25/01/2018 House of Commons


25/01/2018

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He raises a very important issue. He

might want to seek an adjournment

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debate to get a clear answer from

ministers.

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THE SPEAKER: Statement, the

Secretary of State for Defence.

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Secretary Gavin William son.

Thank

you, Mr Speaker.

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I undertook to return to the House

at the earliest opportunity to

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update honourable and Right

Honourable members on the programme

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to modernise defence, which the

Ministry of Defence will be

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conducting in the months ahead.

Following agreement of the high

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level findings of the national

capability review by the National

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Security Council, I have agreed with

the Prime Minister and Chancellor

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that we should take forward its

recommendations for a programme of

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further work to modernise defence,

to deliver better military

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capability and value for money in a

sustainable and affordable way. This

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is essential if defence is to make

its full contribution to national

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security. For 2015 national skurt

strategy and the SDR set out a clear

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ambition to ensure the Armed Forces

can tackle the threats that we face.

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It also proposed important new

policy initiatives, including a

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stronger international approach.

Pursuit of innovation, modernise

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personnel policies and defence

making a bigger contribution to our

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national prosperity.

And we're making real strides to

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unlock greater efficiency and

productivity.

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Protecting the United Kingdom and

our people remains our first

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priority and responsibility.

As the threats we face become more

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complex and intertwined we will need

to work ever more closely with our

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Nato allies.

We can also expect to remain

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actively involved with our partners

in the Gulf in tackling shared

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threats to our security and the Asia

Pacific region will become more

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important to us in the years ahead.

The Ministry of Defence is making a

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major contribution to our

prosperity. Both as we procure the

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equipment our Armed Forces deserve

and support defence exports, in

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which there have been recent

successes, most notably the £6

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billionTy foon contract agreed with

Qatar. Significant events last week,

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the callous terrorist attacks in

London and Manchester and the major

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storms which ravaged dependencies in

the Caribbean. They are reminders of

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our wider responsibilities. We need

to contain threats that have their

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origin overseas and be prepared to

react swiftly and effectively when

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crisis arise. As we identified in

2015, this requires the force we are

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building to be versatile and agile.

It will need to be capable of

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operating in all five domains, land,

sea, air, space and cyber. It will

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need to be international by design,

routinely exercising and operating

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with allies and partners. It will

need to be credible and capable of

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operating against state and none

state threats. Normally not alone,

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but with allies, such as Nato and

our partners, but always having the

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ability to act on our own if and

when that is required.

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And it must be able to contribute to

our national security at home,

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working with the police and other

national security organisations.

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Whilst the major elements of our

plans for joint force 2025 remain

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the right ones, in order to secure

competitive advantage over our

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potential adversaries we need to

ensure we can move quickly, to

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further strengthen our capabilities

in priority areas and reduce

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resources we devote elsewhere. The

Government commissioned the national

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security capability review to the

sure we have a policy and plans to

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impl I meant our own national

security strategy, ensuring our

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investment in national security

capabilities is as joined up,

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effective and as constituent as

possible to address current national

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security challenges.

A report will be published later in

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the spring. As my Right Honourable

friend, the Prime Minister, said, in

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her recent Lord mayor's banquet

speech, the threats and risks and

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challenges are more complex and

intertwined and have developed in

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areas and ways that we broadly

expected but as a much greater pace

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than was foreseen.

The defence budget is £36 billion

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this year. That's the fifth largest

defence budget in the world and it

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will increase by £1 billion a year,

so that it will almost be £40

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billion by 2021. The UK Government

remains one of a few countries to

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exceed Nato's 2% spending target.

This Government has committed to

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increase the defence budget by at

least 0.5% above inflation every

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year. However, we must do more to

ensure that we use our resources

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effectively and deliver the

efficiencies the department

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committed to. So they can be

reinvested in the capabilities that

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we require for our Armed Forces it

is for this reason that I agreed

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with the Prime Minister and the

Chancellor to launch the modernising

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defence programme, so that we can

strengthen and modernise the Armed

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Forces, to meet the threats that

were identified. Modernising defence

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will allow us to deliver better

military capability and value for

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money in a sustainable and

affordable way. It will ensure

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defence capabilities compliment

other national security capabilities

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in the most effective way. I'm

determined to realise this goal

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through a modernised, more

productive and more effective joint

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force, which can deter threats more

effectively and ensure we can

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deliver what is required of defence

today and succeed in any future

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conflicts. Turning this approach

into reality will be my key goal for

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the modernising defence programme.

This programme will involve four

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strands of work. The first three

will opt miez how the MOD is

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organised and is operating. Identify

further constituencies and ways to

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be more productive, including

through an aggressive programme of

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business modernisation and improve

our performance on the commercial

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and industrial issues. The fourth

strand will look at the capabilities

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that defence requires to contribute

to our three national security

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objectives today and in the future.

But most importantly, understanding

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the threats and the ever changing

threats that this country faces.

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I'm determined to use the

modernising defence programme to

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ensure that defence can make its

full contribution to our national

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security on a sustainable basis.

This is a programme of work that I

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will speak to honourable and Right

Honourable members on a very regular

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basis and I will keep this house

updates as decisions are made.

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In the mean time, I would warmly

welcome any contributions,

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honourable and Right Honourable

members would like to make. I and my

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department will be consulting beyond

this House as this programme of work

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gets under way in the weeks ahead.

Protecting our national security and

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the safety of the British people,

both at home and abroad remains the

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Government's first priority. And

make no mistake, the world is

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becoming a more dangerous place. We

cannot afford to shy away from this

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reality, nor can we take our

security for granted. But even more

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than that, in a post Brexit world,

Britain must continue to champion

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the global good. It must continue to

reach out to seize global

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opportunities and deal with global

threats. Our history teaches us that

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we can't have prosperity without

security, to protect that

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prosperity, we must have Armed

Forces primed and ready to tackle

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the challenges to come.

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Thank you very much. I am sure I

speak for members across the House

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in paying tribute to dedication of

our Armed Forces. Now, can I thank

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the Secretary of State for his

statement and for advanced sight of

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it? Can I respectfully day, Mr

Speaker that the way in which this

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has been arranged be I the

Government has been shambolic from

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start to finish. Utterly

discourteous to honourable and Right

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Honourable members, some of whom may

be elsewhere today because of

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explicit and repeated assurances by

the Government that this statement

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would come on Monday. I am sure

you've noted, Mr Speaker, the

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members first heard news of this

announcement when it was briefed out

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to journ liteses on Tuesday

afternoon. Without so much as a

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written statement in this place.

Then we had the complete farce of

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yesterday when the Government

indicated it would make a statement,

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then it was off, then it was on and

finally on again with a full update

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promised on Monday. Clearly, Mr

Speaker, the new facility to combat

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fake news is badly needed. We were

talking about 7o clock, I think, you

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know.

Some people.

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Right.

OK, let's... If I may proceed, OK.

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It doesn't fill me with much

confidence, Mr Speaker, about the

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conduct of the review. Its origins

have been so mired in chaos. Of

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course we do welcome the decision to

separate out modernising defence

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programme from the national security

review. But the decision to hold a

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separate Defence Review must not

simply be an excuse to kick the

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difficult decisions facing the

defence budget into the long grass.

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This week we heard grave warnings

from the Chief of the General Staff

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about the threats that this country

faces. And there's been growing

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concern that the Government's savage

cuts to our nation's defences have

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left us ill equipped to respond to

those threats. The many easture of

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this review will be in the detail. I

hope the Secretary of State will be

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able to give us some specific

answers today. So, turning to the

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most important question - will the

review be fiscally neutral? We know

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that much of the concern with the

NSCR was that it was being carried

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out within the same funding envop

lol as the spend -- envelope as the

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Spending Review. If it shows it is

necessary for the spending of our

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nation, will the Government up to

the plate? Surely he must agree that

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it would be pointless to have a

review that finds that we need to

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have additional equipment or

increased personnel only for the

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Government to ignore that

recommendation. You cannot do

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security on the cheap, Mr Speaker

and it is high time the Government

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recognised this. And yet, the

statement makes reference to further

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efficiencies being carried out as

part of this review. Raising the

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spectre of yet further cuts.

Crucially, how does this review fit

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into the work being done by the

national security adviser? Are the

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recommendations that he may have

made on defence, as part of the

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NSCR, to be carried into this review

or is it a case of start from

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strach. When it comes to threat

assessment will the programme and

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NSCR have a common view of what the

most significant threats are? Will

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the planned numbers or targets for

our Armed Forces change? If they do,

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there will be on-going

restructuring? The will this review

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potentially include the cancellation

or downscaling of procurement plans

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sf if so how will industry be

involved in the process. What is the

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planned timetable for this review?

When it will be published? It is

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vital personnel are not kept in

limbo about their future but can get

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answers. This review represents an

important opportunity for there to

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be a step change in for the defence

policy. We all hope the Defence

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Secretary will use this chance to

deliver real investment in our

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nation's defences and the resources

that our Armed Forces so badly need.

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I take on board the honourable

lady's comments about the

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organisational future statements and

commit to improve on that, Mr

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Speaker. I also thank the honourable

lady's of this review and the fact

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we have brought it about. She

mentioned the chief of the General

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staff and his comments. I think it

is important that the people that

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need our Armed Forces actually do

have a voice and do speak about the

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threats this country faces. We have

spent 20 years where we felt the

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threats this country faces have

maybe disappeared and actually we've

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got used to not facing peer enemies.

That isn't the world we live in

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today and I think it would be

irresponsible if we didn't talk

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about those threats because the

British people do have to understand

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the challenges that our nation faces

and what the Armed Forces are facing

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on dealing with every single day.

The honourable lady asked the

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question, is this aiming to be

fiscally neutral as a review and no

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it isn't, it is looking at how we

can actually get the Armed Forces

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that we need in order to deal with

the threats we face. The Government

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is absolutely committed to

delivering the very best Armed

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Forces and that is what so many

members on this side of the House

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and on the opposite side of the

House are equally committed to, and

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I very much hope you will continue

to support the Ministry of Defence

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and the Armed Forces in the work we

do to get the very best Armed Forces

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for future generations. And she asks

as to when it will be published. My

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aim is to publish it in the summer.

My hope is we will be publishing it

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before the House rises for summer

recess. But I really would emphasise

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the fact we do want to hear people's

views. The Armed Forces always need

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to change and evolve. She asked the

question as to why I say about

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efficiencies. I think every

organisation, every organisation in

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Government, should always be looking

at how they can do things better and

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do things more efficiently I don't

apologise for saying, because I

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think actually the Ministry of

Defence can actually do things

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better. I want them to do better, I

want them to be able to drive

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efficiencies so that money can be

used in order to be put into the

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front line for our Armed Forces.

Let's not be hesitant in coming

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forward with ideas and if the

honourable lady has some ideas as to

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house these -- how she thinks this

can be done better I will be always

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willing to listen to them, but once

again I thank her for welcoming the

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review and look forward to working

with her and all members of the

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House to try to make sure this

review very much works for our Armed

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Forces.

Mr Speaker, can I welcome my

right honourable friend obviously to

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his place. Can I say I have sat

sadly in this place for 25 years,

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and every single government brings

forward another statement about

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modernising the Armed Forces and

invariably ends up spending less

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money on the Armed Forces. I may

urge my right honourable friend in

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the course of his conduct, can he

please learn from some of the

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previous mistakes which have been

made such as when we went into the

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Bosnia area and have a just-in-time

approach which ended up with tanks

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left by the side of the road because

we could not get to them in time.

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Can we make sure he does not repeat

the nonsense of when people say

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modernise they actually mean cut.

We

will try to learn as many lessons as

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possible from history and I know my

right honourable friend has a lot of

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personal experience of the Armed

Forces and very much welcome his

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contribution in terms of the review

going forward. We want to have a

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very best Armed Forces we can have.

This isn't aimed as being some

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operation to take money off the

Armed Forces, it's making sure we

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have the Armed Forces and give them

the support we need and the

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recognition they do one of the most

amazing jobs for our country, and

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that is what we hope to achieve as

part of this review.

Can I thank the

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Defence Secretary for his statement

in advance but the public must

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understand the farce we went through

yesterday to get this place. The

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statement was on, it was off, maybe

on, definitely off, happening next

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week, and then we learn it's

happening today so better late than

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never I suppose. Can I also say to

the Secretary of State that we must

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stop reading about these reviews in

the Times newspaper. He must

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endeavour to come to the House more

often rather than allowing leaks to

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newspapers. I realise he's here now

but members know exactly what I'm

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referring to. Can I ask a couple of

questions on his statement. In

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relation to the announcement this

week on his new disinformation unit,

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can he expand on that? If it is not

to be fiscally neutral, can he

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confirmed that as a departure from

what Sir Mark told the Defence

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Select Committee in a letter when he

said it was fiscally neutral, and if

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not can members of the Armed Forces

expect to pay rise when his review

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concludes? Can he tell us how the

review will deal with Russian

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activity in and over the North

Atlantic. Will he agreed to meet

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with myself to discuss that in

particular? And will he commit to

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when the reporting comes in the

summer he will handle this a lot

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better than when he handled it

yesterday.

The honourable gentleman

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seems to think the British public

are really interested as to the

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tabling of when statements are. I

think the British people are really

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in trusted in the fact this

Government is acting to make sure

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our Armed Forces have the resources

they need. That is what they are

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interested in. What we are aiming to

do in terms of this review, it isn't

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aiming to be fiscally neutral, which

is why we brought it out of the

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capability review which was a

separate review mechanism that Sir

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Mark, who is doing an amazing job in

terms of work on that, had outlined

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it would be fiscally neutral but

this has been something that has led

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on from the national security and

capability review. I would be more

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than happy to meet with him and

discuss some of the wider issues and

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concerns he has in the North

Atlantic.

Is my right honourable

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friend where he will have support of

the whole House if he manages to

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secure additional funding for the

precious this year and next year but

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then put the defence budget onto a

more sustainable footing that allows

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our Armed Forces to tackle the

increased threats they face without

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demoralising rumours of deep cuts.

The words here are interesting and

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important, but what really matters

in the end is money, more money.

I'd

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like to thank my right honourable

friend for all he has done for our

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Armed Forces. Without his work and

campaigning, we wouldn't have been

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in a situation where we would have

been having a rising budget today

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with the extra £4 billion worth of

extra resources committed to our

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Armed Forces by the Government. I

will certainly take on board his

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comments and I notice his article in

the Telegraph today, which I thought

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set absolutely the right tone in

terms of approach of how we take

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things forward. I hope I have the

opportunity to sit down with him to

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discuss how we get the balance right

and make sure we achieve everything

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that he has set out and built on for

our Armed Forces over the past four

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years. We do need to look at getting

additional resources for Armed

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Forces so that they have the

capability to protect and truly

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defend Britain's global interests,

both near and far.

I have to save

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that my reaction to this much

heralded and hokey Cokie statement

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is, is that it? Because the hands

were very clearly the hands of

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Hammond. Will he therefore confirm

whether it is still fiscally

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neutral? Why does it not say

increases in security expenditure

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will not be at the expense of

defence. Why won't he confirmed the

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winners are in fact the Treasury and

their view that there are no votes

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in defence. And in spite of his warm

words, well the real losers be our

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superb troops, excellent defence

industry and defence of our nation?

0:23:190:23:24

I do apologise if the right

honourable gentleman didn't hear me

0:23:240:23:28

but the aim is not for this

programme to be... You know, there

0:23:280:23:33

is into constraint on it being

fiscally neutral. We are looking at

0:23:330:23:37

what we can do and how we can

deliver it to the best of ability.

0:23:370:23:40

I'm grateful to the Chancellor and

Prime Minister for the work they

0:23:400:23:44

have done in terms of working

towards the position where we can

0:23:440:23:49

put forward this programme and we

have the opportunity to look at the

0:23:490:23:53

needs of our defence industry and

establishment.

I have every sympathy

0:23:530:24:01

with the Secretary of State in terms

of over the last two days when this

0:24:010:24:05

was going to be announced, the old

army motto knickers on knickers off

0:24:050:24:11

that many of us are familiar with.

Can I ask the Secretary of State, a

0:24:110:24:19

number of colleagues including the

right honourable member for

0:24:190:24:22

Chingford have pointed out the

crucial matter of money. 20 years

0:24:220:24:26

ago the then Labour government

carried out an enormous Strategic

0:24:260:24:31

Defence Review which on the whole

was well received but it was never

0:24:310:24:35

funded. Has the Secretary of State

got any confidence at all that his

0:24:350:24:40

recommendations will actually be

funded by the Treasury?

The answer

0:24:400:24:50

is yes, I very much hope the

recommendations of the programme

0:24:500:24:53

will be listened to very closely by

the Prime Minister and the

0:24:530:24:59

Chancellor, and the whole aim of

doing this programme is to give the

0:24:590:25:04

Armed Forces the opportunity to set

clearly out a case of resources we

0:25:040:25:08

need going forward.

While the last

48 hours may have been somewhat

0:25:080:25:18

chaotic and more concerned about

seeing rumour and speculation

0:25:180:25:24

undermining not only our global

reputation because of the confidence

0:25:240:25:27

of our serving personnel about their

futures. Rumours about the Parachute

0:25:270:25:31

Regiment merging with the Royal

Marines, all of this has been

0:25:310:25:36

nonsense. Can you give assurances we

will stop seeing these rumours on

0:25:360:25:40

the front page of the daily Times

and that we will be informed about

0:25:400:25:45

what's happening? And more

importantly what's happening with

0:25:450:25:49

the review, where is the threat

assessment coming from? In terms of

0:25:490:25:55

modernisation, can you give

assurances of what the terms of

0:25:550:25:58

references will be and when we will

see them?

This I think there's been

0:25:580:26:03

an awful lot of speculation over the

past few months and virtually all of

0:26:030:26:07

it has been proved to be completely

untrue. I continue to keep the House

0:26:070:26:14

updated, as I promised to in my

statements, and I will be doing

0:26:140:26:19

everything I can to make sure the

Armed Forces as well as this House

0:26:190:26:23

are listened to as we developed the

programme going forward.

Going

0:26:230:26:29

forward, things like cyber, Intel

and asymmetric warfare and drones

0:26:290:26:36

will touch both upon security and

defence. How is he going to

0:26:360:26:41

delineate the review from the one he

has announced and will lead?

We will

0:26:410:26:48

be continuously working very close

with Sir Mark and all the work

0:26:480:26:55

that's being done. It would be crazy

to do that. What the review

0:26:550:27:03

identified was that actually more

work needed to be done in terms of

0:27:030:27:08

the Ministry of Defence budget

because if it was going to be

0:27:080:27:11

fiscally neutral, that wouldn't have

been possible to be able to deliver

0:27:110:27:15

in that way. We will be working

closely with the Cabinet office to

0:27:150:27:18

make sure that everything that we

have done sits within the priorities

0:27:180:27:25

of the National Security Council. In

terms of cyber attack, this is

0:27:250:27:30

something the Ministry of Defence

itself leads on so all the work

0:27:300:27:35

across all those realms are done

incomplete conjuncture with all the

0:27:350:27:41

parts of our national security

infrastructure, whether that is

0:27:410:27:47

GCHQ, MI5 and MI6, and that is

something that is essential going

0:27:470:27:50

forward.

0:27:500:27:53

. I think there'll be merit in him

coming to the joint strategy

0:27:550:27:59

committee so we can dig into the

detail of his announcement more

0:27:590:28:02

thoroughly. I wonder if he agrees

many ethat quantity has a quality

0:28:020:28:07

all of its own? And then given the

threats we know we face, any further

0:28:070:28:12

reduction in Armed Forces personnel

would be extremely unwise.

0:28:120:28:18

Well, we have made a commitment in

terms of the size of our armed

0:28:190:28:23

forced. I think there is a very

strong argument that you don't just

0:28:230:28:28

need to have forces that have a very

best equipment but you also need to

0:28:280:28:33

have mass in order to be able to

deploy.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Nick

0:28:330:28:42

Carter stated the Russians could go

to war far faster than we thought

0:28:420:28:47

previously. Could I ask my Right

Honourable friend if he'll allow

0:28:470:28:52

consideration and support for

leaving say a brigade in Germany so

0:28:520:28:56

we are closer to where the battles

may well be?

We're very much looking

0:28:560:29:02

forward at that option because we

need to ensure that forces that are

0:29:020:29:08

either further east have the ability

to be properly resupplied and

0:29:080:29:12

supported.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I

think the whole House will

0:29:120:29:18

congratulate him for taking this

review out of the straitjacket. But

0:29:180:29:25

is there a risk that the submarine

programme, in particular funding for

0:29:250:29:32

Atut Boat 7, which has not been

priced, could be rediverted by this

0:29:320:29:37

review?

It's too early in the

process to be able to sort of

0:29:370:29:43

comment on that. I will look at the

issue he's raised and I will come

0:29:430:29:47

back to him. The whole point of the

programme is obviously to look at

0:29:470:29:51

things afresh. But we have commented

quite regularly about the increasing

0:29:510:29:57

threat that we are facing in the

North Atlantic and this is something

0:29:570:30:00

raised by members and it is about

making sure that we have the

0:30:000:30:06

submarines that are able to operate

and defend the Norfolk land and I

0:30:060:30:11

will come back to that.

Can I thank my Right Honourable

0:30:110:30:16

friend for delivering good news to

the House and congratulate him for

0:30:160:30:22

leveraging the somewhat unexpected

and suddenness of his appointment to

0:30:220:30:27

advantage for Her Majesty's Armed

Forces and for the Ministry of

0:30:270:30:31

Defence and leveraging control over

the Defence Review for the first

0:30:310:30:33

time back into the department since

2010 represents a return of san

0:30:330:30:39

knitty because the present Defence

Review is proving undeliverable and

0:30:390:30:42

showing what will happen if it is

divorced from the department to who

0:30:420:30:49

has to deliver it?

I think my

honourable friend makes an important

0:30:490:30:54

point in terms of this programme

being led by the Ministry of

0:30:540:30:58

Defence. We need the Armed Forces,

ones who are leading this programme,

0:30:580:31:01

as they have the greatest

understanding of the needs and the

0:31:010:31:04

support that they will require in

order to be most effective going

0:31:040:31:09

forward.

Mr Speaker, we all welcome the

0:31:090:31:17

impending completion of our new

aircraft carriers. However, there is

0:31:170:31:20

some indication that we have

insufficient Royal Navy surface

0:31:200:31:26

warships, frigates and destroyers to

provide a screen for these mag

0:31:260:31:33

nificent fleet in a combat

situation. How is this sorted out?

0:31:330:31:38

That is why my predecessor made it

clear we will invest in the tip 30

0:31:380:31:45

and type 21 frigates to make sure we

have the protective screen all

0:31:450:31:50

around those magnificent aircraft

carriers that everyone in the United

0:31:500:31:54

Kingdom is so very proud of. I

welcome the Secretary of State's

0:31:540:31:57

statement and the upbeat nature of

its tone. Will he confirm though

0:31:570:32:01

that we've had a lot of discussion

around threats in the North Atlantic

0:32:010:32:05

and Russia. Will he confirm he will

look at the threat around Suez, as

0:32:050:32:10

with Brexit more of our trade will

depend on that part of the world. We

0:32:100:32:18

are looking at how to improve the

prosperity of the nation. When we

0:32:180:32:22

talk about global Britain, when we

talk about international diplomacy,

0:32:220:32:29

actually our Armed Forces are

sometimes, virtually always, the

0:32:290:32:34

best diplomats because actually when

they see British forces, whether it

0:32:340:32:38

is for British Army, the Royal Air

Force or the Royal Navy it is a real

0:32:380:32:44

symbol of Britain's reach. A symbol

of what we can achieve in the world

0:32:440:32:48

and we will absolutely, certainly,

be looking far beyond Suez.

0:32:480:32:55

Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Defence

Secretary will know that there's

0:32:560:32:59

nobody in the House today who

believes our defence forces are

0:32:590:33:03

anything other than underfunded.

With that background, if he's going

0:33:030:33:08

to have the meaningful conversation

with the nation that he's indicated

0:33:080:33:11

in his statement, will he give very

early consideration to publishing

0:33:110:33:16

the terms of reference and the

perception of the changing strategic

0:33:160:33:20

threat that this nation of ours

faces?

Well, the national security

0:33:200:33:26

and capability review will be

looking at coming forward with a

0:33:260:33:32

document explaining as to how it

sees the sort of threats and how we

0:33:320:33:37

respond to it. That will be very

much in the public domain and what

0:33:370:33:41

we need to be seeing is having that

more active debate. That's certainly

0:33:410:33:45

something that I think we all

encourage because that threat, those

0:33:450:33:50

threats that we are facing are

developing so very, very quickly.

0:33:500:33:55

Just five years ago, Russia was not

seen as a real threat to our

0:33:550:33:58

national security. We have to start

talking about it. If we don't talk

0:33:580:34:02

about it, people don't understand

those threats. I am certainly

0:34:020:34:06

encouraging that debate going

forward.

0:34:060:34:08

Thank you, Mr Speaker. Given the

nature of the increasing tensions

0:34:080:34:12

with Russia, as my Right Honourable

friend has alluded to, will he give

0:34:120:34:18

me an assurance that the size and

frequentsy of British deployments to

0:34:180:34:23

Poland will increase under this

review?

So, just before Christmas I

0:34:230:34:31

had the opportunity of visiting our

troops in Poland, who are stationed

0:34:310:34:34

there. At the moment, we're not

currently looking at increasing the

0:34:340:34:39

number of troops in Poland, but we

always are talking very closely with

0:34:390:34:44

our Nato partners. That I are on a

six-month rotation, which seems to

0:34:440:34:48

suit matters currently. But we will

keep that matter under review.

0:34:480:34:58

Aren't the wild and petulant

infantism by the statements of our

0:34:580:35:02

world leaders a great threat to the

security of the world? Doesn't

0:35:020:35:07

history tell thaws a greatest

accelerant to war is an expectation

0:35:070:35:11

of war that we're fuelling at the

moment? Wouldn't it be better for us

0:35:110:35:16

to look at the great work we could

do in Bangladesh, on the border

0:35:160:35:20

there now, in peacekeeping, rather

than thinking of war-making?

We, as

0:35:200:35:26

a nation, are one of the most active

nations in making sure that we bring

0:35:260:35:33

peace right across the globe. We

have a great history and we should

0:35:330:35:36

take great pride in everything we

have achieved in the past. I have no

0:35:360:35:39

doubt we'll achieve in the future.

But we have to understand that

0:35:390:35:45

people who are threatening Britain

don't respect weakness. They do not

0:35:450:35:51

respect the fact that we, if we were

to disarm f we were to get rid of a

0:35:510:35:56

nuclear deterrent, if we were to get

rid or diminish our conventional

0:35:560:36:02

forces that would make them no less

likely to attack us and we have to

0:36:020:36:07

have an effective deterrent and that

deterrent is not just nuclear. It is

0:36:070:36:12

a conventional deterrent as well.

Mr Speaker, innovative technology

0:36:120:36:19

firms in the SSE sector make sure

our Armed Forces have access to the

0:36:190:36:25

best possibility equipment. Will he

make sure as this rolls forward will

0:36:250:36:29

he make sure it is considered?

I

know my honourable friend has done a

0:36:290:36:34

lot of work on the fourth Industrial

Revolution. It is how we can harness

0:36:340:36:39

those new technologies to give our

military the constant advantage

0:36:390:36:42

going forward and the battlefield is

changing incredibly rapidly. If we

0:36:420:36:48

can work with small and medium-sized

businesses, yes, we need to do it

0:36:480:36:52

more. Sometimes the most innovative

ideas are come from those

0:36:520:36:56

businesses. I appreciated the time

he took to speak with me of some of

0:36:560:37:01

the work in his constituency of

Havant and looking forward to

0:37:010:37:06

working with him further for that.

I

welcome the review that postpones

0:37:060:37:13

defence cuts T longer uncertainty

goes on it is hit more. Can Plymouth

0:37:130:37:24

be reassured that it will not be cut

in the cuts announced.

What we have

0:37:240:37:29

outlined in terms of the programme

is we need to do this quickly. We

0:37:290:37:32

have very conscious of the concerns

that people have who serve in the

0:37:320:37:36

Armed Forces that is why we are

committed to make sure we will

0:37:360:37:40

report back before the summer

recess.

What the Secretary of State

0:37:400:37:43

may not realise is that although

Derby is as far as fr the sea as you

0:37:430:37:47

can get we have a very strong

relationship with a sub mariner

0:37:470:37:51

associations and they are the unsung

heroes. They are under the sea for

0:37:510:37:55

months at a time. Can we ensure they

are, an essential part of this

0:37:550:38:01

review and they are looked after?

Don't forget that the submarines are

0:38:010:38:10

powered by Rolls-Royce engines from

Derby?

And very fine engines they R

0:38:100:38:15

and we're approaching almost 50

years that we've had a continuous

0:38:150:38:19

at-sea nuclear deterrent. And the

wo, that the sub mariner force

0:38:190:38:25

inevitably goes unnoticed. That is

the aim. But what they do in terms

0:38:250:38:31

of actually protecting this country

is truly magnificent and without

0:38:310:38:36

their work, without their

commitment, without this, without

0:38:360:38:38

their dedication the country would

be a lot less safe.

0:38:380:38:43

I think this is the first chance

I've had to welcome my opposite

0:38:430:38:49

number to the dispatch point. At

which point would Trident become a

0:38:490:38:53

burden on the defence subject or the

budget of the country as a whole if

0:38:530:38:57

it takes up a greater proportion,

far from keeping us safe it puts

0:38:570:39:04

pressure on conventional forces and

can put pressure in harms way?

I

0:39:040:39:10

dearly miss my former honourable

counterpart in terms of the work we

0:39:100:39:15

did as chief whips together. The

nuclear, continuous at sea deterrent

0:39:150:39:21

is a vital part of our defence. But

we can never see it in isolation. So

0:39:210:39:26

often we talk about continuous at

sea nuclear deterrents and not

0:39:260:39:32

without a recognition that the

deterrents is the whole spectrum

0:39:320:39:37

from infantry, whether it is royal

naval frigates, destroyers, whether

0:39:370:39:43

it is RAF helicopters or fast jets

and the British Army itself. So, it

0:39:430:39:50

is an integral part of it. But if we

got rid of the continuous at sea

0:39:500:39:58

nuclear deterrent, we would make

Britain less safe and we have to

0:39:580:40:01

have it. And I would have thought

it's something the honourable

0:40:010:40:05

gentleman would always welcome

because it brings an awful lot of

0:40:050:40:09

wealth, prosperity and an awful lot

of jobs to Scotland. On this side

0:40:090:40:13

we're very proud of that.

Mr

Speaker, I welcome the secretary of

0:40:130:40:18

state's statement. And would he

agree that flexibility in order to

0:40:180:40:22

support our allies when we required

is vital? I want to highlight the

0:40:220:40:27

flexibility of the ma reaps and I

have 4th commando in my constituency

0:40:270:40:32

not in terms of security but in

terms of helping the community in

0:40:320:40:37

times of floods and hurry tans, for

example.

0:40:370:40:41

-- hurricanes, for example. I know

note my honourable friend's comments

0:40:410:40:48

about the flexibility of the Royal

Marines. She's right. It is the

0:40:480:40:52

parachute reg mentd, it is every

part of -- regiment. It is every

0:40:520:40:58

part, the Royal Navy, the Royal Air

Force and the auxiliary. We saw in

0:40:580:41:02

the Caribbean how they stepped up at

a moment's notice to deliver relief

0:41:020:41:06

to tens of thousands of people. We

see it every year. Where there is

0:41:060:41:10

tragedy that hits different parts of

the United Kingdom, how they step up

0:41:100:41:14

to the. We are very proud of that

and there is an essential part of

0:41:140:41:18

what they do and will continue to

do.

0:41:180:41:23

My constituents have raised with me

the important of retain in this

0:41:230:41:29

country the capability to produce

the equipment we need for our Armed

0:41:290:41:32

Forces. I wonder as the new

Secretary of State what his views

0:41:320:41:35

were on the importance and what

importance he puts on that?

I put a

0:41:350:41:41

great importance on it. I want to

see whenever we can do to purchase

0:41:410:41:47

products that are manufactured here

in Britain. But going forward, we

0:41:470:41:51

also have to look at how we can

manufacture products that we can't

0:41:510:41:55

just sell to the Ministry of

Defence, but we can also sell right

0:41:550:42:00

across the globe. Because actually

the more we have in terms of the

0:42:000:42:06

product portfolio that we can sell

into the Gulf, to Europe, the United

0:42:060:42:11

States, the better for British

industry.

0:42:110:42:14

Will the Secretary of State make

certain as part of his review that

0:42:140:42:19

the innovation of British

enterprises ensures we have the most

0:42:190:42:22

modern weapons for our tanks, ships

and planes?

Absolutely.

0:42:220:42:27

This is where we can have the

opportunity to embrace new

0:42:300:42:35

technology, make our Armed Forces

more effective in terms of what they

0:42:350:42:39

can do. If we stand still, our

enemies will overtake us and we have

0:42:390:42:44

some of the most innovative

companies in this country, we have

0:42:440:42:47

got to make use of that innovation.

Companies that sometimes have never

0:42:470:42:52

before sold to defence.

I had hoped

to ask the Secretary of State for

0:42:520:43:00

reassurance for the service

personnel under thousands of people

0:43:000:43:04

across Lancashire working in the

defence industry, however I am aware

0:43:040:43:06

that the statement was expected on

Monday. Can I ask the Secretary of

0:43:060:43:12

State, will his still be open to

colleagues who are not in the

0:43:120:43:16

Chamber today because of the nature

of the statement and will he meet

0:43:160:43:19

with them?

I will always meet with

them. Jobs in Lancashire is

0:43:190:43:25

something very close to my heart and

I was very proud to be able to sign

0:43:250:43:29

a deal with the Qataris for the

largest Cabinet typhoon order in

0:43:290:43:36

over a decade. We need to do more of

that. -- Typhoon order. I look

0:43:360:43:45

forward to working with members on

both sides of the house to make sure

0:43:450:43:49

British defence industry continues

to thrive and prosper going forward.

0:43:490:43:54

I congratulate my right honourable

friend on his statement. What does

0:43:540:43:59

he believe the impact of the outcome

of the review will be on the vital

0:43:590:44:04

issues of recruitment and retention?

I do not want to prejudge the whole

0:44:040:44:13

programme just yet. But what we do

need to do is to give people the

0:44:130:44:19

real confidence and belief that the

Armed Forces are treasured and

0:44:190:44:24

valued by everyone in this country,

if they join the army, the Navy,

0:44:240:44:30

that air force, they are not just

going to have a great career, they

0:44:300:44:34

will have the best possible career

anyone could ever have. I hope this

0:44:340:44:38

programme can give them the

confidence that a career in our

0:44:380:44:42

Armed Forces is the best they can

pursue.

It is great to see you back

0:44:420:44:49

in the chair. I believe the

Secretary of State... The danger of

0:44:490:44:55

continually augmenting our threat

assessments, losing capacity,

0:44:550:44:58

finding old threats renewed. In

looking to modernise, can I urge the

0:44:580:45:05

Secretary of State to look closely

at Northern Ireland, recognise a

0:45:050:45:09

constituency like mine has the UK's

largest drydock, suitable for Queen

0:45:090:45:14

Elizabeth class carriers, but also

the latest cyber security centres

0:45:140:45:20

within the city? Northern Ireland

has never been found wanting when it

0:45:200:45:23

comes to personal or procurement

opportunities.

We owe a great debt

0:45:230:45:30

to Northern Ireland. It contributes

7% of our Armed Forces, far greater

0:45:300:45:37

than its actual population, both in

terms of the regular army and the

0:45:370:45:41

reserves. I will very much have

Northern Ireland at the forefront.

0:45:410:45:47

I'm not sure if the Democratic

Unionist Party would like to suggest

0:45:470:45:52

a third aircraft carrier to be built

there... But it is absolutely vital

0:45:520:45:59

to continue to work together and

make sure that part of the UK that

0:45:590:46:06

has continuously played such an

important role in our national

0:46:060:46:09

defence continues to do so going

forward.

I welcome the statement.

0:46:090:46:14

The cyber threat we face today is

novel and unprecedented and I

0:46:140:46:19

welcome his presence in the

statement but it is not simply about

0:46:190:46:24

state and non-state actors hacking

infrastructure and businesses, it is

0:46:240:46:27

about the spread of disinformation.

I wonder if he could set a little

0:46:270:46:32

bit about what consideration the

review will give to that new way of

0:46:320:46:35

reaching directly to our citizens.

Well, the national security adviser

0:46:350:46:42

is leading on much of this so I

would not want to pinch other

0:46:420:46:47

aspects of the national security and

capability review. I would also

0:46:470:46:50

struggle to get away outlining some

of the things we wish to do without

0:46:500:46:57

breaching national security. If my

honourable friend will forgive me

0:46:570:47:01

for evading his question...

I thank

the Minister for his statement and

0:47:010:47:07

for his promise of a review.

Recruitment has fallen to such an

0:47:070:47:12

extent that more personal now leave

town are recruited. They tell me

0:47:120:47:20

that reopening the Army recruitment

offices in the high street would

0:47:200:47:25

help. Could I ask, would he as a

matter of urgency considered the

0:47:250:47:32

reintroduction of high-street

recruitment centres to increase the

0:47:320:47:35

numbers and delivered the defence

modernisation around the soldiers

0:47:350:47:37

recruited?

That is an option we are

looking at and we have seen an

0:47:370:47:43

uptake in the number of people who

are blind to -- who are applying to

0:47:430:47:51

join the British Army, we're happy

to look at all ideas to make sure we

0:47:510:47:54

get the right number of people to

join the armed services so we can

0:47:540:47:57

fill the numbers to operate

effectively.

I would like to take

0:47:570:48:05

this opportunity to wish you a very

happy Burns Night. I am addressing a

0:48:050:48:11

Burns supper and when I stand up,

will I be able to confirm this

0:48:110:48:15

review will remain in the sole

command of the Secretary of State

0:48:150:48:18

and that in conducting the review he

and his staff are fully aware of the

0:48:180:48:22

critical importance the senior

services capabilities of which there

0:48:220:48:26

has been some concern of late,

especially the amphibious

0:48:260:48:31

capabilities?

I can give very clear

confirmation this will remain in the

0:48:310:48:34

hands of the MOD. We are driving

this review, this programme of

0:48:340:48:38

modernisation. The Prime Minister

and everyone thinks it is right for

0:48:380:48:43

the ready to do this. The first time

we have done it in this way since

0:48:430:48:47

2010. I hope that as part of this we

will get the right answers as part

0:48:470:48:51

of the work we are doing.

Point of

order. Doctor Julian Lewis.

Thank

0:48:510:48:58

you. What a delight it is to see you

back in the chair. Have IVU or Mr

0:48:580:49:07

Speaker been given notice by the

Chancellor of the Exchequer that in

0:49:070:49:12

view of the important call by the

former Secretary of State for

0:49:120:49:17

Defence for 2.5% of GDP to be spent

on defence that he will be coming to

0:49:170:49:22

this Chamber in order to announce an

increase in the defence budget so

0:49:220:49:27

that the present Secretary of State

for Defence and put it to good use?

0:49:270:49:31

-- have you or the secretary of

defence. What I can say is, the good

0:49:310:49:44

thing is, it will be on the record,

and I'm sure they will be coming to

0:49:440:49:47

let you know what the outcome be

very shortly. I am grateful. It is

0:49:470:49:53

very good to see you back in your

place. It was July, 2017, when the

0:49:530:50:00

Prime Minister announced there was

to be a public inquiry into the

0:50:000:50:03

contaminated blood scandal, the

worst in the NHS. It is now near the

0:50:030:50:10

end of January, 2018, and we still

do not have a chair or terms of

0:50:100:50:15

reference or any indication when the

public inquiry will be established.

0:50:150:50:19

I wondered if you had been given any

indication from the Government about

0:50:190:50:24

a statement or announcement about

what will happen next with this

0:50:240:50:31

long-awaited public inquiry?

I can

assure you I have been given no

0:50:310:50:34

indication. She will certainly take

up other news to pursue it. It is on

0:50:340:50:40

the record, it is an important

matter and I'm sure the Government

0:50:400:50:45

will look at it -- take up other

avenues.

A pleasure to see you back

0:50:450:50:50

in your place. Following the

statement we have just had, many

0:50:500:50:55

members here today and not here

today feel deeply aggrieved at the

0:50:550:50:59

way it has been handled. You will

know about the shenanigans yesterday

0:50:590:51:04

of the statement being ordered off

several times. Worse than that, at a

0:51:040:51:10

debate yesterday morning, the

Minister of State sat to the left of

0:51:100:51:14

the Secretary of State right now

shoring members that the debate that

0:51:140:51:17

the statement would not be happening

this week, but next week. I was

0:51:170:51:22

given an assurance by the Leader of

the House that it would be happening

0:51:220:51:26

next week. Whilst I welcome the fact

it has come earlier, the way they

0:51:260:51:29

have tried to jiggery pokery this

around has been deeply unedifying

0:51:290:51:34

and discourteous to members of the

House. Can you give an assurance

0:51:340:51:39

this will not happen again from the

MoD and can you advise members how

0:51:390:51:44

we can ensure that when they come to

report in July, as they hope to do,

0:51:440:51:49

that the same thing does not happen

so they trick members into thinking

0:51:490:51:53

the statement is not forthcoming

when it actually has been?

It is not

0:51:530:51:59

for the chair to decide when the

statement will come. It is up to the

0:51:590:52:03

Secretary of State when they decide

to do that. I recognise there has

0:52:030:52:08

been a lot of frustration, I am sure

that will have been taken on board,

0:52:080:52:12

and I am sure usual channels can't

begin to have a conversation to try

0:52:120:52:16

to work to ensure all parties do not

feel aggrieved and I'm sure it has

0:52:160:52:21

been taken on board and I can assure

you it is not for the chair to

0:52:210:52:25

decide when the statement will come

-- I am sure the usual channels can

0:52:250:52:30

begin. I'm sure it was not done

deliberately.

The come back again, I

0:52:300:52:37

do happen to know that there was a

strong wish on the part of the

0:52:370:52:44

Secretary of State for Defence and

his team to have made this statement

0:52:440:52:48

yesterday and the only reason it was

not made was so as not to cut into

0:52:480:52:53

opposition day time. I do think that

should be borne in mind.

I do not

0:52:530:52:58

want to pursue the debate, I know

there were various discussions

0:52:580:53:00

yesterday. In the end, the statement

came today and what I would say is,

0:53:000:53:08

I do not want to get into how it was

arrived at, that is something that

0:53:080:53:12

was done behind and quite rightly

with Mr Speaker, it is where we are

0:53:120:53:18

at now, I will not pursue it in any

other way, the statement has been

0:53:180:53:21

heard, move on from that. OK. Right,

we now come to select committee

0:53:210:53:28

statement. Mr Bernard Jenkin will

speak for up to ten minutes during

0:53:280:53:32

which no interventions may be taken.

At the conclusion, I will call

0:53:320:53:36

members to put questions on the

subject of the statement and called

0:53:360:53:40

Mr Bernard Jenkin to respond in

turn. Members can expect to be

0:53:400:53:44

called only once and

interventions... Order. Minister. I

0:53:440:53:56

am in the middle of the statement.

Not further your colleagues. Please,

0:53:560:54:00

show a little more respect. Members

can expect to be called only once.

0:54:000:54:07

Interventions should be questions

and three. The front bench might

0:54:070:54:10

take part in questioning. I call the

chair of the committee.

Overseeing

0:54:100:54:21

the UK's changing constitution and

the efficacy of the civil service.

0:54:210:54:28

Within that, it covers matters of

ethics and propriety in Whitehall

0:54:280:54:33

overseeing the work of the Committee

on Standards in Public Life, the

0:54:330:54:37

ministerial code, the civil service

code and the work of the advisory

0:54:370:54:42

committee on business appointments,

known as Acoba, when they take up

0:54:420:54:53

outside appointments. Pacac has to

find its overriding purpose as

0:54:530:54:57

being, I'll quote, to conduct robust

and effective scrutiny to help

0:54:570:55:02

create conditions whether public can

have justified confidence in public

0:55:020:55:06

and government. In that context,

just before the election, in April,

0:55:060:55:13

2017, a new report was published

entitled managing ministers and

0:55:130:55:17

officials conflicts of interests,

time for clearer values, principles

0:55:170:55:24

and action. This followed a report

published in 2012 by our predecessor

0:55:240:55:28

committee which recommended

replacing the existing rules with a

0:55:280:55:35

statutory system. The main

recommendations of that report and

0:55:350:55:39

of our more recent 2017 report have

been flatly rejected by the

0:55:390:55:43

Government. I'm afraid many people

believe this to be hopelessly

0:55:430:55:46

complacent. PACAC is therefore

announcing in a supplementary report

0:55:460:55:52

published today that we intend to

hold a further inquiry into these

0:55:520:55:56

matters. The way we manage conflicts

of interest arising where former

0:55:560:56:01

ministers and crown servants leave

the Government to take up jobs

0:56:010:56:03

elsewhere really matters. There is a

constant stream of embarrassing

0:56:030:56:10

stories in the media about the

so-called revolving door between

0:56:100:56:14

employment in the public and private

sector, suggesting that people must

0:56:140:56:18

use the advantage of a job in

government to get lucrative jobs

0:56:180:56:22

outside. While many of these stories

may be unfair, this is deeply

0:56:220:56:27

corrosive of public trust in our

system of democracy and government

0:56:270:56:31

because the present system of

oversight fails to provide adequate

0:56:310:56:34

assurance. For example, I name only

one department as an example, but it

0:56:340:56:41

includes every department, the

constant flow of MoD civil servants

0:56:410:56:44

and senior officers from the Armed

Forces who finish up working in the

0:56:440:56:49

defence industry, a similar

situation occurs in other

0:56:490:56:52

departments. Nobody should assume

that there is automatically anything

0:56:520:56:55

wrong with this, but there needs to

be an adequate system of assurance

0:56:550:57:00

that there is indeed nothing wrong

and that we are not fostering and

0:57:000:57:05

over permissive attitude. The

expectation of many people, even of

0:57:050:57:08

some ministers, is that this is the

new normal and everybody does it. We

0:57:080:57:13

acknowledge and I pay tribute to the

hard work of the ACOBA board, the

0:57:130:57:19

chair, the secretary at, but both

2017 and 2012 reports can only be

0:57:190:57:26

described as a excoriating. In 2017,

they concluded, ACOBA in its current

0:57:260:57:32

form is a toothless regulator which

has failed to change the environment

0:57:320:57:36

around business appointments. That

is because ACOBA lacks power,

0:57:360:57:42

resources and its remit is much too

limited. It is not a regulator,

0:57:420:57:48

merely advisory, with no sanctions

for noncompliance and there are

0:57:480:57:52

regular instances of business

appointment rules being ignored.

0:57:520:58:03

We actually have little idea of the

scale of noncompliance. This has got

0:58:030:58:08

worse since the Government removed

Acoba's responsibility to report and

0:58:080:58:15

more on the from below DD3 in 2010.

Departments are meant to post half

0:58:150:58:23

yearly data on their websites to

show when advice is given to

0:58:230:58:27

applicants. But this data has become

patchy. We just don't know how many

0:58:270:58:34

servants below SS3 level who have

performed important roles end up in

0:58:340:58:42

a position to draw an insight

information on their Government

0:58:420:58:46

contacts after they leave the civil

servant. In the period between the

0:58:460:58:51

reports the challenge has escalated

with increased numbers of public

0:58:510:58:55

servants and ministers moving

between the private and public

0:58:550:59:00

sectors. A personal observation is

that the magazine Private Eye, who

0:59:000:59:12

whom we took evidence frequently

appears to do a better business

0:59:120:59:16

policing the rules than the advisory

committee itself. It is essential

0:59:160:59:20

that steps are taken to ensure that

the Acoba system is swiftly

0:59:200:59:26

improved. In the more recent report

we set out recommendations in

0:59:260:59:31

relation to how it could be done

without result to statute. Although

0:59:310:59:35

we recommend that a cost benefit

analysis of statutory regulation

0:59:350:59:41

should be rejected. It has been

rejected on the basis it will be too

0:59:410:59:47

costly but they refuse to do the

cost benefit analysis. It

0:59:470:59:49

recommended that the Government

should be provided with the powers

0:59:490:59:53

necessary to enforce compliance with

the rules and there should be a

0:59:530:59:58

substantial increase in transparency

regarding Acoba's decision and

0:59:581:00:01

departments. Applications should be

published on receipt, not just those

1:00:011:00:07

which are approved and indeed that

might reduce a lot of their

1:00:071:00:12

unnecessary workload.

Most important, the business

1:00:121:00:16

appointment rules should be

fundamentally changed. A system to

1:00:161:00:19

manage conflicts of interest should

be more than codes and declarations.

1:00:191:00:25

If it is effectively taught by

leaders and learned by everyone to

1:00:251:00:30

be intrinsic to public service would

create a new and different

1:00:301:00:35

expectations that individuals will

act with integrity encouraging

1:00:351:00:39

people to regulate their own

behaviour and attitude according to

1:00:391:00:42

those principals. Our report

recommends a change of emphasis in

1:00:421:00:46

the Ministerial Code and the civil

service code to highlight the

1:00:461:00:51

principals which should guide

behaviour. We need to instil

1:00:511:00:56

decisions. We believe this combined

with the independent checks could

1:00:561:01:02

foster a substantial improvement in

attitudes and behaviours. The

1:01:021:01:06

Government responded that the

essence of these principals and

1:01:061:01:08

values are embedded in the code but

they are not ex-police tick enough.

1:01:081:01:14

-- explicit enough. We need a change

of heart, a change of system

1:01:141:01:19

otherwise public confidence will

continue to be eroded.

1:01:191:01:23

That ening you, Mr Deputy Speaker.

Can I chang the honourable gentleman

1:01:231:01:30

for the powerful report he's made.

On this side we are committed to

1:01:301:01:33

bring this issue to the top of the

political agenda and seek reform as

1:01:331:01:38

not a week goes by without the

exposure of some conflict of

1:01:381:01:41

interest within the heart of

Government. So bearing in mind his

1:01:411:01:44

statement and report does the chair

of the Select Committee agree with

1:01:441:01:47

me that the report raises serious

questions of governance and confirms

1:01:471:01:50

this is a Government of the few by

the few and for the few?

I will

1:01:501:01:58

leave aside the sound bite that came

at the end of his question. But the

1:01:581:02:03

substance of his remark is correct.

That the system is inadequate. It

1:02:031:02:08

needs to be strengthened and

reformed and I am delighted that Her

1:02:081:02:13

Majesty's official opposition will

take an interest in this matter.

1:02:131:02:20

Thank you very much. We agree the

business appointment rules should be

1:02:261:02:32

strengthened and we are disappointed

with the Government's response. As

1:02:321:02:36

Burns would have said, I wouldn't

give a button for it. Would he agree

1:02:361:02:42

that Private Eye recognise this

resolving door in Government smacks,

1:02:421:02:48

in the Government res'ses upon to

this evident problem that their

1:02:481:02:54

response smacks of complacency and

self-interest? Would he agree there

1:02:541:02:59

is little respect for Acoba and

would he agree if nothing is done by

1:02:591:03:03

Government and by this House to

strengthen the business appointment

1:03:031:03:07

rules it will undermine trust in

politics?

Our report does mention

1:03:071:03:15

George Osborne as, in two respects,

first of all that it was striking

1:03:151:03:22

and starting that Acoba appeared to

give a blank cheque to the former

1:03:221:03:27

Chancellor to join black rock at a

very, very inflated salary. So

1:03:271:03:34

shortly after he had left his office

as Chancellor of the Exchequer. And

1:03:341:03:41

George Osborne also completely by

passed the appointment as editor of

1:03:411:03:47

The Evening Standard prior to

accepting his appointment, and we

1:03:471:03:51

regard this as a very glaring

example, not necessarily to the

1:03:511:03:59

dishonour of any particular

individual but of how the system

1:03:591:04:03

fails to command public confidence.

Mr Deputy Speaker may I join others

1:04:031:04:10

in welcoming you to your place? May

I thank the honourable member for

1:04:101:04:15

his work in bringing these affairs

to the attention of the House today.

1:04:151:04:19

May I simply, may I simply encourage

members who are present here today

1:04:191:04:23

if they have not done so to look at

the Government response which has

1:04:231:04:26

been laid in response to the

committee's report in which we

1:04:261:04:30

clearly state that the Government is

committed to maintaining the highest

1:04:301:04:34

standards of conduct for ministers

and civil servants including special

1:04:341:04:38

advisers and the rules and

procedures we have in place we

1:04:381:04:42

believe are proportionate anded a

Kuwait. We look forward to, working

1:04:421:04:46

-- and adequate. We look forward to

working with the committee.

1:04:461:04:52

I first of all welcome my honourable

friend back to the front bench in

1:04:521:04:56

her position in the Cabinet Office.

To which she brings considerable

1:04:561:05:01

experience and indeed some

experience of this issue. I have to

1:05:011:05:07

express my disappointment of the

response that the Government tabled.

1:05:071:05:12

I mean there were some acceptances

of some minor amendments. But to

1:05:121:05:19

regard this, a system, as the

highest example of regulation and

1:05:191:05:25

openness, when it simply does not

deliver the public confidence that

1:05:251:05:29

we wish, I appreciate this is a

vexed issue and that we don't want

1:05:291:05:34

to deter people coming into this the

public service if they feel they

1:05:341:05:37

will be unfairly treated on the way

out.

1:05:371:05:42

But the present arrangements are not

adequate and even to refuse, putting

1:05:421:05:49

more explicitly into the Ministerial

Code words such as we recommend, you

1:05:491:05:53

must take decisions in the public

interest alone, you must never allow

1:05:531:05:57

yourself to be influenced in

contract and procurement regulation

1:05:571:06:02

or advice by your career

expectations or prospects if you

1:06:021:06:06

leave the public service. You must

not take up any post outside in

1:06:061:06:11

business or commercial operations op

rating in areas you have been

1:06:111:06:15

directly responsible. I don't

understand why these things can not

1:06:151:06:19

be put explicitly in the Ministerial

Code in order that they should be

1:06:191:06:24

talked about and understood and it

should change the attitudes that are

1:06:241:06:29

unfortunately pervading much of

ministers, special ministers and

1:06:291:06:33

civil servants in Whitehall.

Doesn't

the conduct of the Government in, on

1:06:331:06:40

this report re-enforce the public

view that we hear acting in our own

1:06:401:06:44

private interests and not in the

public interests. And isn't it

1:06:441:06:49

significant that a Prime Minister

who has not lifted a finger in

1:06:491:06:55

answer to the pleas for reform, to

jam the resolving door during the

1:06:551:07:00

period of office, have now taken

advantage of that period of office

1:07:001:07:03

to take a job with Chinese, with

whom he worked in Government, and

1:07:031:07:09

can the chair of the committee

explain to us why the invitation to

1:07:091:07:16

George Osborne to come to the

committee, to explain why he had

1:07:161:07:22

five meetings with Black Rock, he

altered the law in their favour and

1:07:221:07:27

when he lost his office took a job

with them for £6 50,000 for a

1:07:271:07:35

one-day week's work. If that is not

an example of the use of the

1:07:351:07:40

revolving door, it is hard to see

what is. We have a shameful record

1:07:401:07:47

and the public, perhaps the chair

would agree, will regard this with

1:07:471:07:52

contempt, rightly in the future, as

not being fit to police our own

1:07:521:07:57

affairs.

Sadly, I agree with my honourable,

1:07:571:08:03

with the honourable gentleman, who

is a member of my committee and who

1:08:031:08:06

has been very instrumental in

drawing the committee's attention to

1:08:061:08:10

these issues and I would almost

describe him as the conscience of

1:08:101:08:13

the committee on this issue.

And long may he continue to

1:08:131:08:17

encourage us in this work. As he

knows, it is not the practise of the

1:08:171:08:24

committee to prosecute individual

cases. I think we should resist

1:08:241:08:26

that.

Because I think it would divert

1:08:261:08:30

attention from the substance of the

work that we need to undertake. I

1:08:301:08:37

actually am quite pleased about how

obviously carefully drafted the

1:08:371:08:42

Government's response is to our

report, because I think that the

1:08:421:08:45

points we are making in our report

are having a telling effect. Though

1:08:451:08:49

we have a long way to go and that's

why he's been one of those

1:08:491:08:54

encouraging the committee to

encourage this, pursuing this

1:08:541:08:56

subject with a further enquiry. I

thank him for his work for the

1:08:561:09:00

committee.

THE SPEAKER: Now we come to joint

1:09:001:09:06

enterprise.

Understanding orders it is usually

1:09:061:09:09

around 15 minutes.

Thank you very much, Mr Deputy

1:09:091:09:14

Speaker. May I first of all welcome

you back to our place in the chair

1:09:141:09:19

today. I am sure the whole House

will join me in wishing you and your

1:09:191:09:25

family all the best. I know it's

been a very difficult few weeks for

1:09:251:09:29

you. Can I also thank the Backbench

Business Committee for agreeing the

1:09:291:09:35

application for this important

debate. And to The Right Honourable

1:09:351:09:39

and honourable members who supported

the application, particularly the

1:09:391:09:46

members for Sutton #k08d field,

Bromley and can Chislehurst and

1:09:461:09:50

Tottenham, as they lead members. I

would like to thank the families and

1:09:501:09:54

campaigners on joint exercise. Many

of whom are in the public gallery

1:09:541:09:58

today and who have never given up

their fight for justice for their

1:09:581:10:02

loved ones. So why this debate today

and now? Nearly two years to the day

1:10:021:10:09

since the Supreme Court made a

landmark ruling tha the law had

1:10:091:10:14

taken a wrong turn, followed many

years of campaigning with

1:10:141:10:19

high-profile and documentaries such

as Common by Jimmy McGovern. Since

1:10:191:10:25

that time nothing of substance has

actually changed. The campaigners

1:10:251:10:29

leading up to that highlighted how

particularly in murder cases

1:10:291:10:35

secondary parties were often

receiving mandatory life sentences

1:10:351:10:39

for lesser or no significant part in

the crime than the principal. And

1:10:391:10:44

that the evidential bar in many

cases is much lower threshold than

1:10:441:10:50

would normally apply to murder,

particularly that the secondary

1:10:501:10:54

parties might have foreseen the

actions of others and intended or

1:10:541:11:01

have knowingly foreseen. At the time

of the Supreme Court ruling,

1:11:011:11:06

campaigners, parliamentarians and

others viewed this ruling as a

1:11:061:11:09

victory and had confidence that the

injustices of the past would be put

1:11:091:11:13

right. And the use of joint

enterprise going forward would be

1:11:131:11:17

more limited. However, two years on

from the Supreme Court ruling and it

1:11:171:11:23

feels increasingly like a victory,

with no case from the 30 years of

1:11:231:11:28

the wrong law being applied, having

yet been awarded an appeal and many

1:11:281:11:32

new cases with all the hallmarks of

the old cases being successfully

1:11:321:11:37

prosecuted.

I shall give way to...

Can I thank

1:11:371:11:44

my honourable friend and

congratulate her on this debate on

1:11:441:11:47

this really difficult issue, which

is not a small issue. Would she

1:11:471:11:52

agree 4,500 people are currently in

prison caught under the wrongful

1:11:521:11:58

application of joint enterprise laws

omen, women and children, who are

1:11:581:12:02

serving long sentences for crimes

they did not commit?

I would fully

1:12:021:12:06

agree with the point made by my

honourable friend there. In fact we

1:12:061:12:10

know that it's at least that sort of

figure and we don't have the

1:12:101:12:14

accurate figures.

Before she moves

on, can I congratulate her on this

1:12:141:12:20

debate. It is a crucial issue. An

All Party Parliamentary Group on

1:12:201:12:27

miscarriages of justice, it has this

as a high priority. On a particular

1:12:271:12:32

case, Alex Hendry is of great

important because I chair the autism

1:12:321:12:35

commission. There are seven people

in this ghastly predicament on the

1:12:351:12:42

autism spectrum and that has been

taken out of account.

1:12:421:12:45

I know the family are here today, of

that case, and it has many of the

1:12:481:12:55

hallmarks we will come on to

discuss. We are seeing the new

1:12:551:12:58

generation of joint enterprise

lifers in prison. The Supreme Court

1:12:581:13:04

said it was, I quote, the

responsibility of the court to put

1:13:041:13:08

them all right. But many of us have

come to the conclusion the criminal

1:13:081:13:12

justice will not and is not writing

itself in relation to a joint

1:13:121:13:18

enterprise and that we need to act.

That is why MPs from across the

1:13:181:13:23

House have joined together today so

we can send a strong signal to the

1:13:231:13:28

Government and the prosecutors that

the way we are continuing to apply

1:13:281:13:32

the law and the incredibly high bar

set for the previous... I will give

1:13:321:13:37

way in a moment. The previous unsafe

convictions to be heard, it needs

1:13:371:13:42

re-dress. I will give way briefly to

both my colleagues.

I am grateful

1:13:421:13:49

and I congratulate her on bringing

this very important subject to the

1:13:491:13:53

floor of the House of Commons. I

have had reason to represent one of

1:13:531:13:57

my constituents who was convicted

and sentenced to 31 years under

1:13:571:14:03

joint enterprise. He was doubly

punished recently because he was not

1:14:031:14:09

allowed to go to his grandmother's

funeral, not because of anything he

1:14:091:14:13

had done wrong, but because Greater

Manchester Police thought he may

1:14:131:14:17

become a victim, a double

punishment. Isn't the real problem

1:14:171:14:24

with joint enterprise that people

are punished and sentenced to long

1:14:241:14:31

prison sentence of over 30 years for

actions they did not carry out

1:14:311:14:37

themselves?

I would agree

wholeheartedly with my colleague. I

1:14:371:14:39

will take one more intervention and

then make some progress.

I am very

1:14:391:14:44

grateful to my honourable friend

forgiving way and I just try to read

1:14:441:14:47

the comments. Very good to see you

back in your place. Two questions.

1:14:471:14:55

One following pack made by our

honourable friend, looking at the

1:14:551:15:00

statistics, 37% of those serving

long sentences for joint enterprise

1:15:001:15:04

of blacks, 11 times the proportion

of black people in the proportion,

1:15:041:15:10

and also if you're mixed race,

similarly disproportionate figures

1:15:101:15:14

which I think underlines why it is

absolutely essential we have the

1:15:141:15:18

review that my honourable friend has

called for in the motion today which

1:15:181:15:22

I fully support. Secondly, surely we

are seeing a case, given the

1:15:221:15:29

uncertainty here, where the courts

are in effect acting as legislators.

1:15:291:15:35

That is wrong. Where there is

uncertainty in the law, it is for

1:15:351:15:38

this House to tidy up, particularly

when it is visiting injustice.

I

1:15:381:15:44

wholeheartedly agree with his

sentiment and I will come on to

1:15:441:15:49

address some of that in my speech.

With hundreds of what is known as

1:15:491:15:55

lifers in prison convicted under

what the Supreme Court viewed as a

1:15:551:15:59

wrong application of the law, this

is potentially one of the biggest

1:15:591:16:03

and most widespread miscarriages of

justice ever to face our justice

1:16:031:16:08

system and as such, I fear that the

cosy club of the criminal justice

1:16:081:16:14

establishment is closing in on

itself to prevent this from fully

1:16:141:16:17

ever being exposed. What is joint

enterprise? Joint enterprise has

1:16:171:16:22

been applied in cases for over 300

years although it is a common law

1:16:221:16:27

which has never been passed by

Parliament. The doctrine allows for

1:16:271:16:29

more than one person to be charged

with the same offence, despite the

1:16:291:16:33

fact they may have played a

different or no role in the crime.

1:16:331:16:38

Joint enterprise applies to all

crimes but in recent years it has

1:16:381:16:41

been particularly used as a way to

prosecute murder. Especially but not

1:16:411:16:46

exclusively in cases involving

groups of young men. This is

1:16:461:16:50

obviously a very emotive issue

particularly for families of murder

1:16:501:16:54

victims. And no one is suggesting

that those who commit murder or

1:16:541:16:58

knowingly and intentionally

assisting committing murder should

1:16:581:17:02

not face the full force of the law.

However, nor should the evidential

1:17:021:17:07

bar for serious offences like murder

be lower by virtue of presents or

1:17:071:17:13

association with the principal

offender, as we have all too often

1:17:131:17:18

seen. Indeed there are many cases

and I'm sure many of these will come

1:17:181:17:21

to light today where people are

serving life sentences when it is

1:17:211:17:26

clear they did not commit murder but

they were found guilty under the old

1:17:261:17:30

or Ron Lock of parasitic process at

Oriel liability. Furthermore, many

1:17:301:17:39

others are convicted as second party

is carrying the same sentences as

1:17:391:17:43

the principal based on a prosecution

narrative of gang and association,

1:17:431:17:47

even though in tent and foresight

are unproven and where the secondary

1:17:471:17:52

party was not physically present at

the scene or withdrew from the

1:17:521:17:57

scene. There is a further flaw in

how the doctrine is applied when one

1:17:571:18:01

looks at the profile of those

convicted of murder. The majority

1:18:011:18:06

are of black and ethnic minority

backgrounds and the vast majority

1:18:061:18:10

are young with many teenagers

serving life for a secondary or

1:18:101:18:15

parasitic role. I will say more

about this, as will others, later,

1:18:151:18:21

but we have to ask questions about

the disproportionate use of such

1:18:211:18:26

doctrines within certain

communities. There is also a

1:18:261:18:30

political context which is relevant

to this debate today. I will briefly

1:18:301:18:33

give way.

I am so grateful to my

honourable friend. Does she

1:18:331:18:37

recognise that in those communities

where 14, 16, 19-year-olds have gone

1:18:371:18:46

to prison for significant time when

it is absolutely clear to the

1:18:461:18:50

community they have not committed

murder, and is in her community,

1:18:501:18:54

what it actually does, it undermines

the sense of the justice system in

1:18:541:18:59

the black community, less people

cooperate with the release, less

1:18:591:19:03

people have faith in the justice

system, and it undermines all she is

1:19:031:19:06

attempting to do?

I am hoping to

give everybody ten minutes, the

1:19:061:19:12

danger is, I will have to drop it,

if you intervene.

I fully agree with

1:19:121:19:18

what the honourable member said. I

will try to make some progress.

1:19:181:19:22

There is a political context, there

was when the law began to be

1:19:221:19:26

overused and extended in its use in

the 1990s, but there is also a

1:19:261:19:32

different political context today,

as my honourable friend has just

1:19:321:19:35

said. We know more clearly

understand the consequences of the

1:19:351:19:39

disproportionate and unfair

replications of the law against

1:19:391:19:42

certain groups and I was pleased to

see the Government did recognise

1:19:421:19:46

some of this when they launched the

limey review and the Prime

1:19:461:19:54

Minister's recent comments about

burning injustices -- the Lammy

1:19:541:19:57

review. I hope the Prime Minister

can live up to the rhetoric. The

1:19:571:20:01

practice under law have been far too

slow to catch up with the changing

1:20:011:20:07

mood in the country -- the practice

and the law. I will look at what the

1:20:071:20:11

Supreme Court ruling did and did not

say and what needs to be addressed.

1:20:111:20:15

The ruling was clear that the law

governing secondary liability had

1:20:151:20:19

taken a wrong turn and it had

resulted in the erroneous

1:20:191:20:24

application of the law. However, it

also set out that in order for

1:20:241:20:28

appeals to be heard out of time, a

substantial injustice test, not the

1:20:281:20:33

usual unsafe conviction test, would

be applied. The substantial

1:20:331:20:38

injustice test was not clearly set

out and has never been set out by

1:20:381:20:44

this Parliament and subsequently it

has been tested through caselaw and

1:20:441:20:48

it is now almost impossibly high bar

for people to pass. That is why

1:20:481:20:53

there has yet to be a single

successful appeal awarded by the

1:20:531:20:57

Court of Appeal nearly two years on.

Thirdly and finally, in our opinion,

1:20:571:21:03

the Supreme Court failed to address

another question put before it which

1:21:031:21:08

is, does joint enterprise over

criminalise secondary parties? What

1:21:081:21:11

needs to change in the law? Firstly,

what needs to change going forward,

1:21:111:21:16

and secondly, how can we put right

some of the injustices of the past?

1:21:161:21:21

Going forward, what is clear is that

joint enterprise continues to be

1:21:211:21:31

overused and is disproportionately

used against groups of young men,

1:21:311:21:33

particularly those from black and

ethnic minority backgrounds. I saw

1:21:331:21:35

this first hand at a recent case in

Moss Side were 11 young black men

1:21:351:21:39

from that area faced charges of

murder. Seven of those were

1:21:391:21:46

convicted of murder and four of

manslaughter, the youngest of which

1:21:461:21:50

was only 14 and many of them were

not previously known to the police.

1:21:501:21:55

As research by the Manchester

Metropolitan University has shown in

1:21:551:21:59

their study, dangerous liaisons,

over half of all of those serving

1:21:591:22:05

joint enterprise life sentences are

children or Young adults and over

1:22:051:22:09

half are from black and ethnic

minority backgrounds. I will have to

1:22:091:22:13

make some progress. I'm sure someone

else will give way later. The

1:22:131:22:21

extensive research also found the

establishment of a gang narrative

1:22:211:22:25

which often relies on neighbourhood

narratives and racialised

1:22:251:22:28

assumptions and by loose

associations and things such as

1:22:281:22:34

social media tags and videos, they

have been critical step to security

1:22:341:22:42

-- critical to securing many joint

enterprise convictions. This is why

1:22:421:22:46

my honourable friend has raised this

in his review and the Home Affairs

1:22:461:22:49

Select Committee is looking into it.

Joint enterprise cases continue post

1:22:491:22:56

the Supreme Court ruling, albeit

under new CPS guidance, but I think

1:22:561:23:01

that remains problematic. Three

areas we want the Government to look

1:23:011:23:05

at the future cases.

Proportionality, and is this being

1:23:051:23:08

used correctly and

disproportionately against certain

1:23:081:23:12

groups? We asked the government to

do what the Supreme Court failed to

1:23:121:23:15

do which is establish whether joint

enterprise over criminalise the

1:23:151:23:20

secondary parties. Related to this,

we need the data. This is urgent,

1:23:201:23:25

collating the data about who is

being charged, convicted and where

1:23:251:23:29

and this is long overdue. Finally,

the long-awaited outcome of the

1:23:291:23:35

review of the CPS guidance needs to

be brought forward and quickly and

1:23:351:23:39

it must include clearer guidance for

prosecution discretion so that

1:23:391:23:43

lesser offences can be brought

against secondary parties in many of

1:23:431:23:54

these cases. The final point I want

to make is about the retrospective

1:23:541:23:56

cases and putting right the

injustices of the past. We are not

1:23:561:23:59

asking for automatic reopening of

every single case. It is right there

1:23:591:24:02

must be a test but this test is now

so impossibly high that no cases

1:24:021:24:07

have successfully been heard by the

Court of Appeal and the criminal

1:24:071:24:12

cases review commission has yet to

recommend a single case coming back.

1:24:121:24:17

Despite having received 99 fresh

applications and reviewing 90 more.

1:24:171:24:22

Appeal judges seem utterly

dismissive of these cases. Unlike in

1:24:221:24:28

the usual appeal case where the

threshold is the possibility of an

1:24:281:24:32

unsafe conviction, applicants in the

case of the wrong law of joint

1:24:321:24:36

enterprise are also required to

demonstrate that as well as being

1:24:361:24:39

unsafe, the correct law, they also

have to show that they would have

1:24:391:24:45

been a substantial difference to the

outcome. In most of the cases this

1:24:451:24:48

would simply be there may have been

done so. We believe the substantial

1:24:481:24:56

injustice test needs establishing by

Parliament in law and it should make

1:24:561:24:58

clear that the threshold is may and

not wood. We think the Appeal Courts

1:24:581:25:06

should be allowed to consider the

ongoing effect of the conviction on

1:25:061:25:11

the applicant and critically take

account of the applicant's age,

1:25:111:25:14

mental health and other

vulnerabilities. The old or wrongful

1:25:141:25:20

sight test now applied correctly to

adolescence or those suffering with

1:25:201:25:25

learning or mental difficulties

would surely provide a substantial

1:25:251:25:29

change to their conviction and today

we would not expect an immature

1:25:291:25:33

teenager or someone with learning

difficulties to understand the old

1:25:331:25:37

week for site test. I want the

government to urgently consider a

1:25:371:25:44

mechanism for clarifying the

threshold about these cases. To be

1:25:441:25:49

clear, this is not about reopening

the floodgates, but if the law had

1:25:491:25:52

been wrong for 30 years during which

time hundreds if not thousands of

1:25:521:25:57

mandatory life sentences were handed

out under this old wrong law, it

1:25:571:26:02

stands to reason that at least some,

not a tiny few, of the cases are

1:26:021:26:07

clear injustice which the courts are

currently failing to put right. In

1:26:071:26:13

conclusion, we can all agree I think

here today in this House that the

1:26:131:26:17

law did indeed take a wrong turn.

Now that needs putting right. The

1:26:171:26:24

establishment is evidently not

putting itself right. So government

1:26:241:26:28

and Parliament need to act. We

urgently need a review of the use

1:26:281:26:33

and scope of prosecutions brought

under joint enterprise, particularly

1:26:331:26:37

its disproportionate use against

young and black and ethnic minority

1:26:371:26:40

men, and we also need urgent

clarification on the qualification

1:26:401:26:45

for appeal so we can put right

decades of substantial injustices

1:26:451:26:50

and unsafe convictions leading to

many serving life sentences for

1:26:501:26:53

murder as they did not commit.

The

question is as on the order paper

1:26:531:26:59

with a ten minute limit, Andrew

Mitchell. I welcome you back to your

1:26:591:27:07

chair. I congratulate the honourable

lady for securing this debate and I

1:27:071:27:11

thank Mr Speaker and the backbench

committee for granting it. I draw

1:27:111:27:14

the House's attention to my outside

interests are set out in the

1:27:141:27:18

register. We are holding this debate

today because we know thousands of

1:27:181:27:23

people have been prosecuted under

joint enterprise over the last

1:27:231:27:27

decade alone with a profound fear

that some of these convictions are

1:27:271:27:31

unsound. I'm deeply conscious that

behind each of these crimes lies a

1:27:311:27:36

victim, usually murdered, with

grieving loved ones whose lives have

1:27:361:27:39

been changed forever and ruined. My

heart goes out to all of those and

1:27:391:27:45

their families who have suffered in

that way.

1:27:451:27:51

We also know there is a wealth of

evidence that suggests that joint

1:27:511:27:55

enterprise has both convicted people

in error, and wholly

1:27:551:28:00

disproportionately affected those

who identify as black, Asian and

1:28:001:28:03

minority ethnic. Young people from

ethnic communities have essentially

1:28:031:28:06

been hoovered up for peripheral and

some cases nonexistent involvement

1:28:061:28:13

in serious criminal acts. The

Supreme Court decision in the case

1:28:131:28:21

of Jogi has proved that the previous

interpretation of the law is wrong.

1:28:211:28:29

To date, only a very limited number

of joint enterprise convictions have

1:28:291:28:33

been quashed. To find a defendant

guilty of a criminal offence, a jury

1:28:331:28:40

must be satisfied that the defendant

both committed the crime and had the

1:28:401:28:44

requisite state of mind to carry out

the crime. Yet the law on joint

1:28:441:28:48

enterprise and second reliability

more generally was developed by the

1:28:481:28:52

courts to ensure that all

participants in a criminal

1:28:521:28:54

enterprise could be held

accountable. Indeed, it has been a

1:28:541:28:58

key tool when prosecuting suspected

gang members. There has been a

1:28:581:29:02

failure by our criminal justice

system to distinguish between gangs

1:29:021:29:07

and groups. The house will

understand that not all members of

1:29:071:29:11

groups have a criminal purpose, and

not all members of gangs or groups

1:29:111:29:15

join in when there is an incident.

Humans are by nature social animals.

1:29:151:29:19

People naturally hang about in

groups, teams or protest marches,

1:29:191:29:25

and it does not mean that if an

incident occurs, everyone the group

1:29:251:29:30

intended it to happen. We know how

indiscriminate the law joint

1:29:301:29:35

enterprise has been, and I

congratulate the Right Honourable

1:29:351:29:37

member for Tottenham in the work he

has done in uncovering the outcomes

1:29:371:29:46

for black, Asian and ethnic minority

people. One group has done so much

1:29:461:29:55

good work exposing the inadequacies

of the criminal justice and legal

1:29:551:29:58

system in this respect. I also pay

tribute to the Prime Minister, who

1:29:581:30:03

as Home Secretary, ensured that the

voice of black mental health was

1:30:031:30:05

heard in Government. Mr Deputy

Speaker, it is no accident that the

1:30:051:30:10

bulk of the prison population

convicted under joint enterprise are

1:30:101:30:16

young black, Asian and ethnic

minority men. It is an uneasy and

1:30:161:30:20

difficult truth that an association

may exist consciously or otherwise

1:30:201:30:25

in the mind of police, prosecutors

and jewellery is between being a

1:30:251:30:29

young ethnic minority mail and being

in a gang and therefore being

1:30:291:30:33

involved in urban violence. Such

findings are echoed by studies into

1:30:331:30:35

the ethnic profile prisoners

convicted on the basis of joint

1:30:351:30:40

enterprise. One study found that for

young people convicted under joint

1:30:401:30:46

enterprise, nearly 60% were black,

Asian and minority-owned thing.

1:30:461:30:51

There is no real suspicion that

justice has miscarried in many joint

1:30:511:30:56

enterprise cases. Juries were not

directed, even the serious cases.

1:30:561:31:05

The highest standards of legal

accuracy that we should expect are

1:31:051:31:08

simply not being met. In such cases,

we rightly expect the appeal system

1:31:081:31:13

to function and to function

effectively. Even as recently as

1:31:131:31:17

last year, prosecutors are trying to

find an easy way to convict, as was

1:31:171:31:21

shown by the case of Lewis.

Thankfully, the judge found there

1:31:211:31:26

was no case to answer. The

prosecution appealed that ruling and

1:31:261:31:30

rightly lost. There is now a logjam

in our criminal justice system, with

1:31:301:31:34

the Court of Appeal appearing wrong

later blocked appeals by joint

1:31:341:31:39

enterprise prisoners. The burden of

the substantial injustice test to

1:31:391:31:45

which I have referred has been

passed to the prisoner, which

1:31:451:31:49

requires the person convicted to

satisfy the Court of Appeal that he

1:31:491:31:56

would not have been convicted.

Instead, the question should be, is

1:31:561:32:02

there a realistic possibility that

he would not have been convicted?

1:32:021:32:06

Which was, I understand, the legal

precedent and was a test previously

1:32:061:32:10

applied, in the case of McInnis

versus Her Majesty's advocate. Along

1:32:101:32:16

with the honourable member for

Ealing North, to whom I page a bit,

1:32:161:32:20

I visited Alex Hendry in prison,

who, shortly after being convicted

1:32:201:32:25

of joint enterprise murder, was

diagnosed with autism. I had taken a

1:32:251:32:30

close interest in this case in the

last two years and I think it is one

1:32:301:32:34

of immense concern. As we have

learned recently, the police and CPS

1:32:341:32:38

are often very difficult to deal

with overexposure to over

1:32:381:32:47

disclosure. Evidence available to

the prosecutor is more comprehensive

1:32:471:32:50

now, with CCTV and phones, and this

makes it easier in theory could

1:32:501:32:55

differentiate between those who join

in on those who don't. -- in theory

1:32:551:33:01

to differentiate between. The right

to a fair trial is a basic human

1:33:011:33:08

right. I worry that in these cases

our courts are too keen to block

1:33:081:33:13

appeals by those who may have been

convicted by error of the courts.

1:33:131:33:18

This only serves to undermine our

faith in the justice system. There

1:33:181:33:24

is a tendency to believe in Britain

that we have the best criminal

1:33:241:33:27

justice system in the world. I put

it to the Has that our attitude to

1:33:271:33:32

the justice system is riddled with

complacency, a complacency which is

1:33:321:33:38

wholly unjustified. I believe this

view would be borne out by any

1:33:381:33:41

fair-minded person who focuses on

the issue of joint enterprise. The

1:33:411:33:45

whole House should be grateful to

the Right Honourable member for

1:33:451:33:49

Tottenham for his recent report in

respect of the treatment by the

1:33:491:33:55

legal system of black, Asian and

ethnic minorities in Britain. There

1:33:551:33:57

are many in the legal profession,

quite apart from the Right

1:33:571:34:02

Honourable gentleman, who argue that

it is simply unacceptable that in

1:34:021:34:06

2018 virtually all senior members of

the judiciary are white men from

1:34:061:34:11

privileged backgrounds. This simply

does not reflect the society that is

1:34:111:34:15

Britain today and which the

judiciary serves, and we shouldn't

1:34:151:34:18

forget that all too often in

Britain, injustice is not remedied

1:34:181:34:25

by the state, or indeed by members

of this House. Who can forget that

1:34:251:34:33

the manifest injustice of the

Birmingham six was not remedied by

1:34:331:34:36

the police of the statement by the

indefatigable work of two members of

1:34:361:34:41

this House. Still today, the poor

victims' families of that outrage

1:34:411:34:55

have not achieved closure, as the

ongoing coroner's enquiry in

1:34:551:35:01

Birmingham so demonstrates. I hope

that following this debate, the

1:35:011:35:05

media will take a close interest in

the cases where joint enterprise may

1:35:051:35:11

have led to innocent people being

convicted. An organisation formed in

1:35:111:35:21

2010, to whom the Honourable Lady

quite rightly referred, is now

1:35:211:35:26

supporting over 800 prisoners, many

serving mandatory sentences of life,

1:35:261:35:32

22 years, the youngest of whom was

just 12 years when charged. I also

1:35:321:35:37

hope that the justice select

committee, with its considerable

1:35:371:35:40

authority, and we see the chairman

in his place today, will not allow

1:35:401:35:44

these matters to rest until they

have been very fully examined by

1:35:441:35:48

Parliament so that we can be assured

that justice has been delivered.

May

1:35:481:36:00

I also welcome you back to this

place after the tragic circumstances

1:36:001:36:04

that befell your family. I would

like to thank my honourable friend,

1:36:041:36:08

the member for Manchester Central,

for the very thorough way in which

1:36:081:36:15

she has set for the issues of this

debate. And indeed, the Right

1:36:151:36:19

Honourable member for Sutton

Coldfield for the issues he has

1:36:191:36:24

raised, and the mention of my

predecessor, Chris Mullin, who has

1:36:241:36:30

an excellent track record on this

issue. This is a very important

1:36:301:36:34

debate, and a difficult one for

politicians to deal with, because I

1:36:341:36:38

want to first say that my sympathies

today are always with the victims of

1:36:381:36:43

crime. People convicted of murder

must be subject to the full weight

1:36:431:36:48

of the law, as should someone safely

convicted of joint enterprise.

1:36:481:36:53

However, the change in the low in

2016 by the Supreme Court is, in my

1:36:531:36:58

view, not being implemented

correctly. It said that the law had

1:36:581:37:07

taken a long term in 1984, and that

is clearly correct. The prices --

1:37:071:37:13

the cases prior to Jogi could only

go back to the Court of Appeal if

1:37:131:37:18

they proved their conviction had a

substantial injustice. An injustice

1:37:181:37:22

is carrying on for many who are

still in prison today and can't be

1:37:221:37:28

granted an appeal because their

cases are out of time and therefore

1:37:281:37:32

they have to pass this substantial

injustice test. This is where I want

1:37:321:37:36

to focus my remarks. This means that

those convicted more than 28 days

1:37:361:37:44

before the change announced by the

Supreme Court have to prove this

1:37:441:37:47

substantial injustice. That means

that the change in the law would

1:37:471:37:52

have categorically made a

difference. As has been outlined,

1:37:521:37:56

that is an enormous bar to reach.

Whereas those people who were

1:37:561:38:01

convicted in the 28 days only before

the change have to show their

1:38:011:38:06

conviction is unsafe, a much lesser

test of proof. In that change, the

1:38:061:38:13

law might have made a reasonable

difference. That means in a

1:38:131:38:17

hypothetical situation that two

people convicted of the same crime

1:38:171:38:20

with identical evidence are being

treated differently in the eyes of

1:38:201:38:24

the law. That simply is wrong and

needs to change. It is no surprise

1:38:241:38:31

that of the 800 men, women and

children, and a lot were children

1:38:311:38:35

when these convictions happen, that

are supported by the support group,

1:38:351:38:44

not one has successfully appealed

their conviction since the supreme

1:38:441:38:47

court decision in Jogi. I would like

to place on record my support for

1:38:471:38:52

this group, who I think have worked

extremely hard in raising not just

1:38:521:38:57

the issues surrounding this but also

the support they give to the

1:38:571:39:00

families involved in this. The

British justice system is one that I

1:39:001:39:06

feel is a country in most cases we

can be proud of. But when mistakes,

1:39:061:39:14

misinterpretation or miscarriages of

justice occur, they must be put

1:39:141:39:17

right quickly. Under British justice

system is judged by the way they

1:39:171:39:23

react to that as the way that they

implement the law itself. It is

1:39:231:39:26

quite clear to me that the justice

system is failing those people who

1:39:261:39:31

are still in prison, often after

many years, and who were convicted

1:39:311:39:38

before these 28 days, before the

ruling of the Supreme Court. I feel

1:39:381:39:43

the direction of needs are lining in

all cases should be judged against

1:39:431:39:49

the lesser test of proof that the

conviction is unsafe. This would

1:39:491:39:53

mean that people who have been

convicted fairly, equally and

1:39:531:39:56

reasonably against the new test that

the Supreme Court has said when they

1:39:561:40:05

put right the long-term decision,

they will still be in prison, quite

1:40:051:40:08

rightly, and serve the full weight

of the sentence that was passed on

1:40:081:40:13

them. However, for those people who

will no longer be found guilty under

1:40:131:40:18

the new rules, they will get their

freedom and whatever follows that as

1:40:181:40:22

well. And that is where the focus of

this debate, for me, is so

1:40:221:40:28

important. The outcome of this would

be right and prop your -- proper,

1:40:281:40:40

and would be seen as fair, and

reasonable. For me, as long as

1:40:401:40:45

people are being judged against this

ridiculously high bar, British

1:40:451:40:49

justice is failing the people in

prison who have been judged under

1:40:491:40:53

the original application of a wrong

law.

Thank you very much, Mr Deputy

1:40:531:40:59

Speaker. And may I join every other

member of this Housing welcoming you

1:40:591:41:03

back to the chair. Can I

congratulate the Honourable member

1:41:031:41:09

for Manchester Central and my right

honourable friend, the member for

1:41:091:41:12

Sutton Coldfield, and they

Honourable member for Tottenham, for

1:41:121:41:16

securing this debate. I wanted to

speak on it for a number of reasons.

1:41:161:41:20

First, as chair of the justice

committee of this House, it is

1:41:201:41:24

important that we do keep this

matter under review, I think, and

1:41:241:41:30

our committee has had some

consideration of this matter in the

1:41:301:41:32

past and no doubt well again.

Secondly, because I have throughout

1:41:321:41:38

my adult life been a practising

barrister, and I concern myself very

1:41:381:41:45

much with the justice system, it's

something I'm part of and believe

1:41:451:41:49

in. It was a belief in that system

that was one of the reasons that

1:41:491:41:53

make me come to this House, and I

think it is massively important that

1:41:531:41:57

it does what it is supposed to do.

If we fail to get it right, we

1:41:571:42:04

should not be afraid to say so.

Thirdly, I have a constituent whose

1:42:041:42:09

partner, and I think he is in the

gallery today, is serving a life

1:42:091:42:16

sentence with I think a 23 year

tariff as a result of the

1:42:161:42:20

application of the joint enterprise

principle. It was a case of murder,

1:42:201:42:28

a situation in which he made no

bones about having been party to an

1:42:281:42:34

offence of dishonesty but was

convicted of joint enterprise as the

1:42:341:42:41

result of an act of violence

perpetrated by another individual,

1:42:411:42:44

so it comes exactly into the cases

that we are concerned with. For all

1:42:441:42:49

those reasons, this is an important

debate.

1:42:491:42:56

One of the things that has struck me

since I have been in the House is

1:42:561:43:00

how in comparison with the past this

House takes comparatively little

1:43:001:43:06

interest in the of our criminal

justice law. Through the 60s and

1:43:061:43:12

70s, members of this House, through

private Members' Bill or the

1:43:121:43:16

pressure they put on government to

make changes in government

1:43:161:43:22

legislation, they affected major

changes for the better in members

1:43:221:43:25

aspects -- many aspects of our

criminal law, reforms in relation to

1:43:251:43:29

homicide and the abolition of the

death penalty, the changes to the

1:43:291:43:33

law in relation to the

criminalisation of abortion and

1:43:331:43:38

homosexuality, a vast number of

other really important

1:43:381:43:49

matters of criminal justice reform

emanated from debating this House.

1:43:521:43:54

Sadly too often that gets squeezed

out in the current climate and

1:43:541:43:56

perhaps we should debate it more. I

will give way.

I am reluctant to

1:43:561:43:59

intervene on such a good speech. But

he knows of my interest in terms of

1:43:591:44:02

co-chairing the miscarriage of

justice parliamentary group. Does he

1:44:021:44:04

not think the criminal Case review

commission is lacking in terms of

1:44:041:44:10

not intervening enough or early

enough and persistently enough in

1:44:101:44:14

these cases?

There are a number of

areas where changes are needed. I

1:44:141:44:18

have great respect of the work of

the commission but I am conscious

1:44:181:44:23

that they are under pressure both in

terms of resource and terms of

1:44:231:44:27

reference. It would not be

unreasonable to look at... Cases of

1:44:271:44:35

miscarriage of justice occur. I know

full well. I remember vividly

1:44:351:44:40

prosecuting one wants, not in a

murder case, but in a rape case, and

1:44:401:44:44

at the time that evidence and legal

test appeared compelling. Thanks to

1:44:441:44:48

the work of the criminal cases

review commission, evidence came to

1:44:481:44:53

light and I had no hesitation in not

seeking to resist the appeal when it

1:44:531:44:56

came to the Court of Appeal for the

second time. It is also important

1:44:561:45:01

that they have the means to carry

out their very important job, and

1:45:011:45:06

their role as significant. But there

are other gaps that we must look at

1:45:061:45:10

as well. Everybody accepts now that

there was a serious departure from

1:45:101:45:16

good reason in the case in Privy

Council in, I think, 1958. The odd

1:45:161:45:28

thing about it, when you read the

case, is that the judgment which was

1:45:281:45:34

described as taking a wrong turn in

the Supreme Court was actually

1:45:341:45:39

almost not based upon the principal

facts or arguments that had brought

1:45:391:45:44

the appeal to start with. The noble

lord, the member of the Privy

1:45:441:45:50

Council, giving the judgment in that

case rather went off on a tangent

1:45:501:45:54

and developed what was then regarded

as the concept of parasitic

1:45:541:46:01

accessory liability. The matter

could have been resolved on the

1:46:011:46:04

facts of the own case. But sat out

very well and what is a detailed

1:46:041:46:11

judgment of a very strongly

constituted Supreme Court. I

1:46:111:46:13

certainly do not fault the judgment

of the Supreme Court at all. It is

1:46:131:46:20

exceedingly well reasoned and it is

significant, not only did the

1:46:201:46:23

president of the Supreme Court, the

noble lord, but also that current

1:46:231:46:34

president, and then lord chief

justice, took very unusually the

1:46:341:46:39

step of sitting in the Supreme Court

because of his experience in

1:46:391:46:42

criminal justice matters. Can I just

make this point? Intellectually, the

1:46:421:46:49

Supreme Court got the answer right.

The approach which had encompassed

1:46:491:46:54

so many people into secondary

liability in homicide of faxes was

1:46:541:46:59

wrong. However, I think there remain

practical errors in its application.

1:46:591:47:09

Can he explain to me as a layman why

this extremely well written judgment

1:47:091:47:13

which I have also read, having been

made, the criminal justice system

1:47:131:47:19

has not reacted with enormous alarm

and immediately set in train

1:47:191:47:23

reviewing the very large number of

cases which are affected by that

1:47:231:47:26

judgment?

I think that brings me

to... There is a concern that in

1:47:261:47:33

practice the effect to the bringing

of appeals out of time, the wait

1:47:331:47:40

been interpreted in cases and

others, it has been particularly

1:47:401:47:45

restrictive. I think that is the

difficulty. It is very clear that

1:47:451:47:50

the Court of Appeal has taken a very

narrow interpretation of the

1:47:501:47:57

substantial injustice point. I do

not think that necessarily had to be

1:47:571:48:00

the case on the basis of the case.

Let me just say, it was always made

1:48:001:48:06

very clear in the judgment of the

Supreme Court but one should not

1:48:061:48:09

assume the case would mean every

conviction for murder on the basis

1:48:091:48:13

of joint enterprise would be

overturned. Even where a conviction

1:48:131:48:18

for murder was overturned, there

would not be many cases of a

1:48:181:48:24

conviction for manslaughter where

that was appropriate but the level

1:48:241:48:27

of foresight was less. That is the

important thing we have to look at.

1:48:271:48:33

But it is really important

nonetheless we get to a situation

1:48:331:48:38

where people are convicted certainly

of offences where they have done

1:48:381:48:41

wrong but they should be convicted

of and sentenced for offences which

1:48:411:48:45

properly reflect the level of

culpability of their behaviour. And

1:48:451:48:51

when we do not get that right, that

undermines, understandably,

1:48:511:48:56

confidence in the system. That is my

concern and it is shared by other

1:48:561:49:00

honourable members who have ready

spoken about the difficulty in

1:49:001:49:03

bringing cases out of time to the

Court of Appeal. I think that is

1:49:031:49:07

something that needs to be looked

at. If the president makes it

1:49:071:49:11

difficult for the court, perhaps

Parliament and government should

1:49:111:49:14

indeed consider it. I observe in

passing that is in any event the

1:49:141:49:19

proviso to the criminal appeal act

which would mean that if one is the

1:49:191:49:22

case has been heard no material

injustice has occurred, nonetheless,

1:49:221:49:28

the conviction can be upheld. At the

moment, we have a double test, test

1:49:281:49:33

to bring the appeal out of time and

also the issue of the proviso. The

1:49:331:49:36

difference being of course in the

test to bring the appeal out of

1:49:361:49:41

time, the onus is on the appellant

to meet the test, whereas

1:49:411:49:46

subsequently, the test in relation

to the proviso under the criminal

1:49:461:49:50

appeal act, the onus is on the

prosecution. That is something to be

1:49:501:49:54

considered. The other point I wanted

to make, when the Justice Committee

1:49:541:49:58

looked at the matter with some care

in evidence sessions in the last

1:49:581:50:01

Parliament, this has to be seen in

the context of a very unsatisfactory

1:50:011:50:05

state of the law of homicide as a

whole. A distinction that we murder

1:50:051:50:12

and manslaughter remains extremely

clear in this country. -- a

1:50:121:50:16

distinction between. So far

government has not taken up the

1:50:161:50:19

virginity of having it examined. The

logical route would be to ask the

1:50:191:50:23

Law Commission to examine that. In

evidence to the Justice Committee in

1:50:231:50:27

the last Parliament Professor David

Ormerod, deputy chair of the Law

1:50:271:50:34

Commission, senior commission for

criminal law, distinguished academic

1:50:341:50:40

queens council, he identified

exactly that point and he said this,

1:50:401:50:43

the review of the law of homicide

would be still representing the best

1:50:431:50:50

solution which could encompass a

decision, enabling us to encompass

1:50:501:50:57

the consequences thereafter that

stem from it. Referring to the

1:50:571:51:04

Supreme Court's decision, they are

constrained by the facts of the case

1:51:041:51:07

and the nature of the argument, that

is the common law system. It was not

1:51:071:51:13

possible for them to offer a

comprehensive review relating to

1:51:131:51:17

secondary liability which the Law

Commission could do. One of my first

1:51:171:51:21

asks of the government as well as

revisiting the test for bringing the

1:51:211:51:25

appeal is of time, the second task,

take up the Law Commission's

1:51:251:51:29

willingness to examine that area.

There is a vast expertise in the Law

1:51:291:51:34

Commission which I believe is

sometimes underused. They can look

1:51:341:51:40

dispassionately. They can look at

secondary liability and put it into

1:51:401:51:44

the broader difficulties we have

around the Law of manslaughter

1:51:441:51:47

because we also have compelling

evidence from criminal

1:51:471:51:51

practitioners, representatives of

the Criminal Bar Association, about

1:51:511:51:54

the real difficulty the complexity

of giving directions to a jury is in

1:51:541:51:59

manslaughter causes and back very

frequently judges having given most

1:51:591:52:04

careful directions, after discussion

among council, nonetheless, they

1:52:041:52:09

find repeatedly the jury returns

sending back note seeking for

1:52:091:52:13

further clarification. The more lack

of clarity there is, the greater the

1:52:131:52:17

risk of injustice occurring. I hope

that can be resolved and I would

1:52:171:52:24

suggest to the Minister that it

would be a sensible and measured

1:52:241:52:29

approach to get an intellectually

sound route forward to this

1:52:291:52:33

intractable issue. The other matter

I would ask the Minister to look at

1:52:331:52:39

is the review by the criminal

prosecution service of their

1:52:391:52:43

guidelines which again we heard

evidence about. The fact the review

1:52:431:52:47

is taking place is welcome. The

honourable lady and the member from

1:52:471:52:51

Manchester Central and my honourable

friend the Sutton Coldfield have

1:52:511:52:55

referred to the disproportionate way

in which the use of prosecutions

1:52:551:52:59

using joint enterprise under the

impact on certain communities. It is

1:52:591:53:04

a fact the doctrine that developed

some 300 years ago can have effects

1:53:041:53:08

upon the Britain and social life of

21st-century Britain which is very

1:53:081:53:13

much different from the way it was

being developed by Lord Hale in

1:53:131:53:19

about 1670. We do need to have a

means of applying that prosecuting a

1:53:191:53:24

real tool in a way that reflects

modern society. I hope the public

1:53:241:53:27

interest element of the guidelines

will be strengthened to consider the

1:53:271:53:33

appropriateness of using this

particular tool in the way in which

1:53:331:53:36

it does given the impact it has upon

certain communities within the UK. I

1:53:361:53:42

hope those are constructive

suggestions we can take forward from

1:53:421:53:45

this debate.

Thank you very much

indeed. It is a pleasure to follow

1:53:451:53:50

the honourable gentleman and I take

from his words and from the emotion

1:53:501:53:54

behind his words that the door to

the just select committee is now

1:53:541:54:00

open and that there may be sometime

in the future when the Justice

1:54:001:54:04

Select Committee will consider this

matter because I think that is of

1:54:041:54:08

the places where we can seek to

bring an end to this horrendous

1:54:081:54:14

disproportionate nightmare, this

stain on British jurisprudence and

1:54:141:54:17

this appalling situation in which 40

seconds can lead to 12 years, or

1:54:171:54:23

someone who just happens to be

within a group of people can find

1:54:231:54:28

themselves facing the best part of

their young life in prison for

1:54:281:54:31

something they could not stop even

if they wanted to. And it is often

1:54:311:54:35

said that the House is at its worst

when it is unanimous, when we all

1:54:351:54:41

agree on something. I think this is

the exception to that rule and I

1:54:411:54:45

have to say tribute has already been

paid to Charlotte Hendry, and other

1:54:451:54:49

campaigners, I would like to think

that even without the informed and

1:54:491:54:53

passionate prodding, people like my

right honourable friend the member

1:54:531:54:59

for Manchester Central, the

honourable gentleman, member for

1:54:591:55:03

Sutton Coldfield, they would have

put this matter forward because it

1:55:031:55:05

is a stain on the British legal

system. The Prime Minister has

1:55:051:55:09

referred to the burning sense of

injustice. This injustice is burning

1:55:091:55:14

so strongly and brightly, the

smokers virtually choking us and we

1:55:141:55:17

cannot see the sense and sanity of

the Laufer the obfuscation that has

1:55:171:55:22

come around from this ridiculous

piece of legislation, originally

1:55:221:55:26

brought in to deal with noughties,

very often a pastime problems of

1:55:261:55:35

this House. -- to deal with

dualling. The idea that there could

1:55:351:55:41

be parasitic accessory liability for

people dualling in Hyde Park

1:55:411:55:46

hundreds of years ago could somehow

lead to my constituent, a man with a

1:55:461:55:50

four-year-old child who he has

hardly seen, facing 12 years in

1:55:501:55:54

prison for what happened when he was

with a group of young men, in 40

1:55:541:56:00

seconds, how on earth can we move

from that piece of medieval law to

1:56:001:56:05

the present situation in which

people are suffering? I would like

1:56:051:56:08

to suggest the reason why something

happened in this area of

1:56:081:56:14

jurisprudence in the 1990s comes

down to one word and it has already

1:56:141:56:17

been mentioned by the member for

Sutton Coldfield. I can forgive him

1:56:171:56:23

for slightly destroying my

stereotype of stern unbending

1:56:231:56:27

conservatism because he has shown

himself to be a humane, decent,

1:56:271:56:32

informed man on this and I pay full

tribute to him. He used the word

1:56:321:56:36

going. In the 1990s, the assumption

was groups of young people, black,

1:56:361:56:44

again, they were a threat, somehow

out to destroy society -- he used

1:56:441:56:48

the word gang. I would like to think

the senior petulance of the law very

1:56:481:57:03

well versed in street culture, but I

think on this particular occasion,

1:57:031:57:07

people saw gangs as a threat and

they somehow transposed groups to

1:57:071:57:14

gangs -- the senior petulance. This

meconium legislation was brought in

1:57:141:57:21

to crush these people, to crush a

threat that did not exist -- this

1:57:211:57:27

draconian legislation. It is not a

threat purely confined to one group

1:57:271:57:30

of people. How can you have young

people like Kenneth Alexander and

1:57:301:57:37

Alex Henry, simply out with friends,

facing this life ahead of them

1:57:371:57:43

because of the law? There are few

tasks more melancholy than visiting

1:57:431:57:47

the constituent in prison. One of

the frustrations of visiting the

1:57:471:57:54

constituent in prison is the

inability to actually assist, to do

1:57:541:57:58

more than to sympathise and two in

some way just try to show he is not

1:57:581:58:02

forgotten.

1:58:021:58:16

It will be inconvenient for the

judicial system to review cases,

1:58:161:58:19

some say. Dan writing it will be. I

would take inconvenience for a while

1:58:191:58:26

rather than people spending more

time in prison than they need to.

1:58:261:58:33

They have the right to call upon the

judicial system to be inconvenient

1:58:331:58:37

if necessary. When I first became

involved in this case, when my

1:58:371:58:43

constituent's sister, Alex's sister,

contacted me, and I could scarcely

1:58:431:58:47

believe. I know the family. He lives

a couple of streets away from it, a

1:58:471:58:54

Hanwell man. He soon became a neck

side-mac -- dart-mac the Right

1:58:541:59:11

Honourable member for Ashford Road

in June 2014: In my view, the law on

1:59:111:59:18

joint enterprise serves a useful

purpose. By bringing people to

1:59:181:59:22

justice when they have been involved

in the commission of an offence. I

1:59:221:59:25

do not share the view that the law

penalises innocent bystanders are no

1:59:251:59:29

longer serves up. It make a valid

purpose. We have no plans to amend

1:59:291:59:36

at the moment. I'm sorry, this law

does not form a useful purpose. It

1:59:361:59:41

penalises the wrong people, brings

the law into disrepute, and punishes

1:59:411:59:46

wholly disproportionately. It is

destroying families, wrecking

1:59:461:59:49

individual lives, and above all, it

is disengaging a whole group of

1:59:491:59:54

people from the legal process

because when they see a system so

1:59:541:59:58

wrong, how can they possibly have

any confidence in that system? I

1:59:582:00:04

have no argument today with the

member for Ashford, but I think he

2:00:042:00:07

was wrong then. I think that was

probably a brief that came from

2:00:072:00:13

someone wearing a wig. As far as I'm

concerned, I think this law has to

2:00:132:00:17

be changed and has to be amended. Of

course, I give way.

My honourable

2:00:172:00:23

friend gives generously the benefit

of the doubt. He was proven to be

2:00:232:00:31

wrong and he was reading a brief

because the Supreme Court said the

2:00:312:00:36

courts were wrong.

Absolutely, the

court said the law had been

2:00:362:00:40

interpreted incorrectly, but that's

only half of it. Writing the wrong

2:00:402:00:45

is what has to happen now. --

correcting the wrong. I give way.

I

2:00:452:00:51

am very grateful and he makes a

passionate point about it, and I

2:00:512:00:54

agree with him that correcting the

wrong is important. Would he agree

2:00:542:01:00

that there is a distinction between

the concept of joint enterprise,

2:01:002:01:03

which can in many cases be

reasonable, but it is the extension

2:01:032:01:16

of it to the activity of groups of

young people who are one of them may

2:01:162:01:21

commit violence and the suggestion

that foresight can be equated with

2:01:212:01:26

intent, which is taking that

doctrine beyond the sensible

2:01:262:01:30

application.

I think he has

indicated a way forward. He knows

2:01:302:01:35

the case of Craig and Bentley. In

that case, one of them was hanged.

2:01:352:01:42

In joint enterprise. Is it not a

salutary thought that if the present

2:01:422:01:49

law on joint enterprise had been

applied when we had the death

2:01:492:01:52

penalty, 20 young men would have

been hanged? If we are saying that

2:01:522:02:00

everyone in our group is guilty,

would they all have been hanged? The

2:02:002:02:05

mere thought about it is so

horrific, so disgusting, that it

2:02:052:02:08

surely brings into sharp relief the

insanity of this present

2:02:082:02:12

legislation, and the idea that you

can cast is great blanket of

2:02:122:02:15

culpability over a whole group of

people - this law is nonsensical,

2:02:152:02:21

cruel, brutal, outdated, and it has

to go. Amazingly, the first time we

2:02:212:02:28

have debated this subject on the

floor of this House. I hope that

2:02:282:02:32

today will be the beginning of that

process which leads not just people

2:02:322:02:37

like Alex Henry actually seeing

daylight again, and seeing his child

2:02:372:02:41

and family, but all those other

people. When I last saw Alex, he was

2:02:412:02:50

keeping his head down, keeping his

nose clean, working in the kitchen.

2:02:502:02:54

He had kind words for the staff at

HMP Whitemore. But the hope was

2:02:542:03:00

going out of his eyes. You could

actually see him looking at that

2:03:002:03:06

long stretch ahead of him, and as

the honourable gentleman mentioned

2:03:062:03:12

earlier, this is a man who is

actually on the autism spectrum. In

2:03:122:03:18

his appeal, evidence was submitted

on his behalf by none less than FSR

2:03:182:03:23

Baron Cohen. You cannot get a higher

authority than that. Was that

2:03:232:03:28

opinion accepted? Clearly it wasn't

because my constituent is still in

2:03:282:03:32

prison. He is a young autistic man

who, in 40 seconds of his life,

2:03:322:03:39

didn't stop something happening. He

didn't do anything wrong, he didn't

2:03:392:03:43

stop it happening. Can it really be

right that in this day and age, the

2:03:432:03:47

law that we are all sworn to uphold,

that we are part of us are of the

2:03:472:03:52

establishment of this country, is

having that effect and that impact

2:03:522:03:56

on people, disproportionately on

young black men? Disproportionately

2:03:562:04:00

on the innocent. Mr Deputy Speaker,

I profoundly hope that this, today,

2:04:002:04:06

is one of those occasions when

something really good comes from

2:04:062:04:09

this place, where we put down a

marker to say that, yes,, we thank

2:04:092:04:14

the support group for all their

work, but even without them, in our

2:04:142:04:19

own heart of hearts, in our own

analysis, we realise that this

2:04:192:04:24

stinks. This is wrong. This is

dangerously, destructively,

2:04:242:04:30

corrosive me wrong. We have to do

something about it. Let today be the

2:04:302:04:35

day that we consign the present

interpretation of joint enterprise

2:04:352:04:39

to the dustbin of history, take the

law back into repute, and hopefully

2:04:392:04:49

make Kenneth Alexander and Alex

Henry take their rightful places in

2:04:492:04:52

society, where we want them to be,

may they be here in the House of

2:04:522:04:56

Commons, in the gallery or whatever,

rather than behind bars at the

2:04:562:05:00

nation's expense. We cannot go on

like this. Thank you.

It is a

2:05:002:05:04

pleasure to see you back in your

place, Mr Deputy Speaker, and also a

2:05:042:05:10

pleasure to follow the honourable

member for Ealing North. A couple of

2:05:102:05:15

points he raises about the local

context, 40 seconds going to 12

2:05:152:05:23

years, and the mention of a more

ancient practice involving due

2:05:232:05:31

loving. I would like to think the

member for Manchester Central for

2:05:312:05:34

bringing this important debate to

the House. Our justice system needs

2:05:342:05:37

to recognise the context in which

much crime happens. There is a

2:05:372:05:45

social context. There is more than

just an individual engaging with and

2:05:452:05:49

committing crime. Friends and family

have a huge impact, huge influence

2:05:492:05:55

on people's lives and what they do.

The moral context and framework in

2:05:552:06:00

which those people act. If an

individual gets in with the wrong

2:06:002:06:05

crowd, perhaps again, perhaps a mob,

and those people encourage, force,

2:06:052:06:12

direct, perhaps egg on people to

commit crimes, the Justice system

2:06:122:06:19

has to take account of their actions

and there has to be that justice.

2:06:192:06:23

This is what friends and families of

the victims, so often murdered,

2:06:232:06:28

would want and expect. I would just

like to support the points the

2:06:282:06:37

honourable lady made about

proportionality, improving that

2:06:372:06:42

sense. The gathering and

presentation of accurate data is

2:06:422:06:48

important. It is important to have

good data to base these decisions on

2:06:482:06:52

in the future. And bringing forward

the CPS review. In conclusion, I'm

2:06:522:06:57

not a lawyer and I don't want to

keep you for too long, I would just

2:06:572:07:03

recognise that following the Supreme

Court ruling of February 2016, the

2:07:032:07:08

CPS consulted widely on new legal

guidance for prosecutors in cases of

2:07:082:07:12

secondary liability, and I would

hope that the Minister agrees that

2:07:122:07:19

honourable members and their

constituents would be best served by

2:07:192:07:22

waiting for that guidance to be

issued.

David Lammy.

Can I

2:07:222:07:33

congratulate my honourable friend,

the member for Manchester Central,

2:07:332:07:38

in bringing this debate, and in the

way she has gone about representing

2:07:382:07:43

her constituents, many of whom I met

a few weeks ago, who were caught up

2:07:432:07:48

in this terrible nightmare. And also

the Right Honourable member for

2:07:482:07:53

Sutton Coldfield, whom I know is

championing and taking up many of

2:07:532:07:58

these issues consistently over the

last few years in this House. The

2:07:582:08:05

doctrine of common purpose, of joint

enterprise, is a common-law

2:08:052:08:08

doctrine, very much derived from

judicial decisions, not legislation

2:08:082:08:13

passed by Parliament. As has been

said, it is now time for Parliament

2:08:132:08:21

to reflect hard on where we have

arrived at, and hard on the fact

2:08:212:08:27

that the nature of this debate is

essentially about juveniles, young

2:08:272:08:34

people, as young as 14, who are

looking at significant stretches of

2:08:342:08:41

their lives behind bars. This debate

is about what we have come to

2:08:412:08:48

describe as gangs. We don't use

gangs, Mr Deputy Speaker, when we're

2:08:482:08:56

talking about the Bullington club.

We do use gangs when we're talking

2:08:562:09:00

about black youth in constituencies

like mine, all right youth in

2:09:002:09:08

constituencies like, say, Salford is

in the north-west of England. And it

2:09:082:09:18

is for that reason that it is so

important that we look hard on a

2:09:182:09:22

doctrine that stretches back to

1846, when two cart drivers engaged

2:09:222:09:28

in a race that killed a pedestrian.

Throughout the 20th century, further

2:09:282:09:34

court judgments clarified the joint

enterprise doctrine in the case of

2:09:342:09:39

murder, even if there is no plan to

murder and one party kills while

2:09:392:09:44

carrying out the plan to do

something else, for example,

2:09:442:09:49

probably, the other participants can

still be found guilty. Mr Speaker,

2:09:492:09:53

the use of this doctrine has been

criticised by academics, by legal

2:09:532:10:00

practitioners, by the House of

Commons select committee, and I want

2:10:002:10:04

to associate myself with all those

remarks, and the fantastic work of

2:10:042:10:09

the support group, particularly over

the last two years. I'm very

2:10:092:10:17

concerned, Mr Speaker, that

following my review, it is important

2:10:172:10:24

that we recognise in this country

that in black and particularly

2:10:242:10:30

Muslim communities, there is

tremendous concern at the face of

2:10:302:10:36

our judiciary. The judiciary does

not appear to be independent to

2:10:362:10:43

those communities. Justice in those

communities is not perceived to be

2:10:432:10:48

blind. It is why I was so

disappointed, Mr Deputy Speaker,

2:10:482:10:52

that when I proposed a target in my

review which I did for the

2:10:522:10:58

Government, and it is not

prescriptive, merely a goal. It was

2:10:582:11:05

so roundly rejected by our senior

judiciary and by the Government. I

2:11:052:11:10

am also concerned that the

independence that our judiciary say

2:11:102:11:13

they have, and quite rightly have in

our democracy, means that they are

2:11:132:11:18

hugely detached from the communities

that we're talking about today. They

2:11:182:11:22

don't have to defend their actions

in Tottenham Town Hall or Manchester

2:11:222:11:26

City Hall. They are never present in

those communities. They don't have

2:11:262:11:31

the kind of surgeries that we do.

And it's really important that they

2:11:312:11:36

reflect hard, that within that

common law tradition, there has been

2:11:362:11:40

progress in other jurisdictions -

Canada, Australia, New Zealand

2:11:402:11:45

cinema in terms of proximity and

diversity in relation to the

2:11:452:11:50

judiciary, but in this country, we

appear to be stuck.

2:11:502:12:02

-- New Zealand - in terms of

proximity... Joint enterprise has

2:12:032:12:16

long been justified on the basis

that it sends a wider social message

2:12:162:12:22

by Government messages of both

Conservative and Labour stripes. I

2:12:222:12:28

won't quote from the former

Secretary of State, who was Justice

2:12:282:12:34

Secretary in 2011. I think

honourable members will recognise

2:12:342:12:37

that I don't really need to. They

can understand what his views would

2:12:372:12:40

be, but Lord Faulkner, in 2010, said

a joint enterprise, the message the

2:12:402:12:46

lowest sending out is that we are

very willing to see people convicted

2:12:462:12:49

of a part of gang violence, and that

violence ends in somebody's death.

2:12:492:12:55

Is it unfair? You have got to decide

not does the justice system later

2:12:552:13:03

people wrongly being convicted? I

think the real question is, do you

2:13:032:13:07

want a law as Draconian as our law

is, which says jury scan convicted

2:13:072:13:11

even if you are quite peripheral

members of the gang which killed?

2:13:112:13:19

The former Lord Chancellor Lord

Faulkner got it wrong, I want to

2:13:192:13:22

say. And the perception is, this is

very wrong, in the sort of

2:13:222:13:26

communities I think they're talking

about today.

2:13:262:13:33

Joint enterprise raises significant

issues of miscarriage of justice

2:13:332:13:36

which must command the attention of

this House and of our wider justice

2:13:362:13:40

system.

I felt the member for giving

way and also for the record, my

2:13:402:13:49

thanks for the work you have done. I

want to thank my friend who is a

2:13:492:13:56

member from Manchester Central, the

neighbouring constituency to mine.

2:13:562:14:01

This issue that has touched lives of

my constituents too. I spoke

2:14:012:14:08

yesterday to someone whose son was

sent to prison for 30 years under

2:14:082:14:15

joint enterprise. Being the former

serving police officer in the

2:14:152:14:19

Greater Manchester Police and also a

practising solicitor, the concern is

2:14:192:14:24

that while the Supreme Court has

said the law has taken the wrong

2:14:242:14:28

turn, nothing has been done to put

that right. That is not acceptable.

2:14:282:14:33

Secondly, what is becoming clear,

listening to my honourable friends,

2:14:332:14:38

the BMA and the working class

defendants of represented as the

2:14:382:14:47

gang... I hope you will agree this

is essential that we have greater

2:14:472:14:51

transparency through official

statistics to the make-up of joint

2:14:512:14:56

enterprise defendants. Thank you.

My

honourable friend makes his point

2:14:562:15:02

exactly and he is quite right. I

think the issue is, what were to

2:15:022:15:07

happen if the principal intent was

graver than the assessor is and in

2:15:072:15:13

all of the cases mentioned, that is

absolutely the case? What would

2:15:132:15:17

happen if the outcome of whatever

act could the principle carries out

2:15:172:15:22

is far graver than the accessory was

aware of? And again, getting into

2:15:222:15:27

the foresight and intent of a young

adult is next to impossible with all

2:15:272:15:34

of what we know in modern times

about Child psychology. It is

2:15:342:15:40

absolutely right we do not see young

people convicted in those cases.

He

2:15:402:15:49

is making a very powerful case and

perhaps I could support him in this

2:15:492:15:54

way, evidence to the Justice

Committee made clear that

2:15:542:15:57

practitioners felt it would be of

great assistance to the jury in

2:15:572:16:01

deciding these issues if there was a

statutory framework around which we

2:16:012:16:05

could work. We did that with the

theft act, replacing out of date

2:16:052:16:09

common law in the past. In the Jogee

case, the trial judge in the first

2:16:092:16:16

instance was this country's first

black woman High Court judge but she

2:16:162:16:20

was obliged to follow the rules of

precedent. If there had been a

2:16:202:16:24

review, the situation might have

been different.

He is quite right

2:16:242:16:28

and he makes the case that it is

really for this house now to get to

2:16:282:16:32

thinking about these matters. He

will be aware that an accessory

2:16:322:16:38

party can be liable under joint

enterprise, even if they withdraw

2:16:382:16:42

from the group before any crime is

committed. Many honourable members

2:16:422:16:48

will think of examples of a group of

students in a playground or Park

2:16:482:16:54

where someone talked about teaching

someone a lesson. In fact, we might

2:16:542:16:58

recall that in our own lives when we

were younger. One of those

2:16:582:17:04

individuals thinks that teaching a

lesson involves significant

2:17:042:17:10

violence, salt or even something

that ends up in murder, and just

2:17:102:17:15

because you as a group discussed

teaching a lesson, you end up with

2:17:152:17:19

prison on murder -- assault. We know

of this House when members have

2:17:192:17:24

picked up the mace, former leader of

the SNP, the honourable member Lord

2:17:242:17:30

Heseltine, if you picked up the mace

and an older Members of Parliament

2:17:302:17:34

thought it was coming towards them

and had a heart attack and died, you

2:17:342:17:39

would be in serious trouble. But if

you discussed it with your

2:17:392:17:44

colleagues beforehand, you too would

be in serious trouble. That is our

2:17:442:17:50

whole political party, on this

occasion, the SNP, that might have

2:17:502:17:53

been heading towards this. That is

how ridiculous it has become and why

2:17:532:17:59

we need urgent, urgent, urgent

review. Let me just say too, we are

2:17:592:18:04

having this debate at a point in

which politicians have said we have

2:18:042:18:08

to crack down on gangs and that is

why we are doing this. Yet has it

2:18:082:18:12

worked? Knife crime is rising. In

England and Wales, there were over

2:18:122:18:25

36,000 knife offences in the last 12

months to the end of June. Hospital

2:18:252:18:30

admissions as a result of knife

crime and sharp objects is rising.

2:18:302:18:35

We have a real problem in London.

The mayor of London is seeking to

2:18:352:18:39

deal with it. Has it had the effect

people suggested? It hasn't and the

2:18:392:18:48

reason it hasn't this because it is

not mine is driving knife crime, it

2:18:482:18:54

is serious and organised criminals,

gangsters and kingpins, driving

2:18:542:18:56

knife crime. Because they are

driving the trafficking of serious

2:18:562:19:04

drugs, cocaine, driving turf wars,

making some of the communities we

2:19:042:19:08

represent more violent. The 14, 15,

16-year-old, knocked up on joint

2:19:082:19:17

enterprise, they do not know

anything about getting a tonne of

2:19:172:19:21

cocaine from Bolivia, it is the

gangsters that we must go after, and

2:19:212:19:24

we are hearing very little about

that. We know the Ministry of

2:19:242:19:31

Justice's own research into joint

enterprise convictions understands

2:19:312:19:36

the psychology of young people. It

understands their need, for

2:19:362:19:42

teenagers and juveniles, to want to

belong to a group, it understands a

2:19:422:19:47

predisposition towards risk, toward

seeking excitement, towards reckless

2:19:472:19:51

behaviour. It understands there and

ability to disobey pellet their

2:19:512:19:57

impulses. They have less

self-controlled ashlar cred to this

2:19:572:20:03

inhibit their impulses. All of us

raising teenagers or have raised

2:20:032:20:08

teenagers, we recognise all of those

characteristics. Are we really to

2:20:082:20:14

throw young men on the black and

white, in prison because they are

2:20:142:20:22

young? -- young men, black and

white. I have to macro boys at home.

2:20:222:20:30

They navigate the streets of North

London on their way to school. One

2:20:302:20:33

of them particularly goes through

areas which are high knife crime

2:20:332:20:38

areas. I am raising boys that would

never ever take a knife out of their

2:20:382:20:45

house and use it on anybody else. I

am absolutely sure about that. But

2:20:452:20:49

can I say that if something was

going on in the Park that one of

2:20:492:20:56

them might not drift towards the

action? Hand on heart as a father, I

2:20:562:21:02

cannot say that. I do not want ever

to have to visit one of my own

2:21:022:21:07

children in prison. None of us

should want ever to have to visit

2:21:072:21:12

young people in prison. None of us

should want that waste. None of us

2:21:122:21:16

should want that criminal record. It

is time this House acted. I am

2:21:162:21:27

grateful to be called to contribute

to this important debate. Always a

2:21:272:21:31

pleasure to follow the right

honourable gentleman from Tottenham.

2:21:312:21:35

I congratulate those honourable and

right honourable colleagues for

2:21:352:21:38

securing the debate, especially my

honourable friend from Manchester

2:21:382:21:42

Central, and the Backbench Business

Committee for allocating the time. I

2:21:422:21:47

must confess, when my constituent,

when she first came to see me in

2:21:472:21:52

2012 about her son's imprisonment, I

thought it a straightforward case of

2:21:522:21:59

am doing her best for her children

despite they had offended. I want to

2:21:592:22:03

commend her for a pressing need to

look beyond a concerned mother and

2:22:032:22:07

to examine the Jengba campaign,

joint enterprise not guilty by

2:22:072:22:14

association, and I attended their

briefing here a few months ago and I

2:22:142:22:17

think most of the colleagues here

today were at that briefing and I

2:22:172:22:21

was shocked by the consistent

reports of case after case of mostly

2:22:212:22:26

young men and as we have heard

disproportionately so many from

2:22:262:22:33

black and minority ethnic

communities who had not only been

2:22:332:22:36

convicted but also handed the

severest of sentences. I commend

2:22:362:22:41

Jengba for their campaign and the

briefing for today. I should say, as

2:22:412:22:46

others have, that I have not heard

anyone say all those locked up all

2:22:462:22:50

innocent. Some may well be. But the

message I him strongly is that

2:22:502:22:58

although some may be, many are

guilty of much lesser offences, some

2:22:582:23:04

much less serious offences, and

therefore, the terrorist handed down

2:23:042:23:09

by the judges seem questionable at

least. -- the tariffs. The numbers

2:23:092:23:13

are huge. Efforts to assess just how

many are difficult. The Ministry of

2:23:132:23:20

Justice has not produced it sticks

of those found guilty on joint

2:23:202:23:23

enterprise and one has to ask why.

-- produced statistics. It is

2:23:232:23:28

estimated between 1800 and over 4500

people have been prosecuted for

2:23:282:23:38

murder using joint enterprise as

part of the charge. I am getting

2:23:382:23:41

ahead of myself. The fundamental

flaw in using joint enterprise to

2:23:412:23:47

prosecute for murder was exposed as

we have heard in speech after speech

2:23:472:23:52

by the Supreme Court in 2016. It

held then that the law had taken a

2:23:522:23:58

wrong turn, that has been mentioned

by every Speaker so far. That has to

2:23:582:24:03

be one of the weakest euphemisms we

have ever heard. But the law had

2:24:032:24:09

taken a wrong turn in 1984 in a case

and overturned the verdict. Jogee

2:24:092:24:20

was retried and found not guilty of

murder but guilty of manslaughter.

2:24:202:24:27

The sentence was replaced by an

appropriate sentence for

2:24:272:24:30

manslaughter. The Supreme Court also

ruled that only cases prior to Jogee

2:24:302:24:35

could go back to the Court of Appeal

if they could prove their conviction

2:24:352:24:39

was a substantial injustice. Despite

the hundreds of cases at least, the

2:24:392:24:45

ministry cannot or will not say how

many there are, the Court of Appeal

2:24:452:24:50

has denied every single joint

enterprise appeal. Incidentally, as

2:24:502:24:54

we have also heard, the youngest

person to receive a life sentence

2:24:542:24:59

was just 12 years old when charged.

Turning to the law, the common law

2:24:592:25:05

doctrine of joint enterprise for the

purposes of this debate covers two

2:25:052:25:09

types. Assisting and encouraging,

aiding and abetting, and I do not

2:25:092:25:14

have anything to say on that. The

other is parasitic accessory

2:25:142:25:18

liability, which I find quite

troubling. Even the title sounds

2:25:182:25:24

like the accused must be guilty of

something or some form of vicious

2:25:242:25:29

disease. It is controversial as a

secondary offender would not need to

2:25:292:25:34

attend the crime but merely be able

to have foreseen it. Traditionally

2:25:342:25:39

to be convicted of murder, it had to

be proven that the killer intended

2:25:392:25:43

to kill or at least really seriously

injure. This was quite a shift and

2:25:432:25:49

lead to hundreds if not thousands of

convictions over 30 years since

2:25:492:25:55

1985. The Supreme Court decision in

2016, it must call statistically at

2:25:552:26:02

least some of those convictions into

question. The decision, however,

2:26:022:26:08

could only apply to out of time

appeals if they could prove a

2:26:082:26:12

substantial injustice occurred in

the case. This was tested in 2016.

2:26:122:26:17

The case needed to prove

categorically that a change in the

2:26:172:26:22

law would have made a difference.

The criminal appeal act of 1968

2:26:222:26:29

allows the court to quash a

conviction for the misapplication of

2:26:292:26:34

law might have made a difference

rather than would have made a

2:26:342:26:38

difference. Since the Jogee

decision, none of that a hundred

2:26:382:26:42

men, women and children currently

supported by the campaign Jengba

2:26:422:26:46

have successfully appealed their

conviction, not one. Turning to my

2:26:462:26:50

own constituents, they were both

sentenced to 16.5 years for a murder

2:26:502:26:59

committed by another man. I will not

go into great detail but suffice to

2:26:592:27:03

say, they maintained they had no

knowledge of the guilty party's

2:27:032:27:07

intention and one was a youth worker

and had never been in trouble

2:27:072:27:10

before. It might be that there is

more to the case but to be found

2:27:102:27:15

guilty by association seems worthy

of fresh examination, especially

2:27:152:27:20

when it was the Supreme Court that

ruled that the law had taken a wrong

2:27:202:27:24

turn. It certainly did for the

Johnson brothers. They want a fresh

2:27:242:27:29

hearing with that evidence presented

in the light of the Jogee ruling but

2:27:292:27:35

they have been denied. I cannot know

all the facts and like every

2:27:352:27:38

colleague, I do all I can to support

the police in a difficult job they

2:27:382:27:44

do, but something here does not feel

right. In conclusion, Jengba calling

2:27:442:27:51

for the abolition of parasitic

accessory liability charging, CPS

2:27:512:27:56

guidance is still very confusing, as

my honourable friend from Manchester

2:27:562:28:00

Central explained in her excellent

speech, they are calling for the

2:28:002:28:05

abolition of child life sentences

and for the Ministry of Justice to

2:28:052:28:08

collect data on all joint enterprise

secondary party convictions.

2:28:082:28:18

Is this is a common-law used against

common people that makes no common

2:28:182:28:21

sense. I have to say, I believe they

have a very strong case.

Thank you,

2:28:212:28:28

Madam Deputy Speaker I would also

like to congratulate the members for

2:28:282:28:31

Manchester Central, Bromley in

Chislehurst, Sutton Coldfield and

2:28:312:28:37

Tottenham for bringing this debate,

and also to the backbench business

2:28:372:28:41

committee for enabling us to have

this time today. I also represent

2:28:412:28:47

some of the family of Alex Henry, as

my colleague from Ealing North went

2:28:472:28:56

into in some detail. Alex was

involved in a fatal street fight in

2:28:562:29:00

2013 and has spent four years in

prison, serving 19 years on the

2:29:002:29:04

joint enterprise. His mother is my

constituent and last October I met

2:29:042:29:09

her, Alex's sister Charlotte, and my

honourable friend from Ealing North,

2:29:092:29:16

and the honourable member for Sutton

Coldfield, where I really came to

2:29:162:29:21

understand the importance and

significance of joint enterprise and

2:29:212:29:23

the need to review the law. So, in

August 2013, Alex Henry went

2:29:232:29:29

shopping with three friends. A

confrontation took place that lasted

2:29:292:29:35

just over 42nd. It's not clear why

it took place. It may have been

2:29:352:29:40

triggered by staring. One young man

produced a knife from within the bag

2:29:402:29:45

-- it took just over 40 seconds. The

man with a knife pleaded to delete

2:29:452:29:54

the guilty to murder and GBH with

intent and was sentenced to 22

2:29:542:29:59

years. Alex Henry received 19 years,

despite never touching the knife

2:29:592:30:06

being aware of its existence, only

format years less. Since his

2:30:062:30:12

conviction, his family have

campaigned tirelessly with JENGbA,

2:30:122:30:17

the Joint Enterprise Not Guilty by

Association, to reform the law of

2:30:172:30:20

joint enterprise. The injustice was

that to be found guilty, the Crown

2:30:202:30:28

needed to prove that the defendant

had inflicted the fatal harm. Under

2:30:282:30:36

joint enterprise, the crowd only

need to prove that the defendant

2:30:362:30:39

foresaw the possibility that the

crime might happen, rather than

2:30:392:30:42

intend and know that it would

happen. It means it is easier to

2:30:422:30:46

prove the guilt of the accessory

compared to the principal offender.

2:30:462:30:50

In Alex's case, the Crown needed to

prove that Alex foresaw the

2:30:502:30:55

possibility that the stabbing might

happen rather than intend and know

2:30:552:30:58

it would happen. There was no

evidence in his case that he knew

2:30:582:31:01

about the knife and therefore that

someone might be stabbed. However,

2:31:012:31:05

the crowd persuaded the jury by

arguing that friends tell each other

2:31:052:31:10

everything. Therefore, Alex must

have known that the other man in

2:31:102:31:13

possession of the knife that they...

And Alex must have seen the

2:31:132:31:23

possibility of its use if any

altercation were to arise during the

2:31:232:31:26

course of the shopping trip. Friends

tell each other everything,

2:31:262:31:31

therefore it could have been

foreseen. What a shocking indictment

2:31:312:31:34

of the way the law works, to lock up

a young man for so long. In February

2:31:342:31:40

2016, the joint enterprise law was

successfully reformed, as we have

2:31:402:31:44

heard. Rather than foresight, the

Crown only need to prove that the

2:31:442:31:48

defendant intentionally encouraged

or assisted the principal offender

2:31:482:31:52

while knowing the crime would take

place. The law has convicted

2:31:522:31:56

thousands of men, women and

children, 800 of whom are being

2:31:562:32:00

supported by JENGbA. The courts have

ruled that the change in the law

2:32:002:32:03

will have no automatic retrospective

effect for out of time appeals,

2:32:032:32:10

which is every case convicted 28

days or more before the change in

2:32:102:32:13

the law. Instead, those out of time

appeals will only be afforded an

2:32:132:32:18

appeal if the defender can prove

there has been a substantial

2:32:182:32:21

injustice in his case, which means

proving that the change in law would

2:32:212:32:24

without doubt have made a

difference. In 2016, -- the

2:32:242:32:36

evidential bar has not been raised

by Jogee. Proof of the defendant's

2:32:362:32:43

intent to encourage, coupled with

his knowledge that the crime would

2:32:432:32:46

happen, can be inferred from the

friendship of the co-defendants, the

2:32:462:32:51

same weight foresight was inferred

before Jogee. If nothing more

2:32:512:32:56

evidentially needs to be shown since

the change in law, how can a

2:32:562:33:00

defendant prove that the change in

law would have made a difference?

2:33:002:33:05

Comparatively, those suffering need

only show that the conviction was

2:33:052:33:13

unsafe and that that... So far, no

out of time case has succeeded on

2:33:132:33:20

appeal, including that of Alex,

which was also rejected. My

2:33:202:33:23

honourable friend from Tottenham in

his excellent report on black and

2:33:232:33:31

minority ethnic people in the

justice system quite rightly shone a

2:33:312:33:35

light on the unacceptable inequality

is, for young people particularly

2:33:352:33:43

from those communities. There are

two other factors at play which I

2:33:432:33:47

think are relevant in joint

enterprise. That of maturity, and

2:33:472:33:50

many of the people convicted are not

within full maturity. The justice

2:33:502:33:59

system is beginning slowly to

understand that young men under 25

2:33:592:34:03

are not mature and need to be

considered slightly differently in

2:34:032:34:06

legal cases. Majority must be a

factor. The other factor is that of

2:34:062:34:12

autism. In Alex Henry's case, his

diagnosis of autism is important.

2:34:122:34:22

Despite having many problems for an

early age, no one had suggested to

2:34:222:34:29

Alex's family or to him that he

might be on the spectrum until a few

2:34:292:34:34

of the documentary made about the

case wrote to the family. The family

2:34:342:34:40

then arranged for Alex to be

assessed by Professor Simon Baron

2:34:402:34:46

Cohen, the leading academic on

autism and Asperger's syndrome in

2:34:462:34:49

this country. His report on Alex

states it is incredibly unlikely

2:34:492:34:55

that Alex could have foreseen what

would or might have happened in

2:34:552:34:59

those 40 seconds since due to his

autism he cannot predict the

2:34:592:35:03

actions, behaviours or intentions of

others. The Court of Appeal rejected

2:35:032:35:07

this because Alex's mother has a

Ph.D. In psychology, so she could

2:35:072:35:12

have coached Alex in how to act

autistic. This is all... Shocking.

2:35:122:35:19

The Court also said they couldn't

understand why Alex was diagnosed so

2:35:192:35:23

late in life despite several

previous assessments which did not

2:35:232:35:29

result in a diagnosis.

I want to

very strongly support what the

2:35:292:35:34

honourable lady is saying about the

judgment of the court in respect of

2:35:342:35:41

autism in that case. I have read the

case, and I find, as a layman, the

2:35:412:35:46

response of the court completely

inexplicable.

Thank you so much to

2:35:462:35:52

the honourable member because

anybody who has had any contact with

2:35:522:35:55

people, particularly adults,

diagnosed with autism, we know often

2:35:552:36:01

that autism is not diagnosed earlier

many people go through many

2:36:012:36:05

difficulties in their life before

the diagnosis is found, if ever. And

2:36:052:36:09

Alex was one of those unlucky in

this situation. So, because autism

2:36:092:36:14

is an invisible disorder, many

assessments found traits of autism,

2:36:142:36:21

as highlighted in Professor Baron

Cohen's report. This could be a

2:36:212:36:26

factor in many appeals. The refusal

on Alex's appeal has left the family

2:36:262:36:33

devastated. They are determined to

see that he is proved innocent. In

2:36:332:36:40

their view, he is not a murderer,

and in my view too, from what I know

2:36:402:36:44

of the case. So, how many people in

prison under joint enterprise have

2:36:442:36:51

undiagnosed autism? We need to look

at this as well. Anyway, since

2:36:512:36:57

Alex's appeal was rejected, his

sister applied to challenge the

2:36:572:37:00

substantial injustice at the Supreme

Court, and his family are also

2:37:002:37:04

taking his case to the European

Court of Human Rights. They believe

2:37:042:37:09

that joint enterprise breach Article

seven of the unique -- EC HR. Those

2:37:092:37:18

convicted under joint enterprise

were not convicted under a true law,

2:37:182:37:21

so their presumption of innocence

under article six remains. I now

2:37:212:37:34

have the pleasure, the honour, to

sit on the justice committee. In

2:37:342:37:39

October, the committee wrote to the

chair of the Law Commission to

2:37:392:37:43

assess it -- to suggest it would be

of value to review the law of joint

2:37:432:37:46

enterprise given the lack of legal

clarity, particularly on how

2:37:462:37:52

jewellery is should be directed on

the question of intention.

2:37:522:37:58

Unfortunately, the final version of

the 13th programme of the review

2:37:582:38:04

admits any work on joint enterprise,

but I know that the chair of the

2:38:042:38:10

justice committee will continue to

push these points.

I'm sure the

2:38:102:38:15

committee will want to pursue that

point. Of course, there was nothing

2:38:152:38:20

to stop the Government themselves

asking the Law Commission to carry

2:38:202:38:24

out a review, as has happened a

number of times in the past.

Like

2:38:242:38:29

the loaded and honourable member, I

also look forward to the ministerial

2:38:292:38:32

response today. The justice

committee also wrote to the DPP, as

2:38:322:38:38

we already have, suggesting

clarification on the intention of

2:38:382:38:41

the defendant. I support the calls

by my honourable friend from

2:38:412:38:48

Manchester Central. Clear demands,

proportionality, the need for proper

2:38:482:38:56

data, a review of the CPS guidance,

and a review of older cases. All of

2:38:562:39:02

these are essential, and we look

forward to the response of the

2:39:022:39:05

Minister on those issues. For the

sake of Alex and the thousands of

2:39:052:39:12

others imprisoned under joint

enterprise, and their loved ones, I

2:39:122:39:15

support the cause of colleagues

across this Has that this injustice

2:39:152:39:19

be rectified. Let's correct the

wrong, and if we really want is to

2:39:192:39:25

address knife crime, let's learn

from those places that have actually

2:39:252:39:27

brought it down.

I had the privilege

of working with JENGbA for seven or

2:39:272:39:38

eight years, I am pleased that they

are now located in my constituency.

2:39:382:39:42

But I am sorry that we have not made

more progress. When I say we, I mean

2:39:422:39:47

we in this House. I also include the

Government in that. JENGbA

2:39:472:39:52

themselves have an outstanding

record in representing 800 families

2:39:522:39:57

in relation to these very difficult

cases. I have a number of

2:39:572:40:06

constituents who are serving long

sentences, who were convicted before

2:40:062:40:11

the Jogee judgment and therefore are

potentially subject to review. Let

2:40:112:40:17

me just say before going on to this

point is, these aren't easy matters.

2:40:172:40:25

We also, I'm sure, all our

constituents who have been the

2:40:252:40:28

victims of violent crimes, and we

are concerned that people are

2:40:282:40:37

punished as long as they are

punished suitably for crimes they

2:40:372:40:40

have committed. There are some

famous cases - Gary new love,

2:40:402:40:48

Stephen Lawrence - in which joint

enterprise played a part in the

2:40:482:40:51

convictions, and it is only human

nature that when serious offences

2:40:512:40:56

are committed, particularly murder,

where there are victims and grieving

2:40:562:40:59

families, to want to bring people to

justice. The difficulty has arisen

2:40:592:41:03

because particularly when there are

large gangs or groups, it is

2:41:032:41:08

actually more difficult to identify

who the actual perpetrators are.

2:41:082:41:15

Therefore, the danger of miscarriage

of justice is all the greater.

2:41:152:41:18

Several members have referred to the

history of what has been variously

2:41:182:41:26

called Common purpose, secondary

liability or joint enterprise. The

2:41:262:41:29

member for Ealing North said it was

conceived as a development in common

2:41:292:41:35

law to deal with the social evil of

dualling is, almost as a matter of

2:41:352:41:40

public policy rather than law. We

had leading cases such as swindler

2:41:402:41:46

and Osborne, an 1846 case about two

cart drivers, one of whom is killed

2:41:462:41:54

a pedestrian in a race. It is easy

to say in those sorts of cases how

2:41:542:41:58

one can attach guilt to the person

who is not the primary perpetrator.

2:41:582:42:04

The member for Ealing North also

referred to another case. There were

2:42:042:42:12

many factors in that case, a very

celebrated case. It is 65 years on

2:42:122:42:17

Sunday since the execution, 25 years

since it was -- since he was

2:42:172:42:28

pardoned and 20 years since the

conviction was quashed. These are

2:42:282:42:35

cases which, however they were

resolved, it is fairly easy to see

2:42:352:42:41

that the principle of joint

enterprise was at work.

2:42:412:42:47

What we are dealing with now is

several factors have changed, the

2:42:472:42:52

huge preponderance of people from

black and minority ethnic

2:42:522:42:55

communities who are convicted, the

number of young people convicted,

2:42:552:42:59

simply the numbers, the numbers of

people engaged, it is wrong to say

2:42:592:43:05

there has not been a lot of

attention paid to that issue. It is

2:43:052:43:09

a question of what that outcomes

have been. We heard from the

2:43:092:43:13

chairman of the Justice Select

Committee and he and his

2:43:132:43:16

predecessors have produced a number

of very telling reports into this

2:43:162:43:21

issue. Although they may be

imperfect still, the CPS guidelines

2:43:212:43:25

have been reviewed and of course we

have had Jogee. The outcome of

2:43:252:43:31

Jogee, not that we have seen the

judgment, it is perhaps unsurprising

2:43:312:43:39

because as my friend said, the

mental test for secondary

2:43:392:43:43

participation is lower before Jogee

than for the primary offender. --

2:43:432:43:51

now that we have seen Jogee. That

has changed. There is the

2:43:512:43:56

possibility of review. I think the

courts... There is the issue of

2:43:562:44:05

floodgates, will they suddenly, by

correcting the law, have a huge

2:44:052:44:14

number of cases to review? Many

members have said, so be it, that

2:44:142:44:19

will have to take place, but it does

really come to government to decide

2:44:192:44:23

how that is going to be dealt with.

I'm afraid that government has been

2:44:232:44:29

wanting. After Jogee, in November,

2016, the then Minister wrote to the

2:44:292:44:40

Justice Select Committee and said,

we have concluded no further review

2:44:402:44:43

of the law is necessary at this

time. But as I understand it, that

2:44:432:44:52

is their position. That is wrong, we

need to have a review. It is not

2:44:522:44:57

easy. But it is a complex and

difficult offence. It is not easy

2:44:572:45:02

because there are arguments on both

sides. But the law gets itself in a

2:45:022:45:07

mess exactly in these areas.

Certainly between 2010 and 2015, one

2:45:072:45:13

of the things I was urging my own

party to do if they came to power

2:45:132:45:19

was to look at some of the very

difficult issues. I also think

2:45:192:45:26

homicide needs to be looked at.

Often these are common law offences

2:45:262:45:31

that have developed over a period of

time but are not fit for purpose in

2:45:312:45:35

the modern world. I say to the

Minister and I hope we will hear

2:45:352:45:38

some positive answers from her today

that we do need to review the law in

2:45:382:45:43

this area. They cannot just be left

to the courts or prosecuting

2:45:432:45:48

authorities to do. Sooner or later,

is whether this government or a

2:45:482:45:52

future government, it will have to

be done. Final point, the general

2:45:522:45:56

point, on evidence and statistics. I

cannot believe that we are not

2:45:562:46:05

collecting proper statistics on this

at the moment. It is clear from what

2:46:052:46:09

statistics are available but there

are a very high proportion of people

2:46:092:46:13

convicted of homicide offences on

the bases of joint enterprise. Some

2:46:132:46:17

estimates say it is approaching 50%

of those who are sentenced. I ask

2:46:172:46:22

that very question two years ago

exactly to the Secretary of State

2:46:222:46:30

for Justice, how many people have

been convicted under joint

2:46:302:46:33

enterprise since 2010 each year? The

answer was that the information is

2:46:332:46:37

not held centrally and could only be

obtained at disproportionate cost.

2:46:372:46:41

Again, that is quite wrong. If we

are to sensibly deal with difficult

2:46:412:46:48

and sensitive matters, we have to

have the facts. I say to the

2:46:482:46:52

Minister, it would be wonderful to

hear from today that there will be a

2:46:522:46:55

review and that the Government is

going to refer this to the

2:46:552:46:59

commission, as the Justice Select

Committee as indicated. It would be

2:46:592:47:04

welcome to hear from her that there

will be a proper collection of

2:47:042:47:08

statistics we have a sound basis on

which to look at the reform.

Thank

2:47:082:47:15

you. Can I start also by

congratulating the honourable member

2:47:152:47:20

for Manchester and colleagues who

deserve great credit for bringing

2:47:202:47:24

this debate? And posing a number of

challenging questions. The

2:47:242:47:28

consequences of this Jogee decision

include uncertainty and distress for

2:47:282:47:33

victims and relatives who wonder

whether those held responsible for

2:47:332:47:37

violent crimes will have sentences

quashed and the honourable member

2:47:372:47:43

for Sutton Caulfield and others

rightly reflected on that. On the

2:47:432:47:45

other hand, we are agreed the

so-called wrong turn in the law

2:47:452:47:49

means there have been many

miscarriages of justice and people

2:47:492:47:54

have been convicted and sentenced

for crimes far graver than those

2:47:542:47:58

which should have been held

responsible for. It has thrown up,

2:47:582:48:03

as thanks to the excellent work of

the honourable member for Tottenham,

2:48:032:48:07

it's disproportionate effects on

young men from black and ethnic

2:48:072:48:12

minority communities. It has been

explained why the decision of the

2:48:122:48:17

Privy Council in the 1985 case was

wrong and required to be corrected

2:48:172:48:23

by the Supreme Court. For me the

correction throws up three discrete

2:48:232:48:27

questions. It is clear the law after

1985 has been wrongly applied and

2:48:272:48:32

resulted in real injustices. The

first question is, is the law on

2:48:322:48:37

joint enterprise and parasitic

accessory liability now operating as

2:48:372:48:42

we want it? How should the criminal

law respond when a person engages in

2:48:422:48:47

a joint enterprise with a principal

who goes on to commit a serious

2:48:472:48:50

offence outside of the scope of the

enterprise? On paper the Jogee

2:48:502:48:54

decision is better than what was in

place beforehand. Honourable members

2:48:542:48:59

across the House have raised serious

concerns about whether it is

2:48:592:49:03

operating effectively in practice or

as parliament would desire it.

2:49:032:49:10

Examples have been given of judicial

reasoning that give real cause for

2:49:102:49:15

concern. The variety of situations

in which joint enterprise might

2:49:152:49:18

arise and the different views of

culpability that followed that are

2:49:182:49:23

many and varied. Many members have

focused on how it affects young

2:49:232:49:27

people in gangs in particular and

there have been powerful arguments

2:49:272:49:31

for reform especially from

honourable members for Ealing North

2:49:312:49:34

and Tottenham. It arises also in

many other circumstances and we need

2:49:342:49:38

to look for a solution which can

respond adequately to all these

2:49:382:49:43

different facts and circumstances. A

related issue is sentencing. I

2:49:432:49:49

simply ask, does the fact of having

mandatory sentences in some cases

2:49:492:49:54

mean punishments cannot reflect the

different levels of culpability,

2:49:542:49:57

principal and accessory, and is that

also an area that might require

2:49:572:50:03

reform? Finally, serious questions

around appeal rights which the

2:50:032:50:06

honourable member spoke eloquently

about. The decision in the 1985 case

2:50:062:50:14

had been a statute and reflected the

role of Parliament and amended and

2:50:142:50:18

replaced in 2016, then there would

have been possibility of those

2:50:182:50:22

convicted between having a right to

appeal. As the honourable member for

2:50:222:50:25

Tottenham says, it is a very

different situation, common law, and

2:50:252:50:29

the Supreme Court says the law was

applied wrongly by the courts and

2:50:292:50:33

people have been convicted for

crimes they did not commit and

2:50:332:50:36

cannot possibly be right that no

challenges to those convictions have

2:50:362:50:40

been successful. There is a strong

case that appeals against the

2:50:402:50:45

decisions, that the bar has been set

too high. Difficult issues, it has

2:50:452:50:49

been useful for MPs to air their

views but I cannot help but agree

2:50:492:50:54

with the chair of the Justice Select

Committee that a thorough review is

2:50:542:50:58

required, the work is urgent,

otherwise we will have to return to

2:50:582:51:01

this issue in the very near future.

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

2:51:012:51:09

want to congratulate the honourable

member for Manchester Central, the

2:51:092:51:13

right honourable member for Sutton

Coldfield, the honourable member for

2:51:132:51:16

Bromley, and the right honourable

member for Tottenham for securing

2:51:162:51:20

this very important debate on joint

enterprise. I also want to pay

2:51:202:51:24

tribute to the campaign group Jengba

for highlighting concerns with this

2:51:242:51:28

law over many years contributing to

the Supreme Court ruling in 2016

2:51:282:51:31

that the law had taken a wrong turn.

We have heard from many excellent

2:51:312:51:37

and passionate speeches today and I

want to touch on some of the

2:51:372:51:39

speakers. The honourable lady from

Manchester Central who set out very

2:51:392:51:48

eloquently and combines of leader

issues in this debate. And the right

2:51:482:51:54

honourable member who talked with

the family of the victim and also

2:51:542:51:58

about the miscarriages of justice

and the very important point he make

2:51:582:52:01

about distinguishing between groups

and gangs and the honourable member

2:52:012:52:11

for who said that miscarriages of

justice must be dealt with and the

2:52:112:52:17

families of victims must not be

ignored. And the honourable member

2:52:172:52:23

for Bromley, talked about the need

for pressing the Government for

2:52:232:52:26

legal reforms and the importance of

correct charges and sentenced

2:52:262:52:30

proportionate to the acts carried

out. Honourable member for Ealing

2:52:302:52:34

North who in his characteristic

passionate oratory skill contributed

2:52:342:52:40

to this space and talked about his

constituent Alex Henry, as did

2:52:402:52:46

another honourable member. And of

course, I have to obviously

2:52:462:52:51

complement the honourable member for

Bolton West, my adjoining

2:52:512:52:55

constituency member, the points he

made and specifically about the

2:52:552:52:58

guidance of prosecutors who are

involved in making these decisions

2:52:582:53:01

as to what charges should follow.

And of course, the right honourable

2:53:012:53:06

member for Tottenham who made an

incredibly powerful speech about how

2:53:062:53:11

this law has been applied in reality

in certain situations. I think it is

2:53:112:53:19

accepted by everyone that the law

regarding joint liability is complex

2:53:192:53:24

and the Justice Select Committee in

2012 of which I was a member carried

2:53:242:53:30

out an inquiry into the operation of

the joint enterprise and in 2014 the

2:53:302:53:37

committee revisited this issue to

see what had occurred. Both of the

2:53:372:53:41

reports dealt with the status of the

law and that application of the law

2:53:412:53:46

before the Jogee case reached the

Supreme Court whether judgment was

2:53:462:53:51

founded in February, 2016. Although

the Justice Select Committee report

2:53:512:53:56

predates this judgment, much of the

background information and analysis

2:53:562:54:02

contained remains useful. They

explained that joint enterprise is a

2:54:022:54:04

form of secondary liability by a

person who agrees to commit a crime

2:54:042:54:09

with another and becomes liable for

all criminal acts committed by the

2:54:092:54:13

other person. The principal

offender. In the course of the joint

2:54:132:54:18

criminal venture. The Justice Select

Committee then suggested that the

2:54:182:54:23

Director of Public Prosecutions

issue guidance of the use of this

2:54:232:54:26

doctrine when charging and in

particular they wanted guidance on

2:54:262:54:30

the relationship between Association

and complicity. I will return to the

2:54:302:54:35

clarity of the law shortly as it

remains concerning for many members

2:54:352:54:39

even after the Jogee case. In terms

of -- victims of crime are at the

2:54:392:54:45

centre of Labour's approach to

justice. We must have faith in the

2:54:452:54:50

justice system and to achieve that

the justice system must deliver

2:54:502:54:54

certainty. Labour is also clear that

where there are substantial

2:54:542:54:58

injustices arising from the

application of the law of joint

2:54:582:55:02

enterprise, before the case of

Jogee, these should be addressed as

2:55:022:55:05

well. Jogee is reasonably described

as a landmark court judgment. It

2:55:052:55:11

established the law on joint

enterprise had been misinterpreted

2:55:112:55:14

and the criminal court for three

decades. The ruling turned on the

2:55:142:55:18

judgment that an individual or

seeing possible crime does not

2:55:182:55:24

equate to automatic authorisation of

it as the law has been interpreted

2:55:242:55:28

in previous cases -- foreseeing. A

higher threshold of proof is now

2:55:282:55:33

required. It is welcomed the Supreme

Court clarified that application of

2:55:332:55:37

the law of joint enterprise. The

judgment have also set out the

2:55:372:55:42

criteria by which potential

miscarriages of justice can be

2:55:422:55:45

addressed where a substantial

injustice has occurred. Subsequent

2:55:452:55:50

judgments following the Supreme

Court ruling relating to joint

2:55:502:55:56

enterprise appeals have developed

the argument around the nature of

2:55:562:55:59

the substantial injustice. And the

judgment in joint enterprise cases

2:55:592:56:04

since Jogee have explained why the

law must provide for certainty. It

2:56:042:56:08

is clearly in the public interest

that convictions are not

2:56:082:56:12

automatically reopened when the

judge later developed the law. To

2:56:122:56:17

reopen all cases would undermine the

certainty of conviction and would

2:56:172:56:20

deny closure to victim 's' families

and in the case of Johnson it was

2:56:202:56:24

stated according to the appeal case

that they need to establish

2:56:242:56:30

substantial injustice results from

the wider public interest in legal

2:56:302:56:34

certainty and the finality of

decisions made in accordance with

2:56:342:56:37

the then clearly established law. It

also must take into account the

2:56:372:56:42

interests of the victim 's and the

family of the victim and in

2:56:422:56:45

particular where deaths have

resulted an closure is particularly

2:56:452:56:52

important. We are clear victims of

crime and their families must have

2:56:522:56:54

confidence in the system. In the

same way, it is also vital that

2:56:542:56:59

victims of miscarriages of justice

have opportunities to have their

2:56:592:57:01

cases heard as well. Without those

opportunities, we would risk

2:57:012:57:07

injustices being permitted to

continue. Those who believe

2:57:072:57:11

miscarriages of justice have been

committed art of the opinion that

2:57:112:57:15

the question of how substantial

injustices defined has not been

2:57:152:57:20

developed. It is right more clarity

is needed for the vital question and

2:57:202:57:26

hopefully today's debate has

contributed to that.

2:57:262:57:32

At we welcome the news that the

Crown prosecution the search --

2:57:322:57:37

service is renewing their guidance,

and we hope that it will provide

2:57:372:57:40

more certainty and clarity for

victims and the wider public. Many

2:57:402:57:43

members of the public will be

surprised to know that there are no

2:57:432:57:49

official statistics available on

joint enterprise convictions. This

2:57:492:57:51

can make it difficult to assess how

big an impact the changes in the law

2:57:512:58:00

have had in practice. Two years ago,

my honourable friend the member for

2:58:002:58:06

Hammersmith asked the Secretary of

State for Justice are many people

2:58:062:58:08

have been convicted under the joint

enterprise arrangement since 2010. A

2:58:082:58:13

similar request was also made by the

Justice select committee of the

2:58:132:58:19

2010-15 Parliament. The Government

response was that this information

2:58:192:58:23

was not held centrally and could

only be obtained at disproportionate

2:58:232:58:28

cost. This is plainly unsatisfactory

because it is a reasonable request

2:58:282:58:32

for information which would actually

shed a true light on the scale of

2:58:322:58:38

joint enterprise conviction. Can I

ask the Minister therefore that the

2:58:382:58:42

Government will take action to

rectify this urgently. The need for

2:58:422:58:46

keeping proper statistics would

greatly assist everyone, and the

2:58:462:58:52

fact that there are no official

statistics, though there is academic

2:58:522:59:00

research that suggests that the law

may have been applied in a

2:59:002:59:06

discriminatory way. Where such

profiling does exist, it is only...

2:59:062:59:15

In fact, the Justice select

committee report of 2014 said: It is

2:59:152:59:20

clear that a large proportion of

those convicted of joint enterprise

2:59:202:59:25

offences are young, black and

mixed-race men. In the Cambridge

2:59:252:59:31

research sample, 37.2% of those

serving very long sentences for

2:59:312:59:36

joint enterprise offences were black

British, 11 times the proportion of

2:59:362:59:44

the Black British population in the

general population, and almost three

2:59:442:59:49

times as many as in the overall

prison population. There was also a

2:59:492:59:56

much higher proportion of mixed race

prisoners convicted of joint

2:59:562:59:58

enterprise offences than the general

population. 15.5%, compared to 3.9%.

2:59:583:00:09

Evidence was also hurt by the

Justice committee that there had

3:00:093:00:12

been disproportionality. Doctor Ben

Crew from the Cambridge Institute of

3:00:123:00:18

criminology said that there were

probably two main reasons for the

3:00:183:00:23

disproportionate impact of joint

enterprise on young black men. The

3:00:233:00:27

first being that BME nine might be

overrepresented in the kind of

3:00:273:00:34

communities where young men

typically hang around in groups that

3:00:343:00:37

are labelled by outsiders as gangs.

Second, that an association may

3:00:373:00:43

exist unconsciously in the mind of

police, prosecutors and jewellery is

3:00:433:00:47

about being a young ethnic minority

mail and being in a gang, and

3:00:473:00:52

therefore being involved in forms of

urban violence. A point that many

3:00:523:00:58

members in the debate today have

alluded to. I want to come onto what

3:00:583:01:03

the Right Honourable member for

Tottenham had said, and also

3:01:033:01:09

acknowledge the work he has done in

the David Lammy review. In that

3:01:093:01:13

report, it states the two despite

the court ruling in Jogee, experts

3:01:133:01:21

in the field and remain concerned

about some of the practices around

3:01:213:01:24

joint enterprise. Many are not

convinced that the line between...

3:01:243:01:36

Are people must be tried on the

basis of evidence about their

3:01:363:01:40

actions, not their association, and

the evidence put before juries must

3:01:403:01:43

reflect this. This again further

demonstrates a need for published

3:01:433:01:52

statistics on offences of joint

enterprise. Again, we would ask that

3:01:523:01:57

the CPS take this opportunity to

rework its guidance on joint

3:01:573:02:05

enterprise to consider its approach

so that this and associated laws are

3:02:053:02:09

not implemented in a discriminatory

way, and that the prosecutors, when

3:02:093:02:15

deciding the appropriateness of the

charge, and who needs to be

3:02:153:02:19

prosecuted, that this guidance is

applied properly and fairly, and I

3:02:193:02:25

really have the Minister will take

this opportunity to do that today.

3:02:253:02:37

It was unforgivably remiss of me

earlier not to welcome my honourable

3:02:403:02:44

landlord and friend to her first

outing on the Government front

3:02:443:02:47

bench. The whole House will wish her

well in what will undoubtedly be the

3:02:473:02:52

start of a long and distinguished

ministerial career.

Minister...

I am

3:02:523:02:59

grateful to the honourable member

from Sutton Coldfield for his

3:02:593:03:01

comments, but I would like to start

by commending the member for

3:03:013:03:05

Manchester Central for securing this

debate on an issue which I know is

3:03:053:03:09

very close to her constituency and

to the heart, and also to the Right

3:03:093:03:14

Honourable and honourable members

from Sutton Coldfield, Bromley and

3:03:143:03:17

Chislehurst, and Tottenham for

supporting the motion today. I fully

3:03:173:03:22

recognise the importance of the law

in this area. When anyone is charged

3:03:223:03:26

and convicted of a crime, it will

have serious consequences for them,

3:03:263:03:30

their victims and their families.

This is especially the case where

3:03:303:03:34

the charge may be as serious as a

crime such as murder. I also

3:03:343:03:42

recognise the sensitivity of this

issue in circumstances where I am

3:03:423:03:45

aware, and many members today have

highlighted, that the youngest of

3:03:453:03:48

those that JENGbA support was 12

when he was charged with the fence,

3:03:483:03:55

which will obviously have a

significant impact on his life. I

3:03:553:03:58

would like to start, and I know many

members have identified what the

3:03:583:04:04

Supreme Court decided, but I think

it is important to set up those

3:04:043:04:07

principles because some members are

put forwards in the debate this

3:04:073:04:13

afternoon hypothetical circumstances

which might result in a conviction

3:04:133:04:17

for access reliability, and I'm not

sure all of them were right, so I

3:04:173:04:20

think it is important to be clear at

the outset what we're talking about

3:04:203:04:23

and to summarise a few of the point

in the Supreme Court's judgment in

3:04:233:04:28

Jogee, which was handed down in

February 20 16. This concerns are

3:04:283:04:32

very specific area of law on joint

enterprise, parasitic accessory

3:04:323:04:37

liability, rather than the law of

joint enterprise as a whole. Such

3:04:373:04:41

liability arose where two people

participated together in an offence,

3:04:413:04:47

for example, a burglary, and in the

course of that event, Person one

3:04:473:04:50

committed a second offence, for

example, he or she murdered a

3:04:503:04:54

security guard. Under the law as it

stood before Jogee, if the second

3:04:543:04:58

person foresaw that the first person

might act with the intention to kill

3:04:583:05:03

or cause real serious harm and

participated in the burglary

3:05:033:05:07

nonetheless, the second person would

be guilty of murder alongside the

3:05:073:05:10

first. In the second my judgment,

the Supreme Court judgment said that

3:05:103:05:16

this was wrong, as the motion

recognises. A person cannot be

3:05:163:05:21

guilty merely for seeing that an

accomplice might commit a second

3:05:213:05:24

offence during the course of the

original plan. Rather, the Supreme

3:05:243:05:28

Court held,... The effect of Jogee

means that in the cases of members

3:05:283:05:43

of gangs who are not the principal

perpetrators of the crime, they will

3:05:433:05:47

not necessarily be guilty of the

crime in question unless it can be

3:05:473:05:51

shown that they intentionally

encouraged or help the principal

3:05:513:05:55

perpetrator Robert crime. The

Supreme Court also held, and many

3:05:553:06:01

members have referred to it, that

offenders convicted under the old

3:06:013:06:05

test would only be granted

permission to appeal if they had

3:06:053:06:10

suffered substantial injustice. That

is the position that it stands as a

3:06:103:06:13

matter of law. I would like to make

another of points in response to the

3:06:133:06:16

points that are being made. Many

have been made, and in the short

3:06:163:06:20

time allotted, I'm afraid I won't be

able to respond to all of them and

3:06:203:06:24

will concentrate on those identified

in the motion itself. The first

3:06:243:06:28

point is that there has been a

suggestion that the number of cases

3:06:283:06:31

under joint enterprise has been

unchanged since the Supreme Court

3:06:313:06:38

judgment. The difficulty with that

argument, as the honourable member

3:06:383:06:41

for Bolton pointed out and other

members have identified, is that

3:06:413:06:46

there are no official statistics and

no official information to confirm

3:06:463:06:50

or deny that. A number of members

have criticised the Ministry of

3:06:503:06:55

Justice for not collecting the data,

and that is something I should say

3:06:553:07:01

that the Ministry of Justice are

looking at and maybe something that

3:07:013:07:05

is possible. The Ministry of Justice

are looking into it, I can confirm

3:07:053:07:14

the second point that has been made

is that there has not yet been a

3:07:143:07:17

successful appeal. I understand that

that might be extremely frustrating

3:07:173:07:21

to the parties, but this is not

because they've is no route to an

3:07:213:07:24

appeal. There is a system to

challenge any previous decision. It

3:07:243:07:29

is possible for appeals to be made

either by an individual, or an

3:07:293:07:33

individual can apply to the criminal

cases review commission to have

3:07:333:07:37

their cases reviewed by the Court of

Appeal. And indeed, a number of

3:07:373:07:40

cases have been brought. There is

also a criticism that they have been

3:07:403:07:45

brought but have been unsuccessful.

There was also criticism of the

3:07:453:07:49

threshold that the Court of Appeal

applies in relation to substantial

3:07:493:07:52

injustice. This is not a new test

brought in by the Supreme Court in

3:07:523:07:57

relation to Jogee. This is a long

applied test that the Court of

3:07:573:08:02

Appeal uses in relation to out of

time appeals. The key point that is

3:08:023:08:09

advanced in relation to the motion

before the Has the day is that there

3:08:093:08:13

is a need for legislation. I would

like to identify a few points about

3:08:133:08:17

why it might not be appropriate to

bring forward legislation at this

3:08:173:08:20

stage. The first is, the law on

joint enterprise, as many members

3:08:203:08:27

have said, is not set out in

statute. It has evolved through

3:08:273:08:32

caselaw. Some criticism was made

obvious by the honourable member,

3:08:323:08:35

the Right Honourable member for

Tottenham. The evolution of law

3:08:353:08:39

through the courts has always been

an important part of our common law

3:08:393:08:43

justice system. In our law, the

common law has equal weight with

3:08:433:08:47

that made by statute. No judge in

Jogee identified a need for

3:08:473:08:52

Parliament to change the law.

Indeed, the honourable member for

3:08:523:08:55

Manchester Central accepted today

and previously that the Supreme

3:08:553:09:00

Court ruling said its out that it

was the responsibility of the court

3:09:003:09:04

to put the law right. Many members

in this House have accepted that the

3:09:043:09:08

law set down by the Supreme Court is

right. What some of them have

3:09:083:09:14

identified is that it is the

implementation of that decision that

3:09:143:09:19

has flaws. I would like to draw in a

few points related to that. As some

3:09:193:09:24

members have referred to, the CPS

has already amended its guidance. It

3:09:243:09:28

is currently operating on guidance

in line with the Supreme Court

3:09:283:09:33

decision. More importantly, it has

consulted on revised guidance for

3:09:333:09:39

use by prosecutors. I know that the

honourable mentor for -- member for

3:09:393:09:46

Manchester Central has contributed

that, which is to be commended, and

3:09:463:09:49

I am told that the CPS aims to

publish a summary of their response

3:09:493:09:53

to the consultation and the final

version of their guidance in the

3:09:533:09:57

early part of this year. Many

members have rightly identified the

3:09:573:10:03

disproportionate number of BME

defendants in these cases, and I am

3:10:033:10:09

very pleased that the CPS has

confirmed that the revised guidance

3:10:093:10:12

will take account of the Langley

recommendations which task the CPS

3:10:123:10:17

to take the opportunity while

reworking its guidance on joint

3:10:173:10:21

emphasise to consider its approach

the gang prosecutions in general.

3:10:213:10:25

This CPS has also revised its

internal resources on gangs in the

3:10:253:10:30

light of the recommendations

resulting from the Langley review.

3:10:303:10:33

Finally, whilst the motion calls for

clarity in relation to the law, it

3:10:333:10:39

does not identify what that lack of

clarity is, or how the law could be

3:10:393:10:43

improved. Indeed, as I have

already... I will take an

3:10:433:10:51

intervention in a moment. As the

honourable member for Manchester

3:10:513:10:55

Central has said, what is needed is

for the Supreme Court judgment to be

3:10:553:10:59

followed. There is no suggestion

that the law itself needs changing.

3:10:593:11:04

It just needs to be in force.

I am

grateful to my honourable and

3:11:043:11:08

learned friend. I think many of us

would say that it is that the

3:11:083:11:13

doctrine of joint enterprise needs

to be put on a statutory basis, it

3:11:133:11:19

is operation in relation to the log

homicide, and it is the law of

3:11:193:11:25

homicide that would itself benefit

from having a statue to review, and

3:11:253:11:30

that would give us an opportunity to

deal with the anomalies of joint

3:11:303:11:34

enterprise in the homicide context.

I think that's what we're looking

3:11:343:11:36

for.

Well, the honourable member is

very prescient, because I was about

3:11:363:11:42

to go on to the broader points that

were made during the debate. That

3:11:423:11:46

was one which he raced in his own

speech before the House, and I know

3:11:463:11:51

he has raised it in the past in

relation to the select committee.

3:11:513:11:55

That is something, as a new

minister, that I am happy to look

3:11:553:11:59

at. As indeed other broader

points... Not to look at, to

3:11:593:12:05

consider, in due course. Other

broader points were made. The

3:12:053:12:09

honourable member for Sutton

Coldfield is also mentioned issues

3:12:093:12:14

of disclosure which I know are being

looked at by the Attorney General.

3:12:143:12:17

There were many points raised, and I

will happily address them when time

3:12:173:12:25

allows. Coming back to the precise

motion in this House, I recognise

3:12:253:12:32

the importance of the law on joint

enterprise. The impact that it can

3:12:323:12:38

have on those, such as the

constituents of the honourable

3:12:383:12:41

member for Manchester Central and

those others that have come before

3:12:413:12:45

the House today, but for the reasons

set out, the Government does not

3:12:453:12:48

believe that time is currently right

for any changes to the law on joint

3:12:483:12:52

enterprise. It is for the courts to

interpret the law as laid down by

3:12:523:12:57

the Supreme Court. I very much hope

that the revised guidance on second

3:12:573:13:02

reliability will provide a clear

direction and guidance for

3:13:023:13:05

prosecutors on this area of law. And

I am happy to keep the matter under

3:13:053:13:09

review. In those circumstances, I

invite the House to reject the

3:13:093:13:15

motion.

3:13:153:13:20

Notwithstanding the Minister's

response, I think what everybody

3:13:203:13:23

watching this debate today can take

away from this House is that there

3:13:233:13:29

is a clear and unified view of

Parliament, that the law has indeed

3:13:293:13:33

got it wrong and that it needs to be

put right. I would suggest judging

3:13:333:13:39

on today's debate that there would

be a parliamentary majority to do

3:13:393:13:44

just that. But in the meantime, I

would ask that all of those watching

3:13:443:13:50

here today, the prosecutors, Appeal

Court judges, police and others,

3:13:503:13:55

start putting it right themselves.

And we will take forward as a

3:13:553:13:59

cross-party group how we now might

put further pressure on the

3:13:593:14:02

Government and work with the

Government to do just that. I think

3:14:023:14:07

very briefly there is clear

consensus around proportionality,

3:14:073:14:10

the gangs versus groups, the CPS

guidance which I think the initial

3:14:103:14:17

interim guidance was itself actually

further problematic and a wider

3:14:173:14:22

homicide review, and critically, a

very broad consensus on the

3:14:223:14:27

retrospective cases and the

substantial injustice test which is

3:14:273:14:31

not allowing unsafe convictions to

come forward and it is critical that

3:14:313:14:36

we are able to take into account

that age, maturity, mental

3:14:363:14:43

well-being and potential

disabilities of some of those. There

3:14:433:14:44

has been historic debate today and I

know many watching will feel it is a

3:14:443:14:52

very important debate. We will not

stop here. I hear what the minister

3:14:523:14:55

says and I disagree with some of

what she says but we will continue

3:14:553:14:59

to press the Government to take

further action.

Thank you. The

3:14:593:15:04

question is as on the order paper.

As many as are of the opinion, say

3:15:043:15:07

"aye". To the contrary, "no" the

ayes have it. We now come to the

3:15:073:15:12

backbench motion on prescription of

the book a 15 minute opening.

Thank

3:15:123:15:24

you. I beg to move that this House

believes it is a terrorist

3:15:243:15:30

organisation that seeks the

destruction of Israel. It declares

3:15:303:15:34

itself to be an organisation without

distinguishable political or

3:15:343:15:38

military wings, the military wing of

that organisation is prescribed, but

3:15:383:15:44

its political wing is not, and calls

on the Government to include it in

3:15:443:15:50

its entirety, Hezbollah, on the list

of proscribed organisations.

I am

3:15:503:15:55

very grateful and I'm very pleased

my friend is bringing this issue to

3:15:553:15:59

the House. I do not know if she is

aware but in December, the

3:15:593:16:05

Government had a debate on the

extension of proscribed

3:16:053:16:12

organisations and in that debate,

the minister told me that the

3:16:123:16:18

military organisation of Hezbollah

was not prescribed but if Hezbollah

3:16:183:16:23

supporters were engaged in terrorist

activities in this country, they

3:16:233:16:27

would be prosecuted. Though sheer

greed terrorist activities are not

3:16:273:16:31

sufficient grounds for prosecution,

there should be prosecution for

3:16:313:16:35

incitement to hatred, anti-Semitism

and the other crimes which are

3:16:353:16:40

taking place on the streets of

London? As the May of London has

3:16:403:16:48

called for, Hezbollah should be

banned.

I absolutely agree and I

3:16:483:16:52

thank him for that intervention

which I take as absolutely 100%

3:16:523:16:56

support for this motion today. Mr

Deputy Speaker, and the chair of

3:16:563:17:02

Labour friends of Israel,

campaigning for many years on the

3:17:023:17:05

issue I will address and stands

before us today. Hezbollah is a

3:17:053:17:10

terrorist organisation driven by

anti-Semitic ideology which seeks

3:17:103:17:13

the destruction of Israel. It has

wreaked death and destruction

3:17:133:17:17

throughout the Middle East aiding

and abetting the Assad regime's

3:17:173:17:22

butchery in Syria and driving Iran's

expansionism in the region. It makes

3:17:223:17:27

no distinction between political and

military wings and neither should

3:17:273:17:31

the British Government. In 2010, the

Obama administration labelled

3:17:313:17:36

Hezbollah the most technically

capable terrorist group in the

3:17:363:17:39

world. Over the past three decades,

it has been implicated in a string

3:17:393:17:43

of deadly attacks against Israeli,

Jewish and Western targets in the

3:17:433:17:47

Middle East and far beyond. Its

operatives have been arrested for

3:17:473:17:51

plotting to carry out attacks across

the globe, Europe, Asia, Africa and

3:17:513:17:55

South arrays meat America. A litany

of death and violence widely

3:17:553:18:01

attributed to Hezbollah includes the

1983 murder in Beirut of 241

3:18:013:18:06

American and 58 French peacekeepers.

The 1986 wave of bombings against

3:18:063:18:11

Jewish communal targets in Paris

which saw 13 people die. The 1992

3:18:113:18:16

attack on the Israeli embassy and

one monasteries in which 29 people

3:18:163:18:20

died. The 1990 bombing of the

Argentina Jewish mutual association

3:18:203:18:25

leading to the deaths of 85 people.

The 1996 Towers bombing in which 19

3:18:253:18:32

US servicemen lost their lives than

nearly 500 people were injured. The

3:18:323:18:35

2012 attack on the bus of Israeli

tourists in a Bulgarian resort which

3:18:353:18:42

murdered six people and two people

finally went on trial last week.

3:18:423:18:47

Such terrorist acts are promoted,

glorified and encouraged by the

3:18:473:18:52

leadership of Hezbollah. The general

secretary has for instance praised

3:18:523:18:57

suicide bombings or martyrdom

operations, as he prefers to

3:18:573:19:03

describe them, as legitimate,

honourable, legal, humanitarian and

3:19:033:19:09

ethical actions, saying that those

who love death will triumph over

3:19:093:19:13

those who fear it. I give way.

She

is making a very powerful speech.

3:19:133:19:18

Would you not agree the 1000 people

who marched in London under the flag

3:19:183:19:24

of Hezbollah are subscribing to the

very agenda she has just described,

3:19:243:19:28

there is no difference between a

military and political wing, as

3:19:283:19:32

Hezbollah continually acknowledges?

The only recognition of a difference

3:19:323:19:37

is in UK policy, not in reality, and

it is time for the policy to change.

3:19:373:19:43

I thank him for that intervention

and I agree because he is completely

3:19:433:19:48

right, there is no distinction and

we need to be clear about that.

3:19:483:19:54

Hezbollah's actions are driven by a

deep-seated intractable and vicious

3:19:543:19:59

hatred of Jews. The House does not

need to take my word for it. The

3:19:593:20:05

leaders have proudly boasted of

their anti-Semitism. If Jews gather

3:20:053:20:10

in Israel, it would save us the

trouble of going after them, one has

3:20:103:20:14

said. He is not a lone voice.

Another, the deputy leader, has

3:20:143:20:21

said, the history of Jews has proven

that regardless of the Zionist

3:20:213:20:26

proposal, they are people who are

evil in their ideas.

I am grateful.

3:20:263:20:36

She is indeed making a powerful

case. Would she agree with me that

3:20:363:20:43

as well as being anti-Semitic,

Hezbollah have also assassinated and

3:20:433:20:48

murdered Christians and as the

honourable member opposite side,

3:20:483:20:53

applying the difference between the

military part of Hezbollah and the

3:20:533:20:57

political part, it is a distinction

without any meaning whatsoever?

3:20:573:21:02

Again, I have no difficulty agreeing

with my honourable friend on the

3:21:023:21:04

point he makes. They have killed

probably more Muslims than anybody

3:21:043:21:11

else but Christians and Jews and

others. Hezbollah's leaders and the

3:21:113:21:19

media pedal classic anti-Semitic

tropes and lies. They referred to

3:21:193:21:24

Jews, labelling them apes and pigs

and suggest, you will find no one

3:21:243:21:28

more miserly or greedy. They make

spurious claims about Jewish

3:21:283:21:35

conspiracies and world domination.

They deny the Holocaust, suggesting

3:21:353:21:39

that, the dues invented them legend

of the Nazi atrocities -- the Jews.

3:21:393:21:45

Their hatred is a noxious mix, in

the words of one writer, it refuses

3:21:453:21:53

anti-Jewish rhetoric from the Koran

and most disturbingly the antique

3:21:533:21:59

anti-Semitic beliefs and conspiracy

theories of European fascism.

I

3:21:593:22:05

thank her for giving way. Just to

highlight the backers of Hezbollah,

3:22:053:22:11

the Iranians, providing training and

weapons, whilst the Iranians

3:22:113:22:14

continues in the Middle East, they

are jeopardising future prospects of

3:22:143:22:19

peace between the Palestinians and

the Israelis and providing a

3:22:193:22:23

strategic threat to the very state

of Israel.

The honourable gentleman

3:22:233:22:27

makes a powerful point with which I

absolutely agree. I will come to

3:22:273:22:31

that a little later in my

contribution. Hezbollah is a menace

3:22:313:22:36

in the Middle East. But Israel is

its principal target. Again, there

3:22:363:22:42

is no secret about this. In its

founding manifesto in 1985, in which

3:22:423:22:47

it also pledged its loyalty to

Ayatollah Khamenei and it urged the

3:22:473:22:52

establishment of Islamic regime, it

says of Israel, our struggle will

3:22:523:22:59

end only when this entity is

obliterated, we recognise no treaty,

3:22:593:23:04

no ceasefire and no peace agreement,

whether separate or consolidated.

3:23:043:23:09

This no rhetorical sabre rattling.

It has fought any normalisation of

3:23:093:23:18

relations between Israel and Arab

countries. This notably in 1993,

3:23:183:23:26

1996 and 2006, Hezbollah sought to

provoke conflicts with Israel. The

3:23:263:23:31

consequences have been disastrous

and devastating for the people of

3:23:313:23:35

Israel and Lebanon. In 2006, it

kidnapped and murdered Israeli

3:23:353:23:39

soldiers on the northern border of

the country and launched rockets to

3:23:393:23:46

indiscriminately pound the Jewish

state. The resulting conflict led to

3:23:463:23:51

large numbers of civilian casualties

and the evacuation of several

3:23:513:23:55

several hundred thousand people.

Under the UN resolution 1701,

3:23:553:24:03

Hezbollah has spent the last decade

restocking its arsenal and

3:24:033:24:07

rebuilding its forces in Lebanon. It

has tripled the size of its fighting

3:24:073:24:13

force from 17,000 up to 45,000 men

and it has launched an arms

3:24:133:24:18

procurement programme amassing

short, medium and long range

3:24:183:24:22

missiles, rockets, drones, anti-tank

weaponry and ballistic missiles. It

3:24:223:24:28

now has an estimated 120,000 -

140,000 rockets and missiles. An

3:24:283:24:35

arsenal larger than that of many

states. Hezbollah has been allowed

3:24:353:24:41

to replenish and expand its armoury

in this manner, it represents a

3:24:413:24:45

terrible failure on the part of the

international community, breaking of

3:24:453:24:50

the assurances provided to Israel

and a betrayal of the people of

3:24:503:24:54

Lebanon and Israel. The implications

are horrifying. An expert on the

3:24:543:25:00

region and President Obama's former

deputy assistant secretary on

3:25:003:25:05

defence for the Middle East, I

shudder to think what the next

3:25:053:25:08

conflict will look like. Hezbollah

has no qualms about such a war, no

3:25:083:25:15

concern about or care for the loss

of thousands of the civilian lives

3:25:153:25:19

its aggression will lead to.

Israelis, Lebanese, Jews, Muslims

3:25:193:25:26

and Christians. Quite deliberately,

it has embedded its forces and

3:25:263:25:31

weaponry in towns and villages,

turning the people of southern

3:25:313:25:34

Lebanon into human shields. Quite

deliberately it will, as it has in

3:25:343:25:40

the past, targeted civilian

population centres in Israel, even

3:25:403:25:45

vowing that there will be no red

lines in any future conflict and

3:25:453:25:53

underlining the pledge with threats

to attack a nuclear reactor and an

3:25:533:25:58

ammonia storage facility. Quite

deliberately, it will seek to draw

3:25:583:26:04

in other regional actors.

Hezbollah's capacity may be many

3:26:043:26:11

times greater than other terrorist

groups, but its aim to instil terror

3:26:113:26:16

by inflicting mass civilian

casualties are the same as those who

3:26:163:26:18

wage attacks on targets big and

small throughout the world. They are

3:26:183:26:23

the same as those who attacked

London Bridge, the Manchester Arena,

3:26:233:26:27

and this House only last year. But

Hezbollah has not simply exported

3:26:273:26:33

terror globally and wreaked havoc in

Israel and Lebanon, it's bloody

3:26:333:26:38

fingerprints are all over the Syrian

civil War, the most brutal conflict

3:26:383:26:42

of this century. In 2016, it was

estimated more than a quarter of

3:26:423:26:49

Hezbollah's forces were engaged in

fighting on behalf of the murderous

3:26:493:26:52

Assad regime. It has not only

contributed to the killing fields of

3:26:523:26:57

Aleppo, it has helped to eliminate

the non-extremist opposition to

3:26:573:27:03

Assad. Thus contributing to the

ranks of Sunni jihadists and

3:27:033:27:07

stirring sectarian hatreds.

Hezbollah has become Iran's

3:27:073:27:12

indispensable partner, the

Blackwater of Iran, as some have

3:27:123:27:16

labelled it, helping to promote and

further terror and's expansionist

3:27:163:27:21

agenda throughout the Middle East,

in Syria, Iraq and Lebanon. Such a

3:27:213:27:26

vast enterprise cannot be run on the

cheap. In addition to the vast sums

3:27:263:27:31

of weaponry and cash lavished on it

by Iran, the party of God is now

3:27:313:27:37

engaged in money laundering, arms

sales and drug smuggling. It works

3:27:373:27:41

through informal networks in

centrally run enterprises, the

3:27:413:27:45

latter, one leading Middle East

expert told the US Congress last

3:27:453:27:51

summer, operating like international

organised criminal entities.

3:27:513:27:57

Can I thank my right honourable

friend for giving way, but doesn't

3:27:573:28:00

the various elements she is now

describing show the indissoluble

3:28:003:28:06

nature of Hezbollah, not separate

wings, but in fact one single

3:28:063:28:12

terrorist entity?

He is absolutely

right, and this is a distinction

3:28:123:28:18

that Hezbollah not only does not

recognise but the nice. As the House

3:28:183:28:23

will be aware, the British

Government has long held the view

3:28:233:28:25

that Hezbollah's military wing is

involved in conducting and

3:28:253:28:29

supporting terrorism. In 2001, the

Hezbollah security organisation was

3:28:293:28:36

added to the list of proscribed

organisations, which was extended in

3:28:363:28:43

2008 to the military wing, including

the jihad Council and all units

3:28:433:28:48

reporting to it, including the

external security organisation.

3:28:483:28:52

However, Hezbollah's political wing

is not proscribed. The distinction

3:28:523:28:56

is not one that Hezbollah itself is

of a recognised.

I thank my

3:28:563:29:03

honourable friend for giving way.

Does she not agree that it should

3:29:033:29:09

make both the Government front bench

and our opposition front bench is

3:29:093:29:15

deeply uneasy that they are

currently effectively in an alliance

3:29:153:29:19

together on refusing to recognise

this bogus distinction between the

3:29:193:29:26

so-called military wing and the

rest?

I agree with my honourable

3:29:263:29:30

friend and I am hoping that both

frontbenchers will take note of the

3:29:303:29:33

content of what I am saying and come

forward with policy positions that

3:29:333:29:39

support proscribing Hezbollah in its

entirety.

The right honourable

3:29:393:29:47

member, is she aware of the poll

being conducted to show that 81% of

3:29:473:29:52

the public want to see Hezbollah

proscribed in its entirety? In which

3:29:523:29:56

he agree with me, and I see there

are some very honourable members on

3:29:563:30:00

the opposite benches, that the

Labour front bench have got this

3:30:003:30:03

issue wrong and should actually

agree with this motion rather than

3:30:033:30:06

oppose it?

Obviously, unless the

Labour front bench is agreeing with

3:30:063:30:16

Mike and -- with my position, we

have a difference of opinion. I am

3:30:163:30:20

calling on the Government to change

their position. I agree with the

3:30:203:30:24

honourable gentleman, but I believe

his point would have more weight and

3:30:243:30:28

power if he addressed his own front

bench, as they are in a position to

3:30:283:30:32

lead and are not doing so. I will

give way.

It is so great to see you

3:30:323:30:38

back in your seat, Mr Deputy

Speaker. I hot tailed it from my

3:30:383:30:42

office when I saw the honourable

lady on the television screen, and

3:30:423:30:47

was absolutely inspired by the

passion with which he is speaking.

3:30:473:30:50

She is a friend of Israel, as am I,

but does she agree with me that you

3:30:503:30:55

don't have to be a friend of Israel

to believe that Hezbollah in its

3:30:553:31:00

entirety is a terrorist organisation

as night you can be a friend of

3:31:003:31:06

Syria, of Lebanon, of the entire

Middle East, and you should want

3:31:063:31:10

Hezbollah in its entirety to be

banned.

I agree with the honourable

3:31:103:31:18

gentleman, and I would add one

thing: Hezbollah are a terrorist

3:31:183:31:23

organisation and should be banned in

their entirety, whoever you are a

3:31:233:31:27

friend of, if you're not a friend of

the terrorists. Secondly, it is not

3:31:273:31:32

just for Jews to fight

anti-Semitism, and these are

3:31:323:31:36

anti-Semitic organisations. It is

for all of us to stand up on that.

3:31:363:31:41

The distinction is not one that

Hezbollah has ever recognised. In

3:31:413:31:47

fact, it has consistently and

explicitly refuted it. Its founding

3:31:473:31:51

document stated clearly, as to our

military power, nobody can imagine

3:31:513:31:57

it's dimensions because we do not

have a military agency separate from

3:31:573:32:01

the other parts of our body. Each of

us is a combat soldier, when jihad

3:32:013:32:10

demands it. It was made clear that

the same leadership that directs the

3:32:103:32:19

parliamentary work also leads jihad

actions in the struggle against

3:32:193:32:23

Israel. It couldn't be clearer. The

message was repeated three years

3:32:233:32:28

later, with it being declared, we

don't have Hezbollah on the one hand

3:32:283:32:32

and the resistance party on the

other. Every element of Hezbollah,

3:32:323:32:36

from commanders to members, as well

as our various capabilities, are in

3:32:363:32:41

the service of the resistance, and

we have nothing but the resistance

3:32:413:32:43

as a priority. These are Hezbollah's

own words. In 2013, natural himself

3:32:433:32:52

ruled out any notion that the

military and political wings were

3:32:523:32:55

somehow different. He said, though I

disagree on such separation, I

3:32:553:33:04

suggest that all ministers in the

upcoming Lebanese Government be from

3:33:043:33:08

the military wing of Hezbollah. He

also mocked our Government's

3:33:083:33:11

division between the two. The story

of military wing and political wing

3:33:113:33:16

is the work of the British. That is

what he said. It is a distinction

3:33:163:33:19

that with good reason many other

countries do not recognise. These

3:33:193:33:25

include the Netherlands, Canada, the

US, the Arab league and the Gulf

3:33:253:33:29

cooperation Council. I give way.

The

honourable Lady's passion and

3:33:293:33:37

clarity is absolutely right. I

believe it is incumbent upon the

3:33:373:33:40

Government in principle to change

the policy. Is it not absolutely

3:33:403:33:46

possible to work with the Government

of Lebanon on, with whom we are

3:33:463:33:51

extremely friendly, whom we are

assisting to defend itself against

3:33:513:33:53

the depredations of IS and other

factions in Syria, is it not

3:33:533:34:00

possible to assist our legitimate

and welcomer allies in Lebanon

3:34:003:34:04

against that and yet still call out

this terrorist group for what it is?

3:34:043:34:08

For the violins in Syria, for the

destruction in northern Israel and

3:34:083:34:11

all around the region.

Absolutely.

The honourable gentleman is right.

3:34:113:34:18

And those governments that do

proscribed Hezbollah in its entirety

3:34:183:34:22

do talk to the Lebanese Government.

If Hezbollah wishes to change its

3:34:223:34:31

views on Israel, to not obliterated,

and once to signal that it will give

3:34:313:34:36

up its arms, I'm sure, proscribed or

otherwise, that would be the right

3:34:363:34:39

road to take if they wish to take

part in any peace negotiations,

3:34:393:34:43

which they clearly do not. I know

many members of this Has don't

3:34:433:34:51

recognise this false distinction, as

is evident here today. Last summer,

3:34:513:34:58

marches in London displayed

Hezbollah flags, causing great

3:34:583:35:01

offence to so many, especially in

the Jewish community. Once again,

3:35:013:35:06

they were exploiting this bogus

separation which the Government

3:35:063:35:09

chooses to make. I pay tribute to

the Jewish community organisations

3:35:093:35:15

such as the community trust, the

board of deputies and the leadership

3:35:153:35:20

council which have tirelessly

campaigned on the issue of Hezbollah

3:35:203:35:23

proscription. I would like to thank

my friend the honourable member for

3:35:233:35:27

Liverpool Riverside, for Hendon, to

prescribe Hezbollah in its entirety.

3:35:273:35:40

It is not just unwillingness on the

Government's Park but also inability

3:35:403:35:44

to explain or justify why it will

not act. In conflict situations, I

3:35:443:35:48

understand it is necessary to keep

open channels of communication to

3:35:483:35:52

facilitate dialogue and to encourage

those engaged in violence to abandon

3:35:523:35:58

it for the ballot box. There is not

a shred of evidence to suggest that

3:35:583:36:02

this is Hezbollah's intention. Both

in its rhetoric and in its actions,

3:36:023:36:06

it shows no sign of changing. Nor do

I believe that banning the political

3:36:063:36:16

wing might somehow, as the chair of

the select committee has said,

3:36:163:36:21

impede our ties with Lebanon, where

Hezbollah exercises political and

3:36:213:36:26

military power. Banning it in its

entirety does not who have hampered

3:36:263:36:31

relationships with Red Bull in --

with Lebanon. I believe this

3:36:313:36:38

Government is simply not taking the

threat posed seriously. Only last

3:36:383:36:42

week I was informed by the Home

Office that it does not collect data

3:36:423:36:45

on the number of Hezbollah members

or supporters in the UK, a practice

3:36:453:36:50

followed by other European countries

such as Germany. The terrorism act

3:36:503:36:57

allows the Home Secretary to

prescribe an organisation which

3:36:573:37:02

commits or prepares acts of

terrorism, promotes or encourages

3:37:023:37:08

terrorism, including the unlawful

glorification of terrorism, or is

3:37:083:37:12

otherwise concerned in terrorism. As

I have demonstrated, I believe,

3:37:123:37:16

Hezbollah, an organisation which is

indivisible, more than meets those

3:37:163:37:26

criteria. Even the distinction

between the wings could be drawn,

3:37:263:37:31

the words of the former, promoting,

encouraging and glorifying

3:37:313:37:35

terrorism, would surely meet the

Government's criteria for

3:37:353:37:41

proscription. After last June's

terrorist attack at London Bridge,

3:37:413:37:44

the Prime Minister said, there is,

to be frank, far too much tolerance

3:37:443:37:50

of extremism in our country. I

agree. Hezbollah is an organisation

3:37:503:37:56

driven by hatred of Jews, which

encourages terrorism and calls for

3:37:563:38:00

the destruction of the Middle East's

only democracy, a key British ally

3:38:003:38:04

in the region. So long as her

Government does not proscribed

3:38:043:38:09

Hezbollah's so-called political

wing, that tolerance will continue.

3:38:093:38:15

The question is as on the order

paper. Can I suggest 10-12 minutes's

3:38:153:38:26

Theresa Villiers.

I would like to

start by saying it is an honour to

3:38:263:38:31

follow the Right Honourable member

for Enfield North, because she has

3:38:313:38:35

made an exceptionally powerful

speech on an issue which matters to

3:38:353:38:38

so many of us. I would also like to

mention that an entry on my register

3:38:383:38:45

of interests visit to Israel that I

took in February. I would also like

3:38:453:38:48

to think the constituents who have

contacted me about this important

3:38:483:38:52

debate today to make their views

very clear that they want to see

3:38:523:38:56

Hezbollah band in its entirety. Mr

Deputy Speaker, it is wonderful to

3:38:563:39:00

see you in your chair, even for a

debate on a matter as sad and

3:39:003:39:04

serious as this. As the Right

Honourable member for Enfield North

3:39:043:39:10

has stated, and others intervening

as they did as well, the distinction

3:39:103:39:15

currently made in our law between

Hezbollah's political and military

3:39:153:39:20

wings is entirely artificial. This

is a single operation. That has been

3:39:203:39:25

stated by its leadership on numerous

occasions. For example, its deputy

3:39:253:39:31

leader has said that Hezbollah has

one leadership and one

3:39:313:39:34

administration. Hezbollah's

political leaders have a long

3:39:343:39:40

history of personal involvement in

the group's terrorist and criminal

3:39:403:39:44

activities. Its Secretary General is

believed to have taken part in

3:39:443:39:52

hostagetaking, plane hijacking and

violent attacks on rivals. Hezbollah

3:39:523:39:56

presents a clear danger to the

security of our country. The

3:39:563:40:00

decision to proscribed parts of the

organisation was prompted by the

3:40:003:40:03

2012 attack on a bus of Israeli

tourists in Bulgaria, but as we have

3:40:033:40:09

already heard this afternoon, the

list of their crimes and atrocities

3:40:093:40:13

is a long one, not least the

notorious truck bomb in Iris in

3:40:133:40:21

1994, which killed 85 people, -- in

Buenos Aires in 1994. Just a few

3:40:213:40:31

years ago, when a Hezbollah

operative in Cyprus was found guilty

3:40:313:40:34

of planning to attack Israelis, he

said he was collecting information

3:40:343:40:38

about Jews and this is what his

organisation was doing everywhere in

3:40:383:40:42

the world. We should be under no

illusion, Hezbollah proposes --

3:40:423:40:48

poses a serious threat to the

citizens of this country, and to our

3:40:483:40:53

neighbours across Europe, and we

should proscribed it in all its

3:40:533:40:56

forms. In taking that step, the

Government would have considerable

3:40:563:41:01

support from this House, and from

the public will stop yesterday, the

3:41:013:41:07

Jewish News published details of a

wide-ranging poll they commissioned

3:41:073:41:11

covering some 2000 individuals. 44%

would support the political wing

3:41:113:41:16

being designated as a terrorist

group, compared to just 10% who

3:41:163:41:21

opposed. With 46% answering don't

know, that means that 81% of those

3:41:213:41:26

expressing a view backed designation

of the whole of Hezbollah as a

3:41:263:41:33

terrorist organisation. We should be

in no doubt that the question we are

3:41:333:41:37

debating today does matter in a very

real, practical way. By limiting

3:41:373:41:43

proscription to the so-called

military wing, we are undermining

3:41:433:41:46

the ability of the police to protect

us from the danger that this group

3:41:463:41:49

poses. The fact that some parts of

Hezbollah are not proscribed limits

3:41:493:41:53

the ability of law enforcement

agencies to seize funds using asset

3:41:533:41:59

freezing and forfeiture powers.

Classifying the whole of the

3:41:593:42:03

organisation as a terrorist group

would significantly constrain their

3:42:033:42:07

ability to raise funds and also stop

them using UK banks to transfer any

3:42:073:42:11

money around the world. I would

emphasise that terrorism isn't the

3:42:113:42:16

only type of unlawful activity in

which this organisation is involved.

3:42:163:42:21

Just a few weeks ago, the French

authorities referred a 15 member

3:42:213:42:27

Hezbollah sell to a criminal Court

on money laundering charges. In

3:42:273:42:32

October 2015, the US and French

authorities arrested two individuals

3:42:323:42:35

from Hezbollah, one in Atlanta and

one in Paris. They were caught

3:42:353:42:39

laundering drugs proceeds and

seeking to purchase weapons and

3:42:393:42:42

cocaine. According to court

documents, they used Hezbollah

3:42:423:42:46

connected associates to provide

security for narcotics shipments.

3:42:463:42:54

On associate apparently laundered

30,000 free US drug enforcement

3:42:543:42:59

undercover agent posing as a

narcotics trafficker. So the partial

3:42:593:43:05

description of tempting

has not

deterred the group from engaging in

3:43:053:43:10

criminal conduct on bridges.

The

security trust reports that his

3:43:103:43:16

brother has been involved in the

drug trade in South America. In 2016

3:43:163:43:20

the drug enforcement agency

uncovered a massive his brother

3:43:203:43:24

money laundering and drug

trafficking scheme. In the view of

3:43:243:43:28

the DA, his brother enjoys

established business relationships

3:43:283:43:31

with the South American drug cartels

and is responsible for trafficking

3:43:313:43:35

large quantities of cocaine into

Europe and the US. Mr Deputy

3:43:353:43:41

Speaker, describing an organisation

is a very serious step to take. It's

3:43:413:43:47

right that the law sets out clear

criteria which have to be satisfied

3:43:473:43:51

before any minister can take this

decision. There can be no doubt that

3:43:513:43:56

those parts of his brother which are

over lead terrorist and military

3:43:563:44:00

fall squarely within the description

in subsection five and section three

3:44:003:44:05

of the Terrorism Act 2000, the

relevant legislation. In my view,

3:44:053:44:10

there is also a very strong case to

say that the criteria of subsection

3:44:103:44:16

five are also satisfied in relation

to the political wing of his

3:44:163:44:20

brother. The political leaders of

the organisation have promoted and

3:44:203:44:25

encouraged the group's terrorist

activities as we have heard

3:44:253:44:32

powerfully explained by the member

of Enfield North. It describes

3:44:323:44:35

itself as one single organisation

and that is how it should be treated

3:44:353:44:41

by our legal system. Quite frankly,

the march is a scandal. It's not

3:44:413:44:49

acceptable that people can fly the

his brother flag on the streets of

3:44:493:44:54

London and get away with it simply

by adding a post-it note saying

3:44:543:45:00

support shown is for the military

wing. This has got to stop. As the

3:45:003:45:07

campaign e-mails which arrived in

our inboxes pointed out, this is an

3:45:073:45:10

embarrassment. They are laughing at

us. In considering whether to

3:45:103:45:15

prescribe an organisation the Home

Office guidance states the Home

3:45:153:45:17

Secretary should take into account

factors including quote" the need to

3:45:173:45:22

support other members of the

international community in the

3:45:223:45:26

global fight against terrorism."

It's time we followed the lead set

3:45:263:45:30

by countries like the USA, Canada

and the Netherlands, who have

3:45:303:45:35

implemented full prescription. His

brother have been carrying out

3:45:353:45:38

murderous attacks in countries

around the world for over 30 years.

3:45:383:45:42

It is an organisation heavily

implicated in crime and money

3:45:423:45:47

laundering, as well as being a

deeply malevolent presence in the

3:45:473:45:51

Syrian war. It is a violent

anti-Semitic organisation whose main

3:45:513:45:57

ambition is the complete destruction

of the state of Israel. We should

3:45:573:46:00

ban it, all of it, now. Thank you Mr

Deputy Speaker and it's fantastic to

3:46:003:46:09

see you back in the chair.

I want to

congratulate the honourable member

3:46:093:46:16

for her speech, I agree with every

word. I thought the speech by my

3:46:163:46:20

right honourable friend the member

for Enfield North was absolutely

3:46:203:46:24

superb, absolutely brilliant. And

she should be commended for that. I

3:46:243:46:29

want to thank all the people from

Dudley who have written to me about

3:46:293:46:32

this issue, telling me they think

Hezbollah is a terrorist

3:46:323:46:37

organisation and should be banned in

its entirety and that waiving its

3:46:373:46:41

flag as an incitement to terrorism

and violence. As we've heard, this

3:46:413:46:47

organisation has carried out

terrorist attacks and racist

3:46:473:46:49

murderers in the Middle East, Europe

and the rest of the world. Its

3:46:493:46:52

stated aim is the destruction of

Israel but it does not limit its

3:46:523:46:56

attacks to people in Israel, it

targets Jewish people anywhere and

3:46:563:47:01

everywhere. It is not true to claim

that there is a political wing and a

3:47:013:47:04

military wing. As has been said

already. Hezbollah itself does not

3:47:043:47:10

make this distinction and this

supposedly distinction undermines

3:47:103:47:21

the fight against terrorism. That is

why the United States, France, the

3:47:213:47:23

Gulf Corporation Counsel, Canada,

the Netherlands and Israel have all

3:47:233:47:25

prescribe Hezbollah in full on why I

can't understand our government is

3:47:253:47:28

not prepared or has not been

prepared to do the same. I very much

3:47:283:47:30

hope that that stance will change as

a result of this debate this

3:47:303:47:34

afternoon. Of course.

Thank you very much for giving way.

3:47:343:47:37

We've heard in the past prescribing

Hezbollah might be destabilising to

3:47:373:47:44

Lebanon and the wider region but

does he not agree that by engaging

3:47:443:47:48

in this pretence and indulging a

terrorist organisation, people we

3:47:483:47:52

are destabilising the many moderates

who are marginalising extremists and

3:47:523:48:00

Hezbollah?

He is completely right about that.

3:48:003:48:02

It's a point my right honourable

friend for Enfield North made

3:48:023:48:05

opening this debate and a point made

very eloquently by the chair of the

3:48:053:48:09

foreign affairs select committee. I

think it is completely unacceptable

3:48:093:48:15

to see Hezbollah's flag waved on the

streets of Britain and it's

3:48:153:48:19

disgusting to hear the virulently

racist views and racist chanting

3:48:193:48:24

which accompanies it. So I agree

with many of the points made already

3:48:243:48:27

today. There are three particular

issues on which I want to focus.

3:48:273:48:32

First I want to talk about the role

of Hezbollah in the Middle East and

3:48:323:48:34

its impact on the peace process

between Israel and the Palestinians.

3:48:343:48:38

We have debated that many times in

this house but we should be

3:48:383:48:41

absolutely under no illusion at all

that the difficult issues that

3:48:413:48:46

negotiations will need to confront,

borders, land swaps, status of

3:48:463:48:51

Jerusalem, all of these issues,

let's be honest, none of these are

3:48:513:48:55

issues which remotely interest

Hezbollah. It is not interested in

3:48:553:48:59

compromises all sides need to make

to bring about a two state solution.

3:48:593:49:03

Its sole interest is the destruction

of Israel. Hezbollah itself has made

3:49:033:49:07

this absolutely clear. The war is an

integrated 1992, until Israel ceases

3:49:073:49:14

to exist and the last Jewish person

in the world has been eliminated.

3:49:143:49:19

Israel is completely evil and must

be a raise from the face of the

3:49:193:49:22

earth"

3:49:223:49:22

be a raise from the face of the

earth". That's why when Israel

3:49:223:49:27

unilaterally withdrew from southern

Lebanon in 2000, Hezbollah's

3:49:273:49:31

response wasn't peace but the murder

and kidnapping of Israeli soldiers

3:49:313:49:35

and an avalanche of rocket attacks

just six years later. That is why

3:49:353:49:41

today Hezbollah, thanks to its

uranium paymasters, threatens Israel

3:49:413:49:44

by pointing 120-140,000 rockets that

the country. In October, one of the

3:49:443:49:53

Hezbollah leaders urged Jewish

people to flee Israel before its

3:49:533:49:59

devastated by war. Last February he

warned there would be no red lines

3:49:593:50:03

in any future conflict between the

terror group and Israel. In April,

3:50:033:50:09

boasted of his organisation's

preparedness for war and in June he

3:50:093:50:15

spoke of "Hundreds of thousands of

Shia fighters from across the Middle

3:50:153:50:18

East who would rush to Hezbollah's

five-minute next takes the fight to

3:50:183:50:23

the Jewish state."

Here's making an excellent case as

3:50:233:50:30

he always does. It's also really

important, is it not, to keep

3:50:303:50:36

reminding people of the role

Hezbollah has played in training the

3:50:363:50:39

Houthi rebels, which is causing such

terrible carnage and destruction and

3:50:393:50:45

death in Yemen.

Lebanon, Israel, in

Syria and in Yemen, Hezbollah is

3:50:453:50:55

causing carnage across the Middle

East and that is its stated aim.

3:50:553:50:59

I thank my honourable friend, the

honourable gentleman for giving way.

3:50:593:51:02

Would he agree that actually one of

the best ways of defeating Hezbollah

3:51:023:51:05

is by trying to install or encourage

or assist a stable, functioning

3:51:053:51:12

Lebanese state?

That is complete

clap. This is a point made very

3:51:123:51:16

eloquently by the chair of the

foreign affairs select committee

3:51:163:51:19

earlier. Look, he goes to the Middle

East a lot and knows a lot people

3:51:193:51:23

there. He is an expert on the region

and what he says is worth listening

3:51:233:51:26

to. I very much hope his front bench

will be listening to the advice that

3:51:263:51:32

they've just been given. Analysts

warn that the next conflict between

3:51:323:51:40

Israel and Hezbollah will likely be

the most destructive Arab Israeli

3:51:403:51:44

war yet. Israel's military believes

in a future conflict, Hezbollah will

3:51:443:51:47

be able to launch 1500 rockets and

missiles a day. Israel has increased

3:51:473:51:54

its defensive capabilities but

Hezbollah is likely to target

3:51:543:51:58

military facilities, important

infrastructure and civilian

3:51:583:52:00

population centres as well. In the

past, they have threatened that

3:52:003:52:04

Hezbollah will attack a nuclear

reactor. I was in Haifa just over 20

3:52:043:52:18

miles from the border with Lebanon.

And the sight of Israel's oil

3:52:183:52:22

refinery and one of the main targets

first Hezbollah. Imagine the carnage

3:52:223:52:27

and devastation and the civilian

deaths that could result when

3:52:273:52:32

Hezbollah start raining down

missiles and Haifa in a future

3:52:323:52:35

conflict, as they have done from

just a few miles away in the past.

3:52:353:52:40

Now sadly Israel's experience in

southern Lebanon was that repeated

3:52:403:52:46

in Gaza. Israel signed an agreement

on movement on access with the

3:52:463:52:51

Palestinian Authority that gave the

Palestinians control of their

3:52:513:52:53

builders for the first time in

history, allowed imports and exports

3:52:533:52:58

and approved construction of a

seaport and discussions on an

3:52:583:53:01

airport. They pulled out of Gaza but

just as in Lebanon, a terrorist

3:53:013:53:06

organisation, a powerful armed

militia, this time Hamas, also

3:53:063:53:11

equipped by Iran just as committed

to the destruction of Israel

3:53:113:53:14

launched a coup, band of actions --

band elections, executed people

3:53:143:53:22

outside mosques up after Friday

prayers and declared themselves the

3:53:223:53:27

new rulers of Gaza and that they

would use the strip as a basis to

3:53:273:53:33

destroy Israel. So the unilateral

withdrawal of 8500 Israelis from

3:53:333:53:38

Gaza was not met by peace but by

rockets and attack tunnels after

3:53:383:53:43

Hamas's but brutal takeover. You can

understand why when you look at the

3:53:433:53:46

experience in Lebanon and Gaza, you

can understand why. But the people

3:53:463:53:50

in here, like it or not, the

experience in Lebanon and Gaza makes

3:53:503:53:55

the Israelis very reticent about

pulling out of the West Bank. The

3:53:553:53:59

uranium proxy Hezbollah poses a

significant threat to the security

3:53:593:54:04

and stability, as we just heard from

my honourable friend from Barrow, in

3:54:043:54:09

the Middle East, explicitly the

whole of the Middle East, not just

3:54:093:54:12

Israel. This is the second point I

want to make... That Hezbollah has

3:54:123:54:19

played a particularly pernicious and

powerful role in the internal

3:54:193:54:22

affairs of Lebanon. Its Armed Forces

have been described as more

3:54:223:54:25

effective than Lebanon's, comets and

its military power is used on

3:54:253:54:29

occasion to pressurise the Lebanese

government, allowing Iran to

3:54:293:54:32

exercise influence of the country.

Once seen as a state within the

3:54:323:54:37

state, Hezbollah's growing influence

threatens to bring Israel's northern

3:54:373:54:41

neighbour and army into a future

conflict. The third point I want to

3:54:413:54:45

make is this. Hezbollah's so-called

resistance against Israel is

3:54:453:54:52

influenced, as we had, by its deeply

anti-Semitic ideology. The group was

3:54:523:54:57

Michael leader has said if Jewish

people or gather in Israel it will

3:54:573:55:02

save us the trouble of going after

them worldwide. He also suggested

3:55:023:55:07

God imprinted blasphemy on the

hearts of the Jewish people.

3:55:073:55:12

Hezbollah's debited leader has said

the history of Jewish people has

3:55:123:55:16

proved that regardless of the

proposal, they are a people who are

3:55:163:55:21

evil in their ideas. And that late

grand Ayatollah, one of Hezbollah's

3:55:213:55:28

most influential figures, pedalled

anti-Semitic conspiracy theories

3:55:283:55:34

about Jewish people. He said, the

Jewish people want to be a world

3:55:343:55:39

superpower, they will work on the

basis Jewish interests are above all

3:55:393:55:42

world interests.

Now I have criticised the Government

3:55:423:55:46

for not prescribing Hezbollah but I

also want to address my address some

3:55:463:55:55

remarks to my own party as well. I

want to say this... In 2009, at a

3:55:553:56:00

meeting of the so-called the war

coalition, which I think was

3:56:003:56:06

probably the worst or

inappropriately named organisation

3:56:063:56:10

in British politics... The leader of

the Labour Party said that he

3:56:103:56:14

invited "Friends" from Hamas and

Hezbollah to an event in Parliament.

3:56:143:56:20

Later when asked what he called them

friends, he said, "I use it in a

3:56:203:56:25

collective way, saying our friends

are prepared to talk". And he said

3:56:253:56:29

"There is not going to be a peace

process unless there is talks

3:56:293:56:34

involving Israel, Hezbollah and

Hamas". Firstly, who would describe

3:56:343:56:39

a racist and terrorist organisation

might Hezbollah as friends? Who

3:56:393:56:47

would do that? I think social

Democrats, indeed all Democrats,

3:56:473:56:51

should always be crystal clear about

describing totalitarian movements

3:56:513:56:57

and governments, whether that is

Hezbollah or for instance the

3:56:573:57:01

Iranian dictatorship which backs

Hezbollah. And second, I think the

3:57:013:57:06

statement by the leaders of

Hezbollah make it very, very clear

3:57:063:57:10

that they have absolutely no

interest in negotiations and

3:57:103:57:14

compromises which could lead to

peace, adding that is very clear.

3:57:143:57:18

The idea that Hezbollah is a partner

for peace is utterly misguided.

3:57:183:57:23

Their contribution to the Oslo peace

process was to threaten to move a

3:57:233:57:28

Jewish tourists and businessmen...

But even if they said all that to

3:57:283:57:35

one side, I don't think the

leadership of our party has shown

3:57:353:57:39

the same interest in speaking to the

Israelis.

3:57:393:57:41

Invitations to meet Labour but own

sister party, to visit Israel and

3:57:483:57:57

talk to them about their plans to

bring the conflict to an end, have

3:57:573:58:00

not been accepted. The conflict

between Israelis and Palestinians is

3:58:003:58:07

enormously difficult and complex and

there are no easy answers and if

3:58:073:58:10

there were they would have been

found by now but some elements are

3:58:103:58:14

terrible and others, in the case of

Hezbollah is one of them, this is an

3:58:143:58:19

antique Semitic racist terrorist

group -- anti-Semitic for the they

3:58:193:58:26

wish to murder dues around the

world. Hezbollah is part of the

3:58:263:58:30

problem and it will never be part of

the solution and that is why this

3:58:303:58:33

house and our government should

agree today to prescribe it in its

3:58:333:58:37

entirety.

3:58:373:58:40

Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker

3:58:423:58:44

may I say how pleased I am to see

you in the chair today, and I also

3:58:463:58:50

congratulate the right honourable

member for Enfield North on her

3:58:503:58:54

opening and for securing this

important debate and the backbench

3:58:543:58:57

business committee for facilitating

it. I should declare an interest, as

3:58:573:59:01

chair of the Council for Arab

British understanding. There is no

3:59:013:59:09

doubt Hezbollah is a terrorist

organisation, indeed it is one of

3:59:093:59:12

the largest and most powerful and

most vicious and most dangerous

3:59:123:59:16

terrorist organisations in the

world. Although it is ostensibly a

3:59:163:59:20

political party, and indeed is one

of the key players, in Lebanon, it

3:59:203:59:27

also over the and rigidly adheres to

the revolution agenda of Iran. Its

3:59:273:59:41

emergence in 1982 was directly

attributable to the intervention of

3:59:413:59:43

Iran. And the influence of Iran was

made clear in Hezbollah's manifesto

3:59:433:59:53

dated 1985 stated, we are the sons,

the party of God, the vanguard of

3:59:533:59:57

which was made victorious by God in

Iran. Hezbollah in truth is an

3:59:574:00:03

Iranian proxy, closely associated

with Iran's Islamic Revolutionary

4:00:034:00:11

guard and like Iran it considers the

United States and Israel to be its

4:00:114:00:14

principal enemies. Early in its

existence, Hezbollah pledged

4:00:144:00:19

allegiance to Ayatollah hum --

Hameni, and since his death it has

4:00:194:00:30

pledged allegiance to his successor

for them so enjoys the concept of

4:00:304:00:36

resistance, chiefly to the United

States and Israel, and resistance is

4:00:364:00:41

Hezbollah code for terrorist

activity. And indeed the history of

4:00:414:00:46

Hezbollah has been one of one

terrorist act after another. In

4:00:464:00:53

April 1983, shortly after its

formation, it carried out a suicide

4:00:534:00:56

attack on the United States Embassy

in Beirut killing 63 people, six

4:00:564:01:00

months later there was another

suicide bombing of the US Marine

4:01:004:01:05

barracks in Beirut which killed 241.

US nationals have been repeatedly

4:01:054:01:11

targeted by Hezbollah and indeed

Hezbollah was responsible for

4:01:114:01:16

killing more Americans than any

other terrorist organisation until

4:01:164:01:21

the attacks on New York City on

9/11. Israel has also been the

4:01:214:01:30

repeated target of Hezbollah

terrorism, and after Israel withdrew

4:01:304:01:33

from south Lebanon in 2000,

Hezbollah carried out numerous

4:01:334:01:38

cross-border incursions, culminating

in an attack in July 2006 that

4:01:384:01:44

killed eight Israeli soldiers. In

the conflict that followed,

4:01:444:01:50

Hezbollah fired thousands of Iranian

supplied rockets into Israeli

4:01:504:01:55

territory killing 39 civilians and

120 soldiers. Hezbollah has also

4:01:554:02:01

planned and executed many other

terrorist attacks outside the region

4:02:014:02:04

including on the European continent

and currently two Hezbollah

4:02:044:02:10

operatives are being tried in their

absence for the 2012 bombing of a

4:02:104:02:14

bus carrying Israeli citizens at an

airport in Bulgaria. Such actions

4:02:144:02:20

are seen to be part of the so-called

resistance to Israel, that is one of

4:02:204:02:29

Hezbollah's devout objectives, and

many of the attacks have been on

4:02:294:02:35

non-Israeli Jewish people and Jewish

interests and the right honourable

4:02:354:02:37

lady gave an extensive catalogue of

those attacks. Quite understandably

4:02:374:02:44

and quite probably, Hezbollah has

been designated a terrorist

4:02:444:02:51

organisation in many parts of the

world, and in 1996 Israel listed

4:02:514:02:54

Hezbollah as a terrorist

organisation followed by the United

4:02:544:02:59

States in 1997 and it has also been

prescribed by Canada, the

4:02:594:03:03

Netherlands, New Zealand, France and

Bahrain, and in March 2016 the Gulf

4:03:034:03:08

cooperation Council designated

Hezbollah as a terrorist

4:03:084:03:13

organisation, stressing its status

as a proxy for Iran in regional

4:03:134:03:16

conflicts including the pithy

rebellion in Yemen. The

4:03:164:03:23

Secretary-General commented that the

GCC states the practices in the

4:03:234:03:30

Council states of Hezbollah and

their sub versus axe -- subversive

4:03:304:03:37

acts being carried out pose a threat

to Arab national security and

4:03:374:03:45

international law, and very recently

in November of last year most of the

4:03:454:03:49

Arab league's 22 members condemned

Hezbollah as a terrorist

4:03:494:03:53

organisation stating it was

supporting terrorist groups across

4:03:534:03:56

the Middle East by supplying them

with weapons including ballistic

4:03:564:03:58

missiles. The United Kingdom's

position on Hezbollah has been

4:03:584:04:05

somewhat more nuanced. In 2001 UK

prescribed Hezbollah's external

4:04:054:04:16

security organisation under the

terrorism act that prescription was

4:04:164:04:19

extended to the military of

Hezbollah including the jihad

4:04:194:04:22

Council in 2008, as a consequence of

their targeting of British soldiers

4:04:224:04:27

in Iraq. The UK was instrumental in

persuading the European Union to

4:04:274:04:35

designate the military wing as a

terrorist entity in 2013 but the

4:04:354:04:41

British government has consistently

been reluctant to extend the

4:04:414:04:44

prescription to the entirety of

Hezbollah. In a memorandum to the

4:04:444:04:50

European scrutiny committee in

August 2013 the then minister for

4:04:504:04:56

Europe, now the Chancellor of the

Duchy, stated that although the UK

4:04:564:05:01

does not engage with Hezbollah's

political wing, some EU member

4:05:014:05:05

states to engage with it as a

political party in Lebanon, and

4:05:054:05:09

therefore they had concerns over the

effect of a EU designation on their

4:05:094:05:13

engagement. By differentiating

between Hezbollah's military

4:05:134:05:19

ampicillin is the designation, he

said, would not prevent those member

4:05:194:05:24

states from maintaining such contact

-- military wing. He said the

4:05:244:05:33

military wing of Hezbollah were

separate from the political wing

4:05:334:05:35

which included members of Parliament

and was overseen by a political

4:05:354:05:40

council. Mr Deputy Speaker, I would

suggest that that distinction is

4:05:404:05:45

completely illusory. The fact is

Hezbollah itself denies that there

4:05:454:05:51

is any distinction to be drawn

between its military and political

4:05:514:05:55

wings.

Would you give way?

I will.

You are making a very persuasive

4:05:554:06:03

speech does he not agree that it

would be as absurd to suggest that

4:06:034:06:08

you can distinguish between the

British government and the British

4:06:084:06:12

Armed Forces and that somehow you

could declare the British Armed

4:06:124:06:15

Forces an enemy without declaring

the British government an enemy? The

4:06:154:06:20

Armed Forces are under the control

of and the direction of the

4:06:204:06:23

political arm of Hezbollah and they

must be treated as one.

You are

4:06:234:06:29

entirely right and I agree, and more

to the point Hezbollah also agrees.

4:06:294:06:35

Their deputy general secretary

declared that their deadly -- deputy

4:06:354:06:45

head is the head of the jihad

Council and this means we have one

4:06:454:06:48

leadership with one administration

and in 2012 he said we don't have a

4:06:484:06:52

military wing and a political one,

we don't have Hezbollah on one hand

4:06:524:06:56

and the resistance party on the

other, every element of Hezbollah

4:06:564:07:00

from commanders to members as well

as our various capabilities is in

4:07:004:07:05

the service of the resistance and we

have nothing but the resistance as a

4:07:054:07:10

priority, so the fact is Hezbollah

is in reality a single entity. It is

4:07:104:07:17

ludicrous to suggest it isn't. As a

single entity it is a threat to the

4:07:174:07:24

entire world, British interests not

least Arafat did buy it. And my

4:07:244:07:27

right honourable friend gave a

catalogue of the extent to which

4:07:274:07:34

Hezbollah are carrying out

activities which are directly

4:07:344:07:38

threatening British interests and

also carrying out crimes on the

4:07:384:07:43

streets of Britain. Arguably as

dangerous, Hezbollah protesters

4:07:434:07:51

routinely display Hezbollah flags on

the streets of London at events,

4:07:514:07:59

disingenuously labelling them as

flags of the political wing of

4:07:594:08:01

Hezbollah rather than its military

wing. It's very clear that the

4:08:014:08:08

partial ban is not having the

desired effect or much effect at

4:08:084:08:13

all. The government has contended

that banning the organisation might

4:08:134:08:21

destabilise the political order in

Lebanon. Well, however, I would

4:08:214:08:26

suggest that the greatest

destabilising influence in Lebanon

4:08:264:08:31

is Hezbollah itself. Four Hezbollah

members are being tried before the

4:08:314:08:40

special tribunal for Lebanon in

connection with the murder of the

4:08:404:08:45

late Lebanese Prime Minister. Won

forces have supported the Vashem of

4:08:454:08:53

Bashir Al Assad in Syria --

Hezbollah forces have supported the

4:08:534:08:59

regime. Madame Jeopardy speaker,

whilst I understand the concerns and

4:08:594:09:06

the desires of the government, I

would suggest that the partial

4:09:064:09:10

prescription has not have the effect

either of curbing Hezbollah's

4:09:104:09:15

terrorist activities and clearing

them from the UK -- Madame Deputy

4:09:154:09:22

Speaker. Hezbollah is on our

streets, waving their flags and

4:09:224:09:27

thumbing their noses at the British

government, and consequently I would

4:09:274:09:30

urge the government to give

reconsideration to its stance on

4:09:304:09:35

this issue. And to conclude that

Hezbollah, a dangerous aggressive

4:09:354:09:43

terrorist organisation that is a

threat to regional stability and the

4:09:434:09:45

security of this country, should be

prescribed in its entirety.

Thank

4:09:454:09:51

you. It is a great privilege to

follow so many excellent

4:09:514:09:58

contributions from all sides of the

house and I would like to thank my

4:09:584:10:02

right honourable friend for securing

this very important debate and for

4:10:024:10:06

her very powerful contribution in

opening this extremely important

4:10:064:10:11

debate here today. Hezbollah is a

radical Shia Islamist terrorist

4:10:114:10:20

organisation founded in rancid after

1979 revolution. -- in Iran. It is

4:10:204:10:28

anti-Semitic and carries out acts of

international terrorism and it

4:10:284:10:30

should be prescribed in his

entirety. Instead the UK accents the

4:10:304:10:36

spurious distinction between their

political and military wings,

4:10:364:10:43

banning the military wing but

permitting the so-called political

4:10:434:10:45

wing to operate. As members have

pointed out in this debate,

4:10:454:10:51

Hezbollah itself does not accept

this distinctive and four example

4:10:514:10:57

the deputy Secretary General said in

2012 very explicitly that we don't

4:10:574:11:04

have a military wing and a political

one, we don't have Hezbollah on the

4:11:044:11:09

one hand and the resistance party on

the other. The evidence that

4:11:094:11:14

Hezbollah engages in terrorism and

in genders hate is overwhelming,

4:11:144:11:20

they were behind the bombing of the

Jewish amenity centre in Argentina

4:11:204:11:25

-- community centre. Killing 85

people. It has murdered people,

4:11:254:11:33

Jewish, Christian, Muslims, and

others, in places like Nigeria,

4:11:334:11:36

Thailand, Bulgaria and Cyprus and it

is complicit with the murderous

4:11:364:11:40

Assad regime in Syria. Operating

with Assad and with Iran, it is part

4:11:404:11:46

of the axis of resistance which

seeks to confront Sunni power,

4:11:464:11:51

Western influence and Israel, it is

a malign influence. Hezbollah

4:11:514:11:57

explicitly promotes anti-Semitism.

Hezbollah TV was the first media

4:11:574:12:05

outlet to make the false claim that

4000 dues did not go to work at the

4:12:054:12:20

world trade tower, and this lie has

now become a widespread anti-Semitic

4:12:204:12:24

libel. Their message insights

violence. A person who has studied

4:12:244:12:33

the anti-Semitic motives has

concluded that their brand of

4:12:334:12:35

anti-Semitism is typical of

contemporary violent Islamist

4:12:354:12:39

groups. Describing it as combining

traditional Islamist perceptions

4:12:394:12:47

with western anti-Semitic

terminology and motives to express

4:12:474:12:49

its oppositions to Zionism which in

turn is equated not only with the

4:12:494:12:55

state of Israel but with imperialism

and Western arrogance.

4:12:554:13:03

This issue has very serious

implications for us here in the UK.

4:13:034:13:08

At the annual march in London last

June, Hezbollah's green and yellow

4:13:084:13:13

flag, the same flag displayed at

military operations, was put on

4:13:134:13:18

show. The purpose of the March is to

agitate for violent resistance and

4:13:184:13:26

the destruction of the state of

Israel. At the centre of the flag,

4:13:264:13:32

the largest Arabic word in green

reeds Hezbollah. Out of the word

4:13:324:13:37

Hezbollah emerges a globe within

upraised arm and an assault rifle.

4:13:374:13:43

The letter a is linked to the

upraised arm grasping the assault

4:13:434:13:49

rifle, symbolising the

legitimisation of the armed

4:13:494:13:53

resistance as being divinely

sanctioned. That message is clear,

4:13:534:13:59

it is menacing and it is extremely

powerful. The menacing chanting that

4:13:594:14:06

took place at that march on the

streets of London last year included

4:14:064:14:10

the heinous chanting Zionist Isis is

fine, the only difference is the

4:14:104:14:21

name.

Thank you. It's worth pointing out

4:14:214:14:25

the march was led by the director of

the Islamic human rights commission,

4:14:254:14:29

who during his speech blamed the

Grenfell Tower tragedy and the

4:14:294:14:34

Zionists, which as we all know it is

a euphemism for Jews. The whole

4:14:344:14:39

enterprise was entirely bonkers, as

well as being anti-Semitic.

4:14:394:14:44

The honourable member makes a very

important point. Indeed, I will make

4:14:444:14:49

reference to the Grenfell Tower

disaster in a moment or two in my

4:14:494:14:53

contribution.

All of this is inciting violence,

4:14:534:14:59

hatred and division here on the

streets of the UK. This is taking

4:14:594:15:05

place as anti-Semitic offences in

this country reach record levels, as

4:15:054:15:11

shown in the recent community

Security trust report. Their run

4:15:114:15:15

many other disturbing recent

examples and incitement to hatred,

4:15:154:15:19

and I referred to the important

point raised by the honourable

4:15:194:15:22

member just a moment ago. For

example, a volunteer running a

4:15:224:15:28

network helping the survivors of the

Grenfell Tower fire tragedy has

4:15:284:15:32

claimed the 71 people who perished

were burnt in a Jewish sacrifice.

4:15:324:15:39

That is horrendous, horrendous

incitement to hatred. And that

4:15:394:15:49

march, some marchers held flags with

small stickers attached to them

4:15:494:15:53

stating, I support the political

wing of Hezbollah. This was designed

4:15:534:15:59

to give the marchers protection

against any legal challenge,

4:15:594:16:03

pretending that the political wing

of Hezbollah is somehow a separate

4:16:034:16:08

entity. This is a farce. The flags

indicate military might. They incite

4:16:084:16:18

hatred on our streets and division

in our communities. I recently went

4:16:184:16:22

to see the Metropolitan Police, to

express great concern about the

4:16:224:16:26

expressions of hatred on our

streets, specifically in relation to

4:16:264:16:31

that march, but also in relation to

other recent events. I asked the

4:16:314:16:35

police why they were not taking any

action against this incitement to

4:16:354:16:40

hatred. It was clear in the

discussions that then institute that

4:16:404:16:44

a key factor in the police's failure

to act was fat Hezbollah's political

4:16:444:16:49

wing is not illegal and neither is

displaying the flag. I give way.

4:16:494:16:55

I also have met with the Mike Potter

police -- Metropolitan Police and

4:16:554:17:01

they say they have had a Queens

Counsel opinion which states they

4:17:014:17:04

are not able to take any action for

the very reasons she outlines.

4:17:044:17:08

However, she did not feel it was

appropriate for me to read that

4:17:084:17:12

opinion, but a legal opinion is

simply just that, an opinion.

4:17:124:17:18

The honourable member makes a very

important point, which I think

4:17:184:17:22

should be pursued further. My

discussions with the Metropolitan

4:17:224:17:25

Police made it clear that their

decisions on how to deal with

4:17:254:17:29

individual incidents had to deal

with the legal situation at the

4:17:294:17:33

time, the need to have freedom of

expression and the police's

4:17:334:17:41

interpretation of how those

interact. Opinions are important but

4:17:414:17:44

so is incitement on our streets. It

is time for change. The fallacy that

4:17:444:17:50

Hezbollah has two separate sections

should be exposed. Under UK law,

4:17:504:17:55

only the so-called military wing of

Hezbollah is listed as a proscribed

4:17:554:17:59

terrorist organisation. The evidence

is absolutely clear. The evidence

4:17:594:18:05

abroad and the evidence here in the

UK on our streets. Hezbollah is a

4:18:054:18:12

single terrorist, anti-Semitic

entity. It is guilty of mass murder

4:18:124:18:14

abroad, and terrorism and discord

across the Middle East and now

4:18:144:18:21

imports of anti-Semitism and

anti-western hatred onto the streets

4:18:214:18:25

of London, sowing discord and

division amongst our communities. I

4:18:254:18:30

called the Hezbollah to be banned in

its entirety. I hope the Labour

4:18:304:18:33

front bench is listening and

listening hard to who the

4:18:334:18:37

contributions coming from this side

of the House first it is the

4:18:374:18:40

Government who are responsible for

what happens and I asked the

4:18:404:18:42

Minister take action.

Thank you. I apologise for ducking

4:18:424:18:51

out on my right honourable friend,

because I wanted to Slyney Holocaust

4:18:514:18:54

Memorial Day book and I recommend a

team members take the opportunity

4:18:544:19:00

before it closes in the next

half-hour. -- to sign the Holocaust

4:19:004:19:04

Menem

4:19:044:19:05

Hezbollah claims to be the party of

God, but in fact it is simply a

4:19:084:19:13

genocidal terrorist group based in

Lebanon which seeks the destruction

4:19:134:19:17

of Israel and extermination of all

Jews worldwide. The organisation is

4:19:174:19:21

well-known and I little friend

reminded us of the terror attack

4:19:214:19:25

that took place, killing Jews in the

1994 bombing of a Jewish community

4:19:254:19:30

centre in Buenos Aires, killing 85

people. The young rebel member for

4:19:304:19:35

Dudley North reminded us of the

leader of the Labour Party's, and

4:19:354:19:39

when he described infamously that

Hezbollah were his friends. Well,

4:19:394:19:42

they are no friends of mine.

One important aspect I would like to

4:19:424:19:47

remind the House is Hezbollah is

actually a creation of Iran on one

4:19:474:19:52

of their most important and powerful

international terrorist proxies,

4:19:524:19:57

giving Iran extensive access to the

Arab world. They have provided

4:19:574:20:04

millions of pounds for weapons,

technology and salary for tens of

4:20:044:20:07

thousands of fighters. In June

4:20:074:20:11

Hezbollah General Secretary

confirmed that Hezbollah is open

4:20:114:20:14

about the fact that its budget,

income, expenses, everything eats

4:20:144:20:18

and drinks, its weapons and rockets

come from the Islamic Republic of

4:20:184:20:22

Iran. Before leaving office in 2016,

former UN General Secretary Ban

4:20:224:20:29

Ki-Moon reportedly said he had

concerns about the remarks, stating

4:20:294:20:36

the supply of weapons from Iran to

Hezbollah breached protocol.

4:20:364:20:46

In preparation for the next

attempted conflict with Israel. He

4:20:504:20:55

has repeatedly threatened Israel

with war, saying the bullets are

4:20:554:21:00

ready to strike anywhere in Rozelle

without limits. Their rocket

4:21:004:21:04

factories in Lebanon under Hezbollah

control. The terror group now has up

4:21:044:21:13

to 150,000 rockets, again the member

from Dudley North reminded us,

4:21:134:21:19

capable of striking the whole of

Israel. Last week, Madam Deputy

4:21:194:21:22

Speaker, I presented at petition to

the House of Commons on behalf of

4:21:224:21:27

the people in my constituency,

calling on the Government to

4:21:274:21:31

prescribe the political as well as

the military arm of the Hezbollah

4:21:314:21:34

organisation under the terrorism

2000 act. Currently the Government

4:21:344:21:38

distinguishes between Hezbollah's

so-called political and military

4:21:384:21:42

wings, even though, as has been

said, the group itself does not.

4:21:424:21:48

I attended the Al Quds Day march on

many occasions and most recently I

4:21:484:21:52

attended last year, with former MP

Michael McCann, who spoke at the

4:21:524:21:57

event. We not only spoke but we also

witnessed the yellow flags of

4:21:574:22:01

Hezbollah featuring a large green

assault wife all being waved with

4:22:014:22:06

impunity on our streets and despite

the countless representations that

4:22:064:22:09

have been made by the honourable

member for Liverpool Riverside...

4:22:094:22:16

The Metropolitan Police and

ministers failed to take any action

4:22:164:22:18

upon this. The Islamic human rights

commission, who organised the march,

4:22:184:22:24

have provided guidance on its

website for participants beforehand,

4:22:244:22:27

advising that while flags of

military organisations could not be

4:22:274:22:33

waived, demonstrators could bring a

Hezbollah flag to show support for

4:22:334:22:36

the political wing of Hezbollah. It

takes credit for them to put that on

4:22:364:22:42

their website because I called the

police to ban the march two years

4:22:424:22:45

ago. I received not only abuse but

correspondence from the Islamic

4:22:454:22:51

so-called human rights group, who

told me that they'd never had any

4:22:514:22:55

illegal flags. They were of course

referring to Daesh. They have

4:22:554:23:04

advised people to put a post-it note

on their flag to say they are

4:23:044:23:07

supporting the political and not

military wing. The Home Secretary

4:23:074:23:11

explained recently for an offence to

be committed of displaying a flag,

4:23:114:23:15

the content manner in which it is

displayed must demonstrate that is

4:23:154:23:19

specifically in support of the

prescribed military wing of the

4:23:194:23:23

group. Taking this into account,

flags flown at the March beach at

4:23:234:23:26

their disclaimers as I've already

said, that they don't support the

4:23:264:23:29

military wing but that political

wing, even though we have been

4:23:294:23:34

reminded Hamas itself as it does not

recognise any difference between its

4:23:344:23:37

organisation.

I thank for my honourable friend for

4:23:374:23:45

giving way. I think Hezbollah it is

appalling and I would very much like

4:23:454:23:48

to see it banned. I have one

argument that might say it shouldn't

4:23:484:23:54

be, and that might be that our

security services, and we will never

4:23:544:24:00

know this, I advising the Minister

it is better to keep them where we

4:24:004:24:06

can see them rather than send them

underground. That might be the only

4:24:064:24:12

other went against it.

I thank you

for that intervention. I'm not in

4:24:124:24:15

favour of banning things, I have to

say. But the hurt, resentment,

4:24:154:24:22

agitation and general disruption

that this annual march causes, not

4:24:224:24:26

only the Metropolitan Police but the

people of London, in itself should

4:24:264:24:30

mean that the march should be

banned. This year I called upon the

4:24:304:24:36

Metropolitan Police again not to let

the march go ahead. What was

4:24:364:24:39

infuriating is that days after the

Grenfell Tower fire, when the police

4:24:394:24:44

were massively stretched with such a

tragedy, they insisted it -- on

4:24:444:24:50

going ahead even though the police

did not have the resources to police

4:24:504:24:53

the march and I think that's

reprehensible. This year the march

4:24:534:24:56

was led by the director of the

4:24:564:25:00

-- of the group which the honourable

member for Richmond has already

4:25:034:25:06

mentioned, where he blames the

Grenfell fire tragedy on Zionist

4:25:064:25:13

supporters of the Tory party and

accused the Israeli defence Force of

4:25:134:25:18

being a terrorist organisation which

murdered Palestinian Jews and

4:25:184:25:21

soldiers. They waved slogans

including one stating, we are all

4:25:214:25:28

Hezbollah. Shockingly but perhaps

unsurprisingly, the Leader of the

4:25:284:25:31

Opposition has spoken at this annual

event in the past. I would take this

4:25:314:25:34

opportunity to call upon him not to

do so again in the future.

4:25:344:25:40

Seeing as Hezbollah officials have

repeatedly said Hezbollah is a

4:25:404:25:44

single entity, proudly stating their

resistance is their priority and

4:25:444:25:47

even publicly mocking the UK and

other European countries for

4:25:474:25:51

distinguishing between the two

wings.

Before the honourable

4:25:514:25:56

gentleman moves on, I think he is

making a powerful speech which I

4:25:564:26:00

agree with. Just to say, the

American Lung than Sadiq Khan has,

4:26:004:26:06

in response to the Al Quds Day

march. -- the Mayor of London, he

4:26:064:26:11

has asked for Hezbollah to be

proscribed.

That's a good point and

4:26:114:26:19

I want to respond. Earlier I

intervened on her and I'm grateful

4:26:194:26:23

she took my intervention, and she's

absolutely right. It is not just the

4:26:234:26:27

Labour front bench but also the

Government front bench. I certainly

4:26:274:26:30

hope they hear what I am saying

today, during this speech. It is not

4:26:304:26:38

just one party or another. And I

certainly don't seek to make this a

4:26:384:26:41

party political issue, but I have to

say, when I do see the Shadow Home

4:26:414:26:46

Secretary rolling her eyes at some

of the comments the Labour

4:26:464:26:50

backbenchers have been saying it

makes me think her heart is not

4:26:504:26:53

really in this issue are not

concerned as many of us decide. But

4:26:534:26:59

I go on. The Home Office guidance to

the legislation says under the

4:26:594:27:03

Terrorism Act 2000, the Home

Secretary may prescribe an

4:27:034:27:06

organisation and she believes it is

confirmed in terrorism and is

4:27:064:27:10

proportionate to do so. For the

purposes of the act, this means that

4:27:104:27:15

the organisation commits or

participates in acts of terrorism,

4:27:154:27:18

prepares for terrorism, promotes or

encourages terrorism, including the

4:27:184:27:23

unlawful glorification of terrorism

or is otherwise concerned with

4:27:234:27:25

terrorism. It is worth restating

senior Hezbollah officials have

4:27:254:27:31

openly and repeatedly stated no

substantive separation exist the

4:27:314:27:37

this social political and military

wings. I believe Hezbollah meets the

4:27:374:27:42

criteria for prescription under the

Terrorism Act and is not just to the

4:27:424:27:47

Jewish community who are distressed

by their presence in the UK. It is

4:27:474:27:50

those of us who deplore terrorism

and hate all kinds of bigotry, and

4:27:504:27:54

those of us who want this country to

be a welcoming and safe place for

4:27:544:27:59

many of our diverse communities. A

lot of members are not able to be

4:27:594:28:03

here today because they have

returned to their constituencies, no

4:28:034:28:05

doubt they will be attending the

Holocaust Memorial commemorations

4:28:054:28:10

this weekend. But we must not

underestimate the strength of

4:28:104:28:13

feeling among the British public in

favour of rooting anti-Semitism and

4:28:134:28:17

hatred wherever it occurs.

4:28:174:28:22

Anti-Semitism is rising across

Europe and we are commemorating

4:28:224:28:26

Holocaust wheel day on Saturday and

we must say, enough is enough --

4:28:264:28:32

Holocaust Remembrance Day. We will

finally put aside the mistaken

4:28:324:28:39

belief that there is a political

wing of Hezbollah and its invaders

4:28:394:28:42

not exist. My constituents do not

think we should wait any longer

4:28:424:28:47

before admitting this -- it simply

does not exist.

Thank you very much

4:28:474:28:53

for them I want to thank the member

for Enfield North for securing this

4:28:534:28:59

very important debate. It has indeed

been an excellent debate for the I

4:28:594:29:06

feel it is very important that the

Home Secretary takes a clear look at

4:29:064:29:10

Hezbollah and their activities and

the British and is they take.

4:29:104:29:13

Hezbollah are involved -- and the

positions they take. Hezbollah have

4:29:134:29:21

made clear they want to wipe Israel

off the face of the earth, but the

4:29:214:29:24

main concern I have is the

anti-Semitic language. I want to

4:29:244:29:28

take a moment to read at some of the

comments made by leaders of

4:29:284:29:32

Hezbollah differently emphasise and

understand the shocking nature of

4:29:324:29:35

these comments. Hezbollah's leader

is quoted as saying, and I quote

4:29:354:29:43

with deep discomfort, the Jews are a

cancer that are liable to spread at

4:29:434:29:51

any moment, and he also said if they

gather in Israel it will save us the

4:29:514:29:56

trouble of going after them

worldwide. It is also his deputy. He

4:29:564:30:03

is quoted as saying, the history of

Jews that regardless of the Zionist

4:30:034:30:09

proposal they are evil in their

ideas. I'm sure that members from

4:30:094:30:15

across this house as we have heard

will agree that these comments are

4:30:154:30:20

utterly deplorable and should be

challenged at every opportunity.

4:30:204:30:24

This language should not be allowed

to continue as it feeds into their

4:30:244:30:28

terrorist ideology which calls for

the destruction of Israel but also

4:30:284:30:33

the wider Jewish people. This is

something we have heard in the past

4:30:334:30:37

and we stood against it then and we

should stand up against it now. This

4:30:374:30:43

language being used in our society

should not be tolerated whether it

4:30:434:30:46

is here or elsewhere in the world.

There is absolutely no place for it.

4:30:464:30:52

What is especially pertinent when

recommitting to standing up to this

4:30:524:30:56

hate filled language is that as we

speak many are gathering just across

4:30:564:31:01

Parliament Square to remember the

Holocaust at the Holocaust Memorial

4:31:014:31:05

Day service at the QE2 centre. I was

torn today, I wanted to take part in

4:31:054:31:11

both but I chose to come here to

this house. To make this speech.

4:31:114:31:17

Only a week ago in this chamber

colleagues stood here movingly and

4:31:174:31:19

marked this auspicious day. The

theme of this year's Holocaust

4:31:194:31:25

Memorial Day is the power of words

with an aim to explore how language

4:31:254:31:29

was used in the past and is still

used in the present. It reminds us

4:31:294:31:35

to never be complacent. Right now an

organisation is lawfully allowed to

4:31:354:31:41

be supported in this country who

calls for the annihilation of one of

4:31:414:31:46

our allies and a whole ethnic

population and last year saw their

4:31:464:31:51

flags flown on the streets of our

capital. Hatred should not go

4:31:514:31:56

unchallenged where ever it may raise

its ugly head. The British

4:31:564:32:01

government must stand strong with

resolve to say enough is enough and

4:32:014:32:04

we will not stand for their hatred

and terrorist activities. We can all

4:32:044:32:10

agree that Hezbollah are a dangerous

organisation who commit terrorist

4:32:104:32:13

crimes across the world in the name

of their warped view of Islam and

4:32:134:32:20

repeatedly vocalise hate filled

language towards a group which they

4:32:204:32:23

wish to exterminate. There is no

room for their deep-seated hatred.

4:32:234:32:29

None at all. In response to this

debate I hope the Home Secretary,

4:32:294:32:33

although not present, will listen in

full to the concerns raised from

4:32:334:32:39

across this house today. Thank you.

Jim Shannon.

It is a prejudice big

4:32:394:32:47

in this house but a particular

pleasure to speak on this issue --

4:32:474:32:54

it is a pleasure to speak in this

house. Following all the other

4:32:544:32:59

contributions by members. If you

don't mind the doing so, the lady

4:32:594:33:07

from Enfield North, thanks setting

the scene for everyone. Whenever I

4:33:074:33:13

was asked would I accompany her to

the backbench committee to request

4:33:134:33:19

this debate I was happy to do so

because this is something I feel in

4:33:194:33:22

my heart that I want to be part of,

this debate. As someone who has

4:33:224:33:29

lived through a terrorist conflict

and bear the emotional and physical

4:33:294:33:33

scars which others have, this topic

is of great interest. The first

4:33:334:33:41

question we should ask ourselves,

what is the first duty of

4:33:414:33:48

government, and that has been

outlined by every member, to protect

4:33:484:33:52

the public, and are we protecting

the public, can we do better? Yes,

4:33:524:33:55

we can. The requirement for

protection cannot be guaranteed but

4:33:554:34:02

there will also always be those who

are determined to break through any

4:34:024:34:06

protective measures a government has

put in place by the government has

4:34:064:34:10

got to do what it can to make sure

people can go about the business of

4:34:104:34:15

their lives without facing attack.

This debate is taking place today

4:34:154:34:22

because it marks a failure to

provide the protection. The 4th of

4:34:224:34:28

June, 2017, the day after the London

Bridge terror attack, 48 people and

4:34:284:34:31

48 people were injured. The Prime

Minister said, we have made

4:34:314:34:39

significant progress, but there is

to be frank too much tolerance of

4:34:394:34:43

extremism in our country, so be need

to become far more of us to.

4:34:434:34:49

Stamping it out across the public

sector and society for the that will

4:34:494:34:54

take some difficult, stations, but

the whole of the country needs to

4:34:544:34:57

come together to take on this

extremism, that was the Prime

4:34:574:35:02

Minister in her statement at that

time -- difficult conversations.

4:35:024:35:09

There was a first hand account of

what this person had witnessed

4:35:114:35:20

regarding Hezbollah. He said some

people were walking the streets of

4:35:204:35:26

the city waving the flag of a

genocidal terrorist group by

4:35:264:35:32

simultaneously mocking the British

laws that allow them to do so and

4:35:324:35:34

how frustrating that was, they said.

That is no greater illustration of

4:35:344:35:39

the primaries are's view that we are

too tolerant of extremists like this

4:35:394:35:43

and that is why this debate is so

important -- Prime Minister's view.

4:35:434:35:50

2017 was a year marked with

terrorist attacks in London and

4:35:504:35:54

Manchester and our government

allowed this to take place, but I

4:35:544:35:57

questioned why. The Home Secretary

said it would come back to debate

4:35:574:36:03

the issue with them, and I

understand there has been a chasm of

4:36:034:36:08

silence since then and that is

concerning. As with many issues,

4:36:084:36:15

there may be a belief that if we let

matters at, sometimes people don't

4:36:154:36:21

demand for action to be taken, but

this is not one of those times and

4:36:214:36:25

we need action, but I thank the lady

from Enfield North and other

4:36:254:36:30

colleagues who have backed the call

for this debate. We have had a

4:36:304:36:35

discussion today and hopefully

action, and we do look to the

4:36:354:36:40

minister, and the call for action

which is coming from every member.

4:36:404:36:44

Let me make something quite clear,

this is not a campaign to satisfy a

4:36:444:36:47

handful of MPs, it goes wider than

that. More than 10,000 people have

4:36:474:36:56

written to their MPs to register

their concerns about the

4:36:564:37:00

government's delusion that Hezbollah

is two separate organisations and to

4:37:004:37:05

highlight their duty which is to

protect the public. Hezbollah is a

4:37:054:37:12

single organisation with a single

command structure, which has been

4:37:124:37:15

proven beyond out. The government's

own assessment of their capability

4:37:154:37:20

not only renders the government's

untenable and shows the evidence,

4:37:204:37:27

but I'm concerned that we are not

being given the full story about the

4:37:274:37:30

need that is there. The gentleman

referred there might be some

4:37:304:37:36

evidential base out there and we

want to see that, but the government

4:37:364:37:39

is also aware of the sleepers that

there are four Hezbollah and by

4:37:394:37:44

watching them, as well. Those who

think they are not being seen, let

4:37:444:37:49

me be clear, they are being seen and

we know who they are. A few days ago

4:37:494:37:55

the minister stated the military and

political activities of Hezbollah

4:37:554:38:00

are distinct. No links exist between

the leaders. UK believes the

4:38:004:38:10

external organisation of 2001, and

in 2008 the prescription was

4:38:104:38:15

extended to the military apparatus

of Hezbollah, but I think we are

4:38:154:38:21

dragging our feet with the action

needs to be taken and we are putting

4:38:214:38:24

the British people in grave danger,

but that is Aris 's ability -- that

4:38:244:38:29

is our responsibility of the.

Please

do not think that I support

4:38:294:38:36

Hezbollah, but there may be some

reason that we can't know about, and

4:38:364:38:41

having been intelligence, that they

are not actually banning the

4:38:414:38:46

political wing of Root in this

country, it might be something very

4:38:464:38:53

important -- the political wing of

Hezbollah in this country. Otherwise

4:38:534:38:56

it might be much much of God. I

don't know. -- it might be much more

4:38:564:39:01

difficult.

Thank you for your

intervention. That's be clear, we

4:39:014:39:07

want the prescription of Hezbollah,

that is the thrust of the debate,

4:39:074:39:11

that is what we are about. There is

no two wings of Hezbollah and that

4:39:114:39:16

is very clear.

Just to clarify. Most

members of the Armed Forces can't

4:39:164:39:23

comment on these issues but very

senior members of our Armed Forces

4:39:234:39:29

when they are no longer active

serving members, they have made it

4:39:294:39:33

very clear that they think this is a

false division and it should be

4:39:334:39:39

prescribed in its entirety and I

agree with them, although I

4:39:394:39:45

understand the honourable gentleman

is not saying he supports Hezbollah.

4:39:454:39:50

I'm going to come onto one example

of a late soldier who has clearly

4:39:504:39:56

got knowledge and his position will

become clear, and maybe for everyone

4:39:564:40:02

in the chamber, we can see why we

need it and why we want it.

4:40:024:40:07

Hezbollah leaders have said there is

no separation between their

4:40:074:40:14

components, and it meets the

criteria for description under the

4:40:144:40:16

terrorism act. Their leaders have

supported jihad and martyrdom, and

4:40:164:40:22

they have been responsible for

attacks on Jewish people across the

4:40:224:40:25

globe, everyone has said it, but

last year the member for Newark

4:40:254:40:31

sought members walking down Oxford

Street with Hezbollah flags -- saw.

4:40:314:40:40

If that is not provocative and

illegal, I would like to know what

4:40:404:40:44

is. There was inflammatory rhetoric.

The purpose of the demonstration was

4:40:444:40:51

to agitate for violent resistance

and the destruction of the state of

4:40:514:40:58

Israel and the context is

militaristic and not political, and

4:40:584:41:06

this is a fabricated division that

allows public support for a

4:41:064:41:09

terrorist organisation and the

presence of anti-Semitism to

4:41:094:41:14

flourish freely on our streets. In

this house, members have made clear

4:41:144:41:18

that we have taken a stance against

anti-Semitism and the government has

4:41:184:41:23

taken a stance against anti-Semitism

and there are others who need to be

4:41:234:41:27

stronger when it comes to taking

their stance and we would encourage

4:41:274:41:30

them to do so, and the actions are

Dutchman to the social Tahitian and

4:41:304:41:37

they damage societies with agents

and that is why Hezbollah must be

4:41:374:41:44

banned -- the actions are damaging

to social cohesion. Someone who's

4:41:444:41:53

credentials are impeccable, the

Foreign Office deludes itself by

4:41:534:42:02

appeasing Hezbollah and it will do

is killing elsewhere, a status gives

4:42:024:42:07

legitimacy to Hezbollah, Britain and

the rest of the EU hope to mollify

4:42:074:42:14

Iran, the biggest state supporter of

terrorism, and they know designating

4:42:144:42:18

Hezbollah would anger the

Ayatollahs.

He is right to refer to

4:42:184:42:26

Richard camp and I referred to the

Lord of the General staff who made

4:42:264:42:31

exactly the same point. I'm not

calling into question the member for

4:42:314:42:36

Beckenham's motives or questioning

why he said what he said, but the

4:42:364:42:43

fact that Richard camp and the Lord

both made the opposite point, I

4:42:434:42:50

think they would be aware if such

intelligence existed.

Absolutely.

4:42:504:42:55

Thank you for that intervention. The

extra evidential base which we need

4:42:554:43:01

for this debate and which he has put

on record.

4:43:014:43:09

In a Foreign Office is creating

delusions. Col Richard Campbell was

4:43:094:43:14

my column in The Times demonstrates

Antigua explained during the

4:43:144:43:23

campaigns in Iraq and Afghanistan,

his brother was involved in directed

4:43:234:43:26

bombings that killed well over 1000

British and US service men. Despite

4:43:264:43:31

this, his brother raise funds for

terrorism. They plant and maintain

4:43:314:43:42

cells in this country, planning and

lying in wait for orders to attack.

4:43:424:43:50

Can I commend our security forces

for their really good work that

4:43:504:43:53

everyone in this house endorses and

supports and the intelligence

4:43:534:43:57

services we have are the best in the

world and we are happy to have them.

4:43:574:44:02

When you hear those things, you have

already said it yourself, those who

4:44:024:44:13

seek to appease in the Foreign

Office, fearful of offending the

4:44:134:44:23

Ayatollahs which has been implicit

in the killing of British soldiers,

4:44:234:44:27

we have the responsibility to look

after and nurture and care for those

4:44:274:44:31

British soldiers. This cannot be

allowed to continue. It is about

4:44:314:44:36

time the government does the right

thing and bands his brother. What

4:44:364:44:41

will it achieve? Let me quote his

brother's Secretary General. The

4:44:414:44:45

sources of our funding would dry up

and the sources of moral, political

4:44:454:44:54

and material support would be

destroyed. If you want a good reason

4:44:544:45:00

for prescribing his brother, that

would be a good one.

Does the

4:45:004:45:04

honourable member agreed this is the

consequence of the Iranian nuclear

4:45:044:45:07

deal that money is going from Iran

directly to his brother and other

4:45:074:45:11

terrorist proxies in the Middle

East?

And that the honourable

4:45:114:45:16

gentleman and I agree. Can I commend

him for these contributions in this

4:45:164:45:21

house. He has been a style what

supporter and I know we have had

4:45:214:45:25

debate in the House and when we were

speaking about the Iran nuclear deal

4:45:254:45:30

he was an asset to the House, saying

the same thing. It was good to have

4:45:304:45:36

that consensus of opinion will stop

many others joined as well. The

4:45:364:45:41

reason why we need to do it is

because of that very reason. The

4:45:414:45:49

money will dry up and the funding

will dry up and we take away their

4:45:494:45:53

moral, political support and that

will all be destroyed.

Will he agree

4:45:534:46:00

with me that extending prescription

in the way pretty much every member

4:46:004:46:05

has called for is really important

if we are to ensure Hizbollah cannot

4:46:054:46:09

use the banking system in this

country to further their evil ends?

4:46:094:46:15

I thank the honourable lady for

that. You starve them of their

4:46:154:46:19

monies and their funds and you take

away the blood that they exist on.

4:46:194:46:26

It is important we do that and by

prescribing his brother and by

4:46:264:46:30

removing all the resources and the

bones of the system they have, I

4:46:304:46:34

think that is one way of doing it. I

believe the British people, and I

4:46:344:46:41

would happily

4:46:414:46:52

accept proscription.

Whilst we

require proscription completely, we

4:46:534:47:02

should never lose sight of the fact

it is a proxy for the Iranian

4:47:024:47:06

Islamic Revolutionary guard Corps

which is causing so much havoc and

4:47:064:47:10

distress throughout the Middle East

and beyond?

I thank the honourable

4:47:104:47:17

gentleman and fully endorses

sentiments in relation to that. It

4:47:174:47:20

is clear to me and to us all in this

house that the Iranian National

4:47:204:47:26

Guard have such control that the

encourage his brother. Everywhere in

4:47:264:47:35

the world where there is contention,

murder, conflict, that is the

4:47:354:47:41

frustration we have. Putting the

public at risk is at the very best

4:47:414:47:56

complacent and at the worst

disastrous for public security. In

4:47:564:48:00

memory of the British victims of his

brother, this terror group, this

4:48:004:48:05

some of the Earth I believe should

be banned from today and further

4:48:054:48:10

afield.

Stuart MacDonald.

This debate has been a passion one

4:48:104:48:19

but also a thoughtful one and I

congratulate the honourable member

4:48:194:48:22

for Enfield North and her colleagues

for bringing it to the House.

4:48:224:48:26

Members have repeatedly made clear

that his brother in the broadest

4:48:264:48:30

sense has engaged in atrocious

terrorist activities. They have

4:48:304:48:35

highlighted the tags in the Middle

East, but beyond. In Buena Syriza in

4:48:354:48:41

1994 there was the bombing of the

Israeli Embassy and the destination

4:48:414:48:46

of explosives outside the

Argentinian Israeli Association.

4:48:464:48:52

Targets have included Thailand,

Nigeria, Cyprus and many other

4:48:524:48:55

countries. Others have highlighted

the knock-on consequences of

4:48:554:49:07

sticking with partial proscription.

Is there any possible counter

4:49:074:49:13

argument? In supporting what we

could call partial proscription, the

4:49:134:49:19

Home Office pointed to a legitimate

rule that his brother plays in

4:49:194:49:27

Lebanon when the security minister

pointed out that his brother forms

4:49:274:49:31

part of the government of Lebanon.

Much of the debate today has focused

4:49:314:49:36

on whether it is one organisation

and whether it is realistic to

4:49:364:49:39

divided into different parts like

some countries do for the purposes

4:49:394:49:46

of proscription. If the military

wing is reviewed as not separate, we

4:49:464:49:53

should review the situation. Members

have argued these are false and

4:49:534:49:58

unreal distinctions even in the

rhetoric of the his brother members

4:49:584:50:03

themselves. The next question is

does it matter there is a degree of

4:50:034:50:11

unity at the top if there are clear

and distinct branches that can be

4:50:114:50:15

separated? Different countries have

taken different approaches to that

4:50:154:50:20

question. For the Netherlands it did

matter and it was conclusive and in

4:50:204:50:24

the annual report in 2004 there

security services stated, the his

4:50:244:50:31

brother political and terrorist

wings are controlled by one

4:50:314:50:34

coordinating Council and there is a

link between these parts of the

4:50:344:50:38

organisation and that allows it to

change its policy and no longer

4:50:384:50:43

makes the distinction between

political and terrorist his brother

4:50:434:50:46

branches. But not all countries take

that approach and it is not the

4:50:464:50:50

approach taken in Australia. It

refers to an external security

4:50:504:50:56

organisation which is listed, but

not his brother as a whole. They

4:50:564:51:05

have been described as a political

organisation with deep roots in the

4:51:054:51:11

Lebanese society which maintain a

network that encompasses health and

4:51:114:51:16

education. But there is also a

branch responsible for the execution

4:51:164:51:22

of terrorist attacks against his

brother's enemies outside Lebanon.

4:51:224:51:28

Despite the fact that the Australian

government takes the view that it is

4:51:284:51:32

a branch. Some members have pointed

out it is relevant to note that

4:51:324:51:41

under the 2000 act, the Home Office

has powers, but not a duty to

4:51:414:51:46

describe the organisation. One

wonders whether there are other

4:51:464:51:51

considerations at play, including a

desire to keep certain diplomatic

4:51:514:51:54

channels open. The president of

Lebanon in the past has previously

4:51:544:52:00

asked the EU and member countries

not to have proscription of his

4:52:004:52:06

brother. Those countries that do

have proscription of the whole group

4:52:064:52:17

say it does have a diplomatic role,

it does not have to end there. One

4:52:174:52:22

problem I have raised before in

relation to debates on the

4:52:224:52:27

proscription of terrorist

organisations is a drop in the ocean

4:52:274:52:37

compared to what decision will be

made. In conclusion, once again I

4:52:374:52:51

congratulate honourable members for

bringing this debate and for posing

4:52:514:52:55

serious and difficult questions to

the government. I await the

4:52:554:52:59

minister's responds with interest

because it is fair to say so far

4:52:594:53:02

there has not been any coherent

counterargument. Thomas Simons.

4:53:024:53:08

Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

am grateful to the backbench

4:53:084:53:13

business committee for agreeing to

the application led by my right arm

4:53:134:53:17

will bring, the member for Enfield

North, and for bringing forward

4:53:174:53:22

these important issues. Whilst

nobody in the House would deny the

4:53:224:53:26

right to peaceful protest, we should

of course debate in this house when

4:53:264:53:30

there is a fence and distress caused

by public displays and we should

4:53:304:53:34

also be debating these very

important issues of proscription. I

4:53:344:53:38

thank my honourable friend the

member is for Dudley North,

4:53:384:53:43

Liverpool Riverside and Washington

and Sunderland West for their

4:53:434:53:46

contributions to the debate today. I

want to deal with this issue of the

4:53:464:53:52

displaying of his brother flags

which in the short-term is what has

4:53:524:53:55

led to this debate coming forward.

But can I say at the outset that we

4:53:554:54:01

on these benches unequivocally

condemn support for violence and

4:54:014:54:04

acts of terrorism, the likes of

which have been described in the

4:54:044:54:10

chamber today. We are grateful to

the police and our security services

4:54:104:54:14

for the work that they do on a daily

basis in keeping us all safe. Many

4:54:144:54:19

members have spoken about the

current position regarding

4:54:194:54:23

proscription. It is correct that in

March 2001, the his brother external

4:54:234:54:31

security organisation, part of the

military wing, was prescribed. In

4:54:314:54:37

July 2008 that was extended to the

whole military wing including the

4:54:374:54:42

jihad Council. The then Home Office

minister, Tony McNulty, a former

4:54:424:54:46

member of this house said in this

house on the 2nd of July 2008, the

4:54:464:54:52

proscription of his brother's

military wing would not affect the

4:54:524:54:56

role it played in Lebanon but it

would send out a clear message that

4:54:564:55:00

we condemn his brother's violence

and support for terrorism. It is the

4:55:004:55:05

case today that his brother forms

part of the Parliament of Lebanon.

4:55:054:55:11

In December of last year security

minister said, quote, those

4:55:114:55:15

organisations including his brother

are not prescribed in their

4:55:154:55:25

entirety, but the proscription in

Lebanon only applies to the military

4:55:254:55:28

wing. It is for the government to

keep under review the organisations

4:55:284:55:32

for proscription. I would suggest in

difficult and volatile situations

4:55:324:55:40

there has to be a balance between

making absolutely clear our

4:55:404:55:46

abhorrence for using violence to

achieve political ends, but at the

4:55:464:55:50

same time seeking to facilitate and

encourage solutions to conflict

4:55:504:55:55

through participation in the

democratic process. It is for the

4:55:554:55:59

government on the information it has

before it, not all of which may be

4:55:594:56:05

in the public domain, to be vigilant

in keeping the lists of

4:56:054:56:09

organisations under review. The

statutory test is under the

4:56:094:56:14

terrorism act of 2000. As the

opposition we will hold the

4:56:144:56:18

government to account in its

application of the test as we did

4:56:184:56:21

before Christmas in relation to a

number of other organisations. I

4:56:214:56:25

would ask the Minister for his

assurance that the situation is

4:56:254:56:31

always kept under review. I want to

return to the current position with

4:56:314:56:37

the proscription situation as it is.

I want to make one remark as an

4:56:374:56:41

aside. I think it is important that

there is a document containing the

4:56:414:56:48

position of the Labour front bench

that got into the public domain

4:56:484:56:52

today. Whilst colleagues may or may

not disagree with that, there is an

4:56:524:56:56

issue in that the front of that

document contains the work e-mail

4:56:564:57:00

address of a member of my staff who,

before I came into the chamber, had

4:57:004:57:05

already received an e-mail which

made it clear that they thought he

4:57:054:57:15

was responsible for the position. I

want us in this has to take

4:57:154:57:28

responsibility for our positions, it

is not for the staff who do an

4:57:284:57:33

excellent job for us to do it. I was

interested in the remarks may be the

4:57:334:57:38

honourable member for Hendon that

for the displaying of the flag to be

4:57:384:57:43

an offence under section 13 of the

terrorism act, 2000, it is true it

4:57:434:57:48

has to be in support of the

prescribed elements of the group.

4:57:484:57:55

I haven't read the QC's advice that

was referred to but I would be

4:57:554:57:59

interested to have a dialogue with

the Metropolitan plays or other

4:57:594:58:03

police forces on this matter because

firstly you have the issue of law

4:58:034:58:08

enforcement agencies on the ground

that judge the context and

4:58:084:58:13

circumstances in which the flag is

flown but that is in relation to the

4:58:134:58:16

terrorism act of 2000 and there are

other wider criminal offences in

4:58:164:58:22

respect of public order, displays

that cause harassment and alarm and

4:58:224:58:26

distress and issues about

incitement, all of which can be

4:58:264:58:28

enforced. On the streets of our

country. I would be very happy to

4:58:284:58:35

give way.

He is completely right to

say that the e-mail address of his

4:58:354:58:41

member of staff should not be

displayed on the internet. I imagine

4:58:414:58:45

he's referring to the brief. He is

completely right about that but I'm

4:58:454:58:50

also concerned about some of the

contents, given that it's a racist

4:58:504:58:55

document, why doesn't it mention the

anti-Semitism of Hezbollah and why

4:58:554:59:01

does it suggest that they could be a

partner for peace when it is clear

4:59:014:59:04

that they have no interest in the

peace process between Israel and the

4:59:044:59:07

Palestinians?

Can I make two points,

firstly when briefs are prepared

4:59:074:59:15

they tend to focus... We condemn

anti-Semitism in all its forms, to

4:59:154:59:24

be clear, but with regard piece

going forward I would make the point

4:59:244:59:30

that we do have to be careful in

terms of coming off diplomatic

4:59:304:59:33

channels. Only a few months ago, I

read the Commons made by the former

4:59:334:59:39

prime ministers Tony Blair in

respect of Hamas and he was talking

4:59:394:59:46

about the boycott of Hamas after the

Palestinian elections of 2006 and

4:59:464:59:49

this is what Tony Blair said. " In

retrospect we should have right at

4:59:494:59:55

the beginning tried to bring Hamas

into a dialogue and shifted their

4:59:554:59:58

positions and I think that is what

we should have done in retrospect"

4:59:585:00:03

positions and I think that is what

we should have done in retrospect".

5:00:035:00:06

I don't underplay terrorist acts,

but in these very difficult

5:00:065:00:11

conflicts around the world, we are

just careful about our maintenance

5:00:115:00:14

of engagement. I will give way first

to the member for which could park.

5:00:145:00:22

-- Richmond Park.

Can you think of

an example of any time where not

5:00:225:00:29

prescribing the whole of Hezbollah

has not facilitated a move towards

5:00:295:00:33

peace?

It is a counterfactual

question as to what would have

5:00:335:00:39

happened if the organisation had not

been prescribed and I'm sure that

5:00:395:00:44

the gentleman would appreciate that

that is entirely hypothetical. I

5:00:445:00:46

will give way.

Hezbollah is a

genocidal violent terrorist

5:00:465:00:55

organisation dedicated to the

destruction of the state of Israel

5:00:555:00:57

and I challenge the opposition front

bench to support the cause that have

5:00:575:01:02

come from all sides of the house to

prescribe it in its entirety.

Nobody

5:01:025:01:07

supports these terrible violent

barbaric acts. We simply look at the

5:01:075:01:15

situation as it is an try to strike

a balance. I have set out the

5:01:155:01:24

position... I have already set out

the position that I would be happy

5:01:245:01:28

to speak to police forces around the

country about use of the powers they

5:01:285:01:31

have at the moment. We condemn the

violence absolutely and we continue

5:01:315:01:37

to support the prescription of the

military wing as has been the

5:01:375:01:41

position of government. Let me just

make this one point and then I will

5:01:415:01:46

give way. We believe engagement with

the government in parliament of

5:01:465:01:51

Lebanon is very important in terms

of the wider Middle East peace

5:01:515:01:56

process and I would so be say we

should be careful about damaging

5:01:565:01:59

that engagement but of course it is

a question of balance.

It was of

5:01:595:02:08

course a Labour government in 2008

that drew the distinction between

5:02:085:02:12

the military wing and the political

wing of Hezbollah. Everybody who has

5:02:125:02:17

spoken in this debate regards that

as a nonsense and affection, what is

5:02:175:02:21

the position of the labour front

bench on that? -- nonsense.

I would

5:02:215:02:30

simply observe that the activities

are distinct, the activities of

5:02:305:02:34

violence on the one hand which we

absolutely condemn but on the other

5:02:345:02:38

engagement with the democratic

process. I would simply say that we

5:02:385:02:43

on these benches have supported the

balance that the government is

5:02:435:02:49

striking, that isn't to say that I'm

not very sensitive to the views I've

5:02:495:02:53

heard around the chamber and I

respect the views from all around

5:02:535:02:58

the house but we do believe when

analysing these very important

5:02:585:03:04

matters of prescription that the

balance as it stands of prescribing

5:03:045:03:07

the military wing should not be

extended to the political wing for

5:03:075:03:13

the reasons we have set out.

Minister.

Thank you. I but like to

5:03:135:03:23

congratulate members including the

member for Enfield North for

5:03:235:03:25

securing this debate today -- I

would. The government is proud to be

5:03:255:03:31

a friend of Israel and proud to

support working with Israel and no

5:03:315:03:36

one on this side of the house and

not many in this house supports the

5:03:365:03:40

use of terrorism Paris violence --

and no one in this house supports

5:03:405:03:48

the use of terrorism and violence

for the I have first-hand experience

5:03:485:03:52

of violence and intimidation and

terrorism and no one more than the

5:03:525:03:57

wants to see people that use

violence to progress their beliefs,

5:03:575:04:02

be stopped and prosecuted and put

away or giving out of this country

5:04:025:04:10

at the bare minimum. Maybe I should

start by reassuring members that as

5:04:105:04:16

the Minister of State for security

and along with the government we are

5:04:165:04:21

determined to do all we can to

minimise the threat from terrorism

5:04:215:04:23

to the UK, to our interests abroad

and our friends abroad, and to

5:04:235:04:30

disrupt those who engage in it.

Prescription is an important part of

5:04:305:04:34

the government's strategy but not

the only part, to disrupt the

5:04:345:04:41

activities of terrorist groups and

those who provide support to them.

5:04:415:04:45

Many members here have said today

already Hezbollah was established in

5:04:455:04:49

the Lebanese Civil War and in the

aftermath of the Israeli incursion

5:04:495:04:54

into Lebanon in 1982 and from the

outset resistance to Israel has been

5:04:545:04:58

an important part of their agenda,

but Hezbollah also represent Lebanon

5:04:585:05:05

Shia community and they have gained

significant support over time from

5:05:055:05:08

that community. Hezbollah provides

social and put in your functions in

5:05:085:05:12

Lebanon and is a major little group

in the largest military state in the

5:05:125:05:20

country and they clearly play an

important role in Lebanon. UK

5:05:205:05:25

Government has held the view that

elements of Hezbollah have been

5:05:255:05:28

involved in conducting and terrorism

and as a result have prescribed

5:05:285:05:32

there is external security

organisation in 2001 -- there is

5:05:325:05:39

external. We have heard comments

about the statements and beliefs and

5:05:395:05:44

we have heard how they are outrages

and disgusting and they should be

5:05:445:05:50

condemned at all opportunities. They

are anti-Semitic and they wish the

5:05:505:05:56

destruction of our friend and ally,

the state of Israel, none of which

5:05:565:05:59

we support. In 2008, in recognition

of more that kind of activity,

5:05:595:06:06

proscription was extended to include

the whole of their military

5:06:065:06:11

apparatus including the jihad

Council and all the units reporting

5:06:115:06:13

to it. Their military wing is also

designated in the UK under the

5:06:135:06:18

terrorist asset freezing act 2010.

Therefore, money or economic

5:06:185:06:26

resources held or controlled by

their military wing in the UK can be

5:06:265:06:30

and will be frozen. In July 2012 the

EU designated Hezbollah's military

5:06:305:06:37

wing as a terrorist organisation

under the EU asset freezing regime.

5:06:375:06:43

While the proscription of their

entirety is kept under review, our

5:06:435:06:48

current position maintains a

balance, and I've heard for many of

5:06:485:06:51

the members today about their view

that they are indivisible and that

5:06:515:06:56

the military and political wing of

Hezbollah cannot be divided and they

5:06:565:07:00

are joined at the hip, they are

centrally led. That is not the view

5:07:005:07:05

of every country, Australia, New

Zealand, and the EU take a

5:07:055:07:11

different...

My Lords, I wish to

adjourn.

The house will now adjourn

5:07:115:07:23

until 430. The contents have it.

...

To reassure some embers, because the

5:07:235:07:41

idea has been put forward that we

draw our military forces or the

5:07:415:07:47

police and Richard Kemp has often

been quoted, but we don't make

5:07:475:07:49

decisions based on ministers around

a cup of coffee, we make them on the

5:07:495:07:54

recommendations submitted to us by

our law enforcement agencies and

5:07:545:07:59

military services, here and

overseas, and make a judgment there.

5:07:595:08:03

I will make way.

He makes the point

that it is not the view of every

5:08:035:08:11

country and every security service

that Hezbollah is indivisible but

5:08:115:08:16

isn't his difficulty that it is

Hezbollah's own view that it is

5:08:165:08:21

indivisible and that they itself

consider it self to be a single

5:08:215:08:24

organisation.

You make a valid point

but it is also difficult which he

5:08:245:08:33

must recognise two separate

Hezbollah from the state of Lebanon.

5:08:335:08:40

Hezbollah is in the Parliament and

in the government and that

5:08:405:08:43

represents a different challenge

than we find with many other

5:08:435:08:47

terrorist groups. I will give way

for the.

The chairman of the foreign

5:08:475:08:56

affairs select committee dealt with

this, with the point about Hezbollah

5:08:565:08:59

being one single organisation, as

the member just said, Hezbollah's

5:08:595:09:09

political affairs official said,

everyone is aware of the fact that

5:09:095:09:14

Hezbollah is one body and one entity

and its military and political wings

5:09:145:09:18

are unified, that is what they are

saying, not what we are saying, that

5:09:185:09:24

is the point the government should

be considering.

With all due

5:09:245:09:29

respect, I also have to take regard

of the point that I do disagree with

5:09:295:09:33

the chair of the foreign affairs

select committee and I visited

5:09:335:09:37

Lebanon in June last year to meet

the government, the Lebanese Armed

5:09:375:09:41

Forces and other agencies including

the United Nations to discuss the

5:09:415:09:45

future of Lebanon and the UK

persistence and I disagree with your

5:09:455:09:49

view about engaging with the

Lebanese government cash assistance.

5:09:495:09:55

-- assistance.

Simple question, does

he believe the United States has any

5:09:555:10:01

difficulty in engaging in dialogue

with Lebanon given that they have

5:10:015:10:07

taken the view that both Atzenbrugg

macro are one and the same, there is

5:10:075:10:10

no division? -- that both parts of

Hezbollah are one and the same.

The

5:10:105:10:18

United States find it harder to

engage with Lebanon than the UK

5:10:185:10:21

Government. I visited the US Embassy

in Beirut and I spent time at the

5:10:215:10:30

oral -- memorial to those killed.

The US did not take these things

5:10:305:10:36

lightly and they do what they can to

secure Lebanon as a strong state,

5:10:365:10:39

but the other part of the

observation, the US has prescribed

5:10:395:10:44

Hezbollah in its entirety for some

time and as we heard from members

5:10:445:10:47

opposite, that hasn't prevented

Hezbollah from growing exponentially

5:10:475:10:53

and it hasn't been a silver bullet

and it hasn't stopped Hezbollah

5:10:535:10:56

behaving as it has, and that is why

I made it clear point that

5:10:565:11:01

proscription is one part of our

tours, indeed in with terrorism and

5:11:015:11:06

hatred and incitement. I said I

would press on before I gave way. We

5:11:065:11:14

don't condone... The government

doesn't condone any terrorist

5:11:145:11:16

activity and we continue to call and

press Hezbollah to end its status as

5:11:165:11:20

an armed group as well as to

participate in the Lebanese

5:11:205:11:24

democratic process on the same terms

as other political parties. As you

5:11:245:11:27

will be aware, groups that are not

included on the list are not free to

5:11:275:11:37

incite hatred, and by not being

prescribed does not mean that you

5:11:375:11:42

can just do lots of things that we

would view as illegal. I will give

5:11:425:11:45

way.

Let's cut through the rhetoric

and ask a simple question, what does

5:11:455:11:52

he think the motivation is of

British nationals flying a foreign

5:11:525:11:57

flag of a political organisation

whose stated aims are to kill every

5:11:575:12:01

Jew and annihilate the state of

Israel?

I'm not going to speak on

5:12:015:12:07

behalf on protesters I've never met

walking down Oxford Street but what

5:12:075:12:10

I will say, and I heard your points

earlier about the frustrations with

5:12:105:12:14

the police in taking action, the

police already have, rancid powers

5:12:145:12:20

to take actions against individuals

under criminal law

5:12:205:12:23

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