24/04/2017 House of Commons


24/04/2017

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including the needs of businesses. Order. Urgent question.

:00:00.:00:18.

To ask the Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs

:00:19.:00:25.

she will make a statement on the publication date of the Government's

:00:26.:00:33.

air-quality strategy. Thank you, Mr Speaker. This Government is

:00:34.:00:37.

committed to making sure ours is the first generation to leave the

:00:38.:00:40.

environment in a better state than we found it. As part of that, I am

:00:41.:00:46.

personally deeply committed to the importance of ensuring clean air. I

:00:47.:00:51.

can tell the House that since 2011, the Government has announced over ?2

:00:52.:00:57.

billion to help bus operators upgrade fleets, support

:00:58.:00:59.

redevelopment and take-up of low emission vehicles, reduce pollution

:01:00.:01:04.

from vehicles such as refuge trucks and fire engines, and to promote the

:01:05.:01:08.

development of clean alternative fuels. In addition, in the Autumn

:01:09.:01:13.

Statement, we announced a further ?290 million to support electric

:01:14.:01:16.

vehicles, low emission buses and taxis and alternative fuels. Our

:01:17.:01:22.

actions have enabled the UK to make significant progress on improving

:01:23.:01:27.

air quality since 2010. We now have lower emissions of the five key

:01:28.:01:31.

pollutants, volatile organic compounds, sulphur dioxide, ammonia

:01:32.:01:37.

particulates and nitrogen oxides. Due to the failure of YouGov vehicle

:01:38.:01:44.

emissions standards to improve air quality, the UK is amongst 17

:01:45.:01:48.

European countries, including France and Germany, who are not yet meeting

:01:49.:01:51.

EU emissions targets for nitrogen dioxide, in parts of some of

:01:52.:01:56.

attendance at these. We're taking strong action to remedy that. My

:01:57.:02:03.

department, since last member, has been working jointly with the

:02:04.:02:07.

Department for Transport to update the Government's National air

:02:08.:02:10.

quality plan for nitrogen dioxide. We have updated the analytical base

:02:11.:02:14.

for the planned to reflect new evidence following the VW scandal

:02:15.:02:19.

and a failure of the year's regulatory regime to deliver the

:02:20.:02:22.

improvements expected on emissions. The plan adapts to these new

:02:23.:02:26.

circumstances by setting out a framework for action. Following

:02:27.:02:32.

long-standing precedent, we have now entered the period of pre-election

:02:33.:02:38.

sensitivity that precedes elections. In accordance with the guidance

:02:39.:02:43.

covering both the local and general elections, the propriety and ethics

:02:44.:02:46.

team in Cabinet Office have told us that it would not be appropriate to

:02:47.:02:50.

launch the consultation and publish the air-quality plan during this

:02:51.:02:56.

time. So the Government is therefore replying to be High Court for a

:02:57.:03:01.

short extension of the deadline for publishing the air-quality plan for

:03:02.:03:04.

nitrogen dioxide so that the Government can comply with

:03:05.:03:06.

pre-election propriety rules. The Government is seeking to publish a

:03:07.:03:12.

draft plan by the 30th of June and a final plan by the 15th of September.

:03:13.:03:17.

The application will be considered by the court. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

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Mr Speaker, nearly 40 million people in Britain live in areas with

:03:26.:03:28.

illegal areas of air pollution. 2000 schools and nurseries are close to

:03:29.:03:34.

loads, roads with damaging levels of fumes. Ex-pats estimate that poor

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air quality contributes to 14,000 premature deaths every year. --

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experts. This has now become a public health emergency. What does

:03:52.:03:59.

-- does the Government agree this is a public health emergency? Given

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that she has only known about the High Court deadline for months, why

:04:04.:04:07.

did she request a further delay to the publication on her ear caught a

:04:08.:04:11.

plan at 7pm on Friday night? -- air-quality plan. Would she

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confirmed she had already applied for extension before the election

:04:19.:04:23.

was called? It is unacceptable to hide behind election to hide plans.

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Rules are clear that it is not an excuse to delay talks about public

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health matters. Would she confirmed that the paper is ready for

:04:36.:04:39.

publication? Is she agrees that it is a public emergency, why the

:04:40.:04:43.

delay? Isn't it the case that the Government is doing everything it

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can to avoid scrutiny because it is missing its own commitments, has no

:04:46.:04:49.

strategy and wants to yet again kicked this issue into the long

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grass? How can we trust them to keep their

:04:51.:05:00.

standards when done everything possible to evade scrutiny and have

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had to be dragged through the courts? If the Government fails to

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publish its plan today, then within the first 30 days of a Labour

:05:10.:05:14.

administration, we will. Only a Labour Government legislate for a

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new clean air act setting out how we would tackle air pollution that

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damages the lives of millions while this Conservative Government

:05:23.:05:26.

continues to change leash at its legal responsibilities and puts the

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health of millions at risk. I think right across this House we all agree

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that care quality is a significant concern and I have already set out

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some of the strong action that this Government is taking in spending ?2

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billion since 2011 in trying to improve matters. It is exactly

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right, we do have our draft a multi-plan ready, and she asks why

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do we have a late extension, I can absolutely explain to her that in

:06:03.:06:06.

the course of developing our draft plan, it was very clear that local

:06:07.:06:10.

authorities will have to play a central role in delivering the final

:06:11.:06:15.

air quality plan. Government initially sought to defer

:06:16.:06:17.

publication of the plan and the lord of the consultation on it until

:06:18.:06:21.

after the powder period for local authority elections. So that

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application was lodged, the primers that they general election and a

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further period of powder commenced on the 21st of April. As she will

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know, Government normally seeks to avoid launching consultation

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exercises during purdah period. It is absolutely vital that we get this

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done and it is our intention that we will publish this on the 30th of

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June, which she says within 30 days with a Labour administration they

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would be publishing, that the taxi belay to land the intention of this

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Government. I also met one to make clear we now have entered a period

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of time where we are strongly advised not to be publishing

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consultations and so what we're trying to do is a very short

:07:07.:07:11.

extension, which we do not believe will make a difference to the

:07:12.:07:14.

implementation of our plans, but at the same time we are safeguarding

:07:15.:07:25.

our democracy. I would urge the Secretary of State along with all

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ministers to work on this air quality plan with the greatest

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urgency after the general election, because we have waited a very long

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time for this report. Much of the problems with diesels actually

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started under the last Government, so therefore they do need to clean

:07:42.:07:45.

that up. A scrappage scheme, not only for diesel cars but also for

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buses, taxis and many other public transport in our inner cities is

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absolutely essential to clean up air quality, especially in our inner

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cities. 90, Mr Speaker. He is exactly right. We have been working

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on this plan for several years, on a specific plan, we published a plan,

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a consultation in 2015 for clean air zones, it has been extended

:08:16.:08:21.

difficult that the emissions of diesel vehicles far exceeded what

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was expected and the EU regulatory regime did not show effectively but

:08:26.:08:32.

the real levels of emissions were. This Government pushed for

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improvements to the assessment and we have been planning for this craft

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air quality plan for a considerable length of time and we will be

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publishing it as soon as we can. Thank you to the honourable member

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for securing this urgent question and the Government was like a

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quality strategy. I agree with the concerns. This is not a political

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issue. All our constituents need to be and to see an air quality plan

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based on good scientific evidence to ensure that people no longer have to

:09:03.:09:06.

be toxic air within their communities. The Government have had

:09:07.:09:10.

five months, a five-month window to address this illegal air quality

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strategy will stop does the Secretary of State then agree with

:09:15.:09:17.

me that hiding behind a general election is not an excuse to fail to

:09:18.:09:21.

address this vital public health issue that she has just mentioned,

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and the minister said it is vital to get this legislation through, why

:09:26.:09:35.

the delay? I can only repeat that I absolutely agree with all members,

:09:36.:09:39.

this is a vital issue, we have spent the last five months looking very

:09:40.:09:44.

carefully at the real world as well as the laboratory tests for actual

:09:45.:09:48.

images to make sure that we get the right consultation. We do not expect

:09:49.:09:53.

that any delay due to proprietary rules will lead to a delay in the

:09:54.:09:58.

implementation. We are seeking a very short a later preserve our

:09:59.:10:02.

democracy in accordance with the guidance from Cabinet Office for a

:10:03.:10:07.

brightly and ethics committee. Does she agree there is rising concern,

:10:08.:10:10.

particularly about emissions that can damage health and lungs, and

:10:11.:10:16.

would she make a high priority to limit suit and smoke from public

:10:17.:10:19.

servers vehicles where she has the most influence? Yes, my honourable

:10:20.:10:24.

friend is right to raise that issue. A huge amount of the investment that

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has already come forward from the Government has been in looking at

:10:31.:10:34.

what we can do in retrofitting, buses and taxis, and there are other

:10:35.:10:39.

measures such as limiting medium combustion plant, which I was very

:10:40.:10:43.

proud as energy secretary to put into place, to try to reduce the

:10:44.:10:48.

amount of other emissions. My honourable friend is exactly right,

:10:49.:10:51.

there are a number of different areas of emissions which we need to

:10:52.:10:56.

tackle, this plan deals with an O2 emissions and we will publish it as

:10:57.:11:01.

soon as we can. On the opposition benches, we will monitor carefully

:11:02.:11:06.

whether the pre-election sensitivity applies equally to an announcement

:11:07.:11:08.

on consultations the Government well, as once which will cause

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embarrassment, but, as the Secretary of State, was the UK leaves the EU

:11:14.:11:17.

and the commission are no longer able to levy fines on UK for failing

:11:18.:11:20.

to act with due speed on the premature death of 40,000 people a

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year caused by toxic air, who does the Government expect will be

:11:26.:11:29.

levying fines initiating cases against the Government for a quality

:11:30.:11:36.

beaches? I can agree with the honourable gentleman again that this

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is a significant and serious issue. I find it rather distasteful that he

:11:41.:11:43.

would suggest the only reason we might be motivated as a Government

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to deal with it is because the threat of EU fines. We absolutely to

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deal with the issues to make sure that the air is cleaner for the

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people of our country and to ensure that we are the generation that

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needs are environment and a better state than we found it. Would my

:12:01.:12:06.

right honourable friend agree that it is not just people but sensitive

:12:07.:12:11.

landscapes such as the nationally designated area of outstanding

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natural beauty, such as the children's, that should not only be

:12:17.:12:20.

protected but should be positively recognised for its role in the

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battle against poor air quality? This includes the harnessing, the

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potential of our trees and ancient woodland. I absolutely agree, she

:12:34.:12:40.

always speaks very strongly for the Chilterns as you try to do so, it is

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a beautiful area and equality is vital for humans and our lovely

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landscapes and to the contribution that our trees and peatlands and so

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I can make to that Israel ported. -- is really important. Merrimack my

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constituency is one of the ten cities there are were infected

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with... One of the five cities under the December Government plans to

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introduce clean air zones. Local authority of Southampton has been

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really assiduous in moving forward with those plans. There's been a

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great deal of its own city authority money is the grant money that has

:13:22.:13:24.

been received into forwarding those plans. Is it the advice of the

:13:25.:13:29.

minister that the City Council in Southampton should go easy on its

:13:30.:13:33.

plans, because the Government cannot get its own plans together in the

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wake that they would bring these plans forward? I was in full

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agreement with the honourable gentleman to that last bit. Of

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course not. I must go to pray Southampton bodywork that they have

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done. They've had significant, with the council, sums of Government

:13:51.:13:54.

funding for the clean air programme and they are doing a good job. They

:13:55.:13:59.

should continue. To be clear, clean air zones can be implemented by any

:14:00.:14:03.

local authority has things stand. It should of course be in the interest

:14:04.:14:06.

of all local authorities to be looking at adding whatever they can

:14:07.:14:11.

to improve the quality of care for the local communities. Is at the air

:14:12.:14:19.

quality plan got to be seen wider context of the environment and tax

:14:20.:14:22.

changes, and isn't that the case that the Government is any more

:14:23.:14:24.

difficult position than it would otherwise be because of the legacy

:14:25.:14:30.

of the wrong-headed tax changes made by Labour when in power, which meant

:14:31.:14:34.

that be more than doubled the level of diesel cars and increased the

:14:35.:14:37.

number of diesel buyers to 3 million as a result of their ridiculous tax

:14:38.:14:43.

changes under Gordon Brown? And Dippy one above thread makes a good

:14:44.:14:50.

point and it is interesting that in recent times several of Gordon

:14:51.:14:53.

Brown's and Tony Blair's advisers have Martin said that they were

:14:54.:14:56.

wrong to have encouraged the uptake of diesel vehicles as much as they

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did. Even the current shadow international trade Secretary has

:15:03.:15:05.

admitted there is a slave no decision -- question that the

:15:06.:15:08.

decision they took on diesel was the wrong one. I do think that this

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Government as ever decidedly not a mess that we started that Michael

:15:14.:15:25.

was started by Labour. A major contributory factor to a quality,

:15:26.:15:29.

but in areas like quayside if the Government act on storage. We've

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been promised a Tory policy on this is the biggest funding two years

:15:34.:15:41.

ago. It will be getting? As an energy minister of the past, I can

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tell him that we have always been clear that carbon capture and

:15:46.:15:48.

storage will play a part in our future plans but that doesn't impact

:15:49.:15:51.

on the inner O2 plan that we are talking about today. Secretary of

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State has clearly set out the reasons for the delay. Can I

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encourage her in the intervening time to strengthen our policies that

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will encourage people to get out of their cars altogether, and I can act

:16:07.:16:10.

I encourage you to look at the article in this week was like

:16:11.:16:13.

British medical Journal which clearly sets out the evidence for

:16:14.:16:19.

the benefit of active commuting, particularly by bicycle, and to

:16:20.:16:21.

encourage others to get Britain cycling? She is right to raise this,

:16:22.:16:30.

the Government is a huge supporter of sustainable transport projects.

:16:31.:16:36.

We have invested ?224 million in cycling since 2013, and also ?600

:16:37.:16:44.

million to deliver transport projects across 77 local authorities

:16:45.:16:46.

through the local sustainable transport fund. We do need to do

:16:47.:16:52.

everything we can to protect the quality of our hair in our cities

:16:53.:16:55.

and that includes changing the way people travel. And delighted

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congratulate the envelope member for not call well on his successful

:17:02.:17:05.

completion of the marathon yesterday. Despite that, he has

:17:06.:17:11.

sprung to his feet. Very impressive. The Secretary of State and the

:17:12.:17:16.

minister will be well aware of the challenges facing my constituency,

:17:17.:17:20.

they have really had an air quality assessment and they are developed

:17:21.:17:25.

early stages of having a bypass. I would hope the Secretary of State

:17:26.:17:27.

will support me and the local community and their bid for a new

:17:28.:17:33.

bypass in Camelford. I would love to be able to offer him a new bypass,

:17:34.:17:38.

unfortunately that is outside my powers to do that. I do wish him

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luck with that and also congratulate him to art his amazing achievement

:17:43.:17:51.

yesterday. At the present rate, there will be several more dead

:17:52.:17:56.

people by the time the cheap rubbish is this air quality plan. The whole

:17:57.:18:02.

point of purdah is that you shouldn't make announcements unless

:18:03.:18:07.

they are significant in terms of urgent health issues. Isn't this an

:18:08.:18:13.

urgent health issue? What is she going to say to the families of

:18:14.:18:16.

those seven people who will die before she even publishes reds

:18:17.:18:24.

here's right to say poor air quality is a public health issue, and that

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is why we are taking urgent action and will ensure that a short delay

:18:28.:18:33.

to the timetable will not result in a delay in the implementation of the

:18:34.:18:36.

plan. By doing this, we will tackle this public health issue as quickly

:18:37.:18:41.

as possible without prejudicing our democratic process. Safeguarding

:18:42.:18:47.

public health is one example of a possible exception that like

:18:48.:18:51.

exceptional circumstance that circumstance. But this would

:18:52.:18:55.

generally only apply if there was an unexpected health emergency, such as

:18:56.:18:58.

for example contaminated food that needed to be dealt with is ugly.

:18:59.:19:02.

This doesn't fall within that category of exception. With the

:19:03.:19:08.

Government confirmed that it remains technology neutral as far as dealing

:19:09.:19:12.

with this issue is concerned and that specifically as far as hydrogen

:19:13.:19:16.

is concerned, the Government will do what is necessary to make sure we

:19:17.:19:20.

don't fall behind countries like Germany and California in terms of

:19:21.:19:26.

cleaning up this terrible problem? I can confirm that we are technology

:19:27.:19:30.

neutral. It is a part of our industrial strategy that we are

:19:31.:19:34.

consulting on how to become a world leader in ultralow emission vehicles

:19:35.:19:38.

of all types. There is a very good story to tell. More to be done. But

:19:39.:19:44.

we are making good progress. Air quality standards are regularly

:19:45.:19:50.

breached in my constituency from Chiswick, Brentford and two to

:19:51.:19:55.

hounds were. Do my constituents not deserve better on this issue,

:19:56.:19:58.

especially as the Government wants to push ahead with runway three at

:19:59.:20:03.

Heathrow, which will only make the problem significant it worse?

:20:04.:20:08.

I can say to the honourable lady that I met with the Mayor of London

:20:09.:20:13.

in my first week of office to discuss clean air, because she is

:20:14.:20:17.

right. It is a huge priority in all our cities but particularly in

:20:18.:20:21.

London. There is quite rightly a huge focus on it. I can say that the

:20:22.:20:27.

Mayor is implementing the excellent work on my right honourable friend,

:20:28.:20:31.

the member for Oxbridge, when he was the Mayor of London. That continuity

:20:32.:20:37.

should continue to be a cross-party co-operation to solve what is a very

:20:38.:20:44.

serious issue for all of us. Does my right honourable friend share my

:20:45.:20:48.

sadness at the lack of contrition displayed by the benches opposite,

:20:49.:20:50.

given that the unquestioned adoption of policy in the early Pata last

:20:51.:20:55.

decade resulted in a massive increase in the number of diesel

:20:56.:21:01.

vehicles, making the air in places like Westbury and my constituency

:21:02.:21:08.

considerably more toxic? I completely agree with my

:21:09.:21:13.

honourable friend. Of course, now, there are a number of advisers and

:21:14.:21:18.

indeed serving members of the benches opposite to admit that the

:21:19.:21:21.

decision to promote diesel was not the right decision back in 2000 -

:21:22.:21:28.

2008. That is a great shame, because now, we are trying to do with some

:21:29.:21:34.

of the consequences of that. It is very important that cross-party, we

:21:35.:21:37.

all cooperate with one another to try and make sure we tackle what is

:21:38.:21:44.

a very significant issue. Air pollution contributes to the

:21:45.:21:46.

premature deaths of tens of thousands of people. We all know

:21:47.:21:51.

that. Do I take from her previous ads that she thinks air pollution is

:21:52.:21:55.

only a public health issue and not categorically a public health

:21:56.:22:01.

emergency? I think that cleanly is an absolute priority for this

:22:02.:22:07.

Government. -- clean air. We have been working on our new proposals

:22:08.:22:10.

for the last five months and we're ready to go with our proposals. We

:22:11.:22:14.

are now seeking a very short referral to meet the propriety

:22:15.:22:21.

rules. We do not expect that will delay the fermentation of plans to

:22:22.:22:25.

deal with what is a very significant and urgent concern. I've worn at the

:22:26.:22:34.

air-quality monitor as part of the environmentally select committee's

:22:35.:22:40.

enquiry into are emissions. This should that a bus station in my

:22:41.:22:43.

constituency had pollution as high as in Oxford geek. Does the

:22:44.:22:48.

Secretary of State share my concern that some directly elected Mayor 's

:22:49.:22:51.

will use this as an opportunity to introduce congestion charges on

:22:52.:22:56.

motorists who were told to buy diesel vehicles, not use that money

:22:57.:23:02.

for air-quality, and in addition, take money from Defra for addressing

:23:03.:23:07.

the same problem? What I can say to my honourable friend is that we're

:23:08.:23:13.

been very clear that this Government... We are very conscious

:23:14.:23:18.

of the fact that past governors have encouraged people to buy diesel cars

:23:19.:23:21.

and we need to take that into account when we are looking at what

:23:22.:23:27.

we are doing in the future. Mr Speaker, can I, in a possible way,

:23:28.:23:32.

put the Secretary of State right on this? She has had to be dragged to

:23:33.:23:38.

the House to make this statement. She has put off major decisions

:23:39.:23:41.

across the future of our department on all those important issues. Can I

:23:42.:23:44.

put the record straight just the fact that my constituents will not

:23:45.:23:48.

understand, when children are being poisoned now, when pregnant women

:23:49.:23:52.

are being poisoned now, pedestrians and cyclists are being poisoned, and

:23:53.:24:00.

she is bringing some obscure mention to stop us doing something about it?

:24:01.:24:03.

Can I remind her that it is two years since the Volkswagen scandal

:24:04.:24:08.

broke and she has had two years and done nothing? Well, in truth, what

:24:09.:24:16.

this Government did was to lead the UN sorting out the emissions

:24:17.:24:20.

calculation is to make sure that they were accurate. After years ago,

:24:21.:24:29.

the E's assessment and the VW cheating and wrong emissions

:24:30.:24:33.

assessment were just that, wrong. -- EU's. We have press for better

:24:34.:24:39.

assessments and have worked extremely hard to get plans ready.

:24:40.:24:44.

This is a very short the federal to deal with propriety rules. -- the.

:24:45.:24:51.

We will be pushing a plans as soon as possible after the election and

:24:52.:24:54.

we do not believe there will be a delay in implementation, which will

:24:55.:24:57.

be in the shortest time possible. It is a very important issue. You will

:24:58.:25:03.

want to know, Mr Speaker, that on Friday, I launched the new

:25:04.:25:09.

double-decker fleet for the X three service which runs from Salisbury to

:25:10.:25:16.

Bournemouth via God 's own town of Ringwood and Fordingbridge.

:25:17.:25:23.

Combining convenience and comfort with lower emissions than the

:25:24.:25:26.

Longmoor that I push round my garden on Saturday evening. If... If she

:25:27.:25:40.

wants to break the unrelieved tedium of which she has spoken in the next

:25:41.:25:45.

few weeks, can I recommend she joins me breathing deeply the fresh air of

:25:46.:25:55.

Avon Valley in the XP service. -- X3.

:25:56.:26:01.

It is always interesting to hear of the right honourable gentleman's

:26:02.:26:06.

activities and despite his knighthood, he remains a man of the

:26:07.:26:11.

people. I am saddened that we do not have photographs of him pushing his

:26:12.:26:15.

lawn mower around but I suspect it is a matter of time! I hope he has

:26:16.:26:20.

an electric lawn mower to go with his electric buses. In the Autumn

:26:21.:26:29.

Statement, there was ?150 million in support of low emissions buses and

:26:30.:26:36.

taxis which ensures that wherever I go in the country, I will be able to

:26:37.:26:40.

breathe deeply and enjoy the non-fumes from the new, low emission

:26:41.:26:46.

vehicles. Incredibly important and it is this Government that is taking

:26:47.:26:51.

the action on it. The Secretary of State might have

:26:52.:27:03.

her Government is sitting on its hands well be Mayor of London is

:27:04.:27:08.

taking action. But she admit that this is the biggest crisis of our

:27:09.:27:12.

time, and now she diverse one of its worst decisions in Government,

:27:13.:27:17.

building the thought runway on Heathrow? He is wrong to say this

:27:18.:27:22.

Government is not taken action. I have given Kim as examples of where

:27:23.:27:25.

we have taken action. We have recently issued over ?3.5 million of

:27:26.:27:29.

plans to particular councils and projects. This Government is the one

:27:30.:27:33.

that is taking action. As I have made clear, we have seen reductions,

:27:34.:27:37.

significant reductions in recent years. In answer to his point about

:27:38.:27:42.

expanding at Heathrow, that will take place, only provided the

:27:43.:27:48.

air-quality can be insured. Those plans have not yet come forward.

:27:49.:27:51.

Well, those plans have not come forward yet. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:27:52.:27:59.

With the Secretary of State agree that pollution is a serious problem,

:28:00.:28:03.

but for the Mayor of London to seek to demonise the drivers of diesel

:28:04.:28:06.

cars and indeed use pollution concerns as a smoke screen through

:28:07.:28:12.

which to seek to flee is for more tax, is not the answer. Particularly

:28:13.:28:15.

as figures show that diesel cars 10% of the problem. The Mayor should be

:28:16.:28:20.

dealing with 100% of the problem, not just 10%.

:28:21.:28:25.

He is exactly right that all councils that have the air-quality

:28:26.:28:30.

problems will need to deal with them, dealing with one of 2% of the

:28:31.:28:35.

problem. All I can reiterate is as the premise of said. A number of

:28:36.:28:38.

people were encouraged to buy diesel cars by the last Labour Government

:28:39.:28:41.

and we want to take the needs into account so we do not end up

:28:42.:28:44.

penalising people for decisions that they took in good faith. Latest

:28:45.:28:55.

figures show that new cars are failing to filter it polluted air.

:28:56.:28:59.

And the air inside cars is up to 10,000 times more toxic than on

:29:00.:29:04.

footpaths. The ventilation in cars is not working correctly either. You

:29:05.:29:07.

have given us a timescale for when this process will take place and the

:29:08.:29:11.

comeback. Can we have an idea when the legislation will come to this

:29:12.:29:16.

House for endorsement? Well, the timetable that we have set out to

:29:17.:29:28.

account for this is the will publish our plans by the 30th of June and a

:29:29.:29:32.

final plan by the 15th of September. And then legislation will come into

:29:33.:29:35.

place as soon as possible after that. But the workable need to be

:29:36.:29:39.

done to come into compliance with that plan will need to start

:29:40.:29:45.

straightaway. Good choice, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, electric

:29:46.:29:54.

vehicles will reduce emissions in our city centres and improve our bin

:29:55.:30:02.

air-quality. However, without support for renewables, any

:30:03.:30:03.

air-quality plan is simply shifting pollution from urban to rural areas

:30:04.:30:09.

when his electric vehicles need to charge and therefore plugged into

:30:10.:30:13.

the grid. With the Secretary of State agree that support for

:30:14.:30:17.

renewables is key when we consider the future electric vehicles, and

:30:18.:30:24.

they should be included in any air-quality plan. Yes, I am sure she

:30:25.:30:29.

would agree with me that this Government has done more to support

:30:30.:30:32.

renewables than most others. We have a very good track record in boosting

:30:33.:30:40.

renewable electricity generation. I can certainly tell her that we want

:30:41.:30:43.

and expect to see the majority of the judging taking place at home at

:30:44.:30:47.

night after the peak in electricity demand. Only charging should be

:30:48.:30:50.

supported by workplace recharging for commuters and sweets, in

:30:51.:30:58.

infrastructure areas where it will be most used. She will also be

:30:59.:31:02.

delighted that only 2016 Autumn Statement, the Chancellor a further

:31:03.:31:08.

to ?290 million to support electric vehicles, low emission vehicles and

:31:09.:31:14.

alternative fuels. Glasgow is still unfortunately

:31:15.:31:19.

something of an air pollution Hot Spot. In Biles Road in my

:31:20.:31:26.

constituency, because an area that is particularly affected. -- Byres

:31:27.:31:36.

Road. Will she also welcomed the action of local campaign groups in

:31:37.:31:44.

raising awareness and encouraging people to date local action to

:31:45.:31:49.

improve air quality in their areas? I am always delighted to welcome the

:31:50.:31:52.

actions of local voluntary bodies to try and change the way that people

:31:53.:31:57.

travel and encourage the take-up of good, healthy cycling and all the

:31:58.:32:00.

rest of it. Why not walking as well, when you can? But recognising that

:32:01.:32:04.

air-quality is often the result of people needing to use their own

:32:05.:32:10.

vehicles and fans etc. Of course, he will be aware that the actual policy

:32:11.:32:15.

on air quality is a devolved matter. So the plan that we have is a shared

:32:16.:32:20.

plan between all of the four nations of the United Kingdom, so we will be

:32:21.:32:26.

publishing that as soon as we can. Yes. Point of order, Fiona

:32:27.:32:33.

McTaggart. You will be aware that I requested

:32:34.:32:48.

an urgent question on an issue to do -- that was raised in my surgery

:32:49.:32:51.

last week. I later discovered that this was the practice for a number

:32:52.:32:58.

of Government hotlines. These mechanisms which enable MPs and, as

:32:59.:33:01.

you know, we're Members of Parliament until next Tuesday, which

:33:02.:33:05.

enable them to get justice for their constituents. Following that

:33:06.:33:10.

request, my office got a telephone call from the Cabinet Office saying,

:33:11.:33:14.

please withdraw it. We don't believe what to answer this. And I did not

:33:15.:33:22.

exceed two that request. -- and I did not agree to that request. And

:33:23.:33:29.

then what happened? Hotlines reopened. I understand why you do

:33:30.:33:35.

not want me to ask the question, but can I ask for an assurance, as a

:33:36.:33:40.

champion of a backbencher, to make sure and use your best efforts to

:33:41.:33:43.

make sure the original plans to cut off this service to Members of

:33:44.:33:48.

Parliament, to a call last week, does not occur until after this

:33:49.:33:56.

Parliament is complete? I am grateful to the honourable

:33:57.:34:00.

lady. The leader of the houses in his place, and notwithstanding the

:34:01.:34:02.

rating remarks the honourable lady has made about the Government, it

:34:03.:34:12.

may the wish of the Leader of the House to clarify the matter as he

:34:13.:34:15.

sees fit. I will say only that I always do my best for Mac...

:34:16.:34:20.

Backbenchers. As you will lady has announced intention to leave the

:34:21.:34:23.

House, perhaps I can wish a great good fortune, health and happiness

:34:24.:34:28.

in all she goes on to do. I'm very conscious that she and I entered the

:34:29.:34:31.

House together 20 years ago and we have come to know each other well

:34:32.:34:36.

over the last two decades. As I say, I say with feeling, best wishes and

:34:37.:34:41.

good luck. The Leader of the House. Mr Speaker, on that point of order,

:34:42.:34:47.

it might be for the convenience of the houses I clarify that the

:34:48.:34:50.

understanding I have from the Cabinet Office is that there were

:34:51.:34:53.

some technical problems with one or two lines at the end of last week.

:34:54.:34:57.

But it was never in certainly is not the intention of the Government that

:34:58.:35:04.

the rules should be applied at this stage. They will come into force as

:35:05.:35:08.

is normal at the dissolution of the House when members seized to have

:35:09.:35:10.

the position of being a Member of Parliament.

:35:11.:35:16.

Point of order. Further to the previous point of order, my office

:35:17.:35:22.

this morning contacted UK Visa and immigration are only to be told we

:35:23.:35:25.

are in purdah and they would not halt to them even with ongoing

:35:26.:35:30.

cases. There is really an inconsistency of advice going on. I

:35:31.:35:34.

wonder if maybe the Leader of the House could respond to the further

:35:35.:35:39.

point of order. The position is exactly as I have just said in

:35:40.:35:43.

response to the point made by Honda lady, member for Slough. I hope that

:35:44.:35:48.

will prove to be adequate in the coming days. I'm grateful to the

:35:49.:35:52.

leader and has for what he has just said and I think the honourable

:35:53.:35:56.

lady. If you are no further point of order, we shall know proceeds to the

:35:57.:36:06.

business of the House, motion folly 24th, 25, 26 and 20 of April. The

:36:07.:36:16.

minister to move? I beg to move the motion that appears on the paper in

:36:17.:36:19.

my name. The purpose of this motion is to allow for the orderly

:36:20.:36:22.

conclusion of the business currently before the House before the House is

:36:23.:36:27.

complete. Provisions are being made for the convenience of the House so

:36:28.:36:32.

began bring proceedings to our business face-lift and orderly

:36:33.:36:35.

conclusion. The business of the House motion by a 24, 20 fifth, 26

:36:36.:36:44.

7th of April as on the paper. Can affect the Leader of the House for

:36:45.:36:48.

bringing this to the House and volley helpful explanatory note,

:36:49.:36:50.

which act the rise to the pages which is an event of this? I would

:36:51.:36:55.

also like to thank the staff or the expeditions wave which they are

:36:56.:36:57.

dealing with the future that is given in the forthcoming general

:36:58.:37:02.

election. I don't think there is any doubt like there is a further

:37:03.:37:08.

contributor. I would simply like to add to the remarks made by the

:37:09.:37:12.

Leader of the House and to thank him for bringing this urgent business to

:37:13.:37:16.

the House and the rest assure that people scrutinised everything as in

:37:17.:37:22.

our normal fashion. And the question is as on the order paper. At the

:37:23.:37:31.

ayes have it. The court although busy to read the orders of the day.

:37:32.:37:38.

Northern Ireland, Minnesota appointments. Second reading.

:37:39.:37:41.

Northern Ireland (Ministerial Appointments and Regional Rates)

:37:42.:37:47.

Bill. The second reading of the Bill, I call the Secretary of State

:37:48.:37:53.

for Northern Ireland. Thank you, Mr Speaker and I beg to move that this

:37:54.:37:56.

Bill be now read a second time. Before I move forward with this

:37:57.:38:02.

business, I would like to take this opportunity to pay tribute to those

:38:03.:38:07.

in the Police Service of Northern Ireland and other emergency

:38:08.:38:12.

services. Those who spent yesterday keeping people safe from a

:38:13.:38:17.

significant bomb placed by dissident republican terrorists next in a

:38:18.:38:21.

primary school in north Belfast. I am sickened by this incident. It has

:38:22.:38:26.

caused outrage in the unity and far beyond. It is clear that the

:38:27.:38:31.

consequences could have been utterly devastating. Potentially to put

:38:32.:38:37.

children, the wider community and police officers in danger shows a

:38:38.:38:42.

wanton disregard for life. This shows these terrors for who and what

:38:43.:38:47.

they really are. It is a potent reminder that they have nothing to

:38:48.:38:56.

offer. I will give way. Will he also except that attempts by the BBC this

:38:57.:39:02.

morning to try and somehow justify what the terrace did at the weekend

:39:03.:39:09.

on the basis that there had been no political progress shows the kind of

:39:10.:39:13.

by now reporting that we get from the BBC, and is not worthy of a body

:39:14.:39:21.

which is funded from public funds? The honourable gentleman has made

:39:22.:39:24.

his point in his own way, all I would say is that this was an

:39:25.:39:30.

appalling incident for which there is no justification whatsoever. I

:39:31.:39:37.

think the whole House would wish to pay tribute to all of those agencies

:39:38.:39:43.

who do such an incredible job in seeking to provide security for

:39:44.:39:46.

Northern Ireland. The rest they often put themselves under as a

:39:47.:39:51.

consequence of that and the incredible contribution that they

:39:52.:39:59.

make. Very briefly. With the Secretary of State agree with me

:40:00.:40:02.

that it is not enough for political parties and individuals to say they

:40:03.:40:09.

supported the rule of law? It surely is incumbent upon all of us to

:40:10.:40:12.

support the individual officers who come from right across the community

:40:13.:40:18.

to serve all of the committee and that we, all of us should be giving

:40:19.:40:24.

them wholehearted support. Device honourable gentleman I think has

:40:25.:40:27.

made a powerful and important point about the incredible job that they

:40:28.:40:33.

do. The contribution that they make and what that means for them in many

:40:34.:40:40.

cases. I have a huge amount of respect for their professionalism,

:40:41.:40:44.

but just that personal dedication that they bring, and I'm sure the

:40:45.:40:47.

whole House will wish to underline that message of support to the

:40:48.:40:51.

incredible job that they do. Moving to the Bill before the House, I've

:40:52.:40:56.

updated the House twice on the political situation in Northern

:40:57.:40:59.

Ireland in recent weeks and honourable statements on the 20th of

:41:00.:41:03.

March and May written ministerial statement of last week, on both

:41:04.:41:06.

occasions I set out what I would seek to bring forward legislation

:41:07.:41:11.

with two aims in mind. To provide the legal basis for an executive to

:41:12.:41:15.

form and is at a regional rate to enable that importance source of

:41:16.:41:20.

revenue to be collected. As we approached this final week of this

:41:21.:41:23.

Parliament, I believe that now is the right time to deal with both of

:41:24.:41:27.

these matters to provide greater certainty for the people of Northern

:41:28.:41:30.

Ireland and to provide the opportunity for the parties to come

:41:31.:41:35.

together to secure the resumption of devolved Government. The background

:41:36.:41:38.

leading up to the Bill today will be familiar to many in this House, Mr

:41:39.:41:43.

Speaker. The collapse of the US executive in January placed a duty

:41:44.:41:47.

on me to set a date for further election. I did so in January with

:41:48.:41:50.

the election held itself on the 2nd of March. Since then the UK

:41:51.:41:54.

Government has been engaged in parts with the political parties and, as

:41:55.:41:57.

appropriate, the Irish Government in accordance with the well-established

:41:58.:42:02.

three stranded approach. The Stockton had one clear purpose, to

:42:03.:42:05.

be established an increase of devolved administration in a line

:42:06.:42:11.

with the 1998 Belfast agreement and its successors. Progress was made on

:42:12.:42:15.

several fronts during that preys on the formation of an executive,

:42:16.:42:17.

including the budget and programme for Government. There was progress

:42:18.:42:22.

in terms of legacy. Constructive discussions took place with all the

:42:23.:42:25.

parties on the detail of the legacy is that uses set out in the Stormont

:42:26.:42:30.

House agreement and on the need to reform legacy inquest. No one will

:42:31.:42:33.

underestimate the challenge in addressing the legacy of the past, I

:42:34.:42:37.

do believe that the proposals are now sufficiently developed that the

:42:38.:42:48.

next step should be to publish proposals for consultation. That way

:42:49.:42:51.

we can listen to the views of victims and survivors and also all

:42:52.:42:53.

those who will be most affected by the proposed new institutions.

:42:54.:42:55.

However, despite the progress that was made, there remains a graphite

:42:56.:42:58.

number of outstanding there is a lack of agreement between the

:42:59.:43:02.

parties and it was clear that a period of reflection was necessary

:43:03.:43:06.

to give the impetus for discussions to conclude positively. It was

:43:07.:43:10.

fitting that in mind, that total cost of a stir and since then

:43:11.:43:16.

meetings have continued between the parties. The restoration of devolved

:43:17.:43:22.

Government remains achievable. It remains the absolute priority. This

:43:23.:43:26.

will require more time and more focused engagement by the parties on

:43:27.:43:31.

the critical issues that remain. Holding on the discussions over the

:43:32.:43:36.

course of the past seven weeks. The Bill before this House today would

:43:37.:43:40.

provide the space and the opportunities for the parties to do

:43:41.:43:44.

just that. We will remove the present legal barriers so that the

:43:45.:43:50.

assembly can meet at ten executive can be formed at any point from

:43:51.:43:56.

Royal assent to the 29th of June. Three weeks after the general

:43:57.:43:59.

election. We recognise that there will be focused on the general

:44:00.:44:03.

election, that is why the Bill provides parties with the scope and

:44:04.:44:07.

space to continue discussions to resolve the outstanding issues are

:44:08.:44:11.

providing a period of reflection for the new Government in a deal still

:44:12.:44:16.

does not prove possible. That said, it remains highly desirable by the

:44:17.:44:22.

parties to continue to work to make progress quickly for the reasons

:44:23.:44:26.

I've set out. This Bill does not preclude the formation of an

:44:27.:44:29.

executive sooner if the parties wish for that to happen. That, Mr

:44:30.:44:36.

Speaker, is an important point. In passing this Bill, we make clear

:44:37.:44:39.

that the responsibility lies with the parties to come together and

:44:40.:44:44.

make progress. As I have indicated, I strongly believe that that can

:44:45.:44:48.

still happen. We have removed the legal barrier to progress, enabling

:44:49.:44:54.

executive to form without the need for a further assembly election. If

:44:55.:44:58.

the parties have the will to make progress between now and the end of

:44:59.:45:02.

June, therefore, the platform is in place for them to do just that. We

:45:03.:45:09.

should not lose sight of the benefits of an agreement in the

:45:10.:45:13.

meantime would have for the people of Northern Ireland. I'm sure that

:45:14.:45:19.

will be the hope of those voters who gave the parties a mandate on the

:45:20.:45:26.

2nd of March. I would like to pay tribute to the opposition for their

:45:27.:45:30.

constructive, positive engagement in the process leading up to the

:45:31.:45:36.

introduction of this Bill. In that regard, I would like to pay

:45:37.:45:40.

particular tribute to the honourable member for Leighton who may be

:45:41.:45:45.

making his final appearance at the dispatch box as Shadow Secretary of

:45:46.:45:49.

State for Northern Ireland. Despite our broader political differences, I

:45:50.:45:52.

would like to thank him for the overall support he and his party

:45:53.:45:57.

have given to me since I became Secretary of State last July.

:45:58.:46:04.

Northern Ireland undoubtedly benefits from the broadly bipartisan

:46:05.:46:07.

approach we take in this House, at whatever the result of the general

:46:08.:46:12.

election, I hope that that will always continue. I do wish the

:46:13.:46:15.

honourable member of the very best for the future. His presence will be

:46:16.:46:21.

missed, I know, by many across this House, who will wish him well with

:46:22.:46:24.

whatever new opportunities and new challenges he takes forward. Moving

:46:25.:46:30.

to the substance of the Bill, as I indicated, clause one would remove

:46:31.:46:35.

the present legal barrier to an executive been able to form to

:46:36.:46:39.

enable any deal reached to be implemented. It would register Datuk

:46:40.:46:45.

retrospectively reset the 14 day clock any Northern Ireland act 1998

:46:46.:46:52.

which had expired and the 27th of March with 108 day period removing

:46:53.:46:56.

the present duty on me to set a date for an election with it rising again

:46:57.:47:03.

at 4pm on the 29th of June if an executive had not been formed by

:47:04.:47:07.

that point. This will provide the space for a Executive form, making

:47:08.:47:13.

clear that the responsibility lies with the parties, indeed that duty

:47:14.:47:17.

to form an Executive to appoint ministers in that process. As

:47:18.:47:22.

necessary, it would provide a period for further talks in the parliament,

:47:23.:47:26.

allowing all sides to take stock and move forward in the deal was not

:47:27.:47:29.

already in place. It would also mean that if a deal is not struck there

:47:30.:47:34.

is a period for the new Government to properly consider the way

:47:35.:47:37.

forward. That is important, Mr Speaker. Or in the absence of a

:47:38.:47:42.

deal, they would be significant decisions to be made in the new

:47:43.:47:46.

parliament to provide a little stability in Northern Ireland.

:47:47.:47:52.

However, it would be for the parties to seize the opportunity, whether in

:47:53.:47:56.

the coming weeks or soon after, to deliver the executive that they have

:47:57.:48:04.

so clear a mandate to secure. I've mentioned previously the two acute

:48:05.:48:08.

issues of financial uncertainty caused by the lack of an Executive.

:48:09.:48:16.

The first is the absence of a 2017 - 2018 original rate which represents

:48:17.:48:20.

more than the 5% of the total revenue available to the Northern

:48:21.:48:24.

Ireland Executive. Normally this would be set by the Department of

:48:25.:48:28.

Finance earlier this year, via an affirmative rates order in the

:48:29.:48:31.

assembly. This would have enabled the bills to be issued in ten

:48:32.:48:36.

instalments, giving certainty to ratepayers and allowing various

:48:37.:48:41.

payment relates to be applied. Time has nearly run out, however, for

:48:42.:48:46.

that course. If no rate is set in the next few days, there will be

:48:47.:48:51.

fewer bills in higher instalments. The longer it takes to set a rate,

:48:52.:48:56.

the worst that situation would become. The hourly outcome, Mr

:48:57.:49:04.

Speaker, with the bad debt, lost revenue, uncertainty and hardship.

:49:05.:49:08.

So while we are clear that this is a devolved matter, we are also clear

:49:09.:49:14.

that only the UK Government can take action to secure the interests of

:49:15.:49:19.

individual businesses and indeed the Executive itself. Clause two of this

:49:20.:49:24.

Bill will address this issue by setting a 2017-2018 regional rate in

:49:25.:49:28.

Northern Ireland. It does so by setting p per lb rates for both

:49:29.:49:33.

domestic and nondomestic properties. These represent a 1.6% inflationary

:49:34.:49:39.

increase, the same approaches were taken by the Executive in setting a

:49:40.:49:43.

rate of the year before. As we make clear in clauses two, four and five,

:49:44.:49:49.

it would not cut across the continuing right of the Executive to

:49:50.:49:54.

set a rate in the usual way. This would be the most limited step

:49:55.:49:58.

available to others, taken at a point beyond which we cannot delay.

:49:59.:50:08.

I will give way. The Secretary of State is very well outlining the

:50:09.:50:11.

business that this House may have to do, do this as it has to do today.

:50:12.:50:18.

But does he accept that we should not be in this place? Because of the

:50:19.:50:23.

arrogance of Sinn Fein who walked away from the Executive and has left

:50:24.:50:26.

Northern Ireland in the predicament that we're today.

:50:27.:50:31.

What I can say is that in the recent election, I think a clear mandate

:50:32.:50:37.

has been set to see the resumption of the devolved Government in

:50:38.:50:42.

Northern Ireland. An inclusive devolved Government. That is where I

:50:43.:50:47.

think the focus needs to be, getting that Executive back into position,

:50:48.:50:51.

dealing with, yes, differences that do exist between the parties in

:50:52.:50:54.

Northern Ireland. But I think the responsibility that we all should

:50:55.:50:58.

feel is that actually seeing an Executive back into position is

:50:59.:51:02.

important, working to serve the best interests and needs of the people of

:51:03.:51:05.

Northern Ireland. That is where I think our absolute and resolute

:51:06.:51:11.

intentions should lie. For completeness, although not covered

:51:12.:51:14.

in the bill, Madam Deputy Speaker, the second financial matter is the

:51:15.:51:20.

lack of 2017, 2018 budget itself. Its absence has meant that since the

:51:21.:51:24.

beginning of this month, civil servants alone have been in charge

:51:25.:51:31.

of allocating cash which is clearly not an acceptable solution for the

:51:32.:51:35.

longer term. Before Easter, I made clear they would provide further

:51:36.:51:39.

assurance in this regard is an Executive was not in place.

:51:40.:51:44.

Consistent with the UK Government's ultimate responsibility for

:51:45.:51:46.

political stability in Northern Ireland. So, I wish to take this

:51:47.:51:50.

opportunity to provide further clarity to people, businesses and

:51:51.:51:54.

public services in Northern Ireland. We very much hope, as I have said,

:51:55.:51:59.

that we will see an Executive up and running as soon as possible. But if

:52:00.:52:06.

that was not proved possible, I want to put on record that this

:52:07.:52:10.

Government would be prepared, as a last resort, to pass an

:52:11.:52:15.

appropriation act in the next session to provide legislative

:52:16.:52:18.

authority for the expenditure of Northern Ireland departments. This

:52:19.:52:22.

is not a step any Government would take lightly. But the size must not

:52:23.:52:27.

forget the duties we must uphold for the people of Northern Ireland. I

:52:28.:52:34.

will give way. He has identified a very important issue, the lack of

:52:35.:52:40.

budget. But would he accept that even with the assurances he has

:52:41.:52:43.

given the House today, there are still tens of thousands of people

:52:44.:52:47.

within the voluntary and community sector who depend upon money from

:52:48.:52:55.

Government departments. Money which they cannot be assured of at this

:52:56.:52:58.

stage. And therefore, they find that their jobs currently are in jeopardy

:52:59.:53:07.

and faced with uncertainty. The longer he leaves this decision, the

:53:08.:53:11.

more he leaves the people in that particular sector of the economy in

:53:12.:53:17.

a horrible position. He makes an honourable point about the voluntary

:53:18.:53:21.

community sector in Northern Ireland. In coming forward with the

:53:22.:53:23.

ministerial statement I have and in what I have said this afternoon, I

:53:24.:53:29.

very much have them at the forefront of my mind. Knowing that some people

:53:30.:53:33.

have been put on protective notice, the impact of uncertainty around

:53:34.:53:37.

whether payments will be continued beyond the current window. I know

:53:38.:53:42.

that assurance has already been given by the civil service and

:53:43.:53:49.

departments in funding for three months. But what further assurance

:53:50.:53:53.

can be given? Therefore, by providing comfort to permanent

:53:54.:53:55.

secretaries through the written statement I have made, I have

:53:56.:54:00.

advised Government departments will be able to extend current letters of

:54:01.:54:04.

comfort, to actually give that greater support and flexibility for

:54:05.:54:09.

the voluntary and community sector. But his broader point that he makes,

:54:10.:54:13.

about the need for greater service, max 70 and a need for the budget to

:54:14.:54:16.

be put into division, is absolutely right. This is not a situation that

:54:17.:54:22.

can continue for much longer. And therefore, it is why I have said

:54:23.:54:29.

what I have about the preparedness of this Government, if re-elected,

:54:30.:54:32.

to make steps to seek an appropriations bill in this House.

:54:33.:54:35.

Should that prove necessary. As I have indicated already, I earnestly

:54:36.:54:40.

hope that it will not prove necessary and that an Executive can

:54:41.:54:43.

and will be formed to actually make those decisions. And in making the

:54:44.:54:50.

statement I have today, it in no way cuts across the ability for an

:54:51.:54:53.

Executive itself to come into position and set a budget in due

:54:54.:54:56.

course. I give way to the honourable gentleman. One of the key points in

:54:57.:55:04.

running the budgets is the flexibility and running those

:55:05.:55:07.

budgets. We know that the civil servants will run departments will

:55:08.:55:12.

wither budgets. But the little bits of flexibility that match when we're

:55:13.:55:18.

being run as politicians to help people... How does the Secretary of

:55:19.:55:21.

State seat in the future if we have not got a functioning Assembly? Will

:55:22.:55:26.

there be some mechanism so that the people on the ground who have lost

:55:27.:55:28.

money and cannot do something can actually listen to someone? This key

:55:29.:55:37.

thing is for an Executive to be formed. That is the way that

:55:38.:55:41.

assurances and direction can be provided. The lack of political

:55:42.:55:44.

direction at the moment is one of the key aspects that underpins the

:55:45.:55:49.

need to see an Executive that needs to see prodigal decision-making

:55:50.:55:51.

being made in Northern Ireland at the earliest opportunity. But as I

:55:52.:55:56.

have indicated to the House this afternoon, it is also the

:55:57.:56:00.

preparedness of the UK Government to take action should that be

:56:01.:56:04.

necessary. And that is that sense of the responsibility that we have is

:56:05.:56:10.

the UK Government to provide the necessary political stability and

:56:11.:56:15.

assurance for the best interests of the people of Northern Ireland. I

:56:16.:56:19.

give way. To be absolutely clear about this, the Secretary of State

:56:20.:56:26.

is stating to the House today that the choice is very clear. It is

:56:27.:56:32.

devolution or direct rule. I putting in place the points made about

:56:33.:56:34.

appropriations, the ground workers being laid for direct rule, if that

:56:35.:56:41.

is required. I do not in anyway way want to prejudge the outcome of the

:56:42.:56:45.

coming weeks. I earnestly hope and believe, and want to see, devolved

:56:46.:56:48.

Government re-established in Northern Ireland. That is what is

:56:49.:56:53.

profoundly in the best interests of Northern Ireland, seeing that local

:56:54.:56:56.

decision-making. I think the strong message should come across this

:56:57.:57:00.

House of wanting to see that into position at the early stop at

:57:01.:57:05.

Trinity. -- earliest possible opportunity. I have been careful in

:57:06.:57:11.

what has said in our position in the budget, giving an assurance today in

:57:12.:57:14.

allowing flexibility for the Northern Ireland Civil Service to

:57:15.:57:16.

use the residual emergency powers that they have to be able to deal

:57:17.:57:21.

with the pressures that they are already experiencing, and to be will

:57:22.:57:26.

to ensure public services will continue to be run in the manner

:57:27.:57:32.

that they are. I have published a written ministerial statement which

:57:33.:57:36.

sets out indicated departmental allocations which reflect the budget

:57:37.:57:39.

priorities and decisions of the last Executive. These provide basis for

:57:40.:57:47.

allocations in the absence of an Executive. It is important to make

:57:48.:57:50.

the point that these are not UK Government numbers but rather

:57:51.:57:54.

reflecting the advice of the head of the Northern Ireland civil service

:57:55.:57:58.

as to his assessment of the position that takes account of the priorities

:57:59.:58:01.

of the political parties prior to the dissolution of the Assembly, as

:58:02.:58:06.

well as for the occasion is he considers are required. -- other

:58:07.:58:15.

allocations. And in relation to the basis of which they want to plan and

:58:16.:58:20.

discharge responsibilities in the meantime. However, we should be

:58:21.:58:25.

clear that these totals would not constrain the future freedom of an

:58:26.:58:29.

incoming Executive to amend spending allocations. Nor the UK Government

:58:30.:58:33.

in situations it might need to reflect upon in terms of the final

:58:34.:58:38.

allocations in the light of circumstances at the appropriate

:58:39.:58:40.

time. But I do underline the position that the bill sets out,

:58:41.:58:45.

that if agreement is not reached by the 29th of June, that in essence

:58:46.:58:51.

the electoral duty would then come back to the Secretary of State in

:58:52.:58:55.

terms of calling an election within a reasonable period of time, but

:58:56.:59:00.

obviously, any incoming Government would need to reflect very carefully

:59:01.:59:03.

on the stability and position in Northern Ireland. As I have

:59:04.:59:07.

indicated, what might be a need to deal with certain financial issues.

:59:08.:59:12.

But we need to be focused and resolutely focused on seeing that we

:59:13.:59:16.

get an Executive into position. That is precisely what this bill will

:59:17.:59:26.

allow for. I will give way. Thank you. I thank my right honourable

:59:27.:59:31.

friend for his statement. Could I ask my right honourable friend if he

:59:32.:59:34.

has seen the slightest indication from Sinn Fein that they might

:59:35.:59:45.

consider being part of an Executive in a very detailed and long

:59:46.:59:48.

negotiations he has no doubt had so far? Yes, I have. That is why I

:59:49.:59:55.

believe that agreement is possible. I believe that the discussions that

:59:56.:59:59.

have taken place over the recent weeks have shown where the space for

:00:00.:00:05.

agreement might live. Where the space for compromise might lie. And

:00:06.:00:08.

that is why it is important that this bill provides that space and

:00:09.:00:13.

opportunity for the parties to be able to find resolution of the

:00:14.:00:17.

outstanding issues. And get back into devolved Government, which is

:00:18.:00:20.

what the people of Northern Ireland voted for. To go back to the point

:00:21.:00:24.

of the budget, the budget does not allocate, for example, to be clear,

:00:25.:00:28.

the resource in capital funding provided the Chancellor's March

:00:29.:00:33.

budget. This funding was not allocated before the dissolution of

:00:34.:00:36.

the last Executive and we believe it is right that funding is available

:00:37.:00:39.

for parties to allocate two father priorities as they deem appropriate.

:00:40.:00:45.

For the detail on these -- other detail on the spending plans will

:00:46.:00:48.

have to be provided through the appropriation act itself. My hope is

:00:49.:00:52.

the act will be when taken for the Northern Ireland Assembly but that

:00:53.:00:57.

relies on the Executive being formed and, as I have indicated, with a

:00:58.:01:01.

focus should live. But if not, as I have said, we would be prepared to

:01:02.:01:04.

legislate to provide certainty in line with our ultimate

:01:05.:01:08.

responsibility. Political this possibility and good governance in

:01:09.:01:13.

Northern Ireland. -- political stability. Can the Secretary of

:01:14.:01:20.

State clarify whether such legislation, in that context, would,

:01:21.:01:23.

in his mind, and meant to direct rule in the sense that we have

:01:24.:01:29.

always known it? Or would it be some sort of downloadable legislative

:01:30.:01:31.

cover for administrative governance, when it comes to budgets? Again, I

:01:32.:01:38.

would not want to prejudge what the situation might be. That will be for

:01:39.:01:43.

an incoming Government. But my point remains that that does not need to

:01:44.:01:48.

be the outcome. The outcome we want to see is an Executive being formed.

:01:49.:01:52.

The outcome you want to see is devolved Government being put into

:01:53.:01:54.

place, making decisions within Northern Ireland for the people of

:01:55.:01:58.

Ireland. That is why I make the point that I do in terms of what

:01:59.:02:03.

this bill provides, how it does give the space to allow that to happen.

:02:04.:02:07.

And that must be the focus of all of us in the time ahead. I believe that

:02:08.:02:12.

in passing this bill, we can provide the scope and space for a deal to be

:02:13.:02:18.

done by the parties. And it will be working intensively with the parties

:02:19.:02:22.

to ensure that that outcome appears in the weeks ahead. Northern Ireland

:02:23.:02:28.

needs to see the restoration of an inclusive devolved Government

:02:29.:02:32.

working in Northern Ireland's best interests. That is what the people

:02:33.:02:35.

of Northern Ireland voted for and that is what will deliver the public

:02:36.:02:39.

services that people rely upon. That is what businesses, community groups

:02:40.:02:43.

and individuals across more violent want to see. -- across Northern

:02:44.:02:51.

Ireland. I commend this bill to the House. The question is, the bill now

:02:52.:02:56.

bear the second time. Mr David Anderson. -- now be read.

:02:57.:03:06.

Thank you very much. Can I start by agreeing totally with the words from

:03:07.:03:13.

the Secretary of State about what happened yesterday. It clearly is

:03:14.:03:16.

not where we need to be in Northern Ireland. It is probably the main

:03:17.:03:20.

reason why we need to get this resolution and get Executive of them

:03:21.:03:23.

running again. I also thank and very kindly for the worse he said about

:03:24.:03:30.

me. I congratulate him on the work he has done and shared with me over

:03:31.:03:33.

the past difficult times to try and find a way forward. This is a debate

:03:34.:03:42.

did not want to be taken because the reality is that this is combined

:03:43.:03:46.

political failure on behalf of all politicians right across these

:03:47.:03:55.

islands. It has led to this sad situation facing us today. Not many

:03:56.:04:01.

years ago, the world looked on with the mature Maze and and admiration

:04:02.:04:06.

when politicians put to one side centuries of animosity and hate to

:04:07.:04:10.

build a new future for the people they serve. -- with amazement. I am

:04:11.:04:20.

mindful of the issues that have caused the current impasse that has

:04:21.:04:28.

brought us here today. Northern Ireland has seen drastic changes in

:04:29.:04:33.

the past few decades. Difficult challenges are still to come but the

:04:34.:04:35.

current charges should not be, by any means, insurmountable. Serious

:04:36.:04:43.

matters faced as in 2008 and in 2007, but the repercussions of

:04:44.:04:46.

failure here are equally as serious and dangerous.

:04:47.:04:53.

I believe with goodwill and all size, agreement can be reached but

:04:54.:04:57.

people will have to reach compromise. I also wish to highlight

:04:58.:05:01.

one of the main sticking points but forward Bridges about the quality. I

:05:02.:05:06.

would say to the honourable member who raised the issue before about

:05:07.:05:12.

the intransigent Sinn Fein. None of those are surprised that Sinn Fein.

:05:13.:05:17.

What has surprised me about the position we find ourselves in is how

:05:18.:05:24.

strong these feelings about the present Executive go right across

:05:25.:05:27.

the nationalist community. It isn't just one political party who has

:05:28.:05:32.

real concerns. One issue of concern is the failure to move on equality

:05:33.:05:38.

legislation. The Democratic Unionist Party is proudly a party of June in

:05:39.:05:45.

as and yet they seek to limit the quality and rights to people in

:05:46.:05:48.

Northern Ireland. The access to abortion and the rights of members

:05:49.:05:54.

of the LGBT community that I a real part of the United Kingdom. They

:05:55.:06:00.

widely oppose this Bill it has been extended to the United Kingdom. Why

:06:01.:06:03.

should two people who love each other not be able to show that in a

:06:04.:06:08.

formal marriage ceremony in Northern Ireland as they can in the rest of

:06:09.:06:12.

Great Britain? And why should a woman in Northern Ireland not have

:06:13.:06:15.

the right to choose what she does with her own body? Should these

:06:16.:06:22.

ideas of equality and fairness that fact as cordially idea of identity

:06:23.:06:27.

as core to me as they are Deborah Nelson on these islands. Another

:06:28.:06:32.

sticking point which we are seeing progress on is the issue of the

:06:33.:06:37.

Irish language. Again it is another example of rights that are enjoyed

:06:38.:06:41.

by other people across Great Britain are not available in over the

:06:42.:06:46.

island. This is seen as part of the fact that in Wales and in Scotland

:06:47.:06:53.

that there is legislation that provides protections for their

:06:54.:06:56.

respective indigenous languages. Even in Cornwall, there is counsel

:06:57.:07:03.

for Cornish language strategy. Why does the Northern Irish treaty want

:07:04.:07:13.

to... I will give way. I think before the shadow spokesman

:07:14.:07:16.

pontificates on these issues he should at least try and get his

:07:17.:07:21.

facts right in Northern Ireland, 100s and the ?1 million has already

:07:22.:07:27.

been spent on giving the Irish language community the ability to

:07:28.:07:31.

have their own schools, some schools have been opened at less than 14

:07:32.:07:35.

children. They have street names if they wish to have them. Britain and

:07:36.:07:41.

the Irish. Letter headings and apartments in Irish line which. A

:07:42.:07:46.

whole range of other kinds of issues at rest. If years later talked about

:07:47.:07:51.

the promotion of the Irish language, at least get his vice right before

:07:52.:07:57.

he starts pontificating. I'm more than happy to... He's got more

:07:58.:08:02.

practice at that and I have. The point I'm making is there is a

:08:03.:08:06.

difference in the protections in Northern Ireland and that is what is

:08:07.:08:10.

being asked for by the nationalist community. They do not have the same

:08:11.:08:14.

legislative basis as they do in Wales and Scotland. That is one of

:08:15.:08:19.

the things that politicians in Northern Ireland could put right

:08:20.:08:22.

tomorrow. They could have put it right over the last ten years, they

:08:23.:08:25.

could have put it right since the talks broke down in January. They

:08:26.:08:29.

have chosen so far not to. I will indeed. Thank you, Madam Speaker.

:08:30.:08:38.

The shadow Secretary of State is going through a list of the Sinn

:08:39.:08:43.

Fein demands. I just wish he would come and talk to us from time to

:08:44.:08:47.

time, because we have issues, and one of the issues is the Armed

:08:48.:08:51.

Forces covenant which is implemented in full in every other part of the

:08:52.:08:54.

United Kingdom except for modern Ireland. Where the shadow Secretary

:08:55.:08:58.

of State now join us in demanding that Sinn Fein honour that

:08:59.:09:03.

obligation and agreed to fully implement the Armed Forces covenant

:09:04.:09:13.

in the violent? No I have a lot of respect for him, he says I promoting

:09:14.:09:18.

what Sinn Fein is saying will stop these are the issues that have led

:09:19.:09:20.

to the impasse. They are not just Sinn Fein issues, and it is for this

:09:21.:09:25.

House and the people outside, the rest of Great Britain, who might not

:09:26.:09:28.

have the inside knowledge that the member has that I am raising these

:09:29.:09:32.

issues for. To try and define where problems are and try to point out

:09:33.:09:36.

the magic and negotiate your way out of this if you want, but the point

:09:37.:09:40.

of talking to his body, the net with his leader last week on these very

:09:41.:09:44.

issues and I was very pleased to see that she is prepared to have

:09:45.:09:48.

discussions across the board, so in that example we are trying to work

:09:49.:09:54.

as we always have in a nonpartisan way. On the covenant, please to see

:09:55.:10:02.

my honourable friend the chairman of the Northern Ireland select

:10:03.:10:04.

committee, we work together on the Armed Forces covenant, the report on

:10:05.:10:09.

which we agreed, to call on all parties to do the right thing by the

:10:10.:10:13.

people who have served our country, so I don't take any lessons on the

:10:14.:10:19.

covenant from the member behind me. Other discussions that the party had

:10:20.:10:23.

been having, gleefully can reach the agreement which is beneficial to the

:10:24.:10:26.

Irish language community, but also to the point that has been raised

:10:27.:10:30.

with me by his leader in novel and Islands that what we want is more

:10:31.:10:36.

support for the needs and heritage of the Ulster Scots community. I

:10:37.:10:41.

believe that could be negotiated if people were serious about trying to

:10:42.:10:45.

find a way forward. I understand that some of the reasons why some of

:10:46.:10:50.

the parties in Northern Ireland are against legislating for an act is

:10:51.:10:55.

because it was seen as a side deal that was done by Tony Blair many

:10:56.:10:59.

years ago. That might have right or wrong time, it moved things on, I'm

:11:00.:11:04.

saying now it is another thing that could be done today, a relatively

:11:05.:11:07.

small step in the right direction, to try and resolve the issues that

:11:08.:11:13.

are outstanding. I will give. Does he honestly believe that any of the

:11:14.:11:16.

things that he has read out today from the dispatch box have isolated

:11:17.:11:22.

the breakdown of the Assembly? Does he really in his heart believe any

:11:23.:11:26.

of that? And if he does, he's really saying to this House that he does

:11:27.:11:31.

not believe in devilish and armour because no region of the United

:11:32.:11:35.

Kingdom should have its differences recognised. Revolution has allowed

:11:36.:11:38.

for that. On the basis of devolution, the Honourable member

:11:39.:11:42.

says no, everything should just be the same. As someone who is a

:11:43.:11:50.

passionate supporter, I do not take that glitters is. I believe that we

:11:51.:11:57.

have got a situation that is at breaking point. We need to find a

:11:58.:12:03.

way forward. I spent all my life in negotiating situations in constant

:12:04.:12:05.

revolution as a trade union representative before I came to this

:12:06.:12:10.

House. The truth is we have a situation that should be resolvable,

:12:11.:12:13.

but as long as people are saying they are not prepared to move I've

:12:14.:12:18.

met on both sides, I am pretty come on other things, but let's be

:12:19.:12:23.

prepared to move, will end up with the reality that this House will

:12:24.:12:29.

probably have to take back direct control in Northern Ireland and that

:12:30.:12:33.

way nobody 's's interests. It would not be an interest in revolution or

:12:34.:12:37.

in the interest of people governing themselves. I want to move on to the

:12:38.:12:44.

issue of legacy. One of the biggest issues facing all of ours market has

:12:45.:12:48.

been for many years. Both how we deal with Northern Irish tragic

:12:49.:12:55.

past. The truth is we all us, collectively failed the victims of

:12:56.:12:59.

the Troubles. It only serves to compound are suffering through our

:13:00.:13:06.

lack of action. Regardless of the background or if they have served in

:13:07.:13:09.

uniform, we are depriving them and their families the truth and the

:13:10.:13:14.

closure that many of them want. The truth regardless of how hard it is

:13:15.:13:21.

must be heard. I have heard details of many different cases from

:13:22.:13:25.

families who've lost loved ones. But one in particular stayed with me, a

:13:26.:13:31.

case of Samuel Devaney. I met with his family last year, I was informed

:13:32.:13:38.

then about the death and the details surrounding his death in 1969. I

:13:39.:13:45.

would like a House to bear in mind that that is almost 50 years ago.

:13:46.:13:49.

That family have never had access to the relevant files. Files that are

:13:50.:13:54.

now held by the Metropolitan Police and were due to be released to the

:13:55.:13:59.

National Archives, but yet again they had been reclassified as they

:14:00.:14:04.

had been retained by the police service until at least 2022. That

:14:05.:14:11.

cannot be anything other than a travesty. Think about 1969, a very

:14:12.:14:16.

different world, I was a 15-year-old boy, starting work as a coalminer.

:14:17.:14:21.

England has won the World Cup couple of years before. We had joined the

:14:22.:14:25.

Common market, we met two years away. I thought that we get a cheer.

:14:26.:14:30.

We were two years away from a decimalisation, maybe that's the

:14:31.:14:34.

next campaign began one. Brian Jones were still in the Rolling Stones,

:14:35.:14:38.

Jimi Hendrix, Janis Joplin, they were still alive and making music.

:14:39.:14:49.

During that time, on the 19th of April, Mr Devaney died at the hands

:14:50.:14:54.

of officers from the RUC who would never prosecuted due to lack of

:14:55.:14:57.

evidence. Mr Devaney was seen as one of the first victims of the

:14:58.:15:04.

Troubles, and still today has family pleading for justice. This is as one

:15:05.:15:08.

of the many cases in Northern Ireland where lack of progress in

:15:09.:15:11.

countless Government, both Labour and Conservative, a dereliction of

:15:12.:15:17.

duty in Westminster. I'm not making a special case, other than the fact

:15:18.:15:23.

of how long it has gone on with out closure for his family. It is

:15:24.:15:31.

utterly unacceptable. He is making a very powerful speech that seems to

:15:32.:15:34.

include everything that has ever been committed by every person in

:15:35.:15:38.

Northern Ireland. We do not accept that perhaps today has this

:15:39.:15:41.

parliament comes to a close, and there is a clear financial

:15:42.:15:47.

imperative to see that the Northern Ireland Government is able to

:15:48.:15:49.

continue, certainly through the period of our election when the

:15:50.:15:52.

minister will be somewhat constrained, and certainly through

:15:53.:15:56.

the period of Northern Ireland's Assembly's demolition, when the

:15:57.:15:58.

Government body can chain, would not be helpful perhaps to look

:15:59.:16:03.

positively on how he can assist the Secretary of State, who has made a

:16:04.:16:06.

statesman-like speech, helping to bring people together rather than a

:16:07.:16:11.

device of wine which is more in tune with his party's leadership and with

:16:12.:16:21.

his own spirit. What I'm telling you is these are the realities on the

:16:22.:16:24.

ground. It is right and proper this House, here's what the opticals are,

:16:25.:16:29.

we have thought about these item for item of the last months to try and

:16:30.:16:34.

find your way of resolving them. These are issues, but they are not

:16:35.:16:39.

huge issues. This is not people going to jail as they were 20 years

:16:40.:16:48.

ago, not people being pardoned. This is relatively small issues but

:16:49.:16:52.

genuine ones. We cannot resolve the issue of equalities, or the issue of

:16:53.:17:02.

legacy, though we here for? He talks about Northern Ireland, I would

:17:03.:17:05.

remind him the Northern Irish Government... We will be supporting

:17:06.:17:09.

without a doubt, I have also had discussions with the civil service

:17:10.:17:13.

and I am determined that they are allowed to have the powers they need

:17:14.:17:17.

to carry on supporting the public service of Northern Ireland, because

:17:18.:17:20.

I'm a supporter and that is one of the reasons why am involved in this.

:17:21.:17:26.

I am grateful to him, but given the fact we are trying to achieve some

:17:27.:17:29.

consensus here and talk about these things any serious way, he would no

:17:30.:17:35.

doubt wish to on citing examples on one side when ignores that there are

:17:36.:17:38.

still many families in Northern Ireland who have never had a public

:17:39.:17:44.

enquiry or indeed an explanation from Sinn Fein or the IRA as to what

:17:45.:17:47.

happened in love ones. I think there is only fair that he should now

:17:48.:17:50.

reflect on that perhaps say something about that, too. I'm happy

:17:51.:17:58.

to accept intervention, and I did make the point I only used the case

:17:59.:18:05.

because of how long ago it was. If we cannot resolve matters, just as

:18:06.:18:14.

genuine human beings, forget whatever your party affiliation is,

:18:15.:18:17.

if we cannot say it is not right, that 40 years and something happened

:18:18.:18:23.

at the families should not have the chance to... A report has been done

:18:24.:18:32.

and here's the reason behind it. I give way to the honourable lady. I

:18:33.:18:37.

am grateful for giving way. And sorry I wasn't here for the opening

:18:38.:18:42.

remarks. I was here and I'm to hear his remarks about Mr Devaney and the

:18:43.:18:46.

mention of the Royal Constabulary. My late husband was very proud, an

:18:47.:18:53.

extraordinary men and women who served with courage and made an

:18:54.:18:57.

extraordinary sacrifice, 302 murdered RUC officers, I wonder if

:18:58.:19:01.

the honourable Geoff would like to put on record his gratitude and

:19:02.:19:05.

admiration body RUC during the Troubles. I've fully will do that

:19:06.:19:14.

and intended to do it anyway. I had prepared, I think it will confirm

:19:15.:19:16.

the work we have done together, although we might have a different

:19:17.:19:19.

view on the verge of Ireland, we have worked together had recognised

:19:20.:19:25.

the role they have played. In raising these issues about legacy,

:19:26.:19:29.

it is about as much as getting the truth of people have been unjustly

:19:30.:19:32.

castigated for something that was not their fault, and they had for

:19:33.:19:38.

years when they don't have... If we don't have clarity and we don't have

:19:39.:19:43.

honestly, we will never get there. I will give way. You for giving way.

:19:44.:19:49.

Can I help him with an example following on from the comments of

:19:50.:19:55.

the noble member for northbound? My cousin, Samuel Donaldson, was

:19:56.:19:59.

murdered by the provisional IRA on the 12th of August 19 70. With his

:20:00.:20:05.

colleague cousin Roy Miller. Ever the first two RUC officers to be

:20:06.:20:09.

murdered in the provisional hiring what has been known as the troubles.

:20:10.:20:13.

No one has ever been brought to justice for their killings. The IRA,

:20:14.:20:19.

Sinn Fein have refused to cooperate in providing the information that

:20:20.:20:22.

would enable those responsible to be brought to justice. I would call

:20:23.:20:27.

upon the Shadow Secretary of State to join us in calling for Sinn Fein

:20:28.:20:33.

to step forward to the plate and to own up and come clean and to give

:20:34.:20:37.

the information to families who have been waiting for decades for truth

:20:38.:20:39.

and justice. I did not agree more with the

:20:40.:20:46.

honourable gentleman. I believe that is part and parcel of democratically

:20:47.:20:58.

elected politicians, making sure no-one runs away from that. Anyone

:20:59.:21:04.

who has been killed as a result of trouble in Northern Ireland,

:21:05.:21:08.

civilians, paramilitary or the selfies individuals who protected

:21:09.:21:12.

Northern Ireland, the Armed Forces and in the RUC, they all deserve the

:21:13.:21:16.

truth. I call on all parties to do all they can to make that truth

:21:17.:21:23.

known. Indeed. I am grateful for him giving way. He

:21:24.:21:27.

mentions the contribution of the Armed Forces in Northern Ireland. As

:21:28.:21:31.

a former soldier, I wondered if he would confirm his belief that the

:21:32.:21:35.

British army should not be subject to further investigations for the

:21:36.:21:37.

actions that they took during the troubles? Will he confirm that his

:21:38.:21:42.

party, under its current leadership, have their loyalty firmly with the

:21:43.:21:47.

British army, not the IRA? It is quite clear, from my point of view,

:21:48.:21:55.

that if people in uniform did not act correctly, I am sorry, I cannot

:21:56.:21:59.

agree that they should not be brought to book. Because what signal

:22:00.:22:05.

would be sent out? That it is right to act out of order? We expect the

:22:06.:22:10.

highest standards from all our people in uniform. In terms of his

:22:11.:22:13.

comments on the leadership, it is very clear that my party is

:22:14.:22:17.

committed to our Armed Forces and not any terrorist organisation. Will

:22:18.:22:22.

hear except, however, and this is the point member opposite was trying

:22:23.:22:25.

to make, that any incident in either the police or the army were

:22:26.:22:30.

involved, and we are there was a killing, should not be treated as if

:22:31.:22:42.

it were murder? That is what causes the anger in so many families. Every

:22:43.:22:48.

killing by terrorists was no doubt a murder. It was illegal. But

:22:49.:22:53.

incidents where police officers and armed services were involved were

:22:54.:22:56.

the protection of life and property and they should not be chased by

:22:57.:23:00.

authorities as they are that present as if something illegal was

:23:01.:23:06.

involved. I am very clear. It is obvious that the fast majority of

:23:07.:23:12.

things done by the Armed Forces were not murder. But the process of

:23:13.:23:20.

investigation needs to be put back together again and we need to get to

:23:21.:23:25.

the bottom of it. If there are some cases that could be construed, this

:23:26.:23:30.

is quite clearly in the agreement, the papers signed in the past to try

:23:31.:23:33.

and make this work, we have to get the root of this and it has to be

:23:34.:23:38.

aired in public. But as we say. I agree with the vast majority of

:23:39.:23:44.

things that were done that we are in no sense murder by the Armed Forces.

:23:45.:23:53.

In the interest of Northern Ireland and the Government, we have to get

:23:54.:24:00.

the legacy stuff resolved properly. We at Label except there will be

:24:01.:24:03.

some genuine issues on the National Security Council. -- at Labour. But

:24:04.:24:14.

let's never use the National is -- security to cover up the wrong

:24:15.:24:17.

doings of the state. I include my former colleagues in Labour

:24:18.:24:20.

Government as well as his informer Conservative governments. Thank you

:24:21.:24:26.

for giving way. Before you go so the issue of legacy, he spent some time

:24:27.:24:30.

detailing a case which is a legacy case. I challenge him. The detail in

:24:31.:24:40.

the other case that lists a unionist grievance, does he know any Unionist

:24:41.:24:47.

grievances? I do. But they are not prepared to discuss it today

:24:48.:24:51.

because... I will tell him exactly. I use that case because of her Libor

:24:52.:24:58.

was. And I made it very clear. He probably wasn't listening. Usually

:24:59.:25:03.

doesn't. Perhaps he wasn't. I make no differentiation between victims,

:25:04.:25:07.

whoever they were, however they died, how they were injured. They

:25:08.:25:10.

all deserve the right to have a system put in place that lets...

:25:11.:25:20.

That is what has been failed by politicians in Northern Ireland. You

:25:21.:25:23.

have not had a system that works properly. We have to build genuine

:25:24.:25:26.

openness and confidence and trust. If we don't, then people will not

:25:27.:25:30.

ever be able to move this country forward. Another issue I want to

:25:31.:25:38.

raise, moving on from the legacy issue, is discussions that have been

:25:39.:25:42.

taking place between political parties in the last few months about

:25:43.:25:45.

the abuse of the petition of concern. It was put in place in the

:25:46.:25:52.

original agreement to discuss issues around the abuse of power by one

:25:53.:25:57.

community against another. It was to make sure it could not happen in

:25:58.:26:01.

institutions. It is still being used as a Beatle for progress. This is

:26:02.:26:04.

not the intent and we must try and get back to the original intent.

:26:05.:26:11.

Very grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. On that

:26:12.:26:14.

particular point, I do agree with him. One year ago, he might have

:26:15.:26:20.

been in a meeting, I don't know. When I had the meeting with the then

:26:21.:26:23.

first master Peter Robinson and the late Martin McGuinness, made that

:26:24.:26:27.

very point to them. They both defended the petition of concern

:26:28.:26:34.

process. -- the then First Minister. I tend to agree with him but that is

:26:35.:26:40.

what you come up against. I have no doubt that people who want to use it

:26:41.:26:44.

for the purposes of what I said, i.e., a foetal, and not genuinely

:26:45.:26:47.

resolving problems, would say that. Of course they would. But this is

:26:48.:26:54.

part and parcel of me trying to say, let's try and find a way to get this

:26:55.:26:58.

Executive up and running again. It is not about scoring points or

:26:59.:27:02.

making points about things that happened 40 years ago. These are the

:27:03.:27:06.

issues that people are telling me. This is why we cannot sit down here.

:27:07.:27:12.

I am saying, any reasonable human being should try to find a way

:27:13.:27:15.

through this. Another one I want to address is a point again that I

:27:16.:27:21.

believe agreement could be reached on. It is around the renewable

:27:22.:27:25.

heating initiative. The fig we were all told was the straw that broke

:27:26.:27:32.

the camel's back. -- the thing. When enquiry comes out, we will work to

:27:33.:27:38.

make sure that any funding shortfall is not landed directly on the

:27:39.:27:45.

grounds of Northern Ireland, unless there is a way it can be managed

:27:46.:27:48.

over a period of time. That is very important, so we do not end up

:27:49.:27:53.

losing funding for vital public service is well this is cleaned up.

:27:54.:28:00.

We need to trust each other and move away from entrenched positions. I

:28:01.:28:03.

will say this to Sinn Fein. Drop your demands for the leader of the

:28:04.:28:08.

DUP to stand aside while this enquiry goes on. I ask for

:28:09.:28:15.

assurances that she will cooperate with the enquiry fully, except

:28:16.:28:19.

outcomes and will not hinder progress in any way. I will be a

:28:20.:28:22.

huge step in the direction of the building the trust and confidence

:28:23.:28:27.

that allowed sworn enemies to govern Northern Ireland in previous years.

:28:28.:28:33.

I hope that people will take what I have said today in the it is bent.

:28:34.:28:40.

-- it is meant. The issues that I am being told by people other reasons

:28:41.:28:43.

why the system fell apart. Some people might be cynical and say,

:28:44.:28:48.

that is not the reasons. No doubt we will hear that in the next few

:28:49.:28:53.

hours. But I am being told these are the issues and this is how we should

:28:54.:28:57.

move forward. I am sad we are in this decision today -- situation

:28:58.:29:01.

today before a general election because the Government failed to

:29:02.:29:05.

realise the impact on Northern Ireland. It is sad that the approach

:29:06.:29:10.

taken by the Government in the last few years. The lack of dialogue at

:29:11.:29:14.

present with the Prime Minister and the last Prime Minister have done

:29:15.:29:19.

nothing to let the Eagle of Northern Ireland now that the more than an

:29:20.:29:21.

after thought this Government's mind. It is still a situation of

:29:22.:29:26.

conflict resolution. -- the people of Northern Ireland. I welcome this

:29:27.:29:31.

legislation because it does provide more time for discussions about the

:29:32.:29:41.

formation of an Executive. The Government did not think of the

:29:42.:29:43.

effect this would have on the people of Northern Ireland. Frankly, this

:29:44.:29:47.

bill does not represent direct rule, which it might well have. So I am

:29:48.:29:51.

pleased we have got battered away, at least in the short term. It does

:29:52.:29:59.

set them a mean it is important to set important services for Northern

:30:00.:30:05.

Ireland and fill the gap in the short-term. When this bill gets

:30:06.:30:12.

Royal Ascent hopefully Don Foster, we will sit down and Friday and work

:30:13.:30:19.

it out. I would suggest every one of the things I have laid out today can

:30:20.:30:22.

be resolved if people want to resolve them. If they do not want to

:30:23.:30:28.

do that, we will be back here... I will not be, but some people will be

:30:29.:30:35.

back in a few weeks' time to sort it out. I sadly believe that what we

:30:36.:30:39.

saw Northern Ireland previously might well be repeated. People are

:30:40.:30:46.

said, we tried 20 years to work together, it is never going to

:30:47.:30:49.

happen, it will never work and the only way is to go back to what we

:30:50.:30:54.

are... Wear. None of us should access that and we have to stop that

:30:55.:31:00.

happening. -- access that. Point of order, Mr Paisley.

:31:01.:31:05.

The shadow secretary, when he made his beach, indicated he would list

:31:06.:31:09.

the number of grievances, and number of issues to do with legacy. -- made

:31:10.:31:13.

his speech. Could you confirm the time we have left in this debate?

:31:14.:31:18.

The shadow secretary believed he was running out of time and he does have

:31:19.:31:20.

sufficient time to make those lists available to the House. I thank him

:31:21.:31:26.

for his point of order. Part of it, I can answer. I would expect this

:31:27.:31:33.

part of this debate to, the second reading of the debate, to last until

:31:34.:31:38.

16 minutes past eight. There is plenty of time. As to the content of

:31:39.:31:43.

the speech, indeed the valedictory speech made by the right honourable

:31:44.:31:47.

gentleman from the dispatch box, it is not a matter for me, but entirely

:31:48.:31:53.

a matter for the honourable gentleman. I am sure that if he has

:31:54.:31:56.

something further to add to what he has said, he will find an

:31:57.:32:00.

opportunity in the next three hours to see it. We do of course have,

:32:01.:32:06.

hopefully later today, the third reading debate after the second

:32:07.:32:11.

reading debate, when I will expect to hear some more speeches from both

:32:12.:32:17.

sides of the House. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can

:32:18.:32:24.

I join the Secretary of State in his condemnation of the actions which

:32:25.:32:27.

were taken yesterday. Another attempt to kill innocent men, women

:32:28.:32:33.

and children. And it is totally acceptable in any part of the world.

:32:34.:32:37.

And to think that is continuing in the United Kingdom is apparent to

:32:38.:32:41.

all right thinking people. I join him in his condemnation of that.

:32:42.:32:46.

Canales congratulate him on the work is done in last few weeks, which

:32:47.:32:53.

probably seemed like months to him. Yesterday's absolute utmost, I know,

:32:54.:32:57.

to bring the parties together in Northern Ireland, to get the

:32:58.:33:00.

institutions and running again. I would also like to thank for keeping

:33:01.:33:04.

in touch with me, as chairperson of the select committee, and I thank

:33:05.:33:11.

him for that and wish him well in his future with discussions. But

:33:12.:33:14.

also, I pay tribute to the honourable member on his performance

:33:15.:33:20.

over many, many years in this House. He has worked here many years and

:33:21.:33:23.

there was very sorry to hear that he is not going to seek re-election to

:33:24.:33:27.

Parliament. He was a long-standing and very active and extremely good

:33:28.:33:32.

member of the select committee for many years before he took up his

:33:33.:33:37.

present position. He is, I can confirm, Madam Deputy is bigger, it

:33:38.:33:41.

often negotiate. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. But he is a fair man and it

:33:42.:33:46.

was a pleasure working with them. I wish them well for the future. It is

:33:47.:33:52.

unfortunate that we have to be here yet again to discuss these matters.

:33:53.:33:58.

It is unfortunate that the rates have to be set from this place. That

:33:59.:34:03.

is not entirely democratic. It is not, in any way, satisfactorily.

:34:04.:34:08.

Following an election where there was a high turnout of voters, we end

:34:09.:34:12.

up taking decisions here in this place, which should be rightly taken

:34:13.:34:17.

in Northern Ireland. Unfortunately, it is worse than that because that

:34:18.:34:21.

is just a microcosm of a bigger situation. I do know that there are

:34:22.:34:26.

individuals, businesses and many others in Northern Ireland that

:34:27.:34:30.

really do see the breaking down of institutions as a distraction from

:34:31.:34:34.

what they want to do. Only last week, I had a meeting with the

:34:35.:34:37.

business that wants to expand and wants to bring potentially hundreds

:34:38.:34:40.

of jobs to Northern Ireland. And they did not know where they are.

:34:41.:34:45.

They did not know what the situation is. They do not know how the

:34:46.:34:49.

planning process will work because it is a large application. They

:34:50.:34:52.

really do regret this situation and it is not one that any of us want to

:34:53.:34:57.

find ourselves in, but here we are again.

:34:58.:35:01.

And glad that the Secretary of State outline the options because if it is

:35:02.:35:07.

found, he didn't use the words direct rule, but that is also what

:35:08.:35:11.

we are sliding towards if we cannot get the institutions up and running

:35:12.:35:14.

in Northern Ireland. It is not something I want to see happen. But

:35:15.:35:20.

I do want to see that the concerns the Company made with the last week

:35:21.:35:24.

are addressed. I won individual to create the jobs in Northern Ireland

:35:25.:35:28.

without the distraction of repeated elections or decisions being taken

:35:29.:35:35.

in a place far away, that is not what those kind of people want. Just

:35:36.:35:40.

a couple of weeks ago I was in Northern Ireland on a social visit,

:35:41.:35:44.

speaking to friends over there, actually Catholics if that is an

:35:45.:35:49.

important factor, it is an important factor because of what I'm about to

:35:50.:35:54.

say. They said to be, get on with it, bring direct rule back, that is

:35:55.:35:58.

the only way we're going to get any decisions taken. They don't

:35:59.:36:01.

particularly want to see that, most people probably don't want to, but

:36:02.:36:05.

if it is a choice between chaos and direct rule, people will go for

:36:06.:36:09.

direct rule. They have too. It is rarely unfortunate that we have got

:36:10.:36:13.

to that position, I can I just say to those who are likely to bring

:36:14.:36:18.

about that situation, and it is not people who are present in the

:36:19.:36:21.

chamber today, in my belief, it is people who refused to take their

:36:22.:36:25.

seats in this chamber, it really would be rather paradoxical, strange

:36:26.:36:30.

that the one party that don't want rule from this place are fighting a

:36:31.:36:34.

party that brings it about. How odd that be? Let me just perhaps if they

:36:35.:36:41.

are listening about what direct rule really means, I was a shadow

:36:42.:36:45.

minister when we had it in the previous parliament, it doesn't been

:36:46.:36:48.

actually that this chamber decides everything, it doesn't mean that. It

:36:49.:36:53.

means there are committees upstairs of 20 or so members, hand-picked by

:36:54.:37:00.

the whips, very few of those members would be from Northern Ireland

:37:01.:37:05.

because of the mathematics of it. Things, very important matters are

:37:06.:37:08.

decided in this committee. That is the reality of direct rule. I would

:37:09.:37:12.

say to those who are getting in the way obvious that set up again is

:37:13.:37:16.

that how you want Northern Ireland to be governed? We accept that Sinn

:37:17.:37:22.

Fein have got form on this issue. When they want to dodge, and this

:37:23.:37:26.

has never got some resonance in the current situation, when they want to

:37:27.:37:32.

dodge hard decisions, they are quite happy despite their rhetoric to hand

:37:33.:37:40.

powers back to Westminster for the hard decisions to be made, as they

:37:41.:37:43.

did with welfare reform about a year and they have a go. The honourable

:37:44.:37:50.

gentleman makes a very good point, I don't know what their logic is. I

:37:51.:37:55.

genuinely don't know. As I've said, the other party that shout the

:37:56.:38:02.

loudest about their opposition to British rule, and yet they seem to

:38:03.:38:07.

be the party that are about to bring it about. Certainly cannot

:38:08.:38:11.

understand the logic of that position. As I say, I don't want to

:38:12.:38:16.

go down that road. There is time to avoid that road. But I think that

:38:17.:38:21.

taxes onto the next point, and that about power-sharing. All sides, the

:38:22.:38:27.

say no to power-sharing, have good except what that means, which is

:38:28.:38:31.

working with people you don't necessarily like, want to work with.

:38:32.:38:37.

It means compromising on certain policies, you don't always get the

:38:38.:38:42.

exact policy that you want. Come to think of it, I suppose every

:38:43.:38:47.

political party is like that. We all have discussions within political

:38:48.:38:50.

parties, we all have disagreements on policy within political parties.

:38:51.:38:54.

We all have to work within political parties with people who perhaps we

:38:55.:38:58.

don't want to work with. That is the reality of politics. That is the

:38:59.:39:02.

reality of many jobs. If you work in a company, of course you have to

:39:03.:39:05.

work with people you don't like. Of course you have to work on policies

:39:06.:39:09.

with people you might not agree with. That is the nature of work. If

:39:10.:39:13.

they are not prepared to accept those compromises, if they are going

:39:14.:39:17.

to run away every time there a difference of opinion, take the ball

:39:18.:39:21.

home and Bingley is the juices down, it won't work. They have to except

:39:22.:39:26.

that all parties -- parties and not just talk about one party, all

:39:27.:39:32.

parties have except that. By all means. Madam Deputy Speaker, is the

:39:33.:39:40.

member... I'm not here to represent Sinn Fein, but as the members

:39:41.:39:47.

seriously suggesting that we should have turned a blind eye to the

:39:48.:39:50.

crisis over the new build the initiative and done nothing? The

:39:51.:39:57.

member to my mind is ignoring the fact that this crisis was triggered

:39:58.:40:03.

by a serious issue of confidence that needs to be resolved and needs

:40:04.:40:07.

to be dealt with. While other things have piled in controller abuse and

:40:08.:40:10.

there's a lot of it coming from the bench here behind me, but the point

:40:11.:40:16.

is this, it serves no purpose and if we had to go forward we need to

:40:17.:40:19.

restore devolution in Northern Ireland, and we're going to do that,

:40:20.:40:23.

we have to behave in a sane and sensible and mature fashion and

:40:24.:40:30.

recognise the fact... It is a pleasure working with the honourable

:40:31.:40:32.

gentleman on the select committee as well, and the bid is a great deal of

:40:33.:40:40.

calm and common sense to it. I understand what he's saying, had I'm

:40:41.:40:42.

not saying it should be brushed under the carpet, but I don't see

:40:43.:40:45.

why they could not have been an enquiry carried on with the then

:40:46.:40:52.

First Minister still in place. I think to risk bringing the whole

:40:53.:40:58.

institutions down on any issue, I don't think that is worth it. That

:40:59.:41:04.

is a big issue, it is worth half ?1 billion over 20 years, I don't think

:41:05.:41:08.

that is a big enough issue to bring down the institution. No, I don't. I

:41:09.:41:16.

commend him for all he has done as chairman of the Northern Ireland

:41:17.:41:19.

affairs committee. Will he agree with me that at times we see double

:41:20.:41:23.

standards operating in Northern Ireland? Any constituency of south

:41:24.:41:27.

Belfast, we had a most brutal murder in a pub of a young man by members

:41:28.:41:38.

of the IRA, and as a result this party and others questioned the

:41:39.:41:41.

ability of Sinn Fein and their fitness for Government and

:41:42.:41:47.

confidence in that fitness, and yet the SDLP did nothing. Absolutely

:41:48.:41:52.

nothing. Nothing to challenge Sinn Fein on that issue in terms of their

:41:53.:41:58.

fitness for Government. Are they not double standards operating here? Is

:41:59.:42:04.

one more that not one more than the scandal? The Right Honourable member

:42:05.:42:12.

raises an important point. It goes back to the point I was trying to

:42:13.:42:16.

make earlier. We either except that we had the work would be will be

:42:17.:42:21.

don't like don't want to work with, well, we don't. And if we don't

:42:22.:42:24.

accept that, there is no power-sharing. It is to believe

:42:25.:42:30.

that. It is true, I'm afraid it is a very good point. I'm afraid it is a

:42:31.:42:35.

very good point that parties on both sides have to work with people they

:42:36.:42:39.

don't want. There are accusations about certain members of the

:42:40.:42:46.

Assembly, and if they are in this place then we have to work closely

:42:47.:42:50.

with them, maybe we wouldn't look like that either, but it has had to

:42:51.:42:52.

happen for the sake of demolition, for the sake of years the juices. He

:42:53.:42:59.

is right to draw our attention to some of the terrible crimes which

:43:00.:43:03.

have been committed, and the shadow minister has an questioned on

:43:04.:43:09.

quoting crime from across-the-board, I know that he very much condemned

:43:10.:43:16.

crimes wherever they come from, just this morning I was done by the

:43:17.:43:19.

select committee is looking at concluding its report into Libyans

:43:20.:43:24.

answered IRA activity, and I was at the leading the proposed document

:43:25.:43:27.

this morning without going into the details, because the committee has

:43:28.:43:31.

not considered it, but in that draft report today are many examples of

:43:32.:43:38.

IRA violence, the way the IRA has poured lighter part, and just

:43:39.:43:42.

rereading some of those things this morning in the car as I came down

:43:43.:43:46.

really does remind us of what has gone on in Northern Ireland and how

:43:47.:43:50.

unacceptable it was full stop but I don't want to get into the issue of

:43:51.:43:53.

the prosecution of the soldiers at this point. It's going the central

:43:54.:43:58.

part of the debate. Of course one side in the Commons always reverted

:43:59.:44:02.

the war. The reason the reverted as a war is because it excused the

:44:03.:44:07.

indiscriminate killing of men and women and children, that is why they

:44:08.:44:13.

call it a wall. The other side I expected ago the book by the yellow

:44:14.:44:18.

card. That seems to me a very unfair way of looking at this whole

:44:19.:44:23.

situation and the legacy issue. I thank him for giving way and I can't

:44:24.:44:29.

him as a framed in terms of the support he gives the Northern

:44:30.:44:31.

Ireland too many years. Does he accept the night that the Bill

:44:32.:44:36.

before the House has not tipped the scales in favour of direct rule?

:44:37.:44:41.

Tonight people in Ulster will be watching their televisions and it is

:44:42.:44:45.

this House that is setting their rates. But last ten years it has

:44:46.:44:48.

been a Northern Ireland Assembly that was setting their rates. With

:44:49.:44:53.

that balance being kept, with each piece of legislation that comes

:44:54.:44:56.

forward, it has go to make it harder and harder and harder to get back to

:44:57.:45:03.

demolition. I think he puts his finger on the problem. It is a

:45:04.:45:07.

slippery slope. In some ways the Bill offers the opportunity as well

:45:08.:45:11.

for people to get together and can reform the Executive, it does allow

:45:12.:45:15.

for that. That is part of the Bill as well. But the right honourable

:45:16.:45:19.

gentleman is right, it is actually not this whole House that is going

:45:20.:45:24.

to decide the rates, it is going to be, with respect, the only way he

:45:25.:45:27.

could do committee Secretary of State. It goes back to what I said

:45:28.:45:30.

about direct rule earlier. All Honourable members won't get a say

:45:31.:45:35.

on the detail of things whereas if it was set in Northern Ireland there

:45:36.:45:39.

would be much more involvement by local people, so that would be

:45:40.:45:43.

indeed far better. I want to conclude by just making this point.

:45:44.:45:48.

I really do hope that the Secretary of State somewhere other is able to

:45:49.:45:51.

get the parties together in Northern Ireland we avoid committees upstairs

:45:52.:45:56.

running Northern Ireland, which is as I've said, most unsatisfactory.

:45:57.:46:01.

If he does even if he doesn't, I said this in the House before, I

:46:02.:46:07.

really do think we need to look at some of the Belfast agreement,

:46:08.:46:10.

legislation, deceive it needs updating, and that is not in any way

:46:11.:46:15.

to undermine the principles or power-sharing or anything else. It

:46:16.:46:18.

is an attempt to make it work. At the moment it isn't working. I as we

:46:19.:46:22.

would be sitting here now. We wouldn't have been in crisis 18

:46:23.:46:26.

months ago either. I don't want evident to be set up only to find

:46:27.:46:31.

another crisis is some six or 12 months later. I think the shadow

:46:32.:46:34.

city and state passed on it earlier with that petition of concern issue.

:46:35.:46:38.

I did raise that and was told that the parties are happy with it at

:46:39.:46:41.

that time. I think that needs looking at, but a lot of other

:46:42.:46:46.

things be looking at, semi-moderniser, updated, so the

:46:47.:46:50.

whole arrangement is able to address the situation that we find ourselves

:46:51.:46:55.

in now and not the one we were in 20 years ago, because without that a

:46:56.:46:59.

lot of progress has been made, be cannot deny that and shouldn't want

:47:00.:47:03.

to. But we have to get the political process right as well, because if we

:47:04.:47:08.

don't, what will happen is people will completely lose faith in it.

:47:09.:47:19.

That is nobody 's interest. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I

:47:20.:47:23.

associate myself with the comments of the Secretary of State about the

:47:24.:47:28.

terrible discovery made yesterday, and indeed commend all emergency

:47:29.:47:32.

services and the police for their tremendous efforts on their

:47:33.:47:36.

community 's behalf? And idiot also for his words about the shadow

:47:37.:47:40.

Secretary of State, stepping down not only from this position but for

:47:41.:47:46.

that form the shadow sexy assay for Scotland, his efforts on both units

:47:47.:47:50.

are very much appreciated. I will be very brief. The SNP will support the

:47:51.:47:55.

passage of this Bill, the decisions being made would be better made than

:47:56.:47:58.

the other side of the Irish Sea, but we are where we are, and it is

:47:59.:48:02.

important to get rateable value set so that the ministration of public

:48:03.:48:07.

services can continue. There are Brexit difficulties coming down the

:48:08.:48:09.

road, especially around the border issues, and it is right to do all be

:48:10.:48:15.

can to minimise the turbulence, but these decisions should more properly

:48:16.:48:19.

be made in storm at. There is a real need to get the little

:48:20.:48:22.

administration install mod back up and running and I am fairly sure

:48:23.:48:25.

that the electorate that has been asked to go back to the polls for a

:48:26.:48:29.

snap general election so soon after a snap storm a collection will be

:48:30.:48:33.

urging a resolution to the negotiations and a resumption of

:48:34.:48:37.

administration duties. Getting an administration running, so that

:48:38.:48:40.

decisions are taken there rather than here, would be the best option

:48:41.:48:45.

all round and that should be our main aim. As I said, the SNP will

:48:46.:48:56.

support this Bill. Can I begin by echoing previous comment

:48:57.:48:59.

co-operatively by the Secretary of State on the vile and callously bomb

:49:00.:49:04.

left outside the Holy Cross primary school and commend all those in the

:49:05.:49:11.

security forces who handled the incident and who are handling

:49:12.:49:15.

similar incident 24 hours a day, seven days a week, every day of the

:49:16.:49:19.

year, and we all owe them a great deal of thanks by the manner in

:49:20.:49:24.

which they continue to police Northern Ireland. Can I also pay

:49:25.:49:29.

tribute to their predecessors, who created the conditions under

:49:30.:49:34.

intensively difficult circumstances and extraordinary provocation, which

:49:35.:49:38.

enabled the peace process to take place? On that basis, I wholly

:49:39.:49:43.

commend the comments on my right honourable friend, the Secretary of

:49:44.:49:46.

State, who has shown remarkable for parents and patients, has been

:49:47.:49:52.

abused and criticised I think quite unfairly in recent weeks, and has

:49:53.:49:56.

let himself in for a further extension to two the 29th of June,

:49:57.:50:01.

which I think is a wholly sensible measure, and he quite rightly said

:50:02.:50:06.

there isn't a single member that I know in this House who would like to

:50:07.:50:13.

see direct rule return. As the shadow sexy said in his last

:50:14.:50:16.

validated performance, we were missing in the next parliament,

:50:17.:50:18.

quite rightly concurred as well, there was never to hear that was

:50:19.:50:23.

direct rule to come back. There is a slightly darker narrative that some

:50:24.:50:30.

sort of crazy Brits want to reimpose. Absolutely not.

:50:31.:50:38.

The institutions were set up and the agreement pastor did the most

:50:39.:50:44.

extraordinary period of negotiation and bipartisan agreement, one

:50:45.:50:48.

Conservative administrations made intensely difficult decisions that

:50:49.:50:53.

were supported by the Labour opposition and in time, when Labour

:50:54.:50:57.

came to power, we were in opposition and we supported the Labour

:50:58.:51:03.

Government and I was, had the honour to be the shadow secretary when the

:51:04.:51:08.

last major element went through, which was the devolution of policing

:51:09.:51:13.

and justice. And we backed Labour all the way. And we saw a similar

:51:14.:51:18.

process in Dublin, where both main parties consistently supported the

:51:19.:51:23.

process, and of course, none of this could have happened without the

:51:24.:51:24.

extraordinary support of both parties in the United states. And

:51:25.:51:31.

there is now exasperation that we have come to this point. There's

:51:32.:51:35.

been such progress made, and I would like to speak up for those hard

:51:36.:51:38.

working people on the ground in Northern Ireland will stop. The

:51:39.:51:46.

right honourable member and I appeared in spotlight if you weeks

:51:47.:51:52.

ago and a woman asked the question is, she asked, what about our

:51:53.:51:55.

budget? Who will pay our bills? That was exactly the right question to be

:51:56.:52:00.

posed. She, along with many others, he probably voted in the election on

:52:01.:52:07.

March to to elect politicians, local politicians to make those decisions.

:52:08.:52:13.

None of us want to make those decisions for local politicians. And

:52:14.:52:18.

I go and see those wonderful, world-class businesses who are

:52:19.:52:20.

trying to attract investment in Northern Ireland, who are travelling

:52:21.:52:25.

on behalf of Northern Ireland, representing brilliant, hard-working

:52:26.:52:27.

Northern Ireland people, and what is the international message? Will he

:52:28.:52:36.

accept that there is a longer term strategy that is now re-emerging

:52:37.:52:41.

from Sinn Fein and that is to make Northern Ireland unstable? So the

:52:42.:52:47.

people of Northern Ireland actually start questioning Northern Ireland's

:52:48.:52:50.

ability to govern itself and maybe it is a tactic of their is that they

:52:51.:52:58.

are re-emerging into. Think I would like to -- I don't think I would

:52:59.:53:03.

like to comet on the motives of any political party. I've been involved

:53:04.:53:09.

in Northern Ireland as the shadow secretary and real Secretary of

:53:10.:53:11.

State, and there is such goodwill across all parts of the community. I

:53:12.:53:15.

don't like talking about communities, like to talk about the

:53:16.:53:19.

whole community. There is, for this to work, real goodwill. And there is

:53:20.:53:23.

now exasperation. And I am particularly exasperated. My

:53:24.:53:27.

project, which involves rapid editors of four parties and the

:53:28.:53:33.

fifth one was also supportive, was to give the ability of Northern

:53:34.:53:37.

Ireland politicians to set corporation tax. Because we know

:53:38.:53:40.

that the Republic of Ireland's determination in the face of intense

:53:41.:53:44.

criticism from other major member state of the EU to hold onto its

:53:45.:53:48.

right to set corporation tax has been the key to their success. The

:53:49.:53:52.

then Finance minister in Dublin, who as I say was the corner stone of

:53:53.:54:01.

their success, as part of what was... The agreement, it was vital

:54:02.:54:06.

that the democratic institution in a devolved area was able to make that

:54:07.:54:10.

decision. For me, having got this through, having got unity amongst

:54:11.:54:13.

Northern Ireland parties, having got pretty well all Northern Ireland

:54:14.:54:18.

businesses supporting this, knowing the tremendous good it could do,

:54:19.:54:24.

knowing that just over the border there is an extraordinary amount of

:54:25.:54:27.

investment because of the corporation tax, and so much of that

:54:28.:54:33.

could have gone to Londonderry if that rate had been set, it is just

:54:34.:54:37.

exasperating that for me, this is one of the greatest achievements of

:54:38.:54:42.

the coalition Government and I hate rich tributes to my honourable

:54:43.:54:47.

friend from Chipping Barnet, it is there. The powers are there, if only

:54:48.:54:55.

local politicians would grab that opportunity and establish an

:54:56.:55:01.

Executive. So briefly, Madam Deputy Speaker, I support this bill, I

:55:02.:55:06.

endorse the comments of the Secretary of State and the shadow

:55:07.:55:09.

Secretary of State is that Lord would like to see is an Executive

:55:10.:55:14.

set up -- what we would like to see is an Executive set up. It is

:55:15.:55:21.

necessary to set a regional rate, sadly, we have to do that. They'll

:55:22.:55:25.

temporarily. And I think it is sensible, and I wish him well, for

:55:26.:55:30.

the Secretary of State to set a lengthy target of the 29th of June.

:55:31.:55:37.

But if the local politicians elected still don't come to their senses by

:55:38.:55:44.

then, I really would ask the Secretary of State to consider

:55:45.:55:47.

bringing back legislation here on the issue of the cost of Stormont.

:55:48.:55:52.

Very quickly, Madden and beady speaker, Stormont costs about ?1

:55:53.:55:58.

million per month in salaries and expenses for members of the

:55:59.:56:02.

assembly. And I know full well on the ground, numbers of the Northern

:56:03.:56:11.

Ireland public... Thank you to the right honourable gentleman for

:56:12.:56:16.

giving way. When he was shadow Secretary of State before he took

:56:17.:56:22.

office, he promised people, he went around Northern Ireland and told

:56:23.:56:26.

this house that when a Conservative administration came into power, he

:56:27.:56:28.

would steal with the cost of Sinn Fein MPs who take their place here,

:56:29.:56:34.

don't do any work. -- you would deal with the cost. He would do nothing

:56:35.:56:42.

about it, full of nothing, would he now agree that if they are going to

:56:43.:56:47.

take steps at Stormont, we need to take steps at Westminster as well to

:56:48.:56:55.

address the same problem of people who are elected to this house and

:56:56.:56:59.

don't do their job voluntarily eyes for us on the DUP ventures, this

:57:00.:57:09.

will be a critical issue. This is a critical issue, but I was Secretary

:57:10.:57:12.

of State in a coalition Government and what we looking at now is a

:57:13.:57:15.

Conservative Government. But honourable members, I note they

:57:16.:57:22.

don't like this, there are very few tools left in the Secretary of

:57:23.:57:26.

State's box. One of them is debate financial pressure on the political

:57:27.:57:32.

parties. That may hurt his party, it may hurt his competitors. But I have

:57:33.:57:39.

not heard from the other side way this should not be done. I have not

:57:40.:57:43.

heard a single member of the public in Northern Ireland criticise this

:57:44.:57:49.

will stop there was a poll in the Belfast Telegraph, and a very large

:57:50.:57:52.

majority supported the idea. We still have time, following this

:57:53.:57:58.

bill, if it goes through today, there will be four months and I

:57:59.:58:06.

don't think it is unfair, I think this view has huge support across

:58:07.:58:10.

Northern Ireland amongst the general public, I don't think it is unfair

:58:11.:58:13.

to say that if elected members cannot get their act together after

:58:14.:58:17.

four months, then the cease to receive public money and salary. I

:58:18.:58:30.

take it, now, that he will repeat the same call in relation to members

:58:31.:58:33.

here and their staff who are in receipt of public money and do not

:58:34.:58:38.

do their jobs? Will you say that clearly to the Government from the

:58:39.:58:44.

bench today? I am a simple backbencher, but he knows very well

:58:45.:58:52.

that I believe very strongly, and Lady Boothroyd said very clearly

:58:53.:58:57.

that there is no such thing as associate membership of this house.

:58:58.:59:01.

She was right. Elected members of this house should take their seats

:59:02.:59:03.

if they are to receive public money. But this does not get away from the

:59:04.:59:07.

point I'm making, which is germane to the 29th of June, and I repeat

:59:08.:59:14.

again. Should elected members not get their act together and not form

:59:15.:59:19.

an Executive, the Government should take steps to stop them getting

:59:20.:59:24.

salaries and expenses from the public purse, because that will put

:59:25.:59:28.

pressure on them. That is what the people of Northern Ireland will be

:59:29.:59:31.

the king. Imagine that, Madam Deputy Speaker, I will be supporting the

:59:32.:59:39.

bill tonight. I'm in agreement with the Jedi set here is a that we

:59:40.:59:44.

regret that it has come to this point. Tonight, first of, echoed the

:59:45.:59:53.

words of the Secretary of State and other members who have spoken in the

:59:54.:59:57.

house today, congratulating the security forces on stopping the

:59:58.:00:03.

murder of policemen as a result of a bomb lies outside a primary school

:00:04.:00:10.

in north Belfast in the constituency of my honourable friend. Can I just

:00:11.:00:18.

say, I'm disappointed... Maybe I shouldn't be disappointed with the

:00:19.:00:21.

spokesman for the Labour Party on this. Here, along with the BBC this

:00:22.:00:32.

morning, almost tried to associate this bowl with the fact that there

:00:33.:00:36.

was a political impasse at Stormont. -- try to associate this bomb... The

:00:37.:00:45.

police rejected it, the primary school rejected it, and both made

:00:46.:00:57.

clear, they fully understood that the people who plans these bombs

:00:58.:01:01.

don't care whether Stormont is working. It Stormont is working it

:01:02.:01:05.

as an excuse, if it is not working it as an excuse, because they are

:01:06.:01:09.

determined to bring terror to the streets of Northern Ireland simply

:01:10.:01:13.

to get the way which they can't get through the ballot box. Somehow or

:01:14.:01:25.

other, there is justification in punting bombs because of what is

:01:26.:01:31.

happening in politics, there is no justification. Can I just say, very

:01:32.:01:43.

clearly, he has not got it in anyway right about what I said. I condemned

:01:44.:01:47.

the act, the first thing I said. What I did say at the end was that

:01:48.:01:52.

the failure to get a resolution will give some people another excuse to

:01:53.:01:56.

go back to the bad old days and that is nothing at all to say in anyway

:01:57.:02:02.

that I condone what went on. Not a chance. And the point I'm making is

:02:03.:02:06.

that they don't need excuse. Because they have been... They are committed

:02:07.:02:14.

to changing the status of Northern Ireland to violence. And as I said,

:02:15.:02:18.

whether Stormont is working full tilt or not working, that'll be

:02:19.:02:24.

sufficient reason for them to continue what they are doing. That

:02:25.:02:29.

is the first point I wanted to make. My second point is this, whilst I

:02:30.:02:33.

welcome the comments that were made by the spokesman for Sinn Fein in

:02:34.:02:39.

north Belfast this morning about the incident, when he talked about how

:02:40.:02:43.

violent this action was, that a school should be used as a basis for

:02:44.:02:49.

an attack on the security forces, that is not forget that Sinn Fein

:02:50.:03:03.

used schools in the past as a means of attacking embers of the security

:03:04.:03:08.

forces. Indeed, they walked into classrooms and shop part-time

:03:09.:03:12.

members of the security forces. They blew up buses that had children on

:03:13.:03:16.

them, taking them to school. They killed the driver 's bosses who were

:03:17.:03:23.

taking children to school. Whilst we welcome the fact that they now

:03:24.:03:26.

appears to be a change of heart on the part of Sinn Fein, I think that

:03:27.:03:30.

it does as well to remember that the tactics which are used by the

:03:31.:03:35.

dissidents are no different from the tactics that were used by the Sinn

:03:36.:03:41.

Fein and the IRA for years in Northern Ireland. This is a

:03:42.:03:47.

necessary piece of legislation. I think the Secretary of State could

:03:48.:03:50.

have gone further when introducing this bill will stop I am making it

:03:51.:03:55.

quite clear to Sinn Fein, because they... I will come to later on,

:03:56.:04:02.

Sinn Fein have created the situation we're in our present and are

:04:03.:04:08.

responsible for this stalemate we face at present. But I think the

:04:09.:04:11.

Secretary of State should have made it clear that the alternative to

:04:12.:04:18.

progress is that there will be direct rule, and that possibility

:04:19.:04:24.

should have been stuck out in this house. -- the puzzles it should have

:04:25.:04:33.

been spelled-out in this House. There is a policy of not offending

:04:34.:04:43.

Sinn Fein, and we should pay less attention to the Northern Ireland

:04:44.:04:46.

Office and more to the people on the ground. I will say to the Secretary

:04:47.:04:49.

of State that had he acted more quickly at the beginning of this

:04:50.:04:52.

crisis, we could have avoided the situation that we have in Northern

:04:53.:04:56.

Ireland. Because time and again, he stood at the dispatch box and

:04:57.:05:00.

despite the fact, the pleas from this party, from the Labour Party,

:05:01.:05:05.

from the Scottish Nationalists and by some of his own backbenchers, he

:05:06.:05:10.

did not initiate the investigation that could have taken the sting out

:05:11.:05:16.

of the accusation that Sinn Fein were making about the Renewable Heat

:05:17.:05:21.

Incentive. And time and again I heard it. Because there was not

:05:22.:05:27.

agreement amongst the political parties, he could not initiate an

:05:28.:05:32.

investigation and cynically, as soon as Sinn Fein had got what they

:05:33.:05:39.

wanted, mainly, bringing down the Executive, the first person to

:05:40.:05:46.

announce the enquiry was no less than Mairtin O'Muilleoir, the Sinn

:05:47.:05:52.

Fein minister for the Department of Finance. At the Secretary of State

:05:53.:06:01.

initiate an enquiry... I know that the spokesman for the Labour Party

:06:02.:06:04.

talked about the need to get away from this particular part of the

:06:05.:06:10.

impasse. Arlene Foster never refused to take part in a public enquiry.

:06:11.:06:17.

She never refused to be prepared to go and give an account and be

:06:18.:06:21.

questioned at a public enquiry. The problem was, there wasn't one! And

:06:22.:06:28.

the Secretary of State, had he been prepared to grasp that that'll could

:06:29.:06:33.

have avoided, at least, the excuse that Sinn Fein use at that stage

:06:34.:06:36.

that they didn't have clarity on this whole issue and until that was

:06:37.:06:39.

done they couldn't possibly work with other foster. But I think the

:06:40.:06:47.

lesson should be led from that, that sometimes, despite the threats from

:06:48.:06:59.

Sinn Fein, it is important not to listen to the wets within the

:07:00.:07:01.

Northern Ireland Office and to act on his particle instincts.

:07:02.:07:10.

I agree with the honourable member on the point that the Government

:07:11.:07:22.

should have acted a lot more, but he is building a complete fiction in

:07:23.:07:25.

trying to say that the DUP wanted a public enquiry. They opposed a

:07:26.:07:27.

public enquiry, and were on the same page as Sinn Fein in doing so. It

:07:28.:07:37.

was on that a few that the secretary of the nature that he and his

:07:38.:07:42.

colleagues stayed out of the issue. I do not want to bore the House with

:07:43.:07:47.

the details of what happened in December last year, but the First

:07:48.:07:51.

Minister at that stage made it quite clear that she believed she had

:07:52.:07:57.

nothing to hide, and was prepared to face an enquiry. She was prepared to

:07:58.:08:02.

have that enquiry on whatever status was required to get to the truth,

:08:03.:08:08.

and that is still her position. I think the second point that I want

:08:09.:08:14.

to make is that this Bill is necessary because of the way in

:08:15.:08:16.

which the finances of Northern Ireland have been left, and again, I

:08:17.:08:21.

think there are lessons to be learned from this. I suspect that

:08:22.:08:27.

the Secretary of State is going to have to come back at the end of June

:08:28.:08:32.

with another Bill to implement the budget in Northern Ireland. It will

:08:33.:08:37.

not be a satisfactory budget because it will probably be based on last

:08:38.:08:43.

year's distribution of finances, to ensure that 100% of the budget is

:08:44.:08:47.

spent, but that's no new priorities can be set, and of course, as the

:08:48.:08:53.

former Secretary of State for Northern Ireland has stated, one of

:08:54.:08:58.

the central planks of the economic policy of the Executive will not be

:08:59.:09:05.

able to be contained in that budget, because it will not be possible for

:09:06.:09:09.

this House role we remain in the EU to legislate for the reduction in

:09:10.:09:15.

corporation tax and to allocate the funds within the budget for that. I

:09:16.:09:21.

think that that will be a missed opportunity, and one which many

:09:22.:09:26.

firms in Northern Ireland and many prospective investors in Northern

:09:27.:09:29.

Ireland will view as a missed opportunity. But let's look at why

:09:30.:09:35.

we have no budget, because I think that this gives an indication of

:09:36.:09:41.

where Sinn Fein are really at, and what prospects there are for an

:09:42.:09:45.

agreement. We do not have a budget in Northern Ireland, not because the

:09:46.:09:50.

Executive could not agree a budget, not because it was rejected by the

:09:51.:09:58.

coalition partners, we do not have a budget because there was never, ever

:09:59.:10:01.

a budget brought forward to the Executive. Now, why was that the

:10:02.:10:07.

case? I think the reason why that was the case is because Sinn Fein

:10:08.:10:14.

could not face the reality of having to bring forward a budget which had

:10:15.:10:20.

hard decisions to be made in it. And, of course, that was true when

:10:21.:10:26.

it came to the restructuring of the health service. There was a report

:10:27.:10:30.

on restructuring the health service which could have saved money, and

:10:31.:10:34.

which could have helped with some of the problems that were faced with in

:10:35.:10:38.

the health service at present. They did not act on it. Why? Because it

:10:39.:10:44.

involves hard decisions. When it came to welfare reform over 18

:10:45.:10:47.

months ago, they did not act on that either. They were quite happy for it

:10:48.:10:53.

to be done by the Government here, and the question that has to be

:10:54.:10:57.

asked by those of us who are involved politically in Northern

:10:58.:11:02.

Ireland is, our Sinn Fein serious about getting out of this impasse,

:11:03.:11:10.

or are they quite content? They will never see it, but are they quite

:11:11.:11:15.

content for the process to rule on and on, have direct rule, and have

:11:16.:11:23.

those difficult budgetary decisions and the decisions about allocating

:11:24.:11:25.

resources and about Brexit, and about all of the other things which

:11:26.:11:30.

concern them at present is? Have all of those issues decided here. They

:11:31.:11:38.

can blame the big bad Brits, but they keep their hands clean, and

:11:39.:11:41.

they can still give up the mess in the Irish Republic, perpetuated by

:11:42.:11:48.

the bearded guru of Gerry Adams, that somehow or other they have an

:11:49.:11:54.

economic policy that can avoid any austerity measures. The one thing

:11:55.:11:57.

they do not want is to have to introduce austerity measures or cuts

:11:58.:12:04.

in Northern Ireland, while promising the people in the Irish Republic

:12:05.:12:06.

that they have some kind of economic magic wand that they could with, if

:12:07.:12:11.

only they were in coalition down there. I think that is a question

:12:12.:12:17.

that the Secretary of State has to ask, and that we as a party have to

:12:18.:12:22.

ask. What concessions do they really want, it a question of direct rule

:12:23.:12:27.

might suit their purposes until the election that takes place in the

:12:28.:12:32.

Republic? Rider did not bring forward the budget? Rider did not

:12:33.:12:38.

make hard decisions and they could make hard decisions in the Northern

:12:39.:12:41.

Ireland Assembly? -- why did they not? That has always been that their

:12:42.:12:47.

possession, they consistently run away from those hard decisions, and

:12:48.:12:53.

have done in the past. -- their position. If that is the case, we

:12:54.:12:58.

will have an impasse after the election on the 8th of June. The

:12:59.:13:05.

other point that I want to make, Madam Deputy Speaker, at this

:13:06.:13:09.

particular point, is that we have seen... ?SPACE This has been the

:13:10.:13:13.

difficulty in the talks. We have seen the reason why Sinn Fein cannot

:13:14.:13:21.

not into Government, or will not go into Government, change on almost a

:13:22.:13:29.

weekly basis. First of all it was RHI. Brits is hardly mentioned now.

:13:30.:13:42.

Was RHI such a big scandal that it should have resulted in a

:13:43.:13:50.

constitutional crisis? At the fear of causing some anger on the benches

:13:51.:13:55.

opposite, look at RHI in the United Kingdom. A coal mine down the road,

:13:56.:14:07.

closed in order to bring would pellets from halfway around the

:14:08.:14:12.

world. And no cap on the subsidy, which started off at ?400 million,

:14:13.:14:19.

it is now ?600 million. By 2020, it will be 1000 million. Did the

:14:20.:14:29.

Government fall? No! But yet, a ?25 million overspend, which has now

:14:30.:14:33.

been corrected in Northern Ireland, cost a constitutional crisis. I

:14:34.:14:42.

thank the honourable member for giving way. I think he makes the

:14:43.:14:48.

point very well, but there is no issue that this House could face

:14:49.:14:51.

that would persuade us to disband the whole parliament, is there a?

:14:52.:14:56.

That is the point. And of course, this is a point that was made time

:14:57.:15:00.

and time again, Sinn Fein were ably assisted in this by the BBC, who far

:15:01.:15:10.

I think a consecutive 70 days, kept this issue in the news bulletins.

:15:11.:15:15.

And of course, know it has dropped, I never even hear it mention. -- now

:15:16.:15:21.

it has been dropped. Other issues have come forward, and Irish

:15:22.:15:27.

Language Act. The denial of rights of the Irish language speakers, and

:15:28.:15:33.

of course, and I wish them well on leaving this house, we saw the face

:15:34.:15:37.

of the Labour Party this afternoon in this house, and we heard the

:15:38.:15:43.

voice of Sinn Fein, when the spokesman for the Labour Party gave

:15:44.:15:47.

his speech at the dispatch box. We heard the same kind of excuses, that

:15:48.:15:53.

people were being denied their rights to speak the Irish language.

:15:54.:15:57.

They are not being denied the rights to speak the Irish language. We fund

:15:58.:16:03.

the Irish language through the Assembly to the tune of ?171

:16:04.:16:10.

million. We allowed schools to be open, Irish language skills to be

:16:11.:16:14.

open, and from those schools, when there are as few as 14 pupils in

:16:15.:16:20.

them, while at the same time closing schools in the state sector with 50,

:16:21.:16:27.

100 pupils in them. And yet, we are told that we somehow or other do not

:16:28.:16:30.

give proper treatment to those who wish to speak the Irish language.

:16:31.:16:38.

Councils are free, if they wish, after following the requirements of

:16:39.:16:43.

the legislation, to put Irish names on street signs across their council

:16:44.:16:50.

areas. And yet, we have got this myth perpetuated that somehow, the

:16:51.:16:54.

refusal to accept an Irish Language Act is the big impasse in the talks.

:16:55.:17:01.

We have also been told, of course, that it is, not only that, but we

:17:02.:17:08.

had at parroted again today, and it is surprising that I even saw the

:17:09.:17:15.

Under-Secretary of State nodding his head when he talks about people

:17:16.:17:22.

being denied their rights. Their rights, when it came to, whether it

:17:23.:17:27.

was gay marriage or certain abortion rights. I would simply say to the

:17:28.:17:33.

Minister, the whole point of devolution is that people in regions

:17:34.:17:38.

of the Kingdom have the opportunity to make the laws reflect the views

:17:39.:17:45.

in their society, and I would say the same to the Labour spokesman on

:17:46.:17:50.

this issue. If you want to have uniformity, then do not devolve the

:17:51.:17:56.

issue. If you are allowing their to be differences in different parts of

:17:57.:18:00.

the United Kingdom, then respect devolution, and respect the views of

:18:01.:18:04.

the parties that are elected to those Assemblies, who by the way, do

:18:05.:18:11.

not hide it. We have never had in our manifesto is our views on these

:18:12.:18:14.

issues. People vote for us on those issues, and we have a duty to then

:18:15.:18:19.

reflect that in the decisions which are made. It is not about rights, of

:18:20.:18:26.

course, because we have seen, despite all the rhetoric from Sinn

:18:27.:18:31.

Fein about equality, respect, and rates, etc, we have seen that when

:18:32.:18:37.

it comes to people who serve in the security forces, no willingness to

:18:38.:18:40.

show respect they are. When it comes to the views of people who read

:18:41.:18:47.

represents on many of these issues, no respect they are, and they are

:18:48.:18:53.

claiming that somehow or another we have completely abandoned the

:18:54.:19:00.

promises we made to those people. I would say to the Minister and to the

:19:01.:19:07.

Shadow Minister, do not be taken in that that is a cause of the impasse

:19:08.:19:15.

in these particular talks. We have been told that the issue is Brexit,

:19:16.:19:21.

and I find that very strange, coming from Sinn Fein, because the one

:19:22.:19:29.

party which will not shake the Brexit talks or the Brexit

:19:30.:19:32.

negotiations or the outcome of Brexit decisions in this House, is

:19:33.:19:37.

Sinn Fein, because they do not attend. And yet they want to have a

:19:38.:19:46.

broad coalition against Brexit, and we find no doubt the SDLP, they do

:19:47.:19:51.

involve themselves in a sectarian involve themselves in a sectarian

:19:52.:19:56.

pact with Sinn Fein, so they are trying to progress as a liberal

:19:57.:20:00.

Progressive pact against Brexit, including the Alliance party, the

:20:01.:20:10.

Cleans, themselves against Sinn Fein. Let's make no doubt about it.

:20:11.:20:18.

-- the greens. It is not about changing Brexit by their own

:20:19.:20:24.

definition, it is not about changing Brexit, and yet we have been told

:20:25.:20:28.

that that is another reason why we cannot progress, because the

:20:29.:20:32.

Government is being disrespectful of the vote in Northern Ireland against

:20:33.:20:40.

leaving the EU. I have got to say, the Government has not been

:20:41.:20:44.

disrespectful. In fact, if anything, the Government has worked well with

:20:45.:20:48.

the Administration, and has shown it is prepared to do so, trying to

:20:49.:20:52.

address the unique issues that address the unique issues that

:20:53.:20:55.

Northern Ireland faces, just as they work with the City of London, the

:20:56.:21:00.

motorcar industry and other industries, addressing issues that

:21:01.:21:03.

affect them. Of course there will be different parts of the country which

:21:04.:21:08.

will have different issues, but the whole point is that there should be

:21:09.:21:15.

a method of feeding that in. They will not be able to do that if we do

:21:16.:21:22.

not have devolution. As far as the regional rate is concerned, the

:21:23.:21:25.

Minister is right, we do need to have a decision made on that. It is

:21:26.:21:31.

an important part of Government finance in Northern Ireland, there

:21:32.:21:34.

needs to be certainty. Councils have not sent out bills because we do not

:21:35.:21:42.

have the regional rate established, and therefore it is important that a

:21:43.:21:45.

quick decision is made on that. I would say to the Secretary of State,

:21:46.:21:50.

intervention, he cannot allow the intervention, he cannot allow the

:21:51.:21:56.

budgetary issues to go on and to be delayed, because there is

:21:57.:22:00.

uncertainty. There is uncertainty and apartments, they can only have

:22:01.:22:06.

present, and that of course has a present, and that of course has a

:22:07.:22:11.

knock-on effect, because nobody knows. And even the 90 day notices

:22:12.:22:23.

to some of the suppliers, and community groups, because nobody

:22:24.:22:26.

knows what the full budget is going to be, the precautionary

:22:27.:22:33.

Those that can I just come in closing, make one point that as far

:22:34.:22:43.

as our party concerned, there is no reason that even before this general

:22:44.:22:46.

election campaign starts, that devolution should not be up and

:22:47.:22:51.

running. People were elected to the assembly, when it came to, when it

:22:52.:22:58.

assembly elections were held. They have a mandate to go to the

:22:59.:23:05.

assembly. The starting point for these issues is the debates within

:23:06.:23:11.

the Assembly. And it is only because one party in particular has laid

:23:12.:23:15.

down a list of demands, first of all, they said they wanted the RHI

:23:16.:23:21.

sorted out and until it was, they couldn't work with Arlene Foster.

:23:22.:23:25.

And then they said it was legacy issues which hasn't been dealt with

:23:26.:23:29.

by the Government. And I hope some of their interpretation of those

:23:30.:23:35.

legacy issues, especially around the way in which terrorists will be

:23:36.:23:40.

treated in relation to incidences involve the security forces, which

:23:41.:23:45.

wannabe excepted by this Government. -- which will never be accepted. We

:23:46.:23:53.

agree with me that part of the problem isn't just Sinn Fein will

:23:54.:24:03.

making a series of unreasonable demands, but even before they

:24:04.:24:10.

re-establish the institution, they want the institutions of running on

:24:11.:24:15.

their unreasonable terms. That is exactly the point I was making.

:24:16.:24:21.

These issues cannot be -- can actually be resolved within the

:24:22.:24:30.

assembly. And if you want to know the position we resolve on Brexit,

:24:31.:24:33.

where better to do that than ministers within the Assembly coming

:24:34.:24:38.

together? If you want to sort issues around culture etc, would you do it,

:24:39.:24:43.

with the debates within the Assembly. If you want to deal with

:24:44.:24:48.

the legacy issues, then there is a role for the assembly in that. But

:24:49.:24:52.

these things can be dealt with in the assembly. That is the place to

:24:53.:24:58.

deal with them. Not saying that, unless we get these things sorted

:24:59.:25:01.

out and sorted out on the terms of one party, then we will not have

:25:02.:25:11.

devolution. And this is where I take issue with the former Secretary of

:25:12.:25:14.

State when he says, parish Assembly Members. If you're going to punish

:25:15.:25:21.

people for not doing their job, punish Sinn Fein, who have not this

:25:22.:25:29.

place try for the last ten years. -- they have milked this place try. And

:25:30.:25:37.

secondly, recognise that it is not the intransigence is of Assembly

:25:38.:25:40.

Members generally that have led to this. And thirdly, he should know

:25:41.:25:46.

this, as a public representative, there are many ways in which public

:25:47.:25:50.

representatives do their jobs. Of course there is a role in the body

:25:51.:25:54.

to which they have been elected. But there is also the role they have in

:25:55.:25:58.

relation to their constituents. And I know that the to Assembly Members

:25:59.:26:09.

in male party he were elected -- the members in my own party who were

:26:10.:26:14.

elected. As well as being involved in preparing material for the talks,

:26:15.:26:21.

this idea that somehow or other, they are lying at home watching

:26:22.:26:24.

daytime TV and getting paid for it, he should know better! And so should

:26:25.:26:30.

many of the people who are commenting on it. And if we want to

:26:31.:26:37.

understand the situation, we ought to be asking, is it simply that

:26:38.:26:45.

people are intransigence is because they think we are on a jolly here,

:26:46.:26:49.

and it's great, let's not have the Aseembly of running? I don't know

:26:50.:27:00.

any of my colleagues who do not want to be back in Stormont tomorrow,

:27:01.:27:04.

doing their job, and I believe it is the case that this can be hurried

:27:05.:27:07.

along and pushed along by spelling it out to Sinn Fein that is the

:27:08.:27:13.

consequence of not getting the Assembly upon running is that

:27:14.:27:19.

decisions will be made here. I don't want that to happen, I don't want to

:27:20.:27:23.

direct rule, I don't believe it will be as good for Northern Ireland, I

:27:24.:27:26.

don't believe it is good for this House to have to do that. But on

:27:27.:27:30.

telly stars dressing and rather than using this generic term, the

:27:31.:27:39.

parties, and he knows how difficult they have been, they took umbrage at

:27:40.:27:43.

him and didn't even want him to care talks because of comments he had

:27:44.:27:48.

made about the security forces. That is the kind of arrogance we have had

:27:49.:27:53.

from them. I believe until that arrogant bubble is broken and

:27:54.:27:58.

bursts, we're not going to be able to make any progress in Northern

:27:59.:28:04.

Ireland. Order, we have plenty of time for this debate, but if the

:28:05.:28:08.

honourable gentleman take much more than about 15 minutes each, then we

:28:09.:28:17.

will run out of time and I have a theory, nearly put together from

:28:18.:28:21.

spending many days, hours, weeks, in this chair observing the house, but

:28:22.:28:26.

most things that have to be set can usually be said in 15 minutes. I

:28:27.:28:32.

make no criticism of anyone who has taken longer. I nearly make a plea

:28:33.:28:37.

that that would be a reasonable amount of time to take. Thank you,

:28:38.:28:47.

Madam Deputy Speaker. I join with my colleagues in welcoming the

:28:48.:28:49.

opportunity to take part in this debate will stop did I commend the

:28:50.:28:55.

Secretary of State and his ministerial colleagues for their

:28:56.:29:02.

conduct in the negotiations. They have, at times, been disrespected by

:29:03.:29:05.

at least one of the parties, Sinn Fein, who have said some white nasty

:29:06.:29:11.

things about them. But I know it is not easy to chair the negotiations,

:29:12.:29:17.

particularly when you have some acting unreasonably, so I want to

:29:18.:29:20.

place on record our gratitude for the role that they are playing in

:29:21.:29:25.

trying to bring things together. We do want things to come together. Let

:29:26.:29:31.

me be clear, from this party's prospective, and when you consider

:29:32.:29:33.

where we have come from in Northern Ireland, I think it is quite a

:29:34.:29:40.

workable thing to have the leading Unionist party in Northern Ireland

:29:41.:29:44.

say that they have no preconditions to go into Government with Sinn

:29:45.:29:49.

Fein. -- it is quite a remarkable thing. Turn back the clock if you

:29:50.:29:54.

years and imagine that was the position. That the leading Unionist

:29:55.:29:59.

party would be saying we are prepared to go into Government today

:30:00.:30:02.

with Sinn Fein with no preconditions. And yet, it is Sinn

:30:03.:30:07.

Fein who refuse to form a Government. Ourselves alone, I'm

:30:08.:30:15.

told, is the literal Irish translation for Sinn Fein. The

:30:16.:30:23.

honourable member for Foyle is probably better qualified on that

:30:24.:30:30.

than me. But in terms of that, Sinn Fein seem to be living up to their

:30:31.:30:33.

name, because as far as I conceive, or the other parties in the Assembly

:30:34.:30:40.

are prepared to see a Government formed exception thing. And so, the

:30:41.:30:43.

Government must be aware of that and needs to be aware of that going for

:30:44.:30:47.

words. -- all of the parties except Sinn Fein. In terms of the peace

:30:48.:30:54.

process going forward, I am now with a very serious doubt in my mind

:30:55.:30:58.

about whether Sinn Fein really want to in Government at all. I'm left

:30:59.:31:07.

with a very serious doubt in my mind about the work ability of the

:31:08.:31:10.

editorial coalition model as a basis for Government, giving as it does,

:31:11.:31:17.

Madam Deputy Speaker, Sinn Fein a veto over the formation of a

:31:18.:31:21.

Government. That is where we are coming true. The Government of

:31:22.:31:25.

Northern Ireland is being vetoed, the formation of that Government is

:31:26.:31:29.

being vetoed by one party, who are refusing to go into Government and

:31:30.:31:34.

because the nature of that architecture and the framework for

:31:35.:31:36.

Government in Northern Ireland, they have that veto. And they can

:31:37.:31:41.

exercise that veto and are doing so at present. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:31:42.:31:52.

Speaker, I am grateful to the honourable gentleman for allowing me

:31:53.:31:57.

to intervene. The written statement published by the Secretary of State

:31:58.:31:59.

for Northern Ireland last week indicated there had been some

:32:00.:32:03.

progress amongst the parties, they hadn't been a complete waste of

:32:04.:32:06.

time, so I think it would be hell for for the people of Northern

:32:07.:32:10.

Ireland and indeed this House to understand where the progress as the

:32:11.:32:13.

need and to narrow down the stumbling blocks that are being cast

:32:14.:32:18.

up by Sinn Fein, I think that would be hell for to us. I think the

:32:19.:32:21.

honourable lady for her intervention. I think in truth,

:32:22.:32:29.

Madam Deputy Speaker, some progress has been made in homing in on the

:32:30.:32:37.

issues. It would be wrong to say we have reached agreement on any of the

:32:38.:32:41.

issues. What are those issues? They include the legacy of her troubled

:32:42.:32:48.

past. The quest for justice and truth by the innocent victims. And

:32:49.:32:52.

we have, I think, come a long way in terms of developing proposals, which

:32:53.:32:57.

I understand the Secretary of State is now willing to publish. For

:32:58.:33:03.

consultation in the coming weeks. Something we on the side of the

:33:04.:33:10.

House very much welcome. We do not believe that a failure to form a

:33:11.:33:13.

Government in Northern Ireland should prevent a Government in this

:33:14.:33:18.

place from proceeding with legislation to establish those new

:33:19.:33:23.

legacy bodies, and I would say to the Secretary of State, well Sinn

:33:24.:33:26.

Fein may have a veto over the formation of Government, it would be

:33:27.:33:35.

the ultimate irony if we allowed the party that represents the

:33:36.:33:37.

organisation that word of more people in the troubles than anyone

:33:38.:33:45.

else -- murdered more people in the Troubles than anyone else to veto

:33:46.:33:52.

the institution that help stop those murders, it is absurd that we would

:33:53.:33:57.

consider handing Sinn Fein a veto over the investigation of murders

:33:58.:34:01.

that were committed by the provisional IRA. We need those

:34:02.:34:06.

investigationss up and running to investigate those murders, to level

:34:07.:34:11.

the playing field, and I have said to the minister many times, at the

:34:12.:34:15.

moment, there isn't a level playing field. At the moment, we have legacy

:34:16.:34:22.

requests. At the moment, we have the examination of the events that are

:34:23.:34:28.

known as Bloody Sunday. At the moment, we have a completely

:34:29.:34:30.

disproportionate focus on what the Army and the police did in Northern

:34:31.:34:35.

Ireland, and I echo comments made earlier which are that the killings

:34:36.:34:39.

committed by the army and police were for the most part lawful, and

:34:40.:34:43.

were about protecting life and the community. But of course, were

:34:44.:34:50.

someone has done something wrong, then in the past, Google has

:34:51.:34:55.

investigated this. But it entirely wrong that we have this

:34:56.:35:01.

investigation can't of the PS and I putting so much resources to

:35:02.:35:07.

investigate the police and army and so little to investigate the 90% of

:35:08.:35:13.

murders that were committed by paramilitary terrorist organisations

:35:14.:35:16.

in Northern Ireland, that is not a sustainable position and after this

:35:17.:35:20.

election, trusting excrement will take for this legislation and

:35:21.:35:24.

establish those legacy bodies. -- I trust the next Government will take

:35:25.:35:28.

forward this legislation. Another issue we are awaiting to get

:35:29.:35:34.

agreement on, and I referred to this earlier, is the Armed Forces

:35:35.:35:40.

covenant. Sinn Fein topic on respect and equality. And this is an issue

:35:41.:35:47.

of respect and equality. It is about ensuring the men and women who have

:35:48.:35:51.

served in our country in the Armed Forces are not disadvantaged by

:35:52.:35:55.

virtue of their service, that is the basis, the very basis of the Armed

:35:56.:35:59.

Forces covenant. It is also about the wider community across this

:36:00.:36:04.

nation showing respect for the men and women who served, so that

:36:05.:36:08.

equality and respect is what we are properly about in relation to the

:36:09.:36:12.

Armed Forces, and we need Sinn Fein Armed Forces, and we need Sinn Fein

:36:13.:36:16.

to step up to the mark and for all the political parties in Northern

:36:17.:36:19.

Ireland to agree to the full implementation of the Armed Forces

:36:20.:36:23.

covenant in Northern Ireland as part of the United Kingdom.

:36:24.:36:29.

In the accept that the number of people affected by that Rafa more

:36:30.:36:36.

significant that and some of the other minority groups for whom Sinn

:36:37.:36:40.

Fein are demanding equality and respect? I did intervene on the

:36:41.:36:44.

Shadow Secretary of State to make that very point, but while he was

:36:45.:36:49.

busy listing all of the groups that he says he has met, who are

:36:50.:36:54.

demanding rights and equality, the one group that he missed out in his

:36:55.:37:02.

remarks were 150,000, I will repeat that figure, 150,000 men and women

:37:03.:37:06.

in Northern Ireland who have served in our Armed Forces. Far greater

:37:07.:37:12.

that by far than the number of people who speak the Irish language

:37:13.:37:19.

far greater by far than any other minority group that the Shadow

:37:20.:37:21.

Secretary of State bothered to mention, and are those 150,000

:37:22.:37:28.

people, when you add to the fact that the Armed Forces Covenant also

:37:29.:37:32.

covers their families, the figure is half a million people. -- 500,000

:37:33.:37:35.

people. That is not my figure, it people. That is not my figure, it

:37:36.:37:38.

comes from the Northern Ireland comes from the Northern Ireland

:37:39.:37:43.

Office's statistics. Over 500,000 people in a population of 1.8

:37:44.:37:47.

million people would benefit, and it would be nice to hear the Shadow

:37:48.:37:50.

Secretary of State and his colleagues, for once saying, yes,

:37:51.:37:55.

this is something we would want to see included, and I sincerely hope

:37:56.:37:59.

that the outcome of the negotiations will be that all parties sign up to

:38:00.:38:03.

the mentation of the Armed Forces the mentation of the Armed Forces

:38:04.:38:07.

Covenant in Northern Ireland, if they are genuine about respect and

:38:08.:38:08.

equality. Does he forgive with me -- equality. Does he forgive with me --

:38:09.:38:24.

agree with me that the Sinn Fein Secretary of State cut the budget by

:38:25.:38:30.

?700,000 for the last three financial years, yet they claim that

:38:31.:38:36.

we do not show respect? They could not even find enough alias to spend

:38:37.:38:42.

the money on. The honourable member's contribution stands on its

:38:43.:38:50.

own feet. I wonder if the honourable member would give his feelings on

:38:51.:38:55.

the update with the military discussions, because the party that

:38:56.:38:58.

we have all have been talking about to this debate, all they wanted was

:38:59.:39:08.

equality to try to agree with our soldiers is an absolute disgrace. I

:39:09.:39:12.

thank the honourable member for present invention, and on this

:39:13.:39:17.

issue, our two parties agree, and we spoke with one voice in the working

:39:18.:39:23.

groups dealing with the Armed Forces, because we believe

:39:24.:39:25.

passionately that this issue must be addressed in the context of

:39:26.:39:31.

Stormont's responsibilities to a large group within our community,

:39:32.:39:37.

and I mean our community and its talented, because of course, the

:39:38.:39:40.

Armed Forces draw from all sections of the community in Northern

:39:41.:39:47.

Ireland, and that is something we are grateful for. I just want to

:39:48.:39:53.

echo the comments that were made by the honourable member for East

:39:54.:39:59.

Antrim about Brexit. I find it quite remarkable that we hear some of the

:40:00.:40:04.

parties talking about the need for a special status for Northern Ireland

:40:05.:40:07.

when it comes to Brexit, and yet Sinn Fein are refusing to form a

:40:08.:40:13.

Government in Northern Ireland, which is the one vehicle that can

:40:14.:40:18.

help to develop a consensus around how we deal with Brexit will stop I

:40:19.:40:23.

want to say to the Secretary of State that, if we do arrive at a

:40:24.:40:30.

situation where there is direct rule, and we do not have a

:40:31.:40:33.

Government functioning in Northern Ireland, what will be unacceptable

:40:34.:40:40.

is if the Government then seeks to pander to those voices that are

:40:41.:40:46.

demanding a special status in the absence of a consensus, a political

:40:47.:40:49.

consensus, around that issue in Northern Ireland. It is not good

:40:50.:40:53.

enough to hand Sinn Fein a veto over forming a Government, and then to

:40:54.:40:58.

say that parties would be excluded in the decision-making process

:40:59.:41:07.

around what happens with Brexit. And therefore the SDLP, Alliance party

:41:08.:41:10.

and Sinn Fein can gang up on the DUP all they want on this issue, but

:41:11.:41:16.

returned to direct rule, and there is no Government in Northern

:41:17.:41:19.

Ireland, we are not going to stand and allow some special status

:41:20.:41:25.

against the people of Northern Ireland and the wishes of the

:41:26.:41:29.

unionist community, it has to be a cross community consensus on this.

:41:30.:41:32.

Nothing else is going to work in the absence of devolution, so Sinn Fein

:41:33.:41:38.

and the SDLP and the Green Party and the lines Party won special status

:41:39.:41:41.

for Northern Ireland, there is only one way that that will be delivered,

:41:42.:41:47.

and that is by having a devolved Government. In the absence of that,

:41:48.:41:54.

Sinn Fein can forget it. They can protest and dress up as funny little

:41:55.:41:57.

customs men, pretending we will have a hard border, but that will not

:41:58.:42:04.

wash with Brussels. The only thing that will deliver for Northern

:42:05.:42:09.

Ireland as either we have our own Government, or we will be the voice

:42:10.:42:11.

for Northern Ireland here in this chamber, and I fully expect a strong

:42:12.:42:18.

DUP team to be returned after the general election to speak for

:42:19.:42:23.

Northern Ireland in this house. I would like to say again to the

:42:24.:42:29.

Secretary of State, part of this is about the budget, and I would ask

:42:30.:42:32.

the Secretary of State or the the Secretary of State or the

:42:33.:42:35.

minister, in binding up, on the budget, will be budget continued to

:42:36.:42:48.

in continue to include... ?SPACE There are a lot of vulnerable people

:42:49.:42:51.

in Northern Ireland who would like to know, and we need to expose Sinn

:42:52.:42:59.

Fein on this, because the fact that this House is set in the budget, or

:43:00.:43:03.

at least providing funding for public services in Northern Ireland,

:43:04.:43:09.

it is and portents to know about the mitigation measures on welfare

:43:10.:43:11.

reform will be included in that, and for how long. The final thing is,

:43:12.:43:19.

Madam Deputy Speaker, I think that what this current crisis proves is

:43:20.:43:24.

that mandatory coalition, handing a veto to one side of the community in

:43:25.:43:29.

Northern Ireland, is a fundamentally flawed way of democratising

:43:30.:43:37.

Government. And we wanted to see, it has long been an objective of our

:43:38.:43:42.

party, that we moved towards a system of voluntary coalition in

:43:43.:43:44.

Northern Ireland, that we move towards a situation where after an

:43:45.:43:50.

election, the parties come together, negotiate, and agree a programme for

:43:51.:44:00.

Government. Those parties want to go into Government, and those parties

:44:01.:44:03.

who do not go into opposition. What we cannot sustain a situation where

:44:04.:44:09.

those parties who do not want to go into Government have a beetle over

:44:10.:44:13.

everybody else in forming a Government. That is not democracy,

:44:14.:44:16.

that is the very antithesis of democracy. I am grateful for the

:44:17.:44:24.

right honourable gentleman taking another intervention. The right

:44:25.:44:29.

honourable gentleman will recall that the Belfast agreement actually

:44:30.:44:36.

suggested that this was approved by referendum in Northern Ireland that

:44:37.:44:40.

the Deputy First Minister 's would be jointly elected. That was

:44:41.:44:43.

unfortunately changed after the St Andrews Agreement. To put the two

:44:44.:44:50.

names on the same ticket, and people have to vote for those two names, is

:44:51.:44:58.

that an option that the DUP would consider? We will certainly look at

:44:59.:45:03.

options, but I have to say to the honourable lady, that that does not

:45:04.:45:07.

solve the problem. I think if we are going to look at solving the

:45:08.:45:12.

problem, we have got to be more fundamental about it. A sticking

:45:13.:45:18.

plaster will not do. That is finally believe that in time, we have to

:45:19.:45:21.

look again at the whole of devolution. We have to look at and

:45:22.:45:27.

Italy coalition and whether that is going to work, and it is certainly

:45:28.:45:31.

not working at Northern Ireland at the moment. -- coalition. We have

:45:32.:45:37.

huge decisions to take about our future, not least on the Brexit. The

:45:38.:45:42.

people of Northern Ireland are being denied that voice because one single

:45:43.:45:47.

party representing less than 30% of the vote, is refusing to go into

:45:48.:45:53.

Government. Surely, Madam Deputy Speaker, that is an unsustainable

:45:54.:45:58.

position. Whilst this legislation is open today, it is a first step,

:45:59.:46:04.

merely a bandage. It will not fix the problem, and we do need to fix

:46:05.:46:14.

the problem. In following the right honourable member for East Antrim,

:46:15.:46:17.

it struck me that the number of times that he condemned Sinn Fein

:46:18.:46:22.

for using a beetle, this coming from the DUP, the most vito-holic of all

:46:23.:46:36.

the parties we have seen. Let me first of all joined with others in

:46:37.:46:47.

referring to the grave attack at the weekend, the attempt to murder

:46:48.:46:51.

police officers, to use the precincts of a school to create

:46:52.:46:56.

disruption in a community and set up a situation where yet again, so

:46:57.:47:01.

police officers in Northern Ireland were going to be under threat. But I

:47:02.:47:10.

cannot join in the honourable member for East Antrim's attack on the

:47:11.:47:13.

BBC's first somehow making up untoward reference in relation to

:47:14.:47:19.

this, because he seems to admit that his own colleague, the honourable

:47:20.:47:22.

member for East Belfast yesterday, in a debate on the BBC that I was

:47:23.:47:26.

part of myself, made reference to that attack in the context of the

:47:27.:47:30.

political vacuum that exists and could continue to exist, which was

:47:31.:47:35.

made by a member of his own party, one of his own parliamentary

:47:36.:47:40.

colleagues, so to turn around and use this as yet another excuse

:47:41.:47:45.

brands have yet another goal at the BBC, just seems bizarre and out of

:47:46.:47:54.

place. -- yet another goal. -- yet another go. The SDLP and Sinn Fein

:47:55.:48:04.

joined together to stop Jerry Kelly from being suspended from the

:48:05.:48:09.

Assembly for five days. I believe the biggest abuse of the petition

:48:10.:48:15.

concerned comes whenever it is used for instance, to stop motions in the

:48:16.:48:19.

Assembly having any standing whatsoever, even non-binding motion.

:48:20.:48:29.

If people are going to use petitions of concern about motions of censure

:48:30.:48:34.

in one way, they cannot, they should recognise that people are going to

:48:35.:48:37.

say, if you're going to veto it, you are creating those rules, and

:48:38.:48:42.

therefore you will have to live by it. They need to return -- will be

:48:43.:48:50.

need to return to what was originally agreed in the Good Friday

:48:51.:48:56.

Agreement. It was provided as a trigger mechanism for an additional

:48:57.:49:04.

form by a special committee for concerns to rights and equality.

:49:05.:49:09.

That is all the petition of concern was provided for. Unfortunately, the

:49:10.:49:12.

legislation did not properly reflect that, and left it up to Standing

:49:13.:49:20.

Orders in the Assembly. The SDLP and the DUP have always been happy to

:49:21.:49:24.

read it as a dead end veto, which is never what was actually in the

:49:25.:49:30.

agreement, if people actually care to read the relevant paragraphs of

:49:31.:49:39.

the Agreement itself. It is not a prevention mechanism against the

:49:40.:49:43.

advancement of rights and equality, such as questions of equal marriage.

:49:44.:49:47.

I heard the honourable member for East Antrim attack another member of

:49:48.:49:56.

this House, saying that devolution is the opportunity to best make the

:49:57.:50:04.

laws that reflect the views of the society, and I quite agree with

:50:05.:50:08.

this. I am quite happy for the Assembly to make the laws that apply

:50:09.:50:12.

to equal marriage. The problem is that the Assembly is showing a clear

:50:13.:50:22.

contempt they are, similar to those in the South of Ireland, as shown by

:50:23.:50:28.

referendum, it is the DUP larvae to vetoing the devolved Assembly have

:50:29.:50:30.

that very legislative power. Jiri have the DUP criticising Sinn Fein

:50:31.:50:35.

for not allowing the Government function to be created where they

:50:36.:50:42.

are preventing the legislative function of the assembly. Who's veto

:50:43.:50:45.

trumps who's in this situation? The only man -- honourable member

:50:46.:50:59.

argued for a power-sharing and now is in favour of majority rule?

:51:00.:51:05.

That'll go down very well with his constituents. This member is

:51:06.:51:11.

entirely happy with operating the Good Friday Agreement as the people.

:51:12.:51:18.

Four. -- as the people voted for. If there were not concerns in relation

:51:19.:51:25.

to rights and equality, it could proceed in the normal way to the

:51:26.:51:31.

community. I make no apology for my part in negotiating in drafting the

:51:32.:51:37.

Good Friday Agreement, I regret that we had departed from it in so many

:51:38.:51:41.

ways. And of course, the honourable lady for not made the point in

:51:42.:51:46.

relation to the appointment of First Minister and Deputy First Minister,

:51:47.:51:52.

when I was a to the honour among member for aligning belly, is we

:51:53.:51:58.

need to get to a different way, there shouldn't be a situation where

:51:59.:52:02.

one party can veto, remember it was the St Andrews agreement are

:52:03.:52:06.

privatised the offices of First Minister and step at a first list

:52:07.:52:08.

are tricky part is, it specified which party, the biggest party of

:52:09.:52:17.

one that designation would appoint the First Minister and the biggest

:52:18.:52:20.

party of another designation would appoint the deputy first. The Good

:52:21.:52:31.

Friday Agreement provided for a free choice and the election of the First

:52:32.:52:34.

Minister. If the honourable members in any way serious, the next time we

:52:35.:52:38.

are tabling amendments in terms of telling how the first list as deputy

:52:39.:52:44.

first are appointed, he should be us in supporting the amendments, not

:52:45.:52:49.

opposing them. I did check with the clerks in relation to this bill as

:52:50.:52:55.

to whether not the relation to ministerial appointment and allow us

:52:56.:52:58.

to table such an amendment, and was told the narrow terms of the bill

:52:59.:53:00.

would not allow me to table that amendment, which I have table

:53:01.:53:05.

previously in the past. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is the regional

:53:06.:53:12.

rates bill, no doubt the way acronyms are used in this place it

:53:13.:53:17.

will be called the marble, but there's nothing memorial about this

:53:18.:53:22.

bill. It is purely making exigency provisions in terms of setting

:53:23.:53:25.

regional rate so that rates can be issued and candles can get their

:53:26.:53:29.

paper out of the district rate, and I are great that the bill is

:53:30.:53:32.

necessary, it has been necessary to bring it forward in this house, but

:53:33.:53:37.

in terms of allowing the revenue to come in to support public services,

:53:38.:53:41.

both those run by the consuls and those provided by the regional,

:53:42.:53:47.

departments, I support the bill in these terms. It is a fair bill as

:53:48.:53:52.

well in terms of resetting the meter, in terms of the appointment

:53:53.:53:58.

of ministers. I note that the Secretary of State has chosen a

:53:59.:54:02.

timeline that were broadly equate to what time and under the legislation

:54:03.:54:07.

would be if there was an Assembly election on the same day as the

:54:08.:54:12.

general. So those who have argued for an Assembly election on the same

:54:13.:54:15.

big can have no objection to that particular timeline. There is

:54:16.:54:20.

another coincidence in times of the timeline, we heard members referring

:54:21.:54:26.

to the budget pressures that are there, and the fact that the civil

:54:27.:54:29.

service are now having to assign the budget, or assign a percentage of

:54:30.:54:35.

the budget, in the absence of an elected Government in the Assembly,

:54:36.:54:39.

of course, the indication they might have been to all groups and budget

:54:40.:54:46.

holders, including community and voluntary sector but not only them,

:54:47.:54:49.

that their budget is guaranteed as it was for the first 13 weeks of the

:54:50.:54:56.

financial year and that'll bring us within a calendar week of the same

:54:57.:55:01.

deadline that we have. And that should concentrate minds, I hope it

:55:02.:55:04.

would concentrate minds about what the consequenceswould be about the

:55:05.:55:16.

absence of institutions. Will he accept that if there is no progress

:55:17.:55:20.

in the timescale that is being set in the legislation today, the

:55:21.:55:26.

Executive does need to bring further legislation to resolve these issues,

:55:27.:55:29.

as we cannot keep going through the financial crisis that the Department

:55:30.:55:33.

are currently in. What we have to do is use the time that was created

:55:34.:55:38.

here now. We also have to use such goodwill as any of us were able to

:55:39.:55:42.

detect in the talks in Stormont Castle over the past number of

:55:43.:55:47.

weeks. I, certainly, wouldn't come to the personal conclusion that one

:55:48.:55:52.

party is determined to prevent the formation of a Government

:55:53.:55:55.

altogether. I wish I had more evidence that I could point to to

:55:56.:56:01.

support my hunch that Sinn Fein would want to see the formation of a

:56:02.:56:08.

Government. It would be better if Sinn Fein would save more public to

:56:09.:56:11.

give people reason to believe that. Going back to the debate by

:56:12.:56:14.

departing on the BBC yesterday, I was struck by the fact that Chris

:56:15.:56:18.

Hazzard of Sinn Fein in relation to Brexit, talked about the fact that

:56:19.:56:21.

Sinn Fein would have a powerful position in relation to Brexit

:56:22.:56:25.

because of having four MPs and because of the fact that Dublin

:56:26.:56:29.

would have a say as a member state. He paid no premium on the decisions

:56:30.:56:34.

of the Assembly itself. He did not say that the important thing that

:56:35.:56:37.

would help us to offset some of the challenges of Brexit is if we have

:56:38.:56:40.

our own devolved Government and if that devolved Government is part of

:56:41.:56:45.

using and activating the Strand to structures which are the best way of

:56:46.:56:52.

things being done on a Northern Ireland bases, relevant sector is

:56:53.:56:57.

being treated as an island market, and that the relevant when it comes

:56:58.:57:00.

to you construct some programmes and funding as well. As has been

:57:01.:57:04.

indicated, there was none of that whatsoever from Sinn Fein, so I can

:57:05.:57:09.

see how people are worried that with what Sinn Fein are saying about

:57:10.:57:12.

Brexit, where the institutions of the Good Friday Agreement? Of

:57:13.:57:16.

course, Strand one would be pretty central to making does work, because

:57:17.:57:20.

as we know, Strand to can't be activated, unless we have Northern

:57:21.:57:27.

ministers in a Northern Executive. So it is imperative that we get our

:57:28.:57:31.

institutions up and running and a failure to do so means that we are

:57:32.:57:39.

then sentence to the car Brexit that people are complaining about

:57:40.:57:42.

Thunderbird about, but also a hard Brexit in the absence of any

:57:43.:57:51.

devolved, any north-south access that can be used there. Including

:57:52.:57:55.

the Northern Ireland Government. Member, Strand two of the Northern

:57:56.:58:00.

Ireland 's -- of the Good Friday Agreement allows that Northern

:58:01.:58:05.

Ireland will be involved in any EU meetings, so it gives the Irish room

:58:06.:58:09.

at a potential powerful role but I notice when Chris Hazzard was

:58:10.:58:12.

referring to the Irish Government's, no reference to the fact that they

:58:13.:58:16.

would be fighting the views of the north-south ministerial Council in

:58:17.:58:21.

EU meetings. That might be the reflecting the views of... I accept

:58:22.:58:31.

what the honourable member for the centre and said in religion to the

:58:32.:58:39.

RHI. -- said in relation to the rich eye. The DUP were seething at any

:58:40.:58:46.

suggestion that came from my colleague in Southdown or any of the

:58:47.:58:54.

Unionist party members as well, the DUP broken that the opposed to an

:58:55.:59:03.

enquiry, we made it clear that the committee was sufficient, there is

:59:04.:59:05.

no need for any other enquiry, and of course, we had Sinn Fein on board

:59:06.:59:10.

with that for a while as well. But things fell apart with them. Member,

:59:11.:59:15.

one we hear the member free stand from question, and I would question

:59:16.:59:22.

to, why was there no budget, where is there no sign of what the

:59:23.:59:25.

devolved budget would have been? Back in the 21st of November, we had

:59:26.:59:34.

DUP and Sinn Fein issuing joint articles, no gimmicks, no

:59:35.:59:38.

grandstanding, and we had no sign of a draft budget coming. The DUP were

:59:39.:59:41.

happy to say that it was good Government not to have a draft

:59:42.:59:44.

budget at that stage, we now at a point where we should have had the

:59:45.:59:53.

budget. The Mills and Boon version of lovely Government that we are

:59:54.:59:57.

being given by Sinn Fein and the DUP back in November, but then the

:59:58.:00:04.

wheels started to come off and the pressure around the RHI issue and

:00:05.:00:14.

remember, what was the root cause of the arguments around the RHI

:00:15.:00:18.

scandal? The root cause was that the DUP felt that they had to account,

:00:19.:00:27.

not to the Assembly, that they were appointed entirely according to

:00:28.:00:29.

their own mandate, we are Arlene Foster said that she had a mandate

:00:30.:00:33.

from the people of Northern Ireland. The DUP's mandate was no greater

:00:34.:00:38.

than the mandate that the Labour Party got in Great Britain, and yet,

:00:39.:00:44.

we were being told by Arlene Foster that she had a mandate from the

:00:45.:00:47.

people of Northern Ireland which meant she could ignore the mandate

:00:48.:00:50.

everyone else had in the assembler, because you were appointed, because,

:00:51.:00:56.

unlike what was provided for in the Good Friday Agreement, she was

:00:57.:00:59.

appointed in the Assembly, she had no accountability in the Assembly

:01:00.:01:02.

which is widely DUP made clear that they would veto any motion the

:01:03.:01:05.

assembled pass in relation to the RHI, and of course, that's what they

:01:06.:01:11.

did. And so they ignored not just what should have been the proper

:01:12.:01:16.

authority and their accountability to the Assembly about, they also

:01:17.:01:24.

broke the new Chila take and I'm responsible -- neutrality and joint

:01:25.:01:27.

response below to that were supposed to be there and made it very

:01:28.:01:31.

difficult for Martin McGuinness to continue as though no other strains

:01:32.:01:35.

are present in existence. -- the mutuality. Honourable members have

:01:36.:01:47.

also touched on legacy issues, unfortunately, given the advice on

:01:48.:01:50.

time, I would be able to go into some of the legacy points, but I do

:01:51.:01:55.

I know is the fact that the honourable member for Blaydon

:01:56.:01:59.

referred to a case that happened in my constituency. I would also make

:02:00.:02:04.

the point that some of the honourable members opposite have

:02:05.:02:10.

raised concerns about former officers being pursued in relation

:02:11.:02:13.

to former cases, I would make the point that a lot of these previous

:02:14.:02:17.

cases being presented here as though people are being perceived for

:02:18.:02:21.

prosecutions, have actually been in relation to inquests about

:02:22.:02:24.

controversial deaths and the new inquests have actually shown that

:02:25.:02:29.

the people who were killed that were previously reported as having been

:02:30.:02:32.

terrorists or conmen were not, therefore that they're killing was

:02:33.:02:37.

wrong. So it is entirely the judgment that legacy issues should

:02:38.:02:41.

be preserved. -- reported as having been terrorists or gunmen. And this

:02:42.:02:49.

House has been given false account of those deaths, so it is entirely

:02:50.:02:52.

proper that those deaths should be pursued. Also English and to the

:02:53.:02:57.

legacy, I would make the point that -- in relation to the legacy, while

:02:58.:03:08.

there has been limited agreement, notwithstanding the disagreement

:03:09.:03:10.

around national security questions, as far as the STL PR concern, we

:03:11.:03:17.

want to seek more architecture involution to legacy issues, because

:03:18.:03:24.

at the moment there are the individual reports in relation to

:03:25.:03:30.

individual cases, not joining the dots between them. Also, there are

:03:31.:03:40.

many other legacies of victimhood of the Troubles that I'd just in

:03:41.:03:46.

relation to killings, -- aren't just in relation to killings, and many

:03:47.:03:49.

questions that people have in relation to the pattern of violence,

:03:50.:03:57.

people want to see examined and tested, and I think that is what we

:03:58.:04:04.

give a more equal assessment in relation to the past. And we will

:04:05.:04:10.

look at these proposals -- we looked at these proposals when we had

:04:11.:04:16.

talks, there are particular ideas are wrong is wrong approach around

:04:17.:04:23.

the Mattocks, which would have reflected... It window may have

:04:24.:04:27.

reflected state breaches, it would have been very open and wide and the

:04:28.:04:32.

Rand responsive. I'd do think we need to get back to those sorts of

:04:33.:04:40.

arrangements in respect of the past. In relation to other issues such as

:04:41.:04:48.

the Irish Glenwood Act, we do need to make progress their -- Irish

:04:49.:04:57.

Language, Act, and back at the time of this and Andrews agreement, we

:04:58.:04:59.

had a pledge from the British Government that it would legislate

:05:00.:05:05.

for an Irishman would act, but the only commitment on the part of the

:05:06.:05:10.

parties was for a Irish language strategy. There were ambiguities and

:05:11.:05:13.

contradictions built in there. Some of us sought clarity is at the time,

:05:14.:05:17.

Sam was pointed out at the time that Sinn Fein were saying that there be

:05:18.:05:28.

an Irish Mind Would Act in the Assembly, and some of us would crowd

:05:29.:05:32.

for pointing out the truth of the situation. But whatever the problems

:05:33.:05:37.

involution to the Irish Language Act, whatever the issues in relation

:05:38.:05:41.

to how things are taken for, we need to remember that Brexit is the

:05:42.:05:45.

biggest issue facing us all. Wheels need to remember that if we want to

:05:46.:05:51.

that at other factors that helped to bring about the discolouration in

:05:52.:05:55.

the politics around our institution, the fact it was Brexit. Brexit have

:05:56.:06:01.

made a much bigger difference to the political analyst in Northern

:06:02.:06:03.

Ireland and people in these benches care to admit.

:06:04.:06:09.

The honourable member turns to the issue of Brexit, which he says is

:06:10.:06:16.

the most fundamental. Will he take any comfort from the fact that the

:06:17.:06:22.

British Government has ruled out a hard border, the Irish Government

:06:23.:06:26.

has ruled out a hard border, and the even you has ruled out a hard

:06:27.:06:29.

border? Does he accept there will not be one? I accept that all of the

:06:30.:06:37.

people the honourable member has called it has given that indication.

:06:38.:06:42.

What they have not said is how it will be done. The Prime Minister has

:06:43.:06:47.

also been careful to say is it will be, as extraction was as and

:06:48.:06:50.

seamless as possible. No return to the hard borders of the past. -- as

:06:51.:06:56.

frictionless and seamless. The best way of preventing hard borders in

:06:57.:07:02.

the future is to properly use the machinery of the Good Friday

:07:03.:07:05.

Agreement, which allows for areas of cooperation and joint and

:07:06.:07:10.

COMMENTATOR on, and allows us to say that there should be concerted

:07:11.:07:17.

action on a north-south basis. Given the EU's historic position, that

:07:18.:07:22.

should be accurately reflected, and of the British Government is serious

:07:23.:07:27.

about honouring the Good Friday Agreement, they should be serious

:07:28.:07:31.

about honouring the Good Friday Agreement as well. We didn't have to

:07:32.:07:35.

negotiate a new special status for Northern Ireland. We have to say

:07:36.:07:39.

that we have the full optimisation of the Good Friday Agreement in the

:07:40.:07:46.

context of any Brexit, so that we use the East-West structures of the

:07:47.:07:52.

Agreement as well, not least the British, Irish inter-governmental

:07:53.:07:56.

discussions. It can address all of the non-devolved issues that the two

:07:57.:08:02.

governments have in common, and all ministers can be involved on the

:08:03.:08:06.

devolved matters, which I believe would be a much more attractive

:08:07.:08:12.

facility to devolved ministers than even European negotiations, because

:08:13.:08:15.

the common expedient of all devolved administrations is that they find

:08:16.:08:21.

that confusing and belittling. Using the structures and mechanisms of the

:08:22.:08:24.

Good Friday Agreement would give us the best answer to Brexit, but we

:08:25.:08:28.

will not do that unless we use the additional time given in this Bill

:08:29.:08:34.

in an Assembly that was elected on the 2nd of March. I usually get

:08:35.:08:48.

called at the end! Today I am somewhere in the middle. It is

:08:49.:08:52.

always a pleasure to speak on any issue in this House. First of all, I

:08:53.:09:00.

congratulate the Secretary of State on the mentation of measures in this

:09:01.:09:05.

Bill. This is not where we want to be, but we are committed to the

:09:06.:09:09.

Northern Ireland Assembly and to the democratic process. This Bill today

:09:10.:09:15.

gives us all an opportunity, perhaps, to make a contribution to

:09:16.:09:18.

it. There have been some very valuable contributions so far. We

:09:19.:09:27.

had a functioning executive that was more than fit to handle this issue,

:09:28.:09:32.

and to bring Northern Ireland into a prosperous economy. I would like to

:09:33.:09:37.

talk in the short times I have on the positives of the Northern

:09:38.:09:39.

Ireland Assembly and what they have done, and what they can deliver.

:09:40.:09:44.

When you look at the stats and the figures that we have, they are quite

:09:45.:09:47.

incredible. Northern Ireland has seen its unemployment rate drop, and

:09:48.:09:57.

my own constituency has seen a drop of 5.3%, approximately down to 3.5%

:09:58.:10:05.

for unemployment claimants. This has been achieved by the Democratic

:10:06.:10:07.

Unionist Party being in Government in Northern Ireland and making it

:10:08.:10:10.

work, getting their business done. That is what we do, we get the

:10:11.:10:17.

business done. We supported the promotion of over 40,000 jobs,

:10:18.:10:26.

beating the target of 20 5000. Positives that can happen when you

:10:27.:10:29.

have a good Assembly that works together and you have parties that

:10:30.:10:34.

are committed, not a one party that is stopping the whole process. We

:10:35.:10:39.

have had ?585 million on research and development, almost double the

:10:40.:10:47.

target of ?300 million, and 72% of new jobs have been in the Northern

:10:48.:10:52.

Ireland public sector. That gives some indication of what can happen

:10:53.:10:56.

when the Northern Ireland Assembly is working. It delivered, and it did

:10:57.:11:00.

so at the highest level, with figures way beyond the comprehension

:11:01.:11:05.

of many. We took control when we had control of the air passenger duty on

:11:06.:11:10.

the long haul flights. That was taken from us by Europe, but we are

:11:11.:11:18.

now going to wake the dust off her coat in relation to Europe, and with

:11:19.:11:23.

men may have a working Assembly, we can put ourselves on the market

:11:24.:11:26.

again for a long haul flights. These are some of the things we can do.

:11:27.:11:30.

Northern Ireland has also had more than 1 million visitors in the last

:11:31.:11:39.

three years, with two dozen spending ratings ?752 million in 2014,

:11:40.:11:44.

increasing each year since then. 80 cruise ships and an estimated

:11:45.:11:49.

145,000 guests came to Northern Ireland in 2016, and this year, the

:11:50.:11:54.

figures show even more growth in that sector. Again, this happens

:11:55.:11:56.

when you have a working Assembly with parties who are committed to

:11:57.:12:08.

it. The DUP continued its policy, ensuring that tens of millions of

:12:09.:12:12.

pounds have been saved by local businesses, protecting the small

:12:13.:12:18.

business rates release scheme, which has benefited many small businesses

:12:19.:12:23.

across Ireland. Again, this party did that, by approximately ?80

:12:24.:12:32.

million per year. This resulted in reduced rates bills for many

:12:33.:12:37.

businesses, and 525 new businesses have benefited from the introduction

:12:38.:12:44.

in 2012, when the Assembly was working, it's delivered. When it was

:12:45.:12:47.

operational, it could bring success to the people of Northern Ireland.

:12:48.:12:52.

This party was committed to that, and we still are, and we are looking

:12:53.:12:54.

for other parties to make their contribution. For years, business

:12:55.:13:01.

organisations wanted to devolved corporation tax. It has been

:13:02.:13:03.

described as a potential game changer for our economy will stop

:13:04.:13:08.

other parties were not sure what to do, and give up on achieving it,

:13:09.:13:16.

while the DUP persisted. We have no lord the tax to a rate of 12.5%.

:13:17.:13:22.

Now, there is a? Over that because of Sinn Fein, if the Assembly was

:13:23.:13:30.

back and working, we could deliver that and create more jobs, this will

:13:31.:13:37.

build on the strength of our workforce. It makes Northern Ireland

:13:38.:13:41.

and attractive investment opportunity. When the executive was

:13:42.:13:45.

up and running, it could deliver, and it should still, and it can.

:13:46.:13:52.

This does not read like a non-functioning executive. This has

:13:53.:13:59.

been brought down by those who had political aspirations to be in

:14:00.:14:03.

control and to push a political point. Everybody who has spoken

:14:04.:14:09.

today has given their opinion on political points that Sinn Fein have

:14:10.:14:14.

pushed hard on, and they have been very eloquent. It was brought down

:14:15.:14:18.

by those who do not have representatives in this House to

:14:19.:14:22.

fight for Northern Ireland, who never set on these green benches,

:14:23.:14:26.

who never make a decision based on the people for Northern Ireland who

:14:27.:14:30.

have elected them. They are going to go into a new election to try to

:14:31.:14:34.

determine the body cure, it is hard to believe how this can be. -- to

:14:35.:14:42.

return nobody here. I will be standing, and my party will be

:14:43.:14:45.

standing in this forthcoming election, as a party who worked hard

:14:46.:14:49.

on the ground for our constituents. We work hard in this place, as the

:14:50.:14:55.

figures and the stats will show, for our constituencies, and we work hard

:14:56.:14:59.

with my party and with the DUP for our party and for our people. We are

:15:00.:15:04.

left in a situation where the Secretary of State has to step in,

:15:05.:15:07.

and I am thankful that he has been willing to do this. This is not what

:15:08.:15:11.

we want, and not what the people of Northern Ireland deserve. Just a few

:15:12.:15:18.

weeks ago, a member who has just left the chamber had a meeting with

:15:19.:15:23.

the education authority chief executive, and we were pressing for

:15:24.:15:28.

some funds for the outdoor sectors. At that meeting, which was very

:15:29.:15:33.

constructive, with the chief Executive indicating that even

:15:34.:15:36.

without the budget, they were ?73 million short this year. That is

:15:37.:15:42.

what they are short without the Assembly functioning, what are going

:15:43.:15:48.

to do when it continues? Does he recognise that even if the Secretary

:15:49.:15:55.

of State did take the powers to take over all budgetary issues, that the

:15:56.:15:59.

pattern of spend has been established in previous years of the

:16:00.:16:05.

Assembly, and that any new initiatives can not be fermented,

:16:06.:16:11.

simply because the power would be simply to disperse the funds on the

:16:12.:16:15.

same basis as they were in the past, even though there may now be

:16:16.:16:20.

different priorities, and even taking over budgetary powers is not

:16:21.:16:26.

going to resolve the problem? My honourable friend and colleague for

:16:27.:16:29.

East Antrim is absolutely right, but we cannot address the issues because

:16:30.:16:34.

we do not have an Assembly that is working together. If we had that, we

:16:35.:16:38.

could at least make some decisions, but we need those committed to the

:16:39.:16:44.

finance minister to bring a budget forward, as others have indicated,

:16:45.:16:47.

and it is very frustrating to be in this position. The Shadow minister

:16:48.:16:56.

in this House spoke about, he gave one example that my colleague for a

:16:57.:16:59.

North Antrim referred to, but he did not give any examples of those from

:17:00.:17:05.

the Unionist tradition. I'm disappointed, because I do look upon

:17:06.:17:08.

him as a friend and I wish them well in his retirement, but he could have

:17:09.:17:16.

mentioned Bloody Friday, when bombs blew people to bits. He could have

:17:17.:17:24.

mentioned those things as something for the Unionist community. He could

:17:25.:17:32.

also mention the IRA murdering and killing innocent people on a night

:17:33.:17:37.

out. He could have mentioned the restaurant where people were

:17:38.:17:42.

murdered just having a meal. These are examples that are Unionist

:17:43.:17:44.

community wants to know where the enquiries are. I will accept that

:17:45.:17:50.

this is of course a pattern that we see from the Labour Party, and

:17:51.:17:55.

especially the Labour Party under Jeremy Corbyn, who has even refused

:17:56.:18:07.

to acknowledge requests... The leader of the Labour Party, or the

:18:08.:18:14.

member for Islington North? This is a pattern that has been established

:18:15.:18:19.

under the leadership of the member for Islington North, whose has

:18:20.:18:26.

refused to knowledge letters from a man whose son was killed. I am happy

:18:27.:18:36.

to give way. I would like to make it very clear that I made the specific

:18:37.:18:41.

point about the case I raised because it was the length of time

:18:42.:18:46.

that that had happened. It was to say to people in Northern Ireland

:18:47.:18:51.

and in this House, we have had 48 years to get the legacy thing put

:18:52.:18:56.

right. It was not about saying, and the gentleman has just spoken about

:18:57.:19:00.

at least five or six other things, that I fully agree could have been

:19:01.:19:05.

mentioned. It is unreasonable for the families of all the victims to

:19:06.:19:09.

wait any time, but particularly 48 years. My cousins and our family are

:19:10.:19:18.

waiting 46 years for the matter to be addressed.

:19:19.:19:26.

My constituents are awaiting 27 years for justice for those people.

:19:27.:19:34.

We are looking for justice and we want to see it coming and we want to

:19:35.:19:38.

see it coming from across the chamber. I am quite happy to respect

:19:39.:19:44.

everyone else if there is a case to be answered. If that is a case from

:19:45.:19:48.

our side to be answered, I want to hear it being talked about. I want

:19:49.:19:52.

to hear about enquiries for unionist people who have enjoyed some 35

:19:53.:19:59.

years of terrorism. Down by the border, where people were murdered

:20:00.:20:03.

because they were Protestants and unionists and White did they get? It

:20:04.:20:09.

was for their land. That is an example of what happened. We never

:20:10.:20:12.

hear that from elements in their cells. It has to be heard. I thank

:20:13.:20:20.

him for giving way. Remember also heard we were chastised because we

:20:21.:20:23.

represented certain traditional values. I have a letter from a

:20:24.:20:28.

parish priest in my constituency thanking me for the work that our

:20:29.:20:35.

party does standing up. I will show you the letter. Interventions are

:20:36.:20:44.

getting extremely long. Members are referring to each other directly. We

:20:45.:20:47.

do not do that. We speak through the chair. Really, I think the tone of

:20:48.:20:55.

the debate up to now has been very good and I really do not want to see

:20:56.:21:00.

that disappearing. I understand the passions and detentions and the

:21:01.:21:03.

importance of this, but the tone of the debate should be maintained as

:21:04.:21:11.

it has been so far. I come to my last few comments. I think the

:21:12.:21:13.

Secretary of State for comment this Bill and the contribution that he

:21:14.:21:19.

and the minister has made in the talks process. They have tried hard

:21:20.:21:26.

to move it forward and they know you have our full support in what you

:21:27.:21:31.

are bringing forward. We fully support these interim measures in

:21:32.:21:35.

the hopes Executive will be able to function soon. All the things we

:21:36.:21:40.

mentioned, all the things where wicked bridges and deployment. Keep

:21:41.:21:46.

upgrading jobs and prosperity and focusing on the things that matter

:21:47.:21:50.

for the young people today. For those he seek to spat in the wake of

:21:51.:21:54.

democracy, they will realise what we have been dealing with for years. We

:21:55.:21:59.

do not enjoy sitting beside unrepentant terrorists, but must do

:22:00.:22:03.

so as they have a mandate and the country must function as a democracy

:22:04.:22:06.

and we accept that and understand the process. They may not look

:22:07.:22:11.

forward to sitting beside us but we have the mandate is the largest

:22:12.:22:13.

party in Northern Ireland. This is the definition of democracy. I say

:22:14.:22:18.

to Sinn Fein, if you cannot work with us, resigned your seats and

:22:19.:22:24.

have those who have the good of Northern Ireland in mind to do the

:22:25.:22:29.

jobs so we do not have the come here again with more interim measures

:22:30.:22:32.

which indicate the democracy and failure for the people of Northern

:22:33.:22:36.

Ireland. Let's be positive and let this is only an interim measure and

:22:37.:22:40.

hopefully by the end of June, the parties will come together. Can I

:22:41.:22:44.

ask Sinn Fein to make that contribution? Step away from the

:22:45.:22:49.

high bar they have set and let's have a negotiation that leads

:22:50.:22:51.

somewhere for the people of Northern Ireland. Both sides, those who want

:22:52.:23:03.

a way forward. May I congratulate the honourable member for Strangford

:23:04.:23:08.

for his positive contribution today. That was really what we needed. It

:23:09.:23:14.

was getting the leak at times. May I also think the Secretary of State

:23:15.:23:17.

for all the work he has put into Northern Ireland, gone out and

:23:18.:23:19.

meeting people throughout the community and listening to people. I

:23:20.:23:26.

want to echo his words and sentiments about the bomb outside

:23:27.:23:29.

the premise good. Quite disgraceful. That should think should never

:23:30.:23:33.

happen. We thought we had moved away from adult and it emphasises how

:23:34.:23:37.

brittle the Northern Ireland situation is and how it. All of us,

:23:38.:23:40.

everywhere, to find the right way forward. I also thank the right

:23:41.:23:46.

honourable member for all he has done for coming and speaking to our

:23:47.:23:53.

party conference, for the things I do not agree with, it stood the

:23:54.:23:56.

debate up so it got quite lively and we did talk about some of the issues

:23:57.:24:00.

which needed to be talked about today. There is one party who are

:24:01.:24:06.

not here, they tickle the money and the fees and do not represent its

:24:07.:24:10.

people and yet paints itself to the rest of the world as the cuddly bear

:24:11.:24:15.

of Northern Irish politics when, in fact, it is a different type of

:24:16.:24:21.

their altogether. We very much welcome the Bill today and the

:24:22.:24:24.

provisions in it and the breathing space it has given to the gift of

:24:25.:24:31.

June. It has allowed us to put in place the things Northern Ireland

:24:32.:24:34.

once. There are key decisions needed on public finance and we know things

:24:35.:24:39.

are. The most vulnerable are always be people who pay the price and yet,

:24:40.:24:44.

within those budgets, there are still great difficulties looming

:24:45.:24:48.

ahead of us. Schools I have been talking to save the working on

:24:49.:24:51.

budgets with no plans for the future. They are using guesswork.

:24:52.:24:55.

There is one case in my constituency of the GAA for the pictures from the

:24:56.:25:02.

local integrated school. They can no longer do that because cuts to the

:25:03.:25:06.

screen meant they cannot have a caretaker to look after the pictures

:25:07.:25:09.

so they cannot train for their games. In other cases, there is

:25:10.:25:15.

massive capital expenditure needed in education and a note today that

:25:16.:25:19.

the budget presented is a two and a half percent cut in education and

:25:20.:25:22.

this light rays and health. There are a lot of problems ahead. We need

:25:23.:25:27.

flexibility in there, but in line with the question I asked earlier,

:25:28.:25:31.

we need mechanisms so when people come to politicians in this time of

:25:32.:25:34.

limbo for the Stormont government, that there is always a way of

:25:35.:25:38.

feeding that information to the heads of Department and getting

:25:39.:25:45.

action and getting some flexibility. I note that what has been put in

:25:46.:25:48.

place does not have a statutory footing entirely and hope that it

:25:49.:25:51.

therefore does not lead us into a world that can be challenged in the

:25:52.:25:57.

courts. We would also to hear on corporation tax, which has been

:25:58.:26:01.

raised earlier, what the intentions are to do with corporation tax

:26:02.:26:07.

because it was meant to coming in 2018. Will the Secretary of State

:26:08.:26:10.

confirm that will still be the case if Stormont is not in place. We

:26:11.:26:16.

have, as many have turned two, discussed the fact that you have

:26:17.:26:19.

Negi MLAs and the working away and their offices for looking after

:26:20.:26:24.

people on the ground, but we'd decisions made. We should focus on

:26:25.:26:28.

health and education and welfare and instead we are being dragged away

:26:29.:26:31.

into the Irish language and other matters which we are finding it

:26:32.:26:36.

difficult to get everyone to agree on. May I emphasise what others have

:26:37.:26:40.

said, which is the legacy issues? We have defined the way forward. The

:26:41.:26:45.

Secretary of State looks to bring in consultation and I welcome the

:26:46.:26:49.

outcome of that, we must never forget the victims. They must always

:26:50.:26:52.

be well looked after and not just in Northern Ireland. There are victims

:26:53.:26:56.

over here who are not properly looked after. He knows how keen I am

:26:57.:27:02.

that we are always looking after the servicemen and making sure there is

:27:03.:27:06.

no equality with the terrorists and there must be a way forward on

:27:07.:27:10.

legacy. There has to be a solution there and it needs of others sitting

:27:11.:27:13.

down and it does need the pressure on Sinn Fein to make everyone sit

:27:14.:27:24.

down. It is key that we get the Assembly up and running because of

:27:25.:27:34.

Brexit and whether we should remain and we must listen to the result,

:27:35.:27:42.

but we... We went to Dublin between Britain Northern Ireland affairs

:27:43.:27:44.

committee and found out that Unionism is not there with its voice

:27:45.:27:48.

either because of the limits of Strand to work because we do not

:27:49.:27:53.

have a government of our own. We must have a way to make sure that

:27:54.:27:57.

all types of Unionism, not just DUP, but UUP and others are being

:27:58.:28:00.

listened to two of the Brexit negotiations. We need to see 18 MPs

:28:01.:28:11.

back here, but just 14. We need to make sure everyone is being

:28:12.:28:15.

represented and if you click through, it is 250,000 people in

:28:16.:28:19.

Northern Ireland who are not being represented and that is very key to

:28:20.:28:25.

Brexit and we need to make sure that our farmers in every constituency

:28:26.:28:29.

are being listened to just as much as we are looking after our

:28:30.:28:32.

universities and businesses, Trinity and voluntary sector and would keep

:28:33.:28:37.

speak that God is our environment. We must make sure that that is very

:28:38.:28:40.

much part of the Brexit negotiations. I am fascinated

:28:41.:28:50.

listening to those recommending the mandatory coalition is not the way

:28:51.:28:53.

forward. The number of times I have spoken to the Secretary of State

:28:54.:28:57.

using the definition of insanity is doing the same thing again and

:28:58.:29:01.

again. It is great to hear others changing their mind when looking at

:29:02.:29:05.

different options. We need to find another way of working together,

:29:06.:29:08.

whether it is voluntary coalition. If we have a voluntary coalition, we

:29:09.:29:13.

have to make sure we look after the minorities so it is not without its

:29:14.:29:18.

difficulties. You could even have a minority government if the two major

:29:19.:29:21.

parties cannot agree, but we do need to sit down, all of this, and find a

:29:22.:29:25.

way forward. I know every single person sitting here wants solutions

:29:26.:29:30.

and can work together and one party that isn't here doesn't make it

:29:31.:29:35.

easy, but it doesn't mean the other parties here are not at fault. A

:29:36.:29:39.

little bit of humility, a little bit of dealing with the RHI and

:29:40.:29:44.

realising it was a certain party's fault. We could work that much

:29:45.:29:48.

better together and I longed to see Northern Ireland working. I do not

:29:49.:29:52.

want to see devolved government failing. If it is not working, if we

:29:53.:29:57.

are going to have direct route, it has to be for as short a time as

:29:58.:30:00.

possible, as effective as possible but it also has to be listening to

:30:01.:30:06.

all of this in Northern Ireland. I think the Secretary of State for

:30:07.:30:09.

what he has put in place today. I hope we get there and I look forward

:30:10.:30:11.

to seeing Northern Ireland really thrive in the future. Thank you very

:30:12.:30:22.

much, Madam Deputy Speaker. I, like many in the North of Ireland, am

:30:23.:30:26.

saddened that we have got to this impasse which has created the issues

:30:27.:30:30.

we are trying to solve today. We have so many problems that need to

:30:31.:30:34.

be faced. We will not face them or solve them by trading insults or

:30:35.:30:40.

abuse, so I will attempt to be as positive as possible and I will

:30:41.:30:45.

avoid a well known past and in Northern Ireland. I wanted to pay

:30:46.:30:53.

tribute to the Shadow Secretary of State for his outstanding public

:30:54.:30:56.

service over many years, but in This House and in the years before he

:30:57.:31:01.

arrived here. Thank you David. I know that all in This House will

:31:02.:31:05.

wish him well and those of us who have worked with them will miss him.

:31:06.:31:09.

His kindness, his tolerance and his caring approach. Firstly, Madam

:31:10.:31:16.

Deputy Speaker, I would like to touch on what I consider to be an

:31:17.:31:22.

absurd and relatively insulting suggestion by my friend, the

:31:23.:31:27.

honourable member for Lagan Valley, that the SDLP did nothing about the

:31:28.:31:31.

killing of Robert McCartney in a bar in Belfast in 2005. His point is

:31:32.:31:40.

that accurate nor well made. No one can criticise me in how outspoken I

:31:41.:31:43.

was about the murder of Robert McCartney. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:31:44.:31:48.

Sinn Fein come in the immediate aftermath were still trying to

:31:49.:31:52.

pretend it was the result of some sort of knife crime. I unequivocally

:31:53.:31:57.

pointed the finger clearly and without equivocation at IRA

:31:58.:32:04.

involvement in that matter. I thank the honourable member for South

:32:05.:32:09.

Belfast forgiving way. I would want to correct him and I may have got

:32:10.:32:13.

the location wrong in terms of where the murder was carried out, what I

:32:14.:32:18.

am talking about here is actually a tit-for-tat double murder of Jock

:32:19.:32:27.

Davidson and Robert McGuigan, Kevin McGuigan, sorry, Kevin McGuigan.

:32:28.:32:31.

That it occurred in a period when Sinn Fein were in government and one

:32:32.:32:37.

of those murders was carried out in his constituency and there was

:32:38.:32:40.

simply making the point that I did much of the honourable member on

:32:41.:32:43.

that occasion when there were multiple murders involved Colin into

:32:44.:32:50.

question Sinn Fein's fitness for government or his confidence in the

:32:51.:32:53.

government in those circumstances. I think it is a fair point to make.

:32:54.:33:01.

Well, the record will show that the member referred to a murder in a bar

:33:02.:33:06.

and the only murder in a bar was Robert McCartney. Madam Deputy

:33:07.:33:12.

Speaker, I was involved, active politically in criticising both the

:33:13.:33:14.

murder of Jock Davidson and the murder of Kevin McGuigan. And the

:33:15.:33:31.

government? I am being heckled. I can remind my honourable friend that

:33:32.:33:36.

when it came to the talks that took place in Stormont house, it was the

:33:37.:33:41.

SDLP who submitted The Papers in relation to a whole community

:33:42.:33:45.

approach to tackling paramilitaries. It was the SDLP who put in a whole

:33:46.:33:49.

enforcement approach to tackling paramilitaries and, in fact, it was

:33:50.:33:53.

the SDLP who wanted paramilitary sub and criminality on the agenda and it

:33:54.:33:57.

was the DUP who helped veto that. Nonsense. We risk getting into

:33:58.:34:07.

arguments. We are probably deeply into it. At the time, I want to put

:34:08.:34:12.

on the record, that I was very critical, publicly and aggressively,

:34:13.:34:21.

on the murder... I think we are really very much in danger of

:34:22.:34:26.

ranging quite far outside the Bill, or the second reading of the Bill,

:34:27.:34:30.

and we are getting bogged down in the specifics about individual

:34:31.:34:34.

parties and I understand why and where this is coming from, but if we

:34:35.:34:38.

could keep a bit more closely to the second reading part of the Bill then

:34:39.:34:41.

that would be fantastic. Thank you very much.

:34:42.:34:47.

Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker, but allegations were made and I felt

:34:48.:34:53.

I had to respond to them, but I will leave it at that. We can deal with

:34:54.:34:58.

it privately, and sort it out over a cup of tea! Moving on, Madame Deputy

:34:59.:35:04.

Speaker, I am not a violent man, so... Moving on, Madame Deputy

:35:05.:35:11.

Speaker - we are in this situation now because of our failure to face a

:35:12.:35:19.

reality. Will people not agree with me, the difficulties around the

:35:20.:35:22.

renewable heating initiative triggered a sequence of events which

:35:23.:35:25.

spun out of control. People out there want answers, and people feel

:35:26.:35:31.

that they need and deserve answers. Many of those who want answers are

:35:32.:35:38.

not all nationalists, many unionists are also horrified by the events

:35:39.:35:41.

around that situation. I will leave it at that. Clouds of confusion or

:35:42.:35:47.

poking each other in the eye only makes things worse. I say to the

:35:48.:35:52.

Secretary of State that it is vital that no stone is left unturned until

:35:53.:35:55.

devolution is restored in Northern Ireland. I say to him that we have

:35:56.:36:01.

massive problems that must be faced. Northern Ireland is suffering from a

:36:02.:36:03.

total lack of confidence in our institutions. There are many in this

:36:04.:36:09.

issues facing us but four big ones are jumping out. Brexit - Northern

:36:10.:36:16.

Ireland voted against it. To my mind, it will be very difficult for

:36:17.:36:20.

Northern Ireland. It is multilayered, but to take one

:36:21.:36:23.

example- I am inundated with community groups and community

:36:24.:36:29.

workers, peace building groups in various communities who are

:36:30.:36:32.

depending heavily on European peace funds to carry out their work. They

:36:33.:36:36.

are facing collapse due to the lack of funding and not on any one

:36:37.:36:43.

particular side of the divide. Secondly, Madame Deputy Speaker, our

:36:44.:36:49.

economy, we mentioned earlier the reduction in corporation tax and how

:36:50.:36:53.

that has been interfered with and delayed. Madame Deputy Speaker,

:36:54.:36:59.

aside from corporation tax, there was meant to be a prosperity

:37:00.:37:03.

dividend following the peace process that never came. To my mind, peace

:37:04.:37:09.

will not be fully sustained unless our economy gets a boost and real

:37:10.:37:15.

jobs are created? Currently, we have no budget, and this has serious

:37:16.:37:20.

consequences, particularly for our schools and health service. The

:37:21.:37:25.

member for South Antrim mentioned many of the problems in education. I

:37:26.:37:31.

won't repeat them. But I will point out one thing - we have very

:37:32.:37:38.

difficult, serious problems with underachievement and despite some

:37:39.:37:42.

big successes in some schools, I would urge the Secretary of State to

:37:43.:37:46.

work with me and my colleagues in north Belfast and east Belfast to do

:37:47.:37:52.

what we can to solve the crisis of underachievement in education in

:37:53.:37:57.

marginalised areas. It is frightening. And I would be very

:37:58.:38:01.

glad, in conjunction with my colleagues from neighbouring

:38:02.:38:06.

constituencies, if the Secretary of State or the undersecretary of

:38:07.:38:08.

state, could find the time to visit these schools, because it's despair

:38:09.:38:13.

plus for some of the people who try to teach in these schools. And these

:38:14.:38:17.

are the people who are suffering more than any as a result of the

:38:18.:38:21.

present difficulties. We need to deal with this education despair,

:38:22.:38:25.

and the disadvantage in these areas. Because if we don't deal with it, we

:38:26.:38:32.

are creating an underclass of people who will have no stake in society

:38:33.:38:38.

and will be disruptive to society in the years ahead. That's if you like

:38:39.:38:44.

the self-interest. The broad interest is, we have a duty to

:38:45.:38:48.

ensure that all children of the nation are treated equally. On

:38:49.:38:53.

health, Secretary of State, our health service is stumbling towards

:38:54.:38:58.

despair. Primary care struggles to cope with hospital waiting lists,

:38:59.:39:00.

particularly surgical waiting lists. I won't go into the detail. But

:39:01.:39:09.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I can want to make one point, and I hope it will

:39:10.:39:15.

be taken with the honesty in which it is made. Attacks on the Irish

:39:16.:39:21.

language... In fact I was tempted to make this speech in Gaelic today,

:39:22.:39:24.

but I decided out of courtesy I wouldn't. A tax on Irish language --

:39:25.:39:31.

attacks on the Irish language and immature abuse of those who wish to

:39:32.:39:36.

speak Gaelic... It is not a crime to speak Welsh in Wales, or to speak

:39:37.:39:41.

Gaelic in Scotland. I would like to remind the House that 100 years ago,

:39:42.:39:47.

the Irish language revival in my county, the proud county of Antrim,

:39:48.:39:51.

was led by unionists. Not by nationalists. And it's disastrous to

:39:52.:39:59.

hand the ownership of the Irish language exclusively to Sinn Fein. I

:40:00.:40:05.

will never agree to that and I will never concur with it in whatever

:40:06.:40:10.

shape or form it might be. The Irish language is the possession of no

:40:11.:40:12.

political party or group. The member has requested support for

:40:13.:40:28.

victims of the IRA. I could not agree with him or. I had many

:40:29.:40:34.

friends murdered by the IRA and I am very willing to put on record my

:40:35.:40:36.

support for any campaign for justice and honesty and openness, for all

:40:37.:40:44.

victims and survivors, regardless of who they are all what their

:40:45.:40:47.

aspiration might be politically. And that includes every single victim.

:40:48.:40:50.

On the general point that has been made, we must solve the legacy

:40:51.:40:56.

issues. Others have gone into the detail of legacy issues. We must get

:40:57.:41:01.

a solution to the legacy issues. Secretary of State, I would beg the

:41:02.:41:05.

Secretary of State to push on with that until we get a solution as Emma

:41:06.:41:10.

it is something which will fuel instability and this content going

:41:11.:41:16.

forward. Madame Deputy Speaker, all I want to do in the remaining few

:41:17.:41:22.

seconds or minutes is to wish the Secretary of State every success in

:41:23.:41:26.

his efforts to get devolution re-established. It is the best deal

:41:27.:41:32.

for Northern Ireland and I genuinely hope that the bill today for 108

:41:33.:41:38.

days will allow the space to bring about success in restoring the

:41:39.:41:43.

institutions. I would hope that striking a temporary deal will help

:41:44.:41:47.

restore a degree of financial stability. And I would urge the

:41:48.:41:52.

Secretary of State to pay particular attention, when it comes round to

:41:53.:41:59.

helping to allocate the billions, that the Brexit people promised us

:42:00.:42:02.

on the back of a Leave vote you remember that, 350-odd million a

:42:03.:42:07.

week? I would urge the Secretary of State to ensure that some of that

:42:08.:42:12.

money released goes towards creating a prosperity process, dealing with

:42:13.:42:18.

educational underachievement and dealing with strengthening the

:42:19.:42:21.

Health Service so it is able to cope with the demand in Northern Ireland.

:42:22.:42:28.

Thank you thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker. It gives me great pleasure

:42:29.:42:32.

to be asked to speak and to follow the honourable gentleman from South

:42:33.:42:39.

Belfast. In terms of this debate, I welcome the bill that has been put

:42:40.:42:45.

forward by the Secretary of State insofar as it goes. It's necessary

:42:46.:42:52.

but unfortunate. There is now a new deadline, but of course, a new

:42:53.:43:00.

deadline which was the same deadline for the first set of talks, so it is

:43:01.:43:06.

not really a deadline. I think the Secretary of State may find, if I

:43:07.:43:09.

can say this to him with the greatest respect, that's a bit more

:43:10.:43:14.

of a hard deadline, rather than a softer deadline, would actually

:43:15.:43:17.

produce more dividends in making it clear to some people in the talks

:43:18.:43:22.

process that actually, it's time to make your mind up and to make a

:43:23.:43:25.

choice as to whether or not they really want devolution or not. Can I

:43:26.:43:31.

also say, Madame Deputy Speaker, that having listened to the debate

:43:32.:43:36.

today, whatever our differences are on these benches, and there are

:43:37.:43:43.

three benches here of Northern Ireland MPs, and whatever our

:43:44.:43:46.

differences are, and it can get heated at times, and especially when

:43:47.:43:50.

people talk about historical events and all the rest of it, but the one

:43:51.:43:57.

thing that binds us in common is that we are here to represent the

:43:58.:44:02.

people who elect us, not just the people who voted for us but all the

:44:03.:44:08.

people in our constituencies. We all take our seats and we all speak up

:44:09.:44:14.

and stand up for Northern Ireland. And whatever the differences may be

:44:15.:44:17.

between us, that is something that we have in common, and when I hear

:44:18.:44:22.

some of the eulogies that have been passed in recent days to the former

:44:23.:44:25.

Deputy First Minister for instance, which passed away, it needs to be

:44:26.:44:32.

borne in mind that when some people said, you know, he went down a

:44:33.:44:38.

certain path because he had no choice, that there were people also

:44:39.:44:41.

growing up in places like Londonderry and Belfast at the same

:44:42.:44:44.

time, people like John Hume who did not take up an Armalite or a bomb

:44:45.:44:51.

and they could say they were from the same background, but they chose

:44:52.:44:55.

a democratic path. They chose a different path in terms of their

:44:56.:44:59.

politics and outlook from me and our colleagues, but it was a democratic

:45:00.:45:02.

path, and they deserve praise and honour for that. And sometimes it is

:45:03.:45:13.

easily forgotten. Madame Deputy Speaker, we have been here before in

:45:14.:45:16.

terms of emergency legislation. Not so long ago we had the emergency

:45:17.:45:22.

legislation to get the issue of welfare reform sorted out in

:45:23.:45:26.

Northern Ireland. Another crisis, which led to intensive talks and

:45:27.:45:29.

agreements. Another crisis brought about because, within the Northern

:45:30.:45:34.

Ireland Assembly, some people didn't, for whatever reason, want to

:45:35.:45:41.

take the decision to implement welfare changes which were

:45:42.:45:46.

inevitably the result of changes passed here in Westminster, which we

:45:47.:45:51.

opposed but then we accepted there was a budget set and we have two get

:45:52.:45:58.

on with dealing with the reality. Mitigations were brought in and

:45:59.:46:01.

sadly some of those may now be at risk if we do not get devolution up

:46:02.:46:08.

and running. But Sinn Fein appeared willing, and Warren Willing, to

:46:09.:46:12.

allow this Parliament, the members of this House, whose authority and

:46:13.:46:19.

validity they question and query and van Basten all the time, to do the

:46:20.:46:24.

heavy lifting of actually implementing the hard decisions that

:46:25.:46:28.

needed to be done, and in fact, as I understand it, in 2017, up until the

:46:29.:46:33.

end of this year, Westminster still has the legal authority as Emma the

:46:34.:46:38.

sunset clause has not yet kicked in. And there isn't a word about it as

:46:39.:46:44.

far as Sinn Fein are concerned. The sovereign Westminster Parliament has

:46:45.:46:47.

full control in that area, and yet we are told that under no

:46:48.:46:50.

circumstances must there be a return to direct rule. There already is,

:46:51.:46:55.

Madame Deputy Speaker, a partial return to direct rule when it comes

:46:56.:46:59.

to welfare reform, and they agreed to it. That's the reality. In terms

:47:00.:47:07.

of our position, let me make it clear we do want devolution restored

:47:08.:47:12.

in Northern Ireland. Those of us who sit in Westminster may have more

:47:13.:47:16.

influence if matters were to be decided here, but let me make it

:47:17.:47:21.

clear, it has far less influence than MLAs of all parties in Stormont

:47:22.:47:25.

would have deciding the affairs of Northern Ireland. And that's what we

:47:26.:47:33.

want to see. Thank you, I am grateful to the right honourable

:47:34.:47:37.

gentleman for allowing me to intervene. I think he makes a very

:47:38.:47:41.

valuable point. As we're heading into this general election campaign,

:47:42.:47:47.

and harsh words will be said against 1-party, against the other, that's

:47:48.:47:51.

what happens, but would the right honourable gentleman just take this

:47:52.:47:55.

opportunity to reassure the people of Northern Ireland that even during

:47:56.:48:02.

the general election campaign, that there will be low-level discussions,

:48:03.:48:05.

perhaps not even low-level discussions, between his party and

:48:06.:48:08.

Sinn Fein, to try and get talks immediately up and going in a

:48:09.:48:14.

positive mood after the general election in June? Madame Deputy

:48:15.:48:20.

Speaker, we have made it clear that we are happy to continue with

:48:21.:48:23.

contacts during the election campaign and I'm sure that there

:48:24.:48:26.

will be such contacts at official and other levels. We have no

:48:27.:48:31.

difficulty in trying to reach out and get agreement on the issues that

:48:32.:48:36.

are outstanding, because we want to make it very clear today in this

:48:37.:48:40.

House that we do not stand in the way of restoration of devolution.

:48:41.:48:45.

Nor do I understand do some other parties in the process. We will

:48:46.:48:50.

reform the executive tomorrow, Monday, Tuesday, any day the

:48:51.:48:54.

Secretary of State chooses to call us, we will go into government. As

:48:55.:48:57.

my right honourable friend said, able shouldn't just take that for

:48:58.:49:04.

granted. People shouldn't just say, that's OK, because given what we

:49:05.:49:07.

have come through as a community and as political representatives

:49:08.:49:10.

representing people who have been on the receiving end of IRA bombs and

:49:11.:49:15.

bullets, that is a massive statement that we're making. But we're

:49:16.:49:19.

prepared and willing to do that, because for some of the reasons that

:49:20.:49:23.

the member for South Belfast stated, he mentioned education and the

:49:24.:49:30.

levels of underachievement in areas of Belfast and many other parts of

:49:31.:49:34.

the province as well, this is a critical issue, and there were steps

:49:35.:49:39.

being taken in the Assembly by the minister for education, not just our

:49:40.:49:42.

minister but reveals ministers as well, to try to address some of

:49:43.:49:46.

these issues. And I wish that that work could continue, because it's

:49:47.:49:50.

better that local ministers who have an understanding and a feel for

:49:51.:49:55.

these issues, and know what will work and what won't will drive these

:49:56.:49:58.

policies, to people on the ground. In terms of the voluntary and

:49:59.:50:09.

community sector, again, we have common ground in that people need

:50:10.:50:15.

certainty on budgets and do not know what is quite happen. Arlene Foster

:50:16.:50:19.

and myself met with the business community across the board. Their

:50:20.:50:23.

message was they wanted devolution up and running. We agree with them

:50:24.:50:28.

on that. We will work to do that. The honourable member for

:50:29.:50:32.

Strangford, in his speech, mentioned some of the achievements of

:50:33.:50:36.

devolution. It is easy to forget sometimes, in the general view that

:50:37.:50:42.

devolution never did anything for us, local government in Northern

:50:43.:50:45.

Ireland never achieved anything. Leaving aside the big prize of peace

:50:46.:50:53.

and stability and all the rest of it, one of the things we must do is

:50:54.:50:57.

to reiterate what are the benefits of devolution? It is important those

:50:58.:51:05.

are repeated over and over again. One thing I find slightly reassuring

:51:06.:51:10.

is that in the run up to January, everybody said get rid of Stormont,

:51:11.:51:14.

it is waste of time, nobody wants it. Since it has been down,

:51:15.:51:18.

everybody is now saying make sure you get Stormont up and running. It

:51:19.:51:22.

would be a disaster if it fell. I just wish some of those people would

:51:23.:51:27.

speak up more loudly when difficult decisions are being taken by the

:51:28.:51:30.

Executive and the Assembly at the time, because it is easy to join the

:51:31.:51:35.

general throng and say everything is terrible when tough decisions have

:51:36.:51:42.

to be made. Sinn Fein are now saying, I read an article by Declan

:51:43.:51:50.

Tierney recently, in which he paraded the Conservative government.

:51:51.:51:54.

He said since 2010 has been a change in attitude from British

:51:55.:51:58.

governments, he blamed the DUP. No blame whatsoever attaching to his

:51:59.:52:05.

party. There is a bit of a rewriting of the past gone on, not just the

:52:06.:52:09.

last 30 years of the troubles, but a rewriting of the last seven or eight

:52:10.:52:14.

months. The House does need to be reminded that, up until January,

:52:15.:52:19.

when the late Martin McGuinness resigned and collapsed the Assembly,

:52:20.:52:25.

even though the issues in terms of RHI were being addressed and could

:52:26.:52:29.

be addressed and no reason for the Assembly to be collapsed, we had a

:52:30.:52:33.

joint letter signed by the first and Deputy First Minister on Brexit. A

:52:34.:52:38.

very helpful letter, very positive. There was no issue about special

:52:39.:52:41.

status or about how this was an issue that was going to destroy

:52:42.:52:46.

Northern Ireland's government. We had a draft programme for government

:52:47.:52:50.

agreed. It was out for consultation. The draft programme for government

:52:51.:52:54.

was one which received a great deal of positive reaction from most

:52:55.:52:59.

people across the community. We also had a joint article penned by the

:53:00.:53:04.

late Deputy First Minister and First Minister in the Belfast Telegraph

:53:05.:53:07.

setting out a positive vision for Northern Ireland. There were regular

:53:08.:53:10.

and good meetings happening between Sinn Fein and the government and the

:53:11.:53:16.

DUP and others in relation to legacy issues. All of that was being worked

:53:17.:53:20.

through. Now we are told that this was all a total disaster. Government

:53:21.:53:26.

could not possibly continue in Northern Ireland because of Brexit,

:53:27.:53:31.

because of the legacy issues, because of the Irish language

:53:32.:53:37.

issues. Yet, Sinn Fein went into government in mid-2016, went out on

:53:38.:53:40.

a programme for government draft in which the Irish language wasn't part

:53:41.:53:44.

of it. There was no such demand it then. Suddenly it has become a

:53:45.:53:50.

demand. Then they said it is about respect. But when you think about,

:53:51.:53:54.

some people have talked about insulting language and all the rest

:53:55.:53:57.

of that, I have to remind the House that some of the things being said

:53:58.:54:02.

the Sinn Fein. Gerry Adams referred to Unionist people, I will not use

:54:03.:54:07.

the expletive used. The quality was a means of breaking unionists. How

:54:08.:54:17.

insulting? How awful? We did not work of the government. The

:54:18.:54:20.

Secretary of State recently, in the talks protest -- process, was is

:54:21.:54:27.

disparaged by Gerry Adams. When the honourable member was called

:54:28.:54:30.

insulting language on the radio again the Gerry Adams, we did not

:54:31.:54:34.

work out. When Martina Anderson stood up in the European Parliament

:54:35.:54:39.

and told people in the most revolting language where to put the

:54:40.:54:46.

border, I see the EU McDonald, the deputy leader of Sinn Fein running

:54:47.:54:50.

around today in a T-shirt glorying in that file language. What does

:54:51.:54:54.

that say to Unionists? What does it say to honest, decent people who

:54:55.:55:00.

took a principled position to leave the EU? This is insulting. Michelle

:55:01.:55:08.

O'Neill left the talks to travel down the Coalisland to stand and

:55:09.:55:17.

eulogise IRA murderers. How insulting is that? What I am saying

:55:18.:55:28.

is that there are issues which cut across both communities. The way

:55:29.:55:33.

forward, we can have another election, we are having an election

:55:34.:55:37.

in June, so there will be plenty of elections since last May when we

:55:38.:55:43.

heard the first Assembly election. We can have another Assembly

:55:44.:55:46.

election. That is another three months. Where do we go after that?

:55:47.:55:53.

Direct route? Well, if that is what Sinn Fein are really aiming for, I

:55:54.:55:57.

do not understand the reasons I have outlined why they want to go down

:55:58.:56:01.

that path. The government has made it clear, and I welcome the fact

:56:02.:56:04.

they have said it will be no joint sovereignty. That is against the

:56:05.:56:08.

terms of the Belfast agreement. The very agreement Sinn Fein say they

:56:09.:56:12.

are committed to. The government has made it clear there is snowboarder

:56:13.:56:17.

Paul, again for the reasons set out in the Belfast agreement. They have

:56:18.:56:20.

made it clear the stability of Northern Ireland and its future is a

:56:21.:56:24.

matter for the British government and so it is. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:56:25.:56:32.

the only way forward is to have devolution. A number of the site set

:56:33.:56:37.

at one time in this debate that people have had to make intensely

:56:38.:56:41.

difficult decisions and he referred to the Conservative Party and the

:56:42.:56:47.

Labour Party and I want just to add my personal best wishes to the

:56:48.:56:53.

Shadow spokesperson for Northern Ireland, he is leaving the House at

:56:54.:56:57.

this election. We may disagree on many issues, but I wish personally

:56:58.:57:01.

very well for the future. There are differences between the Conservative

:57:02.:57:09.

Party and Labour, intensely difficult decisions were made by

:57:10.:57:12.

bolstering the peace process. He referred to the parties in the

:57:13.:57:15.

south, referred to the parties in the United States. Could I just add

:57:16.:57:21.

that the parties in Northern Ireland had to make intensely difficult,

:57:22.:57:26.

personally difficult decisions which mark we represent constituents who

:57:27.:57:32.

have been murdered and butchered by terrorists and there are members who

:57:33.:57:35.

represent constituents murdered and butchered by loyalists. We represent

:57:36.:57:42.

and have family members who were murdered. Some of us saw close

:57:43.:57:47.

colleagues done to death in front of us. Some of us were personally

:57:48.:57:51.

attacked and had assassination attempt is made on us. People had

:57:52.:57:59.

their offices bombed, letter bombs sent. We have been three years of

:58:00.:58:03.

this. We have made intensely difficult decisions and despite all

:58:04.:58:07.

of that, we are committed to devolution. When people say we want

:58:08.:58:14.

to throw it all up in the air, we have come too far for that. But we

:58:15.:58:19.

need a partner to work alongside us in government. I have no doubt about

:58:20.:58:24.

the commitment of parties like the SDLP and the Ulster Unionist Party

:58:25.:58:28.

and Alliance to working for the best in Northern Ireland, I begin to

:58:29.:58:34.

worry about a party like Sinn Fein when it continually threatens the

:58:35.:58:37.

institutions every time there is a difficult problem. We have got to

:58:38.:58:42.

have a partner that wants to work in government and recognises the

:58:43.:58:45.

parameters within which we operate. Which is a devolved government,

:58:46.:58:50.

which is part of the United Kingdom, but there are a north-south

:58:51.:58:54.

arrangements, the east-west arrangements. We all play a full

:58:55.:58:57.

part in that. There is guaranteed power-sharing, where rights are

:58:58.:59:05.

protected. We will leave the EU as part of Brexit, but that there will

:59:06.:59:11.

be special arrangements recognising the special circumstances of

:59:12.:59:14.

Northern Ireland across a number of areas, because we share a land

:59:15.:59:18.

frontier, there has to be a different arrangement, of course

:59:19.:59:20.

there has to be. That is what we seek. That is what we seek. Madam

:59:21.:59:26.

Deputy Speaker, I hope in the coming days we can achieve that, but we

:59:27.:59:32.

cannot achieve it on our own and I think the Secretary of State will

:59:33.:59:35.

recognise that in the recent talks at Stormont we have tried to reach

:59:36.:59:42.

out and we will continue to try to solve some of these difficult

:59:43.:59:47.

issues. He is a player in all of this as well because Sinn Fein

:59:48.:59:50.

equally criticised him for not living on the legacy issues as they

:59:51.:59:54.

criticise us. He knows some of the criticism he takes, we take. But

:59:55.:59:59.

what we want to do is to try to find their way through that. We are

:00:00.:00:05.

committed to doing that. After the election we will continue with

:00:06.:00:09.

whatever needs to be done during the period of the election. Madam Deputy

:00:10.:00:12.

Speaker, I welcome the Bill tonight and hope it goes through without any

:00:13.:00:13.

opposition. Goodbye just ask... I want to

:00:14.:00:36.

apologise on behalf of the number of the number. I want to thank

:00:37.:00:45.

everybody who said kind words about me, especially those who did not

:00:46.:00:54.

mean them. I would take long, but I do want to talk about one thing

:00:55.:00:57.

which is stuck with me through my time in This House. Around 2007 the

:00:58.:01:05.

Northern Ireland affairs committee held an investigation into the

:01:06.:01:14.

issues around justice. Eight many mass -- a minibus... There was in

:01:15.:01:21.

modern of a man called Maguire. Because of the boss and we were

:01:22.:01:26.

going to Italy centre with this man was quoted speak to people. He was

:01:27.:01:31.

telling us, that is the hardest thing I have done in my life. That

:01:32.:01:38.

man has told me that he committed to murderers on behalf of the IRA and

:01:39.:01:41.

he is going in there to tell young men and women do not follow my path.

:01:42.:01:51.

He spoke about losing colleagues. It was heartfelt, what he said. We have

:01:52.:01:55.

got to put these things at one side and on issues like this would have

:01:56.:01:59.

got to Act as parliamentarians. That is what we are asking people to do

:02:00.:02:05.

and what has been done today. People have questioned the blockages in

:02:06.:02:14.

Northern Ireland, the reasons we might not be able to live through.

:02:15.:02:18.

They might be right, but that is what myself and the Secretary of

:02:19.:02:21.

State and tinker with. That is what we have to with in terms of moving

:02:22.:02:24.

this forward. I would just reiterate what I have put forward today. I do

:02:25.:02:29.

not believe that only of these issues are unresolvable. On the

:02:30.:02:33.

equalities issue, I believe asking the parties to move and Northern

:02:34.:02:39.

Ireland into line with the rest of the United Kingdom isn't too big a

:02:40.:02:46.

thing for us to ask. I am led to believe there was a majority vote in

:02:47.:02:52.

Stormont in November 20 15th which actually agreed, but was blocked by

:02:53.:02:57.

a petition of concern. On the Irish language, again, what we are asking

:02:58.:03:00.

for is the same as other parts of the UK have. Also, at the same time,

:03:01.:03:07.

recognise the real issues around the heritage of Ulster Scots and put

:03:08.:03:12.

work forward that develops that. On the renewable health initiative, I

:03:13.:03:20.

would say what you said before. Sinn Fein could stop the unreasonable

:03:21.:03:23.

demand that the leader of the DUP should step aside. If they did, that

:03:24.:03:28.

would be a huge step in the right direction. On legacy, despite all

:03:29.:03:33.

the criticism, I made the point clearly, we need a system in place

:03:34.:03:38.

that protects all victims, which treat all victims equally and, as

:03:39.:03:42.

far as we can, brings justice and closure for the families of those

:03:43.:03:48.

victims. I do not believe that any of those are unreasonable requests.

:03:49.:03:50.

We should call the bluff of those trying to block this and tell them

:03:51.:03:55.

to get back to their jobs and do the job they volunteered to do in the

:03:56.:04:02.

first place. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I first of all say what

:04:03.:04:11.

a pleasure it is to follow my friend. As often in these

:04:12.:04:19.

situations, we are pleased to say we find ourselves... The Member For

:04:20.:04:26.

Blaydon, I have had the pleasure of knowing him since 2010. We served

:04:27.:04:32.

the British- Irish Parliamentary Assembly, we time together here and

:04:33.:04:37.

I have always found him, there are many issues on which we do not

:04:38.:04:41.

agree, politics might be different, but he is a good man. A very kind

:04:42.:04:45.

man. I would like to restrict a couple of points he made. The issues

:04:46.:04:49.

around women's rights, it is right for us to stand up and challenge.

:04:50.:04:57.

And I think the issues around LGBT, I think we should respect that it is

:04:58.:05:05.

a devolved matter, and I do respect that. But actually, as an

:05:06.:05:11.

individual, I love forward to attending Belfast Pride in August,

:05:12.:05:17.

and I will stand with the best part of 50,000 people from Northern

:05:18.:05:21.

Ireland. And I think that's a significant voice to be very -- to

:05:22.:05:31.

be represented and recognised. I pay tribute to the bipartisan spirit in

:05:32.:05:34.

which we are able to take these steps towards stability and good

:05:35.:05:38.

government in Northern Ireland. This is especially promote and --

:05:39.:05:43.

especially important, given the general election to come. The bill

:05:44.:05:49.

before the House first proposes to give the space for the executive to

:05:50.:05:54.

form, providing the framework for success in the final phase of talks

:05:55.:05:59.

before us. It takes the modest steps needed to set a regional rate, to

:06:00.:06:04.

provide certainty for ratepayers and future executive like. So, rather

:06:05.:06:10.

than cover that ground again, I would like to respond to some of the

:06:11.:06:13.

specific points raised in the debate. My honourable friend the

:06:14.:06:20.

member for chooks breach was one of many who condemned the terrorist

:06:21.:06:28.

attack, which attempted murder, the placement of a bomb outside a

:06:29.:06:33.

school. There are many depraved acts that have gone on over many years in

:06:34.:06:38.

Northern Ireland, but actually to place a bomb outside a school is

:06:39.:06:43.

probably one of the most despicable things I can think of. And I'm sure

:06:44.:06:48.

the community around that school will be appalled that young people

:06:49.:06:55.

were put in danger by these psychopaths. And every part of our

:06:56.:07:02.

community should stand up and condemn, I'm sure they will do. My

:07:03.:07:08.

right honourable friend also mentioned the fact that those

:07:09.:07:14.

decisions quite rightly should be made in Northern Ireland, not here.

:07:15.:07:18.

He also mentioned quite rightly the impact on businesses caused by this

:07:19.:07:21.

uncertainty which sits over Northern Ireland at the moment. And he gave

:07:22.:07:29.

us his thoughts on direct rule, he doesn't want to direct rule, and he

:07:30.:07:33.

gave us the consequences of direct rule. I just want to reiterate

:07:34.:07:41.

again, we do not want direct rule. The member for Edinburgh gave a very

:07:42.:07:47.

succinct speech, possibly a lesson to others who may have made

:07:48.:07:52.

contributions during the afternoon, and I just want to say thank you for

:07:53.:08:00.

the support. And, as was pointed out she wants to see critical

:08:01.:08:05.

administrations in Northern Ireland taking those decisions, and so do

:08:06.:08:11.

we. The member for North Shropshire has given his apologies,

:08:12.:08:15.

unfortunately he had to go. Paying tribute to the brave police officers

:08:16.:08:17.

of Northern Ireland, and we should never forgot that and I completely

:08:18.:08:25.

agree. And he said there was not a single member of this House who

:08:26.:08:29.

wanted direct rule. And I can tell you, on this side, there is nobody

:08:30.:08:32.

who wants that. We want local politicians who have been given a

:08:33.:08:37.

mandate to take responsibility and deliver an Assembly and executive

:08:38.:08:42.

which can make decisions on behalf of those hard-working people that he

:08:43.:08:48.

talked about. And he said, and quite rightly, there is goodwill there

:08:49.:08:52.

with the people of Northern Ireland to try and make this work. It's just

:08:53.:08:56.

requires the politicians who have been elected to take responsibility.

:08:57.:09:01.

The member for East Antrim condemned the attempted murder of police

:09:02.:09:08.

officers outside the school and I really welcome his support for our

:09:09.:09:17.

police officers. I know he has a long reputation in this area. I

:09:18.:09:22.

welcome his support for the bill. The member for Lagan Valley supports

:09:23.:09:26.

the bill, and I would just like to put on record my gratitude for his

:09:27.:09:30.

support around issues of legacy as well. He has brought several debates

:09:31.:09:37.

forward in recent months, which has given us the opportunity to discuss

:09:38.:09:40.

these really important issues and get a balanced view on, make sure

:09:41.:09:44.

the issue around proportionality is put out there. He asked specifically

:09:45.:09:55.

around welfare. What I would say is that we are at the moment, the

:09:56.:10:00.

function of this bill is to make sure that monies can be sent through

:10:01.:10:04.

to the civil service there. I have the regulations already in place to

:10:05.:10:09.

make the decisions which are part of the agreement. So, the resource is

:10:10.:10:16.

there and it will be for the Home Secretary and his team to make those

:10:17.:10:20.

choices around about money. The member for Foyle regrets the

:10:21.:10:26.

necessity to bring the bill. Again, this is a sentiment that came out

:10:27.:10:29.

several times but he does support the bill and I appreciate that. He

:10:30.:10:34.

wants to get the institutions up and running. The member for Strangford

:10:35.:10:37.

talked about the positive contribution and it was good to see.

:10:38.:10:43.

There were many negative elements to the afternoon, but the fact that he

:10:44.:10:46.

wanted to stand up and talk about the positive. In fact they were so

:10:47.:10:51.

many positive statistics he wanted to give us. But it is so important

:10:52.:10:57.

to reiterate, devolved government has been in place, and services have

:10:58.:11:03.

been delivered as a consequence. And we need to keep reiterating that

:11:04.:11:07.

this is about local people delivering for their communities.

:11:08.:11:13.

The member for Southampton gave a very measured contribution I thought

:11:14.:11:18.

and I really appreciate that. -- for South Antrim. You mentioned the

:11:19.:11:26.

issue of corporation tax and asked whether it was going to be

:11:27.:11:29.

incorporated. This is a devolved matter, but actually, as we have

:11:30.:11:37.

said for some time but will it requires the Assembly and the

:11:38.:11:39.

executive to demonstrate its confidence. So, I agree, we want to

:11:40.:11:52.

see that delivered as well but we need the Assembly in place to be

:11:53.:11:56.

able to put that forward. And I would like to put on record again

:11:57.:11:59.

his support around finding solutions to the issues around legacy, which

:12:00.:12:05.

effect all communities. The member for Belfast South, who is a good

:12:06.:12:13.

friend of mine, who spoke with much one about his friend the member for

:12:14.:12:18.

Blaydon, and it was positive to see that a cup of tea is going to be

:12:19.:12:25.

consumed between himself and the member for Lagan Valley. That's the

:12:26.:12:29.

kind of politics we need to promote in Northern Ireland. And I would

:12:30.:12:36.

also just like to say, the point that he made around the Welsh

:12:37.:12:42.

language. Gaelic is spoken in Scotland, and that treasured

:12:43.:12:45.

language, the Irish language, which nobody should be ashamed of, it is a

:12:46.:12:50.

massive cornerstone of a culture across Ireland, but actually I know

:12:51.:12:54.

many people in Northern Ireland treasure that as well. The member

:12:55.:13:01.

for north Belfast welcomed the bill and laid out very clearly the merits

:13:02.:13:06.

of the democratic path and reiterated his commitment to

:13:07.:13:13.

devolution, which we appreciate. In closing, Madam Speaker, I note that

:13:14.:13:21.

the... Thank you, I am very grateful. There just appears to me

:13:22.:13:31.

to be one key issue which actually the minister, to my disappointment,

:13:32.:13:35.

hasn't addressed yet. That was an issue that was raised by a couple of

:13:36.:13:38.

people who contributed this afternoon, and is about Sinn Fein's

:13:39.:13:46.

allowances when they sit as absentee MPs. Is this government prepared to

:13:47.:13:52.

take a hardline approach, a hard-headed and opera approach

:13:53.:13:56.

towards Sinn Fein, who don't take their seats that are still able to

:13:57.:14:00.

take advantage of a huge amount of public funding from this House for

:14:01.:14:04.

ministerial and secretarial assistance? I sit here as an

:14:05.:14:11.

independent, I don't have a party. I received no allowances in support of

:14:12.:14:17.

additional secretarial or administrative assistants, and I am

:14:18.:14:22.

hugely resentful of the absentee MPs claim to represent constituencies in

:14:23.:14:26.

Northern Ireland and who are able to get thousands of pounds of

:14:27.:14:34.

taxpayers' money. Well, I could give given the diplomatic answer to lots

:14:35.:14:39.

of that, but as you will find on my record, I think my first ever point

:14:40.:14:45.

of order was actually around, why do Sinn Fein get paid and have not come

:14:46.:14:48.

here? I not going to contradict myself on that issue. You know my

:14:49.:14:53.

view on this. Actually it is about making sure we create the right

:14:54.:14:57.

political space in which all parties can find... We're talking about the

:14:58.:15:00.

future of the Assembly. And we can create the right political space in

:15:01.:15:04.

which people can find agreement and come together to offer the

:15:05.:15:08.

leadership which Northern Ireland needs. I could engage in that

:15:09.:15:14.

partisan debate. My comments are already on the record, I won't

:15:15.:15:22.

contradict yourself. -- I won't contradict myself. I sincerely hope

:15:23.:15:27.

that a deal can be reached within these talks. That is an outcome

:15:28.:15:35.

which we will all work towards. But it will be the parties need to take

:15:36.:15:41.

the mantle, deliver inclusion and stable government for the people of

:15:42.:15:46.

Northern Ireland. If they do not, it will be for this or any future

:15:47.:15:49.

government to continue to do what is required to ensure Northern Ireland

:15:50.:15:55.

has the political ability that it needs. This bill will provide a

:15:56.:16:01.

framework... A sentence and a bit to go! I thank the minister for giving

:16:02.:16:08.

way. I have listened very carefully to what he has said and I know his

:16:09.:16:12.

own background as a former serving member of the Armed Forces. I would

:16:13.:16:18.

not want him to underestimate the importance of the Armed Forces

:16:19.:16:22.

covenant as an issue in these negotiations. And it just leaves me

:16:23.:16:30.

a little bit concerned when I hear the spokesman for the opposition and

:16:31.:16:34.

now the minister referring to issues in the negotiations and making no

:16:35.:16:40.

reference to the Armed Forces covenant. And I would not want him

:16:41.:16:44.

to conclude his remarks without making reference to how important

:16:45.:16:48.

that issue is and it's full and fermentation in Northern Ireland and

:16:49.:16:53.

that that is important to getting agreement. Can I thank the

:16:54.:17:01.

honourable gentleman, the right honourable gentleman, for his

:17:02.:17:06.

intervention? I appreciate this is about putting stuff on the record,

:17:07.:17:09.

and think with my own service record, and I can say that my time

:17:10.:17:13.

in Northern Ireland is an issue I have spoken a great deal about, and

:17:14.:17:19.

I will never shy away from wanting to make sure that our armed services

:17:20.:17:24.

and veterans have the best possible... And it is important that

:17:25.:17:28.

we constantly challenge people who have the responsibility to deliver

:17:29.:17:32.

that, and I assure you, as long as I have the opportunity to do so from

:17:33.:17:37.

this position, that will always be one of the things in the forefront

:17:38.:17:42.

of my mind. So, to close, this bill will provide the framework for

:17:43.:17:48.

success and we hope that it will be the catalyst for the resumption of

:17:49.:17:52.

devolved government. And so therefore, Mr Deputy Speaker, with

:17:53.:17:57.

that in mind, I would be grateful if we could proceed with support across

:17:58.:18:00.

the House, and as such, I propose this bill be read a second time. The

:18:01.:18:06.

question is that the bill now be read a second time. The eyes have

:18:07.:18:14.

it. Under the order of the House today, we shall now moved to the

:18:15.:18:15.

committee of the whole house... Order. Northern Ireland Regional

:18:16.:18:44.

Appointments And Regional Rates Bill. The question is that clause

:18:45.:18:48.

one stand part of the bill. I think one stand part of the bill. I think

:18:49.:19:00.

the ayes have it. We now come to any clause to.

:19:01.:19:11.

The ayes have it. We now come to clause three. The question is that

:19:12.:19:21.

clause three stand part of the bill. The ayes have it. The question is

:19:22.:19:28.

that I do report the bill without amendment to the House. The ayes

:19:29.:19:30.

have it then struck order, order. Order. Under the order of the House

:19:31.:20:14.

today, we shall now moved to third reading of the bill. Minister to

:20:15.:20:23.

move bird breeding? I beg to move that the bill be read a third time.

:20:24.:20:29.

I thank all members who have contributed to the day's

:20:30.:20:35.

proceedings. They provided valuable exchanges on this bill. It is made

:20:36.:20:40.

very clear the unequivocal support of this government and this House

:20:41.:20:45.

the devolved government in Northern Ireland. I extend my thanks to Her

:20:46.:20:52.

Majesty's opposition and the SNP and all others for their support for the

:20:53.:20:56.

bill and for agreeing to its faster than usual passage through this

:20:57.:21:06.

House. This bill provides the framework within which the parties

:21:07.:21:10.

may come together, reach agreement and form an executive. If agreement

:21:11.:21:21.

can be reached, they can get on with the resumption of devolved

:21:22.:21:25.

government. This is what the people of Northern Ireland voted for on the

:21:26.:21:28.

2nd of March and must remain the focus. This bill will also provide

:21:29.:21:32.

flexibility for an incoming government to act in the best

:21:33.:21:35.

interests of Northern Ireland and the space for the parties to

:21:36.:21:39.

conclude a deal. I am very much appreciative of the support of the

:21:40.:21:44.

House that this approach. I was grateful also for the support there

:21:45.:21:49.

was for the government taking the exceptional step of this Parliament

:21:50.:21:53.

setting a regional rate for Northern Ireland this year. Very much a step

:21:54.:22:02.

we had hoped to have avoided, this is an essential move for securing

:22:03.:22:08.

greater some financial certainty for individuals and businesses in

:22:09.:22:11.

Northern Ireland and stands alongside the remarks I made about

:22:12.:22:16.

the Budget situation in making clear that this government will always

:22:17.:22:21.

uphold its responsibilities for political stability and good

:22:22.:22:26.

governance in Northern Ireland. In conclusion, I am grateful to all

:22:27.:22:29.

honourable and right honourable members for the support of the

:22:30.:22:34.

passage of this bill. Can I thank my officials for the support they have

:22:35.:22:38.

provided as well as well as the support of the Northern Ireland

:22:39.:22:40.

civil service and my honourable friend? This bill provides this and

:22:41.:22:48.

space deal to be done, which is what business, community groups and

:22:49.:22:54.

individuals want to see. I am sure I speak for the whole of this House

:22:55.:23:02.

when I express my sincere hopes that all sides use the opportunity of

:23:03.:23:06.

this bill to secure the resumption of devolved government in Northern

:23:07.:23:10.

Ireland at the earliest opportunity, so I asked members to support this

:23:11.:23:15.

bill on its third reading. The question is that the bill now be

:23:16.:23:25.

read a third time. I take great pleasure, and I have nothing more to

:23:26.:23:34.

say. The bill has not been amended. We will support it. I did want to

:23:35.:23:40.

wish all the parties the very best in the negotiations and hope an

:23:41.:23:46.

agreement can be reached soon, and that institutions are restored as

:23:47.:23:51.

soon as possible. No further speakers? The question is that the

:23:52.:23:55.

bill now be read a third time. As many as are of the opinion, say

:23:56.:23:59.

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes habit, the ayes habit. We now

:24:00.:24:08.

come to the next part, which will be moving various motions. I put in

:24:09.:24:14.

motion 's 3-5, minister to move. The question is also as in the order

:24:15.:24:20.

paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:24:21.:24:26.

"no".. The ayes have it. The question is this House do now

:24:27.:24:34.

adjourn. Mr Deputy Speaker, it is a pleasure to be here, to see off

:24:35.:24:42.

another day. Before I begin, I would like to thank the director of monkey

:24:43.:24:50.

world, the International Primate rescue centre in my constituency

:24:51.:24:54.

which assists governments all around the world in stopping the smuggling,

:24:55.:25:00.

abuse or neglect of primates. Her time and input into this debate has

:25:01.:25:06.

been invaluable. It seems barely credible that in this age of

:25:07.:25:09.

Enlightenment animal welfare and animal rights, it is still entirely

:25:10.:25:16.

legal to walk into a pet shop and buy any one of 66 species of monkey

:25:17.:25:23.

as easy as you can buy a goldfish in a plastic bag. These monkeys, all

:25:24.:25:29.

types of marmosets tamarind and squirrel monkey, are snatched away

:25:30.:25:34.

from their families as infants and sold in bird cages for over ?1000

:25:35.:25:40.

each. There are no licensing demands or special regulations for their

:25:41.:25:48.

care. The pages of loot, for example, full of advertisements for

:25:49.:25:53.

these animals. A brief search in the Internet shows it is awash with

:25:54.:25:59.

monkeys for sale. Supplements for the diet and advice on looking after

:26:00.:26:07.

them. At least half of them are scams, according to Doctor Cronin.

:26:08.:26:13.

Many demand large amounts of money up front for the checks and

:26:14.:26:17.

transportation, all too often for nonexistent monkeys. And while not

:26:18.:26:24.

all breeders are unscrupulous, the public and the primates need to be

:26:25.:26:28.

protected. It is a fact that most buyers are well-meaning, wanting

:26:29.:26:35.

only an entertaining and lovable pet, which can be fed on scraps from

:26:36.:26:41.

the table, but the truth is that almost no domestic coma is equipped

:26:42.:26:48.

to look after primates properly. -- owner. When, months after buying one

:26:49.:26:53.

of these tiny creatures, the call for help because they are lying on

:26:54.:26:58.

the floor of the cage, crying, it is far too late. Most South American

:26:59.:27:09.

monkeys are extremely sensitive to a lack of vitamin D. The lack of

:27:10.:27:16.

sunlight in the British bird cage deprives them of this crucial

:27:17.:27:21.

nutrient, as you would expect. Without it, they can develop

:27:22.:27:26.

Ricketts, virtually overnight. And while, with the right treatment is

:27:27.:27:31.

an expert hands, the Ricketts can be reversed, it causes agonising skill

:27:32.:27:39.

it will damage. Even without Ricketts, a marmoset frequently

:27:40.:27:47.

becomes aggressive or withdrawn as its confinement takes hold. Starved

:27:48.:27:57.

of its natural habitat and unable to mix socially with other monkeys. It

:27:58.:28:03.

is always a pleasure to listen to anything that the honourable

:28:04.:28:07.

gentleman has to say. We agree on two things, we need to be out of

:28:08.:28:13.

Europe, but does he feel in this instance this is one instance where

:28:14.:28:17.

we should follow the lead of 15 other European countries which are

:28:18.:28:25.

banned keeping primates as pets? It is always a pleasure to be in the

:28:26.:28:28.

same place as my honourable friend and we are in the same place on this

:28:29.:28:32.

debate as well. I will come on to that point, if I may, and a possible

:28:33.:28:37.

solution which I know the minister Doctor Cronin has heard. As I was

:28:38.:28:54.

saying, these monkeys are suffering. Compare this or those circumstances

:28:55.:28:58.

in a cage and someone's kitchen to the wild, where marmosets pair bond

:28:59.:29:05.

for life, bring up extended, exuberant families, where every

:29:06.:29:09.

monkey participates in caring for the younger ones. They are never

:29:10.:29:15.

learn and lived for 15 years. Tragically, barely weaned infants

:29:16.:29:19.

are handed over by unscrupulous breeders who rely partly for the

:29:20.:29:23.

profit on the fact that marmosets almost always bet wins after a

:29:24.:29:29.

gestation period about four months. The males are sold on, the females

:29:30.:29:37.

are kept for breeding. They may survive physically, but captivity is

:29:38.:29:42.

nothing short of torture. Remember, these are primates, sharing over 90%

:29:43.:29:50.

of the DNA with the human cousins, us. This rises to approximately

:29:51.:29:59.

98.6% in chimps and Bonner boths. Our closest relatives on the

:30:00.:30:05.

evolutionary tree. In the cases, such treatment would be considered

:30:06.:30:09.

immoral and indeed there are laws to protect them. Almost exactly a year

:30:10.:30:15.

ago, Doctor Cronin, the former Genesis front man and I delivered a

:30:16.:30:22.

petition bearing 110,000 signatures to Downing Street. The UK Primate

:30:23.:30:29.

pet trade petition asked the government to change the law so that

:30:30.:30:34.

all monkeys are guaranteed standard of care. This is already mandatory

:30:35.:30:44.

in zoos and wildlife parks. The minister, who is very kindly

:30:45.:30:47.

attending the debate tonight, said he would put forward a law for a

:30:48.:30:52.

system that would ensure appropriate care. Regrettably since then, we

:30:53.:30:59.

have heard nothing. That is understandable, given the recent

:31:00.:31:03.

political peoples. My colleague and friend has been extremely busy. But

:31:04.:31:07.

the number of primates kept as pets in the UK is thought to be

:31:08.:31:20.

1200-5000. Certainly, Doctor Cronin says she has been an exponential

:31:21.:31:24.

explosion in the British monkey pet trade with ever-growing numbers of

:31:25.:31:29.

monkeys needing rescuing. In the last recent years, monkey world has

:31:30.:31:37.

rescued 160 monkeys. Of these, 53 were rescued since 2012 in an

:31:38.:31:44.

accelerated catastrophe caused mainly by social media. Many rescued

:31:45.:31:52.

primates come promptly sent, well-meaning but inexperienced

:31:53.:31:54.

owners who were duped into thinking they had bought pets that were easy

:31:55.:32:00.

to look after. In a recent police raid, Doctor Cronin was asked to

:32:01.:32:05.

rescue a tiny infant marmoset which was freezing to death in a bird cage

:32:06.:32:11.

in a darkened city flat. It is proved, she says, that the animal

:32:12.:32:17.

welfare act 2006 is not working. The act was passed to cover the care and

:32:18.:32:22.

welfare of all animals, domestic and wild. Under this act, Defra

:32:23.:32:28.

published a code of practice for the welfare of privately kept nonhuman

:32:29.:32:33.

primates in 2010 which explained among other things that it was

:32:34.:32:37.

inappropriate to keep these animals alone in domestic settings for the

:32:38.:32:42.

purposes of companionship or personal interest. In March 2016,

:32:43.:32:47.

Defra announced it planned to review the code of practice and make

:32:48.:32:50.

recommendations for any changes to the code within a year. However, the

:32:51.:32:58.

library has been unable to find any information on the result of this

:32:59.:33:03.

review or any plans or proposals. Doctor Cronin says that, while the

:33:04.:33:08.

animal welfare act can be enforced, it does not enforce the conditions

:33:09.:33:11.

that those primates should be kept in. Instead, it is most often used

:33:12.:33:23.

to prosecute cruelty or neglect cases after the fact. Currently

:33:24.:33:26.

there are five different laws that cover the care of anyone monkey in

:33:27.:33:34.

this country, the zoo licensing act has the strongest laws governing

:33:35.:33:37.

species specific care and applies to any parts which are open to the

:33:38.:33:44.

public. Under this act, 200 government inspectors on constant

:33:45.:33:47.

inspector regimes apply extremely rigorous standards covering animal

:33:48.:33:54.

welfare, hygiene, safety, ethics another. Under British law, primates

:33:55.:34:02.

are divided into two classifications, non-dangerous

:34:03.:34:04.

primates, those that can be bought and sold without checking and

:34:05.:34:09.

regulation, in the 66 species I have talked about. The rest are

:34:10.:34:15.

classified as dangerous, as specified under the dangerous wild

:34:16.:34:21.

animals act 1976, which focuses on protecting the owners not animals

:34:22.:34:24.

and fails to acknowledge any of duty of care for them. Interestingly,

:34:25.:34:28.

smaller monkeys were declassified on the basis of the size and shape of

:34:29.:34:36.

the canine teeth. Third the pet shop licence laws cover pet shops selling

:34:37.:34:45.

primates. Four the performing animals act covers circus animals,

:34:46.:34:49.

and fifth and finally, the scientific procedures act which

:34:50.:34:54.

covers animals in laboratories. Doctor Cronin believes it is not

:34:55.:34:58.

logical that the same monkey could be subject to all the above laws to

:34:59.:35:02.

a greater or lesser degree, particularly as none seem to work

:35:03.:35:08.

properly. For example, she says that monkey world's most chronic problem

:35:09.:35:13.

is with illegal trade in primates as pets in the United Kingdom commerce

:35:14.:35:14.

had we solve this problem? They all advocate an outright ban on

:35:15.:35:30.

the ownership and trading of primates. However, Dr Cronin

:35:31.:35:34.

believes such a move is neither realistic nor necessary. Si suggests

:35:35.:35:39.

that we need a real, practical solution which ensures these small

:35:40.:35:42.

primates are kept appropriately, and I agree with her. Several species

:35:43.:35:50.

needs to be registered under the Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976.

:35:51.:35:53.

Alternatively, a register of primates kept as pets could be

:35:54.:35:56.

lamented, like dangerous dogs, for example. A suggestion made by the

:35:57.:36:01.

minister himself at a meeting with Dr Cronin and me last June. There is

:36:02.:36:07.

also the Zoo Licensing Pact, Which, Hull East By Local Authorities,

:36:08.:36:17.

Could Be Imposed. If Required, The Existing Large National Team Of

:36:18.:36:22.

Professional Zoo Is Could Be Used To Assess Any Application. Extending

:36:23.:36:29.

This Already Existing Standard Of Care To The Pet Trade Will Prevent

:36:30.:36:34.

The Sale Of Individual Monkeys Over-the-counter or over the

:36:35.:36:39.

internet. To those physically do not understand what they are taking on.

:36:40.:36:45.

It seems to Dr Cronin and I and the many others, that the best solution

:36:46.:36:49.

is to require private owners to meet the same standards as those imposed

:36:50.:36:55.

on zoos and game parks. If those standards were applied, as I'm sure

:36:56.:36:59.

we would all agree, there would be no domestic user who could possibly

:37:00.:37:04.

meet those standards, therefore keeping a monkey in 1's home, garage

:37:05.:37:09.

or anywhere else, would be impossible. I have therefore,

:37:10.:37:17.

finally and humbly asked the minister to consider please changing

:37:18.:37:22.

the existing laws, as he suggested last year, to make sure that all

:37:23.:37:27.

primates sold in Britain are properly protected, as they surely

:37:28.:37:36.

deserve to be. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. I would like to

:37:37.:37:40.

congratulate my honourable friend the member for South Dorset for

:37:41.:37:42.

securing this debate and the welfare of primates. I know that this is an

:37:43.:37:47.

issue that he has championed for a number of years and I know that

:37:48.:37:54.

Monkey World is located in his constituency. This has been the

:37:55.:37:58.

subject of the number of bills over the years. And I do recall my

:37:59.:38:07.

honourable friend and his constituent, Dr Alison Cronin, the

:38:08.:38:10.

director of Monkey World, met me last year to discuss this topic. And

:38:11.:38:14.

I was very pleased to have the opportunity to visit Wild Futures in

:38:15.:38:19.

Cornwall, who have similar concerns and have also raised this issue. I

:38:20.:38:24.

want to begin by talking about the welfare needs of the primates. I've

:38:25.:38:32.

listened to some of the examples that my honourable friend has given,

:38:33.:38:36.

where primates have been found to be kept in inadequate conditions, and

:38:37.:38:41.

what they can develop as a reaction to that. And this is obviously

:38:42.:38:46.

completely unacceptable, and it is also unacceptable in law. Under the

:38:47.:38:54.

existing law, the Animal Welfare Racked 2006, anyone keeping an

:38:55.:38:58.

animal must ensure that its welfare needs are provided for, in addition

:38:59.:39:02.

to not causing it any unnecessary suffering. This was one of the key

:39:03.:39:08.

developments of the 2006 fact from the animals lacked that had gone

:39:09.:39:11.

before it. This applies to whether you're keeping a mouse, dog all

:39:12.:39:15.

primates. Failure to provide for an animal's welfare is a breach of the

:39:16.:39:21.

Animal Welfare Racked 2006. The Government understands that primates

:39:22.:39:27.

require special requirements, as demonstrated in the statutory code

:39:28.:39:30.

of practice for the welfare of privately kept nonhuman primates, to

:39:31.:39:37.

which my honourable friend referred. This makes clear that primates

:39:38.:39:42.

should not be considered as pets in the accepted sense of the words.

:39:43.:39:45.

They are not a species that can be treated as part of the family, in

:39:46.:39:51.

the way that a dog or cat might. In addition, the code goes on at some

:39:52.:39:56.

length to describe, for instance, in section one, stating, all gregarious

:39:57.:40:03.

social primates species should display physical and vocal and

:40:04.:40:06.

visual displays appropriate to the species. These include but are not

:40:07.:40:13.

limited to social grooming, food sharing, communal resting and

:40:14.:40:15.

interactive play, as appropriate to the species. Primates should be

:40:16.:40:21.

housed in stable groups of sufficient size and composition to

:40:22.:40:24.

allow the full expression of these behaviours. And it goes on to state

:40:25.:40:29.

that social interaction with companions of the same species not

:40:30.:40:32.

only provides essential stimulation and learning opportunities, but but

:40:33.:40:37.

also provides a source of comfort, reassurance and enjoyment, and that

:40:38.:40:42.

removing a primate from its family or social group may have adverse

:40:43.:40:47.

psychological, emotional or physical welfare implications of. Section two

:40:48.:40:52.

of the code goes on to describe again in some depth the environment

:40:53.:41:00.

in which primates should be kept. For instance, it sets out in some

:41:01.:41:05.

detail that in planning a suitable environment, the keeper should

:41:06.:41:10.

provide a suitable location, an appropriate amount of space, an

:41:11.:41:14.

appropriate enclosure with sufficient three-dimensional

:41:15.:41:16.

content, including climbing structures to facilitate species

:41:17.:41:21.

specific behaviour, the correct temperature, humidity, ventilation,

:41:22.:41:24.

noise levels and lighting appropriate feeding sleeping sites,

:41:25.:41:29.

a means of an location for visual welfare assessment, a method of safe

:41:30.:41:34.

capture, handling and isolation of the animals, the prevent escape and

:41:35.:41:46.

entry by all for people. Also a good hygiene to avoid disease

:41:47.:41:49.

transmission, a safe environment for the animals, a good regime of animal

:41:50.:41:52.

enrichment and a wide range of appropriate behaviours. So, Mr

:41:53.:41:59.

Speaker, Mr Deputy Speaker, anyone keeping a prime in -- a primate in

:42:00.:42:07.

solitary conditions or in a small cage of reading it an inappropriate

:42:08.:42:10.

diet would already be breaking the law and could face up to six months

:42:11.:42:14.

in prison. This is a fundamental point of the Animal Welfare Act and

:42:15.:42:20.

is one of the reasons why the animal welfare and veteran reorganisation

:42:21.:42:22.

is widely regarded the actor as being a success. Primates are

:42:23.:42:27.

long-lived, intelligent, socially, let's animals. They engage in

:42:28.:42:31.

imaginative problem-solving, form intricate social relationships and

:42:32.:42:35.

display context patterns of behaviour. Being social is a

:42:36.:42:38.

striking feature of primates and perhaps the most important in terms

:42:39.:42:43.

of meeting their needs. With few exceptions, they live in complex

:42:44.:42:46.

societies that can comprise tens of individual animals. In relation to

:42:47.:42:52.

their total life history, primates have long infant and juvenile phases

:42:53.:42:56.

with social interdependence are caring long after nutritional

:42:57.:42:59.

weaning. The period is crucial for learning about physical and social

:43:00.:43:03.

environment, parenting, survival and reproduction, and all primate

:43:04.:43:07.

species are long-lived and need to be managed in old age. It is

:43:08.:43:12.

therefore... I give way. I am listening very intently, can he just

:43:13.:43:19.

clarify to me that what he's saying is that the law is already

:43:20.:43:22.

sufficient to deal with this problem? If that is the case, why

:43:23.:43:26.

are more and more monkeys being kept in these conditions and why is Dr

:43:27.:43:29.

Cronin having to rescue more and more as the years go by? I was going

:43:30.:43:34.

to come on to that point. But I think there is an issue here around

:43:35.:43:37.

educating people about this code, raising the prominence of the code

:43:38.:43:41.

and making sure that local authorities understand what is

:43:42.:43:49.

required to be unforced. So, it is important for anyone thinking of

:43:50.:43:51.

buying an animal to understand what is involved and the associated costs

:43:52.:43:58.

of looking after that animal. In the case of a primate it is even more

:43:59.:44:01.

important, because very few people in the country possess the necessary

:44:02.:44:05.

skills to look after such animals. I want to turn to the point of

:44:06.:44:10.

irresponsible owners. Defra receives many representations from people

:44:11.:44:14.

about problems associated with the welfare of animals, both exotic or

:44:15.:44:17.

domesticated. Most of these problems can be traced back to a common to

:44:18.:44:22.

nominate a, which is irresponsible ownership. Some animals can also be

:44:23.:44:25.

dangerous to people and to native wildlife, if not kept appropriately.

:44:26.:44:30.

They can also carry diseases transmissible to humans. Want to

:44:31.:44:38.

turn to an issue around advertising, because I do believe this is a key

:44:39.:44:43.

area. And my honourable friend mentioned the way primates are often

:44:44.:44:49.

advertised for sale online. The Pet Advertising Advisory Group, which is

:44:50.:44:54.

a collection of veterinary organisations, has managed to set

:44:55.:45:00.

minimum standards online which covers various advertising

:45:01.:45:05.

organisations. The standards of those subscribing to the code, which

:45:06.:45:13.

include the largest pacified sites dealing with pet sales, does include

:45:14.:45:17.

a complete ban on the advertising of primates. And this is an encouraging

:45:18.:45:21.

development and we would like to see other online providers adopt these

:45:22.:45:26.

minimum standards. My honourable friend mentioned that I did meet him

:45:27.:45:30.

and indeed others to discuss the laws around this issue of keeping

:45:31.:45:38.

primates. And while there is now an issue that my Noble Friend Lord

:45:39.:45:40.

Gardiner has taken responsibility for since last July, I can tell him

:45:41.:45:46.

that one of the things I did do and was keen to deliver, as the minister

:45:47.:45:53.

for companion animals and animal welfare, was to get a review of

:45:54.:45:59.

animal licensing establishments. And in February, Defra published its

:46:00.:46:03.

next steps document, which sets out how we will change the law in

:46:04.:46:06.

relation to licensed animal establishments. I believe that this

:46:07.:46:10.

is going to add additional barriers and safeguards when it comes to the

:46:11.:46:15.

sale of primates. As regards the selling of pet animals, vendors will

:46:16.:46:21.

have to any prospective buyer, and this applies whether it is from a

:46:22.:46:26.

traditional pet shop or a sale online. And I believe this will do a

:46:27.:46:31.

great deal to require in law that the existing code is publicised and

:46:32.:46:37.

given to any prospective buyer. In addition, vendors will in future

:46:38.:46:41.

have to comply with statutory conditions setting minimum welfare

:46:42.:46:46.

standards in line with the Animal Welfare Act 2006. And this is an

:46:47.:46:50.

extra lane of protection for all animals being sold from licensed

:46:51.:46:53.

premises. It also creates further barriers to any trade in primates

:46:54.:46:58.

since it raises the prominence of that code and it means that nobody

:46:59.:47:05.

would be able to sell a primate unless they have been licensed by a

:47:06.:47:09.

local authority and a local authority would not be able to

:47:10.:47:11.

license any such seller unless they complied fully with the code. So,

:47:12.:47:23.

finally, it is important to note as well that in the case of granting

:47:24.:47:29.

licences, it's also the case that a local authority is able to list the

:47:30.:47:34.

types of species which are able to be sold and to preclude people from

:47:35.:47:39.

selling certain species. And it is therefore possible and highly likely

:47:40.:47:43.

that local authorities will take an incredibly tough line on anybody

:47:44.:47:49.

selling primates and the likelihood is that there would only be a tiny

:47:50.:47:54.

number of specialist, skilled collectors who really understand

:47:55.:47:57.

what they're doing who would ever be licensed to do such a thing.

:47:58.:48:02.

Finally, where I concede there is perhaps more work to do, to raise

:48:03.:48:07.

the quality of inspections and the consistency of enforcement, so we

:48:08.:48:11.

will improve the quality of local authority inspections by providing

:48:12.:48:14.

local authority officers with guidance and where necessary

:48:15.:48:19.

additional expertise if they needed, so that we can strengthen the

:48:20.:48:22.

consistency of enforcement. My honourable friend mentioned the

:48:23.:48:28.

Dangerous Wild Animals Act 1976. The species covered by the actor were

:48:29.:48:37.

last reviewed between 2005 and 2006, with the schedule of animals

:48:38.:48:39.

considered to be dangerous being amended in 2007. Certain animals,

:48:40.:48:43.

including a number of species of smaller primates were removed from

:48:44.:48:49.

the schedule as they were considered to be no more dangerous than

:48:50.:48:52.

domestic cats or dogs. At the time of the review, there were no records

:48:53.:48:57.

of serious incidents involving the primates removed from the list. But

:48:58.:49:02.

it is also important to recognise that the Dangerous Wild Animals Act

:49:03.:49:05.

1976 is as it says on the tin, about regulating the control and the

:49:06.:49:11.

keeping of animals deemed to be wild and dangerous. It is not in itself

:49:12.:49:16.

about animal welfare issues. Now, finally, I want to deal with the Zoo

:49:17.:49:22.

Licensing Pact 1981. I commend the proportionate approach taken by Dr

:49:23.:49:29.

Cronin in coming up with a pragmatic middle solution beyond outwork and

:49:30.:49:34.

is towards strengthening the licensing. As I've explained, we

:49:35.:49:38.

believe that the small changes that we've made to the profile of the

:49:39.:49:44.

primates code within the law, through the changes we intend to

:49:45.:49:52.

make through changes to the Pet Animals Active and others, goes a

:49:53.:49:56.

long way to strengthening that code. When it comes to the Zoo Licensing

:49:57.:50:06.

Pact, this sets standards for zoos. By law, all zoos are required to

:50:07.:50:10.

have a licence, although there are exemptions for some in specific

:50:11.:50:12.

circumstances. The standards also set up houses

:50:13.:50:29.

should meet educational requirements and how public safety should be

:50:30.:50:33.

secured. The individual owners of the keepers of primates, these may

:50:34.:50:41.

not be appropriate. We currently considered therefore the standards

:50:42.:50:46.

set out in the Primate code of practice, providing them with the

:50:47.:50:51.

same level of protection as in zoos. In both cases, the animal welfare

:50:52.:50:55.

act applies and we would expect this to be used in cases of cruelty or

:50:56.:51:03.

Paul welfare. In conclusion, there is considerable debate about how

:51:04.:51:07.

many primates are kept in private ownership in this country. There are

:51:08.:51:13.

estimates that it could be 100000 and Select Committee have previous

:51:14.:51:17.

raised concerns about the figures around. Figures tend to range

:51:18.:51:24.

between estimates of 1200 and 5000, but the really important thing is

:51:25.:51:28.

not so much the numbers but the standard of welfare. That is the

:51:29.:51:32.

overriding factor. There are already laws in this area. We are looking to

:51:33.:51:37.

update and improve these wherever necessary and wherever we can and I

:51:38.:51:41.

do believe we should continue to explore with stakeholders how to

:51:42.:51:44.

reach more owners and potential owners to make them better

:51:45.:51:48.

understand about the importance of Primate welfare. Once again, I would

:51:49.:51:53.

like to commend it honourable friend of securing this debate and commend

:51:54.:51:58.

Doctor Cronin for the approach he has taken. I do hope that he will

:51:59.:52:12.

continue to work with us as we strengthen the prominence and

:52:13.:52:16.

profile of the Primate code within the animal welfare act so that we

:52:17.:52:19.

can tackle some of the problems he has highlighted this evening. The

:52:20.:52:24.

question is that this House to now adjourned. As many as are of the

:52:25.:52:27.

opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Order,

:52:28.:52:29.

order! No one can deny that politicians are

:52:30.:53:35.

pretty important people, as I am sure they would be the first to

:53:36.:53:39.

remind us. After all, it is up to them to make the laws which govern

:53:40.:53:44.

our lives. You and I might call them bigwigs and the origin of this word

:53:45.:53:49.

can be found in Parliament's judicial heritage. Westminster Hall

:53:50.:53:54.

and the Houses of Parliament where the meeting

:53:55.:53:56.

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