16/11/2017 House of Commons


16/11/2017

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conduct of what ministers say is not

a matter for me, nor is it a matter

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for me whether the honourable

gentleman stays in his place. But,

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let us move that very matter. For we

now come to the backbench motion on

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the roll-out of Universal Credit. I

promise a Frank Field to move the

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motion.

Thank you. I rise on the

motion to present to this House the

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select committee report on the

roll-out of Universal Credit,

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although I think some of this would

not like to use roll-out of an

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appropriate name for what is

actually happening to Universal

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Credit in our constituencies. But I

want to give thanks to the backbench

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committee that gave us the

opportunity to raise this really

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important topic that is now

affecting a growing number of

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constituents, my constituents. The

new horror began the Universal

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Credit was fully rolled out

yesterday. I want to begin by

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confessing my own inadequacies. I am

sure most of this, if not all of us,

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when we get out to debate in this

great place, reflect on how we

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simply do not have the language to

match up to the tasks that we are

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trying to present through this

chamber to the nation on what is

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happening. I have to say it is the

most important debate that I have

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ever participated in in nearly 40

years as the member of Parliament

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for Birkenhead and I have never more

felt the inadequacies of the

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language I have to try and tell the

House what horror is happening now

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to a growing number of my

constituents. And what is called

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this welfare reform programme. I

will speak briefly, I promise you if

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I don't get lots of like last

Tuesday.

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LAUGHTER

I want to do it briefly around five

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themes, predict things. One is we

already can report -- brief scenes.

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Report on the role law of credit of

Universal Credit without its full

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roll-out. Secondly, the chaos that

now presents itself in my

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constituency as organised chaos.

Secondly I really want to look at

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what is the national impact of what

is going to be a growing crash and

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smash of many decent and honourable

people's lives. Fourthly, the one

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reform that all of this on the

select committee came to, not the

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only one we present, but we thought

with the evidence we have, it is not

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what we think or feel, that the

biggest change that the Government

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could make is which is in from six

weeks to four weeks. Then I might

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touch on the long-term reforms. When

I saw the minister at the copy

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machine yesterday and he kindly told

me she would be replying, I said,

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you know, that I had asked for times

the question already that the

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Secretary of State, who I am sorry

is not here today, because I'm sure

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there is no such more important task

for him. Seriously, on he has gone

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about his career in this House, this

is an issue of such national

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importance, for the Secretary of

State not to be here in itself says

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something pretty big. Five times I

have asked him, he tells me, go back

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home and say it is all OK, don't

worry it will be rolled out fine.

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The food bank says we need 15 tonnes

more food. Who are we to believe?

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Might I just therefore tell the

House to begin with, one case which

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began some time ago, they turned to

their MP for help yesterday, it is

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an historic case. It was of a

gentleman that had waited, waited

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and waited for an operation at our

local hospital. That operation was

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taking place when he was told to

turn up for an interview at a job

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Centre plus. He was sanctioned. A

friend befriending him reported in

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yesterday that this constituent of

mine is now homeless and while being

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homeless, struggling to recover from

that surgery. So, let me now turn to

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that, the five examples of the

horrors that are happening to

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Birkenhead under the existing

system. Simplified and manageable we

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were told. I don't want to speak

long, we can give yards of cases for

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what is actually happening to our

constituents. Constituent one let's

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call them. They made three

applications online. When they

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finally got through they were told,

no application had been received.

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Six weeks from the third application

being made where they then paid. Six

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weeks from the third application.

They had three children to feed.

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They were hungry. Example two. That

my constituent had twice attempted

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to apply online. Twice the

application had been lost. A further

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eight weeks they waited before

money. They were hungry. Constituent

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three that had a four-year-old

daughter who had waited two months

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for Universal Credit to be

processed. Tried the hotline six

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times, but a new system was in place

and it took them several days to

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phone her back. She was then told,

wow, no claim could be found. A

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payment date was pushed back a

further 11 days. My constituent and

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her daughter went hungry. I

willingly give way.

Very gracious of

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him to give way. These are

heartbreaking and unacceptable

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accounts. But could he help me in

this respect, when I met with the

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citizens advice bureau, we have

Universal Credit rolled out in July,

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now they are making arrangements

with all relevant authorities, so

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that these very examples do not

exist. My question to the right

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honourable gentleman, did these

constituents come to him at the end

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of the ghastly process or earlier

on, if they had come early on, we as

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MPs all have exactly the access to

speed it up, would he agree that he

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should be doing this now before it

comes out in our areas?

I could not

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agree more, though being here a

little longer than the right

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honourable lady, I never thought as

an MP that I would be speaking like

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this about this, with my job adapted

in this way. Of course, we have had

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summits, we are continuing to have

summits, bringing all the people

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together, including Jobcentre plus,

to try to prevent this happening,

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even despite those efforts, these

are the cases of horror that are

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resulting and that I am presenting

to the house. Constituent four

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waited 12 months for Universal

Credit, the Secretary of State,

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bless him, not here today, admitted

some error had occurred, my

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constituent is sinking in debt,

despite the role of CAB, MPs, food

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banks, welfare rights advisers are

in, yes. Constituent five, migrated

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to Universal Credit from housing

benefit, housing benefit stopped

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immediately, they waited seven weeks

for Universal Credit, when it came,

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there was no housing component.

Again, this constituent risks being

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a evicted.

Incredibly powerful case.

Even if the system worked perfect, I

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have been contacted by constituent

in Walthamstow desperately terrified

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by their rent arrears, they know

that any delay in getting amendments

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they will hit that thousand pounds

mark, even when the system works

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personally, these inherent delays

push us back about them into debt

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which will cost us all more.

We will

come onto touching briefly about the

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reforms that we want and that we

will push for and review in the

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select committee but it must be

based on evidence. The evidence is

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melting.

I'm a dreamy grateful in

giving way again, the Times has

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reported today that property

companies are doing pre-emptive

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evictions. -- I'm very grateful for

the honourable member giving way.

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The Times is reporting this today,

it is happening in the front line,

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pre-emptive evictions for those on

Universal Credit. What impact will

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this have on already vulnerable

claimants of Universal Credit?

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Shameful!

As my honourable friend...

Four East London... And for Hove, on

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the coast... Both of these

statements are true and I am sure

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they will catch you. Can I touch on

the support, every Tom Dick and

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Harry organisation seems to be

bedded in the system, Jobcentre

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officials say even when the system

is up and running, as in Birkenhead,

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claims are closed down in error, and

it takes them several months to

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rebuild that claim. There is no

money during that... I want

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everybody to get in, but I am so

anxious to get through this, can I

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move on. Despite my real affection

for people who I know have fought

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the battle hard on this, I do really

wish to pursue. I have got four

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constituents who have had claims

closed down, only to imaginable

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consequences of what that has meant

for their lives. One of their

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landlords has said, I don't want to

evict the tenant, however, I might

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be left with no choice. That's

tenant in question has said, I am

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not only behind with my rent, with

my council tax, all I have got to

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live off is on child benefit, and

the school has been so worried about

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the welfare of my son that my sister

offered to take the sun into her

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household so that the child was not

taken into care. I might be able to

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later on, but I want everyone to

have their chance to speak if I may.

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One example of a lad who asked huge

difficulty took a part-time job, the

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pride of the job, walking out in the

morning knowing at the end of the

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week you were going to bring home a

wage packet, at the end of the week,

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not for weeks, not six weeks, the

end of the week, a wage packet. The

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transformation in him, the Jobcentre

decided that he was not trying hard

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enough to get a job. So they

sanctioned him, took his money away,

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he then could not exist on the money

from his job, he now has no money.

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He is well on his way to

destitution. What then, as my third

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theme, is the national impact of

this slow motion crash. For us. But

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a high-speed crash for constituents,

what has the trust will trust told

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us about the impact from around the

country of this roll-out of

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Universal Credit? We must remember,

Castle trust is the trade union of

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only half of our food banks, so to

speak, thereof port, that they need

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1500 additional tonnes of food for

the coming year. That they will need

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an additional 2000 tonnes of food to

take on the consequences now of

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Universal Credit. In Birkenhead, as

I said, 15 tonnes of food will be

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needed in the coming year. So we

know that this slow crash has

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evolved, coming out weeks, we knew

it was going to happen, and now, it

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has actually begun in Birkenhead

yesterday. That, really, is why the

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select committee, in one mind, on

the evidence that it received, said

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that the most important thing that

the government could do, well there

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are many things to do, but there was

one thing that stood out from our

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evidence, we wanted them to do, as

quickly as possible, that was to

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reduce the weight from six weeks

maximum 24 weeks maximum. Indeed,

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the first 133 submissions to the

select committee told us that the

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six weeks wait is the main force

pushing people to know food, risking

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everything, and on the brink of

destitution. And it is not a

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surprise, is it, Minister, when your

data from your old department, the

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Treasury, tells us that more than

half of low and middle income

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families have no savings at all to

fall back on. Two thirds of us have

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less than a month is savings to tide

us over in a crisis. The idea that

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families can wait for six weeks...!

The most vulnerable people that we

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have the honour to represent in this

house... That idea is... Well, in

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the cold light of day, you wonder

how any decent set of people... The

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great architect of this reform is

not now in this place, he was

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earlier on... The member for

Chingford... The idea he ever wanted

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this result for this reform, I hope

he welcome back and tell us, why,

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when he failed to fend off cuts from

the previous Chancellor of the

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Exchequer, why he could not ever,

ever, ever have envisaged that this

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is where a reform of noble intent

should actually end, in this set of

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personal nightmares for

constituents. Let me begin to

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conclude, if I may, there are also

of course but we do not have the

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evidence on the select committee,

for these, but we may get the

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evidence, to persuade us all, to

have a united report, but for me, it

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seems to be five obvious reforms

that we now need to build on to

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Universal Credit, as well as that

forward weight. First of all, if

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Scotland can have two weekly

payments, why can't England have

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two-weekly payments? Northern

Ireland will get payments every two

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weeks, why can't Wales get payments

every two weeks. I thank Scotland

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for negotiating itself contracted

agreement, to show that what was

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thought to be " impossible" is only

possible, once you pressure is

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applied. You'd thanks to them. But

we also want rents paid directly,

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people wish that. Thirdly, we want

the DWP automatically to tell local

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authorities and housing associations

that their tenants will be pushed

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into debt... That is not our job, it

is not the CAD's job, it is the

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department's job to be doing that,

we know that under the current

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system, babies and toddlers are

going without healthy vouchers, and

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children without free school meals

because the data that was separately

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held but is now held in Universal

Credit, which could be given to

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local authorities, is not. Could

that terrible nonsense please come

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to an end. And then lastly, I had a

fight, and members with me had a

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fight, when the government took off

the statute book that the duty of

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the Secretary of State and the DWP

was to promote the welfare of

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claimants. They said it was not

necessary, tidying up the statute

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book... We are all in favour... Who

could possibly be against promoting

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the welfare of claimants, and might

argue was that if it is so

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unnecessary, let's leave it on, in

case. The current sanctions policy

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could never, ever, ever have worked,

without, if that power on the

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Secretary of State to be concerned

with the welfare of claimants had

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existed. Because we know the

Secretary of State delegates to

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every person working in the DWP

offices, as to carry out that

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discretion on behalf of the

Secretary of State. As you know, I

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was as tough as old boots about

needing sanctions, people had to

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actually apply by the rules. But the

idea that we have sanctions without

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anybody in the office being able to

exercise discretion is an appalling

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combination. And to be presented as

an officer, with some be you can

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ring the hospital and find I was

actually on the operating table when

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you actually wanted me here for an

interview. Please don't sanction

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me... And the sanction is

automatically applied, because there

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is no discretion... That should end.

Therefore, a clique, to the

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unbelievably decent minister, who is

going to reply. There is mutterings,

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he says he is appalled, doesn't need

to happen, why it will not happen...

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On the record, I want him on the

record when he comes to reply, and I

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will end on this, this is the fifth

time of asking the Treasury bench.

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The government tells me that the

roll-out of Universal Credit in

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Birkenhead is going hunky-dory...

That all the things that I have

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tried to represent, all the please

about the food bank, about can we

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raise 15 tonnes more food, that that

is scaremongering... Will he now

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answer the question, when he comes

to reply, are they still as

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confident as they were when I first

asked the question, months away from

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the universal roll-out, or do I go

home and roll up my sleeves am a

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with those, with the food bank,

trying to raise 15 tonnes more food,

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to prevent families being engulfed

in hunger this Christmas and beyond

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of undue proportion? It is a

national scandal, which the

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government could stop, will it,

please?

The question is, as on the

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order paper, I am delighted to call,

to make his maiden speech...

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Mr David Dukitt. It is my maiden

speech, I have just started engaging

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with my local citizens advice and

job centres, on this subject, in

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preparation for roll-out in my

constituency, in much the same way

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as my right honourable friend.

Madame Deputy Speaker, I am proud

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and honoured to have been elected to

represent the people here in this

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place, I have already spoken on the

beauty of their own Scottish

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constituencies. -- David Duguid.

Being the last Scottish Conservative

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to deliver my maiden speech, I can

now save definitively that Banff and

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Buchan is the most beautiful!

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I would like to take this

opportunity to pay tribute to my

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predecessor. She worked hard for her

constituents as well as in this

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Parliament. Earlier this year she

became the first SNP member to...

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Enhanced to protect victims of

domestic abuse. I'm sure the whole

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house will thank her for her

contribution and wish you well in

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the future. However, it was clear to

me and my colleagues from the

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north-east of Scotland, from the

election results in June, that the

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people of north-east Scotland do not

want another independence

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referendum. On top of that,

regardless of how they voted in the

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EU referendum, and for information

my own constituency did vote to

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leave the EU. The electorate made it

clear that they wanted the

0:23:510:23:56

Government to get on and deliver

Brexit. I delivered all I could in

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supporting and influencing

Government to get the best deal for

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Scotland. Leaving the EU presents

great opportunities for the two main

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industries that define my

constituencies, fishing and farming.

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As we leave the EU we will leave the

common fisheries policy, and as we

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do we will regain complete control

to our fishing waters out to 200

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nautical miles. We have two of the

largest fishing points in Europe.

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Peterhead is supplying the north sea

oil and gas as well as offshore wind

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projects. Food processing is in my

constituency with exports across

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Europe and beyond including America

and a stranger. The other key

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industry in my constituency is

agriculture. And I am bound to say

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that we have some of the best

grazing land available which

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produces the best Scotch beef and

lamb. The topic of food and in in

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Scotland cannot pass without

mentioning Scotch Whisky. Although

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there are relatively few

distilleries located in my

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constituency, a lot of mock barley

is growing there. Many of my

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constituents and those across the

north-east of Scotland are employed,

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as I was, for 25 years in the oil

and gas industry. Workers from

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across Scotland community and Dean

or offshore. Many work in related

0:25:260:25:33

manufacturing engineering and

related services not just in

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Aberdeen. Many of these businesses

were started by local entrepreneurs

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and I still family-owned and grown

into the biggest employers in the

0:25:410:25:43

area. Some have won UK national

awards for the focus on training in

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young people. I therefore find it

incredible that a constituency that

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is home to so many entrepreneurs,

small and medium businesses, that

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contributes greatly to the food,

drink and energy sectors has one of

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the slowest average broadband speeds

in the country. The average download

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speed of 6 megabits per second can

only be drained by many of my

0:26:070:26:11

constituents. They will get one or

two if they get any at all. This

0:26:110:26:18

lack of connectivity hampers

business growth, discourages people

0:26:180:26:22

from coming to live in the area and

I have made it one of my top

0:26:220:26:26

priorities to pressure governments

on both sides of the border to

0:26:260:26:30

deliver an acceptable minimum

broadband performance across rule

0:26:300:26:39

areas not just towns and cities. But

as these become more and more the

0:26:390:26:45

norm, including applications to

Universal Credit, many people still

0:26:450:26:51

do not have access to broadband,

this is not acceptable. Broadband is

0:26:510:26:56

rapidly becoming an essential

service for every business, school,

0:26:560:26:59

hospital and household, no matter

where they are located. Another

0:26:590:27:08

strong industry is tourism. Our

coast across the north-east of

0:27:080:27:11

Scotland is unlike any other in the

British Isles. Rugged cliffs home to

0:27:110:27:21

birdlife including an important

gannet colony. Our shoreline is

0:27:210:27:31

regularly visited by porpoises,

dolphins and occasionally come back

0:27:310:27:35

or killer whale. -- humpback. In

summary, my constituency is a great

0:27:350:27:46

place to live, however some of the

standard of some public services,

0:27:460:27:51

education and health, have taken a

kid back in recent years under an

0:27:510:27:56

S&P Government obsessed with

pursuing independence at any cost.

0:27:560:28:04

Shops lying empty, particularly in

coastal areas. In conclusion, like

0:28:040:28:14

the members on the benches opposite,

I welcome the opportunity to have

0:28:140:28:18

strong voices, Scottish voices, in

this House. With that said, I am

0:28:180:28:22

especially glad to be one of the 12

additional Scottish Conservative

0:28:220:28:26

voices on this site. Thank you.

It

would be obvious to the House that a

0:28:260:28:35

great many people want to speak and

we have limited time. So I have to

0:28:350:28:40

have an immediate time limit of six

minutes.

Can I first of all

0:28:400:28:45

congratulate the honourable member

on what was a really powerful maiden

0:28:450:28:52

speech. He makes a really good case

for getting up to visit, I will be

0:28:520:29:02

booking a trip as soon as possible

to taste the Whisky, see the

0:29:020:29:04

wildlife that he is talking about,

he is a wonderful advocate for the

0:29:040:29:08

area. If I might also say, that the

honourable gentleman looked

0:29:080:29:13

incredibly confident and relaxed

giving a speech. I think back to how

0:29:130:29:17

nervous I felt in my maiden speech,

and you did yours like an old pro. I

0:29:170:29:21

think we can look forward...

Seasoned might be a better term. We

0:29:210:29:29

can look forward to many more

excellent contributions and I wish

0:29:290:29:32

him very well in his career in this

House. I would also like to thank my

0:29:320:29:37

honourable friend the member for

Birkenhead for raising this very

0:29:370:29:42

important issue in the House today.

Croydon was one of the first borough

0:29:420:29:47

is where Universal Credit has been

rolled out so we can see what an

0:29:470:29:55

utter disaster it has become. I have

a long and growing stream of people

0:29:550:29:59

coming into my office, many of them

close to tears, because Universal

0:29:590:30:03

Credit has forced them into debt,

made it harder for them to stay in

0:30:030:30:08

work, or left many of them facing

eviction for rent arrears. Our local

0:30:080:30:12

council has had to spend £3 million

so far to stop people being evicted

0:30:120:30:18

because of late payments for rent.

Local food banks are running out of

0:30:180:30:22

food because of the vast increase of

people who if you are going hungry

0:30:220:30:27

because of what the Government

scheme has done to them. Over 1000

0:30:270:30:31

tenants in Croydon now have rent

arrears of over three months and are

0:30:310:30:35

at risk of losing their home because

of the failures of Universal Credit.

0:30:350:30:42

Do they agree with me that one of

the problems, not the only one, is

0:30:420:30:47

problems with the IT of Universal

Credit isn't yet working properly?

I

0:30:470:30:53

absolutely agree. He races at very

important point. I cannot for the

0:30:530:30:59

life of me understand why the

Government insists on ploughing

0:30:590:31:01

ahead when it is quite clear that

the IT system is not fit for

0:31:010:31:05

purpose. They should pause it, fix

it and before they inflict this

0:31:050:31:09

damage on any more people. According

to my own council figures, a tenant

0:31:090:31:13

on housing benefit the previous

legacy system, had an account that

0:31:130:31:21

was £42 incredible in balance. Under

Universal Credit for people moving

0:31:210:31:25

to that system, the average tenant

has a balance £722 in arrears. This

0:31:250:31:32

is supposed to be a system that is

helping though income families, but

0:31:320:31:36

instead it is forcing them into debt

and forcing them out of their homes.

0:31:360:31:40

I would like to share just ate few

short examples from my... I'm sure

0:31:400:31:49

we will have many more. I had one

constituent come to me does in £400

0:31:490:31:54

in debt and two months rent of years

because of errors in Universal

0:31:540:31:57

Credit and she had no money left to

buy food for her family or to heed

0:31:570:32:01

her home. Another was a mother of

five children who was left waiting

0:32:010:32:05

nine weeks for her payment. She

works part time and is desperate to

0:32:050:32:10

keep working. She wants to do

exactly what the Government tells us

0:32:100:32:13

she should be doing but the new

system as let her down and pushed

0:32:130:32:17

into debt. A pregnant mother with

two young children came to see me.

0:32:170:32:21

She was not eating properly because

of debt, posing a serious risk, not

0:32:210:32:26

just her but her unborn child. She

had no option but to take out

0:32:260:32:30

several high interest payday loans

and has been threatened with

0:32:300:32:34

eviction because of under payments.

It is outrageous to lead anyone in

0:32:340:32:40

those circumstances, leave alone a

pregnant woman. I would like to

0:32:400:32:44

raise a particular problem that is

affecting severely disabled people.

0:32:440:32:47

Universal Credit does not include a

severe disability premium, despite

0:32:470:32:52

the work of the DWP raising concerns

about precisely that earlier this

0:32:520:32:58

year, but the Government has done

absolutely nothing. Under the

0:32:580:33:02

current system, a person with severe

disabilities and receiving implement

0:33:020:33:07

support allowance and a premium

would get £172 a week. Andy

0:33:070:33:11

Universal Credit that is cut to £146

a week. I became aware of this

0:33:110:33:17

because of the citizens advice

bureau who referred to meet a

0:33:170:33:20

claimant with severe mental health

who moved on to Universal Credit

0:33:200:33:23

when he became liable for housing

costs. The effect was that he lost

0:33:230:33:27

over £100 for benefits that covered

his living expenses with no

0:33:270:33:33

additional protection because he had

a change of circumstances. When you

0:33:330:33:37

have so little income, that scale of

financial loss is utterly

0:33:370:33:40

devastating. Now, Universal Credit

is a unmitigated disaster for

0:33:400:33:48

hundreds of the most vulnerable

people living in Croydon. If this is

0:33:480:33:57

not fixed in those hundreds will

become thousands. People cannot

0:33:570:34:01

cope. What kind of system is that

penalises the poor and forces people

0:34:010:34:06

out of jobs and onto benefits and

into food banks? The minister here

0:34:060:34:12

today must do what the House has

instructed them to do when we voted

0:34:120:34:15

on it recently. They must pause and

fix the system before it devastate

0:34:150:34:20

any more lives.

It is a pleasure to

contribute and to speak on this

0:34:200:34:31

important matter. In particular I

would like to pay tribute to my

0:34:310:34:36

honourable friend, and I agree with

the honourable member from Croydon.

0:34:360:34:42

He gave a confident speech of a

young professional, a generous

0:34:420:34:48

tribute to his predecessor and in

particular I appreciated his

0:34:480:34:51

comments on broadband. I look

forward to campaigning alongside him

0:34:510:34:55

to ensure that all our rural areas

have adequate access to broadband. I

0:34:550:35:00

look forward to is further

contributions in this place. I

0:35:000:35:05

strongly support Universal Credit

and I am pleased that this debate is

0:35:050:35:08

the third or fourth that we have had

in the last month in this place.

0:35:080:35:13

Because it gives me the opportunity

to reiterate my for Universal

0:35:130:35:15

Credit. I am firmly of the view, as

are most people on this side of the

0:35:150:35:24

House, that work should always pay.

That is the principle that

0:35:240:35:29

underlines Universal Credit. And the

passion that there is on this side

0:35:290:35:33

of the House to ensure that more

people get into work, are supported

0:35:330:35:36

into work, and once there get on and

get ever more work in terms of hours

0:35:360:35:45

and in terms of quality of work. I

would be delighted to give way.

I'm

0:35:450:35:50

grateful. Does he recognise and

remember that the Labour Party in

0:35:500:35:53

the early days of Universal Credit

when it was first mooted, was

0:35:530:35:58

supportive of the concept behind

Universal Credit, but said it needed

0:35:580:36:01

to be rolled out in a longer period

rather than one parliament and that

0:36:010:36:06

piloting needed to be much more

detailed to get the system right and

0:36:060:36:09

waiting. These are the issues that

have gone wrong and in inflicting

0:36:090:36:16

misery on a constituent. I will come

that in due course. But I wish the

0:36:160:36:24

Labour Party would speak up more

loudly for their principle behind

0:36:240:36:28

Universal Credit. Because actually

what it sounds like at the moment is

0:36:280:36:32

not the call for delay, it doesn't

sound like a call for a pause, it

0:36:320:36:36

sounds like a call for a scrap. And

the Labour Party has opposed every

0:36:360:36:41

single benefit change that this

Government has brought into effect

0:36:410:36:44

and would have cost tens of billions

of pounds. But more importantly,

0:36:440:36:49

isn't is not about the money. It is

about the people. It is about

0:36:490:36:53

encouraging people to get into work.

I would be honoured to give way.

I

0:36:530:36:58

am really pleased to see his support

for Universal Credit despite failing

0:36:580:37:02

to vote for it the other week. That

would he also support a renewed

0:37:020:37:06

project to study Universal Credit

support to get people into work. The

0:37:060:37:12

DWP has delayed and denied the

opportunity to review that study to

0:37:120:37:16

prove whether it is still working or

not, because there is a lot of

0:37:160:37:19

expectation that it isn't.

0:37:190:37:25

I am chairman of the or

parliamentary group for youth

0:37:250:37:28

employment. I want to use any

mechanism there is to encourage

0:37:280:37:32

everyone to get into work. We had a

meeting of our all-party group and

0:37:320:37:37

perhaps he would listen to the

response rather than exchanging

0:37:370:37:39

across. I will speak up, but if he

does stop talking, he might be able

0:37:390:37:45

to listen more easily. He is more

than welcome to come along to our

0:37:450:37:52

meetings. We had our meeting

yesterday, and each month we track

0:37:520:37:59

those figures. It was pleasing to

see that even yesterday, we still

0:37:590:38:07

have record numbers of youth in

employment and record lows of young

0:38:070:38:11

people who are out of work.

Yesterday, the figures showed 11.9%

0:38:110:38:16

were in touching distance, with the

lowest on comparable records. This

0:38:160:38:20

is almost half the use and

employment rate that it was in 2011,

0:38:200:38:25

when it was over 22% after the

disastrous Labour government.

Does

0:38:250:38:31

this he agree with me that on the

subject of creating jobs through

0:38:310:38:36

Universal Credit, studies have shown

that it is forecast to create 400

0:38:360:38:40

jobs in every constituency across

the country? Does he welcomed this?

0:38:400:38:46

I warmly welcome that. I look

forward to the time when we debate

0:38:460:38:50

it and are looking back and saying

that this has been a success. Don't

0:38:500:38:54

get me wrong, we are not trying to

pretend that all is rosy and that

0:38:540:38:59

there are no errors, quite the

opposite. Those on the side of the

0:38:590:39:02

House as members opposite want to

make sure that it works and I want

0:39:020:39:06

to ensure that the minister is

testing and learning and that we are

0:39:060:39:14

constantly improving the system. But

on Universal Credit, I support any

0:39:140:39:22

principle that encourages more

people into work. The honourable

0:39:220:39:25

gentleman is about to leave the

chamber, but he can read it in

0:39:250:39:28

Hansard tomorrow. And he has sat

down! I said I would come back to

0:39:280:39:37

the Labour Party record. When the

Labour Party were in power, I had a

0:39:370:39:41

member of my community who came to

me and said he had chosen not to

0:39:410:39:44

take a job because it would not have

been worth his while. There would

0:39:440:39:49

have been a risk to his benefits and

a risk to him. I do not blame him.

0:39:490:39:54

He made a calculated and rational

decision and chose not to take that

0:39:540:39:59

job because of the policy of the

honourable gentleman's government.

0:39:590:40:04

That perhaps he could expend, if the

work incentives were so poor under

0:40:040:40:08

Labour, why lone parent implement

increased from 44% in 1994 to 57%

0:40:080:40:12

when we left office? -- and bone

parent employment increased -- lone

0:40:120:40:21

parent implement.

It is always a

pleasure to lock horns with the

0:40:210:40:27

honourable member in a constructive

fashion. On the last occasion that

0:40:270:40:31

she chose me, she said, how about

the young people in poverty? If you

0:40:310:40:35

look at the figures on poverty,

there are 600,000 fewer people in

0:40:350:40:42

absolute poverty. I will check that

figure. But I want to come back to

0:40:420:40:48

the old system, the constituent who

came to me under the old system

0:40:480:40:54

saying it did not pay for him to go

to work. Under Universal Credit, the

0:40:540:41:00

principle should be that work always

pays. I want to come to tax credits

0:41:000:41:05

as well. We remember the fiasco.

£7.3 billion worth of overpayments.

0:41:050:41:14

The honourable gentleman, the member

for Hove, mentioned about the speed

0:41:140:41:17

with which this has been rolled out.

The lesson to be learnt is that if

0:41:170:41:22

you roll it out in a Big Bang

fashion such as tax credits, you

0:41:220:41:28

have £7.3 billion of overpayments

and 2.7 billion that had to be

0:41:280:41:31

clawed back from the poorest and

most vulnerable. Even as a new

0:41:310:41:36

member of Parliament in 2015, there

were still people feeling the

0:41:360:41:42

repercussions of that old system. I

have a minute and a half left. The

0:41:420:41:47

right honourable gentleman, the

member for Birkenhead, mentioned

0:41:470:41:51

about two weekly payments. I want to

ask the minister what the evidence

0:41:510:41:54

is about as to the numbers of people

in employment currently who receive

0:41:540:41:59

payment on a two weekly basis. My

suspicion is that it is a very low

0:41:590:42:03

proportion. But I want the minister

to tackle that directly. In

0:42:030:42:10

particular, I want the minister to

continue to listen and learn and

0:42:100:42:15

ensure that it always pays to be on

work rather than on benefits.

Just

0:42:150:42:19

to help the situation because of the

interventions, I am going to drop

0:42:190:42:24

into five minutes now. If people

continue to intervene, they

0:42:240:42:28

understand that they would go to the

bottom of the list to make sure that

0:42:280:42:32

others get that chance. Chris

Stephens.

I congratulate the

0:42:320:42:42

honourable member on his maiden

speech. He has still to be persuaded

0:42:420:42:46

on the merits of Scottish

independence and I look forward to

0:42:460:42:48

debating that with him in the next

few years. I thank him for paying

0:42:480:42:57

generous tribute to his predecessor.

As a member of the DWP select

0:42:570:43:04

committee, Mr Deputy Speaker, can I

start by saying that Glasgow is a

0:43:040:43:11

city where words often have more

than one meaning. An attempted to

0:43:110:43:15

some of this government's approach

to social secure the benefits and

0:43:150:43:18

Universal Credit, I would use the

word ignorant. Members opposite may

0:43:180:43:23

not agree with that

characterisation. They may point to

0:43:230:43:26

the architect of Universal Credit

referred to by the honourable member

0:43:260:43:29

for Birkenhead, the right honourable

member for Woods agreeing who

0:43:290:43:37

visited Glasgow in 2002, whereas

this year, the government are

0:43:370:43:42

closing Jobcentre in Easterhouse.

Being a member of the Scottish first

0:43:420:43:51

select committee, when we discussed

the situation of Glasgow Jobcentres,

0:43:510:43:55

could the honourable gentleman

confirm that Glasgow had somewhere

0:43:550:43:58

in the region of 16 Jobcentres and

the excellent proposal, in fact, it

0:43:580:44:04

wasn't radical enough in my view, of

the DWP was to reduce it to eight.

0:44:040:44:08

When you compared the number of

Jobcentres in comparable cities in

0:44:080:44:13

other parts of the country with

comparable rates of employment, they

0:44:130:44:17

often had two or three as opposed to

the eight.

Order!

In response to

0:44:170:44:25

that, I would say quickly that the

evidence that was used by the

0:44:250:44:31

government to justify closing those

Jobcentres was based on information

0:44:310:44:35

which didn't exist. They were using

Google Maps when they should have

0:44:350:44:39

been using an app that would have

told them that closing Jobcentres

0:44:390:44:44

means a complicated hour-long

journey. Faced with all the evidence

0:44:440:44:55

provided to the work and pensions

committee by a wide range of people

0:44:550:44:59

and organisations dealing with the

impact of Universal Credit, faced

0:44:590:45:03

with the reports from that committee

that outlines where the

0:45:030:45:05

implementation is going wrong, the

government continues to argue that

0:45:050:45:09

in in my city, we describe it as

ignorant. In Glasgow, it means

0:45:090:45:17

someone who doesn't know all the

facts, someone who doesn't know

0:45:170:45:21

better -- it doesn't mean that. It

means someone who knows all the

0:45:210:45:24

facts and knows what should be done,

but chooses to do whatever they want

0:45:240:45:29

despite it being wrong-headed and

damaging to others. We have already

0:45:290:45:35

heard the tired old government line

about the policy of government

0:45:350:45:37

credit as having been welcomed. It

is even in the top line of the work

0:45:370:45:42

and pensions committee report that

in principle, Universal Credit is a

0:45:420:45:46

good idea. But, and this can't be

emphasised enough, it is the design

0:45:460:45:51

and operation in practice that is

deeply and utterly flawed. Media

0:45:510:45:56

reports of a rethink or U-turn on

the waiting time for Universal

0:45:560:45:59

Credit were trailed yesterday come

but do not seem to present a clear

0:45:590:46:05

commitment to reduce to the four

weeks maximum. There was some link

0:46:050:46:09

to this story in next week's Budget.

I can only assume what many have

0:46:090:46:14

suspected, which is that Universal

Credit is less to do with supporting

0:46:140:46:17

people into employment and more to

do with cutting the benefits bill.

0:46:170:46:25

The Public and Commercial Services

Union has outlined how Universal

0:46:250:46:28

Credit works, as opposed to the

fantasy Island wishful thinking of

0:46:280:46:32

benefit system reforms. The pressure

on staff is intense, with one in ten

0:46:320:46:36

who work directly with Universal

Credit claims leaving, double what

0:46:360:46:40

is considered normal. The Department

for Work and Pensions employs 30,000

0:46:400:46:45

fewer staff than it did in 2010. So

if the government is meant to be in

0:46:450:46:49

the job creation business, it

doesn't appear to be in its own

0:46:490:46:54

backyard, the civil service.

Jobcentre closures, lack of intimate

0:46:540:47:00

access and digital exclusion or put

a strain on claimants and staff --

0:47:000:47:03

lack of internet access. I do claim

the dropping of telephone charges as

0:47:030:47:14

a recognition that something has to

give. The current situation is

0:47:140:47:17

unsustainable. As Universal Credit

follows from the intimidation of

0:47:170:47:27

Pip, which implemented hardship on

many people, it is hard not to join

0:47:270:47:31

the dots and work-out this

government makes things more

0:47:310:47:38

difficult. The changes to benefits

are part of cuts agenda. The budget

0:47:380:47:41

for Universal Credit is nearly 3

billion a year less than the system

0:47:410:47:45

it replaces. No wonder it has delays

to payments as if every pound owed

0:47:450:47:55

to claimants is held in government

accounts, the poorest in society are

0:47:550:47:58

subsidising government expense while

offshore savers do not pay tax. The

0:47:580:48:06

Universal Credit report mentions the

impact the six-week wait has on

0:48:060:48:13

claimants. It also identifies

problems which starts with a

0:48:130:48:17

claimant being in debt if they are

not already. There are clearly

0:48:170:48:20

situations with housing situation

not knowing that the tenants are on

0:48:200:48:24

Universal Credit. I hope the

government will also focus on that.

0:48:240:48:32

I am calling for the government to

cut the waiting time for Universal

0:48:320:48:35

Credit and pours the roll-out.

Glasgow will be the last major city

0:48:350:48:38

in the UK to be subject to the full

service roll-out. Before that, how

0:48:380:48:42

many thousands of families, children

and vulnerable people will have to

0:48:420:48:46

suffer and staff before we get to

that point? If a tenth of the

0:48:460:48:50

resources put into chasing benefit

fraud were put into chasing tax

0:48:500:48:54

avoidance, how much more resources

could truly support working people

0:48:540:48:57

and enable them to work rather than

cut off their lifelines?

Before I

0:48:570:49:04

begin, I would like to pay tribute

to my honourable friend. I take

0:49:040:49:09

issue with his claiming to have the

most beautiful seat in Scotland,

0:49:090:49:13

possibly the most beautiful seat in

Aberdeenshire. Now that I know that

0:49:130:49:17

that is where the gannets are coming

from, if he could do us all a favour

0:49:170:49:20

and give them up north, I would be

grateful. This is the third time in

0:49:200:49:25

four weeks that we have debated

Universal Credit in this chamber.

0:49:250:49:28

That is not a bad thing. It affects

many of our constituents and it is

0:49:280:49:34

arguably the biggest reform to

welfare since the average report in

0:49:340:49:37

1940, so it is right that we debate

this reform. I'm lucky at this stage

0:49:370:49:42

of my parliament should career to

sit on the work and pensions select

0:49:420:49:47

committee. That is under the

chairmanship of the honourable

0:49:470:49:53

member for Birkenhead, whose skill

as a lesson in how to drive a

0:49:530:49:56

debate. I sit under some passionate

and loaded MPs of all persuasions.

0:49:560:49:59

What unites us is the desire to get

to the nub of some of the biggest

0:49:590:50:03

issues facing our welfare system and

get answers and find out how we can

0:50:030:50:07

make it better for our constituents

who rely on it. I hope this comes

0:50:070:50:12

through in the report we are talking

about today. We all hopefully

0:50:120:50:15

believe in Universal Credit and we

want it to work. As the first page

0:50:150:50:20

of the report states, Universal

Credit has great merits. It aims to

0:50:200:50:25

simplify another computer system by

combining six benefits into one. It

0:50:250:50:28

improves incentives for people to

start paid work or increase their

0:50:280:50:32

hours and it is the path to work

party by mirroring the world of work

0:50:320:50:38

in its operation. The report goes on

to say that implement properly,

0:50:380:50:41

Universal Credit has the potential

to have a genuinely transformative

0:50:410:50:44

effect on the labour market and can

help reduce poverty. I believe

0:50:440:50:49

Universal Credit is and can work. As

I have said before, the Universal

0:50:490:50:54

Credit work report found that 71% of

people claiming Universal Credit

0:50:540:50:58

found work within the first nine

months of their claim, which is a

0:50:580:51:02

rate 8% higher than that of the

comparable job-seeker's allowance.

0:51:020:51:05

And people claiming Universal Credit

were three percentage points more

0:51:050:51:10

likely to be in work after three

months than those claiming JSA and

0:51:100:51:14

four percentage points more likely

to have been in work six months

0:51:140:51:17

after starting their claim. These

numbers look small, but signify

0:51:170:51:21

thousands of lives which are

dramatically improved by this

0:51:210:51:25

policy. However, there are genuine

concerns concerning elements of the

0:51:250:51:33

roll-out, specifically the six-week

wait for the first payment. It would

0:51:330:51:36

be remiss of us to ignore these. The

committee has put in the report that

0:51:360:51:41

we are debating today that the

six-week wait has been associated

0:51:410:51:44

with increases in rent arrears,

problem debt and food bag use. It

0:51:440:51:49

urges the government to aim to

reduce the standard waiting time for

0:51:490:51:53

a first Universal Credit payments to

one month. But it would be remiss of

0:51:530:51:57

us not to acknowledge that the

government has not been proactive in

0:51:570:52:00

trying to find solutions for our

constituents who need the help of

0:52:000:52:06

the most or cannot wait the six-week

period.

0:52:060:52:15

The Secretary of State announced

that the DWP would make Universal

0:52:150:52:19

Credit more widely available to

those who needed them.

And we were

0:52:190:52:22

all impressed by the ease and speed

by which an advanced payment could

0:52:220:52:26

be granted. This debate is not

supposed to be about whether we

0:52:260:52:29

should pause or stop the roll-out of

Universal Credit. It is on the

0:52:290:52:36

report of the work and pensions

committee. I feel the report is

0:52:360:52:39

balanced and 60 give recommendations

to the Government run than unduly

0:52:390:52:43

criticised what we all want to be a

successful roll-out of a

0:52:430:52:49

transformation will roll-out

benefit. The Government are doing

0:52:490:52:51

what we all want them to do, pushing

ahead and learning... I will give

0:52:510:52:57

way.

And listening hard because

Universal Credit is seen to come to

0:52:570:53:03

my constituency. I am very pleased

to hear and say that the advance

0:53:030:53:08

payments helps with the six-week

gap. Has he looked at the repayment

0:53:080:53:12

period for these advanced payments

and is there enough flexibility in

0:53:120:53:19

the repayment of the advance payment

especially the people who are

0:53:190:53:22

challenged for getting back to work?

I thank my honourable friend for the

0:53:220:53:27

intervention and I will be blunt and

honest and say I have not looked at

0:53:270:53:31

that in great detail. But I will do

so and get back to you. I was going

0:53:310:53:34

to say that the Government is

listening and should be doing what

0:53:340:53:38

we wanted to do and that is to crash

course asleep ahead, learning and

0:53:380:53:44

refining the system as it continues

to roll out this important benefit

0:53:440:53:50

to the people of the UK.

I would

just like to share my

0:53:500:53:55

congratulations for an excellent

maiden speech and to congratulate

0:53:550:54:00

the honourable member for Birkenhead

for securing this debate. At Prime

0:54:000:54:05

Minister's Questions yesterday, the

Leader of the Opposition raise a

0:54:050:54:10

letter from an agency in my

constituency which... In

0:54:100:54:16

anticipation of the roll-out next

month. Effectively a pre-emptive

0:54:160:54:22

notice for affection. And that

notice means that any constituent

0:54:220:54:32

who falls into rent arrears because

of the delay in their well for

0:54:320:54:35

payments can be evicted without any

notice. The roll-out payments in my

0:54:350:54:41

constituency is due on the 13th of

December for all new claimants.

0:54:410:54:44

Because of the issuing date of this

notice it means that the earliest

0:54:440:54:50

that people could find themselves at

risk of eviction will be in mid

0:54:500:54:54

January. They can be evicted without

notice because it has already been

0:54:540:55:01

served from mid-January until

mid-May at which point the notice

0:55:010:55:05

then expires and I assume that the

plan will then to be too reissued

0:55:050:55:10

them all. The constituent that first

contacted me about this said that

0:55:100:55:14

she feels utterly helpless and

heartsick. I think it is an

0:55:140:55:18

outrageous way to treat people and

will have left all of those who

0:55:180:55:24

received it stressed and worried for

their futures.

The honourable lady

0:55:240:55:30

Ken asked to give way they cannot

remain on her feet.

I was really

0:55:300:55:36

disappointed that the Prime Minister

yesterday did not condemn that

0:55:360:55:39

letter in the chamber. I would like

to invite the minister here today to

0:55:390:55:45

do that today instead. Yesterday the

Prime Minister, rather than

0:55:450:55:50

acknowledging the impact that this

policy is clearly happening, she

0:55:500:55:54

waxed and waned about the fact that

she had not seen a copy of the

0:55:540:55:57

letter. Well, I have got that letter

here today and I'm very happy to

0:55:570:56:01

hand over to the minister once I

have finished my speech so that he

0:56:010:56:05

has a chance read for himself first,

if he has not done so already. It

0:56:050:56:12

appears to me a blatant attempt to

circumvent the laws passed in the

0:56:120:56:18

Housing act 1988 and the

deregulation act 2015 which requires

0:56:180:56:23

two months notice to be given to

tenants before an eviction can be

0:56:230:56:27

carried out. A giveaway...

A number

of this on this bench would like to

0:56:270:56:36

join her in condemning that letter

which we believe is illegal and we

0:56:360:56:40

would like to have a copy because my

question to the honourable member,

0:56:400:56:44

is how she actually met the housing

association to tell?

Letter is

0:56:440:56:53

becoming... What that would suggest

is that it can be passed to the

0:56:530:56:58

member when the member has finished

speaking.

What I need to make

0:56:580:57:05

absolutely clear is about the

private rental sector, not the

0:57:050:57:08

housing association. And the members

opposite me may well feel that this

0:57:080:57:11

is illegal. And one of them was

condemning the intervention earlier

0:57:110:57:16

about the fact that they believe

this to be illegal. Having received

0:57:160:57:23

to some completely unsolicited legal

advice when lawyers in house have

0:57:230:57:26

contacted me saying that this is not

illegal. It is completely

0:57:260:57:32

legitimate. One of the big issues

with this is that even if it were to

0:57:320:57:37

be illegal, that many of these

people would not have the

0:57:370:57:42

capabilities to seek legal redress

anyway. And that is a real issue.

0:57:420:57:55

Despite the very clear moral actions

around this question, I am advised

0:57:550:57:59

that this remains a lawful way of

operating. I have even had some

0:57:590:58:04

indication that some landlords are

issuing these notices at the outset

0:58:040:58:09

of tenancies, which is really quite

frightening. But a much bigger issue

0:58:090:58:13

than that that we're discussing here

today. But I really hope the

0:58:130:58:16

Government will look at closing this

loophole in the future. I'm very

0:58:160:58:20

happy to share the information that

is online, my Facebook page, people

0:58:200:58:26

are very welcome to go and look at

that. The Government said that my

0:58:260:58:29

colleagues and I on the side of the

House were guilty of scaremongering

0:58:290:58:32

when we warned that rolling out

Universal Credit could lead to

0:58:320:58:35

people going into debt or being

evicted from their properties. It is

0:58:350:58:38

not just ask that are making this

claim. It is charities, councils,

0:58:380:58:44

housing associations, it is the

statistical evidence from the areas

0:58:440:58:48

where Universal Credit has already

been piloted, and now it is the

0:58:480:58:51

letting agencies to. My local has

182 tenants that have gone onto

0:58:510:59:01

credit, 145 are already in rent

arrears of £400, 80% of them. When

0:59:010:59:07

Universal Credit is fully rolled

out, the housing association are

0:59:070:59:10

expecting to see a total debt from

tennis to increase to £2.2 million.

0:59:100:59:15

A giveaway...

Would she agree with

me that actually if the Government

0:59:150:59:23

were to extend the implied consent

so that third sectors like housing

0:59:230:59:28

associations, but more importantly,

CAD and well -- well for advisers

0:59:280:59:35

could give advice to people in

Universal Credit without jumping

0:59:350:59:39

through hoops to speak with the

Universal Credit managers.

I think

0:59:390:59:44

that that is an excellent idea. I

hope the minister will consider

0:59:440:59:49

carefully and respond to. My housing

association expecting an increase...

0:59:491:00:03

Expecting their properties to

deteriorate rather than people

1:00:031:00:04

choose to eat rather than heat. I am

sure that everybody will understand

1:00:041:00:12

that I am really concerned that

people in my town will pay a heavy

1:00:121:00:17

price if the system doesn't work.

The warnings against pushing ahead

1:00:171:00:20

with this roll-out now are loud and

clear. The Government cannot feign

1:00:201:00:25

ignorance of what is likely to come.

If they go ahead next month in my

1:00:251:00:29

constituency as planned, they will

knowingly be putting more people at

1:00:291:00:36

risk of debt, fiction and

homelessness. To me, that really sit

1:00:361:00:39

at odds with their much heralded

homelessness act, it appears the two

1:00:391:00:50

areas of policy are at complete odds

with one another. That is the test,

1:00:501:00:54

which one is more important to them?

I am pleading with the Government to

1:00:541:01:00

listen, press pause on the roll-out

and get this right before moving

1:01:001:01:02

ahead.

My congratulations to the

maiden speech. Thank you to the

1:01:021:01:20

right honourable member to

Birkenhead for securing this debate

1:01:201:01:23

and for working so closely in

cross-party partnership with me on

1:01:231:01:26

an issue which I know is very

important to both of us. Members of

1:01:261:01:30

this House and ministers will know

that I fully support Universal

1:01:301:01:33

Credit and believe that when it is

fully implemented that it will be

1:01:331:01:37

the most positive transformation of

benefit system in decades. As an

1:01:371:01:42

employer, I remember only too well

the weaknesses of the old suits. The

1:01:421:01:46

16 hour cliff edge that limited

employees ability to take on more

1:01:461:01:49

rows knowing they will be worse off.

I was reminded of this in a

1:01:491:01:54

conversation last week with a

constituent, because the full

1:01:541:01:57

service has not come to my local job

centre in Cambridge. She does not

1:01:571:02:00

want to take any more hours now

because of this. What kind of a

1:02:001:02:04

benefit trap is that? No one in this

House can surely support a benefit

1:02:041:02:08

system that actively discourages

progression in work. Universal

1:02:081:02:10

Credit will be different. The basic

system for single and complicated

1:02:101:02:16

job-seekers has been rolled out, it

is different. We see more people

1:02:161:02:22

moving into and upwards in work. But

it is without doubt the full

1:02:221:02:25

service, the full Universal Credit

system that will support parents,

1:02:251:02:31

families and people with

disabilities were many others

1:02:311:02:33

concerns. I appreciate that such a

huge transformation in operation

1:02:331:02:37

will come with challenges and that

the test and learn approach is

1:02:371:02:41

commonplace with IT projects. At the

credit -- crucial difference is that

1:02:411:02:48

this is about real lives and people.

Get it right and the potential is

1:02:481:02:55

huge. But get it wrong and the risks

are simply too great. They may

1:02:551:03:01

manifest themselves, I will say, in

debt and hunger. It is right that

1:03:011:03:07

ministers have opted to roll

Universal Credit out slowly steadily

1:03:071:03:11

and carefully. There have been

unacceptable delays in first

1:03:111:03:14

payments. I wish we had a freephone

number for everyone from the

1:03:141:03:20

beginning. There remain part of the

system that are incomplete. The

1:03:201:03:24

minimum income for the self-employed

and the evidence gathering process

1:03:241:03:27

for childcare costs need further

development. If I am honest, I

1:03:271:03:31

believe the system will never reach

is truly intended potential as the

1:03:311:03:35

ultimate poverty fighting machine,

into the tape rate is reduced or

1:03:351:03:39

work allowance is restored to their

pre-2015 levels. I think the

1:03:391:03:44

Chancellor for reducing the tape

rate by 2% in the last budget. Every

1:03:441:03:51

penny really does matter for those

living on the lowest incomes. Single

1:03:511:03:55

parents and second parents returning

to work will be worse off now than

1:03:551:03:58

they would have been under the old

system. And in wet couple will lose

1:03:581:04:03

about £1300 a year to the benefits

cuts. Aren't they the very people we

1:04:031:04:08

should be in courage and to get into

work as MAC tight fiscal discipline

1:04:081:04:12

and razor sharp focusing of precious

resources and precise and meaningful

1:04:121:04:17

intervention and smart thinking,

that is what this Government does

1:04:171:04:19

well. We could find the money to

reverse the decision from 11,212 and

1:04:191:04:27

a half thousand for all. Would it

not be better to focus on the money

1:04:271:04:30

that need it? I don't need it, I

suspect you don't need it. If we

1:04:301:04:36

want Universal Credit to be exactly

like the world of work it has to

1:04:361:04:41

operate like the world of work. Can

any Government minister or civil

1:04:411:04:44

servant honestly say that waiting

six weeks for your first payment is

1:04:441:04:47

normal. From my Universal Credit

wish list, one ask stands head and

1:04:471:04:51

shoulders above the rest. We have

got to get the six week weight down.

1:04:511:04:56

I remain grateful and I appreciate

the Secretary of State diligence and

1:04:561:05:05

receptiveness in hearing our

concerns. Members on all sides of

1:05:051:05:08

this House, peers, charities, the

children's Commissioner and most

1:05:081:05:13

importantly of our our constituents

have raised concerns. We can't all

1:05:131:05:19

be wrong. This six week weight must

be reduced to a month. Put £1

1:05:191:05:28

billion back into the paper rate

with the right things to do.

As well

1:05:281:05:38

as making recommendations I think it

is sincerely meant and it will be

1:05:381:05:43

taken by the minister as what the

Government can do as evidenced by

1:05:431:05:46

what is in the House today. It

involved immoral letting agencies

1:05:461:05:53

also need to act.

System change of

this magnitude require everyone to

1:05:531:06:00

work properly and with integrity and

not inflicting any influence on the

1:06:001:06:04

most honourable -- vulnerable.

Further to her point about the six

1:06:041:06:16

weeks, which I entirely endorse and

pays the member for. Would she seek

1:06:161:06:23

my point that this situation is

worse and when you have a remote

1:06:231:06:28

constituency in Scotland which they

do not find themselves in a food

1:06:281:06:34

bank or friends and relations who

might be able to tide them over.

1:06:341:06:39

There is a sparsity issue to this

which worries me greatly.

There are

1:06:391:06:42

many elements which make it

especially difficult for some

1:06:421:06:46

people. We have to recognise that

one system will not work everybody

1:06:461:06:49

and we have to work together to find

solutions. The reputation of this

1:06:491:06:53

place has hit rock bottom again in

recent weeks. Let's turn it around.

1:06:531:06:57

I checked couple but in a source.

Compassionate, empathetic,

1:06:571:07:04

thoughtful, showing concern for

others. -- thesaurus. A

1:07:041:07:09

compassionate conservative does both

of these things. Progressive and

1:07:091:07:14

three but safeguarding of society in

showing care for eyes. Let's show we

1:07:141:07:18

are listening, please minister,

let's do this.

1:07:181:07:21

I am pleased to follow the

honourable lady, who has established

1:07:261:07:30

a positive reputation on these

issues. I thank the business

1:07:301:07:35

committee for the opportunity to

debate Universal Credit again and I

1:07:351:07:39

congratulate my right honourable

friend from Birkenhead, who has a

1:07:391:07:43

slightly longer reputation than the

honourable lady for campaigning on

1:07:431:07:45

these issues. I hope the minister

can confirm the reports in the media

1:07:451:07:55

that the Chancellor will be taking

action in his Budget next week to

1:07:551:07:59

reduce the waiting time on Universal

Credit, and also that other changes

1:07:591:08:02

might be made. It is clear from the

contributions so far that it is not

1:08:021:08:09

just about the waiting time, the

problems with Universal Credit. I

1:08:091:08:14

want to refer to some statistics and

cases from my own constituency.

1:08:141:08:19

Citizens Advice East End London tell

me that analysis suggests that

1:08:191:08:24

22,000 families in Poplar and

Limehouse will be in receipt of

1:08:241:08:27

Universal Credit by 2022, half of

whom will be in work. They have

1:08:271:08:31

dealt with hundreds of cases

already, half of which relate to the

1:08:311:08:35

claiming process. One involved a

young mother with a five-month-old

1:08:351:08:39

baby refused Universal Credit due to

an incorrect decision on her right

1:08:391:08:42

to resign. On rent arrears, I am

grateful for information surprised

1:08:421:08:47

by Andrea Baker. She tells me that

of their residents claiming

1:08:471:08:52

Universal Credit, of the 372, 90 8%

are in arrears. That can't be right.

1:08:521:09:01

Something has gone wrong somewhere

in the system where the statistics

1:09:011:09:06

for it benefit cap on housing

benefit and bedroom tax are less

1:09:061:09:09

than half that number. Andrea says

that whilst there are still

1:09:091:09:14

relatively fewer households

transitioning to Universal Credit,

1:09:141:09:16

the average 10-week wait for the

first payment has pushed 98% of them

1:09:161:09:21

into rent arrears. We anticipate

that it would be very difficult for

1:09:211:09:24

the majority of Universal Credit

households to make up the accrued

1:09:241:09:27

arrears. When the payment is finally

received, there are also likely to

1:09:271:09:33

owe money to others, family,

friends, utility, credit cards,

1:09:331:09:38

payday loans and credit cards. While

we advise that pain when should be

1:09:381:09:42

the priority, -- paying rent should

be a priority, I have had similar

1:09:421:09:50

reports from elsewhere. We have

received statistics. For example, a

1:09:501:10:01

61-year-old man made redundant last

year after working in mental health

1:10:011:10:06

for 22 years, following funding cuts

he was unable to find work and with

1:10:061:10:10

the savings made the decision to

claim you see in August. His claim

1:10:101:10:14

has been continually refused on the

grounds of missing documentation. In

1:10:141:10:19

September he was informed his

housing benefit would be stopped

1:10:191:10:22

with. With no UC, he has now fallen

into £700 of rent arrears with his

1:10:221:10:27

housing association. He has £200 to

his name and now fears eviction and

1:10:271:10:34

homelessness despite still

unsuccessfully trying to claim

1:10:341:10:36

Universal Credit and attending five

job interviews. He writes, after

1:10:361:10:42

four decades of almost continual

employment, I find it incredible to

1:10:421:10:45

find myself in this parlous state

and faced with possible

1:10:451:10:48

homelessness. There are a number of

other cases of people on low pay

1:10:481:10:56

whose monthly income is incorrectly

calculated, people with partners who

1:10:561:11:04

are a student having their

eligibility for credit miscalculated

1:11:041:11:07

because of the minimum income flow

which suggests that self-employed

1:11:071:11:11

people are targeted as earning £1000

a month, regardless of what they are

1:11:111:11:15

actually earning. And a lady

attended my surgery in a fragile

1:11:151:11:21

state both emotionally and

physically. She initially made a

1:11:211:11:24

claim for Universal Credit in

August. She was unable to manage the

1:11:241:11:28

referrals because of medical and

mental issues and missed a vital

1:11:281:11:31

meeting which led to her claim being

closed. Her benefit was finally paid

1:11:311:11:34

after ten weeks with only a small

interim payment and having to access

1:11:341:11:42

a local food bank. This case was

resolved quickly, but only after

1:11:421:11:46

intervention by my team, stating how

concerned they were for Miss K's

1:11:461:11:52

well-being. The food love foundation

say that Universal Credit referrals

1:11:521:11:56

this year to the food bank are 25%

when they were only 4% last year.

1:11:561:12:00

All of these cases tell me that

Universal Credit isn't working for a

1:12:001:12:06

variety of reasons. I hope the

minister can offer some expectation

1:12:061:12:10

is that things will improve for my

constituents as well as others whose

1:12:101:12:14

members of Parliament have been

making the case for them this

1:12:141:12:17

afternoon.

I would like to

congratulate the right honourable

1:12:171:12:25

gentleman for Birkenhead in securing

this debate and also to listen to

1:12:251:12:31

the new member for Bamford in a

superb maiden speech and the debate

1:12:311:12:38

about the most beautiful Scottish

constituency carries on to this day.

1:12:381:12:42

Waiting seven weeks for a first

payment in any circumstance is very

1:12:421:12:45

challenging. If someone middle class

gets a new job and they have to wait

1:12:451:12:52

six weeks for their first pay, that

would be challenging. But it is

1:12:521:12:58

likely that that individual would

have savings to fall back upon.

1:12:581:13:01

There might be friends and family to

offer support. And they would have a

1:13:011:13:08

good salary to look forward to once

they started their job. But someone

1:13:081:13:15

on Universal Credit, someone

receiving benefits, would far less

1:13:151:13:21

likely have that information, would

be less likely to have savings.

1:13:211:13:26

Their friends and family may not be

so able to offer support. They would

1:13:261:13:30

be in a far more tricky position if

receiving benefits, perhaps having

1:13:301:13:37

lived on the minimum wage or the

living wage. So we have to recognise

1:13:371:13:43

that. The six-week wait is

enormously difficult for people in

1:13:431:13:48

the most vulnerable position in

society. I believe we ought to get

1:13:481:13:54

closer to the vision set out in

Universal Credit when it was

1:13:541:13:57

initially rolled out, the sense of

it being compatible with work, that

1:13:571:14:04

work should always pay. But it is

not the only place where Universal

1:14:041:14:09

Credit needs to get closer to that

initial vision. We need to reduce

1:14:091:14:13

those seven waiting dates. If

someone has previously been on

1:14:131:14:18

minimum wage and has no savings and

has to spend seven days without any

1:14:181:14:23

income before, five weeks following

the seven days, they receive their

1:14:231:14:28

first payment, that is very

difficult for someone with very

1:14:281:14:33

little back-up. We also need to look

at the paper and go further to

1:14:331:14:46

giving judgment for people to get

into work. But we do have a

1:14:461:14:51

listening government. I would like

to highlight a note sent to me by

1:14:511:14:55

Bolton Citizens Advice Bureau. It

says "We welcome the government's

1:14:551:15:00

position to make the Universal

Credit helpline free and ensure that

1:15:001:15:03

all claimants are told they could

get an advance payment". We call for

1:15:031:15:09

the exchanges in July because they

will make a real difference to the

1:15:091:15:11

people we help.

On the subject of

advance payments, I thought there

1:15:111:15:20

was nothing I didn't know about UC,

but you can have a three-month

1:15:201:15:24

payment holiday before you pay those

advance payments back. Do you think

1:15:241:15:29

the Jobcentre should advertise that

more?

My honourable friend makes an

1:15:291:15:34

important point. It is important to

increase the communication, and that

1:15:341:15:40

awareness is vital. Citizens Advice

and other organisations play a vital

1:15:401:15:43

part in this. I know many people are

calling for the month to force or

1:15:431:15:54

perhaps even stop the roll-out of

Universal Credit. I don't agree with

1:15:541:15:57

that. I visited a Jobcentre recently

that serves my constituents, and

1:15:571:16:04

they were clear - do not stop. My

honourable friend, the member for

1:16:041:16:08

South Cambridgeshire, highlighted a

number of failings with the current

1:16:081:16:14

system. It has been failing far too

many people, so we do need to move

1:16:141:16:21

on to Universal Credit, but the

initial weight must come down from

1:16:211:16:26

six weeks to one month.

It is a

pleasure to be in a debate and have

1:16:261:16:34

heard the maiden speech of the

Honourable member for Bamford and to

1:16:341:16:38

follow Honourable members including

my honourable friend, the member for

1:16:381:16:42

Birkenhead. No one could object to

Universal Credit's ambitions to

1:16:421:16:48

simplify the benefits system and

make work pay and reduce poverty.

1:16:481:16:51

But so much has gone wrong in

practice that it is hard in this

1:16:511:16:55

debate to know where to start. The

problems we see are not just because

1:16:551:16:59

of poor implementation. They are

problems that have been designed in

1:16:591:17:04

from the outset, despite repeated

warnings from Honourable members on

1:17:041:17:07

this side of the House since 2011.

The programme was too ambitious, too

1:17:071:17:12

risky, too complicated, too reliant

complex IT systems. And it didn't go

1:17:121:17:18

with the greater people's lives.

Let's start with the six-week wait,

1:17:181:17:24

based on the prejudice that the

right and normal way in which to

1:17:241:17:27

receive your income is every month.

That is not the case for many

1:17:271:17:31

low-paid workers, as we know. There

is also the assumption just alluded

1:17:311:17:37

to that there might be people who

have savings in the back. Ask

1:17:371:17:42

yourselves, could you manage if

suddenly, your income dried up for

1:17:421:17:45

six weeks or more, especially if it

was the result of an expected a

1:17:451:17:50

catastrophic event? You lost your

job, a partner left, Utah became ill

1:17:501:17:54

or you had an accident and couldn't

go to work? It is unforgivable to

1:17:541:17:58

put extra pressure on people on the

lowest incomes in those

1:17:581:18:01

circumstances. The six-week wait

must be reduced. I recognise that

1:18:011:18:06

exceptions can be made, but it is

not clear that the system is working

1:18:061:18:10

when it should. My constituent was

fleeing domestic violence and told

1:18:101:18:13

that she would not have to wait the

six-week waiting period, but she

1:18:131:18:17

still had no money after two weeks.

That leads me to problems with

1:18:171:18:23

advance payments. My constituent K

was not told that they were

1:18:231:18:30

available. And the repayment rate

when she did secure an advance

1:18:301:18:34

payment is punitively high,

especially when combined with the

1:18:341:18:39

recovery of other debts such as

council tax debt, unit -- utility

1:18:391:18:43

debt or debts imposed by

Magistrates' Courts. Under Universal

1:18:431:18:46

Credit, that can mean deductions of

up to 40%, leaving claimants with

1:18:461:18:51

insufficient to live on. One lone

parent in my constituency was left

1:18:511:18:55

with just £100.57 for a week to pay

all the bills, £110 less than on the

1:18:551:19:04

legacy benefit. How can that be

right? Problems with debt are also

1:19:041:19:08

creating problems with rent arrears.

80% of Trafford housing trust

1:19:081:19:15

customers are in rent arrears. The

collection which is 79.3%. While it

1:19:151:19:20

is much higher over three months,

that is because by that point,

1:19:201:19:25

mistakes in paying their benefit

have largely been sorted out or

1:19:251:19:28

because they have got debt relief

orders in place. It is not because

1:19:281:19:31

they are adapting to Universal

Credit, but because other things are

1:19:311:19:35

kicking in. These problems are

compounded by a complete lack of

1:19:351:19:39

understanding in Jobcentre plus

about alternative payment

1:19:391:19:42

arrangements, in other words, paying

the rent direct to landlords. The

1:19:421:19:45

Trafford housing staff tell me that

Jobcentre plus staff don't

1:19:451:19:49

understand this, make mistakes in

calculation is, make payments to

1:19:491:20:00

claimants which should not be made

which are then promptly swallowed up

1:20:001:20:03

by the bank and other creditors. In

one case am aware the alternative

1:20:031:20:05

payment arrangement was refused, it

was because the debt had been deemed

1:20:051:20:08

of being less than eight weeks. It

wasn't. The Jobcentre plus staff

1:20:081:20:10

were calculating the period as being

a 52 week period, whereas Trafford

1:20:101:20:13

housing staff can to the claims of a

48 week period.

Broxtowe CAB told me

1:20:131:20:19

they were also concerned about

people who were on fluctuating rates

1:20:191:20:23

of ours and that those fluctuations

and the lack of good coordination

1:20:231:20:27

with HMRC is also causing problems

for people on low wages in receipt

1:20:271:20:34

of UC.

I'm delighted that the right

honourable lady has raised that

1:20:341:20:37

point, as it brings me to my next

point. Problems arise with the

1:20:371:20:42

assessment period. I have one

constituent who, because of the

1:20:421:20:51

problems with the assessment period,

received two loss of wages in one

1:20:511:20:54

assessment period. Others have

received different payment in

1:20:541:21:00

different assessment periods. As a

result, her Universal Credit was

1:21:001:21:04

calculated as being zero in the

month in which she had received two

1:21:041:21:08

payments. The following month, she

received nothing. But by this time,

1:21:081:21:12

her claim had been cancelled. We

were told at the time that the

1:21:121:21:18

benefit was reduced that real-time

information with HMRC would sort out

1:21:181:21:21

this kind of problem. But they

didn't. It was a failure of her

1:21:211:21:25

employer to upload the data in time

that meant that real-time

1:21:251:21:29

information was an irrelevance

because the data wasn't there. In

1:21:291:21:34

other cases, we have seen

constituents being paid too early,

1:21:341:21:38

perhaps because their employer

advances payment before the

1:21:381:21:40

Christmas break, and then they lose

their award and the claim is

1:21:401:21:44

stopped. None of that is the fault

of the claimant, but the WP are

1:21:441:21:48

inflexible in their application of

these assessment periods. What are

1:21:481:21:52

ministers doing about this? Am told

now that S's case could have been

1:21:521:21:58

treated more flexibly, but I wasn't

but when I first read to the DWP and

1:21:581:22:01

it is now unclear to me and my

constituents what the position is.

1:22:011:22:07

Finally, can I do something about

problems relating to ESA. If they

1:22:071:22:19

make a request which goes to

tribunal, that TSA claim will be

1:22:191:22:23

cancelled and even if they win the

claim, it cannot be reinstated and

1:22:231:22:26

they are forced to remain on UC. My

understanding is that though was not

1:22:261:22:30

initially the case or the intention.

Claimants are not being told that

1:22:301:22:34

when a tribunal case starts, they

can have the reinstatement of their

1:22:341:22:38

ESA claim. So could the minister

address that point, because it is

1:22:381:22:43

putting further pressure on sick and

disabled claimants who ought to be

1:22:431:22:46

getting decent support from the

benefits system and are not?

1:22:461:22:56

When I was able privilege to hear

the maiden speech, but I also wants

1:22:561:23:03

to congratulate the member for

Birkenhead visit during this debate.

1:23:031:23:06

It was very interesting to hear what

he had to say today in the chamber

1:23:061:23:12

and that his constituents. The House

has debated Universal Credit

1:23:121:23:16

extensively over recent weeks and I

am proud to take part again today.

1:23:161:23:19

The principle of Universal Credit is

a very good one which the opposition

1:23:191:23:24

has said on many occasions that they

support. But I have been concerned

1:23:241:23:28

around the dialogue of the roll-out

of Universal Credit in the recent

1:23:281:23:32

weeks. I believe this has caused

much distress amongst potential

1:23:321:23:36

claimants and people who are waiting

to switch to Universal Credit. For

1:23:361:23:40

as long as I can remember, the

benefit system in this country has

1:23:401:23:46

been burdensome and complex. I have

lost count of the amount of people

1:23:461:23:49

who have had issues with working and

claiming benefits. Job-seeker

1:23:491:23:56

allowance, working tax credits and

so on. I have also lost count of the

1:23:561:24:00

number of people who have said there

must be a better way of doing

1:24:001:24:04

things. We do indeed want a welfare

system which supports the most

1:24:041:24:10

vulnerable and is also therefore

when people fall on hard times and

1:24:101:24:17

need help. And being made to claim

benefits of which need to be paid

1:24:171:24:24

back. The assumption is that this is

wrong, that individuals should not

1:24:241:24:30

have to pay back advanced payments

which are indeed loans without

1:24:301:24:36

interest. But will be very grateful

they received by the claimants when

1:24:361:24:42

they are in need of money due to the

situation in which they suddenly

1:24:421:24:48

find themselves. I am just wondering

what members have thought when I,

1:24:481:24:52

like many others, have been

confronted by constituents who have

1:24:521:24:57

received large bills from the DWP.

When there has been mistakes with

1:24:571:25:02

information given and where there

have been overpayments made when

1:25:021:25:07

claiming working tax credits. The

members believe that those claimants

1:25:071:25:09

should not have been paid back? With

the situation better than with

1:25:091:25:17

Universal Credit? There is also an

assumption that because of these

1:25:171:25:19

advance payments they will

automatically get into arrears with

1:25:191:25:23

their rent. Which will result in

them getting evicted. I can only

1:25:231:25:31

speak from my experience and from my

own constituency, and I do not have

1:25:311:25:36

any examples where people are being

evicted from their homes within six

1:25:361:25:38

weeks. In actual fact, I have seen

quite the opposite in these

1:25:381:25:44

situations. As we have heard before,

currently approximately 40% of

1:25:441:25:50

Universal Credit claimants are in

work and that number of people

1:25:501:25:55

moving into work once on universal

tax credit is increasing. Universal

1:25:551:25:59

tax credit is part of a welfare

reform which is needed and has been

1:25:591:26:05

designed to help people and move

more people into work. And for so

1:26:051:26:13

long many people have been trapped

in the benefit system, people who

1:26:131:26:17

want to work or work longer hours,

but the stress and complexity of

1:26:171:26:22

doing all this without the risk of

losing all their benefits in one go

1:26:221:26:26

and having to pay back large sums

when mistakes had been made due to

1:26:261:26:30

complexities in the current system.

I want, and I know my constituents

1:26:301:26:36

want, a system that helps people but

does not put people off taking

1:26:361:26:41

opportunities. I believe the system

will do. There are always things

1:26:411:26:50

that need to be improved once

instrumentation begins so I am

1:26:501:26:53

pleased that the Government has

taken care to do a gradually

1:26:531:26:57

roll-out of the nine years, moving

to 10% of the current claimant

1:26:571:27:01

accounts. The roll-out, in my

opinion, is being taken in a

1:27:011:27:06

measured and steady way, enabling

the Government to address issues.

1:27:061:27:09

Over recent weeks I had heard a

number of members say that Universal

1:27:091:27:13

Credit is getting people into debt

and causing people to get evicted.

1:27:131:27:17

This does concern me greatly. The

rationale is that Universal Credit

1:27:171:27:22

is paid in arrears and in principle

this is a good idea and does form

1:27:221:27:29

part of how we need to reform

welfare. I have been very concerned

1:27:291:27:33

with the accusations that this has

been done deliberately to

1:27:331:27:35

disadvantaged people when they are

in need of help and maybe at very

1:27:351:27:40

difficult times in their lives. In

all debates, ministers have been

1:27:401:27:44

very clear, people who need advance

payments will get them within five

1:27:441:27:47

days. In conclusion, I would hope

that the opposition, after today, do

1:27:471:27:53

work constructively with the

Government to try and increase and

1:27:531:27:56

help the roll-out.

I am very pleased

to take part in this debate because

1:27:561:28:05

in my constituency 10,700 households

are going to be moved on to

1:28:051:28:08

Universal Credit. That is 21,000

people. That is almost one quarter

1:28:081:28:12

of my constituents. On December the

13th, new claims and change of

1:28:121:28:18

circumstances are going to be moved

across. Over Christmas, many people

1:28:181:28:25

will face a six week gap in their

income, not so much a Merry

1:28:251:28:33

Christmas, a Victorian Christmas

that even Scrooge did not think.

1:28:331:28:36

Ministers have banged on about

advance payments. Let's look at what

1:28:361:28:40

this means in practice. A single

disabled person with a £400 a month

1:28:401:28:47

payment takes an advance of £200 to

pay their rent. If all goes

1:28:471:28:53

according to plan, they will then

have their payment abated so that

1:28:531:28:59

their income over the next four and

a half months are 200, 320, 320,

1:28:591:29:06

360. In other words, instead of an

income of £1800 of the period, it is

1:29:061:29:13

£1200. It is not a weight, it is a

cut. Many will feel that over

1:29:131:29:18

Christmas it is the cruellest cut.

Seven years ago in my constituency

1:29:181:29:24

there were no food banks. After

seven years of Tory Government, we

1:29:241:29:28

have seven food banks. Previously,

Labour members have talked about the

1:29:281:29:34

need to address free school meals.

In my opinion every child in a

1:29:341:29:40

Universal Credit family should be

getting free school meals. But now

1:29:401:29:45

to add to the loss of income, in the

six-week period, children do not get

1:29:451:29:49

the free school meals either.

Ministers also talk about preparing

1:29:491:29:54

people for work. It is and in work

benefits. In my constituency, 4500

1:29:541:30:09

households being moved over, that is

40%, are already in work and have

1:30:091:30:13

jobs.

My understanding is that if

you have ever received free school

1:30:131:30:21

meals before being on benefits

before, you continue to receive

1:30:211:30:26

them. It is only if you are new to

the benefit system that there may be

1:30:261:30:30

a delay.

That is not the case for

new claims and change of

1:30:301:30:36

circumstances. I am sorry to inform

the honourable lady. I am alarmed at

1:30:361:30:40

what is happening to win and in low

paid work. -- women. Many are trying

1:30:401:30:48

with great difficulty to do their

best to balance their need to earn

1:30:481:30:54

an income with their

responsibilities of collecting their

1:30:541:30:57

children from school and looking

after them properly. They may be

1:30:571:31:01

work 20 hours a week in order to get

the right balance. But the

1:31:011:31:07

Government is now going to employ

advisers to harass them to increase

1:31:071:31:12

their hours. When Labour was in

power we had different rules for

1:31:121:31:16

single parents then with other

families. It seems to me that what

1:31:161:31:19

this Government is trying to do is

not help lone parents, it is grind

1:31:191:31:25

them down and grind down their

children as well. Furthermore, the

1:31:251:31:29

situation of women fleeing domestic

violence is even worse.

I am a

1:31:291:31:39

member under the Labour Government,

single mothers coming to me, unable

1:31:391:31:43

to continue work because they are

better off on benefits. -- I

1:31:431:31:52

remember. Does the honourable member

not agree that this system is to

1:31:521:31:57

help people to move into work?

I'm

sorry, the honourable lady is

1:31:571:32:03

absolutely wrong. I looked through

the statutory instruments myself,

1:32:031:32:06

and when we left Government you were

always £40 a week better off in work

1:32:061:32:13

than not in work, and those are the

facts. Women fleeing domestic

1:32:131:32:17

violence are in an even worse

situation. When they arrived at the

1:32:171:32:23

refuge, they have to register their

change of address as a change of

1:32:231:32:27

circumstances, so they will be in

the vanguard of these people who are

1:32:271:32:29

going to have a six-week gap in

their income. They may even mean

1:32:291:32:35

that some of them don't flee violent

partners because they are worried

1:32:351:32:38

about the effect. In Bishop

Auckland, huge preparations are now

1:32:381:32:44

being made for the roll-out, the

council is employing more people,

1:32:441:32:48

their housing associations are

employing more people, unlike I'm

1:32:481:32:52

sorry to say, the job centres who

should be employing more people. The

1:32:521:32:56

housing association is increasing

its provisions for bad debt

1:32:561:33:04

fourfold. This means that money that

would have gone to building new

1:33:041:33:07

homes is now going to deal with this

Government induced crisis in the

1:33:071:33:15

housing system. Three months ago I

asked to go on one of the digital

1:33:151:33:19

courses to see how people are

supported by the Jobcentre. This is

1:33:191:33:26

a major issue in my constituency

because we had very bad broadband in

1:33:261:33:31

the oral areas and we have very high

levels of digital exclusion.

1:33:311:33:35

Ministers need to keep in mind, 5

million people in this country and

1:33:351:33:40

never sent an e-mail. These are

predominantly people on low incomes,

1:33:401:33:44

the very people who are affected by

this change over to Universal

1:33:441:33:47

Credit. We raised this with

ministers five years ago, it still

1:33:471:33:51

has not been sorted out. When you

make the claim, some single men

1:33:511:33:56

really done this were telling me,

you are timed out after 45 minutes

1:33:561:34:02

if you can't complete it. It is very

difficult to complete in that time

1:34:021:34:05

because there is no written guidance

telling you what documents you have

1:34:051:34:09

to produce and stand in. -- scan.

I'm not saying the only problems

1:34:091:34:18

with this are administrative. I

think there are fundamental problems

1:34:181:34:21

with Universal Credit. Number one of

which is that George Osborne took

1:34:211:34:27

£3.5 billion out of the system. The

problem is that the Government

1:34:271:34:34

refuses to recognise that people

need these payments. Because of that

1:34:341:34:38

refusal, the rents are too low, the

payment gaps are too long, the

1:34:381:34:49

tapers are too high. Let's fix the

system!

I am now going to drop to

1:34:491:34:55

four minutes to make sure that

everyone time. It has interventions

1:34:551:34:59

that is killing it.

I'm pleased to

have the opportunity to talk in this

1:34:591:35:07

debate. I have been looking at the

issue of Universal Credit, Proto

1:35:071:35:11

plans that Universal Credit going

about five years, it is a pleasure

1:35:111:35:15

to work with the right honourable

member he is a friend on the work

1:35:151:35:21

and pensions select committee on

this issue. To take us back to where

1:35:211:35:24

this all began and to take us back

to the reason why, in principle, we

1:35:241:35:31

have cross-party agreement on

Universal Credit, is that the system

1:35:311:35:36

we had before was not good enough.

It was set up with good intentions

1:35:361:35:43

and we know that it was a way of

trying to take people out of poverty

1:35:431:35:46

by giving them hand-outs. However,

in doing so, and the way it was set

1:35:461:35:54

up, it actually discouraged people

from taking more work. And inhibited

1:35:541:36:00

their ability to move on in life, to

improve this situation is and to

1:36:001:36:04

support their family. It was out of

that realisation that Universal

1:36:041:36:08

Credit was born. The desire to build

a welfare system that would slowly

1:36:081:36:13

remove benefits as people moved into

work. That is to say that it would

1:36:131:36:17

actively encourage people to take

more hours and be better off. And at

1:36:171:36:22

the same time to create a system in

which a world in a life out of work,

1:36:221:36:28

mirrored the life in work. That

means that you are in work to find

1:36:281:36:34

work, let's say there is an

expectation that you will look for

1:36:341:36:37

work, you will sign a contract for

that commitment. Your benefits will

1:36:371:36:43

be paid on a monthly basis so that

when you moved into work, if you

1:36:431:36:47

moved into monthly employment, you

would be ready for that. I cannot

1:36:471:36:52

accept the argument that is

sometimes made, that some people

1:36:521:36:54

will never be able to cope on

monthly payments. I feel that is

1:36:541:36:58

extremely insulting to many people

out there. I disagree with the

1:36:581:37:04

honourable lady, it is. What we now

have is a system coming into

1:37:041:37:10

being... You can shake your head but

it is true, it is insulting to

1:37:101:37:14

people to say they will never be

able to cope with monthly payments.

1:37:141:37:18

I challenge her to have that

conversation with many people who

1:37:181:37:22

are looking for work, because they

would be insulted by it. It is

1:37:221:37:26

unfortunate that she laughs at this,

because it is true. This is very

1:37:261:37:33

insulting way of carrying on!

Anyone

can manage on a monthly payment that

1:37:331:37:44

is £2000 a month. But managing on a

monthly payment on £500 a month is

1:37:441:37:48

rather more difficult.

The

honourable lady will recognise that

1:37:481:37:52

there are a lot of people who do

manage to do that. What we have

1:37:521:37:56

within Universal Credit...

1:37:561:38:03

I have had enough of this

opposition. Under the Universal

1:38:031:38:09

Credit system that we now have,

there is personal budgeting support

1:38:091:38:15

which no one on the other side of

the House has referred to which

1:38:151:38:19

offers money advice in order to help

people with a four week payment and

1:38:191:38:24

which also offers people alternative

payment arrangements so that they

1:38:241:38:27

can have their money paid direct to

their landlord. I am sorry to hear

1:38:271:38:32

that the member for Stratford found

that was not working well in her

1:38:321:38:37

Jobcentre. I have spoken to people

in my Jobcentre and I was pleased to

1:38:371:38:41

see that they were completely on top

of how that system worked. Within

1:38:411:38:46

Universal Credit, we do of course

have a lot of problems which have

1:38:461:38:51

been talked about which have

emanated from the long wait for

1:38:511:38:56

people coming into the system. At

the start of the process, there were

1:38:561:39:01

too many people waiting for too

long. It is something the select

1:39:011:39:06

committee's report has drawn on.

However, since that first phase, a

1:39:061:39:10

number of improvements have been

made. Within that, we have had the

1:39:101:39:18

landlord portal, which was

favourably received by people who

1:39:181:39:20

gave evidence to our committee,

saying it would help. We have also

1:39:201:39:25

seen the initial evidence interview,

the once and done process which

1:39:251:39:29

means that more information can be

brought into the system

1:39:291:39:32

straightaway. I say to the

honourable members opposite, you

1:39:321:39:38

cannot learn unless you test. I

thank my friend for giving way. He

1:39:381:39:49

is a great expert on this subject

and I would like to hear more of the

1:39:491:39:53

areas where he considers that we

have improved. If you don't want

1:39:531:39:58

people to speak, please say now,

because I can take them off the

1:39:581:40:01

list. That is what we are doing to

each other. I don't mind, but when

1:40:011:40:05

members don't get in, please realise

what is going on here. Thanks, Mr

1:40:051:40:11

Deputy Speaker. We are left now with

a system in which there is a

1:40:111:40:16

six-week wait for the initial

payment. It is worth reminding the

1:40:161:40:22

House why some of that exists. The

model of Universal Credit is about

1:40:221:40:28

having a month long assessment

period in which the system

1:40:281:40:30

understands how much you are earning

and adjusts your payments

1:40:301:40:33

accordingly. There must then be a

calculation time which works out how

1:40:331:40:38

much people are owed. At the moment,

that is a week, but when we met the

1:40:381:40:44

DWP head of Universal Credit, he

said they were working to bring that

1:40:441:40:47

down and it should be brought down

as a matter of urgency. At the other

1:40:471:40:51

end, we still have a weak's waiting

to. I don't disagree with the

1:40:511:40:57

government often, but my previous

colleagues in previous roles no that

1:40:571:41:05

I don't believe these waiting days

should exist. There have always been

1:41:051:41:08

a degree of waiting days in the

system, three days. But the

1:41:081:41:15

extension to four, which was not

made by this Secretary of State or

1:41:151:41:19

under this Chancellor of the

Exchequer, should not have been

1:41:191:41:21

introduced. That is why my committee

has called on the government to

1:41:211:41:26

remove those seven waiting days. We

should not be pausing the roll-out,

1:41:261:41:33

but we should be making this

adjustment.

I was hoping to walk

1:41:331:41:42

this House irate timeline that what

this Hazard through the procedure of

1:41:421:41:49

receiving Universal Credit, but the

times not allow me to do that. In my

1:41:491:41:52

constituency, we have had a roll-out

for 12 months. This is the abridged

1:41:521:41:55

version. Based on what constituents

have told me first-hand, my

1:41:551:42:01

archetypal constituent, Miss Smith,

is 50 years old, married and lives

1:42:011:42:07

in Glasgow. She has been working in

a local shop and has left on health

1:42:071:42:11

grounds. She goes to a local

Jobcentre in Glasgow, only to find

1:42:111:42:16

it has been shot. She instead walks

the three miles to the Jobcentre --

1:42:161:42:21

it has been shut, but no one could

advise her on the next Jobcentre on

1:42:211:42:25

which benefits she is entitled to.

She is told staff are benefits

1:42:251:42:29

trained they are not able to offer

options. Mrs Smith subsequently

1:42:291:42:32

learns of a Universal Credit advice

organisation. She applies on mine.

1:42:321:42:38

This would make Mrs Smith unlike the

50% of my constituents who say they

1:42:381:42:45

could not use a computer. Mrs Smith

lodges her application today, the

1:42:451:42:50

16th of November. By the 23rd of

November, she realises that though

1:42:501:42:54

her application has been lodged, it

is in fact the least another month

1:42:541:42:58

of waiting while the entitlement is

calculated. At this point, Mrs

1:42:581:43:03

Smith's remaining savings are used

up by rent, council tax, utility

1:43:031:43:07

bills, the usual things. Her husband

works and they have a low income and

1:43:071:43:12

there are now struggling. It is

worth remembering that in 2016, the

1:43:121:43:16

money advice service found that 16

million people in the UK had less

1:43:161:43:23

than £100 in savings. As November

presses on, Mrs Smith's situation

1:43:231:43:28

becomes more desperate as she had

underestimated the amount of time it

1:43:281:43:30

would take to receive support. This

story is based on real-life examples

1:43:301:43:35

that my constituents have brought to

me. People don't fall into Universal

1:43:351:43:42

Credit trend, they learn as they go

along. At the start of December, she

1:43:421:43:45

takes her granddaughter to the

movies using a credit card to pay.

1:43:451:43:50

She is accumulating debt. By

mid-December, she applies for a

1:43:501:43:54

crisis grant and visits a local food

bank. The constant pressure of

1:43:541:43:59

having no money begins to creep into

every facet of Mrs Smith's life. She

1:43:591:44:04

stressed and the relationship with

her husband is suffering.

1:44:041:44:10

Nonetheless, she gets her first

Universal Credit payment sometime

1:44:101:44:12

after the new year. Her husband is

paid weekly and coupled with

1:44:121:44:17

real-time income data, it means her

income fluctuates wildly as a

1:44:171:44:22

result. She is now locked into a

boom and bust cycle with Universal

1:44:221:44:26

Credit sometimes falling to almost

nothing, and waiting eight weeks

1:44:261:44:33

with one assessment period. So what

will the future hold for real

1:44:331:44:36

residents of Inverclyde apart from

uncertainty, stress and poverty

1:44:361:44:40

being inflicted on them by this

system? I am asking the UK

1:44:401:44:44

Government politely to not ignore

the overwhelming evidence that

1:44:441:44:48

Universal Credit is not working.

Saying the predecessor was not worse

1:44:481:44:54

does not help my constituents. The

roll-out must be halted. Take time

1:44:541:45:01

to reform the fundamental flaws in

Universal Credit and implement a

1:45:011:45:06

system that truly offers the

stability of which they can build

1:45:061:45:09

their lives.

It is a pleasure to

speak in this debate and it was a

1:45:091:45:18

pleasure to listen to the maiden

speech of the honourable member for

1:45:181:45:20

Banff and Buchan. To be fair to her

predecessor, she managed to get me

1:45:201:45:28

into the same division lobby as the

Scottish National Party on the bill

1:45:281:45:32

she put through, which was very

welcome. I join him in wishing her

1:45:321:45:37

all the best for her future. It is

important to discuss Universal

1:45:371:45:45

Credit again, as it will have a

significant impact on my

1:45:451:45:49

constituency, as it has on others.

In having this debate, we have to be

1:45:491:45:54

careful not to make out that the

current system is fantastic. There

1:45:541:46:00

has always been an illogicality to

having a council system for some and

1:46:001:46:05

if it's like housing benefit and

council tax and then having the DWP

1:46:051:46:08

for income related benefits. When I

was deputy leader of a large council

1:46:081:46:12

in the Midlands, a lot of time had

to be devoted to administering

1:46:121:46:16

benefits which were national

benefits fundamentally. You couldn't

1:46:161:46:19

change any great policy about them.

It raised the question of why a

1:46:191:46:26

local council was getting involved

with the housing benefit element. In

1:46:261:46:36

terms of the principle of Universal

Credit, it is the right move. When

1:46:361:46:41

we look at the change from weekly to

monthly payments, we must also look

1:46:411:46:47

at the change that would make more

widely. The bunch of vultures at

1:46:471:46:54

Brad has advertised their payments

as being weekly, so they look

1:46:541:46:57

affordable. -- at BrightHouse. But

you have to look at the bigger

1:46:571:47:03

picture, which is always in tiny

writing. If it is weekly this much,

1:47:031:47:07

what it will finally cost you, is

that much. That might be something

1:47:071:47:14

which would bring home the costs of

what those appalling deals produce.

1:47:141:47:21

I welcome the fact that it is a

phased roll-out over nine years.

1:47:211:47:26

Many of us remember the system with

tax credits when it came in in one

1:47:261:47:30

go. The current issue with tax

credits is that because it is

1:47:301:47:35

administered with HMRC, it is dealt

with as if you are someone who has

1:47:351:47:39

underpaid tax, which is not

appropriate for those on low

1:47:391:47:43

incomes. Those expecting a tax bill

at the end of the year may make

1:47:431:47:46

provision for that. Somebody who

thought this was the amount of

1:47:461:47:49

benefit they had under a tax credit

system does not. In terms of its

1:47:491:47:55

roll-out into Torbay in 2018, my

team have been working with the DWP

1:47:551:47:59

for them to undertake training

around the system and respond to

1:47:591:48:03

constituent queries. I recognise

that there will be work with

1:48:031:48:08

partners. One of the affairs raised

by Don Dudley, a benefits adviser at

1:48:081:48:15

a great organisation in a deprived

area in my constituency, is looking

1:48:151:48:19

at the current delays there are

around appeals. He says if that

1:48:191:48:25

exists now, what reassurance can be

given to make sure similar problems

1:48:251:48:30

don't come into systems based

Universal Credit? I hope the

1:48:301:48:37

government is listening to these

issues around the six-week initial

1:48:371:48:42

word-macro. Asos regulation in the

press this week, being conscious

1:48:421:48:45

that we have the Budget next week --

I saw speculation in the press this

1:48:451:48:51

week. Perhaps the minister can

explain whether those with issues

1:48:511:48:57

can have their rent paid directly to

their landlord. This has been a

1:48:571:49:00

useful debate for the most part. It

is right that we continue to have

1:49:001:49:04

these so that we can ensure that

when the system does roll out to the

1:49:041:49:08

remaining 90% of claimants who are

not covered by the current roll-out,

1:49:081:49:12

it is a system that works well.

I

thank the honourable member for

1:49:121:49:19

Birkenhead for bringing this debate

today and congratulate the

1:49:191:49:22

honourable member for Banff and

Buchan on his maiden speech. I note

1:49:221:49:26

that the compote of -- comparative

beauties or our constituencies are

1:49:261:49:33

yet another thing to disagree on in

this chamber. Inverness had the

1:49:331:49:37

pilot of Universal Credit in 2013. I

am always astounded by the length

1:49:371:49:42

that members who haven't experienced

Universal Credit go to to defend the

1:49:421:49:46

system, when they haven't actually

seen what has happened. I know that

1:49:461:49:51

the honourable member for South

Cambridgeshire, who is not in her

1:49:511:49:54

place at the moment, had said that

Jobcentre staff were now telling her

1:49:541:49:59

that Universal Credit was only 60%

built. That is since 2013, and we

1:49:591:50:06

have been feeling the impact locally

on a daily basis since that

1:50:061:50:11

inception. Make no mistake, you know

for the sole credit -- Universal

1:50:111:50:18

Credit, in its current form, without

being fixed, is a disaster. It is

1:50:181:50:22

only going to get worse. As it

grows, the resources to support it

1:50:221:50:31

are stretched further. I see members

opposite shaking their heads. They

1:50:311:50:34

have accused me previously

scaremongering. So I invited them

1:50:341:50:42

all and the minister and the Prime

Minister to come to a summit in

1:50:421:50:46

Inverness to hear from the agencies

and the people involved about the

1:50:461:50:52

problems being imposed on them. And

none took up the offer. They would

1:50:521:50:57

have heard harrowing stories. As I

tried to relate yesterday in my

1:50:571:51:02

question to the Prime Minister from

the agencies, but none of them did.

1:51:021:51:07

Instead when I raised that question

yesterday, there was laughter from

1:51:071:51:11

the benches opposite. It is recorded

and people can listen to that. I

1:51:111:51:22

would ask them, what is funny, the

fact that it is harrowing, the fact

1:51:221:51:28

that I was talking about cancer

patients who were dying before their

1:51:281:51:31

Universal Credit claims came

through, the fact that I was talking

1:51:311:51:36

about terminally ill people who have

to self declare their terminally --

1:51:361:51:43

that they are terminally ill, even

if they have said to doctors that

1:51:431:51:46

they don't want to know their fate.

How cruel is that? And yet there was

1:51:461:51:50

laughter. Listen members opposite

are saying it was not that. Listen

1:51:501:51:58

to the question, and you will hear

it. If it was not any of those

1:51:581:52:04

things, was at the fact that we are

having problems in Inverness? The

1:52:041:52:10

manager of the local Citizens Advice

Bureau tweeted yesterday "It is sad

1:52:101:52:15

when the misery and suffering caused

by Universal Credit can be found so

1:52:151:52:19

amusing. I suggest they try it for a

few months". Mr Deputy Speaker, some

1:52:191:52:27

adjustment is available from the

Scottish Government, but Universal

1:52:271:52:30

Credit is reserved. And the constant

attempts to pass the buck and

1:52:301:52:36

abdicate responsibility for what is

the responsibility of the UK

1:52:361:52:39

Government is not good enough.

1:52:391:52:46

I want to try and cover this e-mail.

They say it is chaos causing him and

1:52:461:52:53

his colleagues. It is an

unacceptable. It is not fit for

1:52:531:53:01

purpose and people phone and begged

to be let out on the bottom of it,

1:53:011:53:04

but it is not possible. How long

before one of them threaten suicide?

1:53:041:53:12

There are too many issues with

Universal Credit and not enough time

1:53:121:53:15

to deal with it today. They need to

halt it and fix it. -- let back on

1:53:151:53:21

benefits.

It is a pleasure to follow

many colleagues including my

1:53:211:53:26

honourable friend for Banff and

Buchan. This is my third time I've

1:53:261:53:29

spoken on Universal Credit. I will

give way.

My honourable friend says

1:53:291:53:36

it is a pleasure to follow so many

speeches, but which she agree with

1:53:361:53:40

me that the speech she has just

followed in tone and manner has got

1:53:401:53:44

it completely wrong. There are

member is on both sides who want to

1:53:441:53:47

make this work.

I know the member

opposite and I can assure him that

1:53:471:53:53

nobody here in these benches was

laughing at your comment. I would

1:53:531:53:59

also say that I have been...

Unfortunately I could not take up

1:53:591:54:04

his kind officer to go to Inverness.

I was busy in Redditch doing exactly

1:54:041:54:10

what he said, meeting the housing

providers in Redditch to make sure

1:54:101:54:15

that roll-out is going well.

Universal Credit is designed as an

1:54:151:54:19

agile system. I would just like to

make this point in the short time I

1:54:191:54:24

have. I used to work in software

development, so I understand what

1:54:241:54:30

this actually means in terms of

designing a very, very complicated

1:54:301:54:34

system that deals with individuals

and their very unique and different

1:54:341:54:39

circumstances. We have heard calls

from the members opposite to pause

1:54:391:54:43

the system. But I don't that would

actually fix the problems they have

1:54:431:54:48

identified. And they are right to

identify the problems and the

1:54:481:54:52

Minister has recognised there are

problems in the system. We all want

1:54:521:54:55

to work together to fix those. The

nature of an agile system is that it

1:54:551:54:59

changes all the time in response to

people using it. That is how he

1:54:591:55:04

learned and improve the system. We

have a releasing evidence of that.

1:55:041:55:08

The Prime Minister highlighted one

specific example yesterday in her

1:55:081:55:11

answer where she says, actually we

have seen the number of people who

1:55:111:55:16

are in arrears while they are on

Universal Credit already go down by

1:55:161:55:20

significant numbers in the last four

months. I think the number is a

1:55:201:55:23

third. That is evidence that this

system is improving as it is being

1:55:231:55:27

rolled out. It is a very slow

roll-out that is taking nine years

1:55:271:55:32

altogether. And I think we need to

recognise, just as we recognise that

1:55:321:55:35

there are issues that have been

rightly highlighted in this chamber,

1:55:351:55:38

I hope they are highlighted in a

serious fashion. It is also right to

1:55:381:55:43

recognise the real work and the

progress that the Government has

1:55:431:55:46

already done in addressing some of

the serious issues and I do hope

1:55:461:55:49

that they will do more as well. Now,

some of the members here have been

1:55:491:55:54

incredibly critical in their time

and I find that wrong in this

1:55:541:56:00

debate. This is a very serious

debate. We are here because we care

1:56:001:56:07

about our constituents. Now, I am a

very privileged person and I am the

1:56:071:56:13

first person to say that I have

never had to rely on benefits. I'm

1:56:131:56:17

sure that some of the members

opposite have not had to rely on

1:56:171:56:20

benefits either. But that does not

include any of this from having the

1:56:201:56:25

compassion and empathy are people

that are in that situation. That is

1:56:251:56:28

why I have been to my Jobcentre and

that is why I have spent a very long

1:56:281:56:35

time discussing with the social

landlords, the people that work in

1:56:351:56:39

debt counselling, and the staff in

the Jobcentre themselves. And I

1:56:391:56:43

don't actually recognise the stories

I have heard about the Jobcentres,

1:56:431:56:50

because in my constituency in

Redditch, I heard first-hand from

1:56:501:56:55

people in the Jobcentre working,

about how hard they are working to

1:56:551:56:57

support the most vulnerable

customers through their journeys and

1:56:571:57:02

they are proud to do that. They have

a policy there that they will give

1:57:021:57:06

those advance payments by default.

They are not forcing people to ask

1:57:061:57:11

for them, they are working hard on

an individual basis with a tailored

1:57:111:57:15

package of support, to every single

claimant.

I have been on JFK and I

1:57:151:57:22

know what it is like -- jobseeker's

allowance. Universal Credit I'm

1:57:221:57:31

seeing on a daily basis... But we

know that children are suffering and

1:57:311:57:37

go hungry for weeks and that is the

testimony of people in this job

1:57:371:57:41

centres.

I have no doubt that the

Minister will comment on that but

1:57:411:57:48

that is not the test me I heard

first-hand in my Jobcentre in

1:57:481:57:52

Redditch. They told me that they

care about their customers and want

1:57:521:57:56

to get the help they need and are

proud to provide that help to

1:57:561:58:00

people. I would just finished by

saying that I note that we have

1:58:001:58:04

heard about some of these landlords

that are sending landlords to their

1:58:041:58:08

tenants who are potentially going on

to Universal Credit. Really, I think

1:58:081:58:13

that is absolutely unacceptable

behaviour of those landlords, those

1:58:131:58:18

private landlords doing that. I

thank you it is very -- I think it

1:58:181:58:23

is very irresponsible to be raising

this issue from the privileged

1:58:231:58:27

position he has. I think it is

irresponsible to do that without

1:58:271:58:32

condemning that behaviour. That is

the behaviour he should be

1:58:321:58:36

condemning from those landlords.

There are also ways, just as we have

1:58:361:58:42

seen support for social landlords to

have those rent payments made

1:58:421:58:49

directly to the landlords, there is

also were going on within the

1:58:491:58:53

private rented sector ought to bring

that support to those tenants. We

1:58:531:58:56

must bring that support.

She makes a

very valid point about the landlord

1:58:561:59:03

and indeed myself and the honourable

member in front of me will be

1:59:031:59:09

meeting with a social landlord

tomorrow. I do think it will be a

1:59:091:59:12

matter that in due course, ministers

but at the Holyrood level and at

1:59:121:59:17

Westminster should look at. I cannot

think of the modus operandi, it is

1:59:171:59:20

not the right to me at the state at

all.

I will finish by saying that we

1:59:201:59:27

all work together proactively across

the entire system, that is very

1:59:271:59:32

important. Landlords of course have

a stake in this. They told me in

1:59:321:59:39

Redditch that yes people are in

arrears when they go in, that they

1:59:391:59:41

do not have a single case of people

being evicted. They will not be

1:59:411:59:45

evicting people, but instead they

will be putting the port in place

1:59:451:59:48

for those vulnerable tenants.

If

what I read in the media is true,

1:59:481:59:56

then the Government are planning to

reduce the six-week wait to four

1:59:562:00:00

weeks. And I do hope the Minister

will be able to confirm this.

2:00:002:00:05

However, although this change is

welcome, it does not go far enough.

2:00:052:00:11

The single parent charity,

Gingerbread, I found that one third

2:00:112:00:15

of single parents were in debt

before Universal Credit. And when

2:00:152:00:20

parents were travelling, Universal

Credit puts them at risk of more

2:00:202:00:26

hardship. Gingerbread recommends

more, including a delay to a first

2:00:262:00:33

payment, including communication of

advance payments, introducing longer

2:00:332:00:35

repayment plans, and importantly,

removing options for fun at the

2:00:352:00:42

payments are those most in need.

Whilst I appreciate the intention

2:00:422:00:45

behind Universal Credit, that it is

to emulate the world of work with a

2:00:452:00:51

payment method which reflects the

manner in which monthly paid workers

2:00:512:00:56

are remunerated, I think we should

take a step back from this and

2:00:562:00:59

consider that many people in receipt

of Universal Credit are in dire

2:00:592:01:03

financial circumstances and that

perhaps trying to emulate the world

2:01:032:01:08

of work is just a shade too

ambitious for the second stanzas in

2:01:082:01:12

which many claimants find

themselves. -- circumstances.

2:01:122:01:21

Preparation for the world of work

could be incorporated into the

2:01:212:01:27

support services to reach laymen.

This can be tailored to each claim

2:01:272:01:33

on individual issues. Other

charities also recommend reducing

2:01:332:01:35

the current six-week wait for a

first payment to two weeks, such as

2:01:352:01:43

the child poverty action group and

the citizens advice bureau. I have

2:01:432:01:47

tabled several questions on

Universal Credit, and one of them

2:01:472:01:49

has consented an issue raised with

me by a CAD work in Hayward in my

2:01:492:01:55

constituency. It is that if they

Universal Credit claimant makes an

2:01:552:02:00

online application they must also

arrange an appointment with the

2:02:002:02:02

Jobcentre and a failure to do so in

invalidates that claim. Failure to

2:02:022:02:10

this is a very common reason for

applications decline. And so killing

2:02:102:02:21

the debt and despair that some

clients find themselves in. They

2:02:212:02:23

will soon be implementing the option

of a text message reminder and will

2:02:232:02:28

also be reviewing their requirements

on the online orientation processors

2:02:282:02:36

to make sure all the requirements

are as clear as possible for all

2:02:362:02:39

claimants. Another issue is that...

Is to replace that of working tax

2:02:392:02:50

credits to entitle children to free

school meals. The answer I received

2:02:502:02:54

from the department was that no

decision had yet been taken or

2:02:542:02:57

stopped and I cried, our proposals

on this matter will be announced in

2:02:572:03:01

due course. I -- quote. I hope the

Minister might be able to provide

2:03:012:03:10

some clarity on this. The Government

continually repeats its mantra of

2:03:102:03:18

test, learn, rectify. The question I

would ask is why do they feel it is

2:03:182:03:22

appropriate to carry out tests on

the most bon vulnerable in our

2:03:222:03:36

society. When are they starting to

rectify the damage it has a ready

2:03:362:03:39

been done?

I begin by congratulating

my honourable friend and fellow

2:03:392:03:46

Scottish Conservative on his

excellent maiden speech. I also

2:03:462:03:51

express my appreciation to the

Minister of State for his

2:03:512:03:54

attentiveness and attentive to

detail is unsurpassed. To be clear,

2:03:542:03:58

I'm speaking as an avid supporter of

Universal Credit and someone fully

2:03:582:04:04

vested in the success of Universal

Credit in my constituency. I will

2:04:042:04:08

not rehearse the argument in favour

of welfare reform in general or

2:04:082:04:14

Universal Credit specifically. I

have already is broken twice on this

2:04:142:04:16

matter in recent weeks. Instead, I

wish to refer ruefully to certain

2:04:162:04:20

aspects of the select affairs

committee... The first matter I wish

2:04:202:04:28

to draw attention to is found on

page three producing a robust

2:04:282:04:34

statistical analysis on the impact

of Universal Credit. I endorse this.

2:04:342:04:40

When I asked a written question last

month about average times for

2:04:402:04:43

claimants waiting to receive their

first payments from completion of

2:04:432:04:48

the claims admission to Universal

Credit being paid into their bank

2:04:482:04:51

account, I was told we do not hold

this information. This is something

2:04:512:04:56

surprising to me as someone who

subscribes to the principle that

2:04:562:05:00

performance is measured and

performances improved. When

2:05:002:05:04

performance is measured and reported

back the rate of performance

2:05:042:05:09

improves is I am concerned about the

level of repayment. But the level of

2:05:092:05:22

repayment should consider matters

such as claimants existing benefits

2:05:222:05:28

and other debt repayments. I wonder

if they should not be a higher

2:05:282:05:31

minimum perhaps than which we

currently work with the low which

2:05:312:05:35

payments will not be extracted. I

had a case of a constituent that

2:05:352:05:39

after repayments was left with only

£61 for a month. Can there be some

2:05:392:05:44

additional discretion given to DWP

staff on repayments, especially when

2:05:442:05:50

our overpayments have occurred

especially due to acknowledge DWP

2:05:502:05:54

errors. The Government plan to

reduce the stand waiting time to one

2:05:542:06:01

month, and I concur with that

recommendation. I hope the Minister

2:06:012:06:05

will reflect on this recommendation.

Of course I accept that this comes

2:06:052:06:08

with a cost. These are budgetary

considerations and this is public

2:06:082:06:14

money which can't be spent twice.

But this is also a matter of

2:06:142:06:17

compassion. And experience of

sterling CAD is consistent with half

2:06:172:06:27

of middle income families have no

savings and less than half a month

2:06:272:06:31

's money. I continue to have

concerns about the application

2:06:312:06:37

process especially in rural areas,

online. And the difficulties that

2:06:372:06:42

applicants who are homeless and have

alcohol and drug addiction issues or

2:06:422:06:50

have no online facilities to make

claim or have mental health issues.

2:06:502:06:54

Anxiety and bipolar disorders. Is

there an application can be used in

2:06:542:07:00

extraordinary circumstances to help

address the needs of a small

2:07:002:07:02

minority of people who have genuine

anxiety about the digital system? I

2:07:022:07:07

would further ask the Minister did

consider allowing DWP staff to have

2:07:072:07:12

the option of having rent paid

directly to their landlord. I was so

2:07:122:07:17

asked if the Minister could consider

widening the circle of trusted

2:07:172:07:24

advisers, those who have direct

contact with WP staff to have

2:07:242:07:29

individual needs that can be

carefully managed. In closing, may I

2:07:292:07:34

speak of the regard and respect I

have the right honourable member of

2:07:342:07:38

Birkenhead and a member of his

select and asked the member to...

2:07:382:07:47

I will not take lessons from that

side about how angry we should be on

2:07:472:07:50

this issue. We are anticipating the

suffering, or we are experiencing

2:07:502:07:56

suffering in our communities. This

debate and all the expressions of

2:07:562:08:00

concern around the shambolic system

lead me to one question - what would

2:08:002:08:04

it take for the government to pause

this roll-out? When you have all of

2:08:042:08:10

the advice services, experts, local

authorities, housing associations,

2:08:102:08:14

private landlords and landlord

associations saying this system is

2:08:142:08:16

too riddled with problems to

continue with safety, and you still

2:08:162:08:21

choose to ignore their pleas, what

does it say about the people in

2:08:212:08:25

charge? This is an in work benefit

as much as it is an out of work

2:08:252:08:31

benefit. It is so predictable that

the Conservatives would use it a

2:08:312:08:36

dividing tactic, creating the

dangerous myth about those who can't

2:08:362:08:39

be bothered to work against those

who can, the strivers versus

2:08:392:08:43

shirkers rhetoric. Universal Credit

is about those who work as well as

2:08:432:08:48

not. If this government lasts, and

at the moment it appears as if it is

2:08:482:08:54

a big if, 7.2 million people will be

on Universal Credit by 2022. Half of

2:08:542:09:00

those will be in work. The system is

a scandal. There are too many issues

2:09:002:09:09

to raise, but I will highlight some

of the most important. The

2:09:092:09:14

word-macro has been mentioned.

People should not have to wait six

2:09:142:09:18

weeks. The system embeds financial

crisis from day one and if it is

2:09:182:09:22

announced in the Budget that there

will be a reduction in waiting time

2:09:222:09:25

by one week or even two, do not be

surprised if there are not cheers

2:09:252:09:31

all celebrations from the

organisations supporting people,

2:09:312:09:33

because they know it is only a

government tactic to release

2:09:332:09:36

political pressure on themselves.

Let's move on to the other problems.

2:09:362:09:41

Advance payments are not a solution.

They are calculated at 50% of the

2:09:412:09:47

claimant's entire amount and they

have to be repaid in six months and

2:09:472:09:51

they exacerbate debt.

Was she give

way?

Absolutely not! The enhanced

2:09:512:10:00

disability premium is callous and

part of a wider agenda of reducing

2:10:002:10:05

the welfare budget and will lead to

disabled people being worse off.

2:10:052:10:11

Direct payment of the claimant or

creating rent arrears. As of

2:10:112:10:16

yesterday, a company in my

constituency said 75% of people on

2:10:162:10:21

Universal Credit are already on rent

arrears of £810, because the wait

2:10:212:10:29

period and the financial demands on

my constituents are too high. Rent

2:10:292:10:33

is paid in advance, Universal Credit

in arrears. Not to mention the

2:10:332:10:39

issues about those who are

terminally ill having to go to the

2:10:392:10:42

Jobcentre themselves because they

will not give explicit content. I am

2:10:422:10:48

deeply concerned that the government

is rolling this out in my

2:10:482:10:51

constituency on the 13th of

December. The expected this payment

2:10:512:10:56

is the 28th of January. Who said

this roll-out date? Why did this get

2:10:562:11:01

signed off? These points are just

the headlines. I could go on and on

2:11:012:11:05

about the serious flaws of Universal

Credit. The government have had all

2:11:052:11:09

of the warning they need. They are

now choosing to inflict

2:11:092:11:15

Frankenstein's monster of a system

with little or no regard for the

2:11:152:11:18

well-being of people up and down

this country. I do not know how

2:11:182:11:22

people rolling this out sleep at

night.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I

2:11:222:11:33

welcome the constructive comments

from both sides of the House about

2:11:332:11:36

Universal Credit. I have set up an

all-party group to work with members

2:11:362:11:40

on all sides of the house and I

welcome those with concerns on every

2:11:402:11:45

bench joining that group so that we

can look seriously at all the

2:11:452:11:49

problems that are besetting

Universal Credit. I'm afraid the

2:11:492:11:53

six-week wait is just the start. It

is the start of a horrendous time

2:11:532:11:59

for anyone claiming Universal

Credit. It covers housing costs. In

2:11:592:12:04

my constituency, local housing

allowance for a three bedroomed

2:12:042:12:06

house for a family is £150 a week.

You get a seven-day weight where you

2:12:062:12:12

get no payments, so that is £150

down to start with. It is paid in

2:12:122:12:18

arrears. Your rent is paid in

advance, as honourable friends have

2:12:182:12:22

said. So you are £750 in arrears

before you even start receiving your

2:12:222:12:28

Universal Credit. That is wrong and

that is where all these arrears are

2:12:282:12:32

coming from. It is not people on low

pay who can't manage, it is a system

2:12:322:12:37

that doesn't take account of the

realities of their lives. When I

2:12:372:12:43

mentioned the six-week wait to the

minister on Monday and pointed out

2:12:432:12:46

that it was six weeks from Monday

until Christmas Day, that those who

2:12:462:12:52

are receiving Universal Credit who

are applying for it this week we'll

2:12:522:12:55

have to wait over six weeks, till

after Christmas, before receiving

2:12:552:13:01

their payment, they will have just

two weeks of pay to get by on over

2:13:012:13:06

those six weeks. Services will not

be open over Christmas. I appreciate

2:13:062:13:12

that the government want to wait for

a Budget in order to take action,

2:13:122:13:17

but people who are waiting for money

over Christmas, families who will be

2:13:172:13:21

able to afford no sort of Christmas,

need the government to act now and

2:13:212:13:28

to make sure they can receive the

payments they need to feed their

2:13:282:13:32

children and give them a decent

Christmas. When I asked the minister

2:13:322:13:37

this question on Monday, he

suggested that people could get more

2:13:372:13:41

hours of work in the run-up to

Christmas. And there are many

2:13:412:13:45

employers who are seeking additional

people to do overtime. Having worked

2:13:452:13:50

for many years for the shop workers

union, I can testify that lots of

2:13:502:13:54

people rely on their overtime in the

run-up to Christmas. Under tax

2:13:542:13:59

credit system is, that is perfectly

reasonable. They receive the pay

2:13:592:14:02

that they get of the day, because

there is an income disregard in tax

2:14:022:14:07

credits, whereas if your income is

increased for £50 a week on average,

2:14:072:14:13

you don't lose any tax credits.

There is nothing of that sort under

2:14:132:14:18

Universal Credit. For every pound

you earn extra in overtime under

2:14:182:14:22

Universal Credit, you lose at least

63p off your next Universal Credit

2:14:222:14:30

payment. Families who go into doing

overtime in good faith, as advised

2:14:302:14:34

by the minister, will find that next

month, their Universal Credit

2:14:342:14:38

payments will be falling by 63% or

even 75% of the overtime they have

2:14:382:14:46

earned by the time they get their

next Universal Credit payment. That

2:14:462:14:51

does not help them cover the costs

of Christmas. It does not help them

2:14:512:14:55

stay out of debt. I am suggesting

that you reduce the taper rate and

2:14:552:15:09

pay attention to the realities of

people's lives under a monthly

2:15:092:15:13

benefit system that hates them hard

as soon as they earn any extra. That

2:15:132:15:19

is an earnings disincentive and that

is what we have at the moment that

2:15:192:15:23

government must look at and make

sure that passporting benefits come

2:15:232:15:26

to everyone.

Order. Neil Coyle.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. This is the

2:15:262:15:35

start of the work on this matter.

Universal Credit has been a

2:15:352:15:42

disaster. Anyone who looks at the

original plan cannot conclude

2:15:422:15:46

anything other. It should have been

finished being rolled out this year.

2:15:462:15:51

Instead, it reaches 10% but has done

£10,000 of damage to those affected.

2:15:512:15:55

It has cost more, delivered yes and

it was always intended to cut help

2:15:552:16:00

for 450,000 disabled people through

accessing the disability premium and

2:16:002:16:09

making DLA Pip less generous for

disabled people in work and disabled

2:16:092:16:13

children. That was the intention and

it has been made less generous

2:16:132:16:15

since. The pretence has gone

smoothly and needs debunking.

2:16:152:16:20

Instead of listening, the government

has doubled down. They told us it

2:16:202:16:23

was tickety-boo a few weeks ago.

They said they didn't need to pause.

2:16:232:16:29

Then they didn't vote on it

themselves because they know it is

2:16:292:16:32

failing. They then published last

week. They revealed that short-term

2:16:322:16:38

supported housing is not compatible

with Universal Credit. They cannot

2:16:382:16:42

work together. The systems cannot

coalesce. They have yet to outline

2:16:422:16:47

how the structural incompatibility

will be changed. My home in

2:16:472:16:50

Southwark has been affected by

Universal Credit, being a test area.

2:16:502:16:53

I refer people every week to my food

bank. They have seen a third more

2:16:532:16:57

people this year and they have seen

a crippling of the children needing

2:16:572:17:00

help from the food bank due to

Universal Credit being extended to

2:17:002:17:03

parents. They have seen a tripling

of the children needing help. My

2:17:032:17:09

counsel has faced £6 million worth

of arrears from Universal Credit

2:17:092:17:12

recipient. The myth that people are

carrying arrears in debt over from

2:17:122:17:16

other systems is untrue. The average

housing benefit tenant on Universal

2:17:162:17:23

Credit is now £108 in arrears. Other

problems need to be fixed, including

2:17:232:17:32

tackling problems with payment

amounts. We have heard about

2:17:322:17:35

real-time information is. The

government also needs to make clear

2:17:352:17:41

payment options including

fortnightly payments. It needs to

2:17:412:17:45

make alternative payment

arrangements for some groups. It

2:17:452:17:47

needs to allow councils greater

management control. It needs to

2:17:472:17:51

maintain payments for people moving

on to Universal Credit from housing

2:17:512:17:56

credit and remove the seven-day

waiting time, which is an art icon.

2:17:562:18:00

Ministers have had the chance to fix

these issues and a few weeks ago

2:18:002:18:02

they denied the opportunity to do

that, which means that anyone trying

2:18:022:18:07

to claim Universal Credit today will

see Boxing Day before they get a

2:18:072:18:11

penny of support. Father Christmas

will arrive before any support. And

2:18:112:18:16

for some still, because of the

delays, the Easter bunny is likely

2:18:162:18:19

to arrive before they get a penny of

help from this government. I don't

2:18:192:18:24

believe in the Easter bunny, for the

record. But I am optimistic about

2:18:242:18:28

Father Christmas appearing to be in

the form of the minister offering an

2:18:282:18:31

early Christmas present and

announcing that he will tackle

2:18:312:18:33

delays in payments and will resolve

the other problems with Universal

2:18:332:18:37

Credit.

I congratulate the

honourable member for Birkenhead on

2:18:372:18:46

highlighting some of the deeply

rooted problems with the accelerated

2:18:462:18:50

roll-out of Universal Credit. It is

however indicative of this

2:18:502:18:55

government's complete disregard that

we find ourselves debating this

2:18:552:18:57

again. I want to highlight the

notable contributions of honourable

2:18:572:19:04

and right honourable members. Of

course, the honourable member for

2:19:042:19:08

Birkenhead, my honourable friends

from Glasgow South West, Inverclyde

2:19:082:19:17

and elsewhere. I also commend the

opposition members for Great Grimsby

2:19:172:19:23

and North West Durham and Bishop

Auckland for their passionate calls

2:19:232:19:25

to pause this and fix the system.

And I congratulate the honourable

2:19:252:19:32

member for Banff and Buchan for his

kind words for a colleague and

2:19:322:19:35

friend. And the most beautiful part

of the country is of course my

2:19:352:19:42

constituency. Mr Deputy Speaker,

elements of Universal Credit have

2:19:422:19:45

been live in my constituency for

some time, but we moved to the first

2:19:452:19:49

full service last month. In past

debates, the government have said

2:19:492:19:53

that Universal Credit will work for

those requiring support. But if that

2:19:532:19:58

is the case, why has my local

authority, South Lanarkshire

2:19:582:20:02

Council, had to move almost 1.5

million from their revenue account

2:20:022:20:06

into the welfare mitigation fund?

The reason for that is to keep a

2:20:062:20:11

roof over people's heads who are

falling into rent arrears as a

2:20:112:20:14

result of Universal Credit. It was

this government and the previous

2:20:142:20:20

Tory government's right to buy

policy, coupled with a failure to

2:20:202:20:24

replace housing stock which has

decimated social housing provision

2:20:242:20:28

across the UK. That money would be

better spent building council houses

2:20:282:20:32

on supporting people and their

tenancies and improving existing

2:20:322:20:37

housing. I have repeatedly called on

this government to halt the roll-out

2:20:372:20:41

and fix the problems with Universal

Credit. As the minister got a

2:20:412:20:46

hearing problem? Forgive me. If you

are not hearing correctly, let me

2:20:462:20:52

say again that it is necessary for

you to halt the run-up to the

2:20:522:20:56

problems have been ironed out.

Everyone across this House has told

2:20:562:20:59

you that there are problems. Some

members opposite have not yet

2:20:592:21:03

experienced the problems and

therefore are not able to speak with

2:21:032:21:07

a great degree of authority. Let me

assure you, the problems are stark

2:21:072:21:11

and they will fall on your doorsteps

in your constituency offices as they

2:21:112:21:15

have in ours. I have repeatedly

called on the government to halt

2:21:152:21:20

this and fix it, and yet I find

myself today asking once more for

2:21:202:21:24

the same thing. At best, the

government may row back on that,

2:21:242:21:27

reduce the waiting times and improve

the circumstances slightly. But this

2:21:272:21:32

is a flawed policy and if you admit

that today and concede that there

2:21:322:21:37

are problems, why not hold it and

fix it properly? I even invited the

2:21:372:21:42

Prime Minister to visit my

constituency on a number of

2:21:422:21:45

occasions to see first-hand the

damage. But this invitation has been

2:21:452:21:49

ignored. Despite this, the roll-out

has gone ahead and the number of

2:21:492:21:53

people in crisis due to the complex

problems has gone up and up. These

2:21:532:21:59

have included my own constituents,

who have had -- one of whom has had

2:21:592:22:04

to wait 12 weeks for payments. Some

who have received payments without

2:22:042:22:08

the housing cost to which they are

entitled. Some have been forced to

2:22:082:22:12

register as homeless. In my last

debate, I heard the honourable

2:22:122:22:16

member opposite state that Universal

Credit will end the days of private

2:22:162:22:20

landlords discriminating against

social security claimants. He said,

2:22:202:22:23

gone are the days of the signs

outside estate agents reading "No

2:22:232:22:30

DSS need apply". Let me tell all of

the members opposite that that could

2:22:302:22:33

not be further from the truth.

Private landlords, unsure if they

2:22:332:22:38

will be guaranteed the rental

income, are evicting people across

2:22:382:22:41

south Lanarkshire simply because

they are in receipt of Universal

2:22:412:22:44

Credit. The housing list in my area,

already sizeable, has been added to

2:22:442:22:51

by this poorly executed policy.

These failures are unacceptable and

2:22:512:22:54

for the social security system which

is meant to stop people falling

2:22:542:22:58

through the cracks in society, that

is exactly what is ensuring it is

2:22:582:23:02

doing and failing to address these

problems is only pushing people

2:23:022:23:06

further into homelessness and

poverty.

2:23:062:23:11

It's worth looking back at the

initial design of Universal Credit

2:23:112:23:15

and comparing it to where we stand

just now. When the universe that

2:23:152:23:19

credit was introduced in 2013, it

promised to lift 350,000 children

2:23:192:23:26

and 600,000 adults out of poverty.

How is that working out for us? It

2:23:262:23:31

was promised it would increase

entitlements and improve rewards for

2:23:312:23:34

those who earned from work. It would

allow smooth transitions in and out

2:23:342:23:39

of work, as claimants would not have

to claim a different set of benefits

2:23:392:23:42

when starting or ending jobs. Remind

me, how is that working out for us?

2:23:422:23:48

Problems are apparent now which were

not mentioned in 2013. Design flaws

2:23:482:23:53

like this six-week waiting time were

unknown, they are known now is what

2:23:532:23:56

are you going to survive a month and

a half with nothing to live on. The

2:23:562:24:05

right honourable member that

originally was involved in the

2:24:052:24:09

interception and creation of this

policy proudly tell journalists at

2:24:092:24:16

the time that he could live on £53 a

week. I wonder if he could live on

2:24:162:24:21

fresh air for six weeks? Mr Deputy

Speaker, for many of my

2:24:212:24:26

constituents, Universal Credit has

meant falling into debt traps,

2:24:262:24:31

taking out loans, advances through

the Department for Work and

2:24:312:24:34

Pensions, only later to have the

cash removed from them from their

2:24:342:24:37

already meagre payments. This is the

reality of your roll-out of

2:24:372:24:42

Universal Credit. What is this

government going to do about it? But

2:24:422:24:46

even though we have pointed out that

many added problems with your system

2:24:462:24:52

I'm still waiting on the now forced

to debate to hear anything come back

2:24:522:24:55

from this government. And if today,

as that the Government will, you

2:24:552:24:59

make a small advancement, that in

itself is an admission the system is

2:24:592:25:03

not working and it is time to halt

the roll-out.

2:25:032:25:07

Even then, and on many occasions, we

have stood here and told you the

2:25:072:25:12

problems. Your own honourable

members and backbenchers failing in

2:25:122:25:17

their measures to scrutinise it,

failed to accept there are problems

2:25:172:25:21

with this roll out and have ignored

this. Each and every time my

2:25:212:25:24

honourable friend has met with

Citizens Advice he has been informed

2:25:242:25:30

that they themselves are not allowed

to perform the role of advocacy

2:25:302:25:34

because they are not mandated to

make representations on behalf of

2:25:342:25:37

clients. This is a clear attempt to

undermine support available to

2:25:372:25:41

people to ensure they get the

support they receive. And worse than

2:25:412:25:46

that, my own constituent, who has

had to wait 12 weeks before his

2:25:462:25:50

Universal Credit payment came

through, even though his changing

2:25:502:25:53

circumstances well outside his

control, the DWP had not uploaded

2:25:532:25:59

documents he had originally sent to

them for his claim. When these

2:25:592:26:04

documents were finally attached to

his file, some weeks later, it was

2:26:042:26:08

discovered. It was a further six

weeks to be added to his waiting

2:26:082:26:11

time. That is the reality of

Universal Credit. What will the

2:26:112:26:15

Minister do to resolve that issue?

The fact is, I'm asking the Minister

2:26:152:26:20

in this... Does he accept... I will,

he will have his time. Of course the

2:26:202:26:26

Minister will have his time to

answer, he has plenty of time. If

2:26:262:26:30

you admit today there are problems

with the system... I will. Universal

2:26:302:26:36

Credit is not fit for purpose,

people are suffering and it is time

2:26:362:26:39

for the Minister, I urge the

Minister to hold the roll-out and

2:26:392:26:42

fix the problems.

Thank you. Can I

start by congratulating the member

2:26:422:26:51

for making his maiden speech. He has

shown his commitment to his

2:26:512:26:55

constituency and I also thought it

was very kind of the new member to

2:26:552:27:01

praise his predecessor, and I also

extend my good wishes to her.

2:27:012:27:10

There have been some outstanding

contributions to what has been,

2:27:102:27:13

shall we say, a fiery debate. I

would like to first of all

2:27:132:27:19

congratulate my right honourable

friend, the chairman of work and

2:27:192:27:23

pensions select committee, first of

all this is cheering today's debate

2:27:232:27:26

but also on the select committee's

very timely report around the week

2:27:262:27:31

wait for Universal Credit. I would

also like to congratulate my

2:27:312:27:36

honourable friend, the member for

Stratford, an excellent speech. From

2:27:362:27:43

Bishop Auckland, from North West

Durham, from High Peak, Bermondsey

2:27:432:27:48

in Southwark, and members from

Glasgow South West and Lanark and

2:27:482:27:56

East Hamilton. And also the member

for Stirling. A sensitive and

2:27:562:28:09

analytical approach to the report on

what needed to happen in a very

2:28:092:28:12

measured way. And of course, the

member for South Cambridgeshire, who

2:28:122:28:17

was characteristically... She's not

in her place at the moment they gave

2:28:172:28:20

a characteristically bold speech.

Mr Deputy Speaker, this is the third

2:28:202:28:25

debate we have had an Universal

Credit in the last month. Today, as

2:28:252:28:29

with the previous two debate, the

Government has been called upon to

2:28:292:28:33

reduce a six-week waiting period

applicants face. As we have heard,

2:28:332:28:39

this is believed to be one of the

primary drivers of the rising debt

2:28:392:28:43

and arrears we are now seeing. 49%

of families who are in arrears and

2:28:432:28:48

the Universal Credit state that

their arrears started after they

2:28:482:28:51

made that claim, because the waiting

times to receive payments, support

2:28:512:28:57

being delayed. Or administrative

errors. On Monday, the chairman of

2:28:572:29:02

the backbench business committee to

this house social housing providers

2:29:022:29:08

across the North of England are

finding more and more of their

2:29:082:29:13

tenants are going into rent arrears.

The total debt of 10,500 claimants.

2:29:132:29:24

In Greater Manchester, where

Universal Credit was first piloted,

2:29:242:29:26

the average arrears for these

tenants is £824, compared with £451

2:29:262:29:36

for non-UC tenants. In London it's

even worse, and we've heard from

2:29:362:29:41

councils such as Southwark, who

estimate an average arrears of £1700

2:29:412:29:47

per UC ten. What about the private

rented sector? We have heard some of

2:29:472:29:53

the real issues that have been faced

about pre-emptive strikes regarding

2:29:532:29:58

tenancy agreements. I have a

landlord who contacted me concerned

2:29:582:30:03

about his tenants who are thousands

of pounds in rent arrears and they

2:30:032:30:07

never had been in previous arrears.

So, a reduction to the six-week wait

2:30:072:30:14

would be a good start. I look

forward to the Minister's response

2:30:142:30:18

about that. I was disappointed, I

have to say, as I think the Speaker

2:30:182:30:22

was, when we heard certain

revelations in the media yesterday,

2:30:222:30:28

and I do hope that he will be able

to enlighten asked as to whether

2:30:282:30:31

this is going, the reduction in the

weight is one more two weeks. As I

2:30:312:30:38

said, reducing the six-week waiting

time is only a start, it does not

2:30:382:30:42

address the significant design

issues that we have seen since the

2:30:422:30:46

start. For example, the monthly

payment being made in arrears,

2:30:462:30:51

following a monthly assessment

period, where most people in receipt

2:30:512:30:54

of UC are paid fortnightly or

monthly. The payment being made to

2:30:542:30:58

the main owner of the household,

predominantly men, rent being paid

2:30:582:31:02

to the claimant rather than the

landlord, self-employed people being

2:31:022:31:06

subject to the punitive minimum

income floor, which fails to reflect

2:31:062:31:09

the reality of the peaks and troughs

in their working hours. The

2:31:092:31:14

real-time information flaws, the

right honourable member for West Ham

2:31:142:31:17

as mentioned in the past, and for

which there is no time limit to

2:31:172:31:22

disputes leading to more delays in

payments. And, of course, in terms

2:31:222:31:26

of in work conditionality, meaning 1

million working people visiting

2:31:262:31:33

Jobcentres, while much of the Job

Centre plus estate is being closed

2:31:332:31:37

and facing financial sanctions if

they fail to work the hours the job

2:31:372:31:41

coach Dean 's famous.

In addition, reducing the waiting

2:31:412:31:44

time doesn't tackle the chronic

issues with implementation and

2:31:442:31:48

functionality. A pregnant woman got

in touch with me when her change in

2:31:482:31:54

circumstances meant she had to apply

for Universal Credit when her Jay

2:31:542:32:00

O'Shea claim is closed. She couldn't

apply online was given a number to

2:32:002:32:04

call and then another one and then

another one and was finally referred

2:32:042:32:07

back to the original number. To say

training is needed is an

2:32:072:32:10

understatement. My honourable friend

mentioned yesterday at Prime

2:32:102:32:14

Minister's Questions the ridiculous

position of one of their

2:32:142:32:18

constituents who didn't have photo

ID and had to have identification

2:32:182:32:23

verified by their doctor instead.

Rather than accepting the

2:32:232:32:30

identification from the legacy

benefits they had previously been

2:32:302:32:32

on. The issues with Ross claims and

so on and on. The recent Social

2:32:322:32:37

Security advisory committee report

on in work progression highlights

2:32:372:32:41

these issues in its section on

getting delivery right. There is no

2:32:412:32:44

getting away from the fact that the

system is complex and is more than

2:32:442:32:48

struggling to cope, which isn't

helped by the simultaneous closure

2:32:482:32:53

of one in ten Jobcentre pluss. But

it must be recognised, the objective

2:32:532:32:59

for simplicity should be for ease

and access, of access and navigation

2:32:592:33:04

of the system by claimants. This is

still not happening and must be

2:33:042:33:07

addressed.

I'm pleased that the Government

2:33:072:33:12

exceeded the need for Freedom phone

numbers and I would be grateful as

2:33:122:33:15

to when those will actually be up

and running. -- for free phone

2:33:152:33:20

numbers. But we know much more is

needed. And then there are the cuts

2:33:202:33:25

that were wielded to Universal

Credit in the 2015 summer budget. As

2:33:252:33:31

the Institute for Fiscal Studies

said at the time, it means that the

2:33:312:33:34

promise that work would always pay a

primary objective of Universal

2:33:342:33:40

Credit, has been lost. So just to

remind us of what these cuts were,

2:33:402:33:44

cuts to work around this, for

example meaning a couple with two

2:33:442:33:48

children claiming housing costs

would have 180, £192 a month, down

2:33:482:33:57

from £222 a month. Cuts to nearly 1

million families with more than two

2:33:572:34:02

children, because of the two child

limit. Cuts to disabled people, when

2:34:022:34:08

they transferred onto UC's Limited

capacity to work. And the freeze in

2:34:082:34:13

the operating of Universal Credit to

take into account of inflation.

2:34:132:34:20

These cuts will see 3 million

families as much as £2600 a year

2:34:202:34:25

worse off. For some is even worse.

For example, in real a single parent

2:34:252:34:32

with two children working as a

full-time teacher will be £3700 a

2:34:322:34:38

year worse off. The cumulative

effect of these cuts to UC will see

2:34:382:34:41

more working age people and their

children pushed into poverty. The

2:34:412:34:45

child poverty action group has

estimated by 2022 nearly an

2:34:452:34:49

additional 1 million children will

be pushed into poverty, 300,000 of

2:34:492:34:54

those under the age of five and they

will be accompanied by 900,000

2:34:542:34:57

adults. So while reducing the

waiting period is a start, it will

2:34:572:35:01

not be sufficient to stop rising

debt, arrears and worse. Labour has

2:35:012:35:07

called for UC to be paused last is

fixed. Madam Deputy Speaker, as I

2:35:072:35:12

have said before, in addition to

reducing the six-week wait we won

2:35:122:35:18

all claimants to be able to decide

if they want fortnightly or monthly

2:35:182:35:21

payments, if they want payment split

in the household and if they want

2:35:212:35:25

their housing payment to be paid

directly to the landlord.

2:35:252:35:29

Fundamentally, we want investment in

Universal Credit to ensure work does

2:35:292:35:32

always pay and that children and

young people are not being pushed

2:35:322:35:35

into poverty, left destitute or

worse.

2:35:352:35:39

Madam Deputy Speaker, nearly a

million people set to move on to

2:35:392:35:41

Universal Credit over the winter,

the budget gives the Government an

2:35:412:35:45

opportunity to deliver on their

promise to make this country work

2:35:452:35:48

for everyone. I hope they take it.

Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

2:35:482:35:58

would like to congratulate the right

honourable gentleman from Birkenhead

2:35:582:36:02

for securing this important debate

today and also thank members from

2:36:022:36:06

across the House from what I think

has been a good and constructive

2:36:062:36:08

debate. Unfortunately, my time is

now extremely short but I will try

2:36:082:36:12

and respond to as much as I can.

I particularly wanted to mention the

2:36:122:36:17

absolutely outstanding speech from

our honourable friend from Banff and

2:36:172:36:21

Buchan in what was his maiden

speech. He paid tribute to his

2:36:212:36:27

predecessor and spoke about how he

was focused on securing the best

2:36:272:36:29

Brexit and how important that is the

business in his constituency,

2:36:292:36:35

particular run fishing and farming

and talked about some of the other

2:36:352:36:38

opportunities for the future around

oil and gas and tourism. He painted

2:36:382:36:42

very colourful picture of his

constituency for all, and what a

2:36:422:36:45

wonderful place it would be to live.

Clearly he is going to be a great

2:36:452:36:49

asset to this house and to our

democracy. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

2:36:492:36:53

must say that the accents from his

particular part of Scotland are

2:36:532:36:58

always rich and characterful but

they sound so much better when come

2:36:582:37:00

from this direction. Universal

Credit has been the subject of a

2:37:002:37:10

number of debates over recent weeks

but it remains important not to lose

2:37:102:37:14

sight of why this vital reform is

needed and the key principles behind

2:37:142:37:16

it. Which my honourable friend from

Brentford and longer -- Brentwood

2:37:162:37:23

and longer outlined. If you do a

minimum amount of work, you would

2:37:232:37:28

have to go through the upheaval of

changing to a different benefit

2:37:282:37:31

system. For some people on

jobseeker's allowance, that can

2:37:312:37:34

deter them from taking on seasonal

work, for example, or a trial

2:37:342:37:38

position. The obstacles to starting

work are stronger for people with

2:37:382:37:45

disabilities on EFA. In EFA you can

only do so-called committed work of

2:37:452:37:49

up to £120 a week. In Universal

Credit there is no permitted work

2:37:492:37:52

because work is permitted. You don't

have to make a choice between

2:37:522:37:57

starting a career and getting that

support through the benefit system.

2:37:572:38:05

As my honourable friend from Torbay

said, Universal Credit simplify the

2:38:052:38:09

system permits six benefits into

one, asking people to deal with one

2:38:092:38:13

part of government instead of three.

Paid monthly in arrears, like most

2:38:132:38:17

jobs these days. Allowing claimants

to structure expenditure about a

2:38:172:38:22

monthly fixed payments. My

honourable friend from mid Dorset

2:38:222:38:26

asked me if I would outline how many

people these days are paid

2:38:262:38:31

fortnightly, the answer is around 3%

of people. The majority paid

2:38:312:38:35

monthly. A sizeable minority paid

four weekly. Still a lot of people

2:38:352:38:41

paid weekly. 70% of people paid

monthly or four weekly. The

2:38:412:38:50

month-long assessment period start

straightaway transferring from

2:38:502:38:53

another benefit. And members of

certain vulnerable groups. For newly

2:38:532:38:57

unemployed people, eligibility over

the assessment period starts seven

2:38:572:39:01

days later. These waiting days

reflect the principal benefit

2:39:012:39:06

support is not intended to cover

very short periods of unemployment.

2:39:062:39:10

Of course they exist in Allowance as

well. The monthly in arrears payment

2:39:102:39:16

cycle is fundamental to the design

of Universal Credit. It means your

2:39:162:39:21

benefit payment each month can

reflect on what you learned in that

2:39:212:39:24

month, taking into account all the

different patterns we have been

2:39:242:39:27

through. In which different people

are paid. Beyond the month-long

2:39:272:39:33

assessment period, there is a

further time of up to a week. Final

2:39:332:39:38

calculation, verification and making

the actual payments. All DWP payment

2:39:382:39:43

benefits, including Universal Credit

are made using the BACS system.

2:39:432:39:52

Which takes three days to process. A

person's first due date will be

2:39:522:39:59

seven days after their first

assessment. Subsequent play dates

2:39:592:40:02

will be on the same date each month

thereafter. The payday falls in the

2:40:022:40:11

we can come if we brought forward to

the nearest working day. Three days

2:40:162:40:20

for calculation and BACS processing,

four days to allow for the fact your

2:40:202:40:27

payment due date might come on

Saturday, Sunday or bank holiday, to

2:40:272:40:31

then allow us to pay the claim ahead

of that due date. If you are leaving

2:40:312:40:37

a job, you will of course normally

have your final pay packet and some

2:40:372:40:43

will have redundancy pay. If you are

moving on to Universal Credit from

2:40:432:40:45

another benefit from a paid

fortnightly in arrears, you will of

2:40:452:40:51

course have your final payment from

that benefit. We do realise of

2:40:512:40:57

course, that different people's

circumstances vary, and advances are

2:40:572:41:00

therefore available. My honourable

friends from Redditch and West

2:41:002:41:05

Aberdeen is share reminded us, that

may one meagre five or six weeks

2:41:052:41:10

without money. You can get an

advance payment of up to half your

2:41:102:41:14

indicative award regrouped over six

months, or as we are reminded in

2:41:142:41:19

some cases, it can be longer.

Advances are available, paid within

2:41:192:41:23

five working days, and in emergency

can be paid on that same day. These

2:41:232:41:29

advances are not like low-income in

the sense they are not interest

2:41:292:41:35

payable, and they're not like wage

advance, they do not get taken fully

2:41:352:41:38

to your first wage packet. I must

stress, and it is worth repeating,

2:41:382:41:44

the Universal Credit payment cycle

is monthly, with the payments made

2:41:442:41:47

on the same day each month, unless

that date falls on a Saturday,

2:41:472:41:51

Sunday or bank holiday, in which

case the payment would be advanced

2:41:512:41:55

to the nearest working day. This

monthly assessment is a much better

2:41:552:42:00

system than tax credits. Which works

on estimates, and often involves big

2:42:002:42:08

adjustments at the end of the year.

Including requiring people to pay

2:42:082:42:12

back sometimes large sums which have

already been paid to them. And that

2:42:122:42:17

they may have already spent, as my

honourable friend for Rochester and

2:42:172:42:26

Strood out as advice. It removes the

need to slip in that way, from one

2:42:262:42:31

benefit to another. And then back

again. Three separate peer-reviewed

2:42:312:42:36

studies showed people are more

likely to be work after six months

2:42:362:42:39

if they are on Universal Credit,

matched samples comparing people

2:42:392:42:48

similar in respect, apart from the

benefits they were wrong. My

2:42:482:42:51

honourable friend from Stirling

asked about direct payment of rent.

2:42:512:42:54

It was since the then Labour's

reforms that people in the private

2:42:542:43:03

rented sector handle their own rent.

Universal Credit extends that to

2:43:032:43:08

people renting from cancel Housing

Association. We can pay direct. A

2:43:082:43:16

sizeable amount of people in

Universal Credit have had that

2:43:162:43:18

arrangement set up. We are setting

up processes to make rent payment

2:43:182:43:23

direct where appropriate. Through

the trust and Partner status and

2:43:232:43:26

also with private renters. We are

also able, as the honourable lady

2:43:262:43:31

was just asking, able to make

payments more frequently than

2:43:312:43:35

monthly, fortnightly, and indeed

weekly when that is necessary. We

2:43:352:43:38

can split payments between members

of a couple. Universal Credit is a

2:43:382:43:43

vital reform are changing how we

support people out of work and in

2:43:432:43:47

work, how we help them progress from

one into the other. It is a lot of

2:43:472:43:54

change. New ways of working with

partners. That brings challenges. We

2:43:542:43:59

will continue that, Mr Speaker, to

work with claimants, stakeholders,

2:43:592:44:04

partners, with honourable and write

honourable

2:44:042:44:13

-- right honourable friends. It is

being introduced at a measured pace,

2:44:192:44:26

over nine years, in between last

month in January, it will go from

2:44:262:44:31

covering 8% of the benefits claiming

population up to 10%. Gradual,

2:44:312:44:36

careful approach, with planned

pauses, to learn and respond to

2:44:362:44:39

issues as they arrive. It means we

can continually adjust and evolve

2:44:392:44:44

appropriately. It is the biggest

monetisation of the welfare state in

2:44:442:44:47

more than a generation. Already

Universal Credit is transforming

2:44:472:44:51

lives, and we are determined to see

this reform.

Madam Deputy Speaker,

2:44:512:45:00

everybody that has spoken today from

either side, both sides of the House

2:45:002:45:03

have called on the government to

move. And to change their approach.

2:45:032:45:08

Instead of inviting us to attend to

our job centres, I will be writing

2:45:082:45:14

to the Secretary of State and the

Minister of State inviting him to

2:45:142:45:19

come with us to the six worst

blackspots, how Universal Credit is

2:45:192:45:27

affecting people's lives, and to do

so before the budget.

The question

2:45:272:45:34

is as on the order paper. As many as

are of the opinion, say "aye". To

2:45:342:45:38

the contrary, "no".

2:45:382:45:49

The ayes have it. Point of order, Mr

Field.

I'm wishing to seek your

2:45:492:45:54

advice. This recommendation to

McGovern has been passed

2:45:542:45:56

unanimously. How might I ask the

Secretary of State to come before

2:45:562:46:02

the House on Monday and respond to

this unanimous recommendation we

2:46:022:46:06

have made, to begin the reform of

Universal Credit, so that some of

2:46:062:46:11

our constituents might have slightly

better Christmases than they might

2:46:112:46:15

otherwise get.

I thank the

honourable gentleman for his point.

2:46:152:46:20

I understand why he wishes the

Secretary of State to come to the

2:46:202:46:26

House, but the Minister has just

been before the House addressing

2:46:262:46:30

those very points. I'm quite sure

the Secretary of State will know to

2:46:302:46:37

what has been said in the House this

afternoon, and note the request from

2:46:372:46:41

the honourable gentleman.

Further to

the point of order. The Minister of

2:46:412:46:46

State, bless him, seriously, he's an

incredibly good guy when made his

2:46:462:46:57

speech before we had made a

collective decision. We are a mini

2:46:572:47:00

position. The whole House has

unanimously asked the government to

2:47:002:47:04

move. That is what I want is secular

state to address on Monday.

I thank

2:47:042:47:10

the honourable gentleman for making

his point. He knows it is not a

2:47:102:47:13

matter for me, and the Minister is,

as the honourable gentleman pointed

2:47:132:47:18

out, sitting at the dispatch box.

I'm quite sure he and the Secretary

2:47:182:47:22

of State will pay attention to the

point that the honourable gentleman,

2:47:222:47:26

and indeed, all honorary members

have made this afternoon. We now

2:47:262:47:34

come to the backbench debate on

defence aerospace industry strategy.

2:47:342:47:43

Come on, everybody leaving lead

quickly. Not fair, there is to very

2:47:432:47:50

little time left.

I'd venture to me

that this House need to consider

2:47:502:47:55

them need for a defence aerospace

industrial strategy. I must quickly

2:47:552:48:00

thank the backbench committee for

allocating this time in the House.

2:48:002:48:06

Can I thank my honourable friend the

honourable member from Whitney for

2:48:062:48:12

co-sponsoring this debate? Madam

Deputy Speaker, I'm sure you'll

2:48:122:48:14

agree the calibre members here on a

Thursday afternoon is a testament to

2:48:142:48:19

the importance this House places on

our ministry and having the right

2:48:192:48:27

kit. Our debate on the matter is

timely. This month we mark the 100th

2:48:272:48:33

anniversary of the creation of the

RAF. He remains fitting we should

2:48:332:48:37

recognise the fundamental role that

our domestic defence aerospace

2:48:372:48:43

sector has played in maintaining our

country aerial supremacy for

2:48:432:48:45

generations. Just last weekend, all

of us here today, along with

2:48:452:48:50

millions of British citizens

gathered across the country to

2:48:502:48:53

commemorate the courage and the

sacrifice of those men and women who

2:48:532:48:57

have served in our Armed Forces, to

protect our country. What we

2:48:572:49:02

remember those who have fallen, we

must honour those currently in

2:49:022:49:06

uniform. Their dedication, skill and

bravery is demonstrated every day,

2:49:062:49:12

in every corner of the world. These

efforts are exemplified by almost

2:49:122:49:17

1350 service personnel currently

supporting operation Shader. RAF

2:49:172:49:25

tornadoes and typhoons partook in

operations against Daesh. Destroying

2:49:252:49:33

Daesh stockpiles, and armoured truck

bombs. Against this most barbaric

2:49:332:49:42

and ideological opponent, British

support has a vital role striking

2:49:422:49:47

Daesh 184 times in Iraq, 262 times

in Syria. The men and women of our

2:49:472:49:53

RAF, and our entire Armed Forces

serve the coverage and distinction.

2:49:532:49:57

But they do not operate in

isolation. They require the

2:49:572:50:01

platforms and weapons do their job.

And without collateral damage as is

2:50:012:50:07

possible. The military success

depends on the technology and the

2:50:072:50:10

weaponry we can bring to bear.

Crucially for this debate, on the

2:50:102:50:15

wider defence family. Which

develops, designs, and manufactures,

2:50:152:50:20

and maintains it. I am delighted

that members of the defence

2:50:202:50:25

aerospace industry from the GMB,

from Brough are here today. The men

2:50:252:50:38

and women who develop these

industries, note that the lives of

2:50:382:50:42

many women that serve depend on

them. When our Armed Forces are

2:50:422:50:51

deployed, the brave service

personnel need to have what they

2:50:512:50:53

need and to get the job done, to

keep us safe. They recognise their

2:50:532:50:57

role in defending our country, the

question today, do we? Importantly,

2:50:572:51:02

do the government? Madam Debbie de

Speaker, I maintain it is the

2:51:022:51:07

defence family and the inventors,

engineers, tradesmen and

2:51:072:51:12

technicians, fitters and

fabricators, who have built Britain

2:51:122:51:16

but I defence industry into a world

leader, sustaining our sovereign

2:51:162:51:21

capability in a world where such

strength has never been more vital.

2:51:212:51:24

It is that very defence family which

I fear is being sold short by the

2:51:242:51:28

government. Especially in the

aerospace sector. Unless we address

2:51:282:51:32

this now. The situation will become

even more challenging in a

2:51:322:51:36

post-Brexit world. Simply put, in

order to insure our sovereignty

2:51:362:51:41

debility post-Brexit, we need to

develop a defence aerospace

2:51:412:51:45

industrial strategy now, to protect

our domestic skills mix. The

2:51:452:51:51

government have recognised this need

in our maritime defence sector with

2:51:512:51:54

a national ship building strategy.

All we're asking for today is that

2:51:542:51:58

the same generosity be applied to

the defence aerospace sector, to

2:51:582:52:02

give the sector and the workforce

some stability for the next

2:52:022:52:07

generation. Madam Deputy Speaker,

this is not beyond us. It is

2:52:072:52:12

industry has developed iconic

aircraft as the Cork, the Harrier,

2:52:122:52:17

the Tornado and Typhoon. Before we

touch on our helicopters.

2:52:172:52:24

We have earned our place as a global

leader in the manufacture of

2:52:242:52:30

aircraft but it is by contention the

development of a long-term strategy

2:52:302:52:33

for our defence and aerospace

industry would do far more than

2:52:332:52:36

reassure an individual sector. It

would provide lasting benefits to

2:52:362:52:41

our economy, retain our valuable

skills base, guarantee our sovereign

2:52:412:52:45

military capability and secure our

position on the global stage. I will

2:52:452:52:49

happily give away.

I am grateful to

have a giving way. She has mentioned

2:52:492:52:53

tornado twice in her speech and a

very valuable role that it has

2:52:532:52:58

played. It still remains a very

potent combat aircraft, even today.

2:52:582:53:04

Which agree with me we have the

skills available in British

2:53:042:53:09

industry, such that when they

retired from service in 2019, we

2:53:092:53:14

should keep some as a war reserve

and industry have the capability to

2:53:142:53:19

support that? Which agree with that

suggestion?

Thank you very much. I

2:53:192:53:24

agree with the gentleman. I know

this is something he has been

2:53:242:53:29

raising repeatedly in recent months.

We have to decide what reserves we

2:53:292:53:33

actually need, but that is no

replacement for the development of

2:53:332:53:36

our future capabilities.

Firstly, on our economy. Our defence

2:53:362:53:41

aerospace sector makes an enormous

contribution. It is the core part of

2:53:412:53:44

our wider defence industry which

directly employs over 142,000

2:53:442:53:51

people, with a further 116,000

indirectly employed in the supply

2:53:512:53:56

chain. In 2016, BEA Systems -- BAE

Systems contributed 11.1 billion of

2:53:562:54:03

gross value added to the UK,

equivalent to 0.6% of our entire

2:54:032:54:09

economic output. There is further

additional value to ensuring those

2:54:092:54:13

defence jobs stay in the UK. For

every £1 the Government spend on the

2:54:132:54:18

defence contract when the good or

service is generated in the UK, the

2:54:182:54:24

Treasury receives 37p back in

revenue. As well as the new platform

2:54:242:54:29

or system we have procured. It is

self-evident a strong defence

2:54:292:54:37

industry is an indicator to a strong

economy. Our defence aerospace

2:54:372:54:41

industry supports thousands of well

paid and highly skilled jobs, the

2:54:412:54:44

majority of which are outside of the

south-east. As well as boosting our

2:54:442:54:48

economy through exports of

world-class products. In fact, our

2:54:482:54:55

defence aerospace sector accounts

for 88% of all defence exports, an

2:54:552:55:02

incredibly important aspect of our

economy, especially as we look to

2:55:022:55:05

leave the European Union force but

not least that the impact on our

2:55:052:55:08

future balance of payments. But

there are challenges in the sector

2:55:082:55:13

which fundamentally relate to two

factors. One is the fact export

2:55:132:55:17

sales are typically dependent on the

use of future platforms by Rob Aria.

2:55:172:55:21

The British brand and RAF stamp of

approval means a huge amount for

2:55:212:55:28

others. When buying British is key

for the global success of the

2:55:282:55:32

sector, we need to pay attention.

The second significant challenges

2:55:322:55:36

the extended lead in times and

development processes which

2:55:362:55:40

characterise the industry. This

requires a long-term strategy, not a

2:55:402:55:46

short-term fix, to ensure a steady

drumbeat of orders and constant RND

2:55:462:55:52

domain competence -- maintain

confidence in the industry. We have

2:55:522:55:57

seen recently what happens when that

certainty is missing from the

2:55:572:55:59

market. With Bae recently announcing

up to 2000 redundancies owing to a

2:55:592:56:05

gap in their order books, those job

losses are not just a blow for those

2:56:052:56:09

workers and their families, but

could also result in a loss of skill

2:56:092:56:13

and expertise that could set us back

a generation. I believe that these

2:56:132:56:17

jobs could potentially be protected

in the short term if the Government

2:56:172:56:20

could commit to bringing forward the

order for the new Hawk aircraft of

2:56:202:56:24

the Red Arrows and securing the next

wave of export contracts but that

2:56:242:56:28

aircraft. I will give way that

point.

I thank you for giving way.

2:56:282:56:33

The Hawk aircraft is incredibly

important to my constituents, many

2:56:332:56:38

work at BAE Systems in broth. Is it

not the case that as well as the

2:56:382:56:42

work of the Government is doing,

bringing forward the Red Arrows

2:56:422:56:49

replacement aircraft could fill some

of the gap in the order book but

2:56:492:56:52

also could be done in such a way as

to support the development of new

2:56:522:56:57

orders, so that what is billed now

doesn't necessarily have to be part

2:56:572:57:01

of the replacement fleet but we

could use that as the short gap?

2:57:012:57:05

I completely agree with the

honourable gentleman. Let's be

2:57:052:57:08

clear, this is a brand-new aircraft

and our red arrows should be selling

2:57:082:57:12

it to the world with their own skill

set. I will give way.

2:57:122:57:21

Clearly the orders at the moment are

hinge ring on the Qatari order. If

2:57:212:57:27

that came forward and the Red

Arrows's replacement for not brought

2:57:272:57:33

forward by the Government we could

have a situation in this country

2:57:332:57:38

where we have a problem.

I completely agree with the

2:57:382:57:42

honourable gentleman. The reality is

this is about our sovereign skills

2:57:422:57:45

mix and if we can actually develop

future training aircraft as we move

2:57:452:57:52

forward. The other part of this is

it's about people's lives and the

2:57:522:57:56

people that are here today, it's

about what jobs they have going

2:57:562:57:59

forward as well. This is a key

moment for the Government to act. I

2:57:592:58:02

will give way.

Would she agreed, if that sovereign

2:58:022:58:09

capability goes, that means either

the Red Arrows goes altogether or

2:58:092:58:12

the future of the Red Arrows will

either be flying Italian, French or

2:58:122:58:16

possibly South Korean aircraft?

Perish the thought that they should

2:58:162:58:23

be flagged anything other than

British built planes. I think one of

2:58:232:58:27

the issues here, and let's be clear,

the date 2030 is not something

2:58:272:58:32

anyone recognised until recent weeks

as a date for renewal for the Hawks,

2:58:322:58:37

and for me, and I say this as a

young member of this house,

2:58:372:58:40

obviously! Thank you... The

youngest, or the newest Hawk

2:58:402:58:49

aircraft used by the Red Arrows is

six months older than me. This is

2:58:492:58:53

not showing off their best and

brightest of our potential

2:58:532:58:56

capability right now. As long as you

say how you young I am.

2:58:562:59:02

We are both very young members!

There is not quite so much agreement

2:59:022:59:06

in my case, it would appear. On the

issue of the age of the aircraft, is

2:59:062:59:11

it not also the case there have been

some really troubling reports about

2:59:112:59:14

just how few of our current red

arrows aircraft are actually able to

2:59:142:59:20

fly at any one time, which is where

the estate of 2030 seems somewhat

2:59:202:59:26

strange to many people intimately

involved in that particular...

2:59:262:59:33

Having had the privilege of sitting

in red on last year, I agree. It is

2:59:332:59:37

a showcase and joys of the RAF. For

us not to be investing in the 100th

2:59:372:59:43

anniversary of the RAF seems

short-sighted to me. I'm not in

2:59:432:59:45

favour of having a new aircraft for

the sake of it. But it is our most

2:59:452:59:50

impressive and important defence

engagement all. One of the

2:59:502:59:53

priorities of the RAF. The Red

Arrows can show the best of our new

2:59:532:59:57

technologies on a global stage we

should be encouraging them to do so.

2:59:573:00:05

But I acknowledge this would be a

sticking plaster and the long-term

3:00:053:00:07

security of these sites and others

can only be guaranteed by the

3:00:073:00:10

development of a clear and genuine

industrial strategy for the future

3:00:103:00:12

of UK defence. I will give way.

I recall when I was a young Major,

3:00:123:00:21

I'm still young, as the honourable

lady would agree! In 1984, we were

3:00:213:00:30

talking about the requirement for a

defence aerospace industrial

3:00:303:00:36

strategy. We changed the name

sometimes, but we keep talking about

3:00:363:00:41

it, and the truth of the matter is,

every time there is a defence

3:00:413:00:47

review, the aerospace industrial

strategy goes into the bin. I'm

3:00:473:00:50

afraid that's the reality of it. We

all want a defence aerospace

3:00:503:00:55

industrial strategy, but it keeps

getting scrapped, like so many of

3:00:553:01:00

our aircraft do.

I think this is a perfect

3:01:003:01:05

opportunity for the Government to

ensure there is a real opportunity

3:01:053:01:08

now going forward, so that we can

actually have an industrial

3:01:083:01:12

strategy, put their money where

their mouth is and move us forward.

3:01:123:01:16

Madam Deputy Speaker, my second

point relates to the retention of

3:01:163:01:20

our skills base. Our defence

aerospace industrial industry

3:01:203:01:25

operates at the cutting edge of

modern technology. This is highly

3:01:253:01:29

skilled, highly qualified workforce

and their talents at a national

3:01:293:01:32

resource that needs to be nurtured

as well as retained. It is this very

3:01:323:01:37

expertise which enabled us to play a

major role in developing the F 35

3:01:373:01:42

alongside a US partners, a project

which was secured by our unique

3:01:423:01:46

knowledge through the design of the

Harrier jump jet. But when a future

3:01:463:01:51

projects are uncertain, these jobs

are put at risk, and if they go,

3:01:513:01:55

those skills will go with them. Once

the capability to develop and

3:01:553:01:59

produce complex systems in any field

has been lost, it can be incredibly

3:01:593:02:04

difficult and time-consuming to

rebuild. One only has to look at the

3:02:043:02:08

experience of the astute programme

to see the danger. Delays in our

3:02:083:02:12

procurement of the new submarine

programme has led to significant

3:02:123:02:17

redundancies on very specific

skills, which meant that

3:02:173:02:20

embarrassingly when we decided to

eventually upgrade our submarine

3:02:203:02:24

capability, we had to go cap in hand

an American firm to help us

3:02:243:02:29

rediscover an upscale the skills we

had lost.

3:02:293:02:36

I thank my honourable friend for

giving way to stop she is right to

3:02:363:02:39

mention the problem in Barrow forced

of course, I'm sure she will agree,

3:02:393:02:44

not only was reskilling the problem

but the massive extra cost to the

3:02:443:02:51

taxpayer from that. In a programme

web then there was only one

3:02:513:02:56

supplier. In aerospace we are

talking about potentially losing out

3:02:563:03:00

to competitors because other people

make aeroplanes, we are the only

3:03:003:03:02

ones who make submarines.

The honourable member speaks with

3:03:023:03:08

authority about his constituents and

their work in Barrow. I will not be

3:03:083:03:11

taking any more interventions

because I'm running out of time.

3:03:113:03:14

This was not just a national

embarrassment. The erosion of

3:03:143:03:17

capability can have serious and long

lasting consequences for our

3:03:173:03:22

sovereign military capability. Let's

not repeat previous mistakes. Let's

3:03:223:03:26

develop a conference of industrial

strategy for our defence aerospace

3:03:263:03:30

sector to ensure a steady drumbeat

of orders and maximise the benefits

3:03:303:03:35

of a highly successful export

market.

3:03:353:03:37

Central to that strategy must be a

forward-thinking plan that already

3:03:373:03:42

starts to consider what a post-F 35

future might look like. We need a

3:03:423:03:48

commitment to a development of a six

combat fighter to ensure we have a

3:03:483:03:51

British option for our next

multirole defence asset. Madam

3:03:513:03:57

Deputy Speaker, and sure it won't

surprise you to know the development

3:03:573:04:01

of the typhoon on the F 35 projects

took two decades from concept stage

3:04:013:04:07

to mass production. We need to

commit now to developing this new

3:04:073:04:10

platform, with a view to the

finished product entering service in

3:04:103:04:15

the 20 30s, when I was still be a

young member. We should also use

3:04:153:04:18

that project as an opportunity for a

realignment, away from a US-led

3:04:183:04:23

development process and turn towards

our partners in Europe. The F 35 is

3:04:233:04:29

an exemplary piece of kit and we

should be proud of our involvement

3:04:293:04:33

in its development, but if we are to

maximise the benefits of our

3:04:333:04:37

domestic defence aerospace industry,

we need to play a lead role in the

3:04:373:04:41

development and construction of the

six generation fighter and not

3:04:413:04:44

operate in the long shadow of the US

military industrial complex.

3:04:443:04:51

Finally, a defence aerospace

industrial strategy sends a message

3:04:513:04:53

to the world that we are serious

future defence. Our long-term

3:04:533:04:59

security and that of our allies and

provides us with opportunities to

3:04:593:05:03

build lasting relationships with

international partners. It would

3:05:033:05:06

also demonstrate that the UK may be

leaving the European Union but we

3:05:063:05:10

aren't leaving the world and we are

open for business. When a nation

3:05:103:05:16

develops an over reliance on foreign

imports for its defence capabilities

3:05:163:05:19

it does not just impact on jobs and

industries, it also sends a signal

3:05:193:05:22

to the world about their lack of

confidence in their own industry and

3:05:223:05:27

society. Put simply, great nations

become great by acting as though

3:05:273:05:31

they are. If we put our faith and

our active long-term support into

3:05:313:05:37

our domestic defence aerospace

industry, it will show the world

3:05:373:05:39

that we are leaders in the field and

that we intend to keep it that way.

3:05:393:05:44

Madam Deputy

3:05:443:05:54

Speaker, the time is right for the

development of this strategy.

3:05:543:05:56

Industry is willing, the military

are wanting, what we need now is

3:05:563:05:59

government action. I'd move the

debate. The question is this house

3:05:593:06:01

considers aerospace defence

strategy. Doctor Lewis.

3:06:013:06:04

In the run-up to this debate so ably

introduced by the honourable lady

3:06:043:06:09

for Stoke-on-Trent North, a star of

the defence committee it must be

3:06:093:06:14

said, I and other members of the

committee were almost inundated with

3:06:143:06:20

communications from defence

companies wanting to showcase how

3:06:203:06:22

much they do for industry in this

country. Boeing UK wanted to draw

3:06:223:06:31

attention to their 18,700 workers in

the UK. MBTA, the missile

3:06:313:06:37

specialists, wanted to draw

attention to the billion pounds

3:06:373:06:42

worth of annual sales that they

generate. But BAE Systems they are a

3:06:423:06:49

rather special position. They have

over 83,000 employees in 40

3:06:493:06:56

countries. They are a global leader,

as they describe themselves, in

3:06:563:07:02

making and supporting combat

aircraft, and they state... If we

3:07:023:07:05

are to sustain this leading

position, the Government commitment

3:07:053:07:10

to the development of a next

generation of combat aircraft,

3:07:103:07:14

precisely as the honourable lady

just said, would be of immense value

3:07:143:07:17

to the industry. The Government is

committed to an industrial strategy

3:07:173:07:25

process with a defence sector deal

as a component of that. The question

3:07:253:07:29

is, whether that is sufficient or

whether we need a separate strategy?

3:07:293:07:35

It does seem rather strange to me,

at least, that when we have a

3:07:353:07:40

separate national shipbuilding

strategy and shipbuilding, for all

3:07:403:07:44

its valuable potential for export

does not even begin to approach the

3:07:443:07:47

potential for export and the actual

magnitude of the exports of the

3:07:473:07:52

aerospace industry, it seems rather

strange that we should want to

3:07:523:07:55

subsume a strategy for the aerospace

industry under a general industrial

3:07:553:08:02

strategy, where as we are prepared

to have a separate one for

3:08:023:08:05

shipbuilding.

3:08:053:08:10

In the case of the joint strike

fighter, the Lightning Two we

3:08:103:08:17

provide parts for all aircraft bill.

We only provide sections of the

3:08:173:08:22

aircraft. That may be not enough to

sustain our importance as a prime

3:08:223:08:31

integrator with all the supply

companies that depend on process.

3:08:313:08:39

The industry is asking the

government to think ahead, and to

3:08:393:08:42

make advanced investment, so that we

will be able to be in the van of

3:08:423:08:50

future development in Accra. I

believe requests for investment have

3:08:503:08:56

to be a two way process. I would

just point out for example, not just

3:08:563:09:02

BAE Systems, Rolls-Royce saying

themselves the current R&D

3:09:023:09:07

investment in future it

3:09:073:09:12

-- combat aircraft ceases in 2018.

If the government wants countries to

3:09:173:09:23

invest in the future of the industry

we are entitled to say to these

3:09:233:09:29

companies, you need to invest in the

future of the workforce. As I

3:09:293:09:34

pointed out, in response to the

urgent question about the BAE

3:09:343:09:38

Systems redundant

3:09:383:09:41

Question. It is a massive company

enjoying monopoly position in the

3:09:453:09:51

British defence structure. It should

be working in the closest way

3:09:513:09:53

possible in operation with the

government to see whether these job

3:09:533:09:56

losses can be mitigated. It is a two

way process. We need the companies

3:09:563:10:02

to invest in the workforce.

It is a

pleasure to follow the honourable

3:10:023:10:08

gentleman, as always. Let me add my

congratulations to my honourable

3:10:083:10:12

friend or having secured this

debate. The honourable gentleman is

3:10:123:10:17

of course right in the need for

collaboration. The uncertainty,

3:10:173:10:23

which I hope the Minister will be

able to clear up, in her closing

3:10:233:10:30

remarks, is over the extent of this

government is my commitment to the

3:10:303:10:35

future of aerospace. We are in a

perilous position as a country. We

3:10:353:10:41

have the slowdown affecting many of

my neighbouring constituencies in

3:10:413:10:50

the north-west, with the process of

job losses. There is uncertainty

3:10:503:10:55

over future orders, where the export

market, as my honourable friend said

3:10:553:11:03

remains absolutely key. There is

this question mark over the

3:11:033:11:11

determination, and even I have to

say, the capacity at the moment of

3:11:113:11:15

the Ministry of Defence, to look

forwards, and to do the planning.

3:11:153:11:19

Which is necessary. If this was

aerospace alone, this would be

3:11:193:11:26

concerning enough. Because of other

reasons my honourable friend has so

3:11:263:11:32

adeptly set out. They massive

contribution that it makes to our

3:11:323:11:37

overall industrial base. Advanced

manufacturing drugs, contribution to

3:11:373:11:40

the country that those capabilities

bring. The defence engagement role.

3:11:403:11:45

In being able to underpin our

strategic defence relationships with

3:11:453:11:49

key partner nations. That the worry

is, it is not simply in aerospace

3:11:493:11:57

where this vital forward look under

which the government needs to be

3:11:573:12:03

doing, is potentially stalling. I

was really alarmed to hear recently

3:12:033:12:11

the key spending on the government's

future submarine programme, the

3:12:113:12:18

unfortunately titled NEFC Maritime

underwater security, has been cut,

3:12:183:12:34

and creates the impression that the

government sees it hitting a wall

3:12:343:12:43

with the level of spending

restrictions comparative spending

3:12:433:12:46

restriction on with it. The build-up

of capabilities, when ministers were

3:12:463:12:54

on these benches, understandably at

times, in the way we're seeing a

3:12:543:13:08

remarkable number of projects being

done exactly the same. You have this

3:13:083:13:12

sense that this is the government

which, having once it to balance the

3:13:123:13:21

books, spuriously, but look to the

future, going back into crisis mode,

3:13:213:13:28

going back to this mode of just

being able to get through one

3:13:283:13:31

budget, to another. When the future

planning suffers, it is not only our

3:13:313:13:41

future capability, we end up with an

inferior capability, potentially

3:13:413:13:48

buying off the shelves, losing jobs

and spending much more for it. The

3:13:483:13:52

government does have an opportunity,

there is a window now to actually

3:13:523:13:56

acknowledge the concerns building

up, and I hope the minister does

3:13:563:14:00

that to date.

The whole defence

procurement sector, and the defence

3:14:003:14:09

aerospace industry as a huge role to

play supporting employment, experts

3:14:093:14:15

and grow. Our sovereign defence

community and the national interest

3:14:153:14:18

must lie at the heart of the

decisions we make with government

3:14:183:14:21

policy on defence. We need a

defence, aerospace industrial

3:14:213:14:26

strategy taking into account the

practical needs of our Armed Forces.

3:14:263:14:31

Recent ongoing operations to counter

Daesh, and efforts in

3:14:313:14:48

hurricanes shows that we need a

sovereign skill capacity to

3:14:553:14:59

manufacture platforms, innovating

Britain 52 future. The skills need

3:14:593:15:03

to continue to develop high-tech

world leading aerospace platforms,

3:15:033:15:08

and our skills which are present

across the country, particularly

3:15:083:15:12

present in my own constituency,

which has ever us, Boeing and BAE

3:15:123:15:16

among many others. There are skills

which we must work hard to maintain,

3:15:163:15:22

increasingly, enhance and develop,

there is a serious skills shortage

3:15:223:15:27

of engineers and scientists. We must

avoid being forced to rely entirely

3:15:273:15:32

on expertise from abroad.

In

interrupting my honourable friend,

3:15:323:15:39

would he welcomed the announcement

this week at the Dubai airshow that

3:15:393:15:43

Airbus announced it has struck its

biggest single aircraft order ever,

3:15:433:15:49

for 430 new jets. Great news for the

workforce?

I sank the honourable

3:15:493:15:58

lady for her intervention, I'm

obviously delighted and thrilled,

3:15:583:16:03

for the excellent news we had and

the jobs that will help secure in my

3:16:033:16:06

constituency and elsewhere in the

country. As I have said before, the

3:16:063:16:12

defence and aerospace companies I

have met and engaged with over many

3:16:123:16:15

years are very clear. Without

procurement commitments, over the

3:16:153:16:18

long term, Britain will lose the

skills we have worked so hard to

3:16:183:16:23

nurture and develop. Long-term

nature of this issue, worth

3:16:233:16:27

remembering equipment used in the

2000 lessons intervention derived

3:16:273:16:34

from research and development first

beginning in the 1970s. We cannot

3:16:343:16:37

fall prey to short-term

decision-making, based on the

3:16:373:16:41

current defence and budgetary

landscape and still find skilled

3:16:413:16:45

defence and Aerospace workforce in

the future when we need it the most.

3:16:453:16:49

At this point I would like to thank

the Parliamentary Undersecretary for

3:16:493:16:52

state and defence, the honourable

member for Bournemouth East, to

3:16:523:16:56

write to me to update me with a

progressive department is making on

3:16:563:17:00

the replacement of the typhoon. This

will be welcomed by defence and

3:17:003:17:03

aerospace industries across the

country. And in my constituency in

3:17:033:17:07

particular. The beginnings of the

procurement process has begun. The

3:17:073:17:15

future combat air system will be

vital to supporting our defence and

3:17:153:17:18

aerospace skills. Most importantly,

vital to maintain our sovereign

3:17:183:17:22

defence capabilities. Our place in

the world. Alongside procurement

3:17:223:17:29

like this, important we support the

excellent work done by number of

3:17:293:17:36

aerospace companies to encourage

apprenticeships and graduate

3:17:363:17:37

programmes. These will help to

secure the skills base, as well as

3:17:373:17:43

finding excellent opportunities for

young talent, enhancing our

3:17:433:17:46

country's social mobility. The 5%

club, where companies insure 5% of

3:17:463:17:51

the UK workforce will be

apprentices, or students of

3:17:513:17:57

structured programmes is a very

welcome scheme. I would commend it

3:17:573:18:00

not only to the other manufacturers

in my constituency, that

3:18:003:18:04

manufacturers up and down the

country. Alongside this I welcome

3:18:043:18:07

the efforts of Airbus in particular

and others in the sector, to engage

3:18:073:18:12

directly with universities and

university technical colleges and

3:18:123:18:16

investing heavily in the skilled

research and development we need.

3:18:163:18:20

However our sovereign defence

requirements and the requirements of

3:18:203:18:24

our industries extend beyond that. I

would as the government to consider

3:18:243:18:29

a wide range of research and skills

opportunities in any future

3:18:293:18:34

aerospace and defence strategy. A

comparative approach is required so

3:18:343:18:38

that our Armed Forces have the best

possible technology available, and

3:18:383:18:43

our country has the skills base to

design, build and develop this

3:18:433:18:46

technology.

Can I just say to the

Minister, everyone in here has the

3:18:463:18:59

interests of our country? Defence

apart. The challenge to the Minister

3:18:593:19:03

is not meant in a partisan way. That

is necessary because we want to hold

3:19:033:19:08

the government to account the

respectable of this. Let me just

3:19:083:19:11

say, I think the way in which the

defence and their sadism that share

3:19:113:19:18

the Defence Select Committee and

some of those members here,

3:19:183:19:20

including my honourable friend for

Stoke North, who has moved this

3:19:203:19:24

debate. Some of the evidence given

over the last few weeks about

3:19:243:19:29

defence procurement, the equipment

essential, it should be essential

3:19:293:19:33

reading for all members of this

house. I commend the chair and the

3:19:333:19:37

committee, others here for that. Let

me just say why, because it is

3:19:373:19:42

important, as my honourable friend

from Barrow were saying, this debate

3:19:423:19:45

takes place within the context of a

great deal of uncertainty around the

3:19:453:19:50

whole of the equipment budget. That

uncertainty means the government is

3:19:503:19:55

left, depending on who you believe,

quite considerable sums of money,

3:19:553:20:00

not sure how it is going to feel

that. If we are not careful, we will

3:20:003:20:05

end up with short-term fixes, in

terms of medium and long-term

3:20:053:20:09

strategic objectives. The aerospace

industry is particularly vulnerable

3:20:093:20:14

at the moment to that. Let me just

quote from the select committee.

3:20:143:20:20

Just published this morning. The

evidence of the generals and

3:20:203:20:29

admirals was particularly

challenging for the government. In

3:20:293:20:31

the context of this debate I want to

point out what Air Marshal Sir Basil

3:20:313:20:36

North said. Look at our defence

exports, 80% is in the air sector.

3:20:363:20:42

Yet we do not have an air sector

industrial policy to support the

3:20:423:20:46

very industries that we need to

support those platforms at home to

3:20:463:20:50

sustain these. Not just about

foreign exchange, though we find

3:20:503:20:56

ourselves, people wish to buy our

kit. We are not joined up and

3:20:563:21:01

together in terms of supporting that

initiative. I just think that sums

3:21:013:21:06

up, and I say this to the Minister,

that sums up where we are. If we

3:21:063:21:12

take BAE systems, and there are many

other defence companies. We have the

3:21:123:21:17

typhoon, the Eurofighter, whatever

you want to call it. Rolled out

3:21:173:21:20

until 2040. What happens as a

consequence after that, we're not

3:21:203:21:24

sure. We have the Hawk jets, with

2030 day, many of us have not heard

3:21:243:21:38

until this week. Why Demi you use

this as an opportunity to sustain

3:21:383:21:42

the skills, the expertise, of our

workforce. Why do we take this as an

3:21:423:21:48

opportunity to look at how we might

use the newer Hawks to showcase

3:21:483:21:54

everything that is the best of our

industry and our workforce. To

3:21:543:21:59

retain that sovereignty of ability.

We cannot, in this industry, see it

3:21:593:22:04

as a tap turned on and off. We have

to maintain capability and sustain

3:22:043:22:10

that civility. Much of that is about

exports. -- sustain that capability.

3:22:103:22:18

Where is this next-generation combat

fighter coming from? We are

3:22:183:22:20

uncertain. We all know that

certainty is the key to investment.

3:22:203:22:25

Certainty is the key to maintaining

the skills, the training through

3:22:253:22:30

apprenticeships of future workers,

so I say again to the chair of the

3:22:303:22:34

committee. It should be essential

reading for everybody, the evidence

3:22:343:22:37

come forward to the committee. It

challenges the government to get a

3:22:373:22:43

grip on the equipment procurement of

which aerospace is a crucial and

3:22:433:22:48

dynamic part.

3:22:483:22:52

It is a pleasure to follow so many

speakers in this debate, who have

3:22:523:22:59

spoken with such passion and

knowledge about this topic, about

3:22:593:23:02

which all of us are absolutely

dedicated, on all sides of the

3:23:023:23:06

House. May I also thank the

backbench business committee, the

3:23:063:23:10

having drafted the debate and the

member for style North. I started my

3:23:103:23:19

speech refer to my members interest.

The Royal Air Force and knew it

3:23:193:23:24

would need new aircraft and Ulster

North American company to look at

3:23:243:23:28

designing one and it became the

legendary P 51 Mustang. That went

3:23:283:23:32

from request a first flight in 141

days. It's fairly trite that we

3:23:323:23:36

cannot do that any more. That is

precisely why, from my perspective,

3:23:363:23:41

I would like this topic to be

considered seriously by the

3:23:413:23:45

Government, because we had to think

about the kind of capability that we

3:23:453:23:48

are going to need in the future,

what it's going to be, where it is

3:23:483:23:55

going to come from, what the air

force needs and how we are going to

3:23:553:23:58

get it. Because the story we've seen

from 1940, the decline in many ways

3:23:583:24:04

of the British aircraft industry is

very sad. I will give you two quick

3:24:043:24:08

examples in my limited time as to

what we should try and avoid. The

3:24:083:24:14

60s, three V bombers, competing with

three excellent designs. Why was

3:24:143:24:17

that we had three excellent designs

competing for the same space with

3:24:173:24:20

the result we now have none of those

aircraft industries existing on

3:24:203:24:25

their own? Secondly, the Harrier,

probably the last great British

3:24:253:24:29

aircraft that we sold to the

Americans. We then looked at having

3:24:293:24:32

an advanced Harrier and for various

reasons we decided in the end to

3:24:323:24:37

pull out of Rob advanced Harrier

programme. There's a number of

3:24:373:24:40

reasonss for that. Costs for a

start. What we ended up doing,

3:24:403:24:47

albeit in a joint programme, was

essentially buying back from the

3:24:473:24:50

Americans and Anglicised Harrier.

What we saw in the 80s and 90s as an

3:24:503:24:59

Anglicised American aircraft. It is

exactly that I want to avoid. We've

3:24:593:25:03

seen brilliant British industry and

skills and brilliant British

3:25:033:25:07

technology not having the input it

needs, through a lack of looking

3:25:073:25:11

strategically at where we are going

to be going. That is exactly what...

3:25:113:25:17

I would add that the fact the

typhoon began on the drawing board

3:25:173:25:21

in 1984 and came into service in

2003. Isn't that the problem?

3:25:213:25:27

I'm very grateful to him for making

that point. If we look at typhoon or

3:25:273:25:35

F35, and the a 400 M, all these have

had a gestation period of running

3:25:353:25:40

between 20,030 years, depending on

how you cut the initial date. If

3:25:403:25:44

that is a sort of period we're

looking at, we need to be looking at

3:25:443:25:48

what we will be replacing typhoon

with when it is out of service and I

3:25:483:25:53

know it is counter intuitive, I'm

grateful to the honourable member

3:25:533:25:58

for pointing out, but we have to

consider what will be replacing it.

3:25:583:26:01

That is something we have to start

doing. I would like is all not to

3:26:013:26:04

become, as we tend to become, quite

fixated on fast jets and a strike

3:26:043:26:09

aircraft. We also have to look at

trainers and transport aircraft as

3:26:093:26:12

well. We have already referred to

the Hawk and that is something we

3:26:123:26:17

would have to look into this mix.

What I'm tried to say is I want to

3:26:173:26:20

see ambition

3:26:203:26:30

for aviation, as we all do. I want

to see where the fast jet capability

3:26:383:26:41

will come from in the future and

also the transport aircraft coming

3:26:413:26:43

from the future, so we know what

will be replacing current aircraft.

3:26:433:26:46

Hercules will probably be long gone

by that stage. But what we are

3:26:463:26:48

likely to need because it is very

inefficient to send the type 45

3:26:483:26:51

destroyer to go and do some light

patrol activities in the Caribbean

3:26:513:26:53

when we could send a patrol plane.

Likewise, if you want a show of

3:26:533:26:56

force, do you want to send a F35 to

support troops when there is little

3:26:563:26:59

or no effort coming back from the

other side? Or could we look at what

3:26:593:27:02

the Americans are doing this, could

we be doing that? I don't know the

3:27:023:27:05

answer to that and that is something

the air force and Ministry of

3:27:053:27:07

Defence will have to consider. My

point is we have to look at what

3:27:073:27:10

we're going to need, how we're going

to go about getting it, what could

3:27:103:27:14

capability is and go forward and

look at it from here. We can't do

3:27:143:27:17

that unless we have that ambition

for aviation. I have concentrated on

3:27:173:27:24

typhoon. The jobs come the industry,

and there are lots in my

3:27:243:27:28

constituency who are dependent on

Brize Norton, Boeing, this is

3:27:283:27:38

important

3:27:383:27:38

Brize Norton, Boeing, this is

important as well. I'm very grateful

3:27:393:27:39

for short time that has been

available to me. I would like to see

3:27:393:27:45

a seven aerospace strategy so we

know where we are going and we have

3:27:453:27:48

the

3:27:483:27:48

know where we are going and we have

the ambition that aviation that

3:27:483:27:49

we'll want to see.

I have to reduce

the time limit to three minutes,

3:27:493:27:53

Kevin Jones.

Can I congratulate my honourable

3:27:533:27:58

friend for scheduling this debate.

She has outlined the importance of

3:27:583:28:01

this industry to the UK economy. The

crisis we face is of the

3:28:013:28:05

Government's making. In 2010 it came

in and took great capability out,

3:28:053:28:11

scrapped things like Nimrod and two

years ago, David Cameron promised

3:28:113:28:16

trying to put forward a more

ambitious programme of development,

3:28:163:28:21

including the P8 purchase, more

A/Vs, the attack helicopter. The

3:28:213:28:28

interesting point is, there was no

extra money in that programme. It

3:28:283:28:31

was going to be paid for by

efficiencies and property sales. The

3:28:313:28:35

only increase money, the shopping

list going to £24.4 billion. The

3:28:353:28:43

only extra money with £6.4 billion,

and that was to accelerate the

3:28:433:28:49

in-service date of the F35. That

left £7.3 billion from efficiency

3:28:493:28:55

savings, £10.7 billion from land

sales. Neither of which have been

3:28:553:29:00

met. £310 million will be met from

efficiencies by 2020 on staff. It

3:29:003:29:11

will cost £1 billion. It is of their

own making, in terms of the black

3:29:113:29:15

hole they have now developed in the

equipment programme. Added to that

3:29:153:29:19

some of the ridiculous and stupid

decisions they made in the

3:29:193:29:22

procurement in the last couple of

years. In terms of the procurement

3:29:223:29:27

of the P8 and Apache, with the

Brexit and plummet in Pound, it will

3:29:273:29:32

add to our cost. The minister

intervened on a member earlier on

3:29:323:29:37

and announce the importance of

orders being placed with Airbus. Can

3:29:373:29:41

I ask why she did not give that

contract for the P8 to a British

3:29:413:29:46

company? Because in terms of Boeing,

they made lots of promises in this

3:29:463:29:49

country about what they are going to

invest but I am telling you now, if

3:29:493:29:53

it had been the other way round, the

US buying a British product, it

3:29:533:29:56

would not have been done without

clear commitments to workshare

3:29:563:30:00

taking place in the USA. You only

have to look at the air tanker

3:30:003:30:05

contract to see the muscle and way

in which they protect jobs in

3:30:053:30:10

America first, rather than overseas.

So the Government are actually

3:30:103:30:14

adding to this problem. The clear

question and simple question has to

3:30:143:30:19

be asked - does the Government on

strategic capability for fast jets

3:30:193:30:25

plus, if it does, it will have to

pay for them. The hawk, I think we

3:30:253:30:29

are in clear danger of us getting in

a situation where we will not be

3:30:293:30:34

able to provide fast jet trainers in

this country. It used to be an

3:30:343:30:37

annual thing when I was a Defence

Minister for tabloids and Tory MPs

3:30:373:30:41

to stand up and say Labour were

going to scrap the Red Arrows, we

3:30:413:30:44

never were. With this government, we

are in danger, that is exactly what

3:30:443:30:48

will happen if those orders are not

coming forward. It is a

3:30:483:30:52

short-sighted government making lots

of promises in terms of equipment

3:30:523:30:54

but in practice, if you look at

what's happened, it's not been

3:30:543:31:00

funded and the actual problem is

facing our industry is once we get

3:31:003:31:02

rid of those skills, you can't turn

them back on like a tap. We will be

3:31:023:31:06

out of it for good. It will mean if

we want a Red Arrows display team in

3:31:063:31:10

future, it will have aircraft from

either Korea, France or Italy, and

3:31:103:31:16

that would be a damning indictment

this government.

3:31:163:31:20

It is a huge privilege to follow my

honourable friend. We work very

3:31:233:31:27

closely on these matters for Durham

North. Can I thank the member for

3:31:273:31:33

Stoke North also, for calling this

debate today. This really matters to

3:31:333:31:37

my constituency. We are the home of

typhoon final assembly and hawk

3:31:373:31:43

final assembly. 6000 men and women

work at BAE Systems in Walton and

3:31:433:31:49

thousands more in the supply chain.

I know how important an industrial

3:31:493:31:52

defence strategy is. With just over

two and a half minutes, can I focus

3:31:523:31:57

on a key number of points... It is a

huge privilege to represent a

3:31:573:32:02

constituency where you see a

aircraft are being built, designed,

3:32:023:32:06

developed, but also where you can

see them being exported around the

3:32:063:32:08

world. Can I thank the Minister for

the support she has given on the

3:32:083:32:13

Government has given to incredibly

competitive defence export markets,

3:32:133:32:21

particularly the Kingdom of Saudi

Arabia, Qatar, oh man and other

3:32:213:32:23

countries around the world was not

please can we maintain that support?

3:32:233:32:26

Can we also make sure that the

development work that we have

3:32:263:32:29

secured through the memorandum of

understanding with France on combat

3:32:293:32:36

vehicles, but that is maintained and

continues, and that the technology

3:32:363:32:40

that is designed from the fat system

can be maintained and secured and

3:32:403:32:44

then put into what will be a six

generation. The former Prime

3:32:443:32:50

Minister David Cameron came to my

constituency on three occasions, all

3:32:503:32:52

of them highly regarded. On his

final visit he outlined the

3:32:523:33:00

Government's commitment to a sixth

generation fighter aircraft. Can I

3:33:003:33:04

urge the Minister to make sure that

we continue to work to make good on

3:33:043:33:08

that commitment, to deliver it not

just to keep the United Kingdom

3:33:083:33:12

secure, and I say that as a man who

has had the privilege of seeing

3:33:123:33:16

typhoon and tornadoes keeping people

in harm 's way of Isis, keeping them

3:33:163:33:24

safe. Can we ensure the defence

strategy ensures these we have jobs

3:33:243:33:31

in the UK in future? The system is

not buying off-the-shelf, because if

3:33:313:33:34

we do not have our own strong

industrial base, then when it comes

3:33:343:33:37

to working on collaborative

programme such as F35, we won't have

3:33:373:33:43

the technology and ability to chip

into a programme in the way we have

3:33:433:33:50

with Tim Palmer. Having that ability

is absolutely critical. We have some

3:33:503:33:53

of the best people anywhere in the

world that work in our aviation

3:33:533:33:57

defence industry. I am incredibly

proud of them. Can I make sure sure

3:33:573:34:03

we do everything we can to support

them in what is an incredibly tough

3:34:033:34:06

time for them, and some of them

potentially facing redundancies. We

3:34:063:34:09

are good at this. We are very, very

dedicated in this side of the House

3:34:093:34:16

to making sure we have a bright

future for our defence industry.

3:34:163:34:20

Thank you so much.

We have to take

the time limit down to two minutes.

3:34:203:34:27

Perhaps it is right and proper if

inform the chamber my daughter is a

3:34:273:34:32

serving officer in the Royal Air

Force. I am new to this brief but I

3:34:323:34:36

have read the proceedings of the

defence committee on the 25th of

3:34:363:34:40

October. I would like to accentuate

two points. The first has already

3:34:403:34:44

been made, about the P8, the

involvement with this aircraft. I

3:34:443:34:48

suppose we had nothing else we could

do at that time, it was two years

3:34:483:34:52

ago, but I have to say for the

record I am equally unhappy we

3:34:523:34:55

didn't look to British industry to

build this aircraft but perhaps we

3:34:553:34:59

had no choice. But let's not make

any mistake about our friends in

3:34:593:35:02

Boeing. I only have to say one word

in this chamber, which is

3:35:023:35:08

Bombardier. It underlines the

crucial importance of a strategy for

3:35:083:35:12

our error defence industry in

future.

3:35:123:35:14

This second point I want to make is

this. Picking up the point made by

3:35:143:35:18

the honourable member of Whitney

opposite me. Let us remember why we

3:35:183:35:23

won the Second World War. It is

because the 1920s, 30s and 40s, our

3:35:233:35:29

air row defence industry was broadly

based, had expertise and was

3:35:293:35:33

innovative. If you study your

history, you find we alt designed

3:35:333:35:36

and out built our foes. I things

aircraft was the best in the world.

3:35:363:35:47

I think that is extraordinarily

important and history speaks in that

3:35:473:35:51

regard. I have almost finished my

time Madam Deputy Speaker. I

3:35:513:35:58

apologise... I conclude with this,

my constituency I represent the pain

3:35:583:36:03

weapons range and Cape wrath. I hope

very much to see a sixth generation

3:36:033:36:11

fighter aircraft flying over my

constituency before they have put me

3:36:113:36:14

in a wooden box and carried me away.

Thank you.

3:36:143:36:20

This is an issue that matters

fundamentally to me. I have the Puma

3:36:203:36:24

Squadron in my constituency in RAF

Benson and are very concerned to

3:36:243:36:32

hear questions being raised over the

future of Puma and how it fits into

3:36:323:36:37

any strategy we may be thinking of

developing. I think we need to take

3:36:373:36:42

account of a proper assessment and

strategy which covers many of the

3:36:423:36:46

points raised by the honourable lady

in her initial contribution. The

3:36:463:36:51

Puma is not an old aircraft, as is

occasionally stated. All of the

3:36:513:36:56

Pumas were found to be in excellent

condition and there is no embedded

3:36:563:37:00

in in making -- no impediment of an

out of date date of 2025 later. In

3:37:003:37:11

addition to that, you may have to

look at the contribution that these

3:37:113:37:15

aircraft have made to operations

around the world, whether deploying

3:37:153:37:20

in Afghanistan in support of

operations, or supporting vital aid

3:37:203:37:24

in the Caribbean in their recent

hurricane disasters. They have shown

3:37:243:37:33

enormous ability to be ready for

operations within a few hours of

3:37:333:37:36

arrival and they can make an ideal

platform to support special forces.

3:37:363:37:40

A low operating costs, delivering

excellent value for money. If I can

3:37:483:37:52

just turn to that, as my final

point, the 260 million contract to

3:37:523:37:58

upgrade 24 helicopters was noted by

the National Audit Office as a

3:37:583:38:03

programme delivered on time, and to

cost. If I can just finish with a

3:38:033:38:09

quote from Commander Major General

Richard Felling. Out of all the

3:38:093:38:15

aircraft I have flown, Puma Two made

my jaw dropped the most.

Can I

3:38:153:38:26

congratulate my honourable friend

for Stoke-on-Trent North and Whitney

3:38:263:38:29

for securing this debate. I normally

talk up the Royal Navy when I stand

3:38:293:38:33

here, but Plymouth is a proud home

to the makers of gizmos enjoy those

3:38:333:38:38

that support our aerospace

industries. The clear ask for both

3:38:383:38:42

sides of the House is a clear

long-term strategy or the private

3:38:423:38:46

sector, and supply chain can invest

in the jobs and skills required to

3:38:463:38:52

supply the RAF and fighting forces

with the most capable equipment to

3:38:523:38:55

secure our long-term position. We do

not live in the nine times. That is

3:38:553:39:01

important. The context of the

military world needs to be taken

3:39:013:39:04

into account in this debate. We are

facing a resurgent Russia investing

3:39:043:39:08

in its aerospace, and naval powers.

We need to keep pace with that. The

3:39:083:39:14

aircraft coming online shortly are

formidable. We need a long-term

3:39:143:39:18

commitment to ensure we have a

generation to come next. I worry

3:39:183:39:22

about the sovereign defence key

abilities of this country being

3:39:223:39:25

eroded, not by long-term thoughtful

strategy, but by short termism which

3:39:253:39:30

is afflicting the gunmen at this

present moment. We need to look

3:39:303:39:33

carefully at this, just as the

government minister told me the

3:39:333:39:36

apprentice gilding the last of the

frigates has not yet been born,

3:39:363:39:42

there is no such parallel in the

aerospace sector. We need to make

3:39:423:39:45

sure there is one. Having a new

Defence Secretary offers a chance

3:39:453:39:49

for a fresh start. Not only in the

aerospace sector, but considering

3:39:493:39:54

cuts to the Royal Navy I have spoken

about elsewhere. The opportunity for

3:39:543:39:59

a fresh start and new thinking could

provide certainty for our sector to

3:39:593:40:03

invest in the jobs and skills we

absolutely need at the moment. I

3:40:033:40:08

feel at times in our aerospace

sector, despite the importance in

3:40:083:40:12

the economy, we have had a victory

tactics over strategy. I would

3:40:123:40:16

advise the garment to look for a

long-term strategy to secure the

3:40:163:40:19

jobs we need. Oh, my goodness.

I'm

very grateful to the honourable

3:40:193:40:30

members for Stoke North and Whitney

for calling this debate. My

3:40:303:40:34

constituency has a historic link to

the British defence, aviation and

3:40:343:40:40

defence industry. In Farmborough,

the first British flight was made by

3:40:403:40:43

Samuel Cody from Farnborough Heath,

piloting the British Army aeroplane

3:40:433:40:48

number one, which he himself had

built. I was the start of a

3:40:483:40:53

remarkable industry in and around

Farmborough. Today leaving us a

3:40:533:40:57

tremendous legacy. Including the

headquarters of BAE Systems itself,

3:40:573:41:01

just a few metres from the very

runway where Samuel Cody took off.

3:41:013:41:07

Madam Deputy Speaker, it is that

sort of courageous innovation that

3:41:073:41:11

needs to be at the heart of a

defence, aviation and aerospace

3:41:113:41:14

strategy. Which I fully endorse,

because we have had for such a

3:41:143:41:18

strategy to exist. I would like to

mention three things I think are

3:41:183:41:23

very important, Madam Deputy

Speaker. In terms of future

3:41:233:41:25

strategy. Firstly, an element of

competition is important. Different

3:41:253:41:32

providers can bid for work. Driving

up standards and costs down.

3:41:323:41:37

Innovation is critical, especially

in critical capabilities we need to

3:41:373:41:45

advance on our own terms. Thirdly,

Madam Deputy Speaker, ex-portability

3:41:453:41:50

is absolutely fundamental. I am

encouraged by the ex-portability

3:41:503:41:55

component of the excellent national

shipbuilding strategy. I would like

3:41:553:42:00

to see that sort of ethos in a

future defence, aviation and

3:42:003:42:05

aerospace strategy. Being able to

export of world leading defence

3:42:053:42:11

exports, not just a matter of good

send jobs, it is a matter of global

3:42:113:42:16

standing on a global reach, and our

global power.

That was preventing

3:42:163:42:23

quick.

-- brilliantly quick. Can I

also congratulate the honourable

3:42:233:42:31

members for Stoke and Whitney was

during this debate. On the 10th of

3:42:313:42:34

October I raised an urgent question

with the speaker on the question of

3:42:343:42:40

over 1000 job losses across

Lancashire in the aerospace

3:42:403:42:42

industry. Which was addressed on

that occasion. The response was,

3:42:423:42:51

obviously, the jobs could not be

maintained, and the principal reason

3:42:513:42:53

for that was the order is coming

through were not enough. The

3:42:533:43:02

honourable member said quite rightly

we are doing quite well from orders

3:43:023:43:04

from the Middle East countries, but

really Typhoon is a world beating

3:43:043:43:09

aircraft, it should be sold around

the world. Nobody was more angry and

3:43:093:43:12

upset and I was when we did not get

the India contract. I'm sure there

3:43:123:43:17

are other contracts with good

cooperation between government and

3:43:173:43:19

industry that we could do government

to government deals. In order to

3:43:193:43:24

keep the supply of the Typhoons

running. There are two big issues,

3:43:243:43:32

facing BAE Systems. One is keeping

the current Typhoon were going. It

3:43:323:43:40

has been slowing, the production

lines have slow down. That is mainly

3:43:403:43:45

because it is not been sold as much

as we thought it would, and not been

3:43:453:43:51

sold in. There is a question of the

sixth generation fighter. The

3:43:513:43:55

elephant in the room seems to be who

we collaborate with. The chair of

3:43:553:44:00

the defence committee mentioned

himself, we need integration

3:44:003:44:06

capabilities. Something we're not

getting a great deal of with the

3:44:063:44:14

F-35. We will not get that with our

European neighbours. The French and

3:44:143:44:19

Germans need to be candidates, we

have to develop that sixth

3:44:193:44:23

generation fighter, and sell it and

select better than we have the

3:44:233:44:26

typhoon, to date.

Thank you Mbemba

pretty Speaker. I will start by

3:44:263:44:32

congratulating the honourable member

for Stoke North for making a

3:44:323:44:36

powerful case for the need for a

defence, aerospace and industrial

3:44:363:44:39

strategy. For getting us all here on

a Thursday afternoon. It is

3:44:393:44:47

remarkable in less than an hour we

have heard from members from New

3:44:473:44:52

Forest East, Barrow and Furness,

Filton and Bradley Stoke, Whitney,

3:44:523:44:58

Durham North, Sutherland and Easter

Ross, Henley, Plymouth, Aldershot

3:44:583:45:01

and Preston. There has been

consensus across the House for the

3:45:013:45:07

need for this strategy. BAE's

announcement in October that they

3:45:073:45:14

were planning to slow the production

on the Typhoon and Hawk jets,

3:45:143:45:24

resulting in job losses, shock to

many of us in this place. In

3:45:243:45:27

hindsight, maybe we should not have

been surprised. Without any defence

3:45:273:45:32

and industrial strategy, there can

be no certainty industry. Not just

3:45:323:45:36

the 2000 BAE workers who will be

effective. That the small and

3:45:363:45:43

medium-sized enterprises, supply

chains, local communities, all

3:45:433:45:44

feeling the impact of this

announcement. Importantly, we faced

3:45:443:45:52

losing key skills from this

industry, at a time when we should

3:45:523:45:55

be protecting them, and developing

them. Really this strategy must look

3:45:553:45:59

not just at procurement, and plans

for equipment, but how they're going

3:45:593:46:04

to ensure we have the skilled

workforce for the future. We have

3:46:043:46:10

reckless decisions on the already

affecting the security of our UK.

3:46:103:46:16

Russian submarine incursions into

the waters off Scotland's West Coast

3:46:163:46:24

are reaching levels we have not seen

since the end of the Cold War. The

3:46:243:46:27

former Defence Secretary admitted

this himself, and warned of an

3:46:273:46:31

extraordinary increase in Russian

submarine activity in the North

3:46:313:46:33

Atlantic. When he gave evidence to

MPs last month. Despite the

3:46:333:46:39

warnings, the UK's ability to find

the submarines has been drastically

3:46:393:46:43

hampered since the Nimrods were

scrapped six years ago. You see an

3:46:433:46:50

American, Canadian and Norwegian

aircraft in UK airspace helping to

3:46:503:46:56

pick up the slack. My honourable

friend, the member for West

3:46:563:47:03

Dunbartonshire tabled a written

question about this after flight

3:47:033:47:06

tracking websites had tracked the

friendly aircraft, thought to be

3:47:063:47:09

looking for a vessel at the end of

last month, he asked which Nato

3:47:093:47:13

countries provided maritime patrol

aircraft for use in UK airspace? The

3:47:133:47:20

Armed Forces Minister admitted

aircraft from the United States and

3:47:203:47:24

Canada were temporarily deployed to

RAF Lossiemouth, during the period

3:47:243:47:29

in question. This is a fundamental

problem we're having, Apple had to

3:47:293:47:36

wait many years fact. The P8s and

can be available in 2024, another

3:47:363:47:48

seven years until they are

operational. We can only assume the

3:47:483:47:51

Russian incursion will continue. The

government must admit their actions

3:47:513:47:55

have an impact. The fall in the

value of the pound has exposed the

3:47:553:48:02

taxpayer to increase spending. The

former national security adviser,

3:48:023:48:07

Lyall Grant stating the MoD

officials were having to address a

3:48:073:48:11

funding shortfall, well before a

final Brexit deal. He said national

3:48:113:48:19

security cannot be divorced from

economic security. Putting it at its

3:48:193:48:24

most basic if the British economy

suffers as a result of the prospect

3:48:243:48:29

and relative Brexit, our ability to

fund the ambitious 2015 Strategic

3:48:293:48:36

Defence Review will be at risk.

Whether we continue to spend two

3:48:363:48:43

percent of GDP or not. This is

something that has to be considered

3:48:433:48:49

as part of the industrial strategy.

We also have to look at the impact

3:48:493:48:54

of Brexit. Be you provides important

opportunities for defence research

3:48:543:49:00

and innovation, through the single

market, but also three bodies like

3:49:003:49:06

the European defence agency. The

government will explore ways UK

3:49:063:49:13

industry can maintain its existing

relationship with European

3:49:133:49:19

counterparts, and benefit from

collective innovation and joint

3:49:193:49:22

projects. The challenge for many

companies is to remain globally

3:49:223:49:33

competitive, and this is how

industrial strategy, regardless of

3:49:333:49:36

the fence, aerospace or security can

help. The government must for

3:49:363:49:42

investment in future skills and

education, promoting

3:49:423:49:46

apprenticeships, technical courses,

and building capability for the

3:49:463:49:48

future. We need to recognise and

support the regional clusters of

3:49:483:49:53

universities, colleges and companies

where collaboration is pushing the

3:49:533:49:57

very boundaries of innovation.

Firmino solutions for the defence

3:49:573:50:03

sector have been applied to the

civil aerospace sector, creating

3:50:033:50:08

potential for significant new

business and economic expansion over

3:50:083:50:12

the next decade. Focus on

collaborative programmes in Europe,

3:50:123:50:19

US, South America and Asia are

needed to position the UK, or

3:50:193:50:24

continue to position the UK is a

global and competitive player.

3:50:243:50:30

Finally any strategy for defence

aerospace should ensure access to

3:50:303:50:36

the best possible equipment and

capabilities for the UK Armed Forces

3:50:363:50:40

is safeguarded.

It has been

important to have this debate this

3:50:403:50:49

afternoon. I congratulate the

honourable member for Stoke-on-Trent

3:50:493:50:52

North, on the opening speech. The

debate has been important, because

3:50:523:50:57

of a significance of a defence

aerospace industry to this country

3:50:573:51:02

and our nation's defence. This

afternoon I briefly want to make two

3:51:023:51:07

points. The second point is about

the need for a well thought out

3:51:073:51:10

industrial strategy for the sector.

First I want to refer to the

3:51:103:51:16

particular problem that has been

experienced with BAE Systems. As the

3:51:163:51:23

member for Preston has set in

October BAE Systems announced up to

3:51:233:51:27

1400 jobs would be lost by its

military aerospace business over the

3:51:273:51:32

next three years. BAE has said the

cuts will be implemented by the 1st

3:51:323:51:37

of January, and will affect managers

as well as production line workers.

3:51:373:51:42

At its aerospace bases of parts of

the Eurofighter Typhoon are made and

3:51:423:51:52

assemble, there will be 750 losses.

At the other aerospace base in East

3:51:523:51:59

Yorkshire, there will be a near

halving of the workforce, to 500.

3:51:593:52:04

This is made all the more difficult

because 500 jobs were previously

3:52:043:52:10

lost that this site four years ago.

These job losses will have a

3:52:103:52:14

devastating impact on the

individuals affected and their

3:52:143:52:17

families. It will also hit those

communities which have a long

3:52:173:52:22

tradition of providing workers for

the aerospace industry. Moreover,

3:52:223:52:26

many of these jobs are highly

specialised, and extremely skilled.

3:52:263:52:31

Once those skills have been lost in

the industry it will be enormously

3:52:313:52:34

difficult to replace them. As a

member for North Durham has said

3:52:343:52:38

quite accurately.

3:52:383:52:40

A few days ago my honourable friend

the shadow of Defence Secretary and

3:52:403:52:46

other members of the opposition,

wrote to the new Secretary of State

3:52:463:52:51

for Defence. The letter made a

number of important points and calls

3:52:513:52:55

upon the Government to take action

in a number of areas. The letter

3:52:553:53:00

refers to the fact that the Hawk

advanced jet trainer is currently in

3:53:003:53:05

use by 18 countries around the world

and it is therefore vital that the

3:53:053:53:09

UK does its upmost to provide the

Hawk aircraft as a good option for

3:53:093:53:15

other nations as well. I would

therefore like to ask the Minister

3:53:153:53:19

what steps the Government are taking

to move the Hawk advanced jet

3:53:193:53:26

trainer broadcast at the Hawk is the

aircraft of the iconic Red Arrows.

3:53:263:53:31

In a few years' time the Red Arrows

will need new hawks and so it makes

3:53:313:53:38

sense for the Government to bring

forward orders for the new Hawk T2s

3:53:383:53:44

said there can be continuity of

manufacturer. As the Minister for

3:53:443:53:48

procurement will no, there is a

precedent for this. The Government

3:53:483:53:52

has brought forward orders for

offshore patrol vessels to fill gaps

3:53:523:53:58

in orders. If the Government can do

it once, they can do it twice.

3:53:583:54:05

There is also the statement of

intent with Qatar, with the former

3:54:053:54:09

Defence Secretary signed for the

purchase of 24 typhoons and six Hawk

3:54:093:54:17

aircraft. This was signed earlier in

the year. We want to see this

3:54:173:54:23

statement of intent firmed up as

quickly as humanly possible. This

3:54:233:54:27

contract is of tremendous importance

and I would be appreciative if the

3:54:273:54:31

Minister could update us on any

progress that has been made.

3:54:313:54:34

The problems which are being faced

by BAE Systems at the moment served

3:54:343:54:39

to highlight the more general

problem of a lack of a defence

3:54:393:54:44

aerospace industrial strategy. We

welcome the fact, even belatedly,

3:54:443:54:48

the Government has produced a

national shipbuilding strategy. As

3:54:483:54:53

the member from Stoke-on-Trent. We

would argue this strategy produced

3:54:533:55:01

for the Erw defence -- defence

industry. Such a strategy should

3:55:013:55:13

contain a number of elements, for

example, that ought to be full of

3:55:133:55:18

engagement of industry so they can

have a more strategic approach,

3:55:183:55:25

addressing the present and future

needs of the Armed Forces. There

3:55:253:55:29

must be a long-term commitment of

government to development of the

3:55:293:55:35

aerospace sector and a long-term

perspective, in order to give

3:55:353:55:41

confidence and certainty, which in

turn will encourage business and

3:55:413:55:44

investment. There ought to be a

perpetual encouragement for industry

3:55:443:55:48

to develop new and innovative

approaches and technologies. This

3:55:483:55:52

would be helpful and allow the

Government to give the industry

3:55:523:56:00

broom to develop blue sky thinking.

When we look at Brent -- Britain's

3:56:003:56:06

national interest, it cannot be

right for Britain to the buying so

3:56:063:56:11

many of our capabilities

off-the-shelf, as the member for

3:56:113:56:16

Barrow in Furness argued this

afternoon. In place of going for a

3:56:163:56:22

short fix, the Government should see

things in the long-term and value

3:56:223:56:27

the economic contribution which the

defence industry makes to the

3:56:273:56:30

British economy and to the nation's

balance of payments.

3:56:303:56:33

Let us not forget, defence

manufacturers in general and the

3:56:333:56:39

aerospace sector in particular pay

corporation tax and national

3:56:393:56:45

insurance and have subcontractors

and suppliers. In this context, it

3:56:453:56:49

has been suggested, as the chair of

the select committee has mentioned,

3:56:493:56:56

there ought to be a general

government commitment to an

3:56:563:57:03

examination at least the development

of a next generation of combat

3:57:033:57:05

aircraft. It has been suggested that

such an aircraft will enter service

3:57:053:57:12

in the 23rd twos and replace the

Typhoon class aircraft. I would like

3:57:123:57:17

to know what the Government's

position on this suggestion is.

3:57:173:57:23

Madam Deputy Speaker, today we have

had a good debate on the importance

3:57:233:57:26

of it. There can be no doubt that it

is absolutely vital that Britain has

3:57:263:57:30

a vibrant Erw defence sector. We

have a workforce of which we can be

3:57:303:57:36

proud and an industry which is full

of enthusiasm and commitment. What

3:57:363:57:41

we need is a government policy which

is up to the challenges we face.

3:57:413:57:49

Thank you very much. It gives me

great pleasure to respond to this

3:57:493:57:54

debate this afternoon. Again, I

congratulate the honourable lady for

3:57:543:57:57

Stoke-on-Trent North and the

honourable member for Whitney for

3:57:573:58:00

securing it. We have heard 14 really

interesting and compelling backbench

3:58:003:58:06

contributions over the course of

today's debate. I think I will start

3:58:063:58:10

by picking up on some of the general

themes that came out of those

3:58:103:58:15

various contributions.

First of all, many members spoke out

3:58:153:58:19

on behalf of the incredible work the

BAe work. In their constituency. And

3:58:193:58:24

of course, we have heard an urgent

question in recent days on this

3:58:243:58:28

subject. It is a decision made by

the company and they are currently

3:58:283:58:33

consulting with the workforce, but

as the largest customer I have been

3:58:333:58:37

discussing with a company that we

would look to ensure that they would

3:58:373:58:41

avoid any compulsory redundancies.

Also, of course, as an employer

3:58:413:58:49

ourselves where there may be people

at the right skills that could fit

3:58:493:58:52

into our organisation, we are

participating in ongoing discussions

3:58:523:58:57

about that. On the subject of the

maritime underwater future

3:58:573:59:01

capability, I don't think there is

any honourable gentleman who speaks

3:59:013:59:06

up more for his constituents than

the honourable member for Barrow in

3:59:063:59:11

Furness but certainly he would

acknowledge there is a very, very

3:59:113:59:15

solid pipeline of work in his

constituency for decades to come. I

3:59:153:59:20

think from that point of view it

shows the amazing work done by those

3:59:203:59:25

who live and work in his

constituency. In terms of the

3:59:253:59:29

Maritime underwater future

capability project, that is still

3:59:293:59:32

ongoing work and he will have seen

some of the wonderfully imaginative

3:59:323:59:35

ideas that came out recently.

In terms of the Hawk pipeline, I can

3:59:353:59:42

reassure the House we are continuing

to work on export opportunities, in

3:59:423:59:47

terms of Kuwait and India and that

the RAF as 28th of the T2 aircraft

3:59:473:59:53

and there is no risk to the Red

Arrows.

3:59:533:59:59

A number of colleagues raised the

question of P8, and, of course, that

3:59:594:00:04

is a capability whether first were

come into service in 2019. And the

4:00:044:00:10

base in the north of Scotland, which

will be good for the local economy.

4:00:104:00:17

I want to highlight some of the

excellent UK companies in the supply

4:00:174:00:21

chain for the P8. Marshals with

their fuel tanks. Martin Baker with

4:00:214:00:26

the crew seats and GE with the

weapons pylons. I won't take any

4:00:264:00:31

interventions, just because there is

so little time. My honourable friend

4:00:314:00:35

for Henry spoke eloquently about the

excellent humour squadrons in his

4:00:354:00:39

constituencies. A number of

colleagues asked about Typhoon. Just

4:00:394:00:42

to update the House in terms of

those numbers... Overall, so far,

4:00:424:00:47

just over 500 Typhoon have been

built. They are in service and have

4:00:474:00:52

been ordered by nine countries

around the world, and there is still

4:00:524:00:57

a significant pipeline of Typhoons

to be built, and there has been a

4:00:574:01:04

statement of intent signed with

Qatar and government is working as

4:01:044:01:07

hard as it can to ensure that those

and the 12 Hawk aircraft up on

4:01:074:01:12

contract by the end of the year.

Contributions from across the House

4:01:124:01:17

this afternoon have shown that there

is not a corner of our great country

4:01:174:01:22

that is untouched by the nationwide

enterprise that is defence

4:01:224:01:29

aerospace. We have a rising defence

budget overall, and the strategic

4:01:294:01:34

defence and Security review in 2015

set out a 178 billion equipment plan

4:01:344:01:39

over the next decade. In the last

year, where we have recorded

4:01:394:01:44

numbers, 15-16, we had a spent of

over £2 billion as the MOD with UK

4:01:444:01:51

aerospace and that directly

sustained over 7000 jobs. I'm

4:01:514:01:54

delighted to be able to announce

today that we have awarded three new

4:01:544:01:59

contracts worth £160 million to

provide RAF bases across the country

4:01:594:02:04

with export support -- expert

support. As we today's debate, Erw

4:02:044:02:12

base -- aerospace strikes a chord.

There is the historical collection,

4:02:124:02:18

the fact we have 100 years of the

Royal Air Force coming up in the

4:02:184:02:22

next year, and we know that our

country would be a very different

4:02:224:02:25

place were it not for the immense

intervention of air power in World

4:02:254:02:30

War I and in particular in the

Battle of Britain in World War II.

4:02:304:02:34

Indeed, the current crop of aircraft

experts in the UK have that

4:02:344:02:39

worldwide leadership reputation. We

have some of the most technically

4:02:394:02:42

advanced and technically advanced

companies in the world. It is an

4:02:424:02:47

engine of local and national

prosperity. Up to 2500 UK companies

4:02:474:02:51

are involved in it and it generates

more than £33 billion worth of

4:02:514:02:56

turnover, employing more than

120,000 people, including 26,000

4:02:564:03:02

just in research, design and

engineering. Interestingly, more

4:03:024:03:07

than 80% of that production is

actually exported. Of the £64

4:03:074:03:11

billion brought into this country

through defence-related exports in

4:03:114:03:15

the last decade, some 85% of it was

generated by aerospace and much from

4:03:154:03:21

the combat air sector. Crucially, as

the honourable member for Stoke

4:03:214:03:25

North mentioned, we are using our

kit in places like Iraq today, a

4:03:254:03:32

combination of tornadoes and

Typhoons have helped to bring Daesh

4:03:324:03:41

to its knees. I'm sure honourable

members will want to join me in

4:03:414:03:45

paying tribute to all those brave

men and women who are currently

4:03:454:03:48

serving on our aircrews on

deployment.

4:03:484:03:53

We are absolutely right to celebrate

the aerospace sector but we also

4:03:534:03:56

need to talk about the future.

Typhoon, as I said, has been

4:03:564:04:01

selected by nine National air forces

and we are currently pursuing export

4:04:014:04:06

to Bahrain, Belgium, Finland, the

Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, Malaysia

4:04:064:04:14

and, of course, Qatar. Other Typhoon

nations are also exploring export to

4:04:144:04:18

other countries. In terms of looking

ahead, not just one or two years in

4:04:184:04:25

terms of the export pipeline, we

need to look ahead decades, because

4:04:254:04:28

we know our Typhoon aircraft are

going to go out of service in 2040.

4:04:284:04:38

The 2015 SRS in marked money for

precisely in order to protect and

4:04:384:04:46

develop key design and engineering

skills within our industrial base.

4:04:464:04:51

It includes funding for a national

programme to maintain the UK's

4:04:514:04:54

position as a global leader in this

area. Some of the work is with

4:04:544:04:58

France and some is with the US, Tim

at your other high-end technologies.

4:04:584:05:03

So the decision, in terms of the

future combat air, will require us

4:05:034:05:08

to decide at some stage to replace

the capabilities currently delivered

4:05:084:05:14

by Eurofighter Typhoon. It will be a

complex decision, requiring the

4:05:144:05:19

clear military requirement and

detailed consideration of the

4:05:194:05:22

industrial and financial

implications. In terms of the timing

4:05:224:05:25

of the decision, it will be made in

the very early 2020s or sooner, to

4:05:254:05:31

enable a main gate in the

procurement around 2025. In

4:05:314:05:36

conclusion, this is a key sector. We

have had a very good debates,

4:05:364:05:40

highlighting a number of the

different issues in the sector. Our

4:05:404:05:44

approach to the defence aerospace

industry should be one of overall

4:05:444:05:49

industrial strategy, taking into

account the business leaders, and

4:05:494:05:56

the local economy and we must ensure

whatever dangers to come, this great

4:05:564:06:00

industry we have been discussing

today continues to fly even higher,

4:06:004:06:03

faster and further in the future.

Thank you very much. Before I start

4:06:034:06:10

can I apologise to the House

customer and should have directed

4:06:104:06:12

everyone to my registered members

interests. Can I thank all of you

4:06:124:06:18

for participating today. I thank the

Minister for her contribution. I'm a

4:06:184:06:21

little concerned I didn't hear the

words "We will have a defence

4:06:214:06:26

aerospace industrial strategy". I

hope she will be returning to the

4:06:264:06:30

House at some point in the next few

weeks after consulting with

4:06:304:06:32

colleagues to inform us when we will

have a defence aerospace industrial

4:06:324:06:37

strategy. Thank you for the debate.

I hope everyone recognises this is a

4:06:374:06:41

new opportunity to be -- relaunch

the need for industrial strategy

4:06:414:06:46

moving forward.

The question is this house has

4:06:464:06:53

considered defence aerospace

industrial strategy. As many as are

4:06:534:06:55

of the opinion, say "aye". To the

contrary, "no". The ayes have it,

4:06:554:07:01

the ayes have it. Point of order, Mr

Bernhard.

4:07:014:07:08

I wish to place on record my

unreserved apologies to the House

4:07:084:07:14

for my conduct earlier. I was

irritated by something that was said

4:07:144:07:19

and I allowed my irritation to get

the better of me and approach the

4:07:194:07:24

opposition front bench and apologise

unreservedly to the opposition of

4:07:244:07:27

the House and have apologised to the

member in question and I believe he

4:07:274:07:30

accepted my apology.

4:07:304:07:36

I thank the honourable gentleman for

his point of order and courteous and

4:07:364:07:39

unreserved apology. Which is noted

by the whole House. We now come to

4:07:394:07:47

motion number two on the

intelligence and Security committee

4:07:474:07:50

of Parliament.

Madam Deputy Speaker

I beg to move the motion in the name

4:07:504:07:56

of the Prime Minister of the order

paper. Under section one of the

4:07:564:07:59

Justice and Security cat Terry

Matichak the security and

4:07:594:08:05

intelligence committee are nominated

by the pro-minister and appointed by

4:08:054:08:08

the prospective House. The Prime

Minister has nominated the members

4:08:084:08:11

following the required consultations

with the leader of Her

4:08:114:08:14

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