Browse content similar to 25/01/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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He raises a very important issue. He
might want to seek an adjournment | 0:00:00 | 0:00:00 | |
debate to get a clear answer from
ministers. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:04 | |
THE SPEAKER: Statement, the
Secretary of State for Defence. | 0:00:04 | 0:00:09 | |
Secretary Gavin William son. Thank
you, Mr Speaker. | 0:00:09 | 0:00:14 | |
I undertook to return to the House
at the earliest opportunity to | 0:00:14 | 0:00:19 | |
update honourable and Right
Honourable members on the programme | 0:00:19 | 0:00:24 | |
to modernise defence, which the
Ministry of Defence will be | 0:00:24 | 0:00:28 | |
conducting in the months ahead.
Following agreement of the high | 0:00:28 | 0:00:34 | |
level findings of the national
capability review by the National | 0:00:34 | 0:00:38 | |
Security Council, I have agreed with
the Prime Minister and Chancellor | 0:00:38 | 0:00:41 | |
that we should take forward its
recommendations for a programme of | 0:00:41 | 0:00:47 | |
further work to modernise defence,
to deliver better military | 0:00:47 | 0:00:51 | |
capability and value for money in a
sustainable and affordable way. This | 0:00:51 | 0:00:57 | |
is essential if defence is to make
its full contribution to national | 0:00:57 | 0:01:02 | |
security. For 2015 national skurt
strategy and the SDR set out a clear | 0:01:02 | 0:01:13 | |
ambition to ensure the Armed Forces
can tackle the threats that we face. | 0:01:13 | 0:01:18 | |
It also proposed important new
policy initiatives, including a | 0:01:18 | 0:01:23 | |
stronger international approach.
Pursuit of innovation, modernise | 0:01:23 | 0:01:29 | |
personnel policies and defence
making a bigger contribution to our | 0:01:29 | 0:01:32 | |
national prosperity.
And we're making real strides to | 0:01:32 | 0:01:38 | |
unlock greater efficiency and
productivity. | 0:01:38 | 0:01:42 | |
Protecting the United Kingdom and
our people remains our first | 0:01:42 | 0:01:46 | |
priority and responsibility.
As the threats we face become more | 0:01:46 | 0:01:52 | |
complex and intertwined we will need
to work ever more closely with our | 0:01:52 | 0:01:56 | |
Nato allies.
We can also expect to remain | 0:01:56 | 0:02:02 | |
actively involved with our partners
in the Gulf in tackling shared | 0:02:02 | 0:02:05 | |
threats to our security and the Asia
Pacific region will become more | 0:02:05 | 0:02:10 | |
important to us in the years ahead.
The Ministry of Defence is making a | 0:02:10 | 0:02:15 | |
major contribution to our
prosperity. Both as we procure the | 0:02:15 | 0:02:20 | |
equipment our Armed Forces deserve
and support defence exports, in | 0:02:20 | 0:02:24 | |
which there have been recent
successes, most notably the £6 | 0:02:24 | 0:02:32 | |
billionTy foon contract agreed with
Qatar. Significant events last week, | 0:02:32 | 0:02:37 | |
the callous terrorist attacks in
London and Manchester and the major | 0:02:37 | 0:02:43 | |
storms which ravaged dependencies in
the Caribbean. They are reminders of | 0:02:43 | 0:02:47 | |
our wider responsibilities. We need
to contain threats that have their | 0:02:47 | 0:02:52 | |
origin overseas and be prepared to
react swiftly and effectively when | 0:02:52 | 0:02:58 | |
crisis arise. As we identified in
2015, this requires the force we are | 0:02:58 | 0:03:07 | |
building to be versatile and agile.
It will need to be capable of | 0:03:07 | 0:03:11 | |
operating in all five domains, land,
sea, air, space and cyber. It will | 0:03:11 | 0:03:17 | |
need to be international by design,
routinely exercising and operating | 0:03:17 | 0:03:21 | |
with allies and partners. It will
need to be credible and capable of | 0:03:21 | 0:03:26 | |
operating against state and none
state threats. Normally not alone, | 0:03:26 | 0:03:31 | |
but with allies, such as Nato and
our partners, but always having the | 0:03:31 | 0:03:38 | |
ability to act on our own if and
when that is required. | 0:03:38 | 0:03:42 | |
And it must be able to contribute to
our national security at home, | 0:03:42 | 0:03:49 | |
working with the police and other
national security organisations. | 0:03:49 | 0:03:54 | |
Whilst the major elements of our
plans for joint force 2025 remain | 0:03:54 | 0:03:59 | |
the right ones, in order to secure
competitive advantage over our | 0:03:59 | 0:04:04 | |
potential adversaries we need to
ensure we can move quickly, to | 0:04:04 | 0:04:10 | |
further strengthen our capabilities
in priority areas and reduce | 0:04:10 | 0:04:14 | |
resources we devote elsewhere. The
Government commissioned the national | 0:04:14 | 0:04:18 | |
security capability review to the
sure we have a policy and plans to | 0:04:18 | 0:04:22 | |
impl I meant our own national
security strategy, ensuring our | 0:04:22 | 0:04:27 | |
investment in national security
capabilities is as joined up, | 0:04:27 | 0:04:30 | |
effective and as constituent as
possible to address current national | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
security challenges.
A report will be published later in | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
the spring. As my Right Honourable
friend, the Prime Minister, said, in | 0:04:39 | 0:04:48 | |
her recent Lord mayor's banquet
speech, the threats and risks and | 0:04:48 | 0:04:53 | |
challenges are more complex and
intertwined and have developed in | 0:04:53 | 0:04:58 | |
areas and ways that we broadly
expected but as a much greater pace | 0:04:58 | 0:05:03 | |
than was foreseen.
The defence budget is £36 billion | 0:05:03 | 0:05:08 | |
this year. That's the fifth largest
defence budget in the world and it | 0:05:08 | 0:05:13 | |
will increase by £1 billion a year,
so that it will almost be £40 | 0:05:13 | 0:05:18 | |
billion by 2021. The UK Government
remains one of a few countries to | 0:05:18 | 0:05:26 | |
exceed Nato's 2% spending target.
This Government has committed to | 0:05:26 | 0:05:30 | |
increase the defence budget by at
least 0.5% above inflation every | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
year. However, we must do more to
ensure that we use our resources | 0:05:34 | 0:05:43 | |
effectively and deliver the
efficiencies the department | 0:05:43 | 0:05:47 | |
committed to. So they can be
reinvested in the capabilities that | 0:05:47 | 0:05:52 | |
we require for our Armed Forces it
is for this reason that I agreed | 0:05:52 | 0:05:55 | |
with the Prime Minister and the
Chancellor to launch the modernising | 0:05:55 | 0:05:59 | |
defence programme, so that we can
strengthen and modernise the Armed | 0:05:59 | 0:06:04 | |
Forces, to meet the threats that
were identified. Modernising defence | 0:06:04 | 0:06:09 | |
will allow us to deliver better
military capability and value for | 0:06:09 | 0:06:16 | |
money in a sustainable and
affordable way. It will ensure | 0:06:16 | 0:06:20 | |
defence capabilities compliment
other national security capabilities | 0:06:20 | 0:06:23 | |
in the most effective way. I'm
determined to realise this goal | 0:06:23 | 0:06:29 | |
through a modernised, more
productive and more effective joint | 0:06:29 | 0:06:33 | |
force, which can deter threats more
effectively and ensure we can | 0:06:33 | 0:06:37 | |
deliver what is required of defence
today and succeed in any future | 0:06:37 | 0:06:41 | |
conflicts. Turning this approach
into reality will be my key goal for | 0:06:41 | 0:06:48 | |
the modernising defence programme.
This programme will involve four | 0:06:48 | 0:06:51 | |
strands of work. The first three
will opt miez how the MOD is | 0:06:51 | 0:06:56 | |
organised and is operating. Identify
further constituencies and ways to | 0:06:56 | 0:07:01 | |
be more productive, including
through an aggressive programme of | 0:07:01 | 0:07:05 | |
business modernisation and improve
our performance on the commercial | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
and industrial issues. The fourth
strand will look at the capabilities | 0:07:09 | 0:07:15 | |
that defence requires to contribute
to our three national security | 0:07:15 | 0:07:18 | |
objectives today and in the future.
But most importantly, understanding | 0:07:18 | 0:07:23 | |
the threats and the ever changing
threats that this country faces. | 0:07:23 | 0:07:29 | |
I'm determined to use the
modernising defence programme to | 0:07:29 | 0:07:33 | |
ensure that defence can make its
full contribution to our national | 0:07:33 | 0:07:38 | |
security on a sustainable basis.
This is a programme of work that I | 0:07:38 | 0:07:42 | |
will speak to honourable and Right
Honourable members on a very regular | 0:07:42 | 0:07:47 | |
basis and I will keep this house
updates as decisions are made. | 0:07:47 | 0:07:51 | |
In the mean time, I would warmly
welcome any contributions, | 0:07:51 | 0:07:56 | |
honourable and Right Honourable
members would like to make. I and my | 0:07:56 | 0:08:01 | |
department will be consulting beyond
this House as this programme of work | 0:08:01 | 0:08:04 | |
gets under way in the weeks ahead.
Protecting our national security and | 0:08:04 | 0:08:10 | |
the safety of the British people,
both at home and abroad remains the | 0:08:10 | 0:08:14 | |
Government's first priority. And
make no mistake, the world is | 0:08:14 | 0:08:21 | |
becoming a more dangerous place. We
cannot afford to shy away from this | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
reality, nor can we take our
security for granted. But even more | 0:08:26 | 0:08:31 | |
than that, in a post Brexit world,
Britain must continue to champion | 0:08:31 | 0:08:36 | |
the global good. It must continue to
reach out to seize global | 0:08:36 | 0:08:41 | |
opportunities and deal with global
threats. Our history teaches us that | 0:08:41 | 0:08:46 | |
we can't have prosperity without
security, to protect that | 0:08:46 | 0:08:51 | |
prosperity, we must have Armed
Forces primed and ready to tackle | 0:08:51 | 0:08:55 | |
the challenges to come. | 0:08:55 | 0:08:58 | |
Thank you very much. I am sure I
speak for members across the House | 0:09:01 | 0:09:06 | |
in paying tribute to dedication of
our Armed Forces. Now, can I thank | 0:09:06 | 0:09:11 | |
the Secretary of State for his
statement and for advanced sight of | 0:09:11 | 0:09:13 | |
it? Can I respectfully day, Mr
Speaker that the way in which this | 0:09:13 | 0:09:18 | |
has been arranged be I the
Government has been shambolic from | 0:09:18 | 0:09:22 | |
start to finish. Utterly
discourteous to honourable and Right | 0:09:22 | 0:09:26 | |
Honourable members, some of whom may
be elsewhere today because of | 0:09:26 | 0:09:30 | |
explicit and repeated assurances by
the Government that this statement | 0:09:30 | 0:09:33 | |
would come on Monday. I am sure
you've noted, Mr Speaker, the | 0:09:33 | 0:09:38 | |
members first heard news of this
announcement when it was briefed out | 0:09:38 | 0:09:41 | |
to journ liteses on Tuesday
afternoon. Without so much as a | 0:09:41 | 0:09:44 | |
written statement in this place.
Then we had the complete farce of | 0:09:44 | 0:09:48 | |
yesterday when the Government
indicated it would make a statement, | 0:09:48 | 0:09:51 | |
then it was off, then it was on and
finally on again with a full update | 0:09:51 | 0:09:57 | |
promised on Monday. Clearly, Mr
Speaker, the new facility to combat | 0:09:57 | 0:10:03 | |
fake news is badly needed. We were
talking about 7o clock, I think, you | 0:10:03 | 0:10:10 | |
know.
Some people. | 0:10:10 | 0:10:11 | |
Right.
OK, let's... If I may proceed, OK. | 0:10:11 | 0:10:19 | |
It doesn't fill me with much
confidence, Mr Speaker, about the | 0:10:19 | 0:10:23 | |
conduct of the review. Its origins
have been so mired in chaos. Of | 0:10:23 | 0:10:28 | |
course we do welcome the decision to
separate out modernising defence | 0:10:28 | 0:10:32 | |
programme from the national security
review. But the decision to hold a | 0:10:32 | 0:10:36 | |
separate Defence Review must not
simply be an excuse to kick the | 0:10:36 | 0:10:41 | |
difficult decisions facing the
defence budget into the long grass. | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
This week we heard grave warnings
from the Chief of the General Staff | 0:10:46 | 0:10:49 | |
about the threats that this country
faces. And there's been growing | 0:10:49 | 0:10:54 | |
concern that the Government's savage
cuts to our nation's defences have | 0:10:54 | 0:10:58 | |
left us ill equipped to respond to
those threats. The many easture of | 0:10:58 | 0:11:03 | |
this review will be in the detail. I
hope the Secretary of State will be | 0:11:03 | 0:11:06 | |
able to give us some specific
answers today. So, turning to the | 0:11:06 | 0:11:10 | |
most important question - will the
review be fiscally neutral? We know | 0:11:10 | 0:11:15 | |
that much of the concern with the
NSCR was that it was being carried | 0:11:15 | 0:11:21 | |
out within the same funding envop
lol as the spend -- envelope as the | 0:11:21 | 0:11:27 | |
Spending Review. If it shows it is
necessary for the spending of our | 0:11:27 | 0:11:30 | |
nation, will the Government up to
the plate? Surely he must agree that | 0:11:30 | 0:11:35 | |
it would be pointless to have a
review that finds that we need to | 0:11:35 | 0:11:39 | |
have additional equipment or
increased personnel only for the | 0:11:39 | 0:11:42 | |
Government to ignore that
recommendation. You cannot do | 0:11:42 | 0:11:44 | |
security on the cheap, Mr Speaker
and it is high time the Government | 0:11:44 | 0:11:49 | |
recognised this. And yet, the
statement makes reference to further | 0:11:49 | 0:11:54 | |
efficiencies being carried out as
part of this review. Raising the | 0:11:54 | 0:11:58 | |
spectre of yet further cuts.
Crucially, how does this review fit | 0:11:58 | 0:12:03 | |
into the work being done by the
national security adviser? Are the | 0:12:03 | 0:12:07 | |
recommendations that he may have
made on defence, as part of the | 0:12:07 | 0:12:12 | |
NSCR, to be carried into this review
or is it a case of start from | 0:12:12 | 0:12:17 | |
strach. When it comes to threat
assessment will the programme and | 0:12:17 | 0:12:23 | |
NSCR have a common view of what the
most significant threats are? Will | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
the planned numbers or targets for
our Armed Forces change? If they do, | 0:12:27 | 0:12:35 | |
there will be on-going
restructuring? The will this review | 0:12:35 | 0:12:43 | |
potentially include the cancellation
or downscaling of procurement plans | 0:12:43 | 0:12:48 | |
sf if so how will industry be
involved in the process. What is the | 0:12:48 | 0:12:54 | |
planned timetable for this review?
When it will be published? It is | 0:12:54 | 0:12:59 | |
vital personnel are not kept in
limbo about their future but can get | 0:12:59 | 0:13:03 | |
answers. This review represents an
important opportunity for there to | 0:13:03 | 0:13:09 | |
be a step change in for the defence
policy. We all hope the Defence | 0:13:09 | 0:13:12 | |
Secretary will use this chance to
deliver real investment in our | 0:13:12 | 0:13:16 | |
nation's defences and the resources
that our Armed Forces so badly need. | 0:13:16 | 0:13:23 | |
I take on board the honourable
lady's comments about the | 0:13:28 | 0:13:32 | |
organisational future statements and
commit to improve on that, Mr | 0:13:32 | 0:13:37 | |
Speaker. I also thank the honourable
lady's of this review and the fact | 0:13:37 | 0:13:43 | |
we have brought it about. She
mentioned the chief of the General | 0:13:43 | 0:13:48 | |
staff and his comments. I think it
is important that the people that | 0:13:48 | 0:13:54 | |
need our Armed Forces actually do
have a voice and do speak about the | 0:13:54 | 0:13:59 | |
threats this country faces. We have
spent 20 years where we felt the | 0:13:59 | 0:14:07 | |
threats this country faces have
maybe disappeared and actually we've | 0:14:07 | 0:14:11 | |
got used to not facing peer enemies.
That isn't the world we live in | 0:14:11 | 0:14:16 | |
today and I think it would be
irresponsible if we didn't talk | 0:14:16 | 0:14:20 | |
about those threats because the
British people do have to understand | 0:14:20 | 0:14:24 | |
the challenges that our nation faces
and what the Armed Forces are facing | 0:14:24 | 0:14:29 | |
on dealing with every single day.
The honourable lady asked the | 0:14:29 | 0:14:37 | |
question, is this aiming to be
fiscally neutral as a review and no | 0:14:37 | 0:14:41 | |
it isn't, it is looking at how we
can actually get the Armed Forces | 0:14:41 | 0:14:46 | |
that we need in order to deal with
the threats we face. The Government | 0:14:46 | 0:14:53 | |
is absolutely committed to
delivering the very best Armed | 0:14:53 | 0:14:57 | |
Forces and that is what so many
members on this side of the House | 0:14:57 | 0:15:01 | |
and on the opposite side of the
House are equally committed to, and | 0:15:01 | 0:15:06 | |
I very much hope you will continue
to support the Ministry of Defence | 0:15:06 | 0:15:10 | |
and the Armed Forces in the work we
do to get the very best Armed Forces | 0:15:10 | 0:15:14 | |
for future generations. And she asks
as to when it will be published. My | 0:15:14 | 0:15:21 | |
aim is to publish it in the summer.
My hope is we will be publishing it | 0:15:21 | 0:15:27 | |
before the House rises for summer
recess. But I really would emphasise | 0:15:27 | 0:15:31 | |
the fact we do want to hear people's
views. The Armed Forces always need | 0:15:31 | 0:15:38 | |
to change and evolve. She asked the
question as to why I say about | 0:15:38 | 0:15:43 | |
efficiencies. I think every
organisation, every organisation in | 0:15:43 | 0:15:48 | |
Government, should always be looking
at how they can do things better and | 0:15:48 | 0:15:52 | |
do things more efficiently I don't
apologise for saying, because I | 0:15:52 | 0:16:03 | |
think actually the Ministry of
Defence can actually do things | 0:16:03 | 0:16:05 | |
better. I want them to do better, I
want them to be able to drive | 0:16:05 | 0:16:08 | |
efficiencies so that money can be
used in order to be put into the | 0:16:08 | 0:16:11 | |
front line for our Armed Forces.
Let's not be hesitant in coming | 0:16:11 | 0:16:13 | |
forward with ideas and if the
honourable lady has some ideas as to | 0:16:13 | 0:16:17 | |
house these -- how she thinks this
can be done better I will be always | 0:16:17 | 0:16:24 | |
willing to listen to them, but once
again I thank her for welcoming the | 0:16:24 | 0:16:28 | |
review and look forward to working
with her and all members of the | 0:16:28 | 0:16:32 | |
House to try to make sure this
review very much works for our Armed | 0:16:32 | 0:16:36 | |
Forces. Mr Speaker, can I welcome my
right honourable friend obviously to | 0:16:36 | 0:16:44 | |
his place. Can I say I have sat
sadly in this place for 25 years, | 0:16:44 | 0:16:50 | |
and every single government brings
forward another statement about | 0:16:50 | 0:16:54 | |
modernising the Armed Forces and
invariably ends up spending less | 0:16:54 | 0:16:57 | |
money on the Armed Forces. I may
urge my right honourable friend in | 0:16:57 | 0:17:03 | |
the course of his conduct, can he
please learn from some of the | 0:17:03 | 0:17:07 | |
previous mistakes which have been
made such as when we went into the | 0:17:07 | 0:17:12 | |
Bosnia area and have a just-in-time
approach which ended up with tanks | 0:17:12 | 0:17:22 | |
left by the side of the road because
we could not get to them in time. | 0:17:22 | 0:17:25 | |
Can we make sure he does not repeat
the nonsense of when people say | 0:17:25 | 0:17:32 | |
modernise they actually mean cut. We
will try to learn as many lessons as | 0:17:32 | 0:17:37 | |
possible from history and I know my
right honourable friend has a lot of | 0:17:37 | 0:17:42 | |
personal experience of the Armed
Forces and very much welcome his | 0:17:42 | 0:17:45 | |
contribution in terms of the review
going forward. We want to have a | 0:17:45 | 0:17:50 | |
very best Armed Forces we can have.
This isn't aimed as being some | 0:17:50 | 0:17:56 | |
operation to take money off the
Armed Forces, it's making sure we | 0:17:56 | 0:18:00 | |
have the Armed Forces and give them
the support we need and the | 0:18:00 | 0:18:04 | |
recognition they do one of the most
amazing jobs for our country, and | 0:18:04 | 0:18:10 | |
that is what we hope to achieve as
part of this review. Can I thank the | 0:18:10 | 0:18:17 | |
Defence Secretary for his statement
in advance but the public must | 0:18:17 | 0:18:21 | |
understand the farce we went through
yesterday to get this place. The | 0:18:21 | 0:18:26 | |
statement was on, it was off, maybe
on, definitely off, happening next | 0:18:26 | 0:18:32 | |
week, and then we learn it's
happening today so better late than | 0:18:32 | 0:18:37 | |
never I suppose. Can I also say to
the Secretary of State that we must | 0:18:37 | 0:18:42 | |
stop reading about these reviews in
the Times newspaper. He must | 0:18:42 | 0:18:46 | |
endeavour to come to the House more
often rather than allowing leaks to | 0:18:46 | 0:18:51 | |
newspapers. I realise he's here now
but members know exactly what I'm | 0:18:51 | 0:19:02 | |
referring to. Can I ask a couple of
questions on his statement. In | 0:19:02 | 0:19:05 | |
relation to the announcement this
week on his new disinformation unit, | 0:19:05 | 0:19:07 | |
can he expand on that? If it is not
to be fiscally neutral, can he | 0:19:07 | 0:19:13 | |
confirmed that as a departure from
what Sir Mark told the Defence | 0:19:13 | 0:19:19 | |
Select Committee in a letter when he
said it was fiscally neutral, and if | 0:19:19 | 0:19:23 | |
not can members of the Armed Forces
expect to pay rise when his review | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
concludes? Can he tell us how the
review will deal with Russian | 0:19:27 | 0:19:33 | |
activity in and over the North
Atlantic. Will he agreed to meet | 0:19:33 | 0:19:37 | |
with myself to discuss that in
particular? And will he commit to | 0:19:37 | 0:19:41 | |
when the reporting comes in the
summer he will handle this a lot | 0:19:41 | 0:19:45 | |
better than when he handled it
yesterday. The honourable gentleman | 0:19:45 | 0:19:50 | |
seems to think the British public
are really interested as to the | 0:19:50 | 0:19:57 | |
tabling of when statements are. I
think the British people are really | 0:19:57 | 0:20:00 | |
in trusted in the fact this
Government is acting to make sure | 0:20:00 | 0:20:05 | |
our Armed Forces have the resources
they need. That is what they are | 0:20:05 | 0:20:10 | |
interested in. What we are aiming to
do in terms of this review, it isn't | 0:20:10 | 0:20:14 | |
aiming to be fiscally neutral, which
is why we brought it out of the | 0:20:14 | 0:20:20 | |
capability review which was a
separate review mechanism that Sir | 0:20:20 | 0:20:26 | |
Mark, who is doing an amazing job in
terms of work on that, had outlined | 0:20:26 | 0:20:31 | |
it would be fiscally neutral but
this has been something that has led | 0:20:31 | 0:20:35 | |
on from the national security and
capability review. I would be more | 0:20:35 | 0:20:39 | |
than happy to meet with him and
discuss some of the wider issues and | 0:20:39 | 0:20:44 | |
concerns he has in the North
Atlantic. Is my right honourable | 0:20:44 | 0:20:49 | |
friend where he will have support of
the whole House if he manages to | 0:20:49 | 0:20:53 | |
secure additional funding for the
precious this year and next year but | 0:20:53 | 0:20:57 | |
then put the defence budget onto a
more sustainable footing that allows | 0:20:57 | 0:21:02 | |
our Armed Forces to tackle the
increased threats they face without | 0:21:02 | 0:21:06 | |
demoralising rumours of deep cuts.
The words here are interesting and | 0:21:06 | 0:21:13 | |
important, but what really matters
in the end is money, more money. I'd | 0:21:13 | 0:21:19 | |
like to thank my right honourable
friend for all he has done for our | 0:21:19 | 0:21:24 | |
Armed Forces. Without his work and
campaigning, we wouldn't have been | 0:21:24 | 0:21:29 | |
in a situation where we would have
been having a rising budget today | 0:21:29 | 0:21:34 | |
with the extra £4 billion worth of
extra resources committed to our | 0:21:34 | 0:21:37 | |
Armed Forces by the Government. I
will certainly take on board his | 0:21:37 | 0:21:44 | |
comments and I notice his article in
the Telegraph today, which I thought | 0:21:44 | 0:21:48 | |
set absolutely the right tone in
terms of approach of how we take | 0:21:48 | 0:21:52 | |
things forward. I hope I have the
opportunity to sit down with him to | 0:21:52 | 0:21:58 | |
discuss how we get the balance right
and make sure we achieve everything | 0:21:58 | 0:22:03 | |
that he has set out and built on for
our Armed Forces over the past four | 0:22:03 | 0:22:08 | |
years. We do need to look at getting
additional resources for Armed | 0:22:08 | 0:22:16 | |
Forces so that they have the
capability to protect and truly | 0:22:16 | 0:22:23 | |
defend Britain's global interests,
both near and far. I have to save | 0:22:23 | 0:22:32 | |
that my reaction to this much
heralded and hokey Cokie statement | 0:22:32 | 0:22:37 | |
is, is that it? Because the hands
were very clearly the hands of | 0:22:37 | 0:22:45 | |
Hammond. Will he therefore confirm
whether it is still fiscally | 0:22:45 | 0:22:55 | |
neutral? Why does it not say
increases in security expenditure | 0:22:55 | 0:22:58 | |
will not be at the expense of
defence. Why won't he confirmed the | 0:22:58 | 0:23:08 | |
winners are in fact the Treasury and
their view that there are no votes | 0:23:08 | 0:23:12 | |
in defence. And in spite of his warm
words, well the real losers be our | 0:23:12 | 0:23:19 | |
superb troops, excellent defence
industry and defence of our nation? | 0:23:19 | 0:23:24 | |
I do apologise if the right
honourable gentleman didn't hear me | 0:23:24 | 0:23:28 | |
but the aim is not for this
programme to be... You know, there | 0:23:28 | 0:23:33 | |
is into constraint on it being
fiscally neutral. We are looking at | 0:23:33 | 0:23:37 | |
what we can do and how we can
deliver it to the best of ability. | 0:23:37 | 0:23:40 | |
I'm grateful to the Chancellor and
Prime Minister for the work they | 0:23:40 | 0:23:44 | |
have done in terms of working
towards the position where we can | 0:23:44 | 0:23:49 | |
put forward this programme and we
have the opportunity to look at the | 0:23:49 | 0:23:53 | |
needs of our defence industry and
establishment. I have every sympathy | 0:23:53 | 0:24:01 | |
with the Secretary of State in terms
of over the last two days when this | 0:24:01 | 0:24:05 | |
was going to be announced, the old
army motto knickers on knickers off | 0:24:05 | 0:24:11 | |
that many of us are familiar with.
Can I ask the Secretary of State, a | 0:24:11 | 0:24:19 | |
number of colleagues including the
right honourable member for | 0:24:19 | 0:24:22 | |
Chingford have pointed out the
crucial matter of money. 20 years | 0:24:22 | 0:24:26 | |
ago the then Labour government
carried out an enormous Strategic | 0:24:26 | 0:24:31 | |
Defence Review which on the whole
was well received but it was never | 0:24:31 | 0:24:35 | |
funded. Has the Secretary of State
got any confidence at all that his | 0:24:35 | 0:24:40 | |
recommendations will actually be
funded by the Treasury? The answer | 0:24:40 | 0:24:50 | |
is yes, I very much hope the
recommendations of the programme | 0:24:50 | 0:24:53 | |
will be listened to very closely by
the Prime Minister and the | 0:24:53 | 0:24:59 | |
Chancellor, and the whole aim of
doing this programme is to give the | 0:24:59 | 0:25:04 | |
Armed Forces the opportunity to set
clearly out a case of resources we | 0:25:04 | 0:25:08 | |
need going forward. While the last
48 hours may have been somewhat | 0:25:08 | 0:25:18 | |
chaotic and more concerned about
seeing rumour and speculation | 0:25:18 | 0:25:24 | |
undermining not only our global
reputation because of the confidence | 0:25:24 | 0:25:27 | |
of our serving personnel about their
futures. Rumours about the Parachute | 0:25:27 | 0:25:31 | |
Regiment merging with the Royal
Marines, all of this has been | 0:25:31 | 0:25:36 | |
nonsense. Can you give assurances we
will stop seeing these rumours on | 0:25:36 | 0:25:40 | |
the front page of the daily Times
and that we will be informed about | 0:25:40 | 0:25:45 | |
what's happening? And more
importantly what's happening with | 0:25:45 | 0:25:49 | |
the review, where is the threat
assessment coming from? In terms of | 0:25:49 | 0:25:55 | |
modernisation, can you give
assurances of what the terms of | 0:25:55 | 0:25:58 | |
references will be and when we will
see them? This I think there's been | 0:25:58 | 0:26:03 | |
an awful lot of speculation over the
past few months and virtually all of | 0:26:03 | 0:26:07 | |
it has been proved to be completely
untrue. I continue to keep the House | 0:26:07 | 0:26:14 | |
updated, as I promised to in my
statements, and I will be doing | 0:26:14 | 0:26:19 | |
everything I can to make sure the
Armed Forces as well as this House | 0:26:19 | 0:26:23 | |
are listened to as we developed the
programme going forward. Going | 0:26:23 | 0:26:29 | |
forward, things like cyber, Intel
and asymmetric warfare and drones | 0:26:29 | 0:26:36 | |
will touch both upon security and
defence. How is he going to | 0:26:36 | 0:26:41 | |
delineate the review from the one he
has announced and will lead? We will | 0:26:41 | 0:26:48 | |
be continuously working very close
with Sir Mark and all the work | 0:26:48 | 0:26:55 | |
that's being done. It would be crazy
to do that. What the review | 0:26:55 | 0:27:03 | |
identified was that actually more
work needed to be done in terms of | 0:27:03 | 0:27:08 | |
the Ministry of Defence budget
because if it was going to be | 0:27:08 | 0:27:11 | |
fiscally neutral, that wouldn't have
been possible to be able to deliver | 0:27:11 | 0:27:15 | |
in that way. We will be working
closely with the Cabinet office to | 0:27:15 | 0:27:18 | |
make sure that everything that we
have done sits within the priorities | 0:27:18 | 0:27:25 | |
of the National Security Council. In
terms of cyber attack, this is | 0:27:25 | 0:27:30 | |
something the Ministry of Defence
itself leads on so all the work | 0:27:30 | 0:27:35 | |
across all those realms are done
incomplete conjuncture with all the | 0:27:35 | 0:27:41 | |
parts of our national security
infrastructure, whether that is | 0:27:41 | 0:27:47 | |
GCHQ, MI5 and MI6, and that is
something that is essential going | 0:27:47 | 0:27:50 | |
forward. | 0:27:50 | 0:27:53 | |
. I think there'll be merit in him
coming to the joint strategy | 0:27:55 | 0:27:59 | |
committee so we can dig into the
detail of his announcement more | 0:27:59 | 0:28:02 | |
thoroughly. I wonder if he agrees
many ethat quantity has a quality | 0:28:02 | 0:28:07 | |
all of its own? And then given the
threats we know we face, any further | 0:28:07 | 0:28:12 | |
reduction in Armed Forces personnel
would be extremely unwise. | 0:28:12 | 0:28:18 | |
Well, we have made a commitment in
terms of the size of our armed | 0:28:19 | 0:28:23 | |
forced. I think there is a very
strong argument that you don't just | 0:28:23 | 0:28:28 | |
need to have forces that have a very
best equipment but you also need to | 0:28:28 | 0:28:33 | |
have mass in order to be able to
deploy. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Nick | 0:28:33 | 0:28:42 | |
Carter stated the Russians could go
to war far faster than we thought | 0:28:42 | 0:28:47 | |
previously. Could I ask my Right
Honourable friend if he'll allow | 0:28:47 | 0:28:52 | |
consideration and support for
leaving say a brigade in Germany so | 0:28:52 | 0:28:56 | |
we are closer to where the battles
may well be? We're very much looking | 0:28:56 | 0:29:02 | |
forward at that option because we
need to ensure that forces that are | 0:29:02 | 0:29:08 | |
either further east have the ability
to be properly resupplied and | 0:29:08 | 0:29:12 | |
supported. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I
think the whole House will | 0:29:12 | 0:29:18 | |
congratulate him for taking this
review out of the straitjacket. But | 0:29:18 | 0:29:25 | |
is there a risk that the submarine
programme, in particular funding for | 0:29:25 | 0:29:32 | |
Atut Boat 7, which has not been
priced, could be rediverted by this | 0:29:32 | 0:29:37 | |
review? It's too early in the
process to be able to sort of | 0:29:37 | 0:29:43 | |
comment on that. I will look at the
issue he's raised and I will come | 0:29:43 | 0:29:47 | |
back to him. The whole point of the
programme is obviously to look at | 0:29:47 | 0:29:51 | |
things afresh. But we have commented
quite regularly about the increasing | 0:29:51 | 0:29:57 | |
threat that we are facing in the
North Atlantic and this is something | 0:29:57 | 0:30:00 | |
raised by members and it is about
making sure that we have the | 0:30:00 | 0:30:06 | |
submarines that are able to operate
and defend the Norfolk land and I | 0:30:06 | 0:30:11 | |
will come back to that.
Can I thank my Right Honourable | 0:30:11 | 0:30:16 | |
friend for delivering good news to
the House and congratulate him for | 0:30:16 | 0:30:22 | |
leveraging the somewhat unexpected
and suddenness of his appointment to | 0:30:22 | 0:30:27 | |
advantage for Her Majesty's Armed
Forces and for the Ministry of | 0:30:27 | 0:30:31 | |
Defence and leveraging control over
the Defence Review for the first | 0:30:31 | 0:30:33 | |
time back into the department since
2010 represents a return of san | 0:30:33 | 0:30:39 | |
knitty because the present Defence
Review is proving undeliverable and | 0:30:39 | 0:30:42 | |
showing what will happen if it is
divorced from the department to who | 0:30:42 | 0:30:49 | |
has to deliver it? I think my
honourable friend makes an important | 0:30:49 | 0:30:54 | |
point in terms of this programme
being led by the Ministry of | 0:30:54 | 0:30:58 | |
Defence. We need the Armed Forces,
ones who are leading this programme, | 0:30:58 | 0:31:01 | |
as they have the greatest
understanding of the needs and the | 0:31:01 | 0:31:04 | |
support that they will require in
order to be most effective going | 0:31:04 | 0:31:09 | |
forward.
Mr Speaker, we all welcome the | 0:31:09 | 0:31:17 | |
impending completion of our new
aircraft carriers. However, there is | 0:31:17 | 0:31:20 | |
some indication that we have
insufficient Royal Navy surface | 0:31:20 | 0:31:26 | |
warships, frigates and destroyers to
provide a screen for these mag | 0:31:26 | 0:31:33 | |
nificent fleet in a combat
situation. How is this sorted out? | 0:31:33 | 0:31:38 | |
That is why my predecessor made it
clear we will invest in the tip 30 | 0:31:38 | 0:31:45 | |
and type 21 frigates to make sure we
have the protective screen all | 0:31:45 | 0:31:50 | |
around those magnificent aircraft
carriers that everyone in the United | 0:31:50 | 0:31:54 | |
Kingdom is so very proud of. I
welcome the Secretary of State's | 0:31:54 | 0:31:57 | |
statement and the upbeat nature of
its tone. Will he confirm though | 0:31:57 | 0:32:01 | |
that we've had a lot of discussion
around threats in the North Atlantic | 0:32:01 | 0:32:05 | |
and Russia. Will he confirm he will
look at the threat around Suez, as | 0:32:05 | 0:32:10 | |
with Brexit more of our trade will
depend on that part of the world. We | 0:32:10 | 0:32:18 | |
are looking at how to improve the
prosperity of the nation. When we | 0:32:18 | 0:32:22 | |
talk about global Britain, when we
talk about international diplomacy, | 0:32:22 | 0:32:29 | |
actually our Armed Forces are
sometimes, virtually always, the | 0:32:29 | 0:32:34 | |
best diplomats because actually when
they see British forces, whether it | 0:32:34 | 0:32:38 | |
is for British Army, the Royal Air
Force or the Royal Navy it is a real | 0:32:38 | 0:32:44 | |
symbol of Britain's reach. A symbol
of what we can achieve in the world | 0:32:44 | 0:32:48 | |
and we will absolutely, certainly,
be looking far beyond Suez. | 0:32:48 | 0:32:55 | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Defence
Secretary will know that there's | 0:32:56 | 0:32:59 | |
nobody in the House today who
believes our defence forces are | 0:32:59 | 0:33:03 | |
anything other than underfunded.
With that background, if he's going | 0:33:03 | 0:33:08 | |
to have the meaningful conversation
with the nation that he's indicated | 0:33:08 | 0:33:11 | |
in his statement, will he give very
early consideration to publishing | 0:33:11 | 0:33:16 | |
the terms of reference and the
perception of the changing strategic | 0:33:16 | 0:33:20 | |
threat that this nation of ours
faces? Well, the national security | 0:33:20 | 0:33:26 | |
and capability review will be
looking at coming forward with a | 0:33:26 | 0:33:32 | |
document explaining as to how it
sees the sort of threats and how we | 0:33:32 | 0:33:37 | |
respond to it. That will be very
much in the public domain and what | 0:33:37 | 0:33:41 | |
we need to be seeing is having that
more active debate. That's certainly | 0:33:41 | 0:33:45 | |
something that I think we all
encourage because that threat, those | 0:33:45 | 0:33:50 | |
threats that we are facing are
developing so very, very quickly. | 0:33:50 | 0:33:55 | |
Just five years ago, Russia was not
seen as a real threat to our | 0:33:55 | 0:33:58 | |
national security. We have to start
talking about it. If we don't talk | 0:33:58 | 0:34:02 | |
about it, people don't understand
those threats. I am certainly | 0:34:02 | 0:34:06 | |
encouraging that debate going
forward. | 0:34:06 | 0:34:08 | |
Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given the
nature of the increasing tensions | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
with Russia, as my Right Honourable
friend has alluded to, will he give | 0:34:12 | 0:34:18 | |
me an assurance that the size and
frequentsy of British deployments to | 0:34:18 | 0:34:23 | |
Poland will increase under this
review? So, just before Christmas I | 0:34:23 | 0:34:31 | |
had the opportunity of visiting our
troops in Poland, who are stationed | 0:34:31 | 0:34:34 | |
there. At the moment, we're not
currently looking at increasing the | 0:34:34 | 0:34:39 | |
number of troops in Poland, but we
always are talking very closely with | 0:34:39 | 0:34:44 | |
our Nato partners. That I are on a
six-month rotation, which seems to | 0:34:44 | 0:34:48 | |
suit matters currently. But we will
keep that matter under review. | 0:34:48 | 0:34:58 | |
Aren't the wild and petulant
infantism by the statements of our | 0:34:58 | 0:35:02 | |
world leaders a great threat to the
security of the world? Doesn't | 0:35:02 | 0:35:07 | |
history tell thaws a greatest
accelerant to war is an expectation | 0:35:07 | 0:35:11 | |
of war that we're fuelling at the
moment? Wouldn't it be better for us | 0:35:11 | 0:35:16 | |
to look at the great work we could
do in Bangladesh, on the border | 0:35:16 | 0:35:20 | |
there now, in peacekeeping, rather
than thinking of war-making? We, as | 0:35:20 | 0:35:26 | |
a nation, are one of the most active
nations in making sure that we bring | 0:35:26 | 0:35:33 | |
peace right across the globe. We
have a great history and we should | 0:35:33 | 0:35:36 | |
take great pride in everything we
have achieved in the past. I have no | 0:35:36 | 0:35:39 | |
doubt we'll achieve in the future.
But we have to understand that | 0:35:39 | 0:35:45 | |
people who are threatening Britain
don't respect weakness. They do not | 0:35:45 | 0:35:51 | |
respect the fact that we, if we were
to disarm f we were to get rid of a | 0:35:51 | 0:35:56 | |
nuclear deterrent, if we were to get
rid or diminish our conventional | 0:35:56 | 0:36:02 | |
forces that would make them no less
likely to attack us and we have to | 0:36:02 | 0:36:07 | |
have an effective deterrent and that
deterrent is not just nuclear. It is | 0:36:07 | 0:36:12 | |
a conventional deterrent as well.
Mr Speaker, innovative technology | 0:36:12 | 0:36:19 | |
firms in the SSE sector make sure
our Armed Forces have access to the | 0:36:19 | 0:36:25 | |
best possibility equipment. Will he
make sure as this rolls forward will | 0:36:25 | 0:36:29 | |
he make sure it is considered? I
know my honourable friend has done a | 0:36:29 | 0:36:34 | |
lot of work on the fourth Industrial
Revolution. It is how we can harness | 0:36:34 | 0:36:39 | |
those new technologies to give our
military the constant advantage | 0:36:39 | 0:36:42 | |
going forward and the battlefield is
changing incredibly rapidly. If we | 0:36:42 | 0:36:48 | |
can work with small and medium-sized
businesses, yes, we need to do it | 0:36:48 | 0:36:52 | |
more. Sometimes the most innovative
ideas are come from those | 0:36:52 | 0:36:56 | |
businesses. I appreciated the time
he took to speak with me of some of | 0:36:56 | 0:37:01 | |
the work in his constituency of
Havant and looking forward to | 0:37:01 | 0:37:06 | |
working with him further for that. I
welcome the review that postpones | 0:37:06 | 0:37:13 | |
defence cuts T longer uncertainty
goes on it is hit more. Can Plymouth | 0:37:13 | 0:37:24 | |
be reassured that it will not be cut
in the cuts announced. What we have | 0:37:24 | 0:37:29 | |
outlined in terms of the programme
is we need to do this quickly. We | 0:37:29 | 0:37:32 | |
have very conscious of the concerns
that people have who serve in the | 0:37:32 | 0:37:36 | |
Armed Forces that is why we are
committed to make sure we will | 0:37:36 | 0:37:40 | |
report back before the summer
recess. What the Secretary of State | 0:37:40 | 0:37:43 | |
may not realise is that although
Derby is as far as fr the sea as you | 0:37:43 | 0:37:47 | |
can get we have a very strong
relationship with a sub mariner | 0:37:47 | 0:37:51 | |
associations and they are the unsung
heroes. They are under the sea for | 0:37:51 | 0:37:55 | |
months at a time. Can we ensure they
are, an essential part of this | 0:37:55 | 0:38:01 | |
review and they are looked after?
Don't forget that the submarines are | 0:38:01 | 0:38:10 | |
powered by Rolls-Royce engines from
Derby? And very fine engines they R | 0:38:10 | 0:38:15 | |
and we're approaching almost 50
years that we've had a continuous | 0:38:15 | 0:38:19 | |
at-sea nuclear deterrent. And the
wo, that the sub mariner force | 0:38:19 | 0:38:25 | |
inevitably goes unnoticed. That is
the aim. But what they do in terms | 0:38:25 | 0:38:31 | |
of actually protecting this country
is truly magnificent and without | 0:38:31 | 0:38:36 | |
their work, without their
commitment, without this, without | 0:38:36 | 0:38:38 | |
their dedication the country would
be a lot less safe. | 0:38:38 | 0:38:43 | |
I think this is the first chance
I've had to welcome my opposite | 0:38:43 | 0:38:49 | |
number to the dispatch point. At
which point would Trident become a | 0:38:49 | 0:38:53 | |
burden on the defence subject or the
budget of the country as a whole if | 0:38:53 | 0:38:57 | |
it takes up a greater proportion,
far from keeping us safe it puts | 0:38:57 | 0:39:04 | |
pressure on conventional forces and
can put pressure in harms way? I | 0:39:04 | 0:39:10 | |
dearly miss my former honourable
counterpart in terms of the work we | 0:39:10 | 0:39:15 | |
did as chief whips together. The
nuclear, continuous at sea deterrent | 0:39:15 | 0:39:21 | |
is a vital part of our defence. But
we can never see it in isolation. So | 0:39:21 | 0:39:26 | |
often we talk about continuous at
sea nuclear deterrents and not | 0:39:26 | 0:39:32 | |
without a recognition that the
deterrents is the whole spectrum | 0:39:32 | 0:39:37 | |
from infantry, whether it is royal
naval frigates, destroyers, whether | 0:39:37 | 0:39:43 | |
it is RAF helicopters or fast jets
and the British Army itself. So, it | 0:39:43 | 0:39:50 | |
is an integral part of it. But if we
got rid of the continuous at sea | 0:39:50 | 0:39:58 | |
nuclear deterrent, we would make
Britain less safe and we have to | 0:39:58 | 0:40:01 | |
have it. And I would have thought
it's something the honourable | 0:40:01 | 0:40:05 | |
gentleman would always welcome
because it brings an awful lot of | 0:40:05 | 0:40:09 | |
wealth, prosperity and an awful lot
of jobs to Scotland. On this side | 0:40:09 | 0:40:13 | |
we're very proud of that. Mr
Speaker, I welcome the secretary of | 0:40:13 | 0:40:18 | |
state's statement. And would he
agree that flexibility in order to | 0:40:18 | 0:40:22 | |
support our allies when we required
is vital? I want to highlight the | 0:40:22 | 0:40:27 | |
flexibility of the ma reaps and I
have 4th commando in my constituency | 0:40:27 | 0:40:32 | |
not in terms of security but in
terms of helping the community in | 0:40:32 | 0:40:37 | |
times of floods and hurry tans, for
example. | 0:40:37 | 0:40:41 | |
-- hurricanes, for example. I know
note my honourable friend's comments | 0:40:41 | 0:40:48 | |
about the flexibility of the Royal
Marines. She's right. It is the | 0:40:48 | 0:40:52 | |
parachute reg mentd, it is every
part of -- regiment. It is every | 0:40:52 | 0:40:58 | |
part, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air
Force and the auxiliary. We saw in | 0:40:58 | 0:41:02 | |
the Caribbean how they stepped up at
a moment's notice to deliver relief | 0:41:02 | 0:41:06 | |
to tens of thousands of people. We
see it every year. Where there is | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
tragedy that hits different parts of
the United Kingdom, how they step up | 0:41:10 | 0:41:14 | |
to the. We are very proud of that
and there is an essential part of | 0:41:14 | 0:41:18 | |
what they do and will continue to
do. | 0:41:18 | 0:41:23 | |
My constituents have raised with me
the important of retain in this | 0:41:23 | 0:41:29 | |
country the capability to produce
the equipment we need for our Armed | 0:41:29 | 0:41:32 | |
Forces. I wonder as the new
Secretary of State what his views | 0:41:32 | 0:41:35 | |
were on the importance and what
importance he puts on that? I put a | 0:41:35 | 0:41:41 | |
great importance on it. I want to
see whenever we can do to purchase | 0:41:41 | 0:41:47 | |
products that are manufactured here
in Britain. But going forward, we | 0:41:47 | 0:41:51 | |
also have to look at how we can
manufacture products that we can't | 0:41:51 | 0:41:55 | |
just sell to the Ministry of
Defence, but we can also sell right | 0:41:55 | 0:42:00 | |
across the globe. Because actually
the more we have in terms of the | 0:42:00 | 0:42:06 | |
product portfolio that we can sell
into the Gulf, to Europe, the United | 0:42:06 | 0:42:11 | |
States, the better for British
industry. | 0:42:11 | 0:42:14 | |
Will the Secretary of State make
certain as part of his review that | 0:42:14 | 0:42:19 | |
the innovation of British
enterprises ensures we have the most | 0:42:19 | 0:42:22 | |
modern weapons for our tanks, ships
and planes? Absolutely. | 0:42:22 | 0:42:27 | |
This is where we can have the
opportunity to embrace new | 0:42:30 | 0:42:35 | |
technology, make our Armed Forces
more effective in terms of what they | 0:42:35 | 0:42:39 | |
can do. If we stand still, our
enemies will overtake us and we have | 0:42:39 | 0:42:44 | |
some of the most innovative
companies in this country, we have | 0:42:44 | 0:42:47 | |
got to make use of that innovation.
Companies that sometimes have never | 0:42:47 | 0:42:52 | |
before sold to defence. I had hoped
to ask the Secretary of State for | 0:42:52 | 0:43:00 | |
reassurance for the service
personnel under thousands of people | 0:43:00 | 0:43:04 | |
across Lancashire working in the
defence industry, however I am aware | 0:43:04 | 0:43:06 | |
that the statement was expected on
Monday. Can I ask the Secretary of | 0:43:06 | 0:43:12 | |
State, will his still be open to
colleagues who are not in the | 0:43:12 | 0:43:16 | |
Chamber today because of the nature
of the statement and will he meet | 0:43:16 | 0:43:19 | |
with them? I will always meet with
them. Jobs in Lancashire is | 0:43:19 | 0:43:25 | |
something very close to my heart and
I was very proud to be able to sign | 0:43:25 | 0:43:29 | |
a deal with the Qataris for the
largest Cabinet typhoon order in | 0:43:29 | 0:43:36 | |
over a decade. We need to do more of
that. -- Typhoon order. I look | 0:43:36 | 0:43:45 | |
forward to working with members on
both sides of the house to make sure | 0:43:45 | 0:43:49 | |
British defence industry continues
to thrive and prosper going forward. | 0:43:49 | 0:43:54 | |
I congratulate my right honourable
friend on his statement. What does | 0:43:54 | 0:43:59 | |
he believe the impact of the outcome
of the review will be on the vital | 0:43:59 | 0:44:04 | |
issues of recruitment and retention?
I do not want to prejudge the whole | 0:44:04 | 0:44:13 | |
programme just yet. But what we do
need to do is to give people the | 0:44:13 | 0:44:19 | |
real confidence and belief that the
Armed Forces are treasured and | 0:44:19 | 0:44:24 | |
valued by everyone in this country,
if they join the army, the Navy, | 0:44:24 | 0:44:30 | |
that air force, they are not just
going to have a great career, they | 0:44:30 | 0:44:34 | |
will have the best possible career
anyone could ever have. I hope this | 0:44:34 | 0:44:38 | |
programme can give them the
confidence that a career in our | 0:44:38 | 0:44:42 | |
Armed Forces is the best they can
pursue. It is great to see you back | 0:44:42 | 0:44:49 | |
in the chair. I believe the
Secretary of State... The danger of | 0:44:49 | 0:44:55 | |
continually augmenting our threat
assessments, losing capacity, | 0:44:55 | 0:44:58 | |
finding old threats renewed. In
looking to modernise, can I urge the | 0:44:58 | 0:45:05 | |
Secretary of State to look closely
at Northern Ireland, recognise a | 0:45:05 | 0:45:09 | |
constituency like mine has the UK's
largest drydock, suitable for Queen | 0:45:09 | 0:45:14 | |
Elizabeth class carriers, but also
the latest cyber security centres | 0:45:14 | 0:45:20 | |
within the city? Northern Ireland
has never been found wanting when it | 0:45:20 | 0:45:23 | |
comes to personal or procurement
opportunities. We owe a great debt | 0:45:23 | 0:45:30 | |
to Northern Ireland. It contributes
7% of our Armed Forces, far greater | 0:45:30 | 0:45:37 | |
than its actual population, both in
terms of the regular army and the | 0:45:37 | 0:45:41 | |
reserves. I will very much have
Northern Ireland at the forefront. | 0:45:41 | 0:45:47 | |
I'm not sure if the Democratic
Unionist Party would like to suggest | 0:45:47 | 0:45:52 | |
a third aircraft carrier to be built
there... But it is absolutely vital | 0:45:52 | 0:45:59 | |
to continue to work together and
make sure that part of the UK that | 0:45:59 | 0:46:06 | |
has continuously played such an
important role in our national | 0:46:06 | 0:46:09 | |
defence continues to do so going
forward. I welcome the statement. | 0:46:09 | 0:46:14 | |
The cyber threat we face today is
novel and unprecedented and I | 0:46:14 | 0:46:19 | |
welcome his presence in the
statement but it is not simply about | 0:46:19 | 0:46:24 | |
state and non-state actors hacking
infrastructure and businesses, it is | 0:46:24 | 0:46:27 | |
about the spread of disinformation.
I wonder if he could set a little | 0:46:27 | 0:46:32 | |
bit about what consideration the
review will give to that new way of | 0:46:32 | 0:46:35 | |
reaching directly to our citizens.
Well, the national security adviser | 0:46:35 | 0:46:42 | |
is leading on much of this so I
would not want to pinch other | 0:46:42 | 0:46:47 | |
aspects of the national security and
capability review. I would also | 0:46:47 | 0:46:50 | |
struggle to get away outlining some
of the things we wish to do without | 0:46:50 | 0:46:57 | |
breaching national security. If my
honourable friend will forgive me | 0:46:57 | 0:47:01 | |
for evading his question... I thank
the Minister for his statement and | 0:47:01 | 0:47:07 | |
for his promise of a review.
Recruitment has fallen to such an | 0:47:07 | 0:47:12 | |
extent that more personal now leave
town are recruited. They tell me | 0:47:12 | 0:47:20 | |
that reopening the Army recruitment
offices in the high street would | 0:47:20 | 0:47:25 | |
help. Could I ask, would he as a
matter of urgency considered the | 0:47:25 | 0:47:32 | |
reintroduction of high-street
recruitment centres to increase the | 0:47:32 | 0:47:35 | |
numbers and delivered the defence
modernisation around the soldiers | 0:47:35 | 0:47:37 | |
recruited? That is an option we are
looking at and we have seen an | 0:47:37 | 0:47:43 | |
uptake in the number of people who
are blind to -- who are applying to | 0:47:43 | 0:47:51 | |
join the British Army, we're happy
to look at all ideas to make sure we | 0:47:51 | 0:47:54 | |
get the right number of people to
join the armed services so we can | 0:47:54 | 0:47:57 | |
fill the numbers to operate
effectively. I would like to take | 0:47:57 | 0:48:05 | |
this opportunity to wish you a very
happy Burns Night. I am addressing a | 0:48:05 | 0:48:11 | |
Burns supper and when I stand up,
will I be able to confirm this | 0:48:11 | 0:48:15 | |
review will remain in the sole
command of the Secretary of State | 0:48:15 | 0:48:18 | |
and that in conducting the review he
and his staff are fully aware of the | 0:48:18 | 0:48:22 | |
critical importance the senior
services capabilities of which there | 0:48:22 | 0:48:26 | |
has been some concern of late,
especially the amphibious | 0:48:26 | 0:48:31 | |
capabilities? I can give very clear
confirmation this will remain in the | 0:48:31 | 0:48:34 | |
hands of the MOD. We are driving
this review, this programme of | 0:48:34 | 0:48:38 | |
modernisation. The Prime Minister
and everyone thinks it is right for | 0:48:38 | 0:48:43 | |
the ready to do this. The first time
we have done it in this way since | 0:48:43 | 0:48:47 | |
2010. I hope that as part of this we
will get the right answers as part | 0:48:47 | 0:48:51 | |
of the work we are doing. Point of
order. Doctor Julian Lewis. Thank | 0:48:51 | 0:48:58 | |
you. What a delight it is to see you
back in the chair. Have IVU or Mr | 0:48:58 | 0:49:07 | |
Speaker been given notice by the
Chancellor of the Exchequer that in | 0:49:07 | 0:49:12 | |
view of the important call by the
former Secretary of State for | 0:49:12 | 0:49:17 | |
Defence for 2.5% of GDP to be spent
on defence that he will be coming to | 0:49:17 | 0:49:22 | |
this Chamber in order to announce an
increase in the defence budget so | 0:49:22 | 0:49:27 | |
that the present Secretary of State
for Defence and put it to good use? | 0:49:27 | 0:49:31 | |
-- have you or the secretary of
defence. What I can say is, the good | 0:49:31 | 0:49:44 | |
thing is, it will be on the record,
and I'm sure they will be coming to | 0:49:44 | 0:49:47 | |
let you know what the outcome be
very shortly. I am grateful. It is | 0:49:47 | 0:49:53 | |
very good to see you back in your
place. It was July, 2017, when the | 0:49:53 | 0:50:00 | |
Prime Minister announced there was
to be a public inquiry into the | 0:50:00 | 0:50:03 | |
contaminated blood scandal, the
worst in the NHS. It is now near the | 0:50:03 | 0:50:10 | |
end of January, 2018, and we still
do not have a chair or terms of | 0:50:10 | 0:50:15 | |
reference or any indication when the
public inquiry will be established. | 0:50:15 | 0:50:19 | |
I wondered if you had been given any
indication from the Government about | 0:50:19 | 0:50:24 | |
a statement or announcement about
what will happen next with this | 0:50:24 | 0:50:31 | |
long-awaited public inquiry? I can
assure you I have been given no | 0:50:31 | 0:50:34 | |
indication. She will certainly take
up other news to pursue it. It is on | 0:50:34 | 0:50:40 | |
the record, it is an important
matter and I'm sure the Government | 0:50:40 | 0:50:45 | |
will look at it -- take up other
avenues. A pleasure to see you back | 0:50:45 | 0:50:50 | |
in your place. Following the
statement we have just had, many | 0:50:50 | 0:50:55 | |
members here today and not here
today feel deeply aggrieved at the | 0:50:55 | 0:50:59 | |
way it has been handled. You will
know about the shenanigans yesterday | 0:50:59 | 0:51:04 | |
of the statement being ordered off
several times. Worse than that, at a | 0:51:04 | 0:51:10 | |
debate yesterday morning, the
Minister of State sat to the left of | 0:51:10 | 0:51:14 | |
the Secretary of State right now
shoring members that the debate that | 0:51:14 | 0:51:17 | |
the statement would not be happening
this week, but next week. I was | 0:51:17 | 0:51:22 | |
given an assurance by the Leader of
the House that it would be happening | 0:51:22 | 0:51:26 | |
next week. Whilst I welcome the fact
it has come earlier, the way they | 0:51:26 | 0:51:29 | |
have tried to jiggery pokery this
around has been deeply unedifying | 0:51:29 | 0:51:34 | |
and discourteous to members of the
House. Can you give an assurance | 0:51:34 | 0:51:39 | |
this will not happen again from the
MoD and can you advise members how | 0:51:39 | 0:51:44 | |
we can ensure that when they come to
report in July, as they hope to do, | 0:51:44 | 0:51:49 | |
that the same thing does not happen
so they trick members into thinking | 0:51:49 | 0:51:53 | |
the statement is not forthcoming
when it actually has been? It is not | 0:51:53 | 0:51:59 | |
for the chair to decide when the
statement will come. It is up to the | 0:51:59 | 0:52:03 | |
Secretary of State when they decide
to do that. I recognise there has | 0:52:03 | 0:52:08 | |
been a lot of frustration, I am sure
that will have been taken on board, | 0:52:08 | 0:52:12 | |
and I am sure usual channels can't
begin to have a conversation to try | 0:52:12 | 0:52:16 | |
to work to ensure all parties do not
feel aggrieved and I'm sure it has | 0:52:16 | 0:52:21 | |
been taken on board and I can assure
you it is not for the chair to | 0:52:21 | 0:52:25 | |
decide when the statement will come
-- I am sure the usual channels can | 0:52:25 | 0:52:30 | |
begin. I'm sure it was not done
deliberately. The come back again, I | 0:52:30 | 0:52:37 | |
do happen to know that there was a
strong wish on the part of the | 0:52:37 | 0:52:44 | |
Secretary of State for Defence and
his team to have made this statement | 0:52:44 | 0:52:48 | |
yesterday and the only reason it was
not made was so as not to cut into | 0:52:48 | 0:52:53 | |
opposition day time. I do think that
should be borne in mind. I do not | 0:52:53 | 0:52:58 | |
want to pursue the debate, I know
there were various discussions | 0:52:58 | 0:53:00 | |
yesterday. In the end, the statement
came today and what I would say is, | 0:53:00 | 0:53:08 | |
I do not want to get into how it was
arrived at, that is something that | 0:53:08 | 0:53:12 | |
was done behind and quite rightly
with Mr Speaker, it is where we are | 0:53:12 | 0:53:18 | |
at now, I will not pursue it in any
other way, the statement has been | 0:53:18 | 0:53:21 | |
heard, move on from that. OK. Right,
we now come to select committee | 0:53:21 | 0:53:28 | |
statement. Mr Bernard Jenkin will
speak for up to ten minutes during | 0:53:28 | 0:53:32 | |
which no interventions may be taken.
At the conclusion, I will call | 0:53:32 | 0:53:36 | |
members to put questions on the
subject of the statement and called | 0:53:36 | 0:53:40 | |
Mr Bernard Jenkin to respond in
turn. Members can expect to be | 0:53:40 | 0:53:44 | |
called only once and
interventions... Order. Minister. I | 0:53:44 | 0:53:56 | |
am in the middle of the statement.
Not further your colleagues. Please, | 0:53:56 | 0:54:00 | |
show a little more respect. Members
can expect to be called only once. | 0:54:00 | 0:54:07 | |
Interventions should be questions
and three. The front bench might | 0:54:07 | 0:54:10 | |
take part in questioning. I call the
chair of the committee. Overseeing | 0:54:10 | 0:54:21 | |
the UK's changing constitution and
the efficacy of the civil service. | 0:54:21 | 0:54:28 | |
Within that, it covers matters of
ethics and propriety in Whitehall | 0:54:28 | 0:54:33 | |
overseeing the work of the Committee
on Standards in Public Life, the | 0:54:33 | 0:54:37 | |
ministerial code, the civil service
code and the work of the advisory | 0:54:37 | 0:54:42 | |
committee on business appointments,
known as Acoba, when they take up | 0:54:42 | 0:54:53 | |
outside appointments. Pacac has to
find its overriding purpose as | 0:54:53 | 0:54:57 | |
being, I'll quote, to conduct robust
and effective scrutiny to help | 0:54:57 | 0:55:02 | |
create conditions whether public can
have justified confidence in public | 0:55:02 | 0:55:06 | |
and government. In that context,
just before the election, in April, | 0:55:06 | 0:55:13 | |
2017, a new report was published
entitled managing ministers and | 0:55:13 | 0:55:17 | |
officials conflicts of interests,
time for clearer values, principles | 0:55:17 | 0:55:24 | |
and action. This followed a report
published in 2012 by our predecessor | 0:55:24 | 0:55:28 | |
committee which recommended
replacing the existing rules with a | 0:55:28 | 0:55:35 | |
statutory system. The main
recommendations of that report and | 0:55:35 | 0:55:39 | |
of our more recent 2017 report have
been flatly rejected by the | 0:55:39 | 0:55:43 | |
Government. I'm afraid many people
believe this to be hopelessly | 0:55:43 | 0:55:46 | |
complacent. PACAC is therefore
announcing in a supplementary report | 0:55:46 | 0:55:52 | |
published today that we intend to
hold a further inquiry into these | 0:55:52 | 0:55:56 | |
matters. The way we manage conflicts
of interest arising where former | 0:55:56 | 0:56:01 | |
ministers and crown servants leave
the Government to take up jobs | 0:56:01 | 0:56:03 | |
elsewhere really matters. There is a
constant stream of embarrassing | 0:56:03 | 0:56:10 | |
stories in the media about the
so-called revolving door between | 0:56:10 | 0:56:14 | |
employment in the public and private
sector, suggesting that people must | 0:56:14 | 0:56:18 | |
use the advantage of a job in
government to get lucrative jobs | 0:56:18 | 0:56:22 | |
outside. While many of these stories
may be unfair, this is deeply | 0:56:22 | 0:56:27 | |
corrosive of public trust in our
system of democracy and government | 0:56:27 | 0:56:31 | |
because the present system of
oversight fails to provide adequate | 0:56:31 | 0:56:34 | |
assurance. For example, I name only
one department as an example, but it | 0:56:34 | 0:56:41 | |
includes every department, the
constant flow of MoD civil servants | 0:56:41 | 0:56:44 | |
and senior officers from the Armed
Forces who finish up working in the | 0:56:44 | 0:56:49 | |
defence industry, a similar
situation occurs in other | 0:56:49 | 0:56:52 | |
departments. Nobody should assume
that there is automatically anything | 0:56:52 | 0:56:55 | |
wrong with this, but there needs to
be an adequate system of assurance | 0:56:55 | 0:57:00 | |
that there is indeed nothing wrong
and that we are not fostering and | 0:57:00 | 0:57:05 | |
over permissive attitude. The
expectation of many people, even of | 0:57:05 | 0:57:08 | |
some ministers, is that this is the
new normal and everybody does it. We | 0:57:08 | 0:57:13 | |
acknowledge and I pay tribute to the
hard work of the ACOBA board, the | 0:57:13 | 0:57:19 | |
chair, the secretary at, but both
2017 and 2012 reports can only be | 0:57:19 | 0:57:26 | |
described as a excoriating. In 2017,
they concluded, ACOBA in its current | 0:57:26 | 0:57:32 | |
form is a toothless regulator which
has failed to change the environment | 0:57:32 | 0:57:36 | |
around business appointments. That
is because ACOBA lacks power, | 0:57:36 | 0:57:42 | |
resources and its remit is much too
limited. It is not a regulator, | 0:57:42 | 0:57:48 | |
merely advisory, with no sanctions
for noncompliance and there are | 0:57:48 | 0:57:52 | |
regular instances of business
appointment rules being ignored. | 0:57:52 | 0:58:03 | |
We actually have little idea of the
scale of noncompliance. This has got | 0:58:03 | 0:58:08 | |
worse since the Government removed
Acoba's responsibility to report and | 0:58:08 | 0:58:15 | |
more on the from below DD3 in 2010.
Departments are meant to post half | 0:58:15 | 0:58:23 | |
yearly data on their websites to
show when advice is given to | 0:58:23 | 0:58:27 | |
applicants. But this data has become
patchy. We just don't know how many | 0:58:27 | 0:58:34 | |
servants below SS3 level who have
performed important roles end up in | 0:58:34 | 0:58:42 | |
a position to draw an insight
information on their Government | 0:58:42 | 0:58:46 | |
contacts after they leave the civil
servant. In the period between the | 0:58:46 | 0:58:51 | |
reports the challenge has escalated
with increased numbers of public | 0:58:51 | 0:58:55 | |
servants and ministers moving
between the private and public | 0:58:55 | 0:59:00 | |
sectors. A personal observation is
that the magazine Private Eye, who | 0:59:00 | 0:59:12 | |
whom we took evidence frequently
appears to do a better business | 0:59:12 | 0:59:16 | |
policing the rules than the advisory
committee itself. It is essential | 0:59:16 | 0:59:20 | |
that steps are taken to ensure that
the Acoba system is swiftly | 0:59:20 | 0:59:26 | |
improved. In the more recent report
we set out recommendations in | 0:59:26 | 0:59:31 | |
relation to how it could be done
without result to statute. Although | 0:59:31 | 0:59:35 | |
we recommend that a cost benefit
analysis of statutory regulation | 0:59:35 | 0:59:41 | |
should be rejected. It has been
rejected on the basis it will be too | 0:59:41 | 0:59:47 | |
costly but they refuse to do the
cost benefit analysis. It | 0:59:47 | 0:59:49 | |
recommended that the Government
should be provided with the powers | 0:59:49 | 0:59:53 | |
necessary to enforce compliance with
the rules and there should be a | 0:59:53 | 0:59:58 | |
substantial increase in transparency
regarding Acoba's decision and | 0:59:58 | 1:00:01 | |
departments. Applications should be
published on receipt, not just those | 1:00:01 | 1:00:07 | |
which are approved and indeed that
might reduce a lot of their | 1:00:07 | 1:00:12 | |
unnecessary workload.
Most important, the business | 1:00:12 | 1:00:16 | |
appointment rules should be
fundamentally changed. A system to | 1:00:16 | 1:00:19 | |
manage conflicts of interest should
be more than codes and declarations. | 1:00:19 | 1:00:25 | |
If it is effectively taught by
leaders and learned by everyone to | 1:00:25 | 1:00:30 | |
be intrinsic to public service would
create a new and different | 1:00:30 | 1:00:35 | |
expectations that individuals will
act with integrity encouraging | 1:00:35 | 1:00:39 | |
people to regulate their own
behaviour and attitude according to | 1:00:39 | 1:00:42 | |
those principals. Our report
recommends a change of emphasis in | 1:00:42 | 1:00:46 | |
the Ministerial Code and the civil
service code to highlight the | 1:00:46 | 1:00:51 | |
principals which should guide
behaviour. We need to instil | 1:00:51 | 1:00:56 | |
decisions. We believe this combined
with the independent checks could | 1:00:56 | 1:01:02 | |
foster a substantial improvement in
attitudes and behaviours. The | 1:01:02 | 1:01:06 | |
Government responded that the
essence of these principals and | 1:01:06 | 1:01:08 | |
values are embedded in the code but
they are not ex-police tick enough. | 1:01:08 | 1:01:14 | |
-- explicit enough. We need a change
of heart, a change of system | 1:01:14 | 1:01:19 | |
otherwise public confidence will
continue to be eroded. | 1:01:19 | 1:01:23 | |
That ening you, Mr Deputy Speaker.
Can I chang the honourable gentleman | 1:01:23 | 1:01:30 | |
for the powerful report he's made.
On this side we are committed to | 1:01:30 | 1:01:33 | |
bring this issue to the top of the
political agenda and seek reform as | 1:01:33 | 1:01:38 | |
not a week goes by without the
exposure of some conflict of | 1:01:38 | 1:01:41 | |
interest within the heart of
Government. So bearing in mind his | 1:01:41 | 1:01:44 | |
statement and report does the chair
of the Select Committee agree with | 1:01:44 | 1:01:47 | |
me that the report raises serious
questions of governance and confirms | 1:01:47 | 1:01:50 | |
this is a Government of the few by
the few and for the few? I will | 1:01:50 | 1:01:58 | |
leave aside the sound bite that came
at the end of his question. But the | 1:01:58 | 1:02:03 | |
substance of his remark is correct.
That the system is inadequate. It | 1:02:03 | 1:02:08 | |
needs to be strengthened and
reformed and I am delighted that Her | 1:02:08 | 1:02:13 | |
Majesty's official opposition will
take an interest in this matter. | 1:02:13 | 1:02:20 | |
Thank you very much. We agree the
business appointment rules should be | 1:02:26 | 1:02:32 | |
strengthened and we are disappointed
with the Government's response. As | 1:02:32 | 1:02:36 | |
Burns would have said, I wouldn't
give a button for it. Would he agree | 1:02:36 | 1:02:42 | |
that Private Eye recognise this
resolving door in Government smacks, | 1:02:42 | 1:02:48 | |
in the Government res'ses upon to
this evident problem that their | 1:02:48 | 1:02:54 | |
response smacks of complacency and
self-interest? Would he agree there | 1:02:54 | 1:02:59 | |
is little respect for Acoba and
would he agree if nothing is done by | 1:02:59 | 1:03:03 | |
Government and by this House to
strengthen the business appointment | 1:03:03 | 1:03:07 | |
rules it will undermine trust in
politics? Our report does mention | 1:03:07 | 1:03:15 | |
George Osborne as, in two respects,
first of all that it was striking | 1:03:15 | 1:03:22 | |
and starting that Acoba appeared to
give a blank cheque to the former | 1:03:22 | 1:03:27 | |
Chancellor to join black rock at a
very, very inflated salary. So | 1:03:27 | 1:03:34 | |
shortly after he had left his office
as Chancellor of the Exchequer. And | 1:03:34 | 1:03:41 | |
George Osborne also completely by
passed the appointment as editor of | 1:03:41 | 1:03:47 | |
The Evening Standard prior to
accepting his appointment, and we | 1:03:47 | 1:03:51 | |
regard this as a very glaring
example, not necessarily to the | 1:03:51 | 1:03:59 | |
dishonour of any particular
individual but of how the system | 1:03:59 | 1:04:03 | |
fails to command public confidence.
Mr Deputy Speaker may I join others | 1:04:03 | 1:04:10 | |
in welcoming you to your place? May
I thank the honourable member for | 1:04:10 | 1:04:15 | |
his work in bringing these affairs
to the attention of the House today. | 1:04:15 | 1:04:19 | |
May I simply, may I simply encourage
members who are present here today | 1:04:19 | 1:04:23 | |
if they have not done so to look at
the Government response which has | 1:04:23 | 1:04:26 | |
been laid in response to the
committee's report in which we | 1:04:26 | 1:04:30 | |
clearly state that the Government is
committed to maintaining the highest | 1:04:30 | 1:04:34 | |
standards of conduct for ministers
and civil servants including special | 1:04:34 | 1:04:38 | |
advisers and the rules and
procedures we have in place we | 1:04:38 | 1:04:42 | |
believe are proportionate anded a
Kuwait. We look forward to, working | 1:04:42 | 1:04:46 | |
-- and adequate. We look forward to
working with the committee. | 1:04:46 | 1:04:52 | |
I first of all welcome my honourable
friend back to the front bench in | 1:04:52 | 1:04:56 | |
her position in the Cabinet Office.
To which she brings considerable | 1:04:56 | 1:05:01 | |
experience and indeed some
experience of this issue. I have to | 1:05:01 | 1:05:07 | |
express my disappointment of the
response that the Government tabled. | 1:05:07 | 1:05:12 | |
I mean there were some acceptances
of some minor amendments. But to | 1:05:12 | 1:05:19 | |
regard this, a system, as the
highest example of regulation and | 1:05:19 | 1:05:25 | |
openness, when it simply does not
deliver the public confidence that | 1:05:25 | 1:05:29 | |
we wish, I appreciate this is a
vexed issue and that we don't want | 1:05:29 | 1:05:34 | |
to deter people coming into this the
public service if they feel they | 1:05:34 | 1:05:37 | |
will be unfairly treated on the way
out. | 1:05:37 | 1:05:42 | |
But the present arrangements are not
adequate and even to refuse, putting | 1:05:42 | 1:05:49 | |
more explicitly into the Ministerial
Code words such as we recommend, you | 1:05:49 | 1:05:53 | |
must take decisions in the public
interest alone, you must never allow | 1:05:53 | 1:05:57 | |
yourself to be influenced in
contract and procurement regulation | 1:05:57 | 1:06:02 | |
or advice by your career
expectations or prospects if you | 1:06:02 | 1:06:06 | |
leave the public service. You must
not take up any post outside in | 1:06:06 | 1:06:11 | |
business or commercial operations op
rating in areas you have been | 1:06:11 | 1:06:15 | |
directly responsible. I don't
understand why these things can not | 1:06:15 | 1:06:19 | |
be put explicitly in the Ministerial
Code in order that they should be | 1:06:19 | 1:06:24 | |
talked about and understood and it
should change the attitudes that are | 1:06:24 | 1:06:29 | |
unfortunately pervading much of
ministers, special ministers and | 1:06:29 | 1:06:33 | |
civil servants in Whitehall. Doesn't
the conduct of the Government in, on | 1:06:33 | 1:06:40 | |
this report re-enforce the public
view that we hear acting in our own | 1:06:40 | 1:06:44 | |
private interests and not in the
public interests. And isn't it | 1:06:44 | 1:06:49 | |
significant that a Prime Minister
who has not lifted a finger in | 1:06:49 | 1:06:55 | |
answer to the pleas for reform, to
jam the resolving door during the | 1:06:55 | 1:07:00 | |
period of office, have now taken
advantage of that period of office | 1:07:00 | 1:07:03 | |
to take a job with Chinese, with
whom he worked in Government, and | 1:07:03 | 1:07:09 | |
can the chair of the committee
explain to us why the invitation to | 1:07:09 | 1:07:16 | |
George Osborne to come to the
committee, to explain why he had | 1:07:16 | 1:07:22 | |
five meetings with Black Rock, he
altered the law in their favour and | 1:07:22 | 1:07:27 | |
when he lost his office took a job
with them for £6 50,000 for a | 1:07:27 | 1:07:35 | |
one-day week's work. If that is not
an example of the use of the | 1:07:35 | 1:07:40 | |
revolving door, it is hard to see
what is. We have a shameful record | 1:07:40 | 1:07:47 | |
and the public, perhaps the chair
would agree, will regard this with | 1:07:47 | 1:07:52 | |
contempt, rightly in the future, as
not being fit to police our own | 1:07:52 | 1:07:57 | |
affairs.
Sadly, I agree with my honourable, | 1:07:57 | 1:08:03 | |
with the honourable gentleman, who
is a member of my committee and who | 1:08:03 | 1:08:06 | |
has been very instrumental in
drawing the committee's attention to | 1:08:06 | 1:08:10 | |
these issues and I would almost
describe him as the conscience of | 1:08:10 | 1:08:13 | |
the committee on this issue.
And long may he continue to | 1:08:13 | 1:08:17 | |
encourage us in this work. As he
knows, it is not the practise of the | 1:08:17 | 1:08:24 | |
committee to prosecute individual
cases. I think we should resist | 1:08:24 | 1:08:26 | |
that.
Because I think it would divert | 1:08:26 | 1:08:30 | |
attention from the substance of the
work that we need to undertake. I | 1:08:30 | 1:08:37 | |
actually am quite pleased about how
obviously carefully drafted the | 1:08:37 | 1:08:42 | |
Government's response is to our
report, because I think that the | 1:08:42 | 1:08:45 | |
points we are making in our report
are having a telling effect. Though | 1:08:45 | 1:08:49 | |
we have a long way to go and that's
why he's been one of those | 1:08:49 | 1:08:54 | |
encouraging the committee to
encourage this, pursuing this | 1:08:54 | 1:08:56 | |
subject with a further enquiry. I
thank him for his work for the | 1:08:56 | 1:09:00 | |
committee.
THE SPEAKER: Now we come to joint | 1:09:00 | 1:09:06 | |
enterprise.
Understanding orders it is usually | 1:09:06 | 1:09:09 | |
around 15 minutes.
Thank you very much, Mr Deputy | 1:09:09 | 1:09:14 | |
Speaker. May I first of all welcome
you back to our place in the chair | 1:09:14 | 1:09:19 | |
today. I am sure the whole House
will join me in wishing you and your | 1:09:19 | 1:09:25 | |
family all the best. I know it's
been a very difficult few weeks for | 1:09:25 | 1:09:29 | |
you. Can I also thank the Backbench
Business Committee for agreeing the | 1:09:29 | 1:09:35 | |
application for this important
debate. And to The Right Honourable | 1:09:35 | 1:09:39 | |
and honourable members who supported
the application, particularly the | 1:09:39 | 1:09:46 | |
members for Sutton #k08d field,
Bromley and can Chislehurst and | 1:09:46 | 1:09:50 | |
Tottenham, as they lead members. I
would like to thank the families and | 1:09:50 | 1:09:54 | |
campaigners on joint exercise. Many
of whom are in the public gallery | 1:09:54 | 1:09:58 | |
today and who have never given up
their fight for justice for their | 1:09:58 | 1:10:02 | |
loved ones. So why this debate today
and now? Nearly two years to the day | 1:10:02 | 1:10:09 | |
since the Supreme Court made a
landmark ruling tha the law had | 1:10:09 | 1:10:14 | |
taken a wrong turn, followed many
years of campaigning with | 1:10:14 | 1:10:19 | |
high-profile and documentaries such
as Common by Jimmy McGovern. Since | 1:10:19 | 1:10:25 | |
that time nothing of substance has
actually changed. The campaigners | 1:10:25 | 1:10:29 | |
leading up to that highlighted how
particularly in murder cases | 1:10:29 | 1:10:35 | |
secondary parties were often
receiving mandatory life sentences | 1:10:35 | 1:10:39 | |
for lesser or no significant part in
the crime than the principal. And | 1:10:39 | 1:10:44 | |
that the evidential bar in many
cases is much lower threshold than | 1:10:44 | 1:10:50 | |
would normally apply to murder,
particularly that the secondary | 1:10:50 | 1:10:54 | |
parties might have foreseen the
actions of others and intended or | 1:10:54 | 1:11:01 | |
have knowingly foreseen. At the time
of the Supreme Court ruling, | 1:11:01 | 1:11:06 | |
campaigners, parliamentarians and
others viewed this ruling as a | 1:11:06 | 1:11:09 | |
victory and had confidence that the
injustices of the past would be put | 1:11:09 | 1:11:13 | |
right. And the use of joint
enterprise going forward would be | 1:11:13 | 1:11:17 | |
more limited. However, two years on
from the Supreme Court ruling and it | 1:11:17 | 1:11:23 | |
feels increasingly like a victory,
with no case from the 30 years of | 1:11:23 | 1:11:28 | |
the wrong law being applied, having
yet been awarded an appeal and many | 1:11:28 | 1:11:32 | |
new cases with all the hallmarks of
the old cases being successfully | 1:11:32 | 1:11:37 | |
prosecuted.
I shall give way to... Can I thank | 1:11:37 | 1:11:44 | |
my honourable friend and
congratulate her on this debate on | 1:11:44 | 1:11:47 | |
this really difficult issue, which
is not a small issue. Would she | 1:11:47 | 1:11:52 | |
agree 4,500 people are currently in
prison caught under the wrongful | 1:11:52 | 1:11:58 | |
application of joint enterprise laws
omen, women and children, who are | 1:11:58 | 1:12:02 | |
serving long sentences for crimes
they did not commit? I would fully | 1:12:02 | 1:12:06 | |
agree with the point made by my
honourable friend there. In fact we | 1:12:06 | 1:12:10 | |
know that it's at least that sort of
figure and we don't have the | 1:12:10 | 1:12:14 | |
accurate figures. Before she moves
on, can I congratulate her on this | 1:12:14 | 1:12:20 | |
debate. It is a crucial issue. An
All Party Parliamentary Group on | 1:12:20 | 1:12:27 | |
miscarriages of justice, it has this
as a high priority. On a particular | 1:12:27 | 1:12:32 | |
case, Alex Hendry is of great
important because I chair the autism | 1:12:32 | 1:12:35 | |
commission. There are seven people
in this ghastly predicament on the | 1:12:35 | 1:12:42 | |
autism spectrum and that has been
taken out of account. | 1:12:42 | 1:12:45 | |
I know the family are here today, of
that case, and it has many of the | 1:12:48 | 1:12:55 | |
hallmarks we will come on to
discuss. We are seeing the new | 1:12:55 | 1:12:58 | |
generation of joint enterprise
lifers in prison. The Supreme Court | 1:12:58 | 1:13:04 | |
said it was, I quote, the
responsibility of the court to put | 1:13:04 | 1:13:08 | |
them all right. But many of us have
come to the conclusion the criminal | 1:13:08 | 1:13:12 | |
justice will not and is not writing
itself in relation to a joint | 1:13:12 | 1:13:18 | |
enterprise and that we need to act.
That is why MPs from across the | 1:13:18 | 1:13:23 | |
House have joined together today so
we can send a strong signal to the | 1:13:23 | 1:13:28 | |
Government and the prosecutors that
the way we are continuing to apply | 1:13:28 | 1:13:32 | |
the law and the incredibly high bar
set for the previous... I will give | 1:13:32 | 1:13:37 | |
way in a moment. The previous unsafe
convictions to be heard, it needs | 1:13:37 | 1:13:42 | |
re-dress. I will give way briefly to
both my colleagues. I am grateful | 1:13:42 | 1:13:49 | |
and I congratulate her on bringing
this very important subject to the | 1:13:49 | 1:13:53 | |
floor of the House of Commons. I
have had reason to represent one of | 1:13:53 | 1:13:57 | |
my constituents who was convicted
and sentenced to 31 years under | 1:13:57 | 1:14:03 | |
joint enterprise. He was doubly
punished recently because he was not | 1:14:03 | 1:14:09 | |
allowed to go to his grandmother's
funeral, not because of anything he | 1:14:09 | 1:14:13 | |
had done wrong, but because Greater
Manchester Police thought he may | 1:14:13 | 1:14:17 | |
become a victim, a double
punishment. Isn't the real problem | 1:14:17 | 1:14:24 | |
with joint enterprise that people
are punished and sentenced to long | 1:14:24 | 1:14:31 | |
prison sentence of over 30 years for
actions they did not carry out | 1:14:31 | 1:14:37 | |
themselves? I would agree
wholeheartedly with my colleague. I | 1:14:37 | 1:14:39 | |
will take one more intervention and
then make some progress. I am very | 1:14:39 | 1:14:44 | |
grateful to my honourable friend
forgiving way and I just try to read | 1:14:44 | 1:14:47 | |
the comments. Very good to see you
back in your place. Two questions. | 1:14:47 | 1:14:55 | |
One following pack made by our
honourable friend, looking at the | 1:14:55 | 1:15:00 | |
statistics, 37% of those serving
long sentences for joint enterprise | 1:15:00 | 1:15:04 | |
of blacks, 11 times the proportion
of black people in the proportion, | 1:15:04 | 1:15:10 | |
and also if you're mixed race,
similarly disproportionate figures | 1:15:10 | 1:15:14 | |
which I think underlines why it is
absolutely essential we have the | 1:15:14 | 1:15:18 | |
review that my honourable friend has
called for in the motion today which | 1:15:18 | 1:15:22 | |
I fully support. Secondly, surely we
are seeing a case, given the | 1:15:22 | 1:15:29 | |
uncertainty here, where the courts
are in effect acting as legislators. | 1:15:29 | 1:15:35 | |
That is wrong. Where there is
uncertainty in the law, it is for | 1:15:35 | 1:15:38 | |
this House to tidy up, particularly
when it is visiting injustice. I | 1:15:38 | 1:15:44 | |
wholeheartedly agree with his
sentiment and I will come on to | 1:15:44 | 1:15:49 | |
address some of that in my speech.
With hundreds of what is known as | 1:15:49 | 1:15:55 | |
lifers in prison convicted under
what the Supreme Court viewed as a | 1:15:55 | 1:15:59 | |
wrong application of the law, this
is potentially one of the biggest | 1:15:59 | 1:16:03 | |
and most widespread miscarriages of
justice ever to face our justice | 1:16:03 | 1:16:08 | |
system and as such, I fear that the
cosy club of the criminal justice | 1:16:08 | 1:16:14 | |
establishment is closing in on
itself to prevent this from fully | 1:16:14 | 1:16:17 | |
ever being exposed. What is joint
enterprise? Joint enterprise has | 1:16:17 | 1:16:22 | |
been applied in cases for over 300
years although it is a common law | 1:16:22 | 1:16:27 | |
which has never been passed by
Parliament. The doctrine allows for | 1:16:27 | 1:16:29 | |
more than one person to be charged
with the same offence, despite the | 1:16:29 | 1:16:33 | |
fact they may have played a
different or no role in the crime. | 1:16:33 | 1:16:38 | |
Joint enterprise applies to all
crimes but in recent years it has | 1:16:38 | 1:16:41 | |
been particularly used as a way to
prosecute murder. Especially but not | 1:16:41 | 1:16:46 | |
exclusively in cases involving
groups of young men. This is | 1:16:46 | 1:16:50 | |
obviously a very emotive issue
particularly for families of murder | 1:16:50 | 1:16:54 | |
victims. And no one is suggesting
that those who commit murder or | 1:16:54 | 1:16:58 | |
knowingly and intentionally
assisting committing murder should | 1:16:58 | 1:17:02 | |
not face the full force of the law.
However, nor should the evidential | 1:17:02 | 1:17:07 | |
bar for serious offences like murder
be lower by virtue of presents or | 1:17:07 | 1:17:13 | |
association with the principal
offender, as we have all too often | 1:17:13 | 1:17:18 | |
seen. Indeed there are many cases
and I'm sure many of these will come | 1:17:18 | 1:17:21 | |
to light today where people are
serving life sentences when it is | 1:17:21 | 1:17:26 | |
clear they did not commit murder but
they were found guilty under the old | 1:17:26 | 1:17:30 | |
or Ron Lock of parasitic process at
Oriel liability. Furthermore, many | 1:17:30 | 1:17:39 | |
others are convicted as second party
is carrying the same sentences as | 1:17:39 | 1:17:43 | |
the principal based on a prosecution
narrative of gang and association, | 1:17:43 | 1:17:47 | |
even though in tent and foresight
are unproven and where the secondary | 1:17:47 | 1:17:52 | |
party was not physically present at
the scene or withdrew from the | 1:17:52 | 1:17:57 | |
scene. There is a further flaw in
how the doctrine is applied when one | 1:17:57 | 1:18:01 | |
looks at the profile of those
convicted of murder. The majority | 1:18:01 | 1:18:06 | |
are of black and ethnic minority
backgrounds and the vast majority | 1:18:06 | 1:18:10 | |
are young with many teenagers
serving life for a secondary or | 1:18:10 | 1:18:15 | |
parasitic role. I will say more
about this, as will others, later, | 1:18:15 | 1:18:21 | |
but we have to ask questions about
the disproportionate use of such | 1:18:21 | 1:18:26 | |
doctrines within certain
communities. There is also a | 1:18:26 | 1:18:30 | |
political context which is relevant
to this debate today. I will briefly | 1:18:30 | 1:18:33 | |
give way. I am so grateful to my
honourable friend. Does she | 1:18:33 | 1:18:37 | |
recognise that in those communities
where 14, 16, 19-year-olds have gone | 1:18:37 | 1:18:46 | |
to prison for significant time when
it is absolutely clear to the | 1:18:46 | 1:18:50 | |
community they have not committed
murder, and is in her community, | 1:18:50 | 1:18:54 | |
what it actually does, it undermines
the sense of the justice system in | 1:18:54 | 1:18:59 | |
the black community, less people
cooperate with the release, less | 1:18:59 | 1:19:03 | |
people have faith in the justice
system, and it undermines all she is | 1:19:03 | 1:19:06 | |
attempting to do? I am hoping to
give everybody ten minutes, the | 1:19:06 | 1:19:12 | |
danger is, I will have to drop it,
if you intervene. I fully agree with | 1:19:12 | 1:19:18 | |
what the honourable member said. I
will try to make some progress. | 1:19:18 | 1:19:22 | |
There is a political context, there
was when the law began to be | 1:19:22 | 1:19:26 | |
overused and extended in its use in
the 1990s, but there is also a | 1:19:26 | 1:19:32 | |
different political context today,
as my honourable friend has just | 1:19:32 | 1:19:35 | |
said. We know more clearly
understand the consequences of the | 1:19:35 | 1:19:39 | |
disproportionate and unfair
replications of the law against | 1:19:39 | 1:19:42 | |
certain groups and I was pleased to
see the Government did recognise | 1:19:42 | 1:19:46 | |
some of this when they launched the
limey review and the Prime | 1:19:46 | 1:19:54 | |
Minister's recent comments about
burning injustices -- the Lammy | 1:19:54 | 1:19:57 | |
review. I hope the Prime Minister
can live up to the rhetoric. The | 1:19:57 | 1:20:01 | |
practice under law have been far too
slow to catch up with the changing | 1:20:01 | 1:20:07 | |
mood in the country -- the practice
and the law. I will look at what the | 1:20:07 | 1:20:11 | |
Supreme Court ruling did and did not
say and what needs to be addressed. | 1:20:11 | 1:20:15 | |
The ruling was clear that the law
governing secondary liability had | 1:20:15 | 1:20:19 | |
taken a wrong turn and it had
resulted in the erroneous | 1:20:19 | 1:20:24 | |
application of the law. However, it
also set out that in order for | 1:20:24 | 1:20:28 | |
appeals to be heard out of time, a
substantial injustice test, not the | 1:20:28 | 1:20:33 | |
usual unsafe conviction test, would
be applied. The substantial | 1:20:33 | 1:20:38 | |
injustice test was not clearly set
out and has never been set out by | 1:20:38 | 1:20:44 | |
this Parliament and subsequently it
has been tested through caselaw and | 1:20:44 | 1:20:48 | |
it is now almost impossibly high bar
for people to pass. That is why | 1:20:48 | 1:20:53 | |
there has yet to be a single
successful appeal awarded by the | 1:20:53 | 1:20:57 | |
Court of Appeal nearly two years on.
Thirdly and finally, in our opinion, | 1:20:57 | 1:21:03 | |
the Supreme Court failed to address
another question put before it which | 1:21:03 | 1:21:08 | |
is, does joint enterprise over
criminalise secondary parties? What | 1:21:08 | 1:21:11 | |
needs to change in the law? Firstly,
what needs to change going forward, | 1:21:11 | 1:21:16 | |
and secondly, how can we put right
some of the injustices of the past? | 1:21:16 | 1:21:21 | |
Going forward, what is clear is that
joint enterprise continues to be | 1:21:21 | 1:21:31 | |
overused and is disproportionately
used against groups of young men, | 1:21:31 | 1:21:33 | |
particularly those from black and
ethnic minority backgrounds. I saw | 1:21:33 | 1:21:35 | |
this first hand at a recent case in
Moss Side were 11 young black men | 1:21:35 | 1:21:39 | |
from that area faced charges of
murder. Seven of those were | 1:21:39 | 1:21:46 | |
convicted of murder and four of
manslaughter, the youngest of which | 1:21:46 | 1:21:50 | |
was only 14 and many of them were
not previously known to the police. | 1:21:50 | 1:21:55 | |
As research by the Manchester
Metropolitan University has shown in | 1:21:55 | 1:21:59 | |
their study, dangerous liaisons,
over half of all of those serving | 1:21:59 | 1:22:05 | |
joint enterprise life sentences are
children or Young adults and over | 1:22:05 | 1:22:09 | |
half are from black and ethnic
minority backgrounds. I will have to | 1:22:09 | 1:22:13 | |
make some progress. I'm sure someone
else will give way later. The | 1:22:13 | 1:22:21 | |
extensive research also found the
establishment of a gang narrative | 1:22:21 | 1:22:25 | |
which often relies on neighbourhood
narratives and racialised | 1:22:25 | 1:22:28 | |
assumptions and by loose
associations and things such as | 1:22:28 | 1:22:34 | |
social media tags and videos, they
have been critical step to security | 1:22:34 | 1:22:42 | |
-- critical to securing many joint
enterprise convictions. This is why | 1:22:42 | 1:22:46 | |
my honourable friend has raised this
in his review and the Home Affairs | 1:22:46 | 1:22:49 | |
Select Committee is looking into it.
Joint enterprise cases continue post | 1:22:49 | 1:22:56 | |
the Supreme Court ruling, albeit
under new CPS guidance, but I think | 1:22:56 | 1:23:01 | |
that remains problematic. Three
areas we want the Government to look | 1:23:01 | 1:23:05 | |
at the future cases.
Proportionality, and is this being | 1:23:05 | 1:23:08 | |
used correctly and
disproportionately against certain | 1:23:08 | 1:23:12 | |
groups? We asked the government to
do what the Supreme Court failed to | 1:23:12 | 1:23:15 | |
do which is establish whether joint
enterprise over criminalise the | 1:23:15 | 1:23:20 | |
secondary parties. Related to this,
we need the data. This is urgent, | 1:23:20 | 1:23:25 | |
collating the data about who is
being charged, convicted and where | 1:23:25 | 1:23:29 | |
and this is long overdue. Finally,
the long-awaited outcome of the | 1:23:29 | 1:23:35 | |
review of the CPS guidance needs to
be brought forward and quickly and | 1:23:35 | 1:23:39 | |
it must include clearer guidance for
prosecution discretion so that | 1:23:39 | 1:23:43 | |
lesser offences can be brought
against secondary parties in many of | 1:23:43 | 1:23:54 | |
these cases. The final point I want
to make is about the retrospective | 1:23:54 | 1:23:56 | |
cases and putting right the
injustices of the past. We are not | 1:23:56 | 1:23:59 | |
asking for automatic reopening of
every single case. It is right there | 1:23:59 | 1:24:02 | |
must be a test but this test is now
so impossibly high that no cases | 1:24:02 | 1:24:07 | |
have successfully been heard by the
Court of Appeal and the criminal | 1:24:07 | 1:24:12 | |
cases review commission has yet to
recommend a single case coming back. | 1:24:12 | 1:24:17 | |
Despite having received 99 fresh
applications and reviewing 90 more. | 1:24:17 | 1:24:22 | |
Appeal judges seem utterly
dismissive of these cases. Unlike in | 1:24:22 | 1:24:28 | |
the usual appeal case where the
threshold is the possibility of an | 1:24:28 | 1:24:32 | |
unsafe conviction, applicants in the
case of the wrong law of joint | 1:24:32 | 1:24:36 | |
enterprise are also required to
demonstrate that as well as being | 1:24:36 | 1:24:39 | |
unsafe, the correct law, they also
have to show that they would have | 1:24:39 | 1:24:45 | |
been a substantial difference to the
outcome. In most of the cases this | 1:24:45 | 1:24:48 | |
would simply be there may have been
done so. We believe the substantial | 1:24:48 | 1:24:56 | |
injustice test needs establishing by
Parliament in law and it should make | 1:24:56 | 1:24:58 | |
clear that the threshold is may and
not wood. We think the Appeal Courts | 1:24:58 | 1:25:06 | |
should be allowed to consider the
ongoing effect of the conviction on | 1:25:06 | 1:25:11 | |
the applicant and critically take
account of the applicant's age, | 1:25:11 | 1:25:14 | |
mental health and other
vulnerabilities. The old or wrongful | 1:25:14 | 1:25:20 | |
sight test now applied correctly to
adolescence or those suffering with | 1:25:20 | 1:25:25 | |
learning or mental difficulties
would surely provide a substantial | 1:25:25 | 1:25:29 | |
change to their conviction and today
we would not expect an immature | 1:25:29 | 1:25:33 | |
teenager or someone with learning
difficulties to understand the old | 1:25:33 | 1:25:37 | |
week for site test. I want the
government to urgently consider a | 1:25:37 | 1:25:44 | |
mechanism for clarifying the
threshold about these cases. To be | 1:25:44 | 1:25:49 | |
clear, this is not about reopening
the floodgates, but if the law had | 1:25:49 | 1:25:52 | |
been wrong for 30 years during which
time hundreds if not thousands of | 1:25:52 | 1:25:57 | |
mandatory life sentences were handed
out under this old wrong law, it | 1:25:57 | 1:26:02 | |
stands to reason that at least some,
not a tiny few, of the cases are | 1:26:02 | 1:26:07 | |
clear injustice which the courts are
currently failing to put right. In | 1:26:07 | 1:26:13 | |
conclusion, we can all agree I think
here today in this House that the | 1:26:13 | 1:26:17 | |
law did indeed take a wrong turn.
Now that needs putting right. The | 1:26:17 | 1:26:24 | |
establishment is evidently not
putting itself right. So government | 1:26:24 | 1:26:28 | |
and Parliament need to act. We
urgently need a review of the use | 1:26:28 | 1:26:33 | |
and scope of prosecutions brought
under joint enterprise, particularly | 1:26:33 | 1:26:37 | |
its disproportionate use against
young and black and ethnic minority | 1:26:37 | 1:26:40 | |
men, and we also need urgent
clarification on the qualification | 1:26:40 | 1:26:45 | |
for appeal so we can put right
decades of substantial injustices | 1:26:45 | 1:26:50 | |
and unsafe convictions leading to
many serving life sentences for | 1:26:50 | 1:26:53 | |
murder as they did not commit. The
question is as on the order paper | 1:26:53 | 1:26:59 | |
with a ten minute limit, Andrew
Mitchell. I welcome you back to your | 1:26:59 | 1:27:07 | |
chair. I congratulate the honourable
lady for securing this debate and I | 1:27:07 | 1:27:11 | |
thank Mr Speaker and the backbench
committee for granting it. I draw | 1:27:11 | 1:27:14 | |
the House's attention to my outside
interests are set out in the | 1:27:14 | 1:27:18 | |
register. We are holding this debate
today because we know thousands of | 1:27:18 | 1:27:23 | |
people have been prosecuted under
joint enterprise over the last | 1:27:23 | 1:27:27 | |
decade alone with a profound fear
that some of these convictions are | 1:27:27 | 1:27:31 | |
unsound. I'm deeply conscious that
behind each of these crimes lies a | 1:27:31 | 1:27:36 | |
victim, usually murdered, with
grieving loved ones whose lives have | 1:27:36 | 1:27:39 | |
been changed forever and ruined. My
heart goes out to all of those and | 1:27:39 | 1:27:45 | |
their families who have suffered in
that way. | 1:27:45 | 1:27:51 | |
We also know there is a wealth of
evidence that suggests that joint | 1:27:51 | 1:27:55 | |
enterprise has both convicted people
in error, and wholly | 1:27:55 | 1:28:00 | |
disproportionately affected those
who identify as black, Asian and | 1:28:00 | 1:28:03 | |
minority ethnic. Young people from
ethnic communities have essentially | 1:28:03 | 1:28:06 | |
been hoovered up for peripheral and
some cases nonexistent involvement | 1:28:06 | 1:28:13 | |
in serious criminal acts. The
Supreme Court decision in the case | 1:28:13 | 1:28:21 | |
of Jogi has proved that the previous
interpretation of the law is wrong. | 1:28:21 | 1:28:29 | |
To date, only a very limited number
of joint enterprise convictions have | 1:28:29 | 1:28:33 | |
been quashed. To find a defendant
guilty of a criminal offence, a jury | 1:28:33 | 1:28:40 | |
must be satisfied that the defendant
both committed the crime and had the | 1:28:40 | 1:28:44 | |
requisite state of mind to carry out
the crime. Yet the law on joint | 1:28:44 | 1:28:48 | |
enterprise and second reliability
more generally was developed by the | 1:28:48 | 1:28:52 | |
courts to ensure that all
participants in a criminal | 1:28:52 | 1:28:54 | |
enterprise could be held
accountable. Indeed, it has been a | 1:28:54 | 1:28:58 | |
key tool when prosecuting suspected
gang members. There has been a | 1:28:58 | 1:29:02 | |
failure by our criminal justice
system to distinguish between gangs | 1:29:02 | 1:29:07 | |
and groups. The house will
understand that not all members of | 1:29:07 | 1:29:11 | |
groups have a criminal purpose, and
not all members of gangs or groups | 1:29:11 | 1:29:15 | |
join in when there is an incident.
Humans are by nature social animals. | 1:29:15 | 1:29:19 | |
People naturally hang about in
groups, teams or protest marches, | 1:29:19 | 1:29:25 | |
and it does not mean that if an
incident occurs, everyone the group | 1:29:25 | 1:29:30 | |
intended it to happen. We know how
indiscriminate the law joint | 1:29:30 | 1:29:35 | |
enterprise has been, and I
congratulate the Right Honourable | 1:29:35 | 1:29:37 | |
member for Tottenham in the work he
has done in uncovering the outcomes | 1:29:37 | 1:29:46 | |
for black, Asian and ethnic minority
people. One group has done so much | 1:29:46 | 1:29:55 | |
good work exposing the inadequacies
of the criminal justice and legal | 1:29:55 | 1:29:58 | |
system in this respect. I also pay
tribute to the Prime Minister, who | 1:29:58 | 1:30:03 | |
as Home Secretary, ensured that the
voice of black mental health was | 1:30:03 | 1:30:05 | |
heard in Government. Mr Deputy
Speaker, it is no accident that the | 1:30:05 | 1:30:10 | |
bulk of the prison population
convicted under joint enterprise are | 1:30:10 | 1:30:16 | |
young black, Asian and ethnic
minority men. It is an uneasy and | 1:30:16 | 1:30:20 | |
difficult truth that an association
may exist consciously or otherwise | 1:30:20 | 1:30:25 | |
in the mind of police, prosecutors
and jewellery is between being a | 1:30:25 | 1:30:29 | |
young ethnic minority mail and being
in a gang and therefore being | 1:30:29 | 1:30:33 | |
involved in urban violence. Such
findings are echoed by studies into | 1:30:33 | 1:30:35 | |
the ethnic profile prisoners
convicted on the basis of joint | 1:30:35 | 1:30:40 | |
enterprise. One study found that for
young people convicted under joint | 1:30:40 | 1:30:46 | |
enterprise, nearly 60% were black,
Asian and minority-owned thing. | 1:30:46 | 1:30:51 | |
There is no real suspicion that
justice has miscarried in many joint | 1:30:51 | 1:30:56 | |
enterprise cases. Juries were not
directed, even the serious cases. | 1:30:56 | 1:31:05 | |
The highest standards of legal
accuracy that we should expect are | 1:31:05 | 1:31:08 | |
simply not being met. In such cases,
we rightly expect the appeal system | 1:31:08 | 1:31:13 | |
to function and to function
effectively. Even as recently as | 1:31:13 | 1:31:17 | |
last year, prosecutors are trying to
find an easy way to convict, as was | 1:31:17 | 1:31:21 | |
shown by the case of Lewis.
Thankfully, the judge found there | 1:31:21 | 1:31:26 | |
was no case to answer. The
prosecution appealed that ruling and | 1:31:26 | 1:31:30 | |
rightly lost. There is now a logjam
in our criminal justice system, with | 1:31:30 | 1:31:34 | |
the Court of Appeal appearing wrong
later blocked appeals by joint | 1:31:34 | 1:31:39 | |
enterprise prisoners. The burden of
the substantial injustice test to | 1:31:39 | 1:31:45 | |
which I have referred has been
passed to the prisoner, which | 1:31:45 | 1:31:49 | |
requires the person convicted to
satisfy the Court of Appeal that he | 1:31:49 | 1:31:56 | |
would not have been convicted.
Instead, the question should be, is | 1:31:56 | 1:32:02 | |
there a realistic possibility that
he would not have been convicted? | 1:32:02 | 1:32:06 | |
Which was, I understand, the legal
precedent and was a test previously | 1:32:06 | 1:32:10 | |
applied, in the case of McInnis
versus Her Majesty's advocate. Along | 1:32:10 | 1:32:16 | |
with the honourable member for
Ealing North, to whom I page a bit, | 1:32:16 | 1:32:20 | |
I visited Alex Hendry in prison,
who, shortly after being convicted | 1:32:20 | 1:32:25 | |
of joint enterprise murder, was
diagnosed with autism. I had taken a | 1:32:25 | 1:32:30 | |
close interest in this case in the
last two years and I think it is one | 1:32:30 | 1:32:34 | |
of immense concern. As we have
learned recently, the police and CPS | 1:32:34 | 1:32:38 | |
are often very difficult to deal
with overexposure to over | 1:32:38 | 1:32:47 | |
disclosure. Evidence available to
the prosecutor is more comprehensive | 1:32:47 | 1:32:50 | |
now, with CCTV and phones, and this
makes it easier in theory could | 1:32:50 | 1:32:55 | |
differentiate between those who join
in on those who don't. -- in theory | 1:32:55 | 1:33:01 | |
to differentiate between. The right
to a fair trial is a basic human | 1:33:01 | 1:33:08 | |
right. I worry that in these cases
our courts are too keen to block | 1:33:08 | 1:33:13 | |
appeals by those who may have been
convicted by error of the courts. | 1:33:13 | 1:33:18 | |
This only serves to undermine our
faith in the justice system. There | 1:33:18 | 1:33:24 | |
is a tendency to believe in Britain
that we have the best criminal | 1:33:24 | 1:33:27 | |
justice system in the world. I put
it to the Has that our attitude to | 1:33:27 | 1:33:32 | |
the justice system is riddled with
complacency, a complacency which is | 1:33:32 | 1:33:38 | |
wholly unjustified. I believe this
view would be borne out by any | 1:33:38 | 1:33:41 | |
fair-minded person who focuses on
the issue of joint enterprise. The | 1:33:41 | 1:33:45 | |
whole House should be grateful to
the Right Honourable member for | 1:33:45 | 1:33:49 | |
Tottenham for his recent report in
respect of the treatment by the | 1:33:49 | 1:33:55 | |
legal system of black, Asian and
ethnic minorities in Britain. There | 1:33:55 | 1:33:57 | |
are many in the legal profession,
quite apart from the Right | 1:33:57 | 1:34:02 | |
Honourable gentleman, who argue that
it is simply unacceptable that in | 1:34:02 | 1:34:06 | |
2018 virtually all senior members of
the judiciary are white men from | 1:34:06 | 1:34:11 | |
privileged backgrounds. This simply
does not reflect the society that is | 1:34:11 | 1:34:15 | |
Britain today and which the
judiciary serves, and we shouldn't | 1:34:15 | 1:34:18 | |
forget that all too often in
Britain, injustice is not remedied | 1:34:18 | 1:34:25 | |
by the state, or indeed by members
of this House. Who can forget that | 1:34:25 | 1:34:33 | |
the manifest injustice of the
Birmingham six was not remedied by | 1:34:33 | 1:34:36 | |
the police of the statement by the
indefatigable work of two members of | 1:34:36 | 1:34:41 | |
this House. Still today, the poor
victims' families of that outrage | 1:34:41 | 1:34:55 | |
have not achieved closure, as the
ongoing coroner's enquiry in | 1:34:55 | 1:35:01 | |
Birmingham so demonstrates. I hope
that following this debate, the | 1:35:01 | 1:35:05 | |
media will take a close interest in
the cases where joint enterprise may | 1:35:05 | 1:35:11 | |
have led to innocent people being
convicted. An organisation formed in | 1:35:11 | 1:35:21 | |
2010, to whom the Honourable Lady
quite rightly referred, is now | 1:35:21 | 1:35:26 | |
supporting over 800 prisoners, many
serving mandatory sentences of life, | 1:35:26 | 1:35:32 | |
22 years, the youngest of whom was
just 12 years when charged. I also | 1:35:32 | 1:35:37 | |
hope that the justice select
committee, with its considerable | 1:35:37 | 1:35:40 | |
authority, and we see the chairman
in his place today, will not allow | 1:35:40 | 1:35:44 | |
these matters to rest until they
have been very fully examined by | 1:35:44 | 1:35:48 | |
Parliament so that we can be assured
that justice has been delivered. May | 1:35:48 | 1:36:00 | |
I also welcome you back to this
place after the tragic circumstances | 1:36:00 | 1:36:04 | |
that befell your family. I would
like to thank my honourable friend, | 1:36:04 | 1:36:08 | |
the member for Manchester Central,
for the very thorough way in which | 1:36:08 | 1:36:15 | |
she has set for the issues of this
debate. And indeed, the Right | 1:36:15 | 1:36:19 | |
Honourable member for Sutton
Coldfield for the issues he has | 1:36:19 | 1:36:24 | |
raised, and the mention of my
predecessor, Chris Mullin, who has | 1:36:24 | 1:36:30 | |
an excellent track record on this
issue. This is a very important | 1:36:30 | 1:36:34 | |
debate, and a difficult one for
politicians to deal with, because I | 1:36:34 | 1:36:38 | |
want to first say that my sympathies
today are always with the victims of | 1:36:38 | 1:36:43 | |
crime. People convicted of murder
must be subject to the full weight | 1:36:43 | 1:36:48 | |
of the law, as should someone safely
convicted of joint enterprise. | 1:36:48 | 1:36:53 | |
However, the change in the low in
2016 by the Supreme Court is, in my | 1:36:53 | 1:36:58 | |
view, not being implemented
correctly. It said that the law had | 1:36:58 | 1:37:07 | |
taken a long term in 1984, and that
is clearly correct. The prices -- | 1:37:07 | 1:37:13 | |
the cases prior to Jogi could only
go back to the Court of Appeal if | 1:37:13 | 1:37:18 | |
they proved their conviction had a
substantial injustice. An injustice | 1:37:18 | 1:37:22 | |
is carrying on for many who are
still in prison today and can't be | 1:37:22 | 1:37:28 | |
granted an appeal because their
cases are out of time and therefore | 1:37:28 | 1:37:32 | |
they have to pass this substantial
injustice test. This is where I want | 1:37:32 | 1:37:36 | |
to focus my remarks. This means that
those convicted more than 28 days | 1:37:36 | 1:37:44 | |
before the change announced by the
Supreme Court have to prove this | 1:37:44 | 1:37:47 | |
substantial injustice. That means
that the change in the law would | 1:37:47 | 1:37:52 | |
have categorically made a
difference. As has been outlined, | 1:37:52 | 1:37:56 | |
that is an enormous bar to reach.
Whereas those people who were | 1:37:56 | 1:38:01 | |
convicted in the 28 days only before
the change have to show their | 1:38:01 | 1:38:06 | |
conviction is unsafe, a much lesser
test of proof. In that change, the | 1:38:06 | 1:38:13 | |
law might have made a reasonable
difference. That means in a | 1:38:13 | 1:38:17 | |
hypothetical situation that two
people convicted of the same crime | 1:38:17 | 1:38:20 | |
with identical evidence are being
treated differently in the eyes of | 1:38:20 | 1:38:24 | |
the law. That simply is wrong and
needs to change. It is no surprise | 1:38:24 | 1:38:31 | |
that of the 800 men, women and
children, and a lot were children | 1:38:31 | 1:38:35 | |
when these convictions happen, that
are supported by the support group, | 1:38:35 | 1:38:44 | |
not one has successfully appealed
their conviction since the supreme | 1:38:44 | 1:38:47 | |
court decision in Jogi. I would like
to place on record my support for | 1:38:47 | 1:38:52 | |
this group, who I think have worked
extremely hard in raising not just | 1:38:52 | 1:38:57 | |
the issues surrounding this but also
the support they give to the | 1:38:57 | 1:39:00 | |
families involved in this. The
British justice system is one that I | 1:39:00 | 1:39:06 | |
feel is a country in most cases we
can be proud of. But when mistakes, | 1:39:06 | 1:39:14 | |
misinterpretation or miscarriages of
justice occur, they must be put | 1:39:14 | 1:39:17 | |
right quickly. Under British justice
system is judged by the way they | 1:39:17 | 1:39:23 | |
react to that as the way that they
implement the law itself. It is | 1:39:23 | 1:39:26 | |
quite clear to me that the justice
system is failing those people who | 1:39:26 | 1:39:31 | |
are still in prison, often after
many years, and who were convicted | 1:39:31 | 1:39:38 | |
before these 28 days, before the
ruling of the Supreme Court. I feel | 1:39:38 | 1:39:43 | |
the direction of needs are lining in
all cases should be judged against | 1:39:43 | 1:39:49 | |
the lesser test of proof that the
conviction is unsafe. This would | 1:39:49 | 1:39:53 | |
mean that people who have been
convicted fairly, equally and | 1:39:53 | 1:39:56 | |
reasonably against the new test that
the Supreme Court has said when they | 1:39:56 | 1:40:05 | |
put right the long-term decision,
they will still be in prison, quite | 1:40:05 | 1:40:08 | |
rightly, and serve the full weight
of the sentence that was passed on | 1:40:08 | 1:40:13 | |
them. However, for those people who
will no longer be found guilty under | 1:40:13 | 1:40:18 | |
the new rules, they will get their
freedom and whatever follows that as | 1:40:18 | 1:40:22 | |
well. And that is where the focus of
this debate, for me, is so | 1:40:22 | 1:40:28 | |
important. The outcome of this would
be right and prop your -- proper, | 1:40:28 | 1:40:40 | |
and would be seen as fair, and
reasonable. For me, as long as | 1:40:40 | 1:40:45 | |
people are being judged against this
ridiculously high bar, British | 1:40:45 | 1:40:49 | |
justice is failing the people in
prison who have been judged under | 1:40:49 | 1:40:53 | |
the original application of a wrong
law. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy | 1:40:53 | 1:40:59 | |
Speaker. And may I join every other
member of this Housing welcoming you | 1:40:59 | 1:41:03 | |
back to the chair. Can I
congratulate the Honourable member | 1:41:03 | 1:41:09 | |
for Manchester Central and my right
honourable friend, the member for | 1:41:09 | 1:41:12 | |
Sutton Coldfield, and they
Honourable member for Tottenham, for | 1:41:12 | 1:41:16 | |
securing this debate. I wanted to
speak on it for a number of reasons. | 1:41:16 | 1:41:20 | |
First, as chair of the justice
committee of this House, it is | 1:41:20 | 1:41:24 | |
important that we do keep this
matter under review, I think, and | 1:41:24 | 1:41:30 | |
our committee has had some
consideration of this matter in the | 1:41:30 | 1:41:32 | |
past and no doubt well again.
Secondly, because I have throughout | 1:41:32 | 1:41:38 | |
my adult life been a practising
barrister, and I concern myself very | 1:41:38 | 1:41:45 | |
much with the justice system, it's
something I'm part of and believe | 1:41:45 | 1:41:49 | |
in. It was a belief in that system
that was one of the reasons that | 1:41:49 | 1:41:53 | |
make me come to this House, and I
think it is massively important that | 1:41:53 | 1:41:57 | |
it does what it is supposed to do.
If we fail to get it right, we | 1:41:57 | 1:42:04 | |
should not be afraid to say so.
Thirdly, I have a constituent whose | 1:42:04 | 1:42:09 | |
partner, and I think he is in the
gallery today, is serving a life | 1:42:09 | 1:42:16 | |
sentence with I think a 23 year
tariff as a result of the | 1:42:16 | 1:42:20 | |
application of the joint enterprise
principle. It was a case of murder, | 1:42:20 | 1:42:28 | |
a situation in which he made no
bones about having been party to an | 1:42:28 | 1:42:34 | |
offence of dishonesty but was
convicted of joint enterprise as the | 1:42:34 | 1:42:41 | |
result of an act of violence
perpetrated by another individual, | 1:42:41 | 1:42:44 | |
so it comes exactly into the cases
that we are concerned with. For all | 1:42:44 | 1:42:49 | |
those reasons, this is an important
debate. | 1:42:49 | 1:42:56 | |
One of the things that has struck me
since I have been in the House is | 1:42:56 | 1:43:00 | |
how in comparison with the past this
House takes comparatively little | 1:43:00 | 1:43:06 | |
interest in the of our criminal
justice law. Through the 60s and | 1:43:06 | 1:43:12 | |
70s, members of this House, through
private Members' Bill or the | 1:43:12 | 1:43:16 | |
pressure they put on government to
make changes in government | 1:43:16 | 1:43:22 | |
legislation, they affected major
changes for the better in members | 1:43:22 | 1:43:25 | |
aspects -- many aspects of our
criminal law, reforms in relation to | 1:43:25 | 1:43:29 | |
homicide and the abolition of the
death penalty, the changes to the | 1:43:29 | 1:43:33 | |
law in relation to the
criminalisation of abortion and | 1:43:33 | 1:43:38 | |
homosexuality, a vast number of
other really important | 1:43:38 | 1:43:49 | |
matters of criminal justice reform
emanated from debating this House. | 1:43:52 | 1:43:54 | |
Sadly too often that gets squeezed
out in the current climate and | 1:43:54 | 1:43:56 | |
perhaps we should debate it more. I
will give way. I am reluctant to | 1:43:56 | 1:43:59 | |
intervene on such a good speech. But
he knows of my interest in terms of | 1:43:59 | 1:44:02 | |
co-chairing the miscarriage of
justice parliamentary group. Does he | 1:44:02 | 1:44:04 | |
not think the criminal Case review
commission is lacking in terms of | 1:44:04 | 1:44:10 | |
not intervening enough or early
enough and persistently enough in | 1:44:10 | 1:44:14 | |
these cases? There are a number of
areas where changes are needed. I | 1:44:14 | 1:44:18 | |
have great respect of the work of
the commission but I am conscious | 1:44:18 | 1:44:23 | |
that they are under pressure both in
terms of resource and terms of | 1:44:23 | 1:44:27 | |
reference. It would not be
unreasonable to look at... Cases of | 1:44:27 | 1:44:35 | |
miscarriage of justice occur. I know
full well. I remember vividly | 1:44:35 | 1:44:40 | |
prosecuting one wants, not in a
murder case, but in a rape case, and | 1:44:40 | 1:44:44 | |
at the time that evidence and legal
test appeared compelling. Thanks to | 1:44:44 | 1:44:48 | |
the work of the criminal cases
review commission, evidence came to | 1:44:48 | 1:44:53 | |
light and I had no hesitation in not
seeking to resist the appeal when it | 1:44:53 | 1:44:56 | |
came to the Court of Appeal for the
second time. It is also important | 1:44:56 | 1:45:01 | |
that they have the means to carry
out their very important job, and | 1:45:01 | 1:45:06 | |
their role as significant. But there
are other gaps that we must look at | 1:45:06 | 1:45:10 | |
as well. Everybody accepts now that
there was a serious departure from | 1:45:10 | 1:45:16 | |
good reason in the case in Privy
Council in, I think, 1958. The odd | 1:45:16 | 1:45:28 | |
thing about it, when you read the
case, is that the judgment which was | 1:45:28 | 1:45:34 | |
described as taking a wrong turn in
the Supreme Court was actually | 1:45:34 | 1:45:39 | |
almost not based upon the principal
facts or arguments that had brought | 1:45:39 | 1:45:44 | |
the appeal to start with. The noble
lord, the member of the Privy | 1:45:44 | 1:45:50 | |
Council, giving the judgment in that
case rather went off on a tangent | 1:45:50 | 1:45:54 | |
and developed what was then regarded
as the concept of parasitic | 1:45:54 | 1:46:01 | |
accessory liability. The matter
could have been resolved on the | 1:46:01 | 1:46:04 | |
facts of the own case. But sat out
very well and what is a detailed | 1:46:04 | 1:46:11 | |
judgment of a very strongly
constituted Supreme Court. I | 1:46:11 | 1:46:13 | |
certainly do not fault the judgment
of the Supreme Court at all. It is | 1:46:13 | 1:46:20 | |
exceedingly well reasoned and it is
significant, not only did the | 1:46:20 | 1:46:23 | |
president of the Supreme Court, the
noble lord, but also that current | 1:46:23 | 1:46:34 | |
president, and then lord chief
justice, took very unusually the | 1:46:34 | 1:46:39 | |
step of sitting in the Supreme Court
because of his experience in | 1:46:39 | 1:46:42 | |
criminal justice matters. Can I just
make this point? Intellectually, the | 1:46:42 | 1:46:49 | |
Supreme Court got the answer right.
The approach which had encompassed | 1:46:49 | 1:46:54 | |
so many people into secondary
liability in homicide of faxes was | 1:46:54 | 1:46:59 | |
wrong. However, I think there remain
practical errors in its application. | 1:46:59 | 1:47:09 | |
Can he explain to me as a layman why
this extremely well written judgment | 1:47:09 | 1:47:13 | |
which I have also read, having been
made, the criminal justice system | 1:47:13 | 1:47:19 | |
has not reacted with enormous alarm
and immediately set in train | 1:47:19 | 1:47:23 | |
reviewing the very large number of
cases which are affected by that | 1:47:23 | 1:47:26 | |
judgment? I think that brings me
to... There is a concern that in | 1:47:26 | 1:47:33 | |
practice the effect to the bringing
of appeals out of time, the wait | 1:47:33 | 1:47:40 | |
been interpreted in cases and
others, it has been particularly | 1:47:40 | 1:47:45 | |
restrictive. I think that is the
difficulty. It is very clear that | 1:47:45 | 1:47:50 | |
the Court of Appeal has taken a very
narrow interpretation of the | 1:47:50 | 1:47:57 | |
substantial injustice point. I do
not think that necessarily had to be | 1:47:57 | 1:48:00 | |
the case on the basis of the case.
Let me just say, it was always made | 1:48:00 | 1:48:06 | |
very clear in the judgment of the
Supreme Court but one should not | 1:48:06 | 1:48:09 | |
assume the case would mean every
conviction for murder on the basis | 1:48:09 | 1:48:13 | |
of joint enterprise would be
overturned. Even where a conviction | 1:48:13 | 1:48:18 | |
for murder was overturned, there
would not be many cases of a | 1:48:18 | 1:48:24 | |
conviction for manslaughter where
that was appropriate but the level | 1:48:24 | 1:48:27 | |
of foresight was less. That is the
important thing we have to look at. | 1:48:27 | 1:48:33 | |
But it is really important
nonetheless we get to a situation | 1:48:33 | 1:48:38 | |
where people are convicted certainly
of offences where they have done | 1:48:38 | 1:48:41 | |
wrong but they should be convicted
of and sentenced for offences which | 1:48:41 | 1:48:45 | |
properly reflect the level of
culpability of their behaviour. And | 1:48:45 | 1:48:51 | |
when we do not get that right, that
undermines, understandably, | 1:48:51 | 1:48:56 | |
confidence in the system. That is my
concern and it is shared by other | 1:48:56 | 1:49:00 | |
honourable members who have ready
spoken about the difficulty in | 1:49:00 | 1:49:03 | |
bringing cases out of time to the
Court of Appeal. I think that is | 1:49:03 | 1:49:07 | |
something that needs to be looked
at. If the president makes it | 1:49:07 | 1:49:11 | |
difficult for the court, perhaps
Parliament and government should | 1:49:11 | 1:49:14 | |
indeed consider it. I observe in
passing that is in any event the | 1:49:14 | 1:49:19 | |
proviso to the criminal appeal act
which would mean that if one is the | 1:49:19 | 1:49:22 | |
case has been heard no material
injustice has occurred, nonetheless, | 1:49:22 | 1:49:28 | |
the conviction can be upheld. At the
moment, we have a double test, test | 1:49:28 | 1:49:33 | |
to bring the appeal out of time and
also the issue of the proviso. The | 1:49:33 | 1:49:36 | |
difference being of course in the
test to bring the appeal out of | 1:49:36 | 1:49:41 | |
time, the onus is on the appellant
to meet the test, whereas | 1:49:41 | 1:49:46 | |
subsequently, the test in relation
to the proviso under the criminal | 1:49:46 | 1:49:50 | |
appeal act, the onus is on the
prosecution. That is something to be | 1:49:50 | 1:49:54 | |
considered. The other point I wanted
to make, when the Justice Committee | 1:49:54 | 1:49:58 | |
looked at the matter with some care
in evidence sessions in the last | 1:49:58 | 1:50:01 | |
Parliament, this has to be seen in
the context of a very unsatisfactory | 1:50:01 | 1:50:05 | |
state of the law of homicide as a
whole. A distinction that we murder | 1:50:05 | 1:50:12 | |
and manslaughter remains extremely
clear in this country. -- a | 1:50:12 | 1:50:16 | |
distinction between. So far
government has not taken up the | 1:50:16 | 1:50:19 | |
virginity of having it examined. The
logical route would be to ask the | 1:50:19 | 1:50:23 | |
Law Commission to examine that. In
evidence to the Justice Committee in | 1:50:23 | 1:50:27 | |
the last Parliament Professor David
Ormerod, deputy chair of the Law | 1:50:27 | 1:50:34 | |
Commission, senior commission for
criminal law, distinguished academic | 1:50:34 | 1:50:40 | |
queens council, he identified
exactly that point and he said this, | 1:50:40 | 1:50:43 | |
the review of the law of homicide
would be still representing the best | 1:50:43 | 1:50:50 | |
solution which could encompass a
decision, enabling us to encompass | 1:50:50 | 1:50:57 | |
the consequences thereafter that
stem from it. Referring to the | 1:50:57 | 1:51:04 | |
Supreme Court's decision, they are
constrained by the facts of the case | 1:51:04 | 1:51:07 | |
and the nature of the argument, that
is the common law system. It was not | 1:51:07 | 1:51:13 | |
possible for them to offer a
comprehensive review relating to | 1:51:13 | 1:51:17 | |
secondary liability which the Law
Commission could do. One of my first | 1:51:17 | 1:51:21 | |
asks of the government as well as
revisiting the test for bringing the | 1:51:21 | 1:51:25 | |
appeal is of time, the second task,
take up the Law Commission's | 1:51:25 | 1:51:29 | |
willingness to examine that area.
There is a vast expertise in the Law | 1:51:29 | 1:51:34 | |
Commission which I believe is
sometimes underused. They can look | 1:51:34 | 1:51:40 | |
dispassionately. They can look at
secondary liability and put it into | 1:51:40 | 1:51:44 | |
the broader difficulties we have
around the Law of manslaughter | 1:51:44 | 1:51:47 | |
because we also have compelling
evidence from criminal | 1:51:47 | 1:51:51 | |
practitioners, representatives of
the Criminal Bar Association, about | 1:51:51 | 1:51:54 | |
the real difficulty the complexity
of giving directions to a jury is in | 1:51:54 | 1:51:59 | |
manslaughter causes and back very
frequently judges having given most | 1:51:59 | 1:52:04 | |
careful directions, after discussion
among council, nonetheless, they | 1:52:04 | 1:52:09 | |
find repeatedly the jury returns
sending back note seeking for | 1:52:09 | 1:52:13 | |
further clarification. The more lack
of clarity there is, the greater the | 1:52:13 | 1:52:17 | |
risk of injustice occurring. I hope
that can be resolved and I would | 1:52:17 | 1:52:24 | |
suggest to the Minister that it
would be a sensible and measured | 1:52:24 | 1:52:29 | |
approach to get an intellectually
sound route forward to this | 1:52:29 | 1:52:33 | |
intractable issue. The other matter
I would ask the Minister to look at | 1:52:33 | 1:52:39 | |
is the review by the criminal
prosecution service of their | 1:52:39 | 1:52:43 | |
guidelines which again we heard
evidence about. The fact the review | 1:52:43 | 1:52:47 | |
is taking place is welcome. The
honourable lady and the member from | 1:52:47 | 1:52:51 | |
Manchester Central and my honourable
friend the Sutton Coldfield have | 1:52:51 | 1:52:55 | |
referred to the disproportionate way
in which the use of prosecutions | 1:52:55 | 1:52:59 | |
using joint enterprise under the
impact on certain communities. It is | 1:52:59 | 1:53:04 | |
a fact the doctrine that developed
some 300 years ago can have effects | 1:53:04 | 1:53:08 | |
upon the Britain and social life of
21st-century Britain which is very | 1:53:08 | 1:53:13 | |
much different from the way it was
being developed by Lord Hale in | 1:53:13 | 1:53:19 | |
about 1670. We do need to have a
means of applying that prosecuting a | 1:53:19 | 1:53:24 | |
real tool in a way that reflects
modern society. I hope the public | 1:53:24 | 1:53:27 | |
interest element of the guidelines
will be strengthened to consider the | 1:53:27 | 1:53:33 | |
appropriateness of using this
particular tool in the way in which | 1:53:33 | 1:53:36 | |
it does given the impact it has upon
certain communities within the UK. I | 1:53:36 | 1:53:42 | |
hope those are constructive
suggestions we can take forward from | 1:53:42 | 1:53:45 | |
this debate. Thank you very much
indeed. It is a pleasure to follow | 1:53:45 | 1:53:50 | |
the honourable gentleman and I take
from his words and from the emotion | 1:53:50 | 1:53:54 | |
behind his words that the door to
the just select committee is now | 1:53:54 | 1:54:00 | |
open and that there may be sometime
in the future when the Justice | 1:54:00 | 1:54:04 | |
Select Committee will consider this
matter because I think that is of | 1:54:04 | 1:54:08 | |
the places where we can seek to
bring an end to this horrendous | 1:54:08 | 1:54:14 | |
disproportionate nightmare, this
stain on British jurisprudence and | 1:54:14 | 1:54:17 | |
this appalling situation in which 40
seconds can lead to 12 years, or | 1:54:17 | 1:54:23 | |
someone who just happens to be
within a group of people can find | 1:54:23 | 1:54:28 | |
themselves facing the best part of
their young life in prison for | 1:54:28 | 1:54:31 | |
something they could not stop even
if they wanted to. And it is often | 1:54:31 | 1:54:35 | |
said that the House is at its worst
when it is unanimous, when we all | 1:54:35 | 1:54:41 | |
agree on something. I think this is
the exception to that rule and I | 1:54:41 | 1:54:45 | |
have to say tribute has already been
paid to Charlotte Hendry, and other | 1:54:45 | 1:54:49 | |
campaigners, I would like to think
that even without the informed and | 1:54:49 | 1:54:53 | |
passionate prodding, people like my
right honourable friend the member | 1:54:53 | 1:54:59 | |
for Manchester Central, the
honourable gentleman, member for | 1:54:59 | 1:55:03 | |
Sutton Coldfield, they would have
put this matter forward because it | 1:55:03 | 1:55:05 | |
is a stain on the British legal
system. The Prime Minister has | 1:55:05 | 1:55:09 | |
referred to the burning sense of
injustice. This injustice is burning | 1:55:09 | 1:55:14 | |
so strongly and brightly, the
smokers virtually choking us and we | 1:55:14 | 1:55:17 | |
cannot see the sense and sanity of
the Laufer the obfuscation that has | 1:55:17 | 1:55:22 | |
come around from this ridiculous
piece of legislation, originally | 1:55:22 | 1:55:26 | |
brought in to deal with noughties,
very often a pastime problems of | 1:55:26 | 1:55:35 | |
this House. -- to deal with
dualling. The idea that there could | 1:55:35 | 1:55:41 | |
be parasitic accessory liability for
people dualling in Hyde Park | 1:55:41 | 1:55:46 | |
hundreds of years ago could somehow
lead to my constituent, a man with a | 1:55:46 | 1:55:50 | |
four-year-old child who he has
hardly seen, facing 12 years in | 1:55:50 | 1:55:54 | |
prison for what happened when he was
with a group of young men, in 40 | 1:55:54 | 1:56:00 | |
seconds, how on earth can we move
from that piece of medieval law to | 1:56:00 | 1:56:05 | |
the present situation in which
people are suffering? I would like | 1:56:05 | 1:56:08 | |
to suggest the reason why something
happened in this area of | 1:56:08 | 1:56:14 | |
jurisprudence in the 1990s comes
down to one word and it has already | 1:56:14 | 1:56:17 | |
been mentioned by the member for
Sutton Coldfield. I can forgive him | 1:56:17 | 1:56:23 | |
for slightly destroying my
stereotype of stern unbending | 1:56:23 | 1:56:27 | |
conservatism because he has shown
himself to be a humane, decent, | 1:56:27 | 1:56:32 | |
informed man on this and I pay full
tribute to him. He used the word | 1:56:32 | 1:56:36 | |
going. In the 1990s, the assumption
was groups of young people, black, | 1:56:36 | 1:56:44 | |
again, they were a threat, somehow
out to destroy society -- he used | 1:56:44 | 1:56:48 | |
the word gang. I would like to think
the senior petulance of the law very | 1:56:48 | 1:57:03 | |
well versed in street culture, but I
think on this particular occasion, | 1:57:03 | 1:57:07 | |
people saw gangs as a threat and
they somehow transposed groups to | 1:57:07 | 1:57:14 | |
gangs -- the senior petulance. This
meconium legislation was brought in | 1:57:14 | 1:57:21 | |
to crush these people, to crush a
threat that did not exist -- this | 1:57:21 | 1:57:27 | |
draconian legislation. It is not a
threat purely confined to one group | 1:57:27 | 1:57:30 | |
of people. How can you have young
people like Kenneth Alexander and | 1:57:30 | 1:57:37 | |
Alex Henry, simply out with friends,
facing this life ahead of them | 1:57:37 | 1:57:43 | |
because of the law? There are few
tasks more melancholy than visiting | 1:57:43 | 1:57:47 | |
the constituent in prison. One of
the frustrations of visiting the | 1:57:47 | 1:57:54 | |
constituent in prison is the
inability to actually assist, to do | 1:57:54 | 1:57:58 | |
more than to sympathise and two in
some way just try to show he is not | 1:57:58 | 1:58:02 | |
forgotten. | 1:58:02 | 1:58:16 | |
It will be inconvenient for the
judicial system to review cases, | 1:58:16 | 1:58:19 | |
some say. Dan writing it will be. I
would take inconvenience for a while | 1:58:19 | 1:58:26 | |
rather than people spending more
time in prison than they need to. | 1:58:26 | 1:58:33 | |
They have the right to call upon the
judicial system to be inconvenient | 1:58:33 | 1:58:37 | |
if necessary. When I first became
involved in this case, when my | 1:58:37 | 1:58:43 | |
constituent's sister, Alex's sister,
contacted me, and I could scarcely | 1:58:43 | 1:58:47 | |
believe. I know the family. He lives
a couple of streets away from it, a | 1:58:47 | 1:58:54 | |
Hanwell man. He soon became a neck
side-mac -- dart-mac the Right | 1:58:54 | 1:59:11 | |
Honourable member for Ashford Road
in June 2014: In my view, the law on | 1:59:11 | 1:59:18 | |
joint enterprise serves a useful
purpose. By bringing people to | 1:59:18 | 1:59:22 | |
justice when they have been involved
in the commission of an offence. I | 1:59:22 | 1:59:25 | |
do not share the view that the law
penalises innocent bystanders are no | 1:59:25 | 1:59:29 | |
longer serves up. It make a valid
purpose. We have no plans to amend | 1:59:29 | 1:59:36 | |
at the moment. I'm sorry, this law
does not form a useful purpose. It | 1:59:36 | 1:59:41 | |
penalises the wrong people, brings
the law into disrepute, and punishes | 1:59:41 | 1:59:46 | |
wholly disproportionately. It is
destroying families, wrecking | 1:59:46 | 1:59:49 | |
individual lives, and above all, it
is disengaging a whole group of | 1:59:49 | 1:59:54 | |
people from the legal process
because when they see a system so | 1:59:54 | 1:59:58 | |
wrong, how can they possibly have
any confidence in that system? I | 1:59:58 | 2:00:04 | |
have no argument today with the
member for Ashford, but I think he | 2:00:04 | 2:00:07 | |
was wrong then. I think that was
probably a brief that came from | 2:00:07 | 2:00:13 | |
someone wearing a wig. As far as I'm
concerned, I think this law has to | 2:00:13 | 2:00:17 | |
be changed and has to be amended. Of
course, I give way. My honourable | 2:00:17 | 2:00:23 | |
friend gives generously the benefit
of the doubt. He was proven to be | 2:00:23 | 2:00:31 | |
wrong and he was reading a brief
because the Supreme Court said the | 2:00:31 | 2:00:36 | |
courts were wrong. Absolutely, the
court said the law had been | 2:00:36 | 2:00:40 | |
interpreted incorrectly, but that's
only half of it. Writing the wrong | 2:00:40 | 2:00:45 | |
is what has to happen now. --
correcting the wrong. I give way. I | 2:00:45 | 2:00:51 | |
am very grateful and he makes a
passionate point about it, and I | 2:00:51 | 2:00:54 | |
agree with him that correcting the
wrong is important. Would he agree | 2:00:54 | 2:01:00 | |
that there is a distinction between
the concept of joint enterprise, | 2:01:00 | 2:01:03 | |
which can in many cases be
reasonable, but it is the extension | 2:01:03 | 2:01:16 | |
of it to the activity of groups of
young people who are one of them may | 2:01:16 | 2:01:21 | |
commit violence and the suggestion
that foresight can be equated with | 2:01:21 | 2:01:26 | |
intent, which is taking that
doctrine beyond the sensible | 2:01:26 | 2:01:30 | |
application. I think he has
indicated a way forward. He knows | 2:01:30 | 2:01:35 | |
the case of Craig and Bentley. In
that case, one of them was hanged. | 2:01:35 | 2:01:42 | |
In joint enterprise. Is it not a
salutary thought that if the present | 2:01:42 | 2:01:49 | |
law on joint enterprise had been
applied when we had the death | 2:01:49 | 2:01:52 | |
penalty, 20 young men would have
been hanged? If we are saying that | 2:01:52 | 2:02:00 | |
everyone in our group is guilty,
would they all have been hanged? The | 2:02:00 | 2:02:05 | |
mere thought about it is so
horrific, so disgusting, that it | 2:02:05 | 2:02:08 | |
surely brings into sharp relief the
insanity of this present | 2:02:08 | 2:02:12 | |
legislation, and the idea that you
can cast is great blanket of | 2:02:12 | 2:02:15 | |
culpability over a whole group of
people - this law is nonsensical, | 2:02:15 | 2:02:21 | |
cruel, brutal, outdated, and it has
to go. Amazingly, the first time we | 2:02:21 | 2:02:28 | |
have debated this subject on the
floor of this House. I hope that | 2:02:28 | 2:02:32 | |
today will be the beginning of that
process which leads not just people | 2:02:32 | 2:02:37 | |
like Alex Henry actually seeing
daylight again, and seeing his child | 2:02:37 | 2:02:41 | |
and family, but all those other
people. When I last saw Alex, he was | 2:02:41 | 2:02:50 | |
keeping his head down, keeping his
nose clean, working in the kitchen. | 2:02:50 | 2:02:54 | |
He had kind words for the staff at
HMP Whitemore. But the hope was | 2:02:54 | 2:03:00 | |
going out of his eyes. You could
actually see him looking at that | 2:03:00 | 2:03:06 | |
long stretch ahead of him, and as
the honourable gentleman mentioned | 2:03:06 | 2:03:12 | |
earlier, this is a man who is
actually on the autism spectrum. In | 2:03:12 | 2:03:18 | |
his appeal, evidence was submitted
on his behalf by none less than FSR | 2:03:18 | 2:03:23 | |
Baron Cohen. You cannot get a higher
authority than that. Was that | 2:03:23 | 2:03:28 | |
opinion accepted? Clearly it wasn't
because my constituent is still in | 2:03:28 | 2:03:32 | |
prison. He is a young autistic man
who, in 40 seconds of his life, | 2:03:32 | 2:03:39 | |
didn't stop something happening. He
didn't do anything wrong, he didn't | 2:03:39 | 2:03:43 | |
stop it happening. Can it really be
right that in this day and age, the | 2:03:43 | 2:03:47 | |
law that we are all sworn to uphold,
that we are part of us are of the | 2:03:47 | 2:03:52 | |
establishment of this country, is
having that effect and that impact | 2:03:52 | 2:03:56 | |
on people, disproportionately on
young black men? Disproportionately | 2:03:56 | 2:04:00 | |
on the innocent. Mr Deputy Speaker,
I profoundly hope that this, today, | 2:04:00 | 2:04:06 | |
is one of those occasions when
something really good comes from | 2:04:06 | 2:04:09 | |
this place, where we put down a
marker to say that, yes,, we thank | 2:04:09 | 2:04:14 | |
the support group for all their
work, but even without them, in our | 2:04:14 | 2:04:19 | |
own heart of hearts, in our own
analysis, we realise that this | 2:04:19 | 2:04:24 | |
stinks. This is wrong. This is
dangerously, destructively, | 2:04:24 | 2:04:30 | |
corrosive me wrong. We have to do
something about it. Let today be the | 2:04:30 | 2:04:35 | |
day that we consign the present
interpretation of joint enterprise | 2:04:35 | 2:04:39 | |
to the dustbin of history, take the
law back into repute, and hopefully | 2:04:39 | 2:04:49 | |
make Kenneth Alexander and Alex
Henry take their rightful places in | 2:04:49 | 2:04:52 | |
society, where we want them to be,
may they be here in the House of | 2:04:52 | 2:04:56 | |
Commons, in the gallery or whatever,
rather than behind bars at the | 2:04:56 | 2:05:00 | |
nation's expense. We cannot go on
like this. Thank you. It is a | 2:05:00 | 2:05:04 | |
pleasure to see you back in your
place, Mr Deputy Speaker, and also a | 2:05:04 | 2:05:10 | |
pleasure to follow the honourable
member for Ealing North. A couple of | 2:05:10 | 2:05:15 | |
points he raises about the local
context, 40 seconds going to 12 | 2:05:15 | 2:05:23 | |
years, and the mention of a more
ancient practice involving due | 2:05:23 | 2:05:31 | |
loving. I would like to think the
member for Manchester Central for | 2:05:31 | 2:05:34 | |
bringing this important debate to
the House. Our justice system needs | 2:05:34 | 2:05:37 | |
to recognise the context in which
much crime happens. There is a | 2:05:37 | 2:05:45 | |
social context. There is more than
just an individual engaging with and | 2:05:45 | 2:05:49 | |
committing crime. Friends and family
have a huge impact, huge influence | 2:05:49 | 2:05:55 | |
on people's lives and what they do.
The moral context and framework in | 2:05:55 | 2:06:00 | |
which those people act. If an
individual gets in with the wrong | 2:06:00 | 2:06:05 | |
crowd, perhaps again, perhaps a mob,
and those people encourage, force, | 2:06:05 | 2:06:12 | |
direct, perhaps egg on people to
commit crimes, the Justice system | 2:06:12 | 2:06:19 | |
has to take account of their actions
and there has to be that justice. | 2:06:19 | 2:06:23 | |
This is what friends and families of
the victims, so often murdered, | 2:06:23 | 2:06:28 | |
would want and expect. I would just
like to support the points the | 2:06:28 | 2:06:37 | |
honourable lady made about
proportionality, improving that | 2:06:37 | 2:06:42 | |
sense. The gathering and
presentation of accurate data is | 2:06:42 | 2:06:48 | |
important. It is important to have
good data to base these decisions on | 2:06:48 | 2:06:52 | |
in the future. And bringing forward
the CPS review. In conclusion, I'm | 2:06:52 | 2:06:57 | |
not a lawyer and I don't want to
keep you for too long, I would just | 2:06:57 | 2:07:03 | |
recognise that following the Supreme
Court ruling of February 2016, the | 2:07:03 | 2:07:08 | |
CPS consulted widely on new legal
guidance for prosecutors in cases of | 2:07:08 | 2:07:12 | |
secondary liability, and I would
hope that the Minister agrees that | 2:07:12 | 2:07:19 | |
honourable members and their
constituents would be best served by | 2:07:19 | 2:07:22 | |
waiting for that guidance to be
issued. David Lammy. Can I | 2:07:22 | 2:07:33 | |
congratulate my honourable friend,
the member for Manchester Central, | 2:07:33 | 2:07:38 | |
in bringing this debate, and in the
way she has gone about representing | 2:07:38 | 2:07:43 | |
her constituents, many of whom I met
a few weeks ago, who were caught up | 2:07:43 | 2:07:48 | |
in this terrible nightmare. And also
the Right Honourable member for | 2:07:48 | 2:07:53 | |
Sutton Coldfield, whom I know is
championing and taking up many of | 2:07:53 | 2:07:58 | |
these issues consistently over the
last few years in this House. The | 2:07:58 | 2:08:05 | |
doctrine of common purpose, of joint
enterprise, is a common-law | 2:08:05 | 2:08:08 | |
doctrine, very much derived from
judicial decisions, not legislation | 2:08:08 | 2:08:13 | |
passed by Parliament. As has been
said, it is now time for Parliament | 2:08:13 | 2:08:21 | |
to reflect hard on where we have
arrived at, and hard on the fact | 2:08:21 | 2:08:27 | |
that the nature of this debate is
essentially about juveniles, young | 2:08:27 | 2:08:34 | |
people, as young as 14, who are
looking at significant stretches of | 2:08:34 | 2:08:41 | |
their lives behind bars. This debate
is about what we have come to | 2:08:41 | 2:08:48 | |
describe as gangs. We don't use
gangs, Mr Deputy Speaker, when we're | 2:08:48 | 2:08:56 | |
talking about the Bullington club.
We do use gangs when we're talking | 2:08:56 | 2:09:00 | |
about black youth in constituencies
like mine, all right youth in | 2:09:00 | 2:09:08 | |
constituencies like, say, Salford is
in the north-west of England. And it | 2:09:08 | 2:09:18 | |
is for that reason that it is so
important that we look hard on a | 2:09:18 | 2:09:22 | |
doctrine that stretches back to
1846, when two cart drivers engaged | 2:09:22 | 2:09:28 | |
in a race that killed a pedestrian.
Throughout the 20th century, further | 2:09:28 | 2:09:34 | |
court judgments clarified the joint
enterprise doctrine in the case of | 2:09:34 | 2:09:39 | |
murder, even if there is no plan to
murder and one party kills while | 2:09:39 | 2:09:44 | |
carrying out the plan to do
something else, for example, | 2:09:44 | 2:09:49 | |
probably, the other participants can
still be found guilty. Mr Speaker, | 2:09:49 | 2:09:53 | |
the use of this doctrine has been
criticised by academics, by legal | 2:09:53 | 2:10:00 | |
practitioners, by the House of
Commons select committee, and I want | 2:10:00 | 2:10:04 | |
to associate myself with all those
remarks, and the fantastic work of | 2:10:04 | 2:10:09 | |
the support group, particularly over
the last two years. I'm very | 2:10:09 | 2:10:17 | |
concerned, Mr Speaker, that
following my review, it is important | 2:10:17 | 2:10:24 | |
that we recognise in this country
that in black and particularly | 2:10:24 | 2:10:30 | |
Muslim communities, there is
tremendous concern at the face of | 2:10:30 | 2:10:36 | |
our judiciary. The judiciary does
not appear to be independent to | 2:10:36 | 2:10:43 | |
those communities. Justice in those
communities is not perceived to be | 2:10:43 | 2:10:48 | |
blind. It is why I was so
disappointed, Mr Deputy Speaker, | 2:10:48 | 2:10:52 | |
that when I proposed a target in my
review which I did for the | 2:10:52 | 2:10:58 | |
Government, and it is not
prescriptive, merely a goal. It was | 2:10:58 | 2:11:05 | |
so roundly rejected by our senior
judiciary and by the Government. I | 2:11:05 | 2:11:10 | |
am also concerned that the
independence that our judiciary say | 2:11:10 | 2:11:13 | |
they have, and quite rightly have in
our democracy, means that they are | 2:11:13 | 2:11:18 | |
hugely detached from the communities
that we're talking about today. They | 2:11:18 | 2:11:22 | |
don't have to defend their actions
in Tottenham Town Hall or Manchester | 2:11:22 | 2:11:26 | |
City Hall. They are never present in
those communities. They don't have | 2:11:26 | 2:11:31 | |
the kind of surgeries that we do.
And it's really important that they | 2:11:31 | 2:11:36 | |
reflect hard, that within that
common law tradition, there has been | 2:11:36 | 2:11:40 | |
progress in other jurisdictions -
Canada, Australia, New Zealand | 2:11:40 | 2:11:45 | |
cinema in terms of proximity and
diversity in relation to the | 2:11:45 | 2:11:50 | |
judiciary, but in this country, we
appear to be stuck. | 2:11:50 | 2:12:02 | |
-- New Zealand - in terms of
proximity... Joint enterprise has | 2:12:03 | 2:12:16 | |
long been justified on the basis
that it sends a wider social message | 2:12:16 | 2:12:22 | |
by Government messages of both
Conservative and Labour stripes. I | 2:12:22 | 2:12:28 | |
won't quote from the former
Secretary of State, who was Justice | 2:12:28 | 2:12:34 | |
Secretary in 2011. I think
honourable members will recognise | 2:12:34 | 2:12:37 | |
that I don't really need to. They
can understand what his views would | 2:12:37 | 2:12:40 | |
be, but Lord Faulkner, in 2010, said
a joint enterprise, the message the | 2:12:40 | 2:12:46 | |
lowest sending out is that we are
very willing to see people convicted | 2:12:46 | 2:12:49 | |
of a part of gang violence, and that
violence ends in somebody's death. | 2:12:49 | 2:12:55 | |
Is it unfair? You have got to decide
not does the justice system later | 2:12:55 | 2:13:03 | |
people wrongly being convicted? I
think the real question is, do you | 2:13:03 | 2:13:07 | |
want a law as Draconian as our law
is, which says jury scan convicted | 2:13:07 | 2:13:11 | |
even if you are quite peripheral
members of the gang which killed? | 2:13:11 | 2:13:19 | |
The former Lord Chancellor Lord
Faulkner got it wrong, I want to | 2:13:19 | 2:13:22 | |
say. And the perception is, this is
very wrong, in the sort of | 2:13:22 | 2:13:26 | |
communities I think they're talking
about today. | 2:13:26 | 2:13:33 | |
Joint enterprise raises significant
issues of miscarriage of justice | 2:13:33 | 2:13:36 | |
which must command the attention of
this House and of our wider justice | 2:13:36 | 2:13:40 | |
system. I felt the member for giving
way and also for the record, my | 2:13:40 | 2:13:49 | |
thanks for the work you have done. I
want to thank my friend who is a | 2:13:49 | 2:13:56 | |
member from Manchester Central, the
neighbouring constituency to mine. | 2:13:56 | 2:14:01 | |
This issue that has touched lives of
my constituents too. I spoke | 2:14:01 | 2:14:08 | |
yesterday to someone whose son was
sent to prison for 30 years under | 2:14:08 | 2:14:15 | |
joint enterprise. Being the former
serving police officer in the | 2:14:15 | 2:14:19 | |
Greater Manchester Police and also a
practising solicitor, the concern is | 2:14:19 | 2:14:24 | |
that while the Supreme Court has
said the law has taken the wrong | 2:14:24 | 2:14:28 | |
turn, nothing has been done to put
that right. That is not acceptable. | 2:14:28 | 2:14:33 | |
Secondly, what is becoming clear,
listening to my honourable friends, | 2:14:33 | 2:14:38 | |
the BMA and the working class
defendants of represented as the | 2:14:38 | 2:14:47 | |
gang... I hope you will agree this
is essential that we have greater | 2:14:47 | 2:14:51 | |
transparency through official
statistics to the make-up of joint | 2:14:51 | 2:14:56 | |
enterprise defendants. Thank you. My
honourable friend makes his point | 2:14:56 | 2:15:02 | |
exactly and he is quite right. I
think the issue is, what were to | 2:15:02 | 2:15:07 | |
happen if the principal intent was
graver than the assessor is and in | 2:15:07 | 2:15:13 | |
all of the cases mentioned, that is
absolutely the case? What would | 2:15:13 | 2:15:17 | |
happen if the outcome of whatever
act could the principle carries out | 2:15:17 | 2:15:22 | |
is far graver than the accessory was
aware of? And again, getting into | 2:15:22 | 2:15:27 | |
the foresight and intent of a young
adult is next to impossible with all | 2:15:27 | 2:15:34 | |
of what we know in modern times
about Child psychology. It is | 2:15:34 | 2:15:40 | |
absolutely right we do not see young
people convicted in those cases. He | 2:15:40 | 2:15:49 | |
is making a very powerful case and
perhaps I could support him in this | 2:15:49 | 2:15:54 | |
way, evidence to the Justice
Committee made clear that | 2:15:54 | 2:15:57 | |
practitioners felt it would be of
great assistance to the jury in | 2:15:57 | 2:16:01 | |
deciding these issues if there was a
statutory framework around which we | 2:16:01 | 2:16:05 | |
could work. We did that with the
theft act, replacing out of date | 2:16:05 | 2:16:09 | |
common law in the past. In the Jogee
case, the trial judge in the first | 2:16:09 | 2:16:16 | |
instance was this country's first
black woman High Court judge but she | 2:16:16 | 2:16:20 | |
was obliged to follow the rules of
precedent. If there had been a | 2:16:20 | 2:16:24 | |
review, the situation might have
been different. He is quite right | 2:16:24 | 2:16:28 | |
and he makes the case that it is
really for this house now to get to | 2:16:28 | 2:16:32 | |
thinking about these matters. He
will be aware that an accessory | 2:16:32 | 2:16:38 | |
party can be liable under joint
enterprise, even if they withdraw | 2:16:38 | 2:16:42 | |
from the group before any crime is
committed. Many honourable members | 2:16:42 | 2:16:48 | |
will think of examples of a group of
students in a playground or Park | 2:16:48 | 2:16:54 | |
where someone talked about teaching
someone a lesson. In fact, we might | 2:16:54 | 2:16:58 | |
recall that in our own lives when we
were younger. One of those | 2:16:58 | 2:17:04 | |
individuals thinks that teaching a
lesson involves significant | 2:17:04 | 2:17:10 | |
violence, salt or even something
that ends up in murder, and just | 2:17:10 | 2:17:15 | |
because you as a group discussed
teaching a lesson, you end up with | 2:17:15 | 2:17:19 | |
prison on murder -- assault. We know
of this House when members have | 2:17:19 | 2:17:24 | |
picked up the mace, former leader of
the SNP, the honourable member Lord | 2:17:24 | 2:17:30 | |
Heseltine, if you picked up the mace
and an older Members of Parliament | 2:17:30 | 2:17:34 | |
thought it was coming towards them
and had a heart attack and died, you | 2:17:34 | 2:17:39 | |
would be in serious trouble. But if
you discussed it with your | 2:17:39 | 2:17:44 | |
colleagues beforehand, you too would
be in serious trouble. That is our | 2:17:44 | 2:17:50 | |
whole political party, on this
occasion, the SNP, that might have | 2:17:50 | 2:17:53 | |
been heading towards this. That is
how ridiculous it has become and why | 2:17:53 | 2:17:59 | |
we need urgent, urgent, urgent
review. Let me just say too, we are | 2:17:59 | 2:18:04 | |
having this debate at a point in
which politicians have said we have | 2:18:04 | 2:18:08 | |
to crack down on gangs and that is
why we are doing this. Yet has it | 2:18:08 | 2:18:12 | |
worked? Knife crime is rising. In
England and Wales, there were over | 2:18:12 | 2:18:25 | |
36,000 knife offences in the last 12
months to the end of June. Hospital | 2:18:25 | 2:18:30 | |
admissions as a result of knife
crime and sharp objects is rising. | 2:18:30 | 2:18:35 | |
We have a real problem in London.
The mayor of London is seeking to | 2:18:35 | 2:18:39 | |
deal with it. Has it had the effect
people suggested? It hasn't and the | 2:18:39 | 2:18:48 | |
reason it hasn't this because it is
not mine is driving knife crime, it | 2:18:48 | 2:18:54 | |
is serious and organised criminals,
gangsters and kingpins, driving | 2:18:54 | 2:18:56 | |
knife crime. Because they are
driving the trafficking of serious | 2:18:56 | 2:19:04 | |
drugs, cocaine, driving turf wars,
making some of the communities we | 2:19:04 | 2:19:08 | |
represent more violent. The 14, 15,
16-year-old, knocked up on joint | 2:19:08 | 2:19:17 | |
enterprise, they do not know
anything about getting a tonne of | 2:19:17 | 2:19:21 | |
cocaine from Bolivia, it is the
gangsters that we must go after, and | 2:19:21 | 2:19:24 | |
we are hearing very little about
that. We know the Ministry of | 2:19:24 | 2:19:31 | |
Justice's own research into joint
enterprise convictions understands | 2:19:31 | 2:19:36 | |
the psychology of young people. It
understands their need, for | 2:19:36 | 2:19:42 | |
teenagers and juveniles, to want to
belong to a group, it understands a | 2:19:42 | 2:19:47 | |
predisposition towards risk, toward
seeking excitement, towards reckless | 2:19:47 | 2:19:51 | |
behaviour. It understands there and
ability to disobey pellet their | 2:19:51 | 2:19:57 | |
impulses. They have less
self-controlled ashlar cred to this | 2:19:57 | 2:20:03 | |
inhibit their impulses. All of us
raising teenagers or have raised | 2:20:03 | 2:20:08 | |
teenagers, we recognise all of those
characteristics. Are we really to | 2:20:08 | 2:20:14 | |
throw young men on the black and
white, in prison because they are | 2:20:14 | 2:20:22 | |
young? -- young men, black and
white. I have to macro boys at home. | 2:20:22 | 2:20:30 | |
They navigate the streets of North
London on their way to school. One | 2:20:30 | 2:20:33 | |
of them particularly goes through
areas which are high knife crime | 2:20:33 | 2:20:38 | |
areas. I am raising boys that would
never ever take a knife out of their | 2:20:38 | 2:20:45 | |
house and use it on anybody else. I
am absolutely sure about that. But | 2:20:45 | 2:20:49 | |
can I say that if something was
going on in the Park that one of | 2:20:49 | 2:20:56 | |
them might not drift towards the
action? Hand on heart as a father, I | 2:20:56 | 2:21:02 | |
cannot say that. I do not want ever
to have to visit one of my own | 2:21:02 | 2:21:07 | |
children in prison. None of us
should want ever to have to visit | 2:21:07 | 2:21:12 | |
young people in prison. None of us
should want that waste. None of us | 2:21:12 | 2:21:16 | |
should want that criminal record. It
is time this House acted. I am | 2:21:16 | 2:21:27 | |
grateful to be called to contribute
to this important debate. Always a | 2:21:27 | 2:21:31 | |
pleasure to follow the right
honourable gentleman from Tottenham. | 2:21:31 | 2:21:35 | |
I congratulate those honourable and
right honourable colleagues for | 2:21:35 | 2:21:38 | |
securing the debate, especially my
honourable friend from Manchester | 2:21:38 | 2:21:42 | |
Central, and the Backbench Business
Committee for allocating the time. I | 2:21:42 | 2:21:47 | |
must confess, when my constituent,
when she first came to see me in | 2:21:47 | 2:21:52 | |
2012 about her son's imprisonment, I
thought it a straightforward case of | 2:21:52 | 2:21:59 | |
am doing her best for her children
despite they had offended. I want to | 2:21:59 | 2:22:03 | |
commend her for a pressing need to
look beyond a concerned mother and | 2:22:03 | 2:22:07 | |
to examine the Jengba campaign,
joint enterprise not guilty by | 2:22:07 | 2:22:14 | |
association, and I attended their
briefing here a few months ago and I | 2:22:14 | 2:22:17 | |
think most of the colleagues here
today were at that briefing and I | 2:22:17 | 2:22:21 | |
was shocked by the consistent
reports of case after case of mostly | 2:22:21 | 2:22:26 | |
young men and as we have heard
disproportionately so many from | 2:22:26 | 2:22:33 | |
black and minority ethnic
communities who had not only been | 2:22:33 | 2:22:36 | |
convicted but also handed the
severest of sentences. I commend | 2:22:36 | 2:22:41 | |
Jengba for their campaign and the
briefing for today. I should say, as | 2:22:41 | 2:22:46 | |
others have, that I have not heard
anyone say all those locked up all | 2:22:46 | 2:22:50 | |
innocent. Some may well be. But the
message I him strongly is that | 2:22:50 | 2:22:58 | |
although some may be, many are
guilty of much lesser offences, some | 2:22:58 | 2:23:04 | |
much less serious offences, and
therefore, the terrorist handed down | 2:23:04 | 2:23:09 | |
by the judges seem questionable at
least. -- the tariffs. The numbers | 2:23:09 | 2:23:13 | |
are huge. Efforts to assess just how
many are difficult. The Ministry of | 2:23:13 | 2:23:20 | |
Justice has not produced it sticks
of those found guilty on joint | 2:23:20 | 2:23:23 | |
enterprise and one has to ask why.
-- produced statistics. It is | 2:23:23 | 2:23:28 | |
estimated between 1800 and over 4500
people have been prosecuted for | 2:23:28 | 2:23:38 | |
murder using joint enterprise as
part of the charge. I am getting | 2:23:38 | 2:23:41 | |
ahead of myself. The fundamental
flaw in using joint enterprise to | 2:23:41 | 2:23:47 | |
prosecute for murder was exposed as
we have heard in speech after speech | 2:23:47 | 2:23:52 | |
by the Supreme Court in 2016. It
held then that the law had taken a | 2:23:52 | 2:23:58 | |
wrong turn, that has been mentioned
by every Speaker so far. That has to | 2:23:58 | 2:24:03 | |
be one of the weakest euphemisms we
have ever heard. But the law had | 2:24:03 | 2:24:09 | |
taken a wrong turn in 1984 in a case
and overturned the verdict. Jogee | 2:24:09 | 2:24:20 | |
was retried and found not guilty of
murder but guilty of manslaughter. | 2:24:20 | 2:24:27 | |
The sentence was replaced by an
appropriate sentence for | 2:24:27 | 2:24:30 | |
manslaughter. The Supreme Court also
ruled that only cases prior to Jogee | 2:24:30 | 2:24:35 | |
could go back to the Court of Appeal
if they could prove their conviction | 2:24:35 | 2:24:39 | |
was a substantial injustice. Despite
the hundreds of cases at least, the | 2:24:39 | 2:24:45 | |
ministry cannot or will not say how
many there are, the Court of Appeal | 2:24:45 | 2:24:50 | |
has denied every single joint
enterprise appeal. Incidentally, as | 2:24:50 | 2:24:54 | |
we have also heard, the youngest
person to receive a life sentence | 2:24:54 | 2:24:59 | |
was just 12 years old when charged.
Turning to the law, the common law | 2:24:59 | 2:25:05 | |
doctrine of joint enterprise for the
purposes of this debate covers two | 2:25:05 | 2:25:09 | |
types. Assisting and encouraging,
aiding and abetting, and I do not | 2:25:09 | 2:25:14 | |
have anything to say on that. The
other is parasitic accessory | 2:25:14 | 2:25:18 | |
liability, which I find quite
troubling. Even the title sounds | 2:25:18 | 2:25:24 | |
like the accused must be guilty of
something or some form of vicious | 2:25:24 | 2:25:29 | |
disease. It is controversial as a
secondary offender would not need to | 2:25:29 | 2:25:34 | |
attend the crime but merely be able
to have foreseen it. Traditionally | 2:25:34 | 2:25:39 | |
to be convicted of murder, it had to
be proven that the killer intended | 2:25:39 | 2:25:43 | |
to kill or at least really seriously
injure. This was quite a shift and | 2:25:43 | 2:25:49 | |
lead to hundreds if not thousands of
convictions over 30 years since | 2:25:49 | 2:25:55 | |
1985. The Supreme Court decision in
2016, it must call statistically at | 2:25:55 | 2:26:02 | |
least some of those convictions into
question. The decision, however, | 2:26:02 | 2:26:08 | |
could only apply to out of time
appeals if they could prove a | 2:26:08 | 2:26:12 | |
substantial injustice occurred in
the case. This was tested in 2016. | 2:26:12 | 2:26:17 | |
The case needed to prove
categorically that a change in the | 2:26:17 | 2:26:22 | |
law would have made a difference.
The criminal appeal act of 1968 | 2:26:22 | 2:26:29 | |
allows the court to quash a
conviction for the misapplication of | 2:26:29 | 2:26:34 | |
law might have made a difference
rather than would have made a | 2:26:34 | 2:26:38 | |
difference. Since the Jogee
decision, none of that a hundred | 2:26:38 | 2:26:42 | |
men, women and children currently
supported by the campaign Jengba | 2:26:42 | 2:26:46 | |
have successfully appealed their
conviction, not one. Turning to my | 2:26:46 | 2:26:50 | |
own constituents, they were both
sentenced to 16.5 years for a murder | 2:26:50 | 2:26:59 | |
committed by another man. I will not
go into great detail but suffice to | 2:26:59 | 2:27:03 | |
say, they maintained they had no
knowledge of the guilty party's | 2:27:03 | 2:27:07 | |
intention and one was a youth worker
and had never been in trouble | 2:27:07 | 2:27:10 | |
before. It might be that there is
more to the case but to be found | 2:27:10 | 2:27:15 | |
guilty by association seems worthy
of fresh examination, especially | 2:27:15 | 2:27:20 | |
when it was the Supreme Court that
ruled that the law had taken a wrong | 2:27:20 | 2:27:24 | |
turn. It certainly did for the
Johnson brothers. They want a fresh | 2:27:24 | 2:27:29 | |
hearing with that evidence presented
in the light of the Jogee ruling but | 2:27:29 | 2:27:35 | |
they have been denied. I cannot know
all the facts and like every | 2:27:35 | 2:27:38 | |
colleague, I do all I can to support
the police in a difficult job they | 2:27:38 | 2:27:44 | |
do, but something here does not feel
right. In conclusion, Jengba calling | 2:27:44 | 2:27:51 | |
for the abolition of parasitic
accessory liability charging, CPS | 2:27:51 | 2:27:56 | |
guidance is still very confusing, as
my honourable friend from Manchester | 2:27:56 | 2:28:00 | |
Central explained in her excellent
speech, they are calling for the | 2:28:00 | 2:28:05 | |
abolition of child life sentences
and for the Ministry of Justice to | 2:28:05 | 2:28:08 | |
collect data on all joint enterprise
secondary party convictions. | 2:28:08 | 2:28:18 | |
Is this is a common-law used against
common people that makes no common | 2:28:18 | 2:28:21 | |
sense. I have to say, I believe they
have a very strong case. Thank you, | 2:28:21 | 2:28:28 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker I would also
like to congratulate the members for | 2:28:28 | 2:28:31 | |
Manchester Central, Bromley in
Chislehurst, Sutton Coldfield and | 2:28:31 | 2:28:37 | |
Tottenham for bringing this debate,
and also to the backbench business | 2:28:37 | 2:28:41 | |
committee for enabling us to have
this time today. I also represent | 2:28:41 | 2:28:47 | |
some of the family of Alex Henry, as
my colleague from Ealing North went | 2:28:47 | 2:28:56 | |
into in some detail. Alex was
involved in a fatal street fight in | 2:28:56 | 2:29:00 | |
2013 and has spent four years in
prison, serving 19 years on the | 2:29:00 | 2:29:04 | |
joint enterprise. His mother is my
constituent and last October I met | 2:29:04 | 2:29:09 | |
her, Alex's sister Charlotte, and my
honourable friend from Ealing North, | 2:29:09 | 2:29:16 | |
and the honourable member for Sutton
Coldfield, where I really came to | 2:29:16 | 2:29:21 | |
understand the importance and
significance of joint enterprise and | 2:29:21 | 2:29:23 | |
the need to review the law. So, in
August 2013, Alex Henry went | 2:29:23 | 2:29:29 | |
shopping with three friends. A
confrontation took place that lasted | 2:29:29 | 2:29:35 | |
just over 42nd. It's not clear why
it took place. It may have been | 2:29:35 | 2:29:40 | |
triggered by staring. One young man
produced a knife from within the bag | 2:29:40 | 2:29:45 | |
-- it took just over 40 seconds. The
man with a knife pleaded to delete | 2:29:45 | 2:29:54 | |
the guilty to murder and GBH with
intent and was sentenced to 22 | 2:29:54 | 2:29:59 | |
years. Alex Henry received 19 years,
despite never touching the knife | 2:29:59 | 2:30:06 | |
being aware of its existence, only
format years less. Since his | 2:30:06 | 2:30:12 | |
conviction, his family have
campaigned tirelessly with JENGbA, | 2:30:12 | 2:30:17 | |
the Joint Enterprise Not Guilty by
Association, to reform the law of | 2:30:17 | 2:30:20 | |
joint enterprise. The injustice was
that to be found guilty, the Crown | 2:30:20 | 2:30:28 | |
needed to prove that the defendant
had inflicted the fatal harm. Under | 2:30:28 | 2:30:36 | |
joint enterprise, the crowd only
need to prove that the defendant | 2:30:36 | 2:30:39 | |
foresaw the possibility that the
crime might happen, rather than | 2:30:39 | 2:30:42 | |
intend and know that it would
happen. It means it is easier to | 2:30:42 | 2:30:46 | |
prove the guilt of the accessory
compared to the principal offender. | 2:30:46 | 2:30:50 | |
In Alex's case, the Crown needed to
prove that Alex foresaw the | 2:30:50 | 2:30:55 | |
possibility that the stabbing might
happen rather than intend and know | 2:30:55 | 2:30:58 | |
it would happen. There was no
evidence in his case that he knew | 2:30:58 | 2:31:01 | |
about the knife and therefore that
someone might be stabbed. However, | 2:31:01 | 2:31:05 | |
the crowd persuaded the jury by
arguing that friends tell each other | 2:31:05 | 2:31:10 | |
everything. Therefore, Alex must
have known that the other man in | 2:31:10 | 2:31:13 | |
possession of the knife that they...
And Alex must have seen the | 2:31:13 | 2:31:23 | |
possibility of its use if any
altercation were to arise during the | 2:31:23 | 2:31:26 | |
course of the shopping trip. Friends
tell each other everything, | 2:31:26 | 2:31:31 | |
therefore it could have been
foreseen. What a shocking indictment | 2:31:31 | 2:31:34 | |
of the way the law works, to lock up
a young man for so long. In February | 2:31:34 | 2:31:40 | |
2016, the joint enterprise law was
successfully reformed, as we have | 2:31:40 | 2:31:44 | |
heard. Rather than foresight, the
Crown only need to prove that the | 2:31:44 | 2:31:48 | |
defendant intentionally encouraged
or assisted the principal offender | 2:31:48 | 2:31:52 | |
while knowing the crime would take
place. The law has convicted | 2:31:52 | 2:31:56 | |
thousands of men, women and
children, 800 of whom are being | 2:31:56 | 2:32:00 | |
supported by JENGbA. The courts have
ruled that the change in the law | 2:32:00 | 2:32:03 | |
will have no automatic retrospective
effect for out of time appeals, | 2:32:03 | 2:32:10 | |
which is every case convicted 28
days or more before the change in | 2:32:10 | 2:32:13 | |
the law. Instead, those out of time
appeals will only be afforded an | 2:32:13 | 2:32:18 | |
appeal if the defender can prove
there has been a substantial | 2:32:18 | 2:32:21 | |
injustice in his case, which means
proving that the change in law would | 2:32:21 | 2:32:24 | |
without doubt have made a
difference. In 2016, -- the | 2:32:24 | 2:32:36 | |
evidential bar has not been raised
by Jogee. Proof of the defendant's | 2:32:36 | 2:32:43 | |
intent to encourage, coupled with
his knowledge that the crime would | 2:32:43 | 2:32:46 | |
happen, can be inferred from the
friendship of the co-defendants, the | 2:32:46 | 2:32:51 | |
same weight foresight was inferred
before Jogee. If nothing more | 2:32:51 | 2:32:56 | |
evidentially needs to be shown since
the change in law, how can a | 2:32:56 | 2:33:00 | |
defendant prove that the change in
law would have made a difference? | 2:33:00 | 2:33:05 | |
Comparatively, those suffering need
only show that the conviction was | 2:33:05 | 2:33:13 | |
unsafe and that that... So far, no
out of time case has succeeded on | 2:33:13 | 2:33:20 | |
appeal, including that of Alex,
which was also rejected. My | 2:33:20 | 2:33:23 | |
honourable friend from Tottenham in
his excellent report on black and | 2:33:23 | 2:33:31 | |
minority ethnic people in the
justice system quite rightly shone a | 2:33:31 | 2:33:35 | |
light on the unacceptable inequality
is, for young people particularly | 2:33:35 | 2:33:43 | |
from those communities. There are
two other factors at play which I | 2:33:43 | 2:33:47 | |
think are relevant in joint
enterprise. That of maturity, and | 2:33:47 | 2:33:50 | |
many of the people convicted are not
within full maturity. The justice | 2:33:50 | 2:33:59 | |
system is beginning slowly to
understand that young men under 25 | 2:33:59 | 2:34:03 | |
are not mature and need to be
considered slightly differently in | 2:34:03 | 2:34:06 | |
legal cases. Majority must be a
factor. The other factor is that of | 2:34:06 | 2:34:12 | |
autism. In Alex Henry's case, his
diagnosis of autism is important. | 2:34:12 | 2:34:22 | |
Despite having many problems for an
early age, no one had suggested to | 2:34:22 | 2:34:29 | |
Alex's family or to him that he
might be on the spectrum until a few | 2:34:29 | 2:34:34 | |
of the documentary made about the
case wrote to the family. The family | 2:34:34 | 2:34:40 | |
then arranged for Alex to be
assessed by Professor Simon Baron | 2:34:40 | 2:34:46 | |
Cohen, the leading academic on
autism and Asperger's syndrome in | 2:34:46 | 2:34:49 | |
this country. His report on Alex
states it is incredibly unlikely | 2:34:49 | 2:34:55 | |
that Alex could have foreseen what
would or might have happened in | 2:34:55 | 2:34:59 | |
those 40 seconds since due to his
autism he cannot predict the | 2:34:59 | 2:35:03 | |
actions, behaviours or intentions of
others. The Court of Appeal rejected | 2:35:03 | 2:35:07 | |
this because Alex's mother has a
Ph.D. In psychology, so she could | 2:35:07 | 2:35:12 | |
have coached Alex in how to act
autistic. This is all... Shocking. | 2:35:12 | 2:35:19 | |
The Court also said they couldn't
understand why Alex was diagnosed so | 2:35:19 | 2:35:23 | |
late in life despite several
previous assessments which did not | 2:35:23 | 2:35:29 | |
result in a diagnosis. I want to
very strongly support what the | 2:35:29 | 2:35:34 | |
honourable lady is saying about the
judgment of the court in respect of | 2:35:34 | 2:35:41 | |
autism in that case. I have read the
case, and I find, as a layman, the | 2:35:41 | 2:35:46 | |
response of the court completely
inexplicable. Thank you so much to | 2:35:46 | 2:35:52 | |
the honourable member because
anybody who has had any contact with | 2:35:52 | 2:35:55 | |
people, particularly adults,
diagnosed with autism, we know often | 2:35:55 | 2:36:01 | |
that autism is not diagnosed earlier
many people go through many | 2:36:01 | 2:36:05 | |
difficulties in their life before
the diagnosis is found, if ever. And | 2:36:05 | 2:36:09 | |
Alex was one of those unlucky in
this situation. So, because autism | 2:36:09 | 2:36:14 | |
is an invisible disorder, many
assessments found traits of autism, | 2:36:14 | 2:36:21 | |
as highlighted in Professor Baron
Cohen's report. This could be a | 2:36:21 | 2:36:26 | |
factor in many appeals. The refusal
on Alex's appeal has left the family | 2:36:26 | 2:36:33 | |
devastated. They are determined to
see that he is proved innocent. In | 2:36:33 | 2:36:40 | |
their view, he is not a murderer,
and in my view too, from what I know | 2:36:40 | 2:36:44 | |
of the case. So, how many people in
prison under joint enterprise have | 2:36:44 | 2:36:51 | |
undiagnosed autism? We need to look
at this as well. Anyway, since | 2:36:51 | 2:36:57 | |
Alex's appeal was rejected, his
sister applied to challenge the | 2:36:57 | 2:37:00 | |
substantial injustice at the Supreme
Court, and his family are also | 2:37:00 | 2:37:04 | |
taking his case to the European
Court of Human Rights. They believe | 2:37:04 | 2:37:09 | |
that joint enterprise breach Article
seven of the unique -- EC HR. Those | 2:37:09 | 2:37:18 | |
convicted under joint enterprise
were not convicted under a true law, | 2:37:18 | 2:37:21 | |
so their presumption of innocence
under article six remains. I now | 2:37:21 | 2:37:34 | |
have the pleasure, the honour, to
sit on the justice committee. In | 2:37:34 | 2:37:39 | |
October, the committee wrote to the
chair of the Law Commission to | 2:37:39 | 2:37:43 | |
assess it -- to suggest it would be
of value to review the law of joint | 2:37:43 | 2:37:46 | |
enterprise given the lack of legal
clarity, particularly on how | 2:37:46 | 2:37:52 | |
jewellery is should be directed on
the question of intention. | 2:37:52 | 2:37:58 | |
Unfortunately, the final version of
the 13th programme of the review | 2:37:58 | 2:38:04 | |
admits any work on joint enterprise,
but I know that the chair of the | 2:38:04 | 2:38:10 | |
justice committee will continue to
push these points. I'm sure the | 2:38:10 | 2:38:15 | |
committee will want to pursue that
point. Of course, there was nothing | 2:38:15 | 2:38:20 | |
to stop the Government themselves
asking the Law Commission to carry | 2:38:20 | 2:38:24 | |
out a review, as has happened a
number of times in the past. Like | 2:38:24 | 2:38:29 | |
the loaded and honourable member, I
also look forward to the ministerial | 2:38:29 | 2:38:32 | |
response today. The justice
committee also wrote to the DPP, as | 2:38:32 | 2:38:38 | |
we already have, suggesting
clarification on the intention of | 2:38:38 | 2:38:41 | |
the defendant. I support the calls
by my honourable friend from | 2:38:41 | 2:38:48 | |
Manchester Central. Clear demands,
proportionality, the need for proper | 2:38:48 | 2:38:56 | |
data, a review of the CPS guidance,
and a review of older cases. All of | 2:38:56 | 2:39:02 | |
these are essential, and we look
forward to the response of the | 2:39:02 | 2:39:05 | |
Minister on those issues. For the
sake of Alex and the thousands of | 2:39:05 | 2:39:12 | |
others imprisoned under joint
enterprise, and their loved ones, I | 2:39:12 | 2:39:15 | |
support the cause of colleagues
across this Has that this injustice | 2:39:15 | 2:39:19 | |
be rectified. Let's correct the
wrong, and if we really want is to | 2:39:19 | 2:39:25 | |
address knife crime, let's learn
from those places that have actually | 2:39:25 | 2:39:27 | |
brought it down. I had the privilege
of working with JENGbA for seven or | 2:39:27 | 2:39:38 | |
eight years, I am pleased that they
are now located in my constituency. | 2:39:38 | 2:39:42 | |
But I am sorry that we have not made
more progress. When I say we, I mean | 2:39:42 | 2:39:47 | |
we in this House. I also include the
Government in that. JENGbA | 2:39:47 | 2:39:52 | |
themselves have an outstanding
record in representing 800 families | 2:39:52 | 2:39:57 | |
in relation to these very difficult
cases. I have a number of | 2:39:57 | 2:40:06 | |
constituents who are serving long
sentences, who were convicted before | 2:40:06 | 2:40:11 | |
the Jogee judgment and therefore are
potentially subject to review. Let | 2:40:11 | 2:40:17 | |
me just say before going on to this
point is, these aren't easy matters. | 2:40:17 | 2:40:25 | |
We also, I'm sure, all our
constituents who have been the | 2:40:25 | 2:40:28 | |
victims of violent crimes, and we
are concerned that people are | 2:40:28 | 2:40:37 | |
punished as long as they are
punished suitably for crimes they | 2:40:37 | 2:40:40 | |
have committed. There are some
famous cases - Gary new love, | 2:40:40 | 2:40:48 | |
Stephen Lawrence - in which joint
enterprise played a part in the | 2:40:48 | 2:40:51 | |
convictions, and it is only human
nature that when serious offences | 2:40:51 | 2:40:56 | |
are committed, particularly murder,
where there are victims and grieving | 2:40:56 | 2:40:59 | |
families, to want to bring people to
justice. The difficulty has arisen | 2:40:59 | 2:41:03 | |
because particularly when there are
large gangs or groups, it is | 2:41:03 | 2:41:08 | |
actually more difficult to identify
who the actual perpetrators are. | 2:41:08 | 2:41:15 | |
Therefore, the danger of miscarriage
of justice is all the greater. | 2:41:15 | 2:41:18 | |
Several members have referred to the
history of what has been variously | 2:41:18 | 2:41:26 | |
called Common purpose, secondary
liability or joint enterprise. The | 2:41:26 | 2:41:29 | |
member for Ealing North said it was
conceived as a development in common | 2:41:29 | 2:41:35 | |
law to deal with the social evil of
dualling is, almost as a matter of | 2:41:35 | 2:41:40 | |
public policy rather than law. We
had leading cases such as swindler | 2:41:40 | 2:41:46 | |
and Osborne, an 1846 case about two
cart drivers, one of whom is killed | 2:41:46 | 2:41:54 | |
a pedestrian in a race. It is easy
to say in those sorts of cases how | 2:41:54 | 2:41:58 | |
one can attach guilt to the person
who is not the primary perpetrator. | 2:41:58 | 2:42:04 | |
The member for Ealing North also
referred to another case. There were | 2:42:04 | 2:42:12 | |
many factors in that case, a very
celebrated case. It is 65 years on | 2:42:12 | 2:42:17 | |
Sunday since the execution, 25 years
since it was -- since he was | 2:42:17 | 2:42:28 | |
pardoned and 20 years since the
conviction was quashed. These are | 2:42:28 | 2:42:35 | |
cases which, however they were
resolved, it is fairly easy to see | 2:42:35 | 2:42:41 | |
that the principle of joint
enterprise was at work. | 2:42:41 | 2:42:47 | |
What we are dealing with now is
several factors have changed, the | 2:42:47 | 2:42:52 | |
huge preponderance of people from
black and minority ethnic | 2:42:52 | 2:42:55 | |
communities who are convicted, the
number of young people convicted, | 2:42:55 | 2:42:59 | |
simply the numbers, the numbers of
people engaged, it is wrong to say | 2:42:59 | 2:43:05 | |
there has not been a lot of
attention paid to that issue. It is | 2:43:05 | 2:43:09 | |
a question of what that outcomes
have been. We heard from the | 2:43:09 | 2:43:13 | |
chairman of the Justice Select
Committee and he and his | 2:43:13 | 2:43:16 | |
predecessors have produced a number
of very telling reports into this | 2:43:16 | 2:43:21 | |
issue. Although they may be
imperfect still, the CPS guidelines | 2:43:21 | 2:43:25 | |
have been reviewed and of course we
have had Jogee. The outcome of | 2:43:25 | 2:43:31 | |
Jogee, not that we have seen the
judgment, it is perhaps unsurprising | 2:43:31 | 2:43:39 | |
because as my friend said, the
mental test for secondary | 2:43:39 | 2:43:43 | |
participation is lower before Jogee
than for the primary offender. -- | 2:43:43 | 2:43:51 | |
now that we have seen Jogee. That
has changed. There is the | 2:43:51 | 2:43:56 | |
possibility of review. I think the
courts... There is the issue of | 2:43:56 | 2:44:05 | |
floodgates, will they suddenly, by
correcting the law, have a huge | 2:44:05 | 2:44:14 | |
number of cases to review? Many
members have said, so be it, that | 2:44:14 | 2:44:19 | |
will have to take place, but it does
really come to government to decide | 2:44:19 | 2:44:23 | |
how that is going to be dealt with.
I'm afraid that government has been | 2:44:23 | 2:44:29 | |
wanting. After Jogee, in November,
2016, the then Minister wrote to the | 2:44:29 | 2:44:40 | |
Justice Select Committee and said,
we have concluded no further review | 2:44:40 | 2:44:43 | |
of the law is necessary at this
time. But as I understand it, that | 2:44:43 | 2:44:52 | |
is their position. That is wrong, we
need to have a review. It is not | 2:44:52 | 2:44:57 | |
easy. But it is a complex and
difficult offence. It is not easy | 2:44:57 | 2:45:02 | |
because there are arguments on both
sides. But the law gets itself in a | 2:45:02 | 2:45:07 | |
mess exactly in these areas.
Certainly between 2010 and 2015, one | 2:45:07 | 2:45:13 | |
of the things I was urging my own
party to do if they came to power | 2:45:13 | 2:45:19 | |
was to look at some of the very
difficult issues. I also think | 2:45:19 | 2:45:26 | |
homicide needs to be looked at.
Often these are common law offences | 2:45:26 | 2:45:31 | |
that have developed over a period of
time but are not fit for purpose in | 2:45:31 | 2:45:35 | |
the modern world. I say to the
Minister and I hope we will hear | 2:45:35 | 2:45:38 | |
some positive answers from her today
that we do need to review the law in | 2:45:38 | 2:45:43 | |
this area. They cannot just be left
to the courts or prosecuting | 2:45:43 | 2:45:48 | |
authorities to do. Sooner or later,
is whether this government or a | 2:45:48 | 2:45:52 | |
future government, it will have to
be done. Final point, the general | 2:45:52 | 2:45:56 | |
point, on evidence and statistics. I
cannot believe that we are not | 2:45:56 | 2:46:05 | |
collecting proper statistics on this
at the moment. It is clear from what | 2:46:05 | 2:46:09 | |
statistics are available but there
are a very high proportion of people | 2:46:09 | 2:46:13 | |
convicted of homicide offences on
the bases of joint enterprise. Some | 2:46:13 | 2:46:17 | |
estimates say it is approaching 50%
of those who are sentenced. I ask | 2:46:17 | 2:46:22 | |
that very question two years ago
exactly to the Secretary of State | 2:46:22 | 2:46:30 | |
for Justice, how many people have
been convicted under joint | 2:46:30 | 2:46:33 | |
enterprise since 2010 each year? The
answer was that the information is | 2:46:33 | 2:46:37 | |
not held centrally and could only be
obtained at disproportionate cost. | 2:46:37 | 2:46:41 | |
Again, that is quite wrong. If we
are to sensibly deal with difficult | 2:46:41 | 2:46:48 | |
and sensitive matters, we have to
have the facts. I say to the | 2:46:48 | 2:46:52 | |
Minister, it would be wonderful to
hear from today that there will be a | 2:46:52 | 2:46:55 | |
review and that the Government is
going to refer this to the | 2:46:55 | 2:46:59 | |
commission, as the Justice Select
Committee as indicated. It would be | 2:46:59 | 2:47:04 | |
welcome to hear from her that there
will be a proper collection of | 2:47:04 | 2:47:08 | |
statistics we have a sound basis on
which to look at the reform. Thank | 2:47:08 | 2:47:15 | |
you. Can I start also by
congratulating the honourable member | 2:47:15 | 2:47:20 | |
for Manchester and colleagues who
deserve great credit for bringing | 2:47:20 | 2:47:24 | |
this debate? And posing a number of
challenging questions. The | 2:47:24 | 2:47:28 | |
consequences of this Jogee decision
include uncertainty and distress for | 2:47:28 | 2:47:33 | |
victims and relatives who wonder
whether those held responsible for | 2:47:33 | 2:47:37 | |
violent crimes will have sentences
quashed and the honourable member | 2:47:37 | 2:47:43 | |
for Sutton Caulfield and others
rightly reflected on that. On the | 2:47:43 | 2:47:45 | |
other hand, we are agreed the
so-called wrong turn in the law | 2:47:45 | 2:47:49 | |
means there have been many
miscarriages of justice and people | 2:47:49 | 2:47:54 | |
have been convicted and sentenced
for crimes far graver than those | 2:47:54 | 2:47:58 | |
which should have been held
responsible for. It has thrown up, | 2:47:58 | 2:48:03 | |
as thanks to the excellent work of
the honourable member for Tottenham, | 2:48:03 | 2:48:07 | |
it's disproportionate effects on
young men from black and ethnic | 2:48:07 | 2:48:12 | |
minority communities. It has been
explained why the decision of the | 2:48:12 | 2:48:17 | |
Privy Council in the 1985 case was
wrong and required to be corrected | 2:48:17 | 2:48:23 | |
by the Supreme Court. For me the
correction throws up three discrete | 2:48:23 | 2:48:27 | |
questions. It is clear the law after
1985 has been wrongly applied and | 2:48:27 | 2:48:32 | |
resulted in real injustices. The
first question is, is the law on | 2:48:32 | 2:48:37 | |
joint enterprise and parasitic
accessory liability now operating as | 2:48:37 | 2:48:42 | |
we want it? How should the criminal
law respond when a person engages in | 2:48:42 | 2:48:47 | |
a joint enterprise with a principal
who goes on to commit a serious | 2:48:47 | 2:48:50 | |
offence outside of the scope of the
enterprise? On paper the Jogee | 2:48:50 | 2:48:54 | |
decision is better than what was in
place beforehand. Honourable members | 2:48:54 | 2:48:59 | |
across the House have raised serious
concerns about whether it is | 2:48:59 | 2:49:03 | |
operating effectively in practice or
as parliament would desire it. | 2:49:03 | 2:49:10 | |
Examples have been given of judicial
reasoning that give real cause for | 2:49:10 | 2:49:15 | |
concern. The variety of situations
in which joint enterprise might | 2:49:15 | 2:49:18 | |
arise and the different views of
culpability that followed that are | 2:49:18 | 2:49:23 | |
many and varied. Many members have
focused on how it affects young | 2:49:23 | 2:49:27 | |
people in gangs in particular and
there have been powerful arguments | 2:49:27 | 2:49:31 | |
for reform especially from
honourable members for Ealing North | 2:49:31 | 2:49:34 | |
and Tottenham. It arises also in
many other circumstances and we need | 2:49:34 | 2:49:38 | |
to look for a solution which can
respond adequately to all these | 2:49:38 | 2:49:43 | |
different facts and circumstances. A
related issue is sentencing. I | 2:49:43 | 2:49:49 | |
simply ask, does the fact of having
mandatory sentences in some cases | 2:49:49 | 2:49:54 | |
mean punishments cannot reflect the
different levels of culpability, | 2:49:54 | 2:49:57 | |
principal and accessory, and is that
also an area that might require | 2:49:57 | 2:50:03 | |
reform? Finally, serious questions
around appeal rights which the | 2:50:03 | 2:50:06 | |
honourable member spoke eloquently
about. The decision in the 1985 case | 2:50:06 | 2:50:14 | |
had been a statute and reflected the
role of Parliament and amended and | 2:50:14 | 2:50:18 | |
replaced in 2016, then there would
have been possibility of those | 2:50:18 | 2:50:22 | |
convicted between having a right to
appeal. As the honourable member for | 2:50:22 | 2:50:25 | |
Tottenham says, it is a very
different situation, common law, and | 2:50:25 | 2:50:29 | |
the Supreme Court says the law was
applied wrongly by the courts and | 2:50:29 | 2:50:33 | |
people have been convicted for
crimes they did not commit and | 2:50:33 | 2:50:36 | |
cannot possibly be right that no
challenges to those convictions have | 2:50:36 | 2:50:40 | |
been successful. There is a strong
case that appeals against the | 2:50:40 | 2:50:45 | |
decisions, that the bar has been set
too high. Difficult issues, it has | 2:50:45 | 2:50:49 | |
been useful for MPs to air their
views but I cannot help but agree | 2:50:49 | 2:50:54 | |
with the chair of the Justice Select
Committee that a thorough review is | 2:50:54 | 2:50:58 | |
required, the work is urgent,
otherwise we will have to return to | 2:50:58 | 2:51:01 | |
this issue in the very near future.
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I | 2:51:01 | 2:51:09 | |
want to congratulate the honourable
member for Manchester Central, the | 2:51:09 | 2:51:13 | |
right honourable member for Sutton
Coldfield, the honourable member for | 2:51:13 | 2:51:16 | |
Bromley, and the right honourable
member for Tottenham for securing | 2:51:16 | 2:51:20 | |
this very important debate on joint
enterprise. I also want to pay | 2:51:20 | 2:51:24 | |
tribute to the campaign group Jengba
for highlighting concerns with this | 2:51:24 | 2:51:28 | |
law over many years contributing to
the Supreme Court ruling in 2016 | 2:51:28 | 2:51:31 | |
that the law had taken a wrong turn.
We have heard from many excellent | 2:51:31 | 2:51:37 | |
and passionate speeches today and I
want to touch on some of the | 2:51:37 | 2:51:39 | |
speakers. The honourable lady from
Manchester Central who set out very | 2:51:39 | 2:51:48 | |
eloquently and combines of leader
issues in this debate. And the right | 2:51:48 | 2:51:54 | |
honourable member who talked with
the family of the victim and also | 2:51:54 | 2:51:58 | |
about the miscarriages of justice
and the very important point he make | 2:51:58 | 2:52:01 | |
about distinguishing between groups
and gangs and the honourable member | 2:52:01 | 2:52:11 | |
for who said that miscarriages of
justice must be dealt with and the | 2:52:11 | 2:52:17 | |
families of victims must not be
ignored. And the honourable member | 2:52:17 | 2:52:23 | |
for Bromley, talked about the need
for pressing the Government for | 2:52:23 | 2:52:26 | |
legal reforms and the importance of
correct charges and sentenced | 2:52:26 | 2:52:30 | |
proportionate to the acts carried
out. Honourable member for Ealing | 2:52:30 | 2:52:34 | |
North who in his characteristic
passionate oratory skill contributed | 2:52:34 | 2:52:40 | |
to this space and talked about his
constituent Alex Henry, as did | 2:52:40 | 2:52:46 | |
another honourable member. And of
course, I have to obviously | 2:52:46 | 2:52:51 | |
complement the honourable member for
Bolton West, my adjoining | 2:52:51 | 2:52:55 | |
constituency member, the points he
made and specifically about the | 2:52:55 | 2:52:58 | |
guidance of prosecutors who are
involved in making these decisions | 2:52:58 | 2:53:01 | |
as to what charges should follow.
And of course, the right honourable | 2:53:01 | 2:53:06 | |
member for Tottenham who made an
incredibly powerful speech about how | 2:53:06 | 2:53:11 | |
this law has been applied in reality
in certain situations. I think it is | 2:53:11 | 2:53:19 | |
accepted by everyone that the law
regarding joint liability is complex | 2:53:19 | 2:53:24 | |
and the Justice Select Committee in
2012 of which I was a member carried | 2:53:24 | 2:53:30 | |
out an inquiry into the operation of
the joint enterprise and in 2014 the | 2:53:30 | 2:53:37 | |
committee revisited this issue to
see what had occurred. Both of the | 2:53:37 | 2:53:41 | |
reports dealt with the status of the
law and that application of the law | 2:53:41 | 2:53:46 | |
before the Jogee case reached the
Supreme Court whether judgment was | 2:53:46 | 2:53:51 | |
founded in February, 2016. Although
the Justice Select Committee report | 2:53:51 | 2:53:56 | |
predates this judgment, much of the
background information and analysis | 2:53:56 | 2:54:02 | |
contained remains useful. They
explained that joint enterprise is a | 2:54:02 | 2:54:04 | |
form of secondary liability by a
person who agrees to commit a crime | 2:54:04 | 2:54:09 | |
with another and becomes liable for
all criminal acts committed by the | 2:54:09 | 2:54:13 | |
other person. The principal
offender. In the course of the joint | 2:54:13 | 2:54:18 | |
criminal venture. The Justice Select
Committee then suggested that the | 2:54:18 | 2:54:23 | |
Director of Public Prosecutions
issue guidance of the use of this | 2:54:23 | 2:54:26 | |
doctrine when charging and in
particular they wanted guidance on | 2:54:26 | 2:54:30 | |
the relationship between Association
and complicity. I will return to the | 2:54:30 | 2:54:35 | |
clarity of the law shortly as it
remains concerning for many members | 2:54:35 | 2:54:39 | |
even after the Jogee case. In terms
of -- victims of crime are at the | 2:54:39 | 2:54:45 | |
centre of Labour's approach to
justice. We must have faith in the | 2:54:45 | 2:54:50 | |
justice system and to achieve that
the justice system must deliver | 2:54:50 | 2:54:54 | |
certainty. Labour is also clear that
where there are substantial | 2:54:54 | 2:54:58 | |
injustices arising from the
application of the law of joint | 2:54:58 | 2:55:02 | |
enterprise, before the case of
Jogee, these should be addressed as | 2:55:02 | 2:55:05 | |
well. Jogee is reasonably described
as a landmark court judgment. It | 2:55:05 | 2:55:11 | |
established the law on joint
enterprise had been misinterpreted | 2:55:11 | 2:55:14 | |
and the criminal court for three
decades. The ruling turned on the | 2:55:14 | 2:55:18 | |
judgment that an individual or
seeing possible crime does not | 2:55:18 | 2:55:24 | |
equate to automatic authorisation of
it as the law has been interpreted | 2:55:24 | 2:55:28 | |
in previous cases -- foreseeing. A
higher threshold of proof is now | 2:55:28 | 2:55:33 | |
required. It is welcomed the Supreme
Court clarified that application of | 2:55:33 | 2:55:37 | |
the law of joint enterprise. The
judgment have also set out the | 2:55:37 | 2:55:42 | |
criteria by which potential
miscarriages of justice can be | 2:55:42 | 2:55:45 | |
addressed where a substantial
injustice has occurred. Subsequent | 2:55:45 | 2:55:50 | |
judgments following the Supreme
Court ruling relating to joint | 2:55:50 | 2:55:56 | |
enterprise appeals have developed
the argument around the nature of | 2:55:56 | 2:55:59 | |
the substantial injustice. And the
judgment in joint enterprise cases | 2:55:59 | 2:56:04 | |
since Jogee have explained why the
law must provide for certainty. It | 2:56:04 | 2:56:08 | |
is clearly in the public interest
that convictions are not | 2:56:08 | 2:56:12 | |
automatically reopened when the
judge later developed the law. To | 2:56:12 | 2:56:17 | |
reopen all cases would undermine the
certainty of conviction and would | 2:56:17 | 2:56:20 | |
deny closure to victim 's' families
and in the case of Johnson it was | 2:56:20 | 2:56:24 | |
stated according to the appeal case
that they need to establish | 2:56:24 | 2:56:30 | |
substantial injustice results from
the wider public interest in legal | 2:56:30 | 2:56:34 | |
certainty and the finality of
decisions made in accordance with | 2:56:34 | 2:56:37 | |
the then clearly established law. It
also must take into account the | 2:56:37 | 2:56:42 | |
interests of the victim 's and the
family of the victim and in | 2:56:42 | 2:56:45 | |
particular where deaths have
resulted an closure is particularly | 2:56:45 | 2:56:52 | |
important. We are clear victims of
crime and their families must have | 2:56:52 | 2:56:54 | |
confidence in the system. In the
same way, it is also vital that | 2:56:54 | 2:56:59 | |
victims of miscarriages of justice
have opportunities to have their | 2:56:59 | 2:57:01 | |
cases heard as well. Without those
opportunities, we would risk | 2:57:01 | 2:57:07 | |
injustices being permitted to
continue. Those who believe | 2:57:07 | 2:57:11 | |
miscarriages of justice have been
committed art of the opinion that | 2:57:11 | 2:57:15 | |
the question of how substantial
injustices defined has not been | 2:57:15 | 2:57:20 | |
developed. It is right more clarity
is needed for the vital question and | 2:57:20 | 2:57:26 | |
hopefully today's debate has
contributed to that. | 2:57:26 | 2:57:32 | |
At we welcome the news that the
Crown prosecution the search -- | 2:57:32 | 2:57:37 | |
service is renewing their guidance,
and we hope that it will provide | 2:57:37 | 2:57:40 | |
more certainty and clarity for
victims and the wider public. Many | 2:57:40 | 2:57:43 | |
members of the public will be
surprised to know that there are no | 2:57:43 | 2:57:49 | |
official statistics available on
joint enterprise convictions. This | 2:57:49 | 2:57:51 | |
can make it difficult to assess how
big an impact the changes in the law | 2:57:51 | 2:58:00 | |
have had in practice. Two years ago,
my honourable friend the member for | 2:58:00 | 2:58:06 | |
Hammersmith asked the Secretary of
State for Justice are many people | 2:58:06 | 2:58:08 | |
have been convicted under the joint
enterprise arrangement since 2010. A | 2:58:08 | 2:58:13 | |
similar request was also made by the
Justice select committee of the | 2:58:13 | 2:58:19 | |
2010-15 Parliament. The Government
response was that this information | 2:58:19 | 2:58:23 | |
was not held centrally and could
only be obtained at disproportionate | 2:58:23 | 2:58:28 | |
cost. This is plainly unsatisfactory
because it is a reasonable request | 2:58:28 | 2:58:32 | |
for information which would actually
shed a true light on the scale of | 2:58:32 | 2:58:38 | |
joint enterprise conviction. Can I
ask the Minister therefore that the | 2:58:38 | 2:58:42 | |
Government will take action to
rectify this urgently. The need for | 2:58:42 | 2:58:46 | |
keeping proper statistics would
greatly assist everyone, and the | 2:58:46 | 2:58:52 | |
fact that there are no official
statistics, though there is academic | 2:58:52 | 2:59:00 | |
research that suggests that the law
may have been applied in a | 2:59:00 | 2:59:06 | |
discriminatory way. Where such
profiling does exist, it is only... | 2:59:06 | 2:59:15 | |
In fact, the Justice select
committee report of 2014 said: It is | 2:59:15 | 2:59:20 | |
clear that a large proportion of
those convicted of joint enterprise | 2:59:20 | 2:59:25 | |
offences are young, black and
mixed-race men. In the Cambridge | 2:59:25 | 2:59:31 | |
research sample, 37.2% of those
serving very long sentences for | 2:59:31 | 2:59:36 | |
joint enterprise offences were black
British, 11 times the proportion of | 2:59:36 | 2:59:44 | |
the Black British population in the
general population, and almost three | 2:59:44 | 2:59:49 | |
times as many as in the overall
prison population. There was also a | 2:59:49 | 2:59:56 | |
much higher proportion of mixed race
prisoners convicted of joint | 2:59:56 | 2:59:58 | |
enterprise offences than the general
population. 15.5%, compared to 3.9%. | 2:59:58 | 3:00:09 | |
Evidence was also hurt by the
Justice committee that there had | 3:00:09 | 3:00:12 | |
been disproportionality. Doctor Ben
Crew from the Cambridge Institute of | 3:00:12 | 3:00:18 | |
criminology said that there were
probably two main reasons for the | 3:00:18 | 3:00:23 | |
disproportionate impact of joint
enterprise on young black men. The | 3:00:23 | 3:00:27 | |
first being that BME nine might be
overrepresented in the kind of | 3:00:27 | 3:00:34 | |
communities where young men
typically hang around in groups that | 3:00:34 | 3:00:37 | |
are labelled by outsiders as gangs.
Second, that an association may | 3:00:37 | 3:00:43 | |
exist unconsciously in the mind of
police, prosecutors and jewellery is | 3:00:43 | 3:00:47 | |
about being a young ethnic minority
mail and being in a gang, and | 3:00:47 | 3:00:52 | |
therefore being involved in forms of
urban violence. A point that many | 3:00:52 | 3:00:58 | |
members in the debate today have
alluded to. I want to come onto what | 3:00:58 | 3:01:03 | |
the Right Honourable member for
Tottenham had said, and also | 3:01:03 | 3:01:09 | |
acknowledge the work he has done in
the David Lammy review. In that | 3:01:09 | 3:01:13 | |
report, it states the two despite
the court ruling in Jogee, experts | 3:01:13 | 3:01:21 | |
in the field and remain concerned
about some of the practices around | 3:01:21 | 3:01:24 | |
joint enterprise. Many are not
convinced that the line between... | 3:01:24 | 3:01:36 | |
Are people must be tried on the
basis of evidence about their | 3:01:36 | 3:01:40 | |
actions, not their association, and
the evidence put before juries must | 3:01:40 | 3:01:43 | |
reflect this. This again further
demonstrates a need for published | 3:01:43 | 3:01:52 | |
statistics on offences of joint
enterprise. Again, we would ask that | 3:01:52 | 3:01:57 | |
the CPS take this opportunity to
rework its guidance on joint | 3:01:57 | 3:02:05 | |
enterprise to consider its approach
so that this and associated laws are | 3:02:05 | 3:02:09 | |
not implemented in a discriminatory
way, and that the prosecutors, when | 3:02:09 | 3:02:15 | |
deciding the appropriateness of the
charge, and who needs to be | 3:02:15 | 3:02:19 | |
prosecuted, that this guidance is
applied properly and fairly, and I | 3:02:19 | 3:02:25 | |
really have the Minister will take
this opportunity to do that today. | 3:02:25 | 3:02:37 | |
It was unforgivably remiss of me
earlier not to welcome my honourable | 3:02:40 | 3:02:44 | |
landlord and friend to her first
outing on the Government front | 3:02:44 | 3:02:47 | |
bench. The whole House will wish her
well in what will undoubtedly be the | 3:02:47 | 3:02:52 | |
start of a long and distinguished
ministerial career. Minister... I am | 3:02:52 | 3:02:59 | |
grateful to the honourable member
from Sutton Coldfield for his | 3:02:59 | 3:03:01 | |
comments, but I would like to start
by commending the member for | 3:03:01 | 3:03:05 | |
Manchester Central for securing this
debate on an issue which I know is | 3:03:05 | 3:03:09 | |
very close to her constituency and
to the heart, and also to the Right | 3:03:09 | 3:03:14 | |
Honourable and honourable members
from Sutton Coldfield, Bromley and | 3:03:14 | 3:03:17 | |
Chislehurst, and Tottenham for
supporting the motion today. I fully | 3:03:17 | 3:03:22 | |
recognise the importance of the law
in this area. When anyone is charged | 3:03:22 | 3:03:26 | |
and convicted of a crime, it will
have serious consequences for them, | 3:03:26 | 3:03:30 | |
their victims and their families.
This is especially the case where | 3:03:30 | 3:03:34 | |
the charge may be as serious as a
crime such as murder. I also | 3:03:34 | 3:03:42 | |
recognise the sensitivity of this
issue in circumstances where I am | 3:03:42 | 3:03:45 | |
aware, and many members today have
highlighted, that the youngest of | 3:03:45 | 3:03:48 | |
those that JENGbA support was 12
when he was charged with the fence, | 3:03:48 | 3:03:55 | |
which will obviously have a
significant impact on his life. I | 3:03:55 | 3:03:58 | |
would like to start, and I know many
members have identified what the | 3:03:58 | 3:04:04 | |
Supreme Court decided, but I think
it is important to set up those | 3:04:04 | 3:04:07 | |
principles because some members are
put forwards in the debate this | 3:04:07 | 3:04:13 | |
afternoon hypothetical circumstances
which might result in a conviction | 3:04:13 | 3:04:17 | |
for access reliability, and I'm not
sure all of them were right, so I | 3:04:17 | 3:04:20 | |
think it is important to be clear at
the outset what we're talking about | 3:04:20 | 3:04:23 | |
and to summarise a few of the point
in the Supreme Court's judgment in | 3:04:23 | 3:04:28 | |
Jogee, which was handed down in
February 20 16. This concerns are | 3:04:28 | 3:04:32 | |
very specific area of law on joint
enterprise, parasitic accessory | 3:04:32 | 3:04:37 | |
liability, rather than the law of
joint enterprise as a whole. Such | 3:04:37 | 3:04:41 | |
liability arose where two people
participated together in an offence, | 3:04:41 | 3:04:47 | |
for example, a burglary, and in the
course of that event, Person one | 3:04:47 | 3:04:50 | |
committed a second offence, for
example, he or she murdered a | 3:04:50 | 3:04:54 | |
security guard. Under the law as it
stood before Jogee, if the second | 3:04:54 | 3:04:58 | |
person foresaw that the first person
might act with the intention to kill | 3:04:58 | 3:05:03 | |
or cause real serious harm and
participated in the burglary | 3:05:03 | 3:05:07 | |
nonetheless, the second person would
be guilty of murder alongside the | 3:05:07 | 3:05:10 | |
first. In the second my judgment,
the Supreme Court judgment said that | 3:05:10 | 3:05:16 | |
this was wrong, as the motion
recognises. A person cannot be | 3:05:16 | 3:05:21 | |
guilty merely for seeing that an
accomplice might commit a second | 3:05:21 | 3:05:24 | |
offence during the course of the
original plan. Rather, the Supreme | 3:05:24 | 3:05:28 | |
Court held,... The effect of Jogee
means that in the cases of members | 3:05:28 | 3:05:43 | |
of gangs who are not the principal
perpetrators of the crime, they will | 3:05:43 | 3:05:47 | |
not necessarily be guilty of the
crime in question unless it can be | 3:05:47 | 3:05:51 | |
shown that they intentionally
encouraged or help the principal | 3:05:51 | 3:05:55 | |
perpetrator Robert crime. The
Supreme Court also held, and many | 3:05:55 | 3:06:01 | |
members have referred to it, that
offenders convicted under the old | 3:06:01 | 3:06:05 | |
test would only be granted
permission to appeal if they had | 3:06:05 | 3:06:10 | |
suffered substantial injustice. That
is the position that it stands as a | 3:06:10 | 3:06:13 | |
matter of law. I would like to make
another of points in response to the | 3:06:13 | 3:06:16 | |
points that are being made. Many
have been made, and in the short | 3:06:16 | 3:06:20 | |
time allotted, I'm afraid I won't be
able to respond to all of them and | 3:06:20 | 3:06:24 | |
will concentrate on those identified
in the motion itself. The first | 3:06:24 | 3:06:28 | |
point is that there has been a
suggestion that the number of cases | 3:06:28 | 3:06:31 | |
under joint enterprise has been
unchanged since the Supreme Court | 3:06:31 | 3:06:38 | |
judgment. The difficulty with that
argument, as the honourable member | 3:06:38 | 3:06:41 | |
for Bolton pointed out and other
members have identified, is that | 3:06:41 | 3:06:46 | |
there are no official statistics and
no official information to confirm | 3:06:46 | 3:06:50 | |
or deny that. A number of members
have criticised the Ministry of | 3:06:50 | 3:06:55 | |
Justice for not collecting the data,
and that is something I should say | 3:06:55 | 3:07:01 | |
that the Ministry of Justice are
looking at and maybe something that | 3:07:01 | 3:07:05 | |
is possible. The Ministry of Justice
are looking into it, I can confirm | 3:07:05 | 3:07:14 | |
the second point that has been made
is that there has not yet been a | 3:07:14 | 3:07:17 | |
successful appeal. I understand that
that might be extremely frustrating | 3:07:17 | 3:07:21 | |
to the parties, but this is not
because they've is no route to an | 3:07:21 | 3:07:24 | |
appeal. There is a system to
challenge any previous decision. It | 3:07:24 | 3:07:29 | |
is possible for appeals to be made
either by an individual, or an | 3:07:29 | 3:07:33 | |
individual can apply to the criminal
cases review commission to have | 3:07:33 | 3:07:37 | |
their cases reviewed by the Court of
Appeal. And indeed, a number of | 3:07:37 | 3:07:40 | |
cases have been brought. There is
also a criticism that they have been | 3:07:40 | 3:07:45 | |
brought but have been unsuccessful.
There was also criticism of the | 3:07:45 | 3:07:49 | |
threshold that the Court of Appeal
applies in relation to substantial | 3:07:49 | 3:07:52 | |
injustice. This is not a new test
brought in by the Supreme Court in | 3:07:52 | 3:07:57 | |
relation to Jogee. This is a long
applied test that the Court of | 3:07:57 | 3:08:02 | |
Appeal uses in relation to out of
time appeals. The key point that is | 3:08:02 | 3:08:09 | |
advanced in relation to the motion
before the Has the day is that there | 3:08:09 | 3:08:13 | |
is a need for legislation. I would
like to identify a few points about | 3:08:13 | 3:08:17 | |
why it might not be appropriate to
bring forward legislation at this | 3:08:17 | 3:08:20 | |
stage. The first is, the law on
joint enterprise, as many members | 3:08:20 | 3:08:27 | |
have said, is not set out in
statute. It has evolved through | 3:08:27 | 3:08:32 | |
caselaw. Some criticism was made
obvious by the honourable member, | 3:08:32 | 3:08:35 | |
the Right Honourable member for
Tottenham. The evolution of law | 3:08:35 | 3:08:39 | |
through the courts has always been
an important part of our common law | 3:08:39 | 3:08:43 | |
justice system. In our law, the
common law has equal weight with | 3:08:43 | 3:08:47 | |
that made by statute. No judge in
Jogee identified a need for | 3:08:47 | 3:08:52 | |
Parliament to change the law.
Indeed, the honourable member for | 3:08:52 | 3:08:55 | |
Manchester Central accepted today
and previously that the Supreme | 3:08:55 | 3:09:00 | |
Court ruling said its out that it
was the responsibility of the court | 3:09:00 | 3:09:04 | |
to put the law right. Many members
in this House have accepted that the | 3:09:04 | 3:09:08 | |
law set down by the Supreme Court is
right. What some of them have | 3:09:08 | 3:09:14 | |
identified is that it is the
implementation of that decision that | 3:09:14 | 3:09:19 | |
has flaws. I would like to draw in a
few points related to that. As some | 3:09:19 | 3:09:24 | |
members have referred to, the CPS
has already amended its guidance. It | 3:09:24 | 3:09:28 | |
is currently operating on guidance
in line with the Supreme Court | 3:09:28 | 3:09:33 | |
decision. More importantly, it has
consulted on revised guidance for | 3:09:33 | 3:09:39 | |
use by prosecutors. I know that the
honourable mentor for -- member for | 3:09:39 | 3:09:46 | |
Manchester Central has contributed
that, which is to be commended, and | 3:09:46 | 3:09:49 | |
I am told that the CPS aims to
publish a summary of their response | 3:09:49 | 3:09:53 | |
to the consultation and the final
version of their guidance in the | 3:09:53 | 3:09:57 | |
early part of this year. Many
members have rightly identified the | 3:09:57 | 3:10:03 | |
disproportionate number of BME
defendants in these cases, and I am | 3:10:03 | 3:10:09 | |
very pleased that the CPS has
confirmed that the revised guidance | 3:10:09 | 3:10:12 | |
will take account of the Langley
recommendations which task the CPS | 3:10:12 | 3:10:17 | |
to take the opportunity while
reworking its guidance on joint | 3:10:17 | 3:10:21 | |
emphasise to consider its approach
the gang prosecutions in general. | 3:10:21 | 3:10:25 | |
This CPS has also revised its
internal resources on gangs in the | 3:10:25 | 3:10:30 | |
light of the recommendations
resulting from the Langley review. | 3:10:30 | 3:10:33 | |
Finally, whilst the motion calls for
clarity in relation to the law, it | 3:10:33 | 3:10:39 | |
does not identify what that lack of
clarity is, or how the law could be | 3:10:39 | 3:10:43 | |
improved. Indeed, as I have
already... I will take an | 3:10:43 | 3:10:51 | |
intervention in a moment. As the
honourable member for Manchester | 3:10:51 | 3:10:55 | |
Central has said, what is needed is
for the Supreme Court judgment to be | 3:10:55 | 3:10:59 | |
followed. There is no suggestion
that the law itself needs changing. | 3:10:59 | 3:11:04 | |
It just needs to be in force. I am
grateful to my honourable and | 3:11:04 | 3:11:08 | |
learned friend. I think many of us
would say that it is that the | 3:11:08 | 3:11:13 | |
doctrine of joint enterprise needs
to be put on a statutory basis, it | 3:11:13 | 3:11:19 | |
is operation in relation to the log
homicide, and it is the law of | 3:11:19 | 3:11:25 | |
homicide that would itself benefit
from having a statue to review, and | 3:11:25 | 3:11:30 | |
that would give us an opportunity to
deal with the anomalies of joint | 3:11:30 | 3:11:34 | |
enterprise in the homicide context.
I think that's what we're looking | 3:11:34 | 3:11:36 | |
for. Well, the honourable member is
very prescient, because I was about | 3:11:36 | 3:11:42 | |
to go on to the broader points that
were made during the debate. That | 3:11:42 | 3:11:46 | |
was one which he raced in his own
speech before the House, and I know | 3:11:46 | 3:11:51 | |
he has raised it in the past in
relation to the select committee. | 3:11:51 | 3:11:55 | |
That is something, as a new
minister, that I am happy to look | 3:11:55 | 3:11:59 | |
at. As indeed other broader
points... Not to look at, to | 3:11:59 | 3:12:05 | |
consider, in due course. Other
broader points were made. The | 3:12:05 | 3:12:09 | |
honourable member for Sutton
Coldfield is also mentioned issues | 3:12:09 | 3:12:14 | |
of disclosure which I know are being
looked at by the Attorney General. | 3:12:14 | 3:12:17 | |
There were many points raised, and I
will happily address them when time | 3:12:17 | 3:12:25 | |
allows. Coming back to the precise
motion in this House, I recognise | 3:12:25 | 3:12:32 | |
the importance of the law on joint
enterprise. The impact that it can | 3:12:32 | 3:12:38 | |
have on those, such as the
constituents of the honourable | 3:12:38 | 3:12:41 | |
member for Manchester Central and
those others that have come before | 3:12:41 | 3:12:45 | |
the House today, but for the reasons
set out, the Government does not | 3:12:45 | 3:12:48 | |
believe that time is currently right
for any changes to the law on joint | 3:12:48 | 3:12:52 | |
enterprise. It is for the courts to
interpret the law as laid down by | 3:12:52 | 3:12:57 | |
the Supreme Court. I very much hope
that the revised guidance on second | 3:12:57 | 3:13:02 | |
reliability will provide a clear
direction and guidance for | 3:13:02 | 3:13:05 | |
prosecutors on this area of law. And
I am happy to keep the matter under | 3:13:05 | 3:13:09 | |
review. In those circumstances, I
invite the House to reject the | 3:13:09 | 3:13:15 | |
motion. | 3:13:15 | 3:13:20 | |
Notwithstanding the Minister's
response, I think what everybody | 3:13:20 | 3:13:23 | |
watching this debate today can take
away from this House is that there | 3:13:23 | 3:13:29 | |
is a clear and unified view of
Parliament, that the law has indeed | 3:13:29 | 3:13:33 | |
got it wrong and that it needs to be
put right. I would suggest judging | 3:13:33 | 3:13:39 | |
on today's debate that there would
be a parliamentary majority to do | 3:13:39 | 3:13:44 | |
just that. But in the meantime, I
would ask that all of those watching | 3:13:44 | 3:13:50 | |
here today, the prosecutors, Appeal
Court judges, police and others, | 3:13:50 | 3:13:55 | |
start putting it right themselves.
And we will take forward as a | 3:13:55 | 3:13:59 | |
cross-party group how we now might
put further pressure on the | 3:13:59 | 3:14:02 | |
Government and work with the
Government to do just that. I think | 3:14:02 | 3:14:07 | |
very briefly there is clear
consensus around proportionality, | 3:14:07 | 3:14:10 | |
the gangs versus groups, the CPS
guidance which I think the initial | 3:14:10 | 3:14:17 | |
interim guidance was itself actually
further problematic and a wider | 3:14:17 | 3:14:22 | |
homicide review, and critically, a
very broad consensus on the | 3:14:22 | 3:14:27 | |
retrospective cases and the
substantial injustice test which is | 3:14:27 | 3:14:31 | |
not allowing unsafe convictions to
come forward and it is critical that | 3:14:31 | 3:14:36 | |
we are able to take into account
that age, maturity, mental | 3:14:36 | 3:14:43 | |
well-being and potential
disabilities of some of those. There | 3:14:43 | 3:14:44 | |
has been historic debate today and I
know many watching will feel it is a | 3:14:44 | 3:14:52 | |
very important debate. We will not
stop here. I hear what the minister | 3:14:52 | 3:14:55 | |
says and I disagree with some of
what she says but we will continue | 3:14:55 | 3:14:59 | |
to press the Government to take
further action. Thank you. The | 3:14:59 | 3:15:04 | |
question is as on the order paper.
As many as are of the opinion, say | 3:15:04 | 3:15:07 | |
"aye". To the contrary, "no" the
ayes have it. We now come to the | 3:15:07 | 3:15:12 | |
backbench motion on prescription of
the book a 15 minute opening. Thank | 3:15:12 | 3:15:24 | |
you. I beg to move that this House
believes it is a terrorist | 3:15:24 | 3:15:30 | |
organisation that seeks the
destruction of Israel. It declares | 3:15:30 | 3:15:34 | |
itself to be an organisation without
distinguishable political or | 3:15:34 | 3:15:38 | |
military wings, the military wing of
that organisation is prescribed, but | 3:15:38 | 3:15:44 | |
its political wing is not, and calls
on the Government to include it in | 3:15:44 | 3:15:50 | |
its entirety, Hezbollah, on the list
of proscribed organisations. I am | 3:15:50 | 3:15:55 | |
very grateful and I'm very pleased
my friend is bringing this issue to | 3:15:55 | 3:15:59 | |
the House. I do not know if she is
aware but in December, the | 3:15:59 | 3:16:05 | |
Government had a debate on the
extension of proscribed | 3:16:05 | 3:16:12 | |
organisations and in that debate,
the minister told me that the | 3:16:12 | 3:16:18 | |
military organisation of Hezbollah
was not prescribed but if Hezbollah | 3:16:18 | 3:16:23 | |
supporters were engaged in terrorist
activities in this country, they | 3:16:23 | 3:16:27 | |
would be prosecuted. Though sheer
greed terrorist activities are not | 3:16:27 | 3:16:31 | |
sufficient grounds for prosecution,
there should be prosecution for | 3:16:31 | 3:16:35 | |
incitement to hatred, anti-Semitism
and the other crimes which are | 3:16:35 | 3:16:40 | |
taking place on the streets of
London? As the May of London has | 3:16:40 | 3:16:48 | |
called for, Hezbollah should be
banned. I absolutely agree and I | 3:16:48 | 3:16:52 | |
thank him for that intervention
which I take as absolutely 100% | 3:16:52 | 3:16:56 | |
support for this motion today. Mr
Deputy Speaker, and the chair of | 3:16:56 | 3:17:02 | |
Labour friends of Israel,
campaigning for many years on the | 3:17:02 | 3:17:05 | |
issue I will address and stands
before us today. Hezbollah is a | 3:17:05 | 3:17:10 | |
terrorist organisation driven by
anti-Semitic ideology which seeks | 3:17:10 | 3:17:13 | |
the destruction of Israel. It has
wreaked death and destruction | 3:17:13 | 3:17:17 | |
throughout the Middle East aiding
and abetting the Assad regime's | 3:17:17 | 3:17:22 | |
butchery in Syria and driving Iran's
expansionism in the region. It makes | 3:17:22 | 3:17:27 | |
no distinction between political and
military wings and neither should | 3:17:27 | 3:17:31 | |
the British Government. In 2010, the
Obama administration labelled | 3:17:31 | 3:17:36 | |
Hezbollah the most technically
capable terrorist group in the | 3:17:36 | 3:17:39 | |
world. Over the past three decades,
it has been implicated in a string | 3:17:39 | 3:17:43 | |
of deadly attacks against Israeli,
Jewish and Western targets in the | 3:17:43 | 3:17:47 | |
Middle East and far beyond. Its
operatives have been arrested for | 3:17:47 | 3:17:51 | |
plotting to carry out attacks across
the globe, Europe, Asia, Africa and | 3:17:51 | 3:17:55 | |
South arrays meat America. A litany
of death and violence widely | 3:17:55 | 3:18:01 | |
attributed to Hezbollah includes the
1983 murder in Beirut of 241 | 3:18:01 | 3:18:06 | |
American and 58 French peacekeepers.
The 1986 wave of bombings against | 3:18:06 | 3:18:11 | |
Jewish communal targets in Paris
which saw 13 people die. The 1992 | 3:18:11 | 3:18:16 | |
attack on the Israeli embassy and
one monasteries in which 29 people | 3:18:16 | 3:18:20 | |
died. The 1990 bombing of the
Argentina Jewish mutual association | 3:18:20 | 3:18:25 | |
leading to the deaths of 85 people.
The 1996 Towers bombing in which 19 | 3:18:25 | 3:18:32 | |
US servicemen lost their lives than
nearly 500 people were injured. The | 3:18:32 | 3:18:35 | |
2012 attack on the bus of Israeli
tourists in a Bulgarian resort which | 3:18:35 | 3:18:42 | |
murdered six people and two people
finally went on trial last week. | 3:18:42 | 3:18:47 | |
Such terrorist acts are promoted,
glorified and encouraged by the | 3:18:47 | 3:18:52 | |
leadership of Hezbollah. The general
secretary has for instance praised | 3:18:52 | 3:18:57 | |
suicide bombings or martyrdom
operations, as he prefers to | 3:18:57 | 3:19:03 | |
describe them, as legitimate,
honourable, legal, humanitarian and | 3:19:03 | 3:19:09 | |
ethical actions, saying that those
who love death will triumph over | 3:19:09 | 3:19:13 | |
those who fear it. I give way. She
is making a very powerful speech. | 3:19:13 | 3:19:18 | |
Would you not agree the 1000 people
who marched in London under the flag | 3:19:18 | 3:19:24 | |
of Hezbollah are subscribing to the
very agenda she has just described, | 3:19:24 | 3:19:28 | |
there is no difference between a
military and political wing, as | 3:19:28 | 3:19:32 | |
Hezbollah continually acknowledges?
The only recognition of a difference | 3:19:32 | 3:19:37 | |
is in UK policy, not in reality, and
it is time for the policy to change. | 3:19:37 | 3:19:43 | |
I thank him for that intervention
and I agree because he is completely | 3:19:43 | 3:19:48 | |
right, there is no distinction and
we need to be clear about that. | 3:19:48 | 3:19:54 | |
Hezbollah's actions are driven by a
deep-seated intractable and vicious | 3:19:54 | 3:19:59 | |
hatred of Jews. The House does not
need to take my word for it. The | 3:19:59 | 3:20:05 | |
leaders have proudly boasted of
their anti-Semitism. If Jews gather | 3:20:05 | 3:20:10 | |
in Israel, it would save us the
trouble of going after them, one has | 3:20:10 | 3:20:14 | |
said. He is not a lone voice.
Another, the deputy leader, has | 3:20:14 | 3:20:21 | |
said, the history of Jews has proven
that regardless of the Zionist | 3:20:21 | 3:20:26 | |
proposal, they are people who are
evil in their ideas. I am grateful. | 3:20:26 | 3:20:36 | |
She is indeed making a powerful
case. Would she agree with me that | 3:20:36 | 3:20:43 | |
as well as being anti-Semitic,
Hezbollah have also assassinated and | 3:20:43 | 3:20:48 | |
murdered Christians and as the
honourable member opposite side, | 3:20:48 | 3:20:53 | |
applying the difference between the
military part of Hezbollah and the | 3:20:53 | 3:20:57 | |
political part, it is a distinction
without any meaning whatsoever? | 3:20:57 | 3:21:02 | |
Again, I have no difficulty agreeing
with my honourable friend on the | 3:21:02 | 3:21:04 | |
point he makes. They have killed
probably more Muslims than anybody | 3:21:04 | 3:21:11 | |
else but Christians and Jews and
others. Hezbollah's leaders and the | 3:21:11 | 3:21:19 | |
media pedal classic anti-Semitic
tropes and lies. They referred to | 3:21:19 | 3:21:24 | |
Jews, labelling them apes and pigs
and suggest, you will find no one | 3:21:24 | 3:21:28 | |
more miserly or greedy. They make
spurious claims about Jewish | 3:21:28 | 3:21:35 | |
conspiracies and world domination.
They deny the Holocaust, suggesting | 3:21:35 | 3:21:39 | |
that, the dues invented them legend
of the Nazi atrocities -- the Jews. | 3:21:39 | 3:21:45 | |
Their hatred is a noxious mix, in
the words of one writer, it refuses | 3:21:45 | 3:21:53 | |
anti-Jewish rhetoric from the Koran
and most disturbingly the antique | 3:21:53 | 3:21:59 | |
anti-Semitic beliefs and conspiracy
theories of European fascism. I | 3:21:59 | 3:22:05 | |
thank her for giving way. Just to
highlight the backers of Hezbollah, | 3:22:05 | 3:22:11 | |
the Iranians, providing training and
weapons, whilst the Iranians | 3:22:11 | 3:22:14 | |
continues in the Middle East, they
are jeopardising future prospects of | 3:22:14 | 3:22:19 | |
peace between the Palestinians and
the Israelis and providing a | 3:22:19 | 3:22:23 | |
strategic threat to the very state
of Israel. The honourable gentleman | 3:22:23 | 3:22:27 | |
makes a powerful point with which I
absolutely agree. I will come to | 3:22:27 | 3:22:31 | |
that a little later in my
contribution. Hezbollah is a menace | 3:22:31 | 3:22:36 | |
in the Middle East. But Israel is
its principal target. Again, there | 3:22:36 | 3:22:42 | |
is no secret about this. In its
founding manifesto in 1985, in which | 3:22:42 | 3:22:47 | |
it also pledged its loyalty to
Ayatollah Khamenei and it urged the | 3:22:47 | 3:22:52 | |
establishment of Islamic regime, it
says of Israel, our struggle will | 3:22:52 | 3:22:59 | |
end only when this entity is
obliterated, we recognise no treaty, | 3:22:59 | 3:23:04 | |
no ceasefire and no peace agreement,
whether separate or consolidated. | 3:23:04 | 3:23:09 | |
This no rhetorical sabre rattling.
It has fought any normalisation of | 3:23:09 | 3:23:18 | |
relations between Israel and Arab
countries. This notably in 1993, | 3:23:18 | 3:23:26 | |
1996 and 2006, Hezbollah sought to
provoke conflicts with Israel. The | 3:23:26 | 3:23:31 | |
consequences have been disastrous
and devastating for the people of | 3:23:31 | 3:23:35 | |
Israel and Lebanon. In 2006, it
kidnapped and murdered Israeli | 3:23:35 | 3:23:39 | |
soldiers on the northern border of
the country and launched rockets to | 3:23:39 | 3:23:46 | |
indiscriminately pound the Jewish
state. The resulting conflict led to | 3:23:46 | 3:23:51 | |
large numbers of civilian casualties
and the evacuation of several | 3:23:51 | 3:23:55 | |
several hundred thousand people.
Under the UN resolution 1701, | 3:23:55 | 3:24:03 | |
Hezbollah has spent the last decade
restocking its arsenal and | 3:24:03 | 3:24:07 | |
rebuilding its forces in Lebanon. It
has tripled the size of its fighting | 3:24:07 | 3:24:13 | |
force from 17,000 up to 45,000 men
and it has launched an arms | 3:24:13 | 3:24:18 | |
procurement programme amassing
short, medium and long range | 3:24:18 | 3:24:22 | |
missiles, rockets, drones, anti-tank
weaponry and ballistic missiles. It | 3:24:22 | 3:24:28 | |
now has an estimated 120,000 -
140,000 rockets and missiles. An | 3:24:28 | 3:24:35 | |
arsenal larger than that of many
states. Hezbollah has been allowed | 3:24:35 | 3:24:41 | |
to replenish and expand its armoury
in this manner, it represents a | 3:24:41 | 3:24:45 | |
terrible failure on the part of the
international community, breaking of | 3:24:45 | 3:24:50 | |
the assurances provided to Israel
and a betrayal of the people of | 3:24:50 | 3:24:54 | |
Lebanon and Israel. The implications
are horrifying. An expert on the | 3:24:54 | 3:25:00 | |
region and President Obama's former
deputy assistant secretary on | 3:25:00 | 3:25:05 | |
defence for the Middle East, I
shudder to think what the next | 3:25:05 | 3:25:08 | |
conflict will look like. Hezbollah
has no qualms about such a war, no | 3:25:08 | 3:25:15 | |
concern about or care for the loss
of thousands of the civilian lives | 3:25:15 | 3:25:19 | |
its aggression will lead to.
Israelis, Lebanese, Jews, Muslims | 3:25:19 | 3:25:26 | |
and Christians. Quite deliberately,
it has embedded its forces and | 3:25:26 | 3:25:31 | |
weaponry in towns and villages,
turning the people of southern | 3:25:31 | 3:25:34 | |
Lebanon into human shields. Quite
deliberately it will, as it has in | 3:25:34 | 3:25:40 | |
the past, targeted civilian
population centres in Israel, even | 3:25:40 | 3:25:45 | |
vowing that there will be no red
lines in any future conflict and | 3:25:45 | 3:25:53 | |
underlining the pledge with threats
to attack a nuclear reactor and an | 3:25:53 | 3:25:58 | |
ammonia storage facility. Quite
deliberately, it will seek to draw | 3:25:58 | 3:26:04 | |
in other regional actors.
Hezbollah's capacity may be many | 3:26:04 | 3:26:11 | |
times greater than other terrorist
groups, but its aim to instil terror | 3:26:11 | 3:26:16 | |
by inflicting mass civilian
casualties are the same as those who | 3:26:16 | 3:26:18 | |
wage attacks on targets big and
small throughout the world. They are | 3:26:18 | 3:26:23 | |
the same as those who attacked
London Bridge, the Manchester Arena, | 3:26:23 | 3:26:27 | |
and this House only last year. But
Hezbollah has not simply exported | 3:26:27 | 3:26:33 | |
terror globally and wreaked havoc in
Israel and Lebanon, it's bloody | 3:26:33 | 3:26:38 | |
fingerprints are all over the Syrian
civil War, the most brutal conflict | 3:26:38 | 3:26:42 | |
of this century. In 2016, it was
estimated more than a quarter of | 3:26:42 | 3:26:49 | |
Hezbollah's forces were engaged in
fighting on behalf of the murderous | 3:26:49 | 3:26:52 | |
Assad regime. It has not only
contributed to the killing fields of | 3:26:52 | 3:26:57 | |
Aleppo, it has helped to eliminate
the non-extremist opposition to | 3:26:57 | 3:27:03 | |
Assad. Thus contributing to the
ranks of Sunni jihadists and | 3:27:03 | 3:27:07 | |
stirring sectarian hatreds.
Hezbollah has become Iran's | 3:27:07 | 3:27:12 | |
indispensable partner, the
Blackwater of Iran, as some have | 3:27:12 | 3:27:16 | |
labelled it, helping to promote and
further terror and's expansionist | 3:27:16 | 3:27:21 | |
agenda throughout the Middle East,
in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Such a | 3:27:21 | 3:27:26 | |
vast enterprise cannot be run on the
cheap. In addition to the vast sums | 3:27:26 | 3:27:31 | |
of weaponry and cash lavished on it
by Iran, the party of God is now | 3:27:31 | 3:27:37 | |
engaged in money laundering, arms
sales and drug smuggling. It works | 3:27:37 | 3:27:41 | |
through informal networks in
centrally run enterprises, the | 3:27:41 | 3:27:45 | |
latter, one leading Middle East
expert told the US Congress last | 3:27:45 | 3:27:51 | |
summer, operating like international
organised criminal entities. | 3:27:51 | 3:27:57 | |
Can I thank my right honourable
friend for giving way, but doesn't | 3:27:57 | 3:28:00 | |
the various elements she is now
describing show the indissoluble | 3:28:00 | 3:28:06 | |
nature of Hezbollah, not separate
wings, but in fact one single | 3:28:06 | 3:28:12 | |
terrorist entity? He is absolutely
right, and this is a distinction | 3:28:12 | 3:28:18 | |
that Hezbollah not only does not
recognise but the nice. As the House | 3:28:18 | 3:28:23 | |
will be aware, the British
Government has long held the view | 3:28:23 | 3:28:25 | |
that Hezbollah's military wing is
involved in conducting and | 3:28:25 | 3:28:29 | |
supporting terrorism. In 2001, the
Hezbollah security organisation was | 3:28:29 | 3:28:36 | |
added to the list of proscribed
organisations, which was extended in | 3:28:36 | 3:28:43 | |
2008 to the military wing, including
the jihad Council and all units | 3:28:43 | 3:28:48 | |
reporting to it, including the
external security organisation. | 3:28:48 | 3:28:52 | |
However, Hezbollah's political wing
is not proscribed. The distinction | 3:28:52 | 3:28:56 | |
is not one that Hezbollah itself is
of a recognised. I thank my | 3:28:56 | 3:29:03 | |
honourable friend for giving way.
Does she not agree that it should | 3:29:03 | 3:29:09 | |
make both the Government front bench
and our opposition front bench is | 3:29:09 | 3:29:15 | |
deeply uneasy that they are
currently effectively in an alliance | 3:29:15 | 3:29:19 | |
together on refusing to recognise
this bogus distinction between the | 3:29:19 | 3:29:26 | |
so-called military wing and the
rest? I agree with my honourable | 3:29:26 | 3:29:30 | |
friend and I am hoping that both
frontbenchers will take note of the | 3:29:30 | 3:29:33 | |
content of what I am saying and come
forward with policy positions that | 3:29:33 | 3:29:39 | |
support proscribing Hezbollah in its
entirety. The right honourable | 3:29:39 | 3:29:47 | |
member, is she aware of the poll
being conducted to show that 81% of | 3:29:47 | 3:29:52 | |
the public want to see Hezbollah
proscribed in its entirety? In which | 3:29:52 | 3:29:56 | |
he agree with me, and I see there
are some very honourable members on | 3:29:56 | 3:30:00 | |
the opposite benches, that the
Labour front bench have got this | 3:30:00 | 3:30:03 | |
issue wrong and should actually
agree with this motion rather than | 3:30:03 | 3:30:06 | |
oppose it? Obviously, unless the
Labour front bench is agreeing with | 3:30:06 | 3:30:16 | |
Mike and -- with my position, we
have a difference of opinion. I am | 3:30:16 | 3:30:20 | |
calling on the Government to change
their position. I agree with the | 3:30:20 | 3:30:24 | |
honourable gentleman, but I believe
his point would have more weight and | 3:30:24 | 3:30:28 | |
power if he addressed his own front
bench, as they are in a position to | 3:30:28 | 3:30:32 | |
lead and are not doing so. I will
give way. It is so great to see you | 3:30:32 | 3:30:38 | |
back in your seat, Mr Deputy
Speaker. I hot tailed it from my | 3:30:38 | 3:30:42 | |
office when I saw the honourable
lady on the television screen, and | 3:30:42 | 3:30:47 | |
was absolutely inspired by the
passion with which he is speaking. | 3:30:47 | 3:30:50 | |
She is a friend of Israel, as am I,
but does she agree with me that you | 3:30:50 | 3:30:55 | |
don't have to be a friend of Israel
to believe that Hezbollah in its | 3:30:55 | 3:31:00 | |
entirety is a terrorist organisation
as night you can be a friend of | 3:31:00 | 3:31:06 | |
Syria, of Lebanon, of the entire
Middle East, and you should want | 3:31:06 | 3:31:10 | |
Hezbollah in its entirety to be
banned. I agree with the honourable | 3:31:10 | 3:31:18 | |
gentleman, and I would add one
thing: Hezbollah are a terrorist | 3:31:18 | 3:31:23 | |
organisation and should be banned in
their entirety, whoever you are a | 3:31:23 | 3:31:27 | |
friend of, if you're not a friend of
the terrorists. Secondly, it is not | 3:31:27 | 3:31:32 | |
just for Jews to fight
anti-Semitism, and these are | 3:31:32 | 3:31:36 | |
anti-Semitic organisations. It is
for all of us to stand up on that. | 3:31:36 | 3:31:41 | |
The distinction is not one that
Hezbollah has ever recognised. In | 3:31:41 | 3:31:47 | |
fact, it has consistently and
explicitly refuted it. Its founding | 3:31:47 | 3:31:51 | |
document stated clearly, as to our
military power, nobody can imagine | 3:31:51 | 3:31:57 | |
it's dimensions because we do not
have a military agency separate from | 3:31:57 | 3:32:01 | |
the other parts of our body. Each of
us is a combat soldier, when jihad | 3:32:01 | 3:32:10 | |
demands it. It was made clear that
the same leadership that directs the | 3:32:10 | 3:32:19 | |
parliamentary work also leads jihad
actions in the struggle against | 3:32:19 | 3:32:23 | |
Israel. It couldn't be clearer. The
message was repeated three years | 3:32:23 | 3:32:28 | |
later, with it being declared, we
don't have Hezbollah on the one hand | 3:32:28 | 3:32:32 | |
and the resistance party on the
other. Every element of Hezbollah, | 3:32:32 | 3:32:36 | |
from commanders to members, as well
as our various capabilities, are in | 3:32:36 | 3:32:41 | |
the service of the resistance, and
we have nothing but the resistance | 3:32:41 | 3:32:43 | |
as a priority. These are Hezbollah's
own words. In 2013, natural himself | 3:32:43 | 3:32:52 | |
ruled out any notion that the
military and political wings were | 3:32:52 | 3:32:55 | |
somehow different. He said, though I
disagree on such separation, I | 3:32:55 | 3:33:04 | |
suggest that all ministers in the
upcoming Lebanese Government be from | 3:33:04 | 3:33:08 | |
the military wing of Hezbollah. He
also mocked our Government's | 3:33:08 | 3:33:11 | |
division between the two. The story
of military wing and political wing | 3:33:11 | 3:33:16 | |
is the work of the British. That is
what he said. It is a distinction | 3:33:16 | 3:33:19 | |
that with good reason many other
countries do not recognise. These | 3:33:19 | 3:33:25 | |
include the Netherlands, Canada, the
US, the Arab league and the Gulf | 3:33:25 | 3:33:29 | |
cooperation Council. I give way. The
honourable Lady's passion and | 3:33:29 | 3:33:37 | |
clarity is absolutely right. I
believe it is incumbent upon the | 3:33:37 | 3:33:40 | |
Government in principle to change
the policy. Is it not absolutely | 3:33:40 | 3:33:46 | |
possible to work with the Government
of Lebanon on, with whom we are | 3:33:46 | 3:33:51 | |
extremely friendly, whom we are
assisting to defend itself against | 3:33:51 | 3:33:53 | |
the depredations of IS and other
factions in Syria, is it not | 3:33:53 | 3:34:00 | |
possible to assist our legitimate
and welcomer allies in Lebanon | 3:34:00 | 3:34:04 | |
against that and yet still call out
this terrorist group for what it is? | 3:34:04 | 3:34:08 | |
For the violins in Syria, for the
destruction in northern Israel and | 3:34:08 | 3:34:11 | |
all around the region. Absolutely.
The honourable gentleman is right. | 3:34:11 | 3:34:18 | |
And those governments that do
proscribed Hezbollah in its entirety | 3:34:18 | 3:34:22 | |
do talk to the Lebanese Government.
If Hezbollah wishes to change its | 3:34:22 | 3:34:31 | |
views on Israel, to not obliterated,
and once to signal that it will give | 3:34:31 | 3:34:36 | |
up its arms, I'm sure, proscribed or
otherwise, that would be the right | 3:34:36 | 3:34:39 | |
road to take if they wish to take
part in any peace negotiations, | 3:34:39 | 3:34:43 | |
which they clearly do not. I know
many members of this Has don't | 3:34:43 | 3:34:51 | |
recognise this false distinction, as
is evident here today. Last summer, | 3:34:51 | 3:34:58 | |
marches in London displayed
Hezbollah flags, causing great | 3:34:58 | 3:35:01 | |
offence to so many, especially in
the Jewish community. Once again, | 3:35:01 | 3:35:06 | |
they were exploiting this bogus
separation which the Government | 3:35:06 | 3:35:09 | |
chooses to make. I pay tribute to
the Jewish community organisations | 3:35:09 | 3:35:15 | |
such as the community trust, the
board of deputies and the leadership | 3:35:15 | 3:35:20 | |
council which have tirelessly
campaigned on the issue of Hezbollah | 3:35:20 | 3:35:23 | |
proscription. I would like to thank
my friend the honourable member for | 3:35:23 | 3:35:27 | |
Liverpool Riverside, for Hendon, to
prescribe Hezbollah in its entirety. | 3:35:27 | 3:35:40 | |
It is not just unwillingness on the
Government's Park but also inability | 3:35:40 | 3:35:44 | |
to explain or justify why it will
not act. In conflict situations, I | 3:35:44 | 3:35:48 | |
understand it is necessary to keep
open channels of communication to | 3:35:48 | 3:35:52 | |
facilitate dialogue and to encourage
those engaged in violence to abandon | 3:35:52 | 3:35:58 | |
it for the ballot box. There is not
a shred of evidence to suggest that | 3:35:58 | 3:36:02 | |
this is Hezbollah's intention. Both
in its rhetoric and in its actions, | 3:36:02 | 3:36:06 | |
it shows no sign of changing. Nor do
I believe that banning the political | 3:36:06 | 3:36:16 | |
wing might somehow, as the chair of
the select committee has said, | 3:36:16 | 3:36:21 | |
impede our ties with Lebanon, where
Hezbollah exercises political and | 3:36:21 | 3:36:26 | |
military power. Banning it in its
entirety does not who have hampered | 3:36:26 | 3:36:31 | |
relationships with Red Bull in --
with Lebanon. I believe this | 3:36:31 | 3:36:38 | |
Government is simply not taking the
threat posed seriously. Only last | 3:36:38 | 3:36:42 | |
week I was informed by the Home
Office that it does not collect data | 3:36:42 | 3:36:45 | |
on the number of Hezbollah members
or supporters in the UK, a practice | 3:36:45 | 3:36:50 | |
followed by other European countries
such as Germany. The terrorism act | 3:36:50 | 3:36:57 | |
allows the Home Secretary to
prescribe an organisation which | 3:36:57 | 3:37:02 | |
commits or prepares acts of
terrorism, promotes or encourages | 3:37:02 | 3:37:08 | |
terrorism, including the unlawful
glorification of terrorism, or is | 3:37:08 | 3:37:12 | |
otherwise concerned in terrorism. As
I have demonstrated, I believe, | 3:37:12 | 3:37:16 | |
Hezbollah, an organisation which is
indivisible, more than meets those | 3:37:16 | 3:37:26 | |
criteria. Even the distinction
between the wings could be drawn, | 3:37:26 | 3:37:31 | |
the words of the former, promoting,
encouraging and glorifying | 3:37:31 | 3:37:35 | |
terrorism, would surely meet the
Government's criteria for | 3:37:35 | 3:37:41 | |
proscription. After last June's
terrorist attack at London Bridge, | 3:37:41 | 3:37:44 | |
the Prime Minister said, there is,
to be frank, far too much tolerance | 3:37:44 | 3:37:50 | |
of extremism in our country. I
agree. Hezbollah is an organisation | 3:37:50 | 3:37:56 | |
driven by hatred of Jews, which
encourages terrorism and calls for | 3:37:56 | 3:38:00 | |
the destruction of the Middle East's
only democracy, a key British ally | 3:38:00 | 3:38:04 | |
in the region. So long as her
Government does not proscribed | 3:38:04 | 3:38:09 | |
Hezbollah's so-called political
wing, that tolerance will continue. | 3:38:09 | 3:38:15 | |
The question is as on the order
paper. Can I suggest 10-12 minutes's | 3:38:15 | 3:38:26 | |
Theresa Villiers. I would like to
start by saying it is an honour to | 3:38:26 | 3:38:31 | |
follow the Right Honourable member
for Enfield North, because she has | 3:38:31 | 3:38:35 | |
made an exceptionally powerful
speech on an issue which matters to | 3:38:35 | 3:38:38 | |
so many of us. I would also like to
mention that an entry on my register | 3:38:38 | 3:38:45 | |
of interests visit to Israel that I
took in February. I would also like | 3:38:45 | 3:38:48 | |
to think the constituents who have
contacted me about this important | 3:38:48 | 3:38:52 | |
debate today to make their views
very clear that they want to see | 3:38:52 | 3:38:56 | |
Hezbollah band in its entirety. Mr
Deputy Speaker, it is wonderful to | 3:38:56 | 3:39:00 | |
see you in your chair, even for a
debate on a matter as sad and | 3:39:00 | 3:39:04 | |
serious as this. As the Right
Honourable member for Enfield North | 3:39:04 | 3:39:10 | |
has stated, and others intervening
as they did as well, the distinction | 3:39:10 | 3:39:15 | |
currently made in our law between
Hezbollah's political and military | 3:39:15 | 3:39:20 | |
wings is entirely artificial. This
is a single operation. That has been | 3:39:20 | 3:39:25 | |
stated by its leadership on numerous
occasions. For example, its deputy | 3:39:25 | 3:39:31 | |
leader has said that Hezbollah has
one leadership and one | 3:39:31 | 3:39:34 | |
administration. Hezbollah's
political leaders have a long | 3:39:34 | 3:39:40 | |
history of personal involvement in
the group's terrorist and criminal | 3:39:40 | 3:39:44 | |
activities. Its Secretary General is
believed to have taken part in | 3:39:44 | 3:39:52 | |
hostagetaking, plane hijacking and
violent attacks on rivals. Hezbollah | 3:39:52 | 3:39:56 | |
presents a clear danger to the
security of our country. The | 3:39:56 | 3:40:00 | |
decision to proscribed parts of the
organisation was prompted by the | 3:40:00 | 3:40:03 | |
2012 attack on a bus of Israeli
tourists in Bulgaria, but as we have | 3:40:03 | 3:40:09 | |
already heard this afternoon, the
list of their crimes and atrocities | 3:40:09 | 3:40:13 | |
is a long one, not least the
notorious truck bomb in Iris in | 3:40:13 | 3:40:21 | |
1994, which killed 85 people, -- in
Buenos Aires in 1994. Just a few | 3:40:21 | 3:40:31 | |
years ago, when a Hezbollah
operative in Cyprus was found guilty | 3:40:31 | 3:40:34 | |
of planning to attack Israelis, he
said he was collecting information | 3:40:34 | 3:40:38 | |
about Jews and this is what his
organisation was doing everywhere in | 3:40:38 | 3:40:42 | |
the world. We should be under no
illusion, Hezbollah proposes -- | 3:40:42 | 3:40:48 | |
poses a serious threat to the
citizens of this country, and to our | 3:40:48 | 3:40:53 | |
neighbours across Europe, and we
should proscribed it in all its | 3:40:53 | 3:40:56 | |
forms. In taking that step, the
Government would have considerable | 3:40:56 | 3:41:01 | |
support from this House, and from
the public will stop yesterday, the | 3:41:01 | 3:41:07 | |
Jewish News published details of a
wide-ranging poll they commissioned | 3:41:07 | 3:41:11 | |
covering some 2000 individuals. 44%
would support the political wing | 3:41:11 | 3:41:16 | |
being designated as a terrorist
group, compared to just 10% who | 3:41:16 | 3:41:21 | |
opposed. With 46% answering don't
know, that means that 81% of those | 3:41:21 | 3:41:26 | |
expressing a view backed designation
of the whole of Hezbollah as a | 3:41:26 | 3:41:33 | |
terrorist organisation. We should be
in no doubt that the question we are | 3:41:33 | 3:41:37 | |
debating today does matter in a very
real, practical way. By limiting | 3:41:37 | 3:41:43 | |
proscription to the so-called
military wing, we are undermining | 3:41:43 | 3:41:46 | |
the ability of the police to protect
us from the danger that this group | 3:41:46 | 3:41:49 | |
poses. The fact that some parts of
Hezbollah are not proscribed limits | 3:41:49 | 3:41:53 | |
the ability of law enforcement
agencies to seize funds using asset | 3:41:53 | 3:41:59 | |
freezing and forfeiture powers.
Classifying the whole of the | 3:41:59 | 3:42:03 | |
organisation as a terrorist group
would significantly constrain their | 3:42:03 | 3:42:07 | |
ability to raise funds and also stop
them using UK banks to transfer any | 3:42:07 | 3:42:11 | |
money around the world. I would
emphasise that terrorism isn't the | 3:42:11 | 3:42:16 | |
only type of unlawful activity in
which this organisation is involved. | 3:42:16 | 3:42:21 | |
Just a few weeks ago, the French
authorities referred a 15 member | 3:42:21 | 3:42:27 | |
Hezbollah sell to a criminal Court
on money laundering charges. In | 3:42:27 | 3:42:32 | |
October 2015, the US and French
authorities arrested two individuals | 3:42:32 | 3:42:35 | |
from Hezbollah, one in Atlanta and
one in Paris. They were caught | 3:42:35 | 3:42:39 | |
laundering drugs proceeds and
seeking to purchase weapons and | 3:42:39 | 3:42:42 | |
cocaine. According to court
documents, they used Hezbollah | 3:42:42 | 3:42:46 | |
connected associates to provide
security for narcotics shipments. | 3:42:46 | 3:42:54 | |
On associate apparently laundered
30,000 free US drug enforcement | 3:42:54 | 3:42:59 | |
undercover agent posing as a
narcotics trafficker. So the partial | 3:42:59 | 3:43:05 | |
description of tempting has not
deterred the group from engaging in | 3:43:05 | 3:43:10 | |
criminal conduct on bridges. The
security trust reports that his | 3:43:10 | 3:43:16 | |
brother has been involved in the
drug trade in South America. In 2016 | 3:43:16 | 3:43:20 | |
the drug enforcement agency
uncovered a massive his brother | 3:43:20 | 3:43:24 | |
money laundering and drug
trafficking scheme. In the view of | 3:43:24 | 3:43:28 | |
the DA, his brother enjoys
established business relationships | 3:43:28 | 3:43:31 | |
with the South American drug cartels
and is responsible for trafficking | 3:43:31 | 3:43:35 | |
large quantities of cocaine into
Europe and the US. Mr Deputy | 3:43:35 | 3:43:41 | |
Speaker, describing an organisation
is a very serious step to take. It's | 3:43:41 | 3:43:47 | |
right that the law sets out clear
criteria which have to be satisfied | 3:43:47 | 3:43:51 | |
before any minister can take this
decision. There can be no doubt that | 3:43:51 | 3:43:56 | |
those parts of his brother which are
over lead terrorist and military | 3:43:56 | 3:44:00 | |
fall squarely within the description
in subsection five and section three | 3:44:00 | 3:44:05 | |
of the Terrorism Act 2000, the
relevant legislation. In my view, | 3:44:05 | 3:44:10 | |
there is also a very strong case to
say that the criteria of subsection | 3:44:10 | 3:44:16 | |
five are also satisfied in relation
to the political wing of his | 3:44:16 | 3:44:20 | |
brother. The political leaders of
the organisation have promoted and | 3:44:20 | 3:44:25 | |
encouraged the group's terrorist
activities as we have heard | 3:44:25 | 3:44:32 | |
powerfully explained by the member
of Enfield North. It describes | 3:44:32 | 3:44:35 | |
itself as one single organisation
and that is how it should be treated | 3:44:35 | 3:44:41 | |
by our legal system. Quite frankly,
the march is a scandal. It's not | 3:44:41 | 3:44:49 | |
acceptable that people can fly the
his brother flag on the streets of | 3:44:49 | 3:44:54 | |
London and get away with it simply
by adding a post-it note saying | 3:44:54 | 3:45:00 | |
support shown is for the military
wing. This has got to stop. As the | 3:45:00 | 3:45:07 | |
campaign e-mails which arrived in
our inboxes pointed out, this is an | 3:45:07 | 3:45:10 | |
embarrassment. They are laughing at
us. In considering whether to | 3:45:10 | 3:45:15 | |
prescribe an organisation the Home
Office guidance states the Home | 3:45:15 | 3:45:17 | |
Secretary should take into account
factors including quote" the need to | 3:45:17 | 3:45:22 | |
support other members of the
international community in the | 3:45:22 | 3:45:26 | |
global fight against terrorism."
It's time we followed the lead set | 3:45:26 | 3:45:30 | |
by countries like the USA, Canada
and the Netherlands, who have | 3:45:30 | 3:45:35 | |
implemented full prescription. His
brother have been carrying out | 3:45:35 | 3:45:38 | |
murderous attacks in countries
around the world for over 30 years. | 3:45:38 | 3:45:42 | |
It is an organisation heavily
implicated in crime and money | 3:45:42 | 3:45:47 | |
laundering, as well as being a
deeply malevolent presence in the | 3:45:47 | 3:45:51 | |
Syrian war. It is a violent
anti-Semitic organisation whose main | 3:45:51 | 3:45:57 | |
ambition is the complete destruction
of the state of Israel. We should | 3:45:57 | 3:46:00 | |
ban it, all of it, now. Thank you Mr
Deputy Speaker and it's fantastic to | 3:46:00 | 3:46:09 | |
see you back in the chair. I want to
congratulate the honourable member | 3:46:09 | 3:46:16 | |
for her speech, I agree with every
word. I thought the speech by my | 3:46:16 | 3:46:20 | |
right honourable friend the member
for Enfield North was absolutely | 3:46:20 | 3:46:24 | |
superb, absolutely brilliant. And
she should be commended for that. I | 3:46:24 | 3:46:29 | |
want to thank all the people from
Dudley who have written to me about | 3:46:29 | 3:46:32 | |
this issue, telling me they think
Hezbollah is a terrorist | 3:46:32 | 3:46:37 | |
organisation and should be banned in
its entirety and that waiving its | 3:46:37 | 3:46:41 | |
flag as an incitement to terrorism
and violence. As we've heard, this | 3:46:41 | 3:46:47 | |
organisation has carried out
terrorist attacks and racist | 3:46:47 | 3:46:49 | |
murderers in the Middle East, Europe
and the rest of the world. Its | 3:46:49 | 3:46:52 | |
stated aim is the destruction of
Israel but it does not limit its | 3:46:52 | 3:46:56 | |
attacks to people in Israel, it
targets Jewish people anywhere and | 3:46:56 | 3:47:01 | |
everywhere. It is not true to claim
that there is a political wing and a | 3:47:01 | 3:47:04 | |
military wing. As has been said
already. Hezbollah itself does not | 3:47:04 | 3:47:10 | |
make this distinction and this
supposedly distinction undermines | 3:47:10 | 3:47:21 | |
the fight against terrorism. That is
why the United States, France, the | 3:47:21 | 3:47:23 | |
Gulf Corporation Counsel, Canada,
the Netherlands and Israel have all | 3:47:23 | 3:47:25 | |
prescribe Hezbollah in full on why I
can't understand our government is | 3:47:25 | 3:47:28 | |
not prepared or has not been
prepared to do the same. I very much | 3:47:28 | 3:47:30 | |
hope that that stance will change as
a result of this debate this | 3:47:30 | 3:47:34 | |
afternoon. Of course.
Thank you very much for giving way. | 3:47:34 | 3:47:37 | |
We've heard in the past prescribing
Hezbollah might be destabilising to | 3:47:37 | 3:47:44 | |
Lebanon and the wider region but
does he not agree that by engaging | 3:47:44 | 3:47:48 | |
in this pretence and indulging a
terrorist organisation, people we | 3:47:48 | 3:47:52 | |
are destabilising the many moderates
who are marginalising extremists and | 3:47:52 | 3:48:00 | |
Hezbollah?
He is completely right about that. | 3:48:00 | 3:48:02 | |
It's a point my right honourable
friend for Enfield North made | 3:48:02 | 3:48:05 | |
opening this debate and a point made
very eloquently by the chair of the | 3:48:05 | 3:48:09 | |
foreign affairs select committee. I
think it is completely unacceptable | 3:48:09 | 3:48:15 | |
to see Hezbollah's flag waved on the
streets of Britain and it's | 3:48:15 | 3:48:19 | |
disgusting to hear the virulently
racist views and racist chanting | 3:48:19 | 3:48:24 | |
which accompanies it. So I agree
with many of the points made already | 3:48:24 | 3:48:27 | |
today. There are three particular
issues on which I want to focus. | 3:48:27 | 3:48:32 | |
First I want to talk about the role
of Hezbollah in the Middle East and | 3:48:32 | 3:48:34 | |
its impact on the peace process
between Israel and the Palestinians. | 3:48:34 | 3:48:38 | |
We have debated that many times in
this house but we should be | 3:48:38 | 3:48:41 | |
absolutely under no illusion at all
that the difficult issues that | 3:48:41 | 3:48:46 | |
negotiations will need to confront,
borders, land swaps, status of | 3:48:46 | 3:48:51 | |
Jerusalem, all of these issues,
let's be honest, none of these are | 3:48:51 | 3:48:55 | |
issues which remotely interest
Hezbollah. It is not interested in | 3:48:55 | 3:48:59 | |
compromises all sides need to make
to bring about a two state solution. | 3:48:59 | 3:49:03 | |
Its sole interest is the destruction
of Israel. Hezbollah itself has made | 3:49:03 | 3:49:07 | |
this absolutely clear. The war is an
integrated 1992, until Israel ceases | 3:49:07 | 3:49:14 | |
to exist and the last Jewish person
in the world has been eliminated. | 3:49:14 | 3:49:19 | |
Israel is completely evil and must
be a raise from the face of the | 3:49:19 | 3:49:22 | |
earth" | 3:49:22 | 3:49:22 | |
be a raise from the face of the
earth". That's why when Israel | 3:49:22 | 3:49:27 | |
unilaterally withdrew from southern
Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah's | 3:49:27 | 3:49:31 | |
response wasn't peace but the murder
and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers | 3:49:31 | 3:49:35 | |
and an avalanche of rocket attacks
just six years later. That is why | 3:49:35 | 3:49:41 | |
today Hezbollah, thanks to its
uranium paymasters, threatens Israel | 3:49:41 | 3:49:44 | |
by pointing 120-140,000 rockets that
the country. In October, one of the | 3:49:44 | 3:49:53 | |
Hezbollah leaders urged Jewish
people to flee Israel before its | 3:49:53 | 3:49:59 | |
devastated by war. Last February he
warned there would be no red lines | 3:49:59 | 3:50:03 | |
in any future conflict between the
terror group and Israel. In April, | 3:50:03 | 3:50:09 | |
boasted of his organisation's
preparedness for war and in June he | 3:50:09 | 3:50:15 | |
spoke of "Hundreds of thousands of
Shia fighters from across the Middle | 3:50:15 | 3:50:18 | |
East who would rush to Hezbollah's
five-minute next takes the fight to | 3:50:18 | 3:50:23 | |
the Jewish state."
Here's making an excellent case as | 3:50:23 | 3:50:30 | |
he always does. It's also really
important, is it not, to keep | 3:50:30 | 3:50:36 | |
reminding people of the role
Hezbollah has played in training the | 3:50:36 | 3:50:39 | |
Houthi rebels, which is causing such
terrible carnage and destruction and | 3:50:39 | 3:50:45 | |
death in Yemen. Lebanon, Israel, in
Syria and in Yemen, Hezbollah is | 3:50:45 | 3:50:55 | |
causing carnage across the Middle
East and that is its stated aim. | 3:50:55 | 3:50:59 | |
I thank my honourable friend, the
honourable gentleman for giving way. | 3:50:59 | 3:51:02 | |
Would he agree that actually one of
the best ways of defeating Hezbollah | 3:51:02 | 3:51:05 | |
is by trying to install or encourage
or assist a stable, functioning | 3:51:05 | 3:51:12 | |
Lebanese state? That is complete
clap. This is a point made very | 3:51:12 | 3:51:16 | |
eloquently by the chair of the
foreign affairs select committee | 3:51:16 | 3:51:19 | |
earlier. Look, he goes to the Middle
East a lot and knows a lot people | 3:51:19 | 3:51:23 | |
there. He is an expert on the region
and what he says is worth listening | 3:51:23 | 3:51:26 | |
to. I very much hope his front bench
will be listening to the advice that | 3:51:26 | 3:51:32 | |
they've just been given. Analysts
warn that the next conflict between | 3:51:32 | 3:51:40 | |
Israel and Hezbollah will likely be
the most destructive Arab Israeli | 3:51:40 | 3:51:44 | |
war yet. Israel's military believes
in a future conflict, Hezbollah will | 3:51:44 | 3:51:47 | |
be able to launch 1500 rockets and
missiles a day. Israel has increased | 3:51:47 | 3:51:54 | |
its defensive capabilities but
Hezbollah is likely to target | 3:51:54 | 3:51:58 | |
military facilities, important
infrastructure and civilian | 3:51:58 | 3:52:00 | |
population centres as well. In the
past, they have threatened that | 3:52:00 | 3:52:04 | |
Hezbollah will attack a nuclear
reactor. I was in Haifa just over 20 | 3:52:04 | 3:52:18 | |
miles from the border with Lebanon.
And the sight of Israel's oil | 3:52:18 | 3:52:22 | |
refinery and one of the main targets
first Hezbollah. Imagine the carnage | 3:52:22 | 3:52:27 | |
and devastation and the civilian
deaths that could result when | 3:52:27 | 3:52:32 | |
Hezbollah start raining down
missiles and Haifa in a future | 3:52:32 | 3:52:35 | |
conflict, as they have done from
just a few miles away in the past. | 3:52:35 | 3:52:40 | |
Now sadly Israel's experience in
southern Lebanon was that repeated | 3:52:40 | 3:52:46 | |
in Gaza. Israel signed an agreement
on movement on access with the | 3:52:46 | 3:52:51 | |
Palestinian Authority that gave the
Palestinians control of their | 3:52:51 | 3:52:53 | |
builders for the first time in
history, allowed imports and exports | 3:52:53 | 3:52:58 | |
and approved construction of a
seaport and discussions on an | 3:52:58 | 3:53:01 | |
airport. They pulled out of Gaza but
just as in Lebanon, a terrorist | 3:53:01 | 3:53:06 | |
organisation, a powerful armed
militia, this time Hamas, also | 3:53:06 | 3:53:11 | |
equipped by Iran just as committed
to the destruction of Israel | 3:53:11 | 3:53:14 | |
launched a coup, band of actions --
band elections, executed people | 3:53:14 | 3:53:22 | |
outside mosques up after Friday
prayers and declared themselves the | 3:53:22 | 3:53:27 | |
new rulers of Gaza and that they
would use the strip as a basis to | 3:53:27 | 3:53:33 | |
destroy Israel. So the unilateral
withdrawal of 8500 Israelis from | 3:53:33 | 3:53:38 | |
Gaza was not met by peace but by
rockets and attack tunnels after | 3:53:38 | 3:53:43 | |
Hamas's but brutal takeover. You can
understand why when you look at the | 3:53:43 | 3:53:46 | |
experience in Lebanon and Gaza, you
can understand why. But the people | 3:53:46 | 3:53:50 | |
in here, like it or not, the
experience in Lebanon and Gaza makes | 3:53:50 | 3:53:55 | |
the Israelis very reticent about
pulling out of the West Bank. The | 3:53:55 | 3:53:59 | |
uranium proxy Hezbollah poses a
significant threat to the security | 3:53:59 | 3:54:04 | |
and stability, as we just heard from
my honourable friend from Barrow, in | 3:54:04 | 3:54:09 | |
the Middle East, explicitly the
whole of the Middle East, not just | 3:54:09 | 3:54:12 | |
Israel. This is the second point I
want to make... That Hezbollah has | 3:54:12 | 3:54:19 | |
played a particularly pernicious and
powerful role in the internal | 3:54:19 | 3:54:22 | |
affairs of Lebanon. Its Armed Forces
have been described as more | 3:54:22 | 3:54:25 | |
effective than Lebanon's, comets and
its military power is used on | 3:54:25 | 3:54:29 | |
occasion to pressurise the Lebanese
government, allowing Iran to | 3:54:29 | 3:54:32 | |
exercise influence of the country.
Once seen as a state within the | 3:54:32 | 3:54:37 | |
state, Hezbollah's growing influence
threatens to bring Israel's northern | 3:54:37 | 3:54:41 | |
neighbour and army into a future
conflict. The third point I want to | 3:54:41 | 3:54:45 | |
make is this. Hezbollah's so-called
resistance against Israel is | 3:54:45 | 3:54:52 | |
influenced, as we had, by its deeply
anti-Semitic ideology. The group was | 3:54:52 | 3:54:57 | |
Michael leader has said if Jewish
people or gather in Israel it will | 3:54:57 | 3:55:02 | |
save us the trouble of going after
them worldwide. He also suggested | 3:55:02 | 3:55:07 | |
God imprinted blasphemy on the
hearts of the Jewish people. | 3:55:07 | 3:55:12 | |
Hezbollah's debited leader has said
the history of Jewish people has | 3:55:12 | 3:55:16 | |
proved that regardless of the
proposal, they are a people who are | 3:55:16 | 3:55:21 | |
evil in their ideas. And that late
grand Ayatollah, one of Hezbollah's | 3:55:21 | 3:55:28 | |
most influential figures, pedalled
anti-Semitic conspiracy theories | 3:55:28 | 3:55:34 | |
about Jewish people. He said, the
Jewish people want to be a world | 3:55:34 | 3:55:39 | |
superpower, they will work on the
basis Jewish interests are above all | 3:55:39 | 3:55:42 | |
world interests.
Now I have criticised the Government | 3:55:42 | 3:55:46 | |
for not prescribing Hezbollah but I
also want to address my address some | 3:55:46 | 3:55:55 | |
remarks to my own party as well. I
want to say this... In 2009, at a | 3:55:55 | 3:56:00 | |
meeting of the so-called the war
coalition, which I think was | 3:56:00 | 3:56:06 | |
probably the worst or
inappropriately named organisation | 3:56:06 | 3:56:10 | |
in British politics... The leader of
the Labour Party said that he | 3:56:10 | 3:56:14 | |
invited "Friends" from Hamas and
Hezbollah to an event in Parliament. | 3:56:14 | 3:56:20 | |
Later when asked what he called them
friends, he said, "I use it in a | 3:56:20 | 3:56:25 | |
collective way, saying our friends
are prepared to talk". And he said | 3:56:25 | 3:56:29 | |
"There is not going to be a peace
process unless there is talks | 3:56:29 | 3:56:34 | |
involving Israel, Hezbollah and
Hamas". Firstly, who would describe | 3:56:34 | 3:56:39 | |
a racist and terrorist organisation
might Hezbollah as friends? Who | 3:56:39 | 3:56:47 | |
would do that? I think social
Democrats, indeed all Democrats, | 3:56:47 | 3:56:51 | |
should always be crystal clear about
describing totalitarian movements | 3:56:51 | 3:56:57 | |
and governments, whether that is
Hezbollah or for instance the | 3:56:57 | 3:57:01 | |
Iranian dictatorship which backs
Hezbollah. And second, I think the | 3:57:01 | 3:57:06 | |
statement by the leaders of
Hezbollah make it very, very clear | 3:57:06 | 3:57:10 | |
that they have absolutely no
interest in negotiations and | 3:57:10 | 3:57:14 | |
compromises which could lead to
peace, adding that is very clear. | 3:57:14 | 3:57:18 | |
The idea that Hezbollah is a partner
for peace is utterly misguided. | 3:57:18 | 3:57:23 | |
Their contribution to the Oslo peace
process was to threaten to move a | 3:57:23 | 3:57:28 | |
Jewish tourists and businessmen...
But even if they said all that to | 3:57:28 | 3:57:35 | |
one side, I don't think the
leadership of our party has shown | 3:57:35 | 3:57:39 | |
the same interest in speaking to the
Israelis. | 3:57:39 | 3:57:41 | |
Invitations to meet Labour but own
sister party, to visit Israel and | 3:57:48 | 3:57:57 | |
talk to them about their plans to
bring the conflict to an end, have | 3:57:57 | 3:58:00 | |
not been accepted. The conflict
between Israelis and Palestinians is | 3:58:00 | 3:58:07 | |
enormously difficult and complex and
there are no easy answers and if | 3:58:07 | 3:58:10 | |
there were they would have been
found by now but some elements are | 3:58:10 | 3:58:14 | |
terrible and others, in the case of
Hezbollah is one of them, this is an | 3:58:14 | 3:58:19 | |
antique Semitic racist terrorist
group -- anti-Semitic for the they | 3:58:19 | 3:58:26 | |
wish to murder dues around the
world. Hezbollah is part of the | 3:58:26 | 3:58:30 | |
problem and it will never be part of
the solution and that is why this | 3:58:30 | 3:58:33 | |
house and our government should
agree today to prescribe it in its | 3:58:33 | 3:58:37 | |
entirety. | 3:58:37 | 3:58:40 | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker | 3:58:42 | 3:58:44 | |
may I say how pleased I am to see
you in the chair today, and I also | 3:58:46 | 3:58:50 | |
congratulate the right honourable
member for Enfield North on her | 3:58:50 | 3:58:54 | |
opening and for securing this
important debate and the backbench | 3:58:54 | 3:58:57 | |
business committee for facilitating
it. I should declare an interest, as | 3:58:57 | 3:59:01 | |
chair of the Council for Arab
British understanding. There is no | 3:59:01 | 3:59:09 | |
doubt Hezbollah is a terrorist
organisation, indeed it is one of | 3:59:09 | 3:59:12 | |
the largest and most powerful and
most vicious and most dangerous | 3:59:12 | 3:59:16 | |
terrorist organisations in the
world. Although it is ostensibly a | 3:59:16 | 3:59:20 | |
political party, and indeed is one
of the key players, in Lebanon, it | 3:59:20 | 3:59:27 | |
also over the and rigidly adheres to
the revolution agenda of Iran. Its | 3:59:27 | 3:59:41 | |
emergence in 1982 was directly
attributable to the intervention of | 3:59:41 | 3:59:43 | |
Iran. And the influence of Iran was
made clear in Hezbollah's manifesto | 3:59:43 | 3:59:53 | |
dated 1985 stated, we are the sons,
the party of God, the vanguard of | 3:59:53 | 3:59:57 | |
which was made victorious by God in
Iran. Hezbollah in truth is an | 3:59:57 | 4:00:03 | |
Iranian proxy, closely associated
with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary | 4:00:03 | 4:00:11 | |
guard and like Iran it considers the
United States and Israel to be its | 4:00:11 | 4:00:14 | |
principal enemies. Early in its
existence, Hezbollah pledged | 4:00:14 | 4:00:19 | |
allegiance to Ayatollah hum --
Hameni, and since his death it has | 4:00:19 | 4:00:30 | |
pledged allegiance to his successor
for them so enjoys the concept of | 4:00:30 | 4:00:36 | |
resistance, chiefly to the United
States and Israel, and resistance is | 4:00:36 | 4:00:41 | |
Hezbollah code for terrorist
activity. And indeed the history of | 4:00:41 | 4:00:46 | |
Hezbollah has been one of one
terrorist act after another. In | 4:00:46 | 4:00:53 | |
April 1983, shortly after its
formation, it carried out a suicide | 4:00:53 | 4:00:56 | |
attack on the United States Embassy
in Beirut killing 63 people, six | 4:00:56 | 4:01:00 | |
months later there was another
suicide bombing of the US Marine | 4:01:00 | 4:01:05 | |
barracks in Beirut which killed 241.
US nationals have been repeatedly | 4:01:05 | 4:01:11 | |
targeted by Hezbollah and indeed
Hezbollah was responsible for | 4:01:11 | 4:01:16 | |
killing more Americans than any
other terrorist organisation until | 4:01:16 | 4:01:21 | |
the attacks on New York City on
9/11. Israel has also been the | 4:01:21 | 4:01:30 | |
repeated target of Hezbollah
terrorism, and after Israel withdrew | 4:01:30 | 4:01:33 | |
from south Lebanon in 2000,
Hezbollah carried out numerous | 4:01:33 | 4:01:38 | |
cross-border incursions, culminating
in an attack in July 2006 that | 4:01:38 | 4:01:44 | |
killed eight Israeli soldiers. In
the conflict that followed, | 4:01:44 | 4:01:50 | |
Hezbollah fired thousands of Iranian
supplied rockets into Israeli | 4:01:50 | 4:01:55 | |
territory killing 39 civilians and
120 soldiers. Hezbollah has also | 4:01:55 | 4:02:01 | |
planned and executed many other
terrorist attacks outside the region | 4:02:01 | 4:02:04 | |
including on the European continent
and currently two Hezbollah | 4:02:04 | 4:02:10 | |
operatives are being tried in their
absence for the 2012 bombing of a | 4:02:10 | 4:02:14 | |
bus carrying Israeli citizens at an
airport in Bulgaria. Such actions | 4:02:14 | 4:02:20 | |
are seen to be part of the so-called
resistance to Israel, that is one of | 4:02:20 | 4:02:29 | |
Hezbollah's devout objectives, and
many of the attacks have been on | 4:02:29 | 4:02:35 | |
non-Israeli Jewish people and Jewish
interests and the right honourable | 4:02:35 | 4:02:37 | |
lady gave an extensive catalogue of
those attacks. Quite understandably | 4:02:37 | 4:02:44 | |
and quite probably, Hezbollah has
been designated a terrorist | 4:02:44 | 4:02:51 | |
organisation in many parts of the
world, and in 1996 Israel listed | 4:02:51 | 4:02:54 | |
Hezbollah as a terrorist
organisation followed by the United | 4:02:54 | 4:02:59 | |
States in 1997 and it has also been
prescribed by Canada, the | 4:02:59 | 4:03:03 | |
Netherlands, New Zealand, France and
Bahrain, and in March 2016 the Gulf | 4:03:03 | 4:03:08 | |
cooperation Council designated
Hezbollah as a terrorist | 4:03:08 | 4:03:13 | |
organisation, stressing its status
as a proxy for Iran in regional | 4:03:13 | 4:03:16 | |
conflicts including the pithy
rebellion in Yemen. The | 4:03:16 | 4:03:23 | |
Secretary-General commented that the
GCC states the practices in the | 4:03:23 | 4:03:30 | |
Council states of Hezbollah and
their sub versus axe -- subversive | 4:03:30 | 4:03:37 | |
acts being carried out pose a threat
to Arab national security and | 4:03:37 | 4:03:45 | |
international law, and very recently
in November of last year most of the | 4:03:45 | 4:03:49 | |
Arab league's 22 members condemned
Hezbollah as a terrorist | 4:03:49 | 4:03:53 | |
organisation stating it was
supporting terrorist groups across | 4:03:53 | 4:03:56 | |
the Middle East by supplying them
with weapons including ballistic | 4:03:56 | 4:03:58 | |
missiles. The United Kingdom's
position on Hezbollah has been | 4:03:58 | 4:04:05 | |
somewhat more nuanced. In 2001 UK
prescribed Hezbollah's external | 4:04:05 | 4:04:16 | |
security organisation under the
terrorism act that prescription was | 4:04:16 | 4:04:19 | |
extended to the military of
Hezbollah including the jihad | 4:04:19 | 4:04:22 | |
Council in 2008, as a consequence of
their targeting of British soldiers | 4:04:22 | 4:04:27 | |
in Iraq. The UK was instrumental in
persuading the European Union to | 4:04:27 | 4:04:35 | |
designate the military wing as a
terrorist entity in 2013 but the | 4:04:35 | 4:04:41 | |
British government has consistently
been reluctant to extend the | 4:04:41 | 4:04:44 | |
prescription to the entirety of
Hezbollah. In a memorandum to the | 4:04:44 | 4:04:50 | |
European scrutiny committee in
August 2013 the then minister for | 4:04:50 | 4:04:56 | |
Europe, now the Chancellor of the
Duchy, stated that although the UK | 4:04:56 | 4:05:01 | |
does not engage with Hezbollah's
political wing, some EU member | 4:05:01 | 4:05:05 | |
states to engage with it as a
political party in Lebanon, and | 4:05:05 | 4:05:09 | |
therefore they had concerns over the
effect of a EU designation on their | 4:05:09 | 4:05:13 | |
engagement. By differentiating
between Hezbollah's military | 4:05:13 | 4:05:19 | |
ampicillin is the designation, he
said, would not prevent those member | 4:05:19 | 4:05:24 | |
states from maintaining such contact
-- military wing. He said the | 4:05:24 | 4:05:33 | |
military wing of Hezbollah were
separate from the political wing | 4:05:33 | 4:05:35 | |
which included members of Parliament
and was overseen by a political | 4:05:35 | 4:05:40 | |
council. Mr Deputy Speaker, I would
suggest that that distinction is | 4:05:40 | 4:05:45 | |
completely illusory. The fact is
Hezbollah itself denies that there | 4:05:45 | 4:05:51 | |
is any distinction to be drawn
between its military and political | 4:05:51 | 4:05:55 | |
wings. Would you give way? I will.
You are making a very persuasive | 4:05:55 | 4:06:03 | |
speech does he not agree that it
would be as absurd to suggest that | 4:06:03 | 4:06:08 | |
you can distinguish between the
British government and the British | 4:06:08 | 4:06:12 | |
Armed Forces and that somehow you
could declare the British Armed | 4:06:12 | 4:06:15 | |
Forces an enemy without declaring
the British government an enemy? The | 4:06:15 | 4:06:20 | |
Armed Forces are under the control
of and the direction of the | 4:06:20 | 4:06:23 | |
political arm of Hezbollah and they
must be treated as one. You are | 4:06:23 | 4:06:29 | |
entirely right and I agree, and more
to the point Hezbollah also agrees. | 4:06:29 | 4:06:35 | |
Their deputy general secretary
declared that their deadly -- deputy | 4:06:35 | 4:06:45 | |
head is the head of the jihad
Council and this means we have one | 4:06:45 | 4:06:48 | |
leadership with one administration
and in 2012 he said we don't have a | 4:06:48 | 4:06:52 | |
military wing and a political one,
we don't have Hezbollah on one hand | 4:06:52 | 4:06:56 | |
and the resistance party on the
other, every element of Hezbollah | 4:06:56 | 4:07:00 | |
from commanders to members as well
as our various capabilities is in | 4:07:00 | 4:07:05 | |
the service of the resistance and we
have nothing but the resistance as a | 4:07:05 | 4:07:10 | |
priority, so the fact is Hezbollah
is in reality a single entity. It is | 4:07:10 | 4:07:17 | |
ludicrous to suggest it isn't. As a
single entity it is a threat to the | 4:07:17 | 4:07:24 | |
entire world, British interests not
least Arafat did buy it. And my | 4:07:24 | 4:07:27 | |
right honourable friend gave a
catalogue of the extent to which | 4:07:27 | 4:07:34 | |
Hezbollah are carrying out
activities which are directly | 4:07:34 | 4:07:38 | |
threatening British interests and
also carrying out crimes on the | 4:07:38 | 4:07:43 | |
streets of Britain. Arguably as
dangerous, Hezbollah protesters | 4:07:43 | 4:07:51 | |
routinely display Hezbollah flags on
the streets of London at events, | 4:07:51 | 4:07:59 | |
disingenuously labelling them as
flags of the political wing of | 4:07:59 | 4:08:01 | |
Hezbollah rather than its military
wing. It's very clear that the | 4:08:01 | 4:08:08 | |
partial ban is not having the
desired effect or much effect at | 4:08:08 | 4:08:13 | |
all. The government has contended
that banning the organisation might | 4:08:13 | 4:08:21 | |
destabilise the political order in
Lebanon. Well, however, I would | 4:08:21 | 4:08:26 | |
suggest that the greatest
destabilising influence in Lebanon | 4:08:26 | 4:08:31 | |
is Hezbollah itself. Four Hezbollah
members are being tried before the | 4:08:31 | 4:08:40 | |
special tribunal for Lebanon in
connection with the murder of the | 4:08:40 | 4:08:45 | |
late Lebanese Prime Minister. Won
forces have supported the Vashem of | 4:08:45 | 4:08:53 | |
Bashir Al Assad in Syria --
Hezbollah forces have supported the | 4:08:53 | 4:08:59 | |
regime. Madame Jeopardy speaker,
whilst I understand the concerns and | 4:08:59 | 4:09:06 | |
the desires of the government, I
would suggest that the partial | 4:09:06 | 4:09:10 | |
prescription has not have the effect
either of curbing Hezbollah's | 4:09:10 | 4:09:15 | |
terrorist activities and clearing
them from the UK -- Madame Deputy | 4:09:15 | 4:09:22 | |
Speaker. Hezbollah is on our
streets, waving their flags and | 4:09:22 | 4:09:27 | |
thumbing their noses at the British
government, and consequently I would | 4:09:27 | 4:09:30 | |
urge the government to give
reconsideration to its stance on | 4:09:30 | 4:09:35 | |
this issue. And to conclude that
Hezbollah, a dangerous aggressive | 4:09:35 | 4:09:43 | |
terrorist organisation that is a
threat to regional stability and the | 4:09:43 | 4:09:45 | |
security of this country, should be
prescribed in its entirety. Thank | 4:09:45 | 4:09:51 | |
you. It is a great privilege to
follow so many excellent | 4:09:51 | 4:09:58 | |
contributions from all sides of the
house and I would like to thank my | 4:09:58 | 4:10:02 | |
right honourable friend for securing
this very important debate and for | 4:10:02 | 4:10:06 | |
her very powerful contribution in
opening this extremely important | 4:10:06 | 4:10:11 | |
debate here today. Hezbollah is a
radical Shia Islamist terrorist | 4:10:11 | 4:10:20 | |
organisation founded in rancid after
1979 revolution. -- in Iran. It is | 4:10:20 | 4:10:28 | |
anti-Semitic and carries out acts of
international terrorism and it | 4:10:28 | 4:10:30 | |
should be prescribed in his
entirety. Instead the UK accents the | 4:10:30 | 4:10:36 | |
spurious distinction between their
political and military wings, | 4:10:36 | 4:10:43 | |
banning the military wing but
permitting the so-called political | 4:10:43 | 4:10:45 | |
wing to operate. As members have
pointed out in this debate, | 4:10:45 | 4:10:51 | |
Hezbollah itself does not accept
this distinctive and four example | 4:10:51 | 4:10:57 | |
the deputy Secretary General said in
2012 very explicitly that we don't | 4:10:57 | 4:11:04 | |
have a military wing and a political
one, we don't have Hezbollah on the | 4:11:04 | 4:11:09 | |
one hand and the resistance party on
the other. The evidence that | 4:11:09 | 4:11:14 | |
Hezbollah engages in terrorism and
in genders hate is overwhelming, | 4:11:14 | 4:11:20 | |
they were behind the bombing of the
Jewish amenity centre in Argentina | 4:11:20 | 4:11:25 | |
-- community centre. Killing 85
people. It has murdered people, | 4:11:25 | 4:11:33 | |
Jewish, Christian, Muslims, and
others, in places like Nigeria, | 4:11:33 | 4:11:36 | |
Thailand, Bulgaria and Cyprus and it
is complicit with the murderous | 4:11:36 | 4:11:40 | |
Assad regime in Syria. Operating
with Assad and with Iran, it is part | 4:11:40 | 4:11:46 | |
of the axis of resistance which
seeks to confront Sunni power, | 4:11:46 | 4:11:51 | |
Western influence and Israel, it is
a malign influence. Hezbollah | 4:11:51 | 4:11:57 | |
explicitly promotes anti-Semitism.
Hezbollah TV was the first media | 4:11:57 | 4:12:05 | |
outlet to make the false claim that
4000 dues did not go to work at the | 4:12:05 | 4:12:20 | |
world trade tower, and this lie has
now become a widespread anti-Semitic | 4:12:20 | 4:12:24 | |
libel. Their message insights
violence. A person who has studied | 4:12:24 | 4:12:33 | |
the anti-Semitic motives has
concluded that their brand of | 4:12:33 | 4:12:35 | |
anti-Semitism is typical of
contemporary violent Islamist | 4:12:35 | 4:12:39 | |
groups. Describing it as combining
traditional Islamist perceptions | 4:12:39 | 4:12:47 | |
with western anti-Semitic
terminology and motives to express | 4:12:47 | 4:12:49 | |
its oppositions to Zionism which in
turn is equated not only with the | 4:12:49 | 4:12:55 | |
state of Israel but with imperialism
and Western arrogance. | 4:12:55 | 4:13:03 | |
This issue has very serious
implications for us here in the UK. | 4:13:03 | 4:13:08 | |
At the annual march in London last
June, Hezbollah's green and yellow | 4:13:08 | 4:13:13 | |
flag, the same flag displayed at
military operations, was put on | 4:13:13 | 4:13:18 | |
show. The purpose of the March is to
agitate for violent resistance and | 4:13:18 | 4:13:26 | |
the destruction of the state of
Israel. At the centre of the flag, | 4:13:26 | 4:13:32 | |
the largest Arabic word in green
reeds Hezbollah. Out of the word | 4:13:32 | 4:13:37 | |
Hezbollah emerges a globe within
upraised arm and an assault rifle. | 4:13:37 | 4:13:43 | |
The letter a is linked to the
upraised arm grasping the assault | 4:13:43 | 4:13:49 | |
rifle, symbolising the
legitimisation of the armed | 4:13:49 | 4:13:53 | |
resistance as being divinely
sanctioned. That message is clear, | 4:13:53 | 4:13:59 | |
it is menacing and it is extremely
powerful. The menacing chanting that | 4:13:59 | 4:14:06 | |
took place at that march on the
streets of London last year included | 4:14:06 | 4:14:10 | |
the heinous chanting Zionist Isis is
fine, the only difference is the | 4:14:10 | 4:14:21 | |
name.
Thank you. It's worth pointing out | 4:14:21 | 4:14:25 | |
the march was led by the director of
the Islamic human rights commission, | 4:14:25 | 4:14:29 | |
who during his speech blamed the
Grenfell Tower tragedy and the | 4:14:29 | 4:14:34 | |
Zionists, which as we all know it is
a euphemism for Jews. The whole | 4:14:34 | 4:14:39 | |
enterprise was entirely bonkers, as
well as being anti-Semitic. | 4:14:39 | 4:14:44 | |
The honourable member makes a very
important point. Indeed, I will make | 4:14:44 | 4:14:49 | |
reference to the Grenfell Tower
disaster in a moment or two in my | 4:14:49 | 4:14:53 | |
contribution.
All of this is inciting violence, | 4:14:53 | 4:14:59 | |
hatred and division here on the
streets of the UK. This is taking | 4:14:59 | 4:15:05 | |
place as anti-Semitic offences in
this country reach record levels, as | 4:15:05 | 4:15:11 | |
shown in the recent community
Security trust report. Their run | 4:15:11 | 4:15:15 | |
many other disturbing recent
examples and incitement to hatred, | 4:15:15 | 4:15:19 | |
and I referred to the important
point raised by the honourable | 4:15:19 | 4:15:22 | |
member just a moment ago. For
example, a volunteer running a | 4:15:22 | 4:15:28 | |
network helping the survivors of the
Grenfell Tower fire tragedy has | 4:15:28 | 4:15:32 | |
claimed the 71 people who perished
were burnt in a Jewish sacrifice. | 4:15:32 | 4:15:39 | |
That is horrendous, horrendous
incitement to hatred. And that | 4:15:39 | 4:15:49 | |
march, some marchers held flags with
small stickers attached to them | 4:15:49 | 4:15:53 | |
stating, I support the political
wing of Hezbollah. This was designed | 4:15:53 | 4:15:59 | |
to give the marchers protection
against any legal challenge, | 4:15:59 | 4:16:03 | |
pretending that the political wing
of Hezbollah is somehow a separate | 4:16:03 | 4:16:08 | |
entity. This is a farce. The flags
indicate military might. They incite | 4:16:08 | 4:16:18 | |
hatred on our streets and division
in our communities. I recently went | 4:16:18 | 4:16:22 | |
to see the Metropolitan Police, to
express great concern about the | 4:16:22 | 4:16:26 | |
expressions of hatred on our
streets, specifically in relation to | 4:16:26 | 4:16:31 | |
that march, but also in relation to
other recent events. I asked the | 4:16:31 | 4:16:35 | |
police why they were not taking any
action against this incitement to | 4:16:35 | 4:16:40 | |
hatred. It was clear in the
discussions that then institute that | 4:16:40 | 4:16:44 | |
a key factor in the police's failure
to act was fat Hezbollah's political | 4:16:44 | 4:16:49 | |
wing is not illegal and neither is
displaying the flag. I give way. | 4:16:49 | 4:16:55 | |
I also have met with the Mike Potter
police -- Metropolitan Police and | 4:16:55 | 4:17:01 | |
they say they have had a Queens
Counsel opinion which states they | 4:17:01 | 4:17:04 | |
are not able to take any action for
the very reasons she outlines. | 4:17:04 | 4:17:08 | |
However, she did not feel it was
appropriate for me to read that | 4:17:08 | 4:17:12 | |
opinion, but a legal opinion is
simply just that, an opinion. | 4:17:12 | 4:17:18 | |
The honourable member makes a very
important point, which I think | 4:17:18 | 4:17:22 | |
should be pursued further. My
discussions with the Metropolitan | 4:17:22 | 4:17:25 | |
Police made it clear that their
decisions on how to deal with | 4:17:25 | 4:17:29 | |
individual incidents had to deal
with the legal situation at the | 4:17:29 | 4:17:33 | |
time, the need to have freedom of
expression and the police's | 4:17:33 | 4:17:41 | |
interpretation of how those
interact. Opinions are important but | 4:17:41 | 4:17:44 | |
so is incitement on our streets. It
is time for change. The fallacy that | 4:17:44 | 4:17:50 | |
Hezbollah has two separate sections
should be exposed. Under UK law, | 4:17:50 | 4:17:55 | |
only the so-called military wing of
Hezbollah is listed as a proscribed | 4:17:55 | 4:17:59 | |
terrorist organisation. The evidence
is absolutely clear. The evidence | 4:17:59 | 4:18:05 | |
abroad and the evidence here in the
UK on our streets. Hezbollah is a | 4:18:05 | 4:18:12 | |
single terrorist, anti-Semitic
entity. It is guilty of mass murder | 4:18:12 | 4:18:14 | |
abroad, and terrorism and discord
across the Middle East and now | 4:18:14 | 4:18:21 | |
imports of anti-Semitism and
anti-western hatred onto the streets | 4:18:21 | 4:18:25 | |
of London, sowing discord and
division amongst our communities. I | 4:18:25 | 4:18:30 | |
called the Hezbollah to be banned in
its entirety. I hope the Labour | 4:18:30 | 4:18:33 | |
front bench is listening and
listening hard to who the | 4:18:33 | 4:18:37 | |
contributions coming from this side
of the House first it is the | 4:18:37 | 4:18:40 | |
Government who are responsible for
what happens and I asked the | 4:18:40 | 4:18:42 | |
Minister take action.
Thank you. I apologise for ducking | 4:18:42 | 4:18:51 | |
out on my right honourable friend,
because I wanted to Slyney Holocaust | 4:18:51 | 4:18:54 | |
Memorial Day book and I recommend a
team members take the opportunity | 4:18:54 | 4:19:00 | |
before it closes in the next
half-hour. -- to sign the Holocaust | 4:19:00 | 4:19:04 | |
Menem | 4:19:04 | 4:19:05 | |
Hezbollah claims to be the party of
God, but in fact it is simply a | 4:19:08 | 4:19:13 | |
genocidal terrorist group based in
Lebanon which seeks the destruction | 4:19:13 | 4:19:17 | |
of Israel and extermination of all
Jews worldwide. The organisation is | 4:19:17 | 4:19:21 | |
well-known and I little friend
reminded us of the terror attack | 4:19:21 | 4:19:25 | |
that took place, killing Jews in the
1994 bombing of a Jewish community | 4:19:25 | 4:19:30 | |
centre in Buenos Aires, killing 85
people. The young rebel member for | 4:19:30 | 4:19:35 | |
Dudley North reminded us of the
leader of the Labour Party's, and | 4:19:35 | 4:19:39 | |
when he described infamously that
Hezbollah were his friends. Well, | 4:19:39 | 4:19:42 | |
they are no friends of mine.
One important aspect I would like to | 4:19:42 | 4:19:47 | |
remind the House is Hezbollah is
actually a creation of Iran on one | 4:19:47 | 4:19:52 | |
of their most important and powerful
international terrorist proxies, | 4:19:52 | 4:19:57 | |
giving Iran extensive access to the
Arab world. They have provided | 4:19:57 | 4:20:04 | |
millions of pounds for weapons,
technology and salary for tens of | 4:20:04 | 4:20:07 | |
thousands of fighters. In June | 4:20:07 | 4:20:11 | |
Hezbollah General Secretary
confirmed that Hezbollah is open | 4:20:11 | 4:20:14 | |
about the fact that its budget,
income, expenses, everything eats | 4:20:14 | 4:20:18 | |
and drinks, its weapons and rockets
come from the Islamic Republic of | 4:20:18 | 4:20:22 | |
Iran. Before leaving office in 2016,
former UN General Secretary Ban | 4:20:22 | 4:20:29 | |
Ki-Moon reportedly said he had
concerns about the remarks, stating | 4:20:29 | 4:20:36 | |
the supply of weapons from Iran to
Hezbollah breached protocol. | 4:20:36 | 4:20:46 | |
In preparation for the next
attempted conflict with Israel. He | 4:20:50 | 4:20:55 | |
has repeatedly threatened Israel
with war, saying the bullets are | 4:20:55 | 4:21:00 | |
ready to strike anywhere in Rozelle
without limits. Their rocket | 4:21:00 | 4:21:04 | |
factories in Lebanon under Hezbollah
control. The terror group now has up | 4:21:04 | 4:21:13 | |
to 150,000 rockets, again the member
from Dudley North reminded us, | 4:21:13 | 4:21:19 | |
capable of striking the whole of
Israel. Last week, Madam Deputy | 4:21:19 | 4:21:22 | |
Speaker, I presented at petition to
the House of Commons on behalf of | 4:21:22 | 4:21:27 | |
the people in my constituency,
calling on the Government to | 4:21:27 | 4:21:31 | |
prescribe the political as well as
the military arm of the Hezbollah | 4:21:31 | 4:21:34 | |
organisation under the terrorism
2000 act. Currently the Government | 4:21:34 | 4:21:38 | |
distinguishes between Hezbollah's
so-called political and military | 4:21:38 | 4:21:42 | |
wings, even though, as has been
said, the group itself does not. | 4:21:42 | 4:21:48 | |
I attended the Al Quds Day march on
many occasions and most recently I | 4:21:48 | 4:21:52 | |
attended last year, with former MP
Michael McCann, who spoke at the | 4:21:52 | 4:21:57 | |
event. We not only spoke but we also
witnessed the yellow flags of | 4:21:57 | 4:22:01 | |
Hezbollah featuring a large green
assault wife all being waved with | 4:22:01 | 4:22:06 | |
impunity on our streets and despite
the countless representations that | 4:22:06 | 4:22:09 | |
have been made by the honourable
member for Liverpool Riverside... | 4:22:09 | 4:22:16 | |
The Metropolitan Police and
ministers failed to take any action | 4:22:16 | 4:22:18 | |
upon this. The Islamic human rights
commission, who organised the march, | 4:22:18 | 4:22:24 | |
have provided guidance on its
website for participants beforehand, | 4:22:24 | 4:22:27 | |
advising that while flags of
military organisations could not be | 4:22:27 | 4:22:33 | |
waived, demonstrators could bring a
Hezbollah flag to show support for | 4:22:33 | 4:22:36 | |
the political wing of Hezbollah. It
takes credit for them to put that on | 4:22:36 | 4:22:42 | |
their website because I called the
police to ban the march two years | 4:22:42 | 4:22:45 | |
ago. I received not only abuse but
correspondence from the Islamic | 4:22:45 | 4:22:51 | |
so-called human rights group, who
told me that they'd never had any | 4:22:51 | 4:22:55 | |
illegal flags. They were of course
referring to Daesh. They have | 4:22:55 | 4:23:04 | |
advised people to put a post-it note
on their flag to say they are | 4:23:04 | 4:23:07 | |
supporting the political and not
military wing. The Home Secretary | 4:23:07 | 4:23:11 | |
explained recently for an offence to
be committed of displaying a flag, | 4:23:11 | 4:23:15 | |
the content manner in which it is
displayed must demonstrate that is | 4:23:15 | 4:23:19 | |
specifically in support of the
prescribed military wing of the | 4:23:19 | 4:23:23 | |
group. Taking this into account,
flags flown at the March beach at | 4:23:23 | 4:23:26 | |
their disclaimers as I've already
said, that they don't support the | 4:23:26 | 4:23:29 | |
military wing but that political
wing, even though we have been | 4:23:29 | 4:23:34 | |
reminded Hamas itself as it does not
recognise any difference between its | 4:23:34 | 4:23:37 | |
organisation.
I thank for my honourable friend for | 4:23:37 | 4:23:45 | |
giving way. I think Hezbollah it is
appalling and I would very much like | 4:23:45 | 4:23:48 | |
to see it banned. I have one
argument that might say it shouldn't | 4:23:48 | 4:23:54 | |
be, and that might be that our
security services, and we will never | 4:23:54 | 4:24:00 | |
know this, I advising the Minister
it is better to keep them where we | 4:24:00 | 4:24:06 | |
can see them rather than send them
underground. That might be the only | 4:24:06 | 4:24:12 | |
other went against it. I thank you
for that intervention. I'm not in | 4:24:12 | 4:24:15 | |
favour of banning things, I have to
say. But the hurt, resentment, | 4:24:15 | 4:24:22 | |
agitation and general disruption
that this annual march causes, not | 4:24:22 | 4:24:26 | |
only the Metropolitan Police but the
people of London, in itself should | 4:24:26 | 4:24:30 | |
mean that the march should be
banned. This year I called upon the | 4:24:30 | 4:24:36 | |
Metropolitan Police again not to let
the march go ahead. What was | 4:24:36 | 4:24:39 | |
infuriating is that days after the
Grenfell Tower fire, when the police | 4:24:39 | 4:24:44 | |
were massively stretched with such a
tragedy, they insisted it -- on | 4:24:44 | 4:24:50 | |
going ahead even though the police
did not have the resources to police | 4:24:50 | 4:24:53 | |
the march and I think that's
reprehensible. This year the march | 4:24:53 | 4:24:56 | |
was led by the director of the | 4:24:56 | 4:25:00 | |
-- of the group which the honourable
member for Richmond has already | 4:25:03 | 4:25:06 | |
mentioned, where he blames the
Grenfell fire tragedy on Zionist | 4:25:06 | 4:25:13 | |
supporters of the Tory party and
accused the Israeli defence Force of | 4:25:13 | 4:25:18 | |
being a terrorist organisation which
murdered Palestinian Jews and | 4:25:18 | 4:25:21 | |
soldiers. They waved slogans
including one stating, we are all | 4:25:21 | 4:25:28 | |
Hezbollah. Shockingly but perhaps
unsurprisingly, the Leader of the | 4:25:28 | 4:25:31 | |
Opposition has spoken at this annual
event in the past. I would take this | 4:25:31 | 4:25:34 | |
opportunity to call upon him not to
do so again in the future. | 4:25:34 | 4:25:40 | |
Seeing as Hezbollah officials have
repeatedly said Hezbollah is a | 4:25:40 | 4:25:44 | |
single entity, proudly stating their
resistance is their priority and | 4:25:44 | 4:25:47 | |
even publicly mocking the UK and
other European countries for | 4:25:47 | 4:25:51 | |
distinguishing between the two
wings. Before the honourable | 4:25:51 | 4:25:56 | |
gentleman moves on, I think he is
making a powerful speech which I | 4:25:56 | 4:26:00 | |
agree with. Just to say, the
American Lung than Sadiq Khan has, | 4:26:00 | 4:26:06 | |
in response to the Al Quds Day
march. -- the Mayor of London, he | 4:26:06 | 4:26:11 | |
has asked for Hezbollah to be
proscribed. That's a good point and | 4:26:11 | 4:26:19 | |
I want to respond. Earlier I
intervened on her and I'm grateful | 4:26:19 | 4:26:23 | |
she took my intervention, and she's
absolutely right. It is not just the | 4:26:23 | 4:26:27 | |
Labour front bench but also the
Government front bench. I certainly | 4:26:27 | 4:26:30 | |
hope they hear what I am saying
today, during this speech. It is not | 4:26:30 | 4:26:38 | |
just one party or another. And I
certainly don't seek to make this a | 4:26:38 | 4:26:41 | |
party political issue, but I have to
say, when I do see the Shadow Home | 4:26:41 | 4:26:46 | |
Secretary rolling her eyes at some
of the comments the Labour | 4:26:46 | 4:26:50 | |
backbenchers have been saying it
makes me think her heart is not | 4:26:50 | 4:26:53 | |
really in this issue are not
concerned as many of us decide. But | 4:26:53 | 4:26:59 | |
I go on. The Home Office guidance to
the legislation says under the | 4:26:59 | 4:27:03 | |
Terrorism Act 2000, the Home
Secretary may prescribe an | 4:27:03 | 4:27:06 | |
organisation and she believes it is
confirmed in terrorism and is | 4:27:06 | 4:27:10 | |
proportionate to do so. For the
purposes of the act, this means that | 4:27:10 | 4:27:15 | |
the organisation commits or
participates in acts of terrorism, | 4:27:15 | 4:27:18 | |
prepares for terrorism, promotes or
encourages terrorism, including the | 4:27:18 | 4:27:23 | |
unlawful glorification of terrorism
or is otherwise concerned with | 4:27:23 | 4:27:25 | |
terrorism. It is worth restating
senior Hezbollah officials have | 4:27:25 | 4:27:31 | |
openly and repeatedly stated no
substantive separation exist the | 4:27:31 | 4:27:37 | |
this social political and military
wings. I believe Hezbollah meets the | 4:27:37 | 4:27:42 | |
criteria for prescription under the
Terrorism Act and is not just to the | 4:27:42 | 4:27:47 | |
Jewish community who are distressed
by their presence in the UK. It is | 4:27:47 | 4:27:50 | |
those of us who deplore terrorism
and hate all kinds of bigotry, and | 4:27:50 | 4:27:54 | |
those of us who want this country to
be a welcoming and safe place for | 4:27:54 | 4:27:59 | |
many of our diverse communities. A
lot of members are not able to be | 4:27:59 | 4:28:03 | |
here today because they have
returned to their constituencies, no | 4:28:03 | 4:28:05 | |
doubt they will be attending the
Holocaust Memorial commemorations | 4:28:05 | 4:28:10 | |
this weekend. But we must not
underestimate the strength of | 4:28:10 | 4:28:13 | |
feeling among the British public in
favour of rooting anti-Semitism and | 4:28:13 | 4:28:17 | |
hatred wherever it occurs. | 4:28:17 | 4:28:22 | |
Anti-Semitism is rising across
Europe and we are commemorating | 4:28:22 | 4:28:26 | |
Holocaust wheel day on Saturday and
we must say, enough is enough -- | 4:28:26 | 4:28:32 | |
Holocaust Remembrance Day. We will
finally put aside the mistaken | 4:28:32 | 4:28:39 | |
belief that there is a political
wing of Hezbollah and its invaders | 4:28:39 | 4:28:42 | |
not exist. My constituents do not
think we should wait any longer | 4:28:42 | 4:28:47 | |
before admitting this -- it simply
does not exist. Thank you very much | 4:28:47 | 4:28:53 | |
for them I want to thank the member
for Enfield North for securing this | 4:28:53 | 4:28:59 | |
very important debate. It has indeed
been an excellent debate for the I | 4:28:59 | 4:29:06 | |
feel it is very important that the
Home Secretary takes a clear look at | 4:29:06 | 4:29:10 | |
Hezbollah and their activities and
the British and is they take. | 4:29:10 | 4:29:13 | |
Hezbollah are involved -- and the
positions they take. Hezbollah have | 4:29:13 | 4:29:21 | |
made clear they want to wipe Israel
off the face of the earth, but the | 4:29:21 | 4:29:24 | |
main concern I have is the
anti-Semitic language. I want to | 4:29:24 | 4:29:28 | |
take a moment to read at some of the
comments made by leaders of | 4:29:28 | 4:29:32 | |
Hezbollah differently emphasise and
understand the shocking nature of | 4:29:32 | 4:29:35 | |
these comments. Hezbollah's leader
is quoted as saying, and I quote | 4:29:35 | 4:29:43 | |
with deep discomfort, the Jews are a
cancer that are liable to spread at | 4:29:43 | 4:29:51 | |
any moment, and he also said if they
gather in Israel it will save us the | 4:29:51 | 4:29:56 | |
trouble of going after them
worldwide. It is also his deputy. He | 4:29:56 | 4:30:03 | |
is quoted as saying, the history of
Jews that regardless of the Zionist | 4:30:03 | 4:30:09 | |
proposal they are evil in their
ideas. I'm sure that members from | 4:30:09 | 4:30:15 | |
across this house as we have heard
will agree that these comments are | 4:30:15 | 4:30:20 | |
utterly deplorable and should be
challenged at every opportunity. | 4:30:20 | 4:30:24 | |
This language should not be allowed
to continue as it feeds into their | 4:30:24 | 4:30:28 | |
terrorist ideology which calls for
the destruction of Israel but also | 4:30:28 | 4:30:33 | |
the wider Jewish people. This is
something we have heard in the past | 4:30:33 | 4:30:37 | |
and we stood against it then and we
should stand up against it now. This | 4:30:37 | 4:30:43 | |
language being used in our society
should not be tolerated whether it | 4:30:43 | 4:30:46 | |
is here or elsewhere in the world.
There is absolutely no place for it. | 4:30:46 | 4:30:52 | |
What is especially pertinent when
recommitting to standing up to this | 4:30:52 | 4:30:56 | |
hate filled language is that as we
speak many are gathering just across | 4:30:56 | 4:31:01 | |
Parliament Square to remember the
Holocaust at the Holocaust Memorial | 4:31:01 | 4:31:05 | |
Day service at the QE2 centre. I was
torn today, I wanted to take part in | 4:31:05 | 4:31:11 | |
both but I chose to come here to
this house. To make this speech. | 4:31:11 | 4:31:17 | |
Only a week ago in this chamber
colleagues stood here movingly and | 4:31:17 | 4:31:19 | |
marked this auspicious day. The
theme of this year's Holocaust | 4:31:19 | 4:31:25 | |
Memorial Day is the power of words
with an aim to explore how language | 4:31:25 | 4:31:29 | |
was used in the past and is still
used in the present. It reminds us | 4:31:29 | 4:31:35 | |
to never be complacent. Right now an
organisation is lawfully allowed to | 4:31:35 | 4:31:41 | |
be supported in this country who
calls for the annihilation of one of | 4:31:41 | 4:31:46 | |
our allies and a whole ethnic
population and last year saw their | 4:31:46 | 4:31:51 | |
flags flown on the streets of our
capital. Hatred should not go | 4:31:51 | 4:31:56 | |
unchallenged where ever it may raise
its ugly head. The British | 4:31:56 | 4:32:01 | |
government must stand strong with
resolve to say enough is enough and | 4:32:01 | 4:32:04 | |
we will not stand for their hatred
and terrorist activities. We can all | 4:32:04 | 4:32:10 | |
agree that Hezbollah are a dangerous
organisation who commit terrorist | 4:32:10 | 4:32:13 | |
crimes across the world in the name
of their warped view of Islam and | 4:32:13 | 4:32:20 | |
repeatedly vocalise hate filled
language towards a group which they | 4:32:20 | 4:32:23 | |
wish to exterminate. There is no
room for their deep-seated hatred. | 4:32:23 | 4:32:29 | |
None at all. In response to this
debate I hope the Home Secretary, | 4:32:29 | 4:32:33 | |
although not present, will listen in
full to the concerns raised from | 4:32:33 | 4:32:39 | |
across this house today. Thank you.
Jim Shannon. It is a prejudice big | 4:32:39 | 4:32:47 | |
in this house but a particular
pleasure to speak on this issue -- | 4:32:47 | 4:32:54 | |
it is a pleasure to speak in this
house. Following all the other | 4:32:54 | 4:32:59 | |
contributions by members. If you
don't mind the doing so, the lady | 4:32:59 | 4:33:07 | |
from Enfield North, thanks setting
the scene for everyone. Whenever I | 4:33:07 | 4:33:13 | |
was asked would I accompany her to
the backbench committee to request | 4:33:13 | 4:33:19 | |
this debate I was happy to do so
because this is something I feel in | 4:33:19 | 4:33:22 | |
my heart that I want to be part of,
this debate. As someone who has | 4:33:22 | 4:33:29 | |
lived through a terrorist conflict
and bear the emotional and physical | 4:33:29 | 4:33:33 | |
scars which others have, this topic
is of great interest. The first | 4:33:33 | 4:33:41 | |
question we should ask ourselves,
what is the first duty of | 4:33:41 | 4:33:48 | |
government, and that has been
outlined by every member, to protect | 4:33:48 | 4:33:52 | |
the public, and are we protecting
the public, can we do better? Yes, | 4:33:52 | 4:33:55 | |
we can. The requirement for
protection cannot be guaranteed but | 4:33:55 | 4:34:02 | |
there will also always be those who
are determined to break through any | 4:34:02 | 4:34:06 | |
protective measures a government has
put in place by the government has | 4:34:06 | 4:34:10 | |
got to do what it can to make sure
people can go about the business of | 4:34:10 | 4:34:15 | |
their lives without facing attack.
This debate is taking place today | 4:34:15 | 4:34:22 | |
because it marks a failure to
provide the protection. The 4th of | 4:34:22 | 4:34:28 | |
June, 2017, the day after the London
Bridge terror attack, 48 people and | 4:34:28 | 4:34:31 | |
48 people were injured. The Prime
Minister said, we have made | 4:34:31 | 4:34:39 | |
significant progress, but there is
to be frank too much tolerance of | 4:34:39 | 4:34:43 | |
extremism in our country, so be need
to become far more of us to. | 4:34:43 | 4:34:49 | |
Stamping it out across the public
sector and society for the that will | 4:34:49 | 4:34:54 | |
take some difficult, stations, but
the whole of the country needs to | 4:34:54 | 4:34:57 | |
come together to take on this
extremism, that was the Prime | 4:34:57 | 4:35:02 | |
Minister in her statement at that
time -- difficult conversations. | 4:35:02 | 4:35:09 | |
There was a first hand account of
what this person had witnessed | 4:35:11 | 4:35:20 | |
regarding Hezbollah. He said some
people were walking the streets of | 4:35:20 | 4:35:26 | |
the city waving the flag of a
genocidal terrorist group by | 4:35:26 | 4:35:32 | |
simultaneously mocking the British
laws that allow them to do so and | 4:35:32 | 4:35:34 | |
how frustrating that was, they said.
That is no greater illustration of | 4:35:34 | 4:35:39 | |
the primaries are's view that we are
too tolerant of extremists like this | 4:35:39 | 4:35:43 | |
and that is why this debate is so
important -- Prime Minister's view. | 4:35:43 | 4:35:50 | |
2017 was a year marked with
terrorist attacks in London and | 4:35:50 | 4:35:54 | |
Manchester and our government
allowed this to take place, but I | 4:35:54 | 4:35:57 | |
questioned why. The Home Secretary
said it would come back to debate | 4:35:57 | 4:36:03 | |
the issue with them, and I
understand there has been a chasm of | 4:36:03 | 4:36:08 | |
silence since then and that is
concerning. As with many issues, | 4:36:08 | 4:36:15 | |
there may be a belief that if we let
matters at, sometimes people don't | 4:36:15 | 4:36:21 | |
demand for action to be taken, but
this is not one of those times and | 4:36:21 | 4:36:25 | |
we need action, but I thank the lady
from Enfield North and other | 4:36:25 | 4:36:30 | |
colleagues who have backed the call
for this debate. We have had a | 4:36:30 | 4:36:35 | |
discussion today and hopefully
action, and we do look to the | 4:36:35 | 4:36:40 | |
minister, and the call for action
which is coming from every member. | 4:36:40 | 4:36:44 | |
Let me make something quite clear,
this is not a campaign to satisfy a | 4:36:44 | 4:36:47 | |
handful of MPs, it goes wider than
that. More than 10,000 people have | 4:36:47 | 4:36:56 | |
written to their MPs to register
their concerns about the | 4:36:56 | 4:37:00 | |
government's delusion that Hezbollah
is two separate organisations and to | 4:37:00 | 4:37:05 | |
highlight their duty which is to
protect the public. Hezbollah is a | 4:37:05 | 4:37:12 | |
single organisation with a single
command structure, which has been | 4:37:12 | 4:37:15 | |
proven beyond out. The government's
own assessment of their capability | 4:37:15 | 4:37:20 | |
not only renders the government's
untenable and shows the evidence, | 4:37:20 | 4:37:27 | |
but I'm concerned that we are not
being given the full story about the | 4:37:27 | 4:37:30 | |
need that is there. The gentleman
referred there might be some | 4:37:30 | 4:37:36 | |
evidential base out there and we
want to see that, but the government | 4:37:36 | 4:37:39 | |
is also aware of the sleepers that
there are four Hezbollah and by | 4:37:39 | 4:37:44 | |
watching them, as well. Those who
think they are not being seen, let | 4:37:44 | 4:37:49 | |
me be clear, they are being seen and
we know who they are. A few days ago | 4:37:49 | 4:37:55 | |
the minister stated the military and
political activities of Hezbollah | 4:37:55 | 4:38:00 | |
are distinct. No links exist between
the leaders. UK believes the | 4:38:00 | 4:38:10 | |
external organisation of 2001, and
in 2008 the prescription was | 4:38:10 | 4:38:15 | |
extended to the military apparatus
of Hezbollah, but I think we are | 4:38:15 | 4:38:21 | |
dragging our feet with the action
needs to be taken and we are putting | 4:38:21 | 4:38:24 | |
the British people in grave danger,
but that is Aris 's ability -- that | 4:38:24 | 4:38:29 | |
is our responsibility of the. Please
do not think that I support | 4:38:29 | 4:38:36 | |
Hezbollah, but there may be some
reason that we can't know about, and | 4:38:36 | 4:38:41 | |
having been intelligence, that they
are not actually banning the | 4:38:41 | 4:38:46 | |
political wing of Root in this
country, it might be something very | 4:38:46 | 4:38:53 | |
important -- the political wing of
Hezbollah in this country. Otherwise | 4:38:53 | 4:38:56 | |
it might be much much of God. I
don't know. -- it might be much more | 4:38:56 | 4:39:01 | |
difficult. Thank you for your
intervention. That's be clear, we | 4:39:01 | 4:39:07 | |
want the prescription of Hezbollah,
that is the thrust of the debate, | 4:39:07 | 4:39:11 | |
that is what we are about. There is
no two wings of Hezbollah and that | 4:39:11 | 4:39:16 | |
is very clear. Just to clarify. Most
members of the Armed Forces can't | 4:39:16 | 4:39:23 | |
comment on these issues but very
senior members of our Armed Forces | 4:39:23 | 4:39:29 | |
when they are no longer active
serving members, they have made it | 4:39:29 | 4:39:33 | |
very clear that they think this is a
false division and it should be | 4:39:33 | 4:39:39 | |
prescribed in its entirety and I
agree with them, although I | 4:39:39 | 4:39:45 | |
understand the honourable gentleman
is not saying he supports Hezbollah. | 4:39:45 | 4:39:50 | |
I'm going to come onto one example
of a late soldier who has clearly | 4:39:50 | 4:39:56 | |
got knowledge and his position will
become clear, and maybe for everyone | 4:39:56 | 4:40:02 | |
in the chamber, we can see why we
need it and why we want it. | 4:40:02 | 4:40:07 | |
Hezbollah leaders have said there is
no separation between their | 4:40:07 | 4:40:14 | |
components, and it meets the
criteria for description under the | 4:40:14 | 4:40:16 | |
terrorism act. Their leaders have
supported jihad and martyrdom, and | 4:40:16 | 4:40:22 | |
they have been responsible for
attacks on Jewish people across the | 4:40:22 | 4:40:25 | |
globe, everyone has said it, but
last year the member for Newark | 4:40:25 | 4:40:31 | |
sought members walking down Oxford
Street with Hezbollah flags -- saw. | 4:40:31 | 4:40:40 | |
If that is not provocative and
illegal, I would like to know what | 4:40:40 | 4:40:44 | |
is. There was inflammatory rhetoric.
The purpose of the demonstration was | 4:40:44 | 4:40:51 | |
to agitate for violent resistance
and the destruction of the state of | 4:40:51 | 4:40:58 | |
Israel and the context is
militaristic and not political, and | 4:40:58 | 4:41:06 | |
this is a fabricated division that
allows public support for a | 4:41:06 | 4:41:09 | |
terrorist organisation and the
presence of anti-Semitism to | 4:41:09 | 4:41:14 | |
flourish freely on our streets. In
this house, members have made clear | 4:41:14 | 4:41:18 | |
that we have taken a stance against
anti-Semitism and the government has | 4:41:18 | 4:41:23 | |
taken a stance against anti-Semitism
and there are others who need to be | 4:41:23 | 4:41:27 | |
stronger when it comes to taking
their stance and we would encourage | 4:41:27 | 4:41:30 | |
them to do so, and the actions are
Dutchman to the social Tahitian and | 4:41:30 | 4:41:37 | |
they damage societies with agents
and that is why Hezbollah must be | 4:41:37 | 4:41:44 | |
banned -- the actions are damaging
to social cohesion. Someone who's | 4:41:44 | 4:41:53 | |
credentials are impeccable, the
Foreign Office deludes itself by | 4:41:53 | 4:42:02 | |
appeasing Hezbollah and it will do
is killing elsewhere, a status gives | 4:42:02 | 4:42:07 | |
legitimacy to Hezbollah, Britain and
the rest of the EU hope to mollify | 4:42:07 | 4:42:14 | |
Iran, the biggest state supporter of
terrorism, and they know designating | 4:42:14 | 4:42:18 | |
Hezbollah would anger the
Ayatollahs. He is right to refer to | 4:42:18 | 4:42:26 | |
Richard camp and I referred to the
Lord of the General staff who made | 4:42:26 | 4:42:31 | |
exactly the same point. I'm not
calling into question the member for | 4:42:31 | 4:42:36 | |
Beckenham's motives or questioning
why he said what he said, but the | 4:42:36 | 4:42:43 | |
fact that Richard camp and the Lord
both made the opposite point, I | 4:42:43 | 4:42:50 | |
think they would be aware if such
intelligence existed. Absolutely. | 4:42:50 | 4:42:55 | |
Thank you for that intervention. The
extra evidential base which we need | 4:42:55 | 4:43:01 | |
for this debate and which he has put
on record. | 4:43:01 | 4:43:09 | |
In a Foreign Office is creating
delusions. Col Richard Campbell was | 4:43:09 | 4:43:14 | |
my column in The Times demonstrates
Antigua explained during the | 4:43:14 | 4:43:23 | |
campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan,
his brother was involved in directed | 4:43:23 | 4:43:26 | |
bombings that killed well over 1000
British and US service men. Despite | 4:43:26 | 4:43:31 | |
this, his brother raise funds for
terrorism. They plant and maintain | 4:43:31 | 4:43:42 | |
cells in this country, planning and
lying in wait for orders to attack. | 4:43:42 | 4:43:50 | |
Can I commend our security forces
for their really good work that | 4:43:50 | 4:43:53 | |
everyone in this house endorses and
supports and the intelligence | 4:43:53 | 4:43:57 | |
services we have are the best in the
world and we are happy to have them. | 4:43:57 | 4:44:02 | |
When you hear those things, you have
already said it yourself, those who | 4:44:02 | 4:44:13 | |
seek to appease in the Foreign
Office, fearful of offending the | 4:44:13 | 4:44:23 | |
Ayatollahs which has been implicit
in the killing of British soldiers, | 4:44:23 | 4:44:27 | |
we have the responsibility to look
after and nurture and care for those | 4:44:27 | 4:44:31 | |
British soldiers. This cannot be
allowed to continue. It is about | 4:44:31 | 4:44:36 | |
time the government does the right
thing and bands his brother. What | 4:44:36 | 4:44:41 | |
will it achieve? Let me quote his
brother's Secretary General. The | 4:44:41 | 4:44:45 | |
sources of our funding would dry up
and the sources of moral, political | 4:44:45 | 4:44:54 | |
and material support would be
destroyed. If you want a good reason | 4:44:54 | 4:45:00 | |
for prescribing his brother, that
would be a good one. Does the | 4:45:00 | 4:45:04 | |
honourable member agreed this is the
consequence of the Iranian nuclear | 4:45:04 | 4:45:07 | |
deal that money is going from Iran
directly to his brother and other | 4:45:07 | 4:45:11 | |
terrorist proxies in the Middle
East? And that the honourable | 4:45:11 | 4:45:16 | |
gentleman and I agree. Can I commend
him for these contributions in this | 4:45:16 | 4:45:21 | |
house. He has been a style what
supporter and I know we have had | 4:45:21 | 4:45:25 | |
debate in the House and when we were
speaking about the Iran nuclear deal | 4:45:25 | 4:45:30 | |
he was an asset to the House, saying
the same thing. It was good to have | 4:45:30 | 4:45:36 | |
that consensus of opinion will stop
many others joined as well. The | 4:45:36 | 4:45:41 | |
reason why we need to do it is
because of that very reason. The | 4:45:41 | 4:45:49 | |
money will dry up and the funding
will dry up and we take away their | 4:45:49 | 4:45:53 | |
moral, political support and that
will all be destroyed. Will he agree | 4:45:53 | 4:46:00 | |
with me that extending prescription
in the way pretty much every member | 4:46:00 | 4:46:05 | |
has called for is really important
if we are to ensure Hizbollah cannot | 4:46:05 | 4:46:09 | |
use the banking system in this
country to further their evil ends? | 4:46:09 | 4:46:15 | |
I thank the honourable lady for
that. You starve them of their | 4:46:15 | 4:46:19 | |
monies and their funds and you take
away the blood that they exist on. | 4:46:19 | 4:46:26 | |
It is important we do that and by
prescribing his brother and by | 4:46:26 | 4:46:30 | |
removing all the resources and the
bones of the system they have, I | 4:46:30 | 4:46:34 | |
think that is one way of doing it. I
believe the British people, and I | 4:46:34 | 4:46:41 | |
would happily | 4:46:41 | 4:46:52 | |
accept proscription. Whilst we
require proscription completely, we | 4:46:53 | 4:47:02 | |
should never lose sight of the fact
it is a proxy for the Iranian | 4:47:02 | 4:47:06 | |
Islamic Revolutionary guard Corps
which is causing so much havoc and | 4:47:06 | 4:47:10 | |
distress throughout the Middle East
and beyond? I thank the honourable | 4:47:10 | 4:47:17 | |
gentleman and fully endorses
sentiments in relation to that. It | 4:47:17 | 4:47:20 | |
is clear to me and to us all in this
house that the Iranian National | 4:47:20 | 4:47:26 | |
Guard have such control that the
encourage his brother. Everywhere in | 4:47:26 | 4:47:35 | |
the world where there is contention,
murder, conflict, that is the | 4:47:35 | 4:47:41 | |
frustration we have. Putting the
public at risk is at the very best | 4:47:41 | 4:47:56 | |
complacent and at the worst
disastrous for public security. In | 4:47:56 | 4:48:00 | |
memory of the British victims of his
brother, this terror group, this | 4:48:00 | 4:48:05 | |
some of the Earth I believe should
be banned from today and further | 4:48:05 | 4:48:10 | |
afield. Stuart MacDonald.
This debate has been a passion one | 4:48:10 | 4:48:19 | |
but also a thoughtful one and I
congratulate the honourable member | 4:48:19 | 4:48:22 | |
for Enfield North and her colleagues
for bringing it to the House. | 4:48:22 | 4:48:26 | |
Members have repeatedly made clear
that his brother in the broadest | 4:48:26 | 4:48:30 | |
sense has engaged in atrocious
terrorist activities. They have | 4:48:30 | 4:48:35 | |
highlighted the tags in the Middle
East, but beyond. In Buena Syriza in | 4:48:35 | 4:48:41 | |
1994 there was the bombing of the
Israeli Embassy and the destination | 4:48:41 | 4:48:46 | |
of explosives outside the
Argentinian Israeli Association. | 4:48:46 | 4:48:52 | |
Targets have included Thailand,
Nigeria, Cyprus and many other | 4:48:52 | 4:48:55 | |
countries. Others have highlighted
the knock-on consequences of | 4:48:55 | 4:49:07 | |
sticking with partial proscription.
Is there any possible counter | 4:49:07 | 4:49:13 | |
argument? In supporting what we
could call partial proscription, the | 4:49:13 | 4:49:19 | |
Home Office pointed to a legitimate
rule that his brother plays in | 4:49:19 | 4:49:27 | |
Lebanon when the security minister
pointed out that his brother forms | 4:49:27 | 4:49:31 | |
part of the government of Lebanon.
Much of the debate today has focused | 4:49:31 | 4:49:36 | |
on whether it is one organisation
and whether it is realistic to | 4:49:36 | 4:49:39 | |
divided into different parts like
some countries do for the purposes | 4:49:39 | 4:49:46 | |
of proscription. If the military
wing is reviewed as not separate, we | 4:49:46 | 4:49:53 | |
should review the situation. Members
have argued these are false and | 4:49:53 | 4:49:58 | |
unreal distinctions even in the
rhetoric of the his brother members | 4:49:58 | 4:50:03 | |
themselves. The next question is
does it matter there is a degree of | 4:50:03 | 4:50:11 | |
unity at the top if there are clear
and distinct branches that can be | 4:50:11 | 4:50:15 | |
separated? Different countries have
taken different approaches to that | 4:50:15 | 4:50:20 | |
question. For the Netherlands it did
matter and it was conclusive and in | 4:50:20 | 4:50:24 | |
the annual report in 2004 there
security services stated, the his | 4:50:24 | 4:50:31 | |
brother political and terrorist
wings are controlled by one | 4:50:31 | 4:50:34 | |
coordinating Council and there is a
link between these parts of the | 4:50:34 | 4:50:38 | |
organisation and that allows it to
change its policy and no longer | 4:50:38 | 4:50:43 | |
makes the distinction between
political and terrorist his brother | 4:50:43 | 4:50:46 | |
branches. But not all countries take
that approach and it is not the | 4:50:46 | 4:50:50 | |
approach taken in Australia. It
refers to an external security | 4:50:50 | 4:50:56 | |
organisation which is listed, but
not his brother as a whole. They | 4:50:56 | 4:51:05 | |
have been described as a political
organisation with deep roots in the | 4:51:05 | 4:51:11 | |
Lebanese society which maintain a
network that encompasses health and | 4:51:11 | 4:51:16 | |
education. But there is also a
branch responsible for the execution | 4:51:16 | 4:51:22 | |
of terrorist attacks against his
brother's enemies outside Lebanon. | 4:51:22 | 4:51:28 | |
Despite the fact that the Australian
government takes the view that it is | 4:51:28 | 4:51:32 | |
a branch. Some members have pointed
out it is relevant to note that | 4:51:32 | 4:51:41 | |
under the 2000 act, the Home Office
has powers, but not a duty to | 4:51:41 | 4:51:46 | |
describe the organisation. One
wonders whether there are other | 4:51:46 | 4:51:51 | |
considerations at play, including a
desire to keep certain diplomatic | 4:51:51 | 4:51:54 | |
channels open. The president of
Lebanon in the past has previously | 4:51:54 | 4:52:00 | |
asked the EU and member countries
not to have proscription of his | 4:52:00 | 4:52:06 | |
brother. Those countries that do
have proscription of the whole group | 4:52:06 | 4:52:17 | |
say it does have a diplomatic role,
it does not have to end there. One | 4:52:17 | 4:52:22 | |
problem I have raised before in
relation to debates on the | 4:52:22 | 4:52:27 | |
proscription of terrorist
organisations is a drop in the ocean | 4:52:27 | 4:52:37 | |
compared to what decision will be
made. In conclusion, once again I | 4:52:37 | 4:52:51 | |
congratulate honourable members for
bringing this debate and for posing | 4:52:51 | 4:52:55 | |
serious and difficult questions to
the government. I await the | 4:52:55 | 4:52:59 | |
minister's responds with interest
because it is fair to say so far | 4:52:59 | 4:53:02 | |
there has not been any coherent
counterargument. Thomas Simons. | 4:53:02 | 4:53:08 | |
Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I
am grateful to the backbench | 4:53:08 | 4:53:13 | |
business committee for agreeing to
the application led by my right arm | 4:53:13 | 4:53:17 | |
will bring, the member for Enfield
North, and for bringing forward | 4:53:17 | 4:53:22 | |
these important issues. Whilst
nobody in the House would deny the | 4:53:22 | 4:53:26 | |
right to peaceful protest, we should
of course debate in this house when | 4:53:26 | 4:53:30 | |
there is a fence and distress caused
by public displays and we should | 4:53:30 | 4:53:34 | |
also be debating these very
important issues of proscription. I | 4:53:34 | 4:53:38 | |
thank my honourable friend the
member is for Dudley North, | 4:53:38 | 4:53:43 | |
Liverpool Riverside and Washington
and Sunderland West for their | 4:53:43 | 4:53:46 | |
contributions to the debate today. I
want to deal with this issue of the | 4:53:46 | 4:53:52 | |
displaying of his brother flags
which in the short-term is what has | 4:53:52 | 4:53:55 | |
led to this debate coming forward.
But can I say at the outset that we | 4:53:55 | 4:54:01 | |
on these benches unequivocally
condemn support for violence and | 4:54:01 | 4:54:04 | |
acts of terrorism, the likes of
which have been described in the | 4:54:04 | 4:54:10 | |
chamber today. We are grateful to
the police and our security services | 4:54:10 | 4:54:14 | |
for the work that they do on a daily
basis in keeping us all safe. Many | 4:54:14 | 4:54:19 | |
members have spoken about the
current position regarding | 4:54:19 | 4:54:23 | |
proscription. It is correct that in
March 2001, the his brother external | 4:54:23 | 4:54:31 | |
security organisation, part of the
military wing, was prescribed. In | 4:54:31 | 4:54:37 | |
July 2008 that was extended to the
whole military wing including the | 4:54:37 | 4:54:42 | |
jihad Council. The then Home Office
minister, Tony McNulty, a former | 4:54:42 | 4:54:46 | |
member of this house said in this
house on the 2nd of July 2008, the | 4:54:46 | 4:54:52 | |
proscription of his brother's
military wing would not affect the | 4:54:52 | 4:54:56 | |
role it played in Lebanon but it
would send out a clear message that | 4:54:56 | 4:55:00 | |
we condemn his brother's violence
and support for terrorism. It is the | 4:55:00 | 4:55:05 | |
case today that his brother forms
part of the Parliament of Lebanon. | 4:55:05 | 4:55:11 | |
In December of last year security
minister said, quote, those | 4:55:11 | 4:55:15 | |
organisations including his brother
are not prescribed in their | 4:55:15 | 4:55:25 | |
entirety, but the proscription in
Lebanon only applies to the military | 4:55:25 | 4:55:28 | |
wing. It is for the government to
keep under review the organisations | 4:55:28 | 4:55:32 | |
for proscription. I would suggest in
difficult and volatile situations | 4:55:32 | 4:55:40 | |
there has to be a balance between
making absolutely clear our | 4:55:40 | 4:55:46 | |
abhorrence for using violence to
achieve political ends, but at the | 4:55:46 | 4:55:50 | |
same time seeking to facilitate and
encourage solutions to conflict | 4:55:50 | 4:55:55 | |
through participation in the
democratic process. It is for the | 4:55:55 | 4:55:59 | |
government on the information it has
before it, not all of which may be | 4:55:59 | 4:56:05 | |
in the public domain, to be vigilant
in keeping the lists of | 4:56:05 | 4:56:09 | |
organisations under review. The
statutory test is under the | 4:56:09 | 4:56:14 | |
terrorism act of 2000. As the
opposition we will hold the | 4:56:14 | 4:56:18 | |
government to account in its
application of the test as we did | 4:56:18 | 4:56:21 | |
before Christmas in relation to a
number of other organisations. I | 4:56:21 | 4:56:25 | |
would ask the Minister for his
assurance that the situation is | 4:56:25 | 4:56:31 | |
always kept under review. I want to
return to the current position with | 4:56:31 | 4:56:37 | |
the proscription situation as it is.
I want to make one remark as an | 4:56:37 | 4:56:41 | |
aside. I think it is important that
there is a document containing the | 4:56:41 | 4:56:48 | |
position of the Labour front bench
that got into the public domain | 4:56:48 | 4:56:52 | |
today. Whilst colleagues may or may
not disagree with that, there is an | 4:56:52 | 4:56:56 | |
issue in that the front of that
document contains the work e-mail | 4:56:56 | 4:57:00 | |
address of a member of my staff who,
before I came into the chamber, had | 4:57:00 | 4:57:05 | |
already received an e-mail which
made it clear that they thought he | 4:57:05 | 4:57:15 | |
was responsible for the position. I
want us in this has to take | 4:57:15 | 4:57:28 | |
responsibility for our positions, it
is not for the staff who do an | 4:57:28 | 4:57:33 | |
excellent job for us to do it. I was
interested in the remarks may be the | 4:57:33 | 4:57:38 | |
honourable member for Hendon that
for the displaying of the flag to be | 4:57:38 | 4:57:43 | |
an offence under section 13 of the
terrorism act, 2000, it is true it | 4:57:43 | 4:57:48 | |
has to be in support of the
prescribed elements of the group. | 4:57:48 | 4:57:55 | |
I haven't read the QC's advice that
was referred to but I would be | 4:57:55 | 4:57:59 | |
interested to have a dialogue with
the Metropolitan plays or other | 4:57:59 | 4:58:03 | |
police forces on this matter because
firstly you have the issue of law | 4:58:03 | 4:58:08 | |
enforcement agencies on the ground
that judge the context and | 4:58:08 | 4:58:13 | |
circumstances in which the flag is
flown but that is in relation to the | 4:58:13 | 4:58:16 | |
terrorism act of 2000 and there are
other wider criminal offences in | 4:58:16 | 4:58:22 | |
respect of public order, displays
that cause harassment and alarm and | 4:58:22 | 4:58:26 | |
distress and issues about
incitement, all of which can be | 4:58:26 | 4:58:28 | |
enforced. On the streets of our
country. I would be very happy to | 4:58:28 | 4:58:35 | |
give way. He is completely right to
say that the e-mail address of his | 4:58:35 | 4:58:41 | |
member of staff should not be
displayed on the internet. I imagine | 4:58:41 | 4:58:45 | |
he's referring to the brief. He is
completely right about that but I'm | 4:58:45 | 4:58:50 | |
also concerned about some of the
contents, given that it's a racist | 4:58:50 | 4:58:55 | |
document, why doesn't it mention the
anti-Semitism of Hezbollah and why | 4:58:55 | 4:59:01 | |
does it suggest that they could be a
partner for peace when it is clear | 4:59:01 | 4:59:04 | |
that they have no interest in the
peace process between Israel and the | 4:59:04 | 4:59:07 | |
Palestinians? Can I make two points,
firstly when briefs are prepared | 4:59:07 | 4:59:15 | |
they tend to focus... We condemn
anti-Semitism in all its forms, to | 4:59:15 | 4:59:24 | |
be clear, but with regard piece
going forward I would make the point | 4:59:24 | 4:59:30 | |
that we do have to be careful in
terms of coming off diplomatic | 4:59:30 | 4:59:33 | |
channels. Only a few months ago, I
read the Commons made by the former | 4:59:33 | 4:59:39 | |
prime ministers Tony Blair in
respect of Hamas and he was talking | 4:59:39 | 4:59:46 | |
about the boycott of Hamas after the
Palestinian elections of 2006 and | 4:59:46 | 4:59:49 | |
this is what Tony Blair said. " In
retrospect we should have right at | 4:59:49 | 4:59:55 | |
the beginning tried to bring Hamas
into a dialogue and shifted their | 4:59:55 | 4:59:58 | |
positions and I think that is what
we should have done in retrospect" | 4:59:58 | 5:00:03 | |
positions and I think that is what
we should have done in retrospect". | 5:00:03 | 5:00:06 | |
I don't underplay terrorist acts,
but in these very difficult | 5:00:06 | 5:00:11 | |
conflicts around the world, we are
just careful about our maintenance | 5:00:11 | 5:00:14 | |
of engagement. I will give way first
to the member for which could park. | 5:00:14 | 5:00:22 | |
-- Richmond Park. Can you think of
an example of any time where not | 5:00:22 | 5:00:29 | |
prescribing the whole of Hezbollah
has not facilitated a move towards | 5:00:29 | 5:00:33 | |
peace? It is a counterfactual
question as to what would have | 5:00:33 | 5:00:39 | |
happened if the organisation had not
been prescribed and I'm sure that | 5:00:39 | 5:00:44 | |
the gentleman would appreciate that
that is entirely hypothetical. I | 5:00:44 | 5:00:46 | |
will give way. Hezbollah is a
genocidal violent terrorist | 5:00:46 | 5:00:55 | |
organisation dedicated to the
destruction of the state of Israel | 5:00:55 | 5:00:57 | |
and I challenge the opposition front
bench to support the cause that have | 5:00:57 | 5:01:02 | |
come from all sides of the house to
prescribe it in its entirety. Nobody | 5:01:02 | 5:01:07 | |
supports these terrible violent
barbaric acts. We simply look at the | 5:01:07 | 5:01:15 | |
situation as it is an try to strike
a balance. I have set out the | 5:01:15 | 5:01:24 | |
position... I have already set out
the position that I would be happy | 5:01:24 | 5:01:28 | |
to speak to police forces around the
country about use of the powers they | 5:01:28 | 5:01:31 | |
have at the moment. We condemn the
violence absolutely and we continue | 5:01:31 | 5:01:37 | |
to support the prescription of the
military wing as has been the | 5:01:37 | 5:01:41 | |
position of government. Let me just
make this one point and then I will | 5:01:41 | 5:01:46 | |
give way. We believe engagement with
the government in parliament of | 5:01:46 | 5:01:51 | |
Lebanon is very important in terms
of the wider Middle East peace | 5:01:51 | 5:01:56 | |
process and I would so be say we
should be careful about damaging | 5:01:56 | 5:01:59 | |
that engagement but of course it is
a question of balance. It was of | 5:01:59 | 5:02:08 | |
course a Labour government in 2008
that drew the distinction between | 5:02:08 | 5:02:12 | |
the military wing and the political
wing of Hezbollah. Everybody who has | 5:02:12 | 5:02:17 | |
spoken in this debate regards that
as a nonsense and affection, what is | 5:02:17 | 5:02:21 | |
the position of the labour front
bench on that? -- nonsense. I would | 5:02:21 | 5:02:30 | |
simply observe that the activities
are distinct, the activities of | 5:02:30 | 5:02:34 | |
violence on the one hand which we
absolutely condemn but on the other | 5:02:34 | 5:02:38 | |
engagement with the democratic
process. I would simply say that we | 5:02:38 | 5:02:43 | |
on these benches have supported the
balance that the government is | 5:02:43 | 5:02:49 | |
striking, that isn't to say that I'm
not very sensitive to the views I've | 5:02:49 | 5:02:53 | |
heard around the chamber and I
respect the views from all around | 5:02:53 | 5:02:58 | |
the house but we do believe when
analysing these very important | 5:02:58 | 5:03:04 | |
matters of prescription that the
balance as it stands of prescribing | 5:03:04 | 5:03:07 | |
the military wing should not be
extended to the political wing for | 5:03:07 | 5:03:13 | |
the reasons we have set out.
Minister. Thank you. I but like to | 5:03:13 | 5:03:23 | |
congratulate members including the
member for Enfield North for | 5:03:23 | 5:03:25 | |
securing this debate today -- I
would. The government is proud to be | 5:03:25 | 5:03:31 | |
a friend of Israel and proud to
support working with Israel and no | 5:03:31 | 5:03:36 | |
one on this side of the house and
not many in this house supports the | 5:03:36 | 5:03:40 | |
use of terrorism Paris violence --
and no one in this house supports | 5:03:40 | 5:03:48 | |
the use of terrorism and violence
for the I have first-hand experience | 5:03:48 | 5:03:52 | |
of violence and intimidation and
terrorism and no one more than the | 5:03:52 | 5:03:57 | |
wants to see people that use
violence to progress their beliefs, | 5:03:57 | 5:04:02 | |
be stopped and prosecuted and put
away or giving out of this country | 5:04:02 | 5:04:10 | |
at the bare minimum. Maybe I should
start by reassuring members that as | 5:04:10 | 5:04:16 | |
the Minister of State for security
and along with the government we are | 5:04:16 | 5:04:21 | |
determined to do all we can to
minimise the threat from terrorism | 5:04:21 | 5:04:23 | |
to the UK, to our interests abroad
and our friends abroad, and to | 5:04:23 | 5:04:30 | |
disrupt those who engage in it.
Prescription is an important part of | 5:04:30 | 5:04:34 | |
the government's strategy but not
the only part, to disrupt the | 5:04:34 | 5:04:41 | |
activities of terrorist groups and
those who provide support to them. | 5:04:41 | 5:04:45 | |
Many members here have said today
already Hezbollah was established in | 5:04:45 | 5:04:49 | |
the Lebanese Civil War and in the
aftermath of the Israeli incursion | 5:04:49 | 5:04:54 | |
into Lebanon in 1982 and from the
outset resistance to Israel has been | 5:04:54 | 5:04:58 | |
an important part of their agenda,
but Hezbollah also represent Lebanon | 5:04:58 | 5:05:05 | |
Shia community and they have gained
significant support over time from | 5:05:05 | 5:05:08 | |
that community. Hezbollah provides
social and put in your functions in | 5:05:08 | 5:05:12 | |
Lebanon and is a major little group
in the largest military state in the | 5:05:12 | 5:05:20 | |
country and they clearly play an
important role in Lebanon. UK | 5:05:20 | 5:05:25 | |
Government has held the view that
elements of Hezbollah have been | 5:05:25 | 5:05:28 | |
involved in conducting and terrorism
and as a result have prescribed | 5:05:28 | 5:05:32 | |
there is external security
organisation in 2001 -- there is | 5:05:32 | 5:05:39 | |
external. We have heard comments
about the statements and beliefs and | 5:05:39 | 5:05:44 | |
we have heard how they are outrages
and disgusting and they should be | 5:05:44 | 5:05:50 | |
condemned at all opportunities. They
are anti-Semitic and they wish the | 5:05:50 | 5:05:56 | |
destruction of our friend and ally,
the state of Israel, none of which | 5:05:56 | 5:05:59 | |
we support. In 2008, in recognition
of more that kind of activity, | 5:05:59 | 5:06:06 | |
proscription was extended to include
the whole of their military | 5:06:06 | 5:06:11 | |
apparatus including the jihad
Council and all the units reporting | 5:06:11 | 5:06:13 | |
to it. Their military wing is also
designated in the UK under the | 5:06:13 | 5:06:18 | |
terrorist asset freezing act 2010.
Therefore, money or economic | 5:06:18 | 5:06:26 | |
resources held or controlled by
their military wing in the UK can be | 5:06:26 | 5:06:30 | |
and will be frozen. In July 2012 the
EU designated Hezbollah's military | 5:06:30 | 5:06:37 | |
wing as a terrorist organisation
under the EU asset freezing regime. | 5:06:37 | 5:06:43 | |
While the proscription of their
entirety is kept under review, our | 5:06:43 | 5:06:48 | |
current position maintains a
balance, and I've heard for many of | 5:06:48 | 5:06:51 | |
the members today about their view
that they are indivisible and that | 5:06:51 | 5:06:56 | |
the military and political wing of
Hezbollah cannot be divided and they | 5:06:56 | 5:07:00 | |
are joined at the hip, they are
centrally led. That is not the view | 5:07:00 | 5:07:05 | |
of every country, Australia, New
Zealand, and the EU take a | 5:07:05 | 5:07:11 | |
different... My Lords, I wish to
adjourn. The house will now adjourn | 5:07:11 | 5:07:23 | |
until 430. The contents have it. ...
To reassure some embers, because the | 5:07:23 | 5:07:41 | |
idea has been put forward that we
draw our military forces or the | 5:07:41 | 5:07:47 | |
police and Richard Kemp has often
been quoted, but we don't make | 5:07:47 | 5:07:49 | |
decisions based on ministers around
a cup of coffee, we make them on the | 5:07:49 | 5:07:54 | |
recommendations submitted to us by
our law enforcement agencies and | 5:07:54 | 5:07:59 | |
military services, here and
overseas, and make a judgment there. | 5:07:59 | 5:08:03 | |
I will make way. He makes the point
that it is not the view of every | 5:08:03 | 5:08:11 | |
country and every security service
that Hezbollah is indivisible but | 5:08:11 | 5:08:16 | |
isn't his difficulty that it is
Hezbollah's own view that it is | 5:08:16 | 5:08:21 | |
indivisible and that they itself
consider it self to be a single | 5:08:21 | 5:08:24 | |
organisation. You make a valid point
but it is also difficult which he | 5:08:24 | 5:08:33 | |
must recognise two separate
Hezbollah from the state of Lebanon. | 5:08:33 | 5:08:40 | |
Hezbollah is in the Parliament and
in the government and that | 5:08:40 | 5:08:43 | |
represents a different challenge
than we find with many other | 5:08:43 | 5:08:47 | |
terrorist groups. I will give way
for the. The chairman of the foreign | 5:08:47 | 5:08:56 | |
affairs select committee dealt with
this, with the point about Hezbollah | 5:08:56 | 5:08:59 | |
being one single organisation, as
the member just said, Hezbollah's | 5:08:59 | 5:09:09 | |
political affairs official said,
everyone is aware of the fact that | 5:09:09 | 5:09:14 | |
Hezbollah is one body and one entity
and its military and political wings | 5:09:14 | 5:09:18 | |
are unified, that is what they are
saying, not what we are saying, that | 5:09:18 | 5:09:24 | |
is the point the government should
be considering. With all due | 5:09:24 | 5:09:29 | |
respect, I also have to take regard
of the point that I do disagree with | 5:09:29 | 5:09:33 | |
the chair of the foreign affairs
select committee and I visited | 5:09:33 | 5:09:37 | |
Lebanon in June last year to meet
the government, the Lebanese Armed | 5:09:37 | 5:09:41 | |
Forces and other agencies including
the United Nations to discuss the | 5:09:41 | 5:09:45 | |
future of Lebanon and the UK
persistence and I disagree with your | 5:09:45 | 5:09:49 | |
view about engaging with the
Lebanese government cash assistance. | 5:09:49 | 5:09:55 | |
-- assistance. Simple question, does
he believe the United States has any | 5:09:55 | 5:10:01 | |
difficulty in engaging in dialogue
with Lebanon given that they have | 5:10:01 | 5:10:07 | |
taken the view that both Atzenbrugg
macro are one and the same, there is | 5:10:07 | 5:10:10 | |
no division? -- that both parts of
Hezbollah are one and the same. The | 5:10:10 | 5:10:18 | |
United States find it harder to
engage with Lebanon than the UK | 5:10:18 | 5:10:21 | |
Government. I visited the US Embassy
in Beirut and I spent time at the | 5:10:21 | 5:10:30 | |
oral -- memorial to those killed.
The US did not take these things | 5:10:30 | 5:10:36 | |
lightly and they do what they can to
secure Lebanon as a strong state, | 5:10:36 | 5:10:39 | |
but the other part of the
observation, the US has prescribed | 5:10:39 | 5:10:44 | |
Hezbollah in its entirety for some
time and as we heard from members | 5:10:44 | 5:10:47 | |
opposite, that hasn't prevented
Hezbollah from growing exponentially | 5:10:47 | 5:10:53 | |
and it hasn't been a silver bullet
and it hasn't stopped Hezbollah | 5:10:53 | 5:10:56 | |
behaving as it has, and that is why
I made it clear point that | 5:10:56 | 5:11:01 | |
proscription is one part of our
tours, indeed in with terrorism and | 5:11:01 | 5:11:06 | |
hatred and incitement. I said I
would press on before I gave way. We | 5:11:06 | 5:11:14 | |
don't condone... The government
doesn't condone any terrorist | 5:11:14 | 5:11:16 | |
activity and we continue to call and
press Hezbollah to end its status as | 5:11:16 | 5:11:20 | |
an armed group as well as to
participate in the Lebanese | 5:11:20 | 5:11:24 | |
democratic process on the same terms
as other political parties. As you | 5:11:24 | 5:11:27 | |
will be aware, groups that are not
included on the list are not free to | 5:11:27 | 5:11:37 | |
incite hatred, and by not being
prescribed does not mean that you | 5:11:37 | 5:11:42 | |
can just do lots of things that we
would view as illegal. I will give | 5:11:42 | 5:11:45 | |
way. Let's cut through the rhetoric
and ask a simple question, what does | 5:11:45 | 5:11:52 | |
he think the motivation is of
British nationals flying a foreign | 5:11:52 | 5:11:57 | |
flag of a political organisation
whose stated aims are to kill every | 5:11:57 | 5:12:01 | |
Jew and annihilate the state of
Israel? I'm not going to speak on | 5:12:01 | 5:12:07 | |
behalf on protesters I've never met
walking down Oxford Street but what | 5:12:07 | 5:12:10 | |
I will say, and I heard your points
earlier about the frustrations with | 5:12:10 | 5:12:14 | |
the police in taking action, the
police already have, rancid powers | 5:12:14 | 5:12:20 | |
to take actions against individuals
under criminal law | 5:12:20 | 5:12:23 |