25/01/2017 House of Commons


25/01/2017

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including ppposition day debates on prisons and the impact of changes to school funding.


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Why to all the false start -- Point of order. I think we should build a

:00:00.:00:17.

sense of anticipation so I will take the point of order from the oral

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lady. Thank you, on Friday, just 58 minutes before the house rose when

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the organisation was being watched across the pond. -- in operation.

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The TWDC al on the DL with regards to child policy. Never a number of

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concessions, not nearly enough. -- not nearly enough. DWP. Do give

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families convert. I seek clarification from the leader DWP of

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if there was any intention of informing the palace at this matter

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or should we should be left to conclude that this news would be

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caught up in the avalanche of appalling policies emanating from

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the White house. The usual answer is no however I generally wish to thank

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the honourable lady from giving me notice of her point of order. I am

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aware, as other members will be, that she has a long-standing

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interest in this sensitive if you. That said, I must tell the

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honourable lady that I have received no notice from ministers of any

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intention to make a statement in the house on this subject. That is a

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judgment call them rather than for me. I'm sure her words will have

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been heard on the Treasury bench, not weak by a senior weight upon who

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I trust we can rely to and they sentiments to those who should head

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on. -- whip. We believe that an, having built up anticipation. C Ian

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Paisley. Control of Smoke Pollution Act let us hair. Thank you for

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preserving meat. The Leader of the Opposition said a police officer was

:02:15.:02:18.

shot dead at the weekend in Belfast. It was corrected by the member for

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north Belfast, that is not thankfully the case, thank God, but

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for the family and for police officers generally, can we have

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corrected by the front bench spokesman as urgently as possible so

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the racket of this hostile not contain the delirious fact that a

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police officer was murdered in Belfast. I am grateful, and I

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benefit from advise in these matters. They advice I have just

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received, there is my responsibility of whether I accept it or not, is

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advise I accept that there is no need for any further correction. It

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was an error all. I recognise what the gentleman said about how

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upsetting that will be, but it was a mistake. It has subsequently been

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corrected and the honourable gentleman has now, quite properly,

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use the opportunity of a point of order to correct it. I didn't think

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anything further needs to be said. The honourable gentleman is a wily

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character and he has found his salvation. Point of order, Mr Bob

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Blackman. You will be aware that members from across the house have

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the opportunity to sign a book of commitment for Holocaust Memorial

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Day. I am pleased to say that more than 200 honourable and right

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honourable members have signed the book but that does mean more than

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400 have-nots. Who I come through your good offices, drawn to the

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attention of the house that the book is available at the bottom of the

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member staircase between GBM and 40 PM. At is a very helpful notice. No

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disrespect to the honourable gentleman because it is very helpful

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for honours, but it had already been planned by my office that I would

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sign the great Glen I leave the chair Tuesday, and I certainly

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shall, as I always do. But I think it would be a wonderful thing if all

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colleagues would take the opportunity to sign the book as the

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honourable gentleman helpfully suggests. -- today. If there are no

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further points of order, we come to the ten minute rule motion. Ron

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Blenkinsop. -- Tom. I want to bring proposals for onshore power stations

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50 megawatts or less to adhere to the terms of the engineering

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industry and requiring circumstances to connect purposes. Our clients

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which produce this e-mail what's below are not subject to the terms

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of national planning consent. Instead, plans including those which

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produce energy from waste are regulated by the plan and talent

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governing act 1990. This was supposed to give power to local

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people for development in their locality but it has created

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loopholes and uncover scrupulous employers seeking to exploit

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construction workers working on these plants. This is because the

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terms and conditions have not been adhered to for allegations of 50

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megawatts or less. I brought this in 2015, but my friend Max from several

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areas and unions know this problem still exists today, even though they

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agreed with me last time and do still. Some of these validations are

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using deliberately confusing contracts to employ workers on bogus

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self-employment terms. Exploiting migrant workers so that rather than

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paying local workers the national industry agreement rate of six and

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97 per la depending on the accompanying sea level involved. --

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up to ?6 90 seven per la. -- hour. One of these is a Croatian company,

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the model is simple, bid for construction, subcontracts from

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companies that refuse to work in the national agreements terms and then

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undercut local wages by bringing out their work force workers from

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Croatia to work operation and wage levels. The same thing was put in

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place by GMB and Unite when constructing a power station in

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Yorkshire. As that fell under, the Croatian company was due to pay

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every penny back to its employees. The employees returned to

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integration. That is exploitation plain simple and demonstrate the

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disregard this firm hold for all its employees. Unfortunately, this very

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firm seeks further employment from a Danish firm and GMB and Unite have

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tried to tackle this. Particularly in size and in Yorkshire, Wales and

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Scotland. National is from GMB and Unite have travelled from Denmark

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and Croatia to inform the appropriate trade unions. Despite

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their hard work, any real solution to this must come from this house.

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The exploitation of migrant employees and undercutting British

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workers has only happened because of the unintended loophole in

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legislation, namely that trade union negotiating these standards do not

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need to be complied with in power stations producing less than 50

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megawatts. This needs to be written into companies of any size on

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British soil and that's the only way to prevent this undercutting and

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allow workers of all nationalities to bargain collectively to improve

:08:30.:08:34.

their pay and conditions. In vivo to leave the European Union, members

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from across this house have attempted to address concerns about

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immigration. As a nation, we need to address these concerns and take

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action on loopholes like this one, allowing companies to bring in

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migrant workers on a temporary basis, exploiting them and

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undercutting the wages of brick British workers. Instead, where they

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are able to get work on such sites, namely under confusing contract

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pricing them are self-employed, making them pay twice as many

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national insurance contributions to benefit employers. In this case and

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others, I was leaving the European Union presents both a threat, losing

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the well intentioned protection against new practices, and an

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opportunity namely to strengthen those protections to ensure not only

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are minimum standards are complied with by the industry-standard, too.

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We do not need to wait until you have left the EU to do so, we can

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act now, put a stop to doubt the manipulation of migrant workers and

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undermining of employment standards in the UK. This is an issue which

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can and should be addressed to maintain integrity of agreements. I

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raise this with no apology for presenting the bell. The question is

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that the honourable member B to bring in the bell. As many as are of

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the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". -- bring in the

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bill. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We will prepare and bring

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in the Bill? Said Kevin Barron, Sarah Champion, John Healey, Andy

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McDonald, Alan Cunningham, Iain Wright and myself.

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One Blenkinsop. -- GMB and Unite. -- Tom.

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Town and country planning electricity consent bill. Second

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reading, what they? Friday 24th of March. Friday 24 of March. We now

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come to the opposition day motion on prisons in the name of the Leader of

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the Opposition. To move the motion, I call Mr Richard Berger. Thank you.

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The last time there was an opposition day debate on prisons, it

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was nary one year ago to the very day. Back then, as honourable

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members will recall, my honourable friend from Hammersmith opened the

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debate for the opposition. He told the house that the inescapable

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conclusion is that the prison system in this country is not working,

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contrary to the famous announcement of the level nor talent. Well, one

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year on -- noble lord Hallett. This remains inescapable. -- Howard. Just

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the secretaries have cut front line prison officers by over 6000. It was

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the political decision to impose austerity on the nation and on our

:12:28.:12:30.

prison services that brought ours to this point. Married with an erratic

:12:31.:12:39.

prisons policy veering further in this way and then that way. First,

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the Right Honourable and alternate member from Rushcliffe wanted to

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reduce prison numbers. -- GMB and Unite. He was fact. Then the member

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for Epsom and Ewell to gain very authoritarian line, introducing

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benchmarking. -- learned. As well as a book banning. Those of which

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failed. Next, the honourable member forcibly Heath wanted to

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decentralise and hand... And the current Justice Secretary wants a

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little bit of policy from each, prison policy la carte. The number

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of prisoners officers were cut with no check on the number of people

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being imprisoned. The effect of this ought to have been obvious.

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Imprisoning more people and deciding they can afford. In the 12 months to

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June 2016, there were 105 self-inflicted deaths. Nearly double

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the number five years previously. An all-time high. I will give way.

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Might I draw his attention to the select committee report which

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advocated that to try and cut the cycle of prisoners reoffending, it

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would be good to try and provide employment for them, particularly by

:14:09.:14:14.

reducing national insurance contributions to employers. While it

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is not a silver bullet, it would play some part in reducing pressure

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on prisons if such a policy was adopted. I want to thank my

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honourable friend for his intervention and that is a very

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valuable points he makes with rehabilitation, a subject I will

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turn. I will give way to the Right Honourable and learned gentleman. He

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is quite right in that he set out to acknowledge the serious crisis in

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the prisons which are overcrowded, slums and weeding grounds for crime.

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He set out the interesting range of options for tackling it, but his

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motion nearly concentrates on the prison officers Association answer

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which is to spend more money and hire more prison officers, probably

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improving their pay and conditions. Does he have any views on the range

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of options which include reducing the number of prisoners by

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addressing foolish policies so you got room for the rehabilitation

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policies that the honourable member for Birkenhead has just recommended?

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I thank my honourable friend for that constructive contribution.

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There is far more than just talking about the issue of staffing and the

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issue of sentencing and numbers will be touched upon later in my speech,

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if I can make some progress. I will give way to my honourable friend.

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They thank you for giving way. There are too many people in our prisons

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mental health conditions or should not be there. Dean Saunders, one of

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113 people, took his own life in one of our prisons as last year. The

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outcome of the inquest that he should never have been there in the

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first place. I share my right honourable friend

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was my concern is that she raised injustice questions. I will deal

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with that later in my comments. When the number of offices were caught

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with no check on the numbers of people being imprisoned it should've

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been obvious. They are in prison more people. There were three and 45

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deaths in custody last year, in the same period serious assault on

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people increased by 146% and instances of self harm increased by

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more than 10,000. Within the spends of just the few weeks they were

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prison dryers, prison riots in Lincoln, in Lewis Campbell in

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Bedford and in moorland. In December, HMP Birmingham saw what

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many described as the worst riots at the category B prison since strange

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ways of quarter of this century ago. I will give way. I thank the

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honourable gentleman. A lot of this criticism is predicated on the

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concept of austerity under this government but surely he will

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concede that under the last Labour government in much more benign

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economic circumstances, his party under the end of custody licence

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scheme release dated 2000 prisoners. Over 1200 were caught reoffending.

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It was still mismanagement of the prison estate.

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The prison system has never been perfect but what I will say is under

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a Labour government there was not April is in crisis. Under this

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Conservative government that is in prison crisis and I must make some

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progress. I have been generous with my interventions. The members want

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to speak in this debate. In relation to Birmingham come it took 13

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Tornado teams over 12 hours to regain control. Some put the

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estimates of the damage at ?2 million. The ministry was warned

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back in October that urgent action was required in relation to staff

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worries about their personal safety. It remains unclear whether the

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ministry did anything at all. Last October, in an unprecedented

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intervention... I will give way. On that points come easy as wooded

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as I am that not only have we seen each huge reduction in the numbers

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of dozen officers but that is deliberate strategy to get the more

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experienced, more expensive prison officers to stand down, to retire to

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replace them with cheap apprentices, graduates coming in. That is the

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real lack of experience in our prison sector as well as the

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dangerous lack of numbers. My honourable friend makes the vital

:19:22.:19:26.

point. We have got eight dangerous cocktail of experienced prisoners in

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prison and experienced prison officers leaving prison. That is not

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good for safety and that is not good for the service. I really must make

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some progress I am afraid. In wake of these riots the Justice Secretary

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Toby has yesterday that more tornado staff are being trained. She expects

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more trouble and things to get worse before they get better. The list of

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problems the ministry has to content with his long. Overcrowding,

:19:57.:20:03.

understaffing, lack of safety, the quality of delivery from privatised

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probation services, drugs, and drones. In nearly 4000 IAPP

:20:07.:20:13.

prisoners who are still in jail way past their tireless. One prisoner

:20:14.:20:22.

officer told me the situation in our prison service is like eight game of

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Django. It feels we are on the brink of the final piece been removed and

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the whole thing coming crashing down around us. He did not say that

:20:32.:20:39.

likely. We have government the 's's White Paper which has a mixed

:20:40.:20:44.

reception from those with experience and expertise in the penal system

:20:45.:20:49.

and penal reform. I need to make some progress. Nearly all of these

:20:50.:20:55.

problems stem from the acting of eight quarters of prison staff since

:20:56.:21:01.

2010. The Justice Secretary's colleague, the honourable member for

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Gainsborough, as the Justice Secretary yesterday if she thought

:21:06.:21:12.

this cult was wise. The Justice Secretary did not answer, she has

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the opportunity to answer today. I will give way. I stand by that, we

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all want more prison officers. Camden future Labour government

:21:29.:21:32.

recruit all these prison officers? The future Labour government will

:21:33.:21:35.

not treat our hard-working, hard-pressed prison officers as the

:21:36.:21:41.

enemy. I hear the drawers of disapproval from the government

:21:42.:21:46.

benches, anybody would think they were presiding over the successful

:21:47.:21:50.

prison service. Anyone would think there was it prison crisis. The

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government benches would listen rather than draw at me and I would

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be grateful. I need to make some progress, I am afraid. The ambition

:21:59.:22:04.

set out in the White Paper to increase staffing levels is welcome.

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But 2500 officers represents less than half of the number of prison

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officers cut by conservative Justice Secretary 's since 2010. To get 2500

:22:16.:22:23.

extra officers come 8000 officers will have to be recruited in two

:22:24.:22:28.

years. I wonder if the Justice Secretary has confidence that will

:22:29.:22:33.

happen. I, Mr Speaker, do not come across many in the justice sector

:22:34.:22:37.

who think it more than eight pipe dream under her management. In the

:22:38.:22:46.

year September 2016, the Secretary of State had 400 fewer officers. It

:22:47.:22:51.

is the crisis in staff retention. They are leaving more quickly than

:22:52.:22:55.

the Secretary of State can recruit them. The prison officers

:22:56.:22:58.

Association membership has rejected eight pay deal offered by the

:22:59.:23:05.

government. What plans has the Secretary of State made to improve

:23:06.:23:08.

the offer and begin to make these jobs more attractive to the public?

:23:09.:23:14.

At present she faces in recruitment drive which is in danger of having

:23:15.:23:19.

failed before it has begun. Announcements, for example, the

:23:20.:23:26.

ex-servicemen personnel might grab quick headlines but in truth it is

:23:27.:23:31.

nothing new. They have always been former members of our armed services

:23:32.:23:36.

taking jobs in our prison service. The role of soldier and the Royal of

:23:37.:23:40.

prison officer aren't exactly the same, by the way. Prison officers

:23:41.:23:45.

who have been in the Army have told me that with the six issue of state

:23:46.:23:50.

must explain how she can converse is for the fact so many experienced

:23:51.:23:56.

officers have life and are leaving our prison service. Overseeing its

:23:57.:24:03.

transformation to the prison estate populated by more experienced

:24:04.:24:06.

prisoners and more inexperienced prison officers present eight clear

:24:07.:24:11.

and present danger. Inadequate staffing levels have the range of

:24:12.:24:16.

consequences. Prisons are less safe. Staff are far less outnumbered.

:24:17.:24:20.

Prisoners spent more time in their cells since they cannot be managed

:24:21.:24:24.

outside. Prisoner frustration is further heightened by lack of time

:24:25.:24:30.

out of their cells. I will give way. I am most grateful

:24:31.:24:35.

and commend him on his excellent speech. Dirty agree with me that one

:24:36.:24:45.

way we can reduce the present population is if the government make

:24:46.:24:50.

better progress in the transfer of foreign national offenders. At the

:24:51.:24:54.

moment there are 10,000 foreign national offenders in our prisons

:24:55.:24:58.

representing 12% of the population. They signed agreements but very few

:24:59.:25:06.

prisoners get sent back. I thank my honourable friend for

:25:07.:25:12.

making that important point. Injustice questions yesterday, the

:25:13.:25:14.

secretary said he was in discussions with the Brexit department about

:25:15.:25:20.

that and we do need to hear more about the progress of those

:25:21.:25:25.

discussions. The Justice Secretary frequently buys to the emergence of

:25:26.:25:30.

new psychoactive substances as factor in the current crisis. Does

:25:31.:25:37.

she know that in Scotland where prison policy has been stable for

:25:38.:25:41.

some years, where staffing has remained constant, there hasn't been

:25:42.:25:45.

the rocketing of Ireland, the House has been seen across the rest of our

:25:46.:25:51.

prison estate. They have NPS issues but they David axe staff. Our

:25:52.:26:01.

prisons are overcrowded. Prison in my city of Leeds holds twice the

:26:02.:26:05.

number of prisoners that is built to House. Wandsworth, Swansea, Brixton

:26:06.:26:09.

and Leicester are not far behind. All full to capacity with another

:26:10.:26:16.

50% on top. We need, this'll be the final time I will way...

:26:17.:26:24.

He knows I hold him in high esteem. Lady checker Baty said the shadow

:26:25.:26:30.

Attorney General, she wanted half half the prisoners to be released

:26:31.:26:36.

immediately. Is that Labour's policy?

:26:37.:26:45.

I am not aware of any such policy announcement being made and it is

:26:46.:26:51.

not Labour policy committee not Labour policy. Some strange is the

:26:52.:26:56.

collation is going on from members of the opposite benches. It is not

:26:57.:27:03.

Labour policy to release half of the prisoners. Why in earth would that

:27:04.:27:08.

be the case? But we do need lasting way in which to manage the prison

:27:09.:27:13.

population. Last November the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, appeared

:27:14.:27:18.

before the justice committee. Not surprisingly, he was questioned on

:27:19.:27:22.

the prisons crisis. Lord Thomas offered their view on what could be

:27:23.:27:28.

done. He said the prison population is very, very high at the moment.

:27:29.:27:33.

Whether it will continue to raise is difficult to tell but that I will

:27:34.:27:37.

use it well. I am not sure at the end of the day we can't dispose of

:27:38.:27:42.

more buyers really tough, and they mean tough, community penalties.

:27:43.:27:47.

Prison has always been seen as aid punishment. Person brings that

:27:48.:27:55.

breaks asocial contract and can be imprisoned. Members across this

:27:56.:27:59.

House by see this as befitting sanction. It must be right that

:28:00.:28:05.

where it convicted person is danger to the public, they are kept away

:28:06.:28:10.

from the public until such time they no longer pose threat. The

:28:11.:28:15.

significant minority may never be safe to release. But for some of

:28:16.:28:20.

those who offend, we must ask if prison is the right place for them

:28:21.:28:24.

to be sent. We should ensure we always reflect upon this because if

:28:25.:28:30.

we do not, we find ourselves in the position of the government does now.

:28:31.:28:36.

The warehousing of thousands of people without any support or real

:28:37.:28:39.

access to rehabilitation so when they leave prison as they inevitably

:28:40.:28:46.

will... I will not give way. They are in the same position they were

:28:47.:28:50.

when they entered. They might still be drug dependence, they might be

:28:51.:28:56.

homeless, they might still be in poverty. It is right in fact, Mr

:28:57.:29:03.

Speaker, it is our duty not to be complacent but deflect and ask

:29:04.:29:07.

ourselves if how we deal with at least some of those who break the

:29:08.:29:10.

law working with many offenders it isn't. The stay in present and it is

:29:11.:29:17.

too short for them to learn new skills or to seek qualification, or

:29:18.:29:21.

to stabilise it drug addiction. In recent weeks, I met stakeholders who

:29:22.:29:26.

questioned whether it is worth sending prison that people to prison

:29:27.:29:32.

for a few weeks and officers lament seeing the same people over and over

:29:33.:29:39.

again. It is right, Mr Speaker, when stakeholders, people at the front

:29:40.:29:43.

line and expert raises matters that we take them seriously. We must

:29:44.:29:48.

punish and we must deliver smart sentences as well as strict

:29:49.:29:51.

sentences. Always asking ourselves what is the most effective way of

:29:52.:29:56.

protecting the public. I firmly believe, Mr Speaker, this is an

:29:57.:30:02.

urgent discussion which MPs need to have.

:30:03.:30:07.

Because the amount of questions being shouted out from the

:30:08.:30:12.

opposition makes me wonder is they know what they are providing over.

:30:13.:30:18.

The risks were sending people to prison, particularly for the first

:30:19.:30:25.

time. There's a lass from the Government front bench. The

:30:26.:30:28.

situation in our prisons is not a laughing matter. -- there are

:30:29.:30:34.

laughs. We should take this seriously. We throw people into the

:30:35.:30:40.

prison river and the currents sweep them towards a more drugs and crime

:30:41.:30:43.

than they experienced outside. If we had alleged -- if annotation fails,

:30:44.:30:53.

that is partly to blame. What is the Justice Secretary doing about IPP,

:30:54.:31:00.

imprisonment for public protection services? She needs a scheme to

:31:01.:31:04.

release those who it is safe to release. She shouldn't consider how

:31:05.:31:09.

that is done, perhaps releasing them on a licence period in proportion to

:31:10.:31:14.

their original sentence. In November last year, my honourable friend, the

:31:15.:31:20.

member for Parton, publish the interim findings of his review into

:31:21.:31:25.

the treatment and outcomes for black, Asian and minority ethnic

:31:26.:31:28.

people in the criminal justice system. It's stark findings also

:31:29.:31:35.

have implications for our prisons. It found that for every 100 white

:31:36.:31:40.

women handed gusto deal sentences in the Crown Court for drug offences,

:31:41.:31:45.

227 black women were sentenced to custody. For black men, the figures

:31:46.:31:51.

are one for London burned to 100 white men. These figures ought to be

:31:52.:32:09.

-- 141 in comparison to 100. These findings are travelling in and of

:32:10.:32:13.

themselves but the fact that this is happening disproportionately also

:32:14.:32:16.

adds to the strain on our prison system. These subject of

:32:17.:32:23.

rehabilitation, it is essential to any serious criminal justice system.

:32:24.:32:27.

We are not yet getting it right. The fact is that most people in Britain

:32:28.:32:31.

will one day leave prison and third, if we are to protect the public and

:32:32.:32:35.

keep our unity is that most people in Britain will one day leave prison

:32:36.:32:38.

and third, if we are to protect the public and keep charging energy

:32:39.:32:40.

saved, rehabilitation has to be properly funded and taken seriously

:32:41.:32:42.

by politicians as an aim. It must not be treated as though it's a soft

:32:43.:32:49.

option. Between January and December 2014, 45% of adults released from

:32:50.:32:55.

prison had reoffended within year. There is released from a sentence of

:32:56.:33:00.

less than 12 months, 60% reoffended. At the time, the honourable member

:33:01.:33:05.

threaten and Newell introduced transforming rehabilitation, the

:33:06.:33:08.

probation service was reckoned to be performing well. Many stakeholders

:33:09.:33:14.

issued a warning, against the break-up of the service. As with

:33:15.:33:22.

many MLJ consultations at the time, the public was ignored. The

:33:23.:33:23.

proposals will boost through regardless. Companies received

:33:24.:33:29.

negative reports last year in Derbyshire, Durham and London. The

:33:30.:33:35.

Inspectorate... I will on the very final occasion. I want to thank my

:33:36.:33:42.

honourable friend for giving way and he's making a really powerful case.

:33:43.:33:47.

Does he agree with me that the Government change particularly to

:33:48.:33:53.

probation services, Durham used to have the best in the country, they

:33:54.:33:57.

did an amazing job in trying to rehabilitate prisoners but that has

:33:58.:34:00.

a lass fallen by the wayside because of Government reforms. -- alas. It

:34:01.:34:08.

would be nice to see opposite members take some responsibility for

:34:09.:34:12.

our probation system because it is a disgrace that it's failing anyway it

:34:13.:34:18.

is. I thank my honourable friend for her comments and it's a travesty

:34:19.:34:21.

what has happened to probation services in the area and region that

:34:22.:34:28.

my honourable friend represents. The privatisation has been a disaster.

:34:29.:34:33.

The Inspectorate probation dribble of May 20 16th and that these... I

:34:34.:34:39.

will give way. I promise, the final occasion, I give way. I'm grateful

:34:40.:34:45.

to the honourable gentleman for what he considers being weaknesses and

:34:46.:34:52.

then drawing attention to them. He hasn't come forward with a single

:34:53.:34:56.

positive alternative. Any moment remain to him, well they enlighten

:34:57.:35:00.

you as as to what Labour do other than simply complain. I certainly

:35:01.:35:10.

will do. Just bear with me. The work of the national predation service

:35:11.:35:14.

was considered better in a number of important areas. As I said,

:35:15.:35:18.

privatisation has failed. But it's not just down to the ministry and

:35:19.:35:23.

jubilation to support people will stop if people are leaving prison

:35:24.:35:25.

faced with the same conditions as the four they entered it, this will

:35:26.:35:31.

make any meaningful change difficult. Support is needed. Needed

:35:32.:35:38.

for employment, for housing. One women's prison had inmates leaving

:35:39.:35:43.

with nowhere to live and was hanging out tents and sleeping bags to

:35:44.:35:47.

people when they left. This can't be, can it, a feature of a proper,

:35:48.:35:51.

more than just the system in the fifth richest country in the world?

:35:52.:35:58.

The prison education trust was welcoming the white pepper whilst

:35:59.:36:10.

welcoming the white paper said that we need more than the ability to

:36:11.:36:13.

read and write. If the Government is serious about cutting down

:36:14.:36:20.

reoffending... He shouldn't shout out from a sedentary position. He

:36:21.:36:23.

should shout while standing up. If you forgive me for saying, shouting

:36:24.:36:29.

while standing right next to these the Seager's chair is perhaps not

:36:30.:36:33.

quite the most intelligent action he has undertaken in the course of, so

:36:34.:36:39.

far, gamers auspicious career. Thank you. I didn't take offence when the

:36:40.:36:48.

Government Whip was shouting out, are there any policies? Because I

:36:49.:36:51.

didn't think it was directed at this side of the palace. We are faced

:36:52.:36:59.

with a range of problems, there is who are vulnerable, disabled,

:37:00.:37:01.

homeless, addicted to drugs. Focusing on issues of that kind is

:37:02.:37:07.

essential because they have been victims of austerity. Prisoners are

:37:08.:37:09.

leaving prison with nowhere to sleep. Too many people are in prison

:37:10.:37:17.

with serious mental health problems. MPs rarely break promises, I promise

:37:18.:37:21.

not to take any more interventions. I will break it and allow this one.

:37:22.:37:26.

Thank you for eventually giving way. I'm most honoured. Any opposition

:37:27.:37:33.

motion, they mentioned Lewes prison, it is in special measures, as

:37:34.:37:38.

mentioned yesterday. What he felt to acknowledge is the huge amount of

:37:39.:37:41.

work going in. Not just in a prison officer numbers but other issues,

:37:42.:37:47.

such as the huge rise in sexual offenders, making it hard to manage.

:37:48.:37:52.

I don't share any suggestions as to enable it to help places like Lewes.

:37:53.:38:01.

Tackle the problems. The number of prisoners convicted of historic sex

:38:02.:38:06.

offences increasing has an effect what I would say this, does cutting

:38:07.:38:11.

the number of prison officers by one quarter mitigate this or does it

:38:12.:38:14.

make it worse? It seems to me that the answer to that is quite simple.

:38:15.:38:21.

Before I brought my remarks to conclusion, I really want to turn to

:38:22.:38:30.

my... I wanted... The present Minister has an unfortunate habit of

:38:31.:38:34.

tackling and really inappropriate points, demonstrating it before and

:38:35.:38:37.

now, because I want to talk about the case of Dean Saunders, who

:38:38.:38:40.

tragically deluded suicide in Chelmsford prison. An inquest jury

:38:41.:38:46.

found another errors in his treatment. -- committed suicide.

:38:47.:38:51.

There were recognised health problems but a procedure was not

:38:52.:38:55.

followed to move him to hospital. He was said to be seeking the details

:38:56.:38:59.

of all those cases to see if there was a pattern. The charity, inquest,

:39:00.:39:08.

whose aborted the case said he should never have been in prison in

:39:09.:39:11.

the first place because his death was preventable. -- and his death

:39:12.:39:16.

was preventable. The independent monitoring board report jury

:39:17.:39:21.

findings. What needs to happen is that the ministry must ensure that

:39:22.:39:25.

recommendations of such bodies are acted upon. In conclusion, we need

:39:26.:39:33.

to be tough on crime wherever it is found and we need to protect the

:39:34.:39:38.

public. At the same time, we need to make prisons places were effective

:39:39.:39:43.

rehabilitation is a living, breathing reality. We want people to

:39:44.:39:46.

leave prison and become productive members of society, having left

:39:47.:39:50.

crying behind. At present, when it comes to the prison service, as in

:39:51.:39:55.

relation to so much else, this Government is failing. It's failing

:39:56.:40:02.

prison at, prison inmates and their families, the public. Ultimately,

:40:03.:40:09.

the mess this Government is making of our prison system means it is

:40:10.:40:13.

failing society. I commend this notion to the house. All other. The

:40:14.:40:21.

question is as on the order paper. I can inform the house I have selected

:40:22.:40:25.

the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister to move that

:40:26.:40:31.

amendment I call the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice.

:40:32.:40:40.

Secretary Liz Frost. Truss. Since I have become Justice Secretary, I

:40:41.:40:45.

have been very clear that the of violence in our prisons is too high.

:40:46.:40:48.

We have very worrying levels of self harm and deaths in custody.

:40:49.:40:53.

Tomorrow, we will see further statistics on violence from the

:40:54.:41:00.

period July to September 20 16. The last set of statistics we saw

:41:01.:41:03.

reaffirmed why we need to take immediate action. I have been clear

:41:04.:41:09.

that these problems have been years in the making and will not be fixed

:41:10.:41:14.

in weeks or months. The honourable gentleman in a piece he wrote this

:41:15.:41:20.

morning acknowledged there are no magic fix to the issues and they

:41:21.:41:23.

certainly haven't heard any magic fixes from him today in his speech.

:41:24.:41:30.

I well. There may be no magic fixes but would she agree with the

:41:31.:41:37.

honourable member opposite that the Government pasty ban substances at

:41:38.:41:42.

the request of prison officers and increase the number of prison

:41:43.:41:44.

officers that the honourable lady has outlined. I completely agree

:41:45.:41:53.

with my honourable friend and I'm absolutely determined that they do

:41:54.:41:55.

turn this situation in our prisons around. Unless prisons are places of

:41:56.:42:04.

safety, they cannot be places where offenders can read one. That is why

:42:05.:42:07.

they are taking immediate action, as my honourable friend said, to

:42:08.:42:11.

stabilise security in our prisons, tackle the scourge of drugs, drones

:42:12.:42:17.

and found and it's why we have secure additional funding annually

:42:18.:42:23.

to recruit an extra 2500 prison officers to strengthen our front

:42:24.:42:28.

line and invest in the wider just as reforming. -- phones. I will give

:42:29.:42:33.

way. I'm grateful to her for giving way and is good news that there is

:42:34.:42:38.

additional money for prison officers coming into the service but she is

:42:39.:42:42.

right to say that the scale of violence in our prisons is variable.

:42:43.:42:48.

The reduction, and she must take responsibility, the Government last

:42:49.:42:54.

big responsibility, for the amount you are -- the amount of prison

:42:55.:43:03.

officers we currently have. I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:43:04.:43:07.

point. I have been Claire, we do need extra staff on the front line.

:43:08.:43:10.

There have been a number of issues that have resulted with what we face

:43:11.:43:17.

now. -- clear. The result of psychoactive substances, drones and

:43:18.:43:24.

thousands. We do monitor the number of sickness in our visions to

:43:25.:43:32.

address that issue. -- phones. I thank my honourable friend. Which

:43:33.:43:34.

they agree with me that, in a 30 minute speech, the only concrete

:43:35.:43:38.

analysis given by the spokesman is that there is a monster will link

:43:39.:43:44.

between a staffing and violence? Mess has been contravened by the

:43:45.:43:46.

evidence given to the selling committee by Doctor David Scott at

:43:47.:43:51.

the open University who rejected that link and that there are other,

:43:52.:43:56.

much more complex, societal matters in the prison population and estate.

:43:57.:44:00.

I thank my honourable friend. There are a number of factors,

:44:01.:44:04.

psychoactive drugs is one of them. We do need the proper level of

:44:05.:44:07.

staffing, which we are putting into prisons to make sure prison officers

:44:08.:44:14.

are able to supervise and challenge offenders properly. That is

:44:15.:44:17.

important. It is important, not just for safety, but to reform offenders.

:44:18.:44:23.

I will make a bit of progress and then I will give way to the

:44:24.:44:27.

honourable gentleman. The prison safety and reform White Paper was

:44:28.:44:30.

published last November and its detailed the biggest overhaul of our

:44:31.:44:34.

prisons in a generation to deal with these issues. It is absolutely right

:44:35.:44:39.

that Britons punished people who commit serious crimes by depriving

:44:40.:44:42.

them of their most fundamental liberty but they need to be at

:44:43.:44:46.

places of discipline, hard work and self improvement. It is the only way

:44:47.:44:50.

we will cut real ending and reduce crime in our DVDs. I give way. --

:44:51.:44:53.

communities. Just on the starting point, and I'm

:44:54.:45:05.

trying to be helpful to her in this. Her own bench indicates 89 of the

:45:06.:45:07.

prisons are currently under the staffing level for their own

:45:08.:45:12.

Ministry of Justice target. Could she tell me how many of those

:45:13.:45:20.

prisons are still going to be, under her own benchmarking staffing

:45:21.:45:25.

levels? I will address the specific issue of

:45:26.:45:29.

how we will recruit those additional staff later my comments. All of

:45:30.:45:33.

those prisons will not just only be brought up to the benchmark level,

:45:34.:45:36.

we are increasing staffing levels beyond that benchmark level. We have

:45:37.:45:45.

to recruit and then additional staff, that's part of our plan to

:45:46.:45:49.

recruit 4000 officers this year. I will give way to my honourable

:45:50.:45:51.

friend and then make more progress with my speech.

:45:52.:45:56.

HMP Lewes has mentioned in the motion by the opposition today, and

:45:57.:46:04.

yet I've not heard the Secretary of State has visited the prison and

:46:05.:46:07.

dismisses the effect of having high numbers of sexual offenders in the

:46:08.:46:12.

prison. That does affect retention of prison staff and to dismiss it

:46:13.:46:15.

out of hand shows a lack of experience and knowledge of what is

:46:16.:46:19.

happening in our prisons. My honourable friend is absolutely

:46:20.:46:22.

right. I'm going to come onto the issue of the prison population later

:46:23.:46:27.

in my speech, and specifically address the issue sex offenders.

:46:28.:46:34.

Very quickly. I must say I rather assumed you

:46:35.:46:43.

would give way. Sir Simon Burns. May I ask, given how welcome it is,

:46:44.:46:47.

the extra prison officers that she is proposing to recruit, as a

:46:48.:46:54.

short-term stopgap, I understand it takes about nine months to fully

:46:55.:47:00.

train a new prison officer. Would it be sensible to relax or give more

:47:01.:47:05.

powers to governors so that they could bring back into work retired,

:47:06.:47:11.

experienced prison officers on short-term contracts.

:47:12.:47:19.

My honourable friend is absolutely right in that assessment and we are

:47:20.:47:22.

indeed doing that. We're bringing back from prison officers on a

:47:23.:47:25.

temporary basis. I'm now going to move on to what

:47:26.:47:29.

we're doing on recruitment and retention because that is the most

:47:30.:47:33.

important issue we face, as a prison service. We will not achieve our

:47:34.:47:38.

aims of reform if we don't have enough officers, and also if we

:47:39.:47:42.

don't train the officers, have proper career devilment, to make

:47:43.:47:46.

sure we make the most of our workforce. -- career development. In

:47:47.:47:51.

October we announced our plans to recruit an extra 4000 staff in ten

:47:52.:47:54.

of our most challenging prisons. I'm pleased to say we have made 389 job

:47:55.:48:01.

offers by the end of March, head of target on that front. We have

:48:02.:48:05.

recently launched a graduate scheme, called Unblocked, to attract the

:48:06.:48:11.

top, talented graduates. We had over 1000 expressions of interest in this

:48:12.:48:17.

scheme and within 24 hours we had 350 graduates from Russell group

:48:18.:48:22.

universities applying to the scheme. So this idea people don't want to do

:48:23.:48:28.

the job I think isn't right. I think there are a lot of people out there

:48:29.:48:32.

who want to reform offenders and get involved in helping us turning

:48:33.:48:35.

around our prison service. I think we need to talk up the job of being

:48:36.:48:39.

a prison officer, because it is incredibly important. One prison

:48:40.:48:44.

officer described themselves to me as a parent, a social worker, a

:48:45.:48:51.

teacher, and what could be more important from turning somebody from

:48:52.:48:54.

a life of crime to someone who will contribute to society? What we're

:48:55.:48:58.

finding is when we go out and recruit, a lot of people are

:48:59.:49:03.

interested in this role. Of course we have do retain a fantastic prison

:49:04.:49:07.

officers. I want to quit the honourable gentleman. 80% of our

:49:08.:49:10.

staff have been with us longer than five years. So the idea we don't

:49:11.:49:15.

have a strong depth of prison officers is wrong. We need to make

:49:16.:49:20.

sure they have the career opportunities and the promotion

:49:21.:49:23.

opportunities, that's why we're looking at expanding senior grades

:49:24.:49:28.

in the service, why were looking at promoting our existing staff, but

:49:29.:49:32.

also giving them a career ladder, so they have opportunities to train on

:49:33.:49:34.

the job and get those additional skills they need.

:49:35.:49:45.

We are also giving prison officer governors the right to recruit

:49:46.:49:49.

locally. What that means is the governor can build much more of a

:49:50.:49:53.

relationship with the local community, get people involved, show

:49:54.:49:57.

people what life is really like inside prison and encourage people

:49:58.:50:01.

to work there. These local recruitment job fairs have been

:50:02.:50:04.

really successful. Of course this is challenging. Recruiting 4000 people

:50:05.:50:09.

in one year is challenging. But I think we could do it and we have

:50:10.:50:13.

that opportunity, we are enthusiastic about it, we have the

:50:14.:50:17.

budget to do it for the first time in a number of years, I will give

:50:18.:50:21.

way to the honourable gentleman. That is absolutely right on one of

:50:22.:50:23.

the things that has been very much welcomed in Bedford is the

:50:24.:50:27.

opportunity for the governor to do more proactive recruiting. Does she

:50:28.:50:32.

find it interesting that in her amendment she talks about

:50:33.:50:36.

decentralising authority to prison governors, something completely

:50:37.:50:40.

missed by the Labour Party? I completely agree with my honourable

:50:41.:50:46.

friend, because we do need to give prison governors the power over what

:50:47.:50:50.

happens in that own prison, deciding the regimes they operate, deciding

:50:51.:50:54.

the staffing structures, motivating and recruiting their own team. But

:50:55.:51:00.

also being able to have more say over how lives are turned around.

:51:01.:51:03.

One example is giving them the power over their education providers.

:51:04.:51:08.

We're going to prison governors to account, in terms of how people are

:51:09.:51:12.

improving in English and maths, how successful they are getting

:51:13.:51:15.

offenders off drugs, which we know can help lead to rehabilitation, how

:51:16.:51:19.

successful they are in getting offenders into work when they leave

:51:20.:51:22.

prison, so there are encouraged to work with local employers and setup

:51:23.:51:26.

apprenticeships. We need to give them the levers to do that, we need

:51:27.:51:30.

to give them the responsibility. We are also working on leadership

:51:31.:51:35.

training, so they have to skills and capabilities to take on those extra

:51:36.:51:38.

responsibilities. It is the only way we are going to turn lives around,

:51:39.:51:43.

because the fact is, whatever I do in Ministry of Justice and whatever

:51:44.:51:46.

my civil servants do, they are not the people on the ground in the

:51:47.:51:50.

wings, talking to prisoners Day in and day out. It's those people are

:51:51.:51:54.

going to turn rides around. That's why we need motivated staff, we need

:51:55.:51:58.

governors who are empowered to do that job and that is what our

:51:59.:52:02.

reforms will achieve. -- turn lives around.

:52:03.:52:05.

I think the whole house would actually sympathise her and support

:52:06.:52:11.

her in the area specifically about the morale of prison officers. When

:52:12.:52:15.

the gentleman from Aldershot and I were presidents prison officers

:52:16.:52:24.

together at Dartmouth, prison officers that they were out of sight

:52:25.:52:29.

and out of mind. We felt no one had interest in their weapons and it

:52:30.:52:37.

went catastrophically wrong. -- -- in them. With the right honourable

:52:38.:52:45.

lady agree we should show them they are not out of sight and out of mind

:52:46.:52:51.

and we do care? Perhaps the scheme to bring back

:52:52.:52:57.

former prison officers into service. He might be part of that. He could

:52:58.:53:01.

be a shining beacon, he could be a shining beacon.

:53:02.:53:08.

I am so reluctant to disabuse the honourable lady and to disappoint

:53:09.:53:12.

her, however the honourable member of Aldershot and I were only

:53:13.:53:18.

temporarily in Aldershot for a television documentary called At The

:53:19.:53:23.

Sharp End. In any case we are setting up a

:53:24.:53:28.

Parliamentary scheme, specifically to work more closely with prison

:53:29.:53:31.

officers and give them the kudos that they deserve, because they do

:53:32.:53:35.

an incredibly important job, often behind walls. What I want to see

:53:36.:53:40.

with the reform programme is more reaching out into the local

:53:41.:53:44.

community, working with local employers, because as the opposition

:53:45.:53:48.

spokesman said, ultimately the vast majority of people in prison one day

:53:49.:53:53.

going to be on the outside, they are going to be part of the local

:53:54.:53:56.

community and we need to on that. But whilst we are putting in place

:53:57.:54:01.

our long-term, long and medium-term measures to get the additional staff

:54:02.:54:06.

in to reform our prisons, we are also taking immediate action to

:54:07.:54:10.

improve security and stability across the estate, which includes

:54:11.:54:14.

extra CCTV, deployment of national resources and regular task force

:54:15.:54:19.

chaired by the prison meeting officer. He holds regular meetings

:54:20.:54:25.

which allows us to react quickly to emerging problems are provide

:54:26.:54:30.

immediate support to governors on anything from transferring difficult

:54:31.:54:33.

prisoners to speeding up the repair of damaged facilities. A number of

:54:34.:54:37.

honourable friends have talked about the issue of psychoactive substance,

:54:38.:54:42.

which has proved a game changer in the prison system as the prison and

:54:43.:54:46.

probation ombudsman acknowledged. In September we rolled out new

:54:47.:54:50.

mandatory drugs test the psychoactive drugs to all prisons

:54:51.:54:54.

and have increased the number of search dogs and train them to find

:54:55.:55:01.

legal highs. We are working with mobile phone operators to stop

:55:02.:55:04.

illicit phones, which we are trialling in three prisons and we

:55:05.:55:08.

have specific powers to block phones being used.

:55:09.:55:13.

Would she give way? I'm very grateful. I'm disappointed she

:55:14.:55:19.

hasn't mentioned the impact of automatic release halfway through

:55:20.:55:22.

sentence on the behaviour of prisoners. Surely if someone isn't

:55:23.:55:25.

prison for six years may know by law they will be released after three,

:55:26.:55:30.

irrespective of how badly they fade in prison, surely that has had a

:55:31.:55:34.

negative impact on the behaviour all levels in prison, that if they

:55:35.:55:37.

didn't know if they were going to be released and maybe go the full term

:55:38.:55:41.

unless they behave in prison, is the Secretary of State going to address

:55:42.:55:45.

a particular issue? Clearly if people don't behave well

:55:46.:55:49.

or misbehave they will receive additional days. That is an

:55:50.:55:53.

important part of the lever that governors have, in terms of being

:55:54.:55:59.

able to reform offenders. I was talking about security issues,

:56:00.:56:04.

and we are also working to deal with drones and we are rolling out body

:56:05.:56:07.

worn cameras across the estate. We've also got plans and we're

:56:08.:56:12.

working on dealing with organised crime gangs, with a new national

:56:13.:56:17.

intelligence unit. A number of honourable members have talked about

:56:18.:56:22.

mental health. We are investing in specialist mental health training

:56:23.:56:25.

for prison officers, to help reduce the worrying levels of self harm and

:56:26.:56:29.

suicide in our prisons. In particular we know the early days in

:56:30.:56:37.

custody artistically critical to mental health and keeping people

:56:38.:56:39.

safe. -- in custody are particularly critical.

:56:40.:56:44.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. As she will

:56:45.:56:49.

know, a lot of women in our prisons have severe mental health problems

:56:50.:56:53.

and have also been subject to a lot of abuse in their lives. Can she say

:56:54.:56:58.

why there is so little about women in the white paper and also what

:56:59.:57:02.

she's doing, and what her department is doing to implement the

:57:03.:57:05.

recommendations of the Corston report?

:57:06.:57:09.

I thank the honourable lady for her question. We are working at the

:57:10.:57:14.

moment on a strategy for winning offenders, that also deals with how

:57:15.:57:20.

we look after women who are on community sentences, as well as

:57:21.:57:25.

custodial sentences. What I want to see is more early intervention,

:57:26.:57:27.

dealing with some of those issues that lead to people reoffending,

:57:28.:57:31.

such as mental health than drugs issues. We are working on that at

:57:32.:57:34.

the moment and we'll be announcing further plans on that in the summer.

:57:35.:57:42.

We are in investing and additional 2500 staff across the prison estate,

:57:43.:57:45.

but we also changing the way we deploy those staff. There is more

:57:46.:57:49.

opportunity for prison officers to engage with offenders, to challenge

:57:50.:57:56.

them and also support them, in terms of them reforming themselves. Very

:57:57.:58:02.

briefly. Can I put to hurt the question I put

:58:03.:58:06.

to the Shadow Lord Chancellor, the issue of foreign national offenders.

:58:07.:58:09.

She will know that an easy way to reduce the number of people in our

:58:10.:58:14.

prisons is to follow through on the excellent work done by her

:58:15.:58:17.

distinguished predecessors, who are both in the House today, the members

:58:18.:58:22.

for Rushcliffe and Surrey Heath, in signing these agreements to send

:58:23.:58:25.

people back to their countries of origin. Why did she think progress

:58:26.:58:29.

has been so slow? I thank the honourable gentleman for

:58:30.:58:34.

his comments. I'm pleased to say a record number of foreign national

:58:35.:58:37.

offenders were deported in the last year, so we are making progress, but

:58:38.:58:41.

we recognise there is more work to do. My honourable friend the prisons

:58:42.:58:45.

minister is leading across government task force on this issue.

:58:46.:58:54.

Going back to the work of the 2500 new prison officers on the way we

:58:55.:58:57.

are changing the role of prison officers, what we want to do by

:58:58.:59:02.

recruiting these new staff is making sure that every prison officer has a

:59:03.:59:07.

caseload of no more than six offenders who they can challenge and

:59:08.:59:11.

support. That is the way we have built up our staffing model, making

:59:12.:59:14.

sure we have sufficient prison officers to be able to do that.

:59:15.:59:19.

Because the one-to-one to sport, dedicated officer is at the heart of

:59:20.:59:22.

how we change our reoffending rates and how we keep our prisoners and

:59:23.:59:30.

our prison officers say. The right honourable gentleman, the honourable

:59:31.:59:34.

gentleman talked about the issue of the prison population, although we

:59:35.:59:39.

are still none the wiser about what Labour's prison population policy

:59:40.:59:42.

was after he If we look at the prison population,

:59:43.:59:51.

it has been stable since 2010. We haven't had a rise in the prison

:59:52.:59:55.

population. In fact it went up by 25,000 under Labour. What we're

:59:56.:59:59.

seeing in the prison population, and this comes to the point my

:00:00.:00:03.

honourable friend Reyes, if we are seeing fewer people in prison for

:00:04.:00:07.

short sentences. We are 9000 fewer shorter sentences given out every

:00:08.:00:12.

year but we are seeing a greater number of people in prison,

:00:13.:00:16.

particularly for areas like sex offences, because we are prosecuting

:00:17.:00:18.

more sexual offenders and we have also seen these sentences for sexual

:00:19.:00:25.

offenders considerably increase, which I think is absolutely right,

:00:26.:00:29.

reflecting the serious damage that those individuals have done to their

:00:30.:00:30.

victims. Thank you. All that point, for

:00:31.:00:40.

prisons looking after sex offenders it's much more difficult than the

:00:41.:00:43.

average prison inmates because they have to be segregated and old

:00:44.:00:49.

Victorian prisons do not do that easily. That adds pressure. I think

:00:50.:00:55.

we are doing work specifically on how we deal with sex offenders

:00:56.:01:00.

better and making sure they are on treatment programmes that. Then

:01:01.:01:03.

committing those crimes in the future, which is very important.

:01:04.:01:11.

I'll give way. The one item of policy which the Labour spokesman.

:01:12.:01:18.

On in his speech was the future of the remaining IPP prisoners. There

:01:19.:01:24.

are 4000 of them still in prison years after the sentence was

:01:25.:01:27.

abolished, most of them now beyond their recommended term. Some are

:01:28.:01:32.

dangerous and can't be released but is she addressing the problem of how

:01:33.:01:35.

she can make it easier for the parole board to address these

:01:36.:01:39.

questions, reducing delays, alter the burden of proof says that they

:01:40.:01:45.

are able to release all those where there is no evidence that they pose

:01:46.:01:50.

a serious risk to the public when they are released? I thank my

:01:51.:01:59.

honourable friend. The opposition talked about IPP sentenced prisoners

:02:00.:02:03.

and it was the Labour Party who introduced the IPP sentence as my

:02:04.:02:08.

honourable friend who abolished it, so well done. Well done. We have a

:02:09.:02:11.

legacy with a number of these prisoners built in prison. What I've

:02:12.:02:17.

done is established a IPP unit within the department to deal with

:02:18.:02:21.

the backlog and make sure that we are addressing the issues that those

:02:22.:02:27.

individuals have so that they can be released into society in a Safeway.

:02:28.:02:35.

But we always last sheet public protection. -- safe way. There are

:02:36.:02:46.

some who cannot be released for that reason. I think the Secretary of

:02:47.:02:52.

State will be generous with her time. One of the area is great to me

:02:53.:02:57.

by local police, which is impacting on our prisons, particularly in the

:02:58.:03:03.

psychoactive substance abuse before coming into prison. And there are

:03:04.:03:07.

types of prisoners that are having to be managed are all a different

:03:08.:03:14.

ilk. The kind of addiction is unknown and difficult to quantify.

:03:15.:03:21.

We might have an idea on how difficult that is. My honourable

:03:22.:03:29.

friend is right. It's a very serious issue both in society and prison and

:03:30.:03:33.

we are looking at additional training for prison officers to deal

:03:34.:03:41.

with that. We also have tests to get those prisoners of those substances

:03:42.:03:45.

and prisoner education programmes because they do have a serious and

:03:46.:03:53.

their effects. When it comes to Greenpeace. What I want to do with

:03:54.:03:57.

an Musee sentences is make sure we are addressing mental health issues.

:03:58.:04:01.

-- community sentences. The four people commit crimes because they

:04:02.:04:09.

are too many people coming into our prisons that are of high risk of

:04:10.:04:14.

committing a crime. They need to intervene earlier and that is an

:04:15.:04:18.

effective way of reducing circulation through our prisons.

:04:19.:04:23.

Rather than saying we need to have an arbitrary number that the

:04:24.:04:27.

release. What we need to do is deal with these issues before they become

:04:28.:04:32.

at a level where somebody gets a kiss their team sentence and that is

:04:33.:04:38.

our approach. I'll be saying more about that in due course. To drive

:04:39.:04:46.

forward the reforms I've been talking about, they will have

:04:47.:04:52.

control over budgets of education, staffing structures and be able to

:04:53.:04:57.

set their own prison regime. At the moment, we have a whole plethora of

:04:58.:05:07.

prison rules including how big prisonerbath-mat can be. I'm

:05:08.:05:15.

grateful to my friend Mike. -- honourable friend. Particularly in

:05:16.:05:23.

respect to those with commercial relationships governors can form

:05:24.:05:26.

with companies to give proper work to prisoners. Could she say

:05:27.:05:33.

something about 131 Solutions. My honourable friend must have read my

:05:34.:05:36.

mind because it was only this morning we were talking about 131

:05:37.:05:41.

Solutions as my honourable friend was establishing that organisation.

:05:42.:05:49.

-- instrumental in establishing. This is vital to our reforms and I

:05:50.:05:53.

want people on the inside to be doing jobs, training that leads to

:05:54.:05:57.

work on the outside. We have to start from what jobs are available

:05:58.:06:01.

on the outside and bring those employers into prison. We are

:06:02.:06:05.

looking at how we can develop that. Furthermore, governors will have a

:06:06.:06:08.

very strong incentive because there will be a measurement on how many

:06:09.:06:14.

prisoners secure jobs on the outside but also how they go into

:06:15.:06:19.

apprenticeship is on. What I want to see is offenders starting

:06:20.:06:21.

apprenticeships on the inside that they can then complete on the

:06:22.:06:26.

outside, so there's a seamless transition into work. We've got some

:06:27.:06:31.

fantastic employers working with us, like brakes, Jensen, who I met this

:06:32.:06:36.

morning. But we need more players participating. -- Timpsons. We need

:06:37.:06:47.

to get that across better. -- Greggs. Instead of people going onto

:06:48.:06:55.

benefits, that they go into employment that reduces reoffending.

:06:56.:06:57.

We will launch a strategy any summer that will go into more details

:06:58.:07:02.

about. -- that I will go into more detail about. A number of honourable

:07:03.:07:05.

members have mentioned probation services. In the same way as we are

:07:06.:07:12.

measuring outcomes for prison services, such as employment,

:07:13.:07:19.

housing, education, we also want to see similar measures for probation

:07:20.:07:24.

services, so we make sure that, when people are in the community, they

:07:25.:07:30.

are also being encouraged into activities, god of drugs so they are

:07:31.:07:34.

less likely to reoffend and we will be saying more about probation in

:07:35.:07:39.

April when we announced our changes to the probation services. It's also

:07:40.:07:45.

difficult, of course, for reform to take in dilapidated buildings, old

:07:46.:07:50.

prisons, overcrowded prisons. That's why they are modernising the prison

:07:51.:07:55.

estate to create 10,000 prison places where reform can flourish.

:07:56.:07:59.

It's a ?1.3 billion investment programme and will reduce

:08:00.:08:03.

overcrowding and replace outdated prisons with modern facilities. As

:08:04.:08:10.

part of this, we are opening new prisons next month that will create

:08:11.:08:14.

over 2000 modern places and we have made announcements about new prisons

:08:15.:08:19.

in Glen Harper and whether brands well. We will make further

:08:20.:08:25.

announcements about new prison capacity is as well -- Glenhaver and

:08:26.:08:41.

Wellingborough. . One of the issues the FA as a society is not having

:08:42.:08:47.

that definition of society. At the moment, the Secretary of State say I

:08:48.:08:53.

am responsible for housing prisoners, but I say it's much more

:08:54.:08:56.

than that. I am responsible for making sure that we are using that

:08:57.:09:00.

time productively while people are in prison to turn their lives around

:09:01.:09:03.

so that they become productive members of society. That is going to

:09:04.:09:09.

be embedded in legislation and it will be accompanied by further

:09:10.:09:11.

measures, including new standards, league tables and governed mint

:09:12.:09:21.

empowerment. -- Government. We will also intervene in failing prisons

:09:22.:09:24.

and with the prison in probation ombudsman on a statutory footing to

:09:25.:09:29.

investigate deaths in custody and the number of statements from

:09:30.:09:33.

honourable member about some of the very tragic deaths in custody that

:09:34.:09:37.

we have seen, and the prison and relation ombudsman performs an truly

:09:38.:09:45.

vital role. -- extremely. The whole house like knowledge there is too

:09:46.:09:48.

much violence and self harm in our prisons. It is right to say we have

:09:49.:09:55.

decade long problems on reoffending. Almost have prisoners reoffend

:09:56.:09:57.

within one-year at a cost of ?15 million to our society and huge cost

:09:58.:10:03.

to the victims who suffer from those crimes. That is why this

:10:04.:10:09.

Government's prison reform agenda is such a priority. It's why we've

:10:10.:10:12.

secured extra funding and we are taking immediate steps to address

:10:13.:10:18.

violence and safety in our prisons. This will be a larger reform, the

:10:19.:10:22.

largest of our prisons in a generation and these issues will not

:10:23.:10:28.

be solved in weeks or months but I'm confident that, over time, we will

:10:29.:10:32.

transform our prisons, reduce reoffending, get prisoners into jobs

:10:33.:10:35.

and away from a life of crime. Thank you. The original question was as on

:10:36.:10:46.

the order as that, since when it was first produced that it is that part

:10:47.:10:50.

of the question. Can I say, we should heavily get everybody in on a

:10:51.:10:55.

seven minute limit and can I call Caroline Flint? Thank you, Mr Deputy

:10:56.:11:03.

Speaker. I have three constituencies. -- three prisons in

:11:04.:11:11.

my constituency. Three very different prisons. One has category

:11:12.:11:20.

C prisoners and we have another with 1000 prisoners in a cat C security

:11:21.:11:27.

prison. We have another prison, a private establishment. Over many

:11:28.:11:29.

years, I visited these prisons and overall I have the say the

:11:30.:11:34.

relationship has been viewed and the community has been assured that

:11:35.:11:39.

whatever is happening in these prisons has not have an adverse

:11:40.:11:43.

affect on the divinity, though we do see a lot of people have bonding

:11:44.:11:46.

from the open establishments. I know this area is very difficult and one

:11:47.:11:50.

of the things I was proudest of when I was Home Office minister was

:11:51.:11:53.

introducing drug testing on arrest for inquisitive crime. We could

:11:54.:11:57.

identify the drug problem leading people to steal and giving them

:11:58.:12:02.

support before they ended up in court. I believe we should do

:12:03.:12:05.

everything we can to address the causes of crime, as well as being

:12:06.:12:09.

dropped when people break the law. The Government has owned up to the

:12:10.:12:14.

problem. In the White Paper, it has been acknowledged that the levels of

:12:15.:12:18.

assault on staff of the highest on record. Comparing June 2012, total

:12:19.:12:29.

assaults are up 64%. Assaults on staff are 99%. Incidents of self

:12:30.:12:35.

harm of 57% deaths in custody at 75%. Prisons are less safe. But also

:12:36.:12:44.

less safe from prisoners as well. -- less safe for staff. A lot of

:12:45.:12:52.

prisoners but the system is failing to rehabilitate and failing to

:12:53.:12:54.

protect the public from further crimes. In November, the Justice

:12:55.:12:59.

Secretary wrote in the Daily Mail, what is Claire is that the system is

:13:00.:13:02.

not working. I'm afraid what is also clear is that on the generation

:13:03.:13:09.

Government what is that the Government is failing, too. --

:13:10.:13:12.

clear. Failing to give care to officers and staff, to prisoners who

:13:13.:13:17.

are more likely to be assaulted in germ cells -- assaulted, injure

:13:18.:13:26.

themselves or others. It is also failing the taxpayer because, in

:13:27.:13:29.

Hanover, the Government have admitted they cost of reoffending

:13:30.:13:34.

?15 billion. If we look in violence in prisons, the latest safety in

:13:35.:13:37.

custody statistics show that, for the year of June September 20 16,

:13:38.:13:45.

over 300 deaths in prison. A doubling of self-inflicted deaths

:13:46.:13:48.

among women prisoners from a very low base, but still important. Up to

:13:49.:13:56.

eight, from four. Over 1000 cases of self harm. That is 400 incidents of

:13:57.:14:03.

self harm to everyone via an prisoners. A staggering rate. Over

:14:04.:14:11.

500 prisoners self harming. Over 2000 hospital attendances with

:14:12.:14:15.

injuries serious enough to require treatment. That places pressure on

:14:16.:14:20.

staff having to escort and leave other staff having to staff a

:14:21.:14:23.

situation in their prisons where there have been reductions in the

:14:24.:14:29.

staffing levels. In the year to June 2016, assault, 23,775 incidents.

:14:30.:14:37.

That is 278 assault for every 1000 prisoners. The thousand 134 series

:14:38.:14:44.

assault, up 32%. This is not a happy situation. -- 3000 134. Whether it

:14:45.:14:54.

is the junior union or for that matter Unite. A prison in my

:14:55.:15:03.

constituency office training to help prisoners get employment when they

:15:04.:15:07.

leave. Little said in employees who, without the right staffing levels,

:15:08.:15:10.

could be on the receiving end of an assault or two. Was disappointed

:15:11.:15:15.

that the Minister didn't meet with community union to discuss the

:15:16.:15:18.

charter for safety operating standards. The union represents many

:15:19.:15:24.

of the staff in prisons and like EPO A, I think they've come up with

:15:25.:15:28.

other constructive, practical suggestions as to how it could be

:15:29.:15:31.

proved. That method that. It worries new that when we set for community

:15:32.:15:37.

union shows that it is common to have one officer on a wing of 60

:15:38.:15:41.

plus inmates. I'd be interested to hear from the Minister and his

:15:42.:15:44.

response what they will do about making sure the end are working

:15:45.:15:48.

better for our prisons. When it comes to the white paper

:15:49.:15:58.

there is much, I think, worth discussing. It outlines improved

:15:59.:16:02.

training for staff, body worn cameras, cognitive skills straining

:16:03.:16:10.

and I agree with all of that, and the governors to have more freedoms,

:16:11.:16:13.

but I have to say to the right honourable lady, in one of my

:16:14.:16:17.

prisons in particular, the turnover of governors over the last decade

:16:18.:16:21.

has been enormous. So we need to make sure we have governors who are

:16:22.:16:25.

able to stay put and put into effect any of the changes they want to be

:16:26.:16:30.

put into practice. But I'm sure she agrees as well, staffing is still

:16:31.:16:34.

key to all of this. Stable staffing where people can work together with

:16:35.:16:37.

prisoners, but also with each other to the best effect. The minister

:16:38.:16:42.

promised 2500 more staff but that will not bring staffing levels back

:16:43.:16:50.

to the 2010 level. The Government claim the 2500 is extra, it is good

:16:51.:16:54.

to have clarity. But in answer to questions at the Justice committee

:16:55.:16:59.

on the 29th of November in 2016, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

:17:00.:17:02.

State referred to the fact this will mean 8000 to be recruited in the

:17:03.:17:07.

next two years which is 1000 per quarter, that is two to three times

:17:08.:17:12.

the rate of the achieved in recent years, which looks a tall task. My

:17:13.:17:23.

prison went from 252 staff to 296. HMP Moreland went from 386 to three

:17:24.:17:35.

54. From 2015-2016 with upwards of 300 to 800 officers recruited per

:17:36.:17:39.

quarter but that has failed to stem the shortfall and we are dealing

:17:40.:17:43.

with an ageing prison population. It is important to look at new ideas

:17:44.:17:47.

about how we can support prisoners and rehabilitate them but without

:17:48.:17:50.

the right numbers of staff in our prisons, I feel that will be a tall

:17:51.:17:58.

task, if not impossible to achieve. It is a real privilege to follow the

:17:59.:18:03.

right honourable lady. She is highly effective advocate for the causes in

:18:04.:18:07.

which he believes was an outstanding minister. When the Labour Party

:18:08.:18:11.

comes to its senses, I hope she will restored to the front bench position

:18:12.:18:15.

she deserves. May I also say congratulations are in order to the

:18:16.:18:19.

Shadow Justice Secretary for securing this debate. It's important

:18:20.:18:23.

have a roof opportunity to reflect on what is happening in our prisons.

:18:24.:18:29.

I am grateful to him for calling this debate but it was a pity that

:18:30.:18:33.

in the course of his remarks, while he understandably drew attention to

:18:34.:18:37.

concerns about what is happening in our prison estate, did not put

:18:38.:18:41.

forward a single positive alternative proposition. The

:18:42.:18:46.

contrast with my right honourable friend the lost Chancellor and

:18:47.:18:49.

Justice Secretary was striking. She has been in office for less than 12

:18:50.:18:53.

months but during that time she has unveiled and advanced a series of

:18:54.:18:58.

reforms which I believe have the potential to transform our justice

:18:59.:19:07.

system more powerfully for the good than any of her predecessors for a

:19:08.:19:10.

generation. And the way in which she dealt so skilfully with

:19:11.:19:12.

interventions and also outlined not just in policy detail but with

:19:13.:19:14.

authority and humanity, what requires to be done underlines how

:19:15.:19:20.

fortunate we are to have a genuine, passionate and humane reform in such

:19:21.:19:25.

an important role. Now, it's quite right and I think

:19:26.:19:28.

almost every speaker in this debate will, paid tribute to those who work

:19:29.:19:32.

in our prisons. I always remember a visit I made to HMP Manchester when

:19:33.:19:37.

I talk to a prison officer who was working with the most difficult

:19:38.:19:43.

prisoners. I asked him why it was he had chosen, deliberately, to work

:19:44.:19:48.

with some of those offenders whose cases were most complex and whose

:19:49.:19:52.

behaviour was most threatening. He explained he'd been brought up in a

:19:53.:19:56.

part of Manchester affected by crime, with unique challenges and

:19:57.:20:01.

one of the things he wanted to do was put something back, to work with

:20:02.:20:06.

offenders, to make sure their were changed, and as a result that people

:20:07.:20:10.

who had been nothing but trouble, people who had been liabilities to

:20:11.:20:16.

society, people who had brought misery and pain into the lives of

:20:17.:20:19.

others, people who were wasting their own lives, could be turned

:20:20.:20:25.

into assets. That we as a society could ensure whatever talents they

:20:26.:20:30.

had, long buried in many cases, could at last be put to the service

:20:31.:20:34.

of the community. I remember being inspired by the fact that this young

:20:35.:20:38.

man from a working-class background had decided that the biggest service

:20:39.:20:41.

he could give to the community that raised him as to try and turn round

:20:42.:20:49.

the lives of others. It's that spirit that is abundant in those who

:20:50.:20:53.

work in our prisons. The frustrations I had in my role, I

:20:54.:20:57.

never for a moment was anything other than grateful for their

:20:58.:21:00.

service, their commitment and their dedication and that is why I'm

:21:01.:21:05.

particularly grateful to my right honourable friend for the steps she

:21:06.:21:11.

has taken to enhance the way those professionals at work in our prisons

:21:12.:21:16.

can do the right thing. Not just the reform governors who are changing

:21:17.:21:20.

the way in which prisons work by exercising a greater degree of

:21:21.:21:23.

control and autonomy over the individual prisons that are there

:21:24.:21:26.

responsible at it, but the way in which those who work on the front

:21:27.:21:30.

line in our wings, particularly but not only in our form prisons, being

:21:31.:21:35.

empowered to take a much more positive role in encouraging and

:21:36.:21:39.

securing rehabilitation. I would like a decree to pay tribute to my

:21:40.:21:41.

right honourable friend for the initiative she has unveiled,

:21:42.:21:46.

unlocked Graduate. As she pointed out more than 350 undergraduates

:21:47.:21:53.

from some of our very best universities have now applied

:21:54.:21:57.

explicitly to work in prisons, just as teach first transformed the

:21:58.:22:00.

reputation of teaching, so this initiative is helping to recruit

:22:01.:22:05.

more people to our prisons. It is also the case that alongside the

:22:06.:22:13.

work of unblocked graduates, prison education is ensuring those in

:22:14.:22:16.

custody at last receive a higher quality of education and the chance

:22:17.:22:19.

to transform their lives for the better. It is also the case that the

:22:20.:22:25.

work of Charlie Taylor in reviewing youth justice is being followed up

:22:26.:22:28.

and implemented by my right honourable friend. And in so doing,

:22:29.:22:33.

we are making sure that those whose contact with the criminal justice

:22:34.:22:38.

system occurs relatively early in their lives, who would otherwise be

:22:39.:22:41.

set on a course of criminality, are diverted from crime and ensured to

:22:42.:22:45.

have a productive future at the earliest possible stage.

:22:46.:22:49.

Talking about youth justice, I think there is an important lesson that

:22:50.:22:53.

all of us can draw from the experience of the youth justice

:22:54.:22:57.

system over recent years. It has been the case that youth crime has

:22:58.:23:02.

fallen, dramatically, in the last few years, at the same time as the

:23:03.:23:06.

number of young offenders in custody has fallen also. It is not the case

:23:07.:23:13.

that in order to be tough on crime that we need to maintain the same

:23:14.:23:19.

level of individuals in custody that we currently have. There are smarter

:23:20.:23:25.

alternatives to incarceration that we need to contemplate. Let me be

:23:26.:23:30.

clear, there will always be some criminals for whom custody is the

:23:31.:23:34.

only appropriate answer, given the seriousness of their crime and the

:23:35.:23:38.

capacity that they have to reoffend. Sondheim Society will be so outraged

:23:39.:23:43.

by particular crimes that incarceration is the only answer. --

:23:44.:23:47.

and Sondheim Society will be so outraged.

:23:48.:23:53.

I work in the city constituency and a visit to the Salvation Army a

:23:54.:23:56.

couple of years ago, I came across somebody who had been imprisoned but

:23:57.:24:00.

got institutionalised by it and therefore he just wanted to go back

:24:01.:24:04.

fairly soon afterwards. My honourable friend is absolutely

:24:05.:24:08.

right, some individuals become institutionalised by prison life.

:24:09.:24:11.

There are many individuals who are imprisoned as a result of problems

:24:12.:24:16.

that they have acquired, either mental health problems, or substance

:24:17.:24:21.

abuse or a related issues, which means that their behaviour, as such,

:24:22.:24:27.

that for their own health and Society does not safety, their need

:24:28.:24:31.

is to be for a time separated from society, but they shouldn't be

:24:32.:24:35.

imprisoned. They should be receiving appropriate mental health care,

:24:36.:24:38.

because the environment they face in custody and incarceration will only

:24:39.:24:41.

harm them and do nothing to either healed make sure they become

:24:42.:24:45.

positive and contributing members to society. One of the things I would

:24:46.:24:48.

like to see, and I know my right honourable friend is looking closely

:24:49.:24:52.

at, is the possibility of building on the experience of problem-solving

:24:53.:24:57.

course, where those who are charged with sentencing offenders have the

:24:58.:25:02.

option of course of custody, who can also save to the offender if they

:25:03.:25:09.

undertake mental health care or commit to dealing with their drug or

:25:10.:25:13.

alcohol addiction or change their behaviour in a meaningful way, they

:25:14.:25:17.

have the opportunity to serve their sentence out of custody. I also

:25:18.:25:21.

think it is the case that release on temporary licence, the opportunity

:25:22.:25:25.

for those people who have shown genuine redemption and a desire to

:25:26.:25:29.

commit to society, giving them the opportunity to be released early,

:25:30.:25:33.

under strict terms, so that they can reacquaint themselves with the world

:25:34.:25:37.

of work and learning has to be the right way to go. I know of one who

:25:38.:25:43.

is has been serving her sentence after one horrendous mistake, in a

:25:44.:25:50.

women's prison in Surrey, who as a result of release on temporary

:25:51.:25:53.

licence is not only been able to act as a mental to young offenders to

:25:54.:25:56.

steer them away from a life of crime but is now pursuing training in

:25:57.:26:02.

order to becoming a barrister. -- a mentor. To ensure the life which she

:26:03.:26:07.

herself was responsible for harming can now be turned to good. I think

:26:08.:26:12.

that example, I think that path is one that all of us in this house can

:26:13.:26:16.

embrace, and for that reason, I support the amendment.

:26:17.:26:22.

I'm grateful and it is a pleasure to follow the right honourable

:26:23.:26:28.

gentleman. He, like me, is one of the number of exes in this chamber

:26:29.:26:31.

today who have had responsibility at different times for the prison

:26:32.:26:34.

service. He will know how difficult it is, as I do, to the Secretary of

:26:35.:26:39.

State was my job and prison minister 's job to deal with these issues.

:26:40.:26:43.

What you said today's extremely important about who we imprison and

:26:44.:26:47.

how we use imprisonment and how we use alternative sentences. That

:26:48.:26:51.

should be listened to. Even he would recognise there are many challenges

:26:52.:26:56.

in the current system. I think from the Secretary of State's

:26:57.:26:58.

contribution, she knows it. I think for my right honourable friend who

:26:59.:27:04.

has tabled a motion today, he knows it. And speaking today is a member

:27:05.:27:09.

from the Justice committee, in the absence of the honourable gentleman

:27:10.:27:13.

for Bromley and Chislehurst, supported by the honourable lady of

:27:14.:27:16.

Banbury, I want to put down some of the challenges as we see them from

:27:17.:27:20.

the Justice committee today. My right honourable friend the Don

:27:21.:27:23.

Valley has indicated some of the statistics but it is extremely

:27:24.:27:28.

challenging. We have had six major incidents. We have had an escape,

:27:29.:27:34.

which is an unusual occurrence for the last 13-14 years in prison. We

:27:35.:27:42.

have got, sadly, a very high level of self-inflicted deaths, 107, a

:27:43.:27:47.

rise of 13% over the previous year. And I certainly expect that to rise

:27:48.:27:51.

still further with the figures that will be announced tomorrow. I will

:27:52.:27:55.

give way. Extremely grateful. He will be

:27:56.:27:58.

aware, as we all are, that on December 16 last year Jerry Smith

:27:59.:28:04.

tragically killed herself in HMV Doncaster. The position of

:28:05.:28:08.

transgender prisoners is one that is absolutely agonising in its

:28:09.:28:12.

implication and I think it's one we simply have to recognise. Would he

:28:13.:28:16.

accept that we need to do more for transgender prisoners at the moment,

:28:17.:28:19.

in view of the horrendous record of self harm and suicide that has

:28:20.:28:22.

afflicted them? I agree with my honourable friend. I

:28:23.:28:28.

think question one yesterday was on that very issue on the Secretary of

:28:29.:28:31.

State indicated it is a priority for the Government. We do have a number

:28:32.:28:36.

of vulnerable people in prison and those self-inflicted deaths, and

:28:37.:28:39.

also the homicides that have occurred are extremely difficult. We

:28:40.:28:44.

have, as my right honourable friend mentioned, 26% increase in the

:28:45.:28:48.

reported incidents of self harm. We have a massive increase of 35% in

:28:49.:28:53.

hospital attendances. We have a massive increase in the number of

:28:54.:28:59.

assaults on prison officers, by 34%. We have increases in the number of

:29:00.:29:07.

attacks on bladed weapons, spitting and blunt instrument use, which is a

:29:08.:29:10.

really challenging situation and I accept that. I welcome the fact that

:29:11.:29:16.

the Secretary of State has, to some extent, you turned on the staffing

:29:17.:29:20.

cuts that her predecessors had in place. She will know that there is a

:29:21.:29:23.

real challenge to accept the increase to 4000 in each of the two

:29:24.:29:29.

years, to get a net increase of 2500. I know the committee welcomes

:29:30.:29:33.

that as a whole. At a time when we've seen the cut in

:29:34.:29:39.

staffing numbers from 26% since 2010, we're not going to get

:29:40.:29:43.

anywhere near back to the central point of the level of prison

:29:44.:29:48.

officers that were in place in May, 2010. She needs to look at how we do

:29:49.:29:52.

that. But I accept that is not the only concern we have today. I want

:29:53.:29:56.

to come if I may, in the absence of the chair of justice of the select

:29:57.:30:00.

committee, just highlight some of the things we are currently looking

:30:01.:30:03.

at in the Justice select committee which I have the prisons minister

:30:04.:30:08.

can respond to at some point in time, because these are key issues.

:30:09.:30:14.

But we're not going to be what implements policies for a number of

:30:15.:30:21.

years, so we need to offer strong scrutiny to other government is

:30:22.:30:24.

currently doing anything this is the key issue the next few weeks and

:30:25.:30:28.

months of the Justice committee. We have now established a presence at

:30:29.:30:32.

committee, looking at a range of issues to do with government

:30:33.:30:35.

empowerment and some other challenges the minister names. I am

:30:36.:30:39.

pleased to share that role with the honourable lady for Banbury but we

:30:40.:30:44.

are still, if I may, a little short of some of the detail of what's

:30:45.:30:49.

going to happen in relation to the government's programme. And I think

:30:50.:30:55.

it would be helpful for the Minister and the government to look at

:30:56.:30:59.

putting the meat on their current level of activities so that we can

:31:00.:31:03.

judge what is going to be taking place in whatever time they have

:31:04.:31:07.

left in office in this government. Because we can talk about what the

:31:08.:31:11.

alternative opposition policy will be, the election could be as far

:31:12.:31:14.

away as three and a half years away nearly, so therefore in that time

:31:15.:31:18.

this government have a key role to play. And we have heard today that

:31:19.:31:22.

government empowerment will take place in just over two months' time

:31:23.:31:27.

in April 20 17. We have one third of those and governors who will be

:31:28.:31:30.

given that greater power and greater autonomy. I am not as clear as yet

:31:31.:31:37.

how that will work in practice, what the benchmarks will be, how the

:31:38.:31:41.

ministers will monitor those governors, what the outcomes will be

:31:42.:31:45.

for those governors and what freedoms they will have that make a

:31:46.:31:48.

difference. I am not sure that the speed of bringing those changes and

:31:49.:31:51.

has yet been thought through by the government. We have as the Minister

:31:52.:31:56.

will now six reformed prisons, which were piloted only in the last six

:31:57.:31:59.

months, which we don't yet know the outcome of those reforms. I think it

:32:00.:32:03.

is incumbent on the Minister to give some indication of what the current

:32:04.:32:08.

outcomes are on those six reformed prisoners. I am not clear on the

:32:09.:32:14.

accountability. I know from having the prison ministers job that when

:32:15.:32:17.

something goes wrong in a prison it will end up on the prison Minister's

:32:18.:32:21.

desk and almost certainly end up on the front of the Daily Mail or the

:32:22.:32:26.

front of the sun. I'm not clear how that accountability will work in

:32:27.:32:31.

relation to governors, and I think some clarity from the Minister as to

:32:32.:32:35.

what the decision in a prison 200 miles from his office in the

:32:36.:32:39.

Ministry of Justice will mean when ultimately it lands on his desk for

:32:40.:32:42.

that level of accountability. I'm not clear, and I want clarity today,

:32:43.:32:48.

about what the commissioning process will be for prison governors. Do

:32:49.:32:53.

they have the skills and training to be able to commission services

:32:54.:32:57.

outside for employment, for health, for procurement. Those things have

:32:58.:33:01.

been done centrally. I'm not sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether the

:33:02.:33:05.

effect of all that local level of commissioning will mean that we lose

:33:06.:33:08.

some of the economies of scale that the Ministry of Justice has, and in

:33:09.:33:13.

a fractured localised system what is the role of the Ministry of Justice

:33:14.:33:20.

in setting issues in due cause? I'm not sure how governors are going to

:33:21.:33:26.

recruit local prison officers. I would welcome some clarification on

:33:27.:33:29.

behalf of our committee as to whether terms and conditions of

:33:30.:33:33.

service, training, delivery are going to be devolved down, or

:33:34.:33:36.

whether they're not. These are issues that go to the heart of the

:33:37.:33:42.

government's amendment to the motion today, and go to the heart of the

:33:43.:33:45.

prison subcommittee that we'll be looking at on a cross-party basis

:33:46.:33:52.

with the Justice committee in the near future. I'm not sure whether

:33:53.:33:55.

there is discretion. We've had evidence from Peter Dawson of the

:33:56.:34:00.

Prison Reform Trust last week who said it would "Unleash competition

:34:01.:34:03.

between governors, prisoners and probation in a competitive

:34:04.:34:06.

environment, and the pros and cons might even drive up costs overall".

:34:07.:34:11.

I think we need some real vision and clarity, not of the direction of

:34:12.:34:17.

travel but of what the bones of that travel are with ministers as a

:34:18.:34:21.

whole. I think it is also important we have some indication of what

:34:22.:34:23.

performance measurement and league tables are going to look like

:34:24.:34:29.

because ultimately at the end of the day as the right honourable member

:34:30.:34:32.

for Surrey Heath and the Minister and my honourable friend have said,

:34:33.:34:34.

we are caring for people through the gate. Most prisoners will leave

:34:35.:34:41.

prison and return. Our due to as the state is to make sure they return in

:34:42.:34:44.

a way that does not let them reoffend and ensures they contribute

:34:45.:34:48.

positively to society. We need more facts from the government and bore

:34:49.:34:54.

direction. A pleasure to follow the right honourable member who is one

:34:55.:35:00.

of the club of exes in this area. When I held my honourable friend's

:35:01.:35:05.

responsibilities, he knew perfectly well the bits of the system that

:35:06.:35:11.

were very difficult to change, and I remember talking to him about the

:35:12.:35:15.

possible to how many foreign nationals who are able to transfer

:35:16.:35:18.

out of the system, and his regular interrogation as to how we doing

:35:19.:35:22.

with the numbers showed his expertise and understanding of the

:35:23.:35:25.

system and I am delighted at the work he is doing on the Justice

:35:26.:35:28.

select committee and contributing to this debate. I hope my contribution

:35:29.:35:33.

as one of the exes in trying to reflect on what I see about the

:35:34.:35:40.

system will be hopefully a positive contribution to the debate, and I'm

:35:41.:35:46.

delighted that it's my neighbour, my honourable friend for East Surrey,

:35:47.:35:53.

who is the prisons minister who has been in my experience absolutely

:35:54.:35:58.

open to talking to people who are experienced in the system, getting

:35:59.:36:01.

ideas and getting very well across his brief. And he is to be

:36:02.:36:05.

congratulated for that. He is less clear enough serving under the Lord

:36:06.:36:10.

Chancellor who has the qualities my right honourable friend the Surrey

:36:11.:36:15.

Heath gave, and he and the current Lord Chancellor of course put policy

:36:16.:36:21.

back into the place that it was left by the time of my right honourable

:36:22.:36:25.

learn that friend, the member for Rushcliffe, under whom I have the

:36:26.:36:29.

honour to serve. The Shadow Lord Chancellor had I thought the one

:36:30.:36:33.

point in his speech was the change of policy in that period between

:36:34.:36:41.

2012 and the arrival of my right honourable friend the Surrey Heath

:36:42.:36:45.

as Lord Chancellor did create significant difficulties for the

:36:46.:36:53.

prison service. They would have found some favour with my friend the

:36:54.:36:57.

honourable friend the Shipley. However we are now dealing with the

:36:58.:37:01.

consequences and I have to tell him that the prison officers Association

:37:02.:37:06.

is not innocent in this matter. The priority for my right honourable

:37:07.:37:10.

friend for absent annual was to deliver the savings target that the

:37:11.:37:12.

Ministry of Justice had to deliver, and they were significant. He was

:37:13.:37:21.

then presented with a deal by the prison officers Association that if

:37:22.:37:24.

he ended the competition programme for the potential privatisation of

:37:25.:37:32.

prisons, a competition programme begun by the party opposite, if that

:37:33.:37:38.

was the and the wings were left in the control of the public sector,

:37:39.:37:41.

then they agreed to the establishment changes that were in

:37:42.:37:46.

the public sector bits to try and hold onto the management of

:37:47.:37:50.

Birmingham prison, and those were savage cuts in the establishment and

:37:51.:37:54.

indeed the winning bid for HMP Birmingham had about 150 more staff

:37:55.:38:01.

in the bid than the public sector bid, but it was the second round of

:38:02.:38:04.

establishment cuts that would then be put into the service after

:38:05.:38:12.

2012-2013, and implemented in the course of 2013-2040 and saw the very

:38:13.:38:17.

severe establishment of reductions to the prison service, all in the

:38:18.:38:19.

public sector, which is what my honourable friend is now having to

:38:20.:38:24.

wrestle with the consequence of, and the government has woken up to the

:38:25.:38:29.

consequences and is now putting 2500 prison officers back on the

:38:30.:38:33.

establishment, and I know my honourable friend the South West

:38:34.:38:39.

Beds had to deal with the consequences of this policy as the

:38:40.:38:46.

then prisons minister, and immensely difficult it was too. And the

:38:47.:38:54.

message I want to give to my honourable friend and the front

:38:55.:38:57.

bench, and indeed try to win the itinerant across the house is the

:38:58.:38:59.

potential role of the private sector. Do not overlook, and the

:39:00.:39:07.

problem under my right honourable friend for absent annual was the row

:39:08.:39:12.

with circa and G four S. Over the management of the tagging contracts.

:39:13.:39:18.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it caused G for S and circa

:39:19.:39:22.

not to be considered for contract, the biggest suppliers of private

:39:23.:39:28.

sector services into the custodial system, and it meant that we lost a

:39:29.:39:35.

serious amount of competition, indeed a whole competition programme

:39:36.:39:39.

was stopped, and the right honourable Lady for Don Valley

:39:40.:39:42.

referred to Doncaster prison services, that is run by circular,

:39:43.:39:48.

and when I went to see it as prisons minister, it was a quite outstanding

:39:49.:39:53.

prison, and circa had engaged with the department and had a contract,

:39:54.:40:00.

and they were incentivised on what they were going to deliver as

:40:01.:40:05.

Doncaster prison. There is not necessarily a right and wrong answer

:40:06.:40:09.

that public and private sector but the big advantage that private

:40:10.:40:11.

sector prisons give you is first of all they are cheaper, they are

:40:12.:40:18.

cheaper to run and blessed cost to the service. They also invest

:40:19.:40:22.

heavily in the leadership in those prisons, and what I've found in my

:40:23.:40:28.

experience is the most innovative prison regimes, particularly around

:40:29.:40:31.

rehabilitation and management of offenders in prison was in the

:40:32.:40:35.

private sector. Now I know that my honourable friend's reforms outlined

:40:36.:40:39.

in the White Paper trying to give some of these freedoms now to the

:40:40.:40:43.

governors of public sector prisons, and I wish him all power to his

:40:44.:40:48.

elbow in order to do that, but it is my belief that if we are to get

:40:49.:40:54.

resources into the custodial estate, there are two ways we are going to

:40:55.:40:58.

achieve that. It has to be done in partnership with the private sector.

:40:59.:41:04.

We need to change and improve the state, that means continuing with

:41:05.:41:08.

the process of selling off the old prisons that are expensive to run

:41:09.:41:17.

and often inexpensive parts of real estate, and operated by the private

:41:18.:41:20.

sector. If the money is not available in the public sector

:41:21.:41:24.

budget now, then at least the private sector gives you the ability

:41:25.:41:31.

then to deal with the funding over a prolonged period. Oakwood prison,

:41:32.:41:43.

the costs of running a place in Oakwood prison, the shadow spokesman

:41:44.:41:49.

makes the point was ?13,000 a year for it was in place compare to an

:41:50.:41:53.

average cost of ?22,000 per place for a more expensive... Thank you Mr

:41:54.:42:02.

Deputy Speaker, and I'm pleased to follow the right honourable member

:42:03.:42:08.

for Reigate, and I want to thank him for his interest in Durham prison,

:42:09.:42:12.

when he was prisons minister but I have to say I profoundly disagree

:42:13.:42:17.

with him that privatisation of the prisons is somehow the answer to the

:42:18.:42:22.

problems were currently facing. Like my right honourable friend, the

:42:23.:42:27.

member for Don Valley, I have three prisons in my constituency. I have

:42:28.:42:33.

Durham prison which is a community prison with 1000 prisoners or

:42:34.:42:38.

thereabouts, I have a high security prison, Franklin prison, with over

:42:39.:42:44.

800 prisoners, and I also perhaps more unusually because there are not

:42:45.:42:47.

very many of them in the country, I have a women's prison and a youth

:42:48.:42:54.

offending institution as well. So I think I'm in a pretty good position

:42:55.:43:01.

to have some direct and first-hand knowledge, right across the prison

:43:02.:43:05.

estate, what is happening to prisons currently. And the picture is not a

:43:06.:43:16.

good one. What we know is that prison budgets have been reducing

:43:17.:43:21.

with the budget being cut by 2010 by almost a quarter. There were savings

:43:22.:43:31.

made last year up to about 900 million, with another 91 million of

:43:32.:43:37.

savings being requested from prisons this year. At the same time of

:43:38.:43:43.

course the prison population has not really fallen, and most of these

:43:44.:43:51.

cuts have come in terms of cuts to prison staff numbers. So we have had

:43:52.:43:58.

a reduction of over 6000 prison staff since 2010. Now this has

:43:59.:44:07.

really an enormous impact on the ability of our prisons to run

:44:08.:44:11.

effectively, and as we have heard this afternoon, welcome though it is

:44:12.:44:17.

that the government is going to recruit another 2500 prison

:44:18.:44:21.

officers, it doesn't make up for the shortfall or the cuts since 2010,

:44:22.:44:26.

and of course we also know that the government will have to recruit

:44:27.:44:32.

many, many more than 2500 in order to be able to find the number of

:44:33.:44:37.

prison staff that we need. And what has been the impact of this on our

:44:38.:44:39.

prisons? Deaths in custody are up by 14%,

:44:40.:44:52.

self harm is up 21%, assaults are up 13% and that means assaults on staff

:44:53.:44:57.

being up 20%, and serious assault on staff up by 42%.

:44:58.:45:05.

Now, I don't know about the prisons minister sitting on the bench, but

:45:06.:45:09.

that is not a record that I would want to stand up and defend. That's

:45:10.:45:13.

a set of circumstances that I would want to come to the House and we

:45:14.:45:19.

recognise that there are real problems in our prisons, and these

:45:20.:45:23.

other measures we are going to take as a matter of urgency, in order to

:45:24.:45:29.

get our prisons back on track. And a white paper doesn't really cut that,

:45:30.:45:35.

so one of the things I want to hear from the prisons minister in his

:45:36.:45:39.

winding up, is what is he going to do as a matter of urgency, to

:45:40.:45:44.

address some of the problems facing our prisons. I want to just quickly,

:45:45.:45:50.

because I've only got for a minute for each of them, run through what I

:45:51.:45:55.

think it needs to do. For the women's prison, far to women are

:45:56.:46:01.

inappropriately sent to prison. 52% of women in our prisons have

:46:02.:46:04.

children and lots of those children end up going into care when their

:46:05.:46:13.

mother -- mothers are put into prison for a short period of time. I

:46:14.:46:16.

would like to see from the Government a clear strategy to deal

:46:17.:46:22.

with women prisoners, to direct them to other forms of custody and bring

:46:23.:46:26.

forward a plan and I look forward to hearing what he and the Justice

:46:27.:46:29.

Secretary is going to come forward with. I think they said they would

:46:30.:46:34.

announce it later this year, in terms of a plan for women prisoners,

:46:35.:46:40.

and in particular cutting the prisoners state, so women are really

:46:41.:46:46.

given much more sentences in the community, or other types of

:46:47.:46:50.

custody, rather than in the prisons as they currently are. With Durham

:46:51.:46:59.

prison, that's community prison, received is really high. We need to

:47:00.:47:04.

see measures to cut it and in particular to continue to invest in

:47:05.:47:08.

education, skills and work experience. We know from the

:47:09.:47:13.

monitoring reports on the inspections that not enough

:47:14.:47:16.

attention is going into education and skills. That is really

:47:17.:47:22.

difficult. Difficult to maintain high levels of

:47:23.:47:26.

education my numbers are being cut. That is an area the Government needs

:47:27.:47:32.

to address. Frankland prison, in some respects presents the biggest

:47:33.:47:38.

challenge for the Government. The prisoners have very complex needs.

:47:39.:47:41.

We know from the monitoring reports that what is critical is that the

:47:42.:47:46.

Government continues to resource centre that deals with violent

:47:47.:47:50.

behaviour, for example, and tries to turn it round for the prison

:47:51.:47:54.

population. All of those special services are at risk if prisons are

:47:55.:47:58.

not properly staffed and if they are not properly resourced. What I want

:47:59.:48:05.

to hear from the minister is what is he going to do quickly, to resource

:48:06.:48:10.

our prisons more effectively, and to ensure the sedative The Miz reduced

:48:11.:48:19.

and alternative to prisons for men and women? Gordon Henderson, it will

:48:20.:48:29.

have to go down to six Thank you for that good news, Mr Deputy Speaker.

:48:30.:48:34.

It is great to follow the honourable member for Durham. Like her, and the

:48:35.:48:42.

right honourable member for Don Valley, I also have three prisons in

:48:43.:48:47.

my constituency. Lalli, Stamford hell and Wales side, which is

:48:48.:48:49.

mentioned in the opposition motion. One of the largest concentration of

:48:50.:48:59.

thousands in the country. I would like to begin by paying tribute to

:49:00.:49:03.

the fantastic men and women who work in the prisons, they are dedicated

:49:04.:49:07.

and hard-working professionals, of whom I am immensely proud. They work

:49:08.:49:12.

in extremely challenging environments, facing on an almost

:49:13.:49:15.

daily basis the threat of violence, with few complaints and a great deal

:49:16.:49:20.

of courage. Mr Deputy Speaker, that threat of violence is growing for

:49:21.:49:23.

all sorts of reasons, some of which we've heard. They include the

:49:24.:49:31.

increase of drugs are smuggled into prisons, often by drones that

:49:32.:49:33.

deliver contraband direct to the cells. Increased alcohol and gang

:49:34.:49:39.

culture in prisons, retribution for of debts, violence for the recovery

:49:40.:49:45.

of stolen contraband and frustration caused by reduction in recreation

:49:46.:49:51.

time because of a shortage of prison officers. That is a fact I am

:49:52.:49:55.

particular concerned with, because unless something is done soon to

:49:56.:50:01.

increase staffing levels, or those other problems I've mentioned will

:50:02.:50:08.

get worse. There's no denying morale among prison staff is low, and

:50:09.:50:11.

that's not surprising when you consider the environment in which

:50:12.:50:14.

prison staff have to work. The police are dealing with people all

:50:15.:50:19.

day but those people are victims of crime or people suspected of crimes,

:50:20.:50:24.

but who turn out to be innocent. The people with whom prison officers

:50:25.:50:29.

deal, have to deal with day in and day out have all been found guilty

:50:30.:50:32.

of a crime, many of them violent crimes. If a police officer is

:50:33.:50:39.

attacked in England the perpetrators are tracked down, prosecuted and if

:50:40.:50:43.

found guilty sent to prison for a lengthy sentence. However if a

:50:44.:50:46.

prison officer is attacked by prisoner, too often in the past the

:50:47.:50:50.

only punishment meted out is withdrawal of privileges. Now I

:50:51.:50:54.

believe prison officer should be treated in exactly the same way as

:50:55.:50:59.

police officers. If a prison at attacks prison officer or another

:51:00.:51:02.

prisoner, I think that person should be tried and if found guilty being

:51:03.:51:09.

given as sentence as if the prison crime is committed outside prison.

:51:10.:51:13.

That sentence should then be added to the sentence prisoner is already

:51:14.:51:18.

serving. I believe what we need now is a

:51:19.:51:22.

proper review of the working conditions and pay structure of

:51:23.:51:26.

prison officers, including perhaps consideration, again, of

:51:27.:51:31.

regionalising pay that recognises the high cost of living in the south

:51:32.:51:36.

of England. And the difficulties in attracting so many people in a job

:51:37.:51:39.

with so many challenges when there is better opportunity available. I

:51:40.:51:44.

believe also the Government needs to re-examine its policy on retirement

:51:45.:51:49.

age of prison officers. It simply unfair that police officers and

:51:50.:51:54.

firefighters are able to retire at 60, where as prison officers are

:51:55.:51:58.

expected to work until they are 68, despite their work being just as

:51:59.:52:03.

physically demanding. Mr Deputy Speaker, my prison

:52:04.:52:06.

officers have a very difficult job, made worse by the ratio of

:52:07.:52:11.

front-line officers to inmates. I would like to set out what the ratio

:52:12.:52:18.

is and I do so by using information from the quarterly workforce

:52:19.:52:21.

bulletin. The key operational grades in public sector prisons are banned

:52:22.:52:29.

3-5 officers. At 30th of September 2016, the last available figure,

:52:30.:52:35.

there were 18,000 3-5 officers in prose. -- imposed. At the same time

:52:36.:52:43.

there are 80,000 prisoners. What are the implications? That 18,000 Band

:52:44.:52:50.

3-5 prison officers, you have to first of all take into account that

:52:51.:52:56.

at any one time about 20% of those officers are off work for one reason

:52:57.:53:00.

or another, because of sickness, court duties or holidays. That

:53:01.:53:05.

leaves a total of 14,000 400. Of those officers only work 37 hours a

:53:06.:53:12.

week. Prisoners are incarcerated 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It

:53:13.:53:15.

takes 4.5 officers to provide continuous cover over the week. That

:53:16.:53:24.

means that any one time there are just 3200 Band three to five

:53:25.:53:28.

officers on front-line duty in prisons in England and Wales. That

:53:29.:53:34.

means that any one time there is only, for each officer on duty, he

:53:35.:53:41.

has to after 25 prisoners. Finally, Mr Speaker, I would like to quickly

:53:42.:53:45.

address the opposition motion before us today. There is much in it with

:53:46.:53:50.

which I cannot disagree, not least because the facts set out in it are

:53:51.:53:54.

cut incontrovertible. Indeed, if the motion and finished on the word

:53:55.:53:59.

odour overcrowded in line seven, I would have been happy to support it.

:54:00.:54:02.

-- overcrowded. But I'm not happy at on calling on the Government to

:54:03.:54:13.

improve overcrowded nurse wasn't... I won't be voting against a Labour

:54:14.:54:15.

motion but I can't support it. It is a pleasure to listen to such

:54:16.:54:27.

an empowered speech, and I would also like the opportunity to take

:54:28.:54:31.

the chance to declare I am the co-chair of the Justice Unions and

:54:32.:54:35.

family courts Parliamentary group. The Ministry of Justice cites three

:54:36.:54:44.

key objectives which underpinned the prison service, to reduce prisoners

:54:45.:54:49.

reoffending and to provide safe establishments in which we treat

:54:50.:54:54.

prisoners humanely, lawfully. Today Wales has four jails housing 3436

:54:55.:55:01.

inmates, 4% of the total prison population in England and Wales. On

:55:02.:55:08.

Monday I visited a prison in North Wales which is due to open next

:55:09.:55:12.

month. This so-called super prison will include Wales' capacity for

:55:13.:55:21.

housing prisoners by 50%. My party does continue to have a number of

:55:22.:55:24.

concerns about this prison, in particular the massive strain it

:55:25.:55:28.

will place North Wales Police, who are expected to face extra staffing

:55:29.:55:32.

costs of ?147,000 a year as a direct result. And at a time when the

:55:33.:55:38.

already underfunded police forces stretch, with limited resources on

:55:39.:55:42.

tight budgets, I must question why is acceptable to expect a local

:55:43.:55:46.

force to foot the Bill for a UK Government project. This super

:55:47.:55:48.

prison is designed first and foremost to meet the needs of

:55:49.:55:52.

north-west England, not that of North Wales, yet the Government

:55:53.:55:56.

insists North Wales Police force are responsible for covering the costs

:55:57.:56:00.

of policing this facility. My reservations about this government's

:56:01.:56:04.

policy on prisons should not be confused with criticism of any kind

:56:05.:56:07.

against the dedicated staff who work in the criminal justice system. I

:56:08.:56:12.

would like to thank operational supervisor Peter Barfoot, with an

:56:13.:56:16.

excellent guide an advocate for this new prison. I was greatly struck by

:56:17.:56:24.

a strong sense that the staff, both experienced for new recruits, were

:56:25.:56:28.

looking forward to contributing to a worthwhile social facility. Two

:56:29.:56:31.

prison officers were forthcoming in explaining they had moved from post

:56:32.:56:34.

to other prisons specifically because of the opportunities that

:56:35.:56:39.

this prison, in terms, and I think this is important, in the quality of

:56:40.:56:43.

the estate, which is a new build, and also, equally important, the

:56:44.:56:49.

offender management objectives of that prison, which looks set to be

:56:50.:56:52.

very innovative and exciting and I'm sure you will be following closely.

:56:53.:56:57.

I will ask the Minister once again to ensure we do not only have the

:56:58.:57:01.

correct staff, in terms of experience and skill, but in

:57:02.:57:04.

language. The prisoners in close proximity to some of the most Welsh

:57:05.:57:07.

speaking regions of Wales and I would want to give the Minister the

:57:08.:57:11.

opportunity to assure the House there will be the appropriate

:57:12.:57:15.

provisions, including the hiring of Welsh speaking staff, to enable the

:57:16.:57:21.

prison to operate effectively. Could the Minister confirmed they will

:57:22.:57:25.

work with the prison to draw up an institution specific Welsh language

:57:26.:57:30.

plan? In Wales, whilst we have the ability to set much of our own

:57:31.:57:33.

health and social policy, our criminal justice system is still

:57:34.:57:36.

dictated from Westminster, which prioritises the needs of England. In

:57:37.:57:40.

order for Wales to truly help people to reintegrate into society and

:57:41.:57:44.

prevent reoffending we must have these powers devolved to the Welsh

:57:45.:57:48.

Assembly. I want to make the request of the Minister. As the Government

:57:49.:57:52.

supposedly committed to decentralisation, and if he or the

:57:53.:57:58.

Secretary of State is committed to reducing reoffending rates, will

:57:59.:58:09.

heel shoe -- he or she reconsider decentralisation? And also at the

:58:10.:58:17.

same time as visibility study in the devolution of the prison service, as

:58:18.:58:22.

recommended by the commission. I want to confine my remarks to the

:58:23.:58:34.

subject of fixed term recall is, which I wish were much more widely

:58:35.:58:38.

understood by the public and in this house, because I think it is one of

:58:39.:58:42.

the biggest outrages of our current prison system and yet hardly anybody

:58:43.:58:46.

knows anything about it at all. Most people in the country believe

:58:47.:58:50.

that when someone is let out of prison early, whether it is halfway

:58:51.:58:53.

through their sentence, a quarter way on home detention curfew or an

:58:54.:58:57.

at some other point before they should be let out, that if they

:58:58.:59:00.

reoffend breach their licence conditions they should go back to

:59:01.:59:04.

prison to serve the rest of the original sentence at the very least.

:59:05.:59:07.

Unfortunately this is not often the case. In reality the overwhelming

:59:08.:59:12.

majority of the public believe the offender should serve the whole

:59:13.:59:18.

sentence in prison. 82% of those asked in a survey carried out by

:59:19.:59:25.

Lord Ashcroft thought prison should see the whole prison sentence

:59:26.:59:28.

carried out. This is not rocket science but common sense. But fixed

:59:29.:59:33.

term recall is introduced to reduce the pressure on prison places in

:59:34.:59:36.

2008, and I don't think many people know about what's happening.

:59:37.:59:40.

A fixed term recall is where the offender breaches their licence or

:59:41.:59:43.

reoffend is an return to prison for a mere 28 days. Not for the rest of

:59:44.:59:49.

their prison term, not even for most of it, for just 28 days.

:59:50.:59:55.

When fixed term recall is why introduce, they excluded certain

:59:56.:59:59.

offenders. But my right honourable friend the rush breath when he was

:00:00.:00:03.

Lord Chancellor, in his bid to reduce the prison population

:00:04.:00:06.

further, relax the rules by way of a change in the legal aid sentencing

:00:07.:00:12.

and punishing act 22. So as of the 3rd of December 2012, fixed term

:00:13.:00:15.

recall that were made available to previously denied prisoners. These

:00:16.:00:20.

were offenders serving a sentence for certain violent or sexual

:00:21.:00:24.

offences. Those subject to a home detention curfew, and in my opinion

:00:25.:00:28.

most shockingly, those who had already been given a fixed term

:00:29.:00:31.

recall for breaching their licence in the same sentence. I don't think

:00:32.:00:36.

many people out in the country know that. I certainly know that many

:00:37.:00:39.

people out in the country won't like it.

:00:40.:00:44.

These fixed term recourse aren't just happening in occasional cases,

:00:45.:00:50.

in 2013-14 they were given to 40% of all offenders who were recalled, and

:00:51.:00:56.

in 2015 to 28%. That's an awful lot of people only going back to prison

:00:57.:01:00.

for 28 days instead of the rest of their sentence, and fees 28 day

:01:01.:01:04.

recalls were laid only the sentences of one year or more, so were talking

:01:05.:01:09.

about the most serious of offenders, their 14 day recall is applied to

:01:10.:01:12.

shorter sentences but they are a much more recent concept. The more I

:01:13.:01:17.

have investigated the whole issue of 28 day fixed term recourse and the

:01:18.:01:20.

more figures that have been released, more disturbing things

:01:21.:01:27.

have become clear. In 2014, 7486 prisoners were recalled for just 28

:01:28.:01:32.

days. Of those, 3166 had been charged with a further offence. That

:01:33.:01:38.

means there were 3166 people charged with a further offence when they

:01:39.:01:42.

should have been in prison in the first place, who then escaped

:01:43.:01:46.

serving the original sentence despite committing be further

:01:47.:01:49.

offence. The vast majority of these had 15 or more previous convictions.

:01:50.:02:02.

The most common is burglary. So over half of these being given this

:02:03.:02:05.

pathetic slap on the risk were people who had committed this very

:02:06.:02:10.

serious crime. They were also given to people convicted of manslaughter,

:02:11.:02:13.

attempted homicide wounding, rape and robbery. Perhaps the icing on

:02:14.:02:19.

the case in this whole sorry state of affairs is that in 2015 816

:02:20.:02:27.

offenders were allowed more than one fixed term recall for another breach

:02:28.:02:30.

or offence to the same original sentence. So in just three years,

:02:31.:02:35.

3327 of the most serious offenders in our prisons were released from

:02:36.:02:39.

prison, breached their licence, returned to prison for 28 days,

:02:40.:02:44.

released again, and then from a further breach of licence returned

:02:45.:02:47.

to prison for just another 28 days and then released again. This is a

:02:48.:02:52.

complete failure of a policy in my opinion and completely indefensible.

:02:53.:02:57.

I raised this issue yesterday in justice questions and the Minister's

:02:58.:03:02.

dash-mac reply about risk is interesting but this is a very sad

:03:03.:03:06.

joke. These people should not have been released early in the first

:03:07.:03:08.

place as far as I'm concerned, but having been released there should be

:03:09.:03:13.

no other option but to them to be returned to prison for breaching

:03:14.:03:15.

their son since and especially the reoffending for the remainder of the

:03:16.:03:20.

original sentence at the very least. The final thing I want to mention on

:03:21.:03:26.

this is that this week response has become so well-known in the criminal

:03:27.:03:29.

community that some people are taking their chances of getting

:03:30.:03:33.

record, knowing of the punishment is pathetic. That is like a 28 day

:03:34.:03:37.

all-inclusive mini-break. Worse still, some prisoners who have been

:03:38.:03:41.

released deliberately tried to get themselves back into prison to give

:03:42.:03:45.

them enough time to see how their criminal operation in prison is

:03:46.:03:47.

carrying on whilst they are out, knowing that they will only get 28

:03:48.:03:55.

days. This has been confirmed by Manchester University Metropolitan

:03:56.:03:57.

University, where they say prisoners have been able to earn ?3000 in 28

:03:58.:04:03.

days by the bringing in drugs. Other prisoners have said everyone keeps

:04:04.:04:08.

going and coming back on these recalls and bringing more drugs back

:04:09.:04:12.

in with them. This is an absolute farce. The criminals are laughing

:04:13.:04:15.

all the way to the bank whilst nothing is being done to stop this

:04:16.:04:20.

nonsense. When will the Minister get a grip of this thing and end of this

:04:21.:04:28.

fraud on the public? It is a pleasure to follow fellow member of

:04:29.:04:31.

the Justice committee the member for Shipley. He has raised this issue

:04:32.:04:35.

before I'm sure, but by the time the minister comes the reply he would

:04:36.:04:41.

have got a grip on this matter, and announced some changes that will

:04:42.:04:45.

satisfy the honourable general -- gentleman. If not, then it will be

:04:46.:04:48.

raised again not just on the Justice committee but also in the house. In

:04:49.:04:53.

the short time that I have available, I want to raise just one

:04:54.:04:58.

issue, which is the issue of foreign national prisoners. I agree

:04:59.:05:02.

wholeheartedly with what has been said by other right honourable

:05:03.:05:05.

members about the crisis in our prisons, and indeed if we are

:05:06.:05:10.

thinking about having a club of ex-ministers, I indeed was an

:05:11.:05:14.

ex-minister in the Lord Chancellor's department, but prisons at that

:05:15.:05:18.

stage was at the Home Office, so I take no responsibility for what has

:05:19.:05:22.

happened in the past. But maybe a seminar of ex-prisons minister is

:05:23.:05:26.

chaired by the honourable member for Hexham from the author of that

:05:27.:05:32.

definitive book, and maybe we can come to the solutions or memos of

:05:33.:05:35.

this house would like to see adopted to try to bring this crisis to an

:05:36.:05:39.

end. Going back to foreign national prisoners, and I am delighted that

:05:40.:05:42.

the prisons minister is chairing the task force, we want to hear more

:05:43.:05:46.

about this, because it remains a mystery to me why 12% of the prison

:05:47.:05:56.

population happens to be people who are foreign national figures, and of

:05:57.:06:03.

that figure half that number, 4000 plus, are from EU countries. Bearing

:06:04.:06:10.

in mind we are still a member of the European Union for the next two

:06:11.:06:15.

years, I find it extraordinary that we are not able to send more foreign

:06:16.:06:20.

national prisoners from our prisons. After all, what is the point of

:06:21.:06:24.

undertaking negotiations signing transfer agreements with EU

:06:25.:06:29.

colleagues, and they are unable to take back their citizens. So I think

:06:30.:06:34.

it is a priority for this government to ensure that in the two years

:06:35.:06:39.

available before Brexit that we will insure that citizens of that

:06:40.:06:46.

country, from countries like Poland and Romania who are top of the list,

:06:47.:06:50.

should be returned back. I was surprised at the last committee

:06:51.:06:56.

hearing to hear the Minister's chief Officer Michael spirt of the

:06:57.:07:14.

decided 130 should have been sent back and they had not. As the

:07:15.:07:22.

Minister and the house knows, the derogation for Poland ended on 31st

:07:23.:07:25.

of December. When he comes the reply I hope he will tell us that this

:07:26.:07:28.

matter is now being looked at very carefully, that prisoners are being

:07:29.:07:30.

transferred. I am glad that a record number were removed last year, but

:07:31.:07:33.

the headline figure was so low that practically any additional figures

:07:34.:07:37.

becomes a record. We need to do much, much better than we are doing

:07:38.:07:42.

at the moment. Recently, of course, we hear that under the agreement

:07:43.:07:48.

that has been made with Albania, only 17 Albanian prisoners have been

:07:49.:07:53.

transferred from our prisons. It is not that we are against foreign

:07:54.:07:56.

national prisoners, we are just in favour of them being able to serve

:07:57.:08:01.

their sentence in their countries of origin. If that happens, it will

:08:02.:08:07.

reduce the prison population by a 10,000 and it will save the taxpayer

:08:08.:08:12.

?169 million, so I hope very much that when the Minister comes the

:08:13.:08:17.

reply he will give us some new information, which will encourage

:08:18.:08:21.

the house to believe that this issue is being taken very seriously. Thank

:08:22.:08:27.

you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I start by declaring an interest as a

:08:28.:08:30.

trustee of the Butler trust, which is an organisation, which seeks to

:08:31.:08:38.

improve the skills of prison officers across the country, and to

:08:39.:08:42.

share best practice, and I have the pleasure to serve as a trustee,

:08:43.:08:47.

alongside PJ McFarlane, who is a former chairman, a very

:08:48.:08:50.

distinguished chairman of the prison officers Association with whom I'm

:08:51.:08:54.

very proud to be a fellow trustee. I am very pleased that the Ministry of

:08:55.:09:00.

Justice has managed to secure the funding to recruit an extra 2500

:09:01.:09:05.

prison officers and I start by paying tribute to the work that they

:09:06.:09:11.

do, date in and day out. They are an outstanding group of public servants

:09:12.:09:15.

whose work is unfortunately not as well known, and well appreciated, as

:09:16.:09:24.

it should be. The move towards more autonomous collisions will help

:09:25.:09:31.

local communities appreciate more fully the sterling work that prison

:09:32.:09:37.

officers do day in and day out. I also want to make sure in terms of

:09:38.:09:41.

safety that prison officers are always supported as well as possible

:09:42.:09:49.

by good local police associations. Annika Beck there would effectively

:09:50.:09:55.

and in my time as prison officer, I felt that the corporation between

:09:56.:10:00.

police forces and local prisons ferried around the country. It needs

:10:01.:10:06.

to be good. The reason that this is so important

:10:07.:10:20.

is not only because the British taxpayer is paying for this, but if

:10:21.:10:26.

we could reduce 9000 prisoners in our prisons would give us the head

:10:27.:10:30.

room, a flexibility to do rehabilitation better across our

:10:31.:10:36.

prisons, and that is what again on both sides of this house we are so

:10:37.:10:41.

keen to see. It is very much the focus of the White Paper, which I

:10:42.:10:46.

was delighted to see published in November. One of the issues I'm very

:10:47.:10:52.

pleased the Ministry of Justice is taking forward is the farmer review

:10:53.:10:56.

on prisoners families. I believe strong families are essential to

:10:57.:10:59.

strong communities across our country, they are engines of social

:11:00.:11:04.

mobility, and they matter very much for prisoners for lots of practical

:11:05.:11:09.

reasons. We know that if a prisoner's relationship or marriage

:11:10.:11:12.

doesn't fall apart, they are more likely to have somewhere to live

:11:13.:11:15.

when they come out prison, they are also more likely to get into work,

:11:16.:11:19.

so I strongly welcome the Ministry of Justice's support for the review.

:11:20.:11:25.

The continuing emphasis on education is excellent, with a greater focus

:11:26.:11:30.

on testing and making sure there is improvement. Yes, of course I'll

:11:31.:11:36.

give way. Thank you forgiving way. In relation to education, yesterday

:11:37.:11:40.

there was an event organised here by the cultural learning allowance. --

:11:41.:11:45.

Alliance. My sister is a member of that alliance, have to declare. The

:11:46.:11:50.

most recent research includes research that shows young offenders

:11:51.:11:57.

take part in our arts activities are 18% less likely to reoffend, which

:11:58.:12:03.

is of huge benefit to the public and to the prisoners's families as well.

:12:04.:12:06.

Would you agree it is important that we invest in arts education in

:12:07.:12:11.

prisons? Yes, weather is clear evidence that it reduce the

:12:12.:12:20.

reoffending, she is right to raise that issue. One phrase never like to

:12:21.:12:25.

hear was that prisoners were being taken to education. I think

:12:26.:12:28.

education should run across the whole prison, on the wings, in the

:12:29.:12:38.

landings, in prisoners cells. I commend what is happening in

:12:39.:12:41.

Wandsworth where the inspirational governor Ian Vickers is taking 50

:12:42.:12:45.

prisoners who have level three qualifications, paying them, giving

:12:46.:12:49.

them a uniform, they can lose their job if they don't perform well, and

:12:50.:12:54.

getting them to work alongside those doing education in prison to spread

:12:55.:12:58.

lending across the prison. That is an excellent initiative. The focus

:12:59.:13:04.

on work and training in prisons that will lead to a job on release is apt

:13:05.:13:13.

salute the right. Prison apprenticeships, which will carry on

:13:14.:13:20.

we often hear name checked the employers that do the right thing

:13:21.:13:27.

and take on ex-offenders that play fair by everyone to reduce

:13:28.:13:30.

reoffending to keep everyone safe, but I have to tell the house there

:13:31.:13:33.

are a number of employers, and a number of very well-known national

:13:34.:13:38.

employers, who do not take on ex-offenders as a matter of policy.

:13:39.:13:43.

I am not going to name and shame them today, because I am in

:13:44.:13:48.

correspondence and dialogue with them, and I hope that quiet

:13:49.:13:51.

persuasion will lead to them doing the right thing, but just as we name

:13:52.:13:55.

checked those who do well, I put on notice those who don't do the right

:13:56.:14:00.

thing, that there will come a time when we will call them out and urge

:14:01.:14:06.

them to do better in this area. I was pleased to hear from the

:14:07.:14:10.

Secretary of State that in April she will be saying more about probation,

:14:11.:14:14.

and we need high standards for probation. I pay tribute to our

:14:15.:14:19.

probation officers again, a very dedicated group of public servants.

:14:20.:14:24.

They need to work hand in glove with prison officers, I know the

:14:25.:14:27.

Secretary of State and the prisons probation Minister will make sure

:14:28.:14:31.

that that does happen, and in particular and want to see probation

:14:32.:14:34.

officers making sure that the emphasis on education and on

:14:35.:14:39.

employment that is taking place in prison carries on during the

:14:40.:14:46.

probationary period, making sure that work focus continues, that the

:14:47.:14:50.

ex-offenders attending the local college for example. That will take

:14:51.:14:52.

us forward and addict grimly important.

:14:53.:14:57.

Can I just give a warning, I need to drop the limit to four minutes after

:14:58.:15:04.

the next speaker. Thank you. I would like to repeat

:15:05.:15:08.

what we've heard from many other honourable members, the tribute of

:15:09.:15:11.

all of us in this house to the work people in the prison service do.

:15:12.:15:15.

They take on an incredibly difficult task and we are incredibly grateful

:15:16.:15:19.

to them for the work they do. It was brought home to me when I took up a

:15:20.:15:25.

challenge from my honourable friend from Ealing North, about visiting a

:15:26.:15:30.

prison. I visited Nottingham prison. I would encourage all of us to do

:15:31.:15:34.

so, so any MPs voting in this debate who haven't been around a prison,

:15:35.:15:39.

are doing so from a position of ignorance. In listening to the

:15:40.:15:42.

speech of the Secretary of State today, I have to say there is much

:15:43.:15:46.

in the rhetoric I heard that I would support. Much of what she was saying

:15:47.:15:49.

about the issues and challenges facing the prison service we would

:15:50.:15:54.

all agree with, but I have to say, her vision of what was going on and

:15:55.:15:56.

the policies of this government there little relationship to the

:15:57.:16:04.

experiences prison officers actually have.

:16:05.:16:06.

Criticism was made by the honourable member from Rushcliffe of the

:16:07.:16:11.

motion. And whilst we recognise there many other aspects to than

:16:12.:16:15.

simply those in the motion, it seems there is little to disagree with in

:16:16.:16:21.

terms of what is in the motion. Four friends of mine have worked in

:16:22.:16:26.

recent years at a prison in Doncaster, two have recently been

:16:27.:16:29.

retired medical grounds, one is off sick at the moment and whilst this

:16:30.:16:35.

debate refers rightly to the overall reduction in prison officers, what

:16:36.:16:39.

isn't so much being focused on is the deliberate strategy of replacing

:16:40.:16:42.

experienced prison officers with cheap replacements, and people right

:16:43.:16:48.

at the start of their career. I think it's an extremely dangerous

:16:49.:16:51.

policy. My honourable friend from Leeds has spoken about private

:16:52.:16:54.

prisons but this is also happening in the Government estate. One of my

:16:55.:16:59.

friends that worked in Doncaster left the service, was assaulted

:17:00.:17:03.

three times in a six-month period, once very seriously indeed. On the

:17:04.:17:07.

first occasion he was encouraged to telephone the staff welfare hotline.

:17:08.:17:11.

On the third occasion when he found he was told he had used the hotline

:17:12.:17:15.

too many times and was actually allowed to use time to get any

:17:16.:17:19.

support, after a very serious assault on him at work. Another

:17:20.:17:23.

friend in the service told me how he needs a knee replacement operation

:17:24.:17:26.

that has cancelled the operation because he believes if he takes time

:17:27.:17:29.

off to get his knee repaired he will be sacked on the capability grounds.

:17:30.:17:35.

He specifically asked me why experienced prison officers felt too

:17:36.:17:38.

intimidated to get the medical treatment that they actually needed.

:17:39.:17:44.

Another friend who has worked in the service for 25 years left last year.

:17:45.:17:47.

He said when he started there were 12 prison officers for 90 prisoners,

:17:48.:17:52.

now just three prison officers are there. Three prison officers may be

:17:53.:17:55.

adequate when things are quiet and everything is going OK, but it

:17:56.:18:00.

leaves too little time to engage on rehabilitating the way prison

:18:01.:18:03.

officers want to do. But when a prisoner takes a phone call at five

:18:04.:18:07.

to eight, saying his wife is leaving him or his children have been taken

:18:08.:18:11.

away by social services, need support on the prison officers

:18:12.:18:15.

stepped in and do an incredibly important task. When those resources

:18:16.:18:19.

aren't there, whether it be a moment of crisis in a prisoner's life or to

:18:20.:18:25.

prevent fights or simply support prisoners to consider what courses

:18:26.:18:29.

they might do I go down the route of rehabilitation, a vital chance is

:18:30.:18:32.

lost to help a prisoner back onto the right path. That sense prison

:18:33.:18:38.

officers no longer feel is incredibly important role in our

:18:39.:18:42.

society, is for filling in the way it once was, is something that

:18:43.:18:46.

should concern us all. When prisoners start to consider

:18:47.:18:49.

that no one is interested in them, that's when we see the sort of

:18:50.:18:52.

violent episodes that we've seen recently and there's not enough

:18:53.:18:59.

being done to prevent reoffending. It is a fact that experienced prison

:19:00.:19:02.

officers also crucial to the development of new staff. Managers

:19:03.:19:07.

in prison much less experience than they once were. I wonder what chance

:19:08.:19:12.

the new ?19,000 prison apprentices have, put into overcrowded prisons

:19:13.:19:16.

with disillusioned and inexperienced prison officers, where the mentoring

:19:17.:19:21.

that once would have been there for new staff is unfair. Are we just

:19:22.:19:24.

setting up to fail? I support the motion in the name of

:19:25.:19:30.

right honourable friend but I would go further and say unless government

:19:31.:19:33.

recognises why the riots are happening and not only stops its

:19:34.:19:38.

deliberate attempt to chuck experienced officers out of the

:19:39.:19:43.

system to save money but implement a strategy to retain those experienced

:19:44.:19:46.

staff and see them as central to the success of the recruitment of the

:19:47.:19:49.

new generation of prison officers, then not only will these problems

:19:50.:19:53.

continue to escalate, but our prisons and society will pay a very

:19:54.:19:56.

heavy price for that failure Iniesta,. -- in years to come. Simon

:19:57.:20:08.

Hall. I hope I won't take any more time

:20:09.:20:15.

than four minutes. And you forgot my name, I shall edit my Christmas card

:20:16.:20:21.

list and I get back to the office. It is an honour to follow my

:20:22.:20:25.

honourable friend from Chesterfield, and I agree with him on the member

:20:26.:20:30.

of Ealing North, that it should be a requirement of all of us to visit

:20:31.:20:34.

prison so we can see things done on the ground where we have them in our

:20:35.:20:39.

constituencies. I have a prison in my constituency, which I have

:20:40.:20:43.

visited now on a number of occasions. So many times the

:20:44.:20:46.

prisoners and I seem to be on first name terms. I have seen the

:20:47.:20:51.

excellent work that the prison officers Association do with the

:20:52.:20:56.

staff, with the prisoners, and where the voluntary sector gets involved.

:20:57.:21:06.

That's a session preparing prisoners to get skills, get their CV is

:21:07.:21:10.

right, to get them equipped for work, and working alongside that

:21:11.:21:14.

charity with a number of national businesses, reflecting on what my

:21:15.:21:16.

honourable friend from Bedford just said, who are keen to take

:21:17.:21:20.

ex-offenders on when they have finished their sentences. Will my

:21:21.:21:23.

honourable friend give way? I'm glad you mentioned volunteers. Would he

:21:24.:21:27.

agree we should salute the work of volunteers who go into our prisons

:21:28.:21:31.

across the country to work alongside prison officers? I agree

:21:32.:21:43.

with my honourable friend, if for no other reason bar the fact it says to

:21:44.:21:47.

those prisoners that society hasn't forgotten about the man hasn't

:21:48.:21:50.

dismiss them out of hand, that they still see them as potentially

:21:51.:21:52.

productive part of the community when they come back. There were two

:21:53.:21:55.

things I wish to talk about today, which I hope the Minister will pay

:21:56.:21:56.

attention to. The first is in very specific

:21:57.:21:59.

relation to my prison, which the Ministry of Justice team will no,

:22:00.:22:03.

because it was in the media relatively recently and has had

:22:04.:22:09.

problems. I make a brief comment, if I may, about the robustness of

:22:10.:22:15.

Karelian as the contractor. Contracts have two sides that to

:22:16.:22:19.

that particular point. The first is clearly on the company which is

:22:20.:22:24.

contracted to deliver the service, to deliver that service. The other

:22:25.:22:30.

side of the coin is for the person who lets the contract to monitor a

:22:31.:22:34.

bubbly and enforce what is required from it. I remain to be convinced

:22:35.:22:45.

that Corillian is up to the job and that as the manager of the contract,

:22:46.:22:50.

that they have done the job it is required to do. I don't take a

:22:51.:22:56.

private sector good, public sector bad or vice versa but sometimes I

:22:57.:23:00.

think some of these companies contracted to do this very important

:23:01.:23:03.

work do need to raise their game. I've spoken to the Minister about

:23:04.:23:09.

that and I know he and the Lord Chancellor is receptive to the case.

:23:10.:23:12.

Madame Debord is bigger, yesterday I was called at justice questions to

:23:13.:23:18.

talk about recruitment, an issue that has dominated the debate today.

:23:19.:23:21.

In response to my question my honourable friend the Prisons

:23:22.:23:27.

Minister replied that guys Marsh has been made a priority prison, which

:23:28.:23:31.

means the governor is getting extra resorts in addition to our national

:23:32.:23:34.

campaign effort to recruit the staffing needs. Of itself that is

:23:35.:23:39.

excellent news. I thank the Minister for it, I welcome it, as does the

:23:40.:23:46.

governor, but as I pressed in my question, and I make no apologises

:23:47.:23:50.

for pressing again today. Having a prison in a rural area presents

:23:51.:23:54.

problems when it comes to recruitment. The cost of our housing

:23:55.:24:01.

is higher. Public transport scarce. We find our unemployment rate is

:24:02.:24:08.

very low, we only have about 300 people on JS say in North Dorset. So

:24:09.:24:14.

in that recruitment drive, can I urge ministers to ensure that there

:24:15.:24:18.

is flexibility and scope for innovation? That could be providing

:24:19.:24:24.

help for a new prison officer to get a vehicle or motorbike will

:24:25.:24:28.

something to be able to get to and from the prison. It may be helped

:24:29.:24:33.

with relocation or housing costs, some form of grant to help pay for a

:24:34.:24:39.

deposit, a loner or whatever. I also think the terms and conditions could

:24:40.:24:43.

be looked at. I appreciate this is a sensitive area but I would hope that

:24:44.:24:47.

the POA would support something such as that, if the endgame to deliver

:24:48.:24:54.

more prison officers into those prisons, to make the regime and

:24:55.:24:57.

atmosphere much safer for Basta. I also encourage him to work more

:24:58.:25:03.

closely with the MOD. -- safer for their staff. A very fertile

:25:04.:25:12.

recruiting ground for new prison officers.

:25:13.:25:21.

Peter Heaton Harris. I'm sorry, you've conflated two

:25:22.:25:26.

honourable members of this house. I am very closely related to the

:25:27.:25:30.

honourable member but not he. Is it me you intended?

:25:31.:25:34.

Peter Heaton Jones. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. The

:25:35.:25:44.

prisons system faces many challenges, but the Government is

:25:45.:25:47.

taking, I think an enormous steps to address them. We have heard some

:25:48.:25:53.

them today. The investment extra investment of ?1.3 billion to reform

:25:54.:25:57.

and modernise the prison estate is front and centre in the white paper

:25:58.:26:02.

which was published in October of last year. Nonetheless, the prison

:26:03.:26:08.

system does face challenges. I was very taken by the comments of my

:26:09.:26:13.

right honourable and Bernard friend, the member of Rushcliffe, towards

:26:14.:26:17.

the beginning of this debate, when he said nobody on either side of

:26:18.:26:22.

this house would deny the fact there are serious challenges faced by the

:26:23.:26:25.

prison service. That is absolutely the case. I welcome what is in the

:26:26.:26:31.

white paper. I've already mentioned the 1.3 billion to reform our modern

:26:32.:26:35.

eyes the prison estate, which I greatly welcome. As I do the fact

:26:36.:26:41.

that we are now recruiting 2500 front line officers. -- and

:26:42.:26:44.

modernise the prison estate. I was pleased to hear the Lord Chancellor

:26:45.:26:48.

say at the beginning of debate that the further commitment, which was to

:26:49.:26:53.

recruit, to fast track 400 new prison officers into ten of our most

:26:54.:27:01.

challenging prisons by the end of March, that we are already more on

:27:02.:27:06.

track and I think the figure of 389 was mentioned as to the number of

:27:07.:27:10.

appointments that have already been made under that scheme, which I

:27:11.:27:13.

think is excellent news. I want to go on in the time

:27:14.:27:19.

remaining to discuss the points that just concerns me, that is that of

:27:20.:27:23.

security. I have had discussions with ministers on this in the past.

:27:24.:27:29.

In particular the issue around the growing problems of drones being

:27:30.:27:33.

used to deliver drugs, contraband, mobile phones and various other

:27:34.:27:39.

matters into prisons. I've actually long held the view that we haven't

:27:40.:27:45.

quite, as a society, as a community, maybe as a government, grasped the

:27:46.:27:49.

difficulties that drones are now giving us and the explosion in the

:27:50.:27:54.

number of people who own them, quite apart from the security matters in

:27:55.:27:59.

prisons, we've seen the all four cases of near misses with aircraft.

:28:00.:28:03.

I think we need to tackle this. And as part of this problem of security

:28:04.:28:07.

in prisons, I think that is something we need to look at very

:28:08.:28:10.

seriously. I know there are practical measures being taken, such

:28:11.:28:15.

basic things such as netting being put up to prevent things being

:28:16.:28:18.

dropped. I think we need to look at that more carefully, and the issue

:28:19.:28:22.

of drones overall. The other one that does concern me

:28:23.:28:28.

is this continued challenge that we have, with the misuse of mobile

:28:29.:28:33.

phones, with the delivery of mobile phones into prisons using, what I

:28:34.:28:40.

understand it are, increasingly ingenious methods. I don't use that

:28:41.:28:44.

word as praise just that there are new ways being found all the time to

:28:45.:28:47.

deliver mobile phones into prisons. We do have to stop those and we have

:28:48.:28:52.

to do that using practical, hard measures. But I do say this. I think

:28:53.:28:57.

the mobile phone industry has a responsibility here as well. I think

:28:58.:29:02.

there is more they need to do technically, to work with us, to

:29:03.:29:07.

work with the prison authorities, to ensure there are ways blocking

:29:08.:29:11.

mobile phone signals. There is more that can be done. I know only too

:29:12.:29:17.

well that there are many places who don't have mobile phone signals.

:29:18.:29:22.

That is unintentional. I'm sure there is a technical way we can ask

:29:23.:29:27.

the mobile phone operators to take responsibility and to make sure

:29:28.:29:30.

those blackspots are there intentionally, to stop them getting

:29:31.:29:34.

into prisons. I will be supporting the Government's Amendment and I

:29:35.:29:37.

praise the work that's being done and I welcome Paper.

:29:38.:29:44.

Victoria Prentice. It is a pleasure to follow the

:29:45.:29:48.

member for North Devon and indeed one of the most exciting parts of

:29:49.:29:51.

the Secretary of State's speech for me was when she mentioned the pilots

:29:52.:29:56.

on blocking mobile phone signals in prisons. Mobile phones increase the

:29:57.:29:59.

number of organised crime that can be carried out on a daily basis in

:30:00.:30:03.

prison and is critical we deal with this. It is also a pleasure to

:30:04.:30:08.

follow a number of distinguished exes this afternoon who have given

:30:09.:30:14.

fantastic ideas, aren't we lucky? We don't have to recall them as the

:30:15.:30:19.

member of Shipley would like us to believe, in order to benefit from

:30:20.:30:22.

the brilliance of the ideas that they all came up with to improve the

:30:23.:30:28.

serious situation on the safety of our prisons.

:30:29.:30:33.

The Justice committee reported in May 2016, and we urge the government

:30:34.:30:40.

as my honourable colleague mentioned earlier to act quickly on prison

:30:41.:30:45.

safety. It's clear from everything that has been said this afternoon,

:30:46.:30:48.

not least from the Secretary of State, that the emoji is bursting

:30:49.:30:54.

with ideas. The Justice committee welcomes the White Paper. Due cause

:30:55.:30:57.

we will scrutinise and probably welcome a great deal of the police

:30:58.:31:03.

and the bill we have been drip fed negative of this afternoon of what

:31:04.:31:07.

is coming. But in order to do our job of holding the department to

:31:08.:31:11.

account, we do need adequate information. On 29th November, the

:31:12.:31:16.

prisons minister was kind enough to come before Oscar Ouma and said he

:31:17.:31:21.

would give 's monthly performance on safety indicators. We haven't had

:31:22.:31:24.

these, despite chasing, and I urge him once again to produce these as

:31:25.:31:32.

soon as possible. We need it. We have also welcomed the extra money

:31:33.:31:37.

that is being given to our prisons. We know a fit of that will be spent

:31:38.:31:43.

on staff, we welcome that but we need more information about where

:31:44.:31:46.

the rest of that money will be going. We need to know if this

:31:47.:31:58.

works. We need the data to be able to assess that. I understand the

:31:59.:32:02.

frustration of the department, with those of us who say reducing prison

:32:03.:32:07.

numbers is the solution to their problems. My own ideas on who the

:32:08.:32:15.

release, and this is not the committee's ideas, I stress, many of

:32:16.:32:21.

which have been mentioned would include IPP prisoners, foreign

:32:22.:32:24.

national prisoners, though we know it isn't as easy as all that. Women

:32:25.:32:30.

prisoners and their trends have very low reoffending rates but that is

:32:31.:32:33.

tinkering around the edges of the large prison population at the

:32:34.:32:38.

moment. If we can't recruit, as I except the department is trying

:32:39.:32:41.

desperately hard to, would the minister commit today to at least

:32:42.:32:46.

considering whether we should have a shift in the sentencing framework, a

:32:47.:32:53.

shift as the member for Surrey Heath mentioned to community-based

:32:54.:32:55.

alternatives? And the other issue that I would ask him to consider is

:32:56.:33:00.

that we desperately need more secure mental health beds in order that we

:33:01.:33:09.

can screen prisoners immediately on reception in the prison and divert

:33:10.:33:12.

them to the best place for them to be. None of us on the Justice

:33:13.:33:14.

committee think that the prisons minister has an easy job, and we do

:33:15.:33:19.

welcome many of the reforms that the government has set out recently, but

:33:20.:33:24.

we need the data to do our job in holding him to account. It is a

:33:25.:33:30.

pleasure to contribute to this debate. I remember when I was first

:33:31.:33:34.

elected a member of Parliament being taken to the police station to a

:33:35.:33:41.

room where there were 18 faces on the wall, and the police officer

:33:42.:33:46.

said of course when a large number of these people are on the mind or

:33:47.:33:52.

in prison, crime goes down. And when they're not, the opposite happens. I

:33:53.:33:58.

served as a magistrate for six years in Westminster, and though we had

:33:59.:34:01.

very strict guidelines, we listened very carefully to the excellent

:34:02.:34:06.

probation officer before we gave sentencing, obviously, I was always

:34:07.:34:13.

aware that we were making a judgment that I would not know the outcome

:34:14.:34:19.

of, and a few years ago I had the opportunity to visit the Amber

:34:20.:34:23.

foundation in Exeter, a very worthwhile charity that has a number

:34:24.:34:26.

of sites dealing with ex-offenders, giving them a pathway back to full

:34:27.:34:35.

citizenship. I want to use the time available this afternoon to talk

:34:36.:34:40.

about the importance of education, because education and rehabilitation

:34:41.:34:45.

have to be the major focus of the department, because actually unless

:34:46.:34:50.

we get this right we are actually in this awful cycle of putting people

:34:51.:34:53.

away, having them come out and go back in, and the impact on crime

:34:54.:34:58.

levels and on those individuals for the rest of their lives is very

:34:59.:35:04.

poor. I hope that the government will continue their ambition to give

:35:05.:35:08.

real autonomy to prison governors so that we can ensure programmes

:35:09.:35:11.

offered in place are the ones that work for their institution and can

:35:12.:35:16.

command authority to drive real change. But we also need to be

:35:17.:35:21.

realistic about the complexity involved in reforming prison

:35:22.:35:27.

education. I would like the minister to talk about what

:35:28.:35:36.

I am pleased to hear about apprenticeships but given that so

:35:37.:35:43.

many will have learning difficulties and no formal education, will he

:35:44.:35:50.

allow prisoners to have increased pay, time out of cells, or even

:35:51.:35:56.

early release in exceptional places. We must contemplate radical policy

:35:57.:36:00.

options if we are going to see a step change in this area. I would

:36:01.:36:05.

also ask the minister what is his department's view for the balance

:36:06.:36:10.

between providing holistic education focused on developing potential,

:36:11.:36:19.

including the arts but also basic literacy and programmes focused on

:36:20.:36:21.

local labour market outcomes after prison. Will he give sufficient

:36:22.:36:25.

autonomy to local governors on this issue? But we need to bear in mind

:36:26.:36:32.

that a very high proportion of prisoners will have the special

:36:33.:36:35.

educational needs, and will need individual attention, and this will

:36:36.:36:43.

be expensive. What plans does the government have to help with the

:36:44.:36:46.

recruitment of those with the specialist skills to work in what

:36:47.:36:52.

will be a very challenging sector? I welcome the announcement around

:36:53.:36:56.

investment in more resources, but let's not be under any illusions in

:36:57.:37:00.

this house about how complex this challenge is. So I hope the Minister

:37:01.:37:04.

when he responds will give some detail here come and I congratulate

:37:05.:37:09.

the government on getting to grips with many of these issues, and the

:37:10.:37:12.

original thinking I am seeing from the dispatch box. It is a pleasure

:37:13.:37:18.

to follow the member for Salisbury, and with his permission I would like

:37:19.:37:21.

to focus very parochially on Bedford, as it is mentioned in the

:37:22.:37:27.

motion, and to start if I may buy commending the Minister on the

:37:28.:37:32.

afternoon and evening of the disturbance in Bedford, he managed,

:37:33.:37:36.

notwithstanding the responsibilities that he had to recover the

:37:37.:37:40.

situation, to keep me as a member of Parliament fully informed

:37:41.:37:42.

throughout. As the honourable member for Reigate mentioned, this is a

:37:43.:37:47.

hallmark of this particular minister and I am grateful to him. Since that

:37:48.:37:51.

disturbance, that had prison has been recovered and rebuilt. I would

:37:52.:37:56.

ask the minister, as I have been nice to him, if he would also meet

:37:57.:38:01.

with him to discuss the small investment that has been pending for

:38:02.:38:06.

Bedford prison that could make a substantial difference there? I

:38:07.:38:08.

would also like to talk about the issue of accountability, one of the

:38:09.:38:14.

issues leading up to Bedford, there were 72 recommendations by the

:38:15.:38:17.

inspectorate, of which two years later only 12 had been enacted. The

:38:18.:38:22.

governor who has recently returned to her position, I have every

:38:23.:38:27.

confidence she will find remedies to those problems, but perhaps the

:38:28.:38:30.

Minister could address in his remarks how in future does he see as

:38:31.:38:33.

governors are given more accountability how they themselves

:38:34.:38:37.

will be held to account, but in particular in Bedford prison we have

:38:38.:38:41.

an excellent IMB, what will be their role across the country, in terms of

:38:42.:38:45.

accountability? May I also say on the issue of prison officers, we

:38:46.:38:50.

have mentioned very frequently both in terms of numbers and in terms of

:38:51.:38:53.

pay that having spoken to a number of members of the prison officers

:38:54.:38:59.

anonymously after the disturbance, it is clear that two other issues

:39:00.:39:03.

have been bought out. Firstly it is not just about pay, it is also about

:39:04.:39:07.

prestige of the profession. Many members have made very strong

:39:08.:39:12.

confidence to that today, but too often the prison officers are seen

:39:13.:39:15.

as the nearly force, not quite held in the same regard. I would just

:39:16.:39:19.

commend the Minister that there are probably a number of things he could

:39:20.:39:22.

do on the issue of prestige as well as pay that could make a difference,

:39:23.:39:28.

and also I talked about the importance of the issue of

:39:29.:39:32.

experience. There has been a downgrading of the age range of

:39:33.:39:35.

which people can be brought into the prison officer corps, but that has a

:39:36.:39:39.

knock-on effect, in terms of confidence and teamwork when put in

:39:40.:39:44.

a very difficult situation. And finally, as last year was the 150th

:39:45.:39:48.

anniversary of the Howard league, named after a former high Sheriff of

:39:49.:39:53.

John Howard, can I reinforce the comments that have been made about

:39:54.:39:56.

the attention being paid to suicides in prison? This is a pertinent

:39:57.:40:00.

issue, I would be interested what he said. That their 150th anniversary,

:40:01.:40:04.

I said the Howard league were the essential irritant to government on

:40:05.:40:09.

prison reform. Having listened to the opposition today, I have to say

:40:10.:40:12.

unfortunately the Labour Party had absolutely nothing, in terms of

:40:13.:40:18.

positive suggestions, and I hope the Minister himself will do much better

:40:19.:40:25.

in his contributions. Can I start my paying tribute to all prison

:40:26.:40:30.

officers in the country who do a fantastic and difficult and often

:40:31.:40:33.

dangerous job, particularly prison officers in my constituency at HMP

:40:34.:40:39.

Lewes, which has seen disturbances over recent months and was put into

:40:40.:40:42.

special measures just before Christmas will stop I'm not sure if

:40:43.:40:46.

the Shadow minister has been the Lewes prison, I know the prison

:40:47.:40:49.

minister has, and I would encourage him to do so if we hasn't, because

:40:50.:40:53.

having visited the prison myself on a number of occasions, you cannot

:40:54.:40:59.

fail to be moved by the dedication of those prison officers that work

:41:00.:41:04.

there tirelessly. I am disappointed by the motion put forward by

:41:05.:41:07.

opposition members, and I note there are no further opposition members to

:41:08.:41:11.

speak, because it fails to demonstrate any understanding of the

:41:12.:41:14.

issues failing prison officers day in, day out. It isn't just about

:41:15.:41:19.

staffing levels. In Lewes prison for example, there have been a number of

:41:20.:41:22.

vacancies for a while now that have not been able to be filled. I take

:41:23.:41:28.

on board the points made by the member for North Dorset that in a

:41:29.:41:31.

rural constituency in the south-east of England it is hard to fill those

:41:32.:41:35.

vacancies, and irony welcomed the moves by the Secretary of State to

:41:36.:41:38.

move towards local recruitment where a governor can actually manage

:41:39.:41:43.

people leaving and have replacements ready at hand, and manage the skill

:41:44.:41:47.

mix and the experience of their prison officers to make that

:41:48.:41:52.

transition much more easier. The building of Lewes prison, as I have

:41:53.:41:55.

said in my interventions, is a difficult prison to manage. It is an

:41:56.:41:59.

old prison, which makes it very difficult when you are on register

:42:00.:42:03.

numbers of staff to be able to see what is going on. It is also a

:42:04.:42:08.

depressing prison inside. There is hardly any lighting, so not just

:42:09.:42:11.

inmates but for prison officers to work their day in, day out, is tough

:42:12.:42:19.

indeed. Indeed, the inmates there are also changing. The same usual

:42:20.:42:22.

faces that keep coming through the revolving door, there are also

:42:23.:42:26.

prisoners that are there for offences such as sexual offences,

:42:27.:42:29.

which were never there ten or 15 years ago. That has added pressure

:42:30.:42:35.

on the prison officers and the prisoners themselves. But I want to

:42:36.:42:39.

touch on the minute and a half that I have left on the fact that to

:42:40.:42:44.

support my colleague, the honourable member for Salisbury, in his words

:42:45.:42:49.

that we are, the members opposite are not even touching on what is

:42:50.:42:52.

motivating people to commit crime and enter prison in the first place.

:42:53.:42:56.

We know that a quarter of those in our prisons come from the care

:42:57.:43:00.

sector, have been in care at some point in their life, we know that

:43:01.:43:05.

59% of those who are entering prison have been in prison before, and we

:43:06.:43:10.

know that around three quarters of prisoners have problems reading or

:43:11.:43:14.

writing. I went just because there is such short time to do so. -- I

:43:15.:43:19.

went to give way. We absolutely have to deal with the way people enter

:43:20.:43:24.

the prisons. Talking to people in New Haven in my constituency who

:43:25.:43:28.

have come from the care sector in many cases, many of them

:43:29.:43:32.

deliberately commit crime to get into prison because they don't have

:43:33.:43:35.

confidence around housing or care, and many of their friends are in

:43:36.:43:40.

prison already. And until we address those life chances issues, we will

:43:41.:43:43.

be seeing the same people going through the prison system. And I

:43:44.:43:46.

know that this government and the justice department are not just

:43:47.:43:50.

working in isolation, they are working with children's Mr, with the

:43:51.:43:53.

health Minister under the Housing Minister to deal with housing

:43:54.:43:58.

problems, and that is why I am so disappointed with the motion before

:43:59.:44:01.

us by opposition members, because it just fails to tackle any of those

:44:02.:44:05.

issues, which are contributing to prisoner numbers, and they fail to

:44:06.:44:11.

have any understanding of that at all. Last year and Ronald Chowdhury,

:44:12.:44:21.

an extremist preacher and vocal supporter of the death cult Daesh

:44:22.:44:25.

was jailed for five and a half years. Like many I was pleased

:44:26.:44:28.

justice had been served but I was also deeply concerned by what

:44:29.:44:31.

influence he might have over his fellow inmates while serving his

:44:32.:44:35.

sentence. The influence radical inmates can have on other prisoners

:44:36.:44:39.

should not be underestimated. Prisoners -- prisons have already

:44:40.:44:42.

always had gangs and this is just another gang on the prison block. As

:44:43.:44:47.

such I firmly welcomed the measures put into place, particularly the

:44:48.:44:51.

stronger vetting of reasons, chaplains and front line staff and

:44:52.:44:55.

the removal of those spreading extreme violence and corrosive abuse

:44:56.:44:59.

from the general prison population in the specialist units. I would ask

:45:00.:45:03.

the Minister to do all that he can to ensure that once contained in the

:45:04.:45:08.

specialist units, extremists are not able to further collaborate and

:45:09.:45:10.

propagate their dangerous ideologies. I have long asked for

:45:11.:45:15.

tighter vetting the so-called faith leaders, and to ensure that all

:45:16.:45:18.

sermons and services are conducted in English. We hear of a reluctance

:45:19.:45:25.

among prison staff in challenging conditions extremist views,

:45:26.:45:28.

particularly with regards to Islamic beliefs that are radical. Prisons

:45:29.:45:31.

must not be allowed to exist as breeding grounds for the

:45:32.:45:36.

proliferation of Daesh, and it is of vital importance that we continue to

:45:37.:45:39.

push for the appropriate training of prison staff in this area.

:45:40.:45:46.

They must be properly equipped to combat extremism. I was shocked to

:45:47.:45:54.

hear inmates in Belmarsh prison and other prisons had extremist

:45:55.:45:59.

material. Surely the minister would agree this is an offence under the

:46:00.:46:02.

terrorism act and penalties must be served. In addition to this I would

:46:03.:46:06.

ask the Minister to ensure there is greater emphasis on the

:46:07.:46:07.

being at risk of radicalisation. There seems to be a link between

:46:08.:46:20.

mental health and radicalisation. It must run in tandem with the support

:46:21.:46:27.

provided through the programme. Beyond educational assessment

:46:28.:46:29.

prisoner should be screened for radical beliefs on entry to prison

:46:30.:46:33.

in order to make sure that such beliefs are detected as soon as

:46:34.:46:36.

possible. This would mean that from day one prison staff are aware of

:46:37.:46:42.

those likely to pose risks. I would also suggest that prisons record the

:46:43.:46:45.

religious beliefs of inmates if they have any, on entering and exiting

:46:46.:46:50.

prison. This will show how many are converted to an alien faith or

:46:51.:46:53.

forced to convert in prison to survive. As a member of the Home

:46:54.:46:57.

Affairs Select Committee we have investigated the rise of

:46:58.:47:00.

psychoactive substances and I am pleased reforms have been introduced

:47:01.:47:08.

to tackle the use of legal highs in prison. I would ask the Minister to

:47:09.:47:15.

acknowledge the link between mental health and crime. Finally, in order

:47:16.:47:23.

to turn our prisons into places of safety and reform we must track the

:47:24.:47:26.

progress made by prisoners in combating addiction and addressing

:47:27.:47:29.

extremist prison gangs and the levels of red religious conversion

:47:30.:47:39.

and help our prisoners gain critical skills and the educational

:47:40.:47:41.

requirements they need to get a job on function outside prison.

:47:42.:47:48.

I enter into this debate with some amount of trepidation, if I'm

:47:49.:47:51.

honest. We seem to have a veritable cricket team of former prison

:47:52.:47:55.

ministers or lawyers who have been involved in it. Can I pay tribute to

:47:56.:48:00.

my honourable friend for Reigate, who ended up coming up with me on a

:48:01.:48:07.

cricket tour to Jamaica, where we went and visited a very interesting

:48:08.:48:12.

prison, and the work he did to make sure there will be a new prison so

:48:13.:48:18.

we can hope for a transfer some of the Jamaican prisoners from this

:48:19.:48:19.

country back to Jamaica. I am not going to pretend for a

:48:20.:48:30.

moment I have any prisoners in my constituency. Indeed I worked in the

:48:31.:48:34.

1980s and 90s as the Conservative Party agent for the Prisons Minister

:48:35.:48:43.

at the time, and I learned quite a bit. We visited Wandsworth prison,

:48:44.:48:47.

where they were seeking to try and get Ronnie Biggs to go back to.

:48:48.:48:51.

Indeed, when I said would they like, what had actually happened, they

:48:52.:48:58.

said they wanted him to go back and collect his staff in person, which

:48:59.:49:02.

he eventually, I think, went and did. I have got in my constituency

:49:03.:49:08.

probably the busiest custody suite in the whole of the country. It

:49:09.:49:13.

seems in my mind that is where we have to start from. There are three

:49:14.:49:17.

things which I think we have to make sure happen. First of all we need to

:49:18.:49:20.

make sure people can read and write and also add up. Can I commend the

:49:21.:49:26.

Government on producing this league of prisons, which are achieving

:49:27.:49:32.

that, I think that is good news. Secondly it's about making sure we

:49:33.:49:36.

get them off drugs and I think that is something that the Government is

:49:37.:49:40.

quite aware of. The third thing, which I think is very important, of

:49:41.:49:45.

course I represent a naval garrison city, with a large Royal Marine

:49:46.:49:49.

population, which is going to grow as well. Can I pay tribute to Trevor

:49:50.:49:55.

Philpott who runs an organisation called veterans change partnership,

:49:56.:49:58.

which is seeking to change the justice system so that we don't get

:49:59.:50:03.

the veterans into the justice system in the first place. If I may

:50:04.:50:08.

encourage the justice system also to make sure they make greater use of

:50:09.:50:13.

those people who have served in the military when they are magistrates,

:50:14.:50:16.

that would be incredibly helpful, because at least they have some idea

:50:17.:50:19.

as to what happens. I'm sorry, I'm not going to give away because I am

:50:20.:50:23.

sure of time. It seems to my mind, the other point I would also make

:50:24.:50:30.

is, I was involved in an organisation called Forward Assessed

:50:31.:50:36.

whether Shadow Northern Ireland Secretary got involved. When I was

:50:37.:50:38.

on the northern Ireland select committee we went down, to a

:50:39.:50:43.

community in Washington, and we learned how they were dealing with

:50:44.:50:48.

the veterans. What they have is a veterans treatment Court as well.

:50:49.:50:51.

That is something I would urge the Government to have a look at in no

:50:52.:50:56.

uncertain terms. This is a vital that we get that right, and also we

:50:57.:51:00.

do something about mental health and I would ask the Government to look

:51:01.:51:04.

at better training for prison officers, because they do

:51:05.:51:08.

brilliantly good job and I have a lot of prison officers in my

:51:09.:51:11.

constituency who work in Dartmoor and I look forward to going to see

:51:12.:51:16.

Exeter and Dartmoor outside my constituency as well. Thank you very

:51:17.:51:24.

much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It

:51:25.:51:28.

is a pleasure to be able to close this debate. I think it is right and

:51:29.:51:33.

that everyone agrees we have heard from people who have spoken very

:51:34.:51:39.

eloquently and knowledgeably about the issues that are facing our

:51:40.:51:46.

prison system. Before I go into what those members have said I do want to

:51:47.:51:52.

thank our prison officers, prison governors and all those who work in

:51:53.:51:55.

the prison services, because they face very challenging challenges

:51:56.:52:02.

every day in their lives and I think we owe them a lot for the work that

:52:03.:52:05.

they do for us in the prison services.

:52:06.:52:10.

I want to start with what the honourable member for Don Valley

:52:11.:52:15.

said, who has three prisons in her constituency, and she talked about

:52:16.:52:21.

the work she had achieved as a former minister, about trying to

:52:22.:52:25.

reduce the number of violence in prisons. She has set out some of the

:52:26.:52:32.

comprehensive failures of this government. I'm sorry if that is

:52:33.:52:36.

going to disappoint members opposite, but as I will expand

:52:37.:52:41.

later, there have been failures to tackle some of the big issues facing

:52:42.:52:44.

our prisons. We also heard from the honourable

:52:45.:52:54.

member who had three prisons in her constituency. She talked about the

:52:55.:52:59.

prison budget cut by, she talked about the ?900 million taken away

:53:00.:53:06.

from prisons. Obviously it's going to affect our prisons are run and

:53:07.:53:12.

the impact on staff. She raised three questions she thought that the

:53:13.:53:18.

prisons should be looking at -- the prison minister should be looking

:53:19.:53:22.

at. The fact there are too many women in prison, particularly women

:53:23.:53:25.

with children, and there doesn't seem to be any clear strategy in

:53:26.:53:29.

place in the prison system to be able to deal with those situations.

:53:30.:53:34.

If children can visit their parents, or how to assist them. It is also

:53:35.:53:40.

reflected in the fact from the Ministry of Justice's on facts that

:53:41.:53:45.

the number of suicides that have occurred in prison, a much higher

:53:46.:53:51.

percentage were women. She talked about reoffending on the issue of

:53:52.:53:57.

education and training, which would stop reoffending taking place and

:53:58.:54:03.

talked about mental health issues and personality disorders. Again,

:54:04.:54:06.

there has been a cut in the funding for the services and those things

:54:07.:54:11.

need to be addressed as well. I also want to come on to what the

:54:12.:54:17.

honourable member for Chesterfield said when he talked about the fact

:54:18.:54:25.

that many experienced staff had left the prison service replaced by

:54:26.:54:32.

inexperienced staff and I think it's well accepted experienced officers,

:54:33.:54:35.

whilst carrying out their duties as prison officers, do far more than

:54:36.:54:41.

just locking and unlocking the gates and taking prisoners in and out.

:54:42.:54:45.

They are often only the only person the prisoners will be speaking to.

:54:46.:54:50.

It's been accepted that they act as, you could say, advisors, family

:54:51.:54:56.

members, a listening ear, someone who is sympathetic. I think to have

:54:57.:55:01.

inexperienced people taking over these roles is not good enough.

:55:02.:55:07.

Therefore, I agree wholeheartedly with what the honourable member for

:55:08.:55:15.

Shipley... I can't remember... Said when he talked about the tremendous

:55:16.:55:23.

work prison officers do and the fact their terms and conditions should be

:55:24.:55:27.

looked at properly and they should be put on the same footing as other

:55:28.:55:34.

people involved and doing these difficult, sensitive jobs, like

:55:35.:55:37.

police officers, and they should be remunerated properly. It is right to

:55:38.:55:46.

say since the Government came in in 2010 they did make massive cuts in

:55:47.:55:50.

prison officers numbers, and that is one of the big reasons why we have

:55:51.:55:56.

got some of the issues that we have in prisons. It's all very well for

:55:57.:56:00.

the Government to say, well, we are trying to do things, and that's

:56:01.:56:03.

good, but they should never have done that in the first place,

:56:04.:56:06.

because if they hadn't cut those numbers in the first place and made

:56:07.:56:13.

that false economy, we wouldn't be in half the mess that we are in now.

:56:14.:56:21.

I try not to be party political about this, but I think it was the

:56:22.:56:25.

wrong decision... It was the wrong decision, and I think it would be

:56:26.:56:31.

really good if the Government accepted that that was a wrong

:56:32.:56:40.

decision. Owning up to the fact it was an error, there's no harm in

:56:41.:56:43.

that. Now, when I come to what some of the

:56:44.:56:49.

other members have said, one of the suggestions put forward for trying

:56:50.:56:59.

to deal with some of the prison problems, what the honourable member

:57:00.:57:03.

for Surrey Reigate said, I have to set the chairman of the Home Affairs

:57:04.:57:06.

Select Committee, whilst I was on his committee I agreed with him on

:57:07.:57:09.

the international issues moral or less, private Asian is not the

:57:10.:57:14.

answer in prisons. It hasn't been for probation. I think we have found

:57:15.:57:19.

that probation service is used to have full staff gold rating but

:57:20.:57:22.

since the privatisation has taken place, it has gone downhill. That

:57:23.:57:27.

has some impact into what is going on in the prison service as well.

:57:28.:57:35.

And then there's of course... Of course I will give way.

:57:36.:57:39.

I'm very grateful to the honourable lady and the Foreign Affairs

:57:40.:57:47.

Committee's losses the front bench's gain. I would just like to ask if

:57:48.:57:51.

she could be explicit here about the potential role of the private sector

:57:52.:57:58.

under Labour policy, it was Labour who had a commercialisation strategy

:57:59.:58:01.

and opened up the competition for Birmingham prison in the first

:58:02.:58:05.

place. This is the Labour Party saying there is no role for the

:58:06.:58:08.

private sector in the delivery of justice in our country, simply on

:58:09.:58:15.

ideological grounds? Well, the Labour Party also had IPPs

:58:16.:58:25.

and I was not one of the people that favoured that particular provision.

:58:26.:58:28.

In fact I will touch on about the impact of that into our prison

:58:29.:58:34.

system. The Secretary of State spoke about the fact they are trying to

:58:35.:58:42.

deal with the issues arising from IPP. The reason so many people have

:58:43.:58:47.

done their sentence on IPPs is not because they can't get out, it's

:58:48.:58:51.

because they have to go on training courses. Unless they've done those

:58:52.:58:58.

designated, specific training courses, they can't get out.

:58:59.:59:02.

Unfortunately there has been lack of funding for those training courses,

:59:03.:59:09.

and the Government has to take responsibility for the fact a lot of

:59:10.:59:12.

those people have not been released from prison as well. As I said, it's

:59:13.:59:19.

been a really interesting and really good debate because we've had a lot

:59:20.:59:28.

of experience people, ministers, ex-ministers and Secretary of States

:59:29.:59:32.

for justice here who have spoken about this. I think what we can all

:59:33.:59:39.

agree on is this is something everyone is concerned about. It's

:59:40.:59:44.

not a big vote winner or an issue you often get people talking about

:59:45.:59:50.

on the doorsteps, but it is an issue, because it shows us for what

:59:51.:59:56.

we stand for as society. The one thing we can agree on and most

:59:57.:00:00.

people agree with me, we have got problems and there are crises in our

:00:01.:00:01.

our prison systems. The honourable member for Dell in

:00:02.:00:12.

that used to be a former minister set out and talk about some of the

:00:13.:00:17.

proposals in the White Paper that the government have brought forward

:00:18.:00:19.

as we are dealing with this issue, but talks about all the

:00:20.:00:24.

shortcomings. He talked about all the answers not provided for,

:00:25.:00:30.

because it seems to suggest, well, you will have age prison being risen

:00:31.:00:35.

by -- being run by prison governors and it is not answering the issue

:00:36.:00:40.

like Will the governor have complete autonomy in the centre, will they

:00:41.:00:45.

have enough money to carry out other thing they are wanting to do. Will

:00:46.:00:55.

the inmates require too trip detoxification rehabilitation

:00:56.:00:58.

programme, will he or she have that money to do so? It is very well to

:00:59.:01:03.

say you can do this but where is the funding going to come? Will they

:01:04.:01:06.

have an unlimited pot of money to be able to do this? How are these

:01:07.:01:10.

people going to be recruited, who will they be answerable to? There

:01:11.:01:13.

are lots of things in the White Paper which are not being answered

:01:14.:01:19.

and do not deal with the problem. You have raised a number of issues

:01:20.:01:23.

but I'm yet to hear what the solutions are from your side of the

:01:24.:01:27.

house was top could I also ask the honourable lady does she agree with

:01:28.:01:33.

shallow chakra party, the shadow Attorney General, that half the

:01:34.:01:36.

present pollution should be released? If the honourable member

:01:37.:01:42.

had been here in the chamber at the beginning of the debate, this

:01:43.:01:48.

question was put by her predecessor. It was put by another member who was

:01:49.:01:53.

present to ask that question, I think the honourable member for

:01:54.:02:01.

Shipley. You are the government and it is for you to deal with the

:02:02.:02:06.

crisis of... You're order, the honourable lady will take her seat

:02:07.:02:09.

when the chair is standing, thank you. Can I just remind the

:02:10.:02:13.

honourable lady there is a reason why we don't address people directly

:02:14.:02:17.

in the second person, and that is because things get very, very

:02:18.:02:20.

heated, and that is why the honourable lady addresses her

:02:21.:02:26.

remarks through the chair, thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:02:27.:02:29.

Speaker, for that, and I apologise for that. To come onto question of

:02:30.:02:38.

they are the government, they have been in power for the last seven

:02:39.:02:41.

years, prisons have been under their control and it is under their watch

:02:42.:02:51.

that 6000 staff cuts have been made. It is under their watch that a

:02:52.:02:55.

quarter of prisoners, I only have three and a half minutes. Given the

:02:56.:03:08.

huge crisis that the honourable lady is outlining to the house, which

:03:09.:03:13.

clearly she and her front bench colleagues share, could she is going

:03:14.:03:18.

to on an opposition Dave motion they ran out of speakers and we didn't?

:03:19.:03:25.

If that is trying to deflect away from what the government should have

:03:26.:03:31.

been doing for the last seven years. Prison staff cut by 6000, around a

:03:32.:03:38.

quarter of all prisons in overcrowded or unsuitable

:03:39.:03:43.

conditions. Over the last 12 months there have been 6000 assaults, 105

:03:44.:03:54.

self-inflicted deaths of prisoners, a record. For mental health and

:03:55.:04:01.

distress. Incidents of self harm in prison have increased by over 25% in

:04:02.:04:11.

2016 from previous years. So when we look at all the statistics that have

:04:12.:04:15.

been provided by the Ministry of Justice, it shows self harm has gone

:04:16.:04:22.

up, assaults have gone up, deaths have occurred, suicide has happened,

:04:23.:04:28.

and I afraid to say that is the responsibility of this government

:04:29.:04:32.

because you have been in charge of prison for the last seven years.

:04:33.:04:43.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to echo the comments by the member

:04:44.:04:51.

for Bolton South East in thanking our brave prison officers for the

:04:52.:04:56.

hard work they do, but also extend that thanks to the Tornado prison

:04:57.:05:02.

officers who have been active for the last few months and have done a

:05:03.:05:06.

splendid job. This debate has been very well-informed and a lively

:05:07.:05:13.

debate at times. There has been one speaker from plate camera, five from

:05:14.:05:18.

the -- Plaid Cymru, five from the Labour benches and 13 from the

:05:19.:05:24.

government's side. The government speakers include all former prison

:05:25.:05:28.

ministers and two former Justice secretaries. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:05:29.:05:35.

would say that that shows how seriously we take issues to do with

:05:36.:05:39.

our prisons but also turning around people's lives on the side of the

:05:40.:05:48.

house. This side of the house has owned up to the problem. My right

:05:49.:05:52.

noble friend the Secretary of State said right from the time she was

:05:53.:05:55.

appointed at the level of violence in prisons is too high and has

:05:56.:06:00.

acknowledged that staffing is part of what is a conflict is problem but

:06:01.:06:06.

is part of the answer of what is a conflict problem that has developed

:06:07.:06:10.

over a very long period of time. So there is consensus across the house

:06:11.:06:15.

that as far as problems are concerned, we are all agreed

:06:16.:06:20.

something needs to be done. The difference between the side and that

:06:21.:06:25.

side is that if the 30 minutes that the opposition front bench

:06:26.:06:29.

spokesperson spoke as the member for Surrey Heath so erudite 2-putted, we

:06:30.:06:33.

did not get a single positive alternative suggestion. In fact it

:06:34.:06:41.

reminded me, this house was once referred to as the gasworks.

:06:42.:06:46.

Listening to the shadow opposition front bench, I sort of realised why.

:06:47.:06:52.

His speech was full of hot air. Our plan is very, very clear. We have

:06:53.:06:59.

said in a media terms what we will do is we are monitoring and

:07:00.:07:04.

supporting governors -- immediate terms, in the longer term we are

:07:05.:07:10.

tackling security threats to improve staffing levels and transform the

:07:11.:07:13.

way prison officers support and challenge prisoners. As part of

:07:14.:07:17.

that, we are looking at raising the prestige, their status and the role

:07:18.:07:21.

of prison officers. These are not just words, they are back by action

:07:22.:07:28.

that my right honourable friend the Secretary of State referred to. New

:07:29.:07:31.

paper and new investment secured the investment staffing, a prison and

:07:32.:07:35.

Courts built on the way, and implant strategy on the way, a strategy to

:07:36.:07:41.

deal with women offenders, on the way, and this is real action to

:07:42.:07:44.

tackle the very serious problems in our prisons. I am very grateful to

:07:45.:07:54.

the Minister forgiving way. Does he take any responsibility at all for

:07:55.:07:59.

the deterioration in our prisons since 2010? My right honourable

:08:00.:08:07.

friend the Secretary of State made very clear it is incredibly

:08:08.:08:11.

simplistic to allude to the fact that problems in our prisons are

:08:12.:08:16.

simply due to staffing. We have the rise of new psychoactive substances,

:08:17.:08:22.

old taboos are being broken in booze now. It used to be the case you

:08:23.:08:26.

never attacked a female prison officer, but now we are seeing that

:08:27.:08:29.

routinely on our wings. Our prisons have changed and to deal with that

:08:30.:08:34.

convex problem we need a multifaceted set of answers, and

:08:35.:08:37.

that is what this government is delivering. On the two principal

:08:38.:08:44.

points the opposition made, the first was overcrowding. We still do

:08:45.:08:50.

not know whether the front bench agrees with itself, in terms of

:08:51.:08:55.

where Lady chakra buddy is, whether we should be reducing prison number

:08:56.:08:58.

is to the tune in 40 5000. Even on the issue of prison officers, when

:08:59.:09:03.

the member for Peterborough challenge the front bench

:09:04.:09:06.

spokesperson on whether they would commit to increasing prison numbers,

:09:07.:09:11.

prison officer numbers, by 2500 officers, they still could not agree

:09:12.:09:18.

or make that commitment. So I am no wiser as to what the solution that

:09:19.:09:22.

side of the house is offering to a problem that they say is critical,

:09:23.:09:28.

yet in calling for this debate they have not been able to offer a

:09:29.:09:32.

solution. Madam Deputy Speaker, in the brief time I have two sum up, I

:09:33.:09:36.

will pick up some of the points that were made in the debate. The member

:09:37.:09:41.

for Don Valley made a very good speech and I agree with her on

:09:42.:09:46.

leadership that we want governors to stay put for longer and we also want

:09:47.:09:50.

to make sure that in terms of staffing it is effective on the

:09:51.:09:54.

wings and we do not have the one to 60 ratio that she mentions, I

:09:55.:10:00.

totally agree with her. From the Secretary of State, the member for

:10:01.:10:04.

Surrey Heath, made a character 's Cliff erudite speech and I agree

:10:05.:10:08.

with him on the need for smarter automotives the incarceration, and I

:10:09.:10:15.

would say that one way of doing this is dealing with problems before

:10:16.:10:18.

custody. But also he mentioned problem-solving courts. We are

:10:19.:10:21.

currently trialling the concept and it is one I am very hopeful about. I

:10:22.:10:32.

would like to commend my honourable friend's points, but would he also

:10:33.:10:36.

agree with me that in order to break the cycle of reoffending, tackling

:10:37.:10:41.

substance misuse is key but also key upon discharge and release from

:10:42.:10:46.

prison, and there is a real problem with misuse areas in many areas, and

:10:47.:10:51.

that is hopefully an area he will look at. My honourable friend makes

:10:52.:11:00.

an excellent point something my friend the member for Bracknell,

:11:01.:11:02.

also a former doctor, is dealing with, and we will be looking at this

:11:03.:11:08.

when we bring our proposals later. The former prison minister, the

:11:09.:11:15.

member Fidelio, who I always enjoy listening to, given his constructive

:11:16.:11:20.

approach, made a number of points around government empowerment, local

:11:21.:11:25.

increment, but also performance management force surveys are

:11:26.:11:26.

detailed and constructive points. By never just a select committee has

:11:27.:11:30.

written asking for answers to some of these questions, and I would

:11:31.:11:33.

ensure they get a rapid response, but in addition to that, I would

:11:34.:11:38.

offer a meeting to sit down with him and the subcommittee looking at

:11:39.:11:41.

prisons to talk about some of the detail of the White Paper. Madam

:11:42.:11:49.

Deputy Speaker, a number of issues were raised around staffing which my

:11:50.:11:53.

right honourable friend the Secretary of State Telford

:11:54.:11:55.

eloquently in terms of our plans in the White Paper and how we would

:11:56.:11:59.

deal with them subsequently. I just want to pick a couple of other

:12:00.:12:06.

options. He was unable to accept in response to my honourable friend's

:12:07.:12:10.

question any responsible at the Ford has happened. He is right to say

:12:11.:12:12.

that staffing is not the only problem but part of the problem. We

:12:13.:12:17.

are 6000 prison officers down, will he replace them? Yes or no? If my

:12:18.:12:24.

honourable friend had been following this debate carefully, he would know

:12:25.:12:28.

that we have also closed 18 prisons in that time. As the member said,

:12:29.:12:34.

drugs etc, it is a very convex problem. Anyway, the government has

:12:35.:12:38.

committed to increasing the number of prison officer numbers. Today the

:12:39.:12:42.

opposition would not even match our number so I do not think I will be

:12:43.:12:45.

taking lessons from the opposition on what to do in terms of staffing

:12:46.:12:50.

numbers in our prisons is concerned. I want to touch on an issue raised

:12:51.:12:55.

to the member of the Sittingbourne in Shipley, dealing with mainly

:12:56.:13:01.

attacks on prison officers. I completely agree with the points he

:13:02.:13:06.

made, announcing prisoners should feel the full force of the law.

:13:07.:13:09.

There are of course independent adjudicator is that can already

:13:10.:13:14.

impose additional days on prisoners, but also we are working with the

:13:15.:13:20.

Attorney General, the police and the CPS to insure offenders face swift

:13:21.:13:24.

justice, and we can provide better evidence in the courts. We are also

:13:25.:13:28.

working with the Judiciary Committee of error clear powers so they can --

:13:29.:13:39.

with the judiciary so there are clear powers so they can identify

:13:40.:13:42.

crimes. We want body worn cameras across the estate. The member for

:13:43.:13:47.

Leicester East mentioned the issue of foreign national offenders, in

:13:48.:13:54.

the last year we had record number of offenders that were deported to

:13:55.:13:57.

their home countries. There is still a lot of work to do, and there is a

:13:58.:14:04.

task force made up of ministers for the Home Office, looking for all the

:14:05.:14:09.

levers around our relationships with these countries in order to deport

:14:10.:14:13.

people as quickly as possible. So, Madam Debuchy Speaker, we have heard

:14:14.:14:19.

in a debate that the opposition called for no positive alternative

:14:20.:14:23.

to the plans that have been offered by the government. I would urge all

:14:24.:14:28.

members to vote for a Cliff line that the government has put forward

:14:29.:14:31.

to deal with the challenging issue in our prisons that would also help

:14:32.:14:39.

us turn around people's lives. The question is that the original words

:14:40.:14:45.

than part of the question. Say I. Say no. Division, clear the lobby.

:14:46.:15:41.

Order, order. The the one to the right 196, the Turn two to the left,

:15:42.:29:19.

189. The ayes to the right were 196 and the nos to the left were 189 so

:29:20.:29:34.

that Inter macro habit. I think the ayes have it, the ayes have it.

:29:35.:29:40.

Order, order. I now have the announced the result of the deferred

:29:41.:29:46.

division on the question relating to financial services. The ayes were

:29:47.:29:51.

292, the nos were 191, so the ayes have it.

:29:52.:29:57.

I inform the House that the Speaker has selected the amendment in the

:29:58.:30:04.

name of the Prime Minister. Before I call the honourable lady to move the

:30:05.:30:10.

motion. Can I point out there are 636 men's -- members wishing to seek

:30:11.:30:16.

speak. Can I ask the front Bens to be as concise as possible and to

:30:17.:30:20.

members wishing to speak, if they are making intervention on front

:30:21.:30:24.

benchers they will find their names Mr yously slip down the speaking

:30:25.:30:28.

list, and I am sorry to say we will start with a limit of three minutes

:30:29.:30:34.

so if people could keep their interventions to an absolute

:30:35.:30:37.

minimum, it means that everybody might get in, otherwise there will

:30:38.:30:40.

be people at the bottom of list who will not be able to speak. So will

:30:41.:30:47.

that let's get going. Angela Raynor. Thank you Madame Deputy Speaker. I

:30:48.:30:54.

will try and keep interventions to a minimum.

:30:55.:31:01.

We have heard much this week, Madame Deputy Speaker about representing

:31:02.:31:04.

the mandate the people have given news this House, so today, I am

:31:05.:31:09.

giving members opposite the chance to do that, to implement the pledge

:31:10.:31:14.

that they gave the country, in their election manifesto, that said under

:31:15.:31:18.

a future Conservative Government, the amount of money following your

:31:19.:31:23.

child into school will be protected. There will be a real terms increase

:31:24.:31:27.

in the schools budget, in the next Parliament. A pledge that was

:31:28.:31:32.

repeatedly made by the last Prime Minister, the one who actually

:31:33.:31:36.

fought an election, and he was very clear what it meant, he said I can

:31:37.:31:40.

tell you with a Conservative Government the amount of money

:31:41.:31:44.

following your child into school will not be cut. There is one

:31:45.:31:49.

question that the Secretary of State has to answer today. Will she keep

:31:50.:31:53.

her party's promise to the British people? The National Audit Office

:31:54.:31:59.

has told us their answer, they have revealed on the current spending

:32:00.:32:04.

settlement there will be an 8% cut in pupil funding. Between 2015 and

:32:05.:32:12.

2020. That was the same conclusion that was reached by the Institute

:32:13.:32:16.

for Fiscal Studies, this means that there will be schools in every

:32:17.:32:22.

region, every city, every town and every constituency, losing money

:32:23.:32:26.

because of the failure of this Government to protect funding to our

:32:27.:32:31.

schools. So will the Secretary of State tell us whether she intends to

:32:32.:32:37.

keep that manifesto pledge? And let us consider the context, I will make

:32:38.:32:42.

some progress, Britain has a deep social mobility problem and for this

:32:43.:32:46.

generation in particular, it is getting worse not better as a result

:32:47.:32:53.

of an unfair education system, a two tier labour market and imbalanced

:32:54.:32:57.

economy and unaffordable housing mark. That was the conclusion of the

:32:58.:33:02.

Government's own social mobility commission and what about our

:33:03.:33:08.

education system? We still have too many under performing schools, and

:33:09.:33:13.

low overall levels of numeracy and literacy. England remains the only

:33:14.:33:20.

OCD country where 16-24-year-olds are no more literal than

:33:21.:33:27.

55-64-year-olds. Again, not my conclusion, but that of the

:33:28.:33:30.

Government's only industrial strategy green paper which quite

:33:31.:33:34.

rightly makes clear how central education is to our economy,

:33:35.:33:36.

especially following Brexit. I give way. Grateful to my

:33:37.:33:42.

honourable friend. This broken pledge about funding schools and

:33:43.:33:49.

increasing funding 74 out of 77 schools, 96% of them face cuts of

:33:50.:33:57.

over ?200,000 by 2019 in real terms. How is that defendable and how is

:33:58.:34:01.

that evidence of a government that cares about education? I thank my

:34:02.:34:06.

honourable friend for his intervention and I agree with him,

:34:07.:34:09.

there is no justification for these cuts. The Secretary of State has, of

:34:10.:34:16.

course, unveiled the proposal solution, her so-called national

:34:17.:34:21.

fair funding formula, she presented this as a reverse distribution and

:34:22.:34:27.

on the Government's own figures they are literally robber Peterborough to

:34:28.:34:31.

pay for Poole. It doesn't take long for members on Bowe sides to

:34:32.:34:34.

discover not only is there nothing fair about the proposed funding

:34:35.:34:39.

formula but it also won't make up for overall real terms cuts.

:34:40.:34:43.

Concerns is about what this means for our constituents are shared on

:34:44.:34:48.

both sides of the House, that the honourable member for Brexle has

:34:49.:34:52.

said his message sides to discover not only is there nothing fair about

:34:53.:34:55.

the proposed funding formula but it also won't make up for overall real

:34:56.:34:58.

terms cuts. Concerns is about what this means for our constituents are

:34:59.:35:00.

shared on both sides of the House, that the honourable member for

:35:01.:35:03.

Brexle has said his message to the minister is "I don't get this and I

:35:04.:35:05.

don't think it is particularly fair." I hope we will see him in the

:35:06.:35:08.

came ber and he will put his concerns forward. The honourable

:35:09.:35:10.

member for Altrincham sale west said every secondary school in Trafford

:35:11.:35:13.

will lose funding, even though it is one of the places famously

:35:14.:35:15.

underfunded for education, perhaps we will hear if him too. The

:35:16.:35:22.

honourable member for Cheltenham who co-chaired the F 40 group. He said

:35:23.:35:27.

just this morning that the bottom line is that this, it has created

:35:28.:35:33.

distorted outcomes which we think require significant remodelling. No

:35:34.:35:37.

wonder he is concerned, because nearly half of the F 40 group will

:35:38.:35:42.

face further cuts, rather than increased under the minister's

:35:43.:35:46.

national funding fiddle. Of course, there is one member opposite who

:35:47.:35:51.

seems happy to accept the cuts and that is the Secretary of State

:35:52.:35:57.

herself. The Secretary of State is set to cut schools, they are set to

:35:58.:36:01.

lose round 15% of their funding per pupil. Perhaps she will be lobbying

:36:02.:36:08.

herself. The honourable member's listing members that are unhappy. I

:36:09.:36:15.

like she am unhappy in Southend all the schools are receiving a cut

:36:16.:36:20.

under this funding formula, I think the only area local authority area

:36:21.:36:24.

outside Central London where that is the case. This is a point this is

:36:25.:36:30.

not a final decision, the figures I got were from the House of Commons

:36:31.:36:34.

library, I may have misread them, but is the point not this is a

:36:35.:36:40.

consultation? If this was a fait accompli I wouldn't be supporting

:36:41.:36:43.

the honourable lady but this is a consultation.

:36:44.:36:46.

I hope that the honourable members will make contributions today, I

:36:47.:36:49.

think the motion that is set out to honourable members across the House

:36:50.:36:54.

today, makes it quite clear that the cocktail of cuts that our schools

:36:55.:37:00.

are facing is going to see 98% of schools losing out, so o hope that

:37:01.:37:05.

the Government do think again about their proposals. She is making a

:37:06.:37:18.

powerful speech. In my constituency we are looking to cuts coming in of

:37:19.:37:26.

?437 per pupil. With the Government saying it believes in social

:37:27.:37:28.

mobility and wants to support that and with a third of our children not

:37:29.:37:34.

achieving five good G7, doesn't she agree with me, it is the wrong time

:37:35.:37:38.

to cut funding for schools four pupils that most need it. It. It an

:37:39.:37:44.

own goal. I absolutely agree with the honourable member. I would go so

:37:45.:37:49.

far to say the meritocracy is in shatters already, that the Prime

:37:50.:37:52.

Minister is talking about. The National Audit Office has said that

:37:53.:37:58.

she expects schools to make ?1.7 billion of savings by using staff

:37:59.:38:03.

more efficiently. Can she guarantee today that these so-called

:38:04.:38:08.

efficiency doesn't mean fewer staff? Because a ?1.7 billion cut could

:38:09.:38:13.

mean up to o 10,000 redundancies for teaching staff in our schools. Of

:38:14.:38:19.

course she resolutely failed to give us figures for the impact of the

:38:20.:38:24.

planned cuts, but her own analysis of the research, that the education

:38:25.:38:29.

unions have conducted show the cuts in my own region would amount to

:38:30.:38:34.

well over ?400 million, requiring the loss of over 2,000 teachers.

:38:35.:38:41.

Given that her own Government, given that the Government has failed to

:38:42.:38:47.

meet their own teacher requirement target. I urge the Secretary of

:38:48.:38:51.

State to think again before she tries to solve this on the back of

:38:52.:38:56.

hard-working staff. And make no mistake, that this is a crisis.

:38:57.:39:01.

Schools are already resorting to staff cuts to cope. The unison staff

:39:02.:39:06.

survey conducted last year showed then more than one in ten remembers

:39:07.:39:13.

pen dents reported redundancies. More than one in five said their

:39:14.:39:18.

school left vacant posts unfilled over the past year or cut back on

:39:19.:39:22.

maintenance, nearly a quarter had seen increase in class sizes and

:39:23.:39:27.

over a quarter experienced cuts to budgets for books and resources over

:39:28.:39:30.

the past year. I give way.

:39:31.:39:35.

I am grateful to the honourable lady for giving way. To come back to fair

:39:36.:39:40.

funding. I am sorry she doesn't agree with that. How can she justify

:39:41.:39:50.

that a child in the constituency of her leader will receive ?6229 a year

:39:51.:39:58.

on average and in the Shadow Home Secretary's constituency 6680. Many

:39:59.:40:03.

in my constituency in West Sussex it will be less than ?4200. How can

:40:04.:40:11.

that be justified? I say to the honourable member, that the Labour

:40:12.:40:14.

Party is for fair funding but this isn't fair funding. This is sub fair

:40:15.:40:19.

funding for every school across the nation. -- unfair. You should take,

:40:20.:40:23.

the honourable member should take heed of what that means for his own

:40:24.:40:26.

constituency. And that pulling people down is not the way to go

:40:27.:40:32.

forward. If we want to make the best of our economy, post-Brexit, is we

:40:33.:40:37.

need to make sure we invest in all schools, instead of taking from one

:40:38.:40:42.

school, robbing from one group of young people yet seeing an overall

:40:43.:40:46.

distribution cut throughout. I am going to carry on. Make progress.

:40:47.:40:55.

It is no surprise that the National Audit Office found that between 2010

:40:56.:41:01.

and 2015 the number of maintained schools are in deficit, rose from

:41:02.:41:08.

nearly 33% to nearly 60%. The report refers to a sample schools that said

:41:09.:41:13.

typical savings were through increased class sizes. Replacing

:41:14.:41:19.

experienced teachers with new recruits, recruiting staff on

:41:20.:41:23.

temporary contracts, encouraging staff to teach outside their

:41:24.:41:28.

specialist and relying on more unqualified staff. None of the

:41:29.:41:31.

measures are ones that parents would want to see in their school. The

:41:32.:41:36.

National Audit Office tells us that her department's estimates for

:41:37.:41:40.

savings do not take into account the real impact on schools.

:41:41.:41:43.

For instance, the Government seemed to remain committed to cutting the

:41:44.:41:48.

national education service's grant which amounts to 600 million, but

:41:49.:41:52.

has not yet completed any assessment of how this will impact on schools

:41:53.:41:56.

across England. When will this assessment be put to the House? Just

:41:57.:42:02.

this Monday, the Public Accounts Committee heard from head teachers

:42:03.:42:06.

who are desperately trying to keep providing an excellent education

:42:07.:42:10.

system, in the face of funding cuts. I hope the Secretary of State heard

:42:11.:42:14.

Kate Davis, head teacher of Darton college in Barnsley for example. She

:42:15.:42:20.

said that the result of House? Just this Monday, the Public Accounts

:42:21.:42:22.

Committee heard from head teachers who are desperately trying to keep

:42:23.:42:24.

providing an excellent education system, in the face of funding cuts.

:42:25.:42:27.

I hope the Secretary of State heard Kate Davis, head teacher of Darton

:42:28.:42:29.

college in Barnsley for example. She said that the result of the funding

:42:30.:42:32.

cut, "We have reduced the curriculum offer, cut out the whole of the

:42:33.:42:34.

community team, we have reduced staffing and the leadership team." I

:42:35.:42:37.

am sure the Secretary of State heard only this morning, that Tim Garside

:42:38.:42:39.

the head teacher of alTring ham grammar school for boys said the

:42:40.:42:42.

cuts in his school, they are facing, are so severe that he only had three

:42:43.:42:48.

options left. To reduce the curriculum, to increase class sizes,

:42:49.:42:54.

or to ask parents to make cash contribution to keep the school

:42:55.:42:58.

running. So what is the Secretary of State's plan? Does she want schools

:42:59.:43:04.

to cut subjects, increase class sizes or make parents foot the bill?

:43:05.:43:12.

Is she not concerned that school risk discriminating against low

:43:13.:43:16.

income family, and schools in lower income areas? And we have heard

:43:17.:43:20.

similar, not just from representatives of teachers but

:43:21.:43:25.

unions like Unison and GMB who represent teaching assistants, if

:43:26.:43:28.

she thinks they are soft targets for cuts let me tell her she is much

:43:29.:43:36.

mistaken. The evidence from the educational Darwin foundation shows

:43:37.:43:39.

National Union of Teachersing assistant make an important impact

:43:40.:43:44.

on literacy and numeracy and those previously struggling. The very

:43:45.:43:49.

pupils that the Government said needed extra support if we were to

:43:50.:43:53.

raise our schools and productivity only earlier this week. Since the

:43:54.:44:01.

Government established the staff negotiating body, teaching

:44:02.:44:03.

assistant's pay has declined so far many are on the minimum wage, there

:44:04.:44:10.

are no more cuts to be made on pay. Any further cuts will hit teaching

:44:11.:44:15.

staff directly. Thank you. I have got a big

:44:16.:44:21.

secondary school in my constituency that has 67% of kids with pupil

:44:22.:44:26.

premium, that believes they will lose ?300,000. Does my friend

:44:27.:44:32.

believe that that action lives up to the rhetoric of our current Prime

:44:33.:44:37.

Minister? I absolutely agree with my honourable friend. I am sure the

:44:38.:44:42.

reason why this debate has been oversubscribed as because many

:44:43.:44:46.

honourable members have realised this national funding formula and

:44:47.:44:50.

the cuts are taking them over the edge and billing a crisis within our

:44:51.:44:54.

schools system. But her party's promise was not to spend more on

:44:55.:44:59.

school, it was to spend more on each pupil in real terms. Yet her

:45:00.:45:03.

Government will cut per pupil spending.

:45:04.:45:09.

Under Labour government education increased by 4.7% per year. The fact

:45:10.:45:19.

of the matter is quite simple, the Secretary of State and her party

:45:20.:45:22.

entered government on a manifesto that pledge to protect per-pupil

:45:23.:45:26.

funding. That promise is being broken. Over the last two years I

:45:27.:45:44.

have noticed the opposition seems to have an awful lot of money to spend.

:45:45.:45:51.

But in terms of more money, which is busy what she is suggesting, does

:45:52.:46:11.

she accept the IFF 's analysis of her manifesto commitments and hours

:46:12.:46:19.

that say they are effectively the two figures, the investment in

:46:20.:46:24.

education came to exactly the same figure? Does she accept that? I

:46:25.:46:26.

would say to the honourable member that the difference between the

:46:27.:46:28.

Labour manifesto and the Conservative manifesto is when

:46:29.:46:30.

Labour was in power in 1997, in 2001, in 2005, our manifesto promise

:46:31.:46:33.

that we pledge to increase spending on education. We delivered on it. It

:46:34.:46:35.

is the Conservative government that is not delivering on their promises,

:46:36.:46:37.

and they should hold them to account. Instead of proper funding

:46:38.:46:40.

in our schools and investment in our future we have seen years of

:46:41.:46:42.

regressive tax giveaways to the wealthiest another prime and Stan

:46:43.:46:44.

the Chancellor have threatened to turn Britain an offshore tax haven

:46:45.:46:46.

for billionaires, a bargain basement economy that loses billions of

:46:47.:46:49.

pounds in tax revenues each and every year. The government are faced

:46:50.:46:52.

with choices, Madam Deputy Speaker, and time and time again they make

:46:53.:46:57.

the wrong decision. I know that every member on all sides of the

:46:58.:47:03.

house will want every child in their constituency and in our country to

:47:04.:47:06.

get the best possible start in life, but if the government does not

:47:07.:47:10.

change its course, that will simply not be possible. So today is a

:47:11.:47:16.

chance for the secretary of state to tell us if she will keep her pledge

:47:17.:47:22.

and commit to provide the real term increase in school budgets that was

:47:23.:47:26.

promised. If she will not, then I call on all members of the house to

:47:27.:47:31.

send a clear message today that we will accept nothing but the best

:47:32.:47:36.

possible start in life for our country. I call the Secretary of

:47:37.:47:45.

State to remove the moment in the name of the Prime Minister. I beg to

:47:46.:47:52.

move the amendment. Members on all sides of this house can agree that

:47:53.:47:56.

we want to deliver a world-class education system that gives every

:47:57.:48:00.

young person the chance to make the most of their talents, no matter

:48:01.:48:03.

what their background or where they come from. Indeed that is the true

:48:04.:48:07.

value of an excellent education, it can open up opportunity and support

:48:08.:48:12.

young people to reach their true potential, certainly for me

:48:13.:48:15.

education was the route to having a much better life than my Terence

:48:16.:48:24.

have had. Our record in government speaks for itself in stock we have

:48:25.:48:29.

seen 1.8 million more children now in good or outstanding schools than

:48:30.:48:35.

they're worth in 2010, and indeed we are keeping our promise by

:48:36.:48:40.

protecting the core schools budget in real terms over the course of

:48:41.:48:45.

this Parliament. The Shadow Secretary of State talk about what

:48:46.:48:47.

parents want to see in schools, and what they don't want to is what the

:48:48.:48:51.

last Labour government record left them with, which was children

:48:52.:48:57.

leaving schools without literacy and you receive a need to succeed.

:48:58.:49:04.

Schroeder and leaving schools thinking they have strong grades

:49:05.:49:07.

were in fact what they were seeing was grade inflation. We have

:49:08.:49:12.

steadily sought to change that and to improve our education system, and

:49:13.:49:16.

for many young people we are now seeing them leaving our education

:49:17.:49:19.

system with a much better place to be successful in their future life.

:49:20.:49:26.

I will take one intervention. The right honourable lady will be aware

:49:27.:49:29.

that the Public Accounts Committee of what I am a member heard from the

:49:30.:49:32.

permanent Secretary Jonathan Slater on Monday in relation to the NAL

:49:33.:49:36.

report my honourable friend referred to. In that report, it does

:49:37.:49:39.

acknowledge what the right honourable lady has said that there

:49:40.:49:43.

is a real increase in the overall budget, but because there is a

:49:44.:49:47.

larger number of pupils than was envisaged, there would be an 8%

:49:48.:49:51.

reduction per pupil in funding. Do she agree with the NAL report and

:49:52.:49:55.

the acknowledgement of the permanent Secretary to that effect -- NAO

:49:56.:50:02.

report. It makes very clear there are cost pressures, I will come into

:50:03.:50:06.

that late in my opening speech, but it also makes clear there are

:50:07.:50:10.

significant scopes for efficiency in our school system as well. Although

:50:11.:50:18.

we are raising standards, nearly nine out of ten schools are rated

:50:19.:50:23.

good or outstanding. For many young people our education system is done

:50:24.:50:26.

at achieving the standards it needs to. I welcome her decision that we

:50:27.:50:35.

need fair funding. Does she agree that those schools in areas like my

:50:36.:50:38.

own that were at the bottom of the pile under the previous government

:50:39.:50:41.

was like formula need quite a step up under the next few years, because

:50:42.:50:48.

they were very badly done by? I do agree and we want to see every child

:50:49.:50:51.

at the same chance to do as well as they possibly can, no matter where

:50:52.:50:54.

they are growing up in our country or where they are starting from

:50:55.:50:58.

academically. And that is why we have to make sure that resources

:50:59.:51:04.

going into the system reflect the high ambitions we have got for every

:51:05.:51:07.

child wherever they are growing up and distributed as well to that

:51:08.:51:11.

effect. Because of this government's economic policy that has seen jobs

:51:12.:51:16.

and growth and careful management of public finances, that is how we have

:51:17.:51:20.

been able to protect the core schools budget in real terms over

:51:21.:51:23.

the course of this Parliament, and in fact the investment is the

:51:24.:51:28.

largest ever on record, totalling over 40%. David Cameron's promise

:51:29.:51:37.

was that the funding per pupil would be protected. That isn't being, as

:51:38.:51:41.

we have heard, and in my constituency because of the formula

:51:42.:51:45.

is being reduced further per pupil. Why is David Cameron's promise being

:51:46.:51:51.

broken? It's not, we are protecting also the per-pupil funding as well,

:51:52.:51:56.

and we know that in relation to making sure funding is fairly

:51:57.:52:02.

apportioned between schools, it is time that we look at the school

:52:03.:52:06.

funding formula to make sure we bring money in that is rectifying

:52:07.:52:09.

the current system that is unfair and out dated. At the moment all

:52:10.:52:19.

schools face funding that is not disputed evenly across the country

:52:20.:52:23.

and it does not take into account pupil needs. A school in Sutton will

:52:24.:52:28.

receive ?75 in extra funding for each pupil with English as a second

:52:29.:52:35.

language, but in Tower Hamlets that figure is ?3548. We know a primary

:52:36.:52:40.

school pupil eligible for free school meals and with English as an

:52:41.:52:46.

additional language attracts ?4902 in a Sussex, but just on the road in

:52:47.:52:52.

Brighton and Hove, it would attract more. We know that a secondary

:52:53.:52:56.

school class of 30 children with no additional needs facts ?112, ?100 of

:52:57.:53:06.

funding in Staffordshire. But ?122,000 in Stoke-on-Trent, a

:53:07.:53:12.

difference of ?10,400 for one class. So we know that parents and families

:53:13.:53:18.

see this unfairness playing out and it is simply untenable, but I

:53:19.:53:22.

believe, to stand up and say that these historic imbalances and

:53:23.:53:25.

differences in how we are funding our children are ones that we should

:53:26.:53:27.

accept, and I don't think anybody, I it is a consultation, I have

:53:28.:53:43.

extended the consultation period in the sense of it being 14 weeks

:53:44.:53:47.

rather than usual this time of 12 because this is complicated, and it

:53:48.:53:52.

is important that we have a measured proportionate rate around the right

:53:53.:53:57.

way to do the swarming -- funding formula. What is absence from the

:53:58.:54:00.

benches opposite is any alternative suggestions on a better way of doing

:54:01.:54:06.

this. I would be interested to hear the shadow bench wraps up whether

:54:07.:54:12.

they actually any alternative to the national funding formula, or indeed

:54:13.:54:15.

any other education policy for that matter. Can I in for my honourable

:54:16.:54:24.

friend that small primary schools in the countryside in my constituency

:54:25.:54:27.

very much welcome the fact spa city is taken into account now, and they

:54:28.:54:31.

feel they at least have a government that understands the needs of the

:54:32.:54:39.

countryside. He is absolutely right, the formula recognises different

:54:40.:54:40.

schools face different costs in particular. In rural areas

:54:41.:54:46.

especially. So that's positive factor recognises that rural schools

:54:47.:54:50.

often have a higher cost space, and it also sits alongside a lump sum

:54:51.:54:55.

approach built into the formula to make sure schools have the money

:54:56.:55:01.

they need to function effectively, and colleagues in rural seats will

:55:02.:55:06.

recognise that rural schools as a group are gaining 3% in our formula

:55:07.:55:10.

on average will stop in the primary schools in sparse communities they

:55:11.:55:17.

will gain 5.3% on average. How is it contested with a manifesto

:55:18.:55:21.

commitment to increase per capita spending in schools in Greenwich

:55:22.:55:26.

when secondary schools are facing nearly an average million pounds

:55:27.:55:30.

savings between now and 2019, and primary schools and average of over

:55:31.:55:37.

?200,000 each? 74 out of 77 schools facing those sort of cuts. How is

:55:38.:55:42.

that consistent with what the Conservative Party told parents in

:55:43.:55:47.

my borough before the last election? We said we would protect the core

:55:48.:55:51.

schools budget in real terms. That's exactly what we are doing. In

:55:52.:55:57.

relation to his local community, the change in the funding formula

:55:58.:55:59.

partially reflects that for a very long time we have been using

:56:00.:56:03.

deprivation data that is simply out of date, and it is important that we

:56:04.:56:09.

use up-to-date deprivation factors, and it is important that we

:56:10.:56:14.

recognise for example that across London in 2528% of children in

:56:15.:56:17.

London schools were on free school meals. That percentage has now

:56:18.:56:22.

fallen to 17%. It is right that we make sure that we have a consistent

:56:23.:56:26.

amount of investment in children from deprived communities. We know

:56:27.:56:31.

that is where the attainment gap is opened up but it is also important

:56:32.:56:36.

that we have that funding spread fairly and with up-to-date

:56:37.:56:45.

information. I was a schoolteacher during the Thatcher government and I

:56:46.:56:48.

remember my school running out of paper in around February, and myself

:56:49.:56:51.

and a colleague had to go into the attic of the library, tear pages out

:56:52.:56:56.

of books from the 1970s to give to our children to write on. I remember

:56:57.:57:00.

thinking how can you expect children to write in those circumstances? Is

:57:01.:57:05.

she proud of that record, and what does she feel it will do the staff

:57:06.:57:10.

morale and schools up and down the country to see this scale of cuts? I

:57:11.:57:19.

was not active in that time period, and I felt that my comp and the

:57:20.:57:24.

school gave me a great start in life that is setting me up to be

:57:25.:57:29.

hopefully able to make meaningful contributions to the economy and my

:57:30.:57:32.

local community. In the interest of making progress, we are introducing

:57:33.:57:36.

the national funding formula. I do recognise this as complex and also

:57:37.:57:40.

challenging. There is a reason why it has not been done for a long

:57:41.:57:44.

time, because it is very difficult we get this just right. That is why

:57:45.:57:47.

we are having a longer consultation, it is why we put out all of the

:57:48.:57:51.

details so that colleagues can look at all of the details, in terms of

:57:52.:57:55.

how it will affect their local communities, and then respond to

:57:56.:58:00.

that. I am very grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. In

:58:01.:58:05.

my constituency which was already one of the lowest funding local

:58:06.:58:08.

education authorities, two thirds of my schools are going to receive a

:58:09.:58:13.

cut, and a third is only going to get an increase of maximum .3%. This

:58:14.:58:20.

situation will undoubtedly lead to teacher losses and probably school

:58:21.:58:23.

closures. Would my right honourable friend undertake to have a radical

:58:24.:58:28.

look at what is only a consultation that needs radically overhauling? He

:58:29.:58:34.

is right, I recognise the concerns he has got and I am very happy to

:58:35.:58:40.

talk with him one-to-one about his particular local community, as I

:58:41.:58:43.

have done with other colleagues. But it is a consultation in order to

:58:44.:58:48.

make sure we can get this new formula right and it is important

:58:49.:58:51.

that it works effectively on the ground. Alongside making sure that

:58:52.:58:59.

we have protected the funding that is going to the deprived community

:59:00.:59:02.

so we can tackle the attainment gap through that mechanism. We also

:59:03.:59:08.

making sure our formula has an element of children starting from

:59:09.:59:12.

further behind for whatever reason, so low priority and properly

:59:13.:59:14.

addressed in the formula to make sure wherever a child is in our

:59:15.:59:17.

country, if they need additional investment to help them catch up,

:59:18.:59:22.

that investment will be there. The second stage of the consultation on

:59:23.:59:26.

the funding formula runs until 22nd of March was that we want to hear

:59:27.:59:31.

from as many school governors, schools themselves, local

:59:32.:59:33.

authorities and parents themselves. I know colleagues across the house

:59:34.:59:36.

will also want to contribute to that debate. As I said, we put a lot of

:59:37.:59:40.

data alongside the consultation because we want to make sure people

:59:41.:59:44.

have the information that they need to be able to respond.

:59:45.:59:50.

It will mean we can have much more informed debates in this House about

:59:51.:59:56.

how we want to fund or schools and the relative balance we want to see

:59:57.:00:04.

of funding between core funding, deprivation and also low attainment

:00:05.:00:08.

and sparsity. I am grateful to moil for giving

:00:09.:00:14.

way. -- mole. I strongly support her in seeking to achieve fair funding.

:00:15.:00:22.

It is the right thing do it is the worst funded constituency shire.

:00:23.:00:24.

There will be little help for secondary schools and the primary

:00:25.:00:30.

schools are going to lose out. When it's the worst funded shire

:00:31.:00:32.

authority, how can that be right? Will she undertake to have a look at

:00:33.:00:38.

the draft allocation again before it is finalised? Well, he will want to

:00:39.:00:44.

contribute to the consultation that is under way as well. It is

:00:45.:00:48.

important we hear from as many colleagues and indeed schools around

:00:49.:00:52.

the country as we can, as I said, we have put out a lot of additional

:00:53.:00:58.

information in order to have an informed debate across the House and

:00:59.:01:01.

this will form part of that. I will make a little progress because I

:01:02.:01:04.

know other colleagues want to be able have to have their say on

:01:05.:01:08.

behalf of their local communities. I did want to come on the the broader

:01:09.:01:12.

cost pressures I know schools are face, many of those pressures come

:01:13.:01:17.

from steps that we have taken for example on introducing the

:01:18.:01:22.

apprenticeship Levy, which is going to benefit millions of young people

:01:23.:01:26.

over the coming years but also schools as well, through training up

:01:27.:01:32.

and developing existing staff. We have introducing the national living

:01:33.:01:34.

wage and that will benefit low paid workers who are working in schools,

:01:35.:01:39.

as well as in other organisations, and I think that is the right thing

:01:40.:01:45.

for us to do. But in terms of how my department can support schools,

:01:46.:01:49.

around the country, in driving greater efficiencies, I think there

:01:50.:01:54.

is a role we can play and we have done analysis to understand the

:01:55.:02:00.

different cost bases of different schools that are operating with

:02:01.:02:03.

similar circumstances, as the National Audit Office report set out

:02:04.:02:06.

we believe it can be be made. I give way.

:02:07.:02:10.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. I appreciate

:02:11.:02:15.

there is a busy debate. I would like to speak up briefly for London. What

:02:16.:02:19.

I need your assurance, I am sure you have touched on what the form of the

:02:20.:02:24.

school funding formula is going to have on the negative effect of

:02:25.:02:29.

schools in London, some of which do face intolerable pressures. Well, it

:02:30.:02:33.

has been important to I think recognise two things, the first is

:02:34.:02:39.

that under the proposed formula that we are clent consulting on London

:02:40.:02:43.

schools, purely because the cost pressures they face in terms of the

:02:44.:02:46.

underlying cost base of running in and London, but then of course the

:02:47.:02:50.

fact that although the deprivation levels have reduced they are still

:02:51.:02:56.

comparatively high. London schools will be receiving 30% more, but she

:02:57.:03:00.

of course will want to speak up on behalf of her own community, but

:03:01.:03:05.

this is about making sure that we fund the right amount of deprivation

:03:06.:03:10.

in relation to current data and we don't fund deprivation in relation

:03:11.:03:17.

to data from, you know perhaps five or ten years ago. Let me finalise by

:03:18.:03:23.

talking a bit about the fact that we do believe that we can work as a

:03:24.:03:27.

department with schools to help them make the best use of their resource,

:03:28.:03:31.

I want to see every single pound we are putting into the school system

:03:32.:03:37.

improving standards as having the maximum impact for pupils and we

:03:38.:03:40.

know we can work with schools to make sure having done this record

:03:41.:03:44.

funding, they then are able to use it to maximum impact, and indeed, I

:03:45.:03:49.

would point to for example York, one of the lowest, has been one of the

:03:50.:03:53.

lowest funned authorities in the country and yet 92% of its schools

:03:54.:03:58.

are good or outstanding, so we know that we can make progress in

:03:59.:04:02.

education while making efficiencies as well. Grateful to her giving way.

:04:03.:04:10.

I support what she is trying to do since Wiltshire is one of the worst

:04:11.:04:13.

funded Education Authorities in the country. Will she look again at the

:04:14.:04:18.

sparsity factor, school governors are crunching the figures and some

:04:19.:04:23.

are saying they wonder about the future viability of small schools in

:04:24.:04:30.

rural locations. He is right and indeed we looked in the formula to

:04:31.:04:35.

make sure we did introduce a sparsity formula. Not all Louth had

:04:36.:04:42.

one, what we are doing is making sure it is there for every school.

:04:43.:04:46.

We put in the lump sum formula, but I think we got the stage with

:04:47.:04:50.

developing the formula where the only way we could continue to

:04:51.:04:54.

improve it was to actually ask people what they thought about it

:04:55.:04:57.

and that is why the consultation is so important. It is important we get

:04:58.:05:01.

it right but I recognise that this is a complicated formula that has to

:05:02.:05:06.

work for schools in very different situations round the country. And

:05:07.:05:09.

that is why this debate is so important, and it is right we are

:05:10.:05:16.

taking the time to steadily after the face one consultation, to help

:05:17.:05:21.

us respond to finalising it in a way it will mean it can work and have

:05:22.:05:26.

longevity over time. Let me finish by simply saying that we are going

:05:27.:05:34.

to work with schools, to hem them improve efficiency, we have

:05:35.:05:38.

published a school buying strategy that sees us putting in place

:05:39.:05:43.

national deals so we can make sure schools are getting the best deals

:05:44.:05:47.

on things take utilities they need. Putting in place buying in digital

:05:48.:05:52.

hubs so close to schools there are strong procurement teams and

:05:53.:05:54.

approaches that means they have advice when they need it. Setting up

:05:55.:05:58.

school business management networks so we work with the people who are

:05:59.:06:02.

in schools driving efficiencies to share best practise and improve

:06:03.:06:06.

performances, and overtime, I believe that we really can take some

:06:07.:06:12.

steps forward on this. So, we are making sure that funding is going

:06:13.:06:20.

into our schools. We are making sure our curriculum is strong and turning

:06:21.:06:23.

out young people with the knowledge and skills they need to be

:06:24.:06:27.

successful. It is not the only part of our education policy. We are

:06:28.:06:31.

investing in apprenticeship, reforming technical education, we

:06:32.:06:35.

are going to make sure that this is a government that ends up able to

:06:36.:06:38.

say that every young person, where ever they are growing up, is able to

:06:39.:06:43.

do their best and reach their full potential. I hope that over the

:06:44.:06:47.

course of this debate, colleagues will recognise that is the strategy

:06:48.:06:53.

and that is what we will deliver. The original question was on the

:06:54.:06:56.

paper. The question is that the original

:06:57.:07:00.

words stand part of the question. Fiona MacTaggart.

:07:01.:07:07.

I am sure in the characterisation of different education authorities

:07:08.:07:09.

which the Secretary of State would run through, she would say Slough is

:07:10.:07:15.

unfairly generously funded. I want to speak about the hundreds of

:07:16.:07:20.

pupils in Slough, who get no funding at all, for their education. How can

:07:21.:07:25.

that be, you think? And I think it's a very serious issue which is not

:07:26.:07:30.

properly addressed by her proposed fair funding formula. It is about

:07:31.:07:33.

areas with swift growth, like Slough. We have been in the top ten

:07:34.:07:40.

for authorities for growth in pupil numbers for years and we don't get

:07:41.:07:45.

paid for extra children o who arrive after the October census date until

:07:46.:07:49.

18 months later. Locally, the way that is dealt with

:07:50.:07:56.

is a top slice of the DSG, the direct schools grant of 1.5 million

:07:57.:08:02.

to fund classes in schools. Obviously in other authorities they

:08:03.:08:07.

have facing growth in pupil numbers but in most places the additional

:08:08.:08:11.

pupils aren't significant, new arrivals after October tend to be

:08:12.:08:17.

balanced by departures, and most of the extra children are born in

:08:18.:08:23.

families which were already there, and so apply at the usual time for

:08:24.:08:26.

schools. That doesn't happen in Slough. Slough. When I asked schools

:08:27.:08:32.

a the number it was stark. One had 13 children leave but 23 new

:08:33.:08:37.

starters, one was completely new to English, others had eEnglish as a

:08:38.:08:42.

second language. To more coming from overseas start next week. A

:08:43.:08:48.

secondary school estimates that the age, the pupil formula, for the

:08:49.:08:54.

extra 13 extra pupils who arrived after the Census date in 2015/16

:08:55.:09:09.

would have been worth ?49937. In the current year, ?3950595. That has

:09:10.:09:14.

gone down because that school has been subject to the minimum income

:09:15.:09:19.

formula, which I call the maximum cut formula, because that is the

:09:20.:09:23.

case for the secondary schools in Slough, another primary school

:09:24.:09:27.

opened two extra classes in November 2015, to accommodate children new to

:09:28.:09:33.

the town. I now has 63 pupils above their standard number. The bulge

:09:34.:09:38.

classes are funded by the top slice of the dedicated schools grant but

:09:39.:09:42.

that only lasts a year and the extra pupils won't be funded by the DFE

:09:43.:09:48.

until next year, so this year two whole classes are being educated in

:09:49.:09:51.

one primary school with no capitation funding, and we aren't

:09:52.:09:54.

talking about children who are easy to teach. As well as children who

:09:55.:10:04.

arrive... Thank you. The honourable lady is making what I think is a

:10:05.:10:08.

unique and important point about places like Slough, does she agree

:10:09.:10:12.

with me that this showings how the Government is yet to properly

:10:13.:10:18.

listen? Indeed there is a hint in the new funding formula they might

:10:19.:10:21.

do something about this. There is no clarity about what and there is

:10:22.:10:27.

absolutely urgent, because these comparisons per pupil, between

:10:28.:10:32.

different authorities, are not true, the pupils in the areas which

:10:33.:10:36.

historically have been well funded and which are facing the largest

:10:37.:10:40.

cuts, in places like Slough and London are the places with the

:10:41.:10:45.

largest number of the free students which are not being paid for at all.

:10:46.:10:50.

Minister for schools, also knows about the massive problems we face

:10:51.:10:58.

in teacher recruitment. Five geography teacher advertisement in

:10:59.:11:01.

Slough had been advertised over the last few money, not one single

:11:02.:11:09.

applicant. The committee won't make English of which we have a shortage

:11:10.:11:14.

of teachers, a job we can apply for teachers for overseas, we are in a

:11:15.:11:19.

crisis and frankly, at the moment, the department isn't responding to

:11:20.:11:22.

the real needs of the community that I have the privilege to represent. I

:11:23.:11:29.

really want answers on this now. Thank you. The very fact we have

:11:30.:11:35.

having this debate is proof that a huge step forward is taking place

:11:36.:11:38.

there is a real proposal on the table. We should salute the

:11:39.:11:41.

Government for getting that far. Obviously, we are in a consultation

:11:42.:11:45.

process, the Education Select Committee is part of that process in

:11:46.:11:51.

a sense pause we will be seeing the Minister of State for schools

:11:52.:11:53.

shortly, and many of the points I am about to make we will expand then,

:11:54.:11:59.

but I do think that if we have a situation where counties like

:12:00.:12:01.

Gloucestershire are no further forward and some schools within that

:12:02.:12:05.

County are going backwards in terms of funding, then there are issues to

:12:06.:12:10.

explore. One of them, I think, is the need to effectively lift the

:12:11.:12:13.

baseline through a number of ways. I am going to suggest three. I think

:12:14.:12:19.

that we have to look at the deprivation block, in line with

:12:20.:12:22.

pupil premium, because I think that the two things are clearly related

:12:23.:12:27.

and it would be wise to consider the impact of pupil premium within this

:12:28.:12:31.

question of actually the deprivation assessment. So I think there is

:12:32.:12:36.

scope there for to lift the baseline. Second area, is of course

:12:37.:12:42.

the question of small schools, we all want support small schools, but

:12:43.:12:46.

there is a ratio here which I think we need to explore. It St that ratio

:12:47.:12:52.

between what we think is a small school and a slightly larger school

:12:53.:12:55.

might well be something we need to look at.

:12:56.:13:02.

Because the impact of statistics can have consequences which are

:13:03.:13:04.

unpredictable and certainly unintended. I think this is possibly

:13:05.:13:11.

the case in terms of small schools. And the third area is the 3% floor.

:13:12.:13:19.

There must be a way of making sure that the authorities which have had

:13:20.:13:24.

historic problems with underfunding can have some kind of way out of

:13:25.:13:30.

that, through recalibrating the 3% floor. I know those ideas are

:13:31.:13:35.

complicated in the context of these reforms but it is necessary to

:13:36.:13:41.

demonstrate that we really a committed to providing a free, a

:13:42.:13:46.

fair funding. If we think carefully about the impact of the various

:13:47.:13:50.

measures I have taken, in conjunction with the wider question

:13:51.:13:54.

of the objectives of this new funding system, we may well deliver

:13:55.:13:57.

for our children, exactly what we want. Now, of course... No, I am not

:13:58.:14:03.

going to give way because there are too many people who wish to

:14:04.:14:06.

contribute. In an ideal world we want to spend more on education, and

:14:07.:14:10.

when this government continues to grow the economy as I am sure it

:14:11.:14:15.

will, with or without Brexit, that will be achieved. But we have got to

:14:16.:14:20.

be realistic about the size of the cake making sure that everybody has

:14:21.:14:28.

an appropriate slice. The department's produced school by

:14:29.:14:32.

school aanalysis of the proposed funding formula, for schools in

:14:33.:14:36.

Liverpool the results are worrying, 80% of forecast to lose funding. We

:14:37.:14:42.

are set to lose 1.3 million in the first year 18/19. When it is fully

:14:43.:14:47.

implemented, unless it changes that will increase to over ?3 million.

:14:48.:14:54.

I know that consultation is underway but it is important for schools in

:14:55.:14:59.

my constituency that they know as soon as possible so they can plan

:15:00.:15:03.

the budget for the future. I welcome the fact the Liverpool settlement

:15:04.:15:07.

will mean more money for high needs funding but there is concern from

:15:08.:15:11.

the council and schools that this high needs funding would be

:15:12.:15:14.

available in time to alleviate the cuts in the schools block. Can I ask

:15:15.:15:19.

the minister when he responds what timescale the government envisages

:15:20.:15:24.

Ford Field implementation of the new formula, in particularly high needs

:15:25.:15:30.

funding element? Elderly age funding is vital to the life chances of

:15:31.:15:35.

pupils, and I have two Nursery schools in my constituency both

:15:36.:15:39.

rated as outstanding by Ofsted, both now very concerned about the

:15:40.:15:43.

government's plans for nursery school funding. I welcome assurances

:15:44.:15:48.

that long-term funding will be secured for nursery schools so they

:15:49.:15:53.

can continue their excellent work in providing quality Everly years

:15:54.:15:57.

education. When I saw the motion today I wrote to the heads of

:15:58.:16:00.

schools in my constituency asking them further concerns. Blackpool

:16:01.:16:06.

Park infant school told me about their need for repairs. They are

:16:07.:16:10.

using four mobile classrooms which are three years over their shelf

:16:11.:16:14.

life. The school doesn't have the money to replace them because of the

:16:15.:16:22.

financial pressures they face. Thank you. I also like my friend wrote to

:16:23.:16:28.

local schools and does my friend agree with me that given the

:16:29.:16:33.

importance of this it is unsurprising so many are wanting to

:16:34.:16:37.

speak today. The financial pressures the school spoke about the ones

:16:38.:16:42.

highlighted in the opposition motion today. Secondary schools are also

:16:43.:16:47.

facing the pinch. The head of a college in my constituency said

:16:48.:16:50.

small budget lines are being nibbled away and then the end this will have

:16:51.:16:55.

massive cumulative impact. A head teacher told me that she is worried

:16:56.:17:00.

about the impact of budget cuts on staffing levels, particularly with

:17:01.:17:05.

regard to support staff. Pupils with special needs have particular

:17:06.:17:10.

challenges for school budgets. The head of crocs that community primary

:17:11.:17:13.

School raised with me the issue of raising those whose needs are more

:17:14.:17:20.

complex. A headteacher of a very good special School in my

:17:21.:17:22.

constituency is worried that the imposition of a national funding

:17:23.:17:25.

model for children with additional needs has taken away local

:17:26.:17:30.

flexibility to be able to move money around. Another of the fantastic

:17:31.:17:36.

special skills in my constituency is Bank view primary school. They are

:17:37.:17:42.

concerned about the impact of cuts elsewhere in the public sector and

:17:43.:17:45.

the headteacher said to me, how are we able to make pupils affected

:17:46.:17:49.

members of society who are unable to be employed at support agencies such

:17:50.:17:53.

as this are having their funding reduced. I encourage the madness

:17:54.:17:59.

when he responds, delighted to give way. I am very grateful and he is

:18:00.:18:03.

making very reasonable points but does he recognise that for small

:18:04.:18:08.

cities like my constituency it is fundamentally an equal to receive

:18:09.:18:13.

per-pupil funding, about 50% less than the Metropolitan Avia he

:18:14.:18:19.

represents and it is right to address that. I recognise it is

:18:20.:18:23.

hugely challenging to ensure fair funding for all pupils in all parts

:18:24.:18:27.

of the country, but the cuts I am referring to and that my honourable

:18:28.:18:32.

friend talks about are not to do with national funding formula. I

:18:33.:18:35.

addressed it because it is an important issue and because it is

:18:36.:18:39.

contained in the government's amendment to the motion, but the

:18:40.:18:42.

motion is about the funding pressures that schools face before

:18:43.:18:45.

the moment he and of the national funding formula, and we need to

:18:46.:18:53.

address that as well. Like him I consulted with my head teachers and

:18:54.:18:59.

the headteacher of Brickell primary school, 55% pupil premium, fire am I

:19:00.:19:04.

going to find ?230,000 out of next year's budget?. Those on the other

:19:05.:19:08.

side have duty to help headteacher at like this? My honourable friend

:19:09.:19:13.

is absolutely right and schools across the country in constituency

:19:14.:19:16.

is and all parts of the country are facing these challenges. In the end,

:19:17.:19:21.

my view is that investment in education should be a priority and

:19:22.:19:24.

that is something we should be able to agree on a cross-party basis and

:19:25.:19:29.

I am running out of time. I urge the Minister to listen to the concerns

:19:30.:19:32.

of skills in Liverpool and elsewhere so that school budgets are

:19:33.:19:38.

protected. It is vital that schools have the money they need to be able

:19:39.:19:41.

to deliver the quality education that children and young people

:19:42.:19:50.

deserve. Thank you. Last week I was fortunate enough to secure a debate

:19:51.:19:55.

in Westminster Hall on funding for schools in Devon at which was well

:19:56.:19:57.

supported by my colleagues from across the county and in which

:19:58.:20:04.

several going back several others, including my honourable friend who

:20:05.:20:07.

cannot be here tonight, made clear that unless there are some changes

:20:08.:20:10.

we would find it extremely difficult to support the government. It was

:20:11.:20:14.

therefore with some interest that I was made aware of this debate this

:20:15.:20:17.

afternoon and I thought it was going to be in my case a rare occasion

:20:18.:20:22.

when I would not be able to support the government. I have studied the

:20:23.:20:27.

motion and the amendment carefully and having heard, I have to say, the

:20:28.:20:32.

opening remarks of the honourable lady for Ashton-under-Lyne, beef

:20:33.:20:39.

Flex can relax, and I support the government amendment and they say to

:20:40.:20:43.

her gently, although she was not in this place during Labour's rule, but

:20:44.:20:49.

if she had not been, like seven and the bill, asleep under the tree, she

:20:50.:20:54.

might have noticed that in the period between 1997 and 2010 it was

:20:55.:20:58.

a Labour government which exacerbated the educational funding

:20:59.:21:04.

gap between rural and urban areas. I would say this to the House as well.

:21:05.:21:07.

The team we have in the department at the moment, the secretary of

:21:08.:21:15.

state and her schools Minister, are an excellent team, and they have

:21:16.:21:18.

annexed territory and extraordinarily difficult situations

:21:19.:21:21.

which they are attempting to resolve in early as possible. Given the

:21:22.:21:26.

fact, and it is worth remembering and they know the honourable lady

:21:27.:21:30.

wasn't in the House in 2010, but had she been she would have realised as

:21:31.:21:34.

did many of her colleagues that the Exchequer was left completely empty.

:21:35.:21:39.

Labourer blew the economy and blew their credibility and it wasn't

:21:40.:21:44.

until 2015 that we saw some rebalancing with the coalition

:21:45.:21:47.

government providing a much-needed boost in funding for more rural

:21:48.:21:51.

schools. I would say to my right honourable friend the Secretary of

:21:52.:21:56.

State, this is a consultation and at the moment it is a consultation

:21:57.:22:01.

which me and my colleagues in the South West feel passionately about

:22:02.:22:04.

and I am grateful and I understand the schools minister has agreed to

:22:05.:22:08.

see a delegation of head teachers from Devon secondary and primary

:22:09.:22:11.

schools, because the situation for us is bleak at the moment. Devon has

:22:12.:22:17.

historically been one of the lowest funded educational authorities in

:22:18.:22:19.

the country and we were looking forward, we were told there would be

:22:20.:22:24.

a reassessment, we assumed this was going to benefit as after all those

:22:25.:22:28.

years, all the campaigning we had done over decades, in order to get a

:22:29.:22:32.

fairer deal, we didn't assume the result of this consultation would

:22:33.:22:35.

mean that actually we were worse off. If implemented, the national

:22:36.:22:42.

funding formula proposals would result in 62% of Devon's schools

:22:43.:22:48.

gaining, 37% losing out and 1% remaining the same. The proposals

:22:49.:22:53.

would reduce the overall schools funding by ?500,000 for first year

:22:54.:23:02.

but more of that later. Thank you. After seven years of Liberal

:23:03.:23:05.

Democrat and Tory cuts in my community, the government has failed

:23:06.:23:08.

to meet its deficit reduction target and is back doing all it knows,

:23:09.:23:13.

further cuts, this time targeting children are my constituency. I

:23:14.:23:16.

don't believe children should suffer for the government's failure.

:23:17.:23:22.

Southwark schools perform above the national average but face challenges

:23:23.:23:27.

so I was surprised to see my borough targeted five million and cuts by

:23:28.:23:31.

this government. Will he accept that this will end the recruitment crisis

:23:32.:23:36.

amongst the teaching body? Absolutely and especially in London.

:23:37.:23:39.

My constituency is even worse affected as a borough because using

:23:40.:23:46.

Department statistics my schools are the worst affected anywhere in the

:23:47.:23:49.

country. The government has claimed this was fair. There are 35 schools

:23:50.:23:53.

in my constituency and those losing out include Baker's College, City of

:23:54.:24:00.

London Academy, English maters, Notre Dame, all three Saint Josephs,

:24:01.:24:10.

St John's Catholic, Saint Jude is, St Paul's, Townsend and victory, and

:24:11.:24:19.

if anyone was keeping tally, 35! Every single school in my

:24:20.:24:23.

constituency loses out! Not one benefits under the government's

:24:24.:24:29.

proposals. Does he agree that if the proposal was implemented, to remove

:24:30.:24:37.

the 3% protection, the position for schools in his constituency would be

:24:38.:24:40.

a great deal worse? I completely agree. Those cuts the government

:24:41.:24:45.

have put forward have led periods to get in touch with me to say what it

:24:46.:24:49.

is about Southwark child unless government does not like and why is

:24:50.:24:52.

my constituency particularly targeted? It prevents schools

:24:53.:24:57.

ability to manage the challenge they face and damages the prospect of

:24:58.:25:02.

children and families. The Department figures do not improve

:25:03.:25:08.

costs that schools cannot ignore, pension contributions, higher

:25:09.:25:10.

National Insurance Contributions Bill which means figures suggest

:25:11.:25:13.

Southwark as a borrower loses ?12.5 million. Skills in my constituency

:25:14.:25:21.

lose ?6.9 million alone. Ministers push forward with these plans they

:25:22.:25:29.

will feel families and children and undermine parents' aspirations for

:25:30.:25:33.

their children, undermine future opportunities for Southwark children

:25:34.:25:36.

and prospects for the country overall. The government must rethink

:25:37.:25:39.

this blatant attack on future opportunities.

:25:40.:25:45.

Thank you. I welcome this consultation and the review because

:25:46.:25:50.

in my constituency we will see increases of 2.6% or ?1.3 million.

:25:51.:26:01.

42 of my 54 schools will see an increase, that 77%, and some of the

:26:02.:26:06.

increases are significant. New York primary School will see an increase

:26:07.:26:15.

of 11.4%, the theme that is running through these increases is that

:26:16.:26:23.

these schools have been historically underfunded by the government

:26:24.:26:26.

opposite and this government is recognising the challenges that

:26:27.:26:31.

rural living present for local schools. This is an extremely rule

:26:32.:26:42.

constituency with fewer than one person per hectare, and on the

:26:43.:26:48.

course by have amongst the most 3% most deprived communities in the

:26:49.:26:53.

country. They deserve to have a better funding deal and this is what

:26:54.:26:56.

this government is trying to achieve. This is not about the Tory

:26:57.:27:03.

shires as some, not all, but some members opposite like to paint the

:27:04.:27:05.

picture. This is about making the funding fairer and that has been the

:27:06.:27:12.

case historically. I echo the concerns of colleagues that the

:27:13.:27:15.

laudable principle of including sparsity must work on the ground and

:27:16.:27:20.

I know that the Minister will meet me to discuss individual schools and

:27:21.:27:22.

he has already agreed to make sure that the principle applies. I also

:27:23.:27:28.

recognise that the 12 skills are my constituency that faced the creases

:27:29.:27:32.

face that challenge and they don't underestimate that but again I look

:27:33.:27:35.

forward to discussing that with the Minister. There has been much.

:27:36.:27:40.

Opposite regarding cuts. When we hear the figures about the Leader of

:27:41.:27:46.

the Opposition having children whose education is funded to the tune of

:27:47.:27:50.

more than ?6,000 per student, whereas in Lincolnshire and it is

:27:51.:27:56.

?4379 per student, I simply don't understand how members opposite can

:27:57.:28:01.

claim that that is fair and is not deserving of review. I say that

:28:02.:28:06.

understanding only too well the challenges of education. I am

:28:07.:28:08.

delighted to hear my honourable friend Mick those assumptions

:28:09.:28:12.

because what she is highlighting is that schools like those in Kent like

:28:13.:28:17.

Tonbridge Grammar what great reputations are massively

:28:18.:28:19.

underfunded and this will go some way to making that fairer. This is

:28:20.:28:24.

about making sure that the cake is just cut a little more clearly than

:28:25.:28:28.

it is at the moment. And finally, I am conscious of the time and I

:28:29.:28:35.

apologise, finally may I think the teachers, the governor, the staff of

:28:36.:28:40.

my schools, my 54 local schools. I look forward to meeting all of them

:28:41.:28:46.

before the general election... It is my promise! And I love it when they

:28:47.:28:52.

come to the House of Commons because there's nothing else, bringing our

:28:53.:28:55.

schools into this place to show them how it works, that is how we get

:28:56.:28:59.

young people interested in our democracy. Thank you.

:29:00.:29:08.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Schools are already facing real

:29:09.:29:15.

terms cuts to their budgets and now forever a single one of the 26

:29:16.:29:20.

schools in my constituency, the new national funding formula represents

:29:21.:29:25.

a further blow of the axe. For every pupil in Nottingham city, funding is

:29:26.:29:31.

cut by an average of ?650 while more affluent areas are expected to gain.

:29:32.:29:35.

This isn't just bad for children in Nottingham, it is bad for your

:29:36.:29:39.

country and society. According to the latest annual report there are

:29:40.:29:42.

now twice as many inadequate secondary schools in the Midlands

:29:43.:29:45.

and the North as in the south and east.

:29:46.:29:54.

I support the principle of fair bunked funding but not at the

:29:55.:30:03.

expense of children in cities, where we face the challenge of closing a

:30:04.:30:08.

gap in educational outcomes between children from poorer homes, and

:30:09.:30:16.

those in wealthier ones. Would she confirm that Nottingham's schools

:30:17.:30:21.

have failed for decades under decades of Nottingham being run by a

:30:22.:30:28.

Labour council? Nottingham schools, every single one of the secondary

:30:29.:30:33.

schools in my constituency is not the responsibility of Nottingham

:30:34.:30:36.

City Council, they are academies and sadly some are still not improving

:30:37.:30:44.

and we face, already face intense funding pressure, the IFS tell us

:30:45.:30:48.

that all schools face an 8% real terms cut to the budgets as as a

:30:49.:30:55.

result of higher National Insurance contribution, increases in pension

:30:56.:30:58.

funds. The National Audit Office provided evidence of growing

:30:59.:31:02.

financial pressures, particularly in secondary schools, where 59% of

:31:03.:31:07.

maintained schools are and 61% of academies were in deficit last year,

:31:08.:31:11.

they concluded that the departments approach meant schools could make

:31:12.:31:15.

spending choices, that put educational outcomes at risk. Now

:31:16.:31:19.

local head teachers have told me what it will mean. Fewer teacher,

:31:20.:31:26.

less pastoral support. More contact time for teachers, less choice at

:31:27.:31:30.

Key Stage Four and five. It will be The Breakfast Club, the trip, the

:31:31.:31:36.

reading sessions for parent, the extra curricula sports culture and

:31:37.:31:38.

arts activities that will be the first to go. Things this can make

:31:39.:31:42.

all the difference to children are going up in poverty. I know that

:31:43.:31:46.

Nottingham has a number of schools that need to do better and yet it is

:31:47.:31:51.

some of these very schools that are losing out under the Government's

:31:52.:31:54.

new national funding formula. Learning is not a matter of chance,

:31:55.:31:59.

the quality of school leadership and teaching is critical. Yet there is a

:32:00.:32:04.

national head teacher shortage and a teacher recruitment crisis. And as

:32:05.:32:08.

the social market foundation found, schools in deprived areas are more

:32:09.:32:12.

likely to have fewer experienced teacher, more likely to have

:32:13.:32:16.

teachers without formal teaching qualification more likely to have

:32:17.:32:20.

teacher without degrees in relevant subjects, and more, I can't hear

:32:21.:32:24.

what the Secretary of State is chuntering at, more likely to have

:32:25.:32:27.

higher teacher turn over than schools elsewhere. These latest

:32:28.:32:33.

funding changes will make school improvement harder and not easier.

:32:34.:32:37.

Madame Deputy Speaker the Secretary of State and ministers say they want

:32:38.:32:40.

to see more good and outstanding schools, it is a noble ambition,

:32:41.:32:45.

it's what I want for every child this my constituency. I am proud of

:32:46.:32:50.

the work that Nottingham's educational improvement board is

:32:51.:32:53.

doing to try to make it is is a reality. Creating more good schools

:32:54.:32:59.

requires more than ambition, actions speak louder than words and right

:33:00.:33:03.

now actions must mean adequate funding too.

:33:04.:33:09.

It is a great pleasure to have caught your eye so early on in this

:33:10.:33:13.

debate and to speak in favour of the amendment and against the motion.

:33:14.:33:18.

The motion is wrong. This is a novel point. The motion says schools

:33:19.:33:25.

funding cuts. That is wrong, as a matter-of-fact, because this

:33:26.:33:28.

Government, this year alone, is spending more than ?40 billion on

:33:29.:33:33.

our schools, up and down this land, which is more than historically ever

:33:34.:33:38.

before under any government, so the motion is wrong, and in fact. And

:33:39.:33:44.

there was a time, there was a time when the party opposite was in

:33:45.:33:49.

favour of fairer funding. For as recently as March 2010, the then

:33:50.:33:54.

Labour government was looking at a funding formula, a national funding

:33:55.:33:59.

formula, but as ever it has taken a Conservative Government to grasp the

:34:00.:34:03.

nettle, I would be delighted. I thank him for giving way. Way. At a

:34:04.:34:08.

time when the Labour Government trying to bring in the funding

:34:09.:34:13.

formula the Capita was ?4,000 a head but most was in PIFs.

:34:14.:34:19.

I am grateful for that invitation. For that intervention and if we look

:34:20.:34:25.

at the per capita, the pupil funding figure, that is where it is most

:34:26.:34:32.

important. The honourable gentleman for Bermondsey and Southwark,

:34:33.:34:36.

mentioned fairness and he mentioned deprivation, his constituency, in

:34:37.:34:42.

his constituency, pupils receive ?6450 per pupil, in my constituency,

:34:43.:34:50.

in Poole and Dorset they receive 4100 and ?4200 per pupil. If this, I

:34:51.:34:58.

would be delighted to give way. One academy head said as a result of

:34:59.:35:02.

funding pressures now he is having to cut art and tech class, that is

:35:03.:35:09.

today. How will 100 ?100 pow thousand xxxx,000 cut help? In

:35:10.:35:13.

relation to the per pupil funding the point I am making is one of

:35:14.:35:20.

fairness. If was done an index of deprivation I could look my

:35:21.:35:22.

constituencies in the eye and I could say that is why you are

:35:23.:35:27.

receive receiving on average ?2,000 per pupil less than you otherwise

:35:28.:35:33.

would be. I will do briefly. I thank him very much giving way. I have got

:35:34.:35:39.

in at last. At the expense of my time. It is grossly unNair the

:35:40.:35:45.

pupils of Somerset have had on average ?2,000 per pupil less than

:35:46.:35:50.

the national average. We have grateful for the Government

:35:51.:35:54.

increasing funding by 4.5%. This will make it fair, when we, it has

:35:55.:36:01.

been grossly unfair historically. I agree with what my honourable friend

:36:02.:36:05.

has said. If there were an explanation, if it had been on the

:36:06.:36:09.

basis of an index of deprivation, I could support it but it is not. It

:36:10.:36:15.

is on historical anomaly, that is why I support the principle of

:36:16.:36:19.

fairer funding, but when we look at the detail of the fairer funding, I

:36:20.:36:22.

want to make two points. Firstly those schools that are right down at

:36:23.:36:25.

the bottom. The local authorities such as Poole and Dorset, I suggest

:36:26.:36:29.

should not be seeing any reduction in funding, so when I respond to the

:36:30.:36:34.

consultation which I very much look forward to doing, I will make that

:36:35.:36:38.

point to the minister. The other point I will make is in relation to

:36:39.:36:42.

grammar schools. I welcome what the Government is doing in a move

:36:43.:36:46.

towards grammar schools, giving our parents a greater choice and we know

:36:47.:36:50.

it is popular and parents want to make the choice that is best for

:36:51.:36:54.

them, and for their children, so I welcome the move and the direction

:36:55.:36:59.

of travel for the Government. But it does seem odd that 103 out of the

:37:00.:37:05.

163 grammar schools appear to be losing out under this formula. I am

:37:06.:37:11.

grateful. I echo all he saying and similar willy in Wiltshire we see a

:37:12.:37:16.

2.6 increase, the two grammar schools are two out of the ten

:37:17.:37:20.

schools that are suffering and this needs further examination.

:37:21.:37:23.

I am grateful. I see the minister in his place and I know he is listening

:37:24.:37:28.

carefully. What I suggest is that the delegation of members of

:37:29.:37:34.

bafflement, I know this will gladden the minister's heart, a delegation

:37:35.:37:38.

of MPs, to come and see him, I o know he has been receptive in the

:37:39.:37:42.

past, I know he will be again in the future. That is why I support not

:37:43.:37:47.

only the principle offer funding but the fact we have a chance of a

:37:48.:37:50.

second second stage running to 22nd March. With the minister nodding, I

:37:51.:37:54.

will take that as an open invitation to knock on his door with a

:37:55.:37:58.

delegation from the Cathedral City of Salisbury, and from Mid Dorset

:37:59.:38:01.

and North Poole. I look forward to that meeting. The principle is

:38:02.:38:11.

right, let us get detail right. I make no apology for talking about

:38:12.:38:15.

the schools in my constituency which is the eighth worst affected in the

:38:16.:38:27.

country. So, all 48 schools lose significant sums, the borough loses

:38:28.:38:32.

2.8 million. Cacked orring to the work done by the teaching unions

:38:33.:38:41.

that represented 15% per pupil per year. What I find objectionable,

:38:42.:38:46.

when you look at the way the money is going from the highest losing

:38:47.:38:53.

primary school ?65,000 a year, the highest losing secondary school is

:38:54.:38:57.

Burlington academy, they are both excellent school, excellent staff,

:38:58.:39:02.

but they are in two of the most deprived wards in the country,

:39:03.:39:07.

college park and Old Oak and White City, and what are we really

:39:08.:39:13.

expecting? That what message does it send out to the pupils and parents

:39:14.:39:17.

and teachers of those schools who are working hard to try and ensure

:39:18.:39:24.

that that excellent standard continues against the odds.

:39:25.:39:30.

Westminster has a mixed story but a number of schools including those in

:39:31.:39:35.

the 3% most deprived in the country, stand to lose, but does she share my

:39:36.:39:39.

concern that the Government is finding resource for a number of

:39:40.:39:42.

free schools that have been unable to fill place, when the Government

:39:43.:39:45.

talks about efficiency could they not look at the efficiency of that?

:39:46.:39:54.

It is a triumph of ideology over practicality. Let me just quote two

:39:55.:39:59.

of of the #350e78 who know whey what they are talking about. One is the

:40:00.:40:06.

head of the borough school forum and the principle of one of our

:40:07.:40:11.

secondary schools. If schools budgets are cost when costs are

:40:12.:40:15.

inning it can only have an effect on the education we are able to

:40:16.:40:19.

deliver. We won't be able to deploy the number of teachers we need to

:40:20.:40:23.

maintain standard and the Cabinet member responsible said it is clear

:40:24.:40:26.

the Government is trying to redistribute a pot of funding that

:40:27.:40:30.

is just too small, cutting funding hardest in London, rather than

:40:31.:40:34.

giving all schools the money they need for teacher, building and

:40:35.:40:38.

equipment is a divisive and just plain wrong. And that is absolutely

:40:39.:40:44.

right, because there are two billion pounds across country in extra cost

:40:45.:40:48.

pressures according to the National Audit Office. London is far and away

:40:49.:40:56.

the worst affected region, with 8 of the ten biggest loser, most

:40:57.:41:04.

boroughs, not every one, generally speaking, they are. And the reason

:41:05.:41:09.

that I say that that is particularly objectionable is London is a success

:41:10.:41:14.

story, this is punishing success, from London challenge, the London

:41:15.:41:18.

school's excellent fund going back to the days, we have prized

:41:19.:41:22.

education and particularly for people from deprived areas in London

:41:23.:41:25.

and we see that as the opportunity, and it is a shame that a London MP

:41:26.:41:31.

Secretary of State is overseeing this denuding of resources from

:41:32.:41:37.

London schools, in the way that this is happening. I was coming, early

:41:38.:41:44.

one morning, I will give way. I thank him for giving way, I am

:41:45.:41:54.

sure, surely the logic, is there is going on the to be fair fundinger

:41:55.:41:58.

you don't take away, you bring people up in other area, it is a

:41:59.:42:03.

ridiculous policy they are pursuing. This is a very crude exercise and

:42:04.:42:08.

political exercise. Some of the triumphalism we have seen from the

:42:09.:42:13.

benches opposite I find extremely objectionable. Early one morning I

:42:14.:42:18.

had a knock on the door from my neighbour and I said I have to go to

:42:19.:42:22.

work, if you call this work, and she said, no, it is more aren't

:42:23.:42:26.

important. Would you come round to my children's school because we are

:42:27.:42:29.

having a meeting about the funding formula, so I went round, and I

:42:30.:42:36.

listened to parents and teachers, very well-informed, really

:42:37.:42:39.

concerned, it is a primary school in the next street to where I live. It

:42:40.:42:42.

is true of schools across my constituency. These are real

:42:43.:42:45.

problems, that real people are having to address at the moment and

:42:46.:42:51.

the Secretary of State's contribution today, showed an

:42:52.:42:53.

extraordinary degree of complacency here. She does know the problem,

:42:54.:42:58.

because she is a good constituency MP, she knows the problems in

:42:59.:43:02.

schools, she has to address them. This cannot be a levelling down,

:43:03.:43:06.

this cannot be robbing Peter to pay Paul, we have to be fair to

:43:07.:43:12.

everyone. Thank you. Thank you very enough. Education has the power to

:43:13.:43:18.

change lives. As this motion recognises its helps children fulfil

:43:19.:43:23.

their potential. I, like many MPs have campaigned to ensure that my

:43:24.:43:27.

constituency gets its share of funding through a new fairer funding

:43:28.:43:32.

formula, because the constituency I represent has been historically

:43:33.:43:37.

underfunded. I want to see a formula which a significant element

:43:38.:43:40.

allocated to core funding to ensure every school has the funds it needs.

:43:41.:43:44.

Needs. Funding for good education is is not only important, it is

:43:45.:43:49.

necessary. But I would like to focus for a moment on the implicit

:43:50.:43:52.

suggestion in the most it is Government's funding decisions that

:43:53.:43:56.

is inhibiting children reaching their full potential. Funding on its

:43:57.:44:00.

own is insufficient to ensure excellence. I would like to give two

:44:01.:44:03.

examples. In this 2016 Ofsted report, it

:44:04.:44:15.

highlighted the success of early years. When it came to

:44:16.:44:19.

recommendations it did not say that more money was needed but parents

:44:20.:44:24.

need to take up the education already offered. Ofsted reported

:44:25.:44:29.

that a children who would have benefited from early years was

:44:30.:44:34.

simply not up government funding funded places. She is making a very

:44:35.:44:41.

valid point in terms of early years. Would she agree with me that this

:44:42.:44:46.

isn't just about a new fairer funding formula, this government is

:44:47.:44:50.

giving a lot of money into education, including the 30 hours of

:44:51.:44:55.

free childcare. A preschool in my constituency is having a brand-new

:44:56.:44:58.

building built on the back of that money and they are only too grateful

:44:59.:45:04.

to the government. It is not just about fairer funding. I am pleased

:45:05.:45:09.

that my area was one of the 12 opportunity areas announced last

:45:10.:45:12.

week together significant more amount of money, so this isn't just

:45:13.:45:19.

about fairer funding coming in. I was mentioning two examples and I

:45:20.:45:27.

would like to move on to the second. In secondary education, in the same

:45:28.:45:30.

report Ofsted mentioned that secondary schools in the north and

:45:31.:45:32.

the Midlands were weaker than in other areas in the country. It at

:45:33.:45:37.

the lower performance in these regions could not be fully accounted

:45:38.:45:41.

for by poverty or differences in school funding. It stated that

:45:42.:45:46.

leaders and teachers had not set high enough expectations for

:45:47.:45:49.

behaviour for the pupils, which leads me on to make a point. To

:45:50.:45:55.

raise standards and to allow children to achieve their

:45:56.:45:59.

aspirations, we need to do so much more than provide adequate funding.

:46:00.:46:05.

We need to champion teaching as a vocation. We need to inspire more

:46:06.:46:10.

outstanding teachers to teach. We need to give teachers the respect

:46:11.:46:14.

and autonomy that they deserve. We need to support our students in the

:46:15.:46:19.

classroom to enable them to deal with life's challenges, from helping

:46:20.:46:22.

them with mental health issues to building up their resilience and

:46:23.:46:27.

aspiration. We need to work with industry to identify local skills

:46:28.:46:31.

shortages and raise standards in technical education. These go

:46:32.:46:35.

hand-in-hand with funding. All of these measures have been championed

:46:36.:46:40.

by this government, whether in the industrial strategy Green Paper

:46:41.:46:44.

announced this week, in the Prime Minister's statement on mental

:46:45.:46:47.

health earlier this month with a white paper on education excellence

:46:48.:46:53.

everywhere last year. Education is the building block for the future.

:46:54.:46:59.

Good funding is essential and we need to work together across all

:47:00.:47:02.

departments to ensure that our children fulfil their potential. As

:47:03.:47:13.

a former teacher, school governors and parents I understand the value

:47:14.:47:19.

of providing every child with an education. Education changes lives,

:47:20.:47:24.

empowers individuals, allow social mobility and is the single biggest

:47:25.:47:28.

driver of economic success for a nation. It is right that we seek to

:47:29.:47:33.

provide the very best education for all the children of this country.

:47:34.:47:37.

This government is going about things in the wrong way. And the new

:47:38.:47:42.

national funding formula will see 90% of schools were soft and

:47:43.:47:46.

demonstrates more than anything else argued that the government is not

:47:47.:47:50.

serious about raising educational standards, nor is it serious about

:47:51.:47:55.

social mobility. My constituency, which continues to have some of the

:47:56.:48:02.

highest levels of social deprivation and is in... Will lose ?399 for

:48:03.:48:18.

every primary pupil. How can this be squared with the Jacksons that my

:48:19.:48:25.

schools will lose 8% on average by 2019? Even before these cuts we are

:48:26.:48:29.

already seeing increased class sizes, subject to being dropped from

:48:30.:48:34.

the curriculum, students with special needs losing vital support,

:48:35.:48:38.

teacher vacancies. I asked the Secretary of how she believes

:48:39.:48:42.

cutting fungi funding for schools and Burnley will help a generation

:48:43.:48:46.

of young people to succeed? There is nothing there about funding that is

:48:47.:48:51.

not sufficient. How can it be fair to take funding from schools already

:48:52.:48:55.

stretched to breaking point? Schools that already go the extra mile to

:48:56.:48:59.

give their children the best possible start in life? Schools that

:49:00.:49:06.

work hard... She mentioned before that 90% of schools will lose, but I

:49:07.:49:14.

understand from the figures 70% of schools in her constituency will

:49:15.:49:21.

actually benefit from that. I hope his figures are correct but I fear

:49:22.:49:26.

they are not. My information to jest they are not. The research I have

:49:27.:49:36.

dungeons that is not the case. My schools are working hard already

:49:37.:49:41.

flat out to cope with social and economic deprivation to help

:49:42.:49:47.

children overcome disadvantage. These schools are having the rug

:49:48.:49:50.

pulled from under them. Robbing Peter to pay Paul is not going to

:49:51.:49:59.

help. In my constituency there has been a concerted effort by key

:50:00.:50:03.

stakeholders, schools and businesses to work together to grow the local

:50:04.:50:07.

economy. We're making good progress. We are focusing our energies...

:50:08.:50:16.

Considerable effort has been expended on this and these funding

:50:17.:50:19.

cuts Philip gay cake in the teeth. Education is a key to not just

:50:20.:50:24.

better life chances, but our economic success. Ensuring adequate

:50:25.:50:29.

funding is absolutely crucial so that every child wherever they live,

:50:30.:50:32.

whatever their background can fulfil their potential. Every citizen

:50:33.:50:40.

matters, not least our economy. Investing in education is investment

:50:41.:50:44.

in the economy and failing to do this is short-sighted in the

:50:45.:50:48.

extreme. The government talks of increased social mobility and

:50:49.:50:52.

growing a strong economy, they need to understand that investment in

:50:53.:51:01.

education is fundamental to this. It is a pleasure to follow the

:51:02.:51:06.

honourable lady. First of all the Secretary of State and 13 are to be

:51:07.:51:10.

congratulated because they seem to be too many of us on this side of

:51:11.:51:16.

the house, and probably some outside of the house, almost two larger

:51:17.:51:23.

problem to start to wrestle with. We are in a consultation process and of

:51:24.:51:27.

course there will be anomalies and creases that need to be higher in

:51:28.:51:31.

doubt, and unforeseen circumstances that need to be attended to. But the

:51:32.:51:40.

scary thing is that members opposite who have spoken have been unable or

:51:41.:51:45.

unwilling to see the inherent unfairness of the system which they

:51:46.:51:49.

have not only promoted, but fed because it was... Where we see

:51:50.:51:59.

funding for the year 16 and 17, with the government has been trying to

:52:00.:52:08.

counterbalance the differentials. In Manchester, 4619. Doncaster 5281.

:52:09.:52:16.

Dorset 4240 per pupil. Something has gone wrong. It says quite clearly

:52:17.:52:21.

taxpayers in Dorset and the children's needs are less important

:52:22.:52:27.

to taxpayers and the children in other areas. There was nothing fair

:52:28.:52:32.

in the funding formula which the Labour Party bequeathed. We could

:52:33.:52:36.

have had a knee jerk reaction which would have put the cat amongst the

:52:37.:52:42.

pigeons, but I think the incremental approach which my right honourable

:52:43.:52:47.

friend has adopted is to try to address and arrest this problem, it

:52:48.:52:52.

is to be congratulated. I concur with many of the comments made of

:52:53.:53:03.

when we go into our village primary schools and see the enthusiasm of

:53:04.:53:08.

teachers, and the parents, and the governors and the teaching staff in

:53:09.:53:13.

general, and we see the enthusiasm for education, and we know they have

:53:14.:53:18.

been trying to do at one hand tied behind their back because they had

:53:19.:53:21.

been penalised for a living and working in rural area. There is

:53:22.:53:29.

great passion amongst the teachers in schools like Westminster Academy

:53:30.:53:33.

which has the highest proportion of free school dinners anywhere in

:53:34.:53:36.

Britain. They stand to lose at least a quarter of ?1 million. How is that

:53:37.:53:46.

fair? I am very familiar with the problems which face some of the

:53:47.:53:50.

schools in her constituency and elsewhere. I do not think, and this

:53:51.:53:56.

is the point that maybe needs to be said rather baldly to members

:53:57.:54:02.

opposite, but all because schools which have done very well in an

:54:03.:54:10.

unfair system start to see some rebalancing whilst the cake is

:54:11.:54:14.

divided again, I do not necessarily think that that is an argument to

:54:15.:54:19.

say that they should be no change to those schools who disproportionately

:54:20.:54:22.

have enjoyed funding whereas those in the rural areas have not. Will he

:54:23.:54:32.

agree with me that many of rural schools in Somerset and Dorset have

:54:33.:54:35.

been doing so well on the funding they have had that this extra

:54:36.:54:39.

funding will enable them to perhaps have some of the things they haven't

:54:40.:54:42.

been able to have because they're simply hasn't been enough money to

:54:43.:54:51.

go rounds? I convened around table of the chairs and governors in my

:54:52.:54:54.

school and the key thing that they says was the recruitment and

:54:55.:54:58.

retention of teachers, and the basic goblin was the inequities in the

:54:59.:55:04.

funding, the inability to have a formula which recognised rural

:55:05.:55:08.

sparsity and the additional costs which those schools based. Of all

:55:09.:55:20.

the parents who get involved in schools, and I declare an interest

:55:21.:55:24.

because I have three young daughters in the village primary school in my

:55:25.:55:30.

constituency, but I see the work that my wonderful wife, the chairman

:55:31.:55:37.

of the PTF they does, but also the hard-working farmer who gets about

:55:38.:55:40.

four o'clock in the morning to look after his livestock but still goes

:55:41.:55:47.

to the parents meeting at four p.m.. The huge effort...

:55:48.:56:00.

you see that level of keenness at all levels of the rural education

:56:01.:56:07.

establishment, that is why they are keen to see a fairer funding model

:56:08.:56:12.

which addresses the imbalance, which recognises the needs and make sure

:56:13.:56:18.

that the lifeblood of many of rural communities, which I believe rural

:56:19.:56:22.

schools actually are, can continue long into the future. In recent

:56:23.:56:30.

weeks the government has revealed its reforms to the national funding

:56:31.:56:35.

formula. These reforms paint a bleak future for the schools of Bradford

:56:36.:56:39.

promising stagnant funding allocations which failed to meet

:56:40.:56:43.

increasing pupil demand. This in the city which has and continues to face

:56:44.:56:48.

difficult times, but is trying its best to improve standards. The

:56:49.:56:52.

perfect storm in funding cuts which will damage Bradford's education

:56:53.:56:56.

system and harm the life chances of our children. What I fear most is

:56:57.:57:02.

that these reforms market determined and intentional culture of

:57:03.:57:05.

underinvestment by this government in our school system. So what do the

:57:06.:57:14.

funding reforms been for Bradford? It of Bradford primary schools,

:57:15.:57:16.

secondary schools and academies are faced with cuts to the budget with

:57:17.:57:21.

funding for early years provision set to be cut by 2.4 million, or 6%.

:57:22.:57:29.

While difficult funding decisions are already being taken Bradford,

:57:30.:57:33.

and in recent weeks the Bradford schools Forum took the difficult

:57:34.:57:36.

decision to divert millions from mainstream schools to fund

:57:37.:57:42.

additional school places for pupils with special educational needs.

:57:43.:57:47.

Every child deserves an education and an excellent education. Against

:57:48.:57:53.

this financial backdrop it is not only day-to-day teaching budgets

:57:54.:57:57.

that are becoming ever more constrained, the ability of our

:57:58.:58:00.

school system to invest in new provision is becoming less and less

:58:01.:58:05.

viable. In recent months, the Prime Minister has said that she wants to

:58:06.:58:08.

see parity for mental health provision. This must be true for

:58:09.:58:13.

young people as it is for the rest of the population. At this time,

:58:14.:58:17.

many believe mental health provision for our children and young people is

:58:18.:58:22.

in need of urgent improvement. In response to my recent parliamentary

:58:23.:58:26.

question, the ministers responded schools are able to decide on and

:58:27.:58:30.

make assessments of the support they provide for the pupils based on

:58:31.:58:34.

their individual needs. At a time when our school budget is facing

:58:35.:58:40.

real terms funding cuts, it is unlikely that schools will be able

:58:41.:58:44.

to find extra funding to fund new provision. Even if schools believe

:58:45.:58:47.

that additional support would benefit the pupils. If the Prime

:58:48.:58:52.

Minister is truly committed to parity and care between physical and

:58:53.:58:56.

mental illness, her government must seriously consider making additional

:58:57.:59:00.

ring fenced funding available to schools. In closing I say that if as

:59:01.:59:06.

a country we are genuinely committed to driving improvements in

:59:07.:59:11.

educational attainment, in tackling inequalities and supporting our

:59:12.:59:14.

children with decent mental health provision, the and decent funding is

:59:15.:59:17.

nothing short of vital. I'm lucky to represent the

:59:18.:59:30.

constituency in Woolwich, if not one of the best borrowers in the country

:59:31.:59:37.

for results and Ofsted ratings. Having visited every school ones I

:59:38.:59:42.

can say that is due to exceptional schooling Billy Mckay teaching and

:59:43.:59:46.

leadership. My comments today are informed by many meetings I have had

:59:47.:59:50.

with teachers across the constituency including the

:59:51.:59:54.

delegation I brought to see the funding ministers last year. My

:59:55.:59:58.

first comment is about overall funding. It is at its highest level

:59:59.:00:05.

but the fact is, there is additional demand. I will make no apology when

:00:06.:00:09.

we have discussions about public spending being divided up in asking

:00:10.:00:13.

for more money for schools but that has to be set against the demand for

:00:14.:00:18.

members on both sides for funding from everything from NHS to national

:00:19.:00:22.

infrastructure. The money has to be divided up in some way. That brings

:00:23.:00:29.

me to my second point. The pre-existing formula was not a fair

:00:30.:00:37.

one. It was a formula which had to be made fairer. Under the existing

:00:38.:00:43.

formula, Kingston has the worst funding, students get ?400 less in

:00:44.:00:51.

the same city, 40 miles away, how can that be fair? I campaigned with

:00:52.:00:56.

parents in my constituency for a fairer funding formula and we have

:00:57.:00:59.

seen a marginal increase and importantly a mobility factor being

:01:00.:01:06.

taken account of because mobility... Will the Member not accept that

:01:07.:01:11.

there are quite different social circumstances between the

:01:12.:01:15.

constituency of area in London that he represents and that of Tower

:01:16.:01:23.

Hamlets and the fact is schools in deprived areas require more

:01:24.:01:29.

per-pupil funding? Hopefully the lady can repeat that in the poorer

:01:30.:01:32.

parts of my constituency where people are deprived just as much as

:01:33.:01:38.

in Tower Hamlets. In fact, I don't disagree one of the most important

:01:39.:01:42.

factor should be deprivation and schools in Kingston and other

:01:43.:01:45.

borrowers will get less because deprivation is a key factor but that

:01:46.:01:51.

level of disparity is not fair. The fact of the matter is that whenever

:01:52.:01:55.

there is a real conversation of a funding formula, there will be

:01:56.:01:58.

winners and losers unless you have a massive increase in funding to level

:01:59.:02:02.

up rather than level down and that is not a level of funding that any

:02:03.:02:11.

party committed to in its manifesto. My third point is that headteachers

:02:12.:02:15.

legitimately make the point that the costs of increased national living

:02:16.:02:19.

wages, national insurance contributions and pensions are

:02:20.:02:21.

putting the pressure on their budget. They are in other areas of

:02:22.:02:26.

the public budget but we shouldn't forget that in this debate. My final

:02:27.:02:35.

is this. This is the biggest issue in my constituency were high needs

:02:36.:02:40.

funding has resulted in an overspend on the PSG of around ?5 million

:02:41.:02:44.

which is going to have to be found from school budget as a whole. The

:02:45.:02:49.

council and free school providers have put in applications for new

:02:50.:02:53.

special schools within the borough of Kingston and Richmond, which will

:02:54.:02:58.

in the medium term reduced pressure. In the short term there is no clear

:02:59.:03:01.

answer to whether is ?5 million will come from apart from every child

:03:02.:03:06.

school funding and I'm pleased the minister was able to meet the

:03:07.:03:09.

council leader to discuss this a few weeks ago. In conclusion, all of

:03:10.:03:16.

these points need to be taken into account and I'm pleased there was a

:03:17.:03:25.

small increase for Kingston schools. At the end of the day, there has to

:03:26.:03:30.

be fairness across the constituents recognise that and I will be putting

:03:31.:03:36.

in a phase to consultation response and it'll be informed by the

:03:37.:03:44.

headteachers in my constituency. This week on the Public Accounts

:03:45.:03:49.

Committee, we reviewed the annual report on the financial

:03:50.:03:52.

sustainability of school funding and the most helpful thing I can do now

:03:53.:03:55.

is give the chamber some flavour of how that went. Present were

:03:56.:04:02.

officials from the DFE including the permanent Secretary Jonathan Slater

:04:03.:04:06.

but the session was preceded by a panel of teachers and they spoke

:04:07.:04:14.

understandably of current and financial pressures. The impact of

:04:15.:04:19.

funding and the strategies they have to deal with it. Things like

:04:20.:04:28.

reducing the curriculum and ink increasing class sizes and mental

:04:29.:04:37.

health extracurricular activities. And increasing teacher contact time.

:04:38.:04:42.

The Department unsurprisingly didn't altogether recognise this picture.

:04:43.:04:48.

Interestingly that they didn't dispute any of the financial facts.

:04:49.:04:54.

There was no disagreement whatsoever that schools have to save 3 billion,

:04:55.:05:02.

that represents an 80% cut by 2020 and this is the toughest challenge

:05:03.:05:08.

since the last Conservative government was in power. There was

:05:09.:05:11.

no dispute that more schools were in debt and that the debts were growing

:05:12.:05:16.

bigger. The department simply didn't dispute those as financial fax zero

:05:17.:05:20.

could they because they greet with the NAI report. Their argument was

:05:21.:05:25.

not about financial fax themselves but about fax. If every school

:05:26.:05:37.

procured efficiently on heating and insurance, if they manage the

:05:38.:05:41.

payroll effectively then disaster can be averted. They stood ready and

:05:42.:05:45.

the Secretary of State was ready with advice and tutorials to help

:05:46.:05:49.

them do that. They think disaster can be averted, in the words of the

:05:50.:05:55.

permanent Secretary, doable. My view is there are good reasons for

:05:56.:05:59.

scepticism because the DFE exercise as it is has been a desk one. They

:06:00.:06:04.

know little about the individual circumstances of schools, how could

:06:05.:06:08.

they? There are too many to gauge and understand. And it is a fact

:06:09.:06:14.

that not every school can actually reduce its payroll costs. Not if it

:06:15.:06:19.

is endowed with experience and established. Not if it needs to take

:06:20.:06:23.

up the slack caused by the reduction or the abolition of the educational

:06:24.:06:28.

support grant, especially small schools. Not every school can reduce

:06:29.:06:31.

procurement costs, not if it is an old building or it has done so or if

:06:32.:06:38.

it is tied into long-term contracts. What is doable in theory is not

:06:39.:06:44.

doable in practice. The most chilling passage is the NCO report

:06:45.:06:50.

of paragraph 2.8. I advise members to read that very carefully. Thank

:06:51.:07:01.

you Mr Speaker. I rise today to talk about school funding and many people

:07:02.:07:05.

in this place went to be aware that I was very involved in school

:07:06.:07:10.

funding and trying to get a fair formula for schools many years ago

:07:11.:07:14.

when I was chairman of the advisory committee. They actually have then

:07:15.:07:24.

working for 25 years and what civil servants always say is there will be

:07:25.:07:28.

winners and losers. Of course there are winners and losers, they are

:07:29.:07:34.

there now. In Derby city itself, the highest funded school gets paid ?564

:07:35.:07:45.

per pupil, the lowest is about ?800 which is a huge difference for a

:07:46.:07:51.

school when you have 13 of 1500 pupils, multiply that up, it makes

:07:52.:07:55.

an enormous difference to the quality of education that you can

:07:56.:07:59.

get. We know that some schools need more funding that they are all

:08:00.:08:10.

wanting to lose ?800. Some of them do need funding but those at the

:08:11.:08:16.

bottom of the list are consistently there are so I'm delighted this

:08:17.:08:20.

government has decided that it is going to have the school funding

:08:21.:08:24.

formula. It is about time it happened, we've been wanting it for

:08:25.:08:29.

over 25 years and I'm delighted this government is actually tackling it

:08:30.:08:35.

and will consult on this. My colleague from Derbyshire, which she

:08:36.:08:42.

agree with me that this is good news for Derby city. We do need extra

:08:43.:08:48.

support and me could in actual fact gain a .4%? It'd make a huge

:08:49.:08:53.

difference to Derby schools and I think it's very important that it is

:08:54.:08:59.

given to the right schools. Those schools have been underfunded for so

:09:00.:09:03.

long actually get a fair crack of the whip and we don't allow Derby

:09:04.:09:09.

City Council to skew it in any way, shape or form so that the same

:09:10.:09:14.

schools get extra money and the ones who've been deprived do get any

:09:15.:09:19.

extra money. There are issues with schools at the moment and I know

:09:20.:09:23.

many schools are looking forward to having this national funding formula

:09:24.:09:27.

which as I've said, it is so important that they do. There are

:09:28.:09:33.

problems which have fixed costs, the fixed costs of the same whether you

:09:34.:09:38.

are an inner-city school or a leafy suburb. So why are they up paid a

:09:39.:09:43.

different amount of money? The biggest problem schools have at the

:09:44.:09:48.

moment all something I do want to raise with the Minister is the

:09:49.:09:52.

apprenticeship levy is there now and there is no more money for it and we

:09:53.:09:56.

have to look at how we can fund it because it is within the overall

:09:57.:10:00.

budget and they have no choice, it is a very good thing. The other

:10:01.:10:03.

thing they are finding is they are dropping the Duke of Edinburgh award

:10:04.:10:08.

system because they cannot afford to run it any more and this is really

:10:09.:10:13.

important for Derby schools. There are some amazing opportunities for

:10:14.:10:18.

young people and if we lose those sorts of extracurricular activities

:10:19.:10:22.

then we are not giving the pupils the all-round education that I

:10:23.:10:25.

believe that they should have the matter something I would like the

:10:26.:10:31.

Minister if he can look at. Where schools for their maximise the

:10:32.:10:35.

amount of money but what don't want to see is that they have to increase

:10:36.:10:41.

class sizes. I would like to see as having another look, it cannot come

:10:42.:10:49.

soon enough for so many schools in this country who have been looking

:10:50.:10:56.

forward to it. Every child in this country deserves a decent education

:10:57.:11:02.

and every disabled child deserves a decent education, the principal no

:11:03.:11:06.

child should be worse off should run through this consultation. Where you

:11:07.:11:11.

are born should not dictate your life chances yet that is the case

:11:12.:11:14.

for too many children in our countries and too many children in

:11:15.:11:19.

Wakefield were 25% of children are growing up in poverty. I was proud

:11:20.:11:23.

to be a Member of the last Labour government that lifted nearly a

:11:24.:11:26.

million children out of poverty and I'm so disappointed at what this

:11:27.:11:30.

government has done overseeing the closure of 800 sure start centres

:11:31.:11:33.

and changing the goalposts on measuring child poverty. We have a

:11:34.:11:41.

very deep hit to Wakefield schools by this proposal so fair funding

:11:42.:11:46.

should mean a levelling up... I'm not giving weight... Not a levelling

:11:47.:11:49.

down so every school in my constituency will see their funding

:11:50.:11:56.

cut under the proposals. The manifesto has been broken as we've

:11:57.:12:00.

heard from the Member of Liverpool West Derby. Her government has not

:12:01.:12:03.

provided for finding her people to increase in line with inflation, it

:12:04.:12:10.

hasn't accounted for the increase in attending schools and has not

:12:11.:12:14.

considered the cost of higher national insurance and pension

:12:15.:12:17.

contributions which now have to be absolved by the school budgets. When

:12:18.:12:23.

the efficiency savings are factored in to the funding formula, funding

:12:24.:12:35.

in Wakefield, her pupils over ?600 before 2019, a real term cut of 11%.

:12:36.:12:43.

Nine schools across the district are predicted to be in a deficit by the

:12:44.:12:47.

31st of March and that means increased class sizes, subjects

:12:48.:12:51.

dropped from the curriculum and in particular, pupils with special

:12:52.:12:56.

needs and disabilities losing vital support and teacher vacancies left

:12:57.:13:02.

unfilled. We have heard a very worrying impact that we will see on

:13:03.:13:08.

special educational needs. At the moment there is some flexibility to

:13:09.:13:12.

move money around and move money into the high needs block. Under the

:13:13.:13:18.

new formula there will be disruption and uncertainty around special needs

:13:19.:13:23.

funding for cities like Wakefield and it is simply not enough for

:13:24.:13:26.

children in our city who need that extra support. She mentioned at the

:13:27.:13:34.

outset that it is important get the same opportunity, she also mentioned

:13:35.:13:37.

that the class sizes would go up, does she think it's fair that the

:13:38.:13:41.

children in my constituency have class sizes in every single

:13:42.:13:45.

secondary School of over 30 and have been historically underfunded for

:13:46.:13:52.

years? She is reinforcing my point that the Government has to take

:13:53.:13:57.

account for rising pupil numbers and this formula fails to do that and

:13:58.:13:59.

the efficiency savings fail to do that so she wants to have a word

:14:00.:14:04.

with the Secretary of State about that. What we cannot have is a

:14:05.:14:08.

situation where there isn't enough money to go around to educate all

:14:09.:14:13.

children well. And yet we in Wakefield will see a thousand more

:14:14.:14:17.

children, thousands more people starting school in September and no

:14:18.:14:21.

money allocated for that and we see the schools and the pupils missing

:14:22.:14:27.

out. The Institute for Fiscal Studies so schools in England face

:14:28.:14:31.

the steepest cuts to funding since the 1970s, despite the

:14:32.:14:41.

circumstances, headteachers are doing excellent work on my

:14:42.:14:42.

constituency. I urge the Secretary of State to

:14:43.:14:51.

drop programmer school plans, revise this national funding formula and

:14:52.:14:54.

made sure we can go back to the bad old days. I had to pay ?12 for my

:14:55.:15:01.

own level physics textbook and we didn't have a teacher but to years

:15:02.:15:07.

in the good old days of the 1984 teaching budgets. We don't want to

:15:08.:15:12.

go back to those days. This is welcome news for Lincolnshire

:15:13.:15:16.

schools as we are one of the lowest funded authorities in the country.

:15:17.:15:21.

We have been campaigning for a fairer funding allocation for some

:15:22.:15:24.

years because it can't be right that authorities in other parts of the

:15:25.:15:29.

country get more money to pass on to schools due to historical

:15:30.:15:32.

allegations. This is long overdue and we will be making a strong views

:15:33.:15:36.

known in the consultation leading up to the changes. Those are the words

:15:37.:15:46.

of councillor Patricia Bradwell, executive member for children's

:15:47.:15:49.

services at Luke Shaw County Council. She is right. She knows

:15:50.:15:55.

that rural areas can also be areas where deprivation, special needs,

:15:56.:15:58.

the challenges of students whose first language is not English and a

:15:59.:16:02.

host of other issues are just as common as they are in cities. The

:16:03.:16:06.

government's proposed funding formula mixed huge strides in

:16:07.:16:10.

writing that historic Miss Justice and I welcome it. This is a funding

:16:11.:16:15.

formula in a consultation days so I hope the government will take the

:16:16.:16:19.

opportunity to make it even better. The House of Commons library tells

:16:20.:16:23.

me 29 of the 39 schools for which they have information will see the

:16:24.:16:29.

funding rise by up to 2.9%. On current form, ten of those will see

:16:30.:16:34.

a slight fall for the same overall total it would be perfectly possible

:16:35.:16:39.

to see non-fall all. I would make a couple of please to the department.

:16:40.:16:45.

At the same amount of money distributed fractionally differently

:16:46.:16:49.

we could do even better. First, the government has rightly committed to

:16:50.:16:53.

the expansion of grammar schools, engines for social mobility and find

:16:54.:16:58.

institutions in Boston, Skegness and across Lincolnshire. In the fourth

:16:59.:17:01.

lowest funded authority in the country these are not schools that

:17:02.:17:05.

were overfunded in the past. A tweak to the formula could improve the

:17:06.:17:11.

situation. Secondly, the issue of small, rural primary schools. These

:17:12.:17:15.

are currently in many communities what binds together friends and

:17:16.:17:20.

neighbours and keeps villages to scalable. If this formula is to have

:17:21.:17:26.

a sparsity factor, but I can only be right to acknowledge that a county

:17:27.:17:29.

such as Lincolnshire is about as fast as they come. Again, for no

:17:30.:17:34.

overall increase, it could be done slightly better. One approach might

:17:35.:17:38.

be to give local authorities greater powers to decide how spending might

:17:39.:17:44.

be allocated. To close, linkage is on record welcoming a ?5 million

:17:45.:17:48.

boost for schools across the county. It writes a historic wrong and will

:17:49.:17:53.

go a long way to meeting genuine needs and ending the pretence that

:17:54.:17:56.

urban areas have a monopoly on deprivation. Lincolnshire welcomes

:17:57.:18:02.

the consultation as a way of making sure that the extra money that is so

:18:03.:18:07.

welcome to be spent even more effectively after these very

:18:08.:18:13.

promising proposals. I would like to declare an interest as I have two

:18:14.:18:17.

children attending a local school that is affected by these cuts. My

:18:18.:18:21.

wife is the Cabinet member for children and young people on our

:18:22.:18:26.

local authority. My local council has an exceptional record for

:18:27.:18:30.

education with over 90% of schools waited good or outstanding and not

:18:31.:18:35.

one school is inadequate. All the good progress could be jeopardised

:18:36.:18:38.

if the planned reductions to funding or implemented. The extent of the

:18:39.:18:48.

reductions will remove ?7.9 million in Cheshire West and gesture. This

:18:49.:18:54.

means a 2% cut across-the-board. 32 out of 33 schools in my constituency

:18:55.:18:59.

will not maintain the per-pupil funding contrary to what was

:19:00.:19:02.

promised by the government. With this in mind the will to local

:19:03.:19:05.

schools are my constituency to ask them what they thought and I have

:19:06.:19:10.

been worried by the responses I have had back. Ellesmere Port saw huge

:19:11.:19:15.

improvements when it was placed in special measures in 2013. The

:19:16.:19:20.

headteacher has worked incredibly hard to turn things around and they

:19:21.:19:26.

were awarded a good rating in 2015. The chief inspector of state

:19:27.:19:30.

referred to the school in a speech in November last year about schools

:19:31.:19:33.

that have made remarkable transformation, saying that the

:19:34.:19:40.

school now has almost three quarters of pupils getting five GCSEs. These

:19:41.:19:47.

funding reductions will threaten the improvements they have made. This

:19:48.:19:56.

will make the approved deficit reduction plan will be completely

:19:57.:20:02.

unachievable. The headteacher told me we are already stretched to the

:20:03.:20:05.

limit and it is a very bleak outlook. The government must invest

:20:06.:20:09.

in schools for the sake of our children and future. Whitney high

:20:10.:20:13.

school said they could face a ?110,000 funding reduction. They

:20:14.:20:20.

could be facing a 10% real terms budget cut, the equivalent in

:20:21.:20:24.

reductions of staffing of 17 if savings are not find elsewhere. At

:20:25.:20:29.

the Sutton primary School the governor said they are worried about

:20:30.:20:32.

the sustainability of the school following the new funding

:20:33.:20:34.

arrangements. Another school said that they have had a real term

:20:35.:20:43.

reduction of 4.4%, or ?65,000. It'll be back combined with wages

:20:44.:20:47.

increases and inflation the reduction has been in excess of

:20:48.:20:53.

?100,000. St Mary is have said that by 2019 there but it would be done

:20:54.:21:00.

by ?90,000. This is a terrible situation for local schools and is

:21:01.:21:04.

one headteacher said to me it does appear that the fairer funding model

:21:05.:21:14.

being discussed is far from fair. When I met with headteachers in my

:21:15.:21:17.

constituency campaigning for fairer funding in Nottinghamshire with my

:21:18.:21:23.

parliamentary neighbour, he said to those gathered that the only two

:21:24.:21:30.

people he has ever met who understood how these formulas worked

:21:31.:21:34.

and one of them was dead the other had gone mad, so it gives me a lot

:21:35.:21:40.

of pleasure to see my right honourable friend the Secretary of

:21:41.:21:44.

State has grasped the nettle at long last and has tackled an issue which

:21:45.:21:50.

he certainly said no Education Secretary would ever take on. This

:21:51.:21:55.

was a manifestly unfair formula as many honourable members have said

:21:56.:22:01.

already today. Nottinghamshire was one of the F 40 counties, so perhaps

:22:02.:22:09.

of schools across my county I am delighted to welcome a modest

:22:10.:22:13.

increase admittedly not by the present, but nonetheless an

:22:14.:22:16.

increase. I think it is incredibly important that we take on difficult

:22:17.:22:21.

issues and don't just kick the scans down the road. Time and time again

:22:22.:22:25.

in politics we saw this with tax credits and other issues where it is

:22:26.:22:29.

immensely difficult to take money away from people, even if the

:22:30.:22:33.

reasons have been proven to be wrong, the formula is outdated and

:22:34.:22:38.

the opposition considerable. This is an example of a government taking on

:22:39.:22:41.

a difficult issue and not just kicking down the road. It also sends

:22:42.:22:47.

out a signal that there is poverty in rural areas. No county

:22:48.:22:50.

exemplifies that better than Nottinghamshire. I may be privileged

:22:51.:22:55.

to represent the more affluent part of that county, but at least half of

:22:56.:23:04.

it are made up of ex-Caulfield communities, places with deep rooted

:23:05.:23:09.

social problems left to fester by the Labour Party. This formula will

:23:10.:23:15.

not benefit my constituency. It will benefit those deprived parts of the

:23:16.:23:20.

county of Nottinghamshire and I am proud that that is happening, even

:23:21.:23:24.

if it is a difficult conversation with most of my own headteachers.

:23:25.:23:31.

The last point is to say that there are parts of this country that have

:23:32.:23:35.

been well funded but that have produced appalling results and none

:23:36.:23:40.

other than the city of Nottingham exemplifies that. Those schools, and

:23:41.:23:45.

I'm sure we have heard from colleagues who represent that city

:23:46.:23:47.

today, how disappointed that they are that the funding has fallen. I

:23:48.:23:53.

feel sympathy for that, but those relatively well funded schools have

:23:54.:23:58.

let down generations of students, and appalling local authority, pure

:23:59.:24:02.

quality leadership and I look to the Secretary of State, as well as

:24:03.:24:06.

increasing funding for my schools in Nottinghamshire, to find an answer,

:24:07.:24:14.

a strategy for a city like Nottingham that desperately needs

:24:15.:24:22.

it. In my first week as an MP I received a letter from a headteacher

:24:23.:24:29.

of the school that my two children attend, and the school highlighted

:24:30.:24:34.

some of the very real issues that the schools of my constituency are

:24:35.:24:38.

going to be facing in the next few years. I realised when I got to the

:24:39.:24:43.

end of that I wasn't receiving the letter because I was a newly elected

:24:44.:24:47.

MP, I was receiving the letter because it was a parent and every

:24:48.:24:51.

single parent received that letter. I thought to myself, this is surely

:24:52.:24:56.

unprecedented, this is surely an indication of the deep level of

:24:57.:25:00.

anxiety that is being felt by the headteacher of my children's school

:25:01.:25:04.

and the other schools are my constituency at the future of

:25:05.:25:10.

funding for those schools in my constituency. I spoke to the

:25:11.:25:13.

headteacher of my children's school about the issue. The Secretary of

:25:14.:25:19.

State refers to using staff more efficiently will stopping my

:25:20.:25:22.

children's school my constituency that means cutting teaching

:25:23.:25:27.

assistants. This will mean that the biggest impacts will be felt by

:25:28.:25:32.

those pupils who need the most help, the special educational needs and

:25:33.:25:35.

additional language -- language leads. This will increase the gaps

:25:36.:25:40.

in entertainment and will limit opportunities for those who already

:25:41.:25:43.

have the least opportunities available. I attended a meeting of

:25:44.:25:53.

headteachers in Kingston and one of the things highlighted that seemed

:25:54.:25:57.

extraordinary to me but was again confirmed to me by the headteacher

:25:58.:26:01.

at my local school is that schools are having to pay an apprenticeship

:26:02.:26:05.

levy and this is adding to the costs. It seems extraordinary to me

:26:06.:26:09.

that schools are having to find money from their budgets, having to

:26:10.:26:13.

take it from money that would otherwise be paid towards teaching

:26:14.:26:18.

staff, to pay a penalty for not providing training. I find this an

:26:19.:26:22.

extraordinary anomaly and the hope that the Secretary of State will

:26:23.:26:26.

look into it as a matter of urgency because this seems an unnecessary

:26:27.:26:28.

burden for schools in my constituency and elsewhere. I can

:26:29.:26:33.

understand the motivation to ensure that distribution of funding is

:26:34.:26:38.

evened out across the country and that for some people this will be

:26:39.:26:43.

seen as fairer, but urged the Secretary of State to achieve this

:26:44.:26:46.

by looking for ways to increase funding to those schools that

:26:47.:26:49.

already are disadvantaged and not by taking it from schools that have

:26:50.:26:53.

traditionally received more, because this will cause a great deal of

:26:54.:26:56.

hardship not just for schools are my constituency but elsewhere. Of

:26:57.:27:04.

course I commend the government's determination to build and you

:27:05.:27:08.

schools funding formula but I am pleased that are still at the

:27:09.:27:12.

consultation stage. Representing South Cambridgeshire, I can't do

:27:13.:27:17.

that until 2015 was the lowest funded county in the country, I

:27:18.:27:21.

understand only too well how underfunded schools have struggled.

:27:22.:27:25.

The proposed new formula with laudable intentions to look on

:27:26.:27:31.

deprivation does not yet recognised three critical factors. First,

:27:32.:27:34.

consideration must be given when the school has been seriously

:27:35.:27:38.

underfunded for decades. My schools have been mending and making do for

:27:39.:27:43.

years. I do not exaggerate when I described to you broken window panes

:27:44.:27:47.

and holes in roots. Teaching assistants for us a luxury and the

:27:48.:27:51.

purchasing of textbooks and basic equipment is to ask of local

:27:52.:27:54.

businesses the community. The link or a teacher vacancies is often not

:27:55.:28:01.

possible. The government digital and appreciation of this when they

:28:02.:28:05.

provided a welcome boost of interim funding last year and this year

:28:06.:28:09.

also, but I'm afraid the reality is this. The money has been completely

:28:10.:28:14.

absorbed in pension and National Insurance increases. Furthermore,

:28:15.:28:17.

under the current funding proposals not only will this interim funding

:28:18.:28:21.

not be maintained as a starting baseline, 27 of my school to be even

:28:22.:28:26.

worst off, in real terms cut of about 4%. Every single one of my raw

:28:27.:28:31.

primary schools with less than a pupils would lose money and some of

:28:32.:28:36.

us today have spoken about spa city. May I please urged the Secretary of

:28:37.:28:41.

State to recognise that the new formula cannot simply be

:28:42.:28:46.

superimposed on a landscape of significant historical

:28:47.:28:47.

underinvestment. Not up we expect them schools to survive, let alone

:28:48.:28:51.

hold and closed the widening Free Schools meal attainment gap. In the

:28:52.:29:03.

next four years will have open 24 new schools in Cambridgeshire since

:29:04.:29:07.

2012 just a couple of basic need. It is not right that we subsidise that

:29:08.:29:13.

in those early years with money from existing skills. For example, a

:29:14.:29:18.

typical secondary school would contribute ?41,000 towards that out

:29:19.:29:21.

of the annual budget. I understand that growth in the consultation is

:29:22.:29:27.

open-ended, but we need to find a way of fixing that, perhaps a

:29:28.:29:32.

separate fund. I would ask that we look at the cost-of-living. In

:29:33.:29:37.

Cambridgeshire, average wages or house prices are around 16 times the

:29:38.:29:41.

average weights and we need to look at how we can help with teacher

:29:42.:29:43.

recruitment because budgets don't go that far. I believe genuinely there

:29:44.:29:51.

is a sincere desire to offer this proposed model of the road testing

:29:52.:29:54.

and that is what we're doing today, the tyres.

:29:55.:30:00.

Unsurprisingly I'm here to speak for the children of older. The children

:30:01.:30:07.

under these proposals who will be significantly affected by money

:30:08.:30:09.

being taken away from the much-needed education. I have

:30:10.:30:16.

interest, I have two young boys, both of whom will see, I will carry

:30:17.:30:22.

on full-time, I'm conscious there are other people who want to speak,

:30:23.:30:27.

both of whom will see real terms cut in their education provision in the

:30:28.:30:30.

same way another 60,000 young people in the town will do too. Every

:30:31.:30:36.

single one of old's 99 schools will see a cut, the average 9%. We are

:30:37.:30:44.

meant to do an opportunity area, the pavement paved with education gold

:30:45.:30:51.

if you listen to the Government benches. Recognised that there are

:30:52.:30:54.

issues with a determination from the Government they say to turn that

:30:55.:30:59.

around. We should welcome the investment of ?16 million.

:31:00.:31:06.

Unfortunately the Government then took ?70 million away -- 17, so tell

:31:07.:31:16.

me, tell the young people in Oldham and the parents and the teachers,

:31:17.:31:21.

where is the new money? How can you turn round educational attainment

:31:22.:31:26.

when it is so deep-rooted, when it is so unequal, where education

:31:27.:31:30.

hasn't been valued, but is desperate to realise the opportunities that

:31:31.:31:33.

those young people deserve for the future? Tell Oldham Howard has a

:31:34.:31:40.

positive future when the wrong is being taken from under it. We have

:31:41.:31:45.

seen in early years when money has been taken away, we sit in the sixth

:31:46.:31:50.

form College where nearly ?1 million has been taken away, we see an old

:31:51.:31:54.

college where ?3.5 million has been taken away. Money has been taken

:31:55.:32:00.

away and I don't resent for one second any Member of the House

:32:01.:32:05.

saying that their area needs more to provide for decent education. If you

:32:06.:32:09.

represent the Tory shire then fantastic, make that case, I support

:32:10.:32:13.

you, but not at the cost of children that have been let down and their

:32:14.:32:16.

families let down for generations, who need the chance more than most.

:32:17.:32:20.

The world is more complex than it has ever been, the skills that

:32:21.:32:25.

people need are going to be more complex than ever. But they are

:32:26.:32:28.

being set up to fail under this model so I make this plea. Next time

:32:29.:32:35.

the Secretary of State has its old and my constituency, instead of just

:32:36.:32:38.

giving a courtesy notice, why don't we attend a roundtable with the

:32:39.:32:43.

headteachers and the governors, to really listen and understand on the

:32:44.:32:47.

impact of these cuts. If the Government really does care, less

:32:48.:32:50.

words, more action and more investment. Solihull is mentioned in

:32:51.:32:58.

many service, not just one of the best places to live in the West

:32:59.:33:03.

Midlands but in the UK itself. That is in no small part due to its

:33:04.:33:07.

schools. My schools puts on a Herculean effort, they do more with

:33:08.:33:14.

less. And they have embraced change and gained the benefits from so

:33:15.:33:21.

doing. Despite they have lost out in the fairer funding formula for many

:33:22.:33:26.

years. I welcome the Government's commitment to make the changes that

:33:27.:33:30.

are necessary and although this is a consultation at the moment, I hope

:33:31.:33:34.

they will take on the comments so that we can get this right and set

:33:35.:33:40.

it for the future. While we do this we have to understand that in my

:33:41.:33:43.

constituency, secondary schools do gain and I'm grateful for that but

:33:44.:33:48.

primary schools don't. In some cases they lose up to 2.5%. In addition,

:33:49.:33:55.

the unequal treatment of the schools compare to those of neighbouring

:33:56.:34:00.

Birmingham is not yet fixed. Those in the city still enjoy a

:34:01.:34:03.

substantial per-pupil advantage currently standing at 1300 year,

:34:04.:34:08.

just to put this in a context in the real world for honourable members,

:34:09.:34:11.

Birmingham schools can use this extra cash to offer more competitive

:34:12.:34:16.

salaries and attract newly qualified teachers. Especially in mathematics

:34:17.:34:24.

and science which hurt schools in neighbouring communities who don't

:34:25.:34:28.

have the money to spare. They also have more funds to set aside for

:34:29.:34:33.

facilities, extracurricular activities, school trips and all of

:34:34.:34:35.

the other things which allow schools to provide a rich and well rounded

:34:36.:34:42.

education. In a compact urban region like the West Midlands, even small

:34:43.:34:45.

inequalities of this sort can have serious consequences for those left

:34:46.:34:50.

out. They are also more visible. Local headteachers tell me that

:34:51.:34:54.

parents regularly ask them why pupils in Birmingham are taken on

:34:55.:34:59.

exciting school trips but not their own children. This unfairness is all

:35:00.:35:03.

the worse because so many Birmingham children are actually educated in

:35:04.:35:09.

Solihull. In some cases up to 40% of the children in some of our local

:35:10.:35:13.

schools come from outside. But these peoples don't bring funding

:35:14.:35:17.

advantages. I'm pleased the need for fairer funding in our schools is now

:35:18.:35:22.

widely recognised and the Government is grasping the nettle. The current

:35:23.:35:26.

proposals are an important first step. But they must go further to

:35:27.:35:38.

end the unequal treatment. Thank you Mr Speaker. Teachers in the Borough

:35:39.:35:41.

of Hounslow have achieved amazing results over the last ten years,

:35:42.:35:46.

almost all of our schools are good or outstanding, value added is

:35:47.:35:50.

positive in every school and this is in a borough were all of the schools

:35:51.:35:54.

and all the classrooms have children with additional needs of some kind.

:35:55.:36:00.

Children who arrive not speaking English, children with disabilities

:36:01.:36:03.

and special educational needs, children who are homeless and keep

:36:04.:36:07.

having to move on. All who sofa surfing with parents. And many other

:36:08.:36:11.

needs, most of the schools suffer from severe aircraft noise as planes

:36:12.:36:17.

approach Heathrow. The overall savings proposed by the Department

:36:18.:36:21.

for Education in my constituency that they will face by 2018-19 with

:36:22.:36:25.

a combination of the national funding formula proposed and the

:36:26.:36:32.

wide cost measures 5.1 million which is 6.2% cuts. The overall cost

:36:33.:36:41.

pressures include members mentioned here today, inflation, the

:36:42.:36:44.

apprenticeship levy, pension and national insurance cost, independent

:36:45.:36:52.

career advice, more special needs, like the Secretary of State's

:36:53.:36:57.

constituency, those pressures that my headmasters have to face on the

:36:58.:37:06.

whole, fewer teachers and fewer support, we have established that

:37:07.:37:10.

for each of our secondary schools, they will have to lose between nine

:37:11.:37:16.

and 18 teachers. For primary schools up to 11 fewer teachers. It will

:37:17.:37:24.

mean fewer subjects taught at Key stage 4-5, fewer external physics,

:37:25.:37:31.

fewer specialists to tell children about future jobs or staying safe or

:37:32.:37:39.

other issues that we want children to learn in London it means less

:37:40.:37:42.

individual support for children with individual needs or who are very

:37:43.:37:53.

gifted. The agency costs for supply teachers as our headteachers phase

:37:54.:37:59.

the recruitment and retention crisis that is affecting all subject areas.

:38:00.:38:04.

That is leading again to the salary bill. And for the classrooms that

:38:05.:38:12.

have children who have additional attention, the impact of the cuts

:38:13.:38:19.

are there every day. More classes are being taught with only one

:38:20.:38:28.

teacher, that is a cost that every car child. Those with additional

:38:29.:38:34.

needs and those with not. The cuts mean less time improving material or

:38:35.:38:37.

outdoor space which the curricula requires. I am grateful to catch

:38:38.:38:47.

your eye. I commend the Secretary of State for tackling this issue

:38:48.:38:52.

because it is clear from the debate that a modification of the Lincoln

:38:53.:38:55.

dictum on this issue you could only play some of the people some of the

:38:56.:39:00.

time. And inevitably where there is no more cash around, there will be

:39:01.:39:04.

winners and losers but unfortunately my constituency is one of the big

:39:05.:39:11.

losers. Having campaigned for over ten years, with the horizon, the son

:39:12.:39:21.

on the horizon, when it has arrived at a consultation, to find that my

:39:22.:39:25.

schools actually get less money, in Gloucestershire this year we will

:39:26.:39:30.

get a .8% cash terms increase and in the Cotswolds it is a .3% cash terms

:39:31.:39:37.

increase, two thirds of my schools get a cut and a third of my schools

:39:38.:39:41.

get a very small increase. When you consider that in Gloucestershire the

:39:42.:39:47.

schools were already very efficient, they amalgamated a lot of back

:39:48.:39:52.

office functions and formed partnerships, the secondary schools

:39:53.:39:56.

did everything they could and were one of the earliest secondary

:39:57.:39:59.

schools in the country to become academy so Gloucestershire is a very

:40:00.:40:03.

efficient county. Then to find that we have this cash terms cuts on top

:40:04.:40:09.

of the Government having imposed increases above inflation for

:40:10.:40:15.

funding teachers, funding minimum wage, funding pensions, finding

:40:16.:40:19.

national insurance and funding procurement, on top of inflation and

:40:20.:40:23.

to get a cash terms cut for over half my schools is a real squeeze on

:40:24.:40:30.

education in Gloucestershire. I should at this point pay tribute to

:40:31.:40:32.

my parents and governors in the schools because the vast majority of

:40:33.:40:40.

them go well over the last mile to give my children the best of their

:40:41.:40:46.

education and we have reasonable results given the funding. The

:40:47.:40:49.

result of the concentration and the figures I've given puts

:40:50.:40:56.

Gloucestershire down from 108th 216th in the league and that is

:40:57.:41:02.

simply unacceptable because what it means some teacher posts will

:41:03.:41:09.

definitely be lost. -- 108 two 116th. Thank you for giving way. I

:41:10.:41:16.

wanted to ask the honourable gentleman if he would do what I

:41:17.:41:20.

would do witches encourage my governors and parents to feed into

:41:21.:41:23.

the consultation because I suspect there some anomalies. I would urge

:41:24.:41:31.

all people in my position and I'm sure sitting next to my neighbour

:41:32.:41:36.

here that many, not only all Gloucestershire MPs will feeding but

:41:37.:41:39.

many of my grieved head teachers and parents and governors will also feed

:41:40.:41:44.

on. Getting back to where was in my speech, I think it is inevitable we

:41:45.:41:48.

will lose teacher training posts. It is inevitable some of our schools

:41:49.:41:54.

will close and it is inevitable some of the secondary schools who face of

:41:55.:41:57.

the largest cut will actually have to reduce the breadth of the

:41:58.:42:03.

curriculum that they offer. Every child in the country on their school

:42:04.:42:08.

should have roughly the same breath of curriculum and I expect in a

:42:09.:42:14.

smaller school it is more difficult but as a result of government

:42:15.:42:19.

policy, to find the choice of their A-level is no longer available, it

:42:20.:42:23.

is difficult. I would simply say this to my honourable friend, I know

:42:24.:42:28.

this is a consultation, but I want to see some radical ostentation, the

:42:29.:42:33.

weighting of changes and other measures is too high. I think basic

:42:34.:42:40.

people funding should under no circumstances be cut. Thank you Mr

:42:41.:42:49.

Speaker. I want to pay tribute to the Shadow Secretary of State in

:42:50.:42:55.

made a brilliant speech and as demonstrated that education matters

:42:56.:43:00.

in our country. I have three brief points Mr Speaker. Firstly the

:43:01.:43:03.

narrative of this discussion is completely wrong. It is typical Tory

:43:04.:43:10.

divide and rule strategy. I do not believe that those who might gain

:43:11.:43:18.

out of a change of the funding formula, though schools want to do

:43:19.:43:23.

so at the expense of other children, other teachers and other schools. I

:43:24.:43:34.

used this example, I know that they do not want to do so at the expense

:43:35.:43:39.

of children and schools in Liverpool in Sefton and in the Wirral. They

:43:40.:43:44.

don't want that. You don't need to divide people, we should be bringing

:43:45.:43:49.

people together. Schools in Wirral looks set to lose hundreds of pounds

:43:50.:43:55.

per pupil and this plays into another classic Tory narrative which

:43:56.:43:58.

is you don't need money to get anywhere in life, you don't need

:43:59.:44:04.

money to help in education, the Member for South Cambridgeshire said

:44:05.:44:07.

money is not sufficient to drive achievement. Money may not be a

:44:08.:44:14.

sufficient condition but it is a necessary condition and all the

:44:15.:44:19.

evidence points that out and I'm sat next to my friend for West Derby who

:44:20.:44:24.

led the London challenge and I know that he would say it was reform and

:44:25.:44:28.

improvement, alongside decent funding that got those achievements.

:44:29.:44:32.

That we are all proud of. Will see join me in welcoming one

:44:33.:44:42.

element of the funding formula, the inclusion for the first time

:44:43.:44:48.

vulnerability factor, and does she agree with me that it ought to be

:44:49.:44:52.

larger than the knot .1% of the total allocated? I would say to my

:44:53.:44:58.

honourable friend I have never disagreed with them yet and I don't

:44:59.:45:05.

now. I would bring my speech to a close by saying this. As a member of

:45:06.:45:09.

Parliament I am afraid of very little but I still get nervous when

:45:10.:45:13.

I have to go and see local headteachers, so I just to finish by

:45:14.:45:18.

giving the final words of my speech over to those headteachers. Mark

:45:19.:45:24.

Whitehill, the head of data in primary he said a simple truth, if

:45:25.:45:32.

education really is a priority we need the staff to deliver it, which

:45:33.:45:38.

is agreed with by Katherine Kelly, another brilliant headteacher in my

:45:39.:45:43.

area, he said that her job is about life chances but colleagues who she

:45:44.:45:47.

respects it is fantastic educationalists are now talking

:45:48.:45:50.

about leaving the profession because as headteachers they are not

:45:51.:45:53.

focusing on the right things, having to balance the books and make ends

:45:54.:46:00.

meet. They are invariably being set up to fail. She is frugal and if

:46:01.:46:04.

they are overstaffed she knows it is a waste of the student's resources

:46:05.:46:07.

and she would never make that happen. She says she is afraid the

:46:08.:46:12.

government does not understand education, which I believe is true.

:46:13.:46:18.

The last word to aggregate head from the Wirral, he says that the

:46:19.:46:23.

fundamental issue is that there is not enough money in the system.

:46:24.:46:28.

Teacher recruitment shortages and massive underfunding places

:46:29.:46:31.

children's education and well-being at risk. This is creating a perfect

:46:32.:46:38.

storm. I think those three headset that are better than I ever could

:46:39.:46:41.

and I would ask the Secretary of State to learn the lessons of

:46:42.:46:45.

schools in own constituency, that money is not all you need but you

:46:46.:46:49.

can't do without it if you want to give kids a chance. Five more

:46:50.:47:00.

speeches. Two minutes each will suffice. Colleagues can help each

:47:01.:47:07.

other. Many parents are attracted to my constituency by the excellence of

:47:08.:47:10.

our schools and I look forward to visiting Oakfield primary this

:47:11.:47:18.

coming Friday. We have a broad range, including bilateral school

:47:19.:47:22.

which gives cool Education Bill grammar school places and is

:47:23.:47:26.

incredibly popular and oversubscribed. In Warwickshire, it

:47:27.:47:37.

will remain one of the lowest kind piece at ?4293 per pupil, amongst

:47:38.:47:40.

the lowest figures we have heard discussed today. It is a credit to

:47:41.:47:46.

the heads and staff of the schools are my constituency that they are

:47:47.:47:50.

able to achieve such excellence with this particular sum. We will see a

:47:51.:47:55.

1.1% total increase which is very welcome, and that will affect 29

:47:56.:47:59.

schools are my constituency, mostly rural primary is. At nine or less of

:48:00.:48:05.

my schools will receive the same rather less. In many cases these are

:48:06.:48:10.

the excellent secondaries I just preferred to, one of which will lose

:48:11.:48:14.

?90,000 a year. Many of these schools have six forms they face a

:48:15.:48:19.

particular challenge what they have smaller classes, often the very

:48:20.:48:26.

A-Levels that lead onto the qualifications that our country so

:48:27.:48:31.

badly needs. Since coming to office this government has been steadfast

:48:32.:48:35.

in its commitment to ensure that all children get a world-class

:48:36.:48:38.

education. This level is the system out. It is fairer system. The front

:48:39.:48:44.

bench speaker on the other side was talking about cuts, but there are no

:48:45.:48:48.

cuts. The Secretary of State has made it clear that the overall

:48:49.:48:51.

budget remains the same. This is about ensuring that we allocate the

:48:52.:48:55.

funds of the nervous system fairly and to make sure we have a level

:48:56.:48:59.

playing field between pupils from across our country. Briefly, in the

:49:00.:49:09.

two minutes I have, I would like to welcome the government's commitment

:49:10.:49:13.

to this and I would like to commend the Secretary of State for tackling

:49:14.:49:17.

something that isn't difficult. The honourable member for Wirral spoke

:49:18.:49:20.

about fairness. Fairness to me is the fact that the honourable member

:49:21.:49:28.

for Ashton underlined currently receives ?178 per pupil more than my

:49:29.:49:32.

children in Suffolk. After this she will receive 219 pounds per pupil

:49:33.:49:38.

more. That is why I would like the consultation just to look and iron

:49:39.:49:43.

out these anomalies. We are really grateful in Suffolk with the uplift

:49:44.:49:47.

but I have campaigned for a fairer funding and my children deserve to

:49:48.:49:51.

be treated equally. It is too complex to do in one go, I

:49:52.:49:56.

appreciate that, because it would mean we walloped some schools harder

:49:57.:50:02.

than others. So we need to be gentle with this trajectory, but we must

:50:03.:50:05.

not stand back and not grasp it because it has gone on too long,

:50:06.:50:09.

that our children particularly in rural areas, we are all underfunded

:50:10.:50:17.

in those areas. We have had to play second fiddle to large metropolitan

:50:18.:50:25.

areas whose children don't deserve more life chances, they deserve the

:50:26.:50:30.

same life chances. I have areas of deprivation, I have children who

:50:31.:50:35.

could do with more money being spent on their education. This is the

:50:36.:50:39.

right way to continue. This morning I had a roundtable of businesses and

:50:40.:50:43.

educationalists from across the region. They are talking about

:50:44.:50:47.

skills. Please let's contribute a bit on early years. In Suffolk we

:50:48.:50:53.

are losing more than we currently spend on it and we provide this

:50:54.:50:58.

outstanding education. Please look at rural England and don't assume

:50:59.:51:02.

that we have everything, we didn't. Please, when we consult... I will

:51:03.:51:09.

try to be short and pithy and to the point. I am a school governor of St

:51:10.:51:18.

Andrews primary school in a very deprived community. I have to tell

:51:19.:51:23.

the Secretary of State and the Minister that there is an 11 to 12

:51:24.:51:28.

year life expectancy difference from the north-east to the south-west of

:51:29.:51:38.

my constituency. I was the agent to the then Minister of the Department

:51:39.:51:42.

for Education in the 1980s when we introduce local management of

:51:43.:51:44.

schools and the National Curriculum and things like that. Let me put

:51:45.:51:50.

this straight and say I am very grateful to the government for

:51:51.:51:52.

having a look at the fresh formula of funding and my constituency has

:51:53.:52:00.

done quite well. We have 4% increase in the amount of money that will be

:52:01.:52:04.

given to schools. For my prospective, that is incredibly good

:52:05.:52:09.

news. The one issue which is concerning that is what happens to

:52:10.:52:13.

the grammar schools and I'm incredibly grateful to my honourable

:52:14.:52:17.

friend the schools minister who has agreed to meet with my grammar

:52:18.:52:20.

schools to talk about how they could try and improve that position. We

:52:21.:52:29.

have a very good education offer in my constituency, not only three

:52:30.:52:35.

grammar schools, but as UDC and I creative arts school. I am very

:52:36.:52:41.

grateful to the government, both the Coalition Government that this

:52:42.:52:46.

government, for that. Please don't let anybody down. I was proud to

:52:47.:52:56.

stand on an election platform for this government had delivered 1.4

:52:57.:53:00.

million good and outstanding school places over the last six years. That

:53:01.:53:05.

this was delivered in the most challenging financial circumstances

:53:06.:53:08.

as to the credit of this government and to the teachers across the

:53:09.:53:14.

country. I am also conscious that the government is spending record

:53:15.:53:18.

amounts of money, ?40 billion, in our schools protecting the budget. I

:53:19.:53:23.

also recognise that other laudable policies from this government to

:53:24.:53:28.

invest in on -- in our workers and give our workers pay rise are eating

:53:29.:53:33.

into this budget and it is a budget that is largely spent on employees.

:53:34.:53:40.

I had hoped that the school funding formula would address some of the

:53:41.:53:44.

shortfalls in my constituency, but unfortunately, whilst getting a 1.5%

:53:45.:53:49.

increase over all the constituency, 16 of my schools will receive an

:53:50.:53:55.

increase, but 23 will receive funding drop. That causes me concern

:53:56.:53:59.

as I very much hope that the consultation will see some of those

:54:00.:54:03.

concerns I died. I recognise that the opposition have a job to oppose,

:54:04.:54:10.

but it is fine to be long on talk and say the right things, but

:54:11.:54:14.

delivering new ideas and policies to make things better quite frankly was

:54:15.:54:16.

an appalling act this afternoon. On that note can I suggest three

:54:17.:54:23.

matters that may help without impacting our wish to eradicate the

:54:24.:54:27.

deficit. Firstly, schools and education has to be the number one

:54:28.:54:31.

priority for increasing productivity. We have a ?23 -- 20 ?3

:54:32.:54:38.

billion productivity fun to set up, can we tap into that? Secondly, is

:54:39.:54:43.

there a way to find schools not to be included within the

:54:44.:54:47.

apprenticeship levy. Our schools are looking after mental health, can we

:54:48.:54:52.

find some way to tap into that funding? I am fully supportive that

:54:53.:54:56.

every school should be funded the same way creating a level playing

:54:57.:55:01.

field. In 2010 the Labour government tried to implement a funding formula

:55:02.:55:05.

but at that time it was ?4000 and much of the gas -- and most of that

:55:06.:55:15.

was in PFI. We have the highest amount in our history going into

:55:16.:55:19.

education, and we should be positive. We should not have a

:55:20.:55:25.

system where some areas they get less money per pupil. For too long

:55:26.:55:30.

the disparity of funding between areas of the country for no real

:55:31.:55:33.

reason has been ignored and I am proud to have stood on a manifesto

:55:34.:55:41.

that pledged to change that. I have run... The figures which have been

:55:42.:55:48.

formulated and been quoted in the chamber had been plucked out of thin

:55:49.:55:54.

air. Money over an area divided by Maxima money to be claimed per

:55:55.:55:57.

school but never is, they're not taking into account the number of

:55:58.:56:01.

pupils. This website that information published about areas

:56:02.:56:05.

and schools before the department even announced any figures. I am fed

:56:06.:56:16.

up of unions politicising children are my constituency. We have heads

:56:17.:56:23.

in my areas unionising the kids. Surprise surprise, those kids did

:56:24.:56:36.

worst in the area. To wrap up, respectfully, I think this is a very

:56:37.:56:40.

good move and I hope that the government implemented sooner rather

:56:41.:56:43.

than later to give all of our children of there fighting chance.

:56:44.:56:52.

So, for the first time in a generation schools will face higher

:56:53.:56:56.

spending cut in the budgets. The Secretary of State right out of the

:56:57.:57:01.

gate chanters. In her authority area that equates to a 15% cut, with ?13

:57:02.:57:10.

million, not pure schools budget by 2020, so I look forward to

:57:11.:57:13.

campaigning in her constituency on this. The department expects schools

:57:14.:57:18.

to find ?3 billion worth of savings in this Parliament to counteract the

:57:19.:57:25.

cost pressures including pay rises, the National Living Wage, higher

:57:26.:57:28.

employer contributions, National Insurance, the teachers pension

:57:29.:57:32.

scheme and the apprenticeship levy. This was well pointed out that the

:57:33.:57:36.

members of Kingston and Surbiton. He was unhappy with the national

:57:37.:57:40.

funding formula. Overall, in this Parliament, he will receive a 12%.

:57:41.:57:44.

It was rightly pointed out about those pressures from my honourable

:57:45.:57:53.

colleague behind me. This equates to an 8% terms reduction per pupil

:57:54.:57:57.

funding in this Parliament. The department regularly compiles a list

:57:58.:58:05.

of future policy changes, things that will affect schools, but has no

:58:06.:58:09.

plans to assess the financial implications for schools of these

:58:10.:58:14.

changes. We have no assurances that these policies are affordable within

:58:15.:58:18.

current spending plans without adversely affecting educational

:58:19.:58:24.

outcomes. Government is leaving schools and trusts to manage the

:58:25.:58:28.

consequences individually. The department has not clearly

:58:29.:58:31.

communicated to schools the scale and pace of the savings needed to

:58:32.:58:37.

meet the expected cost pressures. The proportion of maintained and

:58:38.:58:42.

secondary school spending more of their income increased last year

:58:43.:58:49.

from 33% to 59%. This government, no matter what the member for Devon

:58:50.:58:56.

says, has racked up a ?1.7 trillion debt on its watch and now wants to

:58:57.:59:00.

pass on part of bad debt to our school system. The Department expect

:59:01.:59:06.

much of the savings to come from procurement and the introduction of

:59:07.:59:12.

shared services. Change to procurement and shared services

:59:13.:59:16.

requires strong leadership, clear plans for achieving savings,

:59:17.:59:20.

effective risk management and support from stakeholders.

:59:21.:59:23.

Leadership clearly lacking from the benches opposite. The Minister

:59:24.:59:29.

himself said he is confident that pages of guidance on the Department

:59:30.:59:33.

website will provide enough support for schools in this task. It will

:59:34.:59:36.

not. School leaders without support our

:59:37.:59:48.

as the National Audit Office address, likely to make decisions

:59:49.:59:52.

that will make teacher retention crisis worse. The audit office went

:59:53.:59:57.

on to say and I quote, the department 's approach to managing

:59:58.:00:01.

risks at school, financial sustainability, cannot be judged to

:00:02.:00:08.

give value for money currently. It is important to recognise the impact

:00:09.:00:15.

that this will have on staff. We expect already unsustainable

:00:16.:00:20.

workload pressures will eventually start to bite, additionally the

:00:21.:00:27.

amount in savings will lead to worse educational outcomes and this will

:00:28.:00:32.

have the biggest impact on those from the most deprived areas and

:00:33.:00:37.

those with special needs. We know that staff costs represent the

:00:38.:00:42.

largest single expenditure of any school, 74% of schools budgets go on

:00:43.:00:47.

staff so it's not hard to see in order to save money, schools will

:00:48.:00:51.

inevitably end up cutting back more staff and this will have a knock-on

:00:52.:00:56.

effect on workload, morale, class sizes, the breadth of the curriculum

:00:57.:01:00.

that schools can offer and all of this is happening at a time and we

:01:01.:01:09.

are expecting a 3% increase. We have a bad situation compounded by the

:01:10.:01:15.

National funding formula, some MPs opposite and they have really missed

:01:16.:01:18.

the point here he had been expecting jam tomorrow from their manifesto

:01:19.:01:25.

commitment are waking up to the reality that the schools in their

:01:26.:01:28.

constituency will not benefit from the introduction. Hardly any area in

:01:29.:01:40.

the country is left unscathed. That they were excellent speeches that

:01:41.:01:43.

point about the funding formula is not appointed, it's the cuts and

:01:44.:01:48.

pressures that the schools face. I asked the Member for South Cambridge

:01:49.:01:52.

to speak to her college from South East Cambridgeshire who completely

:01:53.:01:55.

missed the point and the House will be astonished at the slap in the

:01:56.:01:58.

face to Northern teachers that they are not ambitious enough for the

:01:59.:02:05.

people. This from a government that introduced the worry reports... I

:02:06.:02:13.

give way. I'm grateful and if you listen to my speech carefully he

:02:14.:02:17.

would have understood that I was quoting the Ofsted report of 2016,

:02:18.:02:21.

they were not my words, they were the words of Ofsted. A slap in the

:02:22.:02:28.

face and her authority in Cambridgeshire will face a 4% cuts

:02:29.:02:35.

from all pressures that are going on. In conclusion what I would say

:02:36.:02:44.

is this. The Tories are failing our children. They are overseeing the

:02:45.:02:56.

first real term cuts in decade since the 1970s by their own preferred

:02:57.:02:59.

measure on standards, they have declined in the world rankings which

:03:00.:03:07.

they define themselves. The Minister will stand in a minute and talking

:03:08.:03:14.

about 1.8 million children or symphonic, however that was because

:03:15.:03:17.

labour identified those schools and Ofsted came back to reassessment and

:03:18.:03:23.

there are more children in the Cesc them and they are in the primary

:03:24.:03:27.

system so finally this dire system is one which will only continue to

:03:28.:03:34.

worsen with the cuts in place by this government and their new

:03:35.:03:45.

funding formula. But of course the students tested in 2015 spend the

:03:46.:03:49.

primary years educated under a Labour government, not under the

:03:50.:03:51.

reforms implemented by this government. This has been an

:03:52.:03:59.

important debate with excellent contributions by nonmembers on all

:04:00.:04:02.

sides at a time when the Government is consulting on details and

:04:03.:04:07.

weightings on the factor that will make up the new funding formula. The

:04:08.:04:12.

honourable Member in front of the launched our debate today with her

:04:13.:04:17.

joke of robbing Peter breath to play pool. Alas her facts are as weak as

:04:18.:04:25.

her joke because Peterborough will see a rise of 2.7%, an increase and

:04:26.:04:37.

pool will see a rise of somewhat 1.1% under the formula. What we have

:04:38.:04:41.

learned today is that Labour don't support the principle of equal

:04:42.:04:47.

funding. Half of the members opposite will see a net gain in

:04:48.:04:52.

funding as a result of the new formula including the honourable

:04:53.:04:55.

Member for Oldham were finding will increase by ?1.7 million with an

:04:56.:05:02.

extra ?1.2 million in the constituency. My Member for

:05:03.:05:09.

Stroud... I won't give way, I honourable Member for Stroud asked

:05:10.:05:13.

us to look again at the deprivation. The proportion of the formula we

:05:14.:05:19.

have applied for deprivation reflects the local authorities are

:05:20.:05:24.

already doing across the country. The Member for Liverpool West Derby

:05:25.:05:29.

asked about high needs funding. Liverpool is due to gain 14.4% in

:05:30.:05:33.

high needs funding under the formula with increases at 3%. My honourable

:05:34.:05:42.

friend for Louth and Horncastle was right to say that the new National

:05:43.:05:46.

funding formula is resulting in the cake being cut a little more fairly.

:05:47.:05:51.

My honourable friend for Mid Dorset and North Poole was right to point

:05:52.:05:56.

out the flaw and a Labour motion. The Government is not cutting school

:05:57.:06:02.

spending, it is at an all-time high. I welcome supportive speeches...

:06:03.:06:15.

Rugby, Bury St Edmunds, Plymouth, Basildon, Morecambe and Lonsdale. In

:06:16.:06:21.

our manifesto we promised to remedy the unfair act realistic funding

:06:22.:06:31.

system that no longer worked. Rather than the make-up of the student

:06:32.:06:35.

population today. An outdated system, fixed in amber where people

:06:36.:06:39.

in Brighton and hopes secure at ?1600 more than the people in East

:06:40.:06:45.

Sussex with countless examples of unfairness up and down the country.

:06:46.:06:49.

The Government has rarely consulted a set of principles that should

:06:50.:06:54.

drive this formula. It basic unit of funding, one for primary schools,

:06:55.:06:58.

won the Key stage three secondary people someone for Key stage for

:06:59.:07:02.

secondary pupils, this figure would make up the vast bulk of the formula

:07:03.:07:06.

and would be the same figure for every school in England. On top of

:07:07.:07:12.

this, there is a factor for deprivation. Ensuring that schools

:07:13.:07:15.

are able to close the educational and filly attainment gap. A factor

:07:16.:07:23.

for ensuring schools can help children who start school

:07:24.:07:28.

educationally behind peers. Factor. City and addressing cost pressures

:07:29.:07:34.

unique to rural schools. Mobility factors for school that that

:07:35.:07:37.

routinely take people's part way through the year and a lump sum to

:07:38.:07:41.

help address the fixed costs that disproportionately affects more

:07:42.:07:46.

schools and the fact that takes into factor high employment costs in

:07:47.:07:49.

London and some other areas. These are the right factors as responses

:07:50.:07:54.

to the first stage of the consultation confirmed, they are the

:07:55.:07:58.

right factors because they will help drive education reforms the school

:07:59.:08:02.

which already resulting in higher academic standards and raised

:08:03.:08:07.

expectations. They will further drive the determination that all

:08:08.:08:12.

children regardless of background or ability can become fluent readers by

:08:13.:08:18.

the age of six, 81% of six-year-olds are now compare to just 58% five

:08:19.:08:23.

years ago. They are the factors Mr Deputy Speaker that will help

:08:24.:08:26.

further drive the introduction of new academic demanding

:08:27.:08:33.

knowledge-based GCSE is putting our public exams in qualifications on

:08:34.:08:39.

par with the best in the world. As part of the consultation, we wanted

:08:40.:08:44.

to be transparent of the effects of the new formula on every school in

:08:45.:08:49.

every local authority on the basis of this year 's figures. 54% of

:08:50.:08:54.

schools will gain under the new formula. With any new formula, there

:08:55.:09:02.

will be winners and losers. Even within local authority areas which

:09:03.:09:07.

gain overall, some schools with fewer factors which drive additional

:09:08.:09:11.

funding will see small losses in income, that is the nature of any

:09:12.:09:17.

new formula built on whatever basis or weightings, unless of course the

:09:18.:09:22.

new formula maintains the status quo. But accepting that a new

:09:23.:09:30.

formula by definition produces winners and losers, and accepting

:09:31.:09:33.

that we are ensuring losing schools lose no more than 1.5% per pupil in

:09:34.:09:41.

any year and no more than 3% in total, and accepting that gaining

:09:42.:09:46.

schools will see gains expedited by up to 3% and by up to 2.5% in

:09:47.:09:56.

2019-20 and accepting in principle that factors of deprivation and low

:09:57.:10:01.

prior attainment of right. What is left is the question of whether the

:10:02.:10:05.

weightings are right. These are weightings crafted to jive social

:10:06.:10:13.

mobility. These are weightings calculated to help children who are

:10:14.:10:18.

falling behind in school. They are weightings by our desire to do more

:10:19.:10:23.

for children from disadvantaged backgrounds. Mr Deputy Speaker, the

:10:24.:10:27.

National funding formula is not about the issue of the overall level

:10:28.:10:31.

of funding or the cost pressures that schools are facing over the

:10:32.:10:37.

three years from 2016 - 19, the National funding formula is about

:10:38.:10:41.

creating a nationally delivered and fair funding system. We want to

:10:42.:10:45.

grasp the nettle, and metal that previous governments have

:10:46.:10:51.

assiduously avoided and introduce a funding formula ending the postcode

:10:52.:10:54.

lottery and ensuring over time they have a much fairer funding system.

:10:55.:11:08.

An essential task if we are to continue the high levels of

:11:09.:11:11.

employment and the employment opportunities for young people.

:11:12.:11:14.

Despite that pressure, we have managed to protect core school

:11:15.:11:21.

spending in real terms. In 2015-16, we added a further ?319 million and

:11:22.:11:28.

there will be a further ?200 million in the next two years to expedite

:11:29.:11:30.

the gains for those historically underfunded schools. Despite this,

:11:31.:11:40.

we know schools are facing cost pressures and as a result of the

:11:41.:11:43.

introduction of the national living wage. Or increases to teaching

:11:44.:11:52.

pensions and the apprenticeship levy. Similar pressures are being

:11:53.:11:58.

faced across the public sector and indeed in the private sector and

:11:59.:12:02.

they are addressed by increased efficiencies and better

:12:03.:12:04.

procurements. It is important to note that some of these pressures

:12:05.:12:09.

have already materialised. The 8% that people refer to is not an

:12:10.:12:16.

estimate of pressure still to come, schools have dealt with pressures

:12:17.:12:21.

averaging 3.1% for peoples and over the next years 's per-pupil pressure

:12:22.:12:26.

will average higher. And to tackle these pressures, the Department is

:12:27.:12:32.

providing high quality advice and guidance for schools about their

:12:33.:12:38.

budget management and are helping to introduce national buying schemes

:12:39.:12:40.

for products and services such as IT. Were listening to the responses

:12:41.:12:48.

of the consultation and to the concerns raised by my honourable

:12:49.:12:52.

friend and honourable members opposite, the Secretary of State and

:12:53.:12:57.

I've heard representations on some life funded authorities of whether

:12:58.:13:02.

there is a limited level to fun secondary schools needs. In

:13:03.:13:08.

circumstances where fewer peoples have additional needs funding. We

:13:09.:13:12.

will look at this as we will all the other concerns of honourable and

:13:13.:13:17.

their other concerns raised. This government 's Mr Deputy Speaker is

:13:18.:13:22.

taking the bold decision and the right decision, we are acting to

:13:23.:13:26.

right the wrongs of a seemingly arbitrary and fair funding system.

:13:27.:13:31.

Whilst fixing the economy, the Government has transformed the

:13:32.:13:38.

education system, we have ended and brought confidence back into exams,

:13:39.:13:44.

effective teaching methods and systematic phonics are

:13:45.:13:49.

revolutionising the way primary pupils are being taught. More pupils

:13:50.:13:53.

are being taught core academic subjects that facilitate study at

:13:54.:13:56.

this country's world leading universities. More peoples are

:13:57.:14:03.

judged by Ofsted. The attainment gap disadvantaged 16-year-olds INAUDIBLE

:14:04.:14:15.

The question is, the question now be put. Mr Gul! I think you need to

:14:16.:14:27.

calm a little. A little peppermint tea might help the rest of us. He is

:14:28.:14:34.

on the naughty step. The question is that the question I be put. I'm

:14:35.:14:50.

macro? The ayes have it. Division! Clear the lobbies!

:14:51.:17:02.

The question is, many of that opinion is a aye. To the contrary,

:17:03.:17:06.

no. Order! Order. The ayes to the right,

:17:07.:28:47.

178. The noes to the left, 285. The ayes to the right, 178. The noes to

:28:48.:28:55.

the left, 285. The noes have it, the noes have it. Unlock. The question

:28:56.:29:07.

is that the proposed words... The ayes have it. I declare the question

:29:08.:29:12.

as amended be agreed to. Order, order, the debate stands adjourned.

:29:13.:29:19.

We are now coming to the petition. I call upon Claire Perry. Thank you,

:29:20.:29:26.

Mr Deputy Speaker. I rise to present the Justice for James petition on

:29:27.:29:31.

behalf of more than 14,000 residents of the United Kingdom who have

:29:32.:29:35.

signed this and similar online petitions. The petitioners request

:29:36.:29:39.

that members of the House of Commons urge the government to change the

:29:40.:29:44.

law, so that sentencing for death caused by the most extreme forms of

:29:45.:29:48.

dangerous driving should carry a charge of manslaughter.

:29:49.:30:07.

Petition sentence for death but dangerous driving.

:30:08.:30:19.

I beg to move that this house does not adjourn.

:30:20.:30:22.

-- now. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. I secured this debate following the

:30:23.:30:34.

experience of one of my constituents, former Rifleman Lee

:30:35.:30:40.

Bagley of number five two of the company of the two rifles battalion.

:30:41.:30:46.

Former Rifleman Lee Bagley had his right leg amputated the knee in

:30:47.:30:53.

September 2012 following an incident which took place on the night of the

:30:54.:30:59.

24th on the 25th of February 2000 and ten. His experience during the

:31:00.:31:06.

31 months between the date of the incident and the amputation

:31:07.:31:11.

highlight issues of duty of care which he and I believe need to be

:31:12.:31:20.

examined. And lessons learnt to ensure that no servicemen in the

:31:21.:31:24.

future has to go through the experience that my constituents

:31:25.:31:31.

endured. Rifleman Lee Bagley returned from a tour of Afghanistan

:31:32.:31:38.

towards the end of 2009. Subsequently underwent further

:31:39.:31:44.

training in Northern Ireland. On the 24th of February 2010, the platoon

:31:45.:31:49.

were accommodated by the School of infantry at Brecon to rendezvous

:31:50.:31:56.

with new platoon commanders before flying to Belize at 5pm on the 25th.

:31:57.:32:07.

To undergo jungle training. On the afternoon of the 24th of February,

:32:08.:32:11.

the platoon commander ordered the platoon to attend a night out in

:32:12.:32:18.

Brecon town as a means of reward for having completed an intensive

:32:19.:32:25.

training package in preparation for the forthcoming exercise and to

:32:26.:32:30.

benefit from some team bonding, particularly for those new members

:32:31.:32:34.

of the platoon who had just completed a strenuous tour in

:32:35.:32:41.

Afghanistan. On the morning of the 25th of February at approximately

:32:42.:32:48.

2am, the platoon was leaving a bar and getting in to taxis to head back

:32:49.:32:53.

to the local barracks. One of the Batu members was then seriously

:32:54.:32:58.

assaulted by 10-12 civilian personnel. Along with fellow members

:32:59.:33:04.

of the platoon, Lee Bagley rushed to the aid of his comrade and was also

:33:05.:33:10.

assaulted. In trying to rescue his comrades, a number of the attackers

:33:11.:33:16.

jumped on Lee's leg. The original victim of the assaults went

:33:17.:33:21.

immediately to accident and emergency bitterly himself returned

:33:22.:33:24.

to his camp. He did not receive any immediate medical treatment and it

:33:25.:33:29.

was only later that day that he started to complain of pain and

:33:30.:33:33.

swelling in his leg to his platoon commander who then took him to the

:33:34.:33:37.

accident and emergency en route to visiting his colleague ready. The

:33:38.:33:45.

platoon subsequently flew out without a Lee and he was flown to

:33:46.:33:53.

Northern Ireland where he had to visit Downpatrick hospital as

:33:54.:33:55.

requested by the Chief Medical Officer at the camp. From February

:33:56.:34:07.

the 25th to October the 27th 2010 in Northern Ireland, he received

:34:08.:34:13.

physiotherapy but failed to make any progress. He attended the

:34:14.:34:21.

rehabilitation unit and received an MRI scan on the 22nd. I did request

:34:22.:34:33.

just beforehand, did the members agree a duty of care as he

:34:34.:34:39.

exemplified for the soldier in place also exists for those who fought

:34:40.:34:42.

under operation Banner in Northern Ireland where some 30,000 British

:34:43.:34:48.

soldiers were deployed and 1442 died in relation to combat, to see

:34:49.:34:52.

honourable Member field the MoD needs to have greater awareness on

:34:53.:34:55.

the duty of care in future operations were soldiers are putting

:34:56.:34:58.

more in compromising situations to offer assistance, whether legally

:34:59.:35:06.

emotionally or physically. Can I thank the intervention, I think my

:35:07.:35:09.

subsequent remarks will make it quite clear that I do agree. Can I

:35:10.:35:17.

now just quote from the British Army website. It states all wounded

:35:18.:35:24.

injured and six soldiers will be assigned a personnel recovery

:35:25.:35:30.

officer, PRI, either from their unit all through the personnel recovery

:35:31.:35:36.

unit for more serious injuries. The role is to assist the soldier in the

:35:37.:35:41.

recovery by coordinating all of the support needed from agencies such as

:35:42.:35:47.

the Ministry of Defence, Army primary health care services,

:35:48.:35:51.

service personnel veterans cup, housing contacts and specialist

:35:52.:35:58.

charities. The PR oh will visit the soldier if they are on recovery duty

:35:59.:36:03.

at home or arrange an appointment with them at the personal recovery

:36:04.:36:08.

unit at regular intervals to monitor their progress and update individual

:36:09.:36:14.

recovery plan as well as the records on the wounded injured and sick

:36:15.:36:20.

management information system. The frequency of visits will depend on

:36:21.:36:26.

the needs of the individual but at a minimum, soldiers will be visited

:36:27.:36:29.

once every 14 days with their recovery plan and needs access every

:36:30.:36:37.

28 days. Surely, after a couple of months of treatment, it should have

:36:38.:36:43.

been obvious that his injuries required the assignment of personal

:36:44.:36:48.

recovery officer, this did not happen. On October the 27th 2010, he

:36:49.:36:58.

was sent home on sick leave for the next five months. He was in his own

:36:59.:37:08.

words sofa surfing with his mum or partner's family or at their homes

:37:09.:37:12.

in other relatives in the Black Country. During this time he had

:37:13.:37:18.

great difficulty accessing information about his future

:37:19.:37:23.

treatment. Some of his telephone calls to his unit in Northern

:37:24.:37:27.

Ireland went unanswered. When he did get through, he was told that he

:37:28.:37:33.

would be informed in due course and after three months he was contacted

:37:34.:37:36.

to return to Northern Ireland for 24 hours because his sick at home

:37:37.:37:41.

grading was due to expire and he was then returned home. When he

:37:42.:37:47.

eventually did obtain an appointment at the defence medical

:37:48.:37:51.

rehabilitation centre at Headley Court in Surrey for February the

:37:52.:37:58.

4th, 2011, he did not actually receive correspondence and therefore

:37:59.:38:03.

missed it. He eventually had a revised appointment on February the

:38:04.:38:13.

25th. So from October 27, 2010 - February the 25th 2011, he was at

:38:14.:38:16.

his home waiting for this appointment. I believe its raises a

:38:17.:38:25.

significant issue. Lee Bagley had complex injuries which were not

:38:26.:38:30.

obviously responders filly responding to treatment. Why was he

:38:31.:38:33.

sent home without access to specialist support for this length

:38:34.:38:38.

of time? Every day in the NHS we hear tales of people unable to leave

:38:39.:38:43.

hospital because of an adequate care, but here we have an example of

:38:44.:38:47.

a soldier who was sent home without fixed abode and with no access to

:38:48.:38:52.

specialist support which is condition warranted. It appears to

:38:53.:38:58.

be a complete contravention of the advice given in the army general

:38:59.:39:09.

administrative, chapter three, commanding care of wounded and sick

:39:10.:39:14.

personnel. Section 99, 1118. The quote. Soldier at home all resident

:39:15.:39:22.

at address, the first recovery visit must be completed by the end of day

:39:23.:39:27.

seven. No more than 14 days may elapse between subsequent visits.

:39:28.:39:32.

Again this clearly did not take place. And again on the Army

:39:33.:39:39.

website, it is outlined that in these we done to soldiers with

:39:40.:39:43.

long-term injuries and I quote. Soldiers who are likely to need more

:39:44.:39:49.

than 56 days to recover will be graded as temporarily non-affected,

:39:50.:39:58.

TNT. At this point units can apply for the soldier to be transferred to

:39:59.:40:03.

a recovery unit were soldiers can receive dedicated recovery support

:40:04.:40:06.

rather than remaining in their home unit strength. Surely he should have

:40:07.:40:13.

been classed as tea an E by October the 27th. And an application should

:40:14.:40:21.

have been made to be approved. This did not actually happen until the

:40:22.:40:26.

following year until November the 14th 2011 when he was assigned to

:40:27.:40:32.

the proved at 143 a brigade in Telford. Lee Bagley eventually had

:40:33.:40:42.

his amputation nearly a year later on the 28th of September, he

:40:43.:40:48.

subsequently had one month at Ewood house and then another further

:40:49.:40:51.

admission at Headley Court. He was discharged from the Army in 2014

:40:52.:40:57.

after a year of complex trauma admissions prosthetic care. I must

:40:58.:41:05.

make it quite clear that his criticisms of his treatment do not

:41:06.:41:10.

extend to the period post-November the 14th when he was allocated to

:41:11.:41:15.

the Pru and his subsequent discharge. He has nothing but praise

:41:16.:41:22.

for the exercise of the duty of care which she received once he had been

:41:23.:41:27.

admitted on the state. However he does feel, for six months he was a

:41:28.:41:38.

forgotten man. This is someone who was injured who was coming to the

:41:39.:41:45.

rescue of a comrade who was assaulted. If it happened in

:41:46.:41:49.

theatre, he would have been praised and possibly had a formal

:41:50.:41:57.

commendation. He went back to his barracks and received no attention

:41:58.:42:03.

at all and obviously needed to go to hospital. Subsequently it took

:42:04.:42:09.

nearly a year both in hospital and at home on sick leave before he was

:42:10.:42:15.

admitted to Headley Court. And then another six months before their

:42:16.:42:22.

personal recovery unit. It seems unbelievable that there was such a

:42:23.:42:30.

delay for injuries that were serious enough to justify amputation.

:42:31.:42:37.

Whether the delays and admission contributed to the amputation is a

:42:38.:42:43.

matter of clinical judgment. But even if it did not, any soldier

:42:44.:42:51.

going through this experience is entitled to believe that the Army

:42:52.:42:58.

exercise its GEC of care with the utmost professionalism and diligent

:42:59.:43:03.

and that everything possible was done to Provost of other loss of his

:43:04.:43:11.

limb. Lee Bagley's experience from October the 27th 2010- November 14,

:43:12.:43:18.

2011 has left him with severe doubts that this is so. He is entitled to

:43:19.:43:27.

know why was he not appointed a personal recovery officer earlier in

:43:28.:43:34.

his treatment. Why was he sent home without any support. Why did he find

:43:35.:43:39.

it so difficult to obtain information money was a time? Why do

:43:40.:43:43.

not receive dedicated personnel support he was entitled to receive?

:43:44.:43:49.

And why did it take so long for the duty of care to be transferred to

:43:50.:43:56.

the proved. Lee Bagley deserves to be answered. I I'm sure that

:43:57.:44:01.

everybody recognises that our young people who joined the armed services

:44:02.:44:04.

expose themselves to dangerous in order to protect us, deserve and

:44:05.:44:11.

have the right to expect the right possible medical care whether in

:44:12.:44:18.

theatre or in other circumstances. Every soldier injured, whether in

:44:19.:44:22.

battle or another should be able to have confidence that the medical

:44:23.:44:29.

response will be exercise with the utmost professionalism and diligent

:44:30.:44:31.

and that everything possible would be done. That is why I have secured

:44:32.:44:38.

the debate.

:44:39.:44:39.