21/12/2017 House of Commons


21/12/2017

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LineFromTo

Middle East?

Mr Speaker, I think all

members would condemn the sort of

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violence the honourable gentleman

talks about and I do encourage him

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to seek an adjournment debate.

Thank

you. Order. Statements, the Leader

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of the House. The Leader of the

House, Andrea Leadsom.

In advance of

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my statement, may I apologise it is

a little long but I do want to give

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a full account to the House.

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To address reports of bullying in

Parliament. Recognising that

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Parliament can and must set a good

example. In her letter to you, Mr

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Speaker, the Prime Minister made

clear the need for a new grievance

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procedure and a cross-party working

group on an complaints policy has

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been working hard over the last six

weeks to consider evidence and draw

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up recommendations for new

procedures. Good progress has been

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made. And during recess there'll be

further discussion within the

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parties and amongst the staff bodies

in order for a fuller report to be

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made in the New Year. There are many

examples of good employers and

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professional working practises

across Parliament. What we seek to

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do is make sure that this is the

case for all. So the working group,

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chaired by myself on behalf of the

Prime Minister, has been made up of

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two colleagues from Labour and one

from the national Scottish, the DUP,

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Plaid Cymru and the Green Party,

plus the Leader of the House of

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Commons and the convener from the

other place. We have three staff

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members representing Maps unite and

NUJ. They have ensured that staff

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voices have been heard loudly. We

have been supported by Cabinet

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Office and parliamentary staff,

including the work of jus teen

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Howell and Mr Mott, specialist. I am

aware of the active interest that a

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number of colleagues have taken. For

them it is a personal campaign to

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impro-ve the experience of those

working here. I thank them for

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discussing their thoughts with me,

particularly the honourable members

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for Luton South and my honourable

friends the members for Woking and

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basing stoke. We have heard from a

wide range of professionals, both in

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person and written submissions.

These include the speakers of both

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Houses, Professor Childs, Rape

Crisis, the Clarks of both houses,

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ACAS, the parliamentary commissions

for standards and the chair of the

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Committee on Standards in Public

Life, Unite, legal experts from the

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business world and Health assured.

The group heard from staff on their

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views on the churl in Parliament and

were grateful to those who spoke

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about their experiences. Or provide

pd anonymous submissions. The group

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identified three guiding principals.

Firstly, Parliament requires an

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independent process must be separate

from the political channels.

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Secondly, much evidence was taken

that claims of sexual harassment

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must be dealt with separately from

claims of bullying and other types

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of harassment. Structures alone will

not change the culture in

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Parliament. Other steps are also

needed, including crucially an HR

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service for the staff employed by

members and an expansion of training

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provision. As a result of the work

of the group, and with the support

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of the speaker and the commission,

there are a number of immediate

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measures which have been put in

place to increase the level of

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support to staff across the estate T

firstly, there would be a new

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interim provision of HR support and

guidance for the staff of members

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beginning after the recess while

consideration is given to the need

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for a broader HR service. HR support

will also be available to members

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staff working on the parliamentary

estate in squishtsy officers and

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those -- constituency offices and

those collectively employed by the

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parties. In addition new training

will be available, addressing a

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range of needs identified by the

working group. This is in addition

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to the announced expanded heel

assured helpline made available to

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members of staff across both Houses

and other pass-holders across the

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estate. As you yourself requested

the individual party policies and

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procedures for dealing bullying and

harassment have been published on

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line. A great deal has been

achieved. We also have a programme

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of work planned in to the New Year.

The working group has clearly

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identified the need for new policies

and procedures to tackle bullying

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and harassment, including sexual,

which should be available to staff

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and members across the estate, which

must be independence independent of

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the political parties. The proposals

which follow are the outcome of

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substantial evidence taken by the

working group. There is strong

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support from its members. It is the

case, however, that further work,

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evidence gathering and consultation

will be required before we can put

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new processes in place. They must

attract the full support and

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confidence of staff, MPs and peers

across Parliament. Some of the new

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policies that are under

consideration are a new behaviour

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code to be consulted on, which would

apply to all those who were in or

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for Parliament, including members,

peers and staff, wherever they are

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work. This behaviour code could sit

alongside the existing parliamentary

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codes of conduct, which may require

amendment. The procurement of a new

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independent sexual service to

provide a helpline and counselling,

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help and support to those wishing to

make disclosures. It would provide

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support to claimants, to those

including. To pursue a criminal

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justice route, or if they did not

wish to go to the police then

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alternative strictly confidential

resupport. The working group has

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taken evidence on the need for an

independent mediation service to

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provide a helpline, counselling and

investigation into incidents of

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bullying and intimidation. Finally,

we discussed sanctions. These will

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differ according to the server

severity of the grievance and to

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different individuals. For lower

level complaints the range of

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sanctions could include training

covering bullying and harassment, a

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full apolicy, as well as a review of

the policy past. Further work needs

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to be carried out to ensure

sanctions are appropriate, fair and

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enforcible. The functions of both

the parliamentary Commissioner for

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Standards and the standards

committee may need to be

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strengthened and reviewed to ensure

fair representation and

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confidentiality. Considerable

further work needs to be carried out

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before conclusions can be drawn. And

of course any changes to standing

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orders, or to the Code of Conduct

would require decisions by the

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House. Mr Speaker, the working

groups' discussions have been

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underpinned by a persistent theme,

that whilst there are many examples

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of excellent employers and working

relationships here, there is a real

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need to improve the overall

workplace culture of Parliament. One

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of the routes to this is proper

independent HR support for member

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staff to minimise the problem of con

tractual disputes. We need to work

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with the House authorities and staff

to consider the best and most

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appropriate way of delivering this

in the long-term. We also received a

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great deal of evidence on the need

for voluntary and mandatory training

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for staff and employers. This would

uncloud proper induction courses by

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staff employed by members. Whilst

this is not within the terms of

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reference for the working group, it

was made clear that enabling better

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support for better relationships

could significantly improve the

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working atmosphere and a

professional culture. The working

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group will consider the evidence

further. Mr Speaker, we were

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grateful for your own contribution

to the working group, where you made

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clear that the House of Commons

commission stands ready to do what

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it needs to do to respond to any

proposal from the working group,

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providing that the proposal combines

independence and transparency. We

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recognise both the need for swift

progress and also the need for

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careful consideration before taking

action. Our next steps, therefore,

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are crucial. The working group will

reconvene after recess to agree how

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the work can progress. We will look

to closely at the policies we have

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identified as needing further work

and consultation and begin to take

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further advice and evidence. There

have been a number of proposals

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about how to take our work forward.

These range from appointing a

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special Select Committee to

maintaining a members and staff

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cross members committee. We will

consider all ideas carefully. I want

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to make it clear that the work of

the existing group is on going for

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the time being. We will continue to

involve staff, peers and MPs

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collectively, each step of the way.

Excellent progress has been made in

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a short space of time, Mr Speaker. I

want to express my gratitude for the

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strong commitment shown by members

of the working group and for the

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expertise provided by our specialist

advisers. Finally, Mr Speaker, I

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will say this, the working group

formed to bring about change and I

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recognise that change is not always

easy, particularly somewhere with

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such long-standing tro decisions and

customs where we live and work in

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the full glare of the media

spotlight. But this cannot be an

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excuse. We should not rest until

everyone working in Parliament can

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feel safe, valued and respected. We

have a chance now to get this right.

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For everyone on the parliamentary

estate, including staff, MPs and

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peers, and I hope to bring the

working group's final proposals here

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in the New Year. Thank you.

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Can I thank the leader of the House

for her leadership of the group and

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thank all honourable members.

Everyone who took time to submit

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evidence and/or ral evidence,

including you, Mr Speaker, giving up

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time to attend the hearings. And

commitment by the speaker of both

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Houses is therefore there. Senior

Clarks of both Houses were on hand

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for discussion and those who started

the secretary tarry yacht, you

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responded magnificently trying to

make sense of all our discussions.

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With you represented what is great

about the work ethic in the House. I

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would like I would like to thank all

those who attended in addition to

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all the work they do currently for

members. The working party was set

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up by the Government with other

party leaders in the wake of reports

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of sexual harassment in a variety of

situations. I want to make the

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position of the opposition very,

very clear. I do not think it is

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acceptable that the position of the

opposition Labour Party was miss

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represented in the press at the

weekend. There is a report but it is

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still a draft report and it should

go out to consultation. Normally the

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report is agreed and after that the

summary can be published. But Mr

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Speaker, the group sat for over four

hours on one day and we came up with

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some good solutions, good, creative

solutions, which the leader has, to

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some extent, set out in her

statement. Suggestions are coming

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in, include from the public

administration and constitutional

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affairs committee yesterday. It

affects both Houses. I would like my

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counterpart, the Baroness of

Basildon to be fully informed as she

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takes it through the other place.

The working party does not come

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through the House by motion. If we

are to have change we need to

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consult, reflect on the proposals

and to make sure it is workable. We

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don't want to have to unpick it

later. But it is vital that the

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people in the party hierarchy and

those trade unions who represent

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staff in this place, who may not

have had a place in the group are

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consulted T leader mentions a number

of suggestions that can be put in

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place which can protect people now

for the medium term and the longer

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term. But the Leader of the

Opposition has made it clear to me

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and in his pet letter to the Prime

Minister that the opposition wants a

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separate independent sexual

harassment adviser support. The

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sexual adviser should be reported

now, who have independent and

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qualified to take the complaintant

through the process until the tender

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is out, which could be by the end of

January and a new separate helpline

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to be set up now. If there are cases

which exist now people don't feel as

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if there is nowhere to go with their

complaints. We cannot have this vk

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couple. It could easily be done

immediately. Will the leader of the

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House agree to do that now.

Independent human resources of

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staff. Some belong to trade unions.

Others do not want to. There are

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benefits to inJoing one. They have

expertise and are familiar with

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employment rights. Given the

possibility erosion of rights as we

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leave the EU there are concerns the

Working Time Directive may be

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removed. It is vital those not in

management have advice and

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assistance. I know the staff rep

said they would like the service and

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cannot deal with the cases they have

currently. This should be offered on

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an equivalent basis to the staff of

the House. The HR support service

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should be expanded with sen yoor

members of staff on how to inter--

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senior members of staff on how to

interview. That should be separate

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to that offered to staff. There are

policies which exist. The respect

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policy. We heard evidence, bill on

what you have. It take hassen staff

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of this House 18 months to get this

policy together. We need to use

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those expertise. There are many

other policies and best practise.

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ACAS said they are working a media

organisation to produce a policy on

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sexual harassment. With your swift

action, health assured is now open

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to all. It has been expanded. So

there is a route in for those who

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need it and they can be sign posted

to different areas of expertise.

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The leader mentions a new behaviour

code but this is where more work

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needs to be done. There is a code,

and as the chair said it could be

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amended. A reminder of the Nolan

principles in public life, what

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constitutes sexist or racist

behaviour. It need not be long, this

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mandatory training for every person

in the House, two hours which will

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include fire safety and even cyber

security. It is necessary for those

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who work here, not only to protect

themselves on what is appropriate

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and inappropriate behaviour, but

that is the right thing to do. As

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for sanctions, if it is for members

there must be further discussion

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with the parties. The Labour Party

is constantly refining its sexual

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harassment process. It has been

looked at by a leading QC that we

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are in a much better place. Any

process needs to be tested through

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the experience of a complainant,

only that way will we know if it

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works. This is too important an

issue. There needs to be expert help

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or consultants whether it's through

a select committee or Parliamentary

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Forum, it will be set up to monitor

outcomes and take forward further

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work and refine our policies. The

majority of people working here on

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Monday, when you referred to

members, dedicated and hard-working

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committed public servants doing what

you believe is the right thing for

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the country. I hope it will have

given power to the powerless as we

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protect vulnerable people and enable

them to work in this centre of

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democracy.

Mr Speaker, may I just

say to the honourable lady that I'm

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very pleased to hear that she feels

the work is progressing well, that's

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some good recommendations have been

made. I think it is very pleasing

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she wishes to make urgent progress

and I look forward to working with

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her closely on this in the New Year.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr Speaker, I

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would like to thank the Leader of

the House and the work alongside all

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colleagues over the last six weeks

and I welcome the updates in the New

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Year and the group taking on this

matter by the leader on behalf of

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the Prime Minister to get this

right. I have been committed in this

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place to making a positive place for

everyone working here and sitting on

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your diversity committee has very

much been an honour but it has shown

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the amount of challenges that we

have. As chair of the all

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Parliamentary group, we hosted an

event here for staff, aspiring

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politicians, councillors, business

leaders and...

The Speaker: Order! I

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don't wish to be discourteous. We

have a lot of business to get onto,

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I'm waiting to call someone else as

well who has other pressing

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business. I need a single sentence

question, nothing more.

Can we all

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commit to using every area to make

this a safe place to work and aspire

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to be?

My honourable friend does a

huge amount of this place to support

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particularly women but all equality

issues and I absolutely commend her

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for that and will be delighted to

work with her.

As a member of the

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working group I want to commend the

honourable lady for her leadership

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on this issue and the diligent way

she's gone round trying to build

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consensus. We have made solid

progress but it is profoundly

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disappointing we have been unable to

deliver a report on this side of

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Christmas as anticipated and as

expected by the rest of the people

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in this House. The Leader of the

House has gone that extra mile to

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ensure progress has been made. But

by failing to deliver this report we

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have let everyone down in this

House, particularly the staff who

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were expecting quick and speedy

progress and I'm appalled if there

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is any suggestion this might be

getting punted into the long grass.

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We have an excellent report ready to

go which has been agreed by all the

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parties in this House, practically

all the parties, and has been agreed

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by all staff representatives. I want

to join the leader in thanking the

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expert on sexual harassment, who

with their extensive experience,

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have helped design the report that

covers concerns raised by staff. I

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sincerely hope if there are parties

in this House who may have issues

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about getting the process of

delivering this report that they are

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quickly dealt with. It is far too

important an issue to be lost in

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party political machinery so can I

ask the Leader of the House to get

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people round the table as quickly as

possible and make sure this report

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is delivered so we can start

protecting people in this House.

I

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would like to thank the honourable

gentleman for his tireless work, he

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has been dedicated to making

progress with this and I commend him

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for that. I share his enthusiasm for

speedy work, speedy further

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progress. All colleagues will be

aware of the need for careful

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consultation but we do need to make

faster progress.

I welcome my right

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honourable friend's statement and

thank all of the members across the

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House who have worked on this. I am

particularly keen to hear more going

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forward on the code of conduct and

counselling made available. I have

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even raised with you the code of

conduct, Mr Speaker, and it's also

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about the language which we know the

importance of in this chamber. It

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can empower people but sometimes

people use language to subjugate

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women.

Yes, my honourable friend

raises a really important point

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about language and I do encourage

her to send in our own written

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submission to the working group.

I

want to say thank you to the Leader

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of the House for having a very open

process that I have personally felt

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I could take part in throughout the

process. What worries me about what

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has been said today, although I

think it is good progress, what

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worries me is there seems to be

quite a lot of kicking can down the

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road potentially and that we are not

going to hear what is to happen, and

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I have to say I fear politics is

still stopping some of those

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decisions and I want some assurances

that whatever sanctions regime the

0:22:040:22:11

working group has worked towards,

whatever independent regime the

0:22:110:22:14

working group has worked towards, it

is swiftly as possible if come to

0:22:140:22:18

fruition.

The honourable lady has

been very helpful and open with her

0:22:180:22:24

views on this matter and I assure

her I'm working to get this sorted

0:22:240:22:29

as soon as possible.

I'd like to

thank the leader for her work on

0:22:290:22:38

this working group, but as she knows

there are glaring omissions in the

0:22:380:22:42

work so far. For example the word

violence didn't alter from her lips

0:22:420:22:48

this morning. Can I suggest this

working group is too narrowly drawn

0:22:480:22:52

and she should consider setting up a

special select committee on which

0:22:520:22:55

all members of this House would

apply to be elected because we want

0:22:550:22:59

to make sure this is modern exemplar

of a workplace fit for the rest of

0:22:590:23:06

the world.

I'm grateful to my

honourable friend and I can assure

0:23:060:23:12

him one of the proposals the working

group is looking at is the provision

0:23:120:23:16

of services by an independent sexual

harassment and sexual violence that

0:23:160:23:24

-- advocate. His comments about the

proposed love select committee is an

0:23:240:23:31

interesting one, I've also mentioned

that as one of the proposals put to

0:23:310:23:34

us. The working group will look

carefully at the different

0:23:340:23:37

suggestions for how we take this

work forward to make sure we have

0:23:370:23:42

consulted thoroughly and done our

work very considerably and in the

0:23:420:23:45

full knowledge across this place.

I

praise her diplomacy, what she has

0:23:450:23:54

announced is fine as far as it goes

but she knows it's important and

0:23:540:23:57

urgent that we make more progress

and indeed that many in the working

0:23:570:24:01

group, including some members who

cannot be here today, are

0:24:010:24:05

disappointed and frustrated we are

not further forward. She is right to

0:24:050:24:10

say change is hard, would she agree

vested interests, not least whips

0:24:100:24:14

office is reluctant to give up their

power, must not be allowed to derail

0:24:140:24:20

parliament making progress on

harassment?

Again, I would like to

0:24:200:24:26

thank the honourable lady for her

contribution to the working group.

0:24:260:24:30

She has worked tirelessly on it and

also mention the honourable lady the

0:24:300:24:35

Member for Brighton, who has spent a

great deal of time and effort on

0:24:350:24:38

this. I would however say to her

that I have spoken to whips on both

0:24:380:24:42

sides of the House and in fact on

all sides of the House and all are

0:24:420:24:46

very keen to see resolution of this

matter and careful consideration but

0:24:460:24:52

I do believe we will be in a point

to make faster progress in the New

0:24:520:24:56

Year.

I congratulate my right

honourable friend on her leadership

0:24:560:25:02

and drive on this issue. Of course

Parliament is a special and unique

0:25:020:25:07

place of work but I think my

constituents will be most reassured

0:25:070:25:11

if the bespoke scheme that we come

up with was a blend of the best

0:25:110:25:16

independent complaints procedure in

the private sector, the best

0:25:160:25:23

independent complaints and grievance

sector in the public sector, and the

0:25:230:25:25

best example of an independent

grievance from around the world.

As

0:25:250:25:38

I said in my statement, we want to

be setting the best example, we

0:25:380:25:42

don't just want to be following

someone else but setting a great

0:25:420:25:45

example and make sure the culture in

this place is somewhere where

0:25:450:25:49

everybody feels safe, valued and

respected.

May I join with others

0:25:490:25:56

commending the Leader of the House

on the work that has happened so far

0:25:560:25:59

and recognise the journey to go

because we all have some way to go

0:25:590:26:03

before we can practice what we are

preaching in this House. On that

0:26:030:26:07

point, can I ask her to clarify, she

said in her statement further work

0:26:070:26:11

needs to be carried out to ensure

sanctions are appropriate, fair and

0:26:110:26:16

unenforceable. Will she and core --

ensure recall is on the table as an

0:26:160:26:26

option and that severance payments

will be received by those who have

0:26:260:26:33

behaved inappropriately.

Recall is

set in law as a matter of fact so it

0:26:330:26:38

is a possibility under certain

conditions as a matter of fact. The

0:26:380:26:42

working party has not yet finished

its work or its evidence taking on

0:26:420:26:46

exactly how that can be brought to

bear here but we are very clear

0:26:460:26:49

there will be ultimate sanctions,

but let's also be clear, the issue

0:26:490:26:52

for Parliament isn't one that only

affects members, it affects peers

0:26:520:26:58

and staff, nonmember staff around

the parliamentary estate so there is

0:26:580:27:03

a large amount of work which is why

I was very clear the work on

0:27:030:27:07

sanctions needs to be looked at

further to make sure they are fair

0:27:070:27:10

both to the person who's been

alleged to have committed something

0:27:100:27:14

bad and also to the complainant who

deserves justice so there is more

0:27:140:27:18

work to be done there.

I'd like to

thank the leader for her statement

0:27:180:27:24

that contains some welcome measures,

particularly the sexual violence

0:27:240:27:30

advocate service, and could I also

say I am extremely welcome that the

0:27:300:27:34

system needs to be completely

separate from the normal political

0:27:340:27:40

channels. As the Leader of the House

is aware, I note the behaviour code

0:27:400:27:50

in the statement will cover a much

larger number of people than members

0:27:500:27:54

of this House. I wonder at this

stage if you can answer the question

0:27:540:27:58

well she is consulting further, who

would look at the issue of

0:27:580:28:06

investigating members, not members

of this House but other people who

0:28:060:28:12

may come under that cold.

He raises

a similar point of the honourable

0:28:120:28:19

lady from Walthamstow, very

important the sanction should be

0:28:190:28:21

fair and appropriate to whatever is

the employment contract or contract

0:28:210:28:25

with members of the public that is

held by the person about whom the

0:28:250:28:29

accusation is being made so it will

require further work to ensure

0:28:290:28:34

sanctions are appropriate for the

alleged perpetrator.

Can I thank the

0:28:340:28:40

GMB union for being the first Labour

affiliate to building detailed

0:28:400:28:45

questioning of potential MPs or

candidates understanding of sexual

0:28:450:28:49

harassment and for having the

integrity to refuse to nominate

0:28:490:28:53

people who don't have that

understanding. Will the Leader of

0:28:530:28:58

the House let us know whether those

women who have previously complained

0:28:580:29:02

don't feel their complaint has

actually been heard, will they have

0:29:020:29:06

recourse to this new system?

A great

deal of discussion on this point

0:29:060:29:13

took place and it was recognised by

the working group there would have

0:29:130:29:19

to be certain limitations because

theoretically otherwise you could be

0:29:190:29:22

listening to allegations that were

40, 50 years old that potentially

0:29:220:29:27

people... The allegations against

were no longer living. It is

0:29:270:29:35

absolutely our intention that people

who have current investigations are

0:29:350:29:38

obligations should be able to seek

access to this independent

0:29:380:29:42

complaints body, even though that

body may choose for particular

0:29:420:29:47

reasons not to then take up their

obligations.

0:29:470:29:53

There are some awful employment

practises in Parliament. I know of

0:29:530:29:58

MPs shouting at their staff till

they ciesmt I know of MPs never

0:29:580:30:03

advertising for their staff before

they appoint. Interviewing on their

0:30:030:30:07

own without anybody else in the

room. Not going through a proper

0:30:070:30:10

short listing process. All sorts of

terrible practises. Wouldn't the

0:30:100:30:14

best thing be for us to have a

proper HR service available through

0:30:140:30:19

the House so, that all MPs, the

moment they arrive here, have a

0:30:190:30:24

proper opportunity, if they maybe

never employed or recruited people

0:30:240:30:29

before, to learn good practise from

the beginning?

So the working group

0:30:290:30:34

has taken evidence that has

considered that. The overwhelming

0:30:340:30:38

evidence is that Members of

Parliament need to continue to

0:30:380:30:41

directly employ their staff. It was

very clear from staff evidence that

0:30:410:30:46

support for good employment

practises was needed. So to provide

0:30:460:30:50

independent advise on employment

matters. For members of staff, but

0:30:500:30:53

also that training and this is an

area I have mentioned in my

0:30:530:30:58

statement, mandatory and voluntary

should be made available, not just

0:30:580:31:01

to members but to staff. There is an

issue for many staff who, for

0:31:010:31:05

example, were saying they would like

to have proper induction, so when

0:31:050:31:09

they come here they can be taked

exactly where the table office is

0:31:090:31:15

and so on, without having to ask

other's advice. There is an

0:31:150:31:19

opportunity here to set right some

things which are fairly basic, all

0:31:190:31:23

the way up to people understanding

thoroughly what constitutes bullying

0:31:230:31:30

and harassment, what constitutes a

proper appraisal and so on. Many

0:31:300:31:36

members have that experience but not

all of them. We should make it the

0:31:360:31:41

case every employer in this place

has that training.

Thank you. I am

0:31:410:31:45

pleased some trade unions have had a

voice on the working group. When is

0:31:450:31:50

Parliament going to formally

recognise trade unions?

I would like

0:31:500:31:57

to pay tribute to working party

members, Max Freiedman Georgina -

0:31:570:32:09

all three who work for staff in this

place. They have done a great job.

0:32:090:32:14

They have consulted widely with

staff. There are some technical

0:32:140:32:16

reasons why it wouldn't be possible

to requ irsome sort of, across the

0:32:160:32:22

board, recognition of trade unions.

But nevertheless, in the work of the

0:32:220:32:26

working group we have taken evidence

on how valuable some of the support

0:32:260:32:30

from trade unions can be.

THE SPEAKER: I think the hom lady

0:32:300:32:36

means staff of Members of

Parliament. That is a matter that

0:32:360:32:40

can be further considered. It is

just important to put on the record,

0:32:400:32:45

for the benefit not least of those

attending to our proceedings who are

0:32:450:32:50

not members of or employed by the

House, but the House itself most

0:32:500:32:55

certainly recognises trade unions.

And negotiates with the staff of the

0:32:550:32:58

House. I recognise the other issue

at which I think the honourable lady

0:32:580:33:04

was hinting and that can certainly

be further discussed. I am in no way

0:33:040:33:11

an obstacle to a development on that

front, if that is the settled or

0:33:110:33:15

general will of members.

Thank you. If there is an HR

0:33:150:33:23

service, then surely it could

recognise trade unions for member

0:33:230:33:27

staff in the way described. Can I

thank the Leader of the House for

0:33:270:33:31

her work on this. It cannot be right

that it is easier to sanction a

0:33:310:33:34

member of this House for disorderly

conduct in the chamber than it is to

0:33:340:33:42

sanction them for disgraceful

behaviour outside of it. If she

0:33:420:33:47

cannot find unanimity in her working

group, that this issue belong to the

0:33:470:33:51

House. If she cannot get it in the

working group, perhaps she could

0:33:510:33:58

produce a draft we can all comment

on.

0:33:580:34:02

The leader of the House?

I thank the honourable gentleman.

0:34:020:34:06

The working group is working as fast

and as carefully as it possibly can.

0:34:060:34:10

As I said in my statement we hope to

be able to produce that report in

0:34:100:34:15

the New Year.

Further to my

honourable friend's question, I was

0:34:150:34:23

branch secretary of Unite union in

Parliament a few years ago. I was

0:34:230:34:27

involved in legal conversations

about recognition. It is a complex

0:34:270:34:30

process. There is not a firm legal

barrier in the way. It is a crucial

0:34:300:34:35

process, the cleaning up, the

culture in this place. I am grateful

0:34:350:34:38

to your support. I beg the leader of

the House to reconsider her

0:34:380:34:43

statement just now there'll be no

recognition of Unite, the union,

0:34:430:34:46

here.

I can assure the hom lady that is

0:34:460:34:50

not what I said. I said we took

evidence on it. There are some

0:34:500:34:54

technical challenges. Also because

Members of Parliament employ their

0:34:540:34:58

staff directly there is not

necessarily a lever by which to

0:34:580:35:02

require people to make such

decisions for themselves. I am not

0:35:020:35:04

ruling anything out. I am merely

trying to enlighten the House on the

0:35:040:35:09

evidence taken by the working group.

I thank the leader of the House for

0:35:090:35:17

her hard work, for her energy and

diligence in this matter. It is very

0:35:170:35:20

good to have that over some 11

meetings over 30 hours. We Saturday

0:35:200:35:29

-- we sat on the committee. I share

her disappointment that there should

0:35:290:35:35

be any delay but welcome the

progress so far. Can the leader of

0:35:350:35:40

the House outline the next steps to

ensure a robust system to ensure

0:35:400:35:44

no-one is harassed or bullied

without action being take no-one the

0:35:440:35:47

mean time?

Well, I would like to

thank his honourable friend, the

0:35:470:35:52

member for South Belfast for her

very strong and diligent

0:35:520:35:56

contribution to the working party.

She made a very strong contribution.

0:35:560:36:00

In particular bringing in the

specific issues in constituency

0:36:000:36:05

offices, particularly in the context

of Northern Ireland, which the

0:36:050:36:07

working group found very helpful. As

I have said in my statement, the

0:36:070:36:11

working group will continue to meet.

We will reconvene in the newer and

0:36:110:36:16

seek to make progress as swiftly as

we can.

0:36:160:36:22

THE SPEAKER: Order, statement the

parliamentary Under-Secretary of

0:36:220:36:25

State for local Government.

Minister Marcus Jones.

0:36:250:36:31

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I would

firstly like to wish you, Mr

0:36:310:36:36

Speaker, and fellow members of the

House, a very merry Christmas.

0:36:360:36:42

With your permission, Mr Speaker, I

would like to thank you for the

0:36:420:36:47

opportunity to update the House on

our plans a new funding models for

0:36:470:36:53

supported housing. This update

follows an earlier debate on this

0:36:530:36:57

issue on 25th October and responds

to the recent resolution of the

0:36:570:37:02

House. Mr Speaker, we all agree that

supported housing is an invaluable

0:37:020:37:08

lifeline for some of the most

vulnerable people in our society,

0:37:080:37:12

which is why this Government is

determined to ensure that the

0:37:120:37:17

funding model that underpins

supported houses, boosts the supply

0:37:170:37:22

of this Housing housing and delivers

a good quality of life for people

0:37:220:37:27

who depend on it. The House will be

aware that we set out our plans for

0:37:270:37:31

doing this through a written

ministerial statement on 31st

0:37:310:37:35

October. In this, we confirmed that

we will not apply the local housing

0:37:350:37:41

allowance rates to tenants in

supported housing or the wider

0:37:410:37:46

social rented sector and that we

will introduce this new approach

0:37:460:37:50

from April 2020, rather than April

2019, to ensure that vital support

0:37:500:37:55

provided to vulnerable people is not

interrupted or indeed put in doubt.

0:37:550:38:00

We said that funding for housing

costs for sheltered housing will

0:38:000:38:05

stay in the welfare system. We will

introduce a sheltered rent for

0:38:050:38:10

sheltered and extra care housing, a

type of social rent that will cap

0:38:100:38:15

the amount that sheltered providers

can charge for gross rent. We will

0:38:150:38:20

work closely with the sector to set

these limits at an appropriate level

0:38:200:38:24

and more generally to protect

provision and new supply. We will

0:38:240:38:29

bring in existing supply at their

existing levels of rent and service

0:38:290:38:33

charges. We also said that long-term

supported housing such as permanent

0:38:330:38:39

housing for people with learning or

fiscal disabilities, or long-term --

0:38:390:38:45

physical disabilities or long-term

mental ill health will remain in the

0:38:450:38:51

welfare system and look to develop

greater cost control. All provided

0:38:510:38:57

by the welfare system will continue

to be funded at the same level by

0:38:570:39:02

local authorities in 2020. Housing

costs will be funded directly by

0:39:020:39:07

local authorities through a

ring-fence grant. This ring-fence

0:39:070:39:10

will remain in the long-term. The

amount of grant funding will

0:39:100:39:15

continue to take account of the cost

of provision and the growth in

0:39:150:39:20

supply required. There are real

advantages to this new approach, by

0:39:200:39:27

retaining funding for long-termer

term supported housing and sheltered

0:39:270:39:30

housing in the welfare system, we

are giving the sector in the words

0:39:300:39:34

of the home group, the certainty we

need to get on and build more homes.

0:39:340:39:39

And they have not hesitated to act,

Mr Speaker. They have already given

0:39:390:39:43

the go ahead for £50 million of

capital investment in three new

0:39:430:39:48

supported housing schemes so, the

sector is feeling optimistic about

0:39:480:39:51

the future. Which can only be good

news for supported and sheltered

0:39:510:39:58

housing tenants. We are proposing a

new model to take account of the

0:39:580:40:05

needs it presents all short-term

provision, for example hostels and

0:40:050:40:11

women's refuges currently funded

will be funded at the same level by

0:40:110:40:16

low cart authorities in 2020. As

noted aed the recent budget 2017.

0:40:160:40:21

The documents within that budget

there will be a transfer of funds

0:40:210:40:27

from welfare spending to my

department from 2020/20216789 The

0:40:270:40:32

Right Honourable member for

Wentworth voiced concerns on October

0:40:320:40:37

25th over future funding levels for

supported housing after 2020. I

0:40:370:40:41

would like to take this opportunity

to reassure him that the amount of

0:40:410:40:46

grant funding for this part of the

sector after 2020 will continue to

0:40:460:40:50

take account of the cost of

provision and the growth of future

0:40:500:40:54

provision. I recognise there are

also concernses about the new

0:40:540:41:00

arrangements for local authorities

to directly fund short-term

0:41:000:41:03

accommodation and how it will work.

Again I want to make it absolutely

0:41:030:41:07

clear, Mr Speaker, that our aim in

making these changes is to allow

0:41:070:41:10

residents to be able to keep and

find work without having to worry

0:41:100:41:15

about meeting their housing costs at

a particular difficult time in their

0:41:150:41:19

lives. The changes will also help

people to move on without carrying a

0:41:190:41:25

legacy of rent arrears and debts to

ease the administrative burden for

0:41:250:41:29

providers, who will no longer need

to collect rent and service charges

0:41:290:41:34

from residents. Councils have a

strong interest, too. In sustainable

0:41:340:41:39

short-term accommodation, which

meets local needs, the new model

0:41:390:41:43

gives a bigger role in commissioning

short-term accommodation, as well as

0:41:430:41:48

a strategic planning rule for

strategic housing. Something the

0:41:480:41:54

local Housing Association has

welcomed. And this strong local

0:41:540:42:00

focus encourages greater engagement

at a local level with positive

0:42:000:42:04

outcomes for residents at the

forefront. We have set out a

0:42:040:42:08

framework, that provides certainty,

stronger oversight, cost control and

0:42:080:42:13

most vitally focus on good outcomes

for tenants that is needed to boost

0:42:130:42:18

housing supply in this incredibly

diverse sector. Having done that we

0:42:180:42:22

are working closely with the sector

on the detail. We are formally

0:42:220:42:27

consulting on sheltered rent and on

the short-term funding model. My

0:42:270:42:31

honourable friend for Gosport, the

minister for the Department for Work

0:42:310:42:36

and Pensions and my honourable

friend, the minister in the Home

0:42:360:42:40

Office and myself have also met

sector representatives. I am pleased

0:42:400:42:45

to say overall the response has been

positive. We acknowledge some of the

0:42:450:42:48

concerns that have been expressed

and we will continue to work with

0:42:480:42:54

local authorities, providers and

tenants to get this right. The

0:42:540:42:56

people who live in supported

housing, vulnerable older people,

0:42:560:43:01

people with learning disabilities

and physical disabilities, women and

0:43:010:43:07

children fleeing horrific domestic

abuse and the homeless deserve no

0:43:070:43:09

less. Mr Speaker, before I conclude

my statement I would just like to

0:43:090:43:15

thank all of those people who are

working to deliver sheltered and

0:43:150:43:22

supported housing across our nation

during this festive period. I would

0:43:220:43:25

like to thank them for the hard work

and all they do to support the most

0:43:250:43:30

vulnerable people in society. Mr

Speaker, I commend this to the

0:43:300:43:34

House.

I join the minister in

thanking those helping the homeless.

0:43:340:43:41

I thank the minister for his earlier

copy of his same time. Although I

0:43:410:43:46

fail to see anything fresh, I

nevertheless welcome this. This

0:43:460:43:49

House has played a big part over the

last two years in getting Government

0:43:490:43:53

to reverse its previous plans on

supported housing. Individual

0:43:530:43:59

members on all sides have spoken

strongly, as have charities and

0:43:590:44:04

Housing Associations, to warn of the

folly and the flaws in the funding

0:44:040:44:08

changes. The joint Select Committee

report has laid a cross-party basis

0:44:080:44:14

for the Government re-think. We have

led three opposition debates and

0:44:140:44:19

this statement, as the minister

says, responds to the resolution of

0:44:190:44:22

the House on the last of these. In

that Labour debate on 25th October I

0:44:220:44:27

warned that the devil is always in

the detail and in the funding. To

0:44:270:44:33

say this statement today does

nothing to clear up concerns on both

0:44:330:44:36

fronts. On funding the minister

repeated the same flawed promise. He

0:44:360:44:42

says all short-term provision

currently funded be I the welfare

0:44:420:44:45

system will continue to be funded at

the same level by local authorities

0:44:450:44:49

in 2020. Only a commitment for 2020,

no pledge beyond that when the red

0:44:490:44:57

book, last month, showed the

Treasury has inked in cuts half a

0:44:570:45:07

billion in 2021/2022. Can he confirm

no cut in funding in the second

0:45:070:45:15

second quubs quent years? Quent --

subsequent years?

0:45:150:45:21

This is precisely the problem, it

will be ministers that make grant

0:45:260:45:30

decisions in the future, ministers

who say they have taken account of

0:45:300:45:33

the costs and growth, unlike the

welcome move to keep other types of

0:45:330:45:39

supported housing within the welfare

system, this will no longer be needs

0:45:390:45:44

lead, no longer based on the right

to help with housing costs for

0:45:440:45:48

individuals. This is why some are

saying it is unlikely with these

0:45:480:45:54

plans providers would be able to

secure loans to develop new services

0:45:540:45:59

or be able to ensure regulators by

providing short-term supported

0:45:590:46:03

housing is financially viable in the

long term. What would he make to

0:46:030:46:12

provide this reassurance? In

addition, confusion about how the

0:46:120:46:17

system will work in practice. The

plan is to keep residents are

0:46:170:46:25

entitled to housing benefits but

services with the new grant won't

0:46:250:46:29

charge rent or drawdown and cash in

the entitlement so what happens if

0:46:290:46:33

the service does not receive grant?

Convert their residents receive

0:46:330:46:37

housing benefit? If it receives

grant for some but not all

0:46:370:46:41

residents, can some still get

housing benefit? And would he

0:46:410:46:48

consider cutting down the definition

of short-term to two weeks, making

0:46:480:46:55

people eligible for claiming housing

benefit? And finally, what will he

0:46:550:47:01

do to ensure organisations that

don't currently deal with local

0:47:010:47:04

authorities, don't for instance get

supporting people funding, don't

0:47:040:47:08

fall through the gaps in the new

system? Finally, in future years I

0:47:080:47:13

have to say students will be giving

-- given this as a case study in

0:47:130:47:21

disastrous decision-making. This is

that their policy rewrite in two

0:47:210:47:25

years since George Osborne made the

decision to give the Treasury big

0:47:250:47:29

cost savings and the Government

still hasn't got it right, so will

0:47:290:47:32

the Minister accept that government

must work further with Parliament

0:47:320:47:37

and with the housing sector to meet

the terms of the resolution and sort

0:47:370:47:42

out a good long-term system for the

future and the funding of supported

0:47:420:47:47

housing?

Thank you, Mr Speaker and

this is the season of goodwill to

0:47:470:47:56

all men and women and the right

honourable gentleman set off in his

0:47:560:48:00

remarks so well but then wasn't too

vested in his spirit. He mentioned

0:48:000:48:09

short-term accommodation and what

would happen post-20 20. If he looks

0:48:090:48:14

he will clearly see there is a

transfer from DWP to DCLG to cover

0:48:140:48:20

the cost of supported housing,

short-term supported housing going

0:48:200:48:26

forward. We are absolutely clear and

we will come forward with further

0:48:260:48:31

plans following the consultation on

how we will assess future provision

0:48:310:48:37

and how we will deal with that, and

what we will need to make sure that

0:48:370:48:43

the providers have a sustainable

position going forward to reflect

0:48:430:48:49

inflation. The tenants themselves

will not lose the ability to the

0:48:490:48:54

housing costs and we fully expect

that people will be in a position

0:48:540:49:01

when the system comes into effect

that they will have the help and

0:49:010:49:08

support they need. I would say to

him we do not expect people will

0:49:080:49:12

have opportunity to claim housing

benefit for the same service at that

0:49:120:49:15

point but what I would say to him is

there are deficiencies in the

0:49:150:49:19

current system that he just doesn't

acknowledge, like I mentioned in my

0:49:190:49:23

original speech in terms of women

going into a refuge being able to

0:49:230:49:31

work because sometimes they cannot

claim housing benefit and therefore

0:49:310:49:35

cannot work. We are also working

closely with the sector. There are

0:49:350:49:41

number of things he mentioned in

relation to how it would work with

0:49:410:49:45

local authorities and what I say to

him is we are putting in place a

0:49:450:49:50

strong statement of expectations, we

are also going to put in place very

0:49:500:49:53

strong grant conditions within the

ring fence. In terms of the point he

0:49:530:49:59

mentioned about the two years for

short-term supported accommodation,

0:49:590:50:03

what I can tell him is within the

working groups we had, and we had a

0:50:030:50:07

working group looking at this,

providers across the sector, and

0:50:070:50:12

whilst they weren't absolutely

clear, what they came up with is the

0:50:120:50:16

two year period as a sort of

minority verdict and that's why we

0:50:160:50:23

have followed the situation we have.

Just to reassure the House, this

0:50:230:50:27

Government is absolutely committed

to protecting the most vulnerable

0:50:270:50:31

and we are confident that working

with the sector we can get this

0:50:310:50:34

right.

This is an extremely

important matter and I'm keen to

0:50:340:50:41

accommodate colleagues' interest in

it but can I remind the House there

0:50:410:50:45

are two heavily subscribed debates

to take place when this exchange has

0:50:450:50:53

been concluded and it would be good

if contributions did not expand to

0:50:530:50:59

fill the time available. What we are

looking for here is a short question

0:50:590:51:03

and of short reply. The former will

be brilliantly exemplified, as

0:51:030:51:09

always, by the author of the

textbook on the matter Sir Desmond

0:51:090:51:13

Swain.

Will account be taken of the

security measures that are proper to

0:51:130:51:22

refugees dealing with people fleeing

domestic violence?

I thank my

0:51:220:51:31

honourable friend, indeed that is an

important consideration and

0:51:310:51:34

certainly part of the housing cost

and it actually reflects why at the

0:51:340:51:38

moment housing benefit for refugees

is actually higher to reflect those

0:51:380:51:44

type of costs than it is in terms of

general needs that housing benefit.

0:51:440:51:51

I welcome the introduction of the

sheltered rent principle, it seems

0:51:510:51:55

the right thing to do, but I don't

think it's too difficult to pinpoint

0:51:550:51:59

where this Government has come in

for criticism over paying the

0:51:590:52:02

housing costs of the most

disadvantaged members of our society

0:52:020:52:06

so can the Minister give a guarantee

there will be no penny-pinching,

0:52:060:52:09

that the extra care housing costs

will be met in full by central

0:52:090:52:14

government without quibble or

caveat. That is a straight

0:52:140:52:18

up-and-down responsibility of a

modern government. The costs for

0:52:180:52:22

delivery cannot just be passed onto

local government, charities or

0:52:220:52:26

housing providers. You might

encourage him to drop the mantra

0:52:260:52:31

that providing housing support for

people is about getting them into

0:52:310:52:34

work and just say that it's about

helping people with their housing,

0:52:340:52:38

making sure people are in decent

housing is an honourable aim within

0:52:380:52:43

itself, it doesn't need additional

aims. In the October policy paper

0:52:430:52:47

there was an explicit commitment of

additional funding to Scotland and

0:52:470:52:50

Wales as a result of the

implementation of this policy. Can

0:52:500:52:55

he say whether that remains the

intention and if so what the

0:52:550:52:58

indicative song is in each case.

Lastly it is very welcome that there

0:52:580:53:03

will be some security of supply for

support for people getting back into

0:53:030:53:07

housing and hopefully moving on to

managing their own houses but can

0:53:070:53:11

the Minister sake if there is an

intention to provide additional

0:53:110:53:14

resources for the outreach work and

street work that helps find the

0:53:140:53:17

people in need in the first place?

Just a cover that last point the

0:53:170:53:25

honourable lady raised first, this

is about the housing costs that we

0:53:250:53:30

are talking about today rather than

the support costs which she

0:53:300:53:34

mentioned in that sense. To take on

the rest of the questions, in

0:53:340:53:38

relation to sheltered rent, that

will also cover extra care, and I

0:53:380:53:51

can assure the honourable lady this

is not about penny-pinching and I

0:53:510:53:54

can also reassure her on the point

of work. The point I was making was

0:53:540:54:00

about women's refuges where there

are often women who are being abused

0:54:000:54:05

and subject to domestic violence but

have reasonable jobs and without

0:54:050:54:08

giving up those jobs they wouldn't

qualify for housing benefit and I

0:54:080:54:13

can't see how that is right at all.

70% of people in supported housing

0:54:130:54:19

as well or older people so in

reality they are not people we would

0:54:190:54:26

expect to work so I just want to

clarify that. I also want to clarify

0:54:260:54:30

we are working with the devolved

government in Scotland on all

0:54:300:54:36

aspects of this policy and we will

be confirming the funding that goes

0:54:360:54:42

to Scotland and Wales in due course.

What is being done to highlight and

0:54:420:54:47

promote the best examples of

supported housing and to condemn and

0:54:470:54:50

call out the worst?

My honourable

friend makes a good point and this

0:54:500:54:56

is one of the reasons for reform

because there are some appalling

0:54:560:54:59

examples of supported housing and

because in housing benefit system

0:54:590:55:05

there are no checks and balances, it

means people get away with providing

0:55:050:55:09

that appalling provision and get

paid the same for that is another

0:55:090:55:13

provider would that providing a good

quality service. We will work with

0:55:130:55:20

the LGA and the sector so we put

strong conditions in place to make

0:55:200:55:23

sure the best practices followed

everywhere.

Can the Minister clarify

0:55:230:55:28

how funding domestic violence refuge

provision at the same level today

0:55:280:55:33

will address the shortfall across

the country. Around 90 women and

0:55:330:55:40

their children are being turned away

every day from refuge provision

0:55:400:55:43

across the country. Without an

increase in refuge provision and

0:55:430:55:51

without establishing a national

network, the Government will fail to

0:55:510:55:53

guarantee every woman and child

fleeing can be kept safe in a

0:55:530:55:59

refuge.

The honourable lady makes a

good point, every woman should be

0:55:590:56:03

protected and have a safe place to

go. There are more spaces than in

0:56:030:56:09

2010 but she makes a good point and

we are doing a full audit next year

0:56:090:56:13

to see what provision is like across

the country and that will allow us

0:56:130:56:17

to see where the gaps and challenges

are.

Can I commend the Minister for

0:56:170:56:26

the work is done in a complicated

area. Can he assured me he will

0:56:260:56:30

continue to liaise closely with the

sector to address the short-term

0:56:300:56:35

emergency accommodation and secondly

the need to stimulate much-needed

0:56:350:56:38

new development.

I'd like to thank

my honourable friend for his kind

0:56:380:56:45

words and commend him for the hard

work he has put in on this

0:56:450:56:49

particular issue. He mentioned

short-term supply, on both fronts we

0:56:490:56:54

will be working closely with the

sector to make sure this happens.

0:56:540:56:58

It's already happening, the home

group have confirmed they are

0:56:580:57:02

spending another £50 million on

supported housing but we want to

0:57:020:57:05

make sure the £400 million we have

in capital funding goes out and

0:57:050:57:09

builds good quality supported

housing to build on the other

0:57:090:57:14

housing units we have built since

2011.

Will the Minister commit to an

0:57:140:57:19

annual review of these arrangements

to see if the investment he says is

0:57:190:57:23

going to, was in fact come, and can

he also confirm when the Government

0:57:230:57:28

will have a long-term sustainable

plan for the sector?

I can reassure

0:57:280:57:33

the honourable gentleman what we are

putting in place is a long-term

0:57:330:57:37

sustainable plan for the sector, and

I would say to him that we are

0:57:370:57:41

working with the sector very closely

to make sure they are reassured of

0:57:410:57:44

that.

Will my honourable friend meet

with me with north Staffordshire

0:57:440:57:52

YMCA and north Staffordshire women's

aid to discuss some of the concerns

0:57:520:57:56

they have for short-term supported

housing?

I thank my honourable

0:57:560:58:02

friend who is a strong campaigner

for the people of Stafford and

0:58:020:58:06

Staffordshire and I would be glad to

meet with him and the YMCA and his

0:58:060:58:11

local women's aid to talk about

short-term accommodation. I've met

0:58:110:58:14

with members on both sides of the

House to discuss this issue and I'm

0:58:140:58:18

very welcome to do so.

I share my

right honourable friend's concerns

0:58:180:58:24

about moving from a demand led

system for people in need of

0:58:240:58:29

short-term supported housing. Will

the Minister say what will happen if

0:58:290:58:33

a local authority has no allocation

left to meet the needs of honourable

0:58:330:58:37

individuals? Will the central

government be underwriting costs in

0:58:370:58:43

those circumstances?

This is about

getting the system right. We have

0:58:430:58:48

until 2020 to do that. We need to

make sure we have our assessment of

0:58:480:58:52

needs in particular areas right,

areas will have to set out a clear

0:58:520:58:56

plan to say what the future need in

a particular area will be. We will

0:58:560:59:01

be working with them on that because

we are clear we want there to be the

0:59:010:59:06

ability for people to have access to

the various types of short-term

0:59:060:59:10

supported accommodation going

forward.

I commend my honourable

0:59:100:59:19

friend for the action he's taken so

far. By definition, people in

0:59:190:59:25

supported housing are vulnerable but

far too often we concentrate on what

0:59:250:59:28

they can't do rather than what they

can do. But clearly one of the

0:59:280:59:34

problems people face is complicated

form filling or asking for money

0:59:340:59:38

which is their entitlement. Can he

looked during this transitional

0:59:380:59:43

phase at streamlining the process so

we take the anxiety out of those in

0:59:430:59:47

supported housing so they can fulfil

their real potential in what they

0:59:470:59:51

can do in society?

My honourable

friend as usual hits the nail on the

0:59:510:59:57

head and he's right that at a time

when people are in crisis in their

0:59:571:00:01

lives, form filling and bureaucracy

is not the first thing on their mind

1:00:011:00:05

and he is also write a lot of these

people have a significant amount of

1:00:051:00:09

potential. With our new system we

will take that form filling and

1:00:091:00:13

bureaucracy out of the way so we can

support people when they

1:00:131:00:25

Homelessness has been on the rise

over the last two year model. Are we

1:00:261:00:31

confident now the government's

statements today will put security

1:00:311:00:35

into place that is needed to tackle

what the right honourable member for

1:00:351:00:41

Waverley says around short-term

needs and longer term investment?

I

1:00:411:00:47

am confident we can achieve that in

terms of short-term supported

1:00:471:00:51

housing. I am confident the other

measures the government is taking,

1:00:511:00:57

having supported the Homelessness

Reduction Act and various other

1:00:571:01:02

programmes, including Housing First

we are looking to pilot will make a

1:01:021:01:07

difference in tackling homelessness

and make a difference.

I recently

1:01:071:01:17

visited supported housing in my

constituency and saw the excellent

1:01:171:01:21

work going on. Will the Minister to

commit to continue to encourage and

1:01:211:01:26

support this vital sector?

I

absolutely will. I want to reassure

1:01:261:01:34

the short-term providers in his

constituency, we are continuing to

1:01:341:01:37

work with the sector. We are

loosening to some of the concerns.

1:01:371:01:44

It is important when you meet the

short-term providers, when we

1:01:441:01:48

explain what we're looking to do,

they are reasonably warm to the

1:01:481:01:51

things we are looking to do. But

they also say to others we've got to

1:01:511:01:56

get it right, convince them, for

example, the ring fencing, is for

1:01:561:02:02

the long term and we are seeking to

do that.

The Minister claims he

1:02:021:02:08

wants to help the young, vulnerable

homeless but in Mike constituency,

1:02:081:02:15

Crossroads the hostel for young

people is funded by the Salvation

1:02:151:02:21

Army, housing allowance and

Lancashire County Council but this

1:02:211:02:24

government is butchering the County

Council's budgets. How can he

1:02:241:02:30

reassure me Crossroads will stay

open?

I have given access to council

1:02:301:02:38

another nine 5p for adult social

care. I take the point of what he

1:02:381:02:46

makes for his constituency that run

programmes by homeless people.

1:02:461:02:57

Order. Point of order, briefly Chris

Stephens.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I

1:02:571:03:06

sent you a copy of the letter I

received from Circle. I will gently

1:03:061:03:17

describe it as being in temperate.

It gives an interpretation of data

1:03:171:03:25

protection of the Data Protection

Act 1988 and the members of the

1:03:251:03:31

House should seek approval from

constituents. Could you provide me

1:03:311:03:35

with an interpretation of data

protection as it applies to members

1:03:351:03:38

of the House?

I am grateful to the

honourable member. I am sited on the

1:03:381:03:47

matter, because he alerted me to the

thrust and I have seen the letter

1:03:471:03:52

the honourable gentleman has

received from the chief Executive of

1:03:521:03:54

circle, a substantial letter which

has caused him considerable

1:03:541:04:00

disquiet, not to say consternation.

I would expect all organisations

1:04:001:04:05

dealing with honourable members or

their staff to respect the

1:04:051:04:13

constitutional responsibility of

members of Parliament to pursue

1:04:131:04:17

issues on behalf of their

constituents and to be both helpful

1:04:171:04:20

and courteous to them in doing so.

Just as I am sure we would expect

1:04:201:04:26

ourselves and staff to be in, in our

dealings with others. I can make no

1:04:261:04:33

comment on the substance of the

disagreement between the honourable

1:04:331:04:37

member and the chief executive of

circle. But I can confirm in the

1:04:371:04:42

words of the information

Commissioner guidance, the data

1:04:421:04:46

protection, processing of sensitive

personal data, collected

1:04:461:04:53

representatives order 2002, and

matter raised in the House some

1:04:531:04:59

months ago, upon which I ruled that

the time, provides a basis with the

1:04:591:05:07

disclosure of sensitive personal

data by organisations responding to

1:05:071:05:10

members acting on behalf of

individual constituents. The order

1:05:101:05:13

doesn't place an obligation on

organisations to disclose personal

1:05:131:05:20

sensitive data to members who raise

matters on behalf of constituents.

1:05:201:05:24

However, it provides a legal basis

for doing so and removes unnecessary

1:05:241:05:29

bureaucracy and the late.

Consequently, in the great majority

1:05:291:05:36

of cases, organisations will be able

to release sensitive, personal

1:05:361:05:41

information about a particular

constituent to the member without

1:05:411:05:45

advising the constituent of this,

provided the disclosure is

1:05:451:05:48

reasonable and necessary for the

purposes of, or in connection with,

1:05:481:05:55

responding to a request from the

constituent. I hope it is helpful to

1:05:551:05:59

the honourable gentleman and when

members people across to the

1:05:591:06:04

relevant offers to obtain a copy of

the official report and study my

1:06:041:06:09

response, they will similarly

concluded that it is helpful. If

1:06:091:06:15

there are no further points of order

and I see the beaming countenance of

1:06:151:06:21

the honourable gentleman and I wish

him all the best for Christmas and

1:06:211:06:24

the New Year. Seeing as there have

been so many festive greetings this

1:06:241:06:28

morning I should take the

opportunity to say now, to members

1:06:281:06:32

who will not be here much later, I

wish them all a Merry Christmas.

1:06:321:06:36

Thank them for their huge and

unstinting efforts over this year

1:06:361:06:41

and express the confident

expectation and hope they will

1:06:411:06:46

redouble them next. We now come to

the backbench debate on Russian

1:06:461:06:52

interference in UK politics and

society. A considerable number of

1:06:521:06:58

members wish to speak in this

debate. There will be three, front

1:06:581:07:04

bench speeches towards the end and

therefore I think I can say with

1:07:041:07:08

some confidence, the opening speech

by the right honourable gentleman, a

1:07:081:07:15

very senior denizen of the House and

formerly deputy leader of it, will

1:07:151:07:19

not exceed 15 minutes. Mr Tom brake.

Thank you, I will seek to stay

1:07:191:07:27

within your limits and hope to gain

some credit for it in the near

1:07:271:07:31

future. This is a very welcome

opportunity to debate this subject

1:07:311:07:35

and I thank the backbench business

committee for making the time

1:07:351:07:40

available and the colleagues who

supported the bed. I am pleased we

1:07:401:07:45

have a very good representation of

senior members here who have a

1:07:451:07:49

long-standing interest in the

subject of Russia. The premise of

1:07:491:07:53

this debate is the UK is at risk of

neglecting the threat Russia poses

1:07:531:07:59

and I would argue Russia is a clear

and present danger. It presents a

1:07:591:08:03

threat to our democracy. Some may

consider that to be alarmist, but I

1:08:031:08:08

hope to explain why it is not. I am

not going to be able to cover, in

1:08:081:08:13

the 15 minutes, all areas of

concern, such as the impact of dirty

1:08:131:08:18

Russian money in the UK and the UK

Government's apparent unwillingness

1:08:181:08:22

to hunt it down or the extent to

which the energy industry is

1:08:221:08:29

vulnerable to Russian takeovers or

leveraged, or the appropriateness of

1:08:291:08:36

the London Stock Exchange floating

EN plus. But I suspect other members

1:08:361:08:40

will contribute to this debate who

will pick up on those issues. Why do

1:08:401:08:44

I make this alarmist statement about

Russia? First of all, clearly there

1:08:441:08:49

have been attempts by the Russians

to influence the outcome of a number

1:08:491:08:54

of elections. According to the Henry

Jackson Society, there isn't one

1:08:541:08:59

smoking gun, but it is a case of

joining up the dots and Russia does

1:08:591:09:03

have a history of interference. The

threat is not new, it has been

1:09:031:09:07

around for a decade, especially in

the stony and and Georgia elections

1:09:071:09:13

in 2008 and 2009. There was the

well-publicised Russian interference

1:09:131:09:20

mainly post-Scottish independence

referendum where they tried to

1:09:201:09:25

discredit the result of the

election. We have seen in the US,

1:09:251:09:29

the most famous example of side

interference through the activities

1:09:291:09:34

of the Internet research agency

which spent over $2 million on

1:09:341:09:36

activity in America alone over the

last two years. That was funding

1:09:361:09:43

directly authorised from the

Kremlin. There is a pattern of

1:09:431:09:48

behaviour which suggests Russia will

have interfered in the EU referendum

1:09:481:09:51

as well. I will give way. .

He

referred to this having taken place

1:09:511:09:58

over the last decade. Hasn't this

been the pattern of behaviour since

1:09:581:10:04

the Bolshevik coup 100 years ago?

As

I said earlier, I only have 15

1:10:041:10:11

minutes in which to contribute to

this debate, whilst I agree with

1:10:111:10:14

him, we could go back a lot further.

He may wish to do so, I don't know

1:10:141:10:21

if he is making a speech in this

debate. But I am focusing on recent

1:10:211:10:24

activity. This information emerged

last month about hundreds of Twitter

1:10:241:10:32

accounts probably run from St

Petersburg. And it showed at least

1:10:321:10:39

419 fake accounts tweeted about

Brexit, a total of just under 3500

1:10:391:10:46

times. That was mostly after the

referendum had taken place, rather

1:10:461:10:50

than before. Research at city

University from October showed there

1:10:501:10:54

was a 13 13,500 strong army and

social media at around the time of

1:10:541:11:03

the referendum and the roads posted

no less than city 5000 tweets about

1:11:031:11:10

the referendum showing a clear slant

towards the Leader of the House

1:11:101:11:16

campaign. Although there was no

evidence of any Russian involvement.

1:11:161:11:21

He has mentioned about Twitter so

far and most of the hard evidence we

1:11:211:11:24

have seems to come from Twitter. But

I wonder if he agrees part of the

1:11:241:11:28

reason why the evidence comes from

Twitter is because Facebook don't

1:11:281:11:33

cooperate in the way I which I

believe they should do in order to

1:11:331:11:37

get to the root of these particular

problems?

I am indeed, going to come

1:11:371:11:44

onto Facebook and some negative and

positive things about their

1:11:441:11:48

activities. One thing I should say

is, I am not attacking the Russians,

1:11:481:11:54

I am attacking the Russian

government. The other thing I should

1:11:541:11:59

say, some of the activities the

Russian government, or people

1:11:591:12:03

associated with them, might have

been involved with, might be

1:12:031:12:07

activities of the State actors are

conducting as well. This isn't just

1:12:071:12:11

about Russia, although this is

clearly the subject of the debate.

1:12:111:12:16

The US has a gaping vulnerability

for operations carried out by the

1:12:161:12:21

USA and other malicious actors

across social media environment. In

1:12:211:12:25

the USA, just one account from the

Troll factory in St Petersburg

1:12:251:12:30

managed to amass 120,000 followers,

interacted with the tram campaign

1:12:301:12:35

leaders and was quoted in newspapers

like the Washington Post as the

1:12:351:12:39

voice of the American right. I asked

the minister whether he is happy the

1:12:391:12:45

UK has adequate defences against

such interference? Whilst Aaron

1:12:451:12:49

Banks and Nigel Farage may be Putin

fans, President Putin is not a

1:12:491:12:54

friend of this country. I will give

way in a second. Russia will only

1:12:541:13:00

have interfered in any elections

here to damage the UK and indeed the

1:13:001:13:04

EU security.

The honourable member

is making a brilliant point. Has he

1:13:041:13:13

noticed the American national

Security strategy published this

1:13:131:13:17

week specifically recognises this

threat, whereas our national

1:13:171:13:21

security strategy, does not?

It is a

good point and do something I will

1:13:211:13:27

come onto. Clearly it is a source of

concern. There is no soft power in

1:13:271:13:34

Putin's eyes and the use of social

media to interfere is and weaponised

1:13:341:13:39

tool, as far as he is concerned. The

covert interference is supplemented

1:13:391:13:44

by more overt attempts to create

immediate counter narrative. We're

1:13:441:13:50

now talking about Russia today. The

chief editor is on the record

1:13:501:13:57

comparing it to the Ministry of

Defence, saying we are fighting an

1:13:571:14:00

information war against the whole of

the Western world, referring to the

1:14:001:14:06

information weapon which is choosing

critical moments and saying about

1:14:061:14:09

their task in peacetime is to build

an audience so they can fight the

1:14:091:14:14

information war better next time.

Not surprisingly, Chatham House and

1:14:141:14:22

Henry Jackson C RT as a tool to

destabilise the nation from the

1:14:221:14:27

Kremlin. RT was breech of the come

because of stories about Assad and

1:14:271:14:37

chemical weapons. But off gum have

never enforced sanctions as and when

1:14:371:14:44

it was appropriate. In terms of the

numbers, Ofcom have sanctioned 87

1:14:441:14:56

broadcasters, RT not been subject of

sanction over that time. So that was

1:14:561:15:01

ten years up until March 20 17th and

found broadcasters have breached the

1:15:011:15:07

broadcasting code 2500 times. I

don't think anyone is advocating

1:15:071:15:12

shutting down RT, what I am

advocating is ensuring it abides by

1:15:121:15:17

the broadcasting rules and if it

doesn't, appropriate action is taken

1:15:171:15:21

every time, I would suggest, by

Ofcom. A further question, I would

1:15:211:15:26

like to know if the Minister is

happy with Ofcom's actions and

1:15:261:15:31

things if they do consistently

pursued RT for breaches in the wake

1:15:311:15:36

he would like them to. And the other

channels, which I would like Ofcom

1:15:361:15:43

to be more active in pursuing when

threats are made to the particular

1:15:431:15:46

community on some of the channels

that broadcast here. Is he happy

1:15:461:15:50

with the actions of Ofcom?

1:15:501:15:56

I do not think any British

parliamentarian should take money

1:15:561:15:59

from RT and I do not think they

should be appearing on RT. The only

1:15:591:16:04

exception to that rule might be if

they have a completely unedited, say

1:16:041:16:11

what they want, not going to get

chopped, edited, cut by RT. Apart

1:16:111:16:17

from that, I do not think anyone

here or in the House of Lords should

1:16:171:16:22

ever appear on that channel. The

only time RT ever contact me is when

1:16:221:16:26

I have said something critical about

the Government, I am happy to say

1:16:261:16:30

things critical about the Government

on the BBC, and RT are trying to

1:16:301:16:35

create an agenda about attacking the

Government at every turn, I will not

1:16:351:16:39

facilitate that process. The next

issue I want to touch briefly is

1:16:391:16:44

whether the Russians or infiltrating

or leaking content from political

1:16:441:16:49

party systems. We know what they did

in relation to the Democrats and

1:16:491:16:54

they also hurt the Republicans but

they only released the information

1:16:541:16:58

in relation to the Democrats -- they

also hacked. We know they attempted

1:16:581:17:03

to infiltrate Emmanuel Macron's team

setting up a number of websites with

1:17:031:17:08

pseudo- official titles that could

e-mail members of staff to try to

1:17:081:17:12

get them to click on links and

provide back door access to their

1:17:121:17:18

systems. I understand Macron

defeated that by inserting some fake

1:17:181:17:22

news into the content they were

trying to access so the story was

1:17:221:17:26

demolished because of the

inconsistencies within the story

1:17:261:17:30

itself. Of course, members will know

Macron had a more aggressive, more

1:17:301:17:36

muscular stance towards Russia than

any of the other political parties

1:17:361:17:40

in the French presidential election

and that is why I believe he was

1:17:401:17:43

targeted in the way the others were

not although I understand the other

1:17:431:17:46

French political parties were also

targeted but the Russians were

1:17:461:17:55

interested in releasing information

related to him in particular. Mr

1:17:551:17:58

Putin has said they are not

necessarily associated with the

1:17:581:18:02

government, patriotic hackers. But

one has to suspect they have got the

1:18:021:18:12

endorsement of the Russian

government because they could clamp

1:18:121:18:16

down on the so-called patriotic

hackers if they wanted to. I wanted

1:18:161:18:19

to ask the Minister, very easy

question, I'm trying to make them

1:18:191:18:23

clear so I know the box can provide

a written answer for the Minister to

1:18:231:18:28

read out on the record straightaway,

will the Minister give consideration

1:18:281:18:31

to making UK political parties part

of the critical national

1:18:311:18:36

infrastructure and the implications

of taking such a step? To be able to

1:18:361:18:40

ascertain what the level of threat

is, we do have to assess it

1:18:401:18:45

accurately. Otherwise I do risk

coming across as a conspiracy

1:18:451:18:50

theorist. I know I do already on

Brexit on that issue, but I do not

1:18:501:18:55

want to become the person known for

conspiracy theories. The difficulty

1:18:551:19:01

we have at the moment and it is

because frankly no one has

1:19:011:19:06

investigated it properly yet and it

is only one that has been done we

1:19:061:19:09

will know and I regret the fact it

took so long for the ISC to be

1:19:091:19:15

reconstituted, I welcome the fact

they have stated Russia will be the

1:19:151:19:20

topic they will focus on, but I

would like to ask the Minister

1:19:201:19:23

whether he thinks they should give

priority to that and also that he

1:19:231:19:28

would ensure or want them to work

effectively with the Electoral

1:19:281:19:31

Commission so that the Electoral

Commission cannot... The places

1:19:311:19:39

where they cannot go, the security

services or ISC can. An inquiry

1:19:391:19:45

would help us establish accurately

the level of threat. We know that

1:19:451:19:48

the Facebook... Picking up on the

earlier intervention, they have been

1:19:481:19:54

asked by the Electoral Commission to

look at examples of paid ads from

1:19:541:19:58

Russia but they were not asked to

look at the use of trolls or bots.

1:19:581:20:05

We know it is a very incomplete

richer. The Russians apparently

1:20:051:20:13

spent £17 50 on advertising, does

not quite sound right to me -- is

1:20:131:20:18

very incomplete picture.

We are not

talking about a few Twitter or

1:20:181:20:24

Facebook accounts, in the case of

the David Jones account, more than

1:20:241:20:29

100,000 followers, listed as one of

the most influential Twitter

1:20:291:20:33

accounts in the last general

election, yet it purports to be from

1:20:331:20:37

Southampton and tweets at the

Russian time zone, surely the social

1:20:371:20:43

media companies have a greater role

to play in identifying fake accounts

1:20:431:20:47

for the integrity of the debate we

should all enjoy online?

I agree

1:20:471:20:52

entirely and I do not know whether

she was but I think I have engaged

1:20:521:20:57

in exchanges with David Jones and I

clearly will not continue to do so

1:20:571:21:00

because he was a very prolific

tweeter, whatever he or she was, in

1:21:001:21:07

the campaign. As I understand,

according to Facebook, neither the

1:21:071:21:13

foreign & Commonwealth Office need a

-- or Number 10 have given advice as

1:21:131:21:20

to what to look for and if that is

correct, it is a concern. I hope the

1:21:201:21:24

Minister will concern.

-- I hope the

Minister will respond. The Americans

1:21:241:21:31

looked up 47 accounts, provided to

the inquiry by intelligence agencies

1:21:311:21:35

and the member is right to say our

agencies have only offered I think

1:21:351:21:40

one. The other risk we have to be

careful or if there is money

1:21:401:21:47

transferred onshore, some of the

illicit money may have come from UK

1:21:471:21:53

onshore accounts.

I thank him for

that intervention, another aspect of

1:21:531:21:58

this I will not be able to dwell on

at great length in the few minutes

1:21:581:22:02

that remain, but Facebook or doing

work on add transparency and I

1:22:021:22:08

welcome that and I would be

comfortable with the idea of having

1:22:081:22:12

a printed and published on that

political ads I place and I think

1:22:121:22:17

that would help people to understand

who was actually promoting

1:22:171:22:19

themselves. I wonder if the Minister

would support that particular

1:22:191:22:25

suggestion. And the issue of

authentication. On Twitter, I and I

1:22:251:22:30

suspect every member here is there

with a bluetit on Twitter, confirmed

1:22:301:22:37

as real people -- blue tick. And

maybe Facebook should do something

1:22:371:22:46

similar. So we know they are not

just sitting in an office block on

1:22:461:22:52

the outskirts of Moscow. We need to

resource our response appropriately

1:22:521:22:59

and I have concerns as a minister,

when I had dealings with the

1:22:591:23:03

Electoral Commission, they do not

have the resources to do this and if

1:23:031:23:06

they are trying to get into activity

abroad, clearly that is not within

1:23:061:23:10

their remit and they would not have

any expertise, so we need to see how

1:23:101:23:15

they can access that and the

Minister is nodding so hopefully

1:23:151:23:18

will be able to clarify. I hope he

is confident that the Electoral

1:23:181:23:26

Commission have the resources and

the expertise or can at least access

1:23:261:23:29

it. I give way.

I'm grateful for him

giving way. Can I agree with him and

1:23:291:23:36

ask him to emphasise this point

about the resources to investigate?

1:23:361:23:41

There is a danger that we are

sidetracked into the social media

1:23:411:23:45

side of this one ultimately the more

important thing is the money. Does

1:23:451:23:49

he believe that the Electoral

Commission is sufficiently equipped,

1:23:491:23:57

resourced and empowered to properly

follow the money? To ascertain where

1:23:571:24:02

donations come from, whether the

original donors really own the money

1:24:021:24:08

and whether they need more powers or

the agencies and the Electoral

1:24:081:24:16

Commission together need more powers

to properly tracked the finance?

My

1:24:161:24:22

short answer is, no, and clearly

that is something that needs to be

1:24:221:24:25

acted on. Not just political

parties, it is tracking the money

1:24:251:24:30

associated with political movements

in terms of the leave campaign or

1:24:301:24:36

perhaps Momentum, having some

clarity about whether money is

1:24:361:24:39

coming from and so on. We would all

benefit from that, if was more

1:24:391:24:43

transparency. I will give way... One

more time, quickly.

Until we get a

1:24:431:24:54

change in mindset among these

bodies, additional resources will

1:24:541:25:00

not have the necessary impact, they

have got to have the will and

1:25:001:25:06

necessary policy framework and the

resources may follow that if they

1:25:061:25:09

are not sufficient and that applies

not just the Electoral Commission

1:25:091:25:12

but right the way across the

agencies of government.

I thank him

1:25:121:25:16

for that and yes, I think this

debate is partly about giving them

1:25:161:25:19

the will and telling them they have

the backing of Parliament to take

1:25:191:25:23

the action needed. I will just

conclude by reading out the few

1:25:231:25:27

questions I had left for the

Minister.

1:25:271:25:38

Have been generous in taking

interventions. As I understand it,

1:25:391:25:42

the Government have not tasked the

intelligence and security services

1:25:421:25:44

to investigate Russian subversion as

a high priority, Russia are a tier

1:25:441:25:46

one threat but the strategy does not

mention defence against Russian

1:25:461:25:49

interference in our political

system, will he press for that to be

1:25:491:25:52

changed? On the funding of political

movements, does he agree that

1:25:521:25:57

financial and accountability for

political movements must be improved

1:25:571:26:01

as well? On the inquiry, will the

Minister confirm the UK Government

1:26:011:26:06

will proactively seek and supply any

relevant information to the inquiry,

1:26:061:26:11

rather than sitting and waiting to

be approached? And finally, social

1:26:111:26:16

media companies, they are indeed on

a positive side team to work with

1:26:161:26:21

governments to try to close some of

the loopholes we have referred to

1:26:211:26:25

today. I think we need to make sure

Russia are held publicly to account,

1:26:251:26:29

whether that is through Ofcom,

ministers confirming they know, as

1:26:291:26:34

they have done in relation to the

NHS hacking by North Korea, when

1:26:341:26:38

they know the Russians have been

actively hacking our systems, they

1:26:381:26:42

should make that clear. The ISC need

to come forward with the report.

1:26:421:26:48

Madam Deputy Speaker, I have been

very pleased to have the opportunity

1:26:481:26:51

to raise this debate and what I hope

is that the House will give the

1:26:511:26:57

Minister that if he needs to go away

and ensure that in respect of

1:26:571:27:00

government departments, it is an FCO

Cabinet Office and DC MS issue, that

1:27:001:27:07

is part of the problem, that they

will grab the bull by the horns and

1:27:071:27:12

make sure Russia, because of the

threat it prevents to the UK, is

1:27:121:27:14

dealt with with the degree of

seriousness that is required.

The

1:27:141:27:21

question is that this House has

considered Russian interference in

1:27:211:27:27

UK politics and society. As Mr

Speaker said, there are a number of

1:27:271:27:32

colleagues wishing to contribute to

this debate and to the later debate

1:27:321:27:37

so I am afraid I am going to have to

impose an immediate five minute time

1:27:371:27:44

limit and I would urge colleagues to

be very aware that if they take

1:27:441:27:48

interventions, it is likely it

reduces the time for others. Damian

1:27:481:27:51

Collins.

It is a pleasure to follow

the honourable member, I

1:27:511:27:57

congratulate him on security --

securing the debate. He raised many

1:27:571:28:08

points and I would be interesting to

hear what the Minister has to say

1:28:081:28:11

about the important questions later

on. This feels very timely to me

1:28:111:28:17

because on Tuesday, the Digital,

culture, media and sport select

1:28:171:28:21

committee held our first evidence

session on fake news and

1:28:211:28:24

dissemination, looking in particular

at Russian activity in Catalonia

1:28:241:28:28

around the referendum, some of my

staff tweeted a link on my Twitter

1:28:281:28:35

account where you could watch the

hearing, then according to an

1:28:351:28:39

article today, a Russian account

shared a link with the threat we

1:28:391:28:46

should be careful because we could

all be wiped out in a single stroke.

1:28:461:28:49

I do not know if that was the entire

nation or the select committee,

1:28:491:28:55

nevertheless, it was interesting. On

a previous occasion when I happen to

1:28:551:28:57

share a link with an interview I had

had with Hugo Rifkind, based on the

1:28:571:29:02

facts of the US Senate investigation

into Russian activity in the

1:29:021:29:07

presidential election, the official

Twitter account of the Russian

1:29:071:29:09

Embassy in London compared me to

Joseph Goebbels in seeking to spread

1:29:091:29:14

big lies about what Russia is doing.

Let us not be under any illusion,

1:29:141:29:19

not just anecdotally, but also in

terms of the systematic way Russia

1:29:191:29:23

is using information as a weapon of

war and seeking to intervene in the

1:29:231:29:27

democratic processes of other

countries. It is undermining people

1:29:271:29:30

was my confidence in public

institutions, causing division and

1:29:301:29:34

hatred and it is part of its

strategy of breaking down

1:29:341:29:38

cooperation between countries and

states in western Europe. That is

1:29:381:29:41

what Russia is doing. I want to

focus very specifically on the role

1:29:411:29:46

of the social media companies and

the way in which they are responding

1:29:461:29:51

to the different investigations. My

select committee wrote to Facebook

1:29:511:29:54

asking them for evidence, not just

of paid for advertising through the

1:29:541:30:00

service in the referendum and the

last general election here, we asked

1:30:001:30:05

them to identify activity by fake

accounts across all the platform as

1:30:051:30:09

well. Much of the activity in

America was based on pages set up to

1:30:091:30:15

promote links to sites where fake

news and disinformation was being

1:30:151:30:19

shared and also to organise fake

events as well. It is important we

1:30:191:30:22

understand the breadth of what is

being done. Facebook's response so

1:30:221:30:26

far is that only a tiny amount of

money... It isn't the based on

1:30:261:30:34

looking at the accounts identified

as part of the American

1:30:341:30:37

investigation. Those accounts

themselves were given to Facebook by

1:30:371:30:41

the US intelligence services.

Facebook had never proactively look

1:30:411:30:44

on their site for evidence of this

activity. Their position in this

1:30:441:30:48

country is they will not do that,

they will not, they are refusing to

1:30:481:30:52

conduct the research themselves. As

the member said, it must be possible

1:30:521:30:59

for them to look at the geographical

location of accounts, the

1:30:591:31:03

characteristics of accounts where

information is being shared from.

1:31:031:31:07

That is how they make money, you are

right. To understand how to target

1:31:071:31:11

users with information based on what

they think they are interested in.

1:31:111:31:17

They could conduct preliminary

research to look for the

1:31:171:31:20

characteristics of fake accounts

linked to Russian agencies based on

1:31:201:31:23

their platform and at the moment

they are refusing to.

1:31:231:31:32

Facebook quarterly money worth $4

billion.

Marks a caller said

1:31:321:31:49

tackling this issue would hit the

bottom line. Facebook were only

1:31:491:31:56

responding to questions put by the

Electoral Commission. A narrower

1:31:561:32:00

focus because of the Riemann

Electoral Commission has. They are

1:32:001:32:04

not answering questions put to it as

give her more evidence regarding

1:32:041:32:09

Russian linked activity across the

site including in pages, Group

1:32:091:32:14

accounts and profiles, not just

restricted to advertising. We have a

1:32:141:32:17

right to receive information from

them and they can conduct research.

1:32:171:32:21

They conducted their own research

looking at fake accounts during the

1:32:211:32:26

French presidential election which

led to the deletion of 30,000 fake

1:32:261:32:30

accounts and profiles. If they can

do it in France, they can do it in

1:32:301:32:34

the UK. But at the moment they will

not do it. If their position is they

1:32:341:32:39

will only respond to official

intelligence directing them towards

1:32:391:32:43

fake activity, our intelligence

services need to be on the lookout,

1:32:431:32:46

if that is the open trigger to get

Facebook to act.

The

1:32:461:32:57

national-security adviser said this

was not the main priority and indeed

1:32:571:33:01

just spoke generally about security

threats, would he agree this should

1:33:011:33:05

be the number one priority?

Absolutely, it must be a major

1:33:051:33:10

priority. We have to recognise

Russia is engaged in a multilayered

1:33:101:33:14

strategy to cause instability in the

West. Information and fake news is

1:33:141:33:19

one of the tools they use. In the

select committee this week, when you

1:33:191:33:24

look at the Catalan referendum,

Russian newsagents, RT and Sputnik

1:33:241:33:29

where the fourth largest sources of

information, all linking the

1:33:291:33:34

separatist cause.

I grew up in

Germany and when we were referring

1:33:341:33:46

to Russia and funding German

terrorism at the time, we've seen as

1:33:461:33:50

paranoid fantasist. The wall came

down, our fears were reconfirmed

1:33:501:33:58

when the file is opened. It must be

a national recognition across the

1:33:581:34:03

board and people themselves need to

see this as a real threat.

1:34:031:34:08

Absolutely, people must take it as a

real threat. It's not enough for the

1:34:081:34:12

tech companies to sit back and say

we won't do anything unless you come

1:34:121:34:15

with the evidence. We're not

prepared to act will conduct their

1:34:151:34:20

own research. I don't believe as

rather individual users of these

1:34:201:34:23

platforms understand the way in

which they can be targeted and the

1:34:231:34:26

reason they the information they

receive. It creates confusing echo

1:34:261:34:34

chambers, and people are

systematically targeted. Not just

1:34:341:34:36

with fake news but partisan content

and it is being done by foreign

1:34:361:34:42

actors. If we don't see this as a

threat to the Democratic

1:34:421:34:46

institutions of this country, we are

deluded ourselves and the threat to

1:34:461:34:50

the Western way of life. Tech

companies need to do more. Same

1:34:501:34:54

issues apply to Twitter. They have

analysed accounts and information

1:34:541:34:58

given to it by the US intelligence

services. More work has been done

1:34:581:35:03

because it is more open platform and

because Facebook is close, it is

1:35:031:35:08

not. The tech companies need to do

more and it has to be a higher

1:35:081:35:17

priority for the intelligence

services as well.

It gives me a

1:35:171:35:23

enormous pleasure to follow the

honourable gentleman, let me commend

1:35:231:35:26

him for the work he's doing. I wrote

to his committee at the beginning of

1:35:261:35:30

the suggesting such an enquiry and I

am delighted they doing one. When I

1:35:301:35:36

started asking questions about this

I was treated as a bit of a crank.

1:35:361:35:39

But I am pleased to say we have

multiple investigations and

1:35:391:35:43

enquiries, including that of the

Honourable members committee. We

1:35:431:35:50

have multiple investigations by the

Electoral Commission we have the

1:35:501:35:52

molar investigation. What strikes me

and worries me about this, they are

1:35:521:35:57

independent Parliamentary bodies.

They knock the government,

1:35:571:36:03

responsible for maintaining our

security and defence is on the

1:36:031:36:05

government has the power to get to

the truth and the bottom of all of

1:36:051:36:08

this. I will restrict all of my

marks because I put a lot of the

1:36:081:36:14

evidence in the public domain. I do

hope the Minister will address and

1:36:141:36:19

explain what seems to be the

government's in in dealing with

1:36:191:36:25

this, why aren't the government

dealing with this themselves, while

1:36:251:36:31

leaving it to others. The central

question which has been raised, has

1:36:311:36:39

the government tasks to our

intelligence and security services

1:36:391:36:43

with investigating Russian

subversion as a high priority? The

1:36:431:36:46

information I have is that the

government has not. If that is the

1:36:461:36:51

case, why not? If Bush is classified

as a Tier one threat but the 6-point

1:36:511:36:57

National Security strategy doesn't

mention defence against Russian

1:36:571:37:00

interference in our political

system, it's not good enough. I

1:37:001:37:04

would be grateful if the Minister

could listen to these questions or

1:37:041:37:08

his officials can so they can pass

him the answers. What is the

1:37:081:37:11

government doing to support the work

of the committee and his robust

1:37:111:37:16

response to the inadequate response

from the tech companies, showing

1:37:161:37:20

nothing short of contempt for

Parliament. He needs a government

1:37:201:37:24

and intelligence services to support

the important work he's doing. What

1:37:241:37:29

is the government itself doing to

get the tech companies to reveal ad

1:37:291:37:34

purchases and make it easier to

block social media accounts? What

1:37:341:37:41

discussion has UK had with UK media

companies with the voluntary

1:37:411:37:45

agreement reached in France not to

report materials that had been

1:37:451:37:50

accessed by illegal hacking. What

cooperation is the government giving

1:37:501:37:55

the enquiry? When the Foreign

Secretary last answered a question

1:37:551:37:58

for me on this, he said he had

received no request for help from

1:37:581:38:02

Muller. Given several of the senior

figures who have been indicted by

1:38:021:38:08

Muller, conducted their central

activities in Britain. It is

1:38:081:38:12

unbelievable and inconceivable to

me, that there could not have been

1:38:121:38:16

contacts between the US

investigators and authorities and

1:38:161:38:20

the British authorities. So either

our own agencies are not keeping the

1:38:201:38:24

Foreign Secretary in the loop or he

missed -- misspoke in his reply to

1:38:241:38:33

me. I have tabled several written

questions about contacts between

1:38:331:38:39

government ministers and the

Institute which are still

1:38:391:38:42

outstanding and I will be grateful

if the Minister could chase of

1:38:421:38:46

replies. Will he, or will he ask our

intelligence and security services

1:38:461:38:50

to look into the roles of Vladimir

Antonov, the subject of an EU arrest

1:38:501:38:54

warrant and on to Rome and above,

and any relationship they may have

1:38:541:38:58

had in the past with the former Ukip

leader, Nigel Farage. Though he also

1:38:581:39:04

care to comment on reports that

broke just before this debate

1:39:041:39:08

started, that a man arrested in

Ukraine, suspected of being a

1:39:081:39:14

Russian spy, was photographed with

our Prime Minister in Downing Street

1:39:141:39:16

just back in the summer. Finally, as

already mentioned, this is one for

1:39:161:39:22

the party leaders and the whips. But

surely, it's time for British

1:39:221:39:27

politicians to stop making idiots of

themselves, by appearing on and

1:39:271:39:32

taking money from Kremlin propaganda

outfits like Russia today or

1:39:321:39:36

Sputnik. It pains me to say there

are still some of these useful

1:39:361:39:44

idiots on the left in British and

international politics. My message

1:39:441:39:48

to them is, Russia is a nasty,

nationalistic, ultraconservative,

1:39:481:39:54

corrupt clapped off pushy, it is

racist and homophobic and makes in a

1:39:541:39:59

secret of wanting to undermine our

democracy. If this debate is nothing

1:39:591:40:03

but give the government a bit of

warmth in tackling this threat I get

1:40:031:40:08

some reality in our political

discourse, it will be up useful

1:40:081:40:14

debate indeed.

We're coming up to

Christmas which marks the birth of

1:40:141:40:19

Christ and the bringing of hope to

mankind. But we had the dissolution

1:40:191:40:26

of the Soviet Union on the 26th of

December 19 91. When I was elected,

1:40:261:40:32

270 people lived under direct rule

in elections of any real value of

1:40:321:40:37

the Soviet Union and a further 137

million in the other countries in

1:40:371:40:42

the Eastern bloc of Europe. On the

26th of December 1991, Gorbachev

1:40:421:40:48

went on television to announce this

long nightmare was over. As he went

1:40:481:40:51

in to sign, the dissolution of the

Soviet Union, his pen didn't work

1:40:511:40:57

and he had to borrow a working pen

of a CNN camera crew filming the

1:40:571:41:01

event. We should believe in the

Southern tree of Nations, the

1:41:011:41:06

principle of non-interference, it in

the internal affairs of other

1:41:061:41:10

nations. We should be proud of the

park this country played in the

1:41:101:41:14

downfall of the USSR and communism

in Europe. Alongside Saint Paul II,

1:41:141:41:21

Margaret Thatcher and President

Reagan, we were instrumental in

1:41:211:41:27

disbanding totalitarianism. At the

same time, the current Leader of the

1:41:271:41:31

Opposition and the Shadow Home

Secretary were going on motorbike

1:41:311:41:34

tours of East Germany. If he might

have been accused of interfering in

1:41:341:41:39

the internal affairs of the Soviet

Union, we can be proud of it. In

1:41:391:41:43

those years, there were dozens and

dozens of Soviet defections of

1:41:431:41:48

eastern Germany and Poland, they

were posing a direct threat to our

1:41:481:41:51

freedom and democracy. But here, we

are talking about alleged Russian

1:41:511:41:58

interference in UK politics and

society. We hear things like

1:41:581:42:03

undermining our democracy. Can we

look at the evidence. The Oxford

1:42:031:42:08

Internet Institute... I will give

way.

Hasn't the current head of the

1:42:081:42:15

SSB only this week outlined that in

fact they see themselves as the

1:42:151:42:20

spiritual heirs of the checker and

the KGB. Doesn't that tell you all

1:42:201:42:24

you need to know about them.

I am

not seeking to defend the Putin

1:42:241:42:32

regime, there is so much in Russia

that is not perfect. I was a member

1:42:321:42:38

of the presidential elections, it is

not a perfect democracy, but let's

1:42:381:42:42

keep a sense of proportion. So much

progress has been made, Russia is an

1:42:421:42:47

infinitely freer and better place

than it was under the Soviet Union.

1:42:471:42:52

But it's not perfect, it's not

pleasant and it's not all sort of

1:42:521:42:56

democracy and I do not defend the

Putin regime, but I want to get a

1:42:561:43:01

sense of proportion in this debased

and look at the evidence from the

1:43:011:43:06

Oxford Internet Institute, part of

Oxford University. They into

1:43:061:43:11

investigated over 100 Russian linked

Twitter account in the run-up to the

1:43:111:43:15

EU referendum. The results are worth

noting. They found, first, that

1:43:151:43:20

Russian Twitter accounts shared with

the public, contributed little to

1:43:201:43:26

the overall Brexit conversation.

Russian news content was not widely

1:43:261:43:31

shared among Twitter users. And only

a tiny proportion of YouTube content

1:43:311:43:37

was of clear Russian origin. The

fact is, the majority of the UK

1:43:371:43:43

population, by a significant extent,

is not on Twitter.

I am familiar

1:43:431:43:49

with the study he is referring to,

but that is narrowly focused and

1:43:491:43:55

there is the evidence of 13,000 Bots

accounts on Twitter link to Russia

1:43:551:44:02

that were deleted shortly after the

referendum. Read the technical

1:44:021:44:07

companies to be co-operating fully

so we can understand the scale of

1:44:071:44:11

it.

Of course we must keep a sense

of proportion but I'm quoting from a

1:44:111:44:17

well established Institute. I want

to give another point of view, which

1:44:171:44:20

is fair enough in this debate. The

majority of the UK population are

1:44:201:44:25

not on Twitter. And of those users,

they don't even login daily.

1:44:251:44:30

Facebook did an investigation into

the tourist Russian control factor,

1:44:301:44:36

called the Internet research agency

and they found this. If this is the

1:44:361:44:42

best Russia can do to overturn our

longer established parliamentary

1:44:421:44:47

democracy, I think probably that we

can rest at ease. No, I am going to

1:44:471:44:53

finish now. The paranoid tendency to

see a red under every bed is very

1:44:531:44:58

much alive. There is an explanation.

There is an explanation for this

1:44:581:45:03

paranoia. 'S victory, the success of

Brexit in the referendum. Things are

1:45:031:45:09

not going the way of liberals and

they cannot accept that people, the

1:45:091:45:15

workers even, the workers are

abandoning their ideology. Presuming

1:45:151:45:19

they ever agreed with it.

1:45:191:45:26

The left has a psychological need to

find an excuse for why do people are

1:45:261:45:30

misbehaving. I will not give way.

Russia is that excuse today. Perhaps

1:45:301:45:36

the reality is the voters might not

agree with the established liberal

1:45:361:45:41

consensus on Brexit, perhaps voters

in Britain, America, Poland,

1:45:411:45:46

elsewhere, they have legitimate

concerns they feel are not being

1:45:461:45:49

addressed, these concerns must be

addressed and we in this House must

1:45:491:45:53

be the ones to address them. This

was the wisdom shown by Disraeli and

1:45:531:45:58

others in expanding the electorate,

this is the British constitution

1:45:581:46:06

that adapts, evolves and bends

instead of breaking. The fact is the

1:46:061:46:09

referendum was a free and fair vote

of the British people and if there

1:46:091:46:12

was foreign interference, it was so

ineffective, I doubt it made any

1:46:121:46:17

difference at all to the final

result. It was not the work, Madam

1:46:171:46:23

Deputy Speaker, of foreigners

somewhere distant plugging at

1:46:231:46:28

computers and unleashing Twitter

bots, authority comes from above but

1:46:281:46:32

power comes from below and it came

from the people. If we do not

1:46:321:46:36

accommodate the legitimate concerns

of ordinary people, we undermine the

1:46:361:46:41

foundations of our parliamentary

democracy. We might find ourselves

1:46:411:46:44

replaced and irrelevant, as Carl

Gorbachev did in 1991.

-- as

1:46:441:46:54

Gorbachev did. There has always been

a group of people on the left of

1:46:541:46:57

British politics who were useful

idiots for authoritarian communism,

1:46:571:47:05

that included people who on many

other issues were very sensible, I

1:47:051:47:09

refer to Soviet communism and new

civilisation is written in 1930.

1:47:091:47:19

There have also been a group of

people on the far right in British

1:47:191:47:22

politics who are admirers of the

strong leader and the national

1:47:221:47:29

identity and the patriotic purpose

of the Russian or in the Soviet

1:47:291:47:38

regime. They loved Uncle Joe and

today many like Vladimir Putin.

1:47:381:47:43

Putin has over recent years tried to

develop a relationship with various

1:47:431:47:49

groups within Europe for his own

national interest and ideological

1:47:491:47:55

goals. He has used in that process a

man, and ideologist, from the far

1:47:551:48:03

right who has connections with the

American Bob Wright and also had

1:48:031:48:07

connections with people including

Nick Griffin, Nigel Farage, Marine

1:48:071:48:15

Le Pen -- with the American alt

right. They attended conferences in

1:48:151:48:21

Russia. You can read the file

ideology he has tried to create some

1:48:211:48:30

kind of Eurasian monolith based upon

authoritarian ideology and crushing

1:48:301:48:42

religious minorities -- the vile

ideology. That is the point at the

1:48:421:48:47

essence of the Russian state, how is

it going to develop? Putin has used

1:48:471:48:55

this man and at one point, he was

referred to as Putin's Rasputin. I

1:48:551:49:02

think there's some concern in many

other European countries about this

1:49:021:49:10

kind of work. The European

Parliament on the 25th of November,

1:49:101:49:17

2016 carried a resolution by a very

large majority referring to Russia

1:49:171:49:22

using a wide range of tools to

challenge democratic values and

1:49:221:49:27

divide Europe. We have seen

different tools used at the

1:49:271:49:33

interference in the elections that

has already been mentioned, plus the

1:49:331:49:40

attempted coup in Montenegro, the

way in which the Hungarian regime

1:49:401:49:46

has been given support financially

by various forms of investment, and

1:49:461:49:52

I geologically, it then acts as a

Trojan horse in the EU against

1:49:521:49:59

actions on Russia because of the

invasion and annexation of Ukraine

1:49:591:50:03

-- and ideological. I will give way.

I thank him for his -- him

1:50:031:50:15

generously giving way. I believe it

is important to be aware of

1:50:151:50:19

beginnings. I was celebrating the

fall of the Berlin Wall, living

1:50:191:50:22

through cold war Germany, and I

hoped Russia had changed, but only a

1:50:221:50:27

year ago, I went back, I talk to

people who told me that

1:50:271:50:30

unfortunately Russia was now facing

the same threats and the same

1:50:301:50:35

problems they had faced in the cold

War.

Order. The honourable lady

1:50:351:50:42

needs to make a brief intervention,

there is a lot of pressure on time.

1:50:421:50:49

Yes, absolutely. The idea that there

is this fantastic, miraculous

1:50:491:50:55

transformation in 1989, 1990, it is

sadly not the case. There is an

1:50:551:51:04

authoritarian kleptocracy was the

word used earlier, there is a regime

1:51:041:51:07

where the leaders of the opposition

are locked up, where journalists

1:51:071:51:15

disappear or are killed, where

polonium is used to murder people on

1:51:151:51:21

the streets of London, and were the

Russian regime, the Russian

1:51:211:51:30

government, it is not a democracy in

any sense we understand it,

1:51:301:51:33

everybody knows that Vladimir Putin

is going to be president until 2024.

1:51:331:51:40

And everybody knows that there is a

regime there which will continue.

1:51:401:51:46

That is not democracy and there are

very serious flaws about that

1:51:461:51:54

society, but what is more serious is

the attempt to undermine cohesion

1:51:541:52:01

and its sow discord among Europeans

and within our society. In the time

1:52:011:52:07

left to me, I just referred to the

kind of tweets put out by the

1:52:071:52:12

Russian Embassy. They had the

European Union stockade on fire and

1:52:121:52:21

the giant Russian bear and the flag

flying over the European Union

1:52:211:52:25

stockade was the LGBT flag which

tells you all you need to know about

1:52:251:52:32

the ideology of the Russian

government and the Russian state.

1:52:321:52:35

These are not fringe elements, this

is the core of the government. I

1:52:351:52:42

refer members to the Foreign Affairs

Select Committee report in the last

1:52:421:52:46

Parliament published in March and

the Government's response to it, and

1:52:461:52:51

we have got to look seriously at

these questions. I do a lot of

1:52:511:52:55

tweets and I get quite a lot of

trolls. You can identify some of

1:52:551:53:00

them by the fact they have eight

numbers after the name because they

1:53:001:53:05

are produced by algorithms and they

come out very odd times in the night

1:53:051:53:09

and I often tweet back, what is the

weather like in Moscow? All of us

1:53:091:53:15

need to realise they are trying to

interfere in our politics, they are

1:53:151:53:21

trying to create discord and we need

to be vigilant and the Government

1:53:211:53:25

must do much more.

I congratulate

the honourable gentleman of course

1:53:251:53:33

Fulton on obtaining this debate.

There are some very serious issues

1:53:331:53:37

to discuss and to bring into the

public domain -- Carshalton. We need

1:53:371:53:43

to keep a sense of proportion. I

agree with the honourable gentleman

1:53:431:53:48

for Ilford South that Russia has not

fundamentally changed its character

1:53:481:53:52

since the days of the tsar and it

has always been somewhat paranoid

1:53:521:53:56

about the outside world aggressively

defensive and we are seeing the same

1:53:561:54:03

characteristics today. I am afraid

to describe the, as he put it, kind

1:54:031:54:09

of tweets coming out of the Russian

Embassy in the same terms as the

1:54:091:54:12

threat we were facing in the cold

War, it is getting things a little

1:54:121:54:17

out of proportion. There are serious

issues here but I think we should

1:54:171:54:21

discuss them responsibly and I want

to explain what I mean by that. I am

1:54:211:54:26

very reluctant to take up extra

time. Briefly.

They are not

1:54:261:54:32

understanding all the way through

Russia has a full spectrum response,

1:54:321:54:36

they have all the stuff in the

cultural areas in the cold War, has

1:54:361:54:42

he noticed the size of the recent

exercises in the Baltics that Russia

1:54:421:54:47

conducted? They do not see it as

different, part of a full spectrum

1:54:471:54:51

approach.

I completely agree. But

the fact is, today's Russia is a

1:54:511:55:00

shadow of the former power of the

former is the union. I will very

1:55:001:55:03

briefly.

One important difference.

Although the conventional weaponry

1:55:031:55:09

has been somewhat hollowed out,

significant investment is going into

1:55:091:55:12

it, and there is significant

investment in active measures and

1:55:121:55:18

the largest nuclear arsenal.

Russia's destructive power is no

1:55:181:55:23

less than before, it has lost

conventional power, but it makes the

1:55:231:55:29

situation more unstable.

I concur

with what my honourable friend is

1:55:291:55:32

saying but we need to keep this

cyber warfare into perspective,

1:55:321:55:37

particularly in terms of political

interference. The committee I chair

1:55:371:55:43

produced a report on lessons learnt

in the EU referendum in March, 2017,

1:55:431:55:47

and it touches on this issue, in

fact, well in advance of the

1:55:471:55:52

honourable gentleman for exit or, if

I may say. It will also conduct a

1:55:521:55:58

post-2017 general election inquiry

and we will continue looking into

1:55:581:56:01

these issues and I should declare a

tangential interest, I was a

1:56:011:56:07

director of folk leave at the time

of the referendum and I can attest

1:56:071:56:11

we were aware of a certain amount of

odd looking cyber activity -- vote

1:56:111:56:15

leave. We speculated the crash of

the online voter registration system

1:56:151:56:19

was the result of a cyber attack.

This was disputed by the Government

1:56:191:56:24

and it continues to be disputed but

whether or not it is true, the

1:56:241:56:28

Government needs to create a more

resilient system. The report

1:56:281:56:31

highlighted the need not only to

consider the potential for foreign

1:56:311:56:36

interference in elections or

referendums, but to examine its real

1:56:361:56:40

nature of this potential

interference. We found that while

1:56:401:56:44

the UK and US understanding of cyber

this predominantly technical,

1:56:441:56:50

Russian and Chinese use what is

turned as a cognitive approach based

1:56:501:56:57

on understanding mass psychology and

how to exploit the fears of

1:56:571:56:59

individuals -- what is termed. That

is to say, they are less interested

1:56:591:57:05

in the apparent intended effects of

their activities, whether or not

1:57:051:57:08

they alter the balance of the debate

or affect people's voting intentions

1:57:081:57:14

is entirely secondary, they are much

more interested in being seen to be

1:57:141:57:17

able to do what they do, they want

to be seen tweeting the face of the

1:57:171:57:24

West, flaunting their capabilities,

acting illegally, proving what they

1:57:241:57:27

can do, and that we cannot stop

them. They want us to react and it

1:57:271:57:32

is somewhat of a dilemma, they want

us to hold debates like this,

1:57:321:57:38

resident Putin is manipulating this

debate, he will be chortling in the

1:57:381:57:43

Kremlin that we are discussing these

matters and putting Russia sank

1:57:431:57:48

Saturn -- putting Russia

centrestage. It is also important

1:57:481:57:56

that they can report this to their

domestic audience, as evidence,

1:57:561:58:01

however incredible it may seem to

us, of their power and influence in

1:58:011:58:05

the world. This has clear

implications in relation to what we

1:58:051:58:09

understand the cyber attack to be on

the nature of such cyber attacks and

1:58:091:58:13

how we respond both physically and

politically. I commend the Prime

1:58:131:58:18

Minister for adopting a tough stance

on this, I commend the establishment

1:58:181:58:21

of the 2016 national cyber security

centre, but we do need to use this

1:58:211:58:29

work to understand better what the

real motivations are. The Government

1:58:291:58:34

published its response to the report

on the EU referendum yesterday in a

1:58:341:58:38

command paper and I welcome that.

The Government says it is taking the

1:58:381:58:42

issue of cyber security extremely

seriously, the centre played an

1:58:421:58:47

important role in monitoring key

systems for unusual activity in the

1:58:471:58:51

run-up to the 2017 general election,

and the Cabinet Office also convened

1:58:511:58:56

a dedicated monitoring and response

throughout the election period to

1:58:561:59:00

ensure any risks emerging in the

immediate run-up to and during the

1:59:001:59:04

election were coordinated

effectively. In its response to the

1:59:041:59:07

report, the Government says it will

continue to work closely with the

1:59:071:59:10

Electoral Commission and the

Association of Electoral

1:59:101:59:13

Administrators to continue to assess

the threat to the UK's democratic

1:59:131:59:17

process to implement further

measures to mitigate the risk. What

1:59:171:59:20

we can be assured of in terms of the

paper-based voter system, it is much

1:59:201:59:24

more difficult to manipulate than an

electronic voting system. But we

1:59:241:59:31

remain vulnerable to the broader

attempt to use social media as a

1:59:311:59:36

platform of influence. Further

consideration should be given to the

1:59:361:59:38

Electoral Commission's

recommendation in 2014 that the law

1:59:381:59:41

be changed to ensure online

advertising would have an equivalent

1:59:411:59:49

to print. How you control offshore

operators is extremely government

1:59:491:59:54

Billy Booker difficult. I would

encourage the government to include

1:59:541:59:58

an analysis of key actors and the

level of threat they really

1:59:582:00:01

represent and I would encourage them

to ensure the work is translated

2:00:012:00:04

into an effective and coordinated

response and further to our report,

2:00:042:00:09

I call on the Government again to

commit to presenting annual reports

2:00:092:00:13

to Parliament on these matters. But

we must avoid the temptation to

2:00:132:00:19

overreact, to start suggesting that

there have been massive changes to

2:00:192:00:23

public opinion created by this

relatively tiny amount of social

2:00:232:00:27

media activity, otherwise we are

playing into exactly what they want,

2:00:272:00:31

we are questioning the very

processes that they want to have

2:00:312:00:37

questioned, the questions they want

to generate, and we must avoid doing

2:00:372:00:40

that because it is completely

unnecessary.

2:00:402:00:48

This is an important debate and I

congratulate the honourable member

2:00:482:00:51

for securing the debate. The world

is interdependent in a way it has

2:00:512:00:57

never been before and it is

understandable how this creates

2:00:572:01:01

insecurity and uncertainty. We are

now looking for solace in identity

2:01:012:01:11

politics and national becomes a

plaything of populace. Facebook and

2:01:112:01:14

Twitter have become the populist

perfect dwelling place where the

2:01:142:01:20

world can be exposed in an advert

form and bite sized chunks. Media is

2:01:202:01:28

just as likely to be used in

spreading lies and quackery of all

2:01:282:01:32

descriptions. Facebook admits a

third of the US electorate have seen

2:01:322:01:39

Russian promoted this information

during the presidential election. In

2:01:392:01:44

the Sunday Times in October, General

Lancaster in an investigation into

2:01:442:01:49

Facebook said, of Russia's use of

the media, its involvement focused

2:01:492:01:55

on America's fragmentation and

started to exacerbate the country's

2:01:552:02:00

social and political divides. It

targeted focus on what it already

2:02:002:02:06

knew people thought I gave them more

of the same. He goes on to say, used

2:02:062:02:12

falsehoods knowing the company had

no interest in reading them out,

2:02:122:02:16

manipulated feelings, and people

behind the campaign are doing a

2:02:162:02:20

better job of studying Facebook fan

anyone in government. So Russia, it

2:02:202:02:29

would seem our experts are using

social media to twist arguments to

2:02:292:02:34

feed the populace and cause

division. The investigations by

2:02:342:02:41

journalists from the Guardian

revealed the links between Russian

2:02:412:02:46

involvement in Brexit, referendum

and the UK society in general. We

2:02:462:02:49

have thousands of Twitter accounts

to based in Russia that were

2:02:492:02:53

activated during the Brexit

referendum. Now there is an

2:02:532:03:01

investigation about the true origin

of its funding. Other speakers can

2:03:012:03:06

go into better detail about that but

I wanted to mention other things

2:03:062:03:08

about what Putin's intentions are.

He wants to promote nationalist

2:03:082:03:14

parties which could lead to the

fragmentation and fracture of

2:03:142:03:18

European states and institutions,

but is prepared to ignore the

2:03:182:03:22

sovereignty of other countries, such

as Ukraine. He will use every device

2:03:222:03:26

at his disposal to make sure his

opponents are divided, discontented

2:03:262:03:30

and grievances are fed and he knows

to play the tune of identity

2:03:302:03:34

politics. One of the reasons I was

so opposed to Brexit is that by

2:03:342:03:39

leaving the EU we were playing the

Russian's game for them. I divided

2:03:392:03:47

economic union on Russia's doorstep

would do them nicely. That is where

2:03:472:03:49

we find ourselves. For my work on

the Defence Select Committee as

2:03:492:03:54

well, we worry about what will

happen with our commitment and

2:03:542:03:59

Trump's commitment to Nato. Our

ability as a nation to defend itself

2:03:592:04:06

adequately as we pursue a more

independent defence strategy because

2:04:062:04:10

of Leith in some secured as we can

secure an independent trade

2:04:102:04:19

strategy, and we need to ensure our

trade links in a global trading

2:04:192:04:23

power. The defence strategy expert I

talk to have said we cannot

2:04:232:04:32

contribute to the country the way we

do to Nato, whilst pursuing an

2:04:322:04:37

independent defence strategy, we

cannot do both together because we

2:04:372:04:39

cannot afford to do both. That is

another win the Putin. What Putin

2:04:392:04:47

wants to see is the great

unravelling of old alliances,

2:04:472:04:52

International institutions, to his

benefit. We cannot allow that to

2:04:522:04:55

happen because what is at risk, I

believe, is our way of life. Liberal

2:04:552:05:00

democracy is being challenged in a

way I do not thing has been

2:05:002:05:03

challenged since the 1930s. I do not

believe Putin wants a military

2:05:032:05:09

conflict, but in the 21st century

there is more than one way to

2:05:092:05:13

confront your perceived adverse Ariz

is through cyber and disinformation

2:05:132:05:16

which enters society under the

radar. We need to tighten political

2:05:162:05:26

advertising and that more closely at

the potential for foreign powers

2:05:262:05:30

funding politics and we need to our

social media organisations to do

2:05:302:05:36

things to tighten things up,

otherwise the government will have

2:05:362:05:39

to step in to do it. We have a

responsibility to take a step back

2:05:392:05:43

to consider, we best think afresh to

what we are creating with social

2:05:432:05:49

media and it is for the benefit of

all democracies...

Order. Due to the

2:05:492:05:54

large intervention colleagues have

taken, which always has implications

2:05:542:06:00

for others, I am afraid after the

next speaker I will have to reduce

2:06:002:06:03

the time limit to four minutes.

Doctor Julian Lewis.

I won't take

2:06:032:06:14

any interventions. I would like to

ask if any honourable member in this

2:06:142:06:20

chamber other than perhaps the

member for Ilford South and the

2:06:202:06:25

honourable member for Worley, feels

a flicker of recognition for the

2:06:252:06:35

names of the following

organisations. The International

2:06:352:06:38

union of students, the world

Federation of scientific workers,

2:06:382:06:42

the world Federation of Democratic

youth and above all, the world peace

2:06:422:06:46

Council. They were part of an

magnificent array of Soviet

2:06:462:06:52

international propaganda front

organisations, that plied their

2:06:522:06:57

disreputable trade through half a

century from the end of the 1940s,

2:06:572:07:01

right up until the downfall of the

Soviet Union. And they were well

2:07:012:07:07

funded, they were very active and

they were almost wholly, at least as

2:07:072:07:12

far as the United Kingdom was

concerned when ineffective.

2:07:122:07:20

Ineffective because they were

clunky, ineffective because they did

2:07:202:07:23

not understand the way in which

British people and British

2:07:232:07:28

parliamentarians think and operate.

I have heard something in every

2:07:282:07:33

speech, and indeed every

intervention that's been made with

2:07:332:07:37

which I agreed. We are all on the

same page, we all understand that

2:07:372:07:44

Russia is not a modern

constitutional democracy, that

2:07:442:07:48

Russia will do everything within its

power to promote its messages and to

2:07:482:07:53

undermine the messages of those it

perceives as its adverse Ariz. I

2:07:532:08:01

always hesitate to quote one of the

most evil men who ever walked the

2:08:012:08:05

face of the Earth and that is Doctor

Yosef Goebbels. But he knew a thing

2:08:052:08:14

or two about propaganda. And one of

his central tenets was, the purpose

2:08:142:08:20

of propaganda is not to change

minds, it is to find out what they

2:08:202:08:27

already believe and reinforce it.

There is a very good reason for

2:08:272:08:33

this. Because except, and it is an

important exception, except when you

2:08:332:08:39

are dealing with young minds who

have not had a chance to form their

2:08:392:08:43

value systems and opinions. I have

come to the conclusion, through

2:08:432:08:48

working in this field for a long

time before I entered the House of

2:08:482:08:53

Commons, people are much more

resistance to the effect of

2:08:532:08:57

propaganda than they are given

credit for, when it comes to

2:08:572:09:00

changing their minds. The effect of

propaganda may be too disheartened,

2:09:002:09:07

but it's not generally to them

unless they are impressionable and

2:09:072:09:13

most people are not. I said I

wouldn't and I won't come out of

2:09:132:09:18

consideration to others. I am sorry.

Therefore, I would like to follow on

2:09:182:09:24

a bet that the argument the

honourable member for Ilford South

2:09:242:09:27

was developing when he talked about

different stages in society. I think

2:09:272:09:33

that apart from failed states, you

have three main types of society. We

2:09:332:09:39

have totalitarian extremism. You

have ruthless authoritarianism and

2:09:392:09:44

you have constitutional democracy.

And sometimes, you only have the

2:09:442:09:49

choice between the first or the

second, because their third takes

2:09:492:09:53

time to evolve. And the reason why

the rush of today, though dangerous

2:09:532:10:00

play is not nearly as dangers as the

Soviet Union of yesterday, is

2:10:002:10:06

because it has moved largely from

totalitarian extremism to ruthless

2:10:062:10:13

kleptocratic authoritarianism. The

reason why totalitarian extremism is

2:10:132:10:19

a dangerously as it has an ideology

that finds resonance in the target

2:10:192:10:25

societies, the ideology for example

of the work of's paradise. There are

2:10:252:10:30

no fifth columnists of young,

British people who are bowled over

2:10:302:10:34

by the masculinity, alleged or real

Vladimir Putin. There were plenty

2:10:342:10:39

who were fooled by the concept of

the worker's paradise, so by all

2:10:392:10:45

means, so by all means be careful.

By all means, recognise that Twitter

2:10:452:10:52

can affect young, impressionable

minds. But remember one thing, to

2:10:522:11:02

defend ourselves properly, we need

to defend ourselves in the cyber

2:11:022:11:04

field against cyber attack on our

infrastructure, rather than worry

2:11:042:11:07

too much about ineffective

propaganda measures.

Chris Bryant.

I

2:11:072:11:17

have to say, although I admire the

honourable gentleman, I find that

2:11:172:11:21

utterly naive and complacent in the

end. Because you cannot just say

2:11:212:11:27

Russia is a klepto Chrissy and say

that is fine. It is a security

2:11:272:11:32

state. It is being run ruthlessly

and preventing elections, preventing

2:11:322:11:37

journalist from doing their proper

job, murdering journalists and

2:11:372:11:42

making sure journalists elsewhere in

the world are put out of their jobs

2:11:422:11:45

are not able to scrutinise Russia

properly. Even the Russian embassy's

2:11:452:11:51

presents in the UK I think flounces

every single one of the normal rules

2:11:512:11:58

of an embassy. It wrote to the

Speaker on a previous occasion to

2:11:582:12:03

try to prevent a debate taking place

on Russia here. They have tweeted

2:12:032:12:08

aggressively against several members

of this House and they even tried to

2:12:082:12:13

rig the election of the chair of the

all-party Parliamentary group. You

2:12:132:12:19

think they would have more important

things to do. I am the present chair

2:12:192:12:24

and the former chair is sitting

opposite. Because he departed, he

2:12:242:12:28

was so fed up with the way the

Russian Embassy were dealing with

2:12:282:12:31

us. Maybe the honourable member from

the Isle of Wight will say something

2:12:312:12:38

on this later because he is an

expert. But they are involved in a

2:12:382:12:43

form of hybrid warfare. It doesn't

involve military weapons so much,

2:12:432:12:47

although they are quite keen to

continuously flex those muscles as

2:12:472:12:52

well and they are totalitarian Rory

ambitious because of Georgia and

2:12:522:12:58

Ukraine. But I want to explain one

of the elements because I asked a

2:12:582:13:03

man who runs the digital forensic

research at the Atlantic Council, to

2:13:032:13:07

look at some of the Twitter accounts

of MPs, including the honourable

2:13:072:13:12

member the Folkestone and Hythe, the

honourable member the Karl Schultz,

2:13:122:13:17

myself and others and they count of

the Secretary of State for work and

2:13:172:13:21

pension is and looks at the attacks

they receive. The pattern is from

2:13:212:13:26

some of these control accounts,

which I believe and others believe

2:13:262:13:30

are centrally organised from St

Petersburg, as the honourable member

2:13:302:13:35

referred to earlier. The pattern is,

they are anonymous, pretend to be

2:13:352:13:39

British, even though they might have

been treating in Russian. They tweet

2:13:392:13:44

in bad English at Russian times of

day. They infiltrate the hard right,

2:13:442:13:49

to propagate and amplify views held

by others to make the Goebbels point

2:13:492:13:54

that was made earlier. They attacked

Tooting critics with foul language.

2:13:542:14:06

They support Kremlin lines and

Syria, the Olympic ban, Ukraine, M

2:14:062:14:11

17 flight and Senator McCain. And

they tag other factory control

2:14:112:14:15

accounts. So the one that attacked

Lucy Fisher, a journalist that the

2:14:152:14:23

time and myself, it looks like a

normal account, but the profile

2:14:232:14:27

picture is of a Russian skater. It

used to tweet in Russian, now it

2:14:272:14:35

needs a very aggressive

anti-immigration stuff in the UK.

2:14:352:14:39

The instance, I effing hate Irish.

Not one of its most expressive

2:14:392:14:48

recent tweets, called on the

honourable member from Carl Scholten

2:14:482:14:55

to resign. It doesn't mean it is a

bad person, but he was only being

2:14:552:15:05

attacked because of his political

views. It is dangerously be

2:15:052:15:09

complacent, because there is a

specific body of work attacking

2:15:092:15:13

Twitter accounts to intimidate

British MPs.

2:15:132:15:20

I must concur with many of the

speeches today, I believe it is a

2:15:202:15:24

major threat to our democracy,

Western democracy, and our way of

2:15:242:15:30

life. One of the biggest threats I

have experienced since the fall of

2:15:302:15:35

the Berlin Wall. At that time, there

was a book written by an academic

2:15:352:15:40

the Berlin Wall. At that time, there

was a book written by an academic,

2:15:402:15:43

about the end of history and how

liberal democracy was the final form

2:15:432:15:46

of government. This looks quite an

arrogant approach, shows a great

2:15:462:15:51

deal of hubris. Over the years,

these events and Russia's

2:15:512:15:59

transformation and change has crept

up on us. We are effectively, I

2:15:592:16:05

think, a type of war going on, it

may not involve armies, we may not

2:16:052:16:09

have seen the same conventional

threat, but it involves the bots. It

2:16:092:16:22

feeds all the way through many

strikers of Russian society. This

2:16:222:16:25

can also be shown, they have been

open, going back to 2013-14, you

2:16:252:16:34

will see many public utterances by

Russian generals talking about

2:16:342:16:37

information and the future being

hybrid war and that is what we have

2:16:372:16:42

seen being deployed. It is not just

Russia involved in this, there are

2:16:422:16:49

up to 25, 28 countries developing

this type of capability globally.

2:16:492:16:55

This itself, if we turn on each

other, even some friendly nations as

2:16:552:17:00

well, if they adopt these tactics,

we all effectively could be lost. We

2:17:002:17:08

need to think about how we tackle

this. Fake news itself is the

2:17:082:17:14

most... The thing we are looking at

as the select committee right now,

2:17:142:17:17

but it is perhaps not as big an

issue as algorithms allowing access

2:17:172:17:22

to target... In the general

election, we saw there was a great

2:17:222:17:30

deal of targeting of the swing

states -- in the US election. And

2:17:302:17:34

individuals who seem to be

particularly susceptible to this

2:17:342:17:39

type of fake news. I believe the

future may not involve whether or

2:17:392:17:44

not the Facebooks of this world

become a platform or publisher which

2:17:442:17:48

is a major debate going on, in some

respects, it is about the

2:17:482:17:53

algorithms, how we get into the

black boxes, telling us precisely

2:17:532:17:58

how this works and it is

understanding that and I have to say

2:17:582:18:02

properly regulating it and

introducing proper oversight because

2:18:022:18:05

the danger is, for example, we make

Facebook publisher, we also without

2:18:052:18:13

responsibility -- with that

responsibility comes enormous power,

2:18:132:18:17

they can dictate effectively the

sort of discourse and it is too much

2:18:172:18:21

power to put into their particular

hands. I would say one thing of the

2:18:212:18:27

social media companies, they need to

cooperate more with the likes of the

2:18:272:18:31

select committee and other

international bodies because they

2:18:312:18:34

too are invested in our society, our

Western ways, and unless they come

2:18:342:18:39

to the party, I'm afraid that there

could be some real problems down the

2:18:392:18:46

line. Finally, talking about Brexit,

in this regard, I do not think the

2:18:462:18:51

evidence is quite there at the

moment in terms of the level of

2:18:512:18:54

interference in the same way as the

French elections, however, there was

2:18:542:18:58

a way in which this did by osmosis

seep through, Germany and

2:18:582:19:04

immigration, a lot of the fake

stories coming out there which I

2:19:042:19:10

think did downstream effectively

affect many people's outlooks when

2:19:102:19:13

it comes to issues like immigration

and the referendum, I think that had

2:19:132:19:17

an impact.

It is unfortunate that

chairman has left us now because I

2:19:172:19:25

have served on the committee and I

believe it would be very helpful to

2:19:252:19:29

him to inform the House that an

organisation that he had played a

2:19:292:19:35

great leading role in the referendum

is under investigation by the

2:19:352:19:40

electoral commission at the moment

and I have been on this committee

2:19:402:19:45

for three parliaments and I am

ashamed that we are neglecting what

2:19:452:19:52

it is, the most prominent issue

before us, and the member for Exeter

2:19:522:19:57

need not be shy about being

premature bringing it forward, we

2:19:572:19:59

had a debate, we made the report, at

the end of the last parliament. It

2:19:592:20:05

was clear, we said the Electoral

Commission had told us they were

2:20:052:20:10

powerless to actually control

information from abroad. The role of

2:20:102:20:16

the committee has been taken up by

other committees, very grateful for

2:20:162:20:20

what they have done, and a committee

in the House of Lords took it at the

2:20:202:20:25

other day and the chief executive

said clearly, and I will quote, as

2:20:252:20:28

the UK-based regulator, applying

UK-based laws, there is nothing we

2:20:282:20:35

can do about activity on the

internet that is taking place

2:20:352:20:38

outside of the UK. And the threat to

us, the Electoral Commission, a year

2:20:382:20:46

later, after this was flagged up,

has no powers and there is an

2:20:462:20:50

investigation. What the chief

executive told us last year was the

2:20:502:20:56

only people who could do at work

GCHQ and there appears to be nothing

2:20:562:21:00

that has happened. -- the only

people who could do it were GCHQ. We

2:21:002:21:09

are trying to control elections with

the tools of the steam age not the

2:21:092:21:13

digital age. A final point of order

of the last Parliament, the reaction

2:21:132:21:18

of the Speaker was kind as always,

but he did not know what an

2:21:182:21:22

algorithm was, but having warned

about these things, but we must

2:21:222:21:25

realise that our elections and

referendums are up for sale, people

2:21:252:21:31

can spend large amounts of money,

not just Russia, it is America as

2:21:312:21:36

well, to obtain a certain end in our

campaigns. We are in a worse

2:21:362:21:45

position... There has always been --

there has also been a degradation of

2:21:452:21:51

the political debate, you put

forward a preposterous lie, repeated

2:21:512:21:56

enough, it is believed and it is

allowed and there is no sensor.

2:21:562:21:59

Someone very happy to hold the

Office for National Statistics who

2:21:592:22:06

are the arbiters of these matters,

the keepers of the truth, when both

2:22:062:22:13

chairman of the United Kingdom

statistics authority complained

2:22:132:22:19

about the activities of the Foreign

Secretary and the now Minister for

2:22:192:22:24

Defra, they were saying something

that was demonstrably untrue, using

2:22:242:22:29

a gross figure in a way about the

health service money that might be

2:22:292:22:34

coming, he was not summoned, the two

MPs were not summoned before the

2:22:342:22:41

committee to account for themselves,

the committee refused to do that,

2:22:412:22:45

but they did seven the man calling

it out -- but they did summon the

2:22:452:22:51

man calling it out, he was the one

pointing out that error. We have the

2:22:512:23:00

degradation, big lies, it happened

in the other campaigns as well, the

2:23:002:23:05

ones for the alternative vote, but I

believe we are in a position now

2:23:052:23:11

where we are not respecting

objective truths, people can lie

2:23:112:23:18

with impunity and get away with it.

There are a lot of people interested

2:23:182:23:22

in distorting the referendum and our

elections and there is no defences

2:23:222:23:26

we have for it.

For the record, I

have been doing academic research on

2:23:262:23:34

Russian conventional and

nonconventional war from 1990 to

2:23:342:23:41

1994, I live there, and I have made

seven trips there for us -- for

2:23:412:23:49

research purposes. I thank the

honourable member for this debate.

2:23:492:23:56

The most important thing we can

achieve is to avoid worsening

2:23:562:23:59

relations with Russia and to do what

we can to minimise the chances of

2:23:592:24:03

conflict, which is small but

genuine. However, we need to call up

2:24:032:24:09

Russian malign intent, understand

what is happening and take firm

2:24:092:24:13

action when required. It is quite

clear that the Kremlin opposes

2:24:132:24:17

liberal democracy and it sees it as

a threat. Its doctrines imply a

2:24:172:24:24

conflict of values. These are the

Russian foreign policy concepts, two

2:24:242:24:28

of them in the last 20 years, the

information security, Russia's

2:24:282:24:33

recent national security strategy,

the three military doctrines in the

2:24:332:24:37

last two decades, the member talked

about the conceptualisations of

2:24:372:24:40

active measures and hybrid war, the

first doctrine, not just conflict,

2:24:402:24:50

military conflict, is the combining

of people, power and military and

2:24:502:24:54

non-military tools. I quote, the

integrated use of force, political,

2:24:542:24:59

economic, information and other

measures of an non-military

2:24:592:25:03

character implemented with extensive

use of protest potential of the

2:25:032:25:09

population, my slightly rough

translation, and special force

2:25:092:25:12

operations. By this, I think we are

talking about cider and espionage as

2:25:122:25:16

well as physical operations -- cyber

. Vote rigging is very much part of

2:25:162:25:26

it. There are over 50 tools I have

come across, too many to mention

2:25:262:25:31

here, one can divide them up into

six categories. Information warfare,

2:25:312:25:35

clearly we are seeing a lot of in

this country and I would include the

2:25:352:25:39

substance of cyber

2:25:392:25:39

this country and I would include the

substance of cyber, soft power,

2:25:392:25:43

culture, governments, law, more

applicable to East Europe.

2:25:432:25:47

Subversive political tactics, old

Soviet active measures, which you

2:25:472:25:50

will know well, assassination,

blackmail, the stuff they may or may

2:25:502:25:54

not have on President Trump, who

knows, all of these elements. The

2:25:542:25:59

KGB, we championed by the GR you and

others. Diplomacy and public

2:25:592:26:05

outrage, economic tools,

conventional and nonconventional

2:26:052:26:09

military tools. To those six, one

should add another two elements,

2:26:092:26:14

command and control, journalists

often miss it out because they do

2:26:142:26:17

not think it is interesting. For

diplomats and soldiers, spirits, the

2:26:172:26:21

people who try to understand it, the

command and control structures are

2:26:212:26:26

important to understand -- spooks.

And the way to control, the

2:26:262:26:31

psychological chess, it is known in

Russian as reflective control, a way

2:26:312:26:34

of leading your opponent to their

own demise. I have in the last 45

2:26:342:26:39

seconds... We would recommend to the

Minister, look at the US in the

2:26:392:26:47

1980s, an intelligence committee

reporting annually, twice a year,

2:26:472:26:51

standing, powerful committee using a

great deal of experts to publicise

2:26:512:26:56

its results, to inoculate society

against the lies told. We need a

2:26:562:27:01

House intelligence committee, I will

be writing to various members about

2:27:012:27:05

this in the New Year. We need a

powerful committee to look

2:27:052:27:10

holistically, Russian warfare is

holistic, ours needs to be holistic

2:27:102:27:14

as well. Secondly, we need a

stunning group of experts, the US in

2:27:142:27:19

the 1980s, again, the active

measures working group, very

2:27:192:27:22

successful in bringing to light the

cyber... That active warfare of the

2:27:222:27:29

Soviets, presenting the evidence to

Mr Gorbachev. Thank you.

I want to

2:27:292:27:38

thank the honourable member for

Carshalton for bringing the issue to

2:27:382:27:41

the floor and I am always interested

in what my learned friend has to

2:27:412:27:44

bring to any debate. Some things we

agree on, some things we do not. I

2:27:442:27:49

want to say quickly, when I sat on

the Defence Select Committee would

2:27:492:27:54

honourable members, one of the

issues was the influence of Russia,

2:27:542:28:01

cyber technology, their influence

through radio stations, media, very

2:28:012:28:05

clear to me that there was a policy

by Russia and what happens. I just

2:28:052:28:09

want to make that comment. I want to

state clearly I am a staunch

2:28:092:28:15

Brexiteer. I still believe it is

best for the UK. And Northern

2:28:152:28:22

Ireland. I am proud to represent my

constituency which is a mixture of

2:28:222:28:26

rural and urban, I believe it is a

fair representation of the views of

2:28:262:28:31

the UK, it voted to leave. The

question... I believe it... Some

2:28:312:28:40

members have presented an argument

to say that we were influence. No

2:28:402:28:53

way casting dispersions on anything

said here today, honourable members

2:28:532:28:56

have their own opinion, they have a

right to that, but they have to

2:28:562:28:59

accept the decision of the June and

if except that, they should work

2:28:592:29:07

with the rest of us to make sure

Brexit happens. I'm trying to

2:29:072:29:10

ascertain whether this influence

changed the outcome of the

2:29:102:29:14

referendum. I do not believe it is

the case. It is my opinion that

2:29:142:29:22

communities in my constituency,

decimated by the Common Fisheries

2:29:222:29:26

Policy, they decided enough was

enough of Europeans lining their

2:29:262:29:30

pockets at the expense of our

fishermen. They wanted out. They

2:29:302:29:33

were fed up with bureaucrats sitting

in Brussels making decisions about

2:29:332:29:44

how many fish they could catch along

the coast of County Down, they

2:29:442:29:47

wanted out. The farmers who have

been tangled in regulation for too

2:29:472:29:51

many years, relying on government to

facilitate them, they wanted out.

2:29:512:29:57

The people on the street scene money

going to Europe, they wanted the

2:29:572:30:02

money going to education and health

-- the people on the streets seeing

2:30:022:30:08

money going to Europe. We made our

own minds up. There were people who

2:30:082:30:13

also wanted to stay, better the

devil you know than the devil you

2:30:132:30:19

don't. There were those who were

concerned about how businesses would

2:30:192:30:24

continue and they voted to remain.

As was their right. I visited those

2:30:242:30:29

businesses and I got their opinion

and I felt that opinion into

2:30:292:30:33

government and through the member

and the Brexit committee to make

2:30:332:30:39

sure those opinions are part of the

strategy the Government is trying to

2:30:392:30:42

pursue. Plans in place to secure

their businesses and to ensure they

2:30:422:30:48

survive and thrive. This is what we

do in my constituency and what we

2:30:482:30:52

should do in this House.

2:30:522:30:58

Did the Russians skew the vote? I

don't believe they did. People voted

2:30:582:31:02

with their heads and their hearts

and I don't think for a second, but

2:31:022:31:07

a Twitter or Facebook campaign

affected. I believe the willingness

2:31:072:31:16

for taking back our sovereignty and

independence. That is what the voter

2:31:162:31:20

was about. That is what the people

have asked us to do and what we must

2:31:202:31:25

deliver regardless of any Russian

influence. It is clear to me, they

2:31:252:31:31

want out. Everyone in this chamber

should be of the same opinion.

It

2:31:312:31:40

has been a fascinating debate and I

would like to thank the honourable

2:31:402:31:47

member for bringing it today. It is

an opportunity to reflect on the

2:31:472:31:52

fact we are not the first to

experience this and anybody, I had

2:31:522:31:58

the great fortune a number of years

ago to work in the former Soviet

2:31:582:32:02

Union and I work into BC for a

number of years. And anyone who has

2:32:022:32:09

spent time there, will know that

what we are experiencing is not

2:32:092:32:13

something new, but is a tactic that

has been deployed over decades

2:32:132:32:17

rather than over the past few

months. It is useful for us to

2:32:172:32:22

reflect on and is useful why I

engage in with the Ukrainians, the

2:32:222:32:27

Georgians and others who have

experienced is so important. One

2:32:272:32:32

other thing I want to reflect on

during my experiences and has been

2:32:322:32:37

reflected on by other members, it is

not a debate about our relationship

2:32:372:32:40

with the people of Russia. The

people of Russia are wonderful with

2:32:402:32:45

their rich culture and history and

it is the most extraordinary diverse

2:32:452:32:48

and wonderful country, the Russian

Federation. The member for Harwich

2:32:482:32:55

and North Essex earlier on, he

mentioned the fact that maybe he

2:32:552:32:59

didn't want to see this debate

taking place. I welcome the fact

2:32:592:33:03

this is taking place and I want to

use the opportunity to highlight the

2:33:032:33:08

impact Vladimir Putin has had on his

own people. One thing that happened

2:33:082:33:11

last year, I spent time looking and

studying the conflict in Chechnya.

2:33:112:33:16

It is a much forgotten conflict, but

they described orogeny as the most

2:33:162:33:24

destroyed city on earth. Sometimes

we forget the devastating impact

2:33:242:33:30

that the current president of the

Russian Federation has had on his

2:33:302:33:34

own people. A far more devastating

impact than he's had on people

2:33:342:33:38

elsewhere in the world and it is

worth bearing that in mind. A couple

2:33:382:33:43

of years ago as well, I would

recommend the Foreign Affairs

2:33:432:33:47

Committee the member for Ilford

South and other colleagues put

2:33:472:33:50

together, as I thought, as always,

give thanks to the officials we had,

2:33:502:33:57

a very thoughtful and useful piece

of work. I want to reflect on the

2:33:572:34:02

evidence that we took. One of the

most impactful for me, pieces of

2:34:022:34:08

evidence in St Petersburg. We

invited groups from around the

2:34:082:34:12

Russian Federation to come and give

evidence. The impact the Russian

2:34:122:34:18

regime has had on LGBT groups who

have been threatened and bullied.

2:34:182:34:24

Lawyers who fight for the rule of

law and do so with incredible

2:34:242:34:28

courage that all of us in this House

should reflect on. The most

2:34:282:34:32

impactful group I met with

personally was the committee of

2:34:322:34:37

soldiers of mothers of Russia. These

were the women whose young men and

2:34:372:34:41

often young women had been sent to

the Army, sometimes to fight. Who

2:34:412:34:47

sometimes had lost family members,

couldn't get information about

2:34:472:34:50

family members. That is devastating

and we would do well to reflect on

2:34:502:34:55

the ongoing suffering of the people

of Russia and the bravery of the

2:34:552:34:58

woman in particular of the committee

of soldiers of mothers of Russia.

2:34:582:35:02

That this something we would

encourage the Minister to reflect

2:35:022:35:06

on, all members to reflect on as

well. I will make one point, the

2:35:062:35:14

report we did was incredibly

critical of Russia. I remember

2:35:142:35:17

asking Russia today, will you give

us evidence of where you have been

2:35:172:35:20

critical of Russian actions in Syria

# they didn't give us any. I thought

2:35:202:35:26

I should go on Russia today because

if we are going to criticise

2:35:262:35:29

somebody and thing we should give

them the opportunity to answer back.

2:35:292:35:33

On that point, I will give way.

He's

referring to the select committee

2:35:332:35:41

enquiry. He will recall when we took

evidence from Russia today and

2:35:412:35:47

Sputnik, we were told they had a

charter just like the BBC's. And we

2:35:472:35:52

asked them, where is it, is it

published and they said, we will

2:35:522:35:56

send it to. As far as I am aware, it

was never received by the committee.

2:35:562:36:02

As always, the honourable member for

Ilford South has a fine recollection

2:36:022:36:08

and makes an excellent point. On the

point of journalists, Russia is one

2:36:082:36:13

of the most dangers places on earth

to be a journalist. We should

2:36:132:36:18

reflect in this House, and it is

worth putting on the record, the

2:36:182:36:22

extraordinary bravery of

journalists, going right back who

2:36:222:36:26

covered the conflicts in Chechnya,

who covered the conflicts in

2:36:262:36:30

Dagestan, nor the city as well as

over the border with the conflict is

2:36:302:36:33

ongoing in South 30 and other areas,

but don't get the debate with

2:36:332:36:39

everything else that is going on. In

the final remarks, what is the

2:36:392:36:44

solution to this? It is clear our

work with European Union has been

2:36:442:36:50

incredibly important. By Hibs

regardless of where members sit on

2:36:502:36:53

that the side of the debate, leave

remain, that the Minister will

2:36:532:36:59

commit to continuing our key

partnerships with these

2:36:592:37:02

organisations. The European Union

has a huge role to play. In terms of

2:37:022:37:07

the development of the economy, the

rule of law. We have done some

2:37:072:37:11

extraordinary work with them in the

Ukraine and I hope the Minister will

2:37:112:37:15

continue to commit to that as well.

I want to pay tribute to the soft

2:37:152:37:20

power that can be ongoing. There is

an extraordinary amount of work we

2:37:202:37:25

can do in terms of cultural

diplomacy and I pay tribute to the

2:37:252:37:28

British Council and others doing

fantastic work. And others who have

2:37:282:37:32

worked for years, extraordinary

people who have done extraordinary

2:37:322:37:43

work in building relations and

understanding. Finally, we need to

2:37:432:37:48

continue to work with the EU in

terms of stabilising and working

2:37:482:37:51

with and giving a carrot to the

countries that are threatened by the

2:37:512:37:56

European federation. The greatest

threat to independence and

2:37:562:37:59

sovereignty is not the United

Kingdom but said the countries of

2:37:592:38:02

the Western Balkans, the Baltic.

Can

I offer my congratulations to the

2:38:022:38:12

right honourable member for securing

this debate. The argument I want to

2:38:122:38:18

make briefly is that unlike

agencies, the government has been

2:38:182:38:23

late in waking up to the new

worldview of President Putin, set

2:38:232:38:28

out with such clarity and force

after his re-election as president

2:38:282:38:33

in 2012. I want to set up briefly

the opportunity, means an motive

2:38:332:38:38

which has driven Russia to intervene

in our democracy and I want to

2:38:382:38:42

propose to the Minister a number of

areas where we can work together.

2:38:422:38:46

Let me start with the motive because

I think we have heard a lot, in

2:38:462:38:52

particular from the member of Ilford

North about the history and that

2:38:522:38:56

motive is important to underline.

After he returned to the presidency

2:38:562:39:01

in 2012, President Putin offered a

different view about the

2:39:012:39:05

possibilities of cooperation with

the West. That worldview wasn't a

2:39:052:39:09

secret, he set it out in great

clarity in his 2013 state of the

2:39:092:39:14

nation address where he gave us the

theory to match the fury of his

2:39:142:39:19

Munich Security conference speech in

2007. He attacked the post-Christian

2:39:192:39:25

west of genderless and infertile

liberalism. He attacked the puritan

2:39:252:39:30

's and he attacked what he said was

a West trapped in moral relativism,

2:39:302:39:37

and Europeans argued Putin renounced

their routes including Western

2:39:372:39:44

civilisation. They had a headline to

this story, they describe the pitch

2:39:442:39:52

as Putin, world conservatism's new

leader. This worldview has nothing

2:39:522:39:57

to do with traditional conservatism.

It has a great deal to do with the

2:39:572:40:01

new trends of the old right. But if

Mr Putin was content to confine the

2:40:012:40:09

philosophy to his own borders, we

would not be having this debate, but

2:40:092:40:14

he has set out systematically to

wreck the vision, legacy and the

2:40:142:40:19

record of President Gorbachev, who

set out in 1987 to 1989, a very

2:40:192:40:24

different view of the way that

Russia and Europe could work

2:40:242:40:27

together to create what he called,

and all European home, subject to a

2:40:272:40:33

common legal space, governed by the

European Convention on human rights.

2:40:332:40:37

This is not a view President Putin

shares. No all common home for

2:40:372:40:43

President Putin, just a systematic

effort to rule, confound and

2:40:432:40:47

confuse. That takes us to the means

of Russia's new strategy. I thought

2:40:472:40:53

the honourable member the New Forest

East did us a favour by sketching

2:40:532:40:55

out the history of active measures.

They do have a long history in

2:40:552:40:59

Russian warfare techniques. The

KGB's highest-ranking defector

2:40:592:41:06

described the heart and soul of

Russian intelligence. But since

2:41:062:41:10

2012, this doctrine has been

renewed. Some call it a doctrine,

2:41:102:41:16

some call it a philosophy, but the

idea is the rules of warfare has

2:41:162:41:26

changed. These new tactics are

characterised by opportunism. They

2:41:262:41:36

are an unregulated network or

propagandists and the material is

2:41:362:41:43

distributed online. It is an attempt

to confuse and confound. The way it

2:41:432:41:50

goes to market in the West is

through an unholy alliance with

2:41:502:41:57

extreme leftist groups and extreme

right groups as well. Its aim is to

2:41:572:42:00

polarise and divide. Its aim is to

tear down the words on my coat of

2:42:002:42:06

arms that we have more in common

than set us apart. If you look at

2:42:062:42:15

the 45 new parties created, you can

see a clear majority have some

2:42:152:42:18

sympathy with Russia. Germany's AFD,

the FPO, the front Nationale in

2:42:182:42:26

France, Northern league in Italy and

indeed Ukip. They have all taken

2:42:262:42:30

pro-Russia positions on matters of

huge international interest. Front

2:42:302:42:37

Nationale gave significant loans by

Kremlin backed banks. If you look at

2:42:372:42:42

the AFD's relationship with Russia,

you can see how broadcasters like

2:42:422:42:48

Sputnik and Russia linked account

systematically intervened to attack

2:42:482:42:52

Angela Merkel and support for AFD.

With Ukip, Nigel Farage famously

2:42:522:42:57

said that President Putin was the

leader he most admired in 2014. Ukip

2:42:572:43:06

has taken consistent positions of

support in the European Parliament

2:43:062:43:09

over Russia's situation with Crimea.

Blaming Ukraine with a crisis and

2:43:092:43:22

reasserting Russia's right to

intervene. The US intelligence

2:43:222:43:25

committee looking at this concluded

that Russia was intervening

2:43:252:43:30

systematically abroad in the West. I

believe it would be naive to think

2:43:302:43:35

Russia was not trying to intervene

here in this country. That takes us

2:43:352:43:42

to the heart of the reform agenda we

have got to look at. What has now

2:43:422:43:45

become clear is there is a dark,

social playbook which is being used

2:43:452:43:51

to great effect. We have hackers

like cosy bear or others who are

2:43:512:43:55

hacking e-mails, they work in

partnership with useful idiots, wiki

2:43:552:44:00

we hope Sputnik or RT, western

monster, they work hard to circulate

2:44:002:44:11

news that creates a row on Twitter,

then the troll farms kick in. Then

2:44:112:44:20

they suck the material into dark

Facebook groups and then those ads

2:44:202:44:24

are circulated widely. Of interest

to members opposite will be the

2:44:242:44:27

study I have commissioned by

signify, but look that the

2:44:272:44:34

Telegraph's terrible front-page

attacking members opposite for being

2:44:342:44:38

Brexit mutinies. Leave.EU and West

monster picked up the story. West

2:44:382:44:42

monster published the original

content. Leave.EU amplify the story

2:44:422:44:47

on Facebook channels calling rubble

members opposite cancer and Tory

2:44:472:44:51

traitors. If you look at standard

social listening tools you will see

2:44:512:44:56

the Twitter account had 1.3 thousand

interactions. Go on to the original

2:44:562:45:01

post and you will see only 44

interactions. Go onto the post on

2:45:012:45:05

Facebook and you will see 23,000

interactions. The difference is,

2:45:052:45:13

money run was being switched behind

back to attack and influence an

2:45:132:45:18

attempt to suborn members opposite

in the debates we have had over the

2:45:182:45:21

last week or two.

2:45:212:45:26

Quite where the money was coming

from, we don't know, it was a

2:45:262:45:31

dormant company. A subsidiary has

just been set up with a man called

2:45:312:45:36

John Douglas Wilson Castle, formerly

of this parish. We now have a

2:45:362:45:42

well-established playbook where we

have a method of creating rows on

2:45:422:45:46

Twitter and sucking the content onto

Facebook using. Money. The ads are

2:45:462:45:53

not going to everybody because firms

like Aggregate IQ are targeting the

2:45:532:46:01

ads. I will not give way because of

time. We have about as, the means

2:46:012:46:08

and a method of Russia intervening

in democracy that we have got to be

2:46:082:46:13

aware of. The challenge we have now

got is that is that our legislation

2:46:132:46:22

is completely out of date. We have

the chairman of the Electoral

2:46:222:46:28

Commission openly warning of a

perfect storm that is putting our

2:46:282:46:32

democratic process in peril and

calling for urgent steps to deliver

2:46:322:46:37

transparency around political

advertising, we have regulation for

2:46:372:46:39

social media firms that was written

before social media firms grew to

2:46:392:46:44

the size they have and because they

are treated as platforms, not

2:46:442:46:48

publishers, that means Ofcom will

not regulate them as broadcasters.

2:46:482:46:52

We have the Electoral Commission

that confirm to me they cannot use

2:46:522:46:57

civil sanctioning power on non-EU

-based individuals or conduct taking

2:46:572:47:00

place outside of the UK. But a

significant because as my honourable

2:47:002:47:06

friend said there is a risk money

came in to support campaigns from

2:47:062:47:11

abroad. We had the Advertising

Standards Authority that has

2:47:112:47:16

expressed to me grave disquiet about

the fact they can ban political

2:47:162:47:20

advertising on broadcast but they

cannot ban political advertising on

2:47:202:47:25

targeted social media platforms. The

challenge we have got today is that

2:47:252:47:30

there are five key steps we have got

to take. It is ludicrous that the

2:47:302:47:36

national security strategy does not

include a specific objective to

2:47:362:47:40

defend the integrity of our

democracy. We have got to review the

2:47:402:47:44

e-commerce directive as recommended

and if the Government does not bring

2:47:442:47:50

forward consultation, we on this

side of the House will. It is time

2:47:502:47:54

to look again at the 2003

Communications Act, we want to know

2:47:542:47:58

in particular why the Electoral

Commission is not using the power it

2:47:582:48:03

has to investigate collusion between

Aggregate IQ and Cambridge

2:48:032:48:12

Analytica. The Electoral Commission

needs new powers. And we need a

2:48:122:48:18

different generation of responses

like that active measures working

2:48:182:48:20

group. With a line of Abraham

Lincoln, the price of freedom is

2:48:202:48:27

constant vigilance. It is time

discovered opened its eyes and

2:48:272:48:33

started acting. -- this government

opened its eyes.

Thank you for the

2:48:332:48:40

opportunity to speak today and I am

grateful, as are all honourable and

2:48:402:48:45

right honourable members here, for

the member for Castleton for

2:48:452:48:50

bringing the debate forward. It is

the first role of government to

2:48:502:48:54

protect the nation and its people

and to safeguard our democracy and

2:48:542:48:58

we recognise and acknowledge the

concern express by the house today

2:48:582:49:03

about the threat posed to our

politics and society by the

2:49:032:49:07

exploitation of digital technology

and platform. And we are very happy

2:49:072:49:10

to work with members right across

the House. Digital technology brings

2:49:102:49:17

huge benefits and we celebrate the

freedom that they bestow but they

2:49:172:49:21

allow malign actors knew means by

which to communicate too. We are

2:49:212:49:26

committed to defending the UK from

all forms of malign state

2:49:262:49:30

interference whether from Russia or

anywhere else. When there is any

2:49:302:49:35

suggestion that the Kremlin has

sought to interfere in the political

2:49:352:49:41

process, we treat such allegations

seriously and carefully. And the

2:49:412:49:44

position is that to date we have not

yet seen evidence of successful

2:49:442:49:49

interference in UK democratic

processes by foreign government.

I

2:49:492:49:54

am very grateful. This is an

interesting divergence between the

2:49:542:49:59

three government ministers who have

spoken on this. First of all, it was

2:49:592:50:03

I have seen no evidence the Russians

were trying to do anything. Then it

2:50:032:50:09

was, the version today, I have not

seen any successful interventions.

2:50:092:50:12

What would success be? How is he

defining success? I presume he means

2:50:122:50:19

there have been attempts.

We have

seen no evidence of interference

2:50:192:50:23

that has successfully affected

democratic outcomes in the UK. By a

2:50:232:50:31

foreign government. That has been

the UK of my position for some time.

2:50:312:50:37

Success in the political process

would potentially involve changing

2:50:372:50:41

the result of that political process

and we have not seen successful

2:50:412:50:47

evidence of that.

I thank him. Part

of the reason why we are finding it

2:50:472:50:53

difficult to establish the impact is

puzzled the lack of information

2:50:532:50:57

coming from social media companies

-- is the lack of information. Would

2:50:572:51:02

he join on calling Facebook in

particular to collaborate fully with

2:51:022:51:10

the inquiry?

Absolutely. I will

express that in pretty firm terms

2:51:102:51:13

later in my speech. The point is we

have not yet seen evidence of this,

2:51:132:51:19

but we nonetheless remain vigilant.

I can assure the House that the

2:51:192:51:24

whole of government is alert to the

threat and working across government

2:51:242:51:27

on it.

On this point, aside from the

evidence published out of the

2:51:272:51:33

American inquiry, does the

Government have evidence of intent,

2:51:332:51:36

whether or not the activity was

successful, as they define it?

As

2:51:362:51:42

several members have pointed out in

the debate, there is evidence

2:51:422:51:45

already in the public domain of

activity. The question is the scale

2:51:452:51:52

of the activity. And whether it is

significant or not significant.

2:51:522:51:56

There is not yet evidence of

successful interference in UK

2:51:562:52:02

democratic processes. As the Prime

Minister made clear... OK.

I am

2:52:022:52:09

grateful. I too question the

criteria of success because there is

2:52:092:52:18

evidence of success in that it is

provoking consternation and

2:52:182:52:23

questioning of Democratic results

and policies in our own country,

2:52:232:52:26

that is the criteria of success.

What we want to hear is that GCHQ

2:52:262:52:31

will aggressively target the

generation of this material and do

2:52:312:52:34

its best to block it and be much

more proactive. Maybe he is coming

2:52:342:52:39

to that.

I will come to that, an

extremely important point with

2:52:392:52:43

respect to the cyber attacks in this

space. As the Prime Minister made

2:52:432:52:48

clear in a speech in the Guildhall

in November, we want to build a more

2:52:482:52:52

productive relationship with Russia,

but we also want to see Russia pay

2:52:522:52:55

its full and proper role in a rules

-based international order. We do

2:52:552:53:00

not hesitate in calling behaviour

which undermines the order, nor

2:53:002:53:05

which threatens our interests at

home overseas.

If there was not

2:53:052:53:11

evidence of successful intervention,

was that evidence of unsuccessful

2:53:112:53:14

intervention? If so, what was it?

There has already been some evidence

2:53:142:53:19

declared, for instance, the

declaration by Facebook of some paid

2:53:192:53:25

for advertising by organisations

that also were involved in US

2:53:252:53:33

democratic processes. However, as we

know, the scale of that which is

2:53:332:53:37

currently declared by Facebook is

extremely small and is in fact 97

2:53:372:53:45

cents. I will get on to the point

about transparency of information

2:53:452:53:48

because we do not think it

represents the whole gamut of

2:53:482:53:52

activity. We have identified Russia

as being responsible for a sustained

2:53:522:53:57

campaign of cyber espionage and

disruption around the world and when

2:53:572:54:01

we have seen the Kremlin deploy

disinformation in an attempt to sow

2:54:012:54:05

division and medal in overseas

elections and deflect attention away

2:54:052:54:09

from international incidents such as

the downing of MH17 or the use of

2:54:092:54:13

chemical weapons by the Syrian

regime, we have rightly raised these

2:54:132:54:17

concerns on the international stage.

However, challenging -- however

2:54:172:54:23

challenging our relationship might

be, it is essential we keep channels

2:54:232:54:30

of communication open with the

Russians and the Kremlin. To that

2:54:302:54:34

end, the Foreign Secretary will be

in Moscow tomorrow and while there,

2:54:342:54:38

he will firmly and clearly raise our

concerns over the use of

2:54:382:54:41

disinformation and cyber and

reaffirm the PM's message about

2:54:412:54:49

wanting to have a more productive

relationship based on mutual trust.

2:54:492:54:53

I thank him for giving way. Does he

agree with me in terms of cultural

2:54:532:54:58

exchanges, the work of the British

Council and others, and he may not

2:54:582:55:02

be able to answer now, but he can

write to me, will he guaranteed the

2:55:022:55:07

funding for organisations like the

British Council who are doing

2:55:072:55:10

remarkable work in places like

Russia?

Of course we support the

2:55:102:55:14

British Council. I thought the

honourable member spoke well, but I

2:55:142:55:18

felt slightly sorry for him. At the

same time his former leader is on RT

2:55:182:55:26

taking the RT shilling and I can

confirm Alex Salmond's show is

2:55:262:55:29

already under investigation by

Ofcom. It is rather difficult for

2:55:292:55:34

the SNP spokesman to say anything on

this matter when he's completely

2:55:342:55:38

contradicted in his attitude and

tone by the former leader of the

2:55:382:55:40

SNP.

I am grateful to the Minister.

I felt obliged to intervene again.

2:55:402:55:47

He is a former Member of Parliament,

current Conservative Members of

2:55:472:55:52

Parliament taking pay for

appearances on RT, does he think

2:55:522:55:56

that should be cracked down on?

I

think it is wholly inappropriate to

2:55:562:56:00

appear on RT and I would not do it

myself. I think the SNP needs to

2:56:002:56:06

take a cold, hard look at itself and

its own relationship in this regard

2:56:062:56:11

but I feel sorry for him because I

thought he made quite a good speech

2:56:112:56:15

and lots of good points. If I come

on too many of the points raised in

2:56:152:56:20

the debate directly, if I can

respond to some, firstly, on the

2:56:202:56:24

question of the national security

strategy, raised by the right

2:56:242:56:27

honourable member opposite and also

the members for Exeter and Ilford,

2:56:272:56:31

they asked it be a top priority for

the national security strategy and I

2:56:312:56:35

can tell them we take all of the

allegations very seriously and the

2:56:352:56:40

Russian threat in all its forms is a

tier one national security issue and

2:56:402:56:45

I can give him that reassurance. If

I can respond to some of the points

2:56:452:56:49

made directly by the member for

Carshalton. He asked whether there

2:56:492:56:53

had been discussions with Facebook

and others, the answer is, yes,

2:56:532:56:58

these discussions have been led by

DC MS because we lead the overall

2:56:582:57:02

relationship with the platforms. He

asked political parties to be

2:57:022:57:06

treated as sea knife. We think they

should be differently regulated

2:57:062:57:10

treated as sea knife. We think they

should be differently regulated. --

2:57:102:57:13

sea knife. We will continue to

strengthen cyber security guidance

2:57:132:57:19

for political parties but they are

different and it is vital that we do

2:57:192:57:26

not surrender our own values of

liberal democracy in response to

2:57:262:57:30

this threat. We welcome the ISC work

in this area included with the

2:57:302:57:36

Electoral Commission. The Electoral

Commission does have the resources

2:57:362:57:40

and the powers to follow the money

and on the point of the money

2:57:402:57:44

internationally, any international

money funding British political

2:57:442:57:51

activity political parties and

regulated activity is not

2:57:512:57:56

appropriate, so whether the

Electoral Commission can go further

2:57:562:58:00

is not relevant. If it is

international, it is not right.

2:58:002:58:04

Finally, he raised the point about

imprints on online ads and I can

2:58:042:58:08

confirm the Electoral Commission are

looking at that. Finally, he asked

2:58:082:58:16

about RT, there is a robust

regulatory framework in place for

2:58:162:58:21

broadcasting, as was discussed, and

Ofcom has found RT to be in breach

2:58:212:58:25

of the regulator's broadcasting code

and 13 separate occasions. The

2:58:252:58:30

members for Exeter and others spoke

passionately about their views of

2:58:302:58:34

Russia and another member made the

point that the question is not about

2:58:342:58:41

whether there were Russian attempts

at interference, the question is the

2:58:412:58:49

degree. I agree there is no evidence

of successful intervention. Another

2:58:492:58:57

member has a long experience in this

battle for mines and I strongly

2:58:572:59:00

agree that it is crucial that online

users are able critically to analyse

2:59:002:59:08

and properly questioned sources of

information especially relating to

2:59:082:59:11

political activity and I would say

we have got to have the confidence

2:59:112:59:15

he is right, our best defence

fundamentally is our critical

2:59:152:59:21

faculties as a society and long-term

work to ensure that its strong is

2:59:212:59:25

important. To finish my speech,

Madam Deputy Speaker. This has been

2:59:252:59:33

a very informed debate, in

recognition of the new threats posed

2:59:332:59:38

by cyber, the new centre mentioned

by my right honourable friend, the

2:59:382:59:41

chair of the select committee, has

stepped up to support political

2:59:412:59:47

parties to encourage them to support

and protect the data they hold. But

2:59:472:59:52

there is a distinction between cyber

security word that is an attack to

2:59:522:59:59

break down data holding systems

which the

2:59:593:00:05

And the open publication of

misleading disinformation. These are

3:00:113:00:18

separate issues and in government it

is for the NCSC to deal with cyber

3:00:183:00:24

attacks but not make judgments about

this information because they are a

3:00:243:00:28

security agency. The electoral

system is one of the most robust. It

3:00:283:00:32

is a matter for the government to

take a view but not for the National

3:00:323:00:36

Security cyber. The manual counting

system is difficult if not difficult

3:00:363:00:43

to manipulate through direct cyber

attack, but cyber is one of the

3:00:433:00:46

issues here. The Electoral

Commission was raised many times and

3:00:463:00:53

it has opened investigations into a

number of private campaign

3:00:533:00:58

financing, including around the

European referendum. It is right

3:00:583:01:04

whether we consider whether the

Electoral Commission is equipped

3:01:043:01:07

with the right powers to carry out

its critical function. There has

3:01:073:01:10

been suggestion on how the rules can

be tightened up and that includes

3:01:103:01:16

ideas from the commission itself and

that is as folk to consider whether

3:01:163:01:21

we should have the recognition of

increased role of social media

3:01:213:01:24

platforms. This should be done as

was set out so clearly by my

3:01:243:01:33

honourable friend from Solihull. We

expect social media companies,

3:01:333:01:37

including, but not limited to

Twitter, Facebook, Google and

3:01:373:01:42

Microsoft to comply with the select

committee's requests for

3:01:423:01:46

information. This comes to one of

the most important things that has

3:01:463:01:49

come of. The committee is due to

examine the top brass from Facebook,

3:01:493:01:54

Google on Twitter at a hearing in

February. These platforms recognise

3:01:543:01:58

there is a problem, they have made

progress we recognise. But there is

3:01:583:02:04

more famous do in terms of

transparency and cooperation. This

3:02:043:02:07

is a work in progress. There is much

more to do and we don't think the

3:02:073:02:11

select committee on this issue has

been given the straight answers we

3:02:113:02:15

expect. The published information is

entirely partial and inadequate. It

3:02:153:02:19

took the platform is a year to get

up to speed with what to do in the

3:02:193:02:25

US context and this time they must

do better and we do not rule out

3:02:253:02:28

taking further action if necessary.

They need to be part of the solution

3:02:283:02:33

and not the problem. The chair of

the select committee is an

3:02:333:02:36

incredibly reasonable man and his

reasonable demands must be met in

3:02:363:02:40

letter and in spirit. We welcome the

enquiry and we will look forward to

3:02:403:02:45

it studying its findings closely.

And finally, as the member the

3:02:453:02:54

Solihull said, the threats to our

democracy difference. They no longer

3:02:543:02:58

are vested in tanks, in the heart of

Europe, but in the ether, in

3:02:583:03:04

cyberspace, on the screens of

smartphones. We must have the

3:03:043:03:08

confidence that the robust and free

challenge of ideas is the best way

3:03:083:03:12

to decide the future of our country

but political discourse must be

3:03:123:03:17

based on objective reality, not

malicious disinformation from

3:03:173:03:19

abroad. Let's not fall into the trap

of feeble relativism. Let's send a

3:03:193:03:26

message loud and clear, true

Parliamentary democracy is more free

3:03:263:03:32

and just and in a new generation, we

are called to protect the freedom,

3:03:323:03:36

protect the Justice and protect our

way of life. We must not fail.

I

3:03:363:03:44

would just like to say, I thank the

Minister for the tough words he said

3:03:443:03:48

about the social media companies,

but could I add to that, we also

3:03:483:03:52

need to ensure the security services

provide them with the information

3:03:523:03:56

they may have so they can follow the

leads that have already been

3:03:563:04:00

obtained by the intelligence

services. I hope the Minister will

3:04:003:04:04

take from this debate, the House

demands the UK Government

3:04:043:04:09

prioritises defending democracy from

Russian interference.

The question

3:04:093:04:16

is this House has considered Russian

interference in the UK politics and

3:04:163:04:20

society. As many as are of the

opinion say "aye". To the contrary,

3:04:203:04:26

"no". The ayes have it, the ayes

have it. We now come to the

3:04:263:04:34

backbench debate on matters to be

raised before the forthcoming

3:04:343:04:38

adjournment, Bob Blackman to move.

You will be aware that unfortunately

3:04:383:04:45

the chairman of the backbench

business committee, the honourable

3:04:453:04:49

member from Gateshead had to return

to his constituency earlier so he

3:04:493:04:52

has asked me to lead off with the

debate. I beg to move this House has

3:04:523:04:58

considered matters before the

adjournment. Can I kick off, I am

3:04:583:05:03

sure, expressing their wishes to the

whole House to the chairman of ways

3:05:033:05:06

and means to his family during this

terrible tragedy and we hope he has

3:05:063:05:13

the most peaceful Christmas and New

Year as possible under these

3:05:133:05:16

dreadful circumstances. I kick off

with particular issues I want to

3:05:163:05:20

raise before we adjourn in dealing

with the matter of homelessness. I

3:05:203:05:25

make no apologies for pointing out

to the House, my Homelessness

3:05:253:05:29

Reduction Act, which was almost the

last act, which was given Royal

3:05:293:05:34

assent before we broke up for the

general election, is still yet to go

3:05:343:05:40

into law finally. It becomes law on

the 1st of April 2018. The

3:05:403:05:46

government have just concluded a

very detailed consultation on a 180

3:05:463:05:52

page document on the advice that's

given to local authorities about the

3:05:523:05:57

act and also how homeless people are

to be treated in this country. The C

3:05:573:06:03

G select committee has given

evidence to that consultation and I

3:06:033:06:07

look forward, in the New Year, to

the government coming forward with

3:06:073:06:11

recommendations which meant that

consultation document slightly, to

3:06:113:06:15

make it more user-friendly to the

people that need help, namely the

3:06:153:06:19

people that are homeless. Equally,

this of course is the longest

3:06:193:06:26

private members bill in history and

the most expensive. And so, it is

3:06:263:06:31

clear it is going to be a revolution

in how homeless people are treated

3:06:313:06:35

in this country. Equally in the New

Year, the secondary legislation is

3:06:353:06:42

required to actually bring the act

into full force, will come before

3:06:423:06:46

the House, I believe in February.

Clearly, there is still work to be

3:06:463:06:51

done to get this in place, as is

required. The having-macro I commend

3:06:513:07:00

the amazing work he has done with

this legislation, important as it

3:07:003:07:05

is.

I was with an amazing group of

people at the shelter office in

3:07:053:07:11

Birmingham yesterday and

particularly talking to workers who

3:07:113:07:14

have been through the experience of

street homelessness and could

3:07:143:07:17

provide incredible and important

support, they raised the issue of

3:07:173:07:22

the way in which sanctions in the

benefit system are applied to street

3:07:223:07:27

homeless people, many who are

suffering from mental health and

3:07:273:07:31

addiction issues. With the best will

in the world they have no way of

3:07:313:07:34

ensuring they attend a benefit

meeting a week or a fortnight away.

3:07:343:07:42

They miss the meeting and then they

have no money for a month and then

3:07:423:07:45

longer. This is something we surely

should address in the civilised

3:07:453:07:48

treatment of these people?

Clearly,

people who are street homeless,

3:07:483:07:55

sleeping on the streets, rough, have

chaotic lives. They don't work to

3:07:553:07:59

the timetable is everyone else does.

It is wrong in principle that they

3:07:593:08:04

be penalised when, through no fault

of their own they fail to attend

3:08:043:08:08

such meetings and therefore, their

benefits are taken away from them

3:08:083:08:12

and we have to do more. What we do

know, above all else, every person

3:08:123:08:17

that is homeless is a unique case

and therefore should be treated in

3:08:173:08:27

such a way, sympathetically. This is

the 50th anniversary of the founding

3:08:273:08:29

of crisis. One of my political

heroes was the late Sir Ian McKellen

3:08:293:08:35

out who helped fund and also start

crisis and it started off as Crisis

3:08:353:08:42

At Christmas but has gone on to be

Crisis through the year. All

3:08:423:08:50

members, this is your opportunity to

make a difference. The crisis

3:08:503:08:54

Christmas single, Streets Of London

has been re-recorded to commemorate

3:08:543:09:01

the 50th anniversary of crisis. It

of course has the Criis choir and

3:09:013:09:10

the guest vocalist of Annie Lennox.

All members of staff can download

3:09:103:09:16

the single and 99p and we can aim to

make it the Christmas number one. If

3:09:163:09:21

members are not convinced of buying

The Streets Of London they can

3:09:213:09:28

download Phil Ryan's Christmas

single who has worked with Lord

3:09:283:09:33

Bird, the founder of the big issue.

They have been working together for

3:09:333:09:37

26 years and he has launched the

single, Walking Down The Lonely

3:09:373:09:45

Street at a time about talking of

loneliness and homelessness, those

3:09:453:09:52

go hand-in-hand. It would be great

if all members downloaded and

3:09:523:09:56

supported.

He will be aware of

churches doing huge amount to

3:09:563:10:03

provide night shelters at this time

of year. In my own in Christchurch

3:10:033:10:09

in Colliers Wood, they provide, as

part of a group of churches, our

3:10:093:10:15

hostel from November through to

January. As a person of faith, it is

3:10:153:10:19

great to see that action. But it is

a greatly desperate thing to be

3:10:193:10:25

happening.

This time of year we

should commend all of those

3:10:253:10:31

volunteers who give up their time at

Christmas and throughout the year to

3:10:313:10:36

help homeless people. In my

constituency, we have Firm

3:10:363:10:41

Foundation who does a brilliant job

and I am sure every constituency has

3:10:413:10:45

such groups are people who come

together to help the street

3:10:453:10:49

homeless. Can I also say, we have

had two successes in the budget,

3:10:493:10:54

which we should celebrate. The

helped to rent proposals which will

3:10:543:10:58

help upwards of 20,000 families to

get together a deposit for a rental

3:10:583:11:04

property. And indeed, the funding to

start with, of the housing first

3:11:043:11:12

project in three pilots. I think it

is a good start but we need to see

3:11:123:11:15

that rolled out right across the

country. He clearly than the budget

3:11:153:11:22

we had a huge win on the staircase

tax. This was going to affect 90,000

3:11:223:11:27

businesses across the UK, following

the Supreme Court's decision to

3:11:273:11:33

allow the valuation office to levy

rates individually on offices that

3:11:333:11:37

are on separate floors or corridors.

It came to me, one particular

3:11:373:11:43

campaigner in my constituency, came

to see me. I lobbied the Chancellor

3:11:433:11:46

and I am pleased to see that many

other members across the House did

3:11:463:11:52

so as well and the Chancellor

listened to what we had to say. Can

3:11:523:11:56

I also say, there is some unfinished

business that needs to be concluded

3:11:563:12:00

in Parliament. First off on

consultation on removing casters in

3:12:003:12:12

the characteristic equality law.

There were thousands of responses

3:12:123:12:16

from the British Hindu community.

We're now await the British

3:12:163:12:21

government bringing forward

legislation to remove this ill

3:12:213:12:24

thought out, divisive and

unnecessary legislation from our

3:12:243:12:28

statute book. Equally, we have the

plight of Equitable Life

3:12:283:12:33

policyholders and I am the

co-chairman of the all-party group.

3:12:333:12:38

Still we have an outstanding debt of

£2.6 billion that is owed to those

3:12:383:12:43

people who invested their money,

listen to the advice and were

3:12:433:12:47

victims of a terrible scam. It was

also, we had the 99th anniversary of

3:12:473:12:54

the great union in Romania, where

Romanians gathered to celebrate the

3:12:543:13:00

joining of Transylvania into

Romania. I had the privilege, as the

3:13:003:13:04

chairman of the all-party group for

Rumania, to attend a national

3:13:043:13:08

celebration at the embassy. I wish

about 10,000 of my constituents are

3:13:083:13:15

very happy national day at the time

as well. Equally, this time of year

3:13:153:13:23

would not be complete without some

local issues that I just want to

3:13:233:13:26

raise. First, the issues of what I

can only describe as the North Face

3:13:263:13:33

of the Tiger at Stan Moore station.

As one arrives at the end of the

3:13:333:13:38

terminal at the travelling on the

Jubilee line, one is met by 49 steps

3:13:383:13:44

to reach the street level. There is

no lift, it was taken out by a

3:13:443:13:50

previous Mayor of London from the

whole plan, but there has been a

3:13:503:13:56

consultation from the Department for

Transport. Hundreds of my

3:13:563:13:59

constituents have campaigned for

lives of various stations. I look

3:13:593:14:05

forward to the Department for

Transport coming forward with the

3:14:053:14:08

funding necessary to make that

happen. We have had the scandal of

3:14:083:14:14

the hive, where Harrow Council

basically sold, for a relatively

3:14:143:14:23

small sum of money, the hive sports

ground to ban it club. Well he led

3:14:233:14:30

an adjournment debate on this,

subsequent to that, Barnet Football

3:14:303:14:34

Club, having acquired the whole

land, have submitted planning

3:14:343:14:42

applications to over develop the

site, to which local people are

3:14:423:14:46

objecting. And I will also mention,

the issue of broadband import of my

3:14:463:14:55

constituency in Stan Moore. People

often think of rural areas having

3:14:553:14:59

problems with broadband. I suggest

you come to my constituency where

3:14:593:15:03

the various providers refused to

provide high-speed broadband to

3:15:033:15:11

residents, even though many of them

need that desperately. So we look

3:15:113:15:18

forward to the providers being

forced to provide high-speed

3:15:183:15:21

broadband in the way it should be.

3:15:213:15:26

I have continued the work on trying

to encourage free schools in my

3:15:263:15:30

constituency to open and develop. We

have to Mariposa free school and

3:15:303:15:39

another proposed for my

constituency, but strongly supported

3:15:393:15:42

by local residents but objected to

by Harrow council and I trust they

3:15:423:15:48

will remove those objections so we

can see first rate schools being set

3:15:483:15:53

up for the constituents I have the

honour of representing. Can I also

3:15:533:15:59

just raise three local issues I

think are important in relation to

3:15:593:16:06

where we are going? I attended the

opening of the new facility in

3:16:063:16:17

Belmont, in my constituency, which

gives support to young people to be

3:16:173:16:20

able to learn to write code in a

fashion... They are learning it from

3:16:203:16:28

that age of five, writing computer

code, an excellent way of ensuring

3:16:283:16:33

our young people are getting the

type of education they need to

3:16:333:16:36

complement what they receive within

school. Also at this time of year,

3:16:363:16:41

although we are celebrating

Christmas, it is of course the

3:16:413:16:45

Festival of Hanukah as well and we

brought members of the public

3:16:453:16:59

together from all faiths and none to

make sure they all recognise that

3:16:593:17:03

the multicultural nature of London

and the multicultural nature

3:17:033:17:06

particularly of Harrow. I would also

mentions the brilliant work being

3:17:063:17:15

done by Harrow Mencap, connecting

communities. I mentioned earlier we

3:17:153:17:25

should concentrate not on people's

handicaps, but on what things they

3:17:253:17:29

can do. Harrow men cup are a prime

exhort the -- Harrow Mencap get the

3:17:293:17:39

best out of them, ensuring they have

the opportunity to live a full and

3:17:393:17:45

active life, getting a job where

appropriate and bringing people

3:17:453:17:48

together from across the

communities, many whom the macro of

3:17:483:17:52

whom are very isolated. -- many of

whom are very isolated. Can I wish

3:17:523:17:58

you and your colleagues, the whole

House, all members of the house, all

3:17:583:18:05

members of staff, are very happy

Christmas? A very restful period

3:18:053:18:10

over the break. And we look forward

to 2018 being a very happy,

3:18:103:18:16

peaceful, prosperous, but above all

else, healthy New Year.

I thank the

3:18:163:18:23

honourable gentleman for his kind

words on behalf of all of the House

3:18:233:18:28

and it is a great pleasure to wish

everybody and peaceful Christmas.

3:18:283:18:32

The question is that this House has

considered matters to be raised

3:18:323:18:39

before the forthcoming adjournment

and my first consideration, I'm

3:18:393:18:43

afraid, has had to be to put a time

limit on speeches because as the

3:18:433:18:47

House knows, we are quite limited

this afternoon so we begin with a

3:18:473:18:51

time limit seven minutes.

It is a

great pleasure to follow the

3:18:513:18:58

honourable gentleman's wide-ranging

speech and he mentioned the

3:18:583:19:02

Christmas number one and I just want

to mention three themes wall with a

3:19:023:19:07

Christmas link. The first is the

complete absence or near complete

3:19:073:19:14

absence of trains on Boxing Day in

the UK outside of Scotland. This is

3:19:143:19:19

a situation that does not exist in

the rest of Europe where a

3:19:193:19:23

conference of train service is

provided throughout the Christmas

3:19:233:19:25

holiday -- a full train service. It

is worth this year than in previous

3:19:253:19:35

years. The great Bear pots of

Heathrow and Gatwick served by buses

3:19:353:19:39

this year rather than trains -- the

great airports. The only other line

3:19:393:19:44

in England which has a train service

is relevant to Oxford -- Marylebone

3:19:443:19:53

to Oxford. Merseyrail for the last

three years have run a service on

3:19:533:20:00

selected stations and each year it

is going from strength to strength.

3:20:003:20:07

This year, Liverpool Football Club

are at home in the early evening at

3:20:073:20:10

Anfield on Boxing Day, there is a

service running well into the

3:20:103:20:14

evening to allow fans of Liverpool

Football Club to get to the game and

3:20:143:20:17

get home. They are virtually unique

of English football fans of being

3:20:173:20:23

able to do that. The House of

Commons Library tells me that it was

3:20:233:20:28

not always like this in Christmases

past, up until 1975, there was a

3:20:283:20:35

Sunday service provided on most of

the rail network. It was gradually

3:20:353:20:39

run down until it all but

disappeared in 1980. He made well

3:20:393:20:46

ask, why is this a particular

problem? -- you may well ask. For

3:20:463:20:50

some people, it means they cannot go

home for Christmas, if they have to

3:20:503:20:55

work first thing on 27th of

December, they cannot travel back on

3:20:553:21:00

the 26th. Their sporting events, I

will be at my beloved family parade

3:21:003:21:05

watching Bradford City take on

Peterborough. I have bet on the

3:21:053:21:13

genie later of Bradford City, Leeds

and Burnley all winning that day to

3:21:133:21:17

cover my bases in the constituency

-- I have bet on an accumulator.

3:21:173:21:24

There are sales, there is all sorts

of events, theatres and so on, and

3:21:243:21:28

we often talk in this House about

loneliness and it is too long to

3:21:283:21:33

close down this network, for nearly

60 hours, not to speak of what it

3:21:333:21:40

does for the environment as well.

There is some hope in the north of

3:21:403:21:45

England, in the Northern Rail

franchise, Northern Rail will have

3:21:453:21:50

to provide 60 services next Boxing

Day, 2018, those will be the first

3:21:503:21:55

trains hopefully in Yorkshire. Since

1980, I believe. Trans-Pennine are

3:21:553:22:03

obliged to suggest the Government

Boxing Day services which they have

3:22:033:22:05

done and I hope the Government will

find or discuss those with

3:22:053:22:11

trans-Pennine and the necessary

funding will mean Manchester Airport

3:22:113:22:15

will be served for the first time

ever, its busiest day, there should

3:22:153:22:20

be trains. If there are trains at

Stansted, good enough. Instead, it

3:22:203:22:25

is good enough for Manchester. I

think we need to stop the blame game

3:22:253:22:30

between the two frontbenchers --

good enough for Stansted, it is good

3:22:303:22:37

enough Manchester. Every December

the 26, it draws attention to this.

3:22:373:22:41

Whether the railways are in public

or private hands, the House must

3:22:413:22:48

insist there is a basic service on

Boxing Day. Moving on to food, I am

3:22:483:22:53

looking forward to my Christmas

dinner, but can we trust the food on

3:22:533:22:57

the table? There was a report from

the Guardian about chicken

3:22:573:23:01

processing plant in particular the

food group two Sisters in September

3:23:013:23:09

which suggested standards were well

below what we would expect. In West

3:23:093:23:15

Brom, there was chicken on the

floor, production was suspended. It

3:23:153:23:19

has got worse in recent days. They

have now revealed Tesco gave a red

3:23:193:23:29

warning to Hanukah food group, they

have 12 plants altogether, it was

3:23:293:23:33

another one about the same time --

to two Sisters food group, Cupar

3:23:333:23:40

Angus, in this case, the labelling

was virtually nonexistent, some

3:23:403:23:45

chicken had been condemned as unfit

for human consumption, it was not

3:23:453:23:50

clear what had happened to it, but

it is extremely worrying that Tesco

3:23:503:23:54

knew this and yet the chief

executive did a press conference in

3:23:543:23:59

October, David Lewis, he was asked,

did he have any knowledge the

3:23:593:24:03

problem is extended beyond the West

Bromwich plant, he answered, in his

3:24:033:24:08

knowledge, Tesco did not have

anything that would indicate that

3:24:083:24:11

what was seen in West Bromwich was

present in any of the others. Yet

3:24:113:24:15

Tesco had just given a red warning.

I think he has some explaining to

3:24:153:24:22

do. Why did Tesco not provide this

information to the public and the

3:24:223:24:30

Food Standards Agency? All

supermarkets should do this in the

3:24:303:24:32

future and I think there should be

CCTV in all plants, as in abattoirs,

3:24:323:24:40

so that at Christmas time and

through the year, we can trust the

3:24:403:24:43

food on our table. Finally, we have

already had a couple of references

3:24:433:24:47

to the importance of churches at

Christmas. In Yorkshire, we are

3:24:473:24:52

particularly proud on BBC One on the

live midnight Mass this year comes

3:24:523:24:55

from the Catholic Cathedral in

Leeds. It has a magnificent choir.

3:24:553:25:02

Members across the House in recent

years on occasion have been critical

3:25:023:25:06

of the BBC's commitment to religious

broadcasting. In the last few days,

3:25:063:25:11

I think the BBC have responded with

a rather good report which I commend

3:25:113:25:16

to the House. I think they are

recognising they alone are the

3:25:163:25:21

public service broadcasters and have

a responsibility to bring religious

3:25:213:25:24

broadcasting to the country, they

have committed to having a religious

3:25:243:25:29

affairs editor and religious team

backing them and I would commend

3:25:293:25:32

that report to the House. All that

remains for me to do is to wish you

3:25:323:25:37

and the House and Merry Christmas

and to reveal, I mentioned my

3:25:373:25:41

football but, my accompanying bet,

charity bet, placed at Ladbrokes,

3:25:413:25:46

for the King George, the big horse

race, another part of the sporting

3:25:463:25:51

Christmas on Boxing Day, was for

Thistle Crack.

I cannot follow the

3:25:513:26:03

previous speaker on anything except

wishing everyone a Merry Christmas.

3:26:033:26:11

This sporting interest, a round

ball. I prefer the ball with a

3:26:113:26:16

slight tweaking at the end. I want

to raise one issue, unfashionably,

3:26:163:26:20

it is and then's issue. It is

well-known to the House and the

3:26:203:26:25

Sunday Telegraph I am a very

part-time dentist and I chaired the

3:26:253:26:29

all-party Parliamentary group for

dentistry this means the profession

3:26:293:26:34

push me for various causes and this

one I want to raise. I wish the

3:26:343:26:44

Government to extend HPV vaccination

to boys as well as girls. I raise

3:26:443:26:47

the issue now and it might be timely

because I understand the Joint

3:26:473:26:52

Committee on Vaccination and

Immunisation is about to report to

3:26:523:26:54

the Secretary of State for Health on

this issue. There are a number of

3:26:543:26:58

HPV viruses, two are very nasty. The

vaccination of girls against the

3:26:583:27:03

virus is to stop survive cut cancer.

These viruses also calls genital

3:27:033:27:09

warts and other cancers and slowly

but surely there will be with our

3:27:093:27:13

vaccination programme for girls, a

reasonable herd immunity. I'm saying

3:27:133:27:19

reasonable because the vaccination

is far from 100%, many girls start

3:27:193:27:23

the course but do not completed,

many do not start it. The viruses

3:27:233:27:29

also calls between 35 and 70% of

head and neck cancer, depending on

3:27:293:27:37

the anatomical site. For example,

70% of oropharyngeal cancers are

3:27:373:27:42

caused by the virus. Treatment of

head and neck cancers are often

3:27:423:27:47

debilitating, destructive to the

patients and their self-esteem.

3:27:473:27:51

Frequently radiology and surgery is

required and this involves the face,

3:27:513:27:55

the jaw, teeth, neck, tongue,

oesophagus, or combination physical

3:27:553:28:02

disfigurement is common, speech and

eating can be significantly impaired

3:28:023:28:08

and the global ranking of cancer

deaths, head and neck cancers rank

3:28:083:28:13

fifth. The prevalence of head and

neck cancer is markedly higher in

3:28:133:28:17

males than females. A ratio of two

to one. It is and then's problem.

3:28:173:28:23

The frequency of the cancer is one

of the fastest increasing in the UK

3:28:233:28:27

and the cost of treatment to the NHS

is astronomic. Vaccination

3:28:273:28:33

programmes can eliminate or

virtually eliminate certain diseases

3:28:333:28:35

by producing herd immunity. The

polio campaign is an example. The

3:28:353:28:41

success of the HPV vaccination for

girls in the UK is considerable but

3:28:413:28:48

it is not producing full herd

immunity. We recently had a

3:28:483:28:53

Westminster debate on HPV

vaccination for men who have sex

3:28:533:28:56

with men. In the case of... It is

relevant as to who is having sex

3:28:563:29:04

with you. There are still off a

portion of us left, heterosexual

3:29:043:29:09

men, we are very vulnerable. The

estimate is that 10% of young girls

3:29:093:29:14

do not get the full vaccination

cover, research suggests 20% of

3:29:143:29:22

16-24-year-old men have had ten or

more sexual partners, so

3:29:223:29:26

statistically, one of those partners

had not been vaccinated. Vaccination

3:29:263:29:35

programme for girls and boys would

stand a chance of herd immunity. Set

3:29:353:29:41

the cost against the 58,000,004

treating genital warts and way over

3:29:413:29:46

300,000,004 head and neck cancer,

what is important is not who is

3:29:463:29:51

having sex with who, but the need

for the herd immunity. If Australia,

3:29:513:29:58

Austria, Canada, Israel, the US,

Switzerland, New Zealand, if they

3:29:583:30:01

can manage this, we can too. To put

it simply, it is not fair, not

3:30:013:30:08

ethical, not socially responsible to

have a public health policy that

3:30:083:30:13

leaves 50% of the population

vulnerable to HPV and head and neck

3:30:133:30:17

cancer.

Thank you. I will be brief.

I believe that one of the best uses

3:30:173:30:28

of time in the future in this

parliament would be a thoughtful

3:30:283:30:33

consideration of how the devolved

administrations and the UK

3:30:333:30:35

Parliament can work best together to

benefit constituents and

3:30:353:30:40

particularly constituents in my

faster and far-flung part of

3:30:403:30:43

Scotland. I will touch on three

subjects which I apologise for

3:30:433:30:48

because you have heard most of them

before but I am duty bound to do so.

3:30:483:30:56

The first is broadband. When you are

dealing with distances adds -- as

3:30:563:31:03

fast as mine, it presents particular

challenges. In the past we have seen

3:31:033:31:06

in this chamber not so long ago a

bit backwards and forwards between

3:31:063:31:10

either side about whose fault it is.

I don't want to get into that but it

3:31:103:31:15

seems to me that if one could have a

meeting of minds, perhaps we could

3:31:153:31:20

work together to tackle this issue.

Because I am a Remainer, as everyone

3:31:203:31:25

in this chamber knows. Whatever form

Brexit Britain takes, we will need

3:31:253:31:31

connectivity absolutely in the

future if we are to compete in a

3:31:313:31:33

world market. I hope we can all

accept that. Equally, I have many

3:31:333:31:41

times mentioned universal credit,

but the problems it presents to my

3:31:413:31:46

constituents, inasmuch as many of

them cannot go online to access it.

3:31:463:31:49

Enough said on broadband. In the

north of my constituency, we have an

3:31:493:31:58

atomic energy, former nuclear power

station which has been

3:31:583:32:00

decommissioned. We have a skills

base there, second to none. And the

3:32:003:32:06

chance for me and for everyone who

cares about employment in the far

3:32:063:32:09

north of Scotland is to see how to

utilise these skills in future in

3:32:093:32:13

that area. At the Scottish

Government level we have the

3:32:133:32:17

Highlands and Islands enterprise,

trying to encourage economic

3:32:173:32:22

development. But we also have the

MDA, which is a function of

3:32:223:32:26

Westminster. So the more joined up,

I know it is a cliche, but the more

3:32:263:32:30

joined up we can be, the more I can

say to the working people in my

3:32:303:32:36

constituency, we are doing our best

to look to your future and to see

3:32:363:32:39

what we can do. The temptation would

be to go down the health route, and

3:32:393:32:46

I am sure members of the Scottish

National Party would yawn if I did

3:32:463:32:49

that. I am not going to. But I am

going to mention however, energy and

3:32:493:32:56

energy production. I received a

letter from a constituent who owns

3:32:563:33:00

and runs a business, an engineering

business. He has recently got

3:33:003:33:07

planning permission to build a

turbine which will cost him just

3:33:073:33:10

short of half £1 million to do. It

is great that he has got the

3:33:103:33:14

go-ahead. But due to problems with

the local electricity grid, he

3:33:143:33:19

cannot export that surplus energy he

is going to make. He is actually

3:33:193:33:25

faced with buying a large number of

electric heaters and heating the

3:33:253:33:31

night air. A nice idea, you might

think, to get rid of the insects and

3:33:313:33:36

keep the odd poacher warm, but it

does not achieve very much. We need

3:33:363:33:42

energy in this country, to make

every bit of energy we can and to

3:33:423:33:46

use it efficiently, so a joined up

view of government North and south

3:33:463:33:50

of the border would be hugely

helpful. I take a view, perhaps in

3:33:503:33:56

opposition to colleagues on benches

here, that the UK is here to stay.

3:33:563:34:01

And doing things for broadband and

energy, they do not respect national

3:34:013:34:05

boundaries, they are for the good of

the UK. The same goes with how we

3:34:053:34:09

decommissioned nuclear sites and use

the skills and approach the future.

3:34:093:34:14

That is really all I have to say

except, like others, I would like to

3:34:143:34:18

thank all that has been done in

here. I am no longer a new member. I

3:34:183:34:24

have been here six months. I want to

say something personal to me. I have

3:34:243:34:29

been touched by the kindliness,

support and advice I have received

3:34:293:34:34

from all sides and all parties in

this chamber. That is something that

3:34:343:34:39

strikes me as being very special

about how this place works and I am

3:34:393:34:44

deeply grateful. Can I wish Mr

Speaker, yourself and or the Deputy

3:34:443:34:48

speakers and every member of this

House and the other place as well,

3:34:483:34:52

not that I frequent it very often,

the merriest Christmas. I thank you.

3:34:523:35:02

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker.

Happy Christmas, everyone,

3:35:023:35:05

especially to my friend the

honourably brave lady for West Ham,

3:35:053:35:13

who sometimes speaks in debates such

as this one on procedures which far

3:35:133:35:20

too many women have had to undergo

without pain relief. And I wish to

3:35:203:35:25

put on record my full support for

her campaign to sort that out.

3:35:253:35:30

Personally today, I would like to

raise the matter of central

3:35:303:35:35

government funding on behalf of my

own constituency, Beckenham. We live

3:35:353:35:40

in the borough of Bromley, which is

represented in this place by three

3:35:403:35:44

Tories and one Labour MP. In 2017

and 2018, Bromley, of the 32 London

3:35:443:35:55

boroughs, have the fifth smallest

settlement funding. But it has the

3:35:553:36:00

seventh highest population.

Actually, Bromley is the largest

3:36:003:36:07

London borough in terms of

geographical size. It has one of the

3:36:073:36:11

highest proportions of older people,

and most certainly the most

3:36:113:36:16

extensive road network. Yet the

associated cost implications of

3:36:163:36:19

these factors are not reflected in

our settlement funding, which is the

3:36:193:36:24

second lowest, per head, in London.

Despite this, Bromley has dealt with

3:36:243:36:32

its finances extremely efficiently.

And our council tax remains

3:36:323:36:39

relatively low, considering the

local services provided and our low

3:36:393:36:44

central government funding

settlement. But it has not been

3:36:443:36:47

easy. Bromley Council has been

hugely innovative in tackling its

3:36:473:36:53

tasks. It has created as low a cost

base as possible, pioneering many

3:36:533:37:01

measures to balance cost, value and

outcomes. It has outsourced,

3:37:013:37:07

whenever that makes sense, and

within reason, and where it gets

3:37:073:37:12

most efficiency at low cost. And it

has created leisure trusts which

3:37:123:37:17

work. Finally, it does all this by

maintaining relentless cost control

3:37:173:37:25

measures on all its activities.

However, now most of the cost saving

3:37:253:37:33

measures which many other boroughs

have yet to take have been

3:37:333:37:36

implemented in Bromley. The obvious

implications for this, Madam Deputy

3:37:363:37:43

Speaker, is that there is little

scope to achieve many more savings.

3:37:433:37:50

Our flexibility on further cuts is

hugely constrained without reducing

3:37:503:37:54

our statutory requirements.

Bromley's core funding has been cut

3:37:543:37:59

higher than the London and England

average continuously since 2010.

3:37:593:38:06

This will have been reduced by 75%

in real terms over the course of the

3:38:063:38:11

decade. In core funding, real terms,

that means by 2020, Bromley's

3:38:113:38:19

central government funding will have

been reduced to a quarter of what it

3:38:193:38:23

was in 2010, although I accept that

it does have a new methods of

3:38:233:38:28

raising money. However, since 2010,

Bromley has managed to generate

3:38:283:38:35

savings of 90 million. But as is

obvious, the low-level and middle

3:38:353:38:42

level hanging fruit cuts have now

been taken. Bromley Council, with

3:38:423:38:49

reluctance, has no choice but to put

its statutory requirements into the

3:38:493:38:53

firing line. By 2030, Bromley's

population is expected to increase

3:38:533:39:01

considerably more than the national

average. But unfortunately, future

3:39:013:39:10

funding is currently not assessed on

population growth. Using GL a

3:39:103:39:16

central estimates between 2017 and

37, over six D5s are expected to

3:39:163:39:27

increase by 44% and over 90s are

expected to increase by 123%, which

3:39:273:39:32

is an overall population increase in

Bromley of 18% over that period.

3:39:323:39:40

Surely this must be considered when

actually looking at central

3:39:403:39:43

government funding. It is now widely

recognised that all areas of

3:39:433:39:49

England, in all areas of England

there is an urgent need for a fairer

3:39:493:39:55

system of central government

funding. It seems decision is on

3:39:553:39:59

this may be delayed until 2021. In

the meantime, Bromley could be

3:39:593:40:07

punished for being an ultra

efficient council. This is not only

3:40:073:40:11

unfair, it is wrong. For their part,

councillors in Bromley feel that our

3:40:113:40:18

efforts at keeping costs down and

making efficiencies are largely

3:40:183:40:21

unrecognised by the government.

Efficient running of local

3:40:213:40:27

government should be encouraged, not

penalised. So I ask the government

3:40:273:40:33

to reconsider the situation in

Bromley, recognise what has been

3:40:333:40:38

achieved, and ensure that the

Borough is properly supported in the

3:40:383:40:44

interim by another transitional

grant, which the Secretary of State

3:40:443:40:49

for communities and low of and has

previously provided to help us out.

3:40:493:40:52

I repeat, Madam Deputy Speaker,

happy Christmas to everyone.

3:40:523:40:59

Everyone in this chamber and

throughout the land. Thank you.

As

3:40:593:41:06

is customary, I would like to wish

everyone in this House a happy

3:41:063:41:10

Christmas and I wanted to raise and

unseasonal tale of big business, big

3:41:103:41:15

infrastructure and small business

that affects the Park Royal chunk of

3:41:153:41:21

my constituency. Park Royal was once

Europe's largest industrial estate.

3:41:213:41:26

Things like planes were built there

for both world wars, munitions, the

3:41:263:41:31

Heinz factory was there, Guinness

emanated from Park Royal. But now it

3:41:313:41:35

finds itself on the receiving end of

the heavy-handed HS2, so that is the

3:41:353:41:43

big infrastructure. In Ealing

Central and Acton, we have a lot of

3:41:433:41:45

these big infrastructure projects.

Planes going to Heathrow flight over

3:41:453:41:50

us, we are in the flight path.

Crossrail is coming to link east and

3:41:503:41:54

west to our patch of the world, and

so is HS2. But in this season of

3:41:543:42:02

goodwill and good faith, and I voted

for the HS2 project, I like the idea

3:42:023:42:07

of High Speed Rail Bill

connectivity. A bunch of small

3:42:073:42:11

businesses in the Park Royal

industrial estate feel they have

3:42:113:42:13

been shafted... Sorry, that is

unparliamentary language. Is that

3:42:133:42:20

OK? They have been ill treated by

HS2 at this time of year and they

3:42:203:42:24

wanted me to raise their plight. I

am doing that in this forum because

3:42:243:42:28

talking of goodwill, Robert

Goodwill, a member for Scarborough,

3:42:283:42:35

a good Yorkshireman, I remember

raising HS2 issues to him across

3:42:353:42:39

this House, and it worked for a time

being, so I am seeing if it works

3:42:393:42:44

again. He was then Minister for rail

and is now children's minister. In

3:42:443:42:49

2016 he came to Park Royal. I said,

would he come and see for himself

3:42:493:42:54

what is going on. It used to be a

place of big business and now it is

3:42:543:43:03

much smaller, Mediterranean food

manufacturers, prop hire, laundries,

3:43:033:43:06

all sorts of small family

businesses, families, livelihoods,

3:43:063:43:10

that sort of thing depends on it. It

has been named in the Independent as

3:43:103:43:17

a mini Beirut. That sounds scary but

many Middle Eastern food

3:43:173:43:21

manufacturers come out of Park

Royal. If you get back Laver in a

3:43:213:43:26

West End restaurant, it is likely to

have been made in my constituency. A

3:43:263:43:31

number of these small companies were

told initially when it happened that

3:43:313:43:34

they would be given six months to

relocate. There was no assurance

3:43:343:43:38

when that would happen, this whole

HS2 project. The minister came with

3:43:383:43:43

me. We sought assurances were

received that they would have a

3:43:433:43:49

relocation grant and they would have

good time in which they could start

3:43:493:43:52

their businesses up and running

again. A prop hire business. We know

3:43:523:43:57

one here has ever been to one of

those. It is a cause of square feet,

3:43:573:44:02

vintage telephones, all sorts of

things, whalebone corsets, cereal

3:44:023:44:08

packets, things that are not easy to

relocate -- to locate. So the

3:44:083:44:14

minister said there would be a

£250,000 disturbance payment. That

3:44:143:44:19

is a strange word for someone who is

forcibly moved elsewhere. But these

3:44:193:44:26

have not been forthcoming. HS2 are

very clever. They can operate within

3:44:263:44:30

the letter of the law, so these are

assurances, not legally binding

3:44:303:44:34

guarantees. A bunch of people have

written to me. This is 300

3:44:343:44:41

employees, their families, facing

Christmas with an uncertain future.

3:44:413:44:47

Some of them have two premises,

paying for two lots of in and leases

3:44:473:44:53

and staff, and there was one that

was on BBC London recently where

3:44:533:44:57

workers have down tools and gone

because they are not being paid

3:44:573:45:03

because the advance payment from HS2

has not been forthcoming. If we say

3:45:033:45:09

the ghost of Christmas past was the

rail minister who came and gave

3:45:093:45:12

these promises in good faith, I

believe, there is something that has

3:45:123:45:17

gone wrong. HS2 seems to be

haemorrhaging Chief Executive

3:45:173:45:23

officers. It is overtime and over

budget and I know honourable friends

3:45:233:45:27

of mine from this side, further into

London, they opposed to this. I did

3:45:273:45:39

not. As I say, I did not. But I am

losing patience with HS2, and also

3:45:393:45:50

what they do to residents. I have

three roads, Shaftesbury Gardens,

3:45:503:45:57

Midland Terrace, Wells house Road,

facing ten years of Works, 24-7. A

3:45:573:46:02

child born now would go to its tenth

birthday living on a building site.

3:46:023:46:07

The only assurance they have been

given is secondary glazing for one

3:46:073:46:11

side of one of these roads. That is

not good enough. When I raised this

3:46:113:46:16

with the Secretary of State for

Transport he said, my door is open.

3:46:163:46:21

I have written letters, written

questions on this and it feels like

3:46:213:46:24

banging my head on a brick wall.

When we have that chink of light

3:46:243:46:28

when I raised it with the rail

minister, it worked, to raise it in

3:46:283:46:32

this House, so I am trying again. It

feels they are negotiating a web of

3:46:323:46:37

bureaucracy. In order to get these

payments, £250,000 for a big

3:46:373:46:45

business with a turnover in the

millions is a drop in the ocean. The

3:46:453:46:49

relocation costs will be much more.

And they feel the amount of hoops

3:46:493:46:54

they have had to jump through is

just not supportable at this time.

3:46:543:47:00

Old oak is identified by the Mayor

of London as a super development

3:47:003:47:08

opportunity area with 26,000 new

dwellings, two tube stations,

3:47:083:47:12

Crossrail and HS2. There is a lot of

promise. And all of the marketing

3:47:123:47:19

information says it will be an

incubator for new businesses, but

3:47:193:47:23

these are not businesses -- these

are businesses that have been built

3:47:233:47:27

over years, family businesses,

facing a bleak Christmas.

3:47:273:47:35

Peter Bone say they will give

sufficient liquidity to make a

3:47:353:47:38

satisfactory arrangements for

relocation. -- HS2 say. I have been

3:47:383:47:45

trying to defend this but both my

residents and businesses have had

3:47:453:47:49

enough of HS2. It is very

disappointing it has come at this

3:47:493:47:57

time of year and if assurances are

only assurances, they are not

3:47:573:48:00

legally enforceable, they are not

worth the paper they are written on

3:48:003:48:03

frankly. Christmas past, present and

future, as for the future, I hope

3:48:033:48:14

the New Year we have better news for

these businesses and residents.

3:48:143:48:21

Before the house adjourned for the

Christmas recess there are a number

3:48:213:48:25

of points to raise. Constituent

former model, Cressy suffers from

3:48:253:48:32

endometriosis, a condition diagnosed

in January 2016 and she is doing

3:48:323:48:37

everything she can to launch a

campaign to make 14-18 -year-old

3:48:373:48:42

girl is aware of this disease and I

will do everything I can to help her

3:48:423:48:47

raise awareness. It is a matter we

have debated time after time in this

3:48:473:48:54

house and I am still getting many

letters from constituents and they

3:48:543:48:58

claimed they were not made aware of

these changes. I know it will be

3:48:583:49:01

difficult for the government but I

think we are going to have to look

3:49:013:49:05

at this situation again. In November

I met with the Institute of

3:49:053:49:09

fundraising. We have many wonderful

charities, but they bought to my

3:49:093:49:14

attention the potential difficulties

of general data protection

3:49:143:49:20

regulation will have. It is a good

law but it poses a number of

3:49:203:49:24

difficulties for charities. My own

party in the New Year will be

3:49:243:49:29

launching diversity to win and I'm

honoured to be a patron together

3:49:293:49:32

with Baroness Jenkin, our right

honourable friend the member for

3:49:323:49:37

hammerheads and the pro-ministered

to make a party even more diverse.

3:49:373:49:42

In October I was privileged to be

present at the Queens award for

3:49:423:49:46

voluntary services to two local

charities to help people with mental

3:49:463:49:50

health issues and other very

difficult situations. I pay tribute

3:49:503:49:56

to crossing boundaries and grown

together. The voluntary sector

3:49:563:49:59

thrives in all of our constituencies

but particularly in Southend. Our

3:49:593:50:07

association of voluntary services is

delivering a nationally dash mount

3:50:073:50:11

grub national lottery funded project

which is

3:50:113:50:13

. -- delivering a national lottery

funded project. We had our tea party

3:50:183:50:25

made was a privilege to welcome

these wonderful ladies and gentlemen

3:50:253:50:30

celebrating being 100 and more

years. The high enterprise Centre is

3:50:303:50:33

a wonderful project in the centre of

the constituency which offers

3:50:333:50:39

state-of-the-art business

opportunities for people. Phone

3:50:393:50:44

scams, I raised this recently, I'm

sick of getting calls from people

3:50:443:50:47

think I have been involved in an

accident. It has to be dealt with by

3:50:473:50:51

the government. I was successful in

two dozen in getting onto the

3:50:513:50:59

statute book the fuel poverty act.

-- 2000. This has to be looked at

3:50:593:51:04

again and I will be introducing a

new bill next year and that will

3:51:043:51:10

bring fuel poor homes up to a B C

band C by 2030 and for all homes to

3:51:103:51:17

meet the same standard by 2035. I

can see present the honourable

3:51:173:51:25

member from the city of Hull and I

congratulate them on being the city

3:51:253:51:30

of culture this year but

Southend-on-Sea was the alternative

3:51:303:51:32

city of culture this year and it has

been a triumphant year for the town

3:51:323:51:38

that I'm honoured to represent. Our

wonderful charity the music man

3:51:383:51:45

project performed at the London

Palladium and in 2019 they will be

3:51:453:51:49

performing at the Royal Albert Hall.

We had a wonderful collection of

3:51:493:51:54

ceramic poppies organised by the

British Legion who were celebrating

3:51:543:52:01

their 80th anniversary and that was

displayed all along the cliffs of

3:52:013:52:04

Southend. It has been a wonderful

year and the best Christmas present

3:52:043:52:10

Southend could have it if we are

declared a city. I am in discussions

3:52:103:52:17

with our honourable friend the

Minister for the constitution so he

3:52:173:52:23

can organise a contest is that there

has to be one for city status next

3:52:233:52:27

year and I think we could have it

around the occasion of the royal

3:52:273:52:30

wedding. I'm very close with the

organisation who want people in Iran

3:52:303:52:38

to enjoy democracy which is not the

case at the moment and I have

3:52:383:52:42

lobbied the UN and the Nobel Peace

Prize committee ad also addressed a

3:52:423:52:45

conference on the issue in this

colour mode. The Southend citizens

3:52:453:52:50

advice bureau has bought my

attention further issues regarding

3:52:503:52:54

Universal Credit. These include the

Gorgie in submitting online

3:52:543:52:59

applications, inaccurate calculation

and delays in both the cleaning

3:52:593:53:03

process and payments. I do think it

has to be explained why petrol

3:53:033:53:07

prices are going up as quickly as

they are at the moment, something is

3:53:073:53:12

wrong there. We had a debate on

stroke and mechanical from back to

3:53:123:53:20

me is something I hope will be

rolled out through out the United

3:53:203:53:24

Kingdom. Constituent told me there

is not enough provision in schools

3:53:243:53:29

to help children who have diabetes.

The University of Essex which has a

3:53:293:53:36

campus in Southend received its

highest ever ranking in the Times

3:53:363:53:42

University guide and rescue Anglia

University has a wonderful medical

3:53:423:53:46

Centre which is being developed. I

was privileged this year to enjoy

3:53:463:53:50

Essex boys and girls club's event in

Hadley Park which was successful.

3:53:503:53:56

Project for tonight is an

award-winning service within

3:53:563:53:58

Southend for adults with learning

disabilities and I absolutely

3:53:583:54:04

support their efforts as I do the

active Asian community event which

3:54:043:54:08

was organised by Southend Alder

Peters assembly earlier this year. I

3:54:083:54:13

think this has been a difficult and

challenging year for

3:54:133:54:20

parliamentarians in all sorts of

ways. There has been much sadness

3:54:203:54:23

really. I just hope that everyone

will focus on something good and

3:54:233:54:30

positive which has happened in their

life and we thank all the staff of

3:54:303:54:35

this place who support us and I wish

you, Madam Deputy Speaker, Mr

3:54:353:54:40

Speaker and the other deputies are

very happy Christmas, a wonderful

3:54:403:54:43

and joyous New Year.

3:54:433:54:46

As alluded to by my honourable

friend the member for Beckenham, I

3:54:503:54:56

often use this particular debate to

talk about women's health matters in

3:54:563:54:59

a way that can make some grown men

wince but I have to say that he and

3:54:593:55:06

other honourable members on both

sides of the house have been very

3:55:063:55:10

generous with that support about the

hysteroscopy campaign and I'm happy

3:55:103:55:14

to report that following a meeting

with the minister this week, a very

3:55:143:55:19

good meeting, I'm hopeful that some

progress can be made so I thank him

3:55:193:55:24

and others for the support they have

given.

Is the progress the

3:55:243:55:30

honourable lady refers to pain free

for ladies that have to undergo this

3:55:303:55:35

treatment?

The woman health minister

that I met with has read the

3:55:353:55:43

testimonies of the women that I

presented and she was horrified by

3:55:433:55:48

them, as this house has been when I

have read them out before. She and I

3:55:483:55:53

are very clear that it is about

choice and informed choice and about

3:55:533:55:58

making sure that women get what they

need rather than what is cheapest.

3:55:583:56:03

We are both on the same page with

that although I do not want to put

3:56:033:56:07

words in her mouth but is was a very

happy meeting. Today I only have

3:56:073:56:13

three issues that I want to bring

before the house and not four. You

3:56:133:56:21

pick it a great execution regularly

sending more people from

3:56:213:56:27

disadvantaged backgrounds to

university than any other sixth form

3:56:273:56:32

in England including Russell group

universities and Oxbridge. New is a

3:56:323:56:37

massively deprived area. Research

tells us that 13 out of 20 children

3:56:373:56:44

in Newham lived in poverty. It is

currently the second worst of all

3:56:443:56:49

local authorities in England for

social mobility. The fact that we

3:56:493:56:53

get young people doing well is a

testament to them and their teachers

3:56:533:57:01

and parents. But U Vic has had its

budget cut by £770 per student

3:57:013:57:13

including £200 per student from the

deprivation allocation. How on earth

3:57:133:57:19

can that be justified? I would be

grateful if the Minister on the

3:57:193:57:26

front bench could liaise with the

Department for Education on my

3:57:263:57:30

behalf to secure me and NewVic a

meeting about this so we can help

3:57:303:57:34

them continue to be a much-needed

engine of social mobility in mine

3:57:343:57:40

and my honourable friend's

communities. I got a nod! My second

3:57:403:57:48

issue concerns the mental health

condition called depersonalisation

3:57:483:57:53

disorder. At least one of my

constituents suffers from this and

3:57:533:57:57

she has asked me to share her story

with the house. Since she was 18 she

3:57:573:58:02

has lived for years in a continuous

state of detachment. The world and

3:58:023:58:07

her own life do not feel real pulls

up she lives in a dream, performing

3:58:073:58:13

actions on autopilot. Sometimes she

does not even recognise herself in

3:58:133:58:18

the mirror. It is terrifying. The

disorder is under researched, very

3:58:183:58:25

poorly understood and can take eight

to 12 years to get the right

3:58:253:58:30

diagnosis. Consequences of a missed

diagnosis can be dreadful because

3:58:303:58:36

anti-psychotic, and the anxiety or

antidepressant medications do not

3:58:363:58:39

help and they can make the condition

markedly worse. One sufferer, Sarah,

3:58:393:58:49

explained, "Relationships lose their

essential quality, you know you love

3:58:493:58:53

your family but you know it

academically rather than feeling it

3:58:533:58:56

in the normal way." I genuinely

would find it difficult to live if I

3:58:563:59:02

was living with that particular

disorder. With swift diagnosis and

3:59:023:59:07

specialist treatment, patients can

have a real hope of remission but

3:59:073:59:12

existing NHS provision is woefully

inadequate. There is only one

3:59:123:59:16

specialist unit based at the

Maudsley Hospital and many patients

3:59:163:59:21

wait years for funding to attend and

sometimes they get refused funding

3:59:213:59:27

and the service is only for adults,

even though the condition typically

3:59:273:59:34

begins in a person's early teens. We

really do need to look at that.

3:59:343:59:39

Again, I'm talking to the Minister

on the front bench and I'm asking

3:59:393:59:44

for a meeting with the Department of

Health to discuss it further and I

3:59:443:59:47

would be grateful if he would help

that request along its way. Finally,

3:59:473:59:53

Madam Deputy Speaker, fixed odds

betting machines. Newham, as we have

3:59:534:00:00

established today without any

contradiction, is a borough of high

4:00:004:00:03

deprivation. It has one of the

highest numbers of betting shops of

4:00:034:00:08

any borough with 81 in operation, 12

on one street alone. Newham council

4:00:084:00:18

estimates that £20 million of

residence money was lost to fixed

4:00:184:00:24

odds betting machines in just one

year.

4:00:244:00:31

I have called, as has my honourable

friend, for a reduction in the

4:00:314:00:36

maximum stake to £2, and I have

welcomed the government's

4:00:364:00:40

consultation on this issue, which

rightly suggests they £2 limit will

4:00:404:00:44

help stop problem gambling. A £2

limit would be great, if a belated

4:00:444:00:52

Christmas present to the children of

new. Finally, I would like to thank

4:00:524:00:58

the staff of the House for their

unfailing kindness, professionalism

4:00:584:01:02

and their service to all of us. I

won't be the only person in the

4:01:024:01:07

chamber today thinking of our Deputy

Speaker and sending him our love and

4:01:074:01:11

prayers. Also thinking of Jo Cox's

family, Brendan Cox and the

4:01:114:01:19

children, and the family of PC Keith

Palmer, as they face their first

4:01:194:01:23

Christmas without him, and we all

know that will be massively hard.

4:01:234:01:28

Finally, I wish to wish all of us

the happiest of Christmases and the

4:01:284:01:32

very best of New Year 's.

Following

what the honourable lady has just

4:01:324:01:39

said, the chairman of ways and means

is very grateful for all the

4:01:394:01:44

messages that he has received.

Hundreds of members have sent very

4:01:444:01:52

kind messages and he has found that

a rate support at this sad and

4:01:524:01:57

tragic time for him, and I will pass

on to him, once again, the good

4:01:574:02:02

wishes of the whole House. Thank

you.

I would like to associate

4:02:024:02:09

myself with the comments you have

made and those made by the

4:02:094:02:13

honourable member for West Ham. Mr

Speaker, what a fantastic

4:02:134:02:21

opportunity and innovation these

debates are, seven minutes to talk

4:02:214:02:23

about anything we would like. I am

surprised the benches are not

4:02:234:02:28

overflowing with colleagues. More

time for the rest of us. I would

4:02:284:02:32

like to say a few things by way of

thank you and then express a concern

4:02:324:02:39

and end on a positive point.

Can I

thank him for his kind words but can

4:02:394:02:42

I also say that I think it is sad

not many people are here today. I

4:02:424:02:46

think it is because the information

we had was that it would be

4:02:464:02:50

massively oversubscribed. I would

like to go back to the tradition

4:02:504:02:53

where we had a proper adjournment

debate, where we could properly

4:02:534:02:58

explore the issues that are

important to our constituents,

4:02:584:03:00

without having to contain it within

a seven minute speech.

I thank the

4:03:004:03:09

honourable lady for those comments,

and she makes a valid point that I

4:03:094:03:12

am sure others are listening to.

I

thank my honourable friend for

4:03:124:03:20

giving way and I take the

representation made by my honourable

4:03:204:03:24

friend from across the other side of

the chamber. The backbench business

4:03:244:03:29

committee does allocate the time. It

was looked to be three hours for

4:03:294:03:33

this debate and because of

statements, the time was compressed.

4:03:334:03:39

However, I will take it as a

representation from the House when

4:03:394:03:43

the backbench business committee

look at the next recess adjournment

4:03:434:03:46

debate, to look for a full day's

adjournment debate.

Happy to

4:03:464:03:53

facilitate that discussion! Mr

Speaker, I would like to say thank

4:03:534:03:58

you to you and your attire team and

everybody who looks after us in this

4:03:584:04:03

place, from the security, the

cleaners, everybody in hospitality,

4:04:034:04:08

everybody does a very good job and

they do not always get the praise

4:04:084:04:12

they deserve, so thank you to them.

Thank you to my family, who go

4:04:124:04:17

through quite an ordeal living with

me, and particularly the lifestyle

4:04:174:04:20

we lead. And thank you to my

constituents for re-electing me. I

4:04:204:04:26

am sure this is the same on the half

of all members of this place, we are

4:04:264:04:31

very grateful for those who voted

for us but we are the

4:04:314:04:35

representatives also of those who

did not vote for us. Across both

4:04:354:04:40

sides of the House, we take that

seriously and do our best to

4:04:404:04:44

represent the breadth of opinion,

which is sometimes overlooked. I

4:04:444:04:48

would like to say thank you to three

people who have inspired me this

4:04:484:04:51

year and I'm proud to have got know

them. Tracy Heming runs the freedom

4:04:514:04:56

day care centre and disco in my home

village. What an inspiration she is.

4:04:564:05:02

She had an idea to set up an event

for disabled children and those with

4:05:024:05:08

mental health challenges, and she

has done the most fantastic job. I

4:05:084:05:12

have visited her several times and

she deserves credit. Diane Bennett

4:05:124:05:18

runs caring hands in the Vale, and

runs a local food bank, another

4:05:184:05:23

inspirational lady I have got to

know very well. And up in Droitwich,

4:05:234:05:30

Patrick Davis, who is doing a great

job with reinvigorating the salt

4:05:304:05:35

production and the salt association

with Droitwich. I am pleased they

4:05:354:05:39

are doing a fantastic job. I am

honoured to live in an area where

4:05:394:05:46

community engagement and involvement

is at the heart of what people do.

4:05:464:05:49

They are busy with jobs and families

but the volunteering is incredible.

4:05:494:05:53

I have never known anywhere with

that degree of dedication, so it is

4:05:534:05:59

an honour to be associated with so

many of them. The point I would like

4:05:594:06:05

to raise is something we are not

seeing in the chamber today. That is

4:06:054:06:11

intolerance in modern British

politics. I am increasingly

4:06:114:06:15

concerned about the intolerance, the

abuse and intimidation happening in

4:06:154:06:18

British politics. To be honest, at

the extreme ends of both the far

4:06:184:06:24

right and the far left. It is not

representative or reflective of the

4:06:244:06:29

day-to-day activity in this place,

where we generally get along. We

4:06:294:06:34

have banter, we disagree, sometimes

vehemently, but we also know that

4:06:344:06:38

whilst we may have very strongly

held opinions that does not

4:06:384:06:42

necessarily mean we are right. That

self-awareness of realising that

4:06:424:06:47

sometimes we can be persuaded and

sometimes the opposition can be

4:06:474:06:50

right, and it is valid and fair to

look at the same data and have

4:06:504:06:54

different views and opinions as to

policies coming out of that is very

4:06:544:06:57

useful. We have those debates and

discussions all the time.

4:06:574:07:03

Unfortunately, the public do not

always see that, and particularly

4:07:034:07:07

online we are now seeing an era of

really disheartening abuse, vitriol

4:07:074:07:11

and hatred that does not exist in

this place. But it is the

4:07:114:07:17

responsibility of us to make sure we

say that is not acceptable in

4:07:174:07:20

British politics. If it is

associated with any of us, in any

4:07:204:07:26

way, shape or form, whether it is

someone in your name, using a hash

4:07:264:07:31

-- your hashtag or Twitter account

to make vile comments, we must stand

4:07:314:07:35

up and say, not in mine aim, I

distance myself from those, do not

4:07:354:07:40

want to be associated with those

comments, and be active. Yes, social

4:07:404:07:45

media companies have a lot to answer

for and we do, as members of

4:07:454:07:49

Parliament and those people making

the vile comments in the first

4:07:494:07:53

place, but we have to stand up and

be counted.

I thank the honourable

4:07:534:07:59

member for giving way. What I would

say is actually don't lose hope on

4:07:594:08:04

this one. He is quite right. I

endorse that, and what we have seen

4:08:044:08:09

in recent days and weeks has been

extremely unpleasant. However, north

4:08:094:08:14

of the border we knew of a situation

three years ago when it was very bad

4:08:144:08:18

on both sides of the debate about

the independence referendum for

4:08:184:08:22

Scotland. Since then, things have

improved. We have worked at it, and

4:08:224:08:28

you can make progress.

And I do have

hope, but we have a responsibility

4:08:284:08:33

to try and lead. It is unfortunate.

We all get this, but when people

4:08:334:08:39

insinuated about your motivations,

we disagree on policy, but when they

4:08:394:08:45

insinuate about your motivations,

and sometimes it is disheartening

4:08:454:08:47

and rude to hear people insinuated

that because I am a Tory I wake up

4:08:474:08:52

in the morning wanting to hurt

poorer disabled people. That is so

4:08:524:08:57

far from the reality it is offensive

and wrong. If anyone really believes

4:08:574:09:02

that in a public debate sphere, I

feel sorry for them. What kind of

4:09:024:09:07

mentality must you have that you

believe in the absolute worst of

4:09:074:09:11

people you are dealing with on a

day-to-day basis in your workplace?

4:09:114:09:16

So I think we need to call that out.

But the main worry is not this place

4:09:164:09:21

but what is happening online. We

need to focus on that and work much

4:09:214:09:27

closer together. There is

cross-party consensus on that. More

4:09:274:09:32

positively, and I said I would end

on some more positive features, I am

4:09:324:09:38

pleased and proud that I am a member

of Parliament for the Conservative

4:09:384:09:42

Party. Whilst we do not get

everything right, we do listen and

4:09:424:09:47

we do make changes when necessary. I

am proud that, for example, we have

4:09:474:09:55

recognised there were mistakes made

in universal credit. We looked at

4:09:554:09:58

the data, listened to people,

listened to constituents and other

4:09:584:10:02

members in the chamber and we

amended policy. That was right and I

4:10:024:10:06

am glad we did that. But we have got

a lotta right. I am glad that we are

4:10:064:10:11

going into the Christmas period

where we have got the highest

4:10:114:10:15

spending ever on the NHS, more

operations than ever, highest

4:10:154:10:19

spending on pensions and pensioners

than ever before, more children in

4:10:194:10:24

good and outstanding schools than

ever in this nation's history, and

4:10:244:10:29

more people than ever before with a

paycheque going home every week with

4:10:294:10:33

the decency and honour of earning

money, and unemployment at a record

4:10:334:10:37

low for 45 years. It has been a

difficult, challenging year, but it

4:10:374:10:42

is not all bad. Let's look at some

of the positive things. I will play

4:10:424:10:46

my part of the two new cross-party

co-operation on all the things we

4:10:464:10:51

care about an hour constituents care

about, and I look forward to doing

4:10:514:10:56

that. In the meantime, happy

Christmas and happy new year to

4:10:564:10:59

everybody.

Merry Christmas to you

and to all of the Deputy speakers

4:10:594:11:10

and your panel of chairs, and all

the staff of this house. Can I give

4:11:104:11:18

special Best wishes to my friend the

chairman of ways and Means, who I

4:11:184:11:23

know how hard it is for him at this

time? I want to concentrate on one

4:11:234:11:30

area, and in doing so I want to wish

a Merry Christmas to all British

4:11:304:11:37

people in this country, and the 5

million British people living in

4:11:374:11:41

other countries, including 1.2

million in the European Union. And I

4:11:414:11:47

do so because in the last few years,

we have not even the views and the

4:11:474:11:54

representative nurse of those people

the weight they deserve. In 2014,

4:11:544:12:04

the then chairman of the

Conservative Party, in September,

4:12:044:12:12

pledged to end the 15- year rule for

British people living overseas being

4:12:124:12:19

eligible to vote in our elections.

That commitment was made very

4:12:194:12:25

firmly. He said, being a British

citizen is for life. It gives you

4:12:254:12:32

the lifelong right to be protected

by our military and Foreign Office,

4:12:324:12:37

and to travel on a British passport.

We believe it should also give you

4:12:374:12:42

the lifelong right to a vote.

The manifesto on which the

4:12:424:12:51

Conservative Party and David Cameron

won the election in 2015 included

4:12:514:12:54

that pledge. Subsequently, the

government produced a consultative

4:12:544:13:09

document and a commitment to bring

forward a votes for life Bill was

4:13:094:13:15

announced in the Queen 's speech on

the 27th of May, 2015. That bill did

4:13:154:13:24

not materialise subsequently. But in

October 2016, a policy statement was

4:13:244:13:33

published. Again, it set out how

this removal of the 15- year rule

4:13:334:13:40

would come about. Those people who

were British citizens living in

4:13:404:13:49

Spain, Italy, France, Germany,

Portugal, Estonia, Lithuania,

4:13:494:13:53

wherever else in the European Union,

who had been there longer than 15

4:13:534:13:59

years, were not eligible to vote in

the referendum. And as a result,

4:13:594:14:06

although their rights had been more

affected than any other British

4:14:064:14:14

citizens by the decision taken in

2016, they had no say on it if they

4:14:144:14:21

had lived in those countries more

than 15 years. And in the

4:14:214:14:26

negotiations the government is

coming forward with in the European

4:14:264:14:30

Union at this moment, it is notable

that although we now seem to have

4:14:304:14:37

rights for EU citizens in this

country to be protected, there will

4:14:374:14:43

be inferior rights for British

citizens living in other EU

4:14:434:14:47

countries, because those rights will

only exist in the countries where

4:14:474:14:51

they are currently resident. They

will not be transferable, because

4:14:514:14:55

they will move the right to freedom

of movement within other EU

4:14:554:14:58

countries. And that is an important

point. Whereas EU citizens in the UK

4:14:584:15:04

can move back and go to any other EU

country, British citizens in the

4:15:044:15:10

European Union, as things stand,

will only be able to reside in that

4:15:104:15:14

particular country and not have the

right to free movement elsewhere in

4:15:144:15:17

the EU. That needs to be looked at.

I wish to declare that I am the

4:15:174:15:25

honorary President of Labour

international, at least until

4:15:254:15:31

Momentum get rid of me. I am not

joking. It has been suggested.

4:15:314:15:40

I am speaking because I am aware of

the concerns of so many people not

4:15:404:15:45

just in the Labour Party but also

the Conservatives internationally

4:15:454:15:49

and elsewhere and clearly there was

an excuse that we had a general

4:15:494:15:54

election this year. And therefore

the bill that might have come

4:15:544:16:00

through from the 2015 election has

not been produced. I have been

4:16:004:16:04

pursuing the matter with some

questions and I have put down some

4:16:044:16:12

questions in November asking the

Minister for the Cabinet Office what

4:16:124:16:15

plans the government has to extend

voting rights of UK citizens who are

4:16:154:16:20

resident overseas in UK elections

and referendums. And to ask if he

4:16:204:16:25

will bring forward legislative

proposals to guarantee votes for

4:16:254:16:29

life in UK elections and referendums

for all UK citizens living abroad.

4:16:294:16:34

The answers I got was to refer me to

an answer given to the honourable

4:16:344:16:38

member for Halifax on the 7th of

September. And the answer the

4:16:384:16:43

honourable member for Halifax got

from a question asked on the 4th of

4:16:434:16:53

September was, as outlined in our

manifesto the government is

4:16:534:16:57

committed to legislating to scrap

the 15 year rule and will do so in

4:16:574:17:02

time for the next scheduled

parliamentary general election in

4:17:024:17:05

2022. That is not good enough. They

were working on the schedule for

4:17:054:17:14

2020 and an early general election

meant that people could not have a

4:17:144:17:17

vote in that election. There is

absolutely no guarantee in the

4:17:174:17:21

current political climate that the

next general election will be in

4:17:214:17:28

2022. It could be before then and so

I urge ministers, and this is not a

4:17:284:17:34

partisan point, there will be people

who disagree with extending the

4:17:344:17:38

democratic right to all British

people living overseas, but in the

4:17:384:17:46

modern age, with digital systems of

voting or checking or registration,

4:17:464:17:52

we need to actually modernise and

extend the democracy to all those

4:17:524:17:57

British people, particularly given

that we are bringing about

4:17:574:18:00

significant change not just in this

country but all over the world.

4:18:004:18:06

Thank you very much.

It is an honour

to follow the member from Ilford

4:18:064:18:16

South and I will come onto the point

that he was making a bit later in my

4:18:164:18:22

remarks. I would also like to offer

and extend to all those working on

4:18:224:18:28

our behalf over Christmas and the

New Year weather in the private

4:18:284:18:31

sector or in public services my

grateful thanks because they give up

4:18:314:18:37

their family time on our behalf. In

my constituency of stuff that I

4:18:374:18:41

particularly like to think of the

workers at General Electric who are

4:18:414:18:46

facing an uncertain future with the

consultation going on over the loss

4:18:464:18:51

of 500 jobs and assure them of my

commitment to see that if there are

4:18:514:18:55

other opportunities locally or

regionally, they should be made

4:18:554:18:59

aware of them and all support

possible given. I would like to

4:18:594:19:04

tackle three subjects. The first is

health and social care. I have

4:19:044:19:11

spoken often on this subject in the

past, particularly around Stafford

4:19:114:19:15

Hospital and may I first say how

great it is to be able to say that

4:19:154:19:20

the care at County Hospital, the

former Stafford Hospital, has

4:19:204:19:25

improved tremendously in the past

few years and paid tribute to the

4:19:254:19:28

workers there who have gone through

a very difficult time both at the

4:19:284:19:34

time of the Francis public inquiry

and the trust special

4:19:344:19:40

administration, the only trust

special administration under the

4:19:404:19:43

social care act 2012.

I rise quickly

to pay great credit to my honourable

4:19:434:19:51

friend. He has worked tirelessly to

sort out this hospital and he has

4:19:514:19:57

been a great advocate of getting it

fixed.

I'm most grateful and I think

4:19:574:20:04

he perhaps exaggerates my own part.

It has been the workforce who have

4:20:044:20:08

done it but I take his thanks on the

half of all those in County Hospital

4:20:084:20:13

and in Stafford who have fought for

it. I want to talk about the Green

4:20:134:20:17

paper that is coming up on social

care and I will extend my remarks to

4:20:174:20:22

health and social because it is a

really important opportunity for us

4:20:224:20:29

to change things for health and

social care for the better and for

4:20:294:20:33

the long-term. But it needs

cross-party working. The area of

4:20:334:20:38

social care and health has been

blighted too often by party

4:20:384:20:43

infighting and between parties. It

also need an integrated approach. I

4:20:434:20:50

would start off by saying that

actually if you look at people's

4:20:504:20:54

opinion in Britain that access to

good health care, we'd score highly

4:20:544:20:59

internationally. In a survey done

not long ago, 35% of people in the

4:20:594:21:05

US said they did not have good

access to good quality health care.

4:21:054:21:09

In France it was 18%, Germany it was

15% and in the UK it was only 4% and

4:21:094:21:16

that is the glory of our National

Health Service, that it gives

4:21:164:21:20

people, by and large, access to

high-quality health care whatever

4:21:204:21:22

their income and wherever they live

in the UK. But there is also a

4:21:224:21:29

general acceptance that more money

is required. I will not go into the

4:21:294:21:34

detailed figures as there is not the

time but something between one and

4:21:344:21:39

2% of GDP more needs to be spent on

health and social get so the

4:21:394:21:42

question is, and it is a question

for the Green paper next year and

4:21:424:21:46

our contributions to it, how is that

money to be raised? I have always

4:21:464:21:51

said that I believe we need a ring

fenced health and social get levy on

4:21:514:21:58

top of the budgeted expenditure that

we have at the moment for health and

4:21:584:22:04

social, it needs to be a broad-based

levy and income -based. So it is

4:22:044:22:10

fair across the country and across

the population. And I believe that

4:22:104:22:14

will help us, it will not be

everything we need to do, but it

4:22:144:22:19

will ensure that the

10-20,000,000,000 additional

4:22:194:22:26

resources we need to put into the

health and social care system on top

4:22:264:22:29

of already what we spend will be

available and I think it will be

4:22:294:22:34

accepted by the general population.

They note that if the money is ring

4:22:344:22:39

fenced and it is going into health

and social that it will be spent on

4:22:394:22:43

things that they really care about

and need. And let's not forget the

4:22:434:22:47

NHS is one of the biggest sources of

cohesion in the country, something

4:22:474:22:52

we all rely on. The second area I

want to touch on briefly is the

4:22:524:22:57

European Union negotiations which

are incredibly important to all of

4:22:574:23:02

us. The Prime Minister has said she

wants the best possible deal and I

4:23:024:23:07

absolutely support her in this. A

unique deal, a long-term deal, but

4:23:074:23:12

the best possible for our jobs, tax

revenues and also to bring back

4:23:124:23:17

control of various areas into this

country. It must include goods and

4:23:174:23:23

services, not just goods. It must be

frictionless, it must fully respect

4:23:234:23:28

the Belfast agreement, respect the

people of Gibraltar, it must cover

4:23:284:23:33

security, aviation, data and many

other areas including agreements

4:23:334:23:38

with other countries of which there

are dozens. There has been

4:23:384:23:43

discussion about whether we should

be closer to Norway, Canada, plus,

4:23:434:23:49

plus, plus. I would simply make the

observation that geographically, and

4:23:494:23:54

I would say in spirit, we are

possibly closer to Norway than

4:23:544:23:58

Canada when it comes to this type of

agreement and I would urge the

4:23:584:24:02

government to look at that very

closely. I would also suggest we

4:24:024:24:09

look at the European free trade

Association. It is not perfect and

4:24:094:24:12

it might not be something for the

near-term but I believe in the

4:24:124:24:16

medium term we cannot stand just on

our own. We need to work together

4:24:164:24:19

with other like-minded nations of

which Iceland, Norway, Switzerland,

4:24:194:24:26

Lichtenstein and maybe others in the

future are some. Because when it

4:24:264:24:30

comes to negotiating agreements and

working together on trade it is

4:24:304:24:35

better to be in a number of

countries rather than on our own.

4:24:354:24:38

The final point I would make, again

in this place, is that we need to

4:24:384:24:44

consider the idea of associate

European citizenship on a voluntary

4:24:444:24:49

basis for all those citizens of the

UK who want to retain very strong

4:24:494:24:52

and close allegiance is to our

friends and neighbours in the EU. It

4:24:524:24:56

has been raised as a possibility by

Guy Verhofstadt in the European

4:24:564:25:02

Parliament and others so let's take

this into consideration in the

4:25:024:25:09

negotiations. Mr Speaker, finally

but in some ways most important of

4:25:094:25:13

all, I want to touch on humanitarian

work. We know that across the world

4:25:134:25:17

there are more people who are

refugees at the moment than at any

4:25:174:25:21

time since possibly the end of the

Second World War, whether it is

4:25:214:25:25

Syria, Yemen, South Sudan,

Democratic Republic of Congo and not

4:25:254:25:29

Burundi, Burma, there are possibly

up to 50 million and that does not

4:25:294:25:36

count the people suffering within

their own countries. I welcome the

4:25:364:25:39

recent news about Yemen and the fact

that the port there has been opened

4:25:394:25:46

up for 30 days for humanitarian and

relief supplies and I'd paid tribute

4:25:464:25:50

to the government for their work on

that but we must keep an eagle eyed

4:25:504:25:54

over this recess on that. I would

also point out the Democratic

4:25:544:26:00

Republic of Congo. 1.7 million

people there have had to flee their

4:26:004:26:05

homes this year, more than any other

country in the world and yet it

4:26:054:26:09

hardly receives a mention in the

news sadly and even in this place. 4

4:26:094:26:14

million people have been displaced,

7 million are struggling to feed

4:26:144:26:18

themselves. I think it is absolutely

vital that in 2018 the UK maintains

4:26:184:26:23

the work he's doing all over the

world on humanitarian affairs and

4:26:234:26:28

which we lead in some instances --

the work it's doing. And on that I

4:26:284:26:33

wish you a very happy Christmas.

4:26:334:26:35

I'm going to start by sounding a bit

bar humbug I'm afraid I will save

4:26:364:26:43

Mike felicitations for the end but

it is an important subject and one I

4:26:434:26:46

wish to raise regarding the

delegated Legislation committee I

4:26:464:26:51

was in on Tuesday that was

considering the new date for

4:26:514:26:55

donations to the Northern Ireland

parties and asking for it to be

4:26:554:27:00

treated in the same way as donations

to other parties. That has been a

4:27:004:27:04

very long issue with the first

suggested date being a decade ago

4:27:044:27:10

and successive ministers I'm afraid

taking the issue down the road over

4:27:104:27:15

the years. The revelations about the

large donation to the DUP for Brexit

4:27:154:27:20

campaigning made from Scotland

through Northern Ireland, presumably

4:27:204:27:23

in order to avoid the normal

reporting restrictions, forced the

4:27:234:27:27

hand of the current government and

the secondary legislation we were

4:27:274:27:30

considering. That's donation was

£435,000 on the constitutional

4:27:304:27:39

research Council, an organisation

based in Scotland that none of us in

4:27:394:27:42

Scottish politics had heard before

although I note it also has links to

4:27:424:27:48

the parliamentary undersecretary in

the Department for exiting the

4:27:484:27:50

European Union. I believe he

received some thousands of pounds on

4:27:504:27:54

behalf of the European research

group, the Conservatives extreme

4:27:544:27:59

Brexit wing. On Tuesday the Minister

told the committee she had consulted

4:27:594:28:06

the Electoral Commission in Northern

Ireland as she was obliged to and

4:28:064:28:10

gave the impression that the

commission was in agreement with the

4:28:104:28:13

government on the date of

commencement. She said, I hope the

4:28:134:28:17

committee has found that summary of

the provisions helpful as honourable

4:28:174:28:21

members know the Electoral

Commission will be responsible for

4:28:214:28:24

inventing the arrangements set out

in the draft order. The government

4:28:244:28:28

have fulfilled our statutory

obligation to consult the commission

4:28:284:28:31

about the draft order, I place on

record my thanks to the commission

4:28:314:28:34

and its staff for their close

cooperation and constructive input

4:28:344:28:37

into the drafting process. My office

contacted the commission yesterday

4:28:374:28:43

and was told that the commission

remains of the opinion that the

4:28:434:28:46

start date for open reporting should

be generally the first 2014 rather

4:28:464:28:51

than the new date of July the 1st of

this year. That is important because

4:28:514:28:55

the date that the commission still

wants to be the appropriate date is

4:28:554:28:59

the date that was in legislation

passed by this Parliament. That is

4:28:594:29:04

legislation that was intended to

normalise the reporting of donations

4:29:044:29:07

and loans to Northern Irish parties

to make it difficult to channel

4:29:074:29:11

money secretly into politics. We are

all well aware of the need for

4:29:114:29:17

transparency in politics, the need

to avoid corruption and to be seen

4:29:174:29:20

to be avoiding corruption. We trust

the Electoral Commission to do its

4:29:204:29:25

job and ensure that the rules are

followed. They are the expert in

4:29:254:29:29

this field and while I'm aware

experts are not necessarily in

4:29:294:29:33

favour in some parts of this house,

we can surely agree that we can take

4:29:334:29:37

the advice of the Electoral

Commission on matters pertaining to

4:29:374:29:41

donations and loans to political

parties. It is unfortunate that the

4:29:414:29:45

minister gave the impression on

Tuesday that she had the agreement

4:29:454:29:48

of the commission when it was clear

she did not and does not and I hope

4:29:484:29:51

she will take the opportunity to

clarify the situation for the house

4:29:514:29:55

and for the record. Meanwhile since

it is clear the Electoral Commission

4:29:554:29:59

remains opposed to the new data

presented in the secondary

4:29:594:30:03

legislation and these regulations

have not yet been presented on the

4:30:034:30:05

floor of the house for approval, I

wonder if the minister might

4:30:054:30:10

reconsider her position. Deferring

the introduction of these

4:30:104:30:12

regulations and to the government

has had sufficient time to properly

4:30:124:30:17

consult on the most appropriate date

for the proper and full reporting of

4:30:174:30:20

donations and loans in Northern

Ireland to start. That reporting was

4:30:204:30:24

originally supposed to start from

2007 and a government consultation

4:30:244:30:29

in 2010 showed that more than three

quarters of respondents in Northern

4:30:294:30:33

Ireland wanted that to go ahead. I'm

afraid it was fudged, deferred and

4:30:334:30:38

put back on the shelf. Eventually

new legislation, the Northern

4:30:384:30:45

Ireland miscellaneous provisions act

2014 set a new date of January the

4:30:454:30:49

1st 2014. I believe we should see

that they'd honoured. I hope that

4:30:494:30:54

the minister in ten is seeking to

address the wrong but impression

4:30:544:30:57

given the Electoral Commission was

in agreement with the new date and

4:30:574:31:02

that she withdraws the revelations

presented and takes time to

4:31:024:31:06

undertake a proper and full

consultation on them so we get a

4:31:064:31:09

date that satisfies the intent

behind the legislation we must avoid

4:31:094:31:15

corruption and we must avoid any

danger of leaving the impression

4:31:154:31:19

that may be something to hide. I

think it is vital we have a debate

4:31:194:31:23

on this issue scheduled in the house

in the New Year.

4:31:234:31:30

On that rather sombre note, I would

like to wish everyone in the house,

4:31:304:31:35

all of the officers, yourself, the

deputy speakers, who have been so

4:31:354:31:39

helpful to all of us throughout the

year, and I would really like to say

4:31:394:31:48

Merry Christmas and happy new year.

I particularly want to send my

4:31:484:31:52

thoughts and best wishes to the

chairman of ways and Means, because

4:31:524:31:57

I am fond of the gentleman, and I

was very sad to hear of his

4:31:574:32:02

difficulties at this time, and I

wish him and his family all the

4:32:024:32:04

best.

A very experienced member of

parliament said to me recently that

4:32:044:32:14

MP behind your name does not just

mean member of Parliament, but it

4:32:144:32:20

means "Must persevere". The reason I

wanted to speak is because I am

4:32:204:32:24

going to talk to the House again

about the contaminated blood

4:32:244:32:29

scandal, and I'm going to persevere

with the fact that in my view,

4:32:294:32:34

justice will aid is justice denied.

Of course, I must say it was great

4:32:344:32:41

news in the summer on July 11, when

the government announced that they

4:32:414:32:47

would have an enquiry into what had

happened in the contaminated blood

4:32:474:32:52

scandal. The biggest treatment

disaster in the history of the NHS.

4:32:524:32:58

We know already at least 2400 people

have died, and many more as well.

4:32:584:33:04

And we also know that people today

are still living with the effects of

4:33:044:33:11

HIV and with hepatitis C and with

other viruses which they got through

4:33:114:33:17

contaminated blood products. I want

to put on record again my personal

4:33:174:33:25

thanks for the decision of the Prime

Minister to hold that public

4:33:254:33:29

enquiry. That was the 11th of July.

We are now on the 21st of December,

4:33:294:33:36

the same year. And, sadly, we do not

have that public enquiry

4:33:364:33:42

established. We don't have the name

of a chair. We don't even have draft

4:33:424:33:49

terms of reference for people to be

consulted on. And the reason we are

4:33:494:33:56

in this pickle is because,

unfortunately, with all good

4:33:564:34:01

intentions with that announcement in

July, the government held on to the

4:34:014:34:06

fact that the Department of Health

was the department that had to lead

4:34:064:34:10

on the establishment of that enquiry

for far too long. And despite

4:34:104:34:17

unanimity in the community of those

affected that the Department of

4:34:174:34:21

Health, as a party implicated in the

scandal, should not have anything to

4:34:214:34:25

do with this public enquiry, it took

until November three for the

4:34:254:34:30

government to say it would be moved

to the Cabinet Office. We welcome

4:34:304:34:34

that, and it is positive, but it

took far too long. We had to get the

4:34:344:34:39

involvement of the former Bishop of

Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, to

4:34:394:34:43

help get the message across to

government that the Department of

4:34:434:34:46

Health was not an appropriate body

to lead on this. Many people did not

4:34:464:34:51

want to get involved in the

consultation that was happening

4:34:514:34:55

because the Department of Health

were at the centre of it. On the 3rd

4:34:554:35:00

of November, we know the Cabinet

Office took control of this enquiry,

4:35:004:35:04

and we welcome that. They said there

would be an update before Christmas

4:35:044:35:10

about what would happen next and we

were hopeful we would have a chair

4:35:104:35:14

announced by today. What I find a

little galling is the fact that we

4:35:144:35:20

are on the very last day of this

term before we rise for Christmas,

4:35:204:35:25

and although we have a written

ministerial statement which was on

4:35:254:35:29

the order paper when I looked at

8:30am today, it has taken until

4:35:294:35:35

2:13pm to get that statement to

Parliament for us to see exactly

4:35:354:35:40

what the government are proposing.

The government have now said they

4:35:404:35:45

will have a judge- led enquiry, and

I understand from the people who did

4:35:454:35:50

engage with the consultation earlier

this year that was the wish of the

4:35:504:35:56

overwhelming number of people, so I

think that is positive. But in the

4:35:564:36:02

statement today there is no

indication about when we will get

4:36:024:36:04

the name of a judge. What concerns

me is, as I started by saying, we

4:36:044:36:10

have people living with HIV,

hepatitis C and other conditions

4:36:104:36:13

today. We have people today who are

dying because of what happened to

4:36:134:36:19

them, and we are now five and a half

months on from the initial, very

4:36:194:36:24

positive, announcement. But we still

can't actually see the start of this

4:36:244:36:28

public enquiry. So I would ask if

the Minister might enlighten us

4:36:284:36:33

further, in his comments at the end,

as to when we might have that name

4:36:334:36:37

announced in the New Year. I also

wanted to say that it seems to me

4:36:374:36:42

absolutely essential, in light of

what has happened with Grenfell

4:36:424:36:46

recently, where we have had a judge

appointed and had the community

4:36:464:36:50

raising concerns about not feeling

part of that enquiry, that whoever

4:36:504:36:56

leads this enquiry around

contaminated blood has to ensure

4:36:564:36:59

that the families and those affected

are at the heart of the enquiry and

4:36:594:37:05

that they feel included and able to

contribute to the enquiry as fully

4:37:054:37:08

as possible. I am raising that

because in Scotland we had the

4:37:084:37:15

Scottish enquiry, the Penrose

enquiry, led by a judge, and that

4:37:154:37:19

did not deliver for the people of

Scotland who had been affected by

4:37:194:37:22

this scandal in the way that we

wanted it to. Part of the problem

4:37:224:37:26

was the judge who was appointed. We

need to make sure, whichever judge

4:37:264:37:31

is appointed, that they have the

requisite legal and forensic skills

4:37:314:37:34

to do a good job, but also the

ability to understand what has

4:37:344:37:39

happened to people who have been so

badly damaged by the contaminated

4:37:394:37:42

blood scandal. I also wanted to say

we were really grateful for the

4:37:424:37:48

involvement of the former Bishop of

Liverpool, Bishop James Jones, in

4:37:484:37:53

interceding in the summer with the

government about the involvement of

4:37:534:37:56

the Department of Health. I think

his skill, wisdom, knowledge and

4:37:564:38:01

ability would be very well used in

some capacity in being choir read

4:38:014:38:07

that is going to hopefully start

next year. So I hope the government

4:38:074:38:11

will take that on board. I also

think the government could take

4:38:114:38:15

steps now to actually try and

alleviate some of the suffering this

4:38:154:38:19

group of people are experiencing.

First, the government have

4:38:194:38:24

introduced a new financial scheme,

not compensation, limited financial

4:38:244:38:29

support. But in Scotland, which has

its own scheme, it is more generous

4:38:294:38:33

in some regards. I would ask the

minister if he could take back to

4:38:334:38:38

his colleagues whether there could

be an agreement that we would have

4:38:384:38:41

in England a scheme that is no less

generous than in Scotland, and the

4:38:414:38:46

anomalies we have in the English

scheme could be ironed out.

4:38:464:38:50

Secondly, I think the government

could take action now to passport

4:38:504:38:53

people who have been affected by the

contaminated blood scandal through

4:38:534:38:58

the benefits system, so they don't

have to have constant assessments.

4:38:584:39:02

The third point I wanted to make was

that, as in the Irish settlement,

4:39:024:39:08

priority was given for NHS treatment

to people affected by this. Again,

4:39:084:39:13

the government could introduce that

as a positive measure.

There are

4:39:134:39:18

three remaining would be backbench

contributors. The front bench

4:39:184:39:21

wind-up speech is must begin no

later than 4:27pm, so members can do

4:39:214:39:27

the arithmetic themselves.

I commend

the perseverance of my honourable

4:39:274:39:35

friend in pursuing the contaminated

blood scandal. I want to wish you

4:39:354:39:39

and everyone a happy Christmas. The

topic I want to raise is less Merhi.

4:39:394:39:45

Job centres are evaluated on the

basis of benefit off-loaded. Lads

4:39:454:39:53

stow job centre, which was in the

constituency of my honourable

4:39:534:39:56

friend, the number of West Ham, who

is in her place, had a poor record.

4:39:564:40:01

A new manager, Tony Sutton,

appointed in May 2013, and a new

4:40:014:40:07

deputy, were determined to raise

benefit off-loaded. A very troubled

4:40:074:40:13

employee at the job centre, it can

stitch above mine, came to see me in

4:40:134:40:20

September 2013, describing awful

working conditions, unfair benefit

4:40:204:40:22

sanctions, harassing people off

benefits. I alerted the department,

4:40:224:40:27

a senior official visited the job

centre in October, I was grateful

4:40:274:40:31

for that. I understand staff were

banned from expressing concerns to

4:40:314:40:35

him. He reported that everything was

fine. I was told, for example, it

4:40:354:40:41

was common to ask people to sign on

for their benefit claim at irregular

4:40:414:40:45

dates, in the hope that they would

forget to do so one week and their

4:40:454:40:49

claim would then be closed. Advisers

were told to sanction a claimant if

4:40:494:40:55

rake or them on their mobile and

didn't answer twice. -- if they

4:40:554:41:03

called them on their mobile. In June

2014, I met a constituent, a

4:41:034:41:09

personal adviser at the job centre,

and a team leader there. They had

4:41:094:41:13

been sacked the month before. A

number of former staff there, not

4:41:134:41:20

those I have mentioned so far but

others, told me of a practice

4:41:204:41:23

introduced by the new manager. It

was designed in particular to avoid

4:41:234:41:28

people reaching 52 weeks in their

job-seeker's Allowance claim.

4:41:284:41:33

Because at that point they would

have had to be referred to the work

4:41:334:41:37

programme. There was immense

pressure on staff to stop that

4:41:374:41:42

happening and to stop referrals

taking place. The procedure, and I

4:41:424:41:45

am told it was used repeatedly from

mid-2013, was, as people approached

4:41:454:41:51

a deadline, to take them off benefit

and pay them instead the same amount

4:41:514:41:55

of cash from the flexible support

fund for a couple of weeks, on a

4:41:554:42:01

pretext, for example to pay for a

travel card to get to a nonexistent

4:42:014:42:07

job, and then to sign them back onto

job-seeker's Allowance again a short

4:42:074:42:10

time afterwards. Claimants got the

same amount of cash, and benefit off

4:42:104:42:15

Flo went up by one. However, housing

benefit was affected as well. And

4:42:154:42:20

one of those who was on the

receiving end of this, who I know,

4:42:204:42:24

complained about it. As a result,

the two employees were sacked. The

4:42:244:42:31

claimant who complained, and all the

staff I have discussed it with, are

4:42:314:42:37

clear that those two individuals,

those employees were not the guilty

4:42:374:42:40

parties. One was the adviser who

initiated the flexible support fund

4:42:404:42:48

payment, it is true. She only saw

the claimant that morning because a

4:42:484:42:52

colleague was late. It was made

clear by managers that this was what

4:42:524:42:56

she should do. The flexible support

fund payment was specified in a

4:42:564:43:00

post-it note that was already on the

claimant's file. The second employee

4:43:004:43:06

had no involvement at all but merely

authorised the use of a former for a

4:43:064:43:11

slightly different purpose than

usual. No action was taken against

4:43:114:43:16

other staff, who specified how much

should be paid, who authorised the

4:43:164:43:20

claim, nor against the managers. The

two employees were, in my view,

4:43:204:43:27

clearly scapegoats to cover up

malpractice by more senior

4:43:274:43:30

colleagues. One employee, unable to

afford representation, lost an

4:43:304:43:38

unfair dismissal claim. The tribunal

seems to have done a cut and paste

4:43:384:43:42

job on the DWP submission and made

no serious attempt to address what

4:43:424:43:46

really happened. The other employee

did not even try to claim. Since

4:43:464:43:51

2014, nobody has been able to tell

me any possible gain from the fraud

4:43:514:43:57

to the staff who were sacked.

Others, however, did have a clear

4:43:574:44:03

incentive to boost benefit off Flo.

I have pursued this for 3.5 years,

4:44:034:44:11

unable to remedy the injustice. One

of the women is still out of work

4:44:114:44:14

after more than three years. I want

to place on the public record an

4:44:144:44:19

account of what really happened.

Poorly designed numerical targets

4:44:194:44:25

gave a big scented is to managers,

and in this case, perhaps in others,

4:44:254:44:30

they succumbed to ten take --

temptation to bend the rules for

4:44:304:44:34

their own advancement. As well as

holding managers to account,

4:44:344:44:38

ministers need to reflect on what

went wrong, and on the very high

4:44:384:44:42

price paid by holy blameless

employees, and also by large numbers

4:44:424:44:48

of benefit claimants.

This time last

year, my single, a band aid cover

4:44:484:45:00

named national living rage, rocketed

up the Christmas charts,

4:45:004:45:03

highlighting the plight of workers

in the national scandal of low and

4:45:034:45:07

unfair pay in Britain. There are

many matters of sincere importance

4:45:074:45:11

being discussed, but this Christmas

perhaps there are few as critical,

4:45:114:45:19

as heartbreaking and as lamentable

as the fact that 128,000 children

4:45:194:45:23

will wake up homeless on Christmas

morning. I can't help wonder how

4:45:234:45:29

closely my two recent Christmas

campaigns are linked, because over

4:45:294:45:36

half the homeless households in

London are in work.

4:45:364:45:42

It will take heart of stone to

consider childhood homelessness on

4:45:434:45:46

any scale acceptable and am

astonished to hear our Prime

4:45:464:45:50

Minister appearing to justify this

crisis yesterday by remarking that

4:45:504:45:54

these children are not rough

sleepers. Maybe not but these

4:45:544:45:58

children will wake up on Christmas

morning in Airbnbs, hostels, or on

4:45:584:46:04

the heart of a working industrial

estate in my own constituency -- in

4:46:044:46:10

B&Bs.

I have seen children sleeping

rough but certainly children under

4:46:104:46:19

12 in hostels run by churches to

keep people off the street and that

4:46:194:46:22

for me is the lowest level of roof

overhead there is. It is not a long

4:46:224:46:30

step from sleeping on the street

itself.

I completely agree with my

4:46:304:46:34

honourable friend. If I take Sarah's

family in temporary accommodation,

4:46:344:46:39

they will not have a Christmas

dinner because they have no

4:46:394:46:42

facilities to cook it. They will not

have a Christmas treat because the

4:46:424:46:46

room cannot fit anything other than

the bed that the four of them share.

4:46:464:46:50

They will not have any presents

because every penny possible is

4:46:504:46:54

being put aside to one day have

enough for the extortionate deposit

4:46:544:46:57

that is the golden ticket needed to

enter the private rented sector. I

4:46:574:47:02

will be amazed if Father Christmas

is even able to find Sarah's family

4:47:024:47:07

because she is one of the 22,000

families that have been moved out of

4:47:074:47:12

their home Boro often without

receiving the local author --

4:47:124:47:18

without the receiving local

authority being made aware of their

4:47:184:47:20

arrival and when that happens I'm in

no doubt that their safety cannot be

4:47:204:47:25

guaranteed. Children's rights

Alliance for England recent Freedom

4:47:254:47:28

of information request have

astonishingly discovered that almost

4:47:284:47:32

a quarter of temporary accommodation

is only inspected by local

4:47:324:47:36

authorities once the tenants have

left. Worryingly, nearly two thirds

4:47:364:47:41

said they did not even seek advice

from their safeguarding servers when

4:47:414:47:45

they placed families in B&Bs or

temporary accommodation. These are

4:47:454:47:50

the realities faced by the 79,190

families in temporary accommodation

4:47:504:47:56

in England today and of course these

figures do not even account for the

4:47:564:48:01

9000 rough sleepers on the street of

each of our constituencies or the

4:48:014:48:07

56% of 16-25 -year-old in the UK who

say they have families or friends

4:48:074:48:12

who have so far served. There can be

no doubt as to the responsibility

4:48:124:48:15

for this country's deplorable

housing crisis. The report yesterday

4:48:154:48:20

from the public affairs committee

explicitly read that the Department

4:48:204:48:24

for Communities and Local Government

had and an acceptably complacent

4:48:244:48:29

attitude to reducing homelessness.

The current plans to tackle the

4:48:294:48:32

issue were that address only the tip

of the iceberg and there is an

4:48:324:48:37

unacceptable shortage of realistic

housing options for the homeless.

4:48:374:48:41

Most of us know that already. The

last time the government target of

4:48:414:48:46

300 new homes were built in one year

in England was achieved almost half

4:48:464:48:51

a century ago in 1969. The different

back then was that councils and

4:48:514:48:56

housing associations were building

new homes. A solution is right in

4:48:564:49:01

our hands and that is to give

councils the right to build as well

4:49:014:49:04

as the right to buy. The private

sector has never reached and does

4:49:044:49:09

not have the inclination to reach

the government target. Take last

4:49:094:49:12

year for example. Only 121,000

permanent dwellings were completed

4:49:124:49:20

by private companies. Meanwhile just

184 -- 1840 were completed by local

4:49:204:49:27

authorities. If the government

target of building 300,000 new homes

4:49:274:49:33

is to be achieved, councils simply

had to play their part and that is

4:49:334:49:37

why I am calling upon the government

to grant local authorities the right

4:49:374:49:41

to build and the right to buy so

that housing can be let to families

4:49:414:49:44

on low incomes at social housing

rents. A home to live in should

4:49:444:49:51

appear on no child's Christmas list,

Father Christmas is not in a

4:49:514:49:55

position to influence the budgets of

local authorities but the government

4:49:554:49:58

is and on behalf of the 128,000

homeless children across the country

4:49:584:50:05

I sincerely hope this will be their

last Christmas morning without a

4:50:054:50:07

place to call home.

As always it is

a pleasure to be called and I want

4:50:074:50:15

to quickly focus on the real meaning

of Christmas. It is not about the

4:50:154:50:22

date but the remembrance and it

means a celebration of Christ from

4:50:224:50:26

the time set aside for people around

the world to remember that Christ

4:50:264:50:30

gave up his ability to come to

Earth.

4:50:304:50:38

There's no point in Christmas if we

did not have Easter and I'm pleased

4:50:424:50:45

to celebrate them both. As a time of

people from every nation have time

4:50:454:50:50

to recognise not a date but a

promise fulfilled, but the time of

4:50:504:50:53

birth but an offer for new births to

all who believe and accept Christ

4:50:534:50:57

and not a birth certificate but a a

loving God to people. That is what

4:50:574:51:01

Christmas is all about. I love

Christmas is a time to remember what

4:51:014:51:07

the Lord did for us and Christians

throughout the world are joining

4:51:074:51:11

with me and others to thank God for

the real meaning of Christmas. We

4:51:114:51:16

also remember those who cannot

worship our God like everybody of

4:51:164:51:22

can who threw the book and physical

abuse can go to a church and

4:51:224:51:28

worship. I would urge the members of

this house to pray for them and keep

4:51:284:51:33

them in their thoughts. I thought

very much of what I wanted to say

4:51:334:51:45

about the volunteers and I want to

focus on them quickly to set a most

4:51:454:51:52

sincere thank you to the people in

our community who work day and night

4:51:524:51:57

sacrificing and doing a lot more to

provide help to people throughout

4:51:574:52:00

the UK. They will be the people

spending Christmas without their

4:52:004:52:06

family and will take care of other

people, whether it is NHS staff,

4:52:064:52:12

health staff, the GP services, lab

technicians, police services,

4:52:124:52:18

intelligence agencies who do not

sleep in their bed so we can sleep

4:52:184:52:22

in hours, the Fire Service and

prison officers, those in uniform

4:52:224:52:27

whether the Navy, Army or air force.

Those in another part of the world

4:52:274:52:33

will not be close to their family

and we should think of them. I also

4:52:334:52:39

wanted to highlight the fact that

our nation would not work as it does

4:52:394:52:42

without the help and support of the

little army of volunteers that Daly

4:52:424:52:48

give their time and energy to make a

difference and help people

4:52:484:52:50

throughout this land and we could

not do without them. We live in a

4:52:504:52:58

nation of givers, people who give

charitably and greatly throughout

4:52:584:53:01

the year and it makes me proud to be

British when we have such a giving

4:53:014:53:05

mentality also I know us in Northern

Ireland perhaps get above the

4:53:054:53:13

national average but we all do that

and we should keep it in mind.

4:53:134:53:17

Unconscious of a few charities, I

will not go through them all because

4:53:174:53:20

I would not have the time, but I

want to mention the food banks who

4:53:204:53:25

do a lot of work at this time of the

year. The 700 independent once, they

4:53:254:53:35

do almost 3 million hours of

volunteer work each year, equivalent

4:53:354:53:39

to a basic wage of some £22 million,

that is what they do for us and we

4:53:394:53:48

should keep in mind. If we think of

one sector, this politic base

4:53:484:53:51

support is well as the thousands who

food banks to help communities and

4:53:514:53:56

we all need to contribute to that. I

wanted to express my thanks to all

4:53:564:54:00

of those who have volunteered and

helped out in churches and community

4:54:004:54:06

groups in my constituency and the

rest of our great United Kingdom of

4:54:064:54:12

Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

Our society would not work without

4:54:124:54:15

people helping others and this

selflessness is so clear at

4:54:154:54:18

Christmas as you hear people

donating to food banks, churches

4:54:184:54:22

providing gifts and carol singing to

the elderly as people invite

4:54:224:54:26

neighbours and relatives to eat with

them. It is about family, all of us

4:54:264:54:33

hopefully it will have our family

around us but some people do not and

4:54:334:54:36

we should be mindful of them also I

want to offer a sincere thank you to

4:54:364:54:41

everyone who has played a part this

year in making someone's life better

4:54:414:54:47

and with it is the Salvation Army

who did help to individuals, the

4:54:474:54:54

homelessness that others have

referred to, we all have a focus for

4:54:544:54:59

our people and what we try to do. I

want to thank U, Mr Speaker, for

4:54:594:55:05

your patience for us all in the

house. I say it with sincerity every

4:55:054:55:12

time. You probably show more

patients to me than anybody else!

4:55:124:55:19

And I will try this year to not use

the word you and I will try for that

4:55:194:55:26

to happen, it has only taken me

seven years! But I will try to

4:55:264:55:30

remember it in the year to come. Do

the honourable member for Chorley,

4:55:304:55:34

he is very much in our thoughts. I

want to put that on record and we

4:55:344:55:41

keep his family very much in our

minds and prayers at this time. To

4:55:414:55:45

the other deputy speakers who

equally treat us fairly with the

4:55:454:55:51

patience and kindness that you are

to us. And maybe one thing, you are

4:55:514:56:00

very much a champion of the

backbencher, and for me being one of

4:56:004:56:05

those, I particularly enjoy the

opportunity to participate in the

4:56:054:56:08

debates. To those and Saad staff who

have been able to understand my

4:56:084:56:15

accent, thank you for that --

Hansard staff. And to all those who

4:56:154:56:27

are looking after a sick the

security, and can I offer to all

4:56:274:56:31

right honourable members, to Her

Majesty's government and opposition

4:56:314:56:37

to have a very Merry Christmas and

happy New Year and on behalf of my

4:56:374:56:42

constituents who I have the

privilege to represent, I wish them

4:56:424:56:48

a Merry Christmas publicly in this

house and a happy New Year. Thank

4:56:484:56:51

you so much.

I thank the honourable

gentleman who has spoken in the

4:56:514:56:56

spirit we have come to expect from

them and it is hugely appreciated.

4:56:564:57:02

What a pleasure it is to follow my

honourable friend who has been a

4:57:024:57:06

real source of encouragement since I

joined this out and I pay tribute to

4:57:064:57:10

him. I'm grateful for the

opportunity to contribute to this

4:57:104:57:13

Christmas adjournment and I would

like to express my best wishes to

4:57:134:57:17

the whole house in particular the

staff who have been incredible in

4:57:174:57:22

welcoming to new members for a very

happy and peaceful Christmas. When I

4:57:224:57:26

volunteered to some of this debate

for the assembly I had not quite

4:57:264:57:29

been aware of what I was letting

myself in for! We have had 16

4:57:294:57:34

backbench contributions from members

from various constituencies and it

4:57:344:57:51

has been probably the most

wide-ranging debate I have sat in on

4:57:514:57:55

the house and I pay tribute to the

honourable gentleman to the member

4:57:554:58:01

for South and West who got similar

topics in. I also want to place on

4:58:014:58:07

record my sincere thanks to Mike

constituency staff for all their

4:58:074:58:15

hard work since by-election in June.

Their support has been invaluable

4:58:154:58:20

and I'm indebted to them. The turn

of the year is normally an

4:58:204:58:25

opportunity for us to reflect on the

year past but I want to look forward

4:58:254:58:30

to 2018 and in particular to some of

the major challenges coming down the

4:58:304:58:34

track from my own city of Glasgow.

Last Friday I met with Easterhouse

4:58:344:58:39

Housing and regeneration Alliance

which is a coalition of social

4:58:394:58:43

housing providers in greater

Easterhouse. Before going further I

4:58:434:58:49

would like to pay tribute to the

staff and directors of those housing

4:58:494:58:52

associations because they are more

than just that. They are the

4:58:524:58:58

backbone of the community and are

well above and beyond the role of

4:58:584:59:02

the registered social landlord and

it is important that the point is

4:59:024:59:05

place on record and ours is here

thanks for all the housing

4:59:054:59:10

associations which are so often the

glue that holds communities

4:59:104:59:12

together. When I met last week, they

express to meet serious concerns

4:59:124:59:18

about changes emanating from the

Department for Work and Pensions

4:59:184:59:21

next year that will be a hammer blow

to the city of Glasgow and a double

4:59:214:59:26

blow at that. Ministers have already

signalled their intention to close

4:59:264:59:30

half of Glasgow's job centres with

three out of four in the East End of

4:59:304:59:34

June for the axe. As it stands, job

centres in Easterhouse and Parkhead

4:59:344:59:39

as well as Bridgeton will all be

closed and relocated to Shettleston.

4:59:394:59:45

Nowhere in the UK is being as

disproportionately impacted by these

4:59:454:59:51

closure at the east end of Glasgow

which has an unemployed rate that is

4:59:514:59:55

double that of the UK national

average. I'm afraid that despite

4:59:555:00:00

countless written questions, items

of correspondence and meeting from

5:00:005:00:04

the employment minister has

repeatedly failed to take account of

5:00:045:00:08

the profound concerns expressed by

myself and the whole community in

5:00:085:00:11

the East End of Glasgow and that

includes our three East End Tory

5:00:115:00:15

councillors who also opposed the

closures.

5:00:155:00:21

I thank him for giving wave. The job

centre closures are affecting the

5:00:215:00:26

whole city of Glasgow. Is he

particularly concerned, as iambic,

5:00:265:00:31

that ministers have neither been

reassuring on whether this will be

5:00:315:00:33

the last round of closures, and

there is a risk that further down

5:00:335:00:37

the road the city could lose even

more job centre provision?

I think

5:00:375:00:43

he is absolutely right. That should

sound the alarm bells, and I join

5:00:435:00:49

him in -- in expressing concern. It

is not too late to drop these plans

5:00:495:00:53

and they should conduct a full

equality impact assessment. When

5:00:535:00:58

they do that, they will see for

themselves the profound challenges

5:00:585:01:02

posed in terms of sanctions,

transport connections and the deep

5:01:025:01:07

rooted issues of territorial as and

gang violence that exist in our

5:01:075:01:10

city. The second issue relates to

universal credit. The social

5:01:105:01:20

destruction of universal credit is

due to be unleashed on Glasgow next

5:01:205:01:23

year and it is crystal clear from

debates in this House that universal

5:01:235:01:28

credit is not working. More than

that, it is fundamentally flawed and

5:01:285:01:32

that we can around the edges we saw

in the Budget is not enough.

5:01:325:01:37

Concerns exist, not just from

politicians in the House but from

5:01:375:01:41

Housing associations and the third

sector, as to how it will be rolled

5:01:415:01:46

out, particularly in Glasgow.

Evidence is mounting showing that

5:01:465:01:50

universal credit creates social

destruction as it rolls out. I would

5:01:505:01:53

say that the reduction from six

weeks down to five weeks is not

5:01:535:01:56

enough. The wait for the first

payment is pushing into debt and

5:01:565:02:03

crisis and we know 25% of payments

are waiting longer than six weeks,

5:02:035:02:08

according to the Department for Work

and Pensions. The manner in which

5:02:085:02:11

the Tories have rolled this out is

opposed to their stated intention of

5:02:115:02:17

making universal credit a salary.

The refusal is nothing more than

5:02:175:02:23

arrogance because we see the party

opposite are wedded to this

5:02:235:02:26

ideological flagship welfare cut,

despite the misery it is causing in

5:02:265:02:31

communities. Citizens advice

Scotland have said that evidence

5:02:315:02:36

shows an average of a 15% rise in

rent arrears issues compared to a

5:02:365:02:42

national decrease of 2%, and an 87%

increase in crisis grant issues,

5:02:425:02:46

compare to a national increase of

9%. They analysed over 52,000 cases

5:02:465:02:52

and concluded that those on

universal credit would, on average,

5:02:525:02:55

appear to have fewer than £4 per

month left to pay their creditors

5:02:555:03:01

after they paid essential costs.

That is not something we should

5:03:015:03:04

condone. The Trussell Trust reported

a 7% increase in food bank use in

5:03:045:03:10

areas of universal credit roll-out,

more than double the national

5:03:105:03:15

average. In my own constituency, a

food bank is that breaking point.

5:03:155:03:20

What we will see with full universal

credit roll-out in Glasgow could be

5:03:205:03:24

the straw that breaks the camel's

back. That is why I am calling for

5:03:245:03:29

the roll-out of universal credit to

be halted in Glasgow and abandoned

5:03:295:03:32

entirely. If there is one thing I

have learned in my time in this

5:03:325:03:37

House, it is that this government

has a difficult job with listening.

5:03:375:03:41

We see it with opposition debates,

with the power grab, with the Brexit

5:03:415:03:44

Bill. With Christmas spirit, I would

ask ministers to come back to this

5:03:445:03:51

House with a New Year 's resolution

to listen and act in the interest of

5:03:515:03:55

communities, and they can start by

abandoning the proposed closures of

5:03:555:04:00

Glasgow's job centres and halting

the universal credit roll-out in

5:04:005:04:03

Glasgow.

I promised brevity to the

House, as I am aware that colleagues

5:04:035:04:11

will want to return to their

constituencies and families for

5:04:115:04:15

Christmas and maybe start some

Christmas shopping for those who

5:04:155:04:18

have not managed it. I spotted some

ministers today in the House of

5:04:185:04:24

Commons shop myself, so I know we

are behind. With the Prime Minister,

5:04:245:04:30

the Defence Secretary, the Foreign

Secretary, the trade Secretary and

5:04:305:04:33

the Business Secretary all in

Poland, and the first secretary

5:04:335:04:37

resigning, I wonder if my opposite

number, the Deputy Leader, feels he

5:04:375:04:41

is starring in the remake of home

alone for Christmas. I enjoy working

5:04:415:04:47

opposite him. He has been supportive

and I wish him well in his

5:04:475:04:51

endeavours. The government is in

safe hands with him in coming weeks.

5:04:515:04:56

Brexit is the biggest issue of our

time and it has been right that we

5:04:565:05:00

have concentrated so much of our

time in this place on that subject.

5:05:005:05:05

We have had over 64 hours of debate

on the withdrawal bill, over 300

5:05:055:05:10

amendments have been tabled in

total, 14 reports by ten different

5:05:105:05:14

committees. We have had 43 votes in

total, and we have one one of those,

5:05:145:05:22

but a very important one. As many

colleagues have said previously, and

5:05:225:05:27

you have endorsed, it is crucial to

the functioning of our parliamentary

5:05:275:05:31

democracy that all members vote

according to their judgment in the

5:05:315:05:35

best interest of their constituents,

and the outcome of amendment seven

5:05:355:05:40

has been reassuring for Democrats. I

never thought I would be pleased to

5:05:405:05:45

be surrounded by so many eminent

lawyers in the last few weeks, but

5:05:455:05:51

it has been very interesting. I have

found it quite a treat to witness

5:05:515:05:56

colleagues so ingenuously pursuing

every legislative avenue to take

5:05:565:06:02

back control to this place. I have

learnt a lot, I have learnt about

5:06:025:06:06

humble addresses, and I am almost

clear on the difference between a

5:06:065:06:10

sector analysis and an impact

assessment.

You could make a lot of

5:06:105:06:18

money on that!

We owe many

honourable and right honourable

5:06:185:06:22

members, who have pored over every

detail of the withdrawal bill, their

5:06:225:06:25

advisers and the clerks of this

house, a huge debt, and I sincerely

5:06:255:06:29

hope they have some lighter reading

over the Christmas period. Members

5:06:295:06:35

have pursued, whilst we have been

talking about Brexit, other

5:06:355:06:39

important debates here and in

Westminster Hall, and we heard

5:06:395:06:42

particularly from colleagues here

about the roll-out of universal

5:06:425:06:45

credit, and we have heard it again

this afternoon. It is having a huge

5:06:455:06:50

impact on families struggling to

make ends meet, who we particularly

5:06:505:06:53

think about over the Christmas

period. All of us, regardless of

5:06:535:06:58

party, have a huge number of

constituents affected. I know

5:06:585:07:00

colleagues will share our commitment

to do what we can to mitigate the

5:07:005:07:05

impact of this policy when the House

returns in the New Year. We have

5:07:055:07:09

heard again in this debate from many

honourable members about issues

5:07:095:07:13

close to their hearts and their

constituencies, and it has been a

5:07:135:07:18

fairly sombre debate this afternoon,

with so many important issues being

5:07:185:07:24

raised, which illustrates again that

regardless of what side of the House

5:07:245:07:28

we sit, our constituents often face

the same issues, and we share work

5:07:285:07:33

and support each other across the

House to make that better for

5:07:335:07:35

people. We heard from honourable

members from many

5:07:355:07:52

constituencies, on a huge range of

subjects. I did not know it was the

5:07:555:08:07

50th anniversary of Crisis, which we

heard about today, starting off from

5:08:075:08:12

the honourable member for debate.

Transport occupied my friends, an

5:08:125:08:21

excellent point on behalf of sports

fans about travelling on Boxing Day,

5:08:215:08:27

workers, shoppers and theatre-goers.

My honourable friend from Ealing and

5:08:275:08:34

central act and is well advised on

transport matters by a very keen son

5:08:345:08:38

on these subjects, and she made a

very good point about the impact of

5:08:385:08:42

welcome infrastructure projects on

her constituency, and the importance

5:08:425:08:46

of small business with HS2. My

friend from West Ham demonstrates

5:08:465:08:53

the range of passionate campaigns

she has pursued in this place and

5:08:535:08:58

the huge respect in which she is

held for that work across the House,

5:08:585:09:02

and we heard from three of the

campaigns she will be pursuing. She

5:09:025:09:07

already managed to elicit some

response from the government bench

5:09:075:09:09

already. I first heard the

honourable member speak to a Labour

5:09:095:09:16

Party talk when I was obviously a

young child in the late 1980s,

5:09:165:09:22

talking about defence and

international affairs. He was hugely

5:09:225:09:26

impressive and knowledgeable on the

subject and talked with passion

5:09:265:09:29

about British citizens here and

abroad. Long may he continue to do

5:09:295:09:33

so on behalf of the people of Ilford

South. My friend from

5:09:335:09:39

Kingston-upon-Hull is the embodiment

of the phrase "Must persevere". I

5:09:395:09:44

remember hearing the good news she

brought forward about the campaign

5:09:445:09:48

in July, and I am struck to hear

that she has again had to pursue

5:09:485:09:52

every single avenue. She will

persist, and she made that point so

5:09:525:09:57

eloquently on behalf of those

families. My friend from East Ham is

5:09:575:10:02

very knowledgeable and I listen

tentatively when he is talking about

5:10:025:10:06

such matters, raised terrible

accounts of activities going on in

5:10:065:10:10

the job centre and I know he will

pursue that with ministers. And my

5:10:105:10:16

friend reminded us of her record

production for last year, which we

5:10:165:10:21

very much enjoyed, and pursues

relentlessly another Christmas

5:10:215:10:24

campaign on behalf of those homeless

children she has been working so

5:10:245:10:29

well on, another dedicated

campaigner who has been a constant

5:10:295:10:32

source of good advice and support to

me personally, and many other

5:10:325:10:36

honourable members. I am sure

everyone will join me in giving

5:10:365:10:40

thanks to all those across the

country who, despite enormous

5:10:405:10:44

pressure on local services, work so

hard over this period to provide the

5:10:445:10:48

vital services communities need, our

service men and women who keep us

5:10:485:10:52

safe, to those who keep public

places clean, and to all public

5:10:525:10:56

servants, it heartfelt thanks for

all they do. If I may just touch on

5:10:565:11:01

my own constituency, Bristol South,

I would like to picture the two GPs

5:11:015:11:04

surgeries and staff at South Bristol

Community Hospital who will be

5:11:045:11:09

providing vital care to people over

this period. In keeping with the

5:11:095:11:13

Christmas tradition, the red red

Robin keeps bobbing along. I would

5:11:135:11:17

like to take this opportunity to say

well done to Bristol City on their

5:11:175:11:23

2-1 win last night against

Manchester United in Ashton Gate.

5:11:235:11:27

Never have I met so many fans of not

wanting Manchester United to win as

5:11:275:11:32

last night, Mr Speaker. I am not a

regular football fan. I enjoy the

5:11:325:11:37

occasional game. I work closely with

the club in my constituency and they

5:11:375:11:41

make a huge contribution to the

local community. Many other football

5:11:415:11:45

clubs across the country do that

work, so well done to them and I

5:11:455:11:49

hope they have some rest over the

period for the next game, Manchester

5:11:495:11:52

City. It is a shame we did not have

a different drawer. I would have

5:11:525:11:57

enjoyed welcoming you to Bristol

South to partake in watching the

5:11:575:12:00

game, if Arsenal had been drawn. I

am looking forward to spending my

5:12:005:12:04

family time in Bristol. I am sure

they will be pleased to see me. It

5:12:045:12:10

is not easy, as has been said, our

families support us very well and I

5:12:105:12:16

hope many honourable members will

have time with their families. I

5:12:165:12:19

will be catching up with the Crown.

I am a fan of the series and I hope

5:12:195:12:25

to polish my accent a bit by the end

of the session. I am hoping to catch

5:12:255:12:30

up with the last Jedi. If honourable

members have not seen Paddington

5:12:305:12:36

two, I recommend it. It carries

heart-warming messages about the

5:12:365:12:40

importance of an inclusive, caring

society which we could all take back

5:12:405:12:43

with us. Those from Bristol will

have the opportunity to visit my

5:12:435:12:49

constituency to watch beauty and the

beast being performed in the Tobacco

5:12:495:12:51

factory Theatre, a reminder that in

these often very cruel times, we are

5:12:515:12:58

seeing that beauty and beastliness

are only skin deep. On that note, Mr

5:12:585:13:04

Speaker, I would wish to all my

colleagues and colleagues across the

5:13:045:13:07

house, a safe and happy, peaceful

Christmas. I look forward to

5:13:075:13:12

continuing to work with you all in

the New Year, and welcoming in a new

5:13:125:13:17

Labour government.

Well, it was going so well until

5:13:175:13:27

that last point! I really don't

think that is likely to happen. In

5:13:275:13:33

fact, can I start by welcoming the

honourable lady's comments? She

5:13:335:13:38

started by mentioning how many

ministers from Her Majesty's

5:13:385:13:41

government were in Poland at the

moment. Can I assure the House that

5:13:415:13:45

I am not the only one left, as you

can see from the front bench. The

5:13:455:13:49

stock markets may still be open, so

I don't want to alarm the stock

5:13:495:13:54

market. I am not in charge! I hear

shouts of "Shame" from behind me and

5:13:545:14:03

that will be kindly noted. Can I

start by making reference to my

5:14:035:14:08

honourable friend from Harrow East,

because he spoke as passionately as

5:14:085:14:13

ever about his constituency, but

before doing so, he made reference

5:14:135:14:17

to the member for Chorley, the

chairman of ways and Means, Deputy

5:14:175:14:22

speaker of this House, and the

tragedy that has befallen him, and

5:14:225:14:25

our hearts go out to that member,

our friend, at this time of tragedy.

5:14:255:14:33

The honourable gentleman also

referred to the work he has done in

5:14:335:14:38

the Homelessness Reduction Act,

which is very soon to come into

5:14:385:14:41

force, the 1st of April, I think,

next year. He mentioned it is the

5:14:415:14:46

longest and most expensive private

members bill ever. That is

5:14:465:14:51

impressive, but what is important is

the fact that he has achieved this

5:14:515:14:57

and it is a wonderful achievement,

and one that recognises the

5:14:575:15:01

interests of us all in reducing

homelessness. He also spoke about

5:15:015:15:06

those events in his constituency and

those organisations such as mencap,

5:15:065:15:14

such as the organisation that

encourages very young children and

5:15:145:15:18

people to work on computer code, and

he spoke about the Crisis charity.

5:15:185:15:24

And I know that the honourable

gentleman, my friend, is a member

5:15:245:15:28

who is referred to by the Hindu

community in his constituency with a

5:15:285:15:35

term of affection, someone who is

recognised throughout Harrow East as

5:15:355:15:39

a representative of all.

5:15:395:15:44

The honourable gentleman for Keely

spoke of the lack of a train service

5:15:445:15:47

on Boxing Day and also about his

sports teams and those teams he

5:15:475:15:53

wishes well and we join him in that.

That is no doubt something that a

5:15:535:15:59

number of constituents across the

house will recognise as an issue,

5:15:595:16:03

that the absence of a train on

Boxing Day and one I'm sure he will

5:16:035:16:07

pursue. He did actually finish his

remarks I think by mentioning a

5:16:075:16:14

horse race in his constituency, the

King George, which takes place on

5:16:145:16:18

that day and no doubt he will be

there and enjoying it. At least I'm

5:16:185:16:22

making that assumption. As far as my

honourable friend for Mole Valley is

5:16:225:16:27

concerned, he made a passionate

speech about HPV vaccination for

5:16:275:16:34

boys as well as girls. This is

clearly something which he speaks

5:16:345:16:39

with considerable expertise about

because I know he has a dental

5:16:395:16:44

background and he made a powerful

case and I have no doubt he will

5:16:445:16:47

want to raise this with the Health

Secretary because what he said was

5:16:475:16:51

clearly well-informed. I can say

that since 2010 survival rates for

5:16:515:16:59

cancer have increased year on year

and it is true to say that the

5:16:595:17:02

statisticians have calculated that

some 7000 people are alive today who

5:17:025:17:06

would not have been because of those

increases. But there is of course

5:17:065:17:11

much more work still to do. The

honourable gentleman for Caithness

5:17:115:17:16

and Sutherland and Easter Ross spoke

about the importance of broadband in

5:17:165:17:22

his constituency and since 2014I

would have to say that the Scottish

5:17:225:17:25

Government have had the funding and

have not started on that important

5:17:255:17:31

area, they are behind England, Wales

and Northern Ireland and the next

5:17:315:17:36

generation of broadband will not be

going through the Scottish

5:17:365:17:38

Government as a consequence of that.

The local full fibre network

5:17:385:17:44

programme and the 5G programme the

UK Government will work with local

5:17:445:17:49

councils directly because it is

important that broadband is provided

5:17:495:17:54

to his constituents and of course

the goes throughout Scotland. My

5:17:545:18:00

honourable friend for Beckenham

spoke about settled funding and

5:18:005:18:03

spoke passionately about Bromley and

the efficiency of that council and

5:18:035:18:08

clearly they have a powerful

advocate in him. As do other

5:18:085:18:14

organisations such as our Armed

Forces have such a powerful advocate

5:18:145:18:17

in my honourable and gallant friend

for Beckenham. He is a powerful

5:18:175:18:25

advocate for his constituency and he

spoke about the efficient running of

5:18:255:18:28

his local government authority and

have no doubt the Department for

5:18:285:18:32

Communities and Local Government

will hear what he has said. The

5:18:325:18:34

honourable lady for Ealing Central

and acting spoke about HS2 and the

5:18:345:18:42

Park Royal area in her constituency.

I can say that she spoke clearly

5:18:425:18:48

about small businesses and their

value and I am sure she will want to

5:18:485:18:54

congratulate the government on the

back that the UK has been ranked

5:18:545:18:56

first for the first time in the

Forbes annual survey of the best

5:18:565:19:00

countries for business. But I

understand having looked into the

5:19:005:19:04

matter that she raised about

compensation for small businesses in

5:19:045:19:08

the area that under law the first

date for compensation would be the

5:19:085:19:12

10th of January 2018 and I

understand that is expected on time,

5:19:125:19:17

that is what I have been told.

Payments of up to £250,000 are

5:19:175:19:24

discretionary to help with the cash

flow and I have also been told that

5:19:245:19:28

the Minister for rail has written to

her and the letter was posted today.

5:19:285:19:33

I'm hoping she will receive it very

soon. My honourable friend for

5:19:335:19:37

Southend West spoke as he has done

before about the painful condition

5:19:375:19:45

of endometriosis and I know he will

continue to highlight that painful

5:19:455:19:52

condition which affects hundreds of

thousands of people around the world

5:19:525:19:56

and many here in the UK. He also

spoke about volunteering on C, an

5:19:565:20:05

organisation in his constituency

which looks after this advantage and

5:20:055:20:08

people -- on sea, and that he had

attended an event with a number of

5:20:085:20:15

centenarians. He still has a long

way to go before he is a member of

5:20:155:20:18

that particular club but I know how

well he looks after people of all

5:20:185:20:22

ages in his constituency. I know he

is still keen to see Southend

5:20:225:20:28

declared a city and he mentioned the

Royal wedding which of course I

5:20:285:20:33

would be remiss if I did not offer

congratulations to his Royal

5:20:335:20:37

Highness Prince Harry and wish him

well. As to whether Southend is a

5:20:375:20:41

city by that date, he will have to

consult other is than myself. The

5:20:415:20:46

honourable lady for West Ham, I was

very pleased to hear she had a

5:20:465:20:51

productive meeting with my right

honourable friend from the health

5:20:515:20:57

Department about the painful

condition with which I know she has

5:20:575:21:01

been passionately campaigning for so

long and she has support for all

5:21:015:21:04

quarters of this house on that

subject and I'm pleased the meeting

5:21:045:21:07

with the minister went well. She

also spoke about the fixed odds

5:21:075:21:12

betting terminals that are a feature

in today's day and age and she will

5:21:125:21:20

no doubt be pleased that

consultation has been launched by

5:21:205:21:22

the government on that issue. I know

she has focused also in her remarks

5:21:225:21:29

today about the depersonalisation

disorder that she knows an

5:21:295:21:34

individual who suffers from and it

is one where sometimes diagnosis is

5:21:345:21:40

very strong but she wishes to meet

the Department of Health on that and

5:21:405:21:45

I am sure we can arrange that

meeting. We will certainly do

5:21:455:21:48

everything we can if she writes to

me about that. My honourable friend

5:21:485:21:55

for Mid Worcestershire spoke about

volunteering in his constituency and

5:21:555:22:03

also about the surveillance we have

seen of intolerance in British

5:22:035:22:08

politics which he described, and I

think we would all agree, is not

5:22:085:22:12

acceptable. Most members, he said,

and I can confirm, get on very well

5:22:125:22:15

with each other from across the

house and are able to chat and

5:22:155:22:19

disagree professionally but perhaps

still able to get on well and

5:22:195:22:23

socialise. I would simply say that

everyone in this house would agree

5:22:235:22:32

that abuse and threatening

behaviour, insulting conduct, the

5:22:325:22:38

leaving of copper and outside of MPs

offices and the like is to be

5:22:385:22:44

deprecated in the strong as possible

terms -- coffins. We would all agree

5:22:445:22:49

with him about that. He said he is

proud of his party, the Conservative

5:22:495:22:54

Party, and can I say that the party

is proud of him. And the honourable

5:22:545:23:00

gentleman for Ilford South spoke

about those people within the

5:23:005:23:09

European Union and elsewhere around

the world who lose votes when they

5:23:095:23:14

have been living outside the UK,

their power to vote after 15 years.

5:23:145:23:19

I was pleased to hear that he is in

favour of reforming that. I do think

5:23:195:23:23

it was the Labour Party that reduced

the level from 20 years to 15 years

5:23:235:23:30

under a previous Labour government,

but I'm pleased he is speaking about

5:23:305:23:33

the right of UK citizens living in

EU countries and I have heard my

5:23:335:23:38

honourable friend behind me speaking

about the subject repeatedly. I

5:23:385:23:41

think it has been agreed that that

rule, the intention is to scrap it

5:23:415:23:48

before the next scheduled general

election in 2022. Mr Speaker, my

5:23:485:23:53

honourable friend from Stafford, I

would like to start by mentioning

5:23:535:23:56

that as far as he's concerned he can

claim a personal success in his

5:23:565:24:03

campaigning for the hospital in his

area which I know he has worked a

5:24:035:24:08

great deal on. He spoke about the

NHS and like all others he will be

5:24:085:24:12

so proud of the National Health

Service. I'm pleased to say that

5:24:125:24:15

according to be, or fund, it has

been rated the best amongst the 11

5:24:155:24:23

developed countries -- according to

the Commonwealth fund. It is

5:24:235:24:27

something the NHS and all that stuff

can be proud of. As we all do, he

5:24:275:24:32

wants the best Brexit deal for the

country and no doubt he and many

5:24:325:24:36

others will join me in expressing

great confidence that the Prime

5:24:365:24:40

Minister will deliver that. But he

did speak is often on humanitarian

5:24:405:24:50

work and the 4 million displaced

people in the Congo and that is

5:24:505:24:53

something I know he will continue to

do. The honourable lady for

5:24:535:24:57

Edinburgh North and Leith made some

comments and allegations and no

5:24:575:25:03

doubt she will want to make them in

the proper place. Members of this

5:25:035:25:07

house are open to considerable

scrutiny and I invite her to declare

5:25:075:25:13

anything she may have Internet

information on that subject to the

5:25:135:25:16

appropriate authorities. As far as

the honourable lady for Kingston

5:25:165:25:21

upon Hull North is concerned, she

has been a passionate campaign on

5:25:215:25:25

the contaminated blood issue and she

is to be commended for her work on

5:25:255:25:28

that and she did say she was

grateful to the government because

5:25:285:25:34

the Prime Minister has agreed to

hold an enquiry, a public enquiry,

5:25:345:25:38

and there is more to be done and

then stand the written ministerial

5:25:385:25:42

statement to date indicated that it

would be a judge led inquiry and

5:25:425:25:47

there will be a further statement in

the New Year as far as the name of

5:25:475:25:54

the judge is concerned and the judge

chosen will also be part of

5:25:545:25:58

discussions about the fuller

composition of the inquiry. The

5:25:585:26:04

honourable gentleman for East Ham

spoke about a particular job centre

5:26:045:26:11

issue in his constituency which was

certainly concerning to hear about

5:26:115:26:15

and I would suggest that if he has

not already done so, I suspect he

5:26:155:26:19

has, but he should read it with the

relevant minister at the Department

5:26:195:26:23

for Work and Pensions because he

made a powerful case. The honourable

5:26:235:26:26

lady for Mitcham and Morden, Her

Majesty's government is dedicating

5:26:265:26:35

over £1 billion to 2020 to tackling

homelessness and rough sleeping as

5:26:355:26:40

well as supporting the Homelessness

Reduction Act of my honourable

5:26:405:26:44

friend and if I may, I'm running out

of time, I would say that 1.1

5:26:445:26:49

million additional homes have been

delivered since 2010, over 357,000

5:26:495:26:55

affordable homes, 217,000 last year,

the highest but all but one of the

5:26:555:26:59

last 30 years so there is more work

to do and there always is that

5:26:595:27:03

house-building is darts have

increased by more than three

5:27:035:27:08

quarters since to does not and over

432,000 households have been helped

5:27:085:27:12

into home ownership through

government schemes like help to buy

5:27:125:27:15

and right to buy. We finished with

the honourable gentleman. Inferred.

5:27:155:27:19

He spoke of the true meaning of

Christmas and I remember him doing

5:27:195:27:25

so at last at this time and can I

thank him and congratulate him for

5:27:255:27:28

the work he does. He spoke

passionately about volunteers and

5:27:285:27:34

the giving mentality which is a big

I know he himself has and he spoke

5:27:345:27:38

of the wonderful people of Northern

Ireland and his constituency and I

5:27:385:27:41

can absolutely agree with him about

but not least because I should

5:27:415:27:44

declare an interest because my

mother was born there so I know well

5:27:445:27:47

about that. He is a doughty champion

in this place for the disadvantaged

5:27:475:27:52

and the dispossessed around the

world. And at this time of year he

5:27:525:27:57

is a powerful advocate for those

good causes. He spoke of course is

5:27:575:28:03

the champion of the backbenchers and

I know they would certainly agree,

5:28:035:28:10

and can I take this opportunity to

thank U, Mr Speaker, to thank all of

5:28:105:28:15

the Deputy speakers and the staff of

this house for the work they do all

5:28:155:28:19

year round, and also to thank those

not only to protect this house in

5:28:195:28:27

its security and serve it in a

myriad of different ways, but also

5:28:275:28:30

those who protect this country.

Whether it be here in the United

5:28:305:28:34

Kingdom or around the world, Her

Majesty's Armed Forces serving

5:28:345:28:40

around the world, many of whom will

not be with their families over the

5:28:405:28:43

festive period. Can I take this

opportunity from the dispatch box to

5:28:435:28:47

thank them for their service to this

country and of course to thank

5:28:475:28:52

everyone here and wish them all a

very Merry Christmas.

I thank the

5:28:525:28:58

deputy leader of the house, the

shadow deputy leader, all colleagues

5:28:585:29:01

the sobbing for their speeches and

in particular for the expressions of

5:29:015:29:05

gratitude -- and all colleagues this

afternoon. And above all to all

5:29:055:29:11

those who serve as in various

capacities with greater ability and

5:29:115:29:16

commitment in this house. The

question is that this house has

5:29:165:29:20

considered matters to be raised

before the forthcoming adjournment.

5:29:205:29:28

I think the ayes have it, the ayes

have it. We come now to the

5:29:285:29:33

adjournment, the whip to move.

I beg

to move that the houses now

5:29:335:29:37

adjourned.

The question is that the

house do now adjourned.

Thank you,

5:29:375:29:44

Mr Speaker. In spite of the fact

this is the last business before the

5:29:445:29:51

recess and indeed the last business

this year, it is still an issue of

5:29:515:29:55

great seriousness and grave concern

to my constituents and to many who

5:29:555:30:02

have been injured or killed whilst

cycling on our roads in this

5:30:025:30:06

country. Mr Speaker, on the 12th of

December last year, 58-year-old Ian

5:30:065:30:12

Winter Byrne was cycling to work at

7:30am and as he did every day. He

5:30:125:30:17

was a keen and regular cyclist and

as usual he was wearing his

5:30:175:30:23

cyclist's high visibility jacket and

all his bike lights were on. He

5:30:235:30:26

always wore a cycling helmet. As he

was passing the junction of

5:30:265:30:31

Whittaker claim on the ASICS want to

ring road in Holton in Leeds, a

5:30:315:30:37

silver Skoda Sabbir was signalling

to turn right but instead of waiting

5:30:375:30:43

for him to cycle past the driver, he

went straight into him, knocking him

5:30:435:30:47

off his bike and fatally injuring

him.

5:30:475:30:53

The driver claimed she did not see

him, and after ten days in a coma,

5:30:545:30:59

he died from his injuries on

December 22. Mr Speaker, cyclist

5:30:595:31:06

Charlie Alistair Mann was famously

sentenced to 18 months in prison

5:31:065:31:10

recently for fatally injuring a

pedestrian, one of two such fatal

5:31:105:31:16

accidents last year, and yet many

more cyclists have been killed and

5:31:165:31:21

badly injured by cars in that same

period. His case, justifiably, had

5:31:215:31:28

plenty of media coverage, but

shocking deaths such as that of my

5:31:285:31:33

constituent, scarcely receive any.

And public anger towards cyclists is

5:31:335:31:37

now at an all-time high. The

51-year-old driver that killed Ian

5:31:375:31:44

was sentenced on October 20 by Leeds

Magistrates' Court to causing death

5:31:445:31:48

by careless driving. And given a

four-month suspended prison sentence

5:31:485:31:53

for two years, a £200 fine... Of

course.

I congratulate my honourable

5:31:535:32:02

friend for bringing this debate

today, as I co-chair the All Party

5:32:025:32:07

Parliamentary Group on Iran. Could I

commend one of the recommendations

5:32:075:32:09

in our report on justice for

cyclists, where we asked the

5:32:095:32:15

government to address the confusion

and overlap between the terms

5:32:155:32:20

"Careless" and "Dangerous tribe in"

in these cases?

Can I thank my

5:32:205:32:27

honourable friend for her

intervention and I will be dealing

5:32:275:32:29

with the issue of careless driving

versus dangerous driving and the

5:32:295:32:33

different penalties and making

reference to the all party is

5:32:335:32:37

cycling group which my honourable

friend ably chairs, and which I am

5:32:375:32:41

currently the treasurer of. I was

telling members that the driver that

5:32:415:32:46

killed Ian was sentenced to a four

month suspended prison sentence for

5:32:465:32:52

two years, a £200 fine, 200 hours of

community service and a two year

5:32:525:32:57

driving ban. She had previously had

a licence suspended for 14 months

5:32:575:33:02

for drink-driving. One of the most

shocking aspects of this tragic

5:33:025:33:09

case, apart from the loss of a much

loved husband, father and teacher,

5:33:095:33:15

is the way in which the family have

been treated by the various

5:33:155:33:19

authorities involved in dealing with

this terrible, totally avoidable

5:33:195:33:23

loss of such a valuable life. Ian

Winter beurre noisette at 7:28am on

5:33:235:33:28

that day but the West Yorkshire

Police crash investigation team did

5:33:285:33:34

not arrive at the scene for over an

hour. The police and the CPS

5:33:345:33:39

believed that the driver did not

adequately defrost her car

5:33:395:33:43

windscreen before setting off from

her home near by, and there was

5:33:435:33:48

circumstantial evidence to support

this, as her windscreen wipers and

5:33:485:33:51

the heating in her car were on full

power, in spite of the fact that it

5:33:515:33:57

was a dry day. However, because the

crash investigation team took so

5:33:575:34:00

long to drive -- to arrive, they

could not confirm the state of the

5:34:005:34:07

in -- windscreen at the time of the

accident. Had they arrived sooner

5:34:075:34:11

they could have been proof and the

charge that the driver faced would

5:34:115:34:15

have been causing death by dangerous

driving, a charge which carries a

5:34:155:34:19

considerably higher sentence on

conviction than the lesser charge of

5:34:195:34:23

death by careless driving. There is

only one crash team for the whole of

5:34:235:34:29

West Yorkshire, an area with a

population of 2.3 million. The

5:34:295:34:34

family have asked a number of

pertinent questions, such as why is

5:34:345:34:39

there only one crash team for such a

large area, how many people are in

5:34:395:34:44

that team, how many crash

investigations do they investigate

5:34:445:34:47

each week, and where is the team

based? It took more than three hours

5:34:475:34:52

for the police to contact the widow

that day to inform our about the

5:34:525:34:56

collision. When she asked why it had

taken so long the answer was that

5:34:565:34:59

the crash team were too busy

securing the crash site and

5:34:595:35:04

collecting evidence, and that there

were not enough staff to contact her

5:35:045:35:07

earlier. As members may imagine,

this was extremely traumatic, and

5:35:075:35:13

her family -- for her and her family

and added to the trauma they

5:35:135:35:20

experienced upon hearing such

terrible news. But it gets worse.

5:35:205:35:25

When the family arrived at hospital

they spent a number of hours in the

5:35:255:35:28

resuscitation unit, where no staff

were available to keep them updated.

5:35:285:35:35

Ian was still wearing his cycling

clothes and it was to be another 16

5:35:355:35:38

hours before any member of staff

gave the family information about

5:35:385:35:43

the extent of his injuries, the

prognosis, or the next steps in his

5:35:435:35:47

treatment. Let me move on to the

role of the coroners service.

5:35:475:35:54

Although Ian died on the 22nd of

December, one year ago tomorrow, it

5:35:545:35:59

took until January the 10th to

obtain a death certificate. This was

5:35:595:36:05

apparently because of a backlog over

the Christmas and New Year holidays

5:36:055:36:08

but it meant that his body had to be

kept at the Leeds General

5:36:085:36:14

Infirmary's mortuary for two weeks

before a funeral could take place.

5:36:145:36:18

As members may imagine, this added

considerably to the stress and

5:36:185:36:22

trauma suffered by the family.

Presumably there are still people

5:36:225:36:27

who die from unknown causes

accidents over holiday periods.

5:36:275:36:30

Although everyone deserves holidays

and time off, surely it is important

5:36:305:36:35

that the coroners service does not

close, except maybe on Christmas Day

5:36:355:36:38

itself. The Crown Prosecution

Service told the family that the

5:36:385:36:43

case against the driver who killed

Ian would be heard in the Crown

5:36:435:36:48

Court. It was that serious. And that

they should not attend the

5:36:485:36:53

Magistrate court's hearing, which

would be a formality and would only

5:36:535:36:57

last a few minutes. However, in the

event, the driver was convicted

5:36:575:37:04

after two one hour sessions by the

Magistrates' Court, and no support

5:37:045:37:08

whatsoever was given to the family.

No help was even offered to the

5:37:085:37:12

family in the preparation of their

victim statements, which of course

5:37:125:37:16

they had little knowledge of how to

prepare and no previous experience

5:37:165:37:19

of writing. This further added to

the anxiety felt by the close family

5:37:195:37:25

and made them lose faith in the

whole criminal justice system. One

5:37:255:37:30

of the pertinent questions asked by

Ian's daughter, my constituent, who

5:37:305:37:35

is here today, when she came to see

me about her father's death and her

5:37:355:37:39

family's treatment by various

authorities was, why is the most

5:37:395:37:45

senior CPS lawyer in West Yorkshire

only employed for two days per week?

5:37:455:37:49

After the shock of the brief court

case and what the family feels is

5:37:495:37:54

the inadequate sentence for a driver

who had previously been given a 14

5:37:545:37:58

month driving ban after a conviction

for drink-driving, the family was

5:37:585:38:02

told by police that the coroner

would now close the inquest because

5:38:025:38:07

there had been a criminal

conviction. A short while later, the

5:38:075:38:11

coroner phoned Georgina, Ian's

widow, to tell her there would still

5:38:115:38:14

be an inquest after all, and a

number of witnesses would attend the

5:38:145:38:18

inquest. As we can imagine, this

came as a huge shock to the family

5:38:185:38:23

and Alex, Ian's daughter, rang West

Yorkshire Victim Support to ask what

5:38:235:38:29

the family should expect from the

hearing, only to be told that they

5:38:295:38:32

knew nothing about the hearing. The

next day, the Coroner's Office rang

5:38:325:38:37

Georgina to tell her that there had

been "A mix-up" and there would not

5:38:375:38:42

be an inquest after all. No apology

has ever been offered for the

5:38:425:38:45

further upset caused to the family

by the so-called mix-up. Mr Speaker,

5:38:455:38:50

many members of this House will know

I am also a keen cyclist, because I

5:38:505:38:54

pester them every summer to donate

to my annual charity bike ride and I

5:38:545:38:58

can often be seen arriving at the

Palace of Westminster in my hideous

5:38:585:39:01

brightly coloured lycra on my Carbon

racing bike. And you, Mr Speaker,

5:39:015:39:08

have generously seen me off on some

of my cycling jaunts. I am an

5:39:085:39:12

officer of the all-party is cycling

group, which published a report last

5:39:125:39:16

July into cycling and the justice

system. We took a huge amount of

5:39:165:39:22

evidence from cycling groups,

lawyers, the police, the Crown

5:39:225:39:26

Prosecution Service, Transport for

London, local authorities and many

5:39:265:39:28

others. Amongst our conclusions and

recommendations were, and I'm

5:39:285:39:34

quoting some but not all, that the

police must ensure a higher standard

5:39:345:39:39

of investigation is maintained in

all cases where serious injury has

5:39:395:39:44

resulted. This includes eyesight

testing, which I need, mobile phone

5:39:445:39:52

records, assessment of speed, drink

and drug driving. We received many

5:39:525:39:57

examples of police failing to

investigate properly, or even to

5:39:575:40:00

interview victims or witnesses. Too

often we can investigations have

5:40:005:40:05

undermined subsequent cases. I hope

maybe the Minister will comment on

5:40:055:40:10

this. We also recommended that all

police forces should ensure that

5:40:105:40:15

evidence of common offences

submitted by cyclists or other

5:40:155:40:19

witnesses, using bike or person

mounted cameras or smartphones, is

5:40:195:40:23

put to use and not ignored. So often

these bits of evidence are ignored.

5:40:235:40:30

The confidence of cyclists that

their safety is a priority of the

5:40:305:40:33

police will be undermined if this

evidence is dismissed and no action

5:40:335:40:36

is taken. In some cases, a written

warning may be enough to change bad

5:40:365:40:43

behaviour. The length of time

required by the police to serve a

5:40:435:40:47

notice of intended prosecution for a

road traffic offence is currently

5:40:475:40:50

just 14 days, and must be extended.

That was one of our strong

5:40:505:40:55

recommendations. This period, we

believe, is too short to enable many

5:40:555:41:00

cases to be adequately processed,

and in some cases it may enable

5:41:005:41:04

offenders to escape justice

altogether. We also said there was

5:41:045:41:09

confusion and overlap, which is

where my honourable friend comes in,

5:41:095:41:14

confusion and overlap between

"Careless" and dangerous driving,

5:41:145:41:18

which means often bad driving does

not receive the level of punishment

5:41:185:41:22

that the public feel it should. New

offences introduced over the last

5:41:225:41:27

few years have started to plug some

of the gaps in the legislation, but

5:41:275:41:32

many problems remain, particularly

where cyclists are the victims. The

5:41:325:41:37

Ministry of Justice, we believe,

should examine in more detail how

5:41:375:41:40

these offences are being used,

including the penalties available

5:41:405:41:43

for offences of careless and

dangerous driving. The police and

5:41:435:41:49

the Crown Prosecution Service should

ensure that victims and bereaved

5:41:495:41:53

families are always kept adequately

informed throughout the process of

5:41:535:41:56

deciding charges. While in many

cases this is done, we have heard of

5:41:565:42:02

victims being ignored and only

informed at a much later date that

5:42:025:42:06

cases have been dropped, or guilty

pleas for lesser offences accepted.

5:42:065:42:12

Thank you to my honourable friend.

I'm a member of the justice select

5:42:125:42:16

committee and one of the issues we

hear of that does not just apply in

5:42:165:42:19

cases like this but is the cutbacks

in court services in the Ministry of

5:42:195:42:25

Justice which means there are fewer

people to do these admin to tasks

5:42:255:42:30

but very important tasks. In too

many occasions justice is not being

5:42:305:42:36

served either to victims or families

because of these admin is to

5:42:365:42:41

failures, because they're literally

are the people to make the kind of

5:42:415:42:45

contact that my honourable friend

points out is so important in times

5:42:455:42:48

like this

thank you for a helpful

intervention. The first part of my

5:42:485:43:00

speech showed, clearly, from my

discussions with the family, that

5:43:005:43:03

they are such a family. They had an

appallingly bad service from the

5:43:035:43:08

CPS. They were not kept informed at

all, not given any assistance, there

5:43:085:43:15

was no family support whatsoever.

Whether that is cutbacks or bad

5:43:155:43:19

organisation and training, I don't

know. The honourable lady probably

5:43:195:43:23

knows more than I do, as a member of

the justice select committee, but I

5:43:235:43:27

leave the Minister to respond. The

final recommendation I want to draw

5:43:275:43:33

the attention of the House two is

that the number and length of

5:43:335:43:38

driving bans appears to have

declined, with a 62% fall in driver

5:43:385:43:42

disqualifications over the last ten

years, double the fall in

5:43:425:43:47

convictions for driving offences.

Furthermore, large numbers of

5:43:475:43:49

drivers are escaping

disqualification upon reaching 12

5:43:495:43:53

points on their licence or more. The

Ministry of Justice should examine

5:43:535:43:58

the reasons behind the decline in

the use of the penalty of

5:43:585:44:02

disqualification, and in particular

the effect of the so-called

5:44:025:44:05

exceptional hardship scheme. I know

that our report, published seven

5:44:055:44:11

months after Ian Ward is killed,

will ring many bells in the minds of

5:44:115:44:15

his family, who still grieve for him

every day. The family would also

5:44:155:44:20

like answers to specific questions,

notwithstanding the recommendations

5:44:205:44:24

I have read out, so could the

Minister answer the following: What

5:44:245:44:27

is the current status of the review

of guidelines for causing death by

5:44:275:44:33

careless driving? Is there even a

review being carried out? Why do

5:44:335:44:37

drivers who have caused death not

face mandatory custodial sentences?

5:44:375:44:42

How many complaints does the

Ministry of Justice receive about

5:44:425:44:46

the coroners service every year?

What training is given to the

5:44:465:44:50

coroners service staff? Who holds

the coroners service to account? Is

5:44:505:44:56

it the Ministry of Justice, or is it

any form of local accountability?

5:44:565:45:00

And when was the last review of the

coroners service, and what were its

5:45:005:45:04

findings? The final question the

family want to know about is when

5:45:045:45:11

will the coroners service website be

improved, in order to offer more and

5:45:115:45:16

better information to grieving and

unsupported families? That seems a

5:45:165:45:23

simple reform. In conclusion, if we

truly care about our environment and

5:45:235:45:28

about the growing public health

crisis, surely we must do far more

5:45:285:45:33

touring carriage cycling, both as a

healthy activity and as a way of

5:45:335:45:37

reducing carbon emissions and

congestion. But tragedies like the

5:45:375:45:43

death of this cyclist do nothing but

discourage the public from cycling.

5:45:435:45:49

We need to make cycling easier and

much, much safer, and part of that

5:45:495:45:54

task is to ensure that when terrible

fatal accidents take place, the

5:45:545:45:59

appropriate administration of

justice can be relied upon. We all

5:45:595:46:03

need the assurance that cycling is a

safe activity, and a good way to

5:46:035:46:09

move around towns and cities for

everyone who is capable of using a

5:46:095:46:12

bike. Meaningful answers to, and

action from the family's pertinent

5:46:125:46:20

questions, born out of tragedy and

grief, would be a good start.

5:46:205:46:28

Thank you Mr Speaker and may I begin

by thanking you for your stewardship

5:46:285:46:32

over the last year and wish you a

restful Christmas with your family

5:46:325:46:36

and can I also congratulate the

honourable member for Leeds North

5:46:365:46:41

East for securing today's debate. It

is fishing we finished debating such

5:46:415:46:47

an important issue and that it is

the honourable member who is leaving

5:46:475:46:50

it in his doughty way, passionately

defending and champion his

5:46:505:46:53

constituents who have raised an

issue not just of local concern but

5:46:535:46:57

national importance. Those

colleagues who have dealt with

5:46:575:47:03

tragic cases like this in their own

constituencies know that whether it

5:47:035:47:07

is careless or dangerous driving it

can ruin lives and devastate

5:47:075:47:10

families. Numerous colleagues from

across the house have raised their

5:47:105:47:14

cases with me as he has done in a

very passionate and tenacious way

5:47:145:47:18

and of course with my predecessors

covering this portfolio at the

5:47:185:47:23

Ministry of Justice. I should say at

the outset by way of context that

5:47:235:47:27

road deaths in Britain have been

reducing over the past 30 years as a

5:47:275:47:30

result of a range of factors

including safer infrastructure, new

5:47:305:47:35

vehicle technologies, tougher law

enforcement, shifting social

5:47:355:47:39

attitudes and I think there has been

a ground shift in the way people

5:47:395:47:42

think about drink-driving, and also

we ought to again pay tribute to our

5:47:425:47:49

precious NHS which is providing far

better trauma care ban was the case

5:47:495:47:54

when I was first passing my highway

code. As a result, casualty figures

5:47:545:47:59

show a 5% fall from last year alone

however it is still the case that

5:47:595:48:04

over 27,000 people died or were

seriously injured on our roads last

5:48:045:48:08

year. Whilst many of these are

tragic accidents, too many involve

5:48:085:48:13

criminal behaviour and whether it is

classified as dangerous or careless

5:48:135:48:19

driving, or in some cases just

failing to stop at the scene so

5:48:195:48:25

there is proper accountability. And

of course behind every statistic,

5:48:255:48:32

each of those 27,000 cases represent

an individual story, a life

5:48:325:48:38

devastated, a family devastated,

personal suffering and family

5:48:385:48:40

trauma. The honourable member for

Leeds North East raises one of those

5:48:405:48:45

tragic cases here today which is the

death of his constituent Ian

5:48:455:48:56

Winterburn. I believe some of the

family are here today and I would

5:48:565:49:01

want to extend my personal

condolences and deepest sympathies

5:49:015:49:05

to them. Particularly at this

delicate time as we approach

5:49:055:49:09

Christmas. Mr Winterburn was

involved in a road traffic incident

5:49:095:49:12

just over a year ago and tragically

died of his injuries. As the

5:49:125:49:19

honourable member will know, as

Justice Minister I cannot comment on

5:49:195:49:24

either the judicial treatment of an

individual case or indeed the

5:49:245:49:29

decision on prosecution or the

charges brought by the CPS, those

5:49:295:49:33

matters are dealt with independently

which is of course right that

5:49:335:49:38

politicians should not interfere

with judicial matters. Some of the

5:49:385:49:43

operational police matters, he will

know, for his local constabulary or

5:49:435:49:48

Police and Crime Commissioners but

with that in mind he has raised a

5:49:485:49:50

large number of questions I want to

focus on as many as I can in the

5:49:505:49:54

time available. I can talk, as he

knows, in general terms about what

5:49:545:49:58

the government is doing to ensure

the courts have adequate powers to

5:49:585:50:01

deal with the most serious offences

committed in our roads that result

5:50:015:50:04

in either death or injury. As I

think he will know, on the 16th of

5:50:045:50:11

October the government published its

response to the consultation on

5:50:115:50:14

driving offences and penalties

relating to causing death and

5:50:145:50:18

serious injury. This concentrated on

the most serious driving offences,

5:50:185:50:22

those that result in death or very

serious injury. It considered a

5:50:225:50:26

whole range of concerns that had

been raised over recent years by

5:50:265:50:31

victims of these crimes and their

families by other members of the

5:50:315:50:34

public whether individually or as

signatories to petitions.

5:50:345:50:41

Parliamentarians raised issues both

in debate on the heart of their

5:50:415:50:44

constituents as well. The

consultation closed earlier this

5:50:445:50:48

year and we received 9000 responses.

I think that is close to if not a

5:50:485:50:53

record which shows how widespread

the public interest is and the

5:50:535:50:56

concern is on this very pertinent

area of law. It is one of those

5:50:565:51:00

areas which is not Esoterique, it

affects people's daily lives. We

5:51:005:51:05

considered all of the responses in

detail and all of the submissions

5:51:055:51:09

before publishing the response. In

that response we distilled those

5:51:095:51:14

views and considered them and came

forward with three specific changes

5:51:145:51:17

to the law, all of which I should

save received overwhelming support

5:51:175:51:21

in the consultation and I hope the

honourable member will welcome them.

5:51:215:51:25

I'm always careful about this given

the suffering and the sense in which

5:51:255:51:30

justice can only really go a small

part of the way but I hope the

5:51:305:51:34

victims and the families find some

solace in the measures we are able

5:51:345:51:37

to take and that the public see a

stronger sense of justice in what we

5:51:375:51:41

are about to do. First we propose to

give the cause additional powers to

5:51:415:51:45

deal with the most serious cases

where life is lost and we will

5:51:455:51:49

propose to increase the maximum

penalty for causing death by

5:51:495:51:51

dangerous driving from the current

14 years to life imprisonment and

5:51:515:51:56

that means that in the most serious

cases, for example where an offender

5:51:565:52:00

as a previous conviction for serious

crimes, where the behaviour is

5:52:005:52:05

particularly dangerous or culpable,

or there may be multiple victims,

5:52:055:52:08

offenders could face depending on

the judicial determination a maximum

5:52:085:52:11

life sentence. We also propose to

raise the maximum penalty for

5:52:115:52:18

causing death by careless driving

whilst under the influence of drink

5:52:185:52:21

or drugs from 14 years to life

imprisonment. Although the standard

5:52:215:52:25

of driving in those cases, the

latter category, may not amount to

5:52:255:52:30

dangerous driving per se, we

consider that if you combine it with

5:52:305:52:33

the decision to get behind the wheel

under the influence of either drink

5:52:335:52:37

or drugs, the overall seriousness of

the offence should be considered the

5:52:375:52:41

same as the dangerous driving and

the penalties should quit the same.

5:52:415:52:45

We also proposed to close a

different gap in the law. Currently

5:52:455:52:49

the maximum penalty for careless

driving is a fine and I think not

5:52:495:52:53

least given some of the anguish that

the honourable member has reflected

5:52:535:52:59

in his powerful speech, I think it

is time to consider whether that is

5:52:595:53:02

good enough. The penalty of a fine

is a case for all careless driving,

5:53:025:53:09

whether it result in death or not,

so even if the driver injures

5:53:095:53:13

another road user, cyclist or

passenger and even if the incident

5:53:135:53:18

with the victim being left with a

very serious debilitating or

5:53:185:53:21

permanent injury, the court can only

impose a fine and it seems clear we

5:53:215:53:27

need the Lord to provide a stronger

response. We propose to create a new

5:53:275:53:32

offence of causing serious injury by

careless driving and that will have

5:53:325:53:35

a custodial penalty to sit alongside

the existing offence of causing

5:53:355:53:40

serious injury by dangerous driving.

Again, this was supported by those

5:53:405:53:45

who responded to the consultation

earlier this year. We propose to

5:53:455:53:50

bring forward those proposals for

reform as soon as Parliament to time

5:53:505:53:53

allows. The government is determined

to clamp down on all dangerous,

5:53:535:54:00

careless and reckless criminal

behaviour that takes place on our

5:54:005:54:02

roads and it is right that any

changes to legislation should take

5:54:025:54:06

account of all of the government's

wider proposals for safer roads and

5:54:065:54:11

he talked a little bit about cycling

in the context for it and we want to

5:54:115:54:16

make sure we have a consistent

sentencing framework for those who

5:54:165:54:20

kill or cause serious injury on the

road and we intend to cooperate with

5:54:205:54:23

the changes I have outlined along

with those that emerged from the

5:54:235:54:28

review cycling safety which I'm sure

they will commend and welcome and

5:54:285:54:33

that was of course announced by the

Transport Secretary in September. In

5:54:335:54:39

the time available want to touch on

some of the wider points that the

5:54:395:54:42

honourable gentleman as mentioned in

his speech. He asked about the

5:54:425:54:49

sentencing council. It is obviously

independent and responsible for

5:54:495:54:53

issuing and keeping guidelines under

review. Review the guidelines for

5:54:535:54:57

motoring offences involving death is

on the council's workplan. It has

5:54:575:55:02

been postponed pending government

consultation and any changes to law

5:55:025:55:05

that flow from that and it is of

course sensible that a guideline

5:55:055:55:09

should reflect the changes to the

law. There is no point having a

5:55:095:55:14

review of the guide that if the law

is about to change and a new draft

5:55:145:55:17

guideline will be subject to full

public consultation in due course. I

5:55:175:55:23

think the honourable gentleman also

asked about the distinction between

5:55:235:55:26

careless and dangerous driving and I

know this has been looked at. I will

5:55:265:55:32

try to address that in times. The

law set out an objective test as it

5:55:325:55:36

stands designed to compare the

driving in the specific

5:55:365:55:40

circumstances of the case against

what would be expected of a

5:55:405:55:44

notionally careful and competent

driver and what amounts to dangerous

5:55:445:55:49

driving is determined not as is more

normal in the criminal law by

5:55:495:55:52

considering the driver's state of

mind or intentions which in the

5:55:525:55:55

context of driving is often quite

difficult to gauge or ascertain but

5:55:555:56:00

by examining the nature of the

driving itself and in general terms

5:56:005:56:03

if the court considers the driving

to fall below the standard it would

5:56:035:56:08

be obvious to a competent and

careful driver that the manner of

5:56:085:56:12

dry that was danger inks then the

court will find it to have been

5:56:125:56:16

dangerous driving. -- was dangerous.

Which examined the option of a

5:56:165:56:21

single bad driving offence which he

has referred to and we set out in

5:56:215:56:25

detail why we are not persuaded of

the case for change. Those who have

5:56:255:56:30

tended to propose the single test

has said it will lead to more

5:56:305:56:34

convictions and longer sentences and

I understand the impetus and the

5:56:345:56:36

drive behind that. As explained in

the conservation we don't think that

5:56:365:56:41

would necessarily be the case

because the maximum penalty for the

5:56:415:56:44

single offence would have to be

broad enough to cover the serious

5:56:445:56:49

offences and we have proposed for

causing death that it could be a

5:56:495:56:55

life sentence but also the least

serious offence where the driver is

5:56:555:57:00

culpable is much lower and that is

the challenge in the proposal, to

5:57:005:57:05

reconcile and unite those two

offences. If we do not have a

5:57:055:57:08

distinction in the offenders between

the seriousness of the offending it

5:57:085:57:10

is possible that the conviction rate

could actually fall because jury 's

5:57:105:57:15

might be alerted to connect a driver

in some of those less serious cases

5:57:155:57:19

where they could imagine themselves

in the same position for an event of

5:57:195:57:22

a serious maximum penalty. And

sentences may not increase either

5:57:225:57:28

since the judge in the case would

still consider the culpability of

5:57:285:57:32

the offender in deciding on the

appropriate sentence. I would not

5:57:325:57:35

want to mislead victims of families

that a border offence might result

5:57:355:57:41

in higher sentences. I'm also not

sure that a single offence would

5:57:415:57:44

mean the CPS would be unable to

accept a lesser plea in

5:57:445:57:47

circumstances where that was

inappropriate. I hope I have at

5:57:475:57:51

least addressed some of the

wide-ranging concerns that he has

5:57:515:57:57

raised in this very important

debate. It is our last debate, Mr

5:57:575:58:02

Speaker, before we close for

Christmas. Can I finish by saying

5:58:025:58:07

that I can't think of anything more

tragic than the loss of a life,

5:58:075:58:11

especially where it was avoidable

and that is where we are all trying

5:58:115:58:14

to get to. I want to again extend my

deepest condolences to the

5:58:145:58:20

Winterburn family, especially as we

approach Christmas time. No

5:58:205:58:22

punishment will make up for the loss

of a loved one, we all know that,

5:58:225:58:26

but what we can and should do is

make sure that justice is properly

5:58:265:58:30

done, it is the least the victims

and the families deserve. It is

5:58:305:58:34

precisely what the public expects.

The question is that this have to

5:58:345:58:40

now adjourn. I think the ayes have

it. Order, order.

5:58:405:58:50

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