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people of working age. I will have to look at the details of this case | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
if she will be in contact with me. Urgent question, Rebecca Long | :00:00. | :00:09. | |
Bailey. Thank you Mr Speaker. I want to ask the Secretary of State for | :00:10. | :00:13. | |
business, energy and industrial strategy if he will make a statement | :00:14. | :00:16. | |
on the nuclear decommissioning authority's early contract | :00:17. | :00:29. | |
terminations on one estate. The Secretary of State for business | :00:30. | :00:31. | |
energy and industrial strategy, Secretary Doctor Greg Clark. This | :00:32. | :00:39. | |
morning I informed the House that the nuclear decommissioning | :00:40. | :00:49. | |
authority had terminated its contracts, a tender process resulted | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
in 40 new contract being awarded in September 2014. A joint-venture | :00:54. | :01:05. | |
between one British firm. Work began on September one, 2014 and then they | :01:06. | :01:08. | |
started the consolidation process to show that the scope of the tender | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
match the decommission. It became clear that there is a significant | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
mismatch between the work is intended and the work carried out. | :01:20. | :01:26. | |
It concluded that the conduct should be terminated on two years notice. | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
The contract is no reflection whatsoever on their performance. | :01:31. | :01:36. | |
Dealing safely, the UK nuclear legacy is fundamentally | :01:37. | :01:38. | |
non-negotiable. Decommissioning work will continue for a further two and | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
a half years. Arrangements will be made for a replacement structure to | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
be put in place for when the current contract ends. The NDA has also | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
settled outstanding claims against it by energy solutions in relation | :01:53. | :02:00. | |
to the 2014 Magnox contract. The NDA was found by the High Court to have | :02:01. | :02:04. | |
wrongly decided the outcome of the procurement process. It was clear | :02:05. | :02:08. | |
that the 2012 tender process was deeply flawed. The NDA has agreed | :02:09. | :02:13. | |
settlement claims with energy solutions, totalling ?76.5 million | :02:14. | :02:20. | |
plus ?8.5 million costs and Whitbeck tell a $14.8 million plus costs of | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
around ?462,000, approximately ?12.5 million in total. Very substantial | :02:26. | :02:30. | |
costs which could have risen further if the case had proceeded. Taxpayers | :02:31. | :02:36. | |
must be able to feel confident that public bodies operating effectively | :02:37. | :02:40. | |
and securing value for money. Where this has not been achieved, such | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
bodies should be subject to rigorous scrutiny. I have therefore | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
established an independent inquiry into the original procurement | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
process and why 2014 contract proved unsustainable. These are separate | :02:54. | :02:56. | |
issues that need to be examined thoroughly. I've asked Mr Steve | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
Holliday, former chief executive of National Grid, to lead this inquiry. | :03:02. | :03:07. | |
It will take a cradle to grave approach, beginning with the NDA's | :03:08. | :03:10. | |
procurement and ending with the contract termination. The inquiry | :03:11. | :03:14. | |
will set out the lessons learned and recommend any further actions it | :03:15. | :03:20. | |
sees fit including any disciplinary proceedings that may be appropriate. | :03:21. | :03:24. | |
The inquiry will report jointly to me and to the Cabinet Secretary and | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
his report will be available to this house and the select committee. Mr | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
Speaker, this was a defective procurement with significant | :03:35. | :03:36. | |
financial consequences and I am determined that the lessons to be | :03:37. | :03:41. | |
learnt should be exposed and understood, that those responsible | :03:42. | :03:44. | |
should be properly held to account and it should never happen again. | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
Rebecca Long Bailey. Thank you. The NDA has withdrawn its appeal against | :03:51. | :03:53. | |
the judgment handed down in late July last year. Commerce Secretary | :03:54. | :03:57. | |
therefore confirm why this decision has been taken now, while -- can the | :03:58. | :04:03. | |
secretary confirm why the matter was brought to appeal and whether the | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
actions of the former sanctioned by the secretary or his predecessor. | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
The judgment confirmed that the NDA hadn't acted properly in the tender | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
process and that the NDA was acutely aware that an unsuccessful bidder | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
might challenge the outcome of the competition. The court also stated | :04:20. | :04:25. | |
that the NDA had fudged the evaluation to achieve a particular | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
outcome. What's more worrying, the judge also confirmed that the NDA | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
attempted to get rid of information that might have been detrimental to | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
it. That included reference to shredding notes. | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
Will the Secretary of State ensure the House there'll be full public | :04:42. | :04:46. | |
disclosure of investigations and a public hearing? Does the secretary | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
also agree that the future operation of the NDA has been called into | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
question as a result of this case and will he confirm what structural | :04:56. | :04:59. | |
changes are necessary and when? Can he offer any assurances to workers | :05:00. | :05:06. | |
going forward and finally, the secretary's written statement | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
confirms that it's become clear to the NDA that there's significantly a | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
mismatch between the work specified in the contract as tended in 2012. | :05:15. | :05:19. | |
Can the secretary therefore confirm when he or his predecessor was first | :05:20. | :05:23. | |
aware of this mismatch and whether this would have been apparent from | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
the work that was already being carried out by previous contractors? | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
Thank you Mr Speaker. The honourable lady is quite right to ask the | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
question and I hope she will agree that the written ministerial | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
statement I've made today is thorough and comprehensive and I'm | :05:40. | :05:43. | |
very happy to have conversations with her and the Select Committee | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
over the weeks and months ahead. She asked some specific questions about | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
the term nation of the contract and the litigation. In terms of the | :05:54. | :06:00. | |
litigation, there was indeed a judgment hering of the court in July | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
last year and another in December that the NDA has reflected on. On | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
1st March of this year, a Fu weeks ago, a new Chief Executive and chair | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
of the NDA took office and it seemed to me appropriate that a new set of | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
eyes should consider these matters and a course of action rather than | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
those people who were responsible and involved in the procurement | :06:27. | :06:28. | |
exercise. In answer to her question, it was a | :06:29. | :06:36. | |
decision for the NDA board, that is how it's constitutionally | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
established but its decision required ratification by me, the | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
Chief Secretary to the Treasury and by the accounting officer in my | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
department. She raises some very important questions about the | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
conduct of the original procurement and its management. This is exactly | :06:54. | :06:58. | |
why, it seems to me, we need to have an independent figure, independent | :06:59. | :07:02. | |
of Government, independent of the NDA, to report to this House, make | :07:03. | :07:06. | |
the report available to this House, to me, but also to the Cabinet | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
Secretary. Not only to learn the lessons to make sure things cannot | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
happen again, but if there is fault and an error has been made, then the | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
recommendation of disciplinary action can follow from that. She | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
quite rightly raises the question of the workforce for whom this will be | :07:29. | :07:35. | |
a difficult day. I'm happy to confirm to the House there is no | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
question of the good performance operationally of the contract. It | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
was a question of the terms of letting the contract. Good progress | :07:44. | :07:48. | |
has been made. The workforce that has employed -- is employed in the | :07:49. | :07:53. | |
decommissioning contract will continue as planned and when the | :07:54. | :07:57. | |
report is made available, lessons will be learnt about the structure | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
of the NDA as well as any particular procedural aspects. | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
Will my right honourable friend join me in paying tribute to the | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
workforce at Brattedwell who're doing a brilliant job in | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
decommissioning that power station and will he confirm that nothing in | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
that statement will prevent the work going forward -- Bradwell. Will he | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
listen to the concerns about the pensions entitlements and the cap on | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
exit payments? I say to my right honourable friend | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
that I certainly join him in paying tribe yew to the workforce there. -- | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
tribute. Good progress has been made in Bradwell in terms of | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
decommissioning the site there, as he knows, with if underground waste | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
vaults containing intermedial level waste having been cleared and decome | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
Tam negotiated, that is a reflection of the hard work there -- | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
decontaminated. In terms of pensions, there is a sbrat set of | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
discusses and consultation that is going on surrounding that, that is | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
not related to today's announcement. Mr Speaker, I thank the Minister for | :09:06. | :09:10. | |
His response and the Shadow secretary for securing this urgent | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
question. This debacle shows the UK Government cannot even manage its | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
current nuclear project which comes at great cost to the taxpayer, | :09:18. | :09:23. | |
leaving its case for a nuclear energy future more thread-bare than | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
ever. We we take into account the bare and ill logical system to | :09:29. | :09:35. | |
leave, there is rights to be concerned, we are right to seek | :09:36. | :09:38. | |
assurances that decommissioning will not lead to standards deteriorating. | :09:39. | :09:42. | |
What assurance can the secretary give today? This should be a wake-up | :09:43. | :09:50. | |
call. The UK's deterrent... This will only burden the next generation | :09:51. | :09:56. | |
with unprecedented, economic, environmental and security | :09:57. | :09:58. | |
instability and risk. The Tories should do the responsible thing and | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
scrap the nuclear obsession in favour of investment in renewable | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
energy and carbon capture technology. Scottish Renewables | :10:08. | :10:11. | |
recently reported one in six renewable energy jobs in Scotland is | :10:12. | :10:16. | |
under threat in the next year. Will the Government acknowledge that its | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
energy policies need to be reviewed to allow the Scottish Government to | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
continue with its competent and ambitious vision of a prosperous | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
green future and finally, when can we expect full details of the | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
timetable of this investigation into this matter? | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
I would say to the honourable lady that a little humility might be | :10:39. | :10:41. | |
appropriate here because the Scottish Government's provided | :10:42. | :10:46. | |
oversights of this procurement as part of the NDA competition | :10:47. | :10:49. | |
programme board and I'm sure that the lessons to be learnt will apply | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
to the Government in Scotland as well between 2012 and 2014. I'm sure | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
the people of Scotland, as well as those of the whole of the United | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
Kingdom, whatever their view on future new nuclear power, would want | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
the existing nuclear power stations to be decommissioned safely and to | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
have arrangements in place that that can be done reliably. In terms of | :11:14. | :11:20. | |
the independent review which I hope she welcomes, I have asked Mr | :11:21. | :11:29. | |
Holliday to give interim findings by October of this year. Thank you, Mr | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
Speaker. I'm sure my right honourable friend paid no attention | :11:37. | :11:43. | |
whatsoever to the bizarre considerations of the SNP spokesman | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
but I hope that in asking Steve Holliday, a person in whom we have | :11:48. | :11:51. | |
considerable confidence to do this review, he will seek to bring the | :11:52. | :11:54. | |
review himself to a reasonable conclusion very soon after the | :11:55. | :11:58. | |
report in October so we can get to the bottom of this and make sure, as | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
he rightly says, that it will not repeat itself in future years. | :12:03. | :12:05. | |
I agree with my right honourable friend. It's important quickly to | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
learn the lessons and to apply them. This is very important work. The | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
work has been and is being carried out to a high standard, but lessons | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
need to be learnt and applied. May I thank the Secretary of State | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
for His courtesy call to me on this matter this morning. The Select | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
Committee will challenge hard but work constructively with him and | :12:32. | :12:35. | |
Steve Holliday on this important issue. Will he clarify whether the | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
inquiry will be confined to the procurement process which led to | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
this specific contract. Will it consider other contracts such as | :12:44. | :12:51. | |
that to decommission to the same consortium that won the other | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
contract. Will he confirm the inquiry will be broad enough to | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
consider whether the governance and management arrangements have always | :13:02. | :13:04. | |
been and will continue to be fit for purpose. I'm grateful to the | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
honourable gentleman. I can confirm what he said which is that the | :13:11. | :13:15. | |
governance and management arrangements of the NDA are very | :13:16. | :13:19. | |
much in scope. I put the terms of reference into the library of both | :13:20. | :13:24. | |
Houses of Parliament. It's open to Mr Holliday to go to where the | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
evidence is. The particular concern is about this contract but if he | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
feels he needs to look at other aspects of the NDA's management, | :13:40. | :13:47. | |
he's absolutely free to do so. I welcome the characteristic candour | :13:48. | :13:50. | |
and openness with which the Secretary of State has approached | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
this issue. Can he reassure me and the house that in the context of the | :13:56. | :13:58. | |
scope of this inquiry not only will it look at the NDA but will be able | :13:59. | :14:03. | |
to, as I think he just alluded to, to look at the role, if any, of UK | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
Government departments and the Scottish daft in this process as | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
well? I will indeed. The terms of | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
reference with my written statement make it clear that it applies to the | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
NDA and to Government departments as well, that is absolutely right and | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
proper and from the beginning of the procurement in 2012 to the | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
conclusion of the litigation and the termination of the contract. | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
Under current plans, the power station will lose most of its jobs | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
in under ten years. The Government is in a position to commit to | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
decommissioning as recommended dithe Welsh Affairs Select Committee. When | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
will he publish plans and will he agree with me to discuss the future | :14:52. | :14:55. | |
of the site? I will certainly meet with the honourable lady and I'm | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
grad she's given me the opportunity to do so. Work is ahead of schedule | :14:59. | :15:11. | |
in the plant that she mentions. I will, in the light of that, will | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
meet with her to update her on the latest timings. | :15:16. | :15:22. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. This was clearly a defective procurement with | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
quite serious financial consequences and I welcome the Secretary of | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
State's determination that the reasons for it will be exposed. But | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
will he assure this House that where people are found to be responsible | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
are at fault, they will be bought to account. | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
Mr Speaker, I can confirm to my right honourable friend that the | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
terms of reference makes it very clear that the inquiry can make any | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
recommendations it sees fit, including as to any disciplinary | :15:55. | :15:57. | |
investigations or proceedings that may in its view be appropriate as a | :15:58. | :15:59. | |
result of its findings. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Could the | :16:00. | :16:08. | |
Secretary of State please confirm that the thousands of people waiting | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
for an outcome on their pensions will not be ripped off? Yes, Mr | :16:13. | :16:19. | |
Speaker, there have been constructive discussions with the | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
representatives of the workforce. They're continuing the consultation | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
and it continues. Of course we want to bring them to a satisfactory | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
conclusion. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The NDA | :16:33. | :16:36. | |
settlement payments are substantial. Can my right honourable friend | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
confirm that whilst the payments were made without accepting | :16:42. | :16:45. | |
liability, that the cost has potential to rise much further had | :16:46. | :16:47. | |
they gone to court. My right honourable friend is | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
absolutely right and we have a duty to consider the further risks to | :16:54. | :16:58. | |
public money which is why my accounting officer and the Chief | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
Secretary to the Treasury and I on advice accepted that however painful | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
it is and these are very significant sums of money, as my right | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
honourable friend said, that we should be preventing those sums of | :17:13. | :17:19. | |
money being even greater. Given the cost problems with this | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
NDA decommissioning contract, how can the Secretary of State have any | :17:25. | :17:29. | |
confidence whatsoever in the cost figures for Hinkley point C which | :17:30. | :17:32. | |
will itself need decommissioning, especially given the farce of the | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
massive cost overruns and huge time delays in building the EDF Sister | :17:36. | :17:43. | |
reactors in Finland and Normandy, neither of which has opened years | :17:44. | :17:48. | |
later at a massive cost overrun. This is about a procurement process | :17:49. | :17:55. | |
that was misspecified around decommissioning, not against the | :17:56. | :18:01. | |
bill cost of a future reactor. When we have the report off Steve | :18:02. | :18:05. | |
Holliday, if there are wider lessons for the industry, we'll be sure to | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
take them. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There's much | :18:11. | :18:15. | |
that all public sector organisations can learn from procurement process | :18:16. | :18:20. | |
and public private initiatives as the 3,700 per minute spent by the | :18:21. | :18:25. | |
NHS on PFI would attest. Would the Secretary of State assure me that | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
all public sector organisations will be given the opportunity to benefit | :18:31. | :18:35. | |
from the review? It's important when there is such a serious set of | :18:36. | :18:40. | |
consequences for public money that the conclusion should be publicly | :18:41. | :18:43. | |
available, available to this House and including for other Government | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
departments that may want to reflect on that. | :18:47. | :18:55. | |
Can the Secretary of State confirm the holiday enquiry will have | :18:56. | :19:02. | |
reached its final conclusions and issued its final report in time for | :19:03. | :19:07. | |
any lessons to be learned, to be taken into account before the new | :19:08. | :19:16. | |
contract process begins? I've asked Mr Holliday to make a report by | :19:17. | :19:22. | |
October and so that I can happen. I will meet with him in the coming | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
days as he sets out the scope. But that is one key reason for the | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
report and I'm sure he will want to make his recommendations available | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
for the new process. What were the terms of the payoff, | :19:36. | :19:42. | |
he has not mentioned it? I have mentioned the settlement, it is | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
nearly ?100 million for the settlement of the litigation. Under | :19:47. | :19:55. | |
chief of the NDA has come to the end of his contract. -- and the chief. | :19:56. | :20:03. | |
Order. I will come to other honourable members in a moment. On a | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
point of ratification, Mr Andrew Bridge. Following a report made on | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
the 14th February by the commission of standard I would like to | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
apologise to house the failure to disclose a financial interest in a | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
debate on HS2 on the 25th of March 2000 15. I should have declared that | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
due to a court order caused by my divorce I was in the final act of | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
selling my house to a shift to under the extreme hardship scheme. I would | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
point out to the House that I did declare an interest in the previous | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
HS2 debate on the 20th of January 2013, 20 6th of June 2013 and a pull | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
the 28th 2014. On reflection I should have declared an interest | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
when I submitted a written question to the Transport Secretary Mo 9th of | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
October 2030 and when I spoke in the preparations debate on the 31st of | :21:01. | :21:05. | |
October 2000 13. I also attended meetings with HS2 and responded the | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
consultation were in hindsight for purposes of clarity I should have | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
declared an interest. Mr Speaker sought to cooperate with the | :21:17. | :21:18. | |
Commissioner for standards throughout this enquiry and have | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
never made any secret of how close HS2 was running to my then property | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
in North West Leicestershire. This in no way clouded my view of the HS2 | :21:26. | :21:32. | |
Project, a project I opposed before road was announced. I thank you for | :21:33. | :21:37. | |
the opportunity to put this on my record and apologise to the House | :21:38. | :21:40. | |
profusely for any omissions I may have made. I think the honourable | :21:41. | :21:47. | |
gentleman for what he said. Point of order, Mr Blackford. I would like to | :21:48. | :21:50. | |
raise the issue of correspondence between myself and the Minister of | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
State for the University of science office and the Minister for energy. | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
I first wrote to the Minister of State for the University of science | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
to request a meeting for a business in my constituency, the underwater | :22:06. | :22:08. | |
Centre on the 14th of November. It took some time to get a reply from | :22:09. | :22:13. | |
the government department. I finally received a reply on the 22nd of | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
December with an apology for the lack of response. With an | :22:18. | :22:20. | |
unwillingness to meet and suggested I taken up with the Minister for | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
energy and industrial supply. That I did on the 22nd of December last | :22:26. | :22:31. | |
year and I have chased the office on several occasions both by e-mail and | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
telephone and we have yet to receive an e-mail indicating that I would be | :22:35. | :22:47. | |
raising this as a point of order. I would like advice as to what a | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
member can do when an office seeks to ignore the request for a meeting. | :22:52. | :23:00. | |
Persist, I say to the honourable gentleman. That is the advice I | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
give. His attempted point of order has opened an interesting window | :23:05. | :23:16. | |
into his life. The diary commitments to which of the subject and I'm sure | :23:17. | :23:18. | |
the House is immensely grateful to the House is immensely grateful to | :23:19. | :23:20. | |
him. But I do not think we can take the matter any further. My advice | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
will always be to persist. For he is nothing himself is not a dogwood | :23:27. | :23:32. | |
terrier. Point of order, Maria Miller. In the last few days there | :23:33. | :23:36. | |
have been almost 1000 people arrested, beaten or imprisoned in | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
Belarus, a country still under an effective dictatorship here in | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
Europe. How can we show our solidarity to those in Belarus who | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
are fighting for democracy, fighting for freedom of speech, fighting for | :23:51. | :23:56. | |
the rule of law? I struggle immediately to see how the | :23:57. | :23:59. | |
observations of the honourable lady constitute a point of order. That | :24:00. | :24:05. | |
said, I recognise and respect the seriousness of the consent and I | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
acknowledge on the floor of the House her long-standing track record | :24:11. | :24:16. | |
of support for the Belarus free theatre. My initial answer to her is | :24:17. | :24:21. | |
that I think that by persistence and the good fortune of the ballot, she | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
has probably secured her own salvation and possibly an | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
opportunity to press for the salvation of those who need it more | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
intensely and immediately because she has questioned nine if memory | :24:37. | :24:43. | |
serves me correctly at the Foreign Office questions tomorrow. It would | :24:44. | :24:50. | |
be very unfortunate if we did not get to number nine. And I think I | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
can say with some confidence that we will. Right honourable lady speaking | :24:56. | :24:59. | |
on behalf of those people who need her help and will value it, we'll | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
have a chance. What is more if she expresses herself with her usual | :25:06. | :25:10. | |
force and eloquence, she might motivate other honourable and right | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
honourable members to spring to their feet in supplementary | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
questions following her own. And if so I will be all eyes and ears. | :25:18. | :25:26. | |
Point of order, Mr Chris Bryant. At four o'clock the deadline past in | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
Northern Ireland and I do not want to make any accusations against the | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
government by the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland is making a | :25:35. | :25:37. | |
statement in Another Place about what he now expects to happen. I | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
just wondered if you had any notification of a statement to the | :25:42. | :25:44. | |
House so that the House can express a view. I'm very grateful to the | :25:45. | :25:49. | |
right honourable gentleman. The short answer is that I have not | :25:50. | :25:54. | |
received any indication that the Secretary of State is minded to come | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
here. From the record, of dealing with this secular state and this | :26:01. | :26:03. | |
particular right honourable gentleman, I can say he has always | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
been fastidious in wanting to come to the House, often telephoning me | :26:08. | :26:12. | |
and trying to make contact. Indeed I am advised that he has sought to | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
make contact with me by telephone. However I have received no written | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
communication from him at all and no indication of an early statement. I | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
think one would have been forthcoming anyway and in light of | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
my exchange with the right honourable gentleman I feel even | :26:30. | :26:34. | |
more confident that it will be. Point of order, Mr Jessye Norman. | :26:35. | :26:38. | |
Further to to the point of order raised by the SNP, I was not clear | :26:39. | :26:45. | |
whether it was me to whom he referred but I would be delighted to | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
meet the gentleman to discuss the issue that he raised. I'm grateful | :26:50. | :26:57. | |
for the clarification. Just to be clear,... No additional clarity | :26:58. | :27:03. | |
required. The honourable gentleman is a cheeky fellow, a simple nod of | :27:04. | :27:07. | |
the head would suffice. In my experience the honourable gentleman | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
is as courteous as members in This Place come. And I think we will | :27:14. | :27:16. | |
leave it. That they will get together possibly over a cup of tea | :27:17. | :27:20. | |
and discuss these important matters. We will that therefore now. If there | :27:21. | :27:27. | |
are no further points of order, the clerk will now proceed to read the | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
orders of the day. Bus services Bill, to be considered. We begin | :27:33. | :27:42. | |
with new clause number one, also new courses number two and three. I call | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
the Shadow Secretary of State for Transport. No indeed, he's being | :27:47. | :28:00. | |
substituted by Mr Daniels. I rise to move new clause one in my name. It | :28:01. | :28:11. | |
would require that the secular state for transport publish a national | :28:12. | :28:13. | |
strategy for local bus services within 12 months of the day on which | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
the act is passed setting up the objectives, targets and funding | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
provisions for buses over the next ten years. It also require that a | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
national funding strategy included consideration of a reduced their | :28:28. | :28:29. | |
concessionary scheme for young people aged 16 to 19. New clause was | :28:30. | :28:35. | |
two and three in the name of the honourable member for Southport also | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
relate to young people's concessionary fares and bus funding. | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
Clause number two would require a report before Parliament setting up | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
possible steps to support local transport authorities providing | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
concessionary bus travel to apprentices and new clause three | :28:55. | :28:56. | |
would require that local transport authorities assess how creating an | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
authority wide travel concessionary scheme for those in full-time | :29:04. | :29:05. | |
education would affect how the students use the bus services. So it | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
is clear long-term national discussion from central government | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
on the funding of the bus industry is long overdue. Since the bus | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
market in England outside London was disastrously deregulated in the | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
1980s by Conservative government, the way in which public support for | :29:24. | :29:28. | |
bus services has been provided has been far from transparent. The | :29:29. | :29:30. | |
effects of deregulation have been stark. With my honourable friend | :29:31. | :29:38. | |
agree with me that the drop in passenger journey numbers in | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
Yorkshire by more than half since 1985 is no coincidence but is down | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
to deregulation. I very much agree. And I will return to other examples | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
of the failures of deregulation in a moment. It is not just the number of | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
services because the Paris have also risen faster than inflation, | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
patronage has fallen by more than a third overall and bus market | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
monopolies have become the norm in too many places. Back in October we | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
noted the 30th anniversary of bus deregulation but it was far from a | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
cause for celebration. 30 years of bus users being ripped off by a | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
handful of big bus operators who have carved up the market into | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
chunks and they go largely unchallenged in their territories. | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
Would he agree with me that for people on low incomes in rural areas | :30:31. | :30:35. | |
and indeed some urban areas as well it is almost impossible to job out | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
and seek employment without a decent bus service. Once again I agree with | :30:41. | :30:46. | |
my honourable friend, too many parts of the country have become difficult | :30:47. | :30:48. | |
for people to get to and from work. for people to get to and from work. | :30:49. | :30:53. | |
Of course through those 30 years, the fares have shot up even at times | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
when fuel prices have been falling. So we've seen 30 years of passenger | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
decline in the rest of England while patronage in the still regulated | :31:02. | :31:06. | |
capital have increased. This month campaign for better published its | :31:07. | :31:10. | |
latest report and the organisation made over 100 Freedom of information | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
requests to local councils to get a full picture of recent bus cuts. | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
They found funding for the buses across England and Wales has been | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
cut by 33% since 2010 and by almost ?30 million in just the last year. I | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
was in Somerset last week were support for the county council will | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
fall by another 19% next year. Across the country over 500 routes | :31:34. | :31:39. | |
were reduced or completely withdrawn in 2016. But despite this seemingly | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
endless round of bus cuts that has been going on and on the government | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
seems reluctant to look at anything that can be done to improve the | :31:50. | :31:55. | |
current system of bus funding. The argument is well rehearsed, the bus | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
industry is a private industry, and has nothing to do with central | :31:59. | :32:02. | |
government or central government money. But that is just not the | :32:03. | :32:06. | |
case, around half the bus industry funding comes from the public press. | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
In 2014 total public support for buses accounted for 41% of overall | :32:12. | :32:16. | |
industry funding. In the past that figure has been higher. Over 46%. So | :32:17. | :32:24. | |
I think asking the government to publish their strategy regarding the | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
funding for buses in a single document is asking that much. We | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
just want to have some clarity around a system that has become | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
convoluted and confusing. The strategy will set out, the plan and | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
objectives for public money going towards local authority supported | :32:42. | :32:44. | |
bus services, the reimbursement of bus operators for trips made by | :32:45. | :32:46. | |
concessionary pass-holders and the payment of the bus service operators | :32:47. | :32:50. | |
grants to bus operators. Public money is being spent on buses, yet | :32:51. | :32:57. | |
the government has no strategy and we believe that needs to change. As | :32:58. | :33:02. | |
I've raised before, we are in a situation for operators are being | :33:03. | :33:05. | |
reimbursed by public money for trips being made by concessionary | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
pass-holders yet they're able to cut services and groups. The public have | :33:09. | :33:12. | |
no say. That means in some situations we have the bizarre | :33:13. | :33:17. | |
situation where people may have the concessionary bus pass but there's | :33:18. | :33:20. | |
no bus on which to use it. That is not a good deal anyone. Nobody have | :33:21. | :33:27. | |
national strategies for road and rail and were told the cycling and | :33:28. | :33:30. | |
walking investment strategy is imminent. Buses are being singled | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
out within the transport family. The new clause one would reduce that in | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
the bring buses in line with other modes of transport. We also believe | :33:40. | :33:43. | |
government needs to do more to support young people at afford the | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
cost of bus travel. That why we're asking for the government to include | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
as part of a national strategy consideration of a young person's | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
concessionary fare scheme. Young people now have two stay in school | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
or training until they're 18 and many use buses to get there. We | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
think is quite right that the government look at how to reduce the | :34:06. | :34:07. | |
financial burden on those young people who are only trying to get to | :34:08. | :34:11. | |
their school, job or apprenticeship. While some local authorities still | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
provide concessionary fares for young people, many not. Local | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
government is already under huge financial pressure and hence the cut | :34:20. | :34:25. | |
to supported bus woods and services that the campaign identified. | :34:26. | :34:27. | |
Unfortunately the number of local authorities able to provide a path | :34:28. | :34:34. | |
has dropped from 29 to just 16 since 2010. So we want the government to | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
publish a national strategy for buses and good in that proper | :34:39. | :34:42. | |
consideration of a concessionary scheme for young people. | :34:43. | :35:05. | |
Can I tell my right honourable friend, young people in Greater | :35:06. | :35:09. | |
Manchester have told me that it's cheaper for them, for four of them, | :35:10. | :35:13. | |
to get an Uber than it is to travel on buses in Greater Manchester | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
sometimes given the cost of travel. How on earth can that possibly make | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
sense and how on earth can that lead to anything other than complete | :35:22. | :35:28. | |
gridlock on our roads? My right honourable friend is right. | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
We need a second reading. A number of cases across the country | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
experience this, to travel locally, it's bad for congestion and | :35:39. | :35:40. | |
employment and bad for social justice. Mr Speaker, the way buses | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
are funded in this country is clearly not working. We need to see | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
a proper Governmental strategy to address these funding issues and | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
allow the country to have the national conversation about buses | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
that is long overdue and much-needed. I therefore urge the | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
Government to accept our new clause one and I perhaps could helpfully | :36:00. | :36:03. | |
suggest later in the discussion we'll press that to a division. | :36:04. | :36:07. | |
Thank you. New clause one, national strategy. | :36:08. | :36:11. | |
THE SPEAKER: The question is that new clause one be read a second | :36:12. | :36:15. | |
time. Maria Miller? Thank you, Mr Speaker. New clause one calls for a | :36:16. | :36:20. | |
national strategy that sets out various targets and objectives and I | :36:21. | :36:24. | |
feel sure that the honourable gentleman speaking for the | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
opposition may see one of those targets as being the need for | :36:27. | :36:33. | |
accessible for all when it comes to buses -- accessibility. I understand | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
the Government's already considered this particular issue in committee | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
and I feel sure they'll have very valid reasons for not going forward | :36:41. | :36:43. | |
with a national strategy. I think the honourable gentleman does read a | :36:44. | :36:46. | |
number of important issues by tabling this new clause which I just | :36:47. | :36:52. | |
would like to touch on very briefly. Particularly the need for some | :36:53. | :36:56. | |
consistency when it comes to certain issues and I do, Mr Speaker, welcome | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
the Government's amendment to their own Bill with regards to the | :37:01. | :37:03. | |
information for bus passengers. I think this's something that will | :37:04. | :37:07. | |
help all of our constituents and I would particularly like to note the | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
constituents that have contacted me on the importance of having | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
information available for passengers when they're on buses about the | :37:15. | :37:18. | |
routes that they're taking, something that's not only important | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
perhaps for partially sighted or blind passengers, but also for my | :37:23. | :37:30. | |
constituent who contacted me who has autism and special needs, that won't | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
particularly help that individual as well as a broader group. As Baroness | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
Campbell pointed out in the other place when this Bill was debated, | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
there are other issues which are also nationally important to people | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
who use buses that might I think fall under the national strategy the | :37:51. | :37:52. | |
honourable gentleman's talking about. Perhaps around wheelchair | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
priorities or access policies more generally. In terms of wheelchair | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
priority, comments made by the Government when this was discussed | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
in committee, I think a very heartening Mr Speaker, the setting | :38:08. | :38:14. | |
up of an advisory committee following the Pooly case is very | :38:15. | :38:21. | |
important. It's important to confirm whether he's thought about the | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
composition of that group. Does he intend to involve the Equality and | :38:26. | :38:27. | |
Human Rights Commission in that group? I think very important that | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
he'd consider that carefully, Mr Speaker. Also the disabled people's | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
transport advisory, the minister when he spoke about this in | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
committee didn't touch upon that detail, perhaps it hadn't been all | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
worked through at that stage. But perhaps the minister could take the | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
opportunity about this debate today to assure us of the discussions that | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
he's had subsequent to that committee debate. I'll give way to | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
the honourable lady in a moment. And perhaps he can assure the House that | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
the discussions that are had as part of that advisory group will be acted | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
upon and acted upon quickly and that all of the relevant people will be | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
involved. I give way to the honourable lady. | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
I thank the honourable lady for giving way. Does she agree that the | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
message she's now discussing is part of the national strategy would give | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
bus services to status that they deserve and recognise the fact so | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
many more people actually travel on buses and have bus journeys than | :39:30. | :39:33. | |
they do on trains which are more widely recognised in national | :39:34. | :39:36. | |
policy-making. I think the honourable lady makes an | :39:37. | :39:38. | |
interestings point about the difference between the way trains | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
and buses are treated and whilst I don't necessarily agree that there's | :39:44. | :39:47. | |
a need for a national strategy to put them on in terms of parity, I do | :39:48. | :39:52. | |
think that the point she raises is important, there shouldn't be undue | :39:53. | :39:56. | |
differences in the way that we treat bus operators and train operators, | :39:57. | :40:00. | |
particularly when it comes to disability issues. I'll just perhaps | :40:01. | :40:04. | |
take that point one stage further before I finish, Mr Speaker. As my | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
Noble Friend, the Baroness Campbell said when this Bill was also | :40:09. | :40:12. | |
discussed in the other place, there is a need for an accessibility | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
policy which has teeth, Mr Speaker, to ensure that it's effective. There | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
is, as the honourable lady's just said, a real contrast between the | :40:22. | :40:25. | |
way the Government treats buses and trains when it comes to disability | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
access and the conditions of licences for those that operate | :40:31. | :40:35. | |
these important Public Services. It's a condition of a train | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
operator's licence that they have to comply with disabled people's | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
protections policy and have one in place and state how they'll protect | :40:45. | :40:48. | |
the interests of disabled customers which is enforceable not only by the | :40:49. | :40:52. | |
regulator but it has fines associated with it if there is a | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
lack of compliance. So why is it not the case for bus operators that | :40:58. | :41:03. | |
perhaps in the absence of a national strategy that there could be a | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
condition put in place to make sure that there are such provisions for | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
bus operators that disabled passengers who use buses for whom | :41:11. | :41:13. | |
there'll be an important way of getting about to work, to social | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
engagements and to be part of the community that such provisions are | :41:19. | :41:22. | |
also put in place for bus operators, so that we ensure there is parity | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
between the way train operators support people and train operators | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
support people, disabled people. Of course I'mth I'll give way. The | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
distinction she's making between buses and trains is an interesting | :41:38. | :41:43. | |
one, but surely the point here is that the policy initiatives that the | :41:44. | :41:48. | |
Government can take, like access for dis disabled people don't mean a | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
national strategy is going to take away from the requirements of a | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
local strategy which is what the buses are based on. I thank | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
manufacture for his intervention and I'm not arguing against having local | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
strategies, but there appear to be a number of issues which have national | :42:10. | :42:16. | |
resonance when it comes to the provision of services. The | :42:17. | :42:19. | |
Government has themselves identified this through the provisions they've | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
put into their own Bill around the information that's available to bus | :42:25. | :42:27. | |
passengers whilst they're on buseses. That's nationally | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
applicable. So I'm simply asking the minister today if he could confirm | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
to the House what further thoughts he's given to making sure that what | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
is good enough for train operators is also good enough for bus | :42:43. | :42:45. | |
operators when it comes to disability access. | :42:46. | :42:56. | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker... Sorry, I apologise. What a terrible | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
mistake! I did not mean to demote you, Mr Speaker. | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
I do apologise. I rise to support this amendment. | :43:07. | :43:14. | |
And to reflect on the fact that in the Bill committee on this issue, | :43:15. | :43:21. | |
there was a huge amount of consensus from both sides. We were divided on | :43:22. | :43:27. | |
a number of issues, but it was a relaxed committee and the minister | :43:28. | :43:33. | |
gave reasoned answers. I think that represents a change in... That's a | :43:34. | :43:40. | |
first! I think that represents a change in attitude towards buses so | :43:41. | :43:45. | |
that this Bill is the first step towards it, it's a Bill that was | :43:46. | :43:49. | |
brought about following negotiations between the then Chancellor of the | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
Exchequer and different metropolitan areas that came to a deal that if | :43:55. | :44:00. | |
they had elected Marys, they could then sort out the buses. I hope it's | :44:01. | :44:06. | |
the first step, Mr Speaker and what I would ask the minister to do is | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
reflect on this because I think it's a developing situation. The new | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
Prime Minister's brought in an industrial strategy. We have a | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
strategy, as has just been mentioned, on the railways. We have | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
a strategy for aviation. It is difficult to think, and quite | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
rightly so, of areas where we spend large amounts of public money where | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
it is not the responsibility and the right of the Government Anderlechted | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
representatives to define -- and elected representatives to define | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
the objectives of what that money should provide. Of course I'll give | :44:47. | :44:54. | |
way. He mentioned just before a connection between directly elected | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
mayors and bus deregulation. Does he see a sensible connection between | :44:59. | :45:00. | |
the two or why the two should go hand in hand? | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
I see that it was a pragmatic decision taken by the then | :45:06. | :45:11. | |
Chancellor and the combined authorities in the metropolitan | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
areas, but obviously it isn't a rational basis to decide to have a | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
different bus system in Greater Manchester than in Southampton - | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
what would be the rationale there? There clearly isn't one. The point I | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
was making, that now is the time, having made that first accept, not | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
in a consistent way, but in a sensible way in the Metropolitan | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
areas, to look for a strategy and to get rid of what really is a relic of | :45:42. | :45:52. | |
ideological Thatcherism from the early 1980s, in the 1985 Transport | :45:53. | :45:58. | |
Act which deregulated the buses. Because the absence of a strategy in | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
actual fact is saying that we don't care - I don't know how many | :46:04. | :46:11. | |
billions of pounds have gone into the bus industry since 1986 when the | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
bus act came into force - but I would think it's a large chunk | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
without any policy direction whatsoever given to how that money | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
is being spent. So what we have been left with is a rather sterile debate | :46:28. | :46:34. | |
where one side says well buses are declining and they would have | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
descliened anyway over this period -- declined anyway over this period. | :46:39. | :46:42. | |
Well, those of us who think that dechain was not necessary have said, | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
actually if we had not on-road competition which has failed, if we | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
had the competition at tender stage and actually decided what services | :46:56. | :46:58. | |
we wanted and what bus fares would be charged, we'd not have lost as | :46:59. | :47:04. | |
many bus routes, we'd not have lost as many bus passengers as we have | :47:05. | :47:09. | |
done. Not to have a strategy is actually saying, over the last 31 | :47:10. | :47:16. | |
years, that it doesn't matter that two thirds of bus passengers have | :47:17. | :47:20. | |
disappeared in Greater Manchester and bus fares have gone up by | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
considerably higher than the rate of inflation. It does matter. As the | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
honourable lady said, and my right honourable friend on the frontbench | :47:32. | :47:37. | |
has said, the vast majority of the people we represent, particularly | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
poorer people, people who don't have access to a car, rely on buses to | :47:42. | :47:48. | |
get to work, to get to hospitals, to see relatives at weekends, which | :47:49. | :47:53. | |
after deregulation often those bus routes and buses don't exist. How | :47:54. | :47:57. | |
can we not have a strategy? How can we abandon... Of course. Thank you, | :47:58. | :48:04. | |
Mr Speaker. I think one of the other things about a strategy to follow on | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
is the need for making sure that we have better records on bus safety | :48:09. | :48:15. | |
and I would ask the minister to actually look again at what | :48:16. | :48:20. | |
record-keeping we have. Of course we publish the killed and seriously | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
injured figures, but actually there are a large number of other injuries | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
on buses caused by buses, particularly obviously I can only | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
speak from a London experience and I think it would be really helpful | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
when putting together our overall plans for transport that we do think | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
of some way of both recording both the minor and major incidents in | :48:43. | :48:46. | |
order that we can give everybody insurance or assurance needed on the | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
safety of buses. The honourable lady makes a | :48:51. | :48:57. | |
pertinent point on this issue. But of course, a buses strategy would | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
cover all those issues from personal safety to disabled access to fares, | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
to where buses were running. I think both from the experience in the | :49:09. | :49:13. | |
committee and the interventions and speech made from the opposite | :49:14. | :49:18. | |
benches both here today and in the committee, it is clear that that is | :49:19. | :49:24. | |
where the centre of the views of this House lie. | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
I think that will be the direction even if this amendment is not | :49:31. | :49:37. | |
accepted now. I want to finish on this point. There will be a | :49:38. | :49:46. | |
bare-knuckle fight in this because it is not just about having a | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
rational look at how best it is to provide bus services. Because there | :49:53. | :49:57. | |
has been no accountability of that money, a small number of people who | :49:58. | :50:05. | |
have set up more or less monopoly situations in our great conurbations | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
have made a huge amount of money. Have become the owners of, the | :50:10. | :50:17. | |
owners of stage coach had become billionaires. I'm not against people | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
who make a profit, I'm not against people who innovate. But I am | :50:24. | :50:34. | |
against people who are parasitic on public money without the people | :50:35. | :50:36. | |
whose responsibility it is to look after that public money is saying | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
what should happen. So this amendment may well not be accepted | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
today but I think in the fairly near future, as this bill becomes an act | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
and the benefits of regulation are seen that we will move to regulation | :50:53. | :50:58. | |
throughout the country. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. He | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
makes an important point. Duffy recalled that the transport select | :51:03. | :51:09. | |
committee over three parliaments has investigated bus deregulation on | :51:10. | :51:14. | |
five occasions and De Ceglie this reinforces the case is making that | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
fundamental reform starting with the bill we have today is what is | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
required. I do indeed recall the times and the effort spent with my | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
honourable friend on those reports. And they show that competition does | :51:31. | :51:36. | |
not take place, that is amiss and we have left the public purse | :51:37. | :51:40. | |
vulnerable to parasites like Brian Souter who have taken the money out | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
of the public purse while they have been putting up prices and reducing | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
the service. So that is going to be a rearguard resistance from those | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
people who have benefited from the system. But as parliamentarians and | :51:53. | :51:59. | |
people who have a duty to look after taxes, we should move towards the | :52:00. | :52:03. | |
consensus I believe there is an espoused to having a bath strategy. | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
After all we have strategies all the rest of the way through the | :52:09. | :52:21. | |
transport system. I also sat on the bus Bill committee and I was pleased | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
to make a contribution in what was very much a consensual discussion | :52:26. | :52:30. | |
and well piloted through by the Minister. I was also grateful to him | :52:31. | :52:35. | |
for sending through a double-decker chocolate bar through the internal | :52:36. | :52:40. | |
mail! Sadly due to the mail system it looked more like a Bentley bus by | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
the time it was opened. With respect to new clause number one, there is | :52:46. | :52:50. | |
much within that which is attractive. The 1.I would make with | :52:51. | :52:56. | |
respect to the strategy is that with the newly improved local data | :52:57. | :53:02. | |
requirements through this bill, it should be possible to fix that | :53:03. | :53:06. | |
strategy on a local basis rather than needing some form of government | :53:07. | :53:10. | |
top-down approach. In a way the essence of the bill is to bring in | :53:11. | :53:19. | |
more localism. His right honourable friend made an important point that | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
a national strategy or consistency would help disabled people who may | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
travel to a different part of the country and not know what to expect | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
in terms of the public transport system. Basic minimum standards in | :53:31. | :53:34. | |
areas like disability access or ticketing would be really helpful to | :53:35. | :53:39. | |
people as they travel across the country and use different public | :53:40. | :53:43. | |
transport systems. I can certainly can see the attraction of that but I | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
think there was a danger that if there is a feeling from local | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
authorities that government will deliver the strategy then local | :53:51. | :53:53. | |
authorities do not put anything perhaps in place themselves. The | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
other mechanism through the bill is that it will make it easier for | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
local authorities to get more involved in the policy of how this | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
bill will be implemented, how partnerships should operate. So I | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
would state that rather than talking about a national strategy, the bill | :54:10. | :54:12. | |
has some excellent points that should assist the strategy at local | :54:13. | :54:22. | |
level. Where I really want... I can understand the point is making and | :54:23. | :54:25. | |
have a huge amount of sympathy for wanting to make sure we have a local | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
approach to services. Does he agree with me that we need to make sure | :54:30. | :54:37. | |
that the law through the equality act has more teeth that individuals | :54:38. | :54:41. | |
are able to make the law work for them when they encounter problems | :54:42. | :54:43. | |
like discrimination against them because of their disability. My | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
right honourable friend is correct indeed. Perhaps the laws do need to | :54:48. | :54:56. | |
be tightened up. So I agree with the point she has made. Moving to | :54:57. | :55:06. | |
subsection number two... We only discussing new clause number one, | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
two and three in this group. I think the causes that he wants to speak | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
on, 16 and onwards, are in the next group. So he could think about those | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
when the next group comes up. Thank you for your guidance. I was | :55:22. | :55:27. | |
referring to subsection two of you", the reduced their concessionary | :55:28. | :55:35. | |
scheme for those aged 16 to 19. With respect to the falls, in terms of | :55:36. | :55:44. | |
considering this scheme, I see the advantages. -- this clause. I serve | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
rural constituency where it is difficult for young people in | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
particular to travel by bus. I also would like to extend the point that | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
in my view this relates to our desire to increase social mobility. | :55:58. | :56:02. | |
If we cannot have young people accessing work perhaps at weekends | :56:03. | :56:05. | |
because it is too far for them to travel, they cannot afford motor | :56:06. | :56:08. | |
insurance premiums which we know are incredibly expensive, then there's | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
something to be said for a lack of social mobility. So I am attracted | :56:14. | :56:17. | |
to the idea that this should be looked at. Of course we need to make | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
sure that we cost those measures up and that is a matter of that would | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
give me concern. If we increase the national debt with policies like | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
this it would have a negative impact on young people as they are the ones | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
likely to be paying it back in the future generations. Perhaps one | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
consideration could be the overall cost of concessionary travel. And | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
whether it is time for concessionary travel perhaps for those aged over | :56:42. | :56:46. | |
65 to be given purely to those who really cannot afford it. So more | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
looking at means testing than perhaps giving concessions to those | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
who can well afford it. And perhaps therefore would like to share that | :56:55. | :56:59. | |
benefit over to the 16 to 19-year-olds who after all are | :57:00. | :57:04. | |
required to stay in education and training and therefore need some | :57:05. | :57:12. | |
assistance. Does he accept it may not be necessary to just throw money | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
at this, the powers in this bill could be used cleverly to extract | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
value for instance if longer term franchises were given to bus | :57:21. | :57:24. | |
operators, on condition, they could then give free travel to those aged | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
16 to 18 because then if they become regular bus users the bus operators | :57:30. | :57:34. | |
would capture the upside of that. So this could be done cleverly if more | :57:35. | :57:41. | |
areas were given the ability to use these powers. That is absolutely | :57:42. | :57:44. | |
right and anything that can be done to get young people onto the buses | :57:45. | :57:48. | |
and stay on them as much to lend itself to. I'm also conscious this | :57:49. | :57:53. | |
sub clause talks about consideration of a reduced fare. So indeed perhaps | :57:54. | :58:01. | |
a mission for government should be that money that can be saved or | :58:02. | :58:04. | |
perhaps reinvested will actually go towards this measure which I believe | :58:05. | :58:08. | |
would help young people and help social mobility. I rise in support | :58:09. | :58:15. | |
of the amendment in my name, new clause number two and three and also | :58:16. | :58:19. | |
in support of new clause number one. Both the amendments I brought | :58:20. | :58:23. | |
forward are basically about coherence. Neither is about | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
dictation to local authorities as was mischievously suggested during | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
the second reading of the bill. I'm not trying to dictate to local | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
authorities what they should do. Both of them are about concessionary | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
travel for young people which has been a thorny issue throughout the | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
whole process of the bill. So far as young people are concerned, the | :58:47. | :58:54. | |
situation is both variable and actually worsening. Since 2008 | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
50,016 to 18-year-olds had free transport withdrawn. I think a 42% | :59:00. | :59:06. | |
drop. Two thirds of local authorities no longer provide free | :59:07. | :59:12. | |
transport to 16 to 18-year-olds. And bus passes for 16 to 18-year-olds | :59:13. | :59:18. | |
are incredibly variable across the country, ranging from under ?30 to | :59:19. | :59:26. | |
over ?1000. Transport authorities used to offer wide concessions but | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
the number has also dropped since 2010 from 29 concessionary | :59:33. | :59:39. | |
authorities down to 16. And ten authorities have no arrangements at | :59:40. | :59:43. | |
all. That benefit the older age groups. Including that those that | :59:44. | :59:52. | |
offer no concessionary fare for young people, Cheshire West, | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
Lincolnshire, Nottingham, Bracknell Forest, Portsmouth, and Slough. So | :59:58. | :00:03. | |
the situation is scarcely good. And the impact is fairly obvious. Impact | :00:04. | :00:13. | |
on educational progress, according to the Association of colleges, one | :00:14. | :00:18. | |
fifth of students would consider dropping out during the course | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
because of transport costs. Or transport difficulties if the cost | :00:22. | :00:26. | |
is not foremost in their minds. There is an impact on students, and | :00:27. | :00:32. | |
NUS survey showed further education students, two thirds of them paid | :00:33. | :00:34. | |
more than ?30 a week which is a lot more than ?30 a week which is a lot | :00:35. | :00:38. | |
of money for a young person. There is a clear impact on traffic | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
congestion and pollution, the honourable member mentioned that, as | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
more young people try to get cars may be earlier than they should or | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
rely on other forms of transport affecting congestion at all the | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
wrong times in most towns. And there is clearly a choice on educational | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
choice. I would emphasise the point made by the honourable member that | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
the worst affected are people in rural areas by students generally. | :01:05. | :01:11. | |
They are the worst affected. And within the system there are clear | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
anomalies that need to be cleared up because we raised the age for | :01:17. | :01:20. | |
compulsory education but local authority obligations on transport | :01:21. | :01:24. | |
remain very much as they wear. I agree with everything he is saying, | :01:25. | :01:28. | |
pointing out the withdrawal of concessionary support for young | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
people. But would you concede that the withdrawal of the Education | :01:34. | :01:37. | |
Maintenance Allowance under the coalition government made these | :01:38. | :01:39. | |
problems a lot worse for young people. Well that Education | :01:40. | :01:51. | |
Maintenance Allowance was in my notes but for some reason I did not | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
mention it there. I dare say it was a factor. The other anomaly in the | :01:56. | :02:05. | |
system is that we all recognise we have academic roots, | :02:06. | :02:13. | |
apprenticeships, but apprentices do not really get a look in. Those aged | :02:14. | :02:22. | |
between 16 and 18 get about ?4 minimum wage. And clearly we want to | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
make the apprenticeship route even more attractive. There is some | :02:27. | :02:31. | |
evidence that where schemes are deduced they are successful. The my | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
ticket scheme in Liverpool city region anecdotally is supposed to | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
improve attendance quite appreciably. And developing | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
transport in line with the apprenticeship system is very much | :02:45. | :02:48. | |
part of the city region agenda touched upon by the honourable | :02:49. | :02:54. | |
member for Manchester. So my amendment is trying to achieve | :02:55. | :02:59. | |
something relatively modest. It does not really change the character of | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
the bill which broadly speaking I support. Basically the amendments | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
are trying to urge local authorities, to oblige them ready to | :03:10. | :03:17. | |
take a broader view of the impact of transport policy in the wider | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
environmental and educational sense. Does he share my concern that | :03:25. | :03:28. | |
actually one this government is cutting and usually the funding for | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
local authorities, even where they want to provide concessionary fare | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
is, in many cases they're being forced to withdraw them and | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
certainly that was evidence we heard from Texas who said they are getting | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
to the point in the north-east word much as they would like to support | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
young people, they got to the point where they felt they would no longer | :03:48. | :03:54. | |
be able to do so. Desperate times call for desperate remedies and most | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
local authorities are in a desperate situation at the moment. | :03:58. | :04:02. | |
friend, The government will accept there is a case for joined up policy | :04:03. | :04:09. | |
and the government needs to link up the apprentice ship agenda with | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
real-time transport problems and impacts. That is where new clause 2 | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
comes into its own and if I'm supported, I would be happy to move | :04:22. | :04:29. | |
that to a vote. Unless the minister can assure me these things are | :04:30. | :04:33. | |
within his frame of reference at the moment. Thank you. It will be useful | :04:34. | :04:40. | |
for me to cover all of these in one hope any detailed set of replies. | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
New clause 1 requires the Secretary of State to develop and publish a | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
national bus strategy. We discussed this is in committee. Glad it was | :04:54. | :04:56. | |
considered reasonable and helpful. Also for the consideration of a | :04:57. | :05:03. | |
reduced fare scheme for young people aged 16 to 19. New clause 2 requires | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
the Secretary of State to publish a report setting out steps to support | :05:09. | :05:14. | |
local transport authorities to provide concessionary travel to | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
apprentices aged 16 to 18. Well the Government fully appreciates the | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
importance of public transport for young people, particularly those | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
living in more isolated areas. We also recognise that the cost of | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
transport can be an issue for some young people, including those taking | :05:33. | :05:44. | |
part in apprentice ships. One reason for the intro-- introduction of this | :05:45. | :05:50. | |
was to support young who need help with education and training costs | :05:51. | :05:55. | |
and evaluation showed nearly 400,000 young people were being supported. | :05:56. | :06:02. | |
The statutory responsibility for transport to education and training | :06:03. | :06:05. | |
rests with local authorities. This enables them to make decisions that | :06:06. | :06:10. | |
best match local circumstances, with many authorities and operators | :06:11. | :06:14. | |
already offering discounts for passengers in this age group. Both | :06:15. | :06:22. | |
of thesish use relates -- these Esh use relate to funding. This bill is | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
not about funding, but providing with new tools to help improve their | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
services in the way that best suits their areas. As part of spending | :06:32. | :06:38. | |
review my department is protecting the bus service operator's grant at | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
current levels for the period to 2021. This provides security of | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
funding for services without the strategy the member proposes. This | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
funding is provided to local authorities and to bus operators, it | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
is not broken into category of service or by route. Attempting to | :06:58. | :07:04. | |
do this would be a burdensome exercise that could embroiling | :07:05. | :07:08. | |
central Government in the fine detail of local provision. That is | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
the at the heart of the question about a national strategy. It is | :07:12. | :07:19. | |
about local services, not about a national plan. Bus are local by | :07:20. | :07:23. | |
definition and that is why we are seeking to support local councils | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
with more powers. So a national plan isn't the answer, more powers for | :07:30. | :07:34. | |
local authorities is part of answer. That is what this bill does. I think | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
one of the things we disagreed on during the committee is what should | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
be determined locally and what should be determined nationally. | :07:45. | :07:47. | |
That was one of the few disagreements. Doesn't he think when | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
the Government is spending billions per year on bus services, that they | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
should have an interest in saying that there should be more bus | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
passengers, more bus miles, and an interest in what the fares should be | :08:03. | :08:11. | |
what. Is the difference between buses and trains in this respect? | :08:12. | :08:17. | |
Well, I'm happy to agree that butses are a critical part of - buses are a | :08:18. | :08:22. | |
critical part of any local transport mix. I'm a great champion of bus | :08:23. | :08:32. | |
travel that. That was clear Mus my work. Through my work. I made the | :08:33. | :08:39. | |
joke one of the great truths of business is that I'm from head | :08:40. | :08:43. | |
office, I'm here to help. I was going on to say that actually I | :08:44. | :08:49. | |
often was that person from head office and it often wasn't so | :08:50. | :08:54. | |
welcome. This should be about local transport needs, not a national | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
strategy. Is the Government neutral? No, that is why we have brought | :09:00. | :09:06. | |
forward a bill and have protected the bus service operator's grant. | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
But this about local authorities working with bus oeptors to deliver | :09:10. | :09:13. | |
-- operators to deliver the right services for their areas. If it is | :09:14. | :09:22. | |
about local decisions, why then will he not devolve the bus service | :09:23. | :09:27. | |
operators grants to local authorities. Some of the grant is | :09:28. | :09:38. | |
already deinvolved. Volved. The key reason it goes directly to bus | :09:39. | :09:47. | |
operators and they operate routes that cross council boundaries. | :09:48. | :09:50. | |
Transport to work is nothing to do with a local authority's geography. | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
So it would be I think a potential bureaucratic nightmare to change the | :09:56. | :09:58. | |
system now. Having said that, we are looking at how we can reform the | :09:59. | :10:10. | |
operation. It pays a flat 34. 357 pence per litre in subsidy. That it | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
is why it was called the fuel duty rebate. We are looking how we can | :10:17. | :10:23. | |
incentivise better practice. I will give way to the honourable lady and | :10:24. | :10:29. | |
then they think. The honourable gentleman. It feels as if he is | :10:30. | :10:33. | |
trying to devolve all responsibility for the state of our bus services, | :10:34. | :10:39. | |
in the 2015 local Government settled it was announced Government funding | :10:40. | :10:44. | |
to local authorities will fall by 24%. That is part of why local | :10:45. | :10:48. | |
authorities support for bus is falling. Does he not take any | :10:49. | :10:52. | |
responsibility for the impact that is having on bus services and | :10:53. | :10:59. | |
people's ability to use the buss? Of course I recognise that the | :11:00. | :11:02. | |
pressures on local government finance are acute and I was in | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
charge of a local government financial affairs and my local | :11:08. | :11:14. | |
council throughout the financial crash in 2008/9. So I'm aware of | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
that. But that doesn't change the requirement to recognise this is a | :11:20. | :11:22. | |
local service and should be determined locally. Hasn't my | :11:23. | :11:32. | |
honourable friend just exposed a major contradiction here, he is | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
saying he wants local delivery, but when it comes to cross border issues | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
he said Whitehall knows best. The position should be for maximum | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
devolution. I'm not saying white hall knows best, but the grant is | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
best delivered to operators running those services. And then taking it | :11:54. | :12:00. | |
from there. So it is not a question of white hall knows best. We are | :12:01. | :12:04. | |
keen to see more support for buses and more routes available. The way | :12:05. | :12:15. | |
to achieve long-term sub stainable growth is to have more passengers. | :12:16. | :12:21. | |
My honourable friend raised the issue of the case that went through | :12:22. | :12:27. | |
the legal system and took five years to reach a High Court. Well, | :12:28. | :12:34. | |
specifically, we are going to be inviting the equalities and human | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
rights commission to attend our working group meetings. We have got | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
some progress made here. What we are seeking to do is have a small | :12:44. | :12:49. | |
working group that will look at the practical implication of the Paulie | :12:50. | :12:55. | |
case. The members invited are the disabled person's transport advisory | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
committee, to hear the voice of disabled group. We also want the | :13:01. | :13:10. | |
voice of bus operate. We want the voice of passengers and Transport | :13:11. | :13:13. | |
Focus have been invited. I would hope me will see the equalities and | :13:14. | :13:23. | |
human rights commission. In terms of timing, I would hope we would get | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
this under way next month. Could I take him back with regards to the | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
cross border issues. Even in areas which don't have landscape drawn out | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
for elected mayors, local authorities have for the last three | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
decades been working in partnership with each other. And I just don't | :13:51. | :13:56. | |
understand the point that the minister's making about devolving | :13:57. | :13:59. | |
that to the bus company and not to group of local authorities who work | :14:00. | :14:08. | |
in travel to work areas. Well, the devolution of this funding goes | :14:09. | :14:12. | |
straight to local authority bus companies. We are looking to see how | :14:13. | :14:16. | |
we can reform this and I will take the honourable gentleman's point ps | :14:17. | :14:19. | |
as a sort of contributory suggestion within that. But I don't want to | :14:20. | :14:25. | |
make a change to this system, unless we are clear it is going to keep | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
more routes operational. We have no guarantee unless we ring fence the | :14:30. | :14:34. | |
funding that if we grant devolution of this to a local authority that it | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
will be used to support buses. It could go into other forms of | :14:40. | :14:43. | |
transport. I want to keep this focussed on buses. But I will take | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
his point further as we think about how to take this forward. If I may | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
just answer my honourable friend's questions more fully here. This | :14:53. | :14:59. | |
needs to be a work group, which is action-orientated. The High Court | :15:00. | :15:06. | |
encountered practical challenges in dealing with disabled access. We | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
need to get the balance right and have space for this space which is | :15:11. | :15:18. | |
used for wheelchairs could be used for parents with children who need | :15:19. | :15:21. | |
assistance. I want to protect everyone's needs here. The issue of | :15:22. | :15:31. | |
disabled transport plans, these are important in providing confidence | :15:32. | :15:35. | |
and consistency for disabled people to use transport and I have much | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
sympathy with the underlying reason behind my colleague's suggestion | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
here. We are going to take forward a recommendation in the guidance | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
supporting the bill that authorities ensure information is made available | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
to passengers and that might be in a form of provided by the authority or | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
by individual operators. We have been working on this again with an | :15:58. | :16:05. | |
organisation who have developed a template. So I expect us to make | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
some progress in this area that will assist my honourable friend. Do you | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
want me? She does. Can I welcome the minister's clarification on that | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
point with regard to the guidance being made available to passengers. | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
Could I gently remind him when it cops to rail passengers, there is | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
not only a regulator breathing down the neck of providers, but there are | :16:31. | :16:37. | |
fines for not compliance. How can he give this real teeth? My honourable | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
friend makes a very interesting point, but I'm not sure there is a | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
read across from rail into buses. There are 30 or so rail companies, | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
there are a thousand plus bus companies. So we need to have | :16:54. | :16:59. | |
something that is proportionate. For the larger groups it could be | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
appropriate. For the smaller companies, something more as we are | :17:05. | :17:10. | |
suggesting would be clearly more appropriate to provide information | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
to disabled passengers that is our joint objective here. If I may turn | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
to clause 3, which was tabled by the member for South port. This requires | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
local authority s who do not provide a concessionary scheme for 18 to | :17:28. | :17:31. | |
16-year-olds in education to produce a report. This report would set out | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
the impact on this group of young people and on local traffic of not | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
providing such a scheme. As I have said, the legal responsibility for | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
transport to education and training for 16 to 19-year-olds rests with | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
local authorities. Who are free to put in place appropriate | :17:50. | :17:51. | |
arrangements. These arrangements don't have to be free, but we expect | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
authorities to make reasonable decisions based on the | :17:58. | :18:01. | |
infrastructure and their available resources. Local authorities already | :18:02. | :18:10. | |
have a duty under the education Act to publish a transport policy each | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
year and the arrangelets for young people -- arrangements for young | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
people. The effect of this would be to replicate this duty. So in short, | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
I do not believe clauses 1, 2 and 3 will add anything of value to the | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
delivery of a bus service on a local service or benefit passengers. I | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
hope the members will not press their new amendments. Thank you. Can | :18:36. | :18:44. | |
I say that I think again this has been a constructive exchange and I | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
think particularly the points around disabled access are welcome and will | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
be pursued. Much like in committee, much of the discussion has hinged on | :18:54. | :18:58. | |
the issues of localism. And my honourable friend made the points | :18:59. | :19:03. | |
very well as did my honourable friend for Leigh in terms of what we | :19:04. | :19:06. | |
see as many see as the failures of systems is over the last 30 years. | :19:07. | :19:15. | |
In committee we discussed the values of a national framework. And | :19:16. | :19:22. | |
listening closely to contributions from the other side I did not hear a | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
large amount of opposition to that. In fact many contributions suggested | :19:28. | :19:31. | |
they could also see the benefits. But the minister stuck to the script | :19:32. | :19:35. | |
heroically and clearly does not wish to go down that route at the moment. | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
Although I have to say as we come to in future discussed the way funding | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
for the bus services, whether concessionary fares or the operators | :19:45. | :19:49. | |
grants, clearly there is a debate to be had. And that would seem... .Ca | :19:50. | :19:59. | |
agree with me that it would be helpful to have that national | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
discussion, not only involving passengers but also the industry and | :20:04. | :20:06. | |
local authorities about what is the most sustainable way to fund the | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
buses. And ask local authorities, as they develop different emissions | :20:12. | :20:17. | |
standards, as the campaign for better transport said, a national | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
strategy would provide some certainty for the UK bus vehicle | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
manufacturers as well. There are many advantages to doing this. As | :20:27. | :20:32. | |
always my honourable friend is right and she has raised a very important | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
issue of air quality which clearly is becoming more important in many | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
cities across the country. I would suggest that the government is | :20:42. | :20:48. | |
having a national framework, that might be helpful for many reasons. I | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
fear this issue will not be resolved and so we will be pressing for | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
division from our side. The question is that new clause one he read a | :20:59. | :21:06. | |
second time. As many as are of that opinion said aye. Division, clear | :21:07. | :21:08. | |
the lobby. The question is that new clause one | :21:09. | :22:29. | |
B read a second time. The term... The noes to the left | :22:30. | :33:38. | |
278. The eyes to write 193. So the noes | :33:39. | :33:49. | |
have it. The noes have it. Unlock. Doctor John Pugh, the question is | :33:50. | :33:55. | |
that new clause number to be read a second time. As many as are of that | :33:56. | :34:04. | |
opinion say aye. Add to the contrary know. Division. Clear the lobby. | :34:05. | :35:39. | |
To be read a second time. As many of that opinion say aye. Of the | :35:40. | :35:46. | |
contrino. Order. Order. The ayes to the right, | :35:47. | :44:57. | |
193. The noes to the left 277. The ayes to the Wright were 193 the noes | :44:58. | :45:08. | |
277. The noes have it. Unlock. We now come to new clause 4 with which | :45:09. | :45:12. | |
it will be convenient to consider the amendments listed on the | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
selection paper. Who moves to move new clause 4. Could I move new | :45:19. | :45:28. | |
clause 4 and amendments, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12 and 13. Could I also | :45:29. | :45:34. | |
declare an interest in as much as that I am chair of RMT Parliamentary | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
group and vice chair of Unite Parliamentary group. Both of which | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
unions have members in the bus industry. Madam Deputy Speaker, the | :45:47. | :45:59. | |
transport sector is a safety critical environment and the sector | :46:00. | :46:05. | |
involves carriages travelling at speed, individuals working long | :46:06. | :46:11. | |
hours on repep it the it is a -- repetitive tasks. And hard lessons | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
have been learned following a series of fatal road and rail crashes in | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
the 80s and 90s, continuing financial pressures, declining | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
support from government through the bus operator's grant and the | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
commercially orientated initiatives to reduce staff could also threaten | :46:35. | :46:41. | |
safe working practices and bus drivers are aware of where corners | :46:42. | :46:45. | |
are being cut. In theory they can use the whistle blowing policies to | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
speak out, but in practice, workers that do so are frequently subject to | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
all sorts of pressure and have been known to be dismissed for whistle | :46:56. | :47:02. | |
blowing. This leads to a situation where serious safety failings are | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
ignored and not investigated adequately or the results are not | :47:07. | :47:15. | |
acted upon by the bus companies. So to counter this dysfunction a | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
confidential reporting system was introduced, this system has been | :47:21. | :47:24. | |
successful in enabling workers to have their concerns ventilated. | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
Resulting in lessons being learned and accumulation of failings being | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
halted with serious harm prevented. Not all of the major rail companies, | :47:34. | :47:40. | |
many of whom own bus companies have signed up to this. So the first | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
group going ahead, Stagecoach and they all have interests in both bus | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
and rail and I should declare another interest, in as much as I'm | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
a frequent user of my local bus services in Gateshead, not owning a | :47:59. | :48:03. | |
car, but I have a very good service provided by the Go Ahead group. But | :48:04. | :48:09. | |
not all of my constituents can benefit from such great services. | :48:10. | :48:14. | |
The bus company do try their best and provide excellent bus services | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
during the peak hours, but as the evening goes on, those bus | :48:21. | :48:27. | |
frequencies dwindle. Bus workers outside of London should also be | :48:28. | :48:34. | |
able to access this and that would be the effect of this new clause, | :48:35. | :48:41. | |
where franchises or quality partnerships are introduced and this | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
was brought in responding to a spate of deaths and injuries on London's | :48:47. | :48:53. | |
roads involving bus. Transport for London has arranged for the system | :48:54. | :48:58. | |
to be extended to London and London has one of best resourced networks | :48:59. | :49:04. | |
with some of the newest buses. This supports the extension of the seem | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
to butt operators nationwide in line with other aspects of bill, | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
including matters unconnected to franchises, such as announcement and | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
a national approach is warranted and would be desirable. The cost of | :49:21. | :49:25. | |
membership is certainly not in any way, shape or form prehibitive. | :49:26. | :49:33. | |
It is based on the turnover of boss operating companies so a bus | :49:34. | :49:40. | |
operating company with a turnover of less than ?1 million would only have | :49:41. | :49:43. | |
a certain amount of money to pay worth as a big operator, if they | :49:44. | :49:51. | |
were in theory to have enough overnighting turnover of ?200 | :49:52. | :49:56. | |
million VC would still only be the same so the fee are low, modest and | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
represent a serious obstacle and what I would ask the Minister is if | :50:03. | :50:05. | |
they are not willing to concede to this clause we hope the ministers | :50:06. | :50:09. | |
would agree to make regulations or at least guidance in this area or to | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
consult on all bus companies throughout the United Kingdom with | :50:14. | :50:20. | |
not just those who participated in those in a quality partnerships | :50:21. | :50:25. | |
cream, the consultation should indicate support for signing up to | :50:26. | :50:34. | |
Cyrus. On the amendment, there are a number of things in the amendment is | :50:35. | :50:40. | |
would like to refer to, ensuring employees working under local | :50:41. | :50:44. | |
service contracts would be not employed on terms and conditions | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
than those provided by a city, and there is also a concern that an | :50:48. | :50:55. | |
anticipation of changes in local provision bus operators... I might | :50:56. | :51:01. | |
actually curtail a route, and therefore the drivers or operators | :51:02. | :51:07. | |
on that route are made redundant and then another operator might start at | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
the same route only a week or ten days later but the way in which the | :51:11. | :51:17. | |
bill is -- instructed the drivers would have an automatic eg of | :51:18. | :51:22. | |
protection, although of course I'm sure that they have it unions would | :51:23. | :51:25. | |
be frightened for that. -- are fighting for that. Working condition | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
should be no rewards for the duration of the franchise and | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
employees must not be employed in worse terms than existing employees. | :51:35. | :51:37. | |
There are precedents for these type of illness leg-macro arrangements, | :51:38. | :51:42. | |
with government support for example the countries with public private | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
partnership with YouTube, and well protected. More recently ScotRail, | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
Antares, including four ferries and additional protections for the | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
successful bidder, making savings from reducing staff goats -- are not | :51:58. | :52:02. | |
making savings from reducing staff jobs, one amendment would protect | :52:03. | :52:07. | |
and age recruitment and retention and therefore a high-quality, stable | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
workforce within the industry which I know does right many franchise | :52:12. | :52:17. | |
areas and communicable I personally have been on many buses over the | :52:18. | :52:24. | |
duration of privatised franchises were frankly bus drivers did not | :52:25. | :52:28. | |
know the route they were travelling on, asking passengers, you know, the | :52:29. | :52:32. | |
route that they are having to travel on a particular journey. So it is | :52:33. | :52:38. | |
not beyond the bounds of possibility that we can actually legislate this | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
or regulate it out. More importantly, the amendment would | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
also prevent the further increase in short-term bus drivers, in an | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
industry which has affected services, and certain values of the | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
professional logistics and transport body have published findings from a | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
survey addressing the current driver sorted in the industry. The three | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
highest reasons cited as of 15 reasons were by some distance a | :53:08. | :53:13. | |
shortage of drivers, where poor pay and poor conditions, and industry | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
image were problems in terms of recruitment and retention. And if | :53:19. | :53:24. | |
the government are willing to concede the amendment in this | :53:25. | :53:26. | |
section I would hope that the ministers would agree to regulations | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
at least making some guidance to the industry about this. On amendments | :53:35. | :53:40. | |
ten, this amendment with the dismissal of a employee for the sole | :53:41. | :53:47. | |
principle of reducing the franchise scheme automatically unfair, and | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
unfair dismissal, and amendments 12 and 13 would make dismissal of an | :53:53. | :53:56. | |
employee for the sole principle reason of the award of a contract | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
and a partnership scheme automatically construing unfair | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
dismissal. There is concern about the potential or a company which has | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
lost a bid to run a franchise or which does not wish to participate | :54:10. | :54:14. | |
in the franchising process can simply abandon its route and it has | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
happened on numerous occasions. In order to do this they only need to | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
deregister the route by notifying the traffic Commissioner Emma and we | :54:22. | :54:26. | |
want the bus services built to protect workers and passengers from | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
company conducting itself in such a manner. We are also concerned about | :54:30. | :54:34. | |
things slipping outside the protective net of duty, but if the | :54:35. | :54:40. | |
company does abandon a franchise that means the passengers who rely | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
on that bus service day in, day out, are often left without a means of | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
just getting to and from their place of work and we have heard ministers | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
in the Department for Transport criticising rail unions over the | :54:54. | :55:01. | |
solution having an impact on people getting to and from work, but | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
equally they should be concerned about the scope of it bus franchise | :55:05. | :55:11. | |
owner actually a landing their own franchise for business reasons. The | :55:12. | :55:19. | |
amendment means... Given a particularly loose way in which the | :55:20. | :55:22. | |
bus sector is currently arranged them is elevated risk of this | :55:23. | :55:24. | |
occurring at the moment than the bill provide protection and the | :55:25. | :55:31. | |
point of transport, or earlier if the agreement is reached with the | :55:32. | :55:33. | |
successful bidder, and the amendments mean terminations for | :55:34. | :55:42. | |
very matter of employees in certain categories unfair. This will not | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
only protect jobs but help ensure continuity of service in the event | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
that the bus service operator seeking to provide a service or | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
reduced services because of the threat of franchise order because | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
they do not win the bid for franchise from withdrawing Fire | :56:01. | :56:05. | |
Service. The extract I will talk about now is from the Manchester | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
evening News of the 21st of March and it shows bus companies in | :56:10. | :56:14. | |
Manchester are already cutting services in readiness for the bus | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
bill and no doubt as a show of strength in negotiations and must | :56:19. | :56:26. | |
franchising. We have been reliably informed that the whole timetable | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
for this bill is being driven by Manchester as part of the coalition | :56:32. | :56:38. | |
deal. -- devolution deal. If the government are unwilling to concede | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
is amendments we would hope that ministers would agree to make | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
regulations were the least guidance to the industry in this area, and | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will finish my piece. New clause four, | :56:54. | :57:02. | |
bus safety. The question is that new clause four be read a second time. | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
Adam Driver disfigure our rise in support of those amendments tabled | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
in my name and the name of other honourable and right honourable | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
colleagues, first Amendment 14, amendment cysteine-23, amendment 15, | :57:16. | :57:25. | |
amendment 24, amendment 25, 26, 27, and also finally amendment 20 eight. | :57:26. | :57:29. | |
If I can turn first of all in moving these amendments to amendment 14. As | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
a straightforward because it ensures the local transport authorities | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
cannot make transport schemes if benefits can be provided by equality | :57:41. | :57:46. | |
partnership, an advanced equality partnership or enhanced partnership | :57:47. | :57:56. | |
scheme. These are mainly drafting amendments but I think it is very | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
important that they franchising authority is satisfied rather than | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
just considering the issues in a franchising settlement. As has been | :58:07. | :58:12. | |
made clear and we have heard on many occasions in debates on this clause, | :58:13. | :58:15. | |
franchising should not be an easy option. A local transport authority | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
should not be allowed to take a simple punt at franchising without | :58:21. | :58:23. | |
full and detailed consideration of all options available. Of course | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
there are other options available not least partnership arrangements | :58:29. | :58:33. | |
but we looked at and will surely return to them again in the near | :58:34. | :58:36. | |
future. The filters contain stringent tests that I think it | :58:37. | :58:42. | |
would be easy for local authorities to say that it has considered | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
whether a proposed voucher scheme would the age to its transport buses | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
or whether it has the capability, resources to operate the scheme or | :58:51. | :58:53. | |
just as important to consider whether it can afford the scheme and | :58:54. | :58:57. | |
whether evidence value for money. In other words, for the constituents. | :58:58. | :59:02. | |
It is another matter to save the authority is satisfied that the | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
proposals will do the thing so surely the importance in taking a | :59:07. | :59:11. | |
franchise scheme is not too much to ask, but it is convinced that the | :59:12. | :59:17. | |
proposals will do exactly what those say on the tin, as it were, and that | :59:18. | :59:23. | |
is what the particular amendments tabled set aside to try and achieve. | :59:24. | :59:29. | |
I had an Deputy Speaker will move on to amendment 15 and what that does | :59:30. | :59:37. | |
is simply complement 14 although it basically look at it from a | :59:38. | :59:40. | |
different angle and as far as that is concerned I would say anything | :59:41. | :59:45. | |
about it except just to show that you can't have 14 without 15 because | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
what $15 is require a transplant satellite to specify the benefits of | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
passengers explained why they can be delivered by a partnership scheme or | :59:57. | :00:06. | |
the leader of any sort. I now move on to the most important amendment | :00:07. | :00:11. | |
in this collection and that is amendment 24, all about | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
compensation. I think the key here is to bring into play a degree of | :00:17. | :00:25. | |
fairness, because I think what is important is that the bill is | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
actually very silent on the matter of conversation which I think is | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
wrong. I know that he will say in his response that if you will go | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
along to the select committee, saying there was no case | :00:42. | :00:47. | |
compensation, and follow where that the conversation wouldn't have been | :00:48. | :00:51. | |
available under an equality under scheme but the days of policy | :00:52. | :00:55. | |
countries are severely numbered and I feel that there was no | :00:56. | :00:57. | |
compensation under the scheme does not mean that it isn't right to have | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
compensation in new arrangements. I think it would be bad enough for the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
large PLCs, Madam Deputy Speaker, who have to redeploy their staff, | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
their assets, what about the smaller operators I will give way. Thank | :01:14. | :01:21. | |
you. Listening gavel to what he says, because he hasn't explained so | :01:22. | :01:28. | |
far, what basis would be compensation given when every bus | :01:29. | :01:31. | |
company could compete to run the buses via a franchising process? I'm | :01:32. | :01:41. | |
not an expert on this, I have a small and medium enterprises in my | :01:42. | :01:46. | |
constituency on buses, and if they established their businesses on a | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
lot of hard work, with lots of risk, one company came to see me to save | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
the directors have mortgaged their homes, and invested the life savings | :01:56. | :01:58. | |
to ensure the company grew, they would stand to lose not because they | :01:59. | :02:02. | |
haven't performed properly, not because there were about company, | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
not because passengers decided they didn't want to use them any more, | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
no, they stand to lose because they didn't win a bit, simply, to | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
continue to do what they have been doing successfully the years. I | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
suggest that this is a fair measure and I would ask the Minister to have | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
a look at it and I think there was a wider point here because what | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
message does it send to businesses looking to invest in the UK? We want | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
businesses to come to the UK to invest and we should be saying to | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
those businesses can write you come to the UK to invest but indeed | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
authorities take your business of view, there should be some | :02:42. | :02:43. | |
compensation. I think this particular measure does any | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
long-term represent good value for the taxpayer because it actually | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
shows that taxpayer's money is going to be put to a good use because if | :02:54. | :02:58. | |
businesses are put out of business because of measures in this bill | :02:59. | :03:02. | |
then surely there should be a caustic compensation. I will give | :03:03. | :03:09. | |
way. I thank him. He is rightly talking about the importance of | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
delivering value for money for the taxpayer. I say to him in the case | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
of the north-east as across many parts of the country there isn't | :03:17. | :03:19. | |
good value for the fact that I would have limited bus operators that | :03:20. | :03:24. | |
really have a monopoly over services as shown by the magician commission. | :03:25. | :03:29. | |
The competition that was meant to follow from deregulation hasn't | :03:30. | :03:31. | |
materialised, this isn't good value for the taxpayer and actually that | :03:32. | :03:35. | |
would allow smaller operators to break into the market where the big | :03:36. | :03:40. | |
boys at the moment has a stranglehold. I see the point that | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
she makes, and I don't need judgment to see what is going on in my area | :03:47. | :03:50. | |
but I hope what she has says that in taking on in the view of the | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
Commissioner. I in competition, smaller operators flourishing stop | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
certainly in Norfolk this small operators, like Norfolk Green for | :04:02. | :04:04. | |
example that are able to move in on two routes and bring into place a | :04:05. | :04:11. | |
new culture, a new service, a new ethic, and have done a quite | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
fantastic job and as a consequence, and I defer to the right Honourable | :04:19. | :04:21. | |
gentleman who knows a lot about this subject, have been happy to get more | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
customers onto these routes and to reopen routes that have previously | :04:26. | :04:26. | |
been closed down. It hasn't worked that way under the | :04:27. | :04:37. | |
current regime. The worry I have with what he is saying, he is | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
speaking for the bus companies rather than the travelling public, | :04:42. | :04:44. | |
that is what it sounds like to me. Can he assure me this is not a | :04:45. | :04:51. | |
wrecking amendment? That by fear of compensation, he is hoping that | :04:52. | :04:53. | |
local authorities will be persuaded to not even try and use the powers | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
in this bill because they would not be able to afford compensation | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
payments? I assure him I am not trying to wreck the bill or do | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
anything that is untoward. I'm simply trying to make sure that SMEs | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
are treated fairly. Moving on to amendment 25 which is again in my | :05:14. | :05:20. | |
name and of other colleagues. It ensures that any auditor appointed | :05:21. | :05:27. | |
by the franchising authority has no commercial interest or association | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
with the franchising authority that might create or could be perceived | :05:32. | :05:40. | |
to create, the franchise. It is recently anodyne but it is actually | :05:41. | :05:48. | |
quite important. I would urge him to look at it carefully indeed. As we | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
move onto the next one at the next two, 26 and 27, these two here are | :05:55. | :06:04. | |
again quite small amendments. But I think they are important. If a | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
franchising authority fails to make a case for a franchise scheme or | :06:11. | :06:16. | |
decide not to progress proposals, should have the measure to combat | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
the following year or the year after that, all within months. I suggest | :06:20. | :06:24. | |
it should not be able to do that. What these two amendments do is | :06:25. | :06:31. | |
prevent the authority coming back within five years with a fresh | :06:32. | :06:36. | |
proposal. I would like to quote what my right honourable friend the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
Chancellor said in his Autumn Statement "I know how much business | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
values certainty and stability." I think he is right. The one thing | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
they dread is uncertainty. It can affect recruitment decisions and | :06:51. | :06:55. | |
investment plans. Particularly SMEs, how they conduct business. The | :06:56. | :07:03. | |
measures contained in this bill, they could find their businesses | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
under threat and in the worst case scenario, an authority coming back | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
time and again within that five-year period possibly. What we want to do | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
is create a situation where we have a workable franchise scheme and the | :07:19. | :07:22. | |
franchising authority can't keep chipping away at it. I would say to | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
the Minister that these amendments are not by any means vital but I | :07:28. | :07:32. | |
think they would help local authorities as well. We know do not, | :07:33. | :07:38. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, that the burdens on local authorities are | :07:39. | :07:41. | |
growing the whole time. They are under massive pressure to deliver | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
better services and value for money from refuse collection to care for | :07:47. | :07:50. | |
the elderly and streetlights and planning with ever dwindling | :07:51. | :07:55. | |
resources. So for the local authority to have quite a lot of | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
pressure put on it by elected members were other bodies, to devote | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
time and energy to bringing back a franchise excise when it was not | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
progressed in the first place I think would be a mistake. I go away | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
again. I am grateful to him for giving way again. I want | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
clarification from him and reassurance on this point. It sounds | :08:20. | :08:25. | |
like the combined effect of these amendments is to open up some | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
confusion and possibilities for legal challenges that bus operators | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
can use. To actually tie the hands of the combined authority in greater | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
Manchester but other combined authorities elsewhere. Can he make | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
it absolutely clear that that is not what he is trying to do. It sounds | :08:43. | :08:45. | |
for all the world that that is the real intent behind these amendments. | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
Eremenko I have a lot of time for the honourable gentleman, and a | :08:52. | :08:55. | |
times in the past and he was a minister and I was asking questions | :08:56. | :09:00. | |
and we engaged in committee, it is not my intention to do what he is | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
suggesting. These are amendments that smaller bus companies will have | :09:04. | :09:09. | |
a lot of time for. With the honourable lady like me to give way? | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
Does he acknowledge that having the opportunity franchising powers | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
allows local authorities to put pressure on operators who are not | :09:20. | :09:23. | |
all small and medium-sized companies. Most of them are very | :09:24. | :09:28. | |
large operators. In order to bring them perhaps into partnership with | :09:29. | :09:33. | |
arrangements. If the authority does not have the opportunity and | :09:34. | :09:35. | |
potential of bringing forward franchising scheme is that in many | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
cases, those operators will not enter into serious negotiations | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
about partnerships, whether they be advanced or enhanced. They have | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
those powers anyway. But it will be listened to by the Minister and the | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
Minister will listen to what we have said and take a decision on that. | :09:58. | :10:03. | |
The other amendment I want to move, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will be be | :10:04. | :10:07. | |
because I have already taken up the House's time. That is amendment 20 | :10:08. | :10:13. | |
eight. The key to amendment 28, what this will do is specify that fares | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
and structures could only be specified as part of an enhanced | :10:20. | :10:25. | |
partnership scheme if all the operators agree. I think the key | :10:26. | :10:34. | |
here is the ability of commercial bus operators to set their own | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
affairs. A key part of a deregulated market. Prices will be set | :10:39. | :10:46. | |
competitively. Men and Speaker, the competition authority has safeguards | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
in place to ensure bus companies do not collude to stitch up the market | :10:51. | :10:57. | |
and set fares that disadvantage passengers. There are checks and | :10:58. | :11:00. | |
balances here that are extremely important. I will certainly give way | :11:01. | :11:04. | |
for the honourable member for Newcastle. I am grateful to the | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
honourable gentleman. I'm afraid to say that what he is outlining here | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
seems to suggest that the powers of the local authority or collection of | :11:16. | :11:18. | |
local authorities in the areas that he represents would be less than | :11:19. | :11:22. | |
those which are currently enjoyed by the voters of London in terms of | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
having oversight of the running of an integrated transport system. Why | :11:29. | :11:34. | |
should it be that the electors of all other parts of England should | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
have an inferior set of arrangements for an integrated transport system | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
than the voters of London? That is what would be the outcome of the | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
elements and amendments he is suggesting. I simply say to the | :11:48. | :11:55. | |
honourable gentleman, that I have a huge amount of respect for him, I | :11:56. | :11:59. | |
have listened to the bus operators in my constituency and listened to | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
the passengers in my constituency. We have compared, compared to 20 | :12:03. | :12:11. | |
years ago, when the honourable member for Cambridge were standing | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
in a rural Norfolk seat and nearly winning that Norfolk seat in 1997, | :12:15. | :12:22. | |
Migno folk I think it was. We have added more bus services serving when | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
it communities and villages because of the way SMEs have come forward | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
and stepped up to the plate as it were. I have taken enough time of | :12:31. | :12:36. | |
the House this afternoon and I simply say to the Minister that I do | :12:37. | :12:43. | |
believe these amendments in my name and my honourable and right | :12:44. | :12:46. | |
honourable friends go a long way to improving this bill at, not | :12:47. | :12:53. | |
undermining sabotaging parts of the bill but making it, I think better | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
for the bus operators, the smaller bus operators but for passengers and | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
local authorities as well by providing important clarity. I beg | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
to move those amendments. I would like to make -- direct my remarks | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
that the clauses and amendments in relation to franchising. Including | :13:14. | :13:24. | |
amendments 14 to 23 and 26 and 27. The strength of this bill is in | :13:25. | :13:32. | |
devolution. And the proposal that decision-making on providing bus | :13:33. | :13:34. | |
services should be devolved to local transport authorities and should be | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
looking at what works best in local areas. In looking at that, it is | :13:40. | :13:46. | |
important to remember that this bill has come about because of | :13:47. | :13:49. | |
dissatisfaction from members of the public and people who want to use | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
buses about the way the current system operates. There have been a | :13:55. | :14:02. | |
number of opportunities to change the 1985 transport directly to | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
transport services but none of those efforts have resolved the problem. | :14:07. | :14:13. | |
This bill I think is an important element in have the public | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
experience and growing the private sector. I welcome the bill. The | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
transport select committee has looked at the bill in detail. We | :14:24. | :14:29. | |
looked at it from the perspective of passengers and the interests of | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
passengers. We did very much welcome the possibility of new entrants, | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
smaller entrance, being able to be involved in the bus market. My | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
concerns in relation to these amendments and clauses what to do | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
with looking at whether the proposed amendments will in fact stop | :14:47. | :14:54. | |
devolution as opposed to being able to take place. Two aspects, firstly | :14:55. | :15:00. | |
in relation to the areas where combined authority areas with | :15:01. | :15:03. | |
directly elected mayors will have the power to go forward with | :15:04. | :15:10. | |
franchising. There is a lack of clarity on what regulations will be | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
introduced or imposed to impede directly elected mayors from doing | :15:17. | :15:19. | |
that. It is not entirely clear from the amendments put forward whether | :15:20. | :15:25. | |
that would be an absolute right of directly elected mayors with | :15:26. | :15:32. | |
combined authorities to introduce franchising or perhaps complex and | :15:33. | :15:33. | |
unknown regulations would be imposed. I would like clarification | :15:34. | :15:40. | |
from the Minister on that. It addresses a fundamental part of this | :15:41. | :15:45. | |
bill. Secondly, the proposal of the bill is that transport authorities | :15:46. | :15:50. | |
in areas which are not combined authorities with directly elected | :15:51. | :15:55. | |
mayors may have the powers to introduce franchising under certain | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
circumstances. My concern is that the amendments put forward make that | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
proposal extremely complex. So that it is virtually impossible to assess | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
whether the local transport authorities in those areas would in | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
fact be able to proceed with franchising if they wished to do so. | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
The transport select committee when we looked at this did look at good | :16:19. | :16:24. | |
practice and the committee as a whole certainly thought that local | :16:25. | :16:28. | |
transport authorities should look at other existing ways of operating in | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
partnership with local transport operators for their move to a | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
franchising system. We did not think that should be part of the | :16:38. | :16:41. | |
regulations. The proposal now introduces new hurdles, not fully | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
specified as to what those hurdles are. Equally importantly, how these | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
hurdles would be assessed before the authority could proceed to having a | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
franchise system. That, it seems to me, seems to strike at the heart of | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
the bill. This bill is about improving transport services in the | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
localities. Devolving to local transport authorities the ability to | :17:09. | :17:12. | |
act on the needs of their areas. Yet the amendments we are looking at | :17:13. | :17:16. | |
introduce new hurdles which could possibly in the future mean that | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
future ministers could impede the objectives of the ball. I'm sure | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
that present their ministers would not wish to happen. I'm extremely | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
concerned about these amendments and proposals and I seek clarification | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
from the transport minister on what they mean and whether the government | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
still intends franchising to be able to go ahead. And it has stated, | :17:42. | :17:45. | |
without introducing convex hurdles which in reality would make it to | :17:46. | :17:53. | |
achieve. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow | :17:54. | :17:57. | |
my honourable friend the chair of the transport select committee. We | :17:58. | :18:03. | |
have looked at this issue number of times in the transport select | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
committee and we have never been able to find a reason, as my | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
honourable friend from Gateshead alluded to, a reason why London | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
should have one system and the rest of the country should have another | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
system. I know the honourable member for Wimbledon agrees with that. I | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
don't blame them, the regulated system in London is superior to the | :18:28. | :18:35. | |
system the rest of us in the rest of the country have. I listened to the | :18:36. | :18:44. | |
honourable member for North West Norfolk in his responses about not | :18:45. | :18:50. | |
wanting to wreck this bill and I take that at face value. However, I | :18:51. | :18:57. | |
think the amendments do not reflect the nature or the reality of bus | :18:58. | :19:03. | |
services certainly in urban areas I am not an expert of bus services in | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
Norfolk. I suspect he knows more than I do about Norfolk. But the | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
fact is that if he is concerned about small bus companies, he should | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
be concerned to support this bill as it is way to improve it. What has | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
happened in the West Midlands, Merseyside, Tyne and greater | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
Manchester and the great urban areas of this country is precisely the | :19:31. | :19:33. | |
opposite of what he wants. Small companies have been given off | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
the road by large companies. I couldn't agree more. When the | :19:41. | :19:58. | |
situation was first brought about I actually remember visiting Merthyr | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
Tydfil, Madam Deputy Speaker to see Gateshead play, and a conference | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
fixture and lo and behold there were Gateshead buses actually being used | :20:10. | :20:14. | |
in a local bus war to actually destabilise the local small bus | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
company site in terms of the impact on small and medium-size enterprise | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
bus companies that particular horse has bolted long ago. I thank my | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
honourable friend for his intervention. Exactly right. The | :20:28. | :20:35. | |
deregulation of bus services has not led to greater competition, it's not | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
been of benefit to small enterprise or medium enterprise and stop they | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
have been literally driven off the roads because on the odd occasions | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
when there has been on the road competition it has led to congestion | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
and eventually a large monopoly operator taking over first group for | :20:55. | :21:03. | |
example, and one or two others, taking control and therefore able to | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
exploit the situation with higher bus fares and sometimes withdrawing | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
services from other areas. I will give way. I am grateful. I have | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
listened with interest to the comments made about SMEs, and there | :21:17. | :21:24. | |
is a lot of truth for small bus companies but isn't the greatest | :21:25. | :21:27. | |
concern for medium-sized operators which there aren't that many of any | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
country but in a kanji like mine, Nottinghamshire, and bathing in | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
Derbyshire, there are some, which the honourable lady from Nottingham | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
South is familiar with, good medium-sized bus companies and they | :21:42. | :21:44. | |
stand to lose a lot from this and they will either go exponentially to | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
win a franchise or confined in the case of either of those companies 30 | :21:48. | :21:52. | |
years of hard work going down the toilet, with no compensation | :21:53. | :21:56. | |
whatsoever? I will come onto the point that the honourable gentleman | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
makes, it is a fair point, and he's right to be concerned about that but | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
I want to develop the argument on making by these amendments are not | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
sensible amendments to the bill. In large parts of the country where | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
most bus passengers are, we do not have competition. The basis of the | :22:20. | :22:27. | |
1985 act was that would be on the road competition in that provide | :22:28. | :22:34. | |
good services and a bus companies lost out because of an road | :22:35. | :22:37. | |
competition, they lost out as in any other catalyst competitive market | :22:38. | :22:45. | |
situation. That actually hasn't happened, he moved to monopoly. | :22:46. | :22:52. | |
Incidentally, when the... 1985 act was implemented in 1986 there was no | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
compensation paid to those bus companies of which there were a | :22:59. | :23:03. | |
number who had been running an regulative routes, in east | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
Manchester, for example a company had run for many years and they when | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
they had to compete did not get compensation. So what we are doing | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
now is moving to in principle a different way, to a system in those | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
areas that used to do it because the world rejoices for Norfolk Greater | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
Manchester at some stage if they do, to a competitive situation. And of | :23:31. | :23:36. | |
course in a competitive situation as is true of oil franchises, and | :23:37. | :23:42. | |
cavities lose out. -- rail franchises, they lose their | :23:43. | :23:47. | |
businesses, and I have mentioned previously as one of the | :23:48. | :23:49. | |
difficulties of franchising, ending up with investors and a lack of | :23:50. | :23:55. | |
investment at the end, that of the nature of franchising. About | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
medium-sized bus companies, that can of course be taken into account in | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
the way that franchises are set up by local choice. They can set them | :24:07. | :24:13. | |
up in as many different ways as they wish to which would give you rights | :24:14. | :24:22. | |
of medium-sized companies to tender for routes that that the size of the | :24:23. | :24:26. | |
bus company if that was the franchising authority's desire, | :24:27. | :24:31. | |
which brings me to one of my points in committee, that rather than the | :24:32. | :24:39. | |
amendments we have here I would have preferred the bill to have said as | :24:40. | :24:48. | |
rejected in committee that two things. One regulation should be | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
unburdened, and they should should secondly reflect local conditions | :24:53. | :24:54. | |
and there if they were reflecting local conditions that they could | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
take into account those small and medium-sized companies. But there is | :25:00. | :25:02. | |
a larger point here and as my right honourable friend said I think the | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
large bus companies more than the small bus companies would be pleased | :25:07. | :25:11. | |
if these amendments were passed. The reason that there is not a single | :25:12. | :25:18. | |
quality contract in this country is that when quality contracts were | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
brought in legislatively in the 2000 transport act, there was a clause in | :25:25. | :25:30. | |
that which, very similar to the clauses that the honourable | :25:31. | :25:35. | |
gentleman here, saying they are the only practical way of delivering a | :25:36. | :25:38. | |
better bus service. This is an incredibly high hurdle to pass which | :25:39. | :25:47. | |
is why there aren't any. In fact, in terms of quality partnerships which | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
she refers to when I asked the minister in committee how many | :25:52. | :25:54. | |
quality partnerships were in the country, after a little help from | :25:55. | :26:01. | |
his officials we discover that there were ten, so even quality | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
partnerships are not even abundant on the ground in this country. I | :26:05. | :26:12. | |
think we do not need over burdensome regulations, but want to make this | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
work because with little improve the services, more competitive, and lead | :26:17. | :26:24. | |
to better services. In terms of reducing costs, we are discussing | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
them now, but there are huge notes on guidance associated with this be | :26:28. | :26:33. | |
-- bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, which I think over prescriptive, and I | :26:34. | :26:41. | |
prefer to rely on the good sense of local councillors who will make some | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
good decisions and some bad, but there are many bus companies opposed | :26:48. | :26:53. | |
to this and if local authorities behave in an unreasonable way then | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
they have the right to apply the Wednesbury principal and go through | :26:59. | :27:04. | |
a judicial review, and I think rather than having lots of | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
prescriptions, putting more and more hurdles in the way of local people | :27:08. | :27:15. | |
making decisions, we should rely on them, and sometimes they will get it | :27:16. | :27:20. | |
wrong, as they do at national level at times, but we can rely on them, | :27:21. | :27:26. | |
on the common law that will insure that if bus companies feel that they | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
are being unfairly treated, that the transport authority in the area is | :27:32. | :27:35. | |
behaving in a way that is unreasonable, then they would be | :27:36. | :27:40. | |
able to take that to court so why have the minister will reject these | :27:41. | :27:44. | |
amendments, in the balance that we have had through all of this vote, | :27:45. | :27:50. | |
what essential, what is going to help local authorities, transport | :27:51. | :27:52. | |
authorities, elected mayors make the decision, I don't think these are | :27:53. | :27:57. | |
helpful in moving us towards a better local transport system. Thank | :27:58. | :28:05. | |
you Madam Deputy Speaker. With a wide range of amendments here, many | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
of which we support but some we do not, I would like to start with new | :28:11. | :28:14. | |
clause four on bus safety, one which I genuinely hope the Minister will | :28:15. | :28:17. | |
consider because despite his comments in committee, I have had | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
more disappointment it's best to me since those discussions on any other | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
element of those proceedings partly because the Minister from the other | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
players had been encouraging, but I can't believes there is any | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
disagreements on the value of improving safety. It is widely | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
improved as a cost-effective way of achieving that goal. I think the | :28:41. | :28:44. | |
minister suggested in committee that he might be minded to insert some | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
guidance to encourage bus operators to sign up but I have to say the | :28:50. | :28:56. | |
importance of -- emphasis on voluntariness is clear, and to my | :28:57. | :29:03. | |
knowledge no bus operator outside London is signed up. This is an | :29:04. | :29:07. | |
opportunity to actually end that situation, as my honourable friend | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
said, it is not expensive, it works in the railway industry, haven't | :29:13. | :29:16. | |
heard anyone make a strong case against it stop it works very well | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
and I would urge the Minister to grasp the opportunity. Now, the | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
amendments 14-23, and 15, do seem to us to be unnecessary and to go | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
against the spirit and evolutionary nature of the bill. We believe the | :29:34. | :29:36. | |
current assessment process laid out in the bill, and as honourable | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
friends have mentioned, the extensive, I think 168 pages of | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
guidance available to it, I think that is a very thorough process and | :29:46. | :29:49. | |
in fact a very tough process already. We don't believe it needs | :29:50. | :29:55. | |
to be added to further. Amendment 24 in our view undermines the | :29:56. | :29:58. | |
assessment made by the government of the issues around compensation, and | :29:59. | :30:03. | |
sufficient time for operators to be able to plan accordingly, and we | :30:04. | :30:06. | |
believe the conditions already in the bill fully satisfy all the money | :30:07. | :30:13. | |
for consideration so we are pleased the confirmation of the second | :30:14. | :30:16. | |
reading and in committee, but the aim is to remove barriers in this | :30:17. | :30:22. | |
proceeding, and so our fear is exactly as has been said by | :30:23. | :30:24. | |
honourable friend and right honourable friend is that this | :30:25. | :30:27. | |
amendment could put the very heart of the bill at risk. Amendment 25 | :30:28. | :30:35. | |
also seems to us unnecessary, as additional appropriate independent | :30:36. | :30:36. | |
structure for the audit process will be insured by the government | :30:37. | :30:40. | |
amendment that I think are probably about see him moved. And amendments | :30:41. | :30:47. | |
26 and 27, a game seemed to us against the evolutionary nature of | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
the bill because we believe it is to the local authorities to make these | :30:51. | :30:57. | |
local judgments. Returning to amendments six, seven, ten, 11 and | :30:58. | :31:04. | |
13 in the name of the Gateshead, we strongly support them, and the | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
arguments made strongly in committee and more strongly today, very well | :31:08. | :31:11. | |
made, and I'm my view it is absolutely right that any of these | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
transfers the detectives, and this is an opportunity do that. I fear | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
that if we don't take this opportunity, we should. Thank you | :31:22. | :31:32. | |
very much. The respective roles of central government and local | :31:33. | :31:36. | |
government in this bill was a running theme through the committee | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
stage and I think Brown back to its today. Let me start by addressing | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
amendments concerning franchising schemes. The decision to move to a | :31:44. | :31:51. | |
franchising system is a big one for any authority or combined | :31:52. | :31:53. | |
authorities you take, and it is therefore not to be undertaken | :31:54. | :31:58. | |
lightly. And it is one which must have improvement for bus passengers | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
at its heart. Importantly it must be very much a local decision. That is | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
absolutely and underlining support which we have bought to this bill | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
from the very beginning. We do however want to ensure that local | :32:14. | :32:17. | |
authorities contemplating franchising do so with their eyes | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
wide open to the opportunities, risks and costs. We expect them to | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
have consulted widely on proposals. The bill sets out clearly the | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
processes authorities must follow for implementing franchising. This | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
includes developing and assessment -- and assessment of the proposal | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
commenters of a business case. As a part of the assessment the authority | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
must consider value mother -- for money and the proposal, and must | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
prepare achingly proposed game against other courses of action such | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
as a partnership, very much indeed as my honourable friend from Norfolk | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
was suggesting. But several of the amendments in this group were | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
changed -- would change how these amendments are operated. Amendments | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
24 tabled by my honourable friend for North West Norfolk ekes to | :33:07. | :33:10. | |
ensure that an authority includes in its assessment consideration of | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
whether the proposed scheme would be more efficient, effective and | :33:15. | :33:16. | |
economic than any other option. Taking into account any compensation | :33:17. | :33:24. | |
payable to operators. I do not see a need given extensive requirements | :33:25. | :33:26. | |
set out just exactly go to include these additional and very similar | :33:27. | :33:31. | |
issues as a separate part of the assessment. I also do not think it | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
is necessary to delete macro or appropriate for there to be a | :33:37. | :33:38. | |
reference to compensation in this part of the bill or indeed of any -- | :33:39. | :33:43. | |
anywhere in it. Any move to a franchising scheme will not come as | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
a surprise to bus operators, with clear processes and consultation | :33:49. | :33:50. | |
arrangements we have set out providing them with sufficient | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
warning of, giving an opportunity to express views on the proposed | :33:55. | :33:59. | |
scheme, as statutory consultees. Currently, bus operators of riots -- | :34:00. | :34:06. | |
acquires to provide their intentions. This enables authorities | :34:07. | :34:12. | |
to experiment notice period to hundred and 12 days to enable | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
authority to make changes if necessary. That's an important point | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
I think for the amendments suggested by the honourable gentleman for | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
Gateshead. Bus operators of all sizes will be able to compete when a | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
franchising system is implemented even if that is the route that is | :34:30. | :34:32. | |
chosen for the local basis. That competition will take place off | :34:33. | :34:45. | |
the road but it will still exist. It is only for those operators who | :34:46. | :34:52. | |
choose not to compete or to that will generally no longer be able to | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
run services once franchising model is implemented. In any event, they | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
would be free to register for new services elsewhere. The minister | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
says the competition will continue to exist. 30 save that the committee | :35:08. | :35:18. | |
were unable to find much evidence for an road competition. My point in | :35:19. | :35:24. | |
that competition doesn't disappear from the market. Competition | :35:25. | :35:27. | |
currently takes place where it does come on the road. We are now moving | :35:28. | :35:31. | |
from the roadside to the tender. I'm not accepting that competition | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
disappears from the marketplace at all. I come from a robust private | :35:37. | :35:42. | |
sector background into this place where competition was the | :35:43. | :35:44. | |
bread-and-butter of daily activity and I'm sure it can have a positive | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
impact on customer service, innovation, price etc. I am grateful | :35:50. | :35:58. | |
to the Minister for giving way. He kindly met my constituent John | :35:59. | :36:04. | |
Marshall, who is also the chair of the East Midlands passenger | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
transport organisation that represents other small and | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
medium-sized bus companies. In the region. He says that for him and his | :36:13. | :36:17. | |
members, the question of compensation remains unanswered in | :36:18. | :36:20. | |
the bill. For the sake of clarity for bus operators like he is, is the | :36:21. | :36:26. | |
government intention that in the event franchises are lost, there | :36:27. | :36:31. | |
will be no compensation or should be no compensation for any bus company | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
in the UK? Would do not think that it would be requirement to pay | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
compensation. But if a franchising authority goes down the route of | :36:43. | :36:46. | |
developing a franchising model, they would be free to offer any payments | :36:47. | :36:55. | |
as they would see fit. I now turn to amendments 16 to 23, tabled by my | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
honourable friend, the member for North West Norfolk. Is seek to | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
require a franchising authority to be satisfied of rather than consider | :37:07. | :37:10. | |
certain matters when making an assessment of a proposed franchising | :37:11. | :37:15. | |
scheme. I think this is a significant distinction. The | :37:16. | :37:18. | |
assessment proposed in the bill does not require the authority to pass | :37:19. | :37:22. | |
certain tests or prove that franchising would achieve certain | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
things. Instead it reflects the standard approach for public sector | :37:27. | :37:29. | |
investment decisions requiring a view to be taken on the overall | :37:30. | :37:33. | |
merits of the scheme. This is a very deliberate move away from the old | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
quality context in the assessed which as we have heard this | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
afternoon, no authority has established a franchising system. A | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
requirement for franchising authority to satisfy itself that a | :37:48. | :37:51. | |
franchise would deliver certain things risks the creation of an | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
impossible hurdle. It would be difficult for authorities to satisfy | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
themselves with certainty as their analysis, by its very nature, would | :38:01. | :38:03. | |
be based on assumptions and projections about the future. I am | :38:04. | :38:08. | |
afraid that I think these amendments risk making this bill are unworkable | :38:09. | :38:15. | |
in practice. We agreed to deliver franchising power as part of our | :38:16. | :38:19. | |
devolution commitments. And that is what this bill does. I hope that on | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
the basis of these explanations, my honourable friend will feel able to | :38:25. | :38:29. | |
withdraw amendments 16 to 24. As well as requiring a franchising | :38:30. | :38:33. | |
authority to prepare an assessment, the bill also requires the authority | :38:34. | :38:38. | |
to obtain a report from a qualified auditor. This report must set out | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
whether the authority, has in relation to its consideration of | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
affordability and value for money, used information and conducted | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
analysis which is of sufficient quality. The authority must publish | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
the auditor's report as part of the consultation process. Amendments to | :38:59. | :39:01. | |
and three in the name of my right honourable friend the member the | :39:02. | :39:04. | |
Secretary of State make it clear that the auditor appointed for this | :39:05. | :39:09. | |
purpose must be independent. It has been our intention that this would | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
be independent but we want to make it clear and put this beyond any | :39:14. | :39:20. | |
doubt. In particular, Amendment three imposes duties on the | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
Secretary of State to issue guidance on matters a franchising authority | :39:23. | :39:27. | |
are to take into account when selecting its auditor. And also on | :39:28. | :39:32. | |
the criteria to be taken into account by an auditor in reaching a | :39:33. | :39:34. | |
view on the relevant aspects of another it is system. I have to say, | :39:35. | :39:48. | |
I am happy to see that I am in this instance in total agreement with my | :39:49. | :39:53. | |
right and noble friend, or North West Norfolk, and I agree with him | :39:54. | :39:58. | |
in principle an amendment 20 five. I have to say though that the | :39:59. | :40:03. | |
principle I agree with, when we go into the nuances of how you would | :40:04. | :40:10. | |
demonstrate independence from the authority are better addressed | :40:11. | :40:14. | |
through guidance rather than on the face of the bill. This is the | :40:15. | :40:20. | |
thinking behind amendment three. The amendment details five years of | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
independence from the authority, that could be quite a difficult | :40:27. | :40:33. | |
thing to deliver. If you are the combined authority Manchester, you | :40:34. | :40:35. | |
would have to demonstrate that none of the bigger accountancy firms had | :40:36. | :40:39. | |
dealt with the constituent authorities over the last five | :40:40. | :40:42. | |
years, that could be quite a challenge. But the principle we have | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
here of independence has absolutely been in our thinking as a government | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
from the beginning. It is behind my honourable friend's amendment which | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
I support in principle and that is why I hope that on this basis, you | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
will feel able to withdraw amendment 20 five. On the basis of what he is | :41:02. | :41:09. | |
saying and I am grateful for what he says an amendment 25, would it be | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
possible to include the spirit and essence of 25 in the guidance that | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
the Secretary of State will issue, if he gives an undertaking that | :41:18. | :41:23. | |
would happen, I would be prepared to withdraw 25. I can give my | :41:24. | :41:30. | |
honourable friend that assurance. We will be dealing with the matter of | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
independence in the guidance and it is an absolutely basic principle | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
that independence from the decision-making body will be a | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
criteria for that so I can confirm that for my honourable friend. I | :41:43. | :41:48. | |
thank him for giving way and may I say I am reassured by what he has | :41:49. | :41:54. | |
said this afternoon in rejecting amendment 14 and the other related | :41:55. | :41:58. | |
amendments. Can I ask him to go a little further and give the House a | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
clear commitment that on the guidance and regulation that will | :42:05. | :42:06. | |
come after this bill, the consultation closed last week I | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
think, that the spirit of his remarks today will be carried into | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
those regulations as well. And he will work closely with greater | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
transport -- transport for greater Manchester in terms of regulation | :42:22. | :42:23. | |
and guidance consistent with what he has said today to the House and what | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
is in this bill. I can provide the right honourable gentleman with that | :42:30. | :42:33. | |
assurance. We not seeking to stand in the way here. We a suite of | :42:34. | :42:39. | |
powers were authorities can make decisions for their area and in some | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
case it will be a franchising model. I don't think that will happen in | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
most parts of the country but I know that in some parts and greater | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
Manchester is one, they have indicated much interest in that | :42:54. | :42:59. | |
model. It will not be in our objective is to stand in the way of | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
local authorities choosing what is right for their area. What we want | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
to see is a thriving bus industry with local authorities working with | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
bus operators to deliver a better network with a better deal for | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
passengers to much more passengers on buses. That is our objective in | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
this bill. Amendments for and five, or also tabled by my right | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
honourable friend come at the Secretary of State make clear the | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
precise requirements that a person has to satisfy in order to be | :43:32. | :43:35. | |
appointed as an auditor. What we are proposing these changes in response | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
to a effective representations we have received from a number of | :43:40. | :43:44. | |
members and following meetings I have had personally and the | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
Secretary of State has as well. Conversations on the practicality of | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
the existing provisions with potential auditors. I hope these | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
government amendments, which I will move later on will be broadly | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
supported by members across the House. The aim of amendments 14 and | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
15, again tabled in my honourable friend, the member for North West | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
Norfolk, are to prevent a franchising scheme from proceeding | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
if the passenger benefits it is expected to deliver could be | :44:16. | :44:19. | |
achieved by making a partnership scheme. Again, there is much in his | :44:20. | :44:26. | |
intentions with which I have great sympathy. And I know that my | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
honourable friend the North West Norfolk and the Wimbledon have done | :44:31. | :44:37. | |
a significant job speaking up on behalf passengers and being a voice | :44:38. | :44:41. | |
for passengers in the bus sector for a long period of time. I have to say | :44:42. | :44:47. | |
I do not want to see franchising pursued for any other reason than | :44:48. | :44:51. | |
passenger benefit. Simply not for ideological reasons. This is all to | :44:52. | :44:58. | |
do with benefits for passengers. It has to be a theme which runs through | :44:59. | :45:04. | |
the entire bill. And how we wish to see their experience improved. As I | :45:05. | :45:08. | |
have made clear, the bill already requires a local authority to | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
compare making a franchising scheme to one or more other options. I hope | :45:12. | :45:17. | |
my honourable friend will be reassured that this will be a proper | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
consideration of options available. The draft guidance on which we | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
recently consulted states that identifying realistic options should | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
not be a desk exercise. Authorities should engage with bus operators in | :45:31. | :45:34. | |
the area to see if there is a realistic partnership opposition and | :45:35. | :45:39. | |
that authorities should not dismiss realistic alternatives without | :45:40. | :45:42. | |
detailed assessment. I believe the decision-making apparatus in the | :45:43. | :45:49. | |
bill is appropriate. And an authority on intimate franchising | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
must have satisfied itself following a consultation on its assessment of | :45:54. | :45:57. | |
the options, including bus operators and passenger representatives, that | :45:58. | :46:01. | |
franchising is the right option for its area. Most importantly it should | :46:02. | :46:05. | |
have a clear rationale for that with passengers at its heart. I hope | :46:06. | :46:09. | |
therefore that my honourable friend will feel able to withdraw | :46:10. | :46:14. | |
amendments 14 and 15 in due course. The final set of amendments relating | :46:15. | :46:18. | |
to franchising decisions are also from I honourable friend, amendments | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
26 and 27. Ain't to prevent an authority -- aimed to prevent an | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
authority but not progressed it from making another scheme for a period | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
of five years. Madam Deputy Speaker, I feel that these amendments do | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
rather go against the spirit of devolution. Banning the introduction | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
of a franchising scheme for an arbitrary time period could severely | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
restrict the capacity of an elected mayor or other franchising | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
authorities to take local situations into account and to act accordingly. | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
It could also undermine the democratic process by preventing a | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
new mayor, who is elected within the five-year period, from developing a | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
franchising scheme even if he or she had run on a franchising scheme as | :47:05. | :47:11. | |
part of their manifesto. In practice, if an attempt at a | :47:12. | :47:14. | |
franchise would fail, it is highly unlikely that an authority would | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
seek to make another scheme without devoting a reasonable amount of time | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
to learning the lessons from that experience. Given this, again, I | :47:23. | :47:27. | |
hope my honourable friend will withdraw these amendments. I now | :47:28. | :47:34. | |
have an to consider how much freedom he mayor or local transport | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
authority should have about how they implement franchising in partnership | :47:39. | :47:44. | |
schemes. Amendments six to 13 and new clause four tabled by the | :47:45. | :47:49. | |
honourable gentleman for Gateshead, to seek to limit that freedom. In | :47:50. | :47:55. | |
various ways. As I said in committee, I do not believe | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
mandating the basis on which contracts are procured by local | :47:59. | :48:01. | |
transport authorities or the contents of these contracts is | :48:02. | :48:06. | |
appropriate. But this is exactly what amendment six and nine propose | :48:07. | :48:10. | |
in relation to the terms and conditions of employees. I can | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
assure the honourable member that the power to achieve the outcome | :48:15. | :48:18. | |
that these amendments seek will already rest with the franchising of | :48:19. | :48:22. | |
parity, who will be letting the contracts. Employees and other | :48:23. | :48:27. | |
representative groups will have plenty of opportunity to raise that | :48:28. | :48:30. | |
point during the consultation process for those respective | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
schemes. It might be appropriate in fact to put these proposals to the | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
mayoral candidates for each of our parties. I was a little surprised I | :48:39. | :48:43. | |
have to say, that these amendments have come forward. Because there are | :48:44. | :48:47. | |
some practical concerns about them which we did discuss at the | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
committee stage. For example, it was not clear exactly which terms and | :48:53. | :48:55. | |
conditions would apply. Whether people with different arrangements | :48:56. | :49:00. | |
of transfers and the cost of his proposals could also prove | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
sufficient to prevent some authorities from pursuing a | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
franchising scheme. We look at amendments ten and 13 regarding | :49:10. | :49:10. | |
potential dismissals. I have some sympathy with the | :49:11. | :49:20. | |
intention behind the two subsections concerning Ribot -- redundancies of | :49:21. | :49:29. | |
employees. The scenario they seek to address I think is very unlikely to | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
occur. I very much doubt any employer will choose to dismiss an | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
employee and where the redundancy costs if they are able to transfer | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
them instead. In any event, employment law already deals with | :49:46. | :49:50. | |
the issue of unfair dismissal of employees. I am afraid for the | :49:51. | :49:56. | |
similar reasons I cannot accept amendments seven, eight, 11, and 12. | :49:57. | :50:02. | |
These amendments would broaden the bill's provisions so that | :50:03. | :50:09. | |
projections would my where new operators provide new services | :50:10. | :50:14. | |
sometime after the previous owner ceased. This bill enhances employee | :50:15. | :50:21. | |
protection in certain circumstances and we right balance in this regard | :50:22. | :50:26. | |
and do not believe this provision should be broadened further. One of | :50:27. | :50:29. | |
the first things re-established in preparing this bill was for TP and | :50:30. | :50:38. | |
prevention in prevention of franchising. Mr Deputy Speaker, the | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
honourable member Gateshead proposes through new clause four to require | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
bus operators to subscribe to a confidential reporting system in | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
order to participate in any bus scheme provided under the bill. This | :50:52. | :50:58. | |
would also require operators to collect, monitor rush casualty data | :50:59. | :51:00. | |
and make that data available for publication. Any assure the house | :51:01. | :51:04. | |
that I take the issue of road safety very seriously and although the | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
number of pedestrians killed or seriously injured involving a bus or | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
coach outside London is falling, I don't think we can be in any way | :51:16. | :51:18. | |
complacent. There have been a number of debates on this matter both in | :51:19. | :51:24. | |
committee and in the other place. Although I can agree with the | :51:25. | :51:27. | |
sentiment, the objective of this amendment, I don't believe it is | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
appropriate to mandate that in primary legislation. CFL is given as | :51:34. | :51:39. | |
they don't like I will give way. With the Minister accept, and as a | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
regular bus user I have witnessed this on a number of occasions, | :51:44. | :51:48. | |
injuries can also occur to passengers. This is not about | :51:49. | :51:54. | |
pedestrians or other road users, passengers on buses quite often | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
without the vehicle being involved in any sort of concession cat-macro | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
collision may gain images because the bus might brake abruptly. | :52:04. | :52:06. | |
Surely, the protection of the travelling public on the bus, the | :52:07. | :52:13. | |
customers of the bus operator have a right to some protection from the | :52:14. | :52:17. | |
government in this manager. -- nature. I recognise the point the | :52:18. | :52:25. | |
honourable gentleman says, there is no doubt they can be injured on a | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
bus as a passenger. I am also a regular bus user, and not that | :52:30. | :52:35. | |
that's particularly relevant, having said that, but all of us who action | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
travel upon buses will have potentially seamless, so his point | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
is reasonable, but I don't think that necessarily means that we need | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
to mandate a reporting system in primary legislation will stop TEFL | :52:49. | :52:57. | |
is the main example in reporting and featured in debates and discussed in | :52:58. | :53:03. | |
committee and I understand that TEFL pays the subscription -- TFL Paisley | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
subscription. When the contract came up for renewal, that was extended to | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
buses at no extra cost to TFL. It is a different aspect to every | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
different bus operator subscribing to such a system. As I mentioned | :53:19. | :53:23. | |
when dealing with an intervention from my honourable friend from | :53:24. | :53:26. | |
Basingstoke earlier, there are 30 rail companies in this country, | :53:27. | :53:34. | |
there are 1000 plus bus companies. And we'd also to consider evidence. | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
I have not been made aware of any robust Addison's suggesting that | :53:39. | :53:42. | |
buses introduced in London impact upon safety. If a franchising | :53:43. | :53:47. | |
authority wishes to stimulate a system as part of its conditions, it | :53:48. | :53:55. | |
is free to do so as has kept in London. This could also include bus | :53:56. | :54:01. | |
safety measures as part of this arrangement. I will explore through | :54:02. | :54:07. | |
the guidance how we could encourage operators and local transport | :54:08. | :54:10. | |
authorities to consider the benefits of an independent, confidential | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
reporting system and will probably only limit that to a franchising or | :54:15. | :54:17. | |
partnership scheme to start with but I hope that in light of my comments | :54:18. | :54:24. | |
the honourable gentleman for them Gateshead will be able to withdraw | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
amendments 6-13, and indeed new clause four as well. Mr Deputy | :54:29. | :54:34. | |
Speaker I am sure that you and all of us across the house will be | :54:35. | :54:37. | |
pleased to note that I have been speaking for too long, I am coming | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
to my end, and amendments 28 titles by my honourable friend, my | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
colleague from North West Norfolk, concerning decision-making in | :54:48. | :54:50. | |
enhanced partnership scheme. It would event requirements relating to | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
the way that tickets are purchased or first page, how fares or | :54:55. | :54:58. | |
ticketing arrangements are publicised, and has really matter as | :54:59. | :55:03. | |
to the price being specified in such a scheme unless all parties agree to | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
add. While ticketing is a key element of the proposals in the bill | :55:09. | :55:13. | |
and one of the key principles of the enhanced partnership regime is that | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
it does not require consensus by all operators. Instead affected | :55:18. | :55:24. | |
operators make objects to the enhanced partnership proposals at | :55:25. | :55:26. | |
key points in the process and the authority cannot proceed with the | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
proposals if more than a sufficient number of the operators object. What | :55:32. | :55:35. | |
amounts to that number will be set out in the regulations on which we | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
have recently finished consulting but even inside the objection Megan | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
is are further safeguards to ensure individual operators are treated | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
fairly when ticketing requirements are included in an enhanced | :55:49. | :55:54. | |
partnership scheme. A key one is the ability for any proposals relating | :55:55. | :55:58. | |
to ticketing or any other elements of an enhanced partnership scheme to | :55:59. | :56:01. | |
be subject to scrutiny from the Competition and Markets Authority. | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
They will be a statutory consultees for the proposals. Our draft | :56:06. | :56:11. | |
guidance on in-house partnerships -- enhance partnerships also make sure | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
that all documents ensure they never include a section on condition and | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
her clear advice on how operators can raise concerns at any point | :56:20. | :56:22. | |
during the development or implementation of the scheme. | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
Perhaps most importantly I can reassure the member that the | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
authority making the scheme has to be satisfied that any restrictions | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
on competition is introduced by the enhanced partnership such as the | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
setting of a price or a multi-operator ticket are balanced | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
by the benefit to passengers. The effect on small and medium-sized bus | :56:43. | :56:45. | |
operators should also be taken into account as part of this process and | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
we have built in protection for small to medium-sized operators on | :56:51. | :56:54. | |
the face of the bill by requiring them to be considered whichever | :56:55. | :57:00. | |
regulatory model is chosen. And in the clear, I think these provisions | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
are about fairness not about protecting commercial interests of | :57:05. | :57:08. | |
operators, as bus operators may well prefer their customers to buy an | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
exclusive ticket rather than an open ticket, but that is their commercial | :57:14. | :57:16. | |
interests but not necessarily in the interest of the passenger. If the | :57:17. | :57:22. | |
honourable member's amendment were to be accepted, only one operator | :57:23. | :57:24. | |
would need to put their commercial interests first to block what could | :57:25. | :57:29. | |
be a potential improvement to ticketing for passengers and through | :57:30. | :57:33. | |
that actually grow the entire market in their area. Overall I believe the | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
safeguards I have outlined are enough to ensure that proposals | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
related to taking our fair and businesses, while delivering | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
businesses to passengers. -- benefits to passengers. I hope my | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
honourable friend has found my exhalation reassuring and therefore | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
will not press his amendment. To where I started, Mr Deputy Speaker, | :57:59. | :58:00. | |
I believe the bill already has dishes and making -- decision-making | :58:01. | :58:07. | |
in the right places to make the best outcome for passengers and in doing | :58:08. | :58:11. | |
so delivering on devolution commitments and I trust the house | :58:12. | :58:22. | |
agrees. I would like to think the minister could see his way to | :58:23. | :58:24. | |
actually providing within the guidance to this bill once it | :58:25. | :58:32. | |
becomes an act a reference to the confidential incident reporting and | :58:33. | :58:34. | |
analysis as best practice in the industry but notwithstanding that Mr | :58:35. | :58:41. | |
Deputy Speaker I do not seek to press this any further at this stage | :58:42. | :58:44. | |
and would ask fully from the house to withdraw new clause four and the | :58:45. | :58:51. | |
other amendments in my name, six, seven, eight, nine, ten, 11, 12 and | :58:52. | :58:58. | |
13. Is it your pleasure... Sorry, Sir Henry. Sorry we will comeback. | :58:59. | :59:04. | |
Unless it is a point of order? No? OK. Is it your pleasure that clause | :59:05. | :59:13. | |
four be withdrawn? To move formally... Amendments to death five | :59:14. | :59:20. | |
beer made? As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :59:21. | :59:27. | |
"no". We now come to amendment one, Mr Andy Mac. Mr Zycher, sorry. Who | :59:28. | :59:36. | |
wants to move? Amendment one? They give very much. I rise to speak | :59:37. | :59:49. | |
to amendment one, in my name and the names of my honourable friend the | :59:50. | :59:53. | |
member for Middlesbrough, Birmingham Northfield and North West Durham. | :59:54. | :59:56. | |
Are amendment would remove the section in the bill that bans county | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
and district councils in England are to mind and integrated authorities | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
in England, and transport executives in England to set up companies to | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
provide local services. In short, we seek to overturn the government ban | :00:11. | :00:15. | |
on municipal bus companies. Mr Deputy Speaker this section of the | :00:16. | :00:18. | |
bill is a piece of ideological dogma that has no place in an otherwise | :00:19. | :00:24. | |
agreeable piece of legislation. We have already visited this issue in | :00:25. | :00:27. | |
committee and I fear the government is not minded to budge but I and | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
many others find the government arguments of their extreme the | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
unconvincing. In committee, the Minister said, quote, our view is | :00:36. | :00:39. | |
that passengers will see the most benefit whether commissioning of bus | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
services is kept so -- separate from provision. We don't think that local | :00:46. | :00:49. | |
authorities should provide bus services. On the side of the house | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
we think passengers said see the benefit and we do not agree that | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
municipal bus services cannot be a part of achieving those benefits for | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
passengers. The latest annual transport focus must passenger | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
service was better survey was published last week. It shows | :01:06. | :01:10. | |
municipal bus companies once again provides all the best in the | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
country, both Nottingham city transport and Reading buses, | :01:14. | :01:18. | |
municipal bus companies, both with higher overall satisfaction results | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
than the big five private national bus operators. The government | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
attempted ban on municipal 's flies in the face of the evidence. It also | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
flies in the face of their reported spirit of devolution. They say this | :01:35. | :01:37. | |
bill will provide local authorities with a range of options and tools, | :01:38. | :01:41. | |
and the local authorities are best placed to make a decision about how | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
local bus services are organised and run, that actually is imposing an | :01:45. | :01:49. | |
arbitrary ban on one of those options, not just anyone, but once | :01:50. | :01:52. | |
shown to work very well for passengers. Many of us suspect that | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
this part of the bill is really about pacifying some private bus | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
operators who the Minister wants said are already on a journey here. | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
But without rehashing every pine point from the committee we do not | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
see municipal as Asian and competition as necessary | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
antithetical. In fact, the government undermines their own | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
long-haired admiration by opposing to barriers to the market, to stop | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
bus companies from being able to compete with private bus companies. | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
Is the government afraid that local authority bus run companies might | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
just be better? And the condition commission has reported they have | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
seen no evidence to suggest that they municipal possessor -- operated | :02:34. | :02:37. | |
results condition in the market. I'm very grateful for him to give way, | :02:38. | :02:45. | |
and I think ministers have short memories about how an awful lot of | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
the big bus franchises came about in the first place. Some of those large | :02:49. | :02:53. | |
bus franchise companies were based on old municipal bus companies, sold | :02:54. | :03:01. | |
off at an absolute pittance with their entire interstate bus depots, | :03:02. | :03:06. | |
bus parks, and of course their role in... Their vehicles in sold off for | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
a very, very small amount of money, only to be floated on the markets in | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
a matter of months, for ten times, 15 times, 20 times the value and | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
which they were bought out in the first place. My honourable friend is | :03:22. | :03:27. | |
absolutely right, if you talk to people particularly some who work on | :03:28. | :03:29. | |
the buses for that period, they will feel very aggrieved by that process | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
that has gone through 30 years ago which has left so much of our | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
country with services that were far poorer than the universal coverage | :03:39. | :03:43. | |
that was available at that time. But the competition commission looking | :03:44. | :03:47. | |
at this suggested that municipal companies might be minded to run | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
services and new -- routes making less sense for economic reasons, | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
perhaps unprofitable routes that private operators have been cutting | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
left right and centre, and an Institute of Public policy research | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
has also described public must submit as an innovative transport | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
solution, demonstrating, quote, that conventional operations are not the | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
only option. Sadly this government has its way with this measure, then | :04:12. | :04:21. | |
they soon will be. Are grateful. Would he agree with me that apart | :04:22. | :04:28. | |
from the reasons given by the competition commission, that | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
municipal bus companies can be the benchmark? And in rational debate, | :04:32. | :04:37. | |
we should always be able to get from the government a reason about why | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
when municipal bus companies have performed in an excellent way that | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
they are not allowed and that reason was not forthcoming in committee? I | :04:48. | :04:53. | |
very much agree with my honourable friend. That idea of keeping the | :04:54. | :04:59. | |
market honest is very important. I remember when I was elected a local | :05:00. | :05:02. | |
councillor, the housing officer told me that that was one of the roles of | :05:03. | :05:07. | |
having an in-house operation that kept the market honest. It plays an | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
important role. I will happily give way to my right honourable friend | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
the Nottingham South. I thank him for giving way, one of the reasons | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
that ministers have given for their objection to municipal operations | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
was that it would prevent the market from operating effectively? When we | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
look at the latest bus passenger survey and satisfaction and value | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
for money, is it not interesting to see the Nottingham city transport | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
has the highest value for money of any single operator in the country? | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
My honourable friend consistently makes the case for Nottingham and | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
she is of course, it is made easier by the excellence of the local | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
services she has. People from my own city of Cambridge have been going to | :05:58. | :06:01. | |
Nottingham to see how to do it. Part of the lesson would be that with a | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
municipal, you can do it really well. According to this bill, that | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
will not be possible. I give way to my right honourable friend. I am | :06:10. | :06:17. | |
most grateful, the minister when he spoke before stressed the importance | :06:18. | :06:23. | |
to have really vigorous competition. Isn't it the case that during a | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
franchising process, if one were to be used, the existence of the | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
municipally option owned would enable those doing the franchising | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
to drive an even harder bargain in respect of the public because there | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
would be a fallback option if the private sector couldn't come up with | :06:41. | :06:43. | |
the goods? Would it not enhance competition and enable the passenger | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
transport authority to get an even better deal for the public? I think | :06:49. | :06:57. | |
he is correct yet again. It is very interesting, part of the argument or | :06:58. | :07:02. | |
discussion throughout the committee stage has been about moving | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
competition from on the road to off the road. I think we have agreement | :07:06. | :07:09. | |
on this, an area where there hasn't been competition. But apart from | :07:10. | :07:16. | |
being the -- when you talk to people in London about how competitive the | :07:17. | :07:19. | |
system is, no one on the other side of the House should be worried about | :07:20. | :07:25. | |
lack of competition. My fear, and this is why it is so important that | :07:26. | :07:28. | |
we have protection for the workforce is that competition can risk a race | :07:29. | :07:33. | |
to the bottom if you are not careful. That is why we believe you | :07:34. | :07:37. | |
need those provisions in there. But that is from the debate we have just | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
had. I think the franchising system, would benefit from having municipals | :07:43. | :07:48. | |
involved as an alternative as well. I think we rather conclude that the | :07:49. | :07:51. | |
banning of local authorities from running their own bus companies is | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
slightly unworthy of the spirit behind this bill. The evidence is | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
clear Mr Deputy Speaker, that they work for bus passengers and they are | :08:01. | :08:04. | |
also able to put social values at the heart of what they do. It is | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
this measure in some ways that has drawn the attention of the public | :08:10. | :08:12. | |
more strongly than other parts of the bill. A very strong reaction, | :08:13. | :08:17. | |
quite rightly from councils across the country who don't understand why | :08:18. | :08:20. | |
they should be stopped from doing something that they strongly believe | :08:21. | :08:24. | |
is in the interests of their local constituents. Also from trade | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
unionists who feel strongly about this and from passengers. I pay | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
particular tribute to the organisation who have campaigned | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
very strongly against this particular measure. We believe it is | :08:37. | :08:41. | |
a petty measure and sits uneasily with the rest of the bill and I urge | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
the government to look again and accept our amendment today. The | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
question is that the amendment be made. Wanted to intervene on this | :08:51. | :09:03. | |
amendment. I appreciate the Minister to address my amendments, I have | :09:04. | :09:06. | |
been in this place long enough to know that when in front, you should | :09:07. | :09:11. | |
quit. Because I am very grateful to the Minister for effectively saying | :09:12. | :09:18. | |
that my amendment 25 is going to be incorporated into the guidance. I am | :09:19. | :09:23. | |
also grateful to him for the reassurances given to me on 15 and | :09:24. | :09:29. | |
26 and 27 and 28. There are some useful reassurances there. He said | :09:30. | :09:36. | |
they can indeed be scope for the authorities to be compensated. On | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
that basis, I will be withdrawing those amendments, albeit a touch | :09:40. | :09:47. | |
belatedly, thank you. I would like to support amendment one for the | :09:48. | :09:52. | |
reasons given by my honourable friend. This is all about devolution | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
and local transport authorities deciding what is best for their | :09:58. | :10:01. | |
areas. I see no good reason having been put forward for not allowing | :10:02. | :10:09. | |
the municipal operators as an alternative. The government has | :10:10. | :10:14. | |
talked about conflicts of interest but that cannot be taken seriously. | :10:15. | :10:17. | |
We don't have to look any further than the experience in Nottingham | :10:18. | :10:21. | |
that forward by my honourable friend and what has happened in Reading. | :10:22. | :10:27. | |
There is a perfect ability, and in fact has been done in those areas, | :10:28. | :10:32. | |
for the proper distance to be made between the local authority as a | :10:33. | :10:36. | |
local authority and the an operator in terms of letting out franchises. | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
This bill is about giving more local choice. And I think it is entirely | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
unjustifiable to remove the option of having a municipal operator from | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
local authorities. The department have found a way to put forward | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
quite complex regulations in relation to franchising but it still | :10:58. | :11:01. | |
has concerns about this topic, those same regulations could be brought | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
forward in relation to setting up municipal bus operations so I urge | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
the government to think again. I am speaking in support of amendment | :11:13. | :11:17. | |
one. We have a long discussion on this issue in committee and I also | :11:18. | :11:22. | |
spoke then and at second reading about the success of Nottingham's | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
municipal operator. So much as I love Nottingham city transport, I | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
will restrain myself today. However, I do continue to question the | :11:32. | :11:34. | |
government's motivation for its determination to ban local transport | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
authorities, establishing new municipal bus companies. Ministers | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
have simply not made the case for such a ban. The transport select | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
committee, I honourable friend, he chairs it so well and he described | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
it as a disproportionate response. It is quite clearly anti-localism | :12:00. | :12:02. | |
and is preventing councils from acting in the best interests of | :12:03. | :12:09. | |
their residents. In committee, the minister said there should be a | :12:10. | :12:12. | |
split between the commissioning and provision of bus services. And I | :12:13. | :12:16. | |
don't disagree with him on that point. But this ban goes far beyond | :12:17. | :12:22. | |
that. It was noted in committee that local authorities with municipal | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
operators have proved themselves very capable of managing just such a | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
split when tendering for supported services. The Minister also | :12:31. | :12:38. | |
suggested in committee that the existence of municipal bus | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
operators, and I quote "Could easily deter investment from the private | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
sector." But when I asked him what evidence he was drawing on in making | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
such an assertion, he admitted "Of course we do not have any evidence | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
for it, I am just looking at what the risks may be." I'm afraid that | :12:57. | :13:02. | |
the Minister's risk aversion is simply unnecessary and can be shown | :13:03. | :13:11. | |
to be such. Has already said, Nottingham has an excellent | :13:12. | :13:14. | |
municipal operator but it does not deter private investment. The | :13:15. | :13:18. | |
honourable member for Newark mentioned, we have an excellent | :13:19. | :13:20. | |
private sector operator in Nottinghamshire. Such as Trent | :13:21. | :13:26. | |
Barton. I hope that even at this late stage, the government will | :13:27. | :13:30. | |
rethink its commitment to what I can only describe as an ideological | :13:31. | :13:38. | |
obsession and take this opportunity to end their unreasonable position | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
and accept amendment number one. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. This | :13:46. | :13:51. | |
amendment, tabled by the honourable gentleman for Cambridge and | :13:52. | :13:54. | |
Middlesbrough would effectively totally remove clause 20 two. And we | :13:55. | :13:58. | |
did indeed debate this at some length in committee. I want to | :13:59. | :14:04. | |
reiterate that the existing municipal bus companies, such as | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
Nottingham city buses or Blackpool buses, while others around the | :14:10. | :14:16. | |
country, and there are several in ASBO bus companies in this company | :14:17. | :14:22. | |
-- in this country, deliver a high standard of service and I think that | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
will continue. Their ability to do so is not affected by this cause -- | :14:27. | :14:32. | |
clause. The tools in the bill will provide authorities with more | :14:33. | :14:35. | |
influence over bus services than they currently have now. And | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
striking the right balance between local authority influence on the | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
role the private sector bus operator can play is important. Our view is | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
that passengers would be -- see the most benefit with the commissioning | :14:48. | :14:52. | |
of services is kept separate and as such we do not think that | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
authorities should be able to set up new bus companies. We have seen | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
innovations from the private sector which I think have been very | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
encouraging. The introduction of smart cards, the installation of | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
Wi-Fi and increased access ability in the bus network has all been | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
delivered through private sector investment. These improvements show | :15:17. | :15:22. | |
overall the industry is always innovating and delivering a good | :15:23. | :15:29. | |
deal for its passengers. I am grateful to the Minister, he will be | :15:30. | :15:32. | |
aware that over the last exam the half years, local authorities up and | :15:33. | :15:36. | |
down the country have seen significant reductions and ongoing | :15:37. | :15:39. | |
reductions in their revenue support grant. Ministers from communities | :15:40. | :15:46. | |
and local government have always been encouraging local authorities | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
to be entrepreneurial and enterprising and to go out there and | :15:50. | :15:53. | |
earn money to back Phil where the revenue support grant is once | :15:54. | :15:59. | |
existed. By this measure, the Minister is precluding local | :16:00. | :16:03. | |
authorities from doing just that. I recognise what the honourable | :16:04. | :16:08. | |
gentleman says but it is also fair to say that no local authority has | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
set up a municipal bus company and no local authority has approached me | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
with a view to setting one up either. In some ways this is a | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
slightly notional or theoretical debate. What we are seeking to do in | :16:21. | :16:25. | |
the Bill... Making sure we get clarity is the entire point here. | :16:26. | :16:30. | |
This bill seeks to balance between local authority influence, providing | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
them with a variety of tools to address local issues, and the role | :16:34. | :16:37. | |
that private sector bus operators can show to ensure both are | :16:38. | :16:42. | |
incentivised to deliver the very best services for passengers. This | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
bill is about local authorities and commercial bus operators working | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
together to improve local bus services. It is about cooperation, | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
all designed to improve the benefits for bus passengers and I hope this | :16:58. | :17:00. | |
has made the government position clear and that the honourable | :17:01. | :17:02. | |
gentleman will not press this amendment. Thank you Mr Deputy | :17:03. | :17:10. | |
Speaker, I think the Minister finally let the cat out of the bag. | :17:11. | :17:14. | |
If there hasn't been a queue of local authorities coming to him, | :17:15. | :17:17. | |
then he doesn't really need to legislate a ban. It is pure | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
ideology. There has been a great deal of agreement on this bill. | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
There is lots of common ground that we have found. But on this, I can | :17:27. | :17:30. | |
perhaps assure the wider world there is clear red water between the | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
benches and we will clearly press it to a division and it will be | :17:35. | :17:37. | |
achieved in future by a Labour government. The question is that | :17:38. | :17:43. | |
amendment one be made, those in agreement, say ayes, the country, | :17:44. | :17:44. | |
no. The vision, clear the lobbies. The country, no. Tell us for the | :17:45. | :19:03. | |
ayes. Order! Order. The eyes to the right, | :19:04. | :29:27. | |
one of naked. The noes to the left, 276. | :29:28. | :29:33. | |
The eyes to the rise, 188. The noes to the left, 276 stop the noes have | :29:34. | :29:46. | |
it, the noes have it. Unlock! Unlock! Consideration completed. I | :29:47. | :29:49. | |
will now suspend the house for no more than five minutes in order to | :29:50. | :29:53. | |
make a decision about certification. The division bells will be run two | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
minutes for the house resumes. Following my certification the | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
government will be tabling the appropriate consent motion, copies | :30:04. | :30:05. | |
of which will be available shortly in the vote office. They will be | :30:06. | :30:10. | |
distributed by the doorkeepers. Order, order. | :30:11. | :35:08. | |
Order, order! I can now inform the house about my set that a decision | :35:09. | :35:15. | |
about my certification. ATL, subsection J, I have certified the | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
following provisions related to the bus provision in England and within | :35:23. | :35:24. | |
devolved legislative competence. Causes one, 3-7, nine to 14, 16 and | :35:25. | :35:36. | |
18-22 of and scheduled to and to the bill, as amended in the public bill | :35:37. | :35:39. | |
committee, copies of certificates available on the vote office. | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
Understanding order and under 83 M, a consent motion is therefore | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
required for the bill to proceed. Does the Minister intends to move a | :35:50. | :35:56. | |
consent motion? A simple nod of the head would suffice. The Minister | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
said it with elegance and charm. Under standing order 83 M, the House | :36:01. | :36:17. | |
shall forthwith resolve itself into the legislative grand committee, | :36:18. | :36:18. | |
England. Order, order. Gray I remind honourable members | :36:19. | :36:46. | |
that if there is a division, only members representing constituencies | :36:47. | :36:49. | |
in England may vote on the consent motion. Ichor and minister to move | :36:50. | :36:56. | |
the consent motion. The question is to legislative and committee | :36:57. | :37:03. | |
encloses one, three to seven, nine to 14, 16 and 18, 222 of and | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
scheduled to the bus services bill as amended in the public bill | :37:10. | :37:18. | |
committee. As many of that opinion, say I macro, the country, no, the | :37:19. | :37:26. | |
eye of the macro have it. -- the ayes have it. | :37:27. | :37:47. | |
Order. I begged to report, 16 and 18, two, 22, the passage made by the | :37:48. | :38:09. | |
House. Third reading, now. Please continue with the third reading. I | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
beg to move that the bill be now read for a third time. I am grateful | :38:14. | :38:18. | |
to all of those honourable members who have engaged so constructively | :38:19. | :38:22. | |
with the passage of this bill and demonstrated their shared commitment | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
to improving bus services and increasing bus passenger numbers. | :38:26. | :38:30. | |
Buses are already England's most used former public transport, 4.5 | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
billion passenger journeys every year. Vital to our economy and it | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
connect to schools, hospitals and leisure and are used by people of | :38:43. | :38:46. | |
all ages. That is why this bill has bus passengers at its heart. It | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
allows local authorities and operators measures to row passenger | :38:52. | :38:56. | |
numbers. This is therefore an enabling Bill. Fundamentally it is | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
about improving bus services for passengers. It recognises the need | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
for local solutions to local transport problems. By working | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
together, local authorities and operators can tackle key transport | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
issues such as pollution and congestion. They can support local | :39:16. | :39:19. | |
businesses and help drive a local economy. This bill introduces a | :39:20. | :39:22. | |
range of tools that will achieve these aims. Built upon the success | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
of partnership working, local authorities and operators can agree | :39:29. | :39:31. | |
the standard of services in a particular area. This could include | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
multi-operator tickets, better connections between transport modes | :39:37. | :39:39. | |
and improved vehicle standards, order which will drive an increase | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
in bus usage and increased performance. Mr Deputy Speaker, I | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
should also emphasise that this bill, part of this bill has been | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
widely welcomed by local authorities and operators as well as honourable | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
members. Of course, it is not the only opportunity this bill brings. | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
It will also bring the opportunity to refresh powers were local | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
authorities to franchise, delivering on our evolution agenda. It is only | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
right that our larger cities should have the opportunity to make a | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
franchising success away TfL have in London. Privatising will not be for | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
everyone and authorities must have a compelling case to implement such a | :40:22. | :40:28. | |
scheme. I am of the firm Bill that -- a firm belief that this bill will | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
offer a better standard of bus services. Between states automatic | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
franchising powers to Merrill combined authorities. -- may role. | :40:36. | :40:44. | |
It will maintain the private sector investment we have seen in the past | :40:45. | :40:49. | |
market. In addition, the requirement of an independent auditor as part of | :40:50. | :40:52. | |
the assessment for franchising schemes will ensure a scheme is only | :40:53. | :40:57. | |
lamented with proper scrutiny. A necessity to buy separate tickets or | :40:58. | :41:01. | |
to pay with cash when travelling by bus can be both frustrating and | :41:02. | :41:06. | |
costly. Authorities will therefore have improved advanced ticketing | :41:07. | :41:09. | |
powers to create multi-operated ticketing schemes that cover not | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
only buses but other modes of transport such as tram or vital | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
rail. They can also make use of emerging technologies like | :41:19. | :41:20. | |
contactless and Bluetooth ticketing. The bill will make it easier for | :41:21. | :41:24. | |
passengers to access information on timetables, fares and roots. App | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
developers will be encouraged to make innovative products that will | :41:31. | :41:33. | |
make this information available to passengers. I firmly believe that | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
these improvements will deliver significant benefits to passengers | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
and through that, attract more people onto our public transport. I | :41:41. | :41:45. | |
now turn to the accessibility improvements that this bill will | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
deliver. Indeed, this is the one element which I think has attracted | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
more public attention than any other. It has certainly dominated | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
more than any other by a factor of many times. Many times my inbox. | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
That is the audiovisual provision introduced in the other place. This | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
will ensure that bus services in England, Wales and Scotland are | :42:10. | :42:13. | |
accessible to those with a hearing or site disability and at the same | :42:14. | :42:17. | |
time provide valuable information to all passengers. I know from personal | :42:18. | :42:20. | |
experience in London and elsewhere and how important next stop | :42:21. | :42:23. | |
announcements have been when travelling. All passengers will | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
benefit from this significant improvement. Mr Deputy Speaker, I | :42:28. | :42:33. | |
want to see the bus market thrive and encourage more people onto | :42:34. | :42:38. | |
public transport. As I said at the beginning of the speech, it will | :42:39. | :42:42. | |
have significant benefits for the environment, congestion and the | :42:43. | :42:46. | |
local authority. We are seeking to reverse a decline in bus usage and | :42:47. | :42:51. | |
put passengers at the heart of bus services. I wish to thank all | :42:52. | :42:54. | |
honourable members who having gauged and contributed to this bill, | :42:55. | :42:58. | |
especially those on the Bill committee. I would also like to | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
thank the committee clerks and our Parliamentary Counsel for all of | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
their work. I would also particular like to thank my team within the | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
Department. A significant amount of work, hard work has got us to this | :43:12. | :43:16. | |
point. We have a good bill, it has been welcomed widely. It reflects | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
the importance of buses in local communities. We want to see the bus | :43:22. | :43:25. | |
industry thrive. That is what has driven this bill and I commend it to | :43:26. | :43:30. | |
the House. The question is the Bill be read a third time. I would like | :43:31. | :43:36. | |
to pick up where the minister left off and thank everyone who has | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
contributed to this bill. Especially my honourable friend who served on | :43:42. | :43:43. | |
the public Bill committee and of course pay to be to the wonderful | :43:44. | :43:47. | |
work of the transport select committee and everything they have | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
done in this matter. I would like to think -- thank the staff of | :43:52. | :43:54. | |
honourable members, particular Juliet eels who is soon to leave the | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
shadow transport team and her contributions have been invaluable | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
throughout the passage of this bill. This bill is ultimately underlined | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
by broad consensus which has been reflected in the generally cordial | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
spirit of our debates. At its heart, Mr Deputy Speaker, the bus services | :44:13. | :44:16. | |
Bill offers local authorities the opportunity to improve the way buses | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
are run in their areas. Should they choose to take it. This is something | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
we have fought over for many years. First through legislation 17 years | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
ago which failed to make the impact we had hoped and from opposition | :44:30. | :44:35. | |
benches for seven years. Sadly since 2010, we have heard time and again | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
of bus routes being axed and constituents campaigning hard to | :44:41. | :44:44. | |
keep their vital local bus service. Disabled people, job-seekers and | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
students unable to afford the rocketing cost of travel. We have | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
heard these issues and we have fought for a revision of the market | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
to give local areas the power and flexibility to control their bus | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
services as local circumstances best allow. So while we don't think this | :45:03. | :45:07. | |
will is perfect, and we certainly don't think it is a silver bullet | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
that will fix the bus system across the country, there is much to be | :45:12. | :45:16. | |
positive about. Male combined authorities may be -- authorities | :45:17. | :45:23. | |
with a local mayor Ken increased parity between areas like greater | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
Manchester and London. We have fought to ensure that those powers | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
can be accessed without delay and that the process for bringing in | :45:32. | :45:35. | |
those powers will be clear and free from hidden barriers. We had hoped | :45:36. | :45:41. | |
that all areas of the country would have access to those powers whether | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
they have an elected mayor or not but we will have to continue that | :45:45. | :45:51. | |
argument for another day. The Bill provides new partnership options to | :45:52. | :45:54. | |
local authorities working alongside bus operators. We hope local | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
authorities will be encouraged to use these new tools in order to | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
improve journey times and vehicle standards and to consequently reduce | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
congestion. Which are huge environmental and health issues | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
affecting us all. The bill also gives the Secretary of State powers | :46:13. | :46:17. | |
to make regulations requiring buses providing local services to have in | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
place audiovisual information systems. We were so pleased that the | :46:23. | :46:25. | |
government included provision following strong pressure from | :46:26. | :46:30. | |
Labour and the other place and an excellent campaign from the guide | :46:31. | :46:33. | |
dogs Association. That section could make a real difference to people's | :46:34. | :46:39. | |
lives. What is missing, stronger employment protections. Clearer | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
access ability provisions. Bus safety improvements. We have fought | :46:46. | :46:49. | |
for these and won the argument and we have lost the votes. That is the | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
tragedy of being in opposition. This bill could have been better and we | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
were disappointed by the lack of movement from the government in | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
these areas. So Mr Deputy Speaker, the bus services Bill isn't perfect | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
but it will go some way to reversing the damage of deregulation that we | :47:05. | :47:10. | |
have fought to fix for three decades. Going some way to reversing | :47:11. | :47:14. | |
the damage is better than going nowhere at all. For that reason and | :47:15. | :47:19. | |
on the half of all those constituents waiting at bus stops | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
right now, we will be supporting this bill at third reading today. | :47:23. | :47:30. | |
Many thanks Mr Deputy Speaker for calling me to make, I assure the | :47:31. | :47:34. | |
House is a brief contribution on this important piece of legislation. | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
I believe that the partnership provisions in this bill are very | :47:39. | :47:43. | |
welcome. They are very important. The reason I hold that view is | :47:44. | :47:47. | |
because I believe partnership working between local authorities | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
and private sector bus companies have delivered a whole range of | :47:52. | :47:53. | |
improvements for passengers in many parts of the country. I think the | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
goal of government here should be to really focus on encouraging that | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
kind of cooperation where the business acumen and expertise of the | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
private sector can work alongside the local understanding and | :48:09. | :48:11. | |
commitment of local authorities. So I think those provisions in the Bill | :48:12. | :48:19. | |
are very welcome. And I also recognise the that during the | :48:20. | :48:23. | |
passage of this bill we have heard a number of examples, positive | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
examples in different parts of the country such as Brighton, where | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
partnerships between private sector operators and local authorities have | :48:31. | :48:32. | |
had a transformative and positive effect on services. I regret that I | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
was not able to be here for the debate on the amendments tabled by | :48:40. | :48:44. | |
myself and the Right Honourable member for North West Norfolk. But I | :48:45. | :48:47. | |
very much welcome the assurances given by the Minister on a number of | :48:48. | :48:52. | |
those amendments. And a recognition of the importance of a number of the | :48:53. | :48:58. | |
principles contained in those amendments. And in particular I | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
would urge the Minister to take seriously the objectives of | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
amendments 14 and 15 and I hope that it will be very clearly set out in | :49:08. | :49:13. | |
the guidance which is issued on this legislation, that franchising scheme | :49:14. | :49:16. | |
is should be a last resort. And would only be approved if | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
partnership working will not deliver the benefits for passengers which | :49:23. | :49:23. | |
are sought. I also work the support for the | :49:24. | :49:33. | |
amendment to come mentoring those who audit a franchise assessment | :49:34. | :49:37. | |
properly independent. I think that significantly strengthens the bill I | :49:38. | :49:41. | |
think it would be very unfortunate if those assessing the, those | :49:42. | :49:47. | |
checking out franchise assessment were not independent of local | :49:48. | :49:49. | |
authorities, essentially making decisions making an franchise in | :49:50. | :49:56. | |
authorities. I also believe the man wants to return to a theme I talked | :49:57. | :49:59. | |
at some length about in the second reading debate. I hope the | :50:00. | :50:04. | |
government will do everything it can to facilitate certainty within the | :50:05. | :50:11. | |
private sector bus operators market. Because that certainty is a key to | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
investment in new fleets, in better ticketing measures, and a range of | :50:16. | :50:21. | |
passenger improvements. Anything that leads to uncertainty could | :50:22. | :50:27. | |
jeopardise investment and that would have a negative effect on passengers | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
and I particularly have in mind the importance of delivering smart | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
ticketing because of course that is crucial for the convenience of | :50:37. | :50:38. | |
passengers but also in persuading passengers that the bus can be more | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
often an attractive and a viable alternative to the car. I believe | :50:45. | :50:52. | |
this... There is a certain irony in that it is a Conservative government | :50:53. | :50:55. | |
is taking to this bill which is of course as a house is aware does | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
partially rolled back one of the major privatisations of the Thatcher | :51:01. | :51:06. | |
era, I know that there are mixed views on the role of the private | :51:07. | :51:12. | |
sector bus operators in delivering transport services, but I do believe | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
that they have brought significant benefits for passengers, and I hope | :51:16. | :51:21. | |
nothing in this bill allows to jeopardise the blinds on the | :51:22. | :51:23. | |
expertise and investment that the private sector has brought the bus | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
operations over the years. I'm afraid I'm about to conclude but he | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
will get his chance very soon, and I would close just by once again | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
thanking the Minister for his assurances that he takes seriously | :51:40. | :51:43. | |
the points raised in the amendments, by commending the partnership | :51:44. | :51:47. | |
working between the private sector and local authorities which is one | :51:48. | :51:51. | |
of the best ways to deliver improvements for passengers. Thank | :51:52. | :51:57. | |
you Mr Deputy Speaker. This bill is a very important step in achieving a | :51:58. | :52:04. | |
modern, thriving bus sector and I welcome the bell and in doing so I | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
do pay tribute to the Minister and his colleagues as to the Shadow team | :52:10. | :52:13. | |
for the work they have done and I would also like to commend all the | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
members of the transport select committee for the Merc that they did | :52:19. | :52:25. | |
in its scrutinising this bill. Some points brought forward not acted | :52:26. | :52:28. | |
upon have been considered, and I think this is a better bill. I first | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
spoke on this matter a very long time ago, when bus deregulation was | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
first introduced, through the bill, in 1985. I was in fact at the time | :52:43. | :52:47. | |
either of Lancashire County Council and I opposed the bill very strongly | :52:48. | :52:51. | |
at that stage because I was concerned it would result in a | :52:52. | :52:54. | |
reduction in bus patronage outside of London. I think the intervening | :52:55. | :53:00. | |
years have indeed shown me that is the case. This bill does not repeal | :53:01. | :53:06. | |
the act but it does make substantial changes to it and I very much | :53:07. | :53:11. | |
welcome them. A thriving and comprehensive bus network across | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
England is not an optional extra that is an absolute necessity, and | :53:16. | :53:20. | |
the basic principle of the bill, but there should be more devolution and | :53:21. | :53:23. | |
that local transport authorities should decide what is best for their | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
areas is vital, and I welcome its very much. Although I am | :53:29. | :53:33. | |
disappointed that in some areas the government have not gone as far as I | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
wish they had gone, I do welcome the bill as we have it now, and I also | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
welcome the provisions on accessibility of buses in the bill, | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
particularly access and information for people who are impaired. Of | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
course, as information about buses, bus services, and the operation of | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
individual buses is made more accessible to people who may have a | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
disability, everybody in fact benefits from that as well, and | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
improvement of the bus sector as a whole. I will end Mr Deputy Speaker | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
by saying tank you to everybody who has been involved in this, I think | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
the bill makes major strides in producing better bus services for | :54:15. | :54:18. | |
the people of this country, both for those people who currently use | :54:19. | :54:22. | |
buses, and for those who I hope in the future will do so. I am pleased | :54:23. | :54:26. | |
to support the third reading of the bill. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. | :54:27. | :54:32. | |
Bus services are the mainstay of the public transport system, and yet | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
historically they have had comparatively very little attention | :54:39. | :54:41. | |
given to them by this house, so I am pleased that this bill gives to | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
correct that. And I want to congratulate the secretary of State, | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
the Minister, and indeed the government for the way in which they | :54:52. | :54:56. | |
have stuck to the terms of the devolution deal and delivered a bill | :54:57. | :55:00. | |
which I believe will bring real benefits to the travelling public in | :55:01. | :55:03. | |
Greater Manchester and beyond, I correct in late May and front bench | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
for the way they have engaged constructively in this debate, too, | :55:08. | :55:11. | |
and I also think it is appropriate for me to congratulate the leaders | :55:12. | :55:16. | |
of councils in Greater Manchester. This bill was a clear demand from | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
the Labour leaders in Greater Manchester as part of the devolution | :55:21. | :55:25. | |
deal that was struck with the former Chancellor of the Exchequer, so it | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
is in effect as they think the right honourable lady was hinting about | :55:31. | :55:35. | |
the -- a moment ago, a label bill, and proudly deny Greater Manchester | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
bill, and in that sense we take great pride in this bill clearing | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
the third reading in the house tonight. I want to pay particular | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
tribute to my. I will give way. My honourable friend is making a very | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
interesting speech but I had to think he shouldn't put bad ideas and | :55:56. | :55:59. | |
the government mind, they might read and vote against it. A partnership | :56:00. | :56:07. | |
Bill, if that makes him feel a bit more at ease. Certainly, a rare | :56:08. | :56:10. | |
example of common-sense breaking out across both sides of the house. I | :56:11. | :56:16. | |
want is to pay particular tribute to my honourable friend, the member for | :56:17. | :56:21. | |
Liverpool Riverside because I she said moments ago, she has | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
consistently spoken of the damaging effects of gusty regulation, the | :56:26. | :56:31. | |
free for all, the declining quality of service, the increase in fares | :56:32. | :56:34. | |
that people experience, she has been consistent and she is vindicated | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
tonight at this bill finally go through this house, as is my other | :56:39. | :56:42. | |
honourable friend the member for Blackley and brought in Hutu | :56:43. | :56:46. | |
throughout the years, and including under the Labour government and I | :56:47. | :56:49. | |
made this argument and has waited long to see this bill come to pass. | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
I can say that if I am to be successful in a new role that ICI | :56:57. | :56:59. | |
will be seeking to use the powers in this bill for the benefit of the | :57:00. | :57:02. | |
travelling public in Greater Manchester. For 32 years, we have | :57:03. | :57:07. | |
had a service in Greater Manchester run in the private, vested interest, | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
rather than the public interest. Only last week a whole new series of | :57:12. | :57:15. | |
service alterations were announced that will decrease the quality and | :57:16. | :57:20. | |
coverage of services across Greater Manchester with no real ability for | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
those community to challenge those decisions. Well, that way of running | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
bus services is coming to an end. I thank him for giving way, and I'm | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
enjoying his speech. Does he agree with me that country to what the | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
right Honourable Lady opposite said, this bill to enhance competition, | :57:35. | :57:40. | |
and enhance the role the private sector plays by having really | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
effective competition off the road in the way there on Road competition | :57:44. | :57:47. | |
has not for passengers? I beg it is absolutely the point, that if you | :57:48. | :57:53. | |
construct a franchise process that can really puts the public interest | :57:54. | :57:58. | |
first, and then ask the private sector to meet that public interest, | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
that will be a better system, indeed a system that the right honourable | :58:03. | :58:06. | |
system Lady's constituents will benefit from in London, and I make | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
the point again why does she think it is OK for her constituents but | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
seeks to deny to others? I don't think that's unacceptable position | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
for her to take will stop obviously I don't want to go back over the | :58:20. | :58:22. | |
whole debate we had on this but there are a whole range of ways in | :58:23. | :58:28. | |
which the bus sector is very different in London, not least is | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
the fact that Londoners paid millions of pounds in congestion | :58:33. | :58:35. | |
charges would support the bus network. That is one of the major | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
reasons why bus services in London are different to the rest of the | :58:40. | :58:42. | |
country, not necessarily regulatory structure that makes the difference. | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
I think that is the kind of London centric argument that gets this has | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
a bad name, if I'm honest will stop its different, therefore it needs | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
different rules, it needs all the extra attention. If it works here, | :58:55. | :59:00. | |
why can it not work in a city region like the West Midlands, like a | :59:01. | :59:05. | |
Merseyside, or indeed lie Greater Manchester? If the principles are | :59:06. | :59:09. | |
good ones, delivering a good bus service for people here, then surely | :59:10. | :59:13. | |
they should be extended to other major cities of our country, and | :59:14. | :59:18. | |
those decisions should be devolved. If I am to be in a position to use | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
the powers in this bill Mr Deputy Speaker I would use them to bring | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
fares down the affairs are much more expensive in Greater Manchester than | :59:27. | :59:29. | |
they are in London, for instance. I would use them to increase and | :59:30. | :59:34. | |
improve disability access, including a the derision. I would improve the | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
way for an integrated ticketing system, we are currently denied an | :59:41. | :59:43. | |
Oyster style system, because of the free for all, using different set | :59:44. | :59:47. | |
across operators, and I would like to provide a reliable service for | :59:48. | :59:54. | |
all communities, and I would introduce a free bus pass for all | :59:55. | :00:00. | |
16-18 -year-olds. I will give way. I am wondering whether my honourable | :00:01. | :00:04. | |
friend would actually just news for a moment why it is that the same | :00:05. | :00:10. | |
companies who operate in London are making twice as much profits on | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
routes that they operate in places like Tyne Wear or in Greater | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
Manchester? The same countries with a operating profit in the two | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
different places is twice as much, outside London, then it is here. | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
Dissemble, we have an unregulated system, effectively and because of | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
that they are able to increase fares. Increased faster than in | :00:33. | :00:38. | |
London, so that is exactly how they make those profits, there are good | :00:39. | :00:41. | |
bus operators out of that. I wouldn't want to punish them or have | :00:42. | :00:49. | |
a smaller operator, a brilliant bus operator in my constituency, you | :00:50. | :00:52. | |
would want those operators to be part of their regime, but it is | :00:53. | :00:56. | |
valuable time on the profiteering off the backs of the travelling | :00:57. | :00:58. | |
public in places like Greater Manchester. Mr Deputy Speaker, in | :00:59. | :01:06. | |
conclusion, the declining quality and the rise in cost of bus travel | :01:07. | :01:10. | |
in places like Greater Manchester has over the 32 years since buses | :01:11. | :01:13. | |
were deregulated but more and more cars on the road, to the point where | :01:14. | :01:19. | |
conurbations like Greater Manchester are becoming increasingly congested. | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
As I said earlier, is cheaper for young people in parts of Greater | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
Manchester to get a taxi and it is for them, four of them, to use a bus | :01:27. | :01:33. | |
service. That cannot possibly make sense and that tells you that | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
seriously believe that something is seriously wrong here with the way | :01:37. | :01:42. | |
the system operates. The people of Greater Manchester and I say again, | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
deserve a bus system equally as good as London, if not better. That is | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
what using this bill we will now seek to deliver. The question is | :01:50. | :01:57. | |
that the bill now be read a third time, as many of the decision, ayes? | :01:58. | :02:05. | |
The ayes added. Point of order. Thank you very much. On Monday last | :02:06. | :02:10. | |
week I asked for an emergency debate under banning order 24 and I don't | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
seek to reapply for this debate. Last week Mr 's biggest set he would | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
hope and anticipate that the usual channels would find time to make it. | :02:18. | :02:23. | |
Mr Deputy Speaker, business collapsed at 435 last Tuesday, it is | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
finishing at seven 43 tonight. It is a logical to me and everybody is | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
watching elsewhere, can you advise Mr Deputy Speaker how I can get a | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
debate on the significant surgeons believe Africans as I still have | :02:37. | :02:41. | |
about the two child policy, and before it is permitted in two days' | :02:42. | :02:46. | |
time. If now is at the time, when is? It's not a matter for the chair | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
but a matter for the government, the one thing is that it is definitely | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
on the record and I would hope that usual channels would have picked up | :02:55. | :03:00. | |
the comments now made. With the leave of the housework I would like | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
to do is put motions to-7 together, so with leave of your pleasant... | :03:05. | :03:09. | |
The question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. The ayes have it. Motion | :03:13. | :03:21. | |
number eight on EU Turkey migration, and Schengen free movement. The | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
ministers move. The question is as on the order paper. As many as are | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. The ayes have it. | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
We come to motion number nine on sittings in Westminster Hall. Sir | :03:34. | :03:40. | |
Michael to move. Macro I beg to move formally, Mr Deputy Speaker. The | :03:41. | :03:43. | |
question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no".. The ayes have it. I beg to move that the | :03:47. | :03:55. | |
house now adjourns. The question is the house now adjourns. Thank you | :03:56. | :04:05. | |
very much Mr Deputy Speaker. Sao -- Sao sub Shields has a proud maritime | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
history. South Shields used to be the centre | :04:09. | :04:26. | |
of the universe for the Maritime universe -- industry. The time of | :04:27. | :04:34. | |
this. It provided seafarers in our local area with a range of vital | :04:35. | :04:36. | |
services. The maritime and coastguard agency | :04:37. | :05:09. | |
's consultation on the future of the Tyne office stated that the office | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
would close by September this year. Yet, it closed on the 6th of March | :05:15. | :05:21. | |
with the lease expiring just a week later. A move supported by the | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
government's maritime growth study. I accept that some alternative | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
provision has now been made at South Tyneside College for an initial | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
period of five years. But that move has seen a depletion in crucial | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
parts of the service so not only was the office closed ahead of schedule | :05:41. | :05:44. | |
but what is in place quite frankly does not fit the bill. The new | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
office will not have on-site surveyors, nor will it have a | :05:49. | :05:53. | |
counter service. The 18 surveyors have been redeployed in the flexible | :05:54. | :05:58. | |
customer focused way the government believes to be an essential strand | :05:59. | :06:02. | |
in its plans for maritime growth. The consultation proposed for | :06:03. | :06:08. | |
surveyors to put in place a remote IT enabled working regime to | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
minimise any adverse impact. This will be based around surveyors | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
working remotely from other suitable locations or from home. This is now | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
in practice. But I wonder if the Minister will be able to advise me | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
when the new IT system for remote working will begin to be used by the | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
surveyors. It is important that Port and in the north-east and the north | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
and that taxpayers know how much that procurement exercise will cost | :06:42. | :06:47. | |
in order to balance it against the estimated 330,000 annual savings the | :06:48. | :06:52. | |
MCA will make from these marine -- Marine office closures. The loss of | :06:53. | :07:01. | |
the office has left the 350 mile stretch of UK coastline between | :07:02. | :07:03. | |
Aberdeen and Bridlington with no physical base for surveyors required | :07:04. | :07:12. | |
to inspect and if necessary detain a diverse range of UK and | :07:13. | :07:17. | |
internationally registered shipping. Its loss has increased the prospect | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
of private sector carrying out port state control work at ports where a | :07:21. | :07:26. | |
surveyor may not be available at short notice. This was recognised by | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
some local RMT members in the north-east to make their feelings | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
clear to the government and to the MCA. Stating that the closure of the | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
Port of Tyne office and the office and Bridlington will open the | :07:41. | :07:44. | |
north-east coast to be exploited by shipping companies when inspectors | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
are working from home and do not have a centre to coordinate their | :07:50. | :07:53. | |
inspections and monitor shipping movements across the north-east | :07:54. | :07:59. | |
coast. Mr Deputy Speaker, in November 2013, a Panama registered | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
ship called the Donald Duck Ling was detained in the Tyne by surveyors. | :08:05. | :08:11. | |
The vessel, over 46,000 tonnes was found to be unsafe and crude by 18 | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
Filipino seafarers who had run out of food. The vessel owners then | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
abandoned the ship and the crew and they were stranded on the vessel | :08:23. | :08:26. | |
without pay and reliant on international freight transport and | :08:27. | :08:31. | |
our brilliant South Shields mission for seafarers to survive. The crew | :08:32. | :08:37. | |
had to wait nearly a year before receiving any pay and safe passage | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
home. Moving MCA 's surveying work may compromise times when a | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
substandard vessel of concern is in a north-east port, if only for a | :08:51. | :08:56. | |
short period of time. The other change is the loss in counter | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
service. Marine officers provided services to cater for issues such as | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
discharge books, training record books, Siemens's cards and other | :09:05. | :09:11. | |
things, including duplicates of lost certificates. As the Marine office, | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
this is not just a loss for my constituency but for the north-east | :09:21. | :09:24. | |
and for Yorkshire. Seafarers now have the travel to Hull was send | :09:25. | :09:29. | |
their documents by coast. All that at increased cost and risk. The | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
service, I am led to believe the same number of administrative staff | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
are to be retained at the college, therefore I am completely at a loss | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
as to why this service has been removed. Especially at a time where | :09:45. | :09:49. | |
the range of certification required to work at sea is extensive and | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
subject to regular updates. Just this January, the Convention on | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
standards and training is in watch keeping an certification which sets | :10:01. | :10:03. | |
out basic training requirements for all seafarers were subject to | :10:04. | :10:10. | |
changes and the NCA is reforming its pay structures, including for the | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
basic medical certificate which you cannot work at sea without. Marine | :10:15. | :10:21. | |
information notice 541 issued earlier this month states that the | :10:22. | :10:25. | |
Hull Marine office will provide a number of services previously | :10:26. | :10:31. | |
provided at the port of Tyne office. After being under threat, the office | :10:32. | :10:35. | |
in Hull will remain open but this does not take away the fact that the | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
seafarers in South Shields and the north-east of their counter office | :10:41. | :10:42. | |
will now be 100 miles down the coast. The number of seafarers at | :10:43. | :10:50. | |
work or training in the UK shipping industry is in long-term decline. | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
Records showing a 60% decline in the number of emerging seafarers in the | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
last 30 years. We are seeing a decline in offshore supply activity | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
in the North Sea following the collapse in oil prices and there is | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
a constant threat of being replaced by low-cost crew from overseas. In | :11:10. | :11:15. | |
this context, I can't see how the loss of the Port of Tyne Marine | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
office had my region to recover jobs and skills in this industry. Surely, | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
when the government speaks of wanting to recruit and train more | :11:26. | :11:28. | |
British seafarers, moves such as the closure of this office and removal | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
of the counter service are steps that will do the exact opposite. I | :11:33. | :11:40. | |
am grateful. My honourable friend will be aware of the planned merger | :11:41. | :11:47. | |
between South Tyneside College and my own borough. And with a history | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
of seamanship and engineering excellence, shouldn't we be in | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
courage in young men and women who seek a career at sea rather than | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
discouraging them? It will come as no surprise that I agree completely | :12:03. | :12:06. | |
with my honourable friend. In an era where we have declined in the | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
seafaring industry, we should be doing everything we can to encourage | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
growth. I would like the Minister to at least commit today to restoring | :12:16. | :12:19. | |
the counter service in South Shields. The seafarers projections | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
review published by the DFT in January forecasts and increases in | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
the demand for seafarers from the UK shipping industry over the next | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
arcade. If UK ratings and officers are to fill those jobs, the | :12:36. | :12:39. | |
government has to go beyond the maritime study to tackle the effect | :12:40. | :12:45. | |
of low-cost models in constituencies like mine. I understand from the | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
maritime unions that the government is taking steps on applying the | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
national minimum wage for seafarers and it is significant reforms like | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
this that are needed and not the closure of Marine offices to revive | :12:59. | :13:01. | |
our traditional seafaring communities. But Deputy Speaker, I | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
am pleased that South Tyneside College will retain seafarers exams. | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
As the Tyne Marine officer has the highest number on the national | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
network. Between 2009 and 2016, it carried out nearly 7700 seafarer | :13:19. | :13:25. | |
oral exams. The total number of UK seafarers working today is just over | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
20 3000. Save a significant number will have been through the Marine | :13:32. | :13:36. | |
office in my constituency. So I do sincerely hope the minister will be | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
able to offer some assurances that this service will remain firmly in | :13:41. | :13:43. | |
place in South Shields for the long-term. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
am also a little confused as to why in all of these changes, the office | :13:52. | :13:56. | |
has retained the enzyme unit which carries out services that the large | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
or the superyacht sector. I think all my constituents will agree with | :14:01. | :14:03. | |
me when I say that South Shields is not an area of Roche with super | :14:04. | :14:11. | |
yachts. It is however, a wash for -- brushwood seafarers, can he do when | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
the rational for keeping this service and not the much valued | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
counter service that might constituents want retained. It is | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
short-sighted to cut the Marine office network, traditionally -- | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
particular in traditional areas like South Shields. Marine offices like | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
the Tyne should be seen as assets in the industrial strategy that | :14:34. | :14:36. | |
strengthens the link between maritime communities and seafaring | :14:37. | :14:38. | |
jobs and skills. Particularly for women who remain with -- represented | :14:39. | :14:47. | |
in the seafaring industry. Madam Deputy Speaker, the loss of the Tyne | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
office in my constituency were only save the SCO just over ?100,000 per | :14:52. | :14:58. | |
year. Its closure tells my constituents that the government | :14:59. | :15:01. | |
don't value seafarers in the north-east and I fear that the | :15:02. | :15:05. | |
long-term effects of these changes will far outweigh the short-term and | :15:06. | :15:17. | |
short-sighted financial gain. I am very grateful, I won't detain the | :15:18. | :15:20. | |
House for very long but I wanted to put on record the fact that I agree | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
with every word my honourable friend, the member for South Shields | :15:26. | :15:27. | |
is just said. The UK maritime workforce continues to diminish and | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
important skills are being lost to the industry. And we must never | :15:34. | :15:38. | |
forget that we are a maritime nation. And we are seeking to | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
significantly increase our trade beyond the confines of the European | :15:43. | :15:49. | |
Union. But we are reducing our infrastructure to look after the | :15:50. | :15:54. | |
interests of UK-based seafarers in a growing international market. The | :15:55. | :15:59. | |
offshore oil and gas industry along the North Sea coast has been in the | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
doldrums and many ships and vessels are tied up in ports along the | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
north-east and yet we are losing our regulatory capacity to make sure | :16:12. | :16:14. | |
that people actually working on those vessels are the right people | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
to be there. They have the requisite skills to be there or in fact have | :16:20. | :16:23. | |
the right nationality and work permits to work on those vessels. | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I actually find it beyond belief that the | :16:29. | :16:33. | |
government are taking the measures that my honourable friend for South | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
Wales has talked about in this important adjournment debate this | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
evening. We really do need to reverse this. It is a retrograde | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
step for an industry that needs the government to be acting on its | :16:50. | :16:52. | |
behalf rather than abandoning it at the moment. Gray Minister, Mr Andrew | :16:53. | :17:01. | |
Jones. Into very much, Madam Deputy Speaker, may I congratulate the | :17:02. | :17:03. | |
honourable lady on securing this debate about the closure of the Tyne | :17:04. | :17:10. | |
Marine office. The second thing I should say is that it is a bit of an | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
apology from that I am not the maritime Minister. The maritime | :17:16. | :17:21. | |
Minister is currently away an important government business in | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
questions that may come from her questions that may come from her | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
speech that I will not be able to answer in my speech. However, I will | :17:32. | :17:39. | |
undertake to go through all of the Hansard recordings from this debate | :17:40. | :17:44. | |
and take the Department to ensure that she receives the answers she is | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
seeking. Just to clarify that before we go any further. Before we go on | :17:49. | :17:53. | |
to talk specifically about the recent closure of the Tyne Marine | :17:54. | :17:58. | |
office, it might actually help the House if I put some background to | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
the decision into the debate. The House will recognise that our | :18:06. | :18:12. | |
people's strong connection to the sea and are impressive maritime | :18:13. | :18:16. | |
heritage, the British have always worked beyond our shores and built | :18:17. | :18:19. | |
strong trade links with the rest of the world. Ships and the related | :18:20. | :18:24. | |
maritime industries have historically been crucial to our | :18:25. | :18:28. | |
economic well-being and that is as true now as it has ever been. We are | :18:29. | :18:33. | |
obviously an island nation and the UK's requires an shipping from 95% | :18:34. | :18:41. | |
of its trade by volume. And maritime industry directly contributes ?11 | :18:42. | :18:42. | |
billion to the UK economy each year. Those maritime industries are | :18:43. | :18:53. | |
expected to grow significantly over the next decade, and the public | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
needs assurance that ships visiting our ports, whether registered in the | :18:58. | :19:00. | |
United Kingdom or not, operating safely. -- are operating safely. I | :19:01. | :19:18. | |
say run very, very fast. Does the Minister agree that it's undoubted | :19:19. | :19:21. | |
that the closure will compromise the ability of the maritime coastguard | :19:22. | :19:26. | |
service and inspection unit to carry out their duties? And the effect | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
this will have on local seafarers living and working in the area. | :19:30. | :19:34. | |
There is no doubt whatsoever it will certainly at first you say the | :19:35. | :19:39. | |
least. -- it will certainly be adverse to say the least. | :19:40. | :19:46. | |
I'm not sure I can agree with the honourable gentleman. We were just | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
talking about operating -- about operational safety, and safety | :19:52. | :19:54. | |
matters. It matters. There is on ships and for protecting the | :19:55. | :19:58. | |
cherished and highly priced marine environment. That is why we do need | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
a robust, strong and effective ship survey and inspection regime. Within | :20:04. | :20:10. | |
my department, the Maritime and coastguard agency is responsible for | :20:11. | :20:15. | |
providing that broad safety regime. In that effort the agency and its | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
staff are guided by their mission statement of "Safer lives, safer | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
ships and cleaner Seas". The ship survey and inspection regime they | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
have established must be capable of ensuring the safety of the shipping | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
industry. Asked at the same time being supportive to the industry it | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
serves, and being commercially tuned to what industry needs. That view is | :20:38. | :20:45. | |
shared by the industry itself. And was highlighted in the maritime | :20:46. | :20:48. | |
growth study report, published in September 20 15. Lord Mountbatten | :20:49. | :20:57. | |
's' report -- Lord Mountevans' report set out ways to support | :20:58. | :21:05. | |
growth and they have been working tirelessly to do so since September | :21:06. | :21:09. | |
2015 to put into effect the excellent recommendations in that | :21:10. | :21:13. | |
report. For the Maritime and coastguard agency, we have | :21:14. | :21:16. | |
implemented some of these recommendations by separating out | :21:17. | :21:20. | |
the UK ship register into a bespoke, commercially focused directorate. We | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
have appointed Dan Barrow, formerly chief executive of maritime London, | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
as new director for the UK ship register. He's been supporting the | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
MCA on a part-time basis since January, and will take up his formal | :21:35. | :21:40. | |
appointment full-time on the 10th of April. Mr Barrow brings with him an | :21:41. | :21:44. | |
expert and forensic understanding of the commercial needs of the shipping | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
industry. The MCA's leads to ship has been bolstered by the | :21:50. | :21:51. | |
appointment of its executive chairman. -- leadership has been | :21:52. | :21:57. | |
bolstered. Michael Palmer will bring 40 years of experience and | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
knowledge, and he will support the MCA's greater commercial awareness | :22:03. | :22:05. | |
and responsiveness which is critical to what I am coming on to talk about | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
shortly. Another transformational change for the agency, linked to | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
balancing its role as a regulator, with a need for greater commercial | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
responsiveness, that was recommended at the heart of the maritime growth | :22:19. | :22:23. | |
study is the modernisation of our ship survey and inspection | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
arrangements. Ship survey and inspection is at the heart of the | :22:27. | :22:30. | |
Government's responsibilities, both as a flag state, running a shipping | :22:31. | :22:35. | |
register, and as a port state, with many ships visiting the UK ports and | :22:36. | :22:39. | |
harbours daily. Both roles are about balancing safety and the protection | :22:40. | :22:43. | |
of the environment, with facilitating legitimate commercial | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
activity and trade. The safety of shipping ports and the marine | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
environment is dependent on effective proportionate regulation, | :22:53. | :22:57. | |
robust technical standards, and the comprehensive oversight and | :22:58. | :22:59. | |
inspection of national and international merchant shipping | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
fleets. Effective survey and inspection is key to that | :23:04. | :23:07. | |
compliance, and must be robust if it is to support the level of growth | :23:08. | :23:10. | |
that the maritime sector in the judged in the growth strategy. -- | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
that the maritime sector envisaged. Shipping comes with a degree of risk | :23:16. | :23:20. | |
that needs to be properly managed. A failure in regulatory governance are | :23:21. | :23:26. | |
operating ships could, and sometimes sadly does, result in serious | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
accident with damaging consequences for those involved and for our | :23:31. | :23:35. | |
environment. The MCA carries out its ship survey and inspection regime | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
for the UK through a front line counter of some 130 marine | :23:41. | :23:48. | |
surveyors, located around the UK. Those marine surveyors are | :23:49. | :23:51. | |
experienced seafarers, many of whom art master mariners, chief | :23:52. | :23:54. | |
engineers, or are qualified naval architects. Those front line marine | :23:55. | :24:00. | |
surveyors are supported by experienced and qualified colleagues | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
working in policy, technical and in-house advisory positions, | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
providing oversight, advice and monitoring of technical and | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
professional standards. Notwithstanding its strong, global | :24:13. | :24:14. | |
reputation for competence and its positive influence on worldwide | :24:15. | :24:19. | |
safety standards, the MCA has struggled in recent years to meet | :24:20. | :24:25. | |
its remit. And its ability to discharge statutory obligations | :24:26. | :24:30. | |
maritime safety. In part, that has been because it's proving difficult | :24:31. | :24:32. | |
to attract qualified marine surveyors in what is a highly | :24:33. | :24:41. | |
competitive marketplace. The marine surveyor arm has been operating with | :24:42. | :24:45. | |
30% vacancies and has found it difficult to attract and retain high | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
quality staff. Recognising the need for change, the agency carried out a | :24:50. | :24:52. | |
comprehensive review of the way it delivers its ship and server | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
inspection obligations. And by listening to the needs of customers | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
and industry, but also with the Government's state strategy and | :25:02. | :25:03. | |
optimising the potential benefits that technology can provide. The MCA | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
has identified a number of areas where improvements can be made. With | :25:10. | :25:13. | |
the support of the trades unions, new terms and conditions have been | :25:14. | :25:16. | |
agreed for the agency 's front line and marine surveyor workforce. The | :25:17. | :25:21. | |
modernised homes are designed to improve replayability -- the | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
modernised terms aim to retain and attract new talent to the workforce. | :25:30. | :25:33. | |
And a key element to the terms and conditions is the concept of remote | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
working, made increasingly impossible' possible by modern | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
technology. The honourable Lady Astor bar new IT systems. -- made | :25:43. | :25:47. | |
increasingly possible. Marine survey will no longer be required to work | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
from one of the relatively few marine offices around the UK. The | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
canister work remotely, anywhere, serving a greater portion of our | :25:57. | :26:00. | |
customers in and around UK's ports. -- they can work remotely. I was | :26:01. | :26:06. | |
just wondering if the minister would be able to share with the House the | :26:07. | :26:12. | |
cost of that new IT programme? I am not, I do not have that fact with | :26:13. | :26:17. | |
me, but I will be able to find out and rights to the honourable lady. | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
The key thing is that we are able to build upon remote working made | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
accessible by modern technology to provide a more customer oriented | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
service, with front line marine surveyors based closer to their | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
customers. The MCA are simply more able to respond quickly to customer | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
needs. That ability is a further direct response to an industry that | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
increasingly needs support at all times of the day. These changes | :26:46. | :26:50. | |
address particular industry concern and call for change. So that is the | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
background, more customer focused responsive sector driven by | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
technology and the needs for a sector which we wish to see grow. | :27:01. | :27:08. | |
That brings me to be specific issue of the closure of Tyne Marine | :27:09. | :27:14. | |
Office. Last year the MCA consulted with the public on the new estate | :27:15. | :27:18. | |
footprint. Following the consultation, the agency concluded | :27:19. | :27:20. | |
that there should be nine marine offices across the UK. A proposal to | :27:21. | :27:25. | |
close the Tyne Marine office was confirmed. Tyne Marine Office has | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
played a huge role, that point was made by the honourable lady, it is | :27:33. | :27:36. | |
without question. His close relationship with the local industry | :27:37. | :27:41. | |
and with South Tyneside College has seen over 1000 seafarers, both new | :27:42. | :27:44. | |
and experienced, visit marine offices every year to sit there | :27:45. | :27:49. | |
seafarers examinations. Recognising the local news, I can inform the | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
House of the same number of marine surveyors will continue to be | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
located in the Tyne area to meet demands. The office may have closed, | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
but the MCA opened a bespoke examination facility in the area to | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
respond to the needs of customers and industry. I've ensure the | :28:08. | :28:14. | |
honourable lady is aware, the centre situated within South Tyneside | :28:15. | :28:18. | |
College and opening the MCA branding opened on March 13 this year. The | :28:19. | :28:24. | |
MCA large yacht unit will operate from the same examination centre. | :28:25. | :28:33. | |
Whilst... Whilst it might not be a venue for that many super yachts, it | :28:34. | :28:37. | |
is a venue for expertise within the MCA. That is why the unit is there | :28:38. | :28:44. | |
in the first place. Remote working marine surveyors based in the Tyne | :28:45. | :28:47. | |
area will be able to use this facility as a remote office whenever | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
they require it. She has raised concerns about their no longer been | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
a counter service on the Tyne. Forster is no longer a counter | :28:57. | :29:02. | |
service, the MCA still has in place provisions to provide documents such | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
as discharge books and Siemens' cards, as well as other government | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
services, applications for these documents can be made online or via | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
the post. It is worth noting that over the last two years, there have | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
been approximately two visits per week to the Tyne counter. That's in | :29:20. | :29:27. | |
contrast to the 1200 visits and inspections per year. The provision | :29:28. | :29:34. | |
of a council service really fails to take into account the direction of | :29:35. | :29:39. | |
technology and the lack of demand, and we need to consider providing | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
services in a way which required by customers. I am aware of the figure | :29:44. | :29:53. | |
of two people per week going to get papers and documentation. But how | :29:54. | :29:59. | |
many people, does the Minister have any figures for how many people have | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
come into the office for help, advice, discussions about future | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
careers? Is that service matter to my constituents and they would have | :30:08. | :30:10. | |
wanted it to be brought back into place and white -- back into place. | :30:11. | :30:19. | |
In responding to the honourable lady, it comes into play with other | :30:20. | :30:23. | |
points already made. We need to have a presence in the area is understood | :30:24. | :30:32. | |
with its link and the base at South Tyneside College. And particularly | :30:33. | :30:39. | |
the way in which the 1200 exams and port controls per year will be | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
delivered. I think it's important to emphasise that the MCA and its | :30:44. | :30:46. | |
excellent marine surveyors have not abandoned the north-east of England. | :30:47. | :30:51. | |
They are still very much there. They're talking about the same | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
number of people providing the same services. I'll still be supporting | :30:55. | :30:59. | |
the local customers. What we're trying to do is deliver the service | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
in a way that is more responsive to customer needs. That is the feedback | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
we've had from industry, and we need to make our service more tuned in to | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
their needs so that we no longer continue to see maritime decline. | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
They are just working differently and from a different base at South | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
Tyneside College. This was the first step in a national restructuring | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
intended to secure a robust survey and inspection regime that aims to | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
deliver a more efficient service. It is a service that can meet the needs | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
of customers and industry. It modernised service that will attract | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
new ships to fly the flag and joint UK ship register. I can assure the | :31:39. | :31:42. | |
House that are modernised ships survey and inspection arrangements | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
will mean that we retain our praise as one of the most respected | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
maritime nations in the world. -- retain our place. The question is | :31:50. | :31:57. | |
that these house do now adjourn. As many of that opinion say aye. The | :31:58. | :32:08. | |
ayes have it. In order, order. Wink-macro that is the end of the | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
day in the House of Commons. We will now be going over live to the House | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
of Lords. The members you can watch recorded coverage of all of today's | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
business in the Lords after the day's politics | :32:22. | :32:22. |