04/07/2017 House of Commons


04/07/2017

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real potential for rare diseases and every other that she mentions.

:00:00.:00:00.

Low-mac order, we must now move on. Urgent question, Angela Rayner.

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Thank you, Mr Speaker. To ask the Secretary of State if she will make

:00:14.:00:17.

a statement on the Government plans for funding on education. Thank you,

:00:18.:00:23.

Mr Speaker. This Government is determined to ensure that all

:00:24.:00:29.

pupils, regardless of where they live, receive a world-class

:00:30.:00:32.

education. Over the past seven years we have made significant progress

:00:33.:00:35.

was that there are now 1.8 million more children in schools that are

:00:36.:00:38.

pretty good understanding than they're worth in 2010. And today we

:00:39.:00:45.

saw and percentage point rise in Key stage two results as pupils and

:00:46.:00:50.

teachers rise to meet the challenge of these new, more demanding

:00:51.:00:53.

curriculum and assessments. Looking beyond skills, the Government has

:00:54.:00:57.

prioritised funding for all phases of education and we announced we

:00:58.:01:03.

would be investing an additional ?1 billion a year early indication

:01:04.:01:07.

entitlements, including funding for the new 30 hours entitlement and

:01:08.:01:10.

funding to increase the per child rate that providers receive. We

:01:11.:01:17.

protected the national base rate per pupil from 16 to 19-year-olds in

:01:18.:01:22.

sixth form, sixth form colleges and further education colleges in

:01:23.:01:25.

England, and in the spring Budget, the Chancellor announced new

:01:26.:01:30.

investment in technical education for 16 to 19-year-olds rising to an

:01:31.:01:35.

additional ?500 million per year. We have maintained funding for the

:01:36.:01:38.

adult education budget which supports adult skills participation,

:01:39.:01:43.

in cash terms, ?1.5 billion per year. We have limited reforms to

:01:44.:01:50.

higher education to drive greater competition and teaching standards,

:01:51.:01:52.

together this adds up to a comprehensive package of support for

:01:53.:01:57.

education at all stages of life. We want to ensure that every school has

:01:58.:02:01.

the resources it needs of which is why we have protected the schools

:02:02.:02:05.

budget in real terms since 2010. We set out our intention to increase

:02:06.:02:11.

funding further in our manifesto, as well as continuing to protect the

:02:12.:02:15.

pupil premium to support the most disadvantaged pupils. We recognise

:02:16.:02:20.

that schools are facing pressures, beyond the total amount of funding

:02:21.:02:25.

going into our schools, we know there are two crucial questions.

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Firstly, we know that how schools use the money is important in

:02:29.:02:32.

delivering the best outcomes for pupils. We will continue to provide

:02:33.:02:37.

support to help schools use their funding effectively. Second, we know

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that how funny is distributed across the country is anachronistic and

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unfair. -- how funding is distributed cost of the current

:02:47.:02:49.

system is in urgent need of reform. We have gone further than any

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previous government in reforming school funding. The second stage of

:02:54.:02:57.

our consultation on a national funding formula for schools closed

:02:58.:03:03.

in March. I am grateful to all the 25,000 people who responded as well

:03:04.:03:06.

as two honourable members who contributed in the more than ten

:03:07.:03:09.

hours of Parliamentary debates on school funding and any face-to-face

:03:10.:03:13.

meetings during the period. It is important we consider carefully how

:03:14.:03:17.

to proceed and as outlined in the manifesto, we will make sure that no

:03:18.:03:20.

school has its budget cut as a result of the new formula, and we

:03:21.:03:26.

remain committed to working with Parliament and bringing forward

:03:27.:03:29.

proposals that will command a consensus. We will set out our plans

:03:30.:03:36.

shortly. Angela Rayner. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think the Minister for

:03:37.:03:40.

schools. But there is no sign of the Education Secretary, and where is

:03:41.:03:44.

the Prime Minister? She is not running her party, she is running

:03:45.:03:51.

away from her party. The Education Secretary bid for extra money for

:03:52.:03:56.

schools this week and not at Cabinet, but on the front page of

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the Telegraph, and no wonder, when Arlene Foster got ?1 billion, she

:04:01.:04:03.

must be the most expensive right-winger since Cristiano

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Ronaldo! Can he confirm there was an increase in school funding of ?150

:04:10.:04:15.

per pupil in Northern Ireland, and is there any extra Treasury funding

:04:16.:04:19.

for education and the rest of the country or not? He has said the new

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funding formula will avoid cash cuts, so where is the funding for

:04:23.:04:28.

that coming from? New money or just cuts elsewhere? When he says no

:04:29.:04:31.

school will lose out, can they confirm this is in cash terms and

:04:32.:04:38.

not in real terms? They promised an extra ?4 billion for schools in the

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manifesto, is that now Government policy and how much of that is for

:04:43.:04:46.

each year? They were going to raise the money by scrapping infant school

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meals, is that still policy? Will he provide universal free breakfasts in

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primary schools and does he finally have proper costings for this? And

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is he still planning to fund new and expanded grammar schools, or has

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that now been abandoned as well? The Education Secretary was not the only

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one haggling with the Chancellor in the Sunday papers. Her predecessor,

:05:08.:05:12.

now the Environment Secretary, said he always listened to public sector

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pay bodies. He must have forgotten he actually abolished the school

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support staff negotiating body. Will the Minister now look at reinstating

:05:21.:05:23.

the Peabody for support staff, and does he support the lifting of the

:05:24.:05:29.

1% pay cap in education? The First Secretary also called for a national

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debate on tuition fees so will he give us one on the floor of this

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House? On the latest fee hike, which they sneaked through during the last

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election campaign. Will he centrally funded any safety measure for school

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builders for recess as well as looking at student issues? Two years

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ago they were elected on a manifesto that promised no cuts to funding of

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any school or any pupil. Will they finally meet that promise? Pies-mac

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we are spending record amounts on schools. We are spending. Rising to

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?42 billion in 2019 to 20. We will respond to the consultation shortly.

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But what the public can be confident of is that what we promise in our

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response will be deliverable, and it will be delivered. Most economic

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commentators know that the wild promises made by Labour during the

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general election to spend billions of pounds a year of taxpayers

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bolt-macro money, nationalising the energy yesterday, what industry, the

:06:38.:06:40.

rail industry, and the billions of pounds of promises made across a

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whole range of spending areas was simply -- would soon be had over ?50

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billion a year to our annual deficits, leading to a crisis of

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confidence amongst those they expect to lend the Government that money,

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and that in turn would lead to a catastrophic damage to our economy,

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an economy that today under this Government has produced strong

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economic growth, Reckitt numbers of jobs and the lowest level of

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unemployment for over 40 years. -- record numbers. It is a strong

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economy that funds public service, it is economic chaos that leads

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straight to the IMF and emergency cuts. The honourable lady raised a

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number of questions. On the issue of the schoolteachers' review body,

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that has submitted its 27th report this Secretary of State, which makes

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recommendations for the 20 17th he award for teachers and school

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leaders. -- 2017 pay award. We need to carefully consider that report

:07:43.:07:44.

and we will publish the report together with our response and a

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draft revised schoolteachers's pay and conditions document as soon as

:07:51.:07:51.

possible. She asked about universal free

:07:52.:08:00.

school meals in infant school. We have listened carefully to the

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proposal to remove infant free school meals and we have decided

:08:04.:08:06.

it's right to retain the existing provision. Universal infant free

:08:07.:08:11.

school meals ensure children receive a nutritious meal during the day. It

:08:12.:08:16.

saves hard-working families hundreds of pounds per year and boost

:08:17.:08:21.

educational achievement, especially among children from the most

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disadvantaged backgrounds. She also asked about fire safety in schools.

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We are conducting a survey of all the schools to find out what

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cladding they have on those schools. Where we find schools over four

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stories, or 18 metres that have cladding, we are asking fire

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inspections to conduct an urgent inspection of the fire safety of

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those schools. In view of the level of interest and other business I

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have to accommodate, I appealed to colleagues to ask brief, preferably

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single sentence questions. Tim Lawton. Whilst appreciating this

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government has done more to address the fair funding formula, the

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Minister knows from his own county, the worst funded shire county in the

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country that head teachers face urgent decisions now. In view of the

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fact the consultation has already been put back one year, can we have

:09:13.:09:17.

an urgent steer on where this formula is going to be resolved

:09:18.:09:20.

before the recess, because these challenges are facing our

:09:21.:09:26.

headteachers now. I welcome the question, it was precisely to deal

:09:27.:09:30.

with the historic underfunding of counties such as West Sussex and the

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other 40 counties across this country that we went ahead and

:09:35.:09:40.

consulted on a national funding formula. I think other governments

:09:41.:09:44.

prior to this one should have done so in the past. I accept his

:09:45.:09:50.

concerns. We already made announcements about 2017-18. We will

:09:51.:09:55.

respond to the second phase of the consultation shortly and have a

:09:56.:09:57.

response to that in the normal course of events. The Queen's Speech

:09:58.:10:04.

has seen a U-turn after you turn with key flagship policies being

:10:05.:10:08.

ditched, including grammar schools in order to appease backbenchers.

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These U-turns make an absolute mockery of the Prime Minister's

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strong and stable mantra. We welcome the U-turn on the decision to scrap

:10:18.:10:22.

free school lunches, but again note and regret this decision was taken

:10:23.:10:27.

not with the interest of pupils at heart, but rather to protect a

:10:28.:10:30.

fragile Queen's Speech from a weakened government. In their

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manifesto the Tories had planned to save 650 million from free school

:10:38.:10:41.

meals and use it in the schools budget. It is now incumbent upon the

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government to provide urgent confirmation on how they will stand

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by their manifesto pledge to make sure no school has its budget cut.

:10:51.:10:56.

Where will be 650 million come from, or have they decided to scrap this

:10:57.:11:02.

additional funding? I have already responded to the point. We have

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committed ourselves to the fact no school will lose funding as a

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consequence of moving to the National fair funding formula. We

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will respond in due course to that consultation and there she will find

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out the answers to her questions. I would say to the honourable lady

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that today we have announced, published results from the Key stage

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two results showing an 8% result increase based on a new and more

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demanding curriculum that is on a par with the best curricula for

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primary schools in the world. I ask her to look at whether the Scottish

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education system is in comparison to that in England. The solution is

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fairer funding. Does my honourable friend agree that those who argue

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for greater funding must be honest as to where it's coming from? For

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every five minutes this statement continues, national debt, already at

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1.7 trillion, increases by ?400,000. For those who argue for more

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funding, are arguing for more debt being loaded on the children of our

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schools. When we came into office in 2010 we inherited an annual budget

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deficit of ?150 billion, we were spending 150 billion more in that

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year than we received in income. That 150 billion is equal to about

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9.4% of the total income of the country. We have reduced the deficit

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thanks to the hard work of this government and the sacrifices the

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people of this country have made. Notwithstanding those efforts we

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have managed to protect core school funding in real terms and are

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protecting record funding for schools. I urge the Minister to come

:12:46.:12:53.

to Huddersfield to look at pupil funding and what teachers and head

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teachers and support staff think of what he has said today. The fact of

:12:57.:13:01.

the matter is morale is very low indeed in the teaching profession,

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and that's largely down to him and his government. We are spending

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record amounts of funding on our schools. ?41 billion this year. We

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understand there are cost pressures that schools have to face with

:13:17.:13:22.

higher employee National Insurance contributions and higher employer

:13:23.:13:26.

contributions to pensions. And funding the 1% pay rise over that

:13:27.:13:29.

period. But we wouldn't have had to make those sacrifices and deal with

:13:30.:13:35.

those efficiencies if we hadn't had to inherit a record budget deficit

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in 2010, and if we hadn't dealt with that budget deficit, we wouldn't

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have the strong economy we have today with record levels of

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employment and the lowest levels of unemployment in 40 years. Esther

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McVey. Can the Minister of State confirm what this means for Tatton

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schools in particular and Cheshire schools in general and there will be

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no cuts in their funding? And very happy to confirm to my right

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honourable friend, and it's very good to see her back in her place,

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and very happy to confirm that no school will see a cut in funding as

:14:17.:14:20.

a consequence of the reforms to our national funding formula. Would the

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Minister confirm whether he's going to protect school budgets in real

:14:31.:14:40.

terms. A school in my constituency is facing ?700,000 shortfall because

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of your so-called fair funding formula. It is not fair. We need

:14:47.:14:55.

increases in real terms. The new national funding formula comes in in

:14:56.:15:02.

2018-19. As I said in my opening comments to this urgent question, no

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school will see a cut in funding as a consequence of moving to the

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National funding formula. He's alluding to the cost pressures on

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schools that are occurring between 2016-17 and over the next four

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years. We have already incurred about 3% of those cost pressures,

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and there is between 1.5 and 1.6% cost pressures over the next three

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years according to figures from the ISS. We are helping schools tackle

:15:30.:15:33.

those cost pressures. There wouldn't be those cost pressures if we were

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not having to deal with historic budget deficit we inherited in 2010.

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Those cost pressures are being born across the public sector, but

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because we are prudent with our public finances, that's why we have

:15:47.:15:50.

record numbers of employment and opportunities for young people when

:15:51.:15:56.

they leave our school system. The Minister is rapidly becoming my

:15:57.:16:00.

favourite minister. At the beginning of the consultation period every

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single school in Southend would lose out. The minister listened, that is

:16:04.:16:07.

no longer the case and there is more funding overall. Can I ask the

:16:08.:16:12.

Minister specifically to look at bulge funding where there is a need

:16:13.:16:15.

in the medium term but not the long-term, to provide places for

:16:16.:16:20.

extra pupils. I'm grateful to my right honourable friend for his kind

:16:21.:16:24.

comments. I hope the same response will come from members of the other

:16:25.:16:27.

side of the house and perhaps in due course you will have that response

:16:28.:16:31.

from them. He is right that we have to deal with growth in pupil numbers

:16:32.:16:35.

and there are provisions within the new funding formula for growth. We

:16:36.:16:38.

will take his views into account when we respond to the national

:16:39.:16:44.

funding formula. May I congratulate my honourable friend in calling this

:16:45.:16:49.

urgent question today. I think once again we are seeing delusion from

:16:50.:16:55.

ministers and members opposite. This discussion today and the warning

:16:56.:16:57.

from headteachers this morning is not about the way the cake is being

:16:58.:17:02.

cut, it's the size of the cake per pupil. That size of cake is being

:17:03.:17:07.

reduced every year because of increased costs. When will ministers

:17:08.:17:12.

actually meet the shortfall in real terms cuts to schools so we don't

:17:13.:17:17.

see headteachers having to cut back on teachers and teaching support

:17:18.:17:21.

staff? I'm grateful for the question. She has said something we

:17:22.:17:28.

have tried to make clear for a long time. There is a distinction between

:17:29.:17:32.

the national funding formula and the overall level of school funding. She

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has been honest and made that clear distinction. The national funding

:17:38.:17:41.

formula is a way of distributing our funding across the school system in

:17:42.:17:46.

a fairer way based on a first stage consultation that allocates

:17:47.:17:51.

significant funding on a per pupil basis for deprivation and low prior

:17:52.:17:55.

attainment, all principles that were universally agreed upon when we

:17:56.:17:58.

consulted in the first measure. There are cost pressures facing the

:17:59.:18:03.

school system arising from things such as increased pension

:18:04.:18:06.

contributions, general inflation and higher employer 's national

:18:07.:18:09.

insurance contributions. We have already said no school will lose

:18:10.:18:13.

funding as a consequence of introducing the National fair

:18:14.:18:16.

funding formula and we will respond to that consultation in due course.

:18:17.:18:21.

I would like to thank the Minister for recognising that the current

:18:22.:18:26.

system is flawed and actually funding should be focused on whether

:18:27.:18:32.

need is. For places like in Medway, that have been charged with

:18:33.:18:35.

delivering an historic number of new homes over the next 15 years, can

:18:36.:18:39.

the minister assure me that the funding will also go to places like

:18:40.:18:43.

Medway where we are in need of more school places in the 15 years. I

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know my honourable friend takes a great deal of interest in education

:18:50.:18:52.

and is very experienced in the field. She is right that as pupil

:18:53.:18:56.

numbers increase, so we increased the number of school places. In a

:18:57.:19:02.

last parliament we created more than 500,000 new school places to deal

:19:03.:19:06.

with the increasing population of primary school pupils. We intend to

:19:07.:19:10.

create another 600,000 new school places over the course of this

:19:11.:19:14.

Parliament, and that's in contrast to the last Labour government that

:19:15.:19:19.

cut 200,000 primary school places at a time when we knew there was an

:19:20.:19:23.

increase in the birth rate. Can I take the Minister back to the

:19:24.:19:27.

question from my honourable friend, the Minister for Manchester Central.

:19:28.:19:30.

This is the crux of this. If you introduce their funding at a time

:19:31.:19:35.

when there greater cost pressures on schools, those that lose under the

:19:36.:19:39.

funding formula lose doubly because of cost pressures. Can I urge the

:19:40.:19:42.

Minister to lobby the Treasury to get the extra money to grow the

:19:43.:19:46.

cake. He will have the support of this side of the house if he does

:19:47.:19:50.

that. I hope we will have his support for the new funding formula.

:19:51.:19:53.

We have said no school will lose under that new funding formula.

:19:54.:19:58.

Don't forget we were clear and transparent and showed the effect of

:19:59.:20:01.

the national funding formula on every single school budget based on

:20:02.:20:06.

2016-17 to show people how it would affect them. It was mathematic that

:20:07.:20:13.

there would be winners and losers when you applied the formula to a

:20:14.:20:16.

year that currently exists. We are now saying no school will lose

:20:17.:20:21.

funding under that formula, even if they did when we showed the

:20:22.:20:25.

spreadsheet showing how that formula would apply. He is right, we could

:20:26.:20:29.

have decided not to introduce the new funding formula at a time when

:20:30.:20:33.

schools are facing these cost pressures. But we took the view that

:20:34.:20:38.

there is more important to address the unfairness in the way school

:20:39.:20:41.

funding was distributed at a time of fiscal constraint than it would be

:20:42.:20:44.

at a time of more ample school funding. The Minister knows Bradford

:20:45.:20:51.

district has some of the lowest outcomes in the education system,

:20:52.:20:54.

yet the government was planning to cut funding from the Bradford

:20:55.:20:57.

district in its original proposals, including in every school of the

:20:58.:21:02.

Shipley constituency leaving one primary School, one week before the

:21:03.:21:06.

general election, to say they were considering closing the school on

:21:07.:21:10.

Friday afternoons. I'm sure the timing of that was entirely

:21:11.:21:13.

coincidental! Can the Minister confirm that no school in the

:21:14.:21:17.

Shipley constituency and Bradford district would lose any funding, and

:21:18.:21:20.

there is no need for any school at all to close on a Friday afternoon,

:21:21.:21:25.

which causes a great deal of anger and concern among parents at that

:21:26.:21:29.

school. I'm happy to give my honourable friend that confirmation.

:21:30.:21:34.

As we said in the manifesto, and as I have confirmed today, no school

:21:35.:21:37.

will lose funding as a consequence of moving to the new fairer funding

:21:38.:21:41.

system. We are helping schools tackle the cost pressures they are

:21:42.:21:47.

facing. We are helping them on how to manage their budgets. We are

:21:48.:21:51.

introducing national buying schemes to help schools to spend non-staff

:21:52.:21:56.

spend in a more efficient way, and we expect we can save around ?1

:21:57.:22:00.

billion across the school system as a consequence of the National buying

:22:01.:22:07.

schemes we are introducing. No doubt the Minister agrees with me that

:22:08.:22:12.

given the financial pressures, or policy decisions should represent

:22:13.:22:16.

clear-cut value for money. I therefore welcome the reported

:22:17.:22:21.

U-turn on grammar schools, but given the financial case for free schools

:22:22.:22:25.

is iffy at best, will be government put a stop to their expansion,

:22:26.:22:28.

especially in areas with surplus places. The free schools programme

:22:29.:22:35.

has been hugely successful. 29% of free schools inspected are rated

:22:36.:22:41.

outstanding by Ofsted. Of the mainstream free schools approved

:22:42.:22:45.

since 2014, 80 6% have been in areas where there was a need for more

:22:46.:22:50.

school places. Of the remaining 14%, they are places where the parents

:22:51.:22:53.

are unhappy with the quality of school places.

:22:54.:23:00.

English has the best educational outcomes in the United Kingdom. Is

:23:01.:23:10.

it not time we celebrated the policies which are working? My

:23:11.:23:17.

honourable friend is absolutely great. The statistics published

:23:18.:23:23.

today showed an increase in the reading and rating statistics. An

:23:24.:23:35.

increase in the amount of children passing the four Nik check. 147,000

:23:36.:23:47.

for six-year-olds passed that test than would have done had we not

:23:48.:23:54.

introduced the test. Can the Minister answer a direct question

:23:55.:24:04.

was a direct answer? In my constituency, there will be a cut in

:24:05.:24:09.

peer pupil funding. The school in her constituency will see a cut as a

:24:10.:24:15.

consequence of a move to the new National Funding Formula. I right

:24:16.:24:24.

honourable friend will recall, probably with school, my question to

:24:25.:24:27.

three weeks before the general election. As Arnold Schwarzenegger

:24:28.:24:34.

would say, a back. I will ask the same question. The new National

:24:35.:24:43.

Funding Formula would mean that my schools would benefit by one third

:24:44.:24:48.

would not. Is he noticing that that is not the case and all schools will

:24:49.:24:56.

actually benefit? I am happy to see my honourable friend back in his

:24:57.:25:01.

place. He is absolutely right. No schools will see a cut in funding in

:25:02.:25:09.

his constituency. Will the Minister stop playing games? What schools

:25:10.:25:12.

wanting or is the total amount of money they have to invest in the

:25:13.:25:18.

school and their pupils. This has not protected school funding. It is

:25:19.:25:24.

insulting to my constituents for me to pretend otherwise. What would

:25:25.:25:29.

they say to the parents to make constituency with VC 10% cut in the

:25:30.:25:36.

funding by 2021. The am not receiving a cut in funding. That is

:25:37.:25:42.

the essence of this is. What we have said is we are spending record

:25:43.:25:48.

amounts of money on school funding. ?41 billion this year. Rising by a

:25:49.:25:58.

further ?1 billion next year. This new National Funding Formula may

:25:59.:26:05.

previously have seen a cut in funding, but it will no doubt be the

:26:06.:26:16.

case. -- not be the case. Children in Gloucestershire received almost

:26:17.:26:20.

half of what the London authority receives. Could he tell us, so I can

:26:21.:26:26.

reassure parents and governors, when we are likely to see the National

:26:27.:26:35.

Funding Formula introduced? We are moving to it in 2018-19. We will be

:26:36.:26:47.

responding to the consultation very shortly to them.

:26:48.:26:58.

My constituency is rich in talent but one of the coolest and we can

:26:59.:27:05.

stick country. Many of the schools will suffer each peer pupil funding

:27:06.:27:15.

cut of ?115. What does the schools minister half to seek to disputing

:27:16.:27:19.

headteachers ceasing desperately difficult decisions as to which

:27:20.:27:26.

teachers, teaching assistants the sack? Holding back the life chances

:27:27.:27:30.

of children who deserve the very best start in life? I have seen some

:27:31.:27:38.

very good practice in the schools that they visited with the

:27:39.:27:42.

honourable gentleman. As they say, under the new National Funding

:27:43.:27:50.

Formula, no school will lose under the peer pupil funding basis. I give

:27:51.:27:57.

my commitment on it. I realise there are cost pressures facing schools.

:27:58.:28:08.

It will be about 1.5% this year in the next couple of years. We are

:28:09.:28:14.

helping schools deal with the cost pressure. We are helping them deal

:28:15.:28:21.

with that, both with how to manage staff budgets but also non-staff

:28:22.:28:27.

spin. That is why we are introducing national buying schemes, the ability

:28:28.:28:33.

for schools to publish services together to deliver greater

:28:34.:28:38.

efficiency. I would like us to move on at quarter past one. We can take

:28:39.:28:48.

some more questions and answers, assuming both are relatively brief.

:28:49.:28:57.

With the introduction of the National Funding Formula mind games

:28:58.:29:06.

be spread out over several years probably be available straightaway?

:29:07.:29:11.

We do not want to make sure any school loses 11.5% a year at the

:29:12.:29:19.

start. I cannot give him a reassuring to until we respond to

:29:20.:29:24.

the consultation. As the Minister agree that the increased national

:29:25.:29:31.

insurance and pension contributions are resulting in cuts in the

:29:32.:29:39.

classroom and impacting on labelling and also affecting children's

:29:40.:29:43.

behavioural issues? There are cost pressures. One of the cost pressures

:29:44.:29:50.

identified as the increased employer contributions to the teacher pension

:29:51.:29:56.

scheme. That is part of a range of measures that are helping to tackle

:29:57.:30:01.

a historic budget deficit which we have reduced from 9.9% of national

:30:02.:30:06.

income down to 2.2% of national income. We need to make sure we keep

:30:07.:30:12.

the economy strong. Our determination as to do that. Can

:30:13.:30:22.

colleagues encourage house-building in towns and villages where schools

:30:23.:30:37.

are facing falling school rolls? I honourable friend makes a good

:30:38.:30:48.

point. We are trying to ensure that we corroborate that. I think Crewe

:30:49.:30:57.

is the worst funded area in Cheshire. I am worried that a

:30:58.:31:03.

primary school is cutting six teaching assistants including the

:31:04.:31:20.

only one who can speak Polish. We have 23 children for whom English is

:31:21.:31:24.

not their first language only will know have no support. I would like

:31:25.:31:28.

him to come to speak to what he just because they are very concerned. I

:31:29.:31:37.

think the honourable lady would be fairly Minister visited the school,

:31:38.:31:41.

rather than myself. If she was so generous as to invade me, I would be

:31:42.:31:47.

collated to visit. I would be delighted to visit and the speaker

:31:48.:31:54.

would be dealt very welcome to join us on a visit. It was very important

:31:55.:32:01.

that we introduced this National Funding Formula. For too long,

:32:02.:32:05.

certain areas have been underfunded. This is what this is designed to

:32:06.:32:11.

tackle. Even under the formula, we are schools would lose in other

:32:12.:32:15.

parts of the country, the no longer do so. The National Funding Formula

:32:16.:32:23.

is needed in Dorset and Poole. They are amongst the 11 worst funded

:32:24.:32:31.

local authorities. The policy should be uncontroversial. Can the Minister

:32:32.:32:36.

as sure is that this policy is on track? We intend to press ahead with

:32:37.:32:41.

the National Funding Formula and it was one of the core principles under

:32:42.:32:49.

pinning how it would work. There is a large element of peer pupil

:32:50.:32:56.

funding. It does a traffic widespread support, but we have made

:32:57.:33:02.

an announcement that no school will lose out on funding. It has been

:33:03.:33:08.

brought in to areas which have been disadvantaged. Will the Minister

:33:09.:33:19.

stop this doublespeak language of an increase in the budget. We know what

:33:20.:33:23.

we are talking about. In real terms, the budget is not increasing for the

:33:24.:33:30.

last seven years. Teachers have had a cut of 3p per hour in the wages in

:33:31.:33:35.

the last seven years. Morale was rock bottom. Will the Minister at

:33:36.:33:40.

least admit that we need urgent action in increasing funding to

:33:41.:33:43.

reverse the cuts which have already taken place? The language is to see

:33:44.:33:53.

that as a cut in funding when there is not one. I have acknowledged that

:33:54.:33:57.

there are funding pressures over the four-year period. We are helping

:33:58.:34:01.

schools to manage these cost pressures. These cost pressures are

:34:02.:34:06.

the because we are having to tackle an historic budget deficit which was

:34:07.:34:13.

inhibited -- which is managing to the author recognisable of jobs. But

:34:14.:34:24.

the funding will increase as pupil numbers continue to increase.

:34:25.:34:31.

Schools have been losing out under this current funding formula for

:34:32.:34:36.

years. Can the Minister confirm that as a result of the changes he is

:34:37.:34:43.

proposing, this unfairness., not only in Basingstoke but throughout

:34:44.:34:46.

Hampshire? I can give that assurance. This is this a sword

:34:47.:34:51.

because the local authorities up and down the country that for more than

:34:52.:34:56.

12 years have suffered from being underfunded. The funding formula is

:34:57.:35:03.

based on out of date data and we are determined to tackle that fearless.

:35:04.:35:07.

We have said no school will lose funding under the new funding

:35:08.:35:14.

formula. This is the total red herring in this debate. Before it

:35:15.:35:20.

has even come in, schools are having to lay off staff, increase staff

:35:21.:35:24.

sizes, cut back on the curriculum and headteachers are struggling to

:35:25.:35:31.

recruit and retain good stuff. When is the Minister going to tell us

:35:32.:35:36.

what he's going to do about the problems already taking place? We

:35:37.:35:44.

believe education is the best economic policy that is. That is why

:35:45.:35:48.

we are improving standards in primary schools, in the curriculum.

:35:49.:35:56.

We have revised and reformed the GCSE implemented in this country so

:35:57.:36:01.

the children leave our schools with an education on a par with the best

:36:02.:36:05.

in the world. We have protected school funding in real terms, but

:36:06.:36:11.

they do acknowledge there are cost pressures over a four-year period.

:36:12.:36:18.

We are helping schools to deal with those pressures, but these are cost

:36:19.:36:23.

pressures been fixed rate across the public sector and the earlier

:36:24.:36:27.

because we have two deal with the economic mess left by the last

:36:28.:36:33.

Labour government. Given that he teachers all over the country wrote

:36:34.:36:38.

to parents seeing the funding would be cut quite dramatically, what will

:36:39.:36:42.

my honourable friend do to make sure that patients receive the good news

:36:43.:36:48.

that there will be no reduction in peer pupil funding? We'll do our

:36:49.:36:51.

best to convey the message no school funding under the new National

:36:52.:37:02.

Funding Formula rule is out. -- will lose out. Pupils at the Kingsway

:37:03.:37:09.

Academy rest yesterday received a text message referring to the

:37:10.:37:15.

Northern schools trust website. When they went there, they were told the

:37:16.:37:23.

school would be closing. We have said it is not financially viable.

:37:24.:37:32.

It's sudden funding we see ?250,000 by call in the local council

:37:33.:37:40.

funding. Is this any way to run a school system? I will look into the

:37:41.:37:46.

case she is freezing. Schools have to consult before any school closes.

:37:47.:37:53.

There is a set process. It is not just about money. The Labour Party

:37:54.:37:57.

think they can just throw money at things and when they did that it did

:37:58.:38:02.

not work. When we were in government, the amount of people

:38:03.:38:10.

taking the core subjects actually fell and hurt. When we came in

:38:11.:38:16.

office in 2010, only one in five took that combination of core

:38:17.:38:24.

academic GCSEs. That is no two in five and we want to see that rising

:38:25.:38:25.

further. Many of my primary schools and all

:38:26.:38:38.

my high schools have told me they are preparing for real-time cuts

:38:39.:38:41.

over the next few years. One school is being faced with closure. How

:38:42.:38:44.

will this help children's mental health in schools. We take mental

:38:45.:38:50.

health in our school system extremely seriously and we will

:38:51.:38:56.

publish a green paper on mental health before the end of the year to

:38:57.:38:59.

make sure all children are taught about mental health risks. As I have

:39:00.:39:05.

said repeatedly in the responses to the surge in question, no school

:39:06.:39:14.

face a funding shortage. He didn't mention standards in school wants.

:39:15.:39:17.

In a county of Nottinghamshire, one of the West funded in the country,

:39:18.:39:21.

standards are rising, and is 90% of my young people now go to good or

:39:22.:39:28.

outstanding skills, 30% higher than 2010. Thousands of young people come

:39:29.:39:35.

out of a city of Nottingham because standards are higher despite less

:39:36.:39:38.

money. Will the government continue to focus relentlessly on standards

:39:39.:39:42.

in education? My honourable friend is absolutely right. Academic

:39:43.:39:49.

standards are key and school standards of behaviour are key in

:39:50.:39:52.

underpinning a rise in academic standards. That's why we have

:39:53.:39:59.

focused on improving the curricula. The government 's current plans mean

:40:00.:40:03.

cuts of over ?600 per head for students in Liverpool schools. Is

:40:04.:40:07.

the minister now saying there will be no cuts at all in real terms from

:40:08.:40:16.

any aspect of government funding? We have said there will be no cut in

:40:17.:40:20.

per-pupil funding as a result of moving to the National fair funding

:40:21.:40:26.

formula. I have acknowledged the cost pressures in her area and other

:40:27.:40:28.

parts of the country. We are having to deal with a budget

:40:29.:40:54.

deficit. It's imperative we deal with the budget deficit if we are to

:40:55.:41:04.

continue to have a strong economy. It will take as many years as it

:41:05.:41:09.

takes to get down to zero. We must now move on. There is extensive

:41:10.:41:13.

interest in this subject but these matters will be treated on

:41:14.:41:16.

subsequent occasions. In a moment I will call Seema Malhotra to make an

:41:17.:41:25.

application to propose a debate on a significant and important matter

:41:26.:41:29.

that should have urgent action on standing order number 24. The

:41:30.:41:33.

honourable member has three minutes to make such an application. Seema

:41:34.:41:39.

Malhotra. I seek leave to propose this house debate a specific and

:41:40.:41:42.

important matter that should have urgent consideration, namely the

:41:43.:41:45.

report on the inspection by Her Majesty's Chief Inspector of prisons

:41:46.:41:49.

of Feltham Young offenders institution. This report, published

:41:50.:41:53.

on June 30, follows an unannounced inspection earlier this year. It

:41:54.:41:58.

reports on both Feltham children and young people and young adults, makes

:41:59.:42:07.

for shocking reading. Both raised numerous concerns, but particularly

:42:08.:42:11.

relating to the matter of safety and educational purposeful activity in

:42:12.:42:15.

each. The report found the prison is extremely unsafe for staff and boys

:42:16.:42:19.

and young people within and has become more dangerous even since the

:42:20.:42:24.

inspections in 2014 and 2015 respectively. The increased violence

:42:25.:42:28.

combined with staffing shortages has meant 15-18 -year-olds are

:42:29.:42:33.

unrestricted regimes which according to the Chief inspector did nothing

:42:34.:42:41.

to contribute to their education, social education or safety. The last

:42:42.:42:47.

inspection in 2015 is marked. The report suggests things have got

:42:48.:42:50.

markedly worse in the last two years and a serious crisis point has now

:42:51.:42:54.

been reached. The youth justice system is there to work to prevent

:42:55.:42:59.

children and young people from under 18 from offending or reoffending.

:43:00.:43:02.

What's happening now is a dereliction of duty. 15-18

:43:03.:43:07.

-year-olds are receiving an average 7.5 hours of education per week.

:43:08.:43:11.

19,000 hours of schooling per year have been lost through nonattendance

:43:12.:43:17.

and cancellation of classes. The regime has been described as quite

:43:18.:43:20.

simply not safe for either staff or boys. Some of the young men are

:43:21.:43:27.

being locked up for 22 hours every day. During the inspection they

:43:28.:43:31.

found a third of prisoners were locked up during the core not

:43:32.:43:36.

receiving training or education. Indeed the media is also reporting

:43:37.:43:41.

today a High Court ruling that a 16-year-old boy's human rights were

:43:42.:43:45.

breached by him being kept in solitary confinement at Feltham

:43:46.:43:48.

Young offenders and that he was unlawfully denied access to

:43:49.:43:50.

education and the ability to mix with other inmates. There is an

:43:51.:43:56.

urgent need responses to these issues from the government and a

:43:57.:43:59.

clear plan to address them, including whether the cuts have now

:44:00.:44:04.

led to an unsafe level of resources, the statutory duty and contracts for

:44:05.:44:08.

the provision of education in prison, staffing levels, staffing

:44:09.:44:12.

recruitment, staff experience and staff retention. Factors

:44:13.:44:14.

contributing to increased violence and whether or not now is the time

:44:15.:44:18.

for an urgent rethink on Feltham's future. Young people were becoming

:44:19.:44:23.

out of the youth justice institutions more traumatised and

:44:24.:44:26.

with reduced life chances than when they went in. This our next

:44:27.:44:31.

generation. We're supposed to be an advanced society. These are

:44:32.:44:34.

children, and their future and welfare should be a matter for

:44:35.:44:38.

urgent debate of this house. I am grateful to the honourable lady, who

:44:39.:44:42.

asks for leave to propose a debate on a specific and important matter

:44:43.:44:52.

that should have urgent, namely the report to the Feltham Young

:44:53.:44:54.

offenders institution. I have listened carefully to the

:44:55.:44:57.

application, but I am not persuaded it should be debated under the terms

:44:58.:45:02.

of standing order number 24. The honourable lady is experienced and

:45:03.:45:05.

versatile member of this house and she should know there are other

:45:06.:45:09.

opportunities to secure attention to the issue. She will know what some

:45:10.:45:13.

of those other opportunities are in both question and debate form. And I

:45:14.:45:22.

have a feeling she will be heading towards the table office before long

:45:23.:45:27.

in order to try one of those other options. We will leave it there for

:45:28.:45:34.

now. Indeed, port of order, Diana Johnson. In the final speeches the

:45:35.:45:40.

former Right Honourable member for league made to the house on

:45:41.:45:44.

contaminated blood, he made a compelling case for the fact there

:45:45.:45:49.

was evidence of criminal acts that had taken place in that contaminated

:45:50.:45:52.

blood scandal. We know it is the biggest treatment disaster in the

:45:53.:46:00.

history of the NHS. According to the front page of the Daily Mail today,

:46:01.:46:05.

they have set out criminal acts that allegedly took place, whether it is

:46:06.:46:10.

now appropriate for the Secretary of State for Health to come to the

:46:11.:46:15.

house and say what he intends to take as The Right Honourable member

:46:16.:46:26.

for Lee -- Leigh, and whether a public enquiry would happen, and if

:46:27.:46:29.

that wouldn't take place then the police would be notified on the

:46:30.:46:31.

evidence the Right Honourable member for Leigh had in his possession. I

:46:32.:46:36.

wonder, Mr Speaker, if you have had any indication from the Secretary of

:46:37.:46:40.

State for Health whether he intends to come to the house to make a

:46:41.:46:44.

statement. I'm grateful to the honourable lady for that point of

:46:45.:46:47.

order. I have seen the Secretary of State for Health a couple of times

:46:48.:46:51.

today, most recently in the chamber and much earlier this morning when I

:46:52.:46:55.

was returning from Mike health giving swim, and he was arriving at

:46:56.:47:01.

the house on his bicycle. We exchanged the courtesies as the

:47:02.:47:06.

honourable lady would expect, saying good morning. The right Honourable

:47:07.:47:09.

gentleman didn't on that occasion give me any indication that he plans

:47:10.:47:14.

to make a statement on this matter, nor has he since done so. I have to

:47:15.:47:18.

admit I was not familiar with the headline the honourable lady refers

:47:19.:47:21.

to. Not least because the organ in question is not part of my daily

:47:22.:47:25.

reading matter, which I'm sure the honourable lady will readily

:47:26.:47:31.

understand, it's not a paper that is ordinarily of interest to me

:47:32.:47:34.

whatsoever. I have to admit the headline is an important one

:47:35.:47:38.

concerning a very important story. I'm not aware of any plans by the

:47:39.:47:42.

government to make a statement, as I have said, but clearly the issue

:47:43.:47:45.

will not go away and I will remember the final intervention of the then

:47:46.:47:49.

right honourable member for Leigh, and very powerful indeed it was. I

:47:50.:47:54.

rather suspect the right honourable lady will return to it, especially

:47:55.:48:00.

especially if she judges it to be urgent and she will know what

:48:01.:48:05.

opportunities of available to her if she thinks it is urgent. Point of

:48:06.:48:12.

order, Mr Paul Blomfield. On the 8th of February, I asked the then

:48:13.:48:16.

Minister for exiting the European Union, the right Honourable member

:48:17.:48:20.

for Clywd West, about allegations it was the jurisdiction of the European

:48:21.:48:29.

Court of Justice to preside over notice of withdrawing from Euroton

:48:30.:48:39.

as well as withdrawal from the EU. It was said it would not be possible

:48:40.:48:46.

to leave the EU and continue current membership of Euroton. This has now

:48:47.:48:50.

been contradicted and it has been said it was in fact the role of the

:48:51.:48:54.

European Court of Justice that lay behind the government 's decision. I

:48:55.:48:57.

wonder whether you can advise me how we can find out the truth behind

:48:58.:49:02.

this matter as to why the government is leading us out of the important

:49:03.:49:08.

treaty on Euroton. I don't think it's for me to seek to penetrate the

:49:09.:49:16.

inner recesses of ministerial minds to ascertain precisely what their

:49:17.:49:20.

motivation is in the pursuit of policy. I think my short answer to

:49:21.:49:24.

the honourable gentleman, when he asks how should he take this matter

:49:25.:49:29.

forward is, by the tabling of questions, which probably needs to

:49:30.:49:36.

be very precise and focused if he is to elicit the information he seeks.

:49:37.:49:42.

That would be my guidance to him. Although I have indulged the

:49:43.:49:45.

honourable gentleman on this occasion, because I couldn't know

:49:46.:49:49.

precisely what he would ask until he asked it, what he has asked,

:49:50.:49:53.

although no doubt of enormous interest and great relevance to him

:49:54.:49:56.

and many others, doesn't constitute a point of order. It's not a

:49:57.:50:01.

responsibility of the chair to advise consistency of statement. Or

:50:02.:50:06.

indeed from persons previously connected with government. If that

:50:07.:50:10.

were one of the responsibilities of the chair, the chair would find it a

:50:11.:50:16.

holy disproportionate amount of his or her time to keep up with matters.

:50:17.:50:21.

He has made his concern clear and no doubt that has been heard on the

:50:22.:50:24.

Treasury bench. If the Minister would he feel he had been inaccurate

:50:25.:50:29.

in statements to the house, that Minister would have responsibility

:50:30.:50:32.

to set the record straight. Point of order, Mr petered out. Regarding

:50:33.:50:39.

estimates of 2017-18. The calling of a general election only two years

:50:40.:50:45.

into a Fixed-term Parliaments Act abuse altered hung parliament and

:50:46.:50:54.

the delay in chairman is of select committee, combined to create an

:50:55.:50:57.

unprecedented situation with regard to scrutiny of public finances.

:50:58.:51:01.

Ministers on their side are deeply concerned the government is asking

:51:02.:51:08.

Parliament to vote on a motion tonight, ?568 billion without

:51:09.:51:10.

debate, avoiding what many of us believed to be proper and correct

:51:11.:51:14.

parliamentary scrutiny of finances. Such scrutineers of particular

:51:15.:51:17.

interest for thousands of public sector workers who are currently

:51:18.:51:21.

receiving mixed messages from the government on pay. Presumably these

:51:22.:51:25.

estimates published today still reflect the public pay cap, and

:51:26.:51:30.

where the money from the Northern Ireland settlement will come from.

:51:31.:51:34.

Mr Speaker, could you as custodian of the house, and its long tradition

:51:35.:51:38.

of transparent scrutiny of government spending since the bill

:51:39.:51:43.

of rights in 1689, although not personally since 1689, advise us as

:51:44.:51:50.

to what course might be taken to find an appropriate consideration of

:51:51.:51:56.

estimate. I appreciate the gentlemen's consideration that I am

:51:57.:51:59.

not that old. So far as the passing reference the gentleman made in his

:52:00.:52:04.

point of order to the election of chairs of select committees is

:52:05.:52:09.

concerned, the house is due to treat that matter today. It may well be I

:52:10.:52:15.

have something to say on that matter today. I concern -- share the

:52:16.:52:20.

concern of the honourable gentleman, and indeed of both sides of the

:52:21.:52:24.

house, that chairs of select committees should be elected sooner

:52:25.:52:27.

rather than later and the committee should be constituted as quickly as

:52:28.:52:31.

possible so they can undertake their important tasks of scrutiny.

:52:32.:52:37.

Parliament, and parliamentarians will always be served by such an

:52:38.:52:41.

approach. I understand his concern the house should be asked to

:52:42.:52:44.

organise the expenditure of large amounts of public money without the

:52:45.:52:48.

opportunity for debate, but I assure him there is nothing underhand or

:52:49.:52:52.

disorderly for this. It's in accordance with the standing orders

:52:53.:52:55.

and the house's agreed estimates procedure. This is not one of those

:52:56.:52:59.

days whether house is invited to debate matters recommended by

:53:00.:53:05.

liaison committee. That said, it's always open to the house to

:53:06.:53:08.

reconsider procedures. I'm aware that the procedure committee has

:53:09.:53:11.

recently published a report on estimates procedure, a report to

:53:12.:53:17.

which a government response is awaited. So there may be opportunity

:53:18.:53:20.

for the house to look at these matters before too long. I hope that

:53:21.:53:26.

is helpful both to the honourable gentleman and indeed to the house.

:53:27.:53:32.

Presentation of Bill, Secretary shad jig Javad.

:53:33.:53:43.

in the second reading, what indeed? Tomorrow. Tomorrow. Thank you.

:53:44.:53:59.

European Union (Approvals) Bill, second reading. To move the bill to

:54:00.:54:11.

be read a second time, I invite the Minister. We want to go for draft

:54:12.:54:20.

decisions granted by the European Union, of rely on article 352. This

:54:21.:54:30.

allows the European Union to take action over the ten year period on

:54:31.:54:36.

issues for which there is no specific power given. This can only

:54:37.:54:43.

be given by the unanimous support of all member states. Parliament must

:54:44.:54:53.

first give its approval. Section eight of the European Union it says

:54:54.:54:58.

minister me vote in favour of an article three tries to decision only

:54:59.:55:04.

if the draft decision is approved by an act of Parliament. I am pleased

:55:05.:55:08.

that members of both houses will have the chance to scrutinise and

:55:09.:55:16.

whether to approve such measures. The United Kingdom is going to leave

:55:17.:55:23.

the European Union and until that is deseeded, really mean a member of

:55:24.:55:28.

the European Union and all the rates and rules of that remain in place.

:55:29.:55:35.

That means exercising the United Kingdom rates at the European Union.

:55:36.:55:41.

It does not matter whether the involve the United Kingdom directly,

:55:42.:55:45.

they could make a difference to the context of negotiations. While we

:55:46.:55:52.

are leaving, we will continue to retain a friendship and alliance

:55:53.:55:55.

with all the European countries. We have been working in partnership

:55:56.:56:00.

with European Union members states for decades to build a prosperous

:56:01.:56:09.

and stable Europe. I will give way. Order! The honourable member was

:56:10.:56:21.

totally convinced it was him. The other member was equally convinced

:56:22.:56:26.

it was him. Please put us out of our misery. I was referring to the

:56:27.:56:39.

honourable member for Bridgwater. I know from government and colleagues

:56:40.:56:43.

across the house, my honourable friend would say that the Council of

:56:44.:56:49.

Europe was still an important body. It continues to play an important

:56:50.:56:56.

part for human rates and low continue to play that important

:56:57.:57:05.

role. I thank my honourable friend form that intervention. I commend

:57:06.:57:09.

him for all his work within the Council of Europe and seek that will

:57:10.:57:17.

continue long after we have successfully concluded our

:57:18.:57:18.

negotiations to leave the European Union. We set out a key important

:57:19.:57:28.

strategy for establishing a new partnership with the European Union.

:57:29.:57:34.

I will make a little progress and then give way. That vision for a

:57:35.:57:39.

partnership is in the best interests in the United Kingdom will mean we

:57:40.:57:45.

also continue to work with the European Union with tackling areas

:57:46.:57:51.

of common interest. I am much encouraged by the Minister but just

:57:52.:58:00.

simply to see we are not brothers and sisters in Europe, but we will

:58:01.:58:05.

be cousins and we will seek to maintain good relations with the

:58:06.:58:10.

European Union despite the fact that we are going to leave. I heartily

:58:11.:58:14.

agree with my honourable friend that we will continue to foster good

:58:15.:58:21.

relations with our European Union friends long after we leave the

:58:22.:58:24.

European Union. Keeping that in mind, we are content at all four

:58:25.:58:32.

decisions that this bill addresses are reasonable, proportionate, in

:58:33.:58:36.

keeping with our best interests and will not result in any additional

:58:37.:58:40.

financial burden on the United Kingdom. As I say, Article 352

:58:41.:58:48.

decisions must be agreed by all the European Union member states. When

:58:49.:58:51.

all member states are in a position to vote on a decision, the European

:58:52.:58:57.

Council will schedule a meeting of Council of the European union can.

:58:58.:59:03.

If member states vote to approve, the European Parliament will be

:59:04.:59:11.

asked to approve the draft decision. If so, decisions they've adopted in

:59:12.:59:15.

two European Union law. All member states apart from the United Kingdom

:59:16.:59:28.

that all states apart from the United Kingdom and Germany have

:59:29.:59:39.

accepted the second article. It has been suggested that as we negotiate

:59:40.:59:45.

our exit from the European Union that the United Kingdom should

:59:46.:59:51.

abstain from decisions in the European Council. Can the minister

:59:52.:59:58.

explain the impact on others abstaining on these decisions? I

:59:59.:00:03.

thank my honourable friend. I can assure him that we're we not to pass

:00:04.:00:11.

this bill this afternoon, then the decisions, the draft decisions,

:00:12.:00:16.

would not be able to proceed. We are still members of the European Union

:00:17.:00:22.

and therefore part of our consent is required for these draft decisions

:00:23.:00:29.

to take effect. I am very grateful. She has been very generous. She

:00:30.:00:33.

indicated one other country of which is yet to ratify this, namely

:00:34.:00:41.

Germany. As she any indication as to when that support may come from

:00:42.:00:49.

Germany? I thank my honourable friend for the intervention. Any

:00:50.:00:56.

such comment would be speculation, which I intend to avoid. I could

:00:57.:01:02.

point out that Germany, like the United Kingdom, do have to have the

:01:03.:01:09.

consent of the national parliament before the ministers can vote on

:01:10.:01:14.

such draft decisions as these. All other member states, apart from

:01:15.:01:23.

Germany and ourselves, have agreed the fundamental rights agency

:01:24.:01:26.

decisions and we do not believe that any of these draft decisions are

:01:27.:01:30.

contentious. The government is committed to being constructive in

:01:31.:01:35.

the native kingdom 's engagement with the unique European Union.

:01:36.:01:41.

Holding up business which is simple and uncontroversial would undermine

:01:42.:01:47.

that approach. It is therefore clearly in the interests of the

:01:48.:01:51.

United Kingdom to approve these draft decisions. The annoying them

:01:52.:01:56.

could have a negative impact on the European Union negotiations for

:01:57.:02:04.

Britain's Brexit. There will of course be further opportunities to

:02:05.:02:07.

examine more fundamental aspects of the work of the European Union in

:02:08.:02:12.

other debates, but I'm sure other members will recognise that whatever

:02:13.:02:18.

the views on our exit from the unique European Union, it is in our

:02:19.:02:21.

interest to approve these draft decisions through. Will the Minister

:02:22.:02:29.

confirm that as part of our ongoing relationship with the European

:02:30.:02:33.

Union, that the provisions of the trade agreement which have been

:02:34.:02:39.

secured with Canada will also be fully implemented in the United

:02:40.:02:42.

Kingdom and that we will continue to play a pivotal role with the

:02:43.:02:49.

European Union and encouraging free trade with Canada? I welcome the

:02:50.:03:00.

intervention. I remember his excellent work when he was he trade

:03:01.:03:04.

representative to Canada. I can assure him that the seat of

:03:05.:03:10.

negotiations concluded between the European Union and Canada will apply

:03:11.:03:18.

to the United Kingdom as long as we are members of the European Union.

:03:19.:03:22.

After that point, it will be up to us to decide the terms of any future

:03:23.:03:29.

trading relationship with Canada,. I will not go any further on that. I

:03:30.:03:37.

want to make progress. I will conclude my remarks on Canada and

:03:38.:03:45.

treat. It is clearly in the interests of the United Kingdom to

:03:46.:03:49.

approve these draft decisions as dealing decisions could have a

:03:50.:03:54.

negative impact as they were seen on our exit negotiations, including

:03:55.:04:00.

discussions on any future framework. There will be further opportunities

:04:01.:04:05.

to examine more fundamental aspects. I will give way. Surely the Minister

:04:06.:04:12.

would confirm that the Canadian trade agreement along with all the

:04:13.:04:22.

others will know apply to us if both the United Kingdom and Canada wish

:04:23.:04:28.

to do so. I accept the first part of what my honourable friend says, but

:04:29.:04:32.

they do not wish to predict the future in terms of what the United

:04:33.:04:37.

Kingdom and Canada will find of importance to discuss in the trade

:04:38.:04:41.

relationship in the years to come. The first two decisions. The first

:04:42.:04:50.

two decisions will enable two countries, Albania and Serbia to be

:04:51.:04:55.

granted observer status in the European Union is fundamental rights

:04:56.:05:00.

agency. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I was not

:05:01.:05:08.

going to raise this, but as her colleagues have done so, point

:05:09.:05:17.

estimate as the United Kingdom given to renegotiating that table steel

:05:18.:05:22.

with Canada? I would remind him of the scope of this bill that we are

:05:23.:05:29.

debating. It really does not include a lot of detailed discussion about

:05:30.:05:35.

our future trade relationship with Canada. The Canadian decision is

:05:36.:05:40.

about competition law and not about trade. The fundamental rights agency

:05:41.:05:47.

was set up to support the European Union institutions and its member

:05:48.:05:51.

states by improving knowledge and awareness of fundamental rights

:05:52.:05:53.

within the European Union with a view to ensuring respect of

:05:54.:05:59.

fundamental rights. They do that through the collection and analysis

:06:00.:06:04.

of information. They can also formulate on for individual topics,

:06:05.:06:13.

either at the request or at the request of European Union

:06:14.:06:16.

institutions. It is about raising the awareness of fundamental rights.

:06:17.:06:23.

European Union accession candidate countries can be given observer

:06:24.:06:29.

status. This allows the agency to collect and analyse fundamental rate

:06:30.:06:32.

data from these countries but does not allow them the right to vote in

:06:33.:06:38.

decisions as part of the management board of the agency. I will give

:06:39.:06:44.

way. How does she see this differing from what the Council of Europe

:06:45.:06:50.

does? The Council of Europe looks after democracy within Europe and

:06:51.:06:59.

Kelly's own the same state takeover activities as the agency does? The

:07:00.:07:04.

goal of the agency is to provide expertise on fundamental rights to

:07:05.:07:09.

the European Union institutions, member states country seeking

:07:10.:07:15.

ascension. The specific tasks of the agency are to analyse and sheer

:07:16.:07:20.

information on fundamental rights within the European Union, to carry

:07:21.:07:23.

out scientific research and surveys on that, to formulate opinions on

:07:24.:07:31.

specific topics, either on its own initiative or those requested by

:07:32.:07:35.

other European Union institutions or to raise awareness of fundamental

:07:36.:07:42.

rights issues within the European Union. Albania was granted candidate

:07:43.:07:49.

status in 2014. The United Kingdom supported that on the condition that

:07:50.:07:54.

Albania redoubled its reform efforts, with particular focus on

:07:55.:08:01.

justice and home affairs, especially tackling organised crime, corruption

:08:02.:08:02.

and illegal migration. UK welcomed Albania's progress in

:08:03.:08:19.

July 20 16. Albanian must now fully implement the reform package as soon

:08:20.:08:21.

as possible so this can underpin other reforms. Serbia was granted EU

:08:22.:08:28.

candidate status in 2012 and accession negotiations were launched

:08:29.:08:33.

in January 30 14th with the first four negotiating chapters opened

:08:34.:08:41.

during 2016. The UK continues to support Serbia on its reform path,

:08:42.:08:44.

including on funding projects in Serbia. I will give way. Witchy

:08:45.:08:54.

comment on whether Serbia's membership of the agency would have

:08:55.:08:58.

any impact on the pursuit of war crimes in Serbia as part of its

:08:59.:09:03.

effort to increase human rights? -- would she comment. I can't comment

:09:04.:09:13.

specifically on the likely impact on the treatment of war crimes in

:09:14.:09:18.

Serbia, a subject about which the Foreign Office is extremely

:09:19.:09:22.

concerned, as I presume is my honourable friend. But I think it

:09:23.:09:28.

can only be a mark of progress for Serbia to be admitted in the way

:09:29.:09:32.

that this decision enables them so to be. I will give way to the

:09:33.:09:42.

honourable gentleman. I can't accept what she says that this is a mark of

:09:43.:09:45.

progress. This sounds like motherhood and apple pie Euro speak,

:09:46.:09:52.

exactly the same words were used during the accession of Croatia, and

:09:53.:09:56.

have Croatia handed over their war criminals? Have they got the rule of

:09:57.:10:04.

law in Croatia yet? All of which was promised. They have one of the

:10:05.:10:08.

longest borders in the EU used for sex trafficking and people

:10:09.:10:13.

trafficking. Why does she believe there will be improvements with

:10:14.:10:18.

Albania and Serbia? To correct the honourable gentleman, I don't think

:10:19.:10:21.

I said I thought there would be improvements, I said I thought it

:10:22.:10:26.

would be a mark of progress. I was trying to limit my enthusiasm to

:10:27.:10:33.

that degree, mindful of what he has said about Croatia. However, I would

:10:34.:10:38.

say that it's early days, and I think we can only go down the path

:10:39.:10:45.

of progress, and the UK continues to support Serbia on its reform path,

:10:46.:10:49.

including through funding projects in Serbia. Serbia has more work to

:10:50.:10:55.

do on anti-discrimination policies, to improve the situation of

:10:56.:11:00.

vulnerable people, and to ensure freedom of expression. Observer

:11:01.:11:03.

status at the fundamental rights agency should help Albania and

:11:04.:11:10.

Serbia to reform in the areas we are discussing. Albania and Serbia

:11:11.:11:13.

should also be allowed to benefit from instances of good practice and

:11:14.:11:16.

evidence from other EU member states in relation to human rights. The

:11:17.:11:21.

government is therefore satisfied of the need to support these two

:11:22.:11:26.

decisions. The third and fourth decisions are necessary to implement

:11:27.:11:31.

a cooperative agreement between the EU and Canada on competition

:11:32.:11:35.

enforcement. The decisions will allow the agreements to be signed

:11:36.:11:38.

and allow conclusion of the agreement after it has been approved

:11:39.:11:43.

by the European Parliament. This competition agreement will replace

:11:44.:11:48.

an existing agreement that has been in place since 1999. It replicates

:11:49.:11:55.

and builds upon the provisions in the earlier agreement by allowing

:11:56.:11:58.

the European Commission and the Canadian competition bureau to

:11:59.:12:05.

exchange evidence obtained during evidence investigations including

:12:06.:12:09.

confidential information and personal data. The existing

:12:10.:12:14.

cooperation agreement with Canada dates from June 19 99. At that time

:12:15.:12:18.

the exchange of evidence between the parties was not regarded as needed.

:12:19.:12:26.

In the meantime the bilateral cooperation between the European

:12:27.:12:30.

Commission and the Canadian competition bureau has become more

:12:31.:12:33.

frequent and deeper as concerns substance. I will give way to the

:12:34.:12:38.

honourable gentleman. The government has already said to the Brexit

:12:39.:12:44.

select committee, which I served on in the last Parliament, that upon

:12:45.:12:47.

withdrawal from the EU we will no longer benefit from the issues she

:12:48.:12:51.

is talking about, particularly information exchange agreements

:12:52.:12:55.

between our competition regulator and the Canadian competition bureau.

:12:56.:13:00.

This ends much of the legislation we are discussing today is rather

:13:01.:13:06.

pointless. Can check Spain at pulling out of global deals, such as

:13:07.:13:13.

we are discussing today, renders it? I have explained the importance of

:13:14.:13:16.

the decision is primarily to support our role as a continuing member of

:13:17.:13:23.

the EU until the negotiations are complete in two years' time. For

:13:24.:13:30.

that long, we will be covered by it. After that date, we will have to see

:13:31.:13:36.

what we agreed during the negotiations. But the existing

:13:37.:13:41.

competition agreement with Canada does not allow confidential

:13:42.:13:43.

information sharing, and The New one does. Returning to that point in a

:13:44.:13:57.

few minutes, it's become more frequent and deeper as concerns

:13:58.:14:02.

substance. The absence of the possibility to exchange information

:14:03.:14:05.

with the Canadian competition authority is regarded as a major

:14:06.:14:10.

impediment to effective cooperation. The proposed changes to the existing

:14:11.:14:13.

agreement will allow the European Commission and the Canadian

:14:14.:14:18.

competition bureau to exchange evidence which both sides have

:14:19.:14:23.

obtained in their investigations. This will in particular be useful in

:14:24.:14:28.

all cases where the alleged anti-competitive behaviour affects

:14:29.:14:33.

transatlantic or world markets. Many worldwide or transatlantic cartels,

:14:34.:14:38.

including Canada and through Canada, the commission will get a good

:14:39.:14:44.

opportunity to provide access to a additional information regarding

:14:45.:14:48.

these cartels. Cooperation with third party competition authorities

:14:49.:14:53.

is now standard practice in international competition

:14:54.:14:55.

investigations. In addition to the agreement with Canada, the EU has

:14:56.:15:00.

concluded dedicated cooperation agreements with the USA, Japan,

:15:01.:15:06.

Korea and Switzerland. If I may return to the intervention by the

:15:07.:15:10.

honourable gentleman, I omitted to say that even after Brexit

:15:11.:15:17.

negotiations have been complete, the competition agreement with Canada

:15:18.:15:19.

will continue to apply to British companies if they are trading with

:15:20.:15:22.

the single market of the European Union. The most advanced agreement

:15:23.:15:30.

is the one with Switzerland, which contains already provisions on the

:15:31.:15:35.

exchange of evidence and the proposed update would bring the

:15:36.:15:37.

agreement with Canada to the same level as the one concluded with

:15:38.:15:41.

Switzerland. I am sure that honourable members will agree that

:15:42.:15:47.

the ability to share information for effective and efficient

:15:48.:15:52.

international competition enforcement is increasingly

:15:53.:15:55.

important. Access to information from other jurisdictions can be

:15:56.:16:01.

important in reaching a robust enforcement decision. Cooperation

:16:02.:16:04.

and information sharing between jurisdictions can help ensure

:16:05.:16:10.

enforcement bodies do not reach different decisions based on

:16:11.:16:14.

different sets of information. The agreement contains general

:16:15.:16:18.

safeguards for the transfer of information and additional

:16:19.:16:20.

safeguards for the transfer of personal data. Personal data can

:16:21.:16:26.

only be shared with the express written consent of the person or

:16:27.:16:32.

company to which it relates. In the absence of consent, personal data

:16:33.:16:38.

can only be shared where both competition authorities are

:16:39.:16:40.

investigating the same related conduct or transaction. Furthermore,

:16:41.:16:46.

the transfer of personal data will be subject to independent oversight.

:16:47.:16:52.

The agreement also contained safeguards for information provided

:16:53.:16:57.

by company under the EU cartel amenity, or leniency programme. This

:16:58.:17:01.

information cannot be shared without the express written consent of the

:17:02.:17:04.

individual or company that provided that information. As I have noted,

:17:05.:17:09.

there are no financial implications for the UK of the decisions. I

:17:10.:17:16.

confirm that I do not consider that any of the bill's provisions

:17:17.:17:21.

interfere with the rights set out in the European Convention on human

:17:22.:17:27.

rights, so no issues arise about the Bill's compatibility with those

:17:28.:17:30.

rights. It is intended the bill will come into force on the day of Royal

:17:31.:17:37.

assent. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I wonder why

:17:38.:17:41.

there is no cost, surely if we are to have an added layer of complexity

:17:42.:17:44.

sharing layer, which might be a good thing to do, there must be a cost to

:17:45.:17:52.

the officials' time in doing that. I am assured there are no costs

:17:53.:17:57.

associated with these decisions. Other than the normal course of

:17:58.:18:02.

government business. It is intended that the bill will come into force

:18:03.:18:06.

on the Dale of Royal assent, and for reasons I have outlined, I commend

:18:07.:18:13.

the bill to the house. The question is the Bill read for a second time.

:18:14.:18:25.

This bill was indeed in the Queen's Speech, in the background notes it

:18:26.:18:30.

talks about it helping Brandt Serbia and Albania observer status at the

:18:31.:18:37.

EU's rights agency, and there will be agreement for enhanced

:18:38.:18:43.

cooperation between competition regulators in the EU and Canada. I

:18:44.:18:46.

can't be the only one somewhat surprised as this Bill being the

:18:47.:18:50.

second bill to be given a second reading in the new parliament. And

:18:51.:18:56.

it was given such a priority, given what might have happened, and what

:18:57.:19:01.

was at one point in the Conservative Party manifesto. Indeed, we could

:19:02.:19:06.

have suggested some alternatives. Addressing the pay cap, as members

:19:07.:19:09.

of the Cabinet are now doing, as members of the Conservative Party

:19:10.:19:14.

are now doing. There seems to be an argument there. Something we could

:19:15.:19:17.

have been debating in the house at this time. Are you aware the Civil

:19:18.:19:22.

War in Yugoslavia was an horrific and scarring experience for our

:19:23.:19:26.

whole continent. We shouldn't belittle it by underestimating the

:19:27.:19:29.

importance of those nations getting up to our level in terms of human

:19:30.:19:33.

rights and so on. He's absolutely right, which is why it was in the

:19:34.:19:37.

Queen's Speech. I was just questioning why it was given such

:19:38.:19:41.

high prominence and put forward as the second piece of legislation,

:19:42.:19:47.

given that it is only two lines. Why wasn't something more weighty put

:19:48.:19:52.

forward first? I mentioned the pay cap and the turmoil in the

:19:53.:19:57.

Conservative Party, the agonising going on about whether public

:19:58.:20:00.

servants should be given a pay rise or not. The debate over tuition

:20:01.:20:05.

fees. Whether there should be more police and firefighters. I will give

:20:06.:20:13.

way again. I fear he may be being a little bit churlish. He has the

:20:14.:20:17.

opportunity now to set out what the Labour Party's position is in

:20:18.:20:21.

relation to this Bill. Of course he is entitled, so long as the speaker

:20:22.:20:26.

allows him to do so, about what should have been debated at this

:20:27.:20:30.

time. He has the opportunity to debate this subject now, so what

:20:31.:20:34.

does he have to say about it? I'm grateful for the honourable

:20:35.:20:37.

gentleman's enquiry just now. I could not know what the honourable

:20:38.:20:41.

gentleman could say until he has said it, but now that he has said it

:20:42.:20:44.

is, I could tell him he shouldn't have said it. It would be advisable

:20:45.:20:50.

now for the honourable gentleman to return to the subject matter of the

:20:51.:20:58.

European Union approvals Bill, and may I gently remind the honourable

:20:59.:21:02.

gentleman, quite a seasoned parliament Eric, consists of two

:21:03.:21:05.

clauses, and I say this not least for the benefit of those attending

:21:06.:21:10.

to proceedings elsewhere, the second is extent, commencement and short

:21:11.:21:15.

title. The only substantive clause is cause number one. The question of

:21:16.:21:19.

the pay cap is a matter of enormous interest, but it's wholly irrelevant

:21:20.:21:29.

as to the question of the Republic of Albania and Republic of Serbia,

:21:30.:21:36.

the European agency Court of fundamental rights, and Canada with

:21:37.:21:41.

respect of competition law. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. You may

:21:42.:21:49.

even have stolen parts of my speech with what you just read out. We do

:21:50.:21:56.

have the European Union approvals Bill. The second course of which is

:21:57.:22:02.

the name of the bill. Labour will not be opposing the EU approvals

:22:03.:22:10.

Bill at this stage. Members will be pleased to learn that. We are

:22:11.:22:16.

committed on this site to ensuring the United Kingdom fulfils its

:22:17.:22:20.

responsibilities as a member of state of the EU, not least in the

:22:21.:22:25.

very important matter of the progress being made by the former

:22:26.:22:32.

member states of Yugoslavia. We will do so until the time of withdrawal

:22:33.:22:37.

from the European Union, and we will continue to scrutinise European

:22:38.:22:40.

Union matters that come before Parliament.

:22:41.:22:47.

It addresses draft decisions to the Council of the European Union. The

:22:48.:22:52.

first relates to the participation of the republics of Albania and

:22:53.:22:58.

Serbia, as it serves in the EU for fundamental rights, and the signing

:22:59.:23:01.

of a conclusion of the agreement between the EU and government of

:23:02.:23:05.

Canada regarding the application of competition laws and includes the

:23:06.:23:10.

exchange of information between the EU and Canadian competition bureau.

:23:11.:23:14.

Returning first to the involvement of Serbia and Albania in the

:23:15.:23:19.

fundamental rights agency. The fundamental rights agency replaced

:23:20.:23:23.

the European monitoring Centre of racism and xenophobia in 2007. As

:23:24.:23:29.

set out on the year report website, it advises EU institutions and

:23:30.:23:35.

national governments, especially in the areas of discrimination, access

:23:36.:23:42.

to justice, racism and xenophobia -- Europa. Data protection Acts and

:23:43.:23:46.

children's rights. Areas of work are determined through a five-year

:23:47.:23:50.

framework and main priority areas including the fighting of racism and

:23:51.:23:55.

xenophobia, and related intolerance. EU candidate countries can

:23:56.:24:01.

participate in the fundamental rights agency as observers. The bill

:24:02.:24:06.

proofs two draft decisions on the participation of the Republic of

:24:07.:24:12.

Albania and Serbia in observers of the fundamental rights agency. The

:24:13.:24:17.

decision will not confirm observers status through Albania and Serbia

:24:18.:24:23.

but association councils, Albania and Serbia can determine in this

:24:24.:24:33.

becoming observers. Under the draft Council decisions, Albania and

:24:34.:24:37.

Serbia would both appoint an observer and ultimate observer in

:24:38.:24:40.

the work of the agency 's management board, on an equal footing with the

:24:41.:24:44.

member and alternate members appointed by EU member states, but

:24:45.:24:49.

without the right to vote. They would also participate in

:24:50.:24:53.

initiatives undertaken by the agency and make a financial contribution to

:24:54.:25:03.

yet. In an explanatory memoranda in March 2016, the honourable member

:25:04.:25:08.

for each and Walton, who was then, and is now, a minister in the

:25:09.:25:12.

Justice Department, said the government supports Albania and

:25:13.:25:17.

Serbia becoming a member, agreeing that it would UK subject firm but

:25:18.:25:26.

fair conditionality. Albania and Serbia will make a contribution to

:25:27.:25:31.

the EU budget, in order to participate, ranging between 160,000

:25:32.:25:37.

to 183,000 euros per year. The draft decisions have been cleared out the

:25:38.:25:41.

European Scrutiny Committee and the Lords Europe select committee. As

:25:42.:25:47.

the minister said in her remarks, this is an opportunity for us to

:25:48.:25:52.

support the progress being made in human rights, in the two countries

:25:53.:25:55.

in question. I completely agree with what she said on that point. I give

:25:56.:26:04.

way. I see the member for served on those, that both the Labour Party

:26:05.:26:08.

works with the Council of Europe with Albania and with the Balkans to

:26:09.:26:12.

make sure that they are monitored and understood. It's an enormous

:26:13.:26:16.

amount of work by this place, with parliament roads across Europe, to

:26:17.:26:22.

continue the work you talk about. I commend the member, he will actually

:26:23.:26:26.

give praise. There are in peace here doing the work already. He's

:26:27.:26:30.

absolutely right to make that point, I thank him and join him in praising

:26:31.:26:37.

colleagues across the house, for their work on these very important

:26:38.:26:43.

matters. But, I have a particular question for the Minister, which did

:26:44.:26:46.

come up in some interventions, which is what would be the nature of our

:26:47.:26:53.

involvement in the agency? A similar question would apply to a number of

:26:54.:26:59.

agencies. Both immediately after Brexit, how does she envisage the

:27:00.:27:06.

transitional arrangements being handled? And, what she sees as the

:27:07.:27:11.

longer-term arrangements for our involvement in this and similar

:27:12.:27:14.

agencies. That is something she could come back to in her wind-up?

:27:15.:27:21.

Turning to the agreement between the EU and Canada on competition, there

:27:22.:27:25.

is already an agreement between the EU and Canada in competition

:27:26.:27:30.

matters. It extends powers to both sides, so they can exchange evidence

:27:31.:27:33.

that they've collected in the course of their investigations. The

:27:34.:27:39.

honourable gentleman give way? I'm grateful for the honourable

:27:40.:27:43.

gentleman for giving way. I just want him to repeat his question in a

:27:44.:27:48.

little more detail, my understanding of the fundamental rights agency is

:27:49.:27:53.

there to help interpret and work on community law and member states. If

:27:54.:27:58.

we left the EU it would no longer be relevant in that context to the UK

:27:59.:28:05.

and itself? Yes, I had moved on to the second part but I will come back

:28:06.:28:10.

to what he said. I think we need to know what our relationship would be,

:28:11.:28:16.

as his honourable friend just said, were carried out by members of the

:28:17.:28:21.

house, over many years, has been extremely important in making

:28:22.:28:27.

progress in both countries named in this piece of legislation. And

:28:28.:28:35.

elsewhere. It's important we have a sense from government of how we

:28:36.:28:41.

would stay involved in the work of agencies, including this one,

:28:42.:28:47.

because I think this country, all members would agree, this country

:28:48.:28:51.

has a very important role to play, in the EU or not. Does the

:28:52.:28:56.

honourable gentleman agree with me that when it comes to human rights

:28:57.:29:01.

in this country, and indeed across Europe, a key part of human rights

:29:02.:29:06.

is the European Convention of human rights, unaffected by this. That

:29:07.:29:09.

must remain the key and most important element. I completely

:29:10.:29:18.

agree. I will move onto the EU and Canada relationships. The EU

:29:19.:29:23.

Commission cites that the absence of a power to exchange information with

:29:24.:29:26.

the Canadian competition authority is now in danger becoming an

:29:27.:29:31.

impediment, as cooperation between the two parties has increased. The

:29:32.:29:36.

Minister made that point. Cooperation with other competition

:29:37.:29:41.

authorities is standard practice in international competition

:29:42.:29:47.

investigations. The EU has cooperation agreements with the

:29:48.:29:51.

United States, Japan and Korea, the most advanced being with

:29:52.:29:55.

Switzerland, similar to the Canada agreement, and has proved, as the

:29:56.:30:00.

minister said, uncontroversial. Many worldwide or transatlantic cartels

:30:01.:30:10.

include Canada in their operations, and the Canadian commission will

:30:11.:30:18.

have a good opportunity via this agreement to gain additional

:30:19.:30:21.

information concerning those cartels, and whether practice is

:30:22.:30:28.

anti-competitive or not. I thank the honourable member for giving way,

:30:29.:30:31.

does the member except that this serves as an interesting template

:30:32.:30:36.

for how we take forward competitive activities after Brexit? It may

:30:37.:30:43.

serve for other members of the British Commonwealth, to look at how

:30:44.:30:50.

we pattern that relationship? I think that is a good point. I will

:30:51.:30:56.

come later to further questions on the arrangements after we leave the

:30:57.:31:02.

EU, so we can continue to benefit from these kinds of arrangements

:31:03.:31:08.

that are set out in this section of the bill. We need to ensure that

:31:09.:31:15.

arrangements are in place to address anti-competitive practice Raw in

:31:16.:31:21.

this country, and where it affects interests across the world. --

:31:22.:31:27.

practices in this country. That's a point, that the Minister can come

:31:28.:31:34.

back to in her wind-up. I appreciate your indulgence. The issue of

:31:35.:31:39.

setting a pattern is how it should be done, do you agree it impacts

:31:40.:31:43.

greatly on our nearest neighbour, the Republic of Ireland? If we get

:31:44.:31:47.

the relationship right between ourselves and Canada, getting it

:31:48.:31:50.

right with the Republic of Ireland will help to bolster our trade? I

:31:51.:31:59.

think we are potentially in danger of wandering away from the subject!

:32:00.:32:07.

I have no idea why members opposite find that funny, but there we are.

:32:08.:32:12.

Obviously, the DUP are particularly exercised on that, among other

:32:13.:32:16.

points. I dare say that is something for the Minister to pick up and for

:32:17.:32:21.

another day... He will be particularly concerned by it.

:32:22.:32:26.

Competition delivers benefits to consumers, to businesses, and to

:32:27.:32:31.

society as a whole. Therefore, competition policy contributes to

:32:32.:32:35.

contributing in jobs, investment and growth. By enforcing competition

:32:36.:32:41.

rules, sanctioning, breeches and promoting a competition culture

:32:42.:32:43.

internationally, the proposed agreement will improve

:32:44.:32:50.

administrative competition and the Canadian competition bureau.

:32:51.:32:54.

Ultimately, consumers in the EU and in Canada benefit from competition

:32:55.:32:59.

policy and sanctions which contribute to stronger deterrents of

:33:00.:33:04.

anti-competitive behaviour. More effective competition enforcement

:33:05.:33:07.

results in more open and competitive markets, where companies compete

:33:08.:33:10.

more freely enabling them to generate wealth and jobs. It is a

:33:11.:33:18.

better choice of products at low prices. This agreement has been

:33:19.:33:24.

similar to that in place since June 1999, with additional improvements

:33:25.:33:30.

on the exchange of information. Even after we have left the EU, UK

:33:31.:33:35.

companies operating in the EU will be subject to the jurisdiction of

:33:36.:33:46.

the European Court in anti-trust investigations, as all non-EU

:33:47.:33:51.

countries are. Information on United Kingdom companies will still be

:33:52.:33:58.

transferable after Brexit, however, after Brexit, the European

:33:59.:34:01.

Commission will still share information about the UK companies

:34:02.:34:06.

with Canada, that will not be bounced to share the information

:34:07.:34:10.

received from Canada about the UK with the UK. -- will not be bound.

:34:11.:34:18.

This agreement relates to administrative cooperation between

:34:19.:34:23.

the EU Commission and Canadian competition bureau, so public

:34:24.:34:26.

consultation and an impact assessment was not considered

:34:27.:34:29.

necessary by the government, and as the Minister has said on a number of

:34:30.:34:34.

occasions, she does not think there are financial implications. The

:34:35.:34:37.

government noted in its explanatory memorandum that this agreement will

:34:38.:34:44.

have no impact on UK law, or financial implications. The European

:34:45.:34:46.

Scrutiny Committee did not at first clear the proposals, and the chair

:34:47.:34:51.

of the committee, who I dare say is going to make a contribution to this

:34:52.:34:55.

debate, requested further information about whether in and in

:34:56.:35:02.

what way the UK could participate in an agreement following withdrawal.

:35:03.:35:06.

The minister responded to the committee on the 24th of October,

:35:07.:35:10.

stating that the government will ensure that the UK is the

:35:11.:35:15.

strongest... In the strongest possible position to cooperate on

:35:16.:35:21.

competition matters with international partners. There are a

:35:22.:35:25.

number of options for securing the means of international cooperation

:35:26.:35:28.

as any cooperation agreement depends on negotiation with the EU, and

:35:29.:35:32.

negotiations with any other countries like Canada. It is too

:35:33.:35:38.

early to say what exact form the international cooperation will take.

:35:39.:35:44.

I think that does raise a number of questions about transition

:35:45.:35:48.

arrangements in the longer term. In response to that letter, the

:35:49.:35:53.

documents and those subsequently cleared by the committee, that

:35:54.:35:56.

brings us to the arrangements and what they will be after we leave the

:35:57.:36:04.

EU. She mentioned in her letter about seeking to extend current

:36:05.:36:08.

arrangements, so I would ask her if she could indicate how long she

:36:09.:36:16.

thinks that would be necessary? And what guarantee she feels that will

:36:17.:36:22.

give us? If it is possible to extend existing arrangements. United

:36:23.:36:25.

Kingdom companies operating in the EU will be covered by this

:36:26.:36:29.

agreement, the difference will be that the European Commission will

:36:30.:36:34.

continue to share information with Canada about UK companies but that

:36:35.:36:37.

will not be shared with the UK unless a further agreement is

:36:38.:36:42.

reached. She said in her letter that any cooperation agreement will

:36:43.:36:45.

depend on negotiations. How long does she think those negotiations

:36:46.:36:54.

are likely to take? What will she be seeking to achieve as a result of

:36:55.:36:57.

those negotiations? I think that we are at the point where we need

:36:58.:37:01.

government ministers to begin to answer some questions about

:37:02.:37:04.

transition arrangements and longer term on this matter and many others.

:37:05.:37:08.

There's no doubt that competition is vital to the economy, and the

:37:09.:37:14.

success of our businesses and prosperity of the people of our

:37:15.:37:17.

country. Encouraging healthy competition is vital, the role of

:37:18.:37:21.

national government and international cooperation is to

:37:22.:37:25.

create a fair market, not only a free one. To avoid anti-competitive

:37:26.:37:30.

practices, whether preventing the creation of cartels through mergers

:37:31.:37:35.

and acquisitions, or preventing undercutting exploitation of workers

:37:36.:37:39.

in smaller businesses, the use zero hours contracts were workers have

:37:40.:37:44.

little choice, the banks who only found those with liquid assets, the

:37:45.:37:48.

delays payment of invoices by larger firms, they are all examples of

:37:49.:37:56.

anti-competitive practices and exploitative practices, they are all

:37:57.:38:00.

examples where government nationally and internationally should be

:38:01.:38:05.

looking at ways of intervening. Playing its part in setting a level

:38:06.:38:09.

playing field. And being a partner to business and the workforce as

:38:10.:38:12.

well. Government should be encouraging

:38:13.:38:21.

those wishing to start to grow a business. It should be investing,

:38:22.:38:26.

have the right strategy for infrastructure and skills. And an

:38:27.:38:29.

industrial strategy. But underpinning that is the approach to

:38:30.:38:35.

competition, and I think that's what this bill is all about. We need the

:38:36.:38:40.

questions answered about what happens after we leave the EU and

:38:41.:38:48.

those arrangements. The nature of the points made by the Minister in

:38:49.:38:52.

her letter to the European scrutiny committee are very important. They

:38:53.:38:58.

show just how complex some of these questions are. I think it's time we

:38:59.:39:05.

started to get some answers to those questions. I'm following his speech

:39:06.:39:13.

very closely. He has now mentioned the European scrutiny for the second

:39:14.:39:18.

time, I think. Would he join me in calling for that committee to be

:39:19.:39:22.

reconstituted as quickly as possible, because doesn't it

:39:23.:39:25.

demonstrate the important work that committee does, and it should get

:39:26.:39:30.

going straightaway? I don't know if he was in the chamber before the

:39:31.:39:34.

debate started, but my honourable friend the number for Bootle made an

:39:35.:39:41.

impassioned plea to Mr Speaker for just this to happen, and for select

:39:42.:39:48.

committees to reconvene as soon as possible. So I agree with him. On

:39:49.:39:54.

this side of the referendum result, we accept we are leaving the

:39:55.:39:59.

European Union, but we need to make sure we are negotiating strong

:40:00.:40:02.

transitional arrangements and there is no cliff edge for the economy. We

:40:03.:40:08.

need to put a much greater priority than we have seen from the

:40:09.:40:11.

government so far on retaining the benefits of the single market and

:40:12.:40:15.

Customs union. We shouldn't accept watering down of workers' rights,

:40:16.:40:20.

and environmental standards, as a result of Brexit. We will seek

:40:21.:40:23.

significant improvements to the repeal bill to ensure there is

:40:24.:40:30.

proper oversight for this use of new powers and no drop in EU rights and

:40:31.:40:34.

protections. And in that context, I think what we have been discussing

:40:35.:40:41.

this afternoon is really important. As the minister said, to paraphrase,

:40:42.:40:49.

we will seek, on this side anyway, a strong at collaborative new

:40:50.:40:54.

relationship with the EU, not as members, but as partners. On this

:40:55.:41:00.

site we will seek to remain a member of common agencies that benefit the

:41:01.:41:06.

UK, such as Eurojust, and I would add to that arrangements we are

:41:07.:41:11.

discussing today, perhaps. We have to get this right. We are not in a

:41:12.:41:16.

strong position as we enter negotiations. I want to see the

:41:17.:41:20.

Prime Minister change her approach. She must drop the no deal as a

:41:21.:41:25.

viable option, but a stronger emphasis on jobs, the economy and

:41:26.:41:29.

retaining the benefits of the single market and the customs union, and

:41:30.:41:33.

bring parliament back, as we have seen today, into the Brexit process.

:41:34.:41:36.

The fact we are debating this bill shows we must retain the benefits of

:41:37.:41:42.

cooperation we currently have with the EU and relationships we

:41:43.:41:45.

currently have. I said at the start this Bill was only of four draft

:41:46.:41:49.

decisions, but it's indicative of what is to come as we address the

:41:50.:41:53.

challenges of Brexit, and as far as this bill goes, the Minister really

:41:54.:41:56.

does need to answer the questions about transitional arrangements and

:41:57.:42:01.

negotiations so we can continue to share information that benefit our

:42:02.:42:04.

economy and the people of this country. As has already been

:42:05.:42:14.

mentioned, the European scrutiny committee, of which I was chairman

:42:15.:42:19.

for six years, has actually cleared these documents, and we did have

:42:20.:42:25.

some reservations about one aspect of them, which was the fact that we

:42:26.:42:30.

wanted to know how all of this would work out in terms of the Brexit

:42:31.:42:37.

negotiations after we had left the European Union. But basically, there

:42:38.:42:44.

is a necessity for this bill, because as the minister pointed out,

:42:45.:42:48.

although we are leaving the EU, nonetheless we are still, under

:42:49.:42:55.

sections two and three of the European Communities Act 1972, still

:42:56.:42:59.

within the framework of the requirements to comply with EU

:43:00.:43:02.

rights and obligations until Brexit takes effect. There are some who are

:43:03.:43:09.

hoping that somehow or other, all this will be kicked into the long

:43:10.:43:13.

grass and we will have arrangements that take us into a world of

:43:14.:43:20.

never-never land, and it will all somehow disappear. I think there are

:43:21.:43:25.

those in the House of Lords who might take that view, and there may

:43:26.:43:28.

be some in the House of Commons. Although I was extremely glad to

:43:29.:43:34.

note that on the issue of certain matters, particularly the single

:43:35.:43:37.

market and Customs union, the decision that was taken on the

:43:38.:43:42.

Queen's Speech made it clear, and subsequent events seem to have

:43:43.:43:49.

confirmed that, that the Labour Party, the opposition, have actually

:43:50.:43:54.

become extremely realistic about the single market and all that goes with

:43:55.:43:58.

it. These sorts of arrangements are implicit in the Brexit negotiations

:43:59.:44:06.

and the Brexit outcome. Returning to the issue of Albania and Serbia,

:44:07.:44:12.

yes, certainly the builders have to to provide Parliamentary approval of

:44:13.:44:20.

these decisions, and European scrutiny committee had no

:44:21.:44:23.

reservation or concern after they had heard from the minister

:44:24.:44:26.

concerned, perhaps the same minister, I am glad to say, who

:44:27.:44:34.

wrote me a letter back last year. There is an important issue here,

:44:35.:44:38.

however, and that is Albania and Serbia are not by definition

:44:39.:44:45.

countries who are likely to become candidates during the period of our

:44:46.:44:52.

own process of negotiation of exit. Mr Juncker himself has said he

:44:53.:44:58.

doesn't think there will be any enlargement until after we have left

:44:59.:45:02.

the European Union, and therefore, to that extent, it will not impinge

:45:03.:45:08.

upon us, and we don't have to take a position specifically on Albania and

:45:09.:45:14.

Serbia in terms of their candidature. I would say with

:45:15.:45:17.

reference to this particular document, which makes a lot of

:45:18.:45:21.

reference to the fundamental rights agency, one thing that hasn't been

:45:22.:45:26.

mentioned in this debate is the Charter of fundamental rights, and

:45:27.:45:30.

that is embedded in the Lisbon Treaty arrangements. It's a matter

:45:31.:45:35.

of law. Although I strongly resisted our being drawn into it, we have a

:45:36.:45:45.

European scrutiny committee enquiry asking how Lord Goldsmith and his

:45:46.:45:52.

negotiations had failed so dramatically, that we thought we

:45:53.:45:56.

were not going to be members of the Charter of fundamental rights, but

:45:57.:46:02.

we ended up being in that framework. The question of the fundamental

:46:03.:46:10.

rights agency, which itself deals with promoting dialogue with civil

:46:11.:46:14.

society in order to raise public awareness of fundamental rights,

:46:15.:46:17.

which would be part and parcel of the functions which will be carried

:46:18.:46:22.

through by virtue of this bill in respect of Serbia and Albania, does

:46:23.:46:27.

have something of a vacuum in it, because we will not be part of the

:46:28.:46:31.

Charter of fundamental rights after we have left, but we are for the

:46:32.:46:35.

time being. To that extent, there is a kind of problem which I'm not

:46:36.:46:40.

going to invite the Minister to enlarge upon, I hope she is glad to

:46:41.:46:44.

know. But I want to put it on the record that the Charter of

:46:45.:46:47.

fundamental rights should never have applied to others in the first

:46:48.:46:51.

place. It was a botched job by the then the Labour Party in government.

:46:52.:46:56.

We are now saddled with the fact that we are in it, but fortunately

:46:57.:47:01.

as a result of Brexit we will be coming out of it. However, the

:47:02.:47:09.

agency has come as part of its role, a fight against racism, xenophobia

:47:10.:47:13.

and intolerance, all of which I'm sure we would agree with as a matter

:47:14.:47:19.

of principle. I think the involvement of Albania and Serbia in

:47:20.:47:24.

this process will enable an element of self education to take place.

:47:25.:47:27.

That's really the object of it, so that they can become more aware than

:47:28.:47:33.

they previously have been. Because, take Serbia. I have been in this

:47:34.:47:37.

house long enough to be here at the time of Sarajevo and all that went

:47:38.:47:43.

with it, the loss of itch, -- the loss of itch -- Milosevic. These

:47:44.:47:57.

were horrible people. The reality is, the breaches of the rights of

:47:58.:48:02.

these people in Serbia were so horrific that it is still living

:48:03.:48:06.

with us to this day. I think it would be very important for these

:48:07.:48:14.

two countries, Albania and Serbia, to be incorporated and absorbed into

:48:15.:48:19.

the processes by which fundamental rights are looked at. I don't like

:48:20.:48:25.

the Charter of fundamental rights, not because I'm against human

:48:26.:48:29.

rights, but actually because I don't like the idea that some of the

:48:30.:48:32.

adjudication that do take place. That's not to say that it isn't

:48:33.:48:36.

important that these two countries should be involved in that process.

:48:37.:48:41.

So I don't really have any reason, any more than the committee of which

:48:42.:48:48.

I was chairman at the time this was decided. We originally asked for

:48:49.:48:55.

some information and further comment from the minister. We got it, and we

:48:56.:48:59.

were satisfied and cleared the documents. Indeed, the documents

:49:00.:49:05.

were also cleared by our counterpart in the House of Lords and so on. I

:49:06.:49:12.

simply want to say on that subject that I believe what the Minister has

:49:13.:49:20.

said is fair, and I wouldn't want in anyway to stand in the way of the

:49:21.:49:26.

approval of this bill. I ought to say, just with reference to the

:49:27.:49:30.

question of the accession process which I referred to earlier, it does

:49:31.:49:35.

take quite a long time for these two countries to become members of the

:49:36.:49:38.

European Union. They will come in after we have left. And there is a

:49:39.:49:45.

resolution of the European Parliament on Brexit which calls for

:49:46.:49:51.

the transition period to be no longer than three years. The

:49:52.:49:55.

commission's negotiating guidelines for Brexit talks state that any

:49:56.:50:00.

transition must be limited in time. I will just leave that on the

:50:01.:50:05.

record, because some people seem to have got this idea that transition

:50:06.:50:12.

is an everlasting journey. Well, it's not. We are leaving, and that's

:50:13.:50:18.

that. And by the time Albania and Serbia become members of the

:50:19.:50:22.

European Union, if they do, we will be out. That'll be a good thing for

:50:23.:50:27.

the United Kingdom. I ought to add that the Minister for Justice, on

:50:28.:50:35.

the 22nd of March 2016, which you will note before the referendum took

:50:36.:50:42.

place, stated that we were committed to engaging constructively with the

:50:43.:50:45.

EU and we supported enlargement of the EU to the rest of the Balkans,

:50:46.:50:52.

subject to what he described as fair and firm conditionality. He made

:50:53.:50:59.

much the same comment as I have just made with regard to self education,

:51:00.:51:04.

saying that participation will assist both country's accession to

:51:05.:51:10.

the EU. He also confirmed at that time that proposals would only move

:51:11.:51:15.

forward once all the other member states had completed constitutional

:51:16.:51:17.

requirements, which we are doing here. My honourable friend, the

:51:18.:51:26.

member for West Dorset and North Poole raised the question of

:51:27.:51:31.

Germany. They too have to have Parliamentary approval, and as far

:51:32.:51:34.

as I am aware that will be forthcoming. They have an interest

:51:35.:51:42.

in a continuation of the EU in a way we do not. Turning to the EU Canada

:51:43.:51:48.

competition and cooperation enforcement, this was again approved

:51:49.:51:52.

and cleared by the European scrutiny committee. I declare an interest as

:51:53.:52:00.

somebody who served on that committee in the last parliament. As

:52:01.:52:03.

my honourable friend received any assurances as to when the committee

:52:04.:52:07.

will be reconstituted, and will he agree with me that it is absolutely

:52:08.:52:12.

necessary that is a matter of urgency that committee is

:52:13.:52:12.

reconstituted? I'm glad to respond, we have been

:52:13.:52:23.

engaged on the subject, when the house was dissolved for the general

:52:24.:52:28.

election, to write to the Chief Whip, and to ask him to be sure that

:52:29.:52:36.

we did get the committee reconstituted. Immediately after the

:52:37.:52:41.

election, because the last time, in 2015, the whole process went on

:52:42.:52:46.

until I think it was November. By which time, we had a monument of

:52:47.:52:52.

documents, and of course, in the meantime, many things are now being

:52:53.:52:59.

decided in the European institutions. Many are directly

:53:00.:53:07.

relevant to Brexit negotiations, so it is incredibly important that they

:53:08.:53:10.

should have the opportunity to assess the sorts of things which are

:53:11.:53:14.

being decided, subject to clearing these documents. As honourable

:53:15.:53:21.

members may know, some do, so don't, I have to say. If we impose a

:53:22.:53:26.

scrutiny reserve on the document, it's important enough to be debated,

:53:27.:53:30.

and Council ministers cannot conclude consideration of those

:53:31.:53:33.

matters and the government cannot make a decision to carry the matter

:53:34.:53:42.

through, until that debate has taken place. When you have a whole pile of

:53:43.:53:46.

documents, I understand it was something in the order of 200 at the

:53:47.:53:52.

moment, that are in the pipeline, with the memoranda that go with

:53:53.:53:55.

them, explaining the government position, that would be highly

:53:56.:54:00.

interesting in terms of the position the government is adopting, with

:54:01.:54:04.

regard to negotiation positions on those documents. What my honourable

:54:05.:54:10.

friend rightly raises is the question of getting on with this

:54:11.:54:14.

job, and I'm given to understand, without committing anybody to

:54:15.:54:19.

anything, that they are taking steps to accelerate the process because it

:54:20.:54:23.

is so important, and later this afternoon we will be discussing

:54:24.:54:26.

other select committees which will have their schedules shorted

:54:27.:54:33.

agricultural to it and -- their schedules sorted, and the leadership

:54:34.:54:40.

of those committees will be decided upon. I understand they have been

:54:41.:54:44.

subject to discussion between the usual channels. I'm not expected

:54:45.:54:53.

expecting it to be terribly controversial but we need to get

:54:54.:54:58.

ahead with it, if I can turn to the question of the Canada agreement. To

:54:59.:55:04.

say that I entirely endorse what the minister said about this, again,

:55:05.:55:13.

this matter was the subject of discussion within the European

:55:14.:55:17.

Scrutiny Committee, and we agreed that we would let it go ahead, and I

:55:18.:55:33.

will say, however, that explanatory notes on the bill are regarding the

:55:34.:55:38.

EU after Brexit, that is the bit we need to be most concerned about at

:55:39.:55:46.

the moment. What business indicate is following the UK exit from the

:55:47.:55:52.

EU, UK companies operating within the EU will still be subject to the

:55:53.:55:57.

jurisdiction of the European Commission in entering trust

:55:58.:56:01.

negotiations, and where thresholds are met, in merger investigations

:56:02.:56:05.

and in the same way as other non-EU companies operating with the EU,

:56:06.:56:09.

information relating to EU companies based in the EU would still be

:56:10.:56:12.

transferable under the new agreement. This is becoming a bit of

:56:13.:56:21.

a hot potato. We had at the other day, I made a representation to the

:56:22.:56:29.

Prime Minister on citizens writes, we had questions on city regulation

:56:30.:56:34.

and here we are having it coming up again. I think some people are

:56:35.:56:38.

making too much of this, trying to make out that somehow or another,

:56:39.:56:45.

there's an enormous amount emerging on programmes were sometimes we find

:56:46.:56:49.

ourselves listening and perhaps we should switch off! The real problem

:56:50.:56:56.

here is that we've got to say in the European Court of Justice -- got to

:56:57.:57:01.

stay. This is complete rubbish, we do not have to stay. But far more

:57:02.:57:07.

than that, we are not can to stay in the European Court of Justice. The

:57:08.:57:11.

reason is, we will be repealing sections two and three of the

:57:12.:57:17.

European Communities Act 1972, and I know the Labour Party and the

:57:18.:57:20.

opposition have been quite clear that we will not stay in the single

:57:21.:57:23.

market with the customs union and that raises some of the biggest

:57:24.:57:28.

issues relating to the European Court of Justice. Frankly, what

:57:29.:57:33.

we've got to do is come up with some sensible arrangements, without, as I

:57:34.:57:43.

said in the house the other day, without prejudice to regaining our

:57:44.:57:46.

judicial sovereignty, at the same time to arrive at some sort of

:57:47.:57:52.

tribunal which would enable us to be able, by the use of a parallel,

:57:53.:57:58.

bilateral, what is known as a source of law agreement. To end up with a

:57:59.:58:02.

decision-making process which does not and cannot keep us in the

:58:03.:58:09.

European Court of Justice. It isn't a matter of opinion or wishful

:58:10.:58:15.

thinking, it's a fantasyland. I thank the honourable gentleman for

:58:16.:58:20.

giving way. I would like to ask the honourable gentleman about the case

:58:21.:58:24.

of the British company at the moment, which, under our current

:58:25.:58:27.

competition agreement with the EU, if a British company has got a case

:58:28.:58:33.

which they believe his anti-competitive with a European

:58:34.:58:37.

company, they can take direct redress, whereas under the

:58:38.:58:42.

relationships between the EU, the UK and Canada, although we will have

:58:43.:58:46.

competition corporation, if we pass this bill, there will be no direct

:58:47.:58:51.

redress for a British company if they are concerned by the

:58:52.:58:54.

anti-competitive activities of a Canadian company. Whilst I

:58:55.:58:59.

completely understand your concerns with the European Court of Justice

:59:00.:59:02.

going forward, one of the things we do want to see, with our largest

:59:03.:59:07.

trading partner, is a means of address and enforcement which means

:59:08.:59:11.

British companies will be able to take direct redress with our largest

:59:12.:59:15.

trading partner when they need to. Does the honourable member think

:59:16.:59:20.

that they EEA model might be of interest here? I'm not at all

:59:21.:59:28.

convinced by the EEA route, I don't want to get into all of that now,

:59:29.:59:35.

but the EEA involves the EU. Eft is a different story, I specifically

:59:36.:59:38.

raised it with the Prime Minister a few years ago, because I have been

:59:39.:59:47.

having fruitful discussions with the president of the EFTA court and his

:59:48.:59:51.

advisers, he has been speaking to the Foreign Office and others, as

:59:52.:59:55.

chairman of the European scrutiny committee and others. It's an

:59:56.:00:01.

interesting proposition. I am not saying we will do exactly the same

:00:02.:00:06.

in terms of resolving jurisdiction questions as it happens at the

:00:07.:00:10.

moment with EFTA but the advantage of the EFTA model is that it is

:00:11.:00:18.

completely independent of the EU. It follows the European Court of

:00:19.:00:21.

Justice decisions for the most part. Not always. And graduate have

:00:22.:00:29.

noticed that, not many people have. What is important is this is where

:00:30.:00:35.

we end up, having a constructive discussion about the best means of

:00:36.:00:40.

being cousins rather than brothers and sisters. As I put you into

:00:41.:00:44.

mentioned earlier on. We all have a mutual interest in ensuring that we

:00:45.:00:49.

have a proper jurisdiction or answer to these questions, and I'm not

:00:50.:00:53.

going to attempt to design a model standing on my feet here and now.

:00:54.:00:57.

But I think it may be something along the lines of a retired... I

:00:58.:01:05.

don't want to be held to this, but I'm giving it as a thought. Perhaps

:01:06.:01:11.

a retired judge from the European Court, together with a retired

:01:12.:01:14.

member of our Supreme Court, and an independent judge to go with it.

:01:15.:01:18.

Effectively you get the benefit of listening to the arguments which

:01:19.:01:26.

breach the two jurisdictions -- porridge. We are interested for the

:01:27.:01:32.

sake of the companies which my honourable friend has just referred

:01:33.:01:36.

to -- porridge. To nature that we give them the answers they need. It

:01:37.:01:41.

is a practical question. To answer the general point we made, I think

:01:42.:01:47.

it is important, we need to make sure that we end up with something

:01:48.:01:51.

that works, without prejudice to our legislative sovereignty, and at the

:01:52.:02:00.

same time, providing an answer to the people who we have to serve as

:02:01.:02:05.

members of Parliament within our constituencies and throughout the

:02:06.:02:09.

UK. With those words, Mr Deputy Speaker, many congratulations to

:02:10.:02:13.

you, if I may, for the first time on seeing you here yet again! As you

:02:14.:02:18.

may have noticed, I'm still here as well! For practical purposes, I draw

:02:19.:02:24.

my speech to a conclusion by saying I don't in any way want to interfere

:02:25.:02:28.

with the process because it's not really going to affect us in the

:02:29.:02:33.

longer term but actually it is important that we act in a sensible

:02:34.:02:36.

and responsible manner, to ensure that we do not rock the boat in the

:02:37.:02:43.

meantime. Andrew? Thank you. Since it is also my first opportunity, may

:02:44.:02:48.

I congratulate you on coming back to the chair, Mr Deputy Speaker? I'm

:02:49.:02:52.

grateful to the minister setting out the provisions of this bill on the

:02:53.:02:56.

first two draft decisions, we welcome the opportunity to give

:02:57.:03:00.

support to the participation of Albania and Serbia as observers in

:03:01.:03:03.

the EU agency for fundamental rights. As the agency says,

:03:04.:03:09.

fundamental rights sets up minimal standards to make sure a person is

:03:10.:03:13.

treated with dignity. Whether this is the right to be free from

:03:14.:03:18.

discrimination on the basis of your age, ability or ethnic background,

:03:19.:03:25.

these rights should be respected, promoted and protected. They are

:03:26.:03:33.

shared values, with the SNP and the Scottish Government, and we have

:03:34.:03:37.

them dear. For example, we demonstrate this in Scotland by

:03:38.:03:41.

using limited new powers to build a social security system with dignity

:03:42.:03:46.

at the heart. Contrast with the UK Government rolling out dysfunctional

:03:47.:03:49.

Universal Credit regime, punishing the disabled, those on low wages and

:03:50.:03:54.

be vulnerable. Regarding Serbia and Albania, while there is a lot of

:03:55.:03:58.

work to be done, this is an important step for both countries on

:03:59.:04:02.

their journey to improving the lives of citizens. They deserve credit for

:04:03.:04:07.

their repressed and we know joining the EU is also the will of both

:04:08.:04:12.

nations. Serbia was formally announced as an EU candidate in

:04:13.:04:17.

2012, it has already opened ten 35 chapters of succession. Last week,

:04:18.:04:24.

Serbia's newly elected Prime Minister talked of a strategic

:04:25.:04:30.

orientation towards the EU, which represents the values that we stand

:04:31.:04:34.

for. She stated that is the place where Serbia should be. Similarly,

:04:35.:04:39.

elections in Albania this week showed once again a renewed

:04:40.:04:44.

commitment to the EU. The two largest parties are pro-EU and a

:04:45.:04:50.

survey has shown that over 95% of citizens support EU membership. In

:04:51.:04:56.

their commitment to EU, they have shown willingness and a commitment

:04:57.:04:59.

to improving fundamental rights of their citizens and to restoring

:05:00.:05:07.

peace. They see the EU as a vehicle for peace across Europe. Indeed,

:05:08.:05:11.

it's worthwhile recalling, since his name has been mentioned already

:05:12.:05:17.

today, Juncker's tribute to the recently deceased German Chancellor

:05:18.:05:21.

Helmut Kohl, he said that it was on the day that they decided to march

:05:22.:05:28.

south east, in a voice choked with tears, he said it was one of the

:05:29.:05:32.

most beautiful days of his life that he, as German Chancellor, could

:05:33.:05:36.

bring Europe back together again after all the harm Germany caused.

:05:37.:05:43.

Juncker said as his friend that nobody was embarrassed by his tears,

:05:44.:05:48.

it was Europe at its best. We play at a small part in the rights of

:05:49.:05:52.

people across the Western Balkans as a great thing. What a shame that our

:05:53.:05:57.

government, this UK Government, is hell-bent on pulling Scotland out of

:05:58.:06:00.

the very partnership that delivers these protections. This is despite

:06:01.:06:07.

people in every Scottish local authority voting to remain in the

:06:08.:06:12.

EU. It's also not lost on us that the bill comes days after the

:06:13.:06:17.

fundamental rights of people, in particular and those of the LGBT

:06:18.:06:21.

community in Northern Ireland, being questioned because of a back door

:06:22.:06:25.

deal with the DUP, to keep this Tory government in power. I'm happy to

:06:26.:06:30.

give way. When it comes to protecting the human rights of those

:06:31.:06:36.

in the UK, be that Scotland, or Northern Ireland, is it the

:06:37.:06:40.

convention, which is by far the most important of asserting those rights,

:06:41.:06:44.

and we need to keep that in mind? The honourable gentleman makes a

:06:45.:06:47.

good point about the mention of the convention but we need to take every

:06:48.:06:51.

opportunity to make sure we protect the rights of citizens. Mr Speaker,

:06:52.:06:56.

turning to the third and fourth draft decisions, we on the SNP bench

:06:57.:07:02.

welcome further formalisation of the working relationship between Canada

:07:03.:07:05.

and the EU in regard to competition laws. These draft decisions in

:07:06.:07:10.

particular serve as a reminder of the good business and trading

:07:11.:07:13.

opportunities the EU provides for the UK. A bad Brexit deal, or the

:07:14.:07:18.

fact you're scum of ludicrous idea of no deal, will make

:07:19.:07:26.

or a fractured or ludicrous idea of no deal. Scotland could lose as

:07:27.:07:39.

much. Independent estimates could cost 80,000 jobs in a decade. The

:07:40.:07:44.

average wage could fall by ?2000 per year per head. But this...

:07:45.:07:49.

For the record, could the member confirm that Scotland's largest

:07:50.:07:54.

trading partner is the rest of the United Kingdom? I'm happy to confirm

:07:55.:08:01.

that, but I'm also happy to point out how important Scotland is for

:08:02.:08:05.

the rest of the UK in terms of a trading partner. This treaty shows

:08:06.:08:10.

that there are many impending costs of hard Brexit. The rights of

:08:11.:08:16.

citizens who might find they face additional burdens. The library

:08:17.:08:20.

notes in this legislation, as the Minister mentioned earlier, says

:08:21.:08:25.

that it carries no cost to the government, but that doesn't mean

:08:26.:08:27.

subsequently losing these protections were on the no cost to

:08:28.:08:35.

our citizens and businesses. Areas of EU competition regulation, for

:08:36.:08:41.

example, anti-trust, cartels, mergers and state aid, the sectors

:08:42.:08:45.

covered, agriculture and food, consumer goods, energy and

:08:46.:08:50.

environment, financial services, information and communication

:08:51.:08:54.

technologies, media, motor vehicles, pharmaceuticals, postal professional

:08:55.:08:59.

services, sport, telecommunications and transport. It's yet another

:09:00.:09:03.

example, and we have heard no update today on where we have no clarity

:09:04.:09:07.

from the UK Government over Brexit proposals from them on something

:09:08.:09:11.

fundamental to UK companies operating in the EU. And ultimately

:09:12.:09:20.

and importantly to our citizens, this agreement will mean information

:09:21.:09:25.

obtained during the competition enforcement investigations may be

:09:26.:09:28.

discussed and transferred between the European communication and the

:09:29.:09:34.

Canadian competition bureau. It's intended to increase the to conclude

:09:35.:09:41.

competition and enforcement regulations efficiently, and it

:09:42.:09:45.

should be welcome. We are advised to follow in the UK's exit from the

:09:46.:09:49.

European Union, UK companies operating within the EU will still

:09:50.:10:00.

be subject to the jurisdiction, so will the Minister confirm with food

:10:01.:10:05.

that agreement has been met and when it was decided. Mr Deputy Speaker,

:10:06.:10:11.

as we know following the 2.4 billion euros fine on Google, the EU is

:10:12.:10:17.

considering giving tougher competition powers to allow for

:10:18.:10:22.

earlier and faster intervention in potential anti-trust cases. After

:10:23.:10:26.

Brexit the UK will have no say over these types of decisions, which

:10:27.:10:29.

could potentially involve UK companies. How does this government

:10:30.:10:35.

intend to deal with the indication for businesses and consumers of

:10:36.:10:40.

having no voice in the direction of EU competition law? I think we

:10:41.:10:43.

really need to hear some commitments. The Right Honourable

:10:44.:10:47.

member for Stone didn't want to be held to anything, but isn't it about

:10:48.:10:51.

time the UK Government were held to at least some things on the future?

:10:52.:10:55.

While we on these benches are keen to approve these draft decisions,

:10:56.:11:01.

the nature of the bill shows how deep and wide our current

:11:02.:11:06.

protections are in the EU. In Scotland we remain determined to

:11:07.:11:10.

give people hope for the future. And for the protections they currently

:11:11.:11:13.

take for granted, that they will continue to benefit from them, for

:11:14.:11:18.

their families and businesses. I believe there are many people on all

:11:19.:11:23.

sides of this chamber who are passionate about dignity, freedom

:11:24.:11:27.

sand protections, as I and we in the SNP are. Whatever the future holds,

:11:28.:11:32.

it will be important for those voices to make themselves heard. And

:11:33.:11:37.

when they do, we will be ready to support them. The next speaker. I

:11:38.:11:49.

think this is a time for everyone to make congratulations to the Deputy

:11:50.:11:56.

Speaker on your successful real action. Let me do so again on behalf

:11:57.:12:02.

of the whole house. Let me reflect on what we are doing here... As my

:12:03.:12:08.

honourable friend the member for Stone has said, we are not going to

:12:09.:12:14.

be here, we're not going to be in the EU when Albania and Serbia are

:12:15.:12:19.

admitted as members. So we are taking a role as members now of the

:12:20.:12:25.

European Union, to set out something for their benefit for the future. I

:12:26.:12:32.

think that's an important point to remember. We are acting responsibly

:12:33.:12:37.

with our membership now of the European Union. We are not simply

:12:38.:12:41.

washing our hands of two countries that I will comment on in a moment.

:12:42.:12:47.

I think that's a very important point to make. The question I asked

:12:48.:12:54.

in my intervention of the Minister, of what is the difference between

:12:55.:12:58.

the agency for fundamental rights, and what the Council of Europe does,

:12:59.:13:03.

is a very relevant one. The description she gave what the agency

:13:04.:13:07.

does was exactly what the Council of does. And I could not get a

:13:08.:13:13.

cigarette paper between the two definitions. As many other members

:13:14.:13:18.

have made by way of intervention, many of us as members of the Council

:13:19.:13:24.

of Europe, are actively involved in the process of monitoring Albania

:13:25.:13:29.

and Serbia and their participation, for example, in elections. And we

:13:30.:13:34.

will continue to do so for many years after we have left the

:13:35.:13:37.

European Union. Because the Council of Europe is not an EU body, and

:13:38.:13:43.

therefore we will continue, I hope, anyway, as members of the Council of

:13:44.:13:50.

Europe, with its subsidiary body, if I can use that phrase, which is the

:13:51.:13:57.

short European Court of Human Rights. It's important to recognise

:13:58.:14:01.

that it's the Council of Europe that owns the European Court of Human

:14:02.:14:05.

Rights and owns the convention. I will come on to say something about

:14:06.:14:12.

that in just a second. But in terms of Serbia and Albania, as my

:14:13.:14:18.

honourable friend from South Suffolk said, we shouldn't take lightly the

:14:19.:14:26.

situation in Serbia. I have spent many years in Central and Eastern

:14:27.:14:29.

Europe in order to help develop those countries along the path of

:14:30.:14:35.

democracy and market economy. It seems to me to be only a few years

:14:36.:14:41.

ago that we were looking at a Serbia that was full of warlords, that was

:14:42.:14:46.

full of all the banks of the Balkans at the time. -- full of the angst of

:14:47.:15:03.

the Balkans. I spent a lot of time working with Serbian members of

:15:04.:15:07.

Parliament. This was done on a cross-party basis. One of the

:15:08.:15:10.

members was actually a Serbian Socialist member of Parliament, who

:15:11.:15:16.

I had the extreme pleasure of working with. But they have come so

:15:17.:15:21.

far in what they are trying to do, in what they have achieved, and

:15:22.:15:27.

where they are going. The cooperation that we had encompassed

:15:28.:15:34.

all the areas, all the three areas that the Council of Europe looks

:15:35.:15:38.

after, which are democracy, human rights and the rule of law. I think

:15:39.:15:44.

it's important to stress those. Because Serbia, we have two

:15:45.:15:55.

incidents, two examples of Serbia's problems in the region. One is

:15:56.:16:01.

Kosovo, where members of the European Union, still some members

:16:02.:16:05.

do not recognise Kosovo as a separate state. And Montenegro. I'm

:16:06.:16:12.

pleased to say that at the last Council of Europe meeting we had the

:16:13.:16:15.

Prime Minister of Montenegro come to talk to us. That shows the enormous

:16:16.:16:23.

respect there is between these two countries for their respective

:16:24.:16:24.

institutions and for their individual members of those

:16:25.:16:31.

institutions. Albania is a slightly different case. Albania was, I

:16:32.:16:37.

think, the 35th member of the Council of Europe. And we still

:16:38.:16:43.

monitor Albanian elections very closely. In fact, I was invited to

:16:44.:16:51.

go and be a monitor of the recent Albanian elections, but was unable

:16:52.:16:54.

to do so because of a general election here. I think what we have

:16:55.:17:03.

seen their is an enormous difficulty, and an enormous

:17:04.:17:06.

difficulty of corruption, for example. I am the Prime Minister's

:17:07.:17:12.

trade envoy to Nigeria, a place that has a reputation for corruption, but

:17:13.:17:17.

I can tell you that Albania runs at a very close second in terms of the

:17:18.:17:21.

level of corruption that we see there. I said to an honourable

:17:22.:17:26.

friend that I would say that during this debate and he said, you better

:17:27.:17:32.

watch out, there are gangs of Albanians wondering about wanting to

:17:33.:17:35.

throw you into the back of a brute of a car and do away with you. Well,

:17:36.:17:41.

I have said it and taken at risk. What the minister set out as the

:17:42.:17:48.

responsibilities for the agency, that it collect, analyses and

:17:49.:17:52.

disseminate subjective, reliable and comparable information related to

:17:53.:17:55.

the situation of fundamental rights in the EU. As I said earlier, I see

:17:56.:18:00.

no difference between that and what the Council of Europe does. If I can

:18:01.:18:06.

turn to what the Council of Europe is doing in Serbia and Albania.

:18:07.:18:11.

Taking Serbia first, what the Council of Europe is doing is

:18:12.:18:15.

strengthening the capacities for law enforcement and judiciary in that

:18:16.:18:19.

country. Specifically in the fight against corruption. An additional

:18:20.:18:26.

project aims to harmonise Court practices and raise judges'

:18:27.:18:31.

capacities to ensure consistent applications of the judgments of the

:18:32.:18:36.

European Court of Human Rights. Those seem to me to be identical to

:18:37.:18:41.

the activities that the agency undertakes on behalf of the EU. I do

:18:42.:18:46.

think there ought to be considerable cooperation between the Council of

:18:47.:18:52.

Europe and the agency in order to take these things forward. I would

:18:53.:18:57.

like to point out as well, and this indicates how far Serbia has come,

:18:58.:19:02.

that Serbia plays an active role on a regional basis in promoting

:19:03.:19:06.

minority protection. That includes particularly protection for the Roma

:19:07.:19:14.

community and an inclusive form of education. If we turn to Albania for

:19:15.:19:20.

a second, the overall strategic objective in Albania of the Council

:19:21.:19:24.

of Europe, is to promote the reform agenda. That's right across a number

:19:25.:19:30.

of different sectors. And the protection of human rights,

:19:31.:19:35.

anti-discrimination, the fight against corruption and organised

:19:36.:19:40.

crime. Reform of the judiciary. And particularly, freedom of the media

:19:41.:19:44.

and free and fair elections in line with general European standards is

:19:45.:19:50.

all part of the efforts to increase good governance and democratic

:19:51.:19:56.

participation. I know Albania has a long way to go behind the other

:19:57.:20:02.

countries of the Council of Europe and the EU in being able to take its

:20:03.:20:10.

agenda forward, but nevertheless, the council is working on that will

:20:11.:20:16.

stop and while it would be churlish of me to deny the rights of Serbia

:20:17.:20:24.

and Albania to be members of the agency on the basis that is set out

:20:25.:20:29.

in the bill and in the agreement with them, I do think that the

:20:30.:20:34.

European scrutiny committee could have looked more carefully at what

:20:35.:20:39.

the Council of Europe is doing in this area and could have pointed out

:20:40.:20:45.

the overlap between what the Council of Europe is doing and what the

:20:46.:20:50.

agency is trying to do. We have talked about the length of time it

:20:51.:20:54.

takes for access and to take place. I would suggest the accession takes

:20:55.:21:03.

such a long time because there is very little in the way of

:21:04.:21:08.

cooperation and harmonisation in the individual organisations involved in

:21:09.:21:12.

this are trying to do. Those are the comments I would make on Serbia and

:21:13.:21:19.

Albania. I do think they should be admitted. To answer the question

:21:20.:21:23.

that was made by the honourable gentleman who isn't in his seat any

:21:24.:21:27.

more from the other benches about what we do to put pressure on Serbia

:21:28.:21:36.

and Albania, they have come out of a horrendous period in their history.

:21:37.:21:41.

The thing we have to do is welcome them into our institutions. The

:21:42.:21:46.

thing we have to do most of all, and this is where we work very

:21:47.:21:52.

effectively in the Council of Europe in this, is not necessarily to

:21:53.:21:57.

harmonise the legislation to make it compliant with the EU as the agency

:21:58.:22:03.

does. All of that can be taken care of. What we do is to work with them

:22:04.:22:07.

to include them as part of the bigger European family, and to put

:22:08.:22:13.

the pressure on them to act in the right way in their own countries. As

:22:14.:22:19.

those other members of the Council of Europe will affirm, I'm sure,

:22:20.:22:24.

that is a practice that is very effective in the way of dealing with

:22:25.:22:30.

this issue. So I do welcome them in this. I can't think of a reason to

:22:31.:22:37.

keep them out of it. But I would just ask for more cooperation across

:22:38.:22:44.

the board there. If I can turn very briefly to the Canadian competition

:22:45.:22:45.

issue... If I can turn to the Canadian

:22:46.:22:55.

competition issue, other speakers have commented on it, personally I

:22:56.:22:59.

see no difficulty in exchanging information and having a better

:23:00.:23:02.

system for exchange information, whether via the EU or with Canada

:23:03.:23:07.

directly. As a result of activities that take place. On that note, Mr

:23:08.:23:13.

Deputy Speaker, I will sit down. Ian Paisley. Thank you, Mr Deputy

:23:14.:23:20.

Speaker, on the brief comments I wish to make, let me add my

:23:21.:23:24.

congratulations to you, as you fulfil what has become your rightful

:23:25.:23:27.

place in this house. In sharing these proceedings as Deputy Speaker,

:23:28.:23:33.

it's good to see you in your place. It's also a privilege to follow

:23:34.:23:37.

after some of the speeches made here today, especially the speech made by

:23:38.:23:41.

the right honourable gentleman from stone, I often think when he speaks

:23:42.:23:45.

on these issues, that his constituency is so badly

:23:46.:23:51.

underwhelmed in terms of its naming, it should be called the ruck, though

:23:52.:23:55.

right honourable gentleman acts like the ruck, solid on these issues --

:23:56.:24:07.

the rock. Such skill in this particular area, I wholeheartedly

:24:08.:24:12.

concur but the point that he put before the house, that the scrutiny

:24:13.:24:16.

committee on these issues should be reactivated and done so very

:24:17.:24:22.

quickly. As we exit the EU, we will need to scrutinise these matters

:24:23.:24:25.

very clearly, and very closely, and spend some time ensuring that we

:24:26.:24:32.

consider the details that will, of course, come up during the exit

:24:33.:24:36.

process. The scrutiny committee is a vehicle that could be used for that

:24:37.:24:40.

advantage and I wish them well in his quest to have the committee

:24:41.:24:45.

re-established. I also agree in the terms of the point he made about the

:24:46.:24:49.

Charter of rights, I think it is an absolute dog's dinner, and I will

:24:50.:24:53.

not invite the Minister to comment on that, but I do think that he made

:24:54.:24:59.

a valid point in that regard. Of course, much of the shared values

:25:00.:25:10.

that we co-write today indiscretions kingdom, under our own rights

:25:11.:25:15.

-based, law, we too quickly cast but aside and think all of these rights

:25:16.:25:20.

were given to us by the EU. Of course, we bestowed much of the

:25:21.:25:24.

principles and fundamental principles of rights to our

:25:25.:25:28.

neighbouring states, and last year, indeed, in a display in Westminster

:25:29.:25:33.

Hall, it's celebrated many of the fundamental rights originating year

:25:34.:25:36.

from employment rights, right the way through to anti-slavery

:25:37.:25:41.

activities. I think we should take more pride that this nation is the

:25:42.:25:46.

bastion of rights, and has encouraged rights around the world,

:25:47.:25:53.

and I also agree with the point made by the honourable gentleman on the

:25:54.:25:57.

benches opposite, that we are not leaving the EEC HR, which is an

:25:58.:26:06.

incredibly important point. -- the ECHR, it is not affected by Brexit.

:26:07.:26:11.

People forget that whenever you mention Brexit, it is too commonly

:26:12.:26:16.

called that we are leaving Europe, we aren't. We are leaving an

:26:17.:26:21.

economic club that failed us. That is the point that needs to be made.

:26:22.:26:32.

The member for Inverness, a backroom deal on rights between my party and

:26:33.:26:35.

its understanding with the government of the day. I would like

:26:36.:26:41.

to make it absolutely clear, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the rights of

:26:42.:26:45.

the unborn child, in my view, and in the views of people in my party and

:26:46.:26:53.

on this bench Trump any political agreement which is put in place. Let

:26:54.:27:00.

me make that abundantly clear. If anyone thinks that we take a view

:27:01.:27:05.

that we would treat the issue of life and the sanctity of life on a

:27:06.:27:09.

political deal, they do not understand me and they do not

:27:10.:27:13.

understand my party. They need to be aware of that. For it to be

:27:14.:27:17.

characterised in that way, I think, is grossly unfair to members of my

:27:18.:27:23.

party. The honourable member makes a point about something I said about

:27:24.:27:28.

the deal. I was not making any point about children born or otherwise.

:27:29.:27:33.

But actually about LGBT concerns, in Northern Ireland. I think you should

:27:34.:27:43.

be willing to clarify? I am happy for that, but what happened in the

:27:44.:27:46.

last week in this house and with the passing of the Queen's speech and

:27:47.:27:50.

amendments that were not moved, reference was made to that and it

:27:51.:27:54.

should be clear that in my view and in the views of my party, the

:27:55.:27:58.

unborn, even in the words of Hillary Clinton, is a human being, that

:27:59.:28:04.

according to science, it feels pain and knows a motion, and it is

:28:05.:28:10.

fearfully and wonderfully made. -- nose in motion. I believe my party

:28:11.:28:15.

will take a stand on that issue, irrespective of other agreements. In

:28:16.:28:27.

the issue of competition, mentioned under the bill of competitive rights

:28:28.:28:30.

which have been identified, I welcome what has been put in the

:28:31.:28:34.

Labour Party manifesto on page six of the manifesto. It emphasises the

:28:35.:28:38.

importance of what we are actually discussing today, when it says that

:28:39.:28:43.

the Labour Party is going to ensure that we leave the EU, I welcome

:28:44.:28:48.

that. When we leave the EU, it means we do not half leave it, we don't

:28:49.:28:53.

partly leave it, we get out. I think that is essential, we get out the

:28:54.:28:59.

customs union and get out of the single market. We cannot actually

:29:00.:29:04.

address competition matters in the way that they have been identified

:29:05.:29:09.

in this bill, with Canada, for example. If we do not get out of the

:29:10.:29:13.

customs union. It is crucial we leave the customs union, we cannot

:29:14.:29:18.

make free trade agreements with any other country unless we are free to

:29:19.:29:23.

do so. So, the quest for freedom is incredibly important. This was

:29:24.:29:29.

driven home to me recently in some correspondence I received from a

:29:30.:29:33.

large steel processor here in the UK. Of course, I will give way. And

:29:34.:29:39.

grateful for you giving way. He is raising important points to do with

:29:40.:29:43.

the competition element of this bill, you touched on the

:29:44.:29:49.

intervention earlier on. I wonder if you would say a little about how you

:29:50.:29:54.

see the relationship between the north and south of Ireland working?

:29:55.:29:58.

I will certainly comment on that, after I have made this point about

:29:59.:30:06.

the steel industry. I received this note from the managing director of

:30:07.:30:09.

John Reid and Sons, a massive company which has been in existence

:30:10.:30:15.

for 98 years, they wrote to me and said to remain in the customs union

:30:16.:30:19.

would mean that we cannot do our own trade deals with the rest of the

:30:20.:30:25.

world. We have exported to over 140 countries throughout and 98 years in

:30:26.:30:29.

business, and we have an idea of what we are actually talking about.

:30:30.:30:34.

The customs union is a terrible tragedy for third World agriculture

:30:35.:30:39.

fisheries and events proper trade. That is someone who knows what they

:30:40.:30:43.

are talking about, they are at the coal face everyday. I think it is

:30:44.:30:48.

important that that point is reflected in this debate. The

:30:49.:30:52.

honourable member has asked me to comment on some points made about

:30:53.:30:56.

how this impacts on the Republic of Ireland. I think you would be giving

:30:57.:31:03.

me great leniency, if I were to speak at length today on the

:31:04.:31:06.

Republic of Ireland and what a future trade deal would look like.

:31:07.:31:11.

Even though you would likely consider me rule me out of order,

:31:12.:31:14.

but I would like to touch upon the point. Could I commend to all

:31:15.:31:18.

members of the house that they go to the library and get a copy of Policy

:31:19.:31:23.

Exchange documents, which have just been published this month, written

:31:24.:31:28.

by Ray Bassett, a former ambassador from the Republic of Ireland to the

:31:29.:31:33.

United Nations. The title of the document is "After Brexit, will

:31:34.:31:37.

Ireland be next to exit?" An important policy paper which sets

:31:38.:31:45.

out compelling reasons as to why the Republic of Ireland must follow the

:31:46.:31:50.

UK out of the EU. Because, if they fail to do so, it is fair trade that

:31:51.:31:55.

will be ruined. It's something we have in common with Canada on this

:31:56.:32:03.

point. For example, Canada's protecting fishing for its own

:32:04.:32:07.

companies. We discussed at some length in the media that fishing

:32:08.:32:11.

rights of the UK. Of course, in the Republic of Ireland, their fishing

:32:12.:32:17.

waters are currently under finished because the Republic of Ireland

:32:18.:32:20.

wants to encourage the rest of the EU to fish in our waters. Once we

:32:21.:32:27.

claim those fishing waters back, Mr Deputy Speaker, the rest of the EU

:32:28.:32:30.

will want to fish in Ireland's fishing waters and put pressure on

:32:31.:32:34.

the Republic of Ireland and steal their catch. It is for those reasons

:32:35.:32:39.

why it is essential we understand the commercial reasons that lie

:32:40.:32:42.

behind why it is important for Ireland to exit the EU. I've

:32:43.:32:47.

probably pushed you enough, Mr Deputy chairman, my comments on the

:32:48.:32:50.

Republic of Ireland, I wish the front bench would encourage me again

:32:51.:32:54.

and ask me another question on that issue, and I would push that matter

:32:55.:33:00.

even further. You may not get the red flag but I think we have to make

:33:01.:33:05.

it absolutely clear that the sorts of agreements, I said this earlier,

:33:06.:33:08.

the sorts of agreements we discussed today with what was in the Bill

:33:09.:33:13.

gently impact on a pattern of how we do, since future. -- how we do,

:33:14.:33:21.

nurse in future. The Canadian aspects of this are very important.

:33:22.:33:27.

It is how Canada will be treated after we leave, and the relationship

:33:28.:33:33.

we have with Canada. We need to look at what is contained in this

:33:34.:33:42.

particular bill. In response to the points made by the member for

:33:43.:33:46.

Henley, when the UK leaves and Albania and Serbia join, I would

:33:47.:33:50.

like to say, good luck with that. It will be some club to be part of at

:33:51.:33:56.

that point but that would be unfair. They will ultimately be matters for

:33:57.:34:01.

what is left of the EU, but by the time the Ascension rights are

:34:02.:34:05.

actually achieved, I think the EU will be a very different country,

:34:06.:34:10.

Surrey, a very different club to what it currently is now. When the

:34:11.:34:17.

EU leads, as predicted, when Ireland leaves the EU, with Serbia and

:34:18.:34:23.

Albania wishing to join, we may, at that point, consider what is in

:34:24.:34:27.

their greater interests. The charges of them being a member of the EU

:34:28.:34:33.

will be announced. Since 2014, the Republic of Ireland has had to pay

:34:34.:34:38.

over ?1 billion to be a member, they previously paid nothing. If that is

:34:39.:34:43.

what Ireland has two fork out, what world countries like Serbia and

:34:44.:34:48.

Albania had to fork out in this new club and in this new arrangement? I

:34:49.:34:52.

leave these points for the house today and hope the minister will

:34:53.:35:00.

reflect on those and touch on those. It is a great pleasure to follow the

:35:01.:35:05.

member for North Antrim who speaks with eloquence and with authority as

:35:06.:35:08.

ever. Let me pick up with those issues raised at the beginning of

:35:09.:35:11.

his speech. It's the first opportunity I have had to

:35:12.:35:17.

congratulate you, and I do so under your election. It's the first

:35:18.:35:21.

opportunity I had to say how delighted I am to return, and I will

:35:22.:35:30.

do my very upmost to repay that trust that my constituents have put

:35:31.:35:36.

in me. I will make a short contribution to this debate. This

:35:37.:35:41.

afternoon. Not least because I see some honourable colleagues who want

:35:42.:35:46.

to cut sure I, Mr Deputy Speaker. I stand here as someone who voted to

:35:47.:35:51.

leave the EU, who has an optimistic vision of our country outside of the

:35:52.:35:55.

EU. But the irony is not lost on me. That this afternoon we are debating,

:35:56.:36:01.

two countries who want to accede to the EU, whilst we, the UK, are in

:36:02.:36:07.

fact leaving the European Union. Be that as it may, it's an important

:36:08.:36:12.

debate and it is important that we get it right. As the minister said,

:36:13.:36:18.

at the dispatch box and in correspondence, it is important that

:36:19.:36:21.

while we are still a member of the EU, that we fully engage in the

:36:22.:36:27.

subject, and that is what we are doing this afternoon. Mr Deputy

:36:28.:36:30.

Speaker, a rather helpful explanatory note, and indeed with

:36:31.:36:36.

the honourable member for central Sefton, he is temporarily out of his

:36:37.:36:41.

seat. And other honourable members, they have mention the European

:36:42.:36:44.

Scrutiny Committee. It is clear the works of that committee permeate

:36:45.:36:49.

throughout this bill. Although that is not the purpose of this bill, I'm

:36:50.:36:52.

delighted it gives me the opportunity to say what an important

:36:53.:36:57.

job that committee does. I once again declare an interest having

:36:58.:37:00.

served on that committee, but I would like to reaffirm the point

:37:01.:37:04.

that I think it is essential that the scrutiny committee gets up and

:37:05.:37:08.

running as quickly as possible and the former chairman of the

:37:09.:37:13.

committee, and I hope the next chairman of the committee, the

:37:14.:37:17.

honourable member for Stone, emphasises there are documents

:37:18.:37:21.

piling up even as I speak. I simply re-the point and the -- reemphasise

:37:22.:37:30.

the point and the urgency and on the order paper there is no reference to

:37:31.:37:36.

the scrutiny committee and the debates later on this afternoon.

:37:37.:37:41.

Picking up on one point, Mr Deputy Speaker. The very first occasion the

:37:42.:37:46.

scrutiny committee did not clear this legislation from scrutiny, but

:37:47.:37:51.

required further clarification. I'm delighted the Minister in her place

:37:52.:37:55.

provided that clarification, which enabled the scrutiny committee to

:37:56.:37:59.

clear this document from committee and enabled this process to happen.

:38:00.:38:06.

We of course must emphasise we are leaving the EU but for as long as we

:38:07.:38:10.

remain members we will play a full and sensible part, that is what we

:38:11.:38:14.

do this afternoon and Mr Deputy Speaker I'm delighted to have played

:38:15.:38:17.

a very small part in this debate this afternoon.

:38:18.:38:25.

It is a pleasure to be speaking from the backbenches once again. I had

:38:26.:38:33.

almost forgotten about the whole standing up and sitting down thing.

:38:34.:38:36.

I want to welcome this legislation and offer it my support. In so doing

:38:37.:38:44.

I want to speak to the provisions as they specific relate to Canada and

:38:45.:38:48.

broaden them out within the realms of the debate and within the Bill,

:38:49.:38:52.

about our relationship more generally with Canada and moving

:38:53.:38:57.

forward. I do this as a former trade envoy to Canada, a role I very much

:38:58.:39:01.

enjoyed before I was made a minister. It is one I think we need

:39:02.:39:06.

to fill again at some point in the near future and I can think of one

:39:07.:39:14.

or two possible candidates for that. Tall, dark handsome, former

:39:15.:39:18.

ministers from the North of England, for example. Where are they, in

:39:19.:39:27.

deed! It is very nice to have a bill before the House today naming

:39:28.:39:33.

Canada, because it was 150 years ago since the British, North America act

:39:34.:39:38.

which established the Confederation of Canada and the celebrations took

:39:39.:39:43.

place throughout Canada for that. It is nice 150 years later to be

:39:44.:39:49.

recognising Canada's birthday. And also to be recognising the

:39:50.:39:56.

200-year-old birthday of the bank of Montreal, which is the bank with the

:39:57.:39:59.

longest presence in the United Kingdom. The competition provisions

:40:00.:40:04.

in this piece of legislation are very sensible and they operate on a

:40:05.:40:08.

basis for future relationships with Canada once we have left the

:40:09.:40:14.

European Union. I want to use this debate in my few words this

:40:15.:40:18.

afternoon to explain why I feel this particular relationship is so

:40:19.:40:22.

important and is worthy of more attention from Her Majesty's

:40:23.:40:28.

government over these coming years. We have the important shared

:40:29.:40:32.

heritage with Canada, one which has been strengthened through conflict

:40:33.:40:38.

and war. It was a reminder just recently, when the Bletchley Park

:40:39.:40:41.

commemorative badge was presented by our representative in Ottawa to

:40:42.:40:52.

96-year-olds Sonia Morrow rips Sinclair who escaped from the

:40:53.:40:56.

approaching Nazi armies in Czechoslovakia and worked in the

:40:57.:41:11.

important work with signals. It is obviously have a shared language,

:41:12.:41:16.

shared legal system and shared government. It is a relationship

:41:17.:41:22.

that post Brexit can flourish on those commonalities and it makes

:41:23.:41:28.

economic sense for us to develop this relationship more closely. UK

:41:29.:41:40.

experts to Canada in 2015... Exports to Canada. We have commonalities and

:41:41.:41:47.

agreements be that on the provisions of this bill and competition but

:41:48.:41:53.

also with regards to the recently agreed EU and Canada trade Treaty,

:41:54.:41:58.

which is a good basis of a treaty between this country and Canada once

:41:59.:42:04.

we leave. Because of the nature of European decision-making, I think we

:42:05.:42:08.

can do better following our exit from the European Union on the basis

:42:09.:42:12.

of that relationship. We are well placed to succeed and do well from

:42:13.:42:17.

that relationship post Brexit. Not least because of the friendly

:42:18.:42:21.

business environment and shared heritage, but of our strong presence

:42:22.:42:25.

in the market, in particular as a result of investment from this

:42:26.:42:32.

government, and I knew that and saw that for myself and so have valued

:42:33.:42:36.

it was in my time as a trade envoy. We had an excellent team led by the

:42:37.:42:41.

High Commissioner Howard Drake, who was very well regarded. But also by

:42:42.:42:47.

our consul general and director of trading Canada, Kevin McGuirk and

:42:48.:42:50.

who is based in Toronto. I saw how well regarded he was and how

:42:51.:42:57.

well-connected on a business level the government was as a result of

:42:58.:43:02.

those relationships. Two weeks ago I was in discussions with our consul

:43:03.:43:06.

general in Vancouver, Nicole Davidson who is doing a great job. I

:43:07.:43:12.

want to put a bit of meat on the bones about what we need to do more

:43:13.:43:16.

to get the maximum advantage from this relationship post Brexit. I

:43:17.:43:23.

talked about the need for us to recognise first of all, which I

:43:24.:43:26.

think this government has, the importance of this relationship post

:43:27.:43:31.

Brexit. We have the Leader of the Opposition, newly elected Leader of

:43:32.:43:37.

the Opposition in Canada wrote a piece in favour of Brexit in the

:43:38.:43:41.

run-up to the election. The Canadian government said it wants to be as

:43:42.:43:44.

helpful as possible to us through this process. And the possible,

:43:45.:43:50.

probable premiere of Alberta, Jason Kenney, was also an advocate of

:43:51.:43:59.

Brexit over there. It is important to us, this relation because Canada

:44:00.:44:04.

is campaigning for a place on the UN Security Council at the moment. In

:44:05.:44:09.

doing that, I call on the government to recognise, not also be importance

:44:10.:44:14.

of its relationship of Canada at a federal level, but recognise Canada

:44:15.:44:18.

is a country of several different economies at provincial relationship

:44:19.:44:22.

with those governments, three of which are represented here in the

:44:23.:44:27.

United Kingdom, British Columbia, Ontario and Quebec is vitally

:44:28.:44:32.

important. My page on this piece of legislation in a broad sense is for

:44:33.:44:35.

us to recognise what we have achieved to the EU and to our

:44:36.:44:40.

bilateral arrangements with Canada has a close relationship. But what

:44:41.:44:45.

we need to do to put a bit more, as I said, meat on the bones to

:44:46.:44:49.

strengthen that relationship. There is work going on for that at the

:44:50.:44:52.

moment. I would call on ministers to make sure they are fully cognisant

:44:53.:44:57.

of this important relationship, putting the effort and attention

:44:58.:45:05.

that is required into that through visits and make sure our network is

:45:06.:45:09.

as strong as it needs to be to make sure we get the good deal to replace

:45:10.:45:15.

other things, into the future. It does involve a recognition of the

:45:16.:45:20.

specifics of the provincial position in Canada, both politically and

:45:21.:45:24.

economically. On that, I have nothing else to say, Mr Deputy

:45:25.:45:28.

Speaker, other than to end where I began, which is a happy birthday to

:45:29.:45:33.

Canada for its 150 years, which I am sure the House will agree with. Can

:45:34.:45:40.

I just say, it is worth reminding members to get into the habit of

:45:41.:45:45.

standing because then I know who wants to speak because the list is

:45:46.:45:50.

changing quicker than I have seen the list change before. Somebody who

:45:51.:45:54.

believes in open competitive markets because they foster in innovation,

:45:55.:46:00.

create the wealth we need for public services, I believe to have those

:46:01.:46:06.

free markets, we must have robust competition powers so we can take

:46:07.:46:10.

action against companies that act in anti-competitive manners. In the

:46:11.:46:17.

21st-century world, the economic actors are frequently more global

:46:18.:46:22.

players, especially in areas like digital markets. It is important we

:46:23.:46:26.

can work with other countries on competition issues. I remember a

:46:27.:46:33.

couple of years ago, I was in silicon valley with politicians from

:46:34.:46:37.

Germany, the Netherlands, Poland 's and the Czech Republic. Many players

:46:38.:46:42.

in silicon valley where telling us about their concerns about how

:46:43.:46:47.

Google was acting at the time. When I went with that group of

:46:48.:46:52.

politicians to meet the head of search for Google, I have never seen

:46:53.:46:56.

a company with so many lawyers in one room. Because they knew the

:46:57.:47:02.

power back countries could take when acting together. It was interesting

:47:03.:47:07.

couple of weeks ago to CB European Commission competition taking action

:47:08.:47:11.

on a proposed fine for Google. That has some controversy and it may

:47:12.:47:15.

creates a precedence of how platforms can act in the future. But

:47:16.:47:20.

it is also important in a like that, that those who are taking the action

:47:21.:47:25.

can be clear there is a level playing field and they are not

:47:26.:47:29.

singling out, for example, an American company when they wouldn't

:47:30.:47:33.

do the same to a British or a European one. One of the benefits of

:47:34.:47:38.

having a co-operation deal, such as we are discussing today, is that by

:47:39.:47:46.

working to -- together, it won't single out our own anchor Raqqa

:47:47.:47:55.

companies on a different level of jurisdiction than others. It also

:47:56.:47:59.

brings bigger resources in order to take on big cases. For the UK post

:48:00.:48:05.

Brexit, we will want to make it very clear to the world we are prepared

:48:06.:48:09.

to take on competition cases for very big players. So therefore,

:48:10.:48:13.

being able to cooperate with other countries, is very important. Canada

:48:14.:48:20.

is a dear friend to the UK, as my honourable friend has pointed out.

:48:21.:48:24.

But the Canada free trade agreement, if I can talk briefly, is not the

:48:25.:48:29.

perfect model for the future UK EU relationship. I remember how the

:48:30.:48:34.

Canada free trade agreement removes many, many tariffs from different

:48:35.:48:39.

trades. We voted it through in the European Parliament on the 15th of

:48:40.:48:43.

February, the day after Valentine's Day. I remember celebrating that now

:48:44.:48:50.

we would have tariff free chocolate, a great benefit!, but it also does

:48:51.:48:54.

not create anything like the deep level of market access that I

:48:55.:48:58.

believe this government seeks for our future relationship with Europe.

:48:59.:49:03.

If we chose that model just off the shelf, it would create many new

:49:04.:49:09.

nontariff barriers in areas like digital and financial services. It

:49:10.:49:12.

wouldn't give anything like the regulatory cooperation level we

:49:13.:49:17.

seek. British car manufacturers wouldn't even be consulted in a

:49:18.:49:22.

consultation of stakeholders about potential changes to international

:49:23.:49:26.

rules on card transactions. I do think we will need to have a deeper

:49:27.:49:33.

model. I do think we need to make sure our competition and cooperation

:49:34.:49:38.

has a dispute resolution mechanism for companies, as well as countries.

:49:39.:49:42.

I was particularly pleased to hear the honourable member 4/ suggesting

:49:43.:49:52.

that the courts may prove a good or interesting basis for that dispute

:49:53.:49:58.

resolution going forward. Because coming from the honourable member

:49:59.:50:08.

for Stoke, stone, sorry it is such a powerful message you are giving with

:50:09.:50:12.

all of your experience that may be a pragmatic solution going forward.

:50:13.:50:19.

Finally, I would say, and picking up from his suggestion we need to move

:50:20.:50:25.

from being brothers and sisters to being close cousins, in developing

:50:26.:50:28.

that future relationship, there will be areas where we need to have some

:50:29.:50:33.

serious discussions and arguments. I would suggest this is not one of

:50:34.:50:37.

them. Allowing other countries to come together on issues like human

:50:38.:50:43.

rights and competition cooperation, it's something we should allow the

:50:44.:50:47.

pass and not block and therefore, save our discussions and arguments

:50:48.:50:52.

for where they are needed. Thank you. Can I join the long queue of

:50:53.:51:01.

those who paid tribute to you upon your real election and the

:51:02.:51:04.

outstanding role you play in this House. As the member for Sefton

:51:05.:51:11.

Central said from the start, we support the European Union approval

:51:12.:51:15.

is and proposals tabled by the minister today. More generally, we

:51:16.:51:20.

are leaving the European Union. In that process, we will fight to put

:51:21.:51:25.

jobs in the economy first, neither will we accept the watering down of

:51:26.:51:29.

rights and standards. If I can say this to the honourable member from

:51:30.:51:34.

North Antrim, we are right to be concerned over that. One example

:51:35.:51:40.

from my past, I took the case of the Eastbourne Dustman all the way to

:51:41.:51:44.

the European Court of Justice about 15 years ago, when, for ten years,

:51:45.:51:54.

writes on transfer under TUPE, and had it not been for those European

:51:55.:51:59.

mechanisms, we would never have seen those rights enforced in this

:52:00.:52:04.

country. We will be leaving the European Union, but we will not

:52:05.:52:08.

accept anything that water down rights and standards. I think he is

:52:09.:52:13.

aware that under the proposed repeal bill, there would be a transposition

:52:14.:52:19.

of European law into UK law under Westminster jurisdiction. Of course,

:52:20.:52:23.

that would be, on the face of it, to include the rights to which he

:52:24.:52:28.

referred. I think that is understood on his own front bench, is it not?

:52:29.:52:34.

The rights in question under TUPE are guaranteed in British law. I

:52:35.:52:40.

think what is crucial at the next age, this is not a debate for today,

:52:41.:52:44.

but what is crucial at the next stage is both what happens

:52:45.:52:50.

post-leaving the European Union, in terms of continuation of guarantees

:52:51.:52:54.

certainty for workers and their rights, as well as enforcement

:52:55.:52:56.

mechanisms in the event of there being a dispute.

:52:57.:53:01.

We strongly believe in the importance of a collaborative

:53:02.:53:07.

relationship with the EU, we would no longer be members but it is

:53:08.:53:11.

essential that we are partners. The right honourable member for Stone

:53:12.:53:15.

earlier on referred to the notion of cousins, I sometimes think the way

:53:16.:53:19.

this debate is conducted by some in government, it is more akin to an

:53:20.:53:23.

estranged couple in a difficult divorce. At the next age,

:53:24.:53:28.

partnership will be absolutely essential which is one of the

:53:29.:53:34.

principles enshrined in the Bill. It benefits Britain and on key issues,

:53:35.:53:38.

like cross-border security or in this case cross-border trade. As we

:53:39.:53:44.

leave the EU it is essential that we do put in place new and sensible

:53:45.:53:48.

arrangements. We support the bill both because it is right, and

:53:49.:53:53.

because I agree with the right honourable lady from Chelmsford who

:53:54.:54:00.

I think I just promoted,! I agree with the honourable lady for

:54:01.:54:07.

Chelmsford, if I can use my word, not the Hayes, it amounts to the

:54:08.:54:11.

same as her words, it would be wrong to nip it on -- nit-pick on a

:54:12.:54:19.

measure of this kind. In terms of the substantive issues, on the

:54:20.:54:23.

participation of Albania and Serbia on the work of the agency for

:54:24.:54:29.

fundamental rights, we have heard, I think, powerful contributions,

:54:30.:54:31.

including from the honourable member for Henley, as to the origins of the

:54:32.:54:37.

F RA and why it is so important, not least because it was an initiative

:54:38.:54:43.

born out of war in continental Europe, and the role played over

:54:44.:54:50.

many years in terms of advising on fundamental rights and

:54:51.:54:54.

discrimination, access to justice, xenophobia and racism, it is right

:54:55.:55:00.

that we should have an agency promoting those principles, rights

:55:01.:55:04.

and values throughout Europe. It's all the more important now. It is

:55:05.:55:13.

deeply welcome that we have both Serbia and Albania locked into that

:55:14.:55:18.

process at the next ages. Serbia, in the not too distant past, backed by

:55:19.:55:25.

war, and the country of Albania, that worse for many years under a

:55:26.:55:31.

totalitarian regime. Both candidates for the future of the EU, for the

:55:32.:55:38.

European Union to decide, both will contribute and participate to the F

:55:39.:55:43.

RA, the proposal in question has been cleared by the European

:55:44.:55:47.

Scrutiny Committee and the Lords Europe select committee, we

:55:48.:55:50.

therefore strongly select what is in the bill today. If I may move onto

:55:51.:55:55.

the EU Canada competition agreement, the honourable lady for Chelmsford

:55:56.:56:02.

was right, it's important if one has global free trade that we have

:56:03.:56:06.

effective mechanisms to combat anti-competitive behaviour. That has

:56:07.:56:10.

to be in the best interests of consumers, companies, and crucially

:56:11.:56:14.

also in needs to be effectively endorsed. I can make one other point

:56:15.:56:21.

in relation specifically to Canada. The honourable member for Brigg and

:56:22.:56:24.

Goole was right when he referred to the historical relationship we have

:56:25.:56:29.

with Canada and looking to the future, in his words, the economic

:56:30.:56:33.

good sense to develop that good relationship with Canada. As far as

:56:34.:56:40.

the proposal is concerned, we have in place existing relations, what is

:56:41.:56:45.

being proposed to extend the plans in evidence and information on both

:56:46.:56:51.

sides, through the course of investigations, to make the obvious

:56:52.:56:54.

point that it is the absence of such a power which can be imperative...

:56:55.:57:02.

An impediment to effective enforcement and if what is being

:57:03.:57:06.

proposed is right and similar arrangements are in place as the

:57:07.:57:09.

Minister referred to earlier with other countries out the EU, such as

:57:10.:57:17.

Switzerland. We support what is contained in the bill. If I may say

:57:18.:57:23.

this in conclusion, questions over and above what the honourable member

:57:24.:57:31.

for Sefton Central opposed earlier on, one is what would be the

:57:32.:57:35.

transitional arrangements, because crucially, as we stand now,

:57:36.:57:40.

companies operating in the EU are still subject to the same rules on

:57:41.:57:48.

mergers. In future, the EU will share information about UK companies

:57:49.:57:54.

with Canada, but will not share the information it receives from Canada

:57:55.:58:00.

about the UK with the UK. It poses a big question about what happens

:58:01.:58:03.

post-Brexit, in terms of transitional arrangements and how it

:58:04.:58:10.

works in future. The other question is, in relation to the agency for

:58:11.:58:14.

fundamental rights, I would ask the Minister to clarify what will be the

:58:15.:58:19.

ongoing relationship with the agency? Fall of the reasons I've

:58:20.:58:24.

spelt out, it is critical that we are part of a pan-European mechanism

:58:25.:58:31.

which is about human rights and combating racism and xenophobia,

:58:32.:58:35.

never more important in the current climate than it has been in the

:58:36.:58:45.

past. Minister for the house, briefly? Mr Speaker, I'm grateful to

:58:46.:58:49.

have the opportunity with the Leader of the House to respond to the

:58:50.:58:57.

debate. The bill will approve four draft European Council decisions,

:58:58.:58:59.

first the participation of the Republic of Albania and Serbia in

:59:00.:59:05.

the fundamental rights agency, and the Republic of Albania and Serbia

:59:06.:59:10.

both want to become members of the EU. This measure does not extend the

:59:11.:59:16.

competence of the fundamental rights agency, and Albania and Serbia

:59:17.:59:19.

should be supported to increase their human rights awareness and

:59:20.:59:25.

promotion of fundamental rights in their countries. I was pleased at

:59:26.:59:30.

the support given by the house to that position. If I may deal with a

:59:31.:59:37.

few questions, raised by honourable member is on those two decisions,

:59:38.:59:44.

firstly, honourable member is for South Suffolk and my honourable

:59:45.:59:48.

friend for Stone, for whom I must express appreciation of his work by

:59:49.:59:52.

chairing the scrutiny committee, on the issue of the impact on Serbia's

:59:53.:59:57.

war crimes record, the decisions will allow Serbia to have access to

:59:58.:00:02.

the expertise of the agency, and allow data on human rights in Serbia

:00:03.:00:06.

to be gathered and shared, providing steps to improve Serbia's human

:00:07.:00:13.

rights protections, and the UK continues to urge Serbia to meet

:00:14.:00:21.

obligations, to cooperate fully with the tribunal. The honourable member

:00:22.:00:30.

for Sefton Central asked about the UK remaining part of the FRA post

:00:31.:00:36.

Brexit and the government is looking at the UK's relationship with all EU

:00:37.:00:41.

bodies including the fundamental rights agency as part of the exit

:00:42.:00:46.

negotiations. My honourable friend, the member for Cheltenham, made the

:00:47.:00:51.

point that FRA was completely distinct from the European

:00:52.:00:56.

Convention of human rights and our membership of that convention

:00:57.:01:01.

continues post-Brexit. My honourable friend for Henley spoke with

:01:02.:01:04.

considerable authority on the work of the Council of Europe, on which

:01:05.:01:09.

he is a member. And the overlap between that body and the FRA. I

:01:10.:01:14.

share his hopes and belief that the valuable work of the Council of

:01:15.:01:17.

Europe will continue long after Brexit. Turning now to the

:01:18.:01:27.

cooperation agreement between the EU and Canada on the competition

:01:28.:01:32.

enforcement, the UK has a large number of companies well placed to

:01:33.:01:36.

compete internationally in a system of genuine, free and open

:01:37.:01:39.

competition. The agreement will help ensure this by facilitating

:01:40.:01:46.

enforcement between international cartels. There are a number of

:01:47.:01:51.

questions in this area. First of all, the honourable member for

:01:52.:01:55.

Birmingham, Erdington and the honourable member for Inverness

:01:56.:02:00.

asked about UK companies continuing to be subject to the EU, it has

:02:01.:02:10.

jurisdiction over the European single market and that will continue

:02:11.:02:14.

after we leave the EU and UK companies will have to comply with

:02:15.:02:18.

EU competition law, when they operate within the EU single market.

:02:19.:02:27.

Just as US, or Canadian companies, do. The honourable member for Henley

:02:28.:02:33.

asked on the difference, sorry, I've already covered that point, the key

:02:34.:02:38.

point about the Council of Europe is about standard-setting and

:02:39.:02:47.

overseeing these matters. We welcome greater cooperation on international

:02:48.:02:51.

competition enforcement, and the honourable member for Sefton Central

:02:52.:02:59.

asked after EU except, will we have to continue to share information

:03:00.:03:06.

received from Canada within the UK, between the EU and UK. The UK

:03:07.:03:11.

Government will be free to enter into its own arrangements, to share

:03:12.:03:15.

information with Canada directly. Any agreement will need to be

:03:16.:03:18.

negotiated between the UK and Canada for the future. The honourable

:03:19.:03:25.

gentleman also asked about international agreements after the

:03:26.:03:29.

UK leaves the EU. And whether this agreement provides a model. The UK

:03:30.:03:36.

well, as I said, be free to enter international agreements on

:03:37.:03:40.

competition and we believe this is a good model. So, all in all, Mr

:03:41.:03:46.

Speaker, we've had a good debate, on the cooperation of international

:03:47.:03:49.

competition enforcement which will ensure that there is a level playing

:03:50.:03:53.

field for British business to continue to compete upon, and I

:03:54.:03:58.

think I've answered most of the points raised by honourable member

:03:59.:04:02.

's during this debate, and I commend the bill to the house. The question

:04:03.:04:07.

is that the bill is read a second time. I think the ice have it.

:04:08.:04:17.

Permission to moved formally? As many of the opinion saying aye? The

:04:18.:04:26.

ayes have it. The business of the house select committee 's motion,

:04:27.:04:36.

and we... Minister to move. On the order paper. As many are off the

:04:37.:04:44.

opinion same aye? I think the ayes habit. -- the ayes habit. We come to

:04:45.:04:55.

these notions that I must advise will be debated together. It is

:04:56.:05:03.

helpful to know that if the motion on allocation of chairs is agreed

:05:04.:05:08.

to, the ballot for the election of select committee chairs, including

:05:09.:05:13.

the chair of the backbench business committee, will be held on Wednesday

:05:14.:05:19.

the 12th of July, from 10am to 4pm, it in committee room eight. I hope

:05:20.:05:25.

this meets with the approval of colleagues, it seems to be important

:05:26.:05:29.

that we get on with the business of electing chairs of select committees

:05:30.:05:33.

and as soon as possible with the election of parties by members of

:05:34.:05:37.

these committees, in the interest of Parliament and the interest of good

:05:38.:05:41.

government, that these mechanisms are established without further

:05:42.:05:46.

delay. Nominations will open as soon as the motion is agreed, and may be

:05:47.:05:52.

submitted in the table office of the procedural hub in Portcullis House.

:05:53.:05:56.

Nominations will close at 3pm on Friday the 7th of July. To be met

:05:57.:06:00.

with more details about the elections, they will be made

:06:01.:06:05.

available to members and published on the intranet. Just before I

:06:06.:06:08.

called the deputy leader of the house, literally itching to favour

:06:09.:06:13.

the house with his eloquences, colleagues can note I must add one

:06:14.:06:19.

other point. Specifically, I must tell the house I've had a request,

:06:20.:06:23.

perfectly properly had a request, from the honourable gentleman, the

:06:24.:06:31.

member for Harwich and North Essex, for clarification of the application

:06:32.:06:35.

of standing order 122 letter A, for his position of the public

:06:36.:06:43.

administration committee in the 2010-2015 Parliament and of the

:06:44.:06:48.

Constitutional affairs committee since 2015. Having taken

:06:49.:06:52.

comprehensive advice from the clerks, and reflected on the matter

:06:53.:06:55.

myself, I've decided the eight-year term limit does apply to the

:06:56.:07:02.

honourable member, on the basis that the committee which he chaired

:07:03.:07:08.

between 2015 and 2017 was in effect. The same committee as in 2010 to

:07:09.:07:14.

2015 albeit with an extended remit. That is in common with several other

:07:15.:07:21.

chairs, if re-elected next week, the term of office would expire eight

:07:22.:07:26.

years after his election in 2010 on the 10th of June 20 18. Others are

:07:27.:07:31.

free to put their names forward in the ballot and if elected, they can

:07:32.:07:35.

have existing terms of the order amended or repealed, is the matter

:07:36.:07:41.

within the select committee on procedure. My responsibility is not

:07:42.:07:45.

to speculate as to what the standing order may be in the future, but what

:07:46.:07:52.

a proper interpretation of it now means. That is what I was asked to

:07:53.:07:57.

do and that is what I have done. I hope that is clear to colleagues. I

:07:58.:08:02.

called the deputy Leader of the House, Mr Michael Ellis, to move the

:08:03.:08:03.

first motion. I beg to move the motions on the

:08:04.:08:12.

order paper standing in the name of the leader of the House and the

:08:13.:08:16.

Prime Minister and the leaders of the three opposition parties. Motion

:08:17.:08:20.

number four will have the effect of making the women and equality is

:08:21.:08:25.

committee a permanent select committee of this House. Motion

:08:26.:08:31.

number five serves to exiting the European Union in this Parliament as

:08:32.:08:35.

exactly as the last Parliament. Motion number six allocates the

:08:36.:08:40.

chairs of select committees as within the parties and buy you Mr

:08:41.:08:46.

Speaker, to reflect the party balance in this House. I beg to

:08:47.:08:54.

move. The question is the motion on the women inequalities committee as

:08:55.:09:03.

on the order paper. Kat Smith? No. Formally. Mrs Maria Miller. I wanted

:09:04.:09:11.

to make a submission in support of this motion and welcome the fact the

:09:12.:09:17.

government has decided to make track permanent. It was a recommendation

:09:18.:09:21.

made by the committee before the general election and something that

:09:22.:09:27.

my right honourable friend the member for Aylesbury undertook to

:09:28.:09:31.

put on a permanent footing and I really welcome this measure. I think

:09:32.:09:35.

the committee has proven its worth. The scope of the work that is being

:09:36.:09:40.

undertaken, everything from looking at transgender rights for the first

:09:41.:09:44.

time on the floor of the House of Commons, through to what we did on

:09:45.:09:50.

Brexit on equalities issues. I am glad to see the women and equalities

:09:51.:09:55.

select committee retains his name as set out. It does look at those

:09:56.:10:01.

issues which are the responsibilities of ministers,

:10:02.:10:04.

including women's issues and equality issues as well. Can I come

:10:05.:10:11.

in drawing my comments to a close, raised two particular points, which

:10:12.:10:15.

may be issues other past select committee chairs have equal

:10:16.:10:22.

questions about? First, I would really like to know from my

:10:23.:10:26.

honourable friend sitting on the front bench, the financial support

:10:27.:10:29.

for select committees are going to be sufficient for the scrutiny that

:10:30.:10:34.

is required of government policy at such an important time in our

:10:35.:10:38.

parliament's history? We need to make sure select committees,

:10:39.:10:43.

including the women and equalities select committee have the financial

:10:44.:10:47.

resources and the manpower resources they require. Secondly, that the

:10:48.:10:54.

proceedings of committees are treated with respect? Both in terms

:10:55.:10:59.

of the need for committees to be able to sit in perhaps protected

:11:00.:11:03.

time, when the House is sitting, so they are not unnecessarily curtailed

:11:04.:11:11.

or interrupted, particularly when they are gathering evidence. I think

:11:12.:11:14.

also in the role of committees, such as the women and equalities select

:11:15.:11:20.

committee, in taking the work of this Parliament around the world. To

:11:21.:11:26.

be able to do that with the help and support of the government whips and

:11:27.:11:32.

also the opposition whips as well. I will draw my remarks to a close

:11:33.:11:37.

then, Mr Speaker but reiterate my thanks to this government who have

:11:38.:11:39.

done more than any other to support the establishment of a scrutiny

:11:40.:11:44.

committee for women and equalities and I think for that, they should be

:11:45.:11:54.

applauded. Harriet Harman. I beg your pardon. We will hear from Mr

:11:55.:12:04.

Wishart first. I don't want to detain the right honourable lady for

:12:05.:12:09.

very long. Just a couple of remarks about the orders on the paper. I

:12:10.:12:14.

would like to support motions number four and five the women and

:12:15.:12:19.

equalities and the European Union committees. They are a welcome

:12:20.:12:22.

addition to the select committees we have. Also your remarks, we should

:12:23.:12:29.

make sure the election of chairs is as speedily as possible on the

:12:30.:12:33.

membership of committees, it is important we get these committees up

:12:34.:12:37.

and running soap government departments are properly scrutinised

:12:38.:12:41.

for the work they undertake. I know that the setup of the select

:12:42.:12:46.

committees will be five Conservative members, five Labour members and one

:12:47.:12:49.

Scottish National Party member as the ordinary membership of select

:12:50.:12:54.

committees. It is something we do support. I know there will probably

:12:55.:13:02.

be a more detailed conversation, to put it as elegantly as I can about

:13:03.:13:06.

the life span of the House committees. Nine Conservative

:13:07.:13:16.

members, seven Labour committee members and two SNP membership, for

:13:17.:13:25.

the standing membership, I know this is something that perhaps as a

:13:26.:13:28.

little bit of concern for the government in order to get things

:13:29.:13:33.

through but I hope any proposal on suggestion is put to the floor of

:13:34.:13:36.

the House so it will be properly debated and would be stitched up

:13:37.:13:41.

behind closed doors because it is important the standing committees of

:13:42.:13:44.

the House is on the floor of the House and all members of Parliament

:13:45.:13:48.

have an opportunity to contribute to that. You are right, there was a

:13:49.:13:53.

conversation about the tenure of the chairs of select committees, where

:13:54.:13:58.

there was concern raised about the eight-year rule of the two

:13:59.:14:02.

parliaments which impacted on two or three select committee chairs. My

:14:03.:14:06.

understanding is this was passed to the procedure committee to do a

:14:07.:14:12.

brief report about these issues. I hope they come forward with that at

:14:13.:14:18.

an early opportunity. With those remarks, can I say I very much

:14:19.:14:21.

support what is in these motions and I think we should get the select

:14:22.:14:25.

committees up and running as quickly as possible and it is down to the

:14:26.:14:30.

good business of scrutinising this government and government

:14:31.:14:36.

departments. Harriet Harman. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the

:14:37.:14:40.

deputy leader for bringing this motion to the House and I strongly

:14:41.:14:43.

supported and in particular I welcome putting the women and

:14:44.:14:47.

equality select committee on a permanent footing. I was leader of

:14:48.:14:51.

the House back in the day and I should have done this, but I find

:14:52.:14:57.

myself congratulating, I am baffled, but it congratulating him for

:14:58.:14:59.

bringing this forward and all credit to the government for doing that. It

:15:00.:15:05.

was first established in 2015, the women and equalities select

:15:06.:15:08.

committee but with women from all sides of the House and indeed three

:15:09.:15:12.

men on the committee, it has covered a wide area of work from Brexit

:15:13.:15:17.

negotiations to women being forced to wear high heels. I think it is

:15:18.:15:23.

more than showed, justifies being put on a permanent footing alongside

:15:24.:15:27.

the other select committees, because of the strong committee leadership

:15:28.:15:31.

been given to the select committee by the honourable member for

:15:32.:15:36.

Basingstoke in just the two short years she has been chairing it. I am

:15:37.:15:42.

sure nobody will be saying, as some people will be saying outside, it's

:15:43.:15:47.

all not necessary, we are all not equal now while I wish I were the

:15:48.:15:52.

case, we are all equal now. I wish that were the case, it is not true.

:15:53.:15:57.

We have made a rapid and immense progress, but there is still much

:15:58.:16:03.

further to go. Despite having a woman Prime Minister, still most

:16:04.:16:07.

decisions, whether it is commercial decisions, decisions in the private

:16:08.:16:10.

sector or the public sector, are made by men. You only have to look

:16:11.:16:16.

at the Brexit negotiating team. God help us. Eight of them, seven men

:16:17.:16:21.

and one woman. Why couldn't they have selected that team on merit?

:16:22.:16:29.

Select committees are members working together across the House.

:16:30.:16:35.

Not because we are all the same, because we all do have profound

:16:36.:16:39.

differences in the different parties, but in recognition of where

:16:40.:16:43.

we do agree, it makes sense to work together and it makes no sense not

:16:44.:16:49.

to. All sides of the House have expressed commitment on childcare

:16:50.:16:51.

and I know a number of select committees will be concerned about

:16:52.:16:56.

this. But let's see how it is actually working out in practice.

:16:57.:17:01.

This is a particular issue for women because of the remaining, persistent

:17:02.:17:04.

unequal division of labour in the home. There is a shared commitment

:17:05.:17:09.

across the House in tackling domestic violence, and rightly so.

:17:10.:17:15.

The daily toll of black guys, punctured lungs, broken ribs, the

:17:16.:17:20.

weekly toll of murdered women shames our society. But we have to be

:17:21.:17:26.

certain that we don't see things set back with cuts to the police, cuts

:17:27.:17:31.

to the courts, cuts to councils and the prosecution service, potentially

:17:32.:17:36.

making women less safe. I think we have got a shared commitment across

:17:37.:17:40.

the House for women's income inequality. In 2005, women's income

:17:41.:17:48.

on average per year, was 55% of men's. By 2010, it had risen to 70%.

:17:49.:18:04.

But I suspect it has now stalled. What I would like to see is agenda

:18:05.:18:07.

impact assessment brought forward to the House with the red book at the

:18:08.:18:10.

same time as the Chancellor publishes the budget statement. I

:18:11.:18:12.

know we have a shared commitment across the House to tackle rape and

:18:13.:18:14.

sexual offences. Most sexual offences are not reported. We know

:18:15.:18:18.

that fear that she will be blamed prevents many women going to court,

:18:19.:18:22.

let alone giving evidence. So I hope that across the parties, we can

:18:23.:18:27.

change the law to make it clear that what ever your past sexual history,

:18:28.:18:32.

it's not relevant as to whether you consented in this particular case

:18:33.:18:36.

and your past sexual history should never be dragged through the courts.

:18:37.:18:40.

I hope we will reverse the Ched Evans ruling. There are more women

:18:41.:18:48.

in this House and never before. 208. I am especially proud of the 119

:18:49.:18:53.

Labour women. And I warmly welcome all of them, the newly elected and

:18:54.:18:59.

the re-elected. But in the House as a whole, we are still outnumbered

:19:00.:19:08.

2-1 and also we last less long than our male colleagues. Not because

:19:09.:19:13.

we're not as tough, durable and as excellent as the men, clearly we

:19:14.:19:18.

are, but we are more likely to be in marginal seats. Therefore there is a

:19:19.:19:23.

turnover of women which there isn't in men. Therefore, women in this

:19:24.:19:29.

House, are not only outnumbered numerically, but also are less in

:19:30.:19:33.

seniority. I think the women inequalities committee will show

:19:34.:19:39.

women in this House, working together to highlight persisting

:19:40.:19:43.

inequalities in this country and will insist we make more progress.

:19:44.:19:47.

So I am pleased to support this motion. Andrew Percy. I wasn't

:19:48.:19:55.

intending to speak on this particular motion, but then I heard

:19:56.:19:59.

the speech of the honourable lady and wanted to agree with some of

:20:00.:20:03.

what she had to say and also pick her up on 12 points. Before that I

:20:04.:20:08.

will stop by greeting with the commentary of other members,

:20:09.:20:13.

particularly the member for Perth in that I hope we can approach this new

:20:14.:20:18.

arrangement of a balanced parliament of a more sensible man less partisan

:20:19.:20:24.

way and that will be the responsibility of those members who

:20:25.:20:30.

sit on those committees. It is important we get these committees

:20:31.:20:33.

established and we get the chairs in place and get the members are

:20:34.:20:40.

elected. I know when I served on the Northern Ireland committee, the

:20:41.:20:43.

Health Select Committee and the regulatory reform committee, how

:20:44.:20:47.

difficult it can be. I am not making a pitch to be on any of those, but

:20:48.:20:54.

it is important to reform. I also agreed with a great deal of what the

:20:55.:20:59.

right honourable lady the Camberwell and Peckham said with regard to the

:21:00.:21:03.

women's inequalities committee. I am proud that it has been established

:21:04.:21:09.

under this party and I'm proud that it is the Conservative Government

:21:10.:21:12.

that not only has a female Prime Minister, the second one of course,

:21:13.:21:17.

women don't do quite a good at being elected to be leader of the party

:21:18.:21:23.

opposite. But I'm glad this is on a permanent footing. When we talk

:21:24.:21:27.

about equalities in this House, it is not just about gender. There are

:21:28.:21:32.

many others who come from nontraditional, poorer backgrounds,

:21:33.:21:36.

who perhaps think the houses and always representative of those of us

:21:37.:21:41.

who come from more challenged backgrounds. And replacing a man

:21:42.:21:47.

with a middle class or upper middle-class woman perhaps isn't

:21:48.:21:51.

perhaps doing a great deal for quality. I think we should always be

:21:52.:22:00.

cautious of the fact that people... The right honourable lady doesn't

:22:01.:22:07.

like this point I'm making but it is about backgrounds and where they

:22:08.:22:11.

come from and their work history. If I had stood up and made the comments

:22:12.:22:16.

she made, in a moment I will give way, but if I stood up and made the

:22:17.:22:20.

comments she had made about their team being put together of seven

:22:21.:22:24.

women and one man and maids disparaging comments, as it came

:22:25.:22:27.

across about the Brexit negotiating team, then I suspect she would be up

:22:28.:22:37.

on her feet having a go. There is a major issue of class inequality in

:22:38.:22:40.

this country and that is why I would like to see this government

:22:41.:22:44.

implement clause one of the equality act which requires all government

:22:45.:22:48.

departments and all public organisations to take into account

:22:49.:22:51.

the importance of narrowing the gap between the top and the bottom in

:22:52.:22:55.

all public policy and operational decisions they make. If they care

:22:56.:23:00.

about class and income inequality, then implement clause one of the

:23:01.:23:01.

equality act. That's why when I was a

:23:02.:23:09.

schoolteacher before I got elected to the parliament, it really irked

:23:10.:23:14.

me that the gap between the top 10% best performing schools and worst

:23:15.:23:19.

performing schools actually got wider and that social mobility also

:23:20.:23:24.

decreased so I would agree with her on that. The point I'm simply making

:23:25.:23:29.

is I don't think it helps the case of equality is to stand up and make

:23:30.:23:36.

what I thought were belittling comments because of the base of its

:23:37.:23:40.

gender. I agree more generally with her point with regards to the women

:23:41.:23:44.

and equality committee under the chairmanship of the right honourable

:23:45.:23:50.

lady for Basingstoke but I do hope the committee will also understand

:23:51.:23:55.

there is... This is a huge subject and there are huge inequality that

:23:56.:24:03.

have existed for decades. It is an important piece of work but one

:24:04.:24:08.

where it is better if people in pursuing the agenda of wanting to

:24:09.:24:11.

close the gap don't make inflammatory comments on the route

:24:12.:24:20.

to that. Because, Mr Deputy Speaker, I agree with the Speaker's drive to

:24:21.:24:25.

modernise and rebalance the House, the power it has against the

:24:26.:24:29.

executive, I don't wish to detain us any further from approving the

:24:30.:24:35.

motion which will re-establish the select committees which have such an

:24:36.:24:39.

important part to play in that objective. Just a couple of words on

:24:40.:24:47.

motion four. I commend the Government for bringing it forward.

:24:48.:24:51.

It's right that the commitment the Government gave during the last

:24:52.:24:54.

parliament but the women and equalities select committee is a

:24:55.:24:59.

statutory basis and to do so on this occasion is the right thing to do as

:25:00.:25:05.

well. As a member of the last women and equality select committee within

:25:06.:25:08.

the previous parliament under the brilliant chairmanship of the Member

:25:09.:25:15.

for Basingstoke, I think it was a real constitutional innovation and

:25:16.:25:17.

the significance of that committee was not just a committee that

:25:18.:25:22.

produced reports, it was significant within its presence within our

:25:23.:25:26.

constitutional life as well, a point made many times by people who came

:25:27.:25:30.

to visit from other countries who rightly or wrongly looked to the

:25:31.:25:33.

place for leadership on these issues. I've might say one other

:25:34.:25:38.

thing about the Speaker who was not in his place so I feel able to

:25:39.:25:43.

praise him without blushing too much, but I believe his modernising

:25:44.:25:56.

drive has made available... His work on inclusion in particular has been

:25:57.:25:59.

commendable and also created conditions in which we could even

:26:00.:26:03.

last week discuss how this might be put on a statutory basis. One last

:26:04.:26:08.

word as someone who has served on that committee for the last couple

:26:09.:26:12.

of years. Many people would often ask why a straight white man would

:26:13.:26:16.

volunteer or choose to be on that committee and the answer is simple.

:26:17.:26:22.

For as long as women's equality is an issue for women, it's an issue

:26:23.:26:25.

about society and when we seek to hold back 50% of people in our

:26:26.:26:32.

communities, we hold back 100% of our population. For that reason

:26:33.:26:37.

alone, I think the work done by the last Parliamentary women equalities

:26:38.:26:41.

select committee, particularly on bringing women further into politics

:26:42.:26:47.

into our public life, identified significant issues around bullying

:26:48.:26:50.

and intimidation, the sport needs to be put in place even at lower

:26:51.:26:57.

levels. And we had four party leaders or representatives of their

:26:58.:27:02.

party coming to sit before us, all men, underlines the fact there is

:27:03.:27:07.

much further to go. The other area where we struggled was where we

:27:08.:27:10.

looked at flexible working patterns and ways in which we could make the

:27:11.:27:13.

workplace more available to people coming from different backgrounds. I

:27:14.:27:19.

think to be honest we struggled to square the circle on how you do that

:27:20.:27:24.

in areas where it is less easy to do flexible working such as areas of

:27:25.:27:27.

low pay and I know that will be a focus for the committee going

:27:28.:27:32.

forward. I commend this motion, I think it's an excellent innovation

:27:33.:27:35.

and we should be rightly proud in this parliament that we are bringing

:27:36.:27:42.

it forward. Again, I support the motion, I wanted to talk briefly

:27:43.:27:46.

about timetabling as well. It's got the House is moving to collect the

:27:47.:27:50.

chairs of the select committee next week. It doesn't give the House much

:27:51.:27:54.

time to let members of the committees before the summer recess

:27:55.:27:57.

and I think there should be a concern that if members are selected

:27:58.:28:04.

in September, many won't do their work formally until October which

:28:05.:28:09.

will be a gap of five months. In the normal course of Parliament in a

:28:10.:28:12.

Fixed-term Parliaments Act the committees can prepare their

:28:13.:28:15.

workload and work towards the end of the session but because of the

:28:16.:28:19.

nature of the last general election, many committees have had to abruptly

:28:20.:28:24.

stopped their work. If they are looking to pick up some of that work

:28:25.:28:28.

there will be a gap and a change in membership. Committees don't just

:28:29.:28:33.

scrutinise decisions of this House but also outside bodies too. I raise

:28:34.:28:39.

the point now so there can be consideration in the future if there

:28:40.:28:51.

is a way in which new committees can be created without disbanding, and

:28:52.:28:58.

we may have an absence of five months without any committee

:28:59.:29:06.

sitting. To briefly respond to some of the points made, firstly my right

:29:07.:29:10.

honourable friend from Basingstoke, it is I agree is important that

:29:11.:29:14.

financial support is sufficient for proper scrutiny and also Her Majesty

:29:15.:29:18.

's government I can assure her and the House will always respect the

:29:19.:29:21.

work of the committees of this House. They have undoubtedly got

:29:22.:29:33.

stronger. The right honourable lady from Camberwell and Peckham, I would

:29:34.:29:35.

just like to take this opportunity to thank her for her comments about

:29:36.:29:41.

the women's inequality committee being made permanent and commend her

:29:42.:29:47.

for her work over the years. Mr Speaker, I to move.

:29:48.:30:02.

The ayes have it. The next question is on the motion of standing orders,

:30:03.:30:13.

the question is on the motion of the standing orders of the committee on

:30:14.:30:18.

existing European Union, that's on the order paper, is that opinion say

:30:19.:30:26.

aye... On the contrary know. The ayes have it. The question is the

:30:27.:30:33.

motion on select committees allocation of chairs as on the order

:30:34.:30:39.

paper, as many of that opinion say aye... The contrary no. The ayes

:30:40.:30:53.

have it. We now come to the general debate

:30:54.:30:57.

improvements to southern railway. I improvements to

:30:58.:30:58.

now call the secretary of State to now call the secretary of State to

:30:59.:31:00.

move the motion. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. You will recall last

:31:01.:31:05.

summer the southern rail network was already bedevilled by a dispute

:31:06.:31:10.

causing disruption for thousands of people and damaged the economy

:31:11.:31:13.

across the region but it wasn't the only problem is that southern rail

:31:14.:31:17.

faced. Too many infrastructure failures, a lack of joined up

:31:18.:31:22.

management between track and training, as well as the problems

:31:23.:31:26.

most of our commuter rail networks face after attracting more and more

:31:27.:31:30.

passengers each year, far more than it used in the days of British rail.

:31:31.:31:36.

This is a railway line faced and faces a massive capacity challenge,

:31:37.:31:39.

so that was the background to my decision to ask an experienced

:31:40.:31:45.

leader, Chris give, to produce advice for my department on what to

:31:46.:31:48.

do to get things back to normal for passengers. What was behind the poor

:31:49.:31:52.

performance on the route and how we could solve it. I asked Chris Gibb

:31:53.:32:01.

for his advice because he has more than 40 years' worth of experience

:32:02.:32:08.

in the industry. I would like to recognise and thank him for his

:32:09.:32:12.

contribution. His recommendations have already been assessed and 34 of

:32:13.:32:17.

his 38 assessments are already being worked on by my department, the rail

:32:18.:32:23.

industry and GDR who operate Southern, but his findings made

:32:24.:32:27.

clear the industrial action is the main cause of destruction for

:32:28.:32:31.

southern passengers or was last year when things were at their worst. As

:32:32.:32:37.

Southern passengers know how much the rail service has improved,

:32:38.:32:43.

performance has been consistently better since the New Year, the PPN

:32:44.:32:49.

public performance measure is up more than 20 percentage points.

:32:50.:32:54.

That's much better, it's not best, there is a long way still to go but

:32:55.:32:57.

it's clearly much better than it was. So things are getting better

:32:58.:33:01.

for passengers, the railway has been working much better, that's why it

:33:02.:33:07.

is tragic that the union's leaderships now want to carry on a

:33:08.:33:11.

battle which is meaningless and unnecessary. The performance of this

:33:12.:33:15.

railway is only going to carry on improving if industrial action by

:33:16.:33:18.

those unions stops. They seem unwilling to come to the party.

:33:19.:33:24.

Aslef started their overtime ban again last week resulting in

:33:25.:33:28.

Southern passengers having 25% of trains cancelled each day. Just when

:33:29.:33:31.

passengers fought the service was passengers fought the service was

:33:32.:33:46.

are at the mercy of unions. I have called this

:33:47.:33:46.

asked unions many times to call off asked unions

:33:47.:33:47.

the disruption to people's daily lives through this ongoing action.

:33:48.:33:55.

My right honourable friend is well aware of the inconvenience suffered

:33:56.:33:59.

to many on the line because of the strike and the previous strikes. Is

:34:00.:34:10.

he aware of the unions working together being encouraged by the

:34:11.:34:13.

Labour Party or does he see this as a straight interunion rivalry? Let

:34:14.:34:16.

me stress again, I know just how difficult this has been for his

:34:17.:34:20.

constituents and others. Their lives have been disrupted, turned upside

:34:21.:34:24.

down, and a whole variety of different ways and it certainly the

:34:25.:34:27.

case in the other stages the unions looks like they were working

:34:28.:34:33.

together on this. I don't think relations now between the unions are

:34:34.:34:36.

as warm as they once were but I'm clear there is a direct link between

:34:37.:34:40.

the actions of the Labour Party leadership in trying to cause

:34:41.:34:43.

disruption for the Government this summer and the decisions to

:34:44.:34:48.

victories industrial action. It is unacceptable that senior figures in

:34:49.:35:00.

the Labour Party are encouraging trade unions to take action this

:35:01.:35:04.

summer. Is the Secretary of State aware that the president of the RMT

:35:05.:35:07.

has described his objective as speaking to bring down the

:35:08.:35:12.

Government? And what the Secretary of State join me in saying that is

:35:13.:35:15.

an appalling motive for ruining the lives of our constituents? My

:35:16.:35:22.

honourable friend is absolutely right, this is a shocking state of

:35:23.:35:26.

affairs and the reality is there are some thoroughly good people working

:35:27.:35:29.

on our Railways, people who don't agree with the current action,

:35:30.:35:33.

people who want to do the right job for the passenger and their

:35:34.:35:36.

leadership now is leading them up a path they don't want and is in no

:35:37.:35:41.

ones interest. Following on from that point, I'm not sure whether my

:35:42.:35:45.

right honourable friend has heard the statement from Mr Hedley who was

:35:46.:35:49.

on activist within RMT, who was on Russian TV today and said within our

:35:50.:35:55.

rule book and antagonistic relationship, we want to overthrow

:35:56.:35:59.

capitalism and create a socialist form of society... How does that

:36:00.:36:04.

help our passengers? The trouble is this is all about politics, my

:36:05.:36:09.

honourable friend is right, this is not about the interests of

:36:10.:36:12.

passengers getting on with their everyday lives and it's a tragedy.

:36:13.:36:18.

Would he acknowledge Page 93 of the Gibb report has a graph showing that

:36:19.:36:24.

long before the days of the industrial action Southern was the

:36:25.:36:28.

worst performing company? And secondly would he explain why he

:36:29.:36:33.

himself has not got round the table with the unions and GDR? The

:36:34.:36:36.

Government cannot pretend it has nothing to do with them given that

:36:37.:36:42.

Gibb said the Secretary of State is already determining the direction of

:36:43.:36:51.

this dispute. Slightly surprised the honourable lady hasn't declared an

:36:52.:37:02.

interest because she has received motions from the RMT union. Can you

:37:03.:37:06.

please advise the House whether honourable member has an interest

:37:07.:37:11.

declared, for example I understand the honourable member for Brighton

:37:12.:37:14.

Pavilion is sponsored by the RMT union, that she should do so if

:37:15.:37:20.

speaking on this matter. I think it is up to each individual member to

:37:21.:37:23.

note whether they do have an interest or not, and my suggestion

:37:24.:37:28.

is I have no knowledge and I have to be quite honest that any member is

:37:29.:37:31.

sponsored by a trade union under the present legislation.

:37:32.:37:36.

What we have work to do since last year is sort out some of the

:37:37.:37:42.

underlying problems with the management of this railway line,

:37:43.:37:45.

joining of the operation of the track and train, spending more money

:37:46.:37:50.

on infrastructure and performance has been rising steadily since the

:37:51.:37:55.

start of the year. Their dandified range of problems and as I have said

:37:56.:38:00.

to the House, we are working to solve those problems. But it has

:38:01.:38:05.

been made clear, the principal cause of the disruption experienced by

:38:06.:38:09.

constituents and others was the industrial action by the unions. He

:38:10.:38:14.

said those passengers would have experienced a relatively normal

:38:15.:38:19.

service but for that action. If the principal reason for these delays is

:38:20.:38:25.

industrial action, does that not mean that ?300 million the

:38:26.:38:28.

government pledged in January is a waste of money? No, it doesn't.

:38:29.:38:37.

Because one of the things I found most disappointing is the way in

:38:38.:38:41.

which the unions and others, when we have provided additional money for

:38:42.:38:46.

the infrastructure, owned and operated by Network Rail, an

:38:47.:38:50.

additional ?20 million last year and 300 million being spent now to stop

:38:51.:38:54.

things like regular signal failures, or they can do is misrepresent the

:38:55.:38:57.

situation and claim we are giving that money to the train operator.

:38:58.:39:02.

They know it is not true and it is not the case. One part of solving

:39:03.:39:07.

the problem on this railway and make sure it is the good performing

:39:08.:39:10.

railway it hasn't necessarily been, is to spend money on the

:39:11.:39:20.

infrastructure... I will give way. Is surely not part of the problem

:39:21.:39:24.

there are not enough drivers on the network so when drivers don't take

:39:25.:39:30.

voluntary overtime, over which is voluntary, by its very nature, the

:39:31.:39:34.

train operator is unable to operate its trains. It is not the fact that

:39:35.:39:39.

drivers are not doing their volunteering job of taking over

:39:40.:39:43.

time, it is the fact the operator has not trained a peanut drivers and

:39:44.:39:50.

I do declare an interest, I received donations from RMT, because I know

:39:51.:39:57.

to work with unions, we can get a better deal on our railways. The

:39:58.:40:03.

honourable gentleman is quite right, which is why at the start of this

:40:04.:40:06.

year we launched an enormous recruitment programme and there are

:40:07.:40:11.

350 trainees coming to the system at the moment. As he will know, the

:40:12.:40:15.

system of training drivers in this country is tied up in red tape,

:40:16.:40:19.

union agreements and passed working practices so we cannot train drivers

:40:20.:40:25.

as quickly as I would like. I think it is a nonsense that we should

:40:26.:40:29.

depend on overtime to run any part of our rail system on normal working

:40:30.:40:37.

days. We intend, as part of our strategy to end that situation. It

:40:38.:40:40.

will be a bloke to those who depend on overtime as part of their regular

:40:41.:40:47.

income. And the drivers on Southern are not keen to see their overtime

:40:48.:40:59.

disappear. I should say that I have taken a train by Southern for an

:41:00.:41:05.

operation in East Grinstead this morning. I am looking for serious

:41:06.:41:12.

investment in the Redhill area and the track layout in Croydon and

:41:13.:41:17.

Reigate it needs a 12 car platforms so it can get proper services into

:41:18.:41:22.

London. Would he provide the resources for Network Rail simply to

:41:23.:41:28.

do the design, potential design of a proper station at Reigate because it

:41:29.:41:32.

is my constituents who are hit by the fair tariff and the overcrowding

:41:33.:41:37.

on a service with all the faults that have been identified in the

:41:38.:41:45.

report. I can give my honourable friend and assurance I am working

:41:46.:41:49.

with what we will need to do to go forward for the Brighton mainline to

:41:50.:41:52.

make sure it is capable of meeting the challenges of the future. It

:41:53.:41:56.

hasn't had investment over the years. We are spending far more

:41:57.:42:01.

money on the rail network than has been spent in this country for

:42:02.:42:06.

decades. The Brighton mainline is one line that has been neglected, it

:42:07.:42:10.

is a reason why its performance is so poor and it is something we have

:42:11.:42:15.

to change. I thank the Minister for giving way. I was are interested the

:42:16.:42:21.

minister criticised there weren't enough drivers but also how more

:42:22.:42:25.

drivers have been recruited. Chris Gibb, in his report, identified, I

:42:26.:42:32.

understand at least one losing bidder including more drivers and it

:42:33.:42:36.

may have been the case the bidder with the fewest drivers won. So it

:42:37.:42:41.

is complete for the Minister to indicate he didn't realise they won

:42:42.:42:45.

the contract actually on fewer drivers. Surely he must recognise

:42:46.:42:50.

that? I was the Secretary of State at that time. What I am trying to do

:42:51.:42:54.

is sort out the problems I have got now. I am clear we don't have enough

:42:55.:42:59.

drivers on this railway. No dispute, that is why we have launched a big

:43:00.:43:04.

recruitment drive. I wish those drivers who are coming on stream

:43:05.:43:07.

now. But those with links to the unions know it takes about 15 months

:43:08.:43:14.

to train driver. I don't think it is sensible, it shouldn't take that

:43:15.:43:17.

long. But we are bringing onstream new drivers as rapidly as we can

:43:18.:43:20.

within the confines of union agreements. Recommendations, we are

:43:21.:43:27.

doing a whole variety of different things to ensure we deal with the

:43:28.:43:30.

problems on this railway. But I don't think we should forget the

:43:31.:43:35.

core issue that Chris Gibbs's main finding and there are lots of things

:43:36.:43:41.

to learn that everybody, but what he says is the principal cause of the

:43:42.:43:45.

disruption last year which caused misery to so many people was the

:43:46.:43:48.

action of the trade unions. It is the union executives though called

:43:49.:43:53.

strike action and disputes. They can call it. They are disputes between

:43:54.:44:01.

unions... I am grateful. Firstly it is worth reiterating, the one thing

:44:02.:44:07.

Chris Gibb was excluded from investigating in his report was

:44:08.:44:10.

industrial relations. He was not allowed to go into it. He did say

:44:11.:44:16.

that has been the single greatest cause of short-term inconvenience.

:44:17.:44:19.

He also said under the section of the report which is titled, How Did

:44:20.:44:27.

It Get To This Point? He said, I do not believe any single party has

:44:28.:44:32.

been the cause. Can I beg, on behalf of passengers, we get beyond the

:44:33.:44:37.

finger-pointing of this debate. And we all act with a degree of

:44:38.:44:42.

humility. Every single party bears responsibility for where we are

:44:43.:44:46.

today, from the unions to the franchises and government. Can he

:44:47.:44:49.

accept his own responsibility, accurate humility and say what... We

:44:50.:44:56.

all want to speak and I am not getting out anybody in particular,

:44:57.:45:00.

but if we had short interventions, everybody will get to speak. The

:45:01.:45:06.

Secretary of State. We talk about where we are now. Two weeks ago we

:45:07.:45:10.

had a railway that was performing better, a service that most people

:45:11.:45:13.

using it say was better than last year. We had a joined a management

:45:14.:45:18.

structure between track and trained operator. We had a programme of

:45:19.:45:22.

ongoing spending to try and remove those perennial breakdowns that

:45:23.:45:27.

cause frustration, the signal failure and points failure and the

:45:28.:45:32.

rest. And then lo and behold, unnecessarily we have strike action

:45:33.:45:35.

threatened, work to rule taking place against the things the unions

:45:36.:45:40.

have already been doing for the past six months, to be working well and

:45:41.:45:44.

deliver improvements. We have something that was getting better

:45:45.:45:47.

after a lot of work by a lot of people and it is a tragedy we are

:45:48.:45:52.

taking a step backwards. If he wants this railway line to get better,

:45:53.:46:00.

please talk to his friends in the unions and say, you don't need to do

:46:01.:46:03.

this. It is the wrong thing to do and it must stop. I will give way.

:46:04.:46:08.

Does he not agreed me, what ever the union is concerned about, the only

:46:09.:46:12.

way to resolve their concerns is get back round the table overtime bans

:46:13.:46:15.

on strike action will not resolve it and it makes life worse for

:46:16.:46:20.

passengers. I agree with that. What I find battling over the pay deal is

:46:21.:46:28.

that Aslef are balloting for industrial action on a 24% pay rise

:46:29.:46:34.

including productivity changes that they have accepted on the other part

:46:35.:46:39.

of the company on the Thames Link and great Northern links. Why would

:46:40.:46:42.

they accept the deal in one part of the company and threaten strike

:46:43.:46:49.

action and another part. Most of us look at the situation, railway line

:46:50.:46:53.

getting better, things on the men, ideal most people would say is

:46:54.:46:57.

completely generous, which has been accepted by the union and the other

:46:58.:47:01.

part of the company, why on earth would this be returning to a

:47:02.:47:07.

situation of industrial action. I give away one more time. Thank you.

:47:08.:47:18.

Why is it the Secretary of State can't go out publicly and say to

:47:19.:47:22.

both unions and the train operator, let's meet together? With no

:47:23.:47:32.

preconditions to negotiate this. What is it that the Secretary of

:47:33.:47:41.

State wants to meet the union separately. We had constructive

:47:42.:47:46.

talks earlier this year. I will pay tribute to the leader of Aslef the

:47:47.:47:49.

way they conducted themselves in January and February. It is a matter

:47:50.:47:54.

of disappointment in our they have returned to militancy when I thought

:47:55.:47:57.

there was constructive dialogue taking place. Those talks happen,

:47:58.:48:02.

they were facilitated by the General secretary of the TUC and a senior

:48:03.:48:07.

rail executive. We reached an agreement which did not pass the

:48:08.:48:11.

referendum. There was an offer on the table for the stuff. That offer

:48:12.:48:16.

with a substantial pay upgrade, productivity improvements, that has

:48:17.:48:19.

been acceptable to the unions on Thames Ling and great Northern. It

:48:20.:48:24.

is a disappointment we cannot deal with this issue once and for all. He

:48:25.:48:30.

will be aware this morning, several of us across the House met

:48:31.:48:34.

representatives from the RMT. I have to say, at the end of the meeting,

:48:35.:48:39.

it perplexed us as to why still no deal has been done, given the very

:48:40.:48:43.

small number of trains which have been leaving without that second

:48:44.:48:51.

person on board. The very narrow difference between GT are and the

:48:52.:48:56.

unions on how one preaches that. There did seem to be some union

:48:57.:49:00.

enmity going on as a reason for prolonging this strike. Can we not

:49:01.:49:04.

just get all of them around the table, bang some heads together and

:49:05.:49:08.

get our constituents are train service that stops disrupting their

:49:09.:49:14.

lives? There is no reason why talks cannot start again tomorrow. Come

:49:15.:49:18.

back round the table. They are trying to turn the clock back. There

:49:19.:49:22.

have been sensible arrangements in place for years that does not

:49:23.:49:27.

require a train to be cancelled if the previous member of staff has

:49:28.:49:31.

been delayed. Are we going to modernise are ways or not? Are ways

:49:32.:49:38.

are packed, we need to look for smart use of technology, smart ways

:49:39.:49:44.

of working and we need to invest in infrastructure to make sure it is

:49:45.:49:48.

reliable. Those are the things we want to do, those are the things we

:49:49.:49:54.

plan to do. The union should stop fighting, change and modernisation.

:49:55.:49:57.

Nobody is losing their jobs, nobody is having their pay cut, and I think

:49:58.:50:02.

we will need more customer service staff in the future, rather than

:50:03.:50:07.

fewer. I am not in the business of removing staff that work with

:50:08.:50:10.

customers, but we need the freedom to adapt, develop and equip itself

:50:11.:50:13.

for the challenges of the future. This dispute is all about preventing

:50:14.:50:21.

that from happening. It is about retaining union abilities to hold

:50:22.:50:25.

the railways. It has been a tragedy for the people of the Southern rail

:50:26.:50:34.

way. Just as we thought the services were getting better, it started

:50:35.:50:39.

again. Stop doing this to the unions, call of action and we will

:50:40.:50:45.

talk to you again. The question is as on the order paper. Andy

:50:46.:50:51.

Macdonald. May I make it clear from the outset, I am a proud member of

:50:52.:50:55.

the labour and trade union movement and I am happy to declare the

:50:56.:50:59.

support I have received from all three trade unions in the rail

:51:00.:51:05.

industry. I am grateful for this opportunity to debate things in the

:51:06.:51:09.

Gibbs' Report. It should be noted, this debate should have taken six

:51:10.:51:13.

months ago when the report was finished and presented to the

:51:14.:51:18.

Secretary of State. Unfortunately the Transport Secretary decided to

:51:19.:51:21.

sit on the report for six months and wait until after the general

:51:22.:51:24.

election before publishing it, denying this place and most

:51:25.:51:30.

importantly, denying passengers the opportunity to scrutinise its

:51:31.:51:32.

assessment into the Southern rail fiasco. The secretary of state

:51:33.:51:38.

shouldn't bury reports until after a general election when passengers

:51:39.:51:41.

deserve the opportunity to see the findings immediately. Last week, the

:51:42.:51:48.

Association of British commuters went to the High Court seeking a

:51:49.:51:55.

judicial review of the government's handling of Southern, motivated by

:51:56.:52:01.

the Transport Secretary's refusal to assess the claims of Southern, who

:52:02.:52:04.

are questing they may not be found in breach of their contracts for

:52:05.:52:09.

their abysmal performance, the worst in the country. These claims were

:52:10.:52:15.

made in April 2016, over a year ago. The High Court of Mao ordered the

:52:16.:52:19.

Secretary of State to produce a report into Southern rail within 14

:52:20.:52:26.

days. Long-suffering passengers shouldn't have to resort to

:52:27.:52:29.

crowdfunding for legal action to seek accountability and the

:52:30.:52:33.

secretary of state should not have to be dragged, kicking and screaming

:52:34.:52:41.

by the High Court to do the job he was appointed to do so. Would he

:52:42.:52:48.

just confirm we won the case? Perhaps he would have to confirm he

:52:49.:52:53.

has been ordered to produce a report within 14 days, which he wouldn't

:52:54.:52:58.

have done otherwise? And crucially, the section of the Gibbs' Report

:52:59.:53:02.

which is most informative, recommendations between the

:53:03.:53:11.

agreement has been redacted. The Secretary of State has prevented us

:53:12.:53:13.

from seeing the part of report which would give us greater details on the

:53:14.:53:18.

botched franchise design of which his department is responsible, the

:53:19.:53:22.

nature of the agreement with GTR which has been cloaked in secrecy

:53:23.:53:25.

and the changes that Chris Gibb has recommended. The Secretary of State

:53:26.:53:31.

has redacted the parts of the report that would present the greatest

:53:32.:53:33.

political difficulties or his government if they were released.

:53:34.:53:41.

He is right when he highlights it isn't just the issues of industrial

:53:42.:53:47.

relations, the Gibb report clearly identifies failures to accurately

:53:48.:53:53.

report numbers of drivers, to train and recruit drivers, anticipate

:53:54.:53:56.

turnover with any accuracy, plan for the impact of infrastructure

:53:57.:54:00.

enhancements, account for changes in Network Rail, account the timetable

:54:01.:54:05.

expansion, get the right trains in the right places and cater for

:54:06.:54:09.

growth and demand and overcrowded stations. But turning to the issue

:54:10.:54:15.

of industrial action, Mr Deputy Speaker, I don't recall the

:54:16.:54:18.

Transport Secretary having done anything other than oppose every

:54:19.:54:21.

single piece of industrial action and it's absolutely wrong for the

:54:22.:54:27.

Secretary of State to attack the men and women who operate our railways

:54:28.:54:31.

whilst washing his hands entirely of the collapse of industrial

:54:32.:54:40.

relations. The buck... Happy too. Aslef drivers have been offered a

:54:41.:54:47.

26% pay increase taking their pay from 51,000 to 63,000 for a four day

:54:48.:54:51.

week. If that isn't a generous offer, I would like to know what is.

:54:52.:54:59.

He has laid bare a failure to understand what this is about, it

:55:00.:55:03.

isn't about money, it's about the proper running of our railways so we

:55:04.:55:07.

have a safe and accessible railway. Its members opposite could get their

:55:08.:55:13.

heads around that, we may find ourselves working towards... No, he

:55:14.:55:23.

has had a go, he can sit down. The buck stops with this Government. I

:55:24.:55:36.

thank the honourable member for giving way. He may be aware that I

:55:37.:55:41.

took a Transport Select Committee to view the video operation and it was

:55:42.:55:45.

entirely clear to us that you could see when a passenger was coming on

:55:46.:55:48.

and off the train but it doesn't matter what we think, it is the

:55:49.:55:53.

independent railway safety regulator who has confirmed it is safe. I am

:55:54.:55:58.

delighted he raised that issue because I will come on to that point

:55:59.:56:03.

in a few minutes. We all know too well the idiosyncratic approach of

:56:04.:56:08.

the Deputy of state to workers and unions, but even so the handling of

:56:09.:56:13.

industrial relations with regards to Southern has been particularly

:56:14.:56:15.

appalling and relations are not helped by the antagonistic behaviour

:56:16.:56:22.

of GTR, the Department for Transport and government ministers. In

:56:23.:56:27.

February 2016, a senior civil servant at the DFD, Peter Wilkinson,

:56:28.:56:34.

told a public meeting in Croydon, "Over the next three years we are

:56:35.:56:40.

going to be having punch-ups and we will see industrial action, I want

:56:41.:56:43.

your support. I'm furious about it and it has got to change. We have

:56:44.:56:48.

got to break them. They have all borrowed money to buy cars and

:56:49.:56:52.

they've got credit cards, they cannot afford to spend too long on

:56:53.:56:57.

strike and I will push them into that place. They have to decide if

:56:58.:57:02.

they want to give a good service or get the hell out of my industry."

:57:03.:57:08.

Does the right honourable member on a strip -- honestly believe this is

:57:09.:57:17.

the right way to go about implementing staffing change? The

:57:18.:57:21.

Transport Secretary has repeatedly attempted to distance himself from

:57:22.:57:24.

the industrial action claiming it was a matter for the company despite

:57:25.:57:28.

the unusually close relationship between him, his officials and GTR.

:57:29.:57:33.

This has never been a credible claim and the Gibb report confirmed the

:57:34.:57:38.

suspicion is of the Transport Secretary was deeply involved in

:57:39.:57:43.

industrial disputes despite his claims otherwise. Gibb said the

:57:44.:57:49.

Secretary of State is already determining the direction of this

:57:50.:57:54.

dispute but in similar disputes on transparent and express and Scots

:57:55.:57:56.

rail, agreements were reached that prevented industrial action. Scots

:57:57.:58:08.

rail, the technology is there but even in exceptional circumstances a

:58:09.:58:11.

driver cannot operate a train despite 30% of the network operating

:58:12.:58:20.

in that manner. It just demonstrates what you can achieve if you sit down

:58:21.:58:24.

and have an intelligent conversation with people. But where there is a

:58:25.:58:29.

willingness to talk on all sides, it is clear that agreements can be

:58:30.:58:32.

reached that benefit passengers. To put it simply, the Secretary of

:58:33.:58:40.

State's militant anti-worker, anti-trade union stance has

:58:41.:58:45.

significantly worsened industrial relations and had a devastating

:58:46.:58:49.

impact on passenger services. And while I'm at it, he has got to come

:58:50.:58:53.

up with evidence for his allegation that leaves the Labour Party

:58:54.:58:58.

conspiring the way he said it did because it is a fantasy and he

:58:59.:59:02.

shouldn't come to the dispatch box and make things up that he knows are

:59:03.:59:08.

not right. If his analysis is correct, can he explain why the

:59:09.:59:14.

Labour Council and the mayors on Merseyside have taken the same

:59:15.:59:16.

approach as the Government on this issue? That's not accurate. I will

:59:17.:59:23.

tell him why, because if it wasn't for the stitch up with Serco

:59:24.:59:27.

underbelly of taking 17 million quid out of the deal and taking five with

:59:28.:59:33.

good use, we wouldn't have the problem. You serve this up to your

:59:34.:59:39.

mates, you do your deals with these people extracting the value out of

:59:40.:59:45.

our railway system. Absolutely not. It's important to point out the Gibb

:59:46.:59:49.

report itself makes no assessment of the merits of driver-only operation.

:59:50.:59:56.

However, despite a lack of assessment, Chris Gibb makes it

:59:57.:00:04.

clear who supports DOO and any industrial action is wrong. This is

:00:05.:00:11.

from the Gibb report... We have undertaken this project for a

:00:12.:00:16.

consultancy company owned and operated by my family and I, and the

:00:17.:00:25.

LG are limited has been contracted to Govia Thameslink railway as

:00:26.:00:29.

facilitated by the DFD. Discussions have been held under the terms of a

:00:30.:00:41.

confidentiality agreement between CLGR Ltd and GTR so Chris Gibb is

:00:42.:00:46.

contracted to go via, the very company he should be reporting on.

:00:47.:00:52.

Surely even this Secretary of State can see this blatant latest

:00:53.:00:59.

conflict-of-interest. Where is the Independence in this report? It is

:01:00.:01:04.

just another stitch up. What is it with the DFD, the senior civil

:01:05.:01:08.

servant who previously told the world he wanted unions out of his

:01:09.:01:13.

industry, in addition has his own consultancy company, FCP to advise

:01:14.:01:29.

Govia I1 2p a year gold plate. This Government would refuse to recognise

:01:30.:01:34.

a conflict of interest if it's got up and bit them on the gluteus

:01:35.:01:42.

maximus. Labour, like the staff who operate rail work, the passenger

:01:43.:01:46.

groups who have been protesting have been motivated to take legal action

:01:47.:01:50.

and disability charities simply do not agree with the assumption that

:01:51.:01:56.

the staff think and descaling our railways is a positive step. --

:01:57.:02:03.

de-staffing. Despite first being introduced over 30 years ago, DOO is

:02:04.:02:10.

only used on the third of the National railway network. It was

:02:11.:02:14.

originally introduced on three-car trains at a time of declining

:02:15.:02:18.

passenger numbers with passenger numbers having hugely increased in

:02:19.:02:23.

recent years it's now being proposed that DOO will be introduced on

:02:24.:02:28.

trains with as many as 12 cars. And in the last 15 years, passenger

:02:29.:02:34.

numbers on Southern have increased by 64% from 116,000,000 to 190

:02:35.:02:42.

million a year. This rise in numbers means the platform train interface,

:02:43.:02:47.

there are inevitably increased risks to passenger safety as anyone who

:02:48.:02:51.

travels on Southern services is able to see. Can the honourable gentleman

:02:52.:02:59.

explain why the same union has agreed to 12 car train DOO on Thames

:03:00.:03:20.

link? We are looking at the situation as it is now and quite

:03:21.:03:25.

rightly want to look at it properly. Passengers are more at risk if they

:03:26.:03:29.

no longer have the guarantee of a safety critical member of staff on

:03:30.:03:34.

the train to prevent something going wrong or assist when something does

:03:35.:03:39.

go wrong. The view of Her Majesty 's Chief Inspector of railways, Ian

:03:40.:03:45.

Prosser, has been laid out in the office for rail and road report GTR

:03:46.:03:50.

southern railways driver-only operation, that was published

:03:51.:03:55.

earlier this year. Mr Prosser is clear there are obvious caveats to

:03:56.:04:00.

safe operation of DOO. These are namely legal levels of lighting, a

:04:01.:04:07.

good start, suitable equipment, suitable procedures and competency

:04:08.:04:11.

of the relevant staff. None of which have been adequately satisfied even

:04:12.:04:23.

by his own assessment. If union members are concerned about the

:04:24.:04:28.

points he raise, why will they not get round the table again to resolve

:04:29.:04:32.

this and discuss the situation, call off the overtime ban? Quite simply

:04:33.:04:38.

because they couldn't get in the door because when they were holding

:04:39.:04:44.

talks at the TUC, as was pointed out, it was an attempt to divide and

:04:45.:04:49.

conquer, typical Tory trick to keep the critically important trade union

:04:50.:04:52.

out of the discussion in the first place. Had he had any real intent,

:04:53.:05:00.

he would have got everybody round the table to resolve the dispute. He

:05:01.:05:06.

says from a sedentary position it was the TUC that oversaw, they did

:05:07.:05:10.

their level best to try to bring this to a conclusion but not because

:05:11.:05:14.

of the assistants of the DFT and this minister deliberately excluded

:05:15.:05:20.

the relevant parties. Sadly the inference the Government apparently

:05:21.:05:23.

seeks to draw from the report I was talking about, that there is an

:05:24.:05:29.

effect no cause for concern over safety does nothing to assist the

:05:30.:05:35.

resolution. The rail and safety standards board has been reluctant

:05:36.:05:40.

to describe DOO as definitively safe saying DOO does not create

:05:41.:05:45.

additional undesired events but may increase the likelihood of an event

:05:46.:05:51.

occurring or increase the severity of its consequence. By the way, Mr

:05:52.:05:56.

Deputy Speaker, you can no longer find that on the website, I wonder

:05:57.:06:02.

why. At a time of increased risks in terror attacks and a spike in hate

:06:03.:06:07.

crime it seems foolish to prioritise removing train staff from services.

:06:08.:06:21.

Case in point was the derailment that occurred near Watford Junction

:06:22.:06:26.

on the 16th of September last year, after the train hit a landslip

:06:27.:06:31.

caused by torrential rain regard evacuated the train when the driver

:06:32.:06:34.

was injured in the incident and trapped in the cab and not capable

:06:35.:06:39.

of doing it. If such an accident were to occur on a DOO service, the

:06:40.:06:44.

safety of hundreds of passengers could be compromised. Why is it that

:06:45.:06:48.

it takes a catastrophe to bring this Government to its senses when

:06:49.:06:51.

dealing with the issues of safety rather than just completely wanting

:06:52.:06:56.

to compromise on safety at every turn? Mr Deputy Speaker, can he

:06:57.:07:01.

confirmed that it is the case that today on southern rail there are

:07:02.:07:06.

more on train staff than there were before the dispute started, and is

:07:07.:07:10.

he saying that if a member of staff is delayed the previous arrangement

:07:11.:07:13.

whereby the train can carry on running should stop and that train

:07:14.:07:15.

should automatically be cancelled? We ensure there is a critically

:07:16.:07:26.

safety trained member of staff on that train. They have the correct

:07:27.:07:32.

training and they will not be outsourced or sold short on

:07:33.:07:35.

training, which is what this government wants to do. The changes

:07:36.:07:43.

by the Secretary of State would be awful for disabled passengers.

:07:44.:07:47.

Without a guaranteed second member of staff, the ability of passengers

:07:48.:07:50.

with accessibility requirements to turn up and go is severely

:07:51.:07:56.

restricted. Requiring passengers to make arrangements 24 hours in

:07:57.:08:04.

advance. Southern passengers had previously been left stranded on

:08:05.:08:08.

station platforms because on some services there was no on-board

:08:09.:08:12.

supervisor on the DOO service, there was no want to assist them onto a

:08:13.:08:21.

train. Is it not the case that if passengers are disabled they are

:08:22.:08:25.

required to book 24 hours in advance on a separate service because a

:08:26.:08:28.

conductor cannot leave a train and get somebody over the platform and.

:08:29.:08:33.

He is confusing the matter completely? He makes my point, why

:08:34.:08:40.

are we discriminating against disabled people and their freedom to

:08:41.:08:43.

turn up to a railway station and carry on with their journey as every

:08:44.:08:50.

able bodied person can? Before the Secretary of State claims... No, I

:08:51.:08:55.

will not give way again. Before the Secretary of State claims this is a

:08:56.:08:58.

conspiracy theory cooked up by as left or the RMT. This is a quote

:08:59.:09:04.

from a GTR person there is no cast-iron guarantee a passenger with

:09:05.:09:08.

accessibility requirements can spontaneously board a train on the

:09:09.:09:11.

assumption there would be a second member of staff on board a Southern

:09:12.:09:17.

train. And this, representative from a train operating company looking to

:09:18.:09:24.

introduce DOO who was quoted on the advantage of trains being in service

:09:25.:09:27.

with only the driver on-board bash the good thing would beat all the

:09:28.:09:31.

regular passengers would still be carried. It would only be the

:09:32.:09:35.

wheelchair users who wouldn't be able to travel. So the Secretary of

:09:36.:09:39.

State will be aware the numerous stories of disabled passengers being

:09:40.:09:43.

left stranded due to the staffing changes he is forcing through,

:09:44.:09:48.

including that of Sandra, a 56-year-old woman who was left

:09:49.:09:52.

stranded in the freezing cold for more than two hours waiting for a

:09:53.:09:58.

Southern service on Hampden Park near Eastbourne. Because there was

:09:59.:10:02.

nobody to help her on the train, Sandra said the situation was

:10:03.:10:06.

horrible and embarrassing. It is unforgivable when I had booked the

:10:07.:10:10.

assistance of 48 hours in advance. So, everyone should be able to use

:10:11.:10:14.

rail services and providing assistance to those who need it,

:10:15.:10:18.

should be a top priority to ensure good quality of life. The Transport

:10:19.:10:24.

Secretary should be ashamed he is making our railways less, not more

:10:25.:10:28.

accessible for disabled people. I firmly believe the Labour Party, the

:10:29.:10:34.

passenger groups, the staff and the disability charities are in the

:10:35.:10:39.

right, when we said the objective of the government should be to make our

:10:40.:10:43.

railways safer and more accessible, not riskier and more exclusive. And

:10:44.:10:49.

the Gibbs' Report paints a picture of a chaotic relationship between

:10:50.:10:53.

Network Rail, the Department for Transport and go via Thames Link.

:10:54.:10:56.

None of which have sufficient oversight responsibility leading to

:10:57.:11:02.

poor performance on Southern. Chris Gibb said none of the parties in

:11:03.:11:07.

this system share the same incentives or objectives and

:11:08.:11:10.

recommends the custodian of the overall system integrity be better

:11:11.:11:15.

identified. Whilst these criticisms are true for Southern, they are an

:11:16.:11:20.

accurate summary with what is wrong how our railways are managed in

:11:21.:11:24.

general. Labour has consistently highlighted the privatisation and

:11:25.:11:28.

fragmentation of the railway has prevented the necessary oversight

:11:29.:11:31.

and responsibility needed to deliver upgrades and run efficient services

:11:32.:11:36.

will stop which is why, as part of our plans to take rail into public

:11:37.:11:41.

ownership, we will establish a new national body to serve as a guiding

:11:42.:11:46.

mind for the publicly owned railway, to avoid the chaos of which this

:11:47.:11:52.

government has presided. There is no need for the government to prolong

:11:53.:11:55.

the suffering of passengers any longer. This industrial dispute is

:11:56.:12:04.

but one part of an honoured if I'd seen, but managerial inefficiency

:12:05.:12:07.

characterises this woeful service. It is within the Secretary of

:12:08.:12:10.

State's power to end the industrial dispute tomorrow. He can do it by

:12:11.:12:16.

calling off his plans to expand driver only operation and by

:12:17.:12:19.

guaranteeing a second safety critical crewmember on every train

:12:20.:12:25.

and he should do so immediately. As was done with the East Coast Main

:12:26.:12:30.

line which delivered the lowest fare rises and highest passenger

:12:31.:12:33.

satisfaction of any rail service in the country and returned over ?1

:12:34.:12:38.

billion to the Treasury. It is time to admit defeat and take Southern

:12:39.:12:43.

back under public control as a public service. The privatised

:12:44.:12:47.

franchise railway system allowing all comers, including state-owned

:12:48.:12:52.

rail companies from across the globe with the bizarre exception of the

:12:53.:12:56.

United Kingdom ex-self, to extract profits from passengers and

:12:57.:13:00.

taxpayers alike has had its day. The government should wake up and

:13:01.:13:04.

recognise the chaos they have created and do the right thing and

:13:05.:13:09.

bring our railways back under public control and ownership and if they

:13:10.:13:17.

don't, government will. Can I said two members, apart from the front

:13:18.:13:20.

bench to come, I am working on six minutes. Thank you very much indeed.

:13:21.:13:33.

Can we start with the service that Southern has provided for passengers

:13:34.:13:38.

over the last more than two years has been completely unacceptable.

:13:39.:13:42.

There is no disagreement about that. Our constituents are at the end of

:13:43.:13:46.

their tether is about it and the service, in particular, last year

:13:47.:13:50.

was wholly unacceptable to the point that it was causing economic loss,

:13:51.:13:55.

real suffering on the parts of our constituents. The question therefore

:13:56.:14:01.

is not whether the service has been poor, it is why it is the case and

:14:02.:14:06.

who is responsible. There has been no shortage of criticism on this

:14:07.:14:10.

side of the House of Southern and Network Rail for their part in the

:14:11.:14:16.

story. And two and a half years ago, at the beginning of 2015, I and

:14:17.:14:21.

other members on the side of the has initiated the Bates in Westminster

:14:22.:14:26.

Hall asking questions, we held a succession of meetings with

:14:27.:14:29.

ministers about the performance of Southern when it had taken over the

:14:30.:14:36.

new and expanded franchise. There were clearly serious problems. Not

:14:37.:14:41.

enough drivers and there was also an inadequacy of the infrastructure

:14:42.:14:44.

because of the London Bridge improvements. It was an irony that

:14:45.:14:49.

the ?6 billion London Bridge improvements, which will result in a

:14:50.:14:52.

better service for passengers, have been causing a temporary shortage of

:14:53.:14:57.

capacity for the new franchise, which exacerbated the issues. As a

:14:58.:15:04.

response to the criticism that we were making on behalf of our

:15:05.:15:10.

constituents, the then Secretary of State and then rail minister

:15:11.:15:15.

convened a meeting of the industry and a performance improvement plan

:15:16.:15:21.

was introduced. Whereby the industry agreed it was necessary,

:15:22.:15:25.

step-by-step, month by month, to improve the performance in the new

:15:26.:15:28.

franchise, recognising it wasn't just a matter for the operator, but

:15:29.:15:32.

a matter for Network Rail providing the track, which of course is in

:15:33.:15:38.

public ownership already. The point that the Labour front bench might do

:15:39.:15:45.

well to consider. As a consequence of the performance and improvement

:15:46.:15:49.

plan, performance steadily improved towards the end of 2015. But then it

:15:50.:15:55.

began catastrophically to deteriorate at the beginning of the

:15:56.:16:01.

next year in 2016. Specifically from April onwards. There was no

:16:02.:16:06.

coincidence about that. The reason it did so was because of the

:16:07.:16:09.

industrial action which began at that time. This was not just the

:16:10.:16:14.

official industrial action on the part of the RMT, it was the

:16:15.:16:17.

unofficial action, unofficial action which they have denied. The high

:16:18.:16:23.

rates of sickness, suddenly and a general unwillingness of the

:16:24.:16:31.

workforce to cooperate with the management. It was undoubtedly the

:16:32.:16:39.

case that the operator already, having to improve its performance,

:16:40.:16:42.

already facing difficulties. There was no disagreement about that, the

:16:43.:16:48.

performance declined catastrophically as a result of that

:16:49.:16:50.

industrial action and that action was then joined in by the drivers.

:16:51.:16:56.

Indeed, the work to rule in the case of the drivers was official, rather

:16:57.:17:02.

than unofficial. The consequence was, the service last year was

:17:03.:17:09.

simply appalling. But, what was that all about? It was about the alleged

:17:10.:17:13.

lack of safety as a consequence of the introduction of a system that

:17:14.:17:19.

has been operating on a third of the railway for 30 years. The honourable

:17:20.:17:24.

member from the front implied casually some kind of culpability to

:17:25.:17:33.

safety. But the previous Labour government was in office for 13

:17:34.:17:36.

years when driver only operated trains were running. These trains

:17:37.:17:41.

run on the London underground. There happens to be a Labour mayor

:17:42.:17:46.

responsible for that. The Docklands Railway has no driver at all. We now

:17:47.:17:50.

have a situation where according to the figures the unions gave us in a

:17:51.:17:57.

meeting this morning, 97, over 97% of the trains that Southern are

:17:58.:18:02.

operating still have a safety trained second member of staff on

:18:03.:18:06.

board. There have been no pay cuts, no job losses, 97% of the trains are

:18:07.:18:13.

still running a second person on board. Fewer than 3% of those trains

:18:14.:18:18.

are not. But the honourable member for the opposition implied they had

:18:19.:18:23.

been de-staffing. Far from mapper has been a 24% pay offer of an

:18:24.:18:29.

increase to Aslef drivers. So there is no doubt about the union's

:18:30.:18:34.

responsibility for what happened last year. I will give way. I am

:18:35.:18:38.

grateful. In the front bench opposite we had nothing but the

:18:39.:18:42.

patients and the teachers, the pupils and the clinical staff whose

:18:43.:18:49.

lives have been wrecked, watching getting railways getting work

:18:50.:18:54.

properly so they are safe and we can rely on them? I agree with my

:18:55.:18:59.

honourable friend. Those who have faced such constraints on their pay

:19:00.:19:03.

over the last few years, it will stick in their throat to see an

:19:04.:19:08.

offer that is given to the train drivers, so their salaries for a

:19:09.:19:14.

four-day, 35 hour week will go to over ?60,000 a year. It is a

:19:15.:19:20.

perfectly generous offer. Frankly, this has got nothing respectably to

:19:21.:19:23.

do with safety and the one thing that is clear is, the other side has

:19:24.:19:28.

been unable to produce any evidence the service that is now running his

:19:29.:19:33.

and said, partly because it runs extensively across the national

:19:34.:19:38.

network and has done for 30 years. Partly because there is still a

:19:39.:19:41.

second member of staff on board as I said. All that is happening is they

:19:42.:19:48.

are not operating the doors. I will give way. He and I have been working

:19:49.:19:52.

on this for a long time as next-door neighbours. If all of that is

:19:53.:19:57.

correct and it is correct, can my honourable friend tell us, with all

:19:58.:20:01.

that we have examined and learned about it, what he thinks this strike

:20:02.:20:09.

is about? I think my right honourable friend question would be

:20:10.:20:12.

best addressed to the unions. I think it is about control of the

:20:13.:20:16.

railways. That is what they seek. It has nothing to do with safety or the

:20:17.:20:21.

interests of the passengers. What is telling is when the industry of

:20:22.:20:25.

action fell away, when the driver only operated trains were

:20:26.:20:29.

successfully introduced on the line, actually the service has started to

:20:30.:20:34.

improve again. That gives the lie to the suggestion this is only about

:20:35.:20:38.

Southern. It is not only about Southern. It is principally been

:20:39.:20:42.

about the industrial action which the unions have unreasonably taken

:20:43.:20:45.

on this railway. The final point I will make is this. There is no doubt

:20:46.:20:54.

there is an inadequacy of investments, historically, on lines

:20:55.:20:58.

which have been taking more and more people over recent years. In the 12

:20:59.:21:03.

years I have been a member of Parliament, the number of passengers

:21:04.:21:08.

on Southern's main routes have doubled. I welcome the 6 billion

:21:09.:21:13.

London Bridge investment and a ?300 million package the government

:21:14.:21:19.

introduced in response to the Gibb report. Looking forward, there will

:21:20.:21:23.

need to be substantial, further investment in lines which are

:21:24.:21:28.

carrying more and more people on a daily basis, because the

:21:29.:21:31.

infrastructure is actually not equal to the task of carrying the numbers

:21:32.:21:36.

of people, which will only increase with the development that is now

:21:37.:21:42.

anticipated in the South East. But let's be clear whether Blaine

:21:43.:21:44.

principally lies for the disruption over last year, it principally lies

:21:45.:21:52.

with the unions. I am sure there will be a few members in here

:21:53.:21:55.

wondering what the SNP transport spokesman can bring to the Southern

:21:56.:22:01.

rail debate. I am hoping I will have a more rounded opinion about what

:22:02.:22:06.

this is about, which is the Gibb Report. The transport Secretary

:22:07.:22:12.

stood up for 20 minutes and just bashed the unions. To follow the

:22:13.:22:19.

honourable member South Downs, I would say to him, suggesting that

:22:20.:22:24.

staff are actually taking sick days or falsely taking sick days will not

:22:25.:22:28.

bode well for future working relationships as well. It is

:22:29.:22:31.

indicative of whether government seems to be with unions. Madam

:22:32.:22:40.

Deputy Speaker, in this chamber, we will have debates about ideology and

:22:41.:22:45.

the ethos that free market will always outperformed the public

:22:46.:22:48.

sector. However, I think it is quite clear from performance over the past

:22:49.:22:52.

two years, not just the last year, but the past few years, Thames Link

:22:53.:22:59.

railways and Southern rail fiasco suggests otherwise.

:23:00.:23:03.

In the past have been repeated calls for the franchise to be terminated

:23:04.:23:09.

but the Government refused to act. Instead they help 3-set benchmarks

:23:10.:23:13.

to ensure that go be Thames Link railway were not in breach of

:23:14.:23:17.

contract performance measures. Looking back the Transport Select

:23:18.:23:20.

Committee report complained about the lack of transparency and

:23:21.:23:24.

performance data against contractual obligations, so let alone does not

:23:25.:23:29.

help those seeking solutions and understand the contractual position.

:23:30.:23:35.

I would say the report was a welcome interlude although you have to

:23:36.:23:38.

question why the Government sat on it for six months. It seems this

:23:39.:23:44.

government brought it forward in debate not constructively but in a

:23:45.:23:48.

union bashing fashion which will not help things going forward. The

:23:49.:23:55.

report identified ?300 million which need to be spent by the end of next

:23:56.:23:59.

year to ensure that 2018 timetable can be achieved so that is quite an

:24:00.:24:03.

eye watering some, a massive commitment. They committed 300

:24:04.:24:07.

billion in January but that is over a 12 year period. We are now a

:24:08.:24:10.

quarter of the way into that two-year period. It would be good to

:24:11.:24:15.

know how that work is advancing and hopefully he can provide an update

:24:16.:24:20.

later on. I would also comment that the ?20 million to two is of

:24:21.:24:24.

September actually took the Government ten months to spend that

:24:25.:24:28.

money so I throw that out there in relation to ten months to get

:24:29.:24:32.

through an initial 20 million to programme and expecting to deliver

:24:33.:24:36.

300 million programme in two years. I suspect some of the 300 million

:24:37.:24:40.

football arms from some identified draft. The Government report, it did

:24:41.:24:49.

confirm that franchise arrangements have been completely inadequate

:24:50.:24:53.

today in terms of understanding how infrastructure upgrades would impact

:24:54.:24:57.

on services and that is a Department for Transport failing and something

:24:58.:25:00.

the Government has still got to get to grips with. The Gibb Report

:25:01.:25:10.

always -- also suggested, overnight timetable to allow maintenance on

:25:11.:25:13.

the Brighton railway, I would like to ask what is happening with the

:25:14.:25:17.

production line maintenance that was supposed to be... I give way. I am

:25:18.:25:25.

not sure he has read the report because in the appendix of the

:25:26.:25:29.

report sets out but the short-term and long-term infrastructure

:25:30.:25:32.

projects going way into 2020 so few answers answers I suggest he reached

:25:33.:25:36.

the report. I am asking answers of the Government, I expect the

:25:37.:25:42.

Secretary to tell me. The Government announced 300 main package to be

:25:43.:25:45.

delivered over two years so I'm asking the Government what is going

:25:46.:25:49.

to happen and we are over a quarter of the way through that time period

:25:50.:25:57.

already. The Gibb Report always called for a review of stations of

:25:58.:26:00.

the councils too many services which from our perspective commit to has

:26:01.:26:07.

been a backdrop of nearly 59,000 trains full of courage within 2016

:26:08.:26:11.

so that could be identified only by the Department for Transport and

:26:12.:26:15.

again that should be resolved going forward. In terms of industrial

:26:16.:26:21.

relations, part of the debate so far, I am pleased to say that the

:26:22.:26:25.

Gibb Report said negotiations must be entered into, I repeat calls from

:26:26.:26:32.

other members on the side to ask the Secretary of State to show

:26:33.:26:34.

leadership and actually try and lead these negotiations. I would disagree

:26:35.:26:40.

with the negative comments about collective bargaining and I don't

:26:41.:26:44.

think that should be in the remit but also the comments on the driver

:26:45.:26:48.

on the operation discussions could result in a full-back perfect in

:26:49.:26:55.

other services, just a conclusion not too far from himself. Safety is

:26:56.:27:02.

a key issue and the Gibb Report confirmed narrow platforms at

:27:03.:27:06.

Gatwick Cousens overcrowding and the like of station shelters elsewhere

:27:07.:27:10.

causes issues with passengers being able to access trains as well. It is

:27:11.:27:15.

understandable looking at it from outside the de-EEO can be seen as a

:27:16.:27:19.

props mud stuck because the staff are one of the staff are ones that

:27:20.:27:22.

have to deal with the consequences if there is an incident. Arising

:27:23.:27:26.

from overcrowding issues that people are leading the trains. I also bring

:27:27.:27:34.

up a serious dereliction of duty in the fact the Government is picking

:27:35.:27:39.

up a ?38 million tab from lost revenue. ?15 million in compensation

:27:40.:27:43.

from passengers. " That could have done in infrastructure upgrades if

:27:44.:27:49.

there was proper forward planning. In Scotland so has actually been far

:27:50.:27:54.

wider national scrutiny of the ScotRail alliance which operates

:27:55.:27:58.

Scotland trains. It come into being in April 2015 and it came in right

:27:59.:28:05.

away as a living wage employer and I think that should be applauded.

:28:06.:28:09.

However also have to acknowledge is that the performance was also look

:28:10.:28:13.

contractual levels of the Scottish Government took the lead, intervened

:28:14.:28:19.

in France including Carling agreed. 181 of 241 actions have been

:28:20.:28:25.

completed and have agreed... The plan itself has been viewed with

:28:26.:28:30.

office and rail and road and found to be robust, deliverable and

:28:31.:28:35.

challenging. Chardy ScotRail now is at 90% and has been ahead of the UK

:28:36.:28:41.

average for 40 years. Looking ahead the Scottish Government is also

:28:42.:28:45.

exploring a public sector bid from a franchise break-up ScotRail going

:28:46.:28:51.

forward. In terms of the public sector bid to UK Government has

:28:52.:28:57.

demonstrated the East Coast Mainline are not viable but profitable to the

:28:58.:29:02.

taxman and the refusal for the Government to recognise this is

:29:03.:29:07.

factory shopping. It raised ?1 million and was rated in the best of

:29:08.:29:13.

that franchise, so again that shows public sector franchises can be

:29:14.:29:18.

leading the way over the private sector. You have just delayed me

:29:19.:29:32.

further... To be fair as armour member made an intervention earlier

:29:33.:29:37.

on so I assume you have cut out some of your speech... In the UK we have

:29:38.:29:43.

got a franchise system that allows state-run bits from foreign

:29:44.:29:46.

countries but at ago Mr refuses to allow public sector beds so there is

:29:47.:29:54.

no logical conclusion... In terms of ScotRail there was some industrial

:29:55.:29:57.

action in Scotland but the Scottish Government swing to meet unions, the

:29:58.:30:06.

Scottish Government offered agreed deals to, this is what should be

:30:07.:30:11.

happening, instead of laughing about the Transport Secretary should be

:30:12.:30:15.

showing leadership and pacing up and speaking to the unions and get round

:30:16.:30:22.

the table. Just to conclude, the Government will hopefully show how

:30:23.:30:29.

matters can progress with GTR but the Scottish Government are showing

:30:30.:30:32.

what can be done and showing a different attitude north of the

:30:33.:30:35.

border but I suggested Transport Secretary should think about that as

:30:36.:30:42.

well. Just a reminder six minute limit applies on backbench speeches.

:30:43.:30:49.

Congratulations on your recent election. Throughout this debate we

:30:50.:30:55.

should not forget the fact that the terrible service on Southern Railway

:30:56.:30:59.

has had a devastating impact on hundreds of thousands of people.

:31:00.:31:04.

People have lost their jobs, had to quit so jobs, my constituent Lee

:31:05.:31:08.

Fenton from Colston got sacked because of persistent lateness due

:31:09.:31:11.

to the poor service on Southern Railway. Parents had not received

:31:12.:31:15.

their children because they couldn't get home on time. Doctors have been

:31:16.:31:20.

unable to treat their patients, teachers have been unable to teach

:31:21.:31:24.

their pupils because of this terrible service. And as Chris Gibb

:31:25.:31:29.

found in his report, a report much called for by members opposite and

:31:30.:31:33.

the unions, the primary cause of the problems in 2016 was the industrial

:31:34.:31:41.

action by the trade unions. The claim is that driver operated doors

:31:42.:31:44.

are unsafe. That is the nub of their contention. And yet 30% of UK

:31:45.:31:52.

service trains, 1.3 million trains a year, run perfectly safely driver

:31:53.:31:58.

operated doors. All of the London Underground runs with driver

:31:59.:32:01.

operated doors on far more crowded platforms, so does most of Europe.

:32:02.:32:05.

Here is what the rail safety standards board wrote in June last

:32:06.:32:08.

year on the topic. They said there is no increased risk from properly

:32:09.:32:14.

implement a driver operated doors that have been detected in any

:32:15.:32:20.

research we have carried out, so there is clear evidence that driver

:32:21.:32:23.

operated doors are entirely safe. And the other sticking point with

:32:24.:32:28.

union is the question whether the train can someone the second member

:32:29.:32:31.

of staff does not turn up, for example because they are sick or

:32:32.:32:35.

delayed or on strike. Every train by the way which was scheduled to have

:32:36.:32:38.

two members of staff will continue to do so but what about second

:32:39.:32:42.

member of staff doesn't turn up? The company position which I think Susan

:32:43.:32:45.

is at the train can still run. The union position is that it cannot.

:32:46.:32:49.

That of course leads to needless cancellations. It also Madam Deputy

:32:50.:32:55.

Speaker means if there is a strike by conductors, that strike is

:32:56.:33:00.

ineffective if the train can run anyway and that I believe the real

:33:01.:33:04.

reason why the RMT are so keen on this point. The honourable member

:33:05.:33:11.

opposite, the member from Middlesbrough, Shadow transport

:33:12.:33:13.

spokesman, said there had been the starting on this railway. I would

:33:14.:33:17.

point out to the honourable gentleman that 100 extra on-board

:33:18.:33:21.

supervisors have been hired since these changes were made, so far from

:33:22.:33:26.

the stabbing, there has been an increase, an increase in staffing

:33:27.:33:34.

levels -- the staffing. 90% of trains have in practice been running

:33:35.:33:37.

with a second person on board. I am very disappointed that as lead have

:33:38.:33:42.

instructed their members to work a four day week because it is having

:33:43.:33:47.

devastating consequences for our constituents as we speak. It is

:33:48.:33:51.

completely unacceptable. There is no good safety grounds and have just

:33:52.:33:55.

made out, and there has been an incredibly generous financial offer

:33:56.:34:01.

made to them. A 26% pay increase from 51,000 to 63,000 for working a

:34:02.:34:04.

four-day week. There is absolutely no justification to this strike and

:34:05.:34:09.

I call upon the honourable member opposite to prevail upon his friends

:34:10.:34:16.

in Aslef to call off this overtime ban at the earliest opportunity. But

:34:17.:34:21.

I would say that we do need to train more divers. There is no question

:34:22.:34:25.

about that and I strongly encourage government ministers to but pressure

:34:26.:34:31.

on the GTR to do exactly that. I would also add that while this

:34:32.:34:35.

unjustified and damaging overtime strike is in place, we should make

:34:36.:34:39.

sure that the trains weren't ideally with eight or 12 carriages and not

:34:40.:34:44.

shortfalls, and I have had reports the constituencies at Purley Oaks

:34:45.:34:46.

Station in my constituency where we have had four Karius trains which

:34:47.:34:51.

does lead to overcrowding so I would ask ministers to look at that.

:34:52.:34:55.

Having placed responsibility primarily with the trade unions,

:34:56.:34:59.

Chris Gibb does of course go on to make a number of other points. One

:35:00.:35:03.

of those as the member for Commander mentioned is the 300 main phone

:35:04.:35:09.

programme. I strongly commend the Government are finding out my that

:35:10.:35:14.

was urgently needed and I have got a note here sent from Network Rail

:35:15.:35:17.

which I can share afterwards with him that this is the work that has

:35:18.:35:23.

been going on and it includes high output balance cleaning and work on

:35:24.:35:28.

the bulk and Sevenoaks water tunnels Management systems. Further

:35:29.:35:30.

particulars are available if the honourable member would like to hear

:35:31.:35:32.

them. That investment was incredibly welcome and incredibly important. I

:35:33.:35:39.

am also very excited about control period six, the major capital works

:35:40.:35:42.

programme coming up in a couple of years and with the right investment

:35:43.:35:47.

between South Croydon station and the Windmill Hill junction, we can

:35:48.:35:50.

increase capacity on the entire Brighton Main by 30% and again I

:35:51.:35:55.

very strongly urge ministers to move the project forward. I would finally

:35:56.:36:01.

say that I think this franchise is rather too large. I understand why

:36:02.:36:04.

it was let in this form because of the works at London Bridge and the

:36:05.:36:08.

tempting transformation, so I entirely understand why it was done

:36:09.:36:10.

this way but I do think in due course the franchise should be

:36:11.:36:17.

broken down into its component parts, Southern, Gatwick Express,

:36:18.:36:19.

Thames Link and great Northern and that would allow for much

:36:20.:36:25.

management. In conclusion, I think the behaviour of people like John

:36:26.:36:27.

Coyle who has stated that his objective is to bring down the

:36:28.:36:32.

Government is wholly inappropriate and I: the unions to end their

:36:33.:36:37.

unjustified strike action forthwith. Gillian Greenwood. I know there are

:36:38.:36:44.

colleagues who are yet to speak his constituencies have borne the brunt

:36:45.:36:46.

of the appalling state of Southern Rail so I will do my best to be

:36:47.:36:50.

brief. I would like to say a few words about the impact on the

:36:51.:36:54.

situation on southern on my constituent and moved some of the

:36:55.:36:56.

wider issues raised by the Gibb Report. It might surprise some

:36:57.:37:02.

honourable members to hear is that delays on southern can impact on

:37:03.:37:05.

trade in Nottingham. The linear nature of the rail network combined

:37:06.:37:09.

with forthcoming changes to the Thameslink timetable will have

:37:10.:37:13.

potentially hugely damaging effect on InterCity Midland mainline

:37:14.:37:17.

services stop the Gibb Report rightly says that sometimes funding

:37:18.:37:22.

availability has prioritised arm into the system without considering

:37:23.:37:25.

the welfare of the overall system and this appears to be the case on

:37:26.:37:30.

the Midland Main line where Thames Link, long-distance and freight

:37:31.:37:33.

services share the same tracks south of Bedford. The December 2018

:37:34.:37:37.

timetable change will increase the service frequency through the Thames

:37:38.:37:42.

Link to 24 trains an hour and of course on paper this is a welcome

:37:43.:37:46.

improvement for passengers, but in an indictment of the disjointed and

:37:47.:37:51.

fragmented railway planning, the new timetable is not integrated with

:37:52.:37:54.

that of the East Midlands franchise. The intensity of the new timetable

:37:55.:37:58.

will impair the ability of operators to recover after periods of

:37:59.:38:02.

disruption. As the Gibb Report points out this problem is

:38:03.:38:05.

compounded by GTR's theoretically efficient but brittle rostering

:38:06.:38:09.

practices. That means that a single service to shops and an Brighton

:38:10.:38:13.

could cause reactionary delays to travel up to the line and onto the

:38:14.:38:17.

wider network paralysing trains hundreds of miles away.

:38:18.:38:23.

It has been reported in the technical press secretary and nine

:38:24.:38:28.

minute journey time penalty for services operating from London. That

:38:29.:38:36.

is a real concern for passengers and the business community in

:38:37.:38:38.

Nottingham. I understand it is not too late to make members to the

:38:39.:38:43.

timetable. I asked the minister gives a commitment to this issue

:38:44.:38:47.

will be addressed. The Gibb report is long, technical and in places

:38:48.:38:53.

contentious many issues arise from it which can be discussed. On level

:38:54.:38:59.

crossings, which are continued source of delays on the southern

:39:00.:39:04.

network... The legislation that governs the closure of dangerous

:39:05.:39:07.

level crossings is archaic and hugely inefficient. It was welcome

:39:08.:39:11.

that the Gibb report said the recommendations of the Law

:39:12.:39:14.

Commission should be adopted as a new bill. The issue has a long

:39:15.:39:21.

issue. -- history. Dangerous level crossings are the main cause of

:39:22.:39:25.

external risk on the rallies and a major contributor to delays. The

:39:26.:39:30.

issue was referred to the Law Commission by the Government in 2008

:39:31.:39:35.

and the commission's recommendations were published in September, 2013.

:39:36.:39:41.

In January, 2015, but then Liberal Democrat Minister of State sets into

:39:42.:39:49.

place that we want to bring forward legislation as soon as possible. Two

:39:50.:39:52.

and a half years later and nothing has changed. On the back of this

:39:53.:39:55.

report, will the committee is to give a commitment today that he will

:39:56.:40:01.

finally bring forward this necessary legislation? Finally, we need to

:40:02.:40:05.

talk about the lack of transparency that is characterised by the

:40:06.:40:09.

Government approach to this prolonged period of exceptionally

:40:10.:40:13.

poor service on Southern. As the transport select me said in October,

:40:14.:40:17.

until recently managed, after several attempts and considerable

:40:18.:40:22.

time and effort to extract information from the Department, the

:40:23.:40:25.

contractual performance benchmarks and data entirely opaque. There were

:40:26.:40:33.

questions about the transparency of the report. We know the final

:40:34.:40:38.

version was submitted to ministers on the 13th of December. The claim

:40:39.:40:42.

that this document could not be released until June is unconvincing.

:40:43.:40:47.

If we turn to the minutes of the round National task force meeting

:40:48.:40:52.

held on 23rd of November, it is recorded that Peter Wilkinson, the

:40:53.:40:56.

franchising director said, the Gibb report had been drafted but was not

:40:57.:41:00.

yet signed off by the Secretary of State. The meeting was also told by

:41:01.:41:06.

an individual with the initials NDE, who maybe Nick Brown, that, GTR had

:41:07.:41:15.

had a lot of input to the review. Madame Jeopardy Speaker, when the

:41:16.:41:18.

fire version of the report was published, the sweeping statements

:41:19.:41:26.

about the undesirability of operations surprised some observers,

:41:27.:41:29.

especially as some honourable members on both sides of the Has had

:41:30.:41:36.

backed some form of state intervention. We need to know about

:41:37.:41:40.

the involvement of go via. I think we need to hear why the first

:41:41.:41:44.

approval of the draft report, and then publication of the final

:41:45.:41:48.

version, appears to have been delayed. It is vital that the

:41:49.:41:52.

travelling public can place trust in these reports. Can the minister

:41:53.:41:58.

gives the house and unqualified assurance that the department did

:41:59.:42:02.

not seek to pressure, amend or otherwise influence a report in any

:42:03.:42:08.

way to politicise its content? The situation on Southern has complex

:42:09.:42:15.

causes. The result must be ending the years of misery. The Government

:42:16.:42:18.

has a role to play a part of the role is to generate less heat and

:42:19.:42:23.

more light in the months ahead. We do not need to endorse the Gibb

:42:24.:42:27.

report in full to acknowledge it has made sensible and practical

:42:28.:42:31.

suggestions. Despite all for ministers to take all reasonable

:42:32.:42:32.

steps to get the Southern row steps to get the Southern row

:42:33.:42:40.

network moving again. -- rail network. This morning I attended a

:42:41.:42:45.

meeting where the unions argued it was proportionate and appropriate to

:42:46.:42:51.

strike because 2.75% of trains on Southern operate without an on-board

:42:52.:42:58.

supervisor. The fact that 97.25% of trains do did not seem to sway them

:42:59.:43:03.

which will mean untold damage to my constituents once again in Bolton.

:43:04.:43:08.

In Wilton, the service provided by seven has been unsatisfactory for a

:43:09.:43:14.

long time. -- Wilden. Whilst the performances of Southern has

:43:15.:43:17.

gradually improved over the past year, the behaviour of the unions

:43:18.:43:22.

has deteriorated with the current industrial dispute being entirely

:43:23.:43:27.

irresponsible and cynical. I welcome the Gibb report and I met with Chris

:43:28.:43:32.

Gibb last year to discuss the situation. Mostly seven's poor

:43:33.:43:35.

management and poor communication. The report did not pull any punches

:43:36.:43:42.

with regards to the management of GTR or the Department for Transport.

:43:43.:43:45.

The most damning indictment was give's assessment of the unions. It

:43:46.:43:50.

is plainly stated in a report that the primary cause of disruption to

:43:51.:43:55.

passengers has been industrial action by the unions, compounded by

:43:56.:44:00.

six lead amongst drivers. The report describes the union's two is as

:44:01.:44:04.

debatable and the actions undermining the system. Having said

:44:05.:44:09.

this, GTR seven is not devoid of responsibility. The behaviour of the

:44:10.:44:13.

unions does not excuse the previous ongoing and infrastructure problems

:44:14.:44:16.

that are within the control of the franchise, which is too lenient on

:44:17.:44:21.

financial penalties for failings. Despite all of this, my constituents

:44:22.:44:25.

have had to put up with delays, timetable changes, shortfall of

:44:26.:44:31.

change, engineering works, overcrowding, unsatisfactory

:44:32.:44:35.

compensation processes, nonsensical bus replacement, poor communication

:44:36.:44:37.

and potential ticket office closures. The handling of the

:44:38.:44:42.

dispute does not cover them in glory and unfortunately this line is

:44:43.:44:48.

called the misery line in my constituency. The go via

:44:49.:44:52.

consultation is a step in the right direction. I am pleased that

:44:53.:44:56.

passengers will have an opportunity to comment in detail about

:44:57.:44:58.

timetabling arrangements and proposed reforms that is not enough.

:44:59.:45:06.

GTR must be made to appreciate the seriousness of the frustration

:45:07.:45:10.

caused on a daily basis. I want to draw the minister's tension to the

:45:11.:45:15.

Gibb report, appendix five, which talks about the modernisation of

:45:16.:45:19.

another mine. I have raised this with the minister. As he knows, and

:45:20.:45:25.

I support Chris Gibb's recommendations to electrify the

:45:26.:45:31.

line and also have a depot. The line connects the towns of upfield and

:45:32.:45:36.

crow bred to London. It is one of the few routes not electrified. It

:45:37.:45:42.

is hard to believe that in this country we still rely on diesel

:45:43.:45:47.

trains, which are outdated and are increasingly difficult keep on

:45:48.:45:50.

track. In simple language when they break down, it is hard to find new

:45:51.:45:56.

rolling stock. Even when the Southern services running a full

:45:57.:45:59.

timetable of trends, with a complete number of cars and full quota of

:46:00.:46:06.

staff who have turned up to work, the service is way fully inadequate.

:46:07.:46:09.

The fleet is inefficient and a sustained use of diesel is not

:46:10.:46:15.

viable to go forward. As the Gibb report points out, electrification

:46:16.:46:21.

of the line significantly improved performance and timetabling and

:46:22.:46:24.

resulted in more efficient cooling. It would result in less pollution

:46:25.:46:30.

and overall provide a seven day service within my constituency.

:46:31.:46:34.

Annual season tickets from Crowborough to London cost thousands

:46:35.:46:39.

of pounds. If my constituents are paying 21st-century prices, they are

:46:40.:46:43.

entitled to receive a 21st-century rail service in return. That does

:46:44.:46:50.

mean electrification. Christopher, who lives in my constituency stated,

:46:51.:46:58.

a loss of peak trains will make it even harder than usual for me to

:46:59.:47:02.

keep my commitment is to work and family, including being able to

:47:03.:47:06.

reliably collect my two-year-old and my-year-old children from school and

:47:07.:47:13.

after-school clubs. Electrification and a depot at Crowborough will

:47:14.:47:16.

provide electrification a much-needed resilience on the line.

:47:17.:47:22.

No doubt the minister has read the conclusion of the report

:47:23.:47:25.

recommending a lecture occasion and has a solid financial case behind

:47:26.:47:29.

it. I look forward to having continued conversations with the

:47:30.:47:34.

minister to try to secure that. My constituents would like to know,

:47:35.:47:41.

when the misery line will return to the Uckfield line which will only

:47:42.:47:44.

return after the strikes are called off. I look forward to working with

:47:45.:47:50.

my minister to ensure a depot and electrification within my

:47:51.:47:56.

constituency. I congratulate you on your elevation. I stand here today

:47:57.:48:03.

frankly staggered that 18 months later the southern rail dispute is

:48:04.:48:08.

still going on. I find it staggering in a whole range of areas, some of

:48:09.:48:12.

which are alluded to in the Chris Gibb report. I will remind members

:48:13.:48:17.

of the House it was a resilient report. Not under dispute. It looked

:48:18.:48:26.

at southern rail generally. The unions, I appreciate, talk about

:48:27.:48:30.

safety. They are perfectly entitled to that. The three key areas where I

:48:31.:48:39.

disprove, any female passengers in Eastbourne have contacted me over

:48:40.:48:43.

the last year, as I have been campaigning against this dispute

:48:44.:48:46.

when trying to find resolution saying, we would not feel safe

:48:47.:48:50.

coming back to Eastbourne late at night or early evening if we were in

:48:51.:48:56.

an empty carriage on our own and knowing there was no second member

:48:57.:49:01.

of staff. That is an incredibly important point. Effectively it

:49:02.:49:05.

discounts about 50% of the population. Secondly,

:49:06.:49:09.

schoolchildren. Within Eastbourne a lot of children go to Saint Richards

:49:10.:49:15.

in Bexhill. I know, because parents have spoken to me, that they would

:49:16.:49:19.

remain anxious if their children were in a carriage and they knew

:49:20.:49:24.

there was no second member of staff. Sadly, as has already been talked

:49:25.:49:29.

about by the Labour front bench, disability access. Only a couple of

:49:30.:49:36.

weeks ago, a colleague in Hamden Park within Eastbourne, a wheelchair

:49:37.:49:40.

user, had to sit on the platform as three trains went through because

:49:41.:49:44.

she could not get on. All those three reasons are very powerful

:49:45.:49:48.

reasons why I am fundamentally against DLO and I do not accept the

:49:49.:49:54.

principle and I do not care if 30% of the Network Rail already carry

:49:55.:50:00.

driver only trains. Thank you for giving way. You have explained why

:50:01.:50:04.

you think a second member of staff is important. Does the honourable

:50:05.:50:09.

gentleman accept that 90% of trains are running with that second person

:50:10.:50:13.

on board and that the alternative for the 2% that are not is that

:50:14.:50:17.

those trains do not run at all? I agree. I will certainly be

:50:18.:50:23.

addressing that when I talk about the Gibb report. If you ask members

:50:24.:50:28.

of the public around the country outside the underground because that

:50:29.:50:31.

is a different kettle of fish will stop if you ask people around the

:50:32.:50:35.

country where there are members of the public would prefer to have a

:50:36.:50:38.

second member of staff on the train ride that they would say they would

:50:39.:50:42.

prefer to have a second member of staff. In the Gibb report, it

:50:43.:50:47.

identified GTR has been the worst performing operator in a country

:50:48.:50:50.

with performance deteriorating two or three years before the current

:50:51.:50:55.

industrial dispute. I grant that within the report it identifies

:50:56.:51:03.

industrial nations as being the primary cause of the system's down

:51:04.:51:06.

for the yet it featured in only one page in the entire 163 page

:51:07.:51:10.

document. That leads me to believe just how partial was Gibb in putting

:51:11.:51:14.

together this report. I would also point out that he apparently spoke

:51:15.:51:20.

with GTR over 30 times. I was putting together a report, and

:51:21.:51:25.

government agencies over 45 times. Guess Harry Tansy spoke with the two

:51:26.:51:32.

unions? Zero. -- guess how many times he spoke? There is also

:51:33.:51:38.

directed attention given in the contract to best price. This is when

:51:39.:51:42.

GTR won the contract rather than deliverability does this meant that

:51:43.:51:49.

GTR winning without enough drivers. I understand one losing bidder

:51:50.:51:53.

included more drivers and it may have been a case that the bidder

:51:54.:51:57.

with the fewest drivers one. In other words, colleagues, it was

:51:58.:52:03.

about cost. Not about quality or customer care. It is nonsense that

:52:04.:52:08.

the Secretary of State, who unfortunately has left the chamber,

:52:09.:52:12.

for the Secretary of State to say earlier that he is trying to train

:52:13.:52:15.

more drivers and we want more train drivers. Frankly the original

:52:16.:52:21.

contract was won by GTR on cost with fewer drivers than its competitors.

:52:22.:52:25.

Next, who is leading the southern rail dispute? Who is leading from

:52:26.:52:34.

the row perspective? Is it GTR southern rail or the Government? --

:52:35.:52:41.

rail. Thank the honourable Dustman for giving way. He was not an MP

:52:42.:52:48.

when the contract was being let. Did he not raise those points at the

:52:49.:52:49.

time? Thank you for reminding me, when I

:52:50.:52:58.

was last here is an MPI was furious about Southern airline and I said

:52:59.:53:02.

they were rubbish frequently and I appreciate you allowing me to remind

:53:03.:53:07.

everyone that. Let's go back to who is actually running GTR and Southern

:53:08.:53:10.

Rail, let's go back to the Gibb Report. He says himself, well yeah I

:53:11.:53:17.

see determining the strategic direction of this dispute, we know

:53:18.:53:23.

whatever side of the House and as I said earlier I had not sponsored by

:53:24.:53:27.

the RMT, whether it is that side of the side, we know that the

:53:28.:53:32.

Government is behind this dispute because they want to bring in driver

:53:33.:53:36.

operated doors, it is obvious and as plain as the noes on my face. Yes,

:53:37.:53:44.

at the minimum that is a member of staff on the train, second number of

:53:45.:53:49.

staff, 97%, but that was not the intention at the beginning. The

:53:50.:53:53.

intention was to break the RMT, to bring in the 00. My priority is the

:53:54.:54:00.

customer. The rail passenger in Eastbourne. The thing is so

:54:01.:54:05.

frustrating and so many people in my town had suffered so much, is

:54:06.:54:09.

because the Government went into this ready to have a war, ready to

:54:10.:54:13.

have a battle, ready to beat the RMT. But you have ended up with is

:54:14.:54:19.

complete stalemate, where two sides have dug in, and the passengers, the

:54:20.:54:25.

community and people have eased one and across the south-east are

:54:26.:54:29.

suffering and I think it is ridiculous and it is about time the

:54:30.:54:32.

Government and the Secretary of State should some leadership. But I

:54:33.:54:38.

would like to do, the Minister of State is in the chair, I'll ask him,

:54:39.:54:42.

two questions before I finish, will the Government confirm or deny that

:54:43.:54:49.

the DFT has never interfered or blocked the resolution of the

:54:50.:54:55.

Southern Rail dispute and I ask him that very specifically in the

:54:56.:54:59.

chamber, in the House, with the full responsibility that the Minister has

:55:00.:55:03.

to answer truthfully, so I'll ask again. Will the Minister confirm or

:55:04.:55:08.

deny the DFT has never interfered or blocked the resolution of the

:55:09.:55:10.

Southern Rail dispute? And the second thing, which myself and a

:55:11.:55:14.

couple of other colleagues have already said, it is crystal. If the

:55:15.:55:21.

Government is serious about ending this dispute, to the benefit of the

:55:22.:55:26.

entire south-east, let alone my own constituency of Eastbourne, why

:55:27.:55:31.

won't they host the negotiations with both the unions, we know we

:55:32.:55:38.

have had opportunities to do that but they are trying to divide and

:55:39.:55:42.

rule, so what I would say, Minister, is pick up the phone tomorrow, to Mr

:55:43.:55:49.

Whelan and Aslef, and the RMT, ticket up to GTR and say, I want you

:55:50.:55:56.

meeting me tomorrow in my office in Whitehall all the unions together,

:55:57.:56:01.

all sides together with no preconditions, and I am absolutely

:56:02.:56:04.

certain if the Government have the guts of the honesty to do that we

:56:05.:56:08.

will resolve this issue within a week. Minister, I waited to hear

:56:09.:56:15.

your answer. Jeremy Corbyn. The point of agreement between me and

:56:16.:56:18.

the previous big is this has caused heartache, distress and job losses

:56:19.:56:23.

to thousands. If the -- Jeremy Corbyn.

:56:24.:56:26.

I welcome it. I think everyone acknowledges it is an serious

:56:27.:56:35.

individual and the report is both bottle at and helpful and copper

:56:36.:56:42.

fencer. The clear message from the Gibb Report is the primary cause of

:56:43.:56:47.

the appalling service was that members the workforce conducted

:56:48.:56:51.

strike action, declining over time and running system integrity.

:56:52.:56:56.

Included, if train crew were at work in a normal manner, the abbot of

:56:57.:57:01.

system, be safe and reliable service, passengers, would be

:57:02.:57:03.

delivered in an acceptable manner. The validity of Mr Gibb's words

:57:04.:57:08.

having reinforced by the tragedy percentage point improvement in

:57:09.:57:13.

performance give based Southern Rail without strikes. GTR has shown that

:57:14.:57:17.

with the support of its workforce it can deliver is Mr Gibb says an

:57:18.:57:20.

acceptable level of service to the customers. I like I'm sure all was

:57:21.:57:27.

in this House and horrified that we are seeing a return to industrial

:57:28.:57:31.

action. Last week public sector perishing was an issue on which

:57:32.:57:34.

people position was keen to land as the Government. I'm acutely aware of

:57:35.:57:38.

how many public sector workers uses trains and therefore on behalf of

:57:39.:57:42.

train drivers rejected the offer were ferried in 4% over four years.

:57:43.:57:45.

Passengers will draw their own conclusions. Passengers do not

:57:46.:57:52.

believe, was he drank it in? If he would like to get in, does he think

:57:53.:57:59.

it is a bad thing that they were putting up members? I have offered

:58:00.:58:06.

him the duty to say that the 24% rise is adequate but he has declined

:58:07.:58:10.

and I understand. I will return to my few words. Passengers do not

:58:11.:58:18.

believe trains operated back Nestle bar and said, or that Germany,

:58:19.:58:23.

Austria, Canada, and safeguard passengers do not want much. This

:58:24.:58:27.

ability to and will be a sister did a job so that they can get into work

:58:28.:58:31.

to do theirs. Due to the couple statistics provided by May

:58:32.:58:35.

honourable friend this morning, they confirmed that it be 70% or so of

:58:36.:58:40.

Southern trains, but used to operate the second person on board, 97.25%

:58:41.:58:46.

continued to do so. Those trains have a second person not preoccupied

:58:47.:58:51.

by opening and closing doors but they are to help passengers. 97.25%

:58:52.:58:56.

is a high proportion. Reflecting the additional numbers of OBS that have

:58:57.:59:03.

been recruited. It is not as high as I would like nor is it as high as

:59:04.:59:09.

the intended to be. The emperor 100%. However I believe that all

:59:10.:59:15.

users of trains would rather see the trains continue to run to gather the

:59:16.:59:18.

passengers. They do not, the negative impact of resources all

:59:19.:59:23.

would be far more than a few percent diminish in service. It would lead

:59:24.:59:26.

to many dozens of passengers being delayed wholly unnecessarily. I

:59:27.:59:32.

would be delighted to give way. Just to clarify, after this mornings

:59:33.:59:38.

meeting, that the unions are striking because 2.75% of trains are

:59:39.:59:43.

not running with on-board supervisors, this will impact

:59:44.:59:45.

hundreds of thousands of paying passengers. I thank my honourable

:59:46.:59:51.

friend that intervention. She really fast wants them why they are still

:59:52.:59:56.

on strike. My understanding is that it is over 2.75% of the 17% are

:59:57.:00:02.

traditionally had a second person on board. And as I said I am convinced

:00:03.:00:07.

that her constituents and my constituents would rather those

:00:08.:00:11.

trained continued to run. I look forward to them being 100% cupboard

:00:12.:00:19.

and 9725% shows to me, but the recruitment, so they are serious

:00:20.:00:22.

about insuring that is a second person on board the sense.

:00:23.:00:24.

Passengers have had enough and it is high time the unions ended their

:00:25.:00:29.

action. However as the Secretary of State made clear, it would be little

:00:30.:00:34.

this report 's death it did we focus on industrial action. It is far

:00:35.:00:39.

broader and useful than that. What grounds do that but the depth of the

:00:40.:00:42.

operating trains in what is usually used and Compaq servers. Southern is

:00:43.:00:45.

as the report states simultaneously running at up to the capacity at

:00:46.:00:50.

peak times and undergoing a period of dramatic change. The introduction

:00:51.:00:54.

of class 700s, new doubles, three bridges and Swansea, doubling the

:00:55.:00:58.

Thames in peak hour trains to 24 through central London. Major

:00:59.:01:04.

production at London Bridge. All good improvement of passengers and a

:01:05.:01:07.

vital to keep really going which has seen a massive increase in passenger

:01:08.:01:12.

numbers. As the Gibb Report makes clear Southern has been under strain

:01:13.:01:14.

with arrival in perception, a timetable that is very tight, but

:01:15.:01:18.

overpowered at peak times services. The railways are in some ways to

:01:19.:01:23.

victim of success. It is a British rail, which the opposition still

:01:24.:01:26.

seem to recall so fondly, the network was declining, and as Gibb

:01:27.:01:34.

points out it was lightly used. In 20 years about aviation, have grown

:01:35.:01:39.

such as that in Southern, more passengers travelling on at any time

:01:40.:01:42.

in the last 90 years. The office as Gibb bases on cooperative working as

:01:43.:01:45.

welcome as I'll pet. He has commended to ensure that a place

:01:46.:01:49.

many of which have already been invented. I am pleased that in

:01:50.:01:53.

January on receipt of the report, the Government immediately committed

:01:54.:01:57.

300 million to be the basic perceptual requirements set out. It

:01:58.:02:00.

is good to hear the Department boss likes recruitment to ensure this

:02:01.:02:02.

region secures investment it requires. Also lessons for operator.

:02:03.:02:09.

Gibb makes clear the complexity of the Southern operators task. There

:02:10.:02:13.

are you and I'm certainly not among them who viewed the scale of the

:02:14.:02:16.

franchise as optimal. However there are those who believe that firing up

:02:17.:02:23.

it would be a simple game, I think Gibb argues persuasively that such

:02:24.:02:25.

an approach is made. Twice operators have been referred to the Salamis,

:02:26.:02:31.

deportation is of greater no report, by government and supervision. They

:02:32.:02:37.

are running at a steady state. Southern will appeared with

:02:38.:02:40.

substantial change. The profession is that firing a brick dust refining

:02:41.:02:45.

the operator would have been at best risky and at worst could lead to

:02:46.:02:48.

chaotic failure. However it appears to me that the operator in bidding

:02:49.:02:52.

for the franchise was to a ballistic as to what they might be able to

:02:53.:02:59.

achieve through software. The system can be highly efficient when it

:03:00.:03:02.

works well. It should in theory work baby. Whether that requires perfect

:03:03.:03:07.

operating conditions and that is not what Network Rail delivers. I never

:03:08.:03:09.

delighted by the Secretary of State public commitment by addition

:03:10.:03:13.

tribals that are being trained and coming onto line. I'm pleased there

:03:14.:03:16.

are more on-board staff know that at the start of this process. They will

:03:17.:03:20.

increase resilience and reduce dependence on campus of the

:03:21.:03:22.

Secretary of State is determined to ensure that we have modern resilient

:03:23.:03:26.

railway delivery passengers and I can graduate him and commissioning

:03:27.:03:28.

this report. And I think Mr Gibb. For his work. I am grateful and I

:03:29.:03:36.

appear to have a very good hit rate with you so far, two days in a row

:03:37.:03:44.

at getting called! Madam Deputy Speaker, I have seen great men and

:03:45.:03:50.

women stand at the dispatch box and take responsibility for things that

:03:51.:03:54.

very often were beyond their control but within the department was in

:03:55.:03:59.

agreement. If we are honest today's debate has proceeded along some

:04:00.:04:04.

pretty well worn tramlines. Those on these benches saying that the entire

:04:05.:04:07.

problem with Southern Rail is to do with industrial action. Those, and

:04:08.:04:14.

these benches, try to acknowledge that there are wider implications

:04:15.:04:17.

about the systemic nature of the very here. I have to say aye think

:04:18.:04:23.

this debate was set up to fail from the very opening remarks and it is

:04:24.:04:27.

important to be aware of the fact that this is not a bug in the system

:04:28.:04:33.

that the Secretary of State chooses not to take responsibility for the

:04:34.:04:38.

situation that we find. It is a feature. I have to say aye am not

:04:39.:04:40.

someone that has to declare any interest other than being someone

:04:41.:04:47.

who commutes daily on Corvette by attempting to get this place. I have

:04:48.:04:52.

in the forefront of my mind by constituent everyday experiences

:04:53.:04:56.

which in some cases mirror my own. We have to take responsibility in

:04:57.:05:00.

this House but the failings of the system as a whole and plot a course

:05:01.:05:04.

about of the very real failings that there are other will go on to say

:05:05.:05:07.

why that is an important thing to do right now. How did we get? Gibb

:05:08.:05:12.

identifies three or four major factors. The first one being that

:05:13.:05:16.

there is no single system operator. He says the Russian 90's

:05:17.:05:21.

privatisation failed to understand the critical needs of the system

:05:22.:05:25.

with regards to Southern in particular. We see that in the

:05:26.:05:29.

fragmentation that happens right across the planning and response to

:05:30.:05:33.

critical failures. I myself have had conversations with the train

:05:34.:05:36.

operating companies who have come up with the revelation that the

:05:37.:05:39.

particular members of staff under control and the Canberra has managed

:05:40.:05:42.

to shops and better so that other train operators who are already in

:05:43.:05:46.

the control room. But there are services in front. It seems a pretty

:05:47.:05:50.

basic failing. But it underlines the fact that there isn't a single point

:05:51.:05:56.

of accountability for this failure. I am grateful to him. Does he not

:05:57.:06:01.

think that that is the end of all but the Department for Transport

:06:02.:06:04.

should be stepping into? My honourable friend pre-empts my idea

:06:05.:06:12.

in the first place. That actually recognising this is a critical piece

:06:13.:06:16.

of infrastructure that is really important for London, the south-east

:06:17.:06:19.

and the whole United Kingdom, that we should treat it in that regard.

:06:20.:06:25.

Something that should be clustered actually and overseen by government.

:06:26.:06:27.

Secondly the cleansing programme which is going to bring very real

:06:28.:06:33.

benefits, ?6 billion investment, -- Thameslink programme. There is very

:06:34.:06:39.

basic failures. Specified babe DMT and that they Network Rail is a

:06:40.:06:42.

programme, a major infrastructure programme but it is put at risk by

:06:43.:06:49.

the basics. The Gibb Report instructs DFT to make a call in this

:06:50.:06:52.

calendar year about whether or not given what we know about the system

:06:53.:06:57.

we can turn on the increase of capacity through the ?16 investment.

:06:58.:07:01.

But the shocking state of affairs to find yourself think that the basic

:07:02.:07:07.

failures of this system doesn't have a shotgun and so one could cause us

:07:08.:07:10.

to waste that money order to delay its implementation. In my

:07:11.:07:15.

constituency in Luton where we have been trying to get a stationary

:07:16.:07:17.

built since the Government cancelled the money when they first came to

:07:18.:07:20.

power in 2010 when the need to assess but as was recognised as one

:07:21.:07:25.

of the ten worst early stations in the country, yet effective the

:07:26.:07:27.

cleansing programmes actually to make a recession worse as we have

:07:28.:07:30.

gone to 12 current platforms and we have refused to disable access. I

:07:31.:07:34.

struggle to think Mike is Zachery the benefits that are there. My beer

:07:35.:07:41.

is we cannot explain to the constituents why there is not

:07:42.:07:44.

commensurate increase in capacity because of the basic failing 38

:07:45.:07:45.

identifies. Renewing sleepers, tackling

:07:46.:08:09.

vegetation were dealing with fencing, what an indictment on a

:08:10.:08:13.

system that does not prioritise these basic things without keep. I

:08:14.:08:23.

was on the transport select committee as was the minister in his

:08:24.:08:27.

place. There was a report on cold weather disruption. The rail running

:08:28.:08:35.

south of London was a major critical problem and yet we still have

:08:36.:08:40.

struggled to tackle that basic. I hope the transport select two will

:08:41.:08:45.

look at the future shape of the franchise and the list opportunity

:08:46.:08:48.

that members will have a chance put in now. All of the situation was led

:08:49.:08:56.

by government decision-making. In the last parliament and running up

:08:57.:09:00.

to add to give you that with the major infrastructure programme

:09:01.:09:03.

coming in it was not appropriate to let the franchise in the normal,

:09:04.:09:07.

commercial way in which it was. My own view is it was better for

:09:08.:09:11.

government to manage it. It was one third of all passenger journeys in

:09:12.:09:15.

this country across these stations. The Government found a halfway

:09:16.:09:20.

house. They went with a management style contract. They took on a large

:09:21.:09:25.

degree of risk. In my opinion that was a mistake. It was neither fair

:09:26.:09:32.

nor fowl. It put us into a position where we are trying to manage a

:09:33.:10:07.

why the franchisee was chosen are first place. Gibbs comments

:10:08.:10:08.

why the franchisee was chosen are instructive in this report. It is

:10:09.:10:08.

sufficient drivers working. They secret that Sunday services for

:10:09.:10:09.

sufficient drivers working. They have taken on a contract.

:10:10.:10:09.

If this were any other kind of project other than the row is we

:10:10.:10:15.

would have an Olympic style delivery authority taking over this network.

:10:16.:10:23.

-- the railways. It is key to our infrastructure. No one is

:10:24.:10:27.

accountable. This message from the Secretary of State was not to stand

:10:28.:10:31.

up and take responsibility, it was to say, I am not to blame. I think

:10:32.:10:37.

it is time we have a serious discussion. The franchise highlights

:10:38.:10:41.

the problems with the fragmented railway system. Can I warmly welcome

:10:42.:10:47.

you to your place and also welcome the Gibb report on the performance

:10:48.:10:52.

of Southern rail? I thank Chris Gibb for posing some serious challenges

:10:53.:10:56.

for us all to consider this afternoon. Can I focus on a couple

:10:57.:11:01.

of the proposals before turning my attention to what the report

:11:02.:11:05.

outlines as the primary cause for the system integrity to fail, namely

:11:06.:11:10.

the industrial action and the logical position taken by rail

:11:11.:11:14.

unions and their members. If I can talk about resilience rail has been

:11:15.:11:18.

one of the great success stories. The success has caused the current

:11:19.:11:26.

problem in that passenger numbers have doubled. The investment in

:11:27.:11:30.

trains and track has not. With 23% of all rail passengers using the

:11:31.:11:34.

southern network, it only takes one ingredient to fail and the entire

:11:35.:11:38.

network goes down. There are difficult sections within this

:11:39.:11:43.

report for Honourable members to consider. He recommends that trains

:11:44.:11:48.

nonstop at more stations, daytime closures occurred to allow for

:11:49.:11:53.

engineering. Off-peak services are reduced to prepare for the challenge

:11:54.:11:58.

of the peak period and rush hour. The Gatwick Station is transferred

:11:59.:12:01.

over to the airport operator and depots are used to prevent empty

:12:02.:12:08.

trains on the network. It is important to recognise that it is

:12:09.:12:11.

these measures which taken together could give the system the resilience

:12:12.:12:18.

it so badly needs. Can I also touch on the transfer of some services

:12:19.:12:22.

from Southern to Houston? My neighbour, the right honourable

:12:23.:12:26.

member for Hastings and why has been champion of the project to extend

:12:27.:12:31.

High Speed 1 from Ashfield to Beckford, Hastings and thrive. When

:12:32.:12:36.

the innovation of train technology meaning expensive overhead electric

:12:37.:12:39.

occasion can be substituted by hybrid trains which charge

:12:40.:12:43.

themselves over the track. This project looks within reach. It would

:12:44.:12:47.

require this part of the network to be transferred from seven to

:12:48.:12:53.

south-eastern. We welcome this recommendation in the report. We

:12:54.:12:55.

asked the Department for Transport, Network Rail and the train operators

:12:56.:13:01.

to extend High Speed 1 and make the necessary investment. The Sussex

:13:02.:13:05.

coast is at the bottom of the table for capacity, with only 52% of

:13:06.:13:10.

passengers satisfied that they have sufficient carriage space. We need

:13:11.:13:14.

to extend High Speed 1 to improve the experience. Can I touch on the

:13:15.:13:20.

industrial action? Having a seat on the transport select committee for

:13:21.:13:24.

the last term, the constituency reliant on Southern services to get

:13:25.:13:28.

people to work and college and a season ticket on Southern for the

:13:29.:13:37.

last ten years, I have witnessed the logical and devastating impact the

:13:38.:13:40.

industrial action has caused. No drivers or second crew members are

:13:41.:13:45.

losing their jobs. They will only operate without a second crew member

:13:46.:13:49.

in exceptional circumstances, like the second crewman been stuck on

:13:50.:13:53.

another part of the line. No employees are to lose pay. Train

:13:54.:13:58.

drivers are being offered a 23% pay rise to take their four day, 35 hour

:13:59.:14:05.

week to ?60,000. Most would earn ?70,000 by working the fifth day.

:14:06.:14:09.

The crew is not being asked to do anything novel. The dispute is

:14:10.:14:13.

allegedly about a driver controlling doors. 30% of our rail network has

:14:14.:14:18.

run in this manner for over 30 years stop many of those trains have no

:14:19.:14:25.

second crew member at all. Also this is deemed as safe practice. We have

:14:26.:14:30.

touched on the report from Doctor Ian Prosser, the rail safety

:14:31.:14:34.

regulator. His report was called on by the rail unions to confirm

:14:35.:14:38.

whether this practice was safe. He did just that. I find it somewhat

:14:39.:14:43.

distressing. In addition to it being as safe, there are arguments that it

:14:44.:14:49.

is even safer. When looking at Merseyrail, the coroner at an

:14:50.:14:52.

inquest following the death of a passenger who fell onto tracks,

:14:53.:14:56.

recommended that the operation be focused within one person. So, this

:14:57.:15:04.

indeed could be safer as a result. You have the driver controlling the

:15:05.:15:06.

doors and the movement of the train. That links me onto another matter.

:15:07.:15:11.

As I saw, when I went with the transport select committee to view

:15:12.:15:15.

in a train driver 's cab and travel in the train, the video display unit

:15:16.:15:19.

shows when the carriages are opening and closing. It is entirely possible

:15:20.:15:26.

to see what is coming in and out. In addition, that video has the

:15:27.:15:30.

capability to run as the train moves through the station. At the moment,

:15:31.:15:35.

conductor cannot see what occurs on the platform once the doors have

:15:36.:15:39.

closed stop unfortunately that video operation is not being used and it

:15:40.:15:43.

should be. This could be even safer than the current practice. Whilst

:15:44.:15:49.

the lack of logic is frustrating, it is the devastating impact on

:15:50.:15:52.

families, individuals and businesses which affect pressures that are

:15:53.:16:01.

affected most. Many are earning less than ?49,000 cannot commute to

:16:02.:16:04.

London. They have lost precious time with their families they will never

:16:05.:16:09.

get back. The economy, much of it based on travel and tourism in my

:16:10.:16:14.

area has lost ?40 million. Public services have suffered because

:16:15.:16:18.

essential workers cannot get to hospitals and schools or not we

:16:19.:16:21.

locate to our region because they will be unable to do so. Including

:16:22.:16:27.

the party opposite, to call for the protection and investment of public

:16:28.:16:31.

services on the one hand while supporting denigration of the strike

:16:32.:16:36.

on the other is rank hypocrisy and displays. -- disgrace. I hope we can

:16:37.:16:41.

put these findings in place and the unions will cease their pointless

:16:42.:16:48.

action. After the next speaker, the time limit will be reduced to five

:16:49.:16:54.

minutes. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. What a huge honour

:16:55.:16:59.

it is to be called to this Parliament under your leadership in

:17:00.:17:04.

the chair. Following on from the member for Luton South, I share his

:17:05.:17:08.

frustrations. We have been speaking most about the things that Chris

:17:09.:17:15.

Gibb spoke about the lease. That has been an intense form of frustration.

:17:16.:17:20.

-- the least. If the Gibb report teaches anything great is that there

:17:21.:17:25.

is a lot of blame to go around. No organisation is blameless. Right now

:17:26.:17:29.

a small amount of humility will go a very long way. That is why the Gibb

:17:30.:17:33.

report is such a useful tool and a credit to him as an author. For the

:17:34.:17:38.

first time parliamentarians and passengers can see behind the smoke

:17:39.:17:41.

and mirrors and grasp the full extent of the dysfunction of the

:17:42.:17:47.

root cause of today's problems. As the Gibb report itself states, Olly

:17:48.:17:52.

elements in the system had been under strain. Unreliable

:17:53.:17:56.

infrastructure, a tight timetable, key stations that are overcrowded,

:17:57.:18:00.

depots that are full and in the wrong place and people involved in

:18:01.:18:04.

formal and informal industrial action. This, in one paragraph,

:18:05.:18:08.

explains why the network has experienced so many catastrophic

:18:09.:18:13.

failures, even before the start of the most recent industrial action.

:18:14.:18:17.

Southern rail reduced its timetable by two thirds for almost four

:18:18.:18:22.

months. It was a terrible blow for commuters. The reason the shortage

:18:23.:18:26.

of drivers. It was inexplicable to passengers have such a stupid act of

:18:27.:18:31.

planning and incompetence could have happened and the consequences were

:18:32.:18:37.

so very far reaching. At that time, neither Southern nor government

:18:38.:18:41.

would act set responsibility for the shortages, simply blaming the length

:18:42.:18:45.

of time it takes to train new drivers. When things go wrong,

:18:46.:18:53.

passengers deserve two things. An honest explanation as to what has

:18:54.:18:55.

gone wrong and the belief that lessons have been learned and will

:18:56.:18:58.

never be repeated. The time has come. This has become the new normal

:18:59.:19:04.

for passengers. It is a normal that has wrecked careers, broken

:19:05.:19:07.

relationships and hampered the economy in the South East of

:19:08.:19:11.

England. Places like Brighton Hove Albion have lost millions of pounds

:19:12.:19:17.

in revenue while charities lost thousands of pounds last summer

:19:18.:19:21.

alone. Continued failure on the round network is not a victimless

:19:22.:19:25.

situation. The impact is felt deep and wide throughout the communities.

:19:26.:19:32.

This is the reason why the southern commuter APPG was established almost

:19:33.:19:37.

two years ago. It has been an honour to co-chair the group with the right

:19:38.:19:40.

honourable member for Mid Sussex sitting in his seat now. I believed

:19:41.:19:45.

it has been a vehicle transcending party boundaries which has been

:19:46.:19:49.

incredibly important in such a difficult situation. On the way

:19:50.:19:53.

forward, the Gibb report is clear. We need better leadership, more

:19:54.:19:57.

partnership and more investment than has been the case for generations.

:19:58.:20:01.

On leadership the report says, the custodian of the overall system

:20:02.:20:09.

Integra three -- integrity be better trusted and identified. There has

:20:10.:20:17.

been a leadership vacuum created by botched privatisation and an over

:20:18.:20:23.

fragmented system. What on earth is the point of having the Secretary of

:20:24.:20:27.

State, rail minister, and the entire Department for Transport if we need

:20:28.:20:30.

one new person to come forward and give leadership to the rail network?

:20:31.:20:34.

What exactly are ministers doing or not doing which is leaving set a

:20:35.:20:41.

leadership vacuum in the rail network? Rather than having new rail

:20:42.:20:44.

bosses or super boss, can't the ones we have now do their jobs properly?

:20:45.:20:49.

Heaven knows they are paid enough to do it. Would my honourable friend

:20:50.:20:54.

agree that if the minister is unable to show that leadership, he should

:20:55.:20:59.

think about resigning. It is an honour to take an intervention for

:21:00.:21:03.

my honourable friend for Brighton Kemptown for the very first time I

:21:04.:21:08.

welcome him to his seat. I think there have been failures right

:21:09.:21:11.

across the board. What passengers need is for people in those

:21:12.:21:15.

positions to get a grip without delay. Infrastructure investment is

:21:16.:21:20.

the final piece in the jigsaw. As the report stakes, the

:21:21.:21:23.

infrastructure and southern network is a poor and unreliable condition.

:21:24.:21:27.

The blame rests with successive governments and not this one alone.

:21:28.:21:34.

the historic underinvestment in the historic

:21:35.:21:35.

their rail network. The South East their rail network. The South East

:21:36.:21:39.

of England accounts for 30% of the of England accounts for 30% of the

:21:40.:21:40.

country's passenger journeys are only 15% of investment. At a time

:21:41.:21:46.

when the country is focused on HF too, too little is being spent on

:21:47.:21:52.

what Lord Adonis has said is the greatest transport challenge we

:21:53.:21:57.

face. -- HS2. That is getting people to and from work every day in the

:21:58.:22:02.

South East of England. Governments has unlocked millions of pounds of

:22:03.:22:08.

funding in the south-east to stand a chance this level of investment must

:22:09.:22:12.

continue into the next control period when this one comes to an

:22:13.:22:19.

end. I will give way. Would he agree, I agree everywhere to he

:22:20.:22:24.

says... Would he agree that it is now more important to come to an

:22:25.:22:29.

agreement between all the parties, so that this infrastructure

:22:30.:22:33.

investment may proceed? Without it, it frankly would not make sense to

:22:34.:22:38.

have that level of infrastructure. I could not agree more. I have said so

:22:39.:22:43.

off the record and would be happy to do so here. As I have said to them

:22:44.:22:48.

and step in person, I hope the ministers will be more muscular and

:22:49.:22:52.

active in this process and not sit on the sidelines. Every party needs

:22:53.:22:56.

to get around the table in the most active way to resolve this problem

:22:57.:23:00.

for and on behalf of passengers. It is imperative that the Government

:23:01.:23:04.

confirms without delay and it will carry on the investment into the

:23:05.:23:08.

next control period. Guaranteeing up to ?1 billion would be available

:23:09.:23:14.

through the next control period in its entirety. Once the industrial

:23:15.:23:16.

action is settled and the remaining structural challenges are the focus

:23:17.:23:21.

of our attention, passengers will rightfully be demanding month on

:23:22.:23:24.

month improvements in the service they experience. Right now the

:23:25.:23:28.

infrastructure that underpins our system is too weak to offer the

:23:29.:23:31.

robust improvements passengers deserve. We must move unrelentingly

:23:32.:23:36.

towards the point where our rail network is bullet-proof. Within a

:23:37.:23:41.

month of becoming an MP, I had asked ministers to scrap the 313 units

:23:42.:23:46.

from our coast away route. Some were built in 1976 and none had a toilet.

:23:47.:23:50.

These trains are loathed by everyone. It begs the question of

:23:51.:23:58.

the report. Some of the things it finds so blindingly obvious, why did

:23:59.:24:01.

it take the report to say in the first place? Then there are suicide

:24:02.:24:05.

hotspots, bridges being struck by vehicles due to lack of signage,

:24:06.:24:10.

unnecessary crowded timetables that are there for historic reasons. Why

:24:11.:24:13.

do we need an Independent review to tell as these things?

:24:14.:24:19.

Government, GTO and Network Rail should easily have the capacity to

:24:20.:24:23.

sort these things out without the need for an independent assessor.

:24:24.:24:26.

But we are where we are and at last we have a manual on how to improve

:24:27.:24:30.

our system. The salad to the Government and its partners to make

:24:31.:24:35.

it a reality and this Parliament to scrutinise, challenge and support

:24:36.:24:38.

when need be every step of the weight and everyone will set up in

:24:39.:24:44.

the task of doing so. What a pleasure to see you in your place

:24:45.:24:48.

Madam Deputy Speaker and may I thank the honourable member for hope for

:24:49.:24:51.

all the work he has done along with my honourable friend, right

:24:52.:24:56.

honourable friend forgive me, for the all-party biology group Southern

:24:57.:24:58.

Rail and I hope we will be reforming as soon as he is ready. This is a

:24:59.:25:02.

particularly important debate for me and it is one that is a cluster made

:25:03.:25:09.

home in the sense that I actually live near to a tray station and the

:25:10.:25:12.

train a Southern Rail line that they take to get here. This is a huge

:25:13.:25:18.

impact on my life and the life of many of the people I have the

:25:19.:25:21.

privilege to represent. Because there are people around my

:25:22.:25:26.

communities who are not able to get home or get to school and therefore

:25:27.:25:29.

the parents even if they could have gone to work can't because they

:25:30.:25:32.

don't have that southern emergency childcare. I have been working

:25:33.:25:36.

closely with my right honourable friend the Minister who has done

:25:37.:25:40.

enormous amounts of work late in working to make sure that the rail

:25:41.:25:45.

network is getting the money it requires but here we find in the

:25:46.:25:48.

Gibb Report so many indications of why this isn't just about money. It

:25:49.:25:53.

is about so much more. It is about huge amounts of time and

:25:54.:25:58.

infrastructure. And that is why I am going to skipper with the industrial

:25:59.:26:01.

relations that have been so adequately covered by so many by an

:26:02.:26:04.

honourable and let honourable friend and then going to skip over so the

:26:05.:26:07.

aspects of union power that have been touched upon by friends, even

:26:08.:26:16.

if they are Crosshouse. I'm instead going to focus on areas that I think

:26:17.:26:19.

we read need to take the Gibb Report very seriously. As various people

:26:20.:26:25.

may know electrification of the field line has been spoken about

:26:26.:26:29.

since the 1970s. If it was just for historical knowledge, the last I

:26:30.:26:35.

believe of the tracks that we did use a steam engine for regular

:26:36.:26:38.

commuting services right up until the 1970s. And now that legacy is

:26:39.:26:42.

coming through on the diesel line. Surely enough is enough. It is 2017.

:26:43.:26:48.

Thomas Tank engine now is on an iPad. He is indeed in a book and

:26:49.:26:53.

immoral. And yet still we had diesel trains running on what should

:26:54.:26:58.

frankly be electric tracks. Please Minister, can we have the

:26:59.:27:01.

electricians is factual electrification to need and catch up

:27:02.:27:07.

with the iPad generation? There are many people who I have been working

:27:08.:27:13.

closely with who have spoken about this and spoken about how we can get

:27:14.:27:18.

this done. How we can get the lines jewelled or rather read jewelled is

:27:19.:27:21.

in fact he jewelled line was removed in the 1990s. And then perhaps and

:27:22.:27:28.

here is the real thing, perhaps we can get the line can run beyond

:27:29.:27:32.

upfield. Imagine that, you taking your holidays, but instead of

:27:33.:27:37.

driving down coming you don't want to do that through Crandon and South

:27:38.:27:39.

London and others crowded bits instead you get on at Westminster,

:27:40.:27:44.

you get the Jubilee line straight through to London Bridge and you get

:27:45.:27:48.

on their and you down Saddam most beautiful tracks of Kent and then

:27:49.:27:51.

you end up by accident in Sussex but you still go through the beautiful

:27:52.:28:00.

parts of Kent. Angie. Mike imagine that, for an evening in Brighton

:28:01.:28:04.

after a day in the House. I can see you are ready desires of those

:28:05.:28:09.

moments. I can see this is something we can all important because the

:28:10.:28:12.

reality is there are so many issues that we can touch on, the parking at

:28:13.:28:22.

content and Hebrew. So many folk still have to drive to help them but

:28:23.:28:29.

for Sevenoaks and the impact on the info from it, there are no lanes and

:28:30.:28:34.

cyclist and horse riders and this is a danger for all of us. If we look

:28:35.:28:43.

at the last of these, perhaps most important, the fact we have got to

:28:44.:28:46.

invest in our future. Time and again we have lived off the legacy of our

:28:47.:28:53.

great grandparents' thoughts and dreams. These investments that but

:28:54.:28:58.

the trains, bridges and roads, they were built by Victorian generation

:28:59.:29:02.

and Edwardian generation. Now in this new Elizabethan age surely we

:29:03.:29:07.

need to implement that investment. Because when we do spend on the rail

:29:08.:29:11.

networks we're not spending on getting five minutes closer into

:29:12.:29:16.

London, no, we're spending on making our nation great and we do it

:29:17.:29:21.

because London isn't just the people who live in it, all great

:29:22.:29:27.

metropolises depend on the networks that they feed off and there is none

:29:28.:29:32.

greater than ours. And there is none that requires more investment. Thank

:29:33.:29:40.

you. Almost a century ago become pain to get a train station at which

:29:41.:29:46.

in its fields began. The question in Parliament. Recorded by Hansard in

:29:47.:29:55.

the early 1930s. I was part of the campaign for a quarter-century and

:29:56.:29:57.

you can imagine my delight in 2008 were the first train arrived eight

:29:58.:30:06.

minutes past four on Monday the 2nd of June. The station connects Mitch

:30:07.:30:12.

in central London in just 19 minutes that I could 90 minutes. Since it

:30:13.:30:16.

opened the growth of the area has been remarkable with residents now

:30:17.:30:21.

able to read in central London Mitch Eastfield has been opposed by local

:30:22.:30:24.

housing and has enabled for students and teachers to access St Mark's

:30:25.:30:30.

Academy and other schools. The opening of the station is one of my

:30:31.:30:40.

most good achievement since... As well as the other stationed in my

:30:41.:30:43.

constituency including St Helier Yacht Club Mitch junction. My

:30:44.:30:51.

constituents and many of the other 3000 passengers who use Southern the

:30:52.:30:54.

real everyday pay extortionate rates for an appalling service. All the

:30:55.:31:03.

tools but therefore the growth of Mitcham. The worst rail disruption

:31:04.:31:09.

since 1994. A phone call yesterday from my constituent summed it all

:31:10.:31:18.

up. The drivers are often missing, the trains broken down and I don't

:31:19.:31:21.

think there is a single day when the train is on time and that is not

:31:22.:31:27.

because of striking stuff. My constituent was put on disciplinary

:31:28.:31:30.

action and subsequently lost her job in retail due to the unacceptable

:31:31.:31:35.

regularity of southern's delays. Her story is not alone. Only last month

:31:36.:31:41.

my constituent William that his dream job as the company he worked

:31:42.:31:44.

for could not continue to awaiting his likeness. My constituent Collis

:31:45.:31:54.

has the phrase, daily REG ordinand mixed-use generator. That is not

:31:55.:32:02.

what they deserve when they pay over ?3000 a year. In the last week

:32:03.:32:07.

services and my constituency had been slashed by even more than

:32:08.:32:10.

publicised and the current revised timetable has dropped direct

:32:11.:32:16.

off-peak services from London Victoria, similarly the proposed new

:32:17.:32:20.

timetable from May 20 18th seed a reduction in rush-hour trains and

:32:21.:32:23.

the off-peak trains have a cup of nearly 30 minutes. It is so

:32:24.:32:27.

frustrating to see the intermediate services fly through Mitcham

:32:28.:32:31.

Eastfields without stopping. Helping this very shires at the expense of

:32:32.:32:40.

suburban Mitcham Eastfields. It is apparent that this is not working

:32:41.:32:44.

and too little improvement. I believe the services should be

:32:45.:32:47.

transferred to the Mayor of London. Transport for London clearly has the

:32:48.:32:51.

experience and proven track record of running world-class public

:32:52.:32:54.

transport in the capital. In fact the Gibb Report suggests that parts

:32:55.:32:56.

of Southern Rail would be better operated by Transport for London and

:32:57.:33:01.

they wonder whether that is the reason that the whole of appendix

:33:02.:33:04.

nine has been deducted from the report. This issue is beyond

:33:05.:33:09.

politics and it is affecting the quality of life are thousands of

:33:10.:33:12.

people. People who get up early, go to work, pay their taxes and on top

:33:13.:33:18.

of a hideously high fares to do so and all they ask for in return is

:33:19.:33:28.

from the trains to run on time. Thank you. I welcome the Gibb Report

:33:29.:33:35.

and agreed with almost every single one of its findings. I won't go over

:33:36.:33:40.

many of the comments that had been said by honourable and right

:33:41.:33:43.

honourable member so saddening. But my constituency of Lewis have been

:33:44.:33:49.

particularly affected by the 18 months of destruction that we face

:33:50.:33:53.

and the saloon rail network. It is a constituency silly by Southern Rail

:33:54.:33:57.

so there are no other alternative routes by rail around my

:33:58.:34:02.

consistency. Also it is a very rural constituencies other bus service in

:34:03.:34:06.

many parts and people either drive or get the train were left

:34:07.:34:09.

completely standard. And the 18 months sheer misery caused by a

:34:10.:34:16.

whole range, laid out in the Gibb Report and I am no fan of Southern

:34:17.:34:21.

Rail, they haven't played their part in this, has lead to dangerous

:34:22.:34:26.

conditions for many passengers. Many times a week that at Haywards Heath

:34:27.:34:29.

Wendy Kane is terminated and you can go no further. On a dark winters

:34:30.:34:34.

night when there are no taxis around, no other way of getting

:34:35.:34:37.

round, elderly passengers that there, young man's desperate to get

:34:38.:34:42.

on to their children, and there are people just trying to get home from

:34:43.:34:44.

work. And that has been the legacy of the last 18 months. We are a

:34:45.:34:49.

tourist destination is set on the beautiful South Coast but also in

:34:50.:34:53.

the South Downs national park and the destruction has hit at peak

:34:54.:34:58.

times, the tourist season last summer where we saw a 25% drop in

:34:59.:35:01.

business in many of our retail areas. And they were ahead again

:35:02.:35:06.

during the Christmas period so this has been a devastating time for the

:35:07.:35:12.

poorest parts of my constituency and businesses only just starting to

:35:13.:35:17.

pick up now. Things have improved. Performance rates have improved. We

:35:18.:35:20.

are now ranting into percent mark of daily performance which has to be

:35:21.:35:26.

welcomed. That much of 90%. Passengers feel safe on the train

:35:27.:35:31.

service and businesses are starting to customers coming back to business

:35:32.:35:35.

and for this to be starting up once again with overtime bans and

:35:36.:35:39.

balloting protection is absolutely heartbreaking. We are seeing the

:35:40.:35:45.

second person on boards advises on trains I know when I go back later

:35:46.:35:49.

that I see that second person and they are reassuring to have them on

:35:50.:35:52.

their and I would not support a deal that would remove them completely.

:35:53.:35:56.

So I absolutely welcome the work they do and I am pleased they are

:35:57.:36:00.

still there. But so then do still have some passenger care issues to

:36:01.:36:06.

tackle. -- Southern Rail. When the trains are overcrowded we see in the

:36:07.:36:09.

Gibb Report we are the most congested rail network in the

:36:10.:36:13.

south-east. Does trains are heavily congested. It is an hour and a half

:36:14.:36:16.

journey to London. Time after time even this week the overtime ban then

:36:17.:36:22.

after classifying first-class. We had an incident only last week of a

:36:23.:36:25.

pregnant woman being told off for sitting in first class. And yet

:36:26.:36:29.

other chains have been cancelled because of the overtime ban and that

:36:30.:36:32.

is a Southern Rail customer service issue. That is something that should

:36:33.:36:37.

be acceptable that you shouldn't be acceptable in this day and age. The

:36:38.:36:46.

facility is... I raised the issue above the toilet facilities at the

:36:47.:36:51.

station. Haywards Heath where are trains joined to the London have

:36:52.:36:55.

produced fantastic facilities know where you can drive in with the new

:36:56.:36:59.

car park and get a lift down straight onto the farm. There are no

:37:00.:37:01.

toilet for disabled passengers. It is that on -- customer care that is

:37:02.:37:10.

need to be tested when the Minister gave a response he was positive and

:37:11.:37:13.

urging Southern Rail to try and bring some of those facilities that

:37:14.:37:16.

they have promised but also we need to look at issues of taxable

:37:17.:37:21.

season-ticket that we were promised when this franchise was made. Many

:37:22.:37:27.

passengers were two or three days and the rest of the time work from

:37:28.:37:30.

home. We were promised taxable season-ticket and it cannot be right

:37:31.:37:34.

you have to purchase full time season-ticket when you only use it

:37:35.:37:40.

to a week. We urge Southern Rail to deliver on their promises and

:37:41.:37:41.

commitment in the franchise. I welcome the investment into the

:37:42.:37:49.

main line. There has been underinvested in decades and that

:37:50.:37:53.

has caused 50% of delays over the last 18 months. The money the

:37:54.:37:57.

government has put in is welcomed and is making a difference and that

:37:58.:38:00.

is a reason why performance has improved over the last few months.

:38:01.:38:06.

My final plea is in the rest of the Chris Gibb Report is to look at that

:38:07.:38:11.

line which would enable, if we had a second rail line from Sussex to

:38:12.:38:14.

London it would enable many of the that need to be done on rail line to

:38:15.:38:19.

be done and give a second route from Sussex to London. May I add my

:38:20.:38:26.

congratulations to others that have been expressed, it is a pleasure to

:38:27.:38:31.

see you in your position. I welcome the information gaps and some

:38:32.:38:37.

questions to answer and it is a shame that he left the chamber as

:38:38.:38:40.

soon as he could. On top of the six-month delay between the

:38:41.:38:45.

government receiving the report and the publication but we have had no

:38:46.:38:50.

serious government response. The ministers' 500 word statement early

:38:51.:38:55.

stretches to a side of a four and that is indicative to the whole

:38:56.:39:02.

attitude of the government, hands off, no leadership. After two years

:39:03.:39:08.

of the Brighton nightmare on the railways, my constituents expect

:39:09.:39:11.

better. They have regularly been in tears of anger and frustration. Jobs

:39:12.:39:15.

lost, relationships broken up, businesses taken a hit in Brighton

:39:16.:39:20.

and all the while passengers paying through the nose for what is

:39:21.:39:22.

Britain's worst performing rail service. I have listened to the

:39:23.:39:28.

Secretary of State today and may I point out to him that it will not

:39:29.:39:34.

help passengers the heap all of the blame onto the unions. The people

:39:35.:39:37.

who work on our railways every day, people who are trained to a safety

:39:38.:39:41.

critical standard and working on the front line are raising concerns

:39:42.:39:44.

about access and safety that have yet to be answered. The Secretary of

:39:45.:39:49.

State cannot keep up the pretence that this two year-long fiasco is

:39:50.:39:53.

nothing to do with him and the government. The buck stops with him

:39:54.:39:57.

whether he likes it or not. The chronic problems long predate the

:39:58.:40:00.

industrial action which started a year ago. We have had problems for

:40:01.:40:05.

well over two years and a glance at the graph on page 93 of the Gibb

:40:06.:40:10.

Report makes that clear. Southern was the worst performing company

:40:11.:40:13.

before any industrial action took place. So, as the Secretary of State

:40:14.:40:20.

well knows, Chris Gibb says all the elements of the system have been

:40:21.:40:23.

under strain. He said Southern Rail was attempting to run too many

:40:24.:40:27.

trains under poor and unreliable infrastructure. He make suggestions

:40:28.:40:29.

on issues like signalling, timetabling and services. He says

:40:30.:40:33.

that strategic leadership is missing. That is not news to the

:40:34.:40:38.

long-suffering passengers. When it comes to this dispute, the bottom

:40:39.:40:42.

line is there has been a chronic lack of leadership from this

:40:43.:40:46.

government and ministers. We're not going to get anywhere unless you get

:40:47.:40:50.

people talking together. Witchy agree that it is a case of a plague

:40:51.:40:56.

on all other houses and that southern, Network Rail, the unions

:40:57.:41:00.

and indeed ministers have failed passengers and does she agree that

:41:01.:41:04.

it might be worth investigating the possibility of using binding

:41:05.:41:08.

arbitration to get them in the same room and agree to a way forward? I

:41:09.:41:14.

thank him for his intervention and I agree we need a situation where

:41:15.:41:18.

everybody is in the room at the same time, not a strategy where gay

:41:19.:41:21.

unions are picked off separately, strategy where the government does

:41:22.:41:24.

not sit in the room either. Give makes it clear that his report that,

:41:25.:41:29.

doing nothing is not an option so negotiations must be entered into.

:41:30.:41:34.

The transport select committee called for all parties, including

:41:35.:41:38.

the government, to sit down together and resolve the dispute and they

:41:39.:41:42.

asked for that months ago. The involvement of ministers in the

:41:43.:41:44.

industrial dispute is often officially denied but one phrase

:41:45.:41:49.

does lay bare their central role, saying that the Secretary of State

:41:50.:41:53.

is already determining the strategic direction of this dispute. With the

:41:54.:41:57.

person in this edition will not get around the table without

:41:58.:42:00.

preconditions I don't see how we will make any progress. Can the

:42:01.:42:06.

Minister also tell us where this famous appendix nine is, which might

:42:07.:42:11.

shed light onto this issue, that appendix entitled recommendations

:42:12.:42:15.

regarding the franchise agreement is absent and conspicuous by that

:42:16.:42:19.

absence. My constituents think Southern have failed as do I. We

:42:20.:42:22.

want to see this section of the report because does that missing

:42:23.:42:26.

appendix nine actually tell us whether DTR is in breach of its

:42:27.:42:32.

contractual obligations? Is the entirety of that appendix the reason

:42:33.:42:35.

the report was kept hidden for half a year? Perhaps ministers want to

:42:36.:42:39.

avoid being pushed about answers as to whether GTR was in breach of

:42:40.:42:44.

contractual obligations? In October 2016 the government were told to get

:42:45.:42:48.

a grip on the monitoring and enforcement of the franchise and

:42:49.:42:54.

speed up its assessment of the agreement. Until we have the court

:42:55.:43:02.

case by ABC, the Association of British meat is, we have no action

:43:03.:43:08.

at all. ABC are also raising important questions about the

:43:09.:43:12.

concourse at Victoria -- the Association of British commuters. It

:43:13.:43:16.

says at major stations such as Victoria pedestrian flows and

:43:17.:43:20.

concourse capacity are all significantly influenced by

:43:21.:43:22.

commercial strategy and he points to the fact there are dangers when so

:43:23.:43:27.

many passengers are concentrated in such small spaces mass concourse. In

:43:28.:43:32.

that discussion of points to the Department for Transport as the

:43:33.:43:35.

place where we should be getting to the leadership. Are we? Is Victoria

:43:36.:43:39.

say from overcrowding and can the Minister give us a timetable and a

:43:40.:43:42.

funding commitment on the works that are needed's finally, Gibb says that

:43:43.:43:48.

bringing the franchise into public hands would create disruption and

:43:49.:43:52.

would mean that projects would have to be put on hold but what that lays

:43:53.:43:55.

bare is the fact is government have allowed the travelling public to the

:43:56.:44:01.

health ransom by a failing operator. They have dismantled directly

:44:02.:44:03.

operated railways say that if they were to have the strip GTR the

:44:04.:44:07.

franchise they would have limited options in terms of current project

:44:08.:44:11.

delivery. That is a serious error election of government duty. There

:44:12.:44:15.

has to be a guarantee from the state that if the private sector fails, we

:44:16.:44:18.

can and will take the franchise back into public control because without

:44:19.:44:23.

that there is no stick. The department needs to rectify that and

:44:24.:44:26.

must immediately start preparing a publicly owned organisation to take

:44:27.:44:30.

over on a clear and agreed date. If the industry know that in six

:44:31.:44:33.

months' time the GDR franchise will switch to eight directly operated

:44:34.:44:41.

railway disruption could be avoided and my constituents in Brighton

:44:42.:44:43.

would have a better chance getting a better deal on the railways. As it

:44:44.:44:54.

is the first time with you in the chair may I offer my sincere

:44:55.:44:56.

congratulations on your election recently. It is difficult to

:44:57.:45:04.

describe without being, risking being accused of hyperbole, the

:45:05.:45:12.

sheer misery that passengers and commuters in my crawly constituency

:45:13.:45:18.

but across the South have suffered in recent years because of the

:45:19.:45:23.

significant disruption of Southern Railway services. We have heard many

:45:24.:45:27.

honourable and Right Honourable members describe people losing their

:45:28.:45:33.

jobs, being in disciplinary hearings at their employment because they are

:45:34.:45:38.

consistently late for work. At the other end, I have come across many

:45:39.:45:44.

accounts, unacceptable accounts of my constituents, who don't get home

:45:45.:45:50.

to do the simple but very important things of reading a bedtime story to

:45:51.:45:53.

their children or sitting around the table together to have an evening

:45:54.:45:58.

meal. Lives are literally and livelihoods are being wrecked by the

:45:59.:46:04.

disruption that we have seen and indeed, many times, I have yet to

:46:05.:46:11.

cross to in this way Deputy Madam Speaker but I have been late in this

:46:12.:46:18.

chamber myself a cause of -- because of southern delaying the service I

:46:19.:46:24.

use on a regular basis to get to Westminster. Why have we had this

:46:25.:46:29.

situation? I think it is four fold. Percival, we have a franchise

:46:30.:46:35.

structure which has been bizarrely established by the Department for

:46:36.:46:39.

Transport and I think the government really needs to learn some serious

:46:40.:46:46.

lessons in the way that train franchises are structured. Secondly,

:46:47.:46:50.

we have, as again many members have said, a network that is by far the

:46:51.:46:58.

busiest in the country and is at capacity or overcapacity on too many

:46:59.:47:05.

occasions and on that point I particularly welcome the ?300

:47:06.:47:07.

million of investment for Network Rail that the government are putting

:47:08.:47:12.

in to ensure those engineering problems are addressed. Then, we

:47:13.:47:21.

have Southern and the parent company GDR, a company that have not

:47:22.:47:25.

performed very well indeed and without repeating earlier stories,

:47:26.:47:28.

some of the ways they have treated their customers is quite appalling.

:47:29.:47:37.

Lastly, as highlighted in the Gibb Report and I congratulate the

:47:38.:47:39.

government for initiating that review last year, we have a militant

:47:40.:47:46.

unions who are determined to exploit the misery of passengers and the

:47:47.:47:49.

situation for frankly their own political ends. There is blame all

:47:50.:47:57.

around on this issue and the people who are suffering, literally

:47:58.:48:02.

standing in the middle of this argument, standing on cold platforms

:48:03.:48:07.

often, are the travelling public of my constituency and elsewhere in the

:48:08.:48:14.

country and from a central position my honourable friend from East

:48:15.:48:17.

Worthing and Shoreham said people standing on trains as well and that

:48:18.:48:20.

is certainly my daily experience as well. This situation does need to be

:48:21.:48:28.

addressed. There have been improvements. I welcome additional

:48:29.:48:32.

investments, Miller with pounds -- millions of pounds in Gatwick

:48:33.:48:39.

investment in my constituency, that is important but the image of Great

:48:40.:48:42.

Britain as people arrived at London Gatwick Airport and try to get to

:48:43.:48:48.

our capital... Thank you for giving way at this time. I wonder if he

:48:49.:48:54.

could comment on the impact on Gatwick. My constituents travelling

:48:55.:48:58.

from Southampton across the Brighton, commuting that way to

:48:59.:49:01.

avoid the 27, or indeed people taking rights to Gatwick, missing

:49:02.:49:06.

them and being left on the side of the platform. Well, she is

:49:07.:49:16.

absolutely right in that the impact on not only the economy but people's

:49:17.:49:21.

lives, missing flights to go on holiday or to do business in the

:49:22.:49:24.

capital or around the south-east has had a massive impact and that is an

:49:25.:49:32.

aspect that perhaps is not always highlighted and I'm grateful for the

:49:33.:49:34.

chance to do that here in the House today. The situation does need to be

:49:35.:49:46.

resolved. I call on the unions to stop their industrial action. There

:49:47.:49:53.

is a generous offer on the table, over ?60,000 for a 35 hour week for

:49:54.:49:57.

those drivers. When it comes to drive only operated doors, as we

:49:58.:50:02.

have heard again earlier on in this debate, they have a proven track

:50:03.:50:08.

record of over three decades on London Underground, many other rail

:50:09.:50:11.

systems around the world and we have also heard that most of those guards

:50:12.:50:18.

on the train will simply be able to be redeployed to more customer

:50:19.:50:24.

focused efforts, which I think is very important, particularly helping

:50:25.:50:27.

disabled passengers on the network as well, so rather than just

:50:28.:50:32.

standing at a door and opening and closing it, engaging better with

:50:33.:50:37.

customers and supporting them. So, I urge the unions to get back to work

:50:38.:50:46.

on a full basis and support my constituents, commuters. I urge the

:50:47.:50:52.

government to continue its investment in our railway and

:50:53.:50:56.

particularly the London to Brighton mainline and I urge Southern and GTR

:50:57.:51:02.

as the operator to be much more customer friendly in the way that

:51:03.:51:07.

they operate, so finally this misery can end. It's a pleasure to be

:51:08.:51:16.

called in front of you for the first time. The reality is that this

:51:17.:51:23.

franchise has been a bad franchise for a significant amount of time. It

:51:24.:51:30.

has not worked and the finger-pointing at the unions, I

:51:31.:51:39.

find slightly hypocritical when Pete Wilkinson of the Department for

:51:40.:51:46.

Transport himself only last year, a senior official said over the next

:51:47.:51:51.

three years we're going to have to have a punch-up. We will see

:51:52.:51:56.

industrial action and I want your support. He says, "We have got to

:51:57.:52:03.

break them. They have borrowed money on their cars, their credit cards

:52:04.:52:08.

and they can't afford to go on strike stop" he goes on. If that is

:52:09.:52:15.

not a political motivation to aggravate this strike, I do not know

:52:16.:52:22.

what is. It is... Let me finish my point. It is a clear and ratcheting

:52:23.:52:29.

up of the dispute and of course there is always blame on all sides

:52:30.:52:36.

but the government and the Department for Transport is in a

:52:37.:52:37.

position of responsibility. We all want a resolution because we

:52:38.:52:49.

want customers to get on their journeys. I will read out a quote

:52:50.:52:56.

from Mr, the RMT union assistant General Secretary, he said on LBC, I

:52:57.:53:01.

think all the Tories are an absolute disgrace, they should be taken out

:53:02.:53:05.

and shot to be quite frank, this is the new gentler kind politics your

:53:06.:53:08.

side has agrees with and believes will bring a lace resolution to this

:53:09.:53:15.

programme like it does not help... When the Government has not been

:53:16.:53:19.

getting the unions around the table in the same room without

:53:20.:53:25.

preconditions. That is how we de-escalating is. People in

:53:26.:53:28.

positions of responsibility like the Minister need to come forward and

:53:29.:53:32.

de-escalated and not just finger point, quote from radios, but

:53:33.:53:37.

actually make sure that we get people in responsibility ticking

:53:38.:53:43.

their leadership that they need to do. But the reality is this is not a

:53:44.:53:50.

dispute also about money. We have heard a lot from the other side

:53:51.:53:54.

about trying to shove cash into the mouths of drivers. This dispute is

:53:55.:54:02.

about safety and accessibility. The unions have put a clear proposal on

:54:03.:54:06.

the table impact where they have offered to make sure that they will

:54:07.:54:14.

come to a deal that would ensure disabled and vulnerable people can

:54:15.:54:16.

turn up to the train station without having to give notice, was there to

:54:17.:54:21.

make sure there would be safety conditions on the trains, and they

:54:22.:54:27.

would withdraw their action. That offer has been disregarded by GTR

:54:28.:54:32.

and disregarded by their puppet masters in the Government. Why I

:54:33.:54:38.

call them the puppet Masters is because this contract is a rigged

:54:39.:54:43.

contract. It is a contract that allows GTR to continue to get the

:54:44.:54:49.

cash incentive to run a service that they failed to run and they do not

:54:50.:54:55.

lose a penny of money when there are not ticket sales, and they do not

:54:56.:55:05.

have to bear the risk. That is the problem. This contract that was

:55:06.:55:09.

created and clearly what needs to happen is this government needs to

:55:10.:55:15.

bring the contract in house. And while the Gibb Report says that this

:55:16.:55:19.

would be disruptive I am afraid the reason it would be disruptive is

:55:20.:55:23.

just as my honourable member has said, that the Government wound down

:55:24.:55:30.

the directly operated operator and have actually left themselves with

:55:31.:55:40.

their pants down. They are unable to run a service and unable to run the

:55:41.:55:46.

contractors to account. Yes, go on. He spent most of his speech panning

:55:47.:55:52.

the rule of the Government and Department for Transport and no said

:55:53.:55:55.

he wants a franchised rod in-house to be run by that same government

:55:56.:56:00.

that he has been panning. I have no problem with the franchise being

:56:01.:56:03.

rude but has to have a care that whoever takes it over can do a

:56:04.:56:07.

better job above it and at the moment that is not clear, so could

:56:08.:56:11.

be a case of the frying pan into the fire. He is quite right of course

:56:12.:56:19.

that I wouldn't want the Minister to directly be running the railways. I

:56:20.:56:23.

think the Minister is barely able to directly from his department it

:56:24.:56:28.

seems at the moment and get people around table to negotiate which is

:56:29.:56:31.

one of the key responsibilities in name a few of the Minister, but the

:56:32.:56:39.

directly operated railways, clearly in the north-east franchise and in

:56:40.:56:43.

the connector south-eastern franchise which was taken off

:56:44.:56:49.

Boswell, operated well improved, service improved and their blood

:56:50.:56:55.

money back to the Exchequer. -- brought money back to the Exchequer.

:56:56.:57:01.

On both sides of this House we can point fingers to each other and I of

:57:02.:57:05.

course will be pointing fingers to the Government, but what you must do

:57:06.:57:11.

is try and resolve this without preconditions. And doing that means

:57:12.:57:19.

we need to get the unions around the table. We need to not say that they

:57:20.:57:23.

are only welcome round the table and they have called off their strike.

:57:24.:57:28.

We have not got them, you have not got them around the table and we

:57:29.:57:32.

need to make sure that is done. If I was a headteacher in a school and

:57:33.:57:37.

had to send my children home because I couldn't organise the supply

:57:38.:57:42.

cover, I would be blamed the headteacher, not the teachers were

:57:43.:57:46.

supply teacher that didn't turn up, the blame needs to be on the

:57:47.:57:51.

management, the blame needs to be on the Government and they need to step

:57:52.:57:55.

up to this because our constituents are suffering ever single day

:57:56.:58:02.

because of their failings. Can I add my congratulations to you for taking

:58:03.:58:07.

your place, Madam Deputy Speaker. When I was first elected two years

:58:08.:58:13.

ago I was campaigning on a number of extra train services that I wanted

:58:14.:58:17.

to bring to something cool including extending the London Underground but

:58:18.:58:21.

I was ready to buy many passengers, mainly Tenzing passengers, that they

:58:22.:58:24.

actually just wanted the trains that were there to run on time. Then we

:58:25.:58:28.

fast forward a little while and now Tenzing complained -- Thames Link,

:58:29.:58:36.

it has been overtaken clearly by Southern. I knew I would hate this,

:58:37.:58:41.

they return to commuting which I hadn't done for a little while. I

:58:42.:58:46.

have been tweeting in debates that I have heard, I only missed me meaty

:58:47.:58:51.

manager event at Victoria station because I can get there by one of

:58:52.:58:56.

their claims. -- meet the manager event. It is predominantly, problems

:58:57.:59:06.

in terms of infrastructure, poor linkages to and the sudden services

:59:07.:59:10.

come through and the link itself first, a lot of problems start. That

:59:11.:59:15.

is where we need investment. All the chains that goes through southern at

:59:16.:59:18.

the moment would ever come to operated. All of the trains at the

:59:19.:59:23.

moment were reasonably well working until they get to that point. There

:59:24.:59:28.

are four things I say in my short time that I have got to speak about

:59:29.:59:33.

how we need to sort this out. No one component is situation in this

:59:34.:59:38.

dispute has come out of it well. The department has to my mind. A very

:59:39.:59:46.

unwieldy agreement, picking up 23% of the entire railway network and

:59:47.:59:50.

infrastructure and that is something I would like to see addressed when

:59:51.:59:54.

the franchise is up for renewal. I would like to see the Mayor of

:59:55.:59:58.

London have a greater say in the management of the suburban lines.

:59:59.:00:02.

That is not kept lines, or the Sussex lines... I give way. And

:00:03.:00:08.

Gretel. I think clarifying that he doesn't include in that Sussex and

:00:09.:00:14.

Surrey lines and Kent does well because of course, we don't get a

:00:15.:00:19.

chance to vote for the Mayor of London. I agree with that because

:00:20.:00:26.

the Mayor of London did himself no favours by overstepping the mark. We

:00:27.:00:30.

need investment in lines as well. But the congestion on those lines

:00:31.:00:35.

and some of the poor quality rail lines there we took to, the

:00:36.:00:43.

honourable lady for Mitcham and Morden, talked about Mitcham

:00:44.:00:45.

Eastfields and the time it takes to get there. Sometimes trains ghosts

:00:46.:00:52.

so slowly, I might as well have been on a milk float. I might have got a

:00:53.:00:59.

seat then so that might be a bonus. Some have been very abrasive

:01:00.:01:02.

inter-approach to union matters especially at the beginning. We

:01:03.:01:05.

clearly have too few character tours and so we we get breakdowns and

:01:06.:01:11.

staff shortages but we come back to the unions and that is not because

:01:12.:01:15.

of any other reason, they are the pressing issue. Chris Gibb said the

:01:16.:01:20.

fact that no one is made redundant or losing pay against their wishes

:01:21.:01:23.

that there will be more duty are trains operating with two people on

:01:24.:01:27.

board and the Driver Only Operation is only already extensive in GDR,

:01:28.:01:32.

the UK and Europe. It is so make this dispute would have especially

:01:33.:01:37.

for passengers. So let's work backwards. Let's get the unions and

:01:38.:01:40.

the table and sort out this dispute and then we can get back to making a

:01:41.:01:47.

terrible situation and service to being just an incredibly poor one

:01:48.:01:50.

and then we can address that and then get to the next age and get it

:01:51.:01:54.

to be a good service. As we have heard from others with the actuality

:01:55.:01:57.

figures starting, but the end of dispute as divers are starting to

:01:58.:02:02.

come on stream and new power characters are set and costume is.

:02:03.:02:06.

And then of the resident, three and many pounds investment and when the

:02:07.:02:13.

franchise comes up for renewal lips look at as a whole and pick it up so

:02:14.:02:23.

it is more manageable. The thank you for chairing today's debate. Can I

:02:24.:02:28.

also put on record my proud relationship with working people

:02:29.:02:31.

through the trade unions and declare my interest? Today's debate started

:02:32.:02:36.

abysmally will stop when the Transport Secretary Bill to mention

:02:37.:02:39.

safety on access for disabled people bonds. His registers against working

:02:40.:02:46.

people came to the fore, clearly not on the party for working people.

:02:47.:02:51.

That's tracker prejudice. My honourable friend thankfully brought

:02:52.:02:55.

us back to the Gibb Report and we have had 19 contributions today. I

:02:56.:02:58.

want to thank my honourable friend for not become South -- Nottingham

:02:59.:03:06.

South piloting the consequences of level crossings. The honourable

:03:07.:03:11.

friend religions are talking about the bullying drivers come to

:03:12.:03:18.

experience on their days off. The member for folk who called for

:03:19.:03:21.

humility and a focus on breadth of issues within the Gibb Report and

:03:22.:03:25.

identified the Government failure of leadership over these matters. And

:03:26.:03:30.

my honourable friend from Mitcham and Morden again talked about the

:03:31.:03:35.

real chaos and stress that this is not too to industrial action and

:03:36.:03:43.

finally my honourable friend the member for Brighton and Compton had

:03:44.:03:46.

focused on the issue around disability access. The perfect storm

:03:47.:03:54.

was set and today we have heard the consequences of her constituents,

:03:55.:03:59.

industry and stuff. Ageing and failing infrastructure have lacked

:04:00.:04:01.

the resources and critical management to address vital

:04:02.:04:07.

maintenance. Heavy demand and overcapacity is manifest in

:04:08.:04:11.

overcrowding, new working practices, new timetables, new commencement of

:04:12.:04:15.

roots, new trains technological advances all have been recommended

:04:16.:04:21.

it without strategic coordination to date. Above all failed and

:04:22.:04:24.

fragmented franchisors are collaboration and strategic

:04:25.:04:28.

oversight were the last considerations and the very worst

:04:29.:04:31.

outcomes for profit driven, privatisation process was apparent

:04:32.:04:35.

putting profit before passengers resulting in passengers paying

:04:36.:04:40.

heavily. Financially for their tickets, went missing the worst

:04:41.:04:43.

effects through overcrowding and does Mr Gibb refers to at every

:04:44.:04:49.

turn, having to deal with the complete unpredictability of the

:04:50.:04:51.

service, it has been utterly chaotic. The buck stops with the

:04:52.:04:56.

Secretary of State for Transport and his government. Who even the courts

:04:57.:05:05.

have now told to exercise his finding a resolution. This has been

:05:06.:05:11.

matched against a safety critical industry where staff are rightly

:05:12.:05:14.

concerned that they will find themselves before an inquest

:05:15.:05:23.

following an incident involving a passenger from whatever reason the

:05:24.:05:26.

technology missing, but a second human I would see. All in a high

:05:27.:05:32.

risk setting where there is potential for an accident,

:05:33.:05:36.

landslide, terrorism, to the possibility of a driver or passenger

:05:37.:05:38.

falling ill, anti-social behaviour or another incident occurring. For

:05:39.:05:43.

those who have disabilities are pushed to the back of the queue

:05:44.:05:49.

ensuring that their needs are met throughout their journey. We have

:05:50.:05:52.

heard that only 2% of trains, we don't have a second chakra second

:05:53.:05:57.

city critically trains that, we wonder why this government can't

:05:58.:06:03.

resolve this dispute and that the dignity of a disabled person who

:06:04.:06:07.

could be left on a platform first. All in charge industrial environment

:06:08.:06:09.

were the agents of the Government and the Government itself declared

:06:10.:06:14.

that rather than solving this dispute, which is frankly easy to

:06:15.:06:19.

do, they are deliberately trying to feel it due to their ideological

:06:20.:06:26.

aversion to trade unions wanting to break them, as Mr Wilkinson the

:06:27.:06:32.

Department for Transport director said as opposed to the sting and

:06:33.:06:35.

addressing the real concerns raised and are apparent for all others to

:06:36.:06:42.

see. The stakes are high. And we have also heard from the GDR's Gibb

:06:43.:06:51.

Report alone convicted recognises this serious attempt to analyse the

:06:52.:06:59.

multi-problems with the network focused on ten different areas of

:07:00.:07:03.

failure and then bring these together, cutting through the layers

:07:04.:07:07.

of self-interest and no part of the network comes out particularly well.

:07:08.:07:11.

Give's recommendations have sought to put passengers at the centre and

:07:12.:07:17.

right magically allied steps and need to build 1000 rail service was

:07:18.:07:23.

collaborate across operators, infrastructures, bodies, regulator

:07:24.:07:27.

and contractor services like maintenance companies. A reformed

:07:28.:07:31.

company which not only challenges behaviour set the template for the

:07:32.:07:37.

industry to refocus. The immense task set requires all parties to

:07:38.:07:42.

take a step back and listen to what the Gibb Report is actually saying

:07:43.:07:45.

between the text. This is an immense challenge. That has to be

:07:46.:07:50.

transition. Problem solving and working together is the only way

:07:51.:07:54.

through this. And a new approach must be adopted by all.

:07:55.:07:59.

There has got to be space for everyone to raise their concerns and

:08:00.:08:06.

instead of being met by a wall of denial that a bit more flexibility

:08:07.:08:12.

would provide a win for everyone. When people talk about staff

:08:13.:08:16.

shortages, that must be addressed and when people talk about safety

:08:17.:08:20.

challenges, that must be heard. I want to return to the fact that we

:08:21.:08:25.

live in critical times and throw this challenge down to government.

:08:26.:08:30.

Technology is advancing at a pace and this is something we can be

:08:31.:08:36.

immensely proud of. Over the next decade engineering and

:08:37.:08:38.

digitalisation across the rail industry will take us to new places

:08:39.:08:43.

that even today are unimaginable. But, the rail industry is ultimately

:08:44.:08:52.

about people and as we progress from generation to generation, the

:08:53.:08:56.

reassurances we seat do not change. In a safety critical environment

:08:57.:09:02.

passengers want safety guaranteed. Instances do occur and I will never

:09:03.:09:07.

forget working in intensive care as the Potters bar tragedy happened and

:09:08.:09:11.

the carnage that I faced as a clinician trying to save lives and

:09:12.:09:15.

put bodies back together. Life is too important. We lose 40 people on

:09:16.:09:21.

the Southern Rail network each with three suicide. Traumatic for our

:09:22.:09:26.

drivers and tragic for those involved. Passengers or even drivers

:09:27.:09:32.

take ill, threatening anti-social behaviour still occurs, women can

:09:33.:09:37.

still feel unsafe travelling alone at night. As the member for

:09:38.:09:45.

Eastbourne reminded us. I do note, there is no women's boys in the

:09:46.:09:49.

Secretary of State's team and maybe it would have been helped all to

:09:50.:09:55.

understand those safety critical issues -- there is no women's boys.

:09:56.:10:01.

Terrorism is now an issue that hovers in all of our mind.

:10:02.:10:05.

Overcrowded Haitian and trains create risk. -- overcrowded stations

:10:06.:10:17.

and trains create risks. So, who will be a passenger champion on each

:10:18.:10:24.

train? Who will keep them safe? Who will have the vital training in

:10:25.:10:30.

order to carry out those vital tasks? Who will provide the second

:10:31.:10:36.

died to support that safe departure and keep the public safe? Those

:10:37.:10:43.

other questions the workers are asking and government are refusing

:10:44.:10:47.

to hear and they are the issues that must be addressed for the sake of

:10:48.:10:51.

the public, too. The government would never dream of taking away

:10:52.:10:56.

cabin crew on a short flight and yet on journeys which may take a lot

:10:57.:11:00.

longer removing the one person who keeps us safe can answer our

:11:01.:11:06.

questions and concerns. It can help meet our needs. It is doing the

:11:07.:11:13.

reverse of what give is calling for. A passenger centred service. As my

:11:14.:11:21.

honourable friend said, none of us want to stand at this dispatch box

:11:22.:11:28.

and lament is only. The site that lessons must be learned. That is why

:11:29.:11:37.

from these benches, Labour would build United, integrators, save,

:11:38.:11:41.

accessible and functioning service for the passengers and we would also

:11:42.:11:46.

champion the rights of passengers, too. Thank you, a pleasure to serve

:11:47.:11:57.

under your chairmanship for the first time in your new role and I

:11:58.:12:01.

also welcome the member for York Central to her place as a new

:12:02.:12:06.

minister. Having had to face a transport select committee on day

:12:07.:12:10.

two of this job and taking up this complex issue and she acquitted

:12:11.:12:15.

herself well in her performance at the dispatch box. Can I commend

:12:16.:12:22.

everyone for participating, a help full debate today, particularly

:12:23.:12:28.

those on the route who have worked so hard, whatever party they

:12:29.:12:34.

represent, to support their constituents and deal with the

:12:35.:12:37.

impact and disruption over the past months. We have two continued to

:12:38.:12:42.

apologise for those passengers who have been affected by the dispute

:12:43.:12:46.

and the disruption. We have heard eloquently today from so many

:12:47.:12:50.

members about lives that have been disrupted, jobs that have not been

:12:51.:12:54.

successful, people not being able to get treatment they need, so many

:12:55.:12:59.

examples and I think the member for Lewis spoke about the impact on her

:13:00.:13:05.

constituency but it is worth reflecting, I think, on why we ask

:13:06.:13:09.

for this report in the first place. The member for Hove seemed to

:13:10.:13:13.

suggest I ought to have sufficient knowledge myself to know precisely

:13:14.:13:16.

what was wrong immediately. I actually brought Mr give in, who we

:13:17.:13:23.

will all agree is a powerful performer when he met the all-party

:13:24.:13:27.

group precisely because in the early days in the role I wanted to

:13:28.:13:29.

understand what the real issues were on this network. We have an epidemic

:13:30.:13:35.

of finger-pointing and we wanted someone with a lifetime of

:13:36.:13:38.

experience on the railway, everybody had confidence in on all sides that

:13:39.:13:43.

he would analyse and that is what he has done. I was surprised that some

:13:44.:13:51.

members opposite, I don't think he could have written a proper report

:13:52.:13:55.

without meeting with GTR and it is worth restating his central finding.

:13:56.:14:01.

Were it not for the actions of the unions, passengers would have

:14:02.:14:05.

experienced a much better service. Ultimately, the quickest path to

:14:06.:14:11.

improvement on Southern is for the unions to refrain from their

:14:12.:14:16.

intransigence. As all members have rightly pointed out on all sides,

:14:17.:14:20.

there are many factors which lie behind the poor performance on

:14:21.:14:27.

Southern including lessons for the departments. But one thing is clear.

:14:28.:14:32.

When the service is not subject to industrial action, performance

:14:33.:14:36.

improves because of the actions of Mr give has recommended. I will

:14:37.:14:45.

happily give way. He is right that when industrial action is not

:14:46.:14:49.

running in the last six months, service does improve but in the

:14:50.:14:54.

previous two years, it was falling without any industrial action. The

:14:55.:14:59.

central finding of the Gibb Report is we need another ?1 billion in the

:15:00.:15:03.

next period after this funding agreement. Will his government

:15:04.:15:06.

provide that? I will come onto that in a moment. I thought he spoke

:15:07.:15:13.

sensibly, as did the member for Newton South and brought thoughtful

:15:14.:15:16.

contributions to the debate. I will answer all the points raised, I will

:15:17.:15:21.

do my best but I doubt I will succeed in the eight minutes

:15:22.:15:29.

available but I will write to you. I didn't speak because I missed most

:15:30.:15:33.

of the debate but one thing not covered, I would liken to mention

:15:34.:15:36.

because it was a manifesto commitment on the side of the

:15:37.:15:40.

customers to make sure we have a railway ombudsman who can make sure

:15:41.:15:44.

that the operators get properly penalised when they provide a

:15:45.:15:47.

rubbish service and the customers don't have to go through all hoops.

:15:48.:15:58.

It was indeed a manifesto commitment, my personal crusade. I

:15:59.:16:01.

was determined that we brought this in partly because of what I have

:16:02.:16:09.

seen myself with issues on Southern. I will have further meetings in due

:16:10.:16:13.

course but I believe we are on track and deliver it as soon as possible

:16:14.:16:16.

and I'm sure it will be welcomed across the House as a whole. We have

:16:17.:16:23.

talked already about some of the wider pressures currently on the

:16:24.:16:26.

network. There are ?300 million investment we announced back in

:16:27.:16:31.

January was a specific response to give recommendations and the member

:16:32.:16:39.

for the FNP raised questions on the speed with which it would be spent.

:16:40.:16:42.

We were very clear from day one that this would be spent up to the

:16:43.:16:50.

December 20 18th -- member for the FNP. -- December 20 18. That is not

:16:51.:17:02.

a matter of replacing bits of old kit but will result in 15% fewer

:17:03.:17:08.

delayed minutes, which is what we are seeking to achieve. Other

:17:09.:17:14.

examples, the member for Croydon South showed interest in the

:17:15.:17:21.

ballast, this is about replacing ballasts on the track. This is about

:17:22.:17:27.

providing a smooth journey and reducing the number of speed

:17:28.:17:34.

restrictions that make it harder to adhere to the timetable. There have

:17:35.:17:41.

also been ?70 million on vegetation clearance. You might think that is a

:17:42.:17:44.

matter of cosmetics but actually two of the most recent incidents in the

:17:45.:17:48.

last control period that cause delays word due to trespassers. That

:17:49.:17:59.

matters, trespassed causes delay on the railways. We are well aware of

:18:00.:18:08.

the project, looking at it closely to make sure we have the business

:18:09.:18:17.

case. Others mentioned some of the station issues to come about as well

:18:18.:18:23.

and I think one of the particular points about Victoria was that we

:18:24.:18:29.

needed single station leadership, much as we are now developing at

:18:30.:18:32.

London Bridge. The problem with stations is where you have train

:18:33.:18:35.

operating companies and Network Rail all trying to make different

:18:36.:18:39.

decisions at the same time. You need single station leadership at our

:18:40.:18:49.

major terminals. We also recognise there were inadequate numbers of

:18:50.:18:52.

drivers at the start of the franchise. We used to understand why

:18:53.:18:56.

that was. Some was down to unexpected departures but I wanted

:18:57.:19:01.

to be clear as to what procedures the department had in place to

:19:02.:19:06.

ensure there were adequate driver numbers in any franchise handover. I

:19:07.:19:11.

am delighted by the fact that we now have over 322 drivers in training

:19:12.:19:17.

across the GTR network but it takes 18 months to train a driver

:19:18.:19:22.

adequately to operate safely on the network so I look forward to those

:19:23.:19:28.

drivers being part of the network. This will reduce reliance on

:19:29.:19:31.

overtime and reduce the impact of any bands currently in place. As we

:19:32.:19:37.

have been hearing today, performance has been significantly better when

:19:38.:19:40.

we have not been placed in the selection. It was as low as 62% back

:19:41.:19:48.

in December. That is a positive thing but it is only doubted because

:19:49.:19:53.

they many of the recommendations have already been put in place. Many

:19:54.:19:59.

people referred to the benefits of smart ticketing. I constantly ask

:20:00.:20:05.

GTR to do more. I look forward to that benefiting constituents soon.

:20:06.:20:16.

Mention has been made on the east Midlands franchise, we need to make

:20:17.:20:20.

sure that journeys will be significantly shorter because of the

:20:21.:20:27.

new Thames Link timetable. That is why Mr Gibbs is continuing in the

:20:28.:20:32.

role for the Department in making sure that all the different actors

:20:33.:20:37.

in that complex interaction will deliver a significant enhancement to

:20:38.:20:41.

the railway that works also. I deliver to sharing more information

:20:42.:20:45.

with her. She also mentioned level crossings. I take that seriously. We

:20:46.:20:51.

need to make sure that what is proposed does what it seeks to

:20:52.:20:54.

achieve. We need to make sure issues of safety at our LO crossings under

:20:55.:21:00.

Tamil wisely -- at our level crossings. -- are considered more

:21:01.:21:10.

wisely. We do use expert knowledge, bring it to the table, make sure

:21:11.:21:16.

Network Rail, publicly owned, many opposite forget that, it is publicly

:21:17.:21:19.

owned, that both they and train operators companies point in the

:21:20.:21:23.

same direction and incentives are lined. We will continue to seek to

:21:24.:21:34.

do all we can to bring these depute -- to an end. The unions and GTR met

:21:35.:21:44.

for 32 days. They reached an agreement on two occasions. That

:21:45.:21:47.

proves it can be done without ministers having to sit in the room.

:21:48.:21:51.

They are actually grown-ups and they can reach agreement. I think it can

:21:52.:22:01.

be done. A further point I would make... In conclusion, a lot has

:22:02.:22:07.

gone on but there will be a lot more to do. Far more to make sure that

:22:08.:22:12.

all passengers get that timely, punctual and reliable service they

:22:13.:22:16.

deserve on this railway and my department will work hard to make

:22:17.:22:21.

sure that is the case. Thank you for your participation today. The

:22:22.:22:33.

question is, as many as are of that opinion say aye. On the contrary

:22:34.:22:42.

noe. The ayes habit. We now come to the estimates notion. Minister to

:22:43.:22:50.

move formally. The question is, as many as are that opinion say aye. On

:22:51.:22:58.

the contrary, noe. I think the ayes habit. Bill ordered to be brought in

:22:59.:23:08.

upon the motion in the name of smell stride...

:23:09.:23:30.

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