25/01/2017 House of Commons

Why to all the false start -- Point of order. I think we should build a

sense of anticipation so I will take the point of order from the oral

lady. Thank you, on Friday, just 58 minutes before the house rose when

the organisation was being watched across the pond. -- in operation.

The TWDC al on the DL with regards to child policy. Never a number of

concessions, not nearly enough. -- not nearly enough. DWP. Do give

families convert. I seek clarification from the leader DWP of

if there was any intention of informing the palace at this matter

or should we should be left to conclude that this news would be

caught up in the avalanche of appalling policies emanating from

the White house. The usual answer is no however I generally wish to thank

the honourable lady from giving me notice of her point of order. I am

aware, as other members will be, that she has a long-standing

interest in this sensitive if you. That said, I must tell the

honourable lady that I have received no notice from ministers of any

intention to make a statement in the house on this subject. That is a

judgment call them rather than for me. I'm sure her words will have

been heard on the Treasury bench, not weak by a senior weight upon who

I trust we can rely to and they sentiments to those who should head

on. -- whip. We believe that an, having built up anticipation. C Ian

Paisley. Control of Smoke Pollution Act let us hair. Thank you for

preserving meat. The Leader of the Opposition said a police officer was

shot dead at the weekend in Belfast. It was corrected by the member for

north Belfast, that is not thankfully the case, thank God, but

for the family and for police officers generally, can we have

corrected by the front bench spokesman as urgently as possible so

the racket of this hostile not contain the delirious fact that a

police officer was murdered in Belfast. I am grateful, and I

benefit from advise in these matters. They advice I have just

received, there is my responsibility of whether I accept it or not, is

advise I accept that there is no need for any further correction. It

was an error all. I recognise what the gentleman said about how

upsetting that will be, but it was a mistake. It has subsequently been

corrected and the honourable gentleman has now, quite properly,

use the opportunity of a point of order to correct it. I didn't think

anything further needs to be said. The honourable gentleman is a wily

character and he has found his salvation. Point of order, Mr Bob

Blackman. You will be aware that members from across the house have

the opportunity to sign a book of commitment for Holocaust Memorial

Day. I am pleased to say that more than 200 honourable and right

honourable members have signed the book but that does mean more than

400 have-nots. Who I come through your good offices, drawn to the

attention of the house that the book is available at the bottom of the

member staircase between GBM and 40 PM. At is a very helpful notice. No

disrespect to the honourable gentleman because it is very helpful

for honours, but it had already been planned by my office that I would

sign the great Glen I leave the chair Tuesday, and I certainly

shall, as I always do. But I think it would be a wonderful thing if all

colleagues would take the opportunity to sign the book as the

honourable gentleman helpfully suggests. -- today. If there are no

further points of order, we come to the ten minute rule motion. Ron

Blenkinsop. -- Tom. I want to bring proposals for onshore power stations

50 megawatts or less to adhere to the terms of the engineering

industry and requiring circumstances to connect purposes. Our clients

which produce this e-mail what's below are not subject to the terms

of national planning consent. Instead, plans including those which

produce energy from waste are regulated by the plan and talent

governing act 1990. This was supposed to give power to local

people for development in their locality but it has created

loopholes and uncover scrupulous employers seeking to exploit

construction workers working on these plants. This is because the

terms and conditions have not been adhered to for allegations of 50

megawatts or less. I brought this in 2015, but my friend Max from several

areas and unions know this problem still exists today, even though they

agreed with me last time and do still. Some of these validations are

using deliberately confusing contracts to employ workers on bogus

self-employment terms. Exploiting migrant workers so that rather than

paying local workers the national industry agreement rate of six and

97 per la depending on the accompanying sea level involved. --

up to ?6 90 seven per la. -- hour. One of these is a Croatian company,

the model is simple, bid for construction, subcontracts from

companies that refuse to work in the national agreements terms and then

undercut local wages by bringing out their work force workers from

Croatia to work operation and wage levels. The same thing was put in

place by GMB and Unite when constructing a power station in

Yorkshire. As that fell under, the Croatian company was due to pay

every penny back to its employees. The employees returned to

integration. That is exploitation plain simple and demonstrate the

disregard this firm hold for all its employees. Unfortunately, this very

firm seeks further employment from a Danish firm and GMB and Unite have

tried to tackle this. Particularly in size and in Yorkshire, Wales and

Scotland. National is from GMB and Unite have travelled from Denmark

and Croatia to inform the appropriate trade unions. Despite

their hard work, any real solution to this must come from this house.

The exploitation of migrant employees and undercutting British

workers has only happened because of the unintended loophole in

legislation, namely that trade union negotiating these standards do not

need to be complied with in power stations producing less than 50

megawatts. This needs to be written into companies of any size on

British soil and that's the only way to prevent this undercutting and

allow workers of all nationalities to bargain collectively to improve

their pay and conditions. In vivo to leave the European Union, members

from across this house have attempted to address concerns about

immigration. As a nation, we need to address these concerns and take

action on loopholes like this one, allowing companies to bring in

migrant workers on a temporary basis, exploiting them and

undercutting the wages of brick British workers. Instead, where they

are able to get work on such sites, namely under confusing contract

pricing them are self-employed, making them pay twice as many

national insurance contributions to benefit employers. In this case and

others, I was leaving the European Union presents both a threat, losing

the well intentioned protection against new practices, and an

opportunity namely to strengthen those protections to ensure not only

are minimum standards are complied with by the industry-standard, too.

We do not need to wait until you have left the EU to do so, we can

act now, put a stop to doubt the manipulation of migrant workers and

undermining of employment standards in the UK. This is an issue which

can and should be addressed to maintain integrity of agreements. I

raise this with no apology for presenting the bell. The question is

that the honourable member B to bring in the bell. As many as are of

the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". -- bring in the

bill. The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We will prepare and bring

in the Bill? Said Kevin Barron, Sarah Champion, John Healey, Andy

McDonald, Alan Cunningham, Iain Wright and myself.

One Blenkinsop. -- GMB and Unite. -- Tom.

Town and country planning electricity consent bill. Second

reading, what they? Friday 24th of March. Friday 24 of March. We now

come to the opposition day motion on prisons in the name of the Leader of

the Opposition. To move the motion, I call Mr Richard Berger. Thank you.

The last time there was an opposition day debate on prisons, it

was nary one year ago to the very day. Back then, as honourable

members will recall, my honourable friend from Hammersmith opened the

debate for the opposition. He told the house that the inescapable

conclusion is that the prison system in this country is not working,

contrary to the famous announcement of the level nor talent. Well, one

year on -- noble lord Hallett. This remains inescapable. -- Howard. Just

the secretaries have cut front line prison officers by over 6000. It was

the political decision to impose austerity on the nation and on our

prison services that brought ours to this point. Married with an erratic

prisons policy veering further in this way and then that way. First,

the Right Honourable and alternate member from Rushcliffe wanted to

reduce prison numbers. -- GMB and Unite. He was fact. Then the member

for Epsom and Ewell to gain very authoritarian line, introducing

benchmarking. -- learned. As well as a book banning. Those of which

failed. Next, the honourable member forcibly Heath wanted to

decentralise and hand... And the current Justice Secretary wants a

little bit of policy from each, prison policy la carte. The number

of prisoners officers were cut with no check on the number of people

being imprisoned. The effect of this ought to have been obvious.

Imprisoning more people and deciding they can afford. In the 12 months to

June 2016, there were 105 self-inflicted deaths. Nearly double

the number five years previously. An all-time high. I will give way.

Might I draw his attention to the select committee report which

advocated that to try and cut the cycle of prisoners reoffending, it

would be good to try and provide employment for them, particularly by

reducing national insurance contributions to employers. While it

is not a silver bullet, it would play some part in reducing pressure

on prisons if such a policy was adopted. I want to thank my

honourable friend for his intervention and that is a very

valuable points he makes with rehabilitation, a subject I will

turn. I will give way to the Right Honourable and learned gentleman. He

is quite right in that he set out to acknowledge the serious crisis in

the prisons which are overcrowded, slums and weeding grounds for crime.

He set out the interesting range of options for tackling it, but his

motion nearly concentrates on the prison officers Association answer

which is to spend more money and hire more prison officers, probably

improving their pay and conditions. Does he have any views on the range

of options which include reducing the number of prisoners by

addressing foolish policies so you got room for the rehabilitation

policies that the honourable member for Birkenhead has just recommended?

I thank my honourable friend for that constructive contribution.

There is far more than just talking about the issue of staffing and the

issue of sentencing and numbers will be touched upon later in my speech,

if I can make some progress. I will give way to my honourable friend.

They thank you for giving way. There are too many people in our prisons

mental health conditions or should not be there. Dean Saunders, one of

113 people, took his own life in one of our prisons as last year. The

outcome of the inquest that he should never have been there in the

first place. I share my right honourable friend

was my concern is that she raised injustice questions. I will deal

with that later in my comments. When the number of offices were caught

with no check on the numbers of people being imprisoned it should've

been obvious. They are in prison more people. There were three and 45

deaths in custody last year, in the same period serious assault on

people increased by 146% and instances of self harm increased by

more than 10,000. Within the spends of just the few weeks they were

prison dryers, prison riots in Lincoln, in Lewis Campbell in

Bedford and in moorland. In December, HMP Birmingham saw what

many described as the worst riots at the category B prison since strange

ways of quarter of this century ago. I will give way. I thank the

honourable gentleman. A lot of this criticism is predicated on the

concept of austerity under this government but surely he will

concede that under the last Labour government in much more benign

economic circumstances, his party under the end of custody licence

scheme release dated 2000 prisoners. Over 1200 were caught reoffending.

It was still mismanagement of the prison estate.

The prison system has never been perfect but what I will say is under

a Labour government there was not April is in crisis. Under this

Conservative government that is in prison crisis and I must make some

progress. I have been generous with my interventions. The members want

to speak in this debate. In relation to Birmingham come it took 13

Tornado teams over 12 hours to regain control. Some put the

estimates of the damage at ?2 million. The ministry was warned

back in October that urgent action was required in relation to staff

worries about their personal safety. It remains unclear whether the

ministry did anything at all. Last October, in an unprecedented

intervention... I will give way. On that points come easy as wooded

as I am that not only have we seen each huge reduction in the numbers

of dozen officers but that is deliberate strategy to get the more

experienced, more expensive prison officers to stand down, to retire to

replace them with cheap apprentices, graduates coming in. That is the

real lack of experience in our prison sector as well as the

dangerous lack of numbers. My honourable friend makes the vital

point. We have got eight dangerous cocktail of experienced prisoners in

prison and experienced prison officers leaving prison. That is not

good for safety and that is not good for the service. I really must make

some progress I am afraid. In wake of these riots the Justice Secretary

Toby has yesterday that more tornado staff are being trained. She expects

more trouble and things to get worse before they get better. The list of

problems the ministry has to content with his long. Overcrowding,

understaffing, lack of safety, the quality of delivery from privatised

probation services, drugs, and drones. In nearly 4000 IAPP

prisoners who are still in jail way past their tireless. One prisoner

officer told me the situation in our prison service is like eight game of

Django. It feels we are on the brink of the final piece been removed and

the whole thing coming crashing down around us. He did not say that

likely. We have government the 's's White Paper which has a mixed

reception from those with experience and expertise in the penal system

and penal reform. I need to make some progress. Nearly all of these

problems stem from the acting of eight quarters of prison staff since

2010. The Justice Secretary's colleague, the honourable member for

Gainsborough, as the Justice Secretary yesterday if she thought

this cult was wise. The Justice Secretary did not answer, she has

the opportunity to answer today. I will give way. I stand by that, we

all want more prison officers. Camden future Labour government

recruit all these prison officers? The future Labour government will

not treat our hard-working, hard-pressed prison officers as the

enemy. I hear the drawers of disapproval from the government

benches, anybody would think they were presiding over the successful

prison service. Anyone would think there was it prison crisis. The

government benches would listen rather than draw at me and I would

be grateful. I need to make some progress, I am afraid. The ambition

set out in the White Paper to increase staffing levels is welcome.

But 2500 officers represents less than half of the number of prison

officers cut by conservative Justice Secretary 's since 2010. To get 2500

extra officers come 8000 officers will have to be recruited in two

years. I wonder if the Justice Secretary has confidence that will

happen. I, Mr Speaker, do not come across many in the justice sector

who think it more than eight pipe dream under her management. In the

year September 2016, the Secretary of State had 400 fewer officers. It

is the crisis in staff retention. They are leaving more quickly than

the Secretary of State can recruit them. The prison officers

Association membership has rejected eight pay deal offered by the

government. What plans has the Secretary of State made to improve

the offer and begin to make these jobs more attractive to the public?

At present she faces in recruitment drive which is in danger of having

failed before it has begun. Announcements, for example, the

ex-servicemen personnel might grab quick headlines but in truth it is

nothing new. They have always been former members of our armed services

taking jobs in our prison service. The role of soldier and the Royal of

prison officer aren't exactly the same, by the way. Prison officers

who have been in the Army have told me that with the six issue of state

must explain how she can converse is for the fact so many experienced

officers have life and are leaving our prison service. Overseeing its

transformation to the prison estate populated by more experienced

prisoners and more inexperienced prison officers present eight clear

and present danger. Inadequate staffing levels have the range of

consequences. Prisons are less safe. Staff are far less outnumbered.

Prisoners spent more time in their cells since they cannot be managed

outside. Prisoner frustration is further heightened by lack of time

out of their cells. I will give way. I am most grateful

and commend him on his excellent speech. Dirty agree with me that one

way we can reduce the present population is if the government make

better progress in the transfer of foreign national offenders. At the

moment there are 10,000 foreign national offenders in our prisons

representing 12% of the population. They signed agreements but very few

prisoners get sent back. I thank my honourable friend for

making that important point. Injustice questions yesterday, the

secretary said he was in discussions with the Brexit department about

that and we do need to hear more about the progress of those

discussions. The Justice Secretary frequently buys to the emergence of

new psychoactive substances as factor in the current crisis. Does

she know that in Scotland where prison policy has been stable for

some years, where staffing has remained constant, there hasn't been

the rocketing of Ireland, the House has been seen across the rest of our

prison estate. They have NPS issues but they David axe staff. Our

prisons are overcrowded. Prison in my city of Leeds holds twice the

number of prisoners that is built to House. Wandsworth, Swansea, Brixton

and Leicester are not far behind. All full to capacity with another

50% on top. We need, this'll be the final time I will way...

He knows I hold him in high esteem. Lady checker Baty said the shadow

Attorney General, she wanted half half the prisoners to be released

immediately. Is that Labour's policy?

I am not aware of any such policy announcement being made and it is

not Labour policy committee not Labour policy. Some strange is the

collation is going on from members of the opposite benches. It is not

Labour policy to release half of the prisoners. Why in earth would that

be the case? But we do need lasting way in which to manage the prison

population. Last November the Lord Chief Justice, Lord Thomas, appeared

before the justice committee. Not surprisingly, he was questioned on

the prisons crisis. Lord Thomas offered their view on what could be

done. He said the prison population is very, very high at the moment.

Whether it will continue to raise is difficult to tell but that I will

use it well. I am not sure at the end of the day we can't dispose of

more buyers really tough, and they mean tough, community penalties.

Prison has always been seen as aid punishment. Person brings that

breaks asocial contract and can be imprisoned. Members across this

House by see this as befitting sanction. It must be right that

where it convicted person is danger to the public, they are kept away

from the public until such time they no longer pose threat. The

significant minority may never be safe to release. But for some of

those who offend, we must ask if prison is the right place for them

to be sent. We should ensure we always reflect upon this because if

we do not, we find ourselves in the position of the government does now.

The warehousing of thousands of people without any support or real

access to rehabilitation so when they leave prison as they inevitably

will... I will not give way. They are in the same position they were

when they entered. They might still be drug dependence, they might be

homeless, they might still be in poverty. It is right in fact, Mr

Speaker, it is our duty not to be complacent but deflect and ask

ourselves if how we deal with at least some of those who break the

law working with many offenders it isn't. The stay in present and it is

too short for them to learn new skills or to seek qualification, or

to stabilise it drug addiction. In recent weeks, I met stakeholders who

questioned whether it is worth sending prison that people to prison

for a few weeks and officers lament seeing the same people over and over

again. It is right, Mr Speaker, when stakeholders, people at the front

line and expert raises matters that we take them seriously. We must

punish and we must deliver smart sentences as well as strict

sentences. Always asking ourselves what is the most effective way of

protecting the public. I firmly believe, Mr Speaker, this is an

urgent discussion which MPs need to have.

Because the amount of questions being shouted out from the

opposition makes me wonder is they know what they are providing over.

The risks were sending people to prison, particularly for the first

time. There's a lass from the Government front bench. The

situation in our prisons is not a laughing matter. -- there are

laughs. We should take this seriously. We throw people into the

prison river and the currents sweep them towards a more drugs and crime

than they experienced outside. If we had alleged -- if annotation fails,

that is partly to blame. What is the Justice Secretary doing about IPP,

imprisonment for public protection services? She needs a scheme to

release those who it is safe to release. She shouldn't consider how

that is done, perhaps releasing them on a licence period in proportion to

their original sentence. In November last year, my honourable friend, the

member for Parton, publish the interim findings of his review into

the treatment and outcomes for black, Asian and minority ethnic

people in the criminal justice system. It's stark findings also

have implications for our prisons. It found that for every 100 white

women handed gusto deal sentences in the Crown Court for drug offences,

227 black women were sentenced to custody. For black men, the figures

are one for London burned to 100 white men. These figures ought to be

-- 141 in comparison to 100. These findings are travelling in and of

themselves but the fact that this is happening disproportionately also

adds to the strain on our prison system. These subject of

rehabilitation, it is essential to any serious criminal justice system.

We are not yet getting it right. The fact is that most people in Britain

will one day leave prison and third, if we are to protect the public and

keep our unity is that most people in Britain will one day leave prison

and third, if we are to protect the public and keep charging energy

saved, rehabilitation has to be properly funded and taken seriously

by politicians as an aim. It must not be treated as though it's a soft

option. Between January and December 2014, 45% of adults released from

prison had reoffended within year. There is released from a sentence of

less than 12 months, 60% reoffended. At the time, the honourable member

threaten and Newell introduced transforming rehabilitation, the

probation service was reckoned to be performing well. Many stakeholders

issued a warning, against the break-up of the service. As with

many MLJ consultations at the time, the public was ignored. The

proposals will boost through regardless. Companies received

negative reports last year in Derbyshire, Durham and London. The

Inspectorate... I will on the very final occasion. I want to thank my

honourable friend for giving way and he's making a really powerful case.

Does he agree with me that the Government change particularly to

probation services, Durham used to have the best in the country, they

did an amazing job in trying to rehabilitate prisoners but that has

a lass fallen by the wayside because of Government reforms. -- alas. It

would be nice to see opposite members take some responsibility for

our probation system because it is a disgrace that it's failing anyway it

is. I thank my honourable friend for her comments and it's a travesty

what has happened to probation services in the area and region that

my honourable friend represents. The privatisation has been a disaster.

The Inspectorate probation dribble of May 20 16th and that these... I

will give way. I promise, the final occasion, I give way. I'm grateful

to the honourable gentleman for what he considers being weaknesses and

then drawing attention to them. He hasn't come forward with a single

positive alternative. Any moment remain to him, well they enlighten

you as as to what Labour do other than simply complain. I certainly

will do. Just bear with me. The work of the national predation service

was considered better in a number of important areas. As I said,

privatisation has failed. But it's not just down to the ministry and

jubilation to support people will stop if people are leaving prison

faced with the same conditions as the four they entered it, this will

make any meaningful change difficult. Support is needed. Needed

for employment, for housing. One women's prison had inmates leaving

with nowhere to live and was hanging out tents and sleeping bags to

people when they left. This can't be, can it, a feature of a proper,

more than just the system in the fifth richest country in the world?

The prison education trust was welcoming the white pepper whilst

welcoming the white paper said that we need more than the ability to

read and write. If the Government is serious about cutting down

reoffending... He shouldn't shout out from a sedentary position. He

should shout while standing up. If you forgive me for saying, shouting

while standing right next to these the Seager's chair is perhaps not

quite the most intelligent action he has undertaken in the course of, so

far, gamers auspicious career. Thank you. I didn't take offence when the

Government Whip was shouting out, are there any policies? Because I

didn't think it was directed at this side of the palace. We are faced

with a range of problems, there is who are vulnerable, disabled,

homeless, addicted to drugs. Focusing on issues of that kind is

essential because they have been victims of austerity. Prisoners are

leaving prison with nowhere to sleep. Too many people are in prison

with serious mental health problems. MPs rarely break promises, I promise

not to take any more interventions. I will break it and allow this one.

Thank you for eventually giving way. I'm most honoured. Any opposition

motion, they mentioned Lewes prison, it is in special measures, as

mentioned yesterday. What he felt to acknowledge is the huge amount of

work going in. Not just in a prison officer numbers but other issues,

such as the huge rise in sexual offenders, making it hard to manage.

I don't share any suggestions as to enable it to help places like Lewes.

Tackle the problems. The number of prisoners convicted of historic sex

offences increasing has an effect what I would say this, does cutting

the number of prison officers by one quarter mitigate this or does it

make it worse? It seems to me that the answer to that is quite simple.

Before I brought my remarks to conclusion, I really want to turn to

my... I wanted... The present Minister has an unfortunate habit of

tackling and really inappropriate points, demonstrating it before and

now, because I want to talk about the case of Dean Saunders, who

tragically deluded suicide in Chelmsford prison. An inquest jury

found another errors in his treatment. -- committed suicide.

There were recognised health problems but a procedure was not

followed to move him to hospital. He was said to be seeking the details

of all those cases to see if there was a pattern. The charity, inquest,

whose aborted the case said he should never have been in prison in

the first place because his death was preventable. -- and his death

was preventable. The independent monitoring board report jury

findings. What needs to happen is that the ministry must ensure that

recommendations of such bodies are acted upon. In conclusion, we need

to be tough on crime wherever it is found and we need to protect the

public. At the same time, we need to make prisons places were effective

rehabilitation is a living, breathing reality. We want people to

leave prison and become productive members of society, having left

crying behind. At present, when it comes to the prison service, as in

relation to so much else, this Government is failing. It's failing

prison at, prison inmates and their families, the public. Ultimately,

the mess this Government is making of our prison system means it is

failing society. I commend this notion to the house. All other. The

question is as on the order paper. I can inform the house I have selected

the amendment in the name of the Prime Minister to move that

amendment I call the Lord Chancellor and Secretary of State for Justice.

Secretary Liz Frost. Truss. Since I have become Justice Secretary, I

have been very clear that the of violence in our prisons is too high.

We have very worrying levels of self harm and deaths in custody.

Tomorrow, we will see further statistics on violence from the

period July to September 20 16. The last set of statistics we saw

reaffirmed why we need to take immediate action. I have been clear

that these problems have been years in the making and will not be fixed

in weeks or months. The honourable gentleman in a piece he wrote this

morning acknowledged there are no magic fix to the issues and they

certainly haven't heard any magic fixes from him today in his speech.

I well. There may be no magic fixes but would she agree with the

honourable member opposite that the Government pasty ban substances at

the request of prison officers and increase the number of prison

officers that the honourable lady has outlined. I completely agree

with my honourable friend and I'm absolutely determined that they do

turn this situation in our prisons around. Unless prisons are places of

safety, they cannot be places where offenders can read one. That is why

they are taking immediate action, as my honourable friend said, to

stabilise security in our prisons, tackle the scourge of drugs, drones

and found and it's why we have secure additional funding annually

to recruit an extra 2500 prison officers to strengthen our front

line and invest in the wider just as reforming. -- phones. I will give

way. I'm grateful to her for giving way and is good news that there is

additional money for prison officers coming into the service but she is

right to say that the scale of violence in our prisons is variable.

The reduction, and she must take responsibility, the Government last

big responsibility, for the amount you are -- the amount of prison

officers we currently have. I thank the honourable gentleman for his

point. I have been Claire, we do need extra staff on the front line.

There have been a number of issues that have resulted with what we face

now. -- clear. The result of psychoactive substances, drones and

thousands. We do monitor the number of sickness in our visions to

address that issue. -- phones. I thank my honourable friend. Which

they agree with me that, in a 30 minute speech, the only concrete

analysis given by the spokesman is that there is a monster will link

between a staffing and violence? Mess has been contravened by the

evidence given to the selling committee by Doctor David Scott at

the open University who rejected that link and that there are other,

much more complex, societal matters in the prison population and estate.

I thank my honourable friend. There are a number of factors,

psychoactive drugs is one of them. We do need the proper level of

staffing, which we are putting into prisons to make sure prison officers

are able to supervise and challenge offenders properly. That is

important. It is important, not just for safety, but to reform offenders.

I will make a bit of progress and then I will give way to the

honourable gentleman. The prison safety and reform White Paper was

published last November and its detailed the biggest overhaul of our

prisons in a generation to deal with these issues. It is absolutely right

that Britons punished people who commit serious crimes by depriving

them of their most fundamental liberty but they need to be at

places of discipline, hard work and self improvement. It is the only way

we will cut real ending and reduce crime in our DVDs. I give way. --

communities. Just on the starting point, and I'm

trying to be helpful to her in this. Her own bench indicates 89 of the

prisons are currently under the staffing level for their own

Ministry of Justice target. Could she tell me how many of those

prisons are still going to be, under her own benchmarking staffing

levels? I will address the specific issue of

how we will recruit those additional staff later my comments. All of

those prisons will not just only be brought up to the benchmark level,

we are increasing staffing levels beyond that benchmark level. We have

to recruit and then additional staff, that's part of our plan to

recruit 4000 officers this year. I will give way to my honourable

friend and then make more progress with my speech.

HMP Lewes has mentioned in the motion by the opposition today, and

yet I've not heard the Secretary of State has visited the prison and

dismisses the effect of having high numbers of sexual offenders in the

prison. That does affect retention of prison staff and to dismiss it

out of hand shows a lack of experience and knowledge of what is

happening in our prisons. My honourable friend is absolutely

right. I'm going to come onto the issue of the prison population later

in my speech, and specifically address the issue sex offenders.

Very quickly. I must say I rather assumed you

would give way. Sir Simon Burns. May I ask, given how welcome it is,

the extra prison officers that she is proposing to recruit, as a

short-term stopgap, I understand it takes about nine months to fully

train a new prison officer. Would it be sensible to relax or give more

powers to governors so that they could bring back into work retired,

experienced prison officers on short-term contracts.

My honourable friend is absolutely right in that assessment and we are

indeed doing that. We're bringing back from prison officers on a

temporary basis. I'm now going to move on to what

we're doing on recruitment and retention because that is the most

important issue we face, as a prison service. We will not achieve our

aims of reform if we don't have enough officers, and also if we

don't train the officers, have proper career devilment, to make

sure we make the most of our workforce. -- career development. In

October we announced our plans to recruit an extra 4000 staff in ten

of our most challenging prisons. I'm pleased to say we have made 389 job

offers by the end of March, head of target on that front. We have

recently launched a graduate scheme, called Unblocked, to attract the

top, talented graduates. We had over 1000 expressions of interest in this

scheme and within 24 hours we had 350 graduates from Russell group

universities applying to the scheme. So this idea people don't want to do

the job I think isn't right. I think there are a lot of people out there

who want to reform offenders and get involved in helping us turning

around our prison service. I think we need to talk up the job of being

a prison officer, because it is incredibly important. One prison

officer described themselves to me as a parent, a social worker, a

teacher, and what could be more important from turning somebody from

a life of crime to someone who will contribute to society? What we're

finding is when we go out and recruit, a lot of people are

interested in this role. Of course we have do retain a fantastic prison

officers. I want to quit the honourable gentleman. 80% of our

staff have been with us longer than five years. So the idea we don't

have a strong depth of prison officers is wrong. We need to make

sure they have the career opportunities and the promotion

opportunities, that's why we're looking at expanding senior grades

in the service, why were looking at promoting our existing staff, but

also giving them a career ladder, so they have opportunities to train on

the job and get those additional skills they need.

We are also giving prison officer governors the right to recruit

locally. What that means is the governor can build much more of a

relationship with the local community, get people involved, show

people what life is really like inside prison and encourage people

to work there. These local recruitment job fairs have been

really successful. Of course this is challenging. Recruiting 4000 people

in one year is challenging. But I think we could do it and we have

that opportunity, we are enthusiastic about it, we have the

budget to do it for the first time in a number of years, I will give

way to the honourable gentleman. That is absolutely right on one of

the things that has been very much welcomed in Bedford is the

opportunity for the governor to do more proactive recruiting. Does she

find it interesting that in her amendment she talks about

decentralising authority to prison governors, something completely

missed by the Labour Party? I completely agree with my honourable

friend, because we do need to give prison governors the power over what

happens in that own prison, deciding the regimes they operate, deciding

the staffing structures, motivating and recruiting their own team. But

also being able to have more say over how lives are turned around.

One example is giving them the power over their education providers.

We're going to prison governors to account, in terms of how people are

improving in English and maths, how successful they are getting

offenders off drugs, which we know can help lead to rehabilitation, how

successful they are in getting offenders into work when they leave

prison, so there are encouraged to work with local employers and setup

apprenticeships. We need to give them the levers to do that, we need

to give them the responsibility. We are also working on leadership

training, so they have to skills and capabilities to take on those extra

responsibilities. It is the only way we are going to turn lives around,

because the fact is, whatever I do in Ministry of Justice and whatever

my civil servants do, they are not the people on the ground in the

wings, talking to prisoners Day in and day out. It's those people are

going to turn rides around. That's why we need motivated staff, we need

governors who are empowered to do that job and that is what our

reforms will achieve. -- turn lives around.

I think the whole house would actually sympathise her and support

her in the area specifically about the morale of prison officers. When

the gentleman from Aldershot and I were presidents prison officers

together at Dartmouth, prison officers that they were out of sight

and out of mind. We felt no one had interest in their weapons and it

went catastrophically wrong. -- -- in them. With the right honourable

lady agree we should show them they are not out of sight and out of mind

and we do care? Perhaps the scheme to bring back

former prison officers into service. He might be part of that. He could

be a shining beacon, he could be a shining beacon.

I am so reluctant to disabuse the honourable lady and to disappoint

her, however the honourable member of Aldershot and I were only

temporarily in Aldershot for a television documentary called At The

Sharp End. In any case we are setting up a

Parliamentary scheme, specifically to work more closely with prison

officers and give them the kudos that they deserve, because they do

an incredibly important job, often behind walls. What I want to see

with the reform programme is more reaching out into the local

community, working with local employers, because as the opposition

spokesman said, ultimately the vast majority of people in prison one day

going to be on the outside, they are going to be part of the local

community and we need to on that. But whilst we are putting in place

our long-term, long and medium-term measures to get the additional staff

in to reform our prisons, we are also taking immediate action to

improve security and stability across the estate, which includes

extra CCTV, deployment of national resources and regular task force

chaired by the prison meeting officer. He holds regular meetings

which allows us to react quickly to emerging problems are provide

immediate support to governors on anything from transferring difficult

prisoners to speeding up the repair of damaged facilities. A number of

honourable friends have talked about the issue of psychoactive substance,

which has proved a game changer in the prison system as the prison and

probation ombudsman acknowledged. In September we rolled out new

mandatory drugs test the psychoactive drugs to all prisons

and have increased the number of search dogs and train them to find

legal highs. We are working with mobile phone operators to stop

illicit phones, which we are trialling in three prisons and we

have specific powers to block phones being used.

Would she give way? I'm very grateful. I'm disappointed she

hasn't mentioned the impact of automatic release halfway through

sentence on the behaviour of prisoners. Surely if someone isn't

prison for six years may know by law they will be released after three,

irrespective of how badly they fade in prison, surely that has had a

negative impact on the behaviour all levels in prison, that if they

didn't know if they were going to be released and maybe go the full term

unless they behave in prison, is the Secretary of State going to address

a particular issue? Clearly if people don't behave well

or misbehave they will receive additional days. That is an

important part of the lever that governors have, in terms of being

able to reform offenders. I was talking about security issues,

and we are also working to deal with drones and we are rolling out body

worn cameras across the estate. We've also got plans and we're

working on dealing with organised crime gangs, with a new national

intelligence unit. A number of honourable members have talked about

mental health. We are investing in specialist mental health training

for prison officers, to help reduce the worrying levels of self harm and

suicide in our prisons. In particular we know the early days in

custody artistically critical to mental health and keeping people

safe. -- in custody are particularly critical.

I am grateful to the Secretary of State for giving way. As she will

know, a lot of women in our prisons have severe mental health problems

and have also been subject to a lot of abuse in their lives. Can she say

why there is so little about women in the white paper and also what

she's doing, and what her department is doing to implement the

recommendations of the Corston report?

I thank the honourable lady for her question. We are working at the

moment on a strategy for winning offenders, that also deals with how

we look after women who are on community sentences, as well as

custodial sentences. What I want to see is more early intervention,

dealing with some of those issues that lead to people reoffending,

such as mental health than drugs issues. We are working on that at

the moment and we'll be announcing further plans on that in the summer.

We are in investing and additional 2500 staff across the prison estate,

but we also changing the way we deploy those staff. There is more

opportunity for prison officers to engage with offenders, to challenge

them and also support them, in terms of them reforming themselves. Very

briefly. Can I put to hurt the question I put

to the Shadow Lord Chancellor, the issue of foreign national offenders.

She will know that an easy way to reduce the number of people in our

prisons is to follow through on the excellent work done by her

distinguished predecessors, who are both in the House today, the members

for Rushcliffe and Surrey Heath, in signing these agreements to send

people back to their countries of origin. Why did she think progress

has been so slow? I thank the honourable gentleman for

his comments. I'm pleased to say a record number of foreign national

offenders were deported in the last year, so we are making progress, but

we recognise there is more work to do. My honourable friend the prisons

minister is leading across government task force on this issue.

Going back to the work of the 2500 new prison officers on the way we

are changing the role of prison officers, what we want to do by

recruiting these new staff is making sure that every prison officer has a

caseload of no more than six offenders who they can challenge and

support. That is the way we have built up our staffing model, making

sure we have sufficient prison officers to be able to do that.

Because the one-to-one to sport, dedicated officer is at the heart of

how we change our reoffending rates and how we keep our prisoners and

our prison officers say. The right honourable gentleman, the honourable

gentleman talked about the issue of the prison population, although we

are still none the wiser about what Labour's prison population policy

was after he If we look at the prison population,

it has been stable since 2010. We haven't had a rise in the prison

population. In fact it went up by 25,000 under Labour. What we're

seeing in the prison population, and this comes to the point my

honourable friend Reyes, if we are seeing fewer people in prison for

short sentences. We are 9000 fewer shorter sentences given out every

year but we are seeing a greater number of people in prison,

particularly for areas like sex offences, because we are prosecuting

more sexual offenders and we have also seen these sentences for sexual

offenders considerably increase, which I think is absolutely right,

reflecting the serious damage that those individuals have done to their

victims. Thank you. All that point, for

prisons looking after sex offenders it's much more difficult than the

average prison inmates because they have to be segregated and old

Victorian prisons do not do that easily. That adds pressure. I think

we are doing work specifically on how we deal with sex offenders

better and making sure they are on treatment programmes that. Then

committing those crimes in the future, which is very important.

I'll give way. The one item of policy which the Labour spokesman.

On in his speech was the future of the remaining IPP prisoners. There

are 4000 of them still in prison years after the sentence was

abolished, most of them now beyond their recommended term. Some are

dangerous and can't be released but is she addressing the problem of how

she can make it easier for the parole board to address these

questions, reducing delays, alter the burden of proof says that they

are able to release all those where there is no evidence that they pose

a serious risk to the public when they are released? I thank my

honourable friend. The opposition talked about IPP sentenced prisoners

and it was the Labour Party who introduced the IPP sentence as my

honourable friend who abolished it, so well done. Well done. We have a

legacy with a number of these prisoners built in prison. What I've

done is established a IPP unit within the department to deal with

the backlog and make sure that we are addressing the issues that those

individuals have so that they can be released into society in a Safeway.

But we always last sheet public protection. -- safe way. There are

some who cannot be released for that reason. I think the Secretary of

State will be generous with her time. One of the area is great to me

by local police, which is impacting on our prisons, particularly in the

psychoactive substance abuse before coming into prison. And there are

types of prisoners that are having to be managed are all a different

ilk. The kind of addiction is unknown and difficult to quantify.

We might have an idea on how difficult that is. My honourable

friend is right. It's a very serious issue both in society and prison and

we are looking at additional training for prison officers to deal

with that. We also have tests to get those prisoners of those substances

and prisoner education programmes because they do have a serious and

their effects. When it comes to Greenpeace. What I want to do with

an Musee sentences is make sure we are addressing mental health issues.

-- community sentences. The four people commit crimes because they

are too many people coming into our prisons that are of high risk of

committing a crime. They need to intervene earlier and that is an

effective way of reducing circulation through our prisons.

Rather than saying we need to have an arbitrary number that the

release. What we need to do is deal with these issues before they become

at a level where somebody gets a kiss their team sentence and that is

our approach. I'll be saying more about that in due course. To drive

forward the reforms I've been talking about, they will have

control over budgets of education, staffing structures and be able to

set their own prison regime. At the moment, we have a whole plethora of

prison rules including how big prisonerbath-mat can be. I'm

grateful to my friend Mike. -- honourable friend. Particularly in

respect to those with commercial relationships governors can form

with companies to give proper work to prisoners. Could she say

something about 131 Solutions. My honourable friend must have read my

mind because it was only this morning we were talking about 131

Solutions as my honourable friend was establishing that organisation.

-- instrumental in establishing. This is vital to our reforms and I

want people on the inside to be doing jobs, training that leads to

work on the outside. We have to start from what jobs are available

on the outside and bring those employers into prison. We are

looking at how we can develop that. Furthermore, governors will have a

very strong incentive because there will be a measurement on how many

prisoners secure jobs on the outside but also how they go into

apprenticeship is on. What I want to see is offenders starting

apprenticeships on the inside that they can then complete on the

outside, so there's a seamless transition into work. We've got some

fantastic employers working with us, like brakes, Jensen, who I met this

morning. But we need more players participating. -- Timpsons. We need

to get that across better. -- Greggs. Instead of people going onto

benefits, that they go into employment that reduces reoffending.

We will launch a strategy any summer that will go into more details

about. -- that I will go into more detail about. A number of honourable

members have mentioned probation services. In the same way as we are

measuring outcomes for prison services, such as employment,

housing, education, we also want to see similar measures for probation

services, so we make sure that, when people are in the community, they

are also being encouraged into activities, god of drugs so they are

less likely to reoffend and we will be saying more about probation in

April when we announced our changes to the probation services. It's also

difficult, of course, for reform to take in dilapidated buildings, old

prisons, overcrowded prisons. That's why they are modernising the prison

estate to create 10,000 prison places where reform can flourish.

It's a ?1.3 billion investment programme and will reduce

overcrowding and replace outdated prisons with modern facilities. As

part of this, we are opening new prisons next month that will create

over 2000 modern places and we have made announcements about new prisons

in Glen Harper and whether brands well. We will make further

announcements about new prison capacity is as well -- Glenhaver and

Wellingborough. . One of the issues the FA as a society is not having

that definition of society. At the moment, the Secretary of State say I

am responsible for housing prisoners, but I say it's much more

than that. I am responsible for making sure that we are using that

time productively while people are in prison to turn their lives around

so that they become productive members of society. That is going to

be embedded in legislation and it will be accompanied by further

measures, including new standards, league tables and governed mint

empowerment. -- Government. We will also intervene in failing prisons

and with the prison in probation ombudsman on a statutory footing to

investigate deaths in custody and the number of statements from

honourable member about some of the very tragic deaths in custody that

we have seen, and the prison and relation ombudsman performs an truly

vital role. -- extremely. The whole house like knowledge there is too

much violence and self harm in our prisons. It is right to say we have

decade long problems on reoffending. Almost have prisoners reoffend

within one-year at a cost of ?15 million to our society and huge cost

to the victims who suffer from those crimes. That is why this

Government's prison reform agenda is such a priority. It's why we've

secured extra funding and we are taking immediate steps to address

violence and safety in our prisons. This will be a larger reform, the

largest of our prisons in a generation and these issues will not

be solved in weeks or months but I'm confident that, over time, we will

transform our prisons, reduce reoffending, get prisoners into jobs

and away from a life of crime. Thank you. The original question was as on

the order as that, since when it was first produced that it is that part

of the question. Can I say, we should heavily get everybody in on a

seven minute limit and can I call Caroline Flint? Thank you, Mr Deputy

Speaker. I have three constituencies. -- three prisons in

my constituency. Three very different prisons. One has category

C prisoners and we have another with 1000 prisoners in a cat C security

prison. We have another prison, a private establishment. Over many

years, I visited these prisons and overall I have the say the

relationship has been viewed and the community has been assured that

whatever is happening in these prisons has not have an adverse

affect on the divinity, though we do see a lot of people have bonding

from the open establishments. I know this area is very difficult and one

of the things I was proudest of when I was Home Office minister was

introducing drug testing on arrest for inquisitive crime. We could

identify the drug problem leading people to steal and giving them

support before they ended up in court. I believe we should do

everything we can to address the causes of crime, as well as being

dropped when people break the law. The Government has owned up to the

problem. In the White Paper, it has been acknowledged that the levels of

assault on staff of the highest on record. Comparing June 2012, total

assaults are up 64%. Assaults on staff are 99%. Incidents of self

harm of 57% deaths in custody at 75%. Prisons are less safe. But also

less safe from prisoners as well. -- less safe for staff. A lot of

prisoners but the system is failing to rehabilitate and failing to

protect the public from further crimes. In November, the Justice

Secretary wrote in the Daily Mail, what is Claire is that the system is

not working. I'm afraid what is also clear is that on the generation

Government what is that the Government is failing, too. --

clear. Failing to give care to officers and staff, to prisoners who

are more likely to be assaulted in germ cells -- assaulted, injure

themselves or others. It is also failing the taxpayer because, in

Hanover, the Government have admitted they cost of reoffending

?15 billion. If we look in violence in prisons, the latest safety in

custody statistics show that, for the year of June September 20 16,

over 300 deaths in prison. A doubling of self-inflicted deaths

among women prisoners from a very low base, but still important. Up to

eight, from four. Over 1000 cases of self harm. That is 400 incidents of

self harm to everyone via an prisoners. A staggering rate. Over

500 prisoners self harming. Over 2000 hospital attendances with

injuries serious enough to require treatment. That places pressure on

staff having to escort and leave other staff having to staff a

situation in their prisons where there have been reductions in the

staffing levels. In the year to June 2016, assault, 23,775 incidents.

That is 278 assault for every 1000 prisoners. The thousand 134 series

assault, up 32%. This is not a happy situation. -- 3000 134. Whether it

is the junior union or for that matter Unite. A prison in my

constituency office training to help prisoners get employment when they

leave. Little said in employees who, without the right staffing levels,

could be on the receiving end of an assault or two. Was disappointed

that the Minister didn't meet with community union to discuss the

charter for safety operating standards. The union represents many

of the staff in prisons and like EPO A, I think they've come up with

other constructive, practical suggestions as to how it could be

proved. That method that. It worries new that when we set for community

union shows that it is common to have one officer on a wing of 60

plus inmates. I'd be interested to hear from the Minister and his

response what they will do about making sure the end are working

better for our prisons. When it comes to the white paper

there is much, I think, worth discussing. It outlines improved

training for staff, body worn cameras, cognitive skills straining

and I agree with all of that, and the governors to have more freedoms,

but I have to say to the right honourable lady, in one of my

prisons in particular, the turnover of governors over the last decade

has been enormous. So we need to make sure we have governors who are

able to stay put and put into effect any of the changes they want to be

put into practice. But I'm sure she agrees as well, staffing is still

key to all of this. Stable staffing where people can work together with

prisoners, but also with each other to the best effect. The minister

promised 2500 more staff but that will not bring staffing levels back

to the 2010 level. The Government claim the 2500 is extra, it is good

to have clarity. But in answer to questions at the Justice committee

on the 29th of November in 2016, the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

State referred to the fact this will mean 8000 to be recruited in the

next two years which is 1000 per quarter, that is two to three times

the rate of the achieved in recent years, which looks a tall task. My

prison went from 252 staff to 296. HMP Moreland went from 386 to three

54. From 2015-2016 with upwards of 300 to 800 officers recruited per

quarter but that has failed to stem the shortfall and we are dealing

with an ageing prison population. It is important to look at new ideas

about how we can support prisoners and rehabilitate them but without

the right numbers of staff in our prisons, I feel that will be a tall

task, if not impossible to achieve. It is a real privilege to follow the

right honourable lady. She is highly effective advocate for the causes in

which he believes was an outstanding minister. When the Labour Party

comes to its senses, I hope she will restored to the front bench position

she deserves. May I also say congratulations are in order to the

Shadow Justice Secretary for securing this debate. It's important

have a roof opportunity to reflect on what is happening in our prisons.

I am grateful to him for calling this debate but it was a pity that

in the course of his remarks, while he understandably drew attention to

concerns about what is happening in our prison estate, did not put

forward a single positive alternative proposition. The

contrast with my right honourable friend the lost Chancellor and

Justice Secretary was striking. She has been in office for less than 12

months but during that time she has unveiled and advanced a series of

reforms which I believe have the potential to transform our justice

system more powerfully for the good than any of her predecessors for a

generation. And the way in which she dealt so skilfully with

interventions and also outlined not just in policy detail but with

authority and humanity, what requires to be done underlines how

fortunate we are to have a genuine, passionate and humane reform in such

an important role. Now, it's quite right and I think

almost every speaker in this debate will, paid tribute to those who work

in our prisons. I always remember a visit I made to HMP Manchester when

I talk to a prison officer who was working with the most difficult

prisoners. I asked him why it was he had chosen, deliberately, to work

with some of those offenders whose cases were most complex and whose

behaviour was most threatening. He explained he'd been brought up in a

part of Manchester affected by crime, with unique challenges and

one of the things he wanted to do was put something back, to work with

offenders, to make sure their were changed, and as a result that people

who had been nothing but trouble, people who had been liabilities to

society, people who had brought misery and pain into the lives of

others, people who were wasting their own lives, could be turned

into assets. That we as a society could ensure whatever talents they

had, long buried in many cases, could at last be put to the service

of the community. I remember being inspired by the fact that this young

man from a working-class background had decided that the biggest service

he could give to the community that raised him as to try and turn round

the lives of others. It's that spirit that is abundant in those who

work in our prisons. The frustrations I had in my role, I

never for a moment was anything other than grateful for their

service, their commitment and their dedication and that is why I'm

particularly grateful to my right honourable friend for the steps she

has taken to enhance the way those professionals at work in our prisons

can do the right thing. Not just the reform governors who are changing

the way in which prisons work by exercising a greater degree of

control and autonomy over the individual prisons that are there

responsible at it, but the way in which those who work on the front

line in our wings, particularly but not only in our form prisons, being

empowered to take a much more positive role in encouraging and

securing rehabilitation. I would like a decree to pay tribute to my

right honourable friend for the initiative she has unveiled,

unlocked Graduate. As she pointed out more than 350 undergraduates

from some of our very best universities have now applied

explicitly to work in prisons, just as teach first transformed the

reputation of teaching, so this initiative is helping to recruit

more people to our prisons. It is also the case that alongside the

work of unblocked graduates, prison education is ensuring those in

custody at last receive a higher quality of education and the chance

to transform their lives for the better. It is also the case that the

work of Charlie Taylor in reviewing youth justice is being followed up

and implemented by my right honourable friend. And in so doing,

we are making sure that those whose contact with the criminal justice

system occurs relatively early in their lives, who would otherwise be

set on a course of criminality, are diverted from crime and ensured to

have a productive future at the earliest possible stage.

Talking about youth justice, I think there is an important lesson that

all of us can draw from the experience of the youth justice

system over recent years. It has been the case that youth crime has

fallen, dramatically, in the last few years, at the same time as the

number of young offenders in custody has fallen also. It is not the case

that in order to be tough on crime that we need to maintain the same

level of individuals in custody that we currently have. There are smarter

alternatives to incarceration that we need to contemplate. Let me be

clear, there will always be some criminals for whom custody is the

only appropriate answer, given the seriousness of their crime and the

capacity that they have to reoffend. Sondheim Society will be so outraged

by particular crimes that incarceration is the only answer. --

and Sondheim Society will be so outraged.

I work in the city constituency and a visit to the Salvation Army a

couple of years ago, I came across somebody who had been imprisoned but

got institutionalised by it and therefore he just wanted to go back

fairly soon afterwards. My honourable friend is absolutely

right, some individuals become institutionalised by prison life.

There are many individuals who are imprisoned as a result of problems

that they have acquired, either mental health problems, or substance

abuse or a related issues, which means that their behaviour, as such,

that for their own health and Society does not safety, their need

is to be for a time separated from society, but they shouldn't be

imprisoned. They should be receiving appropriate mental health care,

because the environment they face in custody and incarceration will only

harm them and do nothing to either healed make sure they become

positive and contributing members to society. One of the things I would

like to see, and I know my right honourable friend is looking closely

at, is the possibility of building on the experience of problem-solving

course, where those who are charged with sentencing offenders have the

option of course of custody, who can also save to the offender if they

undertake mental health care or commit to dealing with their drug or

alcohol addiction or change their behaviour in a meaningful way, they

have the opportunity to serve their sentence out of custody. I also

think it is the case that release on temporary licence, the opportunity

for those people who have shown genuine redemption and a desire to

commit to society, giving them the opportunity to be released early,

under strict terms, so that they can reacquaint themselves with the world

of work and learning has to be the right way to go. I know of one who

is has been serving her sentence after one horrendous mistake, in a

women's prison in Surrey, who as a result of release on temporary

licence is not only been able to act as a mental to young offenders to

steer them away from a life of crime but is now pursuing training in

order to becoming a barrister. -- a mentor. To ensure the life which she

herself was responsible for harming can now be turned to good. I think

that example, I think that path is one that all of us in this house can

embrace, and for that reason, I support the amendment.

I'm grateful and it is a pleasure to follow the right honourable

gentleman. He, like me, is one of the number of exes in this chamber

today who have had responsibility at different times for the prison

service. He will know how difficult it is, as I do, to the Secretary of

State was my job and prison minister 's job to deal with these issues.

What you said today's extremely important about who we imprison and

how we use imprisonment and how we use alternative sentences. That

should be listened to. Even he would recognise there are many challenges

in the current system. I think from the Secretary of State's

contribution, she knows it. I think for my right honourable friend who

has tabled a motion today, he knows it. And speaking today is a member

from the Justice committee, in the absence of the honourable gentleman

for Bromley and Chislehurst, supported by the honourable lady of

Banbury, I want to put down some of the challenges as we see them from

the Justice committee today. My right honourable friend the Don

Valley has indicated some of the statistics but it is extremely

challenging. We have had six major incidents. We have had an escape,

which is an unusual occurrence for the last 13-14 years in prison. We

have got, sadly, a very high level of self-inflicted deaths, 107, a

rise of 13% over the previous year. And I certainly expect that to rise

still further with the figures that will be announced tomorrow. I will

give way. Extremely grateful. He will be

aware, as we all are, that on December 16 last year Jerry Smith

tragically killed herself in HMV Doncaster. The position of

transgender prisoners is one that is absolutely agonising in its

implication and I think it's one we simply have to recognise. Would he

accept that we need to do more for transgender prisoners at the moment,

in view of the horrendous record of self harm and suicide that has

afflicted them? I agree with my honourable friend. I

think question one yesterday was on that very issue on the Secretary of

State indicated it is a priority for the Government. We do have a number

of vulnerable people in prison and those self-inflicted deaths, and

also the homicides that have occurred are extremely difficult. We

have, as my right honourable friend mentioned, 26% increase in the

reported incidents of self harm. We have a massive increase of 35% in

hospital attendances. We have a massive increase in the number of

assaults on prison officers, by 34%. We have increases in the number of

attacks on bladed weapons, spitting and blunt instrument use, which is a

really challenging situation and I accept that. I welcome the fact that

the Secretary of State has, to some extent, you turned on the staffing

cuts that her predecessors had in place. She will know that there is a

real challenge to accept the increase to 4000 in each of the two

years, to get a net increase of 2500. I know the committee welcomes

that as a whole. At a time when we've seen the cut in

staffing numbers from 26% since 2010, we're not going to get

anywhere near back to the central point of the level of prison

officers that were in place in May, 2010. She needs to look at how we do

that. But I accept that is not the only concern we have today. I want

to come if I may, in the absence of the chair of justice of the select

committee, just highlight some of the things we are currently looking

at in the Justice select committee which I have the prisons minister

can respond to at some point in time, because these are key issues.

But we're not going to be what implements policies for a number of

years, so we need to offer strong scrutiny to other government is

currently doing anything this is the key issue the next few weeks and

months of the Justice committee. We have now established a presence at

committee, looking at a range of issues to do with government

empowerment and some other challenges the minister names. I am

pleased to share that role with the honourable lady for Banbury but we

are still, if I may, a little short of some of the detail of what's

going to happen in relation to the government's programme. And I think

it would be helpful for the Minister and the government to look at

putting the meat on their current level of activities so that we can

judge what is going to be taking place in whatever time they have

left in office in this government. Because we can talk about what the

alternative opposition policy will be, the election could be as far

away as three and a half years away nearly, so therefore in that time

this government have a key role to play. And we have heard today that

government empowerment will take place in just over two months' time

in April 20 17. We have one third of those and governors who will be

given that greater power and greater autonomy. I am not as clear as yet

how that will work in practice, what the benchmarks will be, how the

ministers will monitor those governors, what the outcomes will be

for those governors and what freedoms they will have that make a

difference. I am not sure that the speed of bringing those changes and

has yet been thought through by the government. We have as the Minister

will now six reformed prisons, which were piloted only in the last six

months, which we don't yet know the outcome of those reforms. I think it

is incumbent on the Minister to give some indication of what the current

outcomes are on those six reformed prisoners. I am not clear on the

accountability. I know from having the prison ministers job that when

something goes wrong in a prison it will end up on the prison Minister's

desk and almost certainly end up on the front of the Daily Mail or the

front of the sun. I'm not clear how that accountability will work in

relation to governors, and I think some clarity from the Minister as to

what the decision in a prison 200 miles from his office in the

Ministry of Justice will mean when ultimately it lands on his desk for

that level of accountability. I'm not clear, and I want clarity today,

about what the commissioning process will be for prison governors. Do

they have the skills and training to be able to commission services

outside for employment, for health, for procurement. Those things have

been done centrally. I'm not sure, Mr Deputy Speaker, whether the

effect of all that local level of commissioning will mean that we lose

some of the economies of scale that the Ministry of Justice has, and in

a fractured localised system what is the role of the Ministry of Justice

in setting issues in due cause? I'm not sure how governors are going to

recruit local prison officers. I would welcome some clarification on

behalf of our committee as to whether terms and conditions of

service, training, delivery are going to be devolved down, or

whether they're not. These are issues that go to the heart of the

government's amendment to the motion today, and go to the heart of the

prison subcommittee that we'll be looking at on a cross-party basis

with the Justice committee in the near future. I'm not sure whether

there is discretion. We've had evidence from Peter Dawson of the

Prison Reform Trust last week who said it would "Unleash competition

between governors, prisoners and probation in a competitive

environment, and the pros and cons might even drive up costs overall".

I think we need some real vision and clarity, not of the direction of

travel but of what the bones of that travel are with ministers as a

whole. I think it is also important we have some indication of what

performance measurement and league tables are going to look like

because ultimately at the end of the day as the right honourable member

for Surrey Heath and the Minister and my honourable friend have said,

we are caring for people through the gate. Most prisoners will leave

prison and return. Our due to as the state is to make sure they return in

a way that does not let them reoffend and ensures they contribute

positively to society. We need more facts from the government and bore

direction. A pleasure to follow the right honourable member who is one

of the club of exes in this area. When I held my honourable friend's

responsibilities, he knew perfectly well the bits of the system that

were very difficult to change, and I remember talking to him about the

possible to how many foreign nationals who are able to transfer

out of the system, and his regular interrogation as to how we doing

with the numbers showed his expertise and understanding of the

system and I am delighted at the work he is doing on the Justice

select committee and contributing to this debate. I hope my contribution

as one of the exes in trying to reflect on what I see about the

system will be hopefully a positive contribution to the debate, and I'm

delighted that it's my neighbour, my honourable friend for East Surrey,

who is the prisons minister who has been in my experience absolutely

open to talking to people who are experienced in the system, getting

ideas and getting very well across his brief. And he is to be

congratulated for that. He is less clear enough serving under the Lord

Chancellor who has the qualities my right honourable friend the Surrey

Heath gave, and he and the current Lord Chancellor of course put policy

back into the place that it was left by the time of my right honourable

learn that friend, the member for Rushcliffe, under whom I have the

honour to serve. The Shadow Lord Chancellor had I thought the one

point in his speech was the change of policy in that period between

2012 and the arrival of my right honourable friend the Surrey Heath

as Lord Chancellor did create significant difficulties for the

prison service. They would have found some favour with my friend the

honourable friend the Shipley. However we are now dealing with the

consequences and I have to tell him that the prison officers Association

is not innocent in this matter. The priority for my right honourable

friend for absent annual was to deliver the savings target that the

Ministry of Justice had to deliver, and they were significant. He was

then presented with a deal by the prison officers Association that if

he ended the competition programme for the potential privatisation of

prisons, a competition programme begun by the party opposite, if that

was the and the wings were left in the control of the public sector,

then they agreed to the establishment changes that were in

the public sector bits to try and hold onto the management of

Birmingham prison, and those were savage cuts in the establishment and

indeed the winning bid for HMP Birmingham had about 150 more staff

in the bid than the public sector bid, but it was the second round of

establishment cuts that would then be put into the service after

2012-2013, and implemented in the course of 2013-2040 and saw the very

severe establishment of reductions to the prison service, all in the

public sector, which is what my honourable friend is now having to

wrestle with the consequence of, and the government has woken up to the

consequences and is now putting 2500 prison officers back on the

establishment, and I know my honourable friend the South West

Beds had to deal with the consequences of this policy as the

then prisons minister, and immensely difficult it was too. And the

message I want to give to my honourable friend and the front

bench, and indeed try to win the itinerant across the house is the

potential role of the private sector. Do not overlook, and the

problem under my right honourable friend for absent annual was the row

with circa and G four S. Over the management of the tagging contracts.

Whatever the rights and wrongs of that, it caused G for S and circa

not to be considered for contract, the biggest suppliers of private

sector services into the custodial system, and it meant that we lost a

serious amount of competition, indeed a whole competition programme

was stopped, and the right honourable Lady for Don Valley

referred to Doncaster prison services, that is run by circular,

and when I went to see it as prisons minister, it was a quite outstanding

prison, and circa had engaged with the department and had a contract,

and they were incentivised on what they were going to deliver as

Doncaster prison. There is not necessarily a right and wrong answer

that public and private sector but the big advantage that private

sector prisons give you is first of all they are cheaper, they are

cheaper to run and blessed cost to the service. They also invest

heavily in the leadership in those prisons, and what I've found in my

experience is the most innovative prison regimes, particularly around

rehabilitation and management of offenders in prison was in the

private sector. Now I know that my honourable friend's reforms outlined

in the White Paper trying to give some of these freedoms now to the

governors of public sector prisons, and I wish him all power to his

elbow in order to do that, but it is my belief that if we are to get

resources into the custodial estate, there are two ways we are going to

achieve that. It has to be done in partnership with the private sector.

We need to change and improve the state, that means continuing with

the process of selling off the old prisons that are expensive to run

and often inexpensive parts of real estate, and operated by the private

sector. If the money is not available in the public sector

budget now, then at least the private sector gives you the ability

then to deal with the funding over a prolonged period. Oakwood prison,

the costs of running a place in Oakwood prison, the shadow spokesman

makes the point was ?13,000 a year for it was in place compare to an

average cost of ?22,000 per place for a more expensive... Thank you Mr

Deputy Speaker, and I'm pleased to follow the right honourable member

for Reigate, and I want to thank him for his interest in Durham prison,

when he was prisons minister but I have to say I profoundly disagree

with him that privatisation of the prisons is somehow the answer to the

problems were currently facing. Like my right honourable friend, the

member for Don Valley, I have three prisons in my constituency. I have

Durham prison which is a community prison with 1000 prisoners or

thereabouts, I have a high security prison, Franklin prison, with over

800 prisoners, and I also perhaps more unusually because there are not

very many of them in the country, I have a women's prison and a youth

offending institution as well. So I think I'm in a pretty good position

to have some direct and first-hand knowledge, right across the prison

estate, what is happening to prisons currently. And the picture is not a

good one. What we know is that prison budgets have been reducing

with the budget being cut by 2010 by almost a quarter. There were savings

made last year up to about 900 million, with another 91 million of

savings being requested from prisons this year. At the same time of

course the prison population has not really fallen, and most of these

cuts have come in terms of cuts to prison staff numbers. So we have had

a reduction of over 6000 prison staff since 2010. Now this has

really an enormous impact on the ability of our prisons to run

effectively, and as we have heard this afternoon, welcome though it is

that the government is going to recruit another 2500 prison

officers, it doesn't make up for the shortfall or the cuts since 2010,

and of course we also know that the government will have to recruit

many, many more than 2500 in order to be able to find the number of

prison staff that we need. And what has been the impact of this on our

prisons? Deaths in custody are up by 14%,

self harm is up 21%, assaults are up 13% and that means assaults on staff

being up 20%, and serious assault on staff up by 42%.

Now, I don't know about the prisons minister sitting on the bench, but

that is not a record that I would want to stand up and defend. That's

a set of circumstances that I would want to come to the House and we

recognise that there are real problems in our prisons, and these

other measures we are going to take as a matter of urgency, in order to

get our prisons back on track. And a white paper doesn't really cut that,

so one of the things I want to hear from the prisons minister in his

winding up, is what is he going to do as a matter of urgency, to

address some of the problems facing our prisons. I want to just quickly,

because I've only got for a minute for each of them, run through what I

think it needs to do. For the women's prison, far to women are

inappropriately sent to prison. 52% of women in our prisons have

children and lots of those children end up going into care when their

mother -- mothers are put into prison for a short period of time. I

would like to see from the Government a clear strategy to deal

with women prisoners, to direct them to other forms of custody and bring

forward a plan and I look forward to hearing what he and the Justice

Secretary is going to come forward with. I think they said they would

announce it later this year, in terms of a plan for women prisoners,

and in particular cutting the prisoners state, so women are really

given much more sentences in the community, or other types of

custody, rather than in the prisons as they currently are. With Durham

prison, that's community prison, received is really high. We need to

see measures to cut it and in particular to continue to invest in

education, skills and work experience. We know from the

monitoring reports on the inspections that not enough

attention is going into education and skills. That is really

difficult. Difficult to maintain high levels of

education my numbers are being cut. That is an area the Government needs

to address. Frankland prison, in some respects presents the biggest

challenge for the Government. The prisoners have very complex needs.

We know from the monitoring reports that what is critical is that the

Government continues to resource centre that deals with violent

behaviour, for example, and tries to turn it round for the prison

population. All of those special services are at risk if prisons are

not properly staffed and if they are not properly resourced. What I want

to hear from the minister is what is he going to do quickly, to resource

our prisons more effectively, and to ensure the sedative The Miz reduced

and alternative to prisons for men and women? Gordon Henderson, it will

have to go down to six Thank you for that good news, Mr Deputy Speaker.

It is great to follow the honourable member for Durham. Like her, and the

right honourable member for Don Valley, I also have three prisons in

my constituency. Lalli, Stamford hell and Wales side, which is

mentioned in the opposition motion. One of the largest concentration of

thousands in the country. I would like to begin by paying tribute to

the fantastic men and women who work in the prisons, they are dedicated

and hard-working professionals, of whom I am immensely proud. They work

in extremely challenging environments, facing on an almost

daily basis the threat of violence, with few complaints and a great deal

of courage. Mr Deputy Speaker, that threat of violence is growing for

all sorts of reasons, some of which we've heard. They include the

increase of drugs are smuggled into prisons, often by drones that

deliver contraband direct to the cells. Increased alcohol and gang

culture in prisons, retribution for of debts, violence for the recovery

of stolen contraband and frustration caused by reduction in recreation

time because of a shortage of prison officers. That is a fact I am

particular concerned with, because unless something is done soon to

increase staffing levels, or those other problems I've mentioned will

get worse. There's no denying morale among prison staff is low, and

that's not surprising when you consider the environment in which

prison staff have to work. The police are dealing with people all

day but those people are victims of crime or people suspected of crimes,

but who turn out to be innocent. The people with whom prison officers

deal, have to deal with day in and day out have all been found guilty

of a crime, many of them violent crimes. If a police officer is

attacked in England the perpetrators are tracked down, prosecuted and if

found guilty sent to prison for a lengthy sentence. However if a

prison officer is attacked by prisoner, too often in the past the

only punishment meted out is withdrawal of privileges. Now I

believe prison officer should be treated in exactly the same way as

police officers. If a prison at attacks prison officer or another

prisoner, I think that person should be tried and if found guilty being

given as sentence as if the prison crime is committed outside prison.

That sentence should then be added to the sentence prisoner is already

serving. I believe what we need now is a

proper review of the working conditions and pay structure of

prison officers, including perhaps consideration, again, of

regionalising pay that recognises the high cost of living in the south

of England. And the difficulties in attracting so many people in a job

with so many challenges when there is better opportunity available. I

believe also the Government needs to re-examine its policy on retirement

age of prison officers. It simply unfair that police officers and

firefighters are able to retire at 60, where as prison officers are

expected to work until they are 68, despite their work being just as

physically demanding. Mr Deputy Speaker, my prison

officers have a very difficult job, made worse by the ratio of

front-line officers to inmates. I would like to set out what the ratio

is and I do so by using information from the quarterly workforce