Browse content similar to 04/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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real potential for rare diseases and every other that she mentions. | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
Low-mac order, we must now move on. Urgent question, Angela Rayner. | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. To ask the Secretary of State if she will make | :00:14. | :00:17. | |
a statement on the Government plans for funding on education. Thank you, | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
Mr Speaker. This Government is determined to ensure that all | :00:24. | :00:29. | |
pupils, regardless of where they live, receive a world-class | :00:30. | :00:32. | |
education. Over the past seven years we have made significant progress | :00:33. | :00:35. | |
was that there are now 1.8 million more children in schools that are | :00:36. | :00:38. | |
pretty good understanding than they're worth in 2010. And today we | :00:39. | :00:45. | |
saw and percentage point rise in Key stage two results as pupils and | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
teachers rise to meet the challenge of these new, more demanding | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
curriculum and assessments. Looking beyond skills, the Government has | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
prioritised funding for all phases of education and we announced we | :00:58. | :01:03. | |
would be investing an additional ?1 billion a year early indication | :01:04. | :01:07. | |
entitlements, including funding for the new 30 hours entitlement and | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
funding to increase the per child rate that providers receive. We | :01:11. | :01:17. | |
protected the national base rate per pupil from 16 to 19-year-olds in | :01:18. | :01:22. | |
sixth form, sixth form colleges and further education colleges in | :01:23. | :01:25. | |
England, and in the spring Budget, the Chancellor announced new | :01:26. | :01:30. | |
investment in technical education for 16 to 19-year-olds rising to an | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
additional ?500 million per year. We have maintained funding for the | :01:36. | :01:38. | |
adult education budget which supports adult skills participation, | :01:39. | :01:43. | |
in cash terms, ?1.5 billion per year. We have limited reforms to | :01:44. | :01:50. | |
higher education to drive greater competition and teaching standards, | :01:51. | :01:52. | |
together this adds up to a comprehensive package of support for | :01:53. | :01:57. | |
education at all stages of life. We want to ensure that every school has | :01:58. | :02:01. | |
the resources it needs of which is why we have protected the schools | :02:02. | :02:05. | |
budget in real terms since 2010. We set out our intention to increase | :02:06. | :02:11. | |
funding further in our manifesto, as well as continuing to protect the | :02:12. | :02:15. | |
pupil premium to support the most disadvantaged pupils. We recognise | :02:16. | :02:20. | |
that schools are facing pressures, beyond the total amount of funding | :02:21. | :02:25. | |
going into our schools, we know there are two crucial questions. | :02:26. | :02:28. | |
Firstly, we know that how schools use the money is important in | :02:29. | :02:32. | |
delivering the best outcomes for pupils. We will continue to provide | :02:33. | :02:37. | |
support to help schools use their funding effectively. Second, we know | :02:38. | :02:42. | |
that how funny is distributed across the country is anachronistic and | :02:43. | :02:46. | |
unfair. -- how funding is distributed cost of the current | :02:47. | :02:49. | |
system is in urgent need of reform. We have gone further than any | :02:50. | :02:53. | |
previous government in reforming school funding. The second stage of | :02:54. | :02:57. | |
our consultation on a national funding formula for schools closed | :02:58. | :03:03. | |
in March. I am grateful to all the 25,000 people who responded as well | :03:04. | :03:06. | |
as two honourable members who contributed in the more than ten | :03:07. | :03:09. | |
hours of Parliamentary debates on school funding and any face-to-face | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
meetings during the period. It is important we consider carefully how | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
to proceed and as outlined in the manifesto, we will make sure that no | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
school has its budget cut as a result of the new formula, and we | :03:21. | :03:26. | |
remain committed to working with Parliament and bringing forward | :03:27. | :03:29. | |
proposals that will command a consensus. We will set out our plans | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
shortly. Angela Rayner. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think the Minister for | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
schools. But there is no sign of the Education Secretary, and where is | :03:41. | :03:44. | |
the Prime Minister? She is not running her party, she is running | :03:45. | :03:51. | |
away from her party. The Education Secretary bid for extra money for | :03:52. | :03:56. | |
schools this week and not at Cabinet, but on the front page of | :03:57. | :04:00. | |
the Telegraph, and no wonder, when Arlene Foster got ?1 billion, she | :04:01. | :04:03. | |
must be the most expensive right-winger since Cristiano | :04:04. | :04:09. | |
Ronaldo! Can he confirm there was an increase in school funding of ?150 | :04:10. | :04:15. | |
per pupil in Northern Ireland, and is there any extra Treasury funding | :04:16. | :04:19. | |
for education and the rest of the country or not? He has said the new | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
funding formula will avoid cash cuts, so where is the funding for | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
that coming from? New money or just cuts elsewhere? When he says no | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
school will lose out, can they confirm this is in cash terms and | :04:32. | :04:38. | |
not in real terms? They promised an extra ?4 billion for schools in the | :04:39. | :04:42. | |
manifesto, is that now Government policy and how much of that is for | :04:43. | :04:46. | |
each year? They were going to raise the money by scrapping infant school | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
meals, is that still policy? Will he provide universal free breakfasts in | :04:53. | :04:55. | |
primary schools and does he finally have proper costings for this? And | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
is he still planning to fund new and expanded grammar schools, or has | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
that now been abandoned as well? The Education Secretary was not the only | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
one haggling with the Chancellor in the Sunday papers. Her predecessor, | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
now the Environment Secretary, said he always listened to public sector | :05:13. | :05:15. | |
pay bodies. He must have forgotten he actually abolished the school | :05:16. | :05:20. | |
support staff negotiating body. Will the Minister now look at reinstating | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
the Peabody for support staff, and does he support the lifting of the | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
1% pay cap in education? The First Secretary also called for a national | :05:30. | :05:32. | |
debate on tuition fees so will he give us one on the floor of this | :05:33. | :05:37. | |
House? On the latest fee hike, which they sneaked through during the last | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
election campaign. Will he centrally funded any safety measure for school | :05:44. | :05:47. | |
builders for recess as well as looking at student issues? Two years | :05:48. | :05:52. | |
ago they were elected on a manifesto that promised no cuts to funding of | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
any school or any pupil. Will they finally meet that promise? Pies-mac | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
we are spending record amounts on schools. We are spending. Rising to | :06:03. | :06:12. | |
?42 billion in 2019 to 20. We will respond to the consultation shortly. | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
But what the public can be confident of is that what we promise in our | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
response will be deliverable, and it will be delivered. Most economic | :06:24. | :06:27. | |
commentators know that the wild promises made by Labour during the | :06:28. | :06:31. | |
general election to spend billions of pounds a year of taxpayers | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
bolt-macro money, nationalising the energy yesterday, what industry, the | :06:38. | :06:40. | |
rail industry, and the billions of pounds of promises made across a | :06:41. | :06:45. | |
whole range of spending areas was simply -- would soon be had over ?50 | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
billion a year to our annual deficits, leading to a crisis of | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
confidence amongst those they expect to lend the Government that money, | :06:55. | :06:58. | |
and that in turn would lead to a catastrophic damage to our economy, | :06:59. | :07:03. | |
an economy that today under this Government has produced strong | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
economic growth, Reckitt numbers of jobs and the lowest level of | :07:07. | :07:11. | |
unemployment for over 40 years. -- record numbers. It is a strong | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
economy that funds public service, it is economic chaos that leads | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
straight to the IMF and emergency cuts. The honourable lady raised a | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
number of questions. On the issue of the schoolteachers' review body, | :07:26. | :07:31. | |
that has submitted its 27th report this Secretary of State, which makes | :07:32. | :07:36. | |
recommendations for the 20 17th he award for teachers and school | :07:37. | :07:42. | |
leaders. -- 2017 pay award. We need to carefully consider that report | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
and we will publish the report together with our response and a | :07:45. | :07:50. | |
draft revised schoolteachers's pay and conditions document as soon as | :07:51. | :07:51. | |
possible. She asked about universal free | :07:52. | :08:00. | |
school meals in infant school. We have listened carefully to the | :08:01. | :08:03. | |
proposal to remove infant free school meals and we have decided | :08:04. | :08:06. | |
it's right to retain the existing provision. Universal infant free | :08:07. | :08:11. | |
school meals ensure children receive a nutritious meal during the day. It | :08:12. | :08:16. | |
saves hard-working families hundreds of pounds per year and boost | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
educational achievement, especially among children from the most | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds. She also asked about fire safety in schools. | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
We are conducting a survey of all the schools to find out what | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
cladding they have on those schools. Where we find schools over four | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
stories, or 18 metres that have cladding, we are asking fire | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
inspections to conduct an urgent inspection of the fire safety of | :08:43. | :08:46. | |
those schools. In view of the level of interest and other business I | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
have to accommodate, I appealed to colleagues to ask brief, preferably | :08:51. | :08:57. | |
single sentence questions. Tim Lawton. Whilst appreciating this | :08:58. | :09:01. | |
government has done more to address the fair funding formula, the | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
Minister knows from his own county, the worst funded shire county in the | :09:07. | :09:09. | |
country that head teachers face urgent decisions now. In view of the | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
fact the consultation has already been put back one year, can we have | :09:13. | :09:17. | |
an urgent steer on where this formula is going to be resolved | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
before the recess, because these challenges are facing our | :09:21. | :09:26. | |
headteachers now. I welcome the question, it was precisely to deal | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
with the historic underfunding of counties such as West Sussex and the | :09:31. | :09:34. | |
other 40 counties across this country that we went ahead and | :09:35. | :09:40. | |
consulted on a national funding formula. I think other governments | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
prior to this one should have done so in the past. I accept his | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
concerns. We already made announcements about 2017-18. We will | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
respond to the second phase of the consultation shortly and have a | :09:56. | :09:57. | |
response to that in the normal course of events. The Queen's Speech | :09:58. | :10:04. | |
has seen a U-turn after you turn with key flagship policies being | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
ditched, including grammar schools in order to appease backbenchers. | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
These U-turns make an absolute mockery of the Prime Minister's | :10:13. | :10:17. | |
strong and stable mantra. We welcome the U-turn on the decision to scrap | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
free school lunches, but again note and regret this decision was taken | :10:23. | :10:27. | |
not with the interest of pupils at heart, but rather to protect a | :10:28. | :10:30. | |
fragile Queen's Speech from a weakened government. In their | :10:31. | :10:37. | |
manifesto the Tories had planned to save 650 million from free school | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
meals and use it in the schools budget. It is now incumbent upon the | :10:42. | :10:45. | |
government to provide urgent confirmation on how they will stand | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
by their manifesto pledge to make sure no school has its budget cut. | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
Where will be 650 million come from, or have they decided to scrap this | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
additional funding? I have already responded to the point. We have | :11:03. | :11:05. | |
committed ourselves to the fact no school will lose funding as a | :11:06. | :11:09. | |
consequence of moving to the National fair funding formula. We | :11:10. | :11:13. | |
will respond in due course to that consultation and there she will find | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
out the answers to her questions. I would say to the honourable lady | :11:17. | :11:20. | |
that today we have announced, published results from the Key stage | :11:21. | :11:27. | |
two results showing an 8% result increase based on a new and more | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
demanding curriculum that is on a par with the best curricula for | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
primary schools in the world. I ask her to look at whether the Scottish | :11:36. | :11:42. | |
education system is in comparison to that in England. The solution is | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
fairer funding. Does my honourable friend agree that those who argue | :11:48. | :11:50. | |
for greater funding must be honest as to where it's coming from? For | :11:51. | :11:55. | |
every five minutes this statement continues, national debt, already at | :11:56. | :12:01. | |
1.7 trillion, increases by ?400,000. For those who argue for more | :12:02. | :12:05. | |
funding, are arguing for more debt being loaded on the children of our | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
schools. When we came into office in 2010 we inherited an annual budget | :12:10. | :12:16. | |
deficit of ?150 billion, we were spending 150 billion more in that | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
year than we received in income. That 150 billion is equal to about | :12:22. | :12:25. | |
9.4% of the total income of the country. We have reduced the deficit | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
thanks to the hard work of this government and the sacrifices the | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
people of this country have made. Notwithstanding those efforts we | :12:36. | :12:38. | |
have managed to protect core school funding in real terms and are | :12:39. | :12:45. | |
protecting record funding for schools. I urge the Minister to come | :12:46. | :12:53. | |
to Huddersfield to look at pupil funding and what teachers and head | :12:54. | :12:56. | |
teachers and support staff think of what he has said today. The fact of | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
the matter is morale is very low indeed in the teaching profession, | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
and that's largely down to him and his government. We are spending | :13:08. | :13:12. | |
record amounts of funding on our schools. ?41 billion this year. We | :13:13. | :13:16. | |
understand there are cost pressures that schools have to face with | :13:17. | :13:22. | |
higher employee National Insurance contributions and higher employer | :13:23. | :13:26. | |
contributions to pensions. And funding the 1% pay rise over that | :13:27. | :13:29. | |
period. But we wouldn't have had to make those sacrifices and deal with | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
those efficiencies if we hadn't had to inherit a record budget deficit | :13:36. | :13:43. | |
in 2010, and if we hadn't dealt with that budget deficit, we wouldn't | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
have the strong economy we have today with record levels of | :13:49. | :13:51. | |
employment and the lowest levels of unemployment in 40 years. Esther | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
McVey. Can the Minister of State confirm what this means for Tatton | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
schools in particular and Cheshire schools in general and there will be | :14:03. | :14:07. | |
no cuts in their funding? And very happy to confirm to my right | :14:08. | :14:10. | |
honourable friend, and it's very good to see her back in her place, | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
and very happy to confirm that no school will see a cut in funding as | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
a consequence of the reforms to our national funding formula. Would the | :14:21. | :14:30. | |
Minister confirm whether he's going to protect school budgets in real | :14:31. | :14:40. | |
terms. A school in my constituency is facing ?700,000 shortfall because | :14:41. | :14:46. | |
of your so-called fair funding formula. It is not fair. We need | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
increases in real terms. The new national funding formula comes in in | :14:56. | :15:02. | |
2018-19. As I said in my opening comments to this urgent question, no | :15:03. | :15:06. | |
school will see a cut in funding as a consequence of moving to the | :15:07. | :15:12. | |
National funding formula. He's alluding to the cost pressures on | :15:13. | :15:16. | |
schools that are occurring between 2016-17 and over the next four | :15:17. | :15:20. | |
years. We have already incurred about 3% of those cost pressures, | :15:21. | :15:25. | |
and there is between 1.5 and 1.6% cost pressures over the next three | :15:26. | :15:29. | |
years according to figures from the ISS. We are helping schools tackle | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
those cost pressures. There wouldn't be those cost pressures if we were | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
not having to deal with historic budget deficit we inherited in 2010. | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
Those cost pressures are being born across the public sector, but | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
because we are prudent with our public finances, that's why we have | :15:47. | :15:50. | |
record numbers of employment and opportunities for young people when | :15:51. | :15:56. | |
they leave our school system. The Minister is rapidly becoming my | :15:57. | :16:00. | |
favourite minister. At the beginning of the consultation period every | :16:01. | :16:03. | |
single school in Southend would lose out. The minister listened, that is | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
no longer the case and there is more funding overall. Can I ask the | :16:08. | :16:12. | |
Minister specifically to look at bulge funding where there is a need | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
in the medium term but not the long-term, to provide places for | :16:16. | :16:20. | |
extra pupils. I'm grateful to my right honourable friend for his kind | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
comments. I hope the same response will come from members of the other | :16:25. | :16:27. | |
side of the house and perhaps in due course you will have that response | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
from them. He is right that we have to deal with growth in pupil numbers | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
and there are provisions within the new funding formula for growth. We | :16:36. | :16:38. | |
will take his views into account when we respond to the national | :16:39. | :16:44. | |
funding formula. May I congratulate my honourable friend in calling this | :16:45. | :16:49. | |
urgent question today. I think once again we are seeing delusion from | :16:50. | :16:55. | |
ministers and members opposite. This discussion today and the warning | :16:56. | :16:57. | |
from headteachers this morning is not about the way the cake is being | :16:58. | :17:02. | |
cut, it's the size of the cake per pupil. That size of cake is being | :17:03. | :17:07. | |
reduced every year because of increased costs. When will ministers | :17:08. | :17:12. | |
actually meet the shortfall in real terms cuts to schools so we don't | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
see headteachers having to cut back on teachers and teaching support | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
staff? I'm grateful for the question. She has said something we | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
have tried to make clear for a long time. There is a distinction between | :17:29. | :17:32. | |
the national funding formula and the overall level of school funding. She | :17:33. | :17:37. | |
has been honest and made that clear distinction. The national funding | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
formula is a way of distributing our funding across the school system in | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
a fairer way based on a first stage consultation that allocates | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
significant funding on a per pupil basis for deprivation and low prior | :17:52. | :17:55. | |
attainment, all principles that were universally agreed upon when we | :17:56. | :17:58. | |
consulted in the first measure. There are cost pressures facing the | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
school system arising from things such as increased pension | :18:04. | :18:06. | |
contributions, general inflation and higher employer 's national | :18:07. | :18:09. | |
insurance contributions. We have already said no school will lose | :18:10. | :18:13. | |
funding as a consequence of introducing the National fair | :18:14. | :18:16. | |
funding formula and we will respond to that consultation in due course. | :18:17. | :18:21. | |
I would like to thank the Minister for recognising that the current | :18:22. | :18:26. | |
system is flawed and actually funding should be focused on whether | :18:27. | :18:32. | |
need is. For places like in Medway, that have been charged with | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
delivering an historic number of new homes over the next 15 years, can | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
the minister assure me that the funding will also go to places like | :18:40. | :18:43. | |
Medway where we are in need of more school places in the 15 years. I | :18:44. | :18:49. | |
know my honourable friend takes a great deal of interest in education | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
and is very experienced in the field. She is right that as pupil | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
numbers increase, so we increased the number of school places. In a | :18:57. | :19:02. | |
last parliament we created more than 500,000 new school places to deal | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
with the increasing population of primary school pupils. We intend to | :19:07. | :19:10. | |
create another 600,000 new school places over the course of this | :19:11. | :19:14. | |
Parliament, and that's in contrast to the last Labour government that | :19:15. | :19:19. | |
cut 200,000 primary school places at a time when we knew there was an | :19:20. | :19:23. | |
increase in the birth rate. Can I take the Minister back to the | :19:24. | :19:27. | |
question from my honourable friend, the Minister for Manchester Central. | :19:28. | :19:30. | |
This is the crux of this. If you introduce their funding at a time | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
when there greater cost pressures on schools, those that lose under the | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
funding formula lose doubly because of cost pressures. Can I urge the | :19:40. | :19:42. | |
Minister to lobby the Treasury to get the extra money to grow the | :19:43. | :19:46. | |
cake. He will have the support of this side of the house if he does | :19:47. | :19:50. | |
that. I hope we will have his support for the new funding formula. | :19:51. | :19:53. | |
We have said no school will lose under that new funding formula. | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
Don't forget we were clear and transparent and showed the effect of | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
the national funding formula on every single school budget based on | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
2016-17 to show people how it would affect them. It was mathematic that | :20:07. | :20:13. | |
there would be winners and losers when you applied the formula to a | :20:14. | :20:16. | |
year that currently exists. We are now saying no school will lose | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
funding under that formula, even if they did when we showed the | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
spreadsheet showing how that formula would apply. He is right, we could | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
have decided not to introduce the new funding formula at a time when | :20:30. | :20:33. | |
schools are facing these cost pressures. But we took the view that | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
there is more important to address the unfairness in the way school | :20:39. | :20:41. | |
funding was distributed at a time of fiscal constraint than it would be | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
at a time of more ample school funding. The Minister knows Bradford | :20:45. | :20:51. | |
district has some of the lowest outcomes in the education system, | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
yet the government was planning to cut funding from the Bradford | :20:55. | :20:57. | |
district in its original proposals, including in every school of the | :20:58. | :21:02. | |
Shipley constituency leaving one primary School, one week before the | :21:03. | :21:06. | |
general election, to say they were considering closing the school on | :21:07. | :21:10. | |
Friday afternoons. I'm sure the timing of that was entirely | :21:11. | :21:13. | |
coincidental! Can the Minister confirm that no school in the | :21:14. | :21:17. | |
Shipley constituency and Bradford district would lose any funding, and | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
there is no need for any school at all to close on a Friday afternoon, | :21:21. | :21:25. | |
which causes a great deal of anger and concern among parents at that | :21:26. | :21:29. | |
school. I'm happy to give my honourable friend that confirmation. | :21:30. | :21:34. | |
As we said in the manifesto, and as I have confirmed today, no school | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
will lose funding as a consequence of moving to the new fairer funding | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
system. We are helping schools tackle the cost pressures they are | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
facing. We are helping them on how to manage their budgets. We are | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
introducing national buying schemes to help schools to spend non-staff | :21:52. | :21:56. | |
spend in a more efficient way, and we expect we can save around ?1 | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
billion across the school system as a consequence of the National buying | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
schemes we are introducing. No doubt the Minister agrees with me that | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
given the financial pressures, or policy decisions should represent | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
clear-cut value for money. I therefore welcome the reported | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
U-turn on grammar schools, but given the financial case for free schools | :22:22. | :22:25. | |
is iffy at best, will be government put a stop to their expansion, | :22:26. | :22:28. | |
especially in areas with surplus places. The free schools programme | :22:29. | :22:35. | |
has been hugely successful. 29% of free schools inspected are rated | :22:36. | :22:41. | |
outstanding by Ofsted. Of the mainstream free schools approved | :22:42. | :22:45. | |
since 2014, 80 6% have been in areas where there was a need for more | :22:46. | :22:50. | |
school places. Of the remaining 14%, they are places where the parents | :22:51. | :22:53. | |
are unhappy with the quality of school places. | :22:54. | :23:00. | |
English has the best educational outcomes in the United Kingdom. Is | :23:01. | :23:10. | |
it not time we celebrated the policies which are working? My | :23:11. | :23:17. | |
honourable friend is absolutely great. The statistics published | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
today showed an increase in the reading and rating statistics. An | :23:24. | :23:35. | |
increase in the amount of children passing the four Nik check. 147,000 | :23:36. | :23:47. | |
for six-year-olds passed that test than would have done had we not | :23:48. | :23:54. | |
introduced the test. Can the Minister answer a direct question | :23:55. | :24:04. | |
was a direct answer? In my constituency, there will be a cut in | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
peer pupil funding. The school in her constituency will see a cut as a | :24:10. | :24:15. | |
consequence of a move to the new National Funding Formula. I right | :24:16. | :24:24. | |
honourable friend will recall, probably with school, my question to | :24:25. | :24:27. | |
three weeks before the general election. As Arnold Schwarzenegger | :24:28. | :24:34. | |
would say, a back. I will ask the same question. The new National | :24:35. | :24:43. | |
Funding Formula would mean that my schools would benefit by one third | :24:44. | :24:48. | |
would not. Is he noticing that that is not the case and all schools will | :24:49. | :24:56. | |
actually benefit? I am happy to see my honourable friend back in his | :24:57. | :25:01. | |
place. He is absolutely right. No schools will see a cut in funding in | :25:02. | :25:09. | |
his constituency. Will the Minister stop playing games? What schools | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
wanting or is the total amount of money they have to invest in the | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
school and their pupils. This has not protected school funding. It is | :25:19. | :25:24. | |
insulting to my constituents for me to pretend otherwise. What would | :25:25. | :25:29. | |
they say to the parents to make constituency with VC 10% cut in the | :25:30. | :25:36. | |
funding by 2021. The am not receiving a cut in funding. That is | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
the essence of this is. What we have said is we are spending record | :25:43. | :25:48. | |
amounts of money on school funding. ?41 billion this year. Rising by a | :25:49. | :25:58. | |
further ?1 billion next year. This new National Funding Formula may | :25:59. | :26:05. | |
previously have seen a cut in funding, but it will no doubt be the | :26:06. | :26:16. | |
case. -- not be the case. Children in Gloucestershire received almost | :26:17. | :26:20. | |
half of what the London authority receives. Could he tell us, so I can | :26:21. | :26:26. | |
reassure parents and governors, when we are likely to see the National | :26:27. | :26:35. | |
Funding Formula introduced? We are moving to it in 2018-19. We will be | :26:36. | :26:47. | |
responding to the consultation very shortly to them. | :26:48. | :26:58. | |
My constituency is rich in talent but one of the coolest and we can | :26:59. | :27:05. | |
stick country. Many of the schools will suffer each peer pupil funding | :27:06. | :27:15. | |
cut of ?115. What does the schools minister half to seek to disputing | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
headteachers ceasing desperately difficult decisions as to which | :27:20. | :27:26. | |
teachers, teaching assistants the sack? Holding back the life chances | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
of children who deserve the very best start in life? I have seen some | :27:31. | :27:38. | |
very good practice in the schools that they visited with the | :27:39. | :27:42. | |
honourable gentleman. As they say, under the new National Funding | :27:43. | :27:50. | |
Formula, no school will lose under the peer pupil funding basis. I give | :27:51. | :27:57. | |
my commitment on it. I realise there are cost pressures facing schools. | :27:58. | :28:08. | |
It will be about 1.5% this year in the next couple of years. We are | :28:09. | :28:14. | |
helping schools deal with the cost pressure. We are helping them deal | :28:15. | :28:21. | |
with that, both with how to manage staff budgets but also non-staff | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
spin. That is why we are introducing national buying schemes, the ability | :28:28. | :28:33. | |
for schools to publish services together to deliver greater | :28:34. | :28:38. | |
efficiency. I would like us to move on at quarter past one. We can take | :28:39. | :28:48. | |
some more questions and answers, assuming both are relatively brief. | :28:49. | :28:57. | |
With the introduction of the National Funding Formula mind games | :28:58. | :29:06. | |
be spread out over several years probably be available straightaway? | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
We do not want to make sure any school loses 11.5% a year at the | :29:12. | :29:19. | |
start. I cannot give him a reassuring to until we respond to | :29:20. | :29:24. | |
the consultation. As the Minister agree that the increased national | :29:25. | :29:31. | |
insurance and pension contributions are resulting in cuts in the | :29:32. | :29:39. | |
classroom and impacting on labelling and also affecting children's | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
behavioural issues? There are cost pressures. One of the cost pressures | :29:44. | :29:50. | |
identified as the increased employer contributions to the teacher pension | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
scheme. That is part of a range of measures that are helping to tackle | :29:57. | :30:01. | |
a historic budget deficit which we have reduced from 9.9% of national | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
income down to 2.2% of national income. We need to make sure we keep | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
the economy strong. Our determination as to do that. Can | :30:13. | :30:22. | |
colleagues encourage house-building in towns and villages where schools | :30:23. | :30:37. | |
are facing falling school rolls? I honourable friend makes a good | :30:38. | :30:48. | |
point. We are trying to ensure that we corroborate that. I think Crewe | :30:49. | :30:57. | |
is the worst funded area in Cheshire. I am worried that a | :30:58. | :31:03. | |
primary school is cutting six teaching assistants including the | :31:04. | :31:20. | |
only one who can speak Polish. We have 23 children for whom English is | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
not their first language only will know have no support. I would like | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
him to come to speak to what he just because they are very concerned. I | :31:29. | :31:37. | |
think the honourable lady would be fairly Minister visited the school, | :31:38. | :31:41. | |
rather than myself. If she was so generous as to invade me, I would be | :31:42. | :31:47. | |
collated to visit. I would be delighted to visit and the speaker | :31:48. | :31:54. | |
would be dealt very welcome to join us on a visit. It was very important | :31:55. | :32:01. | |
that we introduced this National Funding Formula. For too long, | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
certain areas have been underfunded. This is what this is designed to | :32:06. | :32:11. | |
tackle. Even under the formula, we are schools would lose in other | :32:12. | :32:15. | |
parts of the country, the no longer do so. The National Funding Formula | :32:16. | :32:23. | |
is needed in Dorset and Poole. They are amongst the 11 worst funded | :32:24. | :32:31. | |
local authorities. The policy should be uncontroversial. Can the Minister | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
as sure is that this policy is on track? We intend to press ahead with | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
the National Funding Formula and it was one of the core principles under | :32:42. | :32:49. | |
pinning how it would work. There is a large element of peer pupil | :32:50. | :32:56. | |
funding. It does a traffic widespread support, but we have made | :32:57. | :33:02. | |
an announcement that no school will lose out on funding. It has been | :33:03. | :33:08. | |
brought in to areas which have been disadvantaged. Will the Minister | :33:09. | :33:19. | |
stop this doublespeak language of an increase in the budget. We know what | :33:20. | :33:23. | |
we are talking about. In real terms, the budget is not increasing for the | :33:24. | :33:30. | |
last seven years. Teachers have had a cut of 3p per hour in the wages in | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
the last seven years. Morale was rock bottom. Will the Minister at | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
least admit that we need urgent action in increasing funding to | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
reverse the cuts which have already taken place? The language is to see | :33:44. | :33:53. | |
that as a cut in funding when there is not one. I have acknowledged that | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
there are funding pressures over the four-year period. We are helping | :33:58. | :34:01. | |
schools to manage these cost pressures. These cost pressures are | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
the because we are having to tackle an historic budget deficit which was | :34:07. | :34:13. | |
inhibited -- which is managing to the author recognisable of jobs. But | :34:14. | :34:24. | |
the funding will increase as pupil numbers continue to increase. | :34:25. | :34:31. | |
Schools have been losing out under this current funding formula for | :34:32. | :34:36. | |
years. Can the Minister confirm that as a result of the changes he is | :34:37. | :34:43. | |
proposing, this unfairness., not only in Basingstoke but throughout | :34:44. | :34:46. | |
Hampshire? I can give that assurance. This is this a sword | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
because the local authorities up and down the country that for more than | :34:52. | :34:56. | |
12 years have suffered from being underfunded. The funding formula is | :34:57. | :35:03. | |
based on out of date data and we are determined to tackle that fearless. | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
We have said no school will lose funding under the new funding | :35:08. | :35:14. | |
formula. This is the total red herring in this debate. Before it | :35:15. | :35:20. | |
has even come in, schools are having to lay off staff, increase staff | :35:21. | :35:24. | |
sizes, cut back on the curriculum and headteachers are struggling to | :35:25. | :35:31. | |
recruit and retain good stuff. When is the Minister going to tell us | :35:32. | :35:36. | |
what he's going to do about the problems already taking place? We | :35:37. | :35:44. | |
believe education is the best economic policy that is. That is why | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
we are improving standards in primary schools, in the curriculum. | :35:49. | :35:56. | |
We have revised and reformed the GCSE implemented in this country so | :35:57. | :36:01. | |
the children leave our schools with an education on a par with the best | :36:02. | :36:05. | |
in the world. We have protected school funding in real terms, but | :36:06. | :36:11. | |
they do acknowledge there are cost pressures over a four-year period. | :36:12. | :36:18. | |
We are helping schools to deal with those pressures, but these are cost | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
pressures been fixed rate across the public sector and the earlier | :36:24. | :36:27. | |
because we have two deal with the economic mess left by the last | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
Labour government. Given that he teachers all over the country wrote | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
to parents seeing the funding would be cut quite dramatically, what will | :36:39. | :36:42. | |
my honourable friend do to make sure that patients receive the good news | :36:43. | :36:48. | |
that there will be no reduction in peer pupil funding? We'll do our | :36:49. | :36:51. | |
best to convey the message no school funding under the new National | :36:52. | :37:02. | |
Funding Formula rule is out. -- will lose out. Pupils at the Kingsway | :37:03. | :37:09. | |
Academy rest yesterday received a text message referring to the | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
Northern schools trust website. When they went there, they were told the | :37:16. | :37:23. | |
school would be closing. We have said it is not financially viable. | :37:24. | :37:32. | |
It's sudden funding we see ?250,000 by call in the local council | :37:33. | :37:40. | |
funding. Is this any way to run a school system? I will look into the | :37:41. | :37:46. | |
case she is freezing. Schools have to consult before any school closes. | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
There is a set process. It is not just about money. The Labour Party | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
think they can just throw money at things and when they did that it did | :37:58. | :38:02. | |
not work. When we were in government, the amount of people | :38:03. | :38:10. | |
taking the core subjects actually fell and hurt. When we came in | :38:11. | :38:16. | |
office in 2010, only one in five took that combination of core | :38:17. | :38:24. | |
academic GCSEs. That is no two in five and we want to see that rising | :38:25. | :38:25. | |
further. Many of my primary schools and all | :38:26. | :38:38. | |
my high schools have told me they are preparing for real-time cuts | :38:39. | :38:41. | |
over the next few years. One school is being faced with closure. How | :38:42. | :38:44. | |
will this help children's mental health in schools. We take mental | :38:45. | :38:50. | |
health in our school system extremely seriously and we will | :38:51. | :38:56. | |
publish a green paper on mental health before the end of the year to | :38:57. | :38:59. | |
make sure all children are taught about mental health risks. As I have | :39:00. | :39:05. | |
said repeatedly in the responses to the surge in question, no school | :39:06. | :39:14. | |
face a funding shortage. He didn't mention standards in school wants. | :39:15. | :39:17. | |
In a county of Nottinghamshire, one of the West funded in the country, | :39:18. | :39:21. | |
standards are rising, and is 90% of my young people now go to good or | :39:22. | :39:28. | |
outstanding skills, 30% higher than 2010. Thousands of young people come | :39:29. | :39:35. | |
out of a city of Nottingham because standards are higher despite less | :39:36. | :39:38. | |
money. Will the government continue to focus relentlessly on standards | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
in education? My honourable friend is absolutely right. Academic | :39:43. | :39:49. | |
standards are key and school standards of behaviour are key in | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
underpinning a rise in academic standards. That's why we have | :39:53. | :39:59. | |
focused on improving the curricula. The government 's current plans mean | :40:00. | :40:03. | |
cuts of over ?600 per head for students in Liverpool schools. Is | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
the minister now saying there will be no cuts at all in real terms from | :40:08. | :40:16. | |
any aspect of government funding? We have said there will be no cut in | :40:17. | :40:20. | |
per-pupil funding as a result of moving to the National fair funding | :40:21. | :40:26. | |
formula. I have acknowledged the cost pressures in her area and other | :40:27. | :40:28. | |
parts of the country. We are having to deal with a budget | :40:29. | :40:54. | |
deficit. It's imperative we deal with the budget deficit if we are to | :40:55. | :41:04. | |
continue to have a strong economy. It will take as many years as it | :41:05. | :41:09. | |
takes to get down to zero. We must now move on. There is extensive | :41:10. | :41:13. | |
interest in this subject but these matters will be treated on | :41:14. | :41:16. | |
subsequent occasions. In a moment I will call Seema Malhotra to make an | :41:17. | :41:25. | |
application to propose a debate on a significant and important matter | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
that should have urgent action on standing order number 24. The | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
honourable member has three minutes to make such an application. Seema | :41:34. | :41:39. | |
Malhotra. I seek leave to propose this house debate a specific and | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely the | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
report on the inspection by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of prisons | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
of Feltham Young offenders institution. This report, published | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
on June 30, follows an unannounced inspection earlier this year. It | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
reports on both Feltham children and young people and young adults, makes | :41:59. | :42:07. | |
for shocking reading. Both raised numerous concerns, but particularly | :42:08. | :42:11. | |
relating to the matter of safety and educational purposeful activity in | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
each. The report found the prison is extremely unsafe for staff and boys | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
and young people within and has become more dangerous even since the | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
inspections in 2014 and 2015 respectively. The increased violence | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
combined with staffing shortages has meant 15-18 -year-olds are | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
unrestricted regimes which according to the Chief inspector did nothing | :42:34. | :42:41. | |
to contribute to their education, social education or safety. The last | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
inspection in 2015 is marked. The report suggests things have got | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
markedly worse in the last two years and a serious crisis point has now | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
been reached. The youth justice system is there to work to prevent | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
children and young people from under 18 from offending or reoffending. | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
What's happening now is a dereliction of duty. 15-18 | :43:03. | :43:07. | |
-year-olds are receiving an average 7.5 hours of education per week. | :43:08. | :43:11. | |
19,000 hours of schooling per year have been lost through nonattendance | :43:12. | :43:17. | |
and cancellation of classes. The regime has been described as quite | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
simply not safe for either staff or boys. Some of the young men are | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
being locked up for 22 hours every day. During the inspection they | :43:28. | :43:31. | |
found a third of prisoners were locked up during the core not | :43:32. | :43:36. | |
receiving training or education. Indeed the media is also reporting | :43:37. | :43:41. | |
today a High Court ruling that a 16-year-old boy's human rights were | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
breached by him being kept in solitary confinement at Feltham | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
Young offenders and that he was unlawfully denied access to | :43:49. | :43:50. | |
education and the ability to mix with other inmates. There is an | :43:51. | :43:56. | |
urgent need responses to these issues from the government and a | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
clear plan to address them, including whether the cuts have now | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
led to an unsafe level of resources, the statutory duty and contracts for | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
the provision of education in prison, staffing levels, staffing | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
recruitment, staff experience and staff retention. Factors | :44:13. | :44:14. | |
contributing to increased violence and whether or not now is the time | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
for an urgent rethink on Feltham's future. Young people were becoming | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
out of the youth justice institutions more traumatised and | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
with reduced life chances than when they went in. This our next | :44:27. | :44:31. | |
generation. We're supposed to be an advanced society. These are | :44:32. | :44:34. | |
children, and their future and welfare should be a matter for | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
urgent debate of this house. I am grateful to the honourable lady, who | :44:39. | :44:42. | |
asks for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important matter | :44:43. | :44:52. | |
that should have urgent, namely the report to the Feltham Young | :44:53. | :44:54. | |
offenders institution. I have listened carefully to the | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
application, but I am not persuaded it should be debated under the terms | :44:58. | :45:02. | |
of standing order number 24. The honourable lady is experienced and | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
versatile member of this house and she should know there are other | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
opportunities to secure attention to the issue. She will know what some | :45:10. | :45:13. | |
of those other opportunities are in both question and debate form. And I | :45:14. | :45:22. | |
have a feeling she will be heading towards the table office before long | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
in order to try one of those other options. We will leave it there for | :45:28. | :45:34. | |
now. Indeed, port of order, Diana Johnson. In the final speeches the | :45:35. | :45:40. | |
former Right Honourable member for league made to the house on | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
contaminated blood, he made a compelling case for the fact there | :45:45. | :45:49. | |
was evidence of criminal acts that had taken place in that contaminated | :45:50. | :45:52. | |
blood scandal. We know it is the biggest treatment disaster in the | :45:53. | :46:00. | |
history of the NHS. According to the front page of the Daily Mail today, | :46:01. | :46:05. | |
they have set out criminal acts that allegedly took place, whether it is | :46:06. | :46:10. | |
now appropriate for the Secretary of State for Health to come to the | :46:11. | :46:15. | |
house and say what he intends to take as The Right Honourable member | :46:16. | :46:26. | |
for Lee -- Leigh, and whether a public enquiry would happen, and if | :46:27. | :46:29. | |
that wouldn't take place then the police would be notified on the | :46:30. | :46:31. | |
evidence the Right Honourable member for Leigh had in his possession. I | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
wonder, Mr Speaker, if you have had any indication from the Secretary of | :46:37. | :46:40. | |
State for Health whether he intends to come to the house to make a | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
statement. I'm grateful to the honourable lady for that point of | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
order. I have seen the Secretary of State for Health a couple of times | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
today, most recently in the chamber and much earlier this morning when I | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
was returning from Mike health giving swim, and he was arriving at | :46:56. | :47:01. | |
the house on his bicycle. We exchanged the courtesies as the | :47:02. | :47:06. | |
honourable lady would expect, saying good morning. The right Honourable | :47:07. | :47:09. | |
gentleman didn't on that occasion give me any indication that he plans | :47:10. | :47:14. | |
to make a statement on this matter, nor has he since done so. I have to | :47:15. | :47:18. | |
admit I was not familiar with the headline the honourable lady refers | :47:19. | :47:21. | |
to. Not least because the organ in question is not part of my daily | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
reading matter, which I'm sure the honourable lady will readily | :47:26. | :47:31. | |
understand, it's not a paper that is ordinarily of interest to me | :47:32. | :47:34. | |
whatsoever. I have to admit the headline is an important one | :47:35. | :47:38. | |
concerning a very important story. I'm not aware of any plans by the | :47:39. | :47:42. | |
government to make a statement, as I have said, but clearly the issue | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
will not go away and I will remember the final intervention of the then | :47:46. | :47:49. | |
right honourable member for Leigh, and very powerful indeed it was. I | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
rather suspect the right honourable lady will return to it, especially | :47:55. | :48:00. | |
especially if she judges it to be urgent and she will know what | :48:01. | :48:05. | |
opportunities of available to her if she thinks it is urgent. Point of | :48:06. | :48:12. | |
order, Mr Paul Blomfield. On the 8th of February, I asked the then | :48:13. | :48:16. | |
Minister for exiting the European Union, the right Honourable member | :48:17. | :48:20. | |
for Clywd West, about allegations it was the jurisdiction of the European | :48:21. | :48:29. | |
Court of Justice to preside over notice of withdrawing from Euroton | :48:30. | :48:39. | |
as well as withdrawal from the EU. It was said it would not be possible | :48:40. | :48:46. | |
to leave the EU and continue current membership of Euroton. This has now | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
been contradicted and it has been said it was in fact the role of the | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
European Court of Justice that lay behind the government 's decision. I | :48:55. | :48:57. | |
wonder whether you can advise me how we can find out the truth behind | :48:58. | :49:02. | |
this matter as to why the government is leading us out of the important | :49:03. | :49:08. | |
treaty on Euroton. I don't think it's for me to seek to penetrate the | :49:09. | :49:16. | |
inner recesses of ministerial minds to ascertain precisely what their | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
motivation is in the pursuit of policy. I think my short answer to | :49:21. | :49:24. | |
the honourable gentleman, when he asks how should he take this matter | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
forward is, by the tabling of questions, which probably needs to | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
be very precise and focused if he is to elicit the information he seeks. | :49:37. | :49:42. | |
That would be my guidance to him. Although I have indulged the | :49:43. | :49:45. | |
honourable gentleman on this occasion, because I couldn't know | :49:46. | :49:49. | |
precisely what he would ask until he asked it, what he has asked, | :49:50. | :49:53. | |
although no doubt of enormous interest and great relevance to him | :49:54. | :49:56. | |
and many others, doesn't constitute a point of order. It's not a | :49:57. | :50:01. | |
responsibility of the chair to advise consistency of statement. Or | :50:02. | :50:06. | |
indeed from persons previously connected with government. If that | :50:07. | :50:10. | |
were one of the responsibilities of the chair, the chair would find it a | :50:11. | :50:16. | |
holy disproportionate amount of his or her time to keep up with matters. | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
He has made his concern clear and no doubt that has been heard on the | :50:22. | :50:24. | |
Treasury bench. If the Minister would he feel he had been inaccurate | :50:25. | :50:29. | |
in statements to the house, that Minister would have responsibility | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
to set the record straight. Point of order, Mr petered out. Regarding | :50:33. | :50:39. | |
estimates of 2017-18. The calling of a general election only two years | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
into a Fixed-term Parliaments Act abuse altered hung parliament and | :50:46. | :50:54. | |
the delay in chairman is of select committee, combined to create an | :50:55. | :50:57. | |
unprecedented situation with regard to scrutiny of public finances. | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
Ministers on their side are deeply concerned the government is asking | :51:02. | :51:08. | |
Parliament to vote on a motion tonight, ?568 billion without | :51:09. | :51:10. | |
debate, avoiding what many of us believed to be proper and correct | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
parliamentary scrutiny of finances. Such scrutineers of particular | :51:15. | :51:17. | |
interest for thousands of public sector workers who are currently | :51:18. | :51:21. | |
receiving mixed messages from the government on pay. Presumably these | :51:22. | :51:25. | |
estimates published today still reflect the public pay cap, and | :51:26. | :51:30. | |
where the money from the Northern Ireland settlement will come from. | :51:31. | :51:34. | |
Mr Speaker, could you as custodian of the house, and its long tradition | :51:35. | :51:38. | |
of transparent scrutiny of government spending since the bill | :51:39. | :51:43. | |
of rights in 1689, although not personally since 1689, advise us as | :51:44. | :51:50. | |
to what course might be taken to find an appropriate consideration of | :51:51. | :51:56. | |
estimate. I appreciate the gentlemen's consideration that I am | :51:57. | :51:59. | |
not that old. So far as the passing reference the gentleman made in his | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
point of order to the election of chairs of select committees is | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
concerned, the house is due to treat that matter today. It may well be I | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
have something to say on that matter today. I concern -- share the | :52:16. | :52:20. | |
concern of the honourable gentleman, and indeed of both sides of the | :52:21. | :52:24. | |
house, that chairs of select committees should be elected sooner | :52:25. | :52:27. | |
rather than later and the committee should be constituted as quickly as | :52:28. | :52:31. | |
possible so they can undertake their important tasks of scrutiny. | :52:32. | :52:37. | |
Parliament, and parliamentarians will always be served by such an | :52:38. | :52:41. | |
approach. I understand his concern the house should be asked to | :52:42. | :52:44. | |
organise the expenditure of large amounts of public money without the | :52:45. | :52:48. | |
opportunity for debate, but I assure him there is nothing underhand or | :52:49. | :52:52. | |
disorderly for this. It's in accordance with the standing orders | :52:53. | :52:55. | |
and the house's agreed estimates procedure. This is not one of those | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
days whether house is invited to debate matters recommended by | :53:00. | :53:05. | |
liaison committee. That said, it's always open to the house to | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
reconsider procedures. I'm aware that the procedure committee has | :53:09. | :53:11. | |
recently published a report on estimates procedure, a report to | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
which a government response is awaited. So there may be opportunity | :53:18. | :53:20. | |
for the house to look at these matters before too long. I hope that | :53:21. | :53:26. | |
is helpful both to the honourable gentleman and indeed to the house. | :53:27. | :53:32. | |
Presentation of Bill, Secretary shad jig Javad. | :53:33. | :53:43. | |
in the second reading, what indeed? Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Thank you. | :53:44. | :53:59. | |
European Union (Approvals) Bill, second reading. To move the bill to | :54:00. | :54:11. | |
be read a second time, I invite the Minister. We want to go for draft | :54:12. | :54:20. | |
decisions granted by the European Union, of rely on article 352. This | :54:21. | :54:30. | |
allows the European Union to take action over the ten year period on | :54:31. | :54:36. | |
issues for which there is no specific power given. This can only | :54:37. | :54:43. | |
be given by the unanimous support of all member states. Parliament must | :54:44. | :54:53. | |
first give its approval. Section eight of the European Union it says | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
minister me vote in favour of an article three tries to decision only | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
if the draft decision is approved by an act of Parliament. I am pleased | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
that members of both houses will have the chance to scrutinise and | :55:09. | :55:16. | |
whether to approve such measures. The United Kingdom is going to leave | :55:17. | :55:23. | |
the European Union and until that is deseeded, really mean a member of | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
the European Union and all the rates and rules of that remain in place. | :55:29. | :55:35. | |
That means exercising the United Kingdom rates at the European Union. | :55:36. | :55:41. | |
It does not matter whether the involve the United Kingdom directly, | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
they could make a difference to the context of negotiations. While we | :55:46. | :55:52. | |
are leaving, we will continue to retain a friendship and alliance | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
with all the European countries. We have been working in partnership | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
with European Union members states for decades to build a prosperous | :56:01. | :56:09. | |
and stable Europe. I will give way. Order! The honourable member was | :56:10. | :56:21. | |
totally convinced it was him. The other member was equally convinced | :56:22. | :56:26. | |
it was him. Please put us out of our misery. I was referring to the | :56:27. | :56:39. | |
honourable member for Bridgwater. I know from government and colleagues | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
across the house, my honourable friend would say that the Council of | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
Europe was still an important body. It continues to play an important | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
part for human rates and low continue to play that important | :56:57. | :57:05. | |
role. I thank my honourable friend form that intervention. I commend | :57:06. | :57:09. | |
him for all his work within the Council of Europe and seek that will | :57:10. | :57:17. | |
continue long after we have successfully concluded our | :57:18. | :57:18. | |
negotiations to leave the European Union. We set out a key important | :57:19. | :57:28. | |
strategy for establishing a new partnership with the European Union. | :57:29. | :57:34. | |
I will make a little progress and then give way. That vision for a | :57:35. | :57:39. | |
partnership is in the best interests in the United Kingdom will mean we | :57:40. | :57:45. | |
also continue to work with the European Union with tackling areas | :57:46. | :57:51. | |
of common interest. I am much encouraged by the Minister but just | :57:52. | :58:00. | |
simply to see we are not brothers and sisters in Europe, but we will | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
be cousins and we will seek to maintain good relations with the | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
European Union despite the fact that we are going to leave. I heartily | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
agree with my honourable friend that we will continue to foster good | :58:15. | :58:21. | |
relations with our European Union friends long after we leave the | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
European Union. Keeping that in mind, we are content at all four | :58:25. | :58:32. | |
decisions that this bill addresses are reasonable, proportionate, in | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
keeping with our best interests and will not result in any additional | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
financial burden on the United Kingdom. As I say, Article 352 | :58:41. | :58:48. | |
decisions must be agreed by all the European Union member states. When | :58:49. | :58:51. | |
all member states are in a position to vote on a decision, the European | :58:52. | :58:57. | |
Council will schedule a meeting of Council of the European union can. | :58:58. | :59:03. | |
If member states vote to approve, the European Parliament will be | :59:04. | :59:11. | |
asked to approve the draft decision. If so, decisions they've adopted in | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
two European Union law. All member states apart from the United Kingdom | :59:16. | :59:28. | |
that all states apart from the United Kingdom and Germany have | :59:29. | :59:39. | |
accepted the second article. It has been suggested that as we negotiate | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
our exit from the European Union that the United Kingdom should | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
abstain from decisions in the European Council. Can the minister | :59:52. | :59:58. | |
explain the impact on others abstaining on these decisions? I | :59:59. | :00:03. | |
thank my honourable friend. I can assure him that we're we not to pass | :00:04. | :00:11. | |
this bill this afternoon, then the decisions, the draft decisions, | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
would not be able to proceed. We are still members of the European Union | :00:17. | :00:22. | |
and therefore part of our consent is required for these draft decisions | :00:23. | :00:29. | |
to take effect. I am very grateful. She has been very generous. She | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
indicated one other country of which is yet to ratify this, namely | :00:34. | :00:41. | |
Germany. As she any indication as to when that support may come from | :00:42. | :00:49. | |
Germany? I thank my honourable friend for the intervention. Any | :00:50. | :00:56. | |
such comment would be speculation, which I intend to avoid. I could | :00:57. | :01:02. | |
point out that Germany, like the United Kingdom, do have to have the | :01:03. | :01:09. | |
consent of the national parliament before the ministers can vote on | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
such draft decisions as these. All other member states, apart from | :01:15. | :01:23. | |
Germany and ourselves, have agreed the fundamental rights agency | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
decisions and we do not believe that any of these draft decisions are | :01:27. | :01:30. | |
contentious. The government is committed to being constructive in | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
the native kingdom 's engagement with the unique European Union. | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
Holding up business which is simple and uncontroversial would undermine | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
that approach. It is therefore clearly in the interests of the | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
United Kingdom to approve these draft decisions. The annoying them | :01:52. | :01:56. | |
could have a negative impact on the European Union negotiations for | :01:57. | :02:04. | |
Britain's Brexit. There will of course be further opportunities to | :02:05. | :02:07. | |
examine more fundamental aspects of the work of the European Union in | :02:08. | :02:12. | |
other debates, but I'm sure other members will recognise that whatever | :02:13. | :02:18. | |
the views on our exit from the unique European Union, it is in our | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
interest to approve these draft decisions through. Will the Minister | :02:22. | :02:29. | |
confirm that as part of our ongoing relationship with the European | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
Union, that the provisions of the trade agreement which have been | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
secured with Canada will also be fully implemented in the United | :02:40. | :02:42. | |
Kingdom and that we will continue to play a pivotal role with the | :02:43. | :02:49. | |
European Union and encouraging free trade with Canada? I welcome the | :02:50. | :03:00. | |
intervention. I remember his excellent work when he was he trade | :03:01. | :03:04. | |
representative to Canada. I can assure him that the seat of | :03:05. | :03:10. | |
negotiations concluded between the European Union and Canada will apply | :03:11. | :03:18. | |
to the United Kingdom as long as we are members of the European Union. | :03:19. | :03:22. | |
After that point, it will be up to us to decide the terms of any future | :03:23. | :03:29. | |
trading relationship with Canada,. I will not go any further on that. I | :03:30. | :03:37. | |
want to make progress. I will conclude my remarks on Canada and | :03:38. | :03:45. | |
treat. It is clearly in the interests of the United Kingdom to | :03:46. | :03:49. | |
approve these draft decisions as dealing decisions could have a | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
negative impact as they were seen on our exit negotiations, including | :03:55. | :04:00. | |
discussions on any future framework. There will be further opportunities | :04:01. | :04:05. | |
to examine more fundamental aspects. I will give way. Surely the Minister | :04:06. | :04:12. | |
would confirm that the Canadian trade agreement along with all the | :04:13. | :04:22. | |
others will know apply to us if both the United Kingdom and Canada wish | :04:23. | :04:28. | |
to do so. I accept the first part of what my honourable friend says, but | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
they do not wish to predict the future in terms of what the United | :04:33. | :04:37. | |
Kingdom and Canada will find of importance to discuss in the trade | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
relationship in the years to come. The first two decisions. The first | :04:42. | :04:50. | |
two decisions will enable two countries, Albania and Serbia to be | :04:51. | :04:55. | |
granted observer status in the European Union is fundamental rights | :04:56. | :05:00. | |
agency. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I was not | :05:01. | :05:08. | |
going to raise this, but as her colleagues have done so, point | :05:09. | :05:17. | |
estimate as the United Kingdom given to renegotiating that table steel | :05:18. | :05:22. | |
with Canada? I would remind him of the scope of this bill that we are | :05:23. | :05:29. | |
debating. It really does not include a lot of detailed discussion about | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
our future trade relationship with Canada. The Canadian decision is | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
about competition law and not about trade. The fundamental rights agency | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
was set up to support the European Union institutions and its member | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
states by improving knowledge and awareness of fundamental rights | :05:52. | :05:53. | |
within the European Union with a view to ensuring respect of | :05:54. | :05:59. | |
fundamental rights. They do that through the collection and analysis | :06:00. | :06:04. | |
of information. They can also formulate on for individual topics, | :06:05. | :06:13. | |
either at the request or at the request of European Union | :06:14. | :06:16. | |
institutions. It is about raising the awareness of fundamental rights. | :06:17. | :06:23. | |
European Union accession candidate countries can be given observer | :06:24. | :06:29. | |
status. This allows the agency to collect and analyse fundamental rate | :06:30. | :06:32. | |
data from these countries but does not allow them the right to vote in | :06:33. | :06:38. | |
decisions as part of the management board of the agency. I will give | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
way. How does she see this differing from what the Council of Europe | :06:45. | :06:50. | |
does? The Council of Europe looks after democracy within Europe and | :06:51. | :06:59. | |
Kelly's own the same state takeover activities as the agency does? The | :07:00. | :07:04. | |
goal of the agency is to provide expertise on fundamental rights to | :07:05. | :07:09. | |
the European Union institutions, member states country seeking | :07:10. | :07:15. | |
ascension. The specific tasks of the agency are to analyse and sheer | :07:16. | :07:20. | |
information on fundamental rights within the European Union, to carry | :07:21. | :07:23. | |
out scientific research and surveys on that, to formulate opinions on | :07:24. | :07:31. | |
specific topics, either on its own initiative or those requested by | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
other European Union institutions or to raise awareness of fundamental | :07:36. | :07:42. | |
rights issues within the European Union. Albania was granted candidate | :07:43. | :07:49. | |
status in 2014. The United Kingdom supported that on the condition that | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
Albania redoubled its reform efforts, with particular focus on | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
justice and home affairs, especially tackling organised crime, corruption | :08:02. | :08:02. | |
and illegal migration. UK welcomed Albania's progress in | :08:03. | :08:19. | |
July 20 16. Albanian must now fully implement the reform package as soon | :08:20. | :08:21. | |
as possible so this can underpin other reforms. Serbia was granted EU | :08:22. | :08:28. | |
candidate status in 2012 and accession negotiations were launched | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
in January 30 14th with the first four negotiating chapters opened | :08:34. | :08:41. | |
during 2016. The UK continues to support Serbia on its reform path, | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
including on funding projects in Serbia. I will give way. Witchy | :08:45. | :08:54. | |
comment on whether Serbia's membership of the agency would have | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
any impact on the pursuit of war crimes in Serbia as part of its | :08:59. | :09:03. | |
effort to increase human rights? -- would she comment. I can't comment | :09:04. | :09:13. | |
specifically on the likely impact on the treatment of war crimes in | :09:14. | :09:18. | |
Serbia, a subject about which the Foreign Office is extremely | :09:19. | :09:22. | |
concerned, as I presume is my honourable friend. But I think it | :09:23. | :09:28. | |
can only be a mark of progress for Serbia to be admitted in the way | :09:29. | :09:32. | |
that this decision enables them so to be. I will give way to the | :09:33. | :09:42. | |
honourable gentleman. I can't accept what she says that this is a mark of | :09:43. | :09:45. | |
progress. This sounds like motherhood and apple pie Euro speak, | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
exactly the same words were used during the accession of Croatia, and | :09:53. | :09:56. | |
have Croatia handed over their war criminals? Have they got the rule of | :09:57. | :10:04. | |
law in Croatia yet? All of which was promised. They have one of the | :10:05. | :10:08. | |
longest borders in the EU used for sex trafficking and people | :10:09. | :10:13. | |
trafficking. Why does she believe there will be improvements with | :10:14. | :10:18. | |
Albania and Serbia? To correct the honourable gentleman, I don't think | :10:19. | :10:21. | |
I said I thought there would be improvements, I said I thought it | :10:22. | :10:26. | |
would be a mark of progress. I was trying to limit my enthusiasm to | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
that degree, mindful of what he has said about Croatia. However, I would | :10:34. | :10:38. | |
say that it's early days, and I think we can only go down the path | :10:39. | :10:45. | |
of progress, and the UK continues to support Serbia on its reform path, | :10:46. | :10:49. | |
including through funding projects in Serbia. Serbia has more work to | :10:50. | :10:55. | |
do on anti-discrimination policies, to improve the situation of | :10:56. | :11:00. | |
vulnerable people, and to ensure freedom of expression. Observer | :11:01. | :11:03. | |
status at the fundamental rights agency should help Albania and | :11:04. | :11:10. | |
Serbia to reform in the areas we are discussing. Albania and Serbia | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
should also be allowed to benefit from instances of good practice and | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
evidence from other EU member states in relation to human rights. The | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
government is therefore satisfied of the need to support these two | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
decisions. The third and fourth decisions are necessary to implement | :11:27. | :11:31. | |
a cooperative agreement between the EU and Canada on competition | :11:32. | :11:35. | |
enforcement. The decisions will allow the agreements to be signed | :11:36. | :11:38. | |
and allow conclusion of the agreement after it has been approved | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
by the European Parliament. This competition agreement will replace | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
an existing agreement that has been in place since 1999. It replicates | :11:49. | :11:55. | |
and builds upon the provisions in the earlier agreement by allowing | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
the European Commission and the Canadian competition bureau to | :11:59. | :12:05. | |
exchange evidence obtained during evidence investigations including | :12:06. | :12:09. | |
confidential information and personal data. The existing | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
cooperation agreement with Canada dates from June 19 99. At that time | :12:15. | :12:18. | |
the exchange of evidence between the parties was not regarded as needed. | :12:19. | :12:26. | |
In the meantime the bilateral cooperation between the European | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
Commission and the Canadian competition bureau has become more | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
frequent and deeper as concerns substance. I will give way to the | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
honourable gentleman. The government has already said to the Brexit | :12:39. | :12:44. | |
select committee, which I served on in the last Parliament, that upon | :12:45. | :12:47. | |
withdrawal from the EU we will no longer benefit from the issues she | :12:48. | :12:51. | |
is talking about, particularly information exchange agreements | :12:52. | :12:55. | |
between our competition regulator and the Canadian competition bureau. | :12:56. | :13:00. | |
This ends much of the legislation we are discussing today is rather | :13:01. | :13:06. | |
pointless. Can check Spain at pulling out of global deals, such as | :13:07. | :13:13. | |
we are discussing today, renders it? I have explained the importance of | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
the decision is primarily to support our role as a continuing member of | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
the EU until the negotiations are complete in two years' time. For | :13:24. | :13:30. | |
that long, we will be covered by it. After that date, we will have to see | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
what we agreed during the negotiations. But the existing | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
competition agreement with Canada does not allow confidential | :13:42. | :13:43. | |
information sharing, and The New one does. Returning to that point in a | :13:44. | :13:57. | |
few minutes, it's become more frequent and deeper as concerns | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
substance. The absence of the possibility to exchange information | :14:03. | :14:05. | |
with the Canadian competition authority is regarded as a major | :14:06. | :14:10. | |
impediment to effective cooperation. The proposed changes to the existing | :14:11. | :14:13. | |
agreement will allow the European Commission and the Canadian | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
competition bureau to exchange evidence which both sides have | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
obtained in their investigations. This will in particular be useful in | :14:24. | :14:28. | |
all cases where the alleged anti-competitive behaviour affects | :14:29. | :14:33. | |
transatlantic or world markets. Many worldwide or transatlantic cartels, | :14:34. | :14:38. | |
including Canada and through Canada, the commission will get a good | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
opportunity to provide access to a additional information regarding | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
these cartels. Cooperation with third party competition authorities | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
is now standard practice in international competition | :14:54. | :14:55. | |
investigations. In addition to the agreement with Canada, the EU has | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
concluded dedicated cooperation agreements with the USA, Japan, | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
Korea and Switzerland. If I may return to the intervention by the | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
honourable gentleman, I omitted to say that even after Brexit | :15:11. | :15:17. | |
negotiations have been complete, the competition agreement with Canada | :15:18. | :15:19. | |
will continue to apply to British companies if they are trading with | :15:20. | :15:22. | |
the single market of the European Union. The most advanced agreement | :15:23. | :15:30. | |
is the one with Switzerland, which contains already provisions on the | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
exchange of evidence and the proposed update would bring the | :15:36. | :15:37. | |
agreement with Canada to the same level as the one concluded with | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
Switzerland. I am sure that honourable members will agree that | :15:42. | :15:47. | |
the ability to share information for effective and efficient | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
international competition enforcement is increasingly | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
important. Access to information from other jurisdictions can be | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
important in reaching a robust enforcement decision. Cooperation | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
and information sharing between jurisdictions can help ensure | :16:05. | :16:10. | |
enforcement bodies do not reach different decisions based on | :16:11. | :16:14. | |
different sets of information. The agreement contains general | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
safeguards for the transfer of information and additional | :16:19. | :16:20. | |
safeguards for the transfer of personal data. Personal data can | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
only be shared with the express written consent of the person or | :16:27. | :16:32. | |
company to which it relates. In the absence of consent, personal data | :16:33. | :16:38. | |
can only be shared where both competition authorities are | :16:39. | :16:40. | |
investigating the same related conduct or transaction. Furthermore, | :16:41. | :16:46. | |
the transfer of personal data will be subject to independent oversight. | :16:47. | :16:52. | |
The agreement also contained safeguards for information provided | :16:53. | :16:57. | |
by company under the EU cartel amenity, or leniency programme. This | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
information cannot be shared without the express written consent of the | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
individual or company that provided that information. As I have noted, | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
there are no financial implications for the UK of the decisions. I | :17:10. | :17:16. | |
confirm that I do not consider that any of the bill's provisions | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
interfere with the rights set out in the European Convention on human | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
rights, so no issues arise about the Bill's compatibility with those | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
rights. It is intended the bill will come into force on the day of Royal | :17:31. | :17:37. | |
assent. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I wonder why | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
there is no cost, surely if we are to have an added layer of complexity | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
sharing layer, which might be a good thing to do, there must be a cost to | :17:45. | :17:52. | |
the officials' time in doing that. I am assured there are no costs | :17:53. | :17:57. | |
associated with these decisions. Other than the normal course of | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
government business. It is intended that the bill will come into force | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
on the Dale of Royal assent, and for reasons I have outlined, I commend | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
the bill to the house. The question is the Bill read for a second time. | :18:14. | :18:25. | |
This bill was indeed in the Queen's Speech, in the background notes it | :18:26. | :18:30. | |
talks about it helping Brandt Serbia and Albania observer status at the | :18:31. | :18:37. | |
EU's rights agency, and there will be agreement for enhanced | :18:38. | :18:43. | |
cooperation between competition regulators in the EU and Canada. I | :18:44. | :18:46. | |
can't be the only one somewhat surprised as this Bill being the | :18:47. | :18:50. | |
second bill to be given a second reading in the new parliament. And | :18:51. | :18:56. | |
it was given such a priority, given what might have happened, and what | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
was at one point in the Conservative Party manifesto. Indeed, we could | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
have suggested some alternatives. Addressing the pay cap, as members | :19:07. | :19:09. | |
of the Cabinet are now doing, as members of the Conservative Party | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
are now doing. There seems to be an argument there. Something we could | :19:15. | :19:17. | |
have been debating in the house at this time. Are you aware the Civil | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
War in Yugoslavia was an horrific and scarring experience for our | :19:23. | :19:26. | |
whole continent. We shouldn't belittle it by underestimating the | :19:27. | :19:29. | |
importance of those nations getting up to our level in terms of human | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
rights and so on. He's absolutely right, which is why it was in the | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
Queen's Speech. I was just questioning why it was given such | :19:38. | :19:41. | |
high prominence and put forward as the second piece of legislation, | :19:42. | :19:47. | |
given that it is only two lines. Why wasn't something more weighty put | :19:48. | :19:52. | |
forward first? I mentioned the pay cap and the turmoil in the | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
Conservative Party, the agonising going on about whether public | :19:58. | :20:00. | |
servants should be given a pay rise or not. The debate over tuition | :20:01. | :20:05. | |
fees. Whether there should be more police and firefighters. I will give | :20:06. | :20:13. | |
way again. I fear he may be being a little bit churlish. He has the | :20:14. | :20:17. | |
opportunity now to set out what the Labour Party's position is in | :20:18. | :20:21. | |
relation to this Bill. Of course he is entitled, so long as the speaker | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
allows him to do so, about what should have been debated at this | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
time. He has the opportunity to debate this subject now, so what | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
does he have to say about it? I'm grateful for the honourable | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
gentleman's enquiry just now. I could not know what the honourable | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
gentleman could say until he has said it, but now that he has said it | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
is, I could tell him he shouldn't have said it. It would be advisable | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
now for the honourable gentleman to return to the subject matter of the | :20:51. | :20:58. | |
European Union approvals Bill, and may I gently remind the honourable | :20:59. | :21:02. | |
gentleman, quite a seasoned parliament Eric, consists of two | :21:03. | :21:05. | |
clauses, and I say this not least for the benefit of those attending | :21:06. | :21:10. | |
to proceedings elsewhere, the second is extent, commencement and short | :21:11. | :21:15. | |
title. The only substantive clause is cause number one. The question of | :21:16. | :21:19. | |
the pay cap is a matter of enormous interest, but it's wholly irrelevant | :21:20. | :21:29. | |
as to the question of the Republic of Albania and Republic of Serbia, | :21:30. | :21:36. | |
the European agency Court of fundamental rights, and Canada with | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
respect of competition law. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. You may | :21:42. | :21:49. | |
even have stolen parts of my speech with what you just read out. We do | :21:50. | :21:56. | |
have the European Union approvals Bill. The second course of which is | :21:57. | :22:02. | |
the name of the bill. Labour will not be opposing the EU approvals | :22:03. | :22:10. | |
Bill at this stage. Members will be pleased to learn that. We are | :22:11. | :22:16. | |
committed on this site to ensuring the United Kingdom fulfils its | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
responsibilities as a member of state of the EU, not least in the | :22:21. | :22:25. | |
very important matter of the progress being made by the former | :22:26. | :22:32. | |
member states of Yugoslavia. We will do so until the time of withdrawal | :22:33. | :22:37. | |
from the European Union, and we will continue to scrutinise European | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
Union matters that come before Parliament. | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
It addresses draft decisions to the Council of the European Union. The | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
first relates to the participation of the republics of Albania and | :22:53. | :22:58. | |
Serbia, as it serves in the EU for fundamental rights, and the signing | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
of a conclusion of the agreement between the EU and government of | :23:02. | :23:05. | |
Canada regarding the application of competition laws and includes the | :23:06. | :23:10. | |
exchange of information between the EU and Canadian competition bureau. | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
Returning first to the involvement of Serbia and Albania in the | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
fundamental rights agency. The fundamental rights agency replaced | :23:20. | :23:23. | |
the European monitoring Centre of racism and xenophobia in 2007. As | :23:24. | :23:29. | |
set out on the year report website, it advises EU institutions and | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
national governments, especially in the areas of discrimination, access | :23:36. | :23:42. | |
to justice, racism and xenophobia -- Europa. Data protection Acts and | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
children's rights. Areas of work are determined through a five-year | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
framework and main priority areas including the fighting of racism and | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
xenophobia, and related intolerance. EU candidate countries can | :23:56. | :24:01. | |
participate in the fundamental rights agency as observers. The bill | :24:02. | :24:06. | |
proofs two draft decisions on the participation of the Republic of | :24:07. | :24:12. | |
Albania and Serbia in observers of the fundamental rights agency. The | :24:13. | :24:17. | |
decision will not confirm observers status through Albania and Serbia | :24:18. | :24:23. | |
but association councils, Albania and Serbia can determine in this | :24:24. | :24:33. | |
becoming observers. Under the draft Council decisions, Albania and | :24:34. | :24:37. | |
Serbia would both appoint an observer and ultimate observer in | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
the work of the agency 's management board, on an equal footing with the | :24:41. | :24:44. | |
member and alternate members appointed by EU member states, but | :24:45. | :24:49. | |
without the right to vote. They would also participate in | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
initiatives undertaken by the agency and make a financial contribution to | :24:54. | :25:03. | |
yet. In an explanatory memoranda in March 2016, the honourable member | :25:04. | :25:08. | |
for each and Walton, who was then, and is now, a minister in the | :25:09. | :25:12. | |
Justice Department, said the government supports Albania and | :25:13. | :25:17. | |
Serbia becoming a member, agreeing that it would UK subject firm but | :25:18. | :25:26. | |
fair conditionality. Albania and Serbia will make a contribution to | :25:27. | :25:31. | |
the EU budget, in order to participate, ranging between 160,000 | :25:32. | :25:37. | |
to 183,000 euros per year. The draft decisions have been cleared out the | :25:38. | :25:41. | |
European Scrutiny Committee and the Lords Europe select committee. As | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
the minister said in her remarks, this is an opportunity for us to | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
support the progress being made in human rights, in the two countries | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
in question. I completely agree with what she said on that point. I give | :25:56. | :26:04. | |
way. I see the member for served on those, that both the Labour Party | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
works with the Council of Europe with Albania and with the Balkans to | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
make sure that they are monitored and understood. It's an enormous | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
amount of work by this place, with parliament roads across Europe, to | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
continue the work you talk about. I commend the member, he will actually | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
give praise. There are in peace here doing the work already. He's | :26:27. | :26:30. | |
absolutely right to make that point, I thank him and join him in praising | :26:31. | :26:37. | |
colleagues across the house, for their work on these very important | :26:38. | :26:43. | |
matters. But, I have a particular question for the Minister, which did | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
come up in some interventions, which is what would be the nature of our | :26:47. | :26:53. | |
involvement in the agency? A similar question would apply to a number of | :26:54. | :26:59. | |
agencies. Both immediately after Brexit, how does she envisage the | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
transitional arrangements being handled? And, what she sees as the | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
longer-term arrangements for our involvement in this and similar | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
agencies. That is something she could come back to in her wind-up? | :27:15. | :27:21. | |
Turning to the agreement between the EU and Canada on competition, there | :27:22. | :27:25. | |
is already an agreement between the EU and Canada in competition | :27:26. | :27:30. | |
matters. It extends powers to both sides, so they can exchange evidence | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
that they've collected in the course of their investigations. The | :27:34. | :27:39. | |
honourable gentleman give way? I'm grateful for the honourable | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
gentleman for giving way. I just want him to repeat his question in a | :27:44. | :27:48. | |
little more detail, my understanding of the fundamental rights agency is | :27:49. | :27:53. | |
there to help interpret and work on community law and member states. If | :27:54. | :27:58. | |
we left the EU it would no longer be relevant in that context to the UK | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
and itself? Yes, I had moved on to the second part but I will come back | :28:06. | :28:10. | |
to what he said. I think we need to know what our relationship would be, | :28:11. | :28:16. | |
as his honourable friend just said, were carried out by members of the | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
house, over many years, has been extremely important in making | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
progress in both countries named in this piece of legislation. And | :28:28. | :28:35. | |
elsewhere. It's important we have a sense from government of how we | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
would stay involved in the work of agencies, including this one, | :28:42. | :28:47. | |
because I think this country, all members would agree, this country | :28:48. | :28:51. | |
has a very important role to play, in the EU or not. Does the | :28:52. | :28:56. | |
honourable gentleman agree with me that when it comes to human rights | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
in this country, and indeed across Europe, a key part of human rights | :29:02. | :29:06. | |
is the European Convention of human rights, unaffected by this. That | :29:07. | :29:09. | |
must remain the key and most important element. I completely | :29:10. | :29:18. | |
agree. I will move onto the EU and Canada relationships. The EU | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
Commission cites that the absence of a power to exchange information with | :29:24. | :29:26. | |
the Canadian competition authority is now in danger becoming an | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
impediment, as cooperation between the two parties has increased. The | :29:32. | :29:36. | |
Minister made that point. Cooperation with other competition | :29:37. | :29:41. | |
authorities is standard practice in international competition | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
investigations. The EU has cooperation agreements with the | :29:48. | :29:51. | |
United States, Japan and Korea, the most advanced being with | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
Switzerland, similar to the Canada agreement, and has proved, as the | :29:56. | :30:00. | |
minister said, uncontroversial. Many worldwide or transatlantic cartels | :30:01. | :30:10. | |
include Canada in their operations, and the Canadian commission will | :30:11. | :30:18. | |
have a good opportunity via this agreement to gain additional | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
information concerning those cartels, and whether practice is | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
anti-competitive or not. I thank the honourable member for giving way, | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
does the member except that this serves as an interesting template | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
for how we take forward competitive activities after Brexit? It may | :30:37. | :30:43. | |
serve for other members of the British Commonwealth, to look at how | :30:44. | :30:50. | |
we pattern that relationship? I think that is a good point. I will | :30:51. | :30:56. | |
come later to further questions on the arrangements after we leave the | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
EU, so we can continue to benefit from these kinds of arrangements | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
that are set out in this section of the bill. We need to ensure that | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
arrangements are in place to address anti-competitive practice Raw in | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
this country, and where it affects interests across the world. -- | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
practices in this country. That's a point, that the Minister can come | :31:28. | :31:34. | |
back to in her wind-up. I appreciate your indulgence. The issue of | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
setting a pattern is how it should be done, do you agree it impacts | :31:40. | :31:43. | |
greatly on our nearest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland? If we get | :31:44. | :31:47. | |
the relationship right between ourselves and Canada, getting it | :31:48. | :31:50. | |
right with the Republic of Ireland will help to bolster our trade? I | :31:51. | :31:59. | |
think we are potentially in danger of wandering away from the subject! | :32:00. | :32:07. | |
I have no idea why members opposite find that funny, but there we are. | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
Obviously, the DUP are particularly exercised on that, among other | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
points. I dare say that is something for the Minister to pick up and for | :32:17. | :32:21. | |
another day... He will be particularly concerned by it. | :32:22. | :32:26. | |
Competition delivers benefits to consumers, to businesses, and to | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
society as a whole. Therefore, competition policy contributes to | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
contributing in jobs, investment and growth. By enforcing competition | :32:36. | :32:41. | |
rules, sanctioning, breeches and promoting a competition culture | :32:42. | :32:43. | |
internationally, the proposed agreement will improve | :32:44. | :32:50. | |
administrative competition and the Canadian competition bureau. | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
Ultimately, consumers in the EU and in Canada benefit from competition | :32:55. | :32:59. | |
policy and sanctions which contribute to stronger deterrents of | :33:00. | :33:04. | |
anti-competitive behaviour. More effective competition enforcement | :33:05. | :33:07. | |
results in more open and competitive markets, where companies compete | :33:08. | :33:10. | |
more freely enabling them to generate wealth and jobs. It is a | :33:11. | :33:18. | |
better choice of products at low prices. This agreement has been | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
similar to that in place since June 1999, with additional improvements | :33:25. | :33:30. | |
on the exchange of information. Even after we have left the EU, UK | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
companies operating in the EU will be subject to the jurisdiction of | :33:36. | :33:46. | |
the European Court in anti-trust investigations, as all non-EU | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
countries are. Information on United Kingdom companies will still be | :33:52. | :33:58. | |
transferable after Brexit, however, after Brexit, the European | :33:59. | :34:01. | |
Commission will still share information about the UK companies | :34:02. | :34:06. | |
with Canada, that will not be bounced to share the information | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
received from Canada about the UK with the UK. -- will not be bound. | :34:11. | :34:18. | |
This agreement relates to administrative cooperation between | :34:19. | :34:23. | |
the EU Commission and Canadian competition bureau, so public | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
consultation and an impact assessment was not considered | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
necessary by the government, and as the Minister has said on a number of | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
occasions, she does not think there are financial implications. The | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
government noted in its explanatory memorandum that this agreement will | :34:38. | :34:44. | |
have no impact on UK law, or financial implications. The European | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
Scrutiny Committee did not at first clear the proposals, and the chair | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
of the committee, who I dare say is going to make a contribution to this | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
debate, requested further information about whether in and in | :34:56. | :35:02. | |
what way the UK could participate in an agreement following withdrawal. | :35:03. | :35:06. | |
The minister responded to the committee on the 24th of October, | :35:07. | :35:10. | |
stating that the government will ensure that the UK is the | :35:11. | :35:15. | |
strongest... In the strongest possible position to cooperate on | :35:16. | :35:21. | |
competition matters with international partners. There are a | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
number of options for securing the means of international cooperation | :35:26. | :35:28. | |
as any cooperation agreement depends on negotiation with the EU, and | :35:29. | :35:32. | |
negotiations with any other countries like Canada. It is too | :35:33. | :35:38. | |
early to say what exact form the international cooperation will take. | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
I think that does raise a number of questions about transition | :35:45. | :35:48. | |
arrangements in the longer term. In response to that letter, the | :35:49. | :35:53. | |
documents and those subsequently cleared by the committee, that | :35:54. | :35:56. | |
brings us to the arrangements and what they will be after we leave the | :35:57. | :36:04. | |
EU. She mentioned in her letter about seeking to extend current | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
arrangements, so I would ask her if she could indicate how long she | :36:09. | :36:16. | |
thinks that would be necessary? And what guarantee she feels that will | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
give us? If it is possible to extend existing arrangements. United | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
Kingdom companies operating in the EU will be covered by this | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
agreement, the difference will be that the European Commission will | :36:30. | :36:34. | |
continue to share information with Canada about UK companies but that | :36:35. | :36:37. | |
will not be shared with the UK unless a further agreement is | :36:38. | :36:42. | |
reached. She said in her letter that any cooperation agreement will | :36:43. | :36:45. | |
depend on negotiations. How long does she think those negotiations | :36:46. | :36:54. | |
are likely to take? What will she be seeking to achieve as a result of | :36:55. | :36:57. | |
those negotiations? I think that we are at the point where we need | :36:58. | :37:01. | |
government ministers to begin to answer some questions about | :37:02. | :37:04. | |
transition arrangements and longer term on this matter and many others. | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
There's no doubt that competition is vital to the economy, and the | :37:09. | :37:14. | |
success of our businesses and prosperity of the people of our | :37:15. | :37:17. | |
country. Encouraging healthy competition is vital, the role of | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
national government and international cooperation is to | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
create a fair market, not only a free one. To avoid anti-competitive | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
practices, whether preventing the creation of cartels through mergers | :37:31. | :37:35. | |
and acquisitions, or preventing undercutting exploitation of workers | :37:36. | :37:39. | |
in smaller businesses, the use zero hours contracts were workers have | :37:40. | :37:44. | |
little choice, the banks who only found those with liquid assets, the | :37:45. | :37:48. | |
delays payment of invoices by larger firms, they are all examples of | :37:49. | :37:56. | |
anti-competitive practices and exploitative practices, they are all | :37:57. | :38:00. | |
examples where government nationally and internationally should be | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
looking at ways of intervening. Playing its part in setting a level | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
playing field. And being a partner to business and the workforce as | :38:10. | :38:12. | |
well. Government should be encouraging | :38:13. | :38:21. | |
those wishing to start to grow a business. It should be investing, | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
have the right strategy for infrastructure and skills. And an | :38:27. | :38:29. | |
industrial strategy. But underpinning that is the approach to | :38:30. | :38:35. | |
competition, and I think that's what this bill is all about. We need the | :38:36. | :38:40. | |
questions answered about what happens after we leave the EU and | :38:41. | :38:48. | |
those arrangements. The nature of the points made by the Minister in | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
her letter to the European scrutiny committee are very important. They | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
show just how complex some of these questions are. I think it's time we | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
started to get some answers to those questions. I'm following his speech | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
very closely. He has now mentioned the European scrutiny for the second | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
time, I think. Would he join me in calling for that committee to be | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
reconstituted as quickly as possible, because doesn't it | :39:23. | :39:25. | |
demonstrate the important work that committee does, and it should get | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
going straightaway? I don't know if he was in the chamber before the | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
debate started, but my honourable friend the number for Bootle made an | :39:35. | :39:41. | |
impassioned plea to Mr Speaker for just this to happen, and for select | :39:42. | :39:48. | |
committees to reconvene as soon as possible. So I agree with him. On | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
this side of the referendum result, we accept we are leaving the | :39:55. | :39:59. | |
European Union, but we need to make sure we are negotiating strong | :40:00. | :40:02. | |
transitional arrangements and there is no cliff edge for the economy. We | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
need to put a much greater priority than we have seen from the | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
government so far on retaining the benefits of the single market and | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
Customs union. We shouldn't accept watering down of workers' rights, | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
and environmental standards, as a result of Brexit. We will seek | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
significant improvements to the repeal bill to ensure there is | :40:24. | :40:30. | |
proper oversight for this use of new powers and no drop in EU rights and | :40:31. | :40:34. | |
protections. And in that context, I think what we have been discussing | :40:35. | :40:41. | |
this afternoon is really important. As the minister said, to paraphrase, | :40:42. | :40:49. | |
we will seek, on this side anyway, a strong at collaborative new | :40:50. | :40:54. | |
relationship with the EU, not as members, but as partners. On this | :40:55. | :41:00. | |
site we will seek to remain a member of common agencies that benefit the | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
UK, such as Eurojust, and I would add to that arrangements we are | :41:07. | :41:11. | |
discussing today, perhaps. We have to get this right. We are not in a | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
strong position as we enter negotiations. I want to see the | :41:17. | :41:20. | |
Prime Minister change her approach. She must drop the no deal as a | :41:21. | :41:25. | |
viable option, but a stronger emphasis on jobs, the economy and | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union, and | :41:30. | :41:33. | |
bring parliament back, as we have seen today, into the Brexit process. | :41:34. | :41:36. | |
The fact we are debating this bill shows we must retain the benefits of | :41:37. | :41:42. | |
cooperation we currently have with the EU and relationships we | :41:43. | :41:45. | |
currently have. I said at the start this Bill was only of four draft | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
decisions, but it's indicative of what is to come as we address the | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
challenges of Brexit, and as far as this bill goes, the Minister really | :41:54. | :41:56. | |
does need to answer the questions about transitional arrangements and | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
negotiations so we can continue to share information that benefit our | :42:02. | :42:04. | |
economy and the people of this country. As has already been | :42:05. | :42:14. | |
mentioned, the European scrutiny committee, of which I was chairman | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
for six years, has actually cleared these documents, and we did have | :42:20. | :42:25. | |
some reservations about one aspect of them, which was the fact that we | :42:26. | :42:30. | |
wanted to know how all of this would work out in terms of the Brexit | :42:31. | :42:37. | |
negotiations after we had left the European Union. But basically, there | :42:38. | :42:44. | |
is a necessity for this bill, because as the minister pointed out, | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
although we are leaving the EU, nonetheless we are still, under | :42:49. | :42:55. | |
sections two and three of the European Communities Act 1972, still | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
within the framework of the requirements to comply with EU | :43:00. | :43:02. | |
rights and obligations until Brexit takes effect. There are some who are | :43:03. | :43:09. | |
hoping that somehow or other, all this will be kicked into the long | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
grass and we will have arrangements that take us into a world of | :43:14. | :43:20. | |
never-never land, and it will all somehow disappear. I think there are | :43:21. | :43:25. | |
those in the House of Lords who might take that view, and there may | :43:26. | :43:28. | |
be some in the House of Commons. Although I was extremely glad to | :43:29. | :43:34. | |
note that on the issue of certain matters, particularly the single | :43:35. | :43:37. | |
market and Customs union, the decision that was taken on the | :43:38. | :43:42. | |
Queen's Speech made it clear, and subsequent events seem to have | :43:43. | :43:49. | |
confirmed that, that the Labour Party, the opposition, have actually | :43:50. | :43:54. | |
become extremely realistic about the single market and all that goes with | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
it. These sorts of arrangements are implicit in the Brexit negotiations | :43:59. | :44:06. | |
and the Brexit outcome. Returning to the issue of Albania and Serbia, | :44:07. | :44:12. | |
yes, certainly the builders have to to provide Parliamentary approval of | :44:13. | :44:20. | |
these decisions, and European scrutiny committee had no | :44:21. | :44:23. | |
reservation or concern after they had heard from the minister | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
concerned, perhaps the same minister, I am glad to say, who | :44:27. | :44:34. | |
wrote me a letter back last year. There is an important issue here, | :44:35. | :44:38. | |
however, and that is Albania and Serbia are not by definition | :44:39. | :44:45. | |
countries who are likely to become candidates during the period of our | :44:46. | :44:52. | |
own process of negotiation of exit. Mr Juncker himself has said he | :44:53. | :44:58. | |
doesn't think there will be any enlargement until after we have left | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
the European Union, and therefore, to that extent, it will not impinge | :45:03. | :45:08. | |
upon us, and we don't have to take a position specifically on Albania and | :45:09. | :45:14. | |
Serbia in terms of their candidature. I would say with | :45:15. | :45:17. | |
reference to this particular document, which makes a lot of | :45:18. | :45:21. | |
reference to the fundamental rights agency, one thing that hasn't been | :45:22. | :45:26. | |
mentioned in this debate is the Charter of fundamental rights, and | :45:27. | :45:30. | |
that is embedded in the Lisbon Treaty arrangements. It's a matter | :45:31. | :45:35. | |
of law. Although I strongly resisted our being drawn into it, we have a | :45:36. | :45:45. | |
European scrutiny committee enquiry asking how Lord Goldsmith and his | :45:46. | :45:52. | |
negotiations had failed so dramatically, that we thought we | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
were not going to be members of the Charter of fundamental rights, but | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
we ended up being in that framework. The question of the fundamental | :46:03. | :46:10. | |
rights agency, which itself deals with promoting dialogue with civil | :46:11. | :46:14. | |
society in order to raise public awareness of fundamental rights, | :46:15. | :46:17. | |
which would be part and parcel of the functions which will be carried | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
through by virtue of this bill in respect of Serbia and Albania, does | :46:23. | :46:27. | |
have something of a vacuum in it, because we will not be part of the | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
Charter of fundamental rights after we have left, but we are for the | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
time being. To that extent, there is a kind of problem which I'm not | :46:36. | :46:40. | |
going to invite the Minister to enlarge upon, I hope she is glad to | :46:41. | :46:44. | |
know. But I want to put it on the record that the Charter of | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
fundamental rights should never have applied to others in the first | :46:48. | :46:51. | |
place. It was a botched job by the then the Labour Party in government. | :46:52. | :46:56. | |
We are now saddled with the fact that we are in it, but fortunately | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
as a result of Brexit we will be coming out of it. However, the | :47:02. | :47:09. | |
agency has come as part of its role, a fight against racism, xenophobia | :47:10. | :47:13. | |
and intolerance, all of which I'm sure we would agree with as a matter | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
of principle. I think the involvement of Albania and Serbia in | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
this process will enable an element of self education to take place. | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
That's really the object of it, so that they can become more aware than | :47:28. | :47:33. | |
they previously have been. Because, take Serbia. I have been in this | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
house long enough to be here at the time of Sarajevo and all that went | :47:38. | :47:43. | |
with it, the loss of itch, -- the loss of itch -- Milosevic. These | :47:44. | :47:57. | |
were horrible people. The reality is, the breaches of the rights of | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
these people in Serbia were so horrific that it is still living | :48:03. | :48:06. | |
with us to this day. I think it would be very important for these | :48:07. | :48:14. | |
two countries, Albania and Serbia, to be incorporated and absorbed into | :48:15. | :48:19. | |
the processes by which fundamental rights are looked at. I don't like | :48:20. | :48:25. | |
the Charter of fundamental rights, not because I'm against human | :48:26. | :48:29. | |
rights, but actually because I don't like the idea that some of the | :48:30. | :48:32. | |
adjudication that do take place. That's not to say that it isn't | :48:33. | :48:36. | |
important that these two countries should be involved in that process. | :48:37. | :48:41. | |
So I don't really have any reason, any more than the committee of which | :48:42. | :48:48. | |
I was chairman at the time this was decided. We originally asked for | :48:49. | :48:55. | |
some information and further comment from the minister. We got it, and we | :48:56. | :48:59. | |
were satisfied and cleared the documents. Indeed, the documents | :49:00. | :49:05. | |
were also cleared by our counterpart in the House of Lords and so on. I | :49:06. | :49:12. | |
simply want to say on that subject that I believe what the Minister has | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
said is fair, and I wouldn't want in anyway to stand in the way of the | :49:21. | :49:26. | |
approval of this bill. I ought to say, just with reference to the | :49:27. | :49:30. | |
question of the accession process which I referred to earlier, it does | :49:31. | :49:35. | |
take quite a long time for these two countries to become members of the | :49:36. | :49:38. | |
European Union. They will come in after we have left. And there is a | :49:39. | :49:45. | |
resolution of the European Parliament on Brexit which calls for | :49:46. | :49:51. | |
the transition period to be no longer than three years. The | :49:52. | :49:55. | |
commission's negotiating guidelines for Brexit talks state that any | :49:56. | :50:00. | |
transition must be limited in time. I will just leave that on the | :50:01. | :50:05. | |
record, because some people seem to have got this idea that transition | :50:06. | :50:12. | |
is an everlasting journey. Well, it's not. We are leaving, and that's | :50:13. | :50:18. | |
that. And by the time Albania and Serbia become members of the | :50:19. | :50:22. | |
European Union, if they do, we will be out. That'll be a good thing for | :50:23. | :50:27. | |
the United Kingdom. I ought to add that the Minister for Justice, on | :50:28. | :50:35. | |
the 22nd of March 2016, which you will note before the referendum took | :50:36. | :50:42. | |
place, stated that we were committed to engaging constructively with the | :50:43. | :50:45. | |
EU and we supported enlargement of the EU to the rest of the Balkans, | :50:46. | :50:52. | |
subject to what he described as fair and firm conditionality. He made | :50:53. | :50:59. | |
much the same comment as I have just made with regard to self education, | :51:00. | :51:04. | |
saying that participation will assist both country's accession to | :51:05. | :51:10. | |
the EU. He also confirmed at that time that proposals would only move | :51:11. | :51:15. | |
forward once all the other member states had completed constitutional | :51:16. | :51:17. | |
requirements, which we are doing here. My honourable friend, the | :51:18. | :51:26. | |
member for West Dorset and North Poole raised the question of | :51:27. | :51:31. | |
Germany. They too have to have Parliamentary approval, and as far | :51:32. | :51:34. | |
as I am aware that will be forthcoming. They have an interest | :51:35. | :51:42. | |
in a continuation of the EU in a way we do not. Turning to the EU Canada | :51:43. | :51:48. | |
competition and cooperation enforcement, this was again approved | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
and cleared by the European scrutiny committee. I declare an interest as | :51:53. | :52:00. | |
somebody who served on that committee in the last parliament. As | :52:01. | :52:03. | |
my honourable friend received any assurances as to when the committee | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
will be reconstituted, and will he agree with me that it is absolutely | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
necessary that is a matter of urgency that committee is | :52:13. | :52:12. | |
reconstituted? I'm glad to respond, we have been | :52:13. | :52:23. | |
engaged on the subject, when the house was dissolved for the general | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
election, to write to the Chief Whip, and to ask him to be sure that | :52:29. | :52:36. | |
we did get the committee reconstituted. Immediately after the | :52:37. | :52:41. | |
election, because the last time, in 2015, the whole process went on | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
until I think it was November. By which time, we had a monument of | :52:47. | :52:52. | |
documents, and of course, in the meantime, many things are now being | :52:53. | :52:59. | |
decided in the European institutions. Many are directly | :53:00. | :53:07. | |
relevant to Brexit negotiations, so it is incredibly important that they | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
should have the opportunity to assess the sorts of things which are | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
being decided, subject to clearing these documents. As honourable | :53:15. | :53:21. | |
members may know, some do, so don't, I have to say. If we impose a | :53:22. | :53:26. | |
scrutiny reserve on the document, it's important enough to be debated, | :53:27. | :53:30. | |
and Council ministers cannot conclude consideration of those | :53:31. | :53:33. | |
matters and the government cannot make a decision to carry the matter | :53:34. | :53:42. | |
through, until that debate has taken place. When you have a whole pile of | :53:43. | :53:46. | |
documents, I understand it was something in the order of 200 at the | :53:47. | :53:52. | |
moment, that are in the pipeline, with the memoranda that go with | :53:53. | :53:55. | |
them, explaining the government position, that would be highly | :53:56. | :54:00. | |
interesting in terms of the position the government is adopting, with | :54:01. | :54:04. | |
regard to negotiation positions on those documents. What my honourable | :54:05. | :54:10. | |
friend rightly raises is the question of getting on with this | :54:11. | :54:14. | |
job, and I'm given to understand, without committing anybody to | :54:15. | :54:19. | |
anything, that they are taking steps to accelerate the process because it | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
is so important, and later this afternoon we will be discussing | :54:24. | :54:26. | |
other select committees which will have their schedules shorted | :54:27. | :54:33. | |
agricultural to it and -- their schedules sorted, and the leadership | :54:34. | :54:40. | |
of those committees will be decided upon. I understand they have been | :54:41. | :54:44. | |
subject to discussion between the usual channels. I'm not expected | :54:45. | :54:53. | |
expecting it to be terribly controversial but we need to get | :54:54. | :54:58. | |
ahead with it, if I can turn to the question of the Canada agreement. To | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
say that I entirely endorse what the minister said about this, again, | :55:05. | :55:13. | |
this matter was the subject of discussion within the European | :55:14. | :55:17. | |
Scrutiny Committee, and we agreed that we would let it go ahead, and I | :55:18. | :55:33. | |
will say, however, that explanatory notes on the bill are regarding the | :55:34. | :55:38. | |
EU after Brexit, that is the bit we need to be most concerned about at | :55:39. | :55:46. | |
the moment. What business indicate is following the UK exit from the | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
EU, UK companies operating within the EU will still be subject to the | :55:53. | :55:57. | |
jurisdiction of the European Commission in entering trust | :55:58. | :56:01. | |
negotiations, and where thresholds are met, in merger investigations | :56:02. | :56:05. | |
and in the same way as other non-EU companies operating with the EU, | :56:06. | :56:09. | |
information relating to EU companies based in the EU would still be | :56:10. | :56:12. | |
transferable under the new agreement. This is becoming a bit of | :56:13. | :56:21. | |
a hot potato. We had at the other day, I made a representation to the | :56:22. | :56:29. | |
Prime Minister on citizens writes, we had questions on city regulation | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
and here we are having it coming up again. I think some people are | :56:35. | :56:38. | |
making too much of this, trying to make out that somehow or another, | :56:39. | :56:45. | |
there's an enormous amount emerging on programmes were sometimes we find | :56:46. | :56:49. | |
ourselves listening and perhaps we should switch off! The real problem | :56:50. | :56:56. | |
here is that we've got to say in the European Court of Justice -- got to | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
stay. This is complete rubbish, we do not have to stay. But far more | :57:02. | :57:07. | |
than that, we are not can to stay in the European Court of Justice. The | :57:08. | :57:11. | |
reason is, we will be repealing sections two and three of the | :57:12. | :57:17. | |
European Communities Act 1972, and I know the Labour Party and the | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
opposition have been quite clear that we will not stay in the single | :57:21. | :57:23. | |
market with the customs union and that raises some of the biggest | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
issues relating to the European Court of Justice. Frankly, what | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
we've got to do is come up with some sensible arrangements, without, as I | :57:34. | :57:43. | |
said in the house the other day, without prejudice to regaining our | :57:44. | :57:46. | |
judicial sovereignty, at the same time to arrive at some sort of | :57:47. | :57:52. | |
tribunal which would enable us to be able, by the use of a parallel, | :57:53. | :57:58. | |
bilateral, what is known as a source of law agreement. To end up with a | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
decision-making process which does not and cannot keep us in the | :58:03. | :58:09. | |
European Court of Justice. It isn't a matter of opinion or wishful | :58:10. | :58:15. | |
thinking, it's a fantasyland. I thank the honourable gentleman for | :58:16. | :58:20. | |
giving way. I would like to ask the honourable gentleman about the case | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
of the British company at the moment, which, under our current | :58:25. | :58:27. | |
competition agreement with the EU, if a British company has got a case | :58:28. | :58:33. | |
which they believe his anti-competitive with a European | :58:34. | :58:37. | |
company, they can take direct redress, whereas under the | :58:38. | :58:42. | |
relationships between the EU, the UK and Canada, although we will have | :58:43. | :58:46. | |
competition corporation, if we pass this bill, there will be no direct | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
redress for a British company if they are concerned by the | :58:52. | :58:54. | |
anti-competitive activities of a Canadian company. Whilst I | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
completely understand your concerns with the European Court of Justice | :59:00. | :59:02. | |
going forward, one of the things we do want to see, with our largest | :59:03. | :59:07. | |
trading partner, is a means of address and enforcement which means | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
British companies will be able to take direct redress with our largest | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
trading partner when they need to. Does the honourable member think | :59:16. | :59:20. | |
that they EEA model might be of interest here? I'm not at all | :59:21. | :59:28. | |
convinced by the EEA route, I don't want to get into all of that now, | :59:29. | :59:35. | |
but the EEA involves the EU. Eft is a different story, I specifically | :59:36. | :59:38. | |
raised it with the Prime Minister a few years ago, because I have been | :59:39. | :59:47. | |
having fruitful discussions with the president of the EFTA court and his | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
advisers, he has been speaking to the Foreign Office and others, as | :59:52. | :59:55. | |
chairman of the European scrutiny committee and others. It's an | :59:56. | :00:01. | |
interesting proposition. I am not saying we will do exactly the same | :00:02. | :00:06. | |
in terms of resolving jurisdiction questions as it happens at the | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
moment with EFTA but the advantage of the EFTA model is that it is | :00:11. | :00:18. | |
completely independent of the EU. It follows the European Court of | :00:19. | :00:21. | |
Justice decisions for the most part. Not always. And graduate have | :00:22. | :00:29. | |
noticed that, not many people have. What is important is this is where | :00:30. | :00:35. | |
we end up, having a constructive discussion about the best means of | :00:36. | :00:40. | |
being cousins rather than brothers and sisters. As I put you into | :00:41. | :00:44. | |
mentioned earlier on. We all have a mutual interest in ensuring that we | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
have a proper jurisdiction or answer to these questions, and I'm not | :00:50. | :00:53. | |
going to attempt to design a model standing on my feet here and now. | :00:54. | :00:57. | |
But I think it may be something along the lines of a retired... I | :00:58. | :01:05. | |
don't want to be held to this, but I'm giving it as a thought. Perhaps | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
a retired judge from the European Court, together with a retired | :01:12. | :01:14. | |
member of our Supreme Court, and an independent judge to go with it. | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
Effectively you get the benefit of listening to the arguments which | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
breach the two jurisdictions -- porridge. We are interested for the | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
sake of the companies which my honourable friend has just referred | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
to -- porridge. To nature that we give them the answers they need. It | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
is a practical question. To answer the general point we made, I think | :01:42. | :01:47. | |
it is important, we need to make sure that we end up with something | :01:48. | :01:51. | |
that works, without prejudice to our legislative sovereignty, and at the | :01:52. | :02:00. | |
same time, providing an answer to the people who we have to serve as | :02:01. | :02:05. | |
members of Parliament within our constituencies and throughout the | :02:06. | :02:09. | |
UK. With those words, Mr Deputy Speaker, many congratulations to | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
you, if I may, for the first time on seeing you here yet again! As you | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
may have noticed, I'm still here as well! For practical purposes, I draw | :02:19. | :02:24. | |
my speech to a conclusion by saying I don't in any way want to interfere | :02:25. | :02:28. | |
with the process because it's not really going to affect us in the | :02:29. | :02:33. | |
longer term but actually it is important that we act in a sensible | :02:34. | :02:36. | |
and responsible manner, to ensure that we do not rock the boat in the | :02:37. | :02:43. | |
meantime. Andrew? Thank you. Since it is also my first opportunity, may | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
I congratulate you on coming back to the chair, Mr Deputy Speaker? I'm | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
grateful to the minister setting out the provisions of this bill on the | :02:53. | :02:56. | |
first two draft decisions, we welcome the opportunity to give | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
support to the participation of Albania and Serbia as observers in | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
the EU agency for fundamental rights. As the agency says, | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
fundamental rights sets up minimal standards to make sure a person is | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
treated with dignity. Whether this is the right to be free from | :03:14. | :03:18. | |
discrimination on the basis of your age, ability or ethnic background, | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
these rights should be respected, promoted and protected. They are | :03:26. | :03:33. | |
shared values, with the SNP and the Scottish Government, and we have | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
them dear. For example, we demonstrate this in Scotland by | :03:38. | :03:41. | |
using limited new powers to build a social security system with dignity | :03:42. | :03:46. | |
at the heart. Contrast with the UK Government rolling out dysfunctional | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
Universal Credit regime, punishing the disabled, those on low wages and | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
be vulnerable. Regarding Serbia and Albania, while there is a lot of | :03:55. | :03:58. | |
work to be done, this is an important step for both countries on | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
their journey to improving the lives of citizens. They deserve credit for | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
their repressed and we know joining the EU is also the will of both | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
nations. Serbia was formally announced as an EU candidate in | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
2012, it has already opened ten 35 chapters of succession. Last week, | :04:18. | :04:24. | |
Serbia's newly elected Prime Minister talked of a strategic | :04:25. | :04:30. | |
orientation towards the EU, which represents the values that we stand | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
for. She stated that is the place where Serbia should be. Similarly, | :04:35. | :04:39. | |
elections in Albania this week showed once again a renewed | :04:40. | :04:44. | |
commitment to the EU. The two largest parties are pro-EU and a | :04:45. | :04:50. | |
survey has shown that over 95% of citizens support EU membership. In | :04:51. | :04:56. | |
their commitment to EU, they have shown willingness and a commitment | :04:57. | :04:59. | |
to improving fundamental rights of their citizens and to restoring | :05:00. | :05:07. | |
peace. They see the EU as a vehicle for peace across Europe. Indeed, | :05:08. | :05:11. | |
it's worthwhile recalling, since his name has been mentioned already | :05:12. | :05:17. | |
today, Juncker's tribute to the recently deceased German Chancellor | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
Helmut Kohl, he said that it was on the day that they decided to march | :05:22. | :05:28. | |
south east, in a voice choked with tears, he said it was one of the | :05:29. | :05:32. | |
most beautiful days of his life that he, as German Chancellor, could | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
bring Europe back together again after all the harm Germany caused. | :05:37. | :05:43. | |
Juncker said as his friend that nobody was embarrassed by his tears, | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
it was Europe at its best. We play at a small part in the rights of | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
people across the Western Balkans as a great thing. What a shame that our | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
government, this UK Government, is hell-bent on pulling Scotland out of | :05:58. | :06:00. | |
the very partnership that delivers these protections. This is despite | :06:01. | :06:07. | |
people in every Scottish local authority voting to remain in the | :06:08. | :06:12. | |
EU. It's also not lost on us that the bill comes days after the | :06:13. | :06:17. | |
fundamental rights of people, in particular and those of the LGBT | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
community in Northern Ireland, being questioned because of a back door | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
deal with the DUP, to keep this Tory government in power. I'm happy to | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
give way. When it comes to protecting the human rights of those | :06:31. | :06:36. | |
in the UK, be that Scotland, or Northern Ireland, is it the | :06:37. | :06:40. | |
convention, which is by far the most important of asserting those rights, | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
and we need to keep that in mind? The honourable gentleman makes a | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
good point about the mention of the convention but we need to take every | :06:48. | :06:51. | |
opportunity to make sure we protect the rights of citizens. Mr Speaker, | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
turning to the third and fourth draft decisions, we on the SNP bench | :06:57. | :07:02. | |
welcome further formalisation of the working relationship between Canada | :07:03. | :07:05. | |
and the EU in regard to competition laws. These draft decisions in | :07:06. | :07:10. | |
particular serve as a reminder of the good business and trading | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
opportunities the EU provides for the UK. A bad Brexit deal, or the | :07:14. | :07:18. | |
fact you're scum of ludicrous idea of no deal, will make | :07:19. | :07:26. | |
or a fractured or ludicrous idea of no deal. Scotland could lose as | :07:27. | :07:39. | |
much. Independent estimates could cost 80,000 jobs in a decade. The | :07:40. | :07:44. | |
average wage could fall by ?2000 per year per head. But this... | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
For the record, could the member confirm that Scotland's largest | :07:50. | :07:54. | |
trading partner is the rest of the United Kingdom? I'm happy to confirm | :07:55. | :08:01. | |
that, but I'm also happy to point out how important Scotland is for | :08:02. | :08:05. | |
the rest of the UK in terms of a trading partner. This treaty shows | :08:06. | :08:10. | |
that there are many impending costs of hard Brexit. The rights of | :08:11. | :08:16. | |
citizens who might find they face additional burdens. The library | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
notes in this legislation, as the Minister mentioned earlier, says | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
that it carries no cost to the government, but that doesn't mean | :08:26. | :08:27. | |
subsequently losing these protections were on the no cost to | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
our citizens and businesses. Areas of EU competition regulation, for | :08:36. | :08:41. | |
example, anti-trust, cartels, mergers and state aid, the sectors | :08:42. | :08:45. | |
covered, agriculture and food, consumer goods, energy and | :08:46. | :08:50. | |
environment, financial services, information and communication | :08:51. | :08:54. | |
technologies, media, motor vehicles, pharmaceuticals, postal professional | :08:55. | :08:59. | |
services, sport, telecommunications and transport. It's yet another | :09:00. | :09:03. | |
example, and we have heard no update today on where we have no clarity | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
from the UK Government over Brexit proposals from them on something | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
fundamental to UK companies operating in the EU. And ultimately | :09:12. | :09:20. | |
and importantly to our citizens, this agreement will mean information | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
obtained during the competition enforcement investigations may be | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
discussed and transferred between the European communication and the | :09:29. | :09:34. | |
Canadian competition bureau. It's intended to increase the to conclude | :09:35. | :09:41. | |
competition and enforcement regulations efficiently, and it | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
should be welcome. We are advised to follow in the UK's exit from the | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
European Union, UK companies operating within the EU will still | :09:50. | :10:00. | |
be subject to the jurisdiction, so will the Minister confirm with food | :10:01. | :10:05. | |
that agreement has been met and when it was decided. Mr Deputy Speaker, | :10:06. | :10:11. | |
as we know following the 2.4 billion euros fine on Google, the EU is | :10:12. | :10:17. | |
considering giving tougher competition powers to allow for | :10:18. | :10:22. | |
earlier and faster intervention in potential anti-trust cases. After | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
Brexit the UK will have no say over these types of decisions, which | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
could potentially involve UK companies. How does this government | :10:30. | :10:35. | |
intend to deal with the indication for businesses and consumers of | :10:36. | :10:40. | |
having no voice in the direction of EU competition law? I think we | :10:41. | :10:43. | |
really need to hear some commitments. The Right Honourable | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
member for Stone didn't want to be held to anything, but isn't it about | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
time the UK Government were held to at least some things on the future? | :10:52. | :10:55. | |
While we on these benches are keen to approve these draft decisions, | :10:56. | :11:01. | |
the nature of the bill shows how deep and wide our current | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
protections are in the EU. In Scotland we remain determined to | :11:07. | :11:10. | |
give people hope for the future. And for the protections they currently | :11:11. | :11:13. | |
take for granted, that they will continue to benefit from them, for | :11:14. | :11:18. | |
their families and businesses. I believe there are many people on all | :11:19. | :11:23. | |
sides of this chamber who are passionate about dignity, freedom | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
sand protections, as I and we in the SNP are. Whatever the future holds, | :11:28. | :11:32. | |
it will be important for those voices to make themselves heard. And | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
when they do, we will be ready to support them. The next speaker. I | :11:38. | :11:49. | |
think this is a time for everyone to make congratulations to the Deputy | :11:50. | :11:56. | |
Speaker on your successful real action. Let me do so again on behalf | :11:57. | :12:02. | |
of the whole house. Let me reflect on what we are doing here... As my | :12:03. | :12:08. | |
honourable friend the member for Stone has said, we are not going to | :12:09. | :12:14. | |
be here, we're not going to be in the EU when Albania and Serbia are | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
admitted as members. So we are taking a role as members now of the | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
European Union, to set out something for their benefit for the future. I | :12:26. | :12:32. | |
think that's an important point to remember. We are acting responsibly | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
with our membership now of the European Union. We are not simply | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
washing our hands of two countries that I will comment on in a moment. | :12:42. | :12:47. | |
I think that's a very important point to make. The question I asked | :12:48. | :12:54. | |
in my intervention of the Minister, of what is the difference between | :12:55. | :12:58. | |
the agency for fundamental rights, and what the Council of Europe does, | :12:59. | :13:03. | |
is a very relevant one. The description she gave what the agency | :13:04. | :13:07. | |
does was exactly what the Council of does. And I could not get a | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
cigarette paper between the two definitions. As many other members | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
have made by way of intervention, many of us as members of the Council | :13:19. | :13:24. | |
of Europe, are actively involved in the process of monitoring Albania | :13:25. | :13:29. | |
and Serbia and their participation, for example, in elections. And we | :13:30. | :13:34. | |
will continue to do so for many years after we have left the | :13:35. | :13:37. | |
European Union. Because the Council of Europe is not an EU body, and | :13:38. | :13:43. | |
therefore we will continue, I hope, anyway, as members of the Council of | :13:44. | :13:50. | |
Europe, with its subsidiary body, if I can use that phrase, which is the | :13:51. | :13:57. | |
short European Court of Human Rights. It's important to recognise | :13:58. | :14:01. | |
that it's the Council of Europe that owns the European Court of Human | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
Rights and owns the convention. I will come on to say something about | :14:06. | :14:12. | |
that in just a second. But in terms of Serbia and Albania, as my | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
honourable friend from South Suffolk said, we shouldn't take lightly the | :14:19. | :14:26. | |
situation in Serbia. I have spent many years in Central and Eastern | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
Europe in order to help develop those countries along the path of | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
democracy and market economy. It seems to me to be only a few years | :14:36. | :14:41. | |
ago that we were looking at a Serbia that was full of warlords, that was | :14:42. | :14:46. | |
full of all the banks of the Balkans at the time. -- full of the angst of | :14:47. | :15:03. | |
the Balkans. I spent a lot of time working with Serbian members of | :15:04. | :15:07. | |
Parliament. This was done on a cross-party basis. One of the | :15:08. | :15:10. | |
members was actually a Serbian Socialist member of Parliament, who | :15:11. | :15:16. | |
I had the extreme pleasure of working with. But they have come so | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
far in what they are trying to do, in what they have achieved, and | :15:22. | :15:27. | |
where they are going. The cooperation that we had encompassed | :15:28. | :15:34. | |
all the areas, all the three areas that the Council of Europe looks | :15:35. | :15:38. | |
after, which are democracy, human rights and the rule of law. I think | :15:39. | :15:44. | |
it's important to stress those. Because Serbia, we have two | :15:45. | :15:55. | |
incidents, two examples of Serbia's problems in the region. One is | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
Kosovo, where members of the European Union, still some members | :16:02. | :16:05. | |
do not recognise Kosovo as a separate state. And Montenegro. I'm | :16:06. | :16:12. | |
pleased to say that at the last Council of Europe meeting we had the | :16:13. | :16:15. | |
Prime Minister of Montenegro come to talk to us. That shows the enormous | :16:16. | :16:23. | |
respect there is between these two countries for their respective | :16:24. | :16:24. | |
institutions and for their individual members of those | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
institutions. Albania is a slightly different case. Albania was, I | :16:32. | :16:37. | |
think, the 35th member of the Council of Europe. And we still | :16:38. | :16:43. | |
monitor Albanian elections very closely. In fact, I was invited to | :16:44. | :16:51. | |
go and be a monitor of the recent Albanian elections, but was unable | :16:52. | :16:54. | |
to do so because of a general election here. I think what we have | :16:55. | :17:03. | |
seen their is an enormous difficulty, and an enormous | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
difficulty of corruption, for example. I am the Prime Minister's | :17:07. | :17:12. | |
trade envoy to Nigeria, a place that has a reputation for corruption, but | :17:13. | :17:17. | |
I can tell you that Albania runs at a very close second in terms of the | :17:18. | :17:21. | |
level of corruption that we see there. I said to an honourable | :17:22. | :17:26. | |
friend that I would say that during this debate and he said, you better | :17:27. | :17:32. | |
watch out, there are gangs of Albanians wondering about wanting to | :17:33. | :17:35. | |
throw you into the back of a brute of a car and do away with you. Well, | :17:36. | :17:41. | |
I have said it and taken at risk. What the minister set out as the | :17:42. | :17:48. | |
responsibilities for the agency, that it collect, analyses and | :17:49. | :17:52. | |
disseminate subjective, reliable and comparable information related to | :17:53. | :17:55. | |
the situation of fundamental rights in the EU. As I said earlier, I see | :17:56. | :18:00. | |
no difference between that and what the Council of Europe does. If I can | :18:01. | :18:06. | |
turn to what the Council of Europe is doing in Serbia and Albania. | :18:07. | :18:11. | |
Taking Serbia first, what the Council of Europe is doing is | :18:12. | :18:15. | |
strengthening the capacities for law enforcement and judiciary in that | :18:16. | :18:19. | |
country. Specifically in the fight against corruption. An additional | :18:20. | :18:26. | |
project aims to harmonise Court practices and raise judges' | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
capacities to ensure consistent applications of the judgments of the | :18:32. | :18:36. | |
European Court of Human Rights. Those seem to me to be identical to | :18:37. | :18:41. | |
the activities that the agency undertakes on behalf of the EU. I do | :18:42. | :18:46. | |
think there ought to be considerable cooperation between the Council of | :18:47. | :18:52. | |
Europe and the agency in order to take these things forward. I would | :18:53. | :18:57. | |
like to point out as well, and this indicates how far Serbia has come, | :18:58. | :19:02. | |
that Serbia plays an active role on a regional basis in promoting | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
minority protection. That includes particularly protection for the Roma | :19:07. | :19:14. | |
community and an inclusive form of education. If we turn to Albania for | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
a second, the overall strategic objective in Albania of the Council | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
of Europe, is to promote the reform agenda. That's right across a number | :19:25. | :19:30. | |
of different sectors. And the protection of human rights, | :19:31. | :19:35. | |
anti-discrimination, the fight against corruption and organised | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
crime. Reform of the judiciary. And particularly, freedom of the media | :19:41. | :19:44. | |
and free and fair elections in line with general European standards is | :19:45. | :19:50. | |
all part of the efforts to increase good governance and democratic | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
participation. I know Albania has a long way to go behind the other | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
countries of the Council of Europe and the EU in being able to take its | :20:03. | :20:10. | |
agenda forward, but nevertheless, the council is working on that will | :20:11. | :20:16. | |
stop and while it would be churlish of me to deny the rights of Serbia | :20:17. | :20:24. | |
and Albania to be members of the agency on the basis that is set out | :20:25. | :20:29. | |
in the bill and in the agreement with them, I do think that the | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
European scrutiny committee could have looked more carefully at what | :20:35. | :20:39. | |
the Council of Europe is doing in this area and could have pointed out | :20:40. | :20:45. | |
the overlap between what the Council of Europe is doing and what the | :20:46. | :20:50. | |
agency is trying to do. We have talked about the length of time it | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
takes for access and to take place. I would suggest the accession takes | :20:55. | :21:03. | |
such a long time because there is very little in the way of | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
cooperation and harmonisation in the individual organisations involved in | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
this are trying to do. Those are the comments I would make on Serbia and | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
Albania. I do think they should be admitted. To answer the question | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
that was made by the honourable gentleman who isn't in his seat any | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
more from the other benches about what we do to put pressure on Serbia | :21:28. | :21:36. | |
and Albania, they have come out of a horrendous period in their history. | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
The thing we have to do is welcome them into our institutions. The | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
thing we have to do most of all, and this is where we work very | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
effectively in the Council of Europe in this, is not necessarily to | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
harmonise the legislation to make it compliant with the EU as the agency | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
does. All of that can be taken care of. What we do is to work with them | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
to include them as part of the bigger European family, and to put | :22:08. | :22:13. | |
the pressure on them to act in the right way in their own countries. As | :22:14. | :22:19. | |
those other members of the Council of Europe will affirm, I'm sure, | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
that is a practice that is very effective in the way of dealing with | :22:25. | :22:30. | |
this issue. So I do welcome them in this. I can't think of a reason to | :22:31. | :22:37. | |
keep them out of it. But I would just ask for more cooperation across | :22:38. | :22:44. | |
the board there. If I can turn very briefly to the Canadian competition | :22:45. | :22:45. | |
issue... If I can turn to the Canadian | :22:46. | :22:55. | |
competition issue, other speakers have commented on it, personally I | :22:56. | :22:59. | |
see no difficulty in exchanging information and having a better | :23:00. | :23:02. | |
system for exchange information, whether via the EU or with Canada | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
directly. As a result of activities that take place. On that note, Mr | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
Deputy Speaker, I will sit down. Ian Paisley. Thank you, Mr Deputy | :23:14. | :23:20. | |
Speaker, on the brief comments I wish to make, let me add my | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
congratulations to you, as you fulfil what has become your rightful | :23:25. | :23:27. | |
place in this house. In sharing these proceedings as Deputy Speaker, | :23:28. | :23:33. | |
it's good to see you in your place. It's also a privilege to follow | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
after some of the speeches made here today, especially the speech made by | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
the right honourable gentleman from stone, I often think when he speaks | :23:42. | :23:45. | |
on these issues, that his constituency is so badly | :23:46. | :23:51. | |
underwhelmed in terms of its naming, it should be called the ruck, though | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
right honourable gentleman acts like the ruck, solid on these issues -- | :23:56. | :24:07. | |
the rock. Such skill in this particular area, I wholeheartedly | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
concur but the point that he put before the house, that the scrutiny | :24:13. | :24:16. | |
committee on these issues should be reactivated and done so very | :24:17. | :24:22. | |
quickly. As we exit the EU, we will need to scrutinise these matters | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
very clearly, and very closely, and spend some time ensuring that we | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
consider the details that will, of course, come up during the exit | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
process. The scrutiny committee is a vehicle that could be used for that | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
advantage and I wish them well in his quest to have the committee | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
re-established. I also agree in the terms of the point he made about the | :24:46. | :24:49. | |
Charter of rights, I think it is an absolute dog's dinner, and I will | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
not invite the Minister to comment on that, but I do think that he made | :24:54. | :24:59. | |
a valid point in that regard. Of course, much of the shared values | :25:00. | :25:10. | |
that we co-write today indiscretions kingdom, under our own rights | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
-based, law, we too quickly cast but aside and think all of these rights | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
were given to us by the EU. Of course, we bestowed much of the | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
principles and fundamental principles of rights to our | :25:25. | :25:28. | |
neighbouring states, and last year, indeed, in a display in Westminster | :25:29. | :25:33. | |
Hall, it's celebrated many of the fundamental rights originating year | :25:34. | :25:36. | |
from employment rights, right the way through to anti-slavery | :25:37. | :25:41. | |
activities. I think we should take more pride that this nation is the | :25:42. | :25:46. | |
bastion of rights, and has encouraged rights around the world, | :25:47. | :25:53. | |
and I also agree with the point made by the honourable gentleman on the | :25:54. | :25:57. | |
benches opposite, that we are not leaving the EEC HR, which is an | :25:58. | :26:06. | |
incredibly important point. -- the ECHR, it is not affected by Brexit. | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
People forget that whenever you mention Brexit, it is too commonly | :26:12. | :26:16. | |
called that we are leaving Europe, we aren't. We are leaving an | :26:17. | :26:21. | |
economic club that failed us. That is the point that needs to be made. | :26:22. | :26:32. | |
The member for Inverness, a backroom deal on rights between my party and | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
its understanding with the government of the day. I would like | :26:36. | :26:41. | |
to make it absolutely clear, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the rights of | :26:42. | :26:45. | |
the unborn child, in my view, and in the views of people in my party and | :26:46. | :26:53. | |
on this bench Trump any political agreement which is put in place. Let | :26:54. | :27:00. | |
me make that abundantly clear. If anyone thinks that we take a view | :27:01. | :27:05. | |
that we would treat the issue of life and the sanctity of life on a | :27:06. | :27:09. | |
political deal, they do not understand me and they do not | :27:10. | :27:13. | |
understand my party. They need to be aware of that. For it to be | :27:14. | :27:17. | |
characterised in that way, I think, is grossly unfair to members of my | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
party. The honourable member makes a point about something I said about | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
the deal. I was not making any point about children born or otherwise. | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
But actually about LGBT concerns, in Northern Ireland. I think you should | :27:34. | :27:43. | |
be willing to clarify? I am happy for that, but what happened in the | :27:44. | :27:46. | |
last week in this house and with the passing of the Queen's speech and | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
amendments that were not moved, reference was made to that and it | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
should be clear that in my view and in the views of my party, the | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
unborn, even in the words of Hillary Clinton, is a human being, that | :27:59. | :28:04. | |
according to science, it feels pain and knows a motion, and it is | :28:05. | :28:10. | |
fearfully and wonderfully made. -- nose in motion. I believe my party | :28:11. | :28:15. | |
will take a stand on that issue, irrespective of other agreements. In | :28:16. | :28:27. | |
the issue of competition, mentioned under the bill of competitive rights | :28:28. | :28:30. | |
which have been identified, I welcome what has been put in the | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
Labour Party manifesto on page six of the manifesto. It emphasises the | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
importance of what we are actually discussing today, when it says that | :28:39. | :28:43. | |
the Labour Party is going to ensure that we leave the EU, I welcome | :28:44. | :28:48. | |
that. When we leave the EU, it means we do not half leave it, we don't | :28:49. | :28:53. | |
partly leave it, we get out. I think that is essential, we get out the | :28:54. | :28:59. | |
customs union and get out of the single market. We cannot actually | :29:00. | :29:04. | |
address competition matters in the way that they have been identified | :29:05. | :29:09. | |
in this bill, with Canada, for example. If we do not get out of the | :29:10. | :29:13. | |
customs union. It is crucial we leave the customs union, we cannot | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
make free trade agreements with any other country unless we are free to | :29:19. | :29:23. | |
do so. So, the quest for freedom is incredibly important. This was | :29:24. | :29:29. | |
driven home to me recently in some correspondence I received from a | :29:30. | :29:33. | |
large steel processor here in the UK. Of course, I will give way. And | :29:34. | :29:39. | |
grateful for you giving way. He is raising important points to do with | :29:40. | :29:43. | |
the competition element of this bill, you touched on the | :29:44. | :29:49. | |
intervention earlier on. I wonder if you would say a little about how you | :29:50. | :29:54. | |
see the relationship between the north and south of Ireland working? | :29:55. | :29:58. | |
I will certainly comment on that, after I have made this point about | :29:59. | :30:06. | |
the steel industry. I received this note from the managing director of | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
John Reid and Sons, a massive company which has been in existence | :30:10. | :30:15. | |
for 98 years, they wrote to me and said to remain in the customs union | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
would mean that we cannot do our own trade deals with the rest of the | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
world. We have exported to over 140 countries throughout and 98 years in | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
business, and we have an idea of what we are actually talking about. | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
The customs union is a terrible tragedy for third World agriculture | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
fisheries and events proper trade. That is someone who knows what they | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
are talking about, they are at the coal face everyday. I think it is | :30:44. | :30:48. | |
important that that point is reflected in this debate. The | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
honourable member has asked me to comment on some points made about | :30:53. | :30:56. | |
how this impacts on the Republic of Ireland. I think you would be giving | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
me great leniency, if I were to speak at length today on the | :31:04. | :31:06. | |
Republic of Ireland and what a future trade deal would look like. | :31:07. | :31:11. | |
Even though you would likely consider me rule me out of order, | :31:12. | :31:14. | |
but I would like to touch upon the point. Could I commend to all | :31:15. | :31:18. | |
members of the house that they go to the library and get a copy of Policy | :31:19. | :31:23. | |
Exchange documents, which have just been published this month, written | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
by Ray Bassett, a former ambassador from the Republic of Ireland to the | :31:29. | :31:33. | |
United Nations. The title of the document is "After Brexit, will | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
Ireland be next to exit?" An important policy paper which sets | :31:38. | :31:45. | |
out compelling reasons as to why the Republic of Ireland must follow the | :31:46. | :31:50. | |
UK out of the EU. Because, if they fail to do so, it is fair trade that | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
will be ruined. It's something we have in common with Canada on this | :31:56. | :32:03. | |
point. For example, Canada's protecting fishing for its own | :32:04. | :32:07. | |
companies. We discussed at some length in the media that fishing | :32:08. | :32:11. | |
rights of the UK. Of course, in the Republic of Ireland, their fishing | :32:12. | :32:17. | |
waters are currently under finished because the Republic of Ireland | :32:18. | :32:20. | |
wants to encourage the rest of the EU to fish in our waters. Once we | :32:21. | :32:27. | |
claim those fishing waters back, Mr Deputy Speaker, the rest of the EU | :32:28. | :32:30. | |
will want to fish in Ireland's fishing waters and put pressure on | :32:31. | :32:34. | |
the Republic of Ireland and steal their catch. It is for those reasons | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
why it is essential we understand the commercial reasons that lie | :32:40. | :32:42. | |
behind why it is important for Ireland to exit the EU. I've | :32:43. | :32:47. | |
probably pushed you enough, Mr Deputy chairman, my comments on the | :32:48. | :32:50. | |
Republic of Ireland, I wish the front bench would encourage me again | :32:51. | :32:54. | |
and ask me another question on that issue, and I would push that matter | :32:55. | :33:00. | |
even further. You may not get the red flag but I think we have to make | :33:01. | :33:05. | |
it absolutely clear that the sorts of agreements, I said this earlier, | :33:06. | :33:08. | |
the sorts of agreements we discussed today with what was in the Bill | :33:09. | :33:13. | |
gently impact on a pattern of how we do, since future. -- how we do, | :33:14. | :33:21. | |
nurse in future. The Canadian aspects of this are very important. | :33:22. | :33:27. | |
It is how Canada will be treated after we leave, and the relationship | :33:28. | :33:33. | |
we have with Canada. We need to look at what is contained in this | :33:34. | :33:42. | |
particular bill. In response to the points made by the member for | :33:43. | :33:46. | |
Henley, when the UK leaves and Albania and Serbia join, I would | :33:47. | :33:50. | |
like to say, good luck with that. It will be some club to be part of at | :33:51. | :33:56. | |
that point but that would be unfair. They will ultimately be matters for | :33:57. | :34:01. | |
what is left of the EU, but by the time the Ascension rights are | :34:02. | :34:05. | |
actually achieved, I think the EU will be a very different country, | :34:06. | :34:10. | |
Surrey, a very different club to what it currently is now. When the | :34:11. | :34:17. | |
EU leads, as predicted, when Ireland leaves the EU, with Serbia and | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
Albania wishing to join, we may, at that point, consider what is in | :34:24. | :34:27. | |
their greater interests. The charges of them being a member of the EU | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
will be announced. Since 2014, the Republic of Ireland has had to pay | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
over ?1 billion to be a member, they previously paid nothing. If that is | :34:39. | :34:43. | |
what Ireland has two fork out, what world countries like Serbia and | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
Albania had to fork out in this new club and in this new arrangement? I | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
leave these points for the house today and hope the minister will | :34:53. | :35:00. | |
reflect on those and touch on those. It is a great pleasure to follow the | :35:01. | :35:05. | |
member for North Antrim who speaks with eloquence and with authority as | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
ever. Let me pick up with those issues raised at the beginning of | :35:09. | :35:11. | |
his speech. It's the first opportunity I have had to | :35:12. | :35:17. | |
congratulate you, and I do so under your election. It's the first | :35:18. | :35:21. | |
opportunity I had to say how delighted I am to return, and I will | :35:22. | :35:30. | |
do my very upmost to repay that trust that my constituents have put | :35:31. | :35:36. | |
in me. I will make a short contribution to this debate. This | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
afternoon. Not least because I see some honourable colleagues who want | :35:42. | :35:46. | |
to cut sure I, Mr Deputy Speaker. I stand here as someone who voted to | :35:47. | :35:51. | |
leave the EU, who has an optimistic vision of our country outside of the | :35:52. | :35:55. | |
EU. But the irony is not lost on me. That this afternoon we are debating, | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
two countries who want to accede to the EU, whilst we, the UK, are in | :36:02. | :36:07. | |
fact leaving the European Union. Be that as it may, it's an important | :36:08. | :36:12. | |
debate and it is important that we get it right. As the minister said, | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
at the dispatch box and in correspondence, it is important that | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
while we are still a member of the EU, that we fully engage in the | :36:22. | :36:27. | |
subject, and that is what we are doing this afternoon. Mr Deputy | :36:28. | :36:30. | |
Speaker, a rather helpful explanatory note, and indeed with | :36:31. | :36:36. | |
the honourable member for central Sefton, he is temporarily out of his | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
seat. And other honourable members, they have mention the European | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
Scrutiny Committee. It is clear the works of that committee permeate | :36:45. | :36:49. | |
throughout this bill. Although that is not the purpose of this bill, I'm | :36:50. | :36:52. | |
delighted it gives me the opportunity to say what an important | :36:53. | :36:57. | |
job that committee does. I once again declare an interest having | :36:58. | :37:00. | |
served on that committee, but I would like to reaffirm the point | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
that I think it is essential that the scrutiny committee gets up and | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
running as quickly as possible and the former chairman of the | :37:09. | :37:13. | |
committee, and I hope the next chairman of the committee, the | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
honourable member for Stone, emphasises there are documents | :37:18. | :37:21. | |
piling up even as I speak. I simply re-the point and the -- reemphasise | :37:22. | :37:30. | |
the point and the urgency and on the order paper there is no reference to | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
the scrutiny committee and the debates later on this afternoon. | :37:37. | :37:41. | |
Picking up on one point, Mr Deputy Speaker. The very first occasion the | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
scrutiny committee did not clear this legislation from scrutiny, but | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
required further clarification. I'm delighted the Minister in her place | :37:52. | :37:55. | |
provided that clarification, which enabled the scrutiny committee to | :37:56. | :37:59. | |
clear this document from committee and enabled this process to happen. | :38:00. | :38:06. | |
We of course must emphasise we are leaving the EU but for as long as we | :38:07. | :38:10. | |
remain members we will play a full and sensible part, that is what we | :38:11. | :38:14. | |
do this afternoon and Mr Deputy Speaker I'm delighted to have played | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
a very small part in this debate this afternoon. | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
It is a pleasure to be speaking from the backbenches once again. I had | :38:26. | :38:33. | |
almost forgotten about the whole standing up and sitting down thing. | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
I want to welcome this legislation and offer it my support. In so doing | :38:37. | :38:44. | |
I want to speak to the provisions as they specific relate to Canada and | :38:45. | :38:48. | |
broaden them out within the realms of the debate and within the Bill, | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
about our relationship more generally with Canada and moving | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
forward. I do this as a former trade envoy to Canada, a role I very much | :38:58. | :39:01. | |
enjoyed before I was made a minister. It is one I think we need | :39:02. | :39:06. | |
to fill again at some point in the near future and I can think of one | :39:07. | :39:14. | |
or two possible candidates for that. Tall, dark handsome, former | :39:15. | :39:18. | |
ministers from the North of England, for example. Where are they, in | :39:19. | :39:27. | |
deed! It is very nice to have a bill before the House today naming | :39:28. | :39:33. | |
Canada, because it was 150 years ago since the British, North America act | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
which established the Confederation of Canada and the celebrations took | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
place throughout Canada for that. It is nice 150 years later to be | :39:44. | :39:49. | |
recognising Canada's birthday. And also to be recognising the | :39:50. | :39:56. | |
200-year-old birthday of the bank of Montreal, which is the bank with the | :39:57. | :39:59. | |
longest presence in the United Kingdom. The competition provisions | :40:00. | :40:04. | |
in this piece of legislation are very sensible and they operate on a | :40:05. | :40:08. | |
basis for future relationships with Canada once we have left the | :40:09. | :40:14. | |
European Union. I want to use this debate in my few words this | :40:15. | :40:18. | |
afternoon to explain why I feel this particular relationship is so | :40:19. | :40:22. | |
important and is worthy of more attention from Her Majesty's | :40:23. | :40:28. | |
government over these coming years. We have the important shared | :40:29. | :40:32. | |
heritage with Canada, one which has been strengthened through conflict | :40:33. | :40:38. | |
and war. It was a reminder just recently, when the Bletchley Park | :40:39. | :40:41. | |
commemorative badge was presented by our representative in Ottawa to | :40:42. | :40:52. | |
96-year-olds Sonia Morrow rips Sinclair who escaped from the | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
approaching Nazi armies in Czechoslovakia and worked in the | :40:57. | :41:11. | |
important work with signals. It is obviously have a shared language, | :41:12. | :41:16. | |
shared legal system and shared government. It is a relationship | :41:17. | :41:22. | |
that post Brexit can flourish on those commonalities and it makes | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
economic sense for us to develop this relationship more closely. UK | :41:29. | :41:40. | |
experts to Canada in 2015... Exports to Canada. We have commonalities and | :41:41. | :41:47. | |
agreements be that on the provisions of this bill and competition but | :41:48. | :41:53. | |
also with regards to the recently agreed EU and Canada trade Treaty, | :41:54. | :41:58. | |
which is a good basis of a treaty between this country and Canada once | :41:59. | :42:04. | |
we leave. Because of the nature of European decision-making, I think we | :42:05. | :42:08. | |
can do better following our exit from the European Union on the basis | :42:09. | :42:12. | |
of that relationship. We are well placed to succeed and do well from | :42:13. | :42:17. | |
that relationship post Brexit. Not least because of the friendly | :42:18. | :42:21. | |
business environment and shared heritage, but of our strong presence | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
in the market, in particular as a result of investment from this | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
government, and I knew that and saw that for myself and so have valued | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
it was in my time as a trade envoy. We had an excellent team led by the | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
High Commissioner Howard Drake, who was very well regarded. But also by | :42:42. | :42:47. | |
our consul general and director of trading Canada, Kevin McGuirk and | :42:48. | :42:50. | |
who is based in Toronto. I saw how well regarded he was and how | :42:51. | :42:57. | |
well-connected on a business level the government was as a result of | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
those relationships. Two weeks ago I was in discussions with our consul | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
general in Vancouver, Nicole Davidson who is doing a great job. I | :43:07. | :43:12. | |
want to put a bit of meat on the bones about what we need to do more | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
to get the maximum advantage from this relationship post Brexit. I | :43:17. | :43:23. | |
talked about the need for us to recognise first of all, which I | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
think this government has, the importance of this relationship post | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
Brexit. We have the Leader of the Opposition, newly elected Leader of | :43:32. | :43:37. | |
the Opposition in Canada wrote a piece in favour of Brexit in the | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
run-up to the election. The Canadian government said it wants to be as | :43:42. | :43:44. | |
helpful as possible to us through this process. And the possible, | :43:45. | :43:50. | |
probable premiere of Alberta, Jason Kenney, was also an advocate of | :43:51. | :43:59. | |
Brexit over there. It is important to us, this relation because Canada | :44:00. | :44:04. | |
is campaigning for a place on the UN Security Council at the moment. In | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
doing that, I call on the government to recognise, not also be importance | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
of its relationship of Canada at a federal level, but recognise Canada | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
is a country of several different economies at provincial relationship | :44:19. | :44:22. | |
with those governments, three of which are represented here in the | :44:23. | :44:27. | |
United Kingdom, British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec is vitally | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
important. My page on this piece of legislation in a broad sense is for | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
us to recognise what we have achieved to the EU and to our | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
bilateral arrangements with Canada has a close relationship. But what | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
we need to do to put a bit more, as I said, meat on the bones to | :44:46. | :44:49. | |
strengthen that relationship. There is work going on for that at the | :44:50. | :44:52. | |
moment. I would call on ministers to make sure they are fully cognisant | :44:53. | :44:57. | |
of this important relationship, putting the effort and attention | :44:58. | :45:05. | |
that is required into that through visits and make sure our network is | :45:06. | :45:09. | |
as strong as it needs to be to make sure we get the good deal to replace | :45:10. | :45:15. | |
other things, into the future. It does involve a recognition of the | :45:16. | :45:20. | |
specifics of the provincial position in Canada, both politically and | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
economically. On that, I have nothing else to say, Mr Deputy | :45:25. | :45:28. | |
Speaker, other than to end where I began, which is a happy birthday to | :45:29. | :45:33. | |
Canada for its 150 years, which I am sure the House will agree with. Can | :45:34. | :45:40. | |
I just say, it is worth reminding members to get into the habit of | :45:41. | :45:45. | |
standing because then I know who wants to speak because the list is | :45:46. | :45:50. | |
changing quicker than I have seen the list change before. Somebody who | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
believes in open competitive markets because they foster in innovation, | :45:55. | :46:00. | |
create the wealth we need for public services, I believe to have those | :46:01. | :46:06. | |
free markets, we must have robust competition powers so we can take | :46:07. | :46:10. | |
action against companies that act in anti-competitive manners. In the | :46:11. | :46:17. | |
21st-century world, the economic actors are frequently more global | :46:18. | :46:22. | |
players, especially in areas like digital markets. It is important we | :46:23. | :46:26. | |
can work with other countries on competition issues. I remember a | :46:27. | :46:33. | |
couple of years ago, I was in silicon valley with politicians from | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
Germany, the Netherlands, Poland 's and the Czech Republic. Many players | :46:38. | :46:42. | |
in silicon valley where telling us about their concerns about how | :46:43. | :46:47. | |
Google was acting at the time. When I went with that group of | :46:48. | :46:52. | |
politicians to meet the head of search for Google, I have never seen | :46:53. | :46:56. | |
a company with so many lawyers in one room. Because they knew the | :46:57. | :47:02. | |
power back countries could take when acting together. It was interesting | :47:03. | :47:07. | |
couple of weeks ago to CB European Commission competition taking action | :47:08. | :47:11. | |
on a proposed fine for Google. That has some controversy and it may | :47:12. | :47:15. | |
creates a precedence of how platforms can act in the future. But | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
it is also important in a like that, that those who are taking the action | :47:21. | :47:25. | |
can be clear there is a level playing field and they are not | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
singling out, for example, an American company when they wouldn't | :47:30. | :47:33. | |
do the same to a British or a European one. One of the benefits of | :47:34. | :47:38. | |
having a co-operation deal, such as we are discussing today, is that by | :47:39. | :47:46. | |
working to -- together, it won't single out our own anchor Raqqa | :47:47. | :47:55. | |
companies on a different level of jurisdiction than others. It also | :47:56. | :47:59. | |
brings bigger resources in order to take on big cases. For the UK post | :48:00. | :48:05. | |
Brexit, we will want to make it very clear to the world we are prepared | :48:06. | :48:09. | |
to take on competition cases for very big players. So therefore, | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
being able to cooperate with other countries, is very important. Canada | :48:14. | :48:20. | |
is a dear friend to the UK, as my honourable friend has pointed out. | :48:21. | :48:24. | |
But the Canada free trade agreement, if I can talk briefly, is not the | :48:25. | :48:29. | |
perfect model for the future UK EU relationship. I remember how the | :48:30. | :48:34. | |
Canada free trade agreement removes many, many tariffs from different | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
trades. We voted it through in the European Parliament on the 15th of | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
February, the day after Valentine's Day. I remember celebrating that now | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
we would have tariff free chocolate, a great benefit!, but it also does | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
not create anything like the deep level of market access that I | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
believe this government seeks for our future relationship with Europe. | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
If we chose that model just off the shelf, it would create many new | :49:04. | :49:09. | |
nontariff barriers in areas like digital and financial services. It | :49:10. | :49:12. | |
wouldn't give anything like the regulatory cooperation level we | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
seek. British car manufacturers wouldn't even be consulted in a | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
consultation of stakeholders about potential changes to international | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
rules on card transactions. I do think we will need to have a deeper | :49:27. | :49:33. | |
model. I do think we need to make sure our competition and cooperation | :49:34. | :49:38. | |
has a dispute resolution mechanism for companies, as well as countries. | :49:39. | :49:42. | |
I was particularly pleased to hear the honourable member 4/ suggesting | :49:43. | :49:52. | |
that the courts may prove a good or interesting basis for that dispute | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
resolution going forward. Because coming from the honourable member | :49:59. | :50:08. | |
for Stoke, stone, sorry it is such a powerful message you are giving with | :50:09. | :50:12. | |
all of your experience that may be a pragmatic solution going forward. | :50:13. | :50:19. | |
Finally, I would say, and picking up from his suggestion we need to move | :50:20. | :50:25. | |
from being brothers and sisters to being close cousins, in developing | :50:26. | :50:28. | |
that future relationship, there will be areas where we need to have some | :50:29. | :50:33. | |
serious discussions and arguments. I would suggest this is not one of | :50:34. | :50:37. | |
them. Allowing other countries to come together on issues like human | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
rights and competition cooperation, it's something we should allow the | :50:44. | :50:47. | |
pass and not block and therefore, save our discussions and arguments | :50:48. | :50:52. | |
for where they are needed. Thank you. Can I join the long queue of | :50:53. | :51:01. | |
those who paid tribute to you upon your real election and the | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
outstanding role you play in this House. As the member for Sefton | :51:05. | :51:11. | |
Central said from the start, we support the European Union approval | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
is and proposals tabled by the minister today. More generally, we | :51:16. | :51:20. | |
are leaving the European Union. In that process, we will fight to put | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
jobs in the economy first, neither will we accept the watering down of | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
rights and standards. If I can say this to the honourable member from | :51:30. | :51:34. | |
North Antrim, we are right to be concerned over that. One example | :51:35. | :51:40. | |
from my past, I took the case of the Eastbourne Dustman all the way to | :51:41. | :51:44. | |
the European Court of Justice about 15 years ago, when, for ten years, | :51:45. | :51:54. | |
writes on transfer under TUPE, and had it not been for those European | :51:55. | :51:59. | |
mechanisms, we would never have seen those rights enforced in this | :52:00. | :52:04. | |
country. We will be leaving the European Union, but we will not | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
accept anything that water down rights and standards. I think he is | :52:09. | :52:13. | |
aware that under the proposed repeal bill, there would be a transposition | :52:14. | :52:19. | |
of European law into UK law under Westminster jurisdiction. Of course, | :52:20. | :52:23. | |
that would be, on the face of it, to include the rights to which he | :52:24. | :52:28. | |
referred. I think that is understood on his own front bench, is it not? | :52:29. | :52:34. | |
The rights in question under TUPE are guaranteed in British law. I | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
think what is crucial at the next age, this is not a debate for today, | :52:41. | :52:44. | |
but what is crucial at the next stage is both what happens | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
post-leaving the European Union, in terms of continuation of guarantees | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
certainty for workers and their rights, as well as enforcement | :52:55. | :52:56. | |
mechanisms in the event of there being a dispute. | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
We strongly believe in the importance of a collaborative | :53:02. | :53:07. | |
relationship with the EU, we would no longer be members but it is | :53:08. | :53:11. | |
essential that we are partners. The right honourable member for Stone | :53:12. | :53:15. | |
earlier on referred to the notion of cousins, I sometimes think the way | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
this debate is conducted by some in government, it is more akin to an | :53:20. | :53:23. | |
estranged couple in a difficult divorce. At the next age, | :53:24. | :53:28. | |
partnership will be absolutely essential which is one of the | :53:29. | :53:34. | |
principles enshrined in the Bill. It benefits Britain and on key issues, | :53:35. | :53:38. | |
like cross-border security or in this case cross-border trade. As we | :53:39. | :53:44. | |
leave the EU it is essential that we do put in place new and sensible | :53:45. | :53:48. | |
arrangements. We support the bill both because it is right, and | :53:49. | :53:53. | |
because I agree with the right honourable lady from Chelmsford who | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
I think I just promoted,! I agree with the honourable lady for | :54:01. | :54:07. | |
Chelmsford, if I can use my word, not the Hayes, it amounts to the | :54:08. | :54:11. | |
same as her words, it would be wrong to nip it on -- nit-pick on a | :54:12. | :54:19. | |
measure of this kind. In terms of the substantive issues, on the | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
participation of Albania and Serbia on the work of the agency for | :54:24. | :54:29. | |
fundamental rights, we have heard, I think, powerful contributions, | :54:30. | :54:31. | |
including from the honourable member for Henley, as to the origins of the | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
F RA and why it is so important, not least because it was an initiative | :54:38. | :54:43. | |
born out of war in continental Europe, and the role played over | :54:44. | :54:50. | |
many years in terms of advising on fundamental rights and | :54:51. | :54:54. | |
discrimination, access to justice, xenophobia and racism, it is right | :54:55. | :55:00. | |
that we should have an agency promoting those principles, rights | :55:01. | :55:04. | |
and values throughout Europe. It's all the more important now. It is | :55:05. | :55:13. | |
deeply welcome that we have both Serbia and Albania locked into that | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
process at the next ages. Serbia, in the not too distant past, backed by | :55:19. | :55:25. | |
war, and the country of Albania, that worse for many years under a | :55:26. | :55:31. | |
totalitarian regime. Both candidates for the future of the EU, for the | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
European Union to decide, both will contribute and participate to the F | :55:39. | :55:43. | |
RA, the proposal in question has been cleared by the European | :55:44. | :55:47. | |
Scrutiny Committee and the Lords Europe select committee, we | :55:48. | :55:50. | |
therefore strongly select what is in the bill today. If I may move onto | :55:51. | :55:55. | |
the EU Canada competition agreement, the honourable lady for Chelmsford | :55:56. | :56:02. | |
was right, it's important if one has global free trade that we have | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
effective mechanisms to combat anti-competitive behaviour. That has | :56:07. | :56:10. | |
to be in the best interests of consumers, companies, and crucially | :56:11. | :56:14. | |
also in needs to be effectively endorsed. I can make one other point | :56:15. | :56:21. | |
in relation specifically to Canada. The honourable member for Brigg and | :56:22. | :56:24. | |
Goole was right when he referred to the historical relationship we have | :56:25. | :56:29. | |
with Canada and looking to the future, in his words, the economic | :56:30. | :56:33. | |
good sense to develop that good relationship with Canada. As far as | :56:34. | :56:40. | |
the proposal is concerned, we have in place existing relations, what is | :56:41. | :56:45. | |
being proposed to extend the plans in evidence and information on both | :56:46. | :56:51. | |
sides, through the course of investigations, to make the obvious | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
point that it is the absence of such a power which can be imperative... | :56:55. | :57:02. | |
An impediment to effective enforcement and if what is being | :57:03. | :57:06. | |
proposed is right and similar arrangements are in place as the | :57:07. | :57:09. | |
Minister referred to earlier with other countries out the EU, such as | :57:10. | :57:17. | |
Switzerland. We support what is contained in the bill. If I may say | :57:18. | :57:23. | |
this in conclusion, questions over and above what the honourable member | :57:24. | :57:31. | |
for Sefton Central opposed earlier on, one is what would be the | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
transitional arrangements, because crucially, as we stand now, | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
companies operating in the EU are still subject to the same rules on | :57:41. | :57:48. | |
mergers. In future, the EU will share information about UK companies | :57:49. | :57:54. | |
with Canada, but will not share the information it receives from Canada | :57:55. | :58:00. | |
about the UK with the UK. It poses a big question about what happens | :58:01. | :58:03. | |
post-Brexit, in terms of transitional arrangements and how it | :58:04. | :58:10. | |
works in future. The other question is, in relation to the agency for | :58:11. | :58:14. | |
fundamental rights, I would ask the Minister to clarify what will be the | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
ongoing relationship with the agency? Fall of the reasons I've | :58:20. | :58:24. | |
spelt out, it is critical that we are part of a pan-European mechanism | :58:25. | :58:31. | |
which is about human rights and combating racism and xenophobia, | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
never more important in the current climate than it has been in the | :58:36. | :58:45. | |
past. Minister for the house, briefly? Mr Speaker, I'm grateful to | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
have the opportunity with the Leader of the House to respond to the | :58:50. | :58:57. | |
debate. The bill will approve four draft European Council decisions, | :58:58. | :58:59. | |
first the participation of the Republic of Albania and Serbia in | :59:00. | :59:05. | |
the fundamental rights agency, and the Republic of Albania and Serbia | :59:06. | :59:10. | |
both want to become members of the EU. This measure does not extend the | :59:11. | :59:16. | |
competence of the fundamental rights agency, and Albania and Serbia | :59:17. | :59:19. | |
should be supported to increase their human rights awareness and | :59:20. | :59:25. | |
promotion of fundamental rights in their countries. I was pleased at | :59:26. | :59:30. | |
the support given by the house to that position. If I may deal with a | :59:31. | :59:37. | |
few questions, raised by honourable member is on those two decisions, | :59:38. | :59:44. | |
firstly, honourable member is for South Suffolk and my honourable | :59:45. | :59:48. | |
friend for Stone, for whom I must express appreciation of his work by | :59:49. | :59:52. | |
chairing the scrutiny committee, on the issue of the impact on Serbia's | :59:53. | :59:57. | |
war crimes record, the decisions will allow Serbia to have access to | :59:58. | :00:02. | |
the expertise of the agency, and allow data on human rights in Serbia | :00:03. | :00:06. | |
to be gathered and shared, providing steps to improve Serbia's human | :00:07. | :00:13. | |
rights protections, and the UK continues to urge Serbia to meet | :00:14. | :00:21. | |
obligations, to cooperate fully with the tribunal. The honourable member | :00:22. | :00:30. | |
for Sefton Central asked about the UK remaining part of the FRA post | :00:31. | :00:36. | |
Brexit and the government is looking at the UK's relationship with all EU | :00:37. | :00:41. | |
bodies including the fundamental rights agency as part of the exit | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
negotiations. My honourable friend, the member for Cheltenham, made the | :00:47. | :00:51. | |
point that FRA was completely distinct from the European | :00:52. | :00:56. | |
Convention of human rights and our membership of that convention | :00:57. | :01:01. | |
continues post-Brexit. My honourable friend for Henley spoke with | :01:02. | :01:04. | |
considerable authority on the work of the Council of Europe, on which | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
he is a member. And the overlap between that body and the FRA. I | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
share his hopes and belief that the valuable work of the Council of | :01:15. | :01:17. | |
Europe will continue long after Brexit. Turning now to the | :01:18. | :01:27. | |
cooperation agreement between the EU and Canada on the competition | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
enforcement, the UK has a large number of companies well placed to | :01:33. | :01:36. | |
compete internationally in a system of genuine, free and open | :01:37. | :01:39. | |
competition. The agreement will help ensure this by facilitating | :01:40. | :01:46. | |
enforcement between international cartels. There are a number of | :01:47. | :01:51. | |
questions in this area. First of all, the honourable member for | :01:52. | :01:55. | |
Birmingham, Erdington and the honourable member for Inverness | :01:56. | :02:00. | |
asked about UK companies continuing to be subject to the EU, it has | :02:01. | :02:10. | |
jurisdiction over the European single market and that will continue | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
after we leave the EU and UK companies will have to comply with | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
EU competition law, when they operate within the EU single market. | :02:19. | :02:27. | |
Just as US, or Canadian companies, do. The honourable member for Henley | :02:28. | :02:33. | |
asked on the difference, sorry, I've already covered that point, the key | :02:34. | :02:38. | |
point about the Council of Europe is about standard-setting and | :02:39. | :02:47. | |
overseeing these matters. We welcome greater cooperation on international | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
competition enforcement, and the honourable member for Sefton Central | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
asked after EU except, will we have to continue to share information | :03:00. | :03:06. | |
received from Canada within the UK, between the EU and UK. The UK | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
Government will be free to enter into its own arrangements, to share | :03:12. | :03:15. | |
information with Canada directly. Any agreement will need to be | :03:16. | :03:18. | |
negotiated between the UK and Canada for the future. The honourable | :03:19. | :03:25. | |
gentleman also asked about international agreements after the | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
UK leaves the EU. And whether this agreement provides a model. The UK | :03:30. | :03:36. | |
well, as I said, be free to enter international agreements on | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
competition and we believe this is a good model. So, all in all, Mr | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
Speaker, we've had a good debate, on the cooperation of international | :03:47. | :03:49. | |
competition enforcement which will ensure that there is a level playing | :03:50. | :03:53. | |
field for British business to continue to compete upon, and I | :03:54. | :03:58. | |
think I've answered most of the points raised by honourable member | :03:59. | :04:02. | |
's during this debate, and I commend the bill to the house. The question | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
is that the bill is read a second time. I think the ice have it. | :04:08. | :04:17. | |
Permission to moved formally? As many of the opinion saying aye? The | :04:18. | :04:26. | |
ayes have it. The business of the house select committee 's motion, | :04:27. | :04:36. | |
and we... Minister to move. On the order paper. As many are off the | :04:37. | :04:44. | |
opinion same aye? I think the ayes habit. -- the ayes habit. We come to | :04:45. | :04:55. | |
these notions that I must advise will be debated together. It is | :04:56. | :05:03. | |
helpful to know that if the motion on allocation of chairs is agreed | :05:04. | :05:08. | |
to, the ballot for the election of select committee chairs, including | :05:09. | :05:13. | |
the chair of the backbench business committee, will be held on Wednesday | :05:14. | :05:19. | |
the 12th of July, from 10am to 4pm, it in committee room eight. I hope | :05:20. | :05:25. | |
this meets with the approval of colleagues, it seems to be important | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
that we get on with the business of electing chairs of select committees | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
and as soon as possible with the election of parties by members of | :05:34. | :05:37. | |
these committees, in the interest of Parliament and the interest of good | :05:38. | :05:41. | |
government, that these mechanisms are established without further | :05:42. | :05:46. | |
delay. Nominations will open as soon as the motion is agreed, and may be | :05:47. | :05:52. | |
submitted in the table office of the procedural hub in Portcullis House. | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
Nominations will close at 3pm on Friday the 7th of July. To be met | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
with more details about the elections, they will be made | :06:01. | :06:05. | |
available to members and published on the intranet. Just before I | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
called the deputy leader of the house, literally itching to favour | :06:09. | :06:13. | |
the house with his eloquences, colleagues can note I must add one | :06:14. | :06:19. | |
other point. Specifically, I must tell the house I've had a request, | :06:20. | :06:23. | |
perfectly properly had a request, from the honourable gentleman, the | :06:24. | :06:31. | |
member for Harwich and North Essex, for clarification of the application | :06:32. | :06:35. | |
of standing order 122 letter A, for his position of the public | :06:36. | :06:43. | |
administration committee in the 2010-2015 Parliament and of the | :06:44. | :06:48. | |
Constitutional affairs committee since 2015. Having taken | :06:49. | :06:52. | |
comprehensive advice from the clerks, and reflected on the matter | :06:53. | :06:55. | |
myself, I've decided the eight-year term limit does apply to the | :06:56. | :07:02. | |
honourable member, on the basis that the committee which he chaired | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
between 2015 and 2017 was in effect. The same committee as in 2010 to | :07:09. | :07:14. | |
2015 albeit with an extended remit. That is in common with several other | :07:15. | :07:21. | |
chairs, if re-elected next week, the term of office would expire eight | :07:22. | :07:26. | |
years after his election in 2010 on the 10th of June 20 18. Others are | :07:27. | :07:31. | |
free to put their names forward in the ballot and if elected, they can | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
have existing terms of the order amended or repealed, is the matter | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
within the select committee on procedure. My responsibility is not | :07:42. | :07:45. | |
to speculate as to what the standing order may be in the future, but what | :07:46. | :07:52. | |
a proper interpretation of it now means. That is what I was asked to | :07:53. | :07:57. | |
do and that is what I have done. I hope that is clear to colleagues. I | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
called the deputy Leader of the House, Mr Michael Ellis, to move the | :08:03. | :08:03. | |
first motion. I beg to move the motions on the | :08:04. | :08:12. | |
order paper standing in the name of the leader of the House and the | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
Prime Minister and the leaders of the three opposition parties. Motion | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
number four will have the effect of making the women and equality is | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
committee a permanent select committee of this House. Motion | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
number five serves to exiting the European Union in this Parliament as | :08:32. | :08:35. | |
exactly as the last Parliament. Motion number six allocates the | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
chairs of select committees as within the parties and buy you Mr | :08:41. | :08:46. | |
Speaker, to reflect the party balance in this House. I beg to | :08:47. | :08:54. | |
move. The question is the motion on the women inequalities committee as | :08:55. | :09:03. | |
on the order paper. Kat Smith? No. Formally. Mrs Maria Miller. I wanted | :09:04. | :09:11. | |
to make a submission in support of this motion and welcome the fact the | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
government has decided to make track permanent. It was a recommendation | :09:18. | :09:21. | |
made by the committee before the general election and something that | :09:22. | :09:27. | |
my right honourable friend the member for Aylesbury undertook to | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
put on a permanent footing and I really welcome this measure. I think | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
the committee has proven its worth. The scope of the work that is being | :09:36. | :09:40. | |
undertaken, everything from looking at transgender rights for the first | :09:41. | :09:44. | |
time on the floor of the House of Commons, through to what we did on | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
Brexit on equalities issues. I am glad to see the women and equalities | :09:51. | :09:55. | |
select committee retains his name as set out. It does look at those | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
issues which are the responsibilities of ministers, | :10:02. | :10:04. | |
including women's issues and equality issues as well. Can I come | :10:05. | :10:11. | |
in drawing my comments to a close, raised two particular points, which | :10:12. | :10:15. | |
may be issues other past select committee chairs have equal | :10:16. | :10:22. | |
questions about? First, I would really like to know from my | :10:23. | :10:26. | |
honourable friend sitting on the front bench, the financial support | :10:27. | :10:29. | |
for select committees are going to be sufficient for the scrutiny that | :10:30. | :10:34. | |
is required of government policy at such an important time in our | :10:35. | :10:38. | |
parliament's history? We need to make sure select committees, | :10:39. | :10:43. | |
including the women and equalities select committee have the financial | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
resources and the manpower resources they require. Secondly, that the | :10:48. | :10:54. | |
proceedings of committees are treated with respect? Both in terms | :10:55. | :10:59. | |
of the need for committees to be able to sit in perhaps protected | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
time, when the House is sitting, so they are not unnecessarily curtailed | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
or interrupted, particularly when they are gathering evidence. I think | :11:12. | :11:14. | |
also in the role of committees, such as the women and equalities select | :11:15. | :11:20. | |
committee, in taking the work of this Parliament around the world. To | :11:21. | :11:26. | |
be able to do that with the help and support of the government whips and | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
also the opposition whips as well. I will draw my remarks to a close | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
then, Mr Speaker but reiterate my thanks to this government who have | :11:38. | :11:39. | |
done more than any other to support the establishment of a scrutiny | :11:40. | :11:44. | |
committee for women and equalities and I think for that, they should be | :11:45. | :11:54. | |
applauded. Harriet Harman. I beg your pardon. We will hear from Mr | :11:55. | :12:04. | |
Wishart first. I don't want to detain the right honourable lady for | :12:05. | :12:09. | |
very long. Just a couple of remarks about the orders on the paper. I | :12:10. | :12:14. | |
would like to support motions number four and five the women and | :12:15. | :12:19. | |
equalities and the European Union committees. They are a welcome | :12:20. | :12:22. | |
addition to the select committees we have. Also your remarks, we should | :12:23. | :12:29. | |
make sure the election of chairs is as speedily as possible on the | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
membership of committees, it is important we get these committees up | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
and running soap government departments are properly scrutinised | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
for the work they undertake. I know that the setup of the select | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
committees will be five Conservative members, five Labour members and one | :12:47. | :12:49. | |
Scottish National Party member as the ordinary membership of select | :12:50. | :12:54. | |
committees. It is something we do support. I know there will probably | :12:55. | :13:02. | |
be a more detailed conversation, to put it as elegantly as I can about | :13:03. | :13:06. | |
the life span of the House committees. Nine Conservative | :13:07. | :13:16. | |
members, seven Labour committee members and two SNP membership, for | :13:17. | :13:25. | |
the standing membership, I know this is something that perhaps as a | :13:26. | :13:28. | |
little bit of concern for the government in order to get things | :13:29. | :13:33. | |
through but I hope any proposal on suggestion is put to the floor of | :13:34. | :13:36. | |
the House so it will be properly debated and would be stitched up | :13:37. | :13:41. | |
behind closed doors because it is important the standing committees of | :13:42. | :13:44. | |
the House is on the floor of the House and all members of Parliament | :13:45. | :13:48. | |
have an opportunity to contribute to that. You are right, there was a | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
conversation about the tenure of the chairs of select committees, where | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
there was concern raised about the eight-year rule of the two | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
parliaments which impacted on two or three select committee chairs. My | :14:03. | :14:06. | |
understanding is this was passed to the procedure committee to do a | :14:07. | :14:12. | |
brief report about these issues. I hope they come forward with that at | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
an early opportunity. With those remarks, can I say I very much | :14:19. | :14:21. | |
support what is in these motions and I think we should get the select | :14:22. | :14:25. | |
committees up and running as quickly as possible and it is down to the | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
good business of scrutinising this government and government | :14:31. | :14:36. | |
departments. Harriet Harman. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the | :14:37. | :14:40. | |
deputy leader for bringing this motion to the House and I strongly | :14:41. | :14:43. | |
supported and in particular I welcome putting the women and | :14:44. | :14:47. | |
equality select committee on a permanent footing. I was leader of | :14:48. | :14:51. | |
the House back in the day and I should have done this, but I find | :14:52. | :14:57. | |
myself congratulating, I am baffled, but it congratulating him for | :14:58. | :14:59. | |
bringing this forward and all credit to the government for doing that. It | :15:00. | :15:05. | |
was first established in 2015, the women and equalities select | :15:06. | :15:08. | |
committee but with women from all sides of the House and indeed three | :15:09. | :15:12. | |
men on the committee, it has covered a wide area of work from Brexit | :15:13. | :15:17. | |
negotiations to women being forced to wear high heels. I think it is | :15:18. | :15:23. | |
more than showed, justifies being put on a permanent footing alongside | :15:24. | :15:27. | |
the other select committees, because of the strong committee leadership | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
been given to the select committee by the honourable member for | :15:32. | :15:36. | |
Basingstoke in just the two short years she has been chairing it. I am | :15:37. | :15:42. | |
sure nobody will be saying, as some people will be saying outside, it's | :15:43. | :15:47. | |
all not necessary, we are all not equal now while I wish I were the | :15:48. | :15:52. | |
case, we are all equal now. I wish that were the case, it is not true. | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
We have made a rapid and immense progress, but there is still much | :15:58. | :16:03. | |
further to go. Despite having a woman Prime Minister, still most | :16:04. | :16:07. | |
decisions, whether it is commercial decisions, decisions in the private | :16:08. | :16:10. | |
sector or the public sector, are made by men. You only have to look | :16:11. | :16:16. | |
at the Brexit negotiating team. God help us. Eight of them, seven men | :16:17. | :16:21. | |
and one woman. Why couldn't they have selected that team on merit? | :16:22. | :16:29. | |
Select committees are members working together across the House. | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
Not because we are all the same, because we all do have profound | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
differences in the different parties, but in recognition of where | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
we do agree, it makes sense to work together and it makes no sense not | :16:44. | :16:49. | |
to. All sides of the House have expressed commitment on childcare | :16:50. | :16:51. | |
and I know a number of select committees will be concerned about | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
this. But let's see how it is actually working out in practice. | :16:57. | :17:01. | |
This is a particular issue for women because of the remaining, persistent | :17:02. | :17:04. | |
unequal division of labour in the home. There is a shared commitment | :17:05. | :17:09. | |
across the House in tackling domestic violence, and rightly so. | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
The daily toll of black guys, punctured lungs, broken ribs, the | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
weekly toll of murdered women shames our society. But we have to be | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
certain that we don't see things set back with cuts to the police, cuts | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
to the courts, cuts to councils and the prosecution service, potentially | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
making women less safe. I think we have got a shared commitment across | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
the House for women's income inequality. In 2005, women's income | :17:41. | :17:48. | |
on average per year, was 55% of men's. By 2010, it had risen to 70%. | :17:49. | :18:04. | |
But I suspect it has now stalled. What I would like to see is agenda | :18:05. | :18:07. | |
impact assessment brought forward to the House with the red book at the | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
same time as the Chancellor publishes the budget statement. I | :18:11. | :18:12. | |
know we have a shared commitment across the House to tackle rape and | :18:13. | :18:14. | |
sexual offences. Most sexual offences are not reported. We know | :18:15. | :18:18. | |
that fear that she will be blamed prevents many women going to court, | :18:19. | :18:22. | |
let alone giving evidence. So I hope that across the parties, we can | :18:23. | :18:27. | |
change the law to make it clear that what ever your past sexual history, | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
it's not relevant as to whether you consented in this particular case | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
and your past sexual history should never be dragged through the courts. | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
I hope we will reverse the Ched Evans ruling. There are more women | :18:41. | :18:48. | |
in this House and never before. 208. I am especially proud of the 119 | :18:49. | :18:53. | |
Labour women. And I warmly welcome all of them, the newly elected and | :18:54. | :18:59. | |
the re-elected. But in the House as a whole, we are still outnumbered | :19:00. | :19:08. | |
2-1 and also we last less long than our male colleagues. Not because | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
we're not as tough, durable and as excellent as the men, clearly we | :19:14. | :19:18. | |
are, but we are more likely to be in marginal seats. Therefore there is a | :19:19. | :19:23. | |
turnover of women which there isn't in men. Therefore, women in this | :19:24. | :19:29. | |
House, are not only outnumbered numerically, but also are less in | :19:30. | :19:33. | |
seniority. I think the women inequalities committee will show | :19:34. | :19:39. | |
women in this House, working together to highlight persisting | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
inequalities in this country and will insist we make more progress. | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
So I am pleased to support this motion. Andrew Percy. I wasn't | :19:48. | :19:55. | |
intending to speak on this particular motion, but then I heard | :19:56. | :19:59. | |
the speech of the honourable lady and wanted to agree with some of | :20:00. | :20:03. | |
what she had to say and also pick her up on 12 points. Before that I | :20:04. | :20:08. | |
will stop by greeting with the commentary of other members, | :20:09. | :20:13. | |
particularly the member for Perth in that I hope we can approach this new | :20:14. | :20:18. | |
arrangement of a balanced parliament of a more sensible man less partisan | :20:19. | :20:24. | |
way and that will be the responsibility of those members who | :20:25. | :20:30. | |
sit on those committees. It is important we get these committees | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
established and we get the chairs in place and get the members are | :20:34. | :20:40. | |
elected. I know when I served on the Northern Ireland committee, the | :20:41. | :20:43. | |
Health Select Committee and the regulatory reform committee, how | :20:44. | :20:47. | |
difficult it can be. I am not making a pitch to be on any of those, but | :20:48. | :20:54. | |
it is important to reform. I also agreed with a great deal of what the | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
right honourable lady the Camberwell and Peckham said with regard to the | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
women's inequalities committee. I am proud that it has been established | :21:04. | :21:09. | |
under this party and I'm proud that it is the Conservative Government | :21:10. | :21:12. | |
that not only has a female Prime Minister, the second one of course, | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
women don't do quite a good at being elected to be leader of the party | :21:18. | :21:23. | |
opposite. But I'm glad this is on a permanent footing. When we talk | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
about equalities in this House, it is not just about gender. There are | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
many others who come from nontraditional, poorer backgrounds, | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
who perhaps think the houses and always representative of those of us | :21:37. | :21:41. | |
who come from more challenged backgrounds. And replacing a man | :21:42. | :21:47. | |
with a middle class or upper middle-class woman perhaps isn't | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
perhaps doing a great deal for quality. I think we should always be | :21:52. | :22:00. | |
cautious of the fact that people... The right honourable lady doesn't | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
like this point I'm making but it is about backgrounds and where they | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
come from and their work history. If I had stood up and made the comments | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
she made, in a moment I will give way, but if I stood up and made the | :22:17. | :22:20. | |
comments she had made about their team being put together of seven | :22:21. | :22:24. | |
women and one man and maids disparaging comments, as it came | :22:25. | :22:27. | |
across about the Brexit negotiating team, then I suspect she would be up | :22:28. | :22:37. | |
on her feet having a go. There is a major issue of class inequality in | :22:38. | :22:40. | |
this country and that is why I would like to see this government | :22:41. | :22:44. | |
implement clause one of the equality act which requires all government | :22:45. | :22:48. | |
departments and all public organisations to take into account | :22:49. | :22:51. | |
the importance of narrowing the gap between the top and the bottom in | :22:52. | :22:55. | |
all public policy and operational decisions they make. If they care | :22:56. | :23:00. | |
about class and income inequality, then implement clause one of the | :23:01. | :23:01. | |
equality act. That's why when I was a | :23:02. | :23:09. | |
schoolteacher before I got elected to the parliament, it really irked | :23:10. | :23:14. | |
me that the gap between the top 10% best performing schools and worst | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
performing schools actually got wider and that social mobility also | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
decreased so I would agree with her on that. The point I'm simply making | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
is I don't think it helps the case of equality is to stand up and make | :23:30. | :23:36. | |
what I thought were belittling comments because of the base of its | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
gender. I agree more generally with her point with regards to the women | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
and equality committee under the chairmanship of the right honourable | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
lady for Basingstoke but I do hope the committee will also understand | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
there is... This is a huge subject and there are huge inequality that | :23:56. | :24:03. | |
have existed for decades. It is an important piece of work but one | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
where it is better if people in pursuing the agenda of wanting to | :24:09. | :24:11. | |
close the gap don't make inflammatory comments on the route | :24:12. | :24:20. | |
to that. Because, Mr Deputy Speaker, I agree with the Speaker's drive to | :24:21. | :24:25. | |
modernise and rebalance the House, the power it has against the | :24:26. | :24:29. | |
executive, I don't wish to detain us any further from approving the | :24:30. | :24:35. | |
motion which will re-establish the select committees which have such an | :24:36. | :24:39. | |
important part to play in that objective. Just a couple of words on | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
motion four. I commend the Government for bringing it forward. | :24:48. | :24:51. | |
It's right that the commitment the Government gave during the last | :24:52. | :24:54. | |
parliament but the women and equalities select committee is a | :24:55. | :24:59. | |
statutory basis and to do so on this occasion is the right thing to do as | :25:00. | :25:05. | |
well. As a member of the last women and equality select committee within | :25:06. | :25:08. | |
the previous parliament under the brilliant chairmanship of the Member | :25:09. | :25:15. | |
for Basingstoke, I think it was a real constitutional innovation and | :25:16. | :25:17. | |
the significance of that committee was not just a committee that | :25:18. | :25:22. | |
produced reports, it was significant within its presence within our | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
constitutional life as well, a point made many times by people who came | :25:27. | :25:30. | |
to visit from other countries who rightly or wrongly looked to the | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
place for leadership on these issues. I've might say one other | :25:34. | :25:38. | |
thing about the Speaker who was not in his place so I feel able to | :25:39. | :25:43. | |
praise him without blushing too much, but I believe his modernising | :25:44. | :25:56. | |
drive has made available... His work on inclusion in particular has been | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
commendable and also created conditions in which we could even | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
last week discuss how this might be put on a statutory basis. One last | :26:04. | :26:08. | |
word as someone who has served on that committee for the last couple | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
of years. Many people would often ask why a straight white man would | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
volunteer or choose to be on that committee and the answer is simple. | :26:17. | :26:22. | |
For as long as women's equality is an issue for women, it's an issue | :26:23. | :26:25. | |
about society and when we seek to hold back 50% of people in our | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
communities, we hold back 100% of our population. For that reason | :26:33. | :26:37. | |
alone, I think the work done by the last Parliamentary women equalities | :26:38. | :26:41. | |
select committee, particularly on bringing women further into politics | :26:42. | :26:47. | |
into our public life, identified significant issues around bullying | :26:48. | :26:50. | |
and intimidation, the sport needs to be put in place even at lower | :26:51. | :26:57. | |
levels. And we had four party leaders or representatives of their | :26:58. | :27:02. | |
party coming to sit before us, all men, underlines the fact there is | :27:03. | :27:07. | |
much further to go. The other area where we struggled was where we | :27:08. | :27:10. | |
looked at flexible working patterns and ways in which we could make the | :27:11. | :27:13. | |
workplace more available to people coming from different backgrounds. I | :27:14. | :27:19. | |
think to be honest we struggled to square the circle on how you do that | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
in areas where it is less easy to do flexible working such as areas of | :27:25. | :27:27. | |
low pay and I know that will be a focus for the committee going | :27:28. | :27:32. | |
forward. I commend this motion, I think it's an excellent innovation | :27:33. | :27:35. | |
and we should be rightly proud in this parliament that we are bringing | :27:36. | :27:42. | |
it forward. Again, I support the motion, I wanted to talk briefly | :27:43. | :27:46. | |
about timetabling as well. It's got the House is moving to collect the | :27:47. | :27:50. | |
chairs of the select committee next week. It doesn't give the House much | :27:51. | :27:54. | |
time to let members of the committees before the summer recess | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
and I think there should be a concern that if members are selected | :27:58. | :28:04. | |
in September, many won't do their work formally until October which | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
will be a gap of five months. In the normal course of Parliament in a | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
Fixed-term Parliaments Act the committees can prepare their | :28:13. | :28:15. | |
workload and work towards the end of the session but because of the | :28:16. | :28:19. | |
nature of the last general election, many committees have had to abruptly | :28:20. | :28:24. | |
stopped their work. If they are looking to pick up some of that work | :28:25. | :28:28. | |
there will be a gap and a change in membership. Committees don't just | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
scrutinise decisions of this House but also outside bodies too. I raise | :28:34. | :28:39. | |
the point now so there can be consideration in the future if there | :28:40. | :28:51. | |
is a way in which new committees can be created without disbanding, and | :28:52. | :28:58. | |
we may have an absence of five months without any committee | :28:59. | :29:06. | |
sitting. To briefly respond to some of the points made, firstly my right | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
honourable friend from Basingstoke, it is I agree is important that | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
financial support is sufficient for proper scrutiny and also Her Majesty | :29:15. | :29:18. | |
's government I can assure her and the House will always respect the | :29:19. | :29:21. | |
work of the committees of this House. They have undoubtedly got | :29:22. | :29:33. | |
stronger. The right honourable lady from Camberwell and Peckham, I would | :29:34. | :29:35. | |
just like to take this opportunity to thank her for her comments about | :29:36. | :29:41. | |
the women's inequality committee being made permanent and commend her | :29:42. | :29:47. | |
for her work over the years. Mr Speaker, I to move. | :29:48. | :30:02. | |
The ayes have it. The next question is on the motion of standing orders, | :30:03. | :30:13. | |
the question is on the motion of the standing orders of the committee on | :30:14. | :30:18. | |
existing European Union, that's on the order paper, is that opinion say | :30:19. | :30:26. | |
aye... On the contrary know. The ayes have it. The question is the | :30:27. | :30:33. | |
motion on select committees allocation of chairs as on the order | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
paper, as many of that opinion say aye... The contrary no. The ayes | :30:40. | :30:53. | |
have it. We now come to the general debate | :30:54. | :30:57. | |
improvements to southern railway. I improvements to | :30:58. | :30:58. | |
now call the secretary of State to now call the secretary of State to | :30:59. | :31:00. | |
move the motion. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. You will recall last | :31:01. | :31:05. | |
summer the southern rail network was already bedevilled by a dispute | :31:06. | :31:10. | |
causing disruption for thousands of people and damaged the economy | :31:11. | :31:13. | |
across the region but it wasn't the only problem is that southern rail | :31:14. | :31:17. | |
faced. Too many infrastructure failures, a lack of joined up | :31:18. | :31:22. | |
management between track and training, as well as the problems | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
most of our commuter rail networks face after attracting more and more | :31:27. | :31:30. | |
passengers each year, far more than it used in the days of British rail. | :31:31. | :31:36. | |
This is a railway line faced and faces a massive capacity challenge, | :31:37. | :31:39. | |
so that was the background to my decision to ask an experienced | :31:40. | :31:45. | |
leader, Chris give, to produce advice for my department on what to | :31:46. | :31:48. | |
do to get things back to normal for passengers. What was behind the poor | :31:49. | :31:52. | |
performance on the route and how we could solve it. I asked Chris Gibb | :31:53. | :32:01. | |
for his advice because he has more than 40 years' worth of experience | :32:02. | :32:08. | |
in the industry. I would like to recognise and thank him for his | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
contribution. His recommendations have already been assessed and 34 of | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
his 38 assessments are already being worked on by my department, the rail | :32:18. | :32:23. | |
industry and GDR who operate Southern, but his findings made | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
clear the industrial action is the main cause of destruction for | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
southern passengers or was last year when things were at their worst. As | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
Southern passengers know how much the rail service has improved, | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
performance has been consistently better since the New Year, the PPN | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
public performance measure is up more than 20 percentage points. | :32:50. | :32:54. | |
That's much better, it's not best, there is a long way still to go but | :32:55. | :32:57. | |
it's clearly much better than it was. So things are getting better | :32:58. | :33:01. | |
for passengers, the railway has been working much better, that's why it | :33:02. | :33:07. | |
is tragic that the union's leaderships now want to carry on a | :33:08. | :33:11. | |
battle which is meaningless and unnecessary. The performance of this | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
railway is only going to carry on improving if industrial action by | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
those unions stops. They seem unwilling to come to the party. | :33:19. | :33:24. | |
Aslef started their overtime ban again last week resulting in | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
Southern passengers having 25% of trains cancelled each day. Just when | :33:29. | :33:31. | |
passengers fought the service was passengers fought the service was | :33:32. | :33:46. | |
are at the mercy of unions. I have called this | :33:47. | :33:46. | |
asked unions many times to call off asked unions | :33:47. | :33:47. | |
the disruption to people's daily lives through this ongoing action. | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
My right honourable friend is well aware of the inconvenience suffered | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
to many on the line because of the strike and the previous strikes. Is | :34:00. | :34:10. | |
he aware of the unions working together being encouraged by the | :34:11. | :34:13. | |
Labour Party or does he see this as a straight interunion rivalry? Let | :34:14. | :34:16. | |
me stress again, I know just how difficult this has been for his | :34:17. | :34:20. | |
constituents and others. Their lives have been disrupted, turned upside | :34:21. | :34:24. | |
down, and a whole variety of different ways and it certainly the | :34:25. | :34:27. | |
case in the other stages the unions looks like they were working | :34:28. | :34:33. | |
together on this. I don't think relations now between the unions are | :34:34. | :34:36. | |
as warm as they once were but I'm clear there is a direct link between | :34:37. | :34:40. | |
the actions of the Labour Party leadership in trying to cause | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
disruption for the Government this summer and the decisions to | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
victories industrial action. It is unacceptable that senior figures in | :34:49. | :35:00. | |
the Labour Party are encouraging trade unions to take action this | :35:01. | :35:04. | |
summer. Is the Secretary of State aware that the president of the RMT | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
has described his objective as speaking to bring down the | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
Government? And what the Secretary of State join me in saying that is | :35:13. | :35:15. | |
an appalling motive for ruining the lives of our constituents? My | :35:16. | :35:22. | |
honourable friend is absolutely right, this is a shocking state of | :35:23. | :35:26. | |
affairs and the reality is there are some thoroughly good people working | :35:27. | :35:29. | |
on our Railways, people who don't agree with the current action, | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
people who want to do the right job for the passenger and their | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
leadership now is leading them up a path they don't want and is in no | :35:37. | :35:41. | |
ones interest. Following on from that point, I'm not sure whether my | :35:42. | :35:45. | |
right honourable friend has heard the statement from Mr Hedley who was | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
on activist within RMT, who was on Russian TV today and said within our | :35:50. | :35:55. | |
rule book and antagonistic relationship, we want to overthrow | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
capitalism and create a socialist form of society... How does that | :36:00. | :36:04. | |
help our passengers? The trouble is this is all about politics, my | :36:05. | :36:09. | |
honourable friend is right, this is not about the interests of | :36:10. | :36:12. | |
passengers getting on with their everyday lives and it's a tragedy. | :36:13. | :36:18. | |
Would he acknowledge Page 93 of the Gibb report has a graph showing that | :36:19. | :36:24. | |
long before the days of the industrial action Southern was the | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
worst performing company? And secondly would he explain why he | :36:29. | :36:33. | |
himself has not got round the table with the unions and GDR? The | :36:34. | :36:36. | |
Government cannot pretend it has nothing to do with them given that | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
Gibb said the Secretary of State is already determining the direction of | :36:43. | :36:51. | |
this dispute. Slightly surprised the honourable lady hasn't declared an | :36:52. | :37:02. | |
interest because she has received motions from the RMT union. Can you | :37:03. | :37:06. | |
please advise the House whether honourable member has an interest | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
declared, for example I understand the honourable member for Brighton | :37:12. | :37:14. | |
Pavilion is sponsored by the RMT union, that she should do so if | :37:15. | :37:20. | |
speaking on this matter. I think it is up to each individual member to | :37:21. | :37:23. | |
note whether they do have an interest or not, and my suggestion | :37:24. | :37:28. | |
is I have no knowledge and I have to be quite honest that any member is | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
sponsored by a trade union under the present legislation. | :37:32. | :37:36. | |
What we have work to do since last year is sort out some of the | :37:37. | :37:42. | |
underlying problems with the management of this railway line, | :37:43. | :37:45. | |
joining of the operation of the track and train, spending more money | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
on infrastructure and performance has been rising steadily since the | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
start of the year. Their dandified range of problems and as I have said | :37:56. | :38:00. | |
to the House, we are working to solve those problems. But it has | :38:01. | :38:05. | |
been made clear, the principal cause of the disruption experienced by | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
constituents and others was the industrial action by the unions. He | :38:10. | :38:14. | |
said those passengers would have experienced a relatively normal | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
service but for that action. If the principal reason for these delays is | :38:20. | :38:25. | |
industrial action, does that not mean that ?300 million the | :38:26. | :38:28. | |
government pledged in January is a waste of money? No, it doesn't. | :38:29. | :38:37. | |
Because one of the things I found most disappointing is the way in | :38:38. | :38:41. | |
which the unions and others, when we have provided additional money for | :38:42. | :38:46. | |
the infrastructure, owned and operated by Network Rail, an | :38:47. | :38:50. | |
additional ?20 million last year and 300 million being spent now to stop | :38:51. | :38:54. | |
things like regular signal failures, or they can do is misrepresent the | :38:55. | :38:57. | |
situation and claim we are giving that money to the train operator. | :38:58. | :39:02. | |
They know it is not true and it is not the case. One part of solving | :39:03. | :39:07. | |
the problem on this railway and make sure it is the good performing | :39:08. | :39:10. | |
railway it hasn't necessarily been, is to spend money on the | :39:11. | :39:20. | |
infrastructure... I will give way. Is surely not part of the problem | :39:21. | :39:24. | |
there are not enough drivers on the network so when drivers don't take | :39:25. | :39:30. | |
voluntary overtime, over which is voluntary, by its very nature, the | :39:31. | :39:34. | |
train operator is unable to operate its trains. It is not the fact that | :39:35. | :39:39. | |
drivers are not doing their volunteering job of taking over | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
time, it is the fact the operator has not trained a peanut drivers and | :39:44. | :39:50. | |
I do declare an interest, I received donations from RMT, because I know | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
to work with unions, we can get a better deal on our railways. The | :39:58. | :40:03. | |
honourable gentleman is quite right, which is why at the start of this | :40:04. | :40:06. | |
year we launched an enormous recruitment programme and there are | :40:07. | :40:11. | |
350 trainees coming to the system at the moment. As he will know, the | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
system of training drivers in this country is tied up in red tape, | :40:16. | :40:19. | |
union agreements and passed working practices so we cannot train drivers | :40:20. | :40:25. | |
as quickly as I would like. I think it is a nonsense that we should | :40:26. | :40:29. | |
depend on overtime to run any part of our rail system on normal working | :40:30. | :40:37. | |
days. We intend, as part of our strategy to end that situation. It | :40:38. | :40:40. | |
will be a bloke to those who depend on overtime as part of their regular | :40:41. | :40:47. | |
income. And the drivers on Southern are not keen to see their overtime | :40:48. | :40:59. | |
disappear. I should say that I have taken a train by Southern for an | :41:00. | :41:05. | |
operation in East Grinstead this morning. I am looking for serious | :41:06. | :41:12. | |
investment in the Redhill area and the track layout in Croydon and | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
Reigate it needs a 12 car platforms so it can get proper services into | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
London. Would he provide the resources for Network Rail simply to | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
do the design, potential design of a proper station at Reigate because it | :41:29. | :41:32. | |
is my constituents who are hit by the fair tariff and the overcrowding | :41:33. | :41:37. | |
on a service with all the faults that have been identified in the | :41:38. | :41:45. | |
report. I can give my honourable friend and assurance I am working | :41:46. | :41:49. | |
with what we will need to do to go forward for the Brighton mainline to | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
make sure it is capable of meeting the challenges of the future. It | :41:53. | :41:56. | |
hasn't had investment over the years. We are spending far more | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
money on the rail network than has been spent in this country for | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
decades. The Brighton mainline is one line that has been neglected, it | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
is a reason why its performance is so poor and it is something we have | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
to change. I thank the Minister for giving way. I was are interested the | :42:16. | :42:21. | |
minister criticised there weren't enough drivers but also how more | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
drivers have been recruited. Chris Gibb, in his report, identified, I | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
understand at least one losing bidder including more drivers and it | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
may have been the case the bidder with the fewest drivers won. So it | :42:37. | :42:41. | |
is complete for the Minister to indicate he didn't realise they won | :42:42. | :42:45. | |
the contract actually on fewer drivers. Surely he must recognise | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
that? I was the Secretary of State at that time. What I am trying to do | :42:51. | :42:54. | |
is sort out the problems I have got now. I am clear we don't have enough | :42:55. | :42:59. | |
drivers on this railway. No dispute, that is why we have launched a big | :43:00. | :43:04. | |
recruitment drive. I wish those drivers who are coming on stream | :43:05. | :43:07. | |
now. But those with links to the unions know it takes about 15 months | :43:08. | :43:14. | |
to train driver. I don't think it is sensible, it shouldn't take that | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
long. But we are bringing onstream new drivers as rapidly as we can | :43:18. | :43:20. | |
within the confines of union agreements. Recommendations, we are | :43:21. | :43:27. | |
doing a whole variety of different things to ensure we deal with the | :43:28. | :43:30. | |
problems on this railway. But I don't think we should forget the | :43:31. | :43:35. | |
core issue that Chris Gibbs's main finding and there are lots of things | :43:36. | :43:41. | |
to learn that everybody, but what he says is the principal cause of the | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
disruption last year which caused misery to so many people was the | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
action of the trade unions. It is the union executives though called | :43:49. | :43:53. | |
strike action and disputes. They can call it. They are disputes between | :43:54. | :44:01. | |
unions... I am grateful. Firstly it is worth reiterating, the one thing | :44:02. | :44:07. | |
Chris Gibb was excluded from investigating in his report was | :44:08. | :44:10. | |
industrial relations. He was not allowed to go into it. He did say | :44:11. | :44:16. | |
that has been the single greatest cause of short-term inconvenience. | :44:17. | :44:19. | |
He also said under the section of the report which is titled, How Did | :44:20. | :44:27. | |
It Get To This Point? He said, I do not believe any single party has | :44:28. | :44:32. | |
been the cause. Can I beg, on behalf of passengers, we get beyond the | :44:33. | :44:37. | |
finger-pointing of this debate. And we all act with a degree of | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
humility. Every single party bears responsibility for where we are | :44:43. | :44:46. | |
today, from the unions to the franchises and government. Can he | :44:47. | :44:49. | |
accept his own responsibility, accurate humility and say what... We | :44:50. | :44:56. | |
all want to speak and I am not getting out anybody in particular, | :44:57. | :45:00. | |
but if we had short interventions, everybody will get to speak. The | :45:01. | :45:06. | |
Secretary of State. We talk about where we are now. Two weeks ago we | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
had a railway that was performing better, a service that most people | :45:11. | :45:13. | |
using it say was better than last year. We had a joined a management | :45:14. | :45:18. | |
structure between track and trained operator. We had a programme of | :45:19. | :45:22. | |
ongoing spending to try and remove those perennial breakdowns that | :45:23. | :45:27. | |
cause frustration, the signal failure and points failure and the | :45:28. | :45:32. | |
rest. And then lo and behold, unnecessarily we have strike action | :45:33. | :45:35. | |
threatened, work to rule taking place against the things the unions | :45:36. | :45:40. | |
have already been doing for the past six months, to be working well and | :45:41. | :45:44. | |
deliver improvements. We have something that was getting better | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
after a lot of work by a lot of people and it is a tragedy we are | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
taking a step backwards. If he wants this railway line to get better, | :45:53. | :46:00. | |
please talk to his friends in the unions and say, you don't need to do | :46:01. | :46:03. | |
this. It is the wrong thing to do and it must stop. I will give way. | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
Does he not agreed me, what ever the union is concerned about, the only | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
way to resolve their concerns is get back round the table overtime bans | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
on strike action will not resolve it and it makes life worse for | :46:16. | :46:20. | |
passengers. I agree with that. What I find battling over the pay deal is | :46:21. | :46:28. | |
that Aslef are balloting for industrial action on a 24% pay rise | :46:29. | :46:34. | |
including productivity changes that they have accepted on the other part | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
of the company on the Thames Link and great Northern links. Why would | :46:40. | :46:42. | |
they accept the deal in one part of the company and threaten strike | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
action and another part. Most of us look at the situation, railway line | :46:50. | :46:53. | |
getting better, things on the men, ideal most people would say is | :46:54. | :46:57. | |
completely generous, which has been accepted by the union and the other | :46:58. | :47:01. | |
part of the company, why on earth would this be returning to a | :47:02. | :47:07. | |
situation of industrial action. I give away one more time. Thank you. | :47:08. | :47:18. | |
Why is it the Secretary of State can't go out publicly and say to | :47:19. | :47:22. | |
both unions and the train operator, let's meet together? With no | :47:23. | :47:32. | |
preconditions to negotiate this. What is it that the Secretary of | :47:33. | :47:41. | |
State wants to meet the union separately. We had constructive | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
talks earlier this year. I will pay tribute to the leader of Aslef the | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
way they conducted themselves in January and February. It is a matter | :47:50. | :47:54. | |
of disappointment in our they have returned to militancy when I thought | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
there was constructive dialogue taking place. Those talks happen, | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
they were facilitated by the General secretary of the TUC and a senior | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
rail executive. We reached an agreement which did not pass the | :48:08. | :48:11. | |
referendum. There was an offer on the table for the stuff. That offer | :48:12. | :48:16. | |
with a substantial pay upgrade, productivity improvements, that has | :48:17. | :48:19. | |
been acceptable to the unions on Thames Ling and great Northern. It | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
is a disappointment we cannot deal with this issue once and for all. He | :48:25. | :48:30. | |
will be aware this morning, several of us across the House met | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
representatives from the RMT. I have to say, at the end of the meeting, | :48:35. | :48:39. | |
it perplexed us as to why still no deal has been done, given the very | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
small number of trains which have been leaving without that second | :48:44. | :48:51. | |
person on board. The very narrow difference between GT are and the | :48:52. | :48:56. | |
unions on how one preaches that. There did seem to be some union | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
enmity going on as a reason for prolonging this strike. Can we not | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
just get all of them around the table, bang some heads together and | :49:05. | :49:08. | |
get our constituents are train service that stops disrupting their | :49:09. | :49:14. | |
lives? There is no reason why talks cannot start again tomorrow. Come | :49:15. | :49:18. | |
back round the table. They are trying to turn the clock back. There | :49:19. | :49:22. | |
have been sensible arrangements in place for years that does not | :49:23. | :49:27. | |
require a train to be cancelled if the previous member of staff has | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
been delayed. Are we going to modernise are ways or not? Are ways | :49:32. | :49:38. | |
are packed, we need to look for smart use of technology, smart ways | :49:39. | :49:44. | |
of working and we need to invest in infrastructure to make sure it is | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
reliable. Those are the things we want to do, those are the things we | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
plan to do. The union should stop fighting, change and modernisation. | :49:55. | :49:57. | |
Nobody is losing their jobs, nobody is having their pay cut, and I think | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
we will need more customer service staff in the future, rather than | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
fewer. I am not in the business of removing staff that work with | :50:08. | :50:10. | |
customers, but we need the freedom to adapt, develop and equip itself | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
for the challenges of the future. This dispute is all about preventing | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
that from happening. It is about retaining union abilities to hold | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
the railways. It has been a tragedy for the people of the Southern rail | :50:26. | :50:34. | |
way. Just as we thought the services were getting better, it started | :50:35. | :50:39. | |
again. Stop doing this to the unions, call of action and we will | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
talk to you again. The question is as on the order paper. Andy | :50:46. | :50:51. | |
Macdonald. May I make it clear from the outset, I am a proud member of | :50:52. | :50:55. | |
the labour and trade union movement and I am happy to declare the | :50:56. | :50:59. | |
support I have received from all three trade unions in the rail | :51:00. | :51:05. | |
industry. I am grateful for this opportunity to debate things in the | :51:06. | :51:09. | |
Gibbs' Report. It should be noted, this debate should have taken six | :51:10. | :51:13. | |
months ago when the report was finished and presented to the | :51:14. | :51:18. | |
Secretary of State. Unfortunately the Transport Secretary decided to | :51:19. | :51:21. | |
sit on the report for six months and wait until after the general | :51:22. | :51:24. | |
election before publishing it, denying this place and most | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
importantly, denying passengers the opportunity to scrutinise its | :51:31. | :51:32. | |
assessment into the Southern rail fiasco. The secretary of state | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
shouldn't bury reports until after a general election when passengers | :51:39. | :51:41. | |
deserve the opportunity to see the findings immediately. Last week, the | :51:42. | :51:48. | |
Association of British commuters went to the High Court seeking a | :51:49. | :51:55. | |
judicial review of the government's handling of Southern, motivated by | :51:56. | :52:01. | |
the Transport Secretary's refusal to assess the claims of Southern, who | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
are questing they may not be found in breach of their contracts for | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
their abysmal performance, the worst in the country. These claims were | :52:10. | :52:15. | |
made in April 2016, over a year ago. The High Court of Mao ordered the | :52:16. | :52:19. | |
Secretary of State to produce a report into Southern rail within 14 | :52:20. | :52:26. | |
days. Long-suffering passengers shouldn't have to resort to | :52:27. | :52:29. | |
crowdfunding for legal action to seek accountability and the | :52:30. | :52:33. | |
secretary of state should not have to be dragged, kicking and screaming | :52:34. | :52:41. | |
by the High Court to do the job he was appointed to do so. Would he | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
just confirm we won the case? Perhaps he would have to confirm he | :52:49. | :52:53. | |
has been ordered to produce a report within 14 days, which he wouldn't | :52:54. | :52:58. | |
have done otherwise? And crucially, the section of the Gibbs' Report | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
which is most informative, recommendations between the | :53:03. | :53:11. | |
agreement has been redacted. The Secretary of State has prevented us | :53:12. | :53:13. | |
from seeing the part of report which would give us greater details on the | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
botched franchise design of which his department is responsible, the | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
nature of the agreement with GTR which has been cloaked in secrecy | :53:23. | :53:25. | |
and the changes that Chris Gibb has recommended. The Secretary of State | :53:26. | :53:31. | |
has redacted the parts of the report that would present the greatest | :53:32. | :53:33. | |
political difficulties or his government if they were released. | :53:34. | :53:41. | |
He is right when he highlights it isn't just the issues of industrial | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
relations, the Gibb report clearly identifies failures to accurately | :53:48. | :53:53. | |
report numbers of drivers, to train and recruit drivers, anticipate | :53:54. | :53:56. | |
turnover with any accuracy, plan for the impact of infrastructure | :53:57. | :54:00. | |
enhancements, account for changes in Network Rail, account the timetable | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
expansion, get the right trains in the right places and cater for | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
growth and demand and overcrowded stations. But turning to the issue | :54:10. | :54:15. | |
of industrial action, Mr Deputy Speaker, I don't recall the | :54:16. | :54:18. | |
Transport Secretary having done anything other than oppose every | :54:19. | :54:21. | |
single piece of industrial action and it's absolutely wrong for the | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
Secretary of State to attack the men and women who operate our railways | :54:28. | :54:31. | |
whilst washing his hands entirely of the collapse of industrial | :54:32. | :54:40. | |
relations. The buck... Happy too. Aslef drivers have been offered a | :54:41. | :54:47. | |
26% pay increase taking their pay from 51,000 to 63,000 for a four day | :54:48. | :54:51. | |
week. If that isn't a generous offer, I would like to know what is. | :54:52. | :54:59. | |
He has laid bare a failure to understand what this is about, it | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
isn't about money, it's about the proper running of our railways so we | :55:04. | :55:07. | |
have a safe and accessible railway. Its members opposite could get their | :55:08. | :55:13. | |
heads around that, we may find ourselves working towards... No, he | :55:14. | :55:23. | |
has had a go, he can sit down. The buck stops with this Government. I | :55:24. | :55:36. | |
thank the honourable member for giving way. He may be aware that I | :55:37. | :55:41. | |
took a Transport Select Committee to view the video operation and it was | :55:42. | :55:45. | |
entirely clear to us that you could see when a passenger was coming on | :55:46. | :55:48. | |
and off the train but it doesn't matter what we think, it is the | :55:49. | :55:53. | |
independent railway safety regulator who has confirmed it is safe. I am | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
delighted he raised that issue because I will come on to that point | :55:59. | :56:03. | |
in a few minutes. We all know too well the idiosyncratic approach of | :56:04. | :56:08. | |
the Deputy of state to workers and unions, but even so the handling of | :56:09. | :56:13. | |
industrial relations with regards to Southern has been particularly | :56:14. | :56:15. | |
appalling and relations are not helped by the antagonistic behaviour | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
of GTR, the Department for Transport and government ministers. In | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
February 2016, a senior civil servant at the DFD, Peter Wilkinson, | :56:28. | :56:34. | |
told a public meeting in Croydon, "Over the next three years we are | :56:35. | :56:40. | |
going to be having punch-ups and we will see industrial action, I want | :56:41. | :56:43. | |
your support. I'm furious about it and it has got to change. We have | :56:44. | :56:48. | |
got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and | :56:49. | :56:52. | |
they've got credit cards, they cannot afford to spend too long on | :56:53. | :56:57. | |
strike and I will push them into that place. They have to decide if | :56:58. | :57:02. | |
they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry." | :57:03. | :57:08. | |
Does the right honourable member on a strip -- honestly believe this is | :57:09. | :57:17. | |
the right way to go about implementing staffing change? The | :57:18. | :57:21. | |
Transport Secretary has repeatedly attempted to distance himself from | :57:22. | :57:24. | |
the industrial action claiming it was a matter for the company despite | :57:25. | :57:28. | |
the unusually close relationship between him, his officials and GTR. | :57:29. | :57:33. | |
This has never been a credible claim and the Gibb report confirmed the | :57:34. | :57:38. | |
suspicion is of the Transport Secretary was deeply involved in | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
industrial disputes despite his claims otherwise. Gibb said the | :57:44. | :57:49. | |
Secretary of State is already determining the direction of this | :57:50. | :57:54. | |
dispute but in similar disputes on transparent and express and Scots | :57:55. | :57:56. | |
rail, agreements were reached that prevented industrial action. Scots | :57:57. | :58:08. | |
rail, the technology is there but even in exceptional circumstances a | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
driver cannot operate a train despite 30% of the network operating | :58:12. | :58:20. | |
in that manner. It just demonstrates what you can achieve if you sit down | :58:21. | :58:24. | |
and have an intelligent conversation with people. But where there is a | :58:25. | :58:29. | |
willingness to talk on all sides, it is clear that agreements can be | :58:30. | :58:32. | |
reached that benefit passengers. To put it simply, the Secretary of | :58:33. | :58:40. | |
State's militant anti-worker, anti-trade union stance has | :58:41. | :58:45. | |
significantly worsened industrial relations and had a devastating | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
impact on passenger services. And while I'm at it, he has got to come | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
up with evidence for his allegation that leaves the Labour Party | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
conspiring the way he said it did because it is a fantasy and he | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
shouldn't come to the dispatch box and make things up that he knows are | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
not right. If his analysis is correct, can he explain why the | :59:09. | :59:14. | |
Labour Council and the mayors on Merseyside have taken the same | :59:15. | :59:16. | |
approach as the Government on this issue? That's not accurate. I will | :59:17. | :59:23. | |
tell him why, because if it wasn't for the stitch up with Serco | :59:24. | :59:27. | |
underbelly of taking 17 million quid out of the deal and taking five with | :59:28. | :59:33. | |
good use, we wouldn't have the problem. You serve this up to your | :59:34. | :59:39. | |
mates, you do your deals with these people extracting the value out of | :59:40. | :59:45. | |
our railway system. Absolutely not. It's important to point out the Gibb | :59:46. | :59:49. | |
report itself makes no assessment of the merits of driver-only operation. | :59:50. | :59:56. | |
However, despite a lack of assessment, Chris Gibb makes it | :59:57. | :00:04. | |
clear who supports DOO and any industrial action is wrong. This is | :00:05. | :00:11. | |
from the Gibb report... We have undertaken this project for a | :00:12. | :00:16. | |
consultancy company owned and operated by my family and I, and the | :00:17. | :00:25. | |
LG are limited has been contracted to Govia Thameslink railway as | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
facilitated by the DFD. Discussions have been held under the terms of a | :00:30. | :00:41. | |
confidentiality agreement between CLGR Ltd and GTR so Chris Gibb is | :00:42. | :00:46. | |
contracted to go via, the very company he should be reporting on. | :00:47. | :00:52. | |
Surely even this Secretary of State can see this blatant latest | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
conflict-of-interest. Where is the Independence in this report? It is | :01:00. | :01:04. | |
just another stitch up. What is it with the DFD, the senior civil | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
servant who previously told the world he wanted unions out of his | :01:09. | :01:13. | |
industry, in addition has his own consultancy company, FCP to advise | :01:14. | :01:29. | |
Govia I1 2p a year gold plate. This Government would refuse to recognise | :01:30. | :01:34. | |
a conflict of interest if it's got up and bit them on the gluteus | :01:35. | :01:42. | |
maximus. Labour, like the staff who operate rail work, the passenger | :01:43. | :01:46. | |
groups who have been protesting have been motivated to take legal action | :01:47. | :01:50. | |
and disability charities simply do not agree with the assumption that | :01:51. | :01:56. | |
the staff think and descaling our railways is a positive step. -- | :01:57. | :02:03. | |
de-staffing. Despite first being introduced over 30 years ago, DOO is | :02:04. | :02:10. | |
only used on the third of the National railway network. It was | :02:11. | :02:14. | |
originally introduced on three-car trains at a time of declining | :02:15. | :02:18. | |
passenger numbers with passenger numbers having hugely increased in | :02:19. | :02:23. | |
recent years it's now being proposed that DOO will be introduced on | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
trains with as many as 12 cars. And in the last 15 years, passenger | :02:29. | :02:34. | |
numbers on Southern have increased by 64% from 116,000,000 to 190 | :02:35. | :02:42. | |
million a year. This rise in numbers means the platform train interface, | :02:43. | :02:47. | |
there are inevitably increased risks to passenger safety as anyone who | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
travels on Southern services is able to see. Can the honourable gentleman | :02:52. | :02:59. | |
explain why the same union has agreed to 12 car train DOO on Thames | :03:00. | :03:20. | |
link? We are looking at the situation as it is now and quite | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
rightly want to look at it properly. Passengers are more at risk if they | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
no longer have the guarantee of a safety critical member of staff on | :03:30. | :03:34. | |
the train to prevent something going wrong or assist when something does | :03:35. | :03:39. | |
go wrong. The view of Her Majesty 's Chief Inspector of railways, Ian | :03:40. | :03:45. | |
Prosser, has been laid out in the office for rail and road report GTR | :03:46. | :03:50. | |
southern railways driver-only operation, that was published | :03:51. | :03:55. | |
earlier this year. Mr Prosser is clear there are obvious caveats to | :03:56. | :04:00. | |
safe operation of DOO. These are namely legal levels of lighting, a | :04:01. | :04:07. | |
good start, suitable equipment, suitable procedures and competency | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
of the relevant staff. None of which have been adequately satisfied even | :04:12. | :04:23. | |
by his own assessment. If union members are concerned about the | :04:24. | :04:28. | |
points he raise, why will they not get round the table again to resolve | :04:29. | :04:32. | |
this and discuss the situation, call off the overtime ban? Quite simply | :04:33. | :04:38. | |
because they couldn't get in the door because when they were holding | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
talks at the TUC, as was pointed out, it was an attempt to divide and | :04:45. | :04:49. | |
conquer, typical Tory trick to keep the critically important trade union | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
out of the discussion in the first place. Had he had any real intent, | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
he would have got everybody round the table to resolve the dispute. He | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
says from a sedentary position it was the TUC that oversaw, they did | :05:07. | :05:10. | |
their level best to try to bring this to a conclusion but not because | :05:11. | :05:14. | |
of the assistants of the DFT and this minister deliberately excluded | :05:15. | :05:20. | |
the relevant parties. Sadly the inference the Government apparently | :05:21. | :05:23. | |
seeks to draw from the report I was talking about, that there is an | :05:24. | :05:29. | |
effect no cause for concern over safety does nothing to assist the | :05:30. | :05:35. | |
resolution. The rail and safety standards board has been reluctant | :05:36. | :05:40. | |
to describe DOO as definitively safe saying DOO does not create | :05:41. | :05:45. | |
additional undesired events but may increase the likelihood of an event | :05:46. | :05:51. | |
occurring or increase the severity of its consequence. By the way, Mr | :05:52. | :05:56. | |
Deputy Speaker, you can no longer find that on the website, I wonder | :05:57. | :06:02. | |
why. At a time of increased risks in terror attacks and a spike in hate | :06:03. | :06:07. | |
crime it seems foolish to prioritise removing train staff from services. | :06:08. | :06:21. | |
Case in point was the derailment that occurred near Watford Junction | :06:22. | :06:26. | |
on the 16th of September last year, after the train hit a landslip | :06:27. | :06:31. | |
caused by torrential rain regard evacuated the train when the driver | :06:32. | :06:34. | |
was injured in the incident and trapped in the cab and not capable | :06:35. | :06:39. | |
of doing it. If such an accident were to occur on a DOO service, the | :06:40. | :06:44. | |
safety of hundreds of passengers could be compromised. Why is it that | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
it takes a catastrophe to bring this Government to its senses when | :06:49. | :06:51. | |
dealing with the issues of safety rather than just completely wanting | :06:52. | :06:56. | |
to compromise on safety at every turn? Mr Deputy Speaker, can he | :06:57. | :07:01. | |
confirmed that it is the case that today on southern rail there are | :07:02. | :07:06. | |
more on train staff than there were before the dispute started, and is | :07:07. | :07:10. | |
he saying that if a member of staff is delayed the previous arrangement | :07:11. | :07:13. | |
whereby the train can carry on running should stop and that train | :07:14. | :07:15. | |
should automatically be cancelled? We ensure there is a critically | :07:16. | :07:26. | |
safety trained member of staff on that train. They have the correct | :07:27. | :07:32. | |
training and they will not be outsourced or sold short on | :07:33. | :07:35. | |
training, which is what this government wants to do. The changes | :07:36. | :07:43. | |
by the Secretary of State would be awful for disabled passengers. | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
Without a guaranteed second member of staff, the ability of passengers | :07:48. | :07:50. | |
with accessibility requirements to turn up and go is severely | :07:51. | :07:56. | |
restricted. Requiring passengers to make arrangements 24 hours in | :07:57. | :08:04. | |
advance. Southern passengers had previously been left stranded on | :08:05. | :08:08. | |
station platforms because on some services there was no on-board | :08:09. | :08:12. | |
supervisor on the DOO service, there was no want to assist them onto a | :08:13. | :08:21. | |
train. Is it not the case that if passengers are disabled they are | :08:22. | :08:25. | |
required to book 24 hours in advance on a separate service because a | :08:26. | :08:28. | |
conductor cannot leave a train and get somebody over the platform and. | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
He is confusing the matter completely? He makes my point, why | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
are we discriminating against disabled people and their freedom to | :08:41. | :08:43. | |
turn up to a railway station and carry on with their journey as every | :08:44. | :08:50. | |
able bodied person can? Before the Secretary of State claims... No, I | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
will not give way again. Before the Secretary of State claims this is a | :08:56. | :08:58. | |
conspiracy theory cooked up by as left or the RMT. This is a quote | :08:59. | :09:04. | |
from a GTR person there is no cast-iron guarantee a passenger with | :09:05. | :09:08. | |
accessibility requirements can spontaneously board a train on the | :09:09. | :09:11. | |
assumption there would be a second member of staff on board a Southern | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
train. And this, representative from a train operating company looking to | :09:18. | :09:24. | |
introduce DOO who was quoted on the advantage of trains being in service | :09:25. | :09:27. | |
with only the driver on-board bash the good thing would beat all the | :09:28. | :09:31. | |
regular passengers would still be carried. It would only be the | :09:32. | :09:35. | |
wheelchair users who wouldn't be able to travel. So the Secretary of | :09:36. | :09:39. | |
State will be aware the numerous stories of disabled passengers being | :09:40. | :09:43. | |
left stranded due to the staffing changes he is forcing through, | :09:44. | :09:48. | |
including that of Sandra, a 56-year-old woman who was left | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
stranded in the freezing cold for more than two hours waiting for a | :09:53. | :09:58. | |
Southern service on Hampden Park near Eastbourne. Because there was | :09:59. | :10:02. | |
nobody to help her on the train, Sandra said the situation was | :10:03. | :10:06. | |
horrible and embarrassing. It is unforgivable when I had booked the | :10:07. | :10:10. | |
assistance of 48 hours in advance. So, everyone should be able to use | :10:11. | :10:14. | |
rail services and providing assistance to those who need it, | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
should be a top priority to ensure good quality of life. The Transport | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Secretary should be ashamed he is making our railways less, not more | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
accessible for disabled people. I firmly believe the Labour Party, the | :10:29. | :10:34. | |
passenger groups, the staff and the disability charities are in the | :10:35. | :10:39. | |
right, when we said the objective of the government should be to make our | :10:40. | :10:43. | |
railways safer and more accessible, not riskier and more exclusive. And | :10:44. | :10:49. | |
the Gibbs' Report paints a picture of a chaotic relationship between | :10:50. | :10:53. | |
Network Rail, the Department for Transport and go via Thames Link. | :10:54. | :10:56. | |
None of which have sufficient oversight responsibility leading to | :10:57. | :11:02. | |
poor performance on Southern. Chris Gibb said none of the parties in | :11:03. | :11:07. | |
this system share the same incentives or objectives and | :11:08. | :11:10. | |
recommends the custodian of the overall system integrity be better | :11:11. | :11:15. | |
identified. Whilst these criticisms are true for Southern, they are an | :11:16. | :11:20. | |
accurate summary with what is wrong how our railways are managed in | :11:21. | :11:24. | |
general. Labour has consistently highlighted the privatisation and | :11:25. | :11:28. | |
fragmentation of the railway has prevented the necessary oversight | :11:29. | :11:31. | |
and responsibility needed to deliver upgrades and run efficient services | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
will stop which is why, as part of our plans to take rail into public | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
ownership, we will establish a new national body to serve as a guiding | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
mind for the publicly owned railway, to avoid the chaos of which this | :11:47. | :11:52. | |
government has presided. There is no need for the government to prolong | :11:53. | :11:55. | |
the suffering of passengers any longer. This industrial dispute is | :11:56. | :12:04. | |
but one part of an honoured if I'd seen, but managerial inefficiency | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
characterises this woeful service. It is within the Secretary of | :12:08. | :12:10. | |
State's power to end the industrial dispute tomorrow. He can do it by | :12:11. | :12:16. | |
calling off his plans to expand driver only operation and by | :12:17. | :12:19. | |
guaranteeing a second safety critical crewmember on every train | :12:20. | :12:25. | |
and he should do so immediately. As was done with the East Coast Main | :12:26. | :12:30. | |
line which delivered the lowest fare rises and highest passenger | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
satisfaction of any rail service in the country and returned over ?1 | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
billion to the Treasury. It is time to admit defeat and take Southern | :12:39. | :12:43. | |
back under public control as a public service. The privatised | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
franchise railway system allowing all comers, including state-owned | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
rail companies from across the globe with the bizarre exception of the | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
United Kingdom ex-self, to extract profits from passengers and | :12:57. | :13:00. | |
taxpayers alike has had its day. The government should wake up and | :13:01. | :13:04. | |
recognise the chaos they have created and do the right thing and | :13:05. | :13:09. | |
bring our railways back under public control and ownership and if they | :13:10. | :13:17. | |
don't, government will. Can I said two members, apart from the front | :13:18. | :13:20. | |
bench to come, I am working on six minutes. Thank you very much indeed. | :13:21. | :13:33. | |
Can we start with the service that Southern has provided for passengers | :13:34. | :13:38. | |
over the last more than two years has been completely unacceptable. | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
There is no disagreement about that. Our constituents are at the end of | :13:43. | :13:46. | |
their tether is about it and the service, in particular, last year | :13:47. | :13:50. | |
was wholly unacceptable to the point that it was causing economic loss, | :13:51. | :13:55. | |
real suffering on the parts of our constituents. The question therefore | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
is not whether the service has been poor, it is why it is the case and | :14:02. | :14:06. | |
who is responsible. There has been no shortage of criticism on this | :14:07. | :14:10. | |
side of the House of Southern and Network Rail for their part in the | :14:11. | :14:16. | |
story. And two and a half years ago, at the beginning of 2015, I and | :14:17. | :14:21. | |
other members on the side of the has initiated the Bates in Westminster | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
Hall asking questions, we held a succession of meetings with | :14:27. | :14:29. | |
ministers about the performance of Southern when it had taken over the | :14:30. | :14:36. | |
new and expanded franchise. There were clearly serious problems. Not | :14:37. | :14:41. | |
enough drivers and there was also an inadequacy of the infrastructure | :14:42. | :14:44. | |
because of the London Bridge improvements. It was an irony that | :14:45. | :14:49. | |
the ?6 billion London Bridge improvements, which will result in a | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
better service for passengers, have been causing a temporary shortage of | :14:53. | :14:57. | |
capacity for the new franchise, which exacerbated the issues. As a | :14:58. | :15:04. | |
response to the criticism that we were making on behalf of our | :15:05. | :15:10. | |
constituents, the then Secretary of State and then rail minister | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
convened a meeting of the industry and a performance improvement plan | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
was introduced. Whereby the industry agreed it was necessary, | :15:22. | :15:25. | |
step-by-step, month by month, to improve the performance in the new | :15:26. | :15:28. | |
franchise, recognising it wasn't just a matter for the operator, but | :15:29. | :15:32. | |
a matter for Network Rail providing the track, which of course is in | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
public ownership already. The point that the Labour front bench might do | :15:39. | :15:45. | |
well to consider. As a consequence of the performance and improvement | :15:46. | :15:49. | |
plan, performance steadily improved towards the end of 2015. But then it | :15:50. | :15:55. | |
began catastrophically to deteriorate at the beginning of the | :15:56. | :16:01. | |
next year in 2016. Specifically from April onwards. There was no | :16:02. | :16:06. | |
coincidence about that. The reason it did so was because of the | :16:07. | :16:09. | |
industrial action which began at that time. This was not just the | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
official industrial action on the part of the RMT, it was the | :16:15. | :16:17. | |
unofficial action, unofficial action which they have denied. The high | :16:18. | :16:23. | |
rates of sickness, suddenly and a general unwillingness of the | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
workforce to cooperate with the management. It was undoubtedly the | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
case that the operator already, having to improve its performance, | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
already facing difficulties. There was no disagreement about that, the | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
performance declined catastrophically as a result of that | :16:49. | :16:50. | |
industrial action and that action was then joined in by the drivers. | :16:51. | :16:56. | |
Indeed, the work to rule in the case of the drivers was official, rather | :16:57. | :17:02. | |
than unofficial. The consequence was, the service last year was | :17:03. | :17:09. | |
simply appalling. But, what was that all about? It was about the alleged | :17:10. | :17:13. | |
lack of safety as a consequence of the introduction of a system that | :17:14. | :17:19. | |
has been operating on a third of the railway for 30 years. The honourable | :17:20. | :17:24. | |
member from the front implied casually some kind of culpability to | :17:25. | :17:33. | |
safety. But the previous Labour government was in office for 13 | :17:34. | :17:36. | |
years when driver only operated trains were running. These trains | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
run on the London underground. There happens to be a Labour mayor | :17:42. | :17:46. | |
responsible for that. The Docklands Railway has no driver at all. We now | :17:47. | :17:50. | |
have a situation where according to the figures the unions gave us in a | :17:51. | :17:57. | |
meeting this morning, 97, over 97% of the trains that Southern are | :17:58. | :18:02. | |
operating still have a safety trained second member of staff on | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
board. There have been no pay cuts, no job losses, 97% of the trains are | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
still running a second person on board. Fewer than 3% of those trains | :18:14. | :18:18. | |
are not. But the honourable member for the opposition implied they had | :18:19. | :18:23. | |
been de-staffing. Far from mapper has been a 24% pay offer of an | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
increase to Aslef drivers. So there is no doubt about the union's | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
responsibility for what happened last year. I will give way. I am | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
grateful. In the front bench opposite we had nothing but the | :18:39. | :18:42. | |
patients and the teachers, the pupils and the clinical staff whose | :18:43. | :18:49. | |
lives have been wrecked, watching getting railways getting work | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
properly so they are safe and we can rely on them? I agree with my | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
honourable friend. Those who have faced such constraints on their pay | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
over the last few years, it will stick in their throat to see an | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
offer that is given to the train drivers, so their salaries for a | :19:09. | :19:14. | |
four-day, 35 hour week will go to over ?60,000 a year. It is a | :19:15. | :19:20. | |
perfectly generous offer. Frankly, this has got nothing respectably to | :19:21. | :19:23. | |
do with safety and the one thing that is clear is, the other side has | :19:24. | :19:28. | |
been unable to produce any evidence the service that is now running his | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
and said, partly because it runs extensively across the national | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
network and has done for 30 years. Partly because there is still a | :19:39. | :19:41. | |
second member of staff on board as I said. All that is happening is they | :19:42. | :19:48. | |
are not operating the doors. I will give way. He and I have been working | :19:49. | :19:52. | |
on this for a long time as next-door neighbours. If all of that is | :19:53. | :19:57. | |
correct and it is correct, can my honourable friend tell us, with all | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
that we have examined and learned about it, what he thinks this strike | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
is about? I think my right honourable friend question would be | :20:10. | :20:12. | |
best addressed to the unions. I think it is about control of the | :20:13. | :20:16. | |
railways. That is what they seek. It has nothing to do with safety or the | :20:17. | :20:21. | |
interests of the passengers. What is telling is when the industry of | :20:22. | :20:25. | |
action fell away, when the driver only operated trains were | :20:26. | :20:29. | |
successfully introduced on the line, actually the service has started to | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
improve again. That gives the lie to the suggestion this is only about | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
Southern. It is not only about Southern. It is principally been | :20:39. | :20:42. | |
about the industrial action which the unions have unreasonably taken | :20:43. | :20:45. | |
on this railway. The final point I will make is this. There is no doubt | :20:46. | :20:54. | |
there is an inadequacy of investments, historically, on lines | :20:55. | :20:58. | |
which have been taking more and more people over recent years. In the 12 | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
years I have been a member of Parliament, the number of passengers | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
on Southern's main routes have doubled. I welcome the 6 billion | :21:09. | :21:13. | |
London Bridge investment and a ?300 million package the government | :21:14. | :21:19. | |
introduced in response to the Gibb report. Looking forward, there will | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
need to be substantial, further investment in lines which are | :21:24. | :21:28. | |
carrying more and more people on a daily basis, because the | :21:29. | :21:31. | |
infrastructure is actually not equal to the task of carrying the numbers | :21:32. | :21:36. | |
of people, which will only increase with the development that is now | :21:37. | :21:42. | |
anticipated in the South East. But let's be clear whether Blaine | :21:43. | :21:44. | |
principally lies for the disruption over last year, it principally lies | :21:45. | :21:52. | |
with the unions. I am sure there will be a few members in here | :21:53. | :21:55. | |
wondering what the SNP transport spokesman can bring to the Southern | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
rail debate. I am hoping I will have a more rounded opinion about what | :22:02. | :22:06. | |
this is about, which is the Gibb Report. The transport Secretary | :22:07. | :22:12. | |
stood up for 20 minutes and just bashed the unions. To follow the | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
honourable member South Downs, I would say to him, suggesting that | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
staff are actually taking sick days or falsely taking sick days will not | :22:25. | :22:28. | |
bode well for future working relationships as well. It is | :22:29. | :22:31. | |
indicative of whether government seems to be with unions. Madam | :22:32. | :22:40. | |
Deputy Speaker, in this chamber, we will have debates about ideology and | :22:41. | :22:45. | |
the ethos that free market will always outperformed the public | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
sector. However, I think it is quite clear from performance over the past | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
two years, not just the last year, but the past few years, Thames Link | :22:53. | :22:59. | |
railways and Southern rail fiasco suggests otherwise. | :23:00. | :23:03. | |
In the past have been repeated calls for the franchise to be terminated | :23:04. | :23:09. | |
but the Government refused to act. Instead they help 3-set benchmarks | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
to ensure that go be Thames Link railway were not in breach of | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
contract performance measures. Looking back the Transport Select | :23:18. | :23:20. | |
Committee report complained about the lack of transparency and | :23:21. | :23:24. | |
performance data against contractual obligations, so let alone does not | :23:25. | :23:29. | |
help those seeking solutions and understand the contractual position. | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
I would say the report was a welcome interlude although you have to | :23:36. | :23:38. | |
question why the Government sat on it for six months. It seems this | :23:39. | :23:44. | |
government brought it forward in debate not constructively but in a | :23:45. | :23:48. | |
union bashing fashion which will not help things going forward. The | :23:49. | :23:55. | |
report identified ?300 million which need to be spent by the end of next | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
year to ensure that 2018 timetable can be achieved so that is quite an | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
eye watering some, a massive commitment. They committed 300 | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
billion in January but that is over a 12 year period. We are now a | :24:08. | :24:10. | |
quarter of the way into that two-year period. It would be good to | :24:11. | :24:15. | |
know how that work is advancing and hopefully he can provide an update | :24:16. | :24:20. | |
later on. I would also comment that the ?20 million to two is of | :24:21. | :24:24. | |
September actually took the Government ten months to spend that | :24:25. | :24:28. | |
money so I throw that out there in relation to ten months to get | :24:29. | :24:32. | |
through an initial 20 million to programme and expecting to deliver | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
300 million programme in two years. I suspect some of the 300 million | :24:37. | :24:40. | |
football arms from some identified draft. The Government report, it did | :24:41. | :24:49. | |
confirm that franchise arrangements have been completely inadequate | :24:50. | :24:53. | |
today in terms of understanding how infrastructure upgrades would impact | :24:54. | :24:57. | |
on services and that is a Department for Transport failing and something | :24:58. | :25:00. | |
the Government has still got to get to grips with. The Gibb Report | :25:01. | :25:10. | |
always -- also suggested, overnight timetable to allow maintenance on | :25:11. | :25:13. | |
the Brighton railway, I would like to ask what is happening with the | :25:14. | :25:17. | |
production line maintenance that was supposed to be... I give way. I am | :25:18. | :25:25. | |
not sure he has read the report because in the appendix of the | :25:26. | :25:29. | |
report sets out but the short-term and long-term infrastructure | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
projects going way into 2020 so few answers answers I suggest he reached | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
the report. I am asking answers of the Government, I expect the | :25:37. | :25:42. | |
Secretary to tell me. The Government announced 300 main package to be | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
delivered over two years so I'm asking the Government what is going | :25:46. | :25:49. | |
to happen and we are over a quarter of the way through that time period | :25:50. | :25:57. | |
already. The Gibb Report always called for a review of stations of | :25:58. | :26:00. | |
the councils too many services which from our perspective commit to has | :26:01. | :26:07. | |
been a backdrop of nearly 59,000 trains full of courage within 2016 | :26:08. | :26:11. | |
so that could be identified only by the Department for Transport and | :26:12. | :26:15. | |
again that should be resolved going forward. In terms of industrial | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
relations, part of the debate so far, I am pleased to say that the | :26:22. | :26:25. | |
Gibb Report said negotiations must be entered into, I repeat calls from | :26:26. | :26:32. | |
other members on the side to ask the Secretary of State to show | :26:33. | :26:34. | |
leadership and actually try and lead these negotiations. I would disagree | :26:35. | :26:40. | |
with the negative comments about collective bargaining and I don't | :26:41. | :26:44. | |
think that should be in the remit but also the comments on the driver | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
on the operation discussions could result in a full-back perfect in | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
other services, just a conclusion not too far from himself. Safety is | :26:56. | :27:02. | |
a key issue and the Gibb Report confirmed narrow platforms at | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
Gatwick Cousens overcrowding and the like of station shelters elsewhere | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
causes issues with passengers being able to access trains as well. It is | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
understandable looking at it from outside the de-EEO can be seen as a | :27:16. | :27:19. | |
props mud stuck because the staff are one of the staff are ones that | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
have to deal with the consequences if there is an incident. Arising | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
from overcrowding issues that people are leading the trains. I also bring | :27:27. | :27:34. | |
up a serious dereliction of duty in the fact the Government is picking | :27:35. | :27:39. | |
up a ?38 million tab from lost revenue. ?15 million in compensation | :27:40. | :27:43. | |
from passengers. " That could have done in infrastructure upgrades if | :27:44. | :27:49. | |
there was proper forward planning. In Scotland so has actually been far | :27:50. | :27:54. | |
wider national scrutiny of the ScotRail alliance which operates | :27:55. | :27:58. | |
Scotland trains. It come into being in April 2015 and it came in right | :27:59. | :28:05. | |
away as a living wage employer and I think that should be applauded. | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
However also have to acknowledge is that the performance was also look | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
contractual levels of the Scottish Government took the lead, intervened | :28:14. | :28:19. | |
in France including Carling agreed. 181 of 241 actions have been | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
completed and have agreed... The plan itself has been viewed with | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
office and rail and road and found to be robust, deliverable and | :28:31. | :28:35. | |
challenging. Chardy ScotRail now is at 90% and has been ahead of the UK | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
average for 40 years. Looking ahead the Scottish Government is also | :28:42. | :28:45. | |
exploring a public sector bid from a franchise break-up ScotRail going | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
forward. In terms of the public sector bid to UK Government has | :28:52. | :28:57. | |
demonstrated the East Coast Mainline are not viable but profitable to the | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
taxman and the refusal for the Government to recognise this is | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
factory shopping. It raised ?1 million and was rated in the best of | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
that franchise, so again that shows public sector franchises can be | :29:14. | :29:18. | |
leading the way over the private sector. You have just delayed me | :29:19. | :29:32. | |
further... To be fair as armour member made an intervention earlier | :29:33. | :29:37. | |
on so I assume you have cut out some of your speech... In the UK we have | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
got a franchise system that allows state-run bits from foreign | :29:44. | :29:46. | |
countries but at ago Mr refuses to allow public sector beds so there is | :29:47. | :29:54. | |
no logical conclusion... In terms of ScotRail there was some industrial | :29:55. | :29:57. | |
action in Scotland but the Scottish Government swing to meet unions, the | :29:58. | :30:06. | |
Scottish Government offered agreed deals to, this is what should be | :30:07. | :30:11. | |
happening, instead of laughing about the Transport Secretary should be | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
showing leadership and pacing up and speaking to the unions and get round | :30:16. | :30:22. | |
the table. Just to conclude, the Government will hopefully show how | :30:23. | :30:29. | |
matters can progress with GTR but the Scottish Government are showing | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
what can be done and showing a different attitude north of the | :30:33. | :30:35. | |
border but I suggested Transport Secretary should think about that as | :30:36. | :30:42. | |
well. Just a reminder six minute limit applies on backbench speeches. | :30:43. | :30:49. | |
Congratulations on your recent election. Throughout this debate we | :30:50. | :30:55. | |
should not forget the fact that the terrible service on Southern Railway | :30:56. | :30:59. | |
has had a devastating impact on hundreds of thousands of people. | :31:00. | :31:04. | |
People have lost their jobs, had to quit so jobs, my constituent Lee | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
Fenton from Colston got sacked because of persistent lateness due | :31:09. | :31:11. | |
to the poor service on Southern Railway. Parents had not received | :31:12. | :31:15. | |
their children because they couldn't get home on time. Doctors have been | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
unable to treat their patients, teachers have been unable to teach | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
their pupils because of this terrible service. And as Chris Gibb | :31:25. | :31:29. | |
found in his report, a report much called for by members opposite and | :31:30. | :31:33. | |
the unions, the primary cause of the problems in 2016 was the industrial | :31:34. | :31:41. | |
action by the trade unions. The claim is that driver operated doors | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
are unsafe. That is the nub of their contention. And yet 30% of UK | :31:45. | :31:52. | |
service trains, 1.3 million trains a year, run perfectly safely driver | :31:53. | :31:58. | |
operated doors. All of the London Underground runs with driver | :31:59. | :32:01. | |
operated doors on far more crowded platforms, so does most of Europe. | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
Here is what the rail safety standards board wrote in June last | :32:06. | :32:08. | |
year on the topic. They said there is no increased risk from properly | :32:09. | :32:14. | |
implement a driver operated doors that have been detected in any | :32:15. | :32:20. | |
research we have carried out, so there is clear evidence that driver | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
operated doors are entirely safe. And the other sticking point with | :32:24. | :32:28. | |
union is the question whether the train can someone the second member | :32:29. | :32:31. | |
of staff does not turn up, for example because they are sick or | :32:32. | :32:35. | |
delayed or on strike. Every train by the way which was scheduled to have | :32:36. | :32:38. | |
two members of staff will continue to do so but what about second | :32:39. | :32:42. | |
member of staff doesn't turn up? The company position which I think Susan | :32:43. | :32:45. | |
is at the train can still run. The union position is that it cannot. | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
That of course leads to needless cancellations. It also Madam Deputy | :32:50. | :32:55. | |
Speaker means if there is a strike by conductors, that strike is | :32:56. | :33:00. | |
ineffective if the train can run anyway and that I believe the real | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
reason why the RMT are so keen on this point. The honourable member | :33:05. | :33:11. | |
opposite, the member from Middlesbrough, Shadow transport | :33:12. | :33:13. | |
spokesman, said there had been the starting on this railway. I would | :33:14. | :33:17. | |
point out to the honourable gentleman that 100 extra on-board | :33:18. | :33:21. | |
supervisors have been hired since these changes were made, so far from | :33:22. | :33:26. | |
the stabbing, there has been an increase, an increase in staffing | :33:27. | :33:34. | |
levels -- the staffing. 90% of trains have in practice been running | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
with a second person on board. I am very disappointed that as lead have | :33:38. | :33:42. | |
instructed their members to work a four day week because it is having | :33:43. | :33:47. | |
devastating consequences for our constituents as we speak. It is | :33:48. | :33:51. | |
completely unacceptable. There is no good safety grounds and have just | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
made out, and there has been an incredibly generous financial offer | :33:56. | :34:01. | |
made to them. A 26% pay increase from 51,000 to 63,000 for working a | :34:02. | :34:04. | |
four-day week. There is absolutely no justification to this strike and | :34:05. | :34:09. | |
I call upon the honourable member opposite to prevail upon his friends | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
in Aslef to call off this overtime ban at the earliest opportunity. But | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
I would say that we do need to train more divers. There is no question | :34:22. | :34:25. | |
about that and I strongly encourage government ministers to but pressure | :34:26. | :34:31. | |
on the GTR to do exactly that. I would also add that while this | :34:32. | :34:35. | |
unjustified and damaging overtime strike is in place, we should make | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
sure that the trains weren't ideally with eight or 12 carriages and not | :34:40. | :34:44. | |
shortfalls, and I have had reports the constituencies at Purley Oaks | :34:45. | :34:46. | |
Station in my constituency where we have had four Karius trains which | :34:47. | :34:51. | |
does lead to overcrowding so I would ask ministers to look at that. | :34:52. | :34:55. | |
Having placed responsibility primarily with the trade unions, | :34:56. | :34:59. | |
Chris Gibb does of course go on to make a number of other points. One | :35:00. | :35:03. | |
of those as the member for Commander mentioned is the 300 main phone | :35:04. | :35:09. | |
programme. I strongly commend the Government are finding out my that | :35:10. | :35:14. | |
was urgently needed and I have got a note here sent from Network Rail | :35:15. | :35:17. | |
which I can share afterwards with him that this is the work that has | :35:18. | :35:23. | |
been going on and it includes high output balance cleaning and work on | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
the bulk and Sevenoaks water tunnels Management systems. Further | :35:29. | :35:30. | |
particulars are available if the honourable member would like to hear | :35:31. | :35:32. | |
them. That investment was incredibly welcome and incredibly important. I | :35:33. | :35:39. | |
am also very excited about control period six, the major capital works | :35:40. | :35:42. | |
programme coming up in a couple of years and with the right investment | :35:43. | :35:47. | |
between South Croydon station and the Windmill Hill junction, we can | :35:48. | :35:50. | |
increase capacity on the entire Brighton Main by 30% and again I | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
very strongly urge ministers to move the project forward. I would finally | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
say that I think this franchise is rather too large. I understand why | :36:02. | :36:04. | |
it was let in this form because of the works at London Bridge and the | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
tempting transformation, so I entirely understand why it was done | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
this way but I do think in due course the franchise should be | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
broken down into its component parts, Southern, Gatwick Express, | :36:18. | :36:19. | |
Thames Link and great Northern and that would allow for much | :36:20. | :36:25. | |
management. In conclusion, I think the behaviour of people like John | :36:26. | :36:27. | |
Coyle who has stated that his objective is to bring down the | :36:28. | :36:32. | |
Government is wholly inappropriate and I: the unions to end their | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
unjustified strike action forthwith. Gillian Greenwood. I know there are | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
colleagues who are yet to speak his constituencies have borne the brunt | :36:45. | :36:46. | |
of the appalling state of Southern Rail so I will do my best to be | :36:47. | :36:50. | |
brief. I would like to say a few words about the impact on the | :36:51. | :36:54. | |
situation on southern on my constituent and moved some of the | :36:55. | :36:56. | |
wider issues raised by the Gibb Report. It might surprise some | :36:57. | :37:02. | |
honourable members to hear is that delays on southern can impact on | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
trade in Nottingham. The linear nature of the rail network combined | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
with forthcoming changes to the Thameslink timetable will have | :37:10. | :37:13. | |
potentially hugely damaging effect on InterCity Midland mainline | :37:14. | :37:17. | |
services stop the Gibb Report rightly says that sometimes funding | :37:18. | :37:22. | |
availability has prioritised arm into the system without considering | :37:23. | :37:25. | |
the welfare of the overall system and this appears to be the case on | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
the Midland Main line where Thames Link, long-distance and freight | :37:31. | :37:33. | |
services share the same tracks south of Bedford. The December 2018 | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
timetable change will increase the service frequency through the Thames | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
Link to 24 trains an hour and of course on paper this is a welcome | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
improvement for passengers, but in an indictment of the disjointed and | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
fragmented railway planning, the new timetable is not integrated with | :37:52. | :37:54. | |
that of the East Midlands franchise. The intensity of the new timetable | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
will impair the ability of operators to recover after periods of | :37:59. | :38:02. | |
disruption. As the Gibb Report points out this problem is | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
compounded by GTR's theoretically efficient but brittle rostering | :38:06. | :38:09. | |
practices. That means that a single service to shops and an Brighton | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
could cause reactionary delays to travel up to the line and onto the | :38:14. | :38:17. | |
wider network paralysing trains hundreds of miles away. | :38:18. | :38:23. | |
It has been reported in the technical press secretary and nine | :38:24. | :38:28. | |
minute journey time penalty for services operating from London. That | :38:29. | :38:36. | |
is a real concern for passengers and the business community in | :38:37. | :38:38. | |
Nottingham. I understand it is not too late to make members to the | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
timetable. I asked the minister gives a commitment to this issue | :38:44. | :38:47. | |
will be addressed. The Gibb report is long, technical and in places | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
contentious many issues arise from it which can be discussed. On level | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
crossings, which are continued source of delays on the southern | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
network... The legislation that governs the closure of dangerous | :39:05. | :39:07. | |
level crossings is archaic and hugely inefficient. It was welcome | :39:08. | :39:11. | |
that the Gibb report said the recommendations of the Law | :39:12. | :39:14. | |
Commission should be adopted as a new bill. The issue has a long | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
issue. -- history. Dangerous level crossings are the main cause of | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
external risk on the rallies and a major contributor to delays. The | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
issue was referred to the Law Commission by the Government in 2008 | :39:31. | :39:35. | |
and the commission's recommendations were published in September, 2013. | :39:36. | :39:41. | |
In January, 2015, but then Liberal Democrat Minister of State sets into | :39:42. | :39:49. | |
place that we want to bring forward legislation as soon as possible. Two | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
and a half years later and nothing has changed. On the back of this | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
report, will the committee is to give a commitment today that he will | :39:56. | :40:01. | |
finally bring forward this necessary legislation? Finally, we need to | :40:02. | :40:05. | |
talk about the lack of transparency that is characterised by the | :40:06. | :40:09. | |
Government approach to this prolonged period of exceptionally | :40:10. | :40:13. | |
poor service on Southern. As the transport select me said in October, | :40:14. | :40:17. | |
until recently managed, after several attempts and considerable | :40:18. | :40:22. | |
time and effort to extract information from the Department, the | :40:23. | :40:25. | |
contractual performance benchmarks and data entirely opaque. There were | :40:26. | :40:33. | |
questions about the transparency of the report. We know the final | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
version was submitted to ministers on the 13th of December. The claim | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
that this document could not be released until June is unconvincing. | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
If we turn to the minutes of the round National task force meeting | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
held on 23rd of November, it is recorded that Peter Wilkinson, the | :40:53. | :40:56. | |
franchising director said, the Gibb report had been drafted but was not | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
yet signed off by the Secretary of State. The meeting was also told by | :41:01. | :41:06. | |
an individual with the initials NDE, who maybe Nick Brown, that, GTR had | :41:07. | :41:15. | |
had a lot of input to the review. Madame Jeopardy Speaker, when the | :41:16. | :41:18. | |
fire version of the report was published, the sweeping statements | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
about the undesirability of operations surprised some observers, | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
especially as some honourable members on both sides of the Has had | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
backed some form of state intervention. We need to know about | :41:37. | :41:40. | |
the involvement of go via. I think we need to hear why the first | :41:41. | :41:44. | |
approval of the draft report, and then publication of the final | :41:45. | :41:48. | |
version, appears to have been delayed. It is vital that the | :41:49. | :41:52. | |
travelling public can place trust in these reports. Can the minister | :41:53. | :41:58. | |
gives the house and unqualified assurance that the department did | :41:59. | :42:02. | |
not seek to pressure, amend or otherwise influence a report in any | :42:03. | :42:08. | |
way to politicise its content? The situation on Southern has complex | :42:09. | :42:15. | |
causes. The result must be ending the years of misery. The Government | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
has a role to play a part of the role is to generate less heat and | :42:19. | :42:23. | |
more light in the months ahead. We do not need to endorse the Gibb | :42:24. | :42:27. | |
report in full to acknowledge it has made sensible and practical | :42:28. | :42:31. | |
suggestions. Despite all for ministers to take all reasonable | :42:32. | :42:32. | |
steps to get the Southern row steps to get the Southern row | :42:33. | :42:40. | |
network moving again. -- rail network. This morning I attended a | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
meeting where the unions argued it was proportionate and appropriate to | :42:46. | :42:51. | |
strike because 2.75% of trains on Southern operate without an on-board | :42:52. | :42:58. | |
supervisor. The fact that 97.25% of trains do did not seem to sway them | :42:59. | :43:03. | |
which will mean untold damage to my constituents once again in Bolton. | :43:04. | :43:08. | |
In Wilton, the service provided by seven has been unsatisfactory for a | :43:09. | :43:14. | |
long time. -- Wilden. Whilst the performances of Southern has | :43:15. | :43:17. | |
gradually improved over the past year, the behaviour of the unions | :43:18. | :43:22. | |
has deteriorated with the current industrial dispute being entirely | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
irresponsible and cynical. I welcome the Gibb report and I met with Chris | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
Gibb last year to discuss the situation. Mostly seven's poor | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
management and poor communication. The report did not pull any punches | :43:36. | :43:42. | |
with regards to the management of GTR or the Department for Transport. | :43:43. | :43:45. | |
The most damning indictment was give's assessment of the unions. It | :43:46. | :43:50. | |
is plainly stated in a report that the primary cause of disruption to | :43:51. | :43:55. | |
passengers has been industrial action by the unions, compounded by | :43:56. | :44:00. | |
six lead amongst drivers. The report describes the union's two is as | :44:01. | :44:04. | |
debatable and the actions undermining the system. Having said | :44:05. | :44:09. | |
this, GTR seven is not devoid of responsibility. The behaviour of the | :44:10. | :44:13. | |
unions does not excuse the previous ongoing and infrastructure problems | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
that are within the control of the franchise, which is too lenient on | :44:17. | :44:21. | |
financial penalties for failings. Despite all of this, my constituents | :44:22. | :44:25. | |
have had to put up with delays, timetable changes, shortfall of | :44:26. | :44:31. | |
change, engineering works, overcrowding, unsatisfactory | :44:32. | :44:35. | |
compensation processes, nonsensical bus replacement, poor communication | :44:36. | :44:37. | |
and potential ticket office closures. The handling of the | :44:38. | :44:42. | |
dispute does not cover them in glory and unfortunately this line is | :44:43. | :44:48. | |
called the misery line in my constituency. The go via | :44:49. | :44:52. | |
consultation is a step in the right direction. I am pleased that | :44:53. | :44:56. | |
passengers will have an opportunity to comment in detail about | :44:57. | :44:58. | |
timetabling arrangements and proposed reforms that is not enough. | :44:59. | :45:06. | |
GTR must be made to appreciate the seriousness of the frustration | :45:07. | :45:10. | |
caused on a daily basis. I want to draw the minister's tension to the | :45:11. | :45:15. | |
Gibb report, appendix five, which talks about the modernisation of | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
another mine. I have raised this with the minister. As he knows, and | :45:20. | :45:25. | |
I support Chris Gibb's recommendations to electrify the | :45:26. | :45:31. | |
line and also have a depot. The line connects the towns of upfield and | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
crow bred to London. It is one of the few routes not electrified. It | :45:37. | :45:42. | |
is hard to believe that in this country we still rely on diesel | :45:43. | :45:47. | |
trains, which are outdated and are increasingly difficult keep on | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
track. In simple language when they break down, it is hard to find new | :45:51. | :45:56. | |
rolling stock. Even when the Southern services running a full | :45:57. | :45:59. | |
timetable of trends, with a complete number of cars and full quota of | :46:00. | :46:06. | |
staff who have turned up to work, the service is way fully inadequate. | :46:07. | :46:09. | |
The fleet is inefficient and a sustained use of diesel is not | :46:10. | :46:15. | |
viable to go forward. As the Gibb report points out, electrification | :46:16. | :46:21. | |
of the line significantly improved performance and timetabling and | :46:22. | :46:24. | |
resulted in more efficient cooling. It would result in less pollution | :46:25. | :46:30. | |
and overall provide a seven day service within my constituency. | :46:31. | :46:34. | |
Annual season tickets from Crowborough to London cost thousands | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
of pounds. If my constituents are paying 21st-century prices, they are | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
entitled to receive a 21st-century rail service in return. That does | :46:44. | :46:50. | |
mean electrification. Christopher, who lives in my constituency stated, | :46:51. | :46:58. | |
a loss of peak trains will make it even harder than usual for me to | :46:59. | :47:02. | |
keep my commitment is to work and family, including being able to | :47:03. | :47:06. | |
reliably collect my two-year-old and my-year-old children from school and | :47:07. | :47:13. | |
after-school clubs. Electrification and a depot at Crowborough will | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
provide electrification a much-needed resilience on the line. | :47:17. | :47:22. | |
No doubt the minister has read the conclusion of the report | :47:23. | :47:25. | |
recommending a lecture occasion and has a solid financial case behind | :47:26. | :47:29. | |
it. I look forward to having continued conversations with the | :47:30. | :47:34. | |
minister to try to secure that. My constituents would like to know, | :47:35. | :47:41. | |
when the misery line will return to the Uckfield line which will only | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
return after the strikes are called off. I look forward to working with | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
my minister to ensure a depot and electrification within my | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
constituency. I congratulate you on your elevation. I stand here today | :47:57. | :48:03. | |
frankly staggered that 18 months later the southern rail dispute is | :48:04. | :48:08. | |
still going on. I find it staggering in a whole range of areas, some of | :48:09. | :48:12. | |
which are alluded to in the Chris Gibb report. I will remind members | :48:13. | :48:17. | |
of the House it was a resilient report. Not under dispute. It looked | :48:18. | :48:26. | |
at southern rail generally. The unions, I appreciate, talk about | :48:27. | :48:30. | |
safety. They are perfectly entitled to that. The three key areas where I | :48:31. | :48:39. | |
disprove, any female passengers in Eastbourne have contacted me over | :48:40. | :48:43. | |
the last year, as I have been campaigning against this dispute | :48:44. | :48:46. | |
when trying to find resolution saying, we would not feel safe | :48:47. | :48:50. | |
coming back to Eastbourne late at night or early evening if we were in | :48:51. | :48:56. | |
an empty carriage on our own and knowing there was no second member | :48:57. | :49:01. | |
of staff. That is an incredibly important point. Effectively it | :49:02. | :49:05. | |
discounts about 50% of the population. Secondly, | :49:06. | :49:09. | |
schoolchildren. Within Eastbourne a lot of children go to Saint Richards | :49:10. | :49:15. | |
in Bexhill. I know, because parents have spoken to me, that they would | :49:16. | :49:19. | |
remain anxious if their children were in a carriage and they knew | :49:20. | :49:24. | |
there was no second member of staff. Sadly, as has already been talked | :49:25. | :49:29. | |
about by the Labour front bench, disability access. Only a couple of | :49:30. | :49:36. | |
weeks ago, a colleague in Hamden Park within Eastbourne, a wheelchair | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
user, had to sit on the platform as three trains went through because | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
she could not get on. All those three reasons are very powerful | :49:45. | :49:48. | |
reasons why I am fundamentally against DLO and I do not accept the | :49:49. | :49:54. | |
principle and I do not care if 30% of the Network Rail already carry | :49:55. | :50:00. | |
driver only trains. Thank you for giving way. You have explained why | :50:01. | :50:04. | |
you think a second member of staff is important. Does the honourable | :50:05. | :50:09. | |
gentleman accept that 90% of trains are running with that second person | :50:10. | :50:13. | |
on board and that the alternative for the 2% that are not is that | :50:14. | :50:17. | |
those trains do not run at all? I agree. I will certainly be | :50:18. | :50:23. | |
addressing that when I talk about the Gibb report. If you ask members | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
of the public around the country outside the underground because that | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
is a different kettle of fish will stop if you ask people around the | :50:32. | :50:35. | |
country where there are members of the public would prefer to have a | :50:36. | :50:38. | |
second member of staff on the train ride that they would say they would | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
prefer to have a second member of staff. In the Gibb report, it | :50:43. | :50:47. | |
identified GTR has been the worst performing operator in a country | :50:48. | :50:50. | |
with performance deteriorating two or three years before the current | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
industrial dispute. I grant that within the report it identifies | :50:56. | :51:03. | |
industrial nations as being the primary cause of the system's down | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
for the yet it featured in only one page in the entire 163 page | :51:07. | :51:10. | |
document. That leads me to believe just how partial was Gibb in putting | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
together this report. I would also point out that he apparently spoke | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
with GTR over 30 times. I was putting together a report, and | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
government agencies over 45 times. Guess Harry Tansy spoke with the two | :51:26. | :51:32. | |
unions? Zero. -- guess how many times he spoke? There is also | :51:33. | :51:38. | |
directed attention given in the contract to best price. This is when | :51:39. | :51:42. | |
GTR won the contract rather than deliverability does this meant that | :51:43. | :51:49. | |
GTR winning without enough drivers. I understand one losing bidder | :51:50. | :51:53. | |
included more drivers and it may have been a case that the bidder | :51:54. | :51:57. | |
with the fewest drivers one. In other words, colleagues, it was | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
about cost. Not about quality or customer care. It is nonsense that | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
the Secretary of State, who unfortunately has left the chamber, | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
for the Secretary of State to say earlier that he is trying to train | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
more drivers and we want more train drivers. Frankly the original | :52:16. | :52:21. | |
contract was won by GTR on cost with fewer drivers than its competitors. | :52:22. | :52:25. | |
Next, who is leading the southern rail dispute? Who is leading from | :52:26. | :52:34. | |
the row perspective? Is it GTR southern rail or the Government? -- | :52:35. | :52:41. | |
rail. Thank the honourable Dustman for giving way. He was not an MP | :52:42. | :52:48. | |
when the contract was being let. Did he not raise those points at the | :52:49. | :52:49. | |
time? Thank you for reminding me, when I | :52:50. | :52:58. | |
was last here is an MPI was furious about Southern airline and I said | :52:59. | :53:02. | |
they were rubbish frequently and I appreciate you allowing me to remind | :53:03. | :53:07. | |
everyone that. Let's go back to who is actually running GTR and Southern | :53:08. | :53:10. | |
Rail, let's go back to the Gibb Report. He says himself, well yeah I | :53:11. | :53:17. | |
see determining the strategic direction of this dispute, we know | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
whatever side of the House and as I said earlier I had not sponsored by | :53:24. | :53:27. | |
the RMT, whether it is that side of the side, we know that the | :53:28. | :53:32. | |
Government is behind this dispute because they want to bring in driver | :53:33. | :53:36. | |
operated doors, it is obvious and as plain as the noes on my face. Yes, | :53:37. | :53:44. | |
at the minimum that is a member of staff on the train, second number of | :53:45. | :53:49. | |
staff, 97%, but that was not the intention at the beginning. The | :53:50. | :53:53. | |
intention was to break the RMT, to bring in the 00. My priority is the | :53:54. | :54:00. | |
customer. The rail passenger in Eastbourne. The thing is so | :54:01. | :54:05. | |
frustrating and so many people in my town had suffered so much, is | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
because the Government went into this ready to have a war, ready to | :54:10. | :54:13. | |
have a battle, ready to beat the RMT. But you have ended up with is | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
complete stalemate, where two sides have dug in, and the passengers, the | :54:20. | :54:25. | |
community and people have eased one and across the south-east are | :54:26. | :54:29. | |
suffering and I think it is ridiculous and it is about time the | :54:30. | :54:32. | |
Government and the Secretary of State should some leadership. But I | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
would like to do, the Minister of State is in the chair, I'll ask him, | :54:39. | :54:42. | |
two questions before I finish, will the Government confirm or deny that | :54:43. | :54:49. | |
the DFT has never interfered or blocked the resolution of the | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
Southern Rail dispute and I ask him that very specifically in the | :54:56. | :54:59. | |
chamber, in the House, with the full responsibility that the Minister has | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
to answer truthfully, so I'll ask again. Will the Minister confirm or | :55:04. | :55:08. | |
deny the DFT has never interfered or blocked the resolution of the | :55:09. | :55:10. | |
Southern Rail dispute? And the second thing, which myself and a | :55:11. | :55:14. | |
couple of other colleagues have already said, it is crystal. If the | :55:15. | :55:21. | |
Government is serious about ending this dispute, to the benefit of the | :55:22. | :55:26. | |
entire south-east, let alone my own constituency of Eastbourne, why | :55:27. | :55:31. | |
won't they host the negotiations with both the unions, we know we | :55:32. | :55:38. | |
have had opportunities to do that but they are trying to divide and | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
rule, so what I would say, Minister, is pick up the phone tomorrow, to Mr | :55:43. | :55:49. | |
Whelan and Aslef, and the RMT, ticket up to GTR and say, I want you | :55:50. | :55:56. | |
meeting me tomorrow in my office in Whitehall all the unions together, | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
all sides together with no preconditions, and I am absolutely | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
certain if the Government have the guts of the honesty to do that we | :56:05. | :56:08. | |
will resolve this issue within a week. Minister, I waited to hear | :56:09. | :56:15. | |
your answer. Jeremy Corbyn. The point of agreement between me and | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
the previous big is this has caused heartache, distress and job losses | :56:19. | :56:23. | |
to thousands. If the -- Jeremy Corbyn. | :56:24. | :56:26. | |
I welcome it. I think everyone acknowledges it is an serious | :56:27. | :56:35. | |
individual and the report is both bottle at and helpful and copper | :56:36. | :56:42. | |
fencer. The clear message from the Gibb Report is the primary cause of | :56:43. | :56:47. | |
the appalling service was that members the workforce conducted | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
strike action, declining over time and running system integrity. | :56:52. | :56:56. | |
Included, if train crew were at work in a normal manner, the abbot of | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
system, be safe and reliable service, passengers, would be | :57:02. | :57:03. | |
delivered in an acceptable manner. The validity of Mr Gibb's words | :57:04. | :57:08. | |
having reinforced by the tragedy percentage point improvement in | :57:09. | :57:13. | |
performance give based Southern Rail without strikes. GTR has shown that | :57:14. | :57:17. | |
with the support of its workforce it can deliver is Mr Gibb says an | :57:18. | :57:20. | |
acceptable level of service to the customers. I like I'm sure all was | :57:21. | :57:27. | |
in this House and horrified that we are seeing a return to industrial | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
action. Last week public sector perishing was an issue on which | :57:32. | :57:34. | |
people position was keen to land as the Government. I'm acutely aware of | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
how many public sector workers uses trains and therefore on behalf of | :57:39. | :57:42. | |
train drivers rejected the offer were ferried in 4% over four years. | :57:43. | :57:45. | |
Passengers will draw their own conclusions. Passengers do not | :57:46. | :57:52. | |
believe, was he drank it in? If he would like to get in, does he think | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
it is a bad thing that they were putting up members? I have offered | :58:00. | :58:06. | |
him the duty to say that the 24% rise is adequate but he has declined | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
and I understand. I will return to my few words. Passengers do not | :58:11. | :58:18. | |
believe trains operated back Nestle bar and said, or that Germany, | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
Austria, Canada, and safeguard passengers do not want much. This | :58:24. | :58:27. | |
ability to and will be a sister did a job so that they can get into work | :58:28. | :58:31. | |
to do theirs. Due to the couple statistics provided by May | :58:32. | :58:35. | |
honourable friend this morning, they confirmed that it be 70% or so of | :58:36. | :58:40. | |
Southern trains, but used to operate the second person on board, 97.25% | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
continued to do so. Those trains have a second person not preoccupied | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
by opening and closing doors but they are to help passengers. 97.25% | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
is a high proportion. Reflecting the additional numbers of OBS that have | :58:57. | :59:03. | |
been recruited. It is not as high as I would like nor is it as high as | :59:04. | :59:09. | |
the intended to be. The emperor 100%. However I believe that all | :59:10. | :59:15. | |
users of trains would rather see the trains continue to run to gather the | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
passengers. They do not, the negative impact of resources all | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
would be far more than a few percent diminish in service. It would lead | :59:24. | :59:26. | |
to many dozens of passengers being delayed wholly unnecessarily. I | :59:27. | :59:32. | |
would be delighted to give way. Just to clarify, after this mornings | :59:33. | :59:38. | |
meeting, that the unions are striking because 2.75% of trains are | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
not running with on-board supervisors, this will impact | :59:44. | :59:45. | |
hundreds of thousands of paying passengers. I thank my honourable | :59:46. | :59:51. | |
friend that intervention. She really fast wants them why they are still | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
on strike. My understanding is that it is over 2.75% of the 17% are | :59:57. | :00:02. | |
traditionally had a second person on board. And as I said I am convinced | :00:03. | :00:07. | |
that her constituents and my constituents would rather those | :00:08. | :00:11. | |
trained continued to run. I look forward to them being 100% cupboard | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
and 9725% shows to me, but the recruitment, so they are serious | :00:20. | :00:22. | |
about insuring that is a second person on board the sense. | :00:23. | :00:24. | |
Passengers have had enough and it is high time the unions ended their | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
action. However as the Secretary of State made clear, it would be little | :00:30. | :00:34. | |
this report 's death it did we focus on industrial action. It is far | :00:35. | :00:39. | |
broader and useful than that. What grounds do that but the depth of the | :00:40. | :00:42. | |
operating trains in what is usually used and Compaq servers. Southern is | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
as the report states simultaneously running at up to the capacity at | :00:46. | :00:50. | |
peak times and undergoing a period of dramatic change. The introduction | :00:51. | :00:54. | |
of class 700s, new doubles, three bridges and Swansea, doubling the | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
Thames in peak hour trains to 24 through central London. Major | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
production at London Bridge. All good improvement of passengers and a | :01:05. | :01:07. | |
vital to keep really going which has seen a massive increase in passenger | :01:08. | :01:12. | |
numbers. As the Gibb Report makes clear Southern has been under strain | :01:13. | :01:14. | |
with arrival in perception, a timetable that is very tight, but | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
overpowered at peak times services. The railways are in some ways to | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
victim of success. It is a British rail, which the opposition still | :01:24. | :01:26. | |
seem to recall so fondly, the network was declining, and as Gibb | :01:27. | :01:34. | |
points out it was lightly used. In 20 years about aviation, have grown | :01:35. | :01:39. | |
such as that in Southern, more passengers travelling on at any time | :01:40. | :01:42. | |
in the last 90 years. The office as Gibb bases on cooperative working as | :01:43. | :01:45. | |
welcome as I'll pet. He has commended to ensure that a place | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
many of which have already been invented. I am pleased that in | :01:50. | :01:53. | |
January on receipt of the report, the Government immediately committed | :01:54. | :01:57. | |
300 million to be the basic perceptual requirements set out. It | :01:58. | :02:00. | |
is good to hear the Department boss likes recruitment to ensure this | :02:01. | :02:02. | |
region secures investment it requires. Also lessons for operator. | :02:03. | :02:09. | |
Gibb makes clear the complexity of the Southern operators task. There | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
are you and I'm certainly not among them who viewed the scale of the | :02:14. | :02:16. | |
franchise as optimal. However there are those who believe that firing up | :02:17. | :02:23. | |
it would be a simple game, I think Gibb argues persuasively that such | :02:24. | :02:25. | |
an approach is made. Twice operators have been referred to the Salamis, | :02:26. | :02:31. | |
deportation is of greater no report, by government and supervision. They | :02:32. | :02:37. | |
are running at a steady state. Southern will appeared with | :02:38. | :02:40. | |
substantial change. The profession is that firing a brick dust refining | :02:41. | :02:45. | |
the operator would have been at best risky and at worst could lead to | :02:46. | :02:48. | |
chaotic failure. However it appears to me that the operator in bidding | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
for the franchise was to a ballistic as to what they might be able to | :02:53. | :02:59. | |
achieve through software. The system can be highly efficient when it | :03:00. | :03:02. | |
works well. It should in theory work baby. Whether that requires perfect | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
operating conditions and that is not what Network Rail delivers. I never | :03:08. | :03:09. | |
delighted by the Secretary of State public commitment by addition | :03:10. | :03:13. | |
tribals that are being trained and coming onto line. I'm pleased there | :03:14. | :03:16. | |
are more on-board staff know that at the start of this process. They will | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
increase resilience and reduce dependence on campus of the | :03:21. | :03:22. | |
Secretary of State is determined to ensure that we have modern resilient | :03:23. | :03:26. | |
railway delivery passengers and I can graduate him and commissioning | :03:27. | :03:28. | |
this report. And I think Mr Gibb. For his work. I am grateful and I | :03:29. | :03:36. | |
appear to have a very good hit rate with you so far, two days in a row | :03:37. | :03:44. | |
at getting called! Madam Deputy Speaker, I have seen great men and | :03:45. | :03:50. | |
women stand at the dispatch box and take responsibility for things that | :03:51. | :03:54. | |
very often were beyond their control but within the department was in | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
agreement. If we are honest today's debate has proceeded along some | :04:00. | :04:04. | |
pretty well worn tramlines. Those on these benches saying that the entire | :04:05. | :04:07. | |
problem with Southern Rail is to do with industrial action. Those, and | :04:08. | :04:14. | |
these benches, try to acknowledge that there are wider implications | :04:15. | :04:17. | |
about the systemic nature of the very here. I have to say aye think | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
this debate was set up to fail from the very opening remarks and it is | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
important to be aware of the fact that this is not a bug in the system | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
that the Secretary of State chooses not to take responsibility for the | :04:34. | :04:38. | |
situation that we find. It is a feature. I have to say aye am not | :04:39. | :04:40. | |
someone that has to declare any interest other than being someone | :04:41. | :04:47. | |
who commutes daily on Corvette by attempting to get this place. I have | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
in the forefront of my mind by constituent everyday experiences | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
which in some cases mirror my own. We have to take responsibility in | :04:57. | :05:00. | |
this House but the failings of the system as a whole and plot a course | :05:01. | :05:04. | |
about of the very real failings that there are other will go on to say | :05:05. | :05:07. | |
why that is an important thing to do right now. How did we get? Gibb | :05:08. | :05:12. | |
identifies three or four major factors. The first one being that | :05:13. | :05:16. | |
there is no single system operator. He says the Russian 90's | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
privatisation failed to understand the critical needs of the system | :05:22. | :05:25. | |
with regards to Southern in particular. We see that in the | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
fragmentation that happens right across the planning and response to | :05:30. | :05:33. | |
critical failures. I myself have had conversations with the train | :05:34. | :05:36. | |
operating companies who have come up with the revelation that the | :05:37. | :05:39. | |
particular members of staff under control and the Canberra has managed | :05:40. | :05:42. | |
to shops and better so that other train operators who are already in | :05:43. | :05:46. | |
the control room. But there are services in front. It seems a pretty | :05:47. | :05:50. | |
basic failing. But it underlines the fact that there isn't a single point | :05:51. | :05:56. | |
of accountability for this failure. I am grateful to him. Does he not | :05:57. | :06:01. | |
think that that is the end of all but the Department for Transport | :06:02. | :06:04. | |
should be stepping into? My honourable friend pre-empts my idea | :06:05. | :06:12. | |
in the first place. That actually recognising this is a critical piece | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
of infrastructure that is really important for London, the south-east | :06:17. | :06:19. | |
and the whole United Kingdom, that we should treat it in that regard. | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
Something that should be clustered actually and overseen by government. | :06:26. | :06:27. | |
Secondly the cleansing programme which is going to bring very real | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
benefits, ?6 billion investment, -- Thameslink programme. There is very | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
basic failures. Specified babe DMT and that they Network Rail is a | :06:40. | :06:42. | |
programme, a major infrastructure programme but it is put at risk by | :06:43. | :06:49. | |
the basics. The Gibb Report instructs DFT to make a call in this | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
calendar year about whether or not given what we know about the system | :06:53. | :06:57. | |
we can turn on the increase of capacity through the ?16 investment. | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
But the shocking state of affairs to find yourself think that the basic | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
failures of this system doesn't have a shotgun and so one could cause us | :07:08. | :07:10. | |
to waste that money order to delay its implementation. In my | :07:11. | :07:15. | |
constituency in Luton where we have been trying to get a stationary | :07:16. | :07:17. | |
built since the Government cancelled the money when they first came to | :07:18. | :07:20. | |
power in 2010 when the need to assess but as was recognised as one | :07:21. | :07:25. | |
of the ten worst early stations in the country, yet effective the | :07:26. | :07:27. | |
cleansing programmes actually to make a recession worse as we have | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
gone to 12 current platforms and we have refused to disable access. I | :07:31. | :07:34. | |
struggle to think Mike is Zachery the benefits that are there. My beer | :07:35. | :07:41. | |
is we cannot explain to the constituents why there is not | :07:42. | :07:44. | |
commensurate increase in capacity because of the basic failing 38 | :07:45. | :07:45. | |
identifies. Renewing sleepers, tackling | :07:46. | :08:09. | |
vegetation were dealing with fencing, what an indictment on a | :08:10. | :08:13. | |
system that does not prioritise these basic things without keep. I | :08:14. | :08:23. | |
was on the transport select committee as was the minister in his | :08:24. | :08:27. | |
place. There was a report on cold weather disruption. The rail running | :08:28. | :08:35. | |
south of London was a major critical problem and yet we still have | :08:36. | :08:40. | |
struggled to tackle that basic. I hope the transport select two will | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
look at the future shape of the franchise and the list opportunity | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
that members will have a chance put in now. All of the situation was led | :08:49. | :08:56. | |
by government decision-making. In the last parliament and running up | :08:57. | :09:00. | |
to add to give you that with the major infrastructure programme | :09:01. | :09:03. | |
coming in it was not appropriate to let the franchise in the normal, | :09:04. | :09:07. | |
commercial way in which it was. My own view is it was better for | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
government to manage it. It was one third of all passenger journeys in | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
this country across these stations. The Government found a halfway | :09:16. | :09:20. | |
house. They went with a management style contract. They took on a large | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
degree of risk. In my opinion that was a mistake. It was neither fair | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
nor fowl. It put us into a position where we are trying to manage a | :09:33. | :10:07. | |
why the franchisee was chosen are first place. Gibbs comments | :10:08. | :10:08. | |
why the franchisee was chosen are instructive in this report. It is | :10:09. | :10:08. | |
sufficient drivers working. They secret that Sunday services for | :10:09. | :10:09. | |
sufficient drivers working. They have taken on a contract. | :10:10. | :10:09. | |
If this were any other kind of project other than the row is we | :10:10. | :10:15. | |
would have an Olympic style delivery authority taking over this network. | :10:16. | :10:23. | |
-- the railways. It is key to our infrastructure. No one is | :10:24. | :10:27. | |
accountable. This message from the Secretary of State was not to stand | :10:28. | :10:31. | |
up and take responsibility, it was to say, I am not to blame. I think | :10:32. | :10:37. | |
it is time we have a serious discussion. The franchise highlights | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
the problems with the fragmented railway system. Can I warmly welcome | :10:42. | :10:47. | |
you to your place and also welcome the Gibb report on the performance | :10:48. | :10:52. | |
of Southern rail? I thank Chris Gibb for posing some serious challenges | :10:53. | :10:56. | |
for us all to consider this afternoon. Can I focus on a couple | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
of the proposals before turning my attention to what the report | :11:02. | :11:05. | |
outlines as the primary cause for the system integrity to fail, namely | :11:06. | :11:10. | |
the industrial action and the logical position taken by rail | :11:11. | :11:14. | |
unions and their members. If I can talk about resilience rail has been | :11:15. | :11:18. | |
one of the great success stories. The success has caused the current | :11:19. | :11:26. | |
problem in that passenger numbers have doubled. The investment in | :11:27. | :11:30. | |
trains and track has not. With 23% of all rail passengers using the | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
southern network, it only takes one ingredient to fail and the entire | :11:35. | :11:38. | |
network goes down. There are difficult sections within this | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
report for Honourable members to consider. He recommends that trains | :11:44. | :11:48. | |
nonstop at more stations, daytime closures occurred to allow for | :11:49. | :11:53. | |
engineering. Off-peak services are reduced to prepare for the challenge | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
of the peak period and rush hour. The Gatwick Station is transferred | :11:59. | :12:01. | |
over to the airport operator and depots are used to prevent empty | :12:02. | :12:08. | |
trains on the network. It is important to recognise that it is | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
these measures which taken together could give the system the resilience | :12:12. | :12:18. | |
it so badly needs. Can I also touch on the transfer of some services | :12:19. | :12:22. | |
from Southern to Houston? My neighbour, the right honourable | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
member for Hastings and why has been champion of the project to extend | :12:27. | :12:31. | |
High Speed 1 from Ashfield to Beckford, Hastings and thrive. When | :12:32. | :12:36. | |
the innovation of train technology meaning expensive overhead electric | :12:37. | :12:39. | |
occasion can be substituted by hybrid trains which charge | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
themselves over the track. This project looks within reach. It would | :12:44. | :12:47. | |
require this part of the network to be transferred from seven to | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
south-eastern. We welcome this recommendation in the report. We | :12:54. | :12:55. | |
asked the Department for Transport, Network Rail and the train operators | :12:56. | :13:01. | |
to extend High Speed 1 and make the necessary investment. The Sussex | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
coast is at the bottom of the table for capacity, with only 52% of | :13:06. | :13:10. | |
passengers satisfied that they have sufficient carriage space. We need | :13:11. | :13:14. | |
to extend High Speed 1 to improve the experience. Can I touch on the | :13:15. | :13:20. | |
industrial action? Having a seat on the transport select committee for | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
the last term, the constituency reliant on Southern services to get | :13:25. | :13:28. | |
people to work and college and a season ticket on Southern for the | :13:29. | :13:37. | |
last ten years, I have witnessed the logical and devastating impact the | :13:38. | :13:40. | |
industrial action has caused. No drivers or second crew members are | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
losing their jobs. They will only operate without a second crew member | :13:46. | :13:49. | |
in exceptional circumstances, like the second crewman been stuck on | :13:50. | :13:53. | |
another part of the line. No employees are to lose pay. Train | :13:54. | :13:58. | |
drivers are being offered a 23% pay rise to take their four day, 35 hour | :13:59. | :14:05. | |
week to ?60,000. Most would earn ?70,000 by working the fifth day. | :14:06. | :14:09. | |
The crew is not being asked to do anything novel. The dispute is | :14:10. | :14:13. | |
allegedly about a driver controlling doors. 30% of our rail network has | :14:14. | :14:18. | |
run in this manner for over 30 years stop many of those trains have no | :14:19. | :14:25. | |
second crew member at all. Also this is deemed as safe practice. We have | :14:26. | :14:30. | |
touched on the report from Doctor Ian Prosser, the rail safety | :14:31. | :14:34. | |
regulator. His report was called on by the rail unions to confirm | :14:35. | :14:38. | |
whether this practice was safe. He did just that. I find it somewhat | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
distressing. In addition to it being as safe, there are arguments that it | :14:44. | :14:49. | |
is even safer. When looking at Merseyrail, the coroner at an | :14:50. | :14:52. | |
inquest following the death of a passenger who fell onto tracks, | :14:53. | :14:56. | |
recommended that the operation be focused within one person. So, this | :14:57. | :15:04. | |
indeed could be safer as a result. You have the driver controlling the | :15:05. | :15:06. | |
doors and the movement of the train. That links me onto another matter. | :15:07. | :15:11. | |
As I saw, when I went with the transport select committee to view | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
in a train driver 's cab and travel in the train, the video display unit | :15:16. | :15:19. | |
shows when the carriages are opening and closing. It is entirely possible | :15:20. | :15:26. | |
to see what is coming in and out. In addition, that video has the | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
capability to run as the train moves through the station. At the moment, | :15:31. | :15:35. | |
conductor cannot see what occurs on the platform once the doors have | :15:36. | :15:39. | |
closed stop unfortunately that video operation is not being used and it | :15:40. | :15:43. | |
should be. This could be even safer than the current practice. Whilst | :15:44. | :15:49. | |
the lack of logic is frustrating, it is the devastating impact on | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
families, individuals and businesses which affect pressures that are | :15:53. | :16:01. | |
affected most. Many are earning less than ?49,000 cannot commute to | :16:02. | :16:04. | |
London. They have lost precious time with their families they will never | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
get back. The economy, much of it based on travel and tourism in my | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
area has lost ?40 million. Public services have suffered because | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
essential workers cannot get to hospitals and schools or not we | :16:19. | :16:21. | |
locate to our region because they will be unable to do so. Including | :16:22. | :16:27. | |
the party opposite, to call for the protection and investment of public | :16:28. | :16:31. | |
services on the one hand while supporting denigration of the strike | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
on the other is rank hypocrisy and displays. -- disgrace. I hope we can | :16:37. | :16:41. | |
put these findings in place and the unions will cease their pointless | :16:42. | :16:48. | |
action. After the next speaker, the time limit will be reduced to five | :16:49. | :16:54. | |
minutes. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. What a huge honour | :16:55. | :16:59. | |
it is to be called to this Parliament under your leadership in | :17:00. | :17:04. | |
the chair. Following on from the member for Luton South, I share his | :17:05. | :17:08. | |
frustrations. We have been speaking most about the things that Chris | :17:09. | :17:15. | |
Gibb spoke about the lease. That has been an intense form of frustration. | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
-- the least. If the Gibb report teaches anything great is that there | :17:21. | :17:25. | |
is a lot of blame to go around. No organisation is blameless. Right now | :17:26. | :17:29. | |
a small amount of humility will go a very long way. That is why the Gibb | :17:30. | :17:33. | |
report is such a useful tool and a credit to him as an author. For the | :17:34. | :17:38. | |
first time parliamentarians and passengers can see behind the smoke | :17:39. | :17:41. | |
and mirrors and grasp the full extent of the dysfunction of the | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
root cause of today's problems. As the Gibb report itself states, Olly | :17:48. | :17:52. | |
elements in the system had been under strain. Unreliable | :17:53. | :17:56. | |
infrastructure, a tight timetable, key stations that are overcrowded, | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
depots that are full and in the wrong place and people involved in | :18:01. | :18:04. | |
formal and informal industrial action. This, in one paragraph, | :18:05. | :18:08. | |
explains why the network has experienced so many catastrophic | :18:09. | :18:13. | |
failures, even before the start of the most recent industrial action. | :18:14. | :18:17. | |
Southern rail reduced its timetable by two thirds for almost four | :18:18. | :18:22. | |
months. It was a terrible blow for commuters. The reason the shortage | :18:23. | :18:26. | |
of drivers. It was inexplicable to passengers have such a stupid act of | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
planning and incompetence could have happened and the consequences were | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
so very far reaching. At that time, neither Southern nor government | :18:38. | :18:41. | |
would act set responsibility for the shortages, simply blaming the length | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
of time it takes to train new drivers. When things go wrong, | :18:46. | :18:53. | |
passengers deserve two things. An honest explanation as to what has | :18:54. | :18:55. | |
gone wrong and the belief that lessons have been learned and will | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
never be repeated. The time has come. This has become the new normal | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
for passengers. It is a normal that has wrecked careers, broken | :19:05. | :19:07. | |
relationships and hampered the economy in the South East of | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
England. Places like Brighton Hove Albion have lost millions of pounds | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
in revenue while charities lost thousands of pounds last summer | :19:18. | :19:21. | |
alone. Continued failure on the round network is not a victimless | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
situation. The impact is felt deep and wide throughout the communities. | :19:26. | :19:32. | |
This is the reason why the southern commuter APPG was established almost | :19:33. | :19:37. | |
two years ago. It has been an honour to co-chair the group with the right | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
honourable member for Mid Sussex sitting in his seat now. I believed | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
it has been a vehicle transcending party boundaries which has been | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
incredibly important in such a difficult situation. On the way | :19:50. | :19:53. | |
forward, the Gibb report is clear. We need better leadership, more | :19:54. | :19:57. | |
partnership and more investment than has been the case for generations. | :19:58. | :20:01. | |
On leadership the report says, the custodian of the overall system | :20:02. | :20:09. | |
Integra three -- integrity be better trusted and identified. There has | :20:10. | :20:17. | |
been a leadership vacuum created by botched privatisation and an over | :20:18. | :20:23. | |
fragmented system. What on earth is the point of having the Secretary of | :20:24. | :20:27. | |
State, rail minister, and the entire Department for Transport if we need | :20:28. | :20:30. | |
one new person to come forward and give leadership to the rail network? | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
What exactly are ministers doing or not doing which is leaving set a | :20:35. | :20:41. | |
leadership vacuum in the rail network? Rather than having new rail | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
bosses or super boss, can't the ones we have now do their jobs properly? | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
Heaven knows they are paid enough to do it. Would my honourable friend | :20:50. | :20:54. | |
agree that if the minister is unable to show that leadership, he should | :20:55. | :20:59. | |
think about resigning. It is an honour to take an intervention for | :21:00. | :21:03. | |
my honourable friend for Brighton Kemptown for the very first time I | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
welcome him to his seat. I think there have been failures right | :21:09. | :21:11. | |
across the board. What passengers need is for people in those | :21:12. | :21:15. | |
positions to get a grip without delay. Infrastructure investment is | :21:16. | :21:20. | |
the final piece in the jigsaw. As the report stakes, the | :21:21. | :21:23. | |
infrastructure and southern network is a poor and unreliable condition. | :21:24. | :21:27. | |
The blame rests with successive governments and not this one alone. | :21:28. | :21:34. | |
the historic underinvestment in the historic | :21:35. | :21:35. | |
their rail network. The South East their rail network. The South East | :21:36. | :21:39. | |
of England accounts for 30% of the of England accounts for 30% of the | :21:40. | :21:40. | |
country's passenger journeys are only 15% of investment. At a time | :21:41. | :21:46. | |
when the country is focused on HF too, too little is being spent on | :21:47. | :21:52. | |
what Lord Adonis has said is the greatest transport challenge we | :21:53. | :21:57. | |
face. -- HS2. That is getting people to and from work every day in the | :21:58. | :22:02. | |
South East of England. Governments has unlocked millions of pounds of | :22:03. | :22:08. | |
funding in the south-east to stand a chance this level of investment must | :22:09. | :22:12. | |
continue into the next control period when this one comes to an | :22:13. | :22:19. | |
end. I will give way. Would he agree, I agree everywhere to he | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
says... Would he agree that it is now more important to come to an | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
agreement between all the parties, so that this infrastructure | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
investment may proceed? Without it, it frankly would not make sense to | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
have that level of infrastructure. I could not agree more. I have said so | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
off the record and would be happy to do so here. As I have said to them | :22:44. | :22:48. | |
and step in person, I hope the ministers will be more muscular and | :22:49. | :22:52. | |
active in this process and not sit on the sidelines. Every party needs | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
to get around the table in the most active way to resolve this problem | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
for and on behalf of passengers. It is imperative that the Government | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
confirms without delay and it will carry on the investment into the | :23:05. | :23:08. | |
next control period. Guaranteeing up to ?1 billion would be available | :23:09. | :23:14. | |
through the next control period in its entirety. Once the industrial | :23:15. | :23:16. | |
action is settled and the remaining structural challenges are the focus | :23:17. | :23:21. | |
of our attention, passengers will rightfully be demanding month on | :23:22. | :23:24. | |
month improvements in the service they experience. Right now the | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
infrastructure that underpins our system is too weak to offer the | :23:29. | :23:31. | |
robust improvements passengers deserve. We must move unrelentingly | :23:32. | :23:36. | |
towards the point where our rail network is bullet-proof. Within a | :23:37. | :23:41. | |
month of becoming an MP, I had asked ministers to scrap the 313 units | :23:42. | :23:46. | |
from our coast away route. Some were built in 1976 and none had a toilet. | :23:47. | :23:50. | |
These trains are loathed by everyone. It begs the question of | :23:51. | :23:58. | |
the report. Some of the things it finds so blindingly obvious, why did | :23:59. | :24:01. | |
it take the report to say in the first place? Then there are suicide | :24:02. | :24:05. | |
hotspots, bridges being struck by vehicles due to lack of signage, | :24:06. | :24:10. | |
unnecessary crowded timetables that are there for historic reasons. Why | :24:11. | :24:13. | |
do we need an Independent review to tell as these things? | :24:14. | :24:19. | |
Government, GTO and Network Rail should easily have the capacity to | :24:20. | :24:23. | |
sort these things out without the need for an independent assessor. | :24:24. | :24:26. | |
But we are where we are and at last we have a manual on how to improve | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
our system. The salad to the Government and its partners to make | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
it a reality and this Parliament to scrutinise, challenge and support | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
when need be every step of the weight and everyone will set up in | :24:39. | :24:44. | |
the task of doing so. What a pleasure to see you in your place | :24:45. | :24:48. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker and may I thank the honourable member for hope for | :24:49. | :24:51. | |
all the work he has done along with my honourable friend, right | :24:52. | :24:56. | |
honourable friend forgive me, for the all-party biology group Southern | :24:57. | :24:58. | |
Rail and I hope we will be reforming as soon as he is ready. This is a | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
particularly important debate for me and it is one that is a cluster made | :25:03. | :25:09. | |
home in the sense that I actually live near to a tray station and the | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
train a Southern Rail line that they take to get here. This is a huge | :25:13. | :25:18. | |
impact on my life and the life of many of the people I have the | :25:19. | :25:21. | |
privilege to represent. Because there are people around my | :25:22. | :25:26. | |
communities who are not able to get home or get to school and therefore | :25:27. | :25:29. | |
the parents even if they could have gone to work can't because they | :25:30. | :25:32. | |
don't have that southern emergency childcare. I have been working | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
closely with my right honourable friend the Minister who has done | :25:37. | :25:40. | |
enormous amounts of work late in working to make sure that the rail | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
network is getting the money it requires but here we find in the | :25:46. | :25:48. | |
Gibb Report so many indications of why this isn't just about money. It | :25:49. | :25:53. | |
is about so much more. It is about huge amounts of time and | :25:54. | :25:58. | |
infrastructure. And that is why I am going to skipper with the industrial | :25:59. | :26:01. | |
relations that have been so adequately covered by so many by an | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
honourable and let honourable friend and then going to skip over so the | :26:05. | :26:07. | |
aspects of union power that have been touched upon by friends, even | :26:08. | :26:16. | |
if they are Crosshouse. I'm instead going to focus on areas that I think | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
we read need to take the Gibb Report very seriously. As various people | :26:20. | :26:25. | |
may know electrification of the field line has been spoken about | :26:26. | :26:29. | |
since the 1970s. If it was just for historical knowledge, the last I | :26:30. | :26:35. | |
believe of the tracks that we did use a steam engine for regular | :26:36. | :26:38. | |
commuting services right up until the 1970s. And now that legacy is | :26:39. | :26:42. | |
coming through on the diesel line. Surely enough is enough. It is 2017. | :26:43. | :26:48. | |
Thomas Tank engine now is on an iPad. He is indeed in a book and | :26:49. | :26:53. | |
immoral. And yet still we had diesel trains running on what should | :26:54. | :26:58. | |
frankly be electric tracks. Please Minister, can we have the | :26:59. | :27:01. | |
electricians is factual electrification to need and catch up | :27:02. | :27:07. | |
with the iPad generation? There are many people who I have been working | :27:08. | :27:13. | |
closely with who have spoken about this and spoken about how we can get | :27:14. | :27:18. | |
this done. How we can get the lines jewelled or rather read jewelled is | :27:19. | :27:21. | |
in fact he jewelled line was removed in the 1990s. And then perhaps and | :27:22. | :27:28. | |
here is the real thing, perhaps we can get the line can run beyond | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
upfield. Imagine that, you taking your holidays, but instead of | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
driving down coming you don't want to do that through Crandon and South | :27:38. | :27:39. | |
London and others crowded bits instead you get on at Westminster, | :27:40. | :27:44. | |
you get the Jubilee line straight through to London Bridge and you get | :27:45. | :27:48. | |
on their and you down Saddam most beautiful tracks of Kent and then | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
you end up by accident in Sussex but you still go through the beautiful | :27:52. | :28:00. | |
parts of Kent. Angie. Mike imagine that, for an evening in Brighton | :28:01. | :28:04. | |
after a day in the House. I can see you are ready desires of those | :28:05. | :28:09. | |
moments. I can see this is something we can all important because the | :28:10. | :28:12. | |
reality is there are so many issues that we can touch on, the parking at | :28:13. | :28:22. | |
content and Hebrew. So many folk still have to drive to help them but | :28:23. | :28:29. | |
for Sevenoaks and the impact on the info from it, there are no lanes and | :28:30. | :28:34. | |
cyclist and horse riders and this is a danger for all of us. If we look | :28:35. | :28:43. | |
at the last of these, perhaps most important, the fact we have got to | :28:44. | :28:46. | |
invest in our future. Time and again we have lived off the legacy of our | :28:47. | :28:53. | |
great grandparents' thoughts and dreams. These investments that but | :28:54. | :28:58. | |
the trains, bridges and roads, they were built by Victorian generation | :28:59. | :29:02. | |
and Edwardian generation. Now in this new Elizabethan age surely we | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
need to implement that investment. Because when we do spend on the rail | :29:08. | :29:11. | |
networks we're not spending on getting five minutes closer into | :29:12. | :29:16. | |
London, no, we're spending on making our nation great and we do it | :29:17. | :29:21. | |
because London isn't just the people who live in it, all great | :29:22. | :29:27. | |
metropolises depend on the networks that they feed off and there is none | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
greater than ours. And there is none that requires more investment. Thank | :29:33. | :29:40. | |
you. Almost a century ago become pain to get a train station at which | :29:41. | :29:46. | |
in its fields began. The question in Parliament. Recorded by Hansard in | :29:47. | :29:55. | |
the early 1930s. I was part of the campaign for a quarter-century and | :29:56. | :29:57. | |
you can imagine my delight in 2008 were the first train arrived eight | :29:58. | :30:06. | |
minutes past four on Monday the 2nd of June. The station connects Mitch | :30:07. | :30:12. | |
in central London in just 19 minutes that I could 90 minutes. Since it | :30:13. | :30:16. | |
opened the growth of the area has been remarkable with residents now | :30:17. | :30:21. | |
able to read in central London Mitch Eastfield has been opposed by local | :30:22. | :30:24. | |
housing and has enabled for students and teachers to access St Mark's | :30:25. | :30:30. | |
Academy and other schools. The opening of the station is one of my | :30:31. | :30:40. | |
most good achievement since... As well as the other stationed in my | :30:41. | :30:43. | |
constituency including St Helier Yacht Club Mitch junction. My | :30:44. | :30:51. | |
constituents and many of the other 3000 passengers who use Southern the | :30:52. | :30:54. | |
real everyday pay extortionate rates for an appalling service. All the | :30:55. | :31:03. | |
tools but therefore the growth of Mitcham. The worst rail disruption | :31:04. | :31:09. | |
since 1994. A phone call yesterday from my constituent summed it all | :31:10. | :31:18. | |
up. The drivers are often missing, the trains broken down and I don't | :31:19. | :31:21. | |
think there is a single day when the train is on time and that is not | :31:22. | :31:27. | |
because of striking stuff. My constituent was put on disciplinary | :31:28. | :31:30. | |
action and subsequently lost her job in retail due to the unacceptable | :31:31. | :31:35. | |
regularity of southern's delays. Her story is not alone. Only last month | :31:36. | :31:41. | |
my constituent William that his dream job as the company he worked | :31:42. | :31:44. | |
for could not continue to awaiting his likeness. My constituent Collis | :31:45. | :31:54. | |
has the phrase, daily REG ordinand mixed-use generator. That is not | :31:55. | :32:02. | |
what they deserve when they pay over ?3000 a year. In the last week | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
services and my constituency had been slashed by even more than | :32:08. | :32:10. | |
publicised and the current revised timetable has dropped direct | :32:11. | :32:16. | |
off-peak services from London Victoria, similarly the proposed new | :32:17. | :32:20. | |
timetable from May 20 18th seed a reduction in rush-hour trains and | :32:21. | :32:23. | |
the off-peak trains have a cup of nearly 30 minutes. It is so | :32:24. | :32:27. | |
frustrating to see the intermediate services fly through Mitcham | :32:28. | :32:31. | |
Eastfields without stopping. Helping this very shires at the expense of | :32:32. | :32:40. | |
suburban Mitcham Eastfields. It is apparent that this is not working | :32:41. | :32:44. | |
and too little improvement. I believe the services should be | :32:45. | :32:47. | |
transferred to the Mayor of London. Transport for London clearly has the | :32:48. | :32:51. | |
experience and proven track record of running world-class public | :32:52. | :32:54. | |
transport in the capital. In fact the Gibb Report suggests that parts | :32:55. | :32:56. | |
of Southern Rail would be better operated by Transport for London and | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
they wonder whether that is the reason that the whole of appendix | :33:02. | :33:04. | |
nine has been deducted from the report. This issue is beyond | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
politics and it is affecting the quality of life are thousands of | :33:10. | :33:12. | |
people. People who get up early, go to work, pay their taxes and on top | :33:13. | :33:18. | |
of a hideously high fares to do so and all they ask for in return is | :33:19. | :33:28. | |
from the trains to run on time. Thank you. I welcome the Gibb Report | :33:29. | :33:35. | |
and agreed with almost every single one of its findings. I won't go over | :33:36. | :33:40. | |
many of the comments that had been said by honourable and right | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
honourable member so saddening. But my constituency of Lewis have been | :33:44. | :33:49. | |
particularly affected by the 18 months of destruction that we face | :33:50. | :33:53. | |
and the saloon rail network. It is a constituency silly by Southern Rail | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
so there are no other alternative routes by rail around my | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
consistency. Also it is a very rural constituencies other bus service in | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
many parts and people either drive or get the train were left | :34:07. | :34:09. | |
completely standard. And the 18 months sheer misery caused by a | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
whole range, laid out in the Gibb Report and I am no fan of Southern | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
Rail, they haven't played their part in this, has lead to dangerous | :34:22. | :34:26. | |
conditions for many passengers. Many times a week that at Haywards Heath | :34:27. | :34:29. | |
Wendy Kane is terminated and you can go no further. On a dark winters | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
night when there are no taxis around, no other way of getting | :34:35. | :34:37. | |
round, elderly passengers that there, young man's desperate to get | :34:38. | :34:42. | |
on to their children, and there are people just trying to get home from | :34:43. | :34:44. | |
work. And that has been the legacy of the last 18 months. We are a | :34:45. | :34:49. | |
tourist destination is set on the beautiful South Coast but also in | :34:50. | :34:53. | |
the South Downs national park and the destruction has hit at peak | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
times, the tourist season last summer where we saw a 25% drop in | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
business in many of our retail areas. And they were ahead again | :35:02. | :35:06. | |
during the Christmas period so this has been a devastating time for the | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
poorest parts of my constituency and businesses only just starting to | :35:13. | :35:17. | |
pick up now. Things have improved. Performance rates have improved. We | :35:18. | :35:20. | |
are now ranting into percent mark of daily performance which has to be | :35:21. | :35:26. | |
welcomed. That much of 90%. Passengers feel safe on the train | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
service and businesses are starting to customers coming back to business | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
and for this to be starting up once again with overtime bans and | :35:36. | :35:39. | |
balloting protection is absolutely heartbreaking. We are seeing the | :35:40. | :35:45. | |
second person on boards advises on trains I know when I go back later | :35:46. | :35:49. | |
that I see that second person and they are reassuring to have them on | :35:50. | :35:52. | |
their and I would not support a deal that would remove them completely. | :35:53. | :35:56. | |
So I absolutely welcome the work they do and I am pleased they are | :35:57. | :36:00. | |
still there. But so then do still have some passenger care issues to | :36:01. | :36:06. | |
tackle. -- Southern Rail. When the trains are overcrowded we see in the | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
Gibb Report we are the most congested rail network in the | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
south-east. Does trains are heavily congested. It is an hour and a half | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
journey to London. Time after time even this week the overtime ban then | :36:17. | :36:22. | |
after classifying first-class. We had an incident only last week of a | :36:23. | :36:25. | |
pregnant woman being told off for sitting in first class. And yet | :36:26. | :36:29. | |
other chains have been cancelled because of the overtime ban and that | :36:30. | :36:32. | |
is a Southern Rail customer service issue. That is something that should | :36:33. | :36:37. | |
be acceptable that you shouldn't be acceptable in this day and age. The | :36:38. | :36:46. | |
facility is... I raised the issue above the toilet facilities at the | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
station. Haywards Heath where are trains joined to the London have | :36:52. | :36:55. | |
produced fantastic facilities know where you can drive in with the new | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
car park and get a lift down straight onto the farm. There are no | :37:00. | :37:01. | |
toilet for disabled passengers. It is that on -- customer care that is | :37:02. | :37:10. | |
need to be tested when the Minister gave a response he was positive and | :37:11. | :37:13. | |
urging Southern Rail to try and bring some of those facilities that | :37:14. | :37:16. | |
they have promised but also we need to look at issues of taxable | :37:17. | :37:21. | |
season-ticket that we were promised when this franchise was made. Many | :37:22. | :37:27. | |
passengers were two or three days and the rest of the time work from | :37:28. | :37:30. | |
home. We were promised taxable season-ticket and it cannot be right | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
you have to purchase full time season-ticket when you only use it | :37:35. | :37:40. | |
to a week. We urge Southern Rail to deliver on their promises and | :37:41. | :37:41. | |
commitment in the franchise. I welcome the investment into the | :37:42. | :37:49. | |
main line. There has been underinvested in decades and that | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
has caused 50% of delays over the last 18 months. The money the | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
government has put in is welcomed and is making a difference and that | :37:58. | :38:00. | |
is a reason why performance has improved over the last few months. | :38:01. | :38:06. | |
My final plea is in the rest of the Chris Gibb Report is to look at that | :38:07. | :38:11. | |
line which would enable, if we had a second rail line from Sussex to | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
London it would enable many of the that need to be done on rail line to | :38:15. | :38:19. | |
be done and give a second route from Sussex to London. May I add my | :38:20. | :38:26. | |
congratulations to others that have been expressed, it is a pleasure to | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
see you in your position. I welcome the information gaps and some | :38:32. | :38:37. | |
questions to answer and it is a shame that he left the chamber as | :38:38. | :38:40. | |
soon as he could. On top of the six-month delay between the | :38:41. | :38:45. | |
government receiving the report and the publication but we have had no | :38:46. | :38:50. | |
serious government response. The ministers' 500 word statement early | :38:51. | :38:55. | |
stretches to a side of a four and that is indicative to the whole | :38:56. | :39:02. | |
attitude of the government, hands off, no leadership. After two years | :39:03. | :39:08. | |
of the Brighton nightmare on the railways, my constituents expect | :39:09. | :39:11. | |
better. They have regularly been in tears of anger and frustration. Jobs | :39:12. | :39:15. | |
lost, relationships broken up, businesses taken a hit in Brighton | :39:16. | :39:20. | |
and all the while passengers paying through the nose for what is | :39:21. | :39:22. | |
Britain's worst performing rail service. I have listened to the | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
Secretary of State today and may I point out to him that it will not | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
help passengers the heap all of the blame onto the unions. The people | :39:35. | :39:37. | |
who work on our railways every day, people who are trained to a safety | :39:38. | :39:41. | |
critical standard and working on the front line are raising concerns | :39:42. | :39:44. | |
about access and safety that have yet to be answered. The Secretary of | :39:45. | :39:49. | |
State cannot keep up the pretence that this two year-long fiasco is | :39:50. | :39:53. | |
nothing to do with him and the government. The buck stops with him | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
whether he likes it or not. The chronic problems long predate the | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
industrial action which started a year ago. We have had problems for | :40:01. | :40:05. | |
well over two years and a glance at the graph on page 93 of the Gibb | :40:06. | :40:10. | |
Report makes that clear. Southern was the worst performing company | :40:11. | :40:13. | |
before any industrial action took place. So, as the Secretary of State | :40:14. | :40:20. | |
well knows, Chris Gibb says all the elements of the system have been | :40:21. | :40:23. | |
under strain. He said Southern Rail was attempting to run too many | :40:24. | :40:27. | |
trains under poor and unreliable infrastructure. He make suggestions | :40:28. | :40:29. | |
on issues like signalling, timetabling and services. He says | :40:30. | :40:33. | |
that strategic leadership is missing. That is not news to the | :40:34. | :40:38. | |
long-suffering passengers. When it comes to this dispute, the bottom | :40:39. | :40:42. | |
line is there has been a chronic lack of leadership from this | :40:43. | :40:46. | |
government and ministers. We're not going to get anywhere unless you get | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
people talking together. Witchy agree that it is a case of a plague | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
on all other houses and that southern, Network Rail, the unions | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
and indeed ministers have failed passengers and does she agree that | :41:01. | :41:04. | |
it might be worth investigating the possibility of using binding | :41:05. | :41:08. | |
arbitration to get them in the same room and agree to a way forward? I | :41:09. | :41:14. | |
thank him for his intervention and I agree we need a situation where | :41:15. | :41:18. | |
everybody is in the room at the same time, not a strategy where gay | :41:19. | :41:21. | |
unions are picked off separately, strategy where the government does | :41:22. | :41:24. | |
not sit in the room either. Give makes it clear that his report that, | :41:25. | :41:29. | |
doing nothing is not an option so negotiations must be entered into. | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
The transport select committee called for all parties, including | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
the government, to sit down together and resolve the dispute and they | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
asked for that months ago. The involvement of ministers in the | :41:43. | :41:44. | |
industrial dispute is often officially denied but one phrase | :41:45. | :41:49. | |
does lay bare their central role, saying that the Secretary of State | :41:50. | :41:53. | |
is already determining the strategic direction of this dispute. With the | :41:54. | :41:57. | |
person in this edition will not get around the table without | :41:58. | :42:00. | |
preconditions I don't see how we will make any progress. Can the | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
Minister also tell us where this famous appendix nine is, which might | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
shed light onto this issue, that appendix entitled recommendations | :42:12. | :42:15. | |
regarding the franchise agreement is absent and conspicuous by that | :42:16. | :42:19. | |
absence. My constituents think Southern have failed as do I. We | :42:20. | :42:22. | |
want to see this section of the report because does that missing | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
appendix nine actually tell us whether DTR is in breach of its | :42:27. | :42:32. | |
contractual obligations? Is the entirety of that appendix the reason | :42:33. | :42:35. | |
the report was kept hidden for half a year? Perhaps ministers want to | :42:36. | :42:39. | |
avoid being pushed about answers as to whether GTR was in breach of | :42:40. | :42:44. | |
contractual obligations? In October 2016 the government were told to get | :42:45. | :42:48. | |
a grip on the monitoring and enforcement of the franchise and | :42:49. | :42:54. | |
speed up its assessment of the agreement. Until we have the court | :42:55. | :43:02. | |
case by ABC, the Association of British meat is, we have no action | :43:03. | :43:08. | |
at all. ABC are also raising important questions about the | :43:09. | :43:12. | |
concourse at Victoria -- the Association of British commuters. It | :43:13. | :43:16. | |
says at major stations such as Victoria pedestrian flows and | :43:17. | :43:20. | |
concourse capacity are all significantly influenced by | :43:21. | :43:22. | |
commercial strategy and he points to the fact there are dangers when so | :43:23. | :43:27. | |
many passengers are concentrated in such small spaces mass concourse. In | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
that discussion of points to the Department for Transport as the | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
place where we should be getting to the leadership. Are we? Is Victoria | :43:36. | :43:39. | |
say from overcrowding and can the Minister give us a timetable and a | :43:40. | :43:42. | |
funding commitment on the works that are needed's finally, Gibb says that | :43:43. | :43:48. | |
bringing the franchise into public hands would create disruption and | :43:49. | :43:52. | |
would mean that projects would have to be put on hold but what that lays | :43:53. | :43:55. | |
bare is the fact is government have allowed the travelling public to the | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
health ransom by a failing operator. They have dismantled directly | :44:02. | :44:03. | |
operated railways say that if they were to have the strip GTR the | :44:04. | :44:07. | |
franchise they would have limited options in terms of current project | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
delivery. That is a serious error election of government duty. There | :44:12. | :44:15. | |
has to be a guarantee from the state that if the private sector fails, we | :44:16. | :44:18. | |
can and will take the franchise back into public control because without | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
that there is no stick. The department needs to rectify that and | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
must immediately start preparing a publicly owned organisation to take | :44:27. | :44:30. | |
over on a clear and agreed date. If the industry know that in six | :44:31. | :44:33. | |
months' time the GDR franchise will switch to eight directly operated | :44:34. | :44:41. | |
railway disruption could be avoided and my constituents in Brighton | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
would have a better chance getting a better deal on the railways. As it | :44:44. | :44:54. | |
is the first time with you in the chair may I offer my sincere | :44:55. | :44:56. | |
congratulations on your election recently. It is difficult to | :44:57. | :45:04. | |
describe without being, risking being accused of hyperbole, the | :45:05. | :45:12. | |
sheer misery that passengers and commuters in my crawly constituency | :45:13. | :45:18. | |
but across the South have suffered in recent years because of the | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
significant disruption of Southern Railway services. We have heard many | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
honourable and Right Honourable members describe people losing their | :45:28. | :45:33. | |
jobs, being in disciplinary hearings at their employment because they are | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
consistently late for work. At the other end, I have come across many | :45:39. | :45:44. | |
accounts, unacceptable accounts of my constituents, who don't get home | :45:45. | :45:50. | |
to do the simple but very important things of reading a bedtime story to | :45:51. | :45:53. | |
their children or sitting around the table together to have an evening | :45:54. | :45:58. | |
meal. Lives are literally and livelihoods are being wrecked by the | :45:59. | :46:04. | |
disruption that we have seen and indeed, many times, I have yet to | :46:05. | :46:11. | |
cross to in this way Deputy Madam Speaker but I have been late in this | :46:12. | :46:18. | |
chamber myself a cause of -- because of southern delaying the service I | :46:19. | :46:24. | |
use on a regular basis to get to Westminster. Why have we had this | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
situation? I think it is four fold. Percival, we have a franchise | :46:30. | :46:35. | |
structure which has been bizarrely established by the Department for | :46:36. | :46:39. | |
Transport and I think the government really needs to learn some serious | :46:40. | :46:46. | |
lessons in the way that train franchises are structured. Secondly, | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
we have, as again many members have said, a network that is by far the | :46:51. | :46:58. | |
busiest in the country and is at capacity or overcapacity on too many | :46:59. | :47:05. | |
occasions and on that point I particularly welcome the ?300 | :47:06. | :47:07. | |
million of investment for Network Rail that the government are putting | :47:08. | :47:12. | |
in to ensure those engineering problems are addressed. Then, we | :47:13. | :47:21. | |
have Southern and the parent company GDR, a company that have not | :47:22. | :47:25. | |
performed very well indeed and without repeating earlier stories, | :47:26. | :47:28. | |
some of the ways they have treated their customers is quite appalling. | :47:29. | :47:37. | |
Lastly, as highlighted in the Gibb Report and I congratulate the | :47:38. | :47:39. | |
government for initiating that review last year, we have a militant | :47:40. | :47:46. | |
unions who are determined to exploit the misery of passengers and the | :47:47. | :47:49. | |
situation for frankly their own political ends. There is blame all | :47:50. | :47:57. | |
around on this issue and the people who are suffering, literally | :47:58. | :48:02. | |
standing in the middle of this argument, standing on cold platforms | :48:03. | :48:07. | |
often, are the travelling public of my constituency and elsewhere in the | :48:08. | :48:14. | |
country and from a central position my honourable friend from East | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
Worthing and Shoreham said people standing on trains as well and that | :48:18. | :48:20. | |
is certainly my daily experience as well. This situation does need to be | :48:21. | :48:28. | |
addressed. There have been improvements. I welcome additional | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
investments, Miller with pounds -- millions of pounds in Gatwick | :48:33. | :48:39. | |
investment in my constituency, that is important but the image of Great | :48:40. | :48:42. | |
Britain as people arrived at London Gatwick Airport and try to get to | :48:43. | :48:48. | |
our capital... Thank you for giving way at this time. I wonder if he | :48:49. | :48:54. | |
could comment on the impact on Gatwick. My constituents travelling | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
from Southampton across the Brighton, commuting that way to | :48:59. | :49:01. | |
avoid the 27, or indeed people taking rights to Gatwick, missing | :49:02. | :49:06. | |
them and being left on the side of the platform. Well, she is | :49:07. | :49:16. | |
absolutely right in that the impact on not only the economy but people's | :49:17. | :49:21. | |
lives, missing flights to go on holiday or to do business in the | :49:22. | :49:24. | |
capital or around the south-east has had a massive impact and that is an | :49:25. | :49:32. | |
aspect that perhaps is not always highlighted and I'm grateful for the | :49:33. | :49:34. | |
chance to do that here in the House today. The situation does need to be | :49:35. | :49:46. | |
resolved. I call on the unions to stop their industrial action. There | :49:47. | :49:53. | |
is a generous offer on the table, over ?60,000 for a 35 hour week for | :49:54. | :49:57. | |
those drivers. When it comes to drive only operated doors, as we | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
have heard again earlier on in this debate, they have a proven track | :50:03. | :50:08. | |
record of over three decades on London Underground, many other rail | :50:09. | :50:11. | |
systems around the world and we have also heard that most of those guards | :50:12. | :50:18. | |
on the train will simply be able to be redeployed to more customer | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
focused efforts, which I think is very important, particularly helping | :50:25. | :50:27. | |
disabled passengers on the network as well, so rather than just | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
standing at a door and opening and closing it, engaging better with | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
customers and supporting them. So, I urge the unions to get back to work | :50:38. | :50:46. | |
on a full basis and support my constituents, commuters. I urge the | :50:47. | :50:52. | |
government to continue its investment in our railway and | :50:53. | :50:56. | |
particularly the London to Brighton mainline and I urge Southern and GTR | :50:57. | :51:02. | |
as the operator to be much more customer friendly in the way that | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
they operate, so finally this misery can end. It's a pleasure to be | :51:08. | :51:16. | |
called in front of you for the first time. The reality is that this | :51:17. | :51:23. | |
franchise has been a bad franchise for a significant amount of time. It | :51:24. | :51:30. | |
has not worked and the finger-pointing at the unions, I | :51:31. | :51:39. | |
find slightly hypocritical when Pete Wilkinson of the Department for | :51:40. | :51:46. | |
Transport himself only last year, a senior official said over the next | :51:47. | :51:51. | |
three years we're going to have to have a punch-up. We will see | :51:52. | :51:56. | |
industrial action and I want your support. He says, "We have got to | :51:57. | :52:03. | |
break them. They have borrowed money on their cars, their credit cards | :52:04. | :52:08. | |
and they can't afford to go on strike stop" he goes on. If that is | :52:09. | :52:15. | |
not a political motivation to aggravate this strike, I do not know | :52:16. | :52:22. | |
what is. It is... Let me finish my point. It is a clear and ratcheting | :52:23. | :52:29. | |
up of the dispute and of course there is always blame on all sides | :52:30. | :52:36. | |
but the government and the Department for Transport is in a | :52:37. | :52:37. | |
position of responsibility. We all want a resolution because we | :52:38. | :52:49. | |
want customers to get on their journeys. I will read out a quote | :52:50. | :52:56. | |
from Mr, the RMT union assistant General Secretary, he said on LBC, I | :52:57. | :53:01. | |
think all the Tories are an absolute disgrace, they should be taken out | :53:02. | :53:05. | |
and shot to be quite frank, this is the new gentler kind politics your | :53:06. | :53:08. | |
side has agrees with and believes will bring a lace resolution to this | :53:09. | :53:15. | |
programme like it does not help... When the Government has not been | :53:16. | :53:19. | |
getting the unions around the table in the same room without | :53:20. | :53:25. | |
preconditions. That is how we de-escalating is. People in | :53:26. | :53:28. | |
positions of responsibility like the Minister need to come forward and | :53:29. | :53:32. | |
de-escalated and not just finger point, quote from radios, but | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
actually make sure that we get people in responsibility ticking | :53:38. | :53:43. | |
their leadership that they need to do. But the reality is this is not a | :53:44. | :53:50. | |
dispute also about money. We have heard a lot from the other side | :53:51. | :53:54. | |
about trying to shove cash into the mouths of drivers. This dispute is | :53:55. | :54:02. | |
about safety and accessibility. The unions have put a clear proposal on | :54:03. | :54:06. | |
the table impact where they have offered to make sure that they will | :54:07. | :54:14. | |
come to a deal that would ensure disabled and vulnerable people can | :54:15. | :54:16. | |
turn up to the train station without having to give notice, was there to | :54:17. | :54:21. | |
make sure there would be safety conditions on the trains, and they | :54:22. | :54:27. | |
would withdraw their action. That offer has been disregarded by GTR | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
and disregarded by their puppet masters in the Government. Why I | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
call them the puppet Masters is because this contract is a rigged | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
contract. It is a contract that allows GTR to continue to get the | :54:44. | :54:49. | |
cash incentive to run a service that they failed to run and they do not | :54:50. | :54:55. | |
lose a penny of money when there are not ticket sales, and they do not | :54:56. | :55:05. | |
have to bear the risk. That is the problem. This contract that was | :55:06. | :55:09. | |
created and clearly what needs to happen is this government needs to | :55:10. | :55:15. | |
bring the contract in house. And while the Gibb Report says that this | :55:16. | :55:19. | |
would be disruptive I am afraid the reason it would be disruptive is | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
just as my honourable member has said, that the Government wound down | :55:24. | :55:30. | |
the directly operated operator and have actually left themselves with | :55:31. | :55:40. | |
their pants down. They are unable to run a service and unable to run the | :55:41. | :55:46. | |
contractors to account. Yes, go on. He spent most of his speech panning | :55:47. | :55:52. | |
the rule of the Government and Department for Transport and no said | :55:53. | :55:55. | |
he wants a franchised rod in-house to be run by that same government | :55:56. | :56:00. | |
that he has been panning. I have no problem with the franchise being | :56:01. | :56:03. | |
rude but has to have a care that whoever takes it over can do a | :56:04. | :56:07. | |
better job above it and at the moment that is not clear, so could | :56:08. | :56:11. | |
be a case of the frying pan into the fire. He is quite right of course | :56:12. | :56:19. | |
that I wouldn't want the Minister to directly be running the railways. I | :56:20. | :56:23. | |
think the Minister is barely able to directly from his department it | :56:24. | :56:28. | |
seems at the moment and get people around table to negotiate which is | :56:29. | :56:31. | |
one of the key responsibilities in name a few of the Minister, but the | :56:32. | :56:39. | |
directly operated railways, clearly in the north-east franchise and in | :56:40. | :56:43. | |
the connector south-eastern franchise which was taken off | :56:44. | :56:49. | |
Boswell, operated well improved, service improved and their blood | :56:50. | :56:55. | |
money back to the Exchequer. -- brought money back to the Exchequer. | :56:56. | :57:01. | |
On both sides of this House we can point fingers to each other and I of | :57:02. | :57:05. | |
course will be pointing fingers to the Government, but what you must do | :57:06. | :57:11. | |
is try and resolve this without preconditions. And doing that means | :57:12. | :57:19. | |
we need to get the unions around the table. We need to not say that they | :57:20. | :57:23. | |
are only welcome round the table and they have called off their strike. | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
We have not got them, you have not got them around the table and we | :57:29. | :57:32. | |
need to make sure that is done. If I was a headteacher in a school and | :57:33. | :57:37. | |
had to send my children home because I couldn't organise the supply | :57:38. | :57:42. | |
cover, I would be blamed the headteacher, not the teachers were | :57:43. | :57:46. | |
supply teacher that didn't turn up, the blame needs to be on the | :57:47. | :57:51. | |
management, the blame needs to be on the Government and they need to step | :57:52. | :57:55. | |
up to this because our constituents are suffering ever single day | :57:56. | :58:02. | |
because of their failings. Can I add my congratulations to you for taking | :58:03. | :58:07. | |
your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. When I was first elected two years | :58:08. | :58:13. | |
ago I was campaigning on a number of extra train services that I wanted | :58:14. | :58:17. | |
to bring to something cool including extending the London Underground but | :58:18. | :58:21. | |
I was ready to buy many passengers, mainly Tenzing passengers, that they | :58:22. | :58:24. | |
actually just wanted the trains that were there to run on time. Then we | :58:25. | :58:28. | |
fast forward a little while and now Tenzing complained -- Thames Link, | :58:29. | :58:36. | |
it has been overtaken clearly by Southern. I knew I would hate this, | :58:37. | :58:41. | |
they return to commuting which I hadn't done for a little while. I | :58:42. | :58:46. | |
have been tweeting in debates that I have heard, I only missed me meaty | :58:47. | :58:51. | |
manager event at Victoria station because I can get there by one of | :58:52. | :58:56. | |
their claims. -- meet the manager event. It is predominantly, problems | :58:57. | :59:06. | |
in terms of infrastructure, poor linkages to and the sudden services | :59:07. | :59:10. | |
come through and the link itself first, a lot of problems start. That | :59:11. | :59:15. | |
is where we need investment. All the chains that goes through southern at | :59:16. | :59:18. | |
the moment would ever come to operated. All of the trains at the | :59:19. | :59:23. | |
moment were reasonably well working until they get to that point. There | :59:24. | :59:28. | |
are four things I say in my short time that I have got to speak about | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
how we need to sort this out. No one component is situation in this | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
dispute has come out of it well. The department has to my mind. A very | :59:39. | :59:46. | |
unwieldy agreement, picking up 23% of the entire railway network and | :59:47. | :59:50. | |
infrastructure and that is something I would like to see addressed when | :59:51. | :59:54. | |
the franchise is up for renewal. I would like to see the Mayor of | :59:55. | :59:58. | |
London have a greater say in the management of the suburban lines. | :59:59. | :00:02. | |
That is not kept lines, or the Sussex lines... I give way. And | :00:03. | :00:08. | |
Gretel. I think clarifying that he doesn't include in that Sussex and | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
Surrey lines and Kent does well because of course, we don't get a | :00:15. | :00:19. | |
chance to vote for the Mayor of London. I agree with that because | :00:20. | :00:26. | |
the Mayor of London did himself no favours by overstepping the mark. We | :00:27. | :00:30. | |
need investment in lines as well. But the congestion on those lines | :00:31. | :00:35. | |
and some of the poor quality rail lines there we took to, the | :00:36. | :00:43. | |
honourable lady for Mitcham and Morden, talked about Mitcham | :00:44. | :00:45. | |
Eastfields and the time it takes to get there. Sometimes trains ghosts | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
so slowly, I might as well have been on a milk float. I might have got a | :00:53. | :00:59. | |
seat then so that might be a bonus. Some have been very abrasive | :01:00. | :01:02. | |
inter-approach to union matters especially at the beginning. We | :01:03. | :01:05. | |
clearly have too few character tours and so we we get breakdowns and | :01:06. | :01:11. | |
staff shortages but we come back to the unions and that is not because | :01:12. | :01:15. | |
of any other reason, they are the pressing issue. Chris Gibb said the | :01:16. | :01:20. | |
fact that no one is made redundant or losing pay against their wishes | :01:21. | :01:23. | |
that there will be more duty are trains operating with two people on | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
board and the Driver Only Operation is only already extensive in GDR, | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
the UK and Europe. It is so make this dispute would have especially | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
for passengers. So let's work backwards. Let's get the unions and | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
the table and sort out this dispute and then we can get back to making a | :01:41. | :01:47. | |
terrible situation and service to being just an incredibly poor one | :01:48. | :01:50. | |
and then we can address that and then get to the next age and get it | :01:51. | :01:54. | |
to be a good service. As we have heard from others with the actuality | :01:55. | :01:57. | |
figures starting, but the end of dispute as divers are starting to | :01:58. | :02:02. | |
come on stream and new power characters are set and costume is. | :02:03. | :02:06. | |
And then of the resident, three and many pounds investment and when the | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
franchise comes up for renewal lips look at as a whole and pick it up so | :02:14. | :02:23. | |
it is more manageable. The thank you for chairing today's debate. Can I | :02:24. | :02:28. | |
also put on record my proud relationship with working people | :02:29. | :02:31. | |
through the trade unions and declare my interest? Today's debate started | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
abysmally will stop when the Transport Secretary Bill to mention | :02:37. | :02:39. | |
safety on access for disabled people bonds. His registers against working | :02:40. | :02:46. | |
people came to the fore, clearly not on the party for working people. | :02:47. | :02:51. | |
That's tracker prejudice. My honourable friend thankfully brought | :02:52. | :02:55. | |
us back to the Gibb Report and we have had 19 contributions today. I | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
want to thank my honourable friend for not become South -- Nottingham | :02:59. | :03:06. | |
South piloting the consequences of level crossings. The honourable | :03:07. | :03:11. | |
friend religions are talking about the bullying drivers come to | :03:12. | :03:18. | |
experience on their days off. The member for folk who called for | :03:19. | :03:21. | |
humility and a focus on breadth of issues within the Gibb Report and | :03:22. | :03:25. | |
identified the Government failure of leadership over these matters. And | :03:26. | :03:30. | |
my honourable friend from Mitcham and Morden again talked about the | :03:31. | :03:35. | |
real chaos and stress that this is not too to industrial action and | :03:36. | :03:43. | |
finally my honourable friend the member for Brighton and Compton had | :03:44. | :03:46. | |
focused on the issue around disability access. The perfect storm | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
was set and today we have heard the consequences of her constituents, | :03:55. | :03:59. | |
industry and stuff. Ageing and failing infrastructure have lacked | :04:00. | :04:01. | |
the resources and critical management to address vital | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
maintenance. Heavy demand and overcapacity is manifest in | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
overcrowding, new working practices, new timetables, new commencement of | :04:12. | :04:15. | |
roots, new trains technological advances all have been recommended | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
it without strategic coordination to date. Above all failed and | :04:22. | :04:24. | |
fragmented franchisors are collaboration and strategic | :04:25. | :04:28. | |
oversight were the last considerations and the very worst | :04:29. | :04:31. | |
outcomes for profit driven, privatisation process was apparent | :04:32. | :04:35. | |
putting profit before passengers resulting in passengers paying | :04:36. | :04:40. | |
heavily. Financially for their tickets, went missing the worst | :04:41. | :04:43. | |
effects through overcrowding and does Mr Gibb refers to at every | :04:44. | :04:49. | |
turn, having to deal with the complete unpredictability of the | :04:50. | :04:51. | |
service, it has been utterly chaotic. The buck stops with the | :04:52. | :04:56. | |
Secretary of State for Transport and his government. Who even the courts | :04:57. | :05:05. | |
have now told to exercise his finding a resolution. This has been | :05:06. | :05:11. | |
matched against a safety critical industry where staff are rightly | :05:12. | :05:14. | |
concerned that they will find themselves before an inquest | :05:15. | :05:23. | |
following an incident involving a passenger from whatever reason the | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
technology missing, but a second human I would see. All in a high | :05:27. | :05:32. | |
risk setting where there is potential for an accident, | :05:33. | :05:36. | |
landslide, terrorism, to the possibility of a driver or passenger | :05:37. | :05:38. | |
falling ill, anti-social behaviour or another incident occurring. For | :05:39. | :05:43. | |
those who have disabilities are pushed to the back of the queue | :05:44. | :05:49. | |
ensuring that their needs are met throughout their journey. We have | :05:50. | :05:52. | |
heard that only 2% of trains, we don't have a second chakra second | :05:53. | :05:57. | |
city critically trains that, we wonder why this government can't | :05:58. | :06:03. | |
resolve this dispute and that the dignity of a disabled person who | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
could be left on a platform first. All in charge industrial environment | :06:08. | :06:09. | |
were the agents of the Government and the Government itself declared | :06:10. | :06:14. | |
that rather than solving this dispute, which is frankly easy to | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
do, they are deliberately trying to feel it due to their ideological | :06:20. | :06:26. | |
aversion to trade unions wanting to break them, as Mr Wilkinson the | :06:27. | :06:32. | |
Department for Transport director said as opposed to the sting and | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
addressing the real concerns raised and are apparent for all others to | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
see. The stakes are high. And we have also heard from the GDR's Gibb | :06:43. | :06:51. | |
Report alone convicted recognises this serious attempt to analyse the | :06:52. | :06:59. | |
multi-problems with the network focused on ten different areas of | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
failure and then bring these together, cutting through the layers | :07:04. | :07:07. | |
of self-interest and no part of the network comes out particularly well. | :07:08. | :07:11. | |
Give's recommendations have sought to put passengers at the centre and | :07:12. | :07:17. | |
right magically allied steps and need to build 1000 rail service was | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
collaborate across operators, infrastructures, bodies, regulator | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
and contractor services like maintenance companies. A reformed | :07:28. | :07:31. | |
company which not only challenges behaviour set the template for the | :07:32. | :07:37. | |
industry to refocus. The immense task set requires all parties to | :07:38. | :07:42. | |
take a step back and listen to what the Gibb Report is actually saying | :07:43. | :07:45. | |
between the text. This is an immense challenge. That has to be | :07:46. | :07:50. | |
transition. Problem solving and working together is the only way | :07:51. | :07:54. | |
through this. And a new approach must be adopted by all. | :07:55. | :07:59. | |
There has got to be space for everyone to raise their concerns and | :08:00. | :08:06. | |
instead of being met by a wall of denial that a bit more flexibility | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
would provide a win for everyone. When people talk about staff | :08:13. | :08:16. | |
shortages, that must be addressed and when people talk about safety | :08:17. | :08:20. | |
challenges, that must be heard. I want to return to the fact that we | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
live in critical times and throw this challenge down to government. | :08:26. | :08:30. | |
Technology is advancing at a pace and this is something we can be | :08:31. | :08:36. | |
immensely proud of. Over the next decade engineering and | :08:37. | :08:38. | |
digitalisation across the rail industry will take us to new places | :08:39. | :08:43. | |
that even today are unimaginable. But, the rail industry is ultimately | :08:44. | :08:52. | |
about people and as we progress from generation to generation, the | :08:53. | :08:56. | |
reassurances we seat do not change. In a safety critical environment | :08:57. | :09:02. | |
passengers want safety guaranteed. Instances do occur and I will never | :09:03. | :09:07. | |
forget working in intensive care as the Potters bar tragedy happened and | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
the carnage that I faced as a clinician trying to save lives and | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
put bodies back together. Life is too important. We lose 40 people on | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
the Southern Rail network each with three suicide. Traumatic for our | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
drivers and tragic for those involved. Passengers or even drivers | :09:27. | :09:32. | |
take ill, threatening anti-social behaviour still occurs, women can | :09:33. | :09:37. | |
still feel unsafe travelling alone at night. As the member for | :09:38. | :09:45. | |
Eastbourne reminded us. I do note, there is no women's boys in the | :09:46. | :09:49. | |
Secretary of State's team and maybe it would have been helped all to | :09:50. | :09:55. | |
understand those safety critical issues -- there is no women's boys. | :09:56. | :10:01. | |
Terrorism is now an issue that hovers in all of our mind. | :10:02. | :10:05. | |
Overcrowded Haitian and trains create risk. -- overcrowded stations | :10:06. | :10:17. | |
and trains create risks. So, who will be a passenger champion on each | :10:18. | :10:24. | |
train? Who will keep them safe? Who will have the vital training in | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
order to carry out those vital tasks? Who will provide the second | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
died to support that safe departure and keep the public safe? Those | :10:37. | :10:43. | |
other questions the workers are asking and government are refusing | :10:44. | :10:47. | |
to hear and they are the issues that must be addressed for the sake of | :10:48. | :10:51. | |
the public, too. The government would never dream of taking away | :10:52. | :10:56. | |
cabin crew on a short flight and yet on journeys which may take a lot | :10:57. | :11:00. | |
longer removing the one person who keeps us safe can answer our | :11:01. | :11:06. | |
questions and concerns. It can help meet our needs. It is doing the | :11:07. | :11:13. | |
reverse of what give is calling for. A passenger centred service. As my | :11:14. | :11:21. | |
honourable friend said, none of us want to stand at this dispatch box | :11:22. | :11:28. | |
and lament is only. The site that lessons must be learned. That is why | :11:29. | :11:37. | |
from these benches, Labour would build United, integrators, save, | :11:38. | :11:41. | |
accessible and functioning service for the passengers and we would also | :11:42. | :11:46. | |
champion the rights of passengers, too. Thank you, a pleasure to serve | :11:47. | :11:57. | |
under your chairmanship for the first time in your new role and I | :11:58. | :12:01. | |
also welcome the member for York Central to her place as a new | :12:02. | :12:06. | |
minister. Having had to face a transport select committee on day | :12:07. | :12:10. | |
two of this job and taking up this complex issue and she acquitted | :12:11. | :12:15. | |
herself well in her performance at the dispatch box. Can I commend | :12:16. | :12:22. | |
everyone for participating, a help full debate today, particularly | :12:23. | :12:28. | |
those on the route who have worked so hard, whatever party they | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
represent, to support their constituents and deal with the | :12:35. | :12:37. | |
impact and disruption over the past months. We have two continued to | :12:38. | :12:42. | |
apologise for those passengers who have been affected by the dispute | :12:43. | :12:46. | |
and the disruption. We have heard eloquently today from so many | :12:47. | :12:50. | |
members about lives that have been disrupted, jobs that have not been | :12:51. | :12:54. | |
successful, people not being able to get treatment they need, so many | :12:55. | :12:59. | |
examples and I think the member for Lewis spoke about the impact on her | :13:00. | :13:05. | |
constituency but it is worth reflecting, I think, on why we ask | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
for this report in the first place. The member for Hove seemed to | :13:10. | :13:13. | |
suggest I ought to have sufficient knowledge myself to know precisely | :13:14. | :13:16. | |
what was wrong immediately. I actually brought Mr give in, who we | :13:17. | :13:23. | |
will all agree is a powerful performer when he met the all-party | :13:24. | :13:27. | |
group precisely because in the early days in the role I wanted to | :13:28. | :13:29. | |
understand what the real issues were on this network. We have an epidemic | :13:30. | :13:35. | |
of finger-pointing and we wanted someone with a lifetime of | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
experience on the railway, everybody had confidence in on all sides that | :13:39. | :13:43. | |
he would analyse and that is what he has done. I was surprised that some | :13:44. | :13:51. | |
members opposite, I don't think he could have written a proper report | :13:52. | :13:55. | |
without meeting with GTR and it is worth restating his central finding. | :13:56. | :14:01. | |
Were it not for the actions of the unions, passengers would have | :14:02. | :14:05. | |
experienced a much better service. Ultimately, the quickest path to | :14:06. | :14:11. | |
improvement on Southern is for the unions to refrain from their | :14:12. | :14:16. | |
intransigence. As all members have rightly pointed out on all sides, | :14:17. | :14:20. | |
there are many factors which lie behind the poor performance on | :14:21. | :14:27. | |
Southern including lessons for the departments. But one thing is clear. | :14:28. | :14:32. | |
When the service is not subject to industrial action, performance | :14:33. | :14:36. | |
improves because of the actions of Mr give has recommended. I will | :14:37. | :14:45. | |
happily give way. He is right that when industrial action is not | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
running in the last six months, service does improve but in the | :14:50. | :14:54. | |
previous two years, it was falling without any industrial action. The | :14:55. | :14:59. | |
central finding of the Gibb Report is we need another ?1 billion in the | :15:00. | :15:03. | |
next period after this funding agreement. Will his government | :15:04. | :15:06. | |
provide that? I will come onto that in a moment. I thought he spoke | :15:07. | :15:13. | |
sensibly, as did the member for Newton South and brought thoughtful | :15:14. | :15:16. | |
contributions to the debate. I will answer all the points raised, I will | :15:17. | :15:21. | |
do my best but I doubt I will succeed in the eight minutes | :15:22. | :15:29. | |
available but I will write to you. I didn't speak because I missed most | :15:30. | :15:33. | |
of the debate but one thing not covered, I would liken to mention | :15:34. | :15:36. | |
because it was a manifesto commitment on the side of the | :15:37. | :15:40. | |
customers to make sure we have a railway ombudsman who can make sure | :15:41. | :15:44. | |
that the operators get properly penalised when they provide a | :15:45. | :15:47. | |
rubbish service and the customers don't have to go through all hoops. | :15:48. | :15:58. | |
It was indeed a manifesto commitment, my personal crusade. I | :15:59. | :16:01. | |
was determined that we brought this in partly because of what I have | :16:02. | :16:09. | |
seen myself with issues on Southern. I will have further meetings in due | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
course but I believe we are on track and deliver it as soon as possible | :16:14. | :16:16. | |
and I'm sure it will be welcomed across the House as a whole. We have | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
talked already about some of the wider pressures currently on the | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
network. There are ?300 million investment we announced back in | :16:27. | :16:31. | |
January was a specific response to give recommendations and the member | :16:32. | :16:39. | |
for the FNP raised questions on the speed with which it would be spent. | :16:40. | :16:42. | |
We were very clear from day one that this would be spent up to the | :16:43. | :16:50. | |
December 20 18th -- member for the FNP. -- December 20 18. That is not | :16:51. | :17:02. | |
a matter of replacing bits of old kit but will result in 15% fewer | :17:03. | :17:08. | |
delayed minutes, which is what we are seeking to achieve. Other | :17:09. | :17:14. | |
examples, the member for Croydon South showed interest in the | :17:15. | :17:21. | |
ballast, this is about replacing ballasts on the track. This is about | :17:22. | :17:27. | |
providing a smooth journey and reducing the number of speed | :17:28. | :17:34. | |
restrictions that make it harder to adhere to the timetable. There have | :17:35. | :17:41. | |
also been ?70 million on vegetation clearance. You might think that is a | :17:42. | :17:44. | |
matter of cosmetics but actually two of the most recent incidents in the | :17:45. | :17:48. | |
last control period that cause delays word due to trespassers. That | :17:49. | :17:59. | |
matters, trespassed causes delay on the railways. We are well aware of | :18:00. | :18:08. | |
the project, looking at it closely to make sure we have the business | :18:09. | :18:17. | |
case. Others mentioned some of the station issues to come about as well | :18:18. | :18:23. | |
and I think one of the particular points about Victoria was that we | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
needed single station leadership, much as we are now developing at | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
London Bridge. The problem with stations is where you have train | :18:33. | :18:35. | |
operating companies and Network Rail all trying to make different | :18:36. | :18:39. | |
decisions at the same time. You need single station leadership at our | :18:40. | :18:49. | |
major terminals. We also recognise there were inadequate numbers of | :18:50. | :18:52. | |
drivers at the start of the franchise. We used to understand why | :18:53. | :18:56. | |
that was. Some was down to unexpected departures but I wanted | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
to be clear as to what procedures the department had in place to | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
ensure there were adequate driver numbers in any franchise handover. I | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
am delighted by the fact that we now have over 322 drivers in training | :19:12. | :19:17. | |
across the GTR network but it takes 18 months to train a driver | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
adequately to operate safely on the network so I look forward to those | :19:23. | :19:28. | |
drivers being part of the network. This will reduce reliance on | :19:29. | :19:31. | |
overtime and reduce the impact of any bands currently in place. As we | :19:32. | :19:37. | |
have been hearing today, performance has been significantly better when | :19:38. | :19:40. | |
we have not been placed in the selection. It was as low as 62% back | :19:41. | :19:48. | |
in December. That is a positive thing but it is only doubted because | :19:49. | :19:53. | |
they many of the recommendations have already been put in place. Many | :19:54. | :19:59. | |
people referred to the benefits of smart ticketing. I constantly ask | :20:00. | :20:05. | |
GTR to do more. I look forward to that benefiting constituents soon. | :20:06. | :20:16. | |
Mention has been made on the east Midlands franchise, we need to make | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
sure that journeys will be significantly shorter because of the | :20:21. | :20:27. | |
new Thames Link timetable. That is why Mr Gibbs is continuing in the | :20:28. | :20:32. | |
role for the Department in making sure that all the different actors | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
in that complex interaction will deliver a significant enhancement to | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
the railway that works also. I deliver to sharing more information | :20:42. | :20:45. | |
with her. She also mentioned level crossings. I take that seriously. We | :20:46. | :20:51. | |
need to make sure that what is proposed does what it seeks to | :20:52. | :20:54. | |
achieve. We need to make sure issues of safety at our LO crossings under | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
Tamil wisely -- at our level crossings. -- are considered more | :21:01. | :21:10. | |
wisely. We do use expert knowledge, bring it to the table, make sure | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
Network Rail, publicly owned, many opposite forget that, it is publicly | :21:17. | :21:19. | |
owned, that both they and train operators companies point in the | :21:20. | :21:23. | |
same direction and incentives are lined. We will continue to seek to | :21:24. | :21:34. | |
do all we can to bring these depute -- to an end. The unions and GTR met | :21:35. | :21:44. | |
for 32 days. They reached an agreement on two occasions. That | :21:45. | :21:47. | |
proves it can be done without ministers having to sit in the room. | :21:48. | :21:51. | |
They are actually grown-ups and they can reach agreement. I think it can | :21:52. | :22:01. | |
be done. A further point I would make... In conclusion, a lot has | :22:02. | :22:07. | |
gone on but there will be a lot more to do. Far more to make sure that | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
all passengers get that timely, punctual and reliable service they | :22:13. | :22:16. | |
deserve on this railway and my department will work hard to make | :22:17. | :22:21. | |
sure that is the case. Thank you for your participation today. The | :22:22. | :22:33. | |
question is, as many as are of that opinion say aye. On the contrary | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
noe. The ayes habit. We now come to the estimates notion. Minister to | :22:43. | :22:50. | |
move formally. The question is, as many as are that opinion say aye. On | :22:51. | :22:58. | |
the contrary, noe. I think the ayes habit. Bill ordered to be brought in | :22:59. | :23:08. | |
upon the motion in the name of smell stride... | :23:09. | :23:30. | |
Subtitles will resume on Tuesday In Parliament at 23:00. | :23:31. | :23:41. |