Browse content similar to 16/11/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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conduct of what ministers say is not
a matter for me, nor is it a matter | 0:00:00 | 0:00:01 | |
for me whether the honourable
gentleman stays in his place. But, | 0:00:01 | 0:00:04 | |
let us move that very matter. For we
now come to the backbench motion on | 0:00:04 | 0:00:11 | |
the roll-out of Universal Credit. I
promise a Frank Field to move the | 0:00:11 | 0:00:19 | |
motion. Thank you. I rise on the
motion to present to this House the | 0:00:19 | 0:00:27 | |
select committee report on the
roll-out of Universal Credit, | 0:00:27 | 0:00:31 | |
although I think some of this would
not like to use roll-out of an | 0:00:31 | 0:00:37 | |
appropriate name for what is
actually happening to Universal | 0:00:37 | 0:00:40 | |
Credit in our constituencies. But I
want to give thanks to the backbench | 0:00:40 | 0:00:45 | |
committee that gave us the
opportunity to raise this really | 0:00:45 | 0:00:53 | |
important topic that is now
affecting a growing number of | 0:00:53 | 0:00:56 | |
constituents, my constituents. The
new horror began the Universal | 0:00:56 | 0:01:02 | |
Credit was fully rolled out
yesterday. I want to begin by | 0:01:02 | 0:01:10 | |
confessing my own inadequacies. I am
sure most of this, if not all of us, | 0:01:10 | 0:01:13 | |
when we get out to debate in this
great place, reflect on how we | 0:01:13 | 0:01:21 | |
simply do not have the language to
match up to the tasks that we are | 0:01:21 | 0:01:26 | |
trying to present through this
chamber to the nation on what is | 0:01:26 | 0:01:30 | |
happening. I have to say it is the
most important debate that I have | 0:01:30 | 0:01:36 | |
ever participated in in nearly 40
years as the member of Parliament | 0:01:36 | 0:01:44 | |
for Birkenhead and I have never more
felt the inadequacies of the | 0:01:44 | 0:01:53 | |
language I have to try and tell the
House what horror is happening now | 0:01:53 | 0:01:57 | |
to a growing number of my
constituents. And what is called | 0:01:57 | 0:02:03 | |
this welfare reform programme. I
will speak briefly, I promise you if | 0:02:03 | 0:02:09 | |
I don't get lots of like last
Tuesday. | 0:02:09 | 0:02:14 | |
LAUGHTER
I want to do it briefly around five | 0:02:14 | 0:02:24 | |
themes, predict things. One is we
already can report -- brief scenes. | 0:02:24 | 0:02:37 | |
Report on the role law of credit of
Universal Credit without its full | 0:02:37 | 0:02:40 | |
roll-out. Secondly, the chaos that
now presents itself in my | 0:02:40 | 0:02:44 | |
constituency as organised chaos.
Secondly I really want to look at | 0:02:44 | 0:02:51 | |
what is the national impact of what
is going to be a growing crash and | 0:02:51 | 0:02:58 | |
smash of many decent and honourable
people's lives. Fourthly, the one | 0:02:58 | 0:03:05 | |
reform that all of this on the
select committee came to, not the | 0:03:05 | 0:03:09 | |
only one we present, but we thought
with the evidence we have, it is not | 0:03:09 | 0:03:13 | |
what we think or feel, that the
biggest change that the Government | 0:03:13 | 0:03:18 | |
could make is which is in from six
weeks to four weeks. Then I might | 0:03:18 | 0:03:24 | |
touch on the long-term reforms. When
I saw the minister at the copy | 0:03:24 | 0:03:31 | |
machine yesterday and he kindly told
me she would be replying, I said, | 0:03:31 | 0:03:35 | |
you know, that I had asked for times
the question already that the | 0:03:35 | 0:03:43 | |
Secretary of State, who I am sorry
is not here today, because I'm sure | 0:03:43 | 0:03:48 | |
there is no such more important task
for him. Seriously, on he has gone | 0:03:48 | 0:03:56 | |
about his career in this House, this
is an issue of such national | 0:03:56 | 0:04:01 | |
importance, for the Secretary of
State not to be here in itself says | 0:04:01 | 0:04:04 | |
something pretty big. Five times I
have asked him, he tells me, go back | 0:04:04 | 0:04:09 | |
home and say it is all OK, don't
worry it will be rolled out fine. | 0:04:09 | 0:04:16 | |
The food bank says we need 15 tonnes
more food. Who are we to believe? | 0:04:16 | 0:04:22 | |
Might I just therefore tell the
House to begin with, one case which | 0:04:22 | 0:04:27 | |
began some time ago, they turned to
their MP for help yesterday, it is | 0:04:27 | 0:04:40 | |
an historic case. It was of a
gentleman that had waited, waited | 0:04:40 | 0:04:43 | |
and waited for an operation at our
local hospital. That operation was | 0:04:43 | 0:04:50 | |
taking place when he was told to
turn up for an interview at a job | 0:04:50 | 0:04:55 | |
Centre plus. He was sanctioned. A
friend befriending him reported in | 0:04:55 | 0:05:05 | |
yesterday that this constituent of
mine is now homeless and while being | 0:05:05 | 0:05:12 | |
homeless, struggling to recover from
that surgery. So, let me now turn to | 0:05:12 | 0:05:22 | |
that, the five examples of the
horrors that are happening to | 0:05:22 | 0:05:26 | |
Birkenhead under the existing
system. Simplified and manageable we | 0:05:26 | 0:05:36 | |
were told. I don't want to speak
long, we can give yards of cases for | 0:05:36 | 0:05:41 | |
what is actually happening to our
constituents. Constituent one let's | 0:05:41 | 0:05:45 | |
call them. They made three
applications online. When they | 0:05:45 | 0:05:51 | |
finally got through they were told,
no application had been received. | 0:05:51 | 0:05:56 | |
Six weeks from the third application
being made where they then paid. Six | 0:05:56 | 0:06:04 | |
weeks from the third application.
They had three children to feed. | 0:06:04 | 0:06:08 | |
They were hungry. Example two. That
my constituent had twice attempted | 0:06:08 | 0:06:18 | |
to apply online. Twice the
application had been lost. A further | 0:06:18 | 0:06:22 | |
eight weeks they waited before
money. They were hungry. Constituent | 0:06:22 | 0:06:34 | |
three that had a four-year-old
daughter who had waited two months | 0:06:34 | 0:06:38 | |
for Universal Credit to be
processed. Tried the hotline six | 0:06:38 | 0:06:46 | |
times, but a new system was in place
and it took them several days to | 0:06:46 | 0:06:49 | |
phone her back. She was then told,
wow, no claim could be found. A | 0:06:49 | 0:06:55 | |
payment date was pushed back a
further 11 days. My constituent and | 0:06:55 | 0:07:02 | |
her daughter went hungry. I
willingly give way. Very gracious of | 0:07:02 | 0:07:11 | |
him to give way. These are
heartbreaking and unacceptable | 0:07:11 | 0:07:14 | |
accounts. But could he help me in
this respect, when I met with the | 0:07:14 | 0:07:20 | |
citizens advice bureau, we have
Universal Credit rolled out in July, | 0:07:20 | 0:07:25 | |
now they are making arrangements
with all relevant authorities, so | 0:07:25 | 0:07:28 | |
that these very examples do not
exist. My question to the right | 0:07:28 | 0:07:32 | |
honourable gentleman, did these
constituents come to him at the end | 0:07:32 | 0:07:36 | |
of the ghastly process or earlier
on, if they had come early on, we as | 0:07:36 | 0:07:42 | |
MPs all have exactly the access to
speed it up, would he agree that he | 0:07:42 | 0:07:47 | |
should be doing this now before it
comes out in our areas? I could not | 0:07:47 | 0:07:53 | |
agree more, though being here a
little longer than the right | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
honourable lady, I never thought as
an MP that I would be speaking like | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
this about this, with my job adapted
in this way. Of course, we have had | 0:08:01 | 0:08:07 | |
summits, we are continuing to have
summits, bringing all the people | 0:08:07 | 0:08:11 | |
together, including Jobcentre plus,
to try to prevent this happening, | 0:08:11 | 0:08:16 | |
even despite those efforts, these
are the cases of horror that are | 0:08:16 | 0:08:21 | |
resulting and that I am presenting
to the house. Constituent four | 0:08:21 | 0:08:27 | |
waited 12 months for Universal
Credit, the Secretary of State, | 0:08:27 | 0:08:32 | |
bless him, not here today, admitted
some error had occurred, my | 0:08:32 | 0:08:37 | |
constituent is sinking in debt,
despite the role of CAB, MPs, food | 0:08:37 | 0:08:46 | |
banks, welfare rights advisers are
in, yes. Constituent five, migrated | 0:08:46 | 0:08:55 | |
to Universal Credit from housing
benefit, housing benefit stopped | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
immediately, they waited seven weeks
for Universal Credit, when it came, | 0:08:58 | 0:09:02 | |
there was no housing component.
Again, this constituent risks being | 0:09:02 | 0:09:11 | |
a evicted. Incredibly powerful case.
Even if the system worked perfect, I | 0:09:11 | 0:09:23 | |
have been contacted by constituent
in Walthamstow desperately terrified | 0:09:23 | 0:09:30 | |
by their rent arrears, they know
that any delay in getting amendments | 0:09:30 | 0:09:39 | |
they will hit that thousand pounds
mark, even when the system works | 0:09:39 | 0:09:44 | |
personally, these inherent delays
push us back about them into debt | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
which will cost us all more. We will
come onto touching briefly about the | 0:09:48 | 0:09:55 | |
reforms that we want and that we
will push for and review in the | 0:09:55 | 0:09:58 | |
select committee but it must be
based on evidence. The evidence is | 0:09:58 | 0:10:02 | |
melting. I'm a dreamy grateful in
giving way again, the Times has | 0:10:02 | 0:10:10 | |
reported today that property
companies are doing pre-emptive | 0:10:10 | 0:10:14 | |
evictions. -- I'm very grateful for
the honourable member giving way. | 0:10:14 | 0:10:20 | |
The Times is reporting this today,
it is happening in the front line, | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
pre-emptive evictions for those on
Universal Credit. What impact will | 0:10:24 | 0:10:29 | |
this have on already vulnerable
claimants of Universal Credit? | 0:10:29 | 0:10:32 | |
Shameful! As my honourable friend...
Four East London... And for Hove, on | 0:10:32 | 0:10:43 | |
the coast... Both of these
statements are true and I am sure | 0:10:43 | 0:10:49 | |
they will catch you. Can I touch on
the support, every Tom Dick and | 0:10:49 | 0:11:02 | |
Harry organisation seems to be
bedded in the system, Jobcentre | 0:11:02 | 0:11:09 | |
officials say even when the system
is up and running, as in Birkenhead, | 0:11:09 | 0:11:13 | |
claims are closed down in error, and
it takes them several months to | 0:11:13 | 0:11:18 | |
rebuild that claim. There is no
money during that... I want | 0:11:18 | 0:11:27 | |
everybody to get in, but I am so
anxious to get through this, can I | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
move on. Despite my real affection
for people who I know have fought | 0:11:30 | 0:11:36 | |
the battle hard on this, I do really
wish to pursue. I have got four | 0:11:36 | 0:11:44 | |
constituents who have had claims
closed down, only to imaginable | 0:11:44 | 0:11:52 | |
consequences of what that has meant
for their lives. One of their | 0:11:52 | 0:11:56 | |
landlords has said, I don't want to
evict the tenant, however, I might | 0:11:56 | 0:12:01 | |
be left with no choice. That's
tenant in question has said, I am | 0:12:01 | 0:12:08 | |
not only behind with my rent, with
my council tax, all I have got to | 0:12:08 | 0:12:13 | |
live off is on child benefit, and
the school has been so worried about | 0:12:13 | 0:12:18 | |
the welfare of my son that my sister
offered to take the sun into her | 0:12:18 | 0:12:26 | |
household so that the child was not
taken into care. I might be able to | 0:12:26 | 0:12:33 | |
later on, but I want everyone to
have their chance to speak if I may. | 0:12:33 | 0:12:44 | |
One example of a lad who asked huge
difficulty took a part-time job, the | 0:12:50 | 0:12:54 | |
pride of the job, walking out in the
morning knowing at the end of the | 0:12:54 | 0:12:59 | |
week you were going to bring home a
wage packet, at the end of the week, | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
not for weeks, not six weeks, the
end of the week, a wage packet. The | 0:13:03 | 0:13:10 | |
transformation in him, the Jobcentre
decided that he was not trying hard | 0:13:10 | 0:13:13 | |
enough to get a job. So they
sanctioned him, took his money away, | 0:13:13 | 0:13:20 | |
he then could not exist on the money
from his job, he now has no money. | 0:13:20 | 0:13:29 | |
He is well on his way to
destitution. What then, as my third | 0:13:29 | 0:13:35 | |
theme, is the national impact of
this slow motion crash. For us. But | 0:13:35 | 0:13:45 | |
a high-speed crash for constituents,
what has the trust will trust told | 0:13:45 | 0:13:50 | |
us about the impact from around the
country of this roll-out of | 0:13:50 | 0:13:53 | |
Universal Credit? We must remember,
Castle trust is the trade union of | 0:13:53 | 0:14:03 | |
only half of our food banks, so to
speak, thereof port, that they need | 0:14:03 | 0:14:11 | |
1500 additional tonnes of food for
the coming year. That they will need | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
an additional 2000 tonnes of food to
take on the consequences now of | 0:14:16 | 0:14:23 | |
Universal Credit. In Birkenhead, as
I said, 15 tonnes of food will be | 0:14:23 | 0:14:30 | |
needed in the coming year. So we
know that this slow crash has | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
evolved, coming out weeks, we knew
it was going to happen, and now, it | 0:14:35 | 0:14:42 | |
has actually begun in Birkenhead
yesterday. That, really, is why the | 0:14:42 | 0:14:46 | |
select committee, in one mind, on
the evidence that it received, said | 0:14:46 | 0:14:52 | |
that the most important thing that
the government could do, well there | 0:14:52 | 0:14:57 | |
are many things to do, but there was
one thing that stood out from our | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
evidence, we wanted them to do, as
quickly as possible, that was to | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
reduce the weight from six weeks
maximum 24 weeks maximum. Indeed, | 0:15:06 | 0:15:13 | |
the first 133 submissions to the
select committee told us that the | 0:15:13 | 0:15:18 | |
six weeks wait is the main force
pushing people to know food, risking | 0:15:18 | 0:15:28 | |
everything, and on the brink of
destitution. And it is not a | 0:15:28 | 0:15:32 | |
surprise, is it, Minister, when your
data from your old department, the | 0:15:32 | 0:15:37 | |
Treasury, tells us that more than
half of low and middle income | 0:15:37 | 0:15:44 | |
families have no savings at all to
fall back on. Two thirds of us have | 0:15:44 | 0:15:50 | |
less than a month is savings to tide
us over in a crisis. The idea that | 0:15:50 | 0:16:00 | |
families can wait for six weeks...!
The most vulnerable people that we | 0:16:00 | 0:16:05 | |
have the honour to represent in this
house... That idea is... Well, in | 0:16:05 | 0:16:12 | |
the cold light of day, you wonder
how any decent set of people... The | 0:16:12 | 0:16:18 | |
great architect of this reform is
not now in this place, he was | 0:16:18 | 0:16:23 | |
earlier on... The member for
Chingford... The idea he ever wanted | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
this result for this reform, I hope
he welcome back and tell us, why, | 0:16:26 | 0:16:32 | |
when he failed to fend off cuts from
the previous Chancellor of the | 0:16:32 | 0:16:38 | |
Exchequer, why he could not ever,
ever, ever have envisaged that this | 0:16:38 | 0:16:42 | |
is where a reform of noble intent
should actually end, in this set of | 0:16:42 | 0:16:53 | |
personal nightmares for
constituents. Let me begin to | 0:16:53 | 0:16:55 | |
conclude, if I may, there are also
of course but we do not have the | 0:16:55 | 0:16:59 | |
evidence on the select committee,
for these, but we may get the | 0:16:59 | 0:17:03 | |
evidence, to persuade us all, to
have a united report, but for me, it | 0:17:03 | 0:17:09 | |
seems to be five obvious reforms
that we now need to build on to | 0:17:09 | 0:17:15 | |
Universal Credit, as well as that
forward weight. First of all, if | 0:17:15 | 0:17:22 | |
Scotland can have two weekly
payments, why can't England have | 0:17:22 | 0:17:28 | |
two-weekly payments? Northern
Ireland will get payments every two | 0:17:28 | 0:17:32 | |
weeks, why can't Wales get payments
every two weeks. I thank Scotland | 0:17:32 | 0:17:38 | |
for negotiating itself contracted
agreement, to show that what was | 0:17:38 | 0:17:42 | |
thought to be " impossible" is only
possible, once you pressure is | 0:17:42 | 0:17:47 | |
applied. You'd thanks to them. But
we also want rents paid directly, | 0:17:47 | 0:17:54 | |
people wish that. Thirdly, we want
the DWP automatically to tell local | 0:17:54 | 0:18:02 | |
authorities and housing associations
that their tenants will be pushed | 0:18:02 | 0:18:06 | |
into debt... That is not our job, it
is not the CAD's job, it is the | 0:18:06 | 0:18:13 | |
department's job to be doing that,
we know that under the current | 0:18:13 | 0:18:16 | |
system, babies and toddlers are
going without healthy vouchers, and | 0:18:16 | 0:18:22 | |
children without free school meals
because the data that was separately | 0:18:22 | 0:18:27 | |
held but is now held in Universal
Credit, which could be given to | 0:18:27 | 0:18:32 | |
local authorities, is not. Could
that terrible nonsense please come | 0:18:32 | 0:18:37 | |
to an end. And then lastly, I had a
fight, and members with me had a | 0:18:37 | 0:18:47 | |
fight, when the government took off
the statute book that the duty of | 0:18:47 | 0:18:54 | |
the Secretary of State and the DWP
was to promote the welfare of | 0:18:54 | 0:18:56 | |
claimants. They said it was not
necessary, tidying up the statute | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
book... We are all in favour... Who
could possibly be against promoting | 0:19:01 | 0:19:08 | |
the welfare of claimants, and might
argue was that if it is so | 0:19:08 | 0:19:12 | |
unnecessary, let's leave it on, in
case. The current sanctions policy | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
could never, ever, ever have worked,
without, if that power on the | 0:19:17 | 0:19:25 | |
Secretary of State to be concerned
with the welfare of claimants had | 0:19:25 | 0:19:27 | |
existed. Because we know the
Secretary of State delegates to | 0:19:27 | 0:19:33 | |
every person working in the DWP
offices, as to carry out that | 0:19:33 | 0:19:38 | |
discretion on behalf of the
Secretary of State. As you know, I | 0:19:38 | 0:19:43 | |
was as tough as old boots about
needing sanctions, people had to | 0:19:43 | 0:19:49 | |
actually apply by the rules. But the
idea that we have sanctions without | 0:19:49 | 0:19:55 | |
anybody in the office being able to
exercise discretion is an appalling | 0:19:55 | 0:20:00 | |
combination. And to be presented as
an officer, with some be you can | 0:20:00 | 0:20:07 | |
ring the hospital and find I was
actually on the operating table when | 0:20:07 | 0:20:12 | |
you actually wanted me here for an
interview. Please don't sanction | 0:20:12 | 0:20:19 | |
me... And the sanction is
automatically applied, because there | 0:20:19 | 0:20:22 | |
is no discretion... That should end.
Therefore, a clique, to the | 0:20:22 | 0:20:28 | |
unbelievably decent minister, who is
going to reply. There is mutterings, | 0:20:28 | 0:20:35 | |
he says he is appalled, doesn't need
to happen, why it will not happen... | 0:20:35 | 0:20:39 | |
On the record, I want him on the
record when he comes to reply, and I | 0:20:39 | 0:20:43 | |
will end on this, this is the fifth
time of asking the Treasury bench. | 0:20:43 | 0:20:48 | |
The government tells me that the
roll-out of Universal Credit in | 0:20:48 | 0:20:54 | |
Birkenhead is going hunky-dory...
That all the things that I have | 0:20:54 | 0:20:59 | |
tried to represent, all the please
about the food bank, about can we | 0:20:59 | 0:21:04 | |
raise 15 tonnes more food, that that
is scaremongering... Will he now | 0:21:04 | 0:21:10 | |
answer the question, when he comes
to reply, are they still as | 0:21:10 | 0:21:15 | |
confident as they were when I first
asked the question, months away from | 0:21:15 | 0:21:21 | |
the universal roll-out, or do I go
home and roll up my sleeves am a | 0:21:21 | 0:21:27 | |
with those, with the food bank,
trying to raise 15 tonnes more food, | 0:21:27 | 0:21:32 | |
to prevent families being engulfed
in hunger this Christmas and beyond | 0:21:32 | 0:21:38 | |
of undue proportion? It is a
national scandal, which the | 0:21:38 | 0:21:44 | |
government could stop, will it,
please? The question is, as on the | 0:21:44 | 0:21:52 | |
order paper, I am delighted to call,
to make his maiden speech... | 0:21:52 | 0:22:06 | |
Mr David Dukitt. It is my maiden
speech, I have just started engaging | 0:22:13 | 0:22:19 | |
with my local citizens advice and
job centres, on this subject, in | 0:22:19 | 0:22:25 | |
preparation for roll-out in my
constituency, in much the same way | 0:22:25 | 0:22:28 | |
as my right honourable friend.
Madame Deputy Speaker, I am proud | 0:22:28 | 0:22:35 | |
and honoured to have been elected to
represent the people here in this | 0:22:35 | 0:22:41 | |
place, I have already spoken on the
beauty of their own Scottish | 0:22:41 | 0:22:46 | |
constituencies. -- David Duguid.
Being the last Scottish Conservative | 0:22:46 | 0:22:50 | |
to deliver my maiden speech, I can
now save definitively that Banff and | 0:22:50 | 0:22:56 | |
Buchan is the most beautiful! | 0:22:56 | 0:22:58 | |
I would like to take this
opportunity to pay tribute to my | 0:23:03 | 0:23:06 | |
predecessor. She worked hard for her
constituents as well as in this | 0:23:06 | 0:23:12 | |
Parliament. Earlier this year she
became the first SNP member to... | 0:23:12 | 0:23:21 | |
Enhanced to protect victims of
domestic abuse. I'm sure the whole | 0:23:21 | 0:23:24 | |
house will thank her for her
contribution and wish you well in | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
the future. However, it was clear to
me and my colleagues from the | 0:23:28 | 0:23:34 | |
north-east of Scotland, from the
election results in June, that the | 0:23:34 | 0:23:38 | |
people of north-east Scotland do not
want another independence | 0:23:38 | 0:23:42 | |
referendum. On top of that,
regardless of how they voted in the | 0:23:42 | 0:23:46 | |
EU referendum, and for information
my own constituency did vote to | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
leave the EU. The electorate made it
clear that they wanted the | 0:23:51 | 0:23:56 | |
Government to get on and deliver
Brexit. I delivered all I could in | 0:23:56 | 0:24:02 | |
supporting and influencing
Government to get the best deal for | 0:24:02 | 0:24:05 | |
Scotland. Leaving the EU presents
great opportunities for the two main | 0:24:05 | 0:24:09 | |
industries that define my
constituencies, fishing and farming. | 0:24:09 | 0:24:14 | |
As we leave the EU we will leave the
common fisheries policy, and as we | 0:24:14 | 0:24:19 | |
do we will regain complete control
to our fishing waters out to 200 | 0:24:19 | 0:24:24 | |
nautical miles. We have two of the
largest fishing points in Europe. | 0:24:24 | 0:24:34 | |
Peterhead is supplying the north sea
oil and gas as well as offshore wind | 0:24:34 | 0:24:43 | |
projects. Food processing is in my
constituency with exports across | 0:24:43 | 0:24:46 | |
Europe and beyond including America
and a stranger. The other key | 0:24:46 | 0:24:52 | |
industry in my constituency is
agriculture. And I am bound to say | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
that we have some of the best
grazing land available which | 0:24:56 | 0:25:01 | |
produces the best Scotch beef and
lamb. The topic of food and in in | 0:25:01 | 0:25:07 | |
Scotland cannot pass without
mentioning Scotch Whisky. Although | 0:25:07 | 0:25:11 | |
there are relatively few
distilleries located in my | 0:25:11 | 0:25:14 | |
constituency, a lot of mock barley
is growing there. Many of my | 0:25:14 | 0:25:18 | |
constituents and those across the
north-east of Scotland are employed, | 0:25:18 | 0:25:21 | |
as I was, for 25 years in the oil
and gas industry. Workers from | 0:25:21 | 0:25:26 | |
across Scotland community and Dean
or offshore. Many work in related | 0:25:26 | 0:25:33 | |
manufacturing engineering and
related services not just in | 0:25:33 | 0:25:36 | |
Aberdeen. Many of these businesses
were started by local entrepreneurs | 0:25:36 | 0:25:41 | |
and I still family-owned and grown
into the biggest employers in the | 0:25:41 | 0:25:43 | |
area. Some have won UK national
awards for the focus on training in | 0:25:43 | 0:25:50 | |
young people. I therefore find it
incredible that a constituency that | 0:25:50 | 0:25:53 | |
is home to so many entrepreneurs,
small and medium businesses, that | 0:25:53 | 0:25:58 | |
contributes greatly to the food,
drink and energy sectors has one of | 0:25:58 | 0:26:03 | |
the slowest average broadband speeds
in the country. The average download | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
speed of 6 megabits per second can
only be drained by many of my | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
constituents. They will get one or
two if they get any at all. This | 0:26:11 | 0:26:18 | |
lack of connectivity hampers
business growth, discourages people | 0:26:18 | 0:26:22 | |
from coming to live in the area and
I have made it one of my top | 0:26:22 | 0:26:26 | |
priorities to pressure governments
on both sides of the border to | 0:26:26 | 0:26:30 | |
deliver an acceptable minimum
broadband performance across rule | 0:26:30 | 0:26:39 | |
areas not just towns and cities. But
as these become more and more the | 0:26:39 | 0:26:45 | |
norm, including applications to
Universal Credit, many people still | 0:26:45 | 0:26:51 | |
do not have access to broadband,
this is not acceptable. Broadband is | 0:26:51 | 0:26:56 | |
rapidly becoming an essential
service for every business, school, | 0:26:56 | 0:26:59 | |
hospital and household, no matter
where they are located. Another | 0:26:59 | 0:27:08 | |
strong industry is tourism. Our
coast across the north-east of | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
Scotland is unlike any other in the
British Isles. Rugged cliffs home to | 0:27:11 | 0:27:21 | |
birdlife including an important
gannet colony. Our shoreline is | 0:27:21 | 0:27:31 | |
regularly visited by porpoises,
dolphins and occasionally come back | 0:27:31 | 0:27:35 | |
or killer whale. -- humpback. In
summary, my constituency is a great | 0:27:35 | 0:27:46 | |
place to live, however some of the
standard of some public services, | 0:27:46 | 0:27:51 | |
education and health, have taken a
kid back in recent years under an | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
S&P Government obsessed with
pursuing independence at any cost. | 0:27:56 | 0:28:04 | |
Shops lying empty, particularly in
coastal areas. In conclusion, like | 0:28:04 | 0:28:14 | |
the members on the benches opposite,
I welcome the opportunity to have | 0:28:14 | 0:28:18 | |
strong voices, Scottish voices, in
this House. With that said, I am | 0:28:18 | 0:28:22 | |
especially glad to be one of the 12
additional Scottish Conservative | 0:28:22 | 0:28:26 | |
voices on this site. Thank you. It
would be obvious to the House that a | 0:28:26 | 0:28:35 | |
great many people want to speak and
we have limited time. So I have to | 0:28:35 | 0:28:40 | |
have an immediate time limit of six
minutes. Can I first of all | 0:28:40 | 0:28:45 | |
congratulate the honourable member
on what was a really powerful maiden | 0:28:45 | 0:28:52 | |
speech. He makes a really good case
for getting up to visit, I will be | 0:28:52 | 0:29:02 | |
booking a trip as soon as possible
to taste the Whisky, see the | 0:29:02 | 0:29:04 | |
wildlife that he is talking about,
he is a wonderful advocate for the | 0:29:04 | 0:29:08 | |
area. If I might also say, that the
honourable gentleman looked | 0:29:08 | 0:29:13 | |
incredibly confident and relaxed
giving a speech. I think back to how | 0:29:13 | 0:29:17 | |
nervous I felt in my maiden speech,
and you did yours like an old pro. I | 0:29:17 | 0:29:21 | |
think we can look forward...
Seasoned might be a better term. We | 0:29:21 | 0:29:29 | |
can look forward to many more
excellent contributions and I wish | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
him very well in his career in this
House. I would also like to thank my | 0:29:32 | 0:29:37 | |
honourable friend the member for
Birkenhead for raising this very | 0:29:37 | 0:29:42 | |
important issue in the House today.
Croydon was one of the first borough | 0:29:42 | 0:29:47 | |
is where Universal Credit has been
rolled out so we can see what an | 0:29:47 | 0:29:55 | |
utter disaster it has become. I have
a long and growing stream of people | 0:29:55 | 0:29:59 | |
coming into my office, many of them
close to tears, because Universal | 0:29:59 | 0:30:03 | |
Credit has forced them into debt,
made it harder for them to stay in | 0:30:03 | 0:30:08 | |
work, or left many of them facing
eviction for rent arrears. Our local | 0:30:08 | 0:30:12 | |
council has had to spend £3 million
so far to stop people being evicted | 0:30:12 | 0:30:18 | |
because of late payments for rent.
Local food banks are running out of | 0:30:18 | 0:30:22 | |
food because of the vast increase of
people who if you are going hungry | 0:30:22 | 0:30:27 | |
because of what the Government
scheme has done to them. Over 1000 | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
tenants in Croydon now have rent
arrears of over three months and are | 0:30:31 | 0:30:35 | |
at risk of losing their home because
of the failures of Universal Credit. | 0:30:35 | 0:30:42 | |
Do they agree with me that one of
the problems, not the only one, is | 0:30:42 | 0:30:47 | |
problems with the IT of Universal
Credit isn't yet working properly? I | 0:30:47 | 0:30:53 | |
absolutely agree. He races at very
important point. I cannot for the | 0:30:53 | 0:30:59 | |
life of me understand why the
Government insists on ploughing | 0:30:59 | 0:31:01 | |
ahead when it is quite clear that
the IT system is not fit for | 0:31:01 | 0:31:05 | |
purpose. They should pause it, fix
it and before they inflict this | 0:31:05 | 0:31:09 | |
damage on any more people. According
to my own council figures, a tenant | 0:31:09 | 0:31:13 | |
on housing benefit the previous
legacy system, had an account that | 0:31:13 | 0:31:21 | |
was £42 incredible in balance. Under
Universal Credit for people moving | 0:31:21 | 0:31:25 | |
to that system, the average tenant
has a balance £722 in arrears. This | 0:31:25 | 0:31:32 | |
is supposed to be a system that is
helping though income families, but | 0:31:32 | 0:31:36 | |
instead it is forcing them into debt
and forcing them out of their homes. | 0:31:36 | 0:31:40 | |
I would like to share just ate few
short examples from my... I'm sure | 0:31:40 | 0:31:49 | |
we will have many more. I had one
constituent come to me does in £400 | 0:31:49 | 0:31:54 | |
in debt and two months rent of years
because of errors in Universal | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
Credit and she had no money left to
buy food for her family or to heed | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
her home. Another was a mother of
five children who was left waiting | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
nine weeks for her payment. She
works part time and is desperate to | 0:32:05 | 0:32:10 | |
keep working. She wants to do
exactly what the Government tells us | 0:32:10 | 0:32:13 | |
she should be doing but the new
system as let her down and pushed | 0:32:13 | 0:32:17 | |
into debt. A pregnant mother with
two young children came to see me. | 0:32:17 | 0:32:21 | |
She was not eating properly because
of debt, posing a serious risk, not | 0:32:21 | 0:32:26 | |
just her but her unborn child. She
had no option but to take out | 0:32:26 | 0:32:30 | |
several high interest payday loans
and has been threatened with | 0:32:30 | 0:32:34 | |
eviction because of under payments.
It is outrageous to lead anyone in | 0:32:34 | 0:32:40 | |
those circumstances, leave alone a
pregnant woman. I would like to | 0:32:40 | 0:32:44 | |
raise a particular problem that is
affecting severely disabled people. | 0:32:44 | 0:32:47 | |
Universal Credit does not include a
severe disability premium, despite | 0:32:47 | 0:32:52 | |
the work of the DWP raising concerns
about precisely that earlier this | 0:32:52 | 0:32:58 | |
year, but the Government has done
absolutely nothing. Under the | 0:32:58 | 0:33:02 | |
current system, a person with severe
disabilities and receiving implement | 0:33:02 | 0:33:07 | |
support allowance and a premium
would get £172 a week. Andy | 0:33:07 | 0:33:11 | |
Universal Credit that is cut to £146
a week. I became aware of this | 0:33:11 | 0:33:17 | |
because of the citizens advice
bureau who referred to meet a | 0:33:17 | 0:33:20 | |
claimant with severe mental health
who moved on to Universal Credit | 0:33:20 | 0:33:23 | |
when he became liable for housing
costs. The effect was that he lost | 0:33:23 | 0:33:27 | |
over £100 for benefits that covered
his living expenses with no | 0:33:27 | 0:33:33 | |
additional protection because he had
a change of circumstances. When you | 0:33:33 | 0:33:37 | |
have so little income, that scale of
financial loss is utterly | 0:33:37 | 0:33:40 | |
devastating. Now, Universal Credit
is a unmitigated disaster for | 0:33:40 | 0:33:48 | |
hundreds of the most vulnerable
people living in Croydon. If this is | 0:33:48 | 0:33:57 | |
not fixed in those hundreds will
become thousands. People cannot | 0:33:57 | 0:34:01 | |
cope. What kind of system is that
penalises the poor and forces people | 0:34:01 | 0:34:06 | |
out of jobs and onto benefits and
into food banks? The minister here | 0:34:06 | 0:34:12 | |
today must do what the House has
instructed them to do when we voted | 0:34:12 | 0:34:15 | |
on it recently. They must pause and
fix the system before it devastate | 0:34:15 | 0:34:20 | |
any more lives. It is a pleasure to
contribute and to speak on this | 0:34:20 | 0:34:31 | |
important matter. In particular I
would like to pay tribute to my | 0:34:31 | 0:34:36 | |
honourable friend, and I agree with
the honourable member from Croydon. | 0:34:36 | 0:34:42 | |
He gave a confident speech of a
young professional, a generous | 0:34:42 | 0:34:48 | |
tribute to his predecessor and in
particular I appreciated his | 0:34:48 | 0:34:51 | |
comments on broadband. I look
forward to campaigning alongside him | 0:34:51 | 0:34:55 | |
to ensure that all our rural areas
have adequate access to broadband. I | 0:34:55 | 0:35:00 | |
look forward to is further
contributions in this place. I | 0:35:00 | 0:35:05 | |
strongly support Universal Credit
and I am pleased that this debate is | 0:35:05 | 0:35:08 | |
the third or fourth that we have had
in the last month in this place. | 0:35:08 | 0:35:13 | |
Because it gives me the opportunity
to reiterate my for Universal | 0:35:13 | 0:35:15 | |
Credit. I am firmly of the view, as
are most people on this side of the | 0:35:15 | 0:35:24 | |
House, that work should always pay.
That is the principle that | 0:35:24 | 0:35:29 | |
underlines Universal Credit. And the
passion that there is on this side | 0:35:29 | 0:35:33 | |
of the House to ensure that more
people get into work, are supported | 0:35:33 | 0:35:36 | |
into work, and once there get on and
get ever more work in terms of hours | 0:35:36 | 0:35:45 | |
and in terms of quality of work. I
would be delighted to give way. I'm | 0:35:45 | 0:35:50 | |
grateful. Does he recognise and
remember that the Labour Party in | 0:35:50 | 0:35:53 | |
the early days of Universal Credit
when it was first mooted, was | 0:35:53 | 0:35:58 | |
supportive of the concept behind
Universal Credit, but said it needed | 0:35:58 | 0:36:01 | |
to be rolled out in a longer period
rather than one parliament and that | 0:36:01 | 0:36:06 | |
piloting needed to be much more
detailed to get the system right and | 0:36:06 | 0:36:09 | |
waiting. These are the issues that
have gone wrong and in inflicting | 0:36:09 | 0:36:16 | |
misery on a constituent. I will come
that in due course. But I wish the | 0:36:16 | 0:36:24 | |
Labour Party would speak up more
loudly for their principle behind | 0:36:24 | 0:36:28 | |
Universal Credit. Because actually
what it sounds like at the moment is | 0:36:28 | 0:36:32 | |
not the call for delay, it doesn't
sound like a call for a pause, it | 0:36:32 | 0:36:36 | |
sounds like a call for a scrap. And
the Labour Party has opposed every | 0:36:36 | 0:36:41 | |
single benefit change that this
Government has brought into effect | 0:36:41 | 0:36:44 | |
and would have cost tens of billions
of pounds. But more importantly, | 0:36:44 | 0:36:49 | |
isn't is not about the money. It is
about the people. It is about | 0:36:49 | 0:36:53 | |
encouraging people to get into work.
I would be honoured to give way. I | 0:36:53 | 0:36:58 | |
am really pleased to see his support
for Universal Credit despite failing | 0:36:58 | 0:37:02 | |
to vote for it the other week. That
would he also support a renewed | 0:37:02 | 0:37:06 | |
project to study Universal Credit
support to get people into work. The | 0:37:06 | 0:37:12 | |
DWP has delayed and denied the
opportunity to review that study to | 0:37:12 | 0:37:16 | |
prove whether it is still working or
not, because there is a lot of | 0:37:16 | 0:37:19 | |
expectation that it isn't. | 0:37:19 | 0:37:25 | |
I am chairman of the or
parliamentary group for youth | 0:37:25 | 0:37:28 | |
employment. I want to use any
mechanism there is to encourage | 0:37:28 | 0:37:32 | |
everyone to get into work. We had a
meeting of our all-party group and | 0:37:32 | 0:37:37 | |
perhaps he would listen to the
response rather than exchanging | 0:37:37 | 0:37:39 | |
across. I will speak up, but if he
does stop talking, he might be able | 0:37:39 | 0:37:45 | |
to listen more easily. He is more
than welcome to come along to our | 0:37:45 | 0:37:52 | |
meetings. We had our meeting
yesterday, and each month we track | 0:37:52 | 0:37:59 | |
those figures. It was pleasing to
see that even yesterday, we still | 0:37:59 | 0:38:07 | |
have record numbers of youth in
employment and record lows of young | 0:38:07 | 0:38:11 | |
people who are out of work.
Yesterday, the figures showed 11.9% | 0:38:11 | 0:38:16 | |
were in touching distance, with the
lowest on comparable records. This | 0:38:16 | 0:38:20 | |
is almost half the use and
employment rate that it was in 2011, | 0:38:20 | 0:38:25 | |
when it was over 22% after the
disastrous Labour government. Does | 0:38:25 | 0:38:31 | |
this he agree with me that on the
subject of creating jobs through | 0:38:31 | 0:38:36 | |
Universal Credit, studies have shown
that it is forecast to create 400 | 0:38:36 | 0:38:40 | |
jobs in every constituency across
the country? Does he welcomed this? | 0:38:40 | 0:38:46 | |
I warmly welcome that. I look
forward to the time when we debate | 0:38:46 | 0:38:50 | |
it and are looking back and saying
that this has been a success. Don't | 0:38:50 | 0:38:54 | |
get me wrong, we are not trying to
pretend that all is rosy and that | 0:38:54 | 0:38:59 | |
there are no errors, quite the
opposite. Those on the side of the | 0:38:59 | 0:39:02 | |
House as members opposite want to
make sure that it works and I want | 0:39:02 | 0:39:06 | |
to ensure that the minister is
testing and learning and that we are | 0:39:06 | 0:39:14 | |
constantly improving the system. But
on Universal Credit, I support any | 0:39:14 | 0:39:22 | |
principle that encourages more
people into work. The honourable | 0:39:22 | 0:39:25 | |
gentleman is about to leave the
chamber, but he can read it in | 0:39:25 | 0:39:28 | |
Hansard tomorrow. And he has sat
down! I said I would come back to | 0:39:28 | 0:39:37 | |
the Labour Party record. When the
Labour Party were in power, I had a | 0:39:37 | 0:39:41 | |
member of my community who came to
me and said he had chosen not to | 0:39:41 | 0:39:44 | |
take a job because it would not have
been worth his while. There would | 0:39:44 | 0:39:49 | |
have been a risk to his benefits and
a risk to him. I do not blame him. | 0:39:49 | 0:39:54 | |
He made a calculated and rational
decision and chose not to take that | 0:39:54 | 0:39:59 | |
job because of the policy of the
honourable gentleman's government. | 0:39:59 | 0:40:04 | |
That perhaps he could expend, if the
work incentives were so poor under | 0:40:04 | 0:40:08 | |
Labour, why lone parent implement
increased from 44% in 1994 to 57% | 0:40:08 | 0:40:12 | |
when we left office? -- and bone
parent employment increased -- lone | 0:40:12 | 0:40:21 | |
parent implement. It is always a
pleasure to lock horns with the | 0:40:21 | 0:40:27 | |
honourable member in a constructive
fashion. On the last occasion that | 0:40:27 | 0:40:31 | |
she chose me, she said, how about
the young people in poverty? If you | 0:40:31 | 0:40:35 | |
look at the figures on poverty,
there are 600,000 fewer people in | 0:40:35 | 0:40:42 | |
absolute poverty. I will check that
figure. But I want to come back to | 0:40:42 | 0:40:48 | |
the old system, the constituent who
came to me under the old system | 0:40:48 | 0:40:54 | |
saying it did not pay for him to go
to work. Under Universal Credit, the | 0:40:54 | 0:41:00 | |
principle should be that work always
pays. I want to come to tax credits | 0:41:00 | 0:41:05 | |
as well. We remember the fiasco.
£7.3 billion worth of overpayments. | 0:41:05 | 0:41:14 | |
The honourable gentleman, the member
for Hove, mentioned about the speed | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
with which this has been rolled out.
The lesson to be learnt is that if | 0:41:17 | 0:41:22 | |
you roll it out in a Big Bang
fashion such as tax credits, you | 0:41:22 | 0:41:28 | |
have £7.3 billion of overpayments
and 2.7 billion that had to be | 0:41:28 | 0:41:31 | |
clawed back from the poorest and
most vulnerable. Even as a new | 0:41:31 | 0:41:36 | |
member of Parliament in 2015, there
were still people feeling the | 0:41:36 | 0:41:42 | |
repercussions of that old system. I
have a minute and a half left. The | 0:41:42 | 0:41:47 | |
right honourable gentleman, the
member for Birkenhead, mentioned | 0:41:47 | 0:41:51 | |
about two weekly payments. I want to
ask the minister what the evidence | 0:41:51 | 0:41:54 | |
is about as to the numbers of people
in employment currently who receive | 0:41:54 | 0:41:59 | |
payment on a two weekly basis. My
suspicion is that it is a very low | 0:41:59 | 0:42:03 | |
proportion. But I want the minister
to tackle that directly. In | 0:42:03 | 0:42:10 | |
particular, I want the minister to
continue to listen and learn and | 0:42:10 | 0:42:15 | |
ensure that it always pays to be on
work rather than on benefits. Just | 0:42:15 | 0:42:19 | |
to help the situation because of the
interventions, I am going to drop | 0:42:19 | 0:42:24 | |
into five minutes now. If people
continue to intervene, they | 0:42:24 | 0:42:28 | |
understand that they would go to the
bottom of the list to make sure that | 0:42:28 | 0:42:32 | |
others get that chance. Chris
Stephens. I congratulate the | 0:42:32 | 0:42:42 | |
honourable member on his maiden
speech. He has still to be persuaded | 0:42:42 | 0:42:46 | |
on the merits of Scottish
independence and I look forward to | 0:42:46 | 0:42:48 | |
debating that with him in the next
few years. I thank him for paying | 0:42:48 | 0:42:57 | |
generous tribute to his predecessor.
As a member of the DWP select | 0:42:57 | 0:43:04 | |
committee, Mr Deputy Speaker, can I
start by saying that Glasgow is a | 0:43:04 | 0:43:11 | |
city where words often have more
than one meaning. An attempted to | 0:43:11 | 0:43:15 | |
some of this government's approach
to social secure the benefits and | 0:43:15 | 0:43:18 | |
Universal Credit, I would use the
word ignorant. Members opposite may | 0:43:18 | 0:43:23 | |
not agree with that
characterisation. They may point to | 0:43:23 | 0:43:26 | |
the architect of Universal Credit
referred to by the honourable member | 0:43:26 | 0:43:29 | |
for Birkenhead, the right honourable
member for Woods agreeing who | 0:43:29 | 0:43:37 | |
visited Glasgow in 2002, whereas
this year, the government are | 0:43:37 | 0:43:42 | |
closing Jobcentre in Easterhouse.
Being a member of the Scottish first | 0:43:42 | 0:43:51 | |
select committee, when we discussed
the situation of Glasgow Jobcentres, | 0:43:51 | 0:43:55 | |
could the honourable gentleman
confirm that Glasgow had somewhere | 0:43:55 | 0:43:58 | |
in the region of 16 Jobcentres and
the excellent proposal, in fact, it | 0:43:58 | 0:44:04 | |
wasn't radical enough in my view, of
the DWP was to reduce it to eight. | 0:44:04 | 0:44:08 | |
When you compared the number of
Jobcentres in comparable cities in | 0:44:08 | 0:44:13 | |
other parts of the country with
comparable rates of employment, they | 0:44:13 | 0:44:17 | |
often had two or three as opposed to
the eight. Order! In response to | 0:44:17 | 0:44:25 | |
that, I would say quickly that the
evidence that was used by the | 0:44:25 | 0:44:31 | |
government to justify closing those
Jobcentres was based on information | 0:44:31 | 0:44:35 | |
which didn't exist. They were using
Google Maps when they should have | 0:44:35 | 0:44:39 | |
been using an app that would have
told them that closing Jobcentres | 0:44:39 | 0:44:44 | |
means a complicated hour-long
journey. Faced with all the evidence | 0:44:44 | 0:44:55 | |
provided to the work and pensions
committee by a wide range of people | 0:44:55 | 0:44:59 | |
and organisations dealing with the
impact of Universal Credit, faced | 0:44:59 | 0:45:03 | |
with the reports from that committee
that outlines where the | 0:45:03 | 0:45:05 | |
implementation is going wrong, the
government continues to argue that | 0:45:05 | 0:45:09 | |
in in my city, we describe it as
ignorant. In Glasgow, it means | 0:45:09 | 0:45:17 | |
someone who doesn't know all the
facts, someone who doesn't know | 0:45:17 | 0:45:21 | |
better -- it doesn't mean that. It
means someone who knows all the | 0:45:21 | 0:45:24 | |
facts and knows what should be done,
but chooses to do whatever they want | 0:45:24 | 0:45:29 | |
despite it being wrong-headed and
damaging to others. We have already | 0:45:29 | 0:45:35 | |
heard the tired old government line
about the policy of government | 0:45:35 | 0:45:37 | |
credit as having been welcomed. It
is even in the top line of the work | 0:45:37 | 0:45:42 | |
and pensions committee report that
in principle, Universal Credit is a | 0:45:42 | 0:45:46 | |
good idea. But, and this can't be
emphasised enough, it is the design | 0:45:46 | 0:45:51 | |
and operation in practice that is
deeply and utterly flawed. Media | 0:45:51 | 0:45:56 | |
reports of a rethink or U-turn on
the waiting time for Universal | 0:45:56 | 0:45:59 | |
Credit were trailed yesterday come
but do not seem to present a clear | 0:45:59 | 0:46:05 | |
commitment to reduce to the four
weeks maximum. There was some link | 0:46:05 | 0:46:09 | |
to this story in next week's Budget.
I can only assume what many have | 0:46:09 | 0:46:14 | |
suspected, which is that Universal
Credit is less to do with supporting | 0:46:14 | 0:46:17 | |
people into employment and more to
do with cutting the benefits bill. | 0:46:17 | 0:46:25 | |
The Public and Commercial Services
Union has outlined how Universal | 0:46:25 | 0:46:28 | |
Credit works, as opposed to the
fantasy Island wishful thinking of | 0:46:28 | 0:46:32 | |
benefit system reforms. The pressure
on staff is intense, with one in ten | 0:46:32 | 0:46:36 | |
who work directly with Universal
Credit claims leaving, double what | 0:46:36 | 0:46:40 | |
is considered normal. The Department
for Work and Pensions employs 30,000 | 0:46:40 | 0:46:45 | |
fewer staff than it did in 2010. So
if the government is meant to be in | 0:46:45 | 0:46:49 | |
the job creation business, it
doesn't appear to be in its own | 0:46:49 | 0:46:54 | |
backyard, the civil service.
Jobcentre closures, lack of intimate | 0:46:54 | 0:47:00 | |
access and digital exclusion or put
a strain on claimants and staff -- | 0:47:00 | 0:47:03 | |
lack of internet access. I do claim
the dropping of telephone charges as | 0:47:03 | 0:47:14 | |
a recognition that something has to
give. The current situation is | 0:47:14 | 0:47:17 | |
unsustainable. As Universal Credit
follows from the intimidation of | 0:47:17 | 0:47:27 | |
Pip, which implemented hardship on
many people, it is hard not to join | 0:47:27 | 0:47:31 | |
the dots and work-out this
government makes things more | 0:47:31 | 0:47:38 | |
difficult. The changes to benefits
are part of cuts agenda. The budget | 0:47:38 | 0:47:41 | |
for Universal Credit is nearly 3
billion a year less than the system | 0:47:41 | 0:47:45 | |
it replaces. No wonder it has delays
to payments as if every pound owed | 0:47:45 | 0:47:55 | |
to claimants is held in government
accounts, the poorest in society are | 0:47:55 | 0:47:58 | |
subsidising government expense while
offshore savers do not pay tax. The | 0:47:58 | 0:48:06 | |
Universal Credit report mentions the
impact the six-week wait has on | 0:48:06 | 0:48:13 | |
claimants. It also identifies
problems which starts with a | 0:48:13 | 0:48:17 | |
claimant being in debt if they are
not already. There are clearly | 0:48:17 | 0:48:20 | |
situations with housing situation
not knowing that the tenants are on | 0:48:20 | 0:48:24 | |
Universal Credit. I hope the
government will also focus on that. | 0:48:24 | 0:48:32 | |
I am calling for the government to
cut the waiting time for Universal | 0:48:32 | 0:48:35 | |
Credit and pours the roll-out.
Glasgow will be the last major city | 0:48:35 | 0:48:38 | |
in the UK to be subject to the full
service roll-out. Before that, how | 0:48:38 | 0:48:42 | |
many thousands of families, children
and vulnerable people will have to | 0:48:42 | 0:48:46 | |
suffer and staff before we get to
that point? If a tenth of the | 0:48:46 | 0:48:50 | |
resources put into chasing benefit
fraud were put into chasing tax | 0:48:50 | 0:48:54 | |
avoidance, how much more resources
could truly support working people | 0:48:54 | 0:48:57 | |
and enable them to work rather than
cut off their lifelines? Before I | 0:48:57 | 0:49:04 | |
begin, I would like to pay tribute
to my honourable friend. I take | 0:49:04 | 0:49:09 | |
issue with his claiming to have the
most beautiful seat in Scotland, | 0:49:09 | 0:49:13 | |
possibly the most beautiful seat in
Aberdeenshire. Now that I know that | 0:49:13 | 0:49:17 | |
that is where the gannets are coming
from, if he could do us all a favour | 0:49:17 | 0:49:20 | |
and give them up north, I would be
grateful. This is the third time in | 0:49:20 | 0:49:25 | |
four weeks that we have debated
Universal Credit in this chamber. | 0:49:25 | 0:49:28 | |
That is not a bad thing. It affects
many of our constituents and it is | 0:49:28 | 0:49:34 | |
arguably the biggest reform to
welfare since the average report in | 0:49:34 | 0:49:37 | |
1940, so it is right that we debate
this reform. I'm lucky at this stage | 0:49:37 | 0:49:42 | |
of my parliament should career to
sit on the work and pensions select | 0:49:42 | 0:49:47 | |
committee. That is under the
chairmanship of the honourable | 0:49:47 | 0:49:53 | |
member for Birkenhead, whose skill
as a lesson in how to drive a | 0:49:53 | 0:49:56 | |
debate. I sit under some passionate
and loaded MPs of all persuasions. | 0:49:56 | 0:49:59 | |
What unites us is the desire to get
to the nub of some of the biggest | 0:49:59 | 0:50:03 | |
issues facing our welfare system and
get answers and find out how we can | 0:50:03 | 0:50:07 | |
make it better for our constituents
who rely on it. I hope this comes | 0:50:07 | 0:50:12 | |
through in the report we are talking
about today. We all hopefully | 0:50:12 | 0:50:15 | |
believe in Universal Credit and we
want it to work. As the first page | 0:50:15 | 0:50:20 | |
of the report states, Universal
Credit has great merits. It aims to | 0:50:20 | 0:50:25 | |
simplify another computer system by
combining six benefits into one. It | 0:50:25 | 0:50:28 | |
improves incentives for people to
start paid work or increase their | 0:50:28 | 0:50:32 | |
hours and it is the path to work
party by mirroring the world of work | 0:50:32 | 0:50:38 | |
in its operation. The report goes on
to say that implement properly, | 0:50:38 | 0:50:41 | |
Universal Credit has the potential
to have a genuinely transformative | 0:50:41 | 0:50:44 | |
effect on the labour market and can
help reduce poverty. I believe | 0:50:44 | 0:50:49 | |
Universal Credit is and can work. As
I have said before, the Universal | 0:50:49 | 0:50:54 | |
Credit work report found that 71% of
people claiming Universal Credit | 0:50:54 | 0:50:58 | |
found work within the first nine
months of their claim, which is a | 0:50:58 | 0:51:02 | |
rate 8% higher than that of the
comparable job-seeker's allowance. | 0:51:02 | 0:51:05 | |
And people claiming Universal Credit
were three percentage points more | 0:51:05 | 0:51:10 | |
likely to be in work after three
months than those claiming JSA and | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
four percentage points more likely
to have been in work six months | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
after starting their claim. These
numbers look small, but signify | 0:51:17 | 0:51:21 | |
thousands of lives which are
dramatically improved by this | 0:51:21 | 0:51:25 | |
policy. However, there are genuine
concerns concerning elements of the | 0:51:25 | 0:51:33 | |
roll-out, specifically the six-week
wait for the first payment. It would | 0:51:33 | 0:51:36 | |
be remiss of us to ignore these. The
committee has put in the report that | 0:51:36 | 0:51:41 | |
we are debating today that the
six-week wait has been associated | 0:51:41 | 0:51:44 | |
with increases in rent arrears,
problem debt and food bag use. It | 0:51:44 | 0:51:49 | |
urges the government to aim to
reduce the standard waiting time for | 0:51:49 | 0:51:53 | |
a first Universal Credit payments to
one month. But it would be remiss of | 0:51:53 | 0:51:57 | |
us not to acknowledge that the
government has not been proactive in | 0:51:57 | 0:52:00 | |
trying to find solutions for our
constituents who need the help of | 0:52:00 | 0:52:06 | |
the most or cannot wait the six-week
period. | 0:52:06 | 0:52:15 | |
The Secretary of State announced
that the DWP would make Universal | 0:52:15 | 0:52:19 | |
Credit more widely available to
those who needed them. And we were | 0:52:19 | 0:52:22 | |
all impressed by the ease and speed
by which an advanced payment could | 0:52:22 | 0:52:26 | |
be granted. This debate is not
supposed to be about whether we | 0:52:26 | 0:52:29 | |
should pause or stop the roll-out of
Universal Credit. It is on the | 0:52:29 | 0:52:36 | |
report of the work and pensions
committee. I feel the report is | 0:52:36 | 0:52:39 | |
balanced and 60 give recommendations
to the Government run than unduly | 0:52:39 | 0:52:43 | |
criticised what we all want to be a
successful roll-out of a | 0:52:43 | 0:52:49 | |
transformation will roll-out
benefit. The Government are doing | 0:52:49 | 0:52:51 | |
what we all want them to do, pushing
ahead and learning... I will give | 0:52:51 | 0:52:57 | |
way. And listening hard because
Universal Credit is seen to come to | 0:52:57 | 0:53:03 | |
my constituency. I am very pleased
to hear and say that the advance | 0:53:03 | 0:53:08 | |
payments helps with the six-week
gap. Has he looked at the repayment | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
period for these advanced payments
and is there enough flexibility in | 0:53:12 | 0:53:19 | |
the repayment of the advance payment
especially the people who are | 0:53:19 | 0:53:22 | |
challenged for getting back to work?
I thank my honourable friend for the | 0:53:22 | 0:53:27 | |
intervention and I will be blunt and
honest and say I have not looked at | 0:53:27 | 0:53:31 | |
that in great detail. But I will do
so and get back to you. I was going | 0:53:31 | 0:53:34 | |
to say that the Government is
listening and should be doing what | 0:53:34 | 0:53:38 | |
we wanted to do and that is to crash
course asleep ahead, learning and | 0:53:38 | 0:53:44 | |
refining the system as it continues
to roll out this important benefit | 0:53:44 | 0:53:50 | |
to the people of the UK. I would
just like to share my | 0:53:50 | 0:53:55 | |
congratulations for an excellent
maiden speech and to congratulate | 0:53:55 | 0:54:00 | |
the honourable member for Birkenhead
for securing this debate. At Prime | 0:54:00 | 0:54:05 | |
Minister's Questions yesterday, the
Leader of the Opposition raise a | 0:54:05 | 0:54:10 | |
letter from an agency in my
constituency which... In | 0:54:10 | 0:54:16 | |
anticipation of the roll-out next
month. Effectively a pre-emptive | 0:54:16 | 0:54:22 | |
notice for affection. And that
notice means that any constituent | 0:54:22 | 0:54:32 | |
who falls into rent arrears because
of the delay in their well for | 0:54:32 | 0:54:35 | |
payments can be evicted without any
notice. The roll-out payments in my | 0:54:35 | 0:54:41 | |
constituency is due on the 13th of
December for all new claimants. | 0:54:41 | 0:54:44 | |
Because of the issuing date of this
notice it means that the earliest | 0:54:44 | 0:54:50 | |
that people could find themselves at
risk of eviction will be in mid | 0:54:50 | 0:54:54 | |
January. They can be evicted without
notice because it has already been | 0:54:54 | 0:55:01 | |
served from mid-January until
mid-May at which point the notice | 0:55:01 | 0:55:05 | |
then expires and I assume that the
plan will then to be too reissued | 0:55:05 | 0:55:10 | |
them all. The constituent that first
contacted me about this said that | 0:55:10 | 0:55:14 | |
she feels utterly helpless and
heartsick. I think it is an | 0:55:14 | 0:55:18 | |
outrageous way to treat people and
will have left all of those who | 0:55:18 | 0:55:24 | |
received it stressed and worried for
their futures. The honourable lady | 0:55:24 | 0:55:30 | |
Ken asked to give way they cannot
remain on her feet. I was really | 0:55:30 | 0:55:36 | |
disappointed that the Prime Minister
yesterday did not condemn that | 0:55:36 | 0:55:39 | |
letter in the chamber. I would like
to invite the minister here today to | 0:55:39 | 0:55:45 | |
do that today instead. Yesterday the
Prime Minister, rather than | 0:55:45 | 0:55:50 | |
acknowledging the impact that this
policy is clearly happening, she | 0:55:50 | 0:55:54 | |
waxed and waned about the fact that
she had not seen a copy of the | 0:55:54 | 0:55:57 | |
letter. Well, I have got that letter
here today and I'm very happy to | 0:55:57 | 0:56:01 | |
hand over to the minister once I
have finished my speech so that he | 0:56:01 | 0:56:05 | |
has a chance read for himself first,
if he has not done so already. It | 0:56:05 | 0:56:12 | |
appears to me a blatant attempt to
circumvent the laws passed in the | 0:56:12 | 0:56:18 | |
Housing act 1988 and the
deregulation act 2015 which requires | 0:56:18 | 0:56:23 | |
two months notice to be given to
tenants before an eviction can be | 0:56:23 | 0:56:27 | |
carried out. A giveaway... A number
of this on this bench would like to | 0:56:27 | 0:56:36 | |
join her in condemning that letter
which we believe is illegal and we | 0:56:36 | 0:56:40 | |
would like to have a copy because my
question to the honourable member, | 0:56:40 | 0:56:44 | |
is how she actually met the housing
association to tell? Letter is | 0:56:44 | 0:56:53 | |
becoming... What that would suggest
is that it can be passed to the | 0:56:53 | 0:56:58 | |
member when the member has finished
speaking. What I need to make | 0:56:58 | 0:57:05 | |
absolutely clear is about the
private rental sector, not the | 0:57:05 | 0:57:08 | |
housing association. And the members
opposite me may well feel that this | 0:57:08 | 0:57:11 | |
is illegal. And one of them was
condemning the intervention earlier | 0:57:11 | 0:57:16 | |
about the fact that they believe
this to be illegal. Having received | 0:57:16 | 0:57:23 | |
to some completely unsolicited legal
advice when lawyers in house have | 0:57:23 | 0:57:26 | |
contacted me saying that this is not
illegal. It is completely | 0:57:26 | 0:57:32 | |
legitimate. One of the big issues
with this is that even if it were to | 0:57:32 | 0:57:37 | |
be illegal, that many of these
people would not have the | 0:57:37 | 0:57:42 | |
capabilities to seek legal redress
anyway. And that is a real issue. | 0:57:42 | 0:57:55 | |
Despite the very clear moral actions
around this question, I am advised | 0:57:55 | 0:57:59 | |
that this remains a lawful way of
operating. I have even had some | 0:57:59 | 0:58:04 | |
indication that some landlords are
issuing these notices at the outset | 0:58:04 | 0:58:09 | |
of tenancies, which is really quite
frightening. But a much bigger issue | 0:58:09 | 0:58:13 | |
than that that we're discussing here
today. But I really hope the | 0:58:13 | 0:58:16 | |
Government will look at closing this
loophole in the future. I'm very | 0:58:16 | 0:58:20 | |
happy to share the information that
is online, my Facebook page, people | 0:58:20 | 0:58:26 | |
are very welcome to go and look at
that. The Government said that my | 0:58:26 | 0:58:29 | |
colleagues and I on the side of the
House were guilty of scaremongering | 0:58:29 | 0:58:32 | |
when we warned that rolling out
Universal Credit could lead to | 0:58:32 | 0:58:35 | |
people going into debt or being
evicted from their properties. It is | 0:58:35 | 0:58:38 | |
not just ask that are making this
claim. It is charities, councils, | 0:58:38 | 0:58:44 | |
housing associations, it is the
statistical evidence from the areas | 0:58:44 | 0:58:48 | |
where Universal Credit has already
been piloted, and now it is the | 0:58:48 | 0:58:51 | |
letting agencies to. My local has
182 tenants that have gone onto | 0:58:51 | 0:59:01 | |
credit, 145 are already in rent
arrears of £400, 80% of them. When | 0:59:01 | 0:59:07 | |
Universal Credit is fully rolled
out, the housing association are | 0:59:07 | 0:59:10 | |
expecting to see a total debt from
tennis to increase to £2.2 million. | 0:59:10 | 0:59:15 | |
A giveaway... Would she agree with
me that actually if the Government | 0:59:15 | 0:59:23 | |
were to extend the implied consent
so that third sectors like housing | 0:59:23 | 0:59:28 | |
associations, but more importantly,
CAD and well -- well for advisers | 0:59:28 | 0:59:35 | |
could give advice to people in
Universal Credit without jumping | 0:59:35 | 0:59:39 | |
through hoops to speak with the
Universal Credit managers. I think | 0:59:39 | 0:59:44 | |
that that is an excellent idea. I
hope the minister will consider | 0:59:44 | 0:59:49 | |
carefully and respond to. My housing
association expecting an increase... | 0:59:49 | 1:00:03 | |
Expecting their properties to
deteriorate rather than people | 1:00:03 | 1:00:04 | |
choose to eat rather than heat. I am
sure that everybody will understand | 1:00:04 | 1:00:12 | |
that I am really concerned that
people in my town will pay a heavy | 1:00:12 | 1:00:17 | |
price if the system doesn't work.
The warnings against pushing ahead | 1:00:17 | 1:00:20 | |
with this roll-out now are loud and
clear. The Government cannot feign | 1:00:20 | 1:00:25 | |
ignorance of what is likely to come.
If they go ahead next month in my | 1:00:25 | 1:00:29 | |
constituency as planned, they will
knowingly be putting more people at | 1:00:29 | 1:00:36 | |
risk of debt, fiction and
homelessness. To me, that really sit | 1:00:36 | 1:00:39 | |
at odds with their much heralded
homelessness act, it appears the two | 1:00:39 | 1:00:50 | |
areas of policy are at complete odds
with one another. That is the test, | 1:00:50 | 1:00:54 | |
which one is more important to them?
I am pleading with the Government to | 1:00:54 | 1:01:00 | |
listen, press pause on the roll-out
and get this right before moving | 1:01:00 | 1:01:02 | |
ahead. My congratulations to the
maiden speech. Thank you to the | 1:01:02 | 1:01:20 | |
right honourable member to
Birkenhead for securing this debate | 1:01:20 | 1:01:23 | |
and for working so closely in
cross-party partnership with me on | 1:01:23 | 1:01:26 | |
an issue which I know is very
important to both of us. Members of | 1:01:26 | 1:01:30 | |
this House and ministers will know
that I fully support Universal | 1:01:30 | 1:01:33 | |
Credit and believe that when it is
fully implemented that it will be | 1:01:33 | 1:01:37 | |
the most positive transformation of
benefit system in decades. As an | 1:01:37 | 1:01:42 | |
employer, I remember only too well
the weaknesses of the old suits. The | 1:01:42 | 1:01:46 | |
16 hour cliff edge that limited
employees ability to take on more | 1:01:46 | 1:01:49 | |
rows knowing they will be worse off.
I was reminded of this in a | 1:01:49 | 1:01:54 | |
conversation last week with a
constituent, because the full | 1:01:54 | 1:01:57 | |
service has not come to my local job
centre in Cambridge. She does not | 1:01:57 | 1:02:00 | |
want to take any more hours now
because of this. What kind of a | 1:02:00 | 1:02:04 | |
benefit trap is that? No one in this
House can surely support a benefit | 1:02:04 | 1:02:08 | |
system that actively discourages
progression in work. Universal | 1:02:08 | 1:02:10 | |
Credit will be different. The basic
system for single and complicated | 1:02:10 | 1:02:16 | |
job-seekers has been rolled out, it
is different. We see more people | 1:02:16 | 1:02:22 | |
moving into and upwards in work. But
it is without doubt the full | 1:02:22 | 1:02:25 | |
service, the full Universal Credit
system that will support parents, | 1:02:25 | 1:02:31 | |
families and people with
disabilities were many others | 1:02:31 | 1:02:33 | |
concerns. I appreciate that such a
huge transformation in operation | 1:02:33 | 1:02:37 | |
will come with challenges and that
the test and learn approach is | 1:02:37 | 1:02:41 | |
commonplace with IT projects. At the
credit -- crucial difference is that | 1:02:41 | 1:02:48 | |
this is about real lives and people.
Get it right and the potential is | 1:02:48 | 1:02:55 | |
huge. But get it wrong and the risks
are simply too great. They may | 1:02:55 | 1:03:01 | |
manifest themselves, I will say, in
debt and hunger. It is right that | 1:03:01 | 1:03:07 | |
ministers have opted to roll
Universal Credit out slowly steadily | 1:03:07 | 1:03:11 | |
and carefully. There have been
unacceptable delays in first | 1:03:11 | 1:03:14 | |
payments. I wish we had a freephone
number for everyone from the | 1:03:14 | 1:03:20 | |
beginning. There remain part of the
system that are incomplete. The | 1:03:20 | 1:03:24 | |
minimum income for the self-employed
and the evidence gathering process | 1:03:24 | 1:03:27 | |
for childcare costs need further
development. If I am honest, I | 1:03:27 | 1:03:31 | |
believe the system will never reach
is truly intended potential as the | 1:03:31 | 1:03:35 | |
ultimate poverty fighting machine,
into the tape rate is reduced or | 1:03:35 | 1:03:39 | |
work allowance is restored to their
pre-2015 levels. I think the | 1:03:39 | 1:03:44 | |
Chancellor for reducing the tape
rate by 2% in the last budget. Every | 1:03:44 | 1:03:51 | |
penny really does matter for those
living on the lowest incomes. Single | 1:03:51 | 1:03:55 | |
parents and second parents returning
to work will be worse off now than | 1:03:55 | 1:03:58 | |
they would have been under the old
system. And in wet couple will lose | 1:03:58 | 1:04:03 | |
about £1300 a year to the benefits
cuts. Aren't they the very people we | 1:04:03 | 1:04:08 | |
should be in courage and to get into
work as MAC tight fiscal discipline | 1:04:08 | 1:04:12 | |
and razor sharp focusing of precious
resources and precise and meaningful | 1:04:12 | 1:04:17 | |
intervention and smart thinking,
that is what this Government does | 1:04:17 | 1:04:19 | |
well. We could find the money to
reverse the decision from 11,212 and | 1:04:19 | 1:04:27 | |
a half thousand for all. Would it
not be better to focus on the money | 1:04:27 | 1:04:30 | |
that need it? I don't need it, I
suspect you don't need it. If we | 1:04:30 | 1:04:36 | |
want Universal Credit to be exactly
like the world of work it has to | 1:04:36 | 1:04:41 | |
operate like the world of work. Can
any Government minister or civil | 1:04:41 | 1:04:44 | |
servant honestly say that waiting
six weeks for your first payment is | 1:04:44 | 1:04:47 | |
normal. From my Universal Credit
wish list, one ask stands head and | 1:04:47 | 1:04:51 | |
shoulders above the rest. We have
got to get the six week weight down. | 1:04:51 | 1:04:56 | |
I remain grateful and I appreciate
the Secretary of State diligence and | 1:04:56 | 1:05:05 | |
receptiveness in hearing our
concerns. Members on all sides of | 1:05:05 | 1:05:08 | |
this House, peers, charities, the
children's Commissioner and most | 1:05:08 | 1:05:13 | |
importantly of our our constituents
have raised concerns. We can't all | 1:05:13 | 1:05:19 | |
be wrong. This six week weight must
be reduced to a month. Put £1 | 1:05:19 | 1:05:28 | |
billion back into the paper rate
with the right things to do. As well | 1:05:28 | 1:05:38 | |
as making recommendations I think it
is sincerely meant and it will be | 1:05:38 | 1:05:43 | |
taken by the minister as what the
Government can do as evidenced by | 1:05:43 | 1:05:46 | |
what is in the House today. It
involved immoral letting agencies | 1:05:46 | 1:05:53 | |
also need to act. System change of
this magnitude require everyone to | 1:05:53 | 1:06:00 | |
work properly and with integrity and
not inflicting any influence on the | 1:06:00 | 1:06:04 | |
most honourable -- vulnerable.
Further to her point about the six | 1:06:04 | 1:06:16 | |
weeks, which I entirely endorse and
pays the member for. Would she seek | 1:06:16 | 1:06:23 | |
my point that this situation is
worse and when you have a remote | 1:06:23 | 1:06:28 | |
constituency in Scotland which they
do not find themselves in a food | 1:06:28 | 1:06:34 | |
bank or friends and relations who
might be able to tide them over. | 1:06:34 | 1:06:39 | |
There is a sparsity issue to this
which worries me greatly. There are | 1:06:39 | 1:06:42 | |
many elements which make it
especially difficult for some | 1:06:42 | 1:06:46 | |
people. We have to recognise that
one system will not work everybody | 1:06:46 | 1:06:49 | |
and we have to work together to find
solutions. The reputation of this | 1:06:49 | 1:06:53 | |
place has hit rock bottom again in
recent weeks. Let's turn it around. | 1:06:53 | 1:06:57 | |
I checked couple but in a source.
Compassionate, empathetic, | 1:06:57 | 1:07:04 | |
thoughtful, showing concern for
others. -- thesaurus. A | 1:07:04 | 1:07:09 | |
compassionate conservative does both
of these things. Progressive and | 1:07:09 | 1:07:14 | |
three but safeguarding of society in
showing care for eyes. Let's show we | 1:07:14 | 1:07:18 | |
are listening, please minister,
let's do this. | 1:07:18 | 1:07:21 | |
I am pleased to follow the
honourable lady, who has established | 1:07:26 | 1:07:30 | |
a positive reputation on these
issues. I thank the business | 1:07:30 | 1:07:35 | |
committee for the opportunity to
debate Universal Credit again and I | 1:07:35 | 1:07:39 | |
congratulate my right honourable
friend from Birkenhead, who has a | 1:07:39 | 1:07:43 | |
slightly longer reputation than the
honourable lady for campaigning on | 1:07:43 | 1:07:45 | |
these issues. I hope the minister
can confirm the reports in the media | 1:07:45 | 1:07:55 | |
that the Chancellor will be taking
action in his Budget next week to | 1:07:55 | 1:07:59 | |
reduce the waiting time on Universal
Credit, and also that other changes | 1:07:59 | 1:08:02 | |
might be made. It is clear from the
contributions so far that it is not | 1:08:02 | 1:08:09 | |
just about the waiting time, the
problems with Universal Credit. I | 1:08:09 | 1:08:14 | |
want to refer to some statistics and
cases from my own constituency. | 1:08:14 | 1:08:19 | |
Citizens Advice East End London tell
me that analysis suggests that | 1:08:19 | 1:08:24 | |
22,000 families in Poplar and
Limehouse will be in receipt of | 1:08:24 | 1:08:27 | |
Universal Credit by 2022, half of
whom will be in work. They have | 1:08:27 | 1:08:31 | |
dealt with hundreds of cases
already, half of which relate to the | 1:08:31 | 1:08:35 | |
claiming process. One involved a
young mother with a five-month-old | 1:08:35 | 1:08:39 | |
baby refused Universal Credit due to
an incorrect decision on her right | 1:08:39 | 1:08:42 | |
to resign. On rent arrears, I am
grateful for information surprised | 1:08:42 | 1:08:47 | |
by Andrea Baker. She tells me that
of their residents claiming | 1:08:47 | 1:08:52 | |
Universal Credit, of the 372, 90 8%
are in arrears. That can't be right. | 1:08:52 | 1:09:01 | |
Something has gone wrong somewhere
in the system where the statistics | 1:09:01 | 1:09:06 | |
for it benefit cap on housing
benefit and bedroom tax are less | 1:09:06 | 1:09:09 | |
than half that number. Andrea says
that whilst there are still | 1:09:09 | 1:09:14 | |
relatively fewer households
transitioning to Universal Credit, | 1:09:14 | 1:09:16 | |
the average 10-week wait for the
first payment has pushed 98% of them | 1:09:16 | 1:09:21 | |
into rent arrears. We anticipate
that it would be very difficult for | 1:09:21 | 1:09:24 | |
the majority of Universal Credit
households to make up the accrued | 1:09:24 | 1:09:27 | |
arrears. When the payment is finally
received, there are also likely to | 1:09:27 | 1:09:33 | |
owe money to others, family,
friends, utility, credit cards, | 1:09:33 | 1:09:38 | |
payday loans and credit cards. While
we advise that pain when should be | 1:09:38 | 1:09:42 | |
the priority, -- paying rent should
be a priority, I have had similar | 1:09:42 | 1:09:50 | |
reports from elsewhere. We have
received statistics. For example, a | 1:09:50 | 1:10:01 | |
61-year-old man made redundant last
year after working in mental health | 1:10:01 | 1:10:06 | |
for 22 years, following funding cuts
he was unable to find work and with | 1:10:06 | 1:10:10 | |
the savings made the decision to
claim you see in August. His claim | 1:10:10 | 1:10:14 | |
has been continually refused on the
grounds of missing documentation. In | 1:10:14 | 1:10:19 | |
September he was informed his
housing benefit would be stopped | 1:10:19 | 1:10:22 | |
with. With no UC, he has now fallen
into £700 of rent arrears with his | 1:10:22 | 1:10:27 | |
housing association. He has £200 to
his name and now fears eviction and | 1:10:27 | 1:10:34 | |
homelessness despite still
unsuccessfully trying to claim | 1:10:34 | 1:10:36 | |
Universal Credit and attending five
job interviews. He writes, after | 1:10:36 | 1:10:42 | |
four decades of almost continual
employment, I find it incredible to | 1:10:42 | 1:10:45 | |
find myself in this parlous state
and faced with possible | 1:10:45 | 1:10:48 | |
homelessness. There are a number of
other cases of people on low pay | 1:10:48 | 1:10:56 | |
whose monthly income is incorrectly
calculated, people with partners who | 1:10:56 | 1:11:04 | |
are a student having their
eligibility for credit miscalculated | 1:11:04 | 1:11:07 | |
because of the minimum income flow
which suggests that self-employed | 1:11:07 | 1:11:11 | |
people are targeted as earning £1000
a month, regardless of what they are | 1:11:11 | 1:11:15 | |
actually earning. And a lady
attended my surgery in a fragile | 1:11:15 | 1:11:21 | |
state both emotionally and
physically. She initially made a | 1:11:21 | 1:11:24 | |
claim for Universal Credit in
August. She was unable to manage the | 1:11:24 | 1:11:28 | |
referrals because of medical and
mental issues and missed a vital | 1:11:28 | 1:11:31 | |
meeting which led to her claim being
closed. Her benefit was finally paid | 1:11:31 | 1:11:34 | |
after ten weeks with only a small
interim payment and having to access | 1:11:34 | 1:11:42 | |
a local food bank. This case was
resolved quickly, but only after | 1:11:42 | 1:11:46 | |
intervention by my team, stating how
concerned they were for Miss K's | 1:11:46 | 1:11:52 | |
well-being. The food love foundation
say that Universal Credit referrals | 1:11:52 | 1:11:56 | |
this year to the food bank are 25%
when they were only 4% last year. | 1:11:56 | 1:12:00 | |
All of these cases tell me that
Universal Credit isn't working for a | 1:12:00 | 1:12:06 | |
variety of reasons. I hope the
minister can offer some expectation | 1:12:06 | 1:12:10 | |
is that things will improve for my
constituents as well as others whose | 1:12:10 | 1:12:14 | |
members of Parliament have been
making the case for them this | 1:12:14 | 1:12:17 | |
afternoon. I would like to
congratulate the right honourable | 1:12:17 | 1:12:25 | |
gentleman for Birkenhead in securing
this debate and also to listen to | 1:12:25 | 1:12:31 | |
the new member for Bamford in a
superb maiden speech and the debate | 1:12:31 | 1:12:38 | |
about the most beautiful Scottish
constituency carries on to this day. | 1:12:38 | 1:12:42 | |
Waiting seven weeks for a first
payment in any circumstance is very | 1:12:42 | 1:12:45 | |
challenging. If someone middle class
gets a new job and they have to wait | 1:12:45 | 1:12:52 | |
six weeks for their first pay, that
would be challenging. But it is | 1:12:52 | 1:12:58 | |
likely that that individual would
have savings to fall back upon. | 1:12:58 | 1:13:01 | |
There might be friends and family to
offer support. And they would have a | 1:13:01 | 1:13:08 | |
good salary to look forward to once
they started their job. But someone | 1:13:08 | 1:13:15 | |
on Universal Credit, someone
receiving benefits, would far less | 1:13:15 | 1:13:21 | |
likely have that information, would
be less likely to have savings. | 1:13:21 | 1:13:26 | |
Their friends and family may not be
so able to offer support. They would | 1:13:26 | 1:13:30 | |
be in a far more tricky position if
receiving benefits, perhaps having | 1:13:30 | 1:13:37 | |
lived on the minimum wage or the
living wage. So we have to recognise | 1:13:37 | 1:13:43 | |
that. The six-week wait is
enormously difficult for people in | 1:13:43 | 1:13:48 | |
the most vulnerable position in
society. I believe we ought to get | 1:13:48 | 1:13:54 | |
closer to the vision set out in
Universal Credit when it was | 1:13:54 | 1:13:57 | |
initially rolled out, the sense of
it being compatible with work, that | 1:13:57 | 1:14:04 | |
work should always pay. But it is
not the only place where Universal | 1:14:04 | 1:14:09 | |
Credit needs to get closer to that
initial vision. We need to reduce | 1:14:09 | 1:14:13 | |
those seven waiting dates. If
someone has previously been on | 1:14:13 | 1:14:18 | |
minimum wage and has no savings and
has to spend seven days without any | 1:14:18 | 1:14:23 | |
income before, five weeks following
the seven days, they receive their | 1:14:23 | 1:14:28 | |
first payment, that is very
difficult for someone with very | 1:14:28 | 1:14:33 | |
little back-up. We also need to look
at the paper and go further to | 1:14:33 | 1:14:46 | |
giving judgment for people to get
into work. But we do have a | 1:14:46 | 1:14:51 | |
listening government. I would like
to highlight a note sent to me by | 1:14:51 | 1:14:55 | |
Bolton Citizens Advice Bureau. It
says "We welcome the government's | 1:14:55 | 1:15:00 | |
position to make the Universal
Credit helpline free and ensure that | 1:15:00 | 1:15:03 | |
all claimants are told they could
get an advance payment". We call for | 1:15:03 | 1:15:09 | |
the exchanges in July because they
will make a real difference to the | 1:15:09 | 1:15:11 | |
people we help. On the subject of
advance payments, I thought there | 1:15:11 | 1:15:20 | |
was nothing I didn't know about UC,
but you can have a three-month | 1:15:20 | 1:15:24 | |
payment holiday before you pay those
advance payments back. Do you think | 1:15:24 | 1:15:29 | |
the Jobcentre should advertise that
more? My honourable friend makes an | 1:15:29 | 1:15:34 | |
important point. It is important to
increase the communication, and that | 1:15:34 | 1:15:40 | |
awareness is vital. Citizens Advice
and other organisations play a vital | 1:15:40 | 1:15:43 | |
part in this. I know many people are
calling for the month to force or | 1:15:43 | 1:15:54 | |
perhaps even stop the roll-out of
Universal Credit. I don't agree with | 1:15:54 | 1:15:57 | |
that. I visited a Jobcentre recently
that serves my constituents, and | 1:15:57 | 1:16:04 | |
they were clear - do not stop. My
honourable friend, the member for | 1:16:04 | 1:16:08 | |
South Cambridgeshire, highlighted a
number of failings with the current | 1:16:08 | 1:16:14 | |
system. It has been failing far too
many people, so we do need to move | 1:16:14 | 1:16:21 | |
on to Universal Credit, but the
initial weight must come down from | 1:16:21 | 1:16:26 | |
six weeks to one month. It is a
pleasure to be in a debate and have | 1:16:26 | 1:16:34 | |
heard the maiden speech of the
Honourable member for Bamford and to | 1:16:34 | 1:16:38 | |
follow Honourable members including
my honourable friend, the member for | 1:16:38 | 1:16:42 | |
Birkenhead. No one could object to
Universal Credit's ambitions to | 1:16:42 | 1:16:48 | |
simplify the benefits system and
make work pay and reduce poverty. | 1:16:48 | 1:16:51 | |
But so much has gone wrong in
practice that it is hard in this | 1:16:51 | 1:16:55 | |
debate to know where to start. The
problems we see are not just because | 1:16:55 | 1:16:59 | |
of poor implementation. They are
problems that have been designed in | 1:16:59 | 1:17:04 | |
from the outset, despite repeated
warnings from Honourable members on | 1:17:04 | 1:17:07 | |
this side of the House since 2011.
The programme was too ambitious, too | 1:17:07 | 1:17:12 | |
risky, too complicated, too reliant
complex IT systems. And it didn't go | 1:17:12 | 1:17:18 | |
with the greater people's lives.
Let's start with the six-week wait, | 1:17:18 | 1:17:24 | |
based on the prejudice that the
right and normal way in which to | 1:17:24 | 1:17:27 | |
receive your income is every month.
That is not the case for many | 1:17:27 | 1:17:31 | |
low-paid workers, as we know. There
is also the assumption just alluded | 1:17:31 | 1:17:37 | |
to that there might be people who
have savings in the back. Ask | 1:17:37 | 1:17:42 | |
yourselves, could you manage if
suddenly, your income dried up for | 1:17:42 | 1:17:45 | |
six weeks or more, especially if it
was the result of an expected a | 1:17:45 | 1:17:50 | |
catastrophic event? You lost your
job, a partner left, Utah became ill | 1:17:50 | 1:17:54 | |
or you had an accident and couldn't
go to work? It is unforgivable to | 1:17:54 | 1:17:58 | |
put extra pressure on people on the
lowest incomes in those | 1:17:58 | 1:18:01 | |
circumstances. The six-week wait
must be reduced. I recognise that | 1:18:01 | 1:18:06 | |
exceptions can be made, but it is
not clear that the system is working | 1:18:06 | 1:18:10 | |
when it should. My constituent was
fleeing domestic violence and told | 1:18:10 | 1:18:13 | |
that she would not have to wait the
six-week waiting period, but she | 1:18:13 | 1:18:17 | |
still had no money after two weeks.
That leads me to problems with | 1:18:17 | 1:18:23 | |
advance payments. My constituent K
was not told that they were | 1:18:23 | 1:18:30 | |
available. And the repayment rate
when she did secure an advance | 1:18:30 | 1:18:34 | |
payment is punitively high,
especially when combined with the | 1:18:34 | 1:18:39 | |
recovery of other debts such as
council tax debt, unit -- utility | 1:18:39 | 1:18:43 | |
debt or debts imposed by
Magistrates' Courts. Under Universal | 1:18:43 | 1:18:46 | |
Credit, that can mean deductions of
up to 40%, leaving claimants with | 1:18:46 | 1:18:51 | |
insufficient to live on. One lone
parent in my constituency was left | 1:18:51 | 1:18:55 | |
with just £100.57 for a week to pay
all the bills, £110 less than on the | 1:18:55 | 1:19:04 | |
legacy benefit. How can that be
right? Problems with debt are also | 1:19:04 | 1:19:08 | |
creating problems with rent arrears.
80% of Trafford housing trust | 1:19:08 | 1:19:15 | |
customers are in rent arrears. The
collection which is 79.3%. While it | 1:19:15 | 1:19:20 | |
is much higher over three months,
that is because by that point, | 1:19:20 | 1:19:25 | |
mistakes in paying their benefit
have largely been sorted out or | 1:19:25 | 1:19:28 | |
because they have got debt relief
orders in place. It is not because | 1:19:28 | 1:19:31 | |
they are adapting to Universal
Credit, but because other things are | 1:19:31 | 1:19:35 | |
kicking in. These problems are
compounded by a complete lack of | 1:19:35 | 1:19:39 | |
understanding in Jobcentre plus
about alternative payment | 1:19:39 | 1:19:42 | |
arrangements, in other words, paying
the rent direct to landlords. The | 1:19:42 | 1:19:45 | |
Trafford housing staff tell me that
Jobcentre plus staff don't | 1:19:45 | 1:19:49 | |
understand this, make mistakes in
calculation is, make payments to | 1:19:49 | 1:20:00 | |
claimants which should not be made
which are then promptly swallowed up | 1:20:00 | 1:20:03 | |
by the bank and other creditors. In
one case am aware the alternative | 1:20:03 | 1:20:05 | |
payment arrangement was refused, it
was because the debt had been deemed | 1:20:05 | 1:20:08 | |
of being less than eight weeks. It
wasn't. The Jobcentre plus staff | 1:20:08 | 1:20:10 | |
were calculating the period as being
a 52 week period, whereas Trafford | 1:20:10 | 1:20:13 | |
housing staff can to the claims of a
48 week period. Broxtowe CAB told me | 1:20:13 | 1:20:19 | |
they were also concerned about
people who were on fluctuating rates | 1:20:19 | 1:20:23 | |
of ours and that those fluctuations
and the lack of good coordination | 1:20:23 | 1:20:27 | |
with HMRC is also causing problems
for people on low wages in receipt | 1:20:27 | 1:20:34 | |
of UC. I'm delighted that the right
honourable lady has raised that | 1:20:34 | 1:20:37 | |
point, as it brings me to my next
point. Problems arise with the | 1:20:37 | 1:20:42 | |
assessment period. I have one
constituent who, because of the | 1:20:42 | 1:20:51 | |
problems with the assessment period,
received two loss of wages in one | 1:20:51 | 1:20:54 | |
assessment period. Others have
received different payment in | 1:20:54 | 1:21:00 | |
different assessment periods. As a
result, her Universal Credit was | 1:21:00 | 1:21:04 | |
calculated as being zero in the
month in which she had received two | 1:21:04 | 1:21:08 | |
payments. The following month, she
received nothing. But by this time, | 1:21:08 | 1:21:12 | |
her claim had been cancelled. We
were told at the time that the | 1:21:12 | 1:21:18 | |
benefit was reduced that real-time
information with HMRC would sort out | 1:21:18 | 1:21:21 | |
this kind of problem. But they
didn't. It was a failure of her | 1:21:21 | 1:21:25 | |
employer to upload the data in time
that meant that real-time | 1:21:25 | 1:21:29 | |
information was an irrelevance
because the data wasn't there. In | 1:21:29 | 1:21:34 | |
other cases, we have seen
constituents being paid too early, | 1:21:34 | 1:21:38 | |
perhaps because their employer
advances payment before the | 1:21:38 | 1:21:40 | |
Christmas break, and then they lose
their award and the claim is | 1:21:40 | 1:21:44 | |
stopped. None of that is the fault
of the claimant, but the WP are | 1:21:44 | 1:21:48 | |
inflexible in their application of
these assessment periods. What are | 1:21:48 | 1:21:52 | |
ministers doing about this? Am told
now that S's case could have been | 1:21:52 | 1:21:58 | |
treated more flexibly, but I wasn't
but when I first read to the DWP and | 1:21:58 | 1:22:01 | |
it is now unclear to me and my
constituents what the position is. | 1:22:01 | 1:22:07 | |
Finally, can I do something about
problems relating to ESA. If they | 1:22:07 | 1:22:19 | |
make a request which goes to
tribunal, that TSA claim will be | 1:22:19 | 1:22:23 | |
cancelled and even if they win the
claim, it cannot be reinstated and | 1:22:23 | 1:22:26 | |
they are forced to remain on UC. My
understanding is that though was not | 1:22:26 | 1:22:30 | |
initially the case or the intention.
Claimants are not being told that | 1:22:30 | 1:22:34 | |
when a tribunal case starts, they
can have the reinstatement of their | 1:22:34 | 1:22:38 | |
ESA claim. So could the minister
address that point, because it is | 1:22:38 | 1:22:43 | |
putting further pressure on sick and
disabled claimants who ought to be | 1:22:43 | 1:22:46 | |
getting decent support from the
benefits system and are not? | 1:22:46 | 1:22:56 | |
When I was able privilege to hear
the maiden speech, but I also wants | 1:22:56 | 1:23:03 | |
to congratulate the member for
Birkenhead visit during this debate. | 1:23:03 | 1:23:06 | |
It was very interesting to hear what
he had to say today in the chamber | 1:23:06 | 1:23:12 | |
and that his constituents. The House
has debated Universal Credit | 1:23:12 | 1:23:16 | |
extensively over recent weeks and I
am proud to take part again today. | 1:23:16 | 1:23:19 | |
The principle of Universal Credit is
a very good one which the opposition | 1:23:19 | 1:23:24 | |
has said on many occasions that they
support. But I have been concerned | 1:23:24 | 1:23:28 | |
around the dialogue of the roll-out
of Universal Credit in the recent | 1:23:28 | 1:23:32 | |
weeks. I believe this has caused
much distress amongst potential | 1:23:32 | 1:23:36 | |
claimants and people who are waiting
to switch to Universal Credit. For | 1:23:36 | 1:23:40 | |
as long as I can remember, the
benefit system in this country has | 1:23:40 | 1:23:46 | |
been burdensome and complex. I have
lost count of the amount of people | 1:23:46 | 1:23:49 | |
who have had issues with working and
claiming benefits. Job-seeker | 1:23:49 | 1:23:56 | |
allowance, working tax credits and
so on. I have also lost count of the | 1:23:56 | 1:24:00 | |
number of people who have said there
must be a better way of doing | 1:24:00 | 1:24:04 | |
things. We do indeed want a welfare
system which supports the most | 1:24:04 | 1:24:10 | |
vulnerable and is also therefore
when people fall on hard times and | 1:24:10 | 1:24:17 | |
need help. And being made to claim
benefits of which need to be paid | 1:24:17 | 1:24:24 | |
back. The assumption is that this is
wrong, that individuals should not | 1:24:24 | 1:24:30 | |
have to pay back advanced payments
which are indeed loans without | 1:24:30 | 1:24:36 | |
interest. But will be very grateful
they received by the claimants when | 1:24:36 | 1:24:42 | |
they are in need of money due to the
situation in which they suddenly | 1:24:42 | 1:24:48 | |
find themselves. I am just wondering
what members have thought when I, | 1:24:48 | 1:24:52 | |
like many others, have been
confronted by constituents who have | 1:24:52 | 1:24:57 | |
received large bills from the DWP.
When there has been mistakes with | 1:24:57 | 1:25:02 | |
information given and where there
have been overpayments made when | 1:25:02 | 1:25:07 | |
claiming working tax credits. The
members believe that those claimants | 1:25:07 | 1:25:09 | |
should not have been paid back? With
the situation better than with | 1:25:09 | 1:25:17 | |
Universal Credit? There is also an
assumption that because of these | 1:25:17 | 1:25:19 | |
advance payments they will
automatically get into arrears with | 1:25:19 | 1:25:23 | |
their rent. Which will result in
them getting evicted. I can only | 1:25:23 | 1:25:31 | |
speak from my experience and from my
own constituency, and I do not have | 1:25:31 | 1:25:36 | |
any examples where people are being
evicted from their homes within six | 1:25:36 | 1:25:38 | |
weeks. In actual fact, I have seen
quite the opposite in these | 1:25:38 | 1:25:44 | |
situations. As we have heard before,
currently approximately 40% of | 1:25:44 | 1:25:50 | |
Universal Credit claimants are in
work and that number of people | 1:25:50 | 1:25:55 | |
moving into work once on universal
tax credit is increasing. Universal | 1:25:55 | 1:25:59 | |
tax credit is part of a welfare
reform which is needed and has been | 1:25:59 | 1:26:05 | |
designed to help people and move
more people into work. And for so | 1:26:05 | 1:26:13 | |
long many people have been trapped
in the benefit system, people who | 1:26:13 | 1:26:17 | |
want to work or work longer hours,
but the stress and complexity of | 1:26:17 | 1:26:22 | |
doing all this without the risk of
losing all their benefits in one go | 1:26:22 | 1:26:26 | |
and having to pay back large sums
when mistakes had been made due to | 1:26:26 | 1:26:30 | |
complexities in the current system.
I want, and I know my constituents | 1:26:30 | 1:26:36 | |
want, a system that helps people but
does not put people off taking | 1:26:36 | 1:26:41 | |
opportunities. I believe the system
will do. There are always things | 1:26:41 | 1:26:50 | |
that need to be improved once
instrumentation begins so I am | 1:26:50 | 1:26:53 | |
pleased that the Government has
taken care to do a gradually | 1:26:53 | 1:26:57 | |
roll-out of the nine years, moving
to 10% of the current claimant | 1:26:57 | 1:27:01 | |
accounts. The roll-out, in my
opinion, is being taken in a | 1:27:01 | 1:27:06 | |
measured and steady way, enabling
the Government to address issues. | 1:27:06 | 1:27:09 | |
Over recent weeks I had heard a
number of members say that Universal | 1:27:09 | 1:27:13 | |
Credit is getting people into debt
and causing people to get evicted. | 1:27:13 | 1:27:17 | |
This does concern me greatly. The
rationale is that Universal Credit | 1:27:17 | 1:27:22 | |
is paid in arrears and in principle
this is a good idea and does form | 1:27:22 | 1:27:29 | |
part of how we need to reform
welfare. I have been very concerned | 1:27:29 | 1:27:33 | |
with the accusations that this has
been done deliberately to | 1:27:33 | 1:27:35 | |
disadvantaged people when they are
in need of help and maybe at very | 1:27:35 | 1:27:40 | |
difficult times in their lives. In
all debates, ministers have been | 1:27:40 | 1:27:44 | |
very clear, people who need advance
payments will get them within five | 1:27:44 | 1:27:47 | |
days. In conclusion, I would hope
that the opposition, after today, do | 1:27:47 | 1:27:53 | |
work constructively with the
Government to try and increase and | 1:27:53 | 1:27:56 | |
help the roll-out. I am very pleased
to take part in this debate because | 1:27:56 | 1:28:05 | |
in my constituency 10,700 households
are going to be moved on to | 1:28:05 | 1:28:08 | |
Universal Credit. That is 21,000
people. That is almost one quarter | 1:28:08 | 1:28:12 | |
of my constituents. On December the
13th, new claims and change of | 1:28:12 | 1:28:18 | |
circumstances are going to be moved
across. Over Christmas, many people | 1:28:18 | 1:28:25 | |
will face a six week gap in their
income, not so much a Merry | 1:28:25 | 1:28:33 | |
Christmas, a Victorian Christmas
that even Scrooge did not think. | 1:28:33 | 1:28:36 | |
Ministers have banged on about
advance payments. Let's look at what | 1:28:36 | 1:28:40 | |
this means in practice. A single
disabled person with a £400 a month | 1:28:40 | 1:28:47 | |
payment takes an advance of £200 to
pay their rent. If all goes | 1:28:47 | 1:28:53 | |
according to plan, they will then
have their payment abated so that | 1:28:53 | 1:28:59 | |
their income over the next four and
a half months are 200, 320, 320, | 1:28:59 | 1:29:06 | |
360. In other words, instead of an
income of £1800 of the period, it is | 1:29:06 | 1:29:13 | |
£1200. It is not a weight, it is a
cut. Many will feel that over | 1:29:13 | 1:29:18 | |
Christmas it is the cruellest cut.
Seven years ago in my constituency | 1:29:18 | 1:29:24 | |
there were no food banks. After
seven years of Tory Government, we | 1:29:24 | 1:29:28 | |
have seven food banks. Previously,
Labour members have talked about the | 1:29:28 | 1:29:34 | |
need to address free school meals.
In my opinion every child in a | 1:29:34 | 1:29:40 | |
Universal Credit family should be
getting free school meals. But now | 1:29:40 | 1:29:45 | |
to add to the loss of income, in the
six-week period, children do not get | 1:29:45 | 1:29:49 | |
the free school meals either.
Ministers also talk about preparing | 1:29:49 | 1:29:54 | |
people for work. It is and in work
benefits. In my constituency, 4500 | 1:29:54 | 1:30:09 | |
households being moved over, that is
40%, are already in work and have | 1:30:09 | 1:30:13 | |
jobs. My understanding is that if
you have ever received free school | 1:30:13 | 1:30:21 | |
meals before being on benefits
before, you continue to receive | 1:30:21 | 1:30:26 | |
them. It is only if you are new to
the benefit system that there may be | 1:30:26 | 1:30:30 | |
a delay. That is not the case for
new claims and change of | 1:30:30 | 1:30:36 | |
circumstances. I am sorry to inform
the honourable lady. I am alarmed at | 1:30:36 | 1:30:40 | |
what is happening to win and in low
paid work. -- women. Many are trying | 1:30:40 | 1:30:48 | |
with great difficulty to do their
best to balance their need to earn | 1:30:48 | 1:30:54 | |
an income with their
responsibilities of collecting their | 1:30:54 | 1:30:57 | |
children from school and looking
after them properly. They may be | 1:30:57 | 1:31:01 | |
work 20 hours a week in order to get
the right balance. But the | 1:31:01 | 1:31:07 | |
Government is now going to employ
advisers to harass them to increase | 1:31:07 | 1:31:12 | |
their hours. When Labour was in
power we had different rules for | 1:31:12 | 1:31:16 | |
single parents then with other
families. It seems to me that what | 1:31:16 | 1:31:19 | |
this Government is trying to do is
not help lone parents, it is grind | 1:31:19 | 1:31:25 | |
them down and grind down their
children as well. Furthermore, the | 1:31:25 | 1:31:29 | |
situation of women fleeing domestic
violence is even worse. I am a | 1:31:29 | 1:31:39 | |
member under the Labour Government,
single mothers coming to me, unable | 1:31:39 | 1:31:43 | |
to continue work because they are
better off on benefits. -- I | 1:31:43 | 1:31:52 | |
remember. Does the honourable member
not agree that this system is to | 1:31:52 | 1:31:57 | |
help people to move into work? I'm
sorry, the honourable lady is | 1:31:57 | 1:32:03 | |
absolutely wrong. I looked through
the statutory instruments myself, | 1:32:03 | 1:32:06 | |
and when we left Government you were
always £40 a week better off in work | 1:32:06 | 1:32:13 | |
than not in work, and those are the
facts. Women fleeing domestic | 1:32:13 | 1:32:17 | |
violence are in an even worse
situation. When they arrived at the | 1:32:17 | 1:32:23 | |
refuge, they have to register their
change of address as a change of | 1:32:23 | 1:32:27 | |
circumstances, so they will be in
the vanguard of these people who are | 1:32:27 | 1:32:29 | |
going to have a six-week gap in
their income. They may even mean | 1:32:29 | 1:32:35 | |
that some of them don't flee violent
partners because they are worried | 1:32:35 | 1:32:38 | |
about the effect. In Bishop
Auckland, huge preparations are now | 1:32:38 | 1:32:44 | |
being made for the roll-out, the
council is employing more people, | 1:32:44 | 1:32:48 | |
their housing associations are
employing more people, unlike I'm | 1:32:48 | 1:32:52 | |
sorry to say, the job centres who
should be employing more people. The | 1:32:52 | 1:32:56 | |
housing association is increasing
its provisions for bad debt | 1:32:56 | 1:33:04 | |
fourfold. This means that money that
would have gone to building new | 1:33:04 | 1:33:07 | |
homes is now going to deal with this
Government induced crisis in the | 1:33:07 | 1:33:15 | |
housing system. Three months ago I
asked to go on one of the digital | 1:33:15 | 1:33:19 | |
courses to see how people are
supported by the Jobcentre. This is | 1:33:19 | 1:33:26 | |
a major issue in my constituency
because we had very bad broadband in | 1:33:26 | 1:33:31 | |
the oral areas and we have very high
levels of digital exclusion. | 1:33:31 | 1:33:35 | |
Ministers need to keep in mind, 5
million people in this country and | 1:33:35 | 1:33:40 | |
never sent an e-mail. These are
predominantly people on low incomes, | 1:33:40 | 1:33:44 | |
the very people who are affected by
this change over to Universal | 1:33:44 | 1:33:47 | |
Credit. We raised this with
ministers five years ago, it still | 1:33:47 | 1:33:51 | |
has not been sorted out. When you
make the claim, some single men | 1:33:51 | 1:33:56 | |
really done this were telling me,
you are timed out after 45 minutes | 1:33:56 | 1:34:02 | |
if you can't complete it. It is very
difficult to complete in that time | 1:34:02 | 1:34:05 | |
because there is no written guidance
telling you what documents you have | 1:34:05 | 1:34:09 | |
to produce and stand in. -- scan.
I'm not saying the only problems | 1:34:09 | 1:34:18 | |
with this are administrative. I
think there are fundamental problems | 1:34:18 | 1:34:21 | |
with Universal Credit. Number one of
which is that George Osborne took | 1:34:21 | 1:34:27 | |
£3.5 billion out of the system. The
problem is that the Government | 1:34:27 | 1:34:34 | |
refuses to recognise that people
need these payments. Because of that | 1:34:34 | 1:34:38 | |
refusal, the rents are too low, the
payment gaps are too long, the | 1:34:38 | 1:34:49 | |
tapers are too high. Let's fix the
system! I am now going to drop to | 1:34:49 | 1:34:55 | |
four minutes to make sure that
everyone time. It has interventions | 1:34:55 | 1:34:59 | |
that is killing it. I'm pleased to
have the opportunity to talk in this | 1:34:59 | 1:35:07 | |
debate. I have been looking at the
issue of Universal Credit, Proto | 1:35:07 | 1:35:11 | |
plans that Universal Credit going
about five years, it is a pleasure | 1:35:11 | 1:35:15 | |
to work with the right honourable
member he is a friend on the work | 1:35:15 | 1:35:21 | |
and pensions select committee on
this issue. To take us back to where | 1:35:21 | 1:35:24 | |
this all began and to take us back
to the reason why, in principle, we | 1:35:24 | 1:35:31 | |
have cross-party agreement on
Universal Credit, is that the system | 1:35:31 | 1:35:36 | |
we had before was not good enough.
It was set up with good intentions | 1:35:36 | 1:35:43 | |
and we know that it was a way of
trying to take people out of poverty | 1:35:43 | 1:35:46 | |
by giving them hand-outs. However,
in doing so, and the way it was set | 1:35:46 | 1:35:54 | |
up, it actually discouraged people
from taking more work. And inhibited | 1:35:54 | 1:36:00 | |
their ability to move on in life, to
improve this situation is and to | 1:36:00 | 1:36:04 | |
support their family. It was out of
that realisation that Universal | 1:36:04 | 1:36:08 | |
Credit was born. The desire to build
a welfare system that would slowly | 1:36:08 | 1:36:13 | |
remove benefits as people moved into
work. That is to say that it would | 1:36:13 | 1:36:17 | |
actively encourage people to take
more hours and be better off. And at | 1:36:17 | 1:36:22 | |
the same time to create a system in
which a world in a life out of work, | 1:36:22 | 1:36:28 | |
mirrored the life in work. That
means that you are in work to find | 1:36:28 | 1:36:34 | |
work, let's say there is an
expectation that you will look for | 1:36:34 | 1:36:37 | |
work, you will sign a contract for
that commitment. Your benefits will | 1:36:37 | 1:36:43 | |
be paid on a monthly basis so that
when you moved into work, if you | 1:36:43 | 1:36:47 | |
moved into monthly employment, you
would be ready for that. I cannot | 1:36:47 | 1:36:52 | |
accept the argument that is
sometimes made, that some people | 1:36:52 | 1:36:54 | |
will never be able to cope on
monthly payments. I feel that is | 1:36:54 | 1:36:58 | |
extremely insulting to many people
out there. I disagree with the | 1:36:58 | 1:37:04 | |
honourable lady, it is. What we now
have is a system coming into | 1:37:04 | 1:37:10 | |
being... You can shake your head but
it is true, it is insulting to | 1:37:10 | 1:37:14 | |
people to say they will never be
able to cope with monthly payments. | 1:37:14 | 1:37:18 | |
I challenge her to have that
conversation with many people who | 1:37:18 | 1:37:22 | |
are looking for work, because they
would be insulted by it. It is | 1:37:22 | 1:37:26 | |
unfortunate that she laughs at this,
because it is true. This is very | 1:37:26 | 1:37:33 | |
insulting way of carrying on! Anyone
can manage on a monthly payment that | 1:37:33 | 1:37:44 | |
is £2000 a month. But managing on a
monthly payment on £500 a month is | 1:37:44 | 1:37:48 | |
rather more difficult. The
honourable lady will recognise that | 1:37:48 | 1:37:52 | |
there are a lot of people who do
manage to do that. What we have | 1:37:52 | 1:37:56 | |
within Universal Credit... | 1:37:56 | 1:38:03 | |
I have had enough of this
opposition. Under the Universal | 1:38:03 | 1:38:09 | |
Credit system that we now have,
there is personal budgeting support | 1:38:09 | 1:38:15 | |
which no one on the other side of
the House has referred to which | 1:38:15 | 1:38:19 | |
offers money advice in order to help
people with a four week payment and | 1:38:19 | 1:38:24 | |
which also offers people alternative
payment arrangements so that they | 1:38:24 | 1:38:27 | |
can have their money paid direct to
their landlord. I am sorry to hear | 1:38:27 | 1:38:32 | |
that the member for Stratford found
that was not working well in her | 1:38:32 | 1:38:37 | |
Jobcentre. I have spoken to people
in my Jobcentre and I was pleased to | 1:38:37 | 1:38:41 | |
see that they were completely on top
of how that system worked. Within | 1:38:41 | 1:38:46 | |
Universal Credit, we do of course
have a lot of problems which have | 1:38:46 | 1:38:51 | |
been talked about which have
emanated from the long wait for | 1:38:51 | 1:38:56 | |
people coming into the system. At
the start of the process, there were | 1:38:56 | 1:39:01 | |
too many people waiting for too
long. It is something the select | 1:39:01 | 1:39:06 | |
committee's report has drawn on.
However, since that first phase, a | 1:39:06 | 1:39:10 | |
number of improvements have been
made. Within that, we have had the | 1:39:10 | 1:39:18 | |
landlord portal, which was
favourably received by people who | 1:39:18 | 1:39:20 | |
gave evidence to our committee,
saying it would help. We have also | 1:39:20 | 1:39:25 | |
seen the initial evidence interview,
the once and done process which | 1:39:25 | 1:39:29 | |
means that more information can be
brought into the system | 1:39:29 | 1:39:32 | |
straightaway. I say to the
honourable members opposite, you | 1:39:32 | 1:39:38 | |
cannot learn unless you test. I
thank my friend for giving way. He | 1:39:38 | 1:39:49 | |
is a great expert on this subject
and I would like to hear more of the | 1:39:49 | 1:39:53 | |
areas where he considers that we
have improved. If you don't want | 1:39:53 | 1:39:58 | |
people to speak, please say now,
because I can take them off the | 1:39:58 | 1:40:01 | |
list. That is what we are doing to
each other. I don't mind, but when | 1:40:01 | 1:40:05 | |
members don't get in, please realise
what is going on here. Thanks, Mr | 1:40:05 | 1:40:11 | |
Deputy Speaker. We are left now with
a system in which there is a | 1:40:11 | 1:40:16 | |
six-week wait for the initial
payment. It is worth reminding the | 1:40:16 | 1:40:22 | |
House why some of that exists. The
model of Universal Credit is about | 1:40:22 | 1:40:28 | |
having a month long assessment
period in which the system | 1:40:28 | 1:40:30 | |
understands how much you are earning
and adjusts your payments | 1:40:30 | 1:40:33 | |
accordingly. There must then be a
calculation time which works out how | 1:40:33 | 1:40:38 | |
much people are owed. At the moment,
that is a week, but when we met the | 1:40:38 | 1:40:44 | |
DWP head of Universal Credit, he
said they were working to bring that | 1:40:44 | 1:40:47 | |
down and it should be brought down
as a matter of urgency. At the other | 1:40:47 | 1:40:51 | |
end, we still have a weak's waiting
to. I don't disagree with the | 1:40:51 | 1:40:57 | |
government often, but my previous
colleagues in previous roles no that | 1:40:57 | 1:41:05 | |
I don't believe these waiting days
should exist. There have always been | 1:41:05 | 1:41:08 | |
a degree of waiting days in the
system, three days. But the | 1:41:08 | 1:41:15 | |
extension to four, which was not
made by this Secretary of State or | 1:41:15 | 1:41:19 | |
under this Chancellor of the
Exchequer, should not have been | 1:41:19 | 1:41:21 | |
introduced. That is why my committee
has called on the government to | 1:41:21 | 1:41:26 | |
remove those seven waiting days. We
should not be pausing the roll-out, | 1:41:26 | 1:41:33 | |
but we should be making this
adjustment. I was hoping to walk | 1:41:33 | 1:41:42 | |
this House irate timeline that what
this Hazard through the procedure of | 1:41:42 | 1:41:49 | |
receiving Universal Credit, but the
times not allow me to do that. In my | 1:41:49 | 1:41:52 | |
constituency, we have had a roll-out
for 12 months. This is the abridged | 1:41:52 | 1:41:55 | |
version. Based on what constituents
have told me first-hand, my | 1:41:55 | 1:42:01 | |
archetypal constituent, Miss Smith,
is 50 years old, married and lives | 1:42:01 | 1:42:07 | |
in Glasgow. She has been working in
a local shop and has left on health | 1:42:07 | 1:42:11 | |
grounds. She goes to a local
Jobcentre in Glasgow, only to find | 1:42:11 | 1:42:16 | |
it has been shot. She instead walks
the three miles to the Jobcentre -- | 1:42:16 | 1:42:21 | |
it has been shut, but no one could
advise her on the next Jobcentre on | 1:42:21 | 1:42:25 | |
which benefits she is entitled to.
She is told staff are benefits | 1:42:25 | 1:42:29 | |
trained they are not able to offer
options. Mrs Smith subsequently | 1:42:29 | 1:42:32 | |
learns of a Universal Credit advice
organisation. She applies on mine. | 1:42:32 | 1:42:38 | |
This would make Mrs Smith unlike the
50% of my constituents who say they | 1:42:38 | 1:42:45 | |
could not use a computer. Mrs Smith
lodges her application today, the | 1:42:45 | 1:42:50 | |
16th of November. By the 23rd of
November, she realises that though | 1:42:50 | 1:42:54 | |
her application has been lodged, it
is in fact the least another month | 1:42:54 | 1:42:58 | |
of waiting while the entitlement is
calculated. At this point, Mrs | 1:42:58 | 1:43:03 | |
Smith's remaining savings are used
up by rent, council tax, utility | 1:43:03 | 1:43:07 | |
bills, the usual things. Her husband
works and they have a low income and | 1:43:07 | 1:43:12 | |
there are now struggling. It is
worth remembering that in 2016, the | 1:43:12 | 1:43:16 | |
money advice service found that 16
million people in the UK had less | 1:43:16 | 1:43:23 | |
than £100 in savings. As November
presses on, Mrs Smith's situation | 1:43:23 | 1:43:28 | |
becomes more desperate as she had
underestimated the amount of time it | 1:43:28 | 1:43:30 | |
would take to receive support. This
story is based on real-life examples | 1:43:30 | 1:43:35 | |
that my constituents have brought to
me. People don't fall into Universal | 1:43:35 | 1:43:42 | |
Credit trend, they learn as they go
along. At the start of December, she | 1:43:42 | 1:43:45 | |
takes her granddaughter to the
movies using a credit card to pay. | 1:43:45 | 1:43:50 | |
She is accumulating debt. By
mid-December, she applies for a | 1:43:50 | 1:43:54 | |
crisis grant and visits a local food
bank. The constant pressure of | 1:43:54 | 1:43:59 | |
having no money begins to creep into
every facet of Mrs Smith's life. She | 1:43:59 | 1:44:04 | |
stressed and the relationship with
her husband is suffering. | 1:44:04 | 1:44:10 | |
Nonetheless, she gets her first
Universal Credit payment sometime | 1:44:10 | 1:44:12 | |
after the new year. Her husband is
paid weekly and coupled with | 1:44:12 | 1:44:17 | |
real-time income data, it means her
income fluctuates wildly as a | 1:44:17 | 1:44:22 | |
result. She is now locked into a
boom and bust cycle with Universal | 1:44:22 | 1:44:26 | |
Credit sometimes falling to almost
nothing, and waiting eight weeks | 1:44:26 | 1:44:33 | |
with one assessment period. So what
will the future hold for real | 1:44:33 | 1:44:36 | |
residents of Inverclyde apart from
uncertainty, stress and poverty | 1:44:36 | 1:44:40 | |
being inflicted on them by this
system? I am asking the UK | 1:44:40 | 1:44:44 | |
Government politely to not ignore
the overwhelming evidence that | 1:44:44 | 1:44:48 | |
Universal Credit is not working.
Saying the predecessor was not worse | 1:44:48 | 1:44:54 | |
does not help my constituents. The
roll-out must be halted. Take time | 1:44:54 | 1:45:01 | |
to reform the fundamental flaws in
Universal Credit and implement a | 1:45:01 | 1:45:06 | |
system that truly offers the
stability of which they can build | 1:45:06 | 1:45:09 | |
their lives. It is a pleasure to
speak in this debate and it was a | 1:45:09 | 1:45:18 | |
pleasure to listen to the maiden
speech of the honourable member for | 1:45:18 | 1:45:20 | |
Banff and Buchan. To be fair to her
predecessor, she managed to get me | 1:45:20 | 1:45:28 | |
into the same division lobby as the
Scottish National Party on the bill | 1:45:28 | 1:45:32 | |
she put through, which was very
welcome. I join him in wishing her | 1:45:32 | 1:45:37 | |
all the best for her future. It is
important to discuss Universal | 1:45:37 | 1:45:45 | |
Credit again, as it will have a
significant impact on my | 1:45:45 | 1:45:49 | |
constituency, as it has on others.
In having this debate, we have to be | 1:45:49 | 1:45:54 | |
careful not to make out that the
current system is fantastic. There | 1:45:54 | 1:46:00 | |
has always been an illogicality to
having a council system for some and | 1:46:00 | 1:46:05 | |
if it's like housing benefit and
council tax and then having the DWP | 1:46:05 | 1:46:08 | |
for income related benefits. When I
was deputy leader of a large council | 1:46:08 | 1:46:12 | |
in the Midlands, a lot of time had
to be devoted to administering | 1:46:12 | 1:46:16 | |
benefits which were national
benefits fundamentally. You couldn't | 1:46:16 | 1:46:19 | |
change any great policy about them.
It raised the question of why a | 1:46:19 | 1:46:26 | |
local council was getting involved
with the housing benefit element. In | 1:46:26 | 1:46:36 | |
terms of the principle of Universal
Credit, it is the right move. When | 1:46:36 | 1:46:41 | |
we look at the change from weekly to
monthly payments, we must also look | 1:46:41 | 1:46:47 | |
at the change that would make more
widely. The bunch of vultures at | 1:46:47 | 1:46:54 | |
Brad has advertised their payments
as being weekly, so they look | 1:46:54 | 1:46:57 | |
affordable. -- at BrightHouse. But
you have to look at the bigger | 1:46:57 | 1:47:03 | |
picture, which is always in tiny
writing. If it is weekly this much, | 1:47:03 | 1:47:07 | |
what it will finally cost you, is
that much. That might be something | 1:47:07 | 1:47:14 | |
which would bring home the costs of
what those appalling deals produce. | 1:47:14 | 1:47:21 | |
I welcome the fact that it is a
phased roll-out over nine years. | 1:47:21 | 1:47:26 | |
Many of us remember the system with
tax credits when it came in in one | 1:47:26 | 1:47:30 | |
go. The current issue with tax
credits is that because it is | 1:47:30 | 1:47:35 | |
administered with HMRC, it is dealt
with as if you are someone who has | 1:47:35 | 1:47:39 | |
underpaid tax, which is not
appropriate for those on low | 1:47:39 | 1:47:43 | |
incomes. Those expecting a tax bill
at the end of the year may make | 1:47:43 | 1:47:46 | |
provision for that. Somebody who
thought this was the amount of | 1:47:46 | 1:47:49 | |
benefit they had under a tax credit
system does not. In terms of its | 1:47:49 | 1:47:55 | |
roll-out into Torbay in 2018, my
team have been working with the DWP | 1:47:55 | 1:47:59 | |
for them to undertake training
around the system and respond to | 1:47:59 | 1:48:03 | |
constituent queries. I recognise
that there will be work with | 1:48:03 | 1:48:08 | |
partners. One of the affairs raised
by Don Dudley, a benefits adviser at | 1:48:08 | 1:48:15 | |
a great organisation in a deprived
area in my constituency, is looking | 1:48:15 | 1:48:19 | |
at the current delays there are
around appeals. He says if that | 1:48:19 | 1:48:25 | |
exists now, what reassurance can be
given to make sure similar problems | 1:48:25 | 1:48:30 | |
don't come into systems based
Universal Credit? I hope the | 1:48:30 | 1:48:37 | |
government is listening to these
issues around the six-week initial | 1:48:37 | 1:48:42 | |
word-macro. Asos regulation in the
press this week, being conscious | 1:48:42 | 1:48:45 | |
that we have the Budget next week --
I saw speculation in the press this | 1:48:45 | 1:48:51 | |
week. Perhaps the minister can
explain whether those with issues | 1:48:51 | 1:48:57 | |
can have their rent paid directly to
their landlord. This has been a | 1:48:57 | 1:49:00 | |
useful debate for the most part. It
is right that we continue to have | 1:49:00 | 1:49:04 | |
these so that we can ensure that
when the system does roll out to the | 1:49:04 | 1:49:08 | |
remaining 90% of claimants who are
not covered by the current roll-out, | 1:49:08 | 1:49:12 | |
it is a system that works well. I
thank the honourable member for | 1:49:12 | 1:49:19 | |
Birkenhead for bringing this debate
today and congratulate the | 1:49:19 | 1:49:22 | |
honourable member for Banff and
Buchan on his maiden speech. I note | 1:49:22 | 1:49:26 | |
that the compote of -- comparative
beauties or our constituencies are | 1:49:26 | 1:49:33 | |
yet another thing to disagree on in
this chamber. Inverness had the | 1:49:33 | 1:49:37 | |
pilot of Universal Credit in 2013. I
am always astounded by the length | 1:49:37 | 1:49:42 | |
that members who haven't experienced
Universal Credit go to to defend the | 1:49:42 | 1:49:46 | |
system, when they haven't actually
seen what has happened. I know that | 1:49:46 | 1:49:51 | |
the honourable member for South
Cambridgeshire, who is not in her | 1:49:51 | 1:49:54 | |
place at the moment, had said that
Jobcentre staff were now telling her | 1:49:54 | 1:49:59 | |
that Universal Credit was only 60%
built. That is since 2013, and we | 1:49:59 | 1:50:06 | |
have been feeling the impact locally
on a daily basis since that | 1:50:06 | 1:50:11 | |
inception. Make no mistake, you know
for the sole credit -- Universal | 1:50:11 | 1:50:18 | |
Credit, in its current form, without
being fixed, is a disaster. It is | 1:50:18 | 1:50:22 | |
only going to get worse. As it
grows, the resources to support it | 1:50:22 | 1:50:31 | |
are stretched further. I see members
opposite shaking their heads. They | 1:50:31 | 1:50:34 | |
have accused me previously
scaremongering. So I invited them | 1:50:34 | 1:50:42 | |
all and the minister and the Prime
Minister to come to a summit in | 1:50:42 | 1:50:46 | |
Inverness to hear from the agencies
and the people involved about the | 1:50:46 | 1:50:52 | |
problems being imposed on them. And
none took up the offer. They would | 1:50:52 | 1:50:57 | |
have heard harrowing stories. As I
tried to relate yesterday in my | 1:50:57 | 1:51:02 | |
question to the Prime Minister from
the agencies, but none of them did. | 1:51:02 | 1:51:07 | |
Instead when I raised that question
yesterday, there was laughter from | 1:51:07 | 1:51:11 | |
the benches opposite. It is recorded
and people can listen to that. I | 1:51:11 | 1:51:22 | |
would ask them, what is funny, the
fact that it is harrowing, the fact | 1:51:22 | 1:51:28 | |
that I was talking about cancer
patients who were dying before their | 1:51:28 | 1:51:31 | |
Universal Credit claims came
through, the fact that I was talking | 1:51:31 | 1:51:36 | |
about terminally ill people who have
to self declare their terminally -- | 1:51:36 | 1:51:43 | |
that they are terminally ill, even
if they have said to doctors that | 1:51:43 | 1:51:46 | |
they don't want to know their fate.
How cruel is that? And yet there was | 1:51:46 | 1:51:50 | |
laughter. Listen members opposite
are saying it was not that. Listen | 1:51:50 | 1:51:58 | |
to the question, and you will hear
it. If it was not any of those | 1:51:58 | 1:52:04 | |
things, was at the fact that we are
having problems in Inverness? The | 1:52:04 | 1:52:10 | |
manager of the local Citizens Advice
Bureau tweeted yesterday "It is sad | 1:52:10 | 1:52:15 | |
when the misery and suffering caused
by Universal Credit can be found so | 1:52:15 | 1:52:19 | |
amusing. I suggest they try it for a
few months". Mr Deputy Speaker, some | 1:52:19 | 1:52:27 | |
adjustment is available from the
Scottish Government, but Universal | 1:52:27 | 1:52:30 | |
Credit is reserved. And the constant
attempts to pass the buck and | 1:52:30 | 1:52:36 | |
abdicate responsibility for what is
the responsibility of the UK | 1:52:36 | 1:52:39 | |
Government is not good enough. | 1:52:39 | 1:52:46 | |
I want to try and cover this e-mail.
They say it is chaos causing him and | 1:52:46 | 1:52:53 | |
his colleagues. It is an
unacceptable. It is not fit for | 1:52:53 | 1:53:01 | |
purpose and people phone and begged
to be let out on the bottom of it, | 1:53:01 | 1:53:04 | |
but it is not possible. How long
before one of them threaten suicide? | 1:53:04 | 1:53:12 | |
There are too many issues with
Universal Credit and not enough time | 1:53:12 | 1:53:15 | |
to deal with it today. They need to
halt it and fix it. -- let back on | 1:53:15 | 1:53:21 | |
benefits. It is a pleasure to follow
many colleagues including my | 1:53:21 | 1:53:26 | |
honourable friend for Banff and
Buchan. This is my third time I've | 1:53:26 | 1:53:29 | |
spoken on Universal Credit. I will
give way. My honourable friend says | 1:53:29 | 1:53:36 | |
it is a pleasure to follow so many
speeches, but which she agree with | 1:53:36 | 1:53:40 | |
me that the speech she has just
followed in tone and manner has got | 1:53:40 | 1:53:44 | |
it completely wrong. There are
member is on both sides who want to | 1:53:44 | 1:53:47 | |
make this work. I know the member
opposite and I can assure him that | 1:53:47 | 1:53:53 | |
nobody here in these benches was
laughing at your comment. I would | 1:53:53 | 1:53:59 | |
also say that I have been...
Unfortunately I could not take up | 1:53:59 | 1:54:04 | |
his kind officer to go to Inverness.
I was busy in Redditch doing exactly | 1:54:04 | 1:54:10 | |
what he said, meeting the housing
providers in Redditch to make sure | 1:54:10 | 1:54:15 | |
that roll-out is going well.
Universal Credit is designed as an | 1:54:15 | 1:54:19 | |
agile system. I would just like to
make this point in the short time I | 1:54:19 | 1:54:24 | |
have. I used to work in software
development, so I understand what | 1:54:24 | 1:54:30 | |
this actually means in terms of
designing a very, very complicated | 1:54:30 | 1:54:34 | |
system that deals with individuals
and their very unique and different | 1:54:34 | 1:54:39 | |
circumstances. We have heard calls
from the members opposite to pause | 1:54:39 | 1:54:43 | |
the system. But I don't that would
actually fix the problems they have | 1:54:43 | 1:54:48 | |
identified. And they are right to
identify the problems and the | 1:54:48 | 1:54:52 | |
Minister has recognised there are
problems in the system. We all want | 1:54:52 | 1:54:55 | |
to work together to fix those. The
nature of an agile system is that it | 1:54:55 | 1:54:59 | |
changes all the time in response to
people using it. That is how he | 1:54:59 | 1:55:04 | |
learned and improve the system. We
have a releasing evidence of that. | 1:55:04 | 1:55:08 | |
The Prime Minister highlighted one
specific example yesterday in her | 1:55:08 | 1:55:11 | |
answer where she says, actually we
have seen the number of people who | 1:55:11 | 1:55:16 | |
are in arrears while they are on
Universal Credit already go down by | 1:55:16 | 1:55:20 | |
significant numbers in the last four
months. I think the number is a | 1:55:20 | 1:55:23 | |
third. That is evidence that this
system is improving as it is being | 1:55:23 | 1:55:27 | |
rolled out. It is a very slow
roll-out that is taking nine years | 1:55:27 | 1:55:32 | |
altogether. And I think we need to
recognise, just as we recognise that | 1:55:32 | 1:55:35 | |
there are issues that have been
rightly highlighted in this chamber, | 1:55:35 | 1:55:38 | |
I hope they are highlighted in a
serious fashion. It is also right to | 1:55:38 | 1:55:43 | |
recognise the real work and the
progress that the Government has | 1:55:43 | 1:55:46 | |
already done in addressing some of
the serious issues and I do hope | 1:55:46 | 1:55:49 | |
that they will do more as well. Now,
some of the members here have been | 1:55:49 | 1:55:54 | |
incredibly critical in their time
and I find that wrong in this | 1:55:54 | 1:56:00 | |
debate. This is a very serious
debate. We are here because we care | 1:56:00 | 1:56:07 | |
about our constituents. Now, I am a
very privileged person and I am the | 1:56:07 | 1:56:13 | |
first person to say that I have
never had to rely on benefits. I'm | 1:56:13 | 1:56:17 | |
sure that some of the members
opposite have not had to rely on | 1:56:17 | 1:56:20 | |
benefits either. But that does not
include any of this from having the | 1:56:20 | 1:56:25 | |
compassion and empathy are people
that are in that situation. That is | 1:56:25 | 1:56:28 | |
why I have been to my Jobcentre and
that is why I have spent a very long | 1:56:28 | 1:56:35 | |
time discussing with the social
landlords, the people that work in | 1:56:35 | 1:56:39 | |
debt counselling, and the staff in
the Jobcentre themselves. And I | 1:56:39 | 1:56:43 | |
don't actually recognise the stories
I have heard about the Jobcentres, | 1:56:43 | 1:56:50 | |
because in my constituency in
Redditch, I heard first-hand from | 1:56:50 | 1:56:55 | |
people in the Jobcentre working,
about how hard they are working to | 1:56:55 | 1:56:57 | |
support the most vulnerable
customers through their journeys and | 1:56:57 | 1:57:02 | |
they are proud to do that. They have
a policy there that they will give | 1:57:02 | 1:57:06 | |
those advance payments by default.
They are not forcing people to ask | 1:57:06 | 1:57:11 | |
for them, they are working hard on
an individual basis with a tailored | 1:57:11 | 1:57:15 | |
package of support, to every single
claimant. I have been on JFK and I | 1:57:15 | 1:57:22 | |
know what it is like -- jobseeker's
allowance. Universal Credit I'm | 1:57:22 | 1:57:31 | |
seeing on a daily basis... But we
know that children are suffering and | 1:57:31 | 1:57:37 | |
go hungry for weeks and that is the
testimony of people in this job | 1:57:37 | 1:57:41 | |
centres. I have no doubt that the
Minister will comment on that but | 1:57:41 | 1:57:48 | |
that is not the test me I heard
first-hand in my Jobcentre in | 1:57:48 | 1:57:52 | |
Redditch. They told me that they
care about their customers and want | 1:57:52 | 1:57:56 | |
to get the help they need and are
proud to provide that help to | 1:57:56 | 1:58:00 | |
people. I would just finished by
saying that I note that we have | 1:58:00 | 1:58:04 | |
heard about some of these landlords
that are sending landlords to their | 1:58:04 | 1:58:08 | |
tenants who are potentially going on
to Universal Credit. Really, I think | 1:58:08 | 1:58:13 | |
that is absolutely unacceptable
behaviour of those landlords, those | 1:58:13 | 1:58:18 | |
private landlords doing that. I
thank you it is very -- I think it | 1:58:18 | 1:58:23 | |
is very irresponsible to be raising
this issue from the privileged | 1:58:23 | 1:58:27 | |
position he has. I think it is
irresponsible to do that without | 1:58:27 | 1:58:32 | |
condemning that behaviour. That is
the behaviour he should be | 1:58:32 | 1:58:36 | |
condemning from those landlords.
There are also ways, just as we have | 1:58:36 | 1:58:42 | |
seen support for social landlords to
have those rent payments made | 1:58:42 | 1:58:49 | |
directly to the landlords, there is
also were going on within the | 1:58:49 | 1:58:53 | |
private rented sector ought to bring
that support to those tenants. We | 1:58:53 | 1:58:56 | |
must bring that support. She makes a
very valid point about the landlord | 1:58:56 | 1:59:03 | |
and indeed myself and the honourable
member in front of me will be | 1:59:03 | 1:59:09 | |
meeting with a social landlord
tomorrow. I do think it will be a | 1:59:09 | 1:59:12 | |
matter that in due course, ministers
but at the Holyrood level and at | 1:59:12 | 1:59:17 | |
Westminster should look at. I cannot
think of the modus operandi, it is | 1:59:17 | 1:59:20 | |
not the right to me at the state at
all. I will finish by saying that we | 1:59:20 | 1:59:27 | |
all work together proactively across
the entire system, that is very | 1:59:27 | 1:59:32 | |
important. Landlords of course have
a stake in this. They told me in | 1:59:32 | 1:59:39 | |
Redditch that yes people are in
arrears when they go in, that they | 1:59:39 | 1:59:41 | |
do not have a single case of people
being evicted. They will not be | 1:59:41 | 1:59:45 | |
evicting people, but instead they
will be putting the port in place | 1:59:45 | 1:59:48 | |
for those vulnerable tenants. If
what I read in the media is true, | 1:59:48 | 1:59:56 | |
then the Government are planning to
reduce the six-week wait to four | 1:59:56 | 2:00:00 | |
weeks. And I do hope the Minister
will be able to confirm this. | 2:00:00 | 2:00:05 | |
However, although this change is
welcome, it does not go far enough. | 2:00:05 | 2:00:11 | |
The single parent charity,
Gingerbread, I found that one third | 2:00:11 | 2:00:15 | |
of single parents were in debt
before Universal Credit. And when | 2:00:15 | 2:00:20 | |
parents were travelling, Universal
Credit puts them at risk of more | 2:00:20 | 2:00:26 | |
hardship. Gingerbread recommends
more, including a delay to a first | 2:00:26 | 2:00:33 | |
payment, including communication of
advance payments, introducing longer | 2:00:33 | 2:00:35 | |
repayment plans, and importantly,
removing options for fun at the | 2:00:35 | 2:00:42 | |
payments are those most in need.
Whilst I appreciate the intention | 2:00:42 | 2:00:45 | |
behind Universal Credit, that it is
to emulate the world of work with a | 2:00:45 | 2:00:51 | |
payment method which reflects the
manner in which monthly paid workers | 2:00:51 | 2:00:56 | |
are remunerated, I think we should
take a step back from this and | 2:00:56 | 2:00:59 | |
consider that many people in receipt
of Universal Credit are in dire | 2:00:59 | 2:01:03 | |
financial circumstances and that
perhaps trying to emulate the world | 2:01:03 | 2:01:08 | |
of work is just a shade too
ambitious for the second stanzas in | 2:01:08 | 2:01:12 | |
which many claimants find
themselves. -- circumstances. | 2:01:12 | 2:01:21 | |
Preparation for the world of work
could be incorporated into the | 2:01:21 | 2:01:27 | |
support services to reach laymen.
This can be tailored to each claim | 2:01:27 | 2:01:33 | |
on individual issues. Other
charities also recommend reducing | 2:01:33 | 2:01:35 | |
the current six-week wait for a
first payment to two weeks, such as | 2:01:35 | 2:01:43 | |
the child poverty action group and
the citizens advice bureau. I have | 2:01:43 | 2:01:47 | |
tabled several questions on
Universal Credit, and one of them | 2:01:47 | 2:01:49 | |
has consented an issue raised with
me by a CAD work in Hayward in my | 2:01:49 | 2:01:55 | |
constituency. It is that if they
Universal Credit claimant makes an | 2:01:55 | 2:02:00 | |
online application they must also
arrange an appointment with the | 2:02:00 | 2:02:02 | |
Jobcentre and a failure to do so in
invalidates that claim. Failure to | 2:02:02 | 2:02:10 | |
this is a very common reason for
applications decline. And so killing | 2:02:10 | 2:02:21 | |
the debt and despair that some
clients find themselves in. They | 2:02:21 | 2:02:23 | |
will soon be implementing the option
of a text message reminder and will | 2:02:23 | 2:02:28 | |
also be reviewing their requirements
on the online orientation processors | 2:02:28 | 2:02:36 | |
to make sure all the requirements
are as clear as possible for all | 2:02:36 | 2:02:39 | |
claimants. Another issue is that...
Is to replace that of working tax | 2:02:39 | 2:02:50 | |
credits to entitle children to free
school meals. The answer I received | 2:02:50 | 2:02:54 | |
from the department was that no
decision had yet been taken or | 2:02:54 | 2:02:57 | |
stopped and I cried, our proposals
on this matter will be announced in | 2:02:57 | 2:03:01 | |
due course. I -- quote. I hope the
Minister might be able to provide | 2:03:01 | 2:03:10 | |
some clarity on this. The Government
continually repeats its mantra of | 2:03:10 | 2:03:18 | |
test, learn, rectify. The question I
would ask is why do they feel it is | 2:03:18 | 2:03:22 | |
appropriate to carry out tests on
the most bon vulnerable in our | 2:03:22 | 2:03:36 | |
society. When are they starting to
rectify the damage it has a ready | 2:03:36 | 2:03:39 | |
been done? I begin by congratulating
my honourable friend and fellow | 2:03:39 | 2:03:46 | |
Scottish Conservative on his
excellent maiden speech. I also | 2:03:46 | 2:03:51 | |
express my appreciation to the
Minister of State for his | 2:03:51 | 2:03:54 | |
attentiveness and attentive to
detail is unsurpassed. To be clear, | 2:03:54 | 2:03:58 | |
I'm speaking as an avid supporter of
Universal Credit and someone fully | 2:03:58 | 2:04:04 | |
vested in the success of Universal
Credit in my constituency. I will | 2:04:04 | 2:04:08 | |
not rehearse the argument in favour
of welfare reform in general or | 2:04:08 | 2:04:14 | |
Universal Credit specifically. I
have already is broken twice on this | 2:04:14 | 2:04:16 | |
matter in recent weeks. Instead, I
wish to refer ruefully to certain | 2:04:16 | 2:04:20 | |
aspects of the select affairs
committee... The first matter I wish | 2:04:20 | 2:04:28 | |
to draw attention to is found on
page three producing a robust | 2:04:28 | 2:04:34 | |
statistical analysis on the impact
of Universal Credit. I endorse this. | 2:04:34 | 2:04:40 | |
When I asked a written question last
month about average times for | 2:04:40 | 2:04:43 | |
claimants waiting to receive their
first payments from completion of | 2:04:43 | 2:04:48 | |
the claims admission to Universal
Credit being paid into their bank | 2:04:48 | 2:04:51 | |
account, I was told we do not hold
this information. This is something | 2:04:51 | 2:04:56 | |
surprising to me as someone who
subscribes to the principle that | 2:04:56 | 2:05:00 | |
performance is measured and
performances improved. When | 2:05:00 | 2:05:04 | |
performance is measured and reported
back the rate of performance | 2:05:04 | 2:05:09 | |
improves is I am concerned about the
level of repayment. But the level of | 2:05:09 | 2:05:22 | |
repayment should consider matters
such as claimants existing benefits | 2:05:22 | 2:05:28 | |
and other debt repayments. I wonder
if they should not be a higher | 2:05:28 | 2:05:31 | |
minimum perhaps than which we
currently work with the low which | 2:05:31 | 2:05:35 | |
payments will not be extracted. I
had a case of a constituent that | 2:05:35 | 2:05:39 | |
after repayments was left with only
£61 for a month. Can there be some | 2:05:39 | 2:05:44 | |
additional discretion given to DWP
staff on repayments, especially when | 2:05:44 | 2:05:50 | |
our overpayments have occurred
especially due to acknowledge DWP | 2:05:50 | 2:05:54 | |
errors. The Government plan to
reduce the stand waiting time to one | 2:05:54 | 2:06:01 | |
month, and I concur with that
recommendation. I hope the Minister | 2:06:01 | 2:06:05 | |
will reflect on this recommendation.
Of course I accept that this comes | 2:06:05 | 2:06:08 | |
with a cost. These are budgetary
considerations and this is public | 2:06:08 | 2:06:14 | |
money which can't be spent twice.
But this is also a matter of | 2:06:14 | 2:06:17 | |
compassion. And experience of
sterling CAD is consistent with half | 2:06:17 | 2:06:27 | |
of middle income families have no
savings and less than half a month | 2:06:27 | 2:06:31 | |
's money. I continue to have
concerns about the application | 2:06:31 | 2:06:37 | |
process especially in rural areas,
online. And the difficulties that | 2:06:37 | 2:06:42 | |
applicants who are homeless and have
alcohol and drug addiction issues or | 2:06:42 | 2:06:50 | |
have no online facilities to make
claim or have mental health issues. | 2:06:50 | 2:06:54 | |
Anxiety and bipolar disorders. Is
there an application can be used in | 2:06:54 | 2:07:00 | |
extraordinary circumstances to help
address the needs of a small | 2:07:00 | 2:07:02 | |
minority of people who have genuine
anxiety about the digital system? I | 2:07:02 | 2:07:07 | |
would further ask the Minister did
consider allowing DWP staff to have | 2:07:07 | 2:07:12 | |
the option of having rent paid
directly to their landlord. I was so | 2:07:12 | 2:07:17 | |
asked if the Minister could consider
widening the circle of trusted | 2:07:17 | 2:07:24 | |
advisers, those who have direct
contact with WP staff to have | 2:07:24 | 2:07:29 | |
individual needs that can be
carefully managed. In closing, may I | 2:07:29 | 2:07:34 | |
speak of the regard and respect I
have the right honourable member of | 2:07:34 | 2:07:38 | |
Birkenhead and a member of his
select and asked the member to... | 2:07:38 | 2:07:47 | |
I will not take lessons from that
side about how angry we should be on | 2:07:47 | 2:07:50 | |
this issue. We are anticipating the
suffering, or we are experiencing | 2:07:50 | 2:07:56 | |
suffering in our communities. This
debate and all the expressions of | 2:07:56 | 2:08:00 | |
concern around the shambolic system
lead me to one question - what would | 2:08:00 | 2:08:04 | |
it take for the government to pause
this roll-out? When you have all of | 2:08:04 | 2:08:10 | |
the advice services, experts, local
authorities, housing associations, | 2:08:10 | 2:08:14 | |
private landlords and landlord
associations saying this system is | 2:08:14 | 2:08:16 | |
too riddled with problems to
continue with safety, and you still | 2:08:16 | 2:08:21 | |
choose to ignore their pleas, what
does it say about the people in | 2:08:21 | 2:08:25 | |
charge? This is an in work benefit
as much as it is an out of work | 2:08:25 | 2:08:31 | |
benefit. It is so predictable that
the Conservatives would use it a | 2:08:31 | 2:08:36 | |
dividing tactic, creating the
dangerous myth about those who can't | 2:08:36 | 2:08:39 | |
be bothered to work against those
who can, the strivers versus | 2:08:39 | 2:08:43 | |
shirkers rhetoric. Universal Credit
is about those who work as well as | 2:08:43 | 2:08:48 | |
not. If this government lasts, and
at the moment it appears as if it is | 2:08:48 | 2:08:54 | |
a big if, 7.2 million people will be
on Universal Credit by 2022. Half of | 2:08:54 | 2:09:00 | |
those will be in work. The system is
a scandal. There are too many issues | 2:09:00 | 2:09:09 | |
to raise, but I will highlight some
of the most important. The | 2:09:09 | 2:09:14 | |
word-macro has been mentioned.
People should not have to wait six | 2:09:14 | 2:09:18 | |
weeks. The system embeds financial
crisis from day one and if it is | 2:09:18 | 2:09:22 | |
announced in the Budget that there
will be a reduction in waiting time | 2:09:22 | 2:09:25 | |
by one week or even two, do not be
surprised if there are not cheers | 2:09:25 | 2:09:31 | |
all celebrations from the
organisations supporting people, | 2:09:31 | 2:09:33 | |
because they know it is only a
government tactic to release | 2:09:33 | 2:09:36 | |
political pressure on themselves.
Let's move on to the other problems. | 2:09:36 | 2:09:41 | |
Advance payments are not a solution.
They are calculated at 50% of the | 2:09:41 | 2:09:47 | |
claimant's entire amount and they
have to be repaid in six months and | 2:09:47 | 2:09:51 | |
they exacerbate debt. Was she give
way? Absolutely not! The enhanced | 2:09:51 | 2:10:00 | |
disability premium is callous and
part of a wider agenda of reducing | 2:10:00 | 2:10:05 | |
the welfare budget and will lead to
disabled people being worse off. | 2:10:05 | 2:10:11 | |
Direct payment of the claimant or
creating rent arrears. As of | 2:10:11 | 2:10:16 | |
yesterday, a company in my
constituency said 75% of people on | 2:10:16 | 2:10:21 | |
Universal Credit are already on rent
arrears of £810, because the wait | 2:10:21 | 2:10:29 | |
period and the financial demands on
my constituents are too high. Rent | 2:10:29 | 2:10:33 | |
is paid in advance, Universal Credit
in arrears. Not to mention the | 2:10:33 | 2:10:39 | |
issues about those who are
terminally ill having to go to the | 2:10:39 | 2:10:42 | |
Jobcentre themselves because they
will not give explicit content. I am | 2:10:42 | 2:10:48 | |
deeply concerned that the government
is rolling this out in my | 2:10:48 | 2:10:51 | |
constituency on the 13th of
December. The expected this payment | 2:10:51 | 2:10:56 | |
is the 28th of January. Who said
this roll-out date? Why did this get | 2:10:56 | 2:11:01 | |
signed off? These points are just
the headlines. I could go on and on | 2:11:01 | 2:11:05 | |
about the serious flaws of Universal
Credit. The government have had all | 2:11:05 | 2:11:09 | |
of the warning they need. They are
now choosing to inflict | 2:11:09 | 2:11:15 | |
Frankenstein's monster of a system
with little or no regard for the | 2:11:15 | 2:11:18 | |
well-being of people up and down
this country. I do not know how | 2:11:18 | 2:11:22 | |
people rolling this out sleep at
night. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I | 2:11:22 | 2:11:33 | |
welcome the constructive comments
from both sides of the House about | 2:11:33 | 2:11:36 | |
Universal Credit. I have set up an
all-party group to work with members | 2:11:36 | 2:11:40 | |
on all sides of the house and I
welcome those with concerns on every | 2:11:40 | 2:11:45 | |
bench joining that group so that we
can look seriously at all the | 2:11:45 | 2:11:49 | |
problems that are besetting
Universal Credit. I'm afraid the | 2:11:49 | 2:11:53 | |
six-week wait is just the start. It
is the start of a horrendous time | 2:11:53 | 2:11:59 | |
for anyone claiming Universal
Credit. It covers housing costs. In | 2:11:59 | 2:12:04 | |
my constituency, local housing
allowance for a three bedroomed | 2:12:04 | 2:12:06 | |
house for a family is £150 a week.
You get a seven-day weight where you | 2:12:06 | 2:12:12 | |
get no payments, so that is £150
down to start with. It is paid in | 2:12:12 | 2:12:18 | |
arrears. Your rent is paid in
advance, as honourable friends have | 2:12:18 | 2:12:22 | |
said. So you are £750 in arrears
before you even start receiving your | 2:12:22 | 2:12:28 | |
Universal Credit. That is wrong and
that is where all these arrears are | 2:12:28 | 2:12:32 | |
coming from. It is not people on low
pay who can't manage, it is a system | 2:12:32 | 2:12:37 | |
that doesn't take account of the
realities of their lives. When I | 2:12:37 | 2:12:43 | |
mentioned the six-week wait to the
minister on Monday and pointed out | 2:12:43 | 2:12:46 | |
that it was six weeks from Monday
until Christmas Day, that those who | 2:12:46 | 2:12:52 | |
are receiving Universal Credit who
are applying for it this week we'll | 2:12:52 | 2:12:55 | |
have to wait over six weeks, till
after Christmas, before receiving | 2:12:55 | 2:13:01 | |
their payment, they will have just
two weeks of pay to get by on over | 2:13:01 | 2:13:06 | |
those six weeks. Services will not
be open over Christmas. I appreciate | 2:13:06 | 2:13:12 | |
that the government want to wait for
a Budget in order to take action, | 2:13:12 | 2:13:17 | |
but people who are waiting for money
over Christmas, families who will be | 2:13:17 | 2:13:21 | |
able to afford no sort of Christmas,
need the government to act now and | 2:13:21 | 2:13:28 | |
to make sure they can receive the
payments they need to feed their | 2:13:28 | 2:13:32 | |
children and give them a decent
Christmas. When I asked the minister | 2:13:32 | 2:13:37 | |
this question on Monday, he
suggested that people could get more | 2:13:37 | 2:13:41 | |
hours of work in the run-up to
Christmas. And there are many | 2:13:41 | 2:13:45 | |
employers who are seeking additional
people to do overtime. Having worked | 2:13:45 | 2:13:50 | |
for many years for the shop workers
union, I can testify that lots of | 2:13:50 | 2:13:54 | |
people rely on their overtime in the
run-up to Christmas. Under tax | 2:13:54 | 2:13:59 | |
credit system is, that is perfectly
reasonable. They receive the pay | 2:13:59 | 2:14:02 | |
that they get of the day, because
there is an income disregard in tax | 2:14:02 | 2:14:07 | |
credits, whereas if your income is
increased for £50 a week on average, | 2:14:07 | 2:14:13 | |
you don't lose any tax credits.
There is nothing of that sort under | 2:14:13 | 2:14:18 | |
Universal Credit. For every pound
you earn extra in overtime under | 2:14:18 | 2:14:22 | |
Universal Credit, you lose at least
63p off your next Universal Credit | 2:14:22 | 2:14:30 | |
payment. Families who go into doing
overtime in good faith, as advised | 2:14:30 | 2:14:34 | |
by the minister, will find that next
month, their Universal Credit | 2:14:34 | 2:14:38 | |
payments will be falling by 63% or
even 75% of the overtime they have | 2:14:38 | 2:14:46 | |
earned by the time they get their
next Universal Credit payment. That | 2:14:46 | 2:14:51 | |
does not help them cover the costs
of Christmas. It does not help them | 2:14:51 | 2:14:55 | |
stay out of debt. I am suggesting
that you reduce the taper rate and | 2:14:55 | 2:15:09 | |
pay attention to the realities of
people's lives under a monthly | 2:15:09 | 2:15:13 | |
benefit system that hates them hard
as soon as they earn any extra. That | 2:15:13 | 2:15:19 | |
is an earnings disincentive and that
is what we have at the moment that | 2:15:19 | 2:15:23 | |
government must look at and make
sure that passporting benefits come | 2:15:23 | 2:15:26 | |
to everyone. Order. Neil Coyle.
Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is the | 2:15:26 | 2:15:35 | |
start of the work on this matter.
Universal Credit has been a | 2:15:35 | 2:15:42 | |
disaster. Anyone who looks at the
original plan cannot conclude | 2:15:42 | 2:15:46 | |
anything other. It should have been
finished being rolled out this year. | 2:15:46 | 2:15:51 | |
Instead, it reaches 10% but has done
£10,000 of damage to those affected. | 2:15:51 | 2:15:55 | |
It has cost more, delivered yes and
it was always intended to cut help | 2:15:55 | 2:16:00 | |
for 450,000 disabled people through
accessing the disability premium and | 2:16:00 | 2:16:09 | |
making DLA Pip less generous for
disabled people in work and disabled | 2:16:09 | 2:16:13 | |
children. That was the intention and
it has been made less generous | 2:16:13 | 2:16:15 | |
since. The pretence has gone
smoothly and needs debunking. | 2:16:15 | 2:16:20 | |
Instead of listening, the government
has doubled down. They told us it | 2:16:20 | 2:16:23 | |
was tickety-boo a few weeks ago.
They said they didn't need to pause. | 2:16:23 | 2:16:29 | |
Then they didn't vote on it
themselves because they know it is | 2:16:29 | 2:16:32 | |
failing. They then published last
week. They revealed that short-term | 2:16:32 | 2:16:38 | |
supported housing is not compatible
with Universal Credit. They cannot | 2:16:38 | 2:16:42 | |
work together. The systems cannot
coalesce. They have yet to outline | 2:16:42 | 2:16:47 | |
how the structural incompatibility
will be changed. My home in | 2:16:47 | 2:16:50 | |
Southwark has been affected by
Universal Credit, being a test area. | 2:16:50 | 2:16:53 | |
I refer people every week to my food
bank. They have seen a third more | 2:16:53 | 2:16:57 | |
people this year and they have seen
a crippling of the children needing | 2:16:57 | 2:17:00 | |
help from the food bank due to
Universal Credit being extended to | 2:17:00 | 2:17:03 | |
parents. They have seen a tripling
of the children needing help. My | 2:17:03 | 2:17:09 | |
counsel has faced £6 million worth
of arrears from Universal Credit | 2:17:09 | 2:17:12 | |
recipient. The myth that people are
carrying arrears in debt over from | 2:17:12 | 2:17:16 | |
other systems is untrue. The average
housing benefit tenant on Universal | 2:17:16 | 2:17:23 | |
Credit is now £108 in arrears. Other
problems need to be fixed, including | 2:17:23 | 2:17:32 | |
tackling problems with payment
amounts. We have heard about | 2:17:32 | 2:17:35 | |
real-time information is. The
government also needs to make clear | 2:17:35 | 2:17:41 | |
payment options including
fortnightly payments. It needs to | 2:17:41 | 2:17:45 | |
make alternative payment
arrangements for some groups. It | 2:17:45 | 2:17:47 | |
needs to allow councils greater
management control. It needs to | 2:17:47 | 2:17:51 | |
maintain payments for people moving
on to Universal Credit from housing | 2:17:51 | 2:17:56 | |
credit and remove the seven-day
waiting time, which is an art icon. | 2:17:56 | 2:18:00 | |
Ministers have had the chance to fix
these issues and a few weeks ago | 2:18:00 | 2:18:02 | |
they denied the opportunity to do
that, which means that anyone trying | 2:18:02 | 2:18:07 | |
to claim Universal Credit today will
see Boxing Day before they get a | 2:18:07 | 2:18:11 | |
penny of support. Father Christmas
will arrive before any support. And | 2:18:11 | 2:18:16 | |
for some still, because of the
delays, the Easter bunny is likely | 2:18:16 | 2:18:19 | |
to arrive before they get a penny of
help from this government. I don't | 2:18:19 | 2:18:24 | |
believe in the Easter bunny, for the
record. But I am optimistic about | 2:18:24 | 2:18:28 | |
Father Christmas appearing to be in
the form of the minister offering an | 2:18:28 | 2:18:31 | |
early Christmas present and
announcing that he will tackle | 2:18:31 | 2:18:33 | |
delays in payments and will resolve
the other problems with Universal | 2:18:33 | 2:18:37 | |
Credit. I congratulate the
honourable member for Birkenhead on | 2:18:37 | 2:18:46 | |
highlighting some of the deeply
rooted problems with the accelerated | 2:18:46 | 2:18:50 | |
roll-out of Universal Credit. It is
however indicative of this | 2:18:50 | 2:18:55 | |
government's complete disregard that
we find ourselves debating this | 2:18:55 | 2:18:57 | |
again. I want to highlight the
notable contributions of honourable | 2:18:57 | 2:19:04 | |
and right honourable members. Of
course, the honourable member for | 2:19:04 | 2:19:08 | |
Birkenhead, my honourable friends
from Glasgow South West, Inverclyde | 2:19:08 | 2:19:17 | |
and elsewhere. I also commend the
opposition members for Great Grimsby | 2:19:17 | 2:19:23 | |
and North West Durham and Bishop
Auckland for their passionate calls | 2:19:23 | 2:19:25 | |
to pause this and fix the system.
And I congratulate the honourable | 2:19:25 | 2:19:32 | |
member for Banff and Buchan for his
kind words for a colleague and | 2:19:32 | 2:19:35 | |
friend. And the most beautiful part
of the country is of course my | 2:19:35 | 2:19:42 | |
constituency. Mr Deputy Speaker,
elements of Universal Credit have | 2:19:42 | 2:19:45 | |
been live in my constituency for
some time, but we moved to the first | 2:19:45 | 2:19:49 | |
full service last month. In past
debates, the government have said | 2:19:49 | 2:19:53 | |
that Universal Credit will work for
those requiring support. But if that | 2:19:53 | 2:19:58 | |
is the case, why has my local
authority, South Lanarkshire | 2:19:58 | 2:20:02 | |
Council, had to move almost 1.5
million from their revenue account | 2:20:02 | 2:20:06 | |
into the welfare mitigation fund?
The reason for that is to keep a | 2:20:06 | 2:20:11 | |
roof over people's heads who are
falling into rent arrears as a | 2:20:11 | 2:20:14 | |
result of Universal Credit. It was
this government and the previous | 2:20:14 | 2:20:20 | |
Tory government's right to buy
policy, coupled with a failure to | 2:20:20 | 2:20:24 | |
replace housing stock which has
decimated social housing provision | 2:20:24 | 2:20:28 | |
across the UK. That money would be
better spent building council houses | 2:20:28 | 2:20:32 | |
on supporting people and their
tenancies and improving existing | 2:20:32 | 2:20:37 | |
housing. I have repeatedly called on
this government to halt the roll-out | 2:20:37 | 2:20:41 | |
and fix the problems with Universal
Credit. As the minister got a | 2:20:41 | 2:20:46 | |
hearing problem? Forgive me. If you
are not hearing correctly, let me | 2:20:46 | 2:20:52 | |
say again that it is necessary for
you to halt the run-up to the | 2:20:52 | 2:20:56 | |
problems have been ironed out.
Everyone across this House has told | 2:20:56 | 2:20:59 | |
you that there are problems. Some
members opposite have not yet | 2:20:59 | 2:21:03 | |
experienced the problems and
therefore are not able to speak with | 2:21:03 | 2:21:07 | |
a great degree of authority. Let me
assure you, the problems are stark | 2:21:07 | 2:21:11 | |
and they will fall on your doorsteps
in your constituency offices as they | 2:21:11 | 2:21:15 | |
have in ours. I have repeatedly
called on the government to halt | 2:21:15 | 2:21:20 | |
this and fix it, and yet I find
myself today asking once more for | 2:21:20 | 2:21:24 | |
the same thing. At best, the
government may row back on that, | 2:21:24 | 2:21:27 | |
reduce the waiting times and improve
the circumstances slightly. But this | 2:21:27 | 2:21:32 | |
is a flawed policy and if you admit
that today and concede that there | 2:21:32 | 2:21:37 | |
are problems, why not hold it and
fix it properly? I even invited the | 2:21:37 | 2:21:42 | |
Prime Minister to visit my
constituency on a number of | 2:21:42 | 2:21:45 | |
occasions to see first-hand the
damage. But this invitation has been | 2:21:45 | 2:21:49 | |
ignored. Despite this, the roll-out
has gone ahead and the number of | 2:21:49 | 2:21:53 | |
people in crisis due to the complex
problems has gone up and up. These | 2:21:53 | 2:21:59 | |
have included my own constituents,
who have had -- one of whom has had | 2:21:59 | 2:22:04 | |
to wait 12 weeks for payments. Some
who have received payments without | 2:22:04 | 2:22:08 | |
the housing cost to which they are
entitled. Some have been forced to | 2:22:08 | 2:22:12 | |
register as homeless. In my last
debate, I heard the honourable | 2:22:12 | 2:22:16 | |
member opposite state that Universal
Credit will end the days of private | 2:22:16 | 2:22:20 | |
landlords discriminating against
social security claimants. He said, | 2:22:20 | 2:22:23 | |
gone are the days of the signs
outside estate agents reading "No | 2:22:23 | 2:22:30 | |
DSS need apply". Let me tell all of
the members opposite that that could | 2:22:30 | 2:22:33 | |
not be further from the truth.
Private landlords, unsure if they | 2:22:33 | 2:22:38 | |
will be guaranteed the rental
income, are evicting people across | 2:22:38 | 2:22:41 | |
south Lanarkshire simply because
they are in receipt of Universal | 2:22:41 | 2:22:44 | |
Credit. The housing list in my area,
already sizeable, has been added to | 2:22:44 | 2:22:51 | |
by this poorly executed policy.
These failures are unacceptable and | 2:22:51 | 2:22:54 | |
for the social security system which
is meant to stop people falling | 2:22:54 | 2:22:58 | |
through the cracks in society, that
is exactly what is ensuring it is | 2:22:58 | 2:23:02 | |
doing and failing to address these
problems is only pushing people | 2:23:02 | 2:23:06 | |
further into homelessness and
poverty. | 2:23:06 | 2:23:11 | |
It's worth looking back at the
initial design of Universal Credit | 2:23:11 | 2:23:15 | |
and comparing it to where we stand
just now. When the universe that | 2:23:15 | 2:23:19 | |
credit was introduced in 2013, it
promised to lift 350,000 children | 2:23:19 | 2:23:26 | |
and 600,000 adults out of poverty.
How is that working out for us? It | 2:23:26 | 2:23:31 | |
was promised it would increase
entitlements and improve rewards for | 2:23:31 | 2:23:34 | |
those who earned from work. It would
allow smooth transitions in and out | 2:23:34 | 2:23:39 | |
of work, as claimants would not have
to claim a different set of benefits | 2:23:39 | 2:23:42 | |
when starting or ending jobs. Remind
me, how is that working out for us? | 2:23:42 | 2:23:48 | |
Problems are apparent now which were
not mentioned in 2013. Design flaws | 2:23:48 | 2:23:53 | |
like this six-week waiting time were
unknown, they are known now is what | 2:23:53 | 2:23:56 | |
are you going to survive a month and
a half with nothing to live on. The | 2:23:56 | 2:24:05 | |
right honourable member that
originally was involved in the | 2:24:05 | 2:24:09 | |
interception and creation of this
policy proudly tell journalists at | 2:24:09 | 2:24:16 | |
the time that he could live on £53 a
week. I wonder if he could live on | 2:24:16 | 2:24:21 | |
fresh air for six weeks? Mr Deputy
Speaker, for many of my | 2:24:21 | 2:24:26 | |
constituents, Universal Credit has
meant falling into debt traps, | 2:24:26 | 2:24:31 | |
taking out loans, advances through
the Department for Work and | 2:24:31 | 2:24:34 | |
Pensions, only later to have the
cash removed from them from their | 2:24:34 | 2:24:37 | |
already meagre payments. This is the
reality of your roll-out of | 2:24:37 | 2:24:42 | |
Universal Credit. What is this
government going to do about it? But | 2:24:42 | 2:24:46 | |
even though we have pointed out that
many added problems with your system | 2:24:46 | 2:24:52 | |
I'm still waiting on the now forced
to debate to hear anything come back | 2:24:52 | 2:24:55 | |
from this government. And if today,
as that the Government will, you | 2:24:55 | 2:24:59 | |
make a small advancement, that in
itself is an admission the system is | 2:24:59 | 2:25:03 | |
not working and it is time to halt
the roll-out. | 2:25:03 | 2:25:07 | |
Even then, and on many occasions, we
have stood here and told you the | 2:25:07 | 2:25:12 | |
problems. Your own honourable
members and backbenchers failing in | 2:25:12 | 2:25:17 | |
their measures to scrutinise it,
failed to accept there are problems | 2:25:17 | 2:25:21 | |
with this roll out and have ignored
this. Each and every time my | 2:25:21 | 2:25:24 | |
honourable friend has met with
Citizens Advice he has been informed | 2:25:24 | 2:25:30 | |
that they themselves are not allowed
to perform the role of advocacy | 2:25:30 | 2:25:34 | |
because they are not mandated to
make representations on behalf of | 2:25:34 | 2:25:37 | |
clients. This is a clear attempt to
undermine support available to | 2:25:37 | 2:25:41 | |
people to ensure they get the
support they receive. And worse than | 2:25:41 | 2:25:46 | |
that, my own constituent, who has
had to wait 12 weeks before his | 2:25:46 | 2:25:50 | |
Universal Credit payment came
through, even though his changing | 2:25:50 | 2:25:53 | |
circumstances well outside his
control, the DWP had not uploaded | 2:25:53 | 2:25:59 | |
documents he had originally sent to
them for his claim. When these | 2:25:59 | 2:26:04 | |
documents were finally attached to
his file, some weeks later, it was | 2:26:04 | 2:26:08 | |
discovered. It was a further six
weeks to be added to his waiting | 2:26:08 | 2:26:11 | |
time. That is the reality of
Universal Credit. What will the | 2:26:11 | 2:26:15 | |
Minister do to resolve that issue?
The fact is, I'm asking the Minister | 2:26:15 | 2:26:20 | |
in this... Does he accept... I will,
he will have his time. Of course the | 2:26:20 | 2:26:26 | |
Minister will have his time to
answer, he has plenty of time. If | 2:26:26 | 2:26:30 | |
you admit today there are problems
with the system... I will. Universal | 2:26:30 | 2:26:36 | |
Credit is not fit for purpose,
people are suffering and it is time | 2:26:36 | 2:26:39 | |
for the Minister, I urge the
Minister to hold the roll-out and | 2:26:39 | 2:26:42 | |
fix the problems. Thank you. Can I
start by congratulating the member | 2:26:42 | 2:26:51 | |
for making his maiden speech. He has
shown his commitment to his | 2:26:51 | 2:26:55 | |
constituency and I also thought it
was very kind of the new member to | 2:26:55 | 2:27:01 | |
praise his predecessor, and I also
extend my good wishes to her. | 2:27:01 | 2:27:10 | |
There have been some outstanding
contributions to what has been, | 2:27:10 | 2:27:13 | |
shall we say, a fiery debate. I
would like to first of all | 2:27:13 | 2:27:19 | |
congratulate my right honourable
friend, the chairman of work and | 2:27:19 | 2:27:23 | |
pensions select committee, first of
all this is cheering today's debate | 2:27:23 | 2:27:26 | |
but also on the select committee's
very timely report around the week | 2:27:26 | 2:27:31 | |
wait for Universal Credit. I would
also like to congratulate my | 2:27:31 | 2:27:36 | |
honourable friend, the member for
Stratford, an excellent speech. From | 2:27:36 | 2:27:43 | |
Bishop Auckland, from North West
Durham, from High Peak, Bermondsey | 2:27:43 | 2:27:48 | |
in Southwark, and members from
Glasgow South West and Lanark and | 2:27:48 | 2:27:56 | |
East Hamilton. And also the member
for Stirling. A sensitive and | 2:27:56 | 2:28:09 | |
analytical approach to the report on
what needed to happen in a very | 2:28:09 | 2:28:12 | |
measured way. And of course, the
member for South Cambridgeshire, who | 2:28:12 | 2:28:17 | |
was characteristically... She's not
in her place at the moment they gave | 2:28:17 | 2:28:20 | |
a characteristically bold speech.
Mr Deputy Speaker, this is the third | 2:28:20 | 2:28:25 | |
debate we have had an Universal
Credit in the last month. Today, as | 2:28:25 | 2:28:29 | |
with the previous two debate, the
Government has been called upon to | 2:28:29 | 2:28:33 | |
reduce a six-week waiting period
applicants face. As we have heard, | 2:28:33 | 2:28:39 | |
this is believed to be one of the
primary drivers of the rising debt | 2:28:39 | 2:28:43 | |
and arrears we are now seeing. 49%
of families who are in arrears and | 2:28:43 | 2:28:48 | |
the Universal Credit state that
their arrears started after they | 2:28:48 | 2:28:51 | |
made that claim, because the waiting
times to receive payments, support | 2:28:51 | 2:28:57 | |
being delayed. Or administrative
errors. On Monday, the chairman of | 2:28:57 | 2:29:02 | |
the backbench business committee to
this house social housing providers | 2:29:02 | 2:29:08 | |
across the North of England are
finding more and more of their | 2:29:08 | 2:29:13 | |
tenants are going into rent arrears.
The total debt of 10,500 claimants. | 2:29:13 | 2:29:24 | |
In Greater Manchester, where
Universal Credit was first piloted, | 2:29:24 | 2:29:26 | |
the average arrears for these
tenants is £824, compared with £451 | 2:29:26 | 2:29:36 | |
for non-UC tenants. In London it's
even worse, and we've heard from | 2:29:36 | 2:29:41 | |
councils such as Southwark, who
estimate an average arrears of £1700 | 2:29:41 | 2:29:47 | |
per UC ten. What about the private
rented sector? We have heard some of | 2:29:47 | 2:29:53 | |
the real issues that have been faced
about pre-emptive strikes regarding | 2:29:53 | 2:29:58 | |
tenancy agreements. I have a
landlord who contacted me concerned | 2:29:58 | 2:30:03 | |
about his tenants who are thousands
of pounds in rent arrears and they | 2:30:03 | 2:30:07 | |
never had been in previous arrears.
So, a reduction to the six-week wait | 2:30:07 | 2:30:14 | |
would be a good start. I look
forward to the Minister's response | 2:30:14 | 2:30:18 | |
about that. I was disappointed, I
have to say, as I think the Speaker | 2:30:18 | 2:30:22 | |
was, when we heard certain
revelations in the media yesterday, | 2:30:22 | 2:30:28 | |
and I do hope that he will be able
to enlighten asked as to whether | 2:30:28 | 2:30:31 | |
this is going, the reduction in the
weight is one more two weeks. As I | 2:30:31 | 2:30:38 | |
said, reducing the six-week waiting
time is only a start, it does not | 2:30:38 | 2:30:42 | |
address the significant design
issues that we have seen since the | 2:30:42 | 2:30:46 | |
start. For example, the monthly
payment being made in arrears, | 2:30:46 | 2:30:51 | |
following a monthly assessment
period, where most people in receipt | 2:30:51 | 2:30:54 | |
of UC are paid fortnightly or
monthly. The payment being made to | 2:30:54 | 2:30:58 | |
the main owner of the household,
predominantly men, rent being paid | 2:30:58 | 2:31:02 | |
to the claimant rather than the
landlord, self-employed people being | 2:31:02 | 2:31:06 | |
subject to the punitive minimum
income floor, which fails to reflect | 2:31:06 | 2:31:09 | |
the reality of the peaks and troughs
in their working hours. The | 2:31:09 | 2:31:14 | |
real-time information flaws, the
right honourable member for West Ham | 2:31:14 | 2:31:17 | |
as mentioned in the past, and for
which there is no time limit to | 2:31:17 | 2:31:22 | |
disputes leading to more delays in
payments. And, of course, in terms | 2:31:22 | 2:31:26 | |
of in work conditionality, meaning 1
million working people visiting | 2:31:26 | 2:31:33 | |
Jobcentres, while much of the Job
Centre plus estate is being closed | 2:31:33 | 2:31:37 | |
and facing financial sanctions if
they fail to work the hours the job | 2:31:37 | 2:31:41 | |
coach Dean 's famous.
In addition, reducing the waiting | 2:31:41 | 2:31:44 | |
time doesn't tackle the chronic
issues with implementation and | 2:31:44 | 2:31:48 | |
functionality. A pregnant woman got
in touch with me when her change in | 2:31:48 | 2:31:54 | |
circumstances meant she had to apply
for Universal Credit when her Jay | 2:31:54 | 2:32:00 | |
O'Shea claim is closed. She couldn't
apply online was given a number to | 2:32:00 | 2:32:04 | |
call and then another one and then
another one and was finally referred | 2:32:04 | 2:32:07 | |
back to the original number. To say
training is needed is an | 2:32:07 | 2:32:10 | |
understatement. My honourable friend
mentioned yesterday at Prime | 2:32:10 | 2:32:14 | |
Minister's Questions the ridiculous
position of one of their | 2:32:14 | 2:32:18 | |
constituents who didn't have photo
ID and had to have identification | 2:32:18 | 2:32:23 | |
verified by their doctor instead.
Rather than accepting the | 2:32:23 | 2:32:30 | |
identification from the legacy
benefits they had previously been | 2:32:30 | 2:32:32 | |
on. The issues with Ross claims and
so on and on. The recent Social | 2:32:32 | 2:32:37 | |
Security advisory committee report
on in work progression highlights | 2:32:37 | 2:32:41 | |
these issues in its section on
getting delivery right. There is no | 2:32:41 | 2:32:44 | |
getting away from the fact that the
system is complex and is more than | 2:32:44 | 2:32:48 | |
struggling to cope, which isn't
helped by the simultaneous closure | 2:32:48 | 2:32:53 | |
of one in ten Jobcentre pluss. But
it must be recognised, the objective | 2:32:53 | 2:32:59 | |
for simplicity should be for ease
and access, of access and navigation | 2:32:59 | 2:33:04 | |
of the system by claimants. This is
still not happening and must be | 2:33:04 | 2:33:07 | |
addressed.
I'm pleased that the Government | 2:33:07 | 2:33:12 | |
exceeded the need for Freedom phone
numbers and I would be grateful as | 2:33:12 | 2:33:15 | |
to when those will actually be up
and running. -- for free phone | 2:33:15 | 2:33:20 | |
numbers. But we know much more is
needed. And then there are the cuts | 2:33:20 | 2:33:25 | |
that were wielded to Universal
Credit in the 2015 summer budget. As | 2:33:25 | 2:33:31 | |
the Institute for Fiscal Studies
said at the time, it means that the | 2:33:31 | 2:33:34 | |
promise that work would always pay a
primary objective of Universal | 2:33:34 | 2:33:40 | |
Credit, has been lost. So just to
remind us of what these cuts were, | 2:33:40 | 2:33:44 | |
cuts to work around this, for
example meaning a couple with two | 2:33:44 | 2:33:48 | |
children claiming housing costs
would have 180, £192 a month, down | 2:33:48 | 2:33:57 | |
from £222 a month. Cuts to nearly 1
million families with more than two | 2:33:57 | 2:34:02 | |
children, because of the two child
limit. Cuts to disabled people, when | 2:34:02 | 2:34:08 | |
they transferred onto UC's Limited
capacity to work. And the freeze in | 2:34:08 | 2:34:13 | |
the operating of Universal Credit to
take into account of inflation. | 2:34:13 | 2:34:20 | |
These cuts will see 3 million
families as much as £2600 a year | 2:34:20 | 2:34:25 | |
worse off. For some is even worse.
For example, in real a single parent | 2:34:25 | 2:34:32 | |
with two children working as a
full-time teacher will be £3700 a | 2:34:32 | 2:34:38 | |
year worse off. The cumulative
effect of these cuts to UC will see | 2:34:38 | 2:34:41 | |
more working age people and their
children pushed into poverty. The | 2:34:41 | 2:34:45 | |
child poverty action group has
estimated by 2022 nearly an | 2:34:45 | 2:34:49 | |
additional 1 million children will
be pushed into poverty, 300,000 of | 2:34:49 | 2:34:54 | |
those under the age of five and they
will be accompanied by 900,000 | 2:34:54 | 2:34:57 | |
adults. So while reducing the
waiting period is a start, it will | 2:34:57 | 2:35:01 | |
not be sufficient to stop rising
debt, arrears and worse. Labour has | 2:35:01 | 2:35:07 | |
called for UC to be paused last is
fixed. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I | 2:35:07 | 2:35:12 | |
have said before, in addition to
reducing the six-week wait we won | 2:35:12 | 2:35:18 | |
all claimants to be able to decide
if they want fortnightly or monthly | 2:35:18 | 2:35:21 | |
payments, if they want payment split
in the household and if they want | 2:35:21 | 2:35:25 | |
their housing payment to be paid
directly to the landlord. | 2:35:25 | 2:35:29 | |
Fundamentally, we want investment in
Universal Credit to ensure work does | 2:35:29 | 2:35:32 | |
always pay and that children and
young people are not being pushed | 2:35:32 | 2:35:35 | |
into poverty, left destitute or
worse. | 2:35:35 | 2:35:39 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, nearly a
million people set to move on to | 2:35:39 | 2:35:41 | |
Universal Credit over the winter,
the budget gives the Government an | 2:35:41 | 2:35:45 | |
opportunity to deliver on their
promise to make this country work | 2:35:45 | 2:35:48 | |
for everyone. I hope they take it.
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I | 2:35:48 | 2:35:58 | |
would like to congratulate the right
honourable gentleman from Birkenhead | 2:35:58 | 2:36:02 | |
for securing this important debate
today and also thank members from | 2:36:02 | 2:36:06 | |
across the House from what I think
has been a good and constructive | 2:36:06 | 2:36:08 | |
debate. Unfortunately, my time is
now extremely short but I will try | 2:36:08 | 2:36:12 | |
and respond to as much as I can.
I particularly wanted to mention the | 2:36:12 | 2:36:17 | |
absolutely outstanding speech from
our honourable friend from Banff and | 2:36:17 | 2:36:21 | |
Buchan in what was his maiden
speech. He paid tribute to his | 2:36:21 | 2:36:27 | |
predecessor and spoke about how he
was focused on securing the best | 2:36:27 | 2:36:29 | |
Brexit and how important that is the
business in his constituency, | 2:36:29 | 2:36:35 | |
particular run fishing and farming
and talked about some of the other | 2:36:35 | 2:36:38 | |
opportunities for the future around
oil and gas and tourism. He painted | 2:36:38 | 2:36:42 | |
very colourful picture of his
constituency for all, and what a | 2:36:42 | 2:36:45 | |
wonderful place it would be to live.
Clearly he is going to be a great | 2:36:45 | 2:36:49 | |
asset to this house and to our
democracy. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | 2:36:49 | 2:36:53 | |
must say that the accents from his
particular part of Scotland are | 2:36:53 | 2:36:58 | |
always rich and characterful but
they sound so much better when come | 2:36:58 | 2:37:00 | |
from this direction. Universal
Credit has been the subject of a | 2:37:00 | 2:37:10 | |
number of debates over recent weeks
but it remains important not to lose | 2:37:10 | 2:37:14 | |
sight of why this vital reform is
needed and the key principles behind | 2:37:14 | 2:37:16 | |
it. Which my honourable friend from
Brentford and longer -- Brentwood | 2:37:16 | 2:37:23 | |
and longer outlined. If you do a
minimum amount of work, you would | 2:37:23 | 2:37:28 | |
have to go through the upheaval of
changing to a different benefit | 2:37:28 | 2:37:31 | |
system. For some people on
jobseeker's allowance, that can | 2:37:31 | 2:37:34 | |
deter them from taking on seasonal
work, for example, or a trial | 2:37:34 | 2:37:38 | |
position. The obstacles to starting
work are stronger for people with | 2:37:38 | 2:37:45 | |
disabilities on EFA. In EFA you can
only do so-called committed work of | 2:37:45 | 2:37:49 | |
up to £120 a week. In Universal
Credit there is no permitted work | 2:37:49 | 2:37:52 | |
because work is permitted. You don't
have to make a choice between | 2:37:52 | 2:37:57 | |
starting a career and getting that
support through the benefit system. | 2:37:57 | 2:38:05 | |
As my honourable friend from Torbay
said, Universal Credit simplify the | 2:38:05 | 2:38:09 | |
system permits six benefits into
one, asking people to deal with one | 2:38:09 | 2:38:13 | |
part of government instead of three.
Paid monthly in arrears, like most | 2:38:13 | 2:38:17 | |
jobs these days. Allowing claimants
to structure expenditure about a | 2:38:17 | 2:38:22 | |
monthly fixed payments. My
honourable friend from mid Dorset | 2:38:22 | 2:38:26 | |
asked me if I would outline how many
people these days are paid | 2:38:26 | 2:38:31 | |
fortnightly, the answer is around 3%
of people. The majority paid | 2:38:31 | 2:38:35 | |
monthly. A sizeable minority paid
four weekly. Still a lot of people | 2:38:35 | 2:38:41 | |
paid weekly. 70% of people paid
monthly or four weekly. The | 2:38:41 | 2:38:50 | |
month-long assessment period start
straightaway transferring from | 2:38:50 | 2:38:53 | |
another benefit. And members of
certain vulnerable groups. For newly | 2:38:53 | 2:38:57 | |
unemployed people, eligibility over
the assessment period starts seven | 2:38:57 | 2:39:01 | |
days later. These waiting days
reflect the principal benefit | 2:39:01 | 2:39:06 | |
support is not intended to cover
very short periods of unemployment. | 2:39:06 | 2:39:10 | |
Of course they exist in Allowance as
well. The monthly in arrears payment | 2:39:10 | 2:39:16 | |
cycle is fundamental to the design
of Universal Credit. It means your | 2:39:16 | 2:39:21 | |
benefit payment each month can
reflect on what you learned in that | 2:39:21 | 2:39:24 | |
month, taking into account all the
different patterns we have been | 2:39:24 | 2:39:27 | |
through. In which different people
are paid. Beyond the month-long | 2:39:27 | 2:39:33 | |
assessment period, there is a
further time of up to a week. Final | 2:39:33 | 2:39:38 | |
calculation, verification and making
the actual payments. All DWP payment | 2:39:38 | 2:39:43 | |
benefits, including Universal Credit
are made using the BACS system. | 2:39:43 | 2:39:52 | |
Which takes three days to process. A
person's first due date will be | 2:39:52 | 2:39:59 | |
seven days after their first
assessment. Subsequent play dates | 2:39:59 | 2:40:02 | |
will be on the same date each month
thereafter. The payday falls in the | 2:40:02 | 2:40:11 | |
we can come if we brought forward to
the nearest working day. Three days | 2:40:16 | 2:40:20 | |
for calculation and BACS processing,
four days to allow for the fact your | 2:40:20 | 2:40:27 | |
payment due date might come on
Saturday, Sunday or bank holiday, to | 2:40:27 | 2:40:31 | |
then allow us to pay the claim ahead
of that due date. If you are leaving | 2:40:31 | 2:40:37 | |
a job, you will of course normally
have your final pay packet and some | 2:40:37 | 2:40:43 | |
will have redundancy pay. If you are
moving on to Universal Credit from | 2:40:43 | 2:40:45 | |
another benefit from a paid
fortnightly in arrears, you will of | 2:40:45 | 2:40:51 | |
course have your final payment from
that benefit. We do realise of | 2:40:51 | 2:40:57 | |
course, that different people's
circumstances vary, and advances are | 2:40:57 | 2:41:00 | |
therefore available. My honourable
friends from Redditch and West | 2:41:00 | 2:41:05 | |
Aberdeen is share reminded us, that
may one meagre five or six weeks | 2:41:05 | 2:41:10 | |
without money. You can get an
advance payment of up to half your | 2:41:10 | 2:41:14 | |
indicative award regrouped over six
months, or as we are reminded in | 2:41:14 | 2:41:19 | |
some cases, it can be longer.
Advances are available, paid within | 2:41:19 | 2:41:23 | |
five working days, and in emergency
can be paid on that same day. These | 2:41:23 | 2:41:29 | |
advances are not like low-income in
the sense they are not interest | 2:41:29 | 2:41:35 | |
payable, and they're not like wage
advance, they do not get taken fully | 2:41:35 | 2:41:38 | |
to your first wage packet. I must
stress, and it is worth repeating, | 2:41:38 | 2:41:44 | |
the Universal Credit payment cycle
is monthly, with the payments made | 2:41:44 | 2:41:47 | |
on the same day each month, unless
that date falls on a Saturday, | 2:41:47 | 2:41:51 | |
Sunday or bank holiday, in which
case the payment would be advanced | 2:41:51 | 2:41:55 | |
to the nearest working day. This
monthly assessment is a much better | 2:41:55 | 2:42:00 | |
system than tax credits. Which works
on estimates, and often involves big | 2:42:00 | 2:42:08 | |
adjustments at the end of the year.
Including requiring people to pay | 2:42:08 | 2:42:12 | |
back sometimes large sums which have
already been paid to them. And that | 2:42:12 | 2:42:17 | |
they may have already spent, as my
honourable friend for Rochester and | 2:42:17 | 2:42:26 | |
Strood out as advice. It removes the
need to slip in that way, from one | 2:42:26 | 2:42:31 | |
benefit to another. And then back
again. Three separate peer-reviewed | 2:42:31 | 2:42:36 | |
studies showed people are more
likely to be work after six months | 2:42:36 | 2:42:39 | |
if they are on Universal Credit,
matched samples comparing people | 2:42:39 | 2:42:48 | |
similar in respect, apart from the
benefits they were wrong. My | 2:42:48 | 2:42:51 | |
honourable friend from Stirling
asked about direct payment of rent. | 2:42:51 | 2:42:54 | |
It was since the then Labour's
reforms that people in the private | 2:42:54 | 2:43:03 | |
rented sector handle their own rent.
Universal Credit extends that to | 2:43:03 | 2:43:08 | |
people renting from cancel Housing
Association. We can pay direct. A | 2:43:08 | 2:43:16 | |
sizeable amount of people in
Universal Credit have had that | 2:43:16 | 2:43:18 | |
arrangement set up. We are setting
up processes to make rent payment | 2:43:18 | 2:43:23 | |
direct where appropriate. Through
the trust and Partner status and | 2:43:23 | 2:43:26 | |
also with private renters. We are
also able, as the honourable lady | 2:43:26 | 2:43:31 | |
was just asking, able to make
payments more frequently than | 2:43:31 | 2:43:35 | |
monthly, fortnightly, and indeed
weekly when that is necessary. We | 2:43:35 | 2:43:38 | |
can split payments between members
of a couple. Universal Credit is a | 2:43:38 | 2:43:43 | |
vital reform are changing how we
support people out of work and in | 2:43:43 | 2:43:47 | |
work, how we help them progress from
one into the other. It is a lot of | 2:43:47 | 2:43:54 | |
change. New ways of working with
partners. That brings challenges. We | 2:43:54 | 2:43:59 | |
will continue that, Mr Speaker, to
work with claimants, stakeholders, | 2:43:59 | 2:44:04 | |
partners, with honourable and write
honourable | 2:44:04 | 2:44:13 | |
-- right honourable friends. It is
being introduced at a measured pace, | 2:44:19 | 2:44:26 | |
over nine years, in between last
month in January, it will go from | 2:44:26 | 2:44:31 | |
covering 8% of the benefits claiming
population up to 10%. Gradual, | 2:44:31 | 2:44:36 | |
careful approach, with planned
pauses, to learn and respond to | 2:44:36 | 2:44:39 | |
issues as they arrive. It means we
can continually adjust and evolve | 2:44:39 | 2:44:44 | |
appropriately. It is the biggest
monetisation of the welfare state in | 2:44:44 | 2:44:47 | |
more than a generation. Already
Universal Credit is transforming | 2:44:47 | 2:44:51 | |
lives, and we are determined to see
this reform. Madam Deputy Speaker, | 2:44:51 | 2:45:00 | |
everybody that has spoken today from
either side, both sides of the House | 2:45:00 | 2:45:03 | |
have called on the government to
move. And to change their approach. | 2:45:03 | 2:45:08 | |
Instead of inviting us to attend to
our job centres, I will be writing | 2:45:08 | 2:45:14 | |
to the Secretary of State and the
Minister of State inviting him to | 2:45:14 | 2:45:19 | |
come with us to the six worst
blackspots, how Universal Credit is | 2:45:19 | 2:45:27 | |
affecting people's lives, and to do
so before the budget. The question | 2:45:27 | 2:45:34 | |
is as on the order paper. As many as
are of the opinion, say "aye". To | 2:45:34 | 2:45:38 | |
the contrary, "no". | 2:45:38 | 2:45:49 | |
The ayes have it. Point of order, Mr
Field. I'm wishing to seek your | 2:45:49 | 2:45:54 | |
advice. This recommendation to
McGovern has been passed | 2:45:54 | 2:45:56 | |
unanimously. How might I ask the
Secretary of State to come before | 2:45:56 | 2:46:02 | |
the House on Monday and respond to
this unanimous recommendation we | 2:46:02 | 2:46:06 | |
have made, to begin the reform of
Universal Credit, so that some of | 2:46:06 | 2:46:11 | |
our constituents might have slightly
better Christmases than they might | 2:46:11 | 2:46:15 | |
otherwise get. I thank the
honourable gentleman for his point. | 2:46:15 | 2:46:20 | |
I understand why he wishes the
Secretary of State to come to the | 2:46:20 | 2:46:26 | |
House, but the Minister has just
been before the House addressing | 2:46:26 | 2:46:30 | |
those very points. I'm quite sure
the Secretary of State will know to | 2:46:30 | 2:46:37 | |
what has been said in the House this
afternoon, and note the request from | 2:46:37 | 2:46:41 | |
the honourable gentleman. Further to
the point of order. The Minister of | 2:46:41 | 2:46:46 | |
State, bless him, seriously, he's an
incredibly good guy when made his | 2:46:46 | 2:46:57 | |
speech before we had made a
collective decision. We are a mini | 2:46:57 | 2:47:00 | |
position. The whole House has
unanimously asked the government to | 2:47:00 | 2:47:04 | |
move. That is what I want is secular
state to address on Monday. I thank | 2:47:04 | 2:47:10 | |
the honourable gentleman for making
his point. He knows it is not a | 2:47:10 | 2:47:13 | |
matter for me, and the Minister is,
as the honourable gentleman pointed | 2:47:13 | 2:47:18 | |
out, sitting at the dispatch box.
I'm quite sure he and the Secretary | 2:47:18 | 2:47:22 | |
of State will pay attention to the
point that the honourable gentleman, | 2:47:22 | 2:47:26 | |
and indeed, all honorary members
have made this afternoon. We now | 2:47:26 | 2:47:34 | |
come to the backbench debate on
defence aerospace industry strategy. | 2:47:34 | 2:47:43 | |
Come on, everybody leaving lead
quickly. Not fair, there is to very | 2:47:43 | 2:47:50 | |
little time left. I'd venture to me
that this House need to consider | 2:47:50 | 2:47:55 | |
them need for a defence aerospace
industrial strategy. I must quickly | 2:47:55 | 2:48:00 | |
thank the backbench committee for
allocating this time in the House. | 2:48:00 | 2:48:06 | |
Can I thank my honourable friend the
honourable member from Whitney for | 2:48:06 | 2:48:12 | |
co-sponsoring this debate? Madam
Deputy Speaker, I'm sure you'll | 2:48:12 | 2:48:14 | |
agree the calibre members here on a
Thursday afternoon is a testament to | 2:48:14 | 2:48:19 | |
the importance this House places on
our ministry and having the right | 2:48:19 | 2:48:27 | |
kit. Our debate on the matter is
timely. This month we mark the 100th | 2:48:27 | 2:48:33 | |
anniversary of the creation of the
RAF. He remains fitting we should | 2:48:33 | 2:48:37 | |
recognise the fundamental role that
our domestic defence aerospace | 2:48:37 | 2:48:43 | |
sector has played in maintaining our
country aerial supremacy for | 2:48:43 | 2:48:45 | |
generations. Just last weekend, all
of us here today, along with | 2:48:45 | 2:48:50 | |
millions of British citizens
gathered across the country to | 2:48:50 | 2:48:53 | |
commemorate the courage and the
sacrifice of those men and women who | 2:48:53 | 2:48:57 | |
have served in our Armed Forces, to
protect our country. What we | 2:48:57 | 2:49:02 | |
remember those who have fallen, we
must honour those currently in | 2:49:02 | 2:49:06 | |
uniform. Their dedication, skill and
bravery is demonstrated every day, | 2:49:06 | 2:49:12 | |
in every corner of the world. These
efforts are exemplified by almost | 2:49:12 | 2:49:17 | |
1350 service personnel currently
supporting operation Shader. RAF | 2:49:17 | 2:49:25 | |
tornadoes and typhoons partook in
operations against Daesh. Destroying | 2:49:25 | 2:49:33 | |
Daesh stockpiles, and armoured truck
bombs. Against this most barbaric | 2:49:33 | 2:49:42 | |
and ideological opponent, British
support has a vital role striking | 2:49:42 | 2:49:47 | |
Daesh 184 times in Iraq, 262 times
in Syria. The men and women of our | 2:49:47 | 2:49:53 | |
RAF, and our entire Armed Forces
serve the coverage and distinction. | 2:49:53 | 2:49:57 | |
But they do not operate in
isolation. They require the | 2:49:57 | 2:50:01 | |
platforms and weapons do their job.
And without collateral damage as is | 2:50:01 | 2:50:07 | |
possible. The military success
depends on the technology and the | 2:50:07 | 2:50:10 | |
weaponry we can bring to bear.
Crucially for this debate, on the | 2:50:10 | 2:50:15 | |
wider defence family. Which
develops, designs, and manufactures, | 2:50:15 | 2:50:20 | |
and maintains it. I am delighted
that members of the defence | 2:50:20 | 2:50:25 | |
aerospace industry from the GMB,
from Brough are here today. The men | 2:50:25 | 2:50:38 | |
and women who develop these
industries, note that the lives of | 2:50:38 | 2:50:42 | |
many women that serve depend on
them. When our Armed Forces are | 2:50:42 | 2:50:51 | |
deployed, the brave service
personnel need to have what they | 2:50:51 | 2:50:53 | |
need and to get the job done, to
keep us safe. They recognise their | 2:50:53 | 2:50:57 | |
role in defending our country, the
question today, do we? Importantly, | 2:50:57 | 2:51:02 | |
do the government? Madam Debbie de
Speaker, I maintain it is the | 2:51:02 | 2:51:07 | |
defence family and the inventors,
engineers, tradesmen and | 2:51:07 | 2:51:12 | |
technicians, fitters and
fabricators, who have built Britain | 2:51:12 | 2:51:16 | |
but I defence industry into a world
leader, sustaining our sovereign | 2:51:16 | 2:51:21 | |
capability in a world where such
strength has never been more vital. | 2:51:21 | 2:51:24 | |
It is that very defence family which
I fear is being sold short by the | 2:51:24 | 2:51:28 | |
government. Especially in the
aerospace sector. Unless we address | 2:51:28 | 2:51:32 | |
this now. The situation will become
even more challenging in a | 2:51:32 | 2:51:36 | |
post-Brexit world. Simply put, in
order to insure our sovereignty | 2:51:36 | 2:51:41 | |
debility post-Brexit, we need to
develop a defence aerospace | 2:51:41 | 2:51:45 | |
industrial strategy now, to protect
our domestic skills mix. The | 2:51:45 | 2:51:51 | |
government have recognised this need
in our maritime defence sector with | 2:51:51 | 2:51:54 | |
a national ship building strategy.
All we're asking for today is that | 2:51:54 | 2:51:58 | |
the same generosity be applied to
the defence aerospace sector, to | 2:51:58 | 2:52:02 | |
give the sector and the workforce
some stability for the next | 2:52:02 | 2:52:07 | |
generation. Madam Deputy Speaker,
this is not beyond us. It is | 2:52:07 | 2:52:12 | |
industry has developed iconic
aircraft as the Cork, the Harrier, | 2:52:12 | 2:52:17 | |
the Tornado and Typhoon. Before we
touch on our helicopters. | 2:52:17 | 2:52:24 | |
We have earned our place as a global
leader in the manufacture of | 2:52:24 | 2:52:30 | |
aircraft but it is by contention the
development of a long-term strategy | 2:52:30 | 2:52:33 | |
for our defence and aerospace
industry would do far more than | 2:52:33 | 2:52:36 | |
reassure an individual sector. It
would provide lasting benefits to | 2:52:36 | 2:52:41 | |
our economy, retain our valuable
skills base, guarantee our sovereign | 2:52:41 | 2:52:45 | |
military capability and secure our
position on the global stage. I will | 2:52:45 | 2:52:49 | |
happily give away. I am grateful to
have a giving way. She has mentioned | 2:52:49 | 2:52:53 | |
tornado twice in her speech and a
very valuable role that it has | 2:52:53 | 2:52:58 | |
played. It still remains a very
potent combat aircraft, even today. | 2:52:58 | 2:53:04 | |
Which agree with me we have the
skills available in British | 2:53:04 | 2:53:09 | |
industry, such that when they
retired from service in 2019, we | 2:53:09 | 2:53:14 | |
should keep some as a war reserve
and industry have the capability to | 2:53:14 | 2:53:19 | |
support that? Which agree with that
suggestion? Thank you very much. I | 2:53:19 | 2:53:24 | |
agree with the gentleman. I know
this is something he has been | 2:53:24 | 2:53:29 | |
raising repeatedly in recent months.
We have to decide what reserves we | 2:53:29 | 2:53:33 | |
actually need, but that is no
replacement for the development of | 2:53:33 | 2:53:36 | |
our future capabilities.
Firstly, on our economy. Our defence | 2:53:36 | 2:53:41 | |
aerospace sector makes an enormous
contribution. It is the core part of | 2:53:41 | 2:53:44 | |
our wider defence industry which
directly employs over 142,000 | 2:53:44 | 2:53:51 | |
people, with a further 116,000
indirectly employed in the supply | 2:53:51 | 2:53:56 | |
chain. In 2016, BEA Systems -- BAE
Systems contributed 11.1 billion of | 2:53:56 | 2:54:03 | |
gross value added to the UK,
equivalent to 0.6% of our entire | 2:54:03 | 2:54:09 | |
economic output. There is further
additional value to ensuring those | 2:54:09 | 2:54:13 | |
defence jobs stay in the UK. For
every £1 the Government spend on the | 2:54:13 | 2:54:18 | |
defence contract when the good or
service is generated in the UK, the | 2:54:18 | 2:54:24 | |
Treasury receives 37p back in
revenue. As well as the new platform | 2:54:24 | 2:54:29 | |
or system we have procured. It is
self-evident a strong defence | 2:54:29 | 2:54:37 | |
industry is an indicator to a strong
economy. Our defence aerospace | 2:54:37 | 2:54:41 | |
industry supports thousands of well
paid and highly skilled jobs, the | 2:54:41 | 2:54:44 | |
majority of which are outside of the
south-east. As well as boosting our | 2:54:44 | 2:54:48 | |
economy through exports of
world-class products. In fact, our | 2:54:48 | 2:54:55 | |
defence aerospace sector accounts
for 88% of all defence exports, an | 2:54:55 | 2:55:02 | |
incredibly important aspect of our
economy, especially as we look to | 2:55:02 | 2:55:05 | |
leave the European Union force but
not least that the impact on our | 2:55:05 | 2:55:08 | |
future balance of payments. But
there are challenges in the sector | 2:55:08 | 2:55:13 | |
which fundamentally relate to two
factors. One is the fact export | 2:55:13 | 2:55:17 | |
sales are typically dependent on the
use of future platforms by Rob Aria. | 2:55:17 | 2:55:21 | |
The British brand and RAF stamp of
approval means a huge amount for | 2:55:21 | 2:55:28 | |
others. When buying British is key
for the global success of the | 2:55:28 | 2:55:32 | |
sector, we need to pay attention.
The second significant challenges | 2:55:32 | 2:55:36 | |
the extended lead in times and
development processes which | 2:55:36 | 2:55:40 | |
characterise the industry. This
requires a long-term strategy, not a | 2:55:40 | 2:55:46 | |
short-term fix, to ensure a steady
drumbeat of orders and constant RND | 2:55:46 | 2:55:52 | |
domain competence -- maintain
confidence in the industry. We have | 2:55:52 | 2:55:57 | |
seen recently what happens when that
certainty is missing from the | 2:55:57 | 2:55:59 | |
market. With Bae recently announcing
up to 2000 redundancies owing to a | 2:55:59 | 2:56:05 | |
gap in their order books, those job
losses are not just a blow for those | 2:56:05 | 2:56:09 | |
workers and their families, but
could also result in a loss of skill | 2:56:09 | 2:56:13 | |
and expertise that could set us back
a generation. I believe that these | 2:56:13 | 2:56:17 | |
jobs could potentially be protected
in the short term if the Government | 2:56:17 | 2:56:20 | |
could commit to bringing forward the
order for the new Hawk aircraft of | 2:56:20 | 2:56:24 | |
the Red Arrows and securing the next
wave of export contracts but that | 2:56:24 | 2:56:28 | |
aircraft. I will give way that
point. I thank you for giving way. | 2:56:28 | 2:56:33 | |
The Hawk aircraft is incredibly
important to my constituents, many | 2:56:33 | 2:56:38 | |
work at BAE Systems in broth. Is it
not the case that as well as the | 2:56:38 | 2:56:42 | |
work of the Government is doing,
bringing forward the Red Arrows | 2:56:42 | 2:56:49 | |
replacement aircraft could fill some
of the gap in the order book but | 2:56:49 | 2:56:52 | |
also could be done in such a way as
to support the development of new | 2:56:52 | 2:56:57 | |
orders, so that what is billed now
doesn't necessarily have to be part | 2:56:57 | 2:57:01 | |
of the replacement fleet but we
could use that as the short gap? | 2:57:01 | 2:57:05 | |
I completely agree with the
honourable gentleman. Let's be | 2:57:05 | 2:57:08 | |
clear, this is a brand-new aircraft
and our red arrows should be selling | 2:57:08 | 2:57:12 | |
it to the world with their own skill
set. I will give way. | 2:57:12 | 2:57:21 | |
Clearly the orders at the moment are
hinge ring on the Qatari order. If | 2:57:21 | 2:57:27 | |
that came forward and the Red
Arrows's replacement for not brought | 2:57:27 | 2:57:33 | |
forward by the Government we could
have a situation in this country | 2:57:33 | 2:57:38 | |
where we have a problem.
I completely agree with the | 2:57:38 | 2:57:42 | |
honourable gentleman. The reality is
this is about our sovereign skills | 2:57:42 | 2:57:45 | |
mix and if we can actually develop
future training aircraft as we move | 2:57:45 | 2:57:52 | |
forward. The other part of this is
it's about people's lives and the | 2:57:52 | 2:57:56 | |
people that are here today, it's
about what jobs they have going | 2:57:56 | 2:57:59 | |
forward as well. This is a key
moment for the Government to act. I | 2:57:59 | 2:58:02 | |
will give way.
Would she agreed, if that sovereign | 2:58:02 | 2:58:09 | |
capability goes, that means either
the Red Arrows goes altogether or | 2:58:09 | 2:58:12 | |
the future of the Red Arrows will
either be flying Italian, French or | 2:58:12 | 2:58:16 | |
possibly South Korean aircraft?
Perish the thought that they should | 2:58:16 | 2:58:23 | |
be flagged anything other than
British built planes. I think one of | 2:58:23 | 2:58:27 | |
the issues here, and let's be clear,
the date 2030 is not something | 2:58:27 | 2:58:32 | |
anyone recognised until recent weeks
as a date for renewal for the Hawks, | 2:58:32 | 2:58:37 | |
and for me, and I say this as a
young member of this house, | 2:58:37 | 2:58:40 | |
obviously! Thank you... The
youngest, or the newest Hawk | 2:58:40 | 2:58:49 | |
aircraft used by the Red Arrows is
six months older than me. This is | 2:58:49 | 2:58:53 | |
not showing off their best and
brightest of our potential | 2:58:53 | 2:58:56 | |
capability right now. As long as you
say how you young I am. | 2:58:56 | 2:59:02 | |
We are both very young members!
There is not quite so much agreement | 2:59:02 | 2:59:06 | |
in my case, it would appear. On the
issue of the age of the aircraft, is | 2:59:06 | 2:59:11 | |
it not also the case there have been
some really troubling reports about | 2:59:11 | 2:59:14 | |
just how few of our current red
arrows aircraft are actually able to | 2:59:14 | 2:59:20 | |
fly at any one time, which is where
the estate of 2030 seems somewhat | 2:59:20 | 2:59:26 | |
strange to many people intimately
involved in that particular... | 2:59:26 | 2:59:33 | |
Having had the privilege of sitting
in red on last year, I agree. It is | 2:59:33 | 2:59:37 | |
a showcase and joys of the RAF. For
us not to be investing in the 100th | 2:59:37 | 2:59:43 | |
anniversary of the RAF seems
short-sighted to me. I'm not in | 2:59:43 | 2:59:45 | |
favour of having a new aircraft for
the sake of it. But it is our most | 2:59:45 | 2:59:50 | |
impressive and important defence
engagement all. One of the | 2:59:50 | 2:59:53 | |
priorities of the RAF. The Red
Arrows can show the best of our new | 2:59:53 | 2:59:57 | |
technologies on a global stage we
should be encouraging them to do so. | 2:59:57 | 3:00:05 | |
But I acknowledge this would be a
sticking plaster and the long-term | 3:00:05 | 3:00:07 | |
security of these sites and others
can only be guaranteed by the | 3:00:07 | 3:00:10 | |
development of a clear and genuine
industrial strategy for the future | 3:00:10 | 3:00:12 | |
of UK defence. I will give way.
I recall when I was a young Major, | 3:00:12 | 3:00:21 | |
I'm still young, as the honourable
lady would agree! In 1984, we were | 3:00:21 | 3:00:30 | |
talking about the requirement for a
defence aerospace industrial | 3:00:30 | 3:00:36 | |
strategy. We changed the name
sometimes, but we keep talking about | 3:00:36 | 3:00:41 | |
it, and the truth of the matter is,
every time there is a defence | 3:00:41 | 3:00:47 | |
review, the aerospace industrial
strategy goes into the bin. I'm | 3:00:47 | 3:00:50 | |
afraid that's the reality of it. We
all want a defence aerospace | 3:00:50 | 3:00:55 | |
industrial strategy, but it keeps
getting scrapped, like so many of | 3:00:55 | 3:01:00 | |
our aircraft do.
I think this is a perfect | 3:01:00 | 3:01:05 | |
opportunity for the Government to
ensure there is a real opportunity | 3:01:05 | 3:01:08 | |
now going forward, so that we can
actually have an industrial | 3:01:08 | 3:01:12 | |
strategy, put their money where
their mouth is and move us forward. | 3:01:12 | 3:01:16 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, my second
point relates to the retention of | 3:01:16 | 3:01:20 | |
our skills base. Our defence
aerospace industrial industry | 3:01:20 | 3:01:25 | |
operates at the cutting edge of
modern technology. This is highly | 3:01:25 | 3:01:29 | |
skilled, highly qualified workforce
and their talents at a national | 3:01:29 | 3:01:32 | |
resource that needs to be nurtured
as well as retained. It is this very | 3:01:32 | 3:01:37 | |
expertise which enabled us to play a
major role in developing the F 35 | 3:01:37 | 3:01:42 | |
alongside a US partners, a project
which was secured by our unique | 3:01:42 | 3:01:46 | |
knowledge through the design of the
Harrier jump jet. But when a future | 3:01:46 | 3:01:51 | |
projects are uncertain, these jobs
are put at risk, and if they go, | 3:01:51 | 3:01:55 | |
those skills will go with them. Once
the capability to develop and | 3:01:55 | 3:01:59 | |
produce complex systems in any field
has been lost, it can be incredibly | 3:01:59 | 3:02:04 | |
difficult and time-consuming to
rebuild. One only has to look at the | 3:02:04 | 3:02:08 | |
experience of the astute programme
to see the danger. Delays in our | 3:02:08 | 3:02:12 | |
procurement of the new submarine
programme has led to significant | 3:02:12 | 3:02:17 | |
redundancies on very specific
skills, which meant that | 3:02:17 | 3:02:20 | |
embarrassingly when we decided to
eventually upgrade our submarine | 3:02:20 | 3:02:24 | |
capability, we had to go cap in hand
an American firm to help us | 3:02:24 | 3:02:29 | |
rediscover an upscale the skills we
had lost. | 3:02:29 | 3:02:36 | |
I thank my honourable friend for
giving way to stop she is right to | 3:02:36 | 3:02:39 | |
mention the problem in Barrow forced
of course, I'm sure she will agree, | 3:02:39 | 3:02:44 | |
not only was reskilling the problem
but the massive extra cost to the | 3:02:44 | 3:02:51 | |
taxpayer from that. In a programme
web then there was only one | 3:02:51 | 3:02:56 | |
supplier. In aerospace we are
talking about potentially losing out | 3:02:56 | 3:03:00 | |
to competitors because other people
make aeroplanes, we are the only | 3:03:00 | 3:03:02 | |
ones who make submarines.
The honourable member speaks with | 3:03:02 | 3:03:08 | |
authority about his constituents and
their work in Barrow. I will not be | 3:03:08 | 3:03:11 | |
taking any more interventions
because I'm running out of time. | 3:03:11 | 3:03:14 | |
This was not just a national
embarrassment. The erosion of | 3:03:14 | 3:03:17 | |
capability can have serious and long
lasting consequences for our | 3:03:17 | 3:03:22 | |
sovereign military capability. Let's
not repeat previous mistakes. Let's | 3:03:22 | 3:03:26 | |
develop a conference of industrial
strategy for our defence aerospace | 3:03:26 | 3:03:30 | |
sector to ensure a steady drumbeat
of orders and maximise the benefits | 3:03:30 | 3:03:35 | |
of a highly successful export
market. | 3:03:35 | 3:03:37 | |
Central to that strategy must be a
forward-thinking plan that already | 3:03:37 | 3:03:42 | |
starts to consider what a post-F 35
future might look like. We need a | 3:03:42 | 3:03:48 | |
commitment to a development of a six
combat fighter to ensure we have a | 3:03:48 | 3:03:51 | |
British option for our next
multirole defence asset. Madam | 3:03:51 | 3:03:57 | |
Deputy Speaker, and sure it won't
surprise you to know the development | 3:03:57 | 3:04:01 | |
of the typhoon on the F 35 projects
took two decades from concept stage | 3:04:01 | 3:04:07 | |
to mass production. We need to
commit now to developing this new | 3:04:07 | 3:04:10 | |
platform, with a view to the
finished product entering service in | 3:04:10 | 3:04:15 | |
the 20 30s, when I was still be a
young member. We should also use | 3:04:15 | 3:04:18 | |
that project as an opportunity for a
realignment, away from a US-led | 3:04:18 | 3:04:23 | |
development process and turn towards
our partners in Europe. The F 35 is | 3:04:23 | 3:04:29 | |
an exemplary piece of kit and we
should be proud of our involvement | 3:04:29 | 3:04:33 | |
in its development, but if we are to
maximise the benefits of our | 3:04:33 | 3:04:37 | |
domestic defence aerospace industry,
we need to play a lead role in the | 3:04:37 | 3:04:41 | |
development and construction of the
six generation fighter and not | 3:04:41 | 3:04:44 | |
operate in the long shadow of the US
military industrial complex. | 3:04:44 | 3:04:51 | |
Finally, a defence aerospace
industrial strategy sends a message | 3:04:51 | 3:04:53 | |
to the world that we are serious
future defence. Our long-term | 3:04:53 | 3:04:59 | |
security and that of our allies and
provides us with opportunities to | 3:04:59 | 3:05:03 | |
build lasting relationships with
international partners. It would | 3:05:03 | 3:05:06 | |
also demonstrate that the UK may be
leaving the European Union but we | 3:05:06 | 3:05:10 | |
aren't leaving the world and we are
open for business. When a nation | 3:05:10 | 3:05:16 | |
develops an over reliance on foreign
imports for its defence capabilities | 3:05:16 | 3:05:19 | |
it does not just impact on jobs and
industries, it also sends a signal | 3:05:19 | 3:05:22 | |
to the world about their lack of
confidence in their own industry and | 3:05:22 | 3:05:27 | |
society. Put simply, great nations
become great by acting as though | 3:05:27 | 3:05:31 | |
they are. If we put our faith and
our active long-term support into | 3:05:31 | 3:05:37 | |
our domestic defence aerospace
industry, it will show the world | 3:05:37 | 3:05:39 | |
that we are leaders in the field and
that we intend to keep it that way. | 3:05:39 | 3:05:44 | |
Madam Deputy | 3:05:44 | 3:05:54 | |
Speaker, the time is right for the
development of this strategy. | 3:05:54 | 3:05:56 | |
Industry is willing, the military
are wanting, what we need now is | 3:05:56 | 3:05:59 | |
government action. I'd move the
debate. The question is this house | 3:05:59 | 3:06:01 | |
considers aerospace defence
strategy. Doctor Lewis. | 3:06:01 | 3:06:04 | |
In the run-up to this debate so ably
introduced by the honourable lady | 3:06:04 | 3:06:09 | |
for Stoke-on-Trent North, a star of
the defence committee it must be | 3:06:09 | 3:06:14 | |
said, I and other members of the
committee were almost inundated with | 3:06:14 | 3:06:20 | |
communications from defence
companies wanting to showcase how | 3:06:20 | 3:06:22 | |
much they do for industry in this
country. Boeing UK wanted to draw | 3:06:22 | 3:06:31 | |
attention to their 18,700 workers in
the UK. MBTA, the missile | 3:06:31 | 3:06:37 | |
specialists, wanted to draw
attention to the billion pounds | 3:06:37 | 3:06:42 | |
worth of annual sales that they
generate. But BAE Systems they are a | 3:06:42 | 3:06:49 | |
rather special position. They have
over 83,000 employees in 40 | 3:06:49 | 3:06:56 | |
countries. They are a global leader,
as they describe themselves, in | 3:06:56 | 3:07:02 | |
making and supporting combat
aircraft, and they state... If we | 3:07:02 | 3:07:05 | |
are to sustain this leading
position, the Government commitment | 3:07:05 | 3:07:10 | |
to the development of a next
generation of combat aircraft, | 3:07:10 | 3:07:14 | |
precisely as the honourable lady
just said, would be of immense value | 3:07:14 | 3:07:17 | |
to the industry. The Government is
committed to an industrial strategy | 3:07:17 | 3:07:25 | |
process with a defence sector deal
as a component of that. The question | 3:07:25 | 3:07:29 | |
is, whether that is sufficient or
whether we need a separate strategy? | 3:07:29 | 3:07:35 | |
It does seem rather strange to me,
at least, that when we have a | 3:07:35 | 3:07:40 | |
separate national shipbuilding
strategy and shipbuilding, for all | 3:07:40 | 3:07:44 | |
its valuable potential for export
does not even begin to approach the | 3:07:44 | 3:07:47 | |
potential for export and the actual
magnitude of the exports of the | 3:07:47 | 3:07:52 | |
aerospace industry, it seems rather
strange that we should want to | 3:07:52 | 3:07:55 | |
subsume a strategy for the aerospace
industry under a general industrial | 3:07:55 | 3:08:02 | |
strategy, where as we are prepared
to have a separate one for | 3:08:02 | 3:08:05 | |
shipbuilding. | 3:08:05 | 3:08:10 | |
In the case of the joint strike
fighter, the Lightning Two we | 3:08:10 | 3:08:17 | |
provide parts for all aircraft bill.
We only provide sections of the | 3:08:17 | 3:08:22 | |
aircraft. That may be not enough to
sustain our importance as a prime | 3:08:22 | 3:08:31 | |
integrator with all the supply
companies that depend on process. | 3:08:31 | 3:08:39 | |
The industry is asking the
government to think ahead, and to | 3:08:39 | 3:08:42 | |
make advanced investment, so that we
will be able to be in the van of | 3:08:42 | 3:08:50 | |
future development in Accra. I
believe requests for investment have | 3:08:50 | 3:08:56 | |
to be a two way process. I would
just point out for example, not just | 3:08:56 | 3:09:02 | |
BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce saying
themselves the current R&D | 3:09:02 | 3:09:07 | |
investment in future it | 3:09:07 | 3:09:12 | |
-- combat aircraft ceases in 2018.
If the government wants countries to | 3:09:17 | 3:09:23 | |
invest in the future of the industry
we are entitled to say to these | 3:09:23 | 3:09:29 | |
companies, you need to invest in the
future of the workforce. As I | 3:09:29 | 3:09:34 | |
pointed out, in response to the
urgent question about the BAE | 3:09:34 | 3:09:38 | |
Systems redundant | 3:09:38 | 3:09:41 | |
Question. It is a massive company
enjoying monopoly position in the | 3:09:45 | 3:09:51 | |
British defence structure. It should
be working in the closest way | 3:09:51 | 3:09:53 | |
possible in operation with the
government to see whether these job | 3:09:53 | 3:09:56 | |
losses can be mitigated. It is a two
way process. We need the companies | 3:09:56 | 3:10:02 | |
to invest in the workforce. It is a
pleasure to follow the honourable | 3:10:02 | 3:10:08 | |
gentleman, as always. Let me add my
congratulations to my honourable | 3:10:08 | 3:10:12 | |
friend or having secured this
debate. The honourable gentleman is | 3:10:12 | 3:10:17 | |
of course right in the need for
collaboration. The uncertainty, | 3:10:17 | 3:10:23 | |
which I hope the Minister will be
able to clear up, in her closing | 3:10:23 | 3:10:30 | |
remarks, is over the extent of this
government is my commitment to the | 3:10:30 | 3:10:35 | |
future of aerospace. We are in a
perilous position as a country. We | 3:10:35 | 3:10:41 | |
have the slowdown affecting many of
my neighbouring constituencies in | 3:10:41 | 3:10:50 | |
the north-west, with the process of
job losses. There is uncertainty | 3:10:50 | 3:10:55 | |
over future orders, where the export
market, as my honourable friend said | 3:10:55 | 3:11:03 | |
remains absolutely key. There is
this question mark over the | 3:11:03 | 3:11:11 | |
determination, and even I have to
say, the capacity at the moment of | 3:11:11 | 3:11:15 | |
the Ministry of Defence, to look
forwards, and to do the planning. | 3:11:15 | 3:11:19 | |
Which is necessary. If this was
aerospace alone, this would be | 3:11:19 | 3:11:26 | |
concerning enough. Because of other
reasons my honourable friend has so | 3:11:26 | 3:11:32 | |
adeptly set out. They massive
contribution that it makes to our | 3:11:32 | 3:11:37 | |
overall industrial base. Advanced
manufacturing drugs, contribution to | 3:11:37 | 3:11:40 | |
the country that those capabilities
bring. The defence engagement role. | 3:11:40 | 3:11:45 | |
In being able to underpin our
strategic defence relationships with | 3:11:45 | 3:11:49 | |
key partner nations. That the worry
is, it is not simply in aerospace | 3:11:49 | 3:11:57 | |
where this vital forward look under
which the government needs to be | 3:11:57 | 3:12:03 | |
doing, is potentially stalling. I
was really alarmed to hear recently | 3:12:03 | 3:12:11 | |
the key spending on the government's
future submarine programme, the | 3:12:11 | 3:12:18 | |
unfortunately titled NEFC Maritime
underwater security, has been cut, | 3:12:18 | 3:12:34 | |
and creates the impression that the
government sees it hitting a wall | 3:12:34 | 3:12:43 | |
with the level of spending
restrictions comparative spending | 3:12:43 | 3:12:46 | |
restriction on with it. The build-up
of capabilities, when ministers were | 3:12:46 | 3:12:54 | |
on these benches, understandably at
times, in the way we're seeing a | 3:12:54 | 3:13:08 | |
remarkable number of projects being
done exactly the same. You have this | 3:13:08 | 3:13:12 | |
sense that this is the government
which, having once it to balance the | 3:13:12 | 3:13:21 | |
books, spuriously, but look to the
future, going back into crisis mode, | 3:13:21 | 3:13:28 | |
going back to this mode of just
being able to get through one | 3:13:28 | 3:13:31 | |
budget, to another. When the future
planning suffers, it is not only our | 3:13:31 | 3:13:41 | |
future capability, we end up with an
inferior capability, potentially | 3:13:41 | 3:13:48 | |
buying off the shelves, losing jobs
and spending much more for it. The | 3:13:48 | 3:13:52 | |
government does have an opportunity,
there is a window now to actually | 3:13:52 | 3:13:56 | |
acknowledge the concerns building
up, and I hope the minister does | 3:13:56 | 3:14:00 | |
that to date. The whole defence
procurement sector, and the defence | 3:14:00 | 3:14:09 | |
aerospace industry as a huge role to
play supporting employment, experts | 3:14:09 | 3:14:15 | |
and grow. Our sovereign defence
community and the national interest | 3:14:15 | 3:14:18 | |
must lie at the heart of the
decisions we make with government | 3:14:18 | 3:14:21 | |
policy on defence. We need a
defence, aerospace industrial | 3:14:21 | 3:14:26 | |
strategy taking into account the
practical needs of our Armed Forces. | 3:14:26 | 3:14:31 | |
Recent ongoing operations to counter
Daesh, and efforts in | 3:14:31 | 3:14:48 | |
hurricanes shows that we need a
sovereign skill capacity to | 3:14:55 | 3:14:59 | |
manufacture platforms, innovating
Britain 52 future. The skills need | 3:14:59 | 3:15:03 | |
to continue to develop high-tech
world leading aerospace platforms, | 3:15:03 | 3:15:08 | |
and our skills which are present
across the country, particularly | 3:15:08 | 3:15:12 | |
present in my own constituency,
which has ever us, Boeing and BAE | 3:15:12 | 3:15:16 | |
among many others. There are skills
which we must work hard to maintain, | 3:15:16 | 3:15:22 | |
increasingly, enhance and develop,
there is a serious skills shortage | 3:15:22 | 3:15:27 | |
of engineers and scientists. We must
avoid being forced to rely entirely | 3:15:27 | 3:15:32 | |
on expertise from abroad. In
interrupting my honourable friend, | 3:15:32 | 3:15:39 | |
would he welcomed the announcement
this week at the Dubai airshow that | 3:15:39 | 3:15:43 | |
Airbus announced it has struck its
biggest single aircraft order ever, | 3:15:43 | 3:15:49 | |
for 430 new jets. Great news for the
workforce? I sank the honourable | 3:15:49 | 3:15:58 | |
lady for her intervention, I'm
obviously delighted and thrilled, | 3:15:58 | 3:16:03 | |
for the excellent news we had and
the jobs that will help secure in my | 3:16:03 | 3:16:06 | |
constituency and elsewhere in the
country. As I have said before, the | 3:16:06 | 3:16:12 | |
defence and aerospace companies I
have met and engaged with over many | 3:16:12 | 3:16:15 | |
years are very clear. Without
procurement commitments, over the | 3:16:15 | 3:16:18 | |
long term, Britain will lose the
skills we have worked so hard to | 3:16:18 | 3:16:23 | |
nurture and develop. Long-term
nature of this issue, worth | 3:16:23 | 3:16:27 | |
remembering equipment used in the
2000 lessons intervention derived | 3:16:27 | 3:16:34 | |
from research and development first
beginning in the 1970s. We cannot | 3:16:34 | 3:16:37 | |
fall prey to short-term
decision-making, based on the | 3:16:37 | 3:16:41 | |
current defence and budgetary
landscape and still find skilled | 3:16:41 | 3:16:45 | |
defence and Aerospace workforce in
the future when we need it the most. | 3:16:45 | 3:16:49 | |
At this point I would like to thank
the Parliamentary Undersecretary for | 3:16:49 | 3:16:52 | |
state and defence, the honourable
member for Bournemouth East, to | 3:16:52 | 3:16:56 | |
write to me to update me with a
progressive department is making on | 3:16:56 | 3:17:00 | |
the replacement of the typhoon. This
will be welcomed by defence and | 3:17:00 | 3:17:03 | |
aerospace industries across the
country. And in my constituency in | 3:17:03 | 3:17:07 | |
particular. The beginnings of the
procurement process has begun. The | 3:17:07 | 3:17:15 | |
future combat air system will be
vital to supporting our defence and | 3:17:15 | 3:17:18 | |
aerospace skills. Most importantly,
vital to maintain our sovereign | 3:17:18 | 3:17:22 | |
defence capabilities. Our place in
the world. Alongside procurement | 3:17:22 | 3:17:29 | |
like this, important we support the
excellent work done by number of | 3:17:29 | 3:17:36 | |
aerospace companies to encourage
apprenticeships and graduate | 3:17:36 | 3:17:37 | |
programmes. These will help to
secure the skills base, as well as | 3:17:37 | 3:17:43 | |
finding excellent opportunities for
young talent, enhancing our | 3:17:43 | 3:17:46 | |
country's social mobility. The 5%
club, where companies insure 5% of | 3:17:46 | 3:17:51 | |
the UK workforce will be
apprentices, or students of | 3:17:51 | 3:17:57 | |
structured programmes is a very
welcome scheme. I would commend it | 3:17:57 | 3:18:00 | |
not only to the other manufacturers
in my constituency, that | 3:18:00 | 3:18:04 | |
manufacturers up and down the
country. Alongside this I welcome | 3:18:04 | 3:18:07 | |
the efforts of Airbus in particular
and others in the sector, to engage | 3:18:07 | 3:18:12 | |
directly with universities and
university technical colleges and | 3:18:12 | 3:18:16 | |
investing heavily in the skilled
research and development we need. | 3:18:16 | 3:18:20 | |
However our sovereign defence
requirements and the requirements of | 3:18:20 | 3:18:24 | |
our industries extend beyond that. I
would as the government to consider | 3:18:24 | 3:18:29 | |
a wide range of research and skills
opportunities in any future | 3:18:29 | 3:18:34 | |
aerospace and defence strategy. A
comparative approach is required so | 3:18:34 | 3:18:38 | |
that our Armed Forces have the best
possible technology available, and | 3:18:38 | 3:18:43 | |
our country has the skills base to
design, build and develop this | 3:18:43 | 3:18:46 | |
technology. Can I just say to the
Minister, everyone in here has the | 3:18:46 | 3:18:59 | |
interests of our country? Defence
apart. The challenge to the Minister | 3:18:59 | 3:19:03 | |
is not meant in a partisan way. That
is necessary because we want to hold | 3:19:03 | 3:19:08 | |
the government to account the
respectable of this. Let me just | 3:19:08 | 3:19:11 | |
say, I think the way in which the
defence and their sadism that share | 3:19:11 | 3:19:18 | |
the Defence Select Committee and
some of those members here, | 3:19:18 | 3:19:20 | |
including my honourable friend for
Stoke North, who has moved this | 3:19:20 | 3:19:24 | |
debate. Some of the evidence given
over the last few weeks about | 3:19:24 | 3:19:29 | |
defence procurement, the equipment
essential, it should be essential | 3:19:29 | 3:19:33 | |
reading for all members of this
house. I commend the chair and the | 3:19:33 | 3:19:37 | |
committee, others here for that. Let
me just say why, because it is | 3:19:37 | 3:19:42 | |
important, as my honourable friend
from Barrow were saying, this debate | 3:19:42 | 3:19:45 | |
takes place within the context of a
great deal of uncertainty around the | 3:19:45 | 3:19:50 | |
whole of the equipment budget. That
uncertainty means the government is | 3:19:50 | 3:19:55 | |
left, depending on who you believe,
quite considerable sums of money, | 3:19:55 | 3:20:00 | |
not sure how it is going to feel
that. If we are not careful, we will | 3:20:00 | 3:20:05 | |
end up with short-term fixes, in
terms of medium and long-term | 3:20:05 | 3:20:09 | |
strategic objectives. The aerospace
industry is particularly vulnerable | 3:20:09 | 3:20:14 | |
at the moment to that. Let me just
quote from the select committee. | 3:20:14 | 3:20:20 | |
Just published this morning. The
evidence of the generals and | 3:20:20 | 3:20:29 | |
admirals was particularly
challenging for the government. In | 3:20:29 | 3:20:31 | |
the context of this debate I want to
point out what Air Marshal Sir Basil | 3:20:31 | 3:20:36 | |
North said. Look at our defence
exports, 80% is in the air sector. | 3:20:36 | 3:20:42 | |
Yet we do not have an air sector
industrial policy to support the | 3:20:42 | 3:20:46 | |
very industries that we need to
support those platforms at home to | 3:20:46 | 3:20:50 | |
sustain these. Not just about
foreign exchange, though we find | 3:20:50 | 3:20:56 | |
ourselves, people wish to buy our
kit. We are not joined up and | 3:20:56 | 3:21:01 | |
together in terms of supporting that
initiative. I just think that sums | 3:21:01 | 3:21:06 | |
up, and I say this to the Minister,
that sums up where we are. If we | 3:21:06 | 3:21:12 | |
take BAE systems, and there are many
other defence companies. We have the | 3:21:12 | 3:21:17 | |
typhoon, the Eurofighter, whatever
you want to call it. Rolled out | 3:21:17 | 3:21:20 | |
until 2040. What happens as a
consequence after that, we're not | 3:21:20 | 3:21:24 | |
sure. We have the Hawk jets, with
2030 day, many of us have not heard | 3:21:24 | 3:21:38 | |
until this week. Why Demi you use
this as an opportunity to sustain | 3:21:38 | 3:21:42 | |
the skills, the expertise, of our
workforce. Why do we take this as an | 3:21:42 | 3:21:48 | |
opportunity to look at how we might
use the newer Hawks to showcase | 3:21:48 | 3:21:54 | |
everything that is the best of our
industry and our workforce. To | 3:21:54 | 3:21:59 | |
retain that sovereignty of ability.
We cannot, in this industry, see it | 3:21:59 | 3:22:04 | |
as a tap turned on and off. We have
to maintain capability and sustain | 3:22:04 | 3:22:10 | |
that civility. Much of that is about
exports. -- sustain that capability. | 3:22:10 | 3:22:18 | |
Where is this next-generation combat
fighter coming from? We are | 3:22:18 | 3:22:20 | |
uncertain. We all know that
certainty is the key to investment. | 3:22:20 | 3:22:25 | |
Certainty is the key to maintaining
the skills, the training through | 3:22:25 | 3:22:30 | |
apprenticeships of future workers,
so I say again to the chair of the | 3:22:30 | 3:22:34 | |
committee. It should be essential
reading for everybody, the evidence | 3:22:34 | 3:22:37 | |
come forward to the committee. It
challenges the government to get a | 3:22:37 | 3:22:43 | |
grip on the equipment procurement of
which aerospace is a crucial and | 3:22:43 | 3:22:48 | |
dynamic part. | 3:22:48 | 3:22:52 | |
It is a pleasure to follow so many
speakers in this debate, who have | 3:22:52 | 3:22:59 | |
spoken with such passion and
knowledge about this topic, about | 3:22:59 | 3:23:02 | |
which all of us are absolutely
dedicated, on all sides of the | 3:23:02 | 3:23:06 | |
House. May I also thank the
backbench business committee, the | 3:23:06 | 3:23:10 | |
having drafted the debate and the
member for style North. I started my | 3:23:10 | 3:23:19 | |
speech refer to my members interest.
The Royal Air Force and knew it | 3:23:19 | 3:23:24 | |
would need new aircraft and Ulster
North American company to look at | 3:23:24 | 3:23:28 | |
designing one and it became the
legendary P 51 Mustang. That went | 3:23:28 | 3:23:32 | |
from request a first flight in 141
days. It's fairly trite that we | 3:23:32 | 3:23:36 | |
cannot do that any more. That is
precisely why, from my perspective, | 3:23:36 | 3:23:41 | |
I would like this topic to be
considered seriously by the | 3:23:41 | 3:23:45 | |
Government, because we had to think
about the kind of capability that we | 3:23:45 | 3:23:48 | |
are going to need in the future,
what it's going to be, where it is | 3:23:48 | 3:23:55 | |
going to come from, what the air
force needs and how we are going to | 3:23:55 | 3:23:58 | |
get it. Because the story we've seen
from 1940, the decline in many ways | 3:23:58 | 3:24:04 | |
of the British aircraft industry is
very sad. I will give you two quick | 3:24:04 | 3:24:08 | |
examples in my limited time as to
what we should try and avoid. The | 3:24:08 | 3:24:14 | |
60s, three V bombers, competing with
three excellent designs. Why was | 3:24:14 | 3:24:17 | |
that we had three excellent designs
competing for the same space with | 3:24:17 | 3:24:20 | |
the result we now have none of those
aircraft industries existing on | 3:24:20 | 3:24:25 | |
their own? Secondly, the Harrier,
probably the last great British | 3:24:25 | 3:24:29 | |
aircraft that we sold to the
Americans. We then looked at having | 3:24:29 | 3:24:32 | |
an advanced Harrier and for various
reasons we decided in the end to | 3:24:32 | 3:24:37 | |
pull out of Rob advanced Harrier
programme. There's a number of | 3:24:37 | 3:24:40 | |
reasonss for that. Costs for a
start. What we ended up doing, | 3:24:40 | 3:24:47 | |
albeit in a joint programme, was
essentially buying back from the | 3:24:47 | 3:24:50 | |
Americans and Anglicised Harrier.
What we saw in the 80s and 90s as an | 3:24:50 | 3:24:59 | |
Anglicised American aircraft. It is
exactly that I want to avoid. We've | 3:24:59 | 3:25:03 | |
seen brilliant British industry and
skills and brilliant British | 3:25:03 | 3:25:07 | |
technology not having the input it
needs, through a lack of looking | 3:25:07 | 3:25:11 | |
strategically at where we are going
to be going. That is exactly what... | 3:25:11 | 3:25:17 | |
I would add that the fact the
typhoon began on the drawing board | 3:25:17 | 3:25:21 | |
in 1984 and came into service in
2003. Isn't that the problem? | 3:25:21 | 3:25:27 | |
I'm very grateful to him for making
that point. If we look at typhoon or | 3:25:27 | 3:25:35 | |
F35, and the a 400 M, all these have
had a gestation period of running | 3:25:35 | 3:25:40 | |
between 20,030 years, depending on
how you cut the initial date. If | 3:25:40 | 3:25:44 | |
that is a sort of period we're
looking at, we need to be looking at | 3:25:44 | 3:25:48 | |
what we will be replacing typhoon
with when it is out of service and I | 3:25:48 | 3:25:53 | |
know it is counter intuitive, I'm
grateful to the honourable member | 3:25:53 | 3:25:58 | |
for pointing out, but we have to
consider what will be replacing it. | 3:25:58 | 3:26:01 | |
That is something we have to start
doing. I would like is all not to | 3:26:01 | 3:26:04 | |
become, as we tend to become, quite
fixated on fast jets and a strike | 3:26:04 | 3:26:09 | |
aircraft. We also have to look at
trainers and transport aircraft as | 3:26:09 | 3:26:12 | |
well. We have already referred to
the Hawk and that is something we | 3:26:12 | 3:26:17 | |
would have to look into this mix.
What I'm tried to say is I want to | 3:26:17 | 3:26:20 | |
see ambition | 3:26:20 | 3:26:30 | |
for aviation, as we all do. I want
to see where the fast jet capability | 3:26:38 | 3:26:41 | |
will come from in the future and
also the transport aircraft coming | 3:26:41 | 3:26:43 | |
from the future, so we know what
will be replacing current aircraft. | 3:26:43 | 3:26:46 | |
Hercules will probably be long gone
by that stage. But what we are | 3:26:46 | 3:26:48 | |
likely to need because it is very
inefficient to send the type 45 | 3:26:48 | 3:26:51 | |
destroyer to go and do some light
patrol activities in the Caribbean | 3:26:51 | 3:26:53 | |
when we could send a patrol plane.
Likewise, if you want a show of | 3:26:53 | 3:26:56 | |
force, do you want to send a F35 to
support troops when there is little | 3:26:56 | 3:26:59 | |
or no effort coming back from the
other side? Or could we look at what | 3:26:59 | 3:27:02 | |
the Americans are doing this, could
we be doing that? I don't know the | 3:27:02 | 3:27:05 | |
answer to that and that is something
the air force and Ministry of | 3:27:05 | 3:27:07 | |
Defence will have to consider. My
point is we have to look at what | 3:27:07 | 3:27:10 | |
we're going to need, how we're going
to go about getting it, what could | 3:27:10 | 3:27:14 | |
capability is and go forward and
look at it from here. We can't do | 3:27:14 | 3:27:17 | |
that unless we have that ambition
for aviation. I have concentrated on | 3:27:17 | 3:27:24 | |
typhoon. The jobs come the industry,
and there are lots in my | 3:27:24 | 3:27:28 | |
constituency who are dependent on
Brize Norton, Boeing, this is | 3:27:28 | 3:27:38 | |
important | 3:27:38 | 3:27:38 | |
Brize Norton, Boeing, this is
important as well. I'm very grateful | 3:27:39 | 3:27:39 | |
for short time that has been
available to me. I would like to see | 3:27:39 | 3:27:45 | |
a seven aerospace strategy so we
know where we are going and we have | 3:27:45 | 3:27:48 | |
the | 3:27:48 | 3:27:48 | |
know where we are going and we have
the ambition that aviation that | 3:27:48 | 3:27:49 | |
we'll want to see. I have to reduce
the time limit to three minutes, | 3:27:49 | 3:27:53 | |
Kevin Jones.
Can I congratulate my honourable | 3:27:53 | 3:27:58 | |
friend for scheduling this debate.
She has outlined the importance of | 3:27:58 | 3:28:01 | |
this industry to the UK economy. The
crisis we face is of the | 3:28:01 | 3:28:05 | |
Government's making. In 2010 it came
in and took great capability out, | 3:28:05 | 3:28:11 | |
scrapped things like Nimrod and two
years ago, David Cameron promised | 3:28:11 | 3:28:16 | |
trying to put forward a more
ambitious programme of development, | 3:28:16 | 3:28:21 | |
including the P8 purchase, more
A/Vs, the attack helicopter. The | 3:28:21 | 3:28:28 | |
interesting point is, there was no
extra money in that programme. It | 3:28:28 | 3:28:31 | |
was going to be paid for by
efficiencies and property sales. The | 3:28:31 | 3:28:35 | |
only increase money, the shopping
list going to £24.4 billion. The | 3:28:35 | 3:28:43 | |
only extra money with £6.4 billion,
and that was to accelerate the | 3:28:43 | 3:28:49 | |
in-service date of the F35. That
left £7.3 billion from efficiency | 3:28:49 | 3:28:55 | |
savings, £10.7 billion from land
sales. Neither of which have been | 3:28:55 | 3:29:00 | |
met. £310 million will be met from
efficiencies by 2020 on staff. It | 3:29:00 | 3:29:11 | |
will cost £1 billion. It is of their
own making, in terms of the black | 3:29:11 | 3:29:15 | |
hole they have now developed in the
equipment programme. Added to that | 3:29:15 | 3:29:19 | |
some of the ridiculous and stupid
decisions they made in the | 3:29:19 | 3:29:22 | |
procurement in the last couple of
years. In terms of the procurement | 3:29:22 | 3:29:27 | |
of the P8 and Apache, with the
Brexit and plummet in Pound, it will | 3:29:27 | 3:29:32 | |
add to our cost. The minister
intervened on a member earlier on | 3:29:32 | 3:29:37 | |
and announce the importance of
orders being placed with Airbus. Can | 3:29:37 | 3:29:41 | |
I ask why she did not give that
contract for the P8 to a British | 3:29:41 | 3:29:46 | |
company? Because in terms of Boeing,
they made lots of promises in this | 3:29:46 | 3:29:49 | |
country about what they are going to
invest but I am telling you now, if | 3:29:49 | 3:29:53 | |
it had been the other way round, the
US buying a British product, it | 3:29:53 | 3:29:56 | |
would not have been done without
clear commitments to workshare | 3:29:56 | 3:30:00 | |
taking place in the USA. You only
have to look at the air tanker | 3:30:00 | 3:30:05 | |
contract to see the muscle and way
in which they protect jobs in | 3:30:05 | 3:30:10 | |
America first, rather than overseas.
So the Government are actually | 3:30:10 | 3:30:14 | |
adding to this problem. The clear
question and simple question has to | 3:30:14 | 3:30:19 | |
be asked - does the Government on
strategic capability for fast jets | 3:30:19 | 3:30:25 | |
plus, if it does, it will have to
pay for them. The hawk, I think we | 3:30:25 | 3:30:29 | |
are in clear danger of us getting in
a situation where we will not be | 3:30:29 | 3:30:34 | |
able to provide fast jet trainers in
this country. It used to be an | 3:30:34 | 3:30:37 | |
annual thing when I was a Defence
Minister for tabloids and Tory MPs | 3:30:37 | 3:30:41 | |
to stand up and say Labour were
going to scrap the Red Arrows, we | 3:30:41 | 3:30:44 | |
never were. With this government, we
are in danger, that is exactly what | 3:30:44 | 3:30:48 | |
will happen if those orders are not
coming forward. It is a | 3:30:48 | 3:30:52 | |
short-sighted government making lots
of promises in terms of equipment | 3:30:52 | 3:30:54 | |
but in practice, if you look at
what's happened, it's not been | 3:30:54 | 3:31:00 | |
funded and the actual problem is
facing our industry is once we get | 3:31:00 | 3:31:02 | |
rid of those skills, you can't turn
them back on like a tap. We will be | 3:31:02 | 3:31:06 | |
out of it for good. It will mean if
we want a Red Arrows display team in | 3:31:06 | 3:31:10 | |
future, it will have aircraft from
either Korea, France or Italy, and | 3:31:10 | 3:31:16 | |
that would be a damning indictment
this government. | 3:31:16 | 3:31:20 | |
It is a huge privilege to follow my
honourable friend. We work very | 3:31:23 | 3:31:27 | |
closely on these matters for Durham
North. Can I thank the member for | 3:31:27 | 3:31:33 | |
Stoke North also, for calling this
debate today. This really matters to | 3:31:33 | 3:31:37 | |
my constituency. We are the home of
typhoon final assembly and hawk | 3:31:37 | 3:31:43 | |
final assembly. 6000 men and women
work at BAE Systems in Walton and | 3:31:43 | 3:31:49 | |
thousands more in the supply chain.
I know how important an industrial | 3:31:49 | 3:31:52 | |
defence strategy is. With just over
two and a half minutes, can I focus | 3:31:52 | 3:31:57 | |
on a key number of points... It is a
huge privilege to represent a | 3:31:57 | 3:32:02 | |
constituency where you see a
aircraft are being built, designed, | 3:32:02 | 3:32:06 | |
developed, but also where you can
see them being exported around the | 3:32:06 | 3:32:08 | |
world. Can I thank the Minister for
the support she has given on the | 3:32:08 | 3:32:13 | |
Government has given to incredibly
competitive defence export markets, | 3:32:13 | 3:32:21 | |
particularly the Kingdom of Saudi
Arabia, Qatar, oh man and other | 3:32:21 | 3:32:23 | |
countries around the world was not
please can we maintain that support? | 3:32:23 | 3:32:26 | |
Can we also make sure that the
development work that we have | 3:32:26 | 3:32:29 | |
secured through the memorandum of
understanding with France on combat | 3:32:29 | 3:32:36 | |
vehicles, but that is maintained and
continues, and that the technology | 3:32:36 | 3:32:40 | |
that is designed from the fat system
can be maintained and secured and | 3:32:40 | 3:32:44 | |
then put into what will be a six
generation. The former Prime | 3:32:44 | 3:32:50 | |
Minister David Cameron came to my
constituency on three occasions, all | 3:32:50 | 3:32:52 | |
of them highly regarded. On his
final visit he outlined the | 3:32:52 | 3:33:00 | |
Government's commitment to a sixth
generation fighter aircraft. Can I | 3:33:00 | 3:33:04 | |
urge the Minister to make sure that
we continue to work to make good on | 3:33:04 | 3:33:08 | |
that commitment, to deliver it not
just to keep the United Kingdom | 3:33:08 | 3:33:12 | |
secure, and I say that as a man who
has had the privilege of seeing | 3:33:12 | 3:33:16 | |
typhoon and tornadoes keeping people
in harm 's way of Isis, keeping them | 3:33:16 | 3:33:24 | |
safe. Can we ensure the defence
strategy ensures these we have jobs | 3:33:24 | 3:33:31 | |
in the UK in future? The system is
not buying off-the-shelf, because if | 3:33:31 | 3:33:34 | |
we do not have our own strong
industrial base, then when it comes | 3:33:34 | 3:33:37 | |
to working on collaborative
programme such as F35, we won't have | 3:33:37 | 3:33:43 | |
the technology and ability to chip
into a programme in the way we have | 3:33:43 | 3:33:50 | |
with Tim Palmer. Having that ability
is absolutely critical. We have some | 3:33:50 | 3:33:53 | |
of the best people anywhere in the
world that work in our aviation | 3:33:53 | 3:33:57 | |
defence industry. I am incredibly
proud of them. Can I make sure sure | 3:33:57 | 3:34:03 | |
we do everything we can to support
them in what is an incredibly tough | 3:34:03 | 3:34:06 | |
time for them, and some of them
potentially facing redundancies. We | 3:34:06 | 3:34:09 | |
are good at this. We are very, very
dedicated in this side of the House | 3:34:09 | 3:34:16 | |
to making sure we have a bright
future for our defence industry. | 3:34:16 | 3:34:20 | |
Thank you so much. We have to take
the time limit down to two minutes. | 3:34:20 | 3:34:27 | |
Perhaps it is right and proper if
inform the chamber my daughter is a | 3:34:27 | 3:34:32 | |
serving officer in the Royal Air
Force. I am new to this brief but I | 3:34:32 | 3:34:36 | |
have read the proceedings of the
defence committee on the 25th of | 3:34:36 | 3:34:40 | |
October. I would like to accentuate
two points. The first has already | 3:34:40 | 3:34:44 | |
been made, about the P8, the
involvement with this aircraft. I | 3:34:44 | 3:34:48 | |
suppose we had nothing else we could
do at that time, it was two years | 3:34:48 | 3:34:52 | |
ago, but I have to say for the
record I am equally unhappy we | 3:34:52 | 3:34:55 | |
didn't look to British industry to
build this aircraft but perhaps we | 3:34:55 | 3:34:59 | |
had no choice. But let's not make
any mistake about our friends in | 3:34:59 | 3:35:02 | |
Boeing. I only have to say one word
in this chamber, which is | 3:35:02 | 3:35:08 | |
Bombardier. It underlines the
crucial importance of a strategy for | 3:35:08 | 3:35:12 | |
our error defence industry in
future. | 3:35:12 | 3:35:14 | |
This second point I want to make is
this. Picking up the point made by | 3:35:14 | 3:35:18 | |
the honourable member of Whitney
opposite me. Let us remember why we | 3:35:18 | 3:35:23 | |
won the Second World War. It is
because the 1920s, 30s and 40s, our | 3:35:23 | 3:35:29 | |
air row defence industry was broadly
based, had expertise and was | 3:35:29 | 3:35:33 | |
innovative. If you study your
history, you find we alt designed | 3:35:33 | 3:35:36 | |
and out built our foes. I things
aircraft was the best in the world. | 3:35:36 | 3:35:47 | |
I think that is extraordinarily
important and history speaks in that | 3:35:47 | 3:35:51 | |
regard. I have almost finished my
time Madam Deputy Speaker. I | 3:35:51 | 3:35:58 | |
apologise... I conclude with this,
my constituency I represent the pain | 3:35:58 | 3:36:03 | |
weapons range and Cape wrath. I hope
very much to see a sixth generation | 3:36:03 | 3:36:11 | |
fighter aircraft flying over my
constituency before they have put me | 3:36:11 | 3:36:14 | |
in a wooden box and carried me away.
Thank you. | 3:36:14 | 3:36:20 | |
This is an issue that matters
fundamentally to me. I have the Puma | 3:36:20 | 3:36:24 | |
Squadron in my constituency in RAF
Benson and are very concerned to | 3:36:24 | 3:36:32 | |
hear questions being raised over the
future of Puma and how it fits into | 3:36:32 | 3:36:37 | |
any strategy we may be thinking of
developing. I think we need to take | 3:36:37 | 3:36:42 | |
account of a proper assessment and
strategy which covers many of the | 3:36:42 | 3:36:46 | |
points raised by the honourable lady
in her initial contribution. The | 3:36:46 | 3:36:51 | |
Puma is not an old aircraft, as is
occasionally stated. All of the | 3:36:51 | 3:36:56 | |
Pumas were found to be in excellent
condition and there is no embedded | 3:36:56 | 3:37:00 | |
in in making -- no impediment of an
out of date date of 2025 later. In | 3:37:00 | 3:37:11 | |
addition to that, you may have to
look at the contribution that these | 3:37:11 | 3:37:15 | |
aircraft have made to operations
around the world, whether deploying | 3:37:15 | 3:37:20 | |
in Afghanistan in support of
operations, or supporting vital aid | 3:37:20 | 3:37:24 | |
in the Caribbean in their recent
hurricane disasters. They have shown | 3:37:24 | 3:37:33 | |
enormous ability to be ready for
operations within a few hours of | 3:37:33 | 3:37:36 | |
arrival and they can make an ideal
platform to support special forces. | 3:37:36 | 3:37:40 | |
A low operating costs, delivering
excellent value for money. If I can | 3:37:48 | 3:37:52 | |
just turn to that, as my final
point, the 260 million contract to | 3:37:52 | 3:37:58 | |
upgrade 24 helicopters was noted by
the National Audit Office as a | 3:37:58 | 3:38:03 | |
programme delivered on time, and to
cost. If I can just finish with a | 3:38:03 | 3:38:09 | |
quote from Commander Major General
Richard Felling. Out of all the | 3:38:09 | 3:38:15 | |
aircraft I have flown, Puma Two made
my jaw dropped the most. Can I | 3:38:15 | 3:38:26 | |
congratulate my honourable friend
for Stoke-on-Trent North and Whitney | 3:38:26 | 3:38:29 | |
for securing this debate. I normally
talk up the Royal Navy when I stand | 3:38:29 | 3:38:33 | |
here, but Plymouth is a proud home
to the makers of gizmos enjoy those | 3:38:33 | 3:38:38 | |
that support our aerospace
industries. The clear ask for both | 3:38:38 | 3:38:42 | |
sides of the House is a clear
long-term strategy or the private | 3:38:42 | 3:38:46 | |
sector, and supply chain can invest
in the jobs and skills required to | 3:38:46 | 3:38:52 | |
supply the RAF and fighting forces
with the most capable equipment to | 3:38:52 | 3:38:55 | |
secure our long-term position. We do
not live in the nine times. That is | 3:38:55 | 3:39:01 | |
important. The context of the
military world needs to be taken | 3:39:01 | 3:39:04 | |
into account in this debate. We are
facing a resurgent Russia investing | 3:39:04 | 3:39:08 | |
in its aerospace, and naval powers.
We need to keep pace with that. The | 3:39:08 | 3:39:14 | |
aircraft coming online shortly are
formidable. We need a long-term | 3:39:14 | 3:39:18 | |
commitment to ensure we have a
generation to come next. I worry | 3:39:18 | 3:39:22 | |
about the sovereign defence key
abilities of this country being | 3:39:22 | 3:39:25 | |
eroded, not by long-term thoughtful
strategy, but by short termism which | 3:39:25 | 3:39:30 | |
is afflicting the gunmen at this
present moment. We need to look | 3:39:30 | 3:39:33 | |
carefully at this, just as the
government minister told me the | 3:39:33 | 3:39:36 | |
apprentice gilding the last of the
frigates has not yet been born, | 3:39:36 | 3:39:42 | |
there is no such parallel in the
aerospace sector. We need to make | 3:39:42 | 3:39:45 | |
sure there is one. Having a new
Defence Secretary offers a chance | 3:39:45 | 3:39:49 | |
for a fresh start. Not only in the
aerospace sector, but considering | 3:39:49 | 3:39:54 | |
cuts to the Royal Navy I have spoken
about elsewhere. The opportunity for | 3:39:54 | 3:39:59 | |
a fresh start and new thinking could
provide certainty for our sector to | 3:39:59 | 3:40:03 | |
invest in the jobs and skills we
absolutely need at the moment. I | 3:40:03 | 3:40:08 | |
feel at times in our aerospace
sector, despite the importance in | 3:40:08 | 3:40:12 | |
the economy, we have had a victory
tactics over strategy. I would | 3:40:12 | 3:40:16 | |
advise the garment to look for a
long-term strategy to secure the | 3:40:16 | 3:40:19 | |
jobs we need. Oh, my goodness. I'm
very grateful to the honourable | 3:40:19 | 3:40:30 | |
members for Stoke North and Whitney
for calling this debate. My | 3:40:30 | 3:40:34 | |
constituency has a historic link to
the British defence, aviation and | 3:40:34 | 3:40:40 | |
defence industry. In Farmborough,
the first British flight was made by | 3:40:40 | 3:40:43 | |
Samuel Cody from Farnborough Heath,
piloting the British Army aeroplane | 3:40:43 | 3:40:48 | |
number one, which he himself had
built. I was the start of a | 3:40:48 | 3:40:53 | |
remarkable industry in and around
Farmborough. Today leaving us a | 3:40:53 | 3:40:57 | |
tremendous legacy. Including the
headquarters of BAE Systems itself, | 3:40:57 | 3:41:01 | |
just a few metres from the very
runway where Samuel Cody took off. | 3:41:01 | 3:41:07 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, it is that
sort of courageous innovation that | 3:41:07 | 3:41:11 | |
needs to be at the heart of a
defence, aviation and aerospace | 3:41:11 | 3:41:14 | |
strategy. Which I fully endorse,
because we have had for such a | 3:41:14 | 3:41:18 | |
strategy to exist. I would like to
mention three things I think are | 3:41:18 | 3:41:23 | |
very important, Madam Deputy
Speaker. In terms of future | 3:41:23 | 3:41:25 | |
strategy. Firstly, an element of
competition is important. Different | 3:41:25 | 3:41:32 | |
providers can bid for work. Driving
up standards and costs down. | 3:41:32 | 3:41:37 | |
Innovation is critical, especially
in critical capabilities we need to | 3:41:37 | 3:41:45 | |
advance on our own terms. Thirdly,
Madam Deputy Speaker, ex-portability | 3:41:45 | 3:41:50 | |
is absolutely fundamental. I am
encouraged by the ex-portability | 3:41:50 | 3:41:55 | |
component of the excellent national
shipbuilding strategy. I would like | 3:41:55 | 3:42:00 | |
to see that sort of ethos in a
future defence, aviation and | 3:42:00 | 3:42:05 | |
aerospace strategy. Being able to
export of world leading defence | 3:42:05 | 3:42:11 | |
exports, not just a matter of good
send jobs, it is a matter of global | 3:42:11 | 3:42:16 | |
standing on a global reach, and our
global power. That was preventing | 3:42:16 | 3:42:23 | |
quick. -- brilliantly quick. Can I
also congratulate the honourable | 3:42:23 | 3:42:31 | |
members for Stoke and Whitney was
during this debate. On the 10th of | 3:42:31 | 3:42:34 | |
October I raised an urgent question
with the speaker on the question of | 3:42:34 | 3:42:40 | |
over 1000 job losses across
Lancashire in the aerospace | 3:42:40 | 3:42:42 | |
industry. Which was addressed on
that occasion. The response was, | 3:42:42 | 3:42:51 | |
obviously, the jobs could not be
maintained, and the principal reason | 3:42:51 | 3:42:53 | |
for that was the order is coming
through were not enough. The | 3:42:53 | 3:43:02 | |
honourable member said quite rightly
we are doing quite well from orders | 3:43:02 | 3:43:04 | |
from the Middle East countries, but
really Typhoon is a world beating | 3:43:04 | 3:43:09 | |
aircraft, it should be sold around
the world. Nobody was more angry and | 3:43:09 | 3:43:12 | |
upset and I was when we did not get
the India contract. I'm sure there | 3:43:12 | 3:43:17 | |
are other contracts with good
cooperation between government and | 3:43:17 | 3:43:19 | |
industry that we could do government
to government deals. In order to | 3:43:19 | 3:43:24 | |
keep the supply of the Typhoons
running. There are two big issues, | 3:43:24 | 3:43:32 | |
facing BAE Systems. One is keeping
the current Typhoon were going. It | 3:43:32 | 3:43:40 | |
has been slowing, the production
lines have slow down. That is mainly | 3:43:40 | 3:43:45 | |
because it is not been sold as much
as we thought it would, and not been | 3:43:45 | 3:43:51 | |
sold in. There is a question of the
sixth generation fighter. The | 3:43:51 | 3:43:55 | |
elephant in the room seems to be who
we collaborate with. The chair of | 3:43:55 | 3:44:00 | |
the defence committee mentioned
himself, we need integration | 3:44:00 | 3:44:06 | |
capabilities. Something we're not
getting a great deal of with the | 3:44:06 | 3:44:14 | |
F-35. We will not get that with our
European neighbours. The French and | 3:44:14 | 3:44:19 | |
Germans need to be candidates, we
have to develop that sixth | 3:44:19 | 3:44:23 | |
generation fighter, and sell it and
select better than we have the | 3:44:23 | 3:44:26 | |
typhoon, to date. Thank you Mbemba
pretty Speaker. I will start by | 3:44:26 | 3:44:32 | |
congratulating the honourable member
for Stoke North for making a | 3:44:32 | 3:44:36 | |
powerful case for the need for a
defence, aerospace and industrial | 3:44:36 | 3:44:39 | |
strategy. For getting us all here on
a Thursday afternoon. It is | 3:44:39 | 3:44:47 | |
remarkable in less than an hour we
have heard from members from New | 3:44:47 | 3:44:52 | |
Forest East, Barrow and Furness,
Filton and Bradley Stoke, Whitney, | 3:44:52 | 3:44:58 | |
Durham North, Sutherland and Easter
Ross, Henley, Plymouth, Aldershot | 3:44:58 | 3:45:01 | |
and Preston. There has been
consensus across the House for the | 3:45:01 | 3:45:07 | |
need for this strategy. BAE's
announcement in October that they | 3:45:07 | 3:45:14 | |
were planning to slow the production
on the Typhoon and Hawk jets, | 3:45:14 | 3:45:24 | |
resulting in job losses, shock to
many of us in this place. In | 3:45:24 | 3:45:27 | |
hindsight, maybe we should not have
been surprised. Without any defence | 3:45:27 | 3:45:32 | |
and industrial strategy, there can
be no certainty industry. Not just | 3:45:32 | 3:45:36 | |
the 2000 BAE workers who will be
effective. That the small and | 3:45:36 | 3:45:43 | |
medium-sized enterprises, supply
chains, local communities, all | 3:45:43 | 3:45:44 | |
feeling the impact of this
announcement. Importantly, we faced | 3:45:44 | 3:45:52 | |
losing key skills from this
industry, at a time when we should | 3:45:52 | 3:45:55 | |
be protecting them, and developing
them. Really this strategy must look | 3:45:55 | 3:45:59 | |
not just at procurement, and plans
for equipment, but how they're going | 3:45:59 | 3:46:04 | |
to ensure we have the skilled
workforce for the future. We have | 3:46:04 | 3:46:10 | |
reckless decisions on the already
affecting the security of our UK. | 3:46:10 | 3:46:16 | |
Russian submarine incursions into
the waters off Scotland's West Coast | 3:46:16 | 3:46:24 | |
are reaching levels we have not seen
since the end of the Cold War. The | 3:46:24 | 3:46:27 | |
former Defence Secretary admitted
this himself, and warned of an | 3:46:27 | 3:46:31 | |
extraordinary increase in Russian
submarine activity in the North | 3:46:31 | 3:46:33 | |
Atlantic. When he gave evidence to
MPs last month. Despite the | 3:46:33 | 3:46:39 | |
warnings, the UK's ability to find
the submarines has been drastically | 3:46:39 | 3:46:43 | |
hampered since the Nimrods were
scrapped six years ago. You see an | 3:46:43 | 3:46:50 | |
American, Canadian and Norwegian
aircraft in UK airspace helping to | 3:46:50 | 3:46:56 | |
pick up the slack. My honourable
friend, the member for West | 3:46:56 | 3:47:03 | |
Dunbartonshire tabled a written
question about this after flight | 3:47:03 | 3:47:06 | |
tracking websites had tracked the
friendly aircraft, thought to be | 3:47:06 | 3:47:09 | |
looking for a vessel at the end of
last month, he asked which Nato | 3:47:09 | 3:47:13 | |
countries provided maritime patrol
aircraft for use in UK airspace? The | 3:47:13 | 3:47:20 | |
Armed Forces Minister admitted
aircraft from the United States and | 3:47:20 | 3:47:24 | |
Canada were temporarily deployed to
RAF Lossiemouth, during the period | 3:47:24 | 3:47:29 | |
in question. This is a fundamental
problem we're having, Apple had to | 3:47:29 | 3:47:36 | |
wait many years fact. The P8s and
can be available in 2024, another | 3:47:36 | 3:47:48 | |
seven years until they are
operational. We can only assume the | 3:47:48 | 3:47:51 | |
Russian incursion will continue. The
government must admit their actions | 3:47:51 | 3:47:55 | |
have an impact. The fall in the
value of the pound has exposed the | 3:47:55 | 3:48:02 | |
taxpayer to increase spending. The
former national security adviser, | 3:48:02 | 3:48:07 | |
Lyall Grant stating the MoD
officials were having to address a | 3:48:07 | 3:48:11 | |
funding shortfall, well before a
final Brexit deal. He said national | 3:48:11 | 3:48:19 | |
security cannot be divorced from
economic security. Putting it at its | 3:48:19 | 3:48:24 | |
most basic if the British economy
suffers as a result of the prospect | 3:48:24 | 3:48:29 | |
and relative Brexit, our ability to
fund the ambitious 2015 Strategic | 3:48:29 | 3:48:36 | |
Defence Review will be at risk.
Whether we continue to spend two | 3:48:36 | 3:48:43 | |
percent of GDP or not. This is
something that has to be considered | 3:48:43 | 3:48:49 | |
as part of the industrial strategy.
We also have to look at the impact | 3:48:49 | 3:48:54 | |
of Brexit. Be you provides important
opportunities for defence research | 3:48:54 | 3:49:00 | |
and innovation, through the single
market, but also three bodies like | 3:49:00 | 3:49:06 | |
the European defence agency. The
government will explore ways UK | 3:49:06 | 3:49:13 | |
industry can maintain its existing
relationship with European | 3:49:13 | 3:49:19 | |
counterparts, and benefit from
collective innovation and joint | 3:49:19 | 3:49:22 | |
projects. The challenge for many
companies is to remain globally | 3:49:22 | 3:49:33 | |
competitive, and this is how
industrial strategy, regardless of | 3:49:33 | 3:49:36 | |
the fence, aerospace or security can
help. The government must for | 3:49:36 | 3:49:42 | |
investment in future skills and
education, promoting | 3:49:42 | 3:49:46 | |
apprenticeships, technical courses,
and building capability for the | 3:49:46 | 3:49:48 | |
future. We need to recognise and
support the regional clusters of | 3:49:48 | 3:49:53 | |
universities, colleges and companies
where collaboration is pushing the | 3:49:53 | 3:49:57 | |
very boundaries of innovation.
Firmino solutions for the defence | 3:49:57 | 3:50:03 | |
sector have been applied to the
civil aerospace sector, creating | 3:50:03 | 3:50:08 | |
potential for significant new
business and economic expansion over | 3:50:08 | 3:50:12 | |
the next decade. Focus on
collaborative programmes in Europe, | 3:50:12 | 3:50:19 | |
US, South America and Asia are
needed to position the UK, or | 3:50:19 | 3:50:24 | |
continue to position the UK is a
global and competitive player. | 3:50:24 | 3:50:30 | |
Finally any strategy for defence
aerospace should ensure access to | 3:50:30 | 3:50:36 | |
the best possible equipment and
capabilities for the UK Armed Forces | 3:50:36 | 3:50:40 | |
is safeguarded. It has been
important to have this debate this | 3:50:40 | 3:50:49 | |
afternoon. I congratulate the
honourable member for Stoke-on-Trent | 3:50:49 | 3:50:52 | |
North, on the opening speech. The
debate has been important, because | 3:50:52 | 3:50:57 | |
of a significance of a defence
aerospace industry to this country | 3:50:57 | 3:51:02 | |
and our nation's defence. This
afternoon I briefly want to make two | 3:51:02 | 3:51:07 | |
points. The second point is about
the need for a well thought out | 3:51:07 | 3:51:10 | |
industrial strategy for the sector.
First I want to refer to the | 3:51:10 | 3:51:16 | |
particular problem that has been
experienced with BAE Systems. As the | 3:51:16 | 3:51:23 | |
member for Preston has set in
October BAE Systems announced up to | 3:51:23 | 3:51:27 | |
1400 jobs would be lost by its
military aerospace business over the | 3:51:27 | 3:51:32 | |
next three years. BAE has said the
cuts will be implemented by the 1st | 3:51:32 | 3:51:37 | |
of January, and will affect managers
as well as production line workers. | 3:51:37 | 3:51:42 | |
At its aerospace bases of parts of
the Eurofighter Typhoon are made and | 3:51:42 | 3:51:52 | |
assemble, there will be 750 losses.
At the other aerospace base in East | 3:51:52 | 3:51:59 | |
Yorkshire, there will be a near
halving of the workforce, to 500. | 3:51:59 | 3:52:04 | |
This is made all the more difficult
because 500 jobs were previously | 3:52:04 | 3:52:10 | |
lost that this site four years ago.
These job losses will have a | 3:52:10 | 3:52:14 | |
devastating impact on the
individuals affected and their | 3:52:14 | 3:52:17 | |
families. It will also hit those
communities which have a long | 3:52:17 | 3:52:22 | |
tradition of providing workers for
the aerospace industry. Moreover, | 3:52:22 | 3:52:26 | |
many of these jobs are highly
specialised, and extremely skilled. | 3:52:26 | 3:52:31 | |
Once those skills have been lost in
the industry it will be enormously | 3:52:31 | 3:52:34 | |
difficult to replace them. As a
member for North Durham has said | 3:52:34 | 3:52:38 | |
quite accurately. | 3:52:38 | 3:52:40 | |
A few days ago my honourable friend
the shadow of Defence Secretary and | 3:52:40 | 3:52:46 | |
other members of the opposition,
wrote to the new Secretary of State | 3:52:46 | 3:52:51 | |
for Defence. The letter made a
number of important points and calls | 3:52:51 | 3:52:55 | |
upon the Government to take action
in a number of areas. The letter | 3:52:55 | 3:53:00 | |
refers to the fact that the Hawk
advanced jet trainer is currently in | 3:53:00 | 3:53:05 | |
use by 18 countries around the world
and it is therefore vital that the | 3:53:05 | 3:53:09 | |
UK does its upmost to provide the
Hawk aircraft as a good option for | 3:53:09 | 3:53:15 | |
other nations as well. I would
therefore like to ask the Minister | 3:53:15 | 3:53:19 | |
what steps the Government are taking
to move the Hawk advanced jet | 3:53:19 | 3:53:26 | |
trainer broadcast at the Hawk is the
aircraft of the iconic Red Arrows. | 3:53:26 | 3:53:31 | |
In a few years' time the Red Arrows
will need new hawks and so it makes | 3:53:31 | 3:53:38 | |
sense for the Government to bring
forward orders for the new Hawk T2s | 3:53:38 | 3:53:44 | |
said there can be continuity of
manufacturer. As the Minister for | 3:53:44 | 3:53:48 | |
procurement will no, there is a
precedent for this. The Government | 3:53:48 | 3:53:52 | |
has brought forward orders for
offshore patrol vessels to fill gaps | 3:53:52 | 3:53:58 | |
in orders. If the Government can do
it once, they can do it twice. | 3:53:58 | 3:54:05 | |
There is also the statement of
intent with Qatar, with the former | 3:54:05 | 3:54:09 | |
Defence Secretary signed for the
purchase of 24 typhoons and six Hawk | 3:54:09 | 3:54:17 | |
aircraft. This was signed earlier in
the year. We want to see this | 3:54:17 | 3:54:23 | |
statement of intent firmed up as
quickly as humanly possible. This | 3:54:23 | 3:54:27 | |
contract is of tremendous importance
and I would be appreciative if the | 3:54:27 | 3:54:31 | |
Minister could update us on any
progress that has been made. | 3:54:31 | 3:54:34 | |
The problems which are being faced
by BAE Systems at the moment served | 3:54:34 | 3:54:39 | |
to highlight the more general
problem of a lack of a defence | 3:54:39 | 3:54:44 | |
aerospace industrial strategy. We
welcome the fact, even belatedly, | 3:54:44 | 3:54:48 | |
the Government has produced a
national shipbuilding strategy. As | 3:54:48 | 3:54:53 | |
the member from Stoke-on-Trent. We
would argue this strategy produced | 3:54:53 | 3:55:01 | |
for the Erw defence -- defence
industry. Such a strategy should | 3:55:01 | 3:55:13 | |
contain a number of elements, for
example, that ought to be full of | 3:55:13 | 3:55:18 | |
engagement of industry so they can
have a more strategic approach, | 3:55:18 | 3:55:25 | |
addressing the present and future
needs of the Armed Forces. There | 3:55:25 | 3:55:29 | |
must be a long-term commitment of
government to development of the | 3:55:29 | 3:55:35 | |
aerospace sector and a long-term
perspective, in order to give | 3:55:35 | 3:55:41 | |
confidence and certainty, which in
turn will encourage business and | 3:55:41 | 3:55:44 | |
investment. There ought to be a
perpetual encouragement for industry | 3:55:44 | 3:55:48 | |
to develop new and innovative
approaches and technologies. This | 3:55:48 | 3:55:52 | |
would be helpful and allow the
Government to give the industry | 3:55:52 | 3:56:00 | |
broom to develop blue sky thinking.
When we look at Brent -- Britain's | 3:56:00 | 3:56:06 | |
national interest, it cannot be
right for Britain to the buying so | 3:56:06 | 3:56:11 | |
many of our capabilities
off-the-shelf, as the member for | 3:56:11 | 3:56:16 | |
Barrow in Furness argued this
afternoon. In place of going for a | 3:56:16 | 3:56:22 | |
short fix, the Government should see
things in the long-term and value | 3:56:22 | 3:56:27 | |
the economic contribution which the
defence industry makes to the | 3:56:27 | 3:56:30 | |
British economy and to the nation's
balance of payments. | 3:56:30 | 3:56:33 | |
Let us not forget, defence
manufacturers in general and the | 3:56:33 | 3:56:39 | |
aerospace sector in particular pay
corporation tax and national | 3:56:39 | 3:56:45 | |
insurance and have subcontractors
and suppliers. In this context, it | 3:56:45 | 3:56:49 | |
has been suggested, as the chair of
the select committee has mentioned, | 3:56:49 | 3:56:56 | |
there ought to be a general
government commitment to an | 3:56:56 | 3:57:03 | |
examination at least the development
of a next generation of combat | 3:57:03 | 3:57:05 | |
aircraft. It has been suggested that
such an aircraft will enter service | 3:57:05 | 3:57:12 | |
in the 23rd twos and replace the
Typhoon class aircraft. I would like | 3:57:12 | 3:57:17 | |
to know what the Government's
position on this suggestion is. | 3:57:17 | 3:57:23 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, today we have
had a good debate on the importance | 3:57:23 | 3:57:26 | |
of it. There can be no doubt that it
is absolutely vital that Britain has | 3:57:26 | 3:57:30 | |
a vibrant Erw defence sector. We
have a workforce of which we can be | 3:57:30 | 3:57:36 | |
proud and an industry which is full
of enthusiasm and commitment. What | 3:57:36 | 3:57:41 | |
we need is a government policy which
is up to the challenges we face. | 3:57:41 | 3:57:49 | |
Thank you very much. It gives me
great pleasure to respond to this | 3:57:49 | 3:57:54 | |
debate this afternoon. Again, I
congratulate the honourable lady for | 3:57:54 | 3:57:57 | |
Stoke-on-Trent North and the
honourable member for Whitney for | 3:57:57 | 3:58:00 | |
securing it. We have heard 14 really
interesting and compelling backbench | 3:58:00 | 3:58:06 | |
contributions over the course of
today's debate. I think I will start | 3:58:06 | 3:58:10 | |
by picking up on some of the general
themes that came out of those | 3:58:10 | 3:58:15 | |
various contributions.
First of all, many members spoke out | 3:58:15 | 3:58:19 | |
on behalf of the incredible work the
BAe work. In their constituency. And | 3:58:19 | 3:58:24 | |
of course, we have heard an urgent
question in recent days on this | 3:58:24 | 3:58:28 | |
subject. It is a decision made by
the company and they are currently | 3:58:28 | 3:58:33 | |
consulting with the workforce, but
as the largest customer I have been | 3:58:33 | 3:58:37 | |
discussing with a company that we
would look to ensure that they would | 3:58:37 | 3:58:41 | |
avoid any compulsory redundancies.
Also, of course, as an employer | 3:58:41 | 3:58:49 | |
ourselves where there may be people
at the right skills that could fit | 3:58:49 | 3:58:52 | |
into our organisation, we are
participating in ongoing discussions | 3:58:52 | 3:58:57 | |
about that. On the subject of the
maritime underwater future | 3:58:57 | 3:59:01 | |
capability, I don't think there is
any honourable gentleman who speaks | 3:59:01 | 3:59:06 | |
up more for his constituents than
the honourable member for Barrow in | 3:59:06 | 3:59:11 | |
Furness but certainly he would
acknowledge there is a very, very | 3:59:11 | 3:59:15 | |
solid pipeline of work in his
constituency for decades to come. I | 3:59:15 | 3:59:20 | |
think from that point of view it
shows the amazing work done by those | 3:59:20 | 3:59:25 | |
who live and work in his
constituency. In terms of the | 3:59:25 | 3:59:29 | |
Maritime underwater future
capability project, that is still | 3:59:29 | 3:59:32 | |
ongoing work and he will have seen
some of the wonderfully imaginative | 3:59:32 | 3:59:35 | |
ideas that came out recently.
In terms of the Hawk pipeline, I can | 3:59:35 | 3:59:42 | |
reassure the House we are continuing
to work on export opportunities, in | 3:59:42 | 3:59:47 | |
terms of Kuwait and India and that
the RAF as 28th of the T2 aircraft | 3:59:47 | 3:59:53 | |
and there is no risk to the Red
Arrows. | 3:59:53 | 3:59:59 | |
A number of colleagues raised the
question of P8, and, of course, that | 3:59:59 | 4:00:04 | |
is a capability whether first were
come into service in 2019. And the | 4:00:04 | 4:00:10 | |
base in the north of Scotland, which
will be good for the local economy. | 4:00:10 | 4:00:17 | |
I want to highlight some of the
excellent UK companies in the supply | 4:00:17 | 4:00:21 | |
chain for the P8. Marshals with
their fuel tanks. Martin Baker with | 4:00:21 | 4:00:26 | |
the crew seats and GE with the
weapons pylons. I won't take any | 4:00:26 | 4:00:31 | |
interventions, just because there is
so little time. My honourable friend | 4:00:31 | 4:00:35 | |
for Henry spoke eloquently about the
excellent humour squadrons in his | 4:00:35 | 4:00:39 | |
constituencies. A number of
colleagues asked about Typhoon. Just | 4:00:39 | 4:00:42 | |
to update the House in terms of
those numbers... Overall, so far, | 4:00:42 | 4:00:47 | |
just over 500 Typhoon have been
built. They are in service and have | 4:00:47 | 4:00:52 | |
been ordered by nine countries
around the world, and there is still | 4:00:52 | 4:00:57 | |
a significant pipeline of Typhoons
to be built, and there has been a | 4:00:57 | 4:01:04 | |
statement of intent signed with
Qatar and government is working as | 4:01:04 | 4:01:07 | |
hard as it can to ensure that those
and the 12 Hawk aircraft up on | 4:01:07 | 4:01:12 | |
contract by the end of the year.
Contributions from across the House | 4:01:12 | 4:01:17 | |
this afternoon have shown that there
is not a corner of our great country | 4:01:17 | 4:01:22 | |
that is untouched by the nationwide
enterprise that is defence | 4:01:22 | 4:01:29 | |
aerospace. We have a rising defence
budget overall, and the strategic | 4:01:29 | 4:01:34 | |
defence and Security review in 2015
set out a 178 billion equipment plan | 4:01:34 | 4:01:39 | |
over the next decade. In the last
year, where we have recorded | 4:01:39 | 4:01:44 | |
numbers, 15-16, we had a spent of
over £2 billion as the MOD with UK | 4:01:44 | 4:01:51 | |
aerospace and that directly
sustained over 7000 jobs. I'm | 4:01:51 | 4:01:54 | |
delighted to be able to announce
today that we have awarded three new | 4:01:54 | 4:01:59 | |
contracts worth £160 million to
provide RAF bases across the country | 4:01:59 | 4:02:04 | |
with export support -- expert
support. As we today's debate, Erw | 4:02:04 | 4:02:12 | |
base -- aerospace strikes a chord.
There is the historical collection, | 4:02:12 | 4:02:18 | |
the fact we have 100 years of the
Royal Air Force coming up in the | 4:02:18 | 4:02:22 | |
next year, and we know that our
country would be a very different | 4:02:22 | 4:02:25 | |
place were it not for the immense
intervention of air power in World | 4:02:25 | 4:02:30 | |
War I and in particular in the
Battle of Britain in World War II. | 4:02:30 | 4:02:34 | |
Indeed, the current crop of aircraft
experts in the UK have that | 4:02:34 | 4:02:39 | |
worldwide leadership reputation. We
have some of the most technically | 4:02:39 | 4:02:42 | |
advanced and technically advanced
companies in the world. It is an | 4:02:42 | 4:02:47 | |
engine of local and national
prosperity. Up to 2500 UK companies | 4:02:47 | 4:02:51 | |
are involved in it and it generates
more than £33 billion worth of | 4:02:51 | 4:02:56 | |
turnover, employing more than
120,000 people, including 26,000 | 4:02:56 | 4:03:02 | |
just in research, design and
engineering. Interestingly, more | 4:03:02 | 4:03:07 | |
than 80% of that production is
actually exported. Of the £64 | 4:03:07 | 4:03:11 | |
billion brought into this country
through defence-related exports in | 4:03:11 | 4:03:15 | |
the last decade, some 85% of it was
generated by aerospace and much from | 4:03:15 | 4:03:21 | |
the combat air sector. Crucially, as
the honourable member for Stoke | 4:03:21 | 4:03:25 | |
North mentioned, we are using our
kit in places like Iraq today, a | 4:03:25 | 4:03:32 | |
combination of tornadoes and
Typhoons have helped to bring Daesh | 4:03:32 | 4:03:41 | |
to its knees. I'm sure honourable
members will want to join me in | 4:03:41 | 4:03:45 | |
paying tribute to all those brave
men and women who are currently | 4:03:45 | 4:03:48 | |
serving on our aircrews on
deployment. | 4:03:48 | 4:03:53 | |
We are absolutely right to celebrate
the aerospace sector but we also | 4:03:53 | 4:03:56 | |
need to talk about the future.
Typhoon, as I said, has been | 4:03:56 | 4:04:01 | |
selected by nine National air forces
and we are currently pursuing export | 4:04:01 | 4:04:06 | |
to Bahrain, Belgium, Finland, the
Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Malaysia | 4:04:06 | 4:04:14 | |
and, of course, Qatar. Other Typhoon
nations are also exploring export to | 4:04:14 | 4:04:18 | |
other countries. In terms of looking
ahead, not just one or two years in | 4:04:18 | 4:04:25 | |
terms of the export pipeline, we
need to look ahead decades, because | 4:04:25 | 4:04:28 | |
we know our Typhoon aircraft are
going to go out of service in 2040. | 4:04:28 | 4:04:38 | |
The 2015 SRS in marked money for
precisely in order to protect and | 4:04:38 | 4:04:46 | |
develop key design and engineering
skills within our industrial base. | 4:04:46 | 4:04:51 | |
It includes funding for a national
programme to maintain the UK's | 4:04:51 | 4:04:54 | |
position as a global leader in this
area. Some of the work is with | 4:04:54 | 4:04:58 | |
France and some is with the US, Tim
at your other high-end technologies. | 4:04:58 | 4:05:03 | |
So the decision, in terms of the
future combat air, will require us | 4:05:03 | 4:05:08 | |
to decide at some stage to replace
the capabilities currently delivered | 4:05:08 | 4:05:14 | |
by Eurofighter Typhoon. It will be a
complex decision, requiring the | 4:05:14 | 4:05:19 | |
clear military requirement and
detailed consideration of the | 4:05:19 | 4:05:22 | |
industrial and financial
implications. In terms of the timing | 4:05:22 | 4:05:25 | |
of the decision, it will be made in
the very early 2020s or sooner, to | 4:05:25 | 4:05:31 | |
enable a main gate in the
procurement around 2025. In | 4:05:31 | 4:05:36 | |
conclusion, this is a key sector. We
have had a very good debates, | 4:05:36 | 4:05:40 | |
highlighting a number of the
different issues in the sector. Our | 4:05:40 | 4:05:44 | |
approach to the defence aerospace
industry should be one of overall | 4:05:44 | 4:05:49 | |
industrial strategy, taking into
account the business leaders, and | 4:05:49 | 4:05:56 | |
the local economy and we must ensure
whatever dangers to come, this great | 4:05:56 | 4:06:00 | |
industry we have been discussing
today continues to fly even higher, | 4:06:00 | 4:06:03 | |
faster and further in the future.
Thank you very much. Before I start | 4:06:03 | 4:06:10 | |
can I apologise to the House
customer and should have directed | 4:06:10 | 4:06:12 | |
everyone to my registered members
interests. Can I thank all of you | 4:06:12 | 4:06:18 | |
for participating today. I thank the
Minister for her contribution. I'm a | 4:06:18 | 4:06:21 | |
little concerned I didn't hear the
words "We will have a defence | 4:06:21 | 4:06:26 | |
aerospace industrial strategy". I
hope she will be returning to the | 4:06:26 | 4:06:30 | |
House at some point in the next few
weeks after consulting with | 4:06:30 | 4:06:32 | |
colleagues to inform us when we will
have a defence aerospace industrial | 4:06:32 | 4:06:37 | |
strategy. Thank you for the debate.
I hope everyone recognises this is a | 4:06:37 | 4:06:41 | |
new opportunity to be -- relaunch
the need for industrial strategy | 4:06:41 | 4:06:46 | |
moving forward.
The question is this house has | 4:06:46 | 4:06:53 | |
considered defence aerospace
industrial strategy. As many as are | 4:06:53 | 4:06:55 | |
of the opinion, say "aye". To the
contrary, "no". The ayes have it, | 4:06:55 | 4:07:01 | |
the ayes have it. Point of order, Mr
Bernhard. | 4:07:01 | 4:07:08 | |
I wish to place on record my
unreserved apologies to the House | 4:07:08 | 4:07:14 | |
for my conduct earlier. I was
irritated by something that was said | 4:07:14 | 4:07:19 | |
and I allowed my irritation to get
the better of me and approach the | 4:07:19 | 4:07:24 | |
opposition front bench and apologise
unreservedly to the opposition of | 4:07:24 | 4:07:27 | |
the House and have apologised to the
member in question and I believe he | 4:07:27 | 4:07:30 | |
accepted my apology. | 4:07:30 | 4:07:36 | |
I thank the honourable gentleman for
his point of order and courteous and | 4:07:36 | 4:07:39 | |
unreserved apology. Which is noted
by the whole House. We now come to | 4:07:39 | 4:07:47 | |
motion number two on the
intelligence and Security committee | 4:07:47 | 4:07:50 | |
of Parliament. Madam Deputy Speaker
I beg to move the motion in the name | 4:07:50 | 4:07:56 | |
of the Prime Minister of the order
paper. Under section one of the | 4:07:56 | 4:07:59 | |
Justice and Security cat Terry
Matichak the security and | 4:07:59 | 4:08:05 | |
intelligence committee are nominated
by the pro-minister and appointed by | 4:08:05 | 4:08:08 | |
the prospective House. The Prime
Minister has nominated the members | 4:08:08 | 4:08:11 | |
following the required consultations
with the leader of Her | 4:08:11 | 4:08:14 |