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including the needs of businesses. Order. Urgent question. | :00:00. | :00:18. | |
To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs | :00:19. | :00:25. | |
she will make a statement on the publication date of the Government's | :00:26. | :00:33. | |
air-quality strategy. Thank you, Mr Speaker. This Government is | :00:34. | :00:37. | |
committed to making sure ours is the first generation to leave the | :00:38. | :00:40. | |
environment in a better state than we found it. As part of that, I am | :00:41. | :00:46. | |
personally deeply committed to the importance of ensuring clean air. I | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
can tell the House that since 2011, the Government has announced over ?2 | :00:52. | :00:57. | |
billion to help bus operators upgrade fleets, support | :00:58. | :00:59. | |
redevelopment and take-up of low emission vehicles, reduce pollution | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
from vehicles such as refuge trucks and fire engines, and to promote the | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
development of clean alternative fuels. In addition, in the Autumn | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
Statement, we announced a further ?290 million to support electric | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
vehicles, low emission buses and taxis and alternative fuels. Our | :01:17. | :01:22. | |
actions have enabled the UK to make significant progress on improving | :01:23. | :01:27. | |
air quality since 2010. We now have lower emissions of the five key | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
pollutants, volatile organic compounds, sulphur dioxide, ammonia | :01:32. | :01:37. | |
particulates and nitrogen oxides. Due to the failure of YouGov vehicle | :01:38. | :01:44. | |
emissions standards to improve air quality, the UK is amongst 17 | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
European countries, including France and Germany, who are not yet meeting | :01:49. | :01:51. | |
EU emissions targets for nitrogen dioxide, in parts of some of | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
attendance at these. We're taking strong action to remedy that. My | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
department, since last member, has been working jointly with the | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
Department for Transport to update the Government's National air | :02:08. | :02:10. | |
quality plan for nitrogen dioxide. We have updated the analytical base | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
for the planned to reflect new evidence following the VW scandal | :02:15. | :02:19. | |
and a failure of the year's regulatory regime to deliver the | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
improvements expected on emissions. The plan adapts to these new | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
circumstances by setting out a framework for action. Following | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
long-standing precedent, we have now entered the period of pre-election | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
sensitivity that precedes elections. In accordance with the guidance | :02:39. | :02:43. | |
covering both the local and general elections, the propriety and ethics | :02:44. | :02:46. | |
team in Cabinet Office have told us that it would not be appropriate to | :02:47. | :02:50. | |
launch the consultation and publish the air-quality plan during this | :02:51. | :02:56. | |
time. So the Government is therefore replying to be High Court for a | :02:57. | :03:01. | |
short extension of the deadline for publishing the air-quality plan for | :03:02. | :03:04. | |
nitrogen dioxide so that the Government can comply with | :03:05. | :03:06. | |
pre-election propriety rules. The Government is seeking to publish a | :03:07. | :03:12. | |
draft plan by the 30th of June and a final plan by the 15th of September. | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
The application will be considered by the court. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :03:18. | :03:25. | |
Mr Speaker, nearly 40 million people in Britain live in areas with | :03:26. | :03:28. | |
illegal areas of air pollution. 2000 schools and nurseries are close to | :03:29. | :03:34. | |
loads, roads with damaging levels of fumes. Ex-pats estimate that poor | :03:35. | :03:40. | |
air quality contributes to 14,000 premature deaths every year. -- | :03:41. | :03:51. | |
experts. This has now become a public health emergency. What does | :03:52. | :03:59. | |
-- does the Government agree this is a public health emergency? Given | :04:00. | :04:03. | |
that she has only known about the High Court deadline for months, why | :04:04. | :04:07. | |
did she request a further delay to the publication on her ear caught a | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
plan at 7pm on Friday night? -- air-quality plan. Would she | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
confirmed she had already applied for extension before the election | :04:19. | :04:23. | |
was called? It is unacceptable to hide behind election to hide plans. | :04:24. | :04:30. | |
Rules are clear that it is not an excuse to delay talks about public | :04:31. | :04:35. | |
health matters. Would she confirmed that the paper is ready for | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
publication? Is she agrees that it is a public emergency, why the | :04:40. | :04:43. | |
delay? Isn't it the case that the Government is doing everything it | :04:44. | :04:45. | |
can to avoid scrutiny because it is missing its own commitments, has no | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
strategy and wants to yet again kicked this issue into the long | :04:50. | :04:50. | |
grass? How can we trust them to keep their | :04:51. | :05:00. | |
standards when done everything possible to evade scrutiny and have | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
had to be dragged through the courts? If the Government fails to | :05:05. | :05:09. | |
publish its plan today, then within the first 30 days of a Labour | :05:10. | :05:14. | |
administration, we will. Only a Labour Government legislate for a | :05:15. | :05:17. | |
new clean air act setting out how we would tackle air pollution that | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
damages the lives of millions while this Conservative Government | :05:23. | :05:26. | |
continues to change leash at its legal responsibilities and puts the | :05:27. | :05:36. | |
health of millions at risk. I think right across this House we all agree | :05:37. | :05:40. | |
that care quality is a significant concern and I have already set out | :05:41. | :05:43. | |
some of the strong action that this Government is taking in spending ?2 | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
billion since 2011 in trying to improve matters. It is exactly | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
right, we do have our draft a multi-plan ready, and she asks why | :05:55. | :06:02. | |
do we have a late extension, I can absolutely explain to her that in | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
the course of developing our draft plan, it was very clear that local | :06:07. | :06:10. | |
authorities will have to play a central role in delivering the final | :06:11. | :06:15. | |
air quality plan. Government initially sought to defer | :06:16. | :06:17. | |
publication of the plan and the lord of the consultation on it until | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
after the powder period for local authority elections. So that | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
application was lodged, the primers that they general election and a | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
further period of powder commenced on the 21st of April. As she will | :06:30. | :06:35. | |
know, Government normally seeks to avoid launching consultation | :06:36. | :06:39. | |
exercises during purdah period. It is absolutely vital that we get this | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
done and it is our intention that we will publish this on the 30th of | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
June, which she says within 30 days with a Labour administration they | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
would be publishing, that the taxi belay to land the intention of this | :06:52. | :07:00. | |
Government. I also met one to make clear we now have entered a period | :07:01. | :07:03. | |
of time where we are strongly advised not to be publishing | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
consultations and so what we're trying to do is a very short | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
extension, which we do not believe will make a difference to the | :07:12. | :07:14. | |
implementation of our plans, but at the same time we are safeguarding | :07:15. | :07:25. | |
our democracy. I would urge the Secretary of State along with all | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
ministers to work on this air quality plan with the greatest | :07:30. | :07:32. | |
urgency after the general election, because we have waited a very long | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
time for this report. Much of the problems with diesels actually | :07:37. | :07:41. | |
started under the last Government, so therefore they do need to clean | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
that up. A scrappage scheme, not only for diesel cars but also for | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
buses, taxis and many other public transport in our inner cities is | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
absolutely essential to clean up air quality, especially in our inner | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
cities. 90, Mr Speaker. He is exactly right. We have been working | :08:03. | :08:10. | |
on this plan for several years, on a specific plan, we published a plan, | :08:11. | :08:15. | |
a consultation in 2015 for clean air zones, it has been extended | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
difficult that the emissions of diesel vehicles far exceeded what | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
was expected and the EU regulatory regime did not show effectively but | :08:26. | :08:32. | |
the real levels of emissions were. This Government pushed for | :08:33. | :08:34. | |
improvements to the assessment and we have been planning for this craft | :08:35. | :08:37. | |
air quality plan for a considerable length of time and we will be | :08:38. | :08:45. | |
publishing it as soon as we can. Thank you to the honourable member | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
for securing this urgent question and the Government was like a | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
quality strategy. I agree with the concerns. This is not a political | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
issue. All our constituents need to be and to see an air quality plan | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
based on good scientific evidence to ensure that people no longer have to | :09:03. | :09:06. | |
be toxic air within their communities. The Government have had | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
five months, a five-month window to address this illegal air quality | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
strategy will stop does the Secretary of State then agree with | :09:15. | :09:17. | |
me that hiding behind a general election is not an excuse to fail to | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
address this vital public health issue that she has just mentioned, | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
and the minister said it is vital to get this legislation through, why | :09:26. | :09:35. | |
the delay? I can only repeat that I absolutely agree with all members, | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
this is a vital issue, we have spent the last five months looking very | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
carefully at the real world as well as the laboratory tests for actual | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
images to make sure that we get the right consultation. We do not expect | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
that any delay due to proprietary rules will lead to a delay in the | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
implementation. We are seeking a very short a later preserve our | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
democracy in accordance with the guidance from Cabinet Office for a | :10:03. | :10:07. | |
brightly and ethics committee. Does she agree there is rising concern, | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
particularly about emissions that can damage health and lungs, and | :10:11. | :10:16. | |
would she make a high priority to limit suit and smoke from public | :10:17. | :10:19. | |
servers vehicles where she has the most influence? Yes, my honourable | :10:20. | :10:24. | |
friend is right to raise that issue. A huge amount of the investment that | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
has already come forward from the Government has been in looking at | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
what we can do in retrofitting, buses and taxis, and there are other | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
measures such as limiting medium combustion plant, which I was very | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
proud as energy secretary to put into place, to try to reduce the | :10:44. | :10:48. | |
amount of other emissions. My honourable friend is exactly right, | :10:49. | :10:51. | |
there are a number of different areas of emissions which we need to | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
tackle, this plan deals with an O2 emissions and we will publish it as | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
soon as we can. On the opposition benches, we will monitor carefully | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
whether the pre-election sensitivity applies equally to an announcement | :11:07. | :11:08. | |
on consultations the Government well, as once which will cause | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
embarrassment, but, as the Secretary of State, was the UK leaves the EU | :11:14. | :11:17. | |
and the commission are no longer able to levy fines on UK for failing | :11:18. | :11:20. | |
to act with due speed on the premature death of 40,000 people a | :11:21. | :11:25. | |
year caused by toxic air, who does the Government expect will be | :11:26. | :11:29. | |
levying fines initiating cases against the Government for a quality | :11:30. | :11:36. | |
beaches? I can agree with the honourable gentleman again that this | :11:37. | :11:40. | |
is a significant and serious issue. I find it rather distasteful that he | :11:41. | :11:43. | |
would suggest the only reason we might be motivated as a Government | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
to deal with it is because the threat of EU fines. We absolutely to | :11:48. | :11:52. | |
deal with the issues to make sure that the air is cleaner for the | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
people of our country and to ensure that we are the generation that | :11:57. | :12:00. | |
needs are environment and a better state than we found it. Would my | :12:01. | :12:06. | |
right honourable friend agree that it is not just people but sensitive | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
landscapes such as the nationally designated area of outstanding | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
natural beauty, such as the children's, that should not only be | :12:17. | :12:20. | |
protected but should be positively recognised for its role in the | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
battle against poor air quality? This includes the harnessing, the | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
potential of our trees and ancient woodland. I absolutely agree, she | :12:34. | :12:40. | |
always speaks very strongly for the Chilterns as you try to do so, it is | :12:41. | :12:46. | |
a beautiful area and equality is vital for humans and our lovely | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
landscapes and to the contribution that our trees and peatlands and so | :12:50. | :12:58. | |
I can make to that Israel ported. -- is really important. Merrimack my | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
constituency is one of the ten cities there are were infected | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
with... One of the five cities under the December Government plans to | :13:09. | :13:14. | |
introduce clean air zones. Local authority of Southampton has been | :13:15. | :13:17. | |
really assiduous in moving forward with those plans. There's been a | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
great deal of its own city authority money is the grant money that has | :13:22. | :13:24. | |
been received into forwarding those plans. Is it the advice of the | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
minister that the City Council in Southampton should go easy on its | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
plans, because the Government cannot get its own plans together in the | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
wake that they would bring these plans forward? I was in full | :13:37. | :13:42. | |
agreement with the honourable gentleman to that last bit. Of | :13:43. | :13:45. | |
course not. I must go to pray Southampton bodywork that they have | :13:46. | :13:50. | |
done. They've had significant, with the council, sums of Government | :13:51. | :13:54. | |
funding for the clean air programme and they are doing a good job. They | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
should continue. To be clear, clean air zones can be implemented by any | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
local authority has things stand. It should of course be in the interest | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
of all local authorities to be looking at adding whatever they can | :14:07. | :14:11. | |
to improve the quality of care for the local communities. Is at the air | :14:12. | :14:19. | |
quality plan got to be seen wider context of the environment and tax | :14:20. | :14:22. | |
changes, and isn't that the case that the Government is any more | :14:23. | :14:24. | |
difficult position than it would otherwise be because of the legacy | :14:25. | :14:30. | |
of the wrong-headed tax changes made by Labour when in power, which meant | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
that be more than doubled the level of diesel cars and increased the | :14:35. | :14:37. | |
number of diesel buyers to 3 million as a result of their ridiculous tax | :14:38. | :14:43. | |
changes under Gordon Brown? And Dippy one above thread makes a good | :14:44. | :14:50. | |
point and it is interesting that in recent times several of Gordon | :14:51. | :14:53. | |
Brown's and Tony Blair's advisers have Martin said that they were | :14:54. | :14:56. | |
wrong to have encouraged the uptake of diesel vehicles as much as they | :14:57. | :15:02. | |
did. Even the current shadow international trade Secretary has | :15:03. | :15:05. | |
admitted there is a slave no decision -- question that the | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
decision they took on diesel was the wrong one. I do think that this | :15:09. | :15:13. | |
Government as ever decidedly not a mess that we started that Michael | :15:14. | :15:25. | |
was started by Labour. A major contributory factor to a quality, | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
but in areas like quayside if the Government act on storage. We've | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
been promised a Tory policy on this is the biggest funding two years | :15:34. | :15:41. | |
ago. It will be getting? As an energy minister of the past, I can | :15:42. | :15:45. | |
tell him that we have always been clear that carbon capture and | :15:46. | :15:48. | |
storage will play a part in our future plans but that doesn't impact | :15:49. | :15:51. | |
on the inner O2 plan that we are talking about today. Secretary of | :15:52. | :15:59. | |
State has clearly set out the reasons for the delay. Can I | :16:00. | :16:02. | |
encourage her in the intervening time to strengthen our policies that | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
will encourage people to get out of their cars altogether, and I can act | :16:07. | :16:10. | |
I encourage you to look at the article in this week was like | :16:11. | :16:13. | |
British medical Journal which clearly sets out the evidence for | :16:14. | :16:19. | |
the benefit of active commuting, particularly by bicycle, and to | :16:20. | :16:21. | |
encourage others to get Britain cycling? She is right to raise this, | :16:22. | :16:30. | |
the Government is a huge supporter of sustainable transport projects. | :16:31. | :16:36. | |
We have invested ?224 million in cycling since 2013, and also ?600 | :16:37. | :16:44. | |
million to deliver transport projects across 77 local authorities | :16:45. | :16:46. | |
through the local sustainable transport fund. We do need to do | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
everything we can to protect the quality of our hair in our cities | :16:53. | :16:55. | |
and that includes changing the way people travel. And delighted | :16:56. | :17:01. | |
congratulate the envelope member for not call well on his successful | :17:02. | :17:05. | |
completion of the marathon yesterday. Despite that, he has | :17:06. | :17:11. | |
sprung to his feet. Very impressive. The Secretary of State and the | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
minister will be well aware of the challenges facing my constituency, | :17:17. | :17:20. | |
they have really had an air quality assessment and they are developed | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
early stages of having a bypass. I would hope the Secretary of State | :17:26. | :17:27. | |
will support me and the local community and their bid for a new | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
bypass in Camelford. I would love to be able to offer him a new bypass, | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
unfortunately that is outside my powers to do that. I do wish him | :17:39. | :17:42. | |
luck with that and also congratulate him to art his amazing achievement | :17:43. | :17:51. | |
yesterday. At the present rate, there will be several more dead | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
people by the time the cheap rubbish is this air quality plan. The whole | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
point of purdah is that you shouldn't make announcements unless | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
they are significant in terms of urgent health issues. Isn't this an | :18:08. | :18:13. | |
urgent health issue? What is she going to say to the families of | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
those seven people who will die before she even publishes reds | :18:17. | :18:24. | |
here's right to say poor air quality is a public health issue, and that | :18:25. | :18:27. | |
is why we are taking urgent action and will ensure that a short delay | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
to the timetable will not result in a delay in the implementation of the | :18:34. | :18:36. | |
plan. By doing this, we will tackle this public health issue as quickly | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
as possible without prejudicing our democratic process. Safeguarding | :18:42. | :18:47. | |
public health is one example of a possible exception that like | :18:48. | :18:51. | |
exceptional circumstance that circumstance. But this would | :18:52. | :18:55. | |
generally only apply if there was an unexpected health emergency, such as | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
for example contaminated food that needed to be dealt with is ugly. | :18:59. | :19:02. | |
This doesn't fall within that category of exception. With the | :19:03. | :19:08. | |
Government confirmed that it remains technology neutral as far as dealing | :19:09. | :19:12. | |
with this issue is concerned and that specifically as far as hydrogen | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
is concerned, the Government will do what is necessary to make sure we | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
don't fall behind countries like Germany and California in terms of | :19:21. | :19:26. | |
cleaning up this terrible problem? I can confirm that we are technology | :19:27. | :19:30. | |
neutral. It is a part of our industrial strategy that we are | :19:31. | :19:34. | |
consulting on how to become a world leader in ultralow emission vehicles | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
of all types. There is a very good story to tell. More to be done. But | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
we are making good progress. Air quality standards are regularly | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
breached in my constituency from Chiswick, Brentford and two to | :19:51. | :19:55. | |
hounds were. Do my constituents not deserve better on this issue, | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
especially as the Government wants to push ahead with runway three at | :19:59. | :20:03. | |
Heathrow, which will only make the problem significant it worse? | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
I can say to the honourable lady that I met with the Mayor of London | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
in my first week of office to discuss clean air, because she is | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
right. It is a huge priority in all our cities but particularly in | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
London. There is quite rightly a huge focus on it. I can say that the | :20:22. | :20:27. | |
Mayor is implementing the excellent work on my right honourable friend, | :20:28. | :20:31. | |
the member for Oxbridge, when he was the Mayor of London. That continuity | :20:32. | :20:37. | |
should continue to be a cross-party co-operation to solve what is a very | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
serious issue for all of us. Does my right honourable friend share my | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
sadness at the lack of contrition displayed by the benches opposite, | :20:49. | :20:50. | |
given that the unquestioned adoption of policy in the early Pata last | :20:51. | :20:55. | |
decade resulted in a massive increase in the number of diesel | :20:56. | :21:01. | |
vehicles, making the air in places like Westbury and my constituency | :21:02. | :21:08. | |
considerably more toxic? I completely agree with my | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
honourable friend. Of course, now, there are a number of advisers and | :21:14. | :21:18. | |
indeed serving members of the benches opposite to admit that the | :21:19. | :21:21. | |
decision to promote diesel was not the right decision back in 2000 - | :21:22. | :21:28. | |
2008. That is a great shame, because now, we are trying to do with some | :21:29. | :21:34. | |
of the consequences of that. It is very important that cross-party, we | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
all cooperate with one another to try and make sure we tackle what is | :21:38. | :21:44. | |
a very significant issue. Air pollution contributes to the | :21:45. | :21:46. | |
premature deaths of tens of thousands of people. We all know | :21:47. | :21:51. | |
that. Do I take from her previous ads that she thinks air pollution is | :21:52. | :21:55. | |
only a public health issue and not categorically a public health | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
emergency? I think that cleanly is an absolute priority for this | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
Government. -- clean air. We have been working on our new proposals | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
for the last five months and we're ready to go with our proposals. We | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
are now seeking a very short referral to meet the propriety | :22:15. | :22:21. | |
rules. We do not expect that will delay the fermentation of plans to | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
deal with what is a very significant and urgent concern. I've worn at the | :22:26. | :22:34. | |
air-quality monitor as part of the environmentally select committee's | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
enquiry into are emissions. This should that a bus station in my | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
constituency had pollution as high as in Oxford geek. Does the | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
Secretary of State share my concern that some directly elected Mayor 's | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
will use this as an opportunity to introduce congestion charges on | :22:52. | :22:56. | |
motorists who were told to buy diesel vehicles, not use that money | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
for air-quality, and in addition, take money from Defra for addressing | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
the same problem? What I can say to my honourable friend is that we're | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
been very clear that this Government... We are very conscious | :23:14. | :23:18. | |
of the fact that past governors have encouraged people to buy diesel cars | :23:19. | :23:21. | |
and we need to take that into account when we are looking at what | :23:22. | :23:27. | |
we are doing in the future. Mr Speaker, can I, in a possible way, | :23:28. | :23:32. | |
put the Secretary of State right on this? She has had to be dragged to | :23:33. | :23:38. | |
the House to make this statement. She has put off major decisions | :23:39. | :23:41. | |
across the future of our department on all those important issues. Can I | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
put the record straight just the fact that my constituents will not | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
understand, when children are being poisoned now, when pregnant women | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
are being poisoned now, pedestrians and cyclists are being poisoned, and | :23:53. | :24:00. | |
she is bringing some obscure mention to stop us doing something about it? | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
Can I remind her that it is two years since the Volkswagen scandal | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
broke and she has had two years and done nothing? Well, in truth, what | :24:09. | :24:16. | |
this Government did was to lead the UN sorting out the emissions | :24:17. | :24:20. | |
calculation is to make sure that they were accurate. After years ago, | :24:21. | :24:29. | |
the E's assessment and the VW cheating and wrong emissions | :24:30. | :24:33. | |
assessment were just that, wrong. -- EU's. We have press for better | :24:34. | :24:39. | |
assessments and have worked extremely hard to get plans ready. | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
This is a very short the federal to deal with propriety rules. -- the. | :24:45. | :24:51. | |
We will be pushing a plans as soon as possible after the election and | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
we do not believe there will be a delay in implementation, which will | :24:55. | :24:57. | |
be in the shortest time possible. It is a very important issue. You will | :24:58. | :25:03. | |
want to know, Mr Speaker, that on Friday, I launched the new | :25:04. | :25:09. | |
double-decker fleet for the X three service which runs from Salisbury to | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
Bournemouth via God 's own town of Ringwood and Fordingbridge. | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
Combining convenience and comfort with lower emissions than the | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
Longmoor that I push round my garden on Saturday evening. If... If she | :25:27. | :25:40. | |
wants to break the unrelieved tedium of which she has spoken in the next | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
few weeks, can I recommend she joins me breathing deeply the fresh air of | :25:46. | :25:55. | |
Avon Valley in the XP service. -- X3. | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
It is always interesting to hear of the right honourable gentleman's | :26:02. | :26:06. | |
activities and despite his knighthood, he remains a man of the | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
people. I am saddened that we do not have photographs of him pushing his | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
lawn mower around but I suspect it is a matter of time! I hope he has | :26:16. | :26:20. | |
an electric lawn mower to go with his electric buses. In the Autumn | :26:21. | :26:29. | |
Statement, there was ?150 million in support of low emissions buses and | :26:30. | :26:36. | |
taxis which ensures that wherever I go in the country, I will be able to | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
breathe deeply and enjoy the non-fumes from the new, low emission | :26:41. | :26:46. | |
vehicles. Incredibly important and it is this Government that is taking | :26:47. | :26:51. | |
the action on it. The Secretary of State might have | :26:52. | :27:03. | |
her Government is sitting on its hands well be Mayor of London is | :27:04. | :27:08. | |
taking action. But she admit that this is the biggest crisis of our | :27:09. | :27:12. | |
time, and now she diverse one of its worst decisions in Government, | :27:13. | :27:17. | |
building the thought runway on Heathrow? He is wrong to say this | :27:18. | :27:22. | |
Government is not taken action. I have given Kim as examples of where | :27:23. | :27:25. | |
we have taken action. We have recently issued over ?3.5 million of | :27:26. | :27:29. | |
plans to particular councils and projects. This Government is the one | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
that is taking action. As I have made clear, we have seen reductions, | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
significant reductions in recent years. In answer to his point about | :27:38. | :27:42. | |
expanding at Heathrow, that will take place, only provided the | :27:43. | :27:48. | |
air-quality can be insured. Those plans have not yet come forward. | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
Well, those plans have not come forward yet. Thank you, Mr Speaker. | :27:52. | :27:59. | |
With the Secretary of State agree that pollution is a serious problem, | :28:00. | :28:03. | |
but for the Mayor of London to seek to demonise the drivers of diesel | :28:04. | :28:06. | |
cars and indeed use pollution concerns as a smoke screen through | :28:07. | :28:12. | |
which to seek to flee is for more tax, is not the answer. Particularly | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
as figures show that diesel cars 10% of the problem. The Mayor should be | :28:16. | :28:20. | |
dealing with 100% of the problem, not just 10%. | :28:21. | :28:25. | |
He is exactly right that all councils that have the air-quality | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
problems will need to deal with them, dealing with one of 2% of the | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
problem. All I can reiterate is as the premise of said. A number of | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
people were encouraged to buy diesel cars by the last Labour Government | :28:39. | :28:41. | |
and we want to take the needs into account so we do not end up | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
penalising people for decisions that they took in good faith. Latest | :28:45. | :28:55. | |
figures show that new cars are failing to filter it polluted air. | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
And the air inside cars is up to 10,000 times more toxic than on | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
footpaths. The ventilation in cars is not working correctly either. You | :29:05. | :29:07. | |
have given us a timescale for when this process will take place and the | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
comeback. Can we have an idea when the legislation will come to this | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
House for endorsement? Well, the timetable that we have set out to | :29:17. | :29:28. | |
account for this is the will publish our plans by the 30th of June and a | :29:29. | :29:32. | |
final plan by the 15th of September. And then legislation will come into | :29:33. | :29:35. | |
place as soon as possible after that. But the workable need to be | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
done to come into compliance with that plan will need to start | :29:40. | :29:45. | |
straightaway. Good choice, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, electric | :29:46. | :29:54. | |
vehicles will reduce emissions in our city centres and improve our bin | :29:55. | :30:02. | |
air-quality. However, without support for renewables, any | :30:03. | :30:03. | |
air-quality plan is simply shifting pollution from urban to rural areas | :30:04. | :30:09. | |
when his electric vehicles need to charge and therefore plugged into | :30:10. | :30:13. | |
the grid. With the Secretary of State agree that support for | :30:14. | :30:17. | |
renewables is key when we consider the future electric vehicles, and | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
they should be included in any air-quality plan. Yes, I am sure she | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
would agree with me that this Government has done more to support | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
renewables than most others. We have a very good track record in boosting | :30:33. | :30:40. | |
renewable electricity generation. I can certainly tell her that we want | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
and expect to see the majority of the judging taking place at home at | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
night after the peak in electricity demand. Only charging should be | :30:48. | :30:50. | |
supported by workplace recharging for commuters and sweets, in | :30:51. | :30:58. | |
infrastructure areas where it will be most used. She will also be | :30:59. | :31:02. | |
delighted that only 2016 Autumn Statement, the Chancellor a further | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
to ?290 million to support electric vehicles, low emission vehicles and | :31:09. | :31:14. | |
alternative fuels. Glasgow is still unfortunately | :31:15. | :31:19. | |
something of an air pollution Hot Spot. In Biles Road in my | :31:20. | :31:26. | |
constituency, because an area that is particularly affected. -- Byres | :31:27. | :31:36. | |
Road. Will she also welcomed the action of local campaign groups in | :31:37. | :31:44. | |
raising awareness and encouraging people to date local action to | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
improve air quality in their areas? I am always delighted to welcome the | :31:50. | :31:52. | |
actions of local voluntary bodies to try and change the way that people | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
travel and encourage the take-up of good, healthy cycling and all the | :31:58. | :32:00. | |
rest of it. Why not walking as well, when you can? But recognising that | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
air-quality is often the result of people needing to use their own | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
vehicles and fans etc. Of course, he will be aware that the actual policy | :32:11. | :32:15. | |
on air quality is a devolved matter. So the plan that we have is a shared | :32:16. | :32:20. | |
plan between all of the four nations of the United Kingdom, so we will be | :32:21. | :32:26. | |
publishing that as soon as we can. Yes. Point of order, Fiona | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
McTaggart. You will be aware that I requested | :32:34. | :32:48. | |
an urgent question on an issue to do -- that was raised in my surgery | :32:49. | :32:51. | |
last week. I later discovered that this was the practice for a number | :32:52. | :32:58. | |
of Government hotlines. These mechanisms which enable MPs and, as | :32:59. | :33:01. | |
you know, we're Members of Parliament until next Tuesday, which | :33:02. | :33:05. | |
enable them to get justice for their constituents. Following that | :33:06. | :33:10. | |
request, my office got a telephone call from the Cabinet Office saying, | :33:11. | :33:14. | |
please withdraw it. We don't believe what to answer this. And I did not | :33:15. | :33:22. | |
exceed two that request. -- and I did not agree to that request. And | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
then what happened? Hotlines reopened. I understand why you do | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
not want me to ask the question, but can I ask for an assurance, as a | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
champion of a backbencher, to make sure and use your best efforts to | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
make sure the original plans to cut off this service to Members of | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
Parliament, to a call last week, does not occur until after this | :33:49. | :33:56. | |
Parliament is complete? I am grateful to the honourable | :33:57. | :34:00. | |
lady. The leader of the houses in his place, and notwithstanding the | :34:01. | :34:02. | |
rating remarks the honourable lady has made about the Government, it | :34:03. | :34:12. | |
may the wish of the Leader of the House to clarify the matter as he | :34:13. | :34:15. | |
sees fit. I will say only that I always do my best for Mac... | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
Backbenchers. As you will lady has announced intention to leave the | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
House, perhaps I can wish a great good fortune, health and happiness | :34:24. | :34:28. | |
in all she goes on to do. I'm very conscious that she and I entered the | :34:29. | :34:31. | |
House together 20 years ago and we have come to know each other well | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
over the last two decades. As I say, I say with feeling, best wishes and | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
good luck. The Leader of the House. Mr Speaker, on that point of order, | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
it might be for the convenience of the houses I clarify that the | :34:48. | :34:50. | |
understanding I have from the Cabinet Office is that there were | :34:51. | :34:53. | |
some technical problems with one or two lines at the end of last week. | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
But it was never in certainly is not the intention of the Government that | :34:58. | :35:04. | |
the rules should be applied at this stage. They will come into force as | :35:05. | :35:08. | |
is normal at the dissolution of the House when members seized to have | :35:09. | :35:10. | |
the position of being a Member of Parliament. | :35:11. | :35:16. | |
Point of order. Further to the previous point of order, my office | :35:17. | :35:22. | |
this morning contacted UK Visa and immigration are only to be told we | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
are in purdah and they would not halt to them even with ongoing | :35:26. | :35:30. | |
cases. There is really an inconsistency of advice going on. I | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
wonder if maybe the Leader of the House could respond to the further | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
point of order. The position is exactly as I have just said in | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
response to the point made by Honda lady, member for Slough. I hope that | :35:44. | :35:48. | |
will prove to be adequate in the coming days. I'm grateful to the | :35:49. | :35:52. | |
leader and has for what he has just said and I think the honourable | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
lady. If you are no further point of order, we shall know proceeds to the | :35:57. | :36:06. | |
business of the House, motion folly 24th, 25, 26 and 20 of April. The | :36:07. | :36:16. | |
minister to move? I beg to move the motion that appears on the paper in | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
my name. The purpose of this motion is to allow for the orderly | :36:20. | :36:22. | |
conclusion of the business currently before the House before the House is | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
complete. Provisions are being made for the convenience of the House so | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
began bring proceedings to our business face-lift and orderly | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
conclusion. The business of the House motion by a 24, 20 fifth, 26 | :36:36. | :36:44. | |
7th of April as on the paper. Can affect the Leader of the House for | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
bringing this to the House and volley helpful explanatory note, | :36:49. | :36:50. | |
which act the rise to the pages which is an event of this? I would | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
also like to thank the staff or the expeditions wave which they are | :36:56. | :36:57. | |
dealing with the future that is given in the forthcoming general | :36:58. | :37:02. | |
election. I don't think there is any doubt like there is a further | :37:03. | :37:08. | |
contributor. I would simply like to add to the remarks made by the | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Leader of the House and to thank him for bringing this urgent business to | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
the House and the rest assure that people scrutinised everything as in | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
our normal fashion. And the question is as on the order paper. At the | :37:23. | :37:31. | |
ayes have it. The court although busy to read the orders of the day. | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
Northern Ireland, Minnesota appointments. Second reading. | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates) | :37:42. | :37:47. | |
Bill. The second reading of the Bill, I call the Secretary of State | :37:48. | :37:53. | |
for Northern Ireland. Thank you, Mr Speaker and I beg to move that this | :37:54. | :37:56. | |
Bill be now read a second time. Before I move forward with this | :37:57. | :38:02. | |
business, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to those | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
in the Police Service of Northern Ireland and other emergency | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
services. Those who spent yesterday keeping people safe from a | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
significant bomb placed by dissident republican terrorists next in a | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
primary school in north Belfast. I am sickened by this incident. It has | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
caused outrage in the unity and far beyond. It is clear that the | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
consequences could have been utterly devastating. Potentially to put | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
children, the wider community and police officers in danger shows a | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
wanton disregard for life. This shows these terrors for who and what | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
they really are. It is a potent reminder that they have nothing to | :38:48. | :38:56. | |
offer. I will give way. Will he also except that attempts by the BBC this | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
morning to try and somehow justify what the terrace did at the weekend | :39:03. | :39:09. | |
on the basis that there had been no political progress shows the kind of | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
by now reporting that we get from the BBC, and is not worthy of a body | :39:14. | :39:21. | |
which is funded from public funds? The honourable gentleman has made | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
his point in his own way, all I would say is that this was an | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
appalling incident for which there is no justification whatsoever. I | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
think the whole House would wish to pay tribute to all of those agencies | :39:38. | :39:43. | |
who do such an incredible job in seeking to provide security for | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
Northern Ireland. The rest they often put themselves under as a | :39:47. | :39:51. | |
consequence of that and the incredible contribution that they | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
make. Very briefly. With the Secretary of State agree with me | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
that it is not enough for political parties and individuals to say they | :40:03. | :40:09. | |
supported the rule of law? It surely is incumbent upon all of us to | :40:10. | :40:12. | |
support the individual officers who come from right across the community | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
to serve all of the committee and that we, all of us should be giving | :40:19. | :40:24. | |
them wholehearted support. Device honourable gentleman I think has | :40:25. | :40:27. | |
made a powerful and important point about the incredible job that they | :40:28. | :40:33. | |
do. The contribution that they make and what that means for them in many | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
cases. I have a huge amount of respect for their professionalism, | :40:41. | :40:44. | |
but just that personal dedication that they bring, and I'm sure the | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
whole House will wish to underline that message of support to the | :40:48. | :40:51. | |
incredible job that they do. Moving to the Bill before the House, I've | :40:52. | :40:56. | |
updated the House twice on the political situation in Northern | :40:57. | :40:59. | |
Ireland in recent weeks and honourable statements on the 20th of | :41:00. | :41:03. | |
March and May written ministerial statement of last week, on both | :41:04. | :41:06. | |
occasions I set out what I would seek to bring forward legislation | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
with two aims in mind. To provide the legal basis for an executive to | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
form and is at a regional rate to enable that importance source of | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
revenue to be collected. As we approached this final week of this | :41:21. | :41:23. | |
Parliament, I believe that now is the right time to deal with both of | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
these matters to provide greater certainty for the people of Northern | :41:28. | :41:30. | |
Ireland and to provide the opportunity for the parties to come | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
together to secure the resumption of devolved Government. The background | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
leading up to the Bill today will be familiar to many in this House, Mr | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
Speaker. The collapse of the US executive in January placed a duty | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
on me to set a date for further election. I did so in January with | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
the election held itself on the 2nd of March. Since then the UK | :41:51. | :41:54. | |
Government has been engaged in parts with the political parties and, as | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
appropriate, the Irish Government in accordance with the well-established | :41:58. | :42:02. | |
three stranded approach. The Stockton had one clear purpose, to | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
be established an increase of devolved administration in a line | :42:06. | :42:11. | |
with the 1998 Belfast agreement and its successors. Progress was made on | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
several fronts during that preys on the formation of an executive, | :42:16. | :42:17. | |
including the budget and programme for Government. There was progress | :42:18. | :42:22. | |
in terms of legacy. Constructive discussions took place with all the | :42:23. | :42:25. | |
parties on the detail of the legacy is that uses set out in the Stormont | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
House agreement and on the need to reform legacy inquest. No one will | :42:31. | :42:33. | |
underestimate the challenge in addressing the legacy of the past, I | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
do believe that the proposals are now sufficiently developed that the | :42:38. | :42:48. | |
next step should be to publish proposals for consultation. That way | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
we can listen to the views of victims and survivors and also all | :42:52. | :42:53. | |
those who will be most affected by the proposed new institutions. | :42:54. | :42:55. | |
However, despite the progress that was made, there remains a graphite | :42:56. | :42:58. | |
number of outstanding there is a lack of agreement between the | :42:59. | :43:02. | |
parties and it was clear that a period of reflection was necessary | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
to give the impetus for discussions to conclude positively. It was | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
fitting that in mind, that total cost of a stir and since then | :43:11. | :43:16. | |
meetings have continued between the parties. The restoration of devolved | :43:17. | :43:22. | |
Government remains achievable. It remains the absolute priority. This | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
will require more time and more focused engagement by the parties on | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
the critical issues that remain. Holding on the discussions over the | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
course of the past seven weeks. The Bill before this House today would | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
provide the space and the opportunities for the parties to do | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
just that. We will remove the present legal barriers so that the | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
assembly can meet at ten executive can be formed at any point from | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
Royal assent to the 29th of June. Three weeks after the general | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
election. We recognise that there will be focused on the general | :44:00. | :44:03. | |
election, that is why the Bill provides parties with the scope and | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
space to continue discussions to resolve the outstanding issues are | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
providing a period of reflection for the new Government in a deal still | :44:12. | :44:16. | |
does not prove possible. That said, it remains highly desirable by the | :44:17. | :44:22. | |
parties to continue to work to make progress quickly for the reasons | :44:23. | :44:26. | |
I've set out. This Bill does not preclude the formation of an | :44:27. | :44:29. | |
executive sooner if the parties wish for that to happen. That, Mr | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
Speaker, is an important point. In passing this Bill, we make clear | :44:37. | :44:39. | |
that the responsibility lies with the parties to come together and | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
make progress. As I have indicated, I strongly believe that that can | :44:45. | :44:48. | |
still happen. We have removed the legal barrier to progress, enabling | :44:49. | :44:54. | |
executive to form without the need for a further assembly election. If | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
the parties have the will to make progress between now and the end of | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
June, therefore, the platform is in place for them to do just that. We | :45:03. | :45:09. | |
should not lose sight of the benefits of an agreement in the | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
meantime would have for the people of Northern Ireland. I'm sure that | :45:14. | :45:19. | |
will be the hope of those voters who gave the parties a mandate on the | :45:20. | :45:26. | |
2nd of March. I would like to pay tribute to the opposition for their | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
constructive, positive engagement in the process leading up to the | :45:31. | :45:36. | |
introduction of this Bill. In that regard, I would like to pay | :45:37. | :45:40. | |
particular tribute to the honourable member for Leighton who may be | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
making his final appearance at the dispatch box as Shadow Secretary of | :45:46. | :45:49. | |
State for Northern Ireland. Despite our broader political differences, I | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
would like to thank him for the overall support he and his party | :45:53. | :45:57. | |
have given to me since I became Secretary of State last July. | :45:58. | :46:04. | |
Northern Ireland undoubtedly benefits from the broadly bipartisan | :46:05. | :46:07. | |
approach we take in this House, at whatever the result of the general | :46:08. | :46:12. | |
election, I hope that that will always continue. I do wish the | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
honourable member of the very best for the future. His presence will be | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
missed, I know, by many across this House, who will wish him well with | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
whatever new opportunities and new challenges he takes forward. Moving | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
to the substance of the Bill, as I indicated, clause one would remove | :46:31. | :46:35. | |
the present legal barrier to an executive been able to form to | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
enable any deal reached to be implemented. It would register Datuk | :46:40. | :46:45. | |
retrospectively reset the 14 day clock any Northern Ireland act 1998 | :46:46. | :46:52. | |
which had expired and the 27th of March with 108 day period removing | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
the present duty on me to set a date for an election with it rising again | :46:57. | :47:03. | |
at 4pm on the 29th of June if an executive had not been formed by | :47:04. | :47:07. | |
that point. This will provide the space for a Executive form, making | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
clear that the responsibility lies with the parties, indeed that duty | :47:14. | :47:17. | |
to form an Executive to appoint ministers in that process. As | :47:18. | :47:22. | |
necessary, it would provide a period for further talks in the parliament, | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
allowing all sides to take stock and move forward in the deal was not | :47:27. | :47:29. | |
already in place. It would also mean that if a deal is not struck there | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
is a period for the new Government to properly consider the way | :47:35. | :47:37. | |
forward. That is important, Mr Speaker. Or in the absence of a | :47:38. | :47:42. | |
deal, they would be significant decisions to be made in the new | :47:43. | :47:46. | |
parliament to provide a little stability in Northern Ireland. | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
However, it would be for the parties to seize the opportunity, whether in | :47:53. | :47:56. | |
the coming weeks or soon after, to deliver the executive that they have | :47:57. | :48:04. | |
so clear a mandate to secure. I've mentioned previously the two acute | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
issues of financial uncertainty caused by the lack of an Executive. | :48:09. | :48:16. | |
The first is the absence of a 2017 - 2018 original rate which represents | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
more than the 5% of the total revenue available to the Northern | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
Ireland Executive. Normally this would be set by the Department of | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
Finance earlier this year, via an affirmative rates order in the | :48:29. | :48:31. | |
assembly. This would have enabled the bills to be issued in ten | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
instalments, giving certainty to ratepayers and allowing various | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
payment relates to be applied. Time has nearly run out, however, for | :48:42. | :48:46. | |
that course. If no rate is set in the next few days, there will be | :48:47. | :48:51. | |
fewer bills in higher instalments. The longer it takes to set a rate, | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
the worst that situation would become. The hourly outcome, Mr | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
Speaker, with the bad debt, lost revenue, uncertainty and hardship. | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
So while we are clear that this is a devolved matter, we are also clear | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
that only the UK Government can take action to secure the interests of | :49:15. | :49:19. | |
individual businesses and indeed the Executive itself. Clause two of this | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
Bill will address this issue by setting a 2017-2018 regional rate in | :49:25. | :49:28. | |
Northern Ireland. It does so by setting p per lb rates for both | :49:29. | :49:33. | |
domestic and nondomestic properties. These represent a 1.6% inflationary | :49:34. | :49:39. | |
increase, the same approaches were taken by the Executive in setting a | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
rate of the year before. As we make clear in clauses two, four and five, | :49:44. | :49:49. | |
it would not cut across the continuing right of the Executive to | :49:50. | :49:54. | |
set a rate in the usual way. This would be the most limited step | :49:55. | :49:58. | |
available to others, taken at a point beyond which we cannot delay. | :49:59. | :50:08. | |
I will give way. The Secretary of State is very well outlining the | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
business that this House may have to do, do this as it has to do today. | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
But does he accept that we should not be in this place? Because of the | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
arrogance of Sinn Fein who walked away from the Executive and has left | :50:24. | :50:26. | |
Northern Ireland in the predicament that we're today. | :50:27. | :50:31. | |
What I can say is that in the recent election, I think a clear mandate | :50:32. | :50:37. | |
has been set to see the resumption of the devolved Government in | :50:38. | :50:42. | |
Northern Ireland. An inclusive devolved Government. That is where I | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
think the focus needs to be, getting that Executive back into position, | :50:48. | :50:51. | |
dealing with, yes, differences that do exist between the parties in | :50:52. | :50:54. | |
Northern Ireland. But I think the responsibility that we all should | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
feel is that actually seeing an Executive back into position is | :50:59. | :51:02. | |
important, working to serve the best interests and needs of the people of | :51:03. | :51:05. | |
Northern Ireland. That is where I think our absolute and resolute | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
intentions should lie. For completeness, although not covered | :51:12. | :51:14. | |
in the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, the second financial matter is the | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
lack of 2017, 2018 budget itself. Its absence has meant that since the | :51:21. | :51:24. | |
beginning of this month, civil servants alone have been in charge | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
of allocating cash which is clearly not an acceptable solution for the | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
longer term. Before Easter, I made clear they would provide further | :51:36. | :51:39. | |
assurance in this regard is an Executive was not in place. | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
Consistent with the UK Government's ultimate responsibility for | :51:45. | :51:46. | |
political stability in Northern Ireland. So, I wish to take this | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
opportunity to provide further clarity to people, businesses and | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
public services in Northern Ireland. We very much hope, as I have said, | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
that we will see an Executive up and running as soon as possible. But if | :52:00. | :52:06. | |
that was not proved possible, I want to put on record that this | :52:07. | :52:10. | |
Government would be prepared, as a last resort, to pass an | :52:11. | :52:15. | |
appropriation act in the next session to provide legislative | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
authority for the expenditure of Northern Ireland departments. This | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
is not a step any Government would take lightly. But the size must not | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
forget the duties we must uphold for the people of Northern Ireland. I | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
will give way. He has identified a very important issue, the lack of | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
budget. But would he accept that even with the assurances he has | :52:41. | :52:43. | |
given the House today, there are still tens of thousands of people | :52:44. | :52:47. | |
within the voluntary and community sector who depend upon money from | :52:48. | :52:55. | |
Government departments. Money which they cannot be assured of at this | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
stage. And therefore, they find that their jobs currently are in jeopardy | :52:59. | :53:07. | |
and faced with uncertainty. The longer he leaves this decision, the | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
more he leaves the people in that particular sector of the economy in | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
a horrible position. He makes an honourable point about the voluntary | :53:18. | :53:21. | |
community sector in Northern Ireland. In coming forward with the | :53:22. | :53:23. | |
ministerial statement I have and in what I have said this afternoon, I | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
very much have them at the forefront of my mind. Knowing that some people | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
have been put on protective notice, the impact of uncertainty around | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
whether payments will be continued beyond the current window. I know | :53:38. | :53:42. | |
that assurance has already been given by the civil service and | :53:43. | :53:49. | |
departments in funding for three months. But what further assurance | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
can be given? Therefore, by providing comfort to permanent | :53:54. | :53:55. | |
secretaries through the written statement I have made, I have | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
advised Government departments will be able to extend current letters of | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
comfort, to actually give that greater support and flexibility for | :54:05. | :54:09. | |
the voluntary and community sector. But his broader point that he makes, | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
about the need for greater service, max 70 and a need for the budget to | :54:14. | :54:16. | |
be put into division, is absolutely right. This is not a situation that | :54:17. | :54:22. | |
can continue for much longer. And therefore, it is why I have said | :54:23. | :54:29. | |
what I have about the preparedness of this Government, if re-elected, | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
to make steps to seek an appropriations bill in this House. | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
Should that prove necessary. As I have indicated already, I earnestly | :54:36. | :54:40. | |
hope that it will not prove necessary and that an Executive can | :54:41. | :54:43. | |
and will be formed to actually make those decisions. And in making the | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
statement I have today, it in no way cuts across the ability for an | :54:51. | :54:53. | |
Executive itself to come into position and set a budget in due | :54:54. | :54:56. | |
course. I give way to the honourable gentleman. One of the key points in | :54:57. | :55:04. | |
running the budgets is the flexibility and running those | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
budgets. We know that the civil servants will run departments will | :55:08. | :55:12. | |
wither budgets. But the little bits of flexibility that match when we're | :55:13. | :55:18. | |
being run as politicians to help people... How does the Secretary of | :55:19. | :55:21. | |
State seat in the future if we have not got a functioning Assembly? Will | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
there be some mechanism so that the people on the ground who have lost | :55:27. | :55:28. | |
money and cannot do something can actually listen to someone? This key | :55:29. | :55:37. | |
thing is for an Executive to be formed. That is the way that | :55:38. | :55:41. | |
assurances and direction can be provided. The lack of political | :55:42. | :55:44. | |
direction at the moment is one of the key aspects that underpins the | :55:45. | :55:49. | |
need to see an Executive that needs to see prodigal decision-making | :55:50. | :55:51. | |
being made in Northern Ireland at the earliest opportunity. But as I | :55:52. | :55:56. | |
have indicated to the House this afternoon, it is also the | :55:57. | :56:00. | |
preparedness of the UK Government to take action should that be | :56:01. | :56:04. | |
necessary. And that is that sense of the responsibility that we have is | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
the UK Government to provide the necessary political stability and | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
assurance for the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland. I | :56:16. | :56:19. | |
give way. To be absolutely clear about this, the Secretary of State | :56:20. | :56:26. | |
is stating to the House today that the choice is very clear. It is | :56:27. | :56:32. | |
devolution or direct rule. I putting in place the points made about | :56:33. | :56:34. | |
appropriations, the ground workers being laid for direct rule, if that | :56:35. | :56:41. | |
is required. I do not in anyway way want to prejudge the outcome of the | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
coming weeks. I earnestly hope and believe, and want to see, devolved | :56:46. | :56:48. | |
Government re-established in Northern Ireland. That is what is | :56:49. | :56:53. | |
profoundly in the best interests of Northern Ireland, seeing that local | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
decision-making. I think the strong message should come across this | :56:57. | :57:00. | |
House of wanting to see that into position at the early stop at | :57:01. | :57:05. | |
Trinity. -- earliest possible opportunity. I have been careful in | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
what has said in our position in the budget, giving an assurance today in | :57:12. | :57:14. | |
allowing flexibility for the Northern Ireland Civil Service to | :57:15. | :57:16. | |
use the residual emergency powers that they have to be able to deal | :57:17. | :57:21. | |
with the pressures that they are already experiencing, and to be will | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
to ensure public services will continue to be run in the manner | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
that they are. I have published a written ministerial statement which | :57:33. | :57:36. | |
sets out indicated departmental allocations which reflect the budget | :57:37. | :57:39. | |
priorities and decisions of the last Executive. These provide basis for | :57:40. | :57:47. | |
allocations in the absence of an Executive. It is important to make | :57:48. | :57:50. | |
the point that these are not UK Government numbers but rather | :57:51. | :57:54. | |
reflecting the advice of the head of the Northern Ireland civil service | :57:55. | :57:58. | |
as to his assessment of the position that takes account of the priorities | :57:59. | :58:01. | |
of the political parties prior to the dissolution of the Assembly, as | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
well as for the occasion is he considers are required. -- other | :58:07. | :58:15. | |
allocations. And in relation to the basis of which they want to plan and | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
discharge responsibilities in the meantime. However, we should be | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
clear that these totals would not constrain the future freedom of an | :58:26. | :58:29. | |
incoming Executive to amend spending allocations. Nor the UK Government | :58:30. | :58:33. | |
in situations it might need to reflect upon in terms of the final | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
allocations in the light of circumstances at the appropriate | :58:39. | :58:40. | |
time. But I do underline the position that the bill sets out, | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
that if agreement is not reached by the 29th of June, that in essence | :58:46. | :58:51. | |
the electoral duty would then come back to the Secretary of State in | :58:52. | :58:55. | |
terms of calling an election within a reasonable period of time, but | :58:56. | :59:00. | |
obviously, any incoming Government would need to reflect very carefully | :59:01. | :59:03. | |
on the stability and position in Northern Ireland. As I have | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
indicated, what might be a need to deal with certain financial issues. | :59:08. | :59:12. | |
But we need to be focused and resolutely focused on seeing that we | :59:13. | :59:16. | |
get an Executive into position. That is precisely what this bill will | :59:17. | :59:26. | |
allow for. I will give way. Thank you. I thank my right honourable | :59:27. | :59:31. | |
friend for his statement. Could I ask my right honourable friend if he | :59:32. | :59:34. | |
has seen the slightest indication from Sinn Fein that they might | :59:35. | :59:45. | |
consider being part of an Executive in a very detailed and long | :59:46. | :59:48. | |
negotiations he has no doubt had so far? Yes, I have. That is why I | :59:49. | :59:55. | |
believe that agreement is possible. I believe that the discussions that | :59:56. | :59:59. | |
have taken place over the recent weeks have shown where the space for | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
agreement might live. Where the space for compromise might lie. And | :00:06. | :00:08. | |
that is why it is important that this bill provides that space and | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
opportunity for the parties to be able to find resolution of the | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
outstanding issues. And get back into devolved Government, which is | :00:18. | :00:20. | |
what the people of Northern Ireland voted for. To go back to the point | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
of the budget, the budget does not allocate, for example, to be clear, | :00:25. | :00:28. | |
the resource in capital funding provided the Chancellor's March | :00:29. | :00:33. | |
budget. This funding was not allocated before the dissolution of | :00:34. | :00:36. | |
the last Executive and we believe it is right that funding is available | :00:37. | :00:39. | |
for parties to allocate two father priorities as they deem appropriate. | :00:40. | :00:45. | |
For the detail on these -- other detail on the spending plans will | :00:46. | :00:48. | |
have to be provided through the appropriation act itself. My hope is | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
the act will be when taken for the Northern Ireland Assembly but that | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
relies on the Executive being formed and, as I have indicated, with a | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
focus should live. But if not, as I have said, we would be prepared to | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
legislate to provide certainty in line with our ultimate | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
responsibility. Political this possibility and good governance in | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
Northern Ireland. -- political stability. Can the Secretary of | :01:14. | :01:20. | |
State clarify whether such legislation, in that context, would, | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
in his mind, and meant to direct rule in the sense that we have | :01:24. | :01:29. | |
always known it? Or would it be some sort of downloadable legislative | :01:30. | :01:31. | |
cover for administrative governance, when it comes to budgets? Again, I | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
would not want to prejudge what the situation might be. That will be for | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
an incoming Government. But my point remains that that does not need to | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
be the outcome. The outcome we want to see is an Executive being formed. | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
The outcome you want to see is devolved Government being put into | :01:53. | :01:54. | |
place, making decisions within Northern Ireland for the people of | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
Ireland. That is why I make the point that I do in terms of what | :01:59. | :02:03. | |
this bill provides, how it does give the space to allow that to happen. | :02:04. | :02:07. | |
And that must be the focus of all of us in the time ahead. I believe that | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
in passing this bill, we can provide the scope and space for a deal to be | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
done by the parties. And it will be working intensively with the parties | :02:19. | :02:22. | |
to ensure that that outcome appears in the weeks ahead. Northern Ireland | :02:23. | :02:28. | |
needs to see the restoration of an inclusive devolved Government | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
working in Northern Ireland's best interests. That is what the people | :02:33. | :02:35. | |
of Northern Ireland voted for and that is what will deliver the public | :02:36. | :02:39. | |
services that people rely upon. That is what businesses, community groups | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
and individuals across more violent want to see. -- across Northern | :02:44. | :02:51. | |
Ireland. I commend this bill to the House. The question is, the bill now | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
bear the second time. Mr David Anderson. -- now be read. | :02:57. | :03:06. | |
Thank you very much. Can I start by agreeing totally with the words from | :03:07. | :03:13. | |
the Secretary of State about what happened yesterday. It clearly is | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
not where we need to be in Northern Ireland. It is probably the main | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
reason why we need to get this resolution and get Executive of them | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
running again. I also thank and very kindly for the worse he said about | :03:24. | :03:30. | |
me. I congratulate him on the work he has done and shared with me over | :03:31. | :03:33. | |
the past difficult times to try and find a way forward. This is a debate | :03:34. | :03:42. | |
did not want to be taken because the reality is that this is combined | :03:43. | :03:46. | |
political failure on behalf of all politicians right across these | :03:47. | :03:55. | |
islands. It has led to this sad situation facing us today. Not many | :03:56. | :04:01. | |
years ago, the world looked on with the mature Maze and and admiration | :04:02. | :04:06. | |
when politicians put to one side centuries of animosity and hate to | :04:07. | :04:10. | |
build a new future for the people they serve. -- with amazement. I am | :04:11. | :04:20. | |
mindful of the issues that have caused the current impasse that has | :04:21. | :04:28. | |
brought us here today. Northern Ireland has seen drastic changes in | :04:29. | :04:33. | |
the past few decades. Difficult challenges are still to come but the | :04:34. | :04:35. | |
current charges should not be, by any means, insurmountable. Serious | :04:36. | :04:43. | |
matters faced as in 2008 and in 2007, but the repercussions of | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
failure here are equally as serious and dangerous. | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
I believe with goodwill and all size, agreement can be reached but | :04:54. | :04:57. | |
people will have to reach compromise. I also wish to highlight | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
one of the main sticking points but forward Bridges about the quality. I | :05:02. | :05:06. | |
would say to the honourable member who raised the issue before about | :05:07. | :05:12. | |
the intransigent Sinn Fein. None of those are surprised that Sinn Fein. | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
What has surprised me about the position we find ourselves in is how | :05:18. | :05:24. | |
strong these feelings about the present Executive go right across | :05:25. | :05:27. | |
the nationalist community. It isn't just one political party who has | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
real concerns. One issue of concern is the failure to move on equality | :05:33. | :05:38. | |
legislation. The Democratic Unionist Party is proudly a party of June in | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
as and yet they seek to limit the quality and rights to people in | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
Northern Ireland. The access to abortion and the rights of members | :05:49. | :05:54. | |
of the LGBT community that I a real part of the United Kingdom. They | :05:55. | :06:00. | |
widely oppose this Bill it has been extended to the United Kingdom. Why | :06:01. | :06:03. | |
should two people who love each other not be able to show that in a | :06:04. | :06:08. | |
formal marriage ceremony in Northern Ireland as they can in the rest of | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
Great Britain? And why should a woman in Northern Ireland not have | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
the right to choose what she does with her own body? Should these | :06:16. | :06:22. | |
ideas of equality and fairness that fact as cordially idea of identity | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
as core to me as they are Deborah Nelson on these islands. Another | :06:28. | :06:32. | |
sticking point which we are seeing progress on is the issue of the | :06:33. | :06:37. | |
Irish language. Again it is another example of rights that are enjoyed | :06:38. | :06:41. | |
by other people across Great Britain are not available in over the | :06:42. | :06:46. | |
island. This is seen as part of the fact that in Wales and in Scotland | :06:47. | :06:53. | |
that there is legislation that provides protections for their | :06:54. | :06:56. | |
respective indigenous languages. Even in Cornwall, there is counsel | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
for Cornish language strategy. Why does the Northern Irish treaty want | :07:04. | :07:13. | |
to... I will give way. I think before the shadow spokesman | :07:14. | :07:16. | |
pontificates on these issues he should at least try and get his | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
facts right in Northern Ireland, 100s and the ?1 million has already | :07:22. | :07:27. | |
been spent on giving the Irish language community the ability to | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
have their own schools, some schools have been opened at less than 14 | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
children. They have street names if they wish to have them. Britain and | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
the Irish. Letter headings and apartments in Irish line which. A | :07:42. | :07:46. | |
whole range of other kinds of issues at rest. If years later talked about | :07:47. | :07:51. | |
the promotion of the Irish language, at least get his vice right before | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
he starts pontificating. I'm more than happy to... He's got more | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
practice at that and I have. The point I'm making is there is a | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
difference in the protections in Northern Ireland and that is what is | :08:07. | :08:10. | |
being asked for by the nationalist community. They do not have the same | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
legislative basis as they do in Wales and Scotland. That is one of | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
the things that politicians in Northern Ireland could put right | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
tomorrow. They could have put it right over the last ten years, they | :08:23. | :08:25. | |
could have put it right since the talks broke down in January. They | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
have chosen so far not to. I will indeed. Thank you, Madam Speaker. | :08:30. | :08:38. | |
The shadow Secretary of State is going through a list of the Sinn | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
Fein demands. I just wish he would come and talk to us from time to | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
time, because we have issues, and one of the issues is the Armed | :08:48. | :08:51. | |
Forces covenant which is implemented in full in every other part of the | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
United Kingdom except for modern Ireland. Where the shadow Secretary | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
of State now join us in demanding that Sinn Fein honour that | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
obligation and agreed to fully implement the Armed Forces covenant | :09:04. | :09:13. | |
in the violent? No I have a lot of respect for him, he says I promoting | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
what Sinn Fein is saying will stop these are the issues that have led | :09:19. | :09:20. | |
to the impasse. They are not just Sinn Fein issues, and it is for this | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
House and the people outside, the rest of Great Britain, who might not | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
have the inside knowledge that the member has that I am raising these | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
issues for. To try and define where problems are and try to point out | :09:33. | :09:36. | |
the magic and negotiate your way out of this if you want, but the point | :09:37. | :09:40. | |
of talking to his body, the net with his leader last week on these very | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
issues and I was very pleased to see that she is prepared to have | :09:45. | :09:48. | |
discussions across the board, so in that example we are trying to work | :09:49. | :09:54. | |
as we always have in a nonpartisan way. On the covenant, please to see | :09:55. | :10:02. | |
my honourable friend the chairman of the Northern Ireland select | :10:03. | :10:04. | |
committee, we work together on the Armed Forces covenant, the report on | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
which we agreed, to call on all parties to do the right thing by the | :10:10. | :10:13. | |
people who have served our country, so I don't take any lessons on the | :10:14. | :10:19. | |
covenant from the member behind me. Other discussions that the party had | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
been having, gleefully can reach the agreement which is beneficial to the | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
Irish language community, but also to the point that has been raised | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
with me by his leader in novel and Islands that what we want is more | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
support for the needs and heritage of the Ulster Scots community. I | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
believe that could be negotiated if people were serious about trying to | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
find a way forward. I understand that some of the reasons why some of | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
the parties in Northern Ireland are against legislating for an act is | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
because it was seen as a side deal that was done by Tony Blair many | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
years ago. That might have right or wrong time, it moved things on, I'm | :11:00. | :11:04. | |
saying now it is another thing that could be done today, a relatively | :11:05. | :11:07. | |
small step in the right direction, to try and resolve the issues that | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
are outstanding. I will give. Does he honestly believe that any of the | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
things that he has read out today from the dispatch box have isolated | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
the breakdown of the Assembly? Does he really in his heart believe any | :11:23. | :11:26. | |
of that? And if he does, he's really saying to this House that he does | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
not believe in devilish and armour because no region of the United | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
Kingdom should have its differences recognised. Revolution has allowed | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
for that. On the basis of devolution, the Honourable member | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
says no, everything should just be the same. As someone who is a | :11:43. | :11:50. | |
passionate supporter, I do not take that glitters is. I believe that we | :11:51. | :11:57. | |
have got a situation that is at breaking point. We need to find a | :11:58. | :12:03. | |
way forward. I spent all my life in negotiating situations in constant | :12:04. | :12:05. | |
revolution as a trade union representative before I came to this | :12:06. | :12:10. | |
House. The truth is we have a situation that should be resolvable, | :12:11. | :12:13. | |
but as long as people are saying they are not prepared to move I've | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
met on both sides, I am pretty come on other things, but let's be | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
prepared to move, will end up with the reality that this House will | :12:24. | :12:29. | |
probably have to take back direct control in Northern Ireland and that | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
way nobody 's's interests. It would not be an interest in revolution or | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
in the interest of people governing themselves. I want to move on to the | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
issue of legacy. One of the biggest issues facing all of ours market has | :12:45. | :12:48. | |
been for many years. Both how we deal with Northern Irish tragic | :12:49. | :12:55. | |
past. The truth is we all us, collectively failed the victims of | :12:56. | :12:59. | |
the Troubles. It only serves to compound are suffering through our | :13:00. | :13:06. | |
lack of action. Regardless of the background or if they have served in | :13:07. | :13:09. | |
uniform, we are depriving them and their families the truth and the | :13:10. | :13:14. | |
closure that many of them want. The truth regardless of how hard it is | :13:15. | :13:21. | |
must be heard. I have heard details of many different cases from | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
families who've lost loved ones. But one in particular stayed with me, a | :13:26. | :13:31. | |
case of Samuel Devaney. I met with his family last year, I was informed | :13:32. | :13:38. | |
then about the death and the details surrounding his death in 1969. I | :13:39. | :13:45. | |
would like a House to bear in mind that that is almost 50 years ago. | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
That family have never had access to the relevant files. Files that are | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
now held by the Metropolitan Police and were due to be released to the | :13:55. | :13:59. | |
National Archives, but yet again they had been reclassified as they | :14:00. | :14:04. | |
had been retained by the police service until at least 2022. That | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
cannot be anything other than a travesty. Think about 1969, a very | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
different world, I was a 15-year-old boy, starting work as a coalminer. | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
England has won the World Cup couple of years before. We had joined the | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
Common market, we met two years away. I thought that we get a cheer. | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
We were two years away from a decimalisation, maybe that's the | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
next campaign began one. Brian Jones were still in the Rolling Stones, | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, they were still alive and making music. | :14:39. | :14:49. | |
During that time, on the 19th of April, Mr Devaney died at the hands | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
of officers from the RUC who would never prosecuted due to lack of | :14:55. | :14:57. | |
evidence. Mr Devaney was seen as one of the first victims of the | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
Troubles, and still today has family pleading for justice. This is as one | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
of the many cases in Northern Ireland where lack of progress in | :15:09. | :15:11. | |
countless Government, both Labour and Conservative, a dereliction of | :15:12. | :15:17. | |
duty in Westminster. I'm not making a special case, other than the fact | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
of how long it has gone on with out closure for his family. It is | :15:24. | :15:31. | |
utterly unacceptable. He is making a very powerful speech that seems to | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
include everything that has ever been committed by every person in | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
Northern Ireland. We do not accept that perhaps today has this | :15:39. | :15:41. | |
parliament comes to a close, and there is a clear financial | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
imperative to see that the Northern Ireland Government is able to | :15:48. | :15:49. | |
continue, certainly through the period of our election when the | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
minister will be somewhat constrained, and certainly through | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
the period of Northern Ireland's Assembly's demolition, when the | :15:57. | :15:58. | |
Government body can chain, would not be helpful perhaps to look | :15:59. | :16:03. | |
positively on how he can assist the Secretary of State, who has made a | :16:04. | :16:06. | |
statesman-like speech, helping to bring people together rather than a | :16:07. | :16:11. | |
device of wine which is more in tune with his party's leadership and with | :16:12. | :16:21. | |
his own spirit. What I'm telling you is these are the realities on the | :16:22. | :16:24. | |
ground. It is right and proper this House, here's what the opticals are, | :16:25. | :16:29. | |
we have thought about these item for item of the last months to try and | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
find your way of resolving them. These are issues, but they are not | :16:35. | :16:39. | |
huge issues. This is not people going to jail as they were 20 years | :16:40. | :16:48. | |
ago, not people being pardoned. This is relatively small issues but | :16:49. | :16:52. | |
genuine ones. We cannot resolve the issue of equalities, or the issue of | :16:53. | :17:02. | |
legacy, though we here for? He talks about Northern Ireland, I would | :17:03. | :17:05. | |
remind him the Northern Irish Government... We will be supporting | :17:06. | :17:09. | |
without a doubt, I have also had discussions with the civil service | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
and I am determined that they are allowed to have the powers they need | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
to carry on supporting the public service of Northern Ireland, because | :17:18. | :17:20. | |
I'm a supporter and that is one of the reasons why am involved in this. | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
I am grateful to him, but given the fact we are trying to achieve some | :17:27. | :17:29. | |
consensus here and talk about these things any serious way, he would no | :17:30. | :17:35. | |
doubt wish to on citing examples on one side when ignores that there are | :17:36. | :17:38. | |
still many families in Northern Ireland who have never had a public | :17:39. | :17:44. | |
enquiry or indeed an explanation from Sinn Fein or the IRA as to what | :17:45. | :17:47. | |
happened in love ones. I think there is only fair that he should now | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
reflect on that perhaps say something about that, too. I'm happy | :17:51. | :17:58. | |
to accept intervention, and I did make the point I only used the case | :17:59. | :18:05. | |
because of how long ago it was. If we cannot resolve matters, just as | :18:06. | :18:14. | |
genuine human beings, forget whatever your party affiliation is, | :18:15. | :18:17. | |
if we cannot say it is not right, that 40 years and something happened | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
at the families should not have the chance to... A report has been done | :18:24. | :18:32. | |
and here's the reason behind it. I give way to the honourable lady. I | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
am grateful for giving way. And sorry I wasn't here for the opening | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
remarks. I was here and I'm to hear his remarks about Mr Devaney and the | :18:43. | :18:46. | |
mention of the Royal Constabulary. My late husband was very proud, an | :18:47. | :18:53. | |
extraordinary men and women who served with courage and made an | :18:54. | :18:57. | |
extraordinary sacrifice, 302 murdered RUC officers, I wonder if | :18:58. | :19:01. | |
the honourable Geoff would like to put on record his gratitude and | :19:02. | :19:05. | |
admiration body RUC during the Troubles. I've fully will do that | :19:06. | :19:14. | |
and intended to do it anyway. I had prepared, I think it will confirm | :19:15. | :19:16. | |
the work we have done together, although we might have a different | :19:17. | :19:19. | |
view on the verge of Ireland, we have worked together had recognised | :19:20. | :19:25. | |
the role they have played. In raising these issues about legacy, | :19:26. | :19:29. | |
it is about as much as getting the truth of people have been unjustly | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
castigated for something that was not their fault, and they had for | :19:33. | :19:38. | |
years when they don't have... If we don't have clarity and we don't have | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
honestly, we will never get there. I will give way. You for giving way. | :19:44. | :19:49. | |
Can I help him with an example following on from the comments of | :19:50. | :19:55. | |
the noble member for northbound? My cousin, Samuel Donaldson, was | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
murdered by the provisional IRA on the 12th of August 19 70. With his | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
colleague cousin Roy Miller. Ever the first two RUC officers to be | :20:06. | :20:09. | |
murdered in the provisional hiring what has been known as the troubles. | :20:10. | :20:13. | |
No one has ever been brought to justice for their killings. The IRA, | :20:14. | :20:19. | |
Sinn Fein have refused to cooperate in providing the information that | :20:20. | :20:22. | |
would enable those responsible to be brought to justice. I would call | :20:23. | :20:27. | |
upon the Shadow Secretary of State to join us in calling for Sinn Fein | :20:28. | :20:33. | |
to step forward to the plate and to own up and come clean and to give | :20:34. | :20:37. | |
the information to families who have been waiting for decades for truth | :20:38. | :20:39. | |
and justice. I did not agree more with the | :20:40. | :20:46. | |
honourable gentleman. I believe that is part and parcel of democratically | :20:47. | :20:58. | |
elected politicians, making sure no-one runs away from that. Anyone | :20:59. | :21:04. | |
who has been killed as a result of trouble in Northern Ireland, | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
civilians, paramilitary or the selfies individuals who protected | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
Northern Ireland, the Armed Forces and in the RUC, they all deserve the | :21:13. | :21:16. | |
truth. I call on all parties to do all they can to make that truth | :21:17. | :21:23. | |
known. Indeed. I am grateful for him giving way. He | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
mentions the contribution of the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland. As | :21:28. | :21:31. | |
a former soldier, I wondered if he would confirm his belief that the | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
British army should not be subject to further investigations for the | :21:36. | :21:37. | |
actions that they took during the troubles? Will he confirm that his | :21:38. | :21:42. | |
party, under its current leadership, have their loyalty firmly with the | :21:43. | :21:47. | |
British army, not the IRA? It is quite clear, from my point of view, | :21:48. | :21:55. | |
that if people in uniform did not act correctly, I am sorry, I cannot | :21:56. | :21:59. | |
agree that they should not be brought to book. Because what signal | :22:00. | :22:05. | |
would be sent out? That it is right to act out of order? We expect the | :22:06. | :22:10. | |
highest standards from all our people in uniform. In terms of his | :22:11. | :22:13. | |
comments on the leadership, it is very clear that my party is | :22:14. | :22:17. | |
committed to our Armed Forces and not any terrorist organisation. Will | :22:18. | :22:22. | |
hear except, however, and this is the point member opposite was trying | :22:23. | :22:25. | |
to make, that any incident in either the police or the army were | :22:26. | :22:30. | |
involved, and we are there was a killing, should not be treated as if | :22:31. | :22:42. | |
it were murder? That is what causes the anger in so many families. Every | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
killing by terrorists was no doubt a murder. It was illegal. But | :22:49. | :22:53. | |
incidents where police officers and armed services were involved were | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
the protection of life and property and they should not be chased by | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
authorities as they are that present as if something illegal was | :23:01. | :23:06. | |
involved. I am very clear. It is obvious that the fast majority of | :23:07. | :23:12. | |
things done by the Armed Forces were not murder. But the process of | :23:13. | :23:20. | |
investigation needs to be put back together again and we need to get to | :23:21. | :23:25. | |
the bottom of it. If there are some cases that could be construed, this | :23:26. | :23:30. | |
is quite clearly in the agreement, the papers signed in the past to try | :23:31. | :23:33. | |
and make this work, we have to get the root of this and it has to be | :23:34. | :23:38. | |
aired in public. But as we say. I agree with the vast majority of | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
things that were done that we are in no sense murder by the Armed Forces. | :23:45. | :23:53. | |
In the interest of Northern Ireland and the Government, we have to get | :23:54. | :24:00. | |
the legacy stuff resolved properly. We at Label except there will be | :24:01. | :24:03. | |
some genuine issues on the National Security Council. -- at Labour. But | :24:04. | :24:14. | |
let's never use the National is -- security to cover up the wrong | :24:15. | :24:17. | |
doings of the state. I include my former colleagues in Labour | :24:18. | :24:20. | |
Government as well as his informer Conservative governments. Thank you | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
for giving way. Before you go so the issue of legacy, he spent some time | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
detailing a case which is a legacy case. I challenge him. The detail in | :24:31. | :24:40. | |
the other case that lists a unionist grievance, does he know any Unionist | :24:41. | :24:47. | |
grievances? I do. But they are not prepared to discuss it today | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
because... I will tell him exactly. I use that case because of her Libor | :24:52. | :24:58. | |
was. And I made it very clear. He probably wasn't listening. Usually | :24:59. | :25:03. | |
doesn't. Perhaps he wasn't. I make no differentiation between victims, | :25:04. | :25:07. | |
whoever they were, however they died, how they were injured. They | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
all deserve the right to have a system put in place that lets... | :25:11. | :25:20. | |
That is what has been failed by politicians in Northern Ireland. You | :25:21. | :25:23. | |
have not had a system that works properly. We have to build genuine | :25:24. | :25:26. | |
openness and confidence and trust. If we don't, then people will not | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
ever be able to move this country forward. Another issue I want to | :25:31. | :25:38. | |
raise, moving on from the legacy issue, is discussions that have been | :25:39. | :25:42. | |
taking place between political parties in the last few months about | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
the abuse of the petition of concern. It was put in place in the | :25:46. | :25:52. | |
original agreement to discuss issues around the abuse of power by one | :25:53. | :25:57. | |
community against another. It was to make sure it could not happen in | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
institutions. It is still being used as a Beatle for progress. This is | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
not the intent and we must try and get back to the original intent. | :26:05. | :26:11. | |
Very grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. On that | :26:12. | :26:14. | |
particular point, I do agree with him. One year ago, he might have | :26:15. | :26:20. | |
been in a meeting, I don't know. When I had the meeting with the then | :26:21. | :26:23. | |
first master Peter Robinson and the late Martin McGuinness, made that | :26:24. | :26:27. | |
very point to them. They both defended the petition of concern | :26:28. | :26:34. | |
process. -- the then First Minister. I tend to agree with him but that is | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
what you come up against. I have no doubt that people who want to use it | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
for the purposes of what I said, i.e., a foetal, and not genuinely | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
resolving problems, would say that. Of course they would. But this is | :26:48. | :26:54. | |
part and parcel of me trying to say, let's try and find a way to get this | :26:55. | :26:58. | |
Executive up and running again. It is not about scoring points or | :26:59. | :27:02. | |
making points about things that happened 40 years ago. These are the | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
issues that people are telling me. This is why we cannot sit down here. | :27:07. | :27:12. | |
I am saying, any reasonable human being should try to find a way | :27:13. | :27:15. | |
through this. Another one I want to address is a point again that I | :27:16. | :27:21. | |
believe agreement could be reached on. It is around the renewable | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
heating initiative. The fig we were all told was the straw that broke | :27:26. | :27:32. | |
the camel's back. -- the thing. When enquiry comes out, we will work to | :27:33. | :27:38. | |
make sure that any funding shortfall is not landed directly on the | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
grounds of Northern Ireland, unless there is a way it can be managed | :27:46. | :27:48. | |
over a period of time. That is very important, so we do not end up | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
losing funding for vital public service is well this is cleaned up. | :27:54. | :28:00. | |
We need to trust each other and move away from entrenched positions. I | :28:01. | :28:03. | |
will say this to Sinn Fein. Drop your demands for the leader of the | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
DUP to stand aside while this enquiry goes on. I ask for | :28:09. | :28:15. | |
assurances that she will cooperate with the enquiry fully, except | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
outcomes and will not hinder progress in any way. I will be a | :28:20. | :28:22. | |
huge step in the direction of the building the trust and confidence | :28:23. | :28:27. | |
that allowed sworn enemies to govern Northern Ireland in previous years. | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
I hope that people will take what I have said today in the it is bent. | :28:34. | :28:40. | |
-- it is meant. The issues that I am being told by people other reasons | :28:41. | :28:43. | |
why the system fell apart. Some people might be cynical and say, | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
that is not the reasons. No doubt we will hear that in the next few | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
hours. But I am being told these are the issues and this is how we should | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
move forward. I am sad we are in this decision today -- situation | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
today before a general election because the Government failed to | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
realise the impact on Northern Ireland. It is sad that the approach | :29:06. | :29:10. | |
taken by the Government in the last few years. The lack of dialogue at | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
present with the Prime Minister and the last Prime Minister have done | :29:15. | :29:19. | |
nothing to let the Eagle of Northern Ireland now that the more than an | :29:20. | :29:21. | |
after thought this Government's mind. It is still a situation of | :29:22. | :29:26. | |
conflict resolution. -- the people of Northern Ireland. I welcome this | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
legislation because it does provide more time for discussions about the | :29:32. | :29:41. | |
formation of an Executive. The Government did not think of the | :29:42. | :29:43. | |
effect this would have on the people of Northern Ireland. Frankly, this | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
bill does not represent direct rule, which it might well have. So I am | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
pleased we have got battered away, at least in the short term. It does | :29:52. | :29:59. | |
set them a mean it is important to set important services for Northern | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
Ireland and fill the gap in the short-term. When this bill gets | :30:06. | :30:12. | |
Royal Ascent hopefully Don Foster, we will sit down and Friday and work | :30:13. | :30:19. | |
it out. I would suggest every one of the things I have laid out today can | :30:20. | :30:22. | |
be resolved if people want to resolve them. If they do not want to | :30:23. | :30:28. | |
do that, we will be back here... I will not be, but some people will be | :30:29. | :30:35. | |
back in a few weeks' time to sort it out. I sadly believe that what we | :30:36. | :30:39. | |
saw Northern Ireland previously might well be repeated. People are | :30:40. | :30:46. | |
said, we tried 20 years to work together, it is never going to | :30:47. | :30:49. | |
happen, it will never work and the only way is to go back to what we | :30:50. | :30:54. | |
are... Wear. None of us should access that and we have to stop that | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
happening. -- access that. Point of order, Mr Paisley. | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
The shadow secretary, when he made his beach, indicated he would list | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
the number of grievances, and number of issues to do with legacy. -- made | :31:10. | :31:13. | |
his speech. Could you confirm the time we have left in this debate? | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
The shadow secretary believed he was running out of time and he does have | :31:19. | :31:20. | |
sufficient time to make those lists available to the House. I thank him | :31:21. | :31:26. | |
for his point of order. Part of it, I can answer. I would expect this | :31:27. | :31:33. | |
part of this debate to, the second reading of the debate, to last until | :31:34. | :31:38. | |
16 minutes past eight. There is plenty of time. As to the content of | :31:39. | :31:43. | |
the speech, indeed the valedictory speech made by the right honourable | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
gentleman from the dispatch box, it is not a matter for me, but entirely | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
a matter for the honourable gentleman. I am sure that if he has | :31:54. | :31:56. | |
something further to add to what he has said, he will find an | :31:57. | :32:00. | |
opportunity in the next three hours to see it. We do of course have, | :32:01. | :32:06. | |
hopefully later today, the third reading debate after the second | :32:07. | :32:11. | |
reading debate, when I will expect to hear some more speeches from both | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
sides of the House. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
I join the Secretary of State in his condemnation of the actions which | :32:25. | :32:27. | |
were taken yesterday. Another attempt to kill innocent men, women | :32:28. | :32:33. | |
and children. And it is totally acceptable in any part of the world. | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
And to think that is continuing in the United Kingdom is apparent to | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
all right thinking people. I join him in his condemnation of that. | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
Canales congratulate him on the work is done in last few weeks, which | :32:47. | :32:53. | |
probably seemed like months to him. Yesterday's absolute utmost, I know, | :32:54. | :32:57. | |
to bring the parties together in Northern Ireland, to get the | :32:58. | :33:00. | |
institutions and running again. I would also like to thank for keeping | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
in touch with me, as chairperson of the select committee, and I thank | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
him for that and wish him well in his future with discussions. But | :33:12. | :33:14. | |
also, I pay tribute to the honourable member on his performance | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
over many, many years in this House. He has worked here many years and | :33:21. | :33:23. | |
there was very sorry to hear that he is not going to seek re-election to | :33:24. | :33:27. | |
Parliament. He was a long-standing and very active and extremely good | :33:28. | :33:32. | |
member of the select committee for many years before he took up his | :33:33. | :33:37. | |
present position. He is, I can confirm, Madam Deputy is bigger, it | :33:38. | :33:41. | |
often negotiate. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. But he is a fair man and it | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
was a pleasure working with them. I wish them well for the future. It is | :33:47. | :33:52. | |
unfortunate that we have to be here yet again to discuss these matters. | :33:53. | :33:58. | |
It is unfortunate that the rates have to be set from this place. That | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
is not entirely democratic. It is not, in any way, satisfactorily. | :34:04. | :34:08. | |
Following an election where there was a high turnout of voters, we end | :34:09. | :34:12. | |
up taking decisions here in this place, which should be rightly taken | :34:13. | :34:17. | |
in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, it is worse than that because that | :34:18. | :34:21. | |
is just a microcosm of a bigger situation. I do know that there are | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
individuals, businesses and many others in Northern Ireland that | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
really do see the breaking down of institutions as a distraction from | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
what they want to do. Only last week, I had a meeting with the | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
business that wants to expand and wants to bring potentially hundreds | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
of jobs to Northern Ireland. And they did not know where they are. | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
They did not know what the situation is. They do not know how the | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
planning process will work because it is a large application. They | :34:50. | :34:52. | |
really do regret this situation and it is not one that any of us want to | :34:53. | :34:57. | |
find ourselves in, but here we are again. | :34:58. | :35:01. | |
And glad that the Secretary of State outline the options because if it is | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
found, he didn't use the words direct rule, but that is also what | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
we are sliding towards if we cannot get the institutions up and running | :35:12. | :35:14. | |
in Northern Ireland. It is not something I want to see happen. But | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
I do want to see that the concerns the Company made with the last week | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
are addressed. I won individual to create the jobs in Northern Ireland | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
without the distraction of repeated elections or decisions being taken | :35:29. | :35:35. | |
in a place far away, that is not what those kind of people want. Just | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
a couple of weeks ago I was in Northern Ireland on a social visit, | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
speaking to friends over there, actually Catholics if that is an | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
important factor, it is an important factor because of what I'm about to | :35:50. | :35:54. | |
say. They said to be, get on with it, bring direct rule back, that is | :35:55. | :35:58. | |
the only way we're going to get any decisions taken. They don't | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
particularly want to see that, most people probably don't want to, but | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
if it is a choice between chaos and direct rule, people will go for | :36:06. | :36:09. | |
direct rule. They have too. It is rarely unfortunate that we have got | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
to that position, I can I just say to those who are likely to bring | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
about that situation, and it is not people who are present in the | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
chamber today, in my belief, it is people who refused to take their | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
seats in this chamber, it really would be rather paradoxical, strange | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
that the one party that don't want rule from this place are fighting a | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
party that brings it about. How odd that be? Let me just perhaps if they | :36:35. | :36:41. | |
are listening about what direct rule really means, I was a shadow | :36:42. | :36:45. | |
minister when we had it in the previous parliament, it doesn't been | :36:46. | :36:48. | |
actually that this chamber decides everything, it doesn't mean that. It | :36:49. | :36:53. | |
means there are committees upstairs of 20 or so members, hand-picked by | :36:54. | :37:00. | |
the whips, very few of those members would be from Northern Ireland | :37:01. | :37:05. | |
because of the mathematics of it. Things, very important matters are | :37:06. | :37:08. | |
decided in this committee. That is the reality of direct rule. I would | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
say to those who are getting in the way obvious that set up again is | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
that how you want Northern Ireland to be governed? We accept that Sinn | :37:17. | :37:22. | |
Fein have got form on this issue. When they want to dodge, and this | :37:23. | :37:26. | |
has never got some resonance in the current situation, when they want to | :37:27. | :37:32. | |
dodge hard decisions, they are quite happy despite their rhetoric to hand | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
powers back to Westminster for the hard decisions to be made, as they | :37:41. | :37:43. | |
did with welfare reform about a year and they have a go. The honourable | :37:44. | :37:50. | |
gentleman makes a very good point, I don't know what their logic is. I | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
genuinely don't know. As I've said, the other party that shout the | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
loudest about their opposition to British rule, and yet they seem to | :38:03. | :38:07. | |
be the party that are about to bring it about. Certainly cannot | :38:08. | :38:11. | |
understand the logic of that position. As I say, I don't want to | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
go down that road. There is time to avoid that road. But I think that | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
taxes onto the next point, and that about power-sharing. All sides, the | :38:22. | :38:27. | |
say no to power-sharing, have good except what that means, which is | :38:28. | :38:31. | |
working with people you don't necessarily like, want to work with. | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
It means compromising on certain policies, you don't always get the | :38:38. | :38:42. | |
exact policy that you want. Come to think of it, I suppose every | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
political party is like that. We all have discussions within political | :38:48. | :38:50. | |
parties, we all have disagreements on policy within political parties. | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
We all have to work within political parties with people who perhaps we | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
don't want to work with. That is the reality of politics. That is the | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
reality of many jobs. If you work in a company, of course you have to | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
work with people you don't like. Of course you have to work on policies | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
with people you might not agree with. That is the nature of work. If | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
they are not prepared to accept those compromises, if they are going | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
to run away every time there a difference of opinion, take the ball | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
home and Bingley is the juices down, it won't work. They have to except | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
that all parties -- parties and not just talk about one party, all | :39:27. | :39:32. | |
parties have except that. By all means. Madam Deputy Speaker, is the | :39:33. | :39:40. | |
member... I'm not here to represent Sinn Fein, but as the members | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
seriously suggesting that we should have turned a blind eye to the | :39:48. | :39:50. | |
crisis over the new build the initiative and done nothing? The | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
member to my mind is ignoring the fact that this crisis was triggered | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
by a serious issue of confidence that needs to be resolved and needs | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
to be dealt with. While other things have piled in controller abuse and | :40:08. | :40:10. | |
there's a lot of it coming from the bench here behind me, but the point | :40:11. | :40:16. | |
is this, it serves no purpose and if we had to go forward we need to | :40:17. | :40:19. | |
restore devolution in Northern Ireland, and we're going to do that, | :40:20. | :40:23. | |
we have to behave in a sane and sensible and mature fashion and | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
recognise the fact... It is a pleasure working with the honourable | :40:31. | :40:32. | |
gentleman on the select committee as well, and the bid is a great deal of | :40:33. | :40:40. | |
calm and common sense to it. I understand what he's saying, had I'm | :40:41. | :40:42. | |
not saying it should be brushed under the carpet, but I don't see | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
why they could not have been an enquiry carried on with the then | :40:46. | :40:52. | |
First Minister still in place. I think to risk bringing the whole | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
institutions down on any issue, I don't think that is worth it. That | :40:59. | :41:04. | |
is a big issue, it is worth half ?1 billion over 20 years, I don't think | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
that is a big enough issue to bring down the institution. No, I don't. I | :41:09. | :41:16. | |
commend him for all he has done as chairman of the Northern Ireland | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
affairs committee. Will he agree with me that at times we see double | :41:20. | :41:23. | |
standards operating in Northern Ireland? Any constituency of south | :41:24. | :41:27. | |
Belfast, we had a most brutal murder in a pub of a young man by members | :41:28. | :41:38. | |
of the IRA, and as a result this party and others questioned the | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
ability of Sinn Fein and their fitness for Government and | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
confidence in that fitness, and yet the SDLP did nothing. Absolutely | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
nothing. Nothing to challenge Sinn Fein on that issue in terms of their | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
fitness for Government. Are they not double standards operating here? Is | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
one more that not one more than the scandal? The Right Honourable member | :42:05. | :42:12. | |
raises an important point. It goes back to the point I was trying to | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
make earlier. We either except that we had the work would be will be | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
don't like don't want to work with, well, we don't. And if we don't | :42:22. | :42:24. | |
accept that, there is no power-sharing. It is to believe | :42:25. | :42:30. | |
that. It is true, I'm afraid it is a very good point. I'm afraid it is a | :42:31. | :42:35. | |
very good point that parties on both sides have to work with people they | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
don't want. There are accusations about certain members of the | :42:40. | :42:46. | |
Assembly, and if they are in this place then we have to work closely | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
with them, maybe we wouldn't look like that either, but it has had to | :42:51. | :42:52. | |
happen for the sake of demolition, for the sake of years the juices. He | :42:53. | :42:59. | |
is right to draw our attention to some of the terrible crimes which | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
have been committed, and the shadow minister has an questioned on | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
quoting crime from across-the-board, I know that he very much condemned | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
crimes wherever they come from, just this morning I was done by the | :43:17. | :43:19. | |
select committee is looking at concluding its report into Libyans | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
answered IRA activity, and I was at the leading the proposed document | :43:25. | :43:27. | |
this morning without going into the details, because the committee has | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
not considered it, but in that draft report today are many examples of | :43:32. | :43:38. | |
IRA violence, the way the IRA has poured lighter part, and just | :43:39. | :43:42. | |
rereading some of those things this morning in the car as I came down | :43:43. | :43:46. | |
really does remind us of what has gone on in Northern Ireland and how | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
unacceptable it was full stop but I don't want to get into the issue of | :43:51. | :43:53. | |
the prosecution of the soldiers at this point. It's going the central | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
part of the debate. Of course one side in the Commons always reverted | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
the war. The reason the reverted as a war is because it excused the | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
indiscriminate killing of men and women and children, that is why they | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
call it a wall. The other side I expected ago the book by the yellow | :44:14. | :44:18. | |
card. That seems to me a very unfair way of looking at this whole | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
situation and the legacy issue. I thank him for giving way and I can't | :44:24. | :44:29. | |
him as a framed in terms of the support he gives the Northern | :44:30. | :44:31. | |
Ireland too many years. Does he accept the night that the Bill | :44:32. | :44:36. | |
before the House has not tipped the scales in favour of direct rule? | :44:37. | :44:41. | |
Tonight people in Ulster will be watching their televisions and it is | :44:42. | :44:45. | |
this House that is setting their rates. But last ten years it has | :44:46. | :44:48. | |
been a Northern Ireland Assembly that was setting their rates. With | :44:49. | :44:53. | |
that balance being kept, with each piece of legislation that comes | :44:54. | :44:56. | |
forward, it has go to make it harder and harder and harder to get back to | :44:57. | :45:03. | |
demolition. I think he puts his finger on the problem. It is a | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
slippery slope. In some ways the Bill offers the opportunity as well | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
for people to get together and can reform the Executive, it does allow | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
for that. That is part of the Bill as well. But the right honourable | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
gentleman is right, it is actually not this whole House that is going | :45:20. | :45:24. | |
to decide the rates, it is going to be, with respect, the only way he | :45:25. | :45:27. | |
could do committee Secretary of State. It goes back to what I said | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
about direct rule earlier. All Honourable members won't get a say | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
on the detail of things whereas if it was set in Northern Ireland there | :45:36. | :45:39. | |
would be much more involvement by local people, so that would be | :45:40. | :45:43. | |
indeed far better. I want to conclude by just making this point. | :45:44. | :45:48. | |
I really do hope that the Secretary of State somewhere other is able to | :45:49. | :45:51. | |
get the parties together in Northern Ireland we avoid committees upstairs | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
running Northern Ireland, which is as I've said, most unsatisfactory. | :45:57. | :46:01. | |
If he does even if he doesn't, I said this in the House before, I | :46:02. | :46:07. | |
really do think we need to look at some of the Belfast agreement, | :46:08. | :46:10. | |
legislation, deceive it needs updating, and that is not in any way | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
to undermine the principles or power-sharing or anything else. It | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
is an attempt to make it work. At the moment it isn't working. I as we | :46:19. | :46:22. | |
would be sitting here now. We wouldn't have been in crisis 18 | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
months ago either. I don't want evident to be set up only to find | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
another crisis is some six or 12 months later. I think the shadow | :46:32. | :46:34. | |
city and state passed on it earlier with that petition of concern issue. | :46:35. | :46:38. | |
I did raise that and was told that the parties are happy with it at | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
that time. I think that needs looking at, but a lot of other | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
things be looking at, semi-moderniser, updated, so the | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
whole arrangement is able to address the situation that we find ourselves | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
in now and not the one we were in 20 years ago, because without that a | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
lot of progress has been made, be cannot deny that and shouldn't want | :47:00. | :47:03. | |
to. But we have to get the political process right as well, because if we | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
don't, what will happen is people will completely lose faith in it. | :47:09. | :47:19. | |
That is nobody 's interest. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I | :47:20. | :47:23. | |
associate myself with the comments of the Secretary of State about the | :47:24. | :47:28. | |
terrible discovery made yesterday, and indeed commend all emergency | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
services and the police for their tremendous efforts on their | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
community 's behalf? And idiot also for his words about the shadow | :47:37. | :47:40. | |
Secretary of State, stepping down not only from this position but for | :47:41. | :47:46. | |
that form the shadow sexy assay for Scotland, his efforts on both units | :47:47. | :47:50. | |
are very much appreciated. I will be very brief. The SNP will support the | :47:51. | :47:55. | |
passage of this Bill, the decisions being made would be better made than | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
the other side of the Irish Sea, but we are where we are, and it is | :47:59. | :48:02. | |
important to get rateable value set so that the ministration of public | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
services can continue. There are Brexit difficulties coming down the | :48:08. | :48:09. | |
road, especially around the border issues, and it is right to do all be | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
can to minimise the turbulence, but these decisions should more properly | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
be made in storm at. There is a real need to get the little | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
administration install mod back up and running and I am fairly sure | :48:23. | :48:25. | |
that the electorate that has been asked to go back to the polls for a | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
snap general election so soon after a snap storm a collection will be | :48:30. | :48:33. | |
urging a resolution to the negotiations and a resumption of | :48:34. | :48:37. | |
administration duties. Getting an administration running, so that | :48:38. | :48:40. | |
decisions are taken there rather than here, would be the best option | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
all round and that should be our main aim. As I said, the SNP will | :48:46. | :48:56. | |
support this Bill. Can I begin by echoing previous comment | :48:57. | :48:59. | |
co-operatively by the Secretary of State on the vile and callously bomb | :49:00. | :49:04. | |
left outside the Holy Cross primary school and commend all those in the | :49:05. | :49:11. | |
security forces who handled the incident and who are handling | :49:12. | :49:15. | |
similar incident 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every day of the | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
year, and we all owe them a great deal of thanks by the manner in | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
which they continue to police Northern Ireland. Can I also pay | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
tribute to their predecessors, who created the conditions under | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
intensively difficult circumstances and extraordinary provocation, which | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
enabled the peace process to take place? On that basis, I wholly | :49:39. | :49:43. | |
commend the comments on my right honourable friend, the Secretary of | :49:44. | :49:46. | |
State, who has shown remarkable for parents and patients, has been | :49:47. | :49:52. | |
abused and criticised I think quite unfairly in recent weeks, and has | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
let himself in for a further extension to two the 29th of June, | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
which I think is a wholly sensible measure, and he quite rightly said | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
there isn't a single member that I know in this House who would like to | :50:07. | :50:13. | |
see direct rule return. As the shadow sexy said in his last | :50:14. | :50:16. | |
validated performance, we were missing in the next parliament, | :50:17. | :50:18. | |
quite rightly concurred as well, there was never to hear that was | :50:19. | :50:23. | |
direct rule to come back. There is a slightly darker narrative that some | :50:24. | :50:30. | |
sort of crazy Brits want to reimpose. Absolutely not. | :50:31. | :50:38. | |
The institutions were set up and the agreement pastor did the most | :50:39. | :50:44. | |
extraordinary period of negotiation and bipartisan agreement, one | :50:45. | :50:48. | |
Conservative administrations made intensely difficult decisions that | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
were supported by the Labour opposition and in time, when Labour | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
came to power, we were in opposition and we supported the Labour | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
Government and I was, had the honour to be the shadow secretary when the | :51:04. | :51:08. | |
last major element went through, which was the devolution of policing | :51:09. | :51:13. | |
and justice. And we backed Labour all the way. And we saw a similar | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
process in Dublin, where both main parties consistently supported the | :51:19. | :51:23. | |
process, and of course, none of this could have happened without the | :51:24. | :51:24. | |
extraordinary support of both parties in the United states. And | :51:25. | :51:31. | |
there is now exasperation that we have come to this point. There's | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
been such progress made, and I would like to speak up for those hard | :51:36. | :51:38. | |
working people on the ground in Northern Ireland will stop. The | :51:39. | :51:46. | |
right honourable member and I appeared in spotlight if you weeks | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
ago and a woman asked the question is, she asked, what about our | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
budget? Who will pay our bills? That was exactly the right question to be | :51:56. | :52:00. | |
posed. She, along with many others, he probably voted in the election on | :52:01. | :52:07. | |
March to to elect politicians, local politicians to make those decisions. | :52:08. | :52:13. | |
None of us want to make those decisions for local politicians. And | :52:14. | :52:18. | |
I go and see those wonderful, world-class businesses who are | :52:19. | :52:20. | |
trying to attract investment in Northern Ireland, who are travelling | :52:21. | :52:25. | |
on behalf of Northern Ireland, representing brilliant, hard-working | :52:26. | :52:27. | |
Northern Ireland people, and what is the international message? Will he | :52:28. | :52:36. | |
accept that there is a longer term strategy that is now re-emerging | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
from Sinn Fein and that is to make Northern Ireland unstable? So the | :52:42. | :52:47. | |
people of Northern Ireland actually start questioning Northern Ireland's | :52:48. | :52:50. | |
ability to govern itself and maybe it is a tactic of their is that they | :52:51. | :52:58. | |
are re-emerging into. Think I would like to -- I don't think I would | :52:59. | :53:03. | |
like to comet on the motives of any political party. I've been involved | :53:04. | :53:09. | |
in Northern Ireland as the shadow secretary and real Secretary of | :53:10. | :53:11. | |
State, and there is such goodwill across all parts of the community. I | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
don't like talking about communities, like to talk about the | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
whole community. There is, for this to work, real goodwill. And there is | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
now exasperation. And I am particularly exasperated. My | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
project, which involves rapid editors of four parties and the | :53:28. | :53:33. | |
fifth one was also supportive, was to give the ability of Northern | :53:34. | :53:37. | |
Ireland politicians to set corporation tax. Because we know | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
that the Republic of Ireland's determination in the face of intense | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
criticism from other major member state of the EU to hold onto its | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
right to set corporation tax has been the key to their success. The | :53:49. | :53:52. | |
then Finance minister in Dublin, who as I say was the corner stone of | :53:53. | :54:01. | |
their success, as part of what was... The agreement, it was vital | :54:02. | :54:06. | |
that the democratic institution in a devolved area was able to make that | :54:07. | :54:10. | |
decision. For me, having got this through, having got unity amongst | :54:11. | :54:13. | |
Northern Ireland parties, having got pretty well all Northern Ireland | :54:14. | :54:18. | |
businesses supporting this, knowing the tremendous good it could do, | :54:19. | :54:24. | |
knowing that just over the border there is an extraordinary amount of | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
investment because of the corporation tax, and so much of that | :54:28. | :54:33. | |
could have gone to Londonderry if that rate had been set, it is just | :54:34. | :54:37. | |
exasperating that for me, this is one of the greatest achievements of | :54:38. | :54:42. | |
the coalition Government and I hate rich tributes to my honourable | :54:43. | :54:47. | |
friend from Chipping Barnet, it is there. The powers are there, if only | :54:48. | :54:55. | |
local politicians would grab that opportunity and establish an | :54:56. | :55:01. | |
Executive. So briefly, Madam Deputy Speaker, I support this bill, I | :55:02. | :55:06. | |
endorse the comments of the Secretary of State and the shadow | :55:07. | :55:09. | |
Secretary of State is that Lord would like to see is an Executive | :55:10. | :55:14. | |
set up -- what we would like to see is an Executive set up. It is | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
necessary to set a regional rate, sadly, we have to do that. They'll | :55:22. | :55:25. | |
temporarily. And I think it is sensible, and I wish him well, for | :55:26. | :55:30. | |
the Secretary of State to set a lengthy target of the 29th of June. | :55:31. | :55:37. | |
But if the local politicians elected still don't come to their senses by | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
then, I really would ask the Secretary of State to consider | :55:45. | :55:47. | |
bringing back legislation here on the issue of the cost of Stormont. | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
Very quickly, Madden and beady speaker, Stormont costs about ?1 | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
million per month in salaries and expenses for members of the | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
assembly. And I know full well on the ground, numbers of the Northern | :56:03. | :56:11. | |
Ireland public... Thank you to the right honourable gentleman for | :56:12. | :56:16. | |
giving way. When he was shadow Secretary of State before he took | :56:17. | :56:22. | |
office, he promised people, he went around Northern Ireland and told | :56:23. | :56:26. | |
this house that when a Conservative administration came into power, he | :56:27. | :56:28. | |
would steal with the cost of Sinn Fein MPs who take their place here, | :56:29. | :56:34. | |
don't do any work. -- you would deal with the cost. He would do nothing | :56:35. | :56:42. | |
about it, full of nothing, would he now agree that if they are going to | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
take steps at Stormont, we need to take steps at Westminster as well to | :56:48. | :56:55. | |
address the same problem of people who are elected to this house and | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
don't do their job voluntarily eyes for us on the DUP ventures, this | :57:00. | :57:09. | |
will be a critical issue. This is a critical issue, but I was Secretary | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
of State in a coalition Government and what we looking at now is a | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
Conservative Government. But honourable members, I note they | :57:16. | :57:22. | |
don't like this, there are very few tools left in the Secretary of | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
State's box. One of them is debate financial pressure on the political | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
parties. That may hurt his party, it may hurt his competitors. But I have | :57:33. | :57:39. | |
not heard from the other side way this should not be done. I have not | :57:40. | :57:43. | |
heard a single member of the public in Northern Ireland criticise this | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
will stop there was a poll in the Belfast Telegraph, and a very large | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
majority supported the idea. We still have time, following this | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
bill, if it goes through today, there will be four months and I | :57:59. | :58:06. | |
don't think it is unfair, I think this view has huge support across | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
Northern Ireland amongst the general public, I don't think it is unfair | :58:11. | :58:13. | |
to say that if elected members cannot get their act together after | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
four months, then the cease to receive public money and salary. I | :58:18. | :58:30. | |
take it, now, that he will repeat the same call in relation to members | :58:31. | :58:33. | |
here and their staff who are in receipt of public money and do not | :58:34. | :58:38. | |
do their jobs? Will you say that clearly to the Government from the | :58:39. | :58:44. | |
bench today? I am a simple backbencher, but he knows very well | :58:45. | :58:52. | |
that I believe very strongly, and Lady Boothroyd said very clearly | :58:53. | :58:57. | |
that there is no such thing as associate membership of this house. | :58:58. | :59:01. | |
She was right. Elected members of this house should take their seats | :59:02. | :59:03. | |
if they are to receive public money. But this does not get away from the | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
point I'm making, which is germane to the 29th of June, and I repeat | :59:08. | :59:14. | |
again. Should elected members not get their act together and not form | :59:15. | :59:19. | |
an Executive, the Government should take steps to stop them getting | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
salaries and expenses from the public purse, because that will put | :59:25. | :59:28. | |
pressure on them. That is what the people of Northern Ireland will be | :59:29. | :59:31. | |
the king. Imagine that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will be supporting the | :59:32. | :59:39. | |
bill tonight. I'm in agreement with the Jedi set here is a that we | :59:40. | :59:44. | |
regret that it has come to this point. Tonight, first of, echoed the | :59:45. | :59:53. | |
words of the Secretary of State and other members who have spoken in the | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
house today, congratulating the security forces on stopping the | :59:58. | :00:03. | |
murder of policemen as a result of a bomb lies outside a primary school | :00:04. | :00:10. | |
in north Belfast in the constituency of my honourable friend. Can I just | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
say, I'm disappointed... Maybe I shouldn't be disappointed with the | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
spokesman for the Labour Party on this. Here, along with the BBC this | :00:22. | :00:32. | |
morning, almost tried to associate this bowl with the fact that there | :00:33. | :00:36. | |
was a political impasse at Stormont. -- try to associate this bomb... The | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
police rejected it, the primary school rejected it, and both made | :00:46. | :00:57. | |
clear, they fully understood that the people who plans these bombs | :00:58. | :01:01. | |
don't care whether Stormont is working. It Stormont is working it | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
as an excuse, if it is not working it as an excuse, because they are | :01:06. | :01:09. | |
determined to bring terror to the streets of Northern Ireland simply | :01:10. | :01:13. | |
to get the way which they can't get through the ballot box. Somehow or | :01:14. | :01:25. | |
other, there is justification in punting bombs because of what is | :01:26. | :01:31. | |
happening in politics, there is no justification. Can I just say, very | :01:32. | :01:43. | |
clearly, he has not got it in anyway right about what I said. I condemned | :01:44. | :01:47. | |
the act, the first thing I said. What I did say at the end was that | :01:48. | :01:52. | |
the failure to get a resolution will give some people another excuse to | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
go back to the bad old days and that is nothing at all to say in anyway | :01:57. | :02:02. | |
that I condone what went on. Not a chance. And the point I'm making is | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
that they don't need excuse. Because they have been... They are committed | :02:07. | :02:14. | |
to changing the status of Northern Ireland to violence. And as I said, | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
whether Stormont is working full tilt or not working, that'll be | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
sufficient reason for them to continue what they are doing. That | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
is the first point I wanted to make. My second point is this, whilst I | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
welcome the comments that were made by the spokesman for Sinn Fein in | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
north Belfast this morning about the incident, when he talked about how | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
violent this action was, that a school should be used as a basis for | :02:44. | :02:49. | |
an attack on the security forces, that is not forget that Sinn Fein | :02:50. | :03:03. | |
used schools in the past as a means of attacking embers of the security | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
forces. Indeed, they walked into classrooms and shop part-time | :03:09. | :03:12. | |
members of the security forces. They blew up buses that had children on | :03:13. | :03:16. | |
them, taking them to school. They killed the driver 's bosses who were | :03:17. | :03:23. | |
taking children to school. Whilst we welcome the fact that they now | :03:24. | :03:26. | |
appears to be a change of heart on the part of Sinn Fein, I think that | :03:27. | :03:30. | |
it does as well to remember that the tactics which are used by the | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
dissidents are no different from the tactics that were used by the Sinn | :03:36. | :03:41. | |
Fein and the IRA for years in Northern Ireland. This is a | :03:42. | :03:47. | |
necessary piece of legislation. I think the Secretary of State could | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
have gone further when introducing this bill will stop I am making it | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
quite clear to Sinn Fein, because they... I will come to later on, | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
Sinn Fein have created the situation we're in our present and are | :04:03. | :04:08. | |
responsible for this stalemate we face at present. But I think the | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
Secretary of State should have made it clear that the alternative to | :04:12. | :04:18. | |
progress is that there will be direct rule, and that possibility | :04:19. | :04:24. | |
should have been stuck out in this house. -- the puzzles it should have | :04:25. | :04:33. | |
been spelled-out in this House. There is a policy of not offending | :04:34. | :04:43. | |
Sinn Fein, and we should pay less attention to the Northern Ireland | :04:44. | :04:46. | |
Office and more to the people on the ground. I will say to the Secretary | :04:47. | :04:49. | |
of State that had he acted more quickly at the beginning of this | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
crisis, we could have avoided the situation that we have in Northern | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
Ireland. Because time and again, he stood at the dispatch box and | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
despite the fact, the pleas from this party, from the Labour Party, | :05:01. | :05:05. | |
from the Scottish Nationalists and by some of his own backbenchers, he | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
did not initiate the investigation that could have taken the sting out | :05:11. | :05:16. | |
of the accusation that Sinn Fein were making about the Renewable Heat | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
Incentive. And time and again I heard it. Because there was not | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
agreement amongst the political parties, he could not initiate an | :05:28. | :05:32. | |
investigation and cynically, as soon as Sinn Fein had got what they | :05:33. | :05:39. | |
wanted, mainly, bringing down the Executive, the first person to | :05:40. | :05:46. | |
announce the enquiry was no less than Mairtin O'Muilleoir, the Sinn | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
Fein minister for the Department of Finance. At the Secretary of State | :05:53. | :06:01. | |
initiate an enquiry... I know that the spokesman for the Labour Party | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
talked about the need to get away from this particular part of the | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
impasse. Arlene Foster never refused to take part in a public enquiry. | :06:11. | :06:17. | |
She never refused to be prepared to go and give an account and be | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
questioned at a public enquiry. The problem was, there wasn't one! And | :06:22. | :06:28. | |
the Secretary of State, had he been prepared to grasp that that'll could | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
have avoided, at least, the excuse that Sinn Fein use at that stage | :06:34. | :06:36. | |
that they didn't have clarity on this whole issue and until that was | :06:37. | :06:39. | |
done they couldn't possibly work with other foster. But I think the | :06:40. | :06:47. | |
lesson should be led from that, that sometimes, despite the threats from | :06:48. | :06:59. | |
Sinn Fein, it is important not to listen to the wets within the | :07:00. | :07:01. | |
Northern Ireland Office and to act on his particle instincts. | :07:02. | :07:10. | |
I agree with the honourable member on the point that the Government | :07:11. | :07:22. | |
should have acted a lot more, but he is building a complete fiction in | :07:23. | :07:25. | |
trying to say that the DUP wanted a public enquiry. They opposed a | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
public enquiry, and were on the same page as Sinn Fein in doing so. It | :07:28. | :07:37. | |
was on that a few that the secretary of the nature that he and his | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
colleagues stayed out of the issue. I do not want to bore the House with | :07:43. | :07:47. | |
the details of what happened in December last year, but the First | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
Minister at that stage made it quite clear that she believed she had | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
nothing to hide, and was prepared to face an enquiry. She was prepared to | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
have that enquiry on whatever status was required to get to the truth, | :08:03. | :08:08. | |
and that is still her position. I think the second point that I want | :08:09. | :08:14. | |
to make is that this Bill is necessary because of the way in | :08:15. | :08:16. | |
which the finances of Northern Ireland have been left, and again, I | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
think there are lessons to be learned from this. I suspect that | :08:22. | :08:27. | |
the Secretary of State is going to have to come back at the end of June | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
with another Bill to implement the budget in Northern Ireland. It will | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
not be a satisfactory budget because it will probably be based on last | :08:38. | :08:43. | |
year's distribution of finances, to ensure that 100% of the budget is | :08:44. | :08:47. | |
spent, but that's no new priorities can be set, and of course, as the | :08:48. | :08:53. | |
former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has stated, one of | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
the central planks of the economic policy of the Executive will not be | :08:59. | :09:05. | |
able to be contained in that budget, because it will not be possible for | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
this House role we remain in the EU to legislate for the reduction in | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
corporation tax and to allocate the funds within the budget for that. I | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
think that that will be a missed opportunity, and one which many | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
firms in Northern Ireland and many prospective investors in Northern | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
Ireland will view as a missed opportunity. But let's look at why | :09:30. | :09:35. | |
we have no budget, because I think that this gives an indication of | :09:36. | :09:41. | |
where Sinn Fein are really at, and what prospects there are for an | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
agreement. We do not have a budget in Northern Ireland, not because the | :09:46. | :09:50. | |
Executive could not agree a budget, not because it was rejected by the | :09:51. | :09:58. | |
coalition partners, we do not have a budget because there was never, ever | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
a budget brought forward to the Executive. Now, why was that the | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
case? I think the reason why that was the case is because Sinn Fein | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
could not face the reality of having to bring forward a budget which had | :10:15. | :10:20. | |
hard decisions to be made in it. And, of course, that was true when | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
it came to the restructuring of the health service. There was a report | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
on restructuring the health service which could have saved money, and | :10:31. | :10:34. | |
which could have helped with some of the problems that were faced with in | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
the health service at present. They did not act on it. Why? Because it | :10:39. | :10:44. | |
involves hard decisions. When it came to welfare reform over 18 | :10:45. | :10:47. | |
months ago, they did not act on that either. They were quite happy for it | :10:48. | :10:53. | |
to be done by the Government here, and the question that has to be | :10:54. | :10:57. | |
asked by those of us who are involved politically in Northern | :10:58. | :11:02. | |
Ireland is, our Sinn Fein serious about getting out of this impasse, | :11:03. | :11:10. | |
or are they quite content? They will never see it, but are they quite | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
content for the process to rule on and on, have direct rule, and have | :11:16. | :11:23. | |
those difficult budgetary decisions and the decisions about allocating | :11:24. | :11:25. | |
resources and about Brexit, and about all of the other things which | :11:26. | :11:30. | |
concern them at present is? Have all of those issues decided here. They | :11:31. | :11:38. | |
can blame the big bad Brits, but they keep their hands clean, and | :11:39. | :11:41. | |
they can still give up the mess in the Irish Republic, perpetuated by | :11:42. | :11:48. | |
the bearded guru of Gerry Adams, that somehow or other they have an | :11:49. | :11:54. | |
economic policy that can avoid any austerity measures. The one thing | :11:55. | :11:57. | |
they do not want is to have to introduce austerity measures or cuts | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
in Northern Ireland, while promising the people in the Irish Republic | :12:05. | :12:06. | |
that they have some kind of economic magic wand that they could with, if | :12:07. | :12:11. | |
only they were in coalition down there. I think that is a question | :12:12. | :12:17. | |
that the Secretary of State has to ask, and that we as a party have to | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
ask. What concessions do they really want, it a question of direct rule | :12:23. | :12:27. | |
might suit their purposes until the election that takes place in the | :12:28. | :12:32. | |
Republic? Rider did not bring forward the budget? Rider did not | :12:33. | :12:38. | |
make hard decisions and they could make hard decisions in the Northern | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
Ireland Assembly? -- why did they not? That has always been that their | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
possession, they consistently run away from those hard decisions, and | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
have done in the past. -- their position. If that is the case, we | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
will have an impasse after the election on the 8th of June. The | :12:59. | :13:05. | |
other point that I want to make, Madam Deputy Speaker, at this | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
particular point, is that we have seen... ?SPACE This has been the | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
difficulty in the talks. We have seen the reason why Sinn Fein cannot | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
not into Government, or will not go into Government, change on almost a | :13:22. | :13:29. | |
weekly basis. First of all it was RHI. Brits is hardly mentioned now. | :13:30. | :13:42. | |
Was RHI such a big scandal that it should have resulted in a | :13:43. | :13:50. | |
constitutional crisis? At the fear of causing some anger on the benches | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
opposite, look at RHI in the United Kingdom. A coal mine down the road, | :13:56. | :14:07. | |
closed in order to bring would pellets from halfway around the | :14:08. | :14:12. | |
world. And no cap on the subsidy, which started off at ?400 million, | :14:13. | :14:19. | |
it is now ?600 million. By 2020, it will be 1000 million. Did the | :14:20. | :14:29. | |
Government fall? No! But yet, a ?25 million overspend, which has now | :14:30. | :14:33. | |
been corrected in Northern Ireland, cost a constitutional crisis. I | :14:34. | :14:42. | |
thank the honourable member for giving way. I think he makes the | :14:43. | :14:48. | |
point very well, but there is no issue that this House could face | :14:49. | :14:51. | |
that would persuade us to disband the whole parliament, is there a? | :14:52. | :14:56. | |
That is the point. And of course, this is a point that was made time | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
and time again, Sinn Fein were ably assisted in this by the BBC, who far | :15:01. | :15:10. | |
I think a consecutive 70 days, kept this issue in the news bulletins. | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
And of course, know it has dropped, I never even hear it mention. -- now | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
it has been dropped. Other issues have come forward, and Irish | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
Language Act. The denial of rights of the Irish language speakers, and | :15:28. | :15:33. | |
of course, and I wish them well on leaving this house, we saw the face | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
of the Labour Party this afternoon in this house, and we heard the | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
voice of Sinn Fein, when the spokesman for the Labour Party gave | :15:44. | :15:47. | |
his speech at the dispatch box. We heard the same kind of excuses, that | :15:48. | :15:53. | |
people were being denied their rights to speak the Irish language. | :15:54. | :15:57. | |
They are not being denied the rights to speak the Irish language. We fund | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
the Irish language through the Assembly to the tune of ?171 | :16:04. | :16:10. | |
million. We allowed schools to be open, Irish language skills to be | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
open, and from those schools, when there are as few as 14 pupils in | :16:15. | :16:20. | |
them, while at the same time closing schools in the state sector with 50, | :16:21. | :16:27. | |
100 pupils in them. And yet, we are told that we somehow or other do not | :16:28. | :16:30. | |
give proper treatment to those who wish to speak the Irish language. | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
Councils are free, if they wish, after following the requirements of | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
the legislation, to put Irish names on street signs across their council | :16:44. | :16:50. | |
areas. And yet, we have got this myth perpetuated that somehow, the | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
refusal to accept an Irish Language Act is the big impasse in the talks. | :16:55. | :17:01. | |
We have also been told, of course, that it is, not only that, but we | :17:02. | :17:08. | |
had at parroted again today, and it is surprising that I even saw the | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
Under-Secretary of State nodding his head when he talks about people | :17:16. | :17:22. | |
being denied their rights. Their rights, when it came to, whether it | :17:23. | :17:27. | |
was gay marriage or certain abortion rights. I would simply say to the | :17:28. | :17:33. | |
Minister, the whole point of devolution is that people in regions | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
of the Kingdom have the opportunity to make the laws reflect the views | :17:39. | :17:45. | |
in their society, and I would say the same to the Labour spokesman on | :17:46. | :17:50. | |
this issue. If you want to have uniformity, then do not devolve the | :17:51. | :17:56. | |
issue. If you are allowing their to be differences in different parts of | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
the United Kingdom, then respect devolution, and respect the views of | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
the parties that are elected to those Assemblies, who by the way, do | :18:05. | :18:11. | |
not hide it. We have never had in our manifesto is our views on these | :18:12. | :18:14. | |
issues. People vote for us on those issues, and we have a duty to then | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
reflect that in the decisions which are made. It is not about rights, of | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
course, because we have seen, despite all the rhetoric from Sinn | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
Fein about equality, respect, and rates, etc, we have seen that when | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
it comes to people who serve in the security forces, no willingness to | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
show respect they are. When it comes to the views of people who read | :18:41. | :18:47. | |
represents on many of these issues, no respect they are, and they are | :18:48. | :18:53. | |
claiming that somehow or another we have completely abandoned the | :18:54. | :19:00. | |
promises we made to those people. I would say to the Minister and to the | :19:01. | :19:07. | |
Shadow Minister, do not be taken in that that is a cause of the impasse | :19:08. | :19:15. | |
in these particular talks. We have been told that the issue is Brexit, | :19:16. | :19:21. | |
and I find that very strange, coming from Sinn Fein, because the one | :19:22. | :19:29. | |
party which will not shake the Brexit talks or the Brexit | :19:30. | :19:32. | |
negotiations or the outcome of Brexit decisions in this House, is | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
Sinn Fein, because they do not attend. And yet they want to have a | :19:38. | :19:46. | |
broad coalition against Brexit, and we find no doubt the SDLP, they do | :19:47. | :19:51. | |
involve themselves in a sectarian involve themselves in a sectarian | :19:52. | :19:56. | |
pact with Sinn Fein, so they are trying to progress as a liberal | :19:57. | :20:00. | |
Progressive pact against Brexit, including the Alliance party, the | :20:01. | :20:10. | |
Cleans, themselves against Sinn Fein. Let's make no doubt about it. | :20:11. | :20:18. | |
-- the greens. It is not about changing Brexit by their own | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
definition, it is not about changing Brexit, and yet we have been told | :20:25. | :20:28. | |
that that is another reason why we cannot progress, because the | :20:29. | :20:32. | |
Government is being disrespectful of the vote in Northern Ireland against | :20:33. | :20:40. | |
leaving the EU. I have got to say, the Government has not been | :20:41. | :20:44. | |
disrespectful. In fact, if anything, the Government has worked well with | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
the Administration, and has shown it is prepared to do so, trying to | :20:49. | :20:52. | |
address the unique issues that address the unique issues that | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
Northern Ireland faces, just as they work with the City of London, the | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
motorcar industry and other industries, addressing issues that | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
affect them. Of course there will be different parts of the country which | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
will have different issues, but the whole point is that there should be | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
a method of feeding that in. They will not be able to do that if we do | :21:16. | :21:22. | |
not have devolution. As far as the regional rate is concerned, the | :21:23. | :21:25. | |
Minister is right, we do need to have a decision made on that. It is | :21:26. | :21:31. | |
an important part of Government finance in Northern Ireland, there | :21:32. | :21:34. | |
needs to be certainty. Councils have not sent out bills because we do not | :21:35. | :21:42. | |
have the regional rate established, and therefore it is important that a | :21:43. | :21:45. | |
quick decision is made on that. I would say to the Secretary of State, | :21:46. | :21:50. | |
intervention, he cannot allow the intervention, he cannot allow the | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
budgetary issues to go on and to be delayed, because there is | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
uncertainty. There is uncertainty and apartments, they can only have | :22:01. | :22:06. | |
present, and that of course has a present, and that of course has a | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
knock-on effect, because nobody knows. And even the 90 day notices | :22:12. | :22:23. | |
to some of the suppliers, and community groups, because nobody | :22:24. | :22:26. | |
knows what the full budget is going to be, the precautionary | :22:27. | :22:33. | |
Those that can I just come in closing, make one point that as far | :22:34. | :22:43. | |
as our party concerned, there is no reason that even before this general | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
election campaign starts, that devolution should not be up and | :22:47. | :22:51. | |
running. People were elected to the assembly, when it came to, when it | :22:52. | :22:58. | |
assembly elections were held. They have a mandate to go to the | :22:59. | :23:05. | |
assembly. The starting point for these issues is the debates within | :23:06. | :23:11. | |
the Assembly. And it is only because one party in particular has laid | :23:12. | :23:15. | |
down a list of demands, first of all, they said they wanted the RHI | :23:16. | :23:21. | |
sorted out and until it was, they couldn't work with Arlene Foster. | :23:22. | :23:25. | |
And then they said it was legacy issues which hasn't been dealt with | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
by the Government. And I hope some of their interpretation of those | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
legacy issues, especially around the way in which terrorists will be | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
treated in relation to incidences involve the security forces, which | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
wannabe excepted by this Government. -- which will never be accepted. We | :23:46. | :23:53. | |
agree with me that part of the problem isn't just Sinn Fein will | :23:54. | :24:03. | |
making a series of unreasonable demands, but even before they | :24:04. | :24:10. | |
re-establish the institution, they want the institutions of running on | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
their unreasonable terms. That is exactly the point I was making. | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
These issues cannot be -- can actually be resolved within the | :24:22. | :24:30. | |
assembly. And if you want to know the position we resolve on Brexit, | :24:31. | :24:33. | |
where better to do that than ministers within the Assembly coming | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
together? If you want to sort issues around culture etc, would you do it, | :24:39. | :24:43. | |
with the debates within the Assembly. If you want to deal with | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
the legacy issues, then there is a role for the assembly in that. But | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
these things can be dealt with in the assembly. That is the place to | :24:53. | :24:58. | |
deal with them. Not saying that, unless we get these things sorted | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
out and sorted out on the terms of one party, then we will not have | :25:02. | :25:11. | |
devolution. And this is where I take issue with the former Secretary of | :25:12. | :25:14. | |
State when he says, parish Assembly Members. If you're going to punish | :25:15. | :25:21. | |
people for not doing their job, punish Sinn Fein, who have not this | :25:22. | :25:29. | |
place try for the last ten years. -- they have milked this place try. And | :25:30. | :25:37. | |
secondly, recognise that it is not the intransigence is of Assembly | :25:38. | :25:40. | |
Members generally that have led to this. And thirdly, he should know | :25:41. | :25:46. | |
this, as a public representative, there are many ways in which public | :25:47. | :25:50. | |
representatives do their jobs. Of course there is a role in the body | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
to which they have been elected. But there is also the role they have in | :25:55. | :25:58. | |
relation to their constituents. And I know that the to Assembly Members | :25:59. | :26:09. | |
in male party he were elected -- the members in my own party who were | :26:10. | :26:14. | |
elected. As well as being involved in preparing material for the talks, | :26:15. | :26:21. | |
this idea that somehow or other, they are lying at home watching | :26:22. | :26:24. | |
daytime TV and getting paid for it, he should know better! And so should | :26:25. | :26:30. | |
many of the people who are commenting on it. And if we want to | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
understand the situation, we ought to be asking, is it simply that | :26:38. | :26:45. | |
people are intransigence is because they think we are on a jolly here, | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
and it's great, let's not have the Aseembly of running? I don't know | :26:50. | :27:00. | |
any of my colleagues who do not want to be back in Stormont tomorrow, | :27:01. | :27:04. | |
doing their job, and I believe it is the case that this can be hurried | :27:05. | :27:07. | |
along and pushed along by spelling it out to Sinn Fein that is the | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
consequence of not getting the Assembly upon running is that | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
decisions will be made here. I don't want that to happen, I don't want to | :27:20. | :27:23. | |
direct rule, I don't believe it will be as good for Northern Ireland, I | :27:24. | :27:26. | |
don't believe it is good for this House to have to do that. But on | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
telly stars dressing and rather than using this generic term, the | :27:31. | :27:39. | |
parties, and he knows how difficult they have been, they took umbrage at | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
him and didn't even want him to care talks because of comments he had | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
made about the security forces. That is the kind of arrogance we have had | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
from them. I believe until that arrogant bubble is broken and | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
bursts, we're not going to be able to make any progress in Northern | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
Ireland. Order, we have plenty of time for this debate, but if the | :28:05. | :28:08. | |
honourable gentleman take much more than about 15 minutes each, then we | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
will run out of time and I have a theory, nearly put together from | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
spending many days, hours, weeks, in this chair observing the house, but | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
most things that have to be set can usually be said in 15 minutes. I | :28:27. | :28:32. | |
make no criticism of anyone who has taken longer. I nearly make a plea | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
that that would be a reasonable amount of time to take. Thank you, | :28:38. | :28:47. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. I join with my colleagues in welcoming the | :28:48. | :28:49. | |
opportunity to take part in this debate will stop did I commend the | :28:50. | :28:55. | |
Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues for their | :28:56. | :29:02. | |
conduct in the negotiations. They have, at times, been disrespected by | :29:03. | :29:05. | |
at least one of the parties, Sinn Fein, who have said some white nasty | :29:06. | :29:11. | |
things about them. But I know it is not easy to chair the negotiations, | :29:12. | :29:17. | |
particularly when you have some acting unreasonably, so I want to | :29:18. | :29:20. | |
place on record our gratitude for the role that they are playing in | :29:21. | :29:25. | |
trying to bring things together. We do want things to come together. Let | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
me be clear, from this party's prospective, and when you consider | :29:32. | :29:33. | |
where we have come from in Northern Ireland, I think it is quite a | :29:34. | :29:40. | |
workable thing to have the leading Unionist party in Northern Ireland | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
say that they have no preconditions to go into Government with Sinn | :29:45. | :29:49. | |
Fein. -- it is quite a remarkable thing. Turn back the clock if you | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
years and imagine that was the position. That the leading Unionist | :29:55. | :29:59. | |
party would be saying we are prepared to go into Government today | :30:00. | :30:02. | |
with Sinn Fein with no preconditions. And yet, it is Sinn | :30:03. | :30:07. | |
Fein who refuse to form a Government. Ourselves alone, I'm | :30:08. | :30:15. | |
told, is the literal Irish translation for Sinn Fein. The | :30:16. | :30:23. | |
honourable member for Foyle is probably better qualified on that | :30:24. | :30:30. | |
than me. But in terms of that, Sinn Fein seem to be living up to their | :30:31. | :30:33. | |
name, because as far as I conceive, or the other parties in the Assembly | :30:34. | :30:40. | |
are prepared to see a Government formed exception thing. And so, the | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
Government must be aware of that and needs to be aware of that going for | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
words. -- all of the parties except Sinn Fein. In terms of the peace | :30:48. | :30:54. | |
process going forward, I am now with a very serious doubt in my mind | :30:55. | :30:58. | |
about whether Sinn Fein really want to in Government at all. I'm left | :30:59. | :31:07. | |
with a very serious doubt in my mind about the work ability of the | :31:08. | :31:10. | |
editorial coalition model as a basis for Government, giving as it does, | :31:11. | :31:17. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, Sinn Fein a veto over the formation of a | :31:18. | :31:21. | |
Government. That is where we are coming true. The Government of | :31:22. | :31:25. | |
Northern Ireland is being vetoed, the formation of that Government is | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
being vetoed by one party, who are refusing to go into Government and | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
because the nature of that architecture and the framework for | :31:35. | :31:36. | |
Government in Northern Ireland, they have that veto. And they can | :31:37. | :31:41. | |
exercise that veto and are doing so at present. Thank you, Madam Deputy | :31:42. | :31:52. | |
Speaker, I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for allowing me | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
to intervene. The written statement published by the Secretary of State | :31:58. | :31:59. | |
for Northern Ireland last week indicated there had been some | :32:00. | :32:03. | |
progress amongst the parties, they hadn't been a complete waste of | :32:04. | :32:06. | |
time, so I think it would be hell for for the people of Northern | :32:07. | :32:10. | |
Ireland and indeed this House to understand where the progress as the | :32:11. | :32:13. | |
need and to narrow down the stumbling blocks that are being cast | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
up by Sinn Fein, I think that would be hell for to us. I think the | :32:19. | :32:21. | |
honourable lady for her intervention. I think in truth, | :32:22. | :32:29. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, some progress has been made in homing in on the | :32:30. | :32:37. | |
issues. It would be wrong to say we have reached agreement on any of the | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
issues. What are those issues? They include the legacy of her troubled | :32:42. | :32:48. | |
past. The quest for justice and truth by the innocent victims. And | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
we have, I think, come a long way in terms of developing proposals, which | :32:53. | :32:57. | |
I understand the Secretary of State is now willing to publish. For | :32:58. | :33:03. | |
consultation in the coming weeks. Something we on the side of the | :33:04. | :33:10. | |
House very much welcome. We do not believe that a failure to form a | :33:11. | :33:13. | |
Government in Northern Ireland should prevent a Government in this | :33:14. | :33:18. | |
place from proceeding with legislation to establish those new | :33:19. | :33:23. | |
legacy bodies, and I would say to the Secretary of State, well Sinn | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
Fein may have a veto over the formation of Government, it would be | :33:27. | :33:35. | |
the ultimate irony if we allowed the party that represents the | :33:36. | :33:37. | |
organisation that word of more people in the troubles than anyone | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
else -- murdered more people in the Troubles than anyone else to veto | :33:46. | :33:52. | |
the institution that help stop those murders, it is absurd that we would | :33:53. | :33:57. | |
consider handing Sinn Fein a veto over the investigation of murders | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
that were committed by the provisional IRA. We need those | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
investigationss up and running to investigate those murders, to level | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
the playing field, and I have said to the minister many times, at the | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
moment, there isn't a level playing field. At the moment, we have legacy | :34:16. | :34:22. | |
requests. At the moment, we have the examination of the events that are | :34:23. | :34:28. | |
known as Bloody Sunday. At the moment, we have a completely | :34:29. | :34:30. | |
disproportionate focus on what the Army and the police did in Northern | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
Ireland, and I echo comments made earlier which are that the killings | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
committed by the army and police were for the most part lawful, and | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
were about protecting life and the community. But of course, were | :34:44. | :34:50. | |
someone has done something wrong, then in the past, Google has | :34:51. | :34:55. | |
investigated this. But it entirely wrong that we have this | :34:56. | :35:01. | |
investigation can't of the PS and I putting so much resources to | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
investigate the police and army and so little to investigate the 90% of | :35:08. | :35:13. | |
murders that were committed by paramilitary terrorist organisations | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
in Northern Ireland, that is not a sustainable position and after this | :35:17. | :35:20. | |
election, trusting excrement will take for this legislation and | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
establish those legacy bodies. -- I trust the next Government will take | :35:25. | :35:28. | |
forward this legislation. Another issue we are awaiting to get | :35:29. | :35:34. | |
agreement on, and I referred to this earlier, is the Armed Forces | :35:35. | :35:40. | |
covenant. Sinn Fein topic on respect and equality. And this is an issue | :35:41. | :35:47. | |
of respect and equality. It is about ensuring the men and women who have | :35:48. | :35:51. | |
served in our country in the Armed Forces are not disadvantaged by | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
virtue of their service, that is the basis, the very basis of the Armed | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
Forces covenant. It is also about the wider community across this | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
nation showing respect for the men and women who served, so that | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
equality and respect is what we are properly about in relation to the | :36:09. | :36:12. | |
Armed Forces, and we need Sinn Fein Armed Forces, and we need Sinn Fein | :36:13. | :36:16. | |
to step up to the mark and for all the political parties in Northern | :36:17. | :36:19. | |
Ireland to agree to the full implementation of the Armed Forces | :36:20. | :36:23. | |
covenant in Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom. | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
In the accept that the number of people affected by that Rafa more | :36:30. | :36:36. | |
significant that and some of the other minority groups for whom Sinn | :36:37. | :36:40. | |
Fein are demanding equality and respect? I did intervene on the | :36:41. | :36:44. | |
Shadow Secretary of State to make that very point, but while he was | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
busy listing all of the groups that he says he has met, who are | :36:50. | :36:54. | |
demanding rights and equality, the one group that he missed out in his | :36:55. | :37:02. | |
remarks were 150,000, I will repeat that figure, 150,000 men and women | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
in Northern Ireland who have served in our Armed Forces. Far greater | :37:07. | :37:12. | |
that by far than the number of people who speak the Irish language | :37:13. | :37:19. | |
far greater by far than any other minority group that the Shadow | :37:20. | :37:21. | |
Secretary of State bothered to mention, and are those 150,000 | :37:22. | :37:28. | |
people, when you add to the fact that the Armed Forces Covenant also | :37:29. | :37:32. | |
covers their families, the figure is half a million people. -- 500,000 | :37:33. | :37:35. | |
people. That is not my figure, it people. That is not my figure, it | :37:36. | :37:38. | |
comes from the Northern Ireland comes from the Northern Ireland | :37:39. | :37:43. | |
Office's statistics. Over 500,000 people in a population of 1.8 | :37:44. | :37:47. | |
million people would benefit, and it would be nice to hear the Shadow | :37:48. | :37:50. | |
Secretary of State and his colleagues, for once saying, yes, | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
this is something we would want to see included, and I sincerely hope | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
that the outcome of the negotiations will be that all parties sign up to | :38:00. | :38:03. | |
the mentation of the Armed Forces the mentation of the Armed Forces | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
Covenant in Northern Ireland, if they are genuine about respect and | :38:08. | :38:08. | |
equality. Does he forgive with me -- equality. Does he forgive with me -- | :38:09. | :38:24. | |
agree with me that the Sinn Fein Secretary of State cut the budget by | :38:25. | :38:30. | |
?700,000 for the last three financial years, yet they claim that | :38:31. | :38:36. | |
we do not show respect? They could not even find enough alias to spend | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
the money on. The honourable member's contribution stands on its | :38:43. | :38:50. | |
own feet. I wonder if the honourable member would give his feelings on | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
the update with the military discussions, because the party that | :38:56. | :38:58. | |
we have all have been talking about to this debate, all they wanted was | :38:59. | :39:08. | |
equality to try to agree with our soldiers is an absolute disgrace. I | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
thank the honourable member for present invention, and on this | :39:13. | :39:17. | |
issue, our two parties agree, and we spoke with one voice in the working | :39:18. | :39:23. | |
groups dealing with the Armed Forces, because we believe | :39:24. | :39:25. | |
passionately that this issue must be addressed in the context of | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
Stormont's responsibilities to a large group within our community, | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
and I mean our community and its talented, because of course, the | :39:38. | :39:40. | |
Armed Forces draw from all sections of the community in Northern | :39:41. | :39:47. | |
Ireland, and that is something we are grateful for. I just want to | :39:48. | :39:53. | |
echo the comments that were made by the honourable member for East | :39:54. | :39:59. | |
Antrim about Brexit. I find it quite remarkable that we hear some of the | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
parties talking about the need for a special status for Northern Ireland | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
when it comes to Brexit, and yet Sinn Fein are refusing to form a | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
Government in Northern Ireland, which is the one vehicle that can | :40:14. | :40:18. | |
help to develop a consensus around how we deal with Brexit will stop I | :40:19. | :40:23. | |
want to say to the Secretary of State that, if we do arrive at a | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
situation where there is direct rule, and we do not have a | :40:31. | :40:33. | |
Government functioning in Northern Ireland, what will be unacceptable | :40:34. | :40:40. | |
is if the Government then seeks to pander to those voices that are | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
demanding a special status in the absence of a consensus, a political | :40:47. | :40:49. | |
consensus, around that issue in Northern Ireland. It is not good | :40:50. | :40:53. | |
enough to hand Sinn Fein a veto over forming a Government, and then to | :40:54. | :40:58. | |
say that parties would be excluded in the decision-making process | :40:59. | :41:07. | |
around what happens with Brexit. And therefore the SDLP, Alliance party | :41:08. | :41:10. | |
and Sinn Fein can gang up on the DUP all they want on this issue, but | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
returned to direct rule, and there is no Government in Northern | :41:17. | :41:19. | |
Ireland, we are not going to stand and allow some special status | :41:20. | :41:25. | |
against the people of Northern Ireland and the wishes of the | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
unionist community, it has to be a cross community consensus on this. | :41:30. | :41:32. | |
Nothing else is going to work in the absence of devolution, so Sinn Fein | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
and the SDLP and the Green Party and the lines Party won special status | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
for Northern Ireland, there is only one way that that will be delivered, | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
and that is by having a devolved Government. In the absence of that, | :41:48. | :41:54. | |
Sinn Fein can forget it. They can protest and dress up as funny little | :41:55. | :41:57. | |
customs men, pretending we will have a hard border, but that will not | :41:58. | :42:04. | |
wash with Brussels. The only thing that will deliver for Northern | :42:05. | :42:09. | |
Ireland as either we have our own Government, or we will be the voice | :42:10. | :42:11. | |
for Northern Ireland here in this chamber, and I fully expect a strong | :42:12. | :42:18. | |
DUP team to be returned after the general election to speak for | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
Northern Ireland in this house. I would like to say again to the | :42:24. | :42:29. | |
Secretary of State, part of this is about the budget, and I would ask | :42:30. | :42:32. | |
the Secretary of State or the the Secretary of State or the | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
minister, in binding up, on the budget, will be budget continued to | :42:36. | :42:48. | |
in continue to include... ?SPACE There are a lot of vulnerable people | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
in Northern Ireland who would like to know, and we need to expose Sinn | :42:52. | :42:59. | |
Fein on this, because the fact that this House is set in the budget, or | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
at least providing funding for public services in Northern Ireland, | :43:04. | :43:09. | |
it is and portents to know about the mitigation measures on welfare | :43:10. | :43:11. | |
reform will be included in that, and for how long. The final thing is, | :43:12. | :43:19. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that what this current crisis proves is | :43:20. | :43:24. | |
that mandatory coalition, handing a veto to one side of the community in | :43:25. | :43:29. | |
Northern Ireland, is a fundamentally flawed way of democratising | :43:30. | :43:37. | |
Government. And we wanted to see, it has long been an objective of our | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
party, that we moved towards a system of voluntary coalition in | :43:43. | :43:44. | |
Northern Ireland, that we move towards a situation where after an | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
election, the parties come together, negotiate, and agree a programme for | :43:51. | :44:00. | |
Government. Those parties want to go into Government, and those parties | :44:01. | :44:03. | |
who do not go into opposition. What we cannot sustain a situation where | :44:04. | :44:09. | |
those parties who do not want to go into Government have a beetle over | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
everybody else in forming a Government. That is not democracy, | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
that is the very antithesis of democracy. I am grateful for the | :44:17. | :44:24. | |
right honourable gentleman taking another intervention. The right | :44:25. | :44:29. | |
honourable gentleman will recall that the Belfast agreement actually | :44:30. | :44:36. | |
suggested that this was approved by referendum in Northern Ireland that | :44:37. | :44:40. | |
the Deputy First Minister 's would be jointly elected. That was | :44:41. | :44:43. | |
unfortunately changed after the St Andrews Agreement. To put the two | :44:44. | :44:50. | |
names on the same ticket, and people have to vote for those two names, is | :44:51. | :44:58. | |
that an option that the DUP would consider? We will certainly look at | :44:59. | :45:03. | |
options, but I have to say to the honourable lady, that that does not | :45:04. | :45:07. | |
solve the problem. I think if we are going to look at solving the | :45:08. | :45:12. | |
problem, we have got to be more fundamental about it. A sticking | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
plaster will not do. That is finally believe that in time, we have to | :45:19. | :45:21. | |
look again at the whole of devolution. We have to look at and | :45:22. | :45:27. | |
Italy coalition and whether that is going to work, and it is certainly | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
not working at Northern Ireland at the moment. -- coalition. We have | :45:32. | :45:37. | |
huge decisions to take about our future, not least on the Brexit. The | :45:38. | :45:42. | |
people of Northern Ireland are being denied that voice because one single | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
party representing less than 30% of the vote, is refusing to go into | :45:48. | :45:53. | |
Government. Surely, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is an unsustainable | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
position. Whilst this legislation is open today, it is a first step, | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
merely a bandage. It will not fix the problem, and we do need to fix | :46:05. | :46:14. | |
the problem. In following the right honourable member for East Antrim, | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
it struck me that the number of times that he condemned Sinn Fein | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
for using a beetle, this coming from the DUP, the most vito-holic of all | :46:23. | :46:36. | |
the parties we have seen. Let me first of all joined with others in | :46:37. | :46:47. | |
referring to the grave attack at the weekend, the attempt to murder | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
police officers, to use the precincts of a school to create | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
disruption in a community and set up a situation where yet again, so | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
police officers in Northern Ireland were going to be under threat. But I | :47:02. | :47:10. | |
cannot join in the honourable member for East Antrim's attack on the | :47:11. | :47:13. | |
BBC's first somehow making up untoward reference in relation to | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
this, because he seems to admit that his own colleague, the honourable | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
member for East Belfast yesterday, in a debate on the BBC that I was | :47:23. | :47:26. | |
part of myself, made reference to that attack in the context of the | :47:27. | :47:30. | |
political vacuum that exists and could continue to exist, which was | :47:31. | :47:35. | |
made by a member of his own party, one of his own parliamentary | :47:36. | :47:40. | |
colleagues, so to turn around and use this as yet another excuse | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
brands have yet another goal at the BBC, just seems bizarre and out of | :47:46. | :47:54. | |
place. -- yet another goal. -- yet another go. The SDLP and Sinn Fein | :47:55. | :48:04. | |
joined together to stop Jerry Kelly from being suspended from the | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
Assembly for five days. I believe the biggest abuse of the petition | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
concerned comes whenever it is used for instance, to stop motions in the | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
Assembly having any standing whatsoever, even non-binding motion. | :48:20. | :48:29. | |
If people are going to use petitions of concern about motions of censure | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
in one way, they cannot, they should recognise that people are going to | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
say, if you're going to veto it, you are creating those rules, and | :48:38. | :48:42. | |
therefore you will have to live by it. They need to return -- will be | :48:43. | :48:50. | |
need to return to what was originally agreed in the Good Friday | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
Agreement. It was provided as a trigger mechanism for an additional | :48:57. | :49:04. | |
form by a special committee for concerns to rights and equality. | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
That is all the petition of concern was provided for. Unfortunately, the | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
legislation did not properly reflect that, and left it up to Standing | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
Orders in the Assembly. The SDLP and the DUP have always been happy to | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
read it as a dead end veto, which is never what was actually in the | :49:25. | :49:30. | |
agreement, if people actually care to read the relevant paragraphs of | :49:31. | :49:39. | |
the Agreement itself. It is not a prevention mechanism against the | :49:40. | :49:43. | |
advancement of rights and equality, such as questions of equal marriage. | :49:44. | :49:47. | |
I heard the honourable member for East Antrim attack another member of | :49:48. | :49:56. | |
this House, saying that devolution is the opportunity to best make the | :49:57. | :50:04. | |
laws that reflect the views of the society, and I quite agree with | :50:05. | :50:08. | |
this. I am quite happy for the Assembly to make the laws that apply | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
to equal marriage. The problem is that the Assembly is showing a clear | :50:13. | :50:22. | |
contempt they are, similar to those in the South of Ireland, as shown by | :50:23. | :50:28. | |
referendum, it is the DUP larvae to vetoing the devolved Assembly have | :50:29. | :50:30. | |
that very legislative power. Jiri have the DUP criticising Sinn Fein | :50:31. | :50:35. | |
for not allowing the Government function to be created where they | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
are preventing the legislative function of the assembly. Who's veto | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
trumps who's in this situation? The only man -- honourable member | :50:46. | :50:59. | |
argued for a power-sharing and now is in favour of majority rule? | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
That'll go down very well with his constituents. This member is | :51:06. | :51:11. | |
entirely happy with operating the Good Friday Agreement as the people. | :51:12. | :51:18. | |
Four. -- as the people voted for. If there were not concerns in relation | :51:19. | :51:25. | |
to rights and equality, it could proceed in the normal way to the | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
community. I make no apology for my part in negotiating in drafting the | :51:32. | :51:37. | |
Good Friday Agreement, I regret that we had departed from it in so many | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
ways. And of course, the honourable lady for not made the point in | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
relation to the appointment of First Minister and Deputy First Minister, | :51:47. | :51:52. | |
when I was a to the honour among member for aligning belly, is we | :51:53. | :51:58. | |
need to get to a different way, there shouldn't be a situation where | :51:59. | :52:02. | |
one party can veto, remember it was the St Andrews agreement are | :52:03. | :52:06. | |
privatised the offices of First Minister and step at a first list | :52:07. | :52:08. | |
are tricky part is, it specified which party, the biggest party of | :52:09. | :52:17. | |
one that designation would appoint the First Minister and the biggest | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
party of another designation would appoint the deputy first. The Good | :52:21. | :52:31. | |
Friday Agreement provided for a free choice and the election of the First | :52:32. | :52:34. | |
Minister. If the honourable members in any way serious, the next time we | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
are tabling amendments in terms of telling how the first list as deputy | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
first are appointed, he should be us in supporting the amendments, not | :52:45. | :52:49. | |
opposing them. I did check with the clerks in relation to this bill as | :52:50. | :52:55. | |
to whether not the relation to ministerial appointment and allow us | :52:56. | :52:58. | |
to table such an amendment, and was told the narrow terms of the bill | :52:59. | :53:00. | |
would not allow me to table that amendment, which I have table | :53:01. | :53:05. | |
previously in the past. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is the regional | :53:06. | :53:12. | |
rates bill, no doubt the way acronyms are used in this place it | :53:13. | :53:17. | |
will be called the marble, but there's nothing memorial about this | :53:18. | :53:22. | |
bill. It is purely making exigency provisions in terms of setting | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
regional rate so that rates can be issued and candles can get their | :53:26. | :53:29. | |
paper out of the district rate, and I are great that the bill is | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
necessary, it has been necessary to bring it forward in this house, but | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
in terms of allowing the revenue to come in to support public services, | :53:38. | :53:41. | |
both those run by the consuls and those provided by the regional, | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
departments, I support the bill in these terms. It is a fair bill as | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
well in terms of resetting the meter, in terms of the appointment | :53:53. | :53:58. | |
of ministers. I note that the Secretary of State has chosen a | :53:59. | :54:02. | |
timeline that were broadly equate to what time and under the legislation | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
would be if there was an Assembly election on the same day as the | :54:08. | :54:12. | |
general. So those who have argued for an Assembly election on the same | :54:13. | :54:15. | |
big can have no objection to that particular timeline. There is | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
another coincidence in times of the timeline, we heard members referring | :54:21. | :54:26. | |
to the budget pressures that are there, and the fact that the civil | :54:27. | :54:29. | |
service are now having to assign the budget, or assign a percentage of | :54:30. | :54:35. | |
the budget, in the absence of an elected Government in the Assembly, | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
of course, the indication they might have been to all groups and budget | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
holders, including community and voluntary sector but not only them, | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
that their budget is guaranteed as it was for the first 13 weeks of the | :54:50. | :54:56. | |
financial year and that'll bring us within a calendar week of the same | :54:57. | :55:01. | |
deadline that we have. And that should concentrate minds, I hope it | :55:02. | :55:04. | |
would concentrate minds about what the consequenceswould be about the | :55:05. | :55:16. | |
absence of institutions. Will he accept that if there is no progress | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
in the timescale that is being set in the legislation today, the | :55:21. | :55:26. | |
Executive does need to bring further legislation to resolve these issues, | :55:27. | :55:29. | |
as we cannot keep going through the financial crisis that the Department | :55:30. | :55:33. | |
are currently in. What we have to do is use the time that was created | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
here now. We also have to use such goodwill as any of us were able to | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
detect in the talks in Stormont Castle over the past number of | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
weeks. I, certainly, wouldn't come to the personal conclusion that one | :55:48. | :55:52. | |
party is determined to prevent the formation of a Government | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
altogether. I wish I had more evidence that I could point to to | :55:56. | :56:01. | |
support my hunch that Sinn Fein would want to see the formation of a | :56:02. | :56:08. | |
Government. It would be better if Sinn Fein would save more public to | :56:09. | :56:11. | |
give people reason to believe that. Going back to the debate by | :56:12. | :56:14. | |
departing on the BBC yesterday, I was struck by the fact that Chris | :56:15. | :56:18. | |
Hazzard of Sinn Fein in relation to Brexit, talked about the fact that | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
Sinn Fein would have a powerful position in relation to Brexit | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
because of having four MPs and because of the fact that Dublin | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
would have a say as a member state. He paid no premium on the decisions | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
of the Assembly itself. He did not say that the important thing that | :56:35. | :56:37. | |
would help us to offset some of the challenges of Brexit is if we have | :56:38. | :56:40. | |
our own devolved Government and if that devolved Government is part of | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
using and activating the Strand to structures which are the best way of | :56:46. | :56:52. | |
things being done on a Northern Ireland bases, relevant sector is | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
being treated as an island market, and that the relevant when it comes | :56:58. | :57:00. | |
to you construct some programmes and funding as well. As has been | :57:01. | :57:04. | |
indicated, there was none of that whatsoever from Sinn Fein, so I can | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
see how people are worried that with what Sinn Fein are saying about | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
Brexit, where the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement? Of | :57:13. | :57:16. | |
course, Strand one would be pretty central to making does work, because | :57:17. | :57:20. | |
as we know, Strand to can't be activated, unless we have Northern | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
ministers in a Northern Executive. So it is imperative that we get our | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
institutions up and running and a failure to do so means that we are | :57:32. | :57:39. | |
then sentence to the car Brexit that people are complaining about | :57:40. | :57:42. | |
Thunderbird about, but also a hard Brexit in the absence of any | :57:43. | :57:51. | |
devolved, any north-south access that can be used there. Including | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
the Northern Ireland Government. Member, Strand two of the Northern | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
Ireland 's -- of the Good Friday Agreement allows that Northern | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
Ireland will be involved in any EU meetings, so it gives the Irish room | :58:06. | :58:09. | |
at a potential powerful role but I notice when Chris Hazzard was | :58:10. | :58:12. | |
referring to the Irish Government's, no reference to the fact that they | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
would be fighting the views of the north-south ministerial Council in | :58:17. | :58:21. | |
EU meetings. That might be the reflecting the views of... I accept | :58:22. | :58:31. | |
what the honourable member for the centre and said in religion to the | :58:32. | :58:39. | |
RHI. -- said in relation to the rich eye. The DUP were seething at any | :58:40. | :58:46. | |
suggestion that came from my colleague in Southdown or any of the | :58:47. | :58:54. | |
Unionist party members as well, the DUP broken that the opposed to an | :58:55. | :59:03. | |
enquiry, we made it clear that the committee was sufficient, there is | :59:04. | :59:05. | |
no need for any other enquiry, and of course, we had Sinn Fein on board | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
with that for a while as well. But things fell apart with them. Member, | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
one we hear the member free stand from question, and I would question | :59:16. | :59:22. | |
to, why was there no budget, where is there no sign of what the | :59:23. | :59:25. | |
devolved budget would have been? Back in the 21st of November, we had | :59:26. | :59:34. | |
DUP and Sinn Fein issuing joint articles, no gimmicks, no | :59:35. | :59:38. | |
grandstanding, and we had no sign of a draft budget coming. The DUP were | :59:39. | :59:41. | |
happy to say that it was good Government not to have a draft | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
budget at that stage, we now at a point where we should have had the | :59:45. | :59:53. | |
budget. The Mills and Boon version of lovely Government that we are | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
being given by Sinn Fein and the DUP back in November, but then the | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
wheels started to come off and the pressure around the RHI issue and | :00:05. | :00:14. | |
remember, what was the root cause of the arguments around the RHI | :00:15. | :00:18. | |
scandal? The root cause was that the DUP felt that they had to account, | :00:19. | :00:27. | |
not to the Assembly, that they were appointed entirely according to | :00:28. | :00:29. | |
their own mandate, we are Arlene Foster said that she had a mandate | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
from the people of Northern Ireland. The DUP's mandate was no greater | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
than the mandate that the Labour Party got in Great Britain, and yet, | :00:39. | :00:44. | |
we were being told by Arlene Foster that she had a mandate from the | :00:45. | :00:47. | |
people of Northern Ireland which meant she could ignore the mandate | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
everyone else had in the assembler, because you were appointed, because, | :00:51. | :00:56. | |
unlike what was provided for in the Good Friday Agreement, she was | :00:57. | :00:59. | |
appointed in the Assembly, she had no accountability in the Assembly | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
which is widely DUP made clear that they would veto any motion the | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
assembled pass in relation to the RHI, and of course, that's what they | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
did. And so they ignored not just what should have been the proper | :01:12. | :01:16. | |
authority and their accountability to the Assembly about, they also | :01:17. | :01:24. | |
broke the new Chila take and I'm responsible -- neutrality and joint | :01:25. | :01:27. | |
response below to that were supposed to be there and made it very | :01:28. | :01:31. | |
difficult for Martin McGuinness to continue as though no other strains | :01:32. | :01:35. | |
are present in existence. -- the mutuality. Honourable members have | :01:36. | :01:47. | |
also touched on legacy issues, unfortunately, given the advice on | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
time, I would be able to go into some of the legacy points, but I do | :01:51. | :01:55. | |
I know is the fact that the honourable member for Blaydon | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
referred to a case that happened in my constituency. I would also make | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
the point that some of the honourable members opposite have | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
raised concerns about former officers being pursued in relation | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
to former cases, I would make the point that a lot of these previous | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
cases being presented here as though people are being perceived for | :02:18. | :02:21. | |
prosecutions, have actually been in relation to inquests about | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
controversial deaths and the new inquests have actually shown that | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
the people who were killed that were previously reported as having been | :02:30. | :02:32. | |
terrorists or conmen were not, therefore that they're killing was | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
wrong. So it is entirely the judgment that legacy issues should | :02:38. | :02:41. | |
be preserved. -- reported as having been terrorists or gunmen. And this | :02:42. | :02:49. | |
House has been given false account of those deaths, so it is entirely | :02:50. | :02:52. | |
proper that those deaths should be pursued. Also English and to the | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
legacy, I would make the point that -- in relation to the legacy, while | :02:58. | :03:08. | |
there has been limited agreement, notwithstanding the disagreement | :03:09. | :03:10. | |
around national security questions, as far as the STL PR concern, we | :03:11. | :03:17. | |
want to seek more architecture involution to legacy issues, because | :03:18. | :03:24. | |
at the moment there are the individual reports in relation to | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
individual cases, not joining the dots between them. Also, there are | :03:31. | :03:40. | |
many other legacies of victimhood of the Troubles that I'd just in | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
relation to killings, -- aren't just in relation to killings, and many | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
questions that people have in relation to the pattern of violence, | :03:50. | :03:57. | |
people want to see examined and tested, and I think that is what we | :03:58. | :04:04. | |
give a more equal assessment in relation to the past. And we will | :04:05. | :04:10. | |
look at these proposals -- we looked at these proposals when we had | :04:11. | :04:16. | |
talks, there are particular ideas are wrong is wrong approach around | :04:17. | :04:23. | |
the Mattocks, which would have reflected... It window may have | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
reflected state breaches, it would have been very open and wide and the | :04:28. | :04:32. | |
Rand responsive. I'd do think we need to get back to those sorts of | :04:33. | :04:40. | |
arrangements in respect of the past. In relation to other issues such as | :04:41. | :04:48. | |
the Irish Glenwood Act, we do need to make progress their -- Irish | :04:49. | :04:57. | |
Language, Act, and back at the time of this and Andrews agreement, we | :04:58. | :04:59. | |
had a pledge from the British Government that it would legislate | :05:00. | :05:05. | |
for an Irishman would act, but the only commitment on the part of the | :05:06. | :05:10. | |
parties was for a Irish language strategy. There were ambiguities and | :05:11. | :05:13. | |
contradictions built in there. Some of us sought clarity is at the time, | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
Sam was pointed out at the time that Sinn Fein were saying that there be | :05:18. | :05:28. | |
an Irish Mind Would Act in the Assembly, and some of us would crowd | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
for pointing out the truth of the situation. But whatever the problems | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
involution to the Irish Language Act, whatever the issues in relation | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
to how things are taken for, we need to remember that Brexit is the | :05:42. | :05:45. | |
biggest issue facing us all. Wheels need to remember that if we want to | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
that at other factors that helped to bring about the discolouration in | :05:52. | :05:55. | |
the politics around our institution, the fact it was Brexit. Brexit have | :05:56. | :06:01. | |
made a much bigger difference to the political analyst in Northern | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
Ireland and people in these benches care to admit. | :06:04. | :06:09. | |
The honourable member turns to the issue of Brexit, which he says is | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
the most fundamental. Will he take any comfort from the fact that the | :06:17. | :06:22. | |
British Government has ruled out a hard border, the Irish Government | :06:23. | :06:26. | |
has ruled out a hard border, and the even you has ruled out a hard | :06:27. | :06:29. | |
border? Does he accept there will not be one? I accept that all of the | :06:30. | :06:37. | |
people the honourable member has called it has given that indication. | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
What they have not said is how it will be done. The Prime Minister has | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
also been careful to say is it will be, as extraction was as and | :06:48. | :06:50. | |
seamless as possible. No return to the hard borders of the past. -- as | :06:51. | :06:56. | |
frictionless and seamless. The best way of preventing hard borders in | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
the future is to properly use the machinery of the Good Friday | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
Agreement, which allows for areas of cooperation and joint and | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
COMMENTATOR on, and allows us to say that there should be concerted | :07:11. | :07:17. | |
action on a north-south basis. Given the EU's historic position, that | :07:18. | :07:22. | |
should be accurately reflected, and of the British Government is serious | :07:23. | :07:27. | |
about honouring the Good Friday Agreement, they should be serious | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
about honouring the Good Friday Agreement as well. We didn't have to | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
negotiate a new special status for Northern Ireland. We have to say | :07:36. | :07:39. | |
that we have the full optimisation of the Good Friday Agreement in the | :07:40. | :07:46. | |
context of any Brexit, so that we use the East-West structures of the | :07:47. | :07:52. | |
Agreement as well, not least the British, Irish inter-governmental | :07:53. | :07:56. | |
discussions. It can address all of the non-devolved issues that the two | :07:57. | :08:02. | |
governments have in common, and all ministers can be involved on the | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
devolved matters, which I believe would be a much more attractive | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
facility to devolved ministers than even European negotiations, because | :08:13. | :08:15. | |
the common expedient of all devolved administrations is that they find | :08:16. | :08:21. | |
that confusing and belittling. Using the structures and mechanisms of the | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
Good Friday Agreement would give us the best answer to Brexit, but we | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
will not do that unless we use the additional time given in this Bill | :08:29. | :08:34. | |
in an Assembly that was elected on the 2nd of March. I usually get | :08:35. | :08:48. | |
called at the end! Today I am somewhere in the middle. It is | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
always a pleasure to speak on any issue in this House. First of all, I | :08:53. | :09:00. | |
congratulate the Secretary of State on the mentation of measures in this | :09:01. | :09:05. | |
Bill. This is not where we want to be, but we are committed to the | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
Northern Ireland Assembly and to the democratic process. This Bill today | :09:10. | :09:15. | |
gives us all an opportunity, perhaps, to make a contribution to | :09:16. | :09:18. | |
it. There have been some very valuable contributions so far. We | :09:19. | :09:27. | |
had a functioning executive that was more than fit to handle this issue, | :09:28. | :09:32. | |
and to bring Northern Ireland into a prosperous economy. I would like to | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
talk in the short times I have on the positives of the Northern | :09:38. | :09:39. | |
Ireland Assembly and what they have done, and what they can deliver. | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
When you look at the stats and the figures that we have, they are quite | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
incredible. Northern Ireland has seen its unemployment rate drop, and | :09:48. | :09:57. | |
my own constituency has seen a drop of 5.3%, approximately down to 3.5% | :09:58. | :10:05. | |
for unemployment claimants. This has been achieved by the Democratic | :10:06. | :10:07. | |
Unionist Party being in Government in Northern Ireland and making it | :10:08. | :10:10. | |
work, getting their business done. That is what we do, we get the | :10:11. | :10:17. | |
business done. We supported the promotion of over 40,000 jobs, | :10:18. | :10:26. | |
beating the target of 20 5000. Positives that can happen when you | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
have a good Assembly that works together and you have parties that | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
are committed, not a one party that is stopping the whole process. We | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
have had ?585 million on research and development, almost double the | :10:40. | :10:47. | |
target of ?300 million, and 72% of new jobs have been in the Northern | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
Ireland public sector. That gives some indication of what can happen | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
when the Northern Ireland Assembly is working. It delivered, and it did | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
so at the highest level, with figures way beyond the comprehension | :11:01. | :11:05. | |
of many. We took control when we had control of the air passenger duty on | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
the long haul flights. That was taken from us by Europe, but we are | :11:11. | :11:18. | |
now going to wake the dust off her coat in relation to Europe, and with | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
men may have a working Assembly, we can put ourselves on the market | :11:24. | :11:26. | |
again for a long haul flights. These are some of the things we can do. | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
Northern Ireland has also had more than 1 million visitors in the last | :11:31. | :11:39. | |
three years, with two dozen spending ratings ?752 million in 2014, | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
increasing each year since then. 80 cruise ships and an estimated | :11:45. | :11:49. | |
145,000 guests came to Northern Ireland in 2016, and this year, the | :11:50. | :11:54. | |
figures show even more growth in that sector. Again, this happens | :11:55. | :11:56. | |
when you have a working Assembly with parties who are committed to | :11:57. | :12:08. | |
it. The DUP continued its policy, ensuring that tens of millions of | :12:09. | :12:12. | |
pounds have been saved by local businesses, protecting the small | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
business rates release scheme, which has benefited many small businesses | :12:19. | :12:23. | |
across Ireland. Again, this party did that, by approximately ?80 | :12:24. | :12:32. | |
million per year. This resulted in reduced rates bills for many | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
businesses, and 525 new businesses have benefited from the introduction | :12:38. | :12:44. | |
in 2012, when the Assembly was working, it's delivered. When it was | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
operational, it could bring success to the people of Northern Ireland. | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
This party was committed to that, and we still are, and we are looking | :12:53. | :12:54. | |
for other parties to make their contribution. For years, business | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
organisations wanted to devolved corporation tax. It has been | :13:02. | :13:03. | |
described as a potential game changer for our economy will stop | :13:04. | :13:08. | |
other parties were not sure what to do, and give up on achieving it, | :13:09. | :13:16. | |
while the DUP persisted. We have no lord the tax to a rate of 12.5%. | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
Now, there is a? Over that because of Sinn Fein, if the Assembly was | :13:23. | :13:30. | |
back and working, we could deliver that and create more jobs, this will | :13:31. | :13:37. | |
build on the strength of our workforce. It makes Northern Ireland | :13:38. | :13:41. | |
and attractive investment opportunity. When the executive was | :13:42. | :13:45. | |
up and running, it could deliver, and it should still, and it can. | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
This does not read like a non-functioning executive. This has | :13:53. | :13:59. | |
been brought down by those who had political aspirations to be in | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
control and to push a political point. Everybody who has spoken | :14:04. | :14:09. | |
today has given their opinion on political points that Sinn Fein have | :14:10. | :14:14. | |
pushed hard on, and they have been very eloquent. It was brought down | :14:15. | :14:18. | |
by those who do not have representatives in this House to | :14:19. | :14:22. | |
fight for Northern Ireland, who never set on these green benches, | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
who never make a decision based on the people for Northern Ireland who | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
have elected them. They are going to go into a new election to try to | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
determine the body cure, it is hard to believe how this can be. -- to | :14:35. | :14:42. | |
return nobody here. I will be standing, and my party will be | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
standing in this forthcoming election, as a party who worked hard | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
on the ground for our constituents. We work hard in this place, as the | :14:50. | :14:55. | |
figures and the stats will show, for our constituencies, and we work hard | :14:56. | :14:59. | |
with my party and with the DUP for our party and for our people. We are | :15:00. | :15:04. | |
left in a situation where the Secretary of State has to step in, | :15:05. | :15:07. | |
and I am thankful that he has been willing to do this. This is not what | :15:08. | :15:11. | |
we want, and not what the people of Northern Ireland deserve. Just a few | :15:12. | :15:18. | |
weeks ago, a member who has just left the chamber had a meeting with | :15:19. | :15:23. | |
the education authority chief executive, and we were pressing for | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
some funds for the outdoor sectors. At that meeting, which was very | :15:29. | :15:33. | |
constructive, with the chief Executive indicating that even | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
without the budget, they were ?73 million short this year. That is | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
what they are short without the Assembly functioning, what are going | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
to do when it continues? Does he recognise that even if the Secretary | :15:49. | :15:55. | |
of State did take the powers to take over all budgetary issues, that the | :15:56. | :15:59. | |
pattern of spend has been established in previous years of the | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
Assembly, and that any new initiatives can not be fermented, | :16:06. | :16:11. | |
simply because the power would be simply to disperse the funds on the | :16:12. | :16:15. | |
same basis as they were in the past, even though there may now be | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
different priorities, and even taking over budgetary powers is not | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
going to resolve the problem? My honourable friend and colleague for | :16:27. | :16:29. | |
East Antrim is absolutely right, but we cannot address the issues because | :16:30. | :16:34. | |
we do not have an Assembly that is working together. If we had that, we | :16:35. | :16:38. | |
could at least make some decisions, but we need those committed to the | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
finance minister to bring a budget forward, as others have indicated, | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
and it is very frustrating to be in this position. The Shadow minister | :16:48. | :16:56. | |
in this House spoke about, he gave one example that my colleague for a | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
North Antrim referred to, but he did not give any examples of those from | :17:00. | :17:05. | |
the Unionist tradition. I'm disappointed, because I do look upon | :17:06. | :17:08. | |
him as a friend and I wish them well in his retirement, but he could have | :17:09. | :17:16. | |
mentioned Bloody Friday, when bombs blew people to bits. He could have | :17:17. | :17:24. | |
mentioned those things as something for the Unionist community. He could | :17:25. | :17:32. | |
also mention the IRA murdering and killing innocent people on a night | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
out. He could have mentioned the restaurant where people were | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
murdered just having a meal. These are examples that are Unionist | :17:43. | :17:44. | |
community wants to know where the enquiries are. I will accept that | :17:45. | :17:50. | |
this is of course a pattern that we see from the Labour Party, and | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
especially the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, who has even refused | :17:56. | :18:07. | |
to acknowledge requests... The leader of the Labour Party, or the | :18:08. | :18:14. | |
member for Islington North? This is a pattern that has been established | :18:15. | :18:19. | |
under the leadership of the member for Islington North, whose has | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
refused to knowledge letters from a man whose son was killed. I am happy | :18:27. | :18:36. | |
to give way. I would like to make it very clear that I made the specific | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
point about the case I raised because it was the length of time | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
that that had happened. It was to say to people in Northern Ireland | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
and in this House, we have had 48 years to get the legacy thing put | :18:52. | :18:56. | |
right. It was not about saying, and the gentleman has just spoken about | :18:57. | :19:00. | |
at least five or six other things, that I fully agree could have been | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
mentioned. It is unreasonable for the families of all the victims to | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
wait any time, but particularly 48 years. My cousins and our family are | :19:10. | :19:18. | |
waiting 46 years for the matter to be addressed. | :19:19. | :19:26. | |
My constituents are awaiting 27 years for justice for those people. | :19:27. | :19:34. | |
We are looking for justice and we want to see it coming and we want to | :19:35. | :19:38. | |
see it coming from across the chamber. I am quite happy to respect | :19:39. | :19:44. | |
everyone else if there is a case to be answered. If that is a case from | :19:45. | :19:48. | |
our side to be answered, I want to hear it being talked about. I want | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
to hear about enquiries for unionist people who have enjoyed some 35 | :19:53. | :19:59. | |
years of terrorism. Down by the border, where people were murdered | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
because they were Protestants and unionists and White did they get? It | :20:04. | :20:09. | |
was for their land. That is an example of what happened. We never | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
hear that from elements in their cells. It has to be heard. I thank | :20:13. | :20:20. | |
him for giving way. Remember also heard we were chastised because we | :20:21. | :20:23. | |
represented certain traditional values. I have a letter from a | :20:24. | :20:28. | |
parish priest in my constituency thanking me for the work that our | :20:29. | :20:35. | |
party does standing up. I will show you the letter. Interventions are | :20:36. | :20:44. | |
getting extremely long. Members are referring to each other directly. We | :20:45. | :20:47. | |
do not do that. We speak through the chair. Really, I think the tone of | :20:48. | :20:55. | |
the debate up to now has been very good and I really do not want to see | :20:56. | :21:00. | |
that disappearing. I understand the passions and detentions and the | :21:01. | :21:03. | |
importance of this, but the tone of the debate should be maintained as | :21:04. | :21:11. | |
it has been so far. I come to my last few comments. I think the | :21:12. | :21:13. | |
Secretary of State for comment this Bill and the contribution that he | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
and the minister has made in the talks process. They have tried hard | :21:20. | :21:26. | |
to move it forward and they know you have our full support in what you | :21:27. | :21:31. | |
are bringing forward. We fully support these interim measures in | :21:32. | :21:35. | |
the hopes Executive will be able to function soon. All the things we | :21:36. | :21:40. | |
mentioned, all the things where wicked bridges and deployment. Keep | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
upgrading jobs and prosperity and focusing on the things that matter | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
for the young people today. For those he seek to spat in the wake of | :21:51. | :21:54. | |
democracy, they will realise what we have been dealing with for years. We | :21:55. | :21:59. | |
do not enjoy sitting beside unrepentant terrorists, but must do | :22:00. | :22:03. | |
so as they have a mandate and the country must function as a democracy | :22:04. | :22:06. | |
and we accept that and understand the process. They may not look | :22:07. | :22:11. | |
forward to sitting beside us but we have the mandate is the largest | :22:12. | :22:13. | |
party in Northern Ireland. This is the definition of democracy. I say | :22:14. | :22:18. | |
to Sinn Fein, if you cannot work with us, resigned your seats and | :22:19. | :22:24. | |
have those who have the good of Northern Ireland in mind to do the | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
jobs so we do not have the come here again with more interim measures | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
which indicate the democracy and failure for the people of Northern | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
Ireland. Let's be positive and let this is only an interim measure and | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
hopefully by the end of June, the parties will come together. Can I | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
ask Sinn Fein to make that contribution? Step away from the | :22:45. | :22:49. | |
high bar they have set and let's have a negotiation that leads | :22:50. | :22:51. | |
somewhere for the people of Northern Ireland. Both sides, those who want | :22:52. | :23:03. | |
a way forward. May I congratulate the honourable member for Strangford | :23:04. | :23:08. | |
for his positive contribution today. That was really what we needed. It | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
was getting the leak at times. May I also think the Secretary of State | :23:15. | :23:17. | |
for all the work he has put into Northern Ireland, gone out and | :23:18. | :23:19. | |
meeting people throughout the community and listening to people. I | :23:20. | :23:26. | |
want to echo his words and sentiments about the bomb outside | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
the premise good. Quite disgraceful. That should think should never | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
happen. We thought we had moved away from adult and it emphasises how | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
brittle the Northern Ireland situation is and how it. All of us, | :23:38. | :23:40. | |
everywhere, to find the right way forward. I also thank the right | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
honourable member for all he has done for coming and speaking to our | :23:47. | :23:53. | |
party conference, for the things I do not agree with, it stood the | :23:54. | :23:56. | |
debate up so it got quite lively and we did talk about some of the issues | :23:57. | :24:00. | |
which needed to be talked about today. There is one party who are | :24:01. | :24:06. | |
not here, they tickle the money and the fees and do not represent its | :24:07. | :24:10. | |
people and yet paints itself to the rest of the world as the cuddly bear | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
of Northern Irish politics when, in fact, it is a different type of | :24:16. | :24:21. | |
their altogether. We very much welcome the Bill today and the | :24:22. | :24:24. | |
provisions in it and the breathing space it has given to the gift of | :24:25. | :24:31. | |
June. It has allowed us to put in place the things Northern Ireland | :24:32. | :24:34. | |
once. There are key decisions needed on public finance and we know things | :24:35. | :24:39. | |
are. The most vulnerable are always be people who pay the price and yet, | :24:40. | :24:44. | |
within those budgets, there are still great difficulties looming | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
ahead of us. Schools I have been talking to save the working on | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
budgets with no plans for the future. They are using guesswork. | :24:52. | :24:55. | |
There is one case in my constituency of the GAA for the pictures from the | :24:56. | :25:02. | |
local integrated school. They can no longer do that because cuts to the | :25:03. | :25:06. | |
screen meant they cannot have a caretaker to look after the pictures | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
so they cannot train for their games. In other cases, there is | :25:10. | :25:15. | |
massive capital expenditure needed in education and a note today that | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
the budget presented is a two and a half percent cut in education and | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
this light rays and health. There are a lot of problems ahead. We need | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
flexibility in there, but in line with the question I asked earlier, | :25:28. | :25:31. | |
we need mechanisms so when people come to politicians in this time of | :25:32. | :25:34. | |
limbo for the Stormont government, that there is always a way of | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
feeding that information to the heads of Department and getting | :25:39. | :25:45. | |
action and getting some flexibility. I note that what has been put in | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
place does not have a statutory footing entirely and hope that it | :25:49. | :25:51. | |
therefore does not lead us into a world that can be challenged in the | :25:52. | :25:57. | |
courts. We would also to hear on corporation tax, which has been | :25:58. | :26:01. | |
raised earlier, what the intentions are to do with corporation tax | :26:02. | :26:07. | |
because it was meant to coming in 2018. Will the Secretary of State | :26:08. | :26:10. | |
confirm that will still be the case if Stormont is not in place. We | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
have, as many have turned two, discussed the fact that you have | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
Negi MLAs and the working away and their offices for looking after | :26:20. | :26:24. | |
people on the ground, but we'd decisions made. We should focus on | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
health and education and welfare and instead we are being dragged away | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
into the Irish language and other matters which we are finding it | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
difficult to get everyone to agree on. May I emphasise what others have | :26:37. | :26:40. | |
said, which is the legacy issues? We have defined the way forward. The | :26:41. | :26:45. | |
Secretary of State looks to bring in consultation and I welcome the | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
outcome of that, we must never forget the victims. They must always | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
be well looked after and not just in Northern Ireland. There are victims | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
over here who are not properly looked after. He knows how keen I am | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
that we are always looking after the servicemen and making sure there is | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
no equality with the terrorists and there must be a way forward on | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
legacy. There has to be a solution there and it needs of others sitting | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
down and it does need the pressure on Sinn Fein to make everyone sit | :27:14. | :27:24. | |
down. It is key that we get the Assembly up and running because of | :27:25. | :27:34. | |
Brexit and whether we should remain and we must listen to the result, | :27:35. | :27:42. | |
but we... We went to Dublin between Britain Northern Ireland affairs | :27:43. | :27:44. | |
committee and found out that Unionism is not there with its voice | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
either because of the limits of Strand to work because we do not | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
have a government of our own. We must have a way to make sure that | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
all types of Unionism, not just DUP, but UUP and others are being | :27:58. | :28:00. | |
listened to two of the Brexit negotiations. We need to see 18 MPs | :28:01. | :28:11. | |
back here, but just 14. We need to make sure everyone is being | :28:12. | :28:15. | |
represented and if you click through, it is 250,000 people in | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
Northern Ireland who are not being represented and that is very key to | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
Brexit and we need to make sure that our farmers in every constituency | :28:26. | :28:29. | |
are being listened to just as much as we are looking after our | :28:30. | :28:32. | |
universities and businesses, Trinity and voluntary sector and would keep | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
speak that God is our environment. We must make sure that that is very | :28:38. | :28:40. | |
much part of the Brexit negotiations. I am fascinated | :28:41. | :28:50. | |
listening to those recommending the mandatory coalition is not the way | :28:51. | :28:53. | |
forward. The number of times I have spoken to the Secretary of State | :28:54. | :28:57. | |
using the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
again. It is great to hear others changing their mind when looking at | :29:02. | :29:05. | |
different options. We need to find another way of working together, | :29:06. | :29:08. | |
whether it is voluntary coalition. If we have a voluntary coalition, we | :29:09. | :29:13. | |
have to make sure we look after the minorities so it is not without its | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
difficulties. You could even have a minority government if the two major | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
parties cannot agree, but we do need to sit down, all of this, and find a | :29:22. | :29:25. | |
way forward. I know every single person sitting here wants solutions | :29:26. | :29:30. | |
and can work together and one party that isn't here doesn't make it | :29:31. | :29:35. | |
easy, but it doesn't mean the other parties here are not at fault. A | :29:36. | :29:39. | |
little bit of humility, a little bit of dealing with the RHI and | :29:40. | :29:44. | |
realising it was a certain party's fault. We could work that much | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
better together and I longed to see Northern Ireland working. I do not | :29:49. | :29:52. | |
want to see devolved government failing. If it is not working, if we | :29:53. | :29:57. | |
are going to have direct route, it has to be for as short a time as | :29:58. | :30:00. | |
possible, as effective as possible but it also has to be listening to | :30:01. | :30:06. | |
all of this in Northern Ireland. I think the Secretary of State for | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
what he has put in place today. I hope we get there and I look forward | :30:10. | :30:11. | |
to seeing Northern Ireland really thrive in the future. Thank you very | :30:12. | :30:22. | |
much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I, like many in the North of Ireland, am | :30:23. | :30:26. | |
saddened that we have got to this impasse which has created the issues | :30:27. | :30:30. | |
we are trying to solve today. We have so many problems that need to | :30:31. | :30:34. | |
be faced. We will not face them or solve them by trading insults or | :30:35. | :30:40. | |
abuse, so I will attempt to be as positive as possible and I will | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
avoid a well known past and in Northern Ireland. I wanted to pay | :30:46. | :30:53. | |
tribute to the Shadow Secretary of State for his outstanding public | :30:54. | :30:56. | |
service over many years, but in This House and in the years before he | :30:57. | :31:01. | |
arrived here. Thank you David. I know that all in This House will | :31:02. | :31:05. | |
wish him well and those of us who have worked with them will miss him. | :31:06. | :31:09. | |
His kindness, his tolerance and his caring approach. Firstly, Madam | :31:10. | :31:16. | |
Deputy Speaker, I would like to touch on what I consider to be an | :31:17. | :31:22. | |
absurd and relatively insulting suggestion by my friend, the | :31:23. | :31:27. | |
honourable member for Lagan Valley, that the SDLP did nothing about the | :31:28. | :31:31. | |
killing of Robert McCartney in a bar in Belfast in 2005. His point is | :31:32. | :31:40. | |
that accurate nor well made. No one can criticise me in how outspoken I | :31:41. | :31:43. | |
was about the murder of Robert McCartney. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :31:44. | :31:48. | |
Sinn Fein come in the immediate aftermath were still trying to | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
pretend it was the result of some sort of knife crime. I unequivocally | :31:53. | :31:57. | |
pointed the finger clearly and without equivocation at IRA | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
involvement in that matter. I thank the honourable member for South | :32:05. | :32:09. | |
Belfast forgiving way. I would want to correct him and I may have got | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
the location wrong in terms of where the murder was carried out, what I | :32:14. | :32:18. | |
am talking about here is actually a tit-for-tat double murder of Jock | :32:19. | :32:27. | |
Davidson and Robert McGuigan, Kevin McGuigan, sorry, Kevin McGuigan. | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
That it occurred in a period when Sinn Fein were in government and one | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
of those murders was carried out in his constituency and there was | :32:38. | :32:40. | |
simply making the point that I did much of the honourable member on | :32:41. | :32:43. | |
that occasion when there were multiple murders involved Colin into | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
question Sinn Fein's fitness for government or his confidence in the | :32:51. | :32:53. | |
government in those circumstances. I think it is a fair point to make. | :32:54. | :33:01. | |
Well, the record will show that the member referred to a murder in a bar | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
and the only murder in a bar was Robert McCartney. Madam Deputy | :33:07. | :33:12. | |
Speaker, I was involved, active politically in criticising both the | :33:13. | :33:14. | |
murder of Jock Davidson and the murder of Kevin McGuigan. And the | :33:15. | :33:31. | |
government? I am being heckled. I can remind my honourable friend that | :33:32. | :33:36. | |
when it came to the talks that took place in Stormont house, it was the | :33:37. | :33:41. | |
SDLP who submitted The Papers in relation to a whole community | :33:42. | :33:45. | |
approach to tackling paramilitaries. It was the SDLP who put in a whole | :33:46. | :33:49. | |
enforcement approach to tackling paramilitaries and, in fact, it was | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
the SDLP who wanted paramilitary sub and criminality on the agenda and it | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
was the DUP who helped veto that. Nonsense. We risk getting into | :33:58. | :34:07. | |
arguments. We are probably deeply into it. At the time, I want to put | :34:08. | :34:12. | |
on the record, that I was very critical, publicly and aggressively, | :34:13. | :34:21. | |
on the murder... I think we are really very much in danger of | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
ranging quite far outside the Bill, or the second reading of the Bill, | :34:27. | :34:30. | |
and we are getting bogged down in the specifics about individual | :34:31. | :34:34. | |
parties and I understand why and where this is coming from, but if we | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
could keep a bit more closely to the second reading part of the Bill then | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
that would be fantastic. Thank you very much. | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, but allegations were made and I felt | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
I had to respond to them, but I will leave it at that. We can deal with | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
it privately, and sort it out over a cup of tea! Moving on, Madame Deputy | :34:59. | :35:04. | |
Speaker, I am not a violent man, so... Moving on, Madame Deputy | :35:05. | :35:11. | |
Speaker - we are in this situation now because of our failure to face a | :35:12. | :35:19. | |
reality. Will people not agree with me, the difficulties around the | :35:20. | :35:22. | |
renewable heating initiative triggered a sequence of events which | :35:23. | :35:25. | |
spun out of control. People out there want answers, and people feel | :35:26. | :35:31. | |
that they need and deserve answers. Many of those who want answers are | :35:32. | :35:38. | |
not all nationalists, many unionists are also horrified by the events | :35:39. | :35:41. | |
around that situation. I will leave it at that. Clouds of confusion or | :35:42. | :35:47. | |
poking each other in the eye only makes things worse. I say to the | :35:48. | :35:52. | |
Secretary of State that it is vital that no stone is left unturned until | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
devolution is restored in Northern Ireland. I say to him that we have | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
massive problems that must be faced. Northern Ireland is suffering from a | :36:02. | :36:03. | |
total lack of confidence in our institutions. There are many in this | :36:04. | :36:09. | |
issues facing us but four big ones are jumping out. Brexit - Northern | :36:10. | :36:16. | |
Ireland voted against it. To my mind, it will be very difficult for | :36:17. | :36:20. | |
Northern Ireland. It is multilayered, but to take one | :36:21. | :36:23. | |
example- I am inundated with community groups and community | :36:24. | :36:29. | |
workers, peace building groups in various communities who are | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
depending heavily on European peace funds to carry out their work. They | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
are facing collapse due to the lack of funding and not on any one | :36:37. | :36:43. | |
particular side of the divide. Secondly, Madame Deputy Speaker, our | :36:44. | :36:49. | |
economy, we mentioned earlier the reduction in corporation tax and how | :36:50. | :36:53. | |
that has been interfered with and delayed. Madame Deputy Speaker, | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
aside from corporation tax, there was meant to be a prosperity | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
dividend following the peace process that never came. To my mind, peace | :37:04. | :37:09. | |
will not be fully sustained unless our economy gets a boost and real | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
jobs are created? Currently, we have no budget, and this has serious | :37:16. | :37:20. | |
consequences, particularly for our schools and health service. The | :37:21. | :37:25. | |
member for South Antrim mentioned many of the problems in education. I | :37:26. | :37:31. | |
won't repeat them. But I will point out one thing - we have very | :37:32. | :37:38. | |
difficult, serious problems with underachievement and despite some | :37:39. | :37:42. | |
big successes in some schools, I would urge the Secretary of State to | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
work with me and my colleagues in north Belfast and east Belfast to do | :37:47. | :37:52. | |
what we can to solve the crisis of underachievement in education in | :37:53. | :37:57. | |
marginalised areas. It is frightening. And I would be very | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
glad, in conjunction with my colleagues from neighbouring | :38:02. | :38:06. | |
constituencies, if the Secretary of State or the undersecretary of | :38:07. | :38:08. | |
state, could find the time to visit these schools, because it's despair | :38:09. | :38:13. | |
plus for some of the people who try to teach in these schools. And these | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
are the people who are suffering more than any as a result of the | :38:18. | :38:21. | |
present difficulties. We need to deal with this education despair, | :38:22. | :38:25. | |
and the disadvantage in these areas. Because if we don't deal with it, we | :38:26. | :38:32. | |
are creating an underclass of people who will have no stake in society | :38:33. | :38:38. | |
and will be disruptive to society in the years ahead. That's if you like | :38:39. | :38:44. | |
the self-interest. The broad interest is, we have a duty to | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
ensure that all children of the nation are treated equally. On | :38:49. | :38:53. | |
health, Secretary of State, our health service is stumbling towards | :38:54. | :38:58. | |
despair. Primary care struggles to cope with hospital waiting lists, | :38:59. | :39:00. | |
particularly surgical waiting lists. I won't go into the detail. But | :39:01. | :39:09. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, I can want to make one point, and I hope it will | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
be taken with the honesty in which it is made. Attacks on the Irish | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
language... In fact I was tempted to make this speech in Gaelic today, | :39:22. | :39:24. | |
but I decided out of courtesy I wouldn't. A tax on Irish language -- | :39:25. | :39:31. | |
attacks on the Irish language and immature abuse of those who wish to | :39:32. | :39:36. | |
speak Gaelic... It is not a crime to speak Welsh in Wales, or to speak | :39:37. | :39:41. | |
Gaelic in Scotland. I would like to remind the House that 100 years ago, | :39:42. | :39:47. | |
the Irish language revival in my county, the proud county of Antrim, | :39:48. | :39:51. | |
was led by unionists. Not by nationalists. And it's disastrous to | :39:52. | :39:59. | |
hand the ownership of the Irish language exclusively to Sinn Fein. I | :40:00. | :40:05. | |
will never agree to that and I will never concur with it in whatever | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
shape or form it might be. The Irish language is the possession of no | :40:11. | :40:12. | |
political party or group. The member has requested support for | :40:13. | :40:28. | |
victims of the IRA. I could not agree with him or. I had many | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
friends murdered by the IRA and I am very willing to put on record my | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
support for any campaign for justice and honesty and openness, for all | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
victims and survivors, regardless of who they are all what their | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
aspiration might be politically. And that includes every single victim. | :40:48. | :40:50. | |
On the general point that has been made, we must solve the legacy | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
issues. Others have gone into the detail of legacy issues. We must get | :40:57. | :41:01. | |
a solution to the legacy issues. Secretary of State, I would beg the | :41:02. | :41:05. | |
Secretary of State to push on with that until we get a solution as Emma | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
it is something which will fuel instability and this content going | :41:11. | :41:16. | |
forward. Madame Deputy Speaker, all I want to do in the remaining few | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
seconds or minutes is to wish the Secretary of State every success in | :41:23. | :41:26. | |
his efforts to get devolution re-established. It is the best deal | :41:27. | :41:32. | |
for Northern Ireland and I genuinely hope that the bill today for 108 | :41:33. | :41:38. | |
days will allow the space to bring about success in restoring the | :41:39. | :41:43. | |
institutions. I would hope that striking a temporary deal will help | :41:44. | :41:47. | |
restore a degree of financial stability. And I would urge the | :41:48. | :41:52. | |
Secretary of State to pay particular attention, when it comes round to | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
helping to allocate the billions, that the Brexit people promised us | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
on the back of a Leave vote you remember that, 350-odd million a | :42:03. | :42:07. | |
week? I would urge the Secretary of State to ensure that some of that | :42:08. | :42:12. | |
money released goes towards creating a prosperity process, dealing with | :42:13. | :42:18. | |
educational underachievement and dealing with strengthening the | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
Health Service so it is able to cope with the demand in Northern Ireland. | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
Thank you thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. It gives me great pleasure | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
to be asked to speak and to follow the honourable gentleman from South | :42:33. | :42:39. | |
Belfast. In terms of this debate, I welcome the bill that has been put | :42:40. | :42:45. | |
forward by the Secretary of State insofar as it goes. It's necessary | :42:46. | :42:52. | |
but unfortunate. There is now a new deadline, but of course, a new | :42:53. | :43:00. | |
deadline which was the same deadline for the first set of talks, so it is | :43:01. | :43:06. | |
not really a deadline. I think the Secretary of State may find, if I | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
can say this to him with the greatest respect, that's a bit more | :43:10. | :43:14. | |
of a hard deadline, rather than a softer deadline, would actually | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
produce more dividends in making it clear to some people in the talks | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
process that actually, it's time to make your mind up and to make a | :43:23. | :43:25. | |
choice as to whether or not they really want devolution or not. Can I | :43:26. | :43:31. | |
also say, Madame Deputy Speaker, that having listened to the debate | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
today, whatever our differences are on these benches, and there are | :43:37. | :43:43. | |
three benches here of Northern Ireland MPs, and whatever our | :43:44. | :43:46. | |
differences are, and it can get heated at times, and especially when | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
people talk about historical events and all the rest of it, but the one | :43:51. | :43:57. | |
thing that binds us in common is that we are here to represent the | :43:58. | :44:02. | |
people who elect us, not just the people who voted for us but all the | :44:03. | :44:08. | |
people in our constituencies. We all take our seats and we all speak up | :44:09. | :44:14. | |
and stand up for Northern Ireland. And whatever the differences may be | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
between us, that is something that we have in common, and when I hear | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
some of the eulogies that have been passed in recent days to the former | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
Deputy First Minister for instance, which passed away, it needs to be | :44:26. | :44:32. | |
borne in mind that when some people said, you know, he went down a | :44:33. | :44:38. | |
certain path because he had no choice, that there were people also | :44:39. | :44:41. | |
growing up in places like Londonderry and Belfast at the same | :44:42. | :44:44. | |
time, people like John Hume who did not take up an Armalite or a bomb | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
and they could say they were from the same background, but they chose | :44:52. | :44:55. | |
a democratic path. They chose a different path in terms of their | :44:56. | :44:59. | |
politics and outlook from me and our colleagues, but it was a democratic | :45:00. | :45:02. | |
path, and they deserve praise and honour for that. And sometimes it is | :45:03. | :45:13. | |
easily forgotten. Madame Deputy Speaker, we have been here before in | :45:14. | :45:16. | |
terms of emergency legislation. Not so long ago we had the emergency | :45:17. | :45:22. | |
legislation to get the issue of welfare reform sorted out in | :45:23. | :45:26. | |
Northern Ireland. Another crisis, which led to intensive talks and | :45:27. | :45:29. | |
agreements. Another crisis brought about because, within the Northern | :45:30. | :45:34. | |
Ireland Assembly, some people didn't, for whatever reason, want to | :45:35. | :45:41. | |
take the decision to implement welfare changes which were | :45:42. | :45:46. | |
inevitably the result of changes passed here in Westminster, which we | :45:47. | :45:51. | |
opposed but then we accepted there was a budget set and we have two get | :45:52. | :45:58. | |
on with dealing with the reality. Mitigations were brought in and | :45:59. | :46:01. | |
sadly some of those may now be at risk if we do not get devolution up | :46:02. | :46:08. | |
and running. But Sinn Fein appeared willing, and Warren Willing, to | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
allow this Parliament, the members of this House, whose authority and | :46:13. | :46:19. | |
validity they question and query and van Basten all the time, to do the | :46:20. | :46:24. | |
heavy lifting of actually implementing the hard decisions that | :46:25. | :46:28. | |
needed to be done, and in fact, as I understand it, in 2017, up until the | :46:29. | :46:33. | |
end of this year, Westminster still has the legal authority as Emma the | :46:34. | :46:38. | |
sunset clause has not yet kicked in. And there isn't a word about it as | :46:39. | :46:44. | |
far as Sinn Fein are concerned. The sovereign Westminster Parliament has | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
full control in that area, and yet we are told that under no | :46:48. | :46:50. | |
circumstances must there be a return to direct rule. There already is, | :46:51. | :46:55. | |
Madame Deputy Speaker, a partial return to direct rule when it comes | :46:56. | :46:59. | |
to welfare reform, and they agreed to it. That's the reality. In terms | :47:00. | :47:07. | |
of our position, let me make it clear we do want devolution restored | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
in Northern Ireland. Those of us who sit in Westminster may have more | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
influence if matters were to be decided here, but let me make it | :47:17. | :47:21. | |
clear, it has far less influence than MLAs of all parties in Stormont | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
would have deciding the affairs of Northern Ireland. And that's what we | :47:26. | :47:33. | |
want to see. Thank you, I am grateful to the right honourable | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
gentleman for allowing me to intervene. I think he makes a very | :47:38. | :47:41. | |
valuable point. As we're heading into this general election campaign, | :47:42. | :47:47. | |
and harsh words will be said against 1-party, against the other, that's | :47:48. | :47:51. | |
what happens, but would the right honourable gentleman just take this | :47:52. | :47:55. | |
opportunity to reassure the people of Northern Ireland that even during | :47:56. | :48:02. | |
the general election campaign, that there will be low-level discussions, | :48:03. | :48:05. | |
perhaps not even low-level discussions, between his party and | :48:06. | :48:08. | |
Sinn Fein, to try and get talks immediately up and going in a | :48:09. | :48:14. | |
positive mood after the general election in June? Madame Deputy | :48:15. | :48:20. | |
Speaker, we have made it clear that we are happy to continue with | :48:21. | :48:23. | |
contacts during the election campaign and I'm sure that there | :48:24. | :48:26. | |
will be such contacts at official and other levels. We have no | :48:27. | :48:31. | |
difficulty in trying to reach out and get agreement on the issues that | :48:32. | :48:36. | |
are outstanding, because we want to make it very clear today in this | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
House that we do not stand in the way of restoration of devolution. | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
Nor do I understand do some other parties in the process. We will | :48:46. | :48:50. | |
reform the executive tomorrow, Monday, Tuesday, any day the | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
Secretary of State chooses to call us, we will go into government. As | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
my right honourable friend said, able shouldn't just take that for | :48:58. | :49:04. | |
granted. People shouldn't just say, that's OK, because given what we | :49:05. | :49:07. | |
have come through as a community and as political representatives | :49:08. | :49:10. | |
representing people who have been on the receiving end of IRA bombs and | :49:11. | :49:15. | |
bullets, that is a massive statement that we're making. But we're | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
prepared and willing to do that, because for some of the reasons that | :49:20. | :49:23. | |
the member for South Belfast stated, he mentioned education and the | :49:24. | :49:30. | |
levels of underachievement in areas of Belfast and many other parts of | :49:31. | :49:34. | |
the province as well, this is a critical issue, and there were steps | :49:35. | :49:39. | |
being taken in the Assembly by the minister for education, not just our | :49:40. | :49:42. | |
minister but reveals ministers as well, to try to address some of | :49:43. | :49:46. | |
these issues. And I wish that that work could continue, because it's | :49:47. | :49:50. | |
better that local ministers who have an understanding and a feel for | :49:51. | :49:55. | |
these issues, and know what will work and what won't will drive these | :49:56. | :49:58. | |
policies, to people on the ground. In terms of the voluntary and | :49:59. | :50:09. | |
community sector, again, we have common ground in that people need | :50:10. | :50:15. | |
certainty on budgets and do not know what is quite happen. Arlene Foster | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
and myself met with the business community across the board. Their | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
message was they wanted devolution up and running. We agree with them | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
on that. We will work to do that. The honourable member for | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
Strangford, in his speech, mentioned some of the achievements of | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
devolution. It is easy to forget sometimes, in the general view that | :50:37. | :50:42. | |
devolution never did anything for us, local government in Northern | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
Ireland never achieved anything. Leaving aside the big prize of peace | :50:46. | :50:53. | |
and stability and all the rest of it, one of the things we must do is | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
to reiterate what are the benefits of devolution? It is important those | :50:58. | :51:05. | |
are repeated over and over again. One thing I find slightly reassuring | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
is that in the run up to January, everybody said get rid of Stormont, | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
it is waste of time, nobody wants it. Since it has been down, | :51:15. | :51:18. | |
everybody is now saying make sure you get Stormont up and running. It | :51:19. | :51:22. | |
would be a disaster if it fell. I just wish some of those people would | :51:23. | :51:27. | |
speak up more loudly when difficult decisions are being taken by the | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
Executive and the Assembly at the time, because it is easy to join the | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
general throng and say everything is terrible when tough decisions have | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
to be made. Sinn Fein are now saying, I read an article by Declan | :51:43. | :51:50. | |
Tierney recently, in which he paraded the Conservative government. | :51:51. | :51:54. | |
He said since 2010 has been a change in attitude from British | :51:55. | :51:58. | |
governments, he blamed the DUP. No blame whatsoever attaching to his | :51:59. | :52:05. | |
party. There is a bit of a rewriting of the past gone on, not just the | :52:06. | :52:09. | |
last 30 years of the troubles, but a rewriting of the last seven or eight | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
months. The House does need to be reminded that, up until January, | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
when the late Martin McGuinness resigned and collapsed the Assembly, | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
even though the issues in terms of RHI were being addressed and could | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
be addressed and no reason for the Assembly to be collapsed, we had a | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
joint letter signed by the first and Deputy First Minister on Brexit. A | :52:34. | :52:38. | |
very helpful letter, very positive. There was no issue about special | :52:39. | :52:41. | |
status or about how this was an issue that was going to destroy | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
Northern Ireland's government. We had a draft programme for government | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
agreed. It was out for consultation. The draft programme for government | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
was one which received a great deal of positive reaction from most | :52:55. | :52:59. | |
people across the community. We also had a joint article penned by the | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
late Deputy First Minister and First Minister in the Belfast Telegraph | :53:05. | :53:07. | |
setting out a positive vision for Northern Ireland. There were regular | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
and good meetings happening between Sinn Fein and the government and the | :53:11. | :53:16. | |
DUP and others in relation to legacy issues. All of that was being worked | :53:17. | :53:20. | |
through. Now we are told that this was all a total disaster. Government | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
could not possibly continue in Northern Ireland because of Brexit, | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
because of the legacy issues, because of the Irish language | :53:32. | :53:37. | |
issues. Yet, Sinn Fein went into government in mid-2016, went out on | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
a programme for government draft in which the Irish language wasn't part | :53:41. | :53:44. | |
of it. There was no such demand it then. Suddenly it has become a | :53:45. | :53:50. | |
demand. Then they said it is about respect. But when you think about, | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
some people have talked about insulting language and all the rest | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
of that, I have to remind the House that some of the things being said | :53:58. | :54:02. | |
the Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams referred to Unionist people, I will not use | :54:03. | :54:07. | |
the expletive used. The quality was a means of breaking unionists. How | :54:08. | :54:17. | |
insulting? How awful? We did not work of the government. The | :54:18. | :54:20. | |
Secretary of State recently, in the talks protest -- process, was is | :54:21. | :54:27. | |
disparaged by Gerry Adams. When the honourable member was called | :54:28. | :54:30. | |
insulting language on the radio again the Gerry Adams, we did not | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
work out. When Martina Anderson stood up in the European Parliament | :54:35. | :54:39. | |
and told people in the most revolting language where to put the | :54:40. | :54:46. | |
border, I see the EU McDonald, the deputy leader of Sinn Fein running | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
around today in a T-shirt glorying in that file language. What does | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
that say to Unionists? What does it say to honest, decent people who | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
took a principled position to leave the EU? This is insulting. Michelle | :55:01. | :55:08. | |
O'Neill left the talks to travel down the Coalisland to stand and | :55:09. | :55:17. | |
eulogise IRA murderers. How insulting is that? What I am saying | :55:18. | :55:28. | |
is that there are issues which cut across both communities. The way | :55:29. | :55:33. | |
forward, we can have another election, we are having an election | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
in June, so there will be plenty of elections since last May when we | :55:38. | :55:43. | |
heard the first Assembly election. We can have another Assembly | :55:44. | :55:46. | |
election. That is another three months. Where do we go after that? | :55:47. | :55:53. | |
Direct route? Well, if that is what Sinn Fein are really aiming for, I | :55:54. | :55:57. | |
do not understand the reasons I have outlined why they want to go down | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
that path. The government has made it clear, and I welcome the fact | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
they have said it will be no joint sovereignty. That is against the | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
terms of the Belfast agreement. The very agreement Sinn Fein say they | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
are committed to. The government has made it clear there is snowboarder | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
Paul, again for the reasons set out in the Belfast agreement. They have | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
made it clear the stability of Northern Ireland and its future is a | :56:21. | :56:24. | |
matter for the British government and so it is. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :56:25. | :56:32. | |
the only way forward is to have devolution. A number of the site set | :56:33. | :56:37. | |
at one time in this debate that people have had to make intensely | :56:38. | :56:41. | |
difficult decisions and he referred to the Conservative Party and the | :56:42. | :56:47. | |
Labour Party and I want just to add my personal best wishes to the | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
Shadow spokesperson for Northern Ireland, he is leaving the House at | :56:54. | :56:57. | |
this election. We may disagree on many issues, but I wish personally | :56:58. | :57:01. | |
very well for the future. There are differences between the Conservative | :57:02. | :57:09. | |
Party and Labour, intensely difficult decisions were made by | :57:10. | :57:12. | |
bolstering the peace process. He referred to the parties in the | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
south, referred to the parties in the United States. Could I just add | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
that the parties in Northern Ireland had to make intensely difficult, | :57:22. | :57:26. | |
personally difficult decisions which mark we represent constituents who | :57:27. | :57:32. | |
have been murdered and butchered by terrorists and there are members who | :57:33. | :57:35. | |
represent constituents murdered and butchered by loyalists. We represent | :57:36. | :57:42. | |
and have family members who were murdered. Some of us saw close | :57:43. | :57:47. | |
colleagues done to death in front of us. Some of us were personally | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
attacked and had assassination attempt is made on us. People had | :57:52. | :57:59. | |
their offices bombed, letter bombs sent. We have been three years of | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
this. We have made intensely difficult decisions and despite all | :58:04. | :58:07. | |
of that, we are committed to devolution. When people say we want | :58:08. | :58:14. | |
to throw it all up in the air, we have come too far for that. But we | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
need a partner to work alongside us in government. I have no doubt about | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
the commitment of parties like the SDLP and the Ulster Unionist Party | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
and Alliance to working for the best in Northern Ireland, I begin to | :58:29. | :58:34. | |
worry about a party like Sinn Fein when it continually threatens the | :58:35. | :58:37. | |
institutions every time there is a difficult problem. We have got to | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
have a partner that wants to work in government and recognises the | :58:43. | :58:45. | |
parameters within which we operate. Which is a devolved government, | :58:46. | :58:50. | |
which is part of the United Kingdom, but there are a north-south | :58:51. | :58:54. | |
arrangements, the east-west arrangements. We all play a full | :58:55. | :58:57. | |
part in that. There is guaranteed power-sharing, where rights are | :58:58. | :59:05. | |
protected. We will leave the EU as part of Brexit, but that there will | :59:06. | :59:11. | |
be special arrangements recognising the special circumstances of | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
Northern Ireland across a number of areas, because we share a land | :59:15. | :59:18. | |
frontier, there has to be a different arrangement, of course | :59:19. | :59:20. | |
there has to be. That is what we seek. That is what we seek. Madam | :59:21. | :59:26. | |
Deputy Speaker, I hope in the coming days we can achieve that, but we | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
cannot achieve it on our own and I think the Secretary of State will | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
recognise that in the recent talks at Stormont we have tried to reach | :59:36. | :59:42. | |
out and we will continue to try to solve some of these difficult | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
issues. He is a player in all of this as well because Sinn Fein | :59:48. | :59:50. | |
equally criticised him for not living on the legacy issues as they | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
criticise us. He knows some of the criticism he takes, we take. But | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
what we want to do is to try to find their way through that. We are | :00:00. | :00:05. | |
committed to doing that. After the election we will continue with | :00:06. | :00:09. | |
whatever needs to be done during the period of the election. Madam Deputy | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
Speaker, I welcome the Bill tonight and hope it goes through without any | :00:13. | :00:13. | |
opposition. Goodbye just ask... I want to | :00:14. | :00:36. | |
apologise on behalf of the number of the number. I want to thank | :00:37. | :00:45. | |
everybody who said kind words about me, especially those who did not | :00:46. | :00:54. | |
mean them. I would take long, but I do want to talk about one thing | :00:55. | :00:57. | |
which is stuck with me through my time in This House. Around 2007 the | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
Northern Ireland affairs committee held an investigation into the | :01:06. | :01:14. | |
issues around justice. Eight many mass -- a minibus... There was in | :01:15. | :01:21. | |
modern of a man called Maguire. Because of the boss and we were | :01:22. | :01:26. | |
going to Italy centre with this man was quoted speak to people. He was | :01:27. | :01:31. | |
telling us, that is the hardest thing I have done in my life. That | :01:32. | :01:38. | |
man has told me that he committed to murderers on behalf of the IRA and | :01:39. | :01:41. | |
he is going in there to tell young men and women do not follow my path. | :01:42. | :01:51. | |
He spoke about losing colleagues. It was heartfelt, what he said. We have | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
got to put these things at one side and on issues like this would have | :01:56. | :01:59. | |
got to Act as parliamentarians. That is what we are asking people to do | :02:00. | :02:05. | |
and what has been done today. People have questioned the blockages in | :02:06. | :02:14. | |
Northern Ireland, the reasons we might not be able to live through. | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
They might be right, but that is what myself and the Secretary of | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
State and tinker with. That is what we have to with in terms of moving | :02:22. | :02:24. | |
this forward. I would just reiterate what I have put forward today. I do | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
not believe that only of these issues are unresolvable. On the | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
equalities issue, I believe asking the parties to move and Northern | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom isn't too big a | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
thing for us to ask. I am led to believe there was a majority vote in | :02:47. | :02:52. | |
Stormont in November 20 15th which actually agreed, but was blocked by | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
a petition of concern. On the Irish language, again, what we are asking | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
for is the same as other parts of the UK have. Also, at the same time, | :03:01. | :03:07. | |
recognise the real issues around the heritage of Ulster Scots and put | :03:08. | :03:12. | |
work forward that develops that. On the renewable health initiative, I | :03:13. | :03:20. | |
would say what you said before. Sinn Fein could stop the unreasonable | :03:21. | :03:23. | |
demand that the leader of the DUP should step aside. If they did, that | :03:24. | :03:28. | |
would be a huge step in the right direction. On legacy, despite all | :03:29. | :03:33. | |
the criticism, I made the point clearly, we need a system in place | :03:34. | :03:38. | |
that protects all victims, which treat all victims equally and, as | :03:39. | :03:42. | |
far as we can, brings justice and closure for the families of those | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
victims. I do not believe that any of those are unreasonable requests. | :03:49. | :03:50. | |
We should call the bluff of those trying to block this and tell them | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
to get back to their jobs and do the job they volunteered to do in the | :03:56. | :04:02. | |
first place. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I first of all say what | :04:03. | :04:11. | |
a pleasure it is to follow my friend. As often in these | :04:12. | :04:19. | |
situations, we are pleased to say we find ourselves... The Member For | :04:20. | :04:26. | |
Blaydon, I have had the pleasure of knowing him since 2010. We served | :04:27. | :04:32. | |
the British- Irish Parliamentary Assembly, we time together here and | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
I have always found him, there are many issues on which we do not | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
agree, politics might be different, but he is a good man. A very kind | :04:42. | :04:45. | |
man. I would like to restrict a couple of points he made. The issues | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
around women's rights, it is right for us to stand up and challenge. | :04:50. | :04:57. | |
And I think the issues around LGBT, I think we should respect that it is | :04:58. | :05:05. | |
a devolved matter, and I do respect that. But actually, as an | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
individual, I love forward to attending Belfast Pride in August, | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
and I will stand with the best part of 50,000 people from Northern | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Ireland. And I think that's a significant voice to be very -- to | :05:22. | :05:31. | |
be represented and recognised. I pay tribute to the bipartisan spirit in | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
which we are able to take these steps towards stability and good | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
government in Northern Ireland. This is especially promote and -- | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
especially important, given the general election to come. The bill | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
before the House first proposes to give the space for the executive to | :05:50. | :05:54. | |
form, providing the framework for success in the final phase of talks | :05:55. | :05:59. | |
before us. It takes the modest steps needed to set a regional rate, to | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
provide certainty for ratepayers and future executive like. So, rather | :06:05. | :06:10. | |
than cover that ground again, I would like to respond to some of the | :06:11. | :06:13. | |
specific points raised in the debate. My honourable friend the | :06:14. | :06:20. | |
member for chooks breach was one of many who condemned the terrorist | :06:21. | :06:28. | |
attack, which attempted murder, the placement of a bomb outside a | :06:29. | :06:33. | |
school. There are many depraved acts that have gone on over many years in | :06:34. | :06:38. | |
Northern Ireland, but actually to place a bomb outside a school is | :06:39. | :06:43. | |
probably one of the most despicable things I can think of. And I'm sure | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
the community around that school will be appalled that young people | :06:49. | :06:55. | |
were put in danger by these psychopaths. And every part of our | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
community should stand up and condemn, I'm sure they will do. My | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
right honourable friend also mentioned the fact that those | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
decisions quite rightly should be made in Northern Ireland, not here. | :07:15. | :07:18. | |
He also mentioned quite rightly the impact on businesses caused by this | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
uncertainty which sits over Northern Ireland at the moment. And he gave | :07:22. | :07:29. | |
us his thoughts on direct rule, he doesn't want to direct rule, and he | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
gave us the consequences of direct rule. I just want to reiterate | :07:34. | :07:41. | |
again, we do not want direct rule. The member for Edinburgh gave a very | :07:42. | :07:47. | |
succinct speech, possibly a lesson to others who may have made | :07:48. | :07:52. | |
contributions during the afternoon, and I just want to say thank you for | :07:53. | :08:00. | |
the support. And, as was pointed out she wants to see critical | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
administrations in Northern Ireland taking those decisions, and so do | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
we. The member for North Shropshire has given his apologies, | :08:12. | :08:15. | |
unfortunately he had to go. Paying tribute to the brave police officers | :08:16. | :08:17. | |
of Northern Ireland, and we should never forgot that and I completely | :08:18. | :08:25. | |
agree. And he said there was not a single member of this House who | :08:26. | :08:29. | |
wanted direct rule. And I can tell you, on this side, there is nobody | :08:30. | :08:32. | |
who wants that. We want local politicians who have been given a | :08:33. | :08:37. | |
mandate to take responsibility and deliver an Assembly and executive | :08:38. | :08:42. | |
which can make decisions on behalf of those hard-working people that he | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
talked about. And he said, and quite rightly, there is goodwill there | :08:49. | :08:52. | |
with the people of Northern Ireland to try and make this work. It's just | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
requires the politicians who have been elected to take responsibility. | :08:57. | :09:01. | |
The member for East Antrim condemned the attempted murder of police | :09:02. | :09:08. | |
officers outside the school and I really welcome his support for our | :09:09. | :09:17. | |
police officers. I know he has a long reputation in this area. I | :09:18. | :09:22. | |
welcome his support for the bill. The member for Lagan Valley supports | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
the bill, and I would just like to put on record my gratitude for his | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
support around issues of legacy as well. He has brought several debates | :09:31. | :09:37. | |
forward in recent months, which has given us the opportunity to discuss | :09:38. | :09:40. | |
these really important issues and get a balanced view on, make sure | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
the issue around proportionality is put out there. He asked specifically | :09:45. | :09:55. | |
around welfare. What I would say is that we are at the moment, the | :09:56. | :10:00. | |
function of this bill is to make sure that monies can be sent through | :10:01. | :10:04. | |
to the civil service there. I have the regulations already in place to | :10:05. | :10:09. | |
make the decisions which are part of the agreement. So, the resource is | :10:10. | :10:16. | |
there and it will be for the Home Secretary and his team to make those | :10:17. | :10:20. | |
choices around about money. The member for Foyle regrets the | :10:21. | :10:26. | |
necessity to bring the bill. Again, this is a sentiment that came out | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
several times but he does support the bill and I appreciate that. He | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
wants to get the institutions up and running. The member for Strangford | :10:35. | :10:37. | |
talked about the positive contribution and it was good to see. | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
There were many negative elements to the afternoon, but the fact that he | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
wanted to stand up and talk about the positive. In fact they were so | :10:47. | :10:51. | |
many positive statistics he wanted to give us. But it is so important | :10:52. | :10:57. | |
to reiterate, devolved government has been in place, and services have | :10:58. | :11:03. | |
been delivered as a consequence. And we need to keep reiterating that | :11:04. | :11:07. | |
this is about local people delivering for their communities. | :11:08. | :11:13. | |
The member for Southampton gave a very measured contribution I thought | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
and I really appreciate that. -- for South Antrim. You mentioned the | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
issue of corporation tax and asked whether it was going to be | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
incorporated. This is a devolved matter, but actually, as we have | :11:30. | :11:37. | |
said for some time but will it requires the Assembly and the | :11:38. | :11:39. | |
executive to demonstrate its confidence. So, I agree, we want to | :11:40. | :11:52. | |
see that delivered as well but we need the Assembly in place to be | :11:53. | :11:56. | |
able to put that forward. And I would like to put on record again | :11:57. | :11:59. | |
his support around finding solutions to the issues around legacy, which | :12:00. | :12:05. | |
effect all communities. The member for Belfast South, who is a good | :12:06. | :12:13. | |
friend of mine, who spoke with much one about his friend the member for | :12:14. | :12:18. | |
Blaydon, and it was positive to see that a cup of tea is going to be | :12:19. | :12:25. | |
consumed between himself and the member for Lagan Valley. That's the | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
kind of politics we need to promote in Northern Ireland. And I would | :12:30. | :12:36. | |
also just like to say, the point that he made around the Welsh | :12:37. | :12:42. | |
language. Gaelic is spoken in Scotland, and that treasured | :12:43. | :12:45. | |
language, the Irish language, which nobody should be ashamed of, it is a | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
massive cornerstone of a culture across Ireland, but actually I know | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
many people in Northern Ireland treasure that as well. The member | :12:55. | :13:01. | |
for north Belfast welcomed the bill and laid out very clearly the merits | :13:02. | :13:06. | |
of the democratic path and reiterated his commitment to | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
devolution, which we appreciate. In closing, Madam Speaker, I note that | :13:14. | :13:21. | |
the... Thank you, I am very grateful. There just appears to me | :13:22. | :13:31. | |
to be one key issue which actually the minister, to my disappointment, | :13:32. | :13:35. | |
hasn't addressed yet. That was an issue that was raised by a couple of | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
people who contributed this afternoon, and is about Sinn Fein's | :13:39. | :13:46. | |
allowances when they sit as absentee MPs. Is this government prepared to | :13:47. | :13:52. | |
take a hardline approach, a hard-headed and opera approach | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
towards Sinn Fein, who don't take their seats that are still able to | :13:57. | :14:00. | |
take advantage of a huge amount of public funding from this House for | :14:01. | :14:04. | |
ministerial and secretarial assistance? I sit here as an | :14:05. | :14:11. | |
independent, I don't have a party. I received no allowances in support of | :14:12. | :14:17. | |
additional secretarial or administrative assistants, and I am | :14:18. | :14:22. | |
hugely resentful of the absentee MPs claim to represent constituencies in | :14:23. | :14:26. | |
Northern Ireland and who are able to get thousands of pounds of | :14:27. | :14:34. | |
taxpayers' money. Well, I could give given the diplomatic answer to lots | :14:35. | :14:39. | |
of that, but as you will find on my record, I think my first ever point | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
of order was actually around, why do Sinn Fein get paid and have not come | :14:46. | :14:48. | |
here? I not going to contradict myself on that issue. You know my | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
view on this. Actually it is about making sure we create the right | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
political space in which all parties can find... We're talking about the | :14:58. | :15:00. | |
future of the Assembly. And we can create the right political space in | :15:01. | :15:04. | |
which people can find agreement and come together to offer the | :15:05. | :15:08. | |
leadership which Northern Ireland needs. I could engage in that | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
partisan debate. My comments are already on the record, I won't | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
contradict yourself. -- I won't contradict myself. I sincerely hope | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
that a deal can be reached within these talks. That is an outcome | :15:28. | :15:35. | |
which we will all work towards. But it will be the parties need to take | :15:36. | :15:41. | |
the mantle, deliver inclusion and stable government for the people of | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
Northern Ireland. If they do not, it will be for this or any future | :15:47. | :15:49. | |
government to continue to do what is required to ensure Northern Ireland | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
has the political ability that it needs. This bill will provide a | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
framework... A sentence and a bit to go! I thank the minister for giving | :16:02. | :16:08. | |
way. I have listened very carefully to what he has said and I know his | :16:09. | :16:12. | |
own background as a former serving member of the Armed Forces. I would | :16:13. | :16:18. | |
not want him to underestimate the importance of the Armed Forces | :16:19. | :16:22. | |
covenant as an issue in these negotiations. And it just leaves me | :16:23. | :16:30. | |
a little bit concerned when I hear the spokesman for the opposition and | :16:31. | :16:34. | |
now the minister referring to issues in the negotiations and making no | :16:35. | :16:40. | |
reference to the Armed Forces covenant. And I would not want him | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
to conclude his remarks without making reference to how important | :16:45. | :16:48. | |
that issue is and it's full and fermentation in Northern Ireland and | :16:49. | :16:53. | |
that that is important to getting agreement. Can I thank the | :16:54. | :17:01. | |
honourable gentleman, the right honourable gentleman, for his | :17:02. | :17:06. | |
intervention? I appreciate this is about putting stuff on the record, | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
and think with my own service record, and I can say that my time | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
in Northern Ireland is an issue I have spoken a great deal about, and | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
I will never shy away from wanting to make sure that our armed services | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
and veterans have the best possible... And it is important that | :17:25. | :17:28. | |
we constantly challenge people who have the responsibility to deliver | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
that, and I assure you, as long as I have the opportunity to do so from | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
this position, that will always be one of the things in the forefront | :17:38. | :17:42. | |
of my mind. So, to close, this bill will provide the framework for | :17:43. | :17:48. | |
success and we hope that it will be the catalyst for the resumption of | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
devolved government. And so therefore, Mr Deputy Speaker, with | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
that in mind, I would be grateful if we could proceed with support across | :17:58. | :18:00. | |
the House, and as such, I propose this bill be read a second time. The | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
question is that the bill now be read a second time. The eyes have | :18:07. | :18:14. | |
it. Under the order of the House today, we shall now moved to the | :18:15. | :18:15. | |
committee of the whole house... Order. Northern Ireland Regional | :18:16. | :18:44. | |
Appointments And Regional Rates Bill. The question is that clause | :18:45. | :18:48. | |
one stand part of the bill. I think one stand part of the bill. I think | :18:49. | :19:00. | |
the ayes have it. We now come to any clause to. | :19:01. | :19:11. | |
The ayes have it. We now come to clause three. The question is that | :19:12. | :19:21. | |
clause three stand part of the bill. The ayes have it. The question is | :19:22. | :19:28. | |
that I do report the bill without amendment to the House. The ayes | :19:29. | :19:30. | |
have it then struck order, order. Order. Under the order of the House | :19:31. | :20:14. | |
today, we shall now moved to third reading of the bill. Minister to | :20:15. | :20:23. | |
move bird breeding? I beg to move that the bill be read a third time. | :20:24. | :20:29. | |
I thank all members who have contributed to the day's | :20:30. | :20:35. | |
proceedings. They provided valuable exchanges on this bill. It is made | :20:36. | :20:40. | |
very clear the unequivocal support of this government and this House | :20:41. | :20:45. | |
the devolved government in Northern Ireland. I extend my thanks to Her | :20:46. | :20:52. | |
Majesty's opposition and the SNP and all others for their support for the | :20:53. | :20:56. | |
bill and for agreeing to its faster than usual passage through this | :20:57. | :21:06. | |
House. This bill provides the framework within which the parties | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
may come together, reach agreement and form an executive. If agreement | :21:11. | :21:21. | |
can be reached, they can get on with the resumption of devolved | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
government. This is what the people of Northern Ireland voted for on the | :21:26. | :21:28. | |
2nd of March and must remain the focus. This bill will also provide | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
flexibility for an incoming government to act in the best | :21:33. | :21:35. | |
interests of Northern Ireland and the space for the parties to | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
conclude a deal. I am very much appreciative of the support of the | :21:40. | :21:44. | |
House that this approach. I was grateful also for the support there | :21:45. | :21:49. | |
was for the government taking the exceptional step of this Parliament | :21:50. | :21:53. | |
setting a regional rate for Northern Ireland this year. Very much a step | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
we had hoped to have avoided, this is an essential move for securing | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
greater some financial certainty for individuals and businesses in | :22:09. | :22:11. | |
Northern Ireland and stands alongside the remarks I made about | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
the Budget situation in making clear that this government will always | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
uphold its responsibilities for political stability and good | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
governance in Northern Ireland. In conclusion, I am grateful to all | :22:27. | :22:29. | |
honourable and right honourable members for the support of the | :22:30. | :22:34. | |
passage of this bill. Can I thank my officials for the support they have | :22:35. | :22:38. | |
provided as well as well as the support of the Northern Ireland | :22:39. | :22:40. | |
civil service and my honourable friend? This bill provides this and | :22:41. | :22:48. | |
space deal to be done, which is what business, community groups and | :22:49. | :22:54. | |
individuals want to see. I am sure I speak for the whole of this House | :22:55. | :23:02. | |
when I express my sincere hopes that all sides use the opportunity of | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
this bill to secure the resumption of devolved government in Northern | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
Ireland at the earliest opportunity, so I asked members to support this | :23:11. | :23:15. | |
bill on its third reading. The question is that the bill now be | :23:16. | :23:25. | |
read a third time. I take great pleasure, and I have nothing more to | :23:26. | :23:34. | |
say. The bill has not been amended. We will support it. I did want to | :23:35. | :23:40. | |
wish all the parties the very best in the negotiations and hope an | :23:41. | :23:46. | |
agreement can be reached soon, and that institutions are restored as | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
soon as possible. No further speakers? The question is that the | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
bill now be read a third time. As many as are of the opinion, say | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes habit, the ayes habit. We now | :24:00. | :24:08. | |
come to the next part, which will be moving various motions. I put in | :24:09. | :24:14. | |
motion 's 3-5, minister to move. The question is also as in the order | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
"no".. The ayes have it. The question is this House do now | :24:27. | :24:34. | |
adjourn. Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to be here, to see off | :24:35. | :24:42. | |
another day. Before I begin, I would like to thank the director of monkey | :24:43. | :24:50. | |
world, the International Primate rescue centre in my constituency | :24:51. | :24:54. | |
which assists governments all around the world in stopping the smuggling, | :24:55. | :25:00. | |
abuse or neglect of primates. Her time and input into this debate has | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
been invaluable. It seems barely credible that in this age of | :25:07. | :25:09. | |
Enlightenment animal welfare and animal rights, it is still entirely | :25:10. | :25:16. | |
legal to walk into a pet shop and buy any one of 66 species of monkey | :25:17. | :25:23. | |
as easy as you can buy a goldfish in a plastic bag. These monkeys, all | :25:24. | :25:29. | |
types of marmosets tamarind and squirrel monkey, are snatched away | :25:30. | :25:34. | |
from their families as infants and sold in bird cages for over ?1000 | :25:35. | :25:40. | |
each. There are no licensing demands or special regulations for their | :25:41. | :25:48. | |
care. The pages of loot, for example, full of advertisements for | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
these animals. A brief search in the Internet shows it is awash with | :25:54. | :25:59. | |
monkeys for sale. Supplements for the diet and advice on looking after | :26:00. | :26:07. | |
them. At least half of them are scams, according to Doctor Cronin. | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
Many demand large amounts of money up front for the checks and | :26:14. | :26:17. | |
transportation, all too often for nonexistent monkeys. And while not | :26:18. | :26:24. | |
all breeders are unscrupulous, the public and the primates need to be | :26:25. | :26:28. | |
protected. It is a fact that most buyers are well-meaning, wanting | :26:29. | :26:35. | |
only an entertaining and lovable pet, which can be fed on scraps from | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
the table, but the truth is that almost no domestic coma is equipped | :26:42. | :26:48. | |
to look after primates properly. -- owner. When, months after buying one | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
of these tiny creatures, the call for help because they are lying on | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
the floor of the cage, crying, it is far too late. Most South American | :26:59. | :27:09. | |
monkeys are extremely sensitive to a lack of vitamin D. The lack of | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
sunlight in the British bird cage deprives them of this crucial | :27:17. | :27:21. | |
nutrient, as you would expect. Without it, they can develop | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
Ricketts, virtually overnight. And while, with the right treatment is | :27:27. | :27:31. | |
an expert hands, the Ricketts can be reversed, it causes agonising skill | :27:32. | :27:39. | |
it will damage. Even without Ricketts, a marmoset frequently | :27:40. | :27:47. | |
becomes aggressive or withdrawn as its confinement takes hold. Starved | :27:48. | :27:57. | |
of its natural habitat and unable to mix socially with other monkeys. It | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
is always a pleasure to listen to anything that the honourable | :28:04. | :28:07. | |
gentleman has to say. We agree on two things, we need to be out of | :28:08. | :28:13. | |
Europe, but does he feel in this instance this is one instance where | :28:14. | :28:17. | |
we should follow the lead of 15 other European countries which are | :28:18. | :28:25. | |
banned keeping primates as pets? It is always a pleasure to be in the | :28:26. | :28:28. | |
same place as my honourable friend and we are in the same place on this | :28:29. | :28:32. | |
debate as well. I will come on to that point, if I may, and a possible | :28:33. | :28:37. | |
solution which I know the minister Doctor Cronin has heard. As I was | :28:38. | :28:54. | |
saying, these monkeys are suffering. Compare this or those circumstances | :28:55. | :28:58. | |
in a cage and someone's kitchen to the wild, where marmosets pair bond | :28:59. | :29:05. | |
for life, bring up extended, exuberant families, where every | :29:06. | :29:09. | |
monkey participates in caring for the younger ones. They are never | :29:10. | :29:15. | |
learn and lived for 15 years. Tragically, barely weaned infants | :29:16. | :29:19. | |
are handed over by unscrupulous breeders who rely partly for the | :29:20. | :29:23. | |
profit on the fact that marmosets almost always bet wins after a | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
gestation period about four months. The males are sold on, the females | :29:30. | :29:37. | |
are kept for breeding. They may survive physically, but captivity is | :29:38. | :29:42. | |
nothing short of torture. Remember, these are primates, sharing over 90% | :29:43. | :29:50. | |
of the DNA with the human cousins, us. This rises to approximately | :29:51. | :29:59. | |
98.6% in chimps and Bonner boths. Our closest relatives on the | :30:00. | :30:05. | |
evolutionary tree. In the cases, such treatment would be considered | :30:06. | :30:09. | |
immoral and indeed there are laws to protect them. Almost exactly a year | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
ago, Doctor Cronin, the former Genesis front man and I delivered a | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
petition bearing 110,000 signatures to Downing Street. The UK Primate | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
pet trade petition asked the government to change the law so that | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
all monkeys are guaranteed standard of care. This is already mandatory | :30:35. | :30:44. | |
in zoos and wildlife parks. The minister, who is very kindly | :30:45. | :30:47. | |
attending the debate tonight, said he would put forward a law for a | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
system that would ensure appropriate care. Regrettably since then, we | :30:53. | :30:59. | |
have heard nothing. That is understandable, given the recent | :31:00. | :31:03. | |
political peoples. My colleague and friend has been extremely busy. But | :31:04. | :31:07. | |
the number of primates kept as pets in the UK is thought to be | :31:08. | :31:20. | |
1200-5000. Certainly, Doctor Cronin says she has been an exponential | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
explosion in the British monkey pet trade with ever-growing numbers of | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
monkeys needing rescuing. In the last recent years, monkey world has | :31:30. | :31:37. | |
rescued 160 monkeys. Of these, 53 were rescued since 2012 in an | :31:38. | :31:44. | |
accelerated catastrophe caused mainly by social media. Many rescued | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
primates come promptly sent, well-meaning but inexperienced | :31:53. | :31:54. | |
owners who were duped into thinking they had bought pets that were easy | :31:55. | :32:00. | |
to look after. In a recent police raid, Doctor Cronin was asked to | :32:01. | :32:05. | |
rescue a tiny infant marmoset which was freezing to death in a bird cage | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
in a darkened city flat. It is proved, she says, that the animal | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
welfare act 2006 is not working. The act was passed to cover the care and | :32:18. | :32:22. | |
welfare of all animals, domestic and wild. Under this act, Defra | :32:23. | :32:28. | |
published a code of practice for the welfare of privately kept nonhuman | :32:29. | :32:33. | |
primates in 2010 which explained among other things that it was | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
inappropriate to keep these animals alone in domestic settings for the | :32:38. | :32:42. | |
purposes of companionship or personal interest. In March 2016, | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
Defra announced it planned to review the code of practice and make | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
recommendations for any changes to the code within a year. However, the | :32:51. | :32:58. | |
library has been unable to find any information on the result of this | :32:59. | :33:03. | |
review or any plans or proposals. Doctor Cronin says that, while the | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
animal welfare act can be enforced, it does not enforce the conditions | :33:09. | :33:11. | |
that those primates should be kept in. Instead, it is most often used | :33:12. | :33:23. | |
to prosecute cruelty or neglect cases after the fact. Currently | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
there are five different laws that cover the care of anyone monkey in | :33:27. | :33:34. | |
this country, the zoo licensing act has the strongest laws governing | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
species specific care and applies to any parts which are open to the | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
public. Under this act, 200 government inspectors on constant | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
inspector regimes apply extremely rigorous standards covering animal | :33:48. | :33:54. | |
welfare, hygiene, safety, ethics another. Under British law, primates | :33:55. | :34:02. | |
are divided into two classifications, non-dangerous | :34:03. | :34:04. | |
primates, those that can be bought and sold without checking and | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
regulation, in the 66 species I have talked about. The rest are | :34:10. | :34:15. | |
classified as dangerous, as specified under the dangerous wild | :34:16. | :34:21. | |
animals act 1976, which focuses on protecting the owners not animals | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
and fails to acknowledge any of duty of care for them. Interestingly, | :34:25. | :34:28. | |
smaller monkeys were declassified on the basis of the size and shape of | :34:29. | :34:36. | |
the canine teeth. Third the pet shop licence laws cover pet shops selling | :34:37. | :34:45. | |
primates. Four the performing animals act covers circus animals, | :34:46. | :34:49. | |
and fifth and finally, the scientific procedures act which | :34:50. | :34:54. | |
covers animals in laboratories. Doctor Cronin believes it is not | :34:55. | :34:58. | |
logical that the same monkey could be subject to all the above laws to | :34:59. | :35:02. | |
a greater or lesser degree, particularly as none seem to work | :35:03. | :35:08. | |
properly. For example, she says that monkey world's most chronic problem | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
is with illegal trade in primates as pets in the United Kingdom commerce | :35:14. | :35:14. | |
had we solve this problem? They all advocate an outright ban on | :35:15. | :35:30. | |
the ownership and trading of primates. However, Dr Cronin | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
believes such a move is neither realistic nor necessary. Si suggests | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
that we need a real, practical solution which ensures these small | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
primates are kept appropriately, and I agree with her. Several species | :35:43. | :35:50. | |
needs to be registered under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. | :35:51. | :35:53. | |
Alternatively, a register of primates kept as pets could be | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
lamented, like dangerous dogs, for example. A suggestion made by the | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
minister himself at a meeting with Dr Cronin and me last June. There is | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
also the Zoo Licensing Pact, Which, Hull East By Local Authorities, | :36:08. | :36:17. | |
Could Be Imposed. If Required, The Existing Large National Team Of | :36:18. | :36:22. | |
Professional Zoo Is Could Be Used To Assess Any Application. Extending | :36:23. | :36:29. | |
This Already Existing Standard Of Care To The Pet Trade Will Prevent | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
The Sale Of Individual Monkeys Over-the-counter or over the | :36:35. | :36:39. | |
internet. To those physically do not understand what they are taking on. | :36:40. | :36:45. | |
It seems to Dr Cronin and I and the many others, that the best solution | :36:46. | :36:49. | |
is to require private owners to meet the same standards as those imposed | :36:50. | :36:55. | |
on zoos and game parks. If those standards were applied, as I'm sure | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
we would all agree, there would be no domestic user who could possibly | :37:00. | :37:04. | |
meet those standards, therefore keeping a monkey in 1's home, garage | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
or anywhere else, would be impossible. I have therefore, | :37:10. | :37:17. | |
finally and humbly asked the minister to consider please changing | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
the existing laws, as he suggested last year, to make sure that all | :37:23. | :37:27. | |
primates sold in Britain are properly protected, as they surely | :37:28. | :37:36. | |
deserve to be. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to | :37:37. | :37:40. | |
congratulate my honourable friend the member for South Dorset for | :37:41. | :37:42. | |
securing this debate and the welfare of primates. I know that this is an | :37:43. | :37:47. | |
issue that he has championed for a number of years and I know that | :37:48. | :37:54. | |
Monkey World is located in his constituency. This has been the | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
subject of the number of bills over the years. And I do recall my | :37:59. | :38:07. | |
honourable friend and his constituent, Dr Alison Cronin, the | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
director of Monkey World, met me last year to discuss this topic. And | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
I was very pleased to have the opportunity to visit Wild Futures in | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
Cornwall, who have similar concerns and have also raised this issue. I | :38:20. | :38:24. | |
want to begin by talking about the welfare needs of the primates. I've | :38:25. | :38:32. | |
listened to some of the examples that my honourable friend has given, | :38:33. | :38:36. | |
where primates have been found to be kept in inadequate conditions, and | :38:37. | :38:41. | |
what they can develop as a reaction to that. And this is obviously | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
completely unacceptable, and it is also unacceptable in law. Under the | :38:47. | :38:54. | |
existing law, the Animal Welfare Racked 2006, anyone keeping an | :38:55. | :38:58. | |
animal must ensure that its welfare needs are provided for, in addition | :38:59. | :39:02. | |
to not causing it any unnecessary suffering. This was one of the key | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
developments of the 2006 fact from the animals lacked that had gone | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
before it. This applies to whether you're keeping a mouse, dog all | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
primates. Failure to provide for an animal's welfare is a breach of the | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
Animal Welfare Racked 2006. The Government understands that primates | :39:22. | :39:27. | |
require special requirements, as demonstrated in the statutory code | :39:28. | :39:30. | |
of practice for the welfare of privately kept nonhuman primates, to | :39:31. | :39:37. | |
which my honourable friend referred. This makes clear that primates | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
should not be considered as pets in the accepted sense of the words. | :39:43. | :39:45. | |
They are not a species that can be treated as part of the family, in | :39:46. | :39:51. | |
the way that a dog or cat might. In addition, the code goes on at some | :39:52. | :39:56. | |
length to describe, for instance, in section one, stating, all gregarious | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
social primates species should display physical and vocal and | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
visual displays appropriate to the species. These include but are not | :40:07. | :40:13. | |
limited to social grooming, food sharing, communal resting and | :40:14. | :40:15. | |
interactive play, as appropriate to the species. Primates should be | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
housed in stable groups of sufficient size and composition to | :40:22. | :40:24. | |
allow the full expression of these behaviours. And it goes on to state | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
that social interaction with companions of the same species not | :40:30. | :40:32. | |
only provides essential stimulation and learning opportunities, but but | :40:33. | :40:37. | |
also provides a source of comfort, reassurance and enjoyment, and that | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
removing a primate from its family or social group may have adverse | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
psychological, emotional or physical welfare implications of. Section two | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
of the code goes on to describe again in some depth the environment | :40:53. | :41:00. | |
in which primates should be kept. For instance, it sets out in some | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
detail that in planning a suitable environment, the keeper should | :41:06. | :41:10. | |
provide a suitable location, an appropriate amount of space, an | :41:11. | :41:14. | |
appropriate enclosure with sufficient three-dimensional | :41:15. | :41:16. | |
content, including climbing structures to facilitate species | :41:17. | :41:21. | |
specific behaviour, the correct temperature, humidity, ventilation, | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
noise levels and lighting appropriate feeding sleeping sites, | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
a means of an location for visual welfare assessment, a method of safe | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
capture, handling and isolation of the animals, the prevent escape and | :41:35. | :41:46. | |
entry by all for people. Also a good hygiene to avoid disease | :41:47. | :41:49. | |
transmission, a safe environment for the animals, a good regime of animal | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
enrichment and a wide range of appropriate behaviours. So, Mr | :41:53. | :41:59. | |
Speaker, Mr Deputy Speaker, anyone keeping a prime in -- a primate in | :42:00. | :42:07. | |
solitary conditions or in a small cage of reading it an inappropriate | :42:08. | :42:10. | |
diet would already be breaking the law and could face up to six months | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
in prison. This is a fundamental point of the Animal Welfare Act and | :42:15. | :42:20. | |
is one of the reasons why the animal welfare and veteran reorganisation | :42:21. | :42:22. | |
is widely regarded the actor as being a success. Primates are | :42:23. | :42:27. | |
long-lived, intelligent, socially, let's animals. They engage in | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
imaginative problem-solving, form intricate social relationships and | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
display context patterns of behaviour. Being social is a | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
striking feature of primates and perhaps the most important in terms | :42:39. | :42:43. | |
of meeting their needs. With few exceptions, they live in complex | :42:44. | :42:46. | |
societies that can comprise tens of individual animals. In relation to | :42:47. | :42:52. | |
their total life history, primates have long infant and juvenile phases | :42:53. | :42:56. | |
with social interdependence are caring long after nutritional | :42:57. | :42:59. | |
weaning. The period is crucial for learning about physical and social | :43:00. | :43:03. | |
environment, parenting, survival and reproduction, and all primate | :43:04. | :43:07. | |
species are long-lived and need to be managed in old age. It is | :43:08. | :43:12. | |
therefore... I give way. I am listening very intently, can he just | :43:13. | :43:19. | |
clarify to me that what he's saying is that the law is already | :43:20. | :43:22. | |
sufficient to deal with this problem? If that is the case, why | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
are more and more monkeys being kept in these conditions and why is Dr | :43:27. | :43:29. | |
Cronin having to rescue more and more as the years go by? I was going | :43:30. | :43:34. | |
to come on to that point. But I think there is an issue here around | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
educating people about this code, raising the prominence of the code | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
and making sure that local authorities understand what is | :43:42. | :43:49. | |
required to be unforced. So, it is important for anyone thinking of | :43:50. | :43:51. | |
buying an animal to understand what is involved and the associated costs | :43:52. | :43:58. | |
of looking after that animal. In the case of a primate it is even more | :43:59. | :44:01. | |
important, because very few people in the country possess the necessary | :44:02. | :44:05. | |
skills to look after such animals. I want to turn to the point of | :44:06. | :44:10. | |
irresponsible owners. Defra receives many representations from people | :44:11. | :44:14. | |
about problems associated with the welfare of animals, both exotic or | :44:15. | :44:17. | |
domesticated. Most of these problems can be traced back to a common to | :44:18. | :44:22. | |
nominate a, which is irresponsible ownership. Some animals can also be | :44:23. | :44:25. | |
dangerous to people and to native wildlife, if not kept appropriately. | :44:26. | :44:30. | |
They can also carry diseases transmissible to humans. Want to | :44:31. | :44:38. | |
turn to an issue around advertising, because I do believe this is a key | :44:39. | :44:43. | |
area. And my honourable friend mentioned the way primates are often | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
advertised for sale online. The Pet Advertising Advisory Group, which is | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
a collection of veterinary organisations, has managed to set | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
minimum standards online which covers various advertising | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
organisations. The standards of those subscribing to the code, which | :45:06. | :45:13. | |
include the largest pacified sites dealing with pet sales, does include | :45:14. | :45:17. | |
a complete ban on the advertising of primates. And this is an encouraging | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
development and we would like to see other online providers adopt these | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
minimum standards. My honourable friend mentioned that I did meet him | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
and indeed others to discuss the laws around this issue of keeping | :45:31. | :45:38. | |
primates. And while there is now an issue that my Noble Friend Lord | :45:39. | :45:40. | |
Gardiner has taken responsibility for since last July, I can tell him | :45:41. | :45:46. | |
that one of the things I did do and was keen to deliver, as the minister | :45:47. | :45:53. | |
for companion animals and animal welfare, was to get a review of | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
animal licensing establishments. And in February, Defra published its | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
next steps document, which sets out how we will change the law in | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
relation to licensed animal establishments. I believe that this | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
is going to add additional barriers and safeguards when it comes to the | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
sale of primates. As regards the selling of pet animals, vendors will | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
have to any prospective buyer, and this applies whether it is from a | :46:22. | :46:26. | |
traditional pet shop or a sale online. And I believe this will do a | :46:27. | :46:31. | |
great deal to require in law that the existing code is publicised and | :46:32. | :46:37. | |
given to any prospective buyer. In addition, vendors will in future | :46:38. | :46:41. | |
have to comply with statutory conditions setting minimum welfare | :46:42. | :46:46. | |
standards in line with the Animal Welfare Act 2006. And this is an | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
extra lane of protection for all animals being sold from licensed | :46:51. | :46:53. | |
premises. It also creates further barriers to any trade in primates | :46:54. | :46:58. | |
since it raises the prominence of that code and it means that nobody | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
would be able to sell a primate unless they have been licensed by a | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
local authority and a local authority would not be able to | :47:10. | :47:11. | |
license any such seller unless they complied fully with the code. So, | :47:12. | :47:23. | |
finally, it is important to note as well that in the case of granting | :47:24. | :47:29. | |
licences, it's also the case that a local authority is able to list the | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
types of species which are able to be sold and to preclude people from | :47:35. | :47:39. | |
selling certain species. And it is therefore possible and highly likely | :47:40. | :47:43. | |
that local authorities will take an incredibly tough line on anybody | :47:44. | :47:49. | |
selling primates and the likelihood is that there would only be a tiny | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
number of specialist, skilled collectors who really understand | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
what they're doing who would ever be licensed to do such a thing. | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
Finally, where I concede there is perhaps more work to do, to raise | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
the quality of inspections and the consistency of enforcement, so we | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
will improve the quality of local authority inspections by providing | :48:12. | :48:14. | |
local authority officers with guidance and where necessary | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
additional expertise if they needed, so that we can strengthen the | :48:20. | :48:22. | |
consistency of enforcement. My honourable friend mentioned the | :48:23. | :48:28. | |
Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. The species covered by the actor were | :48:29. | :48:37. | |
last reviewed between 2005 and 2006, with the schedule of animals | :48:38. | :48:39. | |
considered to be dangerous being amended in 2007. Certain animals, | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
including a number of species of smaller primates were removed from | :48:44. | :48:49. | |
the schedule as they were considered to be no more dangerous than | :48:50. | :48:52. | |
domestic cats or dogs. At the time of the review, there were no records | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
of serious incidents involving the primates removed from the list. But | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
it is also important to recognise that the Dangerous Wild Animals Act | :49:03. | :49:05. | |
1976 is as it says on the tin, about regulating the control and the | :49:06. | :49:11. | |
keeping of animals deemed to be wild and dangerous. It is not in itself | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
about animal welfare issues. Now, finally, I want to deal with the Zoo | :49:17. | :49:22. | |
Licensing Pact 1981. I commend the proportionate approach taken by Dr | :49:23. | :49:29. | |
Cronin in coming up with a pragmatic middle solution beyond outwork and | :49:30. | :49:34. | |
is towards strengthening the licensing. As I've explained, we | :49:35. | :49:38. | |
believe that the small changes that we've made to the profile of the | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
primates code within the law, through the changes we intend to | :49:45. | :49:52. | |
make through changes to the Pet Animals Active and others, goes a | :49:53. | :49:56. | |
long way to strengthening that code. When it comes to the Zoo Licensing | :49:57. | :50:06. | |
Pact, this sets standards for zoos. By law, all zoos are required to | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
have a licence, although there are exemptions for some in specific | :50:11. | :50:12. | |
circumstances. The standards also set up houses | :50:13. | :50:29. | |
should meet educational requirements and how public safety should be | :50:30. | :50:33. | |
secured. The individual owners of the keepers of primates, these may | :50:34. | :50:41. | |
not be appropriate. We currently considered therefore the standards | :50:42. | :50:46. | |
set out in the Primate code of practice, providing them with the | :50:47. | :50:51. | |
same level of protection as in zoos. In both cases, the animal welfare | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
act applies and we would expect this to be used in cases of cruelty or | :50:56. | :51:03. | |
Paul welfare. In conclusion, there is considerable debate about how | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
many primates are kept in private ownership in this country. There are | :51:08. | :51:13. | |
estimates that it could be 100000 and Select Committee have previous | :51:14. | :51:17. | |
raised concerns about the figures around. Figures tend to range | :51:18. | :51:24. | |
between estimates of 1200 and 5000, but the really important thing is | :51:25. | :51:28. | |
not so much the numbers but the standard of welfare. That is the | :51:29. | :51:32. | |
overriding factor. There are already laws in this area. We are looking to | :51:33. | :51:37. | |
update and improve these wherever necessary and wherever we can and I | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
do believe we should continue to explore with stakeholders how to | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
reach more owners and potential owners to make them better | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
understand about the importance of Primate welfare. Once again, I would | :51:49. | :51:53. | |
like to commend it honourable friend of securing this debate and commend | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
Doctor Cronin for the approach he has taken. I do hope that he will | :51:59. | :52:12. | |
continue to work with us as we strengthen the prominence and | :52:13. | :52:16. | |
profile of the Primate code within the animal welfare act so that we | :52:17. | :52:19. | |
can tackle some of the problems he has highlighted this evening. The | :52:20. | :52:24. | |
question is that this House to now adjourned. As many as are of the | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Order, | :52:28. | :52:29. | |
order! No one can deny that politicians are | :52:30. | :53:35. | |
pretty important people, as I am sure they would be the first to | :53:36. | :53:39. | |
remind us. After all, it is up to them to make the laws which govern | :53:40. | :53:44. | |
our lives. You and I might call them bigwigs and the origin of this word | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
can be found in Parliament's judicial heritage. Westminster Hall | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
and the Houses of Parliament where the meeting | :53:55. | :53:56. |