Browse content similar to 19/07/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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and hauled herself until that point we look forward to what she wishes | :00:00. | :00:00. | |
to unburden herself. Urgent question. | :00:07. | :00:12. | |
To ask the Secretary of State for justice if he will make a statement | :00:13. | :00:15. | |
on safety in prisons and the findings of Her Majesty's Chief | :00:16. | :00:25. | |
Inspector 's annual report? Thank you. Independent scrutiny is | :00:26. | :00:29. | |
an essential part of our prison service and I would like to thank | :00:30. | :00:33. | |
the Chief inspector and his team for their work in delivering this | :00:34. | :00:38. | |
including through his annual report. The report raises some important | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
issues in relation to safety and security, we have been clear a calm | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
and ordered environment must be created to ensure effective | :00:49. | :00:52. | |
rehabilitation and achieving this is our priority. The current levels of | :00:53. | :00:58. | |
violence and self harm in the adult estate are unacceptable. Issues in | :00:59. | :01:02. | |
our prisons have deep roots, they will not be a overnight and we are | :01:03. | :01:07. | |
planning immediate action to stabilise them with significant | :01:08. | :01:13. | |
investment. Examples include investing 100 million a year to | :01:14. | :01:16. | |
bring in another 2500 prison officers by the end of next year, | :01:17. | :01:23. | |
making significant process was an increase of 515 by the end of March | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
compared to previous quarter. On youth Justice, the annual report | :01:29. | :01:32. | |
highlights issues regarding use estate and I would reassure the | :01:33. | :01:37. | |
member safety and welfare of every young person in custody is of | :01:38. | :01:40. | |
paramount importance to me and we are clear up more must be done to | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
achieve this. In response to the review of youth justice system last | :01:46. | :01:49. | |
December the Government acknowledged the serious issues it faces and that | :01:50. | :01:54. | |
is why we are reforming the system. Let me give you three examples. | :01:55. | :02:01. | |
Firstly we have created a new youth custody servers with an executive | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
director for the first time, secondly, the development of a new | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
youth justice specialist offers a role ensures more staff can | :02:11. | :02:13. | |
specifically be trained to work with young people to boost the number on | :02:14. | :02:18. | |
operational front line in institutions by 20% and recruiting | :02:19. | :02:21. | |
workers specifically trained to work within the youth sector. Thirdly, | :02:22. | :02:26. | |
the introduction of a more individualised approach for young | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
people focus on education and health, enhancing the workforce, | :02:31. | :02:33. | |
improving governance and developing the security state. Finally, the | :02:34. | :02:39. | |
report expresses disappointment about the implementation rate of the | :02:40. | :02:43. | |
recommendations and are recognised as concerned and to address this we | :02:44. | :02:48. | |
have created a new unit was on Her Majesty's proposed and -- prison and | :02:49. | :02:52. | |
probation service to make sure recommendations are taken forward in | :02:53. | :02:57. | |
a timely manner and track how Leanne fomented by prisons. The issues with | :02:58. | :03:00. | |
that our prisons will not be resolved overnight but we are | :03:01. | :03:03. | |
determined to make progress as quickly as possible and I hope | :03:04. | :03:08. | |
members on both sides of the house will support our plans for reform. | :03:09. | :03:16. | |
Thank you. Last year the chief inspector reported to many of our | :03:17. | :03:21. | |
prisons have become unacceptably violent and dangerous. This year he | :03:22. | :03:26. | |
reports the situation has not improved and has got worse. Staff | :03:27. | :03:32. | |
assaults up by 30% in the 12 month to December 20 16. The 20 in local | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
prisons and institutes inspected last year, 21 were judged to be | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
people are not sufficiently goods in safety. Only two weeks ago I raised | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
the issues at Feltham Young offenders Institute but this report | :03:49. | :03:52. | |
is because even greater concern. The increase in violence is a crisis of | :03:53. | :03:56. | |
the Government's own making, the warning signs have been there, MPs | :03:57. | :04:01. | |
have warned them, by staff in our prisons and by charities. Now they | :04:02. | :04:07. | |
have been by this damning report. The budget for prisons have been cut | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
by more than one fifth over the last five years, which is proved to be a | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
false economy. Prison staff got by one quarter and those remaining are | :04:17. | :04:21. | |
put at risk now. The human impact of austerity is laid bare at the door | :04:22. | :04:25. | |
of our prison system. Effective prisons should be about | :04:26. | :04:29. | |
rehabilitation so people come out less likely to offend but with | :04:30. | :04:34. | |
drugs, building contributing to violence that has been found to be | :04:35. | :04:38. | |
compounded by staffing levels described as simply too low to keep | :04:39. | :04:44. | |
order and of a decent regime. In the last parliament the Government | :04:45. | :04:47. | |
introduced a bill to address safety concerns, the bill was lost at the | :04:48. | :04:52. | |
solution. Despite recognition of prison safety being in the Tory | :04:53. | :04:57. | |
manifesto no present legislation was announced in the 2017 Queen's speech | :04:58. | :05:01. | |
so can the Minister confirm that there is any intention to bring back | :05:02. | :05:05. | |
legislation and can he update the house as to why one third of the | :05:06. | :05:09. | |
prisons have also been found to not have implemented the prisons and | :05:10. | :05:13. | |
probation recommendations to reduce the risk of self-inflicted death? | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
What action is being taken to address Government's concerns and | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
the extensive use of force and segregation and can the Minister | :05:24. | :05:25. | |
update the house on the implementation of recruitment and | :05:26. | :05:29. | |
action to keep experienced staff and retain new staff. Our prison service | :05:30. | :05:34. | |
is no longer fit for purpose and the Government must take urgent action. | :05:35. | :05:44. | |
We fully recognise the difficulties in the prison system and have been | :05:45. | :05:48. | |
honest about that. The staffing issue has been indicated as a | :05:49. | :05:51. | |
problem and has been addressed in the last year and we have appointed | :05:52. | :05:58. | |
more than 500 to March and on course to fulfil our target of 2500 extra | :05:59. | :06:04. | |
officers by the end of next year. I would argue the unforeseen | :06:05. | :06:11. | |
exacerbation in prisons has been spice. And drug use also. It was not | :06:12. | :06:17. | |
anticipated by any previous Government and this is undeniably | :06:18. | :06:21. | |
causing difficulties both in terms of behaviour of the prisoners and | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
indeed the corruption of the prisoners and some staff with | :06:26. | :06:29. | |
regards to the trade in these substances. I would finally see the | :06:30. | :06:34. | |
mental health purposes with prisons are also issues which I take very | :06:35. | :06:41. | |
seriously and yesterday had meetings with those who have the | :06:42. | :06:44. | |
responsibility for this. We recognise we must improve mental | :06:45. | :06:49. | |
health services in both custody and community for offenders. We | :06:50. | :06:53. | |
recognise substance misuse and services operate must improve in | :06:54. | :06:57. | |
both custody and community and are working hard in order to improve | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
them because we know they are contributing to the problems the | :07:02. | :07:03. | |
honourable lady is mentioned. Finally, with reference the youth | :07:04. | :07:10. | |
and in particular to Felton, the use of segregation is an issue and has | :07:11. | :07:16. | |
been with the case raised. I cannot comment on that particular case | :07:17. | :07:21. | |
because there is an appeal, however, it indicates how difficult it can be | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
to manage young people. Over the past ten years the population of | :07:26. | :07:32. | |
people being held in custody as fallen from 3000 1000, that is | :07:33. | :07:36. | |
something to celebrate, however, what is not to celebrate it | :07:37. | :07:39. | |
initially when the target was set before 2010, there was no plan in | :07:40. | :07:43. | |
place in order to change the infrastructure to meet the demands | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
of dealing with 1000 extremely difficult young people at any one | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
time and the management and we are seeing problems, not just at that | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
Institute but across the system in youth justice and these are things I | :07:56. | :07:58. | |
am fully aware of that why we are bringing forward to new things over | :07:59. | :08:08. | |
the next two years. The ministry's right to be frank | :08:09. | :08:13. | |
that at the Minister is right to be frank about the dire state of others | :08:14. | :08:16. | |
in prisons which the select committee highlighted in several | :08:17. | :08:21. | |
reports -- of our prisons. Would he recognise although there is no | :08:22. | :08:24. | |
present resolution proposed in the current session it would be | :08:25. | :08:29. | |
appropriate for the Government to take forward much of the prison | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
reform agenda but does not require legislation and in particular will | :08:34. | :08:39. | |
he commit to sure that data is provided and update is provided to | :08:40. | :08:44. | |
this house on the progress of implementation of Her Majesty's | :08:45. | :08:48. | |
Inspectorate's recommendations. We do not have to have a recommendation | :08:49. | :08:55. | |
about! Legislation -- we do not need legislation to track the progress | :08:56. | :09:01. | |
being made. I congratulate him on his reappointment as chair of the | :09:02. | :09:05. | |
just the select committee. We are committed to transparency on this | :09:06. | :09:09. | |
and recognise there are a series of challenges and problems within the | :09:10. | :09:12. | |
system and I would be more than happy to come before the select | :09:13. | :09:16. | |
committee and discuss this further. What legislation, we have not ruled | :09:17. | :09:19. | |
out future legislation for prisons but I would argue there is quite a | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
lot we can be getting on with that does not require legislation. We are | :09:26. | :09:28. | |
eager and keen and determined to reform our prison system. | :09:29. | :09:36. | |
Yesterday scathing report by the Chief Inspector of prisons in | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
England and Wales is a watershed moment in the national debate on our | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
prisons. Prison should be places not only for punishment about | :09:45. | :09:47. | |
rehabilitation and should be making us all safer and the short run and | :09:48. | :09:53. | |
longer term. I believe the whole house will be alarmed by the Chief | :09:54. | :09:58. | |
Inspector's view to many of our prisons have become unacceptably | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
violent and dangerous places. Also of the hosts are well aware that if | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
a crisis in our prisons and what the report yesterday revealed is despite | :10:09. | :10:12. | |
warm words from the Government the situation is not under control, it | :10:13. | :10:19. | |
is getting worse. Given this, the Minister has serious questions to | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
answer. Firstly, does he agree with the remarks by his former colleague, | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
the former Chancellor of the Exchequer and former next Prime | :10:27. | :10:33. | |
Minister prisons are approaching an emergency? What role does he think | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
the cuts to the prison budgets and 20p have contributed to this and | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
what measures will he undertake to address this? The Chief inspector | :10:42. | :10:50. | |
warned this crisis has all been compounded by staffing levels and | :10:51. | :10:54. | |
many journals that are simply too low and so does the Minister agree | :10:55. | :11:01. | |
prison officers deserve a pay rise, if we are to increase numbers and | :11:02. | :11:06. | |
improve retention? The Chief inspector also said he is "Appalled | :11:07. | :11:12. | |
by the conditions in which we hold many prisoners." Given the Scot what | :11:13. | :11:16. | |
measures is the Minister taking to address this so we can reform | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
prisons and so prisoners leave prison as less of a danger to | :11:23. | :11:28. | |
society? Or shockingly, the number of self-inflicted deaths as more | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
than doubled since 2013 so what strategy and specific resources will | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
be Minister allocate to reduce this? Finally, the chief inspector says he | :11:39. | :11:43. | |
reached a conclusion there was not a single establishment we inspected in | :11:44. | :11:47. | |
which it was safe to hold children and young people, adding the speed | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
of decline has been staggering. In 2013-14 nine out of 12 institutions | :11:54. | :11:57. | |
were graded as good or reasonably good for safety. Given this, what | :11:58. | :12:02. | |
explanation does the minister have this? Everyone knows the Government | :12:03. | :12:12. | |
has created a crisis and our prisons and the report shows the Government | :12:13. | :12:15. | |
is failing to take action to solve this crisis they have created. | :12:16. | :12:23. | |
I do not think and will not accept the Department has lost control of | :12:24. | :12:30. | |
the prison system, that is nonsense. Secondly, I would like to talk about | :12:31. | :12:35. | |
the 1.3 billion we have invested to transform the state. By transforming | :12:36. | :12:40. | |
it we will improve the quality of the accommodation for prisoners | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
which will have a direct impact on the problems we are encountering in | :12:44. | :12:50. | |
small volumes of people who have mental health and suicidal issues | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
and we recognise part of our estate are antiquated which is why we are | :12:54. | :12:58. | |
investing. In terms of use justice, as I said, we know there are many | :12:59. | :13:04. | |
difficulties in youth justice, violence and rate is ten times | :13:05. | :13:07. | |
higher in youth justice can pay to the adult prison estate. I would | :13:08. | :13:13. | |
like to support and give full support to the staff who continue to | :13:14. | :13:17. | |
work in the youth estate because I have seen it personally and visited | :13:18. | :13:21. | |
the majority of these estates and it is a very difficult and the genesis | :13:22. | :13:26. | |
of this, I would argue, is over many years and as I alluded to earlier of | :13:27. | :13:31. | |
the admirable intention to reduce the number of people in the youth | :13:32. | :13:34. | |
estate being locked up has brought us to the point where we have got a | :13:35. | :13:39. | |
very challenging population that is particularly vibrant and difficult | :13:40. | :13:42. | |
to manage which is why we have these problems. We are bringing forward on | :13:43. | :13:48. | |
secure schools and we have two in the pipeline are content to make | :13:49. | :13:52. | |
them a completely different regime, balance of curriculum and I am | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
particularly passionate about the use of sport to deal with issues we | :13:57. | :14:01. | |
are confronting. I am under no illusions about how difficult this | :14:02. | :14:04. | |
is. We have a plan and will implement it. | :14:05. | :14:08. | |
Mr Speaker, I know the minister appreciate that people with autism | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
are disproportionately represented in our locker still deal system. | :14:14. | :14:20. | |
Notwithstanding the issues that it was the first person to receive | :14:21. | :14:25. | |
autism friendly accreditation, and the governor and staff report that | :14:26. | :14:29. | |
it did contribute to a diminishment any levels of violence across the | :14:30. | :14:35. | |
whole estate. I know some 20 Britons have indicated interest, but would | :14:36. | :14:38. | |
the minister look at this programme and look at actually making it | :14:39. | :14:43. | |
compulsory to roll-out across the entire is an estate, because I think | :14:44. | :14:46. | |
it would be of benefit to prisoners and prison staff alike. I thank her | :14:47. | :14:55. | |
for the question. I am more than happy to consider rolling that out. | :14:56. | :15:00. | |
There are positive schemes, not just with regard to the diagnosis and | :15:01. | :15:06. | |
treatment of autism, but also very sports clubs, football clubs, | :15:07. | :15:10. | |
Saracens at Pelton, the work they are doing any evidence of the | :15:11. | :15:15. | |
outcomes is very positive. That is why I am passionate about this area, | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
because I think that if we can get the management of autism and mental | :15:21. | :15:24. | |
health and broaden the curriculum so there is more time spent outside of | :15:25. | :15:27. | |
cells, I am convinced that we can change the behaviour in the | :15:28. | :15:31. | |
atmosphere within each of these prisons and these institutions, so | :15:32. | :15:34. | |
our staff in these places can feel is safe. The combination of rising | :15:35. | :15:44. | |
prison numbers and shrinking budgets is able major factor affecting the | :15:45. | :15:49. | |
welfare of both prison officers and prisoners, and it is regrettable | :15:50. | :15:52. | |
that in this situation the UK Government has dropped prison reform | :15:53. | :15:55. | |
from the Queen's speech and continues to cut budgets and staff | :15:56. | :16:00. | |
numbers. In contrast, in Scotland, the SNP Government has continued to | :16:01. | :16:04. | |
invest in modernising and improving the prison estate, and the Scottish | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
Government has committed to significant penal reforms aimed at | :16:10. | :16:11. | |
reducing reoffending by moving away from custodial sentences in favour | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
of community sentences, which had been proven to be better at | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
rehabilitation. Does the minister agree that he should follow the | :16:21. | :16:23. | |
example of the Scottish Government and concentrate his efforts on | :16:24. | :16:28. | |
schemes that will reduce prison numbers and reduce overcrowding, | :16:29. | :16:31. | |
thereby reducing pressure on prison officers and prisoners? Yes, | :16:32. | :16:38. | |
intellect and I would agree that we can reduce the prison population, | :16:39. | :16:42. | |
this would make life easier, I know this The to your state agrees with | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
that position. The big day is that balance constantly by the Justice | :16:49. | :16:50. | |
issue, people who have committed crimes in the desert their time, the | :16:51. | :16:54. | |
question is whether the south that time. I am is possible for women | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
passed by justice, there is a strategy coming out at the end of | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
the year, where I lay much wanted to concentrate on community provision | :17:03. | :17:06. | |
of sentences. I think if we can move to that model of provision, this | :17:07. | :17:09. | |
could be rolled out in future years to the adult male state, there is a | :17:10. | :17:15. | |
lot to be learned from every House people when they are serving their | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
time. I am going to Scotland in the autumn, and I'm looking forward to | :17:21. | :17:23. | |
seeing the progress up there because I gather very good work is being | :17:24. | :17:31. | |
done. If he satisfied that there are sufficient remedies available now to | :17:32. | :17:42. | |
deal violent offenders? Yes, I am. The minister is quite right to say | :17:43. | :17:47. | |
that legislation by itself will not solve this crisis, and then used the | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
other measures. Given that there was a printer 's Bill already drafted | :17:51. | :17:54. | |
that had made some progress in the last session, can you tell the House | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
while that Bill has been dropped, and if the Government is committed | :17:59. | :18:02. | |
to prison reform, why hasn't dropped a piece of legislation that was | :18:03. | :18:07. | |
ready to be had by this House? We can deliver our reform package | :18:08. | :18:11. | |
without the need for any further legislation, if there is a | :18:12. | :18:13. | |
requirement for further legislation then that has not been ruled out in | :18:14. | :18:20. | |
a future. As he recognises, the S Parliamentary time prices here and | :18:21. | :18:24. | |
this is something which we are having to accommodate, however there | :18:25. | :18:26. | |
is absolutely no reason why we cannot continue with the reform | :18:27. | :18:31. | |
programme that we have planned. Would he agree that while they are | :18:32. | :18:37. | |
challenges, there is much positive transformative work being done in | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
prisons by dedicated officers on mental health, chaplaincy services, | :18:43. | :18:44. | |
restorative justice programmes, like the work I have seen and full cross | :18:45. | :18:51. | |
over many years. Would he join me in thanking them and the many dedicated | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
officers like them who do such a feminist job? I thank her for the | :18:55. | :18:59. | |
question. Yes, again, it is an example of how throughout the | :19:00. | :19:03. | |
system, there are positive schemes being followed. There are people | :19:04. | :19:07. | |
working in a variety of areas, including mental health, who are | :19:08. | :19:11. | |
delivering care to prisoners who need that care. So that they can | :19:12. | :19:14. | |
probably rehabilitate for returning to society. The minister refers to | :19:15. | :19:26. | |
the advent of drugs like spice as being an unknown quantity, but with | :19:27. | :19:32. | |
a quarter fewer prison officers since 2010, I hardly think that | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
helps to address these new challenges. Our thoughts on staff | :19:36. | :19:40. | |
are up by 70% since 2009, and in 2016 alone one in five justice staff | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
left the sector. Will he confirm that there is an attempt in crisis | :19:46. | :19:49. | |
that is being fuelled by the disgraceful amount of rising | :19:50. | :19:52. | |
assaults on staff and our prison service? As I hope my honourable | :19:53. | :19:58. | |
colleague acknowledges, I am trying to be a candidate possible about the | :19:59. | :20:01. | |
difficulties we face. We acknowledged a year ago that there | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
was a need for more staff, we are delivering on that. I must stress | :20:07. | :20:10. | |
there wasn't an expectation this drug was going to cause this | :20:11. | :20:14. | |
problem. There is yet to be proper documentation about how this drug | :20:15. | :20:18. | |
affects the prisoners, the people taking it, and their behaviour, and | :20:19. | :20:22. | |
the long-term impact it might have the prison population. We | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
acknowledge that we need more staff, and that those staff need better | :20:27. | :20:29. | |
training, particularly in the youth justice system we are bringing a | :20:30. | :20:32. | |
youth custody role, because it recognised the need to be additional | :20:33. | :20:36. | |
skills. We recognise what the problems are and we are working to | :20:37. | :20:45. | |
solve them. I know the minister will share my concern about the impact of | :20:46. | :20:49. | |
contraband, including psychoactive substances on prisoners and the | :20:50. | :20:52. | |
buyer was it can cause. Could he confirm what measures are being | :20:53. | :20:55. | |
taken by the Department to stop these materials get into prisons in | :20:56. | :21:03. | |
the first place? Yes, we have improved the seizure of drugs, by | :21:04. | :21:08. | |
two out of 25 kilos last 12 months, up on the previous year, we have | :21:09. | :21:12. | |
employed dogs to detect psychoactive substances and we are the first area | :21:13. | :21:17. | |
jurisdiction in the world to introduce. Testing for psychoactive | :21:18. | :21:20. | |
substances and we continue to develop that service as the | :21:21. | :21:27. | |
substances themselves evolve. I do hope that the new youth custody | :21:28. | :21:32. | |
service that is planned does work, but can he say how many new prison | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
officers will be joining this service this year? No, I cannot give | :21:37. | :21:43. | |
an exact figure. I will get right to him with the figure, but we are | :21:44. | :21:50. | |
actively seeking to recruit an invisible institution, but Eleni | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
south east where there are always challenges around recruiting prison | :21:54. | :21:59. | |
staff, and we are trying, more importantly, to recruit people who | :22:00. | :22:02. | |
have a past history of working with young people. It is a difficult | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
business, working with troubled young individuals, and we recognise | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
that there may have been some errors in the past in terms of recruitment, | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
so going forward we want to recruit people had the proper experience in | :22:15. | :22:17. | |
place. I will write to him about the exact number. Could he say that as a | :22:18. | :22:29. | |
result of this report that he will prioritise rehabilitation plans for | :22:30. | :22:32. | |
offenders, and employment opportunities for ex-offenders? That | :22:33. | :22:38. | |
is very much our intention. There are a number of schemes up and down | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
the country where employers are involved, I visited a women's prison | :22:43. | :22:48. | |
where Halfords have a bicycle repair unit, and I met an offender who was | :22:49. | :22:55. | |
going to leave prison to work for Halfords. I think these kids up and | :22:56. | :22:58. | |
down the country are fantastic, I think we need more of them, and we | :22:59. | :23:01. | |
are working hard to have more of them. This is surely an issue of | :23:02. | :23:08. | |
safeguarding. The chief inspector saying there's not a signal | :23:09. | :23:10. | |
establishment that is not currently saved to hold children and young | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
people. The minister did not answer the specific question put to him by | :23:15. | :23:18. | |
my honourable friend about why there has been such a decline in safety | :23:19. | :23:23. | |
over a staggering decline in the last year, but also as the chief | :23:24. | :23:26. | |
inspector has said, a slump in standards. Can he explain what a | :23:27. | :23:29. | |
slump in standards means, and what he's doing to address it? I don't | :23:30. | :23:40. | |
accept that all institutions are unfit, Werrington received a | :23:41. | :23:43. | |
positive report last week, with regard to the slump, I would also | :23:44. | :23:46. | |
argue that it is not over the last year. The genesis of this problem, I | :23:47. | :23:51. | |
keep making this point, is over a number of years, and with regards | :23:52. | :23:55. | |
particularly to certain institutions. We are wrestling with | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
a legacy at one particular institution where the contract was | :24:00. | :24:03. | |
signed in 2004 is presenting us that act prevented us from making the | :24:04. | :24:08. | |
necessary changes. The idea that this is a problem that was created | :24:09. | :24:12. | |
by this Government is quite obviously just a rather simplistic | :24:13. | :24:18. | |
one and not accurate. This Government is building new prison | :24:19. | :24:23. | |
capacity, including at Wellingborough in Northamptonshire, | :24:24. | :24:25. | |
what difference does my audible friend believe this will make in | :24:26. | :24:31. | |
terms of improving safety? I thank him for his question. Some of the | :24:32. | :24:37. | |
prisons, we have they are Victorian, antiquated, the quality of the cells | :24:38. | :24:40. | |
are substandard, we recognise that which is why building new prisons, | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
prison cells where suicide is much more difficult to commit for | :24:46. | :24:48. | |
example, is what is needed in the system, which is why I am pleased | :24:49. | :24:52. | |
that we are investing ?1.3 billion to do so. I declare an interest as | :24:53. | :25:00. | |
an outgoing crime commission, can I say to him that this report is | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
devastating. He must act. One way of acting very quickly would be to | :25:05. | :25:10. | |
invest in those days, like women offenders which a non-custodial, it | :25:11. | :25:14. | |
is a community orders, which are better returns in terms of | :25:15. | :25:19. | |
reoffending rates. Will he now commit this money to where it might | :25:20. | :25:25. | |
make a real difference? I welcome him back to the House and thank him | :25:26. | :25:30. | |
for his question. It is good to see him here having had a good | :25:31. | :25:33. | |
relationship with him before. The women justice system is a classic | :25:34. | :25:37. | |
example of where I think there is scope for devolving responsibility | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
and funds. The north of England has had a whole system approach to | :25:44. | :25:46. | |
funding of the last year or two in order to try and build a system | :25:47. | :25:51. | |
where women can be treated holistically, when a team understand | :25:52. | :25:56. | |
each womaned home, situation, partners, relationships, so they can | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
bear down on the number of people who are locked up. In this strategy | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
which will be delivered before the end of this year, I hope that more | :26:04. | :26:06. | |
detailed outline of what I want to do any north-west.... In November | :26:07. | :26:11. | |
last year, the department outlined in the white paper is the most | :26:12. | :26:18. | |
comrades plan for improving our prisons for a generation. MNR to | :26:19. | :26:22. | |
require primary legislation, I would like to see that brought forward in | :26:23. | :26:26. | |
due course. Particularly changing the statutory definition of the | :26:27. | :26:29. | |
purpose of a prison to include rehabilitation and reform, but the | :26:30. | :26:33. | |
bass majority do not. Will he confirm that his department will | :26:34. | :26:36. | |
continue to implement the white paper in full? He is very informed | :26:37. | :26:44. | |
on this, and yes, you are right, the great majority of that reform | :26:45. | :26:47. | |
package that was announced last year can be delivered without any further | :26:48. | :26:52. | |
legislation, and as I have said, I think we have not ruled out primary | :26:53. | :26:56. | |
legislation in this area in the near future. By what they does the | :26:57. | :27:02. | |
minister expect the first people to be entering the new units that he | :27:03. | :27:06. | |
has announced one-off and south? Woody update the Justice committee | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
on the objectives that he has set for improving the situation, and | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
would he agree to look again at the recommendations from lord Toby | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
Harris that the Government did not agree to, when they were reduced | :27:18. | :27:23. | |
early last year? I think he's referring to the secure schools, but | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
currently we are committed to one opening of September 20 19. There is | :27:29. | :27:33. | |
a possibility that being earlier, but it depends upon finding the | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
appropriate site. As you might imagine, the size have to be secure | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
and we are working aged in my heart on that. We are in negotiations with | :27:42. | :27:47. | |
various agencies about particular interest in the London... Assisting | :27:48. | :27:53. | |
us in this, so when we know about the locations, we can be a bit | :27:54. | :27:57. | |
clearer about the delivery date. The wider questions with regards to the | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
state of the justice system, as you can properly tell, I think that we | :28:04. | :28:09. | |
needed to move the was a different system of how we lock up young | :28:10. | :28:13. | |
people. Some young people are going to be locked up and be have an | :28:14. | :28:18. | |
uptake in sexual crimes at the moment, small but coming, and we | :28:19. | :28:22. | |
recognised this, but in manner and way in which we lock up young | :28:23. | :28:26. | |
people, the environment and staffing has to change. We recognise this, | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
this report confirms what we already knew. My intention is to work hard | :28:32. | :28:36. | |
to enforce a plan so that any next ten years we can get to a situation | :28:37. | :28:40. | |
where our young people are not only safe and secure but are also | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
probably the ability. -- the ability did. | :28:46. | :28:51. | |
The additional money this Government has invested in order to discover | :28:52. | :29:00. | |
the mobile phones smuggled into prisons is welcome but would like | :29:01. | :29:07. | |
honourable friend Gillie is is something we need to -- agree this | :29:08. | :29:10. | |
is something we need to continue to monitor and do more to tackle? | :29:11. | :29:15. | |
Yes, we have made real progress here, we are stopping thousands of | :29:16. | :29:22. | |
mobile phones getting into prisons and are working very hard with | :29:23. | :29:27. | |
regards to the use of drones and working hard to block mobile phone | :29:28. | :29:32. | |
signals in prisons. It is not perfect and it is not finished but | :29:33. | :29:36. | |
we are continuing to press hard because if we can reach the point | :29:37. | :29:42. | |
where we have a mobile phone for the prison network this would be | :29:43. | :29:44. | |
fantastic. I look forward to the strategy from | :29:45. | :29:50. | |
an offender is the Minister indicated he would bring forward | :29:51. | :29:55. | |
later this year. 30% of women in custody self harm last year and 12 | :29:56. | :30:01. | |
women killed in the highest level since 2004. In reviewing the estate | :30:02. | :30:07. | |
for women will he take the opportunity once and for all to take | :30:08. | :30:12. | |
on board the recommendations for those women who do need to be in | :30:13. | :30:17. | |
custody not to place them in prisons far from the families but in small, | :30:18. | :30:24. | |
secure community units. It's a once opportunity to do this and please | :30:25. | :30:29. | |
will be Minister take take it. The report was one of the first | :30:30. | :30:33. | |
things I read when I was appointed to my role in July 20 16. It has a | :30:34. | :30:39. | |
persuasive case. There is an issue about some woman and where they | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
should be held, I am completely convinced you can go down the path | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
of the woman all being held in community provision residential | :30:48. | :30:52. | |
woman centres but what I am persuaded of is we can reduce the | :30:53. | :30:55. | |
population of woman we currently locked up. This is primarily based | :30:56. | :31:04. | |
upon our way in which we deliver community provision and mental | :31:05. | :31:08. | |
health care, both before, during and after serving in prisons. I have met | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
a number of women in prison, the majority of them have displayed | :31:16. | :31:20. | |
scars of self harm. I am a doctor and I observe these things and it is | :31:21. | :31:24. | |
quite distressing to see this. In order to deal with this problem we | :31:25. | :31:28. | |
need to get the environment in which they are helped changed and get | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
their mental health services improved. These are my two | :31:33. | :31:38. | |
priorities I hope by the end of the year the honourable lady will be | :31:39. | :31:45. | |
reassured we are getting it right. Listening to parents of young | :31:46. | :31:49. | |
offenders has been very eye opening in my constituency surgeries and | :31:50. | :31:54. | |
also to those working at Winchester prison who have seen the impact of | :31:55. | :31:58. | |
people who basically never got out of the prison system so I welcome | :31:59. | :32:03. | |
the focus on the dealing with growing level of violence and focus | :32:04. | :32:09. | |
on youth justice. It's vital we look individually and outcomes. Can I ask | :32:10. | :32:13. | |
the Minister how this new unit can ensure these recommendations | :32:14. | :32:20. | |
actually come forward? The unit the honourable lady refers | :32:21. | :32:24. | |
to has been set up within the Department image of the | :32:25. | :32:26. | |
recommendations are followed. I gather this is the first time it has | :32:27. | :32:31. | |
been created. With youth justice, the key is and also applying to | :32:32. | :32:36. | |
woman justice, can we build a network over time where people are | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
held closer to home so that families can stay in contact, both with young | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
people and also mothers in particular keeping in contact with | :32:46. | :32:50. | |
their children. But as an intention and why I have mapped the country of | :32:51. | :32:55. | |
both women and youth justice in order to make sure what we bring | :32:56. | :32:59. | |
forward fits into that framework to deliver time in prison closer to | :33:00. | :33:06. | |
home for women and young people. There is a grave situation in our | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
prisons and the Minister is being typically frank in acknowledging | :33:10. | :33:13. | |
that. One of the problems is the large cohort of prisoners on | :33:14. | :33:19. | |
indeterminate sentences. Can the Minister confirm the Government is | :33:20. | :33:22. | |
committed to getting that number down as quickly as possible? | :33:23. | :33:29. | |
Yes, this has been a long-running issue in the prison system and the | :33:30. | :33:38. | |
answer is yes. Reoffending rates remain stubbornly | :33:39. | :33:41. | |
high, especially with young offenders, where nearly seven out of | :33:42. | :33:46. | |
ten who are sent to prison go on to reoffend upon release. We know it is | :33:47. | :33:51. | |
to do with the convictions and environment in our prisons and young | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
offenders Institute and what more can be done to ensure effective | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
rehabilitation, especially for young people? | :33:59. | :34:07. | |
The recidivism rate in the youth estate is not acceptable and | :34:08. | :34:10. | |
environment on people's health is not acceptable and in some | :34:11. | :34:12. | |
institutions they are locked up for too long but is primarily related to | :34:13. | :34:16. | |
safety and security of the institution. This must change. There | :34:17. | :34:25. | |
are programmes in place, which show evidence of reducing recidivism | :34:26. | :34:30. | |
rates. I am determined we change the curriculum being delivered in the | :34:31. | :34:33. | |
youth estate and people need to spend more time outside, sporting a | :34:34. | :34:40. | |
particular example. If we do that I think we will achieve what my | :34:41. | :34:45. | |
honourable friend wants to achieve. Finally, by the early next year I | :34:46. | :34:53. | |
plan on bringing out a sports review of the criminal justice system and | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
sport and in particular youth justice and recommendations in that | :34:58. | :35:03. | |
will be interesting to see. Urgent question, Mr Tim Farren. To | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
ask the Secretary of State for the home Department if she will update | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
the house and implementation of section 67 of the migration act | :35:13. | :35:21. | |
2016? The Government is fully committed to | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
helping and supporting the most vulnerable children. We have | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
contributed significantly to hosting and protecting vulnerable children | :35:30. | :35:33. | |
affected by the migration crisis. This is part of our wider response | :35:34. | :35:38. | |
of taking 23,000 people from the region. We already granted asylum or | :35:39. | :35:44. | |
leave to 8000 children, local authorities across the country are | :35:45. | :35:49. | |
supporting over 4000 unaccompanied asylum seeking children. Children | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
transferred under section 67 are being cared for by local authorities | :35:54. | :36:00. | |
across the country. We take our responsibility to those children | :36:01. | :36:04. | |
very seriously and safeguarding them is of paramount importance. | :36:05. | :36:08. | |
Following consultation with local authorities the Government said the | :36:09. | :36:10. | |
number of children to be transferred under the scheme at 480. We invited | :36:11. | :36:17. | |
referrals of legible children from several countries and our officials | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
at the Home Office are visited these countries to put in place processes | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
to further identify transfer of eligible children. In the past week | :36:26. | :36:30. | |
I spoke to my counterpart in Greece and Italy specifically on this issue | :36:31. | :36:34. | |
and will follow up with face-to-face meetings in both cases next week. It | :36:35. | :36:40. | |
is important to remember the processes for transferring children | :36:41. | :36:42. | |
must be implemented in line with each individual member state's | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
national laws and all transfers of children must be carried out safely | :36:48. | :36:51. | |
and with the best interests of the children at the centre of all | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
decisions regarding transfer. The ongoing work to transfer children | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
under section 67 is an addition to our other commitments. We continue | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
to work closely with member states and relevant partners to ensure | :37:05. | :37:08. | |
children with family in the UK can be transferred quickly and safely. | :37:09. | :37:12. | |
Our approach continues to be to take refugees directly from conflict | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
regions, providing refugees with a more direct and safe route to our | :37:17. | :37:20. | |
country rather than risking hazardous journeys to Europe. We are | :37:21. | :37:24. | |
committed to resettling 23,000 people from the region and our | :37:25. | :37:28. | |
resettlement schemes are some of the largest and longest-running schemes | :37:29. | :37:31. | |
in the EU. So far we have resettled more than 7000 people under the | :37:32. | :37:37. | |
resettlement scheme and the vulnerable children resettlement | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
scheme. Children are resettled with family members, thereby discouraged | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
from making perilous journeys alone to do. It is worth noting families | :37:47. | :37:53. | |
continue to arrive from the region. Yesterday at 199 individuals and | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
another 80 are due next week. All part of the Government's approach to | :37:58. | :38:03. | |
helping the most vulnerable. I thank the Minister, it seems those | :38:04. | :38:11. | |
are somewhat hollow words. Before the election the Government promised | :38:12. | :38:16. | |
to transfer 480 refugee children from Europe to the UK, in the other | :38:17. | :38:21. | |
place recently they admitted so far only 200 unaccompanied children have | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
been given sanctuary here. When does this Government expect to fulfil | :38:27. | :38:31. | |
this measly commitment and will be Minister today give us a date? Icy | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
measly because the UK Government could do so much more. Freedom of | :38:37. | :38:42. | |
Information Act request show local councils have voluntarily offered to | :38:43. | :38:48. | |
accept 1572 more children in addition to those they already | :38:49. | :38:52. | |
support. Does the Minister knows this and in light of this will the | :38:53. | :38:57. | |
Government reopen Dubs and take its fair share? As summer approaches | :38:58. | :39:03. | |
more are catering to dangerous crossings across the Mediterranean | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
to reach European shores, more desperate children without anyone | :39:09. | :39:14. | |
looking after them... We cannot have two sets of exchanges taking place. | :39:15. | :39:21. | |
There is a rather unseemly exchange taking place between two members who | :39:22. | :39:26. | |
are gesticulating at the other and an obvious dispute and the mosque | :39:27. | :39:30. | |
harm themselves and listen to the eloquence of the -- they must harm | :39:31. | :39:41. | |
themselves. -- calm. It is understandable that | :39:42. | :39:49. | |
rises passions. As summer approaches more are taking the dangerous | :39:50. | :39:52. | |
crossings across the Mediterranean to reach European shores, more | :39:53. | :39:55. | |
desperate refugee children without anyone looking after them will | :39:56. | :39:59. | |
arrive in Europe and the Government said it will not take or consider | :40:00. | :40:07. | |
taking any child under Dubs arrived after the arbitrary cut-off date of | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
the 20th of March 2000 and 16. In light of the blaze which are the | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
Government's fault will be no extent the state which is as heartless as | :40:16. | :40:22. | |
pointless. I have visited the camps and increase and elsewhere, | :40:23. | :40:27. | |
something neither the Home Secretary Prime Minister have done. I cannot | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
forget what I have seen. I've met those children who, through no fault | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
of their own, find their lives on pause as ministers here choose to | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
ignore them. How many children have been taken from Greece to date is | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
under the Dubs Amendment? Has the UK even signed a memorandum of | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
understanding with Greece to get these transfers under way? I know of | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
two young people who signed a consent form to be transferred under | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
Dubs over a year ago and they are still stuck in Greece. The hollow | :41:00. | :41:08. | |
victories is the longer this goes on -- the perfect thrift is the longer | :41:09. | :41:11. | |
this goes on more likely these children go missing and unlawful to | :41:12. | :41:18. | |
the hands of traffickers will this Government stepped up or continue to | :41:19. | :41:24. | |
ignore the plight of these desperate children? | :41:25. | :41:30. | |
The honourable gentleman points are made on a series of false premises. | :41:31. | :41:35. | |
We have got a range of schemes and are working with 23,000. I would | :41:36. | :41:41. | |
politely say the number he talks about, behind every number, there is | :41:42. | :41:47. | |
a child and what is important is to make sure those children get the | :41:48. | :41:50. | |
support they need in the right time and place. He speaks of timelines | :41:51. | :41:55. | |
but he seems to forget Italy and Greece are nation states and we must | :41:56. | :42:00. | |
work with them run their own minds. I would also point out, he mentioned | :42:01. | :42:06. | |
the request for local authorities which is simply wrong. We consultant | :42:07. | :42:10. | |
with local authorities which is what we said we would do much about the | :42:11. | :42:15. | |
figure of 480 and the Freedom of Information request he spoke of does | :42:16. | :42:20. | |
not recover local authorities can provide, it talks about the 0.7% | :42:21. | :42:24. | |
threshold which is an entirely different calculation so he should | :42:25. | :42:28. | |
go and look at that further. We are clear that making sure we do not | :42:29. | :42:33. | |
create a pool factor but still do the right thing, as we have done | :42:34. | :42:37. | |
with the ?2.46 billion of support, one of the biggest contributors of | :42:38. | :42:42. | |
humanitarian aid we have ever conducted, to look after people | :42:43. | :42:48. | |
needing our help. Instead of playing politics with this we should get on | :42:49. | :42:53. | |
with looking after them. Can I urge the Minister to keep that | :42:54. | :42:57. | |
deadline in place because it is incredibly important we do not | :42:58. | :43:02. | |
encourage any more children or their families to send them off and | :43:03. | :43:06. | |
dangerous journeys. We should continue taking indirectly from the | :43:07. | :43:09. | |
region, directly from the camps were we can make sure they -- directly | :43:10. | :43:16. | |
from the region and if they get to Europe they will be able to stay -- | :43:17. | :43:21. | |
if we see they get to Europe and they can stay exactly what | :43:22. | :43:24. | |
encourages the dangerous journeys and will lead to the deaths of | :43:25. | :43:25. | |
children. Has experience on this is absolute | :43:26. | :43:37. | |
right. This is why it is important to remember that there are already | :43:38. | :43:40. | |
some 7000 children brought over to the scheme is that we operate from | :43:41. | :43:46. | |
the region. First of all, and also remind him that the scheme is not | :43:47. | :43:50. | |
close. We are still working. I will be going out next week to speak with | :43:51. | :43:54. | |
ministers from Italy and Greece. It is still operating. It is also | :43:55. | :43:58. | |
important to remember that the people who are most vulnerable I | :43:59. | :44:02. | |
cannot afford to be paying human traffickers are the children in the | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
region and that is where our focus should be, to make sure we do not | :44:08. | :44:13. | |
create a pool factor as he has said. The House understands the | :44:14. | :44:16. | |
Government's preference to take unaccompanied children directly from | :44:17. | :44:20. | |
the region, but I have visited the camps in France and Greece, and the | :44:21. | :44:24. | |
visit -- minister needs to be reminded those children are already | :44:25. | :44:30. | |
there, often living in horrible conditions, and particularly at the | :44:31. | :44:34. | |
mercy of traffickers and sexual exploitation. Will the minister tell | :44:35. | :44:41. | |
the House how many children will come into this country in 2017-18, | :44:42. | :44:50. | |
under section 67? How many children will come to Dublin this year? How | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
long has each case taken an average? And what is the future of close | :44:55. | :45:02. | |
family reunion was we leave the European Union, and will the | :45:03. | :45:06. | |
Government consider expanding the UK immigration rights so that | :45:07. | :45:11. | |
children's rights is in no way diminished, with the Government | :45:12. | :45:14. | |
simply walk away from its moral obligations on the matter? I think | :45:15. | :45:23. | |
the final point of her question does not do her less House on this | :45:24. | :45:28. | |
country justice. We end this country should be proud and councils and | :45:29. | :45:32. | |
charity groups and individuals, particularly the sponsorship scheme | :45:33. | :45:37. | |
with ?1 million, do phenomenal work across this country, welcoming the | :45:38. | :45:41. | |
most vulnerable people here. It is right that we look at people who are | :45:42. | :45:44. | |
the most vulnerable, cannot afford to be paying human traffickers, the | :45:45. | :45:47. | |
Dallas bought out in the region, rather than those who are in | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
European countries. We do have agreements with them, we are still | :45:52. | :45:55. | |
bringing people over, but I were just remind her that these | :45:56. | :45:59. | |
countries, we have to work with them and the laws in their states as | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
well. They are nation states. I would say to her, in terms of what | :46:04. | :46:08. | |
happens afterwards, our position has been clear. The fact that we are | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
running the biggest human caring project country has seen highlights | :46:13. | :46:15. | |
our determination to do the right thing, we will concede to do the | :46:16. | :46:18. | |
right thing and fulfil our moral duty to those who need our most. The | :46:19. | :46:28. | |
words may have more credibility if they acknowledge the huge effort and | :46:29. | :46:31. | |
resources that have gone into this by the British Government to date. I | :46:32. | :46:36. | |
have been to Athens and the niqabs as well, and I see the fantastic | :46:37. | :46:39. | |
work that is being done. However there is a criticism that it is | :46:40. | :46:44. | |
taking too long to get those children properly processed and | :46:45. | :46:47. | |
asset who have a right to be here, and will heal also acknowledge that | :46:48. | :46:53. | |
post Brexit, when we come out of the Dublin scheme, they will be a | :46:54. | :46:56. | |
problem with children underneath family reunion scheme and can be | :46:57. | :47:00. | |
make sure they can still be matched with those relations beyond just | :47:01. | :47:03. | |
parents, because many of them have lost their parents but do have | :47:04. | :47:08. | |
siblings in this country with whom they could be safely and | :47:09. | :47:14. | |
appropriately placed? I appreciate his point. He is explain in what he | :47:15. | :47:22. | |
saw, I said I would be go out myself next week. It is worth bearing in | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
mind looking at how we are helping people, the finance and focus, we | :47:29. | :47:32. | |
should be proud of that as a country. We should remember that for | :47:33. | :47:36. | |
every 3000 people that we bring over and help, we could be helping | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
800,000 people out in the regions. We had to be clear about where we | :47:42. | :47:46. | |
put our focus. But they said to the honourable lady, and have got post | :47:47. | :47:52. | |
Brexit, we want to continue the right thing for people who are in | :47:53. | :47:55. | |
those viable situations in the region and we will be working to | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
deliver that and I are happy to work with him on that. I would like to | :47:59. | :48:06. | |
congratulate the right Honourable member for Lonsdale, make it clear | :48:07. | :48:09. | |
to the minister that what he said was not based on false premises. I | :48:10. | :48:13. | |
am able to say this because I attended the launch of a report by | :48:14. | :48:17. | |
the human trafficking foundation last week, following an independent | :48:18. | :48:21. | |
enquiry into the situation of unaccompanied minors in Europe. This | :48:22. | :48:25. | |
independent enquiry has found that UK ministers have done, I quote, as | :48:26. | :48:30. | |
little as legally possible to help unaccompanied children who have fled | :48:31. | :48:34. | |
war and conflict in their home. It says the UK Government have, I | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
quote, turned away from a Germanic in a crisis that would not be | :48:39. | :48:41. | |
tolerable to the British public if they were more aware of it, and that | :48:42. | :48:45. | |
by failing to offer safe passage, the UK Government are, and I quote, | :48:46. | :48:51. | |
unquestionably fuelling both people trafficking and smuggling. These are | :48:52. | :48:55. | |
not my words, they are the findings of an independent enquiry. What is | :48:56. | :48:58. | |
the minister going to do about it? And there is no point in shouting at | :48:59. | :49:03. | |
me, because the minister and his colleagues do not like the findings | :49:04. | :49:06. | |
of an independent enquiry. The British public deserve to know about | :49:07. | :49:11. | |
this. What steps is the Government taking to resolve the blockages in | :49:12. | :49:16. | |
the transfer of children that we voted for in this House last year, | :49:17. | :49:20. | |
thinking there would be 3000 transfers, when do they expect those | :49:21. | :49:27. | |
transfers to begin? Goals the transfers have already been | :49:28. | :49:30. | |
happening. We are determined to deliver what we set out. As part of | :49:31. | :49:36. | |
the 23,000 people, we are bringing over 7000 children already. I | :49:37. | :49:39. | |
actually would encourage more people to have a look at what she refers to | :49:40. | :49:44. | |
as an independent report, where one of the co-authors is a recently | :49:45. | :49:47. | |
retired Labour member of Parliament. I read the report and I would | :49:48. | :49:53. | |
encourage people to read it. It is they had a lot of accusations and | :49:54. | :49:58. | |
statements with no evidence. I do disagree with the report but my | :49:59. | :50:11. | |
point are based... Still stands. As well as accepting refugees into this | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
country, it is also the case that the United Kingdom is the second | :50:16. | :50:19. | |
largest donor to the crisis behind the United States, it has given more | :50:20. | :50:23. | |
than the rest of the EU combined. I support the Government having a | :50:24. | :50:28. | |
holistic conference of approach, and will he continue to commit the | :50:29. | :50:31. | |
Government to providing the right help in the right places? Goals he | :50:32. | :50:36. | |
is absolutely right, it is important. We are focusing helped | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
numerous possible most lovable and places that need that aboard, while | :50:40. | :50:43. | |
doing what we can as part of our work with the partners across Europe | :50:44. | :50:46. | |
has bought those we have agreed as a bought and we will continue to do | :50:47. | :50:54. | |
so. The minister knows it is not an easy helping children in imaging and | :50:55. | :50:58. | |
those in Europe, and those that are here. Parliament told the Government | :50:59. | :51:03. | |
to help low child refugees from Europe when it passed the Dubs | :51:04. | :51:06. | |
Amendment last year. I know the Government did not want to agree to | :51:07. | :51:11. | |
it, but it was passed. The way in which they have narrowed the | :51:12. | :51:15. | |
criteria, dragged their feet, failed to even counter the Council officers | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
properly, is shameful. Will he confirm that they have only helped | :51:20. | :51:24. | |
around 200 children to the amendment, despite the fact that | :51:25. | :51:30. | |
councils have offered nearly 500 places, confirmed that there are | :51:31. | :51:33. | |
tens of thousand children refugees still alone in Europe and Italy and | :51:34. | :51:37. | |
Greece cannot cope with what they are having to deal with. All he has | :51:38. | :51:41. | |
managed to do it said a view officials to Italy and Greece to try | :51:42. | :51:44. | |
and read a few procedures for the future, when this has been going on | :51:45. | :51:48. | |
for years, is frankly shameful. I would say to him, stop with the warm | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
words about helping the most vulnerable children and actually get | :51:53. | :51:55. | |
on with it as Parliament said they should. The number of children we | :51:56. | :52:04. | |
can help I have been clear, giving them the right support. They need | :52:05. | :52:08. | |
the support network to BN ported and valued member of our community. It | :52:09. | :52:12. | |
is important we do that within what local authorities can actually | :52:13. | :52:15. | |
provide. With the restrictions they have got, the capacity they have, | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
that is what we're doing, to make sure they get the right support. In | :52:19. | :52:23. | |
2016, we did grab asylum or some form of leave over 8000 children, | :52:24. | :52:30. | |
and since 2010 some 42,000 children, so we are doing a bit and we want to | :52:31. | :52:34. | |
continue doing that work. I would say to her, in terms of what we're | :52:35. | :52:37. | |
doing with other countries, they have a own rules and regulations, | :52:38. | :52:42. | |
I'm sure she will appreciate that we do have to work with them about what | :52:43. | :52:46. | |
works for them with their laws, we will continue to do that, and that | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
is why visiting Italy and Greece next week. I know everybody is | :52:51. | :52:57. | |
incredibly passionate about this, but I would hope collectively we can | :52:58. | :53:00. | |
be proud of what the country as a whole has contributed to the refugee | :53:01. | :53:04. | |
crisis in Syria. It is tremendous. Visiting the camps does rather shift | :53:05. | :53:10. | |
your perception about how the picture forms of all. I know the | :53:11. | :53:13. | |
Government and I have different views on the amendment and I still | :53:14. | :53:16. | |
maintain their is more capacity available in our councils and more | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
capacity in our country to help. I am particularly concerned as we move | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
towards this brave new Brexit world what will happen to the Dublin | :53:27. | :53:29. | |
three, family children have continue Canis yet? And how Abbey go to make | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
sure that those pieces of legislation are embedded in our own | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
laws will relieve the EU? Goals I take around local authorities and we | :53:44. | :53:46. | |
were treated to work with them, the numbers we have a based on the | :53:47. | :53:51. | |
numbers they have given us. We were treated to look at the numbers that | :53:52. | :53:56. | |
they feed in, in order to deal with children who come over to the | :53:57. | :53:59. | |
schemes and commitments that we have got. In terms of going forward, I | :54:00. | :54:04. | |
can give her the reassurance that we are determined to make sure we | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
fulfil our commitment, as they go through the negotiations of leaving | :54:09. | :54:13. | |
the EU, exactly what format that will take in terms of technically, | :54:14. | :54:19. | |
it is too soon to say, but we are determined to stick with the moral | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
and ethical duty that we have participated in a continue to | :54:24. | :54:31. | |
provide that support. I think he gets the message, the whole House | :54:32. | :54:37. | |
once this process to be enacted as speedily as possible. Can I take him | :54:38. | :54:40. | |
back to one of the points made by the Honourable member for Westbrook | :54:41. | :54:46. | |
-- Lonsdale, but the Mediterranean crisis and the summer crisis that | :54:47. | :54:49. | |
will unfurl to? What additional help is being given to enable those who | :54:50. | :54:58. | |
have some responsibility in Libya to prevent boats being set off onto the | :54:59. | :55:04. | |
Mediterranean which will only result in people buying, especially | :55:05. | :55:06. | |
children, before they reach the mainland? Goals as always with his | :55:07. | :55:14. | |
vast experience in this area, he makes an important point. It is | :55:15. | :55:17. | |
important that in this discussion we do not lose sight of what is | :55:18. | :55:22. | |
happening and continues to happen in the Mediterranean. We are contained | :55:23. | :55:27. | |
to work with member state authorities, including the UNC are, | :55:28. | :55:31. | |
and other NGOs, to agree what more we can do to look at what is | :55:32. | :55:34. | |
happening in our region. The Prime Minister made up own statement after | :55:35. | :55:38. | |
last EU Council meeting. We'll continue to deliver on that to make | :55:39. | :55:42. | |
sure we do not rate a cool factor, give a clear message that that | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
journey is one that people should not conduct, and that is my wee | :55:48. | :55:53. | |
continue that phenomenal work we do, along with the ?10 million money | :55:54. | :55:58. | |
that is coming to to work with people in the regions to make sure | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
we make things that are safe and as flexible possible. As he has set | :56:03. | :56:12. | |
out, tackling this problem at source and tackling the carpeting is a real | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
crucial part of addressing this, and I wonder if he could perhaps outline | :56:18. | :56:21. | |
briefly what the British security services and police are doing, | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
together with European counterparts, to track down and arrest and | :56:26. | :56:28. | |
prosecute those people traffickers who wish to profit directly from | :56:29. | :56:32. | |
exploiting the situation that we face. It is important we continue to | :56:33. | :56:40. | |
give a clear message to the atrocious and completely disgraceful | :56:41. | :56:47. | |
traffickers out there who continue to supply a despicable trade. The | :56:48. | :56:51. | |
smuggling said there was formed in February this year in response to | :56:52. | :56:55. | |
the increase in the number of regular migrants, and we do tend to | :56:56. | :56:59. | |
work with our partners and our national crime agency to focus and | :57:00. | :57:03. | |
drive out that that form of trafficking as well as organised | :57:04. | :57:06. | |
crime that drives around this, and has been a clear message at every | :57:07. | :57:18. | |
stage. That behaviour needs to end. As the minister will know, from the | :57:19. | :57:21. | |
response of the High Court to the judicial review of how the | :57:22. | :57:25. | |
consultation on the places available for children are available in the | :57:26. | :57:31. | |
UK, section 67 is explicitly about families in Europe. Can I ask him | :57:32. | :57:35. | |
about a acidic case that I wrote to his office about over a week ago, | :57:36. | :57:40. | |
involving an incredibly vulnerable Syrian family who are in Leila, who | :57:41. | :57:43. | |
had been wrongfully refused a right to come to the UK under the Dublin | :57:44. | :57:48. | |
regulations, I have not yet had an acknowledgement from his office of | :57:49. | :57:52. | |
that receipt of correspondence, will he agreed to meet with me to review | :57:53. | :57:56. | |
this case urgently of a suicidal mother and her young children, and | :57:57. | :57:59. | |
discuss how we can better approve the way which people claim asylum | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
and come to the UK, so it is not just the smugglers who beat them in | :58:04. | :58:09. | |
Calais? Goals I would say to her, the seat she will appreciate I | :58:10. | :58:14. | |
cannot cause comment on a particular case today. I will find out why she | :58:15. | :58:19. | |
has not had a response and get one to her as soon as possible. Last | :58:20. | :58:26. | |
week I visited the refugee camp on the Syrian border, and it was quite | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
clear to us speaking to the parents that they did not want their peers | :58:31. | :58:34. | |
to risk their lives across the sea. They would do so if there were no | :58:35. | :58:39. | |
jobs or education for them. With the minister agree with me that it is | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
thanks to the UK Governmented aid contribution that we are able to | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
keep people well and safe in their own region rather than risking the | :58:48. | :58:56. | |
squalor any European cans? Goals he -- goals this is important why we | :58:57. | :59:03. | |
continue this work in the region. As well as the Government, and making | :59:04. | :59:07. | |
sure we do everything we can to help people in the region and deal with | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
the challenges at source, to avoid people taking not just that chance | :59:12. | :59:14. | |
to come to places that are not appropriate, but to take that | :59:15. | :59:16. | |
treacherous journey and give profit you should traffickers in the first | :59:17. | :59:25. | |
place. I am to be an unpaid director for the human trafficking | :59:26. | :59:29. | |
foundation, which will appear shortly register of members | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
interests. Can I just ask the minister of he would say to Tory | :59:33. | :59:37. | |
controlled Nottinghamshire County Council who on Monday suspended | :59:38. | :59:44. | |
support for unaccompanied children, despite having places available, | :59:45. | :59:46. | |
with one of the senior counsellor saying it is because these children | :59:47. | :59:51. | |
come here of the own collision? Is that not a disgrace and is it not | :59:52. | :59:54. | |
also a disgrace that they have turned round and blamed the | :59:55. | :59:59. | |
Government? Isn't it about time that the minister got his act together | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
with his Tory colleagues and stopped unaccompanied children fleeing war | :00:04. | :00:08. | |
and persecution from playing the consequences of what is this | :00:09. | :00:14. | |
disastrous Government policy? I congratulate the Honourable | :00:15. | :00:16. | |
gentleman in the role he is taking up and I look for to working with | :00:17. | :00:20. | |
him to make sure we will agreed to drive up the human trafficking | :00:21. | :00:27. | |
completely. In terms of a particular case, I learned many years ago that | :00:28. | :00:34. | |
I made pleased a Conservative to convert the county council, but I | :00:35. | :00:37. | |
did learn many years ago at his dispatch box to make sure that I | :00:38. | :00:41. | |
understand the full details of any particular case on both sides of the | :00:42. | :00:44. | |
story before I comment on it. I will look into it before I comment any | :00:45. | :00:51. | |
further what he has outlined. Contrary to the observation by the | :00:52. | :00:53. | |
Right Honourable gentleman opposite who said that these were hollow | :00:54. | :00:58. | |
words, it is a generous response by this Government and a typically | :00:59. | :01:04. | |
British response to this crisis. Could he confirm the number of | :01:05. | :01:08. | |
refugees that this currently is helping and compare that to other EU | :01:09. | :01:15. | |
states? Goals he makes a good point, if we look at this week alone with | :01:16. | :01:21. | |
the launch of funding we are taking out any support project. Seeing some | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
of the phenomenal work people have done in those communities, | :01:28. | :01:30. | |
developing and learning from our colleagues around the world, such as | :01:31. | :01:33. | |
Canada, and I appreciate the time the Canadian minister took to talk | :01:34. | :01:36. | |
about that. But last year alone we were the highest, took more than | :01:37. | :01:41. | |
anybody else in Europe, we should be proud of that. But we're clear we | :01:42. | :01:44. | |
wanted another that develop it and we should be proud of those 23,000 | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
people who reality to bring over to make sure we're helping the most | :01:49. | :01:52. | |
voluble, including thousands of children who have already come over | :01:53. | :01:53. | |
and those will continue to come. The minister will have on his desk | :01:54. | :02:08. | |
petitions from St Matthew's primary School and Moss Bank constituency, | :02:09. | :02:12. | |
asking to respect the rights of all EU children and in particular to | :02:13. | :02:16. | |
respect their right to an education, what assessment is he really making | :02:17. | :02:19. | |
of the quality and experience of education that children are getting | :02:20. | :02:22. | |
in camp? And isn't it time we brought children here to settle them | :02:23. | :02:26. | |
and ensure that they have the chance to develop a happy and successful | :02:27. | :02:32. | |
childhood? Well I think what the honourable lady is outline something | :02:33. | :02:34. | |
agreeing with the point I made earlier. The work we are doing is | :02:35. | :02:38. | |
with the local authorities to make sure when children come over they | :02:39. | :02:41. | |
are able to be given the right support and right home that they | :02:42. | :02:44. | |
deserve, to help them be an important part of the community to | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
give them at that fruitful and fulfilling life. Is the minister | :02:48. | :02:58. | |
aware that unaccompanied minors are congregating again in and around | :02:59. | :03:03. | |
Calais but without the camps being there, so even less resources, safe | :03:04. | :03:09. | |
passage for refugees are looking for a cross-party group of MPs to go | :03:10. | :03:12. | |
there perhaps next month. Perhaps the minister would like to go there | :03:13. | :03:17. | |
himself and explain what he and his French counterpart are doing to | :03:18. | :03:20. | |
ensure that children with rights under Dublin or Dubs are coming to | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
this country for safety, rather than being on the streets of Calais? | :03:26. | :03:29. | |
Well, I would say to the honourable gentleman, not only have I made with | :03:30. | :03:33. | |
Safe Passage myself and explained a different view what I saw in Calais | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
ten days ago and discussing this with thor authorities and operators | :03:38. | :03:40. | |
out there. -- with the authorities. ! What many of us don't understand | :03:41. | :03:46. | |
is why the Government chose to put a limit on the Dubs scheme based on a | :03:47. | :03:54. | |
rather half baked consultation with local authorities at one particular | :03:55. | :03:57. | |
time. Why doesn't the Government continue to engage with local | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
authorities and take proactive steps to increase their capacity to take | :04:01. | :04:02. | |
unaccompanied children, including implementing fully-funded places? | :04:03. | :04:05. | |
Well, I would just say to the honourable gentleman, I actually | :04:06. | :04:08. | |
make a couple of points in response, that's what the amendment itself and | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
legislation itself said we should do. I will come back to the point I | :04:12. | :04:16. | |
made a few times: It is important that when we bring people over, | :04:17. | :04:19. | |
families, people and obviously most importantly vulnerable children that | :04:20. | :04:22. | |
we are able to do that knowing that there is the facilities there and | :04:23. | :04:27. | |
capacity to give them the best start in life. I come back to the point I | :04:28. | :04:33. | |
made earlier. Yes people will want to play politics and some opposite, | :04:34. | :04:36. | |
play politics with numbers, the reality is there is a child behind | :04:37. | :04:40. | |
every number and we need to make sure if we are bringing children | :04:41. | :04:45. | |
over we should give them the best possible start. He should be proud | :04:46. | :04:49. | |
of the fag as I outlined to the Scottish minister that we have | :04:50. | :04:52. | |
already granted asylum or some other form of leave to over 8,000 children | :04:53. | :04:56. | |
already. Thank you, Mr Speaker, Europol have estimated that more | :04:57. | :05:01. | |
than 10,000 unaccompanied child refugees have disappeared in Europe | :05:02. | :05:04. | |
in the last two years, what steps are the Government taking to address | :05:05. | :05:10. | |
this and to support our EU partners in improving protection for | :05:11. | :05:12. | |
unaccompanied children at risk of trafficking or exploitation? Well, | :05:13. | :05:17. | |
there are two sides to this. Obviously first, making sure we do | :05:18. | :05:21. | |
not create a pull factor that encourages more children and people | :05:22. | :05:23. | |
and individuals to take a treacherous journey and at the same | :05:24. | :05:27. | |
time, simply helping the profits of traffickers that we all want to see, | :05:28. | :05:31. | |
hopefully, driven out but it is working with partners and the | :05:32. | :05:34. | |
National Crime Agency and their work with Europol to make sure we track | :05:35. | :05:38. | |
down and catch the people who create these kind of awful crimes. | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
Organisations like Refugee ee in Glasgow are doing a great teal Deal | :05:46. | :05:48. | |
to welcome asylum seekers and refugees to Glasgow but what can the | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
Government could do to ensure there's cad quite funding for local | :05:53. | :05:56. | |
authorities sow that those arriving with knowing can live a life with | :05:57. | :06:00. | |
dignity. I would say to the honourable lady, there is really | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
good work being done in glass ge. I met with the Scottish minute step | :06:05. | :06:09. | |
and had that conversation last week. We are seeing that work being done | :06:10. | :06:16. | |
by a local a number of slowingal authorities. It comes back to the | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
point I have made, we are working with local authorities to make sure | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
we have the capacity when people come over, so that the authorities | :06:25. | :06:28. | |
have the abilities it give them the right start in life and protection | :06:29. | :06:32. | |
and safety that they deserve. THE SPEAKER: Order, as the right | :06:33. | :06:35. | |
honourable member prepares to step down from the Leadership of his | :06:36. | :06:40. | |
party, I thank him, not only for his question today but for his, | :06:41. | :06:44. | |
unfailing courtesy and for his personal support for the Chair over | :06:45. | :06:48. | |
a very long period for which I have reason to be very grateful. Geoff | :06:49. | :06:56. | |
Hoon point of order Mr Speaker, you will know on page 448 of etch | :06:57. | :07:07. | |
rskine, May it says it is not in order to refer to people in the | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
galleries. It goes is back to an old proposition but in our time it has | :07:14. | :07:17. | |
been strictly enforced but in recent years, lots of people refer to | :07:18. | :07:23. | |
people in the galry. I thought it was particularly nice when my | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
honourable friend for Battersea the other day referred to her mother in | :07:28. | :07:30. | |
the gallery and paid tribute to her in the maiden speech and the Prime | :07:31. | :07:35. | |
Minister referred to people in the gallery and sometimes we refer to | :07:36. | :07:40. | |
international guests, isn't it time, now we completely and utterly got | :07:41. | :07:43. | |
rid of this rather silly, old-fashioned rule? The honourable | :07:44. | :07:45. | |
gentleman is not for the first time spot on. The prohibition on | :07:46. | :07:47. | |
reference to those attending our proceedings, let me say it capedly | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
no longer applies, it dates back to a time when the act of noticing such | :07:52. | :07:56. | |
attendance led to the galleries being cleared since public | :07:57. | :07:59. | |
attendance was not, in formal terms, allowed for at all. For some time I | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
have not sought to enforce the rule, nor to the best of my knowledge and | :08:05. | :08:10. | |
understanding has it been enforced in Westminster Hall. I hope that | :08:11. | :08:14. | |
members are adapting gently to this new regime. Reference to visitors | :08:15. | :08:20. | |
must be brief and, importantly, directly related to proceedings. And | :08:21. | :08:25. | |
such references should not be phrased so as to be in anyway | :08:26. | :08:31. | |
intimidating or to seek to influence debate. I hope that that is helpful. | :08:32. | :08:39. | |
The House's guidance, including Erskine May, will be, gradually, | :08:40. | :08:42. | |
updated, to reflect this change. I hope that is helpful. Can I just say | :08:43. | :08:48. | |
to the House, I know there are other members who have a desire it raise | :08:49. | :08:53. | |
points of order. I would rather not take further points of order now. We | :08:54. | :08:58. | |
ordinarily take points of order after statements. And I see no good | :08:59. | :09:01. | |
reason to change that practice today. I took this particular point | :09:02. | :09:07. | |
of order because I thought it best that I should be here in the Chair, | :09:08. | :09:11. | |
and the honourable gentleman was here, I'm about to leave and the | :09:12. | :09:17. | |
Chairman of Ways science a means will chair the pensions statement, | :09:18. | :09:20. | |
towards the end of which I will return and members who are poised | :09:21. | :09:25. | |
and perched ready to raise their points of order on other matters can | :09:26. | :09:32. | |
do so at that time. Order. We come now to a statement by the Secretary | :09:33. | :09:42. | |
of State for Work and Pensions, Secretary, David Gauk. With | :09:43. | :09:44. | |
permission, Mr Deputy Speaker, I would like to make a statement on | :09:45. | :09:50. | |
pensions. Last year, the Government commissioned the Government be a | :09:51. | :09:54. | |
tour rain John Cridland CBE to produce independent reports to | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
inform the first review of the state pension age required under the 2014 | :09:59. | :10:03. | |
Pensions Act. I'm grateful to Mr Cridland for his contribution in | :10:04. | :10:06. | |
producing a thorough and comprehensive review. Over the | :10:07. | :10:08. | |
course of his review, evidence was put forward by a wide range of | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
people and organisations, and I'm grateful to everyone who took the | :10:15. | :10:19. | |
time to engage. Today I am publishing the Government's report | :10:20. | :10:23. | |
on this ro review. Mr Deputy Speaker, on this review. Mr Deputy | :10:24. | :10:26. | |
Speaker, this Government is determined to deliver dignity and | :10:27. | :10:30. | |
fairness in retirement, fairness across the generations and the | :10:31. | :10:32. | |
certainty on which people need it plan for old age. In the report I'm | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
setting out how we will achieve these things. As part of this | :10:38. | :10:43. | |
publication we have set out a coherent strategy targeted at | :10:44. | :10:46. | |
strengthening and sustaining the UK's pension system for many decades | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
to could. This is about the Government taking responsibility | :10:51. | :10:52. | |
action in response to growing demographic and fiscal pressures. | :10:53. | :10:55. | |
That is why today I am announcing the Government's intention to accept | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
the key recommendation of the Cridland Review and increase the | :11:00. | :11:05. | |
state pension age from 67 to 68, over two years, from 2037. | :11:06. | :11:14. | |
This brings forward the increase by seven years, from its legislated | :11:15. | :11:19. | |
date of 2024-46 in recommendation made by John Cridland and following | :11:20. | :11:23. | |
careful consideration on the evidence of life expectancy, | :11:24. | :11:27. | |
fairness and public finances. In 1948, Mr Deputy Speaker, when the | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
modern state pension was introduced, a 65-year-old could expect to live | :11:32. | :11:37. | |
for a further 13-and-a-half years. By 2007, bhen further legislation | :11:38. | :11:42. | |
was introduced to increase the state pension age this had risen to around | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
21 years and in 2037 it is expected to be nearly 25 years. As the | :11:48. | :11:54. | |
Cridland review makes clear, the increase in life expectancy are to | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
be celebrated and I want it make clear that even under the timetable | :12:00. | :12:04. | |
for the riets I'm announcing today. Future pensioners can still expect | :12:05. | :12:08. | |
to spend on average, more than 22 years in receipt of the state | :12:09. | :12:11. | |
pension. But increasing longevity also presents challenges to the | :12:12. | :12:13. | |
Government. There is a balance to be struck between funding of the state | :12:14. | :12:17. | |
pension in years to come, whilst also ensuring fairness for future | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
generations of tax payers. The approach I'm setting out today is | :12:23. | :12:26. | |
the responsible and fair course of action. Failing to act now, in light | :12:27. | :12:30. | |
of compelling evidence of demographic pressures would be | :12:31. | :12:33. | |
irresponsible and place an extremely unfair burden on younger | :12:34. | :12:37. | |
generations. While an ageing population means state pension | :12:38. | :12:40. | |
spending will rise under any of the possible time tables we have | :12:41. | :12:43. | |
considered, the action we are taking reduces this rise by 0.4% of GDP, in | :12:44. | :12:52. | |
2039-40. This is equivalent to a saving of prned ?400 per household | :12:53. | :12:56. | |
based on the number of households today. Our proposed timetable will | :12:57. | :13:03. | |
save ?74 billion to 2045-46 when compared to current plans and more | :13:04. | :13:10. | |
than ?250 billion to 2045-46 when compared with capping the rise in | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
state pension age at of 66 in 2020, as the party opposite haved a | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
vericated. It is the duty of -- advocated. It is the duty of the | :13:22. | :13:25. | |
Government to keep the state pension age sustainal and maintain fairness | :13:26. | :13:29. | |
between generations. That's why the Government is aiming for the | :13:30. | :13:33. | |
proportion of adult life spent in receipt of state pension to be up to | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
32%. This is a fair deal for current and future pensioners. We will carry | :13:40. | :13:43. | |
out a further review before legislating to bring forward the | :13:44. | :13:48. | |
rise in state pension age in to 68, to take into consideration the | :13:49. | :13:55. | |
latest life expecty projection and allow tow evaluate the rises in | :13:56. | :13:59. | |
state pension ages under way. This Government has a proven track | :14:00. | :14:03. | |
recorded on helping people plan for retirement, alongside our automatic | :14:04. | :14:06. | |
inrollment scheme that has brought the benefit of private pensions to | :14:07. | :14:09. | |
nearly 10 million since its inception. We have also set out | :14:10. | :14:20. | |
plans to enhance the availability of consumer vice and the pensions | :14:21. | :14:23. | |
dashboard. Today people have a much better idea of what their pension | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
will be, bringing more certainty and clarity and this is something the | :14:28. | :14:31. | |
Government will build on, making it easier for people it seek advice and | :14:32. | :14:34. | |
making effective financial decisions. | :14:35. | :14:44. | |
We need to ensure that the costs of an ageing population a shared out | :14:45. | :14:52. | |
finally -- fairly without placing an fair tax burden on future | :14:53. | :14:55. | |
generations. We need to make responsible choices on the state | :14:56. | :14:58. | |
pension age and that is exactly what the government is doing today. I | :14:59. | :15:08. | |
thank the Secretary of State for the statement and having sight of that | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
30 minutes ago. Yesterday a renowned expert on life expectancy has | :15:15. | :15:20. | |
described how a century long rise in life expectancy has ground to a halt | :15:21. | :15:26. | |
since 2010. When the government began its failing austerity | :15:27. | :15:30. | |
programme. We have seen how deep inequalities and healthy life | :15:31. | :15:32. | |
expectancy remained regionally and between different groups in our | :15:33. | :15:37. | |
society, including women, disabled people and black and minority ethnic | :15:38. | :15:43. | |
groups. It is astonishing that today the government chooses to implement | :15:44. | :15:46. | |
its plans to speed up the state pension age and increase it to 68. | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
Most pensioners will now spend their retirement battling a toxic cocktail | :15:53. | :15:59. | |
of ill-health, with men expecting to drift into ill-health at 63, five | :16:00. | :16:05. | |
years earlier than this proposed quickened state pension age of 68, | :16:06. | :16:10. | |
while women expect to see signs of ill-health that 64. This national | :16:11. | :16:15. | |
picture masks even worse regional inequalities. If you live in | :16:16. | :16:21. | |
Nottingham men are likely to suffer in health from 57, in 11 years | :16:22. | :16:25. | |
earlier than this government shortened plan. The government talks | :16:26. | :16:31. | |
about making pensions fairer but whether it is the injustice that | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
1950s born women are facing today's proposal to increase the SB8 268 is | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
anything but fair. The government claims it is young people who have | :16:41. | :16:44. | |
to bear the burden of the state pension, in fact it is the young | :16:45. | :16:47. | |
people who will have to bear the burden of the CAP that they are | :16:48. | :16:54. | |
facing already, education, housing, social security, and less extensions | :16:55. | :16:58. | |
to the state pension age. Sadly, like much of the policy platform, | :16:59. | :17:02. | |
the conservative approach to this matter appears to have changed | :17:03. | :17:13. | |
little since their election manifesto. At that time they | :17:14. | :17:15. | |
promised to ensure the state pension age reflects increases in the life | :17:16. | :17:17. | |
expectancy, while protecting generations fairly. How does this | :17:18. | :17:19. | |
make the promise made in the manifesto given the evidence of life | :17:20. | :17:22. | |
expectancy that we have seen in the last week. The DUP had a manifesto | :17:23. | :17:32. | |
that promised advocating for older people. Perhaps, like the pensions | :17:33. | :17:36. | |
minister astonishingly suggested in the debate earlier this month, the | :17:37. | :17:40. | |
government will force people in their mid-60s to seek out an | :17:41. | :17:45. | |
apprenticeship. A constituent of mine, hearing the suggestion, | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
visited our local job centre only to find the adviser had no idea of any | :17:50. | :17:54. | |
apprenticeship support or government employment support available to a | :17:55. | :17:58. | |
woman of her age. The pensions minister proposition was not one | :17:59. | :18:03. | |
shared by Mr Crichlow and who suggested the Social Security system | :18:04. | :18:05. | |
must be able to support those who find themselves unable to work. | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
Perhaps it was unaware of the seven years of slash and burn policy on | :18:11. | :18:14. | |
our social security system, the so-called safety net is increasingly | :18:15. | :18:20. | |
inadequate, driving up pensioner poverty by 300,000. Labour want a | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
different approach. In our manifesto we have committed to leaving the | :18:24. | :18:29. | |
state pension age at 66 while we undertake a review into healthy life | :18:30. | :18:34. | |
expectancy, arduous work, and the potential of a flexible state | :18:35. | :18:38. | |
pension age. An evidence -based approach to build a state pension | :18:39. | :18:41. | |
system that brings security for the many and not just the privileged | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
few, so we can all enjoy a healthy retirement. Even by the standards of | :18:46. | :18:56. | |
the party opposite their approach to the state pension age is reckless, | :18:57. | :19:03. | |
short-sighted and irresponsible. When the evidence in front of us | :19:04. | :19:08. | |
shows that life expectancy will continue to increase a little over | :19:09. | :19:13. | |
one year every eight years that pass, fixing the state pension age | :19:14. | :19:21. | |
at 66 adds advocated by the party opposite demonstrates a complete | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
failure to appreciate the situation in front of us. Compared to the | :19:26. | :19:30. | |
timetable set out by this government, it will add ?250 billion | :19:31. | :19:36. | |
to national debt. Let us put that in context. That is almost twice as | :19:37. | :19:43. | |
much as was dispersed into the financial sector following the | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
financial crisis. Let us put it another way. Spending in 2040 under | :19:48. | :19:53. | |
their plans on the state pension would be ?20 billion a year higher | :19:54. | :19:58. | |
than under the plans we are setting up. That is almost twice the Home | :19:59. | :20:02. | |
Office budget. Where on earth is this money coming from? Even the | :20:03. | :20:14. | |
last... Order. In fairness, I want to hear both sides in order to make | :20:15. | :20:17. | |
a judgment but I am finding it very hard to hear the Minister. It is, in | :20:18. | :20:22. | |
fairness, reply to the Shadow Minister, so I think we should all | :20:23. | :20:26. | |
be able to hear the answer. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, even under | :20:27. | :20:30. | |
the last Labour government, not known for its fiscal rectitude, they | :20:31. | :20:33. | |
legislated to increase the state pension age to 68, and yet, on top | :20:34. | :20:39. | |
of a long list of unaffordable spending pledges, the Labour Party | :20:40. | :20:44. | |
happily makes pledges on the state pension that they must know will | :20:45. | :20:49. | |
cause unsustainable damage to the public finances. The facts are, | :20:50. | :20:53. | |
based on the most up-to-date evidence, and clearly set out in the | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
government actuary 's report as well as this report, life expectancy is | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
going up. Healthy life expectancy at the age of 65 is also going up and | :21:04. | :21:10. | |
the government has to face up to this long-term challenge not pretend | :21:11. | :21:16. | |
that it doesn't exist. We should celebrate increased life expectancy, | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
but it has consequences for fiscal sustainability that cannot be | :21:22. | :21:25. | |
ignored. The John Cridland review is a serious piece of work with a clear | :21:26. | :21:30. | |
recommendation in terms of the pension age. In contrast to the | :21:31. | :21:35. | |
party opposite we will act responsibly and accept that | :21:36. | :21:41. | |
recommendation. Iain Duncan Smith. I commend this statement. It used to | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
be the case that the Labour Party worked on a consensual basis on the | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
facts, and they now have departed from that. He is aware that we have | :21:51. | :21:56. | |
a proud track record in reform, automatic enrolment, the single | :21:57. | :22:00. | |
tier, we got rid of the retirement age where people were forced to | :22:01. | :22:03. | |
retire when they did not want to, so it is a side that has a proud | :22:04. | :22:07. | |
record. Can I say to him that the single figure that stands out | :22:08. | :22:11. | |
starkly from this review is the fact that if we do nothing about this it | :22:12. | :22:16. | |
will cost ?250 billion more. That is not just a figure, it is a figure | :22:17. | :22:22. | |
that will be borne by future generations as they have to pay | :22:23. | :22:27. | |
excessive money is. Considering that the Labour Party at the last | :22:28. | :22:31. | |
election promise to get rid of the student debt, and now renege on | :22:32. | :22:34. | |
that, doesn't he think they will be doing the same very shortly on this | :22:35. | :22:40. | |
one? I thank my right honourable friend for his question. He makes a | :22:41. | :22:43. | |
very good point about the work that this government has done over the | :22:44. | :22:47. | |
last seven years in terms of Fallot working lives and helping more | :22:48. | :22:52. | |
people to work longer. My right honourable friend has a proud | :22:53. | :22:55. | |
personal record in what he did as secretary of state on that point. He | :22:56. | :23:01. | |
is absolutely right to highlight the responsibility of the position that | :23:02. | :23:06. | |
the Labour Party had at the last election, just as they have walked | :23:07. | :23:09. | |
away from a deeply irresponsible issue on student debt, I hope they | :23:10. | :23:13. | |
will walk away from a deeply irresponsible position on the state | :23:14. | :23:19. | |
pension age. I would like to thank the Minister for the statement. I | :23:20. | :23:24. | |
can see why the Department for Work and Pensions did not want to publish | :23:25. | :23:28. | |
this by the legal data was supposed to buy made the seventh because this | :23:29. | :23:32. | |
would undoubtedly have lost the Conservatives even more seats than | :23:33. | :23:37. | |
the ones they have lost already. In the SNP we oppose plans to raise the | :23:38. | :23:42. | |
state pension age above 66. We also have concerns about the fact that | :23:43. | :23:46. | |
the government have chosen the 32%, rather than the 33.3%, which was the | :23:47. | :23:52. | |
more gentle scenario presented within the Cridland review. I am | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
lucky enough to be a few days inside the 69 group, so we get to retire at | :23:58. | :24:07. | |
69 rather than 70, which will happen if the full extent of this review is | :24:08. | :24:12. | |
covered. We continue to call for the establishment of independent savings | :24:13. | :24:15. | |
and pension commission. We believe that the government is not doing | :24:16. | :24:19. | |
enough to recognise the demographic differences across the United | :24:20. | :24:21. | |
Kingdom and an independent review of this would look at those and would | :24:22. | :24:29. | |
take those into full account. Well, of course John Cridland looked at | :24:30. | :24:32. | |
exactly those issues and he concluded that the dive urgent | :24:33. | :24:39. | |
within regions and nations was no greater than, was greater than that | :24:40. | :24:47. | |
between the different nations and regions of this matter. I would make | :24:48. | :24:54. | |
the point to the honourable member that if the Scottish Government | :24:55. | :24:58. | |
believes that there should be more support from the state for those | :24:59. | :25:02. | |
approaching retirement age, they will have the powers in which to do | :25:03. | :25:07. | |
that so if they wish to provide that support in Scotland, effectively | :25:08. | :25:14. | |
providing support a year or two years earlier that applies to the | :25:15. | :25:17. | |
rest of the United Kingdom, the Scottish Government has the power to | :25:18. | :25:20. | |
do that. I wouldn't particularly advise them to do it but it is their | :25:21. | :25:24. | |
decision and I really don't think that there is a complaint to be | :25:25. | :25:27. | |
raced with the UK Government on that front. Can I commend my right | :25:28. | :25:34. | |
honourable friend on his statement and say he is right to be tackling | :25:35. | :25:38. | |
the issues of intergenerational fairness. Retirement is not just | :25:39. | :25:41. | |
about the state alone. Can he say what other measures, alongside this | :25:42. | :25:47. | |
amendment he is going to propose to ensure that young people can say for | :25:48. | :25:52. | |
their retirement alongside the state provision? One thing I would | :25:53. | :25:55. | |
highlight, as our member for Chingford did a moment ago, is what | :25:56. | :26:00. | |
we have done in terms of auto enrolment, and that means 10 million | :26:01. | :26:04. | |
more people saving for a retirement. It is a huge step forward and I am | :26:05. | :26:08. | |
delighted with the success of the auto enrolment and the very low tout | :26:09. | :26:12. | |
rates. It is one example of how the government is ensuring that people | :26:13. | :26:16. | |
will have a dignified retirement. We have got to remember that the public | :26:17. | :26:19. | |
finances need to be in order as well. Bearing in mind regional | :26:20. | :26:27. | |
health inequalities, I wondered what particular steps the government were | :26:28. | :26:31. | |
going to introduce in terms of Social Security to support those who | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
will not be able to work until this later age? It is the case that there | :26:37. | :26:42. | |
-- that as a country with them very large sums of money, something like | :26:43. | :26:49. | |
?50 billion a year, in support of people receiving support for health | :26:50. | :26:52. | |
and disability issues and we will obviously continue to do that. That | :26:53. | :26:55. | |
is the best way of supporting people who have got health difficulties, | :26:56. | :27:03. | |
rather than having a lower state pension age, which would be | :27:04. | :27:10. | |
unaffordable. I thank the Secretary of State, perhaps was not too much | :27:11. | :27:14. | |
enthusiasm, for delaying my retirement by a year. I am exactly | :27:15. | :27:17. | |
the range of people whose retirement has been delayed. What plans does he | :27:18. | :27:21. | |
had to learn from issues with previous races in the retirement | :27:22. | :27:26. | |
rate in communicating with people who will be affected that this | :27:27. | :27:30. | |
change is happening to them? First of all, the longer we can delay my | :27:31. | :27:33. | |
honourable friend 's retirement, the better. In terms of communication | :27:34. | :27:45. | |
with those affected, of course, we are essentially giving something | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
like 20 years notice today, but as we legislate for this matter in due | :27:50. | :27:57. | |
course then of course it will be necessary to properly communicate | :27:58. | :28:05. | |
with those who will be affected. It will be properly, properly, it is | :28:06. | :28:09. | |
proper that we communicate with those and we will be doing so. I am | :28:10. | :28:17. | |
very grateful. Would the secretary of state be able to tell us what | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
steps his department is taking to ensure that older people will not be | :28:22. | :28:27. | |
subjected to his government 's punitive sanctions regime? Well, I | :28:28. | :28:32. | |
make the point that in terms of the sanctions regime, actually the | :28:33. | :28:35. | |
number of sanctions are down by around about a half in the course of | :28:36. | :28:38. | |
the last year. We have a welfare system that has at its heart a | :28:39. | :28:45. | |
principle of conditionality for many of the benefits that are there and | :28:46. | :28:49. | |
in order to enforce conditions it is necessary to have a sanctions | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
regime, but, as I say, the vast, vast majority, something like 98% of | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
benefit claimants are not sanctioned. | :28:58. | :29:01. | |
With respect to the statement, my right honourable friend will be | :29:02. | :29:08. | |
aware that when Her Majesty the Queen came to the throne in 1952, | :29:09. | :29:12. | |
there were 300 people in that year who reached the age of 100. Last | :29:13. | :29:19. | |
year it was over 13,000. Will he expressed surprise that I feel at | :29:20. | :29:22. | |
the responsibility and recklessness of the party opposite in resisting | :29:23. | :29:29. | |
some of these suggestions? I don't know that I'm surprised but it is | :29:30. | :29:36. | |
disappointing. The reality is that we have an ageing population, just | :29:37. | :29:43. | |
as every similar type of country does, and we all have to respond to | :29:44. | :29:48. | |
the facts, and the facts are that as the population ages, as like -- as | :29:49. | :29:57. | |
life expectancy improves, and indeed healthy life expectancy, it is right | :29:58. | :30:01. | |
for the pension age to reflect that. To deny that is just annoying | :30:02. | :30:06. | |
common-sense. I had hoped the minister was coming here today | :30:07. | :30:09. | |
because he had seen the light. He had realised that the women from the | :30:10. | :30:14. | |
1950s are being dealt a terrible set of cards by this Government. That he | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
was going to compensate them, that he was going to make good on the | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
injustice that has been done to them, that he was going to make sure | :30:23. | :30:25. | |
that every single person that wasn't even notified by the government that | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
they would be caught by this would be compensated, and that he was | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
going to finally acknowledge that women in my constituency who are in | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
their 60s, who say to me they are completely clapped-out because they | :30:40. | :30:42. | |
have had the Boreas jobs or their lives, that they are the very people | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
that his minister says should now take up an apprenticeship! -- have | :30:49. | :30:56. | |
had difficult jobs. I'm not sure I would want to call my constituents | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
clapped-out but there you go! The position when it comes to those born | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
in the 1950s, just as with this announcement in the 1970s, we have | :31:09. | :31:15. | |
to balance out the needs and the desire to provide a dignified | :31:16. | :31:18. | |
retirement with the fact that state pensions have to be paid for and it | :31:19. | :31:26. | |
is unfair on tax payers if we don't have a state pension age that | :31:27. | :31:29. | |
reflects life expectancy. That is all we are saying and that seems to | :31:30. | :31:35. | |
me to be something that is very hard to argue against. The Secretary of | :31:36. | :31:42. | |
State is absolutely right to go ahead with the report's main | :31:43. | :31:45. | |
recommendation, which critically gives advance notice of more than 20 | :31:46. | :31:52. | |
years to those who will be affected, and thereby distinguishes this | :31:53. | :31:55. | |
Government's record from that of the previous Labour government, who | :31:56. | :32:01. | |
failed to communicate adequately the changes. Can he confirmed there will | :32:02. | :32:05. | |
be a comprehensive communication programme to make sure everybody | :32:06. | :32:10. | |
does know in advance? And secondly, whether the Government is also | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
accepting the report's other recommendations on means tested | :32:15. | :32:19. | |
benefits, working past state pension age and the review? In terms of the | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
other recommendations, we are looking very carefully at those | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
proposals. Obviously there are issues that have an impact across | :32:30. | :32:34. | |
government. But we think it is right to move swiftly in terms of the key | :32:35. | :32:39. | |
recommendation, which is the state pension age, in order to give people | :32:40. | :32:44. | |
as much advance notice as possible. But my honourable friend makes a | :32:45. | :32:48. | |
good point about the communication process and so on. That is something | :32:49. | :32:52. | |
that will need to be determined nearer the time. We are 20 years | :32:53. | :32:55. | |
away from the point at which this takes effect. But we are determined | :32:56. | :33:01. | |
to insure that this is brought to the attention of all of those of us | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
affected. -- to make sure that this is brought to the attention. On the | :33:07. | :33:17. | |
issue of the Waspy women... Some of them weren't even notified of the | :33:18. | :33:23. | |
changes. Someone notified late, someone notified after it happened, | :33:24. | :33:26. | |
some received no notification at all. It is about time the Government | :33:27. | :33:37. | |
came up with an answer for this. Something like 5 million letters | :33:38. | :33:45. | |
were sent out with the addresses the Government had, and the changes made | :33:46. | :33:50. | |
in the 1995 Act were many, many years in advance of when they took | :33:51. | :33:54. | |
effect, and I would make the point of those women born in the 1950s - | :33:55. | :34:00. | |
none of them had their state pension age put back by more than 18 months | :34:01. | :34:09. | |
by the 2011 Act. Demographic pressures felt acutely across East | :34:10. | :34:16. | |
Sussex, where we have the most 85-year-olds, many of those in my | :34:17. | :34:21. | |
constituency. Can my right honourable friend confirmed that | :34:22. | :34:24. | |
looking ahead, people, including those living in my constituency, can | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
expect to receive more state pension over their lifetime than generations | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
before? That is absolutely right, and if we look ahead, every | :34:35. | :34:41. | |
generation will spend more years on average receiving a state pension | :34:42. | :34:46. | |
than the previous generation. That is a very good thing but it is right | :34:47. | :34:52. | |
that we get that balance right, and what happens if governments don't | :34:53. | :34:58. | |
address this issue is that you end up with a crisis, you end up having | :34:59. | :35:03. | |
to move quickly, and you end up with sharp increases in the state pension | :35:04. | :35:06. | |
age, and that is what we are avoiding by the responsible approach | :35:07. | :35:12. | |
we are taking today. I am the father of three young daughters and the ONS | :35:13. | :35:18. | |
statistics say one of them will live to be 100, and by the time they | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
retire, there will only be two workers in this country for every | :35:24. | :35:26. | |
retired person, so would he agree with me that it is blindingly | :35:27. | :35:31. | |
obvious we need to take the steps he has outlined today? It shouldn't be | :35:32. | :35:35. | |
a cause of regret, it should be a cause of celebration that our | :35:36. | :35:37. | |
children and grandchildren are going to live to such a grand old age, and | :35:38. | :35:43. | |
it should be on a cross-party basis just as any responsible actions of a | :35:44. | :35:49. | |
government should be taken. It is a cause of celebration that life | :35:50. | :35:53. | |
expectancy is improving, he puts it well. But along with changes in life | :35:54. | :35:57. | |
expectancy, inevitably, there are changes in the state pension age, | :35:58. | :36:01. | |
and that's what the change today demonstrates. Does the Secretary of | :36:02. | :36:11. | |
State agree that thanks to the financial responsibilities shown | :36:12. | :36:13. | |
hitherto, we've managed to increase the state pension is quite | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
generously in the last few years by ?1250 a year, and that's why | :36:19. | :36:26. | |
pensioner poverty has gone down? He's absolutely right, but in order | :36:27. | :36:30. | |
to do that, we need to take responsible decisions on public | :36:31. | :36:33. | |
finance as a whole, including on the state pension age, and that's what | :36:34. | :36:37. | |
we're going to do even if we don't get the support of the party | :36:38. | :36:44. | |
opposite. As somebody who had their state pension age increased to 68 | :36:45. | :36:47. | |
with everyone slightly older than me and younger than me back in 2007, I | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
listen to encourage -- I listen with incredulity to some of the comments | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
this afternoon. This isn't just a challenge unique to the UK. It is a | :37:00. | :37:07. | |
challenge faced by other countries. He is absolutely right. We are | :37:08. | :37:11. | |
seeing increases to the pension age in the Netherlands, the Republic of | :37:12. | :37:19. | |
Ireland. It is what responsible parties do. Unfortunately we only | :37:20. | :37:22. | |
have one responsible party in this country. I pay tribute to the | :37:23. | :37:30. | |
report, in part because the writer of it went to my grammar school! | :37:31. | :37:37. | |
Would he agree that it is by taking a responsible brave decisions and | :37:38. | :37:40. | |
having a review like this that we avoid the situation that countries | :37:41. | :37:45. | |
like Italy find themselves in, where you have to increase the pension age | :37:46. | :37:50. | |
by four and a half years in one go? It is the responsible and fair thing | :37:51. | :37:55. | |
to do. He is absolutely right, and if we could have -- and we could | :37:56. | :38:02. | |
have put this off and kicked it into the long grass, but it is important | :38:03. | :38:05. | |
for the future of this country that we have a government prepared to | :38:06. | :38:11. | |
take those long-term decisions, securing intergenerational fairness | :38:12. | :38:14. | |
and ensuring we provide more certainty to pensioners that there | :38:15. | :38:17. | |
won't be the need for those sudden changes that might have been seen | :38:18. | :38:31. | |
elsewhere. Order. I have thought the honourable gentleman wished to raise | :38:32. | :38:34. | |
a point of order and it turns out that, on prompting, he does. The | :38:35. | :38:40. | |
order paper for yesterday said that the debate on drugs would continue | :38:41. | :38:48. | |
till seven o'clock. The final speaker sat down four minutes early | :38:49. | :38:55. | |
and the normal practice in this House is to use that space for other | :38:56. | :39:00. | |
speakers to contribute. It was particularly interesting that the | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
final speaker had denied interventions on the grounds that | :39:04. | :39:05. | |
she didn't have enough time to finish. Standing orders is not clear | :39:06. | :39:13. | |
on this point. Isn't it right that we get some definition of past | :39:14. | :39:17. | |
practice, where when the speaker has run out of speeches early or didn't | :39:18. | :39:24. | |
have anything else left to say, that other members can contribute to what | :39:25. | :39:29. | |
would be a full debate? Ungrateful to the honourable gentleman for his | :39:30. | :39:34. | |
point of order. -- I am grateful to the honourable gentleman. He deftly | :39:35. | :39:42. | |
sunken -- he gave me some indication early on that he would raise it. As | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
evidenced by the well thumped home on how to be a backbencher, of which | :39:51. | :39:56. | |
he is the author, I am slightly to quibble with him on his proposition | :39:57. | :40:03. | |
that it is normal or commonplace if the ministerial wind-up concludes | :40:04. | :40:07. | |
early for other members to be invited to contribute. In my | :40:08. | :40:12. | |
experience, that is not commonplace. I wouldn't say it never happens | :40:13. | :40:18. | |
because... You can almost always find an example of something if you | :40:19. | :40:21. | |
try hard enough. But certainly when I am in the chair, I tend to work on | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
the assumption that the ministerial wind-up is indeed the conclusion of | :40:28. | :40:34. | |
the debate. I note what he says about that conclusion taking place | :40:35. | :40:39. | |
earlier than listed on the order paper, although I'm sure he will | :40:40. | :40:43. | |
readily accept that the official report, that is to say the verbatim | :40:44. | :40:51. | |
account of what was said, will show, there's no question of misleading, | :40:52. | :40:55. | |
it will show that the debate concluded a little early, and the | :40:56. | :40:58. | |
chair does not normally allow a further backbench speech. This is | :40:59. | :41:03. | |
not directed at the honourable gentleman, it is just a wider point. | :41:04. | :41:08. | |
Certainly not from a member who had already made a substantial speech in | :41:09. | :41:15. | |
the debate. As for interventions, as the author of how to be a member of | :41:16. | :41:20. | |
Parliament, available in all good book shops! I've read it, it's very | :41:21. | :41:31. | |
good! And as I am myself a noted admirer of it, you will note that a | :41:32. | :41:34. | |
member is free to take interventions. It is not something | :41:35. | :41:41. | |
upon which the chair can rule if a minister says they do not have time. | :41:42. | :41:49. | |
Ministers can be a tad erotic in these matters as can shadow | :41:50. | :41:59. | |
ministers. The situation, though, is as I have described. Can I take this | :42:00. | :42:03. | |
in a positive spirit to encourage all new members, though I'm not sure | :42:04. | :42:06. | |
the whips would agree, I would encourage all new members to read | :42:07. | :42:11. | |
the honourable gentleman's books on being a good parliamentarian. No, | :42:12. | :42:16. | |
says a government whip from a sedentary position, in evident | :42:17. | :42:21. | |
horror at what bad habits new members of the flock might pick up! | :42:22. | :42:28. | |
I think they are fine books and he has used his position as a backbench | :42:29. | :42:32. | |
member to stand up for his constituents and to fight for the | :42:33. | :42:37. | |
principles in which he believes, and that has sometimes pleased his party | :42:38. | :42:40. | |
and sometimes it hasn't, but that's what we're supposed to get here, | :42:41. | :42:45. | |
members of Parliament to speak to their principles and consciences, | :42:46. | :42:49. | |
and that's a good thing, and the speaker, as he knows, likes to | :42:50. | :42:53. | |
encourage that. When I was a backbencher I had a relationship | :42:54. | :42:56. | |
with my whips characterised by trust and understanding. I didn't trust | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
them and they didn't understand me! LAUGHTER | :43:02. | :43:11. | |
Point of order. Yesterday, finally the Department of Health for | :43:12. | :43:13. | |
accounts were later this House after a week of tattooing and throwing | :43:14. | :43:18. | |
which prompted no actual changes to the standard of counts. -- tooling | :43:19. | :43:27. | |
and throwing. I would seek guidance on two points. The first being that | :43:28. | :43:32. | |
they sat only a couple of days before. And secondly what we can do | :43:33. | :43:37. | |
to insure a minister turned up to this House to explain the accounts | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
and all the financial concerns many of this House have about the | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
Government's handling of health finances. She has put her concern on | :43:46. | :43:52. | |
the record, it will have been heard on the Treasury bench, and I suspect | :43:53. | :43:56. | |
the contents will make their way to health ministers in time. The truth | :43:57. | :44:03. | |
of the matter is that there is no resolution of her grievance | :44:04. | :44:05. | |
available from the chair. Realistic that will have to wait | :44:06. | :44:35. | |
until December but if the honourable lady is in her place tomorrow for | :44:36. | :44:40. | |
the summer adjournment debate, and wishes to XP shade further on her | :44:41. | :44:45. | |
concerns, she may well find she is able to catch the eye of the chair. | :44:46. | :44:51. | |
If there are no further points of order, and I think that there are | :44:52. | :44:57. | |
not, we come now to the presentation of bills. Presentation of Bill, | :44:58. | :45:07. | |
Chris Bryant. Assaults on emergency workers offences Bill. Second | :45:08. | :45:11. | |
reading, what data is Mike Friday 20th of October. Two. Mr Steve Reed. | :45:12. | :45:25. | |
Mental health units. Friday third November. Parliamentary | :45:26. | :45:36. | |
constituencies Amendment Bill. Second reading, what day? Friday | :45:37. | :45:49. | |
third is September. Homes, fitness for human habitation. Friday 19th of | :45:50. | :45:57. | |
January. Splendid day, it's my birthday. Civil partnerships, | :45:58. | :46:06. | |
marriages and deaths registration bill. Second reading, what day? | :46:07. | :46:16. | |
Never! Friday 2nd of February 20 18. Thank you. Organ donation, deemed | :46:17. | :46:26. | |
consent bill. Second reading, what day? Friday 23rd of February, 2018. | :46:27. | :46:34. | |
Thank you. Refugees, Family Reunion bills. | :46:35. | :46:50. | |
Second reading, what day? . Friday 26th of March, 2018. Parental | :46:51. | :47:01. | |
beliefs meant, leave and pay bill. Second reading, what day? Thank you. | :47:02. | :47:15. | |
Representation of the People Act, young People's enfranchisement and | :47:16. | :47:20. | |
education bill. Second reading, what day? Friday third November. Overseas | :47:21. | :47:32. | |
electors bill. Second reading, what day? Debris 23rd, 2018. Parking code | :47:33. | :47:46. | |
of practice bill. Second reading, what day?. Friday second February, | :47:47. | :47:54. | |
2018. Perhaps because his bill relates to parking the nation should | :47:55. | :47:57. | |
be aware that the right Honourable gentleman is sporting a notably | :47:58. | :48:01. | |
colourful tie which features a very large number of cars, and knowing | :48:02. | :48:05. | |
the right honourable gentleman 's penchant I assume they are, in fact, | :48:06. | :48:18. | |
classic. , They are, indeed. Unpaid trial work periods prohibition law. | :48:19. | :48:24. | |
Second reading, what day? Friday 16th of March, 2018. Prisons, | :48:25. | :48:34. | |
interference with wireless telegraphy bill. Second reading, | :48:35. | :48:38. | |
what day? Friday first September, 2018. -- Friday first December, | :48:39. | :48:50. | |
2018. Stalking protection Bill. Second reading, what day?. Friday | :48:51. | :48:59. | |
19th of January, 20 18. Oh, I do hope I'm here! | :49:00. | :49:12. | |
Employment and workers' rights bill. Is set Second reading, what day? | :49:13. | :49:27. | |
Friday 27th of April, 2018? Licensing of taxis and Private hire | :49:28. | :49:31. | |
vehicles, safeguarding bill. Second reading, what day? Friday second | :49:32. | :49:44. | |
debris, 2018. Freedom of information extension Bill. Second reading, what | :49:45. | :49:57. | |
day?. Friday 15th June, 2018. Representation of the People Act | :49:58. | :50:02. | |
Young People's enfranchisement bill. Second reading, what day? Friday | :50:03. | :50:16. | |
11th of May, 2018. Thank you. Physician associates regulation | :50:17. | :50:25. | |
bill. Second reading, what day? Friday 26 October, 2018. Thank you. | :50:26. | :50:37. | |
National Living Wage extension to young people Bill. Second reading, | :50:38. | :50:44. | |
what day? Friday since July 20 18. -- Friday the 6th of July, 2018. | :50:45. | :50:50. | |
Thank you to colleagues for your patience. We now come to the | :50:51. | :50:55. | |
emergency debate on higher education regulations on tuition fees. I | :50:56. | :50:58. | |
called the Shadow Secretary of State for Education. Thank you, Mr | :50:59. | :51:05. | |
Speaker, and thank you for granting this emergency debate. It is a shame | :51:06. | :51:10. | |
that this was necessary when we have a first secretary of state who calls | :51:11. | :51:14. | |
for a national debate on tuition fees, a Brexit secretary who says | :51:15. | :51:20. | |
this House always votes on statutory instruments, and Justice Secretary | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
who, as leader of the House, actually did accept the need for a | :51:26. | :51:29. | |
debate and vote. Of course, that was before the election, Mr Speaker. Now | :51:30. | :51:36. | |
100 days later, this week and wobbly government doesn't even trust its | :51:37. | :51:41. | |
own backbenchers with a vote on its own policies. But the higher | :51:42. | :51:46. | |
education and research act that the Education Secretary and the | :51:47. | :51:48. | |
universities minister took through this House is very clear on the | :51:49. | :51:52. | |
matter. Paragraph five of scheduled to stated that the upper limit of | :51:53. | :51:57. | |
these can only rise when each House of Parliament has passed a | :51:58. | :52:01. | |
resolution that with effect from the date specified in the resolution, | :52:02. | :52:04. | |
the higher amount should be increased. Can the minister | :52:05. | :52:09. | |
guarantee that no students will have to pay the higher fees until both | :52:10. | :52:14. | |
houses have passed such a resolution allowing it? Can he tell us when the | :52:15. | :52:19. | |
vote on these resolutions will take place? Of course, the minister | :52:20. | :52:25. | |
himself seems to be one member of the government to does not want this | :52:26. | :52:29. | |
vote, judging from his Twitter feed last night. He said that plans to | :52:30. | :52:34. | |
raise fees were first outlined in a July 2016 and that we have had | :52:35. | :52:40. | |
extensive debate sense. Perhaps he forgot that they were announced on | :52:41. | :52:45. | |
the last day before summer recess last year, snuck out as one of 30 | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
written statements on that day, then the statutory instrument was put | :52:52. | :52:55. | |
before the House just before Christmas this year. Not long after | :52:56. | :52:59. | |
that the opposition parade against the measures and yet despite | :53:00. | :53:03. | |
repeatedly pushing for it we were not given a debate. And as the | :53:04. | :53:08. | |
Minister said the regulations came into force on the 6th of January... | :53:09. | :53:13. | |
I happily give way. On the subject of being weak and wobbly, can she | :53:14. | :53:18. | |
confirm if it is still Labour policy to pay off all 100 billion of the | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
outstanding student debt? Is that still policy, yes or no? Mr Speaker, | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
I don't know how many times I have to explain this to members opposite | :53:30. | :53:34. | |
before they finally understand. A cynic might say that there are | :53:35. | :53:41. | |
wilfully misrepresenting my party 's policies. We have never said that we | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
would simply write off all existing debt. They refer to comments made by | :53:48. | :53:54. | |
my right honourable friend, the Leader of the Opposition. I would | :53:55. | :53:57. | |
remind them that he said that we would look at steps to reduce or | :53:58. | :54:04. | |
emanate the debt burden. Perhaps this confused to members opposite | :54:05. | :54:08. | |
because it is not something their front bench has done for seven | :54:09. | :54:11. | |
years. For instance, you may want to listen to this before you intervene | :54:12. | :54:15. | |
again. For instance, we would look again at the repayment threshold for | :54:16. | :54:20. | |
student debts, which they have frozen at ?21,000, which will cost | :54:21. | :54:25. | |
most of the lower earning graduates. We would look at the interest rates | :54:26. | :54:30. | |
on debt which they have allowed to reach an extortionate, unacceptable | :54:31. | :54:34. | |
fix .1% in the year to come, and I have said once, and I will say it | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
again, we have no plans to write off existing student debt and we never | :54:42. | :54:47. | |
promised to do so. Unlike the party opposite, we make sure that all of | :54:48. | :54:53. | |
our plans are fully costed and outlined in our manifesto. Perhaps | :54:54. | :54:55. | |
they could learn something from that. I my honourable friend for | :54:56. | :55:04. | |
giving way, in 2010 the government tripled tuition fees and now they | :55:05. | :55:08. | |
are raising fees again. Does my honourable friend agree that there | :55:09. | :55:11. | |
is no surprise whatsoever that young people are turning away from this | :55:12. | :55:18. | |
government in their droves? My honourable friend makes an important | :55:19. | :55:22. | |
point as in the sour grapes from opposite is the fact that they | :55:23. | :55:25. | |
clearly understand that we are connected with the young people of | :55:26. | :55:29. | |
this country, unlike the benches opposite. Can I thank the honourable | :55:30. | :55:38. | |
lady for giving way and I wonder for one moment if she could just take | :55:39. | :55:41. | |
the stripped she was given seconds before she got up and put it to one | :55:42. | :55:46. | |
side and answer a simple question. -- script. During the election party | :55:47. | :55:51. | |
made it categorically clear to endless numbers of students that | :55:52. | :55:54. | |
they would abolish the student debt, will she now get up and apologise | :55:55. | :56:04. | |
for using them as election for the? I say to the honourable member, as I | :56:05. | :56:10. | |
said to the other honourable member, that was not... Order! Order! | :56:11. | :56:15. | |
Members must call them down. -- calm down. Earlier we were breast of the | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
Pleasance -- earlier we were blessed with the presence of the father of | :56:19. | :56:21. | |
the House who intervene the Prime Minister's Questions and he asked | :56:22. | :56:25. | |
question and then the rest of the time he eggs you did would like | :56:26. | :56:29. | |
calm, which other honourable and right honourable members should seek | :56:30. | :56:34. | |
to emulate. I deliberately granted this debate the full three hours so | :56:35. | :56:39. | |
there is plenty of time, but members should not shout at each other | :56:40. | :56:46. | |
across the chamber. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Thank -- first of all, the | :56:47. | :56:51. | |
honourable member seems to have failed to understand our policy. It | :56:52. | :56:54. | |
was absolutely clear what our policy was and that was from the day that | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
we took office that we would abolish tuition fees from that day and that | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
was absolutely clear. Please listen to my answers, I was absolutely | :57:03. | :57:10. | |
clear. Quiet. There is nothing worse than a failed minister. Mr Speaker, | :57:11. | :57:18. | |
we said that we would abolish tuition fees from the moment that we | :57:19. | :57:22. | |
got into power and we also said that we would bring back maintenance | :57:23. | :57:26. | |
grants because unlike the benches opposite which are chuntering away | :57:27. | :57:29. | |
and not listening to what I have to say despite the fact that they | :57:30. | :57:32. | |
intervened, I am not taking any more interventions if you will not listen | :57:33. | :57:38. | |
to the answers. I will happily give way. Can I suggest to my honourable | :57:39. | :57:43. | |
friend that she does not take any nonsense from the other side. They | :57:44. | :57:51. | |
repeatedly told this House that whenever the opposition parade | :57:52. | :57:54. | |
against a statutory instrument that they would guarantee there would be | :57:55. | :57:57. | |
a vote in this House, so the people could put their vote won their mouth | :57:58. | :58:01. | |
was. They repeatedly have failed to do so. They are trying to do this by | :58:02. | :58:06. | |
the back door, which is why she is absolutely right to show the door. I | :58:07. | :58:15. | |
thank you my honourable friend for his intervention and I congratulate | :58:16. | :58:17. | |
him for his experience in these matters more than myself. But the | :58:18. | :58:22. | |
Minister said, I'm going to make some progress, the minister said the | :58:23. | :58:27. | |
regulations came into force on the 6th of January but they did so | :58:28. | :58:32. | |
without debate, let alone a vote in this House. Then we were finally | :58:33. | :58:37. | |
granted a debate and vote and the Prime Minister called her early | :58:38. | :58:40. | |
election and then the regulations came into force while Parliament was | :58:41. | :58:46. | |
dissolved. We have since raised it repeatedly, only to be eventually | :58:47. | :58:50. | |
told by the new leader of the House that the government does not intend | :58:51. | :58:55. | |
to provide any time for it. So much for the Minister 's extensive | :58:56. | :58:56. | |
debate. I happily give way. I promise I will listen intently to | :58:57. | :59:07. | |
her reply. She and I will agree on one thing. That we are very lucky in | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
this country to have a high quality, in terms of brainpower, of people at | :59:12. | :59:19. | |
University today. They told me what they thought the leader of her party | :59:20. | :59:24. | |
had said. It is at huge variance to what the honourable lady has said | :59:25. | :59:27. | |
her right honourable friend said during the election campaign. Nobody | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
remembers the weasel words and caveats she has deployed today. Will | :59:35. | :59:40. | |
she now apologise? Will be on -- the honourable member says it is weasel | :59:41. | :59:44. | |
words but I can guarantee that throughout the campaign number four, | :59:45. | :59:47. | |
I was up and down the country with my honourable friend... Let me | :59:48. | :59:59. | |
respond. Members have got to learn the ropes and the honourable | :00:00. | :00:03. | |
gentleman has been here a number of years. It is normal manners and | :00:04. | :00:07. | |
Parliamentary etiquette that a member be given the chance to | :00:08. | :00:10. | |
respond to an intervention before being hollered at to take another. | :00:11. | :00:20. | |
Don't smirk at me. You were smirking. You can take this from me | :00:21. | :00:26. | |
whether you like it or not. Behave! I believe our party were absolutely | :00:27. | :00:31. | |
clear and the thousands of students that have contacted me on this issue | :00:32. | :00:35. | |
are clear on this as well. So I don't know why he isn't clear on it. | :00:36. | :00:42. | |
The consequence is uncertainty for both universities and thousands of | :00:43. | :00:44. | |
students due to go to university next year. Perhaps the minister can | :00:45. | :00:50. | |
tell us what will happen if once we eventually secure a vote the | :00:51. | :00:53. | |
regulations are revoked during the university year. This fee hike is | :00:54. | :00:59. | |
damaging enough in itself but leaving it unclear is even worse. I | :01:00. | :01:07. | |
will happily give way. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. | :01:08. | :01:10. | |
Does she agree that it's extraordinary the way the Government | :01:11. | :01:14. | |
have responded, mocking the issues debated, when really they should be | :01:15. | :01:19. | |
much more concerned about the drop in University application figures, | :01:20. | :01:23. | |
the rising debt of young people, and I've had grandparents and parents | :01:24. | :01:27. | |
talk to me about debts of ?50,000 for young people in their families. | :01:28. | :01:32. | |
Shouldn't we be sending a message of hope to young people rather than | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
that we are going to increase the anxiety before you even start your | :01:36. | :01:41. | |
young life? I absolutely agree, and we know this was a very hot topic | :01:42. | :01:45. | |
during the general election, and I believe this House has the best | :01:46. | :01:52. | |
interests of young people and that's -- that side of the House really | :01:53. | :01:56. | |
need to listen to way young people are on this issue. The current plan | :01:57. | :02:01. | |
is all part of behaviour from this Government. They tripled tuition | :02:02. | :02:06. | |
fees to ?9,000, they abolished maintenance grants for students, | :02:07. | :02:10. | |
meaning the poorest will take on the most debt, they promised when they | :02:11. | :02:16. | |
tripled tuition fees that the threshold at which graduates repay | :02:17. | :02:20. | |
their student debts, currently at 21,000, would rise in line with | :02:21. | :02:26. | |
earnings. In fact, the Conservative Universities Minister at the time | :02:27. | :02:30. | |
said, we will increase the repayment threshold to 21000 and we will | :02:31. | :02:35. | |
thereafter increase it periodically to reflect earnings. They broke that | :02:36. | :02:41. | |
promise as well. And while tuition fees continue to rise, the repayment | :02:42. | :02:47. | |
threshold remains frozen, hitting graduates on lower salaries each and | :02:48. | :02:55. | |
every year. I give way. She refers to the issue of broken promises. | :02:56. | :02:58. | |
Will she tell us which government it was, which party it was in 2001 | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
stated that they would not raise top up fees because they had legislated | :03:05. | :03:08. | |
against them, and then introduced them in 2004? The honourable member | :03:09. | :03:14. | |
will know that when we introduce tuition fees and when we dealt with | :03:15. | :03:21. | |
that issue, we also increased the amount of maintenance grants and | :03:22. | :03:24. | |
support that was on offer to the poorest students. Now even Lord | :03:25. | :03:30. | |
Adonais, the architect of those tuition fees, called it a | :03:31. | :03:36. | |
Frankenstein's monster of ?50,000 worth of debt for students on modest | :03:37. | :03:39. | |
salaries who can't afford to pay back these fees. -- for graduates on | :03:40. | :03:47. | |
modest salaries. I was in Parliament at the time of that bill going | :03:48. | :03:52. | |
through protesting it, and not only has our noble friend had a change of | :03:53. | :03:57. | |
heart, but so has the entire Conservative Party, because they | :03:58. | :04:00. | |
railed against the introduction of top-up fees, George Osborne called | :04:01. | :04:04. | |
it a tax on learning, so who would have thought that only a few years | :04:05. | :04:08. | |
later, this would be the party that would plunge students into the | :04:09. | :04:11. | |
highest levels of debt in the Western world? I'm really trying to | :04:12. | :04:17. | |
make this debate constructive rather than a ping-pong of who said what. | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
What our students today expect of us, they are telling us that the | :04:24. | :04:26. | |
current debt levels they are getting at the moment are unsustainable and | :04:27. | :04:35. | |
they clearly are. A record number of students from disadvantaged | :04:36. | :04:37. | |
backgrounds going to university, which members opposite say all the | :04:38. | :04:41. | |
time, but if only that were the whole story. Because the evidence | :04:42. | :04:47. | |
shows students from the most disadvantaged backgrounds are the | :04:48. | :04:51. | |
most likely to be deterred by debt. I will happily give way. Would she | :04:52. | :04:57. | |
agree with me that there's a real difference between what is happening | :04:58. | :05:03. | |
in Wales with the Diamond Review, which is moving back to a | :05:04. | :05:07. | |
grant-based review, so they will receive a full grant and support for | :05:08. | :05:13. | |
living costs, which other student bodies including the NUS have | :05:14. | :05:18. | |
implemented. That's the effect of having a Labour government in Wales | :05:19. | :05:23. | |
as opposed to a Tory government. I'm sure he has pre-empted some of the | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
interventions from the benches opposite who like to say that the | :05:27. | :05:30. | |
Wales government on doing things right. But they have invested in | :05:31. | :05:34. | |
their young people and they believe they young people are the future of | :05:35. | :05:37. | |
the Welsh economy, and I congratulate them on making those | :05:38. | :05:43. | |
decisions. Of course the Welsh government is a government that | :05:44. | :05:48. | |
makes its decisions on education, before I get an intervention on what | :05:49. | :05:52. | |
Wales are doing about loans. As I was saying, though, Mr Speaker, | :05:53. | :06:02. | |
burdening students with over ?50,000 of debt, we would then see more | :06:03. | :06:06. | |
disadvantaged young people not going to university. After all, we have | :06:07. | :06:12. | |
seen that in many of the most prestigious universities, including | :06:13. | :06:16. | |
Oxford and Cambridge. The number of disadvantaged students attending is | :06:17. | :06:21. | |
falling. She complains we keep asking questions about who said what | :06:22. | :06:25. | |
and when, but they perpetrated a scam on the British people, because | :06:26. | :06:30. | |
they clearly led students in our constituencies to believe that their | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
loans would be written off. If she is now saying that that was not the | :06:36. | :06:42. | |
intention, but that they would in future just cancel future tuition | :06:43. | :06:47. | |
fees, how is that fair for those people, including my children, who | :06:48. | :06:49. | |
notched up tens of thousands of pounds worth of debt, which she is | :06:50. | :06:54. | |
complaining about, that she leaves them with debt but in future they | :06:55. | :07:02. | |
won't have a debt? How is that fair? I can't say it any clearer. We said | :07:03. | :07:08. | |
we wouldn't do anything with it unless we could afford it. Mr | :07:09. | :07:18. | |
Speaker, I have put forward and I will continue to put forward three | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
things this Government can do right away to help our students, including | :07:22. | :07:24. | |
the honourable members and his daughters. One is the repayment | :07:25. | :07:31. | |
threshold, which this Government has decided to freeze, which they don't | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
have to do. They can put it in line with earnings. Secondly, they could | :07:36. | :07:38. | |
look at the percentage rate of the loan. It is 6.7%. It doesn't have to | :07:39. | :07:45. | |
be that. It was a Bank of England rate plus one, and that would be | :07:46. | :07:51. | |
1.25%, which is considerably less than the current 6.7%. If the | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
Government really cares about social mobility and getting students into | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
university, bring back maintenance grants. I will happily give way. | :08:00. | :08:11. | |
Thank you. I was a nurse until a month ago and I wasn't even | :08:12. | :08:14. | |
adequately paid, let alone overpaid, and the point I want to make is I | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
got a bursary when I trained. I was a single parent and I couldn't have | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
trained without it. The fact that nursing applications have fallen by | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
a massive percentage means people like me wouldn't have been able to | :08:30. | :08:33. | |
train. Can I ask for her comments on that? I welcome my honourable friend | :08:34. | :08:40. | |
to This Place and she makes an extremely important point, because | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
we've seen that nurses' bursaries have had a negative impact on people | :08:46. | :08:48. | |
applying to go to university and do nurse courses, and as we look to | :08:49. | :08:54. | |
exit the European Union, we all know on both sides of this House that we | :08:55. | :08:58. | |
have to train and skill up our own workforce in order to provide those | :08:59. | :09:02. | |
nurses, doctors and all of those skilled worker jobs that we require | :09:03. | :09:11. | |
if the honourable members opposite said that they wanted to cut | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
immigration. If they truly wanted to do that, they have to invest in the | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
young people in this country. And it seems the Secretary of State | :09:20. | :09:22. | |
believes that access to higher education simply ends with | :09:23. | :09:26. | |
admissions. Figures for the office of fair access have shown that the | :09:27. | :09:29. | |
proportion of students dropping out before they finish their studies is | :09:30. | :09:34. | |
at a five-year high. And disadvantaged students are nearly | :09:35. | :09:39. | |
twice as likely to drop out compared to their more affluent peers. I will | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
give way. I appreciate that this is a difficult day for her because she | :09:46. | :09:48. | |
has come to raise some important issues which we should discuss and | :09:49. | :09:52. | |
debate, but her credibility is completely undermined by the | :09:53. | :09:55. | |
difficulty of saying she is talking about the best interest of young | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
people on the one hand, and on the other hand, having seen her party | :10:00. | :10:03. | |
policy change to a position where today she says she has no plans to | :10:04. | :10:08. | |
write off student debt, and therefore her party's word cannot be | :10:09. | :10:14. | |
trusted on anything, and young people will become more cynical | :10:15. | :10:22. | |
about what politicians say... The Arab member knows that we are | :10:23. | :10:25. | |
talking about the tuition fee rise that his party said they would give | :10:26. | :10:32. | |
to students and I am hoping we can push his government to get a vote, | :10:33. | :10:37. | |
and that is not to hike tuition fees for our young people. Social | :10:38. | :10:41. | |
mobility, Mr Speaker, is stalling, and dropout rates are rising. In the | :10:42. | :10:48. | |
UK this is the highest in the world and more than 75% of students will | :10:49. | :10:54. | |
never pay off their debts. The fact is, their policy on higher education | :10:55. | :10:58. | |
simply isn't working. I will give way. My position on tuition fees is | :10:59. | :11:06. | |
perfectly clear, as my voting record will attest. But the difference with | :11:07. | :11:09. | |
what she has laid out today is that the normal run of things of Labour | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
policy is to promise students things and then backtracked in government. | :11:15. | :11:17. | |
This time they have promised to write off the debts and then | :11:18. | :11:26. | |
backtracked in opposition. Would she therefore say to a grandfather in my | :11:27. | :11:29. | |
constituency you'd simply got his information from the news following | :11:30. | :11:35. | |
the promise from Labour that his grandchildrens' debts would be | :11:36. | :11:41. | |
written off, is she accusing him of being a bit stupid? I would ask them | :11:42. | :11:49. | |
to go to our website, where they can get a copy of For The Many, Not The | :11:50. | :11:58. | |
Few,, which highlights our education service and I can tell you is a huge | :11:59. | :12:07. | |
amount more than the Conservative manifesto, which was to simply take | :12:08. | :12:12. | |
the food from the mouths of children of this country, which was rejected | :12:13. | :12:18. | |
by the public. But there is an alternative. One outlined by the | :12:19. | :12:21. | |
Labour Party at the last general election. We pledged to end | :12:22. | :12:26. | |
university tuition fees so that future generations will not be | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
burdened with debts simply for seeking an education. And we would | :12:33. | :12:37. | |
find that by taxing the wealthiest individuals and the biggest business | :12:38. | :12:41. | |
instead of forcing only those graduates are unfortunate enough to | :12:42. | :12:46. | |
be 50,000 in debt to foot the bill. By contrast, the Government's system | :12:47. | :12:51. | |
will still cost the taxpayer nearly ?6 billion a year in the long-term. | :12:52. | :12:56. | |
We will also bring back the student maintenance grants. To support | :12:57. | :13:01. | |
students from low and middle income backgrounds with their living costs, | :13:02. | :13:05. | |
reversing one of the most aggressive decisions by the government. And | :13:06. | :13:09. | |
there is someone in the party opposite for a long time who agreed | :13:10. | :13:19. | |
with that policy. There was a Conservative Shadow Education | :13:20. | :13:21. | |
Secretary who said that the removal of maintenance grants would narrow | :13:22. | :13:30. | |
the access. Who told her party that, we need to show we care about the | :13:31. | :13:36. | |
student that wants to go to university but cannot afford tuition | :13:37. | :13:40. | |
fees, but to then helped write and stand on a manifesto that would | :13:41. | :13:45. | |
scrap tuition fees altogether. She is now the Prime Minister, Mr | :13:46. | :13:46. | |
Speaker. She is now the one narrowing access, | :13:47. | :14:01. | |
not widening it, who is showing students that she does not care, and | :14:02. | :14:07. | |
I am hoping that her manifesto promises can be disposed of as | :14:08. | :14:15. | |
quickly as Nick and Fiona were. To think, Mr Speaker, to think that on | :14:16. | :14:20. | |
Monday, in this House, the secretary of state accused me of cared -- | :14:21. | :14:26. | |
peddling snake oil propaganda. I guess that is her specialist | :14:27. | :14:30. | |
subject. She promised to protect school budgets in her manifesto in | :14:31. | :14:35. | |
2015 before cutting them in real terms. She pledged to give 30 hours | :14:36. | :14:40. | |
of free childcare to working parents, only to tell tens of | :14:41. | :14:44. | |
thousands of them that they do not earn enough to be eligible. And now | :14:45. | :14:50. | |
she is breaking every single promise the party opposite made to students. | :14:51. | :14:56. | |
I have told the secretary of state again and again what can be done to | :14:57. | :15:03. | |
address the existing debt burden. She could, again, I will reiterate, | :15:04. | :15:08. | |
she could again look at the extortionate interest rates on | :15:09. | :15:14. | |
students due to the rise of over 6%, at a time when the Bank of England | :15:15. | :15:19. | |
base rate is no point to 5%. She could keep the promise originally | :15:20. | :15:23. | |
made to students to actually raise the repayment threshold on their | :15:24. | :15:26. | |
debt in line with average earnings, and she could look again at the | :15:27. | :15:33. | |
unexpected bull levels of disadvantaged students dropping out | :15:34. | :15:37. | |
of universities and give them proper maintenance support. All of those | :15:38. | :15:41. | |
things would reduce the burden of debt on today's graduates and most | :15:42. | :15:46. | |
of them won't cost the taxpayer an extra penny. The 2015 general | :15:47. | :15:54. | |
election feels like a long time ago, Mr Speaker, that I remember a time | :15:55. | :15:58. | |
when the Conservatives stood on a manifesto that said, we, as a | :15:59. | :16:02. | |
nation, should not be piling up in passing on unaffordable levels of | :16:03. | :16:08. | |
debt to the next generation. But, Mr Speaker, that is exactly what her | :16:09. | :16:14. | |
government is doing, increasing tuition fees again will simply leave | :16:15. | :16:18. | |
more and more young people with debts that they will never repay. On | :16:19. | :16:23. | |
these benches we believe that is the wrong thing to do. Members opposite | :16:24. | :16:31. | |
may disagree. That is their right, but what is not right is to deny | :16:32. | :16:36. | |
this has the chance to decide. Tuition fees are an important issue, | :16:37. | :16:40. | |
but they are not the main issue before us today. The question before | :16:41. | :16:47. | |
us today is much more fundamental. It is about the trust in our | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
government and ultimately our democracy. And quite frankly, Mr | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
Speaker, if ministers cannot keep their promises to us then why should | :16:59. | :17:04. | |
anyone else believe them? I am sure the Minister is about to make what | :17:05. | :17:11. | |
he believes is a convincing case. However, the real test... Point of | :17:12. | :17:15. | |
order, I hope it is a point of order and not frustration. The point of | :17:16. | :17:19. | |
order is this that the Leader of the Opposition said to the MMA... Order! | :17:20. | :17:27. | |
Order! The honourable gentleman can resume his seat. It was a nice tight | :17:28. | :17:30. | |
and he is an industrious fellow but that is a matter of debate, he | :17:31. | :17:34. | |
cannot ask the chair to adjudicate on who said what, when, particularly | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
when it was outside this chamber. I appreciate the assiduity of the | :17:40. | :17:43. | |
honourable gentleman but I am afraid he leads a rather better disguise | :17:44. | :17:49. | |
than that. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am sure the Minister is about to | :17:50. | :17:51. | |
make what he believes is a convincing case. However, the real | :17:52. | :17:57. | |
test is not just to give us his word, but to give us a vote on them. | :17:58. | :18:05. | |
That is the question I put to him now. If he is so convinced that what | :18:06. | :18:10. | |
he is doing is right then will he give the courage of those convicted | :18:11. | :18:18. | |
-- convictions, and put them to this House. The question is as on the | :18:19. | :18:24. | |
order paper. I call the Minister for higher education, the universities | :18:25. | :18:29. | |
minister, Joe Johnston. Thank you, Mr Speaker, the party opposite wants | :18:30. | :18:32. | |
to talk about process because its policy platform is disintegrating | :18:33. | :18:40. | |
before our eyes. Mr Speaker, I welcome the opportunity to set out | :18:41. | :18:45. | |
once again the government 's approach to the student fees | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
regulations. This is hardly new to rain for Parliament. The government | :18:50. | :18:55. | |
made it clear as far back as June 2015 's budget that maximum tuition | :18:56. | :18:58. | |
fees would lie is -- rise in line with inflation and I set out changes | :18:59. | :19:04. | |
to fees in detail for 2017/18 in a written WMS in July 20 16. Changes | :19:05. | :19:09. | |
to bees were subsequently extensively debated during the | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
passage of the AT bill through both houses, with numerous votes on | :19:14. | :19:17. | |
student finance issues, all of which were won by the government. The | :19:18. | :19:22. | |
regulations, Mr Speaker, are not proposed as the honourable member | :19:23. | :19:27. | |
opposite says, they have now been in force for six months. This debate | :19:28. | :19:33. | |
which cannot change arrangements for 2017/18 is therefore a sham | :19:34. | :19:40. | |
exercise. I suspect this is simply more of the same cynical politics we | :19:41. | :19:45. | |
saw over the weekend when labour broke its own pre-election pledge | :19:46. | :19:48. | |
about which we have heard so much this afternoon, to write off a | :19:49. | :19:55. | |
historic student loan debts, so let us recall precisely what the Leader | :19:56. | :20:02. | |
of the Opposition told NME seven days before the general election, | :20:03. | :20:06. | |
and this is a direct quote. I don't see why those who had the historical | :20:07. | :20:12. | |
misfortune to be at university during the ?9,000 period should be | :20:13. | :20:15. | |
burdened excessively compared to those who went before or those that | :20:16. | :20:22. | |
came after. I will deal with it. I will deal with it, Mr Speaker! This | :20:23. | :20:29. | |
was likely a pledge to young voters. Now, Mr Speaker, the first sign of | :20:30. | :20:34. | |
trouble came when the Shadow Education Secretary said a few days | :20:35. | :20:37. | |
ago that she was still trying to work out the cost of this policy on | :20:38. | :20:44. | |
a big Apple curse, and then the penny dropped completely over the | :20:45. | :20:48. | |
weekend when we heard from the Shadow Chancellor and others that | :20:49. | :20:53. | |
this pre-election promise was being downgraded to the lowly status of an | :20:54. | :20:58. | |
ambition. Well, Mr Speaker, we all know what that means, it means that | :20:59. | :21:03. | |
it is never, ever going to happen and it does not do anything for the | :21:04. | :21:07. | |
credibility of the party opposite to abandon such a striking commitment | :21:08. | :21:12. | |
to young people just a few weeks after the general election. I am | :21:13. | :21:19. | |
very grateful to the Minister for giving way. In case I am just | :21:20. | :21:22. | |
becoming a little forgetful, the manifesto to which my honourable | :21:23. | :21:27. | |
friend refers, that wasn't the fully costed manifesto of the Labour | :21:28. | :21:33. | |
Party, was it? My honourable friend is absolutely right. He has exposed | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
the truth, which is the Labour Party is delivering what is perhaps the | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
biggest act of political deception we have seen in this country in | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
decades. This is the old game of bait and switch, saying one thing | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
before a general election and another thing immediately | :21:51. | :21:53. | |
afterwards. Of course, given that this was a ?100 billion hit to our | :21:54. | :22:02. | |
public finances, which would have hurt hard-working taxpayers across | :22:03. | :22:06. | |
the country, and delivered significant additions to our | :22:07. | :22:10. | |
national debt, and to the interest burdens of the Next Generation, I am | :22:11. | :22:14. | |
personally glad that they are doing this spectacular and embarrassing | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
U-turn. I suspect it will not be too long before they abandon the rest of | :22:20. | :22:24. | |
their completely unaffordable, unfunded, fantastical policy | :22:25. | :22:29. | |
platform. It is a programme that they have clearly taken wholesale | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
from the status playbooks of 1970s tax and spend failed regimes that | :22:34. | :22:42. | |
all ended up with the IMF. Let be be clear, Mr Speaker, this policy that | :22:43. | :22:45. | |
they were proposing prior to the general election would have | :22:46. | :22:48. | |
increased our national debt by a whole five percentage points of GDP, | :22:49. | :22:56. | |
adding no less than ?3500 to the debt carried by every single | :22:57. | :23:02. | |
household in this country, and the proposal that they are also still | :23:03. | :23:06. | |
pushing... I will give way. I am grateful to my honourable friend, at | :23:07. | :23:10. | |
what point does he think that the honourable lady opposite decided to | :23:11. | :23:14. | |
do the U-turn. Could he give the House and the tarmac? It seems a | :23:15. | :23:19. | |
real puzzle. I suspect that they decided to do this spectacular | :23:20. | :23:22. | |
U-turn when they realise the impact it would have a hard-working | :23:23. | :23:29. | |
taxpayers up and down the because, Mr Speaker, the proposal to, as I | :23:30. | :23:33. | |
said, right of student debt is going to add ?3500 to the debt carried by | :23:34. | :23:37. | |
every single household in the country. I will give way. The | :23:38. | :23:41. | |
decision to scrap the maintenance grant means that the most | :23:42. | :23:44. | |
disadvantaged students will graduate with the highest level of debt. Do | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
you think that is fair? Mr Deputy Speaker, a better way of thinking | :23:51. | :23:54. | |
about this is that the government is making the most resources available | :23:55. | :23:55. | |
to the people who are most in need of it. We want people from | :23:56. | :24:14. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds to go to university. We are delighted that | :24:15. | :24:16. | |
they are in record numbers and there are now 43% more likely to do so | :24:17. | :24:19. | |
than they ever were before. Mr Speaker, the proposal Dahmer and | :24:20. | :24:22. | |
yes, sorry. If we were to put the best possible gloss on what the | :24:23. | :24:25. | |
Leader of the Opposition said, and imagine that he was merely | :24:26. | :24:32. | |
misunderstood in his intentions that he would deal in it by students. | :24:33. | :24:36. | |
What faith can we put in the new language that is being used that | :24:37. | :24:41. | |
they will merely look at a number of propositions? If you cannot trust | :24:42. | :24:47. | |
what deal with means, how can we possibly trust merely look at? That | :24:48. | :24:53. | |
is exactly right. The policy platform is collapsing before our | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
eyes. The next step, the next inevitable step, is the party | :24:59. | :25:01. | |
opposite abandons this albatross around their neck, which is now | :25:02. | :25:05. | |
their policy to abolish tuition fees in their entirety. They are saddled | :25:06. | :25:09. | |
with it. They are trying to wriggle off the hook of their clear promise | :25:10. | :25:12. | |
to abolish student debt and they will soon be trying to get rid of | :25:13. | :25:16. | |
this appalling albatross of getting rid of tuition fees in total. Mr | :25:17. | :25:19. | |
Speaker, as I have said, a huge addition to our | :25:20. | :25:35. | |
net debt from abolishing student debt, and the proposal to abolish | :25:36. | :25:37. | |
fees, and to reinstate maintenance grants, would add to ?12 billion to | :25:38. | :25:39. | |
the deficit. That is equivalent to not .7% of GDP and equivalent to the | :25:40. | :25:42. | |
right Honourable member, will be interested to know, to an additional | :25:43. | :25:45. | |
2.5 p on the basic rate of income tax. That is what the proposal to | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
abolish tuition fees and reinstate maintenance grants is going to cost. | :25:51. | :25:56. | |
I give way. There is a very simple procedural point that I want to make | :25:57. | :25:59. | |
to him and that is that if you want to make dramatic changes to schemes | :26:00. | :26:03. | |
you should take them through the House fairly and properly so that | :26:04. | :26:07. | |
members can vote. Ministers have repeatedly said in this House that | :26:08. | :26:13. | |
if the opposition praise against a statutory instrument, including the | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
ones that are relevant here, there will be a vote. That promise has not | :26:16. | :26:21. | |
been met. Will he make that promise again now? As I said in my opening | :26:22. | :26:34. | |
remarks, we have had a lot of votes of student finance issues and we won | :26:35. | :26:39. | |
them all. We won them all. The statutory instrument in question has | :26:40. | :26:41. | |
been in force for six months and it went through all the parliamentary | :26:42. | :26:43. | |
process and then play bad every opportunity to push for votes at the | :26:44. | :26:46. | |
correct time. The party opposite is now six months too late. These | :26:47. | :26:48. | |
regulations have been in force for six months. Mr Speaker, let us be | :26:49. | :26:51. | |
clear, abolishing fees and reinstating maintenance grants would | :26:52. | :26:54. | |
add ?12 billion to the national deficit, the equivalent of 0.7% of | :26:55. | :26:59. | |
GDP, equal to an extra 2.5 p on the basic rate of tax. Now, when we | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
reformed student finance in 2011 we put in place a system designed to | :27:07. | :27:11. | |
make higher education accessible to all. Students are now supported by a | :27:12. | :27:14. | |
system of government subsidised loans which are only repayable when | :27:15. | :27:19. | |
students earn more than ?21,000. Controlling the cost of higher | :27:20. | :27:22. | |
education to the general taxpayer, who has to fund public spending in | :27:23. | :27:27. | |
this way, allowed us critically to remove the cap on student numbers | :27:28. | :27:29. | |
and ensure that higher education is available to all, with the potential | :27:30. | :27:40. | |
to benefit from it. He is quite rightly pointing out that there will | :27:41. | :27:45. | |
be a cost to the public purse for how we fund higher education, but | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
his own government will be aware that 45% of all lanes that are taken | :27:50. | :27:53. | |
out never repaid and after the 30 year role 70% of students have a | :27:54. | :27:59. | |
outstanding debt payable. As it figures to fit whether that money | :28:00. | :28:02. | |
that the government ultimately has to pay from the student loan book | :28:03. | :28:06. | |
could be better used to reduce the cost of tuition fees now and allow | :28:07. | :28:08. | |
more students to go to university. He is correct to say there is a | :28:09. | :28:19. | |
government contribution and it is a direct subsidy towards the skills | :28:20. | :28:23. | |
base of this country to allow more people from disadvantaged | :28:24. | :28:26. | |
backgrounds to go without finance being a barrier. We want people to | :28:27. | :28:31. | |
pursue worthwhile, socially valuable careers that might not lead to such | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
high earning, and we also want people to be able to take on | :28:36. | :28:41. | |
child-bearing responsibilities, family rearing responsibilities, and | :28:42. | :28:44. | |
these are all reasons why the state will continue to make a contribution | :28:45. | :28:49. | |
towards the loan. I'm going to make some progress. I've given away a | :28:50. | :28:54. | |
number of times. The move to a predominantly lone-base system has | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
also allowed us to increase the level of financial support to | :28:58. | :28:59. | |
disadvantaged students. I'm pleased to say that the application rate for | :29:00. | :29:06. | |
students from disadvantaged backgrounds is at an all-time high. | :29:07. | :29:10. | |
We've also seen record numbers of black and minority ethnic students | :29:11. | :29:14. | |
going into higher education over recent years. There is more to be | :29:15. | :29:17. | |
done but we're making progress and the effectiveness of our system and | :29:18. | :29:26. | |
our form has been recognised the OECD -- by the OECD saying the UK | :29:27. | :29:30. | |
has been able to meet rising demand for tertiary education with more | :29:31. | :29:34. | |
resources by finding effective ways to share the costs and the benefits. | :29:35. | :29:41. | |
This Government remains... September 2016, that quote is from. This | :29:42. | :29:45. | |
Government remains committed to providing a fair deal for students | :29:46. | :29:51. | |
to ensure Engen's universities are sustainably financed. This has | :29:52. | :29:55. | |
enabled them to maintain their world-class standing. -- England's | :29:56. | :30:05. | |
universities. I represent Oxford West that has two great | :30:06. | :30:08. | |
universities, and they are both telling me they face huge | :30:09. | :30:11. | |
uncertainty because of Brexit, not least because they don't know the | :30:12. | :30:15. | |
fee arrangements for university students from Europe. What is the | :30:16. | :30:19. | |
minister doing about this point if he wants to make sure they are well | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
funded for the future? On the specific point she raises about EU | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
students, we have provided significant clarity. They will | :30:30. | :30:32. | |
continue to be eligible for access to loans in the years up to 2019, so | :30:33. | :30:38. | |
this has provided the clarity they need. They know that for the | :30:39. | :30:41. | |
duration of their studies, they will be able to come, access home fee | :30:42. | :30:48. | |
status and access our loan book. The ?9,000 fee cap we set in 2012 is | :30:49. | :30:54. | |
worth just ?8,500 in real terms, and if we leave it and changed, it will | :30:55. | :31:00. | |
be worth ?8,000 by the end of this Parliament. We cannot let that | :31:01. | :31:04. | |
happen. It will put at risk the quality of teaching in our | :31:05. | :31:07. | |
universities and undermine the financial sustainability of the | :31:08. | :31:12. | |
sector. As chair of the business Select Committee, prior to the | :31:13. | :31:16. | |
tripling of the tuition fees in 2012, the Select Committee held a | :31:17. | :31:25. | |
session which they interviewed the then Secretary of State for | :31:26. | :31:30. | |
Education, and the quote says, when the government's economic policies | :31:31. | :31:33. | |
have produced the successful outcome we all expect, we can return to the | :31:34. | :31:37. | |
question of how universities can be supported in a more generous way. | :31:38. | :31:40. | |
But at the moment we face a massive financial crisis. The proposals are | :31:41. | :31:47. | |
actually less generous, not more generous. Are we still in a | :31:48. | :31:53. | |
financial crisis? And if not, when will the minister and current | :31:54. | :31:55. | |
government live up to the commitment given by that minister? I'm puzzled | :31:56. | :32:04. | |
by that intervention. Al university per student funding is up 25% as the | :32:05. | :32:15. | |
result of our reforms. -- our university per student funding. It | :32:16. | :32:19. | |
is better than at any point in the last 30 years. We should not | :32:20. | :32:25. | |
forget... OK. Is it not the case that if these fee increases don't go | :32:26. | :32:29. | |
through, we are effectively cutting spending on universities? Is it not | :32:30. | :32:33. | |
the case that we should be fighting cuts and opposing Labour's plan to | :32:34. | :32:41. | |
cut spending on higher education? Indeed, our system of finance is | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
allowing universities to be sustainably funded. Funding per | :32:46. | :32:49. | |
student is up 25%. We will put all of that at risk if we go anywhere | :32:50. | :32:52. | |
near the funding platform of the party opposite. Is it not true that | :32:53. | :33:00. | |
the party opposite is now feigning confusion over Parliamentary process | :33:01. | :33:04. | |
on this? Having deliberately created their own confusion? The reality on | :33:05. | :33:09. | |
the doorsteps across Eastleigh is that the promised to deal with it | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
could also include covering bank overdrafts. With the minister agree | :33:15. | :33:20. | |
this is empty promise for an... Well, I think a mathematically | :33:21. | :33:24. | |
illiterate, that's the word I'm looking for! It's going well! But | :33:25. | :33:32. | |
the reality is, bank overdrafts were to be dealt with just a student | :33:33. | :33:40. | |
loans. That just shows the extent to which the party opposite misled the | :33:41. | :33:43. | |
country in the run-up to the general election. And I think they are owed | :33:44. | :33:48. | |
an apology. The constituents of my right honourable friend in | :33:49. | :33:53. | |
Eastleigh. Let's not forget it was a labour government under Prime | :33:54. | :33:56. | |
Minister Tony Blair that sensibly put in place these legal powers we | :33:57. | :34:02. | |
used some six months ago to put in place the ability to increase fees | :34:03. | :34:08. | |
in line with inflation through a negative procedure. However, under | :34:09. | :34:11. | |
the regulations we debate today, rather than increasing fees for | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
everyone, we are only allowing providers to maintain their fees in | :34:16. | :34:19. | |
line with inflation if they can demonstrate they are using these | :34:20. | :34:23. | |
resources well in terms of providing a high quality of teaching and good | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
outcomes for their students. Universities UK and guilt HD, the | :34:31. | :34:35. | |
two main representative bodies that represent over 170 higher education | :34:36. | :34:39. | |
providers, have made it clear that allowing the value of these to be | :34:40. | :34:43. | |
maintained in real terms is essential if our providers are to | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
continue to deliver high-quality teaching. And to quote Gordon | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
McKenzie, the CEO of guilt HD, he made it clear fees had to rise by | :34:54. | :34:58. | |
inflation at some point and it was fairer for students if those rises | :34:59. | :35:01. | |
were linked to an assessment of quality as the Government is doing. | :35:02. | :35:07. | |
I thank him for giving way. University education is also a route | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
to higher earnings over a lifetime. Up to a quarter of ?1 million. If we | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
did go forward with the party opposite's plans to abolish tuition | :35:17. | :35:21. | |
fees, that could damage the prospect of the disadvantaged. We saw that in | :35:22. | :35:26. | |
Scotland and a number of people from disadvantaged communities there | :35:27. | :35:30. | |
applying for university. The policy would do the opposite of what they | :35:31. | :35:34. | |
say they would do. There would be a huge setback to social mobility in | :35:35. | :35:38. | |
this country, it would be bad for taxpayers, who would be left | :35:39. | :35:43. | |
shoulder in the entire cost of the higher education system, and it | :35:44. | :35:45. | |
would leave the finances of our university system in tatters. | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
Professor Steve Smith, the vice Chancellor of Exeter University, has | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
said, the teaching framework allows us the opportunity to invest in the | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
students and their futures, the long-term success of our country, | :36:00. | :36:05. | |
and the outstanding teaching, and the Government rightly wants | :36:06. | :36:07. | |
something for something for the economy and for students. I give | :36:08. | :36:13. | |
way. I am grateful. I am shocked the vice chancellors want to see tuition | :36:14. | :36:17. | |
fees rise. This comes as a complete surprise to everyone. The minister | :36:18. | :36:21. | |
surely will be able to confirm today that tomorrow he is very likely to | :36:22. | :36:25. | |
use powers to once again increased tuition fees to a higher level. And | :36:26. | :36:32. | |
once we get to 19-20, under the act passed under the last election, we | :36:33. | :36:35. | |
will have to have votes in Parliament to allow an facilitate | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
these rises, so if we are going to be doing that in the future, why not | :36:40. | :36:44. | |
do it now? As I've already made clear on a number of occasions, | :36:45. | :36:48. | |
these regulations have been in place for months and they are already | :36:49. | :36:50. | |
applying across the sector. Widening participation is an important policy | :36:51. | :36:58. | |
objective for this Government. That is alongside incentivising teaching, | :36:59. | :37:02. | |
and the fees have allowed us to lift the student number cap. This is | :37:03. | :37:05. | |
allowing more people than ever before to benefit from a university | :37:06. | :37:09. | |
education. And as I said, disadvantaged 18-year-olds are now | :37:10. | :37:14. | |
43% more likely to go to university than in 2009, and a 52% more likely | :37:15. | :37:21. | |
to go to a high-tariff institution. For the last application cycle, the | :37:22. | :37:25. | |
entry rate for 18-year-olds from disadvantaged backgrounds is at a | :37:26. | :37:33. | |
record high. 19.5% in 2016 compared with 13.6% in 2009. The application | :37:34. | :37:37. | |
rate and actual number of English 18-year-olds is at record level for | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
applicants in this entry cycle. This Government has made clear that | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
finance should not be a barrier to going to university, which is why we | :37:47. | :37:49. | |
have made more funding available to students. In a minute... By | :37:50. | :37:53. | |
replacing maintenance grants and loans we've been able to increase | :37:54. | :37:57. | |
the funding for living costs are some of the most disadvantaged | :37:58. | :38:01. | |
students. It is an increase of over 10% in the current academic year, | :38:02. | :38:07. | |
with a further 2.8% increase for 2017-18. We have worked with the | :38:08. | :38:10. | |
office of fair access to encourage universities to do more to help | :38:11. | :38:17. | |
disadvantaged students in 27-18, when institutions are expected to | :38:18. | :38:25. | |
spend over ?8 million. -- in 17-18. This is more than double the amount | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
spent in the year 2009-10. I am grateful to him for giving way. I'm | :38:32. | :38:36. | |
sure he will be aware that our education exports last year exceeded | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
those of our insurance industry, mainly fuelled by the excellence of | :38:41. | :38:43. | |
our universities. If we don't fund them properly, we're not going to | :38:44. | :38:48. | |
maintain the world-class of our universities. Yes, it is essential | :38:49. | :38:54. | |
for them to continue to attract international students from around | :38:55. | :38:59. | |
the world. Moving to the system of the party opposite is advocating we | :39:00. | :39:02. | |
would leave the finances in tatters and it would be hugely damaging to | :39:03. | :39:05. | |
the quality of teaching they can offer. Whilst we're making good | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
progress on widening participation, more can be done, and we are doing | :39:10. | :39:13. | |
more. For example, in the latest guidance given by the director of | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
fair access we have acknowledged that selective institutions, | :39:19. | :39:21. | |
including Oxbridge and parts of the Russell Group, already do much to | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
increase access. But it is harder to see more progress is made. In the | :39:26. | :39:33. | |
Act, we are strengthening our approach by putting an overarching | :39:34. | :39:38. | |
duty to consider the promotion of equality and opportunity and access | :39:39. | :39:44. | |
and participation in all that it does. The new director will have a | :39:45. | :39:47. | |
clear role looking right across the full student life-cycle. The member | :39:48. | :39:55. | |
offer has been trundling -- has been talking about dropout rates. I would | :39:56. | :39:58. | |
like to inform him that the dropout rates are lower now for all | :39:59. | :40:04. | |
students, young, mature, disadvantaged and those from black | :40:05. | :40:07. | |
and minority and ethnic backgrounds, then when we came into office in | :40:08. | :40:13. | |
2010. And we are taking all the steps I have just mentioned to make | :40:14. | :40:16. | |
sure they stay among the very lowest in the OECD. The Act I've mentioned | :40:17. | :40:24. | |
also requires individual higher education providers to publish their | :40:25. | :40:29. | |
respective student application, offer, acceptance, dropout and | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
attainment rates, broken down by gender, ethnicity and socio economic | :40:35. | :40:36. | |
background through the transparency duty on the office for students. | :40:37. | :40:46. | |
Greater transparency will push universities into further action of | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
this area in addition to what has been achieved. With the minister | :40:51. | :40:56. | |
confirmed that applications from mature students were actually down | :40:57. | :41:00. | |
by 18% in the last year alone? And if we look at 2011-12, applications | :41:01. | :41:05. | |
for part-time applicants were actually down by a massive 30%. He | :41:06. | :41:14. | |
makes an important point, and I acknowledge. But he needs to | :41:15. | :41:17. | |
understand their complex reasons for it, including the rapid increase in | :41:18. | :41:21. | |
the proportion of people entering Highridge condition at a young age | :41:22. | :41:25. | |
is 18-year-olds. This means there is a smaller stock of students seeking | :41:26. | :41:29. | |
to participate in part-time mature study later in life. -- entering | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
higher education a young age. We also have one of the most buoyant | :41:36. | :41:38. | |
labour markets of anywhere in the world, which increases the | :41:39. | :41:41. | |
opportunity cost for study for people later on in life at a time | :41:42. | :41:45. | |
when they would otherwise be earning some -- significant sums of money. | :41:46. | :41:50. | |
But we recognise there is a full and we are taking significant steps to | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
address some of the financial barriers mature students are taking. | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
-- we recognise there is a fall. So we will be introducing a part-time | :42:00. | :42:02. | |
maintenance grant on the same basis as the current full-time equivalent | :42:03. | :42:09. | |
grant. On the point of disadvantage, before young people get to | :42:10. | :42:15. | |
university, they have to go through the full-time education system. | :42:16. | :42:18. | |
Would he therefore congratulate the Lincolnshire Conservative council on | :42:19. | :42:31. | |
its move to provide bus passes for full-time students at 16, down from | :42:32. | :42:38. | |
?200 to ?30, which is another indication that they would do | :42:39. | :42:46. | |
something very different in power. Turning to the repayment of loans, | :42:47. | :42:50. | |
our repayment system offers a fair deal to students. The current system | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
is deliberately subsidised by the taxpayer and it is universally | :42:56. | :42:59. | |
accessible to all students regardless of their personal | :43:00. | :43:01. | |
financial circumstances or credit history. Our system is based on | :43:02. | :43:06. | |
income, not the amount borrowed. Graduates with post-2012 loans pay | :43:07. | :43:10. | |
back only when they are earning more than ?21,000, and then only 9% of | :43:11. | :43:15. | |
earnings above that threshold, and then after 30 years the debt is | :43:16. | :43:23. | |
written off altogether with no recourse to the student and their | :43:24. | :43:29. | |
other assets. It is being capped so it will not be increased in real | :43:30. | :43:33. | |
terms for anyone going to university. We believe it is right | :43:34. | :43:36. | |
for those who benefit most to contribute most to the cost of it. | :43:37. | :43:40. | |
We should not forget that higher education leads to average net | :43:41. | :43:44. | |
lifetime earnings comfortably over ?100,000. To conclude, the party | :43:45. | :43:51. | |
opposite continues to scaremonger about changes to higher education. | :43:52. | :43:55. | |
The Conservative-led coalition introduced important reforms. They | :43:56. | :44:01. | |
have promised to write a student debts, to cut tuition fees and to | :44:02. | :44:04. | |
restore maintenance grants. However, they have failed to set out a | :44:05. | :44:08. | |
credible plan as to how they would fund their promises and now | :44:09. | :44:12. | |
shamelessly abandoning them just weeks after the general election. | :44:13. | :44:15. | |
That is hardly surprising given that they hadn't even managed to persuade | :44:16. | :44:20. | |
key figures in the Labour Party who had served in its former | :44:21. | :44:25. | |
governments. Take, for example, Lord Mandelson, who said their policy was | :44:26. | :44:29. | |
not credible and urged Labour to be honest about the cost of providing | :44:30. | :44:33. | |
higher education, and it wasn't just Lord Mandelson. The former Shadow | :44:34. | :44:39. | |
Chancellor Ed Balls said his party's failure to identify a sustainable | :44:40. | :44:44. | |
funding mechanism was "A blot on Labour's copybook". So I challenge | :44:45. | :44:51. | |
the opposition to say how they would fund the proposals on tuition fees, | :44:52. | :44:54. | |
maintenance grants and the write-off of student debt. We estimate the | :44:55. | :45:00. | |
annual cost of this policy to be 12 billion a year in addition to the | :45:01. | :45:05. | |
one-off expenditure required to make good the promise of writing off | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
historic student debt to the tune of ?89.3 billion in cash costs. And if | :45:11. | :45:17. | |
Labour wanted to go the whole hog, a further ?14 billion would be | :45:18. | :45:20. | |
required to compensate graduates the historical borrowing they have | :45:21. | :45:24. | |
already repaid. Make no mistake, Labour's policy of abolishing fees | :45:25. | :45:29. | |
would be a calamity. It would be ruinous for our world-class | :45:30. | :45:32. | |
university sector, leading to a falling per student funding of the | :45:33. | :45:36. | |
same magnitude we saw in the decades before the introduction of the | :45:37. | :45:43. | |
top-up fees. It would lead to the inevitable reimposition of student | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
number controls, which would cause the poorest and most disadvantaged | :45:48. | :45:50. | |
to miss out on university, throwing social mobility into reverse. And it | :45:51. | :45:54. | |
would do all of this at an eye watering cost to the hard-working | :45:55. | :45:58. | |
general taxpayer, whether he or she had been to university or not. On | :45:59. | :46:03. | |
would be the concept of a fairer sharing out of the cost of | :46:04. | :46:06. | |
university between graduates, with higher than average lifetime | :46:07. | :46:15. | |
earnings, and society at large. Bad for universities, bad for students, | :46:16. | :46:16. | |
bad for the taxpayer. It is no surprise that in the one | :46:17. | :46:24. | |
place that the Labour Party is in power they have chosen a different | :46:25. | :46:29. | |
approach. Last week the government in Wales quietly increased tuition | :46:30. | :46:34. | |
fees, making them marginally higher than the current rates in England. | :46:35. | :46:39. | |
Labour in Wales at least know that the party opposite 's plans are | :46:40. | :46:43. | |
unfettered students and ruinous to universities. Perhaps they should | :46:44. | :46:53. | |
tell the Labour Party leader. Has the honourable gentleman finished | :46:54. | :47:00. | |
his speech or is he giving way? I hope this isn't a point of debate. | :47:01. | :47:06. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker, I didn't want to interrupt the minister but he | :47:07. | :47:08. | |
said his speech he claimed that the opposition and the chance to call a | :47:09. | :47:12. | |
vote on the statutory instrument and did not do so, perhaps you could | :47:13. | :47:16. | |
confirm for the record that in fact a prayer was laid across the | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
regulations may have simply refused to allow the House vote since. I am | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
southernmost as a particular responsibility not to misinform the | :47:25. | :47:27. | |
House so therefore I am asking that it is clarified. The honourable lady | :47:28. | :47:40. | |
has put me on the spot and I know the minister to be a personal | :47:41. | :47:43. | |
incredible integrity and I do not doubt that for one moment. My | :47:44. | :47:48. | |
recollection, and I am open to advice and possibly even scholarly | :47:49. | :47:52. | |
correction from the source from which it usually derives is that the | :47:53. | :47:58. | |
opposition had prayed against this set of regulations. My further | :47:59. | :48:04. | |
recollection, and I think it is in the official report, is that the | :48:05. | :48:08. | |
government had indicated an intention for this matter to be | :48:09. | :48:13. | |
debated and voted upon. It is not always possible to predict the | :48:14. | :48:16. | |
course of events but I think the commitment was made on March 31 for | :48:17. | :48:24. | |
April 19. Members will recall, and others will be aware that on the | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
18th -- the 19th of April this House debated to facilitate the calling of | :48:29. | :48:34. | |
an early general election and thereafter there was a small amount | :48:35. | :48:37. | |
of business and what we normally call the wash up session and then we | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
departed to our constituencies so there was no debate and vote. That | :48:44. | :48:50. | |
is how I remember it. It is not desirable for the chair to be asked | :48:51. | :48:54. | |
to take sides between the parties and I am not taking flights between | :48:55. | :48:58. | |
the parties and I certainly do not take sides on the merits or demerits | :48:59. | :49:02. | |
of this issue, the Speaker should not do that. I had thought there was | :49:03. | :49:07. | |
an expectation of a debate and vote and I had thought that the | :49:08. | :49:12. | |
opposition had done what was necessary to maximise the chance of | :49:13. | :49:17. | |
such a vote and I thought the government, to be honest, was open | :49:18. | :49:22. | |
to such a debate and vote until events overtook. That is history and | :49:23. | :49:26. | |
we are where we are and as to whether there is to be a substantive | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
vote now, I await the development of events. I am feeling fed a note. | :49:33. | :49:49. | |
Yes. Well, that is very helpful. Our senior clerks don't have the details | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
but we believe you are correct. We can check. I am very grateful to the | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
clerk who is extremely committed to the public service. Thank you. Thank | :50:02. | :50:10. | |
you, Mr Speaker. It is a fundamental principle of the SNP that education | :50:11. | :50:13. | |
should be based on the ability to learn, not the ability to pay. SNP | :50:14. | :50:21. | |
MPs have a strong and principled record of opposing increases in | :50:22. | :50:25. | |
tuition fees in England and where is and, if able, we will reject any | :50:26. | :50:30. | |
bill that seeks to increase the financial burden on students. I | :50:31. | :50:34. | |
personally lobbied my predecessor in this place in 1997 on the | :50:35. | :50:42. | |
introduction of student fees then. I had never met him before and I think | :50:43. | :50:46. | |
he's still remembers that meeting because I was incensed at the idea | :50:47. | :50:53. | |
that students should have to pay fees. To have it introduced from a | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
Labour government I found particularly objectionable, | :50:58. | :51:01. | |
especially as so many of them had gone to university themselves and | :51:02. | :51:04. | |
then pulled the ladder up behind them. The Scottish National Party, | :51:05. | :51:13. | |
neither they nor myself have changed our views on the fact that education | :51:14. | :51:19. | |
must be based on the ability to learn, not the ability to pay. The | :51:20. | :51:27. | |
SNP commitment is firm and unequivocal. In 2007 the SNP 's | :51:28. | :51:32. | |
Scottish Government abolished tuition fees and in Scotland the | :51:33. | :51:39. | |
tuition fee policy benefits 120,000 undergraduate students every year, | :51:40. | :51:44. | |
saving them from accruing debts of up to ?27,000 compared with their | :51:45. | :51:49. | |
peers in other parts of the UK. Can I just make a bit more progress, | :51:50. | :51:54. | |
please? The SNP will always guarantee to keep access to | :51:55. | :51:57. | |
education based on the ability to learn, not the ability to pay. Since | :51:58. | :52:03. | |
we came to office in Scotland a number of Scottish domiciled | :52:04. | :52:07. | |
full-time first degree entrants has risen by 12%. It is also about our | :52:08. | :52:12. | |
values and the kind of Scotland we want to live in. Scotland as a whole | :52:13. | :52:18. | |
values free access to higher education, as do we. Unlike the | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
Tories in Scotland we have no intention of killing our young | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
people for their education, either upfront or after they have | :52:28. | :52:34. | |
graduated. NUS Scotland president said in 2050 that the idea that | :52:35. | :52:38. | |
abolishing free education, a clear recognition of the public and social | :52:39. | :52:44. | |
good, provided by higher education, that that would improve their | :52:45. | :52:50. | |
access, seems bizarre. Almost as bizarre as the Secretary of State | :52:51. | :52:53. | |
for the environment 's recent comments on the Andrew Marr Show, | :52:54. | :52:57. | |
where he actually stated that only graduates benefit from their | :52:58. | :53:02. | |
studies. As a Scot, has he not heard of the common wheel? Everyone | :53:03. | :53:11. | |
benefits. Society benefits from a higher tax take, it benefits by the | :53:12. | :53:17. | |
example of teachers and doctors and lawyers and sometimes maybe even MPs | :53:18. | :53:23. | |
for examples. I will give way. Has the honourable lady read the report | :53:24. | :53:29. | |
by the Sutton trust, the social mobility charity, which was | :53:30. | :53:32. | |
absolutely damning about social mobility in Scotland as a specific | :53:33. | :53:37. | |
result of the SNP policy of capping places, and does she not deprecate | :53:38. | :53:40. | |
the fact that social mobility in Scotland is going into reverse? I | :53:41. | :53:45. | |
thank the honourable member for his intervention. I totally disagree | :53:46. | :53:49. | |
with him because I am going to come onto this further on in my speech | :53:50. | :53:54. | |
and I have practice and it is about the fact that Scottish education | :53:55. | :54:00. | |
differs and weighs into and ways to progress through Scottish education | :54:01. | :54:06. | |
are completely atypical. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. -- | :54:07. | :54:09. | |
should share my work frustration at the blatant gas lighting going on | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
around the numbers of people in Scotland from disadvantaged | :54:17. | :54:17. | |
backgrounds attending university in she agree with me that our young | :54:18. | :54:21. | |
people of many pathways to university and if children are | :54:22. | :54:24. | |
coming through further education colleges are included in UCAS | :54:25. | :54:27. | |
figures, as I understand it, there are significantly higher numbers of | :54:28. | :54:32. | |
young from disadvantaged backgrounds in Scotland going through to | :54:33. | :54:35. | |
university in that way than in the rest of the UK. I thank my | :54:36. | :54:41. | |
honourable friend for her intervention and I have personal | :54:42. | :54:44. | |
experience of that as a former further education lecturer. Indeed, | :54:45. | :54:50. | |
I am going to disseminate my wisdom on this when I take up my place on | :54:51. | :54:56. | |
the education committee and I see the chair is sitting on the back | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
benches opposite. It is a well-known canard, because things are different | :55:03. | :55:06. | |
you cannot measure Scottish education by the same yardsticks | :55:07. | :55:10. | |
that you use in England and where is because it is different. I do thank | :55:11. | :55:16. | |
the member for giving way and this point is one I have been trying to | :55:17. | :55:20. | |
make for some time which is that we do do things slightly different in | :55:21. | :55:24. | |
Scotland. I once was a member of another place. The scrutiny of | :55:25. | :55:29. | |
subordinate legislation in Scotland was very thorough indeed and it is | :55:30. | :55:32. | |
considered whether it should be positive or negative or otherwise | :55:33. | :55:35. | |
and at the heart of the problem here is that the instrument to which the | :55:36. | :55:40. | |
act refers is perhaps a little too Draconian in the powers that it | :55:41. | :55:44. | |
gives the governing party and maybe the fault lies in what was | :55:45. | :55:50. | |
originally agreed those months ago and maybe the role of the House does | :55:51. | :55:56. | |
not make it suitably strong. I thank the honourable gentleman for his | :55:57. | :56:01. | |
intervention and I welcome him to his place. Yes, I think there are so | :56:02. | :56:04. | |
many differences that trying to compare apples and pears just | :56:05. | :56:11. | |
doesn't work. The number of... Sorry. I am grateful to the | :56:12. | :56:15. | |
honourable lady for giving way but there are international comparators | :56:16. | :56:18. | |
and the fact is that the SNP government record in Scotland on | :56:19. | :56:22. | |
education as a national disgrace. There are 4000 fewer teachers, class | :56:23. | :56:27. | |
sizes up, and of the increase in students going to university, ten | :56:28. | :56:30. | |
times more coming from the wealthiest backgrounds that the | :56:31. | :56:33. | |
poorest backgrounds and the gap is widening under an SNP government. If | :56:34. | :56:39. | |
the honourable member will listen to the end of my speech, he will find I | :56:40. | :56:45. | |
have completely refuted what he is saying because there are facts that | :56:46. | :56:47. | |
tell a different story and just as an aside, Larry Flanagan, the | :56:48. | :56:53. | |
secretary of the EIS in Scotland has stood up and said that Scottish | :56:54. | :56:58. | |
education is not in the parlous state that is described, ascribed to | :56:59. | :57:06. | |
it by other parties. That is one of your own colleagues, I believe. Now, | :57:07. | :57:14. | |
since Scottish domiciled full-time first degree university entrance | :57:15. | :57:23. | |
raised from 12% in 2006/72 finish up a 28,770 and 50% of these people are | :57:24. | :57:30. | |
women. The SNP firmly believe that access to university, as I have | :57:31. | :57:34. | |
said, is about the ability to learn and to support this the SNP | :57:35. | :57:38. | |
government have invested record levels of funding in our | :57:39. | :57:44. | |
universities, 5 billion since 2012/13 with a further 1 billion | :57:45. | :57:51. | |
planned in 2017/ 18. The latest UCAS that had shown a drop in you -- the | :57:52. | :57:58. | |
UK domiciled students applying to institutions but it is not | :57:59. | :58:02. | |
necessarily a negative. It is further evidence that the approach | :58:03. | :58:05. | |
taken in Scotland to ensuring young people have equal choices and | :58:06. | :58:10. | |
chances to succeed in life is working. For example, youth | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
unemployment has fallen from 14% since 2007 and it now stands at 8.4% | :58:16. | :58:21. | |
and it continues to be amongst the lowest of all EU countries. A record | :58:22. | :58:26. | |
proportion of young peoples from Scotland's most deprived communities | :58:27. | :58:30. | |
are continuing their education, entering training or getting a job | :58:31. | :58:37. | |
after they leave school, with 88.7% of school leavers from these | :58:38. | :58:41. | |
communities going on to a positive initial destination. The highest | :58:42. | :58:47. | |
ever proportion, and up since 2011/ 12. A record 93.3% of young people | :58:48. | :58:53. | |
continuing their education, going into training, or getting a job, | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
including modern apprenticeships after leaving school. This is a good | :58:59. | :59:03. | |
news story. They do not all want to go to university. Many of them want | :59:04. | :59:04. | |
to earn and learn. According to the Scottish funding | :59:05. | :59:15. | |
council, 85% of education students go on to a positive destinations | :59:16. | :59:19. | |
such as further study, training or employment. In 2015, almost 12,000 | :59:20. | :59:28. | |
more students in higher education at college successfully completed | :59:29. | :59:33. | |
full-time courses leading to a recognised qualification than in | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
2008-9. I know about this because I taught in a further education | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
college. People locally and in the most deprived areas of West Lothian | :59:44. | :59:49. | |
where I taught started in further education colleges aged 16 and | :59:50. | :59:57. | |
sometimes 15. They progressed through college. They did further | :59:58. | :00:01. | |
education for maybe one or two years in the same place, they then | :00:02. | :00:08. | |
continued into higher education courses and higher national stiff -- | :00:09. | :00:11. | |
certificate and diploma level, and were then able to articulate into | :00:12. | :00:19. | |
second or third year of Scottish universities, and that's how it's | :00:20. | :00:25. | |
done in Scotland. And it was my privilege to be part of the | :00:26. | :00:28. | |
educational journey made by these people. Some of whom were the | :00:29. | :00:38. | |
worst... From the worst areas. I remember one woman student who got | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
pregnant at 15, had to leave school, came back to university, I | :00:44. | :00:47. | |
interviewed her, saw her potential, she had no formal qualifications, | :00:48. | :00:50. | |
and yet she ended up with a degree. And no debt. So I think that answers | :00:51. | :00:57. | |
the honourable gentleman's question on social mobility. Thanks to free | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
tuition, Scotland is making progress towards achieving the target of 20% | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
of students entering university to be from Scotland's 20% most deprived | :01:10. | :01:15. | |
communities. There is no doubt the SNP's investment in additional | :01:16. | :01:19. | |
places for access students... My husband was an access student! He | :01:20. | :01:24. | |
decided to go to university aged 65. He joined the local at that time | :01:25. | :01:30. | |
Motherwell College and took an access programme, did year at | :01:31. | :01:35. | |
college and got a place at Glasgow University. He was unable to | :01:36. | :01:39. | |
continue his educational journey for various reasons but I know others, | :01:40. | :01:43. | |
many others, who have followed the same route. And not only do these | :01:44. | :01:48. | |
students go to former technical colleges or institutes of higher | :01:49. | :01:54. | |
technology, they go on to ancient universities as well. And that is | :01:55. | :01:58. | |
something to definitely be cherished and encouraged. With no fees. This | :01:59. | :02:08. | |
is why the Scottish Government continues to invest ?51 million a | :02:09. | :02:14. | |
year to support approximately 7000 places. Scotland's universities | :02:15. | :02:17. | |
continue to attract students from around the world with the number of | :02:18. | :02:24. | |
EU and international applications increasing by 6%, higher than the 2% | :02:25. | :02:29. | |
increase in the UK as a whole. This is good news for Scotland and we are | :02:30. | :02:33. | |
keen to welcome those who wish to come to Scotland to live, learn and | :02:34. | :02:40. | |
work. The Scottish Government is determined to support our valuable | :02:41. | :02:44. | |
higher education sector and our committed --. We are committed to | :02:45. | :02:47. | |
working with our universities to continue to attract the very best | :02:48. | :02:51. | |
students from around the world. The UK Government's failure to provide | :02:52. | :02:56. | |
an offer that goes far enough to EU nationals after Brexit has had a | :02:57. | :03:00. | |
worrying knock-on effect on applications in Scotland. Down here, | :03:01. | :03:10. | |
the Tories are all for front door fees, while back in Scotland, the | :03:11. | :03:15. | |
Tories are all about back door fees. If Ruth Davidson's Tories had had | :03:16. | :03:20. | |
their way in the 2016 election, we would see the introduction of the | :03:21. | :03:25. | |
?6,000 graduate tax in Scotland. And it would have to have been paid back | :03:26. | :03:32. | |
when the graduates earned ?20,000. While the UK Tories want to stop | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
international students from studying in the UK through the abolition of | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
the vital post study work visa, the Scottish Tories wanted their EU | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
students by threatening them with additional taxes. The Scottish | :03:48. | :03:56. | |
Government has pledged to make sure they won't repay loan debt till they | :03:57. | :04:04. | |
are earning ?22,000. They will have to be earning at least ?22,000 and | :04:05. | :04:09. | |
if a small country like Scotland can do this, you know... Over the last | :04:10. | :04:13. | |
ten years, the SNP Scottish Government has worked hard to make | :04:14. | :04:16. | |
Scotland that this country it can be. It's no wonder that other | :04:17. | :04:20. | |
parties are now taking their lead from the SNP on tuition fees. Labour | :04:21. | :04:26. | |
and Tories oppose the progressive SNP policies tooth and nail for a | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
decade. Now they've changed their minds. The SNP has oppose tuition | :04:31. | :04:34. | |
fees since they were first introduced by Labour in 1997. They | :04:35. | :04:40. | |
scrap them in 2008 and now Labour have said they will follow our lead | :04:41. | :04:46. | |
in England. Imitation is indeed the sincerest form of flattery. Average | :04:47. | :04:52. | |
student loan debt in Scotland continues to be the lowest in the | :04:53. | :05:00. | |
UK. 10,500 in Scotland compared to 24,000 ?640 per student in 1516 -- | :05:01. | :05:16. | |
?24,640 per student in 20 1516. We raise the income threshold for the | :05:17. | :05:21. | |
maximum bursary from 17 to 19,000. This will benefit an additional 2500 | :05:22. | :05:27. | |
young students and 400 independent students. Is it not the case that | :05:28. | :05:34. | |
further education budgets in Scotland have been continually cut, | :05:35. | :05:39. | |
and this has led to a cut of 152,000 of our young students in Scotland? | :05:40. | :05:44. | |
Isn't it high time to do what the Conservative Party manifesto did and | :05:45. | :05:47. | |
pledged to reverse these cuts so we are giving these young people a fair | :05:48. | :05:55. | |
chance in life? May I refute that? When I started, and I started | :05:56. | :06:00. | |
teaching in further education in Scotland in 1992, there were many | :06:01. | :06:04. | |
courses in Scottish further education colleges which were in | :06:05. | :06:08. | |
fact not vocational, they were leisure courses. In fact there was a | :06:09. | :06:14. | |
very successful one at West Lothian College where people my age now used | :06:15. | :06:19. | |
to go in and spend six hours a week doing art. The Scottish Government | :06:20. | :06:22. | |
cut funding for courses like that and increased funding for vocational | :06:23. | :06:27. | |
training. They also do huge programmes where if there has been a | :06:28. | :06:33. | |
big loss of jobs locally, the first thing that happens when they send in | :06:34. | :06:39. | |
a task force is the local colleges in there as well, providing | :06:40. | :06:43. | |
short-term training courses. More people leave further education now | :06:44. | :06:46. | |
with good qualifications and that's what matters. That is totally what | :06:47. | :06:56. | |
matters. No, I'd like to... Yes. I'd like to continue. I'm sorry. I'm | :06:57. | :07:03. | |
feeling a little dizzy, to be fair. Now, the SNP government isn't | :07:04. | :07:06. | |
complacent on the issue and are committed to doing more to support | :07:07. | :07:14. | |
students. They want to make sure supporters equitable and fair for | :07:15. | :07:17. | |
students, particularly the most vulnerable, which is why the | :07:18. | :07:21. | |
Scottish Government has announced and is conducting a comprehensive | :07:22. | :07:25. | |
review on student support with an independent chair and a wide range | :07:26. | :07:29. | |
of membership from Scotland's colleges to the National Union of | :07:30. | :07:33. | |
Students and different other bodies. If you persist... She has been very | :07:34. | :07:42. | |
generous giving way. She's talking about the most vulnerable students | :07:43. | :07:44. | |
in Scotland and she also talks about being able to work and learn. Can | :07:45. | :07:49. | |
she explained by the Scottish Government receives the | :07:50. | :07:51. | |
apprenticeship levy and yet is only able to sponsor only a very modest | :07:52. | :07:57. | |
30,000 apprenticeships, when 3 million apprenticeships have been | :07:58. | :07:59. | |
awarded in the UK over the last Parliament? Yes. It will take longer | :08:00. | :08:04. | |
than I have, but let me say one thing to that. They consulted with | :08:05. | :08:09. | |
businesses in Scotland because Scottish Government was already | :08:10. | :08:14. | |
doing good work with businesses and encouraging businesses to take on | :08:15. | :08:19. | |
modern apprenticeships. And modern apprenticeships were far further | :08:20. | :08:24. | |
advanced. The Scottish Government did not just make decisions for | :08:25. | :08:28. | |
themselves. Actually it was an imposition almost on the Scottish | :08:29. | :08:33. | |
Government, because we have a devolved Parliament that deals with | :08:34. | :08:37. | |
issues like training and education. So when the UK Government introduced | :08:38. | :08:41. | |
the new levy for all employers, we consulted with those employers and | :08:42. | :08:44. | |
it was in agreement that we went forward. I'm not really prepared to | :08:45. | :08:49. | |
take many more interventions. I've almost finished. In England, the | :08:50. | :08:59. | |
terrible decision to... Sorry, in England and Wales, the decision to | :09:00. | :09:05. | |
introduce fees and scrap bursaries for nurses is clearly having a | :09:06. | :09:11. | |
massive effect. There is a 23% fall on last year in England. We remain | :09:12. | :09:15. | |
committed to free tuition fees and protecting the nonsense -- non-means | :09:16. | :09:21. | |
tested, nonrepayable nursing and midwifery bursary, which we believe | :09:22. | :09:25. | |
is essential to insure a steady supply of trainees into the | :09:26. | :09:31. | |
profession. -- to ensure a steady supply. If you want a highly | :09:32. | :09:36. | |
educated workforce you should follow Scotland's example. After all, | :09:37. | :09:39. | |
Scotland ranks at the top of the world statistics with Canada and | :09:40. | :09:45. | |
Russia. 45% of Scotland's population aged between 25 and 64 are educated | :09:46. | :09:52. | |
to degree level. Will the minister consider doing what the Scottish | :09:53. | :09:57. | |
Government has done so well? Don't attempt to increase fees for | :09:58. | :09:59. | |
students in England and Wales. Abolish them. We have world-class | :10:00. | :10:06. | |
universities as well, and what the Scottish Government does works. | :10:07. | :10:12. | |
Thank you. I call the chair of the Education Select Committee. The | :10:13. | :10:18. | |
honourable gentleman is welcome to speak from a seated position if he | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
wishes, as we have discussed. Thank you. This is an important debate and | :10:25. | :10:28. | |
I have huge respect for my honourable friend, the minister, and | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
all the work he has done to make a university sector better in making | :10:34. | :10:36. | |
sure students from all backgrounds have the chance to climb the ladder | :10:37. | :10:42. | |
of opportunity. When we consider student fees, we've got a duty of | :10:43. | :10:47. | |
fairness, both to the taxpayer and the student, and it's right that the | :10:48. | :10:50. | |
taxpayer doesn't bear the burden alone. I do think there are a number | :10:51. | :10:56. | |
of principles that need to be clear when it comes to tuition fees. The | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
first, that we help students from disadvantaged backgrounds not just | :11:02. | :11:04. | |
get on that ladder of opportunity but actually get to the top. The | :11:05. | :11:09. | |
second is that the interest rates that are charged off air for | :11:10. | :11:14. | |
students, and the third is value for money. -- that are charged off their | :11:15. | :11:28. | |
-- which are charged are fair. This year we've heard the numbers of | :11:29. | :11:32. | |
working-class students entering top universities had fallen over the | :11:33. | :11:37. | |
last decade. Although more of our poorest young people entering | :11:38. | :11:40. | |
university, many are winning places at the lower and middle ranked | :11:41. | :11:44. | |
institutions rather than those that will offer the best opportunities | :11:45. | :11:50. | |
for higher earning graduate careers. Disadvantaged graduates will suffer | :11:51. | :11:54. | |
even more acutely than their more affluent peers on graduation but | :11:55. | :11:59. | |
they will also suffer a class pay gap, which means professional | :12:00. | :12:03. | |
employees from poorer backgrounds are paid almost ?7,000 a year less | :12:04. | :12:06. | |
than their peers from more privileged families. The honourable | :12:07. | :12:13. | |
gentleman, my honourable friend, I should say, spoke powerfully about | :12:14. | :12:16. | |
what he wanted to do to improve the prospects of part-time students who | :12:17. | :12:23. | |
recognise the figures that had declined, and I welcome those and | :12:24. | :12:26. | |
urge him to do everything possible to support those part-time students, | :12:27. | :12:32. | |
particularly single parents on low incomes who may fear going to | :12:33. | :12:34. | |
university because of the level of the loan. What does value for money | :12:35. | :12:42. | |
mean in terms of a university education? Why is it that | :12:43. | :12:47. | |
universities can charge fees but there is such a variation in the | :12:48. | :12:52. | |
jobs that students find? And I know that my honourable friend has done a | :12:53. | :12:57. | |
lot of work on this and the new measurements that he has introduced. | :12:58. | :13:01. | |
But surely the time has come to look at the level of fees compared to the | :13:02. | :13:07. | |
destination data? The reason, as I say, why people go to university, Mr | :13:08. | :13:11. | |
Speaker, is to crime that ladder of prosperity, to improve the skills of | :13:12. | :13:16. | |
-- is to climb that ladder and improve the skills and prosperity of | :13:17. | :13:20. | |
our nation. If they are paying ?9,000 plus and get a good job, job | :13:21. | :13:24. | |
done. If they are not, we need to ask the reasons why. | :13:25. | :13:33. | |
He is making an excellent argument and does that not focus attention on | :13:34. | :13:39. | |
the UDP and threshold because that almost reinforces the point he is | :13:40. | :13:45. | |
making. If you make that you are paying back and if not you are not | :13:46. | :13:52. | |
doing it anyway. I think that we need to look very carefully at the | :13:53. | :13:56. | |
salaries of senior management of universities. If there are | :13:57. | :14:02. | |
significant increases in the salary of top management but poor | :14:03. | :14:08. | |
destinations then something is going wrong. I do not mind what people are | :14:09. | :14:13. | |
running at every single person who leaves gets a good job at the end of | :14:14. | :14:17. | |
it, but if they are not then I cannot understand why some | :14:18. | :14:23. | |
chancellors are receiving huge increases in their pay but failing | :14:24. | :14:31. | |
to provide good outcomes, and I am not naming those universities today. | :14:32. | :14:38. | |
He is making a very powerful and considered speech. One area we can | :14:39. | :14:44. | |
also look at is the length of university courses as well. The | :14:45. | :14:48. | |
years for some courses does seem long considering the number of | :14:49. | :14:53. | |
teaching hours. My honourable friend comes on to a point that I want to | :14:54. | :14:58. | |
come to, which is in terms of not just the length but the way our | :14:59. | :15:05. | |
terms are structured. I said that the beginning of my remarks that the | :15:06. | :15:09. | |
burden on taxpayers need to be fair but we also need to be sure that the | :15:10. | :15:14. | |
burden on students is fear. My constituent, who entered university, | :15:15. | :15:22. | |
hard bit is around ?45,000 including the maintenance loan. I am not | :15:23. | :15:27. | |
against student loans. I don't think that it's fear for working people in | :15:28. | :15:32. | |
my constituency the full burden of paying for all students devote | :15:33. | :15:38. | |
university, however, I do think that value for money also means the level | :15:39. | :15:42. | |
of interest rates, and in the United States the level of interest rates | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
is much lower. As my honourable friend has just said, they have | :15:47. | :15:51. | |
quite a few months in the year where students can go out and have more | :15:52. | :15:55. | |
opportunities to work and pay back the loans, I think that too many | :15:56. | :16:02. | |
people, that interest rates, which is quite high as he will know, does | :16:03. | :16:09. | |
put people off, and I encourage him to look at this and see what can be | :16:10. | :16:13. | |
done to possibly have similar system like in the United States. Not all | :16:14. | :16:20. | |
courses on institutions offer the same opportunities for employment | :16:21. | :16:24. | |
after graduating. He has still a degree from a Russell group | :16:25. | :16:31. | |
universities Cadell nude double the same degree from a less litigious | :16:32. | :16:35. | |
institution. University graduates out our they are non-grad peers but | :16:36. | :16:42. | |
the gap seems to be narrowing. The value of degree declines as the | :16:43. | :16:48. | |
supply of graduates has outstripped demand, and the IFS recently warned | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
that further increases in the number of graduates would lead to financial | :16:52. | :16:56. | |
gains of a degree lessening. If I could make a final point which my | :16:57. | :16:59. | |
honourable friend will note I am very passionate about. Everyone | :17:00. | :17:06. | |
knows that I strongly believe in apprenticeships, and the menace that | :17:07. | :17:10. | |
is a huge supporter of degree apprenticeships. It is very | :17:11. | :17:15. | |
important that all students know there is a choice, a chance that we | :17:16. | :17:20. | |
can offer people an apprenticeship all the way from level two up to | :17:21. | :17:26. | |
degree level. I think we need as much investment as possible because | :17:27. | :17:31. | |
there is no alone, they earn more money, they are virtually guaranteed | :17:32. | :17:36. | |
to get a job after words, they get skills and training that they need, | :17:37. | :17:41. | |
and it would be a huge burden to people from disadvantaged | :17:42. | :17:53. | |
backgrounds. -- huge boon. This would transform the nature of the | :17:54. | :17:56. | |
debate, particularly for those from disadvantaged backgrounds. Thank | :17:57. | :18:02. | |
you, at this stage as colleagues will be aware I have not imposed any | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
time limit on backbench speeches, and would prefer not to have to do | :18:07. | :18:13. | |
so, but it might be a helpful guide to colleagues if I say that a seven | :18:14. | :18:19. | |
minute speech by each colleague would probably enable live to | :18:20. | :18:23. | |
contribute. If somebody goes on longer, let that member be clear, he | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
or she is stopping other members from speaking which would seem | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
rather unfair. Thank you and I am pleased to follow the honourable | :18:33. | :18:36. | |
member, I congratulate him on his election to the chair of the select | :18:37. | :18:40. | |
committee and his thoughtful contribution to the debate, which I | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
am sure bodes well for the future. I represent more students than any | :18:47. | :18:51. | |
other member of this house, some 36,000 at the last count, and | :18:52. | :18:54. | |
consequently cheer the all-party parliamentary group on students. I | :18:55. | :19:00. | |
represent many post-2012 graduates as well. We have been described as | :19:01. | :19:05. | |
generation rent and we may well describe them as generation debt. | :19:06. | :19:09. | |
The poor are the family they come from the greater the debt as a | :19:10. | :19:14. | |
result of the government's actions, the IFS have reported debts of up to | :19:15. | :19:21. | |
?57,000. It is five years since the coalition government forced through | :19:22. | :19:25. | |
the ?9,000 fees, but the impact is only beginning to take effect. This | :19:26. | :19:33. | |
recent election was the first to be held some students started | :19:34. | :19:38. | |
graduating, with the debt as a consequence of ?9,000 fees. In May | :19:39. | :19:43. | |
2015 they hadn't started to, and as a consequence the issue took centre | :19:44. | :19:50. | |
stage in the election. And it's not just for generation debt but for the | :19:51. | :19:56. | |
parents do and it is an issue apparently for some senior members | :19:57. | :20:02. | |
of the government, because even the Prime Minister's deputy, the first | :20:03. | :20:07. | |
Secretary of State, says we need to have, in a way that contradicts the | :20:08. | :20:10. | |
confidence of the minister, a National D-Day on the issue, and he | :20:11. | :20:17. | |
is right, we do. This is only an opening salvo. We need to look at | :20:18. | :20:20. | |
how we can provide the funding that our universities need to maintain | :20:21. | :20:25. | |
the world leading position and we need to do it without burdening our | :20:26. | :20:30. | |
young people with unsustainable debt and that is the big challenge, and | :20:31. | :20:34. | |
there are some immediate things the government could do as well. | :20:35. | :20:38. | |
Firstly, they could scrap the proposed increase in interest rates | :20:39. | :20:49. | |
to 6.1% from the current 4.6%. Mr Speaker, 6.1%, when base rate is | :20:50. | :20:55. | |
0.25 and average mortgages are less than 4%, this is an automatic rise | :20:56. | :21:02. | |
based on a formula of RPI plus 3%, well, the formula is wrong. It means | :21:03. | :21:07. | |
is estimated that students are accruing an average of ?5,800 of | :21:08. | :21:14. | |
debt and interest during their studies, before they even have the | :21:15. | :21:19. | |
chance to start paying it off. And as the former skills minister and | :21:20. | :21:25. | |
member for Grantham and Stanford argued, it is unutterably depressing | :21:26. | :21:33. | |
for hard-working students to see the amount they all spiralling up boards | :21:34. | :21:37. | |
before they have even started paying it off, and the greatest burden is | :21:38. | :21:41. | |
on the students from the poorest holds, so will the Minister today | :21:42. | :21:46. | |
hear what his colleagues are saying. Hear what students and parents are | :21:47. | :21:50. | |
saying, what the House is saying, and commit to press the Chancellor | :21:51. | :21:55. | |
to scrap the proposed increase in the interest rate and to review the | :21:56. | :22:01. | |
formula. The second thing the government should do immediately is | :22:02. | :22:05. | |
reintroduced maintenance grants for students from low-income households. | :22:06. | :22:09. | |
That was a central part of the package put together in 2012. | :22:10. | :22:14. | |
Whether that commitment, this house would probably not have passed the | :22:15. | :22:19. | |
proposals which saw tuition fees rise because it mitigated the impact | :22:20. | :22:25. | |
of trebling the those fees, and frankly, to scrap plans for the | :22:26. | :22:29. | |
poorest at the first opportunity after the election says a lot about | :22:30. | :22:33. | |
this government's priorities and went a long way to undermining | :22:34. | :22:38. | |
confidence in the system. While we on the question of confidence in the | :22:39. | :22:42. | |
system, the government should think again on the retrospective changes | :22:43. | :22:49. | |
to the of repayment. Making graduates pay for their | :22:50. | :22:52. | |
miscalculation of the cost of the funding system and the escalating | :22:53. | :22:56. | |
charge, the minister says it was a conscious decision and he knows well | :22:57. | :23:01. | |
enough the conscious decision that has predecessor took to the House | :23:02. | :23:07. | |
was a charge of 28%. That rose into the 40% early and was model that | :23:08. | :23:11. | |
more than 50% and the government acted by making graduates pay for | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
the consequences of their miscalculation. Before the 2015 | :23:18. | :23:22. | |
general election, anticipating this, I asked ministers for assurances | :23:23. | :23:25. | |
that they wouldn't be making students pay for their mistakes by | :23:26. | :23:29. | |
changing the terms of the 2012 system. And the Minister's | :23:30. | :23:35. | |
predecessor told me there were no plans to do so. Running into the | :23:36. | :23:40. | |
election, promised to students now plans to change the terms of the | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
repayments, and no sooner were the votes counted than the plans were | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
rolled out in the 2015 budget, freezing DD payment threshold, | :23:51. | :23:52. | |
making graduates pay more than they signed up for and the members talk | :23:53. | :23:57. | |
about broken promises. There could be no worse breach of faith, | :23:58. | :24:03. | |
promise, breach of contract, than that retrospective change. It is | :24:04. | :24:07. | |
frankly fraudulent and were any other organisation in the Financial | :24:08. | :24:13. | |
Conduct would get involved, and it undermines conduct in the system and | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
should be reversed. -- Financial Conduct Authority. Let me highlight | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
one further thing that should be changed and that is the decision to | :24:23. | :24:27. | |
scrap bursaries and introduce fees and loans for midwifery and health | :24:28. | :24:33. | |
courses. Backward we debated the issue, the then health minister told | :24:34. | :24:38. | |
ministers that the government wanted, and I quote, to spread to | :24:39. | :24:45. | |
nurses the same benefits that have been realised in the rest of the | :24:46. | :24:50. | |
student population. Some of us in that debate expressed some | :24:51. | :24:55. | |
scepticism that nurses and midwives would see ?30,000 of debt as a | :24:56. | :25:00. | |
benefit, and we warned that those courses that still provided a route | :25:01. | :25:04. | |
into professional careers from those put off university by thieves, | :25:05. | :25:08. | |
mature students and those from other low-income backgrounds, we warned | :25:09. | :25:13. | |
applications would fall at a time when we need more nurses, and those | :25:14. | :25:20. | |
concerns were cavalierly dismissed by this government. -- put off | :25:21. | :25:30. | |
university by fees. In Sheffield you -- in Sheffield Hallam University we | :25:31. | :25:36. | |
have seen a drop of 22% in numbers. The government were clearly wrong | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
and they have been wrong time and again. We need a fresh start in this | :25:40. | :25:47. | |
whole policy area. Thank you, Mr Speaker. At the general election the | :25:48. | :25:51. | |
party opposite managed to rally an extraordinary number of young people | :25:52. | :25:55. | |
to their cause. In one constituency we even had young people standing on | :25:56. | :26:01. | |
roundabouts with vote Labour signs. I am sure many members opposite will | :26:02. | :26:04. | |
concede that they have those warts to thank for a vast place in the | :26:05. | :26:10. | |
House today. It is not easy to see why students were attempted. Not | :26:11. | :26:13. | |
only did they promise to abolish tuition fees but top of forgetting | :26:14. | :26:19. | |
all student loan debt, an extraordinary expensive undertaking. | :26:20. | :26:22. | |
I wonder what those young voters must think now that really a month | :26:23. | :26:27. | |
on from the election, desperately trying as they are to downgrade this | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
to an aspiration, or to look at Wales, the only corner of the | :26:33. | :26:35. | |
kingdom where the party opposite Alan Power, actually increasing | :26:36. | :26:42. | |
fees, despite having attacked them during the campaign. What goes | :26:43. | :26:45. | |
around comes around and I will inform the House today that the film | :26:46. | :26:49. | |
of the Labour Party effectively backtracking on this promise has | :26:50. | :26:56. | |
been sheared 1.3 million times, so perhaps at the next general election | :26:57. | :26:59. | |
those roundabouts will not be quite so full of young students holding up | :27:00. | :27:06. | |
signs for the party opposite. Perhaps the Labour Party now realise | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
they are progressive elements to the tuition fees system. I will not give | :27:11. | :27:15. | |
way at the moment. Loans are available on the progressive system | :27:16. | :27:18. | |
to everybody. They are only paid back when the student is earning | :27:19. | :27:24. | |
enough to afford it, and when the amount is repaid and skills up with | :27:25. | :27:28. | |
income. Effectively student loans are type of graduate tax rather than | :27:29. | :27:36. | |
a tax on everyone, and everyone who doesn't go to university. No balers | :27:37. | :27:40. | |
are sent out to collect on student loans and after 30 years any | :27:41. | :27:43. | |
outstanding debt is forgiven by the government. No other Lohan has so | :27:44. | :27:51. | |
many protections built in for a low incomes. But to focus narrowly on | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
the repayment structure is to ignore so much of what makes the current | :27:55. | :27:57. | |
system a good deal for the less advantaged students. It secures more | :27:58. | :28:03. | |
places and higher quality teaching. I know there is a lot of the style | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
in some circles for the days when university was free, but too often | :28:09. | :28:12. | |
those people fail to acknowledge that this was only possible because | :28:13. | :28:16. | |
the proportion of school leavers who went on to higher education was | :28:17. | :28:19. | |
tiny. I was the first member and my family to go to university. I come | :28:20. | :28:25. | |
from a council house and it was an unusual event at my school, to go to | :28:26. | :28:30. | |
university, to such an extent that actually when they found out I had a | :28:31. | :28:34. | |
place, I and a few people in my school work called on stage and at | :28:35. | :28:38. | |
the time I went to university, only one in ten were able to take the | :28:39. | :28:42. | |
advantage is that I have and I don't want us to go back there under any | :28:43. | :28:44. | |
circumstances. When the previous Labour government | :28:45. | :28:54. | |
decided to massively expand higher education, the Costa University 's | :28:55. | :28:57. | |
balloon. It was rightly decided that those who stood to benefit should | :28:58. | :29:02. | |
shoulder a share of the cost. The alternative was funding the entire | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
cost from general taxation, shifting the burden to millions of people who | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
have never had higher education or leaving it to universities to fill | :29:12. | :29:15. | |
budget gaps themselves. Scotland illustrates the dangers of this | :29:16. | :29:20. | |
approach. Local students, especially those from disadvantaged | :29:21. | :29:24. | |
backgrounds, have been consistently squeezed out of Scottish | :29:25. | :29:34. | |
universities in favour of fee-paying international students. I will not | :29:35. | :29:36. | |
give way. Actually, I will. As all studies show, the introduction of | :29:37. | :29:39. | |
fees in England has seen an increase in students from poorer backgrounds. | :29:40. | :29:42. | |
On Scotland, it used to be that Scotland said to the rest of the UK | :29:43. | :29:46. | |
we have a gold standard in education. I think it is a matter of | :29:47. | :29:50. | |
shame that the SNP has presided over the collapse of Scottish education | :29:51. | :29:56. | |
in the way that it has. You had your chance. As all studies show, the | :29:57. | :30:00. | |
introduction of fees in England has seen an increase in the number of | :30:01. | :30:04. | |
students from poorer backgrounds. Tuition fees up the opportunity to | :30:05. | :30:08. | |
study at the repayment structure shelters them if they do not get the | :30:09. | :30:14. | |
graduate dividends they hope for. Of course the current system is not | :30:15. | :30:18. | |
perfect, there are legitimate questions over interest rates on | :30:19. | :30:22. | |
loans, and especially about the fact that almost every university charges | :30:23. | :30:27. | |
the maximum amount of these. Press signal should be an important way | :30:28. | :30:31. | |
for students to gain the value of a degree course, and I think some | :30:32. | :30:35. | |
courses at too lob and if they were limited timescale it would bring | :30:36. | :30:40. | |
down the cost for all. But abolishing fees and giving debts | :30:41. | :30:45. | |
that will only be repaid by high earners and replace it with a system | :30:46. | :30:49. | |
which taxes those who do not benefit or Leeds University is fighting | :30:50. | :30:56. | |
other high income candidates will be a ferocious attack on opportunity | :30:57. | :31:03. | |
and social mobility. Thank you. Maiden speech, Liz twist. | :31:04. | :31:08. | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker for allowing me to make my maiden speech in this | :31:09. | :31:13. | |
important debate on tuition fees, a subject which came up time and time | :31:14. | :31:18. | |
again on the doorstep in Blaydon. I know this debate will be of interest | :31:19. | :31:22. | |
to many constituents. I would like to start by thanking the people of | :31:23. | :31:26. | |
Blaydon constituency for electing me to represent them here. It is a | :31:27. | :31:34. | |
great privilege. Some of you may one have heard of Blaydon through our | :31:35. | :31:39. | |
local anthem, The Blaydon Races, played proudly by many a brass band | :31:40. | :31:46. | |
at the Durham Miners' Keylor. You will be happy to hear that I will | :31:47. | :31:51. | |
not be bursting into song in this chamber, partly due to the Dann | :31:52. | :31:57. | |
decorum and a lack of musical talent. But it remains a scene and a | :31:58. | :32:02. | |
constant symbol of our proud and sometimes raucous local history. It | :32:03. | :32:07. | |
is customary in maiden speeches to talk about your predecessor, for me | :32:08. | :32:12. | |
it is not just a tradition but a matter of great personal pleasure to | :32:13. | :32:16. | |
talk about my great friends and comrades Dave Anderson. Dave said | :32:17. | :32:22. | |
Blaydon very well in the 12 years he was in this house and was and still | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
is a great champion of working people, not just in Blaydon but | :32:27. | :32:30. | |
throughout the trade union movement, working most recently on the shrews | :32:31. | :32:36. | |
be 24 campaign with Ricky Tomlinson. As a former Unison President, he | :32:37. | :32:41. | |
spoke up for the public service workers who do so much to deliver | :32:42. | :32:45. | |
the vital services we all need. Dave will also be remembered here for his | :32:46. | :32:52. | |
work as chair of the APPG on muscular dystrophy, a campaign close | :32:53. | :32:56. | |
to his heart as it affected his family, and for which he twice | :32:57. | :33:01. | |
achieved Charity champion awards. In my maiden speech I want to talk | :33:02. | :33:06. | |
about the community is making up the constituency, which takes in rural | :33:07. | :33:11. | |
areas, industrial sites macro and areas of great natural beauty, | :33:12. | :33:15. | |
representing the traditions past and present of Blaydon. From Chopwell in | :33:16. | :33:24. | |
the West, separated from county Durham by the River Derwent, known | :33:25. | :33:29. | |
as Little Moscow for its strong Socialist links, defined by its | :33:30. | :33:35. | |
strong community links Amber Chopwell Woods, thankfully saved | :33:36. | :33:42. | |
from being sold off in 2011. Moving to Crawcrook and Greenside, where I | :33:43. | :33:51. | |
was happy to open the community picnic last year. I opened at the | :33:52. | :33:55. | |
community and the band through the village on the way to Durham for the | :33:56. | :34:06. | |
miners' Gala. And onto Ryton with a beautiful way along the river Tyne. | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
The Blaydon horse races long replaced by a road race on the 9th | :34:11. | :34:14. | |
of June each year and where you can still see hundreds of people ganning | :34:15. | :34:23. | |
along Scotswood Road is, to take part in the and then to Whickham | :34:24. | :34:31. | |
where a lost garden was recreated. And also to the other former mining | :34:32. | :34:37. | |
community of Sunniside. Winlaton and high spend where the red kite | :34:38. | :34:40. | |
flourishes that are being reintroduced some years ago. It was | :34:41. | :34:43. | |
magnificent to see them high overhead as we knocked on doors. And | :34:44. | :34:48. | |
the communities of Birtley, lengthy, Kibblesworth on the magnificent | :34:49. | :34:53. | |
angel of the North. Created by Antony Gormley, it looms over the A1 | :34:54. | :34:57. | |
and surrounding landscape, demonstrating the strength and | :34:58. | :35:00. | |
endurance of our local communities. Sadly I never managed to identify | :35:01. | :35:13. | |
the angel's voting intentional but I think I could guess. Blaydon is open | :35:14. | :35:16. | |
for business, taking in much of the team Valley trading estate at the | :35:17. | :35:18. | |
Metrocentre, representing manufacturing and retail. And I must | :35:19. | :35:23. | |
mention Della Roux, which produces passports at Blaydon, and many | :35:24. | :35:30. | |
others. Like so many areas, the people of Blaydon have had much to | :35:31. | :35:35. | |
deal with. They have felt the impact of austerity. Too many of my | :35:36. | :35:40. | |
constituents have been hit hard by the bedroom tax, benefit sanctions, | :35:41. | :35:45. | |
reassessments for EFA or PIP, too many without money to buy the | :35:46. | :35:50. | |
necessities of life for family, like food or money to pay for gas and | :35:51. | :35:55. | |
electric. It is fortunate for them that we have a well-established food | :35:56. | :35:59. | |
bank in Blaydon, and I must pay tribute to the Reverend Tracey Hume | :36:00. | :36:14. | |
who has worked with so many volunteers to make sure that those | :36:15. | :36:18. | |
who need help get it. What they do is magnificent but should not be | :36:19. | :36:21. | |
needed in 2017. Then there are 1950s born women who tell me how badly | :36:22. | :36:24. | |
they have been hit by the equalisation of state pensions. It | :36:25. | :36:26. | |
cannot be right or just. I must declare an interest as a woman born | :36:27. | :36:29. | |
in the 1950s. Sadly, unlike me, most of them cannot take up an | :36:30. | :36:31. | |
apprenticeship in this house and must manage as best they can, but I | :36:32. | :36:36. | |
intend to do all I can to work for them. We all come to the house not | :36:37. | :36:41. | |
just with a passion for politics but a personal history influencing | :36:42. | :36:44. | |
issues we care about. I want to share mine. 17 years ago my husband | :36:45. | :36:50. | |
Charlie ended his life by suicide. Many of you in this House will be | :36:51. | :36:55. | |
affected by suicide, you only find out how many when it happens to you. | :36:56. | :37:00. | |
I do not ask for sympathy, I ask for your support for action to reduce | :37:01. | :37:04. | |
the number of people who take their lives. I am glad to be a Samaritans | :37:05. | :37:09. | |
listening volunteer, but we need deeds as well as words to prevent | :37:10. | :37:15. | |
suicide. In March this year Samaritans produced a report called | :37:16. | :37:21. | |
Dying From Inequality. A rigorous academic study has shown suicide | :37:22. | :37:26. | |
risk increases when people face and employment, job uncertainty and | :37:27. | :37:30. | |
poverty, the very problems faced by the constituents I have talked about | :37:31. | :37:34. | |
and many others. Two weeks ago I asked the Secretary of State for | :37:35. | :37:37. | |
Health what action he planned to take in light of the reported | :37:38. | :37:42. | |
anti-tilt me he always listen to the use of Samaritans, so I gave notice | :37:43. | :37:46. | |
I would press him and other government ministers to take real | :37:47. | :37:50. | |
action to tackle the causes leading to too many people taking their own | :37:51. | :37:54. | |
life. As the Samaritans chief executive | :37:55. | :37:58. | |
Rick Sutherland said, each suicide statistic as a person. The employee | :37:59. | :38:03. | |
on zero-hours contract is somebody's parent or child. A personal list of | :38:04. | :38:07. | |
Dutchman risk of losing their home might be a sibling or a friend, each | :38:08. | :38:13. | |
one will leave others devastated and potentially more disadvantaged if | :38:14. | :38:16. | |
they take their own life. This is a call for us as individuals to care | :38:17. | :38:19. | |
more and for organisations who can make a difference to do so. I thank | :38:20. | :38:30. | |
you for allowing me to speak in this debate and I will do all I can in | :38:31. | :38:33. | |
this House is my constituency to speak up for the people of Blaydon | :38:34. | :38:36. | |
and represent them in the best way that I can. I congratulate the | :38:37. | :38:40. | |
honourable lady Ahmad wonderful maiden speech. | :38:41. | :38:44. | |
James cartilage. A pleasure to be called and a great pleasure to | :38:45. | :38:47. | |
follow the honourable lady for Blaydon. I congratulate her on her | :38:48. | :38:53. | |
very moving and powerful maiden speech, especially in relation to | :38:54. | :38:56. | |
what she said about suicides. We all share that sentiment, it is a | :38:57. | :39:02. | |
terrible tragedy that so many still choose to take their own life. On | :39:03. | :39:06. | |
the point about the Blaydon and some, having stood on many a | :39:07. | :39:10. | |
football terrace hearing this song I am familiar with it, although on | :39:11. | :39:13. | |
those occasions the lyrics might not have been so repeatable in this | :39:14. | :39:18. | |
chamber, with the editor which they were subject. I congratulate her on | :39:19. | :39:22. | |
her maiden speech and welcome her to the House. An important subject, and | :39:23. | :39:28. | |
having intervened on the Shadow Minister earlier, I have great | :39:29. | :39:34. | |
sympathy with her in the way she has maintained her composure in the face | :39:35. | :39:38. | |
of this policy wobble over historic student debt. Nevertheless we have | :39:39. | :39:43. | |
to accept that when we look at what the Leader of the Opposition said to | :39:44. | :39:48. | |
the NME prior to the election, you could not form any other conclusion | :39:49. | :39:54. | |
than to conclude that he wished to wipe out historic student debt. He | :39:55. | :39:58. | |
said he would deal with it. Those were his words. What other | :39:59. | :40:02. | |
conclusion could you from? The politics of this is quite cynical. | :40:03. | :40:07. | |
If you talk about helping students, you are helping a large number of | :40:08. | :40:11. | |
people, but a limited base of people. If you spread your policies | :40:12. | :40:15. | |
to graduates with historic student debt you are appealing to a vast | :40:16. | :40:21. | |
number, Sowter Renee, so clearly, I think is disappointing and | :40:22. | :40:27. | |
deceptive. -- so to renege on that so clearly. I have four children, I | :40:28. | :40:32. | |
worry about the thought of them going to university, should they | :40:33. | :40:35. | |
ever get there, and racking up these enormous levels of debt. What parent | :40:36. | :40:40. | |
wouldn't, and as a human being who would not be concerned about this | :40:41. | :40:46. | |
level of debt? But we had to think rationally. Some of the measures we | :40:47. | :40:50. | |
can use to ameliorate this, the chairman of the select committee | :40:51. | :40:54. | |
talked about the interest rate, of course the way student debts are | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
packaged up and bought is on a securitisation basis, so I would | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
like to understand more about how that works and the redemption | :41:03. | :41:06. | |
penalties if it is possible to change those contracts without a | :41:07. | :41:10. | |
huge cost to the taxpayer. We would all benefit from knowing more about | :41:11. | :41:15. | |
that. On the other point of the threshold. Happy to give way to my | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
honourable friend. He makes a very strong point in relation to the | :41:20. | :41:26. | |
level of interest on debt. Talking about securitisation, he will accept | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
that because of a high proportion of the debt which is written off, | :41:30. | :41:34. | |
effectively it is a grant and the interest rate will need to be hired | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
to make it attractive to people who want to take on security? I suspect | :41:39. | :41:44. | |
that is true, and it is also the case that the high interest rate | :41:45. | :41:50. | |
enables the Godsmark to revert from the threshold under Labour to | :41:51. | :41:56. | |
?21,000 under ourselves. My honourable friend the member for | :41:57. | :42:01. | |
Harlow made a point but if you are able to raise the threshold at which | :42:02. | :42:05. | |
you pay it is fairer from student insomuch as you ensure a greater | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
quality. Because they repaid when their earnings reach a point where | :42:11. | :42:13. | |
you think at that level it is fair to pay. But it is not cheap. If you | :42:14. | :42:21. | |
raise the threshold to ?25,000, for example, it costs almost ?2 billion | :42:22. | :42:25. | |
a game lost it good to the revenue, it is not a minor detail. In talking | :42:26. | :42:32. | |
about these points we have to decide as a parliament what our priority | :42:33. | :42:36. | |
is, what is the most important thing we want from higher education? Why | :42:37. | :42:43. | |
do people go to university? The most important thing in my view is to | :42:44. | :42:48. | |
have the highest quality possible education, the best quality degrees. | :42:49. | :42:51. | |
We need to think about the upside, and that is that if you go to | :42:52. | :42:56. | |
university you can possibly earn a quarter of ?1 million more in your | :42:57. | :43:00. | |
life than someone who didn't, often far more. To access those highly | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
paid professional jobs we know you need a degree. I give way to my | :43:06. | :43:13. | |
honourable friend. I am grateful. Was he as interested as I was in | :43:14. | :43:17. | |
relation to the uplift? It is a quarter of ?1 million if you are | :43:18. | :43:23. | |
female, only ?170,000 if you are male. Both significant figures, but | :43:24. | :43:27. | |
the larger figure is the uplift if you are a female who goes to | :43:28. | :43:34. | |
university. I am interested in female uplift, Mr Speaker. It is | :43:35. | :43:40. | |
striking that regardless of whether men or women, University, what is | :43:41. | :43:47. | |
the upside? It is an incredible opportunity for individuals to | :43:48. | :43:51. | |
improve their standing and circumstances, to get a career to | :43:52. | :43:56. | |
afford a home and to raise a family. To me the most important thing is | :43:57. | :43:59. | |
the quality of the degree. I worry that if we go back to a free system | :44:00. | :44:05. | |
we will not improve the quality of degrees, it will fall, partly | :44:06. | :44:09. | |
because the funding will fall. We will go back to rationing the | :44:10. | :44:14. | |
funding and the places. If we're honest, will those students take | :44:15. | :44:18. | |
their education is seriously when it is free, in inverted commas, as if | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
it were not? It is not free, this is the delusion. As the member for | :44:24. | :44:28. | |
Hollywood -- for Solihull said, it is just that somebody else pays | :44:29. | :44:31. | |
rather than the beneficiary. The whole of society pays. The has to | :44:32. | :44:41. | |
come from somewhere. The party opposite was supposedly paid to | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
raising Corporation Tax, never mind all the evidence shows that by | :44:44. | :44:46. | |
cutting Corporation Tax we raise the revenue to the Exchequer. | :44:47. | :44:52. | |
The factors, if they were to study it, they would realise, looking at | :44:53. | :45:04. | |
the OECD figures, it shows the predicted tax take from corporation | :45:05. | :45:07. | |
tax is the same percentage of GDP as it was in 2010. There is a downside | :45:08. | :45:15. | |
to going back to free education. We have to pay for it some way and the | :45:16. | :45:21. | |
upside is a competitive graduate systems all our graduates have the | :45:22. | :45:25. | |
best quality qualifications because I want to conclude with the big | :45:26. | :45:29. | |
picture, which is that if you head to university now you're heading | :45:30. | :45:33. | |
into a much more competitive labour market. A globalised, competitive | :45:34. | :45:37. | |
labour market and whatever effects of Brexit that will not change it. | :45:38. | :45:43. | |
Our children will be up against it, against graduates from India and all | :45:44. | :45:47. | |
over the world. We need to give them the best weapons and tools with | :45:48. | :45:51. | |
which to navigate their way through the challenges of life and get the | :45:52. | :45:56. | |
best possible qualifications. I encourage them to consider the | :45:57. | :46:00. | |
importance of quality here, and finally a welcome measure that has | :46:01. | :46:04. | |
been brought in, which is that as I understand it you will only be able | :46:05. | :46:08. | |
to raise fees to the maximum level if you can demonstrate that you're | :46:09. | :46:12. | |
teaching is of the highest quality, so we are moving towards a quality | :46:13. | :46:16. | |
based scheme and I very much welcome that. We should all support it. | :46:17. | :46:23. | |
Always a pleasure to follow the honourable member and I wish to | :46:24. | :46:28. | |
congratulate my honourable friend for her moving and personal and | :46:29. | :46:30. | |
powerful maiden speech and I wish her well in what I hope will be a | :46:31. | :46:36. | |
long and distinguished service to the House. Madam Deputy Speaker, the | :46:37. | :46:42. | |
late great Ron Dearing set out in his compact a route map for how | :46:43. | :46:46. | |
higher education should be funding and ultimately it would be funded by | :46:47. | :46:50. | |
the beneficiaries. Graduates should make a contribution, businesses | :46:51. | :46:56. | |
should make a contribution because they benefit from graduates, and | :46:57. | :47:01. | |
society as taxpayers should make a contribution because collectively we | :47:02. | :47:04. | |
benefit from the contribution made both through learning and teaching | :47:05. | :47:08. | |
but also the wider impact that it has thorough country. We have seen | :47:09. | :47:13. | |
under the Conservatives than government with the Liberal | :47:14. | :47:19. | |
Democrats and now with the DUP, we see under the Conservatives that the | :47:20. | :47:24. | |
dealing compact has been broken. People in this country graduate of | :47:25. | :47:28. | |
the highest levels of debt anywhere in the world and most terribly it is | :47:29. | :47:33. | |
the students from the poorest backgrounds that graduate with the | :47:34. | :47:37. | |
highest levels of debt. As someone who has followed these debates for a | :47:38. | :47:40. | |
long time dating back to my tenure as leader of the National Union of | :47:41. | :47:45. | |
Students, one of the biggest things is that every single concession that | :47:46. | :47:50. | |
was fought for and won has gradually been eroded. The maintenance grants | :47:51. | :47:56. | |
reintroduced to help people from the poorest backgrounds abolished, | :47:57. | :47:59. | |
interest rates now well above inflation, which was not as was | :48:00. | :48:03. | |
promised. Repayment threshold frozen which means it is the poorest | :48:04. | :48:10. | |
graduates that end up paying back disproportionately. The NHS bursary | :48:11. | :48:14. | |
abolished leading to a free fall in applications for nursing and | :48:15. | :48:17. | |
part-time and mature access at a rate that should make any decent | :48:18. | :48:23. | |
government blush. In relation to poorer students does he not welcome | :48:24. | :48:28. | |
the fact that more students from disadvantaged backgrounds only going | :48:29. | :48:32. | |
to university than ever before, an increase of 43% from 2009-16, an | :48:33. | :48:38. | |
increase, does he not welcome those figures? As someone who has always | :48:39. | :48:45. | |
campaigned for a greater access to higher education and who believes | :48:46. | :48:48. | |
strongly we should have more better educated people and few are better | :48:49. | :48:53. | |
educated, I welcome the fact they are more students than ever before | :48:54. | :48:56. | |
but I am glad he raises the point because it brings me to the point of | :48:57. | :49:00. | |
government complacency. It is not a surprise that there are more people | :49:01. | :49:04. | |
going than before but also more young people than ever before. We | :49:05. | :49:09. | |
have in addition to the shocking record on part-time and mature | :49:10. | :49:16. | |
access, which by the weekends to be people from nontraditional and | :49:17. | :49:18. | |
underrepresented backgrounds, there is a huge degree of complacency | :49:19. | :49:21. | |
about the extent to which working-class young people in this | :49:22. | :49:26. | |
country today are being deterred from accessing higher education | :49:27. | :49:32. | |
because of of tuition and debt. He has made an utterly specious point. | :49:33. | :49:36. | |
It is the rate at which people from disadvantaged backgrounds which is | :49:37. | :49:40. | |
43% higher, the number itself is also higher. He is right that there | :49:41. | :49:49. | |
has been progress and I don't doubt that, but once again the minister | :49:50. | :49:52. | |
underlines the point I am making about complacency, because research | :49:53. | :49:58. | |
published by University College London, a distinguished academic in | :49:59. | :50:03. | |
this area, warns that when we compare and upper class students | :50:04. | :50:07. | |
with similar GCSE results, taking into account differences in gender, | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
ethnicity and type of school attended, we found a lower | :50:13. | :50:15. | |
percentage of working-class students had applied compared with those from | :50:16. | :50:18. | |
upper-class backgrounds because of these fears, and goes on to say, our | :50:19. | :50:24. | |
study is an important reminder that academic achievement at school | :50:25. | :50:28. | |
cannot adequately explain the lower proportion of university students | :50:29. | :50:32. | |
from poorer backgrounds. High fees and the fear of debt play a role. | :50:33. | :50:38. | |
The government have been consistently complacent about this | :50:39. | :50:42. | |
since deciding to treble fees, and if they weren't complacent they | :50:43. | :50:44. | |
would never have abolished the maintenance grants which was one of | :50:45. | :50:47. | |
the most terrible policies of the last Parliament. At your mindful of | :50:48. | :50:53. | |
the time but it is not surprising that so many not just young people | :50:54. | :50:59. | |
but parents and grandparents are angry about the extent to which | :51:00. | :51:02. | |
students and graduates have been plunged into record bet and it is | :51:03. | :51:07. | |
not surprising that this is no at the top of the political agenda, and | :51:08. | :51:12. | |
it is not just ministers to blame. University vice chancellors should | :51:13. | :51:15. | |
take some responsibility because there is scant evidence that | :51:16. | :51:19. | |
trebling tuition fees has led to a better quality of student experience | :51:20. | :51:23. | |
for undergraduate students and in fact they are saying the opposite. | :51:24. | :51:27. | |
They believe they get less value for money now than they did before and | :51:28. | :51:33. | |
frankly when you look at the retention rates and graduate | :51:34. | :51:35. | |
destination data for certain courses, those vice chancellors who | :51:36. | :51:41. | |
continue to award themselves inflation busting increases ought to | :51:42. | :51:45. | |
be ashamed of themselves, because the truth is that particularly if | :51:46. | :51:49. | |
you're from a disadvantaged background and you go to university | :51:50. | :51:52. | |
and take on the debt, if you are unable to complete your course for | :51:53. | :51:56. | |
whatever reason, the cost to you as an individual is far higher than a | :51:57. | :52:00. | |
few had never been to university at all, not just in terms of the debt | :52:01. | :52:04. | |
you have to pay back but because you will be forever branded a feel | :52:05. | :52:07. | |
you're on your CV by employers, and I don't think universities, being | :52:08. | :52:15. | |
awash with cash, I don't think they have demonstrated a duty of care and | :52:16. | :52:18. | |
responsibility to students that I would expect for the level of debt | :52:19. | :52:22. | |
and the price of the fees they are now charging. We have to be a lot | :52:23. | :52:27. | |
firmer and universities than we have been. The final point I wanted to | :52:28. | :52:32. | |
make is a broader point behind tuition fees about where social | :52:33. | :52:36. | |
mobility in this country is headed and the state of political debate on | :52:37. | :52:42. | |
social mobility. I am horrified by the number of housing cases that I | :52:43. | :52:45. | |
now deal with involving children and the impact that is having on the | :52:46. | :52:51. | |
education. As I said, last week, when a school visit, at the end of | :52:52. | :52:56. | |
the queue and they with the group of students, I was pulled to one side | :52:57. | :52:59. | |
by an 11-year-old boy who told me that he, his mother rant two | :53:00. | :53:04. | |
brothers had been living in one room in a hostel for over a year in | :53:05. | :53:09. | |
temporary accommodation. I will never forget the conversation with | :53:10. | :53:15. | |
the mother what a teenage daughter, again, one room in a | :53:16. | :53:18. | |
bed-and-breakfast hostel, where her daughter has to do her homework | :53:19. | :53:22. | |
under the covers at night with a torch because she doesn't want to | :53:23. | :53:26. | |
disturb her mother's sleep because she goes at all hours to make ends | :53:27. | :53:31. | |
meet, not successfully because they are stuck in poverty. I will | :53:32. | :53:36. | |
certainly never forget the mother who came to me, a victim of domestic | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
violence, living with three children, two of primary age, one of | :53:42. | :53:45. | |
teenage age, whose daughter had admitted that she had considered | :53:46. | :53:51. | |
taking her life because the circumstances so appalling. The | :53:52. | :53:57. | |
family were moved to West London and then Wolverhampton. What upsets me | :53:58. | :54:01. | |
about this is somebody who grew up on a council estate, and didn't | :54:02. | :54:05. | |
enjoy the experience, is however bad I thought my childhood was, growing | :54:06. | :54:09. | |
up in poverty and relying on the benefits system and living in a | :54:10. | :54:16. | |
council flat, not the sort of environment you want to welcome your | :54:17. | :54:19. | |
friends in truth, I realise how lucky I had it now, because the fact | :54:20. | :54:24. | |
the policies of successive governments under the Conservatives | :54:25. | :54:28. | |
have led to such a state where we are disrupting children's education | :54:29. | :54:33. | |
by moving them from pillar to post in temporary accommodation with huge | :54:34. | :54:35. | |
consequences for their education today and life chances tomorrow, and | :54:36. | :54:39. | |
if the government were serious about social mobility it would be an | :54:40. | :54:43. | |
overriding priority through every single department, and when you look | :54:44. | :54:48. | |
at the policies of this government and | :54:49. | :54:59. | |
their pet so far removed from the reality of the majority of people in | :55:00. | :55:03. | |
this country, and policies that would genuinely make a | :55:04. | :55:04. | |
transformational difference, that they ought to be ashamed. Though | :55:05. | :55:07. | |
they are the largest party, have at the detachment from the problems of | :55:08. | :55:14. | |
everyday lives across this country. I don't concur with all his points | :55:15. | :55:19. | |
but I will address one of two in my remarks. I wish to add my | :55:20. | :55:23. | |
congratulations to the honourable lady for the very touching and well | :55:24. | :55:26. | |
delivered speech and it is wonderful to hear of her work on the | :55:27. | :55:33. | |
Samaritans. I am sure she is a true public servant. I do believe despite | :55:34. | :55:37. | |
what the public and media may see that the vast majority of people who | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
decide to enter the world of parliamentary politics do so because | :55:45. | :55:46. | |
they wish to make the world a better place and that is quite clear that | :55:47. | :55:49. | |
is the reason she sat on those benches today. We'll have someone we | :55:50. | :56:01. | |
would describe as a favourite teacher, and mine was a gentleman | :56:02. | :56:06. | |
called Ken Hudson, my physics teacher, and Ken was a pipe-smoking, | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
bespectacled teacher with a haircut like Ray Reardon, and he was a | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
physics teacher. He was definitely my inspiration although I didn't do | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
tremendously well at physics through my A-levels and at college. I | :56:21. | :56:27. | |
remember one day we did our mock all levels and none of the cluster | :56:28. | :56:33. | |
particularly well in physics, and he walked into her classroom and simply | :56:34. | :56:38. | |
stood by the blackboard and white the blackboard down and just looked | :56:39. | :56:43. | |
at as until we all went very quiet and then he wrote across the | :56:44. | :56:47. | |
blackboard in Choc, the world does not owe you a living. That has | :56:48. | :56:54. | |
clearly stuck with me years later, and as does something that has stuck | :56:55. | :56:58. | |
with my children as well because it is something I tell them an awful | :56:59. | :57:02. | |
lot, the principle that the world does not owe you a living. I also | :57:03. | :57:05. | |
tell them that parents do not call them a living as well, and it is my | :57:06. | :57:13. | |
son who just passed through his sixth form, had to make the decision | :57:14. | :57:18. | |
whether he was going to go to university whether he was going to | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
go into the world of work. That Timmy is the principal at that point | :57:24. | :57:28. | |
in time, he had to make that choice. Was he going to invest in is | :57:29. | :57:31. | |
education, was he going go to university and at that point, if you | :57:32. | :57:37. | |
can provide for yourself, the world does not all you. It is your | :57:38. | :57:44. | |
decision, whether to invest in those tuition fees, that time in student | :57:45. | :57:49. | |
accommodation, that time away from home, all that will add to his bit | :57:50. | :57:52. | |
for the future. Does he want to spend up to 30, ?40,000 on his | :57:53. | :57:59. | |
education that may be back in the future, and as we have heard can pay | :58:00. | :58:03. | |
back up to a quarter of ?1 million in his lifetime. That might have | :58:04. | :58:06. | |
been a sensible choice for him to make. He actually decided not to | :58:07. | :58:10. | |
take that decision and move on to the world of work. Having made that | :58:11. | :58:15. | |
decision. Do I think it is right that he then should find other | :58:16. | :58:18. | |
people who choose to go down a different route and go on to the | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
world of higher education and to university? I don't think it is | :58:24. | :58:26. | |
right that he should have to pay that burden. Surely the burden | :58:27. | :58:29. | |
should be carried by the people who benefit most from that education. | :58:30. | :58:35. | |
Of course, other people benefit from the fact that society is better | :58:36. | :58:41. | |
educated, of course that is the case. But here we see a clear | :58:42. | :58:45. | |
correlation between your education, your investment in your education | :58:46. | :58:49. | |
and the long-term return you will see. It is trying to strike a | :58:50. | :58:54. | |
balance. Somebody has to pay. We do not have a bottomless pit. Who will | :58:55. | :58:59. | |
pay is the key. I would ask the honourable gentleman as I tried to | :59:00. | :59:07. | |
intervene on him from Ilford North, does he honestly feel... He has a | :59:08. | :59:11. | |
very sensible economic perspective, at a time when we are spending ?60 | :59:12. | :59:15. | |
billion for every gear than be collecting taxes, does he honestly | :59:16. | :59:21. | |
feel that ?11.2 billion a year in the Labour manifesto is the best way | :59:22. | :59:26. | |
to spend that public money? With all the other demands on health care, | :59:27. | :59:33. | |
pre-18 education, does he honestly feel that is the best use of our | :59:34. | :59:38. | |
public money? I do not feel. We had to make ends meet in this country, | :59:39. | :59:43. | |
it is where we choose to allocate resources most effectively. The | :59:44. | :59:50. | |
point being, of course, from a sedentary position... And I am happy | :59:51. | :59:55. | |
to take an intimate -- and intervention, but the point in the | :59:56. | :00:00. | |
Labour manifesto, there is ?250 billion of extra spending, that is | :00:01. | :00:06. | |
quite clear, those ?25 billion a year in infrastructure spending, | :00:07. | :00:10. | |
plus nationalising the water companies, nationalising the | :00:11. | :00:13. | |
railways, ?500 billion of extra debt. And in the same manifesto it | :00:14. | :00:20. | |
says that over the course of the next parliament, if you had been in | :00:21. | :00:24. | |
Government, you would have reduced the national debt. How does any of | :00:25. | :00:29. | |
this stack up? It is uncosted spending after a cost of spending. | :00:30. | :00:38. | |
In terms... The point was not in the manifesto about past student debt, | :00:39. | :00:43. | |
it was quite clear what the Leader of the Opposition said. Biden pick | :00:44. | :00:48. | |
every commitment needs to be in your manifesto for people to have a | :00:49. | :00:53. | |
reasonable degree of expectation it would be delivered upon, the Leader | :00:54. | :01:00. | |
of the Opposition said I will deal with the already burdened to... | :01:01. | :01:04. | |
Those already burdened with student debt. It is quite clear that that | :01:05. | :01:12. | |
was a commitment. So there is another ?111 billion. It is uncosted | :01:13. | :01:18. | |
debt after uncosted debts. We cannot carry on like that, we cannot go | :01:19. | :01:23. | |
back to the 1970s when I grew up in my household when we had uncollected | :01:24. | :01:28. | |
rubbish, the television went off at 10pm. That is what we would return | :01:29. | :01:33. | |
to if we do not maintain a sensible economic policy. Of course, if you | :01:34. | :01:40. | |
think people on this side of the house are not worried about student | :01:41. | :01:44. | |
debt you are wrong, of course I would be worried, both in terms of | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
the many students across the country who have this debt, and my potential | :01:49. | :01:53. | |
children, I have three more children, some of which might make | :01:54. | :01:59. | |
the choice of going to university. We might be able to allow students | :02:00. | :02:04. | |
to go to university and benefit from much higher education without | :02:05. | :02:10. | |
incurring so much debt. One way, for example, a shorter course. The | :02:11. | :02:15. | |
course my daughter is looking at is a psychology course. I am happy to | :02:16. | :02:22. | |
take intervention. I am pleased to note that the higher education and | :02:23. | :02:27. | |
research act makes it possible for universities to offer shorter | :02:28. | :02:31. | |
courses in the form of two year degrees, for example. That is | :02:32. | :02:36. | |
tremendous news and I should have followed that more closely. A couple | :02:37. | :02:46. | |
of quick points if I may, looking at the US system in terms of the | :02:47. | :02:54. | |
modular course, and students can live closer to home and not incur | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
the living costs if they move away from home. There are ways to reduce | :02:59. | :03:04. | |
the impact on students, but I will close, if I may, it is about choice | :03:05. | :03:11. | |
and who pays for those choices. For me, the burden of the cost should be | :03:12. | :03:17. | |
allocated to those benefiting from the education. Thank you very much. | :03:18. | :03:23. | |
To make his maiden speech, James Frome. | :03:24. | :03:27. | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is an absolute pleasure to be here | :03:28. | :03:33. | |
making my maiden speech during this debate on tuition fees, and to be | :03:34. | :03:37. | |
standing here in the first place I give thanks to the people of Bari, | :03:38. | :03:42. | |
Toddington and Ramsbottom. The amazing place of Bury North, a place | :03:43. | :03:48. | |
I have 100 years of history with from a late great-grandfather, a | :03:49. | :03:56. | |
vicar in Bury to me, his great grandson, the new MP. For me, my | :03:57. | :04:02. | |
wife, our three children and a fourth on the way, it is our | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
family's hometown. Growing up, public service was a staple of my | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
whole life, Madam Deputy Speaker. My mum was a care worker and magistrate | :04:13. | :04:17. | |
with a passion for music, whilst dad was a Church of England minister | :04:18. | :04:23. | |
with a love of cricket and politics. And so it goes my passions are | :04:24. | :04:27. | |
politics and music. These were supercharged within me when 20 years | :04:28. | :04:35. | |
ago witnessing Rumania and South Africa in their newly emerging | :04:36. | :04:39. | |
political states recovering from a ruthless dictator and the abhorrence | :04:40. | :04:46. | |
of apartheid respectively. I then moved to the music capital of the | :04:47. | :04:53. | |
world, Manchester. To study. Here I formed an indie rock and roll band, | :04:54. | :05:00. | |
as the singer. For 12 years! I joined the Labour Party, I married a | :05:01. | :05:06. | |
Bury woman adds, Madam Deputy Speaker, the rest is history. I | :05:07. | :05:11. | |
never got that elusive record deal, although very few need to no real | :05:12. | :05:18. | |
before learning that I did in fact play Glastonbury Festival, long | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
before it became the thing to do! I would have killed for his crowds, | :05:25. | :05:31. | |
though. During the election, or competition, as mice and Henry | :05:32. | :05:35. | |
called it, my eldest daughter Jemima asked me what is an MP, daddy? So I | :05:36. | :05:42. | |
tried to explain. Well, if someone wants help, might be in trouble, | :05:43. | :05:47. | |
want something changing, needs to talk to you, or maybe you've just | :05:48. | :05:51. | |
got a really good idea, you might go and see your MP. My daughter Jemima | :05:52. | :05:57. | |
looked at me and said well, daddy, you're my MP already. It is | :05:58. | :06:05. | |
customary to pay tribute to one's predecessor. David Nutt always | :06:06. | :06:08. | |
graceful in his victory last time, as he was in his defeat this time. | :06:09. | :06:15. | |
For all our considerable critical differences I always found him to be | :06:16. | :06:18. | |
an affable man and I wish him and his wife the very best for the | :06:19. | :06:25. | |
future. Bury North is a fantastic place to live. Uganda by two | :06:26. | :06:31. | |
traditional market towns, the world-famous Bury market, home to a | :06:32. | :06:37. | |
no superfood, Bury black pudding. -- book ended by two traditional market | :06:38. | :06:42. | |
towns. And the magnificent marketing Ramsbottom from where one winter | :06:43. | :06:45. | |
morning my wife started her business. From the foothills of the | :06:46. | :06:50. | |
Lancashire Pennines overlooked by Peel tower, to Gigg Lane in the | :06:51. | :06:57. | |
South, home of the mighty Shakers, Bury FC. Proudly we are home to the | :06:58. | :07:01. | |
Lancashire Fusiliers and veterans, and their legends of six Victoria | :07:02. | :07:07. | |
crosses before breakfast at the Battle of Gallipoli in 1915. A | :07:08. | :07:13. | |
battle in which one Clement Attlee also fought. Local charities are an | :07:14. | :07:23. | |
inspiration. And whether a community event, relaxing round the boundary | :07:24. | :07:27. | |
at Greenmount Cricket club, enjoying our countryside or a curry at Jewel | :07:28. | :07:33. | |
In The Crowd or taking the East Lancs Railway to Ramsbottom, all | :07:34. | :07:38. | |
human life and experiences here. Local employers set high standards, | :07:39. | :07:43. | |
drawing on the strengths of our town and its heritage. Like the | :07:44. | :07:50. | |
award-winning Eagle And Child pub and Pen And Communications. Stories | :07:51. | :07:58. | |
of this fine plays are expertly brittle by the local paper the Bury | :07:59. | :08:02. | |
times. My new constituency office will be hosted in the same building | :08:03. | :08:06. | |
as the Freedom Church, who welcome everyone to their door with, it's | :08:07. | :08:12. | |
great to see you. A simple message that sums Bury up. Madam Deputy | :08:13. | :08:19. | |
Speaker, we have had seven years of bad luck for Bury. 120 million cut | :08:20. | :08:29. | |
from services, local government and our economy. Our walk-in centre is | :08:30. | :08:34. | |
used by thousands of patients a month, relying on it not as Labour | :08:35. | :08:40. | |
or Conservative supporters but as patients. So why is it threatened | :08:41. | :08:45. | |
with closure? The reality of austerity is being lived through in | :08:46. | :08:51. | |
hospital wards or by carers and the underpaid and overworked parents | :08:52. | :08:54. | |
that no differently. Mental health services are disappearing. We have | :08:55. | :09:01. | |
not enough nurses because the Government target is 20,000 short. | :09:02. | :09:06. | |
Children with special educational needs are no longer supported. | :09:07. | :09:13. | |
Social care reduced two minutes per day, 6000 food parcels last year | :09:14. | :09:21. | |
handed out in Bury alone. A veteran and Bury had his benefit sanctioned | :09:22. | :09:26. | |
for selling poppies. No access to finance for many of our growing | :09:27. | :09:30. | |
businesses without risking the family home. At best in this once | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
weather vane cedes many feel we have stood still as a country. Many more | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
fields stood on. You see, Mr Speaker, from this house, as my | :09:42. | :09:48. | |
daughter might ask, so we say, what are we for? What do we do? Well, Mr | :09:49. | :09:53. | |
Speaker, for Bury North Ireland here to help determine what comes next. | :09:54. | :10:01. | |
That is the point in being here, the power to intervene, to disrupt, to | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
change, the authority to speak out, to help manage. That is the point. | :10:08. | :10:14. | |
Not to manage decline or sponsor disadvantage but, Mr Speaker, | :10:15. | :10:18. | |
austerity continues apace. Austerity is not living within our means. | :10:19. | :10:24. | |
Austerity is lifeless economic. We must be as much about humanity as we | :10:25. | :10:30. | |
are about eventually balancing the books. You grow by investing, you | :10:31. | :10:36. | |
nurture talent, you empower people. A business will not seek to grow by | :10:37. | :10:41. | |
taking its people off the road, nor should a country. I believe politics | :10:42. | :10:49. | |
is a place and a force for good, for hope, not an excuse for despair. It | :10:50. | :10:56. | |
is this belief in Labour value is why I believe we need a fairer and | :10:57. | :11:01. | |
more diverse economy. More innovative. Entrepreneur all. What | :11:02. | :11:07. | |
that takes risk and reward, with worklife balance, one that affirms | :11:08. | :11:12. | |
the fact that both public and private sectors combine to wealth | :11:13. | :11:21. | |
creation. From nursery to university, these ambitions should | :11:22. | :11:26. | |
feature, too. Proper investment, paid for by a broader economy. | :11:27. | :11:32. | |
Empowered by a curriculum map prepares our young people for | :11:33. | :11:38. | |
successful, modern working life. Whether via an apprenticeship, | :11:39. | :11:42. | |
degree or started up for themselves. Not the ever narrowing curriculum | :11:43. | :11:47. | |
that has become. Too often it is our young people who have been first to | :11:48. | :11:53. | |
face the political calculation of this place. With tuition fees as | :11:54. | :11:58. | |
they are, they face a future saddled with debt and rising interest rates. | :11:59. | :12:02. | |
We must move to a higher skilled economic grounds, harness our assets | :12:03. | :12:11. | |
of creativity, intuition, emotion, empathy and intelligence. And in | :12:12. | :12:16. | |
doing so outbid the threat to jobs and livelihoods that automation | :12:17. | :12:21. | |
poses for so many. A collaboration at all levels of education, | :12:22. | :12:28. | |
research, development, trade unions, business. New national industry. | :12:29. | :12:34. | |
Pulled together by Government jump-starting the plan. Lastly, Mr | :12:35. | :12:39. | |
Speaker, in closing, Madam Deputy Speaker... | :12:40. | :12:43. | |
LAUGHTER Marc Tierney out already. On Brexit, | :12:44. | :12:51. | |
please a less bombastic approach. More grace. A Brexit that works for | :12:52. | :12:59. | |
Bury is what I have said. -- I have modelled myself out already. Away | :13:00. | :13:04. | |
from this bubble, Brexit for many was a chance to stop the show, to | :13:05. | :13:10. | |
smash the grass and pull the Leave chord. And it struck a chord. For | :13:11. | :13:16. | |
the first time, many who have not been listened to have now been | :13:17. | :13:21. | |
heard. But they did not votes to be worse off or poorer. I am proud that | :13:22. | :13:28. | |
Bury North they voted to trust Labour with public services, just | :13:29. | :13:32. | |
Labour to ensure industries are made in new and workers are protected. My | :13:33. | :13:38. | |
mission is to improve the lives and living of everyone I represent in | :13:39. | :13:42. | |
Bury North, whether they voted for me or not. I am not here to trade | :13:43. | :13:51. | |
insults, but advance our argument. Politics, the great intervener, the | :13:52. | :13:58. | |
enabler, the change we want to see, the kicking out and putting in. Too | :13:59. | :14:02. | |
often a wasted force, but a force for good. | :14:03. | :14:09. | |
So after a historic result in Bury North, I am working with my friends | :14:10. | :14:22. | |
and colleagues to advance our agreement and winning with | :14:23. | :14:25. | |
inspiration, assurance and aversion. Desmond Tutu once said, never | :14:26. | :14:32. | |
underestimate man's capacity to do wrong, but never underestimate man's | :14:33. | :14:39. | |
capacity for good also. Madam Deputy Speaker, the same is true for our | :14:40. | :14:45. | |
estimation of politics, and the responsibility on us to ensure our | :14:46. | :14:49. | |
politics capacity for good begins in this place. Restoring faith in | :14:50. | :14:56. | |
politics and professing this to a new generation of its power as the | :14:57. | :15:00. | |
best force for good, for change, that we have got, for the many, not | :15:01. | :15:11. | |
the few. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is a real pleasure | :15:12. | :15:15. | |
to follow the honourable gentleman the member for Bury North. I thought | :15:16. | :15:20. | |
he paid a fitting and generous tribute to his predecessor and my | :15:21. | :15:23. | |
friend David Nuttall. I thought he spoke with eloquence and confidence | :15:24. | :15:28. | |
and he said that his passions are politics and music, I would stick to | :15:29. | :15:34. | |
politics and cricket, but he said we shouldn't be trading insults but I | :15:35. | :15:37. | |
look forward to disagree in well with them in the future. I am sure | :15:38. | :15:42. | |
there are lots we will disagree about but I look forward to his | :15:43. | :15:48. | |
future contributions. In a very short intervention, speech, I want | :15:49. | :15:52. | |
to make a few points, but it's already been mentioned the history | :15:53. | :15:57. | |
of tuition fees. It's been a helpful reminder, introduced by the Labour | :15:58. | :16:02. | |
Party in 1998 and in 2001 the Labour Party manifesto pledge that we will | :16:03. | :16:06. | |
not introduce top-up fees and then proceeded to do that in 2004. The | :16:07. | :16:12. | |
final piece of the jigsaw not mentioned is the Liberal Democrat | :16:13. | :16:16. | |
pledge in 2010 that they would scrap university tuition fees and of | :16:17. | :16:20. | |
course in coalition they voted to put those fees up. This debate is a | :16:21. | :16:26. | |
timely reminder of those facts but also an opportunity for us to | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
consider the issue of social justice and that is the theme that my | :16:31. | :16:33. | |
honourable friend the new member of the select committee picked up, and | :16:34. | :16:38. | |
I love his vision and his picture of the ladder, because when we look at | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
the facts and what we mean by social justice, it should be opportunities | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
for the next generation and in particular opportunities for those | :16:48. | :16:51. | |
who are less advantaged. Others can meet the economic argument and I | :16:52. | :16:59. | |
fear of the opposition has built himself a better the hall from what | :17:00. | :17:03. | |
he said in the run-up to the election campaign, the promise he | :17:04. | :17:06. | |
made on the stump to those students and what was said in this dispatch | :17:07. | :17:13. | |
box. On social justice, very briefly, it is counterintuitive but | :17:14. | :17:18. | |
no more people than ever before are going to university from | :17:19. | :17:20. | |
disadvantaged backgrounds, not just more people, a higher proportion of | :17:21. | :17:28. | |
people. These are the figures, 43%. It has gone up from 13.5% in 2009-10 | :17:29. | :17:38. | |
to 19.5% in 2016, and in fact the proportion has gone up 73% since | :17:39. | :17:46. | |
2006. This is not an accident. It is as a result of this government's | :17:47. | :17:51. | |
policy, because the quid pro quo, the deal, we give universities more | :17:52. | :17:56. | |
money but part of that is you ensure there is social justice and that | :17:57. | :18:00. | |
more people from less well-off backgrounds get university. We heard | :18:01. | :18:05. | |
some of that from the Minister this afternoon and I look forward to | :18:06. | :18:07. | |
hearing more in the future. The honourable gentleman said we should | :18:08. | :18:10. | |
not be complacent and he is right, we shouldn't be. This menace and | :18:11. | :18:16. | |
this government should make sure the statistics continue and we continue | :18:17. | :18:20. | |
to see more people from poorer backgrounds going to university and | :18:21. | :18:23. | |
improving life chances and it is happening now under a Conservative | :18:24. | :18:27. | |
government. But Labour policy, if Labour got into power, we would see | :18:28. | :18:33. | |
a reduction in funding and reduced access, we would see crumbling | :18:34. | :18:37. | |
institutions and fewer students this and importantly we would see fewer | :18:38. | :18:42. | |
students from disadvantaged backgrounds going to university. How | :18:43. | :18:45. | |
do we know that is through? We look at Scotland. We look at what has | :18:46. | :18:55. | |
happened where they have taken away tuition fees. Not my words but the | :18:56. | :19:01. | |
words of the Sutton trust. They tried it in Scotland and this is | :19:02. | :19:06. | |
what happened. There was a particularly negative consequence | :19:07. | :19:11. | |
for less advantaged students. If you are concerned about social justice | :19:12. | :19:16. | |
and about the ladder then you should follow this side, this government's | :19:17. | :19:21. | |
policy, about tuition fees. To make his maiden speech. Thank you Madam | :19:22. | :19:32. | |
Deputy Speaker. The opportunity to give my maiden speech in this | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
important debate on education fees. The are many young people who are | :19:36. | :19:43. | |
increasingly facing this burden. It is with great pride that I advise to | :19:44. | :19:47. | |
speak representing a constituency in my home city of Manchester. In May, | :19:48. | :19:55. | |
the city I love was the victim of a terrible attack, 22 adults and | :19:56. | :19:58. | |
children were killed and over 100 injured attending a concert at | :19:59. | :20:04. | |
Manchester Arena. It was an act of pure evil. Faced with this tragedy | :20:05. | :20:11. | |
the people of Manchester responded in the only way they know how, what | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
solidarity and compassion and with the determination that those who | :20:16. | :20:21. | |
seek to endanger the way of life will not succeed. When events like | :20:22. | :20:26. | |
these happen, there is always a danger that some people try to use | :20:27. | :20:33. | |
them to divide us. Unfortunately, we witnessed an increase in hate crimes | :20:34. | :20:38. | |
in the wake of this attack. Yet just a few weeks later, the people of | :20:39. | :20:44. | |
Manchester elected me, a Muslim, as the city's first ever be M E M P. -- | :20:45. | :20:57. | |
BME MP. I cannot think of any more powerful message to the terrorists | :20:58. | :21:01. | |
that their attempts to divide us will not succeed. I am humbled to | :21:02. | :21:07. | |
follow the steps of my the late Gerald Kaufman, he was a legend in | :21:08. | :21:11. | |
this place and will be missed by members on all sides. He brought | :21:12. | :21:16. | |
colour to the proceedings here, sometimes literally with his keen | :21:17. | :21:21. | |
sense of style, and that other times with his sharp wit. For almost 47 | :21:22. | :21:26. | |
years he has served in this house until he passed away earlier this | :21:27. | :21:32. | |
year. He served in many roles, as the senior shadow can minister, | :21:33. | :21:38. | |
chair of culture and media select committee and later father of the | :21:39. | :21:45. | |
House. But above all, Sir Gerald was a tireless champion for his | :21:46. | :21:48. | |
constituents and in return he was loved by them. I myself worked with | :21:49. | :21:55. | |
them for 20 years on issues like peace in South Asia and the Middle | :21:56. | :22:00. | |
East and standing up for oppressed people in general. Work that I will | :22:01. | :22:07. | |
try to continue in this house. I was also grateful for his advice, | :22:08. | :22:12. | |
support and above all friendship. I know he will be a hard act to follow | :22:13. | :22:17. | |
and although I cannot match his dress sense, I will try my best to | :22:18. | :22:23. | |
at least fill his shoes. Most of all I will never forget the people of | :22:24. | :22:28. | |
Manchester Gorton who have given me the privilege of representing them | :22:29. | :22:32. | |
here. The constituency is a wonderfully diverse and vibrant | :22:33. | :22:39. | |
place, taking in Fallowfield, Long said, and it has a thriving | :22:40. | :22:47. | |
businesses, such as the speedway and dog track, wonderful green spaces | :22:48. | :22:55. | |
like Alexandra and Crowe Croft parks, and of course the famous | :22:56. | :23:04. | |
curry mile. It is also a spiritual place onto a large number of of | :23:05. | :23:11. | |
worship and the first mosque in Manchester. But it is not without | :23:12. | :23:17. | |
its challenges. Seven years of austerity have hit my constituents | :23:18. | :23:24. | |
hard. Over one and three children live in poverty. The average wage is | :23:25. | :23:33. | |
?100 less than the national average. ?300 million have been cut from | :23:34. | :23:36. | |
Manchester council's budget, to those less police are on our | :23:37. | :23:40. | |
streets, during my election I promise that I would always put | :23:41. | :23:44. | |
Manchester Gorton first and that is exactly what I intend to do during | :23:45. | :23:50. | |
my time here. Manchester is a thriving world-class city and a | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
great place to live. The people in my constituency are decent and | :23:56. | :23:58. | |
hard-working. They play by the rules and do the right thing, but they | :23:59. | :24:03. | |
feel they haven't always felt the benefits of our city's success, and | :24:04. | :24:09. | |
they haven't had a fair deal from this government, so I will stand | :24:10. | :24:13. | |
against these cuts and further austerity and fight threat that | :24:14. | :24:17. | |
investment, in housing, in schools and NHS and in to local businesses, | :24:18. | :24:22. | |
that Manchester Gorton needs and deserves. My own journey to this | :24:23. | :24:31. | |
place was not a typical one. I was born in Pakistan and came to the UK | :24:32. | :24:35. | |
one I was adopted out of poverty as a child. Since then, Manchester has | :24:36. | :24:41. | |
been my home for nearly 40 years. I often tell people that while I was | :24:42. | :24:46. | |
born in Pakistan, I was made in Manchester. I left school with no | :24:47. | :24:53. | |
qualifications and that 16 went straight to work as a labourer in a | :24:54. | :24:58. | |
cotton mill. Later I became a bus driver and then a police officer, | :24:59. | :25:07. | |
one of Manchester's very few BME officers in the 1980s. This caught | :25:08. | :25:10. | |
up with me during my election campaign. A vote approached me to | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
say that they were sorry that they couldn't vote for me. Like all | :25:16. | :25:20. | |
candidates I was a little hurt and wanted to know why. He said, 20 | :25:21. | :25:33. | |
years ago, you arrested me. Even after a brief chat, I don't think I | :25:34. | :25:40. | |
was able to change his mind. I always felt I had missed out on in | :25:41. | :25:45. | |
education so while supporting my wife and young children I went to | :25:46. | :25:50. | |
night school, got my all levels and A-levels and eventually a law | :25:51. | :25:54. | |
degree. I became a solicitor because I wanted to defend those most in | :25:55. | :25:59. | |
need, and I worked my way up to become a partner at my own law firm. | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
Over the last 17 years I have been Manchester's tensor, Lord May and | :26:06. | :26:11. | |
latterly an MEP. I entered politics because I believe in the power of | :26:12. | :26:17. | |
social justice to transform lives, to bring hope, and to deliver | :26:18. | :26:22. | |
opportunity. I believe in a world where someone's's future prospects | :26:23. | :26:28. | |
would be determined by the contact of their character and not by their | :26:29. | :26:31. | |
circumstances that burst or the colour of their skin. And although | :26:32. | :26:36. | |
progress has been made, it is clear that from recent increase in | :26:37. | :26:43. | |
inequality that that is still more to be done. As a father, I see | :26:44. | :26:48. | |
society's unfairness so clearly when I look at my children. I have three, | :26:49. | :26:55. | |
two daughters and a son. I see them equally but society does not. It is | :26:56. | :27:01. | |
45 years since the equal pay act but women still earn less than men. I | :27:02. | :27:06. | |
don't want to have to wait for another four to five years for my | :27:07. | :27:10. | |
great great granddaughter to be treated equally. So unless house, I | :27:11. | :27:18. | |
will always be a champion for equality and stand up against | :27:19. | :27:23. | |
anti-Semitism, Islamophobia and all other forms of discrimination. I | :27:24. | :27:28. | |
look forward to the upcoming release of the race audit so that we can | :27:29. | :27:32. | |
better ensure public services don't feel the most vulnerable in our | :27:33. | :27:37. | |
society. I will no doubt touch mode on these issues and future of the | :27:38. | :27:43. | |
date, and also I hope to use my experience from my time in the | :27:44. | :27:47. | |
European Parliament to bear on the discussions to come on Brexit, but | :27:48. | :27:51. | |
for now I want to thank the House for indulging me while I make my | :27:52. | :27:54. | |
maiden speech and I look forward to making Manchester Gorton's voice | :27:55. | :28:00. | |
heard loud and clear during my time in this house. Thank you. | :28:01. | :28:08. | |
And to make his maiden speech, Mike Hill. | :28:09. | :28:16. | |
Thank you, Madam Speaker, for giving me the opportunity to make my maiden | :28:17. | :28:21. | |
speech today. As the first person in my family to attend university on a | :28:22. | :28:26. | |
grand and a wing and a prior, I know how difficult it is to survive | :28:27. | :28:30. | |
university, let alone be saddled with debt as a result of tuition | :28:31. | :28:36. | |
fees. Madam Deputy Speaker, may I begin by paying tribute to the | :28:37. | :28:41. | |
people who elected me, the most wonderful, friendly, warm hearted | :28:42. | :28:46. | |
and welcoming of people. It is an honour and privilege to represent | :28:47. | :28:50. | |
the people of Hartlepool in this House. I should like to pay tribute | :28:51. | :28:56. | |
to the town plus my previous MPs, Ian Wright, Peter Mandelson and Ted | :28:57. | :29:01. | |
Leadbetter. Sadly I did not know Ted, but I know he was a true and a | :29:02. | :29:07. | |
much respected constituency MP. That is something I aspire to emulate. I | :29:08. | :29:12. | |
would like to thank Peter Mandelson for his energy and effort in helping | :29:13. | :29:17. | |
to regenerate the town and throwing his weight behind some wonderful | :29:18. | :29:21. | |
projects like most beautiful and world-class marina. And for flying | :29:22. | :29:29. | |
the flag for that little-known northern delicacy guacamole! | :29:30. | :29:38. | |
LAUGHTER Is for my immediate predecessor Ian | :29:39. | :29:44. | |
Wright, who could ever forget his true tenacity and ruthlessness as he | :29:45. | :29:51. | |
exposed the disgraceful and completely unacceptable exploitation | :29:52. | :29:56. | |
of workers at Sports Direct, together with his dogged | :29:57. | :29:59. | |
determination to stand up for British home stores workers who lost | :30:00. | :30:03. | |
their jobs in the blink of an eye with the subsequent pension scandal | :30:04. | :30:07. | |
but followed. Yes, we lost BHS and Hartlepool, | :30:08. | :30:13. | |
too, and yes, Philip Green deserved to lose his knighthood over it. At | :30:14. | :30:19. | |
the turn of this century I had the good fortune of landing a new job | :30:20. | :30:25. | |
with the trade union Unison. Of all the places I could have lived in the | :30:26. | :30:29. | |
wonderful region that is the Northeast, I chose to live in | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
Hartlepool. As I said earlier, the people are warm and welcoming, | :30:35. | :30:39. | |
straight talking and honest. They were not the only attraction. | :30:40. | :30:44. | |
Hartlepool is a real hidden gem, a beautiful coastal town steeped in | :30:45. | :30:51. | |
history. From the prehistoric petrified forest scene at low tide | :30:52. | :30:56. | |
at Seaton Carew to the medieval church on the headland, there is | :30:57. | :31:00. | |
history everywhere. Robert the Bruce is famously connected with the town, | :31:01. | :31:06. | |
it is sitting in a dry dock in at centre one of Nelson's original | :31:07. | :31:12. | |
flagships. We have welcome to the town the new Royal Navy Museum of | :31:13. | :31:17. | |
the North. And the battery on the headland, a survivor of the first | :31:18. | :31:23. | |
bombardment of British soil in World War II, it is a hidden treasure. It | :31:24. | :31:28. | |
has a wonderful tourist offer and I am proud to be here to promote it. | :31:29. | :31:32. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, my constituents are no fools. They know | :31:33. | :31:39. | |
their minds and speak plainly. They voted massively the Brexit, 69.5%, | :31:40. | :31:44. | |
the highest votes in the north-east. But did not mean they were converts | :31:45. | :31:49. | |
to Ukip for the Tories, as you could find out when they lost their | :31:50. | :31:53. | |
deposit in the general election and as the Tories found out when we | :31:54. | :31:57. | |
increased our majority, so I thank the Prime Minister is going to the | :31:58. | :32:04. | |
polls early. The fact they voted in the local football mascots H'Angus | :32:05. | :32:18. | |
the monkey is the first mayor, it shows a sense of humour. Unlike the | :32:19. | :32:22. | |
monkey mayor I did not get elected by promoting free bananas every | :32:23. | :32:26. | |
primary school pupil but I promised I would fight for those kids, the | :32:27. | :32:33. | |
NHS, our hospital and against a Government hell-bent on breaking | :32:34. | :32:37. | |
them. I would like to pay tribute to all those who supported me in | :32:38. | :32:41. | |
getting elected to the strange place. Particularly my family, with | :32:42. | :32:46. | |
as in the gallery. To my mother and father who passed away in February | :32:47. | :32:51. | |
this year. My dad, Mr Robert Hill from the other monkey town, oh, yes, | :32:52. | :32:59. | |
Hayward in Lancashire. He was a true inspiration and would be proud of me | :33:00. | :33:03. | |
today. It is true, I moved from one monkey town to another and became | :33:04. | :33:09. | |
its MP. You simply could not make that one up. Mr Speaker, Madam | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
Deputy Speaker, my experience here so far has inspired me all the more | :33:15. | :33:19. | |
to do what I promised to set out to do. Hartlepool is a wonderful place | :33:20. | :33:24. | |
yet it has some of the most deprived wards in the country. Life | :33:25. | :33:28. | |
expectancy for women is the second lowest in the country and | :33:29. | :33:30. | |
unemployment significantly higher than any other | :33:31. | :33:44. | |
town in the north-east. It is my job and my determination to fight tooth | :33:45. | :33:46. | |
and nail against the constant attacks on our people and our | :33:47. | :33:49. | |
communities by the failed austerity agenda given by a Government which | :33:50. | :33:51. | |
is disconnected and uncaring of our people and communities. I want to | :33:52. | :33:53. | |
fight for mental health services, is that is a growing issue emerging | :33:54. | :33:57. | |
from austerity. As a former union official for health workers who | :33:58. | :34:02. | |
themselves fall ill and often receive a second service when it | :34:03. | :34:06. | |
comes to their treatment. I want to champion and fight for the trade | :34:07. | :34:10. | |
union and co-operative movements. I am proud of my co-operative and | :34:11. | :34:15. | |
union routes and pay tribute to my work colleagues and friends in | :34:16. | :34:20. | |
unison, particularly my secretary Angela and everyone at the | :34:21. | :34:23. | |
Middlesbrough office who are nothing short of family to me. | :34:24. | :34:26. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I would like to pay tribute to chew inspiration | :34:27. | :34:33. | |
and giant of the trade union movement, Mr Rodney Bickerstaffe, my | :34:34. | :34:38. | |
friend and former Unison general secretary, my friend and a | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
working-class hero who is suffering from a terrible illness and having | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
an operation today. I wish him. I am unashamedly a trade unionist and my | :34:48. | :34:53. | |
constituents know that. They know that I am a tried and tested | :34:54. | :34:56. | |
campaign. I am privileged to have their support and to be able to do | :34:57. | :35:01. | |
what I said I would, to fly the flag for Hartlepool, put the town on the | :35:02. | :35:05. | |
map and fight all the way for those who elected me. | :35:06. | :35:08. | |
Thank you. Sir Peter Bottomley. I was not here | :35:09. | :35:13. | |
for most of the debate, but I would like to join with the honourable | :35:14. | :35:17. | |
member for Hartlepool in sending best wishes to Rodney Bickerstaff, | :35:18. | :35:28. | |
who I know. Can I say to the honourable member Fardy Puletua | :35:29. | :35:29. | |
supporters, congratulations on doubling the majority of his | :35:30. | :35:31. | |
predecessor, the House looks forward to many contributions from him. We | :35:32. | :35:34. | |
welcome his commitment to investment in his constituency, the more | :35:35. | :35:39. | |
controversial ones might get a riposte later. Add to the member for | :35:40. | :35:43. | |
Manchester Gorton, he comes to this House is one of the best qualified | :35:44. | :35:47. | |
to contribute to our debates for the reasons that were in his speech. He | :35:48. | :35:53. | |
will give Parliament a good reputation, and working across the | :35:54. | :35:58. | |
House, he and we can cooperate in trying to achieve many of the things | :35:59. | :36:01. | |
to which he is committed, I congratulate them both on their | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
maiden speeches. Alex Sobel. I would like to thank | :36:07. | :36:13. | |
Madam Deputy for calling me and the honourable friends who made great | :36:14. | :36:16. | |
maiden speeches today. The honourable member for Blaydon, for | :36:17. | :36:24. | |
Bury North, for Hartlepool and for Manchester Gorton. They were all | :36:25. | :36:28. | |
excellent, excellent speeches. I came into the house with them and I | :36:29. | :36:32. | |
am sure we will carry on our journey together to help transform this | :36:33. | :36:36. | |
country. I have been waiting 20 years to make a speech on a debate | :36:37. | :36:42. | |
on higher education funding and tuition fees, ever since the 23rd of | :36:43. | :36:47. | |
July 1997 when Ron Dearing published its report and I was an executive | :36:48. | :36:53. | |
officer of Leeds University union. In this most recent period, this | :36:54. | :36:59. | |
last three months, I have spoken to hundreds and hundreds of students | :37:00. | :37:03. | |
from the University of Leeds and Leeds back at university, since the | :37:04. | :37:05. | |
dissolution of Parliament they were not aware that their fees were | :37:06. | :37:13. | |
rising to ?9,250 from ?9,000, it was not made clear to them at all. The | :37:14. | :37:18. | |
Government seem to have created a tuition fee rise as DeLaet, in other | :37:19. | :37:24. | |
areas they are abandoning rise escalators but not in the area of | :37:25. | :37:30. | |
tuition fees, which are expected to hit ?10,000 by 2020. I wonder how | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
many students are aware of this? However, there was an additional | :37:37. | :37:39. | |
element with an Olympic style race being started for medals, gold, | :37:40. | :37:45. | |
silver and bronze awarded for quality. Future increases being | :37:46. | :37:49. | |
linked to the rostrum and creating a new hierarchy in higher education | :37:50. | :37:54. | |
where the gold medal winning universities can place their fees at | :37:55. | :38:01. | |
a higher. Turning to the issue of debt, the Institute for Fiscal | :38:02. | :38:04. | |
Studies has shown the average students graduate with over ?50,000 | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
worth of debt. The replacement of maintenance grants with loans means | :38:10. | :38:13. | |
the poorest students are the ones worst hit. The richest 30% of | :38:14. | :38:21. | |
households would have lower borrowings at only... Only 40 3000. | :38:22. | :38:26. | |
The poorest are hit hardest, the richest hit the least and the middle | :38:27. | :38:30. | |
in the middle. Is that the sort of system we are trying to create? How | :38:31. | :38:35. | |
much further must debt rise before the Government stops the debt spiral | :38:36. | :38:42. | |
it's created in 2012? Turning to loans, graduates have raised this | :38:43. | :38:47. | |
with me consistently over the last period and before I was a member of | :38:48. | :38:52. | |
Parliament. Students currently repay loans at 9% of their earnings over | :38:53. | :38:58. | |
?21,000. The repayment threshold was due to rise in line with earnings, | :38:59. | :39:05. | |
but in 2015 after the last general election the Conservative Government | :39:06. | :39:09. | |
froze the threshold until at least 2021. Inflation is rising, but the | :39:10. | :39:15. | |
repayment threshold is staying the same, effectively creating a real | :39:16. | :39:21. | |
terms increase in the payments. On top of that there is the high | :39:22. | :39:25. | |
interest rates. This is mortgage style debt, not a short-term loan. | :39:26. | :39:31. | |
The Government is treating it like one go, they are having to pay 3% | :39:32. | :39:37. | |
above RPI, which is currently 4.6. -- the Government are treating it | :39:38. | :39:42. | |
like Wonga. It will increase in the new academic year. Why are they | :39:43. | :39:46. | |
being lent many without fully knowing the repayment terms, and why | :39:47. | :39:50. | |
are they at the whim of the economic climate and the Government? Right? A | :39:51. | :39:57. | |
further irony is graduates who pay their loans back more quickly and | :39:58. | :40:00. | |
incur less debt than those on lower incomes had to wait longer to return | :40:01. | :40:06. | |
their payments and continually had to playback interest. We have a | :40:07. | :40:15. | |
triple whammy of rising seas, term cuts -- quadruple mummy of rising | :40:16. | :40:20. | |
fees, cuts, rising debt. Isn't this the worst of all worlds that has | :40:21. | :40:24. | |
been created? Students know no aspect of the system is fit for | :40:25. | :40:28. | |
purpose in the general election showed just that, with many new | :40:29. | :40:34. | |
honourable members, some of whom did maiden speeches, representing | :40:35. | :40:37. | |
university and student heavy seats, students have lost trust in the | :40:38. | :40:42. | |
Government and know the only party to fix the broken system is our | :40:43. | :40:47. | |
party on this side of the House, with the actions on both fees and | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
loans outlined by my honourable friend the member for | :40:53. | :40:58. | |
Ashton-under-Lyne. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Speaker. I was lucky | :40:59. | :41:02. | |
enough to go to polytechnic and study law in 1987 and have my | :41:03. | :41:07. | |
tuition fees paid in full, I am sure many people in this chamber went | :41:08. | :41:11. | |
into higher education and had their fees paid. I don't have the prospect | :41:12. | :41:15. | |
of having substantial debt at the end of my studies would have put me | :41:16. | :41:19. | |
off, but I know it would have made me stop and think a man that is the | :41:20. | :41:22. | |
crux of the problem with tuition fees. Many students whose families | :41:23. | :41:28. | |
might not even earn ?20,000 a year with seriously bulk that the idea of | :41:29. | :41:34. | |
having to pay back ?50,000. But with the replacement of maintenance | :41:35. | :41:38. | |
grants with loans, student debt from the poorer families will be much | :41:39. | :41:42. | |
higher than from wealthier ones. It is no accident that while some | :41:43. | :41:46. | |
average one in 20 freshers dropped out of university every year, this | :41:47. | :41:51. | |
is one in 12 in those from poorer families. Even when they graduate, | :41:52. | :41:55. | |
graduates from poorer families earn 10% less than those from wealthier | :41:56. | :42:02. | |
peers, who find it easier to get placements, internships and impress | :42:03. | :42:05. | |
CV is with better extracurricular activities. On jobs, many | :42:06. | :42:10. | |
professions including teaching and nursing are struggling to recruit | :42:11. | :42:14. | |
graduates, in part because of the low pay and the ability of graduates | :42:15. | :42:19. | |
to pay off their loans. Another factor of tuition fees and debt is | :42:20. | :42:24. | |
many young people are putting their lives on hold as they have delivered | :42:25. | :42:29. | |
their parents, sometimes well into their 30s, in order to save enough | :42:30. | :42:35. | |
to buy a home of their own, having a knock-on effect with relationships | :42:36. | :42:38. | |
and life choices like whether or not they want to start a family. It is | :42:39. | :42:45. | |
not just young people affected, many potential mature students and | :42:46. | :42:50. | |
part-time students have been put off studying since 2012, with tuition | :42:51. | :42:55. | |
fees when they were hyped up to ?9,000, we have seen an overall | :42:56. | :43:00. | |
decline of 61% in part-time students and 39% for mature students. The | :43:01. | :43:05. | |
Institute for Fiscal Studies estimates the average student debt | :43:06. | :43:11. | |
is ?50,000 on graduation and 77% of students are expected never to pay | :43:12. | :43:15. | |
off their loans entirely, it is scandalous that the Government is | :43:16. | :43:19. | |
trying to increase tuition fees at this time. The Government should | :43:20. | :43:23. | |
take immediate steps to reduce, not increase, tuition fees. We have | :43:24. | :43:26. | |
heard from the party opposite that they wanted to question Labour | :43:27. | :43:32. | |
policy on tuition fees. If they wanted to debate Labour Party policy | :43:33. | :43:35. | |
properly they should have voted for our amendment on Monday for more | :43:36. | :43:44. | |
opposition days. The question is is on the order paper. As many Arafat | :43:45. | :43:53. | |
opinions a aye. As many of that opinion is a aye? The contrary, no? | :43:54. | :43:58. | |
The ayes have it. The have it. And I thank honourable members. We | :43:59. | :44:10. | |
managed without a time limit to come in almost exactly perfectly on time, | :44:11. | :44:17. | |
and I pay tribute to the people who have made their maiden speeches this | :44:18. | :44:21. | |
afternoon and done so within the limits with which the Speaker asked | :44:22. | :44:26. | |
them to do. Thank you very much. We now call to the general debate | :44:27. | :44:33. | |
Union and sanctions. Minister, Mr Union and sanctions. Minister, Mr | :44:34. | :44:40. | |
Robin Walker. Thank you very much. May I give my | :44:41. | :44:47. | |
congratulations to those just giving their maiden speeches. The United | :44:48. | :44:50. | |
Kingdom has long been one of the most networked and outward looking | :44:51. | :44:54. | |
countries in the world. The Prime Minister has set out her vision for | :44:55. | :44:58. | |
the country following our exit from the union as a truly global Britain, | :44:59. | :45:02. | |
a country that goes out into the world to build relationships with | :45:03. | :45:05. | |
old friends and new allies. We hold fast to a vision of the UK that is | :45:06. | :45:10. | |
respected abroad, tolerant at home, engaged in the world and working | :45:11. | :45:14. | |
advance the prosperity and security advance the prosperity and security | :45:15. | :45:18. | |
of our nation. We live in a fast changing and uncertain world. The UK | :45:19. | :45:23. | |
faces a number of threats from state which act in contravention of | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
international law, from individuals paddling messages of hate or commit | :45:28. | :45:30. | |
acts of terror, from companies with corrupt basic standards of | :45:31. | :45:33. | |
behaviour, and this country needs as many tools as available to counter | :45:34. | :45:38. | |
these threats and influence the behaviour of others. Effective | :45:39. | :45:43. | |
targeted sanctions policy is one of those tools. Sanctions have helped | :45:44. | :45:49. | |
resolve complex and serious policy issues, for example, for bringing | :45:50. | :45:53. | |
Iran to the negotiating table to a Greek to robust constraints on its | :45:54. | :45:59. | |
nuclear programme. The UK currently implements sanction regimes, | :46:00. | :46:03. | |
resulting from the league binding resolutions of the European security | :46:04. | :46:11. | |
council. We must retain the ability to impose, up-to-date and left | :46:12. | :46:16. | |
sanction regimes, to comply with our international obligations and | :46:17. | :46:17. | |
our wider foreign policy and our wider foreign policy and | :46:18. | :46:21. | |
national security objections after exit the EU. The referendum result | :46:22. | :46:27. | |
was a clear message from the message of the United Kingdom that we need | :46:28. | :46:31. | |
to change our relationship with the EU and take back control of our | :46:32. | :46:35. | |
laws, and this Government is delivering on that instruction. | :46:36. | :46:38. | |
Through the ongoing negotiations, the second round which is underway | :46:39. | :46:41. | |
this week, and through the introduction of essential | :46:42. | :46:42. | |
legislation like the EU will which legislation like the EU will which | :46:43. | :46:49. | |
the scratch that was tabled last week. | :46:50. | :46:55. | |
Taken pack and that has been very prominent in the EU debate. Would | :46:56. | :47:07. | |
not want to apply ice action... Just to give us some idea of how much | :47:08. | :47:13. | |
control we need to take back on this particular topic. | :47:14. | :47:16. | |
To respond to the honourable gentleman later in my speech because | :47:17. | :47:19. | |
this is more about powers ban policy and the UK wants to pursue a | :47:20. | :47:25. | |
consistent policy but we will need powers as we are exiting the EU to | :47:26. | :47:33. | |
do so. The EU implementation of UN sanctions and the European sanctions | :47:34. | :47:36. | |
currently relies on the European Community 's act of 1972 and the UK | :47:37. | :47:42. | |
impose sanctions, notably in impose sanctions, notably in | :47:43. | :47:45. | |
domestic counterterrorism buzzed up but these are not sufficient. While | :47:46. | :47:55. | |
the EU withdrawal bill will freeze existing sanctions, it would not | :47:56. | :47:58. | |
provide the powers necessary to create new regimes are update, amend | :47:59. | :48:07. | |
or remove existing sanctions as we have had to do so in the past. When | :48:08. | :48:15. | |
the UK exits the EU in March 2019, we will need to have new legislation | :48:16. | :48:21. | |
in place. As set out in Her Majesty 's gracious speech, the sanctions | :48:22. | :48:23. | |
bill will be injured used to Parliament during this session. The | :48:24. | :48:27. | |
bill will be introduced and will focus on the powers and not policy, | :48:28. | :48:32. | |
establishing the legal framework we need is to continue" ending UN | :48:33. | :48:37. | |
sanctions and return decision-making powers on non-UN sanctions to the UK | :48:38. | :48:43. | |
was preferred learning bikes ability in relation to how we use those | :48:44. | :48:52. | |
powers. Does he not accept in terms of what | :48:53. | :49:00. | |
he is outlined that this really does underline the stupidity of some of | :49:01. | :49:03. | |
the arguments around sovereignty, because we are here imposing our own | :49:04. | :49:08. | |
sanctions regime, that we are less powerful and less influential acting | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
alone, would be through the EU? I do not agree. The referendum took | :49:13. | :49:18. | |
the key decision that we will be leaving, but it does not prohibit us | :49:19. | :49:23. | |
from working with allies in the EU are elsewhere. The UK will continue | :49:24. | :49:27. | |
to be a powerful influence in the world and we can be with allies on | :49:28. | :49:35. | |
May number of ways. To focus on the bill, the 21st of April, the | :49:36. | :49:40. | |
Government and the Foreign Office, treachery and others launched a nine | :49:41. | :49:44. | |
week consultation which closed in June. The consultation document was | :49:45. | :49:52. | |
published online and centre were over 30,000 individuals and | :49:53. | :50:01. | |
companies. This is with key sectors, the we got excellent -- legal | :50:02. | :50:11. | |
sector. The Government response will be pulled bullish swordplay. We | :50:12. | :50:15. | |
intend to preserve important elements of our current approach to | :50:16. | :50:17. | |
sanctions using them in a targeted sack Ashall way while minimising | :50:18. | :50:25. | |
unintended consequences. We will only designate to people when it is | :50:26. | :50:29. | |
justified by evidence and will provide a framework for sanction | :50:30. | :50:32. | |
persons to Tallinn should their designations in a court. We will | :50:33. | :50:36. | |
improve current practice where we can using the greater flexibility we | :50:37. | :50:39. | |
will have in future to provide guidance to future businesses and | :50:40. | :50:45. | |
grant licences to prevent sanctions from disrupting humour is airing | :50:46. | :50:49. | |
operations. The sanctions bill will ensure the UK is ready to continue | :50:50. | :50:55. | |
to play a leading role as a global foreign and suppose the actor. It | :50:56. | :51:00. | |
will meet our international obligations and spot our own foreign | :51:01. | :51:02. | |
policy and national security. It is clear sanctions... The mark and his | :51:03. | :51:16. | |
acting together, the best. UN sanctions are there for the gold | :51:17. | :51:20. | |
standard, as they bind the entire international community. As we see | :51:21. | :51:25. | |
in relation to Russia and Syria, we also need to be able to work with | :51:26. | :51:31. | |
the EU, the US and Canada and other allies to impose sanctions outside | :51:32. | :51:35. | |
the EU stratified UN framework. We can say with certainty... At the UK | :51:36. | :51:46. | |
exit. That will depend on the wider negotiations of our future | :51:47. | :51:50. | |
relationship in the fields of France through to policy. As others have | :51:51. | :51:53. | |
said, there is a clear mutual interest in a deep and special | :51:54. | :51:58. | |
partnership. We remain committed to European security and working with | :51:59. | :52:01. | |
our allies to counter global threats. Sanctions are an important | :52:02. | :52:07. | |
means and the bill will make sure we retain the necessary powers. I | :52:08. | :52:11. | |
welcome today's debate is an important objective for members to | :52:12. | :52:14. | |
feed into the vision for global Britain and discuss how our | :52:15. | :52:17. | |
sanctions regime will operate after we leave the EU. | :52:18. | :52:28. | |
Question is that this house has considered exiting the European | :52:29. | :52:35. | |
Union and sanctions. Sanctions are obviously an extremely | :52:36. | :52:42. | |
important policy lever. People think of sanctions being a modern policy | :52:43. | :52:50. | |
instrument, but he mentions them as being one of the instruments they | :52:51. | :53:02. | |
used against other. They are crucial nowadays and it is vital that | :53:03. | :53:09. | |
ministers have the power to implement these in line with | :53:10. | :53:12. | |
objectives and responsibilities. As the Minister has just said, the | :53:13. | :53:16. | |
Government produced a consultation gotten it at a document and I think | :53:17. | :53:22. | |
the deadline for people to respond to that was on the 23rd of June. The | :53:23. | :53:29. | |
plan was we would have a bill before the summary says, and I'm going to | :53:30. | :53:35. | |
ask the Minister where is the bill? Why have we not got the bill? | :53:36. | :53:43. | |
There was something called a general election that came along and jeering | :53:44. | :53:47. | |
that these things cannot be announced, so to have a proper | :53:48. | :53:50. | |
consultation and response it is only appropriate we should do that in the | :53:51. | :53:55. | |
coming few weeks and months and not have done it before which would have | :53:56. | :53:57. | |
been improper. I'm not suggesting that the bill | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
should have been produced in the middle of the general election, but | :54:04. | :54:06. | |
it is quite clear that the consultations were coming in over | :54:07. | :54:11. | |
that period, and his colleagues said, officials have been looking at | :54:12. | :54:19. | |
it and this is another example of the chaos and confusion which seems | :54:20. | :54:23. | |
to be evident on the Government's side in the whole Brexit process. We | :54:24. | :54:27. | |
have another example of this on Monday when without any explanation, | :54:28. | :54:34. | |
ministers withdrew the motion on the unified... So across the board, we | :54:35. | :54:41. | |
are seeing policy not being protest in a sensible way, these are not | :54:42. | :54:46. | |
chess pieces on a ward game, they are important areas of policy | :54:47. | :54:50. | |
responsibility. One of the things the papers said was that the legal | :54:51. | :54:57. | |
powers that we need to maintain sanctions will be contained in the | :54:58. | :55:03. | |
bill and this will not look at the policy goals or how we will align UK | :55:04. | :55:09. | |
sanctions in future with those imposed by the European Union. I can | :55:10. | :55:13. | |
understand the first part of that, but I really would like to know from | :55:14. | :55:18. | |
ministers if the second part can be true. For sanctions to be effective, | :55:19. | :55:23. | |
obviously they have to be coordinated with partners. Surely | :55:24. | :55:28. | |
the way our decisions are initiated and reviewed must be linked | :55:29. | :55:31. | |
explicitly with the processes of our partners in the UN and the European | :55:32. | :55:42. | |
Union. Hitherto, within the UN and EU, sanctions are often related to | :55:43. | :55:47. | |
upholding values set out in the Common foreign and Security policy | :55:48. | :55:49. | |
including human rights, democracy, including human rights, democracy, | :55:50. | :55:53. | |
good governance and the rule of law. These should continue to be | :55:54. | :55:56. | |
cornerstones for our policy protest Brexit. I would like to note the the | :55:57. | :56:02. | |
Minister could confirm this. Hitherto, the EU Council has adopted | :56:03. | :56:08. | |
decisions together with other regulation setting out the elements | :56:09. | :56:12. | |
of each individual sanctions regime. A number of UK Government | :56:13. | :56:15. | |
departments, principally the Home Office and others have then taken on | :56:16. | :56:22. | |
responsibility for implementation. Good the ministers explain to us | :56:23. | :56:24. | |
which Government department is going which Government department is going | :56:25. | :56:28. | |
to be in the lead forequarter and awaiting other Government | :56:29. | :56:30. | |
departments in this policy in future? In 1998, the | :56:31. | :56:35. | |
Government carried out a Government carried out a | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
wide-ranging review of UK sanctions policy in reporting to Parliament on | :56:42. | :56:44. | |
the outcome of that review, the Government outlined the course | :56:45. | :56:50. | |
principles of sanction policy as follows. They should be targeted to | :56:51. | :56:56. | |
hit the regime rather than ordinary people, including exemptions to | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
minimise the humanitarian impact on innocent civilians, have clear | :57:02. | :57:04. | |
objectives including well-defined and realistic demands against which | :57:05. | :57:09. | |
compliance can be judged and a clear exit strategy that should be | :57:10. | :57:14. | |
effected arrangements for implementation and enforcement by | :57:15. | :57:18. | |
all states, especially neighbouring countries, and they should avoid | :57:19. | :57:23. | |
unnecessary adverse impact on UK economic and commercial interests. | :57:24. | :57:27. | |
We believe these principles remain appropriate and I would like | :57:28. | :57:29. | |
assurance from ministers that they assurance from ministers that they | :57:30. | :57:36. | |
take the same view. In the consultation, the Government states | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
that primary legislation will create a framework containing powers to | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
impose sanctions regimes and the details will be laid out in | :57:46. | :57:47. | |
secondary legislation. This is secondary legislation. This is | :57:48. | :57:51. | |
somewhat vague. We seem to be offered quite a number of Henry VIII | :57:52. | :57:57. | |
powers at the moment and we would be grateful if ministers could tell us | :57:58. | :58:02. | |
what the proposals, what the what the proposals, what the | :58:03. | :58:04. | |
supervision and accountability arrangements with Parliament are | :58:05. | :58:12. | |
actually going to be. Assuming the bill creates a broad framework and | :58:13. | :58:16. | |
given the importance of ensuring that individual sanctions regimes | :58:17. | :58:18. | |
are carefully calibrated, we believe are carefully calibrated, we believe | :58:19. | :58:23. | |
there is a good case for saying that all secondary legislation imposing | :58:24. | :58:28. | |
UK sanctions should be subject to the affirmative resolution | :58:29. | :58:32. | |
procedure. In other words, new sanctions are changes to sanctions | :58:33. | :58:36. | |
would require a debate on the floor of the House rather than in | :58:37. | :58:40. | |
committee upstairs. Only such a mechanism would provide for the | :58:41. | :58:44. | |
requisite levels of Parliamentary scrutiny and the opportunity for us | :58:45. | :58:47. | |
to hold the Government to account. We'd also like to know what level of | :58:48. | :58:56. | |
oversight will be built into the process of removing sanctions. The | :58:57. | :59:02. | |
consultation paper says only both the UN and EU sanctions are subject | :59:03. | :59:08. | |
to internal reviews. We propose a similar approach under our new | :59:09. | :59:13. | |
legislation. Internal reviews could in the periodic reviews of | :59:14. | :59:17. | |
individual date with designations -- individual designations or entire | :59:18. | :59:22. | |
regime. Obviously, sanction regimes need to adapt to changing | :59:23. | :59:29. | |
circumstances so independent oversight and parliamentary | :59:30. | :59:32. | |
agreement is going to be essential. This is what we would like to have | :59:33. | :59:35. | |
some clarity about from ministers this afternoon. So that the | :59:36. | :59:41. | |
procedure of accountability and independent oversight are built into | :59:42. | :59:44. | |
any legislation. We would like the government to publish and annual | :59:45. | :59:50. | |
report interim implementation of the sanctions regime and give Parliament | :59:51. | :59:53. | |
a role in periodic reviews of sanctions. For instance, by making | :59:54. | :59:57. | |
the government's annual report subject of debate in both houses. As | :59:58. | :00:04. | |
well as giving Parliament a role in pre-authorising ongoing sanctions on | :00:05. | :00:08. | |
a yearly basis. It is really difficult for any meaningful debate | :00:09. | :00:13. | |
on this issue to take place until we have some more clarity on the extent | :00:14. | :00:19. | |
to which future he UK and EU cooperation can take place. As my | :00:20. | :00:23. | |
honourable friend the Member for Ilford said a queue moment ago, this | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
is particularly true of decisions as to whether sanctions should be | :00:28. | :00:31. | |
imposed only first is. The case of the Ukraine is a good example of why | :00:32. | :00:38. | |
it will remain important for us to work with the EU in the future. It | :00:39. | :00:42. | |
serves as perhaps the most prominent recent reminder of how collectively | :00:43. | :00:45. | |
imposed sanctions can have a real impact outside of the UN. Everybody | :00:46. | :00:52. | |
knows that the UK played a key role in making the intellectual case for | :00:53. | :00:57. | |
the sanctions and that the UK undertook significant diplomatic | :00:58. | :01:04. | |
efforts in the EU and at the G7, so can the Minister say how the | :01:05. | :01:09. | |
government will insure not just that UK EU cooperation on sanctions | :01:10. | :01:14. | |
continues after we leave the EU, but after how we will maintain our | :01:15. | :01:18. | |
ability to shape decisions as to when the EU sanctions are imposed in | :01:19. | :01:26. | |
the first place? We won't, he mumbles. Well, we'll hear ready the | :01:27. | :01:32. | |
Minister can enter these questions at the end of the debate. Instead of | :01:33. | :01:35. | |
remembering from the front lines like that. -- mumbling from the | :01:36. | :01:44. | |
front bench like that. What I was time to alert two is with that most | :01:45. | :01:48. | |
of these sanctions are imposed by the UN to whose authority we are | :01:49. | :01:58. | |
subject, as a member. Well I think the honourable gentleman's Khalid | :01:59. | :02:04. | |
that I think -- college that I think have the sanctions that we are | :02:05. | :02:09. | |
involved are not subject of the UN 's resolutions. They have been | :02:10. | :02:13. | |
secretary are separate from the European Union. Since the subject of | :02:14. | :02:19. | |
the debate is exiting the European Union, it is idea to focus on the | :02:20. | :02:27. | |
European angle. So, the government has issued a consultation and | :02:28. | :02:30. | |
scheduled this debate, but they are not able to explain how, in | :02:31. | :02:34. | |
practice, we will cooperate with our allies in the EU on issues like | :02:35. | :02:39. | |
intelligence sharing, policing and judicial matters and all of the | :02:40. | :02:44. | |
things that are needed to import force compliance with sanctions | :02:45. | :02:50. | |
regimes in ineffective way. At another example of the government's | :02:51. | :02:54. | |
recklessness in threatening to use security cooperation as a bargaining | :02:55. | :02:58. | |
chip in the Brexit negotiation. The role of the financial sector is | :02:59. | :03:05. | |
likely to be key in implementing any effective UK sanctions regime, | :03:06. | :03:08. | |
particularly in terms of tackling money-laundering and terrorism | :03:09. | :03:13. | |
funding. The size of the City of London means that our role is vital | :03:14. | :03:17. | |
and we have then leading but they do remain concerns about | :03:18. | :03:21. | |
money-laundering and sanctions evasion. A question is to what | :03:22. | :03:32. | |
extent how these sanctions regime will be applied to UK overseas | :03:33. | :03:36. | |
territories. It is clear that all the overseas territories play their | :03:37. | :03:40. | |
part, or could play a part in tracking down and clamping down on | :03:41. | :03:47. | |
illicit finance. This applies especially to those such as the | :03:48. | :03:50. | |
Cayman and British frozen islands, which have faced heavy criticism in | :03:51. | :03:56. | |
the past, but also to territories such as Bermuda, which are | :03:57. | :03:59. | |
responsible for their own legislation in this area. We would | :04:00. | :04:02. | |
like to hear from the government what is their assessment of whether | :04:03. | :04:07. | |
sanctions are being adequately implemented and enforced in all UK | :04:08. | :04:12. | |
overseas territories and Crown dependencies? Will the Channel | :04:13. | :04:15. | |
Islands and per unit responsible for their own legislation in this area | :04:16. | :04:21. | |
under a new regime? What steps will be government take to monitor | :04:22. | :04:26. | |
implementation and enforcement in overseas territories? And will they | :04:27. | :04:30. | |
commit to reporting regularly to Parliament on this? The question of | :04:31. | :04:33. | |
sanctions is indeed and important and significant one. It is a shame | :04:34. | :04:37. | |
that we have not had more clarity from the government today in the | :04:38. | :04:44. | |
form of legislation, but I do hope that the Minister, when he comes to | :04:45. | :04:48. | |
mind the debate, will be able to answer some of these questions. To | :04:49. | :05:00. | |
make her maiden speech, terminator knock. Thank you Manning dignitary | :05:01. | :05:13. | |
Speaker it is with the military -- humility than make my maiden speech | :05:14. | :05:17. | |
in representing Taffy Molden, the jewel at Essex. I am honoured to | :05:18. | :05:23. | |
represent the people of this beautiful constituency and I are | :05:24. | :05:26. | |
back in the play the faith that they are placed only. I am also burdened | :05:27. | :05:31. | |
by the weight of expectation. You see, Safran -- Saffron Walden has | :05:32. | :05:40. | |
not had a maiden speech since 1959. I am most proud that Rab Butler, | :05:41. | :05:47. | |
introduced the education act which gave every British child the | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
statutory right to free secondary education. I'm also privy to play to | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
the tribute to my predecessor who served Safran Walder -- Saffron | :06:02. | :06:08. | |
Walden through many years. He is well-known to the Deputy Speaker and | :06:09. | :06:12. | |
one of the kindest members to greatest house. The ultimate | :06:13. | :06:15. | |
gentleman. He is much loved in our constituency, and I am forever | :06:16. | :06:19. | |
grateful to him for being instrumental in helping the every | :06:20. | :06:25. | |
day of the campaign rain or shine. I am still bowled over when Sir Alan | :06:26. | :06:34. | |
became -- when reminded that Sir Allen became a member of Parliament | :06:35. | :06:38. | |
ten years before I was born. It was and noted following his footsteps | :06:39. | :06:44. | |
except when we were out on the canvassing and I found myself | :06:45. | :06:47. | |
consistently out run by and 80-year-old man. I am proud to be at | :06:48. | :06:54. | |
Essex girl and I'm happy to say that Saffron Walden was charged the best | :06:55. | :06:59. | |
rural place to live by no less than the Daily Mail. After seven years of | :07:00. | :07:05. | |
Conservative led government, unemployment is at all-time low at | :07:06. | :07:11. | |
0.7%, 99% of children go to a good or outstanding primary or secondary | :07:12. | :07:16. | |
school, we also boast the UK's oldest land college in middle. The | :07:17. | :07:23. | |
major settlement affected and the medieval market town of Saffron | :07:24. | :07:29. | |
Walden itself. It was called Saffron Walden because of its large saffron | :07:30. | :07:36. | |
crop. This price is worth it weight in gold used in medicine, perfume | :07:37. | :07:40. | |
and even as in aphrodisiac. Like the Safran Crocus, I am not a native of | :07:41. | :07:47. | |
the day -- Safran Crocus I'm not a native of Essex, I come from more | :07:48. | :07:51. | |
exotic climes and while I may not have all the attributes of this | :07:52. | :07:55. | |
flower, I hope that I have taken root in the area and can bring | :07:56. | :08:00. | |
prosperity to the area and add some colour and spice to this chamber. | :08:01. | :08:05. | |
Much has changed since then, but more changes needed. Change to the | :08:06. | :08:11. | |
network from which mobile phones operate change to the inadequate Mac | :08:12. | :08:19. | |
broadband network that is left parts of the community without access to | :08:20. | :08:23. | |
the modern world and part of the transport network. We cannot claim | :08:24. | :08:29. | |
to be one of the world leading areas of basic infrastructure is not | :08:30. | :08:35. | |
provided. My constituency let constituent are likely to get to | :08:36. | :08:42. | |
Spain before London. It has brought jobs and noise to the area and has | :08:43. | :08:49. | |
cemented my constituency is -- constituencies position as business | :08:50. | :08:55. | |
centre in Essex. I'm off and inextricably confused for a member | :08:56. | :08:57. | |
of the Labour Party. I cannot think why. I am a conservative. To all | :08:58. | :09:06. | |
intents and purposes, I met first-generation immigrant, born in | :09:07. | :09:10. | |
Wimbledon, yes, but I grew up in Nigeria. I chose to make the United | :09:11. | :09:14. | |
Kingdom my home. Growing up in Nigeria, I Soren poverty, I | :09:15. | :09:19. | |
experienced it. -- I saw real poverty and experienced it. Doing my | :09:20. | :09:25. | |
homework by candlelight because the state electricity board couldn't | :09:26. | :09:30. | |
provide power. Fetching water from a mile away in heavy but it -- bucket | :09:31. | :09:36. | |
because the nationalised water company can get water out of the | :09:37. | :09:41. | |
taps. I was unlucky to live under socialist policies, it was not | :09:42. | :09:45. | |
something I would wish under anyone. And it is one of the reasons why I'm | :09:46. | :09:51. | |
conservative. I believe it is a state should provide Social | :09:52. | :09:54. | |
Security, but it must also provide a means for people to lift themselves | :09:55. | :09:58. | |
out of poverty. As a woman of African origin, I also believe that | :09:59. | :10:01. | |
there is a lot that African contagious. Found money is not just | :10:02. | :10:12. | |
a catchy phrase, the lesson in Zimbabwe is still with us today. | :10:13. | :10:15. | |
Money cannot just be printed and read attributing cannot be -- | :10:16. | :10:20. | |
reiteration cannot be successful without... Society is a contract | :10:21. | :10:29. | |
between the living dead and those yet to be born. Tackling the debt | :10:30. | :10:36. | |
and deficit, we must hold Einar. This is part of our contract that we | :10:37. | :10:46. | |
owe to our distant they descendant. Manning Deputy Speaker, I believe in | :10:47. | :10:50. | |
free markets and free trade, but there is more to conservatism than | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
economic liberalism. Respect for the rule of law, personal | :10:56. | :10:59. | |
responsibility, freedom of speech of association and opportunity through | :11:00. | :11:03. | |
meritocracy. These freedoms are being eroded any nearer where | :11:04. | :11:11. | |
emotion and feeling is priced above region and logic. It is these | :11:12. | :11:16. | |
overnight were likely to defend in my time in this House. There are few | :11:17. | :11:22. | |
countries in this world where you can get from first-generation | :11:23. | :11:27. | |
immigrant to parliamentarian. People are choosing this country because of | :11:28. | :11:31. | |
its tolerance and opportunity. It is a land where a girl from Nigeria can | :11:32. | :11:36. | |
move here aged 16, the excepted as British and have the great honour of | :11:37. | :11:41. | |
representing Saffron Walden. There are some in this country, and in | :11:42. | :11:45. | |
this chamber, he seek to denigrate the traditions of this Parliament, | :11:46. | :11:49. | |
portraying this House is a Bastian privilege and class. One that reeks | :11:50. | :11:55. | |
of the establishment as someone said. It is no coincidence that | :11:56. | :11:58. | |
those who seek to understand the institutions of this island, | :11:59. | :12:04. | |
Parliament, the monarchy, church and family also propagate the worldview | :12:05. | :12:11. | |
that Britain and the values that we hold dear are a force about in the | :12:12. | :12:15. | |
world. Growing up in Nigeria life is rather different. The UK was a | :12:16. | :12:20. | |
beacon, a shining light, I promise of a better life. Often we hear John | :12:21. | :12:27. | |
Bright misquoted that the House of parliament is the mother of all | :12:28. | :12:33. | |
Parliament is. The axis says this country is the mother of all | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
Parliament. Politics is a mirror held up to society and I believe, | :12:39. | :12:47. | |
yet it can be a nullifying, yes we see -- edifying but we see much that | :12:48. | :12:53. | |
is great on display about a country. When I walked down this card and | :12:54. | :12:57. | |
enter this chamber passed project of my life heroes, wincing chamber, | :12:58. | :13:05. | |
every need and Margaret Thatcher I respect and feel pride for all that | :13:06. | :13:08. | |
it stands for. As Woody Allen said about sex, if it's not messy, you're | :13:09. | :13:13. | |
not doing it right. Madam Deputy Speaker, the same is true for | :13:14. | :13:20. | |
democracy. It was not was predictable, its results not always | :13:21. | :13:27. | |
elegant. It can throw at results that we didn't expect, but we're | :13:28. | :13:30. | |
just. The British chart Parliament has or was adjusted and that is why | :13:31. | :13:35. | |
is the oldest in the world because it takes its lead in the British | :13:36. | :13:38. | |
people. Face historic challenges. People are readily concerned about | :13:39. | :13:44. | |
what practical means the country, for their jobs and for their | :13:45. | :13:49. | |
families, but I do not believe that future is coming. I believe the | :13:50. | :13:54. | |
vector Brexit -- but the richest of the biggest vote of confidence in | :13:55. | :13:57. | |
the prospect of the United Kingdom that vision of a global Britain that | :13:58. | :14:00. | |
the Minister referred to. As a British woman now, I now have | :14:01. | :14:11. | |
the honour of delivering that promise for my constituents in the | :14:12. | :14:21. | |
greatest Parliament on earth. I would like to warmly welcome the | :14:22. | :14:26. | |
honourable lady for Saffron Walden. She has done a fantastic maiden | :14:27. | :14:31. | |
speech and she is a great credit to her community. It was delivered with | :14:32. | :14:37. | |
class and a great deal of weight, while I did not agree with | :14:38. | :14:41. | |
everything, I'm sure her contributions will be very welcome | :14:42. | :14:47. | |
to this chamber. The world looks on as the UK as the negotiations | :14:48. | :14:53. | |
developed to see how we will manage the situation that we find ourselves | :14:54. | :14:57. | |
then. How we manage it and what kind of relationship we plan to have with | :14:58. | :15:02. | |
the EU and the rest of the world. Without a coherent strategy and | :15:03. | :15:07. | |
seemingly bereft of ideas or as we have seen, notes, ie imagine the | :15:08. | :15:13. | |
external image of things going are not entirely positive. Our | :15:14. | :15:15. | |
international reputation is on the line. We on these pensions welcome | :15:16. | :15:21. | |
the opportunity to debate the impact of leaving the EU and what it will | :15:22. | :15:26. | |
have on our international in influence. There is a risk of | :15:27. | :15:32. | |
leaving the EU, the UK will be marginalised and diminished needs | :15:33. | :15:35. | |
National stage. I know no one wants to see that, but there be inevitably | :15:36. | :15:43. | |
a reduction or a complete loss of an ability to impose meaningful | :15:44. | :15:45. | |
sanctions on Arran, nor the ability to make any meaningful combo that is | :15:46. | :15:52. | |
Mac one of the Government's own colleagues has called for the UK to | :15:53. | :15:56. | |
keep its seat on the EU's security committee. Hopefully they will | :15:57. | :16:08. | |
invite those... Sanctions rarely operate effectively in isolation. | :16:09. | :16:11. | |
Success depends on a combined dialogue of agreement and prevention | :16:12. | :16:16. | |
between various countries. Working with the EU provides a broader range | :16:17. | :16:23. | |
of tools as compare to the UK operating alone. Giving up our seat | :16:24. | :16:26. | |
at the sanctions table will see the UK lose the ability to apply | :16:27. | :16:30. | |
sanctions with the same breadth and weight. The UK will also lose access | :16:31. | :16:38. | |
to key for rooms to push ongoing momentum and a card along fellow EU | :16:39. | :16:43. | |
states. There must not be any serious divergences from EU partners | :16:44. | :16:47. | |
in sanctions. We must not relax any sanctions that are material more | :16:48. | :16:53. | |
restrictive than existing or new EU sanctions, especially where the UK | :16:54. | :16:57. | |
has significant trade with a particular country. Many have raised | :16:58. | :17:01. | |
concerns that the UK may be dragged onto the new US best's rather | :17:02. | :17:07. | |
unpredictable turf. He has severely criticised the joint comprehensive | :17:08. | :17:11. | |
plan of action with Iran. If he were to impose new sanctions on Iran, | :17:12. | :17:16. | |
there may be pressure on the UK and hours bestial relationship to follow | :17:17. | :17:21. | |
suit. It also been indicated that the US would eat sanctions on | :17:22. | :17:28. | |
Russia. It has been indicated the EU will not changes policy towards | :17:29. | :17:34. | |
Russia, even if the US does. The UK must do likewise, leaning closer to | :17:35. | :17:39. | |
the administration of Donald Trump gives concern and we must hear from | :17:40. | :17:42. | |
the Government that it will continue to take its international | :17:43. | :17:45. | |
obligations seriously, keeping fairness and decency at the heart of | :17:46. | :17:49. | |
any new trade deals and sanction policies. The EU is the largest | :17:50. | :17:55. | |
trading bloc in the world and is the largest global aid donor and a | :17:56. | :18:02. | |
notable international investor. Commenting on the possible impact of | :18:03. | :18:06. | |
Brexit on the EU's and sanction policy, a doctor at the | :18:07. | :18:10. | |
International open studies in Geneva said a Brexit. It will also likely | :18:11. | :18:25. | |
strengthen Russia's hand against Europe as it benefits from a | :18:26. | :18:31. | |
fragmented Europe with a weaker tool box of security instruments at its | :18:32. | :18:34. | |
disposal. Those comments are deeply concerning and should worry us all. | :18:35. | :18:41. | |
A report said the UK relationship with Russia gives an interesting | :18:42. | :18:45. | |
insight into trouble ahead for the UK acting alone on sanctions. The | :18:46. | :18:49. | |
report concluded that it would be increasingly difficult to sustain a | :18:50. | :18:53. | |
united Western position on sanctions not least if they become a | :18:54. | :18:56. | |
bargaining point to join Brexit negotiations. My worry is there a | :18:57. | :19:01. | |
doubling to play for, but also everything to lose. We should all be | :19:02. | :19:07. | |
concerned because at our international role and | :19:08. | :19:09. | |
responsibilities extend further than Russia. On the 4th of April, the | :19:10. | :19:13. | |
latest is the result barbaric chemical weapons attacks took place | :19:14. | :19:20. | |
in Syria. More than 80 people were killed and estimates say 500 were | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
injured. In Brussels, the UK was able to play a central role in | :19:25. | :19:28. | |
imposing sanctions against those who were involved in that horrific | :19:29. | :19:33. | |
attack. The EU Frank affairs Council but 16 individuals will be | :19:34. | :19:37. | |
sanctioned, movement restricted and their assets frozen. After Brexit, | :19:38. | :19:42. | |
the UK will be diminished and we the UK will be diminished and we | :19:43. | :19:45. | |
will have no clout to impose meaningful sanctions resulting in | :19:46. | :19:52. | |
contribute to a progressive contribute to a progressive | :19:53. | :19:54. | |
international agenda. After Brexit, we will need to establish the | :19:55. | :19:59. | |
necessary independent policy design our protection which is reliant on | :20:00. | :20:08. | |
Brussels up until now. I'm grateful to the honourable lady | :20:09. | :20:11. | |
for giving way. She is making some very important points. Does this not | :20:12. | :20:16. | |
underline the argument is that she's making about the complex it is | :20:17. | :20:20. | |
imposing travel bans as it freezes and the rest and stopping those who | :20:21. | :20:30. | |
are the sanction tag of sanctions. The suite of instruments she refers | :20:31. | :20:35. | |
to are complex and then nature, at least not legislative. I do not see | :20:36. | :20:39. | |
how we will complete the process of putting in place a frown work that | :20:40. | :20:43. | |
we can apply independently in the tiny timescale we have before our | :20:44. | :20:45. | |
scheduled exit I think he may have been reading my | :20:46. | :20:56. | |
mind as he goes on to my next point. If the UK Government cannot agree | :20:57. | :21:01. | |
amongst themselves on a policy for Brexit and a deal, as we have seen | :21:02. | :21:04. | |
this week with the different approaches of the Chancellor and the | :21:05. | :21:08. | |
trade Secretary, I and others doubt the capacity. Let alone agree on | :21:09. | :21:15. | |
what and where the sanctions should be applied. If they do, we will be | :21:16. | :21:24. | |
seaweed is the diminished. The White Paper sets out in pretty stark | :21:25. | :21:28. | |
language that the UK needs to be able to impose an implement | :21:29. | :21:32. | |
sanctions another to comply with our obligations and the United Nations | :21:33. | :21:36. | |
Charter to support our wider foreign policy and national security goal. | :21:37. | :21:44. | |
Many of those flow from the community, so we need new legal | :21:45. | :21:48. | |
powers to replace these. It is not possible to achieve this through the | :21:49. | :21:51. | |
Great Repeal Bill as freezing sanctions would not give the powers | :21:52. | :21:58. | |
to amend sanctions in order to those fast-moving events. Events are | :21:59. | :22:02. | |
moving fast, we have a shot period, said the Government needs to think | :22:03. | :22:07. | |
carefully and give it response on that transition period. Any new | :22:08. | :22:10. | |
legislation must be clear on the powers developed and implemented and | :22:11. | :22:15. | |
further to that, what infrastructure and regulation will look like to | :22:16. | :22:18. | |
support the new powers. Additionally, the Law Society of | :22:19. | :22:21. | |
Scotland has raised even number of points in relation to the UK | :22:22. | :22:26. | |
Government's White Paper. The points raised as significant because they | :22:27. | :22:31. | |
highlight the complexity the scale of the task not to mention just how | :22:32. | :22:38. | |
many sectors area of with the impact by exiting the EU and the need for a | :22:39. | :22:43. | |
new set of rules and regulations. It is clear that lawyers, consultants, | :22:44. | :22:46. | |
going to be very busy over the next few years and no doubt considerably | :22:47. | :22:53. | |
richer. What estimation has been made at the cost of training lawyers | :22:54. | :22:56. | |
and accountants on these new laws and regulations on what provision | :22:57. | :23:00. | |
has been considered for the teaching of new regulations and laws at | :23:01. | :23:04. | |
suggestions. We need to have a suggestions. We need to have a | :23:05. | :23:07. | |
workforce that will be ready to go when it arrives. Cross-border | :23:08. | :23:13. | |
jurisdiction also arises on page 23 of the white paper and the Law | :23:14. | :23:17. | |
Society of Scotland are concerned. It identifies special advocates and | :23:18. | :23:23. | |
barristers and independent practice of the highest integrity experience | :23:24. | :23:28. | |
and ability from practices are bound by the ethical standards of the bar | :23:29. | :23:34. | |
Council. I know many would like clarity and assurances that special | :23:35. | :23:36. | |
advocates should be able to be drawn from the ranks of not only be | :23:37. | :23:39. | |
bargaining with Wales but bar in Scotland in Northern Ireland in all | :23:40. | :23:48. | |
of these jurisdictions. Again, it is the UK Government, whether by | :23:49. | :23:52. | |
accident or intent has failed to recognise a basic and fundamental | :23:53. | :23:55. | |
level of other devolved nations that exist. According to the Law Society | :23:56. | :24:00. | |
of Scotland, they have proposed the powers to freeze funds and assets | :24:01. | :24:05. | |
appears to be unrelated to the withdrawal of the UK from the EU. | :24:06. | :24:11. | |
This seems a curious thing to sneak in. Can the Secretary of State | :24:12. | :24:14. | |
clarify why this has happened at this juncture. It concerns me that | :24:15. | :24:20. | |
legislation that is potentially legislation that is potentially | :24:21. | :24:26. | |
unrelated to the U K exiting the EU. We need to understand the rationale. | :24:27. | :24:30. | |
to have very little if no time to do to have very little if no time to do | :24:31. | :24:35. | |
its day job as it deals with the enormity of Brexit, but the | :24:36. | :24:38. | |
Government has some serious questions to answer on how they will | :24:39. | :24:40. | |
manage to develop their sanctions policy. It is key to our reputation | :24:41. | :24:45. | |
on the global stage on how we will work with the rest of the world. | :24:46. | :24:51. | |
To make his maiden speech, Mr Andrew. | :24:52. | :25:00. | |
May I thank the honourable member for Livingston for her speech which | :25:01. | :25:05. | |
was comprehensive but rather different in its thrust to mine and | :25:06. | :25:13. | |
I mustn't pass on the opportunity to refer to my honourable friend from | :25:14. | :25:15. | |
Saffron Walden for her excellent speech. The really great camaraderie | :25:16. | :25:22. | |
that she and I and the rest of our intake have enjoyed this time, | :25:23. | :25:27. | |
Saffron Walden I'm particularly fond of his is is where my mother went to | :25:28. | :25:37. | |
college. I hope she did not get annoyed at me for saying that. I'm | :25:38. | :25:43. | |
truly honoured to have been chosen to be the member of Parliament for | :25:44. | :25:48. | |
Northampton South. I have got the Utes to fill in a town that is rich | :25:49. | :25:54. | |
with an industrial history that Manufacturer 's boots and | :25:55. | :25:55. | |
There is not a place in the world There is not a place in the world | :25:56. | :25:59. | |
where a British man woman has not left barefoot print with a | :26:00. | :26:05. | |
Northampton or shoe, jungle, snow laden plane, and in 1830, there were | :26:06. | :26:10. | |
40 shoe and boot manufacturers that employed a third of all the men in | :26:11. | :26:16. | |
Northampton. That is actually making boots and shoes. The fortunes of the | :26:17. | :26:24. | |
town's boot and shoe industry as risen, fallen and risen again, and | :26:25. | :26:27. | |
though we're left with only a handful of shoe manufacturers, they | :26:28. | :26:32. | |
would use of the most exclusive undesirable handmade shoes in the | :26:33. | :26:38. | |
Elizabeth Grammar School in Elizabeth Grammar School in | :26:39. | :26:43. | |
Ashbourne taught me the value of tradition with the metaphor of | :26:44. | :26:47. | |
footprints, I would like to knowledge the work of Mr David | :26:48. | :26:51. | |
McIntosh, though his tenure was short, his impact on footprint on | :26:52. | :26:57. | |
public service to this House and constituents were significant. When | :26:58. | :27:00. | |
I recently visited the Hope Centre in Northampton which is a local | :27:01. | :27:07. | |
charity bombing he was held in high regard their pushing through the | :27:08. | :27:09. | |
homeless reduction act and his work on combating homelessness. The | :27:10. | :27:16. | |
Northampton South seat was established in 1974, and those who | :27:17. | :27:19. | |
represented the seat as the licking their footprints on public life to | :27:20. | :27:24. | |
this day. Lord Naseby sits in the other place and still has | :27:25. | :27:29. | |
his work with Northamptonshire his work with Northamptonshire | :27:30. | :27:33. | |
County Cricket club, Mr Tony Clark who succeeded him in 1977 was a | :27:34. | :27:37. | |
passionate public servant and interviews to be so today by | :27:38. | :27:41. | |
educating the young models of the town in local FV college will stop | :27:42. | :27:48. | |
and Mr Brian Bingley, known to many here and still centrally involved | :27:49. | :27:51. | |
Northampton alive. Charles Bradlaugh Northampton alive. Charles Bradlaugh | :27:52. | :28:03. | |
was a particularly famous Northampton MP. A radical, someone I | :28:04. | :28:08. | |
came across many years ago in my postgraduate research with Edward | :28:09. | :28:17. | |
Newdigate in him in some debates crossed the House than taking oath | :28:18. | :28:18. | |
and an affirmation. Spencer Percival, also very | :28:19. | :28:28. | |
well-known in this chamber. What is interesting about 20 personal visit | :28:29. | :28:33. | |
speeches made about him in previous years made reference, quite | :28:34. | :28:43. | |
light-heartedly to his fate, but now only think of Spencer we think much | :28:44. | :28:47. | |
more recent and tragic events from. We think about the risks of people | :28:48. | :28:55. | |
run money enter into public services. Also Francis Crick who | :28:56. | :28:59. | |
with James Watson helped discover DNA, now the driving force of so | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
many scientific breakthroughs and discoveries. Also, less well-known | :29:03. | :29:07. | |
people like Walter Taal who played for Northampton town football club | :29:08. | :29:13. | |
and Spurs. He was the British Army's first black officer and he fought | :29:14. | :29:17. | |
and fell after any credible war record during the First World War, | :29:18. | :29:25. | |
he was last killed in 1918. Also Margaret Bonfield fought briefly for | :29:26. | :29:31. | |
Northampton. The first female cabinet Minister Minister, so big | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
shoes indeed to fill. Madam Deputy Speaker, the constituency of | :29:38. | :29:43. | |
preventing card is home of Barclaycard, Cosgrove, Travis | :29:44. | :29:47. | |
Perkins, prestigious employers in the area. But I would like to draw | :29:48. | :29:57. | |
the attention to the Tetbury -- fit brewery. And very welcome return it | :29:58. | :30:03. | |
is. Pickering fits so fully member of Parliament from 1874 at 1880 and | :30:04. | :30:10. | |
in many ways his brewery and Northampton and the tanning and shoe | :30:11. | :30:17. | |
manufacturing is this possible for the revival of the real ale many | :30:18. | :30:23. | |
factoring trend. Northampton is one of the fastest-growing towns in this | :30:24. | :30:27. | |
country and it has been for decades, and I noticed that all of our | :30:28. | :30:29. | |
predecessors maiden speeches made reference to it. They as I come will | :30:30. | :30:34. | |
make reference to the pressure on public services, challenges for the | :30:35. | :30:42. | |
high Street and housing. I would be campaigning with my honourable | :30:43. | :30:48. | |
friend the MP for Northampton North for more funds for Northampton | :30:49. | :30:52. | |
Hospital to meet the needs of a rapidly than in town. We need more | :30:53. | :30:57. | |
focused regeneration effort and as championed by Northampton Borough | :30:58. | :31:01. | |
Council and the county council, and emphasis on culture and heritage to | :31:02. | :31:04. | |
bring new vitality to Northampton town centre. I hope my former time | :31:05. | :31:10. | |
as a county council leader will be of help to that, but and here is the | :31:11. | :31:15. | |
link to the debate topic, just over one month ago I was a member of the | :31:16. | :31:21. | |
European Parliament in Brussels. I'd been told, and I keep saying it and | :31:22. | :31:26. | |
no one contradicted me, that I'm the only person ever to have served as a | :31:27. | :31:31. | |
council leader, and NEP and in MP. -- and as and NEP I specialise in | :31:32. | :31:38. | |
cultural education and redevelopment and I thought things that mattered | :31:39. | :31:40. | |
to me such the possible continuation of the Erasmus plus programme or a | :31:41. | :31:55. | |
home-grown successor. I don't know if that's Erasmus or the home-grown | :31:56. | :31:58. | |
successor... I also spent quite a lot of time working on the revision | :31:59. | :32:04. | |
of the mid-video media services directive, making a case for | :32:05. | :32:10. | |
avoiding the burden of overregulation while protecting | :32:11. | :32:14. | |
freedom of speech. As and NEP I was particularly interested in religious | :32:15. | :32:18. | |
freedom and particularly highlighted the case of as a baby who is under a | :32:19. | :32:25. | |
sentence of death in Pakistan and I had in this case to continue safer | :32:26. | :32:31. | |
from the terrible that she is in. I was a reluctant lever but I still | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
believe it the right choice for the UK. In many ways the complexity of | :32:38. | :32:43. | |
leaving simply underlines how much we have lost and reminds us how much | :32:44. | :32:49. | |
of our work you is not just about getting a good deal as we leave, but | :32:50. | :32:53. | |
being ready to innovate in policy areas that this House has a baby | :32:54. | :32:56. | |
gone, or even much of a say about, for many years. Trade, environment, | :32:57. | :33:03. | |
agriculture. Not something rigging to get a deal on but something we | :33:04. | :33:08. | |
are going to work on and in innovate for ourselves and forth. So, | :33:09. | :33:15. | |
finally, back to tradition and that of describing 1's constituency as | :33:16. | :33:18. | |
the most beautiful. Northampton certainly don't as some beautiful | :33:19. | :33:26. | |
buildings -- does have some people building, but is my nonconformist | :33:27. | :33:30. | |
and Methodist roots saying that much of it roots -- beauty lives in its | :33:31. | :33:35. | |
industriousness and much of the country has as a whole is to be | :33:36. | :33:39. | |
found there. But also, much of us that will challenge us as | :33:40. | :33:45. | |
politicians can also be fined within its boundaries. -- found within its | :33:46. | :33:55. | |
boundaries. Make kill your. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker is a great | :33:56. | :33:59. | |
pleasure to follow to such excellent maiden speeches. I congratulate the | :34:00. | :34:02. | |
honourable member for Saffron Walden, we share a background in | :34:03. | :34:09. | |
love for the Londoners sub Billy -- assembly and also for Nigeria but my | :34:10. | :34:14. | |
frustration as well that that wonderful country faces so many | :34:15. | :34:17. | |
challenges still. I look forward to working with her over the coming | :34:18. | :34:23. | |
years. I also congratulate the Member for Annette Hanson South -- | :34:24. | :34:30. | |
for Northampton South who described his illustrious predecessors but | :34:31. | :34:36. | |
given his record he has illustrious future editing here. Congratulations | :34:37. | :34:41. | |
to both of those members. But, today, we're here to discuss exiting | :34:42. | :34:45. | |
the European Union and sanctions. And I want to discuss both of those | :34:46. | :34:48. | |
things together instead of separate the because I think they are both | :34:49. | :34:52. | |
very connected. I reiterate the comment made by honourable friend | :34:53. | :34:55. | |
from the front bench which is, where is the Bill, Minister? We have | :34:56. | :35:03. | |
already seen the publication of the grand Repeal Bill, but this Bill is | :35:04. | :35:07. | |
pretty important in connection with that. You cannot do the one without | :35:08. | :35:11. | |
the other. It really sums up as the honourable lady said, the challenges | :35:12. | :35:16. | |
of how we timetable and deliver on this hugely challenging programme. | :35:17. | :35:23. | |
For over Parliament over the next 20 months. The Minister's response to | :35:24. | :35:28. | |
that from the dispatch box underlines the lack of planning we | :35:29. | :35:33. | |
have seen on the accounts committee that I've had the privilege of | :35:34. | :35:36. | |
cheering to the last two years. We've repeatedly had examples from | :35:37. | :35:38. | |
the permanent secretary about the lack of permanent permanent planning | :35:39. | :35:45. | |
-- planning and deliberate policy. So, for example, on the 7th of July | :35:46. | :35:52. | |
the permanent secretary confirmed that the Prime Minister confirmed | :35:53. | :35:54. | |
several points at the civil service was not as a whole, preparing for | :35:55. | :36:02. | |
Brexit. And we had on the 14th of July, sorry, the 13th of July from | :36:03. | :36:08. | |
the permanent secretary at the then Department of business. We were | :36:09. | :36:11. | |
following the guidance given by ministers which is not to make | :36:12. | :36:14. | |
contingency plans for this outcome. And we had from John Thomson, the | :36:15. | :36:22. | |
permanent secretary of HMRC on the 26th of October, the eight serious | :36:23. | :36:27. | |
areas that his department has to consider rig with regard to Brexit | :36:28. | :36:33. | |
and equipment to the wall because it's not the main point, but just | :36:34. | :36:38. | |
take customs alone, because as he put it, we run ?14 billion of them | :36:39. | :36:46. | |
and tax credits, their excise this is it me maybe, there's VAT and the | :36:47. | :36:51. | |
question of what differences would make direct at to direct taxes and | :36:52. | :36:56. | |
state aid. And he goes on to list other concerns and if you take HMRC | :36:57. | :37:00. | |
as example of the challenges that this government its parliament faces | :37:01. | :37:06. | |
as we move over the next 20 months to leaving the European Union, that | :37:07. | :37:11. | |
department already is going to huge change. Huge change and estate | :37:12. | :37:15. | |
management, huge change in its IT huge change anyway tackles and deals | :37:16. | :37:19. | |
with taxes. We all know that it takes about 18 months with a fair | :37:20. | :37:23. | |
wind to make major changes to a tax system, hence I did quite far in | :37:24. | :37:27. | |
advance, but there's a technical point. And yet the Chief Executive | :37:28. | :37:38. | |
HMRC has listed eight other serious areas of concern. It is more than | :37:39. | :37:41. | |
one department can realistically manage analysis one department. And | :37:42. | :37:46. | |
I here is one man actually had a list, other department I won't even | :37:47. | :37:51. | |
mention. It took about the discussions, the meetings, but none | :37:52. | :37:56. | |
of it really concrete about their exit from the European Union. I will | :37:57. | :38:05. | |
give way... She makes personal -- pertinent points about the | :38:06. | :38:07. | |
challenges for HMRC and going through this transitional points. | :38:08. | :38:12. | |
This unit also share my concern that the transition it's going through, | :38:13. | :38:17. | |
the changes, particularly about living standards, that highly | :38:18. | :38:22. | |
trained staff are going to be lost because of that transition that the | :38:23. | :38:25. | |
government is going through. And on top of that and it is a perfect | :38:26. | :38:31. | |
storm about to hit us? The honourable lady raises a very import | :38:32. | :38:38. | |
sport then if you add on the other changes going on, changes of | :38:39. | :38:43. | |
property and movement of jobs, we have a real challenge in this | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
country about skills anyway. If you add onto that exiting the European | :38:47. | :38:51. | |
Union and the fact that we have still got so many unanswered | :38:52. | :38:57. | |
questions about what will happen to our European colleagues residing in | :38:58. | :39:00. | |
the UK and others who wish to come here and we heard about the NHS | :39:01. | :39:03. | |
needing to bring in a large number GPs from the European Union because | :39:04. | :39:08. | |
we are not training enough here in this country. Then some of these | :39:09. | :39:12. | |
policies, whatever you thought of them before, now we're seeing | :39:13. | :39:16. | |
skilled people not able to move to the new locations and yet not having | :39:17. | :39:20. | |
a skill strategy to feel not just those gaps but the other gaps that | :39:21. | :39:25. | |
we may see if we leave the EU. It is a perfect storm as the right way of | :39:26. | :39:30. | |
putting it and I can think of fruitier ways of describing the | :39:31. | :39:38. | |
matter but I will leave that to the honourable member Saffron Walden who | :39:39. | :39:42. | |
searched the Mac OS X the boundaries further than I will on this | :39:43. | :39:50. | |
occasion. We have other on members who are interested in seeing the | :39:51. | :39:53. | |
challenges that other departments are facing in terms of active in the | :39:54. | :39:57. | |
EU, its lack of planning in that respect and this lack of joined up | :39:58. | :40:02. | |
Miss across government -- connectedness across government. | :40:03. | :40:06. | |
Because they will have knock-on effects across departments. You | :40:07. | :40:12. | |
cannot see the things in isolation and there is not yet a plan and I | :40:13. | :40:17. | |
hope that the Minister can give me any rear-seat delete match at Reus | :40:18. | :40:25. | |
yearns -- reassurance that what I'm saying will not happen. They were | :40:26. | :40:30. | |
told very definitely not to plan for the leave scenario which is put them | :40:31. | :40:36. | |
very much on the back foot. Out thank my friend through giving away, | :40:37. | :40:44. | |
but she highlights the need for proper transition arrangements. It's | :40:45. | :40:47. | |
not just the time period, but it seems to me that what she is saying | :40:48. | :40:52. | |
is very much in argument for at least a in transition that this | :40:53. | :40:55. | |
country should remain part of customs union and part of the single | :40:56. | :41:01. | |
market. All of the points she has just made for the highlight that. As | :41:02. | :41:13. | |
we approach our summer recess with only one Bill publicly make a | :41:14. | :41:18. | |
various silly point. When we come back in the autumn, not too busy | :41:19. | :41:26. | |
getting going to October, we will have not even 18 months after | :41:27. | :41:29. | |
October to really get this show on the road, and, unassuming in hoping | :41:30. | :41:35. | |
that ministers will work 24-7 over the summer to get us to a better | :41:36. | :41:39. | |
place, but even then, just the timetabling of business credit cards | :41:40. | :41:42. | |
means that whenever your philosophical point is, this cannot | :41:43. | :41:49. | |
be done in time. I may even be very positive about staying in a year as | :41:50. | :41:52. | |
a constituent, but let's be practical about the reality. The | :41:53. | :41:57. | |
delay in delivering the sanctions Bill is just one of many concerns | :41:58. | :42:01. | |
and while I think it's important that I let the concerns that many of | :42:02. | :42:06. | |
my constituents who are EU citizens and the uncertainly -- uncertainty | :42:07. | :42:13. | |
they are facing people are stopping me and phoning me in tears about | :42:14. | :42:18. | |
their concerns for the future. The Prime Minister has told us that | :42:19. | :42:21. | |
there will be a mechanism for those people who are already living here | :42:22. | :42:26. | |
as EU citizens to regularise their stay. That would be published until | :42:27. | :42:31. | |
the end of 2018 and there are still no certainty on the cost. I was a | :42:32. | :42:35. | |
Home Office minister, with all the best will in the world, is much like | :42:36. | :42:45. | |
the reality is the Home Office faces real challenges in dealing with the | :42:46. | :42:48. | |
number of people that will be going through its immigration system. It | :42:49. | :42:50. | |
is something that I grappled with as a minister and I didn't solve but as | :42:51. | :42:56. | |
backbenchers we will fight for why have a high number of people going | :42:57. | :43:01. | |
to the system. The idea that by the end of next year to the point when | :43:02. | :43:04. | |
we leave, all those people want to get your regularisation process, it | :43:05. | :43:09. | |
frankly can't do the land. It's not surprising that those who can't | :43:10. | :43:13. | |
afford to do it now or going through the long-winded process of getting | :43:14. | :43:22. | |
residency and citizenship. I spoke to one of my residences putt said | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
constituents this weekend using international banker, she said to me | :43:27. | :43:33. | |
if I'm not wanted here, I might just leave. The herder is a real option | :43:34. | :43:37. | |
to leave because she can probably get a good job somewhere else. There | :43:38. | :43:41. | |
are skilled people like that who have given up their lives in other | :43:42. | :43:45. | |
countries to come to the UK, who feel very much like turning their | :43:46. | :43:48. | |
back on us. There are many others who had been settled here for a very | :43:49. | :43:54. | |
long time 15-20 years, with children growing up here who are very | :43:55. | :43:56. | |
concerned about what the future holds for them. Late in the day I | :43:57. | :44:02. | |
have to say, we do need is resolving, sooner rather than later. | :44:03. | :44:07. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, the main thrust of today's debate is this | :44:08. | :44:11. | |
debate about sanctions and I am very strongly of the view | :44:12. | :44:18. | |
This is not because I'm trying to rewind the clock on the referendum | :44:19. | :44:23. | |
as this is not where I want to be, but this is the simple question why | :44:24. | :44:26. | |
would we have gone differently from the EU on sanctions in the past. | :44:27. | :44:32. | |
There are also issues around money-laundering and how we deal and | :44:33. | :44:35. | |
approach these big international issues such as freezing assets | :44:36. | :44:41. | |
around boundaries, travel bans and trade and market restrictions are | :44:42. | :44:43. | |
only just a small part of that sanctions approach. The challenges | :44:44. | :44:49. | |
of timetabling this bill to fit in with the Great Repeal Bill is | :44:50. | :44:54. | |
another practical problem. It is difficult enough, and I have been at | :44:55. | :44:57. | |
the table in Europe for three years negotiating umpire... With 27 of the | :44:58. | :45:03. | |
member states on home affairs issues in my case, but it takes long enough | :45:04. | :45:08. | |
to get agreement that way but it is possible. Trying to get this bill | :45:09. | :45:11. | |
through I'm trying to remind us where we would normally agree with | :45:12. | :45:15. | |
our European counterparts is going to be incredibly challenging. How | :45:16. | :45:19. | |
you write that in law at this pace is going to be difficult. We need to | :45:20. | :45:23. | |
be frank that this House is not very good at legislation. What happens is | :45:24. | :45:27. | |
the Government write it often in a hurry and we will be writing quite a | :45:28. | :45:31. | |
lot in a hurry. The House gets very little chance to seriously amended. | :45:32. | :45:36. | |
We need to be Connie Biggs we can most likely end. Often it is not | :45:37. | :45:41. | |
hang together well. We repent at leisure and then we had to take a | :45:42. | :45:45. | |
long time to pick things and I do not think that is true in every | :45:46. | :45:47. | |
case, but we have often seen that and we will see that whether we beat | :45:48. | :45:52. | |
ministers, backbenchers are we deal with the organs of constituents. | :45:53. | :45:56. | |
With the UK college alone? I hope the Minister can be clear on that, | :45:57. | :46:02. | |
no. Why do you find a way to hook ourselves to the status quo very | :46:03. | :46:08. | |
transition period at least because I fearful with no bill, when it | :46:09. | :46:14. | |
eventually comes will not fit in. Simple questions for the Minister in | :46:15. | :46:20. | |
a summing up. Procedurally, can he explain how the Government intends | :46:21. | :46:23. | |
to timetable the repeal Bill and the future sanctions Bill and make sure | :46:24. | :46:29. | |
we can get them to work together so there is not a contradiction between | :46:30. | :46:33. | |
the two because it would be a crazy situation to end up legislating on | :46:34. | :46:37. | |
two separate issues relating to Europe and finally do not work | :46:38. | :46:43. | |
together. And great for the chance to | :46:44. | :46:46. | |
contribute and can I add my congratulations and best wishes to | :46:47. | :46:51. | |
the honourable members for Saffron Walden and Northampton South on | :46:52. | :46:55. | |
their maiden speeches. They both spoke with enormous passion and | :46:56. | :47:00. | |
commitment to their constituents. Two very different speeches. I do | :47:01. | :47:05. | |
not think there is any question on how committed both members are to | :47:06. | :47:09. | |
their constituents. Welcome to both. I've got the Woody Allen quote was | :47:10. | :47:19. | |
about my attempt on cooking, but... It seems to me directly different | :47:20. | :47:22. | |
things that could happen from the United Kingdom not automatically | :47:23. | :47:28. | |
down by sanctions in the European Union. Where the EU does not because | :47:29. | :47:36. | |
normal pay any attention we cannot impose sanctions where the EU does | :47:37. | :47:41. | |
which means we will be dealing with some very dodgy characters indeed on | :47:42. | :47:44. | |
the world stage. Watson is probably the is that we will allow the EU to | :47:45. | :47:50. | |
take decisions without any input from the United Kingdom and then we | :47:51. | :47:53. | |
will just obediently follow suit. Even that is not without its risks. | :47:54. | :47:59. | |
I'm hoping the Minister can tell us what assessment has been made of the | :48:00. | :48:04. | |
legal risk of the United Kingdom imposing sanctions on its own but | :48:05. | :48:09. | |
have been imposed by the European Union. It seems that might be put | :48:10. | :48:15. | |
off taking on the European Union in the cost might seem an individual | :48:16. | :48:19. | |
stand-alone legislator as a stronger target. What is being made of the | :48:20. | :48:24. | |
risk that that the United Kingdom will find itself being involved and | :48:25. | :48:28. | |
sued in the court every time the European Union does something that | :48:29. | :48:30. | |
the bullyboys of copper business do not want to take on EU but will have | :48:31. | :48:36. | |
a pop at one of the little island in the North Atlantic. The Minister | :48:37. | :48:40. | |
referred to wanting to work with other countries as well within the | :48:41. | :48:45. | |
EU and the specifically mentioned the United States of America. It has | :48:46. | :48:52. | |
already been raised some of the lambs we should be listening to on | :48:53. | :48:57. | |
that. This is a president who we recently discovered how they | :48:58. | :49:00. | |
secluded unrecorded and meeting with Vladimir Putin at due 20. We do not | :49:01. | :49:05. | |
know if it was the context of a possible trade deal or a possible | :49:06. | :49:08. | |
state finish or maybe they just wanted to catch up with his | :49:09. | :49:12. | |
unofficial election agent, but what happens if those talks by the United | :49:13. | :49:20. | |
break sanctions against Russia put break sanctions against Russia put | :49:21. | :49:23. | |
up why would that the leave the United Kingdom, across the Atlantic, | :49:24. | :49:31. | |
our best friend said, the EU says no and we have got to say no. Can the | :49:32. | :49:36. | |
in the Minister given assurance of any clap box Keenan that comes up... | :49:37. | :49:50. | |
There will be no lessening of sanctions by the United Kingdom | :49:51. | :49:54. | |
unless that has been agreed by the entire EU. A further concern is if | :49:55. | :50:02. | |
the UK decided to impose sanctions on but nobody else did, I think we | :50:03. | :50:07. | |
have two remind ourselves that the United Kingdom is no longer a | :50:08. | :50:12. | |
colonial power. The sunsets every day on the British Empire, the | :50:13. | :50:16. | |
British Empire does not extend any further than the British Isles and | :50:17. | :50:21. | |
some political machismo, the UK some political machismo, the | :50:22. | :50:23. | |
attempts to impose sanctions on attempts to impose sanctions on | :50:24. | :50:27. | |
countries for whatever reason no one else does. I was then to say we're | :50:28. | :50:32. | |
political laughing stock, but I think it is too late for that. I | :50:33. | :50:37. | |
wondered if we could be told is name a single example of a country with | :50:38. | :50:43. | |
unilateral sanctions that would make a bit of difference. It seems to me | :50:44. | :50:48. | |
that we are frantically with a huge amount of hassle to take back | :50:49. | :50:53. | |
control of something that attempt to exercise that control unilaterally | :50:54. | :50:57. | |
in a isolationist manner is going to achieve nothing. It will be | :50:58. | :51:03. | |
significant expense and legal risk for the UK. My friend back from | :51:04. | :51:07. | |
Livingston raised some of the Commons that have been raised by the | :51:08. | :51:10. | |
Law Society of Scotland. One of the other things they have identified is | :51:11. | :51:16. | |
that if the UK once on its own to start imposing sanctions for example | :51:17. | :51:21. | |
on countries are believed to be sponsoring terrorism, and I will not | :51:22. | :51:27. | |
report on what happened in Saudi Arabia, and there is no suggestion | :51:28. | :51:30. | |
at all that Saudi Arabian Government is involved in anything on your full | :51:31. | :51:35. | |
in Yemen are anything else. How anyone could possibly suggest that. | :51:36. | :51:42. | |
What steps the Government taking to arrive at it legally sound | :51:43. | :51:45. | |
definition of a terrorist supporting state actually is? The door is open | :51:46. | :51:53. | |
for is to be sued by any aggrieved party. That shows what can happen | :51:54. | :52:03. | |
with the definition of terrorism is a good two veg. I've never known- to | :52:04. | :52:10. | |
be Iceland to be a country to support terrorism. Although I can | :52:11. | :52:17. | |
understand the need for the Government to talk positively and | :52:18. | :52:20. | |
bullishly about every single aspect, despite the fact that the majority | :52:21. | :52:26. | |
voted against it in the referendum, we need to be realistic, we need to | :52:27. | :52:31. | |
be alert to the fact that the UK trading position could be at risk. | :52:32. | :52:35. | |
The UK's international reputation could be at risk and the economy | :52:36. | :52:41. | |
could be damaged. The Minister chose not to name a single example of EU | :52:42. | :52:46. | |
sanctions that the Government would want to lift just now, nor give a | :52:47. | :52:50. | |
single example for the United Kingdom would like to impose | :52:51. | :52:54. | |
sanctions that have not been imposed by the EU. This appears to be | :52:55. | :52:58. | |
another example where there is desperation to take back control has | :52:59. | :53:05. | |
come before any sensible intelligent consideration. In some time, control | :53:06. | :53:10. | |
is better by nations packed in together than one tiny island in the | :53:11. | :53:14. | |
North Atlantic and that things it can do it all by itself. IT is my | :53:15. | :53:24. | |
first opportunity to welcome you to your new seat in this chamber. It is | :53:25. | :53:29. | |
great to see you where you are. We have had useful and informative | :53:30. | :53:33. | |
debate this afternoon, slightly shorter than we anticipated because | :53:34. | :53:36. | |
of other important debates that have taken place. We have had some | :53:37. | :53:41. | |
helpful contributions from across the House, including a maiden speech | :53:42. | :53:47. | |
from the member for Saffron Walden who likened herself to her | :53:48. | :53:52. | |
constituency's namespace spice. I'm sure she'll she has a wonderful | :53:53. | :53:57. | |
future and her constituents will be rightly proud of her today. The | :53:58. | :54:03. | |
member for Northampton South spoke of his pride in his constituency | :54:04. | :54:08. | |
boot making heroin stage and his affection far... And it was a | :54:09. | :54:14. | |
pleasure to be here for the maiden speeches. The member for Hackney in | :54:15. | :54:22. | |
Shoreditch spoke for the need of transitional arrangements and this | :54:23. | :54:28. | |
arrangement is all but over. There will be the transitional period and | :54:29. | :54:32. | |
I do look forward to the day when a minister will stand up that dispatch | :54:33. | :54:38. | |
box and tell us what we all know now to be inevitable. This debate has | :54:39. | :54:43. | |
been helpful in that it follows the White Paper on international | :54:44. | :54:47. | |
sanctions published in April and precedes the introduction of the | :54:48. | :54:52. | |
bill. Is the Government considering adopting a similar approach to the | :54:53. | :54:56. | |
other Brexit related bills announced in the Queens my honourable friend | :54:57. | :55:02. | |
for Bishop Auckland asked where is the bill, but perhaps the new | :55:03. | :55:05. | |
approach is a welcome sign of a new collaborative approach from the | :55:06. | :55:10. | |
Government because making sure that Parliament has sufficient grip on | :55:11. | :55:13. | |
the Brexit process is important to the Labour Party and to the country. | :55:14. | :55:19. | |
Many of our constituents voted to leave the European Union because | :55:20. | :55:24. | |
they want to see this House take control of our lawmaking and so it | :55:25. | :55:28. | |
falls to MPs to take tight hold of this process and not allow the | :55:29. | :55:34. | |
Government to take decisions, gravel powers or devise processors that | :55:35. | :55:37. | |
exclude Parliament. The UK withdrawal bill proposes sweeping | :55:38. | :55:44. | |
delegated powers but lacks effective oversight of Arab accountability. | :55:45. | :55:48. | |
This is fundamentally undemocratic and unacceptable and the Labour | :55:49. | :55:52. | |
Party will not wait through bills back to demean our parliament in | :55:53. | :55:58. | |
this way. We're yet to see the draft legislation on sanctions over we do | :55:59. | :56:02. | |
have the Government is not developing a habit and does not put | :56:03. | :56:06. | |
something before the house that seizes more powers for the ministers | :56:07. | :56:12. | |
than is absolutely necessary. The study Government has made with its | :56:13. | :56:17. | |
withdrawal bill is bad and needs to change, presenting poor legislation | :56:18. | :56:20. | |
before this house and then getting upset when the Government opposition | :56:21. | :56:26. | |
declines to support it is not in the national interest and the Government | :56:27. | :56:31. | |
and must do better. Labour agrees that international sanctions is a | :56:32. | :56:35. | |
vital issue that must be resolved before we leave the EU. We recognise | :56:36. | :56:41. | |
this and will not seek to obstruct the forthcoming legislation | :56:42. | :56:45. | |
needlessly. But it is vital that we get the details right. This is too | :56:46. | :56:50. | |
important to get wrong, Britain needs the ability to act | :56:51. | :56:53. | |
unilaterally when it is appropriate to do so, but were attending to | :56:54. | :56:56. | |
influence restrict the capabilities of states such as North Korea, Sudan | :56:57. | :57:01. | |
or Iraq, it is the combined effort of many nations that may over time | :57:02. | :57:10. | |
bring the change we want to see. Britain's national security is | :57:11. | :57:12. | |
enhanced by working with our European alleys and there is no | :57:13. | :57:15. | |
reason why this cannot continue after Brexit. The Government needs | :57:16. | :57:21. | |
to set out detailed plans for future cooperation between the UK and the | :57:22. | :57:27. | |
EU in this area. And any decision to impose new sanctions are evoked | :57:28. | :57:31. | |
existing ones must be subject to adequate scrutiny and periodic | :57:32. | :57:36. | |
review. So the Government needs to make clear how it intends to enable | :57:37. | :57:40. | |
Parliamentary scrutiny of decisions when the intention seems to me to be | :57:41. | :57:45. | |
making regular use of secondary legislation. Does the Minister agree | :57:46. | :57:49. | |
that the sanctions decisions are to be subject to a debate and a vote in | :57:50. | :57:55. | |
this house? Ministers was not be allowed to make it up as they go | :57:56. | :58:00. | |
along. The decision to implement sanctions on art will have a | :58:01. | :58:05. | |
significant impact on the UK's standing internationally, our | :58:06. | :58:08. | |
relationships with other nations and our ability to influence. The | :58:09. | :58:11. | |
Minister needs to reassure the house that there will be a process in | :58:12. | :58:16. | |
place that is transparent, fair and accountable to members of this | :58:17. | :58:20. | |
House. Does the Minister plan to provide regular updates to the House | :58:21. | :58:25. | |
on the impact of measures and will this requirement beyond the face of | :58:26. | :58:30. | |
the Bill? It is clearly desirable for the UK to consider working | :58:31. | :58:35. | |
closely with the EU after we leave. Our ability to work together to | :58:36. | :58:39. | |
impose sanctions especially when the UN has declined to do so is | :58:40. | :58:44. | |
extremely important. And we also need to maintain our ability to | :58:45. | :58:49. | |
influence our EU partners so sanctions are as effective as they | :58:50. | :58:53. | |
can be. With this in mind, does the Government intend these measures | :58:54. | :58:58. | |
coming to force an exit today, or might sanctions in the end form part | :58:59. | :59:02. | |
of the now inevitable transitional period? | :59:03. | :59:06. | |
Dunn the government need to make it clear whether or not they plan to | :59:07. | :59:15. | |
participate in common EU policy and if so what arrangements they plan on | :59:16. | :59:27. | |
putting in place. EU playing tough sanctions on goods in Crimea | :59:28. | :59:34. | |
including goods unless they had Ukrainian constituencies. -- the | :59:35. | :59:42. | |
ability to agree among 28 sanctions that record mated with the United | :59:43. | :59:47. | |
States made in the Normans difference to world affairs. 28 | :59:48. | :59:51. | |
countries left to their own device would not have had identical | :59:52. | :59:56. | |
sanctions or got around to the negotiating table. The ability to do | :59:57. | :00:00. | |
that is very important. Madam Deputy Speaker, the government's approach | :00:01. | :00:03. | |
to sanction policy in the forthcoming Bill will be read as a | :00:04. | :00:09. | |
signal of its intent to align itself or distance itself from working with | :00:10. | :00:12. | |
like-minded international partners. To does the government intend to | :00:13. | :00:17. | |
work more closely with the US ought to continue to align with Europe in | :00:18. | :00:23. | |
a common foreign and Security policy? If so, how? Do we want to | :00:24. | :00:27. | |
negotiate continued permit membership of the EU's political | :00:28. | :00:32. | |
Security committee as Lord Haig has proposed? Or does the government | :00:33. | :00:37. | |
envisage a looser parallel arrangement? These may seem, and I | :00:38. | :00:44. | |
could see from the ministers face it he thinks he's a big questions | :00:45. | :00:49. | |
before any legislation is made public, but these are the questions, | :00:50. | :00:54. | |
the extent and nature of collaboration,, named then means | :00:55. | :00:58. | |
with EU and other nations, the use of secondary legislation and the | :00:59. | :01:01. | |
role of this House that the government must be able to enter to | :01:02. | :01:05. | |
win the confidence, not just of MPs, but add the country. In addition to | :01:06. | :01:18. | |
welcoming you to the chair, may I salute to absolutely exemplary | :01:19. | :01:21. | |
maiden speeches which we have today. My honourable friend Chris Ashton | :01:22. | :01:27. | |
Morgan, which great confidence -- for Saffron Walden. Of course I'm | :01:28. | :01:36. | |
personally slightly saddened that the population of Sir Alan is in | :01:37. | :01:40. | |
this House has been reduced by one, but her speech was utterly charming | :01:41. | :01:45. | |
and beautifully judged and I can see, as can all of us, why Saffron | :01:46. | :01:50. | |
Walden has so rapidly taken to her. I said rapidly and I meant rapidly. | :01:51. | :02:00. | |
The locally produced saffron aphrodisiac will soon be on sale in | :02:01. | :02:06. | |
the parliament shop and I urge members to form and orderly queue. A | :02:07. | :02:13. | |
good sense of economic is a message that we should all here in this | :02:14. | :02:17. | |
House and I congratulate her on her speech. As I do my honourable friend | :02:18. | :02:22. | |
for Northamptonshire. -- Northampton South. He has been the diligent | :02:23. | :02:25. | |
representative for the East Midlands and he remains local to them | :02:26. | :02:32. | |
Midlands as Northamptonshire South MP. His passion for Northamptonshire | :02:33. | :02:38. | |
shoes was evident and I assure him I am a loyal customer of said shoes | :02:39. | :02:44. | |
and we always try to raise a glass we can charge of either Carlsberg or | :02:45. | :02:49. | |
Phipps. He can ever be proud of the maiden speech he made tonight. As my | :02:50. | :02:54. | |
honourable friend the Minister said in his opening speech, discovered | :02:55. | :02:57. | |
intent to continue working closely with allies to counter threats, such | :02:58. | :03:02. | |
as terrorism, conflict and the proliferation of nuclear weapons. | :03:03. | :03:07. | |
And effective and targeted sanctions policy is a very important means to | :03:08. | :03:11. | |
that end, and a global Britain will continue to use sanctions to | :03:12. | :03:16. | |
influence the behaviour of others as part of a broad and internationally | :03:17. | :03:20. | |
coordinated approach. We currently implement over 30 sanctions -- | :03:21. | :03:28. | |
tensions sanction regime as well as targeted groups. Most of these | :03:29. | :03:32. | |
result from resolutions of the UN security council or decisions by the | :03:33. | :03:37. | |
European Union, and typically they involve travel bans, asset freezes | :03:38. | :03:39. | |
and financial and trade restrictions. Now both UN and EU | :03:40. | :03:43. | |
sanctions are currently brought into effect in the UK through the | :03:44. | :03:49. | |
European Communities Act of 1972. This House has heard about the | :03:50. | :03:54. | |
principles we apply when imposing sanctions. Clear objectives linked | :03:55. | :04:07. | |
to wider political aims clear. And minimising the unintended | :04:08. | :04:11. | |
consequences of those sanctions. I want to reassure everyone that this | :04:12. | :04:14. | |
government rate remains committed to these pencils. Today's debate is | :04:15. | :04:19. | |
about the principle of whether we want to have the UK should establish | :04:20. | :04:24. | |
a sanctions regime which allows us to replicate the sanctions powers | :04:25. | :04:29. | |
currently deriving from our mentorship of the EU. If, very | :04:30. | :04:37. | |
briefly if you would? Dunn will he commit therefore for the 34 current | :04:38. | :04:45. | |
for the current 34 if imitation is a sanctions. Will they be the same as | :04:46. | :04:54. | |
brackets Brexit. But eye there are 30, and ill be subject of the | :04:55. | :04:57. | |
statutory decisions of this House and this House might reject them, | :04:58. | :05:02. | |
but the intention is to remain aligned with EU existing sanctions, | :05:03. | :05:15. | |
so that we are in harmony with them. He said though there be subject to | :05:16. | :05:18. | |
voting in this House, and my to read into that that he intends these | :05:19. | :05:24. | |
measures to be subject to the affirmative resolution procedure? I | :05:25. | :05:26. | |
will come to that in just a moment if I may. Madam Deputy Speaker, a | :05:27. | :05:33. | |
sanctions Bill will enable the UK to appears -- impose update and lift | :05:34. | :05:38. | |
sanctions in response to fast-moving events. The European with Robbo will | :05:39. | :05:45. | |
not be enable us to do this because we will need powers to be simply | :05:46. | :05:47. | |
preserved or freeze existing sanctions. So, the lifting UN act is | :05:48. | :05:53. | |
also insufficient for UN sanctions, because in 2010 the UK court ruled | :05:54. | :06:01. | |
that it could not be used to implement asset freezes and that | :06:02. | :06:03. | |
additional powers were needed from measurement of this Raza measures of | :06:04. | :06:07. | |
this kind and to avoid infant from the right. To remain compliance with | :06:08. | :06:15. | |
international law after really the EU, it will ensure that the UK | :06:16. | :06:21. | |
continues to play a central role in shaping UN sanctions and it will | :06:22. | :06:24. | |
return decision-making powers of non-UN sanctions to the UK. As my | :06:25. | :06:30. | |
honourable friend has said, the Bill will focus on powers, not policy. As | :06:31. | :06:35. | |
such, it might be described as a framework Bill. It will provide | :06:36. | :06:41. | |
powers to implement UN sanctions and to impose UK sanctions, either | :06:42. | :06:45. | |
independently, or with the cooperation of allies. Now, the | :06:46. | :06:49. | |
question of how we use these powers, will be addressed later when we | :06:50. | :06:52. | |
introduced sedentary legislation applying sanctions to particular | :06:53. | :06:59. | |
countries. We bat secondary legislation. We are obliged to | :07:00. | :07:03. | |
introduce sanctions but... The content of the Bill will take | :07:04. | :07:08. | |
account of the consultation mentioned by my honourable friend in | :07:09. | :07:11. | |
his opening speech and we envisage forming elements. These include | :07:12. | :07:18. | |
powers to impose sanctions were justified and appropriate, to ensure | :07:19. | :07:21. | |
individuals and organisations can challenge the sanctions, to exempt | :07:22. | :07:28. | |
or a license certain types of activity that otherwise might be | :07:29. | :07:31. | |
restricted, such as humanitarian deliveries and supplies in countries | :07:32. | :07:35. | |
that might been thanked, and amend and adopt recommendations for | :07:36. | :07:41. | |
anti-money-laundering and counterterrorist action. Madam | :07:42. | :07:43. | |
Speaker detailed scrutiny of the Bill can only come once it's | :07:44. | :07:47. | |
published and that is why will have a second reading stage and so on as | :07:48. | :07:55. | |
this has always does. In response to mainly the opposition front bench | :07:56. | :07:57. | |
questions perhaps I can respond to some of them in the time I've got, | :07:58. | :08:02. | |
but although I'm running out of it. Where's the Bill? Well, we are in | :08:03. | :08:05. | |
the consultation process we just federal election, we just had | :08:06. | :08:15. | |
product -- Pogba. The honourable lady said he will leave? I can tell | :08:16. | :08:19. | |
her that the FCO will take the lead on foreign policy, including | :08:20. | :08:22. | |
sanctions. On the question put by the opposition front bench on the | :08:23. | :08:27. | |
procedures we intend to adopt, will it be affirmative or negative? We | :08:28. | :08:32. | |
know it, and it's in important point for the efficacy of functions, that | :08:33. | :08:36. | |
delay involved with affirmative procedures can lead to asset flight, | :08:37. | :08:44. | |
before their frozen or court. We are considering their let this issue and | :08:45. | :08:46. | |
we will respond as part of consultation response which will | :08:47. | :08:50. | |
published very shortly. I have no time, I'm very sorry were running | :08:51. | :08:55. | |
out. The honourable lady also asked about every seat territories. The UK | :08:56. | :09:02. | |
has responsibility -- overseas territories the UK has | :09:03. | :09:04. | |
responsibility for overseas territories and Crown dependencies, | :09:05. | :09:12. | |
and we will continue our policies that these dependencies and | :09:13. | :09:15. | |
territories apply UK and international sanctions. My | :09:16. | :09:19. | |
honourable colleague is chairing regular meetings with these | :09:20. | :09:24. | |
dependencies and territories and how best to approach these, and we will | :09:25. | :09:30. | |
include legislation where appropriate in the Bill. Madam | :09:31. | :09:39. | |
Deputy Speaker I would say very clearly that I believe that we were | :09:40. | :09:44. | |
will not lose its ability to be part of international sanctions creation | :09:45. | :09:51. | |
and discussion. The UK with its international allies was a key | :09:52. | :09:55. | |
player in securing Iran's nuclear deal and we will continue our | :09:56. | :09:59. | |
constructive and productive relationship with our European and | :10:00. | :10:01. | |
international partners after we leave the EU. The honourable | :10:02. | :10:07. | |
gentleman asked about the legal risk of the UK adopting EU sanctions. In | :10:08. | :10:15. | |
other words, as having a separate regime and doing it individually. | :10:16. | :10:18. | |
Now, the UK will take the responsibility for the sanctions it | :10:19. | :10:23. | |
adopts, including taking on legal risks. In working with the EU, we | :10:24. | :10:28. | |
will take all necessary steps, coordinating sanctions and sharing | :10:29. | :10:33. | |
information to reduce the risk. If the risk is not acceptable, we do | :10:34. | :10:37. | |
not have to follow the EU. There are some other issues, Madam Deputy | :10:38. | :10:42. | |
Speaker that we haven't had to discuss, but I'm sure we will at | :10:43. | :10:45. | |
second reading and in consideration of the Bill, such as civil | :10:46. | :10:50. | |
liberties, for instance, there is a very delicate balance to be struck | :10:51. | :10:55. | |
between using sanctions to counter threats such as terrorism, and | :10:56. | :10:58. | |
respecting due process to protect the right of individuals. There is | :10:59. | :11:05. | |
also the issues of abuses and violations of human rights as a | :11:06. | :11:08. | |
reason to impose sanctions. The government is firmly committed to | :11:09. | :11:13. | |
promoting in stinking universal human rights and holding to account | :11:14. | :11:16. | |
states responsible for the worst file agent and indeed, men and that | :11:17. | :11:21. | |
the last Parliament the government amended the criminal finance act to | :11:22. | :11:27. | |
allow law enforcement agencies to use civil recovery powers to recover | :11:28. | :11:30. | |
the proceeds of human rights abuses or violations wherever they take | :11:31. | :11:34. | |
place where that property is held in the UK. We also have powers to | :11:35. | :11:41. | |
include -- exclude from the UK, individuals whose presence is not | :11:42. | :11:44. | |
conducive to the public good and we operate a watchlist system to | :11:45. | :11:48. | |
support this. Madam Deputy Speaker we all also know that innocent | :11:49. | :11:52. | |
individuals and organisations can sometimes be inadvertently affected | :11:53. | :11:57. | |
by sanctions. We hear reports of this, for example, from Unitarian -- | :11:58. | :12:04. | |
humanitarian organisations delivering assistance in country | :12:05. | :12:07. | |
subject to them. We will do everything we can to minimise in | :12:08. | :12:11. | |
unintended consequences. We will publish guidance to make UK | :12:12. | :12:14. | |
sanctions regime is as clear as possible to the individuals and | :12:15. | :12:17. | |
companies affected. We will have more flexibility than we do now to | :12:18. | :12:22. | |
issue general licences to humanitarian organisations in order | :12:23. | :12:25. | |
to cut bureaucracy and make it much easier for them to continue | :12:26. | :12:29. | |
operating in the most difficult of circumstances. Madam Deputy Speaker, | :12:30. | :12:33. | |
the Bill will be published in due course, the consultation will be | :12:34. | :12:38. | |
coming out soon, the response to that, and I would urge the House to | :12:39. | :12:41. | |
appreciate that as we look across the world and see the dangers of | :12:42. | :12:45. | |
terrorism and misconduct of all sorts, to have and effective | :12:46. | :12:50. | |
sanctions regime is absolutely crucial to our foreign policy and to | :12:51. | :12:53. | |
making the world a better place and to replicate a sanctions policy once | :12:54. | :12:59. | |
we've left the EU is absolutely essential and if we don't do that | :13:00. | :13:03. | |
the world would be the poorer place because of it. The question is that | :13:04. | :13:13. | |
this House has considered exiting the European Union and sanctions. As | :13:14. | :13:18. | |
many as are of the opinion, say aye. Of the contrary, no. I think the | :13:19. | :13:28. | |
ayes have it. The ayes habit. -- have it. | :13:29. | :13:39. | |
There is concern that the Government is not on the track to cut carbon | :13:40. | :13:48. | |
budgets. Note that in order to meet the UK's commitment to meet the | :13:49. | :13:53. | |
carbon budget, action is necessary. Further notes on climate change | :13:54. | :13:57. | |
reported in June 2017 and concluded that the UK can successfully | :13:58. | :14:02. | |
navigate the transition to a growing low carbon economy, that new | :14:03. | :14:04. | |
policies to deliver the policy are overdue and further notes that much | :14:05. | :14:09. | |
domestic legislation for reducing emissions and reducing climate | :14:10. | :14:12. | |
change is either contingent on the UK membership of the EU are ends in | :14:13. | :14:18. | |
are around 2020 including are not limited to the leather control | :14:19. | :14:23. | |
framework, fuel efficiency standards for new cars, renewable heat | :14:24. | :14:27. | |
incentives, flood defences to protect homes and businesses and | :14:28. | :14:33. | |
targeted by diversity plans to combat climate change. The petition | :14:34. | :14:37. | |
is request that this House urges the Government to lay before it their | :14:38. | :14:42. | |
plans for meeting the fourth and fifth carbon budget. The petition | :14:43. | :14:45. | |
remained. Petition climate change. The house | :14:46. | :15:14. | |
is now adjourned. The question is that this House do now adjourned. | :15:15. | :15:26. | |
Thank you I am grateful to you Mrs Deputy Speaker for me the time to | :15:27. | :15:29. | |
raise the issue of the closure of the Tesco operations system in my | :15:30. | :15:34. | |
constituency of Cardiff North with the loss of up to 1100 jobs. If you | :15:35. | :15:42. | |
will allow me, I want to do three things this evening. To highlight | :15:43. | :15:46. | |
the way in which Tesco has acted, to describe the human impacts of these | :15:47. | :15:52. | |
actions and to explore why we response to these things and next | :15:53. | :15:58. | |
steps. On Wednesday 21st of June and without warning or consultation with | :15:59. | :15:59. | |
either the Welsh UK Government, either the Welsh UK Government, | :16:00. | :16:04. | |
Tesco announced it would be closing its customer contact centre in | :16:05. | :16:09. | |
Cardiff from February next year leading up to the loss of 1100 jobs | :16:10. | :16:14. | |
and a possible relocation of 150 of the jobs to Dundee. The centre deals | :16:15. | :16:19. | |
with enquiries from consumers all over the UK including those via | :16:20. | :16:25. | |
social media and has a highly motivated, skilled workforce who | :16:26. | :16:29. | |
take great pride in their work. On the morning of the 24th of June, | :16:30. | :16:35. | |
staff went to work as usual. On arrival, some were told by visiting | :16:36. | :16:39. | |
management to create the top floor and find somewhere else in the | :16:40. | :16:43. | |
building to work. And events management company had been brought | :16:44. | :16:48. | |
in to install a PA system. Stuff then received an e-mail inviting | :16:49. | :16:51. | |
them to a meeting on the top floor at 1pm. Crowded into that room on | :16:52. | :16:58. | |
the top floor, an official statement was then read out telling them they | :16:59. | :17:03. | |
would all be made redundant. There was no opportunity for questions. | :17:04. | :17:08. | |
This shock announcement has inevitably had a huge impact on the | :17:09. | :17:13. | |
dedicated staff there, some of whom have worked there for over 20 years | :17:14. | :17:17. | |
and some who have two or three members of the same family working | :17:18. | :17:24. | |
there will stop I will give way. Did she share my disgust at many of | :17:25. | :17:31. | |
constituents only found out about constituents only found out about | :17:32. | :17:37. | |
the closure on social media? MY honourable friend, some staff | :17:38. | :17:41. | |
members who were not there that day only found out through social media | :17:42. | :17:47. | |
that they had lost their jobs and there also seem to be no formal | :17:48. | :17:50. | |
means of contacting them are managing their concerns. Following | :17:51. | :17:55. | |
the announcement, I met with the Tesco executives to press them on | :17:56. | :17:59. | |
their reasons for the job losses and white jobs in Dundee have seemingly | :18:00. | :18:02. | |
been prioritised over jobs in Cardiff. We were told there was an | :18:03. | :18:08. | |
more space in Dundee and the company had already taken the decision to | :18:09. | :18:11. | |
have one site where customer relations staff are based. They were | :18:12. | :18:17. | |
unable to provide any reason why they had not entered into | :18:18. | :18:19. | |
discussions with the either the UK Government are the Welsh Government. | :18:20. | :18:27. | |
I will give way. I congratulate on securing this. I | :18:28. | :18:32. | |
have constituents affected by this absurd decision. Would she agree | :18:33. | :18:37. | |
that it is bizarre for Tesco to not have those reasons, particularly | :18:38. | :18:40. | |
when Cardiff is getting a reputation for an excellent centre for customer | :18:41. | :18:46. | |
care centres, many people choosing Cardiff for the excellent skills | :18:47. | :18:49. | |
there. I agree with my honourable friend | :18:50. | :18:54. | |
that that absolutely is the case. The reality is that these job losses | :18:55. | :19:02. | |
are the latest in a string of cuts in the amended as part of a | :19:03. | :19:06. | |
so-called turnaround plan by Dave Lewis, the group Chief Executive who | :19:07. | :19:12. | |
joined Tesco in autumn 2015. I thank my honourable friend for giving way, | :19:13. | :19:16. | |
and my honourable friend knows, knows the job losses will be felt | :19:17. | :19:20. | |
Cardiff and across South Wales and a constituent who contacted me saying | :19:21. | :19:24. | |
what they believe that Tesco has told the press is incorrect because | :19:25. | :19:32. | |
they have been axing areas of their company to bury. Should they be | :19:33. | :19:35. | |
questioned on Matt also? Thank you to my honourable friend. | :19:36. | :19:39. | |
Absolutely I agree with that and I will be addressing that in my speech | :19:40. | :19:43. | |
that they should be questioned on bad. In his first year in charge as | :19:44. | :19:52. | |
the group Chief Executive, Mr Lewis axed nearly 5000 head office staff | :19:53. | :20:01. | |
and as well as more than 4000 roles overseas and at the group 's banking | :20:02. | :20:06. | |
division. More than 2500 jobs were found with the closure of 48 | :20:07. | :20:11. | |
so-called underperforming Tesco Stores, and well in April, 3000 jobs | :20:12. | :20:15. | |
were put at risk when the chain could night shifts for shelf | :20:16. | :20:18. | |
stackers in some of its biggest supermarkets. | :20:19. | :20:25. | |
I'm grateful to my honourable friend for securing this debate and giving | :20:26. | :20:32. | |
way. On that specific point, in last year Tesco accounts, the chief | :20:33. | :20:37. | |
executive was paid ?4.15 million pay package of which 2.4 million was | :20:38. | :20:41. | |
bonus. Would my honourable friend agree with me that he could have | :20:42. | :20:44. | |
taken a little bit less than they could have kept a few more of those | :20:45. | :20:50. | |
jobs? Every little counts! Thank you to my honourable friend | :20:51. | :20:54. | |
and I think that is absolutely the case that there seems to be a | :20:55. | :21:00. | |
priority right station amongst the management in the company over the | :21:01. | :21:04. | |
hard-working workforce that we are seeing that are highly skilled, | :21:05. | :21:10. | |
highly motivated. I suspect that nearly every member of this house | :21:11. | :21:14. | |
has a Tesco store in their constituency. They are one of the | :21:15. | :21:18. | |
UK's biggest and most recognisable brands with a loyal customer base. I | :21:19. | :21:26. | |
will give way. On the subject of everyone having a | :21:27. | :21:30. | |
Tesco store in their constituency, I'd must can mend the lady for | :21:31. | :21:34. | |
bringing this to the house for consideration and I have to say to | :21:35. | :21:37. | |
the honourable lady agree there is something obscene about the loss of | :21:38. | :21:48. | |
1100 jobs, and behalf of Tesco constituents and Tesco workers in my | :21:49. | :21:53. | |
area, is that we should be reconsidering masking the sheet CEO | :21:54. | :21:57. | |
of Tesco reconsidering this decision immediately? | :21:58. | :22:03. | |
I thank him for his support on this issue. I suspect that if this is the | :22:04. | :22:14. | |
case that Tesco is the biggest and most recognisable brand of | :22:15. | :22:18. | |
supermarket and in his desire for a cheap in more savings, Mr Lewis | :22:19. | :22:22. | |
needs to understand he has an absolute responsibility to treat his | :22:23. | :22:26. | |
employees fairly and with respect. He hosed them a duty of care and he | :22:27. | :22:32. | |
should listen to what his staff as saying. In the days following the | :22:33. | :22:36. | |
announcement, I went to the customer Centre to meet the staff affected | :22:37. | :22:40. | |
along with my honourable friend, the member for Cardiff Central in my | :22:41. | :22:47. | |
local Assembly Member. They are totally devastated and feeling let | :22:48. | :22:51. | |
down by a company that some had dedicated their working lives still. | :22:52. | :22:57. | |
One staff member told me, we had felt like we were part of one big | :22:58. | :23:02. | |
family and took pride in coming to work. This feels like being dumped | :23:03. | :23:07. | |
back like an old pair of shoes after being promised a secure future stock | :23:08. | :23:12. | |
now we are feeling exploited and used. Some of the worst affected as | :23:13. | :23:18. | |
those households with multiple members who are losing their jobs. | :23:19. | :23:22. | |
Some families will be losing two, three, even for wages from their | :23:23. | :23:26. | |
budgets and one couple in their late 20s had their first child less than | :23:27. | :23:30. | |
a year ago, both set to lose their jobs. . | :23:31. | :23:40. | |
Following the coalition Government's having of the statutory consultation | :23:41. | :23:45. | |
period from 90 days to just 45 days, these employees whose whole lives | :23:46. | :23:50. | |
will be devastated by these redundancies have just 45 days to | :23:51. | :23:55. | |
try and find another job in a small area where there are going to be | :23:56. | :23:59. | |
over 1000 redundancies. Does my honourable friend agree with me that | :24:00. | :24:04. | |
45 days is far too short for employees to find alternative jobs | :24:05. | :24:09. | |
and for companies to look at straightforward alternative business | :24:10. | :24:14. | |
proposals in order to fulfil their duty to consult properly with staff | :24:15. | :24:18. | |
and look at real alternatives for keeping those jobs in place? | :24:19. | :24:24. | |
Thank you to my honourable friend. I agree with her on this which is | :24:25. | :24:29. | |
precisely the reason I have brought this debate to the house. One worker | :24:30. | :24:38. | |
in their own words actually told me, we're absolutely devastated, as my | :24:39. | :24:42. | |
fiance is currently on maternity leave with the birth of our baby | :24:43. | :24:46. | |
daughter. We have also planned to get married next year so this is, | :24:47. | :24:52. | |
the worst possible time for us in our lives and we are very worried | :24:53. | :24:56. | |
for our future. And at the start and the contacted me on Facebook. He | :24:57. | :25:00. | |
said, it has been stressful for a lot of those. Some more than others. | :25:01. | :25:06. | |
I have been made aware there are options to apply for a store roll or | :25:07. | :25:10. | |
move to the Tesco is stacked in Dundee. This is not an option, too | :25:11. | :25:15. | |
much of a drastic life changed and there are a few rows considering the | :25:16. | :25:19. | |
number of employees at our centre. The announcement also left me | :25:20. | :25:22. | |
wondering whether if I moved to another role in the business, would | :25:23. | :25:26. | |
I be any less vulnerable to more redundancies in the future? He went | :25:27. | :25:32. | |
on. A lot of my colleagues time that Tesco exceeds ten years are choosing | :25:33. | :25:36. | |
to stay till the end of their redundancy package as they will get | :25:37. | :25:39. | |
significantly larger amounts, but for many employees like myself who | :25:40. | :25:44. | |
I've been with Tesco for just over a three-year, we see no incentive in | :25:45. | :25:48. | |
staying. I do not feel valued as an employee any more and barely feel I | :25:49. | :25:52. | |
am part of the place now. The morale has dropped rapidly on my work | :25:53. | :25:54. | |
floor. Where is it felt like a small floor. Where is it felt like a small | :25:55. | :26:00. | |
community just over a year back, now feels very empty and makes me feel | :26:01. | :26:11. | |
quite down whenever I am in the environment. I used to love coming | :26:12. | :26:13. | |
to work, but now our skill longer and it just feels like it is getting | :26:14. | :26:15. | |
in the way of the hours I could be in the way of the hours I could be | :26:16. | :26:18. | |
using to find progression in life. These are just a few of the many | :26:19. | :26:20. | |
messages I have had from distraught members of staff affected. So what | :26:21. | :26:25. | |
is going to happen now? The Welsh Government economy secretary has | :26:26. | :26:31. | |
announced the announcement of a task force to find new employment | :26:32. | :26:35. | |
opportunities for the staff. This is a welcome development and it will | :26:36. | :26:39. | |
involve key partners to pool their knowledge and resources and know | :26:40. | :26:44. | |
that as many as 1100 people currently working at the centre are | :26:45. | :26:48. | |
provided with the very best support in seeking further employment. And | :26:49. | :26:52. | |
also in terms of looking after their welfare and emotional support. And | :26:53. | :26:57. | |
also following my question to the Leader of the House on the 22nd of | :26:58. | :27:04. | |
June, I would like to ask the Minister opposite whether she would | :27:05. | :27:08. | |
urge the Department for Work and Pensions to work with the Welsh | :27:09. | :27:10. | |
Government and dispatch its emergency cuts force to make sure | :27:11. | :27:16. | |
affected staff are fully supported. Asked about work goes on, along with | :27:17. | :27:22. | |
the trade union, I will be making the case for Tesco to rethink their | :27:23. | :27:26. | |
plans and for better engagement with their workforce. And if there are to | :27:27. | :27:33. | |
be any outsourcing of jobs, at the very least I would like an assurance | :27:34. | :27:38. | |
from Tesco and the management that they will go to companies based in | :27:39. | :27:45. | |
South Wales. She has been generous with her time. | :27:46. | :27:49. | |
When I met with my honourable friend with members of staff at Tesco. The | :27:50. | :27:56. | |
point about the outsourcing was raised that work had been outsourced | :27:57. | :27:59. | |
for the last 12 months and when people left Tesco house they were | :28:00. | :28:04. | |
not being replaced. Toshiba share my concern about the lack of | :28:05. | :28:07. | |
transparency about where this work is going, because the number of the | :28:08. | :28:10. | |
loss of jobs in the jobs being offered in Dundee do not add up. | :28:11. | :28:17. | |
Thank you to my honourable friend. I would agree with her that there has | :28:18. | :28:21. | |
been no transparency on this and that is what I would absolutely like | :28:22. | :28:24. | |
to see and I will call on the Minister to be asking. I also wanted | :28:25. | :28:31. | |
reiterate my deep disappointment in the way Tesco handled the situation | :28:32. | :28:35. | |
and I really struggle to understand its rationale in losing such a | :28:36. | :28:40. | |
highly dedicated workforce a company which supposedly values its workers | :28:41. | :28:45. | |
should not want to lose decades of experience and specialist skills | :28:46. | :28:46. | |
they have acquired. Will know Tesco, we've all shop | :28:47. | :28:54. | |
there, they have a loyal customer base in Cardiff and their staff | :28:55. | :28:59. | |
deserve more and better than this. I hope the Minister will join me in | :29:00. | :29:02. | |
condemning this behaviour and work with me and alongside the Welsh | :29:03. | :29:06. | |
government in making the case for a Tesco to rethink their plans and for | :29:07. | :29:11. | |
better engagement, more transparency with the workforce. Thank you Madam | :29:12. | :29:20. | |
Deputy Speaker. Firstly, I work in the honourable lady to her place for | :29:21. | :29:26. | |
Cordova Cardiff North and I congratulate her on this very | :29:27. | :29:31. | |
important debate this evening. These are indeed worrying times for | :29:32. | :29:37. | |
Tesco's Bath at the kind of customer engagement centre and their | :29:38. | :29:40. | |
families, especially where the families have more than one member | :29:41. | :29:44. | |
working at the centre. I'm sure all of our thoughts are with those | :29:45. | :29:48. | |
employees and their families and the wider community. At one o'clock on | :29:49. | :29:54. | |
the 21st of June, as the honourable lady said, the floor was announced | :29:55. | :30:00. | |
at two o'clock that the beef was a cancer two o'clock -- before it was | :30:01. | :30:09. | |
announced at two o'clock. They said that they would be closing the | :30:10. | :30:18. | |
centre in Cardiff at 2018 -- bite February 20 rating. I know the | :30:19. | :30:21. | |
honourable lady said how shocked she was to learn this and raise the | :30:22. | :30:28. | |
issue with the right honourable Leader of the House doing business | :30:29. | :30:31. | |
questions. A 45 day consultation began with the unions. The | :30:32. | :30:36. | |
government's focus is to support all those affected and get people back | :30:37. | :30:39. | |
into work as quickly as possible through Jobcentre plus. I can assure | :30:40. | :30:43. | |
her that we are working with the department of working pensions -- | :30:44. | :30:47. | |
work and pensions to ensure maximum service. I make the same point that | :30:48. | :30:56. | |
they make to the Minister, that I made my honourable friend. The | :30:57. | :31:02. | |
period of specialty -- statutory consultation even serve such | :31:03. | :31:08. | |
enormous job losses as has been halved down to 45 days. There are | :31:09. | :31:18. | |
the department and can put in 45 days is such a short time for such a | :31:19. | :31:25. | |
large number of jobs to be found in even in a city of Cardiff. You | :31:26. | :31:29. | |
cannot put into place 1200 good jobs in such a short period of time. Will | :31:30. | :31:34. | |
you please look it reviewing that howling to support jobs and | :31:35. | :31:37. | |
companies in supporting their own employees. I thank the honourable | :31:38. | :31:43. | |
lady for interventions and I did note the -- earlier comments. I do | :31:44. | :31:50. | |
think there is any prospect of reversing that decision. I accept | :31:51. | :31:55. | |
that it can prove difficult for people to find alternative | :31:56. | :32:00. | |
employment in a short-term, with only 45 period, but there is a lot | :32:01. | :32:04. | |
of support going on in Cardiff, not just from the Department for Work | :32:05. | :32:08. | |
and Pensions and ourselves, but also from the Welsh Assembly as well. | :32:09. | :32:12. | |
It's a buoyant economy and I hope very much that he will find | :32:13. | :32:17. | |
satisfactory employment -- we will find satisfactory implement in that | :32:18. | :32:24. | |
time frame. It isn't just the case that it easy to get another job and | :32:25. | :32:31. | |
even if you do, it doesn't alter the hurt that you feel at the rejection, | :32:32. | :32:37. | |
that redundancy was involved. If you never could -- if inevitable | :32:38. | :32:44. | |
consequence of competitive knock it -- market. Companies will need to | :32:45. | :32:51. | |
reorganise, merge, and expand and sometimes unfortunately contract in | :32:52. | :32:55. | |
response to the competitiveness. To ensure that businesses remain viable | :32:56. | :32:58. | |
and profitable, they do need the flexibility to respond to the | :32:59. | :33:02. | |
circumstances that they are facing as best they can. At the same time, | :33:03. | :33:06. | |
employees will want to know how these changes are likely to affect | :33:07. | :33:09. | |
them and what their options are for the future. It is vital therefore, | :33:10. | :33:14. | |
that there is effective consultation with employees about the potential | :33:15. | :33:21. | |
for collective redundancies. Very grateful to the Minister, is she | :33:22. | :33:25. | |
aware that this is the largest single number of job losses that has | :33:26. | :33:30. | |
been announced in Wales for a decade? My constituents, are around | :33:31. | :33:34. | |
100 of them who are affected by them will be the very disappointed to | :33:35. | :33:37. | |
hear you backed away the point made by my honourable friend about the | :33:38. | :33:44. | |
consultation period. Would you please reconsider talking to her | :33:45. | :33:47. | |
Cabinet colleagues about this? Dunn I would like to assure the | :33:48. | :33:55. | |
honourable lady that this is in fact the worst case in ten years does | :33:56. | :33:58. | |
point to the fact that the economy is buoyant in Wales. I visited that | :33:59. | :34:03. | |
part of the country myself just two months ago and was very impressed | :34:04. | :34:06. | |
with the dynamism I found in Cardiff and the surrounding area. So, I do | :34:07. | :34:11. | |
not share a pessimism about the opportunities for people. But I do | :34:12. | :34:15. | |
reiterate the point that I made earlier which is that I do | :34:16. | :34:18. | |
appreciate that it isn't just a civil case of getting another job | :34:19. | :34:24. | |
and all is well. Particularly when a whole community is affected in the | :34:25. | :34:29. | |
way this community has been. On the subject of the legislation, | :34:30. | :34:34. | |
collective redundancy legislation does strike a balance between the | :34:35. | :34:38. | |
needs of the business and those of the employees. It occurs when 20 or | :34:39. | :34:41. | |
more people are made redundant at one establishment within a 90 day | :34:42. | :34:47. | |
period, and in this situation, employers are under a statutory duty | :34:48. | :34:51. | |
to consult employees's representative about the proposed | :34:52. | :34:54. | |
representatives. The consultation must be with the employees trade | :34:55. | :34:59. | |
union representatives or other elected representatives where there | :35:00. | :35:04. | |
is not a recognised trade union in place. It must be completed before | :35:05. | :35:07. | |
any dismissal notices can take effect. It also must be undertaken | :35:08. | :35:12. | |
with a view to reaching and agreement, although sometimes, I | :35:13. | :35:14. | |
appreciate and agreement may not be possible. So, the consultation had | :35:15. | :35:21. | |
to include consideration of ways of avoiding the redundancies in the | :35:22. | :35:25. | |
first place, reducing the numbers to be made redundant, and importantly, | :35:26. | :35:29. | |
mitigating the effects of the dismissals. There are also a number | :35:30. | :35:36. | |
of obligations on employers, including a requirement to notify | :35:37. | :35:40. | |
the Secretary of State for business of the proposed collective | :35:41. | :35:44. | |
redundancies prior to the start of the statutory consultation period. | :35:45. | :35:52. | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, redundancy can be a subtle time, is usually a | :35:53. | :35:55. | |
stressful time for those affected and I would like to highlight the | :35:56. | :36:01. | |
service offered by the ACAS helpline that can provide help to individuals | :36:02. | :36:06. | |
on their situation. ACAS has also produced a guide for employers on | :36:07. | :36:09. | |
handling large-scale redundancies on such that we are debating tonight. I | :36:10. | :36:13. | |
would like to turn to the support available for employees who are made | :36:14. | :36:18. | |
redundant and, throughout the redundancy process, employers still | :36:19. | :36:23. | |
have obligations to their employees and should be thinking about the | :36:24. | :36:26. | |
help that they can offer at all times. If please with two years or | :36:27. | :36:35. | |
more services have the right to reasonable time off to look for a | :36:36. | :36:39. | |
new job or arrange training and the Department for Work and Pensions and | :36:40. | :36:41. | |
local Jobcentre plus have already been in touch offering their | :36:42. | :36:48. | |
support. I recommend employers should always contact Jobcentre | :36:49. | :36:55. | |
sport -- plus any circumstances to assure local support can be | :36:56. | :36:59. | |
delivered. All decisions about support are made locally and that is | :37:00. | :37:02. | |
because a decision based on a specific redundancy situation and | :37:03. | :37:07. | |
individuals's and Trent Birrell skills and experience and the | :37:08. | :37:12. | |
availability of jobs in the local area is far more likely to be the | :37:13. | :37:16. | |
right decision. With the Minister agree that this is not more | :37:17. | :37:25. | |
circumstances in which he agree that the DWP needs to dispatch -- which | :37:26. | :37:30. | |
he agreed at the DWP needs to dispatch a task force to help with | :37:31. | :37:36. | |
those seeking employment and work with the Welsh government on this? I | :37:37. | :37:44. | |
very much agree with what's behind the honourable lady's intervention | :37:45. | :37:52. | |
and my friend honourable friend is taking that matter forward. He has | :37:53. | :37:58. | |
met with the Chief Executive. The South Wales job centre plus will | :37:59. | :38:04. | |
deploy their retort options plan -- resource action plan that includes | :38:05. | :38:09. | |
careers Wales, the Welsh government, national employer partnership team, | :38:10. | :38:16. | |
the local authority, DW pensions and Tesco trade unions to deliver a | :38:17. | :38:20. | |
bespoke package of support which I think might be what the honourable | :38:21. | :38:25. | |
lady is after. A typical support provided by -- for individuals is | :38:26. | :38:29. | |
matching people to local job vacancies and or helping people to | :38:30. | :38:34. | |
instruct and improve their CDs. Where there is scope to do so this | :38:35. | :38:39. | |
support can be delivered on a group basis. For example by bringing | :38:40. | :38:43. | |
redundant workers and employers together at jobs fairs, as well as | :38:44. | :38:46. | |
groups flares and 121 on site. To provide support and information on | :38:47. | :38:53. | |
benefits, pensions, support from the DWP and careers units. Matching | :38:54. | :38:59. | |
career to the skills and requirements of Ndidi -- individuals | :39:00. | :39:04. | |
is key to the success of this programme. This has been successful | :39:05. | :39:10. | |
in many other situations. Tesco has assured the government that the | :39:11. | :39:15. | |
first priority is to support prior -- colleagues entire prior Cardiff. | :39:16. | :39:26. | |
Working with local agencies and other employers who may have | :39:27. | :39:33. | |
vacancies available. Very grateful to the Minister, one of the ways | :39:34. | :39:39. | |
that Tesco could assist that is not make them redundant six weeks before | :39:40. | :39:43. | |
they qualify for the annual bonus payment. With the Minister agreed me | :39:44. | :39:46. | |
that that sort of behaviour should be discouraged? I'm very sympathetic | :39:47. | :39:52. | |
to the point that the honourable lady has raised. That does seem to | :39:53. | :40:00. | |
me to add insult to injury. And my honourable friend, the Secretary of | :40:01. | :40:02. | |
State for Wales, has raised that very issue with the chief executive | :40:03. | :40:08. | |
at Tesco and venture he will raise it again thanks to the honourable | :40:09. | :40:11. | |
lady's intervention. The Welsh government has established a task | :40:12. | :40:17. | |
force already which is ready to support the Cardiff workers once the | :40:18. | :40:20. | |
outcome of the consultation is known. It is being led by Ken Street | :40:21. | :40:29. | |
and Fiona Jones, DWP's director services for Wales. They have also | :40:30. | :40:34. | |
confirmed that they will work closely with the last government on | :40:35. | :40:42. | |
their react scheme, a programme which provides training for people | :40:43. | :40:45. | |
in Wales who are facing redundancies. They will also be keen | :40:46. | :40:51. | |
to reach out to other employers who may have vacancies. At a significant | :40:52. | :40:54. | |
number of businesses of all the approach by Tesco and he was | :40:55. | :40:59. | |
government and the current focus has to be on the ongoing consultation | :41:00. | :41:02. | |
process, before any detailed discussions can progress without a | :41:03. | :41:09. | |
complete. At the moment Tesco cannot provide specific details on the | :41:10. | :41:12. | |
package available to staff, as this would be considered as part of the | :41:13. | :41:17. | |
ongoing 45 the conservation. Madam Deputy Speaker, in conclusion, I | :41:18. | :41:22. | |
will reiterate that retail is a vital sector for the UK economy and | :41:23. | :41:29. | |
we are committed to it, which is why, yes, as the all right | :41:30. | :41:36. | |
honourable lady called the debate... Will the Minister join the Leader of | :41:37. | :41:43. | |
the House in condemning the way in which Tesco made this announcement? | :41:44. | :41:50. | |
When I asked the Leader of the House after the announcement she was | :41:51. | :41:53. | |
appalled at the way in which it had been done. Will the Minister agree | :41:54. | :41:59. | |
to that? -- with that? I do think I would go as far as to condemn that, | :42:00. | :42:06. | |
because I do believe that Tesco made every effort to inform people on a | :42:07. | :42:12. | |
one to one basis. The recipe below way, if I'm wrong about that then I | :42:13. | :42:16. | |
apologise but the information I had is that they did make every effort. | :42:17. | :42:22. | |
Some people were away. They did contact them. It is quite appalling | :42:23. | :42:26. | |
that some people found out about this on social media. And the | :42:27. | :42:34. | |
situation lighting wise as lately thrown me off. Slightly friendly. I | :42:35. | :42:41. | |
note that retail is highly competitive and very buoyant will be | :42:42. | :42:50. | |
of little comfort to the input these of Cardiff engagement centre, but | :42:51. | :42:53. | |
every collective redundancy situation involves individuals and | :42:54. | :42:58. | |
their needs need to be managed very carefully indeed. It's vital that | :42:59. | :43:01. | |
individual workers receive information and support that they | :43:02. | :43:05. | |
need as and when they need it. I can assure them that the government and | :43:06. | :43:09. | |
the assembly in Wales stand absolutely ready to fight -- find | :43:10. | :43:15. | |
every possible support to the lady is constituent and those of the | :43:16. | :43:22. | |
Cardiff area. I wish them all very well indeed in their search for new | :43:23. | :43:26. | |
employment, if the redundancies do go ahead. | :43:27. | :43:31. | |
Subtitles will resume on Wednesday In Parliament at 23:00. | :43:32. | :43:41. |