14/12/2017 House of Commons


14/12/2017

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the Act of Parliament which

triggered Article 50. The terms of

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Article 50 were well-known to this

House and they have a fixed duration

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of two years.

Can the Secretary of

State tell us what recent

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discussions he's had with

representatives of the UK financial

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sector on the effect of the UK

leaving the single market, as there

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are increasing reports of jobs being

transferred to other EU countries.

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Since the creation of our department

we have engaged closely with the

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financial services industry and

received representations from UK

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finance for city UK, Association of

foreign banks and investment

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Association as well as many firms in

Edinburgh which is a global leader

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in the asset management and

insurance industry. We'll continue

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to work closely with them and

colleagues at the Treasury to ensure

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our financial services industry

thrives.

Will the government

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consider negotiating our continued

participation in Erasmus?

The Prime

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Minister said we will continue in

areas of culture and education. I

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believe this is something we will

explore in the next phase of talks.

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Last week's agreement recognise the

rights of Northern Ireland citizens

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in line with the Good Friday

Agreement. All the government be

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seeking the same rights for my

constituents in Bristol to work,

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travel and live in the European

Union?

The issue of onward movement

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in the European Union is an issue we

wish to continue to press. It's

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interesting that the European

Parliament made resolutions

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yesterday that it would support the

right of UK nationals to have

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movement within the EU. This is

something we will continue to take

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forward into the next phase of the

negotiations.

On financial services,

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how hopeful ministers that through

the negotiations the UK will retain

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a passport for service providers to

trade across the EU?

We are at the

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start of negotiations on the future

relationships but I think we should

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explore all the possibilities to

make sure the UK and the EU continue

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to benefit from the fact we have a

global financial services Centre in

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London and the UK.

Mr Speaker, B

Secretary of State for Scotland said

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the government would bring forward

amendments to close 11 of the EU

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Bill, well these amendments be

published and shared with the

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Scottish Government had Welsh

Assembly before being tabled?

The

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honourable gentleman is ingenious in

raising the topic of amendments. Of

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course we will want to insular as we

take forward our engagement with the

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devolved administrations this issue

of clause 11 is addressed.

Thank

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you. Order. In view of the interest

in the House and outside, I wish as

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an exception to the general rule to

make a statement about the replies

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which I had sent today to those

honourable members who have written

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to me recently asking me to grant

precedence to matters of privilege

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relating to the motion agreed by the

House and the 1st of November

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covering Brexit impact assessments.

Several members have sought

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precedents to raise an alleged

contempt in relation to the accounts

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ministers have given over the past

15 months of the sectoral analysis

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and assessment work undertaken by

departments in preparation for

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Brexit. I have carefully considered

the representations made to me as

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well as discussing the issue and the

practice of the House with the Clerk

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of the House. I have to judge only

whether to give precedence to a

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motion on the floor of the House.

Ministers could with the advantage

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have been considerably clearer in

their statements, particularly in

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challenging lines of questioning in

the select committees which were

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based upon a genuine misconception.

However, from the evidence which I

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have seen to date, I have concluded

that the test which I am bound to

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apply that there is an arguable case

that there has on this matter been a

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contempt of the House has not been

met. Other members have written to

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me seeking precedents to raise an

alleged contempt in relation to the

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response by the Secretary of State

to the motion for an address agreed

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on the 1st of November. I have

carefully considered the

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representations made to me as as

discussing the issue and the

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practice of the House with the Clerk

of the House. I have to judge only

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whether to give precedence to a

motion on the floor of the House.

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While it was most regrettable that

the Secretary of State, a point I

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made to him privately but I now

state publicly, unilaterally excised

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some material from the papers which

he provided, and that it took so

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long to provide the papers, I also

feel bound to pay due attention to

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the formally recorded view of the

committee that the Secretary of

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State had complied with the order of

the 1st of November. I have

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concluded from the evidence which I

have seen to date that the test

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which I am bound to apply that there

is an arguable case that there has

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on this matter been a contempt of

the House has not been met in this

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case. I do not judge that points of

order can arise from these rulings.

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Business question, Valerie Vaz 's

topic at the Leader of the House

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please update the House on the

forthcoming business. Leader of the

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House Andrea Leadsom.

Thank you Mr

Speaker. The business for the week

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commencing the 18th of December will

be Monday the 18th of December

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consideration in committee of the

Finance Bill Day one. Tuesday the

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19th of December, continuation of

consideration in committee of the

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Finance Bill Day two, followed by a

motion to approve a statutory

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instrument relating to terrorism,

followed by a motion to approve

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European documents relating to the

Schengen information system.

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Wednesday the 20th of December,

conclusion of continuation of

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committee of the European Withdrawal

Bill Day eight. Thursday the 21st of

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December, General debate on Russian

interference in UK politics and

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society followed by a general debate

on matters to be raised before the

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forthcoming adjournment. The

subjects for these debates were

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determined by the Backbench Business

Committee. Friday the 22nd of

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December the House will not be

setting. The business of the week

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commencing the 8th of January will

include on Monday the 8th of January

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the second reading of the taxation

cross-border trade Bill. Colleagues

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will also wish to know that

remaining stages of the European

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Union Withdrawal Bill will take

place on Tuesday the 16th and

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Wednesday the 17th of January 2018.

Mr Speaker, six months have passed

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since the awful tragedy at Grenfell

Tower. Our hearts go out to those

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who suffered such trauma and have

had to rebuild their lives after

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such terrible loss. This was a truly

unimaginable tragedy and it should

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never have happened. Today's

memorial service will remember those

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we lost and will thank the emergency

services, the recovery team, the

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community, public support workers

and volunteers who did everything

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they could on that terrible night.

Valerie Vaz.

Thank you. Can I thank

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the Leader of the House for the

future business. I note cheese only

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gone as far as the 8th of January so

I'm not sure with a date for the

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restoration renewal has also been

fixed for the 11 or if it's going to

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be moved. Mr Speaker, they say good

things come in threes. Firstly

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tomorrow it is Save the Children

Christmas Jumper Day. Secondly, we

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congratulate the new member of the

Alabama the Democrat Doug Jones on

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his victory that politics is about

hope and not division. Thirdly, the

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matter of yesterday. We are very

pleased that finally Parliament has

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been recognised as being sovereign.

It brings back to Parliament the

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final vote on the deal so Parliament

can have a say, just as every

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Parliament in the EU will have a say

on the deal. It enables us to do our

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job. Mr Speaker, you thought three

was the magic number, actually four

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is the magic number. Before anything

happens to those MPs who voted to

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bring sovereignty back to

Parliament, let's remember there are

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many rebels still sitting in this

House. One of the things that are

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going to flow from the EU Withdrawal

Bill are the many SIs which will be

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coming out. The government has

conceded the amendment from the

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procedure committee so can I ask

when will the new committee be set

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up, the sifting committee? Can she

ensured the cheque comes from the

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opposition? Mr Speaker I've heard

what you said about the content and

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the sexual analysis of the

assessments. I have seen the

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documents. We have to almost sign a

note to say we cannot reveal what's

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in it. We are democratically elected

members of Parliament, we cannot

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share that information with our

constituents, I don't think that is

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acceptable. If there is any

commercial information in there that

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may or may not be excluded, and if

it's just a matter of fact, I can

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see no reason why members can't see

the documents in the reference

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library and why it can't be

published. I'm not sure if I can

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reveal this bit but in the

footnotes, many of the footnotes,

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from the office of National is to do

so it is in the public domain in any

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event. -- Office of National

Statistics. Having undertaken the

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biggest reorganisation in the NHS

the government has embarked on

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another one with transformational

plans. They now intend to bring

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forward regulations to support the

setting up of accountable care

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organisations, an idea imported from

the United States. It's not clear

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how the ACOs will be accountable to

the public and what level of private

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sector involvement there will be and

what implications that will be for

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NHS staff. We've had CCG 's, STP 's,

ACOs, it's becoming an anachronism

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of incompetence from this

government. The Shadow Secretary of

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State for help has written to the

leader to ask whether the

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regulations will be published in the

New Year. Can I ask is that the

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government's intention to do so and

if so when? Can the leader reassure

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the House there will be adequate

time for a debate and vote? Again

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we've got a government that cannot

make a decision. We've got a new

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industrial strategy but made a

decision on the Swansea tidal

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lagoon. There was a letter on the

20th of November signed by 100

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businesses. We've had adjournment

debates from members on our side,

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we've had oral questions, written

questions on the latest one says a

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decision will be made in due course.

Could the Leader of the House please

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say what that means, or is it the

case the government don't want to

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make an investment in Labour Wales?

Turning to the motion of the

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opposition day and how the

information has been dealt with,

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it's crucial for us, the opposition

and members of Parliament to hold

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the government to account. We've got

a situation where the Leader of the

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House said on the 26th of October

that the relevant Minister will

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respond to opposition Day motion is

no later than 12 weeks. There was a

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point of order last week by my

honourable friend the shadows

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negative state of education. She

said she received a response on the

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tuition fee motion that had no

bearing on the motion. It was done

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in a written statement on the last

day so it didn't give us an

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opportunity to question the Minister

on that. Could the Leader of the

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House meet with me and perhaps

discuss with the House authorities

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how we can take this forward and

have proper information so that we

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can hold the government to account

which is what our job is. Mr

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Speaker, I fail to mention

previously the passing away of Jimmy

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Hurd MP. He was a good servant of

this House, he was chairman of the

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European scrutiny select committee

and the panel of chairs for 14

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years. He served this House well. I

want to honour his memory just as

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I've joined the Leader of the House

in honouring the memory of those who

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died at Grenfell Tower. There was a

memorial yesterday which you

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attended and there will be a

memorial in St Paul's Cathedral

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today attended by the Prime Minister

and the Leader of the Opposition.

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The shadow Housing Minister has

asked the Prime Minister why, when

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she said I have fixed deadline of

three weeks everyone affected to be

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found a home nearby, but that hasn't

taken place. Mr Speaker, as you let

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the hammock candle yesterday in

Speaker 's house, candles will be

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lit to remember the innocent dead at

St Paul's which will take place any

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minute now -- Hannukah candle.

One-minute people watching TV or

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doing their homework, the next

minute they are dead. The light has

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gone out of their lives but the

flame of remembrance will continue

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to burn as we remember them today

and always.

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Thank you Mr Speaker and certainly I

share in the great tribute from the

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lady opposite to those who suffered

in the Grenfell Tower tragedy. Our

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thoughts with them today and all the

time. The government has been

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committed in the last six months,

all the way through, that the

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families and survivors will have

needs taken care of. Something the

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government remains committed to. I

also want to pay tribute to Jamie

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Hood, a great servant to the house.

The honourable lady asks about the

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scheduling of the debate on

restoration, she will be were a

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number of representations have been

made from members across both sides

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of the house. Looking into options

other than those before the debate

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to take place. A number of

priorities to consider. We are

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listening to representation being

made on the debate. Future of

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business will continue to be

announced in the usual way. The

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honourable lady asks about the issue

of the shifting committee. I want to

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pay tribute to my honourable friend,

proposing amendments that I have

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been happy to confirm I will propose

changes to standing orders once the

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bill has received Royal assent. The

honourable lady asks about viewing

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the analysis and you yourself have

just confirmed that after taking

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advice from the Brexit select

committee you are satisfied that

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they are satisfied, this is a very

important point. Addressing the

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major challenges facing the hills

give challenge system. Improving

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integration. I think we can all

agree, it is vital that we focus on

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making the most productive use, out

of the resources available. On the

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subject of opposition day debates,

when a motion has been approved by

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the house, the relevant Minister

will respond to the resolution by

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making a statement no more than 12

weeks after the debate.

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We will be able to open any actions

that have been taken. It is a very

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complex and the track record is

excellent, 26% of electricity

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derived from renewables, improving

low carbon and electricity resources

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should not be ignored. I just want

to reiterate that we are working

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closely with the Royal Borough of

Kensington and Chelsea to provide

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that we can provide social housing.

It may be sensible to have another

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Grenfell Tower United meeting in six

months. We will not forget what we

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heard this week, so we can learn

more from those who have life after

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death. Remembering the Foreign

Secretary's visit to Iran, it could

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be a good idea that the relevant

ministers look back into deportation

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from this country and ask if it is

seriously sensible to try to expel

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somebody who has been living here

for most of their life, after

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criminal attack has lost hands and

feet. And also to review the case,

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when someone who has not lived in

Ghana for more than a year since he

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was four. Up for deportation.

The

only thing missing in that

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fascinating essay, request for a

statement or debate.

Next week.

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Referred to the first week back.

Zero statement or debate. It is not

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beyond the competence. Can I gently

say to other members, if they wish

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to imitate the right honourable

member, this should not seek to

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imitate him in length today.

Thank

you Mr Speaker. I absolutely share

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my right honourable friend's for the

review of the experience of

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survivors six months on from today.

With regards to his point on

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deportation I am not aware of the

specific keys but Foreign Office

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ministers will discuss those with.

Can I thank the leader of the house

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for announcing next week, and thank

you for the helpful statement and I

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fully appreciate but in the wider

context something has to change. We

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have to get back onto an even keel,

these difficulties are down to the

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fact that these governments are not

prepared to participate fully in the

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Democratic stature is of this house.

We have satisfactory, contrary to

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all democratic instincts, badly

letting down constituents that we

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represent and serve. When government

diminish, bad start happens and bad

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stuff happens in the context of

this. It has to stop. Return the

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house to the conditions prior to the

last election, diminish democracy we

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can proud of. I know it is party

season, but today few site the

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morning after the night before. You

can almost feel the groggy heads,

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defeat for Brexit plans. Hopefully

this is going to be the first steps

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of the brakes on sanity. I think one

of the lessons from last night has

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to be that it is conclusive that you

have cross-party talks across the

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house about the Brexit process and

that must involve the democratic

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assemblies across the United

Kingdom. Mr Speaker, can we have a

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debate on trading standards. I think

the feeling in Scotland is that we

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have been sold a Tory pup. Scottish

Conservative MPs said they would

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come down here, proudly and

defiantly, taking on the Scottish

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Government. Nothing other than the

conservative lobby for this. Down to

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the whip. Scotland is demanding the

money back. If we cannot get the

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money back, can we at least have

these honourable gentleman replaced

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by champions for Scotland who will

act for the entries in this house.

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Thank you Mr Speaker. The honourable

gentleman is obviously on good form

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this morning. He made a slip up,

calling my friends, gentlemen. A

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lady or two among them. I take that

seriously. They make an enormous

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contribution to the constituencies

in Scotland. Regularly attending

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this, so that they can't raise

particular issues. I encourage them

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to do that. The honourable gentleman

does not mention the two billion

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additional funding for Scotland that

was announced by the Chancellor in

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the recent budget that should be a

very good boost to Scottish

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finances. That should actually

enable the Scottish Government not

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to take the step of making Scotland

the most highly taxed part of the

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United Kingdom. Also raising the

question of democracy and listening.

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He will be aware... In this place we

have had countless opportunities to

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discuss Briggs, the government has

been listening and I myself have

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taken part in a number of

discussions about how we can more

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carefully accommodate the views of

this house, we have been listening

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carefully and I have been delighted

to accommodate the effort and

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procedures of the committee,

something that the house was keen to

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see. We have had eight hours of

protected debate every day, eight

0:24:510:25:00

days of the committee. Exhaustively

looking at every aspect. This is

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certainly not evidence of a failure

to communicate or engage. The

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government is listening and we are

keen to engage across the house.

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That is good to continue to be the

case as we seek to leave the

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European Union with a good deal for

all parts of the native kingdom. --

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United.

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Before the debate announced, will

she reflect on the fact that many of

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Winston Churchill's greatest war

time speeches, were made from Church

0:25:310:25:37

House. Would she consider that would

be an appropriate location?

Well...

0:25:370:25:47

My honourable friend will no doubt

want to take part in the debate on

0:25:470:25:53

the question of restoration but it

is vital that we focus on the key

0:25:530:25:58

issues. Protecting the Paris for

future generations. It is a heritage

0:25:580:26:07

site, 1 million visitors every year.

The future is paramount. So to,

0:26:070:26:13

costs to taxpayers. We absolutely

have to focus on the best value for

0:26:130:26:17

money that we can.

Can I thank the

leader of the house for the business

0:26:170:26:24

statement, and also for the meeting

that she had with me last week to

0:26:240:26:28

discuss a range of issues. Can I as

again for early notice of any time

0:26:280:26:36

allocation for the backbench

business committee for January so

0:26:360:26:38

that members can have ample notice

for times. How the chamber and

0:26:380:26:44

Westminster Hall. A little gripe...

The backbench business committee has

0:26:440:26:50

a membership of eight. Usually,

four. Can I ask that we actually

0:26:500:27:03

looked at that in standing orders.

Possibly a similar forum, could she

0:27:030:27:14

possibly have a word with her

colleague, with the committee of

0:27:140:27:18

selection and ask him not to pick

members of the backbench business

0:27:180:27:25

committee for the statutory

instrument committee at the same

0:27:250:27:27

time.

I am always very happy to

address representations from the

0:27:270:27:34

honourable gentleman. I will look

into the point that he has

0:27:340:27:37

mentioned.

Last week, the general

electorate announced the loss of

0:27:370:27:48

1000 jobs in my constituency and

could we have a statement from the

0:27:480:27:54

government both on the support that

will be provided to those trained

0:27:540:28:02

and excellent workers to find other

work but also to show how the United

0:28:020:28:06

Kingdom government will support

power engineering saw that it can

0:28:060:28:11

maintain and grow the position in

research, manufacturing and export?

0:28:110:28:18

I am very sorry to hear of these

potential losses. My honourable

0:28:180:28:24

friend is absolutely correct to

support constituents. The government

0:28:240:28:27

meets with the general electorate to

discuss business and November

0:28:270:28:31

announced plans for the global

restructuring. Consultation under

0:28:310:28:34

way on the redundancies and the

timescale is yet to be announced.

0:28:340:28:39

The government stands ready to

support anyone who loses their job

0:28:390:28:45

through the DWP rapid response

service.

I want to raise the issue

0:28:450:28:51

of rough sleeping. My constituents

are contacting me, very concerned

0:28:510:28:57

especially in this weather weather

rapid rise of people sleeping on the

0:28:570:29:04

streets. Hull council have done good

work to prevent 500 cases of

0:29:040:29:10

homelessness but a 75% increase and

I wanted to know if we can get the

0:29:100:29:15

government debate on why it has

since 2010 rough sleeping has

0:29:150:29:21

doubled in this country,

particularly the last year.

0:29:210:29:26

The honourable lady is right to

raise the subject. It is extremely

0:29:260:29:31

disturbing to see anyone sleeping

rough in our country. The government

0:29:310:29:36

is investing a significant sum to

eliminate rough sleeping altogether

0:29:360:29:43

by 2027 but the Harvard by 2022.

Certainly in my own area, the Hope

0:29:430:29:52

centre in Northampton is doing

excellent work as are so many

0:29:520:29:55

homeless charities around the

country to ensure that during this

0:29:550:29:59

cold patch nobody is having to sleep

rough. I shared the honourable

0:29:590:30:02

lady's concern and she may wish to

seek a backbench debate to discuss

0:30:020:30:08

this concerning issue.

Following on

from my colleague, this week to bury

0:30:080:30:17

vulnerable people were driven from

Taunton Deane and left in Bridgwater

0:30:170:30:21

on an excuse which I find

unacceptable in the 21st century.

0:30:210:30:25

They unfortunately were left to

tonight 's fending for themselves

0:30:250:30:28

and a tragedy could have occurred.

If it wasn't very kind people we

0:30:280:30:34

would have had a nightmare on our

hands. Can I follow my Labour

0:30:340:30:37

colleagues to say can we please have

a debate in this House and homeless

0:30:370:30:41

people and people who are vulnerable

in our society. Can we please have a

0:30:410:30:46

debate in government time to talk

about this.

Just before the Leader

0:30:460:30:53

of the House responds I listened

most attentively to what the

0:30:530:30:55

honourable gentleman said, but can I

just very politely say to him that

0:30:550:31:01

if he is going to refer to another

honourable member's constituency it

0:31:010:31:06

would be a courtesy to notify that

member in advance. That's all I want

0:31:060:31:12

to say. Matters should be sorted out

between colleagues but I think that

0:31:120:31:15

that is what I would call a point of

courtesy rather than a point of

0:31:150:31:19

order.

I completely share the

concern about homelessness and rough

0:31:190:31:30

sleeping. It is something that is a

huge worry across the House and died

0:31:300:31:35

in courage all members to consider

combining to have a backbench debate

0:31:350:31:41

on the subject. We have implemented

the Homelessness Reduction Act.

0:31:410:31:46

We've allocated £550 million to

tackle homelessness and Rob sleeping

0:31:460:31:51

through to 2020 and also 10 million

of funding to support eight new

0:31:510:31:57

social impact project so we can give

targeted support of the most

0:31:570:32:00

difficult issues around rough

sleeping.

I'm grateful to the Leader

0:32:000:32:06

of the House that she is thinking

about moving the date of the debate

0:32:060:32:09

because it is better not to have it

on a Thursday. Can I ask whether we

0:32:090:32:12

can have a debate on Ipsa,

specifically because of the way I

0:32:120:32:19

will stop treated. Most employers

bring forward the December staff and

0:32:190:32:25

salary payment before Christmas. Why

can't Ipsa do that?

The honourable

0:32:250:32:32

gentleman raises a very interesting

point which I am happy to look into

0:32:320:32:36

and his behalf.

0:32:360:32:46

Mr Speaker, East Worthing will be

briefer than West Worthing. When we

0:32:460:32:51

going to have a debate on the

parlous state of children's social

0:32:510:32:56

care?

My honourable friend and I

share a deep interest in the plight

0:32:560:33:10

of the earliest years and the

importance of secure early

0:33:100:33:14

attachment for the future mental and

emotional well-being of children,

0:33:140:33:17

right the way through their lives. I

certainly and always happy to

0:33:170:33:24

support in his efforts to achieve

debates in this House on that

0:33:240:33:26

subject.

I have details here from

Norfolk police of regular occasions

0:33:260:33:36

when people are held unlawfully by

the police while they are waiting

0:33:360:33:41

for mental health services to

respond. In one case someone was

0:33:410:33:45

detained for 68 hours in police

custody. We know this is now

0:33:450:33:48

happening around the country quite

readily. Will the Leader of the

0:33:480:33:55

House arrange for the Health

Secretary to make a statement to

0:33:550:33:59

this House? It is surely intolerable

that the police are put into a

0:33:590:34:03

position where they are having to

detain people unlawfully because of

0:34:030:34:07

failures of mental health services.

Well, what I can say to the

0:34:070:34:17

gentleman is the government has

shown a huge commitment to mental

0:34:170:34:22

health services. I share his concern

about the specific point he raises

0:34:220:34:27

and I do encourage him to try and

attend health questions next Tuesday

0:34:270:34:31

where he will get the opportunity to

ask ministers directly.

Thank you Mr

0:34:310:34:38

Speaker for your words about the

courtesies of this House and the way

0:34:380:34:41

we should conduct ourselves. I

wanted to say that last week I met

0:34:410:34:45

with the Taunton Chamber of Commerce

and most of the members of that

0:34:450:34:48

chamber are small and medium-sized

businesses and are the backbone of

0:34:480:34:52

our thriving economy in Taunton and

Wellington. Enabling them to grow is

0:34:520:34:57

really important as we move forward,

especially with Brexit. Could we

0:34:570:35:00

have a debate on how to benefit this

sector in the south-west with

0:35:000:35:08

specific reference on how to unlock

opportunities through the government

0:35:080:35:12

is commendable industrial strategy?

I totally agree with my honourable

0:35:120:35:18

friend. SME's are the lifeblood of

our economy and they deserve our

0:35:180:35:23

praise and support. Taunton Chamber

of Commerce are putting some

0:35:230:35:26

incredibly smart measures in place

to support local businesses and I

0:35:260:35:30

congratulate them for that. Our

industrial strategy will support

0:35:300:35:34

businesses. The retail sector will

benefit from business rate relief,

0:35:340:35:38

cutting £10 billion of red tape and

improving access to finance.

0:35:380:35:45

LAUGHTER

Thank you Mr Speaker. Let

me tell the House about my

0:35:450:36:01

constituent. He wasn't allowed to

take breaks. He was then refused

0:36:010:36:12

annual leave and was prevented from

carrying annual leave over. Due to

0:36:120:36:17

the tribunal fees he wasn't able to

take them to court. I've managed to

0:36:170:36:23

get him some money back but they

haven't engaged in any meaningful

0:36:230:36:27

way with myself to get him full

compensation. Can I get a statement

0:36:270:36:32

confirming the Leader of the House

will review how they treat employees

0:36:320:36:36

and advise how I can get that

settlement back?

As he often does

0:36:360:36:43

the honourable gentleman raises a

very serious constituency issue and

0:36:430:36:46

I recommend to him that he seeks an

adjournment debate so he can address

0:36:460:36:50

this directly with ministers.

This

evening I'll be joining the upfield

0:36:500:36:58

Chamber of Commerce that their

Christmas dinner celebrating small

0:36:580:37:01

businesses across my constituency

providing opportunity and security.

0:37:010:37:06

In fact, since 2010 1000 jobs have

been created every day. Will the

0:37:060:37:12

Leader of the House provide time for

debate on the government's success

0:37:120:37:16

in employment?

Well, I'm very

pleased to join my honourable friend

0:37:160:37:23

in welcoming the latest employment

figures and in congratulating

0:37:230:37:28

upfield Chamber of Commerce that the

work they do to support businesses.

0:37:280:37:33

There are 325,000 more people in

work than this time last year. Youth

0:37:330:37:37

unemployment is down 416,000 since

2010. Figures I'm sure the whole

0:37:370:37:43

house will welcome.

Last night we

had the unedifying sight of a

0:37:430:37:51

government Minister frantically

coming to the dispatch box to give

0:37:510:37:53

concessions to his own backbenchers

to push through government policy.

0:37:530:37:56

Last week we had clause 11 of the EU

Withdrawal Bill where many of the

0:37:560:38:01

backbenches on the government side

said it was deficient but amendments

0:38:010:38:04

were brought forward. Can we have a

statement or debate when the

0:38:040:38:08

government will bring forward

amendments to crawl seven which her

0:38:080:38:11

side says is deficient in the Bill?

-- clause seven.

The honourable

0:38:110:38:16

gentleman will be aware that they

ate as I've just announced of the EU

0:38:160:38:22

Withdrawal Bill will be debated next

week so he may wish to raise his

0:38:220:38:25

point Ben -- day eight will be

debated next week the whole house

0:38:250:38:31

will agree constituency thought to

be equalised but the departure.

--

0:38:310:38:35

we will be cutting the cost of

governance. Can she make sure any

0:38:350:38:39

private members Bill coming along

that my correct this debate gets the

0:38:390:38:44

money billet needs? -- Bill that it

needs.

I will look closely at what

0:38:440:38:54

might honourable friend suggests.

Can if I may declare an interest. I

0:38:540:39:05

travel to Bangladesh to see the

Rohingya refugee camps. Can I ask

0:39:050:39:10

the Leader of the House, can we have

a debate on the situation of the

0:39:100:39:14

Rohingya? I know there have been a

number of debates focusing on the

0:39:140:39:17

crisis as people fled Myanmar. The

situation of 800,000 people living

0:39:170:39:24

in camps and 36,000 unaccompanied

children, 30,000 women who have been

0:39:240:39:29

raped and are now pregnant, the need

for clean water, the need for

0:39:290:39:33

refugees, we need to know what the

ongoing commitment about our

0:39:330:39:37

government and ministers will be to

help the plight of the Rohingya.

0:39:370:39:43

Festival I commend the honourable

gentleman who are going to see fit

0:39:430:39:46

himself, I know a number of

honourable members from all sides of

0:39:460:39:50

the House have been to lend their

own personal support and I commend

0:39:500:39:54

all of them for that. It is a

harrowing case. We've had three

0:39:540:39:58

debates and questions on this

subject in September and I know the

0:39:580:40:02

government is watching it incredibly

closely. My right honourable friend

0:40:020:40:07

the International Development

Secretary has announced further UK

0:40:070:40:09

aid of £12 million to try and help

support the Rohingya people,

0:40:090:40:14

bringing the UK's total support of

£59 million. I also want to commend

0:40:140:40:18

the generosity of the British people

who have personally contributed

0:40:180:40:24

millions of pounds to helping

support the plight of the Rohingya

0:40:240:40:26

people.

According to the latest

Office of National Statistics

0:40:260:40:38

figures, unemployment in Crawley has

reduced by 59% since 2010. Can we

0:40:380:40:44

have a debate early in the New Year

and continuing economic policies

0:40:440:40:48

that increase employment and

therefore more revenue for our

0:40:480:40:52

important public services?

I'm

delighted to hear about the

0:40:520:40:57

employment statistics in my

honourable friend's constituency. I

0:40:570:41:02

know he shares my enthusiasm for the

fact employment is up more than 3

0:41:020:41:07

million since 2010. That's more

people than ever before with these

0:41:070:41:10

security of a pay packet to support

themselves and their families.

The

0:41:100:41:19

government's draft ombudsman Bill is

of great interest to many of my

0:41:190:41:21

constituents who are victims to the

attacks of the technology pension

0:41:210:41:26

scheme which cannot be investigated

due to a loophole in the law. Will

0:41:260:41:29

the leader find the time for this

important Bill to come to the House

0:41:290:41:33

in the New Year?

The honourable lady

will be aware that the government

0:41:330:41:39

considers carefully all of the

potential different bills and tries

0:41:390:41:44

to accommodate as far as possible

those important bills that improve

0:41:440:41:49

the lives of all of our

constituents. She raises an

0:41:490:41:52

important issue and I will look at

it.

Can we have a debate in this

0:41:520:41:58

House and very damaging policies

being pursued by the SNP with regard

0:41:580:42:02

to taxation which will have a huge

impact on my constituents and across

0:42:020:42:08

Scotland? Does my right honourable

friend agree with me that the SNP

0:42:080:42:14

should stick with their manifesto

commitment of not raising the basic

0:42:140:42:17

rate of income tax which they went

to the Scottish public with, to stop

0:42:170:42:23

Scotland being the highest taxed

part of the UK?

My honourable friend

0:42:230:42:29

continues to be a champion for his

constituents and he's absolutely

0:42:290:42:35

right to raise his concerns. Income

tax powers were an important part of

0:42:350:42:39

the Smith commission recommendations

and we have devolved them through

0:42:390:42:42

the Scotland Act of 2016. It does

say a lot about the priorities of

0:42:420:42:47

the Scottish Government that within

just a year of having these powers

0:42:470:42:51

they are threatening to renege on a

manifesto commitment. As I said

0:42:510:42:55

earlier, it would be a great shame

that if Scotland were to become the

0:42:550:43:00

highest taxed part of the UK.

Mr

Speaker, does the Leader of the

0:43:000:43:09

House understand that 1,300,000

people will be killed this year by

0:43:090:43:14

road death? Does she understand also

that this week we have had global

0:43:140:43:20

legislators from all over the world

in this Parliament including the

0:43:200:43:24

Speaker of the Moldovan Parliament

here debating the auspices of the

0:43:240:43:30

zero foundation that we will

actually tackle this? It's the

0:43:300:43:34

greatest epidemic of our time, can

we have a debate on it in the New

0:43:340:43:38

Year?

I'm certainly aware that the

government have tried hard to insert

0:43:380:43:50

year -- ensure that we reduce

incidence of road traffic accidents

0:43:500:43:53

and tried to provide all drivers

with the right know-how to be able

0:43:530:43:56

to drive safely and carefully. He

will be aware of legislation coming

0:43:560:44:01

forward for driverless vehicles and

that is an opportunity to improve

0:44:010:44:05

road safety. But nevertheless he may

well wish to seek an adjournment

0:44:050:44:11

debate so you can discuss the

specific and good work of the

0:44:110:44:14

organisation he mentions.

Thank you.

The government is committed to

0:44:140:44:19

helping at least another 11 million

children in the poorest countries

0:44:190:44:23

get a decent education by 2020. Will

the leader find the time to hold a

0:44:230:44:29

debate on the importance of

investing in education as a means to

0:44:290:44:32

helping children out of poverty?

0:44:320:44:40

My honourable friend raises

something the Government is

0:44:400:44:42

extremely proud of and that is our

efforts at international aid support

0:44:420:44:47

all young people everywhere to get a

decent education and I do encourage

0:44:470:44:52

him to seek an adjournment debate or

perhaps a backbench debate so all

0:44:520:44:57

colleagues can celebrate the

contribution of the UK people

0:44:570:45:00

towards ensuring education for all.

With an estimated 1400 people with

0:45:000:45:09

dementia stuck in hospital on

Christmas Day, dementia patients

0:45:090:45:13

will make up a quarter of people who

will spend this Christmas Day in

0:45:130:45:17

hospital because of delays in

finding them care. The Alzheimer

0:45:170:45:22

Society described hospital wards as

being turned into waiting rooms...

I

0:45:220:45:33

think we all share in the desire to

see, particularly at Christmas, as

0:45:330:45:38

many people as possible receiving

the right sort of care and

0:45:380:45:42

protection and also some company. I

think the issue of loneliness is

0:45:420:45:47

also something that's been raised in

this chamber a great deal. We all

0:45:470:45:52

know that the NHS faces increased

pressures at wintertime and that's

0:45:520:45:56

why we have put in place an extra

£335 million on top of the

0:45:560:46:02

previously announced 100 million for

A&E departments. Beds have been

0:46:020:46:10

freed up since February and areas

continue to work to increase that

0:46:100:46:15

number to 3000 extra beds over the

winter period. Really important for

0:46:150:46:20

those who find themselves in

hospital during the Christmas

0:46:200:46:22

period.

Will the Leader of the House

join me in congratulating the Cancer

0:46:220:46:34

Research UK committee for launching

Cancer Research UK hat and scarf.

0:46:340:46:41

Some colleagues are in the gallery

today showing off the wonderful

0:46:410:46:45

staff. Will the leader consider

calling a debate on the excellent

0:46:450:46:53

work of charities in fighting cancer

and will the right honourable friend

0:46:530:46:55

agree with me it is a fetching item

that will no doubt raise lots of

0:46:550:47:02

money for Cancer Research UK?

By

sheer coincidence, this morning I

0:47:020:47:08

decided to wear a pink jacket, and

when my honourable friend presented

0:47:080:47:12

me with one of these wonderful

scarves that Elaine and her

0:47:120:47:17

colleagues have produced for Cancer

Research UK I was absolutely

0:47:170:47:21

delighted to find the chill in this

chamber could be offset by something

0:47:210:47:26

warm from Scotland. I'm absolutely

delighted with the contribution of

0:47:260:47:30

all of those volunteers to come

Syriza, having had family members

0:47:300:47:36

suffer from this terrible disease

myself. We should all celebrate the

0:47:360:47:40

excellent work of volunteers.

If I

had known of the intention of the

0:47:400:47:46

honourable gentleman in advance and

of the sartorial plans of the Leader

0:47:460:47:50

of the House, I would myself have

worn a pink tie of which I'm proud

0:47:500:47:54

to say I have several. Nevertheless

the important point is the great

0:47:540:48:00

cause has been eloquently

highlighted and that is what this

0:48:000:48:02

place exists to do.

Could she asked

the Department for Work and Pensions

0:48:020:48:13

to come before the House to talk

about personal independence

0:48:130:48:22

payments. I had a case of a lady

recently who had cancer which has

0:48:220:48:27

had life changing effects on Earth.

When I challenged the case, they

0:48:270:48:31

said it had been below standard. Can

she ask them to come urgently and

0:48:310:48:38

make a statement?

The honourable

gentleman raises concerning case and

0:48:380:48:44

I'm sure ministers would be happy to

talk to him about this. In fact if

0:48:440:48:49

he wants to e-mail me I can take it

up on his behalf but I would say

0:48:490:48:53

this Government has been committed

to helping those with disabilities

0:48:530:48:57

to take control of their own care

and to be able to be funded to meet

0:48:570:49:02

their own needs and also to help

them get into work, which for many

0:49:020:49:06

people gives them the opportunity to

contribute and have the

0:49:060:49:11

self-confidence that arises from

being able to work within their

0:49:110:49:14

capability to do so.

On one of the

and busiest Saturdays in the run-up

0:49:140:49:20

to Christmas in Totnes, local

activists decided to parade with a

0:49:200:49:28

real coffin and leave a large

carefully constructed model of a

0:49:280:49:34

coffin at my constituency office.

Does the Leader of the House feel,

0:49:340:49:38

particularly in light of the report

on intimidation in public life, this

0:49:380:49:43

overstepped the line of decency and

there are real dangers in using the

0:49:430:49:48

imagery of death directed against

individuals to whip up hatred and

0:49:480:49:51

most importantly of all this kind of

thing deters good candidates from

0:49:510:49:56

applying for public life.

Yes, I was

disgusted, as I'm sure all

0:49:560:50:04

honourable and right honourable

members work to hear about the awful

0:50:040:50:08

experience of my honourable friend,

and really high at the time texted

0:50:080:50:13

heard to say I hope she was OK. That

must have been terrifying, truly

0:50:130:50:18

horrible. We should all condemn it

and call it out wherever we see this

0:50:180:50:23

kind of behaviour. I think the

report into the abuse and

0:50:230:50:29

intimidation of candidates

highlights that this is not a simple

0:50:290:50:32

matter of holding politicians to

account. This goes far beyond that

0:50:320:50:39

and it will be a deterrent to seeing

the calibre of candidates we want so

0:50:390:50:47

we all combine in condemning that

action against my friend.

Can the

0:50:470:50:57

Minister arrange for a debate in

Government time, and don't refer me

0:50:570:51:03

for an adjournment debate, on the

impact of Brexit on the national

0:51:030:51:07

health service and the threat of

privatisation?

Since this September,

0:51:070:51:19

the Department for exiting the EU

has answered departmental questions

0:51:190:51:22

on three occasions including just

before now. They have made several

0:51:220:51:26

oral statements. Deputy ministers

have appeared before the select

0:51:260:51:31

committee on three occasions and

that's in addition to the many hours

0:51:310:51:38

we have already spent discussing

legislation and we will of course be

0:51:380:51:41

discussing further legislation in

great detail over the next 18 months

0:51:410:51:45

so I'm sure the honourable gentleman

will have ample opportunity to raise

0:51:450:51:49

his specific interests.

Can we have

a debate on government time with

0:51:490:51:56

relation to dementia? Many members

in this House have family members

0:51:560:52:01

who suffer from this wicked and

cruel disease. Can we have a debate

0:52:010:52:05

where we look at not just the

disease itself, but the social care

0:52:050:52:09

system, the health service and all

other aspects of society that

0:52:090:52:13

touches on dementia and hopefully

let's take this action forward.

My

0:52:130:52:19

honourable friend raises an issue

that is of concern to all of us in

0:52:190:52:23

our constituencies and often also in

our families and it's certainly

0:52:230:52:27

something that is an increasing

problem in the UK and across the

0:52:270:52:31

world and something we should

regularly discuss so I do encourage

0:52:310:52:34

him to seek perhaps a backbench

debate on that subject so we can

0:52:340:52:38

look at exactly what further

measures can be taken to ensure we

0:52:380:52:41

do the best we can for those

suffering from dementia and their

0:52:410:52:45

families and friends.

As part of the

work of the cross-party commission,

0:52:450:52:53

looking into the root causes of

youth violence, this week we heard

0:52:530:52:56

from a panel of experts about the

public health approach to reducing

0:52:560:53:02

violence and the evidence -based

results they have achieved. Can we

0:53:020:53:06

have a debate on this extremely

important issue?

The honourable lady

0:53:060:53:13

has worked hard on this issue and I

commend her for that and I do

0:53:130:53:17

encourage her to seek an adjournment

debate on the subject. I'm sure it

0:53:170:53:21

would be of interest to a great

number of members.

On Tuesday night

0:53:210:53:26

members from across the House

attended the Grenfell United meeting

0:53:260:53:30

on which you made a deeply emotional

and moving introduction. But the

0:53:300:53:39

reality is that most survivors gave

stories that are truly harrowing.

0:53:390:53:44

The reality is that this Christmas

most of those survivors will still

0:53:440:53:49

be in hotels or bed and breakfast

accommodation. Equally, the people

0:53:490:53:57

of this country have very willingly

parted with huge amounts of money in

0:53:570:54:03

compensation for those victims. The

money can't bring their relatives

0:54:030:54:07

back but that money does not appear

to be going and reaching the victims

0:54:070:54:11

and those people last ill in

temporary housing. So could we have

0:54:110:54:17

two statements, Mr Speaker, one from

the Secretary of State on the

0:54:170:54:21

progress of rehousing the survivors,

but also from the Secretary of State

0:54:210:54:29

for Culture, Media and Sport who are

responsible I understand for the

0:54:290:54:32

money being distributed to the

victims on where the money is going

0:54:320:54:34

and how it will reach the victims so

they can live their lives at least

0:54:340:54:39

in some degree of comfort.

My

honourable friend raises some very

0:54:390:54:48

important points and I will very

happily go away and discuss that

0:54:480:54:52

with our honourable friends in the

DCLG. Latest figures I have are that

0:54:520:55:03

142 of the 151 households of

accepted an offer of either

0:55:030:55:09

temporary or permanent

accommodation, 99 of these have

0:55:090:55:12

moved in and of which 54 households

have moved into temporary

0:55:120:55:18

accommodation and 45 into permanent

accommodation. But I think is all

0:55:180:55:22

honourable members will know and

appreciate, we can move only at the

0:55:220:55:27

pace that those survivors wish to go

out and it's a very difficult area

0:55:270:55:32

and nobody wants to force anybody to

move at a pace they are

0:55:320:55:37

uncomfortable with. I hope all

honourable members will rest assured

0:55:370:55:41

the Government is utterly determined

to provide the right level of

0:55:410:55:46

support and care for all those who

are still very much suffering at the

0:55:460:55:51

present time.

Is it possible, given

the ongoing problems with the

0:55:510:55:58

roll-out, that we can have a

statement or an urgent debate on

0:55:580:56:03

Universal Credit? There's a family

in my constituency who were told to

0:56:030:56:08

claim Universal Credit and shut down

their child tax credit claim. That

0:56:080:56:13

was the wrong advice as they had

more than two children. They are now

0:56:130:56:18

being told to claim job-seeker's

allowance which HMRC won't backdate

0:56:180:56:24

or reinstate their tax credits. So

they are living on less than £1 60

0:56:240:56:30

per day. Given the UN's target of

nobody should be below two dollars

0:56:300:56:36

per day, how does that sit with the

Government's anti-poverty strategy?

0:56:360:56:42

The honourable gentleman raises a

very concerning constituency matter.

0:56:420:56:49

He may well wish to raise that

specific point on Monday. On

0:56:490:56:54

Universal Credit more generally, the

Government really has listened, this

0:56:540:56:59

is an attempt to ensure that

Universal Credit provides a good

0:56:590:57:04

solution for people that combines

six PVS benefits into one, that

0:57:040:57:09

improves access to childcare -- six

previous benefits into one, it

0:57:090:57:15

enables them to keep more of what

they earn as they move into work.

0:57:150:57:20

They can get 100% of their first

payment up front if they need to and

0:57:200:57:25

return it over 12 months. We have

introduced an overlap for those

0:57:250:57:28

already receiving housing benefit to

ensure a smooth transition onto the

0:57:280:57:33

new system, and really importantly

Universal Credit is expected to

0:57:330:57:37

boost employment by 250,000. Because

it is a simpler system that makes

0:57:370:57:44

sure work always pays.

A family run

high street shop in my constituency

0:57:440:57:56

recently received national and

international notoriety by taking on

0:57:560:58:00

the big hitting supermarkets and

produced the ultimate heart-warming

0:58:000:58:04

Christmas advert for the production

cost of just £7. I strongly

0:58:040:58:10

recommend all members of this House

to go online and look at it. But can

0:58:100:58:14

I ask my right honourable friend if

we can have a debate on how we

0:58:140:58:19

promote our independent high-street

shops, showing that through sheer

0:58:190:58:24

imagination and ingenuity, David

really can't take on Goliath.

I

0:58:240:58:30

congratulate Harford hardware on

their Christmas advert. It just goes

0:58:300:58:33

to show the kind of entrepreneurial

spirit in our businesses. We aim to

0:58:330:58:41

support businesses like this to

prosper and grow so they can compete

0:58:410:58:44

with the likes of Moz the monster

with their own successful Christmas

0:58:440:58:52

campaigns.

My constituent Matthew

pounder was served an eviction

0:58:520:58:56

notice when he chose to switch to a

month by month contract rather than

0:58:560:59:00

sign up to a 12 month tenancy. He

later discovered letting agents.

0:59:000:59:06

Told his landlords Matthew wanted to

leave the property. The agents try

0:59:060:59:10

to force him out of the home in

order to profit from the fees of a

0:59:100:59:14

new tenancy. Can we look at how we

can strengthen regulations on how to

0:59:140:59:20

protect renters.

0:59:200:59:23

Again, the honourable gentleman

raises an important and concerning

0:59:230:59:27

case. As I've mentioned there are

DWP questions on Monday. It may be

0:59:270:59:33

tricky but he may find a way to be

able to raise the question there.

0:59:330:59:38

More generally what I would say to

the honourable gentleman is the

0:59:380:59:41

government is looking at measures to

protect rental tenants better. The

0:59:410:59:46

draft measures coming forward and

consultations and wait to try and

0:59:460:59:50

ensure that people in rented

accommodation have protected

0:59:500:59:53

tenancies and more security in the

longevity of their ability to remain

0:59:530:59:57

in their home.

Good news, more

people are getting on their bike. In

0:59:571:00:07

my constituency for work or leisure.

That's a good thing because it's

1:00:071:00:12

very polluted in my constituency.

But a number of my constituents have

1:00:121:00:17

contacted me about shared spaces and

the danger of pedestrians mixing

1:00:171:00:21

with cyclists and the impact on

people with impaired vision. Could

1:00:211:00:25

the Leader of the House find time

for a debate on this safety issue?

I

1:00:251:00:32

know my honourable friend always

speaks up for her constituents and

1:00:321:00:35

particularly she is concerned about

congestion and a big fan of cycling

1:00:351:00:39

so I commend her for that. She's

right to raise the issue of sharing

1:00:391:00:45

pavements between cyclists and

pedestrians and I encourage her to

1:00:451:00:48

seek an adjournment debate so she

can talk about the specific concerns

1:00:481:00:51

she has.

I've recently been

contacted by five constituents who

1:00:511:00:57

have told me that the pain infusions

they need are being stopped because

1:00:571:01:03

of government cuts to East Riding

CCG. Please can we have an urgent

1:01:031:01:07

debate on the levels of funding for

the CCGs to provide therapeutic care

1:01:071:01:13

so these people can continue to have

some quality of life?

What I can say

1:01:131:01:19

is that NHS funding will be over

half £1 trillion from 2015 to 2020.

1:01:191:01:27

We have record funding for the NHS.

Record numbers of doctors, nurses

1:01:271:01:34

and midwives. Last year the NHS

treated more people than ever

1:01:341:01:37

before. The Commonwealth fund has

rated the NHS the number one health

1:01:371:01:42

system in the world for the second

time in a row. There is record

1:01:421:01:45

funding available to the NHS. Where

she has specific concerns she should

1:01:451:01:50

absolutely raise them with

ministers, but be in no doubt this

1:01:501:01:53

government is absolutely committed

to a successful NHS that protects

1:01:531:01:59

our people and the people of this

country benefit from the amazing

1:01:591:02:03

work done by all our NHS staff

1:02:031:02:07

country benefit from the amazing

work done by all our NHS staff.

1:02:071:02:09

Would the Leader of the House join

me in welcoming ID cards for

1:02:091:02:16

Britain's 2.5 million military

veterans and will she provide time

1:02:161:02:20

for a debate for our veterans and

the Armed Forces Covenant?

I do

1:02:201:02:26

commend the honourable friend to the

work he does as the treasurer of the

1:02:261:02:30

APPG on the Armed Forces Covenant.

As the Prime Minister has already

1:02:301:02:34

said, those who have served deserve

recognition for their sacrifice and

1:02:341:02:39

we will continue to make sure they

get it. As part of the government's

1:02:391:02:44

continued commitment to the veterans

card will ensure the public can

1:02:441:02:48

recognise our heroes when they are

accessing specific support such as

1:02:481:02:52

for health care, housing and the

charitable sector.

Tonight Cardiff

1:02:521:02:59

has been designated officially as a

music city and can I congratulate

1:02:591:03:02

the campaign and colleagues in

Cardiff for that achievement. In the

1:03:021:03:09

New Year when my honourable friend

brings in his ten minute rule Bill

1:03:091:03:13

on January the tent, will she take a

look at it and consider giving it

1:03:131:03:17

government time in order to make

sure that other parts of the country

1:03:171:03:20

can benefit from having great music

venues into the future?

I think

1:03:201:03:27

music brings enormous pressure right

across the UK and I congratulate

1:03:271:03:33

Cardiff for the opportunity to

celebrate musical achievements. I'm

1:03:331:03:36

not completely familiar with the

event that he is raising but I

1:03:361:03:40

congratulate them and wish them

every success with it. I will of

1:03:401:03:44

course look closely at the ten

minute rule Bill.

Enfield is very

1:03:441:03:52

fortunate to benefit from three

local theatres, the Millfield

1:03:521:03:55

chicken shed and the Birkdale. I'll

be taking my grandchildren to the

1:03:551:04:01

Millfield to enjoy Dick Whittington

over the Christmas period. These

1:04:011:04:11

kind of local facilities are very

important. Can we have a early

1:04:111:04:17

debating government time about how

the government's very deep cuts to

1:04:171:04:21

local authorities has affected the

ability of the arts venues to

1:04:211:04:25

provide these kind of events and

programmes for local people?

1:04:251:04:31

Certainly can I congratulate all

those taking part in those plays at

1:04:311:04:39

Christmas time. The pantomime is

such good fun, my family continues

1:04:391:04:43

to enjoy it. It is important we

continue to enjoy and support those

1:04:431:04:51

local venues and the arts are a

vital part of a thriving UK economy.

1:04:511:04:55

She will be pleased to know there

are these CMS questions next week,

1:04:551:04:59

she can raise how this government

supports the arts and she will have

1:04:591:05:06

the chance before Christmas to put

her questions to ministers.

May we

1:05:061:05:16

have a debate on the needful easylaw

lords etched by the all-party

1:05:161:05:21

Parliamentary Group -- Lucy's law.

Lucy was a black spaniel who was

1:05:211:05:31

puppy farms and sadly died.

I think

the honourable lady is absolutely

1:05:311:05:39

right to raise this issue. We are a

nation of animal lovers. I myself as

1:05:391:05:44

Defra Secretary was pleased to

change the rules on puppy licensing

1:05:441:05:49

and it's important we continue to do

everything we can to enhance our

1:05:491:05:54

already very high standards of

animal welfare.

Like many across

1:05:541:06:00

this House I'm becoming increasingly

concerned about the impact of

1:06:001:06:04

government policies on the mental

help of my constituents, especially

1:06:041:06:09

those moving onto Universal Credit

over Christmas. Can we have a debate

1:06:091:06:13

in government time on the impact of

government policy on mental health?

1:06:131:06:21

The honourable gentleman is right

that mental health is a very key and

1:06:211:06:25

important issue across the UK. He

will be pleased to know that around

1:06:251:06:31

1400 more people are accessing

mental health services every day

1:06:311:06:34

compared to 2010, that is up 40%.

There is a fivefold increase in the

1:06:341:06:39

number of people accessing talking

therapies since 2010 and spending on

1:06:391:06:44

mental health has increased to a

record 11.6 billion. There is a long

1:06:441:06:48

way to go and I certainly was

delighted to see the government's

1:06:481:06:51

launch of the green paper on mental

health last week. I'm sure the

1:06:511:06:56

honourable gentleman will want to

take part in that discussion and

1:06:561:07:00

provide his input to it.

Mr Speaker,

this week the humanitarian

1:07:001:07:09

organisation the Enough Project

published a report which outlines

1:07:091:07:13

the government of Sudan's continued

oppression of religious minorities

1:07:131:07:17

and support for extremist groups.

Despite the Sudanese government

1:07:171:07:21

claims of improving human rights,

there is an ongoing campaign of

1:07:211:07:24

violence against Christians, Muslims

and other groups. The Leader of the

1:07:241:07:30

House agreed to a statement on this

matter?

The honourable gentleman

1:07:301:07:36

raises a very serious issue about

human rights and particularly the

1:07:361:07:40

rights of different religious

groups. As ever I encourage him to

1:07:401:07:44

seek an adjournment debate on the

very important points he raises.

1:07:441:07:53

There is her tanned the world are

meant amongst many disabled people

1:07:531:07:58

about the extraordinary statement by

the Chancellor of the Exchequer that

1:07:581:08:02

one of the reasons for Britain's low

productivity figures is the

1:08:021:08:07

excessive number of disabled people

in the workforce. This is the

1:08:071:08:10

reverse of the truth, because every

disabled person who comes from

1:08:101:08:18

benefits to full-time work improve

productivity figures. When can we

1:08:181:08:22

have a debate to celebrate the great

work of all governments and the

1:08:221:08:28

European Union in increasing

opportunities for disabled people to

1:08:281:08:32

get into the workplace, and to thank

them for their heroic contributions

1:08:321:08:36

to our economy?

The honourable

gentleman is raising a really

1:08:361:08:43

important point about the

contribution of disabled people to

1:08:431:08:48

our economy, and I'm absolutely

delighted to thank and praise them

1:08:481:08:51

from the dispatch box for the

contribution they make. There are

1:08:511:08:55

now more than 600,000 more disabled

people in work over the last three

1:08:551:09:00

years, 3.5 million people now in

work who have disabilities. This

1:09:001:09:06

government has a proud record of

supporting them and encouraging

1:09:061:09:08

them.

Following yesterday's victory

in Parliament over the meaningful

1:09:081:09:18

vote, will the Leader of the House

make time available for a DeXEU

1:09:181:09:29

ministered to set out the assessment

they have conducted over the impact

1:09:291:09:38

of Brexit?

As ever the honourable

gentleman uses terms that I would

1:09:381:09:43

not personally use. There will be

ample opportunities for him to raise

1:09:431:09:48

any questions that he has about the

arrangements of the UK as we seek to

1:09:481:09:53

leave the EU with the best possible

deal for all of the United Kingdom

1:09:531:09:58

and for our EU friends and

neighbours. That is what the

1:09:581:10:02

government is determined to do to

fulfil the referendum that took

1:10:021:10:06

place last year that took the very

clear decision that the UK will be

1:10:061:10:11

leaving the European Union.

Last

week I chaired an event has chaired

1:10:111:10:19

of the social enterprise all-party

group on Chris White a former Member

1:10:191:10:23

for Leamington and I mentioned this

to the current member earlier.

1:10:231:10:26

Chris's report reviewed the public

services value Act and recommended

1:10:261:10:35

to strengthen, extend social value

including to this praise. --

1:10:351:10:45

displays.

It sounds like a very

interesting report. Not one I'd seen

1:10:451:10:50

myself but I think the honourable

gentleman is right to raise it. We

1:10:501:10:53

need to look at ways to ensure we

get the best value for the public

1:10:531:10:57

purse than para gym to seek an

adjournment debate -- and I

1:10:571:11:04

encourage him.

I received

notification from the post office

1:11:041:11:08

that their branch in my constituency

was closing. I understand they were

1:11:081:11:13

aware for almost a year but they

just gave myself and constituents

1:11:131:11:17

three weeks notice. To rub salt in,

they also asked me if I had any idea

1:11:171:11:22

who might be interested in taking

over the branch. This is no way to

1:11:221:11:26

run a business let alone a public

servers. Can we have a debate on the

1:11:261:11:31

competence and accountability of

those running the post office?

I'm

1:11:311:11:35

genuinely sorry to hear that, I

think that is unusual. Normally with

1:11:351:11:40

post office closures all members

receive good prior notice in

1:11:401:11:44

colluding specific requests for

suggestions on who might be

1:11:441:11:47

interested in taking over, and

obviously quite often we as MPs are

1:11:471:11:51

in a position to suggest

individuals. I'm generally sorry to

1:11:511:11:54

hear about that. He may be

interested to know that next

1:11:541:11:57

Wednesday there is a debate on post

office closures in Westminster Hall

1:11:571:12:02

and he may wish to take part in

that.

One in ten fathers suffer with

1:12:021:12:12

postnatal depression and the suicide

rate rapidly increases in men

1:12:121:12:15

between the age of 30 and 43 after

having a child. My constituents Mark

1:12:151:12:20

Williams has been campaigning on

these subjects. Can I ask the Leader

1:12:201:12:25

of the House to find some time for a

government debate to bring new light

1:12:251:12:29

onto this part of mental health that

has a real impact on fathers across

1:12:291:12:33

the UK?

I'm absolutely sympathetic

to the honourable gentleman's point

1:12:331:12:40

and in fact I may even have heard a

speech by the gentleman he mentions.

1:12:401:12:46

This is a subject that I care

passionately about, the perinatal

1:12:461:12:51

period. Not least of which because

of pre-, Perry and postnatal

1:12:511:12:58

depression of both mothers and

fathers but of course the extremely

1:12:581:13:01

profound impact that can have on the

future long-term mental health of

1:13:011:13:06

their child. I am very sympathetic

to the honourable gentleman's point

1:13:061:13:11

and I positively encourage him to

seek a backbench debate on this

1:13:111:13:14

subject because I know there are

members who take a big interest in

1:13:141:13:18

early years.

The Leader of the House

will be aware of industrial action

1:13:181:13:25

by driving examiners this week and

the concerns of many bad management

1:13:251:13:31

of the DVLA are refusing to

negotiate. Can we have a debate and

1:13:311:13:40

ask the Department for Transport to

intervene in this matter?

I think

1:13:401:13:45

the honourable gentleman may wish to

take this up directly with the

1:13:451:13:49

Department for Transport ministers.

I think he will recognise that a

1:13:491:13:52

debate on this subject would be very

helpful to try and move things

1:13:521:13:56

forward. If there are good ideas

suggested by members of Parliament.

1:13:561:13:59

Nevertheless it would be the

ministers to intervene if there is

1:13:591:14:03

intervention necessary.

The people

in Syria were subject to a horrific

1:14:031:14:13

attack which killed 1700 people and

since then 400,000 civilians have

1:14:131:14:18

suffered constant artillery

bombardment and the blocking of

1:14:181:14:24

medical evacuations. May I ask for a

statement on the representations he

1:14:241:14:28

is making to help the people of

eastern Ghouta and what further

1:14:281:14:35

efforts can be taken to secure

peace?

This government has shown our

1:14:351:14:43

very strong commitment to bed

sharing in finding a solution to the

1:14:431:14:46

problems of Syria but also in

providing aid to alleviate the

1:14:461:14:52

suffering of so many who have been

displaced or driven away altogether

1:14:521:14:57

into neighbouring countries. I think

we can be proud of our contribution

1:14:571:15:00

but the honourable gentleman may

well wish to raise that adds an

1:15:001:15:05

adjournment debate so he can speak

direct with ministers.

1:15:051:15:18

We now come to the select committee

statement. The honourable gentleman,

1:15:181:15:23

the Member for Tunbridge Morley,

will speak on his subject for up to

1:15:231:15:29

ten minutes during which time no

interventions may be taken. At the

1:15:291:15:33

conclusion of his statement I will

call members to put questions on the

1:15:331:15:36

subject of the statements and I

shall of course therefore call the

1:15:361:15:41

honourable gentleman to respond to

those questions in turn. Members can

1:15:411:15:45

expect to be called only once.

Interventions should be questions

1:15:451:15:51

and should be brief. The front bench

may take part in questioning. By now

1:15:511:15:57

called the chair of the foreign

affairs select committee.

Thank you,

1:15:571:16:04

Mr Speaker, and it's a great

privilege to give the first select

1:16:041:16:07

committee statement to this House,

to this Parliament, in this

1:16:071:16:12

Parliament. It's a huge pleasure

because we are delegated from this

1:16:121:16:17

House to investigate a particular

area, in our case foreign affairs

1:16:171:16:22

and we are now reporting back to the

House on our findings. The Foreign

1:16:221:16:25

Affairs Committee chose to publish

its report on the ethnic cleansing

1:16:251:16:30

of the Rohingya population having

heard harrowing testimony. It has

1:16:301:16:37

rightly drawn the attention of all

sides of this House and has seen

1:16:371:16:41

honourable members from the City of

Durham, Kettering, Bolton South

1:16:411:16:48

East, Ealing Southall, Wolverhampton

South West, tooting, Colchester and

1:16:481:16:52

Cardiff Central take a personal

interest in this issue. I pay

1:16:521:16:56

particular tribute to those

honourable members who have visited

1:16:561:17:01

parts of the refugee community in

Bangladesh to hear directly from the

1:17:011:17:05

victims. The committee was able to

be clear that the violence against

1:17:051:17:09

the Rohingya is ethnic cleansing and

may constitute crimes against

1:17:091:17:14

humanity and even genocide because

of the testimony we received. We are

1:17:141:17:18

pleased the Government's initial

equivocation about the term has now

1:17:181:17:22

been clarified and the Minister has

been clear that the 650,000 who have

1:17:221:17:28

crossed the border into Bangladesh

since August were driven out by the

1:17:281:17:33

Burmese authorities. The

displacement is a compelling sign of

1:17:331:17:36

a desperate population and the

traumatic experiences they have

1:17:361:17:40

described are reminiscent of

atrocities elsewhere. In the face of

1:17:401:17:45

such abuse we must ask what 2005 UN

resolution we agreed on the

1:17:451:17:52

responsibility to protect requires

of us. The first must surely be the

1:17:521:17:57

UK Government conducts its own legal

analysis. Such analysis from a

1:17:571:18:01

permanent member of the United

Nations Security Council and indeed

1:18:011:18:05

the pen holder on Burma would help

shape understanding of the issue and

1:18:051:18:11

structure of global response. Today

this is needed more than ever.

1:18:111:18:17

Research found that at least 9000

Rohingya died between the 25th of

1:18:171:18:23

August and the 24th of September.

The charity MSF states that in the

1:18:231:18:32

most Conservative estimations, at

least 6000 of those deaths have been

1:18:321:18:38

caused by violence. This stays the

investigation conducted by the

1:18:381:18:44

Burmese military was brutal enough

to take the case to the

1:18:441:18:49

International criminal Court for

crimes against humanity. We also

1:18:491:18:55

heard reports of sexual violence

being used and the Secretary-General

1:18:551:19:02

is expected to be there this week.

We welcome too the actions taken by

1:19:021:19:12

the human rights Council to hear

about the degradation and treatment

1:19:121:19:15

of minorities in Burma. These build

on the achievements of our own

1:19:151:19:23

representatives in the UN to secure

a very strong presidential

1:19:231:19:27

statement. Burma's response to this

growing wadi of evidence or indeed

1:19:271:19:33

evidence of bodies has been

exceptionally poor. The commission

1:19:331:19:39

was clear and recall for its

recommendations to be implemented in

1:19:391:19:43

full. That's why the committee calls

on the UK to consider sanctions on

1:19:431:19:47

individuals connected with the

military regime and particularly on

1:19:471:19:50

the Commander in chief. Although

sanctions are an imperfect tool, it

1:19:501:19:59

is wrong for the UK to continue

engagement with Burma with no

1:19:591:20:03

demonstration of censure and his

responsibility in particular cannot

1:20:031:20:09

be ignored. The UK must bear some

responsibility for seeking to turn

1:20:091:20:14

outrage into action and should focus

on regional forums and allies to

1:20:141:20:24

achieve results. The committee

recognised, supported and welcomed

1:20:241:20:28

the efforts of my right honourable

friend the Minister who I'm glad to

1:20:281:20:32

see in his place on the Treasury

bench. The committee knows the sad

1:20:321:20:42

-- suddenness of Aung San Suu Kyi.

Not speaking out in the face of such

1:20:421:20:56

crimes suggests acquiesced at some

level under failure of leadership at

1:20:561:21:01

every level. She remains a better

option the alternatives perhaps, and

1:21:011:21:06

perhaps the only option for the

future, but she is now deeply

1:21:061:21:11

compromised. Finally Bangladesh

deserves praise and material support

1:21:111:21:16

for accommodating well over half a

million new refugees this year and

1:21:161:21:19

the British Government is also

deserves credit for its quick and

1:21:191:21:23

generous provision of aid. While

return must be the ambition, we

1:21:231:21:27

noted this can only happen when

humanitarian access is possible and

1:21:271:21:33

we are also concerned that the camps

in Bangladesh should not become

1:21:331:21:38

permanent, leaving people exposed to

radicalisation and storing up

1:21:381:21:42

problems for the future. As the

committee noted, this crisis was

1:21:421:21:46

sadly predictable and indeed the

Foreign Office did predict it. But

1:21:461:21:51

the Foreign Office's own warning

system did not raise enough alarm.

1:21:511:21:55

There was too much focus by the UK

and others in recent years on

1:21:551:21:59

supporting the democratic transition

and not enough on atrocity

1:21:591:22:03

prevention. Indeed as will set out

by Lord Haig during his term in

1:22:031:22:08

office. And delivering a tough and

unwelcome message to the Burmese

1:22:081:22:13

government about the Rohingya was

not made early enough. The United

1:22:131:22:23

Kingdom... Sorry, a minister in his

place was incredibly candid about

1:22:231:22:26

the need to reflect and the Foreign

Office must now learn lessons on

1:22:261:22:32

atrocity prevention from the crisis

to apply not only in Burma but

1:22:321:22:36

elsewhere.

1:22:361:22:38

Kerry McCarthy. I know of your

long-standing interest in this issue

1:22:451:22:49

which you demonstrated on the

backbenches. I think it's an

1:22:491:22:52

excellent report and I would like to

ask the chair of the foreign affairs

1:22:521:22:56

select committee, on the issue of

return to Burma, some of the

1:22:561:23:00

refugees may be reluctant to return

considering the treatment they have

1:23:001:23:04

received. To what extent of a look

at alternatives to be in either

1:23:041:23:09

Burma or Bangladesh and did they

feel there was support from within

1:23:091:23:12

the Rohingya community to be moved

to somewhere, completely?

The

1:23:121:23:22

committee was very focused on the

ability to return to Burma because

1:23:221:23:25

we did not seek to allow the Burmese

government and opt out by which they

1:23:251:23:30

could permanently displace these

people and forced others to take

1:23:301:23:34

responsibility for their brutality.

Although the committee was aware

1:23:341:23:38

return could only happen when it was

properly supervised, we did not

1:23:381:23:44

emphasise the point on third-party

displacement.

Would my own marble

1:23:441:23:51

and gallant friend agree that one of

the main things that could be done

1:23:511:23:56

would be to send a UN special envoy

to Iraq I stayed to help people

1:23:561:24:05

there and get them back who are

displaced and does he believe that

1:24:051:24:09

would be a really good move on

behalf of the UN?

My marble friend

1:24:091:24:19

is right, we do look at that and

welcome that suggestion.

The

1:24:191:24:32

honourable gentleman is deeply

grateful to his honourable friend

1:24:321:24:34

that she promoted him to the status

of a military general.

Can I pay

1:24:341:24:43

tribute to my honourable friend in

the way he has chaired the

1:24:431:24:48

committee, and indeed to the

Minister for the candid way in which

1:24:481:24:51

he presented the case of the UK

Government when he spoke to give

1:24:511:24:54

evidence to the committee but I

wonder if I could ask the chairman

1:24:541:24:57

of the committee if he thinks this

again shows the bluntness of the UN

1:24:571:25:02

and shows they don't have enough

tools available to them to deal with

1:25:021:25:05

this kind of international crisis?

My honourable friend speaks clearly

1:25:051:25:14

and identifies his own views on the

UN. This is not a subject we have

1:25:141:25:18

yet looked upon and as I'm

responding to a particular report I

1:25:181:25:21

don't think it would be appropriate

for me to stray into the structure

1:25:211:25:26

of the United Nations. However I

would urge the Minister to work

1:25:261:25:30

through the United Nations system to

make sure reports are fully

1:25:301:25:34

implemented, as he will remember

from our time in the committee we

1:25:341:25:37

all fully supported.

My right

honourable friend... The

1:25:371:25:48

humanitarian crisis which was in

stark contrast to the letter sent to

1:25:481:25:52

the committee by the Burmese embassy

which contradicted all the evidence

1:25:521:25:56

that we talk. But does my right

honourable friend agree with me...

1:25:561:26:02

Forgive me, honourable friend, agree

with me that the underlying problem

1:26:021:26:05

here is the fact the Burmese

authority and Aung San Suu Kyi have

1:26:051:26:12

denied citizenship to the Rohingya

and that we should push them to make

1:26:121:26:17

sure the Rohingya are given a right

to remain in their homeland?

The

1:26:171:26:25

honourable gentleman's cup runneth

over!

Despite those promotions I

1:26:251:26:35

will address the question my right

honourable friend raises. She is of

1:26:351:26:40

course right the refusal of

citizenship to this population have

1:26:401:26:43

been a great abuse. Their

citizenship was effectively removed

1:26:431:26:49

from them by the 1980s and the

commission is very clear that

1:26:491:26:55

citizenship must be restored and

that indeed is one of the reasons we

1:26:551:26:58

are so clear, as she will remember

from our discussions, in insisting

1:26:581:27:03

the whole of the and on commission

is implemented in full. -- the whole

1:27:031:27:10

of the commission.

Can I also

congratulate the chair of the

1:27:101:27:14

Foreign Affairs Committee, it's been

a very interesting committee to

1:27:141:27:16

beyond, thank you for the way he's

conducted this inquiry. Can I ask in

1:27:161:27:22

particular about the need to find a

way to open access to Rakhine

1:27:221:27:34

province? I think we have to be very

concerned about the lack of access

1:27:341:27:39

to scrutiny with the news of arrests

of two Reuters journalist believed

1:27:391:27:46

to be attempting to report on the

situation there. And the UK

1:27:461:27:51

Government with others in the

international community have to find

1:27:511:27:55

a way to ensure their racing engine

monitoring and oversight of what is

1:27:551:28:04

happening in Rakhine province.

Thank

you, may I pay tribute to my right

1:28:041:28:10

honourable friend, as is being

evidenced this morning you can see

1:28:101:28:13

why such a pleasure to chair this

committee with such experts on it

1:28:131:28:18

and such intelligence and supportive

friends. My right honourable friend

1:28:181:28:22

is right then making sure the access

is possible is an essential part of

1:28:221:28:28

the Government's duty now and I

welcome the efforts of my right

1:28:281:28:31

honourable friend the Minister in

seeking that when he's been working

1:28:311:28:36

with other regional organisations. I

also welcome the support he is given

1:28:361:28:39

to the United Nations and my right

honourable friend will remember

1:28:391:28:43

indeed the discussion we had an

committee about making sure the UN

1:28:431:28:46

had that access.

I visited the

refugee camp near Cox's Bazaar last

1:28:461:28:59

month and it is now equivalent in

size to the city of Bristol without

1:28:591:29:04

hospital, inadequate roads and very

few schools, and was described by

1:29:041:29:09

the UNHCR is the most congested camp

in the last 15 years of their

1:29:091:29:13

experience anywhere in the world. On

page 32 of the report, my right

1:29:131:29:21

honourable friend highlights the

fact ethnic cleansing has not been

1:29:211:29:24

recognised as an independent crime

under international law. Is he, like

1:29:241:29:29

I, surprised and disappointed by

that and would he encouraged Her

1:29:291:29:34

Majesty's government to see if she

could change that situation?

The

1:29:341:29:38

honourable member for Kettering

makes an excellent point and I

1:29:381:29:40

welcome his call for ethnic

cleansing to be defined as a

1:29:401:29:44

separate crime. The 550 thousand odd

people demonstrate this is a crime

1:29:441:29:52

not only in the past but is very

much having an effect in the present

1:29:521:29:55

and I welcome the efforts he made

and his personal courage in going

1:29:551:30:00

there and being able to report back

to this House.

1:30:001:30:08

Can I commend what is an excellent

report and every word of it has

1:30:081:30:14

value. The real issue now is the

return of refugees to Myanmar. This

1:30:141:30:23

isn't possible under present

circumstances. I wonder if the

1:30:231:30:26

honourable gentleman would agree

with me the need now is for genuine

1:30:261:30:31

humanitarian assistance which means

yes from DFiD but ensuring we are

1:30:311:30:41

treating this with the gravity it

deserves.

Regional response is an

1:30:411:30:48

essential part of this. The work are

majesties government has done in

1:30:481:30:53

putting up money initially will only

goes so far because it is

1:30:531:30:56

unreasonable to expect Her Majesty

's government could bear the entire

1:30:561:31:00

burden. The work the Minister is

doing regionally should be welcomed

1:31:001:31:04

because he has made sure this is a

regional response to what is frankly

1:31:041:31:08

a regional problem.

Visiting the

camp was an overwhelming and

1:31:081:31:15

heartbreaking experience and all of

us have a sense of duty having met

1:31:151:31:21

the refugees who suffered the worst

experiences life has got to offer is

1:31:211:31:26

indeed to make sure they don't

become invisible. I congratulate the

1:31:261:31:31

chairman and this is very good

report. It's realistic, it doesn't

1:31:311:31:35

offer any facile solutions. Can I

suggest this is one situation where

1:31:351:31:39

the only long-term answer to their

problems is not to continue,

1:31:391:31:48

certainly we need more aid there,

it's pitiful at the moment. There is

1:31:481:31:52

a great deal being done. The Emmy

long-term solution is for a return

1:31:521:31:56

to their land -- the only long-term

solution is for a return to their

1:31:561:32:02

land in Myanmar and the only way to

do that is to give a cast-iron

1:32:021:32:07

guarantee of having Armed Forces

with them. The British Army have had

1:32:071:32:11

a fine record in operations of this

kind.

My honourable friend has made

1:32:111:32:18

some very good points and I

certainly welcome his call that we

1:32:181:32:21

must support the returning refugees.

Our committee make the clear case of

1:32:211:32:27

humanitarian access being essential

before any refugees could return. We

1:32:271:32:31

were very cautious to recommend Her

Majesty's government should send

1:32:311:32:36

British soldiers over for various

historical legacy reasons, and the

1:32:361:32:40

misunderstandings that could cause

rise to. We raised with the Minister

1:32:401:32:43

and the Minister was extremely

receptive to the idea of regional

1:32:431:32:47

support. Whether that be under the

United Nations of having some form

1:32:471:32:55

of alert force or possibly even

support falls to be there with the

1:32:551:33:00

refugees as they return.

Can I

congratulate my plainly honourable

1:33:001:33:09

friend on this excellent report.

Whilst Myanmar is not a member of

1:33:091:33:13

the Commonwealth, does he think

there is a role for Commonwealth

1:33:131:33:18

countries to be able to advise, help

and support so that these instances

1:33:181:33:22

don't happen in the future and we

can get over the current tragedy

1:33:221:33:26

sooner?

I'm sure my honourable

friend joins me in the sadness we

1:33:261:33:31

feel that Burma is not currently

able to seek readmittance to the

1:33:311:33:36

Commonwealth because of these tragic

events that she has sadly done

1:33:361:33:40

nothing to prevent. Of course there

is a role for the Commonwealth in

1:33:401:33:44

the region and the role for

Commonwealth more widely and we

1:33:441:33:48

should also welcome the words of

Bishop Tutu in condemning the

1:33:481:33:54

silence of the State Council. It is

only voices like is that carry a

1:33:541:33:58

weight is equal to hers.

Thank you.

We welcome the report from the

1:33:581:34:07

foreign affairs select committee and

agree with the conclusion that any

1:34:071:34:11

repatriation must be safe and

voluntary. Does he agree that in

1:34:111:34:14

order to ensure there is no

repatriations which doesn't meet

1:34:141:34:21

these conditions, the United Nations

High Commissioner for refugees must

1:34:211:34:24

have access on both sides of the

border?

The honourable member is

1:34:241:34:31

making an extremely valid point and

we called in this report for

1:34:311:34:33

absolute access in various areas and

for the special representative of

1:34:331:34:44

the -- the special representative to

have access into the capital. It

1:34:441:34:47

needs to go further and she is right

that the representatives of the UN

1:34:471:34:51

High Commission for refugees need

access on the ground not just with

1:34:511:34:54

the government.

I commend the

honourable gentleman and his

1:34:541:34:59

committee on this excellent report.

I agree that the UK bear significant

1:34:591:35:05

responsibility for the international

failure to effectively respond to

1:35:051:35:08

the crisis, considering the UK's

roll on the UN Security Council.

1:35:081:35:13

Does he agree with me that the UK

Government needs to suspend its

1:35:131:35:17

military assistance programme in the

Burnley 's region?

I welcome the

1:35:171:35:23

fact that they have already done so.

Order. Let me say to the honourable

1:35:231:35:33

gentleman that I think I speak for

the House in thanking him and his

1:35:331:35:37

committee very warmly for their

ongoing work, for this report, for

1:35:371:35:44

his statement to the House today and

for his very courteous and

1:35:441:35:49

comprehensive responses to

questions. Thank you.

I theorise

1:35:491:35:58

inadvertently misled the House, Mr

Speaker, during the business

1:35:581:36:01

question when I suggested that

honourable and Right honourable

1:36:011:36:05

members could enjoy the pantomime of

Dick Whittington at the Millfield

1:36:051:36:08

Theatre. Indeed that was the last

pantomime I saw there. If they wish

1:36:081:36:14

to attend the Millfield Theatre it

would be to enjoy Jack and the

1:36:141:36:20

Beanstalk.

LAUGHTER

I'm grateful to

the honourable lady because that is

1:36:201:36:26

an extremely helpful clarification.

Moreover in the process of offering

1:36:261:36:29

that clarification to the House the

right honourable lady has served

1:36:291:36:33

further to highlight the important

work done by and the continued

1:36:331:36:40

pleasure brought about by the

theatre which I believe to be in her

1:36:401:36:47

own constituency.

Oh no it isn't!

LAUGHTER

In my borough, Mr Speaker.

1:36:471:36:58

It serves by constituency.

In the

honourable lady's borough. We now

1:36:581:37:04

know the important work of this

theatre is in the London Borough of

1:37:041:37:09

Enfield for which I think about the

theatre and the borough will be

1:37:091:37:13

eternally grateful. Thank you. If

there are no further points of order

1:37:131:37:22

we now come to the backbench motion

on equality of pension provision for

1:37:221:37:28

women. Theresa May Schmeichel Mr

Grahame Morris.

Thank you. I would

1:37:281:37:36

like to thank the Backbench Business

Committee for granting this debate

1:37:361:37:41

and for the responses who supported

me in this application. I'd like to

1:37:411:37:50

thank the Waspi code campaign

nationally who are well represented

1:37:501:37:53

in the gallery and are involved in

protests and demonstrations outside

1:37:531:37:59

the palace in support of their

legitimate campaigns. I'll give way.

1:37:591:38:08

I'm grateful to the honourable

gentleman. Can I pay tribute to him

1:38:081:38:11

for the work is done on this issue.

He mentions there are a lot of Waspi

1:38:111:38:16

campaign is here today. Is this an

opportune time for the Minister to

1:38:161:38:21

apologise for the cross remarks he

made in Westminster Hall that they

1:38:211:38:27

could get modern apprenticeships?

I'm going to come onto some of the

1:38:271:38:29

Minister's remarks. If he did want

to take that opportunity I'm sure

1:38:291:38:35

the Waspi women would certainly

welcome such an apology. It's

1:38:351:38:40

simple, what we are asking for, or

what the campaign is asking for.

1:38:401:38:45

That is set out in the resolution

before the House a non-means tested

1:38:451:38:50

bridging pension to some 38 million

women so that they don't have to

1:38:501:38:55

live in poverty, such pension to be

paid as a percentage of the full

1:38:551:39:01

state pension and compensation

offered over the period between aged

1:39:011:39:04

60 and the new state pension age. I

give way.

I'm very grateful to the

1:39:041:39:14

honourable gentleman and I

congratulate him forgetting this

1:39:141:39:16

debate before Parliament. I think we

would all agree that this is an

1:39:161:39:20

injustice that needs to be

addressed. Would he agree that we

1:39:201:39:23

have to also look at ways of how it

could be funded, and I've discovered

1:39:231:39:29

from the House of Commons library

that bringing forward the proposed

1:39:291:39:33

increase in the pension age from 67

to 68 from 2037 to 2036 would in

1:39:331:39:40

itself raise £7.5 billion

approximately which would go some

1:39:401:39:47

way to helping these women address

the injustice they face.

I'm

1:39:471:39:53

grateful to the right honourable

gentleman for that intervention and

1:39:531:39:56

I want to come a little later in my

remarks to some of the proposals and

1:39:561:40:03

how this injustice may be addressed.

I'll give way.

Can I congratulate my

1:40:031:40:13

honourable friend in securing this

debate and can I say, would he agree

1:40:131:40:16

with me that it is absolutely

shocking and unacceptable that the

1:40:161:40:20

Waspi campaigners have had to work

so tirelessly to get absolutely no

1:40:201:40:25

response from the government.

I

completely agree with my right

1:40:251:40:31

honourable friend. We have debated

this issue many times. I think maybe

1:40:311:40:37

29 or 30 times in this place and in

the Westminster Hall. Indeed, over

1:40:371:40:45

the past few months, we've been

incredibly active. EDM 63 has 195

1:40:451:40:54

signatures, and e-petition but was

laid before Parliament attracted

1:40:541:41:01

109,000 signatures. That number

continues to grow. We had an

1:41:011:41:06

oversubscribed Westminster Hall

debate where there were so many

1:41:061:41:08

members present they were sitting on

the window ledges... I'll give way

1:41:081:41:13

to my honourable friend.

Can I first

congratulate my honourable friend

1:41:131:41:24

and securing the debate and the

tireless work he puts into the

1:41:241:41:27

cause. I certainly support the fair

transitional state pension

1:41:271:41:34

arrangements for all Waspi are

winning. They've put forward a

1:41:341:41:38

number of options for potential

solutions to provide transitional

1:41:381:41:41

arrangements for the women affected

and will he be coming to that point

1:41:411:41:44

later in his speech?

Absolutely. I'm

grateful for the intervention and

1:41:441:41:49

there are a number of options and

there are things the Minister could

1:41:491:41:52

do immediately to mitigate and

alleviate the worst hardship that's

1:41:521:41:56

been suffered currently. Indeed it's

a matter of concern across the whole

1:41:561:42:01

house and the EDM and the

representations that have been made

1:42:011:42:08

from every nation, every region,

every political party in this House.

1:42:081:42:11

I'll give way.

I'm very grateful to

my right honourable friend, and he's

1:42:111:42:18

making a good job of putting the

case. Can I put to him the words of

1:42:181:42:23

a retired teacher who says she was

born in July 1954 and she says, the

1:42:231:42:31

boy I sat next to in school was born

in November 1953. We left school at

1:42:311:42:36

the same time and began to pay our

National Insurance and income tax at

1:42:361:42:41

the same time, but he receives his

state pension and his 65th birthday.

1:42:411:42:45

I have to wait ten months beyond my

65th birthday, how can that be fair?

1:42:451:42:53

Hasn't she summed it up very well?

Absolutely. I'm grateful for the

1:42:531:43:00

intervention and I'm sure every

member in this House and all sides

1:43:001:43:03

of the House have got many examples

of Waspi women coming to surgeries

1:43:031:43:11

and writing and sending e-mails.

Daley, I receive heartbreaking

1:43:111:43:18

letters from my own constituents and

from further afield. E-mails from

1:43:181:43:23

women who have been suffering

extreme hardship. I'll give way.

I'm

1:43:231:43:29

proud to be a signatory of the

debate as well. Can I point out

1:43:291:43:34

because so far he's been referring

to Waspi. We know there's a lot of

1:43:341:43:38

interest in this whole issue and

only some of the groups call

1:43:381:43:42

themselves Waspi. What we are

referring to is all those women born

1:43:421:43:46

in the 1950s who are suffering from

an injustice disproportionately

1:43:461:43:50

inflicted on them through the

changes to the pension qualification

1:43:501:43:54

range.

Absolutely and I welcome that

intervention and acknowledge the

1:43:541:43:59

conjugation that the honourable

gentleman has made to the campaign.

1:43:591:44:05

I do agree. I'm going to give way

once more.

Thank you forgiving way

1:44:051:44:09

and for all the hard work he has put

in on this issue. I'm sure he, like

1:44:091:44:15

myself, has come across a lot of

women who are telling me stories

1:44:151:44:19

about how they have based their

whole retirement plans and maybe

1:44:191:44:22

their partner has already retired,

based on what they were told and

1:44:221:44:26

assumed would be their normal

retirement age. Everyone says it's

1:44:261:44:30

just not fair.

Absolutely, I

completely agree with my honourable

1:44:301:44:35

friend. Many of these women have

worked since they were 16.

1:44:351:44:43

They have signed up to a deal, they

consider it to be an agreement with

1:44:431:44:48

government and it has been cast

aside with little or no regard for

1:44:481:44:51

their financial circumstances. I'll

give away to the Gentleman.

I

1:44:511:44:57

thinking for giving way and

organising this debate. He used the

1:44:571:45:01

word heartbreaking and is genuinely

is to listen to women as I have in

1:45:011:45:05

Dudley and the Black Country, who

found themselves retiring early to

1:45:051:45:11

care for the relative, in some cases

their husband and subsequently found

1:45:111:45:17

themselves or widowed and left with

no income coming in at all facing

1:45:171:45:22

the prospect of having to wait much

longer for the pension on which they

1:45:221:45:26

planned their whole future. Would

you agree with me particular

1:45:261:45:30

attention has got to be given to

women in that position?

Absolutely

1:45:301:45:35

and there are things the Minister

and government can do immediately.

1:45:351:45:39

What we are doing here is creating

an unnecessary generation of women,

1:45:391:45:44

many now relying on food banks and

some are forced to sell their homes

1:45:441:45:48

and forced to rely on a benefits

system. It's degrading for them.

1:45:481:45:53

I'll give away.

I thank him for

giving way. Does he agree with me

1:45:531:46:00

that the role of the trade union

movement in supporting the WASPI

1:46:001:46:04

movement has to be praised? And I

can tell you the campaign in Glasgow

1:46:041:46:09

are watching the debate live in the

union office, one is my

1:46:091:46:14

constituents, who worked until 50

years and now has to work until 65.

1:46:141:46:25

Absolutely, this is a huge injustice

that affects all regions and parts

1:46:251:46:29

of the United Kingdom. These are

hard-working decent women who have

1:46:291:46:35

contributed through the national

insurance fund and had an

1:46:351:46:38

anticipation of receiving their

state pension. I'll give away to my

1:46:381:46:42

friend.

I'm very grateful for him to

give way and I want to pay tribute

1:46:421:46:48

to him for securing this debate and

all the work he does on this issue

1:46:481:46:52

and the WASPI campaign and others as

well. Would he agree with me that

1:46:521:46:57

what's happening to a lot of these

women is they are being very

1:46:571:47:02

inappropriately dealt with by both

the job centre and the benefit

1:47:021:47:05

system? I am sure my friend who

wants to know this, I had a Lady in

1:47:051:47:11

my constituency surgery last week

who had just been made redundant

1:47:111:47:15

from Walkers crisps factory. She has

a full employment and contribution

1:47:151:47:19

record but she is a really fearful

about what's going to happen to her

1:47:191:47:23

over the next few years and if she

is going to be forced into

1:47:231:47:29

inappropriate work, she doesn't know

what benefit she is going to get.

1:47:291:47:33

She is stressed and has had this

full record of contributions and

1:47:331:47:37

shouldn't she have proper

transitional arrangements and to not

1:47:371:47:39

be treated this way?

Absolutely,

it's doubly relevant to me, Deputy

1:47:391:47:48

Speaker, Walkers crisps in my

constituency are closing this week

1:47:481:47:52

just before Christmas, 400 people

losing their jobs, many long serving

1:47:521:47:56

employees have worked hard, some in

their late 50s and early 60s with an

1:47:561:48:03

anticipation of receiving their

state pension. I'll give way to my

1:48:031:48:07

friend from Hartlepool.

I'm grateful

to my friend and neighbour for

1:48:071:48:12

giving way and I take great pleasure

in praising him for the work he does

1:48:121:48:17

on behalf of the WASPI movement.

Would my friend agree with me that

1:48:171:48:21

in the neighbouring towns of

Hartlepool, my constituency, 5500

1:48:211:48:28

women have suffered due to lack of

action on this matter by the

1:48:281:48:32

government, forcing them to food

banks in some cases and feeling

1:48:321:48:35

victimised in all cases?

Absolutely,

and these women are disadvantaged in

1:48:351:48:41

many ways, often weighs many members

don't realise. Issues have been

1:48:411:48:46

raised with me about free bus

passes. Living outside of London,

1:48:461:48:53

people from the regions, the

north-east and south-west, many of

1:48:531:48:57

these women don't drive. So, without

free bus passes... I'll give away to

1:48:571:49:03

the Lady.

I appreciate the Gentleman

giving way. Could I ask him and

1:49:031:49:12

other members on the seats opposite,

how much fasted they make when

1:49:121:49:16

Gordon Brown brought this change in?

How much fuss?

I think the issue we

1:49:161:49:25

need to address is where we are now.

There are two... Well, you've raised

1:49:251:49:30

a suggestion. You've raised a

question. Do we think it was wrong?

1:49:301:49:38

And I think that the 1995 changes

were incorrect. Please let me answer

1:49:381:49:43

this and I will take your

intervention. But what happened in

1:49:431:49:49

the 2011 act, those changes which

were originally spread over a longer

1:49:491:49:56

period were expedited. I want to

quote the former pensions Minister,

1:49:561:50:02

Stephen Webber who elaborates on

this point. I indicated I give away

1:50:021:50:06

to the Gentleman but I want to take

as many interventions as I can. Do

1:50:061:50:11

you mind, because I did indicate and

then I'll accept the intervention.

I

1:50:111:50:16

thank the member and commend him for

his speech, just to clarify, B 1995

1:50:161:50:23

pension act was put through by a

Tory government and the 2011 pension

1:50:231:50:28

act was put through by a Tory

coalition so why she references

1:50:281:50:33

Gordon Brown is a mystery.

I'll give

away to the Minister.

I'm most

1:50:331:50:41

grateful to the Gentleman for

letting me intervene, but he will be

1:50:411:50:46

aware that in 2007, after ten years

of a Labour government they

1:50:461:50:52

considered all matters on pensions

legislation and passed the 2007 act

1:50:521:50:57

and did have all consideration of

the matters on this, so had total

1:50:571:51:02

capacity in their 13 years of power

to do something they now say it was

1:51:021:51:06

not appropriate to do. With respect,

there is a legitimate thing to

1:51:061:51:09

answer on this.

I will, but I just

want to have an opportunity to

1:51:091:51:15

respond to that. What we need to do

is recognise the injustice that

1:51:151:51:19

these women face and there were many

missed opportunities. In the 2011

1:51:191:51:27

act, it accelerated the changes no

doubt, the former pensions Minister

1:51:271:51:31

Stephen Webber is quoted extensively

as indicating that was the case and

1:51:311:51:37

when he was writing out on behalf of

the coalition governance, the

1:51:371:51:43

response he received from many WASPI

women, his comment was that he was

1:51:431:51:47

not only informing them of a change

of one year brought about by the

1:51:471:51:53

2011 act, but for the first time

about the earlier changes. So in

1:51:531:51:59

fact, their state pension retirement

age was being extended by six years

1:51:591:52:02

in some cases. I'll give away to

her.

I thank him for giving way. As

1:52:021:52:09

someone who was one years old when

the 95 act came into effect but is

1:52:091:52:13

sitting here like everyone else, can

I say to all members that in this

1:52:131:52:19

debate, can we get past the party

political nonsense of whose fault it

1:52:191:52:22

is? The point is this mess has been

going on for long enough, this is

1:52:221:52:27

the government in charge just now,

the problem has not gone away and it

1:52:271:52:31

is this government that needs to

deal with it.

Absolutely, and there

1:52:311:52:35

are things the government could do

immediately to mitigate for the

1:52:351:52:39

worst cases of hardship. For

example, and I'll get you in a

1:52:391:52:44

moment. I know many members want to

contribute and place things on

1:52:441:52:48

record. Can I mention also be winter

fuel allowance that can be worth up

1:52:481:52:54

to £300 and if the Minister is

looking for suggestions, that would

1:52:541:52:57

be a decent staff of government, to

give the WASPI women this payment

1:52:571:53:02

each year which would enable them to

have some level of comfort during

1:53:021:53:05

this cold winter weather when many

have to choose in my region between

1:53:051:53:09

heating...

I'm grateful for him and

he is right to say the problems date

1:53:091:53:14

all the way from 95 and through

three or more governments. But can I

1:53:141:53:19

ask him, does he agree what a lot of

my constituents feel, this is as

1:53:191:53:24

much to do with communication as it

is to do with policy? Many of my

1:53:241:53:30

women who are affected said if they

had known in time and knowing what

1:53:301:53:33

the effects of the changes were,

they wouldn't have been able to

1:53:331:53:37

respond -- would have been able.

Would he agree?

I think that's a

1:53:371:53:42

completely reasonable point the

Gentleman makes. I'm sure there is

1:53:421:53:46

common cause on all sides of the

House, I am looking at the Minister

1:53:461:53:49

and hoping common sense can prevail.

There has to be at knowledge meant

1:53:491:53:54

there was poor communication and I'm

sure the Minister is aware there is

1:53:541:53:58

a collective action put forward by

the WASPI women, through binding and

1:53:581:54:04

solicitors. And there is a

possibility they could be a case of

1:54:041:54:11

maladministration if found in their

favour. I'll give way.

The

1:54:111:54:15

constituents that have been to see

me, and I've been listening

1:54:151:54:19

carefully to what he says and he

seems to know what he's talking

1:54:191:54:21

about. Could he give an idea of how

much this will cost? Because I

1:54:211:54:28

suspect there is a whole range of

different amounts of money but I

1:54:281:54:31

would be curious to know what he

thinks would be the right amount of

1:54:311:54:35

money to go some way to putting this

right.

There are things we could do

1:54:351:54:41

immediately, I think there are

things the government and the

1:54:411:54:43

Minister could do immediately. I

want to come to those later on and

1:54:431:54:48

have set them out in this sequential

way and there are suggestions about

1:54:481:54:53

immediately extending pensions

credit to the group. I don't have

1:54:531:54:56

the costings for that. I mentioned

extending... 800 million, and my

1:54:561:55:04

front bench informs me from a

sedentary position. There are things

1:55:041:55:08

that could be done in relation to

winter fuel allowance and bus passes

1:55:081:55:12

that offer immediate help to these

women. Can I say, the fundamental

1:55:121:55:16

point of former pensions Minister

Stephen Webber said and I alluded to

1:55:161:55:21

some moments ago in response as well

to the Minister's intervention, this

1:55:211:55:25

is what he said. "The 2011 act,

which he was responsible for as

1:55:251:55:33

Minister didn't add more than 18

months to the People's pensions age,

1:55:331:55:37

typically they added 12 months. But

when we did write to people, we

1:55:371:55:43

wrote to them to tell them what

changes we had made. This was the

1:55:431:55:47

first time they had heard about the

first changes, so instead of me

1:55:471:55:51

writing to them to tell them that

was an extra year on the pension

1:55:511:55:54

age, we were effectively turning

them they had six extra years added

1:55:541:55:58

to their pension age". Which of

course is why they are outraged, and

1:55:581:56:03

we are hopefully having a sensible

and constructive, meaningful debate,

1:56:031:56:09

but make no mistake, there is real

hardship and outrage out there. I'll

1:56:091:56:13

give away.

Thank you, and he is

setting out the case beautifully and

1:56:131:56:19

I shall congratulate him on getting

this debate organised. Can I say to

1:56:191:56:24

him as someone who represents a

retirement town, I have had many

1:56:241:56:28

local constituents making this

point, most taking a slightly

1:56:281:56:31

different point of view. They don't

object to the principle of

1:56:311:56:36

equalisation of pension paid at all,

they think it is just and right, but

1:56:361:56:40

they are upset about not being

properly advised and didn't have

1:56:401:56:43

time to plan early enough in their

working careers, and that is the

1:56:431:56:47

injustice they are coming to meet

with most strongly.

Absolutely,

1:56:471:56:51

Madam Deputy Speaker and the Right

Honourable Gentleman with typical

1:56:511:56:58

alacrity has hit the nail on the

head. Nevertheless, there is an

1:56:581:57:03

injustice that needs to be rectified

and the party of government needs to

1:57:031:57:06

do that. I'm going to give away a

couple more times and make more

1:57:061:57:10

progress. I'll give away to the

Gentleman and then once more.

I'm

1:57:101:57:14

grateful for him for giving way and

for securing this debate. Is it his

1:57:141:57:20

contention that the changes in 95

were wrong or in 2011 were wrong?

1:57:201:57:26

Many have met me and feel the 2011

changes were just too rapid.

I think

1:57:261:57:32

the fundamental point made by on

rubble -- members from the

1:57:321:57:39

government side is lack of notice in

relation to the 1995 changes and

1:57:391:57:44

failure to give any notice at all in

some cases. There is an issue there

1:57:441:57:49

of communication. I do believe that

the various groups, and there are a

1:57:491:57:56

number who are campaigning around

this issue, I do believe there is a

1:57:561:58:00

general accident is of the need to

wear equalised state retirement

1:58:001:58:09

pension age, we are not in

disagreement about. But the issue is

1:58:091:58:13

the phasing and acceleration of the

phasing of the original changes ROM

1:58:131:58:16

1995. I'll give away. -- from 95.

I

don't want to disagree with his

1:58:161:58:24

speech but wouldn't he agreed the

equalisation of pension age for this

1:58:241:58:28

group of women isn't fair? Because

in the area they lived, many had to

1:58:281:58:33

be responsible for their children,

had to undermine their career with a

1:58:331:58:38

lower wages and didn't make

allowances for their pensions and

1:58:381:58:41

have since suffered divorce or

break-up. Many coming to me in

1:58:411:58:46

Swansea are literally becoming

impoverished because of this

1:58:461:58:49

changed. It's all very well imagine

in a utopia where there is equal

1:58:491:58:53

opportunity in the where that would

justify an equal pension age but

1:58:531:58:58

that isn't what happened to these

women. And it's quite wrong to say

1:58:581:59:04

it's just about telling them.

Absolutely, and the issue as well is

1:59:041:59:10

falling off the end of a cliff. The

lack of transitional relief to the

1:59:101:59:17

women who were affected and there

are many examples. People who have

1:59:171:59:22

retired, made retirement plans at 60

in order to care for elderly

1:59:221:59:29

relatives, women working in very

arduous employment, physically

1:59:291:59:33

demanding, who really can't work

beyond 60.

1:59:331:59:39

It is a huge injustice affecting 3.8

million women in this country which

1:59:391:59:45

needs to be addressed.

My honourable

friend is being very generous in

1:59:451:59:49

giving way for that just to support

that point I can I quote from a

1:59:491:59:54

woman from Knowsley who was born in

June, 1955. She said my elderly

1:59:541:59:59

mother had a stroke and I

subsequently became her full-time

1:59:592:00:02

carer for that the last ten years of

her life were particularly difficult

2:00:022:00:06

as she needed 24 hour care provided

by me. My own health has suffered

2:00:062:00:11

greatly due to the added pressure

and I now find myself unable to work

2:00:112:00:16

due to ill-health and, at an age

when I should be receiving my state

2:00:162:00:22

pension, and forced to attend

regular appointments at the DWP to

2:00:222:00:28

ascertain my entitlement to ESA.

This is, she says, soul destroying.

2:00:282:00:33

Absolutely.

I make no criticism

whatsoever of the honourable

2:00:332:00:43

gentleman for Easington who is

making a very genuine speech and has

2:00:432:00:47

a great many points to cover. He has

taken a lot of interventions. But I

2:00:472:00:55

do make criticism of people who have

made interventions and will not then

2:00:552:01:00

remain for the rest of this debate

because the convention is that the

2:01:002:01:05

honourable gentleman introducing the

debate should have approximately 15

2:01:052:01:09

minutes. Now, he has so far had a

great deal more than that. I'm not

2:01:092:01:15

blaming him. He has been very decent

in taking points from other people,

2:01:152:01:19

which is good for the pace of the

debate. But the people who are

2:01:192:01:23

making interventions and who will

then just leave the chamber are

2:01:232:01:29

preventing some of the 32 people who

have indicated to me that they wish

2:01:292:01:33

to speak in this debate from having

the chance to do so. I am asking for

2:01:332:01:38

a bit of honour. No more

interventions unless it is from

2:01:382:01:41

people who will remain for the whole

of the debate. The honourable

2:01:412:01:46

gentleman for Easington ought to

bring his remarks to a conclusion

2:01:462:01:49

soon but I'm not going to pressurise

him too much because it is not his

2:01:492:01:54

fault, it is other people's fault

that he is in this position.

I'm

2:01:542:02:03

grateful for your guidance. I will

press on. I recognise many members

2:02:032:02:06

wish to speak in the debate. This is

a time sensitive issue and the

2:02:062:02:08

Government must understand it. I

believe, as my honourable friend has

2:02:082:02:13

indicated, we need to work

cross-party to find a solution. If

2:02:132:02:17

the Government is not able to do

that, I am afraid you will be

2:02:172:02:20

letting down a whole generation of

women who will be denied a fair deal

2:02:202:02:25

in relation to the state pension. In

Easington are 4542 women who are

2:02:252:02:32

affected. The campaign is looking

for justice and not just warm words.

2:02:322:02:37

The suggestion of early access to a

pension credit made by my own front

2:02:372:02:44

bench is a good start and could be

done immediately. As a stand-alone

2:02:442:02:48

option, it does not take into

account that all the 1950s women

2:02:482:02:53

have suffered maladministration and

a loss of income and all deserve

2:02:532:02:56

some recompense. The suggestion put

forward by other honourable members

2:02:562:03:03

of an actuarial reduced pension for

life asks the women who have been

2:03:032:03:08

discriminated against a bear the

cost of putting this mistake right,

2:03:082:03:13

which was not their fault in the

first place. It condemns women to

2:03:132:03:18

retirement in pension poverty, with

all its problems of greater reliance

2:03:182:03:21

on benefits. Arrangements that only

address the additional state pension

2:03:212:03:28

age increases imposed by the 2011

act will start again they are not

2:03:282:03:34

good enough. There are faults with

the application of the 1995 act and

2:03:342:03:40

I do think that the

maladministration suffered by these

2:03:402:03:44

Waspi women is an issue that the

Government will have to address

2:03:442:03:49

sooner or later. They need

recompense and they need to take

2:03:492:03:52

into account the solution that will

bring relief to all of the women

2:03:522:03:57

affected. The Government has

repeatedly stated that it is

2:03:572:04:04

committed to supporting people aged

50 years and over to remain in and

2:04:042:04:08

return to work. There are several

policies and initiatives which have

2:04:082:04:12

been put forward to support people

to work for longer, such as older

2:04:122:04:18

People's champions in Jobcentres,

lifelong learning and apprenticeship

2:04:182:04:22

opportunities for people of all

ages. But I do think suggestions

2:04:222:04:26

completely disregard the issues

which are at the very heart of the

2:04:262:04:32

Waspi campaign. In reality, they are

completely unworkable for the

2:04:322:04:37

majority of Waspi women but such is

the case highlighted by my

2:04:372:04:41

honourable friend for the City of

Durham. May I also add I was

2:04:412:04:45

incredibly disappointed that the

budget didn't offer any form of

2:04:452:04:50

help, any form of relief, to the

Waspi women? I do know that some

2:04:502:04:55

other members opposite, in also

Sarah tea, made representations to

2:04:552:04:58

Chancellor. I was very disappointed

that the Chancellor and the Prime

2:04:582:05:05

Minister did not respond. -- in all

sincerity. I am rather in credit

2:05:052:05:10

list is that the Labour Party, Her

Majesty's opposition, are attacked

2:05:102:05:15

for being weak on women's issues by

the Prime Minister. I am curious to

2:05:152:05:19

find out whether the Prime Minister

who I understand is a Waspi woman,

2:05:192:05:26

did actually received notification

from the DWP about the change in

2:05:262:05:30

pension arrangements. Quite simply,

women born in the 1950s were not

2:05:302:05:35

given sufficient notice by the

Government that their state

2:05:352:05:37

retirement age would being greasing.

And I do want to leave time for

2:05:372:05:43

other members to make contributions.

-- would be increasing. I could go

2:05:432:05:48

on to make more specific examples

but I do not intend to do that.

2:05:482:05:52

Thank you very much. I would like to

move the motion.

The question is, as

2:05:522:05:59

on the order paper. As I indicated

there are a great many people who

2:05:592:06:03

wish to speak. We will have to start

with a time limit of six minutes.

2:06:032:06:09

Ann Marie Trevelyan.

Thank you. I

would like to thank my North East

2:06:092:06:15

colleague, the member for Easington,

for securing this important debate

2:06:152:06:20

yesterday, in Parliament, we

celebrated the centenary of the

2:06:202:06:22

formation of the women's Royal Navy

service. We celebrated and

2:06:222:06:26

remembered the service and sacrifice

of women who have given so much to

2:06:262:06:29

our nation. Today we are yet again

debating the plight of 3.8 million

2:06:292:06:35

women from across the United

Kingdom, who have beaten financially

2:06:352:06:39

impacted by the lack of notice of

pension increases. -- who have been.

2:06:392:06:45

They have quietly contributed to our

nation's economic growth throughout

2:06:452:06:49

their working lives in paid work,

alongside providing the bedrock of

2:06:492:06:54

which our families and children

depend through unpaid parental

2:06:542:07:00

duties, without question. Women who

have created one of the biggest

2:07:002:07:03

campaigns we have witnessed in many

years will stop governments of all

2:07:032:07:07

colours, over two decades, have

failed them. As a believer in the

2:07:072:07:11

power of people peacefully coming

together to campaign for change are

2:07:112:07:14

working together for what they

believe is right, I am completely

2:07:142:07:18

supportive of the Waspi women from

across our country, many here today,

2:07:182:07:23

including two dedicated and

effective campaigners from my own

2:07:232:07:27

constituency who are leading this

campaign. They are giving up all

2:07:272:07:38

their time to voice the concerns of

my 6200 Berwick-upon-Tweed Waspi

2:07:382:07:41

constituents, the 23,800 Waspi women

across Northumberland and the

2:07:412:07:45

thousands across our four nations we

need to remember that all the Waspi

2:07:452:07:49

women have served our nation in many

different forms and guises. We have

2:07:492:07:54

military service personnel, teachers

and the doctors, nurses and

2:07:542:07:58

midwives, accountants, farmers were

lawyers, office workers. They are

2:07:582:08:01

just the ones who have come to me

from my constituency are many

2:08:012:08:07

others. They have been the backbones

of our economy since they started

2:08:072:08:10

work in the 1960s. They have

provided the building blocks which

2:08:102:08:14

have taken our country through

strong economic times and the hard

2:08:142:08:17

ones. We need to keep them in mind

during this debate, not just as one

2:08:172:08:22

big story, but remembering each

individual stories of each Waspi

2:08:222:08:28

women who have come into our

surgeries with problems of hardship.

2:08:282:08:33

I would like to reflect on some of

the problems might Waspi women face

2:08:332:08:39

living in Northumberland for that

there is a strong spirit of

2:08:392:08:42

independence and self sufficiently

in my patch. I sit come to be with

2:08:422:08:49

my Scottish friend today. A long

history of hard work, regardless of

2:08:492:08:53

whether, of which we have much

remains the Walmart of rural

2:08:532:08:58

Northumberland this is particularly

clear in the strength of the women

2:08:582:09:01

who have been to see me you have

raised families alongside a lifetime

2:09:012:09:05

of hard work and have sacrificed to

ensure the future generation has a

2:09:052:09:09

better life than the previous one.

It is very hard for some women who

2:09:092:09:13

have explained this to me in great

detail for ask -- to ask for

2:09:132:09:19

benefits to survive. They were told

they would be receiving the state

2:09:192:09:23

pension they had paid into. It has

now been altered but without due

2:09:232:09:26

time for them to prepare.

I

recognise the type of people she is

2:09:262:09:34

referring to. There are genuine

cases of hardship and women who

2:09:342:09:38

clearly feel they have been

mis-communicated to and, as a

2:09:382:09:43

result, are facing hardship. I would

ask her to continue in her cause.

I

2:09:432:09:49

thank my honourable friend the that

intervention. There may be 3.8

2:09:492:09:53

million of them but these 3.8

individual across our nations. These

2:09:532:09:59

women have worked hard all the lies

that there are incredibly difficult

2:09:592:10:03

circumstances where they are

struggling to survive on what they

2:10:032:10:06

have full because of a lack of

notice to the changes in pensionable

2:10:062:10:10

age, it means financial planning has

been thrown entirely out of kilter.

2:10:102:10:14

These dishes are exacerbated by the

intrinsic problems one faces inroad

2:10:142:10:18

areas for the job opportunities can

be limited and I have met with

2:10:182:10:23

constituents who face age

discrimination in trying to get back

2:10:232:10:26

into the workplace because of these

changes that these challenges

2:10:262:10:29

compounded by the limited or

nonexistent role or public

2:10:292:10:34

transport. Collectivity can be

extremely poor for some people who

2:10:342:10:37

live many miles from a bus stop.

Those without a car was severely

2:10:372:10:42

restricted. The stories of financial

adversity faced by my constituents

2:10:422:10:48

has been beyond frustrating to

listen to stop finding the

2:10:482:10:52

Department for Work and Pensions

unwilling to engage with those of us

2:10:522:10:55

who have brought together your

Parliamentary group for the Waspi

2:10:552:10:58

women to try to build a relationship

for the 3.8 million women. Every

2:10:582:11:03

case is unique. Each woman's

financial situation is different. We

2:11:032:11:07

need to treat each one on its merits

but I would urge the DWP and

2:11:072:11:11

ministers that this needs to be

about how we treat these women. Too

2:11:112:11:17

many women have told me about the

efficiency and inconsistency in

2:11:172:11:22

treatment by the Department. I would

be most grateful for the Pensions

2:11:222:11:25

Minister to tackle the impasse this

campaign seems to have reached in

2:11:252:11:30

his comments later today got up I

have tried hard to bring all parties

2:11:302:11:35

together for a considered and open

discussion in order to bring

2:11:352:11:39

progress to the historic failings.

So far I have been unsuccessful. The

2:11:392:11:44

key question to me is, whatever the

fading in communication about the

2:11:442:11:47

change to be pensionable ages start

late, and regardless of which

2:11:472:11:51

government of whichever colour over

the last 20 years has fell to get

2:11:512:11:54

this right, how do we now start to

work together, to listen to the

2:11:542:11:59

Parliamentary ombudsman and tackle

the failure to deal with complaints

2:11:592:12:03

dealt with by the Waspi women? The

Department has set into place

2:12:032:12:08

rigorous processes for future

pension age changes, which I yet no

2:12:082:12:12

doubt to come. I want to be certain

that we have got, whoever is in

2:12:122:12:20

government, a department that can be

absolutely comfortable and know they

2:12:202:12:24

have a robust process so this can

never happen again. Women rarely

2:12:242:12:29

push themselves forwards. They want

to get on with life and look after

2:12:292:12:33

their families. This situation has

driven them to gather together and

2:12:332:12:37

speak as one voice on behalf of each

other, as much as for themselves. It

2:12:372:12:42

behoves us as their members of

Parliament and the Government asked

2:12:422:12:47

to write historic failings to listen

and work with my constituents to

2:12:472:12:51

find a fair and honest solution. I

urge the minister to meet with me

2:12:512:12:56

and my Northumbrian Waspi ladies to

start that process in the spirit of

2:12:562:13:00

conciliation and understanding.

Like

many in this chamber, I have taken

2:13:002:13:10

part in about seven debates I can

think of over the last two or three

2:13:102:13:14

years and still the Gutman has not

actually done anything about it, nor

2:13:142:13:18

have they listened to what has been

said. -- the Government. It is not

2:13:182:13:23

my intention today to rehash all the

arguments we have put over the last

2:13:232:13:28

seven or eight debates. Can I say

right at the start that we have to

2:13:282:13:34

congratulate the tenacity of the

Waspi women in staying on course to

2:13:342:13:40

get justice? Can I take the

opportunity to congratulate the

2:13:402:13:45

Waspi women from Coventry who have

travelled down here today and the

2:13:452:13:48

other women who have come from all

parts of the country. They should be

2:13:482:13:53

congratulated on that. Some of them

have had to do it at their own

2:13:532:13:56

expense. What I want to do is pick

up one or two points that I think

2:13:562:14:00

really should be emphasised. The

Government had a golden opportunity

2:14:002:14:06

in the budget to do something about

it. They could have made some sort

2:14:062:14:11

of gesture as a halfway house, as it

were, to achieving what the Waspi

2:14:112:14:17

women wanted to achieve. The

Government totally ignored it. At

2:14:172:14:21

the same time, they tell the public

they want to listen to the public

2:14:212:14:24

and the public themselves and a

whole range of issues. The

2:14:242:14:30

Government has used austerities in

some ways to justify not taking any

2:14:302:14:35

action regarding the help for Waspi

women. If they can spend over 50

2:14:352:14:40

billion and 60 billion on high-speed

rayal I am sure they can look at

2:14:402:14:46

spending the money to help these

women. These women were not given

2:14:462:14:50

time to plan for their retirement.

That is the tragedy about it. It is

2:14:502:14:56

important to emphasise this point.

Somebody suggested earlier that was

2:14:562:15:00

not the real point. It is the real

point, along with a resolution to

2:15:002:15:04

the problem. Those are the two main

points. There was suggestion as well

2:15:042:15:10

that Gordon Brown somehow had

something to do with this. We all

2:15:102:15:13

know that is not true. We will not

dwell too much on that. Suffice to

2:15:132:15:18

say it was a John Major government

that introduced this and members

2:15:182:15:21

should bear that in mind. We should

also bear in mind that 53% of the

2:15:212:15:26

Waspi women actually rely on their

pensions to make ends meet.

2:15:262:15:32

Very often many of them look after

elderly parents. Sometimes they've

2:15:342:15:42

got children who actually suffer

from disabilities. People tend to

2:15:422:15:46

forget, a lot of these women look

after their children who are now

2:15:462:15:51

grown up, probably in their 20s.

They have to look after them and

2:15:512:15:55

there is an organisation in Coventry

that does that without any help.

I

2:15:552:16:00

thank him for giving way, I know

that and Potter, my constituent from

2:16:002:16:08

Glasgow and Lanarkshire, who is

watching from home, as well as what

2:16:082:16:14

he mentions, many of these women had

to fight for equal pay and work

2:16:142:16:19

highly physically demanding work.

It's offensive when the government

2:16:192:16:24

on the opposite benches suggests

they should take up apprenticeships

2:16:242:16:27

to fill the gap.

I was going to come

onto that because in the debate last

2:16:272:16:33

week, it was suggested that WASPI

women could deal with

2:16:332:16:36

apprenticeships. I remember that

suggestion in that debate as I'm

2:16:362:16:41

sure others do and makes you wonder

whether the government party really

2:16:412:16:46

takes this seriously. When we look

at the general situation that

2:16:462:16:57

affects women, we should remember to

broaden this out. For example, this

2:16:572:17:01

is the government that wants to

support women, we shouldn't lose

2:17:012:17:06

track of that. Looking at the

taxation adjustments, over the last

2:17:062:17:09

couple of budgets, in actual fact

with austerity, women generally have

2:17:092:17:16

contributed 14 billion in tax

adjustments. Think about that, so

2:17:162:17:21

it's not just the WASPI women I've

talked about but women in general

2:17:212:17:24

terms. Yet this government says it

supports women and when the chance

2:17:242:17:30

comes to put their money where their

mouth is, they don't do that. I have

2:17:302:17:34

spoken to some members recently when

some of the banks when women retire,

2:17:342:17:42

the banks would dock their private

pension from their state pension.

2:17:422:17:47

Some may have signed a resolution,

an early day motion around that and

2:17:472:17:50

it's an issue we are going to

pursue. So, to finish, because I

2:17:502:17:56

know a lot of other people want to

get in, I'll say this. The classic

2:17:562:18:01

example of this government's

meaningless words to women, if you

2:18:012:18:07

look at the women's refuges and the

funding that has been cut from them,

2:18:072:18:11

and you know these refugees are very

often a haven for women who have

2:18:112:18:18

been abused, assaulted and sometimes

raped. The government should think

2:18:182:18:22

about whether it really supports

women. Thank you very much, Madam

2:18:222:18:26

Deputy Speaker.

Scott Mann.

Thank

you, Madam Deputy Speaker and it's a

2:18:262:18:34

pleasure to follow the Right

Honourable member for Coventry South

2:18:342:18:38

and can I congratulate the member

for Easington for bringing forward

2:18:382:18:42

this debate today. I speak on behalf

of my North Cornwall women who I

2:18:422:18:48

have met numerous times during

surgeries and different events in my

2:18:482:18:52

last two and a half years. I

presented a petition on their behalf

2:18:522:18:56

last year and many have come to see

me at the surgery in my towns and

2:18:562:19:00

villages to express their concern of

this challenging times many of these

2:19:002:19:06

people are facing. Other members

have alluded to some of those

2:19:062:19:12

challenges today, most coming to see

me are those who have worked there

2:19:122:19:15

in tyre life and they might well own

their own home and not be in a

2:19:152:19:20

position to make that transition for

18 months. I am a supporter of

2:19:202:19:24

transitional members for our WASPI

women and I believe there is a

2:19:242:19:30

practical solution we can reach by

reducing the state pension over a

2:19:302:19:34

longer period. My own view that the

private providers of pensions

2:19:342:19:38

already allow this through private

pensions and that option should be

2:19:382:19:43

given to people who have public

pensions as well. My view is the

2:19:432:19:49

changes in 2011 were rushed and

wrong and were brought in at speed.

2:19:492:19:56

I believe the equalisation is of

pensions made in 1995 was the right

2:19:562:20:01

thing to do but I do accept there

are cases for the two months - 18

2:20:012:20:08

months because there are people who

have suffered in different ways

2:20:082:20:11

through this and we should

acknowledge that. My view is people

2:20:112:20:17

should be able to take their pension

late or have the option to wait and

2:20:172:20:24

have the £159 a week as it currently

sits. So, I have done some figures

2:20:242:20:32

and my benchmark figures are based

on the life expectancy of a woman in

2:20:322:20:36

the UK as being 83, which is

currently sits at the moment. And

2:20:362:20:42

the pension age previously in 1995

at 66. At the moment, the state

2:20:422:20:49

pension is £159 a week. Over the 17

years leading up to life expectancy,

2:20:492:20:55

the pension would cost £141,000,

just over it. I've done some

2:20:552:21:00

modelling based on £130 a week, £140

a week and £150 a week or a reduced

2:21:002:21:09

pension over a longer period of

time. I've also used the baseline to

2:21:092:21:13

measure that against the least

affected women, those affected for

2:21:132:21:17

two months and those who have been

affected over the 18 month period.

2:21:172:21:22

The conclusions overreached

according to the figures is the only

2:21:222:21:26

group that would be affected if

these proposals that I've put

2:21:262:21:30

together over the last few days are

put into place would be the people

2:21:302:21:34

that are the most affected, those

who have the 18 month periods away.

2:21:342:21:40

Even on those proposals, it would

only mean the government would have

2:21:402:21:45

to find 2003 and £57 over the

lifetime of that particular pension.

2:21:452:21:51

All the other models come out in a

positive way to the government. I

2:21:512:21:55

would just say in my own view, I

think this is something we should do

2:21:552:21:59

and there is a gesture we should

make to the women who have been

2:21:592:22:02

affected. I would ask the Minister

to sit down with me and look through

2:22:022:22:07

these figures to see if there is a

satisfactory solution to this

2:22:072:22:12

current problem. I'm happy to meet

with the ministry if he is happy to

2:22:122:22:16

meet with me. We should consider a

sensible way forward. I'm not

2:22:162:22:20

entirely sure I will be here for the

windups but I welcome the

2:22:202:22:27

opportunity to meet with the

Minister at a later date to discuss

2:22:272:22:31

how we can practically take this

solution forward.

2:22:312:22:35

Carolyn Harris.

Can I congratulate

my honourable friend forces during

2:22:362:22:42

this really important debate. Can I

say to the government one more time,

2:22:422:22:49

you really need to stop burying your

head is in the sand and do the right

2:22:492:22:52

thing by these women. Because yet

again, we have the same point,

2:22:522:22:57

debating the unfairness and

injustice to the 1950s women as a

2:22:572:23:01

consequence to the changes to the

pension. Without the time to prepare

2:23:012:23:06

and make the necessary alternative

arrangements, so many women born in

2:23:062:23:10

the 1950s are left in financial

despair. The reality is the women

2:23:102:23:14

are desperate. I have women who are

affected: office, write to me,

2:23:142:23:21

e-mail me every day, let me know

they have had to sell their

2:23:212:23:26

belongings and are relying on

family, friends and food banks just

2:23:262:23:29

exist. Over 2.5 million women have

been wronged by this injustice,

2:23:292:23:35

that's 2.5 million voices that will

not be ignored and 2.5 million that

2:23:352:23:39

won't go away. The changes to the

Pensions Act 2011 gave people in

2:23:392:23:48

sufficient time to prepare for

retirement causing hardship for

2:23:482:23:52

certain groups. Those below average

age expectancy and those who depend

2:23:522:23:56

more on state pension in retirement,

those more likely to suffer from

2:23:562:24:01

health problems or disability, and

those who have to care for elderly

2:24:012:24:05

parents, husbands and grandchildren.

Limiting their ability to work at

2:24:052:24:09

home and beyond 65. For some of

these women, their jobs are

2:24:092:24:14

physically demanding and because of

their health, they can no longer do

2:24:142:24:17

the things they were able to do when

younger. And our own Minister

2:24:172:24:22

believes apprenticeships and

available work is to these women, I

2:24:222:24:28

believe that is a insult. Data for

women over 65 believe unemployment

2:24:282:24:35

benefits increased between 2013 and

2017, more so than the total number

2:24:352:24:41

of claimants...

Do you not agree

with all of that, there are still

2:24:412:24:45

those of inconsistencies such as

one-year change of the date of birth

2:24:452:24:50

means three years change for the

pension, making it even more logical

2:24:502:24:54

way the government introduced this?

My thoughts of that have been put on

2:24:542:24:59

record many times and I agree with

Mike Right Honourable friend. Data

2:24:592:25:03

for women aged 60 plus had

unemployment benefits between 2013

2:25:032:25:10

and 2017, more so than the total

number of claimants for all other

2:25:102:25:14

dangers. The number of women aged 60

plus claiming benefit increased by

2:25:142:25:19

around 9500 as a 115% increase and

pension ages changes have played a

2:25:192:25:27

substantial part in that increase.

It is crucial that this government

2:25:272:25:32

recognises the need for fair

transitional state pension

2:25:322:25:35

arrangements. Yet the government is

still not listening, they've

2:25:352:25:40

deceived these women, stolen their

security and shattered their dreams.

2:25:402:25:47

In September, myself and the

co-chair, the on rubble member for

2:25:472:25:53

East Worthing and Shoreham tackled

the subject which will be prepared

2:25:532:26:00

for 2018. The committee launched

recently a consultation to gather

2:26:002:26:07

opinions from the women affected and

the number of responses to our

2:26:072:26:10

questionnaire within the first few

hours was staggering. To date, we

2:26:102:26:14

have nearly 90 responses from groups

representing very many thousands of

2:26:142:26:20

women. These women are those who are

living with the consequence of the

2:26:202:26:26

pension changes, and these are the

women whose voices will be heard. I

2:26:262:26:33

have personally met with many women,

both in my constituency and as chair

2:26:332:26:37

of the APG G, I have visited many

constituencies around the country to

2:26:372:26:43

speak to these women affected. Most

recently, I have been to visit with

2:26:432:26:47

my friend from Rhondda. And my

office is currently dealing with

2:26:472:26:53

requests for me to visit 1950s

women's groups in Scotland, northern

2:26:532:26:58

England and right across Wales. And

wherever I go, the story is always

2:26:582:27:03

the same. These women feel cheated,

disrespected and they are angry. And

2:27:032:27:10

every meeting is packed. Not one of

these women has any intention of

2:27:102:27:14

giving up until they get the result

they have learnt and they deserve.

2:27:142:27:19

-- they have earned. Transitional

payments that will allow them to

2:27:192:27:25

enjoy their retirements that they

have spent many years working hard

2:27:252:27:29

for. What about those 1950s women

but left that this country to work

2:27:292:27:34

in other parts of Europe, not only

concerned how their lives will pan

2:27:342:27:38

out after Brexit, but are currently

feeling extremely vulnerable and

2:27:382:27:43

left out in the cold when it to

their pensions. These women have not

2:27:432:27:48

got an MP to voice their concerns,

so they have contacted me and I'm

2:27:482:27:52

sure many in this Chamber to ask

what is happening to their pensions?

2:27:522:27:57

When they left this country, they

left it believing they could get

2:27:572:28:01

their pension at 60 and they are

feeling they have been robbed also.

2:28:012:28:06

But across this House, so many

colleagues agree that the changes to

2:28:062:28:10

state pension are unjust and unfair.

So, it really is time for the

2:28:102:28:15

government to stop blocking their

ears, to start listening, let these

2:28:152:28:23

women have justice and do the right

and honourable thing and give these

2:28:232:28:29

WASPI women and all 1950s women what

they deserve, transitional payments.

2:28:292:28:34

Peter Aldous.

Thank you...

CHEERING

.

They love you, Peter!

Me?

Just

2:28:342:28:51

before the Gentleman begins his

speech, let us make it very clear

2:28:512:28:55

that we don't have cheering and

clapping in any part of this

2:28:552:28:58

Chamber. We do have hear, hear,

smiles and laughs, but we don't have

2:28:582:29:08

cheering and clapping. Peter Aldous.

Thank you, due to my cold, I will

2:29:082:29:17

not be able to speak as passionately

and as loudly as the Lady I have

2:29:172:29:21

followed. I congratulate my friend

from Easington for securing this

2:29:212:29:26

debate, playing an important role in

continuing to highlight the

2:29:262:29:30

difficult situation in which many

women born on or after the 6th of

2:29:302:29:35

April 1950 find themselves as a

result of the changes to the state

2:29:352:29:39

pension age in the 1995 and 2011

pensions act.

2:29:392:29:47

This is an unfairness that needs to

be addressed and we do need to get

2:29:472:29:50

on with finding a solution. I fully

support the case for equalising the

2:29:502:29:55

retirement age and the need to raise

the pension age. That is required on

2:29:552:30:00

the grounds of increased life

expectancy and financial

2:30:002:30:05

sustainability. However, such

changes have a profound impact on

2:30:052:30:09

people and the lives that they live

will stop they need to be properly

2:30:092:30:15

researched the subject to full

consultation, and then introduced in

2:30:152:30:18

a fully transparent way. These

steps, Madam Deputy Speaker, have

2:30:182:30:25

not been taken in this instance.

Even though the pensions act

2:30:252:30:28

providing for the pensioners aged

increase for women from 60 to 65 was

2:30:282:30:36

enacted in 1995, government waited

14 years until April, 2009, before

2:30:362:30:44

they began writing individually to

the women affected. This lack of

2:30:442:30:50

notification mentioned they had no

time to make all talented

2:30:502:30:53

arrangements to their retirement. At

the time of the 2011 act, it was

2:30:532:31:00

clear there was a problem. Women

were raising their concerns with me.

2:31:002:31:06

As a result, the Government did make

changes to limit the impact on those

2:31:062:31:11

most affected. With hindsight,

looking back, it is clear that the

2:31:112:31:15

full scale of the problem was not

recognised and legislation should

2:31:152:31:21

have been preceded by a fall impact

assessment. Waspis briefing for the

2:31:212:31:31

debate highlights the balance these

women face in mitigating the sudden

2:31:312:31:36

change in their circumstances. Many

have no other source of income and,

2:31:362:31:41

until the 1990s, many women were not

allowed to join company pension

2:31:412:31:48

schemes that many women face

difficulties returning to the

2:31:482:31:51

workplace. Many are on the

expectation of an earlier

2:31:512:31:57

retirement, have taken on caring

responsibilities and some divorce

2:31:572:32:00

settlements were calculated on the

assumption that the state pension

2:32:002:32:04

age was going to be received

earlier. In 2016, there is a

2:32:042:32:13

compelling case as to why this

matter needs to be revisited. The

2:32:132:32:19

message from the wave any

constituency and from Suffolk is

2:32:192:32:22

that this is a situation that must

be addressed. -- Waveney. When many

2:32:222:32:26

of us presented petitions in this

chamber last autumn, I was second

2:32:262:32:32

behind the Honourable member for

whole north in terms of the people

2:32:322:32:37

who signed up. 2249 Waveney

constituents. Last year,

2:32:372:32:45

Conservative run Waveney District

Council unanimously endorsed this

2:32:452:32:50

petition and last week, Conservative

run Suffolk County Council

2:32:502:32:54

unanimously backed the campaign for

equality of pension provision for

2:32:542:32:57

women. In Suffolk, there has been a

tradition of women going out to

2:32:572:33:06

work, whether in factories,

agriculture, fishing, and clerical

2:33:062:33:12

posts. Often part-time and on low

salaries. These changes are

2:33:122:33:17

disproportionately affecting a lot

of them and their families. I will

2:33:172:33:22

give way.

I thank the Honourable

member for giving way. I hope the

2:33:222:33:26

Honourable member will forgive me

and I hope Madam Deputy Speaker will

2:33:262:33:30

forgive me. I just wanted to say you

have my full support and the reason

2:33:302:33:34

I am not speaking in this debate is

simply because there were so many

2:33:342:33:38

other people speaking. The whole of

Suffolk is behind you on this one.

I

2:33:382:33:44

am grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker,

for that endorsement from Suffolk. I

2:33:442:33:49

acknowledge the challenges the

Government faces in finding a way

2:33:492:33:52

forward that is both affordable and

complies with equalities

2:33:522:33:58

legislation. However, it is clear

that a particular group of people

2:33:582:34:03

have been unfairly penalised. I'd

thus support the motion and I urge

2:34:032:34:07

the Government to find a way forward

that is there, fully considered, and

2:34:072:34:13

affordable. Thank you, Madam Deputy

Speaker.

Thank you very much, Madam

2:34:132:34:20

Deputy Speaker. I would like to

congratulate my Honourable friend

2:34:202:34:32

for Easington for securing this

debate. The manner in which the

2:34:322:34:36

pension change is totally unjust. It

is unfair and in my opinion in

2:34:362:34:40

moral. It has short-changed 2.6

million women and cause damage to

2:34:402:34:47

families for them it is extremely

important we do acknowledge this is

2:34:472:34:51

impacting on families. Women are

moving back in with their children

2:34:512:34:54

and it is leaving to marital

breakdowns. There are all. Is linked

2:34:542:34:59

to these financial burdens are women

are facing. Previously, during Prime

2:34:592:35:04

Minister's Questions, I mentioned my

constituent Diana Kendall. She

2:35:042:35:07

suffered a bleed on the brain in

2012. Have carried on working under

2:35:072:35:12

the assumption she would be able to

retire in September of this year.

2:35:122:35:22

She was not told of the changeable.

She has had to carry on working

2:35:222:35:25

because she does not have the money

in order to retire. When I asked the

2:35:252:35:28

Prime Minister when she would be

able to retire, I was told yet again

2:35:282:35:31

she would wait no more than 18

months. She is waiting six years.

2:35:312:35:34

That is the reality of what was

wrong with the Prime Minister's

2:35:342:35:39

answer. Diana has carried on running

her business, has carried on

2:35:392:35:43

working, won't be able to give up

working, but yet the Government

2:35:432:35:49

seemed completely disinterested,

even with women who have major

2:35:492:35:52

health issues in terms of helping

them be able to retire. Further to

2:35:522:35:58

that, I have constituents with

arthritis, heart conditions,

2:35:582:36:01

mobility problems, who have had to

deal with the hike in the state

2:36:012:36:06

pension age to stop despite finding

it extremely difficult to work, they

2:36:062:36:09

have been forced to work. This is

unacceptable on a group of women

2:36:092:36:13

born in a time when employment

rights, support for national

2:36:132:36:22

insurance contributions, maternity

rights simply did not exist. And it

2:36:222:36:26

is deeply unfair that these women

are facing yet another injustice. As

2:36:262:36:31

part of my work as secretary, I have

spoken to women in my own

2:36:312:36:38

constituency and women in other

constituencies have contacted me

2:36:382:36:41

with countless lists of problems

they are facing for the women who

2:36:412:36:44

say they own their own home but they

are selling their furniture. How can

2:36:442:36:49

ministers justify these things which

are happening to women who have

2:36:492:36:53

worked, in some cases, for 40 years,

and they are not to be told they

2:36:532:36:57

cannot retire when are expecting to?

The answer is, simply carry on. Only

2:36:572:37:03

wait 18 months. It is not true,

Madam Deputy Speaker. Beyond this

2:37:032:37:09

House, it is not just the women

campaigning born in the 1950s, there

2:37:092:37:13

is a huge amount of support from the

public. There is also support from

2:37:132:37:17

members across the House. No less

than 50 government MPs support the

2:37:172:37:23

campaign, as well as colleagues from

the DUP and SNP, liberal and Plaid

2:37:232:37:32

colleagues. If there were

legislative time to reverse these

2:37:322:37:36

decisions, we would win full so

isn't it time the Government stepped

2:37:362:37:39

up, offered support to these women,

because there is support across the

2:37:392:37:44

House full support and change to the

1950s women. My honourable friend

2:37:442:37:49

for Swansea East said, I held a

meeting for women across my

2:37:492:37:55

constituency, many of whom still not

aware of the pension changes that

2:37:552:37:59

are happening to them and have only

recently become informed of them

2:37:592:38:02

because the campaign is being led by

1950s women. Over 100 of them turned

2:38:022:38:07

up full top some of them raised new

issues. For example, when some were

2:38:072:38:12

deciding to defer their pension,

which is their right, they had not

2:38:122:38:15

actually realise they would be

entitled to it to match or years

2:38:152:38:18

before. Only when they would come

and being gauged in the process that

2:38:182:38:26

they realise they should have had it

two years before. Because of no

2:38:262:38:28

information on no letters telling

women about the changes they have

2:38:282:38:31

not been aware of the fact they

actually had a deferment which was

2:38:312:38:36

forced, whether they want to defer

it or not. I believe, truly believe

2:38:362:38:41

that the tide is turning and the

pressure on government, I hope, the

2:38:412:38:45

Government ministers are actually

listening to what is going on out in

2:38:452:38:49

the country, that these women are

actually suffering. We need the

2:38:492:38:54

Government to step up, caving,

bringing legislative time to

2:38:542:38:57

actually make changes to support the

two and a half million women. I will

2:38:572:39:02

always continue fighting for the

women of my constituency affected by

2:39:022:39:06

this and women up and down this

country. The Government needs to

2:39:062:39:09

listen. I urge Conservative members

to come with us, to get the

2:39:092:39:15

Government to change its mind and to

start supporting these 1950s women

2:39:152:39:20

who need our support now.

I

congratulate the member for

2:39:202:39:29

Easington for bringing this

important subject forward. I have

2:39:292:39:33

great pleasure in following the

member for Ogmore. Now, I too have

2:39:332:39:39

met with Waspi women and we have

heard a lot of in Suffolk, as my

2:39:392:39:46

honourable friend has discussed. It

is a real prevalent issue for many

2:39:462:39:50

women. I have also discovered that

stories differ. I think it is really

2:39:502:39:56

important to treat people as

individuals on their journey through

2:39:562:39:59

life. We do not necessarily serve

all our population well, to lump

2:39:592:40:05

everything together as we are

discussing this matter. So, I think,

2:40:052:40:12

the primary thing I am understanding

is that no matter what the hue of

2:40:122:40:16

government, there needs to be

clarity and information as it is

2:40:162:40:20

passed down, about these important

issues. There is blame across the

2:40:202:40:25

piste, as far as people not getting

the information. In many cases, they

2:40:252:40:31

are saying to me that letters were

received. I have no reason to think

2:40:312:40:36

they were received. There is a

problem there in ensuring people are

2:40:362:40:39

properly informed. I will give way

to my honourable friend from the

2:40:392:40:49

South.

I thank my honourable friend

for giving way was that would she

2:40:492:40:56

agree with me that it is absolutely

important that this generation of

2:40:562:41:00

women who have been affected because

these letters, some saw them, some

2:41:002:41:05

did not, some did not receive them,

and they have not been able to make

2:41:052:41:09

plans for their retirement. The next

generation of women will know

2:41:092:41:11

exactly what is coming. We have done

some alterations but the Government

2:41:112:41:15

needs to be more generous than has

been for this particular group of

2:41:152:41:20

women.

I would agree with my

honourable friend that I would also

2:41:202:41:25

say that, for those of us who were

in our late 40s when we received

2:41:252:41:29

those letters, because I did receive

a letter, proves they do work, in

2:41:292:41:37

2011, 2000 12. I took a 10% hit in

my working life. I will be working

2:41:372:41:45

too, I think, 67 actually. Granted,

but I had a great deal of my life

2:41:452:41:51

looking after children and so on and

I am not in any way undermining that

2:41:512:41:54

I have had in my surgery women who

have particularly those who have

2:41:542:41:59

been carers, of which I think there

is a broader issue across many

2:41:592:42:02

departments and across governments,

but also individuals who made life

2:42:022:42:10

decisions prior to 2010. For that, I

have lobbied the minister and he has

2:42:102:42:13

discussed with me at length the fact

that there are individual women, one

2:42:132:42:19

in particular who was a midwife. She

went off and did five years work

2:42:192:42:24

overseas for charity in 2010,

predicating her decision on the

2:42:242:42:30

information she went with. OK. Now,

when she came back, not only did it

2:42:302:42:35

impact on the fact that she had had

those five years serving other

2:42:352:42:40

people but she also found that it

affected her burgess of her

2:42:402:42:46

midwifery qualification. When she

went to return to work, her

2:42:462:42:49

position, that job she could apply

for was compromised. There were

2:42:492:42:57

genuine cases. I move on to the fact

that treating everybody in this

2:42:572:43:04

universal way, perhaps, misses some

of the importance of what we are

2:43:042:43:07

trying to discuss.

I thank my

honourable friend for giving way. I

2:43:072:43:15

have lobbied the minister on this as

well. I pay tribute to the Waspi

2:43:152:43:21

women who have presented a petition

here. Exactly the position around

2:43:212:43:26

caring for that many of these women

are unable to correct or because

2:43:262:43:29

they are already taking on a caring

responsibility now. It is very much

2:43:292:43:34

impact on what they can do

financially.

I thank my honourable

2:43:342:43:38

friend the who I know works and

stinking lethal carers up and down

2:43:382:43:44

the country for raising that point.

I would say this is a broader

2:43:442:43:48

discussion about how we value

carers. -- unstintingly for carers.

2:43:482:43:59

I would also thank Goering Davis,

who brought up the case that a lot

2:43:592:44:05

of these women work in active. I

would gently say those issues are

2:44:052:44:13

issues that women, whether in their

50s, 40s, 30s or 20s, are dealing

2:44:132:44:18

with across the piste. Making a

specific case, women tend to bear

2:44:182:44:23

the brunt with these things. There

are challenges in Rowell areas, as

2:44:232:44:27

my honourable friend for

Berwick-upon-Tweed said. -- rural

2:44:272:44:31

areas. My honourable friend from

Waverley brought up the issues with

2:44:312:44:37

financial services and banks not

playing their part in being a

2:44:372:44:40

conduit of information for women. --

Waveney. I would just like to say

2:44:402:44:47

that the series of events which led

to this situation, and the fact that

2:44:472:44:52

we have all found ourselves learning

that communication should be done

2:44:522:44:57

better, at the nub of this is the

fact that we have a problem. 24

2:44:572:45:03

letters were sent from the Queen in

1917 to say that women were turning

2:45:032:45:09

100. 24,000 last year. By 2050, 50

6000 people will celebrate.

2:45:092:45:21

The prediction in our county is by

2039, the majority of people in the

2:45:212:45:26

county will be over 65, this is an

almost extraordinary change in

2:45:262:45:30

society and we have to accept the

costs that come with it.

Indeed,

2:45:302:45:34

which moves me on to essentially the

nub of the point that I would like

2:45:342:45:41

to make. That is the fact that many

of us come to this place as women,

2:45:412:45:49

as carers. My husband and I still

have four parents alive, which is

2:45:492:45:57

great. A sign of improved medical

care. We have four children who

2:45:572:46:02

arguably will bear the brunt of

paying for this. And I recently

2:46:022:46:07

spoke to a woman in one of my

surgeries who is affected by the

2:46:072:46:14

pension age, who said, was born in

1956. I have been fortunate to work

2:46:142:46:18

all my life and I do take that point

on board. In a variety of careers I

2:46:182:46:23

have enjoyed. Some of these were

once that she explained was

2:46:232:46:33

sometimes done out of necessity of

circumstance. She was warned that

2:46:332:46:37

her state pension age, in two

letters, that it would be changing

2:46:372:46:42

and she will receive her state

pension age at 66. 62 next birthday

2:46:422:46:48

and even in receipt pension, she

would struggle to stop working and

2:46:482:46:52

she really her current job. This is

what I mean about treating it on a

2:46:522:46:58

more individual basis. I appreciate

I am fortunate, I have good health,

2:46:582:47:02

something that has been referred to

on several occasions. I understand I

2:47:022:47:06

have a supportive husband and three

lovely children, but I expect to

2:47:062:47:09

live longer than my parents, but my

perception is my children struggle

2:47:092:47:13

more financially than I did at their

age. I realise my taxes contributed

2:47:132:47:19

to my parents pension and is my

children's taxes will bond mine. I

2:47:192:47:25

find it difficult to accept my

financially challenged children will

2:47:252:47:30

contribute to my pension for many

more years, it does not seem fair.

2:47:302:47:34

If we do not see through these

changes, the burden our children

2:47:342:47:38

will take is really quite

astronomical. It isn't fair, but it

2:47:382:47:42

is where we find ourselves. We must

ensure that we are proportionate in

2:47:422:47:48

our response. Yes, it is about

choices and I would very gently say

2:47:482:47:56

to the member for East Renfrewshire,

is it? Paisley and East

2:47:562:48:01

Renfrewshire. But the Scottish

National Party do have the ability

2:48:012:48:05

to make this unilateral decision if

they wanted to.

2:48:052:48:13

While I would agree, is it not that

we should be looking at this for all

2:48:132:48:21

women in the United Kingdom, rather

than saying, you can do it there and

2:48:212:48:25

you can do it that? This is a UK

wide problem.

Order! The honourable

2:48:252:48:32

lady has been very generous in

giving into dungeons, but she has

2:48:322:48:34

run out of time.

-- interventions.

Thank you, Madam Deputy chair.

2:48:342:48:42

Everyone is running out of time so I

am reducing the time limits to five

2:48:422:48:46

minutes. Liz twist.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can

2:48:462:48:52

I declare an interest as one of

those 1950s born women directly

2:48:522:48:59

affected by changes to the state

pension age? But unlike many of

2:48:592:49:06

them, I am fortunate to be able to

raise this issue in this chamber.

2:49:062:49:11

The fact is that many of these 1950s

born women have been hit not just

2:49:112:49:16

once, but twice by changes to the

state pension age. First, those of

2:49:162:49:22

us born in the 1950s were hit by an

equalisation of the state pension

2:49:222:49:25

age to that of men with transitional

arrangements in place according to

2:49:252:49:30

date of birth, up to 2020. Sadly,

the Government at that time did not

2:49:302:49:35

see fit to tell others, the women

affected, about the change. And many

2:49:352:49:41

remained unaware, looking forward to

receiving their state pension at 60.

2:49:412:49:46

Until that time approached and they

were devastated to find the

2:49:462:49:50

financial ground shifting beneath

their feet as they approached 60.

2:49:502:49:53

And in 2011, the Coalition

Government sped up the changes so

2:49:532:49:58

state pension age for women reached

had -- 65 by 2018 with an increase

2:49:582:50:04

in the state pension age for men and

women to 66 by April 2020. Leaving

2:50:042:50:12

many women completely unable to make

up that financial gap even if they

2:50:122:50:15

were aware of the earlier changes,

which many were not. How ironic that

2:50:152:50:21

measures designed to increase state

pension equality should have such a

2:50:212:50:26

discriminatory effect on women in

particular. And it has indeed had a

2:50:262:50:33

discriminatory effect, as many

1950s-b on women face real hardship.

2:50:332:50:39

And I want to refer to two women out

of the thousands in my constituency

2:50:392:50:43

whose cases struck me. Like Barbara,

I knocked on her door during the

2:50:432:50:50

election campaign, she had worked

all her life and was working until

2:50:502:50:53

before I knocked on her door. But

she had worked for BHS, British home

2:50:532:50:59

stores. Following the collapse of

that company, she found herself

2:50:592:51:03

without a state pension and in a

classic double whammy without a

2:51:032:51:07

company pension. At that stage. All

like the woman who approached me in

2:51:072:51:13

a shopping centre quite unsolicited,

who said, we need to do something.

2:51:132:51:19

She says she had retired early to

look after her mother. Thinking she

2:51:192:51:24

would get her state pension at 60.

Only to find out at the death of her

2:51:242:51:29

mother that she could not get her

pension and she had to rely on

2:51:292:51:32

benefits and family support. After

working most of her life. These

2:51:322:51:38

cases are not unique. So this issue

is not going to go away. And I can

2:51:382:51:42

tell you that many women still

contact me to say they have joined

2:51:422:51:47

the campaign, they have registered

cases for maladministration with the

2:51:472:51:51

DWP, leading to more of a backlog

with the independent complaints

2:51:512:51:58

Examiner considering this issue. So

where do we go from here? The

2:51:582:52:02

Government must address this issue

as a matter of urgency. I have no

2:52:022:52:07

doubt we'll hear about the measures

the Government has in place to help

2:52:072:52:12

people into work or into

apprenticeships. That is great. Any

2:52:122:52:15

woman who wants to work, that is

fabulous and is able to do so. Many

2:52:152:52:23

women through circumstances are not

able to do that. They were not

2:52:232:52:27

expecting these changes and find

themselves unable to work having not

2:52:272:52:29

after parents or family. And

frankly, in a competitive jobs

2:52:292:52:36

market, it is just not that easy for

1950s-born women to find work.

2:52:362:52:43

On this matter of measures the

government has taken Canada she not

2:52:432:52:47

agree with me whatever measures the

Government may have taken, they have

2:52:472:52:52

not worked and they have not

answered the problem and continuing

2:52:522:52:55

sense of injustice which is still

there and that is why we're here

2:52:552:53:00

today?

I think the Honourable

Members about intervention and yes,

2:53:002:53:03

I most do agree. What I am saying is

that I am asking the Government to

2:53:032:53:10

meet the WASPI campaigners, to

explore solutions, looking at

2:53:102:53:15

transitional state pension

arrangements. And to make resolving

2:53:152:53:19

this issue a priority for the 3.8

million women affected by these

2:53:192:53:23

changes. This is a campaign powered

by women. Women who are showing

2:53:232:53:31

determination and courage in the

campaign. And I commend all of those

2:53:312:53:36

women who are determined that this

cause will be addressed.

2:53:362:53:45

It is a great pleasure to speaking

this debate and eight congratulate

2:53:452:53:49

the member for bringing it forward,

I have had a considerable amount of

2:53:492:53:55

correspondence on this from ladies

in Suffolk affected by it, I don't

2:53:552:53:57

know if they are in the chamber

today. As everyone quite rightly is

2:53:572:54:02

focusing on the specific issue of

that cohort of women, I wanted to

2:54:022:54:05

look at what is the long-term

implications for the state pension

2:54:052:54:09

system of this issue. The question

we need to ask is, is it really fit

2:54:092:54:14

for purpose, do we have a state

pension system that delivers any

2:54:142:54:18

longer? And the key thing is this,

we have a pay-as-you-go system. What

2:54:182:54:24

is the most common admit we hear

from ladies who have been affected

2:54:242:54:28

by these changes? It is this, I have

paid in my contributions all my

2:54:282:54:33

life, it is my pension pot. They

believe they have paid in that many

2:54:332:54:36

so they have a contract of what they

should receive in return. The

2:54:362:54:41

problem is this. There is no such

part. None of us in the state

2:54:412:54:45

pension system have a pot with our

name on it, we have a pay-as-you-go

2:54:452:54:49

system. This month's National

Insurance contributions paid this

2:54:492:54:54

month's pension liabilities into the

state system and I am afraid that

2:54:542:54:58

system is extremely vulnerable in

the face of demographic change.

2:54:582:55:01

Always give way to the honourable

lady.

Very grateful to my former

2:55:012:55:06

committee colleague! I would like to

ask, it is it the same pay-as-you-go

2:55:062:55:10

system for the DUP to remain in

power?

That is not the function of

2:55:102:55:15

the state pension system and I will

resist the bait she tries to get me

2:55:152:55:19

to rise to. In my view, it is

important to remember the cost of

2:55:192:55:24

this. The DWP is the largest part of

the state pension, 111 billion, the

2:55:242:55:33

biggest part of expenditure, you

bring a state pension of £160 a

2:55:332:55:40

week, not exactly a King's ransom.

Pensioner poverty would be far

2:55:402:55:44

higher if it was not for the fact we

have a generation of pensioners,

2:55:442:55:48

many of whom are fortunate enough to

have occupational pensions and good

2:55:482:55:52

luck to them, my parents from that

generation, and many owned property

2:55:522:55:57

and equity people over 65 in housing

is about £1.5 trillion. Net

2:55:572:56:04

generation had been cautioned and of

course by the actions of this

2:56:042:56:07

Government, and protecting pension

benefits and bringing in the

2:56:072:56:12

triple-lock, all of which has

protected expenditure on the state

2:56:122:56:19

pension from necessary savings in

other departments. I will give way.

2:56:192:56:25

I beg the honourable member, but

would he not agree with me that

2:56:252:56:28

regardless of the figures he quoted,

the people paying the price for this

2:56:282:56:32

women born in the 1950s?

My point

was going to be that everyone will

2:56:322:56:37

end up paying the price. Of course

this debate is about a specific

2:56:372:56:42

cohort that have been hit quite

directly under that a specific

2:56:422:56:45

period of time, there is the issue

of notification. But young people

2:56:452:56:49

going to work know about the

retirement age changing, they have

2:56:492:56:53

got notification, it does not mean

they can save adequately for their

2:56:532:56:56

pension or they can afford one or

get a foot on the housing ladder and

2:56:562:56:59

there will probably not have an

occupational pension. We cannot look

2:56:592:57:03

at this in isolation, we need to

look at the entire system.

One more

2:57:032:57:07

intervention. Would he agree with me

that we must get away from the

2:57:072:57:12

language of talking about the women

born in the 1950s as though they

2:57:122:57:15

some kind of burden on society?

These women are only asking for what

2:57:152:57:20

they were promised and what they

themselves have paid for, they are

2:57:202:57:23

not a burden, they are people

looking for justice.

No one is

2:57:232:57:28

saying that. And my point is that

precisely what the honourable

2:57:282:57:32

lady... When they say they have paid

it, it isn't just a mathematical

2:57:322:57:36

fact. The system is not designed for

this ageing population and the

2:57:362:57:43

demographic change we have and the

duty on us in government is to be

2:57:432:57:47

open and honest and try and come up

with reforms to address it. In my

2:57:472:57:50

view, and it is a big deal, we

should try and move to a funded

2:57:502:57:55

pension system. Let's be honest,

that is not a minor detail. If the

2:57:552:57:58

Minister went to his officials and

said, what do you think of that?

2:57:582:58:03

They would say, sit down, put a wet

flannel on your head, have a go with

2:58:032:58:06

tea and move onto the next issue. It

is not a minor deal. The only

2:58:062:58:10

government that has ever moved from

a pay-as-you-go system to a funded

2:58:102:58:15

one is Pinochet in Chile and he did

not have to worry about rebellions!

2:58:152:58:21

It is extremely difficult because

you have to pay twice. A generation

2:58:212:58:25

has to pay twice. I believe it can

be done. There are two proposals on

2:58:252:58:29

this. In 1997, our party in the

general election proposed Basic

2:58:292:58:35

pension plus, Peter Lilley came up

with a system moving from the

2:58:352:58:38

current state pension to a funded

one. It would have been fully in

2:58:382:58:43

place by 2040. 23 years from now,

the liability of the state pension

2:58:432:58:47

would have fallen dramatically. If

you look at the OBR, the forecast 50

2:58:472:58:52

years from today for public spending

at current prices is an extra 156

2:58:522:58:59

billion. Now, that is mainly because

of demographic change and higher

2:58:592:59:02

costs of health care, more complex

health needs. That is an

2:59:022:59:06

extraordinary position to be in and

as they say, that is not remotely

2:59:062:59:10

sustainable. The option we have

heard from my honourable friend the

2:59:102:59:15

member for Weston-Super-Mare, any

funded state pension is effectively

2:59:152:59:18

a sovereign wealth fund, a welly of

taking the money we pay into

2:59:182:59:25

unproductive state pension system

and investing into the country's

2:59:252:59:28

productive knees, boosting

productivity and investment and

2:59:282:59:31

giving a greater return and greater

ownership to people in an age when I

2:59:312:59:35

think the ownership in the

capitalist system is something under

2:59:352:59:38

threat. So there are huge benefits

to be had. The savings ratio is

2:59:382:59:43

extremely low and this is one of the

most worrying thing is in the budget

2:59:432:59:46

we have just heard. What we do know

is that if you have a system which

2:59:462:59:51

effectively forces people to save

from a younger age, it is very

2:59:512:59:54

effective, that is what we have had

with the new system that has come

2:59:542:59:58

out. So yes, there are specific

issues to look at the ladies

2:59:583:00:02

affected by this change, but if we

really want to resolve it, we have

3:00:023:00:05

to take the long-term lessons and we

owe it to those affected to say, how

3:00:053:00:09

can we stop future generations being

affected by it? Because if you own

3:00:093:00:14

your pension, this sort of change,

arbitrarily impacted by the state,

3:00:143:00:18

put in place by the state, cannot

happen. And it will take many years

3:00:183:00:22

to put in place, but there would be

immediate short-term benefit as we

3:00:223:00:26

would move to an economy that would

create more confidence in investment

3:00:263:00:29

and we would move away from a boom

and bust higher consumer debt model

3:00:293:00:35

which is why I think my honourable

friend has got it spot on.

3:00:353:00:44

We will need cross-party consensus

and we will need to be radical and

3:00:443:00:47

look to the future and not focus

entirely on the short-term issues.

3:00:473:00:52

Aye I had to reduce the time it to

four minutes.

First of all, may I

3:00:523:00:59

take this opportunity to not just

congratulate that commend the member

3:00:593:01:02

for Easington for bringing this

very, very important debate? I must

3:01:023:01:13

reiterate, we must recognise the

injustice these women have been

3:01:133:01:15

dealt. It is not a case of simply

saying, we hear the issues that have

3:01:153:01:20

been raised about by constituents,

we need to listen. I know the member

3:01:203:01:26

for Bury St Edmunds talked about

proportionality and cost and there

3:01:263:01:30

are actions, such as early drawdown,

that the garment can take now. This

3:01:303:01:34

action, which would be cost neutral,

could have a beneficial impact. --

3:01:343:01:42

the Government was I don't

understand what prevents the

3:01:423:01:45

Government from introducing across

mutual measure of an early drawdown

3:01:453:01:51

for women who wish to pursue this

option. To do nothing is not only

3:01:513:01:57

inadequate, it is unfair and unjust.

In my constituency of pita bread, I

3:01:573:02:02

have been contacted by a number of

constituents, and that is on the

3:02:023:02:07

issue of looking at proportionality.

-- of Peter borough. We cannot say

3:02:073:02:12

there may be one or two women who

have come to our attention and we

3:02:123:02:16

feel we need to look at individuals,

this is a massive issue for number

3:02:163:02:21

of women, which the Waspi women

plight covers and brings to our

3:02:213:02:26

attention. We must do something. It

is not enough to say we are here. We

3:02:263:02:30

need to listen and take action. I

believe that whilst I understand

3:02:303:02:35

that the pension age has to go up

the rate of the increase has been

3:02:353:02:41

very rapid, with very little warning

more time to prepare for it. Many

3:02:413:02:45

members will have heard the phrase

that says, to forewarn is to four

3:02:453:02:49

arm. Where was the forewarning some

of these women? We cannot sit back

3:02:493:02:54

and say, we're very sorry you didn't

get letter, or even compare young

3:02:543:02:59

people much like myself saying, in

years to come, we will have to deal

3:02:593:03:03

with differences in the pension

being paid to us or state pensions

3:03:033:03:07

we could be eligible for, this is a

very specific plight of the 1950s

3:03:073:03:13

women, who have been dealt a very

unjust blow. For us to sit back and

3:03:133:03:19

say, there were letters and everyone

has to suffer. At some point someone

3:03:193:03:24

will come across this. Younger

people will have this effect. This

3:03:243:03:27

is not acceptable.

Thank you for

giving Waigel to visit not

3:03:273:03:33

particularly galling a

disproportionate number of Waspi

3:03:333:03:37

women do not have access to pension

schemes? It is all the more galling

3:03:373:03:41

for them as a result.

I absolutely

agree with my honourable friend.

3:03:413:03:48

That is correct. With regards to the

state pension, we need to understand

3:03:483:03:52

this is not a welfare benefit. We

are not saying that some of you have

3:03:523:03:57

paid in and, sorry about this, we

cannot do what we promised you. If

3:03:573:04:01

you are going along and paying in

she were 15, paying into a system

3:04:013:04:06

that you believed would pay you back

in your time of need, that you could

3:04:063:04:10

rely on that and it was taken me and

you do not have a pension in your

3:04:103:04:15

workplace or you did not get booked

into that type of pension,

3:04:153:04:19

absolutely it has dire consequences

and very negative impacts on our

3:04:193:04:23

lives. In my constituency I was

contacted by number of women, one of

3:04:233:04:27

which was Wendy Hopkins that she

advised me she had been working

3:04:273:04:32

since 15 and paid all of her

national insurance contributions,

3:04:323:04:35

thinking she could retire at 60. Two

years before retirement age could

3:04:353:04:40

she was told this had been increased

to 63. Within 18 months of this age

3:04:403:04:46

now has to wait till she turns 66.

As members can imagine, this did not

3:04:463:04:52

afford sufficient time in which she

could make arrangements to make up

3:04:523:04:55

her financial loss. So, in that case

can she had to rely on her husband,

3:04:553:05:00

who has now had to work his 67, and

is taking up a part-time job to

3:05:003:05:07

cover the financial loss they have

suffered. It is very important and

3:05:073:05:12

prudent to acknowledge that there

are some women who did receive the

3:05:123:05:15

letter about the 2011 pension act

and advised them the pensionable age

3:05:153:05:23

would be increased by another 15

months. Due to personal

3:05:233:05:27

circumstances, which seems to be

overlooked by some contributions in

3:05:273:05:32

this House, not everyone is in a

position to take up an

3:05:323:05:37

apprenticeship or work, or they may

have caring needs of partners or

3:05:373:05:41

children. It is not a fact they

should have to turn around and say,

3:05:413:05:44

yes, I will continue to work. This

is something they were promised me

3:05:443:05:49

need to respect that. I feel, I will

draw my comments to conclusion now,

3:05:493:05:54

that we need to take action we need

to act now. There are cost neutral

3:05:543:05:59

things we could do and we need to do

it.

Another day, another debate on

3:05:593:06:06

pension for women is born -- born in

the 1950s. We have had more debates

3:06:063:06:14

on the subject and Liz Taylor had

husbands. This situation will not go

3:06:143:06:23

away. I'm proud to be the

co-chairman of the party group and

3:06:233:06:28

please do have co-sponsored this

debate here today. I want to

3:06:283:06:33

reiterate the point that Waspi is

not just those groups calling

3:06:333:06:38

themselves Waspi, it is the hundreds

and thousands and millions of women

3:06:383:06:41

who find themselves in this

position. I welcome the survey we

3:06:413:06:45

have put out. I hope you will get

some concrete data and I hope you

3:06:453:06:50

will be supporting the bill when it

comes to this House in April. To

3:06:503:06:55

reiterate, there are three main

problems. Nobody is complaining

3:06:553:06:58

about equalising the pension age. It

is the process and mechanism of

3:06:583:07:03

getting there which is at fault. It

is the disproportionate impact on a

3:07:033:07:11

specific explicit group of people,

more than 3 million now, and

3:07:113:07:14

particularly where those women, it

is calculated that 33% of men, a

3:07:143:07:19

third of men, will retire were just

the state pension to rely on but for

3:07:193:07:25

women the figure is 53%. Much more

important to women. Secondary it is

3:07:253:07:32

the arbitrary cut-off date that many

of these women have had to suffer. A

3:07:323:07:36

women born in 1953 on the 2nd of

May, her pension age will now be

3:07:363:07:42

November 2000 and 16. A loss of some

2000 what she might originally have

3:07:423:07:47

expected. -- 2016. Someone born six

months later, her pension age will

3:07:473:07:55

be 2020. A huge difference for the

sake of 12 months.

Would my

3:07:553:08:01

honourable friend agree that before

the changes which came in in 2011,

3:08:013:08:07

some analysis should have been

carried out to address the problems

3:08:073:08:10

he has now identified?

That is

right. We have heard time and again

3:08:103:08:18

there was transition money given in

2011. Half that money went to men to

3:08:183:08:22

make up for the transition

differences they were getting. Women

3:08:223:08:26

did not benefit disproportionately

from the additional money. Secondly,

3:08:263:08:33

thirdly, Madame de de Speaker, the

whole issue about the lack of

3:08:333:08:38

notice, for many of those women,

even if they had got the notice,

3:08:383:08:41

they were not in a position to make

preparations to order their

3:08:413:08:45

lifestyle to enable them to be able

to survive through their 60s. --

3:08:453:08:50

Madam Deputy Speaker. They have had

caring son 's abilities, depleted

3:08:503:08:56

savings and disabilities themselves.

-- caring responsibilities. Women's

3:08:563:09:04

pension savings are 66% less than

men's the 1960s. Women were often

3:09:043:09:12

ineligible to join employers pension

schemes are often passed over for

3:09:123:09:16

promotion in favour of male

colleagues. That is the legacy those

3:09:163:09:18

women are bringing with them now.

Also, there are other disadvantages.

3:09:183:09:23

The 2001 changes to the widow 's

pension meant those widowed prior to

3:09:233:09:28

their SBA no longer receive a full

widow 's pension until they reach

3:09:283:09:31

their full FPA which has now been

delayed. We need to find a solution,

3:09:313:09:38

the Government needs to listen and

get around the table and discuss.

3:09:383:09:42

There are many different transition

arrangements we could bring in.

3:09:423:09:46

Scaremongering that it will cost

tens of billions of pounds is really

3:09:463:09:49

not helpful. We can do things around

the bus passes and winter allowance

3:09:493:09:53

as well that would make a meaningful

effect too many women but we need to

3:09:533:09:58

help those who are in most need at

the moment and they are suffering

3:09:583:10:02

now it is important to say this is

not a benefit, it is an entitlement.

3:10:023:10:09

Some of these women could have paid

national insurance contributions. I

3:10:093:10:14

appreciate it is not directly linked

to a pension, for as long as 50

3:10:143:10:18

years by the time they retire. It is

reasonable for them to expect they

3:10:183:10:21

would start to benefit at the time

they contracted to, when they

3:10:213:10:26

started working, and paid their

employment use to the Treasury. I

3:10:263:10:30

also want to echo the points by my

co-chair from the group about women

3:10:303:10:36

overseas as well. Madam Deputy

Speaker, we have a duty of care to

3:10:363:10:43

these women a specific set of women

that won't be affected in the future

3:10:433:10:48

because we have changed the law.

That duty of care needs to be

3:10:483:10:53

honoured before more women suffer,

or worse still, come to the end of

3:10:533:10:58

their lives. As my co-chair said

that they are feeling cheated,

3:10:583:11:03

disrespected and angry. The Prime

Minister said last year, I want a

3:11:033:11:07

country built on furnace where

everyone plays by the same rules.

3:11:073:11:10

Let's start by showing it and

writing this injustice now. --

3:11:103:11:16

fairness.

I completely agree with

the member for East Worthing and

3:11:163:11:21

Shoreham pulled this is an

entitlement for women. And I also

3:11:213:11:26

commend the member for Easington who

has a real determination to ensure

3:11:263:11:30

that women get justice. I am so

proud of women. Women across the

3:11:303:11:34

country you are standing up for

their rights. We will back them. My

3:11:343:11:39

question is this. Why is it always

women that have to experience so

3:11:393:11:44

much financial hardship and poverty

in later life? We know the

3:11:443:11:51

structures of employment drive women

into poverty. 36% of women working

3:11:513:11:56

part-time compared to 22% of men.

Women earning a third less. Women

3:11:563:12:02

part-time earning a third less than

full-time men. Women who are

3:12:023:12:07

responsible, take on

responsibilities for

3:12:073:12:10

intergenerational care. A quarter of

women not returning to work after

3:12:103:12:14

having a child. 17% I have to say

through pregnancy discrimination.

3:12:143:12:21

Therefore, already, economically

disadvantaged. We know in the pay

3:12:213:12:25

structures, vertical job segregation

means women earn, on average, around

3:12:253:12:29

£25,000 compared to men, £30,000.

Women in the north and on average

3:12:293:12:37

less than women in the south. We

know that women tend to be

3:12:373:12:42

predicated in those low-paid jobs.

And, of course, the jobs as we have

3:12:423:12:47

heard followed the seas. Childcare,

catering, cashiers, cleaning and

3:12:473:12:51

clerical work. It means it is hard

for women to work in later life.

3:12:513:12:56

That must be recognised. But I have

to say that when we hear those

3:12:563:13:03

stories of women who come into our

surgeries who have five jobs, as I

3:13:033:13:07

did in my surgery on Friday. 30 our

jobs and two part-time jobs. We know

3:13:073:13:13

it is tough for women that many

cannot get employment at all in

3:13:133:13:17

later life. Of course we know that

the occupational pension that women

3:13:173:13:21

have saved up for is far less than

men. They only on average get 2500

3:13:213:13:30

years of an occupational pension and

then, if you think, have further

3:13:303:13:34

injustice in not being able to

receive their state pension either

3:13:343:13:39

after they have made those

contributions. It is a complete

3:13:393:13:42

disgrace. I am fed up that it is

always women that have to pay the

3:13:423:13:48

price. If we look at other

countries, they take our lifelong

3:13:483:13:52

approach to pensions. If they are

bringing in changes, people are

3:13:523:13:55

aware of it the decades ahead. And

here, even though the Turner

3:13:553:14:03

commission said 15 years, here women

are not getting such rights

3:14:033:14:05

honoured. Therefore, what we have to

look at is particularly women in

3:14:053:14:10

poverty and the experience they have

at the moment. I have been reading,

3:14:103:14:15

obviously, at a time when we have

heard that 1.9 million people in our

3:14:153:14:19

country are living in poverty and we

know that 40,000 people died last

3:14:193:14:23

winter because they could not even

afford to heat their own homes. We

3:14:233:14:27

have to address the issue of women

of pension age in poverty. We

3:14:273:14:32

certainly know that the Waspi women,

pension poverty has increased from

3:14:323:14:40

12% to 21%. So, a real issue to be

addressed.

3:14:403:14:45

It was not women who failed but it

is women who have been bailed. Women

3:14:453:14:51

have always had to pay, always

discriminated, to the point poverty.

3:14:513:14:57

It was government that made these

changes, it was government that

3:14:573:15:00

failed to notify these women and we

must rectify this gross injustice to

3:15:003:15:05

end poverty for women in later life.

Let's have real dignity for women in

3:15:053:15:09

the and let's honour what they paid

into, thank you.

3:15:093:15:14

What they paid into, thank you. What

they paid into, thank you. What they

3:15:143:15:18

paid into, thank you. This? I was

happy to add my signature to the

3:15:183:15:23

application to ensure it got through

to the backbench of the committee.

3:15:233:15:28

Can I pay tribute to local WASPI

campaigners. Several Scottish

3:15:283:15:36

members today to sate my members are

watching at home. I have a local

3:15:363:15:40

WASPI campaigner from Moray today,

one of whom is Jennifer Matheson,

3:15:403:15:45

who is fresh from abseiling from a

building recently to raise funds and

3:15:453:15:51

resplendent in her WASPI colours to

show her the continued support for

3:15:513:15:55

this campaign. And can I put on

record my support for Shula Forbes

3:15:553:16:00

who leads the Moray WASPI campaign.

I have spoken in debates previously

3:16:003:16:04

and today I want to focus on local

case studies to ensure the effects

3:16:043:16:08

of mark rate to women recorded in

the official report because they are

3:16:083:16:14

testimony which is important. One

woman who looks after three

3:16:143:16:18

generations as well as holding down

a full-time job but because of the

3:16:183:16:21

stress caused by her concerns over

her pension age, she is now off sick

3:16:213:16:28

to do with that. Another lady who is

close to me in the chamber says she

3:16:283:16:34

is 64, four years without her

pension. She has worked since she

3:16:343:16:39

was 16 and has 43 years of National

Insurance contributions. To echo the

3:16:393:16:44

comments made by other members

today, this constituent had two

3:16:443:16:48

schoolmate born in the same year,

1958, one in February and one in

3:16:483:16:53

July and some already have their

pensions, some nine years -- nine

3:16:533:16:58

months apart can mean two years

difference in state pension

3:16:583:17:02

pay-outs. Another resigned at 61

from a very stressful job and she

3:17:023:17:06

could live from her savings until

she got the pension age at 62, to

3:17:063:17:10

find out it had changed to 66. She

had a double whammy of trying to

3:17:103:17:16

claim her occupational pension but

was advised if she took it, she

3:17:163:17:19

would lose 5% each year before state

retirement age of 66. A constituent

3:17:193:17:24

of mine who has a double whammy. In

the short term, I want to finish on

3:17:243:17:30

another story from Moray, a carer

for her husband who got a stroke

3:17:303:17:34

five years ago and they were going

to use some state pension money to

3:17:343:17:37

buy specialist equipment is not

available on the NHS. That is

3:17:373:17:41

harrowing, but the key point was she

never received a letter informing

3:17:413:17:45

her she would not be getting her

pension at 60.

I will quickly give

3:17:453:17:48

way. He hits the nail on head, there

are a lot of women who on caring

3:17:483:17:56

responsibilities with partners with

life changing health conditions and

3:17:563:17:59

it is really important the Minister

takes this into account looking at

3:17:593:18:02

the impact on these women and

pension imprecations.

I am very

3:18:023:18:06

grateful, and we have heard from

both sides of the chamber that

3:18:063:18:10

message and I am hopeful the

Minister will take that on board.

3:18:103:18:12

The final point about this

constituent, she had lived at the

3:18:123:18:17

same address for 27 years, she had

not moved House, the same address

3:18:173:18:21

for 27 years and she never received

a single letter from the DWP about

3:18:213:18:27

these changes, this is the

inadequacy. I would like to share

3:18:273:18:29

the comments, she has sadly left the

chamber, but the honourable lady for

3:18:293:18:35

Swansea East and my honourable

friend for East Worthing, who was

3:18:353:18:39

speaking about the study into this,

it is something I'd fully support

3:18:393:18:42

and I was at the launch and

Westminster Hall recently. There

3:18:423:18:45

have been 90 submissions so far and

we need more, this is an opportunity

3:18:453:18:49

for WASPI across the country to get

involved in this study to ensure

3:18:493:18:54

that we have a process to go through

to offer something to the Minister

3:18:543:18:59

and the Government. We want to

identify a solution and it is

3:18:593:19:03

important that women affected by

these changes are involved in that.

3:19:033:19:06

To conclude, all 3.8 women, WASPI

women agree with equalisation, we

3:19:063:19:14

heard that today across the chamber.

-- 3.8 million women. Does he shared

3:19:143:19:20

concerns many here have that those

doing physical and maybe mean all

3:19:203:19:25

work are unable to work for another

two more years because of the

3:19:253:19:31

position, does he agree government

should consider those who are

3:19:313:19:33

physically unable to work and cope

with the extra two years and should

3:19:333:19:38

action be taken to help them?

I

could only raise some of the

3:19:383:19:43

testimonies I had from Moray WASPI

women and I would have included

3:19:433:19:49

those women who are continuing with

difficult jobs who have worked in

3:19:493:19:53

these sectors for so long, sectors

where they perceive gender

3:19:533:19:58

inequality during their working

life. They suffered when they were

3:19:583:20:00

working and they thought they were

come into retirement age and they

3:20:003:20:04

have continued strenuous work into a

period they felt they would have

3:20:043:20:06

been retired. There have been

hard-working, conscientious

3:20:063:20:11

employees for so long and they

deserve our support. I would hope

3:20:113:20:14

the many here with us today and

around the country watching this

3:20:143:20:20

debate will feel there is support

around this chamber and across the

3:20:203:20:23

parties. My key issue is the lack of

notification. I think it is

3:20:233:20:31

indefensible of any government, and

this is not just this current

3:20:313:20:35

government, it is not just decisions

made by this Conservative

3:20:353:20:38

government, it is across the green

benches. The Mets have let these

3:20:383:20:42

women down by not ensuring they have

the notification required to make

3:20:423:20:46

plans for the future -- governments.

They were faced with a cliff edge

3:20:463:20:50

with no prior notice. That is wrong

and that is why I support the WASPI

3:20:503:20:56

women. I also support the very

positive contribution we have had

3:20:563:21:01

earlier, we are fighting for an

entitlement. This is something these

3:21:013:21:04

ladies have paid into their entire

life and we are fighting for an

3:21:043:21:08

entitlement, not something they

should have to fight for, they

3:21:083:21:11

should be given that. That is why I

believe that the end of their

3:21:113:21:15

contract, they entered into a

contract with the Government that's

3:21:153:21:17

it at the end, you would receive

this pension, at this age, and that

3:21:173:21:21

is an entitlement and that is why I

support them in fighting for that

3:21:213:21:25

and I support the Moray WASPI women,

all the back row -- one in the

3:21:253:21:34

chamber and all those WASPI women

watching at home.

I would like to

3:21:343:21:39

pay to Bute as well to my honourable

friend from Easington for the

3:21:393:21:44

tireless work you has done on this

issue. There are many people in this

3:21:443:21:50

House on both sides of the chamber

who do not see pensions as a burden.

3:21:503:21:54

Rather, an expression of collective

solidarity amongst generations. We

3:21:543:22:00

are proud pensions, it is part of a

clue of a civilised society and we

3:22:003:22:05

will always defend them and we speak

up for the WASPI women. I am

3:22:053:22:10

representing many of my constituents

who are among the millions of women,

3:22:103:22:13

half of whom are rock letter Day,

who have suffered as a result of

3:22:133:22:18

government policy on pensions. --

they are up there today. Many of the

3:22:183:22:23

cases members raised to date will

tell fundamentally the same story.

3:22:233:22:29

It is important they get told

because this is not just the brazen

3:22:293:22:39

wrongness of the injustice, but the

scale. 3.8 million women being

3:22:393:22:43

robbed of that which they were

promised. This is a huge scandal.

3:22:433:22:48

And it must be faced up to big

government and as soon as possible.

3:22:483:22:52

While I do have case studies to

tell, constituents perhaps one of

3:22:523:22:56

the most chilling of them, it is I

have been asked by my local 1950s

3:22:563:23:01

women's groups to make them

anonymous to not reveal their

3:23:013:23:06

identities because some of the women

have been reduced to the poverty and

3:23:063:23:11

embarrassment, and that is shocking.

Women who have spent their whole

3:23:113:23:15

lives either working or caring for

others. Women in their 60s who

3:23:153:23:19

entire life plans were based on the

knowledge that they would be

3:23:193:23:22

receiving pensions in a given year

have been tossed casually onto the

3:23:223:23:26

benefits system with its attendant

humiliations. And in the case of my

3:23:263:23:31

constituent, forced to go out and

get cleaning jobs on the Minimum

3:23:313:23:34

Wage. Almost as bad as the financial

robbery is the humiliation and the

3:23:343:23:41

insult. Another now forced to sell

her home because she is unable to

3:23:413:23:46

qualify for benefits, to sell the

only asset she had acquired in a

3:23:463:23:49

lifetime of work and service. I have

mentioned the numbers of those

3:23:493:23:57

affected. There is another element

that makes the scandal a terrible

3:23:573:24:01

stain on all others in this place,

and that is the perpetrator of the

3:24:013:24:06

injustice. It has not been carried

out by some faceless corporate

3:24:063:24:10

financial mega business in Panama or

some fly by night we were dealer,

3:24:103:24:16

but by Her Majesty's government. I

am chair of the APPG on their

3:24:163:24:22

banking and we have found alarming

evidence of malpractice and fraud in

3:24:223:24:25

our financial sector that is truly

disgraceful. And trust and faith in

3:24:253:24:31

our financial sector is no

shockingly low. Why should we be

3:24:313:24:36

surprised by what is happening in

the private sector if the Government

3:24:363:24:39

itself, the same government which is

supposed to regulate and keep the

3:24:393:24:42

system there, is so ready to

casually rip off millions of women?

3:24:423:24:48

Trust, as we know it, is hard won

and easily lost. And yet without it,

3:24:483:24:52

the entire basis of consent under

which democratic government operates

3:24:523:24:57

is lost. If we allow this injustice

to persist, we will be doing our

3:24:573:25:03

entire country a great disservice. I

call on the Government to bring

3:25:033:25:06

forward a pair and reasonable plan

to solve this without delay.

-- if

3:25:063:25:11

there. It is a great pleasure to

follow my friend from Norwich South

3:25:113:25:17

who so eloquently described the

problems in his area. I would like

3:25:173:25:22

to extend my congratulations to the

member for Easington for securing

3:25:223:25:25

this debate. And especially the

WASPI women in the UK who continue

3:25:253:25:32

despite four Justice and continue

their fight to be heard. This debate

3:25:323:25:38

has rightly discussed on many

occasions and link the

3:25:383:25:42

technicalities of why we are in the

position we are here today. It boils

3:25:423:25:47

down to poor notice, poor care and

an apathy for many years. It is time

3:25:473:25:54

that finished. There has been

maladministration and it is time we

3:25:543:25:59

stand up and admit that, face the

consequences and across this House

3:25:593:26:03

and across the United Kingdom, find

a way to successfully ended. I would

3:26:033:26:09

like to take this opportunity to

raise two cases from East Lothian,

3:26:093:26:14

constituents would just over 6,000

women affected by this. Diana was

3:26:143:26:19

born in 1952, she worked full-time

and in 1969 was told that she had to

3:26:193:26:26

pay the full National Insurance

contribution to make sure that she

3:26:263:26:29

would get her full pension at 60.

This, she did. Having started work

3:26:293:26:36

at 16 and attended evening classes

and worked through day release to

3:26:363:26:39

carry on with her job, unable to

attend college because her parents

3:26:393:26:43

could not afford it, she worked her

entire working life. Going

3:26:433:26:48

part-time, when her children arrived

to look after them. She has paid in

3:26:483:26:53

for 44 years. Today, you need to

only contribute 30 years to

3:26:533:27:00

guarantee a full pension, she has

contributed 14 years longer than

3:27:003:27:05

that. She was not informed her

pension age was changing from 60,

3:27:053:27:09

she was not informed she was going

to get a reduced pension and she

3:27:093:27:12

rightly feels she genuinely rightly

feels that she has been let down by

3:27:123:27:20

her country. The second case I would

like to raise is Lorna. Born in

3:27:203:27:26

1954, she started one month before

his 16th birthday, she now has two

3:27:263:27:31

grandchildren raised by her and her

husband and both of them have paid

3:27:313:27:35

their way their entire lives and

provided for their family. She

3:27:353:27:39

always believed she would receive

her state pension on her 60th

3:27:393:27:43

birthday date, but it did not occur.

His sister, born in 1953, received

3:27:433:27:48

her pension at 63. And she has to

wait until she is 66. Her husband

3:27:483:27:56

works full-time, 12 hour shifts.

Lorna is not well, she has huge

3:27:563:28:00

mobility problems and significant

other problems. Her husband will not

3:28:003:28:05

receive his pension until 2022, he

is two years younger than she is,

3:28:053:28:11

they still have a mortgage to pay

and still have the contribute to

3:28:113:28:16

that. If she had received her

pension at 60, she would be able to

3:28:163:28:19

live a life that shows some -- some

respects, this has been removed from

3:28:193:28:24

her and so many women we have heard

about today, so many who are here in

3:28:243:28:30

the gallery, so many women around

the country. Now is the time for

3:28:303:28:35

this Government to listen. We have

heard cross bench support for

3:28:353:28:39

proposals that would rectify this.

Now is the time we give justice to

3:28:393:28:43

the WASPI women.

I congratulate my honourable friend

3:28:433:28:50

from Easington to secure this

debate. I speak in support of this

3:28:503:28:55

motion. I will fight for the right

of 1950s women to obtain what they

3:28:553:29:01

are entitled to. The way these women

have been treated by this Government

3:29:013:29:06

is disgusting and downright

disrespectful, it is totally

3:29:063:29:09

unacceptable that women born in the

1950s are suffering from financial

3:29:093:29:14

hardship because the Government

failed to communicate state pension

3:29:143:29:16

rights with them effectively. My

honourable friend from Swansea East

3:29:163:29:20

to travels widely across the country

to fight for 1950s women will also

3:29:203:29:26

attend an event in

3:29:263:29:34

Some women were only given one year

's notice and others got five years

3:29:353:29:39

warning. We, on these benches,

recognise the injustice these women

3:29:393:29:43

have been doubtful. These policies

policies prompt legal action. Our

3:29:433:29:53

policies are tangible. The action at

the Goodman could take note women in

3:29:533:29:56

their 60s are not facing

homelessness through the broken

3:29:563:30:02

system of Universal Credit. -- the

Government. When discussing this

3:30:023:30:10

inequality, it is important to note

that these are women's lives that

3:30:103:30:14

are affected. Indeed there are many

nineteen fifties Waspi women in my

3:30:143:30:19

constituency with harrowing stories

that illustrate the personal impact

3:30:193:30:24

pension inequality has. My

constituent's mother was born in

3:30:243:30:29

April 1953 footer she was an

extremely hard work and work all

3:30:293:30:32

alive. She split from her husband 20

years ago and was working full-time,

3:30:323:30:38

raising a child as a single mother.

But though she loved to work and she

3:30:383:30:42

was looking forward to a much

deserved retirement at the age of

3:30:423:30:47

60. After 60 her attitude changed.

She would say things like, I would

3:30:473:30:52

not know what to do if I retired.

During this time she was still

3:30:523:30:56

travelling and working five or six

days a week at a garden centre.

3:30:563:31:01

After she turned 60, she decided to

take a job out of the blue closer to

3:31:013:31:09

home at another garden centre and

she said it was not so difficult to

3:31:093:31:12

get to it. Her family would keep

going on to her about retiring but

3:31:123:31:15

she said you did not really want to.

Changes in the state pension act

3:31:153:31:18

would mean instead of retiring in

2013 she would have to wait till

3:31:183:31:26

2016 foot like many Waspi women she

was given very little notice her

3:31:263:31:31

retirement age would change. Sadly

she passed away of pneumonia in

3:31:313:31:35

2015. She refused to slow down. It

was ultimately what led to her

3:31:353:31:42

death. It was only after her death

and dealing with the state that the

3:31:423:31:46

family realised it was not because

she did not want to retire but she

3:31:463:31:50

felt she could not retire. Despite

best efforts to convince her mother

3:31:503:31:57

otherwise, she did not want to tell

them because you did not want them

3:31:573:31:59

to worry. This has caused so much

distress to have family who feel

3:31:593:32:06

that when she retired, if she had

retired when she originally planned

3:32:063:32:10

that she would have lived longer

even with her COPD. My constituent

3:32:103:32:15

and many like her, after a lifetime

of work, should not be put through

3:32:153:32:19

such an ordeal. This would mean

state pension equalisation would

3:32:193:32:27

have fared transitional arrangements

for women born on or after six of

3:32:273:32:34

April 19 50. Myself, along with

honourable friends on these benches,

3:32:343:32:38

would continue to fight and work

with the 1950s women to right the

3:32:383:32:41

wrong they have been dealt.

Thank

you. I want to start by paying

3:32:413:32:49

tribute and dedicating a speech to

my good friend and sister, Mary

3:32:493:32:52

Moore will stop as I speak, her

family will be attending her burial

3:32:523:32:59

service with the knowledge that Mary

will be the first to ask me to speak

3:32:593:33:03

out and stand up for her generation

of women, the Waspi women. Want to

3:33:033:33:09

thank my honourable friend for

Easington who is a tireless champion

3:33:093:33:12

of working people and for the Waspi

women in this House. We have come to

3:33:123:33:17

debate and issue of fairness and

decency and what is right and what

3:33:173:33:22

is wrong. The Waspi women in Glasgow

and Lanarkshire are watching this

3:33:223:33:30

live in Glasgow today. Banks making

that possible. The Waspi women are

3:33:303:33:39

watching, the Waspi women are

listening and they deserve action,

3:33:393:33:43

honesty, decency and equality and I

say to them, I am with you and I

3:33:433:33:50

know this side of the House is with

you as well. Like many members of

3:33:503:33:55

the House I have campaigned with,

welcomed to my surgery, cried with a

3:33:553:34:01

listened to the Waspi women and

their stories. Take Helen, for

3:34:013:34:06

examples that she lives in my

constituency for such was born in

3:34:063:34:10

1954. On January the 18th she will

be celebrating her 64th birthday.

3:34:103:34:15

Helen has spent her adult life

working was about job comes to an

3:34:153:34:20

end in April. If we were to follow

the advice of the minister, the

3:34:203:34:24

member for Hexham. Either she

applies for jobseeker's allowance or

3:34:243:34:27

she applies for an apprenticeship.

Yes, you didn't hear me, an

3:34:273:34:34

apprenticeship at 64. Well, I think

she should be able to claim her

3:34:343:34:38

pension, enjoy her dignity and

respect. Helen, and women like her,

3:34:383:34:42

should not be singing their

favourite song, will you still need

3:34:423:34:50

me, will you still feed me when I am

64? Yes, Helen, we do still need you

3:34:503:34:56

and yes, Helen, we will still

feeding. Madam Speaker, I would like

3:34:563:35:01

the minister to know why the meeting

was refuelled with the Waspi

3:35:013:35:05

campaign. I know I requested to meet

the Parliamentary Under-Secretary of

3:35:053:35:10

State for financial inclusion and

has been turned down several times.

3:35:103:35:12

I would like to know why. The

Government has a duty to bring the

3:35:123:35:19

country to its people together and I

want to know why they have not and

3:35:193:35:23

will not. A few short weeks ago, I

was very pleased to be able to lead

3:35:233:35:29

my first Westminster Hall debate.

There was a state pension age. It

3:35:293:35:32

was a good debate and I was very

grateful for the people who joined

3:35:323:35:37

us. I stood up for the constituents

on our side. Madam Speaker, there

3:35:373:35:45

were only two interventions from the

Tory backbenches. They had an

3:35:453:35:49

opportunity to speak up and they

never took it. In winding up, this

3:35:493:35:55

House must stand up for working

people. There needs to be a voice in

3:35:553:36:01

this chamber for decent working

people. I have had so many e-mails

3:36:013:36:06

and letters from Waspi women. It has

been an honour to receive every one

3:36:063:36:10

of them. I say to this government

don't mess with the Waspi women. I

3:36:103:36:15

say to them and I say to the women

in the gallery, and the woman back

3:36:153:36:21

home in Glasgow, until justice is

done, I will be fighting with you.

3:36:213:36:25

Thank you, Madam Speaker.

Thank you.

During the many questions and

3:36:253:36:32

debates on pensions for women, we

have heard the facts, the figures

3:36:323:36:36

and the dates that the 3.8 million

women affected. I am not going to

3:36:363:36:40

quote figures and I am not going to

talk about dates was instead I'm

3:36:403:36:43

going to talk to you about a woman I

met a few weeks ago I'm going to

3:36:433:36:47

referred to as Mary full she came to

see me during a particularly wet and

3:36:473:36:52

cold morning surgery. When she

arrived she was visibly shaking and

3:36:523:36:57

upset because she had slipped over

on the wet leaves walking into the

3:36:573:37:03

room. I offered to meet her another

time that she was so insistent she

3:37:033:37:06

wanted to speak to me that morning

and she apologised for being late

3:37:063:37:09

and explained it was because she was

so tired it was making her clumsy. I

3:37:093:37:14

asked how I could help her and she

Tomic was currently on bereavement

3:37:143:37:18

leave. Her son had died in July and

despite support from work are Greece

3:37:183:37:25

made it impossible for her to return

to work in the local supermarket. --

3:37:253:37:30

her grief. She also cared for her

husband who had a degenerative

3:37:303:37:35

condition. His health had declined

to a point where he could not get

3:37:353:37:38

out of his chair and needed constant

care, which is why she did not want

3:37:383:37:43

to rearrange she was adamant she

needed me to hear her stories and

3:37:433:37:46

she told me she did not find out she

would have to work till 65 until

3:37:463:37:52

2013. She said the memory with vivid

in her mind and she had been told by

3:37:523:38:00

a work colleague. She said she did

not believe it at first. She went

3:38:003:38:03

home and found the pension line and

was in shock. We know she is not the

3:38:033:38:08

only one. The Department for Work

and Pensions fell to record how many

3:38:083:38:12

letters were returned and delivered

and no further action was taken to

3:38:123:38:15

trace women who had not received

letters. A few years previously,

3:38:153:38:20

Mary Posner mother had become ill.

She had to make the choice either to

3:38:203:38:24

go part-time at work and give up a

management position to care for her

3:38:243:38:29

mum or she continued to work and

sort carers for her. Mary believed

3:38:293:38:33

she only had few years until she had

a pension. She made the decision to

3:38:333:38:41

go part time and care for her mum in

the past two years of her life. Her

3:38:413:38:44

decision to care for her mum go part

time, her work pension is sparsely

3:38:443:38:48

reduced. She is so broken by grief

at the moment that she cannot work.

3:38:483:38:53

She is watching her husband 's

decline and she faces her retirement

3:38:533:38:57

as a widow. Knowing that her pension

was changing at an early date would

3:38:573:39:02

not have stopped what happened to

her son, or her husbands or her

3:39:023:39:06

mother, but it would have enabled

her to have made an informed choice

3:39:063:39:12

about whether to have continued in

full-time employment or not but

3:39:123:39:15

which could have resulted in her

wasting her retirement as a widow in

3:39:153:39:17

a much more comfortable situation

than the one she now faces. Millions

3:39:173:39:21

of women across the country are

living in financial difficulty

3:39:213:39:25

because of the mismanagement of

these changes. Having made important

3:39:253:39:30

life decisions in the expectation

that they would receive their

3:39:303:39:33

pension at the age of 16. Madam

Deputy Speaker, I accept that even a

3:39:333:39:40

Labour government cannot change what

happened to Mary. But I do strongly

3:39:403:39:44

believe that it is the job of every

government but no, a job of every

3:39:443:39:48

person to reach out a hand to help

people back up when they have been

3:39:483:39:53

knocked down by life. This

government can address this up in

3:39:533:39:56

anyway they like but we all know

there has been an injustice done to

3:39:563:40:03

the 1950s women, like Mary. Now they

must right that wrong by introducing

3:40:033:40:08

transitional arrangements for all of

the women affected.

First off, I

3:40:083:40:15

would like to pay tribute to our

honourable colleague, the Member of

3:40:153:40:21

Parliament for Easington for

securing the debate. Thank you for

3:40:213:40:24

that. Also one of the honourable

member's he, salient points all the

3:40:243:40:30

way through his debate was the

complete failure of governments to

3:40:303:40:36

actually communicate the changes.

They were initially the Pensions Act

3:40:363:40:42

of 1995, which we all know and then

a Labour government and the

3:40:423:40:48

coalition after that. I have flagged

in the House before that all the

3:40:483:40:54

political parties have let women

down. If you think about it, from

3:40:543:40:59

1995 to 2009 was no communication at

all from the DWP to all these women

3:40:593:41:05

were some of whom were up there.

That is 14 years when governments

3:41:053:41:11

could have informed people, could

have informed these women exactly

3:41:113:41:14

what was happening. At least that

way there would have been time for

3:41:143:41:18

them to prepare. That did not

happen. That is why so many women

3:41:183:41:24

feel justifiably so frustrated,

angry and hurt. What I would like to

3:41:243:41:29

do while the minister is here is

tied to make some specific proposals

3:41:293:41:34

that the Government can do. This

current government is in charge.

3:41:343:41:39

They have the responsibility. First

off, I think, as my honourable

3:41:393:41:45

friend, the MP for Easington, has

already flagged, there should be an

3:41:453:41:50

opportunity for early access to

pensions credit. I think the

3:41:503:41:54

Government should consider using a

proper act for real research where

3:41:543:42:01

the Waspi pensioners from the 50s

may be able to take their pension is

3:42:013:42:05

earlier, even if it is a lower

amount, and then getting up to the

3:42:053:42:09

higher amount by the time they get

to 66. There has to be a financial

3:42:093:42:14

cost benefit on it, not least

because a lot of the Waspi women are

3:42:143:42:18

in a position where financially they

are facing some real challenges.

3:42:183:42:23

Thirdly, I think the Government

should consider very seriously

3:42:233:42:26

whatever a flat sum of transition

money. I have a proposal how they

3:42:263:42:31

could do this. This government is

absolutely insistent that they are

3:42:313:42:39

the party of aspiration. Sometimes

they are and sometimes they are not.

3:42:393:42:44

What I would also say is that

Theresa May, when she took over from

3:42:443:42:50

David Cameron after the referendum,

said she wanted to help people who

3:42:503:42:56

would just about managing full she

wanted to be there for the common

3:42:563:42:59

man or woman forced one of the

things the Government is continuing

3:42:593:43:03

to do, and it happened in the recent

budget, if they are continuing to

3:43:033:43:08

cut corporation tax. I have a

proposal for the Government was a

3:43:083:43:12

lot of businesses would accept this.

Why not disarray one year, 12

3:43:123:43:20

months, of corporation tax cut, take

that money to ensure that the Waspi

3:43:203:43:26

women actually have a sufficient

amount for a transition payment that

3:43:263:43:31

makes it a little less difficult? I

have a suggestion I think will fly

3:43:313:43:37

across parties and out there. I

think a lot of corporations will

3:43:373:43:41

say, fine but we will do it. We

appreciate that Waspi women have

3:43:413:43:46

been short-changed because for over

a decade they were not informed. We

3:43:463:43:50

will accept that. It is just an

idea. I will save to the minister,

3:43:503:43:55

it is time for this government

seriously not just to allow all

3:43:553:43:59

these debates backbench or otherwise

but to actually have a debate where

3:43:593:44:02

there is a vote. My final question

is directly to the minister. Listen

3:44:023:44:08

to people across the House. Give us

a proper vote of this issue. I

3:44:083:44:13

believe a lot of your backbenchers

will support us.

It takes a

3:44:133:44:18

particular talent to transform the

changing of an injustice into a

3:44:183:44:27

justice. In other words, bringing in

equality for men and women in

3:44:273:44:32

pensions into a massive injustice

for all the women we are talking

3:44:323:44:35

about from the 1950s. And that is

what has happened. The writing of a

3:44:353:44:40

wrong has been turned into a new

wrong. What we, everybody in this

3:44:403:44:46

House is saying, apart from a few

people who want to be desperately

3:44:463:44:49

loyal to the Government in their

hour of need, is that this really,

3:44:493:44:54

really does need resolving. The

injustice is twofold. It is not just

3:44:543:44:58

that the process was speeded up

suddenly.

3:44:583:45:07

I contacted 3,000 women we thought

might have been affected and I was

3:45:073:45:11

amazed that people came to a meeting

and they said, the first time I

3:45:113:45:14

realised I was going to be affected

was when I got a letter from the!

3:45:143:45:19

For heaven 's sake, the Government

knows when they are going to retire,

3:45:193:45:25

they have the information, they

should have got in touch. This is

3:45:253:45:29

not a partisan point, this is as

true of the Labour government as it

3:45:293:45:33

has been of the Coalition and the

present government. Nobody did the

3:45:333:45:38

due diligence of making sure all the

women who are going to be affected

3:45:383:45:41

knew about it. And as I say the

great Western Railway every time

3:45:413:45:46

they forget to give as information

about the train that has been

3:45:463:45:50

delayed, you can just make one

announcement, you can just send one

3:45:503:45:54

letter. These are complicated

matters and The Post gets mixed up

3:45:543:45:59

with something else or it gets

delivered to the wrong place. You

3:45:593:46:02

have to make sure, it was the

Government's job to make sure

3:46:023:46:06

everybody knew what was going to

happen. It is one thing to be told

3:46:063:46:10

in 30 years' time or 15 years your

pension is not going to be what you

3:46:103:46:14

thought it was going to be. It is

quite another suddenly to discover,

3:46:143:46:19

with moments to spare, that you

going to have to work extra years.

3:46:193:46:25

In my experience, in my

constituency, it is women who have

3:46:253:46:29

been beautiful. They have slaved

their way through their life. They

3:46:293:46:38

have worked from the age of 15, some

of them, doing tough jobs for

3:46:383:46:42

minimal pay and physically demanding

jobs often. The word often used is,

3:46:423:46:49

frankly, I am clapped-out! I have no

more energy to go on it -- an

3:46:493:46:55

apprenticeship scheme to do

something else. I would if I could,

3:46:553:46:58

that is in my nature, but there is

nothing left in me. So that feels

3:46:583:47:03

like a terrible injustice. But there

is another thing here, and I see

3:47:033:47:09

this in the Rhondda Valley. If you

do a map of deprivation across the

3:47:093:47:16

country, this is not something we're

proud of, it is a fact that people

3:47:163:47:21

have less money, they probably will

end up working many more hours to

3:47:213:47:25

put food on the table. And it in a

community such as mine, this makes a

3:47:253:47:32

great difference. This in justice is

very toughly felt. Because they

3:47:323:47:36

don't have savings to fall back on.

They have not got lots of extra

3:47:363:47:42

money, family members to turn to.

And often now, this generation of

3:47:423:47:47

women looking after elderly

relatives in their '80s and 90s as

3:47:473:47:50

well. This is impacting on my entire

community. One final thing, I pay

3:47:503:47:56

enormous tribute to a woman in my

constituent see running the campaign

3:47:563:48:01

in the Rhondda. I know you are a

decent man, the Government Minister,

3:48:013:48:05

but just trying to top this out for

years and years and years and hope

3:48:053:48:09

it will go away, it just is not

going to work. The Rhondda women

3:48:093:48:15

want justice and by heaven, they

will get it!

Can I start by thanking

3:48:153:48:22

my honourable friend for Islington

for his excellent work on this

3:48:223:48:27

issue? This is a very important and

serious issue the women of our

3:48:273:48:32

country are facing who were born in

1950. The 5,500 women in Bedford are

3:48:323:48:39

are affected by the pension changes

drawn up with little or no notice

3:48:393:48:42

and with no time to make alternative

plans for such a large event. I was

3:48:423:48:49

very pleased to hear last week that

Bedford Borough Council voted to

3:48:493:48:53

support those women through the

WASPI campaign. Depriving people of

3:48:533:48:58

the money they have worked for and

have been entitled is one of the

3:48:583:49:06

greatest injustices imposed on a

large section of our society. But it

3:49:063:49:10

is not just about the injustice. The

women I have spoken to from the

3:49:103:49:18

brilliant Bedford WASPI group told

me they have been robbed of their

3:49:183:49:23

money. Their independence, pride,

future and even their homes. Some of

3:49:233:49:29

those women are here today. Many

women are destitute. I know of one

3:49:293:49:39

woman now living in sheltered

accommodation with her mother

3:49:393:49:42

because especially women on their

own do not have the safety net of

3:49:423:49:49

partners and could not replan their

lives with less than five or

3:49:493:49:55

sometimes less than two years

notice. The women I spoke to said

3:49:553:49:59

they were not opposed to the pension

age going up, but the way it was

3:49:593:50:03

handled. The first shift in the

pension age was bad, but the second

3:50:033:50:08

time the goalposts were moved under

the Coalition Government was the

3:50:083:50:15

straw that broke the camel's back.

One woman told me that she tries to

3:50:153:50:18

carry on working, but health

problems got the better of her and

3:50:183:50:23

she could not carry on. She said

after decades of work and looking

3:50:233:50:29

after an elderly parent, she was

left with nothing more to give. His

3:50:293:50:34

story is common. Which is why on

hearing the Government telling women

3:50:343:50:39

in their 60s who have worked all

their lives to get on their bike and

3:50:393:50:43

get another job was yet another

insult. One woman told me she was

3:50:433:50:50

particularly upset that WASPI women

were part -- were pitted against the

3:50:503:50:55

younger generation and made to feel

greedy or scroungers for fighting

3:50:553:51:00

for the money they had saved for

when young people cannot even afford

3:51:003:51:06

a home. But she said her

grandchildren were right behind the

3:51:063:51:12

WASPI campaign because they knew

that fighting for her rights was

3:51:123:51:15

also fighting for their own rights

in the future. Dividing and ruling

3:51:153:51:19

is not working on this issue and the

Government need to understand young

3:51:193:51:24

people feel very strongly about this

on behalf of their grandparents.

3:51:243:51:29

Another woman said the experience

had left her feeling less of a human

3:51:293:51:35

being and was only the support of

the WASPI movement is knowing that

3:51:353:51:40

their millions of women who feel the

same way that has helped her to cope

3:51:403:51:44

with this. The Government has yet to

come up with one good reason. And

3:51:443:51:57

for those who have already reached

their pension. The WASPI women

3:51:573:52:02

asking for less than they are due

and it is about time they were given

3:52:023:52:07

it, thank you.

I would like to thank

the member for Easington for

3:52:073:52:14

bringing this motion into the House.

The Government's handling of this

3:52:143:52:21

issue has been shambolic and the

rightful source of much frustration

3:52:213:52:26

and anger. From women born in the

1950s. As previously stated on all

3:52:263:52:31

sides of the House, the lack of

communication from previous

3:52:313:52:36

governments has meant that those

born in the 1950s were receiving

3:52:363:52:40

letters stating that their pension

age had increased by six years. And

3:52:403:52:45

a large proportion of these women

only received this letter when they

3:52:453:52:50

were 59 and therefore within a year

of their expected retirement age of

3:52:503:52:55

60. And from the stories I have

heard, these were the lucky ones.

3:52:553:52:58

These were the lucky women that had

received no communication at all. If

3:52:583:53:05

these women had been adequately

informed, sufficient measures could

3:53:053:53:10

have been put in place. Madam Deputy

Speaker, it is these women that I

3:53:103:53:16

would like to speak on behalf of the

day. I have heard first-hand from

3:53:163:53:21

one woman in my constituency who has

a disabled husband and has therefore

3:53:213:53:26

been the breadwinner, despite being

in a low paid, physically demanding

3:53:263:53:32

job. At 63, she still has to work

every single weekend, despite being

3:53:323:53:39

in very poor health herself. She

works weekends instead of resting

3:53:393:53:44

and during the week, she helps care

for her grandchildren who have quite

3:53:443:53:47

a distance away, in order to help

her own son and daughter-in-law with

3:53:473:53:53

the cost of childcare. This woman

never rests. And she is terrified of

3:53:533:53:59

going off sick in case she loses her

job. These stories and many others

3:53:593:54:05

like this are common throughout the

country and especially in places

3:54:053:54:08

like Leigh well of paid local work

unfortunately is commonplace. Had

3:54:083:54:13

these women been able to plan for

irate retirement or received

3:54:133:54:17

adequate support during their time

of crisis, they may have been able

3:54:173:54:22

to retain their independence. The

Government have treated these women

3:54:223:54:28

with total disregard, failing to

show any sympathy to those planning

3:54:283:54:31

their entire lives around their

state pension age, before the

3:54:313:54:35

Government to the goalposts. This

total communication failure has

3:54:353:54:41

resulted in an understandable amount

of stress and anxiety amongst

3:54:413:54:44

certain groups in particular. And

the effects this will have on their

3:54:443:54:49

livelihoods and family and health

has already begun to take effect.

3:54:493:54:54

Fortunately for us in Leigh, our

women born in the 1950s have become

3:54:543:54:58

a support group. For other women

affected. It is constituted and

3:54:583:55:03

become a support organisation, they

can talk and help one another and

3:55:033:55:08

plan for their future is with those

in the exact situation they find

3:55:083:55:12

themselves in. I therefore wish to

pay particular credit to the Leigh

3:55:123:55:18

pension group, who I know we'll be

watching this debate with great

3:55:183:55:20

interest. They are an inspirational

group to be around and I am sure the

3:55:203:55:25

House would join me in thanking them

for writing such fantastic support

3:55:253:55:29

to those women affected. And

generally the 19th, Manchester will

3:55:293:55:34

be following the bigger sample of

Leigh in lighting up the Town Hall

3:55:343:55:39

in purple in support of WASPI women.

-- on January the 19. It is

3:55:393:55:46

important our community show

solidarity and sensate clear message

3:55:463:55:49

to those affected that we stand with

you and you will not be alone. --

3:55:493:55:54

sends a clear message.

I think the honourable member for

3:55:543:56:01

Islington for prompting this debate.

Before I start, I would like to

3:56:013:56:05

declare an interest in this issue,

as I am one of the women affected by

3:56:053:56:09

these changes, born in the 1950s.

Surprisingly and unbelievably! But I

3:56:093:56:17

am not standing here today speaking

in this debate just for myself. I am

3:56:173:56:22

speaking for the 7,000 women in my

constituency of Conan Valley

3:56:223:56:29

affected by the shambolic changes

the government has brought in

3:56:293:56:33

without warning or notice. -- macro

two. We have heard that those on the

3:56:333:56:40

Government benches care about 90

fifties WASPI women and they make

3:56:403:56:44

impassioned speeches about the

issue. And then they advise them to

3:56:443:56:47

take an apprenticeship. Madam Deputy

Speaker, I do not want to spend time

3:56:473:56:53

focusing on the Government benches

and I will focus on the issue before

3:56:533:56:56

us. We all know the way the

Government chose to role that these

3:56:563:57:01

changes was wrong. Just plain wrong.

We need only to look back through

3:57:013:57:06

the official records to see how

often Honourable Members and right

3:57:063:57:10

honourable members have spoken on

the issue. Today, I would like to

3:57:103:57:15

add my voice. I would like to tell

you about a constituent of mine,

3:57:153:57:20

Susan, who lives in the Colne

Valley. When Susan was 49, she

3:57:203:57:24

injured herself at work and she

tried to work for several years, but

3:57:243:57:27

had to leave, she could not manage.

Susan was meant to get her pension

3:57:273:57:32

at 60, then it was moved to 62. Now

it is 65. She gets 500 a month from

3:57:323:57:40

a private pension. She is also a

carer for her mother and she earns

3:57:403:57:48

£62 a week, 436 hours of care. Susan

has £800 per month live on. And in

3:57:483:57:54

£14 of that pays council tax. £80

goes towards her boss there to see

3:57:543:58:00

her mother. After her expenses are

taken out, Susan has £50 to live on

3:58:003:58:06

per week. She usually eats Weetabix

for her evening meal when she gets

3:58:063:58:11

home because that is all she can

afford. She does not get a bus pass

3:58:113:58:15

and heating allowance. Susan is on

her own so it does not -- so does

3:58:153:58:20

not have the support from a partner.

Can the Minister really tell me that

3:58:203:58:24

these changes are not having a

detrimental impact on Susan's

3:58:243:58:28

quality-of-life? Let's all for just

a moment but ourselves in Susan's

3:58:283:58:35

shoes. Someone who, through no fault

of their own, is unable to work,

3:58:353:58:41

with no disposable income at the end

of the month and was providing a

3:58:413:58:44

vital service for being a carer for

her mother. Poverty for those

3:58:443:58:48

affected by the state pension

changes is a reality. No one in the

3:58:483:58:54

UK should be facing a choice between

heating or eating because of the

3:58:543:59:00

change this Government has made to

the legislation. Don't ignore the

3:59:003:59:05

voices of we 1950s women because we

are not going away. Pay us what we

3:59:053:59:10

are due!

I am pleased to follow my

honourable friend for Colne Valley

3:59:103:59:18

who spoke beautifully. I am also a

1950s woman. But I am speaking in

3:59:183:59:24

this debate because there are 6300

of my constituents affected by this.

3:59:243:59:32

We are all in favour of

equalisation, but we need a proper

3:59:323:59:36

transitional period and that is what

these women have not been given.

3:59:363:59:40

That is why it is on there. They had

no time to prepare, no time to save,

3:59:403:59:47

their legitimate expectations have

not been met and some have lost

3:59:473:59:51

significant amounts of money. Even

though they had been paying National

3:59:513:59:55

Insurance contributions for many,

many years.

3:59:554:00:01

Ministers say it is because life

expectancy is rising. It is of no

4:00:014:00:10

reassurance to people knowing a baby

born our live till 83. When they

4:00:104:00:14

were born the average life

expectancy was 72. That's a look at

4:00:144:00:18

the differences in different parts

of the country but even in my

4:00:184:00:22

constituency, in the most well off

Ward, the healthy life expectancy is

4:00:224:00:26

71. But it -- the healthy life

expectancy in another ward is 65

4:00:264:00:37

when I started work in 1979I

expected to retire next year, aged

4:00:374:00:42

60. Now I have to work till 2024.

The big difference between me and my

4:00:424:00:52

constituents is that I've started

work aged 21, having stayed on at

4:00:524:00:57

school, and been a university. Many

of my constituents started work on

4:00:574:01:02

leaving school aged 15. Take ruse.

She started aged 15 and she worked

4:01:024:01:11

in local government and health. She

has three children and six

4:01:114:01:15

grandchildren. She thought she was

retiring at 60 in order to look

4:01:154:01:19

after her dear old mum. Now she has

to go back to work to sustain her

4:01:194:01:25

husband, her children, her mother.

She says physically, emotionally,

4:01:254:01:29

financially, where is the time, help

and energy going to come from? She

4:01:294:01:38

is in the same situation. She has

had three jobs to help her family.

4:01:384:01:48

Pamela left her job on Friday went

to work on Monday. Jane, working for

4:01:484:01:54

70 hours a week from the age of 15

she finished at 54 with a

4:01:544:01:59

disability. And Jane and Pamela,

exemplified those people who are now

4:01:594:02:05

being moved on to employment support

allowance. They are using up their

4:02:054:02:11

savings, which they have put by all

their retirement. They are not

4:02:114:02:18

exceptional, they are not unusual,

the number of women aged over 60 has

4:02:184:02:24

shot up four fold.

I am very

grateful. She has made some very

4:02:244:02:33

powerful points. Especially with

regard to women, especially in the

4:02:334:02:39

North East. A number of us from, the

Wales and other industrial

4:02:394:02:44

heartlands for the women have worked

for almost 50 years and will be in

4:02:444:02:47

the position of maybe then having a

very short life expectancy after

4:02:474:02:51

they retire. It is just unfair.

Would she agree with me about that

4:02:514:02:58

unfairness?

I do. My overall message

to ministers that they should stop

4:02:584:03:04

looking at the actuarial tables and

start to listen to the way lives are

4:03:044:03:07

lived. Because, I have more

examples. Chris wanted to stay on at

4:03:074:03:13

school and get more education but

her father made her go out to work

4:03:134:03:18

aged 15. Sue, Jane, Diane, Judith

and Jane, they all say the same

4:03:184:03:24

thing could Jane has lost £40,000

through this. Dop says, quite

4:03:244:03:29

simply, I am so tired. --.. I think

we need to be honest about this and

4:03:294:03:36

look at this in a radical wave my

honourable friend on the front bench

4:03:364:03:41

has made many sensible suggestions

for how did my honourable friend

4:03:414:03:44

from Easington. I think we need to

think in terms of the pension system

4:03:444:03:48

which takes account of when you

started work. It is obviously the

4:03:484:03:54

case that a person who started work

at 15 should not have to work ten

4:03:544:03:59

years longer to get their pension,

as a person who probably has better

4:03:594:04:05

health, probably has an easier job

than a person who carried on with

4:04:054:04:12

their education into their mid-20s.

I would like to thank my honourable

4:04:124:04:17

friend for bringing this to be

forward. Was thinking about what to

4:04:174:04:21

say today that I had spoken in every

single Waspi debate since I was

4:04:214:04:32

elected. The Government is treating

them like they were dealing with a

4:04:324:04:39

dodgy comic used-car salesman. I

have to say, I thought I'd what I

4:04:394:04:43

will do, I will talk about the

injustice of the Government already

4:04:434:04:47

knows about the injustice. The

Government will say, it will trot

4:04:474:04:52

out the old arguments about people

living longer. That is no longer

4:04:524:04:57

true. Life expectancy is in decline

now. He will also stand up and talk

4:04:574:05:05

to us about... Can I just say, Madam

Deputy Speaker, whether we are

4:05:054:05:12

living to 80 or 150, that is not the

point at issue today? The point is

4:05:124:05:19

that the Waspi women were not given

proper notice. That is the issue

4:05:194:05:22

today and as what I would like the

minister to focus on. -- and that

4:05:224:05:28

was what. I would like to talk about

the hardship. The Government has

4:05:284:05:32

heard it time and again. Was also

going to talk about the cruelty of

4:05:324:05:36

moving someone proper pension age

further and further away every time

4:05:364:05:40

they approach it. The minister knows

that as well. He has heard it a

4:05:404:05:45

dozen times. I could also talk about

the caring responsibilities these

4:05:454:05:50

women have taken on. The minister

knows about that as well as

4:05:504:05:52

everybody else in this chamber. What

I will talk about briefly is the

4:05:524:05:58

social contact. People in the

chamber have talked about what this

4:05:584:06:02

will cost and whether we can afford

it. I would suggest to the minister

4:06:024:06:06

we cannot afford not to address this

matter. It goes to the heart of the

4:06:064:06:11

social contract between those who

govern, those who govern us, and

4:06:114:06:14

those who are governed by us. If

people can not have faith in the

4:06:144:06:20

contracts they have with those they

elected to represent them, where can

4:06:204:06:25

they find justice? Where can they

find support? The fact is the social

4:06:254:06:29

contract has been ripped up by this

government Crawley and callously.

4:06:294:06:34

The honourable lady from Bury St

Edmunds has talked about Waspi women

4:06:344:06:39

as though they were a burden on the

state. Nothing can be further from

4:06:394:06:44

the trees. The minister and others

from the past have spoken about

4:06:444:06:49

apprenticeships. -- the trees. There

might be some Waspi women who are

4:06:494:06:54

terribly excited about the prospect

of a £3.50 apprenticeship. I have

4:06:544:06:58

not met them. Waspi women are not

interested in whether one not to get

4:06:584:07:06

a telegram from the Queen. The fact

is that does not pay the bills will

4:07:064:07:09

put food on the table. As far as I

am aware, unless the card is edible

4:07:094:07:16

it is not much use these women have

been let down. They are living in

4:07:164:07:22

hardship through no fault of their

own. It really is time that the

4:07:224:07:27

Government recognised in contrast to

their impassive, stubborn, and I'm

4:07:274:07:31

feeling lack of response, we have

the dignity and fortitude of these

4:07:314:07:36

Waspi women and everyone who is

watching this debate can see the

4:07:364:07:39

difference between these two camps.

I would urge the minister to get a

4:07:394:07:44

grip, do the right thing, and give

these women the money they are

4:07:444:07:48

entitled to.

Before I call Luke

pollard, I am sure our Right

4:07:484:07:59

Honourable members will be very

pleased to hear that the Speaker of

4:07:594:08:02

the Kosovo parliament is with us.

Welcome this evening.

Thank you. I

4:08:024:08:11

would like to thank the member for

Easington, not only for calling this

4:08:114:08:15

debate that join my Facebook life

last night taking questions from

4:08:154:08:20

Waspi women in Plymouth. I would

like to declare an interest, I am a

4:08:204:08:25

son of a Waspi women and very proud

to be saved. Instead of being

4:08:254:08:30

treated with dignity, these women

are struggling to make ends meet.

4:08:304:08:33

Without enough money to spend on

food or heat their homes where they

4:08:334:08:37

have worked hard all their lives

were paid their taxes, raise

4:08:374:08:42

children got contributed to society,

cared for their loved ones and

4:08:424:08:45

believed when they are tired the

state would honour the obligations

4:08:454:08:48

set out to support them for that

this has not happened and it is a

4:08:484:08:52

disgrace. There are 78,010, and

women who deserve pension justice in

4:08:524:08:56

Devon. In Plymouth, there are 8000

Waspi women. The only Plymouth MP to

4:08:564:09:05

be here today, I speak but only for

the 5703 Waspi women but for all of

4:09:054:09:10

them put all these women deserve

justice for their pensions which

4:09:104:09:13

have been stolen by this government.

Since I became a Member of

4:09:134:09:18

Parliament, I have found the Waspi

campaigners to be decent, honourable

4:09:184:09:22

women who are passionate and

determined to get justice. To

4:09:224:09:26

Jackie, Morticia and others, I say

they are an inspiration. I would say

4:09:264:09:31

to my Oracle friend for Gower, there

are many Waspi women not here for

4:09:314:09:36

the debate. They have lost their

battles and are no longer here. They

4:09:364:09:43

have been denied pension justice.

Many of these women were not active

4:09:434:09:49

campaigners or political activists

beforehand. It is so important to

4:09:494:09:53

stress these incredible campaigners

did not choose from all wanted out

4:09:534:09:57

the life of an activist, like many

of us in this place have chosen.

4:09:574:10:01

Many of them would have enjoyed a

quiet life in their retirement with

4:10:014:10:04

a pension, embarking on the plans

many have taken years to prepare.

4:10:044:10:08

The injustice they face has been

sprang upon them and has forced them

4:10:084:10:17

to stand up and campaign on this

issue. These women of the same

4:10:174:10:20

generation that fought for equality,

fought against poverty, and now they

4:10:204:10:22

are fighting for the very justice

they return in retirement, a decent

4:10:224:10:25

pension. I have spoken to many brave

women, Waspi women, Waspi

4:10:254:10:32

campaigners, like Bernice, like

vile, like Jackie, who have wanted

4:10:324:10:35

to share their stories, so they can

be heard. -- valve. So many women

4:10:354:10:42

have hoped for dignity in retirement

are now facing poverty and

4:10:424:10:46

humiliation. It is a point that has

been raised by many people will stop

4:10:464:10:51

these Waspi are proud. They wanted

to do the right thing and thought

4:10:514:10:56

they had been doing the right thing

can only to find at the last moment

4:10:564:11:01

that them doing the right thing was

in fact not right because the

4:11:014:11:06

Government has failed to communicate

to them. They are proud women who

4:11:064:11:09

have worked hard and they deserve a

decent pension.

Will my honourable

4:11:094:11:15

friend give way?

I will not. I

apologise. These Waspi women have

4:11:154:11:21

been betrayed. They have been robbed

of their dignity. When they needed

4:11:214:11:26

help from the Government they were

insulted. The minister's comments,

4:11:264:11:30

and I believe him to be a good man

who has taken a lot of stick on

4:11:304:11:33

this. He is in the perfect position

to give these Waspi women hope. I

4:11:334:11:38

say that the trust about

apprenticeships, it has not built

4:11:384:11:46

trust in the Government. Let's have

a decent settlement for women. The

4:11:464:11:52

minister and the Government is on

the wrong side of history that these

4:11:524:11:55

temp Awomen are not going away for

that they will fight on. -- these

4:11:554:12:00

Waspi women. As the son of a Waspi

women, neither will I.

I stand to

4:12:004:12:08

speak again on behalf of the 6500

women affected. I would like to page

4:12:084:12:13

to the campaign is up and down the

United Kingdom including my local

4:12:134:12:18

Waspi group. I compared the

different world the Tories living

4:12:184:12:23

compared to the real world and right

on cue up popped the honourable

4:12:234:12:28

member for Redditch arguing that

women aged 65 should be able to get

4:12:284:12:33

apprenticeships. It beggars belief

that they think this is a credible

4:12:334:12:37

option. Apprentices over the age of

19 are only entitled to a minimum

4:12:374:12:43

wage of £3.50 an hour. Bus passes at

an earlier age no way makes up for

4:12:434:12:53

this injustice. I would point out

that in Scotland the SNP government

4:12:534:12:58

gives a bus pass at the age of 60.

That means we are doing nothing for

4:12:584:13:02

the women in Scotland. Whilst

thinking about these things

4:13:024:13:05

yesterday, I got an e-mail from my

honourable member for looking to

4:13:054:13:09

raise funds to bring back the Royal

yacht Britannia for that you cannot

4:13:094:13:14

raise that that is never make that

up that that is considered to be an

4:13:144:13:19

actual campaign while all these

injustices are going on. -- you

4:13:194:13:27

cannot make that up. In the real

world we have the British medical

4:13:274:13:32

Journal reporting which estimates

120,000 deaths are triggered a ball

4:13:324:13:36

to Tory austerities measures. Also,

in this free world, there are Waspi

4:13:364:13:43

women suffering from cancer who will

lose their houses and husbands are

4:13:434:13:47

stressed at having to work longer to

try to keep the house of going.

4:13:474:13:52

Meanwhile, her MP, the honourable

member has confirmed to another

4:13:524:14:01

Waspi woman, in government difficult

decisions have to be made. Nobody in

4:14:014:14:06

here is promising that. We want

justice for these women. They should

4:14:064:14:12

get the money they are untitled two.

It is also said that successive

4:14:124:14:19

governments have taken adequate

steps. That is effectively saying it

4:14:194:14:25

is these women's fault they did not

know about it. No one can credibly

4:14:254:14:30

say that successive governments have

not informed the women properly. The

4:14:304:14:34

Tory government mitigated on the

pensions act. That is like saying

4:14:344:14:40

the school bully demanded £3 of view

and only took £2 and therefore there

4:14:404:14:45

is a £1 mitigation measure. That is

not medication at all. In the wider

4:14:454:14:51

world, the Scottish Tories argue

about a technicality and the

4:14:514:14:54

Scottish cup and have the powers to

do something about it. The Scottish

4:14:544:14:58

Government does not have a problem

to deal with pensions. At the same

4:14:584:15:03

time, the budget has been cut

between £2.5 billion and is also

4:15:034:15:07

having to mitigate other cuts like

the bedroom tax and the council tax.

4:15:074:15:14

It is this minister that refused to

devolve pensions and vote autonomy

4:15:144:15:17

in Scotland.

4:15:174:15:22

There has been arguments how much

mitigation measures may cost and in

4:15:224:15:28

the last debate, the Government

managed £370 billion for good

4:15:284:15:33

measure in terms of the reversal of

the 1995 pensions act although we

4:15:334:15:39

did not call for that. I have

updated figures from the House of

4:15:394:15:45

Commons library about corporation

tax, inheritance tax, savings

4:15:454:15:49

concession and higher tax threshold

and for the year 2025, this will

4:15:494:15:55

cost £63 billion, corporation tax

will cost £50 billion. The solution

4:15:554:16:03

is staring you in the face, that is

the choices that people have to

4:16:034:16:06

make.

Thank you, the honourable

member for Easington for securing

4:16:064:16:13

this debate. To put on record being

part of a generation, my mother is a

4:16:134:16:19

WASPI was B, the daughter of a WASPI

woman, what is worse than the

4:16:194:16:22

so-called burden on my generation or

younger generations is seeing your

4:16:224:16:29

mother not getting what she deserves

and the consequences of that. So I

4:16:294:16:33

definitely do not see that as a

burden. There is an overwhelming

4:16:334:16:36

case to reach a compensatory

arrangement for women who through no

4:16:364:16:42

fault of their own have been robbed

of a decent retirement. Despite this

4:16:424:16:47

long debate, I am sure those women

do not feel as though their voices

4:16:474:16:50

will be heard by this Government,

but we will see when the Minister

4:16:504:16:54

rises. If the hardship was really

hurt, the Government would take

4:16:544:16:58

action. When I asked women to share

their experiences, they were stopped

4:16:584:17:03

and heartbreaking. And contrary to

the individualised nature of the

4:17:034:17:08

comments opposite, there were

patterns, it was a collective

4:17:084:17:12

experience. And some of those are

these. They have been left without

4:17:124:17:18

information by the DWP, that is

clear and undisputed. The word they

4:17:184:17:23

used repeatedly was cheated, in

relation to how they felt. The lack

4:17:234:17:28

of notification has consequences,

that is clear and call up the

4:17:284:17:30

disputed. Those women often started

work at 15 and suddenly have to rip

4:17:304:17:36

up their retirement plans and

scratch around to make a living.

4:17:364:17:39

Because of new and sudden realities

they have been forced into often

4:17:394:17:48

backbreaking zero hours work without

job satisfaction just to make it

4:17:484:17:51

through their retirement age.

Dullness has made them desperate and

4:17:514:17:55

trapped and searching for ways to

make ends meet which is frightening

4:17:554:17:59

in this new financial environment.

Financial insecurity and poverty

4:17:594:18:04

have led to many experiencing acute

mental health problems. Caring

4:18:044:18:09

responsibilities have left them

exhausted and with gaps in their

4:18:094:18:12

pension through no fault of their

own. These women who have worked all

4:18:124:18:16

of their lives and have not had the

advantages of many in this place and

4:18:164:18:22

for many for whom life has been a

struggle have got utterly let down

4:18:224:18:27

by the DWP and their representatives

in this House and government. What

4:18:274:18:31

happens in this place has massive

consequences. Listen to this

4:18:314:18:35

one-woman's reality, she is living

from hand to mouth, it is whether

4:18:354:18:38

she can heat or eat. She is not in

the best of health and cannot go to

4:18:384:18:42

work if sick and does not get paid,

she should not be in this position,

4:18:424:18:47

she says, she says, she should have

been informed years ago of the

4:18:474:18:50

massive increase to her state

pension. Additional six years to

4:18:504:18:53

work is on there. The best part of a

decade and that means a lot in your

4:18:534:18:58

60s. She feels hopeless amber

straight. She says, what will my

4:18:584:19:02

help elect inability that in another

four years, will I ever get to enjoy

4:19:024:19:08

my route retirement? Truly

heartbreaking. There are thousands

4:19:084:19:10

of these women in my constituency of

North West Durham who want to know

4:19:104:19:15

where their money is. They want to

know how this contractual

4:19:154:19:19

relationship with the state can be

ripped up. How there are no

4:19:194:19:25

consequences to the administrative

inadequacies of the state. They know

4:19:254:19:28

that where there is a will, there is

a way. Please give these women the

4:19:284:19:33

future that is rightfully theirs.

And when they do win, they will not

4:19:334:19:37

be grateful, but they will be glad

they did not give up.

4:19:374:19:45

I also woke up this morning and also

taught, what am I going to say?

4:19:454:19:51

Because I have said everything

multiple times and there is only so

4:19:514:19:54

many different ways you can state

the same facts. I got an e-mail from

4:19:544:19:58

a lady called Hazel. She said out of

curiosity that she wanted to go

4:19:584:20:04

looking for these old TV adverts of

this multi-million pound campaign

4:20:044:20:08

that apparently happened from the

Government. Since we have focused so

4:20:084:20:13

much on communication today, this is

a very valid point. She showed me

4:20:134:20:17

these videos, these different

adverts. There were three we could

4:20:174:20:20

find. In the archives. The first

version is presumably for women. It

4:20:204:20:28

is very patronising, as is the one

aimed at guys. And it is two dogs

4:20:284:20:32

talking to each other through a

field and one says how it is so

4:20:324:20:38

confused by pensions because there

is that many different types. The

4:20:384:20:42

other dog says, well, the government

has this great new handy book that

4:20:424:20:45

you can request to be sent and the

punch line is, is that you are a

4:20:454:20:50

Guide Dog now? The banter is very

good! That is not an adequate advert

4:20:504:20:56

in the slightest to get across these

grave changes that happened. But my

4:20:564:21:02

favourite one was the third advert,

just ten seconds and half of the

4:21:024:21:07

video is a dog chasing its tail with

no dialogue whatsoever. And it sums

4:21:074:21:12

up the Government's reactions to

this entire saga. They are the

4:21:124:21:17

spinning in one circle, refusing to

acknowledge the fact is people are

4:21:174:21:21

pointing out. I raise this for two

reasons. One is because it is the

4:21:214:21:28

only new thing I have got to add.

Two, because the onus is still on

4:21:284:21:33

the women to request information.

The onus is still on them to find

4:21:334:21:36

out what the Government might or

might not be up to with their

4:21:364:21:39

pensions. It is incredible that we

are still having to have this debate

4:21:394:21:45

because as far as I am aware, this

is my 13th debate since I was

4:21:454:21:49

elected and I know there were

debates before this. The key point

4:21:494:21:53

coming through is at no point are

these changes explicitly mentioned

4:21:534:21:57

and at no point have these been

communicated to the women affected.

4:21:574:22:01

I like to think everyone until my

honourable member's speech, I

4:22:014:22:06

thought everybody in here was an

agreement that there was pure

4:22:064:22:09

communication for many years. I

think that still stands. It is a

4:22:094:22:18

case it was both Labour and

Conservative government that ignored

4:22:184:22:21

this problem and there still is a

huge communication problem we have

4:22:214:22:24

to look at. But from that fact and

admission that there is a

4:22:244:22:29

communication problem, we can safely

draw two conclusions. First is the

4:22:294:22:34

most important, which that these

women are utterly blameless in this

4:22:344:22:38

entire thing. Second, it is an

admission of guilt on the part of

4:22:384:22:44

the Government. It is a recognition

that the institution of government

4:22:444:22:50

has failed these same women again

and again and again. The member for

4:22:504:22:57

North Cornwall earlier said the 2011

act was rushed, I agree with that,

4:22:574:23:01

it was shoved in at the last minute

and all of a sudden, we said, wait a

4:23:014:23:06

second, there is a 1995 act, this

has kicked off! Instead of doing the

4:23:064:23:10

sensible thing and going, let's step

back and see what we can do to solve

4:23:104:23:16

this, the government has decided to

run ahead with it anyway. So can we

4:23:164:23:19

do with the fact that the job of

President governments is to fix the

4:23:194:23:24

mistakes of previous governments? --

current governments. That is

4:23:244:23:28

literally why we're here, the move

society forward and it is not going

4:23:284:23:32

to get anywhere the response is

always, yes, it was rubbish, but

4:23:324:23:36

let's move on. That is all we are

getting from the government. We can

4:23:364:23:41

shout about whose fault it is until

we are a Tory shade of blue in the

4:23:414:23:45

face, it will not fix. I recognise

this Government has made slight

4:23:454:23:51

compressions to the 2011 act and

gave some women extra months, but it

4:23:514:23:56

was an inadequate response because

it neglected the chaos started back

4:23:564:24:02

in 1995 -- it was not an adequate

response. So can we focus more on

4:24:024:24:06

how we fix it now rather than

getting drawn into this blame game

4:24:064:24:09

of whose fault it is all is not? The

SNP produced a report, doing the

4:24:094:24:19

Government's job for it, saying the

£8 billion spent across five years

4:24:194:24:24

could effectively revert back to the

original timetable of the 1995 act,

4:24:244:24:28

allowing for it lot of breathing

space for a lot of women, especially

4:24:284:24:32

those worst affected. The National

Insurance fund is £23 billion.

4:24:324:24:38

People can disagree with that all

they want and I am happy to talk

4:24:384:24:42

after and I will come to the

honourable gentleman specifically

4:24:424:24:44

from South Suffolk. He mentioned

about the problems the pension

4:24:444:24:52

system faces. I have to say, the

spirit of his speech I completely

4:24:524:24:56

agreed with. I understand when

Gordon Brown was mentioned, it was

4:24:564:25:01

because he had a field day with the

pensions pot and made things a lot

4:25:014:25:05

more complicated for everybody. I

accept that as a reality and it is

4:25:054:25:09

an historical fact. It is because I

agree with the honourable member

4:25:094:25:14

about these grave concerns, it is

why we need to fix this problem.

4:25:144:25:17

Because we always say this ultimate

of it is on there to put onto the

4:25:174:25:22

younger generations because they

will be footing the bill at this

4:25:224:25:26

pay-as-you-go system as you referred

to. Well, I am from that generation

4:25:264:25:30

and I look at this problem and I

say, these women have done nothing

4:25:304:25:33

wrong. The Government is still able

to afford all these things that I

4:25:334:25:39

don't think that important. They are

really saying they will not act

4:25:394:25:44

because the me? Wait, why should I

pay National Insurance if at the

4:25:444:25:49

last hurdle, the government could

just change the rules and move the

4:25:494:25:52

goalposts? Why is my generation

going to take anything the

4:25:524:25:56

government says seriously? That is

why we have to be grown-up about

4:25:564:25:59

this. I cannot believe I have to say

that in here, this is a problem that

4:25:594:26:04

we need to fix and address, it is

above the party politics. So let's

4:26:044:26:09

be practical. And this is where I

recognise that me and the honourable

4:26:094:26:14

gentleman will disagree, I say that

this comes down to top political

4:26:144:26:17

choices. We have a deal with the DUP

to maintain power, we have got

4:26:174:26:22

billions of pounds being spent on

Trident, refurbishment for this

4:26:224:26:26

place, we have heard the ridiculous

campaigns of Royal yachts and

4:26:264:26:30

things. I am sorry, that is just not

a priority right now. This was a

4:26:304:26:36

contract that these women entered,

National Insurance is a contract, it

4:26:364:26:38

is a basic fundamental of our state

is it functions, of our welfare

4:26:384:26:44

state. And we cannot undermine that,

and that is all this Government is

4:26:444:26:48

doing. If this was a private company

they would rightly be getting

4:26:484:26:51

dragged through the courts right

now. I really think the Government

4:26:514:26:54

should reflect. On my last point.

The honourable member for Bury St

4:26:544:27:03

Edmunds, I don't know if I said that

right! She said section 28 of the

4:27:034:27:06

Scotland Act 2016 gives the Scottish

Parliament the power to mitigate

4:27:064:27:12

these changes. I have got a real

problem with this. Section 28 of the

4:27:124:27:19

Scotland Act 2016 states, we cannot

give pensioner systems or assistance

4:27:194:27:24

by reason of old age. We are not

allowed to do it. Pensions are

4:27:244:27:30

completely reserved. When we

campaigned to get pensions devolved,

4:27:304:27:35

we were told, no. Like I said in my

last speech, sorry?

I am grateful

4:27:354:27:42

for giving way. Would she also agree

that her SNP government Minister did

4:27:424:27:46

say in a letter to the UK Government

I accept that old age is not defined

4:27:464:27:52

in the legislation and that most

people would not regard this age

4:27:524:27:56

group, WASPI women, as old? And when

she speaks about pensions, which she

4:27:564:28:00

also agree that these women are not

pensioners because they have not

4:28:004:28:04

received their state pension and so

there may be an opportunity to use

4:28:044:28:08

that?

An opportunity, that is all I

ask. I appreciate that, but the

4:28:084:28:11

reason these WASPI women are not

receiving their pension is because

4:28:114:28:17

this UK Government will not give it

to them! That is a ridiculous

4:28:174:28:21

motion. I want to commend the

honourable member because he did

4:28:214:28:24

supporters on the opposition and

that is a commendable and brave

4:28:244:28:27

think to do so fair play to the guy.

This is just a totally British Chris

4:28:274:28:32

point of view. I'm going to explain

exactly why. I am coming to my

4:28:324:28:40

concluding remarks, I disagree with

Labour on constitutional basis. That

4:28:404:28:44

is because I want to cut out the

middleman, this is the perfect

4:28:444:28:47

example of why I supported

independence, we paying taxes to

4:28:474:28:52

come to London to be told by a

Conservative government what we can

4:28:524:28:54

spend the money on and the irony is

when these policies start to take

4:28:544:29:00

effect, the Government turned round

and goes, we want the Scottish

4:29:004:29:03

Government to fix it! I don't think

so, if you want to devolve pensions,

4:29:034:29:07

great, until then, this is a UK

problem, a conserved the problem,

4:29:074:29:11

and it is not going away and it has

to be fixed and it hacks to be fixed

4:29:114:29:15

soon, do the right thing!

-- it has

to be fixed. I would like to

4:29:154:29:22

congratulate my honourable friend

the member for Easington on securing

4:29:224:29:26

this important debate and I am

absolutely delighted to be able to

4:29:264:29:29

speak in support of his motion.

4:29:294:29:37

Some fantastic contributions and I

would like to thank each and every

4:29:374:29:39

one of you. I think on the whole it

has been a cross party wreck rising

4:29:394:29:46

that the real injustice that women

born in the ranking 50s have been

4:29:464:29:49

dealt. -- 1950s. There can be no

doubt that women have borne the

4:29:494:29:57

brunt of this governments cuts over

the years. Particularly women born

4:29:574:30:01

in the 1950s have been dealt a real

injustice in regards to the

4:30:014:30:07

accelerated increase in women's

pension age. Very briefly.

Does she

4:30:074:30:14

agree with me that it is no surprise

that 1950s women like my

4:30:144:30:19

constituents feel robbed because

they work hard for 45 years, they

4:30:194:30:24

save their bodies are giving up and

they can't get the pensions that

4:30:244:30:27

they paid for?

There are so many

different cases and I will touch on

4:30:274:30:33

a couple if I may in relation to

that. These women have had their

4:30:334:30:39

state pension age quietly pushed

back for many without any notice.

4:30:394:30:44

Expecting to retire at 60 only to

find that they have three or more

4:30:444:30:47

years to wait. Madam Deputy Speaker

and despite these appalling stories

4:30:474:30:54

of the dire circumstances these

women are facing the Government has

4:30:544:30:57

still refused to provide a

transitional support. During our

4:30:574:31:01

national pension store which my

honourable friend started the

4:31:014:31:06

summer, we heard from many women who

are not just struggling near facing

4:31:064:31:09

destitution. A couple of cases I

will mention free briefly. All

4:31:094:31:14

anonymous. I have been paying

international insurance for 43 years

4:31:144:31:19

but have no private pension or

anything else for that matter. I

4:31:194:31:22

have supported to children on my own

salary as a divorced single parent.

4:31:224:31:26

I had notification in the 1995 that

but if you break 20, I was told my

4:31:264:31:34

retirement date was made to 2019. I

will be so defied in four months. I

4:31:344:31:38

have worked, have extra convocations

and had good jobs. At 603I am

4:31:384:31:45

unemployed. I have little savings.

I've applied for over 40 jobs since

4:31:454:31:49

September I am at my wits end. The

second one if I can briefly

4:31:494:31:56

mentioned this I don't remember I

ever got a letter saying my pension

4:31:564:31:59

may just change. I'm disabled and it

had a lot of stress of things going

4:31:594:32:04

on in the past two years. Worrying

about... The news that the DLA is

4:32:044:32:11

changing. The changes state pension

age just sort of crept in there and

4:32:114:32:15

keep to my attention when WASPI

had... I heard that not only would I

4:32:154:32:23

get my state pension when I was 16

but I would... I'm tired of not

4:32:234:32:28

mattering. Madam Deputy Speaker

these women deserve more than this.

4:32:284:32:34

As he afforded many have had to rely

on the wider Social Security system

4:32:344:32:39

beyond the state pension to survive.

This means if they are claiming

4:32:394:32:44

jobseeker's allowance or Universal

Credit they are expected to

4:32:444:32:47

undertake 35 hours a week of job

search activity or to be sanctioned.

4:32:474:32:52

I would be great for the Minister

would comment on the recommendation

4:32:524:32:55

in the final report into the state

pension age would suggest that older

4:32:554:33:01

job-seekers should only be required

to find part-time work. Does the

4:33:014:33:06

Government support district second

Asian? Madam Deputy Speaker won the

4:33:064:33:11

plight of women born in the 1950s

was first raised toward tension by

4:33:114:33:17

WASPI. They said 8 million women

were affected either changes. -- 8

4:33:174:33:25

million women were affected by

changes. Only hundred 50,000 have

4:33:254:33:33

reached their revise estate pension

age to date. By 2026 they will all

4:33:334:33:41

retire. There is palpable and

justifiable anger from these women.

4:33:414:33:45

As they have said they have done the

right thing, worked all their lives

4:33:454:33:49

and paid into the system for

decades, cared for their children,

4:33:494:33:52

care for their parents only for the

goalposts to be moved. Many are

4:33:524:33:57

seeking these overdressed against

the Government. They need action now

4:33:574:34:00

about ten or 20 years' time. Labour

has presented two options that the

4:34:004:34:06

Government could take forward now.

The first, which was included in our

4:34:064:34:10

manifesto, is the extension of

pension credit to those most badly

4:34:104:34:13

affected by the increase of the age.

Enabling them to get additional

4:34:134:34:18

support based on the 19 95

timetable. This will provide problem

4:34:184:34:24

-- approximate half a million women

on the lowest incomes up to £159 a

4:34:244:34:28

week. We have repeatedly called on

the Government to take these

4:34:284:34:32

measures. Sadly they have refused to

act. Our manifesto commitments that

4:34:324:34:40

we would look at other options as

well. And as such at conference I

4:34:404:34:44

set out an additional option which

would give the women the opportunity

4:34:444:34:48

to retire up to two years earlier,

64 rather than is expected in the

4:34:484:34:53

governments plans. Given that the

Government has so far refused to set

4:34:534:34:57

aside any additional expenditure we

thought it wasn't paired of 2% for

4:34:574:35:03

bozos that were cost neutral. So

there was no excuse to rule this

4:35:034:35:06

option out. Under this option women

born in the 1950s with see a small

4:35:064:35:12

reduction of 6% in their weekly

state pension entitlement for each

4:35:124:35:15

year that they retired early. So

based on a state pension today, a

4:35:154:35:20

woman retiring a year early but

received £49 a week -- 100 £49 a

4:35:204:35:32

week so hundred 55. However as I

said then and I want to reiterate

4:35:324:35:38

now it is a starter. It is to

complement additional action all --

4:35:384:35:46

actual positional protection. These

women need action now. These are two

4:35:464:35:49

options this government could

introduce now. We want to continue

4:35:494:35:52

working with the women to look at

and certainly not to preclude any

4:35:524:35:59

compensation that they should be

given. We want to make sure we write

4:35:594:36:05

the wrong that they have been dealt.

This option was developed after

4:36:054:36:10

listening to women and men as part

of the national state pension into

4:36:104:36:13

discussing the future of our state

engine system. We also met with the

4:36:134:36:17

various 1950s were made lovely

groups at the Minister so profoundly

4:36:174:36:22

was the urgency for many women. They

need something now and can't wait

4:36:224:36:26

six months let alone three, four or

five years. As a all-knowing the

4:36:264:36:32

next few years most women will have

retired by then. I reiterate

4:36:324:36:36

something needs to happen now. But

Madam Deputy Speaker of this

4:36:364:36:41

government has ignored their pleas

for help. He had ignored the

4:36:414:36:45

tangible measures that they could

take. There approaches not only

4:36:454:36:48

morally bankrupt but it shows that

government has no commitment to

4:36:484:36:51

tackling burning injustices and

given the prospect of a lengthy and

4:36:514:36:57

costly court battle as women seek

compensation for the years they have

4:36:574:37:00

lost, is extremely foolhardy. Last

week my honourable friend challenge

4:37:004:37:06

the Government about a could choose

-- contingency plan. The Minister

4:37:064:37:13

said that the Government believed

that they were on firm ground but

4:37:134:37:16

history is littered with court and

other decisions when in justice has

4:37:164:37:20

been proved and governments have had

to pay up. It is clear that this

4:37:204:37:25

government has even less support for

its position regarding 1950s women

4:37:254:37:28

in the House than it does for a

meaningful vote on the negotiated

4:37:284:37:32

settlement with the EU. So to say --

I say to the Minister work with us,

4:37:324:37:38

work with these women, auto

comprehensive set of bridging

4:37:384:37:41

arrangements now.

Thank you Madam

Deputy Speaker. I would like to

4:37:414:37:49

actually my good friend the

honourable member for securing...

4:37:494:37:58

The decisions of Debbie Speaker,

concerning the rise of state pension

4:37:584:38:02

age by successive governments were

reached by equality legislation,

4:38:024:38:09

increased life expectancy and

sustainability of the state tension.

4:38:094:38:13

Since World War II, we have seen

huge changes in life expectancy.

4:38:134:38:17

Thanks to a better national health

service, changes in the job -- job

4:38:174:38:23

market and improvements in medicine

postop improvements for men and

4:38:234:38:26

women such that they are living

longer, staying healthier for longer

4:38:264:38:28

and leading far more act of

lifestyles regardless of our age.

4:38:284:38:33

People living and staying healthier

for longer is to be welcomed. But we

4:38:334:38:37

mustn't as a government ignored that

also brings in them is precious both

4:38:374:38:42

financially and demographically. The

key choice, Madam Debbie Speaker

4:38:424:38:46

commented that the Government faces

with seeking to control is whether

4:38:464:38:50

to eat increased state pension age

or pay lower pensions. The only

4:38:504:38:56

alternative is to ask the working

generation to pay an ever larger

4:38:564:39:00

share of their income to support

pensioners. In July of this year the

4:39:004:39:07

Government publishes the first

review of the state pension age

4:39:074:39:11

sitting on a coherent strategy for

sustaining... In a moment. The UK

4:39:114:39:19

system for many decades to come. As

suggested that -- it takes the

4:39:194:39:27

recommendation to increase the state

pension age and the review is clear

4:39:274:39:33

about increasing life expectancy and

the challenges that it poses. People

4:39:334:39:37

are living longer. In 2015 on people

turned, looked away a second, as

4:39:374:39:44

compared to 3000 people are reached

100 years and 2002. In 2035 there

4:39:444:39:49

were more than twice as many people

did to the honourable Judge.

I

4:39:494:39:55

appreciate the Mr giving away. One I

ask of the Government give us a

4:39:554:40:02

meaningful vote to this because I

know there is a lot of support on

4:40:024:40:05

the opposition and just behind the

Minister and secondly one year

4:40:054:40:12

corporation tax rather than take

that back to business I think

4:40:124:40:15

business be happy to give that to

WASPI women.

The honourable

4:40:154:40:22

gentleman and I were both in the

House of Commons in 2011 when he was

4:40:224:40:25

five foot for the 2011 Mac to

increase the state pension -- to

4:40:254:40:31

increase the state pension. He and I

and the SMP and the Government would

4:40:314:40:42

have if her nephews on taxation

whether for example their support

4:40:424:40:47

for tried and not support for

Trident but with respect of the

4:40:474:40:50

reduction in tax that you are poses

that will be a reduction on the job

4:40:504:40:54

grading powers on the businesses

that we rely upon for the jobs and

4:40:544:40:57

the Outlook services that we also

wish to support I give way to the

4:40:574:41:02

honourable lady.

I'm grateful to the

Minister. Will the Minister

4:41:024:41:06

acknowledged that two days before

the report was released the data

4:41:064:41:12

showed that actually life expectancy

at 60 is actually going down and

4:41:124:41:17

that life except in the ad earth is

flat miming. The only developing

4:41:174:41:21

country where this happen. --

developed country.

I'm grateful she

4:41:214:41:28

has raised that specific one. I

believe she is scaremongering. On

4:41:284:41:38

the issue of life expectancy, on the

issue of life expectancy Madam

4:41:384:41:41

Deputy Speaker there are two

fundamental sources. The first is

4:41:414:41:47

the OMS will have repeatedly made

clear that the life expectancy is

4:41:474:41:50

rising across the board and the

situation is that we must not get

4:41:504:41:57

away from the fact that the alloy

Nasa recently reported only this

4:41:574:42:01

month that life expectancy continues

to rise and the Labour Party

4:42:014:42:07

manifesto seeks to have an

independent review of state and all

4:42:074:42:12

aspects of that, while the

Government did that, it was the

4:42:124:42:15

report and the report makes it clear

that life expectancy has increased

4:42:154:42:20

and not there is absolutely no

question that life expectancy at or

4:42:204:42:28

for example in 2016 was 91 years for

females and I89 years for males and

4:42:284:42:34

in 50 years' time by 2066 by legacy

of birth the predicted to rise to 98

4:42:344:42:40

years. As for healthy life except to

say this is also been increasing

4:42:404:42:45

over recent decades. Healthy life

except in CA 65, as a proportion of

4:42:454:42:51

life except in C, has been

relatively stable since the year

4:42:514:42:55

2000. And in relation to Scotland,

how the life expectancy at 65

4:42:554:43:00

according to the latest that this

cake has been increasing in Scotland

4:43:004:43:03

in recent years as his ability free

life expectancy. And I was latest

4:43:034:43:09

point, in relation to specific areas

of Scotland, the long of it as I do

4:43:094:43:20

not have specific constituency life

expectancy as if they've ask for in

4:43:204:43:22

the past and and has been raised.

For example in the Glasgow city area

4:43:224:43:27

life expectancy at birth in December

of 2017 has increased by over four

4:43:274:43:35

years for man and life expectancy at

65 in Glasgow city is 15 years for

4:43:354:43:40

men and 18 years for women. This has

been increased since 2001. This

4:43:404:43:48

session is made that I am using the

raw data. The data I'm using is the

4:43:484:43:55

Office of National Statistics and

the report. I'm conscious of your

4:43:554:44:00

restrictions on the amount of time

that I can take. I will come back to

4:44:004:44:04

the honourable lady in a second if

she allows me to go on. The state

4:44:044:44:08

tension was initially addressed in

1995 when it was legislated in the

4:44:084:44:17

1995 act this rose out of life

expectancy changes and increase in

4:44:174:44:21

the number of pensioners in the

years to come. The Labour government

4:44:214:44:25

as I have indicated earlier

introduced the 2007 pensions act was

4:44:254:44:29

again increased state pension age. I

should point of the Labour Party has

4:44:294:44:35

now seek to argue that the Blair and

Brown reforms are wrong. The

4:44:354:44:38

Government listen to concerns voiced

in the passage of the 2011 Mac is

4:44:384:44:45

indicated down her budget and the

proposed two-year acceleration was

4:44:454:44:48

reduced to 18 months benefiting over

a quarter of a million women in the

4:44:484:44:53

process

4:44:534:44:59

Going as far as some campaigners

have argued, indeed the gentleman

4:44:594:45:13

described as full compensation, wood

) -- represent a cost of over £70

4:45:134:45:16

million to the public purse. The

requirements those changes would

4:45:164:45:18

make taken into account the

difference between men and women,

4:45:184:45:20

would require new legislation

meaning there would have to be

4:45:204:45:24

inequality potentially being created

between men and women.

Perhaps he

4:45:244:45:32

could offer some assistance, he

talks about life expectancy

4:45:324:45:35

increasing. I don't want to argue

the toss, what I'm curious about is

4:45:354:45:41

just because people are living

longer, I don't understand why this

4:45:414:45:46

particular generation of women

should pay the price when they are

4:45:464:45:50

expected to receive their pensions

at 60. The arguments about life

4:45:504:45:55

expectancy may be an argument about

reforming pensions in the future but

4:45:554:46:00

these women feel cheated they

haven't got their pension at 60.

I'm

4:46:004:46:07

conscious for the desire for me to

end speedily, I will write to the

4:46:074:46:11

honourable lady with a detailed

reply to her points just raised. I

4:46:114:46:15

would make the point, I have barely

had a chance to address the argument

4:46:154:46:21

made by my friend from Scotland,

whether it is the point raised

4:46:214:46:25

eloquently by my honourable friend

from Murray,... Indicated they have

4:46:254:46:35

the power under the Scotland act and

I make the point strongly there is

4:46:354:46:45

no question there is the power

because this is not dealing with

4:46:454:46:48

pensioners as such because the

provisions in relation to this is we

4:46:484:46:51

are dealing with people of working

age according to the law so I rely

4:46:514:46:56

strongly on the words frankly not of

this Government, of the Scottish

4:46:564:47:00

Government as set out in the 22nd

letter. The issue of notification

4:47:004:47:05

was raised and I can answer the

points very briefly, that there was

4:47:054:47:11

clearly massive parliamentary debate

on repeated occasions in 1995 and

4:47:114:47:16

thereafter, multiple articles in the

press and media, distribution of

4:47:164:47:20

huge numbers of media, a campaign in

2004 to educate people about their

4:47:204:47:26

state pensions, adverts in a variety

of ways, then of course

4:47:264:47:30

correspondence in two different ways

both prior to 2010 and after 2011,

4:47:304:47:35

and state pension forecasts were

sent to 19 million people over the

4:47:354:47:41

last 17 years. To conclude, modern

deck beauty speaker -- Madam Deputy

4:47:414:47:49

Speaker, I would make a couple of

points - we recognise some people

4:47:494:47:57

cannot work. The Government is

committed to supporting the

4:47:574:48:01

vulnerable and spends around £50

billion per year each on benefits to

4:48:014:48:05

support disabled people and those

with health conditions and carers,

4:48:054:48:10

as my honourable friend for

Eastleigh raised. This equates to 6%

4:48:104:48:14

of all government spending and with

increased financial pressures, we

4:48:144:48:19

cannot change a policy that was

implemented over 20 years ago and

4:48:194:48:22

supported by all three political

parties. In relation to life

4:48:224:48:28

expectancy, the honourable gentleman

for Easington and I are good example

4:48:284:48:31

of that, we have both

4:48:314:48:43

suffered from cancer, I'm delighted

to see he has made the recovery from

4:48:434:48:46

lymphatic cancer, I have made a

recovery from a brain tumour. Those

4:48:464:48:49

illnesses would have killed us

boasts 40 years ago and there's no

4:48:494:48:51

doubt life expectancy changes. With

increased financial pressures it

4:48:514:48:54

would be unaffordable and not right

in the light of the changes we have

4:48:544:48:58

had to place an unfair financial

burden on future generations.

I

4:48:584:49:05

would like to thank all the members

who have participated, over 30

4:49:054:49:11

members, directly on contributions

and numerous interventions. I do

4:49:114:49:16

hope that the Minister has taken

note of what's been said. I am an

4:49:164:49:22

eternal optimist, perhaps formed by

experiences. I think all sides will

4:49:224:49:27

build momentum and bring this

campaign to a successful conclusion.

4:49:274:49:31

I want to point out to the Minister

with all due respect that if the

4:49:314:49:36

maladministration cases are found

against the Government, we could be

4:49:364:49:39

looking at a huge settlements so it

may well be in the Government's

4:49:394:49:44

interests to find a solution to seek

a Parliamentary solution. These

4:49:444:49:53

women deserve justice and we're here

to try to deliver that today so I

4:49:534:49:56

hope the parliament will speak with

one voice and support the motion on

4:49:564:50:01

the audit paper. Thank you.

The

question is as on the order paper.

4:50:014:50:06

As many are of that opinion say

aye... No...? The ayes have it. We

4:50:064:50:21

now come onto Sir Mike Penning.

4:50:214:50:27

I think we all, as constituency MPs,

hoped perhaps that this debate was

4:50:304:50:39

unnecessary. We all hoped that the

inquiry, and I used the word in

4:50:394:50:45

brackets, inquiry, that the

Government in good faith constituted

4:50:454:50:50

would have given confidence to the

families and loved ones of

4:50:504:50:57

thousands. Shall I pause while the

lady stops laughing. Thank you. I

4:50:574:51:04

think thousands of families who in

good faith, many of them went to see

4:51:044:51:08

their GP to see whether they

thought, because they thought they

4:51:084:51:13

might be pregnant. Probably one of

the most important times in any

4:51:134:51:21

woman's life, and certainly as a

father of two gorgeous girls the

4:51:214:51:24

most important time in my life when

my wife told me she was expecting

4:51:244:51:28

our children. This was something so

important to them, they very often

4:51:284:51:36

went to their GP, a natural thing to

do, so an NHS patient going to an

4:51:364:51:43

NHS surgery to see an NHS doctor for

advice about whether they were

4:51:434:51:48

pregnant. I look at the dates as to

when these mothers to be possibly

4:51:484:51:53

went to see their GP. Between 1953,

Madam Deputy Speaker, and 1975.

4:51:534:52:02

Quite a span of time. Actually my

mother could have gone to the GP

4:52:024:52:06

because I was born in 1957. It could

have easily been in many ways me

4:52:064:52:13

that was a victim of this, God

forbid, and my mother a victim as

4:52:134:52:20

well. That's one of the reasons I am

so passionate about getting to the

4:52:204:52:24

bottom of this, I think, disaster

that came to these ladies who went

4:52:244:52:32

to the GPs. Not only do they go to

GP, NHS GP, NHS surgery, as an NHS

4:52:324:52:40

patient... Very often that GP would

open the draw and give two tablets

4:52:404:52:48

sometimes with no prescription, no

advice, no concern about the

4:52:484:52:54

consequences or side-effects of that

drug, and they handed those tablets

4:52:544:52:58

over to the lady, many of them took

them directly in the surgery, and

4:52:584:53:04

they simply said to them if your

period starts tomorrow you are not

4:53:044:53:08

pregnant. If your period doesn't

start you are. And in good faith,

4:53:084:53:17

they followed that advice. Even

though the Department of Health and

4:53:174:53:24

drug companies knew there was issues

to do with this drug. I'm going to

4:53:244:53:29

use a tiny bit of privilege because

every look around to do with this

4:53:294:53:36

debate, including in the House of

Commons papers, hormone pregnancy

4:53:364:53:39

tests, the report into the

commission on human medicines, the

4:53:394:53:58

drug was primodos. Other companies

in the world knew about issues and

4:53:594:54:06

I'm not going to go into all of the

evidence given in the so-called

4:54:064:54:11

review, but lets touch on some of

the bits asked for by the Minister

4:54:114:54:19

when this group was set up. The

first point, the Government should

4:54:194:54:24

set up an expert working panel

inquiry. No such inquiry took place.

4:54:244:54:30

At the third meeting, the barrister

I understand to be inquiry advised

4:54:304:54:34

to inquiry to change the word

inquiry into review. Under what

4:54:344:54:40

authority? When a minister has set

up an inquiry, is it not an inquiry?

4:54:404:54:47

Perhaps they didn't want one, who

cares? They should have gone back to

4:54:474:54:52

the victims and more importantly the

Minister and said my advice is this

4:54:524:54:55

and the Minister could have made

that decision. People might just

4:54:554:55:00

think it is semantics, it's not,

it's vitally important if you are

4:55:004:55:04

getting to the truth as to what that

group could do. Even when the report

4:55:044:55:10

- not the original report, Madam

Deputy Speaker - the original report

4:55:104:55:14

was removed, changed and I know

others will come onto that. When it

4:55:144:55:21

came out yet again it didn't say

review because it's not a review.

4:55:214:55:25

There should be full disclosure and

a review of all the evidence. That

4:55:254:55:33

review says they did that. They

didn't. The Royal College of GPs

4:55:334:55:37

just one example, the Royal College

of GPs had informed the Department

4:55:374:55:42

and the drug company that they had

concerns way back in the 1960s. That

4:55:424:55:49

evidence was never sought. If you

read the report, no evidence at all

4:55:494:55:55

was given to this inquiry, which is

what it should have been, review,

4:55:554:55:59

from the Royal College of GPs. I

will give way but I'm only going to

4:55:594:56:03

give way a couple of times because

I'm conscious of time.

Is my

4:56:034:56:10

honourable friend where the BMJ

reported that most of the scientific

4:56:104:56:14

evidence considered by the working

group was from the 1960s, 70s and

4:56:144:56:18

early 80s and one expert in the

field told the BMJ they were not

4:56:184:56:25

actually that many scientific

studies available? And would he

4:56:254:56:28

agree the Government should fund new

research with the aim of enabling a

4:56:284:56:32

definitive conclusion to be reached

on the matter?

Yes, and I will come

4:56:324:56:37

onto that point in the summing up.

It is vitally important we have

4:56:374:56:42

proper evidence, not some of the

historic evidence used by the

4:56:424:56:45

report, even though they rejected

some more modern evidence because it

4:56:454:56:50

hadn't yet been peer reviewed. The

whole point of having all of the

4:56:504:56:53

evidence in front of them is one of

the reasons the motion... Bear with

4:56:534:56:56

me, the motion today which I hope

will be passed unanimously actually

4:56:564:57:02

says it should be a judge-led

inquiry. I will give way and then

4:57:024:57:06

I'm going to make some progress.

I

must acknowledge my constituents

4:57:064:57:14

Charlotte and her family on behalf

of Stephen, her brother, who's been

4:57:144:57:19

affected so much by this drug. One

of the biggest issues is the handing

4:57:194:57:24

out with absolutely no talking

through about any risks and once

4:57:244:57:29

again I heard today about Jackie who

lost her baby Louisa 19 years later

4:57:294:57:34

in 1977 when that product had been

on the market for two years with

4:57:344:57:42

warnings and GPs not pointing this

out so there's a lot of evidence

4:57:424:57:45

here and why is it not in that

report, I ask my honourable friend.

4:57:454:57:50

I completely agree and one of the

things which has surprised me is

4:57:504:57:54

that even though on average every

single constituency MP in this House

4:57:544:57:58

will have a victim of primodos in

their constituency, so many Britons

4:57:584:58:05

say that it was their fault, that

they are on their own. The fantastic

4:58:054:58:10

report done by Sky where people came

forward and said I was affected by

4:58:104:58:23

this but I thought I was the only

one. The inquiry should be conducted

4:58:234:58:28

fairly and independently, they will

give people a few seconds to think

4:58:284:58:33

about that before I take my final

intervention - independently.

I'm

4:58:334:58:42

grateful to the honourable

gentleman, who is making a very

4:58:424:58:45

powerful case. Given that the

inquiry/ review has now been very

4:58:454:58:51

much discredited and certainly

rejected by all of those who have

4:58:514:58:56

suffered as a result of this, would

he agree with me that - I'm sure he

4:58:564:59:02

will - the terms of his motion which

calls for a statutory inquiry under

4:59:024:59:06

the inquiry is act 2005 to review

the evidence of a possible

4:59:064:59:11

association between hormone

pregnancy tests and pregnancies, and

4:59:114:59:15

to consider the regulatory failures

of the committee of safety of

4:59:154:59:20

medicines is the way forward?

I do,

and I take praise actually, the

4:59:204:59:26

clerk has helped me draft it in a

way because I was so angry after

4:59:264:59:31

reading this report, to get it into

some kind of Parliamentary language.

4:59:314:59:36

It has to be independent and

judge-led and it has to be able to

4:59:364:59:40

Sabena and summons people before it

on oath so that we can get to the

4:59:404:59:44

truth.

4:59:444:59:50

That was in place at the time. It is

I'm afraid the Department of Health

4:59:504:59:54

cannot hide behind this report. To

me that is so vitally important. The

4:59:544:59:58

third point again fair and

independent. One of the ways that it

4:59:585:00:03

could be done independently is to

have an expert witness who wasn't

5:00:035:00:07

part of the campaign but actually

everybody massively respected. For

5:00:075:00:15

those involved in the thalidomide

campaign over the years when they

5:00:155:00:18

heard Nick brick was going to put

forward I thought it was going to be

5:00:185:00:22

a positive thing. Interestingly

enough Nick was there as expert

5:00:225:00:28

witness. Assayed part of the

conclusions in any shape or form. He

5:00:285:00:32

was actually has to leave the room.

When in good faith the Minister and

5:00:325:00:40

Prime Minister they said that Nick

Dobrik had fully endorse and he was

5:00:405:00:50

gob smacked when he heard that he

was mentioned as endorsing their

5:00:505:00:57

report. He did interview with sky

today that he categorically does not

5:00:575:01:01

endorse the conclusions of this

report and it was fundamentally

5:01:015:01:04

wrong for anybody to advise the

Prime Minister or the anyone that he

5:01:045:01:08

did. He does not win the Prime

Minister and I don't. I don't

5:01:085:01:14

Minister the side of the bench you

take advice from your officials

5:01:145:01:18

you're told the situation and in

good faith you take the... Nick

5:01:185:01:25

cannot defend himself in this

chamber but on behalf of him I would

5:01:255:01:29

like whoever gave that advice to the

Ministers to formally apologise to

5:01:295:01:35

Nick Dobrik because he is a

fantastic campaign are not only for

5:01:355:01:41

all of buffer all injustices in the

pharmaceutical. The third point

5:01:415:01:47

conducted independently. The victims

not feel that at all. The victims

5:01:475:01:52

should have trust and confidence is

part and parcel of what is there.

5:01:525:01:56

That is the fourth point. I probably

the most important thing I think

5:01:565:02:00

amongst many other things, the

inquiry should find a possible

5:02:005:02:05

association. A possible association

not causal. When I questioned the

5:02:055:02:14

experts on the panel why they

changed causal face it is a

5:02:145:02:25

difficult to prove. They were

supposed to follow their remit not

5:02:255:02:31

science. This is a do as they told.

But they thought they could not do

5:02:315:02:35

because of the evidence of Pergamum,

fine. Come back to Minister,

5:02:355:02:38

comebacks of the victims and

explained that. A set of that they

5:02:385:02:43

had an absolute farcical situation

where they were looking for

5:02:435:02:45

something which they knew full well,

and it is clearly their documents,

5:02:455:02:50

but it could not come to the

conclusion there was a causal. This

5:02:505:02:54

could not come to the conclusion

that there wasn't either because the

5:02:545:02:58

evidence was not there for either

conclusion. So to me, and as I sat

5:02:585:03:03

on the floor of the House, there as

an in justice taking place here that

5:03:035:03:13

natural justice, why we were sent

here to defend our constituents on

5:03:135:03:16

the system has come down against him

and caused such horrific, horrible

5:03:165:03:20

things to them we need to actually

address it. I will give way once

5:03:205:03:24

more.

I'm exceptionally great no --

exceptionally grateful. To

5:03:245:03:33

constituents contacted me saying

they believe they lost their

5:03:335:03:35

children due to the struck. One said

they lost several children. This is

5:03:355:03:44

a fundamental issue of trust.

Trusting the GP, NHS, inquiry. The

5:03:445:03:52

two constituents who been in touch

with me saying over and over again

5:03:525:03:55

we no longer have any faith in the

system. They believe it is a

5:03:555:03:58

whitewash which is why agree with

him that there should be a full

5:03:585:04:02

inquiry.

I think honourable

gentleman for his support. That

5:04:025:04:07

support for the victims. There is

only one constituency in -- there is

5:04:075:04:14

no constituency in this country does

not have someone who lost their

5:04:145:04:21

child or was stillborn. Or lives

were transformed for those of

5:04:215:04:23

survive. And many, who we don't have

the figures, who were don't have the

5:04:235:04:27

figures, where five so take... There

are reports starting to come through

5:04:275:04:32

which the inquiry was not allowed to

look at, I fully endorse the fact we

5:04:325:04:36

need to look at the fact we need the

money up there to have some modern

5:04:365:04:41

reports because the methodology used

back then would never allow today

5:04:415:04:44

but we also need to see the missing

reports. We need to find the stuff

5:04:445:04:49

has gone missing in Germany. And

whether the drug company knew there

5:04:495:04:53

were here. We need to know why the

drug companies settled in America

5:04:535:04:58

using a different name for the

product, why they settled in

5:04:585:05:02

America. What evidence put before

the legal system in America where

5:05:025:05:07

they settled as fast as they could

and then gagged everything kept it

5:05:075:05:12

quiet. We have a duty in this House,

to call into question when things go

5:05:125:05:17

wrong. This started going wrong

many, before I was born. And I know

5:05:175:05:24

the Ministers and I have been a

Minister, have to say I need to

5:05:245:05:29

support my... But one of the roles

of a Minister is to question the

5:05:295:05:33

advice that they got. I know that is

what the Prime Minister will do now

5:05:335:05:37

and I hope that this House will

support the Vic Ohm's said that they

5:05:375:05:42

can have some confidence in the

system and in the NHS once again.

5:05:425:05:47

Can I suggest they will want to get

him and we have limited time. Six

5:05:475:05:50

men speeches full stop --.

Six years

ago I met my constituent who shared

5:05:505:06:00

with me her struggle with her health

over her lifetime. Her mother had

5:06:005:06:04

been prescribed Primodos. Is that

despite today carried out my

5:06:045:06:10

research. Searching through

thousands of pages of documents. One

5:06:105:06:16

document from 1969 found that when

women used this homone pregnancy

5:06:165:06:22

test there was a higher incidence of

malformed babies, miscarriages,

5:06:225:06:26

stillbirth and infant death. He

found the finding are so alarming he

5:06:265:06:31

wrote the manufacturers asking them

to withdraw Primodos. It would be

5:06:315:06:38

another eight years before was taken

away from the market unlike Norway

5:06:385:06:42

and Sweden to active racist. In the

last six years I have exchanged

5:06:425:06:47

countless letters with... Work with

Sky News who have been exposing

5:06:475:06:57

this. And the victims Association. I

have raised this matter on the floor

5:06:575:07:03

many times. And with the Prime

Minister several weeks ago. And her

5:07:035:07:08

predecessor to discuss successful.

But in 2014, after a debate here in

5:07:085:07:12

this chamber, women were informed --

we were formed by a Minister that an

5:07:125:07:18

inquiry would be carried out how we

were very excited about that. We

5:07:185:07:23

were promised that inquiry would be

fair and transparent. He would have

5:07:235:07:26

the trust and confidence of all

victims and it would look at all of

5:07:265:07:29

the evidence. And said he found that

some of the experts on the panel had

5:07:295:07:33

in fact conflict of interests and

close ties with the manufacturing

5:07:335:07:37

company which is now called Bayer.

Those invited to give evidence root

5:07:375:07:46

giving after a short period of time

to tell what happened to them and

5:07:465:07:49

treated appallingly. One was pointed

out that the duct she cannot raise

5:07:495:07:57

any of the concerns that she had

with any of us with how the inquiry

5:07:575:08:00

was going. Yes of course.

I thank

the honourable Lady for giving way

5:08:005:08:06

and mentioning that the interest are

Prime Minister has shown meeting

5:08:065:08:12

that the she is indeed but what they

point out like to reiterate on

5:08:125:08:18

behalf of my constituents and many

other MPs is the treatment of the

5:08:185:08:22

campaigners. Ring this process, on

acceptable, timescales which are

5:08:225:08:29

some people working for very ill

children. So I absolutely think the

5:08:295:08:34

treatment of the campaigners at the

very least needs an apology.

Thank

5:08:345:08:39

you. I entirely agree with the

honourable Lady on this matter. Now

5:08:395:08:42

the inquiry was to look at the

possible association and not

5:08:425:08:47

causally. On that is very important

for. Because it is afraid different

5:08:475:08:53

burden of proof looking for a causal

link. No one knows who gave the

5:08:535:09:01

authorisation to change it. There

are thousands of documents from

5:09:015:09:10

archives show that deformities are

links to the struck. There also were

5:09:105:09:16

Department of medicine action

looking at these documents and not

5:09:165:09:19

to do anything with it. I was that

that was back when the report came

5:09:195:09:22

out the initial draft said that it

was not possible to reach a

5:09:225:09:26

definitive conclusion am however,

the final document was changed at

5:09:265:09:31

said they could reach that

conclusion. And when the chair of

5:09:315:09:35

the inquiry was asked about this I

myself and others as to why this

5:09:355:09:43

changed, she said that the

Commissioner of medicine looked at

5:09:435:09:48

the document, looking very

thoroughly and they told us that we

5:09:485:09:50

should strengthen the wording and

put... It is acceptable for that

5:09:505:09:56

commission to have asked the panel

to do that and change their

5:09:565:09:59

conclusion. As is are to be

mentioned when I asked the Prime

5:09:595:10:03

Minister this question recently one

of the reason that I Minister said

5:10:035:10:08

there was confidence and support was

that Nick Dobrik said he endorse

5:10:085:10:15

this report. But he says he's very

angry when he is tied to this

5:10:155:10:20

report. He I would ask the Minister

is he aware of that the working

5:10:205:10:25

group refused to look at the most up

to date study of Primodos conducted

5:10:255:10:30

this year. They said it had not been

peer-reviewed yet they looked at 44

5:10:305:10:37

other nonparent you do studies and

some of the matter should produced

5:10:375:10:39

at the manufacturers themselves. The

doctor has found that it did

5:10:395:10:46

deformed fish embryos and is given

high doses actually killed them as

5:10:465:10:49

well. There also was a study box to

them that his findings were just

5:10:495:11:01

informed the Royal College of

General tagged shooters about this

5:11:015:11:04

and that study has also been ignored

and in fact there is no record of it

5:11:045:11:08

at all. And the only reason that we

know it exists is because of a

5:11:085:11:11

letter which was found which showed

that he had discussed this matter,

5:11:115:11:17

had told all the parties concerned

as to what was going on, and again

5:11:175:11:21

nothing had happened. The man in

charge of the communication of

5:11:215:11:25

safety in medicine, also conducted a

study and in fact found that there

5:11:255:11:32

were adverse reactions and what did

he do? Instead of dealing with this

5:11:325:11:35

issue he actually contacted the

manufacturers and told them quote

5:11:355:11:41

take measures to avoid medical,

legal challenges and then he eat

5:11:415:11:47

later shows that he... That all the

documents were later point to be

5:11:475:11:55

destroyed that he saw. There was a

doctor who also carried out that

5:11:555:12:00

there were significant, twofold

increases and people having

5:12:005:12:08

malformed children who use the

struck. In 1977 newest old which is

5:12:085:12:15

stopping given. That could industry

of medicine then said the

5:12:155:12:21

association is confirmed between

Primodos and deformities, confirmed,

5:12:215:12:25

unequivocal. One that was in 1977.

So why is it the expert working

5:12:255:12:32

group seem to have disregarded all

of these studies, have not bothered

5:12:325:12:35

to take any interest in what was

happening, have failed to look at

5:12:355:12:40

the regulatory failures? Further

scientific research should be

5:12:405:12:45

carried out for one reason, apart

from establishing an association,

5:12:455:12:49

but also because interestingly

enough the AWG report actually says

5:12:495:12:55

that the actual component part of

Primodos are safe to be used

5:12:555:13:02

currently. That is very worrying

because it is being used in a

5:13:025:13:05

contraceptive pills. I think

independent research needs to be

5:13:055:13:11

carried out on this because we might

find that actually even though these

5:13:115:13:16

components are being used in May be

harmful to women. Adweek could

5:13:165:13:20

prevent further problems from

occurring. I'm asking for an

5:13:205:13:23

independent inquiry as is bent

alluded to. The most of the families

5:13:235:13:28

first.

Thank you very much. I thank

my right arm will front for securing

5:13:285:13:37

this extremely important debate this

afternoon. Throw the UK there have

5:13:375:13:43

been many constituents who have been

devastated by the recently published

5:13:435:13:51

outcome of the review, the

commission of health medicine

5:13:515:13:53

working group. It included the

scientific evidence did not ask --

5:13:535:14:01

support a causal association between

promote Agassiz tests and that the

5:14:015:14:07

dot from 1953 to the early 1970s.

Between the use of hormone pregnancy

5:14:075:14:13

tests such as Primodos and the

connection of the map and

5:14:135:14:19

miscarriages or perform the fax. Our

birth defects ranging from brain

5:14:195:14:24

damage, heart abnormalities and

transpose internal organs. Of

5:14:245:14:31

particular concern to my

constituents as the apparent

5:14:315:14:34

nonavailability of a general

practitioner records for that

5:14:345:14:37

relevant period of time when she was

prescribed Primodos. Or better put

5:14:375:14:42

simply even murderous as part for

pregnancy test.

5:14:425:14:56

Yes, certainly.

My constituent finds

herself in precisely the situation

5:14:565:15:05

he describes. At the time in 1969

when she gave birth to her son, she

5:15:055:15:10

attended a medical practice in

Crawley but many of the GP notes

5:15:105:15:15

were handwritten, they appear to

have been lost. Her previous

5:15:155:15:19

practice in Gloucestershire tried to

get those records and found she

5:15:195:15:25

ceased to exist for 12 years, it is

very worrying is it not.

It

5:15:255:15:33

corroborates the concerns of my

constituents. As I understand it,

5:15:335:15:40

such records normally required to be

retained for the duration of that

5:15:405:15:43

patient's lifetime. It will be

interesting to recover the notes to

5:15:435:15:55

see if there is a pattern. Only

months after being prescribed with

5:15:555:16:02

Primodos in January of 1975, a

warning was added to the packaging

5:16:025:16:06

that the drug was not to be given to

pregnant women, should not be given

5:16:065:16:10

to pregnant women to repeat it. It

was conceived by my constituent this

5:16:105:16:16

was a response to the situation that

risk had been identified. My

5:16:165:16:22

constituent's child was born in

August of 1975 with serious birth

5:16:225:16:28

defects requiring major surgery. And

still today that child in adult

5:16:285:16:33

horde has to contend with associated

medical complications. However,

5:16:335:16:37

credit to both mother and child,

despite the trauma and hardship they

5:16:375:16:43

have endured, they contribute

positively to society and indeed

5:16:435:16:46

champion the care of others. One has

to ask if Primodos is not meant to

5:16:465:16:52

the birth deformities of children

whose mothers took the drug, what is

5:16:525:16:59

the common denominator for the

tragic outcome of these pregnancies?

5:16:595:17:04

It has been mooted such women should

undertake genetic test. In other

5:17:045:17:11

words is the suggestion that this

could be considered

5:17:115:17:26

coincidental. My constituent does

not consider she has received

5:17:295:17:33

justice for herself and more

importantly in her eyes justice for

5:17:335:17:37

her child. In conclusion, my

constituent feels let down at the

5:17:375:17:42

outcome and the process followed by

the expert working groups because

5:17:425:17:46

she had high hopes for the outcome,

as it brings nowhere nearer the

5:17:465:17:50

truth nor nearer to justice, for

those who may have fallen foul of

5:17:505:17:55

drugs that may not have been fit for

purpose at the time of prescribing

5:17:555:18:01

or simply given to the patients. For

the families involved, I would

5:18:015:18:06

welcome a broad-based and

independent inquiry. To review the

5:18:065:18:10

evidence of which there is much

evidence, in a long journey and a

5:18:105:18:18

big jigsaw with many pieces of the

jigsaw missing. These pieces of the

5:18:185:18:23

jigsaw should be secured for that

independent inquiry to find the

5:18:235:18:28

truth. It may be a regulatory

failure, we need to find out. It's

5:18:285:18:33

been a devastating outcome for

people subjected to hormone

5:18:335:18:38

pregnancy testing from 1953 to 1975.

The families deserve truth and

5:18:385:18:46

justice and I think it is the role

of parliamentarians to pursue

5:18:465:18:49

relentlessly the truth of Primodos

and other such drugs.

I raise this

5:18:495:18:59

important issue on behalf of my

constituents and other and affected

5:18:595:19:06

constituents but also because this

is about a national scandal, about

5:19:065:19:10

the tragedy of babies either

stillborn or born with severe feet a

5:19:105:19:16

lot their mothers were given the

hormone Primodos as a pregnancy test

5:19:165:19:23

between 1953 and 1975. Primodos was

in many cases handed out in the GP

5:19:235:19:27

surgery. There has been a double

failure, inadequate regulation and

5:19:275:19:33

the failure of successive

governments to investigate what

5:19:335:19:37

happened in an open, comprehensive

and acceptable weights. Honourable

5:19:375:19:40

members have highlighted the flaws

in the findings of the expert

5:19:405:19:44

working group set up by the

commission on human medicine that

5:19:445:19:49

reported in November this year.

Those concerns include the

5:19:495:19:52

unexplained change in the groups

terms of reference from assessing

5:19:525:19:57

the possible association between

Primodos and foetal abnormalities to

5:19:575:20:02

establish that much harder to prove

causal link. It includes the

5:20:025:20:08

questions raised by its selective

use of research and the limited

5:20:085:20:11

evidence it considered. And the

categorical denial of the

5:20:115:20:17

Government's claim that as a trustee

of the thalidomide trust have

5:20:175:20:26

approved the report damages

confidence in the whole process. The

5:20:265:20:31

significant changes between the

inquiry's draft report and its final

5:20:315:20:35

conclusion undermines trust in its

findings. Indeed the draft

5:20:355:20:39

conclusions stated that due to

scarce evidence, it was not possible

5:20:395:20:44

to reach a definitive conclusion. In

contrast, the final published

5:20:445:20:50

conclusion was that the evidence did

not support a causal association

5:20:505:20:55

between the use of Primodos and

birth defects or miscarriages. In

5:20:555:21:01

short there is no confidence in the

working group's findings. What is

5:21:015:21:07

required now? First, admission that

the current situation is

5:21:075:21:11

unacceptable and that the working

group's report is inadequate, and

5:21:115:21:16

above all there must now be a public

inquiry judge-led to consider all of

5:21:165:21:21

the available evidence. This was

first called for by the late

5:21:215:21:27

lamented Jack Ashley MP as far back

as the 28th of May 19 78. And this

5:21:275:21:36

inquiry must secure the confidence

of the people affected, involving

5:21:365:21:41

them from the very beginning in

setting up its terms of reference,

5:21:415:21:48

and they must be involved

continually as the inquiry

5:21:485:21:52

progresses. That is the only way

that a report will be produced that

5:21:525:21:56

has the confidence of the people

most affected. The wide range of

5:21:565:22:01

witnesses should be called under

oath. All research, whether

5:22:015:22:06

conducted here in the UK, in Europe

or indeed internationally, should be

5:22:065:22:12

considered. More research may be

required but this should not unduly

5:22:125:22:17

delay the findings and conclusion of

the inquiry. And regulatory failure

5:22:175:22:23

should be part of the investigation.

All research must be considered and

5:22:235:22:29

evidence must be collected and

assessed from a wide range of

5:22:295:22:34

sources. There must be no cover ups.

This is the only way forward. The

5:22:345:22:42

women and families affected by

Primodos are still suffering from

5:22:425:22:44

their loss. They are still grieving.

They will not give up. They and all

5:22:445:22:52

of us deserve no less than the

truth.

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker,

5:22:525:23:01

and I congratulate my right

honourable friend in securing this

5:23:015:23:06

debate. This was one of the very

first issues that was brought to me

5:23:065:23:11

by a constituent following my

election as the Member for North

5:23:115:23:15

Devon two and a half years ago now

and I really want to raise her case

5:23:155:23:19

against because my point is that the

people who have been affected by

5:23:195:23:25

this, their families, their

children, mothers and babies, they

5:23:255:23:28

should be at the very centre of our

thinking and I think it's really

5:23:285:23:33

important therefore to use if I may

one example. I was contacted by my

5:23:335:23:39

constituent Diane sermon from

Barnstaple. She gave birth to

5:23:395:23:42

daughter Helen on the 29th of

November 1974. She wrote to me to

5:23:425:23:50

say she was given the drug Primodos

on the 10th of April that year. She

5:23:505:23:56

remembers the date all too clearly,

while she was pregnant. She was

5:23:565:23:59

given the hormone pregnancy test,

and Helen was eventually born in the

5:23:595:24:07

Royal Gwent Hospital in Newport.

However the baby was born with a

5:24:075:24:11

number of conditions. Hydrocephalus

with a very rare disease, brain

5:24:115:24:18

haemorrhage at 12 weeks old, Helen

suffered. Her seizures then started.

5:24:185:24:23

She was treated at the Heath

Hospital in Cardiff and at a later

5:24:235:24:28

date at great Ormond Street

Hospital. Diane has a letter from a

5:24:285:24:31

consultant neurologist at the time

that states in his opinion it was

5:24:315:24:35

the drug Primodos which caused the

difficulties to her baby. Diane told

5:24:355:24:40

me that Helen has a quality of life,

she can walk albeit short distances,

5:24:405:24:45

she needs a wheelchair for longer

distances or when she goes shopping

5:24:455:24:50

or goes out with friends. She is

able to feed herself and help with

5:24:505:25:00

her daily needs is required but she

will always need 24-hour care

5:25:005:25:02

because of her seizures. The point I

seek to make is that's just one

5:25:025:25:07

example of the extraordinary impact

that this has had on one family, on

5:25:075:25:11

one individual on one mother. But

this can be multiplied so many times

5:25:115:25:16

and that is why it is absolutely

right that my right honourable

5:25:165:25:20

friend and others on all sides of

this House, and this isn't a party

5:25:205:25:24

political issue, others are all side

of this House seek to ensure this is

5:25:245:25:28

kept in the spotlight and it's quite

right that it is. Mrs sermon is one

5:25:285:25:34

of many people, there are many

others. I do want to say though

5:25:345:25:38

there have been over the years many

attempts by governments of all

5:25:385:25:43

colours to get to the bottom of this

and I want to say I know the

5:25:435:25:46

Minister is sincere in his view in

trying to do that and find a way

5:25:465:25:50

forward that will help us get to the

bottom of what has happened. There

5:25:505:25:55

have also been a range of studies,

the difficulties in all of those

5:25:555:26:01

studies that we have had over the

years, there's so much

5:26:015:26:06

contradiction. There is no agreement

yet. The honourable lady for Bolton

5:26:065:26:11

South East and a good speech made

absolutely rightly, the point that

5:26:115:26:17

in the 1970s there was a report that

showed apparently clearly evidence

5:26:175:26:22

of a causal link. Then you look

forward and we had in 2016 the

5:26:225:26:28

report from the commission on human

medicines which said there was no

5:26:285:26:31

such evidence. And now we've had

this report from the expert working

5:26:315:26:37

group which has now come up with a

similar - I will give way - come up

5:26:375:26:43

with a similar finding. My problem

is we have so many contradictions,

5:26:435:26:48

so many differences of opinion, how

do we get to the bottom of it?

You

5:26:485:26:57

referred to the report by the

commission on human medicines. That

5:26:575:27:01

was as a result of a letter I wrote

to the RH -- NHRA who looked up

5:27:015:27:12

documents in existence and did a

review and came up with an opinion,

5:27:125:27:16

it wasn't actually a study, I just

wanted to clarify that.

Thank you

5:27:165:27:23

for that clarification. A lot of the

studies have been into the

5:27:235:27:26

historical evidence and historical

paperwork. She is right to make that

5:27:265:27:32

point but when you look at what was

said in the 1970s and 2016, 2017,

5:27:325:27:38

there are still differences of

opinion and this is the difficulty

5:27:385:27:42

with what we have to deal with. I've

asked the House of Commons library

5:27:425:27:47

for a lot of background information

I was going to try to get into but I

5:27:475:27:52

cannot do too much. What I would say

though is having read the latest

5:27:525:27:56

report, the report of the expert

working group, there is clearly a

5:27:565:28:01

concern which has been highlighted

clearly by my right honourable

5:28:015:28:05

friend and others of this

contradiction in what it was asked

5:28:055:28:08

to do and what it then actually

found out. This contradiction

5:28:085:28:13

between whether you have a causal

link or an association and I do

5:28:135:28:17

think that is something we need to

explore. Whether the terms of

5:28:175:28:21

reference of this expert working

group were followed in the way it is

5:28:215:28:26

carried out its investigation, and

on that I absolutely agree we need

5:28:265:28:31

to look further into what exactly

has been done here.

5:28:315:28:38

Now I understand there is further

evidence due to be published in the

5:28:385:28:42

new year, that will be important,

yes.

It is not coming from the

5:28:425:28:47

working group, it is coming from the

professor that they rejected,

5:28:475:28:52

because it had not been peer

reviewed but will be the next few

5:28:525:28:55

days of.

Thank you for that

complication, but what does there is

5:28:555:28:58

more to come and more information

for the -- it is important to keep

5:28:585:29:04

looking for this information, it is

important that we gather everything

5:29:045:29:07

we have -- we can to look at how we

can help people who have been

5:29:075:29:11

affected by this. There are many

other honourable right honourable

5:29:115:29:17

members who will want to speak so I

shall continue for too long, simply

5:29:175:29:20

to say a final thought, this

government in previous of

5:29:205:29:25

ministrations, have consistently

tried to look for answers to this.

5:29:255:29:29

And I know that my right honourable

friend, the Minister is absolutely

5:29:295:29:34

sincere in seeking to do this, and

seeking to take this forward. And

5:29:345:29:37

what I would like to do is to

support him and to support the

5:29:375:29:40

Government most evolved to support

those people who have been affected

5:29:405:29:45

by this in trying to work together

to find a way forward and find the

5:29:455:29:51

answer that they seek. Let this get

together, everyone, experts

5:29:515:29:57

Department of Health and crucially

the families affected on all sides,

5:29:575:30:01

of this. And the MPs, all of us from

all sides of the chamber who

5:30:015:30:05

represent them to try and to get the

answers. And I want to and by

5:30:055:30:11

referring back to my constituent

Diane, because as I say at the

5:30:115:30:14

centre of this, it must be those

affected and a further letter to me,

5:30:145:30:18

she says this. In my heart, I feel

positive it was the drug primodos

5:30:185:30:23

was caused headed's injuries. After

I took the tablets I was in and out

5:30:235:30:28

of hospital, I carried lots of food

which I have been told is a sign of

5:30:285:30:33

abnormal foetus. I have had two

normal pregnancies before heading.

5:30:335:30:39

And she ends with these words which

are extraordinarily powerful, I feel

5:30:395:30:43

very angry and I feel that we were

used as guinea pigs. Now for the

5:30:435:30:49

sake of Diane, and for the others

who we represent on all sides of

5:30:495:30:54

this House, let us focus on the

effect that this truck has had on

5:30:545:30:59

them and their families. And it is

all work together, and I know the

5:30:595:31:03

Minister is sincerely wishing to do

that, but this all work together to

5:31:035:31:06

find the answers that they seek.

Keeping them and their suffering at

5:31:065:31:10

the centre of this at all times.

Memes we will have to drop a 25 ad

5:31:105:31:17

will go lower, just.

Thank you

Deputy Speaker, can I start by

5:31:175:31:21

paying tribute to the right

honourable member and my little

5:31:215:31:23

friend, that's honourable friend,

both securing this debate and also

5:31:235:31:29

for their work on this issue over

years and other members who had

5:31:295:31:36

pursued justice for the victims of

primodos over time. I can relatively

5:31:365:31:40

relate to the issue, but one thing

is clear to me, as my honourable

5:31:405:31:45

friend, says the lesson we have to

learn from previous scandals, is

5:31:455:31:53

that any inquiry must have the

confidence of the victims and their

5:31:535:31:57

review report of the expert working

group has already failed that test.

5:31:575:32:02

I'm speaking today because

constituents of mine have been

5:32:025:32:05

affected by the tragic set of events

related to the task, and have

5:32:055:32:10

contacted me saying they have no

confidence in the process or

5:32:105:32:13

conclusions of the report. The peers

and McLendon family have had their

5:32:135:32:20

lives changed by the drug, there can

visit their family issues are a

5:32:205:32:24

direct result of primodos use. My

constituent and his daughter has

5:32:245:32:31

suffered life changing multiple

health issues. This is just to many

5:32:315:32:39

of thousands who need to seek

justice, for the harm caused by the

5:32:395:32:43

drug and the announcement over the

review gave them some see hope, but

5:32:435:32:47

sadly have not been contacted in the

recent weeks, and they shared their

5:32:475:32:52

disappointment and anger experienced

by many following the publication of

5:32:525:32:55

the report. Mr Deputy Speaker, there

are too many question marks over the

5:32:555:33:01

process and conclusions of the

report. The review report itself

5:33:015:33:05

talks about the difficulty via route

finding a robust conclusion. It did

5:33:055:33:12

miss the available evidence was very

limited, it then concludes that the

5:33:125:33:17

body of evidence did not unbalanced,

keyword, support an association

5:33:175:33:20

between use of HP keys and

congenital anomalies. We need more

5:33:205:33:27

explanation of how what is meant by

those words on balance in the like

5:33:275:33:31

of such limited evidence. As we have

heard, in 1977 the medical regulator

5:33:315:33:37

wrote that there was an association

between these tests and birth

5:33:375:33:41

defects. So we much asked, what new

study and evidence is available to

5:33:415:33:45

dispute that conclusion and without

new research, trying to establish a

5:33:455:33:50

new body of evidence is not possible

to disarm and whether primodos is or

5:33:505:33:54

not safe. So a suggestion I agree

with if they can create a fund to

5:33:545:34:01

enable these studies, perhaps using

imaging and molecular study to try

5:34:015:34:05

to get to the truth. Even the

studies are unlikely to resolve the

5:34:055:34:09

issue definitively. It is likely to

come down to a judgement on behalf

5:34:095:34:15

of government on where

responsibility lies, but it would at

5:34:155:34:18

least give comfort to the victims of

the whole process has been carried

5:34:185:34:22

out thoroughly. There are as we have

heard, questions about regular Tory

5:34:225:34:26

regime, surrounding, common

pregnancy test, and I do not have

5:34:265:34:29

time to get into the details, but

the biggest question is whether the

5:34:295:34:33

product should've been allowed on

the market at all, without proper

5:34:335:34:35

texting. That's testing.

I would

like to thank my honourable friend

5:34:355:34:42

for giving way and making an

excellent speech I would also like

5:34:425:34:46

to commend the right honourable

member from Hempstead bring forth

5:34:465:34:51

the motion and indeed other members

in particular, the honourable member

5:34:515:34:55

for Bolton South East, for all of

her work over the years. I think my

5:34:555:34:59

honourable friend will be aware that

countries such as Finland, Sweden,

5:34:595:35:02

Holland and Norway and the use of

hormone pregnancy tests, between

5:35:025:35:09

1970 and 1971, does he not agree

with me that the warning signs were

5:35:095:35:12

kiddie indicated at the time and

therefore should have been taken at

5:35:125:35:15

that time to prevent foetal

malformations and heartache?

He's

5:35:155:35:23

right that makes a good point, we

should ask why it this a little

5:35:235:35:27

regulation for so long to that it is

possible to regulate up on a per

5:35:275:35:32

cautionary basis, and whether there

is a government liability under

5:35:325:35:36

General product lot, which is meant

to protect citizens. These are

5:35:365:35:38

questions that need to be

considered, in detail. Finally there

5:35:385:35:43

are the questions we heard about the

transparency of the report. We have

5:35:435:35:47

heard that the published report is

not the original report first

5:35:475:35:51

presented, and a number of

inaccuracies were reported including

5:35:515:35:55

the were definitive that was removed

to do so is this a definitive report

5:35:555:36:00

and if not think really we need a

new inquiry. I'm running out of time

5:36:005:36:06

so will not talk in great detail

about the other issues of

5:36:065:36:11

transparency because other people

covered it, but Mr Deputy -- Deputy

5:36:115:36:15

Speaker there are too many question

marks over this issue, in order to

5:36:155:36:18

regain trust, we -- government must

commit to just let public inquiry to

5:36:185:36:23

look again at the issue. The inquiry

must have powers needed to bring to

5:36:235:36:30

light all available evidence

relating to the scandal including

5:36:305:36:34

the ability to compel witnesses to

give all evidence. The inquiry must

5:36:345:36:38

be broad enough to look at the

scientific and legal issues in the

5:36:385:36:42

case. Including allegations of a

liability. And finally, the victims

5:36:425:36:46

and the families must be involved in

the design and implementation of the

5:36:465:36:49

inquiry, following the hills for

inquiries families of first

5:36:495:36:52

approach. As we heard, there are

concerts across the House, on the

5:36:525:36:58

issue this is not a political issue,

something is not right here. And we

5:36:585:37:01

need to get to the truth, we owe it

to the victims and we owe it to

5:37:015:37:07

people who may still be taking

products related to this drugs. It

5:37:075:37:12

is time, the only way we can do that

is to have a judge let inquiry to

5:37:125:37:18

get to the truth. Melo thank you

Deputy Speaker, and my

5:37:185:37:23

congratulations to the right

honourable member for bringing forth

5:37:235:37:28

this debate and may I add my weight

and support to this called for

5:37:285:37:34

statutory inquiry over the scandal

of the supply of primodos, as a

5:37:345:37:39

pregnancy test. He drew attention

over the years to the product use

5:37:395:37:43

and like him I am a product of 1957

and could've easily have been my

5:37:435:37:47

mother who took the drug. In the

same way, and members across the

5:37:475:37:51

chamber, have referred to their

constituents and the contact with a

5:37:515:37:55

constituent of mine that has brought

me to contribute to today's debate,

5:37:555:38:02

and the president Ken Pasini,

contacted me on many occasions, is

5:38:025:38:04

Irene, who lives in my constituency,

and I over something of an apology.

5:38:045:38:14

Because on the first point of

contact, I'm afraid I gave her

5:38:145:38:17

rather standard reply and did not

really know her or understand enough

5:38:175:38:22

about the issues that were affecting

her and she continued to write to me

5:38:225:38:28

and draw my attention to the issue

and we eventually met in June 20 14.

5:38:285:38:33

And then again in August 2015, when

she brought along her daughter

5:38:335:38:42

Camaro. Kammerer was born in

February 1973, she is now 44 years

5:38:425:38:49

old, and like the member of the

constituency, she was very able to

5:38:495:38:56

come me the date on which she was

first given primodos, which was on

5:38:565:38:59

the 19th of June 1972 when she

understood that she was at

5:38:595:39:05

approximately 7-8 weeks pregnant.

She gave birth to her daughter with

5:39:055:39:10

brain damage and that has led to

many other debilitating issues such

5:39:105:39:14

as learning difficulties and

epilepsy. At our meeting, she asked

5:39:145:39:21

me to meet with Marie who runs the

Association for children that is why

5:39:215:39:28

hormone pregnancy test, and I think

we should pay tribute to them Mr

5:39:285:39:32

Deputy Speaker for their work that

they have done intron people's

5:39:325:39:36

attention to this particular issue

and making sure that the Dutch

5:39:365:39:40

members are hearing and informed and

know exactly what has happened. The

5:39:405:39:46

other key point that she told me

about was that there was no advice

5:39:465:39:50

whatsoever given to her. About any

possible side effects of taking this

5:39:505:39:55

particular drug. She drew my

attention to the many meetings that

5:39:555:40:01

the party group at, and I know the

member of Bolton South East has put

5:40:015:40:04

tremendous work in it, and bringing

the party group together and adding

5:40:045:40:08

to the lobby in this particular

case. The most recent contact I had

5:40:085:40:13

on the issue was from her daughter,

who wrote letter to me telling me

5:40:135:40:18

that she herself is a victim of a

primodos, as she wrote to me on the

5:40:185:40:24

28th of November, telling me about

the inadequate nature of the report

5:40:245:40:30

of the expert working group, as she

set out for me the case which the

5:40:305:40:36

honourable member made, why that is

completely inadequate and why there

5:40:365:40:41

needs to be a further look at this

issue in exactly the same way as

5:40:415:40:45

many members across the chamber have

requested. I agree with a dusty

5:40:455:40:51

member from Hamilton said, this is

an issue or badly need to get to

5:40:515:40:55

truth and all the members in the

chamber, very much looking forward

5:40:555:40:58

to whatever positive remarks the

Minister may be able to make today.

5:40:585:41:07

Thank you Mr Speaker, I would like

to pay tribute to Marie, whose

5:41:075:41:12

charities Association, she's a

mother of a child despite primodos

5:41:125:41:16

and my constituent. The families pin

their hopes are true, families let

5:41:165:41:22

down by their doctors and regulators

and now the left -- but the

5:41:225:41:28

motherboard. They deserve a

transparency process that is now

5:41:285:41:33

shrouded in secrecy, the Observer

was about by confidentiality order

5:41:335:41:37

that there is, and I'm not just

talking about one constituent that I

5:41:375:41:40

have, I have nine in a relatively

small geographic area, who have

5:41:405:41:45

children born with defects, and I do

not know how many miscarriages or

5:41:455:41:49

stillbirths there were, what women

were given the struck him up by

5:41:495:41:52

believe we should try to get those

figures and I would like to also

5:41:525:41:56

know if as it is claimed, if this is

a naturally occurring event, whether

5:41:565:41:59

nine babies in the similar timescale

with similar defects aboard to women

5:41:595:42:03

in my area who did not take

primodos. Often as we have heard,

5:42:035:42:08

the women were not given a

prescription there were given a pail

5:42:085:42:11

with a joke saying we don't have to

kill the rabbit now this is the new

5:42:115:42:15

way, so we may never know the true

figures. But to return to the

5:42:155:42:18

inquiry, first major failing we

believe there was no agreement to

5:42:185:42:22

look at the possible link not cause

a link and that is not the

5:42:225:42:26

semantics, it actually lowers the

burden of proof. Secondly, there

5:42:265:42:31

were conflicts of interest rates by

Marie at the time, and many of the

5:42:315:42:34

experts who worked for the companies

at the time, the victims who were

5:42:345:42:38

invited to give evidence were

treated appallingly and there was a

5:42:385:42:42

selective use of studies, the

majority favour the link, and there

5:42:425:42:47

was the speedy withdrawal of the

draft report which took two years to

5:42:475:42:50

come to its conclusion, and yet all

the press and reports advice for

5:42:505:42:56

counsel were quickly after Marie

Lyons went and gave a presentation.

5:42:565:43:03

The first draft she saw stated it

was not possible to reach definitive

5:43:035:43:07

conclusions and have many

inconsistencies. The Forks later,

5:43:075:43:11

the final report came out, and a

final report removed that paragraph

5:43:115:43:16

which contains upgrades, it also

removed many of the inconsistencies

5:43:165:43:21

she's highlighted. Now I have read

the report, and I am not a

5:43:215:43:25

scientist, but if ever there was a

report that reads at the conclusion

5:43:255:43:28

was written for us, and the data was

later date than this report takes

5:43:285:43:32

all the Bosco. -- boxes. I'm

particularly incensed by the other

5:43:325:43:40

genetic testing, briefly talking

about when my constituents who came

5:43:405:43:43

to me and she is a severely disabled

son, she had taken primodos and went

5:43:435:43:48

to the doctors for analysis and she

wanted a big family. She said she

5:43:485:43:52

had a lot of love to get, as she was

told it was probably her fault so

5:43:525:43:56

she would never -- so she never had

any more children. So to have the

5:43:565:44:00

suggested again in the report is

beyond devastating for her. It

5:44:005:44:04

relies on a lot of old studies which

I believe should be research finds a

5:44:045:44:10

reinforced, for the new studies and

we need to check whether the current

5:44:105:44:13

regulators are fit for purpose. We

cannot allow our children and

5:44:135:44:17

grandchildren to be put in this

position again. We cannot go back

5:44:175:44:21

and make things right for these

families. But we what we can do is

5:44:215:44:25

give them answers about what went

wrong and how it went wrong right a

5:44:255:44:30

fully independent Outlook inquiry

and that means full disclosure of

5:44:305:44:35

all documents. Through a process

managed by the victims and I can

5:44:355:44:40

assure everybody here at that Marie

is quite capable of managing the

5:44:405:44:44

process.

5:44:445:44:49

They need the opportunity to

scrutinise written and oral

5:44:495:44:52

evidence. It has to be wide and

broad, it has to investigate not

5:44:525:44:58

just a possible association but why

the regulatory bodies failed to

5:44:585:45:02

withdraw the drug despite being

aware of the dangers. The warnings

5:45:025:45:06

were first given in 1958 but the

medical profession wasn't alerted

5:45:065:45:12

until 1975, and even in 1977 it was

still being prescribed. We must look

5:45:125:45:18

into the allegations of criminal

conduct, why there was no

5:45:185:45:22

intervention by government bodies

and why the risks

5:45:225:45:33

were hidden from the victims and the

role of the manufacturer in this.

5:45:345:45:37

And most importantly families have

to be centre of this inquiry. They

5:45:375:45:39

must have a role in deciding the

terms of reference and they have to

5:45:395:45:42

see a true light being shone on what

has been a very dark period, and

5:45:425:45:45

there should be some compensation.

Nothing can compensate for the 40

5:45:455:45:48

years of injustice but financial

security would ease some of their

5:45:485:45:52

worries. This won't go away, the

families won't go away and as they

5:45:525:45:57

age their need for answers grows

more urgent. I urge the Government

5:45:575:46:01

to act upon this motion speedily to

give the families some peace and

5:46:015:46:11

restore their trust in justice.

Like

many other members in this place, I

5:46:115:46:18

represent families who strongly

believe their lives were forever

5:46:185:46:22

changed true to -- due to the drug

Primodos. Today I speak on behalf of

5:46:225:46:35

the Gooch family. Their criticisms

of the expert working group 's

5:46:355:46:40

report on why they will continue

their fight for justice and layout

5:46:405:46:44

with us today. In June 1970 Chris

Gooch was described Primodos by her

5:46:445:46:50

GP to find out whether or not she

was pregnant. She trusted the words

5:46:505:46:55

of her GP and had no idea the drug

might Beyonce 's or that it had been

5:46:555:47:00

linked to deformities. It was only

when her daughter Emma was born in

5:47:005:47:06

January 1971 that she was found to

have deformities in her hands and

5:47:065:47:11

feet with both sets of fingers

foreshortened and her toes webbed

5:47:115:47:15

and foreshortened. Her mother told

me about how Emma had struggled to

5:47:155:47:21

live with these deformities for her

entire life. Chris said, "There are

5:47:215:47:27

many things Emma would have liked to

have done like playing the piano,

5:47:275:47:31

but she has been unable to do so

because of limited mobility in her

5:47:315:47:35

hands. This also came to impact her

education and at secondary school

5:47:355:47:40

she became school phobic and was

physically sick every morning before

5:47:405:47:44

going to school. Emma has always

suffered from severe back problems

5:47:445:47:48

and has had to live in intense pain

all the time. She has sought

5:47:485:47:55

treatment and scams have confirmed

she has spinal deterioration for

5:47:555:47:58

which she was offered a spinal

fusion. This only had a limited

5:47:585:48:02

chance of success and risked making

her condition worse. Emma refused

5:48:025:48:06

this and is trying to come to terms

with her long-term prognosis. She

5:48:065:48:11

can't work full-time, she has to pay

for all her medications and has even

5:48:115:48:15

been refused a blue badge despite

having to use a stick to walk and

5:48:155:48:20

having no proper fingers or toes.

Emma will be 47 next month and can

5:48:205:48:25

only manage to work for three days a

week and even in

5:48:255:48:39

this she finds extremely draining.

She's worried about her ability to

5:48:445:48:46

keep working in the future and the

implications this has for her

5:48:465:48:48

financially and socially." Mr Deputy

Speaker, I met with Emma and she

5:48:485:48:51

told me "Myself and many others have

to live with the devastating results

5:48:515:48:53

of mothers being given hormone

pregnancy tests like Primodos. While

5:48:535:48:55

the effects on me were much less

severe than another that since I was

5:48:555:48:59

born with specific deformities which

I've only seen shared by other

5:48:595:49:03

Primodos victims so in my mind this

can be the only possible cause."

5:49:035:49:09

Would the lady agree there are

others not so severely affected, who

5:49:095:49:15

are similarly affected and feel

great pain.

I absolutely agree. It

5:49:155:49:24

was said across this chamber today

that we are giving examples but

5:49:245:49:27

there are many victims with

different levels of disability,

5:49:275:49:31

illness and deformity due to this

drug. When I asked Chris and Emma

5:49:315:49:36

what they thought about the expert

working group's report and how the

5:49:365:49:41

inquiry process was handled over the

last three years, their criticisms

5:49:415:49:45

could not have been clearer. Chris

told me "I feel angry they treated

5:49:455:49:50

us like idiots, we have been treated

appallingly. The group produced a

5:49:505:49:56

report in October and then followed

a meeting with our chair. They

5:49:565:50:00

removed some material and reissued

it a month later. They said it was

5:50:005:50:04

to make it more readable. They found

no causal

5:50:045:50:18

link which they weren't even request

to look for. They only gave Dave's

5:50:325:50:35

notice to organise a visit to hear

the findings of the report and I'm

5:50:355:50:38

sure that's because they hoped no

one would turn up to hear them. Now

5:50:385:50:40

nearly 50 years on our children, the

ones who are still alive, are still

5:50:405:50:43

suffering. I'm angry that for Emma

and many other members of the

5:50:435:50:46

association, the children damaged by

hormone pregnancy tests, life is a

5:50:465:50:48

constant struggle and we still

haven't really been heard." Emma

5:50:485:50:50

herself told me she cannot help but

feel angry that for decades we have

5:50:505:50:53

waited for an independent and

unbiased inquiry that the expert

5:50:535:50:55

working group is obviously flawed

report feels like an attempt to

5:50:555:50:57

discredit us and protect the people

at fault. I have been reminded of

5:50:575:51:07

the thalidomide and contaminated

blood scandals. I am reminded of the

5:51:075:51:15

fact it took decades of tireless

campaigning until the truth and

5:51:155:51:18

natural justice was reached. The

inquiry has been accused of failing

5:51:185:51:22

to consider all of the evidence

fairly, failing to have the trust

5:51:225:51:26

and confidence of the victims for

who it was set up and failing to be

5:51:265:51:30

transparent and open in its due

process. The inquiry failed to

5:51:305:51:35

consider any evidence regarding

systematic regulatory failures of

5:51:355:51:38

government bodies at the time.

Campaigners have widely dismissed

5:51:385:51:45

the inquiry is seriously flawed. I

joined the calls for a public

5:51:455:51:49

inquiry into the use of Primodos and

its connection to deformities and

5:51:495:51:53

other birth defects. I want to end

by once again quoting the words of

5:51:535:51:58

my constituents, and the Gooch. As I

believe her determination will be

5:51:585:52:02

shared by other members from all

sides of the House - Emma Gooch. She

5:52:025:52:10

said the victims and parents still

deserve justice and we will continue

5:52:105:52:14

to fight for it.

Can I join in

thanks to the honourable friend for

5:52:145:52:23

Hamill and Alton Southeast that

actually perhaps even more than

5:52:235:52:28

them, they will forgive me for this,

it is the people who have been

5:52:285:52:33

campaigning, some for many decades

to get justice, and to have the

5:52:335:52:36

truth revealed about what Primodos

was all about. I am very strong

5:52:365:52:41

listening to the Honourable members,

the consistency of the stories but

5:52:415:52:44

there is one detail, and I don't

think the Minister will be able to

5:52:445:52:50

help and that's not a challenge to

him, we will probably never know how

5:52:505:52:55

many women were given Primodos, we

will probably never know and nor

5:52:555:52:58

will the victims of Primodos always

have been in a position to know they

5:52:585:53:03

were victims because even amongst my

own constituents, one constituent of

5:53:035:53:08

mine who took Primodos has a

pregnancy test those years back, she

5:53:085:53:13

lost a child a month after he was

born with a blocked oesophagus and

5:53:135:53:23

other physical difficulties. She has

spent a life not knowing the child

5:53:235:53:30

she was brought up with. One of my

constituents who was born with only

5:53:305:53:34

one finger on each hand, reduced

films and only eight toes, has spent

5:53:345:53:40

a life as somebody with

disabilities, trying to live a full

5:53:405:53:44

life. She's a mother of a healthy

child, she works and all those

5:53:445:53:48

things we would applaud in her, but

she only begun to that Primodos

5:53:485:53:54

might have been the cause of her

disabilities when in casual

5:53:545:53:59

conversation with her mother before

her mother died she told her about

5:53:595:54:03

the tests she'd had those years back

before she was born, and then a bit

5:54:035:54:08

later on linking up her own

disabilities as being remarkably

5:54:085:54:12

similar to those who were Primodos

victims elsewhere and having found

5:54:125:54:17

nobody else with similar kinds of

disabilities. Mr Deputy Speaker,

5:54:175:54:22

that's why I say we may never

properly know the number of victims.

5:54:225:54:29

Our society ought to be able to

establish the real truth in this

5:54:295:54:33

issue. It matters because there is a

strange that vested interests have

5:54:335:54:43

for many decades, for 40 years, been

able to obscure and simply

5:54:435:54:49

deliberately to prevent the truth

coming out. Of course there are

5:54:495:54:53

consequences if the truth does come

out, if we can establish exact may

5:54:535:55:00

be scientifically provable

causalities is actually difficult

5:55:005:55:02

over this period of time because of

course this is a drug that is no

5:55:025:55:06

longer going to be used for the

purpose it was originally inflicted

5:55:065:55:10

on women for. So the kind of

scientific veracity may be difficult

5:55:105:55:16

test in a way that would let

scientists insist that the causal

5:55:165:55:21

link is proven. It doesn't mean to

the consistency, if you want, even

5:55:215:55:28

the statistical consistency of

victims relative to the use of this

5:55:285:55:33

drug isn't one that should give us a

genuine belief that there is enough

5:55:335:55:41

correlation to allow us to draw our

own conclusions. That's important

5:55:415:55:45

because this in the end for the

victims, yes of course they want the

5:55:455:55:49

truth, they want the scientific

community, the medical community, to

5:55:495:55:56

accept and own up to the faults. We

have got to say never again can we

5:55:565:56:01

have this kind of... Can no longer

have a medical community driven by

5:56:015:56:12

money but where money actually says

they are willing to let the light

5:56:125:56:16

shine into their practice. We can't

have that regime any more so

5:56:165:56:20

Primodos matters to the victims and

it matters because of what it means

5:56:205:56:24

even more so. If I can conclude by

simply saying this, of course

5:56:245:56:29

victims do look if we can move this

debate forward, if we can have this

5:56:295:56:34

judge-led inquiry, if we can have

some credibility of those final

5:56:345:56:39

reports. Of course that will lead,

and I understand why governments can

5:56:395:56:43

be reluctant on this, to the demand

of compensation. But as my

5:56:435:56:48

constituents says at the moment she

is leading a very full life despite

5:56:485:56:53

her disabilities but she's 51 now.

She says she can feel the future

5:56:535:56:57

beginning to impose on her. She

would like to believe that as she

5:56:575:57:01

reaches an older age, when she finds

it even more difficult to carry her

5:57:015:57:07

shopping, that there is some

recognition and where appropriate

5:57:075:57:10

compensation.

I am here because of

my constituent Sue Illsley who took

5:57:105:57:17

this drug when she was a teenager

and her daughter has suffered

5:57:175:57:22

disabilities as a result, and it's

obviously affected her whole life. I

5:57:225:57:26

want to pay tribute to the

honourable member for Hamill instead

5:57:265:57:32

and Bolton South East and hope the

Minister will reread speeches of my

5:57:325:57:35

Honourable friends because they made

some powerful points about the

5:57:355:57:41

evidence. I want to use some

evidence given to me by Jason

5:57:415:57:49

Farrell, the investigative news

reporter from Sky, who has done a

5:57:495:57:56

fantastic job over the years to

bring this to light and refer to

5:57:565:57:59

some documents he found in the

Berlin Wall National Archives.

5:57:595:58:03

Minutes of meetings between the

company Shearing chemicals Limited

5:58:035:58:07

and their lawyer and one scientific

adviser. I'm going to read expats

5:58:075:58:13

from the minutes of a meeting held

in 1977 at Goldsmith building Temple

5:58:135:58:19

London, when Shearing were getting

legal advice. There are few extracts

5:58:195:58:30

which show this has been a whole

cover-up over years and it has to

5:58:305:58:35

stop here today. We have to pass

this motion and the Government have

5:58:355:58:40

to have no more cover-ups.

5:58:405:58:45

He then went on to write a letter

addressing many doctors and 9068,

5:58:455:58:50

requesting that it was important to

something more must be done. He went

5:58:505:58:55

into the letter in detail, and

suggested it would be dynamite in

5:58:555:58:59

the hands of the claimant. Another

member from them was raised, in the

5:58:595:59:08

memo and it was a sum of event

stating that they should abandon the

5:59:085:59:11

product for the use of pregnancy

testing. He wanted to know what had

5:59:115:59:16

been done on their side in response

to this and there was no answer. I

5:59:165:59:22

go on, he thought that if this case

was tried to the end by a judge that

5:59:225:59:26

the chances were that the company

would be found in neglect of its

5:59:265:59:28

duty. He stated that it would seem

to be a 5-1 chance that if there was

5:59:285:59:35

a malformation of the child and the

mother to primodos while pregnant it

5:59:355:59:38

was the fault of the drug. Pages

seven, he said it was open to us

5:59:385:59:50

talking to Sharon, while

establishing a voluntary scheme

5:59:505:59:54

justifying a claim given proposition

without proof of liability simply

5:59:545:59:57

accepting worse possibility, and the

other was a take it to court. The

5:59:576:00:04

doctor from Shearing said that he

was hesitant in establishing a

6:00:046:00:06

scheme as the product is marked

worldwide and if we introduce it in

6:00:066:00:11

one country than it should be

introduced in other countries and

6:00:116:00:13

are trying to escape back in 1977

their moral responsibility Mr Deputy

6:00:136:00:17

Speaker. There are other prime

issues from this particular letter,

6:00:176:00:25

but because of time Mr Deputy

Speaker I shall go on to the other

6:00:256:00:28

minute, this is a minute of reported

meeting between a professor who was

6:00:286:00:32

a scientist turns Paris, and it took

place in Berlin on the 16th of

6:00:326:00:38

February and it was in 1978, and

this is admitted to the next day of

6:00:386:00:43

17th of February, and the meeting

was in Berlin to determine the

6:00:436:00:50

opinion of the validity and quality

of work carried out on primodos.

6:00:506:00:52

First question, that was posted, did

we as a company carry out all the

6:00:526:01:00

studies were supposed to? In his

opinion, we should have done a much

6:01:006:01:04

more. He expressed a view that after

discovering that a certain dose was

6:01:046:01:10

embryo lethal in rabbits and rats,

we should've carried out terror

6:01:106:01:14

tossed her studies in primates and

9068. Mr Deputy Speaker this is a

6:01:146:01:19

scandal. They knew. Their lawyers

were telling them they would be

6:01:196:01:26

liable if found guilty in a court

and would have to pay. Why does this

6:01:266:01:30

continue on? We have heard from all

honourable gentlemen and ladies

6:01:306:01:36

today, of the cases of constituents

up and down our country whose lives

6:01:366:01:39

have been blighted by this. Why

continue any more? I say to the

6:01:396:01:45

Minister, he has to stand up to the

official briefings he's getting. He

6:01:456:01:50

has to stand up to the nonsense of

that continued continued, continued

6:01:506:01:54

obfuscation of cover. Surely, he

must now get on the box later in the

6:01:546:02:02

debate to say he will support the

motion as well as and the Government

6:02:026:02:06

will set up a judicial inquiry as

soon as possible.

Of treatment is

6:02:066:02:12

each.

Thank you are much it is an

honour to be in this debate and

6:02:126:02:18

humbling and moving and I want to

commend all members who have been

6:02:186:02:22

contributing particular the right

honourable member from Hamill had

6:02:226:02:24

said, and Clark's Houthi paid

tribute to who drafted the motion,

6:02:246:02:29

also the honourable lady, she has

fought tooth and nail for the

6:02:296:02:36

victims of primodos. As has Merry

light, who to me is a modern-day

6:02:366:02:39

hero as far as I'm concerned, and

like other members, this is one of

6:02:396:02:44

the first case of the came to me was

when I was first elected, in 2015,

6:02:446:02:47

and my constituents who took

primodos in 1970 is legality along

6:02:476:02:56

with her daughter, she was born with

birth defects, cerebral palsy and

6:02:566:03:01

deafness and an underactive thyroid

and diagnosis 11. Her mobility is

6:03:016:03:07

getting worse, I want to briefly say

that some of the comments they have

6:03:076:03:09

given to me, are now describing what

life is the mic and she says our

6:03:096:03:14

lives have been turned upside down.

Are we going to see Justice for our

6:03:146:03:19

kids it is now because everyday we

see the difference and it is real

6:03:196:03:24

these people need to be taken care.

The option has been taken away from

6:03:246:03:30

them... Passed on, as she said I

don't see why there was a cover-up

6:03:306:03:39

in the first place they should cover

it -- fix it and we cannot see this

6:03:396:03:44

enough, we are in agreement it is

best, and that is what we have had a

6:03:446:03:49

close party agreement and the

strength of feeling I hope and I am

6:03:496:03:51

sure the Minister is very aware of,

it is also at best when we represent

6:03:516:03:55

to speak for our constituents as so

many Everwood here has done, and

6:03:556:04:00

another lady contacted me this week,

and she did not want to be named,

6:04:006:04:04

but she said I was wondering if I

could count on your support on

6:04:046:04:07

Thursday, my God -- daughter died at

birth after to the drug, she was

6:04:076:04:10

born with out the top of curb brain

is called this week would have been

6:04:106:04:16

her birthday and I would have been

yesterday. To me that his herring

6:04:166:04:20

and some of the deformities and

disabilities that honourable members

6:04:206:04:22

have spoken of, in some of the

comments I have to job that struck

6:04:226:04:31

me, the honourable member from North

Devon talked about constituents

6:04:316:04:34

being treated as guinea pigs and

that essentially what there is

6:04:346:04:36

treated as was human giving is

because it is not forget, this I was

6:04:366:04:42

on the market on regulated and

untested for five years. Before any

6:04:426:04:47

proper research was done into it and

I just think, you know, the routable

6:04:476:04:51

member spoke about the research and

information that came from Germany

6:04:516:04:56

and some of the vast number of

documents that were not looked at by

6:04:566:05:01

the expert working group, mambo

friend from Klesko cannot be here

6:05:016:05:04

today, but he spoke about his

constituent who has been affected

6:05:046:05:08

and wanted to share his experience,

rustles the youngest of four

6:05:086:05:12

children, the other two were all

born healthy, and his mother was

6:05:126:05:16

prescribed a similar drug. And was

left with significant disabilities.

6:05:166:05:22

Which has been devastating. Now,

since the release of the report, our

6:05:226:05:31

constituents have been for the let

down because I was there as I know

6:05:316:05:35

other members were as well, my right

honourable friend the member from

6:05:356:05:38

Bolton South East and I wear walked

out of the press conference when it

6:05:386:05:43

was taking place, and some of the

women who took primodos told me that

6:05:436:05:46

the launch of the report, that they

had been told they should not be

6:05:466:05:50

happy and take comfort knowing that

it was not taking primodos that

6:05:506:05:53

cause their babies to be born with

defects or malformations, how

6:05:536:05:58

offensive and insulting to say

something like that to victims who

6:05:586:06:02

have experienced so much trauma?

None of these women are happy or

6:06:026:06:09

comforted, and many of them were

absolutely shocked a particularly

6:06:096:06:11

that they didn't even want to watch

the sky documentary that we have

6:06:116:06:16

spoken about, which seems utterly

terrible because they said they did

6:06:166:06:20

not want to be prejudice. And as we

have found the report, was changed

6:06:206:06:26

between the draft and final report,

in terms of process Mr Deputy

6:06:266:06:31

Speaker, in terms of public money

that has been committed to this

6:06:316:06:34

process, I think it is quite

shocking but that was a situation

6:06:346:06:38

that has now been uncovered and I

hope the Government will reflect on

6:06:386:06:41

everything that has been asked on

the inquiry moving forward. But

6:06:416:06:47

also, just how a process can fall

down and become so bad, you know, we

6:06:476:06:52

know that merry lien, as we have

mentioned by the right honourable

6:06:526:06:57

lady, was held under the most

serious and difficult circumstances

6:06:576:07:03

by the legal document that she had

to sign. Marie line wanted to help

6:07:036:07:10

she wanted to make the process

better and she had the information

6:07:106:07:13

that she could have passed on, but

she wasn't able to do that. And

6:07:136:07:19

because of the document she had to

sign, she wasn't at the lily able to

6:07:196:07:23

do the job she wanted to do, and I

think that the Minister considers

6:07:236:07:27

that as well. I was deeply

concerning that what was described

6:07:276:07:35

as a side of the process by the

expert working group was not in

6:07:356:07:39

actual fact about science, because

many of the members here have told

6:07:396:07:42

us about the concerns that recently

when the doctor when she asked by

6:07:426:07:50

the drug not being up to reject

inclusion to the final report which

6:07:506:07:53

could reach Cusa, she said that the

commission on human medicines

6:07:536:07:59

buckling collectively saying it

should be more conclusive, when it

6:07:596:08:01

was put to her as a follow-up

question that we are not factors,

6:08:016:08:04

she said yes they are, but the point

is that these people do not sit

6:08:046:08:10

through the group and months ago to

the information, so how could they

6:08:106:08:13

possibly have backed information?

And in conclusion Mr Deputy Speaker

6:08:136:08:20

I know we are pressed for time, I

want to put my constituent once

6:08:206:08:24

again she says we need help now, and

not five or six years' time, she

6:08:246:08:29

doesn't want public inquiry she

wants him to compensate for what has

6:08:296:08:32

happened to her and her daughter and

she wants her daughter to have a

6:08:326:08:38

life and no one is prepared to give

her that when he trusted people

6:08:386:08:41

governing us, we look back all these

years and what is happening now,

6:08:416:08:45

there is no failing us, then the

drugs go out and should not go out

6:08:456:08:48

and they were negligent, the same

people are not around, so why can't

6:08:486:08:52

someone just do the right thing and

say that we were wrong?

Thank you

6:08:526:08:59

Deputy Speaker, I want to stop by

and congratulate the honourable

6:08:596:09:08

member who brought this to us today,

and my honourable friend the Member

6:09:086:09:12

for Bolton South East, who has been

a strident campaigner for over six

6:09:126:09:16

years, and knew all about this

before it even reached my

6:09:166:09:20

consciousness, and for the accident

if rather too short speech, that she

6:09:206:09:25

was giving today. I would also like

to think other members for the

6:09:256:09:31

passionate and thoughtful

contributions and please forgive me

6:09:316:09:34

if due to time restraints I do not

name you all, but ultimately thank

6:09:346:09:38

you must go to Marie line, the chair

of the Association of children

6:09:386:09:45

damaged by hormone pregnancy test, I

am sure that I speak for all of us

6:09:456:09:48

in the House today when I say she is

the utmost respect and admiration of

6:09:486:09:52

members from across the House. And

my contribution this afternoon, I

6:09:526:09:57

wanted to touch upon the science

used to come to the reviews

6:09:576:10:00

conclusions. But also what is

missing and what should be in

6:10:006:10:03

considering what -- before any

conclusions were drawn. I will than

6:10:036:10:08

highlight why this is a matter of

injustice and why it is important

6:10:086:10:11

that answers are found. So we can

finally conclude this sad chapter.

6:10:116:10:17

The main sticking point of the

reviews conclusion is that the

6:10:176:10:21

expert working group found the signs

did not support a causal association

6:10:216:10:26

between HP keys during pregnancy and

adverse outcomes. My focus would be

6:10:266:10:31

on the science used in the

historical documentations we are

6:10:316:10:34

aware of, and which seems to have

not been considered some of which

6:10:346:10:39

were heard in the excellent speech

from honourable member for Kingston.

6:10:396:10:42

So I would not deviate into the

important argument around a possible

6:10:426:10:47

and causal, as this case was made

quite copperheads of you by other

6:10:476:10:53

honourable members including the

member from Hammel Hampstead. From

6:10:536:10:58

the onset, I must make your that I

am no scientist and I'm sure you're

6:10:586:11:02

all aware that, and my speech is not

a critique of the integrity and

6:11:026:11:07

expertise of those specialists

involved. However, the conclusions

6:11:076:11:12

arrived at in the report and the

conversations I have had with many

6:11:126:11:15

who have had -- been involved in the

campaign to show a need to be

6:11:156:11:20

critical of what has been concluded

by the expert working group. And

6:11:206:11:26

this is our duty as members of

Parliament, especially on such an

6:11:266:11:30

important matter for so many women

and their families, but also because

6:11:306:11:33

of the great deal of public funds

that were invested into this review

6:11:336:11:38

over the past few years. In the

report, consideration of the

6:11:386:11:42

scientific detail regarding --

regarding expertise it is argued

6:11:426:11:46

that there inconsistencies in the

conclusions drawn, from the evidence

6:11:466:11:50

used. Take for example the fact that

it the 15 studies that looked at

6:11:506:11:54

heart defects, 11 of them favoured a

link and five studies into limber

6:11:546:11:59

reduction, all found a link. Yet the

studies were deemed to show

6:11:596:12:02

insufficient evidence. Of the drug's

hard. Even information I requested

6:12:026:12:10

recently and just got this week from

the NHRA and the lead up to this

6:12:106:12:14

debate, they're at odds with the

conclusions of the review including

6:12:146:12:18

graphs which plot birth defects

against the availability of HBP, and

6:12:186:12:23

I think even to my untrained eye,

they do show a possible link. In one

6:12:236:12:30

graph, it is shown that birth

defects increased during the period

6:12:306:12:35

that HBP was on the market in

shortly afterwards, and then began

6:12:356:12:40

to decrease after they were taken

off the market. Further in the

6:12:406:12:44

briefing I received, the NHRA said

that for every 100 babies born in

6:12:446:12:48

the general population, around 2-4

are expected to have a birth defect

6:12:486:12:53

which would mean that a total of

14,000 babies a year would be

6:12:536:12:57

expected to be born with a birth

defect. Anyway, just generally. And

6:12:576:13:03

upon using the figures, they

concluded that over 1 million women

6:13:036:13:09

who took HBP, as many as 19,000

babies would be born with a birth

6:13:096:13:12

defect irrespective of additional

risks from HBP. Yet compare primodos

6:13:126:13:20

to thalidomide for but -- it says,

was a 600 children affected UK with

6:13:206:13:28

over 30 million prescriptions of

thalidomide, that is the percentage

6:13:286:13:30

and I got help with these numbers of

.002%, and primodos which sold 1.2

6:13:306:13:40

million prescriptions, and has 800

children affected with a percentage

6:13:406:13:44

of .06%. This shows a much much

higher prevalence caused by primodos

6:13:446:13:51

compared to thalidomide. This shows

how little meaningful a comparison

6:13:516:13:56

of the HPT adverse reactions is

against today prevalence of birth

6:13:566:14:02

defects, and the general population,

and it is hardly a defence of

6:14:026:14:06

disproving a link. As I have said, I

am no scientific professional, but

6:14:066:14:11

the red flags that arise when

reading with the evidence says, it

6:14:116:14:15

was the conclusions were drawn from

them, are not once I believe only an

6:14:156:14:20

expert in this field would see. This

reflects the arguments raised by

6:14:206:14:26

Doctor Neil Leslie, that the report

does not provide definitive evidence

6:14:266:14:32

it was safe and others who said that

the only conclusion that can be John

6:14:326:14:35

is that a link cannot be ruled out.

This leads me onto my next point

6:14:356:14:41

which is to briefly touch upon the

historic perspective and cover-up of

6:14:416:14:46

the evidence. You have to use that

word that is only one we can use as

6:14:466:14:50

this is something that should have

been considered by the expert

6:14:506:14:52

working group.

6:14:526:14:57

One example was when the regulator

knew of a potential 5-1 risk the

6:14:576:15:04

drug could cause deformities but the

evidence was apparently later

6:15:046:15:08

destroyed. This was a running theme

and I haven't got time to go into it

6:15:086:15:12

but it is a running theme through

the chronology of this scandal,

6:15:126:15:17

where we see multiple examples of

suppressed information regarding the

6:15:176:15:21

adverse effects and delayed

notification of these effects to

6:15:216:15:26

medical professionals who administer

the drugs. It's also deeply

6:15:266:15:30

concerning this drug came onto the

market in 1958 with no studies on

6:15:306:15:34

its effects at all until 1963, so

that was five years before it even

6:15:346:15:45

underwent testing and was still

officially in circulation until

6:15:456:15:53

1975. But we are aware of cases that

exist of its use up until 1978. All

6:15:536:15:59

of the evidence uncovered should

have been considered as part of the

6:15:596:16:03

review and the question that arises

is why was it not? It is important

6:16:036:16:10

that those affected have the trust

and confidence of any review or

6:16:106:16:15

inquiry undertaken. In this instance

this has not been the case. The

6:16:156:16:19

victims feel this review has muddied

the waters even more than before it

6:16:196:16:24

was conducted and their views have

been ignored. I have been told many

6:16:246:16:29

harrowing stories, lots of which we

have heard today and how time and

6:16:296:16:33

again they have been ignored. These

women did not ask for hormonal

6:16:336:16:38

pregnancy tests and were not aware

of the effects on their unborn baby.

6:16:386:16:42

There was just given them, sometimes

out of the supply from a drawer in

6:16:426:16:51

the Doctor's desk. A great injustice

has been inflicted on these women

6:16:516:16:54

and it's up to this House to put

pressure on the Government of the

6:16:546:16:58

day here and now in a fully

cross-party nonpartisan way to make

6:16:586:17:03

things right. It is paramount that

the judgment public inquiry is

6:17:036:17:09

conducted, one which is independent

and can fully examine all of the

6:17:096:17:15

materials and documentation is

available and insist all information

6:17:156:17:18

is made public including that which

has been withheld so far. I hope

6:17:186:17:22

this debate helps us take us one

step further to achieving that. And

6:17:226:17:31

I quote the Member for Mid Norfolk,

when he stated in October 2014 and

6:17:316:17:38

instigated this review that the

review would "Shed light on the

6:17:386:17:42

issue and bring all of important

closure in an era of transparency. "

6:17:426:17:55

Let's make sure what he promised is

actually achieved.

Thank you, and

6:17:556:18:01

let me start by saying this debate

has been carried out with I think

6:18:016:18:06

the tone and a style which does this

House and families who have

6:18:066:18:12

campaigned for so long great credit.

Let me congratulate my right

6:18:126:18:22

honourable friend and -- in securing

a further debate on this issue, a

6:18:226:18:31

tribute to the members of this House

who continue to campaigned

6:18:316:18:35

tirelessly on the half of those who

were given a hormonal pregnancy

6:18:356:18:39

test. I was struck by the lady for

Liverpool Riverside who mentioned

6:18:396:18:44

this was first raised in the House

in 1978 when I was for years old. I

6:18:446:18:50

hope we can achieve closure before

it's that long again. Let me be

6:18:506:18:57

crystal clear, the Government's

priority is and always will be, and

6:18:576:19:05

the Secretary of State has done more

than most, the safety of NHS

6:19:056:19:08

patients. I have listened to

patients, their families,

6:19:086:19:13

parliamentarians on the matter of

hormonal pregnancy tests over many

6:19:136:19:18

years and will continue to do this

over the coming weeks and months.

6:19:186:19:22

Time and again during today's debate

the Manchester -- member for

6:19:226:19:31

Manchester Withington said we have

heard about a lack of trust and

6:19:316:19:35

faith in this process, contrary to

the words from my honourable friend

6:19:356:19:43

from Mid Norfolk. That troubles me

sullenly be clear, we have ruled out

6:19:436:19:47

no options at this time. The report

of the group published on the 15th

6:19:476:19:55

of November I think represents the

culmination of rigorous piece of

6:19:556:20:01

scientific work by a group of

experts, all well respected in their

6:20:016:20:05

field, and it is the most exhaustive

investigation of the issue

6:20:056:20:10

undertaken to date. However it is

clear to me that many members and

6:20:106:20:15

families they speak for have

concerns about this issue. We are as

6:20:156:20:19

I said committed to listening to

that and acting upon that. While we

6:20:196:20:24

differ on many points, there are

surely a couple of things on which

6:20:246:20:27

we can agree at the outset. The

first is the safety of mothers and

6:20:276:20:32

unborn children is to be paramount.

The second is standards in science

6:20:326:20:38

and regulation have changed beyond

all recognition in the last 50

6:20:386:20:41

years. My honourable friend and the

lady who speaks the Liverpool

6:20:416:20:54

Riverside mentioned about drugs

being handed out through the desk

6:20:546:20:58

drawer of GPs and it says that on

page seven at the start of the

6:20:586:21:07

report and the footnote says today

there are strict requirements of the

6:21:076:21:12

supply of free samples of medicines.

That's why I say medicine science

6:21:126:21:21

and regulation and prescribing has

changed hugely in the last 50 years.

6:21:216:21:25

It is imperative to me we continue

to seek improvement in this area,

6:21:256:21:31

that's why we have tasked the HRA

with implementation. These are

6:21:316:21:41

valuable initiatives that should

permanently benefit the millions of

6:21:416:21:47

women who use medicines in

pregnancy. My right honourable

6:21:476:21:55

friend from Hemel Hempstead

mentioned Mr Debrett. I apologise if

6:21:556:22:03

he feels his name has been used

inappropriately. He was invited as

6:22:036:22:08

an advocate for families and made a

strong contribution throughout so

6:22:086:22:13

let me be clear we thank him for his

contribution. His campaign with wide

6:22:136:22:19

respect across our country and the

world under that will continue to be

6:22:196:22:22

the case, I know. The right

honourable gentleman who introduced

6:22:226:22:27

the debate spoke about the name of

the inquiry. I'm told the group were

6:22:276:22:34

reminded from the start they have

not been set up as a statutory

6:22:346:22:38

inquiry as an expert group of

commission on human medicines. It

6:22:386:22:46

was important to be clear on this at

the start as formal inquiries have a

6:22:466:22:51

different structure and statutory

powers. I don't think there was an

6:22:516:22:55

inconsistency there but we can

continue that debate. Almost all

6:22:556:23:00

speakers have spoken about the terms

of reference set out, the causal

6:23:006:23:05

versus the possible. The terms of

reference set out the scope of the

6:23:056:23:09

review and I don't believe they

changed. It was endorsed in December

6:23:096:23:15

2014, a few weeks after the last

debate and confirmed by the Member

6:23:156:23:19

for Mid Norfolk. In the same letter

the all-party group was informed,

6:23:196:23:25

and I quote, it is important to

review the scientific evidence to

6:23:256:23:29

establish if there is any causal

association between the use of HPTs

6:23:296:23:35

and subsequent birth defects in the

child. It is explicit and integral

6:23:356:23:42

to see whether the medicine is

actually responsible for causing the

6:23:426:23:46

harm rather than simply being

associated with it. The Member for

6:23:466:23:51

Manchester Withington and others

mention changes to the expert group

6:23:516:23:55

report. I know many members are

concerned about differences in the

6:23:556:23:59

draft and final report especially

the removal of the sentence which

6:23:596:24:03

said limitations of the methodology

at the time and relative scarcity of

6:24:036:24:07

the evidence means it's not possible

to reach a definitive conclusion.

6:24:076:24:11

This sentence was followed

immediately by the group's overall

6:24:116:24:15

finding that the available

scientific evidence does not support

6:24:156:24:21

a causal association between the use

of HPTs such as Primodos and adverse

6:24:216:24:25

outcomes. The ChM rightly considered

the two sentences together to be

6:24:256:24:30

misleading and advise the report be

revised. The scientific conclusion

6:24:306:24:37

is set out in the report. The Member

for Manchester Withington and others

6:24:376:24:45

spoke about historic actions.

Ministers always being clear, Mr

6:24:456:24:51

Deputy Speaker, the issues of

historic process were outside the

6:24:516:24:55

scope of this review because their

first needed to be clarity on

6:24:556:24:58

whether there might be a link

between HPTs and birth defects. This

6:24:586:25:03

point was made by the much mentioned

member for Mid Norfolk when he said

6:25:036:25:10

the review will include a chronology

of events but the expert working

6:25:106:25:15

group will not be asked for its

advice on systemic or regulatory

6:25:156:25:19

failures. Other members have said

that should be different, and as I

6:25:196:25:29

have said I am listening, but the

reporter that my desk inherited this

6:25:296:25:33

summer hard that is its guidance and

that's what I inherited. -- had

6:25:336:25:42

that. It wasn't set up to look at

most historical actions and whether

6:25:426:25:48

it should or not is a matter for

debate. The lady for maker field

6:25:486:25:53

mentioned the transparency issue and

the gagging order. I said this

6:25:536:26:00

during the urgent question, I can

assure the House that being asked to

6:26:006:26:06

sign a confidentiality undertaking,

Mrs Lynam who is here today, was not

6:26:066:26:11

in anyway treated differently to

other panel members. This is

6:26:116:26:15

standard procedure so discussions

can be held freely without running

6:26:156:26:19

commentary on God forbid the media.

Despite being an observer throughout

6:26:196:26:23

the view, Mrs Lynam was invited to

speak after every agenda item. The

6:26:236:26:31

lady for Bolton South East mentioned

evidence from Doctor Dean and the

6:26:316:26:36

Royal College of General

practitioners that was ignored, the

6:26:366:26:39

interaction between Doctor Dean and

the RCGP are fully described in the

6:26:396:26:42

annex to the report and I will come

onto that in a second before I

6:26:426:26:48

close. My honourable friend the

Member for Eastleigh and the Member

6:26:486:26:53

for Livingston mentioned the way the

interaction of the family. I was

6:26:536:26:59

clear last time I was at the

dispatch box on the subject that

6:26:596:27:02

families were not treated with the

respect and dignity I would expect

6:27:026:27:06

as the Minister for a body I am

responsible for. I have made it very

6:27:066:27:10

clear to them and asked them to

report back to me as to how they

6:27:106:27:13

will do it better next time, and I

look forward to seeing that. I

6:27:136:27:20

mentioned about the transparency

issue. Minutes to the meetings and

6:27:206:27:24

declarations of interest were

published last week. Annexes to the

6:27:246:27:29

report and all studies by Shearing

have been published today. I'm going

6:27:296:27:45

to close there and give the sponsor

of the debate chance to close. I

6:27:456:27:50

thank members for their

contributions, nothing is off the

6:27:506:27:53

table and I am listening.

And I

thank everybody for giving up

6:27:536:27:58

Thursday in their constituencies to

be here. I have been praised

6:27:586:28:03

extensively for starting this debate

but could have -- not have done it

6:28:036:28:10

without the all Parliamentary group.

Can I say on behalf of my

6:28:106:28:13

constituents whose lives were

changed, blighted, completely

6:28:136:28:17

wrecked by Primodos, as we've heard

across the House today, I have heard

6:28:176:28:24

the Minister say nothing is ruled

out and I'm willing to listen, and

6:28:246:28:28

I'm pleased because he will have to

listen an awful lot. If this

6:28:286:28:32

document is still on his desk and

being used as a way to go forward,

6:28:326:28:36

I'm afraid that is an insult to the

victims. It was described to me in a

6:28:366:28:41

way which I cannot repeat in the

House today, but a better way of

6:28:416:28:47

describing it was crap. It was

fundamentally flawed and doesn't do

6:28:476:28:52

what it says on the tin when the

Minister asked for it to be done.

6:28:526:28:55

The department can move on and talk

and move on. There has to be an

6:28:556:29:01

independent public inquiry and if

that inquiry decides it needs

6:29:016:29:04

further evidence, it needs to have

the financed to do that, and they

6:29:046:29:09

will be evidence coming forward in

the next couple of days, because the

6:29:096:29:11

victims are the most important

people in what we have been

6:29:116:29:17

discussing today. If we forget that,

we forget why we are here, why the

6:29:176:29:22

NHS has the greatest reputation in

the world, Shearing's is a great

6:29:226:29:29

brand but their reputation has been

damaged.

In order, the debate stands

6:29:296:29:34

adjourned.

6:29:346:29:46

I'm ready when you are.

Thank you

very much Deputy Speaker for

6:29:466:29:55

granting me this time and imported

adjournment.

I know this government

6:29:556:30:01

despite although warm words and up

but did you do not care for the NHS,

6:30:016:30:05

the very principle and assets of a

simple it is not sit well with the

6:30:056:30:10

ideologically driven privatisation

agenda. We should judge the

6:30:106:30:15

Government cut them into NHS by

their actions. The shambolic

6:30:156:30:18

top-down regularization that began

in 2012, has been followed by

6:30:186:30:25

increasing competition increased

privatisation, and now the

6:30:256:30:30

introduction of sustainability and

transformation plans and accountable

6:30:306:30:33

K organisations, that are heralding

the end of our NHS. Mr Deputy

6:30:336:30:39

Speaker, that does not tie what

works,. The Government starts NHS

6:30:396:30:44

and refuses to it have collaborative

structures to, but a long-term

6:30:446:30:51

sustainable plan for properly

financing our NHS. The event will

6:30:516:30:57

force areas in England to come up

with plans for deficiencies to

6:30:576:31:01

compensate for the governments own

neglectful incompetence. As a local

6:31:016:31:07

areas grapple with these cuts,

services are inevitably transferred

6:31:076:31:10

from one hospital to another. The

received in hospital cannot cope

6:31:106:31:18

they buckle under strain and close

and private health care takes over.

6:31:186:31:24

In the South Shields, the

sustainability and transformation

6:31:246:31:26

plans have been brought in under the

guise of a path to excellence. And

6:31:266:31:31

we been placed into an arbitrary

created boundary footprint area. By

6:31:316:31:40

2021, the health or social care

system and a footprint area, is

6:31:406:31:45

projected to be £960 million short

of the funds it needs to balance its

6:31:456:31:50

books, while maintaining the same

level of care for patients. Make no

6:31:506:31:55

mistake, these plans are about cuts.

They are nothing to do with

6:31:556:32:00

transforming our NHS for the better,

the NHS has been set and an

6:32:006:32:04

impossible task by the Government

and the endgame is to see it in

6:32:046:32:07

private hands. Over a year ago, stop

the tie-dye hospital trust

6:32:076:32:14

management team merged. And work

began in earnest formulating the

6:32:146:32:19

Government led to plans by local

clinical commission groups. Would

6:32:196:32:23

look after all of the health

services in our area, along with the

6:32:236:32:26

hospital trust. The plans are

scrutinised by a joint scrutiny

6:32:266:32:32

committee of South Tyneside and a

Sunderland Council as well as the

6:32:326:32:37

clinical commission group of being

accountable to the respective local

6:32:376:32:40

authorities health and well-being

boards. The plans are officially

6:32:406:32:45

supposed to be targeted and

improving health care. By reality,

6:32:456:32:49

people in Shields and right across

England are discovering that these

6:32:496:32:53

plants are actually about the

biggest programme ever from any

6:32:536:32:57

government to shut down the NHS and

for once and for all. Alongside

6:32:576:33:02

supposedly improving health and

care, Health Secretary is endorsing

6:33:026:33:07

plans for cuts of up to 5 billion in

the NHS, this is a man who wrote

6:33:076:33:12

about how to achieve full

privatisation of the NHS who got the

6:33:126:33:15

Chancellor and the last budget to

give to put £6 billion to help embed

6:33:156:33:20

the sustainability and

transformation plans. In other

6:33:206:33:24

words, using government and taxpayer

money to close down a local

6:33:246:33:27

hospitals. I have remained firm in

my view, despite many people

6:33:276:33:33

denouncing me and other campaigners,

and scaremongering and from the day

6:33:336:33:38

the two teams merged, the plough was

to downgrade South the tie-dye

6:33:386:33:42

hospital and move all of our

services to Sunderland. I take no

6:33:426:33:48

pleasure here being right, when the

first days of the consultation was

6:33:486:33:52

launched, we were advised that the

preferred option of the clinical

6:33:526:33:57

teams was to move them to

Sunderland. Not only does have a

6:33:576:34:02

preferred option fly in the face of

them, it confirmed for auto of us

6:34:026:34:07

what we expected, when in October

last year without any public

6:34:076:34:10

consultation at all, our unit was

closed and moved to Sunderland with

6:34:106:34:15

a promise that this was a temporary

measure due to staff challenges.

6:34:156:34:20

There currently no options on the

table for that unit to come back

6:34:206:34:23

South Tyneside. In relation to

maternity and a women's analogical

6:34:236:34:30

services and children and young

people urgent, and emergency

6:34:306:34:35

paediatrics, all of the options

presented between drastic reduction

6:34:356:34:40

in provision in particular over a

two services for South Tyneside.

6:34:406:34:45

Yet, and October, our accident and

emergency inclusive of paediatrics,

6:34:456:34:49

was found to be the second-best in

the country, and one of the few

6:34:496:34:54

hospitals which has achieved the

four-hour waiting time target. I

6:34:546:34:59

have been consistent in rejecting

this consultation. I refuse to

6:34:596:35:03

accept that a consultation

predicated on a massive cut agenda

6:35:036:35:08

against a backdrop of additional

cuts to social care, and other

6:35:086:35:12

services that will do anything at

talk to improve the health and care

6:35:126:35:15

that people and care that people in

South Tyneside received. In fact, it

6:35:156:35:19

would do quite the opposite. But I

am not alone in this view. The trust

6:35:196:35:25

and the clinical commissioning group

are stating the proposals before us,

6:35:256:35:29

where formulated by and are

supported by clinicians and staff at

6:35:296:35:32

our hospital. Yet, many of these

clinicians and staff have contacted

6:35:326:35:37

me and provided me with evidence to

show that they have in fact been

6:35:376:35:41

actively blocked out of formulating

his proposals. How on earth can the

6:35:416:35:46

public be expected to trust a

consultation that raises such a

6:35:466:35:51

serious questions around

transparency and due process and has

6:35:516:35:55

lacked integrity from the outset? I

have been trying to get my local

6:35:556:36:02

authority to revert this whole

shambolic consultation to the

6:36:026:36:05

Secretary of State so the smoke

screen can be looked at and

6:36:056:36:08

conductor properly with due process.

So far, to the abject disappointment

6:36:086:36:14

of the my constituents, this has not

happened. The constituents of also

6:36:146:36:18

raised with me, their concerns over

potential conflicts of interest. Our

6:36:186:36:26

Council leader has appeared

nonexecutive director of the trust

6:36:266:36:29

and chairs of the health and

well-being board, the chair of this

6:36:296:36:32

ECG is the vice chair of the health

and well-being board in a practise

6:36:326:36:36

in GP. On the 30th of November, a

press release was issued advising

6:36:366:36:42

that the special care baby unit was

closing with immediate effect. A

6:36:426:36:49

closure that coincidentally sits

neatly with all of the proposed

6:36:496:36:52

options are put forward from the CCT

and the trust. The reason given was

6:36:526:36:58

staffing issues. The safety and

well-being of babies and parents

6:36:586:37:01

should of course be a priority, but

he that followed indicate that this

6:37:016:37:06

is yet another cynical development

of the managed decline of South

6:37:066:37:10

Tyneside hospital. On the 3rd of

December, after the local media had

6:37:106:37:15

been advised staff from the

maternity unit were invited to a

6:37:156:37:19

meeting to be told that from 8am the

following morning the maternity unit

6:37:196:37:23

will be closing due to staffing

issues. This was after the trust has

6:37:236:37:29

discussed matters with regional

groups and not local was and not

6:37:296:37:31

staff. We have now restate states --

states where normal babies are being

6:37:316:37:38

born at a South Tyneside, yet the

maternity unit has a full couple met

6:37:386:37:43

the staff present as it has been

wedded with fully SAP operational.

6:37:436:37:48

The staff present at the trust with

a working system to keep the unit

6:37:486:37:52

delivering so there is no reason to

why the closure is continuing. Right

6:37:526:37:57

now, these trained professional and

dedicated midwives is that

6:37:576:38:00

delivering babies, are doing admin,

transferring mums to neighbouring

6:38:006:38:04

hospitals. I have already been

advised of expectant mothers to be

6:38:046:38:11

having to find on average £40 for

each round-trip journey to other

6:38:116:38:15

hospitals in the region. When they

thought they were due to deliver.

6:38:156:38:19

One woman was sent home after being

told she was not the labour by a

6:38:196:38:24

neighbouring hospital, once home and

I very much in labour, she ended up

6:38:246:38:28

having a home birth as she simply

could not afford another taxi when

6:38:286:38:31

the ambulance waiting times were too

long. The situation is completely

6:38:316:38:37

dangerous and unsustainable for my

constituents. And it takes away a

6:38:376:38:41

woman's right on how to choose where

she has birth. From day one of this

6:38:416:38:47

process, there is one version of

events from the trust and clinical

6:38:476:38:50

commissioning group, but then their

evidence and facts from the

6:38:506:38:53

clinicians and other staff at the

hospital to tell otherwise.

6:38:536:38:57

Clinicians and staff who are

dedicating hard work and

6:38:576:39:00

professionalism are being denigrated

and more out produced under revealed

6:39:006:39:05

threat that if they speak with her

-- meet the risk losing jobs. They

6:39:056:39:11

remained multitude of unanswered

questions, questions that are

6:39:116:39:14

critical to the whole process and

have been repeatedly asked. What

6:39:146:39:20

capacity do Sunderland hospital

habit to take the extra patience and

6:39:206:39:23

from South Tyneside? What is going

to happen to the staff at South

6:39:236:39:27

Tyneside? What transport arrangement

will be put in place bearing in mind

6:39:276:39:32

we are one of the lowest areas of

car ownership in the entire country?

6:39:326:39:38

Does the Northeast Ambulance Service

have the additional capacity to

6:39:386:39:42

respond to the increased emergency

demand created by these options? And

6:39:426:39:47

what are the proposals for the

imminent next faces of the

6:39:476:39:50

consultation? Because Mr Deputy

Speaker, this is only phase one of a

6:39:506:39:56

consultation that has another to

basis to go. We cannot continue in a

6:39:566:40:01

situation where those tasks with

providing the very best health care

6:40:016:40:05

scenario for my constituents, are

acting out of that and not promoting

6:40:056:40:11

good faith equitable health care. We

cannot continue in a situation where

6:40:116:40:16

Joyce has been removed from my

constituents. Where their health

6:40:166:40:20

needs in fact their lives are deemed

secondary to that of others in the

6:40:206:40:23

region. I am asking here today that

the Minister support the taking of

6:40:236:40:29

serious steps, and that NHS England

a step in and investigate and if

6:40:296:40:34

necessary remove the clinical

commissioning groups powers. And

6:40:346:40:39

that NHS improvement to

investigative action against trust.

6:40:396:40:45

Mr Deputy Speaker, things have

become very nefarious and chills.

6:40:456:40:48

Peace all -- people have

misunderstood me representing Mike

6:40:486:40:52

assiduous and relaying their use and

length accept as personal attack. I

6:40:526:40:56

would like to remind those who have

tried to silence me and stated

6:40:566:41:00

publicly that I am a liar and I put

myself forward for public office not

6:41:006:41:05

to cause and not to bow those to

power but to represent the people as

6:41:056:41:12

shields no matter how uncomfortable

for some that may be. Because an

6:41:126:41:16

amount of bytes or bullying will

stop me from doing the job that I

6:41:166:41:20

was elected and entrusted to do. I

want to and by paying tribute to the

6:41:206:41:26

amazing staff and our hospital, and

those in South Tyneside who have

6:41:266:41:31

wholeheartedly join the fight to

save our hospital. But in

6:41:316:41:37

particular, Roger and Gemma who have

worked tirelessly eating the safe to

6:41:376:41:40

say the campaign, and Art

crowdfunding to raise money for

6:41:406:41:46

potential judicial review. Please,

if anyone is listening, donate and

6:41:466:41:52

help us, because this process does

not begin and end with our hospital.

6:41:526:41:56

This government is coming for our

entire NHS.

Thank you very much

6:41:566:42:05

Deputy Speaker, I would like to

start by congratulating the

6:42:056:42:07

honourable lady on securing this

debate. On the topic of the future

6:42:076:42:15

of South Tyneside hospital, and I

pay tribute to her emotion in which

6:42:156:42:24

she showed standing up for her

constituents. Although I have to say

6:42:246:42:28

I was disappointed by the tone that

she adopted particularly at the

6:42:286:42:31

start of her remarks, and frankly

conspiracy that she is alleging

6:42:316:42:38

exists. To endeavour to use the case

of South Tyneside to progress with a

6:42:386:42:48

scaremongering, which will

undoubtedly unlined local residents

6:42:486:42:50

in her area by trying to paint this

as some sort of plot towards the

6:42:506:42:58

privatisation of the health service

which there is not a shred of

6:42:586:43:01

evidence at all. And I think that

rather undermined the force of her

6:43:016:43:07

quite proper consent for her

constituents and I'm sorry that she

6:43:076:43:11

chose to characterize it in that

way. But I do welcome her support

6:43:116:43:16

for the staff in her hospital, and I

joined her in congratulating them

6:43:166:43:25

for the work that are doing, because

despite significant precious, South

6:43:256:43:31

Tyneside NHS Foundation Trust, is

performing very well for the vast

6:43:316:43:36

majority of patients under their

care. And she pointed out their

6:43:366:43:43

performance and a and E, which is

above the one of the pew trusts and

6:43:436:43:46

the country to be performing at the

above for our waking time, but that

6:43:466:43:53

is not the only area where the trust

is performing well. There are also

6:43:536:43:57

one of the few trusts meeting all of

the cancer targets across the

6:43:576:44:02

country, the eight targets, and

meeting the referral to treatment

6:44:026:44:07

waiting times which again, is

unusual. At the moment. And meeting

6:44:076:44:14

diagnostic targets so it is one of

the best-performing trusts in the

6:44:146:44:18

country. And for that, she and I are

on the

6:44:186:44:24

, it is the case that the trust and

its neighbouring trust, the City

6:44:246:44:32

Hospital Sunderland and NHS

Foundation Trust formed an alliance

6:44:326:44:34

with recently of the South Tyneside

and Sunderland health care group. It

6:44:346:44:39

is for this reason that the group is

looking at reconfiguration of

6:44:396:44:44

services across the two trusts to

remove unnecessary duplication and

6:44:446:44:50

to improve the sustainability of the

services to ensure that the local

6:44:506:44:58

population's health care needs are

well looked after. Across the range

6:44:586:45:01

of activities. It is quick to make a

bit of progress and then I will give

6:45:016:45:05

way. Ultimately, as if she knows,

any services changes outside of

6:45:056:45:12

Tyneside tenement at a South

Tyneside Hospital will be for local

6:45:126:45:15

health care authorities. All

proposed changes should be based on

6:45:156:45:18

clear evidence that they would

provide better outcomes for

6:45:186:45:23

patients. They should meet the four

tested for service change the vision

6:45:236:45:27

of support from GB commissioners, be

based on clinical evidence,

6:45:276:45:31

demonstrate public and patient

engagement and consider patient

6:45:316:45:33

choice. And, in addition, NHS

England have introduced this year a

6:45:336:45:39

test on the future use of beds,

which requires commissioners to

6:45:396:45:44

assure NHS England that any proposed

reduction is sustainable over the

6:45:446:45:48

longer-term and that keep risks,

such as a staff levels, have

6:45:486:45:51

addressed.

I think that Minister for

giving way. A few moments ago, he

6:45:516:45:58

commented on how both hospitals are

working together to create safe

6:45:586:46:03

health care for both populations,

however, how does it become the

6:46:036:46:07

maternity unit and a special

carriage units with hardly no notice

6:46:076:46:10

et al created that environment?

Surely they are feeling at a task

6:46:106:46:13

they have been handed. -- failing as

of the task.

I will explain to the

6:46:136:46:20

honourable Lady right now the

persisted a fact about why was an

6:46:206:46:26

emergency shutdown on that facility

and I think that the

6:46:266:46:30

characterisation that she has isn't

quite representative of what

6:46:306:46:34

actually happened and I wanted to go

into some detail to reinsure -- to

6:46:346:46:39

try and wish root -- to reassure her

her constituents that they're some

6:46:396:46:43

closer, hopefully temporary and

closer. The hospital suspended...

6:46:436:46:54

High risk of birth due to stopping

pressure. A number of urgency to

6:46:546:46:58

protocols were picked in place to

complement the very slow number of

6:46:586:47:05

high-risk deliveries of the weekend

of the second and 3rd of December.

6:47:056:47:07

Since the 4th of December, all

maternity services have been

6:47:076:47:11

temporarily suspended in South

Tyneside Hospital on patient safety

6:47:116:47:15

grounds. And in taking this

decision, be trusted to do so on

6:47:156:47:19

it's own initiative. It sought

advice from the northern and

6:47:196:47:25

neonatal network and the heads of...

Network for the northeast of

6:47:256:47:28

England. The unanimous clinical

view, with all the evidence

6:47:286:47:33

available to them at that time, was

that the press should be temporarily

6:47:336:47:37

suspended in the interest of the

city of mothers and babies. -- in

6:47:376:47:44

the interests of mothers and babies.

The hospital has staff were been

6:47:446:47:48

affected to a bin has to report for

duty as normal. The staff are

6:47:486:47:51

working with the trust to help the

women affected to assure safe

6:47:516:47:58

alternative arrangements are made.

The trust has been in close contact

6:47:586:48:02

with other neighbouring units and

had overwhelming support from NHS

6:48:026:48:06

partners across the system. Women

have been choosing to deliver in

6:48:066:48:11

Sunderland, Gateshead and in

Newcastle, with the number of women

6:48:116:48:14

opted for a home birth. The trust is

working closely to ensure there is

6:48:146:48:20

an individual plan for each patient

and that there is clear

6:48:206:48:22

communication between the health

care professionals involved within

6:48:226:48:26

their care. The trust aims to reopen

special baby carriage units for low

6:48:266:48:31

risk of births on a safe staffing

level has been established and I

6:48:316:48:35

would like to dwell now, for a few

moments, on the specific stopping

6:48:356:48:40

challenges that have precipitated

this action. The challenging facing

6:48:406:48:47

South Tyneside NHS Foundation Trust,

in terms of safely staffing the

6:48:476:48:51

special care baby unit or something

in which the trust has been

6:48:516:48:54

contending with for many years. This

hasn't just crept up on that. When

6:48:546:49:00

the... Visited in 2015, and raided

the trust's includes ad court...

6:49:006:49:12

Sensitiveness and 15, there have

been a relentless efforts on behalf

6:49:126:49:15

of the trust or by the trust to

mitigate these issues. Regular quirk

6:49:156:49:22

Richmond has taken place for

permanent vacancies in special care

6:49:226:49:27

unit and paediatric emergency care

over the past two years, with the

6:49:276:49:30

latest round taking place only this

month. Contrary to the honourable

6:49:306:49:37

lady's obligations of some

long-standing conspiracy to compel

6:49:376:49:43

the unit to close, I wanted to give

you the facts as I understand that

6:49:436:49:47

in relation to that unit. In recent

months, chronic staff sickness has

6:49:476:49:53

reduced the six full-time equivalent

specialist neonatal workforce in the

6:49:536:49:59

special care units into just four

full-time staff. This has resulted

6:49:596:50:06

in an unsustainable situation with

the remaining nurses working at many

6:50:066:50:09

extra hours each week in order to

ensure there was a safe staffing on

6:50:096:50:15

the unit and one of the four

remaining nurses has that become

6:50:156:50:20

ill, exacerbated by the work

pressures. That has led to

6:50:206:50:25

unsustainable staffing levels to

keep the unit open. It has not been

6:50:256:50:30

possible for the trust, however hard

it has tried, over the last two and

6:50:306:50:33

half years, to Phil B Rhoda and it

has not been -- to fill the

6:50:336:50:39

rotation. Given the specialised

skills required by neonatal nurses

6:50:396:50:45

in the special care baby units. This

decision, although difficult, was

6:50:456:50:51

driven by the very clear clinical

advice that to put first and

6:50:516:50:54

foremost, the safety of others and

babies, but also the health and

6:50:546:50:58

well-being of hospital staff to whom

the trust also owes a duty of care.

6:50:586:51:04

Now, the honourable lady referred to

the consultation that has taken

6:51:046:51:09

place in recent months over the

past.

I think the Minister very much

6:51:096:51:15

for giving way again. I am really

disappointed. I could see he has the

6:51:156:51:20

official wines from the trust, but

did he not listen to what I said? It

6:51:206:51:25

was a regional, not the local groups

that made this decision. The unit is

6:51:256:51:30

now at its full staff complement to

that it has been historically. In

6:51:306:51:34

short, there is no staffing the

problem there by now. Midwives are

6:51:346:51:37

sitting to doing admin work when

they could be delivering babies.

I

6:51:376:51:42

was referring to the special care

baby unit. Where, my understanding,

6:51:426:51:48

the neonatal unit is at staffing

levels where I just described. If

6:51:486:51:54

she has other information, I will

happily go back to the trusted

6:51:546:51:58

tomorrow and ask them whether they

have managed to fill those slots

6:51:586:52:02

because there is no intent to keep

the suspension of the maternity

6:52:026:52:10

unit, for more normal births,

suspended for any longer than is

6:52:106:52:15

necessary. Id. Just going to touch

him one of the other areas that she

6:52:156:52:18

didn't mention specifically, but the

stroke services because a similar

6:52:186:52:26

thing has occurred in terms of

stroke. I would put that into

6:52:266:52:28

context for her to help her

understand why that decision was

6:52:286:52:32

taken. Since December last year,

2016, any patient requiring acute

6:52:326:52:40

care for a stroke has been taken to

Sunderland and this decision was

6:52:406:52:45

taken to ensure patient safety

because South Tyneside also had a

6:52:456:52:50

significant staffing challenge in

its stroke unit. In fact, it had

6:52:506:52:55

only one part time position,

single-handedly, to assess and treat

6:52:556:53:01

incoming stroke patients. The stroke

unit faced significant pressures in

6:53:016:53:06

maintaining a sufficiently staffed

nursing the rotation to support that

6:53:066:53:11

clinician to maintain the safety

required for stroke patients. The

6:53:116:53:15

benefits of centralising a high

acuity stroke care have been shown

6:53:156:53:21

in Manchester and in London and in

other parts of the country where

6:53:216:53:25

reduced mortality in a more

efficient use of resources in a

6:53:256:53:29

better care for patients. Most other

parts of the country have either

6:53:296:53:32

implemented similar changes or have

plans to do so. Centralising stroke

6:53:326:53:37

care to a smaller number of larger

units provides opportunities to

6:53:376:53:41

ensure that there are always the

specialist nurses and doctors

6:53:416:53:45

available to manage patients at all

times and provide access to imaging

6:53:456:53:52

and other investigatory facilities

immediately as they are required.

6:53:526:53:56

So, to give an illustration to what

that means for patients who are at

6:53:566:53:59

the heart of this, across the NHS in

England, 84% of stroke patients,

6:53:596:54:06

patients now spend the majority of

the hospital stay in a specialist

6:54:066:54:09

stroke units compared to 60% in

2010. This has led it to excellent

6:54:096:54:16

progress in the treatment of stroke

over recent years. Over 92% of

6:54:166:54:20

stroke patients across England now

receive a brain scan which in --

6:54:206:54:25

within 12 hours of arriving at

hospital and almost 50% are screened

6:54:256:54:30

within one hour. This is a huge

increment on 2010 when 70% of

6:54:306:54:34

patients waited up to 24 hours for a

scan. The concentration of stroke

6:54:346:54:43

units a specialist has helped save

lives. The workforce challenges

6:54:436:54:46

experienced by South Tyneside are

being proactively addressed in the

6:54:466:54:50

long-term do the path to excellence

programme that she referred to. This

6:54:506:54:55

is a five-year transformation

programme with health care services

6:54:556:54:58

in South Tyneside and the

Sunderland. Localise responsive to

6:54:586:55:00

the North... Of which was so

critical. The public conversation

6:55:006:55:07

for the passage of prop Chris --

passage progress programme ran...

6:55:076:55:14

The areas of service under the

consultation were maternity in

6:55:146:55:18

women's health care services,

including the special baby care

6:55:186:55:20

unit. Stroke care services and...

Before the CCD to make the decision,

6:55:206:55:29

they will consider all the feedback

gathered during the consultation

6:55:296:55:33

from all stakeholders, including

herself and other members of

6:55:336:55:36

Parliament. closet... I was strongly

encourage her to participate in

6:55:366:55:44

that. The CCGs governing body will

be held. For the two CCGs to make

6:55:446:55:55

their decision. They refer to the

same South Tyneside Hospital group

6:55:556:55:59

and am aware this is active in

campaigning against any

6:55:596:56:03

reconfiguration of health care

services between the two hospitals.

6:56:036:56:05

I hope I have helped to clarify to

the honourable lady that no

6:56:056:56:10

decisions will be made on

reconfiguration matters until the

6:56:106:56:13

responses to the path to excellence

has been thoroughly analysed.

I

6:56:136:56:19

think the Minister for giving away,

but his analysis of the save the

6:56:196:56:25

South Tyneside Hospital campaign is

incorrect. We want safe and decent

6:56:256:56:29

health care for people in South

Tyneside. That is what we are

6:56:296:56:33

camping for. Or equitable safe

health care.

Indeed, I'm sure that

6:56:336:56:37

is the objective and that's also the

objective of the trusted to ensure

6:56:376:56:42

that there is sustainable, high

quality services available to the of

6:56:426:56:46

both areas served by both hospitals.

The trusted now faces a challenging

6:56:466:56:54

task in ensuring that two hospitals

trusts do, to this process, the path

6:56:546:57:03

to excellence, remove any dedication

which is unnecessary between the two

6:57:036:57:07

sides. And in proof sustainability

as a set. It is important that the

6:57:076:57:13

trust work well together and with

the local community and with her

6:57:136:57:17

commissioning groups to ensure that

any plans that they have a community

6:57:176:57:20

-- are communicated clearly to local

populations. The honourable lady

6:57:206:57:27

says it is not happening, but... It

is important to engage the

6:57:276:57:33

communities centre that will be

watching the debate and I'm sure

6:57:336:57:35

there will be taking note of the

Commons about she is making it am

6:57:356:57:40

making and there should be public

engagement and hopefully that will

6:57:406:57:45

continue up until the decision of

the CCGs in February. I will

6:57:456:57:50

conclude by saying, Mr Deputy

Speaker, that it is incumbent on all

6:57:506:57:54

of us who represent our local

communities to get engaged, as she

6:57:546:57:58

is doing with her campaign group.

But to get engaged with the people

6:57:586:58:03

who are responsible for making these

decisions who are the local NHS in

6:58:036:58:07

her area. She indicates she is

engaged with them and I am pleased

6:58:076:58:11

to hear it and I would encourage her

to encourage all other MPs to get

6:58:116:58:15

engaged in a constructive way, to

try and find the best solution for

6:58:156:58:20

the local residents and one in which

abuts safety at the top of the list.

6:58:206:58:26

This is adjourned. The ayes have it.

Order, order.

6:58:266:58:33

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