Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including an Urgent Question on the border of Northern Ireland with the Republic after Brexit.
Browse content similar to 28/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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statesman-like demeanour which
colleagues should seek to imitate. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:03 | |
Order. Urgent question, Emily
Thornberry. To ask the Secretary of | 0:00:03 | 0:00:14 | |
State for common and -- for
Commonwealth affairs for future | 0:00:14 | 0:00:24 | |
arrangements for border arrangements
for the republican violence. Where | 0:00:24 | 0:00:29 | |
is he? Mr Speaker, I have been asked
to reply. This government has been | 0:00:29 | 0:00:38 | |
consistent in its commitments to
Northern Ireland as the United | 0:00:38 | 0:00:43 | |
Kingdom leaves the European Union.
First, we will never accept any | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
solutions that threaten the economic
or constitutional integrity of the | 0:00:46 | 0:00:51 | |
United Kingdom. Second, we will not
accept a hard border between | 0:00:51 | 0:00:55 | |
Northern Ireland and Ireland which
will reserves the considerable | 0:00:55 | 0:01:01 | |
progress of the political process
over the recent decades. That is | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
consistent with the Prime Minister's
Article 50 letter through to our | 0:01:04 | 0:01:09 | |
paper published last summer and the
Prime Minister's Florence speech at | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
last autumn. Most recently, the
government enshrined both of these | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
commitments quite clearly in the
joint report we agreed with the | 0:01:17 | 0:01:23 | |
European Union in December. I
preserve our commitment to | 0:01:23 | 0:01:30 | |
preserving the integrity of our
internal markets with Northern | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
Ireland. It also guaranteed an
avoidance of a hard border between | 0:01:33 | 0:01:41 | |
Northern Ireland and Ireland
including any checks and controls. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
These agreements were approved
collectively by the entire Cabinet. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:52 | |
Those commitments have not changed
nor will they. Thank you, Mr | 0:01:52 | 0:01:59 | |
Speaker, for granting the urgent
question. I am always pleased to | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
hear from the Minister of State, I
have to say it is an absolute | 0:02:02 | 0:02:08 | |
disgrace and a huge discourtesy to
this House that the Foreign | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
Secretary is not hear himself to
answer the questions of his memo. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:20 | |
Especially as we saw him in London a
few hours ago jogging in the snow | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
and answering questions from the
media. If he can answer their | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
questions he really should be
prepared to answer ours. What is he | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
afraid of? Perhaps it is this, these
questions go to the very heart of | 0:02:32 | 0:02:36 | |
his credibility and the credibility
of previous statements that he is | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
made in this House. On November the
21st I asked the Foreign Secretary | 0:02:40 | 0:02:44 | |
at this dispatch box whether he
stood by the statements he made in | 0:02:44 | 0:02:49 | |
frippery 2016 that a vote for Brexit
would lead the border arrangements | 0:02:49 | 0:02:57 | |
in Northern Ireland absolutely
unchanged. That is what he told the | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
House just three months ago. I
repeat exactly that pledge. There | 0:03:00 | 0:03:05 | |
can be no return to a hard border,
that would be unthinkable. It would | 0:03:05 | 0:03:10 | |
be economic and political madness.
Everybody understands the | 0:03:10 | 0:03:14 | |
ramifications of allowing such a
thing to happen. But last night, Mr | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
Speaker, despite the clear a big
statement from the Foreign | 0:03:18 | 0:03:23 | |
Secretary, we discovered his private
memo to the Prime Minister on the | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
same subjects. And on that, he
wrote, it is wrong to see the task | 0:03:27 | 0:03:33 | |
as maintaining no border. The
government 's task, he said, is to | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
stop the border becoming
significantly harder, but even if, | 0:03:36 | 0:03:42 | |
he wrote, a hard border is
reintroduced, we would expect to see | 0:03:42 | 0:03:47 | |
95% plus of goods past the border
without checks. So let us be clear | 0:03:47 | 0:03:53 | |
what this memo reveals. Contrary to
the Foreign Secretary 's previous | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
statements, he except that there
will have to be changes to the | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
current border arrangements. He
accepts that there will need to be | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
border controls that do not exist at
present. The only debate is their | 0:04:03 | 0:04:09 | |
degree of hardness. But surely the
Foreign Secretary has learned by now | 0:04:09 | 0:04:15 | |
that you cannot just be a little bit
pregnant. Either there is a border | 0:04:15 | 0:04:19 | |
or there is not. So my first
question for the Minister is this, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:24 | |
the Foreign Secretary told this
House that there would be no new | 0:04:24 | 0:04:30 | |
border arrangements and no changes
to the status quo but this memo says | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
the exact opposite. So which is the
truth? What the Foreign Secretary | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
said three months ago in public what
he said three weeks ago in private? | 0:04:39 | 0:04:44 | |
Now, the Foreign Secretary has
already said what we have heard so | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
many times on this issue, that there
is some magical, technical solution | 0:04:47 | 0:04:52 | |
which will allow goods to be checks,
smuggling to be prevented and points | 0:04:52 | 0:04:58 | |
of origin proved as easily as paying
the congestion charge. But here is | 0:04:58 | 0:05:03 | |
the truly magical parts, without
even the installation of cameras. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:08 | |
And as I pressed the Foreign
Secretary repeatedly to tell us how | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
on earth is this possible? Or is it
just another addition to his ever | 0:05:11 | 0:05:18 | |
growing list of fantasy from Boris
Island to the Channel bridge. I | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
welcome the fact that the Foreign
Secretary has already promised the | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
media to his leaked memo in full and
I hope that will provide some | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
answers but can I ask the minister
now for the benefit of this House | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
and so that's my colleagues can
question him on his answer to spell | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
out in detail how this proposed
invisible border will actually work | 0:05:37 | 0:05:43 | |
in practice? Because if he cannot
provide that the tell, Mr Speaker, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:50 | |
we are left with the conclusion that
all of us on this side and | 0:05:50 | 0:05:56 | |
increasing number on his side accept
that the only way to avoid a hard | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
border in Northern Ireland is by
staying in a customs union. The fact | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
is the government knows that. We are
extremely grateful to the Shadow | 0:06:03 | 0:06:11 | |
Foreign Secretary but she has now
exceeded her time. We must leave it | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
there. I have one further sentence
and I am done. Well, very well. Or | 0:06:14 | 0:06:21 | |
that! I will be the judge of these
matters. I'm grateful to you for | 0:06:21 | 0:06:28 | |
your offer of services but I feel
able to cope without one. And the | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
Minister will have suitable time to
respond. One sentence. The truth of | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
this memo is that they are saying
one thing in public what they are | 0:06:36 | 0:06:42 | |
preparing for the reality in private
and it is about time that this | 0:06:42 | 0:06:44 | |
deception was ended. Forgive me. I
don't wish to be discourteous to the | 0:06:44 | 0:06:54 | |
honourable lady and certainly not to
the Minister either, but the | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
Minister of the Cabinet officer is
not a Minister of State, he is a | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
member of the Cabinet. It's so
confusing as to who was going to be | 0:07:00 | 0:07:05 | |
answering to this. I do apologise
for having drafted one script and | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
they're being somebody else. That
was a nice try. It was very generous | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
of me to allow her to make it. Mr
Speaker, anybody would have thought | 0:07:13 | 0:07:19 | |
that the right Honourable lady was
nervous about facing me across the | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
dispatch box again. Now, she did
start by just questioning my | 0:07:22 | 0:07:30 | |
credentials to be here. Can I just
say this, since I both have Cabinet | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
responsibility for Constitutional
affairs, including for the | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
implementation of devolution
throughout the United Kingdom, and | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
since I also chair the Cabinet amity
on the domestic implementation of | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
our Brexit arrangements, it seems to
me perfectly reasonable that I | 0:07:48 | 0:07:53 | |
should be responding to the
questions. She asks about the | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
position of my right honourable
friend the Foreign Secretary, my | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
right honourable friend like every
other member of the Cabinet stands | 0:08:01 | 0:08:07 | |
behind our support for the Belfast
agreement and for the December | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
agreement reached between the United
kingdom and the European Union. We | 0:08:10 | 0:08:16 | |
are now at the very start of a
negotiating period during which we | 0:08:16 | 0:08:21 | |
will be discussing with our partners
in the European Union Howell to give | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
practical effects of the commitments
that were entered into. Both to | 0:08:26 | 0:08:33 | |
ensure that there was no north -
south border between Northern | 0:08:33 | 0:08:40 | |
Ireland and Ireland is and to ensure
that there is no border customs | 0:08:40 | 0:08:45 | |
between Northern Ireland and the
rest of the United Kingdom. The | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
Prime Minister and the tsar have
both said publicly that they believe | 0:08:48 | 0:08:54 | |
-- Taoiseach. The ambitious and deep
and special partnership that we are | 0:08:54 | 0:09:03 | |
seeking with the European Union in
the future. My right honourable | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
friend, the Prime Minister, will be
setting out my details to this on | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
Friday. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
Mr Speaker, we have just heard the
Prime Minister reconfirm her | 0:09:14 | 0:09:22 | |
commitment to keep the Irish border
open. I didn't wholly understand the | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
second half of high reply to me.
Does my right honourable friend | 0:09:25 | 0:09:37 | |
really believe it will be possible
to negotiate a position where the | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
British Government decides what
regulatory convergence it has and | 0:09:41 | 0:09:46 | |
the British Government decides what
regulatory convergence it will not | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
have and the British Government is
free to change its mind and move | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
those boundaries at any time? What
does he think the prospects of | 0:09:53 | 0:09:57 | |
agreeing that with 27 other
sovereign governments? | 0:09:57 | 0:10:03 | |
I do not think there is the need for
any misunderstanding about what the | 0:10:03 | 0:10:11 | |
Prime Minister was saying. On the
date when we leave the European | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
Union, the treaties in the words of
Article 50 cease to apply to the | 0:10:16 | 0:10:21 | |
United Kingdom. The effect of the
withdrawal bill, currently before | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
the House of Lords, is that the
direct effect of European Union law | 0:10:26 | 0:10:35 | |
and diplomacy of European law in the
United Kingdom will be | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
distinguished. What we are now
seeking is an agreement for the | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
future which will take the form of a
treaty governed by international law | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
between United Kingdom and the
continuing entity of the European | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
Union. That is what we are seeking
to do. The Prime Minister will be | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
speaking about this with more detail
on Friday. We know from leaked | 0:10:56 | 0:11:04 | |
government figures that they will
play fast and loose with jobs and | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
the economy in trying to prevent
another Tory civil war and there are | 0:11:07 | 0:11:11 | |
concerns they may be doing the same
thing over the Good Friday peace | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
process to prevent Tory civil war.
Will the Minister tell us, is it | 0:11:15 | 0:11:19 | |
wrong to say the Foreign Secretary
Tasker is maintaining no order? Will | 0:11:19 | 0:11:26 | |
he tell us that if the
implementation BDO is based on the | 0:11:26 | 0:11:33 | |
principles, what impact it will have
on the border? And finally, it is | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
good to see the minister here, I
enjoy a game of where is Wally, it | 0:11:37 | 0:11:44 | |
is astonishing that the Foreign
Secretary is not yet. Mr Speaker, | 0:11:44 | 0:11:51 | |
the entire government is committed
to their being no border between | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
Northern Ireland and Ireland, or
between Northern Ireland and the | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
rest of the United Kingdom. Both
those elements were central to the | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
December joint report. Those are
both firm commitments of the entire | 0:12:03 | 0:12:10 | |
United Kingdom Cabinet and
government. I would say to the | 0:12:10 | 0:12:14 | |
honourable gentleman, that I think
his strictures about the | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
government's approach to jobs and
employment stands somewhat in | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
contrast to the reality, which is
that within the United Kingdom at | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
the moment, we have unemployment at
a 40 year low. Has he seen the | 0:12:27 | 0:12:39 | |
report prepared by the European
Parliament's policy Department first | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
citizen 's right and Constitutional
affairs which concludes that a | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
technical solution that will allow
free movement of persons under the | 0:12:46 | 0:12:51 | |
Common travel arrangement is
possible and that we, there is no | 0:12:51 | 0:12:58 | |
reason that we cannot implement it
straightaway? I haven't had the | 0:12:58 | 0:13:05 | |
pleasure of reading that report from
the European Parliament yet but I | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
will add to my reading list I think
what my honourable friend has said | 0:13:08 | 0:13:13 | |
is that there is evidence that there
are people both here and in the | 0:13:13 | 0:13:18 | |
Brussels institutions and in the 27
national governments of our EU | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
partners who are keen to work
constructively together to find an | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
outcome that actually brings
benefits in the future to resolve. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
Instead of complaining that the
draft withdrawal agreement published | 0:13:30 | 0:13:36 | |
this morning proposes to keep
Northern Ireland in the customs | 0:13:36 | 0:13:39 | |
union, subject to the single energy
market and subject to EU rules on | 0:13:39 | 0:13:45 | |
the environment and agriculture, is
it not time that ministers finally | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
accepted that it is their continuing
failure to explain how they are | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
going to keep an open border while
leaving the customs union and the | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
single market that is the cause of
this problem? So will -- when will | 0:13:57 | 0:14:04 | |
ministers explain when the proposed
to achieve this? I drive the right | 0:14:04 | 0:14:12 | |
honourable gentleman attention that
there were three different options | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
to ensure that there is no hard
border between Ireland and Northern | 0:14:16 | 0:14:22 | |
Ireland. The first of those, and the
one that the government of Ireland | 0:14:22 | 0:14:27 | |
as well as this government is
strongly committed to and wants to | 0:14:27 | 0:14:34 | |
see as the option we are able to
deliver, is the one that settles | 0:14:34 | 0:14:38 | |
this matter in the context of the
overall future economic partnership | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
between the UK and the European
Union. We are looking forward to | 0:14:42 | 0:14:48 | |
beginning the negotiating process
which I hope we'll start off the | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
publication today. Mr Speaker, we
are coming up to the 20th | 0:14:51 | 0:14:57 | |
anniversary of the Good Friday
Agreement which allowed people of | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
this nation to have their own
identity and yet be citizens of the | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
United Kingdom. That agreement also
mocked and three conditions. It | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
could only change with the agreement
of the citizens of Northern Ireland, | 0:15:09 | 0:15:16 | |
the government had to agree, and
that the United Kingdom had to | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
agree. Can you agree with me that
this agreement must not be | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
undermined and those who voted
against it in the past should hang | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
their heads in shame because it is
an agreement that has kept the peace | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
for 20 years? Mr Speaker, I am proud
of what the Belfast agreement has | 0:15:30 | 0:15:38 | |
achieved in making possible a period
of peace and reconciliation with the | 0:15:38 | 0:15:46 | |
Northern Ireland. I think none of us
would claim that process is complete | 0:15:46 | 0:15:51 | |
yet. But I think that the Belfast
agreement was an historic start and | 0:15:51 | 0:15:57 | |
it was attributed to hard work by
successive governments to John Major | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
and to Tony Leer both. I am happy to
pay tribute to both of them. -- Tony | 0:16:01 | 0:16:07 | |
Blair. I think my honourable friend
made the important point in talking | 0:16:07 | 0:16:14 | |
about the principle of consent. The
principle of consent including the | 0:16:14 | 0:16:19 | |
status of Northern Ireland was also
written into the joint report and | 0:16:19 | 0:16:23 | |
signed up to not just by the UK
Government by the European Union as | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
well. Can I welcome what the
Secretary of State has said in this | 0:16:26 | 0:16:38 | |
statement and also what the Prime
Minister said very clearly at Prime | 0:16:38 | 0:16:43 | |
Minister's Questions. It is ironic
is it not that some of those people | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
who complained Harrod is about
creating a hard border between | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
Northern Ireland and the Irish
Republic have today welcome proposal | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
from the EU which would create a
hard brother between Northern | 0:16:54 | 0:16:58 | |
Ireland and the rest of the United
Kingdom. The fact of the marker is | 0:16:58 | 0:17:02 | |
there is a border between North and
South. There are different | 0:17:02 | 0:17:09 | |
currencies, different economic
policies, but it is managed in a way | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
that is sensible and pragmatic. The
same can be done in relation to the | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
future relationship. It has already
been spelt out in the government's | 0:17:17 | 0:17:22 | |
paper last August to use the Belfast
agreement, more despicably to use | 0:17:22 | 0:17:30 | |
the peace process to shave it in the
way that some people want is quite | 0:17:30 | 0:17:33 | |
frankly outrageous and disk visible.
Let's back the arrangements that are | 0:17:33 | 0:17:39 | |
in place but let's go forward and
pragmatic and sensible way not | 0:17:39 | 0:17:45 | |
create things that are not there. I
welcome what the right honourable | 0:17:45 | 0:17:52 | |
member for Belfast has said. Yes,
there is of course a Judas diction | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
order which gives rise to tax and
other differences as well. -- Judas | 0:17:56 | 0:18:02 | |
diction. Those are managed in a way
that allows people to go about the | 0:18:02 | 0:18:07 | |
lives on either side of that border
without any kind of hindrance or | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
delay whatsoever. Both we and the
Irish government are determined to | 0:18:12 | 0:18:18 | |
try and ensure that that state of
affairs continues but also | 0:18:18 | 0:18:23 | |
respecting the integrity of the
United Kingdom. Of all the areas of | 0:18:23 | 0:18:30 | |
the Brexit negotiations which give
rise to high emotion, perhaps the | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
one that most needs to be treated
calmly, rationally and unemotionally | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
as the Irish border. Can my right
honourable friend assured me that | 0:18:39 | 0:18:46 | |
they will continue to deal with this
issue in that calm and rational way, | 0:18:46 | 0:18:52 | |
and in doing that, can they perhaps
persuade the commission 's | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
negotiating side that they should
concentrate, not just on one area of | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
the December joint report, but on
all three areas that were put | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
forward by the British government
originally. I agree wholeheartedly | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
with what might honourable friend
for Ashford says. His emphasis on | 0:19:09 | 0:19:15 | |
all three strands is correct. It is
important they should be no cherry | 0:19:15 | 0:19:20 | |
picking between the different
elements of the December joint | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
report and I think it is important
that we tried to approach these | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
matters in the kind of calm,
pragmatic way that he urged. The | 0:19:27 | 0:19:34 | |
Foreign Secretary has claimed that
congestion technology is the answer | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
to border checks outside of a
customs union. We know that the | 0:19:37 | 0:19:42 | |
congestion charge checks fear is not
what is inside them and includes 197 | 0:19:42 | 0:19:49 | |
camera sites around London that no
one notices because they are in | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
built-up areas and no one cares
because the last time I looked there | 0:19:52 | 0:19:56 | |
had been a long history of peace
between inner and no to London. In | 0:19:56 | 0:20:01 | |
Northern Ireland, there were four
attacks on the lives of police | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
officers. 58 shooting incidents and
the PSN I have warned that any | 0:20:06 | 0:20:13 | |
infrastructure at the Borders is a
threat. So will you confirm that | 0:20:13 | 0:20:18 | |
ministers rule out any physical
infrastructure at the border, that | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
cameras are physical and tell us, do
they rule out new cameras at the | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
border, yes or no? We stand by the
words we committed to ourselves in | 0:20:27 | 0:20:35 | |
December, which includes no physical
infrastructure at the border. Can I | 0:20:35 | 0:20:41 | |
support everything that has been
said by my right honourable friend | 0:20:41 | 0:20:45 | |
and the comets from my right
honourable friend from Ashford. We | 0:20:45 | 0:20:54 | |
are not going to rip our nation
further apart. We not only have to | 0:20:54 | 0:21:00 | |
have a pragmatic approach to browse
about an honest approach to Brexit. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:03 | |
The only solution to a hard border
is membership to the customs union. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:09 | |
They will get there in the end. My
question is this, does he share my | 0:21:09 | 0:21:17 | |
concern about democratic deficit. We
know that 56% of people in Northern | 0:21:17 | 0:21:22 | |
Ireland voted Remain. I wonder why.
In the absence of the executive, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:27 | |
given the composition of those Right
Honourable members who sit in this | 0:21:27 | 0:21:33 | |
place to represent Northern Ireland,
where is the voice of the 56% in all | 0:21:33 | 0:21:38 | |
of this? Mr Speaker, it is the
government's hope that the political | 0:21:38 | 0:21:49 | |
parties in Northern Ireland can
agree to reconstitute the executive | 0:21:49 | 0:21:54 | |
and the assembly as soon as
possible. There is agreement across | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
all the parties in Northern Ireland,
that is what they do want -- that | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
that is what they want to do. I hope
any differences can be overcome. Why | 0:22:04 | 0:22:09 | |
does the Secretary of State think
that the Foreign Secretary wrote | 0:22:09 | 0:22:14 | |
this letter? Was it because he did
not know that the government had | 0:22:14 | 0:22:18 | |
committed in paragraph 49 of the
December agreement to its guaranteed | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
of avoiding a hard border? Or was it
because any commitment can be set | 0:22:24 | 0:22:30 | |
aside in the service of the cause
that the Foreign Secretary really | 0:22:30 | 0:22:34 | |
cares about, which is the
furtherance of his own career? Or | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
was it something more sinister than
Boris's self-love, which is now | 0:22:38 | 0:22:45 | |
faced with the incompatibility of
red lines around the customs union | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
and the single market and the
commitment to no hard border. There | 0:22:49 | 0:22:55 | |
is a concerted ideological attack on
that commitment to no hard border. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
And indeed to the Good Friday
Agreement itself. Mr Speaker, I | 0:22:59 | 0:23:06 | |
don't think I could have been
clearer than I have been so far in | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
these exchanges that the government
is absolutely resolved to stand by | 0:23:10 | 0:23:15 | |
both the Belfast agreement and all
parts of the joint report of last | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
December. Can I see how encouraged I
am that everybody seems to want to | 0:23:19 | 0:23:32 | |
avoid a hard border in Northern
Ireland. The only people who seem to | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
be threatening a hard border are
people who are trying to leveraged | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
their political advantage in
domestic politics and the Republic | 0:23:40 | 0:23:46 | |
of Ireland, trying to blackmail the
whole of the United Kingdom into | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
substantially changing the
referendum result. Far more | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
constituencies voted Leader of the
House than Remain. It would be | 0:23:55 | 0:24:00 | |
politically unsustainable for the
issues around Northern Ireland to | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
leveraged the whole of the United
Kingdom into some kind of customs | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
union as to correct any un-wholly
unnecessary infrastructure at the | 0:24:07 | 0:24:12 | |
border at Northern Ireland. We are
at the start of the negotiations | 0:24:12 | 0:24:17 | |
about the detail of the withdrawal
agreement and then of the creation | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
of the future, deep and special
partnership we are seeking with a | 0:24:20 | 0:24:26 | |
utopian friends and neighbours. --
European. And the economic | 0:24:26 | 0:24:34 | |
partnership is something the Prime
Minister will talk about on Friday. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:39 | |
This is supposed to be a question
and answer session, not debate. I am | 0:24:39 | 0:24:46 | |
getting is years the Astec nods. --
I am getting enthusiastic nods. What | 0:24:46 | 0:24:54 | |
is required is not an oration, but
enquiry, which will either be | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
brilliantly exemplified by Lady
Hermon. What a task and I will keep | 0:24:59 | 0:25:09 | |
to it. May I ask the secretary to
take a few moments to confirm to the | 0:25:09 | 0:25:15 | |
House that the Irish government has
accepted that there will be no hard | 0:25:15 | 0:25:20 | |
border and just as importantly, that
the Irish government has accepted | 0:25:20 | 0:25:25 | |
there will be no border down the
Irish Sea? | 0:25:25 | 0:25:34 | |
The Irish government like the rest
of the EU signs up to and support | 0:25:34 | 0:25:38 | |
its joint report in its entirety of
last December and paragraph 42 of | 0:25:38 | 0:25:42 | |
the joint report commits both
parties, the UK and the EU, to | 0:25:42 | 0:25:50 | |
uphold the totality of relationships
embodied and expressed by the | 0:25:50 | 0:25:55 | |
Belfast agreement. The totality of
relationships embraces East- West, | 0:25:55 | 0:26:00 | |
every bit as much as North- South.
What lies behind the commission's | 0:26:00 | 0:26:08 | |
partial decision to develop the
options? I'm afraid that is not a | 0:26:08 | 0:26:16 | |
question I can readily answer. I
would just say to my right | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
honourable friend that I think it is
important that the commission | 0:26:20 | 0:26:25 | |
recognises, as the Prime Minister
said earlier, that's as far as the | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
government is concerned, which ever
side those of us round the Cabinet | 0:26:28 | 0:26:36 | |
table voted or campaigns for during
the referendum on the EU, our | 0:26:36 | 0:26:41 | |
commitments to the union of the
United Kingdom is absolute. There is | 0:26:41 | 0:26:47 | |
no division whatsoever on this
matter and I hope that our | 0:26:47 | 0:26:52 | |
negotiating partners will understand
that. I understand the Minister's | 0:26:52 | 0:26:59 | |
clear frustration at the Foreign
Secretary that it is not his task to | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
try and defend the border but the
Foreign Secretary did say this | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
morning after his joke that he was
going to publish the memo. When? We | 0:27:07 | 0:27:16 | |
don't publish internal ministerial
correspondence. Mr Speaker, can I | 0:27:16 | 0:27:25 | |
congratulate my right honourable
friend are not being provoked by the | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
ridiculous statements coming from
the European Union on this subject. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:32 | |
Can I commend my right honourable
friend the wise words of the right | 0:27:32 | 0:27:38 | |
honourable member for North Belfast
because that shows that you can have | 0:27:38 | 0:27:42 | |
a border weather is regulatory
divergences as there is at the | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
moments, and why can't continue in
the future? We are certainly seeking | 0:27:45 | 0:27:51 | |
no hard border and hopefully the
government of Ireland is committed | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
to that objective as well. Having
served six years for Minister for | 0:27:56 | 0:28:01 | |
Europe, I'm used to trying to avoid
provocation wherever it comes from. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:10 | |
The Foreign Secretary's absence does
us all we need to know about how | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
accountable he feels he should be to
this House, so I must ask the | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
Minister instead, why was the
Foreign Secretary speculating about | 0:28:17 | 0:28:23 | |
the Northern Ireland - Ireland
border becoming more difficult. -- | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
harder. What was he considering on
the border? The right honourable | 0:28:26 | 0:28:33 | |
gentleman served in the coalition
government. He knows that the way we | 0:28:33 | 0:28:36 | |
do government business is that
ministers right and conversed with | 0:28:36 | 0:28:42 | |
each other all the time but the
policy of the government is the | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
policy that has been at collectively
agreed by the Cabinet. That is what | 0:28:45 | 0:28:53 | |
I am the promised that set up this
afternoon. Can I welcome the | 0:28:53 | 0:28:59 | |
Minister's commitment to the joint
report. Can I ask him to confirm | 0:28:59 | 0:29:04 | |
that it is Her Majesty's government
intention to stick by the agreement | 0:29:04 | 0:29:09 | |
that were outlined in paragraph's 49
and 50 of the joint report and there | 0:29:09 | 0:29:18 | |
is no intention to renege on any
part of them? I can give my right | 0:29:18 | 0:29:23 | |
honourable friend that assurance.
Will the Secretary of State 's | 0:29:23 | 0:29:29 | |
confirm for the benefit of his
backbenchers and perhaps the DUP | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
that the Northern Irish border
backstop provision embodied in | 0:29:32 | 0:29:38 | |
today's draft EU withdrawal
agreement is exactly what the Prime | 0:29:38 | 0:29:42 | |
Minister agreed to as he backstop in
December 2017? And if he disagrees | 0:29:42 | 0:29:48 | |
with me, if he disagrees with me,
will his government produced an | 0:29:48 | 0:29:58 | |
alternative text explaining what he
did agree? What we have today is | 0:29:58 | 0:30:03 | |
something that Mr Barnier has
described as not necessarily the | 0:30:03 | 0:30:10 | |
final version because this is a
draft that the commission is not | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
tabling for negotiation. The
commission is tabling before | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
discussion amongst the EU 27 Head of
State and the European Parliament. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
When text comes to the table for
negotiation, we will obviously | 0:30:20 | 0:30:25 | |
consider that but I think, as the
Prime Minister said earlier, it is | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
important that there is not cherry
picking and that the text of the | 0:30:29 | 0:30:34 | |
withdrawal agreement when it is
eventually concluded reflects all | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
the paragraphs of the joint report
equally and, at the moment, my | 0:30:37 | 0:30:46 | |
feeling on the brief reading I've
had so far, is that the current | 0:30:46 | 0:30:49 | |
draft does not do that. Mr Speaker,
can I welcome what my right | 0:30:49 | 0:30:57 | |
honourable friend has said in
pointing back to the joint report | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
from just before Christmas which
underlined both the commitments to | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
the UK and EU to the Belfast Good
Friday Agreement but also the | 0:31:04 | 0:31:10 | |
constitutional settlement of the UK.
In that regard, can he confirm that | 0:31:10 | 0:31:16 | |
the joint report highlighted that
primarily we need to focus on | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
dealing with the Northern Ireland
border through the broader | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
negotiations and in that regard that
he will encourage colleagues to | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
focus on the August reports that the
government published, setting out in | 0:31:27 | 0:31:31 | |
detail how we should do that? My
right honourable friend give some | 0:31:31 | 0:31:36 | |
very good advice. We are certainly
committed to taking the negotiations | 0:31:36 | 0:31:39 | |
forward in that spirit. If the
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster | 0:31:39 | 0:31:47 | |
really wants a united United Kingdom
as we move forward in a situation | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
where the nation is facing some of
the most congregated decision it is | 0:31:51 | 0:31:55 | |
hard to make the best part of 100
years, is he not going to have to | 0:31:55 | 0:32:00 | |
build a bigger consensus than just
around the Cabinet table? Does that | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
not mean he is going to turn round
to his colleagues and say, yes, you | 0:32:03 | 0:32:12 | |
will come to Parliament and explain
to Parliament what your views are | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
and yes, Prime Minister, just
sometimes you're not going to make a | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
speech somewhere else, you're going
to make a speech about the European | 0:32:19 | 0:32:24 | |
Union, the most important issue
facing this in this chamber. Just | 0:32:24 | 0:32:29 | |
before the Minister offers his
replies I should just advise the | 0:32:29 | 0:32:31 | |
House of what I have been advised,
namely that the Prime Minister will | 0:32:31 | 0:32:37 | |
be making a statement on Brexit
policy in this chamber on Monday. | 0:32:37 | 0:32:44 | |
That I think is extremely welcome. I
should just say in the name of the | 0:32:44 | 0:32:50 | |
intelligibility of our proceedings
to people who are not Members of the | 0:32:50 | 0:32:52 | |
House that the decision as to
whether to grant an urgent question | 0:32:52 | 0:32:57 | |
is a matter for me, the Speaker, to
have been granted today because I | 0:32:57 | 0:33:03 | |
judge that they warranted the
attention of the House, but as | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
colleagues also note and others
might not, the matter of who the | 0:33:06 | 0:33:12 | |
government fields to respond to a
question is a matter for the | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
government. That is the situation.
Minister for the Cabinet Office. Mr | 0:33:16 | 0:33:21 | |
Speaker, I am always someone who
will welcome Parliamentary consensus | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
where that can be built. If the
gentleman looks at the Prime | 0:33:25 | 0:33:29 | |
Minister's records in being here and
giving statements after her main | 0:33:29 | 0:33:36 | |
European meetings and answering
questions at length, he should agree | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
it is a pretty good one. Mr Speaker,
does my right honourable friend | 0:33:39 | 0:33:47 | |
agree with me that the European
Union continues to put the cart | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
before the horse on this aspect?
Surely we cannot know with any | 0:33:50 | 0:33:55 | |
degree of certainty what
arrangements will be needed on the | 0:33:55 | 0:33:59 | |
Ireland border if any at all until
we know what kind of trade agreement | 0:33:59 | 0:34:03 | |
were going to strike. My honourable
friend makes an important point and | 0:34:03 | 0:34:08 | |
that is precisely why that's not
only the Prime Minister, but the | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
Taoiseach believe that the best
option is to settle the border in | 0:34:12 | 0:34:17 | |
the context of the overall economic
partnership between ourselves and | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
the European Union. By leaving the
European Union we are taking control | 0:34:21 | 0:34:28 | |
of our borders such as that at
Holyhead, the government has also | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
committed to no border between the
Republic and Northern Ireland. Can | 0:34:33 | 0:34:37 | |
the minister name any pair of
countries that is regulated by two | 0:34:37 | 0:34:44 | |
difference customs regimes? This is
exactly the point I was making to | 0:34:44 | 0:34:49 | |
the right honourable member for
chicks free. The right way forward | 0:34:49 | 0:34:53 | |
is to resolve these matters on the
future of economic partnership. It | 0:34:53 | 0:35:02 | |
is rightly the determination of the
government to deliver the openly | 0:35:02 | 0:35:07 | |
effective border with the
qualifications made by the right | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
Honourable member for North Belfast,
surely all of the people of the | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
island of Ireland have the right to
that same practical determination to | 0:35:13 | 0:35:19 | |
be shared by the same EU 27 with out
being taking hostage by conditions | 0:35:19 | 0:35:26 | |
that would in effect override the
decision of the British people to | 0:35:26 | 0:35:30 | |
leave the European Union and the
agenda which is quite transparently | 0:35:30 | 0:35:35 | |
on display today. We are at the
start of a process of negotiation, | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
not at the end of it. I do think the
Prime Minister could have been | 0:35:40 | 0:35:47 | |
clearer. No Prime Minister of any
party who has served up until now | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
including her good countenance an
agreement which led to a Customs | 0:35:50 | 0:35:58 | |
border between one part of the
United Kingdom and another. The | 0:35:58 | 0:36:04 | |
Minister has said he wants no border
between Ireland and Northern Ireland | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
but he is also said he does not want
the border between the integral part | 0:36:08 | 0:36:12 | |
of the United kingdom and the rest
of Ireland. Well, I tell you this, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:20 | |
Wells has two borders, one with
Northern Ireland through the port of | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
Holyhead and one with Ireland. What
will happen with that arrangement? | 0:36:23 | 0:36:27 | |
That is precisely why this needs to
be settled when the overall | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
arrangement. The right honourable
gentleman will have noted in the | 0:36:31 | 0:36:36 | |
endorsements of the continuation of
the Common travel area between the | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
United Kingdom and Republic of
Ireland and also the fact that | 0:36:39 | 0:36:43 | |
that's commitments was reflected
today's draft text from the | 0:36:43 | 0:36:46 | |
commission. Would it not be more
sensible and logical if Michel | 0:36:46 | 0:36:56 | |
Barnier focused more on the trade
arrangements on the United Kingdom | 0:36:56 | 0:37:04 | |
and the European Union where they
have a 70 billion pounds surplus | 0:37:04 | 0:37:08 | |
with the united kingdom rather than
focusing just on one part of the | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
United Kingdom? If they do that we
may only need to focus on one part | 0:37:12 | 0:37:19 | |
of the United Kingdom. Well, the
trade surplus that the EU 27 enjoy | 0:37:19 | 0:37:24 | |
with the United Kingdom,
particularly in trading goods, is | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
just one more compelling reason why
it is to our mutual advantage to | 0:37:28 | 0:37:34 | |
negotiate a future economic
partnership which allows trades to | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
be as frictionless as possible. The
Secretary of State is doing his | 0:37:37 | 0:37:42 | |
level best to fudge the principal
question, if we go into negotiations | 0:37:42 | 0:37:49 | |
that there will be no hard border
between the Republic and the | 0:37:49 | 0:37:55 | |
Northern Ireland, and no hard border
down the Irish Sea, how do we begin | 0:37:55 | 0:37:58 | |
to negotiate? What is the mechanism?
The mechanism is set out in the | 0:37:58 | 0:38:04 | |
joint report and in the government's
various speeches and publications | 0:38:04 | 0:38:08 | |
over the last 12 months. The latest
of which the Prime Minister will | 0:38:08 | 0:38:12 | |
deliver this Friday. Thank you, Mr
Speaker. I wonder if my right | 0:38:12 | 0:38:20 | |
honourable friend has pointed out
that the Irish government that the | 0:38:20 | 0:38:24 | |
biggest loser if there is not a
sensible agreement on tariffs are | 0:38:24 | 0:38:29 | |
imposed on Irish goods coming into
the United Kingdom, that the Irish | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
economy, there will be huge
devastation to the Irish | 0:38:32 | 0:38:38 | |
agricultural economy particularly. I
wonder if he is suggested to their | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
Prime Minister the question of
whether his is willing to sacrifice | 0:38:41 | 0:38:45 | |
the interest of the Irish economy on
the high altar of European political | 0:38:45 | 0:38:50 | |
integration? The economies of
Ireland and of the United Kingdom | 0:38:50 | 0:38:58 | |
are indeed intertwines but I would
reassure my honourable friend that | 0:38:58 | 0:39:05 | |
the Irish government and the
Taoiseach are themselves committed | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
in trying to resolve these matters
an option A in the joint report, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:18 | |
mainly through the means of an
overall economic agreement between | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
the United Kingdom and the European
Union. Does he share my astonishment | 0:39:21 | 0:39:36 | |
that is when four years his
leadership and assess watchtowers | 0:39:36 | 0:39:44 | |
and closed roads. Would he not agree
with me that first of all there are | 0:39:44 | 0:39:49 | |
clear practical proposals to avoid a
hard physical border and this | 0:39:49 | 0:39:58 | |
concern about Northern Ireland and
the Irish Republic is more about the | 0:39:58 | 0:40:02 | |
referendum result and keeping them
in the customs union. The | 0:40:02 | 0:40:13 | |
interventions on the front spent
about this week have been about more | 0:40:13 | 0:40:18 | |
about political opportunities than
principle. The way forward is in a | 0:40:18 | 0:40:28 | |
calm pragmatic spirit to take
forward the negotiations that will | 0:40:28 | 0:40:29 | |
shortly commence. Given that goods
and services are routinely traded | 0:40:29 | 0:40:40 | |
across land borders elsewhere in the
European Union is it not possible | 0:40:40 | 0:40:43 | |
that given the political will to
achieve the desired outcome that is | 0:40:43 | 0:40:47 | |
always needed? Will my right
honourable friend ensure that we do | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
not sign up to what the European
Union dictate now but we look at the | 0:40:51 | 0:40:56 | |
creative solution that has been used
elsewhere in EU borders? | 0:40:56 | 0:41:06 | |
Mr Speaker, this House has received
assurance after assurance from the | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
government that there will be no
hard border in Ireland. Why then did | 0:41:10 | 0:41:14 | |
the Foreign Secretary right in his
memo that there was the possibility | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
of such a hard border coming about?
The policy of the government is the | 0:41:17 | 0:41:25 | |
policy that has been agreed by the
Cabinet, set out in error agreement | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
to the joint report last December
and expressed in the speech as the | 0:41:30 | 0:41:35 | |
Prime Minister has given in the last
12 months. -- in error agreement. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:43 | |
The European Union approach to
sequencing these negotiations means | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
that the commission at the moment
only has a mandate to negotiate the | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
implementation phase and therefore
these issues cannot be dealt with | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
until after the end of March. So as
my honourable friend agree that | 0:41:53 | 0:41:58 | |
during this period, the guiding star
for all of us as to be that the | 0:41:58 | 0:42:03 | |
United Kingdom, the Republic of
Ireland and European Union are | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
agreed that there will be no art and
physical border and that this debate | 0:42:06 | 0:42:10 | |
is about the Foreign Secretary spar
with our Foreign Secretary more than | 0:42:10 | 0:42:16 | |
anything else. I think our
honourable friend is spot on. It | 0:42:16 | 0:42:24 | |
seems the government is happy to
contemplate the hard border with | 0:42:24 | 0:42:27 | |
Ireland, which would be a disaster
for Northern Ireland. Is it clear | 0:42:27 | 0:42:32 | |
now that the government has been
negotiating in bad faith with | 0:42:32 | 0:42:36 | |
Northern Ireland and the other
countries of the EU? I think the | 0:42:36 | 0:42:43 | |
lady's party would be happy with a
hard border. The government... I | 0:42:43 | 0:42:48 | |
don't want her or anyone in the
House to be under any | 0:42:48 | 0:42:53 | |
misapprehension, the government is
absolutely committed to what it | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
agreed in the joint report and we
have ever since the referendum made | 0:42:56 | 0:43:00 | |
it clear that we are not going to
support our hard border on the | 0:43:00 | 0:43:05 | |
island of Ireland. Can my right
honourable friend confirm that trade | 0:43:05 | 0:43:13 | |
between Northern Ireland and Great
Britain is far greater in volume | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
than between Northern Ireland and
the Republic of Ireland, Northern | 0:43:17 | 0:43:22 | |
Ireland and the European Union,
Northern Ireland and indeed the rest | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
of the world? Not only is that true,
but it is also the case that trade | 0:43:25 | 0:43:32 | |
between Ireland and the great
Britain is more important than trade | 0:43:32 | 0:43:41 | |
from south to north, between Ireland
and Northern Ireland. Which | 0:43:41 | 0:43:45 | |
reinforces the point it is the
mutual interests of all parties to | 0:43:45 | 0:43:50 | |
agree on an ambitious economic
partnership for the future. Can the | 0:43:50 | 0:43:56 | |
Minister confirm that cameras
counters infrastructure. Can he | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
point to an example anywhere in the
world of an international border | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
with no customs union and no border
infrastructure, just one example | 0:44:04 | 0:44:08 | |
anywhere? The language of the joint
report is very clear, the associated | 0:44:08 | 0:44:16 | |
physical infrastructure is ruled
out. The success of modern Northern | 0:44:16 | 0:44:25 | |
Ireland can be seen in the fact my
friends whose parents used to dread | 0:44:25 | 0:44:31 | |
the school run can with the kids off
without a second thought. All these | 0:44:31 | 0:44:37 | |
agree that there will be a full
security assessment. There will be a | 0:44:37 | 0:44:42 | |
proper analysis of security will be
undertaken by the appropriate | 0:44:42 | 0:44:48 | |
agencies in any and all
circumstances where that is | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
required. My honourable friend is
right to say that one of the great | 0:44:51 | 0:44:56 | |
achievements of constitutional
politics in Northern Ireland, over | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
the last 25 years, has been to bring
about a measure of peace and | 0:45:00 | 0:45:08 | |
security after decades when people
lived under the threat of terrorism. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:12 | |
And we should welcome and rededicate
ourselves to making sure that | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
process continues. He is forgetting
the reason he is in the chamber this | 0:45:16 | 0:45:23 | |
afternoon is because of the memo the
Foreign Secretary wrote and no other | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
reason. Can you answer the question
and tell us why the Foreign | 0:45:26 | 0:45:32 | |
Secretary wrote the memo to the
Prime Minister? As I said to the | 0:45:32 | 0:45:36 | |
Right honourable gentleman earlier,
in any government, ministers, write | 0:45:36 | 0:45:45 | |
letters and memoranda, have
conversations from time to time. The | 0:45:45 | 0:45:49 | |
policy of government under our
system is the policy that is agreed | 0:45:49 | 0:45:52 | |
collectively by the Cabinet and the
policy of the Cabinet and government | 0:45:52 | 0:45:56 | |
is what I have set out today. Can I
also add... Does he agree that the | 0:45:56 | 0:46:09 | |
evidence given that two -- two tier
system could help to avoid the | 0:46:09 | 0:46:19 | |
physical infrastructure we all want
to avoid? Those where items that | 0:46:19 | 0:46:25 | |
were also mentioned in the
government's position paper that was | 0:46:25 | 0:46:29 | |
published last summer about the
Irish border. And I am not saying | 0:46:29 | 0:46:36 | |
those were necessarily provide a
comparison of solution, but it is | 0:46:36 | 0:46:42 | |
evidence of goodwill in seeking
pragmatic and sizeable ways forward. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:49 | |
It has been deeply irresponsible. I
would like to ask again, the Foreign | 0:46:49 | 0:46:59 | |
Secretary wrote, if a hard border is
introduced. He has been clear about | 0:46:59 | 0:47:06 | |
their foreign -- Cabinet position
was. Ministers, when they have | 0:47:06 | 0:47:12 | |
private correspondent, engage in all
sorts of speculative thinking to | 0:47:12 | 0:47:17 | |
test out ideas before they are
brought for collective discussion | 0:47:17 | 0:47:22 | |
and decision. The government
collectively is accountable to this | 0:47:22 | 0:47:28 | |
House or the policies that the
government has adopted. The | 0:47:28 | 0:47:33 | |
government has ruled out both a hard
border between Northern Ireland and | 0:47:33 | 0:47:38 | |
Ireland, and border in the Irish
Sea. How dare the EU propose a | 0:47:38 | 0:47:49 | |
break-up of the United kingdom into
two trading zones. Both levers and | 0:47:49 | 0:47:57 | |
Remainers are increasingly angered
by this stroppy petulant and | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
unreasonable approach to these
negotiations by the European Union. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:06 | |
Will my honourable friend tell the
EU in these negotiations they have | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
not got off to a good start? I think
that... What we learnt at the end of | 0:48:09 | 0:48:18 | |
2017 was that despite all the
predictions about the imminent | 0:48:18 | 0:48:25 | |
collapse of the negotiating process
at that time, that with political | 0:48:25 | 0:48:30 | |
will, both from London and from 27
partners, and the European | 0:48:30 | 0:48:35 | |
Commission, that an agreement could
be reached. And I think that provide | 0:48:35 | 0:48:39 | |
a very good process -- basis from
which to move forward now. Sir John | 0:48:39 | 0:48:45 | |
Major and Tony Blair warned you in
the EU referendum campaign that this | 0:48:45 | 0:48:49 | |
would be it an issue. What he has
said today in the dispatch box is | 0:48:49 | 0:48:55 | |
simply impossible. We are not
talking about a backbencher or a | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
backbencher Ora Parliamentary
undersecretary. We are talking about | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
the Foreign Secretary who has a
central role in the heart of | 0:49:02 | 0:49:07 | |
negotiations, who is entertaining
the prospect of a hard border that | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
he says that Tasman ruled out. The
only question is, is this the | 0:49:10 | 0:49:16 | |
settled position of the government,
is the Foreign Secretary says he is | 0:49:16 | 0:49:21 | |
going to publish a memo Ireland when
is he going to do it? Is it not the | 0:49:21 | 0:49:26 | |
case that the Foreign Secretary
should have had the guts to come | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
here and answer for themselves and
clean-up up his own mess if he | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
cannot answer for him? The
government was my policy is what I | 0:49:32 | 0:49:36 | |
have set out. What we're doing at
the start of the negotiating process | 0:49:36 | 0:49:41 | |
is to bring forward ideas and
develop those internally in | 0:49:41 | 0:49:44 | |
government about how we would wish
to give practical application to the | 0:49:44 | 0:49:49 | |
commitments we have entered into.
The Prime Minister will see more | 0:49:49 | 0:49:52 | |
about on Friday. The differences in
tax, economic strategy and currency | 0:49:52 | 0:50:00 | |
has proven to be no hindrance to
that free and open land. We give an | 0:50:00 | 0:50:06 | |
absolute declaration that the UK
will not, under any circumstances, | 0:50:06 | 0:50:12 | |
implement and new Northern Ireland
and Republic border. If the EU | 0:50:12 | 0:50:17 | |
requires a new hard border, it is a
matter for them and the republic to | 0:50:17 | 0:50:24 | |
decide and implement. We,
unilaterally if necessary, will | 0:50:24 | 0:50:29 | |
honour the Belfast agreement and
indeed strengthen our union of the | 0:50:29 | 0:50:32 | |
UK. I think... My honourable friend
was right to talk about the | 0:50:32 | 0:50:40 | |
resolution of the United Kingdom
government. In fairness, we do need | 0:50:40 | 0:50:45 | |
to acknowledge that the government
of Ireland, too, is committed to try | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
and make sure that no hard border is
created and the Taoiseach and his | 0:50:49 | 0:50:56 | |
government are committed to working
constructively as part of the EU 27 | 0:50:56 | 0:50:59 | |
with us to find a way forward in
terms of a future economic | 0:50:59 | 0:51:04 | |
partnership. There is a member of
the House that lives closer to the | 0:51:04 | 0:51:11 | |
Northern Ireland border than anyone
else in the chamber. Can I ask this | 0:51:11 | 0:51:15 | |
focus of a hard border, does the
government and all his colleagues in | 0:51:15 | 0:51:20 | |
the government, the Irish government
and the EU negotiators understand | 0:51:20 | 0:51:24 | |
that any top on a principle of a
hard border is irrelevant because it | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
would be totally impossible to
police 310 crossing points and | 0:51:28 | 0:51:35 | |
everyone locally would how to
circumvent them if they tried! | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
Particularly conscious that in
County Londonderry people are | 0:51:38 | 0:51:44 | |
commuting to and from work,
businesses are supplying customers, | 0:51:44 | 0:51:49 | |
people are travelling to and from
the doctors across the international | 0:51:49 | 0:51:55 | |
jurisdictional border. It is very
important in terms of people being | 0:51:55 | 0:51:57 | |
able to go about their everyday
lives that we reach the kind of | 0:51:57 | 0:52:02 | |
agreement to which the government
here and the Irish government are | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
committed. Would he just define for
the House what the government meant | 0:52:05 | 0:52:13 | |
work he said a guaranteed no hard
border, what does that actually | 0:52:13 | 0:52:17 | |
involved? It is exactly what we said
in a commitment to the joint report | 0:52:17 | 0:52:27 | |
in December and in the position
papers that we published back last | 0:52:27 | 0:52:30 | |
summer. Last night in the other
place we had the second reading of | 0:52:30 | 0:52:40 | |
the roads, trailer registration
bill. It is the first piece of | 0:52:40 | 0:52:45 | |
contingency planning. Can he clarify
how the government will make sure no | 0:52:45 | 0:52:51 | |
checks on the registration between
the Republic of Northern Ireland and | 0:52:51 | 0:52:54 | |
Northern Ireland and how this will
be consistent with its current | 0:52:54 | 0:53:00 | |
legislation on holiday? We do
believe that the bill is completely | 0:53:00 | 0:53:04 | |
compliant with our commitments under
the joint report. But I will as the | 0:53:04 | 0:53:08 | |
Transport Secretary to write to them
with detail. The Good Friday | 0:53:08 | 0:53:14 | |
Agreement is an international
multiparty agreement, endorsed by | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
referendums on both sides of the
Irish border. The decision to leave | 0:53:18 | 0:53:22 | |
the customs union and single
market... Does he accept it is the | 0:53:22 | 0:53:29 | |
responsibility of his government to
bring forward detailed workable | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
proposals as to how his government
unilateral headlines can be made | 0:53:33 | 0:53:38 | |
compatible and can he tell is how
much longer we have to wait until we | 0:53:38 | 0:53:42 | |
see those proposals in print? We are
at the start of a process of | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
negotiation. The honourable
gentleman would not want me to go | 0:53:46 | 0:53:55 | |
into entire detail. I hope when he
sees what the Prime Minister says on | 0:53:55 | 0:54:00 | |
Friday and when he has the
opportunity to question her after | 0:54:00 | 0:54:03 | |
her statement last Monday, that he
will feel reassured. Thank you. | 0:54:03 | 0:54:10 | |
Normally points of order come after.
But this relates to these exchanges | 0:54:10 | 0:54:14 | |
so I will take it now. Mr Speaker,
would it be in order for it to be | 0:54:14 | 0:54:20 | |
recorded that you quite rightly
acknowledged a number of hours in | 0:54:20 | 0:54:23 | |
that recent session that we had the
urgent question for speaking too | 0:54:23 | 0:54:28 | |
long. And not asking the short
questions of course some honourable | 0:54:28 | 0:54:33 | |
members are good at. But not all of
us. The reason for that and you will | 0:54:33 | 0:54:38 | |
correct me if I am wrong, is because
we have never add a proper | 0:54:38 | 0:54:42 | |
meaningful debate, or indeed a vote,
on this or any other Brexit matter | 0:54:42 | 0:54:49 | |
that would indeed help the
government in its negotiations and | 0:54:49 | 0:54:55 | |
indeed the uniter country. And this
is just one of many examples, Mr | 0:54:55 | 0:55:01 | |
Speaker, where Parliament's voices
profoundly lacking in the whole of | 0:55:01 | 0:55:04 | |
the Brexit process. There have been
debates in the committee of the | 0:55:04 | 0:55:14 | |
whole House report stage on the
withdrawal bill. But outstayed of | 0:55:14 | 0:55:21 | |
legislation, if memory serves me
correctly, what the right honourable | 0:55:21 | 0:55:27 | |
lady says is factually correct. She
will know that I have an unbridled | 0:55:27 | 0:55:35 | |
enthusiasm for debate, for votes,
and for sitting in the chair for | 0:55:35 | 0:55:43 | |
extended periods, listening to the
intellects of Einstein and the | 0:55:43 | 0:55:53 | |
eloquence of Demosthenes, which are
so regularly on display, from my | 0:55:53 | 0:55:59 | |
colleagues. In all parts of the
House. And I cannot get enough of | 0:55:59 | 0:56:07 | |
it. It may seem eccentric on my
part, but I love listening to my | 0:56:07 | 0:56:14 | |
colleagues. And the more debates,
and the more votes, the better. I am | 0:56:14 | 0:56:22 | |
most grateful to the right
honourable lady on whose point of | 0:56:22 | 0:56:26 | |
order I had only a moment's notice,
but which I enjoyed. If there are no | 0:56:26 | 0:56:34 | |
further points of order at this
stage, we come now to the urgent | 0:56:34 | 0:56:38 | |
question, Stephen Twigg. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:39 | |
Can I ask the Minister of State for
the foreign & Commonwealth Office to | 0:56:44 | 0:56:48 | |
make a statement to the House on the
Burmese government's failure to | 0:56:48 | 0:56:51 | |
issue visas to the members of the
international select committee? May | 0:56:51 | 0:57:01 | |
I thank the honourable gentleman for
local West Derby for his question, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:08 | |
i:e., like him and deeply
disappointed that the government of | 0:57:08 | 0:57:14 | |
Burma have not granted visas. This
displeasure has been communicated to | 0:57:14 | 0:57:19 | |
the Burmese authorities. I accept
that they do vital work providing | 0:57:19 | 0:57:24 | |
important oversight of UK aid
programme in Burma and beyond. The | 0:57:24 | 0:57:33 | |
aid committee was due to travel on
the 27th and 20th of February, when | 0:57:33 | 0:57:41 | |
no decision on visas was received in
the early morning of yesterday, it's | 0:57:41 | 0:57:49 | |
then cancelled the Burma leg of its
visit. I understand they will | 0:57:49 | 0:57:54 | |
continue at the second part of that
trip, travelling to Bangladesh, | 0:57:54 | 0:57:59 | |
supporting the Rohingya refugees
replace in those facilities. Burmese | 0:57:59 | 0:58:11 | |
officials have indicated three
reasons for the refusal. First, | 0:58:11 | 0:58:14 | |
there is an extended public holiday
in Burma. Secondly, access to rack | 0:58:14 | 0:58:23 | |
kind state is restricted for
security reasons. And finally, they | 0:58:23 | 0:58:30 | |
were unhappy that individual members
had signed a letter calling for the | 0:58:30 | 0:58:38 | |
senior general of the Burmese army
being called to account for the | 0:58:38 | 0:58:42 | |
military's behaviour. It is right, I
think, Mr Speaker, that this House | 0:58:42 | 0:58:49 | |
takes a close interest in this sort
of crisis and I know all members | 0:58:49 | 0:58:52 | |
here will continue to do so. The
government fully supports the work | 0:58:52 | 0:58:57 | |
of the committee. A conference about
in a tree was developed but the | 0:58:57 | 0:59:09 | |
British ambassador in the country
pressed repeatedly for visas to be | 0:59:09 | 0:59:15 | |
approved both in Burma and in the
Burmese embassy in London. I myself | 0:59:15 | 0:59:19 | |
spoke yesterday morning over the
telephone with the Burmese | 0:59:19 | 0:59:22 | |
ambassador to raise the status of
visas demonstrating just how | 0:59:22 | 0:59:26 | |
seriously the FCO takes this matter,
not least, as a courtesy to the | 0:59:26 | 0:59:31 | |
House. I understand you also read to
the Burmese ambassador, Mr Speaker, | 0:59:31 | 0:59:36 | |
and he intends to reply formally
setting out the reasons for the | 0:59:36 | 0:59:39 | |
refusal. Through DFID, ... The first
chance of UK funding is providing | 0:59:39 | 0:59:53 | |
emergency food and safe water and
hygiene for more than 180 thousand | 0:59:53 | 0:59:59 | |
people. The UK's emergency medical
team was deployed to save lives. | 0:59:59 | 1:00:06 | |
This decision to deny visas is
highly regrettable and will prevent | 1:00:06 | 1:00:10 | |
the committee from seeing some of
its work first hand. However, this | 1:00:10 | 1:00:15 | |
government must and will remain
committed to supporting Burma's | 1:00:15 | 1:00:19 | |
poorest and most vulnerable people.
Working with DFID, we will ensure | 1:00:19 | 1:00:25 | |
the committee has all the access
needed. In democracies, | 1:00:25 | 1:00:37 | |
parliamentarians to criticise
governments. This is a lesson that | 1:00:37 | 1:00:40 | |
the Burmese government will have to
learn. Thank you for granting this | 1:00:40 | 1:00:47 | |
urgent question. Can I thank the
Minister for his response. First of | 1:00:47 | 1:00:53 | |
all, I would like on behalf of the
entire committee to thank all of | 1:00:53 | 1:00:56 | |
those who have worked incredibly
hard over the last few days to try | 1:00:56 | 1:01:00 | |
and sort this matter out, including
you, Mr Speaker, as the Minister | 1:01:00 | 1:01:05 | |
rightly pointed out, you wrote
personally to the Burmese ambassador | 1:01:05 | 1:01:08 | |
in London. The Minister himself for
his intervention of which I'm very | 1:01:08 | 1:01:13 | |
grateful. And the team in Burma
particularly, the British | 1:01:13 | 1:01:20 | |
ambassador. Sadly, it was all to no
avail. The committee should write | 1:01:20 | 1:01:23 | |
now be on its way to Burma where we
were planning to look at some of the | 1:01:23 | 1:01:27 | |
fantastic work that DFID funds in
that country. We were told last week | 1:01:27 | 1:01:33 | |
that our visas had been approved
here in the United Kingdom, they had | 1:01:33 | 1:01:38 | |
been processed and they were ready
but the Burmese embassy in London | 1:01:38 | 1:01:42 | |
was awaiting final approval from
their government. Yesterday, our | 1:01:42 | 1:01:46 | |
passports were returned to us
without visas and clearly the | 1:01:46 | 1:01:49 | |
failure of the Burmese government to
grant these visas simply prevents us | 1:01:49 | 1:01:55 | |
from doing our job as a select
committee which is to oversee how | 1:01:55 | 1:02:00 | |
overseas developer and assistant is
spent in countries. I have no doubt | 1:02:00 | 1:02:05 | |
that a major part of the reason this
has happened is direct retaliation | 1:02:05 | 1:02:10 | |
for the report that we published
last month on the Rohingya crisis. I | 1:02:10 | 1:02:14 | |
believe there is a direct connection
between our report and these | 1:02:14 | 1:02:19 | |
actions. I thank the Minister for
shedding some light today in his | 1:02:19 | 1:02:23 | |
response to this urgent question
about the reasons that the Burmese | 1:02:23 | 1:02:27 | |
have now given for denying our
visas. I understand, Mr Speaker, | 1:02:27 | 1:02:31 | |
that it was Aung San Suu Kyi herself
who blocked the approval of our | 1:02:31 | 1:02:36 | |
visas. Some will argue and some have
argued this overnight on social | 1:02:36 | 1:02:43 | |
media that as a result of this we
should stop United Kingdom aid to | 1:02:43 | 1:02:47 | |
Burma. I agree with the Minister
that it would be a major mistake to | 1:02:47 | 1:02:51 | |
stop supporting programmes that help
the poorest, health programmes, | 1:02:51 | 1:02:55 | |
education programmes that make a
difference to the very poorest | 1:02:55 | 1:02:58 | |
people. We should not punish them.
However, with the Minister agree | 1:02:58 | 1:03:03 | |
with me that it is now the time for
us as a parliament and for the | 1:03:03 | 1:03:07 | |
government to review the programme
for Democratic change which is | 1:03:07 | 1:03:13 | |
working with the Burnley 's
parliament's? If we as | 1:03:13 | 1:03:17 | |
parliamentarians are not permitted
to go to that country and meet their | 1:03:17 | 1:03:22 | |
political leaders and look at how UK
aid is being sent whether it is | 1:03:22 | 1:03:25 | |
right that our taxpayers resourced
as is being spent on Parliamentary | 1:03:25 | 1:03:31 | |
strengthening in Burma. -- Bernie 's
parliament. Finally, I believe this | 1:03:31 | 1:03:43 | |
is to silence the treatment of the
Burmese government of the Rohingya. | 1:03:43 | 1:03:49 | |
Does he agree that we must double
our efforts on behalf of the | 1:03:49 | 1:03:53 | |
Rohingya people so they get the
justice they deserve? I thank the | 1:03:53 | 1:03:59 | |
honourable gentleman for his
thoughtful contribution as ever. And | 1:03:59 | 1:04:02 | |
thank you for the kind words about
the intervention of the Foreign | 1:04:02 | 1:04:05 | |
Office. I think it is direct
retaliation, I accept that. I would | 1:04:05 | 1:04:11 | |
not like to speculate whether there
has been a personal interception by | 1:04:11 | 1:04:14 | |
Aung San Suu Kyi but we may learn
more in the days to come and we will | 1:04:14 | 1:04:18 | |
discuss matters then. May I say that
I agree with much of what he has to | 1:04:18 | 1:04:22 | |
say and please rest assured that
particularly my right honourable | 1:04:22 | 1:04:26 | |
friend the Secretary of State for
DFID is working very closely to try | 1:04:26 | 1:04:33 | |
and reorganise programmes that we
have in Burma to take into account | 1:04:33 | 1:04:36 | |
many of the concerns that he has but
above all that we want to keep the | 1:04:36 | 1:04:41 | |
interest of the most vulnerable
closely in our minds. As I mentioned | 1:04:41 | 1:04:46 | |
earlier on, we are one of the
biggest single donors in this | 1:04:46 | 1:04:48 | |
terrible crisis. We have provided
money to both the Red Cross and the | 1:04:48 | 1:04:54 | |
world food programme to provide
assistance in the Burmese side of | 1:04:54 | 1:04:59 | |
the border. To be honest, given the
very severe humanitarian impact that | 1:04:59 | 1:05:06 | |
heavy rain and cyclones could have
on the population, we are heading | 1:05:06 | 1:05:11 | |
into the cyclone season in the next
month, this is something we will | 1:05:11 | 1:05:14 | |
keep under very open review. I would
also say, if I may, Mr Speaker, I | 1:05:14 | 1:05:20 | |
was in Brussels deputising for the
Foreign Secretary on Monday and we | 1:05:20 | 1:05:23 | |
agreed at that point with the EU
Council that the conclusions | 1:05:23 | 1:05:30 | |
initiating an work Sue introduced
targeted sanctions on elements of | 1:05:30 | 1:05:35 | |
the Burmese military. This work is
ongoing. You will appreciate some | 1:05:35 | 1:05:42 | |
difficulties we face, not least
because of the potential veto of | 1:05:42 | 1:05:47 | |
some of the permanent members of the
Security Council but we are doing a | 1:05:47 | 1:05:51 | |
lot at the EU level as well. Having
seen what is going on in Burma, it | 1:05:51 | 1:06:03 | |
is imperative that we continue to
assist the Rohingya people in their | 1:06:03 | 1:06:06 | |
hour of need. I would urge the
Minister to summon the Burnley 's | 1:06:06 | 1:06:15 | |
ambassador -- their ambassador for
Burma to spell out formally. Mr | 1:06:15 | 1:06:23 | |
Speaker, for those of us that
followed events in that country for | 1:06:23 | 1:06:26 | |
some time now, our policy was to
support Aung San Suu Kyi where we | 1:06:26 | 1:06:31 | |
could and were told that the
problems were with the military. If | 1:06:31 | 1:06:34 | |
it is now the case that she is no
longer part of the solution but is | 1:06:34 | 1:06:39 | |
indeed in some way part of the
problem, I do believe this is a time | 1:06:39 | 1:06:44 | |
to reassess our relationship with
the parliament, with the army in | 1:06:44 | 1:06:52 | |
Burma and the training and
assistance we have tried to give | 1:06:52 | 1:06:55 | |
them to make them a more democratic
military and indeed the range of | 1:06:55 | 1:07:02 | |
bilateral relations where fibre that
country. We simply cannot allow them | 1:07:02 | 1:07:06 | |
to away with this kind of behaviour.
I thank my right honourable friend | 1:07:06 | 1:07:10 | |
and obviously he was the predecessor
in the role that I now hold. And | 1:07:10 | 1:07:15 | |
must, very depressing given the high
hopes he had when he was in office. | 1:07:15 | 1:07:24 | |
I gather given the number of visits
he made to Burma at that time that | 1:07:24 | 1:07:28 | |
we were moving toward some sort of
democracy. In many ways, there are | 1:07:28 | 1:07:32 | |
some lessons we have learned is
perhaps in that time, as a small | 1:07:32 | 1:07:39 | |
amount of democracy, the Rohingya
will not included in the census, not | 1:07:39 | 1:07:43 | |
allowed to vote in elections, in
many ways we are seeing elements of | 1:07:43 | 1:07:47 | |
the consequences of that. Major say
in relation to his initial point | 1:07:47 | 1:07:54 | |
about the Burmese ambassador, we
will of course summon him over the | 1:07:54 | 1:07:59 | |
course of the next week to express
our deep displeasure at his | 1:07:59 | 1:08:03 | |
government's actions. The refusal of
visas for the international | 1:08:03 | 1:08:16 | |
development committee by the Myanmar
government is obvious the shocking. | 1:08:16 | 1:08:18 | |
It seems to be a response to their
critical report on the treatment of | 1:08:18 | 1:08:29 | |
the Rohingya. It might be on the
tightening of a use sanctions as the | 1:08:29 | 1:08:33 | |
Minister mentions. Banning people is
their stock response to criticism. | 1:08:33 | 1:08:37 | |
They have also banned the UN
fact-finding mission, the special | 1:08:37 | 1:08:41 | |
rapporteur, the UN refugee agency.
The UK has a £100 million aid | 1:08:41 | 1:08:50 | |
programme and significant
development investments. We have our | 1:08:50 | 1:08:53 | |
own Parliamentary strengthening
programme. It is completely | 1:08:53 | 1:08:55 | |
reasonable for the international
double in committee to visit Myanmar | 1:08:55 | 1:08:59 | |
and see how these are going. I think
the chair is right to say we need to | 1:08:59 | 1:09:04 | |
think again about the Parliamentary
strengthening programme but what I | 1:09:04 | 1:09:08 | |
would like to ask the Minister is
what is the Foreign Office going to | 1:09:08 | 1:09:11 | |
do to secure access both for British
parliamentarians and for the United | 1:09:11 | 1:09:18 | |
Nations agencies? The Right
Honourable lady will appreciate that | 1:09:18 | 1:09:27 | |
these are very difficult issues. We
are doing our best to work both | 1:09:27 | 1:09:32 | |
bilateral and then the international
community to try to secure that sort | 1:09:32 | 1:09:36 | |
of access. We are also working
quietly behind-the-scenes. There are | 1:09:36 | 1:09:42 | |
individuals known to Aung San Suu
Kyi over many years who have paid | 1:09:42 | 1:09:48 | |
visits and at least advise her at
the displeasure and concerns of the | 1:09:48 | 1:09:53 | |
international community. And the
reality is that the truth really is | 1:09:53 | 1:09:59 | |
that the military do have a whip
hand to very large extent on what is | 1:09:59 | 1:10:06 | |
going on in Burma. We will continue
to work tirelessly to and ensure | 1:10:06 | 1:10:11 | |
that we move forward. We want to see
some accountability for the crimes | 1:10:11 | 1:10:16 | |
that have been committed and I hope
that at some point when the UN | 1:10:16 | 1:10:21 | |
fact-finding mission can enter a
report that we will have a statement | 1:10:21 | 1:10:26 | |
in the House setting out our
position about the issue of impunity | 1:10:26 | 1:10:29 | |
for the future. | 1:10:29 | 1:10:33 | |
It is my strong belief that going
back to my initial point and the | 1:10:33 | 1:10:36 | |
point made by a the honourable
gentleman from Liverpool West Derby | 1:10:36 | 1:10:40 | |
we always have to remember that
frustrating though it is and she | 1:10:40 | 1:10:45 | |
rightly points out we have spent 100
win pounds a year on aid within | 1:10:45 | 1:10:52 | |
Burma, that actually the work being
done for the most vulnerable must | 1:10:52 | 1:10:56 | |
continue. It is very easy for us to
walk away. We want to be honest and | 1:10:56 | 1:11:01 | |
try and find within the military in
so far is that I'm more moderate | 1:11:01 | 1:11:05 | |
elements we can begin to work with
and that is why we have stock | 1:11:05 | 1:11:10 | |
programmes of training for the
military but we feel there are | 1:11:10 | 1:11:13 | |
individuals there who we should try
to keep lines of communication open | 1:11:13 | 1:11:17 | |
with and we will continue to do
that. This is one of the | 1:11:17 | 1:11:20 | |
frustrations in many ways of
democracy and diplomacy but we will | 1:11:20 | 1:11:23 | |
continue patiently but with some
urgency for the reasons I have said | 1:11:23 | 1:11:28 | |
that given the humanitarian
catastrophe taking place on the | 1:11:28 | 1:11:31 | |
Bangladeshi side of the border to
continue that. Mr Speaker, your own | 1:11:31 | 1:11:38 | |
role was instrumental in setting up
the Parliamentary strengthening | 1:11:38 | 1:11:41 | |
programme. The purpose of which is
to make their parliament more like | 1:11:41 | 1:11:46 | |
ours. Therefore it would be folly to
stop it no matter how insulted we | 1:11:46 | 1:11:51 | |
properly feel. I do share the right
honourable gentleman's concerns on | 1:11:51 | 1:12:01 | |
this and I in a previous ballad I
was on the business foundation for | 1:12:01 | 1:12:05 | |
democracy I played a role in trying
to work together and have integrated | 1:12:05 | 1:12:08 | |
programmes and they think I'm a
cross-party basis we would not I | 1:12:08 | 1:12:10 | |
think to begin desert in the biggest
hour of need some elements within | 1:12:10 | 1:12:18 | |
Burma reveal strongly about this
matter but equally Aphibarnrat | 1:12:18 | 1:12:22 | |
honourable friend will recognise
that there is a deep concern that we | 1:12:22 | 1:12:29 | |
cannot continue as though it is
business as usual in all our | 1:12:29 | 1:12:32 | |
relations with the Burmese
authorities but they very much hope | 1:12:32 | 1:12:35 | |
there will be some individuals who
will be able to work with to make | 1:12:35 | 1:12:38 | |
that country a better and more
democratic place in the years to | 1:12:38 | 1:12:40 | |
come. It goes without saying how
deeply disappointed I am to be in | 1:12:40 | 1:12:49 | |
this chamber along with my
International Development Committee | 1:12:49 | 1:12:51 | |
colleagues when I am supposed to be
on a plant like to Burma to see the | 1:12:51 | 1:12:55 | |
good work that they are doing in
areas also bitter disappointment | 1:12:55 | 1:13:00 | |
that I find out just now that Aung
San Suu Kyi is personally | 1:13:00 | 1:13:03 | |
responsible for blocking the visas
to give the essential work that we | 1:13:03 | 1:13:07 | |
are providing to her citizens in her
nation who are of the poorest and | 1:13:07 | 1:13:14 | |
most fundable. Difficult as a
substantial aid programme in Burma | 1:13:14 | 1:13:17 | |
and our job is to go out there to
see the good work being done and I | 1:13:17 | 1:13:20 | |
would want to put on record as the
member of Parliament for Dundee city | 1:13:20 | 1:13:27 | |
currently considering whether or not
to withdraw the freedom of the city, | 1:13:27 | 1:13:30 | |
with heavy heart I feel I will be
recommending that withdrawal of the | 1:13:30 | 1:13:34 | |
freedom after hearing what I have
heard today. Can the secretary tell | 1:13:34 | 1:13:37 | |
me that what assurances he would
give or indeed the Minister, what | 1:13:37 | 1:13:40 | |
assurances can be given for future
visits to Burma to see the essential | 1:13:40 | 1:13:44 | |
work being carried out in the
regions which include Bracken state | 1:13:44 | 1:13:50 | |
and can he give us an opportunity to
give a further explanation given the | 1:13:50 | 1:14:00 | |
fact we are a democracy here and
support democracy in Burma in | 1:14:00 | 1:14:04 | |
particular Aung San Suu Kyi and
widely very remarks, I sang that and | 1:14:04 | 1:14:08 | |
I endorse anyone else to sign up
later, if there are war crimes and | 1:14:08 | 1:14:15 | |
mass atrocities being carried out in
Rakhine state, I hope Aung San Suu | 1:14:15 | 1:14:22 | |
Kyi is listening to this message
today because she should also be | 1:14:22 | 1:14:27 | |
speaking out. I would like to hear
there will be further explanation | 1:14:27 | 1:14:30 | |
and if there has been anything we
have lost in this Parliament, is | 1:14:30 | 1:14:36 | |
asked to be rebranded and lastly to
have an apology from the Burmese | 1:14:36 | 1:14:39 | |
authorities. May I think the
honourable judgment but Andy West we | 1:14:39 | 1:14:45 | |
were able to speak before the
disappointment became apparent the | 1:14:45 | 1:14:49 | |
refusal was in place and I wish him
and the rest of the Committee all | 1:14:49 | 1:14:53 | |
the rest and be able to see is much
as they can in Bangladesh, but I | 1:14:53 | 1:14:56 | |
think it is depressing and it would
be more worthwhile to be able to go | 1:14:56 | 1:15:00 | |
into Rakhine State to sit where I
know is whether intended to be. I | 1:15:00 | 1:15:05 | |
don't want to spend the time, to
defend Aung San Suu Kyi but we have | 1:15:05 | 1:15:14 | |
a bilateral relationship and we want
to try to keep lines of medication | 1:15:14 | 1:15:17 | |
open. The recognition has to be to
the Burmese military who have been | 1:15:17 | 1:15:21 | |
responsible for many of the
atrocities that have taken place in | 1:15:21 | 1:15:24 | |
the aftermath of the 20th of August
and I think we should not forget | 1:15:24 | 1:15:29 | |
that amidst great disappointment
that was shared by many members of | 1:15:29 | 1:15:31 | |
Parliament given the great high
hopes they had with the new regime | 1:15:31 | 1:15:35 | |
when it came into play only a couple
of years ago. That we just say this | 1:15:35 | 1:15:40 | |
about issues of accountability. The
immediate task I think will be to | 1:15:40 | 1:15:43 | |
support those who are building
evidence and testimony. The task of | 1:15:43 | 1:15:47 | |
been ongoing over the past six
months. A number of organisations | 1:15:47 | 1:15:51 | |
will be left collecting that
testimony and we will be considering | 1:15:51 | 1:15:56 | |
how best we can support that range
non-governmental organisations. If | 1:15:56 | 1:16:01 | |
it is Burma is not a party to the
statute of the International | 1:16:01 | 1:16:05 | |
criminal Court, Cosmo see PIC will
not have jurisdiction, or it would | 1:16:05 | 1:16:09 | |
only have jurisdiction over the
alleged crime if Burma was to revert | 1:16:09 | 1:16:13 | |
to accord, an unlikely scenario, or
there was a referral to the UN | 1:16:13 | 1:16:18 | |
Security Council which I think is
unlikely. So we are working and hope | 1:16:18 | 1:16:24 | |
to come back to the hazard some
point before too long and working to | 1:16:24 | 1:16:27 | |
a strategy of how impunity can be
and account ability, can be put to | 1:16:27 | 1:16:34 | |
those to some who have committed
some of these terrible crimes. As a | 1:16:34 | 1:16:40 | |
member of the Committee I'm a bit
disappointed we are not going. | 1:16:40 | 1:16:43 | |
Mainly because we were trying to see
both sides, but the Burmese side and | 1:16:43 | 1:16:51 | |
the Bangladeshi side, to see how
these terrible -- terribly burnable | 1:16:51 | 1:16:56 | |
people are being treated on either
side and I think the Bangladesh side | 1:16:56 | 1:16:59 | |
were doing a magnificent job --
terribly vulnerable people. We | 1:16:59 | 1:17:08 | |
recognise it was a Bank Holiday, it
was quite dangerous to go up there | 1:17:08 | 1:17:13 | |
but we were prepared if we could
possibly go to go and now we have | 1:17:13 | 1:17:17 | |
been thwarted and I do think, I
don't know whether there was truth | 1:17:17 | 1:17:22 | |
in the fact that Aung San Suu Kyi
did have a hand in it, but I hope | 1:17:22 | 1:17:27 | |
the Minister will ask and find out
and report back to this House | 1:17:27 | 1:17:31 | |
because I think that this incredibly
serious because someone who has her | 1:17:31 | 1:17:37 | |
before, as many millions of people
in this country have, the shine will | 1:17:37 | 1:17:43 | |
definitely have gone off her halo if
that is the case. I think I | 1:17:43 | 1:17:51 | |
honourable than for what she says we
will do our level best to try to get | 1:17:51 | 1:17:54 | |
the bottom of exactly what has
happened and who is responsible. | 1:17:54 | 1:17:58 | |
That media say this. I know it is
often felt when parliamentarians | 1:17:58 | 1:18:02 | |
visit other countries that they all
get teased by our constituents that | 1:18:02 | 1:18:07 | |
say this is all one big jolly that
we are heading off, I had to sit on | 1:18:07 | 1:18:15 | |
my own part as many know I was
speaking in these notes tragically | 1:18:15 | 1:18:22 | |
in September, it has made a
difference to my understanding to | 1:18:22 | 1:18:25 | |
the situation and the two sides have
happened, and my opportunity to go | 1:18:25 | 1:18:33 | |
visit Bangladesh and I think it is
invaluable work that is done and | 1:18:33 | 1:18:38 | |
gives a real sense of perspective
and certainly a Committee such as | 1:18:38 | 1:18:41 | |
this rightly is holding a government
department to account and needs to | 1:18:41 | 1:18:47 | |
be able to see on the grounds the
work that is being done. May I also | 1:18:47 | 1:18:51 | |
take some tribute, not perhaps for
me to pay tribute, hopefully the | 1:18:51 | 1:18:57 | |
Committee, for my right honourable
friend the Secretary of State, I | 1:18:57 | 1:19:01 | |
think she has expended huge amount
of time and energy and passion on | 1:19:01 | 1:19:05 | |
this particular issue. They think
she is very much on top of the issue | 1:19:05 | 1:19:09 | |
to recognise that we have to have
some fundamental changes in the way | 1:19:09 | 1:19:12 | |
in which we look at programmes
particularly within Burma and I know | 1:19:12 | 1:19:16 | |
that we are much respected across
the globe for the tremendous | 1:19:16 | 1:19:19 | |
contribution we have made since the
row up prices came to pass. -- | 1:19:19 | 1:19:25 | |
Rohingya crisis. This is hugely
disappointing for the Select | 1:19:25 | 1:19:31 | |
Committee and shocking if it is true
what the honourable member the | 1:19:31 | 1:19:34 | |
Liverpool West Derby said that Aung
San Suu Kyi may have been | 1:19:34 | 1:19:38 | |
responsible for blocking the betas
although it will not dampen the | 1:19:38 | 1:19:42 | |
effort and determination to the
Committee to keep the pressure on. | 1:19:42 | 1:19:45 | |
Is it a clear signal that the
diplomatic relationship is breaking | 1:19:45 | 1:19:47 | |
down which is frankly understandable
and in some way even reassuring | 1:19:47 | 1:19:52 | |
because a regime that commit ethnic
cleansing is no ally of hours. The | 1:19:52 | 1:19:55 | |
Minister is absolutely right that we
must continue to help support the | 1:19:55 | 1:20:02 | |
most vulnerable people in May on my
particular the Rohingya but can I | 1:20:02 | 1:20:06 | |
press him for accountability for
those in the military, a discussion | 1:20:06 | 1:20:15 | |
with the security Council for the
possibility to refer those who both | 1:20:15 | 1:20:20 | |
for the responsibilities --
atrocities to the criminal court. | 1:20:20 | 1:20:26 | |
The UK continues to work to maintain
the UN Security Council's focus on | 1:20:26 | 1:20:33 | |
Rakhine State and she will be very
aware that in recent weeks, the | 1:20:33 | 1:20:36 | |
Syrian issue has been very important
and clearly last autumn a lot of | 1:20:36 | 1:20:40 | |
focus on what was happening on the
Korean Pincher but that is not to | 1:20:40 | 1:20:44 | |
say we aren't persistent to try and
get this as high-profile as possible | 1:20:44 | 1:20:50 | |
and our own request the Security
Council held Google briefing on the | 1:20:50 | 1:20:53 | |
13th of to focus on the very
specific issue of returns and the | 1:20:53 | 1:20:58 | |
likelihood of returned happening.
The UN security council statement, | 1:20:58 | 1:21:05 | |
first decade, last year, the UK was
that and focusing attention on what | 1:21:05 | 1:21:14 | |
is happening in Burma. We are
providing a response to the | 1:21:14 | 1:21:18 | |
fact-finding report of the human
rights Council which is due in March | 1:21:18 | 1:21:21 | |
and be co-sponsored the UN human
rights Council General Assembly | 1:21:21 | 1:21:26 | |
resolutions. I have to say to the
honourable lady however that the | 1:21:26 | 1:21:31 | |
notion that we have a headlong rush
to a UN Security Council resolution, | 1:21:31 | 1:21:35 | |
the feeling on the ground from
representatives is that almost | 1:21:35 | 1:21:38 | |
certainly would be vetoed by the
Chinese and probably by the Russians | 1:21:38 | 1:21:42 | |
as well. That is not to say that at
some point we might not test that | 1:21:42 | 1:21:47 | |
further but I believe there are
other avenues that we wish to pursue | 1:21:47 | 1:21:50 | |
and one of the reasons that I have
been so pleased to be able to work | 1:21:50 | 1:21:54 | |
together with our colleagues in the
European Union is that actually to | 1:21:54 | 1:21:57 | |
get sanctions from that quarter as I
think will make some progress | 1:21:57 | 1:22:03 | |
particularly against leading lights
within the military. I am | 1:22:03 | 1:22:10 | |
pro-pleased that the Minister is in
his place because his work on the | 1:22:10 | 1:22:14 | |
question of Burma has been
impressive over these many months | 1:22:14 | 1:22:17 | |
and the work of the Ambassador
country and has been impressive and | 1:22:17 | 1:22:22 | |
none of this, I am sure he couldn't
have done more. This is a very | 1:22:22 | 1:22:27 | |
distressing scene. I have however
torn between the desire to ensure we | 1:22:27 | 1:22:34 | |
have oversight of the enormous on
the money we're spending and that we | 1:22:34 | 1:22:37 | |
promote cause of democracy and here
I speak with an interest because one | 1:22:37 | 1:22:42 | |
of the clerks who has been to make
the door is the second clerk of the | 1:22:42 | 1:22:48 | |
Foreign Affairs Committee and the
clerk who is going... If they have | 1:22:48 | 1:22:54 | |
learnt 1% of the knowledge that
these two fabulous individuals can | 1:22:54 | 1:22:58 | |
impart it would be a huge blessing
to the Burmese people and a great | 1:22:58 | 1:23:03 | |
blessing to do a Sinjar between the
United Kingdom and Burma. I thank | 1:23:03 | 1:23:08 | |
him for his insights and I will pass
the message on. It is worth pointing | 1:23:08 | 1:23:16 | |
out a little bit about the bilateral
action that continues to take place. | 1:23:16 | 1:23:20 | |
Many members will be aware the
Foreign Secretary was in Burma | 1:23:20 | 1:23:22 | |
during the most recent recess and
that Aung San Suu Kyi then stressing | 1:23:22 | 1:23:27 | |
refugees must feel to returning home
and need to be supervised at the | 1:23:27 | 1:23:32 | |
UNHCR. Aung San Suu Kyi was spoken
to no fewer than five times since | 1:23:32 | 1:23:38 | |
the crisis began last August. I met
her last September and the Defence | 1:23:38 | 1:23:42 | |
Minister and Deputy First Minister
-- deputy Foreign Minister, in | 1:23:42 | 1:23:47 | |
Ecuador in November. I will, that
work will continue to bring as many | 1:23:47 | 1:23:55 | |
options as possible to be able to
discuss as far as we can but there | 1:23:55 | 1:23:59 | |
is some fantastic expertise that we
need to try to channel into and keep | 1:23:59 | 1:24:03 | |
the pressure on as far as possible.
The United Nations High Commissioner | 1:24:03 | 1:24:12 | |
for human rights has described what
has been happening to the Rohingya | 1:24:12 | 1:24:15 | |
as a textbook case of ethnic
cleansing. Isn't the withholding of | 1:24:15 | 1:24:20 | |
visas from myself and other members
of the International Development | 1:24:20 | 1:24:22 | |
Committee a textbook case and with
an authoritarian regime with | 1:24:22 | 1:24:27 | |
something to hide trying to shield
itself from legitimate international | 1:24:27 | 1:24:31 | |
scrutiny. And if Aung San Suu Kyi is
indeed responsible for that, that it | 1:24:31 | 1:24:37 | |
is nothing short of disgraceful.
With the Minister agree with me that | 1:24:37 | 1:24:42 | |
all this points to the fact that the
international community has to be | 1:24:42 | 1:24:45 | |
far more assertive in rising for
unimpeded humanitarian access to | 1:24:45 | 1:24:51 | |
Rakhine State? I would agree with
that. I don't want to cast judgment | 1:24:51 | 1:24:58 | |
until we know the facts about any
involvement of Aung San Suu Kyi or | 1:24:58 | 1:25:03 | |
other senior members in relation to
the future but I think he is right | 1:25:03 | 1:25:06 | |
that this is something that is a
textbook case of the worst elements | 1:25:06 | 1:25:11 | |
of an increasingly close regime but
I would repeat to him as I have said | 1:25:11 | 1:25:16 | |
at the outset, in the midst of our
displeasure, anger, frustration at | 1:25:16 | 1:25:23 | |
not being able to visit there,
please remember the interests of | 1:25:23 | 1:25:27 | |
those millions in Burma and so
desperately need our help and | 1:25:27 | 1:25:31 | |
support. | 1:25:31 | 1:25:42 | |
Thank you for your letter, which was
well received. When she was here, | 1:25:42 | 1:25:50 | |
she said when she saw us discussing
it, they were moving towards | 1:25:50 | 1:25:56 | |
democracy, but unfortunately the
country is heading in the wrong | 1:25:56 | 1:25:58 | |
direction. Since I saw you cheered
the parliamentary group in 2005, I | 1:25:58 | 1:26:05 | |
always wanted to help move
democracy, and that is what I intend | 1:26:05 | 1:26:10 | |
to do as the coach here. --
co-chair. We will also look at the | 1:26:10 | 1:26:26 | |
health for all of the ethnic groups.
Does the Minister agree with me that | 1:26:26 | 1:26:31 | |
now the International development
committee is going to be carrying on | 1:26:31 | 1:26:35 | |
its work, it will only be speaking
to people which gives a one-sided | 1:26:35 | 1:26:42 | |
view that the Bernd government could
take some time to reply, but makes | 1:26:42 | 1:26:49 | |
the work harder for those of us who
want to take a holistic view of | 1:26:49 | 1:26:53 | |
Burma as a country. -- a one-sided
view that the Burmese man government | 1:26:53 | 1:26:58 | |
could take. I do not know where he
gets the time to do all of this | 1:26:58 | 1:27:05 | |
work. Joking aside, please may I say
this, I agree with everything he has | 1:27:05 | 1:27:15 | |
to say, and we need to look at all
sides to see what extent there is | 1:27:15 | 1:27:19 | |
efficacy in being able to return to
Burma at the earliest opportunity. | 1:27:19 | 1:27:24 | |
Please keep the faith with Burma and
by means. However, -- the Burmese | 1:27:24 | 1:27:35 | |
man. Remember this is important work
being done, and we have a lot of | 1:27:35 | 1:27:49 | |
commitment going to historic
reasons, but keep the faith. I am | 1:27:49 | 1:27:55 | |
disappointed as one of the committee
members refused if these are. I am | 1:27:55 | 1:28:00 | |
also disappointed as a member of
Parliament that represents a city | 1:28:00 | 1:28:03 | |
that gave Aung San Suu Kyi not only
the freedom of the | 1:28:03 | 1:28:24 | |
city, but... Will the government
look at convening an emergency | 1:28:28 | 1:28:37 | |
summit to put sanctions in place not
only against Burma, but possibly | 1:28:37 | 1:28:41 | |
even considering Aung San Suu Kyi's
family assets here in the UK. We | 1:28:41 | 1:28:50 | |
will also immediately review some of
our other aid products including the | 1:28:50 | 1:28:54 | |
£500 million we have given to a
university on a project with Oxford | 1:28:54 | 1:28:59 | |
University last month to make sure
that money is not being used for | 1:28:59 | 1:29:06 | |
academic work which undermines the
Rohingya. He is right to identify | 1:29:06 | 1:29:25 | |
the fact that the issue around the
Rohingya, terrible how it is, is on | 1:29:25 | 1:29:30 | |
a different scale than other
minorities, which have suffered for | 1:29:30 | 1:29:35 | |
many decades. I think I have covered
some of the issues about why we have | 1:29:35 | 1:29:40 | |
not gone for the UN Security Council
resolution at this stage, and I hope | 1:29:40 | 1:29:46 | |
whatever investment is being made
between Rangoon and Oxford is being | 1:29:46 | 1:29:53 | |
done for positive reasons and we
should not necessarily except, but | 1:29:53 | 1:29:59 | |
need to get to the bottom of it. I
was very depressed to learn last | 1:29:59 | 1:30:03 | |
night that the visas had not come
through. I do not know what the | 1:30:03 | 1:30:08 | |
Hermes authority think we're going
to do now, give up and shrug our | 1:30:08 | 1:30:12 | |
shoulders? -- Burmese authority.
We're not going to do that, we are | 1:30:12 | 1:30:22 | |
democratically elected select
committee. Within our parliament we | 1:30:22 | 1:30:25 | |
do not have a quarter for the
military, everyone is elected in the | 1:30:25 | 1:30:29 | |
same matter. -- Manor. It is
important to stress the money we | 1:30:29 | 1:30:35 | |
give is the for the people and it
does go to the military regime and | 1:30:35 | 1:30:39 | |
it doesn't go through the military
regime. The reason it is so month is | 1:30:39 | 1:30:43 | |
the -- the reason it is so much is
because of the militaries team. And | 1:30:43 | 1:30:48 | |
I thank you, Mr Speaker, for
everything you have done. You were | 1:30:48 | 1:30:51 | |
one of the champions of Aung San Suu
Kyi to get her freed from House | 1:30:51 | 1:30:57 | |
arrest, and it was through you that
you are able to get her to address | 1:30:57 | 1:31:00 | |
both Houses of Parliament in
Westminster Hall, a unique privilege | 1:31:00 | 1:31:05 | |
for someone who is not officially
head of state. Can I ask you, Mr | 1:31:05 | 1:31:09 | |
Speaker than the Minister of State,
to carry on with your work because | 1:31:09 | 1:31:14 | |
the Rohingya problem is not going to
go away but we do want to go to | 1:31:14 | 1:31:20 | |
Burma and we want to see exactly how
our money is being spent, so can I | 1:31:20 | 1:31:25 | |
implore both of you to carry on and
see if that can be done this year? | 1:31:25 | 1:31:32 | |
Great pleasure to speak on the half
of the Speaker on this matter. I | 1:31:32 | 1:31:46 | |
should thank him for letting me get
a word in. Sorry, this is not a | 1:31:46 | 1:31:54 | |
subject for allegedly. We will keep
in mind what is happening to | 1:31:54 | 1:31:57 | |
Rohingya and other minorities, but
also those of us who have the | 1:31:57 | 1:32:00 | |
interest of Burma and Burmese people
at heart. Can I associate myself | 1:32:00 | 1:32:12 | |
entirely with my honourable friend's
comments and share my horror of what | 1:32:12 | 1:32:14 | |
we have seen in selecting the
Rohingya people. Many of my | 1:32:14 | 1:32:19 | |
constituents have written to me and
rely on committees to shine a light | 1:32:19 | 1:32:25 | |
on these dark situations. Can I urge
the Minister and Secretary of State | 1:32:25 | 1:32:29 | |
to look at examples from the past,
such as our relationship with | 1:32:29 | 1:32:34 | |
Zimbabwe, where we continued to
support people in Zimbabwe while | 1:32:34 | 1:32:44 | |
they had despotic regime. This is a
very unusual case for visas to be | 1:32:44 | 1:32:49 | |
denied in this way. Is he aware of
any other examples of them being | 1:32:49 | 1:32:54 | |
denied to politicians in a similar
way? Thank you very much from the | 1:32:54 | 1:33:01 | |
contribution. I must confess, it
seems unique circumstances | 1:33:01 | 1:33:08 | |
contribution. I must confess, it
seems unique circumstances, it may | 1:33:08 | 1:33:08 | |
not be but I will write to him
regarding the situation of what is | 1:33:08 | 1:33:12 | |
the situation of refusal of these as
of this sort. Can I get assurances | 1:33:12 | 1:33:18 | |
from Her Majesty's government that
not a single penny of taxpayer money | 1:33:18 | 1:33:24 | |
will go to the regime in Burma, who
is increasingly not only a regime | 1:33:24 | 1:33:30 | |
that practices genocide but also is
becoming a rogue state? May I thank | 1:33:30 | 1:33:42 | |
him for his contribution. I think
all of us recognise we do not wish | 1:33:42 | 1:33:46 | |
to do anything that props up a
regime. May I put in a slight | 1:33:46 | 1:33:51 | |
caveat, which is that we need to
keep lines of communication open, | 1:33:51 | 1:33:59 | |
and if it is felt not least by our
ambassador Andrew Patrick on the | 1:33:59 | 1:34:05 | |
ground, if it is felt there are
individuals who need to keep the | 1:34:05 | 1:34:14 | |
lines of communication open, I not
rule it out. Despite the | 1:34:14 | 1:34:21 | |
government's attempts to conceal the
fact, the Burmese military actions | 1:34:21 | 1:34:26 | |
look a lot like ethnic cleansing.
Isn't it time that the international | 1:34:26 | 1:34:31 | |
community started treating it as
ethnic cleansing? Please be assured | 1:34:31 | 1:34:37 | |
that the work does continue.
Difficult to do this through the | 1:34:37 | 1:34:45 | |
usual context, which would be a UN
Security Council resolution because | 1:34:45 | 1:34:48 | |
it would be retold. We had a meeting
in November, and whilst | 1:34:48 | 1:34:55 | |
understandably and rightly much of
the world's focus must be on the | 1:34:55 | 1:34:59 | |
humanitarian catastrophe that is
happening and could get worse on the | 1:34:59 | 1:35:02 | |
Bangladeshi side of the border,
equally there is no an increasing | 1:35:02 | 1:35:06 | |
focus, and I have had many meetings
over the previous weeks and months, | 1:35:06 | 1:35:13 | |
with the focus on diplomatic and
political solution, not least the | 1:35:13 | 1:35:18 | |
issues he points out. I visited the
Rohingya refugee camp last year with | 1:35:18 | 1:35:28 | |
the Commonwealth Parliamentary
Association, and two nurses from | 1:35:28 | 1:35:32 | |
Kettering General Hospital have
returned from the Rohingya camps, | 1:35:32 | 1:35:36 | |
successfully combating the spread of
disease. Can I draw his attention to | 1:35:36 | 1:35:41 | |
the problem on the Bangladeshi side
of the border? Bangladesh has been | 1:35:41 | 1:35:46 | |
incredibly generous in hosting the
Rohingya refugees and going out of | 1:35:46 | 1:35:50 | |
its way to assist them. But the
Bangladeshis are overwhelmed with | 1:35:50 | 1:35:56 | |
applications for visas from aid
workers and the like, and they are | 1:35:56 | 1:36:00 | |
having difficulty processing them in
a timely way, holding up some of the | 1:36:00 | 1:36:06 | |
aid. Can we help them in overcoming
this problem? He is absolutely | 1:36:06 | 1:36:12 | |
right, it is something we have
identified and we are working | 1:36:12 | 1:36:15 | |
together with DFID to get it sped
up, and our own embassy in | 1:36:15 | 1:36:24 | |
Bangladesh has made and will
continue to make representations to | 1:36:24 | 1:36:26 | |
ensure that NGOs and others,
particularly relating to medical | 1:36:26 | 1:36:34 | |
help, at able to get people on the
ground in Bangladesh. Point of | 1:36:34 | 1:36:44 | |
order, Jonathan Ashworth. We all
heard at prime ministers questions, | 1:36:44 | 1:36:48 | |
the Prime Minister rightly speak of
the importance of early diagnosis | 1:36:48 | 1:36:51 | |
when it comes to cancer. Yet, in
today's newspapers we have learned | 1:36:51 | 1:36:57 | |
that some CCGs are offering cash
incentives to GPs not to refer | 1:36:57 | 1:37:02 | |
patients to hospitals including
cancer patients. We believe this is | 1:37:02 | 1:37:10 | |
totally unacceptable. Has the
Secretary of State for health given | 1:37:10 | 1:37:12 | |
any notice that he intends to come
to the House to make a statement to | 1:37:12 | 1:37:16 | |
tell us how extensive this scheme
is, so we can call upon the | 1:37:16 | 1:37:21 | |
Secretary of State to rule out this
an acceptable practice? Lowe, but it | 1:37:21 | 1:37:31 | |
is open to the shadow Leader of the
House today is this matter that the | 1:37:31 | 1:37:34 | |
business question tomorrow, and I
feel sure that having registered his | 1:37:34 | 1:37:41 | |
concerns today, the honourable
gentleman will articulate them in | 1:37:41 | 1:37:47 | |
subsequent days until he elicits a
ministerial response. Chris Bryant. | 1:37:47 | 1:37:54 | |
You have always concerned yourself
with the issue of political | 1:37:54 | 1:37:57 | |
prisoners but I have discovered
there is one in our own country | 1:37:57 | 1:38:01 | |
because the Foreign Secretary
declared this morning on television | 1:38:01 | 1:38:04 | |
that he was desperate to be able to
publish a letter to the Prime | 1:38:04 | 1:38:10 | |
Minister referred to earlier, but
now apparently the Prime Minister | 1:38:10 | 1:38:13 | |
will not let him. So, the poor chap
is languishing unable to fulfil his | 1:38:13 | 1:38:20 | |
stated intention and desires. I just
wonder, because obviously he wants | 1:38:20 | 1:38:23 | |
to keep the House informed, he wants
to be able to tell us what is going | 1:38:23 | 1:38:29 | |
on. I do not know whether he has
written two letters, and only one | 1:38:29 | 1:38:33 | |
has got into the public domain, but
I wondered if that is a way to free | 1:38:33 | 1:38:38 | |
the Foreign Secretary so he is no
longer a political prisoner in this | 1:38:38 | 1:38:42 | |
way? I read what he said in
reference to his correspondence and | 1:38:42 | 1:38:48 | |
the activities of the Foreign
Secretary, but not entirely for the | 1:38:48 | 1:38:52 | |
first time and not
uncharacteristically, I rather fear | 1:38:52 | 1:38:56 | |
that the honourable gentleman might
have invested me with powers I do | 1:38:56 | 1:39:01 | |
not possess. I do not have power
over responsibility for or the | 1:39:01 | 1:39:14 | |
capacity to free the Secretary of
State for following Commonwealth | 1:39:14 | 1:39:19 | |
affairs. The Foreign Office One, he
calls from a sedentary position. | 1:39:19 | 1:39:33 | |
Some people might think it is a good
thing I am not responsible for him, | 1:39:33 | 1:39:37 | |
and other people may think it a bad
thing. But it is a fact that I am | 1:39:37 | 1:39:45 | |
not responsible for him other than
in regard to his responsibilities to | 1:39:45 | 1:39:50 | |
appear here. Shame, says the
honourable gentleman! We must leave | 1:39:50 | 1:40:01 | |
it there for no. We now come to the
ten minute rule motion in the name | 1:40:01 | 1:40:04 | |
of the honourable gentleman, the
Member for Bassetlaw. Ten minute | 1:40:04 | 1:40:09 | |
rule motion, John Mann. | 1:40:09 | 1:40:15 | |
I rise to propose what I would
suggest of the House is a very | 1:40:15 | 1:40:19 | |
important legislative proposal that
in the three weeks subsequent to me | 1:40:19 | 1:40:25 | |
laid this proposed Bill before the
public Bill office, to an incidence | 1:40:25 | 1:40:32 | |
of occurred directly impacting me,
my staff, my family, there are | 1:40:32 | 1:40:39 | |
specific examples apply the powers
we have in this country with | 1:40:39 | 1:40:44 | |
internet companies are too weak and
why this Bill would transform the | 1:40:44 | 1:40:49 | |
situation. In those two weeks I have
received a series of violent threats | 1:40:49 | 1:40:58 | |
on Twitter directed to myself and my
family and stop they are rightly in | 1:40:58 | 1:41:05 | |
action by the police in the
appropriate way. I immediately on | 1:41:05 | 1:41:14 | |
receiving these series of tweets
registered them in the Twitter style | 1:41:14 | 1:41:20 | |
with Twitter, removes them from the
public domain. The police will | 1:41:20 | 1:41:29 | |
require the precise time that these
tweets were sent. Not the tone with | 1:41:29 | 1:41:36 | |
which I can provide them, where they
go onto the Parliamentary system via | 1:41:36 | 1:41:43 | |
e-mail but the precise time. Twitter
refuses to provide these to me. | 1:41:43 | 1:41:51 | |
Second example is in relation to
Facebook. Whereby that is the | 1:41:51 | 1:41:59 | |
gentleman I believe still in prison
who was convicted in prison for a | 1:41:59 | 1:42:03 | |
series of very aggressive internet
attacks on other members of | 1:42:03 | 1:42:10 | |
Parliament and myself. I was
referred to directly in the court | 1:42:10 | 1:42:17 | |
proceedings. A repeat has been last
week put out through Facebook and | 1:42:17 | 1:42:24 | |
immediately then this fake account,
which is in my name with my face | 1:42:24 | 1:42:32 | |
which could best be described as an
century, and of course statements | 1:42:32 | 1:42:38 | |
none of us in here including myself
would never dream of making, and | 1:42:38 | 1:42:43 | |
intend to incite violence against me
which when originally done, at that | 1:42:43 | 1:42:50 | |
impact with extremists, nicking
directorates and specific threats in | 1:42:50 | 1:42:56 | |
my locality. Facebook with that
refused to assist and provide | 1:42:56 | 1:43:07 | |
immediately deleted Facebook
message. And yet again I could | 1:43:07 | 1:43:13 | |
present that to the police because
the individual originated it may | 1:43:13 | 1:43:17 | |
still be serving a custodial
sentence for precisely this form of | 1:43:17 | 1:43:26 | |
activity with this example are part
of the case taken against him. The | 1:43:26 | 1:43:32 | |
purpose of this Bill was, if this
was the broadcast media, television, | 1:43:32 | 1:43:35 | |
if this was radio, but this was
newspapers, and they failed to | 1:43:35 | 1:43:43 | |
cooperate -- if this was newspapers,
then I would be free to take civil | 1:43:43 | 1:43:48 | |
action against them. Government
could take action against them. | 1:43:48 | 1:43:52 | |
Please could take action against
them. To take action the courts | 1:43:52 | 1:43:58 | |
would potentially be complicated but
the fact it is possible would and | 1:43:58 | 1:44:04 | |
does mean that newspapers with
broadcast media, with radio, that | 1:44:04 | 1:44:10 | |
they are cooperative. Both with
individuals and with the police. | 1:44:10 | 1:44:16 | |
When it comes to the internet
company we have no such powers. Our | 1:44:16 | 1:44:23 | |
law comes from the 1896 United
States communications decency act | 1:44:23 | 1:44:34 | |
section 2:3.0. -- 19 96. It says
explicitly community is conferred | 1:44:34 | 1:44:42 | |
upon the operators of internet
services who are not to be deemed | 1:44:42 | 1:44:47 | |
publishers of and therefore not
legally liable for the words of | 1:44:47 | 1:44:50 | |
third parties who use their
services. In our law this comes from | 1:44:50 | 1:44:58 | |
the European Commission and the
European Union, the European | 1:44:58 | 1:45:05 | |
directive 2000-31 of the European
Parliament and Council of the 8th of | 1:45:05 | 1:45:12 | |
June 2000 which was harmonised into
UK law by an electronic commerce EC | 1:45:12 | 1:45:17 | |
directive predilections 2002. It
again gives publishers immunity | 1:45:17 | 1:45:26 | |
explicitly to the internet companies
which is not there in a free and | 1:45:26 | 1:45:32 | |
competitive market for newspapers,
television, radio. In other words a | 1:45:32 | 1:45:38 | |
specific community only solely
exclusively for internet companies. | 1:45:38 | 1:45:44 | |
I am not seeking, and indeed I am
sure Parliament would not seek, to | 1:45:44 | 1:45:54 | |
interfere with the rights of free
speech and the rights of a free | 1:45:54 | 1:45:58 | |
internet. But the Democratic
internet in exactly the same way we | 1:45:58 | 1:46:02 | |
have a democratic media and free
press has to have the ability that | 1:46:02 | 1:46:10 | |
if there are criminal acts being
carried out that directly impact on | 1:46:10 | 1:46:16 | |
us, and these two examples do
potentially in relation to me, my | 1:46:16 | 1:46:20 | |
staff, my family. And indeed one has
had a criminal prosecution and | 1:46:20 | 1:46:26 | |
imprisonment. We ought to have the
right to use that format. What would | 1:46:26 | 1:46:32 | |
happen if we did? Internet companies
would cooperate immediately. It is | 1:46:32 | 1:46:39 | |
absurd that the police in this
country cannot force Twitter or | 1:46:39 | 1:46:44 | |
Facebook or Google or any of the
others to provide evidence required | 1:46:44 | 1:46:50 | |
for criminal prosecutions, criminal
prosecutions. It is done on | 1:46:50 | 1:46:56 | |
goodwill. And successive governments
have attempted, are attempting, to | 1:46:56 | 1:47:04 | |
get good codes of conduct, the
internet companies have their | 1:47:04 | 1:47:07 | |
conditions of service where they say
what they will do. Well, let me give | 1:47:07 | 1:47:11 | |
an example where I would consider
taking action. It would be precisely | 1:47:11 | 1:47:17 | |
where those terms and conditions
have been broken and the internet | 1:47:17 | 1:47:21 | |
company has failed to act
appropriately. That is precisely an | 1:47:21 | 1:47:26 | |
example where their own terms and
conditions are being broken but they | 1:47:26 | 1:47:29 | |
are failing to act. It cannot be
right that our place with Twitter | 1:47:29 | 1:47:35 | |
for example can wait very many weeks
and are not guaranteed evidence they | 1:47:35 | 1:47:42 | |
require, it could be to do with
terrorism, other violent threats, | 1:47:42 | 1:47:48 | |
but criminality cannot get that.
This simple removal from exemption, | 1:47:48 | 1:47:55 | |
equalising the markets with the
television companies, with radio, | 1:47:55 | 1:48:02 | |
the free newspapers, would create an
equal playing field in the media | 1:48:02 | 1:48:10 | |
market and would get rid of some of
the absurdities which mean that the | 1:48:10 | 1:48:14 | |
same thing can be impacted on, say,
media, but run simultaneously with | 1:48:14 | 1:48:23 | |
that those powers with the internet.
There are countless examples. The | 1:48:23 | 1:48:28 | |
House of Lords, there was a very
good debate initiated by Baroness | 1:48:28 | 1:48:32 | |
Kidron, I haven't got the time to go
through that and I recommend that to | 1:48:32 | 1:48:40 | |
the House, but she went through
precisely a social media companies | 1:48:40 | 1:48:47 | |
are commissioning, editing and
curating content for broadcasting | 1:48:47 | 1:48:49 | |
and our publishing. It affects our
societal values. For example the | 1:48:49 | 1:48:57 | |
spreading of fake news. We have seen
it on the internet with the | 1:48:57 | 1:49:02 | |
potential outbreak of measles from
big news about inoculations, nothing | 1:49:02 | 1:49:07 | |
government could do in relation to
that if the internet company fails | 1:49:07 | 1:49:14 | |
to act, public health in this
country could be a threat. Should | 1:49:14 | 1:49:17 | |
government choose to do that? That
is a different set of questions. | 1:49:17 | 1:49:21 | |
Different set of decisions. But
government cannot do that because | 1:49:21 | 1:49:25 | |
government doesn't have the power to
do that. We are seeing mounting | 1:49:25 | 1:49:29 | |
pressure. Germany has adopted a
fairly modest system in terms of the | 1:49:29 | 1:49:37 | |
potential to applying for a failure
to remove content within 24 hours. | 1:49:37 | 1:49:41 | |
Australia has built-in and ease
safety Commissioner. This Bill | 1:49:41 | 1:49:46 | |
suggests a similar thing could
happen in this country. But at its | 1:49:46 | 1:49:52 | |
core we need to treat the internet
companies in exactly the same way as | 1:49:52 | 1:49:59 | |
other media, whereby a free media
can be taken to court if they are | 1:49:59 | 1:50:04 | |
failing to cooperate on criminality.
What is good enough for TV, radio | 1:50:04 | 1:50:10 | |
and newspapers is good enough for
social media and the internet. I | 1:50:10 | 1:50:14 | |
recommend this proposed Bill to the
House, Mr Deputy Speaker. As many of | 1:50:14 | 1:50:23 | |
the opinion say aye. I come to who
will prepare to bring in your Bill? | 1:50:23 | 1:50:34 | |
Ruth Snead, Lucy Birdsall, Lillian
Greenwood, Anna Turley, Nicky | 1:50:34 | 1:50:39 | |
Morgan, Andrew Percy, Liz Seibel
Roberts, Lisa Cameron, and myself. | 1:50:39 | 1:50:47 | |
Excellent. John Mann.
LAUGHTER | 1:50:47 | 1:50:57 | |
Very important! | 1:50:57 | 1:51:08 | |
Social media service providers...
Second reading what they? Friday, | 1:51:19 | 1:51:26 | |
April 27. On a Friday? Excellent.
Keep going, while you can. | 1:51:26 | 1:51:44 | |
The working group was convened by
the Prime Minister last November, | 1:52:34 | 1:52:39 | |
supported by all party leaders. The
question is as order paper. The ayes | 1:52:39 | 1:52:56 | |
have it. When I come to the motion
on the Independent complaints and | 1:52:56 | 1:53:03 | |
grievance policy, I have selected it
in the name of Kevin Byron. I now | 1:53:03 | 1:53:11 | |
call the Leader of the House to move
the motion. Thank you, a bit of | 1:53:11 | 1:53:20 | |
Groundhog Day here. I beg to move
the motion standing on the order | 1:53:20 | 1:53:23 | |
paper in my name and those of my
working group colleagues. The | 1:53:23 | 1:53:27 | |
working group was convened by the
Prime Minister last November | 1:53:27 | 1:53:30 | |
supported by all party leaders. To
address serious allegations of abuse | 1:53:30 | 1:53:37 | |
and harassment in Parliament. I
announce the publication of the | 1:53:37 | 1:53:40 | |
group's report before February
recess, and I hope members have | 1:53:40 | 1:53:50 | |
considered the more detail. We're
all at the bid is no place for | 1:53:50 | 1:53:54 | |
harassment, abuse and misconduct in
Parliament. We need to ensure there | 1:53:54 | 1:53:59 | |
are robust procedures in place so
everyone is able to work with the | 1:53:59 | 1:54:03 | |
dignity and protection that they
deserve. I believe the working group | 1:54:03 | 1:54:09 | |
proposals do that. During the course
of its work, the group took | 1:54:09 | 1:54:13 | |
extensive evidence in person and
writing from a wide variety of | 1:54:13 | 1:54:19 | |
stakeholders including parliamentary
officials, staff of MPs and peers, | 1:54:19 | 1:54:23 | |
trade unions, academics, authorities
and sexual violence and legal | 1:54:23 | 1:54:27 | |
professionals. The group also
conducted a survey open to a wide | 1:54:27 | 1:54:31 | |
range of people including a number
of pass-holders who had not been | 1:54:31 | 1:54:37 | |
asked for the experience of bullying
and harassment. Many people have | 1:54:37 | 1:54:42 | |
devoted a considerable amount of
time to this work, and after more | 1:54:42 | 1:54:45 | |
than 100 hours of discussion,
consultation and consideration, I | 1:54:45 | 1:54:52 | |
believe we have proposals for the
House to consider today that will | 1:54:52 | 1:54:55 | |
fundamentally change the working
culture in Parliament for the | 1:54:55 | 1:54:58 | |
better. I would like to turn to
these proposals, and briefly set | 1:54:58 | 1:55:04 | |
them out for the House. They are as
follows. Firstly, Parliament will | 1:55:04 | 1:55:10 | |
agree a shared behaviour code, which
will apply to everyone on the estate | 1:55:10 | 1:55:14 | |
or engaged in parliamentary business
regardless of location, and will | 1:55:14 | 1:55:20 | |
underpin the new policy. It will
make clear the expectations for the | 1:55:20 | 1:55:25 | |
behaviour of everyone in the
parliamentary community and will be | 1:55:25 | 1:55:28 | |
consulted on and on that basis.
Secondly, the new complaints and | 1:55:28 | 1:55:32 | |
grievance procedure will be
independent from political parties. | 1:55:32 | 1:55:38 | |
Thirdly, it was acknowledged that
sexual harassment and violence are | 1:55:38 | 1:55:42 | |
different from other forms of
inappropriate behaviour, such as | 1:55:42 | 1:55:47 | |
bullying and intimidation.
Therefore, separate procedures will | 1:55:47 | 1:55:49 | |
be agreed for those looking to raise
a complaint regarding sexual | 1:55:49 | 1:55:53 | |
harassment to those with a complaint
of bullying. This is an important | 1:55:53 | 1:55:59 | |
distinction, and while everyone has
acknowledged the significance of | 1:55:59 | 1:56:03 | |
complaints of sexual harassment,
evidence from staff made clear that | 1:56:03 | 1:56:06 | |
instances of intimidation and
bullying are more prevalent. So, MPs | 1:56:06 | 1:56:17 | |
staff need HR advice, which has been
lacking, and this will go to a long | 1:56:17 | 1:56:21 | |
-- go a long way of resolving
workplace grievances. Importantly, | 1:56:21 | 1:56:27 | |
the new system will be based on the
principles of equality, it will be | 1:56:27 | 1:56:32 | |
confidential and fair to all
parties, it will be in line with the | 1:56:32 | 1:56:36 | |
laws of natural justice, and it will
command the confidence of those who | 1:56:36 | 1:56:41 | |
will use it. The working group took
advice at an early stage that rather | 1:56:41 | 1:56:47 | |
than reinvent the wheel, we should
work with and build on the many | 1:56:47 | 1:56:52 | |
sound processes and systems already
in place here. Today we are bringing | 1:56:52 | 1:56:58 | |
forward a motion that will enable
the House commission to authorise | 1:56:58 | 1:57:03 | |
House officials to take forward the
recommendations of the group and | 1:57:03 | 1:57:06 | |
implement proposals in full. This is
a big step towards creating a more | 1:57:06 | 1:57:14 | |
professional environment and the
Parliament among the best in the | 1:57:14 | 1:57:16 | |
world in treating people with
dignity and respect at work. I'm | 1:57:16 | 1:57:24 | |
grateful to her forgiving way and
want to commend her for her work on | 1:57:24 | 1:57:28 | |
this report. She will agree that
Parliament should be a for Best | 1:57:28 | 1:57:32 | |
practice rather than playing catch
up, so we need to make sure the | 1:57:32 | 1:57:39 | |
procedures relate to everyone,
including crucially extending to | 1:57:39 | 1:57:42 | |
constituency officers, and visitors
to offices as soon as possible. Can | 1:57:42 | 1:57:48 | |
she reassure us that this is a real
priority for her going forward? I | 1:57:48 | 1:57:55 | |
would like to pay tribute to the
honourable lady who is an assiduous | 1:57:55 | 1:57:59 | |
contributor to the work of the
working group, and I thank sincerely | 1:57:59 | 1:58:03 | |
for her dedication. We can recall
these happy hours debating that | 1:58:03 | 1:58:09 | |
point, and we concluded in the end
that this is a priority to make sure | 1:58:09 | 1:58:15 | |
the behaviour code will extend
protection to all those coming into | 1:58:15 | 1:58:24 | |
Parliament, but in the immediate
future we should focus on bedding in | 1:58:24 | 1:58:29 | |
a new complaints procedure dealing
with the Palace of Westminster and | 1:58:29 | 1:58:33 | |
our work in parliamentary duties,
and that as soon as possible, once | 1:58:33 | 1:58:36 | |
it is bedded down through a review
six months after its operation of | 1:58:36 | 1:58:41 | |
how we should deal with others who
come into contact with MPs, where | 1:58:41 | 1:58:45 | |
there is the tricky grey area about,
where is your public life and we | 1:58:45 | 1:58:49 | |
lose your private life? I hope she
is reassured once again by | 1:58:49 | 1:58:53 | |
committing that we must look at
that, she is exactly right. I | 1:58:53 | 1:59:00 | |
appreciate her giving way. Can I
ask, going into the definitions of | 1:59:00 | 1:59:06 | |
bullying, why are the older
versions... The most recent version | 1:59:06 | 1:59:13 | |
takes away the issue of | 1:59:13 | 1:59:17 | |
intentionality, because often
perpetrators hide behind that. What | 1:59:17 | 1:59:19 | |
I can say is that the work on the
detailed procedures including | 1:59:19 | 1:59:26 | |
definitions will be finalised once
the authorities get under way to put | 1:59:26 | 1:59:33 | |
the proposals in place, and if she
wants to propose a different | 1:59:33 | 1:59:36 | |
definition, I am very pleased to
look at it and will take into | 1:59:36 | 1:59:41 | |
account all views in the area. So, I
am committed to ensuring that work | 1:59:41 | 1:59:48 | |
proceeds apace over the next few
months, and I am pleased to report | 1:59:48 | 1:59:52 | |
the House authorities have already
begun preliminary work on several | 1:59:52 | 1:59:57 | |
work streams needed to implement
these policies. Members will also | 1:59:57 | 2:00:01 | |
want to know that the following four
interim steps have already been | 2:00:01 | 2:00:05 | |
taken to improve services available,
and I have mentioned these | 2:00:05 | 2:00:08 | |
previously because we wanted to
ensure we had immediate steps | 2:00:08 | 2:00:13 | |
following the serious allegations
that we all heard about last | 2:00:13 | 2:00:18 | |
November, so firstly, enhanced
support arrangements have been | 2:00:18 | 2:00:21 | |
provided through the extension of
the employee assistance programme | 2:00:21 | 2:00:24 | |
helpline run by health are sure to.
Secondly, face-to-face counselling | 2:00:24 | 2:00:29 | |
sessions can be offered with
appropriate. Thirdly, an interim | 2:00:29 | 2:00:34 | |
service providing HR advice for
member staff was launched in | 2:00:34 | 2:00:38 | |
January, and fourth, political
parties have all updated the | 2:00:38 | 2:00:41 | |
behaviour codes and published them
on the parliamentary intranet. This | 2:00:41 | 2:00:47 | |
demonstrates we have already taken
urgent action, but the new | 2:00:47 | 2:00:50 | |
procedures will go much further. For
the benefit of members not present | 2:00:50 | 2:00:58 | |
at my last statement, I will turn
briefly to the process of making a | 2:00:58 | 2:01:02 | |
complaint or raising grievance
against a member of the House. As | 2:01:02 | 2:01:06 | |
colleagues will appreciate, the
process for raising complaints | 2:01:06 | 2:01:09 | |
against other members of the
parliamentary community such as | 2:01:09 | 2:01:14 | |
peers, members and peers staff, and
contractors, will each differ | 2:01:14 | 2:01:18 | |
according to the role. All
procedures are designed for the | 2:01:18 | 2:01:22 | |
protection of staff and
parliamentarians alike, and have | 2:01:22 | 2:01:25 | |
their own is at the heart. So, it is
intended that the House authorities | 2:01:25 | 2:01:32 | |
will procure two independent
services. 12 consider allegations of | 2:01:32 | 2:01:40 | |
violence, and 12 consider workplace
bullying. Where a resolution is not | 2:01:40 | 2:01:50 | |
possible and a complaint is upheld,
it will be referred to the | 2:01:50 | 2:01:54 | |
parliamentary commission. The role
of the commission will be expanded | 2:01:54 | 2:02:05 | |
and reformed, she will be able to
impose a new range of sanctions | 2:02:05 | 2:02:09 | |
which may include a written apology,
mandatory training or future | 2:02:09 | 2:02:14 | |
behaviour agreements. The
commissioner will be able to review | 2:02:14 | 2:02:17 | |
any finding by the independent
investigator, and where she does so, | 2:02:17 | 2:02:20 | |
she will ensure that have
investigations are also strictly | 2:02:20 | 2:02:25 | |
confidential, that both the
complainant and alleged perpetrator | 2:02:25 | 2:02:27 | |
have access to all evidence, and
crucially, each has a right to | 2:02:27 | 2:02:33 | |
representation or to represent
themselves. These measures will | 2:02:33 | 2:02:37 | |
ensure fairness. In the most serious
of cases, the Commissioner will | 2:02:37 | 2:02:42 | |
refer her findings to the committee
on standards. The committee can | 2:02:42 | 2:02:46 | |
recommend to the House that an
individual is suspended and the | 2:02:46 | 2:02:49 | |
House will vote on the
recommendation. It is to this route | 2:02:49 | 2:02:54 | |
that the existing procedures under
the recall of MPs after 2015 could | 2:02:54 | 2:02:59 | |
be invoked. The trigger for a recall
remains the same as it is now, and | 2:02:59 | 2:03:02 | |
it is no plan for changes to primary
legislation. The working group | 2:03:02 | 2:03:09 | |
recognised the fact that those who
work in this place are often in the | 2:03:09 | 2:03:13 | |
media spotlight and that vexatious
and malicious complaints at a risk. | 2:03:13 | 2:03:17 | |
The new procedures will therefore
ensure checks and balances are in | 2:03:17 | 2:03:21 | |
place to guard against complaints,
while also making sure complainants | 2:03:21 | 2:03:24 | |
can come forward in a safe and
confidential manner. I will turn | 2:03:24 | 2:03:32 | |
into more detail in individual work
streams to implement these streams. | 2:03:32 | 2:03:38 | |
We expect six major work streams to
be established, and I would like to | 2:03:38 | 2:03:41 | |
address these individually. It is
the intention that most of these | 2:03:41 | 2:03:45 | |
work streams will be completed in
three months' time more or less. | 2:03:45 | 2:03:49 | |
Firstly, and importantly, a new
behaviour code for parliament will | 2:03:49 | 2:03:54 | |
be developed. This was a key
recommendation of the working group | 2:03:54 | 2:03:58 | |
report. It will ensure that we're
all aware of and able to promote the | 2:03:58 | 2:04:03 | |
high standards expected in the
parliamentary community. It will | 2:04:03 | 2:04:06 | |
cover all those working in
Westminster and constituency offices | 2:04:06 | 2:04:10 | |
and all pass-holders. With the
approval of the House we will | 2:04:10 | 2:04:16 | |
consult on the new behaviour code.
It is important that those who would | 2:04:16 | 2:04:19 | |
be subject to the code will have the
opportunity to contribute to its | 2:04:19 | 2:04:24 | |
development. This code must be
something that underpins us all, it | 2:04:24 | 2:04:31 | |
will be able to investigate and
resolve allegations of bullying, | 2:04:31 | 2:04:36 | |
harassment and sexual harassment. It
will also be the cornerstone of | 2:04:36 | 2:04:40 | |
cultural change... It is our
intention the behaviour code will be | 2:04:40 | 2:04:48 | |
brought forward within three months.
Secondly, there will be an | 2:04:48 | 2:04:54 | |
implementation work stream around
the bullying and harassment | 2:04:54 | 2:04:56 | |
procedure. This will develop
detailed policies and procedures, | 2:04:56 | 2:05:02 | |
and commission a new reporting
helpline and workplace dispute | 2:05:02 | 2:05:05 | |
resolution service. The new helpline
will signpost new available | 2:05:05 | 2:05:13 | |
services, and they will investigate
independently allegations of | 2:05:13 | 2:05:17 | |
bullying and intimidation. Dedicated
emotional and practical support for | 2:05:17 | 2:05:20 | |
all those involved in a complaint
will be an important aspect of the | 2:05:20 | 2:05:25 | |
new services. Thirdly, there will be
a separate work stream... Could I | 2:05:25 | 2:05:31 | |
just finished this point then I will
give way? Thirdly there will be a | 2:05:31 | 2:05:34 | |
work stream commissioning a new
independent specialist service | 2:05:34 | 2:05:39 | |
around sexual harassment and
violence. A single point of ongoing | 2:05:39 | 2:05:43 | |
support will be provided for
complainants by an independent | 2:05:43 | 2:05:47 | |
sexual violence adviser.
Investigations of misconduct will be | 2:05:47 | 2:05:53 | |
able to be conducted by an
independent investigator with a | 2:05:53 | 2:05:58 | |
specialist qualification in
understanding sexual harassment. I | 2:05:58 | 2:06:00 | |
will give way. Thank you for being
generous with your time. Could I | 2:06:00 | 2:06:06 | |
just caution the media once again
about the issue of mediation due to | 2:06:06 | 2:06:12 | |
the inequalities of power regarding
billing and sexual harassment, -- | 2:06:12 | 2:06:17 | |
bullying. We want to ensure there
are clear processes that ensure | 2:06:17 | 2:06:22 | |
equality of power, and often
mediation has the reverse effect. I | 2:06:22 | 2:06:27 | |
hope I can reassure her that the
issues she raises really was at the | 2:06:27 | 2:06:32 | |
core of all of the evidence we took
and all of the discussions we had | 2:06:32 | 2:06:36 | |
done the determination of the
working group to address the issue | 2:06:36 | 2:06:42 | |
of imbalance of power, to make sure
at the heart of the whole procedure | 2:06:42 | 2:06:48 | |
is the interest of the complainant,
so it is very much complainant lead, | 2:06:48 | 2:06:52 | |
to ensure people do feel safe and
able to come forward in a safe space | 2:06:52 | 2:06:59 | |
without the fear of being
intimidated further. So, I think I | 2:06:59 | 2:07:03 | |
can reassure her on that point, but
I am very happy to speak to her | 2:07:03 | 2:07:08 | |
separately about that, if she wants
further the assurance. Fourthly, new | 2:07:08 | 2:07:14 | |
training is already available to
help people understand more clearly | 2:07:14 | 2:07:18 | |
what types of behaviour might be
considered bullying or harassment | 2:07:18 | 2:07:21 | |
and the impact it can have on
individuals. This is the first step | 2:07:21 | 2:07:27 | |
towards implementing the working
group's recommendation that the new | 2:07:27 | 2:07:31 | |
independent grievance and complaints
policy needs to be supported by a | 2:07:31 | 2:07:34 | |
comprehensive training programme.
Training will be a significant work | 2:07:34 | 2:07:40 | |
stream and will include learning
opportunities for members and their | 2:07:40 | 2:07:44 | |
officers. A new induction programme
has also been introduced, with the | 2:07:44 | 2:07:51 | |
first session this week in response
to the working group's request. | 2:07:51 | 2:07:57 | |
Other individual areas of work,
including the fifth work stream, are | 2:07:57 | 2:08:01 | |
already underway, including work to
prepare for a third-party supplier | 2:08:01 | 2:08:09 | |
of HR advice. This will be supported
by a new member staff bit, and the | 2:08:09 | 2:08:14 | |
first draft has already been
compiled by IPSC and the House | 2:08:14 | 2:08:17 | |
authorities. Finally, the working
group has been clear back to | 2:08:17 | 2:08:23 | |
implement a number of the proposals,
the sixth work stream will develop | 2:08:23 | 2:08:26 | |
the Met and processes of the
parliamentary -- the re-met and | 2:08:26 | 2:08:32 | |
processes of the parliamentary
processes in each House. This means | 2:08:32 | 2:08:40 | |
liaising with each other as
necessary. Changes will also be | 2:08:40 | 2:08:43 | |
likely to be needed at the end of
these processes to the existing | 2:08:43 | 2:08:48 | |
parliamentary codes, not least to...
I welcome the clarity given by the | 2:08:48 | 2:08:56 | |
order paper, and I can assure
members that having recently met | 2:08:56 | 2:09:04 | |
with the new commissioner of the
standards myself and Shedlock -- | 2:09:04 | 2:09:08 | |
scheduled a meeting with the
standards committee, I can give the | 2:09:08 | 2:09:11 | |
assurance that consultation will
continue and will form a key part of | 2:09:11 | 2:09:15 | |
the next age of our work. It is
important that the development of | 2:09:15 | 2:09:23 | |
these work streams is underpinned by
fairness, confidentiality and add a | 2:09:23 | 2:09:27 | |
key ignition of the unique
environment in which these | 2:09:27 | 2:09:30 | |
procedures are being implemented.
The new arrangements must be | 2:09:30 | 2:09:34 | |
monitored and reviewed and embedded
as part of a wider change in | 2:09:34 | 2:09:39 | |
culture. I would like to pay tribute
in this regard to the political | 2:09:39 | 2:09:46 | |
affairs committee. Unfortunately the
letter was omitted from the list of | 2:09:46 | 2:09:55 | |
written submissions, for which I
apologise. One of the suggestions | 2:09:55 | 2:09:58 | |
made in the submission was the
importance of the review and | 2:09:58 | 2:10:03 | |
scrutiny of the working group's
proposals. It is our attention -- | 2:10:03 | 2:10:06 | |
intention that once the proposals
have been implemented, a Crosshouse | 2:10:06 | 2:10:11 | |
body order group will assess the
operation of the new processes. In | 2:10:11 | 2:10:16 | |
the meantime a steering group whose
membership will be based on the | 2:10:16 | 2:10:22 | |
composition of the working group
will oversee the implementation | 2:10:22 | 2:10:24 | |
period. | 2:10:24 | 2:10:31 | |
I am
period. | 2:10:31 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the measures
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the measures the
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the measures the
working group has recommended will | 2:10:32 | 2:10:34 | |
provide the basis with the
significant and sustainable changes | 2:10:34 | 2:10:36 | |
to which we all aspire. A parliament
that provides dignity and work for | 2:10:36 | 2:10:42 | |
all. We need to make sure that our
Parliament is among the best in the | 2:10:42 | 2:10:48 | |
world, demonstrating our commitment
to equality, justice and fairness. I | 2:10:48 | 2:10:56 | |
hope the House will interest the
working group's recommendations | 2:10:56 | 2:10:58 | |
today. The question is as on the
order paper. Then I think the Leader | 2:10:58 | 2:11:10 | |
of the House but opening the debate,
it is now the fourth time this | 2:11:10 | 2:11:14 | |
matter has been before the House and
it is good we can continue to debate | 2:11:14 | 2:11:18 | |
this important topic. We have had
three statements and know this | 2:11:18 | 2:11:23 | |
motion. If we cast our minds back it
was to the first meeting the Prime | 2:11:23 | 2:11:27 | |
Minister and leaders of other
representatives of the party, that | 2:11:27 | 2:11:31 | |
was on Monday the 6th of November 20
17. The report was published on the | 2:11:31 | 2:11:37 | |
8th of February 20 18. I certainly
have passed it on to every member of | 2:11:37 | 2:11:43 | |
the opposition. I want to place on
record my thanks to all the staff | 2:11:43 | 2:11:48 | |
involved putting together the report
and all colleagues involved in the | 2:11:48 | 2:11:56 | |
working group. All this motion does
is set out the works at the House | 2:11:56 | 2:11:59 | |
authorities have to undertake. There
needs to be time at how to put the | 2:11:59 | 2:12:03 | |
processes and procedures in place
and of course the working group | 2:12:03 | 2:12:08 | |
can't do that. To pick up the point
of my friend the honourable member | 2:12:08 | 2:12:12 | |
for York Central who worked on this
sector previously, what happened to | 2:12:12 | 2:12:22 | |
the full-time permanent person who
feeds into the some of the leader | 2:12:22 | 2:12:25 | |
has outlined in detail the work that
needs to be done so I will confine | 2:12:25 | 2:12:35 | |
myself to very two reef areas. As to
training, and any programme, I don't | 2:12:35 | 2:12:44 | |
consider to be, it is not the
judgment of people's views but just | 2:12:44 | 2:12:51 | |
to ensure everyone is in the same
place, and it will be useful for all | 2:12:51 | 2:12:56 | |
members to update with the latest
and behaviour in a working place. I | 2:12:56 | 2:13:05 | |
am grateful. Can we not ensure that
training is mandatory, face-to-face | 2:13:05 | 2:13:14 | |
and also we don't have to wait until
the next Parliament but it is | 2:13:14 | 2:13:18 | |
brought in within this year. I think
the honourable friend for her | 2:13:18 | 2:13:24 | |
comments and I've would want to see
this from any training programme. I | 2:13:24 | 2:13:29 | |
think we expect something to be put
in place after three months when the | 2:13:29 | 2:13:33 | |
permanent person has looked at all
the details of what they have to do. | 2:13:33 | 2:13:40 | |
The Leader of the House knows that a
few people have been asked and were | 2:13:40 | 2:13:47 | |
allowed to join the group, but in my
view I think the steering group | 2:13:47 | 2:13:52 | |
should be a bit more representative
and perhaps include other groups and | 2:13:52 | 2:13:56 | |
unions. I would support the
inclusion of the House trade union | 2:13:56 | 2:14:02 | |
side to widen the representation
slightly but maybe the numbers on | 2:14:02 | 2:14:06 | |
the steering group need to be
reduced. But most importantly to | 2:14:06 | 2:14:10 | |
wear number of new initiatives set
up and when those events first hit | 2:14:10 | 2:14:16 | |
us in November Mr Speaker acted very
swiftly and extended the helpline to | 2:14:16 | 2:14:24 | |
24 hours and seven days a week from
health assured and it would be | 2:14:24 | 2:14:29 | |
useful to have those figures and how
that is used, perhaps at the next | 2:14:29 | 2:14:33 | |
commission meeting because it would
be six months it would have been | 2:14:33 | 2:14:36 | |
extended to every single person
working on the estate. I don't | 2:14:36 | 2:14:43 | |
underestimate the amount of work
that these to be done by the House | 2:14:43 | 2:14:46 | |
authorities and while it is useful
to get updates from time to time | 2:14:46 | 2:14:49 | |
they do need to be left to get on
with the work. Consulting with the | 2:14:49 | 2:14:57 | |
member programmes Valley and his
Committee and Essex and his | 2:14:57 | 2:15:04 | |
Committee and all members of the
other have something to offer. It is | 2:15:04 | 2:15:08 | |
only when processors are in place
and usable we know if they are | 2:15:08 | 2:15:12 | |
robust and command the sport of
those who seek to use them. The | 2:15:12 | 2:15:17 | |
opposition support the motion is
tabled and amended and look forward | 2:15:17 | 2:15:21 | |
to be updated. We thank the staff
are taking on this task so we have a | 2:15:21 | 2:15:27 | |
truly modern Parliament where
everyone knows the boundaries of | 2:15:27 | 2:15:30 | |
acceptable behaviour in a safe and
secure workplace. | 2:15:30 | 2:15:43 | |
It is just a few months since
Parliament faced a wave of | 2:15:43 | 2:15:48 | |
allegations and bullying and sexual
harassment, and atmosphere in richer | 2:15:48 | 2:15:53 | |
times it was hard to distinguish,
serious cases from the proliferation | 2:15:53 | 2:15:57 | |
accusations and rumours. It exposed
a lack of credible and transparent | 2:15:57 | 2:16:06 | |
and robust system for existing
complaints and periods is about | 2:16:06 | 2:16:11 | |
bullying and sexual harassment. It
led to the establishment of the | 2:16:11 | 2:16:14 | |
working group and their report which
I fully support and it is carefully | 2:16:14 | 2:16:19 | |
drafted and reflect a great deal of
thought and discussion. The working | 2:16:19 | 2:16:23 | |
group has proposed to burst the
adoption of a new shared behaviour | 2:16:23 | 2:16:27 | |
code for all who work in Parliament
and its members. Secondly the | 2:16:27 | 2:16:31 | |
introduction of a new independent
complaints and grievance policy to | 2:16:31 | 2:16:38 | |
reflect this. There's not
unsurprisingly concentrates on | 2:16:38 | 2:16:41 | |
creating new rules and the
procedures for investigating | 2:16:41 | 2:16:45 | |
incidents and complaints by police
to try to address the present | 2:16:45 | 2:16:49 | |
hodgepodge arrangements from which
different categories of people and | 2:16:49 | 2:16:53 | |
the glaring gaps of this system of
how we employ and care for our | 2:16:53 | 2:16:59 | |
staff. The working group has rightly
spent a lot of time discussing and | 2:16:59 | 2:17:06 | |
defining what constitutes the bad
behaviours that must be called out. | 2:17:06 | 2:17:10 | |
But there is also a need to address
how Parliament arrived at this | 2:17:10 | 2:17:15 | |
situation. How a culture of
tolerance towards bullying and | 2:17:15 | 2:17:19 | |
sexual harassment became embedded
and let substantially unchallenged | 2:17:19 | 2:17:23 | |
until now. Very few people who come
into political life at whatever | 2:17:23 | 2:17:28 | |
level and would have the capacity in
this building to work in Parliament, | 2:17:28 | 2:17:34 | |
very few are bad people and most are
appalled about the culture that has | 2:17:34 | 2:17:40 | |
been exposed. So how have we let
this happen close like after all, | 2:17:40 | 2:17:48 | |
MPs are already subject to the House
of Commons code of conduct will stop | 2:17:48 | 2:17:52 | |
as employers we are already covered
by employment law and there is the | 2:17:52 | 2:17:56 | |
respect policy there to protect
staff of the House. It is clear | 2:17:56 | 2:18:00 | |
however that there needs to be a
wider and continuing discussion | 2:18:00 | 2:18:04 | |
about the positive attitudes and
kinds of behaviour that we want to | 2:18:04 | 2:18:09 | |
promote in Parliament and in public
life and what the values and | 2:18:09 | 2:18:15 | |
principles are upon which those
positive attitudes and behaviours | 2:18:15 | 2:18:17 | |
should be based. The remit of the
public administration Constitutional | 2:18:17 | 2:18:24 | |
affairs Committee which I chair
includes oversight of the Committee | 2:18:24 | 2:18:30 | |
and public web, ministerial code,
civil service code and special | 2:18:30 | 2:18:32 | |
advisers code and the workers
concerned with leadership and | 2:18:32 | 2:18:38 | |
governance in the civil service and
public bodies so we have done a lot | 2:18:38 | 2:18:42 | |
of work on this area. In December
they submitted evidence to the | 2:18:42 | 2:18:47 | |
working group showing drawing on
work it has carried out in other | 2:18:47 | 2:18:52 | |
areas. This was in the form of the
letter to the Leader of the House | 2:18:52 | 2:18:57 | |
which might right honourable friend
very kindly acknowledged was not | 2:18:57 | 2:19:00 | |
included amongst the record of
written submissions received by the | 2:19:00 | 2:19:03 | |
group and I know it was
substantially discussed and I'm | 2:19:03 | 2:19:06 | |
grateful to the spokesman for the
opposition for drawing attention to | 2:19:06 | 2:19:12 | |
it. Some of the reasons for our
failures are practical and | 2:19:12 | 2:19:18 | |
procedural. The working group has
made great strides to address these. | 2:19:18 | 2:19:22 | |
However it is also clear that there
is confusion among MPs and others | 2:19:22 | 2:19:29 | |
about the behaviour should be
subject to public scrutiny. And what | 2:19:29 | 2:19:32 | |
should be regarded as entirely
private. As we argued in our | 2:19:32 | 2:19:37 | |
submission to the Parliamentary
commission standards review of the | 2:19:37 | 2:19:42 | |
House of Commons code of conduct
last year this commission is not | 2:19:42 | 2:19:46 | |
resolved by our own current Commons
code. Far from it. As PACAC set out, | 2:19:46 | 2:19:52 | |
in fact, I was there is a
fundamental ambiguity as to whether | 2:19:52 | 2:20:01 | |
our Commons code of conduct is
intended to function as a set of | 2:20:01 | 2:20:06 | |
principles which govern the whole of
members behaviour which would | 2:20:06 | 2:20:09 | |
naturally extend to a degree into
private sphere of MPs conduct or | 2:20:09 | 2:20:14 | |
whether it is intended simply as a
set of regulations which are mostly | 2:20:14 | 2:20:21 | |
about financial disclosures relating
only to an MP's public role. And in | 2:20:21 | 2:20:26 | |
fact the 2015 code states that it
does not seek to regulate what | 2:20:26 | 2:20:30 | |
members do in their private and
personal lives and yet it is clear | 2:20:30 | 2:20:35 | |
from these recent controversies that
it is not always possible to keep | 2:20:35 | 2:20:37 | |
the two are separate as many of us
would like. The risk is now that | 2:20:37 | 2:20:44 | |
this new behaviour code will be once
again mainly concerned with rules | 2:20:44 | 2:20:50 | |
and regulations and new procedures
for enforcement and that this is | 2:20:50 | 2:20:55 | |
just patched onto the present system
which has manifestly failed in at | 2:20:55 | 2:21:00 | |
least one of its main objectives,
which is to promote public | 2:21:00 | 2:21:02 | |
confidence in the standards we
observe in Parliament we should not | 2:21:02 | 2:21:06 | |
be surprised if problems continue to
rise. The working group is right to | 2:21:06 | 2:21:13 | |
promote a system of training to
support the new behaviour code. I | 2:21:13 | 2:21:18 | |
think there is going to be some
problems persuading some of our | 2:21:18 | 2:21:21 | |
colleagues that they should be
subject to such training and I will | 2:21:21 | 2:21:23 | |
come to that point in a moment. It
is easy to put into a document like | 2:21:23 | 2:21:29 | |
this but the practicalities of
persuading people to participate, | 2:21:29 | 2:21:34 | |
but what about extending that to
training about what the seven | 2:21:34 | 2:21:38 | |
principles of public life are
actually intended to mean in our | 2:21:38 | 2:21:44 | |
lives and of all the public figures
in this place? I give way. I can't | 2:21:44 | 2:21:51 | |
quite keep waiting until he tells
you whether or not he will agree | 2:21:51 | 2:21:54 | |
that in order to persuade colleagues
to undertake some training, some | 2:21:54 | 2:21:58 | |
kind of sanctions might concentrate
people's minds. For example having | 2:21:58 | 2:22:01 | |
paid out or something similar. I am
so much more in favour of persuasion | 2:22:01 | 2:22:08 | |
than coercion. And in the end can I
just tell the honourable lady you | 2:22:08 | 2:22:14 | |
can lead a horse to water but you
cannot make them drink. You could | 2:22:14 | 2:22:20 | |
force MPs to attend a training
session but what kind of attitude | 2:22:20 | 2:22:24 | |
would they have two words that
training if they did not feel it was | 2:22:24 | 2:22:28 | |
something they wanted to do. Just
take a step back and think about how | 2:22:28 | 2:22:34 | |
we want to do this. I do agree with
her. Unless we promote conversation | 2:22:34 | 2:22:40 | |
and understanding about the
principles and values that should | 2:22:40 | 2:22:45 | |
guide behaviour, the risk is
confusion about what is acceptable | 2:22:45 | 2:22:48 | |
or not will persist. Rules and
regulations are of course important | 2:22:48 | 2:22:56 | |
but PACAC's work has shown so often
that when rules are not underpinned | 2:22:56 | 2:23:00 | |
by clear principles and values which
are understood, discussed and talked | 2:23:00 | 2:23:02 | |
about, the outcome is a
preoccupation with compliance with | 2:23:02 | 2:23:08 | |
the rules rather than upholding but
reflects the values and principles | 2:23:08 | 2:23:13 | |
that we want to see upheld. The road
to damnation, the road to damnation | 2:23:13 | 2:23:19 | |
is all too congested these days with
people who argue as conduct was, | 2:23:19 | 2:23:25 | |
could, within the rule, unquote. I
am very much enjoying his comments | 2:23:25 | 2:23:33 | |
and it is what we can do to improve
the culture of this place and I | 2:23:33 | 2:23:39 | |
wholeheartedly endorse his
suggestion of training on the simple | 2:23:39 | 2:23:42 | |
principles of public life. I think
we probably need some sanctions in | 2:23:42 | 2:23:49 | |
training but we need a different way
of looking at it, there is an | 2:23:49 | 2:23:52 | |
arrogance people have and they seem
to take the view that they didn't | 2:23:52 | 2:23:54 | |
need training as a learning should
be something that we stop at the age | 2:23:54 | 2:23:58 | |
of 18 when we leave full-time
education rather than something we | 2:23:58 | 2:24:01 | |
should continually aim to find out
more and work out how to do our job | 2:24:01 | 2:24:06 | |
and fulfil responsibilities better,
continual learning and continual | 2:24:06 | 2:24:08 | |
training. I couldn't agree more with
the honourable lady and they so much | 2:24:08 | 2:24:16 | |
want there to win this argument and
hearts and minds with this idyllic | 2:24:16 | 2:24:20 | |
rather than have to resort to
coercion which would be so | 2:24:20 | 2:24:28 | |
counter-productive in terms of what
she really wants to be achieved, | 2:24:28 | 2:24:32 | |
because to avoid just being
preoccupied with compliance in the | 2:24:32 | 2:24:40 | |
future, but the regulations and the
principles and values that we won't | 2:24:40 | 2:24:44 | |
behaviour to reflect must be clearly
set out and adjudicated. Perhaps | 2:24:44 | 2:24:49 | |
only a breach of the rules attracts
sanction but nevertheless there | 2:24:49 | 2:24:53 | |
needs to be some authority and we
suggest in respect of MPs the | 2:24:53 | 2:24:58 | |
Parliamentary Commissioner for
standards who will at least call | 2:24:58 | 2:25:01 | |
that people who are failing to live
up to the principles and values we | 2:25:01 | 2:25:04 | |
have all signed up to. They also
argued in our submission that the | 2:25:04 | 2:25:08 | |
rules should be adjudicated by a
separate person with appropriate | 2:25:08 | 2:25:13 | |
legal expertise and the appointment
of legal advice the Parliamentary | 2:25:13 | 2:25:17 | |
Commissioner for standards is a
really good step in that direction | 2:25:17 | 2:25:21 | |
and in fact the Parliamentary
Commissioner for standards has one | 2:25:21 | 2:25:24 | |
of the thought leaders is perhaps
one of the more important than her | 2:25:24 | 2:25:28 | |
role as adjudicator of rules. | 2:25:28 | 2:25:33 | |
The working group recognises the
need for comprehensive training for | 2:25:33 | 2:25:36 | |
MPs, peers and staff to help them
understand harassment and sexual | 2:25:36 | 2:25:41 | |
abuse and to assist professional
practice and members in their | 2:25:41 | 2:25:48 | |
positions and employers. It is
essential to | 2:25:48 | 2:26:00 | |
who will not have the authority to
carry out that kind of training that | 2:26:03 | 2:26:08 | |
the honourable lady referred to
earlier. The culture of an | 2:26:08 | 2:26:13 | |
organisation is the responsibility
of its leaders. We parliamentarians | 2:26:13 | 2:26:19 | |
must be the champions of change or
will not happen. And we must be held | 2:26:19 | 2:26:25 | |
accountable for its success. We
cannot delegate this vital | 2:26:25 | 2:26:28 | |
government's function to anyone
else, and normal parliament secure | 2:26:28 | 2:26:32 | |
public trust if we seem incapable of
exercising effective governance. I | 2:26:32 | 2:26:39 | |
give way. I wondered what his
concerns are about the standards | 2:26:39 | 2:26:46 | |
committee and the role of the
standards committee when it comes to | 2:26:46 | 2:26:50 | |
identifying what is relevant
sanction? Because the standards | 2:26:50 | 2:26:54 | |
committee is made up of some MPs are
least, it could be open to the | 2:26:54 | 2:27:00 | |
accusation of MPs marking their own
Hallmark, is essentially it is MPs | 2:27:00 | 2:27:04 | |
who will make your own decision over
whether a colleague is expelled long | 2:27:04 | 2:27:13 | |
enough. All of these are good ideas,
in terms of marking our own | 2:27:13 | 2:27:20 | |
Hallmark, I think this is an
unavoidable consequence of the | 2:27:20 | 2:27:24 | |
constitutional position of this
House and the other place. But what | 2:27:24 | 2:27:29 | |
must be much more explicit is the
advice on which we are marking our | 2:27:29 | 2:27:37 | |
own Hallmark, and that is why I
think having legal advice for the | 2:27:37 | 2:27:41 | |
parliamentary commission over
standards is important, and in the | 2:27:41 | 2:27:45 | |
end having someone who simply
adjudicates or provides an | 2:27:45 | 2:27:49 | |
adjudication on far clearer legal
principles by someone who has | 2:27:49 | 2:27:53 | |
juridical experience of judging
evidence and drills, someone like a | 2:27:53 | 2:28:00 | |
judge, rather than this vague
arrangement we have at the moment. | 2:28:00 | 2:28:04 | |
That is not to criticise any past or
present parliamentary commissioner | 2:28:04 | 2:28:08 | |
for standards, it is just we asked
the person to take on the | 2:28:08 | 2:28:11 | |
responsibility to adjudicate on
rules and evidence they may not | 2:28:11 | 2:28:18 | |
actually have much training and
experience to do so. It is not a | 2:28:18 | 2:28:22 | |
qualification for the job, it is
only one of them, rather than the | 2:28:22 | 2:28:28 | |
qualification. I hope that answers
the question. On the instruction of | 2:28:28 | 2:28:34 | |
an independent complaints and
grievance policy to underpin the | 2:28:34 | 2:28:36 | |
behaviour code, I am delighted the
working group has recognised the | 2:28:36 | 2:28:42 | |
need to make sure behaviour can be
addressed effectively. They have | 2:28:42 | 2:28:46 | |
also recognised appropriate support
is available for complainants and | 2:28:46 | 2:28:51 | |
alleged perpetrators and crucially
the need for an HR service for MPs | 2:28:51 | 2:28:55 | |
and peers staff. I would like to
endorse the conclusions, the latter | 2:28:55 | 2:29:00 | |
of which was included in the working
group. -- submission to the working | 2:29:00 | 2:29:05 | |
group to the recent scandal is in
large part about a failure of our | 2:29:05 | 2:29:16 | |
own governments. This stems from a
degree of a field by Parliament to | 2:29:16 | 2:29:20 | |
establish means by which we can be
more mindful of ourselves as an | 2:29:20 | 2:29:25 | |
institution. As always, every action
there is are crying for more | 2:29:25 | 2:29:31 | |
comprehensive rules and tougher
sanctions against those who break | 2:29:31 | 2:29:35 | |
them, which is undoubtedly
important. Good governance is also | 2:29:35 | 2:29:39 | |
however about much more than this,
and we now have an opportunity to | 2:29:39 | 2:29:42 | |
have a much more positive
conversation about what values we | 2:29:42 | 2:29:47 | |
want to promote and that we expect
public leaders to live by them. They | 2:29:47 | 2:29:53 | |
hope the proposed behaviour code
will clearly set out these | 2:29:53 | 2:29:56 | |
principles and values and that the
review and scrutiny of the new | 2:29:56 | 2:30:01 | |
system's success will assess how
successfully the principles and | 2:30:01 | 2:30:09 | |
values are embedded in attitude and
behaviour. This reform also needs to | 2:30:09 | 2:30:14 | |
be properly integrated into reformed
House of Commons code of conduct, | 2:30:14 | 2:30:19 | |
and I know my right honourable
friend has said there will be | 2:30:19 | 2:30:23 | |
changes to the code as a consequence
to this. My right honourable friend | 2:30:23 | 2:30:30 | |
the Leader of the House emphasised
how the working group agrees that | 2:30:30 | 2:30:32 | |
there should be a review of the
recommendations once implemented. | 2:30:32 | 2:30:38 | |
The recommendation is that this
should be overseen by a joint | 2:30:38 | 2:30:42 | |
committee of both houses, which
should also include representatives | 2:30:42 | 2:30:45 | |
of unions and employees,
organisations like the working | 2:30:45 | 2:30:49 | |
group, and it should cover the codes
of conduct of both houses. If such a | 2:30:49 | 2:30:55 | |
review is not conducted and we fail
to integrate the new arrangements | 2:30:55 | 2:30:59 | |
fully with the existing arrangements
in both houses, I feel we will not | 2:30:59 | 2:31:03 | |
have established a robust system for
the future that we all wished to | 2:31:03 | 2:31:08 | |
see. Thank you, it is a pleasure to
follow the honourable gentleman. I | 2:31:08 | 2:31:16 | |
always seem to follow him with
debates in this House, which is | 2:31:16 | 2:31:21 | |
probably how it should be given his
thoughtful contributions. I want to | 2:31:21 | 2:31:25 | |
give about -- discuss a couple of
the issues. Can I thank the Leader | 2:31:25 | 2:31:32 | |
of the House and congratulate her
for the state leadership she offered | 2:31:32 | 2:31:35 | |
throughout the working group, she
mentioned 100 hours, and I looking | 2:31:35 | 2:31:40 | |
at my colleagues behind me and I
have to say it was not the most | 2:31:40 | 2:31:45 | |
peaceful 100 hours throughout the
sessions, and there was a fractious | 2:31:45 | 2:31:48 | |
debate around some of the issues,
but I think this is a solid | 2:31:48 | 2:31:53 | |
cross-party piece of work, and I
have to concede, I do not think in | 2:31:53 | 2:31:58 | |
my 17 years in the House but I have
been involved in a piece of work | 2:31:58 | 2:32:05 | |
that is so comprehensively looked
at, which is tribute to all members. | 2:32:05 | 2:32:10 | |
Mainly those in the chamber here
today, in the way they diligently | 2:32:10 | 2:32:15 | |
approach the work underway it is
done. It is a privilege to be part | 2:32:15 | 2:32:18 | |
of this working group and I hope to
have played some part in designing | 2:32:18 | 2:32:23 | |
this hugely important report. I also
want to pay thanks to the many | 2:32:23 | 2:32:28 | |
witnesses that came in front of the
working group and the staff that | 2:32:28 | 2:32:32 | |
played a vital role in helping
provide testimony to the working | 2:32:32 | 2:32:36 | |
group. I want to thank the
Secretariat, some of whom are here, | 2:32:36 | 2:32:43 | |
regarding this debate and produced
what is a very readable report. It | 2:32:43 | 2:32:54 | |
is also a new way of working, and
possibly they most innovative | 2:32:54 | 2:32:58 | |
feature is we have the staff from
the House on the working group, and | 2:32:58 | 2:33:07 | |
I think what that does is give added
legitimacy to this report and | 2:33:07 | 2:33:11 | |
hopefully go a long way to ensure it
is taken up with a great deal of | 2:33:11 | 2:33:18 | |
confidence from the staff who worked
on the report. I hope that in the | 2:33:18 | 2:33:26 | |
future we involve the staff in the
work, particularly when it comes to | 2:33:26 | 2:33:31 | |
House issues. We need to hear the
voices of the staff because as we | 2:33:31 | 2:33:34 | |
found out in the report, they have
solid contributions to make about | 2:33:34 | 2:33:39 | |
how the House functions. I believe
this is a significant and ambitious | 2:33:39 | 2:33:46 | |
piece of work which will hopefully
help to redefine the culture in the | 2:33:46 | 2:33:52 | |
Westminster workplace, and for me
the most important part of this | 2:33:52 | 2:33:55 | |
report is the first sentence of the
first paragraph which reads, all | 2:33:55 | 2:34:01 | |
those who work for or with
Parliament have a right to dignity | 2:34:01 | 2:34:05 | |
at work. Something you would feel
does not need to be said, but it | 2:34:05 | 2:34:10 | |
underpins everything throughout this
report, and I believe it cannot be | 2:34:10 | 2:34:14 | |
said enough and reiterated enough as
we go forward. If we look at the | 2:34:14 | 2:34:22 | |
parliamentary state, -- estate,
50,000 people work in and around the | 2:34:22 | 2:34:25 | |
estate. You have we are done
demanding members of parliament, | 2:34:25 | 2:34:31 | |
even weirder House of Lords, and the
staff who provide support so we can | 2:34:31 | 2:34:36 | |
stand here and make these grand
speeches and impress our | 2:34:36 | 2:34:40 | |
constituents. It is our staff that
provide us. So it is full of very | 2:34:40 | 2:34:45 | |
diverse and sometimes we're done
strange people, we would have to | 2:34:45 | 2:34:47 | |
conclude and concede. There is one
thing in common that should unite | 2:34:47 | 2:34:55 | |
everyone in this estate, and that is
the conviction that everyone who | 2:34:55 | 2:34:58 | |
works here has the right to expect
an environment free from bullying | 2:34:58 | 2:35:06 | |
and harassment, especially sexual
harassment. There should be zero | 2:35:06 | 2:35:09 | |
tolerance for any inappropriate
behaviour. And this report was not | 2:35:09 | 2:35:16 | |
created in a vacuum, it was a
response to some very serious | 2:35:16 | 2:35:21 | |
allegations that emerged at the end
of last year, when all parties got | 2:35:21 | 2:35:27 | |
together and decided something had
to be done and this had to be | 2:35:27 | 2:35:29 | |
addressed. It was such an issue that
something had to be done. It is also | 2:35:29 | 2:35:37 | |
part of the wider part of debate
going on following the Hardy when | 2:35:37 | 2:35:47 | |
steam allegations in Hollywood. We
are at a critical juncture about the | 2:35:47 | 2:35:56 | |
debate. -- Harvey Weinstein. Have to
decide what is and is not acceptable | 2:35:56 | 2:36:05 | |
and make an important contribution
to dignity in work. It is absolutely | 2:36:05 | 2:36:10 | |
essential that Parliament leads the
way. This is the forum of national | 2:36:10 | 2:36:20 | |
debate, and we would be shirking in
our responsibility if we did not put | 2:36:20 | 2:36:24 | |
out the strongest possible statement
that it is not acceptable in this | 2:36:24 | 2:36:27 | |
place as it should be unacceptable
in any workplace across the United | 2:36:27 | 2:36:34 | |
Kingdom. If we did not lead the way
and put in place procedures and | 2:36:34 | 2:36:37 | |
processes to deal with our own
issues, we would be letting down the | 2:36:37 | 2:36:43 | |
people we serve across this country.
We should set the example and I | 2:36:43 | 2:36:46 | |
believe this document does that. It
sets out clearly our commitment to | 2:36:46 | 2:36:53 | |
put our own House in order. We have
sort of got a sense of how big scale | 2:36:53 | 2:36:59 | |
this problem is in our particular
work place because as part of our | 2:36:59 | 2:37:05 | |
work in the working group we
commissioned a short survey asking | 2:37:05 | 2:37:09 | |
people in Parliament about the
experiences, and we got a very solid | 2:37:09 | 2:37:14 | |
response from members of staff who
worked across the estate, when asked | 2:37:14 | 2:37:19 | |
about the experiences regarding
bullying. 1377 responses. The | 2:37:19 | 2:37:26 | |
results of the survey, combined by
the survey done by Unite gave us a | 2:37:26 | 2:37:40 | |
sense of what was going on, and some
results were shocking. It revealed | 2:37:40 | 2:37:45 | |
that the bullying, harassment and
sexual harassment had been a feature | 2:37:45 | 2:37:48 | |
in the lives of so many people who
work in Parliament. 39% of all | 2:37:48 | 2:37:57 | |
respondents have reported an
experience of sexual harassment or | 2:37:57 | 2:38:00 | |
bullying in the past year. 19%
reported experience of sexual | 2:38:00 | 2:38:03 | |
harassment including sexually
inappropriate behaviour. I have | 2:38:03 | 2:38:11 | |
received an e-mail from the young
woman's trust, an important e-mail | 2:38:11 | 2:38:16 | |
which I saw too late to include in
this part of my speech, but it | 2:38:16 | 2:38:20 | |
emphasised clearly that there are
issues in workplaces right across | 2:38:20 | 2:38:23 | |
the country, and the figures the
sound in the workplace is that young | 2:38:23 | 2:38:27 | |
women currently work in is similar
to what we found in the House of | 2:38:27 | 2:38:36 | |
Commons. What we have heard is a new
shared code of behaviour which will | 2:38:36 | 2:38:47 | |
underpin the new complaints and
grievance policy. What we will have | 2:38:47 | 2:38:50 | |
is a new transparent system that
will apply natural justice at its | 2:38:50 | 2:38:57 | |
core. It will be independent of the
political parties, and that is a key | 2:38:57 | 2:39:05 | |
feature. There have been concerns
raised about the political parties' | 2:39:05 | 2:39:11 | |
ability to do this, and I think all
parties are just bad at doing this | 2:39:11 | 2:39:17 | |
stuff. What we have several
unresolved cases of people who have | 2:39:17 | 2:39:22 | |
been charged with all sorts of
activities, who have still not had | 2:39:22 | 2:39:26 | |
this how to properly, -- had it
heard properly, and there is a lot | 2:39:26 | 2:39:32 | |
of discussion about the failure to
take this up because of the fear | 2:39:32 | 2:39:37 | |
that the political parties will try
to defend and protect their own | 2:39:37 | 2:39:42 | |
political interest, so an
independent route is therefore | 2:39:42 | 2:39:44 | |
absolutely essential. Partied it
will still be available for people | 2:39:44 | 2:39:48 | |
who feel it is more important for
them, but I feel that the | 2:39:48 | 2:39:54 | |
independent route will be the one
routinely used, and if anyone raises | 2:39:54 | 2:40:01 | |
concerns it will be through the
independent route that it will be | 2:40:01 | 2:40:04 | |
taken. Another feature I found
helpful is the proposal that all our | 2:40:04 | 2:40:08 | |
staff secure... I was quite shocked
there was not that facility | 2:40:08 | 2:40:15 | |
available for members of staff, and
it is essential, given we are going | 2:40:15 | 2:40:19 | |
to go forward with new codes of
behaviour and procedures about | 2:40:19 | 2:40:25 | |
grievance resolving, that the
supporters going to be given to | 2:40:25 | 2:40:28 | |
stuff. I think this is an important
new innovation which I am certain | 2:40:28 | 2:40:33 | |
will be warmly received by members
of staff throughout the House. | 2:40:33 | 2:40:40 | |
It is the concerns about sexual
harassment that led to this group | 2:40:41 | 2:40:43 | |
being set up will stop in a report
we recognised that sexual harassment | 2:40:43 | 2:40:49 | |
is for the bleak different to other
forms of inappropriate behaviour and | 2:40:49 | 2:40:54 | |
requires and definitions, deceive
you as. This new confidential steam | 2:40:54 | 2:41:02 | |
will provide practical and emotional
support to any complainant and | 2:41:02 | 2:41:04 | |
respect absolutely that complainants
have confidentiality and have no | 2:41:04 | 2:41:11 | |
obligation to report criminal
offences to the police although they | 2:41:11 | 2:41:13 | |
will be supported if they feel it is
appropriate to do so. All reports | 2:41:13 | 2:41:18 | |
will be handled by a specialist
independent sexual violence adviser | 2:41:18 | 2:41:24 | |
who will be a single point of
contact throughout the seedings and | 2:41:24 | 2:41:27 | |
I think the way this has been
designed will give confidence to | 2:41:27 | 2:41:30 | |
anybody who wants to bring forward
and respect confidentiality and the | 2:41:30 | 2:41:36 | |
proper road mapping of how
complaints are going to be conducted | 2:41:36 | 2:41:39 | |
and progressed. Sanctions are
important. I was disappointed when | 2:41:39 | 2:41:46 | |
over Christmas a draft report was
leaked to the press and the way that | 2:41:46 | 2:41:52 | |
the press sought to portray present
this was nothing overdone and | 2:41:52 | 2:41:56 | |
apology that slap on the wrist that
members if they were found to be | 2:41:56 | 2:42:02 | |
guilty in respect of any
transgression committed, but there | 2:42:02 | 2:42:05 | |
was never anything of the sort. We
have put forward a range of | 2:42:05 | 2:42:09 | |
sanctions which will be in place
from resolution dispute resolving | 2:42:09 | 2:42:14 | |
where there might be necessary for
an apology but it goes on and | 2:42:14 | 2:42:20 | |
includes right up to the possibility
of recall of an MP and expulsion of | 2:42:20 | 2:42:26 | |
a member from the House of Lords and
the full range of sanctions is | 2:42:26 | 2:42:30 | |
included in the report. Lastly I
want to talk about the culture of | 2:42:30 | 2:42:36 | |
that house because this issue has
come up again and again and it is | 2:42:36 | 2:42:40 | |
really important that we have a look
at this. I hate the culture in this | 2:42:40 | 2:42:44 | |
House. I could never been bond of
being in the Commons. I know some of | 2:42:44 | 2:42:49 | |
my friends think it is a fantastic
place to live and work but I was | 2:42:49 | 2:42:53 | |
buying it a little bit
uncomfortable. It is maybe the | 2:42:53 | 2:42:56 | |
Scottish nationalist in me that
creates a little bit, that grew | 2:42:56 | 2:43:01 | |
grapes. This House has a peculiar
historic culture that practically | 2:43:01 | 2:43:06 | |
loses patriarchy and abuse of power.
I had a female friend in the House | 2:43:06 | 2:43:12 | |
just a few months ago and was very
conscious of these issues and she | 2:43:12 | 2:43:15 | |
told me that the portraits in this
place were practically seeming to | 2:43:15 | 2:43:19 | |
harass you because the way the
images are all set up and the | 2:43:19 | 2:43:23 | |
defining feature of this has are
embedded in this historic patriarchy | 2:43:23 | 2:43:28 | |
that we have in this place. Our
workplace is a weird bastion of | 2:43:28 | 2:43:32 | |
privilege where we call friends and
strangers and the legislation is | 2:43:32 | 2:43:39 | |
designed in a sea of blues with the
bar is that we have and the... He is | 2:43:39 | 2:43:49 | |
making a good point about the sea of
alcohol in this place and witty | 2:43:49 | 2:43:54 | |
share my concerns, I was in an event
at one o'clock this afternoon and | 2:43:54 | 2:43:59 | |
wine was being served, does he
consider the appropriate? I am | 2:43:59 | 2:44:04 | |
grateful for her to raising this, I
want to come evidence that is | 2:44:04 | 2:44:09 | |
compelling that we came across and
that is from Sarah child who -- | 2:44:09 | 2:44:14 | |
Sarah Giles. A fantastic report that
somehow got to the part about how | 2:44:14 | 2:44:20 | |
this plays does business, the
environment we work and made some | 2:44:20 | 2:44:27 | |
practical suggestions about how this
is, don't try to suggest to me that | 2:44:27 | 2:44:34 | |
it is good working practice, that it
allows people getting home to their | 2:44:34 | 2:44:41 | |
families, it is nonsense, we do it
because we are committed to doing | 2:44:41 | 2:44:46 | |
it, I don't think anybody would
convince me that this would be good | 2:44:46 | 2:44:49 | |
practice. Dates back to the example
of this place, we should lead the | 2:44:49 | 2:44:55 | |
way in terms of good normal working
practice. In Scotland we have | 2:44:55 | 2:44:59 | |
designed our Parliament round the
normal working day and if we should | 2:44:59 | 2:45:01 | |
do it so could we, as we go forward
I think we will continue to engage | 2:45:01 | 2:45:07 | |
the work of Sarah, I couldn't
commend her report another when it | 2:45:07 | 2:45:10 | |
comes to having a look at the
culture and environment of this | 2:45:10 | 2:45:13 | |
place. I think the member but giving
way and he is making some very | 2:45:13 | 2:45:21 | |
powerful points. With the number of
me that everyone in this chamber, we | 2:45:21 | 2:45:26 | |
are here today are very important
job and responsible job, we are | 2:45:26 | 2:45:30 | |
making the laws which dictate and
set the parameters for people right | 2:45:30 | 2:45:35 | |
across the United Kingdom and is the
knot at the very heart of this we | 2:45:35 | 2:45:39 | |
can talk about the culture and
environment and the bars, but there | 2:45:39 | 2:45:44 | |
is an important issue about personal
responsibility, the individuals | 2:45:44 | 2:45:47 | |
across all of the parties should
know better, take personal | 2:45:47 | 2:45:52 | |
responsibility and should act in an
appropriate and respectful way to | 2:45:52 | 2:45:56 | |
everybody regardless of the working
hours and regardless of the bars and | 2:45:56 | 2:45:58 | |
the restaurants. I must take that as
a personal chastisement. Sometimes | 2:45:58 | 2:46:10 | |
enjoy a pint of the guest ales in
the strangers bar. The honourable | 2:46:10 | 2:46:16 | |
lady is right, it is all about
personal behaviour but we have an | 2:46:16 | 2:46:19 | |
unusual workplace. I don't know any
other Mac workplace in my | 2:46:19 | 2:46:23 | |
constituency which would have six
buyers as a feature of its normal | 2:46:23 | 2:46:27 | |
business, I think we have to
recognise that because of the way | 2:46:27 | 2:46:31 | |
this is setup, the way the whole
designed it can lead to difficult | 2:46:31 | 2:46:35 | |
issues and we begin to see in the
course the past year, the member per | 2:46:35 | 2:46:40 | |
Essex and Harwich and West Essex
remembered how historically we got | 2:46:40 | 2:46:43 | |
to this place but it is a little to
do with how this is as had been | 2:46:43 | 2:46:49 | |
constricted and designed in the way
we do business so I think all these | 2:46:49 | 2:46:52 | |
things are perhaps, I am glad I had
got onto this because you mentioned | 2:46:52 | 2:46:56 | |
training in his contribution and we
spent hours and hours discussing the | 2:46:56 | 2:47:01 | |
issue of training and I think we got
to a reasonable place where a | 2:47:01 | 2:47:05 | |
consensual view started to emerge
about how we should report this in | 2:47:05 | 2:47:09 | |
the working group report. I am of
the view that the should be | 2:47:09 | 2:47:13 | |
compulsory training and I actually
supported the idea that they would | 2:47:13 | 2:47:17 | |
be a kitemark given to members of
Parliament who have been the | 2:47:17 | 2:47:22 | |
training, members of staff who are
looking round about who they should | 2:47:22 | 2:47:26 | |
work for will see a kitemark
attached to a member of parliament | 2:47:26 | 2:47:28 | |
knowing they had been through
training and they would have a | 2:47:28 | 2:47:33 | |
better expectation of a good
workplace environment as opposed to | 2:47:33 | 2:47:36 | |
somebody who rejects draining out of
hand and weather might be issues, as | 2:47:36 | 2:47:43 | |
figure was a good suggestion I
couldn't convince the House. It | 2:47:43 | 2:47:45 | |
actually came from the staff
represented on the group. I think as | 2:47:45 | 2:47:50 | |
a way forward, training would be
mandatory for new members of | 2:47:50 | 2:47:56 | |
Parliament, the honourable gentleman
makes a good point. Most members of | 2:47:56 | 2:48:00 | |
parliament here have never been
employed as before. I was never an | 2:48:00 | 2:48:02 | |
employer. Those of us who come from
a more modest background when it | 2:48:02 | 2:48:12 | |
comes to these issues are perhaps
never been employers before. I | 2:48:12 | 2:48:15 | |
didn't know how to manage staff. He
had to learn through experience and | 2:48:15 | 2:48:19 | |
do it on the job. I think there is
something really helpful and useful | 2:48:19 | 2:48:23 | |
about being given that training, not
just about issues to do with quality | 2:48:23 | 2:48:28 | |
but issues to do with out to be a
good employer and I think there is | 2:48:28 | 2:48:31 | |
nothing wrong with that and they
welcome the recommendation that in | 2:48:31 | 2:48:34 | |
the next Parliament members will be
obliged to go through training. | 2:48:34 | 2:48:40 | |
Sometimes the people who will rush
to go to training who are those of | 2:48:40 | 2:48:42 | |
us who are interested and I have no
issue about taking training and I | 2:48:42 | 2:48:47 | |
look forward to it but is how about
how we dragged the old dinosaurs and | 2:48:47 | 2:48:51 | |
those who have a more traditional
view of the workplace environment | 2:48:51 | 2:48:55 | |
that might go to influence some of
their approaches to play members of | 2:48:55 | 2:48:58 | |
staff and it is how we get them and
maybe that kitemark issue would be | 2:48:58 | 2:49:01 | |
the way that divides people who are
prepared to have important quality | 2:49:01 | 2:49:06 | |
planning... I think he may, to
encourage them because I know we | 2:49:06 | 2:49:13 | |
have been so many draft of this
report on this issue but the good | 2:49:13 | 2:49:17 | |
employer standard idea is is in
paragraph 81 and 79 and I was very | 2:49:17 | 2:49:23 | |
happy we did get to the place of
saying until such time training is | 2:49:23 | 2:49:28 | |
mandatory, records will be publicly
available which might help focus | 2:49:28 | 2:49:32 | |
minds before compulsion is actually
there. There is a kitemark related | 2:49:32 | 2:49:39 | |
issue, may be slightly different to
what was eventually agreed but they | 2:49:39 | 2:49:42 | |
do accept that. I think it is a
welcome addition to this report. | 2:49:42 | 2:49:50 | |
This is a really important report
and I think it was certainly worth | 2:49:50 | 2:49:57 | |
spending 100 hours in the course of
those last few months and I see this | 2:49:57 | 2:50:01 | |
as being more than just a report for
this House, a think this could be a | 2:50:01 | 2:50:05 | |
blueprint for complex workplaces red
Prosser country and possibly be the | 2:50:05 | 2:50:11 | |
start -- right across the workplace
and the culture of this place. There | 2:50:11 | 2:50:17 | |
is no going back. I will give way. I
thank him very much. I am fascinated | 2:50:17 | 2:50:23 | |
by his remarks on training and I
agree with about 99% of what he is | 2:50:23 | 2:50:29 | |
saying but I wonder if he could
comment further for us on what his | 2:50:29 | 2:50:32 | |
thoughts about when training is
being taken how often people should | 2:50:32 | 2:50:36 | |
renew and undergo that training
because we all know that workplaces | 2:50:36 | 2:50:40 | |
change very fast and legislation
changes faster was considered | 2:50:40 | 2:50:43 | |
acceptable maybe ten or 15 ago isn't
any more and I would be interested | 2:50:43 | 2:50:46 | |
in those comments. It is not
something we consider and she is | 2:50:46 | 2:50:52 | |
right that such is the fast changing
and evolving workplace environment | 2:50:52 | 2:50:56 | |
that the should be a requirement for
people to come back and refreshed | 2:50:56 | 2:50:59 | |
because we are seeing new
innovations and I look at colleagues | 2:50:59 | 2:51:03 | |
and I can see any real objection to
that and I think as we go forward it | 2:51:03 | 2:51:08 | |
might be something we consider as we
do a bold with this report. I will | 2:51:08 | 2:51:12 | |
give way. Surely if we look outside
this place, along with almost every | 2:51:12 | 2:51:20 | |
other industry, there is something
called continual professional | 2:51:20 | 2:51:22 | |
development and of the dinosaurs
don't like being dragged into that | 2:51:22 | 2:51:24 | |
they know what the alternative is. A
useful contribution. My workplace | 2:51:24 | 2:51:30 | |
background was in a rock band so I
am not all that familiar with some | 2:51:30 | 2:51:34 | |
of the things that maybe have gone
on in an industry before but I will | 2:51:34 | 2:51:38 | |
take lessons from the honourable
gentleman who nobody what he is | 2:51:38 | 2:51:40 | |
talking about. I will conclude --
who seems to know what you're | 2:51:40 | 2:51:45 | |
talking about. This is a helpful and
worthwhile document. I believe there | 2:51:45 | 2:51:48 | |
is no going back in the quest for
equality. We have reached the | 2:51:48 | 2:51:52 | |
defining point last year when all
these issues starting to emerge in | 2:51:52 | 2:51:58 | |
the range of societal campaigns
online, people who just decided they | 2:51:58 | 2:52:03 | |
had had enough, there is no going
back and I hope that this report | 2:52:03 | 2:52:09 | |
were maybe mark the beginning of the
end of some of the horrible and | 2:52:09 | 2:52:14 | |
appalling practices we have seen in
this House over the years. I am | 2:52:14 | 2:52:20 | |
grateful, it is a great pleasure to
follow the honourable gentleman in a | 2:52:20 | 2:52:23 | |
more reflective mood and sometimes
displays and has, as I think if it's | 2:52:23 | 2:52:30 | |
the serious subject matter and he
dealt with it very seriously and | 2:52:30 | 2:52:35 | |
that is a great pleasure to follow
his comments. I also want to admire | 2:52:35 | 2:52:41 | |
support -- add my support to the
motion that the leader mood that is | 2:52:41 | 2:52:44 | |
before us and they report that backs
it up and the proposals. I just had | 2:52:44 | 2:52:49 | |
a few things I wanted to add to the
debate. Several colleagues have | 2:52:49 | 2:52:54 | |
referenced the events of last year
that triggered this particular set | 2:52:54 | 2:52:59 | |
of proposals and work but I just
want to put on record that actually | 2:52:59 | 2:53:06 | |
when I became government Chief Whip
in 2015, shortly after that there | 2:53:06 | 2:53:11 | |
were a number of issues and has and
this was an area of work which I had | 2:53:11 | 2:53:17 | |
started in training on a cross-party
basis working with all the parties | 2:53:17 | 2:53:22 | |
in the House looking to see if we
could improve the way this has dealt | 2:53:22 | 2:53:25 | |
with some of these issues. Initially
parties obviously have their own | 2:53:25 | 2:53:31 | |
processes and for various reasons
they don't command the confidence, I | 2:53:31 | 2:53:37 | |
think either of members and I think
members of my party weren't entirely | 2:53:37 | 2:53:41 | |
comfortable processes that were
controlled by political parties, and | 2:53:41 | 2:53:46 | |
I think that was also the view that
was expressed by people who worked | 2:53:46 | 2:53:50 | |
in the House and those outside they
didn't the confidence that a party | 2:53:50 | 2:53:56 | |
run process even if it was a
fantastic process it simply wouldn't | 2:53:56 | 2:53:59 | |
have commanded the confidence and it
was very clear from the views that | 2:53:59 | 2:54:03 | |
were expressed to me both by
colleagues, the conversations I had | 2:54:03 | 2:54:07 | |
with members of other parties, and
indeed the representatives of | 2:54:07 | 2:54:12 | |
members of our staff that came to
see me, but a house process covering | 2:54:12 | 2:54:18 | |
all members of Parliament on a
cross-party basis would be the best | 2:54:18 | 2:54:23 | |
way of proceeding and we started, Mr
Deputy Speaker, to set some of those | 2:54:23 | 2:54:30 | |
processes in train and it was to my
disappointment that the European | 2:54:30 | 2:54:36 | |
Union referendum intervened and
terminated the career of David | 2:54:36 | 2:54:40 | |
Cameron and indeed myself in
government and we weren't able to | 2:54:40 | 2:54:43 | |
bring those processes to fruition,
so I was actually very pleased, I | 2:54:43 | 2:54:50 | |
wasn't pleased about why the leader
of the House had to put these | 2:54:50 | 2:54:53 | |
processes in place but I was very
pleased that she responded so | 2:54:53 | 2:54:57 | |
strongly to the events that took
place last year. Both in parliament | 2:54:57 | 2:55:02 | |
and outside it and actually put
those processes and train and I was | 2:55:02 | 2:55:08 | |
pleased it was done on a cross-party
basis and I was pleased that all the | 2:55:08 | 2:55:11 | |
parties took part in the process and
we have come up with the | 2:55:11 | 2:55:15 | |
comprehensive report which I have
taken the trouble to study and I | 2:55:15 | 2:55:19 | |
think that would be a step forward. | 2:55:19 | 2:55:31 | |
I would like to thank the honourable
member for gold Ford, who served as | 2:55:31 | 2:55:35 | |
my executive, and working with me,
she led many of these issues as part | 2:55:35 | 2:55:41 | |
of the office. -- the honourable
member for Gilford. Colleagues on | 2:55:41 | 2:55:44 | |
this side of the House and the other
side know | 2:55:44 | 2:55:56 | |
that... She made it clear how
strongly she takes these matters, | 2:56:02 | 2:56:06 | |
and I wanted to make sure it was on
the record that my banks were | 2:56:06 | 2:56:14 | |
expressed for her efforts when she
was deputy Chief Whip. Although it | 2:56:14 | 2:56:18 | |
is clear from the things that have
been talked about publicly and the | 2:56:18 | 2:56:22 | |
responses to the survey that the
honourable member mentioned, | 2:56:22 | 2:56:27 | |
bullying and harassment affects all
members of staff. It is indeed the | 2:56:27 | 2:56:34 | |
case that it does affect female
members of staff more severely than | 2:56:34 | 2:56:42 | |
others, and if we are to get more
women to be members of Parliament | 2:56:42 | 2:56:47 | |
and work in this House and be
treated as equals in dealing with | 2:56:47 | 2:56:52 | |
this is incredibly important, but
we're working to try to get more | 2:56:52 | 2:57:05 | |
female members of conservative, and
I am behind this because I think it | 2:57:05 | 2:57:09 | |
will have that effect. I wanted to
talk about furnace. When the report | 2:57:09 | 2:57:13 | |
was first produced, there was some
comment outside the House. -- about | 2:57:13 | 2:57:18 | |
fairness. There was some comment
about how the proposals mean the | 2:57:18 | 2:57:28 | |
investigations take place in private
without everything being published, | 2:57:28 | 2:57:32 | |
but I think that is like most
workplaces. In most places when | 2:57:32 | 2:57:38 | |
someone makes a complaint about
another employee, in the workplace | 2:57:38 | 2:57:40 | |
the matters are not published in
national newspapers, and I always | 2:57:40 | 2:57:45 | |
thought in this House that it was
true when we were going through the | 2:57:45 | 2:57:48 | |
difficulties on expenses but a good
test for members of Parliament is | 2:57:48 | 2:57:52 | |
for us to be judged at least by the
standards we expect of everyone | 2:57:52 | 2:57:59 | |
else, so the processes that would be
used for us to deal with complaints | 2:57:59 | 2:58:05 | |
about bullying and harassment should
be the same processes exist in | 2:58:05 | 2:58:11 | |
up-to-the-minute workplaces, and
those are ones you would not expect | 2:58:11 | 2:58:16 | |
everything to be published in a
national newspaper, but I do welcome | 2:58:16 | 2:58:21 | |
the fact it refers in the report to
the fact you have to recognise that | 2:58:21 | 2:58:25 | |
sometimes when there are examples
bullying and harassment, there | 2:58:25 | 2:58:30 | |
patterns of behaviour and sometimes
people need the confidence to come | 2:58:30 | 2:58:41 | |
forward, and sometimes it is only
when people are aware that there is | 2:58:41 | 2:58:43 | |
an issue with someone's behaviour
that they are willing to come | 2:58:43 | 2:58:47 | |
forward. It is a difficult balance
to get right, to protect the | 2:58:47 | 2:58:54 | |
confidentiality and those who might
be unfairly accused, but also for | 2:58:54 | 2:58:58 | |
members of Parliament, we employ
large numbers of staff, and if a | 2:58:58 | 2:59:03 | |
member of Parliament has a complaint
made against them and they are | 2:59:03 | 2:59:07 | |
identified, it would not be
difficult for newspapers to identify | 2:59:07 | 2:59:10 | |
which of the members of staff had
probably made the complaint, so | 2:59:10 | 2:59:15 | |
having a disciplinary process... It
is not helpful. The report is very | 2:59:15 | 2:59:27 | |
welcome. I wanted to say something
in response to what the honourable | 2:59:27 | 2:59:32 | |
member said about the standards
committee, I do think that her issue | 2:59:32 | 2:59:37 | |
about marking our own homework would
have been a reasonable point before | 2:59:37 | 2:59:44 | |
lay members were added to the
standards committee, but I think for | 2:59:44 | 2:59:47 | |
members of the public, the fact that
they are utterly members on the | 2:59:47 | 2:59:52 | |
standards committee should give them
the confidence that the members of | 2:59:52 | 2:59:55 | |
Parliament on the standards
committee cannot just decide things | 2:59:55 | 3:00:01 | |
by standards they consider
appropriate, and it is important | 3:00:01 | 3:00:07 | |
they bring an outside valuable
perspective. I am not 100% sure of | 3:00:07 | 3:00:14 | |
my facts, but I am sure the lay
members do not actually thought, so | 3:00:14 | 3:00:18 | |
although I would agree that it is a
great step forward that there are | 3:00:18 | 3:00:22 | |
there, I have concerns that it will
be MPs who are seen to be voting on | 3:00:22 | 3:00:26 | |
the colleagues, even if we have had
an independent and good procedure | 3:00:26 | 3:00:31 | |
until that point, I still think it
is a weakness. If you are talking | 3:00:31 | 3:00:36 | |
about a serious sanction, and if we
were talking about expelling the | 3:00:36 | 3:00:43 | |
member of Parliament or suspending
them for a period where conditions | 3:00:43 | 3:00:47 | |
would kick in, that is a decision
for the House, not the standards | 3:00:47 | 3:00:54 | |
committee. The House would be
furnished with a report from the | 3:00:54 | 3:00:58 | |
parliamentary commissioner, and the
report of the standards committee, | 3:00:58 | 3:01:01 | |
and I think the change that was very
valuable when we introduced lay | 3:01:01 | 3:01:05 | |
members was members of the House
would be aware that even if the | 3:01:05 | 3:01:10 | |
member of Parliament on the
committee had had a view, the lay | 3:01:10 | 3:01:14 | |
members are able to have their views
expressed in my report of the | 3:01:14 | 3:01:19 | |
committee, and I see the chairman of
the committee I think was nodding to | 3:01:19 | 3:01:22 | |
that. Let me just complete the point
and I will give way. | 3:01:22 | 3:01:36 | |
So it is not just the views of
members of Parliament going before | 3:01:36 | 3:01:40 | |
the House, it is the views of the
lake committee, so that can affect | 3:01:40 | 3:01:46 | |
our views of what is and is not
acceptable. He is right that lay | 3:01:46 | 3:01:53 | |
members present when decisions are
made gives the standards committee | 3:01:53 | 3:01:56 | |
more authority, but there is
something odd about the committee | 3:01:56 | 3:02:04 | |
itself adjudicating about rules and
evidence when that is something that | 3:02:04 | 3:02:10 | |
should be done by a lawyer. | 3:02:10 | 3:02:21 | |
To be told, this is the judgment,
and if you overturn it your | 3:02:26 | 3:02:31 | |
overturning a respectable opinion,
on your head be it. I listen to do | 3:02:31 | 3:02:36 | |
what he says, and I put a fair bit
of weight on it given that he chairs | 3:02:36 | 3:02:41 | |
the committee, I do not entirely
agree, though. I have taken the | 3:02:41 | 3:02:44 | |
trouble over the years with
standards committee reports, | 3:02:44 | 3:02:49 | |
particularly serious ones and to
read the report of the parliamentary | 3:02:49 | 3:02:57 | |
commissioner, and the thing that
always struck me, I have often | 3:02:57 | 3:03:04 | |
looked at how thorough the
parliamentary commissioner has | 3:03:04 | 3:03:06 | |
looked into, particularly serious
allegations, and I have often | 3:03:06 | 3:03:11 | |
thought to myself, if you were ever
tempted not to uphold the standards | 3:03:11 | 3:03:16 | |
of behaviour, you would not want to
be subject to that level of scrutiny | 3:03:16 | 3:03:22 | |
because it is fairly exacting. I do
not know how many people have looked | 3:03:22 | 3:03:28 | |
at this, but it has been looked at
in some considerable detail. The | 3:03:28 | 3:03:34 | |
report put before the committee are
far and detailed, and when I have | 3:03:34 | 3:03:46 | |
read the reports of the committee on
standards, I have felt that they | 3:03:46 | 3:03:50 | |
have been very balanced, tough and
fear, and it is not clear when you | 3:03:50 | 3:03:55 | |
read the reports of any bias coming
into them from a particular party | 3:03:55 | 3:04:03 | |
view of members of Parliament, I
have always got the system is pretty | 3:04:03 | 3:04:07 | |
good. I think the only gap was
rectified by the addition of lay | 3:04:07 | 3:04:24 | |
members I had a situation where
there was one view, but the judge in | 3:04:34 | 3:04:40 | |
court give a much harsher view,
which completely undermines the | 3:04:40 | 3:04:43 | |
authority of the system | 3:04:43 | 3:04:54 | |
we have. I do not entirely agree,
but I do not want to deviate from | 3:04:58 | 3:05:03 | |
the debate on this into a wider
debate about standards. My final | 3:05:03 | 3:05:08 | |
point was actually about training
and culture. I think the Member for | 3:05:08 | 3:05:18 | |
Perth made a sensible point when he
spoke about the backgrounds of | 3:05:18 | 3:05:22 | |
members of Parliament. I will pick
up slightly on his comments about | 3:05:22 | 3:05:32 | |
assuming everyone on this side has a
privileged background, which is not | 3:05:32 | 3:05:37 | |
true, and I will not or him with the
fact I was the first person to go to | 3:05:37 | 3:05:43 | |
university and my father was a
labourer, and we have not had any | 3:05:43 | 3:05:46 | |
members of parliament in the family
before. He makes a sensible point | 3:05:46 | 3:05:54 | |
that members of Parliament have a
very varied set of backgrounds. Some | 3:05:54 | 3:05:59 | |
of us have employed significant
amounts of people, some will have | 3:05:59 | 3:06:04 | |
worked in a business grabbers, and
experience of management teams, and | 3:06:04 | 3:06:10 | |
others will have come -- in a
business for others, and experience | 3:06:10 | 3:06:18 | |
of management teams, others will
have come in without that | 3:06:18 | 3:06:20 | |
experience. Often mistakes are made
not because of ill intent, but as my | 3:06:20 | 3:06:30 | |
honourable friend said, members come
with the best of intentions, but | 3:06:30 | 3:06:35 | |
often do not have the skills, but it
is about the expectations you have, | 3:06:35 | 3:06:48 | |
and managing HR supports you can be
better trained and better supported, | 3:06:48 | 3:06:51 | |
but you also have to have someone to
ask -- you also have someone to ask | 3:06:51 | 3:06:55 | |
questions that they are challenging
issues you're not comfortable | 3:06:55 | 3:06:57 | |
dealing with, I think that is very
valuable. I welcome the training in | 3:06:57 | 3:07:07 | |
part of the induction process for
new members of Parliament, and I do | 3:07:07 | 3:07:11 | |
not think there was a massive gap
between the honourable lady and my | 3:07:11 | 3:07:16 | |
honourable friend, I do think
everyone should go through the | 3:07:16 | 3:07:20 | |
training, but the challenge is this,
you can mandate that everyone goes | 3:07:20 | 3:07:24 | |
through a training course, but you
cannot mandate that the people who | 3:07:24 | 3:07:32 | |
turn up will listen attentively and
change their behaviour having | 3:07:32 | 3:07:35 | |
attended the training, and it seems
to me that the people least likely | 3:07:35 | 3:07:40 | |
to go to the training of those most
in need of it, so the challenge is | 3:07:40 | 3:07:45 | |
to do what the honourable lady said,
which is to persuade people that | 3:07:45 | 3:07:52 | |
they should go on the training and
listen to the training, change their | 3:07:52 | 3:07:56 | |
behaviour. I do think the proposals
set out about publicising whether | 3:07:56 | 3:08:03 | |
people have been on the training, so
the is peer pressure that people | 3:08:03 | 3:08:07 | |
feel they should go, and the staff
they might want to hire puts | 3:08:07 | 3:08:14 | |
pressure on them is a good sign, but
for new members of parliament, it | 3:08:14 | 3:08:18 | |
should be the standard set of
training that every Parliament | 3:08:18 | 3:08:23 | |
undertakes solely undertake the
expectations correctly. That leads | 3:08:23 | 3:08:29 | |
to my second half of the point,
which is about the culture of this | 3:08:29 | 3:08:32 | |
place. On the debates we have had, I
was perhaps fortunate in having | 3:08:32 | 3:08:46 | |
worked for two businesses which took
management and how they treated | 3:08:46 | 3:08:49 | |
their people very seriously, and I
went on training courses about how | 3:08:49 | 3:08:53 | |
you manage people, how you set
expectations and what was expected, | 3:08:53 | 3:08:57 | |
and staff members were empowered to
speak up and it was recognised | 3:08:57 | 3:09:05 | |
speaking up was the right thing to
do about a range of issues, whether | 3:09:05 | 3:09:09 | |
it was about how they ran the
business or behaved, and that set | 3:09:09 | 3:09:14 | |
the right sort of culture. That is
not always the case. I was thinking | 3:09:14 | 3:09:18 | |
through some of the things that have
happened over the last few months, | 3:09:18 | 3:09:23 | |
and there have been examples of
behaviour, and people have said | 3:09:23 | 3:09:28 | |
things like, this sort of behaviour
was acceptable a few years ago, and | 3:09:28 | 3:09:32 | |
things seem to have changed. I was
thinking back to when I started my | 3:09:32 | 3:09:37 | |
working life when I left university,
which tragically is a lot longer ago | 3:09:37 | 3:09:41 | |
than I care to remember, 1991, and I
was thinking through some of the | 3:09:41 | 3:09:48 | |
specific examples we have read
about, whether it is members of this | 3:09:48 | 3:09:51 | |
House or outside, and you have heard
people say that this sort of | 3:09:51 | 3:09:56 | |
behaviour used to be acceptable, and
I got back to when I started 27 | 3:09:56 | 3:10:02 | |
years ago, and all sort of things
were not acceptable 27 years ago. | 3:10:02 | 3:10:06 | |
The difference was that 27 years ago
and more recently, people used to | 3:10:06 | 3:10:10 | |
get away with behaving like that.
The thing that has changed is not | 3:10:10 | 3:10:15 | |
that the behaviours are no longer
acceptable, actually they never wear | 3:10:15 | 3:10:19 | |
acceptable, the difference now is
people cannot get away with them, | 3:10:19 | 3:10:25 | |
which is right, and that is an
improvement. What we are trying to | 3:10:25 | 3:10:29 | |
deliver with the training and the
change of culture is that everyone | 3:10:29 | 3:10:32 | |
accepts that not only are those sort
of behaviour is not acceptable, no | 3:10:32 | 3:10:37 | |
one is going to let them get away
with it. | 3:10:37 | 3:10:53 | |
It changes the culture it will have
taken a huge step forward. I am very | 3:10:53 | 3:10:58 | |
happy to support the motion. And
coming into the House. Can I just | 3:10:58 | 3:11:04 | |
say I still want to make sure that
we get equal time. We are going to | 3:11:04 | 3:11:08 | |
20 26. If we all work for about ten
minutes. It will be very helpful. | 3:11:08 | 3:11:14 | |
Could I first of all say that the
Committee on Standards has discussed | 3:11:14 | 3:11:22 | |
the report and authorised me to
write to the Leader of the House | 3:11:22 | 3:11:26 | |
setting up their unanimous views
that the committee welcomes the | 3:11:26 | 3:11:31 | |
report strongly. It supports its
commitment to zero tolerance on | 3:11:31 | 3:11:38 | |
sexual harassment, bullying and
harassment in the Parliamentary | 3:11:38 | 3:11:42 | |
community. Members will have seen...
A member of a table that was signed | 3:11:42 | 3:11:51 | |
by all that people. We were a little
surprised, I have to say not to have | 3:11:51 | 3:12:03 | |
been mentioned in the motion. Could
I say to the Leader of the House, | 3:12:03 | 3:12:14 | |
I'm sure I could say this on behalf
of all members of the committee, I | 3:12:14 | 3:12:18 | |
welcomed what was said earlier in
relation to the Standards Committee | 3:12:18 | 3:12:23 | |
and the Parliamentary commission
being involved in future work. The | 3:12:23 | 3:12:29 | |
House ought to take note that we are
currently performing a long planned | 3:12:29 | 3:12:33 | |
review of the code of conduct which
will be announced in due course. | 3:12:33 | 3:12:38 | |
Obviously the current review will be
informed by the working groups | 3:12:38 | 3:12:41 | |
report. As members have said, the
committee is unique in that it | 3:12:41 | 3:12:50 | |
contains lay members. Can I just
react to one or two exchanges that | 3:12:50 | 3:12:58 | |
have taken place? It is true to say
that the lay members are not allowed | 3:12:58 | 3:13:01 | |
to vote. It was the wish of this
House. My understanding is that this | 3:13:01 | 3:13:12 | |
House did not want to bring the law
inside this House and its | 3:13:12 | 3:13:17 | |
committees. The honourable member
for North Essex are talking about | 3:13:17 | 3:13:23 | |
printing the law and peered that
would be a big step as I understand | 3:13:23 | 3:13:27 | |
it. I'll get you in a minute. The
reason that the lay members have not | 3:13:27 | 3:13:32 | |
been involved is because I
understood we were advised that we | 3:13:32 | 3:13:35 | |
could not take them on without
breaking the law into the committee | 3:13:35 | 3:13:40 | |
system. I still think if we are
going to legislate in any state,... | 3:13:40 | 3:13:44 | |
I'm going to give way, but just let
me say this. I don't understand that | 3:13:44 | 3:13:50 | |
Casey talked about there. About the
judge taking a hard line on the case | 3:13:50 | 3:13:56 | |
and what the committee did. We don't
get involved in taking our | 3:13:56 | 3:14:01 | |
judgements in terms of the law. The
law is a completely different | 3:14:01 | 3:14:04 | |
process. From time to time, we will
send members there if it is felt | 3:14:04 | 3:14:08 | |
that it is a matter for the law. I
will give way. I am grateful to the | 3:14:08 | 3:14:15 | |
honourable gentleman for giving way.
I'm not going to name the case I was | 3:14:15 | 3:14:21 | |
referring to because it is too
tiresome. It was a case where the | 3:14:21 | 3:14:25 | |
committee adjudicated on someone who
then tried to make the same case in | 3:14:25 | 3:14:29 | |
a court of law under a completely
separate jurisdiction, he lost his | 3:14:29 | 3:14:34 | |
case and he was criticised. The
point is, these proposals is not | 3:14:34 | 3:14:44 | |
about bringing the judiciary into
our own proceedings. It is not about | 3:14:44 | 3:14:48 | |
that. It is about the House of
pointing our own legal person to | 3:14:48 | 3:14:53 | |
make these adjudications on behalf
of the House, on behalf of this | 3:14:53 | 3:14:56 | |
committee so that he has a far more
unimpeachable judgement handed to | 3:14:56 | 3:15:01 | |
his committee on which to act then
what he is compelled to work with at | 3:15:01 | 3:15:06 | |
the moment. I think I know the case
with the honourable member talks | 3:15:06 | 3:15:12 | |
about now. He did not agree with
what happened with him and he went | 3:15:12 | 3:15:15 | |
to the courts and got nowhere with
it. In that respective if it's a | 3:15:15 | 3:15:20 | |
case that I'm thinking about, the
court agrees with what the committee | 3:15:20 | 3:15:24 | |
had said. Anyway, the current system
is a series of merely reactive | 3:15:24 | 3:15:33 | |
measures. Initially this scandal in
the 1990s. It was arguably skewed | 3:15:33 | 3:15:46 | |
too much towards the issues of
financial impropriety. Important as | 3:15:46 | 3:15:52 | |
they are. It neglects other aspects
of members's conduct in their | 3:15:52 | 3:15:57 | |
behaviour towards other people.
Would he consider financial | 3:15:57 | 3:16:06 | |
impropriety, but the challenge that
we face moving forward in for | 3:16:06 | 3:16:10 | |
finding the balance between the
personal life of members and when | 3:16:10 | 3:16:14 | |
actually conducting their
Parliamentary duties, particularly | 3:16:14 | 3:16:17 | |
in relation to sexual harassment.
Does he foresee any questions about | 3:16:17 | 3:16:20 | |
that and the way we implement
policies? I think that is the issue | 3:16:20 | 3:16:25 | |
that has to be looked at. I think
the honourable member was there when | 3:16:25 | 3:16:28 | |
I gave evidence. It was around
October of last year that this House | 3:16:28 | 3:16:34 | |
will have to come to a decision on
what is a personal and private | 3:16:34 | 3:16:39 | |
activity and what is not. That is
something that you may be asked to | 3:16:39 | 3:16:43 | |
do in the coming months. Over the
years, the independent cylinders | 3:16:43 | 3:16:50 | |
commission has done its best to try
to address the imbalance and look at | 3:16:50 | 3:16:55 | |
ways to update the current coat of
paint -- current code of conduct. | 3:16:55 | 3:17:05 | |
The House in the past resisted
attempts to incorporate some of | 3:17:05 | 3:17:08 | |
these changes. But I am glad that
the working groups report has now | 3:17:08 | 3:17:13 | |
given fresh impetus to developing a
new comprehensive system of | 3:17:13 | 3:17:16 | |
standards and behaviours. The
committee contains a pool of | 3:17:16 | 3:17:22 | |
expertise on the part of collected
and lay members which we believe | 3:17:22 | 3:17:26 | |
will be of real value for developing
the new process. We are keen to be | 3:17:26 | 3:17:30 | |
in the system and are in the process
of setting up a meeting with the | 3:17:30 | 3:17:34 | |
Leader of the House to discuss how
we can help. I understand that is | 3:17:34 | 3:17:37 | |
now in the diary, I am pleased to
say. I comment as is inevitable with | 3:17:37 | 3:17:45 | |
such ambitious and far-reaching
proposes, there are a number of | 3:17:45 | 3:17:48 | |
challenges concerning details on
process as well as some issues of | 3:17:48 | 3:17:52 | |
principle which will need to be
addressed as part of the | 3:17:52 | 3:17:55 | |
implementation. My letter sent out
what these are so I will not detain | 3:17:55 | 3:18:00 | |
the House long and summarising them.
We will need to consider how the new | 3:18:00 | 3:18:05 | |
arrangements will work alongside the
existing system. It is crystal that | 3:18:05 | 3:18:09 | |
the new system should be seen to
operate fairly and impartially, due | 3:18:09 | 3:18:14 | |
process is important because it
secures the rights of everyone | 3:18:14 | 3:18:18 | |
involved. One proposal in the report
might proceed in parallel will | 3:18:18 | 3:18:24 | |
police inquiries. This would
represent a clear breach with the | 3:18:24 | 3:18:28 | |
current existing practise which is
set out in a memorandum of | 3:18:28 | 3:18:31 | |
understanding between the committee,
the commissioner and the | 3:18:31 | 3:18:34 | |
Metropolitan Police. And this will
require careful consideration. Also, | 3:18:34 | 3:18:38 | |
the implications of the report
proposals of other anomalies. One of | 3:18:38 | 3:18:48 | |
these is for future discussion. The
six work stream that the Leader of | 3:18:48 | 3:18:53 | |
the House mentioned is going to be
an area that the committee and the | 3:18:53 | 3:18:56 | |
Commissioner are likely to be
involved in. Today I simply want to | 3:18:56 | 3:19:02 | |
express the committee's support for
what is trying to be achieved. And | 3:19:02 | 3:19:06 | |
as for the House that my colleagues
and I and the Commissioner are | 3:19:06 | 3:19:09 | |
committed to working closely with
this group to turn the new system | 3:19:09 | 3:19:13 | |
into a reality as soon as possible.
Could I just finished on this? There | 3:19:13 | 3:19:19 | |
was comment about the lay members
earlier not having a vote in the | 3:19:19 | 3:19:23 | |
committee. It is many years since
there has been a vote in the | 3:19:23 | 3:19:27 | |
committee. We work on the basis of
getting an agreement by all people | 3:19:27 | 3:19:32 | |
in there. But each one of those
seven lay members of the committee | 3:19:32 | 3:19:36 | |
are asked when we create a report if
they have got anything they want to | 3:19:36 | 3:19:42 | |
put down outside of what the report
has come to. That has never happened | 3:19:42 | 3:19:47 | |
yet. They have far more power each
one individually then the seven | 3:19:47 | 3:19:51 | |
elected members have together. And I
hope the House begins to understand | 3:19:51 | 3:19:55 | |
that and stop repeating some of
these remarks that this is a | 3:19:55 | 3:20:00 | |
committee that is murky one
another's homework. It is not. It is | 3:20:00 | 3:20:04 | |
a committee was lay members, we
should be looking at having lay | 3:20:04 | 3:20:07 | |
members on other committees as well.
I have argued for this for many | 3:20:07 | 3:20:11 | |
years before we actually got it. I
served on another council as a lay | 3:20:11 | 3:20:17 | |
member overseeing doctors and
medical professionals. And we should | 3:20:17 | 3:20:23 | |
not be afraid to do that. It is
independent, notwithstanding the | 3:20:23 | 3:20:27 | |
absence of a vote. The question is
that the amendment be made. Thank | 3:20:27 | 3:20:37 | |
you. It is a great privilege and
pleasure to contribute to this | 3:20:37 | 3:20:42 | |
debate to follow the right
honourable gentleman. And all the | 3:20:42 | 3:20:46 | |
contrary the other contributions
that have been made. I have some | 3:20:46 | 3:20:51 | |
short points. I am very lucky to be
elected to record I've are | 3:20:51 | 3:20:58 | |
interested in this debate. This year
women entering into Parliament is | 3:20:58 | 3:21:01 | |
something we want to support and see
more of. I pay tribute to this for | 3:21:01 | 3:21:05 | |
my honourable friend. Also I know
that there are many champions of | 3:21:05 | 3:21:16 | |
women on all sides of the House. Of
course the Member for North Mercer | 3:21:16 | 3:21:23 | |
talked about these issues. I think
that we ought to be proud that we | 3:21:23 | 3:21:30 | |
have a number of incredibly
competent women in this House. I see | 3:21:30 | 3:21:34 | |
them sitting on all sides and are
more than capable of holding their | 3:21:34 | 3:21:38 | |
own despite the patriarchy. It is
important that we signal to other | 3:21:38 | 3:21:42 | |
people who wish to enter this plays
that they are going to be welcomed | 3:21:42 | 3:21:44 | |
when they get here. So, I just want
to touch on the issue of culture. | 3:21:44 | 3:21:51 | |
And my own experience is also from
running my own business. I don't | 3:21:51 | 3:21:55 | |
come from an exotic or privilege
background. I got there from hard | 3:21:55 | 3:21:59 | |
work. By experiencing many failures
and setbacks. It is an misconception | 3:21:59 | 3:22:07 | |
that people who have a business are
somehow privilege. I did learn about | 3:22:07 | 3:22:12 | |
managing teams. And the one thing
that I did learn from a mentor is | 3:22:12 | 3:22:16 | |
that culture eats strategy for
practise. It is about the culture. | 3:22:16 | 3:22:20 | |
It is about the leadership. You can
have as many reports or practises or | 3:22:20 | 3:22:25 | |
training as you want. If that is not
followed through, if that is not | 3:22:25 | 3:22:30 | |
lived and breathed, by deeds not
words, I'm afraid we might as well | 3:22:30 | 3:22:34 | |
all give up go home. I think that
what we have seen is a fantastic | 3:22:34 | 3:22:39 | |
response to this issue and I do pay
to breathe -- I do pay tribute to | 3:22:39 | 3:22:46 | |
everyone who has played their part.
This is a issue that has gone on for | 3:22:46 | 3:22:50 | |
such a long time. It is long
overdue. The bull has been taken by | 3:22:50 | 3:22:55 | |
the horns and I really do hope it
came go up the very highest level of | 3:22:55 | 3:23:01 | |
all political leaders on all sides
of this House. All of us need to | 3:23:01 | 3:23:05 | |
live and breathe it. The reason why
it is so important is because our | 3:23:05 | 3:23:08 | |
staff are very vulnerable. They are
relatively speaking, maybe not all | 3:23:08 | 3:23:13 | |
of them, some of them are quite
young. They don't come from a lot of | 3:23:13 | 3:23:19 | |
experiences of other workplaces. For
some of them it is the first place | 3:23:19 | 3:23:22 | |
they have actually worked. If you
have a young woman, on an older man | 3:23:22 | 3:23:28 | |
or... There is an issue of the
gender imbalance here that is very | 3:23:28 | 3:23:33 | |
sensitive issue. I think that can be
very difficult for a young woman or | 3:23:33 | 3:23:37 | |
a young man in their first job to
tackle that and to have the | 3:23:37 | 3:23:42 | |
confidence to raise that and to know
that it will be taken seriously. I | 3:23:42 | 3:23:47 | |
really do think the consideration
that has been placed on this point. | 3:23:47 | 3:23:52 | |
It goes back to the root of the
issue. The root of the issue is | 3:23:52 | 3:23:55 | |
about power and the abuse of power.
How easily that can be very | 3:23:55 | 3:24:00 | |
detrimental for young people, for
honourable people who are vulnerable | 3:24:00 | 3:24:04 | |
because they are working in this
unique workplace and supporting us | 3:24:04 | 3:24:07 | |
in our challenging duties. I think
we have reduced the issue of | 3:24:07 | 3:24:15 | |
leadership. That is absolutely
critical and essential. I hope we | 3:24:15 | 3:24:20 | |
can all do our part by holding our
colleagues to account in however we | 3:24:20 | 3:24:25 | |
do that. I think this issue of
training needs to be taken forward. | 3:24:25 | 3:24:29 | |
It is not enough to just train once.
I have the great delight of actually | 3:24:29 | 3:24:36 | |
having 2 degrees I worked in HR for
many years and like my honourable | 3:24:36 | 3:24:41 | |
friend, I had a lot of training. I
was asked to the person giving the | 3:24:41 | 3:24:46 | |
training. And I recognise it is one
thing to | 3:24:46 | 3:25:01 | |
Change is difficult organisational
change is really, really hard, to | 3:25:01 | 3:25:05 | |
make it stick. We need to have close
attention to that, we need to be | 3:25:05 | 3:25:10 | |
united in our determination to drive
this through for the benefit of all | 3:25:10 | 3:25:13 | |
the people who work here and all the
people looking at us to be examples. | 3:25:13 | 3:25:18 | |
I end by thanking very much again
for the work that has been done and | 3:25:18 | 3:25:23 | |
hope it'll lead to a change. Jo
Swinson. It's a delight to follow | 3:25:23 | 3:25:28 | |
the honourable member for Redditch,
sounds like she's got some excellent | 3:25:28 | 3:25:32 | |
skills and perspectives that will be
important in the consultation as we | 3:25:32 | 3:25:35 | |
go forward about how to make this
organisational culture change stick. | 3:25:35 | 3:25:39 | |
I very much welcome the motion and
the debate today is a member of the | 3:25:39 | 3:25:44 | |
working group. As well as some
specific comments on what we put in | 3:25:44 | 3:25:48 | |
the report I also wanted to talk
about the wider context that we are | 3:25:48 | 3:25:52 | |
facing here because we've come at
this issue in Parliament from the | 3:25:52 | 3:25:57 | |
events of the end of last year, but
that followed hot on the heels of | 3:25:57 | 3:26:01 | |
the Weinstein scandal, we've had in
recent weeks the issues in the | 3:26:01 | 3:26:05 | |
charity sector. An important point
for us to remember is, this is not a | 3:26:05 | 3:26:09 | |
problem in any one specific
industry, this is a problem that is | 3:26:09 | 3:26:13 | |
endemic across society, across every
sector. And therefore it's important | 3:26:13 | 3:26:18 | |
we get our whole house in order with
our own procedures, but we also need | 3:26:18 | 3:26:23 | |
to understand that wider perspective
on it and that wider societal | 3:26:23 | 3:26:27 | |
cultural change that as parliament
we have a goal in leading. That is | 3:26:27 | 3:26:31 | |
why it's vital what we do is of an
excellent quality, and it can act as | 3:26:31 | 3:26:39 | |
a beacon to other organisations and
institutions that are trying to | 3:26:39 | 3:26:42 | |
grapple with similar issues. For all
that we've seen these cases in | 3:26:42 | 3:26:49 | |
politics hit the headlines, I'm
painfully aware of how many women | 3:26:49 | 3:26:54 | |
are in positions of so much less
power than those connected to this | 3:26:54 | 3:26:58 | |
place, where this doesn't even hit
the headlines, women working low | 3:26:58 | 3:27:02 | |
paid jobs. We saw the briefing for
the young woman's trust saying three | 3:27:02 | 3:27:05 | |
in ten young women have experienced
sexual harassment at work. This is | 3:27:05 | 3:27:11 | |
something happening all over the
country. The working group was | 3:27:11 | 3:27:16 | |
generally positive, and occasionally
frustrating experience, but partly | 3:27:16 | 3:27:19 | |
because we were grappling with
difficult issues. I'd like to praise | 3:27:19 | 3:27:22 | |
the contribution of the staff,
particularly the three | 3:27:22 | 3:27:26 | |
representatives of staff who work
for members in the various parties, | 3:27:26 | 3:27:30 | |
and also the experts that advise the
group. I for one learned a huge | 3:27:30 | 3:27:34 | |
amount from listening to what they
had to offer and in part in terms of | 3:27:34 | 3:27:40 | |
their wisdom. These issues are not
easy to deal with, we all say we | 3:27:40 | 3:27:44 | |
want to deal with this and get it
right but there are sensitive issues | 3:27:44 | 3:27:47 | |
to work through. The Forest of Dean
number talked about the issue of | 3:27:47 | 3:27:53 | |
confidentiality, on the one hand if
names are published that might | 3:27:53 | 3:27:58 | |
encourage others to come forward you
might spot more patterns, but at the | 3:27:58 | 3:28:01 | |
same time, it might discourage
people from coming forward because | 3:28:01 | 3:28:05 | |
of fear their own anonymity will be
breached. We had a lot of | 3:28:05 | 3:28:10 | |
discussions about how you work
through their systems, how you deal | 3:28:10 | 3:28:14 | |
with historical allegations, how you
deal with people who have gone | 3:28:14 | 3:28:16 | |
through a different process and are
very upset with how that went. There | 3:28:16 | 3:28:20 | |
are no easy answers to some of
these. The issue of the interplay | 3:28:20 | 3:28:26 | |
with the criminal justice system we
also discussed at length and while | 3:28:26 | 3:28:29 | |
we want to make sure support is
there for people who want to take a | 3:28:29 | 3:28:34 | |
criminal conviction weather has been
sexual assault, we recognised from | 3:28:34 | 3:28:38 | |
the survey we did that a tiny
proportion of people said in no | 3:28:38 | 3:28:41 | |
circumstances would they feel
comfortable to go to the police, I | 3:28:41 | 3:28:45 | |
think it was 2%. We looked clearly
at how we could provide people with | 3:28:45 | 3:28:49 | |
the support if they wanted to do
that, but also to give them control | 3:28:49 | 3:28:52 | |
so if they wanted this to be pursued
as a grievance, a case of | 3:28:52 | 3:28:57 | |
professional misconduct, it could be
dealt with as unemployment issue | 3:28:57 | 3:29:00 | |
rather than necessarily them being
forced to have faith in the criminal | 3:29:00 | 3:29:04 | |
justice system, which they may not
do. That is why because this is not | 3:29:04 | 3:29:09 | |
easy the review clauses we suggested
are so essential. What we're | 3:29:09 | 3:29:13 | |
proposing today I am very confident
will make things much better. I'm | 3:29:13 | 3:29:19 | |
also confident it won't be perfect
and will only improve if we can | 3:29:19 | 3:29:23 | |
review it regularly, learn from what
works well, but there may well be | 3:29:23 | 3:29:26 | |
cases where it doesn't work well and
we need to be able to make sure we | 3:29:26 | 3:29:29 | |
can take those lessons on board and
not be overly defensive about that. | 3:29:29 | 3:29:33 | |
I also wanted to touch on the issue
of gender. Harassment, bullying, | 3:29:33 | 3:29:40 | |
sexual harassment happens to men as
well as women but we know from the | 3:29:40 | 3:29:43 | |
server it happens more to women. The
Right Honourable member for | 3:29:43 | 3:29:50 | |
harrowing of Essex said, how did we
let this happen? This is an | 3:29:50 | 3:29:57 | |
institution that was designed by
men, built for men, and for the | 3:29:57 | 3:30:01 | |
large part of its existence has been
run by men and almost exclusively | 3:30:01 | 3:30:06 | |
men. And therefore the place of
women within the institution, in | 3:30:06 | 3:30:12 | |
this chamber itself, or within the
stuff that support the work we do, | 3:30:12 | 3:30:16 | |
is not necessarily been viewed on an
equal basis. I think it's | 3:30:16 | 3:30:22 | |
interesting if we speak to women in
Parliament, we know, we all have | 3:30:22 | 3:30:25 | |
these experiences of being talked
over in meetings. Being questioned | 3:30:25 | 3:30:29 | |
about whether you are allowed to be
somewhere. Whether you've got the | 3:30:29 | 3:30:33 | |
right to be on the terrace or in a
particular lift during a division, | 3:30:33 | 3:30:37 | |
whether or not you are a researcher
or clean instead of a member of | 3:30:37 | 3:30:40 | |
Parliament. -- cleaner. The way
women journalists, bravely, reported | 3:30:40 | 3:30:47 | |
somebody said to her here comes the
tarty. How many other women | 3:30:47 | 3:30:52 | |
journalists have had similar
experiences and worse? In terms of | 3:30:52 | 3:30:56 | |
the way they've been treated by
people in this place. I remember | 3:30:56 | 3:30:58 | |
when I was a minister learning about
a former minister from the House of | 3:30:58 | 3:31:02 | |
Lords who had basically engaged with
his female, with his male private | 3:31:02 | 3:31:07 | |
office staff, but wouldn't speak to
the female private office staff or | 3:31:07 | 3:31:10 | |
take them seriously because they
happen to be women, even if they | 3:31:10 | 3:31:14 | |
were more senior. These things do
happen, we know these things happen. | 3:31:14 | 3:31:17 | |
I was really struck by the young
woman's trust briefing that said 89% | 3:31:17 | 3:31:23 | |
of women MPs and 58% of men MPs say
sexism still exists in Parliament. | 3:31:23 | 3:31:29 | |
That golf is significant, almost all
women now say there are still | 3:31:29 | 3:31:36 | |
instances of sexism but just over
half of men recognise that is the | 3:31:36 | 3:31:39 | |
case and that golf is part of the
problem we have and part of the | 3:31:39 | 3:31:42 | |
complacency that still exists. We
are only talking about gender, but | 3:31:42 | 3:31:48 | |
race, LGB PT, socioeconomic, all
these barriers. -- LGBT. It's not | 3:31:48 | 3:31:55 | |
every man that does this, but this
kind of behaviour is present in | 3:31:55 | 3:31:59 | |
every single political party and we
all experience it and see it from | 3:31:59 | 3:32:02 | |
time to time. It's not just a few
bad apples, it's cultural. In fact | 3:32:02 | 3:32:07 | |
women as well, we'll have the
capacity to make these assumptions, | 3:32:07 | 3:32:11 | |
to make thoughtless comments. When
we're somebody with a position of | 3:32:11 | 3:32:14 | |
power, those comments have so much
more force, so we have an extra | 3:32:14 | 3:32:18 | |
responsibility to be aware of this.
I would just say to all members of | 3:32:18 | 3:32:22 | |
the house, I say it myself as well,
often when we see these things | 3:32:22 | 3:32:26 | |
happen they are tolerated or
somebody rolled their eyes or they | 3:32:26 | 3:32:29 | |
are embarrassed, but it's not always
called out, because it might feel | 3:32:29 | 3:32:33 | |
uncomfortable or inconvenient or
it's easier not to rock the boat. | 3:32:33 | 3:32:36 | |
Part of what we need to do is to be
challenging and tackle that culture | 3:32:36 | 3:32:39 | |
through the work we do in this
place. In terms of specific issues | 3:32:39 | 3:32:44 | |
on the report I want to touch on a
couple very briefly. On the | 3:32:44 | 3:32:49 | |
behaviour code, this will be the
foundation of what we do, and the | 3:32:49 | 3:32:52 | |
widest possible involvement of
members of staff of those who are | 3:32:52 | 3:32:56 | |
not in those categories is vital to
make sure it is built on that shared | 3:32:56 | 3:32:59 | |
sense of values and it has,
therefore, the resonance we need it | 3:32:59 | 3:33:03 | |
to have, that people really buy into
it. There has been discussion about | 3:33:03 | 3:33:07 | |
training. I do think it's essential.
Certainly anyone employed, it should | 3:33:07 | 3:33:12 | |
be part of what they have to do in
order to be able to access funds | 3:33:12 | 3:33:16 | |
from trips to pay somebody. But also
on harassment and the issue of | 3:33:16 | 3:33:22 | |
content. When I did an interview on
the day of the release of this | 3:33:22 | 3:33:25 | |
report, I was challenged by John
Humphrys on the today programme. | 3:33:25 | 3:33:29 | |
Surely MPs know what is appropriate
behaviour. You know, if that were | 3:33:29 | 3:33:33 | |
universally the case we wouldn't be
in this situation in the first | 3:33:33 | 3:33:36 | |
place. And I think that there is no
room for complacency. The #MeToo | 3:33:36 | 3:33:46 | |
movement shows us that. We need
relationship and sex education in | 3:33:46 | 3:33:52 | |
schools for all peoples, I'm
dismayed at the government rolling | 3:33:52 | 3:33:56 | |
back on that. I'll give way to the
Right Honourable gentleman. Such a | 3:33:56 | 3:33:59 | |
good speak, particular the point
about assumptions because if you | 3:33:59 | 3:34:04 | |
want to change culture, everyone has
to stop making assumptions about | 3:34:04 | 3:34:08 | |
your own beliefs and what other
people's beliefs are. You need to | 3:34:08 | 3:34:11 | |
talk about that and get it into the
open without judgment. The other | 3:34:11 | 3:34:15 | |
thing I would agree with her
wholeheartedly on is about training | 3:34:15 | 3:34:20 | |
for MPs who employ staff. Ultimately
if you haven't been through a basic | 3:34:20 | 3:34:24 | |
training package, well then why
should the taxpayer allow you to | 3:34:24 | 3:34:27 | |
employ your own staff? I would
certainly welcome his support for | 3:34:27 | 3:34:32 | |
those points. I would say some of
what we experience in these issues | 3:34:32 | 3:34:37 | |
of harassment, some are undoubtedly
deliberate, with the intent to do | 3:34:37 | 3:34:42 | |
what is being done, entirely with
knowledge, but I think some of it is | 3:34:42 | 3:34:46 | |
also inadvertent. It is to tackle
that complacency that the training | 3:34:46 | 3:34:50 | |
is so essential. There will be
people who don't understand the | 3:34:50 | 3:34:53 | |
impact of all of the words that they
use. I attended a recent session on | 3:34:53 | 3:34:58 | |
anti-Semitism which was a
fascinating session by the Holocaust | 3:34:58 | 3:35:02 | |
educational trust. I think the more
we can listen and learn to the | 3:35:02 | 3:35:06 | |
experience of others, it helps us to
engage in a more mature weight on | 3:35:06 | 3:35:09 | |
these issues. That cultural change
is important. Sarah Childs is the | 3:35:09 | 3:35:14 | |
member for Perth and North
Perthshire, she recommended ways we | 3:35:14 | 3:35:21 | |
could change the culture and gave
evidence and talked about | 3:35:21 | 3:35:25 | |
challenging the exceptionalism of
MPs, that we think we're in a unique | 3:35:25 | 3:35:28 | |
scenario. Yes, there are many
elements of our job that are unusual | 3:35:28 | 3:35:31 | |
but it should be some kind of excuse
for not having basic professional | 3:35:31 | 3:35:35 | |
standards whether in terms of good
implement relationships, which if we | 3:35:35 | 3:35:39 | |
had good employment practice that
would deal with large part of the | 3:35:39 | 3:35:43 | |
problems we are experiencing here,
not entirely, but a large part. Or | 3:35:43 | 3:35:47 | |
whether it's evenly match your
approach to late-night sittings as | 3:35:47 | 3:35:50 | |
if it's a badge of pride. It's the
equivalent of having your jacket on | 3:35:50 | 3:35:54 | |
the back of the chair in the office.
It's not how modern are effective. I | 3:35:54 | 3:36:02 | |
also agree with the member for
Brighton Pavilion that we need to do | 3:36:02 | 3:36:05 | |
it as fast as possible, extend the
behaviour code to the behaviour of | 3:36:05 | 3:36:09 | |
members of Parliament and staff of
Parliament. Wherever they are. When | 3:36:09 | 3:36:13 | |
they are in that role, carrying out
duties, whether in the constituency, | 3:36:13 | 3:36:17 | |
office or at some event or here in
Parliament. I know others want to | 3:36:17 | 3:36:22 | |
speak so in conclusion the problems
we are facing are not unique to | 3:36:22 | 3:36:25 | |
Parliament but we all have a part to
play in dealing with them. This | 3:36:25 | 3:36:28 | |
motion today and this report is an
important first step, it will lead | 3:36:28 | 3:36:33 | |
to a real improvement and hopefully
help us to get our own house in | 3:36:33 | 3:36:35 | |
order. Jess Phillips. I like
everybody else want to commend the | 3:36:35 | 3:36:42 | |
work done by the leader, Shadow
leader and everybody on the working | 3:36:42 | 3:36:46 | |
group. 100 hours sounds... I would
definitely have lost the will to | 3:36:46 | 3:36:51 | |
live halfway through I think in the
negotiations. I think everybody | 3:36:51 | 3:36:54 | |
worked really, really hard. I think
it has been done relatively quickly | 3:36:54 | 3:37:00 | |
for this place. I mean, it's the
quickest thing I've known go through | 3:37:00 | 3:37:03 | |
since I've been here. There are just
a few points I wanted to raise. | 3:37:03 | 3:37:10 | |
Slight concerns about how we might
take this forward. By and large I | 3:37:10 | 3:37:14 | |
think it is brilliant, where there
are not often easy answers to | 3:37:14 | 3:37:19 | |
anonymity, privacy, this isn't easy.
People who are outside of this | 3:37:19 | 3:37:24 | |
building can say these things are
easy but when you're actually here | 3:37:24 | 3:37:28 | |
it is quite different. I also want
to place on record, we talk about | 3:37:28 | 3:37:32 | |
the events of last November and this
being the reason we are all here, I | 3:37:32 | 3:37:37 | |
want to say thank you to Lex Baillie
and Kate Maltby... And others, who | 3:37:37 | 3:37:48 | |
all have the guts to come forward
and say people who were powerful had | 3:37:48 | 3:37:55 | |
not always behaved the best with
them and they deserve huge praise | 3:37:55 | 3:37:59 | |
and merit. One of my concerns around
the issue of representation during | 3:37:59 | 3:38:08 | |
any process in the sexual harassment
and leader of the house said both | 3:38:08 | 3:38:15 | |
parties would be entitled to
representation, which is absolutely | 3:38:15 | 3:38:17 | |
as it should be. Fair in every
system in the land, whether trade | 3:38:17 | 3:38:25 | |
union representation union
representation. I do have a concern | 3:38:25 | 3:38:29 | |
about how we will make sure in this
place there is an equality of arms | 3:38:29 | 3:38:33 | |
in that representation, because if
you are a case worker working in one | 3:38:33 | 3:38:37 | |
of our offices and somebody sexually
harasses you and the person who's | 3:38:37 | 3:38:42 | |
actually you is a very wealthy peer
for example, I worry that one person | 3:38:42 | 3:38:50 | |
has a really good representation and
can frighten people with legal | 3:38:50 | 3:38:55 | |
letters. I've received some myself
in these past few months. That | 3:38:55 | 3:39:00 | |
worries me greatly, that there will
be an unfair imbalance. If the | 3:39:00 | 3:39:08 | |
Weinstein issue teaches us anything,
it's that rich men know how to use | 3:39:08 | 3:39:13 | |
the law to get away with murder. And
that, I think, we need to make sure | 3:39:13 | 3:39:21 | |
we are addressing that all the way
through this process. Also I have | 3:39:21 | 3:39:25 | |
one slight issue about the
independence of MPs being | 3:39:25 | 3:39:29 | |
decision-makers. Not with regards to
their marking their own homework, | 3:39:29 | 3:39:33 | |
I'm satisfied, I didn't know
anything about the numbers till | 3:39:33 | 3:39:35 | |
today. I'm satisfied actually with
the explanations I've heard. In the | 3:39:35 | 3:39:41 | |
report one of the decision-making
lines is, if a member of our staff | 3:39:41 | 3:39:49 | |
perpetrate sexual harassment or
bullying and harassment, that we are | 3:39:49 | 3:39:54 | |
one of the decision-makers. So I as
the employer would be the | 3:39:54 | 3:39:57 | |
decision-making. It seems completely
acceptable, that's what it would be | 3:39:57 | 3:40:00 | |
like in the world, the member for
Forest of Dean it's the same | 3:40:00 | 3:40:07 | |
standard as their employer. Except
in this place we are in close | 3:40:07 | 3:40:11 | |
quarters with our employees, I
employ only one person here. She is | 3:40:11 | 3:40:16 | |
very, very close to me and I feel
incredible loyalty towards her. I | 3:40:16 | 3:40:22 | |
walk around this building and see
people's children who are members of | 3:40:22 | 3:40:28 | |
Parliament who work in this
building. People's partners work in | 3:40:28 | 3:40:31 | |
here, people's families. I'm not
entirely sure that a member of | 3:40:31 | 3:40:37 | |
Parliament could be completely and
utterly without bias in a case | 3:40:37 | 3:40:42 | |
against a member of their staff. And
I think that definitely needs to be | 3:40:42 | 3:40:46 | |
looked into, because... I'll gladly
give way. | 3:40:46 | 3:40:53 | |
I hope to be able to assure reassure
her. We didn't come up against this | 3:40:53 | 3:41:00 | |
as she rightly says, there are some
very close, unusually close | 3:41:00 | 3:41:04 | |
relationships in this place. But
when there is a finding that there | 3:41:04 | 3:41:09 | |
is something against in the way of
an... And a member fails to take | 3:41:09 | 3:41:15 | |
action, it is been up on that
claimant to take the MP. I hope that | 3:41:15 | 3:41:24 | |
reassures you. That does reassure me
to some degree. My only concern is | 3:41:24 | 3:41:34 | |
that complainant having to do an
awful lot of work in making sure | 3:41:34 | 3:41:42 | |
that they are supported all the way
through that. I get going back to | 3:41:42 | 3:41:45 | |
the equality of arms to make sure
that... We are much more hopeful | 3:41:45 | 3:41:51 | |
than most people and much more
frightening than most people. -- we | 3:41:51 | 3:41:55 | |
are much more powerful than most
people. I'd like to think that I | 3:41:55 | 3:42:03 | |
could recognise that and try to
employ it with appropriateness. The | 3:42:03 | 3:42:09 | |
truth is, I still worry that there
will be a power imbalance. Although | 3:42:09 | 3:42:15 | |
I think the Working Group has done
everything that they could possibly | 3:42:15 | 3:42:19 | |
to find -- to do a very difficult
thing. I will finish by doing | 3:42:19 | 3:42:28 | |
just... All. I mean, I will give
way. I am grateful to the honourable | 3:42:28 | 3:42:39 | |
Lady because I think she rightly
points to the necessity that MPs as | 3:42:39 | 3:42:46 | |
employers because we are public
figures must be held to a much | 3:42:46 | 3:42:49 | |
higher standard than we would expect
of an ordinary small businessman. We | 3:42:49 | 3:42:57 | |
are accountable and we are expected
to be accountable and we Ards | 3:42:57 | 3:43:01 | |
leaders and example setters. And I
think the report addresses that and | 3:43:01 | 3:43:09 | |
her concern. There is going to be HR
support from outside for the staff | 3:43:09 | 3:43:13 | |
of members of Parliament so they get
the support of counselling they need | 3:43:13 | 3:43:17 | |
to take a complaint against their
employer in a way that has not | 3:43:17 | 3:43:21 | |
existed before. I totally recognise
that and as I say, not even broadly, | 3:43:21 | 3:43:28 | |
I am very happy with the progress
that has been made and I personally | 3:43:28 | 3:43:32 | |
felt very listened to. I think the
shadow leader for that. The system | 3:43:32 | 3:43:42 | |
will need to be tested as we go
through it. And lots of people have | 3:43:42 | 3:43:47 | |
talked about review. It will be
strength tested by those who go | 3:43:47 | 3:43:52 | |
through it. What we have to make
sure in this place is that we don't | 3:43:52 | 3:43:56 | |
do is when the first case comes and
and it is not as it should've been, | 3:43:56 | 3:44:03 | |
that we close ranks with each other
and that certainly I will always | 3:44:03 | 3:44:08 | |
commit to being the person who
closes ranks with the people on the | 3:44:08 | 3:44:13 | |
outside. So I commend the report.
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It | 3:44:13 | 3:44:23 | |
feels almost like Christmas is upon
us. Nearly all men can stand | 3:44:23 | 3:44:28 | |
adversity, but if you want to test a
man's's character, give him power. | 3:44:28 | 3:44:33 | |
That is something that Abraham
Lincoln said. What we have been | 3:44:33 | 3:44:35 | |
talking about today is what happens
when it does tend to be mainly men | 3:44:35 | 3:44:41 | |
have power and how power can be
missed misused. I want to pay | 3:44:41 | 3:44:48 | |
tribute to all those people who work
for a hundred hours for working at | 3:44:48 | 3:44:52 | |
this issue through that vein and
recognising it is about many | 3:44:52 | 3:44:55 | |
different ways that power can be
abuse. This place is powerful and | 3:44:55 | 3:44:59 | |
full powerful people. I took part in
an assembly on sexual harassment. | 3:44:59 | 3:45:07 | |
And it is a very sobering moment
when you think what to tell young | 3:45:07 | 3:45:11 | |
women of our country about sexual
harassment now in 2018 in the | 3:45:11 | 3:45:16 | |
environment of the MeToo Movement
and the environment of Harvey | 3:45:16 | 3:45:21 | |
Weinstein and the environment of
what we have seen and our charity | 3:45:21 | 3:45:24 | |
sector. Each individual is
responsible in terms of this motion | 3:45:24 | 3:45:29 | |
and what happens next but we know we
have a wider unit. It is not enough | 3:45:29 | 3:45:35 | |
to simply pay lip service and save
this should not be happening. It is | 3:45:35 | 3:45:40 | |
to ask what are we all doing to make
sure that it never happens again. | 3:45:40 | 3:45:44 | |
And the messes that we send out
through Parliament to this work and | 3:45:44 | 3:45:47 | |
we know this work must continue has
wider ramifications because it sets | 3:45:47 | 3:45:51 | |
the bar for other agencies. None of
us can claim that Parliament has | 3:45:51 | 3:45:55 | |
covered itself in glory. We have
been too slow. It is like leaving a | 3:45:55 | 3:46:01 | |
horse to water, instead of
recognising that some of those | 3:46:01 | 3:46:05 | |
donkeys have no place in our
political process. Now is our | 3:46:05 | 3:46:09 | |
opportunity to say that we are going
to make a stand not just Parliament | 3:46:09 | 3:46:13 | |
by a crossed Public life because it
matters to those girls. The freedom | 3:46:13 | 3:46:17 | |
that we would want all those girls
to be able to acknowledge their | 3:46:17 | 3:46:20 | |
potential. In the run-up to it
International Women's Day. I just | 3:46:20 | 3:46:26 | |
want to say four point that I hope
the Leader of the House will take on | 3:46:26 | 3:46:30 | |
board. Bearing in mind that some of
us have been called sheltie feminist | 3:46:30 | 3:46:33 | |
today. First and foremost, the
question about training. I | 3:46:33 | 3:46:41 | |
understand where he is coming from.
We have been inspiring each other in | 3:46:41 | 3:46:47 | |
issues around gender equality and
feminism. Either stand his point | 3:46:47 | 3:46:51 | |
about catching more flies with honey
than vinegar, but it is something | 3:46:51 | 3:46:54 | |
like this that people who are least
resistance are the most likely to | 3:46:54 | 3:46:58 | |
need to change. We cannot simply
keep asking nicely and then | 3:46:58 | 3:47:04 | |
apologising to the people would have
to do with the consequences. That is | 3:47:04 | 3:47:08 | |
why it matters we have six and
relationship education for every | 3:47:08 | 3:47:12 | |
young person in this country. And I
hope we'll all renew our resolve not | 3:47:12 | 3:47:16 | |
to backslide now. That is my second
point to the leader. I think this | 3:47:16 | 3:47:23 | |
does have to fit into this wider
context. We know it is not by | 3:47:23 | 3:47:28 | |
accident that people end up as
pass-holders. How do people get | 3:47:28 | 3:47:35 | |
involved whose matter how do people
get employed? Inevitably it is one | 3:47:35 | 3:47:41 | |
part of the puzzle of the jigsaw
about how to become involved in | 3:47:41 | 3:47:47 | |
public life. I want to pay tribute
today to the women who have come | 3:47:47 | 3:47:49 | |
forward as part of a labour of
campaign and given their stories. It | 3:47:49 | 3:47:54 | |
tells us that we have work to do
within our own political movement. I | 3:47:54 | 3:47:58 | |
think it is across political
parties. This process will only be | 3:47:58 | 3:48:02 | |
as good as the people were coming
into political activism and | 3:48:02 | 3:48:06 | |
political activism will only be as
good for the environment as we | 3:48:06 | 3:48:10 | |
create. How do we fit that in
without broader work about making | 3:48:10 | 3:48:14 | |
sure there is no hiding for those
people who to abuse power. My third | 3:48:14 | 3:48:20 | |
point is what happens when we find
people who behaved inappropriately. | 3:48:20 | 3:48:25 | |
I have been consistently asking
about recall. And I'm so pleased to | 3:48:25 | 3:48:29 | |
see that this is the agenda. I
believe we need to have the sanction | 3:48:29 | 3:48:34 | |
that none of us want to admit to but
know that it needs to be in the | 3:48:34 | 3:48:38 | |
process when someone is found to
have behaved in these ways. We have | 3:48:38 | 3:48:41 | |
heard today about whether standards
will come into it and if there is a | 3:48:41 | 3:48:46 | |
case of taking the initial question
about sections out of the commission | 3:48:46 | 3:48:53 | |
and giving it to a independent
third-party who would then advise us | 3:48:53 | 3:48:57 | |
so we can take out any suggestion of
political favour or fear of the | 3:48:57 | 3:49:01 | |
constant to the consequences. If
recall is the right course of | 3:49:01 | 3:49:06 | |
action, it should be on the table
because the transgression is serious | 3:49:06 | 3:49:10 | |
enough that the local community that
that person represents needs to have | 3:49:10 | 3:49:14 | |
the right to say something. None of
us would want to send one of those | 3:49:14 | 3:49:17 | |
young girls to go and see their Adam
Peaty knowing that that person has | 3:49:17 | 3:49:21 | |
behaved in a way we would not
tolerate in any other workplace. And | 3:49:21 | 3:49:26 | |
the fourth thing I want to say is we
know that this is just another | 3:49:26 | 3:49:31 | |
staging posts. This is the fourth
time that we have debated this. We | 3:49:31 | 3:49:34 | |
know that there is much more work to
do. I want to pledge my support in | 3:49:34 | 3:49:40 | |
keeping going. I fear there are
some, particularly some of his | 3:49:40 | 3:49:44 | |
plays, who may have even been
accused of things who are hoping | 3:49:44 | 3:49:47 | |
that after the title and subsides,
this issue will go away and life | 3:49:47 | 3:49:51 | |
will go back to normal. Let us not
make 2018 like 2017. Let's make 2018 | 3:49:51 | 3:49:59 | |
the point when the fans really did
shift. That means we have to keep | 3:49:59 | 3:50:03 | |
going and see these cases through.
As awkward and difficult as it is. | 3:50:03 | 3:50:09 | |
We all those young women I spoke to
today so much more, but that is at | 3:50:09 | 3:50:13 | |
least something we can promise them.
As one of the members of the Working | 3:50:13 | 3:50:23 | |
Group. I really do wish to
congratulate everyone involved. | 3:50:23 | 3:50:27 | |
Everyone who undertook this timely
long and drawn out and demanding | 3:50:27 | 3:50:30 | |
task. I think it is worth stating
the obvious fax. This process has | 3:50:30 | 3:50:40 | |
come up in cooperation for all the
people who sit in this House and | 3:50:40 | 3:50:44 | |
representatives of people employed
here and trade unions. I want to | 3:50:44 | 3:50:48 | |
commend the many witnesses who spoke
to us and particularly the | 3:50:48 | 3:50:52 | |
specialist adviser of sexual
harassment. I would also like to | 3:50:52 | 3:50:56 | |
commend the Leader of the House for
her patient work. This is a critical | 3:50:56 | 3:51:05 | |
step in transforming Westminster
into a 21st-century workplace. Again | 3:51:05 | 3:51:10 | |
let us take a moment to state an
obvious thing. Consider how | 3:51:10 | 3:51:16 | |
ineffective all of us would be here
without the staff. They balanced the | 3:51:16 | 3:51:23 | |
conflicting demands and enable us to
show composed face to the public. | 3:51:23 | 3:51:34 | |
And the flip side of that is this is
a tiring and pressurised | 3:51:34 | 3:51:38 | |
environment. There is a toxic mix of
power, ambition and vulnerability. | 3:51:38 | 3:51:42 | |
Much of which of course has played
out behind closed doors. Again, the | 3:51:42 | 3:51:50 | |
decentralization of this and any
workplace it is a matter of | 3:51:50 | 3:51:56 | |
equality. I think much of our
discussion is out of fear of where | 3:51:56 | 3:52:03 | |
we draw the lines. The unique nature
of terms of MPs staff who are | 3:52:03 | 3:52:11 | |
employed by MPs directly who could
only go to that an MP or the MP | 3:52:11 | 3:52:21 | |
party. That is why the independent
nature of this policy is so | 3:52:21 | 3:52:24 | |
significant. While of course
political parties must endeavour to | 3:52:24 | 3:52:32 | |
ensure that their policies are fair
without prejudice, the question of | 3:52:32 | 3:52:36 | |
whose interests are best served wall
was remaining in those woods. There | 3:52:36 | 3:52:42 | |
is an amount of work again for my
discussion today I think this is | 3:52:42 | 3:52:48 | |
obvious, that still needs to be
done. Over and above the | 3:52:48 | 3:52:51 | |
recommendations that have been
brought here today. There has been | 3:52:51 | 3:52:55 | |
quite as sophisticated discussion on
this. Another point I would like to | 3:52:55 | 3:53:00 | |
raise, is a matter of how we include
visitors to constituency offices | 3:53:00 | 3:53:06 | |
which needs to be addressed as a
matter of urgency. Also, how to | 3:53:06 | 3:53:11 | |
decide when and where elected
members or to whom the supplied and | 3:53:11 | 3:53:17 | |
their staff are engaged in
Parliamentary duties, be that | 3:53:17 | 3:53:21 | |
hearing once Mr on visits or abroad.
We need clarity on this to ensure | 3:53:21 | 3:53:29 | |
fairness. This will of course be a
semi judicial process. There has | 3:53:29 | 3:53:41 | |
been some discussion, I would draw
attention to the fact that this | 3:53:41 | 3:53:48 | |
report does anticipate changes in
clues and changes to the voting | 3:53:48 | 3:53:52 | |
arrangements with in the committee.
We are of course doing our best to | 3:53:52 | 3:53:57 | |
merge together the structures that
we have in this House alongside | 3:53:57 | 3:54:01 | |
cultural change. This will be
challenging, but I think we have the | 3:54:01 | 3:54:05 | |
balance as best we can and we will
be moving ahead with that. I would | 3:54:05 | 3:54:10 | |
urge that there is a campaign to
inform staff of the new human | 3:54:10 | 3:54:16 | |
resources facilities. I know it is
there and I know we have talked | 3:54:16 | 3:54:19 | |
about it, but we need to remind
people that this is their when they | 3:54:19 | 3:54:24 | |
needed. The independent complaint
policy in itself and I think the | 3:54:24 | 3:54:34 | |
particular emphasis for our staff to
constituency officers who are not | 3:54:34 | 3:54:39 | |
necessarily part of the same
discussion that we have here. The | 3:54:39 | 3:54:44 | |
process of forming new staff could
go into the future. It is not a one | 3:54:44 | 3:54:50 | |
event. Just as the size, I think
affective human resources facilities | 3:54:50 | 3:54:54 | |
being available to MP staff, these
will address the minor and mundane | 3:54:54 | 3:55:03 | |
problems and in doing so they will
prevent the problem from escalating. | 3:55:03 | 3:55:09 | |
Quite a bit of discussion about
training as well today, it's | 3:55:09 | 3:55:13 | |
important we depersonalise this.
There has been an individualistic | 3:55:13 | 3:55:17 | |
approach to this matter as a whole.
This isn't a threat to individuals | 3:55:17 | 3:55:21 | |
but anyway we bring about change as
an entire body, the training we | 3:55:21 | 3:55:28 | |
participate, not as a threat to
individuals, it's part of the | 3:55:28 | 3:55:31 | |
bringing about a change, this is our
corporate leadership to do that. To | 3:55:31 | 3:55:36 | |
close, and what I would like to
commend with this document in | 3:55:36 | 3:55:40 | |
particular, how politicians have
been able to rein in that | 3:55:40 | 3:55:45 | |
inclination to console as
individuals, to overemphasise the | 3:55:45 | 3:55:49 | |
potential for political motivation
in the complaints. This final report | 3:55:49 | 3:55:53 | |
has kept the balance between
supporting complainants and | 3:55:53 | 3:55:57 | |
resisting and overemphasis on
vexatious complaints. The success of | 3:55:57 | 3:56:06 | |
how these initiatives will be
measured will be from a culture of | 3:56:06 | 3:56:10 | |
deference and outmoded power
structures to a culture of respect | 3:56:10 | 3:56:13 | |
among equals working together in our
many Parliamentary workplaces | 3:56:13 | 3:56:17 | |
wherever they may be. The future
success will require rigorous | 3:56:17 | 3:56:24 | |
monitoring and implementation just
as the contribution of staff and | 3:56:24 | 3:56:27 | |
union representatives acted on a
number of occasions, frankly, as the | 3:56:27 | 3:56:31 | |
glue which held the working group
together. So it's essential there is | 3:56:31 | 3:56:34 | |
a full role. , representatives of
unions, or unions who have staff | 3:56:34 | 3:56:41 | |
here in the house. That they are
represented. These policies are not | 3:56:41 | 3:56:48 | |
complete. They will evolve in
practice and in review. But I am | 3:56:48 | 3:56:53 | |
confident they are catalysts of
change. Caroline Lucas. Thank you | 3:56:53 | 3:57:00 | |
very much Madam Deputy Speaker. I
think there is a sad irony that on | 3:57:00 | 3:57:05 | |
this hundredth anniversary of the
time when the first women won the | 3:57:05 | 3:57:08 | |
vote Parliament has been under the
spotlight as a place in which women | 3:57:08 | 3:57:11 | |
in particular do face so much
harassment and mistreatment. As we | 3:57:11 | 3:57:15 | |
know, one in five people working in
Westminster report experiencing or | 3:57:15 | 3:57:20 | |
witnessing sexual harassment in the
last 12 months, twice as many women | 3:57:20 | 3:57:24 | |
as men record incidents. It was a
real privilege to serve on the | 3:57:24 | 3:57:28 | |
cross-party working group set up to
respond to this routine sexual | 3:57:28 | 3:57:32 | |
misconduct, and indeed the
concurrent routine failure to handle | 3:57:32 | 3:57:35 | |
complaints either fairly or in some
cases at all. I want to join others | 3:57:35 | 3:57:39 | |
in paying particular tribute to the
leader of a house for her leadership | 3:57:39 | 3:57:42 | |
and commitment to seeking consensus
for the recommendations from the | 3:57:42 | 3:57:46 | |
working group. The report we
produced I think we'll set up a | 3:57:46 | 3:57:51 | |
support system where previously
there was none. It also establish an | 3:57:51 | 3:57:57 | |
independent framework in which
complaints can be heard and, | 3:57:57 | 3:58:01 | |
crucially, anybody who report sexual
misconduct will have access to a | 3:58:01 | 3:58:04 | |
complaints procedure that
specifically is designed to | 3:58:04 | 3:58:07 | |
differentiate between those cases
and bullying. That was the first and | 3:58:07 | 3:58:11 | |
arguably most important change the
working group pressed for. | 3:58:11 | 3:58:14 | |
Complainants will have access to
somebody with expertise in | 3:58:14 | 3:58:18 | |
supporting those who experience
sexual misconduct, somebody who | 3:58:18 | 3:58:20 | |
understands the complainant has to
be in control about the next steps | 3:58:20 | 3:58:23 | |
and who will fight for their rights
to be upheld. Parliament should lead | 3:58:23 | 3:58:28 | |
by example, not take it more power
away from those who make complaints, | 3:58:28 | 3:58:33 | |
as happens repeatedly elsewhere. I'm
very pleased this has been reflected | 3:58:33 | 3:58:36 | |
in the working group
recommendations. That is progress, | 3:58:36 | 3:58:41 | |
and it was possible due to having
one of the country's best qualified | 3:58:41 | 3:58:45 | |
expert in sexual harassment in an
advisory role on the working group, | 3:58:45 | 3:58:49 | |
meaning our work and decisions were
informed by evidence and best | 3:58:49 | 3:58:52 | |
practice. Thanks must go to her, but
also to the whole secretariat for | 3:58:52 | 3:58:57 | |
their tireless work, to all the
experts who supported us, and I | 3:58:57 | 3:59:00 | |
would echo the words of the
Honourable member for Perth and | 3:59:00 | 3:59:05 | |
North Perthshire about the
importance of staff representatives | 3:59:05 | 3:59:07 | |
in our negotiations, it really did
make our process far more effective | 3:59:07 | 3:59:11 | |
and inclusive. A complaint centred
approach is just the start. The next | 3:59:11 | 3:59:19 | |
steps are of equal importance,
especially the question of | 3:59:19 | 3:59:21 | |
sanctions. To some extent, that
question of sanctions is in the | 3:59:21 | 3:59:27 | |
hands of political parties, and I
welcome the commitment all parties | 3:59:27 | 3:59:30 | |
have made to reviewing and improving
their own processes. At the Green | 3:59:30 | 3:59:34 | |
party we've committed to referring
cases to an external body, which is | 3:59:34 | 3:59:42 | |
how we will ensure independence and
transparency. I'd like to make the | 3:59:42 | 3:59:45 | |
case that smaller parties are at a
disadvantage when it comes to | 3:59:45 | 3:59:47 | |
resource in those more robust
systems for training and constant | 3:59:47 | 3:59:52 | |
evaluation. I would ask Parliament
might be encouraged to look at this | 3:59:52 | 3:59:55 | |
on the grounds that I believe there
should be some element of funding | 3:59:55 | 3:59:57 | |
for political parties, and this
would be a good place to start. I | 3:59:57 | 4:00:02 | |
made that point at the working group
meeting. I've had previous | 4:00:02 | 4:00:08 | |
complainants and MPs tell me they
have zero confidence in their | 4:00:08 | 4:00:11 | |
parties to deal with cases fairly,
or take appropriate action against | 4:00:11 | 4:00:15 | |
perpetrators. That's the threat of a
by-election would be enough to kill | 4:00:15 | 4:00:18 | |
off the prospect of sanctions. A
vast amount of work must be done to | 4:00:18 | 4:00:25 | |
undo the years of sweeping under the
carpet that have taught us to a | 4:00:25 | 4:00:29 | |
place of distrust and despair. No
political party is perfect and I'm | 4:00:29 | 4:00:33 | |
certain my own party will have it's
an ongoing learning to do as | 4:00:33 | 4:00:37 | |
confident in procedure and more
vocal discourse on harassment right | 4:00:37 | 4:00:40 | |
encourages more people to come
forward. Today I want to pay tribute | 4:00:40 | 4:00:44 | |
in particular to labour and all of
the women with the coverage they've | 4:00:44 | 4:00:46 | |
shown in terms of raising that
within the Labour Party. The | 4:00:46 | 4:00:50 | |
challenge for political parties will
be to be brave enough to accept no | 4:00:50 | 4:00:56 | |
party, no organisation, no one, is
exempt from this. But that together | 4:00:56 | 4:01:00 | |
we can work together to challenge
that culture of harassment, and that | 4:01:00 | 4:01:04 | |
it can change if we are committed
enough to do that. And we must | 4:01:04 | 4:01:08 | |
prioritise the voices of those
coming forward over party | 4:01:08 | 4:01:11 | |
reputation. However, the working
group is clear many of those | 4:01:11 | 4:01:17 | |
experiencing sexual misconduct would
not be protected by party policies, | 4:01:17 | 4:01:21 | |
even if those were the best
possible. That is why we've | 4:01:21 | 4:01:24 | |
recommended the development of a
shared and binding behaviour code | 4:01:24 | 4:01:27 | |
that covers everyone working in
Parliament including all MPs, peers | 4:01:27 | 4:01:30 | |
and Parliamentary staff. That code
which will be developed in detail in | 4:01:30 | 4:01:34 | |
the coming months is crucial.
Volunteers, staff employed by | 4:01:34 | 4:01:39 | |
political parties, contractors,
officials working in Parliament, all | 4:01:39 | 4:01:42 | |
of them will be entitled hand-held
to the high standards of treatment. | 4:01:42 | 4:01:45 | |
It'll cover behaviour in any
designated place of work, or in the | 4:01:45 | 4:01:51 | |
cause of Parliamentary duties or
activities at home and crucially | 4:01:51 | 4:01:54 | |
also abroad. The working group
wasn't able in the timescale | 4:01:54 | 4:01:59 | |
involved to reach agreement on how
best to protect visitors to | 4:01:59 | 4:02:03 | |
constituency offices and I was
reassured by what the leader of the | 4:02:03 | 4:02:07 | |
house and said earlier in our
debate, saying it would be a | 4:02:07 | 4:02:10 | |
priority for her going forward.
We've had quite a bit of debate | 4:02:10 | 4:02:14 | |
about the role of the standards
committee, and while I do appreciate | 4:02:14 | 4:02:19 | |
that the inclusion of lay members on
that committee does improve the | 4:02:19 | 4:02:23 | |
situation, I do think the
recommendations in this report about | 4:02:23 | 4:02:26 | |
looking again at how the standards
committee works are going to be | 4:02:26 | 4:02:30 | |
important. I do think there is risk
of how this looks to outside this | 4:02:30 | 4:02:34 | |
place, to looking inside. If it
seems to them as if the outcome of a | 4:02:34 | 4:02:39 | |
complaint is in the hands of people,
politicians, who may have a vested | 4:02:39 | 4:02:43 | |
interest in not taking it any
further, I think it will undermine | 4:02:43 | 4:02:47 | |
all the good work we've done to
date. I think there is a risk we | 4:02:47 | 4:02:51 | |
could be perceived to leave the
system open to abuse by political | 4:02:51 | 4:02:56 | |
string bowlers and other career
makers or breakers. It flies in the | 4:02:56 | 4:03:00 | |
face of what constitutes best
practice and is utterly at odds with | 4:03:00 | 4:03:04 | |
the stand-up principle of an
independent system which underpins | 4:03:04 | 4:03:07 | |
the working group report. They risk
perpetuating the lack of trust | 4:03:07 | 4:03:12 | |
keenly felt by the staff these new
procedures are supposed to protect | 4:03:12 | 4:03:16 | |
and risk further reputational damage
by opening a sub, rightly, to | 4:03:16 | 4:03:21 | |
accusations we are dragging our feet
were letting perpetrators off the | 4:03:21 | 4:03:25 | |
hook. We've made huge strides in the
last hundred years but still have a | 4:03:25 | 4:03:29 | |
patriarchal political culture that
is, negates against woman and | 4:03:29 | 4:03:33 | |
bodies. A complaints mechanism fit
for purpose work to transform things | 4:03:33 | 4:03:37 | |
overnight but will make a big
difference and send a loud signal | 4:03:37 | 4:03:40 | |
that we recognise the problem. But
that difference and that signal | 4:03:40 | 4:03:46 | |
will, themselves, be seriously
undermined if MPs are left deciding | 4:03:46 | 4:03:51 | |
on recall and other sanctions. I
want to say a few last words about | 4:03:51 | 4:03:56 | |
culture change and I have been very
heartened by the number of people on | 4:03:56 | 4:03:59 | |
both sides of the house if stressed
the importance of culture change. It | 4:03:59 | 4:04:04 | |
was not formally within the remit of
our working group but I'm very glad | 4:04:04 | 4:04:08 | |
we did stray into it. It's very
right that we did. I think it does | 4:04:08 | 4:04:12 | |
show we have an opportunity to start
to dismantle the power inequalities | 4:04:12 | 4:04:16 | |
that exercise such a damaging grip
on politics and to replace them with | 4:04:16 | 4:04:20 | |
a culture founded on dignity,
equality and safety from harassment. | 4:04:20 | 4:04:24 | |
One that goes further than
sanctioning those who haven't yet | 4:04:24 | 4:04:28 | |
grasped why grabbing somebody's knee
without permission is a problem, one | 4:04:28 | 4:04:32 | |
that also seeks to educate. I'm
sorry that we didn't manage to get | 4:04:32 | 4:04:36 | |
agreement for compulsory content
training in this Parliament, though | 4:04:36 | 4:04:39 | |
I'm glad we had the famous kite mark
by any other name, we decided not to | 4:04:39 | 4:04:43 | |
call it a kite mark. The Honourable
member for Perth and North | 4:04:43 | 4:04:47 | |
Perthshire will be glad there is
still the idea of a naming and | 4:04:47 | 4:04:51 | |
shaming device. It could still mean
that proper compulsory content | 4:04:51 | 4:04:53 | |
training might not start happening
until 2022. I do think it's not | 4:04:53 | 4:04:59 | |
right that staffers and visitors to
the parliamentary estate have to | 4:04:59 | 4:05:03 | |
wait another five years to be
guaranteed safety in the workplace. | 4:05:03 | 4:05:07 | |
But I want to put on a record
formally now I believe we will have | 4:05:07 | 4:05:11 | |
failed all of those of experience
sexual misconduct and who | 4:05:11 | 4:05:15 | |
experienced it in future if we don't
continue the momentum started in | 4:05:15 | 4:05:18 | |
this working group to take radical
steps when it comes to culture | 4:05:18 | 4:05:21 | |
change. The immunity once enjoyed by
the powerful and influential is | 4:05:21 | 4:05:25 | |
starting to wear off, but perhaps
only because we are under a | 4:05:25 | 4:05:28 | |
spotlight and right now there are
loud, strong voices for change. It | 4:05:28 | 4:05:31 | |
has to continue, those loud voices
need to continue to be heard. This | 4:05:31 | 4:05:36 | |
issue must not be allowed to be
kicked into the long grass. | 4:05:36 | 4:05:40 | |
Arguments like only those who employ
staff should have to participate in | 4:05:40 | 4:05:45 | |
training, nor should those kinds of
arguments be allowed to gain | 4:05:45 | 4:05:48 | |
traction. Every single peer and MP
must learn about consent, bullying, | 4:05:48 | 4:05:52 | |
to understand the power they hold
and the weight of their actions. | 4:05:52 | 4:05:56 | |
That education has to be ongoing and
delivered by experts attacking | 4:05:56 | 4:06:01 | |
misconduct and bullying. Crucially,
I do believe, sadly, that this | 4:06:01 | 4:06:04 | |
training does need to be accompanied
by a system of financial penalties | 4:06:04 | 4:06:08 | |
imposed on those who fail to
cooperate, it's been recommended by | 4:06:08 | 4:06:12 | |
the Public Administration and
Constitutional affairs committees | 4:06:12 | 4:06:15 | |
and could include withholding pay
and allowances. The systems and | 4:06:15 | 4:06:18 | |
processes have to have teeth or they
will be rendered meaningless. Madame | 4:06:18 | 4:06:24 | |
Debord is bigger, unfortunately,
serious sexual harassment and | 4:06:24 | 4:06:26 | |
bullying is endemic in Westminster.
-- Madam Deputy Speaker. The | 4:06:26 | 4:06:32 | |
behaviour in this chamber is part of
the problem. I knows you and your | 4:06:32 | 4:06:36 | |
colleagues will continue to show
leadership in that respect as well | 4:06:36 | 4:06:38 | |
as demanding much more from
colleagues. Finally I want to echo | 4:06:38 | 4:06:43 | |
those Honourable members who have
already talked about the importance | 4:06:43 | 4:06:46 | |
of ongoing evaluation review and
development. We must make sure as we | 4:06:46 | 4:06:52 | |
go along we're tracking to see how
effective our new procedures are. | 4:06:52 | 4:06:56 | |
That must also include those cases
not taken forward. We need to devise | 4:06:56 | 4:07:02 | |
mechanisms for trying to capture
ones that don't even come into | 4:07:02 | 4:07:06 | |
contact with the system. I disagree
profoundly with the witnesses | 4:07:06 | 4:07:10 | |
evidence to the working group was
that we don't have a problem because | 4:07:10 | 4:07:12 | |
no one ever reported one. A final
few words about complainants wishing | 4:07:12 | 4:07:17 | |
to remain anonymous. We've protected
that right and reflected the | 4:07:17 | 4:07:21 | |
importance of building up a picture
that includes those cases, for | 4:07:21 | 4:07:24 | |
example, if an individual is accused
by a number of different people, | 4:07:24 | 4:07:28 | |
that is a pattern of behaviour that
can be investigated further, whether | 4:07:28 | 4:07:32 | |
or not formal complaints are made.
Of course we must uphold data | 4:07:32 | 4:07:35 | |
protection laws but I'm pleased I
think we found ways within the | 4:07:35 | 4:07:39 | |
framework to pay attention to cases
where the complainant wishes to | 4:07:39 | 4:07:42 | |
remain anonymous. Madam Deputy
Speaker, though the working group | 4:07:42 | 4:07:46 | |
doesn't go as far as I would have
liked in some areas, I'm proud of | 4:07:46 | 4:07:49 | |
the extent to which we've signalled
a 0% tolerance to sexual misconduct, | 4:07:49 | 4:07:55 | |
making politics a world genuinely
attractive, accessible and safe for | 4:07:55 | 4:08:00 | |
irrespective of gender, race,
sexuality or background is a prize | 4:08:00 | 4:08:04 | |
from which society as a whole can
only benefit. I'm reassured with the | 4:08:04 | 4:08:08 | |
kind of response we've had from all
sides of the house today that is | 4:08:08 | 4:08:11 | |
something we can do, that we can
make a real difference. Thank you | 4:08:11 | 4:08:17 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. Today marks a
positive step forwards towards | 4:08:17 | 4:08:24 | |
achieving a working environment that
treats everyone with the dignity and | 4:08:24 | 4:08:27 | |
respect they deserve when they come
to work. Further work is needed but | 4:08:27 | 4:08:30 | |
I do want to take this opportunity
to thank all those who have helped | 4:08:30 | 4:08:33 | |
us get to this point. So can I first
thank all members of the working | 4:08:33 | 4:08:38 | |
group, the Honourable members for
Walsall South, Brent Central, Perth | 4:08:38 | 4:08:44 | |
and North Perthshire, East
Dunbartonshire, Brighton Pavilion, | 4:08:44 | 4:08:46 | |
Belfast South... My noble friend
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park, Lord | 4:08:46 | 4:08:53 | |
Hope of Craighead and our staff
representatives Max Friedman, | 4:08:53 | 4:08:57 | |
Georgina Koester and Emily
Cunningham, for all of their | 4:08:57 | 4:09:02 | |
dedication and perseverance over the
last few months. I'd also like to | 4:09:02 | 4:09:06 | |
thank the amazingly hard-working
members of the secretariat, Nick | 4:09:06 | 4:09:10 | |
Beach, Andrew Boro, Christopher
Clarke, Ian Hook, Justine Henin, | 4:09:10 | 4:09:14 | |
Alex Langley, Helen Mott, Anna
Murphy, Sophie Sommerville and Kate | 4:09:14 | 4:09:18 | |
Emms, as well as my own leaders of
his team. Their help, support and | 4:09:18 | 4:09:23 | |
advice has been invaluable and I
sincerely thank them for their drive | 4:09:23 | 4:09:27 | |
and determination. I'm very grateful
to all those who gave written or | 4:09:27 | 4:09:30 | |
oral evidence to the group and for
colleagues or sides of the house and | 4:09:30 | 4:09:35 | |
in the other places given their own
thoughts and advice. Adam Deputy | 4:09:35 | 4:09:41 | |
Speaker, this Parliament must lead
by example. It is a right not a | 4:09:41 | 4:09:44 | |
privilege to be treated with dignity
and respect at work. This place must | 4:09:44 | 4:09:49 | |
set the best example of a workplace
that protects and support all those | 4:09:49 | 4:09:54 | |
working in it. So can I assure all
those who contributed and who care | 4:09:54 | 4:09:58 | |
deeply, as I do, about changing the
future for all who work here, that | 4:09:58 | 4:10:04 | |
I'm 100% committed to seeing this
through. No rolling back, no | 4:10:04 | 4:10:08 | |
watering down, and no delay. Madam
Deputy Speaker, I hope the house | 4:10:08 | 4:10:12 | |
will support this motion. The
question is that the amendment be | 4:10:12 | 4:10:17 | |
made. As many as are of that opinion
say aye. The ayes have it, the ayes | 4:10:17 | 4:10:27 | |
have it. The motion as amended, as
many as I wrote that opinion say | 4:10:27 | 4:10:32 | |
aye. On the contrary know. The ayes
have it, the ayes have it. | 4:10:32 | 4:10:42 | |
The title of the private build sent
down for consideration today. Middle | 4:10:42 | 4:10:47 | |
level Bill. No. We will take new
clause one which will it will be | 4:10:47 | 4:10:57 | |
convenient to consider. Sir
Christopher choke. I bake to move | 4:10:57 | 4:11:09 | |
new clause one, minimum debt
requirements. The Commissioner much | 4:11:09 | 4:11:13 | |
assured that the water in the
waterways must be a minimum depth of | 4:11:13 | 4:11:18 | |
three feet. In the event that the
depth is not maintained, no boaters | 4:11:18 | 4:11:25 | |
should be required to pay any
charge. And the background to this | 4:11:25 | 4:11:31 | |
new clause is the principle of quid
pro quo. Because the petitioners are | 4:11:31 | 4:11:44 | |
concerned that new charges and
obligations are being brought in | 4:11:44 | 4:11:49 | |
without them getting anything in
return. But before I expand on that. | 4:11:49 | 4:11:54 | |
Can I say that because all of these
new clauses and amendments are being | 4:11:54 | 4:12:01 | |
grouped together in one, we are
effectively discussing the Bill as a | 4:12:01 | 4:12:05 | |
whole. I think every single part of
the Bill is included in one or other | 4:12:05 | 4:12:12 | |
of the amendments. And I'm grateful
to my friend for confirming that | 4:12:12 | 4:12:16 | |
that is the situation. I must make a
few introductory remarks by saying | 4:12:16 | 4:12:23 | |
that I know I am the petitioners
much appreciate the way in which the | 4:12:23 | 4:12:30 | |
promotion of this Bill have
responded positively to the points | 4:12:30 | 4:12:34 | |
made. As a series of good points
that out in the promoter's statement | 4:12:34 | 4:12:42 | |
and the people who worked on the
committee I think that everybody | 4:12:42 | 4:12:51 | |
agrees that this is to a credit to
this House that this Bill has been | 4:12:51 | 4:12:56 | |
looked at in such detail. Obviously,
when we had the Second Reading | 4:12:56 | 4:13:04 | |
debate, number of points were made
and the petitioner and the | 4:13:04 | 4:13:07 | |
commissioners responded to those and
some of those responses were | 4:13:07 | 4:13:13 | |
reflected in amendments that were
brought forward at the Committee | 4:13:13 | 4:13:16 | |
Stage and at the same time when the
petitioners had a chance to be | 4:13:16 | 4:13:21 | |
heard, over I think three days, many
of their points were accepted. I | 4:13:21 | 4:13:26 | |
think the stage where we are now is
the amendments were put forward as a | 4:13:26 | 4:13:32 | |
result of those were representation,
question whether those amendments go | 4:13:32 | 4:13:39 | |
far enough, could beach week in some
way. -- could beach week in some | 4:13:39 | 4:13:45 | |
way. I am sure that when the Bill
does go to the Other Place, there | 4:13:45 | 4:13:54 | |
will be a petition against it and we
will be able to see the extent to | 4:13:54 | 4:13:57 | |
which the petitioners arguments are
accepted today prior to the Bill | 4:13:57 | 4:14:06 | |
going to the Other Place. Because
obviously it is open at any stage of | 4:14:06 | 4:14:12 | |
the promoter of the Bill to say, I
think that is a good point, we have | 4:14:12 | 4:14:15 | |
not thought of that. I'm behalf of
the promoters, he is a very good | 4:14:15 | 4:14:25 | |
listener. And I am sure that will go
well for the future. So this is a | 4:14:25 | 4:14:32 | |
Bill that has been never objected
to. I think it is now much better | 4:14:32 | 4:14:43 | |
Bill, but although much better, it
does not mean it is not capable of | 4:14:43 | 4:14:47 | |
further improvement. That is the
whole purpose of putting forward | 4:14:47 | 4:14:53 | |
these new clauses and amendments
this afternoon. Paragraph 2.3 of the | 4:14:53 | 4:15:00 | |
statement on behalf of the promoter
of the middle level commissioners in | 4:15:00 | 4:15:05 | |
support of the Bill makes clear that
the commissioners currently do not | 4:15:05 | 4:15:13 | |
receive any income from the
navigation of the waterways. With | 4:15:13 | 4:15:17 | |
the passage of this Bill they will
see income. New clause one is | 4:15:17 | 4:15:22 | |
designed to ensure that the quid pro
quo is that if the waterway is not | 4:15:22 | 4:15:33 | |
navigable, those charges should not
be applied. The petitioners believe | 4:15:33 | 4:15:37 | |
that under case law that means the
commissioners must provide something | 4:15:37 | 4:15:49 | |
beyond what is already provided in
return for making additional | 4:15:49 | 4:15:52 | |
charges. I think you accept that is
a reasonable proposition. The march | 4:15:52 | 4:15:59 | |
cruising club specifically are of
the opinion that if you are able to | 4:15:59 | 4:16:05 | |
charge the boaters to use the system
of navigation, it is essential that | 4:16:05 | 4:16:09 | |
voter facilities are available and
also there is adequate depth of | 4:16:09 | 4:16:18 | |
water and that is maintained or
introduced at a minimum standard and | 4:16:18 | 4:16:21 | |
where that does not apply, then
there should be a waving of any | 4:16:21 | 4:16:27 | |
requirement to pay any charges. Yes,
of course I would. As you would be | 4:16:27 | 4:16:36 | |
aware. This does affect my
constituency because without the | 4:16:36 | 4:16:40 | |
middle level commissioners, we
wouldn't have many thousands of | 4:16:40 | 4:16:48 | |
farmland. The key point here is that
the money that was previously spent | 4:16:48 | 4:16:57 | |
on navigation unlocks, on these
waterways, if it is actually funded | 4:16:57 | 4:17:01 | |
through this charge, there will be
more money for flood defenses. And | 4:17:01 | 4:17:06 | |
flood defenses are absolute key
issue and a priority in this part of | 4:17:06 | 4:17:11 | |
my constituency. Do you agree that
the principle of the Bill is | 4:17:11 | 4:17:15 | |
actually really fit for purpose? Now
he has got his involvement with | 4:17:15 | 4:17:21 | |
these various amendments, but the
principle is still very strong. I | 4:17:21 | 4:17:29 | |
think the principle is that if the
farmers and I know that my | 4:17:29 | 4:17:36 | |
honourable friend has a significant
interest in farming, if farmers are | 4:17:36 | 4:17:40 | |
going to benefit from this type of
scheme that I don't see why they | 4:17:40 | 4:17:46 | |
should not have to pay for the
benefit that they are getting. From | 4:17:46 | 4:17:50 | |
that scheme. And that is what this
is all about. I don't hold myself | 4:17:50 | 4:17:56 | |
out as an expert on anything, but
certainly not on this. I am told | 4:17:56 | 4:18:03 | |
that if if there was no longer any
land drainage, then the navigation | 4:18:03 | 4:18:09 | |
would be actually a much wider, more
effective, deeper and so on. So in a | 4:18:09 | 4:18:17 | |
sense, the land drainage which
enables the farmers to make their | 4:18:17 | 4:18:20 | |
profits off the land is of direct
benefit to the farmers, as the | 4:18:20 | 4:18:28 | |
navigation would be there anyway. I
don't know if you except that sure | 4:18:28 | 4:18:36 | |
analysis of it. Maybe he is a better
student of geography than I am. That | 4:18:36 | 4:18:42 | |
is what I am informed. In that
sense, Mr Deputy Speaker, when the | 4:18:42 | 4:18:49 | |
commissioners were first given their
role, it was on the basis that they | 4:18:49 | 4:18:52 | |
would recover charges from the land
owners rather than the users of the | 4:18:52 | 4:19:00 | |
navigation. And so if there are
going to be charges introduced for | 4:19:00 | 4:19:07 | |
the use of the navigation, then the
argument is those charges should be | 4:19:07 | 4:19:13 | |
in respect of enabling the
navigation to be kept open and | 4:19:13 | 4:19:16 | |
usable by those who are being
charged for using it. That seems a | 4:19:16 | 4:19:24 | |
perfect and equitable way to do it.
That is the background to the first | 4:19:24 | 4:19:32 | |
Amendment of the new clause. Before
he moves on, will he give way? I am | 4:19:32 | 4:19:40 | |
very grateful to him. I apologise
for missing his opening statement. | 4:19:40 | 4:19:44 | |
But could he... Could he tell me how
many times that this depth of water | 4:19:44 | 4:19:54 | |
is not maintained to this level? Is
this a solution looking for a | 4:19:54 | 4:19:59 | |
problem or is this a genuine
problem? I'm afraid I am not brief | 4:19:59 | 4:20:06 | |
to have an answer to that particular
question. All I can say is that is a | 4:20:06 | 4:20:11 | |
general comment that this is a point
which has been raised by the March | 4:20:11 | 4:20:15 | |
cruising club and I imagine they
would not be concerned about this if | 4:20:15 | 4:20:20 | |
it was not a problem. That is all I
can say to my honourable friend. The | 4:20:20 | 4:20:26 | |
March cruising club believe that
this is a very important issue for | 4:20:26 | 4:20:31 | |
them. There should be this adequate
depth of water to make sure the | 4:20:31 | 4:20:35 | |
navigation is available. That brings
me onto a new clause two which is a | 4:20:35 | 4:20:46 | |
requirement to provide specified
facilities. That would require the | 4:20:46 | 4:20:51 | |
commissioners within 12 months of
the day of the act coming into force | 4:20:51 | 4:20:57 | |
providing facilities at those locks.
Including a laboratory, freshwater | 4:20:57 | 4:21:02 | |
point, beings, etc. They should also
provide a minimum of ten moorings | 4:21:02 | 4:21:10 | |
for up to seven days capable of
accommodating a boat up to 50 feet | 4:21:10 | 4:21:14 | |
in length. This is, again, a quid
pro quo. If the commissioners want | 4:21:14 | 4:21:20 | |
to make money out of the navigation,
it would be sensible for them to be | 4:21:20 | 4:21:29 | |
able to make sure that there are
proper facilities for those vessels, | 4:21:29 | 4:21:35 | |
which are using the navigation and
will be paying significantly for | 4:21:35 | 4:21:38 | |
that privilege. A similar point is
raised a new clause three. By the | 4:21:38 | 4:21:51 | |
March cruising club to say that the
commissioners must within 12 months | 4:21:51 | 4:21:55 | |
of the day this act comes in to
force and of course... I understand | 4:21:55 | 4:22:08 | |
the commissioners have more or less
guaranteed that this is what they | 4:22:08 | 4:22:10 | |
are going to do provide these
facilities, but what the | 4:22:10 | 4:22:16 | |
petitioners, understandably, want to
ensure is that those undertakings | 4:22:16 | 4:22:20 | |
and expression of good intention are
properly reflected on the face of | 4:22:20 | 4:22:26 | |
the legislation rather than just
being left as a matter of good will. | 4:22:26 | 4:22:30 | |
I will give way. Shortly there is
very few precedents for putting this | 4:22:30 | 4:22:39 | |
on the face of the Bill, specific
infrastructure. I think it would | 4:22:39 | 4:22:45 | |
some way cheapen the Bill and I
think make it... The voting interest | 4:22:45 | 4:22:57 | |
what they want above all else they
want really good navigable waters, | 4:22:57 | 4:23:03 | |
that are well maintained at the rate
depth so they can enjoy both at | 4:23:03 | 4:23:09 | |
different time peered and then if
there is a service of revenue that | 4:23:09 | 4:23:18 | |
means other facilities indeed can be
looked at in the future. I would | 4:23:18 | 4:23:23 | |
urge my right honourable friend
putting this on the face of a Bill | 4:23:23 | 4:23:25 | |
is not a good idea. I am glad that
my honourable friend agrees that the | 4:23:25 | 4:23:33 | |
provision of these facilities is a
good idea, but I cannot understand | 4:23:33 | 4:23:37 | |
why he thinks requiring them to be
provided on the face of the Bill is | 4:23:37 | 4:23:41 | |
not a good idea. He says there is no
need. I suppose it is an issue of | 4:23:41 | 4:23:52 | |
trust as to whether or not the
undertakings can... Will be | 4:23:52 | 4:23:57 | |
honoured. We have had precedent in
other bills, private bills in this | 4:23:57 | 4:24:05 | |
House, for example, in the North
London cemetery Bill. Where the | 4:24:05 | 4:24:09 | |
promoters of the Bill giving an
undertaking which was then put on... | 4:24:09 | 4:24:20 | |
Put in the public domain and that
may be another way of resolving this | 4:24:20 | 4:24:25 | |
problem. It seems what my right
honourable friend is saying is that | 4:24:25 | 4:24:31 | |
everyone is in agreement that these
facilities are necessary and | 4:24:31 | 4:24:35 | |
desirable and should be provided.
So, that brings me onto new clause | 4:24:35 | 4:24:43 | |
four, which is saying the
commissioners must within 12 months | 4:24:43 | 4:24:48 | |
enable access of moorings under a
boot NT system. Operated by the | 4:24:48 | 4:24:57 | |
commissioners. Not an unreasonable
suggestion. This is a practise that | 4:24:57 | 4:25:01 | |
is commonplace in the boating
industry. Then I think the most | 4:25:01 | 4:25:09 | |
important of these five introductory
new clauses, Mr Deputy Speaker, is | 4:25:09 | 4:25:15 | |
new clause five, which would make
provision that no voter should be | 4:25:15 | 4:25:19 | |
required to pay any charges under
the provisions of this act until the | 4:25:19 | 4:25:24 | |
facilities and moorings specified in
the act are maintained in good | 4:25:24 | 4:25:28 | |
repair and in working order. | 4:25:28 | 4:25:36 | |
Should the users be required to pay
before they got the facilities or | 4:25:36 | 4:25:40 | |
should they only be required to pay
once facilities are there? It seems | 4:25:40 | 4:25:44 | |
to me that is an important issue. I
particularly support new clause five | 4:25:44 | 4:25:55 | |
Mr Deputy Speaker because I struggle
to find a reason anybody couldn't | 4:25:55 | 4:26:02 | |
support new clause five because it
only seems to be fair. I wonder | 4:26:02 | 4:26:06 | |
whether or not my honourable friend
had had any discussions with either | 4:26:06 | 4:26:10 | |
the promoter of the bill or the
people behind it to find out if | 4:26:10 | 4:26:14 | |
they, too, thought it was just a
clause they would accept or what | 4:26:14 | 4:26:21 | |
logical reason they have for not
accepting it. We haven't reached | 4:26:21 | 4:26:23 | |
that stage yet, I have to say, my
honourable friend. It may be my | 4:26:23 | 4:26:28 | |
fault because I haven't actually sat
down with the promoters of this bill | 4:26:28 | 4:26:34 | |
and discussed in detail these
particular issues. My understanding | 4:26:34 | 4:26:37 | |
is that there have been quite a lot
of discussions around this in the | 4:26:37 | 4:26:43 | |
context of the committee stage and
that the petitioners, for the | 4:26:43 | 4:26:49 | |
reasons I've set out, are still
unhappy and feel that there needs to | 4:26:49 | 4:26:56 | |
be a new clause incorporating this
particular condition. Of course I'll | 4:26:56 | 4:26:59 | |
give way. I thank the Honourable
member for giving way and I am | 4:26:59 | 4:27:03 | |
finding his speech of some interest,
would he be interested to note | 4:27:03 | 4:27:06 | |
clause four was amended in the
committee to make clear revenue from | 4:27:06 | 4:27:12 | |
navigation would only be spent on
navigation purposes and this was | 4:27:12 | 4:27:16 | |
done in response to the petitioners
concern is to ensure the confidence | 4:27:16 | 4:27:20 | |
they could have, that effectively
whilst they are getting something | 4:27:20 | 4:27:22 | |
for nothing, they would get
something for what they pay and it | 4:27:22 | 4:27:27 | |
would be clear navigation fees would
go on navigational facilities and | 4:27:27 | 4:27:30 | |
costs. I thank my honourable friend
for his intervention. We'll be | 4:27:30 | 4:27:36 | |
coming on to clause four and
amendments to clause four. I'm not | 4:27:36 | 4:27:40 | |
going to do anything other than say
the petitioners and I are very | 4:27:40 | 4:27:45 | |
pleased that new clause four was
introduced into the bill in the | 4:27:45 | 4:27:49 | |
committee stage in response to
concerns expressed. I mentioned at | 4:27:49 | 4:27:53 | |
the outset, because it was brought
in at that stage, doesn't mean it's | 4:27:53 | 4:27:59 | |
perfect. This is really why we've
got these new clauses, these | 4:27:59 | 4:28:05 | |
preliminary new clauses, and some
amendments to clause four which I | 4:28:05 | 4:28:09 | |
shall come to in due course. I think
it's much easier for people to | 4:28:09 | 4:28:14 | |
follow proceedings if we go, start
at the beginning and go clause by | 4:28:14 | 4:28:19 | |
clause. Yes? And very grateful, but
would he agree with me that if new | 4:28:19 | 4:28:26 | |
clause five were not accepted it
would, in effect, mean people would | 4:28:26 | 4:28:30 | |
say it was absolutely fine for the
charges to be made, but the | 4:28:30 | 4:28:34 | |
facilities not to be in good repair
and working order and that would be | 4:28:34 | 4:28:40 | |
intolerable if that were not
accepted. I hear the Honourable | 4:28:40 | 4:28:46 | |
friend speaking on behalf of the
promoters say in my honourable | 4:28:46 | 4:28:50 | |
friend would be wrong about that.
Let's wait until we get to | 4:28:50 | 4:28:57 | |
discussing clause four, which was
introduced at the committee stage, | 4:28:57 | 4:29:01 | |
to see whether we can tease more
information out on all the | 4:29:01 | 4:29:06 | |
implications. As far as... This
brings me on to the amendments, Mr | 4:29:06 | 4:29:15 | |
Deputy Speaker. Amendment number
one, page two clause one, line 24, | 4:29:15 | 4:29:21 | |
it basically says it's an
unreasonably short period of time | 4:29:21 | 4:29:27 | |
between this bill obtaining consent
and being implemented. It specified | 4:29:27 | 4:29:37 | |
it should only be 28 days, and it
seems to me that it would be | 4:29:37 | 4:29:45 | |
reasonable for that period to be six
months. It would come into force at | 4:29:45 | 4:29:51 | |
the end of six months beginning on
the day which it was passed. I would | 4:29:51 | 4:29:59 | |
not say it was the most important of
all the amendments but it would be | 4:29:59 | 4:30:02 | |
interesting to hear from the
promoters asked why they don't think | 4:30:02 | 4:30:06 | |
it's a reasonable position to have,
because we know under the provisions | 4:30:06 | 4:30:10 | |
of this bill they're going to have
to draw up bylaws and it doesn't | 4:30:10 | 4:30:16 | |
mean they can't start working on the
bylaws in advance of the bill being | 4:30:16 | 4:30:23 | |
passed into law and then leaving a
period of six months until it | 4:30:23 | 4:30:29 | |
implemented, bearing in mind the
fact we're dealing with a lot of | 4:30:29 | 4:30:36 | |
laypeople who are... Who will
probably need a lot of notice of the | 4:30:36 | 4:30:41 | |
changes that are going to be made
under the provisions of this bill. | 4:30:41 | 4:30:49 | |
So, amendments two, again, is, in a
sense, a drafting amendment. When we | 4:30:49 | 4:30:54 | |
get the definition of what is
polluting, it seems to me, it's much | 4:30:54 | 4:31:06 | |
easier to keep that as an objective
test and so I've got no problem | 4:31:06 | 4:31:13 | |
defining polluting matter as sewage
or any other injurious matter, | 4:31:13 | 4:31:16 | |
whether solid or liquid. We were let
our imaginations run to wild on all | 4:31:16 | 4:31:23 | |
that. What I find more difficult Mr
Deputy Speaker is what is meant by | 4:31:23 | 4:31:28 | |
the word offensive. What is added by
including that, because essentially, | 4:31:28 | 4:31:35 | |
what is offensive to one person may
not be offensive to another. It's a | 4:31:35 | 4:31:40 | |
subjective test. I'd be interested
to know from my honourable friend | 4:31:40 | 4:31:44 | |
what he thinks that subjective test
adds in that particular part of the | 4:31:44 | 4:31:50 | |
interpretation section on polluting
matter. In relation to amendment | 4:31:50 | 4:31:59 | |
three, I'm going through these quite
quickly but as I don't think there | 4:31:59 | 4:32:02 | |
is any need to spend a lot of time
on amendments to which there should | 4:32:02 | 4:32:07 | |
be a short and succinct answer
saying, yes, I agree with the | 4:32:07 | 4:32:13 | |
honourable gentleman, I think these
are good amendments and we'll be | 4:32:13 | 4:32:16 | |
happy to incorporate them in the
bill. As far as amendment three | 4:32:16 | 4:32:20 | |
goes, this is more of a probing
amendment. Because we are in the new | 4:32:20 | 4:32:28 | |
age of electricity. The definition
of power driven vessel here includes | 4:32:28 | 4:32:35 | |
a vessel propelled by detachable
outboard engine. But it doesn't | 4:32:35 | 4:32:43 | |
include a sailing boat, rowing boat,
or canoe. Fine. Now that we've got a | 4:32:43 | 4:32:50 | |
new generation of electric motors,
why don't we introduce in a bill | 4:32:50 | 4:32:57 | |
like this an incentive for people to
use electric power on these | 4:32:57 | 4:33:06 | |
waterways as photos? Because
electric power is a much less | 4:33:06 | 4:33:12 | |
polluting and better for the
atmosphere. -- use these waterways | 4:33:12 | 4:33:19 | |
as boaters. If it's quiet, as these
new cards seem to be, it would | 4:33:19 | 4:33:24 | |
hardly disturb anybody, as the boat
powered by an electric motor glides | 4:33:24 | 4:33:32 | |
down the route of the navigation. So
I'd be interested in the thoughts of | 4:33:32 | 4:33:39 | |
my honourable friend on that. And
indeed on recognising the minister | 4:33:39 | 4:33:45 | |
on the front bench, who's come along
to help us in our deliberations. | 4:33:45 | 4:33:49 | |
Maybe this is an issue as well which
the government might be interested | 4:33:49 | 4:33:54 | |
in thinking about introducing some
sort of incentive for the use of | 4:33:54 | 4:33:58 | |
electric motors rather than
outboards. I know that in my | 4:33:58 | 4:34:05 | |
constituency if there were more
electric driven vessels rather than | 4:34:05 | 4:34:12 | |
power driven vessels, a lot of my
constituents would be very happy. | 4:34:12 | 4:34:17 | |
That could be the opening up of a
much larger issue, but why not start | 4:34:17 | 4:34:22 | |
raising it on the first occasion to
today? Which takes me on to | 4:34:22 | 4:34:29 | |
amendment four Mr Deputy Speaker,
which is about the use. Are we | 4:34:29 | 4:34:38 | |
talking about the use of the
vessels. It says in use in relation | 4:34:38 | 4:34:42 | |
to any vessel on the waterway
includes launching the vessel onto | 4:34:42 | 4:34:46 | |
the waterway, keeping or mooring it
on the waterway. I've got no quarrel | 4:34:46 | 4:34:52 | |
with the rest of it, navigating
getting it on the waterway and | 4:34:52 | 4:34:55 | |
letting it for higher. But there
seems to be a lot of concern about | 4:34:55 | 4:34:59 | |
what happens when people have a
vessel which is kept at the side of | 4:34:59 | 4:35:05 | |
the waterway, even in a marina,
always used as a houseboat. Are we | 4:35:05 | 4:35:15 | |
really saying it is about using the
vessel on a waterway? Under this | 4:35:15 | 4:35:25 | |
definition, it would amount to using
the vessel on a waterway and it | 4:35:25 | 4:35:29 | |
doesn't seem to me that really fits
in with common sense, using a | 4:35:29 | 4:35:35 | |
waterway means, surely, using it,
navigating it, letting it for | 4:35:35 | 4:35:38 | |
higher. It doesn't include keeping
or mooring it on the waterway. That | 4:35:38 | 4:35:45 | |
is amendment number four. Number
five is a more extensive version of | 4:35:45 | 4:35:57 | |
the same concern, which has been
raised by a number of the | 4:35:57 | 4:36:05 | |
petitioners. Because the extension
of waterways, they say they find the | 4:36:05 | 4:36:16 | |
amended definition in this bill
compared with what it was like | 4:36:16 | 4:36:21 | |
before it went to committee is, I
quote, a move in the right | 4:36:21 | 4:36:25 | |
direction. But it still serves to
extend the jurisdiction and control | 4:36:25 | 4:36:31 | |
of the commissioners into privately
owned property, such as marinas, | 4:36:31 | 4:36:35 | |
which will usurp the rights of
property owners to decide who and | 4:36:35 | 4:36:39 | |
which boats can use the water over
their land. And the petitioners feel | 4:36:39 | 4:36:44 | |
this is an unwarranted interference
with the rights of private citizens. | 4:36:44 | 4:36:48 | |
And at the very least there should
be provision for boat owners whose | 4:36:48 | 4:36:53 | |
vessels remain permanently within
the marina to make an offer what a | 4:36:53 | 4:36:59 | |
declaration, a sort of waterway | 4:36:59 | 4:37:08 | |
the marina to make an offer what a
declaration, a sort of waterway, so | 4:37:08 | 4:37:09 | |
they are no longer reliable for the
charges. I think it's a very good | 4:37:09 | 4:37:15 | |
analogy. If you don't use your
vehicle, your motor vehicle, on the | 4:37:15 | 4:37:18 | |
road, you don't have to pay the tax,
the road tax. If you're not using a | 4:37:18 | 4:37:23 | |
houseboat on the water, why should
you have to pay for these charges | 4:37:23 | 4:37:28 | |
and why should you? That issue could
be resolved by having a narrower | 4:37:28 | 4:37:35 | |
definition of waterway and that,
indeed, is what amendment number | 4:37:35 | 4:37:42 | |
five six to do, because it says at
line 17, or is it lying 18... The | 4:37:42 | 4:37:53 | |
waterways mean... Including the
waterways set out in the schedule, | 4:37:53 | 4:38:01 | |
that is what we would understand
that the waterways. The banks of | 4:38:01 | 4:38:06 | |
those waterways and any water in the
middle level, which is what this | 4:38:06 | 4:38:12 | |
bill is about. What I take objection
to is... I don't see why it should | 4:38:12 | 4:38:17 | |
include a lake, pond, marina was
substantially enclosed water | 4:38:17 | 4:38:23 | |
adjacent to those waterways. And
from which any vessel may be | 4:38:23 | 4:38:27 | |
navigated, whether or not through a
lock or into the waterways | 4:38:27 | 4:38:30 | |
themselves. If a vessel is navigated
to the waterway, then it is in the | 4:38:30 | 4:38:39 | |
waterway and it is liable under the
provisions of this bill. But if it's | 4:38:39 | 4:38:45 | |
not navigated in there, doesn't seem
to me it is relevant to say it could | 4:38:45 | 4:38:49 | |
be navigated. So this, one way of
reducing the scope of the definition | 4:38:49 | 4:38:57 | |
of waterways, about which the
petitioners remain concerned, would | 4:38:57 | 4:39:00 | |
be to support amendment number five.
When we turn to amendment under six, | 4:39:00 | 4:39:10 | |
which is to clause three, this is a
new clause introduced as a result of | 4:39:10 | 4:39:23 | |
the work of the committee. That
dealt with this. It establishes a | 4:39:23 | 4:39:28 | |
navigation advisory committee. And
the petitioners are very pleased | 4:39:28 | 4:39:33 | |
about that. But they think this
needs further definition and that's | 4:39:33 | 4:39:43 | |
not a criticism of the people who
brought forward this amendment, but | 4:39:43 | 4:39:48 | |
I think, as we know, the way we deal
with legislation in our houses, | 4:39:48 | 4:39:53 | |
sometimes an amendment can be
improved when further considered. | 4:39:53 | 4:40:01 | |
And the concerns of the petitioners
are that the duty on the | 4:40:01 | 4:40:07 | |
commissioners, though it is a good
idea, it gives too much discretion | 4:40:07 | 4:40:10 | |
to the commission is over, for
example, the Constitution of the | 4:40:10 | 4:40:14 | |
proposed navigation advisory
committee. | 4:40:14 | 4:40:21 | |
They think that all many further
consideration and criteria as to the | 4:40:21 | 4:40:25 | |
election and effectiveness of the
committee's advice. The fact the | 4:40:25 | 4:40:29 | |
committee is to consist of persons
appointed by the commissioners who | 4:40:29 | 4:40:32 | |
appeared to be to the commissioners,
representatives put full control | 4:40:32 | 4:40:37 | |
over the membership of the proposed
committee, firmly within the | 4:40:37 | 4:40:41 | |
commissioner's discretion. And if I
looked at amendment number six, that | 4:40:41 | 4:40:48 | |
deals with that particular point,
because amendment number six would | 4:40:48 | 4:40:53 | |
change subsection number two of
section three so that instead of | 4:40:53 | 4:41:01 | |
saying the committee is to consist
of persons appointed by the | 4:41:01 | 4:41:04 | |
commissioners who appeared to the
commissioners to be taken to get a | 4:41:04 | 4:41:08 | |
representative, it would actually
say that who are representative. | 4:41:08 | 4:41:12 | |
What could be the problem was not
that straightforward English | 4:41:12 | 4:41:16 | |
language. Why aren't we going to
have a committee consistent -- | 4:41:16 | 4:41:19 | |
consisted of burst and appointed who
are representative of recreational | 4:41:19 | 4:41:23 | |
motor boating interest in the
waterways, the interest of | 4:41:23 | 4:41:27 | |
individuals who use the vessels and
other navigation issues etc. Why | 4:41:27 | 4:41:30 | |
have such this expression when a
plain English would suffice? I think | 4:41:30 | 4:41:43 | |
the honourable gentleman for the
speech he has given and the point | 4:41:43 | 4:41:45 | |
he's making but would he agree that
slight danger with this amendment if | 4:41:45 | 4:41:49 | |
it says are representative of all
the items meaning someone would have | 4:41:49 | 4:41:52 | |
to represent all those areas when
the whole point of a representative | 4:41:52 | 4:41:54 | |
committee without people who
represent the friend areas, the same | 4:41:54 | 4:41:59 | |
way as we all represent different
uncertainties even though we have | 4:41:59 | 4:42:01 | |
the same duty as a member. The point
my honourable friend makes is a | 4:42:01 | 4:42:06 | |
brilliant one but is nothing to do
with this. Because actually, what it | 4:42:06 | 4:42:11 | |
says is it is not a question of what
they are representative of, because | 4:42:11 | 4:42:16 | |
that spells out. It's a question of
whether they are representative of | 4:42:16 | 4:42:21 | |
those groups set out or whether they
appeared to the commissioners to be | 4:42:21 | 4:42:26 | |
representative of. It seems to me
that it is here, you should be quite | 4:42:26 | 4:42:31 | |
easy to establish whether someone is
representative of these particular | 4:42:31 | 4:42:34 | |
interest, rather than appearing to
be commissioners to be | 4:42:34 | 4:42:37 | |
representative of them, but anyway
that is my response to my honourable | 4:42:37 | 4:42:43 | |
friend's intervention. I had
intended to make a point of order | 4:42:43 | 4:42:53 | |
when he stopped speaking. On the
point of early -- order, earlier | 4:42:53 | 4:42:58 | |
today Toys "R" Us announced the
company has gone into | 4:42:58 | 4:43:02 | |
administration, ramifications in my
constituency. I spent majority of | 4:43:02 | 4:43:08 | |
the day time to get in touch with
administers with no success. Can I | 4:43:08 | 4:43:11 | |
ask if you have been given any
advancement of a statement now and | 4:43:11 | 4:43:15 | |
how can members of Parliament do
their job if they cannot get in | 4:43:15 | 4:43:18 | |
touch with the company to seek
security for the staff that for | 4:43:18 | 4:43:20 | |
them? Normally I would not take the
point of order but as Christopher | 4:43:20 | 4:43:27 | |
has stopped I recognise that would
be a frustration not to get it. | 4:43:27 | 4:43:30 | |
First of all, it's on the record
now. I have been given no notice | 4:43:30 | 4:43:36 | |
from ministerial statement about
this series issue of Toys "R" Us but | 4:43:36 | 4:43:39 | |
I recognise you are representing
your constituents and I hope the | 4:43:39 | 4:43:42 | |
message has gone loud and clear that
Toys "R" Us should be waking up with | 4:43:42 | 4:43:46 | |
the member of Parliament to ensure
that you can represent the workers | 4:43:46 | 4:43:48 | |
right there. Sir Christopher. Mr
Deputy Speaker, thank you. | 4:43:48 | 4:43:54 | |
Unfortunately my children are so old
that they don't benefit from visits | 4:43:54 | 4:44:00 | |
to Toys "R" Us, but anyway it's very
sad when any long-established | 4:44:00 | 4:44:06 | |
business goes into administration.
Mr Deputy Speaker... In terms of the | 4:44:06 | 4:44:22 | |
wording of this about the weather
people are representative or who | 4:44:22 | 4:44:27 | |
appeared to be to the commissioners
to be I wondered whether my | 4:44:27 | 4:44:30 | |
honourable friend thought the
commissioners might hear some kind | 4:44:30 | 4:44:34 | |
of legal action on the basis of
whether or not somebody could be | 4:44:34 | 4:44:37 | |
determined to be a representative
and how that might be the case and | 4:44:37 | 4:44:41 | |
that somebody might say I don't
think these people are | 4:44:41 | 4:44:46 | |
representative for X Y and Z and
therefore it puts the qualification | 4:44:46 | 4:44:49 | |
in to help them get out of a
potentially sticky situation. I | 4:44:49 | 4:44:53 | |
wonder if that was the explanation
for why it was worded as it was. I | 4:44:53 | 4:45:00 | |
think it's a more plausible
explanation than the one being put | 4:45:00 | 4:45:02 | |
forward by our honourable friend. I
think we said enough about that. We | 4:45:02 | 4:45:08 | |
will hear what our honourable friend
thinks about it when he comes to | 4:45:08 | 4:45:12 | |
mind up a response to this debate.
-- wind up. As far as the other | 4:45:12 | 4:45:20 | |
amendment six, seven and eight are
concerned to clause three, the | 4:45:20 | 4:45:28 | |
petitioners are concerned that the
requirement that the commissioners | 4:45:28 | 4:45:34 | |
must take the committee's views into
consideration has limited use | 4:45:34 | 4:45:39 | |
because the commissioners could say
that they have taken those views | 4:45:39 | 4:45:43 | |
into consideration but found them to
be of no value. The only remedy for | 4:45:43 | 4:45:47 | |
in such failure to take the
committee's these properly into | 4:45:47 | 4:45:51 | |
account would be judicial review
which is strictly time-limited, | 4:45:51 | 4:45:54 | |
expensive and hugely unreliable.
With historic by as they think in | 4:45:54 | 4:46:00 | |
favour of authorities. I don't know
about that, but certainly they are | 4:46:00 | 4:46:05 | |
right in saying that judicial review
is a long and expensive way of | 4:46:05 | 4:46:12 | |
seeking redress. So, in the lives of
those concerns, I put forward | 4:46:12 | 4:46:18 | |
amendment number seven, which says
that instead of the commissioners, | 4:46:18 | 4:46:22 | |
this is in subsection six of clause
number three, instead of the | 4:46:22 | 4:46:28 | |
Commissioner requiring commissioners
must take into consideration any | 4:46:28 | 4:46:30 | |
matter, the commissioners must give
full consideration because there's a | 4:46:30 | 4:46:36 | |
difference between taking into
consideration and giving | 4:46:36 | 4:46:38 | |
consideration is seems to me, and
that if the commissioners give full | 4:46:38 | 4:46:43 | |
consideration to any matter that
would be useful and to reinforce | 4:46:43 | 4:46:48 | |
that point, at the end, amendment
number eight which would add at the | 4:46:48 | 4:46:53 | |
end, they give full consideration to
any matter, recommendation, | 4:46:53 | 4:46:56 | |
representation which may from time
to time be referred or made to them | 4:46:56 | 4:46:59 | |
by the committee and the Sobhi
amendment number eight and in the | 4:46:59 | 4:47:01 | |
advent of -- event of not accepting
such representation or | 4:47:01 | 4:47:06 | |
recommendation give full reason for
that decision. It seems to me that | 4:47:06 | 4:47:09 | |
what provide the sort of protection
that the petitioners are seeking and | 4:47:09 | 4:47:15 | |
would actually strengthen clause
three and make clause three and even | 4:47:15 | 4:47:21 | |
more effective addition to this bill
than it is currently. Turning now to | 4:47:21 | 4:47:31 | |
amendment clause four and amendment
nine, amendment nine would be to | 4:47:31 | 4:47:39 | |
leave out subsection number two of
clause four, and this is in essence | 4:47:39 | 4:47:52 | |
a probing amendment to draw
attention to this whole issue, | 4:47:52 | 4:47:57 | |
because as my honourable friend said
in an earlier intervention, this | 4:47:57 | 4:48:01 | |
whole issue of charges and
constraints upon the way in which | 4:48:01 | 4:48:05 | |
charges can be made is a useful
amendment to the Bill. But I'm | 4:48:05 | 4:48:12 | |
suggesting that it could be linked
more specifically with each of the | 4:48:12 | 4:48:17 | |
different uses for it which charges
will be recoverable, and therefore | 4:48:17 | 4:48:24 | |
in amendment number ten, I'm
suggesting that in exercising the | 4:48:24 | 4:48:31 | |
power and subs -- power under
subsection 18 rather than the will | 4:48:31 | 4:48:35 | |
of section one the commissioners
must aim to secure that taking | 4:48:35 | 4:48:39 | |
one... Does not exceed the
annualized cost incurred by | 4:48:39 | 4:48:47 | |
commissioners in respect of
navigation under the navigation act | 4:48:47 | 4:48:49 | |
and it seems that that is relating
to the use of any waterway by any | 4:48:49 | 4:48:55 | |
vessel. Those would be the charges
for the use of the waterway and they | 4:48:55 | 4:48:59 | |
would link indirectly with the
functions in respect of navigation | 4:48:59 | 4:49:04 | |
under the navigation act. I'm a much
more dubious about the linking in | 4:49:04 | 4:49:11 | |
the reasonable charges for the
provision of services and facilities | 4:49:11 | 4:49:17 | |
in respect of the waterways and
their banks because those... They | 4:49:17 | 4:49:22 | |
not linked in with taking... They're
not separated out from the more | 4:49:22 | 4:49:30 | |
general and nor is there a
requirement for registration of any | 4:49:30 | 4:49:37 | |
vessel under navigation bylaws. It
seems to me that those charges | 4:49:37 | 4:49:43 | |
should be separately identified and
accounted for and undergo the test | 4:49:43 | 4:49:52 | |
of taking one financial year with
another that the charges under those | 4:49:52 | 4:49:55 | |
subsections should not exceed the
annualized cost. So, this is a | 4:49:55 | 4:50:02 | |
refinement of clause four, but I
think it would actually improve | 4:50:02 | 4:50:12 | |
clause number four significantly.
And if one looks at amendment number | 4:50:12 | 4:50:23 | |
11... Again, this is dealing with
this issue, but that refers to the | 4:50:23 | 4:50:37 | |
annualized issue and then what I
wanted to do also was draw attention | 4:50:37 | 4:50:46 | |
to amendment number 12, which covers
that as well saying that | 4:50:46 | 4:50:51 | |
commissioners may revise, weight or
remove any charge pics under | 4:50:51 | 4:50:53 | |
subsection one AA in different
charges may be fixed for different | 4:50:53 | 4:50:59 | |
cases or classes. -- 1A. It would be
extending the discretion may have, | 4:50:59 | 4:51:06 | |
but making sure there were specific
to the different categories of | 4:51:06 | 4:51:10 | |
activity for which they can recover
charges. Amendment number 13 is | 4:51:10 | 4:51:20 | |
again a probing amendment. It is to
leave out subsection number four. I | 4:51:20 | 4:51:28 | |
was wondering whether we could hear
some more explanation as to why the | 4:51:28 | 4:51:33 | |
commissioners want to make use of
the services and facilities referred | 4:51:33 | 4:51:36 | |
to in subsection 1B subject to such
terms and conditions as may be | 4:51:36 | 4:51:44 | |
specified in writing and I'm sure
that it would be Fozz -- possible to | 4:51:44 | 4:51:48 | |
get an explanation of that. I think
the most radical amendment that I | 4:51:48 | 4:51:55 | |
put forward in relation to clause
number four, and I hope this will | 4:51:55 | 4:51:59 | |
find favour with members of the
House right across the House, and | 4:51:59 | 4:52:04 | |
that is amendment number 14 at the
end which we say no charge of the | 4:52:04 | 4:52:11 | |
parable in respect to these of a
waterway by a vessel being used by a | 4:52:11 | 4:52:15 | |
person whose registered disabled. Mr
Deputy Speaker, the reason I raised | 4:52:15 | 4:52:22 | |
it is because it's quite an issue
about disability and the use of | 4:52:22 | 4:52:30 | |
waterways and the use of powers
similar to the powers which are | 4:52:30 | 4:52:35 | |
being sought by the promoters of
this bill. And those powers have on | 4:52:35 | 4:52:45 | |
occasions than I think one can say
abused, and people who are disabled | 4:52:45 | 4:52:53 | |
have found themselves pillared and
discriminated against quite | 4:52:53 | 4:53:03 | |
severely. And why should it not be
possible to exempt disabled people | 4:53:03 | 4:53:10 | |
from the provisions of these
charges? There is a press cutting | 4:53:10 | 4:53:17 | |
that I've been sent from April 2015,
from Wiltshire, where a disabled | 4:53:17 | 4:53:25 | |
boat owner living on the canal was
faced with up to £76,000 in cost as | 4:53:25 | 4:53:35 | |
a result of action being taken,
which the people who are acting on | 4:53:35 | 4:53:42 | |
his behalf, the trust, they took the
view that it was a... Instead of | 4:53:42 | 4:53:56 | |
allowing this disabled individual
who was living on incapacity | 4:53:56 | 4:54:04 | |
benefits and disability living
allowance is, instead of allowing | 4:54:04 | 4:54:07 | |
him to repair his boat over a period
of time, they imposed strict | 4:54:07 | 4:54:16 | |
conditions of his license and
required him to vacate not only his | 4:54:16 | 4:54:21 | |
boat, but also what was his home and
insult was added to injury by the | 4:54:21 | 4:54:28 | |
fact that he was denied legal aid
and the legal officer of the | 4:54:28 | 4:54:36 | |
national chattels association
represented him instead -- national | 4:54:36 | 4:54:42 | |
travellers Association. I'm just
waiting to see how it links in with | 4:54:42 | 4:54:46 | |
the Bill. It linked in with
amendment number 14, because | 4:54:46 | 4:54:51 | |
amendment number 14 would exempt...
I'm more bothered about the canal | 4:54:51 | 4:54:57 | |
and that particular individual was
not actually on the middle levels or | 4:54:57 | 4:55:01 | |
affected by it, so I understand in
reference, but not in detail. I | 4:55:01 | 4:55:05 | |
accept we don't want to go into
anymore detail than I've already | 4:55:05 | 4:55:09 | |
done, Mr Deputy Speaker. But the
analogy is that the powers that are | 4:55:09 | 4:55:15 | |
being sought in this bill by the
middle level commissioners are | 4:55:15 | 4:55:18 | |
almost identical to the powers which
have already been obtained by other | 4:55:18 | 4:55:24 | |
organizations such as the canal and
river trust which operates on the | 4:55:24 | 4:55:31 | |
Kenneth Navin canal. I get way. | 4:55:31 | 4:55:36 | |
Can you tell me, is there a serious
demand from disabled people from the | 4:55:36 | 4:55:44 | |
community to actually have this
extension? Because I have a number | 4:55:44 | 4:55:47 | |
of disabled constituents, and as I
have pointed out, Mr Deputy Speaker, | 4:55:47 | 4:55:57 | |
there are many versions of my
constituency who, I have not come | 4:55:57 | 4:56:05 | |
across any demand from disabled
people. We have great respect for | 4:56:05 | 4:56:11 | |
disabled community, but is he really
saying that the requirement, or | 4:56:11 | 4:56:16 | |
decide to give an exemption from the
charges, and make this much more | 4:56:16 | 4:56:21 | |
bureaucratic and also, they're very
proud and do they really want is | 4:56:21 | 4:56:27 | |
exemption? They'd only get the
exemption if they apply for it. | 4:56:27 | 4:56:34 | |
Disabled people are proud and I have
a lot of disabled members of my | 4:56:34 | 4:56:41 | |
constituency. But that does not mean
that they don't benefit or cherish | 4:56:41 | 4:56:44 | |
the ability to park their cars using
the benefit of the parking permit. | 4:56:44 | 4:56:54 | |
But the answer, the direct answer to
my honourable friends intervention, | 4:56:54 | 4:56:59 | |
I have not received any
representations prior to the speech | 4:56:59 | 4:57:03 | |
from disabled constituents of his.
If I had, I would have preferred | 4:57:03 | 4:57:07 | |
them to him. The canal and river
trust dealing with this issue in | 4:57:07 | 4:57:16 | |
Wiltshire, they accepted in
principle, that they should not have | 4:57:16 | 4:57:21 | |
enforcement taken against them, as
they would taken against an | 4:57:21 | 4:57:26 | |
able-bodied person. But they have
not yet been very keen to | 4:57:26 | 4:57:32 | |
communicate that policy to disabled
people there. But, all I can say is | 4:57:32 | 4:57:39 | |
that, when one looks at the way in
which these pounds have been used in | 4:57:39 | 4:57:43 | |
other parts of the country, and
waterways, then there is a potential | 4:57:43 | 4:57:51 | |
issue here. I've insured that it is
discussed, as we know and the other | 4:57:51 | 4:58:02 | |
place, there is even more interest
in promoting the cause of disabled | 4:58:02 | 4:58:09 | |
people than there is in this house,
I think. And it may be that when | 4:58:09 | 4:58:14 | |
this bill gets to the other place,
that they will wish to pursue the | 4:58:14 | 4:58:19 | |
content of amendment 14 if it is
accepted today. So, Mr Deputy | 4:58:19 | 4:58:28 | |
Speaker, that takes on to the
amendments 15 and 16. And these are | 4:58:28 | 4:58:39 | |
amendments, not designed to leave
out clauses five and seven, and I | 4:58:39 | 4:58:45 | |
put them in order to enable us to
have a debate on the content of | 4:58:45 | 4:58:53 | |
those clauses should it be thought
desirable. But, having regard to the | 4:58:53 | 4:59:00 | |
time, it seems to me that probably
the best thing to do would be to not | 4:59:00 | 4:59:07 | |
speak to those amendments, but to
get on and go on to one or two... My | 4:59:07 | 4:59:13 | |
honourable friend says that that is
a shame, but... Anyway! One each on | 4:59:13 | 4:59:21 | |
that one! He wanted to make a
very... Because the river depending | 4:59:21 | 4:59:35 | |
on which part of my constituents you
are, flows into this. So what causes | 4:59:35 | 4:59:41 | |
a wider issue. I think it's very
important that my honourable friend | 4:59:41 | 4:59:57 | |
has been able to put an interest in
this subject matter. In the way that | 4:59:57 | 5:00:01 | |
he has. We then get onto the
amendment number, let's turn the | 5:00:01 | 5:00:10 | |
right page over, amendment number
17, page eight clause nine, leave | 5:00:10 | 5:00:19 | |
subsection three. One can see that,
line 35, this is about when, this | 5:00:19 | 5:00:37 | |
the deal with clause nine, and what
it would do is add or remove the | 5:00:37 | 5:00:44 | |
provision that says whenever it
vehicles left, unless it is not | 5:00:44 | 5:00:55 | |
passable Centura, race and remove
the vessel. While it's quite clear, | 5:00:55 | 5:01:08 | |
and the other parts of the clause
that if a vehicle, the vessel is | 5:01:08 | 5:01:13 | |
abandoned in the waterway and is
absolutely interfering with the | 5:01:13 | 5:01:18 | |
navigation. Then obviously it needs
to be removed very quickly. But when | 5:01:18 | 5:01:22 | |
one takes into account, Mr Deputy
Speaker, the very wide definition | 5:01:22 | 5:01:27 | |
that there is of waterway, which
have already spoken, it seems to me | 5:01:27 | 5:01:34 | |
the inclusion of subsection three is
potentially oppressive. Because, it | 5:01:34 | 5:01:43 | |
means that the commission is going
to, for example, enter a Marina and | 5:01:43 | 5:01:51 | |
take action and remove the vessel at
a considerable cost. No more than 28 | 5:01:51 | 5:02:04 | |
days of notice. So that amendment is
to leave out that power from the | 5:02:04 | 5:02:10 | |
bill. And clause... Can I just come
on out to close 11, which is to deal | 5:02:10 | 5:02:27 | |
with the requirements of
registration and clause page 12, | 5:02:27 | 5:02:37 | |
clause 11. It includes a very
important amendment, which is | 5:02:37 | 5:02:47 | |
promoted by the cruising club and
others, and this relates to the | 5:02:47 | 5:02:52 | |
level of charges that can be...
Increased in any one year. And what | 5:02:52 | 5:03:04 | |
it does is, it introduces a
requirement that such charges do not | 5:03:04 | 5:03:09 | |
increase above inflation. And the
reason for that is because many of | 5:03:09 | 5:03:16 | |
the people who are boaters and,
maybe some of them are represented | 5:03:16 | 5:03:24 | |
by my honourable friends here this
evening, many of those people are | 5:03:24 | 5:03:29 | |
not very well-off and financial
terms, and they need to be owed to | 5:03:29 | 5:03:35 | |
plan their budgets and cares and
what the costs are going to be of | 5:03:35 | 5:03:41 | |
having a vessel on the waterway,
they need to have a surgeon to for | 5:03:41 | 5:03:48 | |
example that the charges are going
to be level and cannot increase by | 5:03:48 | 5:03:52 | |
more than the rate of CPI index
every year. Mr Deputy Speaker, | 5:03:52 | 5:04:00 | |
counsel tenses, counsel | 5:04:00 | 5:04:06 | |
every year. Mr Deputy Speaker,
counsel tenses, counsel, they have | 5:04:06 | 5:04:07 | |
made some exceptions to that
recently, the general proposition is | 5:04:07 | 5:04:12 | |
that they can not be increased by
more than CPI. And then, I am going | 5:04:12 | 5:04:21 | |
to rush to the last amendment.
Because... OnNet | 5:04:21 | 5:04:32 | |
that the bill doesn't state
initially what the themes are, would | 5:04:35 | 5:04:41 | |
you not preferred the bills stayed
with that should be? As wise as I | 5:04:41 | 5:04:51 | |
would like to agree, I think the
level of fees, this got to be some | 5:04:51 | 5:04:59 | |
discretion. The level of the fees
needs to relate to the duties of the | 5:04:59 | 5:05:04 | |
game to be carried out. And funded
by the seas. -- fees. The money for | 5:05:04 | 5:05:16 | |
the fees has to be spent
particularly on navigation. You do | 5:05:16 | 5:05:26 | |
not need to explain were very
discussed, and I know you're not | 5:05:26 | 5:05:29 | |
attempting to do the. This is
amendment number 26, clause 15, | 5:05:29 | 5:05:42 | |
line... The protocol of removing
vessels, the commissioners must in | 5:05:42 | 5:05:50 | |
consultation with the navigation
adviser committee, publish and | 5:05:50 | 5:05:54 | |
maintain a protocol by virtue. In my
amendment is, instead of in | 5:05:54 | 5:06:03 | |
consultation with, in conjunction
with. Because it seems that the | 5:06:03 | 5:06:09 | |
advisory committee should be working
jointly with the commissioners, | 5:06:09 | 5:06:14 | |
rather than adjusting consultation
with the commissioners of this | 5:06:14 | 5:06:18 | |
important matter. So that, that that
amendment. And when we look at the | 5:06:18 | 5:06:35 | |
subparagraph on subsection four of
clause 14. That again is an | 5:06:35 | 5:06:41 | |
amendment to try and reduce the
powers conferred upon the | 5:06:41 | 5:06:45 | |
commissioners under way that they
have been exercise. As he said at | 5:06:45 | 5:06:53 | |
the beginning, this is a much and
improved bill compared to what it | 5:06:53 | 5:07:00 | |
was. It obviously would not be
possible to test the will of the | 5:07:00 | 5:07:06 | |
house on each one. And I'm glad that
you agree with me, Mr Deputy Speaker | 5:07:06 | 5:07:16 | |
on a proposition. But I know the
motives of the bill are worrying, | 5:07:16 | 5:07:25 | |
because you're discussing these
things today, whether night means | 5:07:25 | 5:07:28 | |
they'll be discussed further when
the bill gets to the other place. | 5:07:28 | 5:07:35 | |
And I my understanding, when the
bill goes into the other place, | 5:07:35 | 5:07:38 | |
there are many people will put in
petitions and I ensure that the | 5:07:38 | 5:07:45 | |
other place will build upon the
discussions that we are having on | 5:07:45 | 5:07:53 | |
this bill. So that eventually the
bill will be even better than it is | 5:07:53 | 5:07:56 | |
now. I beg to move clause one. | 5:07:56 | 5:08:10 | |
Thank you very much, Mr Deputy
Speaker. I am proud to respond, I | 5:08:12 | 5:08:18 | |
may not be the most conventional
way, the detailed reservation of the | 5:08:18 | 5:08:24 | |
honourable member for chair, it does
make sense, and we wish to support | 5:08:24 | 5:08:32 | |
the bill is it stands. While it is
narrow in scope, it has | 5:08:32 | 5:08:38 | |
satisfactory, and is taking place in
committee and stations at an end. | 5:08:38 | 5:08:46 | |
The mid-level of defence try to
retain | 5:08:46 | 5:08:53 | |
pass between 1663 and 1874, so we
appreciate that the legislative | 5:08:58 | 5:09:05 | |
framework want to pay the
commissioners is in need of an | 5:09:05 | 5:09:07 | |
update. Because all of the all of
the mainland is below sea level, the | 5:09:07 | 5:09:17 | |
waterways could pose a significant
risk to the estimated hundred | 5:09:17 | 5:09:21 | |
thousand people living and working
in the area. In the simplest terms, | 5:09:21 | 5:09:25 | |
this will allow the commissioners to
bring in revenue from boat owners, | 5:09:25 | 5:09:31 | |
which will be used to improve the
waterways. The agency denial which | 5:09:31 | 5:09:35 | |
are trust, all similar powers in | 5:09:35 | 5:09:39 | |
an line with his neighbours, it can
make a real difference and the | 5:09:43 | 5:09:51 | |
waterways, though I appreciate the
desire from local boat users from | 5:09:51 | 5:09:56 | |
facilities as he heard, this will
allow the commissioners to raise | 5:09:56 | 5:09:59 | |
revenue to deliver this. The chief
executive commissioners, has said | 5:09:59 | 5:10:05 | |
around 1500 vessels and use their
looks every year, and are on a | 5:10:05 | 5:10:10 | |
hundred bucks are hiding unlicensed
on the waterway. He believes that is | 5:10:10 | 5:10:14 | |
the largest reservoir in the
country. I cannot something | 5:10:14 | 5:10:22 | |
organisation but owners said they
should be done I cannot think bill | 5:10:22 | 5:10:29 | |
could be a money gathering excess of
the commissions. However there are | 5:10:29 | 5:10:32 | |
positions and the bill, as outlined
already which prevent the | 5:10:32 | 5:10:40 | |
commissioners from raising more
navigation revenue then they spend | 5:10:40 | 5:10:43 | |
on navigation. This is not simply a
matter of money gathering, and that | 5:10:43 | 5:10:50 | |
proper safeguards are in place. They
also noted that the waterways is | 5:10:50 | 5:11:01 | |
associated, the residential boat
owners Association, the Association | 5:11:01 | 5:11:04 | |
of waterway cruising clubs, would
support the bill, I understand they | 5:11:04 | 5:11:10 | |
remain in support. So the detailed
reservations, at some of the | 5:11:10 | 5:11:16 | |
interventions from others. | 5:11:16 | 5:11:22 | |
I wondered whether or not she had
any sympathy for any of the | 5:11:22 | 5:11:26 | |
amendments put forward by my
honourable friend and in particular | 5:11:26 | 5:11:29 | |
the one about the no charge being
payable for the use of the waterway | 5:11:29 | 5:11:32 | |
by a vessel being used by a person
whose registered disabled. Is that | 5:11:32 | 5:11:36 | |
not something that the Labour Party
would welcome? And grateful for that | 5:11:36 | 5:11:42 | |
intervention. Andersen he makes a
valid point and we will want to | 5:11:42 | 5:11:45 | |
increase the accessibility so that
everyone can enjoy the waterways. It | 5:11:45 | 5:11:49 | |
is certainly something we would
consider further in later | 5:11:49 | 5:11:51 | |
discussions on the Bill but not
something that we will be seeing go | 5:11:51 | 5:11:54 | |
to a vote later today. Taking all
this into account, Mr Speaker, Mr | 5:11:54 | 5:12:00 | |
Deputy Speaker, we are satisfied
this bill is sensible in updating | 5:12:00 | 5:12:04 | |
the legal framework that sets out
the role of the middle level | 5:12:04 | 5:12:07 | |
commissioners bringing them into
line with what now standard practice | 5:12:07 | 5:12:11 | |
across comparable waterways. Despite
its unusual journey through | 5:12:11 | 5:12:14 | |
Westminster we have no problems in
supporting this bill this afternoon. | 5:12:14 | 5:12:19 | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It's a
pleasure to get another opportunity | 5:12:19 | 5:12:23 | |
to speak in relation to this bill.
Given its already been through a | 5:12:23 | 5:12:26 | |
second readings I will focus my
remarks on the amendments we have | 5:12:26 | 5:12:30 | |
today and the changes made in
committee. As it's been referred to | 5:12:30 | 5:12:35 | |
by the honourable member for Halifax
there's been a number of positive | 5:12:35 | 5:12:37 | |
changes that were made in this bill
to respond to the petitioners | 5:12:37 | 5:12:40 | |
concern and I was grateful to hear
in the opening remarks from the | 5:12:40 | 5:12:45 | |
honourable member how he referred to
the fact that there have been | 5:12:45 | 5:12:47 | |
changes made in people had been
listening to what was said. But I do | 5:12:47 | 5:12:52 | |
think it's appropriate to briefly go
through and say why I don't think | 5:12:52 | 5:12:56 | |
it's appropriate for the amendment
and the New Clause is proposed to be | 5:12:56 | 5:13:01 | |
accepted. Briefly in terms of New
Clause one it sets a minimum | 5:13:01 | 5:13:03 | |
navigation that's lower than the one
under current legislation. New | 5:13:03 | 5:13:13 | |
Clause at number two, three, four
and five referred to specific | 5:13:13 | 5:13:16 | |
facilities that could be provided.
The thing is it was suggested in one | 5:13:16 | 5:13:20 | |
of the interventions made it does
not seem logical to pursue on the | 5:13:20 | 5:13:23 | |
face of statute where we have things
like a coin-operated water shower. | 5:13:23 | 5:13:27 | |
It also means we have dangers of
this legislation becoming completely | 5:13:27 | 5:13:32 | |
outdated if it fits on the front of
a primary piece of legislation. It | 5:13:32 | 5:13:36 | |
does also make sense for the uses by
the mechanisms proposed in the Bill | 5:13:36 | 5:13:41 | |
to be able to discuss what are the
appropriate facilities? And also for | 5:13:41 | 5:13:45 | |
example by including some of these
items it means that if they don't | 5:13:45 | 5:13:49 | |
get planning permission for example
it could render particular powers | 5:13:49 | 5:13:52 | |
any effective and therefore I would
urge the House to reject all the | 5:13:52 | 5:13:56 | |
Clause is proposed. Very briefly I
will give way. I certainly take the | 5:13:56 | 5:14:03 | |
point he makes on the other specific
points, but New Clause five does not | 5:14:03 | 5:14:08 | |
actually have anything specific, it
just maintains that something should | 5:14:08 | 5:14:13 | |
be in good repair and working order
so I wondered if that New Clause was | 5:14:13 | 5:14:17 | |
not accepted, what with the
appropriate remedy be for the | 5:14:17 | 5:14:22 | |
boaters to make sure they were not
paying for something they weren't | 5:14:22 | 5:14:24 | |
able to actually use? I think the
honourable member for his | 5:14:24 | 5:14:28 | |
intervention. I think what we are
clear about is the way New Clause | 5:14:28 | 5:14:32 | |
four was amended means that income
can only been used for navigation | 5:14:32 | 5:14:37 | |
purposes and income navigation
purposes, and ultimately there | 5:14:37 | 5:14:40 | |
becomes a chicken and egg situation.
If the commissioners are going to | 5:14:40 | 5:14:44 | |
provide the type of facilities
people want to see on the middle | 5:14:44 | 5:14:47 | |
level, in consultation with
navigation users, there will need to | 5:14:47 | 5:14:50 | |
be money raised to provide those
facilities. The alternative is to | 5:14:50 | 5:14:55 | |
ask those paying for drainage to
provide the secured -- the abilities | 5:14:55 | 5:14:59 | |
to be provided initially which is
neither a fair or applicable way of | 5:14:59 | 5:15:03 | |
looking to get the resources into
actually pay for the facilities to | 5:15:03 | 5:15:07 | |
be provided. This cannot be a money
raising exercise. It's absolutely | 5:15:07 | 5:15:10 | |
clear what the purpose of any money
raised by navigation are for. People | 5:15:10 | 5:15:16 | |
are already paying council tax in
terms of drainage and via a. On the | 5:15:16 | 5:15:23 | |
question of navigation I wonder if
you could help me understand whether | 5:15:23 | 5:15:29 | |
this historical public right of
navigation by extending those powers | 5:15:29 | 5:15:33 | |
into privately owned waters and
private Marines, would that give the | 5:15:33 | 5:15:36 | |
middle level commissioners complete
control to charge boats with | 5:15:36 | 5:15:43 | |
licensed these? I thank the
honourable member for Peterborough | 5:15:43 | 5:15:47 | |
for her intervention and an
amendment was made to the billing | 5:15:47 | 5:15:50 | |
committee to make clear that where
someone owns the waterways and | 5:15:50 | 5:15:53 | |
branded properties only there is
that would not extending the powers | 5:15:53 | 5:15:57 | |
to there. In terms of the marinas
themselves it's worth noting they | 5:15:57 | 5:16:01 | |
permitted that promoted the Bill the
marinas covered have wish to be | 5:16:01 | 5:16:05 | |
included within this. In case of the
marinas there is no definition | 5:16:05 | 5:16:09 | |
between the water. You're not
talking a lock or key, we are | 5:16:09 | 5:16:13 | |
talking there's no waterway so there
has been a wish to manage it as a | 5:16:13 | 5:16:16 | |
whole system. For example
registration applies across a lot to | 5:16:16 | 5:16:20 | |
me don't have different safety
standards are different insurance | 5:16:20 | 5:16:23 | |
requirements which should be a
benefit to her constituents. Coming | 5:16:23 | 5:16:27 | |
on to burst of the amendments,
amendment number one -- first of the | 5:16:27 | 5:16:32 | |
imminent. He talked about extending
the time period for bringing this | 5:16:32 | 5:16:35 | |
bill into effect. It's worth noting
that in terms of many of the | 5:16:35 | 5:16:39 | |
provisions around construction and
use -- he's their the month | 5:16:39 | 5:16:44 | |
transition period has been
undertaken but he does not make | 5:16:44 | 5:16:46 | |
sense to lay off all the provisions
of this bill for that link the | 5:16:46 | 5:16:50 | |
period. For example promoters of new
duty to have regard to the interest | 5:16:50 | 5:16:53 | |
of both dwellers bass boat dwellers,
that would not make sense to delay. | 5:16:53 | 5:16:57 | |
In relation to amendment number two,
I think it is quite clear, where did | 5:16:57 | 5:17:05 | |
the any other event that come from?
It is similar to the requirements | 5:17:05 | 5:17:09 | |
under the environment agency's
powers to control discharges into | 5:17:09 | 5:17:12 | |
water for work purposes under
section 163 of the water resources | 5:17:12 | 5:17:17 | |
act, 1991. If the well-established
definition I hope that will reassure | 5:17:17 | 5:17:20 | |
him. In terms of amendment number
three, he said it was a probing | 5:17:20 | 5:17:26 | |
amendment. The issue is adding
electric vehicles onto the end of a | 5:17:26 | 5:17:29 | |
provision that also includes power
vehicles under sail. I think does | 5:17:29 | 5:17:34 | |
not take account where technology
could go as he alluded to in the | 5:17:34 | 5:17:37 | |
fact that electric motors are
becoming much more powerful, | 5:17:37 | 5:17:40 | |
certainly far more powerful than a
sealed vessel ended up not make | 5:17:40 | 5:17:43 | |
sense for that to be excluded
although as I say I noted he said it | 5:17:43 | 5:17:48 | |
was a probing amendment. Amendment
number four, it would actually have | 5:17:48 | 5:17:54 | |
issues that the promoters would find
unacceptable as it potentially them | 5:17:54 | 5:18:01 | |
-- removes the need for a static
vessel to meet construction and | 5:18:01 | 5:18:04 | |
safety standards or insurance
requirements. I think given the | 5:18:04 | 5:18:08 | |
issues we have been debating over
the past year view left with a | 5:18:08 | 5:18:11 | |
indispensable that houseboats don't
have those. Moving on to amendment | 5:18:11 | 5:18:16 | |
number five. This extends the
commissioner's powers in an odd way | 5:18:16 | 5:18:21 | |
and could see them having to be
required to dig out virtually every | 5:18:21 | 5:18:27 | |
watercourse in the area, which is
not actually unnavigable course, so | 5:18:27 | 5:18:30 | |
again that's not an amendment would
suggest. The idea of having a | 5:18:30 | 5:18:36 | |
waterway sonnet does not really
reflect the fact that the idea that | 5:18:36 | 5:18:40 | |
taking care of by the change made
around someone's own boat in their | 5:18:40 | 5:18:44 | |
own property and only they use that.
I would be very different parking it | 5:18:44 | 5:18:47 | |
in a marina for example, the
equivalent of parking it in a public | 5:18:47 | 5:18:50 | |
car park. Coming onto some of the
other amendments. Number six, I made | 5:18:50 | 5:18:59 | |
the point in my intervention about
how this could require that this | 5:18:59 | 5:19:05 | |
would potentially allow challenges,
the honourable member pointed out | 5:19:05 | 5:19:09 | |
around who had been appointed, if
someone felt that they did not | 5:19:09 | 5:19:13 | |
represent them. We did not yield...
I don't feel that an appropriate or | 5:19:13 | 5:19:16 | |
helpful addition to the Bill and
that would potentially make it easy | 5:19:16 | 5:19:21 | |
to challenge the advisory committee
and frustrate its establishment. | 5:19:21 | 5:19:26 | |
Coming onto his further amendments,
nine, 16 and 22. One of the reasons | 5:19:26 | 5:19:36 | |
for not wishing to accept these
amendments is that the point of | 5:19:36 | 5:19:41 | |
making this a practical power is to
have a simple registration claim | 5:19:41 | 5:19:46 | |
that can be enforced. Getting into
an argument about whether a boat is | 5:19:46 | 5:19:49 | |
being used or not seems neither
sensible nor appropriate, | 5:19:49 | 5:19:53 | |
particularly if we are talking about
looking to have basic construction | 5:19:53 | 5:19:57 | |
and safety standards and insurance
standards. In exactly the same way | 5:19:57 | 5:20:01 | |
as if you park a car on a public
road it does not matter if you are | 5:20:01 | 5:20:04 | |
driving or not it needs to be
roadworthy and have a vehicle tax. | 5:20:04 | 5:20:10 | |
Therefore this is a president that's
similar in other areas of | 5:20:10 | 5:20:14 | |
legislation, so again I would
suggest that these amendments are | 5:20:14 | 5:20:17 | |
both unwelcome and unnecessary. In
terms of amendments ten and 11, the | 5:20:17 | 5:20:25 | |
Bill makes it very clear, the
provision and how the cost from | 5:20:25 | 5:20:33 | |
navigation would be used to fund
benefits for navigation. Therefore | 5:20:33 | 5:20:37 | |
again I don't believe either of
these are necessary. As for | 5:20:37 | 5:20:41 | |
amendments 12 and 13 then we do
not... It does not seem | 5:20:41 | 5:20:48 | |
unreasonable. For example allowing
the commissioners to set conditions | 5:20:48 | 5:20:52 | |
on use facilities such as clean
showers afterwards and not abusing | 5:20:52 | 5:20:56 | |
waste facilities, does not seem an
unreasonable thing for them to wish | 5:20:56 | 5:21:00 | |
to do and could completely
undermined the purposes of providing | 5:21:00 | 5:21:03 | |
those facilities if they are not
able to provide a basic regulation | 5:21:03 | 5:21:07 | |
system for how they are used, which
have been common in many, many other | 5:21:07 | 5:21:13 | |
environments. Amendment number 14, I
appreciate the honourable member's | 5:21:13 | 5:21:17 | |
process for ensuring disabled people
have a strong voice in this chamber | 5:21:17 | 5:21:21 | |
and I know along with the Member for
Shipley, he's a passionate advocate | 5:21:21 | 5:21:25 | |
around you quality had his pursuit
of the women and equality committee. | 5:21:25 | 5:21:28 | |
The one way I would make, it's quite
flawed because it refers to -- the | 5:21:28 | 5:21:34 | |
1.I would make, it refers to a
registered disabled when the | 5:21:34 | 5:21:37 | |
registered disabled person with a
polity by the disability act so as | 5:21:37 | 5:21:43 | |
the House would not be sensible to
bring that in. I would also urge the | 5:21:43 | 5:21:48 | |
House to reject... Very briefly. I'm
very grateful. I appreciate his | 5:21:48 | 5:21:54 | |
ability to find a technical reason
why he should not accept the | 5:21:54 | 5:21:58 | |
amendment, but does he accept the
principle behind the amendment? We | 5:21:58 | 5:22:04 | |
are in report stage and the jobs
look at the technical detail of the | 5:22:04 | 5:22:10 | |
Bill. Do I support the principle? I
think it's about my own counsel for | 5:22:10 | 5:22:15 | |
example or does not offer a parking
concession and fees to those who | 5:22:15 | 5:22:20 | |
hold a blue badge on the inability
to use reserved space is very close | 5:22:20 | 5:22:25 | |
so that principle is established in
many areas, so again I don't think | 5:22:25 | 5:22:28 | |
the principle of this is one to take
for. This is not about for example | 5:22:28 | 5:22:33 | |
someone needing an extra facility
because they are disabled. This is | 5:22:33 | 5:22:37 | |
about a boat on the navigation and
wherever they pay the same charge as | 5:22:37 | 5:22:41 | |
everyone else, that treated exactly
the same. -- effectively treated | 5:22:41 | 5:22:46 | |
exactly the same. It does not seem
to make any sense to remove the | 5:22:46 | 5:22:50 | |
ability to promote reciprocal
arrangements and could end up | 5:22:50 | 5:22:53 | |
costing boat owners more if they
have to have separate licenses and | 5:22:53 | 5:22:59 | |
separate registration and different
standards, so again I would urge the | 5:22:59 | 5:23:02 | |
House to reject amendments 15 and
16. Coming onto amendment 17, 18, 19 | 5:23:02 | 5:23:08 | |
and 20, again there will be a
protocol put in place so I don't | 5:23:08 | 5:23:11 | |
accept the suggestion that the
existing powers would be oppressive. | 5:23:11 | 5:23:16 | |
Removal of the health boat would
only be done in the last result in | 5:23:16 | 5:23:20 | |
where it's proportionate to do so.
-- of a houseboat. Coming to a | 5:23:20 | 5:23:24 | |
conclusion, amendment number 23
seems to make little sense to only | 5:23:24 | 5:23:28 | |
apply to this particular cap to the
application fee and not the | 5:23:28 | 5:23:33 | |
registration fee, it could produce
reverse a long one and again suggest | 5:23:33 | 5:23:38 | |
it ejected. The same goes, he talked
about amendment number 26. My own | 5:23:38 | 5:23:43 | |
view is that this would confuse the
Bill as if things are being done in | 5:23:43 | 5:23:51 | |
conjunction with rather than
consultation. If someone wishes to | 5:23:51 | 5:23:55 | |
take legal action would've a ticket
against? They could take it against | 5:23:55 | 5:23:59 | |
members of the navigator a committee
-- and it could act as a deterrent | 5:23:59 | 5:24:05 | |
for anyone wanting to be involved.
Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many | 5:24:05 | 5:24:10 | |
good reasons for this bill to pass.
It's been examined in great depth in | 5:24:10 | 5:24:15 | |
opposed a bill committee and on the
floor of this House. I thank the | 5:24:15 | 5:24:19 | |
honourable member for Christchurch
where his great interest in the | 5:24:19 | 5:24:21 | |
scrutiny he put the scrutiny he put
this bill do but I would urge the | 5:24:21 | 5:24:24 | |
House and members here to reject all
the new clauses and all the | 5:24:24 | 5:24:27 | |
amendment is necessary to do so.
Thank you. David Rydings. Thank you, | 5:24:27 | 5:24:33 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased to
make the very short speech in | 5:24:33 | 5:24:36 | |
support of the Bill on amended. I do
want to congratulate the honourable | 5:24:36 | 5:24:42 | |
member for Torbay and those who sat
in on the committee stage. They seem | 5:24:42 | 5:24:47 | |
to have done a great deal of clever
and thoughtful work. I know very | 5:24:47 | 5:24:56 | |
little about the middle level bill,
but I do know a lot about the canal | 5:24:56 | 5:25:02 | |
where we had similar issues about
leading to update and the | 5:25:02 | 5:25:06 | |
arrangements of who was able to more
the boat and who was able to | 5:25:06 | 5:25:11 | |
therefore be charged for facilities.
That was done without some | 5:25:11 | 5:25:15 | |
difficulty, because there was
opposition, but eventually people | 5:25:15 | 5:25:19 | |
have seen the sense and that does
include things like shutting the | 5:25:19 | 5:25:22 | |
canal on certain days when there is
very limited need for use of that | 5:25:22 | 5:25:28 | |
canal, to allow people to dare I
say, get easier passage over the | 5:25:28 | 5:25:33 | |
canal because we have lots of
bridges, and I think it is right and | 5:25:33 | 5:25:38 | |
proper that these particular
arrangements should be visited from | 5:25:38 | 5:25:42 | |
time to time to make sure that we
had a fit for purpose canal system | 5:25:42 | 5:25:47 | |
and the waterway system in general
so I would like to add my own | 5:25:47 | 5:25:51 | |
congratulations for the work you
have done and to make sure that this | 5:25:51 | 5:25:54 | |
passes through without amendment. | 5:25:54 | 5:25:59 | |
I had the pleasure of taking
evidence on this legislation, I and | 5:25:59 | 5:26:09 | |
colleagues and two from the
opposition have considered the | 5:26:09 | 5:26:12 | |
objections in great detail, and this
is made in response. I think the | 5:26:12 | 5:26:17 | |
honourable friend for their conduct
as well. Before the House strikes a | 5:26:17 | 5:26:25 | |
balance between a clear need, and
the legitimate concerns for those, | 5:26:25 | 5:26:33 | |
recommended the new middle level
bill to the house. I will give way. | 5:26:33 | 5:26:38 | |
Thank you very much for giving way.
Could they assure me that families | 5:26:38 | 5:26:45 | |
wouldn't suffer consequence and also
could you confirm that the licensed | 5:26:45 | 5:26:52 | |
the, the revenue acquired from
licence fee would be spent on their | 5:26:52 | 5:26:59 | |
facilities? The interest taken in
this particular matter. I'll be | 5:26:59 | 5:27:08 | |
going in greater detail and review,
if the interest of how strollers are | 5:27:08 | 5:27:12 | |
not take into account. The other
matter was to deal with licence | 5:27:12 | 5:27:18 | |
fees. Also within the bill is that
effectively, the money that is | 5:27:18 | 5:27:23 | |
raised on this should be spent on
navigation. And as I understand it, | 5:27:23 | 5:27:28 | |
it's likely that actually that isn't
going to be enough to cover the | 5:27:28 | 5:27:32 | |
whole costs. I said it strikes the
right balance, and it is a case that | 5:27:32 | 5:27:42 | |
we located at a level, lay down and
mid-19th century. And do not reflect | 5:27:42 | 5:27:49 | |
the reality of the modern world.
This will bring it into line with | 5:27:49 | 5:27:55 | |
neighbouring systems, prevent the
diversion away from proper proper | 5:27:55 | 5:28:03 | |
prevention methods, and shall be
standard on all British waterways. | 5:28:03 | 5:28:07 | |
Some will reject to this bills,
because an ancient right offering | 5:28:07 | 5:28:13 | |
navigation, under close scrutiny my
constituents and I do believe | 5:28:13 | 5:28:19 | |
that,... When the previous middle
level was drafted, they were used by | 5:28:19 | 5:28:25 | |
commercial and industrial shipping.
The zones anomaly that respect. It | 5:28:25 | 5:28:33 | |
was sensible to concentrate the
navigations on commercial shipping, | 5:28:33 | 5:28:38 | |
of the today the situation entirely,
and see very little very commercial | 5:28:38 | 5:28:45 | |
traffic. It is lay right therefore
that we get... Than many of the | 5:28:45 | 5:28:56 | |
keeping the waterways now that | 5:28:56 | 5:28:57 | |
be only consideration, it also
raises concerns about the supposed | 5:29:01 | 5:29:07 | |
right to free navigation. Some can
be made not to levy, and naturally | 5:29:07 | 5:29:14 | |
when public funds may be laid out to
obtain an artificial navigation, it | 5:29:14 | 5:29:20 | |
is just those of benefit that should
pay. And remember the middle levels | 5:29:20 | 5:29:25 | |
are only navigable waterways. The
commissions are responsible for both | 5:29:25 | 5:29:36 | |
of these features, forgot their
ability to levy funds from those | 5:29:36 | 5:29:40 | |
using the waterways, we have no
choice but to maintain the right | 5:29:40 | 5:29:43 | |
diverting money for defenses. As
always basic fairness, they should | 5:29:43 | 5:29:48 | |
change. The committee heard another
important objection which I like to | 5:29:48 | 5:29:56 | |
address here. Those who paid the fee
will receive in exchange? This is a | 5:29:56 | 5:30:01 | |
perfectly reasonable concern, I like
to briefly explain how the bill has | 5:30:01 | 5:30:04 | |
entrusted. Get a commitment from the
commissioners they were not under | 5:30:04 | 5:30:08 | |
any circumstances, in fact I am told
that they will raise less than that, | 5:30:08 | 5:30:16 | |
does another they will only
undermine their own fund-raising | 5:30:16 | 5:30:21 | |
efforts and they said it to a level
that discourages the use of levels. | 5:30:21 | 5:30:27 | |
There were a man at a competitive
level and live the rest of the | 5:30:27 | 5:30:30 | |
network, and effective market. Those
using the navigations while | 5:30:30 | 5:30:38 | |
maintaining the navigations
themselves, the funds earned. A | 5:30:38 | 5:30:46 | |
president there are | 5:30:46 | 5:30:47 | |
at present, there only to public
facilities in the entire system. All | 5:30:52 | 5:30:57 | |
of these need to be paid for it does
not seem right that local taxpayers | 5:30:57 | 5:31:03 | |
are asked to fund these improvements
and the actual beneficiaries can | 5:31:03 | 5:31:08 | |
injure them free of charge. Another
objection heard by the committee | 5:31:08 | 5:31:11 | |
that the new rules in question are
the commissions power to move | 5:31:11 | 5:31:18 | |
vessels, without authority. Some
conditioners were worried that they | 5:31:18 | 5:31:24 | |
were too short a period. He even
alleged that the violated the human | 5:31:24 | 5:31:31 | |
rights of those that lived on the
level. This began a specific | 5:31:31 | 5:31:44 | |
exemption was written to have a
purpose. Beyond that, the bill | 5:31:44 | 5:31:48 | |
contains several additional methods.
It provides a clear definition of | 5:31:48 | 5:31:55 | |
the lawful authority to which
vessels can be removed and specifies | 5:31:55 | 5:31:59 | |
that any notices will be served to
the vessels in question. Plus 15 | 5:31:59 | 5:32:03 | |
says protocol specifies that removal
of us will be a last result. | 5:32:03 | 5:32:09 | |
Moreover, of course their team, L | 5:32:09 | 5:32:14 | |
the middle level navigation will see
the best and most explicit | 5:32:19 | 5:32:23 | |
protection for owners and users of
dwellers, a part of this countries | 5:32:23 | 5:32:26 | |
waterways. I concluded that these
protections are more than etiquette | 5:32:26 | 5:32:34 | |
to -- adequate of moving abundant or
more vessels blocking the use of | 5:32:34 | 5:32:46 | |
this obstructing navigation of the
narrow waterways. Finally, I'd like | 5:32:46 | 5:32:50 | |
to mention bylaws and regulations.
Requiring vessels to be insured to | 5:32:50 | 5:32:58 | |
proper safety standards, while
providing a period of adjustment to | 5:32:58 | 5:33:01 | |
those using that to make sure
they're up to code. Some not only | 5:33:01 | 5:33:09 | |
for others, but before it became a
dumping ground for unsafe vessels | 5:33:09 | 5:33:13 | |
which are no longer legal under par
for the network. Furthermore, as | 5:33:13 | 5:33:18 | |
they will be adopting standards are
a soon to neighbouring areas, | 5:33:18 | 5:33:23 | |
minimal disruption for a winter in
these navigation as part of a | 5:33:23 | 5:33:28 | |
broader network, in short, this bill
will modernise by resuming any | 5:33:28 | 5:33:33 | |
enhancing its historical character,
and future generations. This bill | 5:33:33 | 5:33:45 | |
affects my constituency along with
many others. About the modern | 5:33:45 | 5:33:51 | |
drainage bells brought in in the
18th century they would not have | 5:33:51 | 5:33:54 | |
homes and we would have nearly
200,000 prime land, so is vital to | 5:33:54 | 5:34:00 | |
my constituency, obviously, it's
important to boat owners as well. | 5:34:00 | 5:34:08 | |
Elected Frank my honourable friend,
I agree exactly with what he just | 5:34:08 | 5:34:12 | |
said. The nature of this bill, the
wikis within, I think what is real | 5:34:12 | 5:34:25 | |
important as we have a regime, that
is simple and transparent and not | 5:34:25 | 5:34:31 | |
too bureaucratic. And a great
respect of our, so the technical | 5:34:31 | 5:34:37 | |
amendments added to allow with the
sentence. But the high is not | 5:34:37 | 5:34:43 | |
telling what would complicate or
make it more bureaucratic. And what | 5:34:43 | 5:34:48 | |
we want is a simple bill with a
charging system that really fits the | 5:34:48 | 5:34:54 | |
purpose and we want to build up a
position of trust between the | 5:34:54 | 5:34:57 | |
commissioners they'll be playing | 5:34:57 | 5:34:58 | |
paying these navigation keys. It so
important my constituency. Thank you | 5:35:02 | 5:35:13 | |
very much Madam Deputy Speaker, I
can be relatively brief. The | 5:35:13 | 5:35:21 | |
government supports this bill which
is promoted by middle level | 5:35:21 | 5:35:24 | |
commissioners. A stacked tree
constituted under the middle | 5:35:24 | 5:35:29 | |
the previous amendments that this
sought to put forward here, by | 5:35:33 | 5:35:39 | |
believe in all the points that have
been raised in doubt with a | 5:35:39 | 5:35:45 | |
particular by our honourable member,
who has a creep grasp of the details | 5:35:45 | 5:35:49 | |
of the bill. | 5:35:49 | 5:35:50 | |
-- deep grasp of the details of the
bill. These acts are considerably | 5:35:54 | 5:35:58 | |
out of date and do not align with
modern requirements or the statutory | 5:35:58 | 5:36:03 | |
framework applicable to other
navigation authorities. In | 5:36:03 | 5:36:07 | |
particular, at the current legal
framework, which covers the | 5:36:07 | 5:36:10 | |
commissioners does not include
adequate provision for the vessels | 5:36:10 | 5:36:15 | |
using the waterways of the levying
of charges and waterways for | 5:36:15 | 5:36:19 | |
centuries. As result, they do not
receive any income for navigation | 5:36:19 | 5:36:24 | |
waterways and this is meant that
money raised through drainage, | 5:36:24 | 5:36:29 | |
rather then flood defence purposes,
which is contradictory to policy. It | 5:36:29 | 5:36:37 | |
enabled them to find their waterways
-- fund their waterways, authorities | 5:36:37 | 5:36:47 | |
for example have the canal and
rivers, just and the authority. I | 5:36:47 | 5:36:53 | |
read the report this and hope that
it will pass an amended. Madam | 5:36:53 | 5:37:02 | |
Deputy Speaker, we had a good
thoughtful debate, and I'm grateful | 5:37:02 | 5:37:06 | |
to everybody who has participated in
it. I like to think of friend who is | 5:37:06 | 5:37:18 | |
conceded to some of my minutes were
sensible and perhaps the new | 5:37:18 | 5:37:22 | |
clauses, is not accepted by
promoters tonight that they will be | 5:37:22 | 5:37:30 | |
taken forward and the other place as
it inevitably will be. This is a | 5:37:30 | 5:37:43 | |
considerable concern to the
petitioners them very grateful that | 5:37:43 | 5:37:47 | |
my I will friend having got to his
feet, it's quite than usual in these | 5:37:47 | 5:37:54 | |
debates for the person who is
actually gone to the detail, coming | 5:37:54 | 5:37:59 | |
care to explain his reasoning
ability did I like to thank my | 5:37:59 | 5:38:05 | |
honourable friend and other members
of the committee for the work that | 5:38:05 | 5:38:07 | |
they did in the courteous way in
which they dealt with the concerns | 5:38:07 | 5:38:11 | |
which are being confessed. Instead
of hiding under a Bush, they didn't | 5:38:11 | 5:38:23 | |
show | 5:38:23 | 5:38:24 | |
I'm also grateful to the member of
how facts showing some sympathy for | 5:38:27 | 5:38:34 | |
my amendment, even though she cannot
bring herself to support them yet. | 5:38:34 | 5:38:40 | |
There are a number of amendments out
there today can house because I | 5:38:40 | 5:38:50 | |
think people will be much better for
them to be dealt with and at the | 5:38:50 | 5:38:57 | |
other place, the head Pat has
developed the buses | 5:38:57 | 5:39:01 | |
can I say that I do think, that
amendment 14 is one in which bears | 5:39:06 | 5:39:16 | |
further consideration. Another 14
for the benefit of those who are | 5:39:16 | 5:39:20 | |
living in the debate, amendment 14
clause 11, at the end, and | 5:39:20 | 5:39:29 | |
respectively so our way to a driver
who is identified as disabled. In | 5:39:29 | 5:39:37 | |
response to that by my other friend,
thankful on all through my work. He | 5:39:37 | 5:39:55 | |
answers the point that he made, and
makes it much easier for someone up | 5:39:55 | 5:40:01 | |
for debate if they know that there
are parts of been answered. In | 5:40:01 | 5:40:08 | |
relation to disabled people, he sees
on the fact that registered disabled | 5:40:08 | 5:40:14 | |
is no longer with the R a D, a
category service and this amendment | 5:40:14 | 5:40:21 | |
would be for people registered as
disabled with a mid-level | 5:40:21 | 5:40:28 | |
commissioner. So in order to have
these boats, come its registration | 5:40:28 | 5:40:35 | |
system and that's that system will
include | 5:40:35 | 5:40:46 | |
I don't think the objection is a
valued one. If I put the amendment | 5:40:46 | 5:40:51 | |
with on the D perhaps it might have
been. I hope that we'd be able to | 5:40:51 | 5:41:00 | |
support this on the basis that it
is... There are a lot of people who | 5:41:00 | 5:41:06 | |
are disabled who got considerable
difficulties and I think it will be | 5:41:06 | 5:41:11 | |
a reasonable cross subsidy to be
paid by all other voters if they | 5:41:11 | 5:41:18 | |
were prepared to cross subsidize
those who register with the | 5:41:18 | 5:41:23 | |
commissioners as being disabled. The
only other issue I raise in | 5:41:23 | 5:41:26 | |
conclusion is that I note from
what's been said that there is a | 5:41:26 | 5:41:33 | |
move here to ensure that the vessels
which are substandard are | 5:41:33 | 5:41:36 | |
effectively going to be removed. I
hope that is not going to be done in | 5:41:36 | 5:41:41 | |
a way that's harassing, because as
the chairman of the all party | 5:41:41 | 5:41:43 | |
Parliamentary group on mobile phones
or park homes, I think there's a lot | 5:41:43 | 5:41:50 | |
of concern that largely elderly
people living in Park homes find | 5:41:50 | 5:41:54 | |
themselves harassed just because
their park home has not been updated | 5:41:54 | 5:41:58 | |
for 20 years or so, and I think
there a danger that in the drive for | 5:41:58 | 5:42:04 | |
what I might describe as
gentrification in the waterways, | 5:42:04 | 5:42:09 | |
that we may be working against the
interests of the people who have | 5:42:09 | 5:42:13 | |
been resident on those waterways for
many, many years and whose vessels | 5:42:13 | 5:42:20 | |
are not up to modern standards, but
are for their purposes perfectly | 5:42:20 | 5:42:23 | |
good vessels. I hope that the
commissioners and the promoters | 5:42:23 | 5:42:29 | |
won't abuse that power which we are
giving them. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | 5:42:29 | 5:42:35 | |
would seek to withdraw New Clause
one and ask the House to express its | 5:42:35 | 5:42:41 | |
opinion on amendment 14. In other
words, whether or not the House | 5:42:41 | 5:42:46 | |
would like to give disabled people
who are using these inland waterways | 5:42:46 | 5:42:55 | |
in vessels which are registered with
the commissioners, give them the | 5:42:55 | 5:43:00 | |
right to be able to do so without
having to pay charges. So, I would | 5:43:00 | 5:43:04 | |
like to move amendment 14. Is it
your pleasure that New Clause one be | 5:43:04 | 5:43:10 | |
withdrawn? New Clause one with John.
We therefore come to amendment | 5:43:10 | 5:43:20 | |
number 14. Sir Christopher to move
formally. They to move. The question | 5:43:20 | 5:43:28 | |
that amended 14 boot. So many of
that opinion say iMac. Of the | 5:43:28 | 5:43:34 | |
contrary no? | 5:43:34 | 5:43:36 |
Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including an Urgent Question on the border of Northern Ireland with the Republic after Brexit, an Urgent Question on the failure of the government of Myanmar to provide visas for parliamentary committee, a Ten Minute Rule bill, a motion on the independent complaints and grievance procedure for Parliament and opposed private business on the Middle Level Bill.