Browse content similar to 21/12/2017. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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Middle East? Mr Speaker, I think all
members would condemn the sort of | 0:00:00 | 0:00:00 | |
violence the honourable gentleman
talks about and I do encourage him | 0:00:00 | 0:00:03 | |
to seek an adjournment debate. Thank
you. Order. Statements, the Leader | 0:00:03 | 0:00:11 | |
of the House. The Leader of the
House, Andrea Leadsom. In advance of | 0:00:11 | 0:00:20 | |
my statement, may I apologise it is
a little long but I do want to give | 0:00:20 | 0:00:23 | |
a full account to the House. | 0:00:23 | 0:00:31 | |
To address reports of bullying in
Parliament. Recognising that | 0:00:31 | 0:00:41 | |
Parliament can and must set a good
example. In her letter to you, Mr | 0:00:41 | 0:00:46 | |
Speaker, the Prime Minister made
clear the need for a new grievance | 0:00:46 | 0:00:51 | |
procedure and a cross-party working
group on an complaints policy has | 0:00:51 | 0:00:56 | |
been working hard over the last six
weeks to consider evidence and draw | 0:00:56 | 0:01:00 | |
up recommendations for new
procedures. Good progress has been | 0:01:00 | 0:01:03 | |
made. And during recess there'll be
further discussion within the | 0:01:03 | 0:01:08 | |
parties and amongst the staff bodies
in order for a fuller report to be | 0:01:08 | 0:01:12 | |
made in the New Year. There are many
examples of good employers and | 0:01:12 | 0:01:18 | |
professional working practises
across Parliament. What we seek to | 0:01:18 | 0:01:21 | |
do is make sure that this is the
case for all. So the working group, | 0:01:21 | 0:01:26 | |
chaired by myself on behalf of the
Prime Minister, has been made up of | 0:01:26 | 0:01:30 | |
two colleagues from Labour and one
from the national Scottish, the DUP, | 0:01:30 | 0:01:36 | |
Plaid Cymru and the Green Party,
plus the Leader of the House of | 0:01:36 | 0:01:41 | |
Commons and the convener from the
other place. We have three staff | 0:01:41 | 0:01:47 | |
members representing Maps unite and
NUJ. They have ensured that staff | 0:01:47 | 0:01:54 | |
voices have been heard loudly. We
have been supported by Cabinet | 0:01:54 | 0:01:58 | |
Office and parliamentary staff,
including the work of jus teen | 0:01:58 | 0:02:05 | |
Howell and Mr Mott, specialist. I am
aware of the active interest that a | 0:02:05 | 0:02:14 | |
number of colleagues have taken. For
them it is a personal campaign to | 0:02:14 | 0:02:18 | |
impro-ve the experience of those
working here. I thank them for | 0:02:18 | 0:02:21 | |
discussing their thoughts with me,
particularly the honourable members | 0:02:21 | 0:02:27 | |
for Luton South and my honourable
friends the members for Woking and | 0:02:27 | 0:02:33 | |
basing stoke. We have heard from a
wide range of professionals, both in | 0:02:33 | 0:02:39 | |
person and written submissions.
These include the speakers of both | 0:02:39 | 0:02:44 | |
Houses, Professor Childs, Rape
Crisis, the Clarks of both houses, | 0:02:44 | 0:02:49 | |
ACAS, the parliamentary commissions
for standards and the chair of the | 0:02:49 | 0:02:52 | |
Committee on Standards in Public
Life, Unite, legal experts from the | 0:02:52 | 0:02:59 | |
business world and Health assured.
The group heard from staff on their | 0:02:59 | 0:03:03 | |
views on the churl in Parliament and
were grateful to those who spoke | 0:03:03 | 0:03:07 | |
about their experiences. Or provide
pd anonymous submissions. The group | 0:03:07 | 0:03:14 | |
identified three guiding principals.
Firstly, Parliament requires an | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
independent process must be separate
from the political channels. | 0:03:18 | 0:03:22 | |
Secondly, much evidence was taken
that claims of sexual harassment | 0:03:22 | 0:03:26 | |
must be dealt with separately from
claims of bullying and other types | 0:03:26 | 0:03:30 | |
of harassment. Structures alone will
not change the culture in | 0:03:30 | 0:03:34 | |
Parliament. Other steps are also
needed, including crucially an HR | 0:03:34 | 0:03:39 | |
service for the staff employed by
members and an expansion of training | 0:03:39 | 0:03:44 | |
provision. As a result of the work
of the group, and with the support | 0:03:44 | 0:03:47 | |
of the speaker and the commission,
there are a number of immediate | 0:03:47 | 0:03:51 | |
measures which have been put in
place to increase the level of | 0:03:51 | 0:03:54 | |
support to staff across the estate T
firstly, there would be a new | 0:03:54 | 0:03:59 | |
interim provision of HR support and
guidance for the staff of members | 0:03:59 | 0:04:04 | |
beginning after the recess while
consideration is given to the need | 0:04:04 | 0:04:07 | |
for a broader HR service. HR support
will also be available to members | 0:04:07 | 0:04:12 | |
staff working on the parliamentary
estate in squishtsy officers and | 0:04:12 | 0:04:17 | |
those -- constituency offices and
those collectively employed by the | 0:04:17 | 0:04:21 | |
parties. In addition new training
will be available, addressing a | 0:04:21 | 0:04:25 | |
range of needs identified by the
working group. This is in addition | 0:04:25 | 0:04:30 | |
to the announced expanded heel
assured helpline made available to | 0:04:30 | 0:04:33 | |
members of staff across both Houses
and other pass-holders across the | 0:04:33 | 0:04:38 | |
estate. As you yourself requested
the individual party policies and | 0:04:38 | 0:04:44 | |
procedures for dealing bullying and
harassment have been published on | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
line. A great deal has been
achieved. We also have a programme | 0:04:47 | 0:04:52 | |
of work planned in to the New Year.
The working group has clearly | 0:04:52 | 0:04:56 | |
identified the need for new policies
and procedures to tackle bullying | 0:04:56 | 0:05:01 | |
and harassment, including sexual,
which should be available to staff | 0:05:01 | 0:05:04 | |
and members across the estate, which
must be independence independent of | 0:05:04 | 0:05:08 | |
the political parties. The proposals
which follow are the outcome of | 0:05:08 | 0:05:12 | |
substantial evidence taken by the
working group. There is strong | 0:05:12 | 0:05:14 | |
support from its members. It is the
case, however, that further work, | 0:05:14 | 0:05:19 | |
evidence gathering and consultation
will be required before we can put | 0:05:19 | 0:05:23 | |
new processes in place. They must
attract the full support and | 0:05:23 | 0:05:27 | |
confidence of staff, MPs and peers
across Parliament. Some of the new | 0:05:27 | 0:05:33 | |
policies that are under
consideration are a new behaviour | 0:05:33 | 0:05:37 | |
code to be consulted on, which would
apply to all those who were in or | 0:05:37 | 0:05:43 | |
for Parliament, including members,
peers and staff, wherever they are | 0:05:43 | 0:05:45 | |
work. This behaviour code could sit
alongside the existing parliamentary | 0:05:45 | 0:05:50 | |
codes of conduct, which may require
amendment. The procurement of a new | 0:05:50 | 0:05:59 | |
independent sexual service to
provide a helpline and counselling, | 0:05:59 | 0:06:02 | |
help and support to those wishing to
make disclosures. It would provide | 0:06:02 | 0:06:11 | |
support to claimants, to those
including. To pursue a criminal | 0:06:11 | 0:06:17 | |
justice route, or if they did not
wish to go to the police then | 0:06:17 | 0:06:22 | |
alternative strictly confidential
resupport. The working group has | 0:06:22 | 0:06:25 | |
taken evidence on the need for an
independent mediation service to | 0:06:25 | 0:06:31 | |
provide a helpline, counselling and
investigation into incidents of | 0:06:31 | 0:06:34 | |
bullying and intimidation. Finally,
we discussed sanctions. These will | 0:06:34 | 0:06:39 | |
differ according to the server
severity of the grievance and to | 0:06:39 | 0:06:45 | |
different individuals. For lower
level complaints the range of | 0:06:45 | 0:06:50 | |
sanctions could include training
covering bullying and harassment, a | 0:06:50 | 0:06:53 | |
full apolicy, as well as a review of
the policy past. Further work needs | 0:06:53 | 0:06:59 | |
to be carried out to ensure
sanctions are appropriate, fair and | 0:06:59 | 0:07:02 | |
enforcible. The functions of both
the parliamentary Commissioner for | 0:07:02 | 0:07:06 | |
Standards and the standards
committee may need to be | 0:07:06 | 0:07:09 | |
strengthened and reviewed to ensure
fair representation and | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
confidentiality. Considerable
further work needs to be carried out | 0:07:13 | 0:07:18 | |
before conclusions can be drawn. And
of course any changes to standing | 0:07:18 | 0:07:23 | |
orders, or to the Code of Conduct
would require decisions by the | 0:07:23 | 0:07:26 | |
House. Mr Speaker, the working
groups' discussions have been | 0:07:26 | 0:07:31 | |
underpinned by a persistent theme,
that whilst there are many examples | 0:07:31 | 0:07:36 | |
of excellent employers and working
relationships here, there is a real | 0:07:36 | 0:07:40 | |
need to improve the overall
workplace culture of Parliament. One | 0:07:40 | 0:07:44 | |
of the routes to this is proper
independent HR support for member | 0:07:44 | 0:07:50 | |
staff to minimise the problem of con
tractual disputes. We need to work | 0:07:50 | 0:07:56 | |
with the House authorities and staff
to consider the best and most | 0:07:56 | 0:07:59 | |
appropriate way of delivering this
in the long-term. We also received a | 0:07:59 | 0:08:03 | |
great deal of evidence on the need
for voluntary and mandatory training | 0:08:03 | 0:08:08 | |
for staff and employers. This would
uncloud proper induction courses by | 0:08:08 | 0:08:12 | |
staff employed by members. Whilst
this is not within the terms of | 0:08:12 | 0:08:16 | |
reference for the working group, it
was made clear that enabling better | 0:08:16 | 0:08:23 | |
support for better relationships
could significantly improve the | 0:08:23 | 0:08:26 | |
working atmosphere and a
professional culture. The working | 0:08:26 | 0:08:29 | |
group will consider the evidence
further. Mr Speaker, we were | 0:08:29 | 0:08:32 | |
grateful for your own contribution
to the working group, where you made | 0:08:32 | 0:08:37 | |
clear that the House of Commons
commission stands ready to do what | 0:08:37 | 0:08:40 | |
it needs to do to respond to any
proposal from the working group, | 0:08:40 | 0:08:44 | |
providing that the proposal combines
independence and transparency. We | 0:08:44 | 0:08:48 | |
recognise both the need for swift
progress and also the need for | 0:08:48 | 0:08:53 | |
careful consideration before taking
action. Our next steps, therefore, | 0:08:53 | 0:08:57 | |
are crucial. The working group will
reconvene after recess to agree how | 0:08:57 | 0:09:02 | |
the work can progress. We will look
to closely at the policies we have | 0:09:02 | 0:09:06 | |
identified as needing further work
and consultation and begin to take | 0:09:06 | 0:09:09 | |
further advice and evidence. There
have been a number of proposals | 0:09:09 | 0:09:12 | |
about how to take our work forward.
These range from appointing a | 0:09:12 | 0:09:18 | |
special Select Committee to
maintaining a members and staff | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
cross members committee. We will
consider all ideas carefully. I want | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
to make it clear that the work of
the existing group is on going for | 0:09:25 | 0:09:29 | |
the time being. We will continue to
involve staff, peers and MPs | 0:09:29 | 0:09:33 | |
collectively, each step of the way.
Excellent progress has been made in | 0:09:33 | 0:09:37 | |
a short space of time, Mr Speaker. I
want to express my gratitude for the | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
strong commitment shown by members
of the working group and for the | 0:09:41 | 0:09:45 | |
expertise provided by our specialist
advisers. Finally, Mr Speaker, I | 0:09:45 | 0:09:50 | |
will say this, the working group
formed to bring about change and I | 0:09:50 | 0:09:54 | |
recognise that change is not always
easy, particularly somewhere with | 0:09:54 | 0:10:00 | |
such long-standing tro decisions and
customs where we live and work in | 0:10:00 | 0:10:03 | |
the full glare of the media
spotlight. But this cannot be an | 0:10:03 | 0:10:07 | |
excuse. We should not rest until
everyone working in Parliament can | 0:10:07 | 0:10:11 | |
feel safe, valued and respected. We
have a chance now to get this right. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
For everyone on the parliamentary
estate, including staff, MPs and | 0:10:16 | 0:10:20 | |
peers, and I hope to bring the
working group's final proposals here | 0:10:20 | 0:10:24 | |
in the New Year. Thank you. | 0:10:24 | 0:10:27 | |
Can I thank the leader of the House
for her leadership of the group and | 0:10:29 | 0:10:35 | |
thank all honourable members.
Everyone who took time to submit | 0:10:35 | 0:10:39 | |
evidence and/or ral evidence,
including you, Mr Speaker, giving up | 0:10:39 | 0:10:43 | |
time to attend the hearings. And
commitment by the speaker of both | 0:10:43 | 0:10:48 | |
Houses is therefore there. Senior
Clarks of both Houses were on hand | 0:10:48 | 0:10:52 | |
for discussion and those who started
the secretary tarry yacht, you | 0:10:52 | 0:10:58 | |
responded magnificently trying to
make sense of all our discussions. | 0:10:58 | 0:11:02 | |
With you represented what is great
about the work ethic in the House. I | 0:11:02 | 0:11:14 | |
would like I would like to thank all
those who attended in addition to | 0:11:14 | 0:11:25 | |
all the work they do currently for
members. The working party was set | 0:11:25 | 0:11:28 | |
up by the Government with other
party leaders in the wake of reports | 0:11:28 | 0:11:33 | |
of sexual harassment in a variety of
situations. I want to make the | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
position of the opposition very,
very clear. I do not think it is | 0:11:37 | 0:11:39 | |
acceptable that the position of the
opposition Labour Party was miss | 0:11:39 | 0:11:43 | |
represented in the press at the
weekend. There is a report but it is | 0:11:43 | 0:11:47 | |
still a draft report and it should
go out to consultation. Normally the | 0:11:47 | 0:11:51 | |
report is agreed and after that the
summary can be published. But Mr | 0:11:51 | 0:11:57 | |
Speaker, the group sat for over four
hours on one day and we came up with | 0:11:57 | 0:12:02 | |
some good solutions, good, creative
solutions, which the leader has, to | 0:12:02 | 0:12:06 | |
some extent, set out in her
statement. Suggestions are coming | 0:12:06 | 0:12:09 | |
in, include from the public
administration and constitutional | 0:12:09 | 0:12:12 | |
affairs committee yesterday. It
affects both Houses. I would like my | 0:12:12 | 0:12:18 | |
counterpart, the Baroness of
Basildon to be fully informed as she | 0:12:18 | 0:12:22 | |
takes it through the other place.
The working party does not come | 0:12:22 | 0:12:26 | |
through the House by motion. If we
are to have change we need to | 0:12:26 | 0:12:30 | |
consult, reflect on the proposals
and to make sure it is workable. We | 0:12:30 | 0:12:33 | |
don't want to have to unpick it
later. But it is vital that the | 0:12:33 | 0:12:39 | |
people in the party hierarchy and
those trade unions who represent | 0:12:39 | 0:12:41 | |
staff in this place, who may not
have had a place in the group are | 0:12:41 | 0:12:45 | |
consulted T leader mentions a number
of suggestions that can be put in | 0:12:45 | 0:12:49 | |
place which can protect people now
for the medium term and the longer | 0:12:49 | 0:12:52 | |
term. But the Leader of the
Opposition has made it clear to me | 0:12:52 | 0:12:56 | |
and in his pet letter to the Prime
Minister that the opposition wants a | 0:12:56 | 0:13:04 | |
separate independent sexual
harassment adviser support. The | 0:13:04 | 0:13:07 | |
sexual adviser should be reported
now, who have independent and | 0:13:07 | 0:13:10 | |
qualified to take the complaintant
through the process until the tender | 0:13:10 | 0:13:14 | |
is out, which could be by the end of
January and a new separate helpline | 0:13:14 | 0:13:18 | |
to be set up now. If there are cases
which exist now people don't feel as | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
if there is nowhere to go with their
complaints. We cannot have this vk | 0:13:22 | 0:13:27 | |
couple. It could easily be done
immediately. Will the leader of the | 0:13:27 | 0:13:32 | |
House agree to do that now.
Independent human resources of | 0:13:32 | 0:13:35 | |
staff. Some belong to trade unions.
Others do not want to. There are | 0:13:35 | 0:13:39 | |
benefits to inJoing one. They have
expertise and are familiar with | 0:13:39 | 0:13:43 | |
employment rights. Given the
possibility erosion of rights as we | 0:13:43 | 0:13:47 | |
leave the EU there are concerns the
Working Time Directive may be | 0:13:47 | 0:13:51 | |
removed. It is vital those not in
management have advice and | 0:13:51 | 0:13:55 | |
assistance. I know the staff rep
said they would like the service and | 0:13:55 | 0:13:59 | |
cannot deal with the cases they have
currently. This should be offered on | 0:13:59 | 0:14:04 | |
an equivalent basis to the staff of
the House. The HR support service | 0:14:04 | 0:14:10 | |
should be expanded with sen yoor
members of staff on how to inter-- | 0:14:10 | 0:14:14 | |
senior members of staff on how to
interview. That should be separate | 0:14:14 | 0:14:17 | |
to that offered to staff. There are
policies which exist. The respect | 0:14:17 | 0:14:22 | |
policy. We heard evidence, bill on
what you have. It take hassen staff | 0:14:22 | 0:14:26 | |
of this House 18 months to get this
policy together. We need to use | 0:14:26 | 0:14:30 | |
those expertise. There are many
other policies and best practise. | 0:14:30 | 0:14:35 | |
ACAS said they are working a media
organisation to produce a policy on | 0:14:35 | 0:14:45 | |
sexual harassment. With your swift
action, health assured is now open | 0:14:45 | 0:14:50 | |
to all. It has been expanded. So
there is a route in for those who | 0:14:50 | 0:14:54 | |
need it and they can be sign posted
to different areas of expertise. | 0:14:54 | 0:15:07 | |
The leader mentions a new behaviour
code but this is where more work | 0:15:07 | 0:15:11 | |
needs to be done. There is a code,
and as the chair said it could be | 0:15:11 | 0:15:18 | |
amended. A reminder of the Nolan
principles in public life, what | 0:15:18 | 0:15:23 | |
constitutes sexist or racist
behaviour. It need not be long, this | 0:15:23 | 0:15:27 | |
mandatory training for every person
in the House, two hours which will | 0:15:27 | 0:15:33 | |
include fire safety and even cyber
security. It is necessary for those | 0:15:33 | 0:15:37 | |
who work here, not only to protect
themselves on what is appropriate | 0:15:37 | 0:15:42 | |
and inappropriate behaviour, but
that is the right thing to do. As | 0:15:42 | 0:15:46 | |
for sanctions, if it is for members
there must be further discussion | 0:15:46 | 0:15:59 | |
with the parties. The Labour Party
is constantly refining its sexual | 0:15:59 | 0:16:01 | |
harassment process. It has been
looked at by a leading QC that we | 0:16:01 | 0:16:04 | |
are in a much better place. Any
process needs to be tested through | 0:16:04 | 0:16:06 | |
the experience of a complainant,
only that way will we know if it | 0:16:06 | 0:16:09 | |
works. This is too important an
issue. There needs to be expert help | 0:16:09 | 0:16:14 | |
or consultants whether it's through
a select committee or Parliamentary | 0:16:14 | 0:16:19 | |
Forum, it will be set up to monitor
outcomes and take forward further | 0:16:19 | 0:16:24 | |
work and refine our policies. The
majority of people working here on | 0:16:24 | 0:16:27 | |
Monday, when you referred to
members, dedicated and hard-working | 0:16:27 | 0:16:33 | |
committed public servants doing what
you believe is the right thing for | 0:16:33 | 0:16:36 | |
the country. I hope it will have
given power to the powerless as we | 0:16:36 | 0:16:47 | |
protect vulnerable people and enable
them to work in this centre of | 0:16:47 | 0:16:50 | |
democracy. Mr Speaker, may I just
say to the honourable lady that I'm | 0:16:50 | 0:16:58 | |
very pleased to hear that she feels
the work is progressing well, that's | 0:16:58 | 0:17:04 | |
some good recommendations have been
made. I think it is very pleasing | 0:17:04 | 0:17:09 | |
she wishes to make urgent progress
and I look forward to working with | 0:17:09 | 0:17:16 | |
her closely on this in the New Year.
Thank you. Thank you, Mr Speaker, I | 0:17:16 | 0:17:26 | |
would like to thank the Leader of
the House and the work alongside all | 0:17:26 | 0:17:30 | |
colleagues over the last six weeks
and I welcome the updates in the New | 0:17:30 | 0:17:35 | |
Year and the group taking on this
matter by the leader on behalf of | 0:17:35 | 0:17:39 | |
the Prime Minister to get this
right. I have been committed in this | 0:17:39 | 0:17:43 | |
place to making a positive place for
everyone working here and sitting on | 0:17:43 | 0:17:48 | |
your diversity committee has very
much been an honour but it has shown | 0:17:48 | 0:17:52 | |
the amount of challenges that we
have. As chair of the all | 0:17:52 | 0:18:01 | |
Parliamentary group, we hosted an
event here for staff, aspiring | 0:18:01 | 0:18:07 | |
politicians, councillors, business
leaders and... The Speaker: Order! I | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
don't wish to be discourteous. We
have a lot of business to get onto, | 0:18:12 | 0:18:17 | |
I'm waiting to call someone else as
well who has other pressing | 0:18:17 | 0:18:20 | |
business. I need a single sentence
question, nothing more. Can we all | 0:18:20 | 0:18:27 | |
commit to using every area to make
this a safe place to work and aspire | 0:18:27 | 0:18:32 | |
to be? My honourable friend does a
huge amount of this place to support | 0:18:32 | 0:18:39 | |
particularly women but all equality
issues and I absolutely commend her | 0:18:39 | 0:18:43 | |
for that and will be delighted to
work with her. As a member of the | 0:18:43 | 0:18:51 | |
working group I want to commend the
honourable lady for her leadership | 0:18:51 | 0:18:54 | |
on this issue and the diligent way
she's gone round trying to build | 0:18:54 | 0:18:59 | |
consensus. We have made solid
progress but it is profoundly | 0:18:59 | 0:19:03 | |
disappointing we have been unable to
deliver a report on this side of | 0:19:03 | 0:19:07 | |
Christmas as anticipated and as
expected by the rest of the people | 0:19:07 | 0:19:12 | |
in this House. The Leader of the
House has gone that extra mile to | 0:19:12 | 0:19:17 | |
ensure progress has been made. But
by failing to deliver this report we | 0:19:17 | 0:19:22 | |
have let everyone down in this
House, particularly the staff who | 0:19:22 | 0:19:27 | |
were expecting quick and speedy
progress and I'm appalled if there | 0:19:27 | 0:19:30 | |
is any suggestion this might be
getting punted into the long grass. | 0:19:30 | 0:19:35 | |
We have an excellent report ready to
go which has been agreed by all the | 0:19:35 | 0:19:39 | |
parties in this House, practically
all the parties, and has been agreed | 0:19:39 | 0:19:43 | |
by all staff representatives. I want
to join the leader in thanking the | 0:19:43 | 0:19:55 | |
expert on sexual harassment, who
with their extensive experience, | 0:19:55 | 0:19:58 | |
have helped design the report that
covers concerns raised by staff. I | 0:19:58 | 0:20:04 | |
sincerely hope if there are parties
in this House who may have issues | 0:20:04 | 0:20:07 | |
about getting the process of
delivering this report that they are | 0:20:07 | 0:20:10 | |
quickly dealt with. It is far too
important an issue to be lost in | 0:20:10 | 0:20:17 | |
party political machinery so can I
ask the Leader of the House to get | 0:20:17 | 0:20:20 | |
people round the table as quickly as
possible and make sure this report | 0:20:20 | 0:20:23 | |
is delivered so we can start
protecting people in this House. I | 0:20:23 | 0:20:28 | |
would like to thank the honourable
gentleman for his tireless work, he | 0:20:28 | 0:20:33 | |
has been dedicated to making
progress with this and I commend him | 0:20:33 | 0:20:36 | |
for that. I share his enthusiasm for
speedy work, speedy further | 0:20:36 | 0:20:41 | |
progress. All colleagues will be
aware of the need for careful | 0:20:41 | 0:20:46 | |
consultation but we do need to make
faster progress. I welcome my right | 0:20:46 | 0:20:52 | |
honourable friend's statement and
thank all of the members across the | 0:20:52 | 0:20:56 | |
House who have worked on this. I am
particularly keen to hear more going | 0:20:56 | 0:21:03 | |
forward on the code of conduct and
counselling made available. I have | 0:21:03 | 0:21:07 | |
even raised with you the code of
conduct, Mr Speaker, and it's also | 0:21:07 | 0:21:11 | |
about the language which we know the
importance of in this chamber. It | 0:21:11 | 0:21:16 | |
can empower people but sometimes
people use language to subjugate | 0:21:16 | 0:21:19 | |
women. Yes, my honourable friend
raises a really important point | 0:21:19 | 0:21:25 | |
about language and I do encourage
her to send in our own written | 0:21:25 | 0:21:33 | |
submission to the working group. I
want to say thank you to the Leader | 0:21:33 | 0:21:37 | |
of the House for having a very open
process that I have personally felt | 0:21:37 | 0:21:40 | |
I could take part in throughout the
process. What worries me about what | 0:21:40 | 0:21:45 | |
has been said today, although I
think it is good progress, what | 0:21:45 | 0:21:48 | |
worries me is there seems to be
quite a lot of kicking can down the | 0:21:48 | 0:21:54 | |
road potentially and that we are not
going to hear what is to happen, and | 0:21:54 | 0:21:58 | |
I have to say I fear politics is
still stopping some of those | 0:21:58 | 0:22:04 | |
decisions and I want some assurances
that whatever sanctions regime the | 0:22:04 | 0:22:11 | |
working group has worked towards,
whatever independent regime the | 0:22:11 | 0:22:14 | |
working group has worked towards, it
is swiftly as possible if come to | 0:22:14 | 0:22:18 | |
fruition. The honourable lady has
been very helpful and open with her | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
views on this matter and I assure
her I'm working to get this sorted | 0:22:24 | 0:22:29 | |
as soon as possible. I'd like to
thank the leader for her work on | 0:22:29 | 0:22:38 | |
this working group, but as she knows
there are glaring omissions in the | 0:22:38 | 0:22:42 | |
work so far. For example the word
violence didn't alter from her lips | 0:22:42 | 0:22:48 | |
this morning. Can I suggest this
working group is too narrowly drawn | 0:22:48 | 0:22:52 | |
and she should consider setting up a
special select committee on which | 0:22:52 | 0:22:55 | |
all members of this House would
apply to be elected because we want | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
to make sure this is modern exemplar
of a workplace fit for the rest of | 0:22:59 | 0:23:06 | |
the world. I'm grateful to my
honourable friend and I can assure | 0:23:06 | 0:23:12 | |
him one of the proposals the working
group is looking at is the provision | 0:23:12 | 0:23:16 | |
of services by an independent sexual
harassment and sexual violence that | 0:23:16 | 0:23:24 | |
-- advocate. His comments about the
proposed love select committee is an | 0:23:24 | 0:23:31 | |
interesting one, I've also mentioned
that as one of the proposals put to | 0:23:31 | 0:23:34 | |
us. The working group will look
carefully at the different | 0:23:34 | 0:23:37 | |
suggestions for how we take this
work forward to make sure we have | 0:23:37 | 0:23:42 | |
consulted thoroughly and done our
work very considerably and in the | 0:23:42 | 0:23:45 | |
full knowledge across this place. I
praise her diplomacy, what she has | 0:23:45 | 0:23:54 | |
announced is fine as far as it goes
but she knows it's important and | 0:23:54 | 0:23:57 | |
urgent that we make more progress
and indeed that many in the working | 0:23:57 | 0:24:01 | |
group, including some members who
cannot be here today, are | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
disappointed and frustrated we are
not further forward. She is right to | 0:24:05 | 0:24:10 | |
say change is hard, would she agree
vested interests, not least whips | 0:24:10 | 0:24:14 | |
office is reluctant to give up their
power, must not be allowed to derail | 0:24:14 | 0:24:20 | |
parliament making progress on
harassment? Again, I would like to | 0:24:20 | 0:24:26 | |
thank the honourable lady for her
contribution to the working group. | 0:24:26 | 0:24:30 | |
She has worked tirelessly on it and
also mention the honourable lady the | 0:24:30 | 0:24:35 | |
Member for Brighton, who has spent a
great deal of time and effort on | 0:24:35 | 0:24:38 | |
this. I would however say to her
that I have spoken to whips on both | 0:24:38 | 0:24:42 | |
sides of the House and in fact on
all sides of the House and all are | 0:24:42 | 0:24:46 | |
very keen to see resolution of this
matter and careful consideration but | 0:24:46 | 0:24:52 | |
I do believe we will be in a point
to make faster progress in the New | 0:24:52 | 0:24:56 | |
Year. I congratulate my right
honourable friend on her leadership | 0:24:56 | 0:25:02 | |
and drive on this issue. Of course
Parliament is a special and unique | 0:25:02 | 0:25:07 | |
place of work but I think my
constituents will be most reassured | 0:25:07 | 0:25:11 | |
if the bespoke scheme that we come
up with was a blend of the best | 0:25:11 | 0:25:16 | |
independent complaints procedure in
the private sector, the best | 0:25:16 | 0:25:23 | |
independent complaints and grievance
sector in the public sector, and the | 0:25:23 | 0:25:25 | |
best example of an independent
grievance from around the world. As | 0:25:25 | 0:25:38 | |
I said in my statement, we want to
be setting the best example, we | 0:25:38 | 0:25:42 | |
don't just want to be following
someone else but setting a great | 0:25:42 | 0:25:45 | |
example and make sure the culture in
this place is somewhere where | 0:25:45 | 0:25:49 | |
everybody feels safe, valued and
respected. May I join with others | 0:25:49 | 0:25:56 | |
commending the Leader of the House
on the work that has happened so far | 0:25:56 | 0:25:59 | |
and recognise the journey to go
because we all have some way to go | 0:25:59 | 0:26:03 | |
before we can practice what we are
preaching in this House. On that | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
point, can I ask her to clarify, she
said in her statement further work | 0:26:07 | 0:26:11 | |
needs to be carried out to ensure
sanctions are appropriate, fair and | 0:26:11 | 0:26:16 | |
unenforceable. Will she and core --
ensure recall is on the table as an | 0:26:16 | 0:26:26 | |
option and that severance payments
will be received by those who have | 0:26:26 | 0:26:33 | |
behaved inappropriately. Recall is
set in law as a matter of fact so it | 0:26:33 | 0:26:38 | |
is a possibility under certain
conditions as a matter of fact. The | 0:26:38 | 0:26:42 | |
working party has not yet finished
its work or its evidence taking on | 0:26:42 | 0:26:46 | |
exactly how that can be brought to
bear here but we are very clear | 0:26:46 | 0:26:49 | |
there will be ultimate sanctions,
but let's also be clear, the issue | 0:26:49 | 0:26:52 | |
for Parliament isn't one that only
affects members, it affects peers | 0:26:52 | 0:26:58 | |
and staff, nonmember staff around
the parliamentary estate so there is | 0:26:58 | 0:27:03 | |
a large amount of work which is why
I was very clear the work on | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
sanctions needs to be looked at
further to make sure they are fair | 0:27:07 | 0:27:10 | |
both to the person who's been
alleged to have committed something | 0:27:10 | 0:27:14 | |
bad and also to the complainant who
deserves justice so there is more | 0:27:14 | 0:27:18 | |
work to be done there. I'd like to
thank the leader for her statement | 0:27:18 | 0:27:24 | |
that contains some welcome measures,
particularly the sexual violence | 0:27:24 | 0:27:30 | |
advocate service, and could I also
say I am extremely welcome that the | 0:27:30 | 0:27:34 | |
system needs to be completely
separate from the normal political | 0:27:34 | 0:27:40 | |
channels. As the Leader of the House
is aware, I note the behaviour code | 0:27:40 | 0:27:50 | |
in the statement will cover a much
larger number of people than members | 0:27:50 | 0:27:54 | |
of this House. I wonder at this
stage if you can answer the question | 0:27:54 | 0:27:58 | |
well she is consulting further, who
would look at the issue of | 0:27:58 | 0:28:06 | |
investigating members, not members
of this House but other people who | 0:28:06 | 0:28:12 | |
may come under that cold. He raises
a similar point of the honourable | 0:28:12 | 0:28:19 | |
lady from Walthamstow, very
important the sanction should be | 0:28:19 | 0:28:21 | |
fair and appropriate to whatever is
the employment contract or contract | 0:28:21 | 0:28:25 | |
with members of the public that is
held by the person about whom the | 0:28:25 | 0:28:29 | |
accusation is being made so it will
require further work to ensure | 0:28:29 | 0:28:34 | |
sanctions are appropriate for the
alleged perpetrator. Can I thank the | 0:28:34 | 0:28:40 | |
GMB union for being the first Labour
affiliate to building detailed | 0:28:40 | 0:28:45 | |
questioning of potential MPs or
candidates understanding of sexual | 0:28:45 | 0:28:49 | |
harassment and for having the
integrity to refuse to nominate | 0:28:49 | 0:28:53 | |
people who don't have that
understanding. Will the Leader of | 0:28:53 | 0:28:58 | |
the House let us know whether those
women who have previously complained | 0:28:58 | 0:29:02 | |
don't feel their complaint has
actually been heard, will they have | 0:29:02 | 0:29:06 | |
recourse to this new system? A great
deal of discussion on this point | 0:29:06 | 0:29:13 | |
took place and it was recognised by
the working group there would have | 0:29:13 | 0:29:19 | |
to be certain limitations because
theoretically otherwise you could be | 0:29:19 | 0:29:22 | |
listening to allegations that were
40, 50 years old that potentially | 0:29:22 | 0:29:27 | |
people... The allegations against
were no longer living. It is | 0:29:27 | 0:29:35 | |
absolutely our intention that people
who have current investigations are | 0:29:35 | 0:29:38 | |
obligations should be able to seek
access to this independent | 0:29:38 | 0:29:42 | |
complaints body, even though that
body may choose for particular | 0:29:42 | 0:29:47 | |
reasons not to then take up their
obligations. | 0:29:47 | 0:29:53 | |
There are some awful employment
practises in Parliament. I know of | 0:29:53 | 0:29:58 | |
MPs shouting at their staff till
they ciesmt I know of MPs never | 0:29:58 | 0:30:03 | |
advertising for their staff before
they appoint. Interviewing on their | 0:30:03 | 0:30:07 | |
own without anybody else in the
room. Not going through a proper | 0:30:07 | 0:30:10 | |
short listing process. All sorts of
terrible practises. Wouldn't the | 0:30:10 | 0:30:14 | |
best thing be for us to have a
proper HR service available through | 0:30:14 | 0:30:19 | |
the House so, that all MPs, the
moment they arrive here, have a | 0:30:19 | 0:30:24 | |
proper opportunity, if they maybe
never employed or recruited people | 0:30:24 | 0:30:29 | |
before, to learn good practise from
the beginning? So the working group | 0:30:29 | 0:30:34 | |
has taken evidence that has
considered that. The overwhelming | 0:30:34 | 0:30:38 | |
evidence is that Members of
Parliament need to continue to | 0:30:38 | 0:30:41 | |
directly employ their staff. It was
very clear from staff evidence that | 0:30:41 | 0:30:46 | |
support for good employment
practises was needed. So to provide | 0:30:46 | 0:30:50 | |
independent advise on employment
matters. For members of staff, but | 0:30:50 | 0:30:53 | |
also that training and this is an
area I have mentioned in my | 0:30:53 | 0:30:58 | |
statement, mandatory and voluntary
should be made available, not just | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
to members but to staff. There is an
issue for many staff who, for | 0:31:01 | 0:31:05 | |
example, were saying they would like
to have proper induction, so when | 0:31:05 | 0:31:09 | |
they come here they can be taked
exactly where the table office is | 0:31:09 | 0:31:15 | |
and so on, without having to ask
other's advice. There is an | 0:31:15 | 0:31:19 | |
opportunity here to set right some
things which are fairly basic, all | 0:31:19 | 0:31:23 | |
the way up to people understanding
thoroughly what constitutes bullying | 0:31:23 | 0:31:30 | |
and harassment, what constitutes a
proper appraisal and so on. Many | 0:31:30 | 0:31:36 | |
members have that experience but not
all of them. We should make it the | 0:31:36 | 0:31:41 | |
case every employer in this place
has that training. Thank you. I am | 0:31:41 | 0:31:45 | |
pleased some trade unions have had a
voice on the working group. When is | 0:31:45 | 0:31:50 | |
Parliament going to formally
recognise trade unions? I would like | 0:31:50 | 0:31:57 | |
to pay tribute to working party
members, Max Freiedman Georgina - | 0:31:57 | 0:32:09 | |
all three who work for staff in this
place. They have done a great job. | 0:32:09 | 0:32:14 | |
They have consulted widely with
staff. There are some technical | 0:32:14 | 0:32:16 | |
reasons why it wouldn't be possible
to requ irsome sort of, across the | 0:32:16 | 0:32:22 | |
board, recognition of trade unions.
But nevertheless, in the work of the | 0:32:22 | 0:32:26 | |
working group we have taken evidence
on how valuable some of the support | 0:32:26 | 0:32:30 | |
from trade unions can be.
THE SPEAKER: I think the hom lady | 0:32:30 | 0:32:36 | |
means staff of Members of
Parliament. That is a matter that | 0:32:36 | 0:32:40 | |
can be further considered. It is
just important to put on the record, | 0:32:40 | 0:32:45 | |
for the benefit not least of those
attending to our proceedings who are | 0:32:45 | 0:32:50 | |
not members of or employed by the
House, but the House itself most | 0:32:50 | 0:32:55 | |
certainly recognises trade unions.
And negotiates with the staff of the | 0:32:55 | 0:32:58 | |
House. I recognise the other issue
at which I think the honourable lady | 0:32:58 | 0:33:04 | |
was hinting and that can certainly
be further discussed. I am in no way | 0:33:04 | 0:33:11 | |
an obstacle to a development on that
front, if that is the settled or | 0:33:11 | 0:33:15 | |
general will of members.
Thank you. If there is an HR | 0:33:15 | 0:33:23 | |
service, then surely it could
recognise trade unions for member | 0:33:23 | 0:33:27 | |
staff in the way described. Can I
thank the Leader of the House for | 0:33:27 | 0:33:31 | |
her work on this. It cannot be right
that it is easier to sanction a | 0:33:31 | 0:33:34 | |
member of this House for disorderly
conduct in the chamber than it is to | 0:33:34 | 0:33:42 | |
sanction them for disgraceful
behaviour outside of it. If she | 0:33:42 | 0:33:47 | |
cannot find unanimity in her working
group, that this issue belong to the | 0:33:47 | 0:33:51 | |
House. If she cannot get it in the
working group, perhaps she could | 0:33:51 | 0:33:58 | |
produce a draft we can all comment
on. | 0:33:58 | 0:34:02 | |
The leader of the House?
I thank the honourable gentleman. | 0:34:02 | 0:34:06 | |
The working group is working as fast
and as carefully as it possibly can. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:10 | |
As I said in my statement we hope to
be able to produce that report in | 0:34:10 | 0:34:15 | |
the New Year. Further to my
honourable friend's question, I was | 0:34:15 | 0:34:23 | |
branch secretary of Unite union in
Parliament a few years ago. I was | 0:34:23 | 0:34:27 | |
involved in legal conversations
about recognition. It is a complex | 0:34:27 | 0:34:30 | |
process. There is not a firm legal
barrier in the way. It is a crucial | 0:34:30 | 0:34:35 | |
process, the cleaning up, the
culture in this place. I am grateful | 0:34:35 | 0:34:38 | |
to your support. I beg the leader of
the House to reconsider her | 0:34:38 | 0:34:43 | |
statement just now there'll be no
recognition of Unite, the union, | 0:34:43 | 0:34:46 | |
here.
I can assure the hom lady that is | 0:34:46 | 0:34:50 | |
not what I said. I said we took
evidence on it. There are some | 0:34:50 | 0:34:54 | |
technical challenges. Also because
Members of Parliament employ their | 0:34:54 | 0:34:58 | |
staff directly there is not
necessarily a lever by which to | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
require people to make such
decisions for themselves. I am not | 0:35:02 | 0:35:04 | |
ruling anything out. I am merely
trying to enlighten the House on the | 0:35:04 | 0:35:09 | |
evidence taken by the working group.
I thank the leader of the House for | 0:35:09 | 0:35:17 | |
her hard work, for her energy and
diligence in this matter. It is very | 0:35:17 | 0:35:20 | |
good to have that over some 11
meetings over 30 hours. We Saturday | 0:35:20 | 0:35:29 | |
-- we sat on the committee. I share
her disappointment that there should | 0:35:29 | 0:35:35 | |
be any delay but welcome the
progress so far. Can the leader of | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
the House outline the next steps to
ensure a robust system to ensure | 0:35:40 | 0:35:44 | |
no-one is harassed or bullied
without action being take no-one the | 0:35:44 | 0:35:47 | |
mean time? Well, I would like to
thank his honourable friend, the | 0:35:47 | 0:35:52 | |
member for South Belfast for her
very strong and diligent | 0:35:52 | 0:35:56 | |
contribution to the working party.
She made a very strong contribution. | 0:35:56 | 0:36:00 | |
In particular bringing in the
specific issues in constituency | 0:36:00 | 0:36:05 | |
offices, particularly in the context
of Northern Ireland, which the | 0:36:05 | 0:36:07 | |
working group found very helpful. As
I have said in my statement, the | 0:36:07 | 0:36:11 | |
working group will continue to meet.
We will reconvene in the newer and | 0:36:11 | 0:36:16 | |
seek to make progress as swiftly as
we can. | 0:36:16 | 0:36:22 | |
THE SPEAKER: Order, statement the
parliamentary Under-Secretary of | 0:36:22 | 0:36:25 | |
State for local Government.
Minister Marcus Jones. | 0:36:25 | 0:36:31 | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would
firstly like to wish you, Mr | 0:36:31 | 0:36:36 | |
Speaker, and fellow members of the
House, a very merry Christmas. | 0:36:36 | 0:36:42 | |
With your permission, Mr Speaker, I
would like to thank you for the | 0:36:42 | 0:36:47 | |
opportunity to update the House on
our plans a new funding models for | 0:36:47 | 0:36:53 | |
supported housing. This update
follows an earlier debate on this | 0:36:53 | 0:36:57 | |
issue on 25th October and responds
to the recent resolution of the | 0:36:57 | 0:37:02 | |
House. Mr Speaker, we all agree that
supported housing is an invaluable | 0:37:02 | 0:37:08 | |
lifeline for some of the most
vulnerable people in our society, | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
which is why this Government is
determined to ensure that the | 0:37:12 | 0:37:17 | |
funding model that underpins
supported houses, boosts the supply | 0:37:17 | 0:37:22 | |
of this Housing housing and delivers
a good quality of life for people | 0:37:22 | 0:37:27 | |
who depend on it. The House will be
aware that we set out our plans for | 0:37:27 | 0:37:31 | |
doing this through a written
ministerial statement on 31st | 0:37:31 | 0:37:35 | |
October. In this, we confirmed that
we will not apply the local housing | 0:37:35 | 0:37:41 | |
allowance rates to tenants in
supported housing or the wider | 0:37:41 | 0:37:46 | |
social rented sector and that we
will introduce this new approach | 0:37:46 | 0:37:50 | |
from April 2020, rather than April
2019, to ensure that vital support | 0:37:50 | 0:37:55 | |
provided to vulnerable people is not
interrupted or indeed put in doubt. | 0:37:55 | 0:38:00 | |
We said that funding for housing
costs for sheltered housing will | 0:38:00 | 0:38:05 | |
stay in the welfare system. We will
introduce a sheltered rent for | 0:38:05 | 0:38:10 | |
sheltered and extra care housing, a
type of social rent that will cap | 0:38:10 | 0:38:15 | |
the amount that sheltered providers
can charge for gross rent. We will | 0:38:15 | 0:38:20 | |
work closely with the sector to set
these limits at an appropriate level | 0:38:20 | 0:38:24 | |
and more generally to protect
provision and new supply. We will | 0:38:24 | 0:38:29 | |
bring in existing supply at their
existing levels of rent and service | 0:38:29 | 0:38:33 | |
charges. We also said that long-term
supported housing such as permanent | 0:38:33 | 0:38:39 | |
housing for people with learning or
fiscal disabilities, or long-term -- | 0:38:39 | 0:38:45 | |
physical disabilities or long-term
mental ill health will remain in the | 0:38:45 | 0:38:51 | |
welfare system and look to develop
greater cost control. All provided | 0:38:51 | 0:38:57 | |
by the welfare system will continue
to be funded at the same level by | 0:38:57 | 0:39:02 | |
local authorities in 2020. Housing
costs will be funded directly by | 0:39:02 | 0:39:07 | |
local authorities through a
ring-fence grant. This ring-fence | 0:39:07 | 0:39:10 | |
will remain in the long-term. The
amount of grant funding will | 0:39:10 | 0:39:15 | |
continue to take account of the cost
of provision and the growth in | 0:39:15 | 0:39:20 | |
supply required. There are real
advantages to this new approach, by | 0:39:20 | 0:39:27 | |
retaining funding for long-termer
term supported housing and sheltered | 0:39:27 | 0:39:30 | |
housing in the welfare system, we
are giving the sector in the words | 0:39:30 | 0:39:34 | |
of the home group, the certainty we
need to get on and build more homes. | 0:39:34 | 0:39:39 | |
And they have not hesitated to act,
Mr Speaker. They have already given | 0:39:39 | 0:39:43 | |
the go ahead for £50 million of
capital investment in three new | 0:39:43 | 0:39:48 | |
supported housing schemes so, the
sector is feeling optimistic about | 0:39:48 | 0:39:51 | |
the future. Which can only be good
news for supported and sheltered | 0:39:51 | 0:39:58 | |
housing tenants. We are proposing a
new model to take account of the | 0:39:58 | 0:40:05 | |
needs it presents all short-term
provision, for example hostels and | 0:40:05 | 0:40:11 | |
women's refuges currently funded
will be funded at the same level by | 0:40:11 | 0:40:16 | |
low cart authorities in 2020. As
noted aed the recent budget 2017. | 0:40:16 | 0:40:21 | |
The documents within that budget
there will be a transfer of funds | 0:40:21 | 0:40:27 | |
from welfare spending to my
department from 2020/20216789 The | 0:40:27 | 0:40:32 | |
Right Honourable member for
Wentworth voiced concerns on October | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
25th over future funding levels for
supported housing after 2020. I | 0:40:37 | 0:40:41 | |
would like to take this opportunity
to reassure him that the amount of | 0:40:41 | 0:40:46 | |
grant funding for this part of the
sector after 2020 will continue to | 0:40:46 | 0:40:50 | |
take account of the cost of
provision and the growth of future | 0:40:50 | 0:40:54 | |
provision. I recognise there are
also concernses about the new | 0:40:54 | 0:41:00 | |
arrangements for local authorities
to directly fund short-term | 0:41:00 | 0:41:03 | |
accommodation and how it will work.
Again I want to make it absolutely | 0:41:03 | 0:41:07 | |
clear, Mr Speaker, that our aim in
making these changes is to allow | 0:41:07 | 0:41:10 | |
residents to be able to keep and
find work without having to worry | 0:41:10 | 0:41:15 | |
about meeting their housing costs at
a particular difficult time in their | 0:41:15 | 0:41:19 | |
lives. The changes will also help
people to move on without carrying a | 0:41:19 | 0:41:25 | |
legacy of rent arrears and debts to
ease the administrative burden for | 0:41:25 | 0:41:29 | |
providers, who will no longer need
to collect rent and service charges | 0:41:29 | 0:41:34 | |
from residents. Councils have a
strong interest, too. In sustainable | 0:41:34 | 0:41:39 | |
short-term accommodation, which
meets local needs, the new model | 0:41:39 | 0:41:43 | |
gives a bigger role in commissioning
short-term accommodation, as well as | 0:41:43 | 0:41:48 | |
a strategic planning rule for
strategic housing. Something the | 0:41:48 | 0:41:54 | |
local Housing Association has
welcomed. And this strong local | 0:41:54 | 0:42:00 | |
focus encourages greater engagement
at a local level with positive | 0:42:00 | 0:42:04 | |
outcomes for residents at the
forefront. We have set out a | 0:42:04 | 0:42:08 | |
framework, that provides certainty,
stronger oversight, cost control and | 0:42:08 | 0:42:13 | |
most vitally focus on good outcomes
for tenants that is needed to boost | 0:42:13 | 0:42:18 | |
housing supply in this incredibly
diverse sector. Having done that we | 0:42:18 | 0:42:22 | |
are working closely with the sector
on the detail. We are formally | 0:42:22 | 0:42:27 | |
consulting on sheltered rent and on
the short-term funding model. My | 0:42:27 | 0:42:31 | |
honourable friend for Gosport, the
minister for the Department for Work | 0:42:31 | 0:42:36 | |
and Pensions and my honourable
friend, the minister in the Home | 0:42:36 | 0:42:40 | |
Office and myself have also met
sector representatives. I am pleased | 0:42:40 | 0:42:45 | |
to say overall the response has been
positive. We acknowledge some of the | 0:42:45 | 0:42:48 | |
concerns that have been expressed
and we will continue to work with | 0:42:48 | 0:42:54 | |
local authorities, providers and
tenants to get this right. The | 0:42:54 | 0:42:56 | |
people who live in supported
housing, vulnerable older people, | 0:42:56 | 0:43:01 | |
people with learning disabilities
and physical disabilities, women and | 0:43:01 | 0:43:07 | |
children fleeing horrific domestic
abuse and the homeless deserve no | 0:43:07 | 0:43:09 | |
less. Mr Speaker, before I conclude
my statement I would just like to | 0:43:09 | 0:43:15 | |
thank all of those people who are
working to deliver sheltered and | 0:43:15 | 0:43:22 | |
supported housing across our nation
during this festive period. I would | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
like to thank them for the hard work
and all they do to support the most | 0:43:25 | 0:43:30 | |
vulnerable people in society. Mr
Speaker, I commend this to the | 0:43:30 | 0:43:34 | |
House. I join the minister in
thanking those helping the homeless. | 0:43:34 | 0:43:41 | |
I thank the minister for his earlier
copy of his same time. Although I | 0:43:41 | 0:43:46 | |
fail to see anything fresh, I
nevertheless welcome this. This | 0:43:46 | 0:43:49 | |
House has played a big part over the
last two years in getting Government | 0:43:49 | 0:43:53 | |
to reverse its previous plans on
supported housing. Individual | 0:43:53 | 0:43:59 | |
members on all sides have spoken
strongly, as have charities and | 0:43:59 | 0:44:04 | |
Housing Associations, to warn of the
folly and the flaws in the funding | 0:44:04 | 0:44:08 | |
changes. The joint Select Committee
report has laid a cross-party basis | 0:44:08 | 0:44:14 | |
for the Government re-think. We have
led three opposition debates and | 0:44:14 | 0:44:19 | |
this statement, as the minister
says, responds to the resolution of | 0:44:19 | 0:44:22 | |
the House on the last of these. In
that Labour debate on 25th October I | 0:44:22 | 0:44:27 | |
warned that the devil is always in
the detail and in the funding. To | 0:44:27 | 0:44:33 | |
say this statement today does
nothing to clear up concerns on both | 0:44:33 | 0:44:36 | |
fronts. On funding the minister
repeated the same flawed promise. He | 0:44:36 | 0:44:42 | |
says all short-term provision
currently funded be I the welfare | 0:44:42 | 0:44:45 | |
system will continue to be funded at
the same level by local authorities | 0:44:45 | 0:44:49 | |
in 2020. Only a commitment for 2020,
no pledge beyond that when the red | 0:44:49 | 0:44:57 | |
book, last month, showed the
Treasury has inked in cuts half a | 0:44:57 | 0:45:07 | |
billion in 2021/2022. Can he confirm
no cut in funding in the second | 0:45:07 | 0:45:15 | |
second quubs quent years? Quent --
subsequent years? | 0:45:15 | 0:45:21 | |
This is precisely the problem, it
will be ministers that make grant | 0:45:26 | 0:45:30 | |
decisions in the future, ministers
who say they have taken account of | 0:45:30 | 0:45:33 | |
the costs and growth, unlike the
welcome move to keep other types of | 0:45:33 | 0:45:39 | |
supported housing within the welfare
system, this will no longer be needs | 0:45:39 | 0:45:44 | |
lead, no longer based on the right
to help with housing costs for | 0:45:44 | 0:45:48 | |
individuals. This is why some are
saying it is unlikely with these | 0:45:48 | 0:45:54 | |
plans providers would be able to
secure loans to develop new services | 0:45:54 | 0:45:59 | |
or be able to ensure regulators by
providing short-term supported | 0:45:59 | 0:46:03 | |
housing is financially viable in the
long term. What would he make to | 0:46:03 | 0:46:12 | |
provide this reassurance? In
addition, confusion about how the | 0:46:12 | 0:46:17 | |
system will work in practice. The
plan is to keep residents are | 0:46:17 | 0:46:25 | |
entitled to housing benefits but
services with the new grant won't | 0:46:25 | 0:46:29 | |
charge rent or drawdown and cash in
the entitlement so what happens if | 0:46:29 | 0:46:33 | |
the service does not receive grant?
Convert their residents receive | 0:46:33 | 0:46:37 | |
housing benefit? If it receives
grant for some but not all | 0:46:37 | 0:46:41 | |
residents, can some still get
housing benefit? And would he | 0:46:41 | 0:46:48 | |
consider cutting down the definition
of short-term to two weeks, making | 0:46:48 | 0:46:55 | |
people eligible for claiming housing
benefit? And finally, what will he | 0:46:55 | 0:47:01 | |
do to ensure organisations that
don't currently deal with local | 0:47:01 | 0:47:04 | |
authorities, don't for instance get
supporting people funding, don't | 0:47:04 | 0:47:08 | |
fall through the gaps in the new
system? Finally, in future years I | 0:47:08 | 0:47:13 | |
have to say students will be giving
-- given this as a case study in | 0:47:13 | 0:47:21 | |
disastrous decision-making. This is
that their policy rewrite in two | 0:47:21 | 0:47:25 | |
years since George Osborne made the
decision to give the Treasury big | 0:47:25 | 0:47:29 | |
cost savings and the Government
still hasn't got it right, so will | 0:47:29 | 0:47:32 | |
the Minister accept that government
must work further with Parliament | 0:47:32 | 0:47:37 | |
and with the housing sector to meet
the terms of the resolution and sort | 0:47:37 | 0:47:42 | |
out a good long-term system for the
future and the funding of supported | 0:47:42 | 0:47:47 | |
housing? Thank you, Mr Speaker and
this is the season of goodwill to | 0:47:47 | 0:47:56 | |
all men and women and the right
honourable gentleman set off in his | 0:47:56 | 0:48:00 | |
remarks so well but then wasn't too
vested in his spirit. He mentioned | 0:48:00 | 0:48:09 | |
short-term accommodation and what
would happen post-20 20. If he looks | 0:48:09 | 0:48:14 | |
he will clearly see there is a
transfer from DWP to DCLG to cover | 0:48:14 | 0:48:20 | |
the cost of supported housing,
short-term supported housing going | 0:48:20 | 0:48:26 | |
forward. We are absolutely clear and
we will come forward with further | 0:48:26 | 0:48:31 | |
plans following the consultation on
how we will assess future provision | 0:48:31 | 0:48:37 | |
and how we will deal with that, and
what we will need to make sure that | 0:48:37 | 0:48:43 | |
the providers have a sustainable
position going forward to reflect | 0:48:43 | 0:48:49 | |
inflation. The tenants themselves
will not lose the ability to the | 0:48:49 | 0:48:54 | |
housing costs and we fully expect
that people will be in a position | 0:48:54 | 0:49:01 | |
when the system comes into effect
that they will have the help and | 0:49:01 | 0:49:08 | |
support they need. I would say to
him we do not expect people will | 0:49:08 | 0:49:12 | |
have opportunity to claim housing
benefit for the same service at that | 0:49:12 | 0:49:15 | |
point but what I would say to him is
there are deficiencies in the | 0:49:15 | 0:49:19 | |
current system that he just doesn't
acknowledge, like I mentioned in my | 0:49:19 | 0:49:23 | |
original speech in terms of women
going into a refuge being able to | 0:49:23 | 0:49:31 | |
work because sometimes they cannot
claim housing benefit and therefore | 0:49:31 | 0:49:35 | |
cannot work. We are also working
closely with the sector. There are | 0:49:35 | 0:49:41 | |
number of things he mentioned in
relation to how it would work with | 0:49:41 | 0:49:45 | |
local authorities and what I say to
him is we are putting in place a | 0:49:45 | 0:49:50 | |
strong statement of expectations, we
are also going to put in place very | 0:49:50 | 0:49:53 | |
strong grant conditions within the
ring fence. In terms of the point he | 0:49:53 | 0:49:59 | |
mentioned about the two years for
short-term supported accommodation, | 0:49:59 | 0:50:03 | |
what I can tell him is within the
working groups we had, and we had a | 0:50:03 | 0:50:07 | |
working group looking at this,
providers across the sector, and | 0:50:07 | 0:50:12 | |
whilst they weren't absolutely
clear, what they came up with is the | 0:50:12 | 0:50:16 | |
two year period as a sort of
minority verdict and that's why we | 0:50:16 | 0:50:23 | |
have followed the situation we have.
Just to reassure the House, this | 0:50:23 | 0:50:27 | |
Government is absolutely committed
to protecting the most vulnerable | 0:50:27 | 0:50:31 | |
and we are confident that working
with the sector we can get this | 0:50:31 | 0:50:34 | |
right. This is an extremely
important matter and I'm keen to | 0:50:34 | 0:50:41 | |
accommodate colleagues' interest in
it but can I remind the House there | 0:50:41 | 0:50:45 | |
are two heavily subscribed debates
to take place when this exchange has | 0:50:45 | 0:50:53 | |
been concluded and it would be good
if contributions did not expand to | 0:50:53 | 0:50:59 | |
fill the time available. What we are
looking for here is a short question | 0:50:59 | 0:51:03 | |
and of short reply. The former will
be brilliantly exemplified, as | 0:51:03 | 0:51:09 | |
always, by the author of the
textbook on the matter Sir Desmond | 0:51:09 | 0:51:13 | |
Swain. Will account be taken of the
security measures that are proper to | 0:51:13 | 0:51:22 | |
refugees dealing with people fleeing
domestic violence? I thank my | 0:51:22 | 0:51:31 | |
honourable friend, indeed that is an
important consideration and | 0:51:31 | 0:51:34 | |
certainly part of the housing cost
and it actually reflects why at the | 0:51:34 | 0:51:38 | |
moment housing benefit for refugees
is actually higher to reflect those | 0:51:38 | 0:51:44 | |
type of costs than it is in terms of
general needs that housing benefit. | 0:51:44 | 0:51:51 | |
I welcome the introduction of the
sheltered rent principle, it seems | 0:51:51 | 0:51:55 | |
the right thing to do, but I don't
think it's too difficult to pinpoint | 0:51:55 | 0:51:59 | |
where this Government has come in
for criticism over paying the | 0:51:59 | 0:52:02 | |
housing costs of the most
disadvantaged members of our society | 0:52:02 | 0:52:06 | |
so can the Minister give a guarantee
there will be no penny-pinching, | 0:52:06 | 0:52:09 | |
that the extra care housing costs
will be met in full by central | 0:52:09 | 0:52:14 | |
government without quibble or
caveat. That is a straight | 0:52:14 | 0:52:18 | |
up-and-down responsibility of a
modern government. The costs for | 0:52:18 | 0:52:22 | |
delivery cannot just be passed onto
local government, charities or | 0:52:22 | 0:52:26 | |
housing providers. You might
encourage him to drop the mantra | 0:52:26 | 0:52:31 | |
that providing housing support for
people is about getting them into | 0:52:31 | 0:52:34 | |
work and just say that it's about
helping people with their housing, | 0:52:34 | 0:52:38 | |
making sure people are in decent
housing is an honourable aim within | 0:52:38 | 0:52:43 | |
itself, it doesn't need additional
aims. In the October policy paper | 0:52:43 | 0:52:47 | |
there was an explicit commitment of
additional funding to Scotland and | 0:52:47 | 0:52:50 | |
Wales as a result of the
implementation of this policy. Can | 0:52:50 | 0:52:55 | |
he say whether that remains the
intention and if so what the | 0:52:55 | 0:52:58 | |
indicative song is in each case.
Lastly it is very welcome that there | 0:52:58 | 0:53:03 | |
will be some security of supply for
support for people getting back into | 0:53:03 | 0:53:07 | |
housing and hopefully moving on to
managing their own houses but can | 0:53:07 | 0:53:11 | |
the Minister sake if there is an
intention to provide additional | 0:53:11 | 0:53:14 | |
resources for the outreach work and
street work that helps find the | 0:53:14 | 0:53:17 | |
people in need in the first place?
Just a cover that last point the | 0:53:17 | 0:53:25 | |
honourable lady raised first, this
is about the housing costs that we | 0:53:25 | 0:53:30 | |
are talking about today rather than
the support costs which she | 0:53:30 | 0:53:34 | |
mentioned in that sense. To take on
the rest of the questions, in | 0:53:34 | 0:53:38 | |
relation to sheltered rent, that
will also cover extra care, and I | 0:53:38 | 0:53:51 | |
can assure the honourable lady this
is not about penny-pinching and I | 0:53:51 | 0:53:54 | |
can also reassure her on the point
of work. The point I was making was | 0:53:54 | 0:54:00 | |
about women's refuges where there
are often women who are being abused | 0:54:00 | 0:54:05 | |
and subject to domestic violence but
have reasonable jobs and without | 0:54:05 | 0:54:08 | |
giving up those jobs they wouldn't
qualify for housing benefit and I | 0:54:08 | 0:54:13 | |
can't see how that is right at all.
70% of people in supported housing | 0:54:13 | 0:54:19 | |
as well or older people so in
reality they are not people we would | 0:54:19 | 0:54:26 | |
expect to work so I just want to
clarify that. I also want to clarify | 0:54:26 | 0:54:30 | |
we are working with the devolved
government in Scotland on all | 0:54:30 | 0:54:36 | |
aspects of this policy and we will
be confirming the funding that goes | 0:54:36 | 0:54:42 | |
to Scotland and Wales in due course.
What is being done to highlight and | 0:54:42 | 0:54:47 | |
promote the best examples of
supported housing and to condemn and | 0:54:47 | 0:54:50 | |
call out the worst? My honourable
friend makes a good point and this | 0:54:50 | 0:54:56 | |
is one of the reasons for reform
because there are some appalling | 0:54:56 | 0:54:59 | |
examples of supported housing and
because in housing benefit system | 0:54:59 | 0:55:05 | |
there are no checks and balances, it
means people get away with providing | 0:55:05 | 0:55:09 | |
that appalling provision and get
paid the same for that is another | 0:55:09 | 0:55:13 | |
provider would that providing a good
quality service. We will work with | 0:55:13 | 0:55:20 | |
the LGA and the sector so we put
strong conditions in place to make | 0:55:20 | 0:55:23 | |
sure the best practices followed
everywhere. Can the Minister clarify | 0:55:23 | 0:55:28 | |
how funding domestic violence refuge
provision at the same level today | 0:55:28 | 0:55:33 | |
will address the shortfall across
the country. Around 90 women and | 0:55:33 | 0:55:40 | |
their children are being turned away
every day from refuge provision | 0:55:40 | 0:55:43 | |
across the country. Without an
increase in refuge provision and | 0:55:43 | 0:55:51 | |
without establishing a national
network, the Government will fail to | 0:55:51 | 0:55:53 | |
guarantee every woman and child
fleeing can be kept safe in a | 0:55:53 | 0:55:59 | |
refuge. The honourable lady makes a
good point, every woman should be | 0:55:59 | 0:56:03 | |
protected and have a safe place to
go. There are more spaces than in | 0:56:03 | 0:56:09 | |
2010 but she makes a good point and
we are doing a full audit next year | 0:56:09 | 0:56:13 | |
to see what provision is like across
the country and that will allow us | 0:56:13 | 0:56:17 | |
to see where the gaps and challenges
are. Can I commend the Minister for | 0:56:17 | 0:56:26 | |
the work is done in a complicated
area. Can he assured me he will | 0:56:26 | 0:56:30 | |
continue to liaise closely with the
sector to address the short-term | 0:56:30 | 0:56:35 | |
emergency accommodation and secondly
the need to stimulate much-needed | 0:56:35 | 0:56:38 | |
new development. I'd like to thank
my honourable friend for his kind | 0:56:38 | 0:56:45 | |
words and commend him for the hard
work he has put in on this | 0:56:45 | 0:56:49 | |
particular issue. He mentioned
short-term supply, on both fronts we | 0:56:49 | 0:56:54 | |
will be working closely with the
sector to make sure this happens. | 0:56:54 | 0:56:58 | |
It's already happening, the home
group have confirmed they are | 0:56:58 | 0:57:02 | |
spending another £50 million on
supported housing but we want to | 0:57:02 | 0:57:05 | |
make sure the £400 million we have
in capital funding goes out and | 0:57:05 | 0:57:09 | |
builds good quality supported
housing to build on the other | 0:57:09 | 0:57:14 | |
housing units we have built since
2011. Will the Minister commit to an | 0:57:14 | 0:57:19 | |
annual review of these arrangements
to see if the investment he says is | 0:57:19 | 0:57:23 | |
going to, was in fact come, and can
he also confirm when the Government | 0:57:23 | 0:57:28 | |
will have a long-term sustainable
plan for the sector? I can reassure | 0:57:28 | 0:57:33 | |
the honourable gentleman what we are
putting in place is a long-term | 0:57:33 | 0:57:37 | |
sustainable plan for the sector, and
I would say to him that we are | 0:57:37 | 0:57:41 | |
working with the sector very closely
to make sure they are reassured of | 0:57:41 | 0:57:44 | |
that. Will my honourable friend meet
with me with north Staffordshire | 0:57:44 | 0:57:52 | |
YMCA and north Staffordshire women's
aid to discuss some of the concerns | 0:57:52 | 0:57:56 | |
they have for short-term supported
housing? I thank my honourable | 0:57:56 | 0:58:02 | |
friend who is a strong campaigner
for the people of Stafford and | 0:58:02 | 0:58:06 | |
Staffordshire and I would be glad to
meet with him and the YMCA and his | 0:58:06 | 0:58:11 | |
local women's aid to talk about
short-term accommodation. I've met | 0:58:11 | 0:58:14 | |
with members on both sides of the
House to discuss this issue and I'm | 0:58:14 | 0:58:18 | |
very welcome to do so. I share my
right honourable friend's concerns | 0:58:18 | 0:58:24 | |
about moving from a demand led
system for people in need of | 0:58:24 | 0:58:29 | |
short-term supported housing. Will
the Minister say what will happen if | 0:58:29 | 0:58:33 | |
a local authority has no allocation
left to meet the needs of honourable | 0:58:33 | 0:58:37 | |
individuals? Will the central
government be underwriting costs in | 0:58:37 | 0:58:43 | |
those circumstances? This is about
getting the system right. We have | 0:58:43 | 0:58:48 | |
until 2020 to do that. We need to
make sure we have our assessment of | 0:58:48 | 0:58:52 | |
needs in particular areas right,
areas will have to set out a clear | 0:58:52 | 0:58:56 | |
plan to say what the future need in
a particular area will be. We will | 0:58:56 | 0:59:01 | |
be working with them on that because
we are clear we want there to be the | 0:59:01 | 0:59:06 | |
ability for people to have access to
the various types of short-term | 0:59:06 | 0:59:10 | |
supported accommodation going
forward. I commend my honourable | 0:59:10 | 0:59:19 | |
friend for the action he's taken so
far. By definition, people in | 0:59:19 | 0:59:25 | |
supported housing are vulnerable but
far too often we concentrate on what | 0:59:25 | 0:59:28 | |
they can't do rather than what they
can do. But clearly one of the | 0:59:28 | 0:59:34 | |
problems people face is complicated
form filling or asking for money | 0:59:34 | 0:59:38 | |
which is their entitlement. Can he
looked during this transitional | 0:59:38 | 0:59:43 | |
phase at streamlining the process so
we take the anxiety out of those in | 0:59:43 | 0:59:47 | |
supported housing so they can fulfil
their real potential in what they | 0:59:47 | 0:59:51 | |
can do in society? My honourable
friend as usual hits the nail on the | 0:59:51 | 0:59:57 | |
head and he's right that at a time
when people are in crisis in their | 0:59:57 | 1:00:01 | |
lives, form filling and bureaucracy
is not the first thing on their mind | 1:00:01 | 1:00:05 | |
and he is also write a lot of these
people have a significant amount of | 1:00:05 | 1:00:09 | |
potential. With our new system we
will take that form filling and | 1:00:09 | 1:00:13 | |
bureaucracy out of the way so we can
support people when they | 1:00:13 | 1:00:25 | |
Homelessness has been on the rise
over the last two year model. Are we | 1:00:26 | 1:00:31 | |
confident now the government's
statements today will put security | 1:00:31 | 1:00:35 | |
into place that is needed to tackle
what the right honourable member for | 1:00:35 | 1:00:41 | |
Waverley says around short-term
needs and longer term investment? I | 1:00:41 | 1:00:47 | |
am confident we can achieve that in
terms of short-term supported | 1:00:47 | 1:00:51 | |
housing. I am confident the other
measures the government is taking, | 1:00:51 | 1:00:57 | |
having supported the Homelessness
Reduction Act and various other | 1:00:57 | 1:01:02 | |
programmes, including Housing First
we are looking to pilot will make a | 1:01:02 | 1:01:07 | |
difference in tackling homelessness
and make a difference. I recently | 1:01:07 | 1:01:17 | |
visited supported housing in my
constituency and saw the excellent | 1:01:17 | 1:01:21 | |
work going on. Will the Minister to
commit to continue to encourage and | 1:01:21 | 1:01:26 | |
support this vital sector? I
absolutely will. I want to reassure | 1:01:26 | 1:01:34 | |
the short-term providers in his
constituency, we are continuing to | 1:01:34 | 1:01:37 | |
work with the sector. We are
loosening to some of the concerns. | 1:01:37 | 1:01:44 | |
It is important when you meet the
short-term providers, when we | 1:01:44 | 1:01:48 | |
explain what we're looking to do,
they are reasonably warm to the | 1:01:48 | 1:01:51 | |
things we are looking to do. But
they also say to others we've got to | 1:01:51 | 1:01:56 | |
get it right, convince them, for
example, the ring fencing, is for | 1:01:56 | 1:02:02 | |
the long term and we are seeking to
do that. The Minister claims he | 1:02:02 | 1:02:08 | |
wants to help the young, vulnerable
homeless but in Mike constituency, | 1:02:08 | 1:02:15 | |
Crossroads the hostel for young
people is funded by the Salvation | 1:02:15 | 1:02:21 | |
Army, housing allowance and
Lancashire County Council but this | 1:02:21 | 1:02:24 | |
government is butchering the County
Council's budgets. How can he | 1:02:24 | 1:02:30 | |
reassure me Crossroads will stay
open? I have given access to council | 1:02:30 | 1:02:38 | |
another nine 5p for adult social
care. I take the point of what he | 1:02:38 | 1:02:46 | |
makes for his constituency that run
programmes by homeless people. | 1:02:46 | 1:02:57 | |
Order. Point of order, briefly Chris
Stephens. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I | 1:02:57 | 1:03:06 | |
sent you a copy of the letter I
received from Circle. I will gently | 1:03:06 | 1:03:17 | |
describe it as being in temperate.
It gives an interpretation of data | 1:03:17 | 1:03:25 | |
protection of the Data Protection
Act 1988 and the members of the | 1:03:25 | 1:03:31 | |
House should seek approval from
constituents. Could you provide me | 1:03:31 | 1:03:35 | |
with an interpretation of data
protection as it applies to members | 1:03:35 | 1:03:38 | |
of the House? I am grateful to the
honourable member. I am sited on the | 1:03:38 | 1:03:47 | |
matter, because he alerted me to the
thrust and I have seen the letter | 1:03:47 | 1:03:52 | |
the honourable gentleman has
received from the chief Executive of | 1:03:52 | 1:03:54 | |
circle, a substantial letter which
has caused him considerable | 1:03:54 | 1:04:00 | |
disquiet, not to say consternation.
I would expect all organisations | 1:04:00 | 1:04:05 | |
dealing with honourable members or
their staff to respect the | 1:04:05 | 1:04:13 | |
constitutional responsibility of
members of Parliament to pursue | 1:04:13 | 1:04:17 | |
issues on behalf of their
constituents and to be both helpful | 1:04:17 | 1:04:20 | |
and courteous to them in doing so.
Just as I am sure we would expect | 1:04:20 | 1:04:26 | |
ourselves and staff to be in, in our
dealings with others. I can make no | 1:04:26 | 1:04:33 | |
comment on the substance of the
disagreement between the honourable | 1:04:33 | 1:04:37 | |
member and the chief executive of
circle. But I can confirm in the | 1:04:37 | 1:04:42 | |
words of the information
Commissioner guidance, the data | 1:04:42 | 1:04:46 | |
protection, processing of sensitive
personal data, collected | 1:04:46 | 1:04:53 | |
representatives order 2002, and
matter raised in the House some | 1:04:53 | 1:04:59 | |
months ago, upon which I ruled that
the time, provides a basis with the | 1:04:59 | 1:05:07 | |
disclosure of sensitive personal
data by organisations responding to | 1:05:07 | 1:05:10 | |
members acting on behalf of
individual constituents. The order | 1:05:10 | 1:05:13 | |
doesn't place an obligation on
organisations to disclose personal | 1:05:13 | 1:05:20 | |
sensitive data to members who raise
matters on behalf of constituents. | 1:05:20 | 1:05:24 | |
However, it provides a legal basis
for doing so and removes unnecessary | 1:05:24 | 1:05:29 | |
bureaucracy and the late.
Consequently, in the great majority | 1:05:29 | 1:05:36 | |
of cases, organisations will be able
to release sensitive, personal | 1:05:36 | 1:05:41 | |
information about a particular
constituent to the member without | 1:05:41 | 1:05:45 | |
advising the constituent of this,
provided the disclosure is | 1:05:45 | 1:05:48 | |
reasonable and necessary for the
purposes of, or in connection with, | 1:05:48 | 1:05:55 | |
responding to a request from the
constituent. I hope it is helpful to | 1:05:55 | 1:05:59 | |
the honourable gentleman and when
members people across to the | 1:05:59 | 1:06:04 | |
relevant offers to obtain a copy of
the official report and study my | 1:06:04 | 1:06:09 | |
response, they will similarly
concluded that it is helpful. If | 1:06:09 | 1:06:15 | |
there are no further points of order
and I see the beaming countenance of | 1:06:15 | 1:06:21 | |
the honourable gentleman and I wish
him all the best for Christmas and | 1:06:21 | 1:06:24 | |
the New Year. Seeing as there have
been so many festive greetings this | 1:06:24 | 1:06:28 | |
morning I should take the
opportunity to say now, to members | 1:06:28 | 1:06:32 | |
who will not be here much later, I
wish them all a Merry Christmas. | 1:06:32 | 1:06:36 | |
Thank them for their huge and
unstinting efforts over this year | 1:06:36 | 1:06:41 | |
and express the confident
expectation and hope they will | 1:06:41 | 1:06:46 | |
redouble them next. We now come to
the backbench debate on Russian | 1:06:46 | 1:06:52 | |
interference in UK politics and
society. A considerable number of | 1:06:52 | 1:06:58 | |
members wish to speak in this
debate. There will be three, front | 1:06:58 | 1:07:04 | |
bench speeches towards the end and
therefore I think I can say with | 1:07:04 | 1:07:08 | |
some confidence, the opening speech
by the right honourable gentleman, a | 1:07:08 | 1:07:15 | |
very senior denizen of the House and
formerly deputy leader of it, will | 1:07:15 | 1:07:19 | |
not exceed 15 minutes. Mr Tom brake.
Thank you, I will seek to stay | 1:07:19 | 1:07:27 | |
within your limits and hope to gain
some credit for it in the near | 1:07:27 | 1:07:31 | |
future. This is a very welcome
opportunity to debate this subject | 1:07:31 | 1:07:35 | |
and I thank the backbench business
committee for making the time | 1:07:35 | 1:07:40 | |
available and the colleagues who
supported the bed. I am pleased we | 1:07:40 | 1:07:45 | |
have a very good representation of
senior members here who have a | 1:07:45 | 1:07:49 | |
long-standing interest in the
subject of Russia. The premise of | 1:07:49 | 1:07:53 | |
this debate is the UK is at risk of
neglecting the threat Russia poses | 1:07:53 | 1:07:59 | |
and I would argue Russia is a clear
and present danger. It presents a | 1:07:59 | 1:08:03 | |
threat to our democracy. Some may
consider that to be alarmist, but I | 1:08:03 | 1:08:08 | |
hope to explain why it is not. I am
not going to be able to cover, in | 1:08:08 | 1:08:13 | |
the 15 minutes, all areas of
concern, such as the impact of dirty | 1:08:13 | 1:08:18 | |
Russian money in the UK and the UK
Government's apparent unwillingness | 1:08:18 | 1:08:22 | |
to hunt it down or the extent to
which the energy industry is | 1:08:22 | 1:08:29 | |
vulnerable to Russian takeovers or
leveraged, or the appropriateness of | 1:08:29 | 1:08:36 | |
the London Stock Exchange floating
EN plus. But I suspect other members | 1:08:36 | 1:08:40 | |
will contribute to this debate who
will pick up on those issues. Why do | 1:08:40 | 1:08:44 | |
I make this alarmist statement about
Russia? First of all, clearly there | 1:08:44 | 1:08:49 | |
have been attempts by the Russians
to influence the outcome of a number | 1:08:49 | 1:08:54 | |
of elections. According to the Henry
Jackson Society, there isn't one | 1:08:54 | 1:08:59 | |
smoking gun, but it is a case of
joining up the dots and Russia does | 1:08:59 | 1:09:03 | |
have a history of interference. The
threat is not new, it has been | 1:09:03 | 1:09:07 | |
around for a decade, especially in
the stony and and Georgia elections | 1:09:07 | 1:09:13 | |
in 2008 and 2009. There was the
well-publicised Russian interference | 1:09:13 | 1:09:20 | |
mainly post-Scottish independence
referendum where they tried to | 1:09:20 | 1:09:25 | |
discredit the result of the
election. We have seen in the US, | 1:09:25 | 1:09:29 | |
the most famous example of side
interference through the activities | 1:09:29 | 1:09:34 | |
of the Internet research agency
which spent over $2 million on | 1:09:34 | 1:09:36 | |
activity in America alone over the
last two years. That was funding | 1:09:36 | 1:09:43 | |
directly authorised from the
Kremlin. There is a pattern of | 1:09:43 | 1:09:48 | |
behaviour which suggests Russia will
have interfered in the EU referendum | 1:09:48 | 1:09:51 | |
as well. I will give way. . He
referred to this having taken place | 1:09:51 | 1:09:58 | |
over the last decade. Hasn't this
been the pattern of behaviour since | 1:09:58 | 1:10:04 | |
the Bolshevik coup 100 years ago? As
I said earlier, I only have 15 | 1:10:04 | 1:10:11 | |
minutes in which to contribute to
this debate, whilst I agree with | 1:10:11 | 1:10:14 | |
him, we could go back a lot further.
He may wish to do so, I don't know | 1:10:14 | 1:10:21 | |
if he is making a speech in this
debate. But I am focusing on recent | 1:10:21 | 1:10:24 | |
activity. This information emerged
last month about hundreds of Twitter | 1:10:24 | 1:10:32 | |
accounts probably run from St
Petersburg. And it showed at least | 1:10:32 | 1:10:39 | |
419 fake accounts tweeted about
Brexit, a total of just under 3500 | 1:10:39 | 1:10:46 | |
times. That was mostly after the
referendum had taken place, rather | 1:10:46 | 1:10:50 | |
than before. Research at city
University from October showed there | 1:10:50 | 1:10:54 | |
was a 13 13,500 strong army and
social media at around the time of | 1:10:54 | 1:11:03 | |
the referendum and the roads posted
no less than city 5000 tweets about | 1:11:03 | 1:11:10 | |
the referendum showing a clear slant
towards the Leader of the House | 1:11:10 | 1:11:16 | |
campaign. Although there was no
evidence of any Russian involvement. | 1:11:16 | 1:11:21 | |
He has mentioned about Twitter so
far and most of the hard evidence we | 1:11:21 | 1:11:24 | |
have seems to come from Twitter. But
I wonder if he agrees part of the | 1:11:24 | 1:11:28 | |
reason why the evidence comes from
Twitter is because Facebook don't | 1:11:28 | 1:11:33 | |
cooperate in the way I which I
believe they should do in order to | 1:11:33 | 1:11:37 | |
get to the root of these particular
problems? I am indeed, going to come | 1:11:37 | 1:11:44 | |
onto Facebook and some negative and
positive things about their | 1:11:44 | 1:11:48 | |
activities. One thing I should say
is, I am not attacking the Russians, | 1:11:48 | 1:11:54 | |
I am attacking the Russian
government. The other thing I should | 1:11:54 | 1:11:59 | |
say, some of the activities the
Russian government, or people | 1:11:59 | 1:12:03 | |
associated with them, might have
been involved with, might be | 1:12:03 | 1:12:07 | |
activities of the State actors are
conducting as well. This isn't just | 1:12:07 | 1:12:11 | |
about Russia, although this is
clearly the subject of the debate. | 1:12:11 | 1:12:16 | |
The US has a gaping vulnerability
for operations carried out by the | 1:12:16 | 1:12:21 | |
USA and other malicious actors
across social media environment. In | 1:12:21 | 1:12:25 | |
the USA, just one account from the
Troll factory in St Petersburg | 1:12:25 | 1:12:30 | |
managed to amass 120,000 followers,
interacted with the tram campaign | 1:12:30 | 1:12:35 | |
leaders and was quoted in newspapers
like the Washington Post as the | 1:12:35 | 1:12:39 | |
voice of the American right. I asked
the minister whether he is happy the | 1:12:39 | 1:12:45 | |
UK has adequate defences against
such interference? Whilst Aaron | 1:12:45 | 1:12:49 | |
Banks and Nigel Farage may be Putin
fans, President Putin is not a | 1:12:49 | 1:12:54 | |
friend of this country. I will give
way in a second. Russia will only | 1:12:54 | 1:13:00 | |
have interfered in any elections
here to damage the UK and indeed the | 1:13:00 | 1:13:04 | |
EU security. The honourable member
is making a brilliant point. Has he | 1:13:04 | 1:13:13 | |
noticed the American national
Security strategy published this | 1:13:13 | 1:13:17 | |
week specifically recognises this
threat, whereas our national | 1:13:17 | 1:13:21 | |
security strategy, does not? It is a
good point and do something I will | 1:13:21 | 1:13:27 | |
come onto. Clearly it is a source of
concern. There is no soft power in | 1:13:27 | 1:13:34 | |
Putin's eyes and the use of social
media to interfere is and weaponised | 1:13:34 | 1:13:39 | |
tool, as far as he is concerned. The
covert interference is supplemented | 1:13:39 | 1:13:44 | |
by more overt attempts to create
immediate counter narrative. We're | 1:13:44 | 1:13:50 | |
now talking about Russia today. The
chief editor is on the record | 1:13:50 | 1:13:57 | |
comparing it to the Ministry of
Defence, saying we are fighting an | 1:13:57 | 1:14:00 | |
information war against the whole of
the Western world, referring to the | 1:14:00 | 1:14:06 | |
information weapon which is choosing
critical moments and saying about | 1:14:06 | 1:14:09 | |
their task in peacetime is to build
an audience so they can fight the | 1:14:09 | 1:14:14 | |
information war better next time.
Not surprisingly, Chatham House and | 1:14:14 | 1:14:22 | |
Henry Jackson C RT as a tool to
destabilise the nation from the | 1:14:22 | 1:14:27 | |
Kremlin. RT was breech of the come
because of stories about Assad and | 1:14:27 | 1:14:37 | |
chemical weapons. But off gum have
never enforced sanctions as and when | 1:14:37 | 1:14:44 | |
it was appropriate. In terms of the
numbers, Ofcom have sanctioned 87 | 1:14:44 | 1:14:56 | |
broadcasters, RT not been subject of
sanction over that time. So that was | 1:14:56 | 1:15:01 | |
ten years up until March 20 17th and
found broadcasters have breached the | 1:15:01 | 1:15:07 | |
broadcasting code 2500 times. I
don't think anyone is advocating | 1:15:07 | 1:15:12 | |
shutting down RT, what I am
advocating is ensuring it abides by | 1:15:12 | 1:15:17 | |
the broadcasting rules and if it
doesn't, appropriate action is taken | 1:15:17 | 1:15:21 | |
every time, I would suggest, by
Ofcom. A further question, I would | 1:15:21 | 1:15:26 | |
like to know if the Minister is
happy with Ofcom's actions and | 1:15:26 | 1:15:31 | |
things if they do consistently
pursued RT for breaches in the wake | 1:15:31 | 1:15:36 | |
he would like them to. And the other
channels, which I would like Ofcom | 1:15:36 | 1:15:43 | |
to be more active in pursuing when
threats are made to the particular | 1:15:43 | 1:15:46 | |
community on some of the channels
that broadcast here. Is he happy | 1:15:46 | 1:15:50 | |
with the actions of Ofcom? | 1:15:50 | 1:15:56 | |
I do not think any British
parliamentarian should take money | 1:15:56 | 1:15:59 | |
from RT and I do not think they
should be appearing on RT. The only | 1:15:59 | 1:16:04 | |
exception to that rule might be if
they have a completely unedited, say | 1:16:04 | 1:16:11 | |
what they want, not going to get
chopped, edited, cut by RT. Apart | 1:16:11 | 1:16:17 | |
from that, I do not think anyone
here or in the House of Lords should | 1:16:17 | 1:16:22 | |
ever appear on that channel. The
only time RT ever contact me is when | 1:16:22 | 1:16:26 | |
I have said something critical about
the Government, I am happy to say | 1:16:26 | 1:16:30 | |
things critical about the Government
on the BBC, and RT are trying to | 1:16:30 | 1:16:35 | |
create an agenda about attacking the
Government at every turn, I will not | 1:16:35 | 1:16:39 | |
facilitate that process. The next
issue I want to touch briefly is | 1:16:39 | 1:16:44 | |
whether the Russians or infiltrating
or leaking content from political | 1:16:44 | 1:16:49 | |
party systems. We know what they did
in relation to the Democrats and | 1:16:49 | 1:16:54 | |
they also hurt the Republicans but
they only released the information | 1:16:54 | 1:16:58 | |
in relation to the Democrats -- they
also hacked. We know they attempted | 1:16:58 | 1:17:03 | |
to infiltrate Emmanuel Macron's team
setting up a number of websites with | 1:17:03 | 1:17:08 | |
pseudo- official titles that could
e-mail members of staff to try to | 1:17:08 | 1:17:12 | |
get them to click on links and
provide back door access to their | 1:17:12 | 1:17:18 | |
systems. I understand Macron
defeated that by inserting some fake | 1:17:18 | 1:17:22 | |
news into the content they were
trying to access so the story was | 1:17:22 | 1:17:26 | |
demolished because of the
inconsistencies within the story | 1:17:26 | 1:17:30 | |
itself. Of course, members will know
Macron had a more aggressive, more | 1:17:30 | 1:17:36 | |
muscular stance towards Russia than
any of the other political parties | 1:17:36 | 1:17:40 | |
in the French presidential election
and that is why I believe he was | 1:17:40 | 1:17:43 | |
targeted in the way the others were
not although I understand the other | 1:17:43 | 1:17:46 | |
French political parties were also
targeted but the Russians were | 1:17:46 | 1:17:55 | |
interested in releasing information
related to him in particular. Mr | 1:17:55 | 1:17:58 | |
Putin has said they are not
necessarily associated with the | 1:17:58 | 1:18:02 | |
government, patriotic hackers. But
one has to suspect they have got the | 1:18:02 | 1:18:12 | |
endorsement of the Russian
government because they could clamp | 1:18:12 | 1:18:16 | |
down on the so-called patriotic
hackers if they wanted to. I wanted | 1:18:16 | 1:18:19 | |
to ask the Minister, very easy
question, I'm trying to make them | 1:18:19 | 1:18:23 | |
clear so I know the box can provide
a written answer for the Minister to | 1:18:23 | 1:18:28 | |
read out on the record straightaway,
will the Minister give consideration | 1:18:28 | 1:18:31 | |
to making UK political parties part
of the critical national | 1:18:31 | 1:18:36 | |
infrastructure and the implications
of taking such a step? To be able to | 1:18:36 | 1:18:40 | |
ascertain what the level of threat
is, we do have to assess it | 1:18:40 | 1:18:45 | |
accurately. Otherwise I do risk
coming across as a conspiracy | 1:18:45 | 1:18:50 | |
theorist. I know I do already on
Brexit on that issue, but I do not | 1:18:50 | 1:18:55 | |
want to become the person known for
conspiracy theories. The difficulty | 1:18:55 | 1:19:01 | |
we have at the moment and it is
because frankly no one has | 1:19:01 | 1:19:06 | |
investigated it properly yet and it
is only one that has been done we | 1:19:06 | 1:19:09 | |
will know and I regret the fact it
took so long for the ISC to be | 1:19:09 | 1:19:15 | |
reconstituted, I welcome the fact
they have stated Russia will be the | 1:19:15 | 1:19:20 | |
topic they will focus on, but I
would like to ask the Minister | 1:19:20 | 1:19:23 | |
whether he thinks they should give
priority to that and also that he | 1:19:23 | 1:19:28 | |
would ensure or want them to work
effectively with the Electoral | 1:19:28 | 1:19:31 | |
Commission so that the Electoral
Commission cannot... The places | 1:19:31 | 1:19:39 | |
where they cannot go, the security
services or ISC can. An inquiry | 1:19:39 | 1:19:45 | |
would help us establish accurately
the level of threat. We know that | 1:19:45 | 1:19:48 | |
the Facebook... Picking up on the
earlier intervention, they have been | 1:19:48 | 1:19:54 | |
asked by the Electoral Commission to
look at examples of paid ads from | 1:19:54 | 1:19:58 | |
Russia but they were not asked to
look at the use of trolls or bots. | 1:19:58 | 1:20:05 | |
We know it is a very incomplete
richer. The Russians apparently | 1:20:05 | 1:20:13 | |
spent £17 50 on advertising, does
not quite sound right to me -- is | 1:20:13 | 1:20:18 | |
very incomplete picture. We are not
talking about a few Twitter or | 1:20:18 | 1:20:24 | |
Facebook accounts, in the case of
the David Jones account, more than | 1:20:24 | 1:20:29 | |
100,000 followers, listed as one of
the most influential Twitter | 1:20:29 | 1:20:33 | |
accounts in the last general
election, yet it purports to be from | 1:20:33 | 1:20:37 | |
Southampton and tweets at the
Russian time zone, surely the social | 1:20:37 | 1:20:43 | |
media companies have a greater role
to play in identifying fake accounts | 1:20:43 | 1:20:47 | |
for the integrity of the debate we
should all enjoy online? I agree | 1:20:47 | 1:20:52 | |
entirely and I do not know whether
she was but I think I have engaged | 1:20:52 | 1:20:57 | |
in exchanges with David Jones and I
clearly will not continue to do so | 1:20:57 | 1:21:00 | |
because he was a very prolific
tweeter, whatever he or she was, in | 1:21:00 | 1:21:07 | |
the campaign. As I understand,
according to Facebook, neither the | 1:21:07 | 1:21:13 | |
foreign & Commonwealth Office need a
-- or Number 10 have given advice as | 1:21:13 | 1:21:20 | |
to what to look for and if that is
correct, it is a concern. I hope the | 1:21:20 | 1:21:24 | |
Minister will concern. -- I hope the
Minister will respond. The Americans | 1:21:24 | 1:21:31 | |
looked up 47 accounts, provided to
the inquiry by intelligence agencies | 1:21:31 | 1:21:35 | |
and the member is right to say our
agencies have only offered I think | 1:21:35 | 1:21:40 | |
one. The other risk we have to be
careful or if there is money | 1:21:40 | 1:21:47 | |
transferred onshore, some of the
illicit money may have come from UK | 1:21:47 | 1:21:53 | |
onshore accounts. I thank him for
that intervention, another aspect of | 1:21:53 | 1:21:58 | |
this I will not be able to dwell on
at great length in the few minutes | 1:21:58 | 1:22:02 | |
that remain, but Facebook or doing
work on add transparency and I | 1:22:02 | 1:22:08 | |
welcome that and I would be
comfortable with the idea of having | 1:22:08 | 1:22:12 | |
a printed and published on that
political ads I place and I think | 1:22:12 | 1:22:17 | |
that would help people to understand
who was actually promoting | 1:22:17 | 1:22:19 | |
themselves. I wonder if the Minister
would support that particular | 1:22:19 | 1:22:25 | |
suggestion. And the issue of
authentication. On Twitter, I and I | 1:22:25 | 1:22:30 | |
suspect every member here is there
with a bluetit on Twitter, confirmed | 1:22:30 | 1:22:37 | |
as real people -- blue tick. And
maybe Facebook should do something | 1:22:37 | 1:22:46 | |
similar. So we know they are not
just sitting in an office block on | 1:22:46 | 1:22:52 | |
the outskirts of Moscow. We need to
resource our response appropriately | 1:22:52 | 1:22:59 | |
and I have concerns as a minister,
when I had dealings with the | 1:22:59 | 1:23:03 | |
Electoral Commission, they do not
have the resources to do this and if | 1:23:03 | 1:23:06 | |
they are trying to get into activity
abroad, clearly that is not within | 1:23:06 | 1:23:10 | |
their remit and they would not have
any expertise, so we need to see how | 1:23:10 | 1:23:15 | |
they can access that and the
Minister is nodding so hopefully | 1:23:15 | 1:23:18 | |
will be able to clarify. I hope he
is confident that the Electoral | 1:23:18 | 1:23:26 | |
Commission have the resources and
the expertise or can at least access | 1:23:26 | 1:23:29 | |
it. I give way. I'm grateful for him
giving way. Can I agree with him and | 1:23:29 | 1:23:36 | |
ask him to emphasise this point
about the resources to investigate? | 1:23:36 | 1:23:41 | |
There is a danger that we are
sidetracked into the social media | 1:23:41 | 1:23:45 | |
side of this one ultimately the more
important thing is the money. Does | 1:23:45 | 1:23:49 | |
he believe that the Electoral
Commission is sufficiently equipped, | 1:23:49 | 1:23:57 | |
resourced and empowered to properly
follow the money? To ascertain where | 1:23:57 | 1:24:02 | |
donations come from, whether the
original donors really own the money | 1:24:02 | 1:24:08 | |
and whether they need more powers or
the agencies and the Electoral | 1:24:08 | 1:24:16 | |
Commission together need more powers
to properly tracked the finance? My | 1:24:16 | 1:24:22 | |
short answer is, no, and clearly
that is something that needs to be | 1:24:22 | 1:24:25 | |
acted on. Not just political
parties, it is tracking the money | 1:24:25 | 1:24:30 | |
associated with political movements
in terms of the leave campaign or | 1:24:30 | 1:24:36 | |
perhaps Momentum, having some
clarity about whether money is | 1:24:36 | 1:24:39 | |
coming from and so on. We would all
benefit from that, if was more | 1:24:39 | 1:24:43 | |
transparency. I will give way... One
more time, quickly. Until we get a | 1:24:43 | 1:24:54 | |
change in mindset among these
bodies, additional resources will | 1:24:54 | 1:25:00 | |
not have the necessary impact, they
have got to have the will and | 1:25:00 | 1:25:06 | |
necessary policy framework and the
resources may follow that if they | 1:25:06 | 1:25:09 | |
are not sufficient and that applies
not just the Electoral Commission | 1:25:09 | 1:25:12 | |
but right the way across the
agencies of government. I thank him | 1:25:12 | 1:25:16 | |
for that and yes, I think this
debate is partly about giving them | 1:25:16 | 1:25:19 | |
the will and telling them they have
the backing of Parliament to take | 1:25:19 | 1:25:23 | |
the action needed. I will just
conclude by reading out the few | 1:25:23 | 1:25:27 | |
questions I had left for the
Minister. | 1:25:27 | 1:25:38 | |
Have been generous in taking
interventions. As I understand it, | 1:25:39 | 1:25:42 | |
the Government have not tasked the
intelligence and security services | 1:25:42 | 1:25:44 | |
to investigate Russian subversion as
a high priority, Russia are a tier | 1:25:44 | 1:25:46 | |
one threat but the strategy does not
mention defence against Russian | 1:25:46 | 1:25:49 | |
interference in our political
system, will he press for that to be | 1:25:49 | 1:25:52 | |
changed? On the funding of political
movements, does he agree that | 1:25:52 | 1:25:57 | |
financial and accountability for
political movements must be improved | 1:25:57 | 1:26:01 | |
as well? On the inquiry, will the
Minister confirm the UK Government | 1:26:01 | 1:26:06 | |
will proactively seek and supply any
relevant information to the inquiry, | 1:26:06 | 1:26:11 | |
rather than sitting and waiting to
be approached? And finally, social | 1:26:11 | 1:26:16 | |
media companies, they are indeed on
a positive side team to work with | 1:26:16 | 1:26:21 | |
governments to try to close some of
the loopholes we have referred to | 1:26:21 | 1:26:25 | |
today. I think we need to make sure
Russia are held publicly to account, | 1:26:25 | 1:26:29 | |
whether that is through Ofcom,
ministers confirming they know, as | 1:26:29 | 1:26:34 | |
they have done in relation to the
NHS hacking by North Korea, when | 1:26:34 | 1:26:38 | |
they know the Russians have been
actively hacking our systems, they | 1:26:38 | 1:26:42 | |
should make that clear. The ISC need
to come forward with the report. | 1:26:42 | 1:26:48 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been
very pleased to have the opportunity | 1:26:48 | 1:26:51 | |
to raise this debate and what I hope
is that the House will give the | 1:26:51 | 1:26:57 | |
Minister that if he needs to go away
and ensure that in respect of | 1:26:57 | 1:27:00 | |
government departments, it is an FCO
Cabinet Office and DC MS issue, that | 1:27:00 | 1:27:07 | |
is part of the problem, that they
will grab the bull by the horns and | 1:27:07 | 1:27:12 | |
make sure Russia, because of the
threat it prevents to the UK, is | 1:27:12 | 1:27:14 | |
dealt with with the degree of
seriousness that is required. The | 1:27:14 | 1:27:21 | |
question is that this House has
considered Russian interference in | 1:27:21 | 1:27:27 | |
UK politics and society. As Mr
Speaker said, there are a number of | 1:27:27 | 1:27:32 | |
colleagues wishing to contribute to
this debate and to the later debate | 1:27:32 | 1:27:37 | |
so I am afraid I am going to have to
impose an immediate five minute time | 1:27:37 | 1:27:44 | |
limit and I would urge colleagues to
be very aware that if they take | 1:27:44 | 1:27:48 | |
interventions, it is likely it
reduces the time for others. Damian | 1:27:48 | 1:27:51 | |
Collins. It is a pleasure to follow
the honourable member, I | 1:27:51 | 1:27:57 | |
congratulate him on security --
securing the debate. He raised many | 1:27:57 | 1:28:08 | |
points and I would be interesting to
hear what the Minister has to say | 1:28:08 | 1:28:11 | |
about the important questions later
on. This feels very timely to me | 1:28:11 | 1:28:17 | |
because on Tuesday, the Digital,
culture, media and sport select | 1:28:17 | 1:28:21 | |
committee held our first evidence
session on fake news and | 1:28:21 | 1:28:24 | |
dissemination, looking in particular
at Russian activity in Catalonia | 1:28:24 | 1:28:28 | |
around the referendum, some of my
staff tweeted a link on my Twitter | 1:28:28 | 1:28:35 | |
account where you could watch the
hearing, then according to an | 1:28:35 | 1:28:39 | |
article today, a Russian account
shared a link with the threat we | 1:28:39 | 1:28:46 | |
should be careful because we could
all be wiped out in a single stroke. | 1:28:46 | 1:28:49 | |
I do not know if that was the entire
nation or the select committee, | 1:28:49 | 1:28:55 | |
nevertheless, it was interesting. On
a previous occasion when I happen to | 1:28:55 | 1:28:57 | |
share a link with an interview I had
had with Hugo Rifkind, based on the | 1:28:57 | 1:29:02 | |
facts of the US Senate investigation
into Russian activity in the | 1:29:02 | 1:29:07 | |
presidential election, the official
Twitter account of the Russian | 1:29:07 | 1:29:09 | |
Embassy in London compared me to
Joseph Goebbels in seeking to spread | 1:29:09 | 1:29:14 | |
big lies about what Russia is doing.
Let us not be under any illusion, | 1:29:14 | 1:29:19 | |
not just anecdotally, but also in
terms of the systematic way Russia | 1:29:19 | 1:29:23 | |
is using information as a weapon of
war and seeking to intervene in the | 1:29:23 | 1:29:27 | |
democratic processes of other
countries. It is undermining people | 1:29:27 | 1:29:30 | |
was my confidence in public
institutions, causing division and | 1:29:30 | 1:29:34 | |
hatred and it is part of its
strategy of breaking down | 1:29:34 | 1:29:38 | |
cooperation between countries and
states in western Europe. That is | 1:29:38 | 1:29:41 | |
what Russia is doing. I want to
focus very specifically on the role | 1:29:41 | 1:29:46 | |
of the social media companies and
the way in which they are responding | 1:29:46 | 1:29:51 | |
to the different investigations. My
select committee wrote to Facebook | 1:29:51 | 1:29:54 | |
asking them for evidence, not just
of paid for advertising through the | 1:29:54 | 1:30:00 | |
service in the referendum and the
last general election here, we asked | 1:30:00 | 1:30:05 | |
them to identify activity by fake
accounts across all the platform as | 1:30:05 | 1:30:09 | |
well. Much of the activity in
America was based on pages set up to | 1:30:09 | 1:30:15 | |
promote links to sites where fake
news and disinformation was being | 1:30:15 | 1:30:19 | |
shared and also to organise fake
events as well. It is important we | 1:30:19 | 1:30:22 | |
understand the breadth of what is
being done. Facebook's response so | 1:30:22 | 1:30:26 | |
far is that only a tiny amount of
money... It isn't the based on | 1:30:26 | 1:30:34 | |
looking at the accounts identified
as part of the American | 1:30:34 | 1:30:37 | |
investigation. Those accounts
themselves were given to Facebook by | 1:30:37 | 1:30:41 | |
the US intelligence services.
Facebook had never proactively look | 1:30:41 | 1:30:44 | |
on their site for evidence of this
activity. Their position in this | 1:30:44 | 1:30:48 | |
country is they will not do that,
they will not, they are refusing to | 1:30:48 | 1:30:52 | |
conduct the research themselves. As
the member said, it must be possible | 1:30:52 | 1:30:59 | |
for them to look at the geographical
location of accounts, the | 1:30:59 | 1:31:03 | |
characteristics of accounts where
information is being shared from. | 1:31:03 | 1:31:07 | |
That is how they make money, you are
right. To understand how to target | 1:31:07 | 1:31:11 | |
users with information based on what
they think they are interested in. | 1:31:11 | 1:31:17 | |
They could conduct preliminary
research to look for the | 1:31:17 | 1:31:20 | |
characteristics of fake accounts
linked to Russian agencies based on | 1:31:20 | 1:31:23 | |
their platform and at the moment
they are refusing to. | 1:31:23 | 1:31:32 | |
Facebook quarterly money worth $4
billion. Marks a caller said | 1:31:32 | 1:31:49 | |
tackling this issue would hit the
bottom line. Facebook were only | 1:31:49 | 1:31:56 | |
responding to questions put by the
Electoral Commission. A narrower | 1:31:56 | 1:32:00 | |
focus because of the Riemann
Electoral Commission has. They are | 1:32:00 | 1:32:04 | |
not answering questions put to it as
give her more evidence regarding | 1:32:04 | 1:32:09 | |
Russian linked activity across the
site including in pages, Group | 1:32:09 | 1:32:14 | |
accounts and profiles, not just
restricted to advertising. We have a | 1:32:14 | 1:32:17 | |
right to receive information from
them and they can conduct research. | 1:32:17 | 1:32:21 | |
They conducted their own research
looking at fake accounts during the | 1:32:21 | 1:32:26 | |
French presidential election which
led to the deletion of 30,000 fake | 1:32:26 | 1:32:30 | |
accounts and profiles. If they can
do it in France, they can do it in | 1:32:30 | 1:32:34 | |
the UK. But at the moment they will
not do it. If their position is they | 1:32:34 | 1:32:39 | |
will only respond to official
intelligence directing them towards | 1:32:39 | 1:32:43 | |
fake activity, our intelligence
services need to be on the lookout, | 1:32:43 | 1:32:46 | |
if that is the open trigger to get
Facebook to act. The | 1:32:46 | 1:32:57 | |
national-security adviser said this
was not the main priority and indeed | 1:32:57 | 1:33:01 | |
just spoke generally about security
threats, would he agree this should | 1:33:01 | 1:33:05 | |
be the number one priority?
Absolutely, it must be a major | 1:33:05 | 1:33:10 | |
priority. We have to recognise
Russia is engaged in a multilayered | 1:33:10 | 1:33:14 | |
strategy to cause instability in the
West. Information and fake news is | 1:33:14 | 1:33:19 | |
one of the tools they use. In the
select committee this week, when you | 1:33:19 | 1:33:24 | |
look at the Catalan referendum,
Russian newsagents, RT and Sputnik | 1:33:24 | 1:33:29 | |
where the fourth largest sources of
information, all linking the | 1:33:29 | 1:33:34 | |
separatist cause. I grew up in
Germany and when we were referring | 1:33:34 | 1:33:46 | |
to Russia and funding German
terrorism at the time, we've seen as | 1:33:46 | 1:33:50 | |
paranoid fantasist. The wall came
down, our fears were reconfirmed | 1:33:50 | 1:33:58 | |
when the file is opened. It must be
a national recognition across the | 1:33:58 | 1:34:03 | |
board and people themselves need to
see this as a real threat. | 1:34:03 | 1:34:08 | |
Absolutely, people must take it as a
real threat. It's not enough for the | 1:34:08 | 1:34:12 | |
tech companies to sit back and say
we won't do anything unless you come | 1:34:12 | 1:34:15 | |
with the evidence. We're not
prepared to act will conduct their | 1:34:15 | 1:34:20 | |
own research. I don't believe as
rather individual users of these | 1:34:20 | 1:34:23 | |
platforms understand the way in
which they can be targeted and the | 1:34:23 | 1:34:26 | |
reason they the information they
receive. It creates confusing echo | 1:34:26 | 1:34:34 | |
chambers, and people are
systematically targeted. Not just | 1:34:34 | 1:34:36 | |
with fake news but partisan content
and it is being done by foreign | 1:34:36 | 1:34:42 | |
actors. If we don't see this as a
threat to the Democratic | 1:34:42 | 1:34:46 | |
institutions of this country, we are
deluded ourselves and the threat to | 1:34:46 | 1:34:50 | |
the Western way of life. Tech
companies need to do more. Same | 1:34:50 | 1:34:54 | |
issues apply to Twitter. They have
analysed accounts and information | 1:34:54 | 1:34:58 | |
given to it by the US intelligence
services. More work has been done | 1:34:58 | 1:35:03 | |
because it is more open platform and
because Facebook is close, it is | 1:35:03 | 1:35:08 | |
not. The tech companies need to do
more and it has to be a higher | 1:35:08 | 1:35:17 | |
priority for the intelligence
services as well. It gives me a | 1:35:17 | 1:35:23 | |
enormous pleasure to follow the
honourable gentleman, let me commend | 1:35:23 | 1:35:26 | |
him for the work he's doing. I wrote
to his committee at the beginning of | 1:35:26 | 1:35:30 | |
the suggesting such an enquiry and I
am delighted they doing one. When I | 1:35:30 | 1:35:36 | |
started asking questions about this
I was treated as a bit of a crank. | 1:35:36 | 1:35:39 | |
But I am pleased to say we have
multiple investigations and | 1:35:39 | 1:35:43 | |
enquiries, including that of the
Honourable members committee. We | 1:35:43 | 1:35:50 | |
have multiple investigations by the
Electoral Commission we have the | 1:35:50 | 1:35:52 | |
molar investigation. What strikes me
and worries me about this, they are | 1:35:52 | 1:35:57 | |
independent Parliamentary bodies.
They knock the government, | 1:35:57 | 1:36:03 | |
responsible for maintaining our
security and defence is on the | 1:36:03 | 1:36:05 | |
government has the power to get to
the truth and the bottom of all of | 1:36:05 | 1:36:08 | |
this. I will restrict all of my
marks because I put a lot of the | 1:36:08 | 1:36:14 | |
evidence in the public domain. I do
hope the Minister will address and | 1:36:14 | 1:36:19 | |
explain what seems to be the
government's in in dealing with | 1:36:19 | 1:36:25 | |
this, why aren't the government
dealing with this themselves, while | 1:36:25 | 1:36:31 | |
leaving it to others. The central
question which has been raised, has | 1:36:31 | 1:36:39 | |
the government tasks to our
intelligence and security services | 1:36:39 | 1:36:43 | |
with investigating Russian
subversion as a high priority? The | 1:36:43 | 1:36:46 | |
information I have is that the
government has not. If that is the | 1:36:46 | 1:36:51 | |
case, why not? If Bush is classified
as a Tier one threat but the 6-point | 1:36:51 | 1:36:57 | |
National Security strategy doesn't
mention defence against Russian | 1:36:57 | 1:37:00 | |
interference in our political
system, it's not good enough. I | 1:37:00 | 1:37:04 | |
would be grateful if the Minister
could listen to these questions or | 1:37:04 | 1:37:08 | |
his officials can so they can pass
him the answers. What is the | 1:37:08 | 1:37:11 | |
government doing to support the work
of the committee and his robust | 1:37:11 | 1:37:16 | |
response to the inadequate response
from the tech companies, showing | 1:37:16 | 1:37:20 | |
nothing short of contempt for
Parliament. He needs a government | 1:37:20 | 1:37:24 | |
and intelligence services to support
the important work he's doing. What | 1:37:24 | 1:37:29 | |
is the government itself doing to
get the tech companies to reveal ad | 1:37:29 | 1:37:34 | |
purchases and make it easier to
block social media accounts? What | 1:37:34 | 1:37:41 | |
discussion has UK had with UK media
companies with the voluntary | 1:37:41 | 1:37:45 | |
agreement reached in France not to
report materials that had been | 1:37:45 | 1:37:50 | |
accessed by illegal hacking. What
cooperation is the government giving | 1:37:50 | 1:37:55 | |
the enquiry? When the Foreign
Secretary last answered a question | 1:37:55 | 1:37:58 | |
for me on this, he said he had
received no request for help from | 1:37:58 | 1:38:02 | |
Muller. Given several of the senior
figures who have been indicted by | 1:38:02 | 1:38:08 | |
Muller, conducted their central
activities in Britain. It is | 1:38:08 | 1:38:12 | |
unbelievable and inconceivable to
me, that there could not have been | 1:38:12 | 1:38:16 | |
contacts between the US
investigators and authorities and | 1:38:16 | 1:38:20 | |
the British authorities. So either
our own agencies are not keeping the | 1:38:20 | 1:38:24 | |
Foreign Secretary in the loop or he
missed -- misspoke in his reply to | 1:38:24 | 1:38:33 | |
me. I have tabled several written
questions about contacts between | 1:38:33 | 1:38:39 | |
government ministers and the
Institute which are still | 1:38:39 | 1:38:42 | |
outstanding and I will be grateful
if the Minister could chase of | 1:38:42 | 1:38:46 | |
replies. Will he, or will he ask our
intelligence and security services | 1:38:46 | 1:38:50 | |
to look into the roles of Vladimir
Antonov, the subject of an EU arrest | 1:38:50 | 1:38:54 | |
warrant and on to Rome and above,
and any relationship they may have | 1:38:54 | 1:38:58 | |
had in the past with the former Ukip
leader, Nigel Farage. Though he also | 1:38:58 | 1:39:04 | |
care to comment on reports that
broke just before this debate | 1:39:04 | 1:39:08 | |
started, that a man arrested in
Ukraine, suspected of being a | 1:39:08 | 1:39:14 | |
Russian spy, was photographed with
our Prime Minister in Downing Street | 1:39:14 | 1:39:16 | |
just back in the summer. Finally, as
already mentioned, this is one for | 1:39:16 | 1:39:22 | |
the party leaders and the whips. But
surely, it's time for British | 1:39:22 | 1:39:27 | |
politicians to stop making idiots of
themselves, by appearing on and | 1:39:27 | 1:39:32 | |
taking money from Kremlin propaganda
outfits like Russia today or | 1:39:32 | 1:39:36 | |
Sputnik. It pains me to say there
are still some of these useful | 1:39:36 | 1:39:44 | |
idiots on the left in British and
international politics. My message | 1:39:44 | 1:39:48 | |
to them is, Russia is a nasty,
nationalistic, ultraconservative, | 1:39:48 | 1:39:54 | |
corrupt clapped off pushy, it is
racist and homophobic and makes in a | 1:39:54 | 1:39:59 | |
secret of wanting to undermine our
democracy. If this debate is nothing | 1:39:59 | 1:40:03 | |
but give the government a bit of
warmth in tackling this threat I get | 1:40:03 | 1:40:08 | |
some reality in our political
discourse, it will be up useful | 1:40:08 | 1:40:14 | |
debate indeed. We're coming up to
Christmas which marks the birth of | 1:40:14 | 1:40:19 | |
Christ and the bringing of hope to
mankind. But we had the dissolution | 1:40:19 | 1:40:26 | |
of the Soviet Union on the 26th of
December 19 91. When I was elected, | 1:40:26 | 1:40:32 | |
270 people lived under direct rule
in elections of any real value of | 1:40:32 | 1:40:37 | |
the Soviet Union and a further 137
million in the other countries in | 1:40:37 | 1:40:42 | |
the Eastern bloc of Europe. On the
26th of December 1991, Gorbachev | 1:40:42 | 1:40:48 | |
went on television to announce this
long nightmare was over. As he went | 1:40:48 | 1:40:51 | |
in to sign, the dissolution of the
Soviet Union, his pen didn't work | 1:40:51 | 1:40:57 | |
and he had to borrow a working pen
of a CNN camera crew filming the | 1:40:57 | 1:41:01 | |
event. We should believe in the
Southern tree of Nations, the | 1:41:01 | 1:41:06 | |
principle of non-interference, it in
the internal affairs of other | 1:41:06 | 1:41:10 | |
nations. We should be proud of the
park this country played in the | 1:41:10 | 1:41:14 | |
downfall of the USSR and communism
in Europe. Alongside Saint Paul II, | 1:41:14 | 1:41:21 | |
Margaret Thatcher and President
Reagan, we were instrumental in | 1:41:21 | 1:41:27 | |
disbanding totalitarianism. At the
same time, the current Leader of the | 1:41:27 | 1:41:31 | |
Opposition and the Shadow Home
Secretary were going on motorbike | 1:41:31 | 1:41:34 | |
tours of East Germany. If he might
have been accused of interfering in | 1:41:34 | 1:41:39 | |
the internal affairs of the Soviet
Union, we can be proud of it. In | 1:41:39 | 1:41:43 | |
those years, there were dozens and
dozens of Soviet defections of | 1:41:43 | 1:41:48 | |
eastern Germany and Poland, they
were posing a direct threat to our | 1:41:48 | 1:41:51 | |
freedom and democracy. But here, we
are talking about alleged Russian | 1:41:51 | 1:41:58 | |
interference in UK politics and
society. We hear things like | 1:41:58 | 1:42:03 | |
undermining our democracy. Can we
look at the evidence. The Oxford | 1:42:03 | 1:42:08 | |
Internet Institute... I will give
way. Hasn't the current head of the | 1:42:08 | 1:42:15 | |
SSB only this week outlined that in
fact they see themselves as the | 1:42:15 | 1:42:20 | |
spiritual heirs of the checker and
the KGB. Doesn't that tell you all | 1:42:20 | 1:42:24 | |
you need to know about them. I am
not seeking to defend the Putin | 1:42:24 | 1:42:32 | |
regime, there is so much in Russia
that is not perfect. I was a member | 1:42:32 | 1:42:38 | |
of the presidential elections, it is
not a perfect democracy, but let's | 1:42:38 | 1:42:42 | |
keep a sense of proportion. So much
progress has been made, Russia is an | 1:42:42 | 1:42:47 | |
infinitely freer and better place
than it was under the Soviet Union. | 1:42:47 | 1:42:52 | |
But it's not perfect, it's not
pleasant and it's not all sort of | 1:42:52 | 1:42:56 | |
democracy and I do not defend the
Putin regime, but I want to get a | 1:42:56 | 1:43:01 | |
sense of proportion in this debased
and look at the evidence from the | 1:43:01 | 1:43:06 | |
Oxford Internet Institute, part of
Oxford University. They into | 1:43:06 | 1:43:11 | |
investigated over 100 Russian linked
Twitter account in the run-up to the | 1:43:11 | 1:43:15 | |
EU referendum. The results are worth
noting. They found, first, that | 1:43:15 | 1:43:20 | |
Russian Twitter accounts shared with
the public, contributed little to | 1:43:20 | 1:43:26 | |
the overall Brexit conversation.
Russian news content was not widely | 1:43:26 | 1:43:31 | |
shared among Twitter users. And only
a tiny proportion of YouTube content | 1:43:31 | 1:43:37 | |
was of clear Russian origin. The
fact is, the majority of the UK | 1:43:37 | 1:43:43 | |
population, by a significant extent,
is not on Twitter. I am familiar | 1:43:43 | 1:43:49 | |
with the study he is referring to,
but that is narrowly focused and | 1:43:49 | 1:43:55 | |
there is the evidence of 13,000 Bots
accounts on Twitter link to Russia | 1:43:55 | 1:44:02 | |
that were deleted shortly after the
referendum. Read the technical | 1:44:02 | 1:44:07 | |
companies to be co-operating fully
so we can understand the scale of | 1:44:07 | 1:44:11 | |
it. Of course we must keep a sense
of proportion but I'm quoting from a | 1:44:11 | 1:44:17 | |
well established Institute. I want
to give another point of view, which | 1:44:17 | 1:44:20 | |
is fair enough in this debate. The
majority of the UK population are | 1:44:20 | 1:44:25 | |
not on Twitter. And of those users,
they don't even login daily. | 1:44:25 | 1:44:30 | |
Facebook did an investigation into
the tourist Russian control factor, | 1:44:30 | 1:44:36 | |
called the Internet research agency
and they found this. If this is the | 1:44:36 | 1:44:42 | |
best Russia can do to overturn our
longer established parliamentary | 1:44:42 | 1:44:47 | |
democracy, I think probably that we
can rest at ease. No, I am going to | 1:44:47 | 1:44:53 | |
finish now. The paranoid tendency to
see a red under every bed is very | 1:44:53 | 1:44:58 | |
much alive. There is an explanation.
There is an explanation for this | 1:44:58 | 1:45:03 | |
paranoia. 'S victory, the success of
Brexit in the referendum. Things are | 1:45:03 | 1:45:09 | |
not going the way of liberals and
they cannot accept that people, the | 1:45:09 | 1:45:15 | |
workers even, the workers are
abandoning their ideology. Presuming | 1:45:15 | 1:45:19 | |
they ever agreed with it. | 1:45:19 | 1:45:26 | |
The left has a psychological need to
find an excuse for why do people are | 1:45:26 | 1:45:30 | |
misbehaving. I will not give way.
Russia is that excuse today. Perhaps | 1:45:30 | 1:45:36 | |
the reality is the voters might not
agree with the established liberal | 1:45:36 | 1:45:41 | |
consensus on Brexit, perhaps voters
in Britain, America, Poland, | 1:45:41 | 1:45:46 | |
elsewhere, they have legitimate
concerns they feel are not being | 1:45:46 | 1:45:49 | |
addressed, these concerns must be
addressed and we in this House must | 1:45:49 | 1:45:53 | |
be the ones to address them. This
was the wisdom shown by Disraeli and | 1:45:53 | 1:45:58 | |
others in expanding the electorate,
this is the British constitution | 1:45:58 | 1:46:06 | |
that adapts, evolves and bends
instead of breaking. The fact is the | 1:46:06 | 1:46:09 | |
referendum was a free and fair vote
of the British people and if there | 1:46:09 | 1:46:12 | |
was foreign interference, it was so
ineffective, I doubt it made any | 1:46:12 | 1:46:17 | |
difference at all to the final
result. It was not the work, Madam | 1:46:17 | 1:46:23 | |
Deputy Speaker, of foreigners
somewhere distant plugging at | 1:46:23 | 1:46:28 | |
computers and unleashing Twitter
bots, authority comes from above but | 1:46:28 | 1:46:32 | |
power comes from below and it came
from the people. If we do not | 1:46:32 | 1:46:36 | |
accommodate the legitimate concerns
of ordinary people, we undermine the | 1:46:36 | 1:46:41 | |
foundations of our parliamentary
democracy. We might find ourselves | 1:46:41 | 1:46:44 | |
replaced and irrelevant, as Carl
Gorbachev did in 1991. -- as | 1:46:44 | 1:46:54 | |
Gorbachev did. There has always been
a group of people on the left of | 1:46:54 | 1:46:57 | |
British politics who were useful
idiots for authoritarian communism, | 1:46:57 | 1:47:05 | |
that included people who on many
other issues were very sensible, I | 1:47:05 | 1:47:09 | |
refer to Soviet communism and new
civilisation is written in 1930. | 1:47:09 | 1:47:19 | |
There have also been a group of
people on the far right in British | 1:47:19 | 1:47:22 | |
politics who are admirers of the
strong leader and the national | 1:47:22 | 1:47:29 | |
identity and the patriotic purpose
of the Russian or in the Soviet | 1:47:29 | 1:47:38 | |
regime. They loved Uncle Joe and
today many like Vladimir Putin. | 1:47:38 | 1:47:43 | |
Putin has over recent years tried to
develop a relationship with various | 1:47:43 | 1:47:49 | |
groups within Europe for his own
national interest and ideological | 1:47:49 | 1:47:55 | |
goals. He has used in that process a
man, and ideologist, from the far | 1:47:55 | 1:48:03 | |
right who has connections with the
American Bob Wright and also had | 1:48:03 | 1:48:07 | |
connections with people including
Nick Griffin, Nigel Farage, Marine | 1:48:07 | 1:48:15 | |
Le Pen -- with the American alt
right. They attended conferences in | 1:48:15 | 1:48:21 | |
Russia. You can read the file
ideology he has tried to create some | 1:48:21 | 1:48:30 | |
kind of Eurasian monolith based upon
authoritarian ideology and crushing | 1:48:30 | 1:48:42 | |
religious minorities -- the vile
ideology. That is the point at the | 1:48:42 | 1:48:47 | |
essence of the Russian state, how is
it going to develop? Putin has used | 1:48:47 | 1:48:55 | |
this man and at one point, he was
referred to as Putin's Rasputin. I | 1:48:55 | 1:49:02 | |
think there's some concern in many
other European countries about this | 1:49:02 | 1:49:10 | |
kind of work. The European
Parliament on the 25th of November, | 1:49:10 | 1:49:17 | |
2016 carried a resolution by a very
large majority referring to Russia | 1:49:17 | 1:49:22 | |
using a wide range of tools to
challenge democratic values and | 1:49:22 | 1:49:27 | |
divide Europe. We have seen
different tools used at the | 1:49:27 | 1:49:33 | |
interference in the elections that
has already been mentioned, plus the | 1:49:33 | 1:49:40 | |
attempted coup in Montenegro, the
way in which the Hungarian regime | 1:49:40 | 1:49:46 | |
has been given support financially
by various forms of investment, and | 1:49:46 | 1:49:52 | |
I geologically, it then acts as a
Trojan horse in the EU against | 1:49:52 | 1:49:59 | |
actions on Russia because of the
invasion and annexation of Ukraine | 1:49:59 | 1:50:03 | |
-- and ideological. I will give way.
I thank him for his -- him | 1:50:03 | 1:50:15 | |
generously giving way. I believe it
is important to be aware of | 1:50:15 | 1:50:19 | |
beginnings. I was celebrating the
fall of the Berlin Wall, living | 1:50:19 | 1:50:22 | |
through cold war Germany, and I
hoped Russia had changed, but only a | 1:50:22 | 1:50:27 | |
year ago, I went back, I talk to
people who told me that | 1:50:27 | 1:50:30 | |
unfortunately Russia was now facing
the same threats and the same | 1:50:30 | 1:50:35 | |
problems they had faced in the cold
War. Order. The honourable lady | 1:50:35 | 1:50:42 | |
needs to make a brief intervention,
there is a lot of pressure on time. | 1:50:42 | 1:50:49 | |
Yes, absolutely. The idea that there
is this fantastic, miraculous | 1:50:49 | 1:50:55 | |
transformation in 1989, 1990, it is
sadly not the case. There is an | 1:50:55 | 1:51:04 | |
authoritarian kleptocracy was the
word used earlier, there is a regime | 1:51:04 | 1:51:07 | |
where the leaders of the opposition
are locked up, where journalists | 1:51:07 | 1:51:15 | |
disappear or are killed, where
polonium is used to murder people on | 1:51:15 | 1:51:21 | |
the streets of London, and were the
Russian regime, the Russian | 1:51:21 | 1:51:30 | |
government, it is not a democracy in
any sense we understand it, | 1:51:30 | 1:51:33 | |
everybody knows that Vladimir Putin
is going to be president until 2024. | 1:51:33 | 1:51:40 | |
And everybody knows that there is a
regime there which will continue. | 1:51:40 | 1:51:46 | |
That is not democracy and there are
very serious flaws about that | 1:51:46 | 1:51:54 | |
society, but what is more serious is
the attempt to undermine cohesion | 1:51:54 | 1:52:01 | |
and its sow discord among Europeans
and within our society. In the time | 1:52:01 | 1:52:07 | |
left to me, I just referred to the
kind of tweets put out by the | 1:52:07 | 1:52:12 | |
Russian Embassy. They had the
European Union stockade on fire and | 1:52:12 | 1:52:21 | |
the giant Russian bear and the flag
flying over the European Union | 1:52:21 | 1:52:25 | |
stockade was the LGBT flag which
tells you all you need to know about | 1:52:25 | 1:52:32 | |
the ideology of the Russian
government and the Russian state. | 1:52:32 | 1:52:35 | |
These are not fringe elements, this
is the core of the government. I | 1:52:35 | 1:52:42 | |
refer members to the Foreign Affairs
Select Committee report in the last | 1:52:42 | 1:52:46 | |
Parliament published in March and
the Government's response to it, and | 1:52:46 | 1:52:51 | |
we have got to look seriously at
these questions. I do a lot of | 1:52:51 | 1:52:55 | |
tweets and I get quite a lot of
trolls. You can identify some of | 1:52:55 | 1:53:00 | |
them by the fact they have eight
numbers after the name because they | 1:53:00 | 1:53:05 | |
are produced by algorithms and they
come out very odd times in the night | 1:53:05 | 1:53:09 | |
and I often tweet back, what is the
weather like in Moscow? All of us | 1:53:09 | 1:53:15 | |
need to realise they are trying to
interfere in our politics, they are | 1:53:15 | 1:53:21 | |
trying to create discord and we need
to be vigilant and the Government | 1:53:21 | 1:53:25 | |
must do much more. I congratulate
the honourable gentleman of course | 1:53:25 | 1:53:33 | |
Fulton on obtaining this debate.
There are some very serious issues | 1:53:33 | 1:53:37 | |
to discuss and to bring into the
public domain -- Carshalton. We need | 1:53:37 | 1:53:43 | |
to keep a sense of proportion. I
agree with the honourable gentleman | 1:53:43 | 1:53:48 | |
for Ilford South that Russia has not
fundamentally changed its character | 1:53:48 | 1:53:52 | |
since the days of the tsar and it
has always been somewhat paranoid | 1:53:52 | 1:53:56 | |
about the outside world aggressively
defensive and we are seeing the same | 1:53:56 | 1:54:03 | |
characteristics today. I am afraid
to describe the, as he put it, kind | 1:54:03 | 1:54:09 | |
of tweets coming out of the Russian
Embassy in the same terms as the | 1:54:09 | 1:54:12 | |
threat we were facing in the cold
War, it is getting things a little | 1:54:12 | 1:54:17 | |
out of proportion. There are serious
issues here but I think we should | 1:54:17 | 1:54:21 | |
discuss them responsibly and I want
to explain what I mean by that. I am | 1:54:21 | 1:54:26 | |
very reluctant to take up extra
time. Briefly. They are not | 1:54:26 | 1:54:32 | |
understanding all the way through
Russia has a full spectrum response, | 1:54:32 | 1:54:36 | |
they have all the stuff in the
cultural areas in the cold War, has | 1:54:36 | 1:54:42 | |
he noticed the size of the recent
exercises in the Baltics that Russia | 1:54:42 | 1:54:47 | |
conducted? They do not see it as
different, part of a full spectrum | 1:54:47 | 1:54:51 | |
approach. I completely agree. But
the fact is, today's Russia is a | 1:54:51 | 1:55:00 | |
shadow of the former power of the
former is the union. I will very | 1:55:00 | 1:55:03 | |
briefly. One important difference.
Although the conventional weaponry | 1:55:03 | 1:55:09 | |
has been somewhat hollowed out,
significant investment is going into | 1:55:09 | 1:55:12 | |
it, and there is significant
investment in active measures and | 1:55:12 | 1:55:18 | |
the largest nuclear arsenal.
Russia's destructive power is no | 1:55:18 | 1:55:23 | |
less than before, it has lost
conventional power, but it makes the | 1:55:23 | 1:55:29 | |
situation more unstable. I concur
with what my honourable friend is | 1:55:29 | 1:55:32 | |
saying but we need to keep this
cyber warfare into perspective, | 1:55:32 | 1:55:37 | |
particularly in terms of political
interference. The committee I chair | 1:55:37 | 1:55:43 | |
produced a report on lessons learnt
in the EU referendum in March, 2017, | 1:55:43 | 1:55:47 | |
and it touches on this issue, in
fact, well in advance of the | 1:55:47 | 1:55:52 | |
honourable gentleman for exit or, if
I may say. It will also conduct a | 1:55:52 | 1:55:58 | |
post-2017 general election inquiry
and we will continue looking into | 1:55:58 | 1:56:01 | |
these issues and I should declare a
tangential interest, I was a | 1:56:01 | 1:56:07 | |
director of folk leave at the time
of the referendum and I can attest | 1:56:07 | 1:56:11 | |
we were aware of a certain amount of
odd looking cyber activity -- vote | 1:56:11 | 1:56:15 | |
leave. We speculated the crash of
the online voter registration system | 1:56:15 | 1:56:19 | |
was the result of a cyber attack.
This was disputed by the Government | 1:56:19 | 1:56:24 | |
and it continues to be disputed but
whether or not it is true, the | 1:56:24 | 1:56:28 | |
Government needs to create a more
resilient system. The report | 1:56:28 | 1:56:31 | |
highlighted the need not only to
consider the potential for foreign | 1:56:31 | 1:56:36 | |
interference in elections or
referendums, but to examine its real | 1:56:36 | 1:56:40 | |
nature of this potential
interference. We found that while | 1:56:40 | 1:56:44 | |
the UK and US understanding of cyber
this predominantly technical, | 1:56:44 | 1:56:50 | |
Russian and Chinese use what is
turned as a cognitive approach based | 1:56:50 | 1:56:57 | |
on understanding mass psychology and
how to exploit the fears of | 1:56:57 | 1:56:59 | |
individuals -- what is termed. That
is to say, they are less interested | 1:56:59 | 1:57:05 | |
in the apparent intended effects of
their activities, whether or not | 1:57:05 | 1:57:08 | |
they alter the balance of the debate
or affect people's voting intentions | 1:57:08 | 1:57:14 | |
is entirely secondary, they are much
more interested in being seen to be | 1:57:14 | 1:57:17 | |
able to do what they do, they want
to be seen tweeting the face of the | 1:57:17 | 1:57:24 | |
West, flaunting their capabilities,
acting illegally, proving what they | 1:57:24 | 1:57:27 | |
can do, and that we cannot stop
them. They want us to react and it | 1:57:27 | 1:57:32 | |
is somewhat of a dilemma, they want
us to hold debates like this, | 1:57:32 | 1:57:38 | |
resident Putin is manipulating this
debate, he will be chortling in the | 1:57:38 | 1:57:43 | |
Kremlin that we are discussing these
matters and putting Russia sank | 1:57:43 | 1:57:48 | |
Saturn -- putting Russia
centrestage. It is also important | 1:57:48 | 1:57:56 | |
that they can report this to their
domestic audience, as evidence, | 1:57:56 | 1:58:01 | |
however incredible it may seem to
us, of their power and influence in | 1:58:01 | 1:58:05 | |
the world. This has clear
implications in relation to what we | 1:58:05 | 1:58:09 | |
understand the cyber attack to be on
the nature of such cyber attacks and | 1:58:09 | 1:58:13 | |
how we respond both physically and
politically. I commend the Prime | 1:58:13 | 1:58:18 | |
Minister for adopting a tough stance
on this, I commend the establishment | 1:58:18 | 1:58:21 | |
of the 2016 national cyber security
centre, but we do need to use this | 1:58:21 | 1:58:29 | |
work to understand better what the
real motivations are. The Government | 1:58:29 | 1:58:34 | |
published its response to the report
on the EU referendum yesterday in a | 1:58:34 | 1:58:38 | |
command paper and I welcome that.
The Government says it is taking the | 1:58:38 | 1:58:42 | |
issue of cyber security extremely
seriously, the centre played an | 1:58:42 | 1:58:47 | |
important role in monitoring key
systems for unusual activity in the | 1:58:47 | 1:58:51 | |
run-up to the 2017 general election,
and the Cabinet Office also convened | 1:58:51 | 1:58:56 | |
a dedicated monitoring and response
throughout the election period to | 1:58:56 | 1:59:00 | |
ensure any risks emerging in the
immediate run-up to and during the | 1:59:00 | 1:59:04 | |
election were coordinated
effectively. In its response to the | 1:59:04 | 1:59:07 | |
report, the Government says it will
continue to work closely with the | 1:59:07 | 1:59:10 | |
Electoral Commission and the
Association of Electoral | 1:59:10 | 1:59:13 | |
Administrators to continue to assess
the threat to the UK's democratic | 1:59:13 | 1:59:17 | |
process to implement further
measures to mitigate the risk. What | 1:59:17 | 1:59:20 | |
we can be assured of in terms of the
paper-based voter system, it is much | 1:59:20 | 1:59:24 | |
more difficult to manipulate than an
electronic voting system. But we | 1:59:24 | 1:59:31 | |
remain vulnerable to the broader
attempt to use social media as a | 1:59:31 | 1:59:36 | |
platform of influence. Further
consideration should be given to the | 1:59:36 | 1:59:38 | |
Electoral Commission's
recommendation in 2014 that the law | 1:59:38 | 1:59:41 | |
be changed to ensure online
advertising would have an equivalent | 1:59:41 | 1:59:49 | |
to print. How you control offshore
operators is extremely government | 1:59:49 | 1:59:54 | |
Billy Booker difficult. I would
encourage the government to include | 1:59:54 | 1:59:58 | |
an analysis of key actors and the
level of threat they really | 1:59:58 | 2:00:01 | |
represent and I would encourage them
to ensure the work is translated | 2:00:01 | 2:00:04 | |
into an effective and coordinated
response and further to our report, | 2:00:04 | 2:00:09 | |
I call on the Government again to
commit to presenting annual reports | 2:00:09 | 2:00:13 | |
to Parliament on these matters. But
we must avoid the temptation to | 2:00:13 | 2:00:19 | |
overreact, to start suggesting that
there have been massive changes to | 2:00:19 | 2:00:23 | |
public opinion created by this
relatively tiny amount of social | 2:00:23 | 2:00:27 | |
media activity, otherwise we are
playing into exactly what they want, | 2:00:27 | 2:00:31 | |
we are questioning the very
processes that they want to have | 2:00:31 | 2:00:37 | |
questioned, the questions they want
to generate, and we must avoid doing | 2:00:37 | 2:00:40 | |
that because it is completely
unnecessary. | 2:00:40 | 2:00:48 | |
This is an important debate and I
congratulate the honourable member | 2:00:48 | 2:00:51 | |
for securing the debate. The world
is interdependent in a way it has | 2:00:51 | 2:00:57 | |
never been before and it is
understandable how this creates | 2:00:57 | 2:01:01 | |
insecurity and uncertainty. We are
now looking for solace in identity | 2:01:01 | 2:01:11 | |
politics and national becomes a
plaything of populace. Facebook and | 2:01:11 | 2:01:14 | |
Twitter have become the populist
perfect dwelling place where the | 2:01:14 | 2:01:20 | |
world can be exposed in an advert
form and bite sized chunks. Media is | 2:01:20 | 2:01:28 | |
just as likely to be used in
spreading lies and quackery of all | 2:01:28 | 2:01:32 | |
descriptions. Facebook admits a
third of the US electorate have seen | 2:01:32 | 2:01:39 | |
Russian promoted this information
during the presidential election. In | 2:01:39 | 2:01:44 | |
the Sunday Times in October, General
Lancaster in an investigation into | 2:01:44 | 2:01:49 | |
Facebook said, of Russia's use of
the media, its involvement focused | 2:01:49 | 2:01:55 | |
on America's fragmentation and
started to exacerbate the country's | 2:01:55 | 2:02:00 | |
social and political divides. It
targeted focus on what it already | 2:02:00 | 2:02:06 | |
knew people thought I gave them more
of the same. He goes on to say, used | 2:02:06 | 2:02:12 | |
falsehoods knowing the company had
no interest in reading them out, | 2:02:12 | 2:02:16 | |
manipulated feelings, and people
behind the campaign are doing a | 2:02:16 | 2:02:20 | |
better job of studying Facebook fan
anyone in government. So Russia, it | 2:02:20 | 2:02:29 | |
would seem our experts are using
social media to twist arguments to | 2:02:29 | 2:02:34 | |
feed the populace and cause
division. The investigations by | 2:02:34 | 2:02:41 | |
journalists from the Guardian
revealed the links between Russian | 2:02:41 | 2:02:46 | |
involvement in Brexit, referendum
and the UK society in general. We | 2:02:46 | 2:02:49 | |
have thousands of Twitter accounts
to based in Russia that were | 2:02:49 | 2:02:53 | |
activated during the Brexit
referendum. Now there is an | 2:02:53 | 2:03:01 | |
investigation about the true origin
of its funding. Other speakers can | 2:03:01 | 2:03:06 | |
go into better detail about that but
I wanted to mention other things | 2:03:06 | 2:03:08 | |
about what Putin's intentions are.
He wants to promote nationalist | 2:03:08 | 2:03:14 | |
parties which could lead to the
fragmentation and fracture of | 2:03:14 | 2:03:18 | |
European states and institutions,
but is prepared to ignore the | 2:03:18 | 2:03:22 | |
sovereignty of other countries, such
as Ukraine. He will use every device | 2:03:22 | 2:03:26 | |
at his disposal to make sure his
opponents are divided, discontented | 2:03:26 | 2:03:30 | |
and grievances are fed and he knows
to play the tune of identity | 2:03:30 | 2:03:34 | |
politics. One of the reasons I was
so opposed to Brexit is that by | 2:03:34 | 2:03:39 | |
leaving the EU we were playing the
Russian's game for them. I divided | 2:03:39 | 2:03:47 | |
economic union on Russia's doorstep
would do them nicely. That is where | 2:03:47 | 2:03:49 | |
we find ourselves. For my work on
the Defence Select Committee as | 2:03:49 | 2:03:54 | |
well, we worry about what will
happen with our commitment and | 2:03:54 | 2:03:59 | |
Trump's commitment to Nato. Our
ability as a nation to defend itself | 2:03:59 | 2:04:06 | |
adequately as we pursue a more
independent defence strategy because | 2:04:06 | 2:04:10 | |
of Leith in some secured as we can
secure an independent trade | 2:04:10 | 2:04:19 | |
strategy, and we need to ensure our
trade links in a global trading | 2:04:19 | 2:04:23 | |
power. The defence strategy expert I
talk to have said we cannot | 2:04:23 | 2:04:32 | |
contribute to the country the way we
do to Nato, whilst pursuing an | 2:04:32 | 2:04:37 | |
independent defence strategy, we
cannot do both together because we | 2:04:37 | 2:04:39 | |
cannot afford to do both. That is
another win the Putin. What Putin | 2:04:39 | 2:04:47 | |
wants to see is the great
unravelling of old alliances, | 2:04:47 | 2:04:52 | |
International institutions, to his
benefit. We cannot allow that to | 2:04:52 | 2:04:55 | |
happen because what is at risk, I
believe, is our way of life. Liberal | 2:04:55 | 2:05:00 | |
democracy is being challenged in a
way I do not thing has been | 2:05:00 | 2:05:03 | |
challenged since the 1930s. I do not
believe Putin wants a military | 2:05:03 | 2:05:09 | |
conflict, but in the 21st century
there is more than one way to | 2:05:09 | 2:05:13 | |
confront your perceived adverse Ariz
is through cyber and disinformation | 2:05:13 | 2:05:16 | |
which enters society under the
radar. We need to tighten political | 2:05:16 | 2:05:26 | |
advertising and that more closely at
the potential for foreign powers | 2:05:26 | 2:05:30 | |
funding politics and we need to our
social media organisations to do | 2:05:30 | 2:05:36 | |
things to tighten things up,
otherwise the government will have | 2:05:36 | 2:05:39 | |
to step in to do it. We have a
responsibility to take a step back | 2:05:39 | 2:05:43 | |
to consider, we best think afresh to
what we are creating with social | 2:05:43 | 2:05:49 | |
media and it is for the benefit of
all democracies... Order. Due to the | 2:05:49 | 2:05:54 | |
large intervention colleagues have
taken, which always has implications | 2:05:54 | 2:06:00 | |
for others, I am afraid after the
next speaker I will have to reduce | 2:06:00 | 2:06:03 | |
the time limit to four minutes.
Doctor Julian Lewis. I won't take | 2:06:03 | 2:06:14 | |
any interventions. I would like to
ask if any honourable member in this | 2:06:14 | 2:06:20 | |
chamber other than perhaps the
member for Ilford South and the | 2:06:20 | 2:06:25 | |
honourable member for Worley, feels
a flicker of recognition for the | 2:06:25 | 2:06:35 | |
names of the following
organisations. The International | 2:06:35 | 2:06:38 | |
union of students, the world
Federation of scientific workers, | 2:06:38 | 2:06:42 | |
the world Federation of Democratic
youth and above all, the world peace | 2:06:42 | 2:06:46 | |
Council. They were part of an
magnificent array of Soviet | 2:06:46 | 2:06:52 | |
international propaganda front
organisations, that plied their | 2:06:52 | 2:06:57 | |
disreputable trade through half a
century from the end of the 1940s, | 2:06:57 | 2:07:01 | |
right up until the downfall of the
Soviet Union. And they were well | 2:07:01 | 2:07:07 | |
funded, they were very active and
they were almost wholly, at least as | 2:07:07 | 2:07:12 | |
far as the United Kingdom was
concerned when ineffective. | 2:07:12 | 2:07:20 | |
Ineffective because they were
clunky, ineffective because they did | 2:07:20 | 2:07:23 | |
not understand the way in which
British people and British | 2:07:23 | 2:07:28 | |
parliamentarians think and operate.
I have heard something in every | 2:07:28 | 2:07:33 | |
speech, and indeed every
intervention that's been made with | 2:07:33 | 2:07:37 | |
which I agreed. We are all on the
same page, we all understand that | 2:07:37 | 2:07:44 | |
Russia is not a modern
constitutional democracy, that | 2:07:44 | 2:07:48 | |
Russia will do everything within its
power to promote its messages and to | 2:07:48 | 2:07:53 | |
undermine the messages of those it
perceives as its adverse Ariz. I | 2:07:53 | 2:08:01 | |
always hesitate to quote one of the
most evil men who ever walked the | 2:08:01 | 2:08:05 | |
face of the Earth and that is Doctor
Yosef Goebbels. But he knew a thing | 2:08:05 | 2:08:14 | |
or two about propaganda. And one of
his central tenets was, the purpose | 2:08:14 | 2:08:20 | |
of propaganda is not to change
minds, it is to find out what they | 2:08:20 | 2:08:27 | |
already believe and reinforce it.
There is a very good reason for | 2:08:27 | 2:08:33 | |
this. Because except, and it is an
important exception, except when you | 2:08:33 | 2:08:39 | |
are dealing with young minds who
have not had a chance to form their | 2:08:39 | 2:08:43 | |
value systems and opinions. I have
come to the conclusion, through | 2:08:43 | 2:08:48 | |
working in this field for a long
time before I entered the House of | 2:08:48 | 2:08:53 | |
Commons, people are much more
resistance to the effect of | 2:08:53 | 2:08:57 | |
propaganda than they are given
credit for, when it comes to | 2:08:57 | 2:09:00 | |
changing their minds. The effect of
propaganda may be too disheartened, | 2:09:00 | 2:09:07 | |
but it's not generally to them
unless they are impressionable and | 2:09:07 | 2:09:13 | |
most people are not. I said I
wouldn't and I won't come out of | 2:09:13 | 2:09:18 | |
consideration to others. I am sorry.
Therefore, I would like to follow on | 2:09:18 | 2:09:24 | |
a bet that the argument the
honourable member for Ilford South | 2:09:24 | 2:09:27 | |
was developing when he talked about
different stages in society. I think | 2:09:27 | 2:09:33 | |
that apart from failed states, you
have three main types of society. We | 2:09:33 | 2:09:39 | |
have totalitarian extremism. You
have ruthless authoritarianism and | 2:09:39 | 2:09:44 | |
you have constitutional democracy.
And sometimes, you only have the | 2:09:44 | 2:09:49 | |
choice between the first or the
second, because their third takes | 2:09:49 | 2:09:53 | |
time to evolve. And the reason why
the rush of today, though dangerous | 2:09:53 | 2:10:00 | |
play is not nearly as dangers as the
Soviet Union of yesterday, is | 2:10:00 | 2:10:06 | |
because it has moved largely from
totalitarian extremism to ruthless | 2:10:06 | 2:10:13 | |
kleptocratic authoritarianism. The
reason why totalitarian extremism is | 2:10:13 | 2:10:19 | |
a dangerously as it has an ideology
that finds resonance in the target | 2:10:19 | 2:10:25 | |
societies, the ideology for example
of the work of's paradise. There are | 2:10:25 | 2:10:30 | |
no fifth columnists of young,
British people who are bowled over | 2:10:30 | 2:10:34 | |
by the masculinity, alleged or real
Vladimir Putin. There were plenty | 2:10:34 | 2:10:39 | |
who were fooled by the concept of
the worker's paradise, so by all | 2:10:39 | 2:10:45 | |
means, so by all means be careful.
By all means, recognise that Twitter | 2:10:45 | 2:10:52 | |
can affect young, impressionable
minds. But remember one thing, to | 2:10:52 | 2:11:02 | |
defend ourselves properly, we need
to defend ourselves in the cyber | 2:11:02 | 2:11:04 | |
field against cyber attack on our
infrastructure, rather than worry | 2:11:04 | 2:11:07 | |
too much about ineffective
propaganda measures. Chris Bryant. I | 2:11:07 | 2:11:17 | |
have to say, although I admire the
honourable gentleman, I find that | 2:11:17 | 2:11:21 | |
utterly naive and complacent in the
end. Because you cannot just say | 2:11:21 | 2:11:27 | |
Russia is a klepto Chrissy and say
that is fine. It is a security | 2:11:27 | 2:11:32 | |
state. It is being run ruthlessly
and preventing elections, preventing | 2:11:32 | 2:11:37 | |
journalist from doing their proper
job, murdering journalists and | 2:11:37 | 2:11:42 | |
making sure journalists elsewhere in
the world are put out of their jobs | 2:11:42 | 2:11:45 | |
are not able to scrutinise Russia
properly. Even the Russian embassy's | 2:11:45 | 2:11:51 | |
presents in the UK I think flounces
every single one of the normal rules | 2:11:51 | 2:11:58 | |
of an embassy. It wrote to the
Speaker on a previous occasion to | 2:11:58 | 2:12:03 | |
try to prevent a debate taking place
on Russia here. They have tweeted | 2:12:03 | 2:12:08 | |
aggressively against several members
of this House and they even tried to | 2:12:08 | 2:12:13 | |
rig the election of the chair of the
all-party Parliamentary group. You | 2:12:13 | 2:12:19 | |
think they would have more important
things to do. I am the present chair | 2:12:19 | 2:12:24 | |
and the former chair is sitting
opposite. Because he departed, he | 2:12:24 | 2:12:28 | |
was so fed up with the way the
Russian Embassy were dealing with | 2:12:28 | 2:12:31 | |
us. Maybe the honourable member from
the Isle of Wight will say something | 2:12:31 | 2:12:38 | |
on this later because he is an
expert. But they are involved in a | 2:12:38 | 2:12:43 | |
form of hybrid warfare. It doesn't
involve military weapons so much, | 2:12:43 | 2:12:47 | |
although they are quite keen to
continuously flex those muscles as | 2:12:47 | 2:12:52 | |
well and they are totalitarian Rory
ambitious because of Georgia and | 2:12:52 | 2:12:58 | |
Ukraine. But I want to explain one
of the elements because I asked a | 2:12:58 | 2:13:03 | |
man who runs the digital forensic
research at the Atlantic Council, to | 2:13:03 | 2:13:07 | |
look at some of the Twitter accounts
of MPs, including the honourable | 2:13:07 | 2:13:12 | |
member the Folkestone and Hythe, the
honourable member the Karl Schultz, | 2:13:12 | 2:13:17 | |
myself and others and they count of
the Secretary of State for work and | 2:13:17 | 2:13:21 | |
pension is and looks at the attacks
they receive. The pattern is from | 2:13:21 | 2:13:26 | |
some of these control accounts,
which I believe and others believe | 2:13:26 | 2:13:30 | |
are centrally organised from St
Petersburg, as the honourable member | 2:13:30 | 2:13:35 | |
referred to earlier. The pattern is,
they are anonymous, pretend to be | 2:13:35 | 2:13:39 | |
British, even though they might have
been treating in Russian. They tweet | 2:13:39 | 2:13:44 | |
in bad English at Russian times of
day. They infiltrate the hard right, | 2:13:44 | 2:13:49 | |
to propagate and amplify views held
by others to make the Goebbels point | 2:13:49 | 2:13:54 | |
that was made earlier. They attacked
Tooting critics with foul language. | 2:13:54 | 2:14:06 | |
They support Kremlin lines and
Syria, the Olympic ban, Ukraine, M | 2:14:06 | 2:14:11 | |
17 flight and Senator McCain. And
they tag other factory control | 2:14:11 | 2:14:15 | |
accounts. So the one that attacked
Lucy Fisher, a journalist that the | 2:14:15 | 2:14:23 | |
time and myself, it looks like a
normal account, but the profile | 2:14:23 | 2:14:27 | |
picture is of a Russian skater. It
used to tweet in Russian, now it | 2:14:27 | 2:14:35 | |
needs a very aggressive
anti-immigration stuff in the UK. | 2:14:35 | 2:14:39 | |
The instance, I effing hate Irish.
Not one of its most expressive | 2:14:39 | 2:14:48 | |
recent tweets, called on the
honourable member from Carl Scholten | 2:14:48 | 2:14:55 | |
to resign. It doesn't mean it is a
bad person, but he was only being | 2:14:55 | 2:15:05 | |
attacked because of his political
views. It is dangerously be | 2:15:05 | 2:15:09 | |
complacent, because there is a
specific body of work attacking | 2:15:09 | 2:15:13 | |
Twitter accounts to intimidate
British MPs. | 2:15:13 | 2:15:20 | |
I must concur with many of the
speeches today, I believe it is a | 2:15:20 | 2:15:24 | |
major threat to our democracy,
Western democracy, and our way of | 2:15:24 | 2:15:30 | |
life. One of the biggest threats I
have experienced since the fall of | 2:15:30 | 2:15:35 | |
the Berlin Wall. At that time, there
was a book written by an academic | 2:15:35 | 2:15:40 | |
the Berlin Wall. At that time, there
was a book written by an academic, | 2:15:40 | 2:15:43 | |
about the end of history and how
liberal democracy was the final form | 2:15:43 | 2:15:46 | |
of government. This looks quite an
arrogant approach, shows a great | 2:15:46 | 2:15:51 | |
deal of hubris. Over the years,
these events and Russia's | 2:15:51 | 2:15:59 | |
transformation and change has crept
up on us. We are effectively, I | 2:15:59 | 2:16:05 | |
think, a type of war going on, it
may not involve armies, we may not | 2:16:05 | 2:16:09 | |
have seen the same conventional
threat, but it involves the bots. It | 2:16:09 | 2:16:22 | |
feeds all the way through many
strikers of Russian society. This | 2:16:22 | 2:16:25 | |
can also be shown, they have been
open, going back to 2013-14, you | 2:16:25 | 2:16:34 | |
will see many public utterances by
Russian generals talking about | 2:16:34 | 2:16:37 | |
information and the future being
hybrid war and that is what we have | 2:16:37 | 2:16:42 | |
seen being deployed. It is not just
Russia involved in this, there are | 2:16:42 | 2:16:49 | |
up to 25, 28 countries developing
this type of capability globally. | 2:16:49 | 2:16:55 | |
This itself, if we turn on each
other, even some friendly nations as | 2:16:55 | 2:17:00 | |
well, if they adopt these tactics,
we all effectively could be lost. We | 2:17:00 | 2:17:08 | |
need to think about how we tackle
this. Fake news itself is the | 2:17:08 | 2:17:14 | |
most... The thing we are looking at
as the select committee right now, | 2:17:14 | 2:17:17 | |
but it is perhaps not as big an
issue as algorithms allowing access | 2:17:17 | 2:17:22 | |
to target... In the general
election, we saw there was a great | 2:17:22 | 2:17:30 | |
deal of targeting of the swing
states -- in the US election. And | 2:17:30 | 2:17:34 | |
individuals who seem to be
particularly susceptible to this | 2:17:34 | 2:17:39 | |
type of fake news. I believe the
future may not involve whether or | 2:17:39 | 2:17:44 | |
not the Facebooks of this world
become a platform or publisher which | 2:17:44 | 2:17:48 | |
is a major debate going on, in some
respects, it is about the | 2:17:48 | 2:17:53 | |
algorithms, how we get into the
black boxes, telling us precisely | 2:17:53 | 2:17:58 | |
how this works and it is
understanding that and I have to say | 2:17:58 | 2:18:02 | |
properly regulating it and
introducing proper oversight because | 2:18:02 | 2:18:05 | |
the danger is, for example, we make
Facebook publisher, we also without | 2:18:05 | 2:18:13 | |
responsibility -- with that
responsibility comes enormous power, | 2:18:13 | 2:18:17 | |
they can dictate effectively the
sort of discourse and it is too much | 2:18:17 | 2:18:21 | |
power to put into their particular
hands. I would say one thing of the | 2:18:21 | 2:18:27 | |
social media companies, they need to
cooperate more with the likes of the | 2:18:27 | 2:18:31 | |
select committee and other
international bodies because they | 2:18:31 | 2:18:34 | |
too are invested in our society, our
Western ways, and unless they come | 2:18:34 | 2:18:39 | |
to the party, I'm afraid that there
could be some real problems down the | 2:18:39 | 2:18:46 | |
line. Finally, talking about Brexit,
in this regard, I do not think the | 2:18:46 | 2:18:51 | |
evidence is quite there at the
moment in terms of the level of | 2:18:51 | 2:18:54 | |
interference in the same way as the
French elections, however, there was | 2:18:54 | 2:18:58 | |
a way in which this did by osmosis
seep through, Germany and | 2:18:58 | 2:19:04 | |
immigration, a lot of the fake
stories coming out there which I | 2:19:04 | 2:19:10 | |
think did downstream effectively
affect many people's outlooks when | 2:19:10 | 2:19:13 | |
it comes to issues like immigration
and the referendum, I think that had | 2:19:13 | 2:19:17 | |
an impact. It is unfortunate that
chairman has left us now because I | 2:19:17 | 2:19:25 | |
have served on the committee and I
believe it would be very helpful to | 2:19:25 | 2:19:29 | |
him to inform the House that an
organisation that he had played a | 2:19:29 | 2:19:35 | |
great leading role in the referendum
is under investigation by the | 2:19:35 | 2:19:40 | |
electoral commission at the moment
and I have been on this committee | 2:19:40 | 2:19:45 | |
for three parliaments and I am
ashamed that we are neglecting what | 2:19:45 | 2:19:52 | |
it is, the most prominent issue
before us, and the member for Exeter | 2:19:52 | 2:19:57 | |
need not be shy about being
premature bringing it forward, we | 2:19:57 | 2:19:59 | |
had a debate, we made the report, at
the end of the last parliament. It | 2:19:59 | 2:20:05 | |
was clear, we said the Electoral
Commission had told us they were | 2:20:05 | 2:20:10 | |
powerless to actually control
information from abroad. The role of | 2:20:10 | 2:20:16 | |
the committee has been taken up by
other committees, very grateful for | 2:20:16 | 2:20:20 | |
what they have done, and a committee
in the House of Lords took it at the | 2:20:20 | 2:20:25 | |
other day and the chief executive
said clearly, and I will quote, as | 2:20:25 | 2:20:28 | |
the UK-based regulator, applying
UK-based laws, there is nothing we | 2:20:28 | 2:20:35 | |
can do about activity on the
internet that is taking place | 2:20:35 | 2:20:38 | |
outside of the UK. And the threat to
us, the Electoral Commission, a year | 2:20:38 | 2:20:46 | |
later, after this was flagged up,
has no powers and there is an | 2:20:46 | 2:20:50 | |
investigation. What the chief
executive told us last year was the | 2:20:50 | 2:20:56 | |
only people who could do at work
GCHQ and there appears to be nothing | 2:20:56 | 2:21:00 | |
that has happened. -- the only
people who could do it were GCHQ. We | 2:21:00 | 2:21:09 | |
are trying to control elections with
the tools of the steam age not the | 2:21:09 | 2:21:13 | |
digital age. A final point of order
of the last Parliament, the reaction | 2:21:13 | 2:21:18 | |
of the Speaker was kind as always,
but he did not know what an | 2:21:18 | 2:21:22 | |
algorithm was, but having warned
about these things, but we must | 2:21:22 | 2:21:25 | |
realise that our elections and
referendums are up for sale, people | 2:21:25 | 2:21:31 | |
can spend large amounts of money,
not just Russia, it is America as | 2:21:31 | 2:21:36 | |
well, to obtain a certain end in our
campaigns. We are in a worse | 2:21:36 | 2:21:45 | |
position... There has always been --
there has also been a degradation of | 2:21:45 | 2:21:51 | |
the political debate, you put
forward a preposterous lie, repeated | 2:21:51 | 2:21:56 | |
enough, it is believed and it is
allowed and there is no sensor. | 2:21:56 | 2:21:59 | |
Someone very happy to hold the
Office for National Statistics who | 2:21:59 | 2:22:06 | |
are the arbiters of these matters,
the keepers of the truth, when both | 2:22:06 | 2:22:13 | |
chairman of the United Kingdom
statistics authority complained | 2:22:13 | 2:22:19 | |
about the activities of the Foreign
Secretary and the now Minister for | 2:22:19 | 2:22:24 | |
Defra, they were saying something
that was demonstrably untrue, using | 2:22:24 | 2:22:29 | |
a gross figure in a way about the
health service money that might be | 2:22:29 | 2:22:34 | |
coming, he was not summoned, the two
MPs were not summoned before the | 2:22:34 | 2:22:41 | |
committee to account for themselves,
the committee refused to do that, | 2:22:41 | 2:22:45 | |
but they did seven the man calling
it out -- but they did summon the | 2:22:45 | 2:22:51 | |
man calling it out, he was the one
pointing out that error. We have the | 2:22:51 | 2:23:00 | |
degradation, big lies, it happened
in the other campaigns as well, the | 2:23:00 | 2:23:05 | |
ones for the alternative vote, but I
believe we are in a position now | 2:23:05 | 2:23:11 | |
where we are not respecting
objective truths, people can lie | 2:23:11 | 2:23:18 | |
with impunity and get away with it.
There are a lot of people interested | 2:23:18 | 2:23:22 | |
in distorting the referendum and our
elections and there is no defences | 2:23:22 | 2:23:26 | |
we have for it. For the record, I
have been doing academic research on | 2:23:26 | 2:23:34 | |
Russian conventional and
nonconventional war from 1990 to | 2:23:34 | 2:23:41 | |
1994, I live there, and I have made
seven trips there for us -- for | 2:23:41 | 2:23:49 | |
research purposes. I thank the
honourable member for this debate. | 2:23:49 | 2:23:56 | |
The most important thing we can
achieve is to avoid worsening | 2:23:56 | 2:23:59 | |
relations with Russia and to do what
we can to minimise the chances of | 2:23:59 | 2:24:03 | |
conflict, which is small but
genuine. However, we need to call up | 2:24:03 | 2:24:09 | |
Russian malign intent, understand
what is happening and take firm | 2:24:09 | 2:24:13 | |
action when required. It is quite
clear that the Kremlin opposes | 2:24:13 | 2:24:17 | |
liberal democracy and it sees it as
a threat. Its doctrines imply a | 2:24:17 | 2:24:24 | |
conflict of values. These are the
Russian foreign policy concepts, two | 2:24:24 | 2:24:28 | |
of them in the last 20 years, the
information security, Russia's | 2:24:28 | 2:24:33 | |
recent national security strategy,
the three military doctrines in the | 2:24:33 | 2:24:37 | |
last two decades, the member talked
about the conceptualisations of | 2:24:37 | 2:24:40 | |
active measures and hybrid war, the
first doctrine, not just conflict, | 2:24:40 | 2:24:50 | |
military conflict, is the combining
of people, power and military and | 2:24:50 | 2:24:54 | |
non-military tools. I quote, the
integrated use of force, political, | 2:24:54 | 2:24:59 | |
economic, information and other
measures of an non-military | 2:24:59 | 2:25:03 | |
character implemented with extensive
use of protest potential of the | 2:25:03 | 2:25:09 | |
population, my slightly rough
translation, and special force | 2:25:09 | 2:25:12 | |
operations. By this, I think we are
talking about cider and espionage as | 2:25:12 | 2:25:16 | |
well as physical operations -- cyber
. Vote rigging is very much part of | 2:25:16 | 2:25:26 | |
it. There are over 50 tools I have
come across, too many to mention | 2:25:26 | 2:25:31 | |
here, one can divide them up into
six categories. Information warfare, | 2:25:31 | 2:25:35 | |
clearly we are seeing a lot of in
this country and I would include the | 2:25:35 | 2:25:39 | |
substance of cyber | 2:25:39 | 2:25:39 | |
this country and I would include the
substance of cyber, soft power, | 2:25:39 | 2:25:43 | |
culture, governments, law, more
applicable to East Europe. | 2:25:43 | 2:25:47 | |
Subversive political tactics, old
Soviet active measures, which you | 2:25:47 | 2:25:50 | |
will know well, assassination,
blackmail, the stuff they may or may | 2:25:50 | 2:25:54 | |
not have on President Trump, who
knows, all of these elements. The | 2:25:54 | 2:25:59 | |
KGB, we championed by the GR you and
others. Diplomacy and public | 2:25:59 | 2:26:05 | |
outrage, economic tools,
conventional and nonconventional | 2:26:05 | 2:26:09 | |
military tools. To those six, one
should add another two elements, | 2:26:09 | 2:26:14 | |
command and control, journalists
often miss it out because they do | 2:26:14 | 2:26:17 | |
not think it is interesting. For
diplomats and soldiers, spirits, the | 2:26:17 | 2:26:21 | |
people who try to understand it, the
command and control structures are | 2:26:21 | 2:26:26 | |
important to understand -- spooks.
And the way to control, the | 2:26:26 | 2:26:31 | |
psychological chess, it is known in
Russian as reflective control, a way | 2:26:31 | 2:26:34 | |
of leading your opponent to their
own demise. I have in the last 45 | 2:26:34 | 2:26:39 | |
seconds... We would recommend to the
Minister, look at the US in the | 2:26:39 | 2:26:47 | |
1980s, an intelligence committee
reporting annually, twice a year, | 2:26:47 | 2:26:51 | |
standing, powerful committee using a
great deal of experts to publicise | 2:26:51 | 2:26:56 | |
its results, to inoculate society
against the lies told. We need a | 2:26:56 | 2:27:01 | |
House intelligence committee, I will
be writing to various members about | 2:27:01 | 2:27:05 | |
this in the New Year. We need a
powerful committee to look | 2:27:05 | 2:27:10 | |
holistically, Russian warfare is
holistic, ours needs to be holistic | 2:27:10 | 2:27:14 | |
as well. Secondly, we need a
stunning group of experts, the US in | 2:27:14 | 2:27:19 | |
the 1980s, again, the active
measures working group, very | 2:27:19 | 2:27:22 | |
successful in bringing to light the
cyber... That active warfare of the | 2:27:22 | 2:27:29 | |
Soviets, presenting the evidence to
Mr Gorbachev. Thank you. I want to | 2:27:29 | 2:27:38 | |
thank the honourable member for
Carshalton for bringing the issue to | 2:27:38 | 2:27:41 | |
the floor and I am always interested
in what my learned friend has to | 2:27:41 | 2:27:44 | |
bring to any debate. Some things we
agree on, some things we do not. I | 2:27:44 | 2:27:49 | |
want to say quickly, when I sat on
the Defence Select Committee would | 2:27:49 | 2:27:54 | |
honourable members, one of the
issues was the influence of Russia, | 2:27:54 | 2:28:01 | |
cyber technology, their influence
through radio stations, media, very | 2:28:01 | 2:28:05 | |
clear to me that there was a policy
by Russia and what happens. I just | 2:28:05 | 2:28:09 | |
want to make that comment. I want to
state clearly I am a staunch | 2:28:09 | 2:28:15 | |
Brexiteer. I still believe it is
best for the UK. And Northern | 2:28:15 | 2:28:22 | |
Ireland. I am proud to represent my
constituency which is a mixture of | 2:28:22 | 2:28:26 | |
rural and urban, I believe it is a
fair representation of the views of | 2:28:26 | 2:28:31 | |
the UK, it voted to leave. The
question... I believe it... Some | 2:28:31 | 2:28:40 | |
members have presented an argument
to say that we were influence. No | 2:28:40 | 2:28:53 | |
way casting dispersions on anything
said here today, honourable members | 2:28:53 | 2:28:56 | |
have their own opinion, they have a
right to that, but they have to | 2:28:56 | 2:28:59 | |
accept the decision of the June and
if except that, they should work | 2:28:59 | 2:29:07 | |
with the rest of us to make sure
Brexit happens. I'm trying to | 2:29:07 | 2:29:10 | |
ascertain whether this influence
changed the outcome of the | 2:29:10 | 2:29:14 | |
referendum. I do not believe it is
the case. It is my opinion that | 2:29:14 | 2:29:22 | |
communities in my constituency,
decimated by the Common Fisheries | 2:29:22 | 2:29:26 | |
Policy, they decided enough was
enough of Europeans lining their | 2:29:26 | 2:29:30 | |
pockets at the expense of our
fishermen. They wanted out. They | 2:29:30 | 2:29:33 | |
were fed up with bureaucrats sitting
in Brussels making decisions about | 2:29:33 | 2:29:44 | |
how many fish they could catch along
the coast of County Down, they | 2:29:44 | 2:29:47 | |
wanted out. The farmers who have
been tangled in regulation for too | 2:29:47 | 2:29:51 | |
many years, relying on government to
facilitate them, they wanted out. | 2:29:51 | 2:29:57 | |
The people on the street scene money
going to Europe, they wanted the | 2:29:57 | 2:30:02 | |
money going to education and health
-- the people on the streets seeing | 2:30:02 | 2:30:08 | |
money going to Europe. We made our
own minds up. There were people who | 2:30:08 | 2:30:13 | |
also wanted to stay, better the
devil you know than the devil you | 2:30:13 | 2:30:19 | |
don't. There were those who were
concerned about how businesses would | 2:30:19 | 2:30:24 | |
continue and they voted to remain.
As was their right. I visited those | 2:30:24 | 2:30:29 | |
businesses and I got their opinion
and I felt that opinion into | 2:30:29 | 2:30:33 | |
government and through the member
and the Brexit committee to make | 2:30:33 | 2:30:39 | |
sure those opinions are part of the
strategy the Government is trying to | 2:30:39 | 2:30:42 | |
pursue. Plans in place to secure
their businesses and to ensure they | 2:30:42 | 2:30:48 | |
survive and thrive. This is what we
do in my constituency and what we | 2:30:48 | 2:30:52 | |
should do in this House. | 2:30:52 | 2:30:58 | |
Did the Russians skew the vote? I
don't believe they did. People voted | 2:30:58 | 2:31:02 | |
with their heads and their hearts
and I don't think for a second, but | 2:31:02 | 2:31:07 | |
a Twitter or Facebook campaign
affected. I believe the willingness | 2:31:07 | 2:31:16 | |
for taking back our sovereignty and
independence. That is what the voter | 2:31:16 | 2:31:20 | |
was about. That is what the people
have asked us to do and what we must | 2:31:20 | 2:31:25 | |
deliver regardless of any Russian
influence. It is clear to me, they | 2:31:25 | 2:31:31 | |
want out. Everyone in this chamber
should be of the same opinion. It | 2:31:31 | 2:31:40 | |
has been a fascinating debate and I
would like to thank the honourable | 2:31:40 | 2:31:47 | |
member for bringing it today. It is
an opportunity to reflect on the | 2:31:47 | 2:31:52 | |
fact we are not the first to
experience this and anybody, I had | 2:31:52 | 2:31:58 | |
the great fortune a number of years
ago to work in the former Soviet | 2:31:58 | 2:32:02 | |
Union and I work into BC for a
number of years. And anyone who has | 2:32:02 | 2:32:09 | |
spent time there, will know that
what we are experiencing is not | 2:32:09 | 2:32:13 | |
something new, but is a tactic that
has been deployed over decades | 2:32:13 | 2:32:17 | |
rather than over the past few
months. It is useful for us to | 2:32:17 | 2:32:22 | |
reflect on and is useful why I
engage in with the Ukrainians, the | 2:32:22 | 2:32:27 | |
Georgians and others who have
experienced is so important. One | 2:32:27 | 2:32:32 | |
other thing I want to reflect on
during my experiences and has been | 2:32:32 | 2:32:37 | |
reflected on by other members, it is
not a debate about our relationship | 2:32:37 | 2:32:40 | |
with the people of Russia. The
people of Russia are wonderful with | 2:32:40 | 2:32:45 | |
their rich culture and history and
it is the most extraordinary diverse | 2:32:45 | 2:32:48 | |
and wonderful country, the Russian
Federation. The member for Harwich | 2:32:48 | 2:32:55 | |
and North Essex earlier on, he
mentioned the fact that maybe he | 2:32:55 | 2:32:59 | |
didn't want to see this debate
taking place. I welcome the fact | 2:32:59 | 2:33:03 | |
this is taking place and I want to
use the opportunity to highlight the | 2:33:03 | 2:33:08 | |
impact Vladimir Putin has had on his
own people. One thing that happened | 2:33:08 | 2:33:11 | |
last year, I spent time looking and
studying the conflict in Chechnya. | 2:33:11 | 2:33:16 | |
It is a much forgotten conflict, but
they described orogeny as the most | 2:33:16 | 2:33:24 | |
destroyed city on earth. Sometimes
we forget the devastating impact | 2:33:24 | 2:33:30 | |
that the current president of the
Russian Federation has had on his | 2:33:30 | 2:33:34 | |
own people. A far more devastating
impact than he's had on people | 2:33:34 | 2:33:38 | |
elsewhere in the world and it is
worth bearing that in mind. A couple | 2:33:38 | 2:33:43 | |
of years ago as well, I would
recommend the Foreign Affairs | 2:33:43 | 2:33:47 | |
Committee the member for Ilford
South and other colleagues put | 2:33:47 | 2:33:50 | |
together, as I thought, as always,
give thanks to the officials we had, | 2:33:50 | 2:33:57 | |
a very thoughtful and useful piece
of work. I want to reflect on the | 2:33:57 | 2:34:02 | |
evidence that we took. One of the
most impactful for me, pieces of | 2:34:02 | 2:34:08 | |
evidence in St Petersburg. We
invited groups from around the | 2:34:08 | 2:34:12 | |
Russian Federation to come and give
evidence. The impact the Russian | 2:34:12 | 2:34:18 | |
regime has had on LGBT groups who
have been threatened and bullied. | 2:34:18 | 2:34:24 | |
Lawyers who fight for the rule of
law and do so with incredible | 2:34:24 | 2:34:28 | |
courage that all of us in this House
should reflect on. The most | 2:34:28 | 2:34:32 | |
impactful group I met with
personally was the committee of | 2:34:32 | 2:34:37 | |
soldiers of mothers of Russia. These
were the women whose young men and | 2:34:37 | 2:34:41 | |
often young women had been sent to
the Army, sometimes to fight. Who | 2:34:41 | 2:34:47 | |
sometimes had lost family members,
couldn't get information about | 2:34:47 | 2:34:50 | |
family members. That is devastating
and we would do well to reflect on | 2:34:50 | 2:34:55 | |
the ongoing suffering of the people
of Russia and the bravery of the | 2:34:55 | 2:34:58 | |
woman in particular of the committee
of soldiers of mothers of Russia. | 2:34:58 | 2:35:02 | |
That this something we would
encourage the Minister to reflect | 2:35:02 | 2:35:06 | |
on, all members to reflect on as
well. I will make one point, the | 2:35:06 | 2:35:14 | |
report we did was incredibly
critical of Russia. I remember | 2:35:14 | 2:35:17 | |
asking Russia today, will you give
us evidence of where you have been | 2:35:17 | 2:35:20 | |
critical of Russian actions in Syria
# they didn't give us any. I thought | 2:35:20 | 2:35:26 | |
I should go on Russia today because
if we are going to criticise | 2:35:26 | 2:35:29 | |
somebody and thing we should give
them the opportunity to answer back. | 2:35:29 | 2:35:33 | |
On that point, I will give way. He's
referring to the select committee | 2:35:33 | 2:35:41 | |
enquiry. He will recall when we took
evidence from Russia today and | 2:35:41 | 2:35:47 | |
Sputnik, we were told they had a
charter just like the BBC's. And we | 2:35:47 | 2:35:52 | |
asked them, where is it, is it
published and they said, we will | 2:35:52 | 2:35:56 | |
send it to. As far as I am aware, it
was never received by the committee. | 2:35:56 | 2:36:02 | |
As always, the honourable member for
Ilford South has a fine recollection | 2:36:02 | 2:36:08 | |
and makes an excellent point. On the
point of journalists, Russia is one | 2:36:08 | 2:36:13 | |
of the most dangers places on earth
to be a journalist. We should | 2:36:13 | 2:36:18 | |
reflect in this House, and it is
worth putting on the record, the | 2:36:18 | 2:36:22 | |
extraordinary bravery of
journalists, going right back who | 2:36:22 | 2:36:26 | |
covered the conflicts in Chechnya,
who covered the conflicts in | 2:36:26 | 2:36:30 | |
Dagestan, nor the city as well as
over the border with the conflict is | 2:36:30 | 2:36:33 | |
ongoing in South 30 and other areas,
but don't get the debate with | 2:36:33 | 2:36:39 | |
everything else that is going on. In
the final remarks, what is the | 2:36:39 | 2:36:44 | |
solution to this? It is clear our
work with European Union has been | 2:36:44 | 2:36:50 | |
incredibly important. By Hibs
regardless of where members sit on | 2:36:50 | 2:36:53 | |
that the side of the debate, leave
remain, that the Minister will | 2:36:53 | 2:36:59 | |
commit to continuing our key
partnerships with these | 2:36:59 | 2:37:02 | |
organisations. The European Union
has a huge role to play. In terms of | 2:37:02 | 2:37:07 | |
the development of the economy, the
rule of law. We have done some | 2:37:07 | 2:37:11 | |
extraordinary work with them in the
Ukraine and I hope the Minister will | 2:37:11 | 2:37:15 | |
continue to commit to that as well.
I want to pay tribute to the soft | 2:37:15 | 2:37:20 | |
power that can be ongoing. There is
an extraordinary amount of work we | 2:37:20 | 2:37:25 | |
can do in terms of cultural
diplomacy and I pay tribute to the | 2:37:25 | 2:37:28 | |
British Council and others doing
fantastic work. And others who have | 2:37:28 | 2:37:32 | |
worked for years, extraordinary
people who have done extraordinary | 2:37:32 | 2:37:43 | |
work in building relations and
understanding. Finally, we need to | 2:37:43 | 2:37:48 | |
continue to work with the EU in
terms of stabilising and working | 2:37:48 | 2:37:51 | |
with and giving a carrot to the
countries that are threatened by the | 2:37:51 | 2:37:56 | |
European federation. The greatest
threat to independence and | 2:37:56 | 2:37:59 | |
sovereignty is not the United
Kingdom but said the countries of | 2:37:59 | 2:38:02 | |
the Western Balkans, the Baltic. Can
I offer my congratulations to the | 2:38:02 | 2:38:12 | |
right honourable member for securing
this debate. The argument I want to | 2:38:12 | 2:38:18 | |
make briefly is that unlike
agencies, the government has been | 2:38:18 | 2:38:23 | |
late in waking up to the new
worldview of President Putin, set | 2:38:23 | 2:38:28 | |
out with such clarity and force
after his re-election as president | 2:38:28 | 2:38:33 | |
in 2012. I want to set up briefly
the opportunity, means an motive | 2:38:33 | 2:38:38 | |
which has driven Russia to intervene
in our democracy and I want to | 2:38:38 | 2:38:42 | |
propose to the Minister a number of
areas where we can work together. | 2:38:42 | 2:38:46 | |
Let me start with the motive because
I think we have heard a lot, in | 2:38:46 | 2:38:52 | |
particular from the member of Ilford
North about the history and that | 2:38:52 | 2:38:56 | |
motive is important to underline.
After he returned to the presidency | 2:38:56 | 2:39:01 | |
in 2012, President Putin offered a
different view about the | 2:39:01 | 2:39:05 | |
possibilities of cooperation with
the West. That worldview wasn't a | 2:39:05 | 2:39:09 | |
secret, he set it out in great
clarity in his 2013 state of the | 2:39:09 | 2:39:14 | |
nation address where he gave us the
theory to match the fury of his | 2:39:14 | 2:39:19 | |
Munich Security conference speech in
2007. He attacked the post-Christian | 2:39:19 | 2:39:25 | |
west of genderless and infertile
liberalism. He attacked the puritan | 2:39:25 | 2:39:30 | |
's and he attacked what he said was
a West trapped in moral relativism, | 2:39:30 | 2:39:37 | |
and Europeans argued Putin renounced
their routes including Western | 2:39:37 | 2:39:44 | |
civilisation. They had a headline to
this story, they describe the pitch | 2:39:44 | 2:39:52 | |
as Putin, world conservatism's new
leader. This worldview has nothing | 2:39:52 | 2:39:57 | |
to do with traditional conservatism.
It has a great deal to do with the | 2:39:57 | 2:40:01 | |
new trends of the old right. But if
Mr Putin was content to confine the | 2:40:01 | 2:40:09 | |
philosophy to his own borders, we
would not be having this debate, but | 2:40:09 | 2:40:14 | |
he has set out systematically to
wreck the vision, legacy and the | 2:40:14 | 2:40:19 | |
record of President Gorbachev, who
set out in 1987 to 1989, a very | 2:40:19 | 2:40:24 | |
different view of the way that
Russia and Europe could work | 2:40:24 | 2:40:27 | |
together to create what he called,
and all European home, subject to a | 2:40:27 | 2:40:33 | |
common legal space, governed by the
European Convention on human rights. | 2:40:33 | 2:40:37 | |
This is not a view President Putin
shares. No all common home for | 2:40:37 | 2:40:43 | |
President Putin, just a systematic
effort to rule, confound and | 2:40:43 | 2:40:47 | |
confuse. That takes us to the means
of Russia's new strategy. I thought | 2:40:47 | 2:40:53 | |
the honourable member the New Forest
East did us a favour by sketching | 2:40:53 | 2:40:55 | |
out the history of active measures.
They do have a long history in | 2:40:55 | 2:40:59 | |
Russian warfare techniques. The
KGB's highest-ranking defector | 2:40:59 | 2:41:06 | |
described the heart and soul of
Russian intelligence. But since | 2:41:06 | 2:41:10 | |
2012, this doctrine has been
renewed. Some call it a doctrine, | 2:41:10 | 2:41:16 | |
some call it a philosophy, but the
idea is the rules of warfare has | 2:41:16 | 2:41:26 | |
changed. These new tactics are
characterised by opportunism. They | 2:41:26 | 2:41:36 | |
are an unregulated network or
propagandists and the material is | 2:41:36 | 2:41:43 | |
distributed online. It is an attempt
to confuse and confound. The way it | 2:41:43 | 2:41:50 | |
goes to market in the West is
through an unholy alliance with | 2:41:50 | 2:41:57 | |
extreme leftist groups and extreme
right groups as well. Its aim is to | 2:41:57 | 2:42:00 | |
polarise and divide. Its aim is to
tear down the words on my coat of | 2:42:00 | 2:42:06 | |
arms that we have more in common
than set us apart. If you look at | 2:42:06 | 2:42:15 | |
the 45 new parties created, you can
see a clear majority have some | 2:42:15 | 2:42:18 | |
sympathy with Russia. Germany's AFD,
the FPO, the front Nationale in | 2:42:18 | 2:42:26 | |
France, Northern league in Italy and
indeed Ukip. They have all taken | 2:42:26 | 2:42:30 | |
pro-Russia positions on matters of
huge international interest. Front | 2:42:30 | 2:42:37 | |
Nationale gave significant loans by
Kremlin backed banks. If you look at | 2:42:37 | 2:42:42 | |
the AFD's relationship with Russia,
you can see how broadcasters like | 2:42:42 | 2:42:48 | |
Sputnik and Russia linked account
systematically intervened to attack | 2:42:48 | 2:42:52 | |
Angela Merkel and support for AFD.
With Ukip, Nigel Farage famously | 2:42:52 | 2:42:57 | |
said that President Putin was the
leader he most admired in 2014. Ukip | 2:42:57 | 2:43:06 | |
has taken consistent positions of
support in the European Parliament | 2:43:06 | 2:43:09 | |
over Russia's situation with Crimea.
Blaming Ukraine with a crisis and | 2:43:09 | 2:43:22 | |
reasserting Russia's right to
intervene. The US intelligence | 2:43:22 | 2:43:25 | |
committee looking at this concluded
that Russia was intervening | 2:43:25 | 2:43:30 | |
systematically abroad in the West. I
believe it would be naive to think | 2:43:30 | 2:43:35 | |
Russia was not trying to intervene
here in this country. That takes us | 2:43:35 | 2:43:42 | |
to the heart of the reform agenda we
have got to look at. What has now | 2:43:42 | 2:43:45 | |
become clear is there is a dark,
social playbook which is being used | 2:43:45 | 2:43:51 | |
to great effect. We have hackers
like cosy bear or others who are | 2:43:51 | 2:43:55 | |
hacking e-mails, they work in
partnership with useful idiots, wiki | 2:43:55 | 2:44:00 | |
we hope Sputnik or RT, western
monster, they work hard to circulate | 2:44:00 | 2:44:11 | |
news that creates a row on Twitter,
then the troll farms kick in. Then | 2:44:11 | 2:44:20 | |
they suck the material into dark
Facebook groups and then those ads | 2:44:20 | 2:44:24 | |
are circulated widely. Of interest
to members opposite will be the | 2:44:24 | 2:44:27 | |
study I have commissioned by
signify, but look that the | 2:44:27 | 2:44:34 | |
Telegraph's terrible front-page
attacking members opposite for being | 2:44:34 | 2:44:38 | |
Brexit mutinies. Leave.EU and West
monster picked up the story. West | 2:44:38 | 2:44:42 | |
monster published the original
content. Leave.EU amplify the story | 2:44:42 | 2:44:47 | |
on Facebook channels calling rubble
members opposite cancer and Tory | 2:44:47 | 2:44:51 | |
traitors. If you look at standard
social listening tools you will see | 2:44:51 | 2:44:56 | |
the Twitter account had 1.3 thousand
interactions. Go on to the original | 2:44:56 | 2:45:01 | |
post and you will see only 44
interactions. Go onto the post on | 2:45:01 | 2:45:05 | |
Facebook and you will see 23,000
interactions. The difference is, | 2:45:05 | 2:45:13 | |
money run was being switched behind
back to attack and influence an | 2:45:13 | 2:45:18 | |
attempt to suborn members opposite
in the debates we have had over the | 2:45:18 | 2:45:21 | |
last week or two. | 2:45:21 | 2:45:26 | |
Quite where the money was coming
from, we don't know, it was a | 2:45:26 | 2:45:31 | |
dormant company. A subsidiary has
just been set up with a man called | 2:45:31 | 2:45:36 | |
John Douglas Wilson Castle, formerly
of this parish. We now have a | 2:45:36 | 2:45:42 | |
well-established playbook where we
have a method of creating rows on | 2:45:42 | 2:45:46 | |
Twitter and sucking the content onto
Facebook using. Money. The ads are | 2:45:46 | 2:45:53 | |
not going to everybody because firms
like Aggregate IQ are targeting the | 2:45:53 | 2:46:01 | |
ads. I will not give way because of
time. We have about as, the means | 2:46:01 | 2:46:08 | |
and a method of Russia intervening
in democracy that we have got to be | 2:46:08 | 2:46:13 | |
aware of. The challenge we have now
got is that is that our legislation | 2:46:13 | 2:46:22 | |
is completely out of date. We have
the chairman of the Electoral | 2:46:22 | 2:46:28 | |
Commission openly warning of a
perfect storm that is putting our | 2:46:28 | 2:46:32 | |
democratic process in peril and
calling for urgent steps to deliver | 2:46:32 | 2:46:37 | |
transparency around political
advertising, we have regulation for | 2:46:37 | 2:46:39 | |
social media firms that was written
before social media firms grew to | 2:46:39 | 2:46:44 | |
the size they have and because they
are treated as platforms, not | 2:46:44 | 2:46:48 | |
publishers, that means Ofcom will
not regulate them as broadcasters. | 2:46:48 | 2:46:52 | |
We have the Electoral Commission
that confirm to me they cannot use | 2:46:52 | 2:46:57 | |
civil sanctioning power on non-EU
-based individuals or conduct taking | 2:46:57 | 2:47:00 | |
place outside of the UK. But a
significant because as my honourable | 2:47:00 | 2:47:06 | |
friend said there is a risk money
came in to support campaigns from | 2:47:06 | 2:47:11 | |
abroad. We had the Advertising
Standards Authority that has | 2:47:11 | 2:47:16 | |
expressed to me grave disquiet about
the fact they can ban political | 2:47:16 | 2:47:20 | |
advertising on broadcast but they
cannot ban political advertising on | 2:47:20 | 2:47:25 | |
targeted social media platforms. The
challenge we have got today is that | 2:47:25 | 2:47:30 | |
there are five key steps we have got
to take. It is ludicrous that the | 2:47:30 | 2:47:36 | |
national security strategy does not
include a specific objective to | 2:47:36 | 2:47:40 | |
defend the integrity of our
democracy. We have got to review the | 2:47:40 | 2:47:44 | |
e-commerce directive as recommended
and if the Government does not bring | 2:47:44 | 2:47:50 | |
forward consultation, we on this
side of the House will. It is time | 2:47:50 | 2:47:54 | |
to look again at the 2003
Communications Act, we want to know | 2:47:54 | 2:47:58 | |
in particular why the Electoral
Commission is not using the power it | 2:47:58 | 2:48:03 | |
has to investigate collusion between
Aggregate IQ and Cambridge | 2:48:03 | 2:48:12 | |
Analytica. The Electoral Commission
needs new powers. And we need a | 2:48:12 | 2:48:18 | |
different generation of responses
like that active measures working | 2:48:18 | 2:48:20 | |
group. With a line of Abraham
Lincoln, the price of freedom is | 2:48:20 | 2:48:27 | |
constant vigilance. It is time
discovered opened its eyes and | 2:48:27 | 2:48:33 | |
started acting. -- this government
opened its eyes. Thank you for the | 2:48:33 | 2:48:40 | |
opportunity to speak today and I am
grateful, as are all honourable and | 2:48:40 | 2:48:45 | |
right honourable members here, for
the member for Castleton for | 2:48:45 | 2:48:50 | |
bringing the debate forward. It is
the first role of government to | 2:48:50 | 2:48:54 | |
protect the nation and its people
and to safeguard our democracy and | 2:48:54 | 2:48:58 | |
we recognise and acknowledge the
concern express by the house today | 2:48:58 | 2:49:03 | |
about the threat posed to our
politics and society by the | 2:49:03 | 2:49:07 | |
exploitation of digital technology
and platform. And we are very happy | 2:49:07 | 2:49:10 | |
to work with members right across
the House. Digital technology brings | 2:49:10 | 2:49:17 | |
huge benefits and we celebrate the
freedom that they bestow but they | 2:49:17 | 2:49:21 | |
allow malign actors knew means by
which to communicate too. We are | 2:49:21 | 2:49:26 | |
committed to defending the UK from
all forms of malign state | 2:49:26 | 2:49:30 | |
interference whether from Russia or
anywhere else. When there is any | 2:49:30 | 2:49:35 | |
suggestion that the Kremlin has
sought to interfere in the political | 2:49:35 | 2:49:41 | |
process, we treat such allegations
seriously and carefully. And the | 2:49:41 | 2:49:44 | |
position is that to date we have not
yet seen evidence of successful | 2:49:44 | 2:49:49 | |
interference in UK democratic
processes by foreign government. I | 2:49:49 | 2:49:54 | |
am very grateful. This is an
interesting divergence between the | 2:49:54 | 2:49:59 | |
three government ministers who have
spoken on this. First of all, it was | 2:49:59 | 2:50:03 | |
I have seen no evidence the Russians
were trying to do anything. Then it | 2:50:03 | 2:50:09 | |
was, the version today, I have not
seen any successful interventions. | 2:50:09 | 2:50:12 | |
What would success be? How is he
defining success? I presume he means | 2:50:12 | 2:50:19 | |
there have been attempts. We have
seen no evidence of interference | 2:50:19 | 2:50:23 | |
that has successfully affected
democratic outcomes in the UK. By a | 2:50:23 | 2:50:31 | |
foreign government. That has been
the UK of my position for some time. | 2:50:31 | 2:50:37 | |
Success in the political process
would potentially involve changing | 2:50:37 | 2:50:41 | |
the result of that political process
and we have not seen successful | 2:50:41 | 2:50:47 | |
evidence of that. I thank him. Part
of the reason why we are finding it | 2:50:47 | 2:50:53 | |
difficult to establish the impact is
puzzled the lack of information | 2:50:53 | 2:50:57 | |
coming from social media companies
-- is the lack of information. Would | 2:50:57 | 2:51:02 | |
he join on calling Facebook in
particular to collaborate fully with | 2:51:02 | 2:51:10 | |
the inquiry? Absolutely. I will
express that in pretty firm terms | 2:51:10 | 2:51:13 | |
later in my speech. The point is we
have not yet seen evidence of this, | 2:51:13 | 2:51:19 | |
but we nonetheless remain vigilant.
I can assure the House that the | 2:51:19 | 2:51:24 | |
whole of government is alert to the
threat and working across government | 2:51:24 | 2:51:27 | |
on it. On this point, aside from the
evidence published out of the | 2:51:27 | 2:51:33 | |
American inquiry, does the
Government have evidence of intent, | 2:51:33 | 2:51:36 | |
whether or not the activity was
successful, as they define it? As | 2:51:36 | 2:51:42 | |
several members have pointed out in
the debate, there is evidence | 2:51:42 | 2:51:45 | |
already in the public domain of
activity. The question is the scale | 2:51:45 | 2:51:52 | |
of the activity. And whether it is
significant or not significant. | 2:51:52 | 2:51:56 | |
There is not yet evidence of
successful interference in UK | 2:51:56 | 2:52:02 | |
democratic processes. As the Prime
Minister made clear... OK. I am | 2:52:02 | 2:52:09 | |
grateful. I too question the
criteria of success because there is | 2:52:09 | 2:52:18 | |
evidence of success in that it is
provoking consternation and | 2:52:18 | 2:52:23 | |
questioning of Democratic results
and policies in our own country, | 2:52:23 | 2:52:26 | |
that is the criteria of success.
What we want to hear is that GCHQ | 2:52:26 | 2:52:31 | |
will aggressively target the
generation of this material and do | 2:52:31 | 2:52:34 | |
its best to block it and be much
more proactive. Maybe he is coming | 2:52:34 | 2:52:39 | |
to that. I will come to that, an
extremely important point with | 2:52:39 | 2:52:43 | |
respect to the cyber attacks in this
space. As the Prime Minister made | 2:52:43 | 2:52:48 | |
clear in a speech in the Guildhall
in November, we want to build a more | 2:52:48 | 2:52:52 | |
productive relationship with Russia,
but we also want to see Russia pay | 2:52:52 | 2:52:55 | |
its full and proper role in a rules
-based international order. We do | 2:52:55 | 2:53:00 | |
not hesitate in calling behaviour
which undermines the order, nor | 2:53:00 | 2:53:05 | |
which threatens our interests at
home overseas. If there was not | 2:53:05 | 2:53:11 | |
evidence of successful intervention,
was that evidence of unsuccessful | 2:53:11 | 2:53:14 | |
intervention? If so, what was it?
There has already been some evidence | 2:53:14 | 2:53:19 | |
declared, for instance, the
declaration by Facebook of some paid | 2:53:19 | 2:53:25 | |
for advertising by organisations
that also were involved in US | 2:53:25 | 2:53:33 | |
democratic processes. However, as we
know, the scale of that which is | 2:53:33 | 2:53:37 | |
currently declared by Facebook is
extremely small and is in fact 97 | 2:53:37 | 2:53:45 | |
cents. I will get on to the point
about transparency of information | 2:53:45 | 2:53:48 | |
because we do not think it
represents the whole gamut of | 2:53:48 | 2:53:52 | |
activity. We have identified Russia
as being responsible for a sustained | 2:53:52 | 2:53:57 | |
campaign of cyber espionage and
disruption around the world and when | 2:53:57 | 2:54:01 | |
we have seen the Kremlin deploy
disinformation in an attempt to sow | 2:54:01 | 2:54:05 | |
division and medal in overseas
elections and deflect attention away | 2:54:05 | 2:54:09 | |
from international incidents such as
the downing of MH17 or the use of | 2:54:09 | 2:54:13 | |
chemical weapons by the Syrian
regime, we have rightly raised these | 2:54:13 | 2:54:17 | |
concerns on the international stage.
However, challenging -- however | 2:54:17 | 2:54:23 | |
challenging our relationship might
be, it is essential we keep channels | 2:54:23 | 2:54:30 | |
of communication open with the
Russians and the Kremlin. To that | 2:54:30 | 2:54:34 | |
end, the Foreign Secretary will be
in Moscow tomorrow and while there, | 2:54:34 | 2:54:38 | |
he will firmly and clearly raise our
concerns over the use of | 2:54:38 | 2:54:41 | |
disinformation and cyber and
reaffirm the PM's message about | 2:54:41 | 2:54:49 | |
wanting to have a more productive
relationship based on mutual trust. | 2:54:49 | 2:54:53 | |
I thank him for giving way. Does he
agree with me in terms of cultural | 2:54:53 | 2:54:58 | |
exchanges, the work of the British
Council and others, and he may not | 2:54:58 | 2:55:02 | |
be able to answer now, but he can
write to me, will he guaranteed the | 2:55:02 | 2:55:07 | |
funding for organisations like the
British Council who are doing | 2:55:07 | 2:55:10 | |
remarkable work in places like
Russia? Of course we support the | 2:55:10 | 2:55:14 | |
British Council. I thought the
honourable member spoke well, but I | 2:55:14 | 2:55:18 | |
felt slightly sorry for him. At the
same time his former leader is on RT | 2:55:18 | 2:55:26 | |
taking the RT shilling and I can
confirm Alex Salmond's show is | 2:55:26 | 2:55:29 | |
already under investigation by
Ofcom. It is rather difficult for | 2:55:29 | 2:55:34 | |
the SNP spokesman to say anything on
this matter when he's completely | 2:55:34 | 2:55:38 | |
contradicted in his attitude and
tone by the former leader of the | 2:55:38 | 2:55:40 | |
SNP. I am grateful to the Minister.
I felt obliged to intervene again. | 2:55:40 | 2:55:47 | |
He is a former Member of Parliament,
current Conservative Members of | 2:55:47 | 2:55:52 | |
Parliament taking pay for
appearances on RT, does he think | 2:55:52 | 2:55:56 | |
that should be cracked down on? I
think it is wholly inappropriate to | 2:55:56 | 2:56:00 | |
appear on RT and I would not do it
myself. I think the SNP needs to | 2:56:00 | 2:56:06 | |
take a cold, hard look at itself and
its own relationship in this regard | 2:56:06 | 2:56:11 | |
but I feel sorry for him because I
thought he made quite a good speech | 2:56:11 | 2:56:15 | |
and lots of good points. If I come
on too many of the points raised in | 2:56:15 | 2:56:20 | |
the debate directly, if I can
respond to some, firstly, on the | 2:56:20 | 2:56:24 | |
question of the national security
strategy, raised by the right | 2:56:24 | 2:56:27 | |
honourable member opposite and also
the members for Exeter and Ilford, | 2:56:27 | 2:56:31 | |
they asked it be a top priority for
the national security strategy and I | 2:56:31 | 2:56:35 | |
can tell them we take all of the
allegations very seriously and the | 2:56:35 | 2:56:40 | |
Russian threat in all its forms is a
tier one national security issue and | 2:56:40 | 2:56:45 | |
I can give him that reassurance. If
I can respond to some of the points | 2:56:45 | 2:56:49 | |
made directly by the member for
Carshalton. He asked whether there | 2:56:49 | 2:56:53 | |
had been discussions with Facebook
and others, the answer is, yes, | 2:56:53 | 2:56:58 | |
these discussions have been led by
DC MS because we lead the overall | 2:56:58 | 2:57:02 | |
relationship with the platforms. He
asked political parties to be | 2:57:02 | 2:57:06 | |
treated as sea knife. We think they
should be differently regulated | 2:57:06 | 2:57:10 | |
treated as sea knife. We think they
should be differently regulated. -- | 2:57:10 | 2:57:13 | |
sea knife. We will continue to
strengthen cyber security guidance | 2:57:13 | 2:57:19 | |
for political parties but they are
different and it is vital that we do | 2:57:19 | 2:57:26 | |
not surrender our own values of
liberal democracy in response to | 2:57:26 | 2:57:30 | |
this threat. We welcome the ISC work
in this area included with the | 2:57:30 | 2:57:36 | |
Electoral Commission. The Electoral
Commission does have the resources | 2:57:36 | 2:57:40 | |
and the powers to follow the money
and on the point of the money | 2:57:40 | 2:57:44 | |
internationally, any international
money funding British political | 2:57:44 | 2:57:51 | |
activity political parties and
regulated activity is not | 2:57:51 | 2:57:56 | |
appropriate, so whether the
Electoral Commission can go further | 2:57:56 | 2:58:00 | |
is not relevant. If it is
international, it is not right. | 2:58:00 | 2:58:04 | |
Finally, he raised the point about
imprints on online ads and I can | 2:58:04 | 2:58:08 | |
confirm the Electoral Commission are
looking at that. Finally, he asked | 2:58:08 | 2:58:16 | |
about RT, there is a robust
regulatory framework in place for | 2:58:16 | 2:58:21 | |
broadcasting, as was discussed, and
Ofcom has found RT to be in breach | 2:58:21 | 2:58:25 | |
of the regulator's broadcasting code
and 13 separate occasions. The | 2:58:25 | 2:58:30 | |
members for Exeter and others spoke
passionately about their views of | 2:58:30 | 2:58:34 | |
Russia and another member made the
point that the question is not about | 2:58:34 | 2:58:41 | |
whether there were Russian attempts
at interference, the question is the | 2:58:41 | 2:58:49 | |
degree. I agree there is no evidence
of successful intervention. Another | 2:58:49 | 2:58:57 | |
member has a long experience in this
battle for mines and I strongly | 2:58:57 | 2:59:00 | |
agree that it is crucial that online
users are able critically to analyse | 2:59:00 | 2:59:08 | |
and properly questioned sources of
information especially relating to | 2:59:08 | 2:59:11 | |
political activity and I would say
we have got to have the confidence | 2:59:11 | 2:59:15 | |
he is right, our best defence
fundamentally is our critical | 2:59:15 | 2:59:21 | |
faculties as a society and long-term
work to ensure that its strong is | 2:59:21 | 2:59:25 | |
important. To finish my speech,
Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been | 2:59:25 | 2:59:33 | |
a very informed debate, in
recognition of the new threats posed | 2:59:33 | 2:59:38 | |
by cyber, the new centre mentioned
by my right honourable friend, the | 2:59:38 | 2:59:41 | |
chair of the select committee, has
stepped up to support political | 2:59:41 | 2:59:47 | |
parties to encourage them to support
and protect the data they hold. But | 2:59:47 | 2:59:52 | |
there is a distinction between cyber
security word that is an attack to | 2:59:52 | 2:59:59 | |
break down data holding systems
which the | 2:59:59 | 3:00:05 | |
And the open publication of
misleading disinformation. These are | 3:00:11 | 3:00:18 | |
separate issues and in government it
is for the NCSC to deal with cyber | 3:00:18 | 3:00:24 | |
attacks but not make judgments about
this information because they are a | 3:00:24 | 3:00:28 | |
security agency. The electoral
system is one of the most robust. It | 3:00:28 | 3:00:32 | |
is a matter for the government to
take a view but not for the National | 3:00:32 | 3:00:36 | |
Security cyber. The manual counting
system is difficult if not difficult | 3:00:36 | 3:00:43 | |
to manipulate through direct cyber
attack, but cyber is one of the | 3:00:43 | 3:00:46 | |
issues here. The Electoral
Commission was raised many times and | 3:00:46 | 3:00:53 | |
it has opened investigations into a
number of private campaign | 3:00:53 | 3:00:58 | |
financing, including around the
European referendum. It is right | 3:00:58 | 3:01:04 | |
whether we consider whether the
Electoral Commission is equipped | 3:01:04 | 3:01:07 | |
with the right powers to carry out
its critical function. There has | 3:01:07 | 3:01:10 | |
been suggestion on how the rules can
be tightened up and that includes | 3:01:10 | 3:01:16 | |
ideas from the commission itself and
that is as folk to consider whether | 3:01:16 | 3:01:21 | |
we should have the recognition of
increased role of social media | 3:01:21 | 3:01:24 | |
platforms. This should be done as
was set out so clearly by my | 3:01:24 | 3:01:33 | |
honourable friend from Solihull. We
expect social media companies, | 3:01:33 | 3:01:37 | |
including, but not limited to
Twitter, Facebook, Google and | 3:01:37 | 3:01:42 | |
Microsoft to comply with the select
committee's requests for | 3:01:42 | 3:01:46 | |
information. This comes to one of
the most important things that has | 3:01:46 | 3:01:49 | |
come of. The committee is due to
examine the top brass from Facebook, | 3:01:49 | 3:01:54 | |
Google on Twitter at a hearing in
February. These platforms recognise | 3:01:54 | 3:01:58 | |
there is a problem, they have made
progress we recognise. But there is | 3:01:58 | 3:02:04 | |
more famous do in terms of
transparency and cooperation. This | 3:02:04 | 3:02:07 | |
is a work in progress. There is much
more to do and we don't think the | 3:02:07 | 3:02:11 | |
select committee on this issue has
been given the straight answers we | 3:02:11 | 3:02:15 | |
expect. The published information is
entirely partial and inadequate. It | 3:02:15 | 3:02:19 | |
took the platform is a year to get
up to speed with what to do in the | 3:02:19 | 3:02:25 | |
US context and this time they must
do better and we do not rule out | 3:02:25 | 3:02:28 | |
taking further action if necessary.
They need to be part of the solution | 3:02:28 | 3:02:33 | |
and not the problem. The chair of
the select committee is an | 3:02:33 | 3:02:36 | |
incredibly reasonable man and his
reasonable demands must be met in | 3:02:36 | 3:02:40 | |
letter and in spirit. We welcome the
enquiry and we will look forward to | 3:02:40 | 3:02:45 | |
it studying its findings closely.
And finally, as the member the | 3:02:45 | 3:02:54 | |
Solihull said, the threats to our
democracy difference. They no longer | 3:02:54 | 3:02:58 | |
are vested in tanks, in the heart of
Europe, but in the ether, in | 3:02:58 | 3:03:04 | |
cyberspace, on the screens of
smartphones. We must have the | 3:03:04 | 3:03:08 | |
confidence that the robust and free
challenge of ideas is the best way | 3:03:08 | 3:03:12 | |
to decide the future of our country
but political discourse must be | 3:03:12 | 3:03:17 | |
based on objective reality, not
malicious disinformation from | 3:03:17 | 3:03:19 | |
abroad. Let's not fall into the trap
of feeble relativism. Let's send a | 3:03:19 | 3:03:26 | |
message loud and clear, true
Parliamentary democracy is more free | 3:03:26 | 3:03:32 | |
and just and in a new generation, we
are called to protect the freedom, | 3:03:32 | 3:03:36 | |
protect the Justice and protect our
way of life. We must not fail. I | 3:03:36 | 3:03:44 | |
would just like to say, I thank the
Minister for the tough words he said | 3:03:44 | 3:03:48 | |
about the social media companies,
but could I add to that, we also | 3:03:48 | 3:03:52 | |
need to ensure the security services
provide them with the information | 3:03:52 | 3:03:56 | |
they may have so they can follow the
leads that have already been | 3:03:56 | 3:04:00 | |
obtained by the intelligence
services. I hope the Minister will | 3:04:00 | 3:04:04 | |
take from this debate, the House
demands the UK Government | 3:04:04 | 3:04:09 | |
prioritises defending democracy from
Russian interference. The question | 3:04:09 | 3:04:16 | |
is this House has considered Russian
interference in the UK politics and | 3:04:16 | 3:04:20 | |
society. As many as are of the
opinion say "aye". To the contrary, | 3:04:20 | 3:04:26 | |
"no". The ayes have it, the ayes
have it. We now come to the | 3:04:26 | 3:04:34 | |
backbench debate on matters to be
raised before the forthcoming | 3:04:34 | 3:04:38 | |
adjournment, Bob Blackman to move.
You will be aware that unfortunately | 3:04:38 | 3:04:45 | |
the chairman of the backbench
business committee, the honourable | 3:04:45 | 3:04:49 | |
member from Gateshead had to return
to his constituency earlier so he | 3:04:49 | 3:04:52 | |
has asked me to lead off with the
debate. I beg to move this House has | 3:04:52 | 3:04:58 | |
considered matters before the
adjournment. Can I kick off, I am | 3:04:58 | 3:05:03 | |
sure, expressing their wishes to the
whole House to the chairman of ways | 3:05:03 | 3:05:06 | |
and means to his family during this
terrible tragedy and we hope he has | 3:05:06 | 3:05:13 | |
the most peaceful Christmas and New
Year as possible under these | 3:05:13 | 3:05:16 | |
dreadful circumstances. I kick off
with particular issues I want to | 3:05:16 | 3:05:20 | |
raise before we adjourn in dealing
with the matter of homelessness. I | 3:05:20 | 3:05:25 | |
make no apologies for pointing out
to the House, my Homelessness | 3:05:25 | 3:05:29 | |
Reduction Act, which was almost the
last act, which was given Royal | 3:05:29 | 3:05:34 | |
assent before we broke up for the
general election, is still yet to go | 3:05:34 | 3:05:40 | |
into law finally. It becomes law on
the 1st of April 2018. The | 3:05:40 | 3:05:46 | |
government have just concluded a
very detailed consultation on a 180 | 3:05:46 | 3:05:52 | |
page document on the advice that's
given to local authorities about the | 3:05:52 | 3:05:57 | |
act and also how homeless people are
to be treated in this country. The C | 3:05:57 | 3:06:03 | |
G select committee has given
evidence to that consultation and I | 3:06:03 | 3:06:07 | |
look forward, in the New Year, to
the government coming forward with | 3:06:07 | 3:06:11 | |
recommendations which meant that
consultation document slightly, to | 3:06:11 | 3:06:15 | |
make it more user-friendly to the
people that need help, namely the | 3:06:15 | 3:06:19 | |
people that are homeless. Equally,
this of course is the longest | 3:06:19 | 3:06:26 | |
private members bill in history and
the most expensive. And so, it is | 3:06:26 | 3:06:31 | |
clear it is going to be a revolution
in how homeless people are treated | 3:06:31 | 3:06:35 | |
in this country. Equally in the New
Year, the secondary legislation is | 3:06:35 | 3:06:42 | |
required to actually bring the act
into full force, will come before | 3:06:42 | 3:06:46 | |
the House, I believe in February.
Clearly, there is still work to be | 3:06:46 | 3:06:51 | |
done to get this in place, as is
required. The having-macro I commend | 3:06:51 | 3:07:00 | |
the amazing work he has done with
this legislation, important as it | 3:07:00 | 3:07:05 | |
is. I was with an amazing group of
people at the shelter office in | 3:07:05 | 3:07:11 | |
Birmingham yesterday and
particularly talking to workers who | 3:07:11 | 3:07:14 | |
have been through the experience of
street homelessness and could | 3:07:14 | 3:07:17 | |
provide incredible and important
support, they raised the issue of | 3:07:17 | 3:07:22 | |
the way in which sanctions in the
benefit system are applied to street | 3:07:22 | 3:07:27 | |
homeless people, many who are
suffering from mental health and | 3:07:27 | 3:07:31 | |
addiction issues. With the best will
in the world they have no way of | 3:07:31 | 3:07:34 | |
ensuring they attend a benefit
meeting a week or a fortnight away. | 3:07:34 | 3:07:42 | |
They miss the meeting and then they
have no money for a month and then | 3:07:42 | 3:07:45 | |
longer. This is something we surely
should address in the civilised | 3:07:45 | 3:07:48 | |
treatment of these people? Clearly,
people who are street homeless, | 3:07:48 | 3:07:55 | |
sleeping on the streets, rough, have
chaotic lives. They don't work to | 3:07:55 | 3:07:59 | |
the timetable is everyone else does.
It is wrong in principle that they | 3:07:59 | 3:08:04 | |
be penalised when, through no fault
of their own they fail to attend | 3:08:04 | 3:08:08 | |
such meetings and therefore, their
benefits are taken away from them | 3:08:08 | 3:08:12 | |
and we have to do more. What we do
know, above all else, every person | 3:08:12 | 3:08:17 | |
that is homeless is a unique case
and therefore should be treated in | 3:08:17 | 3:08:27 | |
such a way, sympathetically. This is
the 50th anniversary of the founding | 3:08:27 | 3:08:29 | |
of crisis. One of my political
heroes was the late Sir Ian McKellen | 3:08:29 | 3:08:35 | |
out who helped fund and also start
crisis and it started off as Crisis | 3:08:35 | 3:08:42 | |
At Christmas but has gone on to be
Crisis through the year. All | 3:08:42 | 3:08:50 | |
members, this is your opportunity to
make a difference. The crisis | 3:08:50 | 3:08:54 | |
Christmas single, Streets Of London
has been re-recorded to commemorate | 3:08:54 | 3:09:01 | |
the 50th anniversary of crisis. It
of course has the Criis choir and | 3:09:01 | 3:09:10 | |
the guest vocalist of Annie Lennox.
All members of staff can download | 3:09:10 | 3:09:16 | |
the single and 99p and we can aim to
make it the Christmas number one. If | 3:09:16 | 3:09:21 | |
members are not convinced of buying
The Streets Of London they can | 3:09:21 | 3:09:28 | |
download Phil Ryan's Christmas
single who has worked with Lord | 3:09:28 | 3:09:33 | |
Bird, the founder of the big issue.
They have been working together for | 3:09:33 | 3:09:37 | |
26 years and he has launched the
single, Walking Down The Lonely | 3:09:37 | 3:09:45 | |
Street at a time about talking of
loneliness and homelessness, those | 3:09:45 | 3:09:52 | |
go hand-in-hand. It would be great
if all members downloaded and | 3:09:52 | 3:09:56 | |
supported. He will be aware of
churches doing huge amount to | 3:09:56 | 3:10:03 | |
provide night shelters at this time
of year. In my own in Christchurch | 3:10:03 | 3:10:09 | |
in Colliers Wood, they provide, as
part of a group of churches, our | 3:10:09 | 3:10:15 | |
hostel from November through to
January. As a person of faith, it is | 3:10:15 | 3:10:19 | |
great to see that action. But it is
a greatly desperate thing to be | 3:10:19 | 3:10:25 | |
happening. This time of year we
should commend all of those | 3:10:25 | 3:10:31 | |
volunteers who give up their time at
Christmas and throughout the year to | 3:10:31 | 3:10:36 | |
help homeless people. In my
constituency, we have Firm | 3:10:36 | 3:10:41 | |
Foundation who does a brilliant job
and I am sure every constituency has | 3:10:41 | 3:10:45 | |
such groups are people who come
together to help the street | 3:10:45 | 3:10:49 | |
homeless. Can I also say, we have
had two successes in the budget, | 3:10:49 | 3:10:54 | |
which we should celebrate. The
helped to rent proposals which will | 3:10:54 | 3:10:58 | |
help upwards of 20,000 families to
get together a deposit for a rental | 3:10:58 | 3:11:04 | |
property. And indeed, the funding to
start with, of the housing first | 3:11:04 | 3:11:12 | |
project in three pilots. I think it
is a good start but we need to see | 3:11:12 | 3:11:15 | |
that rolled out right across the
country. He clearly than the budget | 3:11:15 | 3:11:22 | |
we had a huge win on the staircase
tax. This was going to affect 90,000 | 3:11:22 | 3:11:27 | |
businesses across the UK, following
the Supreme Court's decision to | 3:11:27 | 3:11:33 | |
allow the valuation office to levy
rates individually on offices that | 3:11:33 | 3:11:37 | |
are on separate floors or corridors.
It came to me, one particular | 3:11:37 | 3:11:43 | |
campaigner in my constituency, came
to see me. I lobbied the Chancellor | 3:11:43 | 3:11:46 | |
and I am pleased to see that many
other members across the House did | 3:11:46 | 3:11:52 | |
so as well and the Chancellor
listened to what we had to say. Can | 3:11:52 | 3:11:56 | |
I also say, there is some unfinished
business that needs to be concluded | 3:11:56 | 3:12:00 | |
in Parliament. First off on
consultation on removing casters in | 3:12:00 | 3:12:12 | |
the characteristic equality law.
There were thousands of responses | 3:12:12 | 3:12:16 | |
from the British Hindu community.
We're now await the British | 3:12:16 | 3:12:21 | |
government bringing forward
legislation to remove this ill | 3:12:21 | 3:12:24 | |
thought out, divisive and
unnecessary legislation from our | 3:12:24 | 3:12:28 | |
statute book. Equally, we have the
plight of Equitable Life | 3:12:28 | 3:12:33 | |
policyholders and I am the
co-chairman of the all-party group. | 3:12:33 | 3:12:38 | |
Still we have an outstanding debt of
£2.6 billion that is owed to those | 3:12:38 | 3:12:43 | |
people who invested their money,
listen to the advice and were | 3:12:43 | 3:12:47 | |
victims of a terrible scam. It was
also, we had the 99th anniversary of | 3:12:47 | 3:12:54 | |
the great union in Romania, where
Romanians gathered to celebrate the | 3:12:54 | 3:13:00 | |
joining of Transylvania into
Romania. I had the privilege, as the | 3:13:00 | 3:13:04 | |
chairman of the all-party group for
Rumania, to attend a national | 3:13:04 | 3:13:08 | |
celebration at the embassy. I wish
about 10,000 of my constituents are | 3:13:08 | 3:13:15 | |
very happy national day at the time
as well. Equally, this time of year | 3:13:15 | 3:13:23 | |
would not be complete without some
local issues that I just want to | 3:13:23 | 3:13:26 | |
raise. First, the issues of what I
can only describe as the North Face | 3:13:26 | 3:13:33 | |
of the Tiger at Stan Moore station.
As one arrives at the end of the | 3:13:33 | 3:13:38 | |
terminal at the travelling on the
Jubilee line, one is met by 49 steps | 3:13:38 | 3:13:44 | |
to reach the street level. There is
no lift, it was taken out by a | 3:13:44 | 3:13:50 | |
previous Mayor of London from the
whole plan, but there has been a | 3:13:50 | 3:13:56 | |
consultation from the Department for
Transport. Hundreds of my | 3:13:56 | 3:13:59 | |
constituents have campaigned for
lives of various stations. I look | 3:13:59 | 3:14:05 | |
forward to the Department for
Transport coming forward with the | 3:14:05 | 3:14:08 | |
funding necessary to make that
happen. We have had the scandal of | 3:14:08 | 3:14:14 | |
the hive, where Harrow Council
basically sold, for a relatively | 3:14:14 | 3:14:23 | |
small sum of money, the hive sports
ground to ban it club. Well he led | 3:14:23 | 3:14:30 | |
an adjournment debate on this,
subsequent to that, Barnet Football | 3:14:30 | 3:14:34 | |
Club, having acquired the whole
land, have submitted planning | 3:14:34 | 3:14:42 | |
applications to over develop the
site, to which local people are | 3:14:42 | 3:14:46 | |
objecting. And I will also mention,
the issue of broadband import of my | 3:14:46 | 3:14:55 | |
constituency in Stan Moore. People
often think of rural areas having | 3:14:55 | 3:14:59 | |
problems with broadband. I suggest
you come to my constituency where | 3:14:59 | 3:15:03 | |
the various providers refused to
provide high-speed broadband to | 3:15:03 | 3:15:11 | |
residents, even though many of them
need that desperately. So we look | 3:15:11 | 3:15:18 | |
forward to the providers being
forced to provide high-speed | 3:15:18 | 3:15:21 | |
broadband in the way it should be. | 3:15:21 | 3:15:26 | |
I have continued the work on trying
to encourage free schools in my | 3:15:26 | 3:15:30 | |
constituency to open and develop. We
have to Mariposa free school and | 3:15:30 | 3:15:39 | |
another proposed for my
constituency, but strongly supported | 3:15:39 | 3:15:42 | |
by local residents but objected to
by Harrow council and I trust they | 3:15:42 | 3:15:48 | |
will remove those objections so we
can see first rate schools being set | 3:15:48 | 3:15:53 | |
up for the constituents I have the
honour of representing. Can I also | 3:15:53 | 3:15:59 | |
just raise three local issues I
think are important in relation to | 3:15:59 | 3:16:06 | |
where we are going? I attended the
opening of the new facility in | 3:16:06 | 3:16:17 | |
Belmont, in my constituency, which
gives support to young people to be | 3:16:17 | 3:16:20 | |
able to learn to write code in a
fashion... They are learning it from | 3:16:20 | 3:16:28 | |
that age of five, writing computer
code, an excellent way of ensuring | 3:16:28 | 3:16:33 | |
our young people are getting the
type of education they need to | 3:16:33 | 3:16:36 | |
complement what they receive within
school. Also at this time of year, | 3:16:36 | 3:16:41 | |
although we are celebrating
Christmas, it is of course the | 3:16:41 | 3:16:45 | |
Festival of Hanukah as well and we
brought members of the public | 3:16:45 | 3:16:59 | |
together from all faiths and none to
make sure they all recognise that | 3:16:59 | 3:17:03 | |
the multicultural nature of London
and the multicultural nature | 3:17:03 | 3:17:06 | |
particularly of Harrow. I would also
mentions the brilliant work being | 3:17:06 | 3:17:15 | |
done by Harrow Mencap, connecting
communities. I mentioned earlier we | 3:17:15 | 3:17:25 | |
should concentrate not on people's
handicaps, but on what things they | 3:17:25 | 3:17:29 | |
can do. Harrow men cup are a prime
exhort the -- Harrow Mencap get the | 3:17:29 | 3:17:39 | |
best out of them, ensuring they have
the opportunity to live a full and | 3:17:39 | 3:17:45 | |
active life, getting a job where
appropriate and bringing people | 3:17:45 | 3:17:48 | |
together from across the
communities, many whom the macro of | 3:17:48 | 3:17:52 | |
whom are very isolated. -- many of
whom are very isolated. Can I wish | 3:17:52 | 3:17:58 | |
you and your colleagues, the whole
House, all members of the house, all | 3:17:58 | 3:18:05 | |
members of staff, are very happy
Christmas? A very restful period | 3:18:05 | 3:18:10 | |
over the break. And we look forward
to 2018 being a very happy, | 3:18:10 | 3:18:16 | |
peaceful, prosperous, but above all
else, healthy New Year. I thank the | 3:18:16 | 3:18:23 | |
honourable gentleman for his kind
words on behalf of all of the House | 3:18:23 | 3:18:28 | |
and it is a great pleasure to wish
everybody and peaceful Christmas. | 3:18:28 | 3:18:32 | |
The question is that this House has
considered matters to be raised | 3:18:32 | 3:18:39 | |
before the forthcoming adjournment
and my first consideration, I'm | 3:18:39 | 3:18:43 | |
afraid, has had to be to put a time
limit on speeches because as the | 3:18:43 | 3:18:47 | |
House knows, we are quite limited
this afternoon so we begin with a | 3:18:47 | 3:18:51 | |
time limit seven minutes. It is a
great pleasure to follow the | 3:18:51 | 3:18:58 | |
honourable gentleman's wide-ranging
speech and he mentioned the | 3:18:58 | 3:19:02 | |
Christmas number one and I just want
to mention three themes wall with a | 3:19:02 | 3:19:07 | |
Christmas link. The first is the
complete absence or near complete | 3:19:07 | 3:19:14 | |
absence of trains on Boxing Day in
the UK outside of Scotland. This is | 3:19:14 | 3:19:19 | |
a situation that does not exist in
the rest of Europe where a | 3:19:19 | 3:19:23 | |
conference of train service is
provided throughout the Christmas | 3:19:23 | 3:19:25 | |
holiday -- a full train service. It
is worth this year than in previous | 3:19:25 | 3:19:35 | |
years. The great Bear pots of
Heathrow and Gatwick served by buses | 3:19:35 | 3:19:39 | |
this year rather than trains -- the
great airports. The only other line | 3:19:39 | 3:19:44 | |
in England which has a train service
is relevant to Oxford -- Marylebone | 3:19:44 | 3:19:53 | |
to Oxford. Merseyrail for the last
three years have run a service on | 3:19:53 | 3:20:00 | |
selected stations and each year it
is going from strength to strength. | 3:20:00 | 3:20:07 | |
This year, Liverpool Football Club
are at home in the early evening at | 3:20:07 | 3:20:10 | |
Anfield on Boxing Day, there is a
service running well into the | 3:20:10 | 3:20:14 | |
evening to allow fans of Liverpool
Football Club to get to the game and | 3:20:14 | 3:20:17 | |
get home. They are virtually unique
of English football fans of being | 3:20:17 | 3:20:23 | |
able to do that. The House of
Commons Library tells me that it was | 3:20:23 | 3:20:28 | |
not always like this in Christmases
past, up until 1975, there was a | 3:20:28 | 3:20:35 | |
Sunday service provided on most of
the rail network. It was gradually | 3:20:35 | 3:20:39 | |
run down until it all but
disappeared in 1980. He made well | 3:20:39 | 3:20:46 | |
ask, why is this a particular
problem? -- you may well ask. For | 3:20:46 | 3:20:50 | |
some people, it means they cannot go
home for Christmas, if they have to | 3:20:50 | 3:20:55 | |
work first thing on 27th of
December, they cannot travel back on | 3:20:55 | 3:21:00 | |
the 26th. Their sporting events, I
will be at my beloved family parade | 3:21:00 | 3:21:05 | |
watching Bradford City take on
Peterborough. I have bet on the | 3:21:05 | 3:21:13 | |
genie later of Bradford City, Leeds
and Burnley all winning that day to | 3:21:13 | 3:21:17 | |
cover my bases in the constituency
-- I have bet on an accumulator. | 3:21:17 | 3:21:24 | |
There are sales, there is all sorts
of events, theatres and so on, and | 3:21:24 | 3:21:28 | |
we often talk in this House about
loneliness and it is too long to | 3:21:28 | 3:21:33 | |
close down this network, for nearly
60 hours, not to speak of what it | 3:21:33 | 3:21:40 | |
does for the environment as well.
There is some hope in the north of | 3:21:40 | 3:21:45 | |
England, in the Northern Rail
franchise, Northern Rail will have | 3:21:45 | 3:21:50 | |
to provide 60 services next Boxing
Day, 2018, those will be the first | 3:21:50 | 3:21:55 | |
trains hopefully in Yorkshire. Since
1980, I believe. Trans-Pennine are | 3:21:55 | 3:22:03 | |
obliged to suggest the Government
Boxing Day services which they have | 3:22:03 | 3:22:05 | |
done and I hope the Government will
find or discuss those with | 3:22:05 | 3:22:11 | |
trans-Pennine and the necessary
funding will mean Manchester Airport | 3:22:11 | 3:22:15 | |
will be served for the first time
ever, its busiest day, there should | 3:22:15 | 3:22:20 | |
be trains. If there are trains at
Stansted, good enough. Instead, it | 3:22:20 | 3:22:25 | |
is good enough for Manchester. I
think we need to stop the blame game | 3:22:25 | 3:22:30 | |
between the two frontbenchers --
good enough for Stansted, it is good | 3:22:30 | 3:22:37 | |
enough Manchester. Every December
the 26, it draws attention to this. | 3:22:37 | 3:22:41 | |
Whether the railways are in public
or private hands, the House must | 3:22:41 | 3:22:48 | |
insist there is a basic service on
Boxing Day. Moving on to food, I am | 3:22:48 | 3:22:53 | |
looking forward to my Christmas
dinner, but can we trust the food on | 3:22:53 | 3:22:57 | |
the table? There was a report from
the Guardian about chicken | 3:22:57 | 3:23:01 | |
processing plant in particular the
food group two Sisters in September | 3:23:01 | 3:23:09 | |
which suggested standards were well
below what we would expect. In West | 3:23:09 | 3:23:15 | |
Brom, there was chicken on the
floor, production was suspended. It | 3:23:15 | 3:23:19 | |
has got worse in recent days. They
have now revealed Tesco gave a red | 3:23:19 | 3:23:29 | |
warning to Hanukah food group, they
have 12 plants altogether, it was | 3:23:29 | 3:23:33 | |
another one about the same time --
to two Sisters food group, Cupar | 3:23:33 | 3:23:40 | |
Angus, in this case, the labelling
was virtually nonexistent, some | 3:23:40 | 3:23:45 | |
chicken had been condemned as unfit
for human consumption, it was not | 3:23:45 | 3:23:50 | |
clear what had happened to it, but
it is extremely worrying that Tesco | 3:23:50 | 3:23:54 | |
knew this and yet the chief
executive did a press conference in | 3:23:54 | 3:23:59 | |
October, David Lewis, he was asked,
did he have any knowledge the | 3:23:59 | 3:24:03 | |
problem is extended beyond the West
Bromwich plant, he answered, in his | 3:24:03 | 3:24:08 | |
knowledge, Tesco did not have
anything that would indicate that | 3:24:08 | 3:24:11 | |
what was seen in West Bromwich was
present in any of the others. Yet | 3:24:11 | 3:24:15 | |
Tesco had just given a red warning.
I think he has some explaining to | 3:24:15 | 3:24:22 | |
do. Why did Tesco not provide this
information to the public and the | 3:24:22 | 3:24:30 | |
Food Standards Agency? All
supermarkets should do this in the | 3:24:30 | 3:24:32 | |
future and I think there should be
CCTV in all plants, as in abattoirs, | 3:24:32 | 3:24:40 | |
so that at Christmas time and
through the year, we can trust the | 3:24:40 | 3:24:43 | |
food on our table. Finally, we have
already had a couple of references | 3:24:43 | 3:24:47 | |
to the importance of churches at
Christmas. In Yorkshire, we are | 3:24:47 | 3:24:52 | |
particularly proud on BBC One on the
live midnight Mass this year comes | 3:24:52 | 3:24:55 | |
from the Catholic Cathedral in
Leeds. It has a magnificent choir. | 3:24:55 | 3:25:02 | |
Members across the House in recent
years on occasion have been critical | 3:25:02 | 3:25:06 | |
of the BBC's commitment to religious
broadcasting. In the last few days, | 3:25:06 | 3:25:11 | |
I think the BBC have responded with
a rather good report which I commend | 3:25:11 | 3:25:16 | |
to the House. I think they are
recognising they alone are the | 3:25:16 | 3:25:21 | |
public service broadcasters and have
a responsibility to bring religious | 3:25:21 | 3:25:24 | |
broadcasting to the country, they
have committed to having a religious | 3:25:24 | 3:25:29 | |
affairs editor and religious team
backing them and I would commend | 3:25:29 | 3:25:32 | |
that report to the House. All that
remains for me to do is to wish you | 3:25:32 | 3:25:37 | |
and the House and Merry Christmas
and to reveal, I mentioned my | 3:25:37 | 3:25:41 | |
football but, my accompanying bet,
charity bet, placed at Ladbrokes, | 3:25:41 | 3:25:46 | |
for the King George, the big horse
race, another part of the sporting | 3:25:46 | 3:25:51 | |
Christmas on Boxing Day, was for
Thistle Crack. I cannot follow the | 3:25:51 | 3:26:03 | |
previous speaker on anything except
wishing everyone a Merry Christmas. | 3:26:03 | 3:26:11 | |
This sporting interest, a round
ball. I prefer the ball with a | 3:26:11 | 3:26:16 | |
slight tweaking at the end. I want
to raise one issue, unfashionably, | 3:26:16 | 3:26:20 | |
it is and then's issue. It is
well-known to the House and the | 3:26:20 | 3:26:25 | |
Sunday Telegraph I am a very
part-time dentist and I chaired the | 3:26:25 | 3:26:29 | |
all-party Parliamentary group for
dentistry this means the profession | 3:26:29 | 3:26:34 | |
push me for various causes and this
one I want to raise. I wish the | 3:26:34 | 3:26:44 | |
Government to extend HPV vaccination
to boys as well as girls. I raise | 3:26:44 | 3:26:47 | |
the issue now and it might be timely
because I understand the Joint | 3:26:47 | 3:26:52 | |
Committee on Vaccination and
Immunisation is about to report to | 3:26:52 | 3:26:54 | |
the Secretary of State for Health on
this issue. There are a number of | 3:26:54 | 3:26:58 | |
HPV viruses, two are very nasty. The
vaccination of girls against the | 3:26:58 | 3:27:03 | |
virus is to stop survive cut cancer.
These viruses also calls genital | 3:27:03 | 3:27:09 | |
warts and other cancers and slowly
but surely there will be with our | 3:27:09 | 3:27:13 | |
vaccination programme for girls, a
reasonable herd immunity. I'm saying | 3:27:13 | 3:27:19 | |
reasonable because the vaccination
is far from 100%, many girls start | 3:27:19 | 3:27:23 | |
the course but do not completed,
many do not start it. The viruses | 3:27:23 | 3:27:29 | |
also calls between 35 and 70% of
head and neck cancer, depending on | 3:27:29 | 3:27:37 | |
the anatomical site. For example,
70% of oropharyngeal cancers are | 3:27:37 | 3:27:42 | |
caused by the virus. Treatment of
head and neck cancers are often | 3:27:42 | 3:27:47 | |
debilitating, destructive to the
patients and their self-esteem. | 3:27:47 | 3:27:51 | |
Frequently radiology and surgery is
required and this involves the face, | 3:27:51 | 3:27:55 | |
the jaw, teeth, neck, tongue,
oesophagus, or combination physical | 3:27:55 | 3:28:02 | |
disfigurement is common, speech and
eating can be significantly impaired | 3:28:02 | 3:28:08 | |
and the global ranking of cancer
deaths, head and neck cancers rank | 3:28:08 | 3:28:13 | |
fifth. The prevalence of head and
neck cancer is markedly higher in | 3:28:13 | 3:28:17 | |
males than females. A ratio of two
to one. It is and then's problem. | 3:28:17 | 3:28:23 | |
The frequency of the cancer is one
of the fastest increasing in the UK | 3:28:23 | 3:28:27 | |
and the cost of treatment to the NHS
is astronomic. Vaccination | 3:28:27 | 3:28:33 | |
programmes can eliminate or
virtually eliminate certain diseases | 3:28:33 | 3:28:35 | |
by producing herd immunity. The
polio campaign is an example. The | 3:28:35 | 3:28:41 | |
success of the HPV vaccination for
girls in the UK is considerable but | 3:28:41 | 3:28:48 | |
it is not producing full herd
immunity. We recently had a | 3:28:48 | 3:28:53 | |
Westminster debate on HPV
vaccination for men who have sex | 3:28:53 | 3:28:56 | |
with men. In the case of... It is
relevant as to who is having sex | 3:28:56 | 3:29:04 | |
with you. There are still off a
portion of us left, heterosexual | 3:29:04 | 3:29:09 | |
men, we are very vulnerable. The
estimate is that 10% of young girls | 3:29:09 | 3:29:14 | |
do not get the full vaccination
cover, research suggests 20% of | 3:29:14 | 3:29:22 | |
16-24-year-old men have had ten or
more sexual partners, so | 3:29:22 | 3:29:26 | |
statistically, one of those partners
had not been vaccinated. Vaccination | 3:29:26 | 3:29:35 | |
programme for girls and boys would
stand a chance of herd immunity. Set | 3:29:35 | 3:29:41 | |
the cost against the 58,000,004
treating genital warts and way over | 3:29:41 | 3:29:46 | |
300,000,004 head and neck cancer,
what is important is not who is | 3:29:46 | 3:29:51 | |
having sex with who, but the need
for the herd immunity. If Australia, | 3:29:51 | 3:29:58 | |
Austria, Canada, Israel, the US,
Switzerland, New Zealand, if they | 3:29:58 | 3:30:01 | |
can manage this, we can too. To put
it simply, it is not fair, not | 3:30:01 | 3:30:08 | |
ethical, not socially responsible to
have a public health policy that | 3:30:08 | 3:30:13 | |
leaves 50% of the population
vulnerable to HPV and head and neck | 3:30:13 | 3:30:17 | |
cancer. Thank you. I will be brief.
I believe that one of the best uses | 3:30:17 | 3:30:28 | |
of time in the future in this
parliament would be a thoughtful | 3:30:28 | 3:30:33 | |
consideration of how the devolved
administrations and the UK | 3:30:33 | 3:30:35 | |
Parliament can work best together to
benefit constituents and | 3:30:35 | 3:30:40 | |
particularly constituents in my
faster and far-flung part of | 3:30:40 | 3:30:43 | |
Scotland. I will touch on three
subjects which I apologise for | 3:30:43 | 3:30:48 | |
because you have heard most of them
before but I am duty bound to do so. | 3:30:48 | 3:30:56 | |
The first is broadband. When you are
dealing with distances adds -- as | 3:30:56 | 3:31:03 | |
fast as mine, it presents particular
challenges. In the past we have seen | 3:31:03 | 3:31:06 | |
in this chamber not so long ago a
bit backwards and forwards between | 3:31:06 | 3:31:10 | |
either side about whose fault it is.
I don't want to get into that but it | 3:31:10 | 3:31:15 | |
seems to me that if one could have a
meeting of minds, perhaps we could | 3:31:15 | 3:31:20 | |
work together to tackle this issue.
Because I am a Remainer, as everyone | 3:31:20 | 3:31:25 | |
in this chamber knows. Whatever form
Brexit Britain takes, we will need | 3:31:25 | 3:31:31 | |
connectivity absolutely in the
future if we are to compete in a | 3:31:31 | 3:31:33 | |
world market. I hope we can all
accept that. Equally, I have many | 3:31:33 | 3:31:41 | |
times mentioned universal credit,
but the problems it presents to my | 3:31:41 | 3:31:46 | |
constituents, inasmuch as many of
them cannot go online to access it. | 3:31:46 | 3:31:49 | |
Enough said on broadband. In the
north of my constituency, we have an | 3:31:49 | 3:31:58 | |
atomic energy, former nuclear power
station which has been | 3:31:58 | 3:32:00 | |
decommissioned. We have a skills
base there, second to none. And the | 3:32:00 | 3:32:06 | |
chance for me and for everyone who
cares about employment in the far | 3:32:06 | 3:32:09 | |
north of Scotland is to see how to
utilise these skills in future in | 3:32:09 | 3:32:13 | |
that area. At the Scottish
Government level we have the | 3:32:13 | 3:32:17 | |
Highlands and Islands enterprise,
trying to encourage economic | 3:32:17 | 3:32:22 | |
development. But we also have the
MDA, which is a function of | 3:32:22 | 3:32:26 | |
Westminster. So the more joined up,
I know it is a cliche, but the more | 3:32:26 | 3:32:30 | |
joined up we can be, the more I can
say to the working people in my | 3:32:30 | 3:32:36 | |
constituency, we are doing our best
to look to your future and to see | 3:32:36 | 3:32:39 | |
what we can do. The temptation would
be to go down the health route, and | 3:32:39 | 3:32:46 | |
I am sure members of the Scottish
National Party would yawn if I did | 3:32:46 | 3:32:49 | |
that. I am not going to. But I am
going to mention however, energy and | 3:32:49 | 3:32:56 | |
energy production. I received a
letter from a constituent who owns | 3:32:56 | 3:33:00 | |
and runs a business, an engineering
business. He has recently got | 3:33:00 | 3:33:07 | |
planning permission to build a
turbine which will cost him just | 3:33:07 | 3:33:10 | |
short of half £1 million to do. It
is great that he has got the | 3:33:10 | 3:33:14 | |
go-ahead. But due to problems with
the local electricity grid, he | 3:33:14 | 3:33:19 | |
cannot export that surplus energy he
is going to make. He is actually | 3:33:19 | 3:33:25 | |
faced with buying a large number of
electric heaters and heating the | 3:33:25 | 3:33:31 | |
night air. A nice idea, you might
think, to get rid of the insects and | 3:33:31 | 3:33:36 | |
keep the odd poacher warm, but it
does not achieve very much. We need | 3:33:36 | 3:33:42 | |
energy in this country, to make
every bit of energy we can and to | 3:33:42 | 3:33:46 | |
use it efficiently, so a joined up
view of government North and south | 3:33:46 | 3:33:50 | |
of the border would be hugely
helpful. I take a view, perhaps in | 3:33:50 | 3:33:56 | |
opposition to colleagues on benches
here, that the UK is here to stay. | 3:33:56 | 3:34:01 | |
And doing things for broadband and
energy, they do not respect national | 3:34:01 | 3:34:05 | |
boundaries, they are for the good of
the UK. The same goes with how we | 3:34:05 | 3:34:09 | |
decommissioned nuclear sites and use
the skills and approach the future. | 3:34:09 | 3:34:14 | |
That is really all I have to say
except, like others, I would like to | 3:34:14 | 3:34:18 | |
thank all that has been done in
here. I am no longer a new member. I | 3:34:18 | 3:34:24 | |
have been here six months. I want to
say something personal to me. I have | 3:34:24 | 3:34:29 | |
been touched by the kindliness,
support and advice I have received | 3:34:29 | 3:34:34 | |
from all sides and all parties in
this chamber. That is something that | 3:34:34 | 3:34:39 | |
strikes me as being very special
about how this place works and I am | 3:34:39 | 3:34:44 | |
deeply grateful. Can I wish Mr
Speaker, yourself and or the Deputy | 3:34:44 | 3:34:48 | |
speakers and every member of this
House and the other place as well, | 3:34:48 | 3:34:52 | |
not that I frequent it very often,
the merriest Christmas. I thank you. | 3:34:52 | 3:35:02 | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.
Happy Christmas, everyone, | 3:35:02 | 3:35:05 | |
especially to my friend the
honourably brave lady for West Ham, | 3:35:05 | 3:35:13 | |
who sometimes speaks in debates such
as this one on procedures which far | 3:35:13 | 3:35:20 | |
too many women have had to undergo
without pain relief. And I wish to | 3:35:20 | 3:35:25 | |
put on record my full support for
her campaign to sort that out. | 3:35:25 | 3:35:30 | |
Personally today, I would like to
raise the matter of central | 3:35:30 | 3:35:35 | |
government funding on behalf of my
own constituency, Beckenham. We live | 3:35:35 | 3:35:40 | |
in the borough of Bromley, which is
represented in this place by three | 3:35:40 | 3:35:44 | |
Tories and one Labour MP. In 2017
and 2018, Bromley, of the 32 London | 3:35:44 | 3:35:55 | |
boroughs, have the fifth smallest
settlement funding. But it has the | 3:35:55 | 3:36:00 | |
seventh highest population.
Actually, Bromley is the largest | 3:36:00 | 3:36:07 | |
London borough in terms of
geographical size. It has one of the | 3:36:07 | 3:36:11 | |
highest proportions of older people,
and most certainly the most | 3:36:11 | 3:36:16 | |
extensive road network. Yet the
associated cost implications of | 3:36:16 | 3:36:19 | |
these factors are not reflected in
our settlement funding, which is the | 3:36:19 | 3:36:24 | |
second lowest, per head, in London.
Despite this, Bromley has dealt with | 3:36:24 | 3:36:32 | |
its finances extremely efficiently.
And our council tax remains | 3:36:32 | 3:36:39 | |
relatively low, considering the
local services provided and our low | 3:36:39 | 3:36:44 | |
central government funding
settlement. But it has not been | 3:36:44 | 3:36:47 | |
easy. Bromley Council has been
hugely innovative in tackling its | 3:36:47 | 3:36:53 | |
tasks. It has created as low a cost
base as possible, pioneering many | 3:36:53 | 3:37:01 | |
measures to balance cost, value and
outcomes. It has outsourced, | 3:37:01 | 3:37:07 | |
whenever that makes sense, and
within reason, and where it gets | 3:37:07 | 3:37:12 | |
most efficiency at low cost. And it
has created leisure trusts which | 3:37:12 | 3:37:17 | |
work. Finally, it does all this by
maintaining relentless cost control | 3:37:17 | 3:37:25 | |
measures on all its activities.
However, now most of the cost saving | 3:37:25 | 3:37:33 | |
measures which many other boroughs
have yet to take have been | 3:37:33 | 3:37:36 | |
implemented in Bromley. The obvious
implications for this, Madam Deputy | 3:37:36 | 3:37:43 | |
Speaker, is that there is little
scope to achieve many more savings. | 3:37:43 | 3:37:50 | |
Our flexibility on further cuts is
hugely constrained without reducing | 3:37:50 | 3:37:54 | |
our statutory requirements.
Bromley's core funding has been cut | 3:37:54 | 3:37:59 | |
higher than the London and England
average continuously since 2010. | 3:37:59 | 3:38:06 | |
This will have been reduced by 75%
in real terms over the course of the | 3:38:06 | 3:38:11 | |
decade. In core funding, real terms,
that means by 2020, Bromley's | 3:38:11 | 3:38:19 | |
central government funding will have
been reduced to a quarter of what it | 3:38:19 | 3:38:23 | |
was in 2010, although I accept that
it does have a new methods of | 3:38:23 | 3:38:28 | |
raising money. However, since 2010,
Bromley has managed to generate | 3:38:28 | 3:38:35 | |
savings of 90 million. But as is
obvious, the low-level and middle | 3:38:35 | 3:38:42 | |
level hanging fruit cuts have now
been taken. Bromley Council, with | 3:38:42 | 3:38:49 | |
reluctance, has no choice but to put
its statutory requirements into the | 3:38:49 | 3:38:53 | |
firing line. By 2030, Bromley's
population is expected to increase | 3:38:53 | 3:39:01 | |
considerably more than the national
average. But unfortunately, future | 3:39:01 | 3:39:10 | |
funding is currently not assessed on
population growth. Using GL a | 3:39:10 | 3:39:16 | |
central estimates between 2017 and
37, over six D5s are expected to | 3:39:16 | 3:39:27 | |
increase by 44% and over 90s are
expected to increase by 123%, which | 3:39:27 | 3:39:32 | |
is an overall population increase in
Bromley of 18% over that period. | 3:39:32 | 3:39:40 | |
Surely this must be considered when
actually looking at central | 3:39:40 | 3:39:43 | |
government funding. It is now widely
recognised that all areas of | 3:39:43 | 3:39:49 | |
England, in all areas of England
there is an urgent need for a fairer | 3:39:49 | 3:39:55 | |
system of central government
funding. It seems decision is on | 3:39:55 | 3:39:59 | |
this may be delayed until 2021. In
the meantime, Bromley could be | 3:39:59 | 3:40:07 | |
punished for being an ultra
efficient council. This is not only | 3:40:07 | 3:40:11 | |
unfair, it is wrong. For their part,
councillors in Bromley feel that our | 3:40:11 | 3:40:18 | |
efforts at keeping costs down and
making efficiencies are largely | 3:40:18 | 3:40:21 | |
unrecognised by the government.
Efficient running of local | 3:40:21 | 3:40:27 | |
government should be encouraged, not
penalised. So I ask the government | 3:40:27 | 3:40:33 | |
to reconsider the situation in
Bromley, recognise what has been | 3:40:33 | 3:40:38 | |
achieved, and ensure that the
Borough is properly supported in the | 3:40:38 | 3:40:44 | |
interim by another transitional
grant, which the Secretary of State | 3:40:44 | 3:40:49 | |
for communities and low of and has
previously provided to help us out. | 3:40:49 | 3:40:52 | |
I repeat, Madam Deputy Speaker,
happy Christmas to everyone. | 3:40:52 | 3:40:59 | |
Everyone in this chamber and
throughout the land. Thank you. As | 3:40:59 | 3:41:06 | |
is customary, I would like to wish
everyone in this House a happy | 3:41:06 | 3:41:10 | |
Christmas and I wanted to raise and
unseasonal tale of big business, big | 3:41:10 | 3:41:15 | |
infrastructure and small business
that affects the Park Royal chunk of | 3:41:15 | 3:41:21 | |
my constituency. Park Royal was once
Europe's largest industrial estate. | 3:41:21 | 3:41:26 | |
Things like planes were built there
for both world wars, munitions, the | 3:41:26 | 3:41:31 | |
Heinz factory was there, Guinness
emanated from Park Royal. But now it | 3:41:31 | 3:41:35 | |
finds itself on the receiving end of
the heavy-handed HS2, so that is the | 3:41:35 | 3:41:43 | |
big infrastructure. In Ealing
Central and Acton, we have a lot of | 3:41:43 | 3:41:45 | |
these big infrastructure projects.
Planes going to Heathrow flight over | 3:41:45 | 3:41:50 | |
us, we are in the flight path.
Crossrail is coming to link east and | 3:41:50 | 3:41:54 | |
west to our patch of the world, and
so is HS2. But in this season of | 3:41:54 | 3:42:02 | |
goodwill and good faith, and I voted
for the HS2 project, I like the idea | 3:42:02 | 3:42:07 | |
of High Speed Rail Bill
connectivity. A bunch of small | 3:42:07 | 3:42:11 | |
businesses in the Park Royal
industrial estate feel they have | 3:42:11 | 3:42:13 | |
been shafted... Sorry, that is
unparliamentary language. Is that | 3:42:13 | 3:42:20 | |
OK? They have been ill treated by
HS2 at this time of year and they | 3:42:20 | 3:42:24 | |
wanted me to raise their plight. I
am doing that in this forum because | 3:42:24 | 3:42:28 | |
talking of goodwill, Robert
Goodwill, a member for Scarborough, | 3:42:28 | 3:42:35 | |
a good Yorkshireman, I remember
raising HS2 issues to him across | 3:42:35 | 3:42:39 | |
this House, and it worked for a time
being, so I am seeing if it works | 3:42:39 | 3:42:44 | |
again. He was then Minister for rail
and is now children's minister. In | 3:42:44 | 3:42:49 | |
2016 he came to Park Royal. I said,
would he come and see for himself | 3:42:49 | 3:42:54 | |
what is going on. It used to be a
place of big business and now it is | 3:42:54 | 3:43:03 | |
much smaller, Mediterranean food
manufacturers, prop hire, laundries, | 3:43:03 | 3:43:06 | |
all sorts of small family
businesses, families, livelihoods, | 3:43:06 | 3:43:10 | |
that sort of thing depends on it. It
has been named in the Independent as | 3:43:10 | 3:43:17 | |
a mini Beirut. That sounds scary but
many Middle Eastern food | 3:43:17 | 3:43:21 | |
manufacturers come out of Park
Royal. If you get back Laver in a | 3:43:21 | 3:43:26 | |
West End restaurant, it is likely to
have been made in my constituency. A | 3:43:26 | 3:43:31 | |
number of these small companies were
told initially when it happened that | 3:43:31 | 3:43:34 | |
they would be given six months to
relocate. There was no assurance | 3:43:34 | 3:43:38 | |
when that would happen, this whole
HS2 project. The minister came with | 3:43:38 | 3:43:43 | |
me. We sought assurances were
received that they would have a | 3:43:43 | 3:43:49 | |
relocation grant and they would have
good time in which they could start | 3:43:49 | 3:43:52 | |
their businesses up and running
again. A prop hire business. We know | 3:43:52 | 3:43:57 | |
one here has ever been to one of
those. It is a cause of square feet, | 3:43:57 | 3:44:02 | |
vintage telephones, all sorts of
things, whalebone corsets, cereal | 3:44:02 | 3:44:08 | |
packets, things that are not easy to
relocate -- to locate. So the | 3:44:08 | 3:44:14 | |
minister said there would be a
£250,000 disturbance payment. That | 3:44:14 | 3:44:19 | |
is a strange word for someone who is
forcibly moved elsewhere. But these | 3:44:19 | 3:44:26 | |
have not been forthcoming. HS2 are
very clever. They can operate within | 3:44:26 | 3:44:30 | |
the letter of the law, so these are
assurances, not legally binding | 3:44:30 | 3:44:34 | |
guarantees. A bunch of people have
written to me. This is 300 | 3:44:34 | 3:44:41 | |
employees, their families, facing
Christmas with an uncertain future. | 3:44:41 | 3:44:47 | |
Some of them have two premises,
paying for two lots of in and leases | 3:44:47 | 3:44:53 | |
and staff, and there was one that
was on BBC London recently where | 3:44:53 | 3:44:57 | |
workers have down tools and gone
because they are not being paid | 3:44:57 | 3:45:03 | |
because the advance payment from HS2
has not been forthcoming. If we say | 3:45:03 | 3:45:09 | |
the ghost of Christmas past was the
rail minister who came and gave | 3:45:09 | 3:45:12 | |
these promises in good faith, I
believe, there is something that has | 3:45:12 | 3:45:17 | |
gone wrong. HS2 seems to be
haemorrhaging Chief Executive | 3:45:17 | 3:45:23 | |
officers. It is overtime and over
budget and I know honourable friends | 3:45:23 | 3:45:27 | |
of mine from this side, further into
London, they opposed to this. I did | 3:45:27 | 3:45:39 | |
not. As I say, I did not. But I am
losing patience with HS2, and also | 3:45:39 | 3:45:50 | |
what they do to residents. I have
three roads, Shaftesbury Gardens, | 3:45:50 | 3:45:57 | |
Midland Terrace, Wells house Road,
facing ten years of Works, 24-7. A | 3:45:57 | 3:46:02 | |
child born now would go to its tenth
birthday living on a building site. | 3:46:02 | 3:46:07 | |
The only assurance they have been
given is secondary glazing for one | 3:46:07 | 3:46:11 | |
side of one of these roads. That is
not good enough. When I raised this | 3:46:11 | 3:46:16 | |
with the Secretary of State for
Transport he said, my door is open. | 3:46:16 | 3:46:21 | |
I have written letters, written
questions on this and it feels like | 3:46:21 | 3:46:24 | |
banging my head on a brick wall.
When we have that chink of light | 3:46:24 | 3:46:28 | |
when I raised it with the rail
minister, it worked, to raise it in | 3:46:28 | 3:46:32 | |
this House, so I am trying again. It
feels they are negotiating a web of | 3:46:32 | 3:46:37 | |
bureaucracy. In order to get these
payments, £250,000 for a big | 3:46:37 | 3:46:45 | |
business with a turnover in the
millions is a drop in the ocean. The | 3:46:45 | 3:46:49 | |
relocation costs will be much more.
And they feel the amount of hoops | 3:46:49 | 3:46:54 | |
they have had to jump through is
just not supportable at this time. | 3:46:54 | 3:47:00 | |
Old oak is identified by the Mayor
of London as a super development | 3:47:00 | 3:47:08 | |
opportunity area with 26,000 new
dwellings, two tube stations, | 3:47:08 | 3:47:12 | |
Crossrail and HS2. There is a lot of
promise. And all of the marketing | 3:47:12 | 3:47:19 | |
information says it will be an
incubator for new businesses, but | 3:47:19 | 3:47:23 | |
these are not businesses -- these
are businesses that have been built | 3:47:23 | 3:47:27 | |
over years, family businesses,
facing a bleak Christmas. | 3:47:27 | 3:47:35 | |
Peter Bone say they will give
sufficient liquidity to make a | 3:47:35 | 3:47:38 | |
satisfactory arrangements for
relocation. -- HS2 say. I have been | 3:47:38 | 3:47:45 | |
trying to defend this but both my
residents and businesses have had | 3:47:45 | 3:47:49 | |
enough of HS2. It is very
disappointing it has come at this | 3:47:49 | 3:47:57 | |
time of year and if assurances are
only assurances, they are not | 3:47:57 | 3:48:00 | |
legally enforceable, they are not
worth the paper they are written on | 3:48:00 | 3:48:03 | |
frankly. Christmas past, present and
future, as for the future, I hope | 3:48:03 | 3:48:14 | |
the New Year we have better news for
these businesses and residents. | 3:48:14 | 3:48:21 | |
Before the house adjourned for the
Christmas recess there are a number | 3:48:21 | 3:48:25 | |
of points to raise. Constituent
former model, Cressy suffers from | 3:48:25 | 3:48:32 | |
endometriosis, a condition diagnosed
in January 2016 and she is doing | 3:48:32 | 3:48:37 | |
everything she can to launch a
campaign to make 14-18 -year-old | 3:48:37 | 3:48:42 | |
girl is aware of this disease and I
will do everything I can to help her | 3:48:42 | 3:48:47 | |
raise awareness. It is a matter we
have debated time after time in this | 3:48:47 | 3:48:54 | |
house and I am still getting many
letters from constituents and they | 3:48:54 | 3:48:58 | |
claimed they were not made aware of
these changes. I know it will be | 3:48:58 | 3:49:01 | |
difficult for the government but I
think we are going to have to look | 3:49:01 | 3:49:05 | |
at this situation again. In November
I met with the Institute of | 3:49:05 | 3:49:09 | |
fundraising. We have many wonderful
charities, but they bought to my | 3:49:09 | 3:49:14 | |
attention the potential difficulties
of general data protection | 3:49:14 | 3:49:20 | |
regulation will have. It is a good
law but it poses a number of | 3:49:20 | 3:49:24 | |
difficulties for charities. My own
party in the New Year will be | 3:49:24 | 3:49:29 | |
launching diversity to win and I'm
honoured to be a patron together | 3:49:29 | 3:49:32 | |
with Baroness Jenkin, our right
honourable friend the member for | 3:49:32 | 3:49:37 | |
hammerheads and the pro-ministered
to make a party even more diverse. | 3:49:37 | 3:49:42 | |
In October I was privileged to be
present at the Queens award for | 3:49:42 | 3:49:46 | |
voluntary services to two local
charities to help people with mental | 3:49:46 | 3:49:50 | |
health issues and other very
difficult situations. I pay tribute | 3:49:50 | 3:49:56 | |
to crossing boundaries and grown
together. The voluntary sector | 3:49:56 | 3:49:59 | |
thrives in all of our constituencies
but particularly in Southend. Our | 3:49:59 | 3:50:07 | |
association of voluntary services is
delivering a nationally dash mount | 3:50:07 | 3:50:11 | |
grub national lottery funded project
which is | 3:50:11 | 3:50:13 | |
. -- delivering a national lottery
funded project. We had our tea party | 3:50:18 | 3:50:25 | |
made was a privilege to welcome
these wonderful ladies and gentlemen | 3:50:25 | 3:50:30 | |
celebrating being 100 and more
years. The high enterprise Centre is | 3:50:30 | 3:50:33 | |
a wonderful project in the centre of
the constituency which offers | 3:50:33 | 3:50:39 | |
state-of-the-art business
opportunities for people. Phone | 3:50:39 | 3:50:44 | |
scams, I raised this recently, I'm
sick of getting calls from people | 3:50:44 | 3:50:47 | |
think I have been involved in an
accident. It has to be dealt with by | 3:50:47 | 3:50:51 | |
the government. I was successful in
two dozen in getting onto the | 3:50:51 | 3:50:59 | |
statute book the fuel poverty act.
-- 2000. This has to be looked at | 3:50:59 | 3:51:04 | |
again and I will be introducing a
new bill next year and that will | 3:51:04 | 3:51:10 | |
bring fuel poor homes up to a B C
band C by 2030 and for all homes to | 3:51:10 | 3:51:17 | |
meet the same standard by 2035. I
can see present the honourable | 3:51:17 | 3:51:25 | |
member from the city of Hull and I
congratulate them on being the city | 3:51:25 | 3:51:30 | |
of culture this year but
Southend-on-Sea was the alternative | 3:51:30 | 3:51:32 | |
city of culture this year and it has
been a triumphant year for the town | 3:51:32 | 3:51:38 | |
that I'm honoured to represent. Our
wonderful charity the music man | 3:51:38 | 3:51:45 | |
project performed at the London
Palladium and in 2019 they will be | 3:51:45 | 3:51:49 | |
performing at the Royal Albert Hall.
We had a wonderful collection of | 3:51:49 | 3:51:54 | |
ceramic poppies organised by the
British Legion who were celebrating | 3:51:54 | 3:52:01 | |
their 80th anniversary and that was
displayed all along the cliffs of | 3:52:01 | 3:52:04 | |
Southend. It has been a wonderful
year and the best Christmas present | 3:52:04 | 3:52:10 | |
Southend could have it if we are
declared a city. I am in discussions | 3:52:10 | 3:52:17 | |
with our honourable friend the
Minister for the constitution so he | 3:52:17 | 3:52:23 | |
can organise a contest is that there
has to be one for city status next | 3:52:23 | 3:52:27 | |
year and I think we could have it
around the occasion of the royal | 3:52:27 | 3:52:30 | |
wedding. I'm very close with the
organisation who want people in Iran | 3:52:30 | 3:52:38 | |
to enjoy democracy which is not the
case at the moment and I have | 3:52:38 | 3:52:42 | |
lobbied the UN and the Nobel Peace
Prize committee ad also addressed a | 3:52:42 | 3:52:45 | |
conference on the issue in this
colour mode. The Southend citizens | 3:52:45 | 3:52:50 | |
advice bureau has bought my
attention further issues regarding | 3:52:50 | 3:52:54 | |
Universal Credit. These include the
Gorgie in submitting online | 3:52:54 | 3:52:59 | |
applications, inaccurate calculation
and delays in both the cleaning | 3:52:59 | 3:53:03 | |
process and payments. I do think it
has to be explained why petrol | 3:53:03 | 3:53:07 | |
prices are going up as quickly as
they are at the moment, something is | 3:53:07 | 3:53:12 | |
wrong there. We had a debate on
stroke and mechanical from back to | 3:53:12 | 3:53:20 | |
me is something I hope will be
rolled out through out the United | 3:53:20 | 3:53:24 | |
Kingdom. Constituent told me there
is not enough provision in schools | 3:53:24 | 3:53:29 | |
to help children who have diabetes.
The University of Essex which has a | 3:53:29 | 3:53:36 | |
campus in Southend received its
highest ever ranking in the Times | 3:53:36 | 3:53:42 | |
University guide and rescue Anglia
University has a wonderful medical | 3:53:42 | 3:53:46 | |
Centre which is being developed. I
was privileged this year to enjoy | 3:53:46 | 3:53:50 | |
Essex boys and girls club's event in
Hadley Park which was successful. | 3:53:50 | 3:53:56 | |
Project for tonight is an
award-winning service within | 3:53:56 | 3:53:58 | |
Southend for adults with learning
disabilities and I absolutely | 3:53:58 | 3:54:04 | |
support their efforts as I do the
active Asian community event which | 3:54:04 | 3:54:08 | |
was organised by Southend Alder
Peters assembly earlier this year. I | 3:54:08 | 3:54:13 | |
think this has been a difficult and
challenging year for | 3:54:13 | 3:54:20 | |
parliamentarians in all sorts of
ways. There has been much sadness | 3:54:20 | 3:54:23 | |
really. I just hope that everyone
will focus on something good and | 3:54:23 | 3:54:30 | |
positive which has happened in their
life and we thank all the staff of | 3:54:30 | 3:54:35 | |
this place who support us and I wish
you, Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr | 3:54:35 | 3:54:40 | |
Speaker and the other deputies are
very happy Christmas, a wonderful | 3:54:40 | 3:54:43 | |
and joyous New Year. | 3:54:43 | 3:54:46 | |
As alluded to by my honourable
friend the member for Beckenham, I | 3:54:50 | 3:54:56 | |
often use this particular debate to
talk about women's health matters in | 3:54:56 | 3:54:59 | |
a way that can make some grown men
wince but I have to say that he and | 3:54:59 | 3:55:06 | |
other honourable members on both
sides of the house have been very | 3:55:06 | 3:55:10 | |
generous with that support about the
hysteroscopy campaign and I'm happy | 3:55:10 | 3:55:14 | |
to report that following a meeting
with the minister this week, a very | 3:55:14 | 3:55:19 | |
good meeting, I'm hopeful that some
progress can be made so I thank him | 3:55:19 | 3:55:24 | |
and others for the support they have
given. Is the progress the | 3:55:24 | 3:55:30 | |
honourable lady refers to pain free
for ladies that have to undergo this | 3:55:30 | 3:55:35 | |
treatment? The woman health minister
that I met with has read the | 3:55:35 | 3:55:43 | |
testimonies of the women that I
presented and she was horrified by | 3:55:43 | 3:55:48 | |
them, as this house has been when I
have read them out before. She and I | 3:55:48 | 3:55:53 | |
are very clear that it is about
choice and informed choice and about | 3:55:53 | 3:55:58 | |
making sure that women get what they
need rather than what is cheapest. | 3:55:58 | 3:56:03 | |
We are both on the same page with
that although I do not want to put | 3:56:03 | 3:56:07 | |
words in her mouth but is was a very
happy meeting. Today I only have | 3:56:07 | 3:56:13 | |
three issues that I want to bring
before the house and not four. You | 3:56:13 | 3:56:21 | |
pick it a great execution regularly
sending more people from | 3:56:21 | 3:56:27 | |
disadvantaged backgrounds to
university than any other sixth form | 3:56:27 | 3:56:32 | |
in England including Russell group
universities and Oxbridge. New is a | 3:56:32 | 3:56:37 | |
massively deprived area. Research
tells us that 13 out of 20 children | 3:56:37 | 3:56:44 | |
in Newham lived in poverty. It is
currently the second worst of all | 3:56:44 | 3:56:49 | |
local authorities in England for
social mobility. The fact that we | 3:56:49 | 3:56:53 | |
get young people doing well is a
testament to them and their teachers | 3:56:53 | 3:57:01 | |
and parents. But U Vic has had its
budget cut by £770 per student | 3:57:01 | 3:57:13 | |
including £200 per student from the
deprivation allocation. How on earth | 3:57:13 | 3:57:19 | |
can that be justified? I would be
grateful if the Minister on the | 3:57:19 | 3:57:26 | |
front bench could liaise with the
Department for Education on my | 3:57:26 | 3:57:30 | |
behalf to secure me and NewVic a
meeting about this so we can help | 3:57:30 | 3:57:34 | |
them continue to be a much-needed
engine of social mobility in mine | 3:57:34 | 3:57:40 | |
and my honourable friend's
communities. I got a nod! My second | 3:57:40 | 3:57:48 | |
issue concerns the mental health
condition called depersonalisation | 3:57:48 | 3:57:53 | |
disorder. At least one of my
constituents suffers from this and | 3:57:53 | 3:57:57 | |
she has asked me to share her story
with the house. Since she was 18 she | 3:57:57 | 3:58:02 | |
has lived for years in a continuous
state of detachment. The world and | 3:58:02 | 3:58:07 | |
her own life do not feel real pulls
up she lives in a dream, performing | 3:58:07 | 3:58:13 | |
actions on autopilot. Sometimes she
does not even recognise herself in | 3:58:13 | 3:58:18 | |
the mirror. It is terrifying. The
disorder is under researched, very | 3:58:18 | 3:58:25 | |
poorly understood and can take eight
to 12 years to get the right | 3:58:25 | 3:58:30 | |
diagnosis. Consequences of a missed
diagnosis can be dreadful because | 3:58:30 | 3:58:36 | |
anti-psychotic, and the anxiety or
antidepressant medications do not | 3:58:36 | 3:58:39 | |
help and they can make the condition
markedly worse. One sufferer, Sarah, | 3:58:39 | 3:58:49 | |
explained, "Relationships lose their
essential quality, you know you love | 3:58:49 | 3:58:53 | |
your family but you know it
academically rather than feeling it | 3:58:53 | 3:58:56 | |
in the normal way." I genuinely
would find it difficult to live if I | 3:58:56 | 3:59:02 | |
was living with that particular
disorder. With swift diagnosis and | 3:59:02 | 3:59:07 | |
specialist treatment, patients can
have a real hope of remission but | 3:59:07 | 3:59:12 | |
existing NHS provision is woefully
inadequate. There is only one | 3:59:12 | 3:59:16 | |
specialist unit based at the
Maudsley Hospital and many patients | 3:59:16 | 3:59:21 | |
wait years for funding to attend and
sometimes they get refused funding | 3:59:21 | 3:59:27 | |
and the service is only for adults,
even though the condition typically | 3:59:27 | 3:59:34 | |
begins in a person's early teens. We
really do need to look at that. | 3:59:34 | 3:59:39 | |
Again, I'm talking to the Minister
on the front bench and I'm asking | 3:59:39 | 3:59:44 | |
for a meeting with the Department of
Health to discuss it further and I | 3:59:44 | 3:59:47 | |
would be grateful if he would help
that request along its way. Finally, | 3:59:47 | 3:59:53 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker, fixed odds
betting machines. Newham, as we have | 3:59:53 | 4:00:00 | |
established today without any
contradiction, is a borough of high | 4:00:00 | 4:00:03 | |
deprivation. It has one of the
highest numbers of betting shops of | 4:00:03 | 4:00:08 | |
any borough with 81 in operation, 12
on one street alone. Newham council | 4:00:08 | 4:00:18 | |
estimates that £20 million of
residence money was lost to fixed | 4:00:18 | 4:00:24 | |
odds betting machines in just one
year. | 4:00:24 | 4:00:31 | |
I have called, as has my honourable
friend, for a reduction in the | 4:00:31 | 4:00:36 | |
maximum stake to £2, and I have
welcomed the government's | 4:00:36 | 4:00:40 | |
consultation on this issue, which
rightly suggests they £2 limit will | 4:00:40 | 4:00:44 | |
help stop problem gambling. A £2
limit would be great, if a belated | 4:00:44 | 4:00:52 | |
Christmas present to the children of
new. Finally, I would like to thank | 4:00:52 | 4:00:58 | |
the staff of the House for their
unfailing kindness, professionalism | 4:00:58 | 4:01:02 | |
and their service to all of us. I
won't be the only person in the | 4:01:02 | 4:01:07 | |
chamber today thinking of our Deputy
Speaker and sending him our love and | 4:01:07 | 4:01:11 | |
prayers. Also thinking of Jo Cox's
family, Brendan Cox and the | 4:01:11 | 4:01:19 | |
children, and the family of PC Keith
Palmer, as they face their first | 4:01:19 | 4:01:23 | |
Christmas without him, and we all
know that will be massively hard. | 4:01:23 | 4:01:28 | |
Finally, I wish to wish all of us
the happiest of Christmases and the | 4:01:28 | 4:01:32 | |
very best of New Year 's. Following
what the honourable lady has just | 4:01:32 | 4:01:39 | |
said, the chairman of ways and means
is very grateful for all the | 4:01:39 | 4:01:44 | |
messages that he has received.
Hundreds of members have sent very | 4:01:44 | 4:01:52 | |
kind messages and he has found that
a rate support at this sad and | 4:01:52 | 4:01:57 | |
tragic time for him, and I will pass
on to him, once again, the good | 4:01:57 | 4:02:02 | |
wishes of the whole House. Thank
you. I would like to associate | 4:02:02 | 4:02:09 | |
myself with the comments you have
made and those made by the | 4:02:09 | 4:02:13 | |
honourable member for West Ham. Mr
Speaker, what a fantastic | 4:02:13 | 4:02:21 | |
opportunity and innovation these
debates are, seven minutes to talk | 4:02:21 | 4:02:23 | |
about anything we would like. I am
surprised the benches are not | 4:02:23 | 4:02:28 | |
overflowing with colleagues. More
time for the rest of us. I would | 4:02:28 | 4:02:32 | |
like to say a few things by way of
thank you and then express a concern | 4:02:32 | 4:02:39 | |
and end on a positive point. Can I
thank him for his kind words but can | 4:02:39 | 4:02:42 | |
I also say that I think it is sad
not many people are here today. I | 4:02:42 | 4:02:46 | |
think it is because the information
we had was that it would be | 4:02:46 | 4:02:50 | |
massively oversubscribed. I would
like to go back to the tradition | 4:02:50 | 4:02:53 | |
where we had a proper adjournment
debate, where we could properly | 4:02:53 | 4:02:58 | |
explore the issues that are
important to our constituents, | 4:02:58 | 4:03:00 | |
without having to contain it within
a seven minute speech. I thank the | 4:03:00 | 4:03:09 | |
honourable lady for those comments,
and she makes a valid point that I | 4:03:09 | 4:03:12 | |
am sure others are listening to. I
thank my honourable friend for | 4:03:12 | 4:03:20 | |
giving way and I take the
representation made by my honourable | 4:03:20 | 4:03:24 | |
friend from across the other side of
the chamber. The backbench business | 4:03:24 | 4:03:29 | |
committee does allocate the time. It
was looked to be three hours for | 4:03:29 | 4:03:33 | |
this debate and because of
statements, the time was compressed. | 4:03:33 | 4:03:39 | |
However, I will take it as a
representation from the House when | 4:03:39 | 4:03:43 | |
the backbench business committee
look at the next recess adjournment | 4:03:43 | 4:03:46 | |
debate, to look for a full day's
adjournment debate. Happy to | 4:03:46 | 4:03:53 | |
facilitate that discussion! Mr
Speaker, I would like to say thank | 4:03:53 | 4:03:58 | |
you to you and your attire team and
everybody who looks after us in this | 4:03:58 | 4:04:03 | |
place, from the security, the
cleaners, everybody in hospitality, | 4:04:03 | 4:04:08 | |
everybody does a very good job and
they do not always get the praise | 4:04:08 | 4:04:12 | |
they deserve, so thank you to them.
Thank you to my family, who go | 4:04:12 | 4:04:17 | |
through quite an ordeal living with
me, and particularly the lifestyle | 4:04:17 | 4:04:20 | |
we lead. And thank you to my
constituents for re-electing me. I | 4:04:20 | 4:04:26 | |
am sure this is the same on the half
of all members of this place, we are | 4:04:26 | 4:04:31 | |
very grateful for those who voted
for us but we are the | 4:04:31 | 4:04:35 | |
representatives also of those who
did not vote for us. Across both | 4:04:35 | 4:04:40 | |
sides of the House, we take that
seriously and do our best to | 4:04:40 | 4:04:44 | |
represent the breadth of opinion,
which is sometimes overlooked. I | 4:04:44 | 4:04:48 | |
would like to say thank you to three
people who have inspired me this | 4:04:48 | 4:04:51 | |
year and I'm proud to have got know
them. Tracy Heming runs the freedom | 4:04:51 | 4:04:56 | |
day care centre and disco in my home
village. What an inspiration she is. | 4:04:56 | 4:05:02 | |
She had an idea to set up an event
for disabled children and those with | 4:05:02 | 4:05:08 | |
mental health challenges, and she
has done the most fantastic job. I | 4:05:08 | 4:05:12 | |
have visited her several times and
she deserves credit. Diane Bennett | 4:05:12 | 4:05:18 | |
runs caring hands in the Vale, and
runs a local food bank, another | 4:05:18 | 4:05:23 | |
inspirational lady I have got to
know very well. And up in Droitwich, | 4:05:23 | 4:05:30 | |
Patrick Davis, who is doing a great
job with reinvigorating the salt | 4:05:30 | 4:05:35 | |
production and the salt association
with Droitwich. I am pleased they | 4:05:35 | 4:05:39 | |
are doing a fantastic job. I am
honoured to live in an area where | 4:05:39 | 4:05:46 | |
community engagement and involvement
is at the heart of what people do. | 4:05:46 | 4:05:49 | |
They are busy with jobs and families
but the volunteering is incredible. | 4:05:49 | 4:05:53 | |
I have never known anywhere with
that degree of dedication, so it is | 4:05:53 | 4:05:59 | |
an honour to be associated with so
many of them. The point I would like | 4:05:59 | 4:06:05 | |
to raise is something we are not
seeing in the chamber today. That is | 4:06:05 | 4:06:11 | |
intolerance in modern British
politics. I am increasingly | 4:06:11 | 4:06:15 | |
concerned about the intolerance, the
abuse and intimidation happening in | 4:06:15 | 4:06:18 | |
British politics. To be honest, at
the extreme ends of both the far | 4:06:18 | 4:06:24 | |
right and the far left. It is not
representative or reflective of the | 4:06:24 | 4:06:29 | |
day-to-day activity in this place,
where we generally get along. We | 4:06:29 | 4:06:34 | |
have banter, we disagree, sometimes
vehemently, but we also know that | 4:06:34 | 4:06:38 | |
whilst we may have very strongly
held opinions that does not | 4:06:38 | 4:06:42 | |
necessarily mean we are right. That
self-awareness of realising that | 4:06:42 | 4:06:47 | |
sometimes we can be persuaded and
sometimes the opposition can be | 4:06:47 | 4:06:50 | |
right, and it is valid and fair to
look at the same data and have | 4:06:50 | 4:06:54 | |
different views and opinions as to
policies coming out of that is very | 4:06:54 | 4:06:57 | |
useful. We have those debates and
discussions all the time. | 4:06:57 | 4:07:03 | |
Unfortunately, the public do not
always see that, and particularly | 4:07:03 | 4:07:07 | |
online we are now seeing an era of
really disheartening abuse, vitriol | 4:07:07 | 4:07:11 | |
and hatred that does not exist in
this place. But it is the | 4:07:11 | 4:07:17 | |
responsibility of us to make sure we
say that is not acceptable in | 4:07:17 | 4:07:20 | |
British politics. If it is
associated with any of us, in any | 4:07:20 | 4:07:26 | |
way, shape or form, whether it is
someone in your name, using a hash | 4:07:26 | 4:07:31 | |
-- your hashtag or Twitter account
to make vile comments, we must stand | 4:07:31 | 4:07:35 | |
up and say, not in mine aim, I
distance myself from those, do not | 4:07:35 | 4:07:40 | |
want to be associated with those
comments, and be active. Yes, social | 4:07:40 | 4:07:45 | |
media companies have a lot to answer
for and we do, as members of | 4:07:45 | 4:07:49 | |
Parliament and those people making
the vile comments in the first | 4:07:49 | 4:07:53 | |
place, but we have to stand up and
be counted. I thank the honourable | 4:07:53 | 4:07:59 | |
member for giving way. What I would
say is actually don't lose hope on | 4:07:59 | 4:08:04 | |
this one. He is quite right. I
endorse that, and what we have seen | 4:08:04 | 4:08:09 | |
in recent days and weeks has been
extremely unpleasant. However, north | 4:08:09 | 4:08:14 | |
of the border we knew of a situation
three years ago when it was very bad | 4:08:14 | 4:08:18 | |
on both sides of the debate about
the independence referendum for | 4:08:18 | 4:08:22 | |
Scotland. Since then, things have
improved. We have worked at it, and | 4:08:22 | 4:08:28 | |
you can make progress. And I do have
hope, but we have a responsibility | 4:08:28 | 4:08:33 | |
to try and lead. It is unfortunate.
We all get this, but when people | 4:08:33 | 4:08:39 | |
insinuated about your motivations,
we disagree on policy, but when they | 4:08:39 | 4:08:45 | |
insinuate about your motivations,
and sometimes it is disheartening | 4:08:45 | 4:08:47 | |
and rude to hear people insinuated
that because I am a Tory I wake up | 4:08:47 | 4:08:52 | |
in the morning wanting to hurt
poorer disabled people. That is so | 4:08:52 | 4:08:57 | |
far from the reality it is offensive
and wrong. If anyone really believes | 4:08:57 | 4:09:02 | |
that in a public debate sphere, I
feel sorry for them. What kind of | 4:09:02 | 4:09:07 | |
mentality must you have that you
believe in the absolute worst of | 4:09:07 | 4:09:11 | |
people you are dealing with on a
day-to-day basis in your workplace? | 4:09:11 | 4:09:16 | |
So I think we need to call that out.
But the main worry is not this place | 4:09:16 | 4:09:21 | |
but what is happening online. We
need to focus on that and work much | 4:09:21 | 4:09:27 | |
closer together. There is
cross-party consensus on that. More | 4:09:27 | 4:09:32 | |
positively, and I said I would end
on some more positive features, I am | 4:09:32 | 4:09:38 | |
pleased and proud that I am a member
of Parliament for the Conservative | 4:09:38 | 4:09:42 | |
Party. Whilst we do not get
everything right, we do listen and | 4:09:42 | 4:09:47 | |
we do make changes when necessary. I
am proud that, for example, we have | 4:09:47 | 4:09:55 | |
recognised there were mistakes made
in universal credit. We looked at | 4:09:55 | 4:09:58 | |
the data, listened to people,
listened to constituents and other | 4:09:58 | 4:10:02 | |
members in the chamber and we
amended policy. That was right and I | 4:10:02 | 4:10:06 | |
am glad we did that. But we have got
a lotta right. I am glad that we are | 4:10:06 | 4:10:11 | |
going into the Christmas period
where we have got the highest | 4:10:11 | 4:10:15 | |
spending ever on the NHS, more
operations than ever, highest | 4:10:15 | 4:10:19 | |
spending on pensions and pensioners
than ever before, more children in | 4:10:19 | 4:10:24 | |
good and outstanding schools than
ever in this nation's history, and | 4:10:24 | 4:10:29 | |
more people than ever before with a
paycheque going home every week with | 4:10:29 | 4:10:33 | |
the decency and honour of earning
money, and unemployment at a record | 4:10:33 | 4:10:37 | |
low for 45 years. It has been a
difficult, challenging year, but it | 4:10:37 | 4:10:42 | |
is not all bad. Let's look at some
of the positive things. I will play | 4:10:42 | 4:10:46 | |
my part of the two new cross-party
co-operation on all the things we | 4:10:46 | 4:10:51 | |
care about an hour constituents care
about, and I look forward to doing | 4:10:51 | 4:10:56 | |
that. In the meantime, happy
Christmas and happy new year to | 4:10:56 | 4:10:59 | |
everybody. Merry Christmas to you
and to all of the Deputy speakers | 4:10:59 | 4:11:10 | |
and your panel of chairs, and all
the staff of this house. Can I give | 4:11:10 | 4:11:18 | |
special Best wishes to my friend the
chairman of ways and Means, who I | 4:11:18 | 4:11:23 | |
know how hard it is for him at this
time? I want to concentrate on one | 4:11:23 | 4:11:30 | |
area, and in doing so I want to wish
a Merry Christmas to all British | 4:11:30 | 4:11:37 | |
people in this country, and the 5
million British people living in | 4:11:37 | 4:11:41 | |
other countries, including 1.2
million in the European Union. And I | 4:11:41 | 4:11:47 | |
do so because in the last few years,
we have not even the views and the | 4:11:47 | 4:11:54 | |
representative nurse of those people
the weight they deserve. In 2014, | 4:11:54 | 4:12:04 | |
the then chairman of the
Conservative Party, in September, | 4:12:04 | 4:12:12 | |
pledged to end the 15- year rule for
British people living overseas being | 4:12:12 | 4:12:19 | |
eligible to vote in our elections.
That commitment was made very | 4:12:19 | 4:12:25 | |
firmly. He said, being a British
citizen is for life. It gives you | 4:12:25 | 4:12:32 | |
the lifelong right to be protected
by our military and Foreign Office, | 4:12:32 | 4:12:37 | |
and to travel on a British passport.
We believe it should also give you | 4:12:37 | 4:12:42 | |
the lifelong right to a vote.
The manifesto on which the | 4:12:42 | 4:12:51 | |
Conservative Party and David Cameron
won the election in 2015 included | 4:12:51 | 4:12:54 | |
that pledge. Subsequently, the
government produced a consultative | 4:12:54 | 4:13:09 | |
document and a commitment to bring
forward a votes for life Bill was | 4:13:09 | 4:13:15 | |
announced in the Queen 's speech on
the 27th of May, 2015. That bill did | 4:13:15 | 4:13:24 | |
not materialise subsequently. But in
October 2016, a policy statement was | 4:13:24 | 4:13:33 | |
published. Again, it set out how
this removal of the 15- year rule | 4:13:33 | 4:13:40 | |
would come about. Those people who
were British citizens living in | 4:13:40 | 4:13:49 | |
Spain, Italy, France, Germany,
Portugal, Estonia, Lithuania, | 4:13:49 | 4:13:53 | |
wherever else in the European Union,
who had been there longer than 15 | 4:13:53 | 4:13:59 | |
years, were not eligible to vote in
the referendum. And as a result, | 4:13:59 | 4:14:06 | |
although their rights had been more
affected than any other British | 4:14:06 | 4:14:14 | |
citizens by the decision taken in
2016, they had no say on it if they | 4:14:14 | 4:14:21 | |
had lived in those countries more
than 15 years. And in the | 4:14:21 | 4:14:26 | |
negotiations the government is
coming forward with in the European | 4:14:26 | 4:14:30 | |
Union at this moment, it is notable
that although we now seem to have | 4:14:30 | 4:14:37 | |
rights for EU citizens in this
country to be protected, there will | 4:14:37 | 4:14:43 | |
be inferior rights for British
citizens living in other EU | 4:14:43 | 4:14:47 | |
countries, because those rights will
only exist in the countries where | 4:14:47 | 4:14:51 | |
they are currently resident. They
will not be transferable, because | 4:14:51 | 4:14:55 | |
they will move the right to freedom
of movement within other EU | 4:14:55 | 4:14:58 | |
countries. And that is an important
point. Whereas EU citizens in the UK | 4:14:58 | 4:15:04 | |
can move back and go to any other EU
country, British citizens in the | 4:15:04 | 4:15:10 | |
European Union, as things stand,
will only be able to reside in that | 4:15:10 | 4:15:14 | |
particular country and not have the
right to free movement elsewhere in | 4:15:14 | 4:15:17 | |
the EU. That needs to be looked at.
I wish to declare that I am the | 4:15:17 | 4:15:25 | |
honorary President of Labour
international, at least until | 4:15:25 | 4:15:31 | |
Momentum get rid of me. I am not
joking. It has been suggested. | 4:15:31 | 4:15:40 | |
I am speaking because I am aware of
the concerns of so many people not | 4:15:40 | 4:15:45 | |
just in the Labour Party but also
the Conservatives internationally | 4:15:45 | 4:15:49 | |
and elsewhere and clearly there was
an excuse that we had a general | 4:15:49 | 4:15:54 | |
election this year. And therefore
the bill that might have come | 4:15:54 | 4:16:00 | |
through from the 2015 election has
not been produced. I have been | 4:16:00 | 4:16:04 | |
pursuing the matter with some
questions and I have put down some | 4:16:04 | 4:16:12 | |
questions in November asking the
Minister for the Cabinet Office what | 4:16:12 | 4:16:15 | |
plans the government has to extend
voting rights of UK citizens who are | 4:16:15 | 4:16:20 | |
resident overseas in UK elections
and referendums. And to ask if he | 4:16:20 | 4:16:25 | |
will bring forward legislative
proposals to guarantee votes for | 4:16:25 | 4:16:29 | |
life in UK elections and referendums
for all UK citizens living abroad. | 4:16:29 | 4:16:34 | |
The answers I got was to refer me to
an answer given to the honourable | 4:16:34 | 4:16:38 | |
member for Halifax on the 7th of
September. And the answer the | 4:16:38 | 4:16:43 | |
honourable member for Halifax got
from a question asked on the 4th of | 4:16:43 | 4:16:53 | |
September was, as outlined in our
manifesto the government is | 4:16:53 | 4:16:57 | |
committed to legislating to scrap
the 15 year rule and will do so in | 4:16:57 | 4:17:02 | |
time for the next scheduled
parliamentary general election in | 4:17:02 | 4:17:05 | |
2022. That is not good enough. They
were working on the schedule for | 4:17:05 | 4:17:14 | |
2020 and an early general election
meant that people could not have a | 4:17:14 | 4:17:17 | |
vote in that election. There is
absolutely no guarantee in the | 4:17:17 | 4:17:21 | |
current political climate that the
next general election will be in | 4:17:21 | 4:17:28 | |
2022. It could be before then and so
I urge ministers, and this is not a | 4:17:28 | 4:17:34 | |
partisan point, there will be people
who disagree with extending the | 4:17:34 | 4:17:38 | |
democratic right to all British
people living overseas, but in the | 4:17:38 | 4:17:46 | |
modern age, with digital systems of
voting or checking or registration, | 4:17:46 | 4:17:52 | |
we need to actually modernise and
extend the democracy to all those | 4:17:52 | 4:17:57 | |
British people, particularly given
that we are bringing about | 4:17:57 | 4:18:00 | |
significant change not just in this
country but all over the world. | 4:18:00 | 4:18:06 | |
Thank you very much. It is an honour
to follow the member from Ilford | 4:18:06 | 4:18:16 | |
South and I will come onto the point
that he was making a bit later in my | 4:18:16 | 4:18:22 | |
remarks. I would also like to offer
and extend to all those working on | 4:18:22 | 4:18:28 | |
our behalf over Christmas and the
New Year weather in the private | 4:18:28 | 4:18:31 | |
sector or in public services my
grateful thanks because they give up | 4:18:31 | 4:18:37 | |
their family time on our behalf. In
my constituency of stuff that I | 4:18:37 | 4:18:41 | |
particularly like to think of the
workers at General Electric who are | 4:18:41 | 4:18:46 | |
facing an uncertain future with the
consultation going on over the loss | 4:18:46 | 4:18:51 | |
of 500 jobs and assure them of my
commitment to see that if there are | 4:18:51 | 4:18:55 | |
other opportunities locally or
regionally, they should be made | 4:18:55 | 4:18:59 | |
aware of them and all support
possible given. I would like to | 4:18:59 | 4:19:04 | |
tackle three subjects. The first is
health and social care. I have | 4:19:04 | 4:19:11 | |
spoken often on this subject in the
past, particularly around Stafford | 4:19:11 | 4:19:15 | |
Hospital and may I first say how
great it is to be able to say that | 4:19:15 | 4:19:20 | |
the care at County Hospital, the
former Stafford Hospital, has | 4:19:20 | 4:19:25 | |
improved tremendously in the past
few years and paid tribute to the | 4:19:25 | 4:19:28 | |
workers there who have gone through
a very difficult time both at the | 4:19:28 | 4:19:34 | |
time of the Francis public inquiry
and the trust special | 4:19:34 | 4:19:40 | |
administration, the only trust
special administration under the | 4:19:40 | 4:19:43 | |
social care act 2012. I rise quickly
to pay great credit to my honourable | 4:19:43 | 4:19:51 | |
friend. He has worked tirelessly to
sort out this hospital and he has | 4:19:51 | 4:19:57 | |
been a great advocate of getting it
fixed. I'm most grateful and I think | 4:19:57 | 4:20:04 | |
he perhaps exaggerates my own part.
It has been the workforce who have | 4:20:04 | 4:20:08 | |
done it but I take his thanks on the
half of all those in County Hospital | 4:20:08 | 4:20:13 | |
and in Stafford who have fought for
it. I want to talk about the Green | 4:20:13 | 4:20:17 | |
paper that is coming up on social
care and I will extend my remarks to | 4:20:17 | 4:20:22 | |
health and social because it is a
really important opportunity for us | 4:20:22 | 4:20:29 | |
to change things for health and
social care for the better and for | 4:20:29 | 4:20:33 | |
the long-term. But it needs
cross-party working. The area of | 4:20:33 | 4:20:38 | |
social care and health has been
blighted too often by party | 4:20:38 | 4:20:43 | |
infighting and between parties. It
also need an integrated approach. I | 4:20:43 | 4:20:50 | |
would start off by saying that
actually if you look at people's | 4:20:50 | 4:20:54 | |
opinion in Britain that access to
good health care, we'd score highly | 4:20:54 | 4:20:59 | |
internationally. In a survey done
not long ago, 35% of people in the | 4:20:59 | 4:21:05 | |
US said they did not have good
access to good quality health care. | 4:21:05 | 4:21:09 | |
In France it was 18%, Germany it was
15% and in the UK it was only 4% and | 4:21:09 | 4:21:16 | |
that is the glory of our National
Health Service, that it gives | 4:21:16 | 4:21:20 | |
people, by and large, access to
high-quality health care whatever | 4:21:20 | 4:21:22 | |
their income and wherever they live
in the UK. But there is also a | 4:21:22 | 4:21:29 | |
general acceptance that more money
is required. I will not go into the | 4:21:29 | 4:21:34 | |
detailed figures as there is not the
time but something between one and | 4:21:34 | 4:21:39 | |
2% of GDP more needs to be spent on
health and social get so the | 4:21:39 | 4:21:42 | |
question is, and it is a question
for the Green paper next year and | 4:21:42 | 4:21:46 | |
our contributions to it, how is that
money to be raised? I have always | 4:21:46 | 4:21:51 | |
said that I believe we need a ring
fenced health and social get levy on | 4:21:51 | 4:21:58 | |
top of the budgeted expenditure that
we have at the moment for health and | 4:21:58 | 4:22:04 | |
social, it needs to be a broad-based
levy and income -based. So it is | 4:22:04 | 4:22:10 | |
fair across the country and across
the population. And I believe that | 4:22:10 | 4:22:14 | |
will help us, it will not be
everything we need to do, but it | 4:22:14 | 4:22:19 | |
will ensure that the
10-20,000,000,000 additional | 4:22:19 | 4:22:26 | |
resources we need to put into the
health and social care system on top | 4:22:26 | 4:22:29 | |
of already what we spend will be
available and I think it will be | 4:22:29 | 4:22:34 | |
accepted by the general population.
They note that if the money is ring | 4:22:34 | 4:22:39 | |
fenced and it is going into health
and social that it will be spent on | 4:22:39 | 4:22:43 | |
things that they really care about
and need. And let's not forget the | 4:22:43 | 4:22:47 | |
NHS is one of the biggest sources of
cohesion in the country, something | 4:22:47 | 4:22:52 | |
we all rely on. The second area I
want to touch on briefly is the | 4:22:52 | 4:22:57 | |
European Union negotiations which
are incredibly important to all of | 4:22:57 | 4:23:02 | |
us. The Prime Minister has said she
wants the best possible deal and I | 4:23:02 | 4:23:07 | |
absolutely support her in this. A
unique deal, a long-term deal, but | 4:23:07 | 4:23:12 | |
the best possible for our jobs, tax
revenues and also to bring back | 4:23:12 | 4:23:17 | |
control of various areas into this
country. It must include goods and | 4:23:17 | 4:23:23 | |
services, not just goods. It must be
frictionless, it must fully respect | 4:23:23 | 4:23:28 | |
the Belfast agreement, respect the
people of Gibraltar, it must cover | 4:23:28 | 4:23:33 | |
security, aviation, data and many
other areas including agreements | 4:23:33 | 4:23:38 | |
with other countries of which there
are dozens. There has been | 4:23:38 | 4:23:43 | |
discussion about whether we should
be closer to Norway, Canada, plus, | 4:23:43 | 4:23:49 | |
plus, plus. I would simply make the
observation that geographically, and | 4:23:49 | 4:23:54 | |
I would say in spirit, we are
possibly closer to Norway than | 4:23:54 | 4:23:58 | |
Canada when it comes to this type of
agreement and I would urge the | 4:23:58 | 4:24:02 | |
government to look at that very
closely. I would also suggest we | 4:24:02 | 4:24:09 | |
look at the European free trade
Association. It is not perfect and | 4:24:09 | 4:24:12 | |
it might not be something for the
near-term but I believe in the | 4:24:12 | 4:24:16 | |
medium term we cannot stand just on
our own. We need to work together | 4:24:16 | 4:24:19 | |
with other like-minded nations of
which Iceland, Norway, Switzerland, | 4:24:19 | 4:24:26 | |
Lichtenstein and maybe others in the
future are some. Because when it | 4:24:26 | 4:24:30 | |
comes to negotiating agreements and
working together on trade it is | 4:24:30 | 4:24:35 | |
better to be in a number of
countries rather than on our own. | 4:24:35 | 4:24:38 | |
The final point I would make, again
in this place, is that we need to | 4:24:38 | 4:24:44 | |
consider the idea of associate
European citizenship on a voluntary | 4:24:44 | 4:24:49 | |
basis for all those citizens of the
UK who want to retain very strong | 4:24:49 | 4:24:52 | |
and close allegiance is to our
friends and neighbours in the EU. It | 4:24:52 | 4:24:56 | |
has been raised as a possibility by
Guy Verhofstadt in the European | 4:24:56 | 4:25:02 | |
Parliament and others so let's take
this into consideration in the | 4:25:02 | 4:25:09 | |
negotiations. Mr Speaker, finally
but in some ways most important of | 4:25:09 | 4:25:13 | |
all, I want to touch on humanitarian
work. We know that across the world | 4:25:13 | 4:25:17 | |
there are more people who are
refugees at the moment than at any | 4:25:17 | 4:25:21 | |
time since possibly the end of the
Second World War, whether it is | 4:25:21 | 4:25:25 | |
Syria, Yemen, South Sudan,
Democratic Republic of Congo and not | 4:25:25 | 4:25:29 | |
Burundi, Burma, there are possibly
up to 50 million and that does not | 4:25:29 | 4:25:36 | |
count the people suffering within
their own countries. I welcome the | 4:25:36 | 4:25:39 | |
recent news about Yemen and the fact
that the port there has been opened | 4:25:39 | 4:25:46 | |
up for 30 days for humanitarian and
relief supplies and I'd paid tribute | 4:25:46 | 4:25:50 | |
to the government for their work on
that but we must keep an eagle eyed | 4:25:50 | 4:25:54 | |
over this recess on that. I would
also point out the Democratic | 4:25:54 | 4:26:00 | |
Republic of Congo. 1.7 million
people there have had to flee their | 4:26:00 | 4:26:05 | |
homes this year, more than any other
country in the world and yet it | 4:26:05 | 4:26:09 | |
hardly receives a mention in the
news sadly and even in this place. 4 | 4:26:09 | 4:26:14 | |
million people have been displaced,
7 million are struggling to feed | 4:26:14 | 4:26:18 | |
themselves. I think it is absolutely
vital that in 2018 the UK maintains | 4:26:18 | 4:26:23 | |
the work he's doing all over the
world on humanitarian affairs and | 4:26:23 | 4:26:28 | |
which we lead in some instances --
the work it's doing. And on that I | 4:26:28 | 4:26:33 | |
wish you a very happy Christmas. | 4:26:33 | 4:26:35 | |
I'm going to start by sounding a bit
bar humbug I'm afraid I will save | 4:26:36 | 4:26:43 | |
Mike felicitations for the end but
it is an important subject and one I | 4:26:43 | 4:26:46 | |
wish to raise regarding the
delegated Legislation committee I | 4:26:46 | 4:26:51 | |
was in on Tuesday that was
considering the new date for | 4:26:51 | 4:26:55 | |
donations to the Northern Ireland
parties and asking for it to be | 4:26:55 | 4:27:00 | |
treated in the same way as donations
to other parties. That has been a | 4:27:00 | 4:27:04 | |
very long issue with the first
suggested date being a decade ago | 4:27:04 | 4:27:10 | |
and successive ministers I'm afraid
taking the issue down the road over | 4:27:10 | 4:27:15 | |
the years. The revelations about the
large donation to the DUP for Brexit | 4:27:15 | 4:27:20 | |
campaigning made from Scotland
through Northern Ireland, presumably | 4:27:20 | 4:27:23 | |
in order to avoid the normal
reporting restrictions, forced the | 4:27:23 | 4:27:27 | |
hand of the current government and
the secondary legislation we were | 4:27:27 | 4:27:30 | |
considering. That's donation was
£435,000 on the constitutional | 4:27:30 | 4:27:39 | |
research Council, an organisation
based in Scotland that none of us in | 4:27:39 | 4:27:42 | |
Scottish politics had heard before
although I note it also has links to | 4:27:42 | 4:27:48 | |
the parliamentary undersecretary in
the Department for exiting the | 4:27:48 | 4:27:50 | |
European Union. I believe he
received some thousands of pounds on | 4:27:50 | 4:27:54 | |
behalf of the European research
group, the Conservatives extreme | 4:27:54 | 4:27:59 | |
Brexit wing. On Tuesday the Minister
told the committee she had consulted | 4:27:59 | 4:28:06 | |
the Electoral Commission in Northern
Ireland as she was obliged to and | 4:28:06 | 4:28:10 | |
gave the impression that the
commission was in agreement with the | 4:28:10 | 4:28:13 | |
government on the date of
commencement. She said, I hope the | 4:28:13 | 4:28:17 | |
committee has found that summary of
the provisions helpful as honourable | 4:28:17 | 4:28:21 | |
members know the Electoral
Commission will be responsible for | 4:28:21 | 4:28:24 | |
inventing the arrangements set out
in the draft order. The government | 4:28:24 | 4:28:28 | |
have fulfilled our statutory
obligation to consult the commission | 4:28:28 | 4:28:31 | |
about the draft order, I place on
record my thanks to the commission | 4:28:31 | 4:28:34 | |
and its staff for their close
cooperation and constructive input | 4:28:34 | 4:28:37 | |
into the drafting process. My office
contacted the commission yesterday | 4:28:37 | 4:28:43 | |
and was told that the commission
remains of the opinion that the | 4:28:43 | 4:28:46 | |
start date for open reporting should
be generally the first 2014 rather | 4:28:46 | 4:28:51 | |
than the new date of July the 1st of
this year. That is important because | 4:28:51 | 4:28:55 | |
the date that the commission still
wants to be the appropriate date is | 4:28:55 | 4:28:59 | |
the date that was in legislation
passed by this Parliament. That is | 4:28:59 | 4:29:04 | |
legislation that was intended to
normalise the reporting of donations | 4:29:04 | 4:29:07 | |
and loans to Northern Irish parties
to make it difficult to channel | 4:29:07 | 4:29:11 | |
money secretly into politics. We are
all well aware of the need for | 4:29:11 | 4:29:17 | |
transparency in politics, the need
to avoid corruption and to be seen | 4:29:17 | 4:29:20 | |
to be avoiding corruption. We trust
the Electoral Commission to do its | 4:29:20 | 4:29:25 | |
job and ensure that the rules are
followed. They are the expert in | 4:29:25 | 4:29:29 | |
this field and while I'm aware
experts are not necessarily in | 4:29:29 | 4:29:33 | |
favour in some parts of this house,
we can surely agree that we can take | 4:29:33 | 4:29:37 | |
the advice of the Electoral
Commission on matters pertaining to | 4:29:37 | 4:29:41 | |
donations and loans to political
parties. It is unfortunate that the | 4:29:41 | 4:29:45 | |
minister gave the impression on
Tuesday that she had the agreement | 4:29:45 | 4:29:48 | |
of the commission when it was clear
she did not and does not and I hope | 4:29:48 | 4:29:51 | |
she will take the opportunity to
clarify the situation for the house | 4:29:51 | 4:29:55 | |
and for the record. Meanwhile since
it is clear the Electoral Commission | 4:29:55 | 4:29:59 | |
remains opposed to the new data
presented in the secondary | 4:29:59 | 4:30:03 | |
legislation and these regulations
have not yet been presented on the | 4:30:03 | 4:30:05 | |
floor of the house for approval, I
wonder if the minister might | 4:30:05 | 4:30:10 | |
reconsider her position. Deferring
the introduction of these | 4:30:10 | 4:30:12 | |
regulations and to the government
has had sufficient time to properly | 4:30:12 | 4:30:17 | |
consult on the most appropriate date
for the proper and full reporting of | 4:30:17 | 4:30:20 | |
donations and loans in Northern
Ireland to start. That reporting was | 4:30:20 | 4:30:24 | |
originally supposed to start from
2007 and a government consultation | 4:30:24 | 4:30:29 | |
in 2010 showed that more than three
quarters of respondents in Northern | 4:30:29 | 4:30:33 | |
Ireland wanted that to go ahead. I'm
afraid it was fudged, deferred and | 4:30:33 | 4:30:38 | |
put back on the shelf. Eventually
new legislation, the Northern | 4:30:38 | 4:30:45 | |
Ireland miscellaneous provisions act
2014 set a new date of January the | 4:30:45 | 4:30:49 | |
1st 2014. I believe we should see
that they'd honoured. I hope that | 4:30:49 | 4:30:54 | |
the minister in ten is seeking to
address the wrong but impression | 4:30:54 | 4:30:57 | |
given the Electoral Commission was
in agreement with the new date and | 4:30:57 | 4:31:02 | |
that she withdraws the revelations
presented and takes time to | 4:31:02 | 4:31:06 | |
undertake a proper and full
consultation on them so we get a | 4:31:06 | 4:31:09 | |
date that satisfies the intent
behind the legislation we must avoid | 4:31:09 | 4:31:15 | |
corruption and we must avoid any
danger of leaving the impression | 4:31:15 | 4:31:19 | |
that may be something to hide. I
think it is vital we have a debate | 4:31:19 | 4:31:23 | |
on this issue scheduled in the house
in the New Year. | 4:31:23 | 4:31:30 | |
On that rather sombre note, I would
like to wish everyone in the house, | 4:31:30 | 4:31:35 | |
all of the officers, yourself, the
deputy speakers, who have been so | 4:31:35 | 4:31:39 | |
helpful to all of us throughout the
year, and I would really like to say | 4:31:39 | 4:31:48 | |
Merry Christmas and happy new year.
I particularly want to send my | 4:31:48 | 4:31:52 | |
thoughts and best wishes to the
chairman of ways and Means, because | 4:31:52 | 4:31:57 | |
I am fond of the gentleman, and I
was very sad to hear of his | 4:31:57 | 4:32:02 | |
difficulties at this time, and I
wish him and his family all the | 4:32:02 | 4:32:04 | |
best. A very experienced member of
parliament said to me recently that | 4:32:04 | 4:32:14 | |
MP behind your name does not just
mean member of Parliament, but it | 4:32:14 | 4:32:20 | |
means "Must persevere". The reason I
wanted to speak is because I am | 4:32:20 | 4:32:24 | |
going to talk to the House again
about the contaminated blood | 4:32:24 | 4:32:29 | |
scandal, and I'm going to persevere
with the fact that in my view, | 4:32:29 | 4:32:34 | |
justice will aid is justice denied.
Of course, I must say it was great | 4:32:34 | 4:32:41 | |
news in the summer on July 11, when
the government announced that they | 4:32:41 | 4:32:47 | |
would have an enquiry into what had
happened in the contaminated blood | 4:32:47 | 4:32:52 | |
scandal. The biggest treatment
disaster in the history of the NHS. | 4:32:52 | 4:32:58 | |
We know already at least 2400 people
have died, and many more as well. | 4:32:58 | 4:33:04 | |
And we also know that people today
are still living with the effects of | 4:33:04 | 4:33:11 | |
HIV and with hepatitis C and with
other viruses which they got through | 4:33:11 | 4:33:17 | |
contaminated blood products. I want
to put on record again my personal | 4:33:17 | 4:33:25 | |
thanks for the decision of the Prime
Minister to hold that public | 4:33:25 | 4:33:29 | |
enquiry. That was the 11th of July.
We are now on the 21st of December, | 4:33:29 | 4:33:36 | |
the same year. And, sadly, we do not
have that public enquiry | 4:33:36 | 4:33:42 | |
established. We don't have the name
of a chair. We don't even have draft | 4:33:42 | 4:33:49 | |
terms of reference for people to be
consulted on. And the reason we are | 4:33:49 | 4:33:56 | |
in this pickle is because,
unfortunately, with all good | 4:33:56 | 4:34:01 | |
intentions with that announcement in
July, the government held on to the | 4:34:01 | 4:34:06 | |
fact that the Department of Health
was the department that had to lead | 4:34:06 | 4:34:10 | |
on the establishment of that enquiry
for far too long. And despite | 4:34:10 | 4:34:17 | |
unanimity in the community of those
affected that the Department of | 4:34:17 | 4:34:21 | |
Health, as a party implicated in the
scandal, should not have anything to | 4:34:21 | 4:34:25 | |
do with this public enquiry, it took
until November three for the | 4:34:25 | 4:34:30 | |
government to say it would be moved
to the Cabinet Office. We welcome | 4:34:30 | 4:34:34 | |
that, and it is positive, but it
took far too long. We had to get the | 4:34:34 | 4:34:39 | |
involvement of the former Bishop of
Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, to | 4:34:39 | 4:34:43 | |
help get the message across to
government that the Department of | 4:34:43 | 4:34:46 | |
Health was not an appropriate body
to lead on this. Many people did not | 4:34:46 | 4:34:51 | |
want to get involved in the
consultation that was happening | 4:34:51 | 4:34:55 | |
because the Department of Health
were at the centre of it. On the 3rd | 4:34:55 | 4:35:00 | |
of November, we know the Cabinet
Office took control of this enquiry, | 4:35:00 | 4:35:04 | |
and we welcome that. They said there
would be an update before Christmas | 4:35:04 | 4:35:10 | |
about what would happen next and we
were hopeful we would have a chair | 4:35:10 | 4:35:14 | |
announced by today. What I find a
little galling is the fact that we | 4:35:14 | 4:35:20 | |
are on the very last day of this
term before we rise for Christmas, | 4:35:20 | 4:35:25 | |
and although we have a written
ministerial statement which was on | 4:35:25 | 4:35:29 | |
the order paper when I looked at
8:30am today, it has taken until | 4:35:29 | 4:35:35 | |
2:13pm to get that statement to
Parliament for us to see exactly | 4:35:35 | 4:35:40 | |
what the government are proposing.
The government have now said they | 4:35:40 | 4:35:45 | |
will have a judge- led enquiry, and
I understand from the people who did | 4:35:45 | 4:35:50 | |
engage with the consultation earlier
this year that was the wish of the | 4:35:50 | 4:35:56 | |
overwhelming number of people, so I
think that is positive. But in the | 4:35:56 | 4:36:02 | |
statement today there is no
indication about when we will get | 4:36:02 | 4:36:04 | |
the name of a judge. What concerns
me is, as I started by saying, we | 4:36:04 | 4:36:10 | |
have people living with HIV,
hepatitis C and other conditions | 4:36:10 | 4:36:13 | |
today. We have people today who are
dying because of what happened to | 4:36:13 | 4:36:19 | |
them, and we are now five and a half
months on from the initial, very | 4:36:19 | 4:36:24 | |
positive, announcement. But we still
can't actually see the start of this | 4:36:24 | 4:36:28 | |
public enquiry. So I would ask if
the Minister might enlighten us | 4:36:28 | 4:36:33 | |
further, in his comments at the end,
as to when we might have that name | 4:36:33 | 4:36:37 | |
announced in the New Year. I also
wanted to say that it seems to me | 4:36:37 | 4:36:42 | |
absolutely essential, in light of
what has happened with Grenfell | 4:36:42 | 4:36:46 | |
recently, where we have had a judge
appointed and had the community | 4:36:46 | 4:36:50 | |
raising concerns about not feeling
part of that enquiry, that whoever | 4:36:50 | 4:36:56 | |
leads this enquiry around
contaminated blood has to ensure | 4:36:56 | 4:36:59 | |
that the families and those affected
are at the heart of the enquiry and | 4:36:59 | 4:37:05 | |
that they feel included and able to
contribute to the enquiry as fully | 4:37:05 | 4:37:08 | |
as possible. I am raising that
because in Scotland we had the | 4:37:08 | 4:37:15 | |
Scottish enquiry, the Penrose
enquiry, led by a judge, and that | 4:37:15 | 4:37:19 | |
did not deliver for the people of
Scotland who had been affected by | 4:37:19 | 4:37:22 | |
this scandal in the way that we
wanted it to. Part of the problem | 4:37:22 | 4:37:26 | |
was the judge who was appointed. We
need to make sure, whichever judge | 4:37:26 | 4:37:31 | |
is appointed, that they have the
requisite legal and forensic skills | 4:37:31 | 4:37:34 | |
to do a good job, but also the
ability to understand what has | 4:37:34 | 4:37:39 | |
happened to people who have been so
badly damaged by the contaminated | 4:37:39 | 4:37:42 | |
blood scandal. I also wanted to say
we were really grateful for the | 4:37:42 | 4:37:48 | |
involvement of the former Bishop of
Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, in | 4:37:48 | 4:37:53 | |
interceding in the summer with the
government about the involvement of | 4:37:53 | 4:37:56 | |
the Department of Health. I think
his skill, wisdom, knowledge and | 4:37:56 | 4:38:01 | |
ability would be very well used in
some capacity in being choir read | 4:38:01 | 4:38:07 | |
that is going to hopefully start
next year. So I hope the government | 4:38:07 | 4:38:11 | |
will take that on board. I also
think the government could take | 4:38:11 | 4:38:15 | |
steps now to actually try and
alleviate some of the suffering this | 4:38:15 | 4:38:19 | |
group of people are experiencing.
First, the government have | 4:38:19 | 4:38:24 | |
introduced a new financial scheme,
not compensation, limited financial | 4:38:24 | 4:38:29 | |
support. But in Scotland, which has
its own scheme, it is more generous | 4:38:29 | 4:38:33 | |
in some regards. I would ask the
minister if he could take back to | 4:38:33 | 4:38:38 | |
his colleagues whether there could
be an agreement that we would have | 4:38:38 | 4:38:41 | |
in England a scheme that is no less
generous than in Scotland, and the | 4:38:41 | 4:38:46 | |
anomalies we have in the English
scheme could be ironed out. | 4:38:46 | 4:38:50 | |
Secondly, I think the government
could take action now to passport | 4:38:50 | 4:38:53 | |
people who have been affected by the
contaminated blood scandal through | 4:38:53 | 4:38:58 | |
the benefits system, so they don't
have to have constant assessments. | 4:38:58 | 4:39:02 | |
The third point I wanted to make was
that, as in the Irish settlement, | 4:39:02 | 4:39:08 | |
priority was given for NHS treatment
to people affected by this. Again, | 4:39:08 | 4:39:13 | |
the government could introduce that
as a positive measure. There are | 4:39:13 | 4:39:18 | |
three remaining would be backbench
contributors. The front bench | 4:39:18 | 4:39:21 | |
wind-up speech is must begin no
later than 4:27pm, so members can do | 4:39:21 | 4:39:27 | |
the arithmetic themselves. I commend
the perseverance of my honourable | 4:39:27 | 4:39:35 | |
friend in pursuing the contaminated
blood scandal. I want to wish you | 4:39:35 | 4:39:39 | |
and everyone a happy Christmas. The
topic I want to raise is less Merhi. | 4:39:39 | 4:39:45 | |
Job centres are evaluated on the
basis of benefit off-loaded. Lads | 4:39:45 | 4:39:53 | |
stow job centre, which was in the
constituency of my honourable | 4:39:53 | 4:39:56 | |
friend, the number of West Ham, who
is in her place, had a poor record. | 4:39:56 | 4:40:01 | |
A new manager, Tony Sutton,
appointed in May 2013, and a new | 4:40:01 | 4:40:07 | |
deputy, were determined to raise
benefit off-loaded. A very troubled | 4:40:07 | 4:40:13 | |
employee at the job centre, it can
stitch above mine, came to see me in | 4:40:13 | 4:40:20 | |
September 2013, describing awful
working conditions, unfair benefit | 4:40:20 | 4:40:22 | |
sanctions, harassing people off
benefits. I alerted the department, | 4:40:22 | 4:40:27 | |
a senior official visited the job
centre in October, I was grateful | 4:40:27 | 4:40:31 | |
for that. I understand staff were
banned from expressing concerns to | 4:40:31 | 4:40:35 | |
him. He reported that everything was
fine. I was told, for example, it | 4:40:35 | 4:40:41 | |
was common to ask people to sign on
for their benefit claim at irregular | 4:40:41 | 4:40:45 | |
dates, in the hope that they would
forget to do so one week and their | 4:40:45 | 4:40:49 | |
claim would then be closed. Advisers
were told to sanction a claimant if | 4:40:49 | 4:40:55 | |
rake or them on their mobile and
didn't answer twice. -- if they | 4:40:55 | 4:41:03 | |
called them on their mobile. In June
2014, I met a constituent, a | 4:41:03 | 4:41:09 | |
personal adviser at the job centre,
and a team leader there. They had | 4:41:09 | 4:41:13 | |
been sacked the month before. A
number of former staff there, not | 4:41:13 | 4:41:20 | |
those I have mentioned so far but
others, told me of a practice | 4:41:20 | 4:41:23 | |
introduced by the new manager. It
was designed in particular to avoid | 4:41:23 | 4:41:28 | |
people reaching 52 weeks in their
job-seeker's Allowance claim. | 4:41:28 | 4:41:33 | |
Because at that point they would
have had to be referred to the work | 4:41:33 | 4:41:37 | |
programme. There was immense
pressure on staff to stop that | 4:41:37 | 4:41:42 | |
happening and to stop referrals
taking place. The procedure, and I | 4:41:42 | 4:41:45 | |
am told it was used repeatedly from
mid-2013, was, as people approached | 4:41:45 | 4:41:51 | |
a deadline, to take them off benefit
and pay them instead the same amount | 4:41:51 | 4:41:55 | |
of cash from the flexible support
fund for a couple of weeks, on a | 4:41:55 | 4:42:01 | |
pretext, for example to pay for a
travel card to get to a nonexistent | 4:42:01 | 4:42:07 | |
job, and then to sign them back onto
job-seeker's Allowance again a short | 4:42:07 | 4:42:10 | |
time afterwards. Claimants got the
same amount of cash, and benefit off | 4:42:10 | 4:42:15 | |
Flo went up by one. However, housing
benefit was affected as well. And | 4:42:15 | 4:42:20 | |
one of those who was on the
receiving end of this, who I know, | 4:42:20 | 4:42:24 | |
complained about it. As a result,
the two employees were sacked. The | 4:42:24 | 4:42:31 | |
claimant who complained, and all the
staff I have discussed it with, are | 4:42:31 | 4:42:37 | |
clear that those two individuals,
those employees were not the guilty | 4:42:37 | 4:42:40 | |
parties. One was the adviser who
initiated the flexible support fund | 4:42:40 | 4:42:48 | |
payment, it is true. She only saw
the claimant that morning because a | 4:42:48 | 4:42:52 | |
colleague was late. It was made
clear by managers that this was what | 4:42:52 | 4:42:56 | |
she should do. The flexible support
fund payment was specified in a | 4:42:56 | 4:43:00 | |
post-it note that was already on the
claimant's file. The second employee | 4:43:00 | 4:43:06 | |
had no involvement at all but merely
authorised the use of a former for a | 4:43:06 | 4:43:11 | |
slightly different purpose than
usual. No action was taken against | 4:43:11 | 4:43:16 | |
other staff, who specified how much
should be paid, who authorised the | 4:43:16 | 4:43:20 | |
claim, nor against the managers. The
two employees were, in my view, | 4:43:20 | 4:43:27 | |
clearly scapegoats to cover up
malpractice by more senior | 4:43:27 | 4:43:30 | |
colleagues. One employee, unable to
afford representation, lost an | 4:43:30 | 4:43:38 | |
unfair dismissal claim. The tribunal
seems to have done a cut and paste | 4:43:38 | 4:43:42 | |
job on the DWP submission and made
no serious attempt to address what | 4:43:42 | 4:43:46 | |
really happened. The other employee
did not even try to claim. Since | 4:43:46 | 4:43:51 | |
2014, nobody has been able to tell
me any possible gain from the fraud | 4:43:51 | 4:43:57 | |
to the staff who were sacked.
Others, however, did have a clear | 4:43:57 | 4:44:03 | |
incentive to boost benefit off Flo.
I have pursued this for 3.5 years, | 4:44:03 | 4:44:11 | |
unable to remedy the injustice. One
of the women is still out of work | 4:44:11 | 4:44:14 | |
after more than three years. I want
to place on the public record an | 4:44:14 | 4:44:19 | |
account of what really happened.
Poorly designed numerical targets | 4:44:19 | 4:44:25 | |
gave a big scented is to managers,
and in this case, perhaps in others, | 4:44:25 | 4:44:30 | |
they succumbed to ten take --
temptation to bend the rules for | 4:44:30 | 4:44:34 | |
their own advancement. As well as
holding managers to account, | 4:44:34 | 4:44:38 | |
ministers need to reflect on what
went wrong, and on the very high | 4:44:38 | 4:44:42 | |
price paid by holy blameless
employees, and also by large numbers | 4:44:42 | 4:44:48 | |
of benefit claimants. This time last
year, my single, a band aid cover | 4:44:48 | 4:45:00 | |
named national living rage, rocketed
up the Christmas charts, | 4:45:00 | 4:45:03 | |
highlighting the plight of workers
in the national scandal of low and | 4:45:03 | 4:45:07 | |
unfair pay in Britain. There are
many matters of sincere importance | 4:45:07 | 4:45:11 | |
being discussed, but this Christmas
perhaps there are few as critical, | 4:45:11 | 4:45:19 | |
as heartbreaking and as lamentable
as the fact that 128,000 children | 4:45:19 | 4:45:23 | |
will wake up homeless on Christmas
morning. I can't help wonder how | 4:45:23 | 4:45:29 | |
closely my two recent Christmas
campaigns are linked, because over | 4:45:29 | 4:45:36 | |
half the homeless households in
London are in work. | 4:45:36 | 4:45:42 | |
It will take heart of stone to
consider childhood homelessness on | 4:45:43 | 4:45:46 | |
any scale acceptable and am
astonished to hear our Prime | 4:45:46 | 4:45:50 | |
Minister appearing to justify this
crisis yesterday by remarking that | 4:45:50 | 4:45:54 | |
these children are not rough
sleepers. Maybe not but these | 4:45:54 | 4:45:58 | |
children will wake up on Christmas
morning in Airbnbs, hostels, or on | 4:45:58 | 4:46:04 | |
the heart of a working industrial
estate in my own constituency -- in | 4:46:04 | 4:46:10 | |
B&Bs. I have seen children sleeping
rough but certainly children under | 4:46:10 | 4:46:19 | |
12 in hostels run by churches to
keep people off the street and that | 4:46:19 | 4:46:22 | |
for me is the lowest level of roof
overhead there is. It is not a long | 4:46:22 | 4:46:30 | |
step from sleeping on the street
itself. I completely agree with my | 4:46:30 | 4:46:34 | |
honourable friend. If I take Sarah's
family in temporary accommodation, | 4:46:34 | 4:46:39 | |
they will not have a Christmas
dinner because they have no | 4:46:39 | 4:46:42 | |
facilities to cook it. They will not
have a Christmas treat because the | 4:46:42 | 4:46:46 | |
room cannot fit anything other than
the bed that the four of them share. | 4:46:46 | 4:46:50 | |
They will not have any presents
because every penny possible is | 4:46:50 | 4:46:54 | |
being put aside to one day have
enough for the extortionate deposit | 4:46:54 | 4:46:57 | |
that is the golden ticket needed to
enter the private rented sector. I | 4:46:57 | 4:47:02 | |
will be amazed if Father Christmas
is even able to find Sarah's family | 4:47:02 | 4:47:07 | |
because she is one of the 22,000
families that have been moved out of | 4:47:07 | 4:47:12 | |
their home Boro often without
receiving the local author -- | 4:47:12 | 4:47:18 | |
without the receiving local
authority being made aware of their | 4:47:18 | 4:47:20 | |
arrival and when that happens I'm in
no doubt that their safety cannot be | 4:47:20 | 4:47:25 | |
guaranteed. Children's rights
Alliance for England recent Freedom | 4:47:25 | 4:47:28 | |
of information request have
astonishingly discovered that almost | 4:47:28 | 4:47:32 | |
a quarter of temporary accommodation
is only inspected by local | 4:47:32 | 4:47:36 | |
authorities once the tenants have
left. Worryingly, nearly two thirds | 4:47:36 | 4:47:41 | |
said they did not even seek advice
from their safeguarding servers when | 4:47:41 | 4:47:45 | |
they placed families in B&Bs or
temporary accommodation. These are | 4:47:45 | 4:47:50 | |
the realities faced by the 79,190
families in temporary accommodation | 4:47:50 | 4:47:56 | |
in England today and of course these
figures do not even account for the | 4:47:56 | 4:48:01 | |
9000 rough sleepers on the street of
each of our constituencies or the | 4:48:01 | 4:48:07 | |
56% of 16-25 -year-old in the UK who
say they have families or friends | 4:48:07 | 4:48:12 | |
who have so far served. There can be
no doubt as to the responsibility | 4:48:12 | 4:48:15 | |
for this country's deplorable
housing crisis. The report yesterday | 4:48:15 | 4:48:20 | |
from the public affairs committee
explicitly read that the Department | 4:48:20 | 4:48:24 | |
for Communities and Local Government
had and an acceptably complacent | 4:48:24 | 4:48:29 | |
attitude to reducing homelessness.
The current plans to tackle the | 4:48:29 | 4:48:32 | |
issue were that address only the tip
of the iceberg and there is an | 4:48:32 | 4:48:37 | |
unacceptable shortage of realistic
housing options for the homeless. | 4:48:37 | 4:48:41 | |
Most of us know that already. The
last time the government target of | 4:48:41 | 4:48:46 | |
300 new homes were built in one year
in England was achieved almost half | 4:48:46 | 4:48:51 | |
a century ago in 1969. The different
back then was that councils and | 4:48:51 | 4:48:56 | |
housing associations were building
new homes. A solution is right in | 4:48:56 | 4:49:01 | |
our hands and that is to give
councils the right to build as well | 4:49:01 | 4:49:04 | |
as the right to buy. The private
sector has never reached and does | 4:49:04 | 4:49:09 | |
not have the inclination to reach
the government target. Take last | 4:49:09 | 4:49:12 | |
year for example. Only 121,000
permanent dwellings were completed | 4:49:12 | 4:49:20 | |
by private companies. Meanwhile just
184 -- 1840 were completed by local | 4:49:20 | 4:49:27 | |
authorities. If the government
target of building 300,000 new homes | 4:49:27 | 4:49:33 | |
is to be achieved, councils simply
had to play their part and that is | 4:49:33 | 4:49:37 | |
why I am calling upon the government
to grant local authorities the right | 4:49:37 | 4:49:41 | |
to build and the right to buy so
that housing can be let to families | 4:49:41 | 4:49:44 | |
on low incomes at social housing
rents. A home to live in should | 4:49:44 | 4:49:51 | |
appear on no child's Christmas list,
Father Christmas is not in a | 4:49:51 | 4:49:55 | |
position to influence the budgets of
local authorities but the government | 4:49:55 | 4:49:58 | |
is and on behalf of the 128,000
homeless children across the country | 4:49:58 | 4:50:05 | |
I sincerely hope this will be their
last Christmas morning without a | 4:50:05 | 4:50:07 | |
place to call home. As always it is
a pleasure to be called and I want | 4:50:07 | 4:50:15 | |
to quickly focus on the real meaning
of Christmas. It is not about the | 4:50:15 | 4:50:22 | |
date but the remembrance and it
means a celebration of Christ from | 4:50:22 | 4:50:26 | |
the time set aside for people around
the world to remember that Christ | 4:50:26 | 4:50:30 | |
gave up his ability to come to
Earth. | 4:50:30 | 4:50:38 | |
There's no point in Christmas if we
did not have Easter and I'm pleased | 4:50:42 | 4:50:45 | |
to celebrate them both. As a time of
people from every nation have time | 4:50:45 | 4:50:50 | |
to recognise not a date but a
promise fulfilled, but the time of | 4:50:50 | 4:50:53 | |
birth but an offer for new births to
all who believe and accept Christ | 4:50:53 | 4:50:57 | |
and not a birth certificate but a a
loving God to people. That is what | 4:50:57 | 4:51:01 | |
Christmas is all about. I love
Christmas is a time to remember what | 4:51:01 | 4:51:07 | |
the Lord did for us and Christians
throughout the world are joining | 4:51:07 | 4:51:11 | |
with me and others to thank God for
the real meaning of Christmas. We | 4:51:11 | 4:51:16 | |
also remember those who cannot
worship our God like everybody of | 4:51:16 | 4:51:22 | |
can who threw the book and physical
abuse can go to a church and | 4:51:22 | 4:51:28 | |
worship. I would urge the members of
this house to pray for them and keep | 4:51:28 | 4:51:33 | |
them in their thoughts. I thought
very much of what I wanted to say | 4:51:33 | 4:51:45 | |
about the volunteers and I want to
focus on them quickly to set a most | 4:51:45 | 4:51:52 | |
sincere thank you to the people in
our community who work day and night | 4:51:52 | 4:51:57 | |
sacrificing and doing a lot more to
provide help to people throughout | 4:51:57 | 4:52:00 | |
the UK. They will be the people
spending Christmas without their | 4:52:00 | 4:52:06 | |
family and will take care of other
people, whether it is NHS staff, | 4:52:06 | 4:52:12 | |
health staff, the GP services, lab
technicians, police services, | 4:52:12 | 4:52:18 | |
intelligence agencies who do not
sleep in their bed so we can sleep | 4:52:18 | 4:52:22 | |
in hours, the Fire Service and
prison officers, those in uniform | 4:52:22 | 4:52:27 | |
whether the Navy, Army or air force.
Those in another part of the world | 4:52:27 | 4:52:33 | |
will not be close to their family
and we should think of them. I also | 4:52:33 | 4:52:39 | |
wanted to highlight the fact that
our nation would not work as it does | 4:52:39 | 4:52:42 | |
without the help and support of the
little army of volunteers that Daly | 4:52:42 | 4:52:48 | |
give their time and energy to make a
difference and help people | 4:52:48 | 4:52:50 | |
throughout this land and we could
not do without them. We live in a | 4:52:50 | 4:52:58 | |
nation of givers, people who give
charitably and greatly throughout | 4:52:58 | 4:53:01 | |
the year and it makes me proud to be
British when we have such a giving | 4:53:01 | 4:53:05 | |
mentality also I know us in Northern
Ireland perhaps get above the | 4:53:05 | 4:53:13 | |
national average but we all do that
and we should keep it in mind. | 4:53:13 | 4:53:17 | |
Unconscious of a few charities, I
will not go through them all because | 4:53:17 | 4:53:20 | |
I would not have the time, but I
want to mention the food banks who | 4:53:20 | 4:53:25 | |
do a lot of work at this time of the
year. The 700 independent once, they | 4:53:25 | 4:53:35 | |
do almost 3 million hours of
volunteer work each year, equivalent | 4:53:35 | 4:53:39 | |
to a basic wage of some £22 million,
that is what they do for us and we | 4:53:39 | 4:53:48 | |
should keep in mind. If we think of
one sector, this politic base | 4:53:48 | 4:53:51 | |
support is well as the thousands who
food banks to help communities and | 4:53:51 | 4:53:56 | |
we all need to contribute to that. I
wanted to express my thanks to all | 4:53:56 | 4:54:00 | |
of those who have volunteered and
helped out in churches and community | 4:54:00 | 4:54:06 | |
groups in my constituency and the
rest of our great United Kingdom of | 4:54:06 | 4:54:12 | |
Great Britain and Northern Ireland.
Our society would not work without | 4:54:12 | 4:54:15 | |
people helping others and this
selflessness is so clear at | 4:54:15 | 4:54:18 | |
Christmas as you hear people
donating to food banks, churches | 4:54:18 | 4:54:22 | |
providing gifts and carol singing to
the elderly as people invite | 4:54:22 | 4:54:26 | |
neighbours and relatives to eat with
them. It is about family, all of us | 4:54:26 | 4:54:33 | |
hopefully it will have our family
around us but some people do not and | 4:54:33 | 4:54:36 | |
we should be mindful of them also I
want to offer a sincere thank you to | 4:54:36 | 4:54:41 | |
everyone who has played a part this
year in making someone's life better | 4:54:41 | 4:54:47 | |
and with it is the Salvation Army
who did help to individuals, the | 4:54:47 | 4:54:54 | |
homelessness that others have
referred to, we all have a focus for | 4:54:54 | 4:54:59 | |
our people and what we try to do. I
want to thank U, Mr Speaker, for | 4:54:59 | 4:55:05 | |
your patience for us all in the
house. I say it with sincerity every | 4:55:05 | 4:55:12 | |
time. You probably show more
patients to me than anybody else! | 4:55:12 | 4:55:19 | |
And I will try this year to not use
the word you and I will try for that | 4:55:19 | 4:55:26 | |
to happen, it has only taken me
seven years! But I will try to | 4:55:26 | 4:55:30 | |
remember it in the year to come. Do
the honourable member for Chorley, | 4:55:30 | 4:55:34 | |
he is very much in our thoughts. I
want to put that on record and we | 4:55:34 | 4:55:41 | |
keep his family very much in our
minds and prayers at this time. To | 4:55:41 | 4:55:45 | |
the other deputy speakers who
equally treat us fairly with the | 4:55:45 | 4:55:51 | |
patience and kindness that you are
to us. And maybe one thing, you are | 4:55:51 | 4:56:00 | |
very much a champion of the
backbencher, and for me being one of | 4:56:00 | 4:56:05 | |
those, I particularly enjoy the
opportunity to participate in the | 4:56:05 | 4:56:08 | |
debates. To those and Saad staff who
have been able to understand my | 4:56:08 | 4:56:15 | |
accent, thank you for that --
Hansard staff. And to all those who | 4:56:15 | 4:56:27 | |
are looking after a sick the
security, and can I offer to all | 4:56:27 | 4:56:31 | |
right honourable members, to Her
Majesty's government and opposition | 4:56:31 | 4:56:37 | |
to have a very Merry Christmas and
happy New Year and on behalf of my | 4:56:37 | 4:56:42 | |
constituents who I have the
privilege to represent, I wish them | 4:56:42 | 4:56:48 | |
a Merry Christmas publicly in this
house and a happy New Year. Thank | 4:56:48 | 4:56:51 | |
you so much. I thank the honourable
gentleman who has spoken in the | 4:56:51 | 4:56:56 | |
spirit we have come to expect from
them and it is hugely appreciated. | 4:56:56 | 4:57:02 | |
What a pleasure it is to follow my
honourable friend who has been a | 4:57:02 | 4:57:06 | |
real source of encouragement since I
joined this out and I pay tribute to | 4:57:06 | 4:57:10 | |
him. I'm grateful for the
opportunity to contribute to this | 4:57:10 | 4:57:13 | |
Christmas adjournment and I would
like to express my best wishes to | 4:57:13 | 4:57:17 | |
the whole house in particular the
staff who have been incredible in | 4:57:17 | 4:57:22 | |
welcoming to new members for a very
happy and peaceful Christmas. When I | 4:57:22 | 4:57:26 | |
volunteered to some of this debate
for the assembly I had not quite | 4:57:26 | 4:57:29 | |
been aware of what I was letting
myself in for! We have had 16 | 4:57:29 | 4:57:34 | |
backbench contributions from members
from various constituencies and it | 4:57:34 | 4:57:51 | |
has been probably the most
wide-ranging debate I have sat in on | 4:57:51 | 4:57:55 | |
the house and I pay tribute to the
honourable gentleman to the member | 4:57:55 | 4:58:01 | |
for South and West who got similar
topics in. I also want to place on | 4:58:01 | 4:58:07 | |
record my sincere thanks to Mike
constituency staff for all their | 4:58:07 | 4:58:15 | |
hard work since by-election in June.
Their support has been invaluable | 4:58:15 | 4:58:20 | |
and I'm indebted to them. The turn
of the year is normally an | 4:58:20 | 4:58:25 | |
opportunity for us to reflect on the
year past but I want to look forward | 4:58:25 | 4:58:30 | |
to 2018 and in particular to some of
the major challenges coming down the | 4:58:30 | 4:58:34 | |
track from my own city of Glasgow.
Last Friday I met with Easterhouse | 4:58:34 | 4:58:39 | |
Housing and regeneration Alliance
which is a coalition of social | 4:58:39 | 4:58:43 | |
housing providers in greater
Easterhouse. Before going further I | 4:58:43 | 4:58:49 | |
would like to pay tribute to the
staff and directors of those housing | 4:58:49 | 4:58:52 | |
associations because they are more
than just that. They are the | 4:58:52 | 4:58:58 | |
backbone of the community and are
well above and beyond the role of | 4:58:58 | 4:59:02 | |
the registered social landlord and
it is important that the point is | 4:59:02 | 4:59:05 | |
place on record and ours is here
thanks for all the housing | 4:59:05 | 4:59:10 | |
associations which are so often the
glue that holds communities | 4:59:10 | 4:59:12 | |
together. When I met last week, they
express to meet serious concerns | 4:59:12 | 4:59:18 | |
about changes emanating from the
Department for Work and Pensions | 4:59:18 | 4:59:21 | |
next year that will be a hammer blow
to the city of Glasgow and a double | 4:59:21 | 4:59:26 | |
blow at that. Ministers have already
signalled their intention to close | 4:59:26 | 4:59:30 | |
half of Glasgow's job centres with
three out of four in the East End of | 4:59:30 | 4:59:34 | |
June for the axe. As it stands, job
centres in Easterhouse and Parkhead | 4:59:34 | 4:59:39 | |
as well as Bridgeton will all be
closed and relocated to Shettleston. | 4:59:39 | 4:59:45 | |
Nowhere in the UK is being as
disproportionately impacted by these | 4:59:45 | 4:59:51 | |
closure at the east end of Glasgow
which has an unemployed rate that is | 4:59:51 | 4:59:55 | |
double that of the UK national
average. I'm afraid that despite | 4:59:55 | 5:00:00 | |
countless written questions, items
of correspondence and meeting from | 5:00:00 | 5:00:04 | |
the employment minister has
repeatedly failed to take account of | 5:00:04 | 5:00:08 | |
the profound concerns expressed by
myself and the whole community in | 5:00:08 | 5:00:11 | |
the East End of Glasgow and that
includes our three East End Tory | 5:00:11 | 5:00:15 | |
councillors who also opposed the
closures. | 5:00:15 | 5:00:21 | |
I thank him for giving wave. The job
centre closures are affecting the | 5:00:21 | 5:00:26 | |
whole city of Glasgow. Is he
particularly concerned, as iambic, | 5:00:26 | 5:00:31 | |
that ministers have neither been
reassuring on whether this will be | 5:00:31 | 5:00:33 | |
the last round of closures, and
there is a risk that further down | 5:00:33 | 5:00:37 | |
the road the city could lose even
more job centre provision? I think | 5:00:37 | 5:00:43 | |
he is absolutely right. That should
sound the alarm bells, and I join | 5:00:43 | 5:00:49 | |
him in -- in expressing concern. It
is not too late to drop these plans | 5:00:49 | 5:00:53 | |
and they should conduct a full
equality impact assessment. When | 5:00:53 | 5:00:58 | |
they do that, they will see for
themselves the profound challenges | 5:00:58 | 5:01:02 | |
posed in terms of sanctions,
transport connections and the deep | 5:01:02 | 5:01:07 | |
rooted issues of territorial as and
gang violence that exist in our | 5:01:07 | 5:01:10 | |
city. The second issue relates to
universal credit. The social | 5:01:10 | 5:01:20 | |
destruction of universal credit is
due to be unleashed on Glasgow next | 5:01:20 | 5:01:23 | |
year and it is crystal clear from
debates in this House that universal | 5:01:23 | 5:01:28 | |
credit is not working. More than
that, it is fundamentally flawed and | 5:01:28 | 5:01:32 | |
that we can around the edges we saw
in the Budget is not enough. | 5:01:32 | 5:01:37 | |
Concerns exist, not just from
politicians in the House but from | 5:01:37 | 5:01:41 | |
Housing associations and the third
sector, as to how it will be rolled | 5:01:41 | 5:01:46 | |
out, particularly in Glasgow.
Evidence is mounting showing that | 5:01:46 | 5:01:50 | |
universal credit creates social
destruction as it rolls out. I would | 5:01:50 | 5:01:53 | |
say that the reduction from six
weeks down to five weeks is not | 5:01:53 | 5:01:56 | |
enough. The wait for the first
payment is pushing into debt and | 5:01:56 | 5:02:03 | |
crisis and we know 25% of payments
are waiting longer than six weeks, | 5:02:03 | 5:02:08 | |
according to the Department for Work
and Pensions. The manner in which | 5:02:08 | 5:02:11 | |
the Tories have rolled this out is
opposed to their stated intention of | 5:02:11 | 5:02:17 | |
making universal credit a salary.
The refusal is nothing more than | 5:02:17 | 5:02:23 | |
arrogance because we see the party
opposite are wedded to this | 5:02:23 | 5:02:26 | |
ideological flagship welfare cut,
despite the misery it is causing in | 5:02:26 | 5:02:31 | |
communities. Citizens advice
Scotland have said that evidence | 5:02:31 | 5:02:36 | |
shows an average of a 15% rise in
rent arrears issues compared to a | 5:02:36 | 5:02:42 | |
national decrease of 2%, and an 87%
increase in crisis grant issues, | 5:02:42 | 5:02:46 | |
compare to a national increase of
9%. They analysed over 52,000 cases | 5:02:46 | 5:02:52 | |
and concluded that those on
universal credit would, on average, | 5:02:52 | 5:02:55 | |
appear to have fewer than £4 per
month left to pay their creditors | 5:02:55 | 5:03:01 | |
after they paid essential costs.
That is not something we should | 5:03:01 | 5:03:04 | |
condone. The Trussell Trust reported
a 7% increase in food bank use in | 5:03:04 | 5:03:10 | |
areas of universal credit roll-out,
more than double the national | 5:03:10 | 5:03:15 | |
average. In my own constituency, a
food bank is that breaking point. | 5:03:15 | 5:03:20 | |
What we will see with full universal
credit roll-out in Glasgow could be | 5:03:20 | 5:03:24 | |
the straw that breaks the camel's
back. That is why I am calling for | 5:03:24 | 5:03:29 | |
the roll-out of universal credit to
be halted in Glasgow and abandoned | 5:03:29 | 5:03:32 | |
entirely. If there is one thing I
have learned in my time in this | 5:03:32 | 5:03:37 | |
House, it is that this government
has a difficult job with listening. | 5:03:37 | 5:03:41 | |
We see it with opposition debates,
with the power grab, with the Brexit | 5:03:41 | 5:03:44 | |
Bill. With Christmas spirit, I would
ask ministers to come back to this | 5:03:44 | 5:03:51 | |
House with a New Year 's resolution
to listen and act in the interest of | 5:03:51 | 5:03:55 | |
communities, and they can start by
abandoning the proposed closures of | 5:03:55 | 5:04:00 | |
Glasgow's job centres and halting
the universal credit roll-out in | 5:04:00 | 5:04:03 | |
Glasgow. I promised brevity to the
House, as I am aware that colleagues | 5:04:03 | 5:04:11 | |
will want to return to their
constituencies and families for | 5:04:11 | 5:04:15 | |
Christmas and maybe start some
Christmas shopping for those who | 5:04:15 | 5:04:18 | |
have not managed it. I spotted some
ministers today in the House of | 5:04:18 | 5:04:24 | |
Commons shop myself, so I know we
are behind. With the Prime Minister, | 5:04:24 | 5:04:30 | |
the Defence Secretary, the Foreign
Secretary, the trade Secretary and | 5:04:30 | 5:04:33 | |
the Business Secretary all in
Poland, and the first secretary | 5:04:33 | 5:04:37 | |
resigning, I wonder if my opposite
number, the Deputy Leader, feels he | 5:04:37 | 5:04:41 | |
is starring in the remake of home
alone for Christmas. I enjoy working | 5:04:41 | 5:04:47 | |
opposite him. He has been supportive
and I wish him well in his | 5:04:47 | 5:04:51 | |
endeavours. The government is in
safe hands with him in coming weeks. | 5:04:51 | 5:04:56 | |
Brexit is the biggest issue of our
time and it has been right that we | 5:04:56 | 5:05:00 | |
have concentrated so much of our
time in this place on that subject. | 5:05:00 | 5:05:05 | |
We have had over 64 hours of debate
on the withdrawal bill, over 300 | 5:05:05 | 5:05:10 | |
amendments have been tabled in
total, 14 reports by ten different | 5:05:10 | 5:05:14 | |
committees. We have had 43 votes in
total, and we have one one of those, | 5:05:14 | 5:05:22 | |
but a very important one. As many
colleagues have said previously, and | 5:05:22 | 5:05:27 | |
you have endorsed, it is crucial to
the functioning of our parliamentary | 5:05:27 | 5:05:31 | |
democracy that all members vote
according to their judgment in the | 5:05:31 | 5:05:35 | |
best interest of their constituents,
and the outcome of amendment seven | 5:05:35 | 5:05:40 | |
has been reassuring for Democrats. I
never thought I would be pleased to | 5:05:40 | 5:05:45 | |
be surrounded by so many eminent
lawyers in the last few weeks, but | 5:05:45 | 5:05:51 | |
it has been very interesting. I have
found it quite a treat to witness | 5:05:51 | 5:05:56 | |
colleagues so ingenuously pursuing
every legislative avenue to take | 5:05:56 | 5:06:02 | |
back control to this place. I have
learnt a lot, I have learnt about | 5:06:02 | 5:06:06 | |
humble addresses, and I am almost
clear on the difference between a | 5:06:06 | 5:06:10 | |
sector analysis and an impact
assessment. You could make a lot of | 5:06:10 | 5:06:18 | |
money on that! We owe many
honourable and right honourable | 5:06:18 | 5:06:22 | |
members, who have pored over every
detail of the withdrawal bill, their | 5:06:22 | 5:06:25 | |
advisers and the clerks of this
house, a huge debt, and I sincerely | 5:06:25 | 5:06:29 | |
hope they have some lighter reading
over the Christmas period. Members | 5:06:29 | 5:06:35 | |
have pursued, whilst we have been
talking about Brexit, other | 5:06:35 | 5:06:39 | |
important debates here and in
Westminster Hall, and we heard | 5:06:39 | 5:06:42 | |
particularly from colleagues here
about the roll-out of universal | 5:06:42 | 5:06:45 | |
credit, and we have heard it again
this afternoon. It is having a huge | 5:06:45 | 5:06:50 | |
impact on families struggling to
make ends meet, who we particularly | 5:06:50 | 5:06:53 | |
think about over the Christmas
period. All of us, regardless of | 5:06:53 | 5:06:58 | |
party, have a huge number of
constituents affected. I know | 5:06:58 | 5:07:00 | |
colleagues will share our commitment
to do what we can to mitigate the | 5:07:00 | 5:07:05 | |
impact of this policy when the House
returns in the New Year. We have | 5:07:05 | 5:07:09 | |
heard again in this debate from many
honourable members about issues | 5:07:09 | 5:07:13 | |
close to their hearts and their
constituencies, and it has been a | 5:07:13 | 5:07:18 | |
fairly sombre debate this afternoon,
with so many important issues being | 5:07:18 | 5:07:24 | |
raised, which illustrates again that
regardless of what side of the House | 5:07:24 | 5:07:28 | |
we sit, our constituents often face
the same issues, and we share work | 5:07:28 | 5:07:33 | |
and support each other across the
House to make that better for | 5:07:33 | 5:07:35 | |
people. We heard from honourable
members from many | 5:07:35 | 5:07:52 | |
constituencies, on a huge range of
subjects. I did not know it was the | 5:07:55 | 5:08:07 | |
50th anniversary of Crisis, which we
heard about today, starting off from | 5:08:07 | 5:08:12 | |
the honourable member for debate.
Transport occupied my friends, an | 5:08:12 | 5:08:21 | |
excellent point on behalf of sports
fans about travelling on Boxing Day, | 5:08:21 | 5:08:27 | |
workers, shoppers and theatre-goers.
My honourable friend from Ealing and | 5:08:27 | 5:08:34 | |
central act and is well advised on
transport matters by a very keen son | 5:08:34 | 5:08:38 | |
on these subjects, and she made a
very good point about the impact of | 5:08:38 | 5:08:42 | |
welcome infrastructure projects on
her constituency, and the importance | 5:08:42 | 5:08:46 | |
of small business with HS2. My
friend from West Ham demonstrates | 5:08:46 | 5:08:53 | |
the range of passionate campaigns
she has pursued in this place and | 5:08:53 | 5:08:58 | |
the huge respect in which she is
held for that work across the House, | 5:08:58 | 5:09:02 | |
and we heard from three of the
campaigns she will be pursuing. She | 5:09:02 | 5:09:07 | |
already managed to elicit some
response from the government bench | 5:09:07 | 5:09:09 | |
already. I first heard the
honourable member speak to a Labour | 5:09:09 | 5:09:16 | |
Party talk when I was obviously a
young child in the late 1980s, | 5:09:16 | 5:09:22 | |
talking about defence and
international affairs. He was hugely | 5:09:22 | 5:09:26 | |
impressive and knowledgeable on the
subject and talked with passion | 5:09:26 | 5:09:29 | |
about British citizens here and
abroad. Long may he continue to do | 5:09:29 | 5:09:33 | |
so on behalf of the people of Ilford
South. My friend from | 5:09:33 | 5:09:39 | |
Kingston-upon-Hull is the embodiment
of the phrase "Must persevere". I | 5:09:39 | 5:09:44 | |
remember hearing the good news she
brought forward about the campaign | 5:09:44 | 5:09:48 | |
in July, and I am struck to hear
that she has again had to pursue | 5:09:48 | 5:09:52 | |
every single avenue. She will
persist, and she made that point so | 5:09:52 | 5:09:57 | |
eloquently on behalf of those
families. My friend from East Ham is | 5:09:57 | 5:10:02 | |
very knowledgeable and I listen
tentatively when he is talking about | 5:10:02 | 5:10:06 | |
such matters, raised terrible
accounts of activities going on in | 5:10:06 | 5:10:10 | |
the job centre and I know he will
pursue that with ministers. And my | 5:10:10 | 5:10:16 | |
friend reminded us of her record
production for last year, which we | 5:10:16 | 5:10:21 | |
very much enjoyed, and pursues
relentlessly another Christmas | 5:10:21 | 5:10:24 | |
campaign on behalf of those homeless
children she has been working so | 5:10:24 | 5:10:29 | |
well on, another dedicated
campaigner who has been a constant | 5:10:29 | 5:10:32 | |
source of good advice and support to
me personally, and many other | 5:10:32 | 5:10:36 | |
honourable members. I am sure
everyone will join me in giving | 5:10:36 | 5:10:40 | |
thanks to all those across the
country who, despite enormous | 5:10:40 | 5:10:44 | |
pressure on local services, work so
hard over this period to provide the | 5:10:44 | 5:10:48 | |
vital services communities need, our
service men and women who keep us | 5:10:48 | 5:10:52 | |
safe, to those who keep public
places clean, and to all public | 5:10:52 | 5:10:56 | |
servants, it heartfelt thanks for
all they do. If I may just touch on | 5:10:56 | 5:11:01 | |
my own constituency, Bristol South,
I would like to picture the two GPs | 5:11:01 | 5:11:04 | |
surgeries and staff at South Bristol
Community Hospital who will be | 5:11:04 | 5:11:09 | |
providing vital care to people over
this period. In keeping with the | 5:11:09 | 5:11:13 | |
Christmas tradition, the red red
Robin keeps bobbing along. I would | 5:11:13 | 5:11:17 | |
like to take this opportunity to say
well done to Bristol City on their | 5:11:17 | 5:11:23 | |
2-1 win last night against
Manchester United in Ashton Gate. | 5:11:23 | 5:11:27 | |
Never have I met so many fans of not
wanting Manchester United to win as | 5:11:27 | 5:11:32 | |
last night, Mr Speaker. I am not a
regular football fan. I enjoy the | 5:11:32 | 5:11:37 | |
occasional game. I work closely with
the club in my constituency and they | 5:11:37 | 5:11:41 | |
make a huge contribution to the
local community. Many other football | 5:11:41 | 5:11:45 | |
clubs across the country do that
work, so well done to them and I | 5:11:45 | 5:11:49 | |
hope they have some rest over the
period for the next game, Manchester | 5:11:49 | 5:11:52 | |
City. It is a shame we did not have
a different drawer. I would have | 5:11:52 | 5:11:57 | |
enjoyed welcoming you to Bristol
South to partake in watching the | 5:11:57 | 5:12:00 | |
game, if Arsenal had been drawn. I
am looking forward to spending my | 5:12:00 | 5:12:04 | |
family time in Bristol. I am sure
they will be pleased to see me. It | 5:12:04 | 5:12:10 | |
is not easy, as has been said, our
families support us very well and I | 5:12:10 | 5:12:16 | |
hope many honourable members will
have time with their families. I | 5:12:16 | 5:12:19 | |
will be catching up with the Crown.
I am a fan of the series and I hope | 5:12:19 | 5:12:25 | |
to polish my accent a bit by the end
of the session. I am hoping to catch | 5:12:25 | 5:12:30 | |
up with the last Jedi. If honourable
members have not seen Paddington | 5:12:30 | 5:12:36 | |
two, I recommend it. It carries
heart-warming messages about the | 5:12:36 | 5:12:40 | |
importance of an inclusive, caring
society which we could all take back | 5:12:40 | 5:12:43 | |
with us. Those from Bristol will
have the opportunity to visit my | 5:12:43 | 5:12:49 | |
constituency to watch beauty and the
beast being performed in the Tobacco | 5:12:49 | 5:12:51 | |
factory Theatre, a reminder that in
these often very cruel times, we are | 5:12:51 | 5:12:58 | |
seeing that beauty and beastliness
are only skin deep. On that note, Mr | 5:12:58 | 5:13:04 | |
Speaker, I would wish to all my
colleagues and colleagues across the | 5:13:04 | 5:13:07 | |
house, a safe and happy, peaceful
Christmas. I look forward to | 5:13:07 | 5:13:12 | |
continuing to work with you all in
the New Year, and welcoming in a new | 5:13:12 | 5:13:17 | |
Labour government.
Well, it was going so well until | 5:13:17 | 5:13:27 | |
that last point! I really don't
think that is likely to happen. In | 5:13:27 | 5:13:33 | |
fact, can I start by welcoming the
honourable lady's comments? She | 5:13:33 | 5:13:38 | |
started by mentioning how many
ministers from Her Majesty's | 5:13:38 | 5:13:41 | |
government were in Poland at the
moment. Can I assure the House that | 5:13:41 | 5:13:45 | |
I am not the only one left, as you
can see from the front bench. The | 5:13:45 | 5:13:49 | |
stock markets may still be open, so
I don't want to alarm the stock | 5:13:49 | 5:13:54 | |
market. I am not in charge! I hear
shouts of "Shame" from behind me and | 5:13:54 | 5:14:03 | |
that will be kindly noted. Can I
start by making reference to my | 5:14:03 | 5:14:08 | |
honourable friend from Harrow East,
because he spoke as passionately as | 5:14:08 | 5:14:13 | |
ever about his constituency, but
before doing so, he made reference | 5:14:13 | 5:14:17 | |
to the member for Chorley, the
chairman of ways and Means, Deputy | 5:14:17 | 5:14:22 | |
speaker of this House, and the
tragedy that has befallen him, and | 5:14:22 | 5:14:25 | |
our hearts go out to that member,
our friend, at this time of tragedy. | 5:14:25 | 5:14:33 | |
The honourable gentleman also
referred to the work he has done in | 5:14:33 | 5:14:38 | |
the Homelessness Reduction Act,
which is very soon to come into | 5:14:38 | 5:14:41 | |
force, the 1st of April, I think,
next year. He mentioned it is the | 5:14:41 | 5:14:46 | |
longest and most expensive private
members bill ever. That is | 5:14:46 | 5:14:51 | |
impressive, but what is important is
the fact that he has achieved this | 5:14:51 | 5:14:57 | |
and it is a wonderful achievement,
and one that recognises the | 5:14:57 | 5:15:01 | |
interests of us all in reducing
homelessness. He also spoke about | 5:15:01 | 5:15:06 | |
those events in his constituency and
those organisations such as mencap, | 5:15:06 | 5:15:14 | |
such as the organisation that
encourages very young children and | 5:15:14 | 5:15:18 | |
people to work on computer code, and
he spoke about the Crisis charity. | 5:15:18 | 5:15:24 | |
And I know that the honourable
gentleman, my friend, is a member | 5:15:24 | 5:15:28 | |
who is referred to by the Hindu
community in his constituency with a | 5:15:28 | 5:15:35 | |
term of affection, someone who is
recognised throughout Harrow East as | 5:15:35 | 5:15:39 | |
a representative of all. | 5:15:39 | 5:15:44 | |
The honourable gentleman for Keely
spoke of the lack of a train service | 5:15:44 | 5:15:47 | |
on Boxing Day and also about his
sports teams and those teams he | 5:15:47 | 5:15:53 | |
wishes well and we join him in that.
That is no doubt something that a | 5:15:53 | 5:15:59 | |
number of constituents across the
house will recognise as an issue, | 5:15:59 | 5:16:03 | |
that the absence of a train on
Boxing Day and one I'm sure he will | 5:16:03 | 5:16:07 | |
pursue. He did actually finish his
remarks I think by mentioning a | 5:16:07 | 5:16:14 | |
horse race in his constituency, the
King George, which takes place on | 5:16:14 | 5:16:18 | |
that day and no doubt he will be
there and enjoying it. At least I'm | 5:16:18 | 5:16:22 | |
making that assumption. As far as my
honourable friend for Mole Valley is | 5:16:22 | 5:16:27 | |
concerned, he made a passionate
speech about HPV vaccination for | 5:16:27 | 5:16:34 | |
boys as well as girls. This is
clearly something which he speaks | 5:16:34 | 5:16:39 | |
with considerable expertise about
because I know he has a dental | 5:16:39 | 5:16:44 | |
background and he made a powerful
case and I have no doubt he will | 5:16:44 | 5:16:47 | |
want to raise this with the Health
Secretary because what he said was | 5:16:47 | 5:16:51 | |
clearly well-informed. I can say
that since 2010 survival rates for | 5:16:51 | 5:16:59 | |
cancer have increased year on year
and it is true to say that the | 5:16:59 | 5:17:02 | |
statisticians have calculated that
some 7000 people are alive today who | 5:17:02 | 5:17:06 | |
would not have been because of those
increases. But there is of course | 5:17:06 | 5:17:11 | |
much more work still to do. The
honourable gentleman for Caithness | 5:17:11 | 5:17:16 | |
and Sutherland and Easter Ross spoke
about the importance of broadband in | 5:17:16 | 5:17:22 | |
his constituency and since 2014I
would have to say that the Scottish | 5:17:22 | 5:17:25 | |
Government have had the funding and
have not started on that important | 5:17:25 | 5:17:31 | |
area, they are behind England, Wales
and Northern Ireland and the next | 5:17:31 | 5:17:36 | |
generation of broadband will not be
going through the Scottish | 5:17:36 | 5:17:38 | |
Government as a consequence of that.
The local full fibre network | 5:17:38 | 5:17:44 | |
programme and the 5G programme the
UK Government will work with local | 5:17:44 | 5:17:49 | |
councils directly because it is
important that broadband is provided | 5:17:49 | 5:17:54 | |
to his constituents and of course
the goes throughout Scotland. My | 5:17:54 | 5:18:00 | |
honourable friend for Beckenham
spoke about settled funding and | 5:18:00 | 5:18:03 | |
spoke passionately about Bromley and
the efficiency of that council and | 5:18:03 | 5:18:08 | |
clearly they have a powerful
advocate in him. As do other | 5:18:08 | 5:18:14 | |
organisations such as our Armed
Forces have such a powerful advocate | 5:18:14 | 5:18:17 | |
in my honourable and gallant friend
for Beckenham. He is a powerful | 5:18:17 | 5:18:25 | |
advocate for his constituency and he
spoke about the efficient running of | 5:18:25 | 5:18:28 | |
his local government authority and
have no doubt the Department for | 5:18:28 | 5:18:32 | |
Communities and Local Government
will hear what he has said. The | 5:18:32 | 5:18:34 | |
honourable lady for Ealing Central
and acting spoke about HS2 and the | 5:18:34 | 5:18:42 | |
Park Royal area in her constituency.
I can say that she spoke clearly | 5:18:42 | 5:18:48 | |
about small businesses and their
value and I am sure she will want to | 5:18:48 | 5:18:54 | |
congratulate the government on the
back that the UK has been ranked | 5:18:54 | 5:18:56 | |
first for the first time in the
Forbes annual survey of the best | 5:18:56 | 5:19:00 | |
countries for business. But I
understand having looked into the | 5:19:00 | 5:19:04 | |
matter that she raised about
compensation for small businesses in | 5:19:04 | 5:19:08 | |
the area that under law the first
date for compensation would be the | 5:19:08 | 5:19:12 | |
10th of January 2018 and I
understand that is expected on time, | 5:19:12 | 5:19:17 | |
that is what I have been told.
Payments of up to £250,000 are | 5:19:17 | 5:19:24 | |
discretionary to help with the cash
flow and I have also been told that | 5:19:24 | 5:19:28 | |
the Minister for rail has written to
her and the letter was posted today. | 5:19:28 | 5:19:33 | |
I'm hoping she will receive it very
soon. My honourable friend for | 5:19:33 | 5:19:37 | |
Southend West spoke as he has done
before about the painful condition | 5:19:37 | 5:19:45 | |
of endometriosis and I know he will
continue to highlight that painful | 5:19:45 | 5:19:52 | |
condition which affects hundreds of
thousands of people around the world | 5:19:52 | 5:19:56 | |
and many here in the UK. He also
spoke about volunteering on C, an | 5:19:56 | 5:20:05 | |
organisation in his constituency
which looks after this advantage and | 5:20:05 | 5:20:08 | |
people -- on sea, and that he had
attended an event with a number of | 5:20:08 | 5:20:15 | |
centenarians. He still has a long
way to go before he is a member of | 5:20:15 | 5:20:18 | |
that particular club but I know how
well he looks after people of all | 5:20:18 | 5:20:22 | |
ages in his constituency. I know he
is still keen to see Southend | 5:20:22 | 5:20:28 | |
declared a city and he mentioned the
Royal wedding which of course I | 5:20:28 | 5:20:33 | |
would be remiss if I did not offer
congratulations to his Royal | 5:20:33 | 5:20:37 | |
Highness Prince Harry and wish him
well. As to whether Southend is a | 5:20:37 | 5:20:41 | |
city by that date, he will have to
consult other is than myself. The | 5:20:41 | 5:20:46 | |
honourable lady for West Ham, I was
very pleased to hear she had a | 5:20:46 | 5:20:51 | |
productive meeting with my right
honourable friend from the health | 5:20:51 | 5:20:57 | |
Department about the painful
condition with which I know she has | 5:20:57 | 5:21:01 | |
been passionately campaigning for so
long and she has support for all | 5:21:01 | 5:21:04 | |
quarters of this house on that
subject and I'm pleased the meeting | 5:21:04 | 5:21:07 | |
with the minister went well. She
also spoke about the fixed odds | 5:21:07 | 5:21:12 | |
betting terminals that are a feature
in today's day and age and she will | 5:21:12 | 5:21:20 | |
no doubt be pleased that
consultation has been launched by | 5:21:20 | 5:21:22 | |
the government on that issue. I know
she has focused also in her remarks | 5:21:22 | 5:21:29 | |
today about the depersonalisation
disorder that she knows an | 5:21:29 | 5:21:34 | |
individual who suffers from and it
is one where sometimes diagnosis is | 5:21:34 | 5:21:40 | |
very strong but she wishes to meet
the Department of Health on that and | 5:21:40 | 5:21:45 | |
I am sure we can arrange that
meeting. We will certainly do | 5:21:45 | 5:21:48 | |
everything we can if she writes to
me about that. My honourable friend | 5:21:48 | 5:21:55 | |
for Mid Worcestershire spoke about
volunteering in his constituency and | 5:21:55 | 5:22:03 | |
also about the surveillance we have
seen of intolerance in British | 5:22:03 | 5:22:08 | |
politics which he described, and I
think we would all agree, is not | 5:22:08 | 5:22:12 | |
acceptable. Most members, he said,
and I can confirm, get on very well | 5:22:12 | 5:22:15 | |
with each other from across the
house and are able to chat and | 5:22:15 | 5:22:19 | |
disagree professionally but perhaps
still able to get on well and | 5:22:19 | 5:22:23 | |
socialise. I would simply say that
everyone in this house would agree | 5:22:23 | 5:22:32 | |
that abuse and threatening
behaviour, insulting conduct, the | 5:22:32 | 5:22:38 | |
leaving of copper and outside of MPs
offices and the like is to be | 5:22:38 | 5:22:44 | |
deprecated in the strong as possible
terms -- coffins. We would all agree | 5:22:44 | 5:22:49 | |
with him about that. He said he is
proud of his party, the Conservative | 5:22:49 | 5:22:54 | |
Party, and can I say that the party
is proud of him. And the honourable | 5:22:54 | 5:23:00 | |
gentleman for Ilford South spoke
about those people within the | 5:23:00 | 5:23:09 | |
European Union and elsewhere around
the world who lose votes when they | 5:23:09 | 5:23:14 | |
have been living outside the UK,
their power to vote after 15 years. | 5:23:14 | 5:23:19 | |
I was pleased to hear that he is in
favour of reforming that. I do think | 5:23:19 | 5:23:23 | |
it was the Labour Party that reduced
the level from 20 years to 15 years | 5:23:23 | 5:23:30 | |
under a previous Labour government,
but I'm pleased he is speaking about | 5:23:30 | 5:23:33 | |
the right of UK citizens living in
EU countries and I have heard my | 5:23:33 | 5:23:38 | |
honourable friend behind me speaking
about the subject repeatedly. I | 5:23:38 | 5:23:41 | |
think it has been agreed that that
rule, the intention is to scrap it | 5:23:41 | 5:23:48 | |
before the next scheduled general
election in 2022. Mr Speaker, my | 5:23:48 | 5:23:53 | |
honourable friend from Stafford, I
would like to start by mentioning | 5:23:53 | 5:23:56 | |
that as far as he's concerned he can
claim a personal success in his | 5:23:56 | 5:24:03 | |
campaigning for the hospital in his
area which I know he has worked a | 5:24:03 | 5:24:08 | |
great deal on. He spoke about the
NHS and like all others he will be | 5:24:08 | 5:24:12 | |
so proud of the National Health
Service. I'm pleased to say that | 5:24:12 | 5:24:15 | |
according to be, or fund, it has
been rated the best amongst the 11 | 5:24:15 | 5:24:23 | |
developed countries -- according to
the Commonwealth fund. It is | 5:24:23 | 5:24:27 | |
something the NHS and all that stuff
can be proud of. As we all do, he | 5:24:27 | 5:24:32 | |
wants the best Brexit deal for the
country and no doubt he and many | 5:24:32 | 5:24:36 | |
others will join me in expressing
great confidence that the Prime | 5:24:36 | 5:24:40 | |
Minister will deliver that. But he
did speak is often on humanitarian | 5:24:40 | 5:24:50 | |
work and the 4 million displaced
people in the Congo and that is | 5:24:50 | 5:24:53 | |
something I know he will continue to
do. The honourable lady for | 5:24:53 | 5:24:57 | |
Edinburgh North and Leith made some
comments and allegations and no | 5:24:57 | 5:25:03 | |
doubt she will want to make them in
the proper place. Members of this | 5:25:03 | 5:25:07 | |
house are open to considerable
scrutiny and I invite her to declare | 5:25:07 | 5:25:13 | |
anything she may have Internet
information on that subject to the | 5:25:13 | 5:25:16 | |
appropriate authorities. As far as
the honourable lady for Kingston | 5:25:16 | 5:25:21 | |
upon Hull North is concerned, she
has been a passionate campaign on | 5:25:21 | 5:25:25 | |
the contaminated blood issue and she
is to be commended for her work on | 5:25:25 | 5:25:28 | |
that and she did say she was
grateful to the government because | 5:25:28 | 5:25:34 | |
the Prime Minister has agreed to
hold an enquiry, a public enquiry, | 5:25:34 | 5:25:38 | |
and there is more to be done and
then stand the written ministerial | 5:25:38 | 5:25:42 | |
statement to date indicated that it
would be a judge led inquiry and | 5:25:42 | 5:25:47 | |
there will be a further statement in
the New Year as far as the name of | 5:25:47 | 5:25:54 | |
the judge is concerned and the judge
chosen will also be part of | 5:25:54 | 5:25:58 | |
discussions about the fuller
composition of the inquiry. The | 5:25:58 | 5:26:04 | |
honourable gentleman for East Ham
spoke about a particular job centre | 5:26:04 | 5:26:11 | |
issue in his constituency which was
certainly concerning to hear about | 5:26:11 | 5:26:15 | |
and I would suggest that if he has
not already done so, I suspect he | 5:26:15 | 5:26:19 | |
has, but he should read it with the
relevant minister at the Department | 5:26:19 | 5:26:23 | |
for Work and Pensions because he
made a powerful case. The honourable | 5:26:23 | 5:26:26 | |
lady for Mitcham and Morden, Her
Majesty's government is dedicating | 5:26:26 | 5:26:35 | |
over £1 billion to 2020 to tackling
homelessness and rough sleeping as | 5:26:35 | 5:26:40 | |
well as supporting the Homelessness
Reduction Act of my honourable | 5:26:40 | 5:26:44 | |
friend and if I may, I'm running out
of time, I would say that 1.1 | 5:26:44 | 5:26:49 | |
million additional homes have been
delivered since 2010, over 357,000 | 5:26:49 | 5:26:55 | |
affordable homes, 217,000 last year,
the highest but all but one of the | 5:26:55 | 5:26:59 | |
last 30 years so there is more work
to do and there always is that | 5:26:59 | 5:27:03 | |
house-building is darts have
increased by more than three | 5:27:03 | 5:27:08 | |
quarters since to does not and over
432,000 households have been helped | 5:27:08 | 5:27:12 | |
into home ownership through
government schemes like help to buy | 5:27:12 | 5:27:15 | |
and right to buy. We finished with
the honourable gentleman. Inferred. | 5:27:15 | 5:27:19 | |
He spoke of the true meaning of
Christmas and I remember him doing | 5:27:19 | 5:27:25 | |
so at last at this time and can I
thank him and congratulate him for | 5:27:25 | 5:27:28 | |
the work he does. He spoke
passionately about volunteers and | 5:27:28 | 5:27:34 | |
the giving mentality which is a big
I know he himself has and he spoke | 5:27:34 | 5:27:38 | |
of the wonderful people of Northern
Ireland and his constituency and I | 5:27:38 | 5:27:41 | |
can absolutely agree with him about
but not least because I should | 5:27:41 | 5:27:44 | |
declare an interest because my
mother was born there so I know well | 5:27:44 | 5:27:47 | |
about that. He is a doughty champion
in this place for the disadvantaged | 5:27:47 | 5:27:52 | |
and the dispossessed around the
world. And at this time of year he | 5:27:52 | 5:27:57 | |
is a powerful advocate for those
good causes. He spoke of course is | 5:27:57 | 5:28:03 | |
the champion of the backbenchers and
I know they would certainly agree, | 5:28:03 | 5:28:10 | |
and can I take this opportunity to
thank U, Mr Speaker, to thank all of | 5:28:10 | 5:28:15 | |
the Deputy speakers and the staff of
this house for the work they do all | 5:28:15 | 5:28:19 | |
year round, and also to thank those
not only to protect this house in | 5:28:19 | 5:28:27 | |
its security and serve it in a
myriad of different ways, but also | 5:28:27 | 5:28:30 | |
those who protect this country.
Whether it be here in the United | 5:28:30 | 5:28:34 | |
Kingdom or around the world, Her
Majesty's Armed Forces serving | 5:28:34 | 5:28:40 | |
around the world, many of whom will
not be with their families over the | 5:28:40 | 5:28:43 | |
festive period. Can I take this
opportunity from the dispatch box to | 5:28:43 | 5:28:47 | |
thank them for their service to this
country and of course to thank | 5:28:47 | 5:28:52 | |
everyone here and wish them all a
very Merry Christmas. I thank the | 5:28:52 | 5:28:58 | |
deputy leader of the house, the
shadow deputy leader, all colleagues | 5:28:58 | 5:29:01 | |
the sobbing for their speeches and
in particular for the expressions of | 5:29:01 | 5:29:05 | |
gratitude -- and all colleagues this
afternoon. And above all to all | 5:29:05 | 5:29:11 | |
those who serve as in various
capacities with greater ability and | 5:29:11 | 5:29:16 | |
commitment in this house. The
question is that this house has | 5:29:16 | 5:29:20 | |
considered matters to be raised
before the forthcoming adjournment. | 5:29:20 | 5:29:28 | |
I think the ayes have it, the ayes
have it. We come now to the | 5:29:28 | 5:29:33 | |
adjournment, the whip to move. I beg
to move that the houses now | 5:29:33 | 5:29:37 | |
adjourned. The question is that the
house do now adjourned. Thank you, | 5:29:37 | 5:29:44 | |
Mr Speaker. In spite of the fact
this is the last business before the | 5:29:44 | 5:29:51 | |
recess and indeed the last business
this year, it is still an issue of | 5:29:51 | 5:29:55 | |
great seriousness and grave concern
to my constituents and to many who | 5:29:55 | 5:30:02 | |
have been injured or killed whilst
cycling on our roads in this | 5:30:02 | 5:30:06 | |
country. Mr Speaker, on the 12th of
December last year, 58-year-old Ian | 5:30:06 | 5:30:12 | |
Winter Byrne was cycling to work at
7:30am and as he did every day. He | 5:30:12 | 5:30:17 | |
was a keen and regular cyclist and
as usual he was wearing his | 5:30:17 | 5:30:23 | |
cyclist's high visibility jacket and
all his bike lights were on. He | 5:30:23 | 5:30:26 | |
always wore a cycling helmet. As he
was passing the junction of | 5:30:26 | 5:30:31 | |
Whittaker claim on the ASICS want to
ring road in Holton in Leeds, a | 5:30:31 | 5:30:37 | |
silver Skoda Sabbir was signalling
to turn right but instead of waiting | 5:30:37 | 5:30:43 | |
for him to cycle past the driver, he
went straight into him, knocking him | 5:30:43 | 5:30:47 | |
off his bike and fatally injuring
him. | 5:30:47 | 5:30:53 | |
The driver claimed she did not see
him, and after ten days in a coma, | 5:30:54 | 5:30:59 | |
he died from his injuries on
December 22. Mr Speaker, cyclist | 5:30:59 | 5:31:06 | |
Charlie Alistair Mann was famously
sentenced to 18 months in prison | 5:31:06 | 5:31:10 | |
recently for fatally injuring a
pedestrian, one of two such fatal | 5:31:10 | 5:31:16 | |
accidents last year, and yet many
more cyclists have been killed and | 5:31:16 | 5:31:21 | |
badly injured by cars in that same
period. His case, justifiably, had | 5:31:21 | 5:31:28 | |
plenty of media coverage, but
shocking deaths such as that of my | 5:31:28 | 5:31:33 | |
constituent, scarcely receive any.
And public anger towards cyclists is | 5:31:33 | 5:31:37 | |
now at an all-time high. The
51-year-old driver that killed Ian | 5:31:37 | 5:31:44 | |
was sentenced on October 20 by Leeds
Magistrates' Court to causing death | 5:31:44 | 5:31:48 | |
by careless driving. And given a
four-month suspended prison sentence | 5:31:48 | 5:31:53 | |
for two years, a £200 fine... Of
course. I congratulate my honourable | 5:31:53 | 5:32:02 | |
friend for bringing this debate
today, as I co-chair the All Party | 5:32:02 | 5:32:07 | |
Parliamentary Group on Iran. Could I
commend one of the recommendations | 5:32:07 | 5:32:09 | |
in our report on justice for
cyclists, where we asked the | 5:32:09 | 5:32:15 | |
government to address the confusion
and overlap between the terms | 5:32:15 | 5:32:20 | |
"Careless" and "Dangerous tribe in"
in these cases? Can I thank my | 5:32:20 | 5:32:27 | |
honourable friend for her
intervention and I will be dealing | 5:32:27 | 5:32:29 | |
with the issue of careless driving
versus dangerous driving and the | 5:32:29 | 5:32:33 | |
different penalties and making
reference to the all party is | 5:32:33 | 5:32:37 | |
cycling group which my honourable
friend ably chairs, and which I am | 5:32:37 | 5:32:41 | |
currently the treasurer of. I was
telling members that the driver that | 5:32:41 | 5:32:46 | |
killed Ian was sentenced to a four
month suspended prison sentence for | 5:32:46 | 5:32:52 | |
two years, a £200 fine, 200 hours of
community service and a two year | 5:32:52 | 5:32:57 | |
driving ban. She had previously had
a licence suspended for 14 months | 5:32:57 | 5:33:02 | |
for drink-driving. One of the most
shocking aspects of this tragic | 5:33:02 | 5:33:09 | |
case, apart from the loss of a much
loved husband, father and teacher, | 5:33:09 | 5:33:15 | |
is the way in which the family have
been treated by the various | 5:33:15 | 5:33:19 | |
authorities involved in dealing with
this terrible, totally avoidable | 5:33:19 | 5:33:23 | |
loss of such a valuable life. Ian
Winter beurre noisette at 7:28am on | 5:33:23 | 5:33:28 | |
that day but the West Yorkshire
Police crash investigation team did | 5:33:28 | 5:33:34 | |
not arrive at the scene for over an
hour. The police and the CPS | 5:33:34 | 5:33:39 | |
believed that the driver did not
adequately defrost her car | 5:33:39 | 5:33:43 | |
windscreen before setting off from
her home near by, and there was | 5:33:43 | 5:33:48 | |
circumstantial evidence to support
this, as her windscreen wipers and | 5:33:48 | 5:33:51 | |
the heating in her car were on full
power, in spite of the fact that it | 5:33:51 | 5:33:57 | |
was a dry day. However, because the
crash investigation team took so | 5:33:57 | 5:34:00 | |
long to drive -- to arrive, they
could not confirm the state of the | 5:34:00 | 5:34:07 | |
in -- windscreen at the time of the
accident. Had they arrived sooner | 5:34:07 | 5:34:11 | |
they could have been proof and the
charge that the driver faced would | 5:34:11 | 5:34:15 | |
have been causing death by dangerous
driving, a charge which carries a | 5:34:15 | 5:34:19 | |
considerably higher sentence on
conviction than the lesser charge of | 5:34:19 | 5:34:23 | |
death by careless driving. There is
only one crash team for the whole of | 5:34:23 | 5:34:29 | |
West Yorkshire, an area with a
population of 2.3 million. The | 5:34:29 | 5:34:34 | |
family have asked a number of
pertinent questions, such as why is | 5:34:34 | 5:34:39 | |
there only one crash team for such a
large area, how many people are in | 5:34:39 | 5:34:44 | |
that team, how many crash
investigations do they investigate | 5:34:44 | 5:34:47 | |
each week, and where is the team
based? It took more than three hours | 5:34:47 | 5:34:52 | |
for the police to contact the widow
that day to inform our about the | 5:34:52 | 5:34:56 | |
collision. When she asked why it had
taken so long the answer was that | 5:34:56 | 5:34:59 | |
the crash team were too busy
securing the crash site and | 5:34:59 | 5:35:04 | |
collecting evidence, and that there
were not enough staff to contact her | 5:35:04 | 5:35:07 | |
earlier. As members may imagine,
this was extremely traumatic, and | 5:35:07 | 5:35:13 | |
her family -- for her and her family
and added to the trauma they | 5:35:13 | 5:35:20 | |
experienced upon hearing such
terrible news. But it gets worse. | 5:35:20 | 5:35:25 | |
When the family arrived at hospital
they spent a number of hours in the | 5:35:25 | 5:35:28 | |
resuscitation unit, where no staff
were available to keep them updated. | 5:35:28 | 5:35:35 | |
Ian was still wearing his cycling
clothes and it was to be another 16 | 5:35:35 | 5:35:38 | |
hours before any member of staff
gave the family information about | 5:35:38 | 5:35:43 | |
the extent of his injuries, the
prognosis, or the next steps in his | 5:35:43 | 5:35:47 | |
treatment. Let me move on to the
role of the coroners service. | 5:35:47 | 5:35:54 | |
Although Ian died on the 22nd of
December, one year ago tomorrow, it | 5:35:54 | 5:35:59 | |
took until January the 10th to
obtain a death certificate. This was | 5:35:59 | 5:36:05 | |
apparently because of a backlog over
the Christmas and New Year holidays | 5:36:05 | 5:36:08 | |
but it meant that his body had to be
kept at the Leeds General | 5:36:08 | 5:36:14 | |
Infirmary's mortuary for two weeks
before a funeral could take place. | 5:36:14 | 5:36:18 | |
As members may imagine, this added
considerably to the stress and | 5:36:18 | 5:36:22 | |
trauma suffered by the family.
Presumably there are still people | 5:36:22 | 5:36:27 | |
who die from unknown causes
accidents over holiday periods. | 5:36:27 | 5:36:30 | |
Although everyone deserves holidays
and time off, surely it is important | 5:36:30 | 5:36:35 | |
that the coroners service does not
close, except maybe on Christmas Day | 5:36:35 | 5:36:38 | |
itself. The Crown Prosecution
Service told the family that the | 5:36:38 | 5:36:43 | |
case against the driver who killed
Ian would be heard in the Crown | 5:36:43 | 5:36:48 | |
Court. It was that serious. And that
they should not attend the | 5:36:48 | 5:36:53 | |
Magistrate court's hearing, which
would be a formality and would only | 5:36:53 | 5:36:57 | |
last a few minutes. However, in the
event, the driver was convicted | 5:36:57 | 5:37:04 | |
after two one hour sessions by the
Magistrates' Court, and no support | 5:37:04 | 5:37:08 | |
whatsoever was given to the family.
No help was even offered to the | 5:37:08 | 5:37:12 | |
family in the preparation of their
victim statements, which of course | 5:37:12 | 5:37:16 | |
they had little knowledge of how to
prepare and no previous experience | 5:37:16 | 5:37:19 | |
of writing. This further added to
the anxiety felt by the close family | 5:37:19 | 5:37:25 | |
and made them lose faith in the
whole criminal justice system. One | 5:37:25 | 5:37:30 | |
of the pertinent questions asked by
Ian's daughter, my constituent, who | 5:37:30 | 5:37:35 | |
is here today, when she came to see
me about her father's death and her | 5:37:35 | 5:37:39 | |
family's treatment by various
authorities was, why is the most | 5:37:39 | 5:37:45 | |
senior CPS lawyer in West Yorkshire
only employed for two days per week? | 5:37:45 | 5:37:49 | |
After the shock of the brief court
case and what the family feels is | 5:37:49 | 5:37:54 | |
the inadequate sentence for a driver
who had previously been given a 14 | 5:37:54 | 5:37:58 | |
month driving ban after a conviction
for drink-driving, the family was | 5:37:58 | 5:38:02 | |
told by police that the coroner
would now close the inquest because | 5:38:02 | 5:38:07 | |
there had been a criminal
conviction. A short while later, the | 5:38:07 | 5:38:11 | |
coroner phoned Georgina, Ian's
widow, to tell her there would still | 5:38:11 | 5:38:14 | |
be an inquest after all, and a
number of witnesses would attend the | 5:38:14 | 5:38:18 | |
inquest. As we can imagine, this
came as a huge shock to the family | 5:38:18 | 5:38:23 | |
and Alex, Ian's daughter, rang West
Yorkshire Victim Support to ask what | 5:38:23 | 5:38:29 | |
the family should expect from the
hearing, only to be told that they | 5:38:29 | 5:38:32 | |
knew nothing about the hearing. The
next day, the Coroner's Office rang | 5:38:32 | 5:38:37 | |
Georgina to tell her that there had
been "A mix-up" and there would not | 5:38:37 | 5:38:42 | |
be an inquest after all. No apology
has ever been offered for the | 5:38:42 | 5:38:45 | |
further upset caused to the family
by the so-called mix-up. Mr Speaker, | 5:38:45 | 5:38:50 | |
many members of this House will know
I am also a keen cyclist, because I | 5:38:50 | 5:38:54 | |
pester them every summer to donate
to my annual charity bike ride and I | 5:38:54 | 5:38:58 | |
can often be seen arriving at the
Palace of Westminster in my hideous | 5:38:58 | 5:39:01 | |
brightly coloured lycra on my Carbon
racing bike. And you, Mr Speaker, | 5:39:01 | 5:39:08 | |
have generously seen me off on some
of my cycling jaunts. I am an | 5:39:08 | 5:39:12 | |
officer of the all-party is cycling
group, which published a report last | 5:39:12 | 5:39:16 | |
July into cycling and the justice
system. We took a huge amount of | 5:39:16 | 5:39:22 | |
evidence from cycling groups,
lawyers, the police, the Crown | 5:39:22 | 5:39:26 | |
Prosecution Service, Transport for
London, local authorities and many | 5:39:26 | 5:39:28 | |
others. Amongst our conclusions and
recommendations were, and I'm | 5:39:28 | 5:39:34 | |
quoting some but not all, that the
police must ensure a higher standard | 5:39:34 | 5:39:39 | |
of investigation is maintained in
all cases where serious injury has | 5:39:39 | 5:39:44 | |
resulted. This includes eyesight
testing, which I need, mobile phone | 5:39:44 | 5:39:52 | |
records, assessment of speed, drink
and drug driving. We received many | 5:39:52 | 5:39:57 | |
examples of police failing to
investigate properly, or even to | 5:39:57 | 5:40:00 | |
interview victims or witnesses. Too
often we can investigations have | 5:40:00 | 5:40:05 | |
undermined subsequent cases. I hope
maybe the Minister will comment on | 5:40:05 | 5:40:10 | |
this. We also recommended that all
police forces should ensure that | 5:40:10 | 5:40:15 | |
evidence of common offences
submitted by cyclists or other | 5:40:15 | 5:40:19 | |
witnesses, using bike or person
mounted cameras or smartphones, is | 5:40:19 | 5:40:23 | |
put to use and not ignored. So often
these bits of evidence are ignored. | 5:40:23 | 5:40:30 | |
The confidence of cyclists that
their safety is a priority of the | 5:40:30 | 5:40:33 | |
police will be undermined if this
evidence is dismissed and no action | 5:40:33 | 5:40:36 | |
is taken. In some cases, a written
warning may be enough to change bad | 5:40:36 | 5:40:43 | |
behaviour. The length of time
required by the police to serve a | 5:40:43 | 5:40:47 | |
notice of intended prosecution for a
road traffic offence is currently | 5:40:47 | 5:40:50 | |
just 14 days, and must be extended.
That was one of our strong | 5:40:50 | 5:40:55 | |
recommendations. This period, we
believe, is too short to enable many | 5:40:55 | 5:41:00 | |
cases to be adequately processed,
and in some cases it may enable | 5:41:00 | 5:41:04 | |
offenders to escape justice
altogether. We also said there was | 5:41:04 | 5:41:09 | |
confusion and overlap, which is
where my honourable friend comes in, | 5:41:09 | 5:41:14 | |
confusion and overlap between
"Careless" and dangerous driving, | 5:41:14 | 5:41:18 | |
which means often bad driving does
not receive the level of punishment | 5:41:18 | 5:41:22 | |
that the public feel it should. New
offences introduced over the last | 5:41:22 | 5:41:27 | |
few years have started to plug some
of the gaps in the legislation, but | 5:41:27 | 5:41:32 | |
many problems remain, particularly
where cyclists are the victims. The | 5:41:32 | 5:41:37 | |
Ministry of Justice, we believe,
should examine in more detail how | 5:41:37 | 5:41:40 | |
these offences are being used,
including the penalties available | 5:41:40 | 5:41:43 | |
for offences of careless and
dangerous driving. The police and | 5:41:43 | 5:41:49 | |
the Crown Prosecution Service should
ensure that victims and bereaved | 5:41:49 | 5:41:53 | |
families are always kept adequately
informed throughout the process of | 5:41:53 | 5:41:56 | |
deciding charges. While in many
cases this is done, we have heard of | 5:41:56 | 5:42:02 | |
victims being ignored and only
informed at a much later date that | 5:42:02 | 5:42:06 | |
cases have been dropped, or guilty
pleas for lesser offences accepted. | 5:42:06 | 5:42:12 | |
Thank you to my honourable friend.
I'm a member of the justice select | 5:42:12 | 5:42:16 | |
committee and one of the issues we
hear of that does not just apply in | 5:42:16 | 5:42:19 | |
cases like this but is the cutbacks
in court services in the Ministry of | 5:42:19 | 5:42:25 | |
Justice which means there are fewer
people to do these admin to tasks | 5:42:25 | 5:42:30 | |
but very important tasks. In too
many occasions justice is not being | 5:42:30 | 5:42:36 | |
served either to victims or families
because of these admin is to | 5:42:36 | 5:42:41 | |
failures, because they're literally
are the people to make the kind of | 5:42:41 | 5:42:45 | |
contact that my honourable friend
points out is so important in times | 5:42:45 | 5:42:48 | |
like this thank you for a helpful
intervention. The first part of my | 5:42:48 | 5:43:00 | |
speech showed, clearly, from my
discussions with the family, that | 5:43:00 | 5:43:03 | |
they are such a family. They had an
appallingly bad service from the | 5:43:03 | 5:43:08 | |
CPS. They were not kept informed at
all, not given any assistance, there | 5:43:08 | 5:43:15 | |
was no family support whatsoever.
Whether that is cutbacks or bad | 5:43:15 | 5:43:19 | |
organisation and training, I don't
know. The honourable lady probably | 5:43:19 | 5:43:23 | |
knows more than I do, as a member of
the justice select committee, but I | 5:43:23 | 5:43:27 | |
leave the Minister to respond. The
final recommendation I want to draw | 5:43:27 | 5:43:33 | |
the attention of the House two is
that the number and length of | 5:43:33 | 5:43:38 | |
driving bans appears to have
declined, with a 62% fall in driver | 5:43:38 | 5:43:42 | |
disqualifications over the last ten
years, double the fall in | 5:43:42 | 5:43:47 | |
convictions for driving offences.
Furthermore, large numbers of | 5:43:47 | 5:43:49 | |
drivers are escaping
disqualification upon reaching 12 | 5:43:49 | 5:43:53 | |
points on their licence or more. The
Ministry of Justice should examine | 5:43:53 | 5:43:58 | |
the reasons behind the decline in
the use of the penalty of | 5:43:58 | 5:44:02 | |
disqualification, and in particular
the effect of the so-called | 5:44:02 | 5:44:05 | |
exceptional hardship scheme. I know
that our report, published seven | 5:44:05 | 5:44:11 | |
months after Ian Ward is killed,
will ring many bells in the minds of | 5:44:11 | 5:44:15 | |
his family, who still grieve for him
every day. The family would also | 5:44:15 | 5:44:20 | |
like answers to specific questions,
notwithstanding the recommendations | 5:44:20 | 5:44:24 | |
I have read out, so could the
Minister answer the following: What | 5:44:24 | 5:44:27 | |
is the current status of the review
of guidelines for causing death by | 5:44:27 | 5:44:33 | |
careless driving? Is there even a
review being carried out? Why do | 5:44:33 | 5:44:37 | |
drivers who have caused death not
face mandatory custodial sentences? | 5:44:37 | 5:44:42 | |
How many complaints does the
Ministry of Justice receive about | 5:44:42 | 5:44:46 | |
the coroners service every year?
What training is given to the | 5:44:46 | 5:44:50 | |
coroners service staff? Who holds
the coroners service to account? Is | 5:44:50 | 5:44:56 | |
it the Ministry of Justice, or is it
any form of local accountability? | 5:44:56 | 5:45:00 | |
And when was the last review of the
coroners service, and what were its | 5:45:00 | 5:45:04 | |
findings? The final question the
family want to know about is when | 5:45:04 | 5:45:11 | |
will the coroners service website be
improved, in order to offer more and | 5:45:11 | 5:45:16 | |
better information to grieving and
unsupported families? That seems a | 5:45:16 | 5:45:23 | |
simple reform. In conclusion, if we
truly care about our environment and | 5:45:23 | 5:45:28 | |
about the growing public health
crisis, surely we must do far more | 5:45:28 | 5:45:33 | |
touring carriage cycling, both as a
healthy activity and as a way of | 5:45:33 | 5:45:37 | |
reducing carbon emissions and
congestion. But tragedies like the | 5:45:37 | 5:45:43 | |
death of this cyclist do nothing but
discourage the public from cycling. | 5:45:43 | 5:45:49 | |
We need to make cycling easier and
much, much safer, and part of that | 5:45:49 | 5:45:54 | |
task is to ensure that when terrible
fatal accidents take place, the | 5:45:54 | 5:45:59 | |
appropriate administration of
justice can be relied upon. We all | 5:45:59 | 5:46:03 | |
need the assurance that cycling is a
safe activity, and a good way to | 5:46:03 | 5:46:09 | |
move around towns and cities for
everyone who is capable of using a | 5:46:09 | 5:46:12 | |
bike. Meaningful answers to, and
action from the family's pertinent | 5:46:12 | 5:46:20 | |
questions, born out of tragedy and
grief, would be a good start. | 5:46:20 | 5:46:28 | |
Thank you Mr Speaker and may I begin
by thanking you for your stewardship | 5:46:28 | 5:46:32 | |
over the last year and wish you a
restful Christmas with your family | 5:46:32 | 5:46:36 | |
and can I also congratulate the
honourable member for Leeds North | 5:46:36 | 5:46:41 | |
East for securing today's debate. It
is fishing we finished debating such | 5:46:41 | 5:46:47 | |
an important issue and that it is
the honourable member who is leaving | 5:46:47 | 5:46:50 | |
it in his doughty way, passionately
defending and champion his | 5:46:50 | 5:46:53 | |
constituents who have raised an
issue not just of local concern but | 5:46:53 | 5:46:57 | |
national importance. Those
colleagues who have dealt with | 5:46:57 | 5:47:03 | |
tragic cases like this in their own
constituencies know that whether it | 5:47:03 | 5:47:07 | |
is careless or dangerous driving it
can ruin lives and devastate | 5:47:07 | 5:47:10 | |
families. Numerous colleagues from
across the house have raised their | 5:47:10 | 5:47:14 | |
cases with me as he has done in a
very passionate and tenacious way | 5:47:14 | 5:47:18 | |
and of course with my predecessors
covering this portfolio at the | 5:47:18 | 5:47:23 | |
Ministry of Justice. I should say at
the outset by way of context that | 5:47:23 | 5:47:27 | |
road deaths in Britain have been
reducing over the past 30 years as a | 5:47:27 | 5:47:30 | |
result of a range of factors
including safer infrastructure, new | 5:47:30 | 5:47:35 | |
vehicle technologies, tougher law
enforcement, shifting social | 5:47:35 | 5:47:39 | |
attitudes and I think there has been
a ground shift in the way people | 5:47:39 | 5:47:42 | |
think about drink-driving, and also
we ought to again pay tribute to our | 5:47:42 | 5:47:49 | |
precious NHS which is providing far
better trauma care ban was the case | 5:47:49 | 5:47:54 | |
when I was first passing my highway
code. As a result, casualty figures | 5:47:54 | 5:47:59 | |
show a 5% fall from last year alone
however it is still the case that | 5:47:59 | 5:48:04 | |
over 27,000 people died or were
seriously injured on our roads last | 5:48:04 | 5:48:08 | |
year. Whilst many of these are
tragic accidents, too many involve | 5:48:08 | 5:48:13 | |
criminal behaviour and whether it is
classified as dangerous or careless | 5:48:13 | 5:48:19 | |
driving, or in some cases just
failing to stop at the scene so | 5:48:19 | 5:48:25 | |
there is proper accountability. And
of course behind every statistic, | 5:48:25 | 5:48:32 | |
each of those 27,000 cases represent
an individual story, a life | 5:48:32 | 5:48:38 | |
devastated, a family devastated,
personal suffering and family | 5:48:38 | 5:48:40 | |
trauma. The honourable member for
Leeds North East raises one of those | 5:48:40 | 5:48:45 | |
tragic cases here today which is the
death of his constituent Ian | 5:48:45 | 5:48:56 | |
Winterburn. I believe some of the
family are here today and I would | 5:48:56 | 5:49:01 | |
want to extend my personal
condolences and deepest sympathies | 5:49:01 | 5:49:05 | |
to them. Particularly at this
delicate time as we approach | 5:49:05 | 5:49:09 | |
Christmas. Mr Winterburn was
involved in a road traffic incident | 5:49:09 | 5:49:12 | |
just over a year ago and tragically
died of his injuries. As the | 5:49:12 | 5:49:19 | |
honourable member will know, as
Justice Minister I cannot comment on | 5:49:19 | 5:49:24 | |
either the judicial treatment of an
individual case or indeed the | 5:49:24 | 5:49:29 | |
decision on prosecution or the
charges brought by the CPS, those | 5:49:29 | 5:49:33 | |
matters are dealt with independently
which is of course right that | 5:49:33 | 5:49:38 | |
politicians should not interfere
with judicial matters. Some of the | 5:49:38 | 5:49:43 | |
operational police matters, he will
know, for his local constabulary or | 5:49:43 | 5:49:48 | |
Police and Crime Commissioners but
with that in mind he has raised a | 5:49:48 | 5:49:50 | |
large number of questions I want to
focus on as many as I can in the | 5:49:50 | 5:49:54 | |
time available. I can talk, as he
knows, in general terms about what | 5:49:54 | 5:49:58 | |
the government is doing to ensure
the courts have adequate powers to | 5:49:58 | 5:50:01 | |
deal with the most serious offences
committed in our roads that result | 5:50:01 | 5:50:04 | |
in either death or injury. As I
think he will know, on the 16th of | 5:50:04 | 5:50:11 | |
October the government published its
response to the consultation on | 5:50:11 | 5:50:14 | |
driving offences and penalties
relating to causing death and | 5:50:14 | 5:50:18 | |
serious injury. This concentrated on
the most serious driving offences, | 5:50:18 | 5:50:22 | |
those that result in death or very
serious injury. It considered a | 5:50:22 | 5:50:26 | |
whole range of concerns that had
been raised over recent years by | 5:50:26 | 5:50:31 | |
victims of these crimes and their
families by other members of the | 5:50:31 | 5:50:34 | |
public whether individually or as
signatories to petitions. | 5:50:34 | 5:50:41 | |
Parliamentarians raised issues both
in debate on the heart of their | 5:50:41 | 5:50:44 | |
constituents as well. The
consultation closed earlier this | 5:50:44 | 5:50:48 | |
year and we received 9000 responses.
I think that is close to if not a | 5:50:48 | 5:50:53 | |
record which shows how widespread
the public interest is and the | 5:50:53 | 5:50:56 | |
concern is on this very pertinent
area of law. It is one of those | 5:50:56 | 5:51:00 | |
areas which is not Esoterique, it
affects people's daily lives. We | 5:51:00 | 5:51:05 | |
considered all of the responses in
detail and all of the submissions | 5:51:05 | 5:51:09 | |
before publishing the response. In
that response we distilled those | 5:51:09 | 5:51:14 | |
views and considered them and came
forward with three specific changes | 5:51:14 | 5:51:17 | |
to the law, all of which I should
save received overwhelming support | 5:51:17 | 5:51:21 | |
in the consultation and I hope the
honourable member will welcome them. | 5:51:21 | 5:51:25 | |
I'm always careful about this given
the suffering and the sense in which | 5:51:25 | 5:51:30 | |
justice can only really go a small
part of the way but I hope the | 5:51:30 | 5:51:34 | |
victims and the families find some
solace in the measures we are able | 5:51:34 | 5:51:37 | |
to take and that the public see a
stronger sense of justice in what we | 5:51:37 | 5:51:41 | |
are about to do. First we propose to
give the cause additional powers to | 5:51:41 | 5:51:45 | |
deal with the most serious cases
where life is lost and we will | 5:51:45 | 5:51:49 | |
propose to increase the maximum
penalty for causing death by | 5:51:49 | 5:51:51 | |
dangerous driving from the current
14 years to life imprisonment and | 5:51:51 | 5:51:56 | |
that means that in the most serious
cases, for example where an offender | 5:51:56 | 5:52:00 | |
as a previous conviction for serious
crimes, where the behaviour is | 5:52:00 | 5:52:05 | |
particularly dangerous or culpable,
or there may be multiple victims, | 5:52:05 | 5:52:08 | |
offenders could face depending on
the judicial determination a maximum | 5:52:08 | 5:52:11 | |
life sentence. We also propose to
raise the maximum penalty for | 5:52:11 | 5:52:18 | |
causing death by careless driving
whilst under the influence of drink | 5:52:18 | 5:52:21 | |
or drugs from 14 years to life
imprisonment. Although the standard | 5:52:21 | 5:52:25 | |
of driving in those cases, the
latter category, may not amount to | 5:52:25 | 5:52:30 | |
dangerous driving per se, we
consider that if you combine it with | 5:52:30 | 5:52:33 | |
the decision to get behind the wheel
under the influence of either drink | 5:52:33 | 5:52:37 | |
or drugs, the overall seriousness of
the offence should be considered the | 5:52:37 | 5:52:41 | |
same as the dangerous driving and
the penalties should quit the same. | 5:52:41 | 5:52:45 | |
We also proposed to close a
different gap in the law. Currently | 5:52:45 | 5:52:49 | |
the maximum penalty for careless
driving is a fine and I think not | 5:52:49 | 5:52:53 | |
least given some of the anguish that
the honourable member has reflected | 5:52:53 | 5:52:59 | |
in his powerful speech, I think it
is time to consider whether that is | 5:52:59 | 5:53:02 | |
good enough. The penalty of a fine
is a case for all careless driving, | 5:53:02 | 5:53:09 | |
whether it result in death or not,
so even if the driver injures | 5:53:09 | 5:53:13 | |
another road user, cyclist or
passenger and even if the incident | 5:53:13 | 5:53:18 | |
with the victim being left with a
very serious debilitating or | 5:53:18 | 5:53:21 | |
permanent injury, the court can only
impose a fine and it seems clear we | 5:53:21 | 5:53:27 | |
need the Lord to provide a stronger
response. We propose to create a new | 5:53:27 | 5:53:32 | |
offence of causing serious injury by
careless driving and that will have | 5:53:32 | 5:53:35 | |
a custodial penalty to sit alongside
the existing offence of causing | 5:53:35 | 5:53:40 | |
serious injury by dangerous driving.
Again, this was supported by those | 5:53:40 | 5:53:45 | |
who responded to the consultation
earlier this year. We propose to | 5:53:45 | 5:53:50 | |
bring forward those proposals for
reform as soon as Parliament to time | 5:53:50 | 5:53:53 | |
allows. The government is determined
to clamp down on all dangerous, | 5:53:53 | 5:54:00 | |
careless and reckless criminal
behaviour that takes place on our | 5:54:00 | 5:54:02 | |
roads and it is right that any
changes to legislation should take | 5:54:02 | 5:54:06 | |
account of all of the government's
wider proposals for safer roads and | 5:54:06 | 5:54:11 | |
he talked a little bit about cycling
in the context for it and we want to | 5:54:11 | 5:54:16 | |
make sure we have a consistent
sentencing framework for those who | 5:54:16 | 5:54:20 | |
kill or cause serious injury on the
road and we intend to cooperate with | 5:54:20 | 5:54:23 | |
the changes I have outlined along
with those that emerged from the | 5:54:23 | 5:54:28 | |
review cycling safety which I'm sure
they will commend and welcome and | 5:54:28 | 5:54:33 | |
that was of course announced by the
Transport Secretary in September. In | 5:54:33 | 5:54:39 | |
the time available want to touch on
some of the wider points that the | 5:54:39 | 5:54:42 | |
honourable gentleman as mentioned in
his speech. He asked about the | 5:54:42 | 5:54:49 | |
sentencing council. It is obviously
independent and responsible for | 5:54:49 | 5:54:53 | |
issuing and keeping guidelines under
review. Review the guidelines for | 5:54:53 | 5:54:57 | |
motoring offences involving death is
on the council's workplan. It has | 5:54:57 | 5:55:02 | |
been postponed pending government
consultation and any changes to law | 5:55:02 | 5:55:05 | |
that flow from that and it is of
course sensible that a guideline | 5:55:05 | 5:55:09 | |
should reflect the changes to the
law. There is no point having a | 5:55:09 | 5:55:14 | |
review of the guide that if the law
is about to change and a new draft | 5:55:14 | 5:55:17 | |
guideline will be subject to full
public consultation in due course. I | 5:55:17 | 5:55:23 | |
think the honourable gentleman also
asked about the distinction between | 5:55:23 | 5:55:26 | |
careless and dangerous driving and I
know this has been looked at. I will | 5:55:26 | 5:55:32 | |
try to address that in times. The
law set out an objective test as it | 5:55:32 | 5:55:36 | |
stands designed to compare the
driving in the specific | 5:55:36 | 5:55:40 | |
circumstances of the case against
what would be expected of a | 5:55:40 | 5:55:44 | |
notionally careful and competent
driver and what amounts to dangerous | 5:55:44 | 5:55:49 | |
driving is determined not as is more
normal in the criminal law by | 5:55:49 | 5:55:52 | |
considering the driver's state of
mind or intentions which in the | 5:55:52 | 5:55:55 | |
context of driving is often quite
difficult to gauge or ascertain but | 5:55:55 | 5:56:00 | |
by examining the nature of the
driving itself and in general terms | 5:56:00 | 5:56:03 | |
if the court considers the driving
to fall below the standard it would | 5:56:03 | 5:56:08 | |
be obvious to a competent and
careful driver that the manner of | 5:56:08 | 5:56:12 | |
dry that was danger inks then the
court will find it to have been | 5:56:12 | 5:56:16 | |
dangerous driving. -- was dangerous.
Which examined the option of a | 5:56:16 | 5:56:21 | |
single bad driving offence which he
has referred to and we set out in | 5:56:21 | 5:56:25 | |
detail why we are not persuaded of
the case for change. Those who have | 5:56:25 | 5:56:30 | |
tended to propose the single test
has said it will lead to more | 5:56:30 | 5:56:34 | |
convictions and longer sentences and
I understand the impetus and the | 5:56:34 | 5:56:36 | |
drive behind that. As explained in
the conservation we don't think that | 5:56:36 | 5:56:41 | |
would necessarily be the case
because the maximum penalty for the | 5:56:41 | 5:56:44 | |
single offence would have to be
broad enough to cover the serious | 5:56:44 | 5:56:49 | |
offences and we have proposed for
causing death that it could be a | 5:56:49 | 5:56:55 | |
life sentence but also the least
serious offence where the driver is | 5:56:55 | 5:57:00 | |
culpable is much lower and that is
the challenge in the proposal, to | 5:57:00 | 5:57:05 | |
reconcile and unite those two
offences. If we do not have a | 5:57:05 | 5:57:08 | |
distinction in the offenders between
the seriousness of the offending it | 5:57:08 | 5:57:10 | |
is possible that the conviction rate
could actually fall because jury 's | 5:57:10 | 5:57:15 | |
might be alerted to connect a driver
in some of those less serious cases | 5:57:15 | 5:57:19 | |
where they could imagine themselves
in the same position for an event of | 5:57:19 | 5:57:22 | |
a serious maximum penalty. And
sentences may not increase either | 5:57:22 | 5:57:28 | |
since the judge in the case would
still consider the culpability of | 5:57:28 | 5:57:32 | |
the offender in deciding on the
appropriate sentence. I would not | 5:57:32 | 5:57:35 | |
want to mislead victims of families
that a border offence might result | 5:57:35 | 5:57:41 | |
in higher sentences. I'm also not
sure that a single offence would | 5:57:41 | 5:57:44 | |
mean the CPS would be unable to
accept a lesser plea in | 5:57:44 | 5:57:47 | |
circumstances where that was
inappropriate. I hope I have at | 5:57:47 | 5:57:51 | |
least addressed some of the
wide-ranging concerns that he has | 5:57:51 | 5:57:57 | |
raised in this very important
debate. It is our last debate, Mr | 5:57:57 | 5:58:02 | |
Speaker, before we close for
Christmas. Can I finish by saying | 5:58:02 | 5:58:07 | |
that I can't think of anything more
tragic than the loss of a life, | 5:58:07 | 5:58:11 | |
especially where it was avoidable
and that is where we are all trying | 5:58:11 | 5:58:14 | |
to get to. I want to again extend my
deepest condolences to the | 5:58:14 | 5:58:20 | |
Winterburn family, especially as we
approach Christmas time. No | 5:58:20 | 5:58:22 | |
punishment will make up for the loss
of a loved one, we all know that, | 5:58:22 | 5:58:26 | |
but what we can and should do is
make sure that justice is properly | 5:58:26 | 5:58:30 | |
done, it is the least the victims
and the families deserve. It is | 5:58:30 | 5:58:34 | |
precisely what the public expects.
The question is that this have to | 5:58:34 | 5:58:40 | |
now adjourn. I think the ayes have
it. Order, order. | 5:58:40 | 5:58:50 |