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
part of the greater European culture. I'm sure that under his | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
direction, the Victoria and Albert Museum will continue to reflect | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
that. I do wish you well. My honourable friend the member for | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
Stone made a contribution in which she expressed concern of the use for | :02:04. | :02:09. | |
the European arrest warrant for crimes that he regarded as trivial. | :02:10. | :02:14. | |
The European arrest warrant was radically reformed by the previous | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
coalition government to offer better protection for British citizens and | :02:18. | :02:20. | |
others are subject to extradition proceedings. British citizens can no | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
longer be extradited where a case is not try already, where the conduct | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
that took place is within the United Kingdom, or where it is simply not | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
proportionate to do so. And these protections are set out in United | :02:35. | :02:41. | |
Kingdom legislation. Concerns about the European arrest warrant were | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
also expressed by my honourable friend, the member for stroke, who | :02:45. | :02:54. | |
raised a specific case. -- the member for Stoke. My right | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
honourable friend has attended to the points made. His concerns about | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
the use of the European arrest warrant were also expressed by the | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
Right Honourable member for Leicester East. The honourable | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
member raised the issue of the Common travel area. That is a matter | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
of concern. The Common travel area is something that long predates our | :03:22. | :03:28. | |
membership, our island's membership of the European Union. It goes back | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
to 1923 and the Government has made it very clear that preserving those | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
arrangements are something that we regard as at the forefront of our | :03:37. | :03:38. | |
mind as we approach the negotiations. The honourable member | :03:39. | :03:44. | |
for Edinburgh East raised the issue of respect for Scotland in the | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
United Kingdom. And he referred to what he described as the spectre of | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
a dystopian future in which the United Kingdom turns in on itself. | :03:56. | :03:59. | |
This is not the future which the Government sees for the United | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
Kingdom outside of the European Union. In fact, we see a more | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
global, outward looking Britain. A Britain that is not confined by the | :04:08. | :04:13. | |
limits of the European Union. You also raised the issue of respect for | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
Scotland and the paper that got and has recently issued. He will be | :04:17. | :04:22. | |
aware that the Government, in order to address the issue of the impact | :04:23. | :04:26. | |
of Brexit upon the devolved administrations, established the | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
joint ministerial committee for exiting the European Union. This is | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
the forum in which these issues are raised and discussed and debated. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
There is one such this week. I do not believe that any suggestion that | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
there is a lack of respect for Scotland, or for any of the other | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
devolved administrations. I'm grateful to the minister, but would | :04:53. | :04:54. | |
it not enhance the discussions taking place if there were | :04:55. | :05:01. | |
discussions between ministers in his department and their counterparts in | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
Scotland in order to prepare some of the detail of these particular | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
matters? Discussions will certainly continue. But I have to say that I | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
do regard it as highly unfair for the honourable gentleman to suggest | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
that there is any lack of respect for Scotland. I believe the | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
Government could have done hardly any more to accommodate the concerns | :05:24. | :05:30. | |
of the devolved administrations. Mr Speaker, in closing, I'd like to say | :05:31. | :05:33. | |
what a useful, genuinely useful debate we have had today. As I end | :05:34. | :05:41. | |
my right honourable friend have made it clear, this is an issue that is | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
the utmost importance to the Government as we prepare to | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
negotiate our exit from the European Union. This was reinforced by my | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
right honourable friend the Prime Minister, who has said that | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
cooperation with the EU in the fight against crime and terrorism will be | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
one of government's principal priorities were negotiations begin. | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
We are determined that the United Kingdom will continue to be a | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
leading contributor in the fight against crime and the promotion of | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
security and justice. Not only in the United Kingdom and European | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
Union, but indeed throughout the world. The question is that this | :06:16. | :06:26. | |
house has considered exiting the EU and security law enforcement and | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
criminal justice. As many say aye, to the contrary, no. I beg to move | :06:33. | :06:39. | |
this house do now adjourn. The question is that this house do now | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
adjourn. Mr Nigel Evans. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It's a great delight for | :06:45. | :06:51. | |
me to have this opportunity one year Ron to reflect on what happened in | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
the Ribble Valley during those floods. But also to look at what | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
progress has been made as far as resilience and protection is | :07:04. | :07:09. | |
concerned, and prevention. And indeed to thank some people who were | :07:10. | :07:17. | |
beyond the call of duty who came to help those in distress. I remember | :07:18. | :07:29. | |
on Boxing Day 2015 hrs that my sister's house. -- I was at my | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
sister's house. I received a text message from a friend of mine who | :07:35. | :07:39. | |
has been elevated to the House of Lords, Robert Hayward, Lord Hayward. | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
He said what is happening in your constituency. I sent a message back | :07:44. | :07:49. | |
saying, what do you mean? He said, floods. There have been a flood in | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
the Ribble Valley just over a week earlier. I thought perhaps they were | :07:54. | :07:58. | |
showing historic footage of what has happened several days before. So I | :07:59. | :08:04. | |
didn't think too much of it, but went and switched the television on. | :08:05. | :08:12. | |
Sky News was coming live from one of my villages. The reporter was | :08:13. | :08:20. | |
several feet underwater, and I watched live footage of one of my | :08:21. | :08:23. | |
constituents being carried from a small cottage, an elderly lady, | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
manhandled out of her property in order to be taken to a safe place | :08:30. | :08:38. | |
where the floods hadn't happened further up the road. My eyes were | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
wide open and I was aghast to see the condition of the main Street | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
through the village. What I hadn't realised was that the flooding was | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
much more extensive than that. I called to my sister and I said, I'm | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
going. This was Boxing Day. I was due to be there about four days. She | :09:03. | :09:08. | |
said, what do you mean? I said, I'm going to be Ribble Valley. She asked | :09:09. | :09:12. | |
why. I taught to look at the television and she would understand. | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
What can you do? It's a great question. The fact is being there, | :09:17. | :09:21. | |
and that was the answer. I had to be there, there was no other place that | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
I could be on that day. So I got in the car, drove four and a bit hours | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
towards the Ribble Valley. As I came off the motorway, off the M6, I | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
normally would turn right immediately. But I couldn't do that | :09:37. | :09:43. | |
because the main road off the motorway junction was flooded. So I | :09:44. | :09:47. | |
had to go round. Then I used my local knowledge to work out another | :09:48. | :09:51. | |
route through which was quite extensive through Preston. Then what | :09:52. | :09:58. | |
I did was I dropped into Longridge, first of all, whether was an | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
emergency centre in one of the village halls, and spoke to four | :10:02. | :10:06. | |
people there. Nobody had reported there because it was several miles | :10:07. | :10:11. | |
away from the main village. I think it was just too far away. People | :10:12. | :10:14. | |
were making their own arrangements in many ways, some going to the | :10:15. | :10:24. | |
Clitheroe golf club a bit further out, and the local school further | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
Oppo said that they were available to take anybody. And of course | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
neighbours were coming to the assistance of those in distress. | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
When I drove into Ribchester, because that is an area that gets | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
flooded from time to time, I went to have a look at the river Ribble, not | :10:45. | :10:54. | |
far from Saint Wilfrid's Church, which is my local church. And it's | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
an extensive area. I have to say, my mouth dropped open. I have never, | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
ever seen that river is so high. If it had gone just another few inches, | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
it would have broken its banks into the Main Street in Ribchester. I've | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
never seen anything like it and I spoke to one of the residents there | :11:16. | :11:19. | |
who said he was waiting for it to go one step further before he started | :11:20. | :11:25. | |
moving his furniture and possessions from the bottom floor to the top | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
floor. I then went around to where the Ribchester Arms pub was. It's | :11:31. | :11:39. | |
Boxing Day. They were ready to take in all the bookings that they had | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
during that day. Of course, they couldn't open at school. They were | :11:45. | :11:51. | |
completely flooded. The landlord and landlady were on the top floor. The | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
firemen were already there pumping water away from one electrical | :11:55. | :12:00. | |
substation to make sure that that was still operational so that there | :12:01. | :12:03. | |
were still like on at the top of the pub. That pub was closed for several | :12:04. | :12:10. | |
weeks. -- so that there were still lights on. Never mind be colossal | :12:11. | :12:19. | |
cost of the waste of all of the food, the equipment that was | :12:20. | :12:24. | |
damaged, and indeed the loss of trade during that period of time. | :12:25. | :12:31. | |
Thank you for making a heartfelt, passionate beach. It reminds me of | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
exactly what happened in my constituency one year ago. -- | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
passionate speech. On the subject of businesses being affected, many of | :12:41. | :12:44. | |
the businesses in my constituency now the excesses of ?50,000 or more | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
and cannot get cost-effective insurance. Would he agree with me | :12:49. | :12:53. | |
enjoy my calls to persuade the flood scheme to small businesses to be | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
re-extended, because at the moment it is no solace to those businesses | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
that stand on the precipice. By than happy to do that. In fact, I spoke | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
with Mark Hogan who is in charge of the Flood Re Scheme. It is for us to | :13:08. | :13:17. | |
extend that out to businesses as well. I've got no doubt that will | :13:18. | :13:23. | |
that the premiums for a lot of small to medium-sized enterprises that are | :13:24. | :13:25. | |
prone to flooding or have made claims will go through the roof. And | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
if we think it's a good idea to spread the risk with domestic | :13:30. | :13:36. | |
premises, which we have done by the Flood Re Scheme, which is very good | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
indeed, then I can't see any good reason whatsoever not to extend that | :13:42. | :13:46. | |
to businesses as well. In fact, I will come on later to talk about one | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
of businesses which have been doubly hit in more ways than one. I'm | :13:50. | :14:00. | |
delighted to see you in your seat, Mr Deputy Speaker, because I know | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
you yourself experience in your constituency about flooding also. It | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
affected a number of areas and my honourable friend, the member for | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
South Ribble, is in her seat also. Looking at this river and talking to | :14:20. | :14:24. | |
some of the locals, I have today absolutely brilliant praise to the | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
emergency services for all the work that they did. If you think about | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
it, in the early hours of Christmas or the late hours of Christmas | :14:36. | :14:39. | |
night, early hours of Boxing Day, the army were knocking on doors. | :14:40. | :14:44. | |
They already knew what was going to happen and they were alerting people | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
to either get out or secure their promises. Get their possessions | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
upstairs if they could. But they weren't working during the time when | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
other people were celebrating with their families. -- they were | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
working. Absolute praise everything that they did and the early flood | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
warning system that clearly was working. I then went down into the | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
village itself, which was featured on the television most of Friday. -- | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
most of that day. A lot of the water had subsided by that time because it | :15:19. | :15:22. | |
was several hours on. But, my goodness me, the damage that had | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
been done during those hours was absolutely phenomenal. It wasn't | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
just the main road, it was several streets back. On both sides. | :15:32. | :15:37. | |
I went to chat to the landlord of the Dog Inn and he was able to tell | :15:38. | :15:49. | |
meal the things that had gone up on that day. Then I went towards | :15:50. | :15:56. | |
another village, on the other side of the constituency, and I had to | :15:57. | :16:01. | |
actually turn my car around there because I couldn't distinguish the | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
road from the river, it was so high. I thought, if I go any further I | :16:06. | :16:09. | |
will be adding to the problems because my car will be stuck and | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
it's 04 by four. I reversed back and then got back home. The next morning | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
I got up and then went back into Worley, and there the salvage | :16:18. | :16:26. | |
operation had begun. And my goodness me, to see the volunteers, the | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
people who are giving up their Christmases, to help their | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
neighbours, was heart-warming beyond belief. | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
There was one story of a group of four men who were travelling up to | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
Scotland for Hogmanay, going pretty early by the sounds of it, but | :16:43. | :16:44. | |
nonetheless, they heard what happened in Morley and drove off the | :16:45. | :16:52. | |
M6 and turned up in the village and picked on some house at random and | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
helps them clear their possessions from the House onto the streets, | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
into skips and then they got back in the car and continued their holiday. | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
What fantastic people, to do that. Other people had the good sense to | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
get money and drive into the Ribble Valley, actually handing money out | :17:17. | :17:18. | |
to families. When you think about it, there are some people who | :17:19. | :17:22. | |
wouldn't have any money. They'd lost all their food, they may live alone, | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
they may have spent all their money on Christmas and they just didn't | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
get access to money. So actually giving some money out to them gave | :17:32. | :17:35. | |
them a bit of a lifeline. They didn't need to do that, but they | :17:36. | :17:39. | |
did. Then people came from all over the area, to come and help, from | :17:40. | :17:45. | |
some charities in Blackburn who came to give assistance. It was a | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
colossal operation, to help people get all their possessions out of | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
their front living rooms and their kitchens, get the food out, and I | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
pay tribute to the skip operators who managed to get skips in on a | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
regular basis. The police, who managed to get a one-way system | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
through the village, as well. I've got to say, I learn something as | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
well. Talking about all the great things, but afraid now and then we | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
had flood tourists, who decided they wanted to come in just have a look. | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
They thought it was rather clever to drive through some of the water that | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
was there and then splashing the water into the businesses that had | :18:24. | :18:26. | |
already suffered greatly. I thought that was really thoughtless and | :18:27. | :18:30. | |
careless of some people to do that. I remember talking to one chap, | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
Andrew Ronan, who is done so much tremendous work as a volunteer, who | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
said, I didn't know what I expected to do the day after Boxing Day but | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
it wasn't a manhandle a piano into a skip, and that's what he was doing. | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
The volunteers, and I've got to say, absolutely superb, led by Gillian 's | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
barbershop, president of Worley Lyons, and with some of her friends, | :19:01. | :19:04. | |
Kelly Hughes, who runs the hairdresser shop. Her shop with hit | :19:05. | :19:11. | |
badly and still being repaired. She didn't cut for a few days because | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
she went straight across to the village hall, which they | :19:17. | :19:18. | |
requisitioned, where people turned up to give electrical goods, | :19:19. | :19:24. | |
blankets, food, hot coffee was served there, other food was served | :19:25. | :19:27. | |
there, it was quite amazing. Politicians had given up their time | :19:28. | :19:32. | |
to come in and test all the goods to make sure they weren't handing out | :19:33. | :19:39. | |
faulty electrical items. And other volunteers like Max and Katie... I'm | :19:40. | :19:44. | |
afraid I'm going to forget people on this one, but even the Dog Inn were | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
giving out coffee and damages to volunteers who were coming in to | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
help. There was another electrician who was going around, helping to go | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
to people's houses. And then of course the electricity board | :19:59. | :20:00. | |
themselves were coming in, to switch people off and making sure | :20:01. | :20:04. | |
everything was safe to get people switch back on. There was one | :20:05. | :20:08. | |
volunteer who came in and he'd had some training on mental health | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
issues, because we did have people where this flood actually turned | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
them over the edge. You can understand why an Boxing Day, when | :20:20. | :20:23. | |
they saw their houses destroyed, how this person was able to talk | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
somebody out of his bedroom, to try and get him downstairs, in order he | :20:29. | :20:31. | |
could get the assistance that he finally got. And that's one area | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
where I think we need to pay some attention to, as far as future flood | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
actions are concerned. And so... I've also got to pay | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
tribute to Marshall Scott, the chief executive of Ribble Valley Council. | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
He was there from boxing night onwards. They basically moved a lot | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
of the offices from Ribble Valley Council into Worley and they were | :21:02. | :21:06. | |
operating in that particular village hall. He was there every day, giving | :21:07. | :21:11. | |
assistance to people who badly needed it. Part of the problem was, | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
some of these businesses and homes were hit a week ago when the water | :21:17. | :21:22. | |
came rushing down. Andrew Ronan had already called some of the locals | :21:23. | :21:26. | |
together to say, what are we going to do about this? All we need is for | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
the river to break its banks and we could have real problems. Well, we | :21:31. | :21:38. | |
had real problems. What it did, it brought the | :21:39. | :21:43. | |
community together. Now I mentioned Gillian Darbyshire. One of the roads | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
that was badly damaged, one of the areas, was the houses in called | :21:51. | :21:59. | |
avail. It is a rough road, and if you look at it now, if you go and | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
visit that road, the Worley Lions raised ?100,000, got a match by | :22:06. | :22:11. | |
donations from the Freemasons and they have put a proper surface, it's | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
one of the best roads in the Ribble Valley now! It's absolutely superb. | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
I couldn't believe it when I went down there the other day and I | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
thought, wow, look at that, that's what can happen when the community | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
gets together and work together. I pay tribute to her for leading the | :22:29. | :22:34. | |
volunteers that are there. And there's one chap called Alan | :22:35. | :22:46. | |
Elliott, whose house was at the back of Calder Vale his had half his | :22:47. | :22:52. | |
garden washed away and his car was all right. I went to see Alan just | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
the other day. One would rather have hoped that the Environment Agency | :22:58. | :23:03. | |
would have looked at his damage and would have given a bit more | :23:04. | :23:06. | |
assistance than they did, to be honest. He's had to spend thousands | :23:07. | :23:11. | |
of pounds of his own money, to be able to shore up the garden, to make | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
sure that it is going to be resilient against any further rises | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
in the river flow... Yes, of course I will. | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
I thank my honourable friend for giving way and securing this debate, | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
because it is very important in our area collectively in Lancashire. | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
Would my right honourable friend agree with me Lancashire Council | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
didn't apply for any future funding for flood defences until at least | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
April, after the floods in December, meaning they missed out in the | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
budget in 2016? Wasn't that a little short of them? | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
I'm hoping a lot of lessons are now going to be learnt. That any funding | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
that is made available to be claimed, and remember the big | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
argument we had about claiming that European flood money, which of | :24:00. | :24:02. | |
course we all pay into, so it's only getting our own money back. It was | :24:03. | :24:06. | |
ages before we did that and I thought that was a huge mistake. We | :24:07. | :24:11. | |
should have done it from the very beginning. And I was told how | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
complicated it was to claim the money, that has to be sorted out, it | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
shouldn't be complicated when one is paying into an insurance, when | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
there's so much time that has to go in, so many pages have to be filled | :24:24. | :24:27. | |
in to claim our own money back. I think there are a lot of lessons | :24:28. | :24:31. | |
that need to be learned by Lancashire County Council and by the | :24:32. | :24:33. | |
Government generally, as to what needs to be done in order that the | :24:34. | :24:42. | |
tragedy that is awarded there is an added to by their own action or | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
inaction. I also want to praise the rescues | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
collection people as well. One wouldn't expect to see them the next | :24:53. | :24:59. | |
day after Boxing Day. -- refuse collection. There's very few | :25:00. | :25:04. | |
pictures in my mind more sad than seeing the refuse people backing up | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
into a street and Christmas trees the day after Boxing Day being | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
loaded on because they were clearing the whole of the houses. It was a | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
very sad picture to see that, never mind the fact that people who were | :25:18. | :25:21. | |
already under stress, there was one lady whose husband was dying, had | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
all the problems added onto the fact that then she was having to clear | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
out her house as well. There are still some people not back in their | :25:31. | :25:37. | |
homes a year on. And so big questions have to be asked about the | :25:38. | :25:42. | |
resilience of some of the properties. I know my honourable | :25:43. | :25:46. | |
friend is going to answer this debate, has done her own report into | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
this and I hope a lot can be learned from that. | :25:51. | :25:53. | |
I also praise the councillors stereo, Joyce Holgate, Jed Merson | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
and others. Councillors came from all over the area, even if their | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
areas weren't flooded. They came in and gave assistance as well. | :26:04. | :26:12. | |
And also for James Bevan and the deaf for a minister, who turned up | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
the day after Boxing Day. I couldn't leave it, there they were in | :26:18. | :26:21. | |
Wellington boots, walking through the village. I was able to show them | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
some of the damage that was there. So James looked into the river | :26:26. | :26:35. | |
Calder... One farmhouse was totally underwater. And also those insurance | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
companies that were prompt and others, who weren't. Where the | :26:43. | :26:47. | |
answer phones were on saying, please phone us, we are on holiday, please | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
get in touch on the 28th 29th of December, whenever it was, when | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
there is the flooding that took place on such a colossal scale that | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
affected so many thousands of people, one would have thought that | :27:02. | :27:04. | |
all the insurance companies would have been fair to have helped. | :27:05. | :27:12. | |
-- been fair. I mentioned Andrew Ronan. He has managed to create a | :27:13. | :27:16. | |
group called the Worley and Billington flood action group. He's | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
managed to draw expertise that one would find in any sort of large | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
village and surrounding areas of people who are civil engineers, | :27:28. | :27:31. | |
people who have knowledge of flood prevention, and they have regular | :27:32. | :27:41. | |
meetings, in order to liaise with the flood authority, Lancashire | :27:42. | :27:45. | |
County Council, Ribble Valley county council, and the Environment Agency | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
as well. Looking at the long-term plan, because we've got to do that | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
and we have to make sure that these once-in-a-lifetime events, which are | :27:54. | :27:56. | |
happening now quite regularly, certainly in my lifetime, that | :27:57. | :28:01. | |
anything that is preventable, that leads to the misery that I saw that | :28:02. | :28:05. | |
day, needs to be taken. There are some that relate to the river and | :28:06. | :28:13. | |
there are others that relate to the housing as well, that's being built, | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
particularly in Worley, on rather a large scale. | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
I think it might just be useful if I talk about that now, because there | :28:26. | :28:32. | |
one that section called Lawson rise which is being developed, in part, | :28:33. | :28:39. | |
by Redrow. As part of that scheme that there should be drainage and | :28:40. | :28:53. | |
ponds as part of that, so water retention in their place. They've | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
been building houses but as far as those ponds are concerned, that has | :28:59. | :29:00. | |
a map. They themselves said it needed to happen, and it hasn't | :29:01. | :29:06. | |
happened. I understand there may be problems, as far as the design and | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
where those ponds go but the reality is they are now in breach of the | :29:11. | :29:16. | |
conditions that the Local Authority have set, but they still think it's | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
OK to build the houses get people moving in. Well, it's not. They have | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
a responsibility to the people who are going to live on that estate, | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
but also to the people who may be affected by the building of those | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
houses. Not just those houses, but other houses that would be built on | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
the same plot. It is their responsibility to ensure that all | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
that area is going to be properly drained and the water that will run | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
off is going to be retained. How dare they not take the action that | :29:47. | :29:53. | |
they should, at this moment in time, and that they think it's OK to carry | :29:54. | :30:00. | |
on building those houses. Without putting in that proper attenuation. | :30:01. | :30:10. | |
My honourable friend is making an incredibly important speech and he | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
has mentioned the question of a building company. And I want to know | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
that all over the country, many on both sides of the House have the | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
same experience with building companies who bang on until the cows | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
come home about their corporate social responsibility, and being | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
good neighbours, and all that, but with many of them, although not all | :30:36. | :30:41. | |
of them, it is complete and utter toss. They need to honour their | :30:42. | :30:45. | |
obligations and we seem to do so. I can only agree. Indeed, in one of | :30:46. | :30:51. | |
the reports they talk about them being a shining light member of the | :30:52. | :31:02. | |
considerate construction scheme. Also, Steve Morgan, the chairman, | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
talks about Redgrave as being in great shape and looking forward to | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
another year of significant progress. I've got an idea - that | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
significant progress can be going into the things that need to be | :31:16. | :31:19. | |
happening. There's another plot of land which one can see from the road | :31:20. | :31:25. | |
which rather famously had a sign saying that it's a development site | :31:26. | :31:31. | |
with permission for 39 dwellings. You can just see it above the water. | :31:32. | :31:35. | |
This is absolutely famous and this did the rounds of social networking | :31:36. | :31:43. | |
- for a single house. You should put any houses on an area susceptible to | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
that sort of flooding. But what sort of attenuation would that need to | :31:48. | :31:52. | |
make sure that the water didn't flood the houses going on there, and | :31:53. | :31:56. | |
wasn't then push to flood the houses? And though I would now say | :31:57. | :32:04. | |
to read Row on that particular site that notice has been served to say | :32:05. | :32:11. | |
that they are in breach of the conditions that they were agreed to. | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
When are they going to do it? When are they going to provide the | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
attenuation that they said they would? Everybody is waiting. They | :32:20. | :32:26. | |
have a social responsibility, in moral responsibility to do it. I | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
know, as my right honourable friend would know, that these companies | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
have got some great experts working for them and they know some tricks | :32:36. | :32:39. | |
will stop they would know that there are certain things they can do to | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
delay taking the action that they need. They've got very expensive | :32:43. | :32:46. | |
lawyers who no doubt listening to every word I'm saying. But get on | :32:47. | :32:52. | |
with it. Absolutely get on with it. We don't want to see any delay. We | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
don't want to see any deferment. They know what they want to do and | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
they need to do it now. It's not just an - it's every other developer | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
who are building houses, who have conditions put upon them. They | :33:08. | :33:12. | |
shouldn't see it as burdensome. They should see it as playing their part | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
in a Kenya to say that they're not making other people'slives a misery. | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
It may be a mile down the road, it may be two miles. The honourable | :33:22. | :33:32. | |
member is making a powerful and moving each and he's touched by a | :33:33. | :33:35. | |
number of good points. I would like to remind the House of Witney in | :33:36. | :33:41. | |
2007 when there was serious flooding which affected a great deal of the | :33:42. | :33:44. | |
town. I spoke in the House yesterday about blood attenuation schemes that | :33:45. | :33:49. | |
the minister came to visit. -- about blood attenuation schemes. I ask the | :33:50. | :33:54. | |
member whether he would agree to me that when it comes to making | :33:55. | :33:57. | |
people'slives a misery, that is absolutely right. This is not just a | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
matter of damage to property which, in due course, when the company 's | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
pale, can be rectified. When I spoke to my constituencies affected by | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
flooding, the fear and worry of that happening again lives on ten years | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
or more after the event. Misery is just the right word. I thank you for | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
the contribution. I think it's a key to mental torture. -- I think it's | :34:20. | :34:28. | |
akin. Once you've gone through that misery, all of a sudden people have | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
got one eye on the computer to see if there's a flood warning coming | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
up. And they've had a few of since December 26 2015 and indeed they've | :34:38. | :34:39. | |
had water coming through King street. The fact is that one has to | :34:40. | :34:48. | |
recognise the impact that it has on people'slives once the properties | :34:49. | :34:51. | |
have been swollen that way. This happened was, it can happen again, | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
unless something has been done about it. -- once their properties have | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
been soiled in that way. Once these things have happened, and it did | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
happen on a high skill, as you know, don't we just had to wait and see | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
what action needs to be taken. -- on a high scale. I know the Environment | :35:10. | :35:15. | |
Agency is talking about ending ?2.3 billion over the next six years in | :35:16. | :35:19. | |
doing a lot of the major works but need to be done. Whether that's | :35:20. | :35:24. | |
going to be sufficient money, who knows. When one starts talking about | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
2.3 billion, were talking about spending 3.5 billion on display. So | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
I suppose that puts it in context, doesn't it? -- spending 3.5 billion | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
on this place. We are looking at ensuring that the right sort of | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
money is put in place to help alleviate the problem. We have | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
companies like Network Rail who are doing a great deal of work in Morley | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
on the aqueduct there and ensuring that the water that was flowing in | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
an area that got badly flooded, their spending a lot of money and I | :35:59. | :36:05. | |
sure -- I saw it for myself and I pay to be to them. And some | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
companies like Axa Insurers are spending money on resilience because | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
they've worked out that it in their interest to spend money on | :36:16. | :36:17. | |
resilience measures that mean that when people sadly do get flooded, | :36:18. | :36:23. | |
the cost to them will be a lot less. And there's a lot of sensible | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
measures that people can take if they have got the means to do it. I | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
remember going into one house in Ribchester and the lady had been | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
flooded a bit before. I walked on her sodden carpet and she said the | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
last time that this happened, she asked the insurance company if they | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
could have lighting instead of carpets. And they said, oh, no, | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
like-for-like, madam. And they wouldn't move. They moved this time. | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
They've now got the message and of course the flagging means that if it | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
happens in the future, at least something more easily can be done | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
about it. I thought I would just quickly go through, because I know | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
whether people would like to contribute, things that I believe | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
ought to be done as far as looking forward to resilience in the future. | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
As far as Morley is concerned, I know the Environment Agency are | :37:28. | :37:31. | |
looking at proposals. They're looking at the action that can be | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
taken, I'm told that the study will take about six months and then they | :37:38. | :37:41. | |
will be putting a bid into government may be towards the autumn | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
of 2017. I do hope that the Environment Agency can bring that | :37:47. | :37:48. | |
forward as quickly as possible because of the mental torture that | :37:49. | :37:52. | |
my honourable friend was talking about. Most people can't see | :37:53. | :37:56. | |
anything substantial being done, they think it could happen again. | :37:57. | :38:01. | |
And of course it can. I hope the Environment Agency will look at that | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
area and a number of others to see what can be done, and working very | :38:05. | :38:08. | |
closely with the local Flood action group, Andrew Bingham and his | :38:09. | :38:16. | |
friends, the flood authority -- and lead Flood authorities and the local | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
authorities as well. Not associated with the river Calder, but the | :38:21. | :38:23. | |
surface water coming through, heavy rain, blocked culvert where Morley | :38:24. | :38:29. | |
had a week earlier than 2015 been damaged. We've had water running | :38:30. | :38:36. | |
through sense. It shouldn't be beyond the wit of the local | :38:37. | :38:39. | |
authority to look at those culverts and to make absolutely certain that | :38:40. | :38:44. | |
they're not blocked. There's enough sensors now that can be made | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
available in order for them to be able to do that. And I would say to | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
Lancashire County Council, pull your finger out, have a look at these | :38:53. | :38:56. | |
areas that are prone to flooding, and get it alters. And the drains as | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
well. Kelly, who was the lady from the hairdressers, was cleaning the | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
drains it well. This was after December the 26th when they were | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
expecting more floods and she saw some of the drains were blocked. So | :39:11. | :39:14. | |
there are simple things that can be done and I hope that they will be | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
doing it. As far as planning is concerned as well, local authorities | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
ought to be able, if it's a flood plain, to say no housing should be | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
put on there. And that should be sufficient. So when they go to | :39:31. | :39:33. | |
appeal, as they do, and use their expensive lawyers to dance rings | :39:34. | :39:37. | |
around some local authorities who are rather structured -- rather | :39:38. | :39:45. | |
strapped for cash, they should be able to say, no, this is a flood | :39:46. | :39:48. | |
plain. Even with attenuation is still means that huge amounts of | :39:49. | :39:52. | |
water that may be retained by those fields, like the one I've just shown | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
the House, it's got to be made available for the future. And | :39:57. | :40:02. | |
builders have got to take the responsibility that when conditions | :40:03. | :40:05. | |
are put on them, they've got to comply. They have got to comply. I'd | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
like to pay tribute to the Woodland Trust, who are planting trees all | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
over the place. I don't think we pay enough regard for the usefulness of | :40:14. | :40:19. | |
trees - particularly in ensuring the prevention of soil erosion which can | :40:20. | :40:22. | |
easily happen. They've already planted thousands of trees in our | :40:23. | :40:26. | |
area and this is something that we need to do more of. Insurance | :40:27. | :40:31. | |
resilience measures have got to come in as well. The early payment of | :40:32. | :40:38. | |
money and insurance is important to people so that they can get on with | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
the job. We've got to pay regard for this end of getting three quotes, | :40:42. | :40:46. | |
and all that sort of thing, which some insurance companies say. | :40:47. | :40:51. | |
They're lucky to get one quote! When an area have been blighted by | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
flooding on Boxing Day, you can imagine how difficult it was to even | :40:56. | :41:00. | |
get one quote. Certainly, some are just not interested. So there has to | :41:01. | :41:03. | |
be different measures put in place for reasonable costs that people are | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
just able to get on with the job and do it. One person came to see me | :41:09. | :41:12. | |
last week. So we're talking one year one. They put a claimant, part | :41:13. | :41:20. | |
business. ?110,000 claim. They used a broker. The broker then insured | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
with one company. The company then part insured with another company. | :41:25. | :41:32. | |
That company went bust. They paid out ?35,000 per claim. They were | :41:33. | :41:35. | |
going to get another 20,000 before that company went bust. He doesn't | :41:36. | :41:40. | |
know when he's going to get paid. Even under the financial | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
compensation balls but keep in place when you get 90%. -- financial | :41:45. | :41:52. | |
compensation balls. I think it has to be fair that when one goes to the | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
insurance company, the responsibility lies there. This | :41:59. | :42:01. | |
person is now running around the House witless that he will not get | :42:02. | :42:12. | |
the money that he needs. The person paying the premium, which in this | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
case is just under ?5,000 a year, shouldn't have to suffer because of | :42:17. | :42:26. | |
that. The emergency services have learned a lot by that day. By the | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
fact that they had to come in and institute is one. That needs to be | :42:32. | :42:36. | |
best practice that is spread around the country. Because what's happened | :42:37. | :42:39. | |
in the Ribble Valley will happen in other areas, sadly, in the future. | :42:40. | :42:43. | |
Best practice I think is something that can be done. The local Flood | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
action group have done their own resilience programme telling people | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
of the simple things, including phone numbers that they can use, | :42:52. | :42:57. | |
when flooding does happen. These sorts of things are absolutely | :42:58. | :43:00. | |
superb. And I do hope that local authorities can learn from one | :43:01. | :43:03. | |
another as to the action that they need to take, including the advice | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
that they can give to people now. We are in the winter now. Sadly, some | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
villages may well get flooded between now and the time when summer | :43:14. | :43:21. | |
kicks off. Thank you. Thank you to my friend for allowing me to | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
intervene. We have floods in my area, as I fix it. The hospital, | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
locally, ran an emergency generators. But apparently, from | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
what I could gather, for a state of emergency to be declared, the army | :43:36. | :43:40. | |
came in to help in the end, the Environment Agency had to have, I | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
believe, two separate sources to verify there was a state of | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
emergency. Do you think that it should be once a source that context | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
the Environment Agency to enact with their doesn't get any worse for the | :43:54. | :43:57. | |
army to be called in to rescue patients that need electricity for | :43:58. | :43:59. | |
dialysis and other life-saving treatments? Of course. Common-sense | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
kicking in building it. Once common-sense kicks in, people know | :44:06. | :44:12. | |
when there's an emergency on and why act to it with unnecessary | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
bureaucracy and rules? I do hope lessons can be learned from that. I | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
think proper planning on flood areas is essential. For instance, and I | :44:23. | :44:30. | |
were a lot of sandbags in local authority depot under lock and key. | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
People couldn't get access to it until, eventually, calls went | :44:38. | :44:39. | |
through to the county council and said, openly depot! Eventually be | :44:40. | :44:46. | |
sandbags were released. -- open the depot. It shouldn't be beyond the | :44:47. | :44:50. | |
wit of planning to ensure that sandbags back, irrespective of | :44:51. | :44:53. | |
whether they may be used for somewhere else at another time. | :44:54. | :44:57. | |
They're released immediately to the local community in order that | :44:58. | :44:59. | |
they're able to prevent any further damage that done. In is one of these | :45:00. | :45:06. | |
known not what's where I was having to go into Benedict pars | :45:07. | :45:13. | |
delicatessen to latch onto their Wi-Fi. -- is known as one of these | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
not spots. Using the pub thrown in the Dog Inn because my friends | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
simply wouldn't work. In areas of high susceptibility to flooding, a | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
lot more attention needs to be put into the telecommunications there | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
that cost a bit more money. But it needs to be done in order that | :45:37. | :45:39. | |
people in an emergency, because they've had it before I may have it | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
again, that people are able to use their mobile telephone. Particularly | :45:44. | :45:46. | |
if the flooding has wiped out some of the landlines. | :45:47. | :45:52. | |
I said earlier on about the drainage on the main road that prevented me | :45:53. | :46:01. | |
from getting to the area that I needed. Again, if an area floods | :46:02. | :46:06. | |
from time to time, these certain roads, the Environment Agency, the | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
Local Authorities, the flood authority, needs to look at extra | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
drainage that needs to be put in, so people can get where they need to | :46:15. | :46:19. | |
get to. Mr Deputy Speaker, I will never | :46:20. | :46:25. | |
forget the 26th of December 2015 for as long as I can live. It taught me | :46:26. | :46:31. | |
a lot of things, and most of them were good, thank goodness. On New | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
Year's Eve that night I expected to be in sunnier climes, but I wasn't. | :46:38. | :46:46. | |
And I stood in the square of Whalley with all the local residents as new | :46:47. | :46:53. | |
year rang in. And we all held hands and sang auld lang syne together. | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
The community spirit was alive and well and still is in that particular | :46:59. | :47:06. | |
community. As far as I'm concerned, you know when gongs are handed out, | :47:07. | :47:10. | |
when we look at worthy people to get them, I could give a list. Sadly, | :47:11. | :47:16. | |
from what I remember, none of them have, and that's sad. I think | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
recognition ought to be given in communities up and down the country, | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
where people go that extra mile, when they don't need to but they do, | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
when they help people in their own community because it is the right | :47:29. | :47:30. | |
thing to do. I do hope 12 months on, and the | :47:31. | :47:37. | |
minister listening very carefully to what I've had to say, that she will | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
be able to give us some good news today about the action that the | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
Environment Agency and all the other agencies working together can do to | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
ensure that the misery and torture that so many people have suffered in | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
the past because of flooding, will be a thing of the past. | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It's a great pleasure to speak in this | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
debate this evening and I do so for two main reasons. The first of which | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
is to pay tribute to my honourable friend. He was my first ever MP, and | :48:14. | :48:22. | |
I remember his election back in the early 90s. I was there in the Ribble | :48:23. | :48:29. | |
Valley on Boxing Day 2015, at my parents house, which is about four | :48:30. | :48:37. | |
miles away from Whalley. I've seen Ribchester flood in the past. We got | :48:38. | :48:41. | |
up Boxing Day, we were supposed to be going out and I looked across the | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
hill and I said, what's that? Because the new river had grown up. | :48:46. | :48:52. | |
I grew up in Lancashire and know what wet weather is but I've never | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
seen anything like it. My Marin friend said, what could I do? What | :48:56. | :49:02. | |
he did was remarkable and my friends and family in the Ribble Valley, and | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
my auntie Pauline, who was with you in the square, people were really | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
touched. He's been a fantastic constituency MP, a fantastic | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
parliamentarian for more years than we know, because he looks very | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
useful... He's done great things and I thank him for bringing this | :49:23. | :49:28. | |
debate. -- he looks very youthful. The river Ribble, the historic | :49:29. | :49:32. | |
border between north and south flows from Yorkshire, and into God 's own | :49:33. | :49:41. | |
County, Lancashire. The flood plain is in my constituency of South | :49:42. | :49:46. | |
Ribble. We share this great river and I, like you, Mr Deputy Speaker, | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
we all had bad flooding on Boxing Day 2015, when storm Eva struck. I | :49:53. | :50:04. | |
think it was more Storm Desmond... But Yorkshire and other parts of the | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
country were affected. I would like to pay tribute, really, | :50:12. | :50:17. | |
to the local groups, because we had flooding in Leyland, where there was | :50:18. | :50:25. | |
work by my constituent Celia and the Leyland flood action group. In | :50:26. | :50:32. | |
Ecclestone, and Gillian Jamieson and other members of the parish council | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
have done sterling work to rebuild the parish hall, which they did back | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
in November. Particularly in Croston, and it was the views of the | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
Chinook flying over Croston, because Croston has three rivers, but there | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
was a bridge at the River Douglas, and the Charnock came to assess. I | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
believe it was actually thrown by one of your constituents, a member | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
of the Tory Air Cadets, of which you are president. | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
Correct. He's not in the RAF, by the way. | :51:08. | :51:14. | |
There are also flooding issues in West Lancashire in my constituency, | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
and I know the minister is very aware of what's happening about the | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
flooding pumps, the villages of Rufford, Banks, which are affected | :51:23. | :51:33. | |
by this. But in relation to the River Ribble, trying to stay on | :51:34. | :51:38. | |
topic, there is concern in South Ribble about the progress of the | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
Preston and South Ribble flood scheme. The Ribble as it leaves | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
urban areas, the last bridge across the Ribble is in my constituency. We | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
are hoping to have another bridge across the Ribble, but at the moment | :51:55. | :52:05. | |
it is in Pemberton. When it leaves the area there is pressed on one | :52:06. | :52:08. | |
side and Pemberton the other. There were flood defences built up in the | :52:09. | :52:17. | |
early 1980s, but they would be, they are not ideal if there were a high | :52:18. | :52:25. | |
tide and rain like we saw on Boxing Day in 2015. I've walked the area | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
many times and walked it in the summer with representatives from the | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
Environment Agency. I know there is funding there, but we are hoping to | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
have it matched by the Department and I would be very grateful if my | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
honourable friend were able to say anything on the progress with that. | :52:43. | :52:48. | |
I want to pay tribute to the Croston flood action group, to the parish | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
council in particular, who manned their own pump. To Cathal McShane | :52:53. | :52:57. | |
and and Pete, who came down to number ten when there was a | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
reception for flood he rose in the spring of last year. I'd like to | :53:01. | :53:07. | |
mention particularly businesses in Croston, were very Brazilian. In | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
fact, I went to Croston on Boxing Day this year. -- who were very | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
resilient. I wanted to go round and see how people were. The publican, | :53:16. | :53:24. | |
John Lilly, from the Wheatsheaf was in. He said things were very | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
difficult but the village really came together, and I think that they | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
have weathered it very well, but I met another constituent who has been | :53:34. | :53:39. | |
badly affected, in terms of not only damage to his property, but to the | :53:40. | :53:42. | |
mental health of his family, as well. This really is, as honourable | :53:43. | :53:54. | |
members know, it doesn't just affect your possessions, but the sense of | :53:55. | :53:58. | |
watching out for every flood warning and thinking, is it going to happen | :53:59. | :54:04. | |
again? I will wind up by saying, we can | :54:05. | :54:13. | |
only do... Flooding is a very complicated issue because rivers are | :54:14. | :54:17. | |
and waterways are very complicated things. There needs to be creativity | :54:18. | :54:23. | |
in how we deal with water upstream. I know what happens in Whalley | :54:24. | :54:30. | |
effects other places. I pay tribute to my honourable friend for the | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
great work he has done on this, for the wonderful champion he is from | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
Ribble Valley and I look forward to the Minister's response. | :54:38. | :54:44. | |
Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to talk in this debate. I | :54:45. | :54:49. | |
want to congratulate my honourable friend for securing this debate on | :54:50. | :54:52. | |
flooding in the Ribble Valley. He has spoken passionately. I think he | :54:53. | :54:58. | |
painted a vivid picture of Boxing Day in 2015 and paid tribute to many | :54:59. | :55:05. | |
of the neighbours in the community. Gillian Derbyshire from the local | :55:06. | :55:11. | |
lions and other business people and local councillors. And indeed | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
strangers. I'm aware of the impact flooding can have on the community. | :55:17. | :55:22. | |
I've supported my own constituents in Suffolk over recent years than | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
just over the weekend we had our own severe flood warnings, where I was | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
able to visit local communities, who have also formed the flood action | :55:31. | :55:34. | |
groups, to which have been referred. I think it is important to pay | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
tribute to those people who have taken charge of actions in their | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
local community, in order to help their friends. This isn't in my | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
speech, and a slight bit of personal disclosure, but I will always | :55:48. | :55:49. | |
particularly welcome the contributions strangers have. In | :55:50. | :55:54. | |
1998I was heading home to Liverpool rather than Lancashire, although | :55:55. | :56:00. | |
historically was in Lancashire, of course. But nevertheless, the point | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
is, I encountered my own flooding trouble, had to climb out of my car | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
which was filling with water, in the middle of nowhere. I knocked on a | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
house and I will always be grateful to the McDermott's who took me in | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
for two days. And then I was able to make my way home, having done that. | :56:18. | :56:22. | |
I'm very conscious of how this can be very frightening for people, and | :56:23. | :56:28. | |
the warm, loving presence of friends and strangers is something that | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
never goes out of one's mind. It is right to point out that the | :56:32. | :56:36. | |
Government continues to play a key role in improving protection to | :56:37. | :56:41. | |
those that flood risk. We are spending ?2.5 billion on flood | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
defence schemes to better protect 300,000 homes by 2021. We have also | :56:45. | :56:48. | |
been increasing maintenance spending in real terms over this Parliament. | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
As the honourable member said, there is a history of flooding in the | :56:54. | :57:00. | |
Ribble Valley, and I note the communities previously affected in | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
his constituency, he spoke extensively about Whalley and | :57:05. | :57:10. | |
Ribchester, among others. It is fair to say that the month of December | :57:11. | :57:16. | |
2015 was the wettest on record, and the highest flows on record were | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
also observed in the River Ribble and River Calder. Temporary flood | :57:21. | :57:28. | |
defences were deployed on in the Ribble Valley constituency he will | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
be aware 432 properties were flooded, with around 2600 right | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
across Lancashire. I am aware that the communities he describes of | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
Whalley and Ribchester were among the worst affected and Billington | :57:45. | :57:47. | |
also flooded from the River Calder for the first time. Thankfully he | :57:48. | :57:52. | |
will be aware other places did not flood on local communities expressed | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
their gratitude for the flood defence work undertaken by the | :57:59. | :58:00. | |
Environment Agency to stop them experiencing flooding at that time. | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
Since that flooding incident the Environment Agency has given advice | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
to 100 residents in the Ribble Valley. As part of the works to | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
repair structures at the bridge, they have removed gravel from the | :58:16. | :58:22. | |
river channel. Writer 2010 the Environment Agency completed flood | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
defence schemes, spending a total of ?1.5 million in those areas. Since | :58:29. | :58:35. | |
2010 the Environment Agency invested more than ?200,000, making | :58:36. | :58:38. | |
properties in Whalley and Ribchester more resilient. Including working | :58:39. | :58:42. | |
closely with the local council, to offer grants to homeowners, | :58:43. | :58:49. | |
including flood doors and ebb recovers. These properties that were | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
flooded were eligible for the 5000 have recovery grants and some of the | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
homes that flooded had not been previously eligible as they had not | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
been recently eligible for flooding. I am grateful for the contribution | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
she is making. Could she also asked the Environment Agency to look again | :59:08. | :59:15. | |
at the Arches by Alan Elliot's house, where there is a lot of silt | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
being built up. The Environment Agency are aware of this. That silt | :59:21. | :59:23. | |
should have been removed so the free flow of the water can more easily | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
pass through. It hasn't been done and I don't know why it's not been | :59:29. | :59:32. | |
done, but it's giving grave concern to people around that area. If it's | :59:33. | :59:36. | |
not done, if the river rises, there could be severe problems. | :59:37. | :59:40. | |
My honourable friend will be aware that I don't know the details of | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
that but he will be pleased to know the Environment Agency manager is in | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
the box today and will have taken careful note of that. A future | :59:49. | :59:53. | |
scheme to protect Whalley from the flooding from the river is in the | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
development stage. It would cost approximately ?1.4 million and | :59:57. | :00:01. | |
considerable work is going on with the Whalley and Billington flood | :00:02. | :00:04. | |
action group and the local community to optimise the design of the scheme | :00:05. | :00:07. | |
and to develop partnership options prior to the bid for funding. I | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
think this is a project he referred to. Currently a review is ongoing | :00:12. | :00:15. | |
flood risks across the River Calder which will provide additional | :00:16. | :00:20. | |
information to measures to look at that. We hope to do a flood risk | :00:21. | :00:28. | |
report in Ribchester this year. It will cost ?4.8 million and work is | :00:29. | :00:31. | |
taking place to develop partnership funding options prior to submitting | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
a bid for funding. Lancashire County Council is also developing a ?2 | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
million scheme to address surface water flooding in Whalley and | :00:43. | :00:43. | |
Billington. We change the funding policy to give | :00:44. | :01:04. | |
every scheme that has a positive benefit cost ratio a channel to | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
secure some grant funding, rather than the old system of all or | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
nothing. My honourable friend has referred to planning, and he should | :01:15. | :01:23. | |
be aware that the national MPPF is very specific in regards to planning | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
in flood areas. And he should be aware, also, that the Environment | :01:28. | :01:34. | |
Agency's advice has been accepted in over 98% of all applications. And I | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
have looked carefully at the bonds that were rejected by local | :01:38. | :01:42. | |
councils, and that information is publicly available. He specifically | :01:43. | :01:47. | |
referred to Redrow Developments, a housing development that he is | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
concerned that housing development in the area is designed to reduce | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
flood risk. As he has indicated, I would expect the issue to be dealt | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
with robust day. The Environment Agency doesn't have the powers, but | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
if there was more that my honourable friend 's can do, then we will do | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
that. I will just say on The Record it is the second time today that | :02:16. | :02:23. | |
Redrow has been raised with me as a developer not particularly | :02:24. | :02:26. | |
fulfilling their conditions. Or in this case, fulfilling a condition | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
that simply doesn't work. So I will certainly be following up with my | :02:31. | :02:32. | |
honourable friends in planning on that matter. In terms of drainage, | :02:33. | :02:43. | |
the Environment Agency lead on flood risk is associated with culverts. | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
When they are present, they will be inspected. Authorities in Lancashire | :02:50. | :02:58. | |
lead the flood risk associated. Within the village of Walley, the | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
county council has been investigating the issue of the | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
culverts which carries water underneath King Street which you | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
refer to. It has surcharged in the past and lead to flooding most | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
recently on the 21st of November. For any work deemed necessary to the | :03:18. | :03:22. | |
culverts and infrastructure, bids for Defra structure will be | :03:23. | :03:24. | |
submitted via the Environment Agency. My honourable friend also | :03:25. | :03:31. | |
spoke eloquently on behalf of her constituents and I thought it might | :03:32. | :03:34. | |
be worth sharing where we are in the Preston and South Ribble flood | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
alleviation scheme, to which she referred. At the moment, the cost | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
for this is about ?32 million and it would better protect many homes. It | :03:41. | :03:49. | |
would also decrease flood risk at Bolton in the Vale. And further work | :03:50. | :03:51. | |
is currently ongoing to assess whether the scheme could be extended | :03:52. | :03:58. | |
to benefit high water. As it stands, the scheme benefits from 74 million | :03:59. | :04:04. | |
pounds in government aim and requires more. There are many local | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
businesses in the catchment area that will benefit the scheme. I | :04:11. | :04:13. | |
think if there's a way that the honourable members may be in a | :04:14. | :04:17. | |
position to assist with attaining further partnership funding, it | :04:18. | :04:20. | |
would go a long way to securing the viability of the scheme. In this, I | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
would say that I understand that there has been heavy involvement to | :04:29. | :04:34. | |
secure programmes for funding and Burley and Lancashire. I would work | :04:35. | :04:37. | |
my honourable friend Stu work together to consider potential | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
forward movement. It's worth working out what we're doing on a broader | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
level to be better prepared this winter for whatever arises. No | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
government can promise that whatever -- we will never be flooded again. | :04:50. | :04:53. | |
But we can learn and acting that is what would it would be national | :04:54. | :04:58. | |
flood resilience review. If you are undertaking to discover the country | :04:59. | :05:00. | |
can be better protected from flooding and extreme weather | :05:01. | :05:02. | |
results. -- weather events. Considerable progress has been made. | :05:03. | :05:08. | |
We invested in Mobile flood defences which now means the Environment | :05:09. | :05:12. | |
Agency has 25 miles of new temporary defensive located across seven key | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
areas. Compared to just five miles available last year. There are half | :05:17. | :05:22. | |
a million sandbags and as the Prime Minister announced a 1200 troops on | :05:23. | :05:25. | |
stand-by if councils needed their house. -- needed the help. In all | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
three cases they were deployed at the weekend. The Environment Agency | :05:30. | :05:36. | |
has taken a robust assessment of the practical implications to places | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
that may need temporary barriers, including ensuring that they do not | :05:41. | :05:42. | |
make flooding worse elsewhere. There are plans in place to use temporary | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
barristers at Rochester and Billington, but unfortunately these | :05:48. | :05:50. | |
are not fulfilled Walley despite being used in 2015. Infrastructure | :05:51. | :05:57. | |
provided has been reviewing the resilience of key assets for | :05:58. | :06:02. | |
communities of 25,000 people and above. They've been identifying | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
where they can also protect these assets with temporary defences this | :06:06. | :06:09. | |
winter, where long-term solutions are implemented. I been leading the | :06:10. | :06:12. | |
debris of weekly ministerial phone calls to ensure that we are in a | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
good place and in particular my honourable friend referred to mobile | :06:18. | :06:20. | |
phones. That's been a key part of ensuring that we are more resilient. | :06:21. | :06:24. | |
This means the country have been better protected this winter. Of | :06:25. | :06:29. | |
course, it's not over yet. Services to our communities will be more | :06:30. | :06:31. | |
resilient to flood events. The next age of the review will focus on | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
surface water flooding which are significant, particularly in cities | :06:37. | :06:38. | |
and urban areas. It will involve much collaboration between | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
authorities and stakeholders with a keen interest in managing this risk. | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
We've also worked in the private sector to develop a new property | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
flood resilient action plan and I would like to thank Peter Bonfield | :06:51. | :06:54. | |
for leading that work. It demonstrates some straightforward | :06:55. | :06:56. | |
measures that homeowners and business owners can take to | :06:57. | :06:59. | |
resilient their property to flooding, as well as enable them to | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
get back in four more quickly if unfortunately there flooded. These | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
could be simple measures like in-built covers to more substantial | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
works like installing pumps, having solid floors or rewiring is a plug | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
sockets are higher up the ball. In regards to assurance, he may be | :07:16. | :07:19. | |
point about the presents, quotes and the issues or availability of | :07:20. | :07:24. | |
assessors. And also the challenge about the risk and passed on and not | :07:25. | :07:29. | |
being able to get to the end. I will raise these issues and I will also | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
share some of this with my honourable friends as they are | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
primarily responsible for the recovery. With regards to Flood Re | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
Scheme, I would like to thank my honourable friend. And for those at | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
high risk, I recognise the matter is very important. Flood Re Scheme is | :07:50. | :07:55. | |
also underway. It's providing relief for thousands of Passover- risk you | :07:56. | :07:59. | |
can now access affordable insurance. I recognise that will bring | :08:00. | :08:01. | |
practical and emotional comfort to many. 50 insurance companies, over | :08:02. | :08:08. | |
90% of the market coming offer access to Flood Re Scheme and 53,000 | :08:09. | :08:11. | |
households benefited in the first six months. It's important to stress | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
that this is a project that is time-limited. It's there for 25 | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
years and it is funded, in effect, by every other household paying | :08:22. | :08:26. | |
towards that and the principle of taxation exist with us that we | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
support our community. In regard to business, just last month the | :08:32. | :08:34. | |
British insurers brokers Association launched a project designed to help | :08:35. | :08:41. | |
high flood risk properties access affordable insurance. Using postcode | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
data and recognising the benefit of resilience measures it should with a | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
welcome solution to many businesses. This has previously been raised as | :08:51. | :08:53. | |
an issue. I want to give this a chance to work, but I do welcome | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
evidence to see if it is working. As I pointed out, on the basis of Flood | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
Re Scheme, there is a significant principle that we have that taxation | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
helps. If we were to move to the stage where we were asking | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
businesses to start adding insurance to their premiums, in order to help | :09:11. | :09:13. | |
businesses in other parts of the country, that would be unprecedented | :09:14. | :09:17. | |
in mutual business support. I think it would take a lot of evidence in | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
order to say that was the next necessary stop. But ironically to | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
the evidence and I want to hear from people. Should that prove to be a | :09:26. | :09:29. | |
need for additional action, I remain open. -- but I am open to the | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
evidence. My friend referred to the European Union and I want to draw | :09:35. | :09:38. | |
his attention to a written statement that was made this Monday where my | :09:39. | :09:45. | |
honourable friend laid out in quite considerable detail what has | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
happened about that. All I will say is that ultimately we were going to | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
get a payment of ?50 million. We have now had to offset that by | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
paying back ?14.5 million due to an application made in 2007 which turns | :09:59. | :10:05. | |
out the expenditure was ineligible. It looks like we will end up by | :10:06. | :10:10. | |
about half ?1 million, I will leave it to him to read the written | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
statement in detail to explain that further. My honourable friend for | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
Morecambe wanted to give me more details on some of the issues that | :10:19. | :10:22. | |
he raises that I can look into it. You should be aware that the ?9.7 | :10:23. | :10:28. | |
million allocated to Morecambe, due to be completed by 2019 and will | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
protect many properties, in terms of my honourable friend for Mid Sussex | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
you had already referred to building issues, and I agree that we need to | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
follow up on those. Then, I will involve my honourable friends on | :10:43. | :10:48. | |
that matter. It's been ages for to consider the particular situation in | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
this very special part of Lancashire. I was born in the County | :10:52. | :10:54. | |
of Lancashire and it will always be in my heart. I hope I been able to | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
show my honourable friend that there are plans underway to try and | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
address these funding issues. We've also seen the benefit of the | :11:03. | :11:06. | |
additional investment, including the use of the mobile barriers. I have | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
the House will join me in thanking the Environment Agency, the | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
emergency services, and many volunteers involved in responding to | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
the east coast tidal surge this weekend. -- tidal surge. I'm sure | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
that we are relieved that -- we are grateful to the work ensuring the | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
potential impacts were minimised. The Environment Agency will continue | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
to grow my honourable friend for the Ribble Valley work collaboratively | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
to help deliver projects locally. I assure you and the House that I will | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
listen to all the comments made here today and the Government will | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
continue to try and assure that we all of us protected from flooding | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
possible. The question is this house do now adjourned. As many of that | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
opinions they aye. The ayes have it. Order, order. | :11:58. | :12:08. |