Browse content similar to 28/02/2018. Check below for episodes and series from the same categories and more!
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statesman-like demeanour which
colleagues should seek to imitate. | 0:00:00 | 0:00:03 | |
Order. Urgent question, Emily
Thornberry. To ask the Secretary of | 0:00:03 | 0:00:14 | |
State for common and -- for
Commonwealth affairs for future | 0:00:14 | 0:00:24 | |
arrangements for border arrangements
for the republican violence. Where | 0:00:24 | 0:00:29 | |
is he? Mr Speaker, I have been asked
to reply. This government has been | 0:00:29 | 0:00:38 | |
consistent in its commitments to
Northern Ireland as the United | 0:00:38 | 0:00:43 | |
Kingdom leaves the European Union.
First, we will never accept any | 0:00:43 | 0:00:46 | |
solutions that threaten the economic
or constitutional integrity of the | 0:00:46 | 0:00:51 | |
United Kingdom. Second, we will not
accept a hard border between | 0:00:51 | 0:00:55 | |
Northern Ireland and Ireland which
will reserves the considerable | 0:00:55 | 0:01:01 | |
progress of the political process
over the recent decades. That is | 0:01:01 | 0:01:04 | |
consistent with the Prime Minister's
Article 50 letter through to our | 0:01:04 | 0:01:09 | |
paper published last summer and the
Prime Minister's Florence speech at | 0:01:09 | 0:01:14 | |
last autumn. Most recently, the
government enshrined both of these | 0:01:14 | 0:01:17 | |
commitments quite clearly in the
joint report we agreed with the | 0:01:17 | 0:01:23 | |
European Union in December. I
preserve our commitment to | 0:01:23 | 0:01:30 | |
preserving the integrity of our
internal markets with Northern | 0:01:30 | 0:01:33 | |
Ireland. It also guaranteed an
avoidance of a hard border between | 0:01:33 | 0:01:41 | |
Northern Ireland and Ireland
including any checks and controls. | 0:01:41 | 0:01:45 | |
These agreements were approved
collectively by the entire Cabinet. | 0:01:45 | 0:01:52 | |
Those commitments have not changed
nor will they. Thank you, Mr | 0:01:52 | 0:01:59 | |
Speaker, for granting the urgent
question. I am always pleased to | 0:01:59 | 0:02:02 | |
hear from the Minister of State, I
have to say it is an absolute | 0:02:02 | 0:02:08 | |
disgrace and a huge discourtesy to
this House that the Foreign | 0:02:08 | 0:02:11 | |
Secretary is not hear himself to
answer the questions of his memo. | 0:02:11 | 0:02:20 | |
Especially as we saw him in London a
few hours ago jogging in the snow | 0:02:20 | 0:02:25 | |
and answering questions from the
media. If he can answer their | 0:02:25 | 0:02:28 | |
questions he really should be
prepared to answer ours. What is he | 0:02:28 | 0:02:32 | |
afraid of? Perhaps it is this, these
questions go to the very heart of | 0:02:32 | 0:02:36 | |
his credibility and the credibility
of previous statements that he is | 0:02:36 | 0:02:40 | |
made in this House. On November the
21st I asked the Foreign Secretary | 0:02:40 | 0:02:44 | |
at this dispatch box whether he
stood by the statements he made in | 0:02:44 | 0:02:49 | |
frippery 2016 that a vote for Brexit
would lead the border arrangements | 0:02:49 | 0:02:57 | |
in Northern Ireland absolutely
unchanged. That is what he told the | 0:02:57 | 0:03:00 | |
House just three months ago. I
repeat exactly that pledge. There | 0:03:00 | 0:03:05 | |
can be no return to a hard border,
that would be unthinkable. It would | 0:03:05 | 0:03:10 | |
be economic and political madness.
Everybody understands the | 0:03:10 | 0:03:14 | |
ramifications of allowing such a
thing to happen. But last night, Mr | 0:03:14 | 0:03:18 | |
Speaker, despite the clear a big
statement from the Foreign | 0:03:18 | 0:03:23 | |
Secretary, we discovered his private
memo to the Prime Minister on the | 0:03:23 | 0:03:27 | |
same subjects. And on that, he
wrote, it is wrong to see the task | 0:03:27 | 0:03:33 | |
as maintaining no border. The
government 's task, he said, is to | 0:03:33 | 0:03:36 | |
stop the border becoming
significantly harder, but even if, | 0:03:36 | 0:03:42 | |
he wrote, a hard border is
reintroduced, we would expect to see | 0:03:42 | 0:03:47 | |
95% plus of goods past the border
without checks. So let us be clear | 0:03:47 | 0:03:53 | |
what this memo reveals. Contrary to
the Foreign Secretary 's previous | 0:03:53 | 0:03:57 | |
statements, he except that there
will have to be changes to the | 0:03:57 | 0:04:01 | |
current border arrangements. He
accepts that there will need to be | 0:04:01 | 0:04:03 | |
border controls that do not exist at
present. The only debate is their | 0:04:03 | 0:04:09 | |
degree of hardness. But surely the
Foreign Secretary has learned by now | 0:04:09 | 0:04:15 | |
that you cannot just be a little bit
pregnant. Either there is a border | 0:04:15 | 0:04:19 | |
or there is not. So my first
question for the Minister is this, | 0:04:19 | 0:04:24 | |
the Foreign Secretary told this
House that there would be no new | 0:04:24 | 0:04:30 | |
border arrangements and no changes
to the status quo but this memo says | 0:04:30 | 0:04:34 | |
the exact opposite. So which is the
truth? What the Foreign Secretary | 0:04:34 | 0:04:39 | |
said three months ago in public what
he said three weeks ago in private? | 0:04:39 | 0:04:44 | |
Now, the Foreign Secretary has
already said what we have heard so | 0:04:44 | 0:04:47 | |
many times on this issue, that there
is some magical, technical solution | 0:04:47 | 0:04:52 | |
which will allow goods to be checks,
smuggling to be prevented and points | 0:04:52 | 0:04:58 | |
of origin proved as easily as paying
the congestion charge. But here is | 0:04:58 | 0:05:03 | |
the truly magical parts, without
even the installation of cameras. | 0:05:03 | 0:05:08 | |
And as I pressed the Foreign
Secretary repeatedly to tell us how | 0:05:08 | 0:05:11 | |
on earth is this possible? Or is it
just another addition to his ever | 0:05:11 | 0:05:18 | |
growing list of fantasy from Boris
Island to the Channel bridge. I | 0:05:18 | 0:05:22 | |
welcome the fact that the Foreign
Secretary has already promised the | 0:05:22 | 0:05:27 | |
media to his leaked memo in full and
I hope that will provide some | 0:05:27 | 0:05:30 | |
answers but can I ask the minister
now for the benefit of this House | 0:05:30 | 0:05:34 | |
and so that's my colleagues can
question him on his answer to spell | 0:05:34 | 0:05:37 | |
out in detail how this proposed
invisible border will actually work | 0:05:37 | 0:05:43 | |
in practice? Because if he cannot
provide that the tell, Mr Speaker, | 0:05:43 | 0:05:50 | |
we are left with the conclusion that
all of us on this side and | 0:05:50 | 0:05:56 | |
increasing number on his side accept
that the only way to avoid a hard | 0:05:56 | 0:05:59 | |
border in Northern Ireland is by
staying in a customs union. The fact | 0:05:59 | 0:06:03 | |
is the government knows that. We are
extremely grateful to the Shadow | 0:06:03 | 0:06:11 | |
Foreign Secretary but she has now
exceeded her time. We must leave it | 0:06:11 | 0:06:14 | |
there. I have one further sentence
and I am done. Well, very well. Or | 0:06:14 | 0:06:21 | |
that! I will be the judge of these
matters. I'm grateful to you for | 0:06:21 | 0:06:28 | |
your offer of services but I feel
able to cope without one. And the | 0:06:28 | 0:06:32 | |
Minister will have suitable time to
respond. One sentence. The truth of | 0:06:32 | 0:06:36 | |
this memo is that they are saying
one thing in public what they are | 0:06:36 | 0:06:42 | |
preparing for the reality in private
and it is about time that this | 0:06:42 | 0:06:44 | |
deception was ended. Forgive me. I
don't wish to be discourteous to the | 0:06:44 | 0:06:54 | |
honourable lady and certainly not to
the Minister either, but the | 0:06:54 | 0:06:57 | |
Minister of the Cabinet officer is
not a Minister of State, he is a | 0:06:57 | 0:07:00 | |
member of the Cabinet. It's so
confusing as to who was going to be | 0:07:00 | 0:07:05 | |
answering to this. I do apologise
for having drafted one script and | 0:07:05 | 0:07:09 | |
they're being somebody else. That
was a nice try. It was very generous | 0:07:09 | 0:07:13 | |
of me to allow her to make it. Mr
Speaker, anybody would have thought | 0:07:13 | 0:07:19 | |
that the right Honourable lady was
nervous about facing me across the | 0:07:19 | 0:07:22 | |
dispatch box again. Now, she did
start by just questioning my | 0:07:22 | 0:07:30 | |
credentials to be here. Can I just
say this, since I both have Cabinet | 0:07:30 | 0:07:35 | |
responsibility for Constitutional
affairs, including for the | 0:07:35 | 0:07:40 | |
implementation of devolution
throughout the United Kingdom, and | 0:07:40 | 0:07:43 | |
since I also chair the Cabinet amity
on the domestic implementation of | 0:07:43 | 0:07:48 | |
our Brexit arrangements, it seems to
me perfectly reasonable that I | 0:07:48 | 0:07:53 | |
should be responding to the
questions. She asks about the | 0:07:53 | 0:07:57 | |
position of my right honourable
friend the Foreign Secretary, my | 0:07:57 | 0:08:01 | |
right honourable friend like every
other member of the Cabinet stands | 0:08:01 | 0:08:07 | |
behind our support for the Belfast
agreement and for the December | 0:08:07 | 0:08:10 | |
agreement reached between the United
kingdom and the European Union. We | 0:08:10 | 0:08:16 | |
are now at the very start of a
negotiating period during which we | 0:08:16 | 0:08:21 | |
will be discussing with our partners
in the European Union Howell to give | 0:08:21 | 0:08:26 | |
practical effects of the commitments
that were entered into. Both to | 0:08:26 | 0:08:33 | |
ensure that there was no north -
south border between Northern | 0:08:33 | 0:08:40 | |
Ireland and Ireland is and to ensure
that there is no border customs | 0:08:40 | 0:08:45 | |
between Northern Ireland and the
rest of the United Kingdom. The | 0:08:45 | 0:08:48 | |
Prime Minister and the tsar have
both said publicly that they believe | 0:08:48 | 0:08:54 | |
-- Taoiseach. The ambitious and deep
and special partnership that we are | 0:08:54 | 0:09:03 | |
seeking with the European Union in
the future. My right honourable | 0:09:03 | 0:09:07 | |
friend, the Prime Minister, will be
setting out my details to this on | 0:09:07 | 0:09:11 | |
Friday. | 0:09:11 | 0:09:14 | |
Mr Speaker, we have just heard the
Prime Minister reconfirm her | 0:09:14 | 0:09:22 | |
commitment to keep the Irish border
open. I didn't wholly understand the | 0:09:22 | 0:09:25 | |
second half of high reply to me.
Does my right honourable friend | 0:09:25 | 0:09:37 | |
really believe it will be possible
to negotiate a position where the | 0:09:37 | 0:09:41 | |
British Government decides what
regulatory convergence it has and | 0:09:41 | 0:09:46 | |
the British Government decides what
regulatory convergence it will not | 0:09:46 | 0:09:49 | |
have and the British Government is
free to change its mind and move | 0:09:49 | 0:09:53 | |
those boundaries at any time? What
does he think the prospects of | 0:09:53 | 0:09:57 | |
agreeing that with 27 other
sovereign governments? | 0:09:57 | 0:10:03 | |
I do not think there is the need for
any misunderstanding about what the | 0:10:03 | 0:10:11 | |
Prime Minister was saying. On the
date when we leave the European | 0:10:11 | 0:10:16 | |
Union, the treaties in the words of
Article 50 cease to apply to the | 0:10:16 | 0:10:21 | |
United Kingdom. The effect of the
withdrawal bill, currently before | 0:10:21 | 0:10:26 | |
the House of Lords, is that the
direct effect of European Union law | 0:10:26 | 0:10:35 | |
and diplomacy of European law in the
United Kingdom will be | 0:10:35 | 0:10:38 | |
distinguished. What we are now
seeking is an agreement for the | 0:10:38 | 0:10:41 | |
future which will take the form of a
treaty governed by international law | 0:10:41 | 0:10:46 | |
between United Kingdom and the
continuing entity of the European | 0:10:46 | 0:10:51 | |
Union. That is what we are seeking
to do. The Prime Minister will be | 0:10:51 | 0:10:56 | |
speaking about this with more detail
on Friday. We know from leaked | 0:10:56 | 0:11:04 | |
government figures that they will
play fast and loose with jobs and | 0:11:04 | 0:11:07 | |
the economy in trying to prevent
another Tory civil war and there are | 0:11:07 | 0:11:11 | |
concerns they may be doing the same
thing over the Good Friday peace | 0:11:11 | 0:11:15 | |
process to prevent Tory civil war.
Will the Minister tell us, is it | 0:11:15 | 0:11:19 | |
wrong to say the Foreign Secretary
Tasker is maintaining no order? Will | 0:11:19 | 0:11:26 | |
he tell us that if the
implementation BDO is based on the | 0:11:26 | 0:11:33 | |
principles, what impact it will have
on the border? And finally, it is | 0:11:33 | 0:11:37 | |
good to see the minister here, I
enjoy a game of where is Wally, it | 0:11:37 | 0:11:44 | |
is astonishing that the Foreign
Secretary is not yet. Mr Speaker, | 0:11:44 | 0:11:51 | |
the entire government is committed
to their being no border between | 0:11:51 | 0:11:56 | |
Northern Ireland and Ireland, or
between Northern Ireland and the | 0:11:56 | 0:11:59 | |
rest of the United Kingdom. Both
those elements were central to the | 0:11:59 | 0:12:03 | |
December joint report. Those are
both firm commitments of the entire | 0:12:03 | 0:12:10 | |
United Kingdom Cabinet and
government. I would say to the | 0:12:10 | 0:12:14 | |
honourable gentleman, that I think
his strictures about the | 0:12:14 | 0:12:18 | |
government's approach to jobs and
employment stands somewhat in | 0:12:18 | 0:12:23 | |
contrast to the reality, which is
that within the United Kingdom at | 0:12:23 | 0:12:27 | |
the moment, we have unemployment at
a 40 year low. Has he seen the | 0:12:27 | 0:12:39 | |
report prepared by the European
Parliament's policy Department first | 0:12:39 | 0:12:43 | |
citizen 's right and Constitutional
affairs which concludes that a | 0:12:43 | 0:12:46 | |
technical solution that will allow
free movement of persons under the | 0:12:46 | 0:12:51 | |
Common travel arrangement is
possible and that we, there is no | 0:12:51 | 0:12:58 | |
reason that we cannot implement it
straightaway? I haven't had the | 0:12:58 | 0:13:05 | |
pleasure of reading that report from
the European Parliament yet but I | 0:13:05 | 0:13:08 | |
will add to my reading list I think
what my honourable friend has said | 0:13:08 | 0:13:13 | |
is that there is evidence that there
are people both here and in the | 0:13:13 | 0:13:18 | |
Brussels institutions and in the 27
national governments of our EU | 0:13:18 | 0:13:22 | |
partners who are keen to work
constructively together to find an | 0:13:22 | 0:13:26 | |
outcome that actually brings
benefits in the future to resolve. | 0:13:26 | 0:13:30 | |
Instead of complaining that the
draft withdrawal agreement published | 0:13:30 | 0:13:36 | |
this morning proposes to keep
Northern Ireland in the customs | 0:13:36 | 0:13:39 | |
union, subject to the single energy
market and subject to EU rules on | 0:13:39 | 0:13:45 | |
the environment and agriculture, is
it not time that ministers finally | 0:13:45 | 0:13:49 | |
accepted that it is their continuing
failure to explain how they are | 0:13:49 | 0:13:53 | |
going to keep an open border while
leaving the customs union and the | 0:13:53 | 0:13:57 | |
single market that is the cause of
this problem? So will -- when will | 0:13:57 | 0:14:04 | |
ministers explain when the proposed
to achieve this? I drive the right | 0:14:04 | 0:14:12 | |
honourable gentleman attention that
there were three different options | 0:14:12 | 0:14:16 | |
to ensure that there is no hard
border between Ireland and Northern | 0:14:16 | 0:14:22 | |
Ireland. The first of those, and the
one that the government of Ireland | 0:14:22 | 0:14:27 | |
as well as this government is
strongly committed to and wants to | 0:14:27 | 0:14:34 | |
see as the option we are able to
deliver, is the one that settles | 0:14:34 | 0:14:38 | |
this matter in the context of the
overall future economic partnership | 0:14:38 | 0:14:42 | |
between the UK and the European
Union. We are looking forward to | 0:14:42 | 0:14:48 | |
beginning the negotiating process
which I hope we'll start off the | 0:14:48 | 0:14:51 | |
publication today. Mr Speaker, we
are coming up to the 20th | 0:14:51 | 0:14:57 | |
anniversary of the Good Friday
Agreement which allowed people of | 0:14:57 | 0:15:00 | |
this nation to have their own
identity and yet be citizens of the | 0:15:00 | 0:15:05 | |
United Kingdom. That agreement also
mocked and three conditions. It | 0:15:05 | 0:15:09 | |
could only change with the agreement
of the citizens of Northern Ireland, | 0:15:09 | 0:15:16 | |
the government had to agree, and
that the United Kingdom had to | 0:15:16 | 0:15:19 | |
agree. Can you agree with me that
this agreement must not be | 0:15:19 | 0:15:23 | |
undermined and those who voted
against it in the past should hang | 0:15:23 | 0:15:26 | |
their heads in shame because it is
an agreement that has kept the peace | 0:15:26 | 0:15:30 | |
for 20 years? Mr Speaker, I am proud
of what the Belfast agreement has | 0:15:30 | 0:15:38 | |
achieved in making possible a period
of peace and reconciliation with the | 0:15:38 | 0:15:46 | |
Northern Ireland. I think none of us
would claim that process is complete | 0:15:46 | 0:15:51 | |
yet. But I think that the Belfast
agreement was an historic start and | 0:15:51 | 0:15:57 | |
it was attributed to hard work by
successive governments to John Major | 0:15:57 | 0:16:01 | |
and to Tony Leer both. I am happy to
pay tribute to both of them. -- Tony | 0:16:01 | 0:16:07 | |
Blair. I think my honourable friend
made the important point in talking | 0:16:07 | 0:16:14 | |
about the principle of consent. The
principle of consent including the | 0:16:14 | 0:16:19 | |
status of Northern Ireland was also
written into the joint report and | 0:16:19 | 0:16:23 | |
signed up to not just by the UK
Government by the European Union as | 0:16:23 | 0:16:26 | |
well. Can I welcome what the
Secretary of State has said in this | 0:16:26 | 0:16:38 | |
statement and also what the Prime
Minister said very clearly at Prime | 0:16:38 | 0:16:43 | |
Minister's Questions. It is ironic
is it not that some of those people | 0:16:43 | 0:16:47 | |
who complained Harrod is about
creating a hard border between | 0:16:47 | 0:16:51 | |
Northern Ireland and the Irish
Republic have today welcome proposal | 0:16:51 | 0:16:54 | |
from the EU which would create a
hard brother between Northern | 0:16:54 | 0:16:58 | |
Ireland and the rest of the United
Kingdom. The fact of the marker is | 0:16:58 | 0:17:02 | |
there is a border between North and
South. There are different | 0:17:02 | 0:17:09 | |
currencies, different economic
policies, but it is managed in a way | 0:17:09 | 0:17:13 | |
that is sensible and pragmatic. The
same can be done in relation to the | 0:17:13 | 0:17:17 | |
future relationship. It has already
been spelt out in the government's | 0:17:17 | 0:17:22 | |
paper last August to use the Belfast
agreement, more despicably to use | 0:17:22 | 0:17:30 | |
the peace process to shave it in the
way that some people want is quite | 0:17:30 | 0:17:33 | |
frankly outrageous and disk visible.
Let's back the arrangements that are | 0:17:33 | 0:17:39 | |
in place but let's go forward and
pragmatic and sensible way not | 0:17:39 | 0:17:45 | |
create things that are not there. I
welcome what the right honourable | 0:17:45 | 0:17:52 | |
member for Belfast has said. Yes,
there is of course a Judas diction | 0:17:52 | 0:17:56 | |
order which gives rise to tax and
other differences as well. -- Judas | 0:17:56 | 0:18:02 | |
diction. Those are managed in a way
that allows people to go about the | 0:18:02 | 0:18:07 | |
lives on either side of that border
without any kind of hindrance or | 0:18:07 | 0:18:12 | |
delay whatsoever. Both we and the
Irish government are determined to | 0:18:12 | 0:18:18 | |
try and ensure that that state of
affairs continues but also | 0:18:18 | 0:18:23 | |
respecting the integrity of the
United Kingdom. Of all the areas of | 0:18:23 | 0:18:30 | |
the Brexit negotiations which give
rise to high emotion, perhaps the | 0:18:30 | 0:18:34 | |
one that most needs to be treated
calmly, rationally and unemotionally | 0:18:34 | 0:18:39 | |
as the Irish border. Can my right
honourable friend assured me that | 0:18:39 | 0:18:46 | |
they will continue to deal with this
issue in that calm and rational way, | 0:18:46 | 0:18:52 | |
and in doing that, can they perhaps
persuade the commission 's | 0:18:52 | 0:18:56 | |
negotiating side that they should
concentrate, not just on one area of | 0:18:56 | 0:19:01 | |
the December joint report, but on
all three areas that were put | 0:19:01 | 0:19:06 | |
forward by the British government
originally. I agree wholeheartedly | 0:19:06 | 0:19:09 | |
with what might honourable friend
for Ashford says. His emphasis on | 0:19:09 | 0:19:15 | |
all three strands is correct. It is
important they should be no cherry | 0:19:15 | 0:19:20 | |
picking between the different
elements of the December joint | 0:19:20 | 0:19:23 | |
report and I think it is important
that we tried to approach these | 0:19:23 | 0:19:27 | |
matters in the kind of calm,
pragmatic way that he urged. The | 0:19:27 | 0:19:34 | |
Foreign Secretary has claimed that
congestion technology is the answer | 0:19:34 | 0:19:37 | |
to border checks outside of a
customs union. We know that the | 0:19:37 | 0:19:42 | |
congestion charge checks fear is not
what is inside them and includes 197 | 0:19:42 | 0:19:49 | |
camera sites around London that no
one notices because they are in | 0:19:49 | 0:19:52 | |
built-up areas and no one cares
because the last time I looked there | 0:19:52 | 0:19:56 | |
had been a long history of peace
between inner and no to London. In | 0:19:56 | 0:20:01 | |
Northern Ireland, there were four
attacks on the lives of police | 0:20:01 | 0:20:06 | |
officers. 58 shooting incidents and
the PSN I have warned that any | 0:20:06 | 0:20:13 | |
infrastructure at the Borders is a
threat. So will you confirm that | 0:20:13 | 0:20:18 | |
ministers rule out any physical
infrastructure at the border, that | 0:20:18 | 0:20:22 | |
cameras are physical and tell us, do
they rule out new cameras at the | 0:20:22 | 0:20:27 | |
border, yes or no? We stand by the
words we committed to ourselves in | 0:20:27 | 0:20:35 | |
December, which includes no physical
infrastructure at the border. Can I | 0:20:35 | 0:20:41 | |
support everything that has been
said by my right honourable friend | 0:20:41 | 0:20:45 | |
and the comets from my right
honourable friend from Ashford. We | 0:20:45 | 0:20:54 | |
are not going to rip our nation
further apart. We not only have to | 0:20:54 | 0:21:00 | |
have a pragmatic approach to browse
about an honest approach to Brexit. | 0:21:00 | 0:21:03 | |
The only solution to a hard border
is membership to the customs union. | 0:21:03 | 0:21:09 | |
They will get there in the end. My
question is this, does he share my | 0:21:09 | 0:21:17 | |
concern about democratic deficit. We
know that 56% of people in Northern | 0:21:17 | 0:21:22 | |
Ireland voted Remain. I wonder why.
In the absence of the executive, | 0:21:22 | 0:21:27 | |
given the composition of those Right
Honourable members who sit in this | 0:21:27 | 0:21:33 | |
place to represent Northern Ireland,
where is the voice of the 56% in all | 0:21:33 | 0:21:38 | |
of this? Mr Speaker, it is the
government's hope that the political | 0:21:38 | 0:21:49 | |
parties in Northern Ireland can
agree to reconstitute the executive | 0:21:49 | 0:21:54 | |
and the assembly as soon as
possible. There is agreement across | 0:21:54 | 0:21:59 | |
all the parties in Northern Ireland,
that is what they do want -- that | 0:21:59 | 0:22:04 | |
that is what they want to do. I hope
any differences can be overcome. Why | 0:22:04 | 0:22:09 | |
does the Secretary of State think
that the Foreign Secretary wrote | 0:22:09 | 0:22:14 | |
this letter? Was it because he did
not know that the government had | 0:22:14 | 0:22:18 | |
committed in paragraph 49 of the
December agreement to its guaranteed | 0:22:18 | 0:22:24 | |
of avoiding a hard border? Or was it
because any commitment can be set | 0:22:24 | 0:22:30 | |
aside in the service of the cause
that the Foreign Secretary really | 0:22:30 | 0:22:34 | |
cares about, which is the
furtherance of his own career? Or | 0:22:34 | 0:22:38 | |
was it something more sinister than
Boris's self-love, which is now | 0:22:38 | 0:22:45 | |
faced with the incompatibility of
red lines around the customs union | 0:22:45 | 0:22:49 | |
and the single market and the
commitment to no hard border. There | 0:22:49 | 0:22:55 | |
is a concerted ideological attack on
that commitment to no hard border. | 0:22:55 | 0:22:59 | |
And indeed to the Good Friday
Agreement itself. Mr Speaker, I | 0:22:59 | 0:23:06 | |
don't think I could have been
clearer than I have been so far in | 0:23:06 | 0:23:10 | |
these exchanges that the government
is absolutely resolved to stand by | 0:23:10 | 0:23:15 | |
both the Belfast agreement and all
parts of the joint report of last | 0:23:15 | 0:23:19 | |
December. Can I see how encouraged I
am that everybody seems to want to | 0:23:19 | 0:23:32 | |
avoid a hard border in Northern
Ireland. The only people who seem to | 0:23:32 | 0:23:36 | |
be threatening a hard border are
people who are trying to leveraged | 0:23:36 | 0:23:40 | |
their political advantage in
domestic politics and the Republic | 0:23:40 | 0:23:46 | |
of Ireland, trying to blackmail the
whole of the United Kingdom into | 0:23:46 | 0:23:51 | |
substantially changing the
referendum result. Far more | 0:23:51 | 0:23:55 | |
constituencies voted Leader of the
House than Remain. It would be | 0:23:55 | 0:24:00 | |
politically unsustainable for the
issues around Northern Ireland to | 0:24:00 | 0:24:03 | |
leveraged the whole of the United
Kingdom into some kind of customs | 0:24:03 | 0:24:07 | |
union as to correct any un-wholly
unnecessary infrastructure at the | 0:24:07 | 0:24:12 | |
border at Northern Ireland. We are
at the start of the negotiations | 0:24:12 | 0:24:17 | |
about the detail of the withdrawal
agreement and then of the creation | 0:24:17 | 0:24:20 | |
of the future, deep and special
partnership we are seeking with a | 0:24:20 | 0:24:26 | |
utopian friends and neighbours. --
European. And the economic | 0:24:26 | 0:24:34 | |
partnership is something the Prime
Minister will talk about on Friday. | 0:24:34 | 0:24:39 | |
This is supposed to be a question
and answer session, not debate. I am | 0:24:39 | 0:24:46 | |
getting is years the Astec nods. --
I am getting enthusiastic nods. What | 0:24:46 | 0:24:54 | |
is required is not an oration, but
enquiry, which will either be | 0:24:54 | 0:24:59 | |
brilliantly exemplified by Lady
Hermon. What a task and I will keep | 0:24:59 | 0:25:09 | |
to it. May I ask the secretary to
take a few moments to confirm to the | 0:25:09 | 0:25:15 | |
House that the Irish government has
accepted that there will be no hard | 0:25:15 | 0:25:20 | |
border and just as importantly, that
the Irish government has accepted | 0:25:20 | 0:25:25 | |
there will be no border down the
Irish Sea? | 0:25:25 | 0:25:34 | |
The Irish government like the rest
of the EU signs up to and support | 0:25:34 | 0:25:38 | |
its joint report in its entirety of
last December and paragraph 42 of | 0:25:38 | 0:25:42 | |
the joint report commits both
parties, the UK and the EU, to | 0:25:42 | 0:25:50 | |
uphold the totality of relationships
embodied and expressed by the | 0:25:50 | 0:25:55 | |
Belfast agreement. The totality of
relationships embraces East- West, | 0:25:55 | 0:26:00 | |
every bit as much as North- South.
What lies behind the commission's | 0:26:00 | 0:26:08 | |
partial decision to develop the
options? I'm afraid that is not a | 0:26:08 | 0:26:16 | |
question I can readily answer. I
would just say to my right | 0:26:16 | 0:26:20 | |
honourable friend that I think it is
important that the commission | 0:26:20 | 0:26:25 | |
recognises, as the Prime Minister
said earlier, that's as far as the | 0:26:25 | 0:26:28 | |
government is concerned, which ever
side those of us round the Cabinet | 0:26:28 | 0:26:36 | |
table voted or campaigns for during
the referendum on the EU, our | 0:26:36 | 0:26:41 | |
commitments to the union of the
United Kingdom is absolute. There is | 0:26:41 | 0:26:47 | |
no division whatsoever on this
matter and I hope that our | 0:26:47 | 0:26:52 | |
negotiating partners will understand
that. I understand the Minister's | 0:26:52 | 0:26:59 | |
clear frustration at the Foreign
Secretary that it is not his task to | 0:26:59 | 0:27:03 | |
try and defend the border but the
Foreign Secretary did say this | 0:27:03 | 0:27:07 | |
morning after his joke that he was
going to publish the memo. When? We | 0:27:07 | 0:27:16 | |
don't publish internal ministerial
correspondence. Mr Speaker, can I | 0:27:16 | 0:27:25 | |
congratulate my right honourable
friend are not being provoked by the | 0:27:25 | 0:27:29 | |
ridiculous statements coming from
the European Union on this subject. | 0:27:29 | 0:27:32 | |
Can I commend my right honourable
friend the wise words of the right | 0:27:32 | 0:27:38 | |
honourable member for North Belfast
because that shows that you can have | 0:27:38 | 0:27:42 | |
a border weather is regulatory
divergences as there is at the | 0:27:42 | 0:27:45 | |
moments, and why can't continue in
the future? We are certainly seeking | 0:27:45 | 0:27:51 | |
no hard border and hopefully the
government of Ireland is committed | 0:27:51 | 0:27:56 | |
to that objective as well. Having
served six years for Minister for | 0:27:56 | 0:28:01 | |
Europe, I'm used to trying to avoid
provocation wherever it comes from. | 0:28:01 | 0:28:10 | |
The Foreign Secretary's absence does
us all we need to know about how | 0:28:10 | 0:28:13 | |
accountable he feels he should be to
this House, so I must ask the | 0:28:13 | 0:28:17 | |
Minister instead, why was the
Foreign Secretary speculating about | 0:28:17 | 0:28:23 | |
the Northern Ireland - Ireland
border becoming more difficult. -- | 0:28:23 | 0:28:26 | |
harder. What was he considering on
the border? The right honourable | 0:28:26 | 0:28:33 | |
gentleman served in the coalition
government. He knows that the way we | 0:28:33 | 0:28:36 | |
do government business is that
ministers right and conversed with | 0:28:36 | 0:28:42 | |
each other all the time but the
policy of the government is the | 0:28:42 | 0:28:45 | |
policy that has been at collectively
agreed by the Cabinet. That is what | 0:28:45 | 0:28:53 | |
I am the promised that set up this
afternoon. Can I welcome the | 0:28:53 | 0:28:59 | |
Minister's commitment to the joint
report. Can I ask him to confirm | 0:28:59 | 0:29:04 | |
that it is Her Majesty's government
intention to stick by the agreement | 0:29:04 | 0:29:09 | |
that were outlined in paragraph's 49
and 50 of the joint report and there | 0:29:09 | 0:29:18 | |
is no intention to renege on any
part of them? I can give my right | 0:29:18 | 0:29:23 | |
honourable friend that assurance.
Will the Secretary of State 's | 0:29:23 | 0:29:29 | |
confirm for the benefit of his
backbenchers and perhaps the DUP | 0:29:29 | 0:29:32 | |
that the Northern Irish border
backstop provision embodied in | 0:29:32 | 0:29:38 | |
today's draft EU withdrawal
agreement is exactly what the Prime | 0:29:38 | 0:29:42 | |
Minister agreed to as he backstop in
December 2017? And if he disagrees | 0:29:42 | 0:29:48 | |
with me, if he disagrees with me,
will his government produced an | 0:29:48 | 0:29:58 | |
alternative text explaining what he
did agree? What we have today is | 0:29:58 | 0:30:03 | |
something that Mr Barnier has
described as not necessarily the | 0:30:03 | 0:30:10 | |
final version because this is a
draft that the commission is not | 0:30:10 | 0:30:13 | |
tabling for negotiation. The
commission is tabling before | 0:30:13 | 0:30:16 | |
discussion amongst the EU 27 Head of
State and the European Parliament. | 0:30:16 | 0:30:20 | |
When text comes to the table for
negotiation, we will obviously | 0:30:20 | 0:30:25 | |
consider that but I think, as the
Prime Minister said earlier, it is | 0:30:25 | 0:30:29 | |
important that there is not cherry
picking and that the text of the | 0:30:29 | 0:30:34 | |
withdrawal agreement when it is
eventually concluded reflects all | 0:30:34 | 0:30:37 | |
the paragraphs of the joint report
equally and, at the moment, my | 0:30:37 | 0:30:46 | |
feeling on the brief reading I've
had so far, is that the current | 0:30:46 | 0:30:49 | |
draft does not do that. Mr Speaker,
can I welcome what my right | 0:30:49 | 0:30:57 | |
honourable friend has said in
pointing back to the joint report | 0:30:57 | 0:31:00 | |
from just before Christmas which
underlined both the commitments to | 0:31:00 | 0:31:04 | |
the UK and EU to the Belfast Good
Friday Agreement but also the | 0:31:04 | 0:31:10 | |
constitutional settlement of the UK.
In that regard, can he confirm that | 0:31:10 | 0:31:16 | |
the joint report highlighted that
primarily we need to focus on | 0:31:16 | 0:31:19 | |
dealing with the Northern Ireland
border through the broader | 0:31:19 | 0:31:22 | |
negotiations and in that regard that
he will encourage colleagues to | 0:31:22 | 0:31:27 | |
focus on the August reports that the
government published, setting out in | 0:31:27 | 0:31:31 | |
detail how we should do that? My
right honourable friend give some | 0:31:31 | 0:31:36 | |
very good advice. We are certainly
committed to taking the negotiations | 0:31:36 | 0:31:39 | |
forward in that spirit. If the
Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster | 0:31:39 | 0:31:47 | |
really wants a united United Kingdom
as we move forward in a situation | 0:31:47 | 0:31:51 | |
where the nation is facing some of
the most congregated decision it is | 0:31:51 | 0:31:55 | |
hard to make the best part of 100
years, is he not going to have to | 0:31:55 | 0:32:00 | |
build a bigger consensus than just
around the Cabinet table? Does that | 0:32:00 | 0:32:03 | |
not mean he is going to turn round
to his colleagues and say, yes, you | 0:32:03 | 0:32:12 | |
will come to Parliament and explain
to Parliament what your views are | 0:32:12 | 0:32:16 | |
and yes, Prime Minister, just
sometimes you're not going to make a | 0:32:16 | 0:32:19 | |
speech somewhere else, you're going
to make a speech about the European | 0:32:19 | 0:32:24 | |
Union, the most important issue
facing this in this chamber. Just | 0:32:24 | 0:32:29 | |
before the Minister offers his
replies I should just advise the | 0:32:29 | 0:32:31 | |
House of what I have been advised,
namely that the Prime Minister will | 0:32:31 | 0:32:37 | |
be making a statement on Brexit
policy in this chamber on Monday. | 0:32:37 | 0:32:44 | |
That I think is extremely welcome. I
should just say in the name of the | 0:32:44 | 0:32:50 | |
intelligibility of our proceedings
to people who are not Members of the | 0:32:50 | 0:32:52 | |
House that the decision as to
whether to grant an urgent question | 0:32:52 | 0:32:57 | |
is a matter for me, the Speaker, to
have been granted today because I | 0:32:57 | 0:33:03 | |
judge that they warranted the
attention of the House, but as | 0:33:03 | 0:33:06 | |
colleagues also note and others
might not, the matter of who the | 0:33:06 | 0:33:12 | |
government fields to respond to a
question is a matter for the | 0:33:12 | 0:33:16 | |
government. That is the situation.
Minister for the Cabinet Office. Mr | 0:33:16 | 0:33:21 | |
Speaker, I am always someone who
will welcome Parliamentary consensus | 0:33:21 | 0:33:25 | |
where that can be built. If the
gentleman looks at the Prime | 0:33:25 | 0:33:29 | |
Minister's records in being here and
giving statements after her main | 0:33:29 | 0:33:36 | |
European meetings and answering
questions at length, he should agree | 0:33:36 | 0:33:39 | |
it is a pretty good one. Mr Speaker,
does my right honourable friend | 0:33:39 | 0:33:47 | |
agree with me that the European
Union continues to put the cart | 0:33:47 | 0:33:50 | |
before the horse on this aspect?
Surely we cannot know with any | 0:33:50 | 0:33:55 | |
degree of certainty what
arrangements will be needed on the | 0:33:55 | 0:33:59 | |
Ireland border if any at all until
we know what kind of trade agreement | 0:33:59 | 0:34:03 | |
were going to strike. My honourable
friend makes an important point and | 0:34:03 | 0:34:08 | |
that is precisely why that's not
only the Prime Minister, but the | 0:34:08 | 0:34:12 | |
Taoiseach believe that the best
option is to settle the border in | 0:34:12 | 0:34:17 | |
the context of the overall economic
partnership between ourselves and | 0:34:17 | 0:34:21 | |
the European Union. By leaving the
European Union we are taking control | 0:34:21 | 0:34:28 | |
of our borders such as that at
Holyhead, the government has also | 0:34:28 | 0:34:33 | |
committed to no border between the
Republic and Northern Ireland. Can | 0:34:33 | 0:34:37 | |
the minister name any pair of
countries that is regulated by two | 0:34:37 | 0:34:44 | |
difference customs regimes? This is
exactly the point I was making to | 0:34:44 | 0:34:49 | |
the right honourable member for
chicks free. The right way forward | 0:34:49 | 0:34:53 | |
is to resolve these matters on the
future of economic partnership. It | 0:34:53 | 0:35:02 | |
is rightly the determination of the
government to deliver the openly | 0:35:02 | 0:35:07 | |
effective border with the
qualifications made by the right | 0:35:07 | 0:35:10 | |
Honourable member for North Belfast,
surely all of the people of the | 0:35:10 | 0:35:13 | |
island of Ireland have the right to
that same practical determination to | 0:35:13 | 0:35:19 | |
be shared by the same EU 27 with out
being taking hostage by conditions | 0:35:19 | 0:35:26 | |
that would in effect override the
decision of the British people to | 0:35:26 | 0:35:30 | |
leave the European Union and the
agenda which is quite transparently | 0:35:30 | 0:35:35 | |
on display today. We are at the
start of a process of negotiation, | 0:35:35 | 0:35:40 | |
not at the end of it. I do think the
Prime Minister could have been | 0:35:40 | 0:35:47 | |
clearer. No Prime Minister of any
party who has served up until now | 0:35:47 | 0:35:50 | |
including her good countenance an
agreement which led to a Customs | 0:35:50 | 0:35:58 | |
border between one part of the
United Kingdom and another. The | 0:35:58 | 0:36:04 | |
Minister has said he wants no border
between Ireland and Northern Ireland | 0:36:04 | 0:36:08 | |
but he is also said he does not want
the border between the integral part | 0:36:08 | 0:36:12 | |
of the United kingdom and the rest
of Ireland. Well, I tell you this, | 0:36:12 | 0:36:20 | |
Wells has two borders, one with
Northern Ireland through the port of | 0:36:20 | 0:36:23 | |
Holyhead and one with Ireland. What
will happen with that arrangement? | 0:36:23 | 0:36:27 | |
That is precisely why this needs to
be settled when the overall | 0:36:27 | 0:36:31 | |
arrangement. The right honourable
gentleman will have noted in the | 0:36:31 | 0:36:36 | |
endorsements of the continuation of
the Common travel area between the | 0:36:36 | 0:36:39 | |
United Kingdom and Republic of
Ireland and also the fact that | 0:36:39 | 0:36:43 | |
that's commitments was reflected
today's draft text from the | 0:36:43 | 0:36:46 | |
commission. Would it not be more
sensible and logical if Michel | 0:36:46 | 0:36:56 | |
Barnier focused more on the trade
arrangements on the United Kingdom | 0:36:56 | 0:37:04 | |
and the European Union where they
have a 70 billion pounds surplus | 0:37:04 | 0:37:08 | |
with the united kingdom rather than
focusing just on one part of the | 0:37:08 | 0:37:12 | |
United Kingdom? If they do that we
may only need to focus on one part | 0:37:12 | 0:37:19 | |
of the United Kingdom. Well, the
trade surplus that the EU 27 enjoy | 0:37:19 | 0:37:24 | |
with the United Kingdom,
particularly in trading goods, is | 0:37:24 | 0:37:28 | |
just one more compelling reason why
it is to our mutual advantage to | 0:37:28 | 0:37:34 | |
negotiate a future economic
partnership which allows trades to | 0:37:34 | 0:37:37 | |
be as frictionless as possible. The
Secretary of State is doing his | 0:37:37 | 0:37:42 | |
level best to fudge the principal
question, if we go into negotiations | 0:37:42 | 0:37:49 | |
that there will be no hard border
between the Republic and the | 0:37:49 | 0:37:55 | |
Northern Ireland, and no hard border
down the Irish Sea, how do we begin | 0:37:55 | 0:37:58 | |
to negotiate? What is the mechanism?
The mechanism is set out in the | 0:37:58 | 0:38:04 | |
joint report and in the government's
various speeches and publications | 0:38:04 | 0:38:08 | |
over the last 12 months. The latest
of which the Prime Minister will | 0:38:08 | 0:38:12 | |
deliver this Friday. Thank you, Mr
Speaker. I wonder if my right | 0:38:12 | 0:38:20 | |
honourable friend has pointed out
that the Irish government that the | 0:38:20 | 0:38:24 | |
biggest loser if there is not a
sensible agreement on tariffs are | 0:38:24 | 0:38:29 | |
imposed on Irish goods coming into
the United Kingdom, that the Irish | 0:38:29 | 0:38:32 | |
economy, there will be huge
devastation to the Irish | 0:38:32 | 0:38:38 | |
agricultural economy particularly. I
wonder if he is suggested to their | 0:38:38 | 0:38:41 | |
Prime Minister the question of
whether his is willing to sacrifice | 0:38:41 | 0:38:45 | |
the interest of the Irish economy on
the high altar of European political | 0:38:45 | 0:38:50 | |
integration? The economies of
Ireland and of the United Kingdom | 0:38:50 | 0:38:58 | |
are indeed intertwines but I would
reassure my honourable friend that | 0:38:58 | 0:39:05 | |
the Irish government and the
Taoiseach are themselves committed | 0:39:05 | 0:39:10 | |
in trying to resolve these matters
an option A in the joint report, | 0:39:10 | 0:39:18 | |
mainly through the means of an
overall economic agreement between | 0:39:18 | 0:39:21 | |
the United Kingdom and the European
Union. Does he share my astonishment | 0:39:21 | 0:39:36 | |
that is when four years his
leadership and assess watchtowers | 0:39:36 | 0:39:44 | |
and closed roads. Would he not agree
with me that first of all there are | 0:39:44 | 0:39:49 | |
clear practical proposals to avoid a
hard physical border and this | 0:39:49 | 0:39:58 | |
concern about Northern Ireland and
the Irish Republic is more about the | 0:39:58 | 0:40:02 | |
referendum result and keeping them
in the customs union. The | 0:40:02 | 0:40:13 | |
interventions on the front spent
about this week have been about more | 0:40:13 | 0:40:18 | |
about political opportunities than
principle. The way forward is in a | 0:40:18 | 0:40:28 | |
calm pragmatic spirit to take
forward the negotiations that will | 0:40:28 | 0:40:29 | |
shortly commence. Given that goods
and services are routinely traded | 0:40:29 | 0:40:40 | |
across land borders elsewhere in the
European Union is it not possible | 0:40:40 | 0:40:43 | |
that given the political will to
achieve the desired outcome that is | 0:40:43 | 0:40:47 | |
always needed? Will my right
honourable friend ensure that we do | 0:40:47 | 0:40:51 | |
not sign up to what the European
Union dictate now but we look at the | 0:40:51 | 0:40:56 | |
creative solution that has been used
elsewhere in EU borders? | 0:40:56 | 0:41:06 | |
Mr Speaker, this House has received
assurance after assurance from the | 0:41:06 | 0:41:10 | |
government that there will be no
hard border in Ireland. Why then did | 0:41:10 | 0:41:14 | |
the Foreign Secretary right in his
memo that there was the possibility | 0:41:14 | 0:41:17 | |
of such a hard border coming about?
The policy of the government is the | 0:41:17 | 0:41:25 | |
policy that has been agreed by the
Cabinet, set out in error agreement | 0:41:25 | 0:41:30 | |
to the joint report last December
and expressed in the speech as the | 0:41:30 | 0:41:35 | |
Prime Minister has given in the last
12 months. -- in error agreement. | 0:41:35 | 0:41:43 | |
The European Union approach to
sequencing these negotiations means | 0:41:43 | 0:41:46 | |
that the commission at the moment
only has a mandate to negotiate the | 0:41:46 | 0:41:50 | |
implementation phase and therefore
these issues cannot be dealt with | 0:41:50 | 0:41:53 | |
until after the end of March. So as
my honourable friend agree that | 0:41:53 | 0:41:58 | |
during this period, the guiding star
for all of us as to be that the | 0:41:58 | 0:42:03 | |
United Kingdom, the Republic of
Ireland and European Union are | 0:42:03 | 0:42:06 | |
agreed that there will be no art and
physical border and that this debate | 0:42:06 | 0:42:10 | |
is about the Foreign Secretary spar
with our Foreign Secretary more than | 0:42:10 | 0:42:16 | |
anything else. I think our
honourable friend is spot on. It | 0:42:16 | 0:42:24 | |
seems the government is happy to
contemplate the hard border with | 0:42:24 | 0:42:27 | |
Ireland, which would be a disaster
for Northern Ireland. Is it clear | 0:42:27 | 0:42:32 | |
now that the government has been
negotiating in bad faith with | 0:42:32 | 0:42:36 | |
Northern Ireland and the other
countries of the EU? I think the | 0:42:36 | 0:42:43 | |
lady's party would be happy with a
hard border. The government... I | 0:42:43 | 0:42:48 | |
don't want her or anyone in the
House to be under any | 0:42:48 | 0:42:53 | |
misapprehension, the government is
absolutely committed to what it | 0:42:53 | 0:42:56 | |
agreed in the joint report and we
have ever since the referendum made | 0:42:56 | 0:43:00 | |
it clear that we are not going to
support our hard border on the | 0:43:00 | 0:43:05 | |
island of Ireland. Can my right
honourable friend confirm that trade | 0:43:05 | 0:43:13 | |
between Northern Ireland and Great
Britain is far greater in volume | 0:43:13 | 0:43:17 | |
than between Northern Ireland and
the Republic of Ireland, Northern | 0:43:17 | 0:43:22 | |
Ireland and the European Union,
Northern Ireland and indeed the rest | 0:43:22 | 0:43:25 | |
of the world? Not only is that true,
but it is also the case that trade | 0:43:25 | 0:43:32 | |
between Ireland and the great
Britain is more important than trade | 0:43:32 | 0:43:41 | |
from south to north, between Ireland
and Northern Ireland. Which | 0:43:41 | 0:43:45 | |
reinforces the point it is the
mutual interests of all parties to | 0:43:45 | 0:43:50 | |
agree on an ambitious economic
partnership for the future. Can the | 0:43:50 | 0:43:56 | |
Minister confirm that cameras
counters infrastructure. Can he | 0:43:56 | 0:44:00 | |
point to an example anywhere in the
world of an international border | 0:44:00 | 0:44:04 | |
with no customs union and no border
infrastructure, just one example | 0:44:04 | 0:44:08 | |
anywhere? The language of the joint
report is very clear, the associated | 0:44:08 | 0:44:16 | |
physical infrastructure is ruled
out. The success of modern Northern | 0:44:16 | 0:44:25 | |
Ireland can be seen in the fact my
friends whose parents used to dread | 0:44:25 | 0:44:31 | |
the school run can with the kids off
without a second thought. All these | 0:44:31 | 0:44:37 | |
agree that there will be a full
security assessment. There will be a | 0:44:37 | 0:44:42 | |
proper analysis of security will be
undertaken by the appropriate | 0:44:42 | 0:44:48 | |
agencies in any and all
circumstances where that is | 0:44:48 | 0:44:51 | |
required. My honourable friend is
right to say that one of the great | 0:44:51 | 0:44:56 | |
achievements of constitutional
politics in Northern Ireland, over | 0:44:56 | 0:45:00 | |
the last 25 years, has been to bring
about a measure of peace and | 0:45:00 | 0:45:08 | |
security after decades when people
lived under the threat of terrorism. | 0:45:08 | 0:45:12 | |
And we should welcome and rededicate
ourselves to making sure that | 0:45:12 | 0:45:16 | |
process continues. He is forgetting
the reason he is in the chamber this | 0:45:16 | 0:45:23 | |
afternoon is because of the memo the
Foreign Secretary wrote and no other | 0:45:23 | 0:45:26 | |
reason. Can you answer the question
and tell us why the Foreign | 0:45:26 | 0:45:32 | |
Secretary wrote the memo to the
Prime Minister? As I said to the | 0:45:32 | 0:45:36 | |
Right honourable gentleman earlier,
in any government, ministers, write | 0:45:36 | 0:45:45 | |
letters and memoranda, have
conversations from time to time. The | 0:45:45 | 0:45:49 | |
policy of government under our
system is the policy that is agreed | 0:45:49 | 0:45:52 | |
collectively by the Cabinet and the
policy of the Cabinet and government | 0:45:52 | 0:45:56 | |
is what I have set out today. Can I
also add... Does he agree that the | 0:45:56 | 0:46:09 | |
evidence given that two -- two tier
system could help to avoid the | 0:46:09 | 0:46:19 | |
physical infrastructure we all want
to avoid? Those where items that | 0:46:19 | 0:46:25 | |
were also mentioned in the
government's position paper that was | 0:46:25 | 0:46:29 | |
published last summer about the
Irish border. And I am not saying | 0:46:29 | 0:46:36 | |
those were necessarily provide a
comparison of solution, but it is | 0:46:36 | 0:46:42 | |
evidence of goodwill in seeking
pragmatic and sizeable ways forward. | 0:46:42 | 0:46:49 | |
It has been deeply irresponsible. I
would like to ask again, the Foreign | 0:46:49 | 0:46:59 | |
Secretary wrote, if a hard border is
introduced. He has been clear about | 0:46:59 | 0:47:06 | |
their foreign -- Cabinet position
was. Ministers, when they have | 0:47:06 | 0:47:12 | |
private correspondent, engage in all
sorts of speculative thinking to | 0:47:12 | 0:47:17 | |
test out ideas before they are
brought for collective discussion | 0:47:17 | 0:47:22 | |
and decision. The government
collectively is accountable to this | 0:47:22 | 0:47:28 | |
House or the policies that the
government has adopted. The | 0:47:28 | 0:47:33 | |
government has ruled out both a hard
border between Northern Ireland and | 0:47:33 | 0:47:38 | |
Ireland, and border in the Irish
Sea. How dare the EU propose a | 0:47:38 | 0:47:49 | |
break-up of the United kingdom into
two trading zones. Both levers and | 0:47:49 | 0:47:57 | |
Remainers are increasingly angered
by this stroppy petulant and | 0:47:57 | 0:48:01 | |
unreasonable approach to these
negotiations by the European Union. | 0:48:01 | 0:48:06 | |
Will my honourable friend tell the
EU in these negotiations they have | 0:48:06 | 0:48:09 | |
not got off to a good start? I think
that... What we learnt at the end of | 0:48:09 | 0:48:18 | |
2017 was that despite all the
predictions about the imminent | 0:48:18 | 0:48:25 | |
collapse of the negotiating process
at that time, that with political | 0:48:25 | 0:48:30 | |
will, both from London and from 27
partners, and the European | 0:48:30 | 0:48:35 | |
Commission, that an agreement could
be reached. And I think that provide | 0:48:35 | 0:48:39 | |
a very good process -- basis from
which to move forward now. Sir John | 0:48:39 | 0:48:45 | |
Major and Tony Blair warned you in
the EU referendum campaign that this | 0:48:45 | 0:48:49 | |
would be it an issue. What he has
said today in the dispatch box is | 0:48:49 | 0:48:55 | |
simply impossible. We are not
talking about a backbencher or a | 0:48:55 | 0:48:59 | |
backbencher Ora Parliamentary
undersecretary. We are talking about | 0:48:59 | 0:49:02 | |
the Foreign Secretary who has a
central role in the heart of | 0:49:02 | 0:49:07 | |
negotiations, who is entertaining
the prospect of a hard border that | 0:49:07 | 0:49:10 | |
he says that Tasman ruled out. The
only question is, is this the | 0:49:10 | 0:49:16 | |
settled position of the government,
is the Foreign Secretary says he is | 0:49:16 | 0:49:21 | |
going to publish a memo Ireland when
is he going to do it? Is it not the | 0:49:21 | 0:49:26 | |
case that the Foreign Secretary
should have had the guts to come | 0:49:26 | 0:49:29 | |
here and answer for themselves and
clean-up up his own mess if he | 0:49:29 | 0:49:32 | |
cannot answer for him? The
government was my policy is what I | 0:49:32 | 0:49:36 | |
have set out. What we're doing at
the start of the negotiating process | 0:49:36 | 0:49:41 | |
is to bring forward ideas and
develop those internally in | 0:49:41 | 0:49:44 | |
government about how we would wish
to give practical application to the | 0:49:44 | 0:49:49 | |
commitments we have entered into.
The Prime Minister will see more | 0:49:49 | 0:49:52 | |
about on Friday. The differences in
tax, economic strategy and currency | 0:49:52 | 0:50:00 | |
has proven to be no hindrance to
that free and open land. We give an | 0:50:00 | 0:50:06 | |
absolute declaration that the UK
will not, under any circumstances, | 0:50:06 | 0:50:12 | |
implement and new Northern Ireland
and Republic border. If the EU | 0:50:12 | 0:50:17 | |
requires a new hard border, it is a
matter for them and the republic to | 0:50:17 | 0:50:24 | |
decide and implement. We,
unilaterally if necessary, will | 0:50:24 | 0:50:29 | |
honour the Belfast agreement and
indeed strengthen our union of the | 0:50:29 | 0:50:32 | |
UK. I think... My honourable friend
was right to talk about the | 0:50:32 | 0:50:40 | |
resolution of the United Kingdom
government. In fairness, we do need | 0:50:40 | 0:50:45 | |
to acknowledge that the government
of Ireland, too, is committed to try | 0:50:45 | 0:50:49 | |
and make sure that no hard border is
created and the Taoiseach and his | 0:50:49 | 0:50:56 | |
government are committed to working
constructively as part of the EU 27 | 0:50:56 | 0:50:59 | |
with us to find a way forward in
terms of a future economic | 0:50:59 | 0:51:04 | |
partnership. There is a member of
the House that lives closer to the | 0:51:04 | 0:51:11 | |
Northern Ireland border than anyone
else in the chamber. Can I ask this | 0:51:11 | 0:51:15 | |
focus of a hard border, does the
government and all his colleagues in | 0:51:15 | 0:51:20 | |
the government, the Irish government
and the EU negotiators understand | 0:51:20 | 0:51:24 | |
that any top on a principle of a
hard border is irrelevant because it | 0:51:24 | 0:51:28 | |
would be totally impossible to
police 310 crossing points and | 0:51:28 | 0:51:35 | |
everyone locally would how to
circumvent them if they tried! | 0:51:35 | 0:51:38 | |
Particularly conscious that in
County Londonderry people are | 0:51:38 | 0:51:44 | |
commuting to and from work,
businesses are supplying customers, | 0:51:44 | 0:51:49 | |
people are travelling to and from
the doctors across the international | 0:51:49 | 0:51:55 | |
jurisdictional border. It is very
important in terms of people being | 0:51:55 | 0:51:57 | |
able to go about their everyday
lives that we reach the kind of | 0:51:57 | 0:52:02 | |
agreement to which the government
here and the Irish government are | 0:52:02 | 0:52:05 | |
committed. Would he just define for
the House what the government meant | 0:52:05 | 0:52:13 | |
work he said a guaranteed no hard
border, what does that actually | 0:52:13 | 0:52:17 | |
involved? It is exactly what we said
in a commitment to the joint report | 0:52:17 | 0:52:27 | |
in December and in the position
papers that we published back last | 0:52:27 | 0:52:30 | |
summer. Last night in the other
place we had the second reading of | 0:52:30 | 0:52:40 | |
the roads, trailer registration
bill. It is the first piece of | 0:52:40 | 0:52:45 | |
contingency planning. Can he clarify
how the government will make sure no | 0:52:45 | 0:52:51 | |
checks on the registration between
the Republic of Northern Ireland and | 0:52:51 | 0:52:54 | |
Northern Ireland and how this will
be consistent with its current | 0:52:54 | 0:53:00 | |
legislation on holiday? We do
believe that the bill is completely | 0:53:00 | 0:53:04 | |
compliant with our commitments under
the joint report. But I will as the | 0:53:04 | 0:53:08 | |
Transport Secretary to write to them
with detail. The Good Friday | 0:53:08 | 0:53:14 | |
Agreement is an international
multiparty agreement, endorsed by | 0:53:14 | 0:53:18 | |
referendums on both sides of the
Irish border. The decision to leave | 0:53:18 | 0:53:22 | |
the customs union and single
market... Does he accept it is the | 0:53:22 | 0:53:29 | |
responsibility of his government to
bring forward detailed workable | 0:53:29 | 0:53:33 | |
proposals as to how his government
unilateral headlines can be made | 0:53:33 | 0:53:38 | |
compatible and can he tell is how
much longer we have to wait until we | 0:53:38 | 0:53:42 | |
see those proposals in print? We are
at the start of a process of | 0:53:42 | 0:53:46 | |
negotiation. The honourable
gentleman would not want me to go | 0:53:46 | 0:53:55 | |
into entire detail. I hope when he
sees what the Prime Minister says on | 0:53:55 | 0:54:00 | |
Friday and when he has the
opportunity to question her after | 0:54:00 | 0:54:03 | |
her statement last Monday, that he
will feel reassured. Thank you. | 0:54:03 | 0:54:10 | |
Normally points of order come after.
But this relates to these exchanges | 0:54:10 | 0:54:14 | |
so I will take it now. Mr Speaker,
would it be in order for it to be | 0:54:14 | 0:54:20 | |
recorded that you quite rightly
acknowledged a number of hours in | 0:54:20 | 0:54:23 | |
that recent session that we had the
urgent question for speaking too | 0:54:23 | 0:54:28 | |
long. And not asking the short
questions of course some honourable | 0:54:28 | 0:54:33 | |
members are good at. But not all of
us. The reason for that and you will | 0:54:33 | 0:54:38 | |
correct me if I am wrong, is because
we have never add a proper | 0:54:38 | 0:54:42 | |
meaningful debate, or indeed a vote,
on this or any other Brexit matter | 0:54:42 | 0:54:49 | |
that would indeed help the
government in its negotiations and | 0:54:49 | 0:54:55 | |
indeed the uniter country. And this
is just one of many examples, Mr | 0:54:55 | 0:55:01 | |
Speaker, where Parliament's voices
profoundly lacking in the whole of | 0:55:01 | 0:55:04 | |
the Brexit process. There have been
debates in the committee of the | 0:55:04 | 0:55:14 | |
whole House report stage on the
withdrawal bill. But outstayed of | 0:55:14 | 0:55:21 | |
legislation, if memory serves me
correctly, what the right honourable | 0:55:21 | 0:55:27 | |
lady says is factually correct. She
will know that I have an unbridled | 0:55:27 | 0:55:35 | |
enthusiasm for debate, for votes,
and for sitting in the chair for | 0:55:35 | 0:55:43 | |
extended periods, listening to the
intellects of Einstein and the | 0:55:43 | 0:55:53 | |
eloquence of Demosthenes, which are
so regularly on display, from my | 0:55:53 | 0:55:59 | |
colleagues. In all parts of the
House. And I cannot get enough of | 0:55:59 | 0:56:07 | |
it. It may seem eccentric on my
part, but I love listening to my | 0:56:07 | 0:56:14 | |
colleagues. And the more debates,
and the more votes, the better. I am | 0:56:14 | 0:56:22 | |
most grateful to the right
honourable lady on whose point of | 0:56:22 | 0:56:26 | |
order I had only a moment's notice,
but which I enjoyed. If there are no | 0:56:26 | 0:56:34 | |
further points of order at this
stage, we come now to the urgent | 0:56:34 | 0:56:38 | |
question, Stephen Twigg. | 0:56:38 | 0:56:39 | |
Can I ask the Minister of State for
the foreign & Commonwealth Office to | 0:56:44 | 0:56:48 | |
make a statement to the House on the
Burmese government's failure to | 0:56:48 | 0:56:51 | |
issue visas to the members of the
international select committee? May | 0:56:51 | 0:57:01 | |
I thank the honourable gentleman for
local West Derby for his question, | 0:57:01 | 0:57:08 | |
i:e., like him and deeply
disappointed that the government of | 0:57:08 | 0:57:14 | |
Burma have not granted visas. This
displeasure has been communicated to | 0:57:14 | 0:57:19 | |
the Burmese authorities. I accept
that they do vital work providing | 0:57:19 | 0:57:24 | |
important oversight of UK aid
programme in Burma and beyond. The | 0:57:24 | 0:57:33 | |
aid committee was due to travel on
the 27th and 20th of February, when | 0:57:33 | 0:57:41 | |
no decision on visas was received in
the early morning of yesterday, it's | 0:57:41 | 0:57:49 | |
then cancelled the Burma leg of its
visit. I understand they will | 0:57:49 | 0:57:54 | |
continue at the second part of that
trip, travelling to Bangladesh, | 0:57:54 | 0:57:59 | |
supporting the Rohingya refugees
replace in those facilities. Burmese | 0:57:59 | 0:58:11 | |
officials have indicated three
reasons for the refusal. First, | 0:58:11 | 0:58:14 | |
there is an extended public holiday
in Burma. Secondly, access to rack | 0:58:14 | 0:58:23 | |
kind state is restricted for
security reasons. And finally, they | 0:58:23 | 0:58:30 | |
were unhappy that individual members
had signed a letter calling for the | 0:58:30 | 0:58:38 | |
senior general of the Burmese army
being called to account for the | 0:58:38 | 0:58:42 | |
military's behaviour. It is right, I
think, Mr Speaker, that this House | 0:58:42 | 0:58:49 | |
takes a close interest in this sort
of crisis and I know all members | 0:58:49 | 0:58:52 | |
here will continue to do so. The
government fully supports the work | 0:58:52 | 0:58:57 | |
of the committee. A conference about
in a tree was developed but the | 0:58:57 | 0:59:09 | |
British ambassador in the country
pressed repeatedly for visas to be | 0:59:09 | 0:59:15 | |
approved both in Burma and in the
Burmese embassy in London. I myself | 0:59:15 | 0:59:19 | |
spoke yesterday morning over the
telephone with the Burmese | 0:59:19 | 0:59:22 | |
ambassador to raise the status of
visas demonstrating just how | 0:59:22 | 0:59:26 | |
seriously the FCO takes this matter,
not least, as a courtesy to the | 0:59:26 | 0:59:31 | |
House. I understand you also read to
the Burmese ambassador, Mr Speaker, | 0:59:31 | 0:59:36 | |
and he intends to reply formally
setting out the reasons for the | 0:59:36 | 0:59:39 | |
refusal. Through DFID, ... The first
chance of UK funding is providing | 0:59:39 | 0:59:53 | |
emergency food and safe water and
hygiene for more than 180 thousand | 0:59:53 | 0:59:59 | |
people. The UK's emergency medical
team was deployed to save lives. | 0:59:59 | 1:00:06 | |
This decision to deny visas is
highly regrettable and will prevent | 1:00:06 | 1:00:10 | |
the committee from seeing some of
its work first hand. However, this | 1:00:10 | 1:00:15 | |
government must and will remain
committed to supporting Burma's | 1:00:15 | 1:00:19 | |
poorest and most vulnerable people.
Working with DFID, we will ensure | 1:00:19 | 1:00:25 | |
the committee has all the access
needed. In democracies, | 1:00:25 | 1:00:37 | |
parliamentarians to criticise
governments. This is a lesson that | 1:00:37 | 1:00:40 | |
the Burmese government will have to
learn. Thank you for granting this | 1:00:40 | 1:00:47 | |
urgent question. Can I thank the
Minister for his response. First of | 1:00:47 | 1:00:53 | |
all, I would like on behalf of the
entire committee to thank all of | 1:00:53 | 1:00:56 | |
those who have worked incredibly
hard over the last few days to try | 1:00:56 | 1:01:00 | |
and sort this matter out, including
you, Mr Speaker, as the Minister | 1:01:00 | 1:01:05 | |
rightly pointed out, you wrote
personally to the Burmese ambassador | 1:01:05 | 1:01:08 | |
in London. The Minister himself for
his intervention of which I'm very | 1:01:08 | 1:01:13 | |
grateful. And the team in Burma
particularly, the British | 1:01:13 | 1:01:20 | |
ambassador. Sadly, it was all to no
avail. The committee should write | 1:01:20 | 1:01:23 | |
now be on its way to Burma where we
were planning to look at some of the | 1:01:23 | 1:01:27 | |
fantastic work that DFID funds in
that country. We were told last week | 1:01:27 | 1:01:33 | |
that our visas had been approved
here in the United Kingdom, they had | 1:01:33 | 1:01:38 | |
been processed and they were ready
but the Burmese embassy in London | 1:01:38 | 1:01:42 | |
was awaiting final approval from
their government. Yesterday, our | 1:01:42 | 1:01:46 | |
passports were returned to us
without visas and clearly the | 1:01:46 | 1:01:49 | |
failure of the Burmese government to
grant these visas simply prevents us | 1:01:49 | 1:01:55 | |
from doing our job as a select
committee which is to oversee how | 1:01:55 | 1:02:00 | |
overseas developer and assistant is
spent in countries. I have no doubt | 1:02:00 | 1:02:05 | |
that a major part of the reason this
has happened is direct retaliation | 1:02:05 | 1:02:10 | |
for the report that we published
last month on the Rohingya crisis. I | 1:02:10 | 1:02:14 | |
believe there is a direct connection
between our report and these | 1:02:14 | 1:02:19 | |
actions. I thank the Minister for
shedding some light today in his | 1:02:19 | 1:02:23 | |
response to this urgent question
about the reasons that the Burmese | 1:02:23 | 1:02:27 | |
have now given for denying our
visas. I understand, Mr Speaker, | 1:02:27 | 1:02:31 | |
that it was Aung San Suu Kyi herself
who blocked the approval of our | 1:02:31 | 1:02:36 | |
visas. Some will argue and some have
argued this overnight on social | 1:02:36 | 1:02:43 | |
media that as a result of this we
should stop United Kingdom aid to | 1:02:43 | 1:02:47 | |
Burma. I agree with the Minister
that it would be a major mistake to | 1:02:47 | 1:02:51 | |
stop supporting programmes that help
the poorest, health programmes, | 1:02:51 | 1:02:55 | |
education programmes that make a
difference to the very poorest | 1:02:55 | 1:02:58 | |
people. We should not punish them.
However, with the Minister agree | 1:02:58 | 1:03:03 | |
with me that it is now the time for
us as a parliament and for the | 1:03:03 | 1:03:07 | |
government to review the programme
for Democratic change which is | 1:03:07 | 1:03:13 | |
working with the Burnley 's
parliament's? If we as | 1:03:13 | 1:03:17 | |
parliamentarians are not permitted
to go to that country and meet their | 1:03:17 | 1:03:22 | |
political leaders and look at how UK
aid is being sent whether it is | 1:03:22 | 1:03:25 | |
right that our taxpayers resourced
as is being spent on Parliamentary | 1:03:25 | 1:03:31 | |
strengthening in Burma. -- Bernie 's
parliament. Finally, I believe this | 1:03:31 | 1:03:43 | |
is to silence the treatment of the
Burmese government of the Rohingya. | 1:03:43 | 1:03:49 | |
Does he agree that we must double
our efforts on behalf of the | 1:03:49 | 1:03:53 | |
Rohingya people so they get the
justice they deserve? I thank the | 1:03:53 | 1:03:59 | |
honourable gentleman for his
thoughtful contribution as ever. And | 1:03:59 | 1:04:02 | |
thank you for the kind words about
the intervention of the Foreign | 1:04:02 | 1:04:05 | |
Office. I think it is direct
retaliation, I accept that. I would | 1:04:05 | 1:04:11 | |
not like to speculate whether there
has been a personal interception by | 1:04:11 | 1:04:14 | |
Aung San Suu Kyi but we may learn
more in the days to come and we will | 1:04:14 | 1:04:18 | |
discuss matters then. May I say that
I agree with much of what he has to | 1:04:18 | 1:04:22 | |
say and please rest assured that
particularly my right honourable | 1:04:22 | 1:04:26 | |
friend the Secretary of State for
DFID is working very closely to try | 1:04:26 | 1:04:33 | |
and reorganise programmes that we
have in Burma to take into account | 1:04:33 | 1:04:36 | |
many of the concerns that he has but
above all that we want to keep the | 1:04:36 | 1:04:41 | |
interest of the most vulnerable
closely in our minds. As I mentioned | 1:04:41 | 1:04:46 | |
earlier on, we are one of the
biggest single donors in this | 1:04:46 | 1:04:48 | |
terrible crisis. We have provided
money to both the Red Cross and the | 1:04:48 | 1:04:54 | |
world food programme to provide
assistance in the Burmese side of | 1:04:54 | 1:04:59 | |
the border. To be honest, given the
very severe humanitarian impact that | 1:04:59 | 1:05:06 | |
heavy rain and cyclones could have
on the population, we are heading | 1:05:06 | 1:05:11 | |
into the cyclone season in the next
month, this is something we will | 1:05:11 | 1:05:14 | |
keep under very open review. I would
also say, if I may, Mr Speaker, I | 1:05:14 | 1:05:20 | |
was in Brussels deputising for the
Foreign Secretary on Monday and we | 1:05:20 | 1:05:23 | |
agreed at that point with the EU
Council that the conclusions | 1:05:23 | 1:05:30 | |
initiating an work Sue introduced
targeted sanctions on elements of | 1:05:30 | 1:05:35 | |
the Burmese military. This work is
ongoing. You will appreciate some | 1:05:35 | 1:05:42 | |
difficulties we face, not least
because of the potential veto of | 1:05:42 | 1:05:47 | |
some of the permanent members of the
Security Council but we are doing a | 1:05:47 | 1:05:51 | |
lot at the EU level as well. Having
seen what is going on in Burma, it | 1:05:51 | 1:06:03 | |
is imperative that we continue to
assist the Rohingya people in their | 1:06:03 | 1:06:06 | |
hour of need. I would urge the
Minister to summon the Burnley 's | 1:06:06 | 1:06:15 | |
ambassador -- their ambassador for
Burma to spell out formally. Mr | 1:06:15 | 1:06:23 | |
Speaker, for those of us that
followed events in that country for | 1:06:23 | 1:06:26 | |
some time now, our policy was to
support Aung San Suu Kyi where we | 1:06:26 | 1:06:31 | |
could and were told that the
problems were with the military. If | 1:06:31 | 1:06:34 | |
it is now the case that she is no
longer part of the solution but is | 1:06:34 | 1:06:39 | |
indeed in some way part of the
problem, I do believe this is a time | 1:06:39 | 1:06:44 | |
to reassess our relationship with
the parliament, with the army in | 1:06:44 | 1:06:52 | |
Burma and the training and
assistance we have tried to give | 1:06:52 | 1:06:55 | |
them to make them a more democratic
military and indeed the range of | 1:06:55 | 1:07:02 | |
bilateral relations where fibre that
country. We simply cannot allow them | 1:07:02 | 1:07:06 | |
to away with this kind of behaviour.
I thank my right honourable friend | 1:07:06 | 1:07:10 | |
and obviously he was the predecessor
in the role that I now hold. And | 1:07:10 | 1:07:15 | |
must, very depressing given the high
hopes he had when he was in office. | 1:07:15 | 1:07:24 | |
I gather given the number of visits
he made to Burma at that time that | 1:07:24 | 1:07:28 | |
we were moving toward some sort of
democracy. In many ways, there are | 1:07:28 | 1:07:32 | |
some lessons we have learned is
perhaps in that time, as a small | 1:07:32 | 1:07:39 | |
amount of democracy, the Rohingya
will not included in the census, not | 1:07:39 | 1:07:43 | |
allowed to vote in elections, in
many ways we are seeing elements of | 1:07:43 | 1:07:47 | |
the consequences of that. Major say
in relation to his initial point | 1:07:47 | 1:07:54 | |
about the Burmese ambassador, we
will of course summon him over the | 1:07:54 | 1:07:59 | |
course of the next week to express
our deep displeasure at his | 1:07:59 | 1:08:03 | |
government's actions. The refusal of
visas for the international | 1:08:03 | 1:08:16 | |
development committee by the Myanmar
government is obvious the shocking. | 1:08:16 | 1:08:18 | |
It seems to be a response to their
critical report on the treatment of | 1:08:18 | 1:08:29 | |
the Rohingya. It might be on the
tightening of a use sanctions as the | 1:08:29 | 1:08:33 | |
Minister mentions. Banning people is
their stock response to criticism. | 1:08:33 | 1:08:37 | |
They have also banned the UN
fact-finding mission, the special | 1:08:37 | 1:08:41 | |
rapporteur, the UN refugee agency.
The UK has a £100 million aid | 1:08:41 | 1:08:50 | |
programme and significant
development investments. We have our | 1:08:50 | 1:08:53 | |
own Parliamentary strengthening
programme. It is completely | 1:08:53 | 1:08:55 | |
reasonable for the international
double in committee to visit Myanmar | 1:08:55 | 1:08:59 | |
and see how these are going. I think
the chair is right to say we need to | 1:08:59 | 1:09:04 | |
think again about the Parliamentary
strengthening programme but what I | 1:09:04 | 1:09:08 | |
would like to ask the Minister is
what is the Foreign Office going to | 1:09:08 | 1:09:11 | |
do to secure access both for British
parliamentarians and for the United | 1:09:11 | 1:09:18 | |
Nations agencies? The Right
Honourable lady will appreciate that | 1:09:18 | 1:09:27 | |
these are very difficult issues. We
are doing our best to work both | 1:09:27 | 1:09:32 | |
bilateral and then the international
community to try to secure that sort | 1:09:32 | 1:09:36 | |
of access. We are also working
quietly behind-the-scenes. There are | 1:09:36 | 1:09:42 | |
individuals known to Aung San Suu
Kyi over many years who have paid | 1:09:42 | 1:09:48 | |
visits and at least advise her at
the displeasure and concerns of the | 1:09:48 | 1:09:53 | |
international community. And the
reality is that the truth really is | 1:09:53 | 1:09:59 | |
that the military do have a whip
hand to very large extent on what is | 1:09:59 | 1:10:06 | |
going on in Burma. We will continue
to work tirelessly to and ensure | 1:10:06 | 1:10:11 | |
that we move forward. We want to see
some accountability for the crimes | 1:10:11 | 1:10:16 | |
that have been committed and I hope
that at some point when the UN | 1:10:16 | 1:10:21 | |
fact-finding mission can enter a
report that we will have a statement | 1:10:21 | 1:10:26 | |
in the House setting out our
position about the issue of impunity | 1:10:26 | 1:10:29 | |
for the future. | 1:10:29 | 1:10:33 | |
It is my strong belief that going
back to my initial point and the | 1:10:33 | 1:10:36 | |
point made by a the honourable
gentleman from Liverpool West Derby | 1:10:36 | 1:10:40 | |
we always have to remember that
frustrating though it is and she | 1:10:40 | 1:10:45 | |
rightly points out we have spent 100
win pounds a year on aid within | 1:10:45 | 1:10:52 | |
Burma, that actually the work being
done for the most vulnerable must | 1:10:52 | 1:10:56 | |
continue. It is very easy for us to
walk away. We want to be honest and | 1:10:56 | 1:11:01 | |
try and find within the military in
so far is that I'm more moderate | 1:11:01 | 1:11:05 | |
elements we can begin to work with
and that is why we have stock | 1:11:05 | 1:11:10 | |
programmes of training for the
military but we feel there are | 1:11:10 | 1:11:13 | |
individuals there who we should try
to keep lines of communication open | 1:11:13 | 1:11:17 | |
with and we will continue to do
that. This is one of the | 1:11:17 | 1:11:20 | |
frustrations in many ways of
democracy and diplomacy but we will | 1:11:20 | 1:11:23 | |
continue patiently but with some
urgency for the reasons I have said | 1:11:23 | 1:11:28 | |
that given the humanitarian
catastrophe taking place on the | 1:11:28 | 1:11:31 | |
Bangladeshi side of the border to
continue that. Mr Speaker, your own | 1:11:31 | 1:11:38 | |
role was instrumental in setting up
the Parliamentary strengthening | 1:11:38 | 1:11:41 | |
programme. The purpose of which is
to make their parliament more like | 1:11:41 | 1:11:46 | |
ours. Therefore it would be folly to
stop it no matter how insulted we | 1:11:46 | 1:11:51 | |
properly feel. I do share the right
honourable gentleman's concerns on | 1:11:51 | 1:12:01 | |
this and I in a previous ballad I
was on the business foundation for | 1:12:01 | 1:12:05 | |
democracy I played a role in trying
to work together and have integrated | 1:12:05 | 1:12:08 | |
programmes and they think I'm a
cross-party basis we would not I | 1:12:08 | 1:12:10 | |
think to begin desert in the biggest
hour of need some elements within | 1:12:10 | 1:12:18 | |
Burma reveal strongly about this
matter but equally Aphibarnrat | 1:12:18 | 1:12:22 | |
honourable friend will recognise
that there is a deep concern that we | 1:12:22 | 1:12:29 | |
cannot continue as though it is
business as usual in all our | 1:12:29 | 1:12:32 | |
relations with the Burmese
authorities but they very much hope | 1:12:32 | 1:12:35 | |
there will be some individuals who
will be able to work with to make | 1:12:35 | 1:12:38 | |
that country a better and more
democratic place in the years to | 1:12:38 | 1:12:40 | |
come. It goes without saying how
deeply disappointed I am to be in | 1:12:40 | 1:12:49 | |
this chamber along with my
International Development Committee | 1:12:49 | 1:12:51 | |
colleagues when I am supposed to be
on a plant like to Burma to see the | 1:12:51 | 1:12:55 | |
good work that they are doing in
areas also bitter disappointment | 1:12:55 | 1:13:00 | |
that I find out just now that Aung
San Suu Kyi is personally | 1:13:00 | 1:13:03 | |
responsible for blocking the visas
to give the essential work that we | 1:13:03 | 1:13:07 | |
are providing to her citizens in her
nation who are of the poorest and | 1:13:07 | 1:13:14 | |
most fundable. Difficult as a
substantial aid programme in Burma | 1:13:14 | 1:13:17 | |
and our job is to go out there to
see the good work being done and I | 1:13:17 | 1:13:20 | |
would want to put on record as the
member of Parliament for Dundee city | 1:13:20 | 1:13:27 | |
currently considering whether or not
to withdraw the freedom of the city, | 1:13:27 | 1:13:30 | |
with heavy heart I feel I will be
recommending that withdrawal of the | 1:13:30 | 1:13:34 | |
freedom after hearing what I have
heard today. Can the secretary tell | 1:13:34 | 1:13:37 | |
me that what assurances he would
give or indeed the Minister, what | 1:13:37 | 1:13:40 | |
assurances can be given for future
visits to Burma to see the essential | 1:13:40 | 1:13:44 | |
work being carried out in the
regions which include Bracken state | 1:13:44 | 1:13:50 | |
and can he give us an opportunity to
give a further explanation given the | 1:13:50 | 1:14:00 | |
fact we are a democracy here and
support democracy in Burma in | 1:14:00 | 1:14:04 | |
particular Aung San Suu Kyi and
widely very remarks, I sang that and | 1:14:04 | 1:14:08 | |
I endorse anyone else to sign up
later, if there are war crimes and | 1:14:08 | 1:14:15 | |
mass atrocities being carried out in
Rakhine state, I hope Aung San Suu | 1:14:15 | 1:14:22 | |
Kyi is listening to this message
today because she should also be | 1:14:22 | 1:14:27 | |
speaking out. I would like to hear
there will be further explanation | 1:14:27 | 1:14:30 | |
and if there has been anything we
have lost in this Parliament, is | 1:14:30 | 1:14:36 | |
asked to be rebranded and lastly to
have an apology from the Burmese | 1:14:36 | 1:14:39 | |
authorities. May I think the
honourable judgment but Andy West we | 1:14:39 | 1:14:45 | |
were able to speak before the
disappointment became apparent the | 1:14:45 | 1:14:49 | |
refusal was in place and I wish him
and the rest of the Committee all | 1:14:49 | 1:14:53 | |
the rest and be able to see is much
as they can in Bangladesh, but I | 1:14:53 | 1:14:56 | |
think it is depressing and it would
be more worthwhile to be able to go | 1:14:56 | 1:15:00 | |
into Rakhine State to sit where I
know is whether intended to be. I | 1:15:00 | 1:15:05 | |
don't want to spend the time, to
defend Aung San Suu Kyi but we have | 1:15:05 | 1:15:14 | |
a bilateral relationship and we want
to try to keep lines of medication | 1:15:14 | 1:15:17 | |
open. The recognition has to be to
the Burmese military who have been | 1:15:17 | 1:15:21 | |
responsible for many of the
atrocities that have taken place in | 1:15:21 | 1:15:24 | |
the aftermath of the 20th of August
and I think we should not forget | 1:15:24 | 1:15:29 | |
that amidst great disappointment
that was shared by many members of | 1:15:29 | 1:15:31 | |
Parliament given the great high
hopes they had with the new regime | 1:15:31 | 1:15:35 | |
when it came into play only a couple
of years ago. That we just say this | 1:15:35 | 1:15:40 | |
about issues of accountability. The
immediate task I think will be to | 1:15:40 | 1:15:43 | |
support those who are building
evidence and testimony. The task of | 1:15:43 | 1:15:47 | |
been ongoing over the past six
months. A number of organisations | 1:15:47 | 1:15:51 | |
will be left collecting that
testimony and we will be considering | 1:15:51 | 1:15:56 | |
how best we can support that range
non-governmental organisations. If | 1:15:56 | 1:16:01 | |
it is Burma is not a party to the
statute of the International | 1:16:01 | 1:16:05 | |
criminal Court, Cosmo see PIC will
not have jurisdiction, or it would | 1:16:05 | 1:16:09 | |
only have jurisdiction over the
alleged crime if Burma was to revert | 1:16:09 | 1:16:13 | |
to accord, an unlikely scenario, or
there was a referral to the UN | 1:16:13 | 1:16:18 | |
Security Council which I think is
unlikely. So we are working and hope | 1:16:18 | 1:16:24 | |
to come back to the hazard some
point before too long and working to | 1:16:24 | 1:16:27 | |
a strategy of how impunity can be
and account ability, can be put to | 1:16:27 | 1:16:34 | |
those to some who have committed
some of these terrible crimes. As a | 1:16:34 | 1:16:40 | |
member of the Committee I'm a bit
disappointed we are not going. | 1:16:40 | 1:16:43 | |
Mainly because we were trying to see
both sides, but the Burmese side and | 1:16:43 | 1:16:51 | |
the Bangladeshi side, to see how
these terrible -- terribly burnable | 1:16:51 | 1:16:56 | |
people are being treated on either
side and I think the Bangladesh side | 1:16:56 | 1:16:59 | |
were doing a magnificent job --
terribly vulnerable people. We | 1:16:59 | 1:17:08 | |
recognise it was a Bank Holiday, it
was quite dangerous to go up there | 1:17:08 | 1:17:13 | |
but we were prepared if we could
possibly go to go and now we have | 1:17:13 | 1:17:17 | |
been thwarted and I do think, I
don't know whether there was truth | 1:17:17 | 1:17:22 | |
in the fact that Aung San Suu Kyi
did have a hand in it, but I hope | 1:17:22 | 1:17:27 | |
the Minister will ask and find out
and report back to this House | 1:17:27 | 1:17:31 | |
because I think that this incredibly
serious because someone who has her | 1:17:31 | 1:17:37 | |
before, as many millions of people
in this country have, the shine will | 1:17:37 | 1:17:43 | |
definitely have gone off her halo if
that is the case. I think I | 1:17:43 | 1:17:51 | |
honourable than for what she says we
will do our level best to try to get | 1:17:51 | 1:17:54 | |
the bottom of exactly what has
happened and who is responsible. | 1:17:54 | 1:17:58 | |
That media say this. I know it is
often felt when parliamentarians | 1:17:58 | 1:18:02 | |
visit other countries that they all
get teased by our constituents that | 1:18:02 | 1:18:07 | |
say this is all one big jolly that
we are heading off, I had to sit on | 1:18:07 | 1:18:15 | |
my own part as many know I was
speaking in these notes tragically | 1:18:15 | 1:18:22 | |
in September, it has made a
difference to my understanding to | 1:18:22 | 1:18:25 | |
the situation and the two sides have
happened, and my opportunity to go | 1:18:25 | 1:18:33 | |
visit Bangladesh and I think it is
invaluable work that is done and | 1:18:33 | 1:18:38 | |
gives a real sense of perspective
and certainly a Committee such as | 1:18:38 | 1:18:41 | |
this rightly is holding a government
department to account and needs to | 1:18:41 | 1:18:47 | |
be able to see on the grounds the
work that is being done. May I also | 1:18:47 | 1:18:51 | |
take some tribute, not perhaps for
me to pay tribute, hopefully the | 1:18:51 | 1:18:57 | |
Committee, for my right honourable
friend the Secretary of State, I | 1:18:57 | 1:19:01 | |
think she has expended huge amount
of time and energy and passion on | 1:19:01 | 1:19:05 | |
this particular issue. They think
she is very much on top of the issue | 1:19:05 | 1:19:09 | |
to recognise that we have to have
some fundamental changes in the way | 1:19:09 | 1:19:12 | |
in which we look at programmes
particularly within Burma and I know | 1:19:12 | 1:19:16 | |
that we are much respected across
the globe for the tremendous | 1:19:16 | 1:19:19 | |
contribution we have made since the
row up prices came to pass. -- | 1:19:19 | 1:19:25 | |
Rohingya crisis. This is hugely
disappointing for the Select | 1:19:25 | 1:19:31 | |
Committee and shocking if it is true
what the honourable member the | 1:19:31 | 1:19:34 | |
Liverpool West Derby said that Aung
San Suu Kyi may have been | 1:19:34 | 1:19:38 | |
responsible for blocking the betas
although it will not dampen the | 1:19:38 | 1:19:42 | |
effort and determination to the
Committee to keep the pressure on. | 1:19:42 | 1:19:45 | |
Is it a clear signal that the
diplomatic relationship is breaking | 1:19:45 | 1:19:47 | |
down which is frankly understandable
and in some way even reassuring | 1:19:47 | 1:19:52 | |
because a regime that commit ethnic
cleansing is no ally of hours. The | 1:19:52 | 1:19:55 | |
Minister is absolutely right that we
must continue to help support the | 1:19:55 | 1:20:02 | |
most vulnerable people in May on my
particular the Rohingya but can I | 1:20:02 | 1:20:06 | |
press him for accountability for
those in the military, a discussion | 1:20:06 | 1:20:15 | |
with the security Council for the
possibility to refer those who both | 1:20:15 | 1:20:20 | |
for the responsibilities --
atrocities to the criminal court. | 1:20:20 | 1:20:26 | |
The UK continues to work to maintain
the UN Security Council's focus on | 1:20:26 | 1:20:33 | |
Rakhine State and she will be very
aware that in recent weeks, the | 1:20:33 | 1:20:36 | |
Syrian issue has been very important
and clearly last autumn a lot of | 1:20:36 | 1:20:40 | |
focus on what was happening on the
Korean Pincher but that is not to | 1:20:40 | 1:20:44 | |
say we aren't persistent to try and
get this as high-profile as possible | 1:20:44 | 1:20:50 | |
and our own request the Security
Council held Google briefing on the | 1:20:50 | 1:20:53 | |
13th of to focus on the very
specific issue of returns and the | 1:20:53 | 1:20:58 | |
likelihood of returned happening.
The UN security council statement, | 1:20:58 | 1:21:05 | |
first decade, last year, the UK was
that and focusing attention on what | 1:21:05 | 1:21:14 | |
is happening in Burma. We are
providing a response to the | 1:21:14 | 1:21:18 | |
fact-finding report of the human
rights Council which is due in March | 1:21:18 | 1:21:21 | |
and be co-sponsored the UN human
rights Council General Assembly | 1:21:21 | 1:21:26 | |
resolutions. I have to say to the
honourable lady however that the | 1:21:26 | 1:21:31 | |
notion that we have a headlong rush
to a UN Security Council resolution, | 1:21:31 | 1:21:35 | |
the feeling on the ground from
representatives is that almost | 1:21:35 | 1:21:38 | |
certainly would be vetoed by the
Chinese and probably by the Russians | 1:21:38 | 1:21:42 | |
as well. That is not to say that at
some point we might not test that | 1:21:42 | 1:21:47 | |
further but I believe there are
other avenues that we wish to pursue | 1:21:47 | 1:21:50 | |
and one of the reasons that I have
been so pleased to be able to work | 1:21:50 | 1:21:54 | |
together with our colleagues in the
European Union is that actually to | 1:21:54 | 1:21:57 | |
get sanctions from that quarter as I
think will make some progress | 1:21:57 | 1:22:03 | |
particularly against leading lights
within the military. I am | 1:22:03 | 1:22:10 | |
pro-pleased that the Minister is in
his place because his work on the | 1:22:10 | 1:22:14 | |
question of Burma has been
impressive over these many months | 1:22:14 | 1:22:17 | |
and the work of the Ambassador
country and has been impressive and | 1:22:17 | 1:22:22 | |
none of this, I am sure he couldn't
have done more. This is a very | 1:22:22 | 1:22:27 | |
distressing scene. I have however
torn between the desire to ensure we | 1:22:27 | 1:22:34 | |
have oversight of the enormous on
the money we're spending and that we | 1:22:34 | 1:22:37 | |
promote cause of democracy and here
I speak with an interest because one | 1:22:37 | 1:22:42 | |
of the clerks who has been to make
the door is the second clerk of the | 1:22:42 | 1:22:48 | |
Foreign Affairs Committee and the
clerk who is going... If they have | 1:22:48 | 1:22:54 | |
learnt 1% of the knowledge that
these two fabulous individuals can | 1:22:54 | 1:22:58 | |
impart it would be a huge blessing
to the Burmese people and a great | 1:22:58 | 1:23:03 | |
blessing to do a Sinjar between the
United Kingdom and Burma. I thank | 1:23:03 | 1:23:08 | |
him for his insights and I will pass
the message on. It is worth pointing | 1:23:08 | 1:23:16 | |
out a little bit about the bilateral
action that continues to take place. | 1:23:16 | 1:23:20 | |
Many members will be aware the
Foreign Secretary was in Burma | 1:23:20 | 1:23:22 | |
during the most recent recess and
that Aung San Suu Kyi then stressing | 1:23:22 | 1:23:27 | |
refugees must feel to returning home
and need to be supervised at the | 1:23:27 | 1:23:32 | |
UNHCR. Aung San Suu Kyi was spoken
to no fewer than five times since | 1:23:32 | 1:23:38 | |
the crisis began last August. I met
her last September and the Defence | 1:23:38 | 1:23:42 | |
Minister and Deputy First Minister
-- deputy Foreign Minister, in | 1:23:42 | 1:23:47 | |
Ecuador in November. I will, that
work will continue to bring as many | 1:23:47 | 1:23:55 | |
options as possible to be able to
discuss as far as we can but there | 1:23:55 | 1:23:59 | |
is some fantastic expertise that we
need to try to channel into and keep | 1:23:59 | 1:24:03 | |
the pressure on as far as possible.
The United Nations High Commissioner | 1:24:03 | 1:24:12 | |
for human rights has described what
has been happening to the Rohingya | 1:24:12 | 1:24:15 | |
as a textbook case of ethnic
cleansing. Isn't the withholding of | 1:24:15 | 1:24:20 | |
visas from myself and other members
of the International Development | 1:24:20 | 1:24:22 | |
Committee a textbook case and with
an authoritarian regime with | 1:24:22 | 1:24:27 | |
something to hide trying to shield
itself from legitimate international | 1:24:27 | 1:24:31 | |
scrutiny. And if Aung San Suu Kyi is
indeed responsible for that, that it | 1:24:31 | 1:24:37 | |
is nothing short of disgraceful.
With the Minister agree with me that | 1:24:37 | 1:24:42 | |
all this points to the fact that the
international community has to be | 1:24:42 | 1:24:45 | |
far more assertive in rising for
unimpeded humanitarian access to | 1:24:45 | 1:24:51 | |
Rakhine State? I would agree with
that. I don't want to cast judgment | 1:24:51 | 1:24:58 | |
until we know the facts about any
involvement of Aung San Suu Kyi or | 1:24:58 | 1:25:03 | |
other senior members in relation to
the future but I think he is right | 1:25:03 | 1:25:06 | |
that this is something that is a
textbook case of the worst elements | 1:25:06 | 1:25:11 | |
of an increasingly close regime but
I would repeat to him as I have said | 1:25:11 | 1:25:16 | |
at the outset, in the midst of our
displeasure, anger, frustration at | 1:25:16 | 1:25:23 | |
not being able to visit there,
please remember the interests of | 1:25:23 | 1:25:27 | |
those millions in Burma and so
desperately need our help and | 1:25:27 | 1:25:31 | |
support. | 1:25:31 | 1:25:42 | |
Thank you for your letter, which was
well received. When she was here, | 1:25:42 | 1:25:50 | |
she said when she saw us discussing
it, they were moving towards | 1:25:50 | 1:25:56 | |
democracy, but unfortunately the
country is heading in the wrong | 1:25:56 | 1:25:58 | |
direction. Since I saw you cheered
the parliamentary group in 2005, I | 1:25:58 | 1:26:05 | |
always wanted to help move
democracy, and that is what I intend | 1:26:05 | 1:26:10 | |
to do as the coach here. --
co-chair. We will also look at the | 1:26:10 | 1:26:26 | |
health for all of the ethnic groups.
Does the Minister agree with me that | 1:26:26 | 1:26:31 | |
now the International development
committee is going to be carrying on | 1:26:31 | 1:26:35 | |
its work, it will only be speaking
to people which gives a one-sided | 1:26:35 | 1:26:42 | |
view that the Bernd government could
take some time to reply, but makes | 1:26:42 | 1:26:49 | |
the work harder for those of us who
want to take a holistic view of | 1:26:49 | 1:26:53 | |
Burma as a country. -- a one-sided
view that the Burmese man government | 1:26:53 | 1:26:58 | |
could take. I do not know where he
gets the time to do all of this | 1:26:58 | 1:27:05 | |
work. Joking aside, please may I say
this, I agree with everything he has | 1:27:05 | 1:27:15 | |
to say, and we need to look at all
sides to see what extent there is | 1:27:15 | 1:27:19 | |
efficacy in being able to return to
Burma at the earliest opportunity. | 1:27:19 | 1:27:24 | |
Please keep the faith with Burma and
by means. However, -- the Burmese | 1:27:24 | 1:27:35 | |
man. Remember this is important work
being done, and we have a lot of | 1:27:35 | 1:27:49 | |
commitment going to historic
reasons, but keep the faith. I am | 1:27:49 | 1:27:55 | |
disappointed as one of the committee
members refused if these are. I am | 1:27:55 | 1:28:00 | |
also disappointed as a member of
Parliament that represents a city | 1:28:00 | 1:28:03 | |
that gave Aung San Suu Kyi not only
the freedom of the | 1:28:03 | 1:28:24 | |
city, but... Will the government
look at convening an emergency | 1:28:28 | 1:28:37 | |
summit to put sanctions in place not
only against Burma, but possibly | 1:28:37 | 1:28:41 | |
even considering Aung San Suu Kyi's
family assets here in the UK. We | 1:28:41 | 1:28:50 | |
will also immediately review some of
our other aid products including the | 1:28:50 | 1:28:54 | |
£500 million we have given to a
university on a project with Oxford | 1:28:54 | 1:28:59 | |
University last month to make sure
that money is not being used for | 1:28:59 | 1:29:06 | |
academic work which undermines the
Rohingya. He is right to identify | 1:29:06 | 1:29:25 | |
the fact that the issue around the
Rohingya, terrible how it is, is on | 1:29:25 | 1:29:30 | |
a different scale than other
minorities, which have suffered for | 1:29:30 | 1:29:35 | |
many decades. I think I have covered
some of the issues about why we have | 1:29:35 | 1:29:40 | |
not gone for the UN Security Council
resolution at this stage, and I hope | 1:29:40 | 1:29:46 | |
whatever investment is being made
between Rangoon and Oxford is being | 1:29:46 | 1:29:53 | |
done for positive reasons and we
should not necessarily except, but | 1:29:53 | 1:29:59 | |
need to get to the bottom of it. I
was very depressed to learn last | 1:29:59 | 1:30:03 | |
night that the visas had not come
through. I do not know what the | 1:30:03 | 1:30:08 | |
Hermes authority think we're going
to do now, give up and shrug our | 1:30:08 | 1:30:12 | |
shoulders? -- Burmese authority.
We're not going to do that, we are | 1:30:12 | 1:30:22 | |
democratically elected select
committee. Within our parliament we | 1:30:22 | 1:30:25 | |
do not have a quarter for the
military, everyone is elected in the | 1:30:25 | 1:30:29 | |
same matter. -- Manor. It is
important to stress the money we | 1:30:29 | 1:30:35 | |
give is the for the people and it
does go to the military regime and | 1:30:35 | 1:30:39 | |
it doesn't go through the military
regime. The reason it is so month is | 1:30:39 | 1:30:43 | |
the -- the reason it is so much is
because of the militaries team. And | 1:30:43 | 1:30:48 | |
I thank you, Mr Speaker, for
everything you have done. You were | 1:30:48 | 1:30:51 | |
one of the champions of Aung San Suu
Kyi to get her freed from House | 1:30:51 | 1:30:57 | |
arrest, and it was through you that
you are able to get her to address | 1:30:57 | 1:31:00 | |
both Houses of Parliament in
Westminster Hall, a unique privilege | 1:31:00 | 1:31:05 | |
for someone who is not officially
head of state. Can I ask you, Mr | 1:31:05 | 1:31:09 | |
Speaker than the Minister of State,
to carry on with your work because | 1:31:09 | 1:31:14 | |
the Rohingya problem is not going to
go away but we do want to go to | 1:31:14 | 1:31:20 | |
Burma and we want to see exactly how
our money is being spent, so can I | 1:31:20 | 1:31:25 | |
implore both of you to carry on and
see if that can be done this year? | 1:31:25 | 1:31:32 | |
Great pleasure to speak on the half
of the Speaker on this matter. I | 1:31:32 | 1:31:46 | |
should thank him for letting me get
a word in. Sorry, this is not a | 1:31:46 | 1:31:54 | |
subject for allegedly. We will keep
in mind what is happening to | 1:31:54 | 1:31:57 | |
Rohingya and other minorities, but
also those of us who have the | 1:31:57 | 1:32:00 | |
interest of Burma and Burmese people
at heart. Can I associate myself | 1:32:00 | 1:32:12 | |
entirely with my honourable friend's
comments and share my horror of what | 1:32:12 | 1:32:14 | |
we have seen in selecting the
Rohingya people. Many of my | 1:32:14 | 1:32:19 | |
constituents have written to me and
rely on committees to shine a light | 1:32:19 | 1:32:25 | |
on these dark situations. Can I urge
the Minister and Secretary of State | 1:32:25 | 1:32:29 | |
to look at examples from the past,
such as our relationship with | 1:32:29 | 1:32:34 | |
Zimbabwe, where we continued to
support people in Zimbabwe while | 1:32:34 | 1:32:44 | |
they had despotic regime. This is a
very unusual case for visas to be | 1:32:44 | 1:32:49 | |
denied in this way. Is he aware of
any other examples of them being | 1:32:49 | 1:32:54 | |
denied to politicians in a similar
way? Thank you very much from the | 1:32:54 | 1:33:01 | |
contribution. I must confess, it
seems unique circumstances | 1:33:01 | 1:33:08 | |
contribution. I must confess, it
seems unique circumstances, it may | 1:33:08 | 1:33:08 | |
not be but I will write to him
regarding the situation of what is | 1:33:08 | 1:33:12 | |
the situation of refusal of these as
of this sort. Can I get assurances | 1:33:12 | 1:33:18 | |
from Her Majesty's government that
not a single penny of taxpayer money | 1:33:18 | 1:33:24 | |
will go to the regime in Burma, who
is increasingly not only a regime | 1:33:24 | 1:33:30 | |
that practices genocide but also is
becoming a rogue state? May I thank | 1:33:30 | 1:33:42 | |
him for his contribution. I think
all of us recognise we do not wish | 1:33:42 | 1:33:46 | |
to do anything that props up a
regime. May I put in a slight | 1:33:46 | 1:33:51 | |
caveat, which is that we need to
keep lines of communication open, | 1:33:51 | 1:33:59 | |
and if it is felt not least by our
ambassador Andrew Patrick on the | 1:33:59 | 1:34:05 | |
ground, if it is felt there are
individuals who need to keep the | 1:34:05 | 1:34:14 | |
lines of communication open, I not
rule it out. Despite the | 1:34:14 | 1:34:21 | |
government's attempts to conceal the
fact, the Burmese military actions | 1:34:21 | 1:34:26 | |
look a lot like ethnic cleansing.
Isn't it time that the international | 1:34:26 | 1:34:31 | |
community started treating it as
ethnic cleansing? Please be assured | 1:34:31 | 1:34:37 | |
that the work does continue.
Difficult to do this through the | 1:34:37 | 1:34:45 | |
usual context, which would be a UN
Security Council resolution because | 1:34:45 | 1:34:48 | |
it would be retold. We had a meeting
in November, and whilst | 1:34:48 | 1:34:55 | |
understandably and rightly much of
the world's focus must be on the | 1:34:55 | 1:34:59 | |
humanitarian catastrophe that is
happening and could get worse on the | 1:34:59 | 1:35:02 | |
Bangladeshi side of the border,
equally there is no an increasing | 1:35:02 | 1:35:06 | |
focus, and I have had many meetings
over the previous weeks and months, | 1:35:06 | 1:35:13 | |
with the focus on diplomatic and
political solution, not least the | 1:35:13 | 1:35:18 | |
issues he points out. I visited the
Rohingya refugee camp last year with | 1:35:18 | 1:35:28 | |
the Commonwealth Parliamentary
Association, and two nurses from | 1:35:28 | 1:35:32 | |
Kettering General Hospital have
returned from the Rohingya camps, | 1:35:32 | 1:35:36 | |
successfully combating the spread of
disease. Can I draw his attention to | 1:35:36 | 1:35:41 | |
the problem on the Bangladeshi side
of the border? Bangladesh has been | 1:35:41 | 1:35:46 | |
incredibly generous in hosting the
Rohingya refugees and going out of | 1:35:46 | 1:35:50 | |
its way to assist them. But the
Bangladeshis are overwhelmed with | 1:35:50 | 1:35:56 | |
applications for visas from aid
workers and the like, and they are | 1:35:56 | 1:36:00 | |
having difficulty processing them in
a timely way, holding up some of the | 1:36:00 | 1:36:06 | |
aid. Can we help them in overcoming
this problem? He is absolutely | 1:36:06 | 1:36:12 | |
right, it is something we have
identified and we are working | 1:36:12 | 1:36:15 | |
together with DFID to get it sped
up, and our own embassy in | 1:36:15 | 1:36:24 | |
Bangladesh has made and will
continue to make representations to | 1:36:24 | 1:36:26 | |
ensure that NGOs and others,
particularly relating to medical | 1:36:26 | 1:36:34 | |
help, at able to get people on the
ground in Bangladesh. Point of | 1:36:34 | 1:36:44 | |
order, Jonathan Ashworth. We all
heard at prime ministers questions, | 1:36:44 | 1:36:48 | |
the Prime Minister rightly speak of
the importance of early diagnosis | 1:36:48 | 1:36:51 | |
when it comes to cancer. Yet, in
today's newspapers we have learned | 1:36:51 | 1:36:57 | |
that some CCGs are offering cash
incentives to GPs not to refer | 1:36:57 | 1:37:02 | |
patients to hospitals including
cancer patients. We believe this is | 1:37:02 | 1:37:10 | |
totally unacceptable. Has the
Secretary of State for health given | 1:37:10 | 1:37:12 | |
any notice that he intends to come
to the House to make a statement to | 1:37:12 | 1:37:16 | |
tell us how extensive this scheme
is, so we can call upon the | 1:37:16 | 1:37:21 | |
Secretary of State to rule out this
an acceptable practice? Lowe, but it | 1:37:21 | 1:37:31 | |
is open to the shadow Leader of the
House today is this matter that the | 1:37:31 | 1:37:34 | |
business question tomorrow, and I
feel sure that having registered his | 1:37:34 | 1:37:41 | |
concerns today, the honourable
gentleman will articulate them in | 1:37:41 | 1:37:47 | |
subsequent days until he elicits a
ministerial response. Chris Bryant. | 1:37:47 | 1:37:54 | |
You have always concerned yourself
with the issue of political | 1:37:54 | 1:37:57 | |
prisoners but I have discovered
there is one in our own country | 1:37:57 | 1:38:01 | |
because the Foreign Secretary
declared this morning on television | 1:38:01 | 1:38:04 | |
that he was desperate to be able to
publish a letter to the Prime | 1:38:04 | 1:38:10 | |
Minister referred to earlier, but
now apparently the Prime Minister | 1:38:10 | 1:38:13 | |
will not let him. So, the poor chap
is languishing unable to fulfil his | 1:38:13 | 1:38:20 | |
stated intention and desires. I just
wonder, because obviously he wants | 1:38:20 | 1:38:23 | |
to keep the House informed, he wants
to be able to tell us what is going | 1:38:23 | 1:38:29 | |
on. I do not know whether he has
written two letters, and only one | 1:38:29 | 1:38:33 | |
has got into the public domain, but
I wondered if that is a way to free | 1:38:33 | 1:38:38 | |
the Foreign Secretary so he is no
longer a political prisoner in this | 1:38:38 | 1:38:42 | |
way? I read what he said in
reference to his correspondence and | 1:38:42 | 1:38:48 | |
the activities of the Foreign
Secretary, but not entirely for the | 1:38:48 | 1:38:52 | |
first time and not
uncharacteristically, I rather fear | 1:38:52 | 1:38:56 | |
that the honourable gentleman might
have invested me with powers I do | 1:38:56 | 1:39:01 | |
not possess. I do not have power
over responsibility for or the | 1:39:01 | 1:39:14 | |
capacity to free the Secretary of
State for following Commonwealth | 1:39:14 | 1:39:19 | |
affairs. The Foreign Office One, he
calls from a sedentary position. | 1:39:19 | 1:39:33 | |
Some people might think it is a good
thing I am not responsible for him, | 1:39:33 | 1:39:37 | |
and other people may think it a bad
thing. But it is a fact that I am | 1:39:37 | 1:39:45 | |
not responsible for him other than
in regard to his responsibilities to | 1:39:45 | 1:39:50 | |
appear here. Shame, says the
honourable gentleman! We must leave | 1:39:50 | 1:40:01 | |
it there for no. We now come to the
ten minute rule motion in the name | 1:40:01 | 1:40:04 | |
of the honourable gentleman, the
Member for Bassetlaw. Ten minute | 1:40:04 | 1:40:09 | |
rule motion, John Mann. | 1:40:09 | 1:40:15 | |
I rise to propose what I would
suggest of the House is a very | 1:40:15 | 1:40:19 | |
important legislative proposal that
in the three weeks subsequent to me | 1:40:19 | 1:40:25 | |
laid this proposed Bill before the
public Bill office, to an incidence | 1:40:25 | 1:40:32 | |
of occurred directly impacting me,
my staff, my family, there are | 1:40:32 | 1:40:39 | |
specific examples apply the powers
we have in this country with | 1:40:39 | 1:40:44 | |
internet companies are too weak and
why this Bill would transform the | 1:40:44 | 1:40:49 | |
situation. In those two weeks I have
received a series of violent threats | 1:40:49 | 1:40:58 | |
on Twitter directed to myself and my
family and stop they are rightly in | 1:40:58 | 1:41:05 | |
action by the police in the
appropriate way. I immediately on | 1:41:05 | 1:41:14 | |
receiving these series of tweets
registered them in the Twitter style | 1:41:14 | 1:41:20 | |
with Twitter, removes them from the
public domain. The police will | 1:41:20 | 1:41:29 | |
require the precise time that these
tweets were sent. Not the tone with | 1:41:29 | 1:41:36 | |
which I can provide them, where they
go onto the Parliamentary system via | 1:41:36 | 1:41:43 | |
e-mail but the precise time. Twitter
refuses to provide these to me. | 1:41:43 | 1:41:51 | |
Second example is in relation to
Facebook. Whereby that is the | 1:41:51 | 1:41:59 | |
gentleman I believe still in prison
who was convicted in prison for a | 1:41:59 | 1:42:03 | |
series of very aggressive internet
attacks on other members of | 1:42:03 | 1:42:10 | |
Parliament and myself. I was
referred to directly in the court | 1:42:10 | 1:42:17 | |
proceedings. A repeat has been last
week put out through Facebook and | 1:42:17 | 1:42:24 | |
immediately then this fake account,
which is in my name with my face | 1:42:24 | 1:42:32 | |
which could best be described as an
century, and of course statements | 1:42:32 | 1:42:38 | |
none of us in here including myself
would never dream of making, and | 1:42:38 | 1:42:43 | |
intend to incite violence against me
which when originally done, at that | 1:42:43 | 1:42:50 | |
impact with extremists, nicking
directorates and specific threats in | 1:42:50 | 1:42:56 | |
my locality. Facebook with that
refused to assist and provide | 1:42:56 | 1:43:07 | |
immediately deleted Facebook
message. And yet again I could | 1:43:07 | 1:43:13 | |
present that to the police because
the individual originated it may | 1:43:13 | 1:43:17 | |
still be serving a custodial
sentence for precisely this form of | 1:43:17 | 1:43:26 | |
activity with this example are part
of the case taken against him. The | 1:43:26 | 1:43:32 | |
purpose of this Bill was, if this
was the broadcast media, television, | 1:43:32 | 1:43:35 | |
if this was radio, but this was
newspapers, and they failed to | 1:43:35 | 1:43:43 | |
cooperate -- if this was newspapers,
then I would be free to take civil | 1:43:43 | 1:43:48 | |
action against them. Government
could take action against them. | 1:43:48 | 1:43:52 | |
Please could take action against
them. To take action the courts | 1:43:52 | 1:43:58 | |
would potentially be complicated but
the fact it is possible would and | 1:43:58 | 1:44:04 | |
does mean that newspapers with
broadcast media, with radio, that | 1:44:04 | 1:44:10 | |
they are cooperative. Both with
individuals and with the police. | 1:44:10 | 1:44:16 | |
When it comes to the internet
company we have no such powers. Our | 1:44:16 | 1:44:23 | |
law comes from the 1896 United
States communications decency act | 1:44:23 | 1:44:34 | |
section 2:3.0. -- 19 96. It says
explicitly community is conferred | 1:44:34 | 1:44:42 | |
upon the operators of internet
services who are not to be deemed | 1:44:42 | 1:44:47 | |
publishers of and therefore not
legally liable for the words of | 1:44:47 | 1:44:50 | |
third parties who use their
services. In our law this comes from | 1:44:50 | 1:44:58 | |
the European Commission and the
European Union, the European | 1:44:58 | 1:45:05 | |
directive 2000-31 of the European
Parliament and Council of the 8th of | 1:45:05 | 1:45:12 | |
June 2000 which was harmonised into
UK law by an electronic commerce EC | 1:45:12 | 1:45:17 | |
directive predilections 2002. It
again gives publishers immunity | 1:45:17 | 1:45:26 | |
explicitly to the internet companies
which is not there in a free and | 1:45:26 | 1:45:32 | |
competitive market for newspapers,
television, radio. In other words a | 1:45:32 | 1:45:38 | |
specific community only solely
exclusively for internet companies. | 1:45:38 | 1:45:44 | |
I am not seeking, and indeed I am
sure Parliament would not seek, to | 1:45:44 | 1:45:54 | |
interfere with the rights of free
speech and the rights of a free | 1:45:54 | 1:45:58 | |
internet. But the Democratic
internet in exactly the same way we | 1:45:58 | 1:46:02 | |
have a democratic media and free
press has to have the ability that | 1:46:02 | 1:46:10 | |
if there are criminal acts being
carried out that directly impact on | 1:46:10 | 1:46:16 | |
us, and these two examples do
potentially in relation to me, my | 1:46:16 | 1:46:20 | |
staff, my family. And indeed one has
had a criminal prosecution and | 1:46:20 | 1:46:26 | |
imprisonment. We ought to have the
right to use that format. What would | 1:46:26 | 1:46:32 | |
happen if we did? Internet companies
would cooperate immediately. It is | 1:46:32 | 1:46:39 | |
absurd that the police in this
country cannot force Twitter or | 1:46:39 | 1:46:44 | |
Facebook or Google or any of the
others to provide evidence required | 1:46:44 | 1:46:50 | |
for criminal prosecutions, criminal
prosecutions. It is done on | 1:46:50 | 1:46:56 | |
goodwill. And successive governments
have attempted, are attempting, to | 1:46:56 | 1:47:04 | |
get good codes of conduct, the
internet companies have their | 1:47:04 | 1:47:07 | |
conditions of service where they say
what they will do. Well, let me give | 1:47:07 | 1:47:11 | |
an example where I would consider
taking action. It would be precisely | 1:47:11 | 1:47:17 | |
where those terms and conditions
have been broken and the internet | 1:47:17 | 1:47:21 | |
company has failed to act
appropriately. That is precisely an | 1:47:21 | 1:47:26 | |
example where their own terms and
conditions are being broken but they | 1:47:26 | 1:47:29 | |
are failing to act. It cannot be
right that our place with Twitter | 1:47:29 | 1:47:35 | |
for example can wait very many weeks
and are not guaranteed evidence they | 1:47:35 | 1:47:42 | |
require, it could be to do with
terrorism, other violent threats, | 1:47:42 | 1:47:48 | |
but criminality cannot get that.
This simple removal from exemption, | 1:47:48 | 1:47:55 | |
equalising the markets with the
television companies, with radio, | 1:47:55 | 1:48:02 | |
the free newspapers, would create an
equal playing field in the media | 1:48:02 | 1:48:10 | |
market and would get rid of some of
the absurdities which mean that the | 1:48:10 | 1:48:14 | |
same thing can be impacted on, say,
media, but run simultaneously with | 1:48:14 | 1:48:23 | |
that those powers with the internet.
There are countless examples. The | 1:48:23 | 1:48:28 | |
House of Lords, there was a very
good debate initiated by Baroness | 1:48:28 | 1:48:32 | |
Kidron, I haven't got the time to go
through that and I recommend that to | 1:48:32 | 1:48:40 | |
the House, but she went through
precisely a social media companies | 1:48:40 | 1:48:47 | |
are commissioning, editing and
curating content for broadcasting | 1:48:47 | 1:48:49 | |
and our publishing. It affects our
societal values. For example the | 1:48:49 | 1:48:57 | |
spreading of fake news. We have seen
it on the internet with the | 1:48:57 | 1:49:02 | |
potential outbreak of measles from
big news about inoculations, nothing | 1:49:02 | 1:49:07 | |
government could do in relation to
that if the internet company fails | 1:49:07 | 1:49:14 | |
to act, public health in this
country could be a threat. Should | 1:49:14 | 1:49:17 | |
government choose to do that? That
is a different set of questions. | 1:49:17 | 1:49:21 | |
Different set of decisions. But
government cannot do that because | 1:49:21 | 1:49:25 | |
government doesn't have the power to
do that. We are seeing mounting | 1:49:25 | 1:49:29 | |
pressure. Germany has adopted a
fairly modest system in terms of the | 1:49:29 | 1:49:37 | |
potential to applying for a failure
to remove content within 24 hours. | 1:49:37 | 1:49:41 | |
Australia has built-in and ease
safety Commissioner. This Bill | 1:49:41 | 1:49:46 | |
suggests a similar thing could
happen in this country. But at its | 1:49:46 | 1:49:52 | |
core we need to treat the internet
companies in exactly the same way as | 1:49:52 | 1:49:59 | |
other media, whereby a free media
can be taken to court if they are | 1:49:59 | 1:50:04 | |
failing to cooperate on criminality.
What is good enough for TV, radio | 1:50:04 | 1:50:10 | |
and newspapers is good enough for
social media and the internet. I | 1:50:10 | 1:50:14 | |
recommend this proposed Bill to the
House, Mr Deputy Speaker. As many of | 1:50:14 | 1:50:23 | |
the opinion say aye. I come to who
will prepare to bring in your Bill? | 1:50:23 | 1:50:34 | |
Ruth Snead, Lucy Birdsall, Lillian
Greenwood, Anna Turley, Nicky | 1:50:34 | 1:50:39 | |
Morgan, Andrew Percy, Liz Seibel
Roberts, Lisa Cameron, and myself. | 1:50:39 | 1:50:47 | |
Excellent. John Mann.
LAUGHTER | 1:50:47 | 1:50:57 | |
Very important! | 1:50:57 | 1:51:08 | |
Social media service providers...
Second reading what they? Friday, | 1:51:19 | 1:51:26 | |
April 27. On a Friday? Excellent.
Keep going, while you can. | 1:51:26 | 1:51:44 | |
The working group was convened by
the Prime Minister last November, | 1:52:34 | 1:52:39 | |
supported by all party leaders. The
question is as order paper. The ayes | 1:52:39 | 1:52:56 | |
have it. When I come to the motion
on the Independent complaints and | 1:52:56 | 1:53:03 | |
grievance policy, I have selected it
in the name of Kevin Byron. I now | 1:53:03 | 1:53:11 | |
call the Leader of the House to move
the motion. Thank you, a bit of | 1:53:11 | 1:53:20 | |
Groundhog Day here. I beg to move
the motion standing on the order | 1:53:20 | 1:53:23 | |
paper in my name and those of my
working group colleagues. The | 1:53:23 | 1:53:27 | |
working group was convened by the
Prime Minister last November | 1:53:27 | 1:53:30 | |
supported by all party leaders. To
address serious allegations of abuse | 1:53:30 | 1:53:37 | |
and harassment in Parliament. I
announce the publication of the | 1:53:37 | 1:53:40 | |
group's report before February
recess, and I hope members have | 1:53:40 | 1:53:50 | |
considered the more detail. We're
all at the bid is no place for | 1:53:50 | 1:53:54 | |
harassment, abuse and misconduct in
Parliament. We need to ensure there | 1:53:54 | 1:53:59 | |
are robust procedures in place so
everyone is able to work with the | 1:53:59 | 1:54:03 | |
dignity and protection that they
deserve. I believe the working group | 1:54:03 | 1:54:09 | |
proposals do that. During the course
of its work, the group took | 1:54:09 | 1:54:13 | |
extensive evidence in person and
writing from a wide variety of | 1:54:13 | 1:54:19 | |
stakeholders including parliamentary
officials, staff of MPs and peers, | 1:54:19 | 1:54:23 | |
trade unions, academics, authorities
and sexual violence and legal | 1:54:23 | 1:54:27 | |
professionals. The group also
conducted a survey open to a wide | 1:54:27 | 1:54:31 | |
range of people including a number
of pass-holders who had not been | 1:54:31 | 1:54:37 | |
asked for the experience of bullying
and harassment. Many people have | 1:54:37 | 1:54:42 | |
devoted a considerable amount of
time to this work, and after more | 1:54:42 | 1:54:45 | |
than 100 hours of discussion,
consultation and consideration, I | 1:54:45 | 1:54:52 | |
believe we have proposals for the
House to consider today that will | 1:54:52 | 1:54:55 | |
fundamentally change the working
culture in Parliament for the | 1:54:55 | 1:54:58 | |
better. I would like to turn to
these proposals, and briefly set | 1:54:58 | 1:55:04 | |
them out for the House. They are as
follows. Firstly, Parliament will | 1:55:04 | 1:55:10 | |
agree a shared behaviour code, which
will apply to everyone on the estate | 1:55:10 | 1:55:14 | |
or engaged in parliamentary business
regardless of location, and will | 1:55:14 | 1:55:20 | |
underpin the new policy. It will
make clear the expectations for the | 1:55:20 | 1:55:25 | |
behaviour of everyone in the
parliamentary community and will be | 1:55:25 | 1:55:28 | |
consulted on and on that basis.
Secondly, the new complaints and | 1:55:28 | 1:55:32 | |
grievance procedure will be
independent from political parties. | 1:55:32 | 1:55:38 | |
Thirdly, it was acknowledged that
sexual harassment and violence are | 1:55:38 | 1:55:42 | |
different from other forms of
inappropriate behaviour, such as | 1:55:42 | 1:55:47 | |
bullying and intimidation.
Therefore, separate procedures will | 1:55:47 | 1:55:49 | |
be agreed for those looking to raise
a complaint regarding sexual | 1:55:49 | 1:55:53 | |
harassment to those with a complaint
of bullying. This is an important | 1:55:53 | 1:55:59 | |
distinction, and while everyone has
acknowledged the significance of | 1:55:59 | 1:56:03 | |
complaints of sexual harassment,
evidence from staff made clear that | 1:56:03 | 1:56:06 | |
instances of intimidation and
bullying are more prevalent. So, MPs | 1:56:06 | 1:56:17 | |
staff need HR advice, which has been
lacking, and this will go to a long | 1:56:17 | 1:56:21 | |
-- go a long way of resolving
workplace grievances. Importantly, | 1:56:21 | 1:56:27 | |
the new system will be based on the
principles of equality, it will be | 1:56:27 | 1:56:32 | |
confidential and fair to all
parties, it will be in line with the | 1:56:32 | 1:56:36 | |
laws of natural justice, and it will
command the confidence of those who | 1:56:36 | 1:56:41 | |
will use it. The working group took
advice at an early stage that rather | 1:56:41 | 1:56:47 | |
than reinvent the wheel, we should
work with and build on the many | 1:56:47 | 1:56:52 | |
sound processes and systems already
in place here. Today we are bringing | 1:56:52 | 1:56:58 | |
forward a motion that will enable
the House commission to authorise | 1:56:58 | 1:57:03 | |
House officials to take forward the
recommendations of the group and | 1:57:03 | 1:57:06 | |
implement proposals in full. This is
a big step towards creating a more | 1:57:06 | 1:57:14 | |
professional environment and the
Parliament among the best in the | 1:57:14 | 1:57:16 | |
world in treating people with
dignity and respect at work. I'm | 1:57:16 | 1:57:24 | |
grateful to her forgiving way and
want to commend her for her work on | 1:57:24 | 1:57:28 | |
this report. She will agree that
Parliament should be a for Best | 1:57:28 | 1:57:32 | |
practice rather than playing catch
up, so we need to make sure the | 1:57:32 | 1:57:39 | |
procedures relate to everyone,
including crucially extending to | 1:57:39 | 1:57:42 | |
constituency officers, and visitors
to offices as soon as possible. Can | 1:57:42 | 1:57:48 | |
she reassure us that this is a real
priority for her going forward? I | 1:57:48 | 1:57:55 | |
would like to pay tribute to the
honourable lady who is an assiduous | 1:57:55 | 1:57:59 | |
contributor to the work of the
working group, and I thank sincerely | 1:57:59 | 1:58:03 | |
for her dedication. We can recall
these happy hours debating that | 1:58:03 | 1:58:09 | |
point, and we concluded in the end
that this is a priority to make sure | 1:58:09 | 1:58:15 | |
the behaviour code will extend
protection to all those coming into | 1:58:15 | 1:58:24 | |
Parliament, but in the immediate
future we should focus on bedding in | 1:58:24 | 1:58:29 | |
a new complaints procedure dealing
with the Palace of Westminster and | 1:58:29 | 1:58:33 | |
our work in parliamentary duties,
and that as soon as possible, once | 1:58:33 | 1:58:36 | |
it is bedded down through a review
six months after its operation of | 1:58:36 | 1:58:41 | |
how we should deal with others who
come into contact with MPs, where | 1:58:41 | 1:58:45 | |
there is the tricky grey area about,
where is your public life and we | 1:58:45 | 1:58:49 | |
lose your private life? I hope she
is reassured once again by | 1:58:49 | 1:58:53 | |
committing that we must look at
that, she is exactly right. I | 1:58:53 | 1:59:00 | |
appreciate her giving way. Can I
ask, going into the definitions of | 1:59:00 | 1:59:06 | |
bullying, why are the older
versions... The most recent version | 1:59:06 | 1:59:13 | |
takes away the issue of | 1:59:13 | 1:59:17 | |
intentionality, because often
perpetrators hide behind that. What | 1:59:17 | 1:59:19 | |
I can say is that the work on the
detailed procedures including | 1:59:19 | 1:59:26 | |
definitions will be finalised once
the authorities get under way to put | 1:59:26 | 1:59:33 | |
the proposals in place, and if she
wants to propose a different | 1:59:33 | 1:59:36 | |
definition, I am very pleased to
look at it and will take into | 1:59:36 | 1:59:41 | |
account all views in the area. So, I
am committed to ensuring that work | 1:59:41 | 1:59:48 | |
proceeds apace over the next few
months, and I am pleased to report | 1:59:48 | 1:59:52 | |
the House authorities have already
begun preliminary work on several | 1:59:52 | 1:59:57 | |
work streams needed to implement
these policies. Members will also | 1:59:57 | 2:00:01 | |
want to know that the following four
interim steps have already been | 2:00:01 | 2:00:05 | |
taken to improve services available,
and I have mentioned these | 2:00:05 | 2:00:08 | |
previously because we wanted to
ensure we had immediate steps | 2:00:08 | 2:00:13 | |
following the serious allegations
that we all heard about last | 2:00:13 | 2:00:18 | |
November, so firstly, enhanced
support arrangements have been | 2:00:18 | 2:00:21 | |
provided through the extension of
the employee assistance programme | 2:00:21 | 2:00:24 | |
helpline run by health are sure to.
Secondly, face-to-face counselling | 2:00:24 | 2:00:29 | |
sessions can be offered with
appropriate. Thirdly, an interim | 2:00:29 | 2:00:34 | |
service providing HR advice for
member staff was launched in | 2:00:34 | 2:00:38 | |
January, and fourth, political
parties have all updated the | 2:00:38 | 2:00:41 | |
behaviour codes and published them
on the parliamentary intranet. This | 2:00:41 | 2:00:47 | |
demonstrates we have already taken
urgent action, but the new | 2:00:47 | 2:00:50 | |
procedures will go much further. For
the benefit of members not present | 2:00:50 | 2:00:58 | |
at my last statement, I will turn
briefly to the process of making a | 2:00:58 | 2:01:02 | |
complaint or raising grievance
against a member of the House. As | 2:01:02 | 2:01:06 | |
colleagues will appreciate, the
process for raising complaints | 2:01:06 | 2:01:09 | |
against other members of the
parliamentary community such as | 2:01:09 | 2:01:14 | |
peers, members and peers staff, and
contractors, will each differ | 2:01:14 | 2:01:18 | |
according to the role. All
procedures are designed for the | 2:01:18 | 2:01:22 | |
protection of staff and
parliamentarians alike, and have | 2:01:22 | 2:01:25 | |
their own is at the heart. So, it is
intended that the House authorities | 2:01:25 | 2:01:32 | |
will procure two independent
services. 12 consider allegations of | 2:01:32 | 2:01:40 | |
violence, and 12 consider workplace
bullying. Where a resolution is not | 2:01:40 | 2:01:50 | |
possible and a complaint is upheld,
it will be referred to the | 2:01:50 | 2:01:54 | |
parliamentary commission. The role
of the commission will be expanded | 2:01:54 | 2:02:05 | |
and reformed, she will be able to
impose a new range of sanctions | 2:02:05 | 2:02:09 | |
which may include a written apology,
mandatory training or future | 2:02:09 | 2:02:14 | |
behaviour agreements. The
commissioner will be able to review | 2:02:14 | 2:02:17 | |
any finding by the independent
investigator, and where she does so, | 2:02:17 | 2:02:20 | |
she will ensure that have
investigations are also strictly | 2:02:20 | 2:02:25 | |
confidential, that both the
complainant and alleged perpetrator | 2:02:25 | 2:02:27 | |
have access to all evidence, and
crucially, each has a right to | 2:02:27 | 2:02:33 | |
representation or to represent
themselves. These measures will | 2:02:33 | 2:02:37 | |
ensure fairness. In the most serious
of cases, the Commissioner will | 2:02:37 | 2:02:42 | |
refer her findings to the committee
on standards. The committee can | 2:02:42 | 2:02:46 | |
recommend to the House that an
individual is suspended and the | 2:02:46 | 2:02:49 | |
House will vote on the
recommendation. It is to this route | 2:02:49 | 2:02:54 | |
that the existing procedures under
the recall of MPs after 2015 could | 2:02:54 | 2:02:59 | |
be invoked. The trigger for a recall
remains the same as it is now, and | 2:02:59 | 2:03:02 | |
it is no plan for changes to primary
legislation. The working group | 2:03:02 | 2:03:09 | |
recognised the fact that those who
work in this place are often in the | 2:03:09 | 2:03:13 | |
media spotlight and that vexatious
and malicious complaints at a risk. | 2:03:13 | 2:03:17 | |
The new procedures will therefore
ensure checks and balances are in | 2:03:17 | 2:03:21 | |
place to guard against complaints,
while also making sure complainants | 2:03:21 | 2:03:24 | |
can come forward in a safe and
confidential manner. I will turn | 2:03:24 | 2:03:32 | |
into more detail in individual work
streams to implement these streams. | 2:03:32 | 2:03:38 | |
We expect six major work streams to
be established, and I would like to | 2:03:38 | 2:03:41 | |
address these individually. It is
the intention that most of these | 2:03:41 | 2:03:45 | |
work streams will be completed in
three months' time more or less. | 2:03:45 | 2:03:49 | |
Firstly, and importantly, a new
behaviour code for parliament will | 2:03:49 | 2:03:54 | |
be developed. This was a key
recommendation of the working group | 2:03:54 | 2:03:58 | |
report. It will ensure that we're
all aware of and able to promote the | 2:03:58 | 2:04:03 | |
high standards expected in the
parliamentary community. It will | 2:04:03 | 2:04:06 | |
cover all those working in
Westminster and constituency offices | 2:04:06 | 2:04:10 | |
and all pass-holders. With the
approval of the House we will | 2:04:10 | 2:04:16 | |
consult on the new behaviour code.
It is important that those who would | 2:04:16 | 2:04:19 | |
be subject to the code will have the
opportunity to contribute to its | 2:04:19 | 2:04:24 | |
development. This code must be
something that underpins us all, it | 2:04:24 | 2:04:31 | |
will be able to investigate and
resolve allegations of bullying, | 2:04:31 | 2:04:36 | |
harassment and sexual harassment. It
will also be the cornerstone of | 2:04:36 | 2:04:40 | |
cultural change... It is our
intention the behaviour code will be | 2:04:40 | 2:04:48 | |
brought forward within three months.
Secondly, there will be an | 2:04:48 | 2:04:54 | |
implementation work stream around
the bullying and harassment | 2:04:54 | 2:04:56 | |
procedure. This will develop
detailed policies and procedures, | 2:04:56 | 2:05:02 | |
and commission a new reporting
helpline and workplace dispute | 2:05:02 | 2:05:05 | |
resolution service. The new helpline
will signpost new available | 2:05:05 | 2:05:13 | |
services, and they will investigate
independently allegations of | 2:05:13 | 2:05:17 | |
bullying and intimidation. Dedicated
emotional and practical support for | 2:05:17 | 2:05:20 | |
all those involved in a complaint
will be an important aspect of the | 2:05:20 | 2:05:25 | |
new services. Thirdly, there will be
a separate work stream... Could I | 2:05:25 | 2:05:31 | |
just finished this point then I will
give way? Thirdly there will be a | 2:05:31 | 2:05:34 | |
work stream commissioning a new
independent specialist service | 2:05:34 | 2:05:39 | |
around sexual harassment and
violence. A single point of ongoing | 2:05:39 | 2:05:43 | |
support will be provided for
complainants by an independent | 2:05:43 | 2:05:47 | |
sexual violence adviser.
Investigations of misconduct will be | 2:05:47 | 2:05:53 | |
able to be conducted by an
independent investigator with a | 2:05:53 | 2:05:58 | |
specialist qualification in
understanding sexual harassment. I | 2:05:58 | 2:06:00 | |
will give way. Thank you for being
generous with your time. Could I | 2:06:00 | 2:06:06 | |
just caution the media once again
about the issue of mediation due to | 2:06:06 | 2:06:12 | |
the inequalities of power regarding
billing and sexual harassment, -- | 2:06:12 | 2:06:17 | |
bullying. We want to ensure there
are clear processes that ensure | 2:06:17 | 2:06:22 | |
equality of power, and often
mediation has the reverse effect. I | 2:06:22 | 2:06:27 | |
hope I can reassure her that the
issues she raises really was at the | 2:06:27 | 2:06:32 | |
core of all of the evidence we took
and all of the discussions we had | 2:06:32 | 2:06:36 | |
done the determination of the
working group to address the issue | 2:06:36 | 2:06:42 | |
of imbalance of power, to make sure
at the heart of the whole procedure | 2:06:42 | 2:06:48 | |
is the interest of the complainant,
so it is very much complainant lead, | 2:06:48 | 2:06:52 | |
to ensure people do feel safe and
able to come forward in a safe space | 2:06:52 | 2:06:59 | |
without the fear of being
intimidated further. So, I think I | 2:06:59 | 2:07:03 | |
can reassure her on that point, but
I am very happy to speak to her | 2:07:03 | 2:07:08 | |
separately about that, if she wants
further the assurance. Fourthly, new | 2:07:08 | 2:07:14 | |
training is already available to
help people understand more clearly | 2:07:14 | 2:07:18 | |
what types of behaviour might be
considered bullying or harassment | 2:07:18 | 2:07:21 | |
and the impact it can have on
individuals. This is the first step | 2:07:21 | 2:07:27 | |
towards implementing the working
group's recommendation that the new | 2:07:27 | 2:07:31 | |
independent grievance and complaints
policy needs to be supported by a | 2:07:31 | 2:07:34 | |
comprehensive training programme.
Training will be a significant work | 2:07:34 | 2:07:40 | |
stream and will include learning
opportunities for members and their | 2:07:40 | 2:07:44 | |
officers. A new induction programme
has also been introduced, with the | 2:07:44 | 2:07:51 | |
first session this week in response
to the working group's request. | 2:07:51 | 2:07:57 | |
Other individual areas of work,
including the fifth work stream, are | 2:07:57 | 2:08:01 | |
already underway, including work to
prepare for a third-party supplier | 2:08:01 | 2:08:09 | |
of HR advice. This will be supported
by a new member staff bit, and the | 2:08:09 | 2:08:14 | |
first draft has already been
compiled by IPSC and the House | 2:08:14 | 2:08:17 | |
authorities. Finally, the working
group has been clear back to | 2:08:17 | 2:08:23 | |
implement a number of the proposals,
the sixth work stream will develop | 2:08:23 | 2:08:26 | |
the Met and processes of the
parliamentary -- the re-met and | 2:08:26 | 2:08:32 | |
processes of the parliamentary
processes in each House. This means | 2:08:32 | 2:08:40 | |
liaising with each other as
necessary. Changes will also be | 2:08:40 | 2:08:43 | |
likely to be needed at the end of
these processes to the existing | 2:08:43 | 2:08:48 | |
parliamentary codes, not least to...
I welcome the clarity given by the | 2:08:48 | 2:08:56 | |
order paper, and I can assure
members that having recently met | 2:08:56 | 2:09:04 | |
with the new commissioner of the
standards myself and Shedlock -- | 2:09:04 | 2:09:08 | |
scheduled a meeting with the
standards committee, I can give the | 2:09:08 | 2:09:11 | |
assurance that consultation will
continue and will form a key part of | 2:09:11 | 2:09:15 | |
the next age of our work. It is
important that the development of | 2:09:15 | 2:09:23 | |
these work streams is underpinned by
fairness, confidentiality and add a | 2:09:23 | 2:09:27 | |
key ignition of the unique
environment in which these | 2:09:27 | 2:09:30 | |
procedures are being implemented.
The new arrangements must be | 2:09:30 | 2:09:34 | |
monitored and reviewed and embedded
as part of a wider change in | 2:09:34 | 2:09:39 | |
culture. I would like to pay tribute
in this regard to the political | 2:09:39 | 2:09:46 | |
affairs committee. Unfortunately the
letter was omitted from the list of | 2:09:46 | 2:09:55 | |
written submissions, for which I
apologise. One of the suggestions | 2:09:55 | 2:09:58 | |
made in the submission was the
importance of the review and | 2:09:58 | 2:10:03 | |
scrutiny of the working group's
proposals. It is our attention -- | 2:10:03 | 2:10:06 | |
intention that once the proposals
have been implemented, a Crosshouse | 2:10:06 | 2:10:11 | |
body order group will assess the
operation of the new processes. In | 2:10:11 | 2:10:16 | |
the meantime a steering group whose
membership will be based on the | 2:10:16 | 2:10:22 | |
composition of the working group
will oversee the implementation | 2:10:22 | 2:10:24 | |
period. | 2:10:24 | 2:10:31 | |
I am
period. | 2:10:31 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the measures
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the measures the
period. | 2:10:32 | 2:10:32 | |
I am confident the measures the
working group has recommended will | 2:10:32 | 2:10:34 | |
provide the basis with the
significant and sustainable changes | 2:10:34 | 2:10:36 | |
to which we all aspire. A parliament
that provides dignity and work for | 2:10:36 | 2:10:42 | |
all. We need to make sure that our
Parliament is among the best in the | 2:10:42 | 2:10:48 | |
world, demonstrating our commitment
to equality, justice and fairness. I | 2:10:48 | 2:10:56 | |
hope the House will interest the
working group's recommendations | 2:10:56 | 2:10:58 | |
today. The question is as on the
order paper. Then I think the Leader | 2:10:58 | 2:11:10 | |
of the House but opening the debate,
it is now the fourth time this | 2:11:10 | 2:11:14 | |
matter has been before the House and
it is good we can continue to debate | 2:11:14 | 2:11:18 | |
this important topic. We have had
three statements and know this | 2:11:18 | 2:11:23 | |
motion. If we cast our minds back it
was to the first meeting the Prime | 2:11:23 | 2:11:27 | |
Minister and leaders of other
representatives of the party, that | 2:11:27 | 2:11:31 | |
was on Monday the 6th of November 20
17. The report was published on the | 2:11:31 | 2:11:37 | |
8th of February 20 18. I certainly
have passed it on to every member of | 2:11:37 | 2:11:43 | |
the opposition. I want to place on
record my thanks to all the staff | 2:11:43 | 2:11:48 | |
involved putting together the report
and all colleagues involved in the | 2:11:48 | 2:11:56 | |
working group. All this motion does
is set out the works at the House | 2:11:56 | 2:11:59 | |
authorities have to undertake. There
needs to be time at how to put the | 2:11:59 | 2:12:03 | |
processes and procedures in place
and of course the working group | 2:12:03 | 2:12:08 | |
can't do that. To pick up the point
of my friend the honourable member | 2:12:08 | 2:12:12 | |
for York Central who worked on this
sector previously, what happened to | 2:12:12 | 2:12:22 | |
the full-time permanent person who
feeds into the some of the leader | 2:12:22 | 2:12:25 | |
has outlined in detail the work that
needs to be done so I will confine | 2:12:25 | 2:12:35 | |
myself to very two reef areas. As to
training, and any programme, I don't | 2:12:35 | 2:12:44 | |
consider to be, it is not the
judgment of people's views but just | 2:12:44 | 2:12:51 | |
to ensure everyone is in the same
place, and it will be useful for all | 2:12:51 | 2:12:56 | |
members to update with the latest
and behaviour in a working place. I | 2:12:56 | 2:13:05 | |
am grateful. Can we not ensure that
training is mandatory, face-to-face | 2:13:05 | 2:13:14 | |
and also we don't have to wait until
the next Parliament but it is | 2:13:14 | 2:13:18 | |
brought in within this year. I think
the honourable friend for her | 2:13:18 | 2:13:24 | |
comments and I've would want to see
this from any training programme. I | 2:13:24 | 2:13:29 | |
think we expect something to be put
in place after three months when the | 2:13:29 | 2:13:33 | |
permanent person has looked at all
the details of what they have to do. | 2:13:33 | 2:13:40 | |
The Leader of the House knows that a
few people have been asked and were | 2:13:40 | 2:13:47 | |
allowed to join the group, but in my
view I think the steering group | 2:13:47 | 2:13:52 | |
should be a bit more representative
and perhaps include other groups and | 2:13:52 | 2:13:56 | |
unions. I would support the
inclusion of the House trade union | 2:13:56 | 2:14:02 | |
side to widen the representation
slightly but maybe the numbers on | 2:14:02 | 2:14:06 | |
the steering group need to be
reduced. But most importantly to | 2:14:06 | 2:14:10 | |
wear number of new initiatives set
up and when those events first hit | 2:14:10 | 2:14:16 | |
us in November Mr Speaker acted very
swiftly and extended the helpline to | 2:14:16 | 2:14:24 | |
24 hours and seven days a week from
health assured and it would be | 2:14:24 | 2:14:29 | |
useful to have those figures and how
that is used, perhaps at the next | 2:14:29 | 2:14:33 | |
commission meeting because it would
be six months it would have been | 2:14:33 | 2:14:36 | |
extended to every single person
working on the estate. I don't | 2:14:36 | 2:14:43 | |
underestimate the amount of work
that these to be done by the House | 2:14:43 | 2:14:46 | |
authorities and while it is useful
to get updates from time to time | 2:14:46 | 2:14:49 | |
they do need to be left to get on
with the work. Consulting with the | 2:14:49 | 2:14:57 | |
member programmes Valley and his
Committee and Essex and his | 2:14:57 | 2:15:04 | |
Committee and all members of the
other have something to offer. It is | 2:15:04 | 2:15:08 | |
only when processors are in place
and usable we know if they are | 2:15:08 | 2:15:12 | |
robust and command the sport of
those who seek to use them. The | 2:15:12 | 2:15:17 | |
opposition support the motion is
tabled and amended and look forward | 2:15:17 | 2:15:21 | |
to be updated. We thank the staff
are taking on this task so we have a | 2:15:21 | 2:15:27 | |
truly modern Parliament where
everyone knows the boundaries of | 2:15:27 | 2:15:30 | |
acceptable behaviour in a safe and
secure workplace. | 2:15:30 | 2:15:43 | |
It is just a few months since
Parliament faced a wave of | 2:15:43 | 2:15:48 | |
allegations and bullying and sexual
harassment, and atmosphere in richer | 2:15:48 | 2:15:53 | |
times it was hard to distinguish,
serious cases from the proliferation | 2:15:53 | 2:15:57 | |
accusations and rumours. It exposed
a lack of credible and transparent | 2:15:57 | 2:16:06 | |
and robust system for existing
complaints and periods is about | 2:16:06 | 2:16:11 | |
bullying and sexual harassment. It
led to the establishment of the | 2:16:11 | 2:16:14 | |
working group and their report which
I fully support and it is carefully | 2:16:14 | 2:16:19 | |
drafted and reflect a great deal of
thought and discussion. The working | 2:16:19 | 2:16:23 | |
group has proposed to burst the
adoption of a new shared behaviour | 2:16:23 | 2:16:27 | |
code for all who work in Parliament
and its members. Secondly the | 2:16:27 | 2:16:31 | |
introduction of a new independent
complaints and grievance policy to | 2:16:31 | 2:16:38 | |
reflect this. There's not
unsurprisingly concentrates on | 2:16:38 | 2:16:41 | |
creating new rules and the
procedures for investigating | 2:16:41 | 2:16:45 | |
incidents and complaints by police
to try to address the present | 2:16:45 | 2:16:49 | |
hodgepodge arrangements from which
different categories of people and | 2:16:49 | 2:16:53 | |
the glaring gaps of this system of
how we employ and care for our | 2:16:53 | 2:16:59 | |
staff. The working group has rightly
spent a lot of time discussing and | 2:16:59 | 2:17:06 | |
defining what constitutes the bad
behaviours that must be called out. | 2:17:06 | 2:17:10 | |
But there is also a need to address
how Parliament arrived at this | 2:17:10 | 2:17:15 | |
situation. How a culture of
tolerance towards bullying and | 2:17:15 | 2:17:19 | |
sexual harassment became embedded
and let substantially unchallenged | 2:17:19 | 2:17:23 | |
until now. Very few people who come
into political life at whatever | 2:17:23 | 2:17:28 | |
level and would have the capacity in
this building to work in Parliament, | 2:17:28 | 2:17:34 | |
very few are bad people and most are
appalled about the culture that has | 2:17:34 | 2:17:40 | |
been exposed. So how have we let
this happen close like after all, | 2:17:40 | 2:17:48 | |
MPs are already subject to the House
of Commons code of conduct will stop | 2:17:48 | 2:17:52 | |
as employers we are already covered
by employment law and there is the | 2:17:52 | 2:17:56 | |
respect policy there to protect
staff of the House. It is clear | 2:17:56 | 2:18:00 | |
however that there needs to be a
wider and continuing discussion | 2:18:00 | 2:18:04 | |
about the positive attitudes and
kinds of behaviour that we want to | 2:18:04 | 2:18:09 | |
promote in Parliament and in public
life and what the values and | 2:18:09 | 2:18:15 | |
principles are upon which those
positive attitudes and behaviours | 2:18:15 | 2:18:17 | |
should be based. The remit of the
public administration Constitutional | 2:18:17 | 2:18:24 | |
affairs Committee which I chair
includes oversight of the Committee | 2:18:24 | 2:18:30 | |
and public web, ministerial code,
civil service code and special | 2:18:30 | 2:18:32 | |
advisers code and the workers
concerned with leadership and | 2:18:32 | 2:18:38 | |
governance in the civil service and
public bodies so we have done a lot | 2:18:38 | 2:18:42 | |
of work on this area. In December
they submitted evidence to the | 2:18:42 | 2:18:47 | |
working group showing drawing on
work it has carried out in other | 2:18:47 | 2:18:52 | |
areas. This was in the form of the
letter to the Leader of the House | 2:18:52 | 2:18:57 | |
which might right honourable friend
very kindly acknowledged was not | 2:18:57 | 2:19:00 | |
included amongst the record of
written submissions received by the | 2:19:00 | 2:19:03 | |
group and I know it was
substantially discussed and I'm | 2:19:03 | 2:19:06 | |
grateful to the spokesman for the
opposition for drawing attention to | 2:19:06 | 2:19:12 | |
it. Some of the reasons for our
failures are practical and | 2:19:12 | 2:19:18 | |
procedural. The working group has
made great strides to address these. | 2:19:18 | 2:19:22 | |
However it is also clear that there
is confusion among MPs and others | 2:19:22 | 2:19:29 | |
about the behaviour should be
subject to public scrutiny. And what | 2:19:29 | 2:19:32 | |
should be regarded as entirely
private. As we argued in our | 2:19:32 | 2:19:37 | |
submission to the Parliamentary
commission standards review of the | 2:19:37 | 2:19:42 | |
House of Commons code of conduct
last year this commission is not | 2:19:42 | 2:19:46 | |
resolved by our own current Commons
code. Far from it. As PACAC set out, | 2:19:46 | 2:19:52 | |
in fact, I was there is a
fundamental ambiguity as to whether | 2:19:52 | 2:20:01 | |
our Commons code of conduct is
intended to function as a set of | 2:20:01 | 2:20:06 | |
principles which govern the whole of
members behaviour which would | 2:20:06 | 2:20:09 | |
naturally extend to a degree into
private sphere of MPs conduct or | 2:20:09 | 2:20:14 | |
whether it is intended simply as a
set of regulations which are mostly | 2:20:14 | 2:20:21 | |
about financial disclosures relating
only to an MP's public role. And in | 2:20:21 | 2:20:26 | |
fact the 2015 code states that it
does not seek to regulate what | 2:20:26 | 2:20:30 | |
members do in their private and
personal lives and yet it is clear | 2:20:30 | 2:20:35 | |
from these recent controversies that
it is not always possible to keep | 2:20:35 | 2:20:37 | |
the two are separate as many of us
would like. The risk is now that | 2:20:37 | 2:20:44 | |
this new behaviour code will be once
again mainly concerned with rules | 2:20:44 | 2:20:50 | |
and regulations and new procedures
for enforcement and that this is | 2:20:50 | 2:20:55 | |
just patched onto the present system
which has manifestly failed in at | 2:20:55 | 2:21:00 | |
least one of its main objectives,
which is to promote public | 2:21:00 | 2:21:02 | |
confidence in the standards we
observe in Parliament we should not | 2:21:02 | 2:21:06 | |
be surprised if problems continue to
rise. The working group is right to | 2:21:06 | 2:21:13 | |
promote a system of training to
support the new behaviour code. I | 2:21:13 | 2:21:18 | |
think there is going to be some
problems persuading some of our | 2:21:18 | 2:21:21 | |
colleagues that they should be
subject to such training and I will | 2:21:21 | 2:21:23 | |
come to that point in a moment. It
is easy to put into a document like | 2:21:23 | 2:21:29 | |
this but the practicalities of
persuading people to participate, | 2:21:29 | 2:21:34 | |
but what about extending that to
training about what the seven | 2:21:34 | 2:21:38 | |
principles of public life are
actually intended to mean in our | 2:21:38 | 2:21:44 | |
lives and of all the public figures
in this place? I give way. I can't | 2:21:44 | 2:21:51 | |
quite keep waiting until he tells
you whether or not he will agree | 2:21:51 | 2:21:54 | |
that in order to persuade colleagues
to undertake some training, some | 2:21:54 | 2:21:58 | |
kind of sanctions might concentrate
people's minds. For example having | 2:21:58 | 2:22:01 | |
paid out or something similar. I am
so much more in favour of persuasion | 2:22:01 | 2:22:08 | |
than coercion. And in the end can I
just tell the honourable lady you | 2:22:08 | 2:22:14 | |
can lead a horse to water but you
cannot make them drink. You could | 2:22:14 | 2:22:20 | |
force MPs to attend a training
session but what kind of attitude | 2:22:20 | 2:22:24 | |
would they have two words that
training if they did not feel it was | 2:22:24 | 2:22:28 | |
something they wanted to do. Just
take a step back and think about how | 2:22:28 | 2:22:34 | |
we want to do this. I do agree with
her. Unless we promote conversation | 2:22:34 | 2:22:40 | |
and understanding about the
principles and values that should | 2:22:40 | 2:22:45 | |
guide behaviour, the risk is
confusion about what is acceptable | 2:22:45 | 2:22:48 | |
or not will persist. Rules and
regulations are of course important | 2:22:48 | 2:22:56 | |
but PACAC's work has shown so often
that when rules are not underpinned | 2:22:56 | 2:23:00 | |
by clear principles and values which
are understood, discussed and talked | 2:23:00 | 2:23:02 | |
about, the outcome is a
preoccupation with compliance with | 2:23:02 | 2:23:08 | |
the rules rather than upholding but
reflects the values and principles | 2:23:08 | 2:23:13 | |
that we want to see upheld. The road
to damnation, the road to damnation | 2:23:13 | 2:23:19 | |
is all too congested these days with
people who argue as conduct was, | 2:23:19 | 2:23:25 | |
could, within the rule, unquote. I
am very much enjoying his comments | 2:23:25 | 2:23:33 | |
and it is what we can do to improve
the culture of this place and I | 2:23:33 | 2:23:39 | |
wholeheartedly endorse his
suggestion of training on the simple | 2:23:39 | 2:23:42 | |
principles of public life. I think
we probably need some sanctions in | 2:23:42 | 2:23:49 | |
training but we need a different way
of looking at it, there is an | 2:23:49 | 2:23:52 | |
arrogance people have and they seem
to take the view that they didn't | 2:23:52 | 2:23:54 | |
need training as a learning should
be something that we stop at the age | 2:23:54 | 2:23:58 | |
of 18 when we leave full-time
education rather than something we | 2:23:58 | 2:24:01 | |
should continually aim to find out
more and work out how to do our job | 2:24:01 | 2:24:06 | |
and fulfil responsibilities better,
continual learning and continual | 2:24:06 | 2:24:08 | |
training. I couldn't agree more with
the honourable lady and they so much | 2:24:08 | 2:24:16 | |
want there to win this argument and
hearts and minds with this idyllic | 2:24:16 | 2:24:20 | |
rather than have to resort to
coercion which would be so | 2:24:20 | 2:24:28 | |
counter-productive in terms of what
she really wants to be achieved, | 2:24:28 | 2:24:32 | |
because to avoid just being
preoccupied with compliance in the | 2:24:32 | 2:24:40 | |
future, but the regulations and the
principles and values that we won't | 2:24:40 | 2:24:44 | |
behaviour to reflect must be clearly
set out and adjudicated. Perhaps | 2:24:44 | 2:24:49 | |
only a breach of the rules attracts
sanction but nevertheless there | 2:24:49 | 2:24:53 | |
needs to be some authority and we
suggest in respect of MPs the | 2:24:53 | 2:24:58 | |
Parliamentary Commissioner for
standards who will at least call | 2:24:58 | 2:25:01 | |
that people who are failing to live
up to the principles and values we | 2:25:01 | 2:25:04 | |
have all signed up to. They also
argued in our submission that the | 2:25:04 | 2:25:08 | |
rules should be adjudicated by a
separate person with appropriate | 2:25:08 | 2:25:13 | |
legal expertise and the appointment
of legal advice the Parliamentary | 2:25:13 | 2:25:17 | |
Commissioner for standards is a
really good step in that direction | 2:25:17 | 2:25:21 | |
and in fact the Parliamentary
Commissioner for standards has one | 2:25:21 | 2:25:24 | |
of the thought leaders is perhaps
one of the more important than her | 2:25:24 | 2:25:28 | |
role as adjudicator of rules. | 2:25:28 | 2:25:33 | |
The working group recognises the
need for comprehensive training for | 2:25:33 | 2:25:36 | |
MPs, peers and staff to help them
understand harassment and sexual | 2:25:36 | 2:25:41 | |
abuse and to assist professional
practice and members in their | 2:25:41 | 2:25:48 | |
positions and employers. It is
essential to | 2:25:48 | 2:26:00 | |
who will not have the authority to
carry out that kind of training that | 2:26:03 | 2:26:08 | |
the honourable lady referred to
earlier. The culture of an | 2:26:08 | 2:26:13 | |
organisation is the responsibility
of its leaders. We parliamentarians | 2:26:13 | 2:26:19 | |
must be the champions of change or
will not happen. And we must be held | 2:26:19 | 2:26:25 | |
accountable for its success. We
cannot delegate this vital | 2:26:25 | 2:26:28 | |
government's function to anyone
else, and normal parliament secure | 2:26:28 | 2:26:32 | |
public trust if we seem incapable of
exercising effective governance. I | 2:26:32 | 2:26:39 | |
give way. I wondered what his
concerns are about the standards | 2:26:39 | 2:26:46 | |
committee and the role of the
standards committee when it comes to | 2:26:46 | 2:26:50 | |
identifying what is relevant
sanction? Because the standards | 2:26:50 | 2:26:54 | |
committee is made up of some MPs are
least, it could be open to the | 2:26:54 | 2:27:00 | |
accusation of MPs marking their own
Hallmark, is essentially it is MPs | 2:27:00 | 2:27:04 | |
who will make your own decision over
whether a colleague is expelled long | 2:27:04 | 2:27:13 | |
enough. All of these are good ideas,
in terms of marking our own | 2:27:13 | 2:27:20 | |
Hallmark, I think this is an
unavoidable consequence of the | 2:27:20 | 2:27:24 | |
constitutional position of this
House and the other place. But what | 2:27:24 | 2:27:29 | |
must be much more explicit is the
advice on which we are marking our | 2:27:29 | 2:27:37 | |
own Hallmark, and that is why I
think having legal advice for the | 2:27:37 | 2:27:41 | |
parliamentary commission over
standards is important, and in the | 2:27:41 | 2:27:45 | |
end having someone who simply
adjudicates or provides an | 2:27:45 | 2:27:49 | |
adjudication on far clearer legal
principles by someone who has | 2:27:49 | 2:27:53 | |
juridical experience of judging
evidence and drills, someone like a | 2:27:53 | 2:28:00 | |
judge, rather than this vague
arrangement we have at the moment. | 2:28:00 | 2:28:04 | |
That is not to criticise any past or
present parliamentary commissioner | 2:28:04 | 2:28:08 | |
for standards, it is just we asked
the person to take on the | 2:28:08 | 2:28:11 | |
responsibility to adjudicate on
rules and evidence they may not | 2:28:11 | 2:28:18 | |
actually have much training and
experience to do so. It is not a | 2:28:18 | 2:28:22 | |
qualification for the job, it is
only one of them, rather than the | 2:28:22 | 2:28:28 | |
qualification. I hope that answers
the question. On the instruction of | 2:28:28 | 2:28:34 | |
an independent complaints and
grievance policy to underpin the | 2:28:34 | 2:28:36 | |
behaviour code, I am delighted the
working group has recognised the | 2:28:36 | 2:28:42 | |
need to make sure behaviour can be
addressed effectively. They have | 2:28:42 | 2:28:46 | |
also recognised appropriate support
is available for complainants and | 2:28:46 | 2:28:51 | |
alleged perpetrators and crucially
the need for an HR service for MPs | 2:28:51 | 2:28:55 | |
and peers staff. I would like to
endorse the conclusions, the latter | 2:28:55 | 2:29:00 | |
of which was included in the working
group. -- submission to the working | 2:29:00 | 2:29:05 | |
group to the recent scandal is in
large part about a failure of our | 2:29:05 | 2:29:16 | |
own governments. This stems from a
degree of a field by Parliament to | 2:29:16 | 2:29:20 | |
establish means by which we can be
more mindful of ourselves as an | 2:29:20 | 2:29:25 | |
institution. As always, every action
there is are crying for more | 2:29:25 | 2:29:31 | |
comprehensive rules and tougher
sanctions against those who break | 2:29:31 | 2:29:35 | |
them, which is undoubtedly
important. Good governance is also | 2:29:35 | 2:29:39 | |
however about much more than this,
and we now have an opportunity to | 2:29:39 | 2:29:42 | |
have a much more positive
conversation about what values we | 2:29:42 | 2:29:47 | |
want to promote and that we expect
public leaders to live by them. They | 2:29:47 | 2:29:53 | |
hope the proposed behaviour code
will clearly set out these | 2:29:53 | 2:29:56 | |
principles and values and that the
review and scrutiny of the new | 2:29:56 | 2:30:01 | |
system's success will assess how
successfully the principles and | 2:30:01 | 2:30:09 | |
values are embedded in attitude and
behaviour. This reform also needs to | 2:30:09 | 2:30:14 | |
be properly integrated into reformed
House of Commons code of conduct, | 2:30:14 | 2:30:19 | |
and I know my right honourable
friend has said there will be | 2:30:19 | 2:30:23 | |
changes to the code as a consequence
to this. My right honourable friend | 2:30:23 | 2:30:30 | |
the Leader of the House emphasised
how the working group agrees that | 2:30:30 | 2:30:32 | |
there should be a review of the
recommendations once implemented. | 2:30:32 | 2:30:38 | |
The recommendation is that this
should be overseen by a joint | 2:30:38 | 2:30:42 | |
committee of both houses, which
should also include representatives | 2:30:42 | 2:30:45 | |
of unions and employees,
organisations like the working | 2:30:45 | 2:30:49 | |
group, and it should cover the codes
of conduct of both houses. If such a | 2:30:49 | 2:30:55 | |
review is not conducted and we fail
to integrate the new arrangements | 2:30:55 | 2:30:59 | |
fully with the existing arrangements
in both houses, I feel we will not | 2:30:59 | 2:31:03 | |
have established a robust system for
the future that we all wished to | 2:31:03 | 2:31:08 | |
see. Thank you, it is a pleasure to
follow the honourable gentleman. I | 2:31:08 | 2:31:16 | |
always seem to follow him with
debates in this House, which is | 2:31:16 | 2:31:21 | |
probably how it should be given his
thoughtful contributions. I want to | 2:31:21 | 2:31:25 | |
give about -- discuss a couple of
the issues. Can I thank the Leader | 2:31:25 | 2:31:32 | |
of the House and congratulate her
for the state leadership she offered | 2:31:32 | 2:31:35 | |
throughout the working group, she
mentioned 100 hours, and I looking | 2:31:35 | 2:31:40 | |
at my colleagues behind me and I
have to say it was not the most | 2:31:40 | 2:31:45 | |
peaceful 100 hours throughout the
sessions, and there was a fractious | 2:31:45 | 2:31:48 | |
debate around some of the issues,
but I think this is a solid | 2:31:48 | 2:31:53 | |
cross-party piece of work, and I
have to concede, I do not think in | 2:31:53 | 2:31:58 | |
my 17 years in the House but I have
been involved in a piece of work | 2:31:58 | 2:32:05 | |
that is so comprehensively looked
at, which is tribute to all members. | 2:32:05 | 2:32:10 | |
Mainly those in the chamber here
today, in the way they diligently | 2:32:10 | 2:32:15 | |
approach the work underway it is
done. It is a privilege to be part | 2:32:15 | 2:32:18 | |
of this working group and I hope to
have played some part in designing | 2:32:18 | 2:32:23 | |
this hugely important report. I also
want to pay thanks to the many | 2:32:23 | 2:32:28 | |
witnesses that came in front of the
working group and the staff that | 2:32:28 | 2:32:32 | |
played a vital role in helping
provide testimony to the working | 2:32:32 | 2:32:36 | |
group. I want to thank the
Secretariat, some of whom are here, | 2:32:36 | 2:32:43 | |
regarding this debate and produced
what is a very readable report. It | 2:32:43 | 2:32:54 | |
is also a new way of working, and
possibly they most innovative | 2:32:54 | 2:32:58 | |
feature is we have the staff from
the House on the working group, and | 2:32:58 | 2:33:07 | |
I think what that does is give added
legitimacy to this report and | 2:33:07 | 2:33:11 | |
hopefully go a long way to ensure it
is taken up with a great deal of | 2:33:11 | 2:33:18 | |
confidence from the staff who worked
on the report. I hope that in the | 2:33:18 | 2:33:26 | |
future we involve the staff in the
work, particularly when it comes to | 2:33:26 | 2:33:31 | |
House issues. We need to hear the
voices of the staff because as we | 2:33:31 | 2:33:34 | |
found out in the report, they have
solid contributions to make about | 2:33:34 | 2:33:39 | |
how the House functions. I believe
this is a significant and ambitious | 2:33:39 | 2:33:46 | |
piece of work which will hopefully
help to redefine the culture in the | 2:33:46 | 2:33:52 | |
Westminster workplace, and for me
the most important part of this | 2:33:52 | 2:33:55 | |
report is the first sentence of the
first paragraph which reads, all | 2:33:55 | 2:34:01 | |
those who work for or with
Parliament have a right to dignity | 2:34:01 | 2:34:05 | |
at work. Something you would feel
does not need to be said, but it | 2:34:05 | 2:34:10 | |
underpins everything throughout this
report, and I believe it cannot be | 2:34:10 | 2:34:14 | |
said enough and reiterated enough as
we go forward. If we look at the | 2:34:14 | 2:34:22 | |
parliamentary state, -- estate,
50,000 people work in and around the | 2:34:22 | 2:34:25 | |
estate. You have we are done
demanding members of parliament, | 2:34:25 | 2:34:31 | |
even weirder House of Lords, and the
staff who provide support so we can | 2:34:31 | 2:34:36 | |
stand here and make these grand
speeches and impress our | 2:34:36 | 2:34:40 | |
constituents. It is our staff that
provide us. So it is full of very | 2:34:40 | 2:34:45 | |
diverse and sometimes we're done
strange people, we would have to | 2:34:45 | 2:34:47 | |
conclude and concede. There is one
thing in common that should unite | 2:34:47 | 2:34:55 | |
everyone in this estate, and that is
the conviction that everyone who | 2:34:55 | 2:34:58 | |
works here has the right to expect
an environment free from bullying | 2:34:58 | 2:35:06 | |
and harassment, especially sexual
harassment. There should be zero | 2:35:06 | 2:35:09 | |
tolerance for any inappropriate
behaviour. And this report was not | 2:35:09 | 2:35:16 | |
created in a vacuum, it was a
response to some very serious | 2:35:16 | 2:35:21 | |
allegations that emerged at the end
of last year, when all parties got | 2:35:21 | 2:35:27 | |
together and decided something had
to be done and this had to be | 2:35:27 | 2:35:29 | |
addressed. It was such an issue that
something had to be done. It is also | 2:35:29 | 2:35:37 | |
part of the wider part of debate
going on following the Hardy when | 2:35:37 | 2:35:47 | |
steam allegations in Hollywood. We
are at a critical juncture about the | 2:35:47 | 2:35:56 | |
debate. -- Harvey Weinstein. Have to
decide what is and is not acceptable | 2:35:56 | 2:36:05 | |
and make an important contribution
to dignity in work. It is absolutely | 2:36:05 | 2:36:10 | |
essential that Parliament leads the
way. This is the forum of national | 2:36:10 | 2:36:20 | |
debate, and we would be shirking in
our responsibility if we did not put | 2:36:20 | 2:36:24 | |
out the strongest possible statement
that it is not acceptable in this | 2:36:24 | 2:36:27 | |
place as it should be unacceptable
in any workplace across the United | 2:36:27 | 2:36:34 | |
Kingdom. If we did not lead the way
and put in place procedures and | 2:36:34 | 2:36:37 | |
processes to deal with our own
issues, we would be letting down the | 2:36:37 | 2:36:43 | |
people we serve across this country.
We should set the example and I | 2:36:43 | 2:36:46 | |
believe this document does that. It
sets out clearly our commitment to | 2:36:46 | 2:36:53 | |
put our own House in order. We have
sort of got a sense of how big scale | 2:36:53 | 2:36:59 | |
this problem is in our particular
work place because as part of our | 2:36:59 | 2:37:05 | |
work in the working group we
commissioned a short survey asking | 2:37:05 | 2:37:09 | |
people in Parliament about the
experiences, and we got a very solid | 2:37:09 | 2:37:14 | |
response from members of staff who
worked across the estate, when asked | 2:37:14 | 2:37:19 | |
about the experiences regarding
bullying. 1377 responses. The | 2:37:19 | 2:37:26 | |
results of the survey, combined by
the survey done by Unite gave us a | 2:37:26 | 2:37:40 | |
sense of what was going on, and some
results were shocking. It revealed | 2:37:40 | 2:37:45 | |
that the bullying, harassment and
sexual harassment had been a feature | 2:37:45 | 2:37:48 | |
in the lives of so many people who
work in Parliament. 39% of all | 2:37:48 | 2:37:57 | |
respondents have reported an
experience of sexual harassment or | 2:37:57 | 2:38:00 | |
bullying in the past year. 19%
reported experience of sexual | 2:38:00 | 2:38:03 | |
harassment including sexually
inappropriate behaviour. I have | 2:38:03 | 2:38:11 | |
received an e-mail from the young
woman's trust, an important e-mail | 2:38:11 | 2:38:16 | |
which I saw too late to include in
this part of my speech, but it | 2:38:16 | 2:38:20 | |
emphasised clearly that there are
issues in workplaces right across | 2:38:20 | 2:38:23 | |
the country, and the figures the
sound in the workplace is that young | 2:38:23 | 2:38:27 | |
women currently work in is similar
to what we found in the House of | 2:38:27 | 2:38:36 | |
Commons. What we have heard is a new
shared code of behaviour which will | 2:38:36 | 2:38:47 | |
underpin the new complaints and
grievance policy. What we will have | 2:38:47 | 2:38:50 | |
is a new transparent system that
will apply natural justice at its | 2:38:50 | 2:38:57 | |
core. It will be independent of the
political parties, and that is a key | 2:38:57 | 2:39:05 | |
feature. There have been concerns
raised about the political parties' | 2:39:05 | 2:39:11 | |
ability to do this, and I think all
parties are just bad at doing this | 2:39:11 | 2:39:17 | |
stuff. What we have several
unresolved cases of people who have | 2:39:17 | 2:39:22 | |
been charged with all sorts of
activities, who have still not had | 2:39:22 | 2:39:26 | |
this how to properly, -- had it
heard properly, and there is a lot | 2:39:26 | 2:39:32 | |
of discussion about the failure to
take this up because of the fear | 2:39:32 | 2:39:37 | |
that the political parties will try
to defend and protect their own | 2:39:37 | 2:39:42 | |
political interest, so an
independent route is therefore | 2:39:42 | 2:39:44 | |
absolutely essential. Partied it
will still be available for people | 2:39:44 | 2:39:48 | |
who feel it is more important for
them, but I feel that the | 2:39:48 | 2:39:54 | |
independent route will be the one
routinely used, and if anyone raises | 2:39:54 | 2:40:01 | |
concerns it will be through the
independent route that it will be | 2:40:01 | 2:40:04 | |
taken. Another feature I found
helpful is the proposal that all our | 2:40:04 | 2:40:08 | |
staff secure... I was quite shocked
there was not that facility | 2:40:08 | 2:40:15 | |
available for members of staff, and
it is essential, given we are going | 2:40:15 | 2:40:19 | |
to go forward with new codes of
behaviour and procedures about | 2:40:19 | 2:40:25 | |
grievance resolving, that the
supporters going to be given to | 2:40:25 | 2:40:28 | |
stuff. I think this is an important
new innovation which I am certain | 2:40:28 | 2:40:33 | |
will be warmly received by members
of staff throughout the House. | 2:40:33 | 2:40:40 | |
It is the concerns about sexual
harassment that led to this group | 2:40:41 | 2:40:43 | |
being set up will stop in a report
we recognised that sexual harassment | 2:40:43 | 2:40:49 | |
is for the bleak different to other
forms of inappropriate behaviour and | 2:40:49 | 2:40:54 | |
requires and definitions, deceive
you as. This new confidential steam | 2:40:54 | 2:41:02 | |
will provide practical and emotional
support to any complainant and | 2:41:02 | 2:41:04 | |
respect absolutely that complainants
have confidentiality and have no | 2:41:04 | 2:41:11 | |
obligation to report criminal
offences to the police although they | 2:41:11 | 2:41:13 | |
will be supported if they feel it is
appropriate to do so. All reports | 2:41:13 | 2:41:18 | |
will be handled by a specialist
independent sexual violence adviser | 2:41:18 | 2:41:24 | |
who will be a single point of
contact throughout the seedings and | 2:41:24 | 2:41:27 | |
I think the way this has been
designed will give confidence to | 2:41:27 | 2:41:30 | |
anybody who wants to bring forward
and respect confidentiality and the | 2:41:30 | 2:41:36 | |
proper road mapping of how
complaints are going to be conducted | 2:41:36 | 2:41:39 | |
and progressed. Sanctions are
important. I was disappointed when | 2:41:39 | 2:41:46 | |
over Christmas a draft report was
leaked to the press and the way that | 2:41:46 | 2:41:52 | |
the press sought to portray present
this was nothing overdone and | 2:41:52 | 2:41:56 | |
apology that slap on the wrist that
members if they were found to be | 2:41:56 | 2:42:02 | |
guilty in respect of any
transgression committed, but there | 2:42:02 | 2:42:05 | |
was never anything of the sort. We
have put forward a range of | 2:42:05 | 2:42:09 | |
sanctions which will be in place
from resolution dispute resolving | 2:42:09 | 2:42:14 | |
where there might be necessary for
an apology but it goes on and | 2:42:14 | 2:42:20 | |
includes right up to the possibility
of recall of an MP and expulsion of | 2:42:20 | 2:42:26 | |
a member from the House of Lords and
the full range of sanctions is | 2:42:26 | 2:42:30 | |
included in the report. Lastly I
want to talk about the culture of | 2:42:30 | 2:42:36 | |
that house because this issue has
come up again and again and it is | 2:42:36 | 2:42:40 | |
really important that we have a look
at this. I hate the culture in this | 2:42:40 | 2:42:44 | |
House. I could never been bond of
being in the Commons. I know some of | 2:42:44 | 2:42:49 | |
my friends think it is a fantastic
place to live and work but I was | 2:42:49 | 2:42:53 | |
buying it a little bit
uncomfortable. It is maybe the | 2:42:53 | 2:42:56 | |
Scottish nationalist in me that
creates a little bit, that grew | 2:42:56 | 2:43:01 | |
grapes. This House has a peculiar
historic culture that practically | 2:43:01 | 2:43:06 | |
loses patriarchy and abuse of power.
I had a female friend in the House | 2:43:06 | 2:43:12 | |
just a few months ago and was very
conscious of these issues and she | 2:43:12 | 2:43:15 | |
told me that the portraits in this
place were practically seeming to | 2:43:15 | 2:43:19 | |
harass you because the way the
images are all set up and the | 2:43:19 | 2:43:23 | |
defining feature of this has are
embedded in this historic patriarchy | 2:43:23 | 2:43:28 | |
that we have in this place. Our
workplace is a weird bastion of | 2:43:28 | 2:43:32 | |
privilege where we call friends and
strangers and the legislation is | 2:43:32 | 2:43:39 | |
designed in a sea of blues with the
bar is that we have and the... He is | 2:43:39 | 2:43:49 | |
making a good point about the sea of
alcohol in this place and witty | 2:43:49 | 2:43:54 | |
share my concerns, I was in an event
at one o'clock this afternoon and | 2:43:54 | 2:43:59 | |
wine was being served, does he
consider the appropriate? I am | 2:43:59 | 2:44:04 | |
grateful for her to raising this, I
want to come evidence that is | 2:44:04 | 2:44:09 | |
compelling that we came across and
that is from Sarah child who -- | 2:44:09 | 2:44:14 | |
Sarah Giles. A fantastic report that
somehow got to the part about how | 2:44:14 | 2:44:20 | |
this plays does business, the
environment we work and made some | 2:44:20 | 2:44:27 | |
practical suggestions about how this
is, don't try to suggest to me that | 2:44:27 | 2:44:34 | |
it is good working practice, that it
allows people getting home to their | 2:44:34 | 2:44:41 | |
families, it is nonsense, we do it
because we are committed to doing | 2:44:41 | 2:44:46 | |
it, I don't think anybody would
convince me that this would be good | 2:44:46 | 2:44:49 | |
practice. Dates back to the example
of this place, we should lead the | 2:44:49 | 2:44:55 | |
way in terms of good normal working
practice. In Scotland we have | 2:44:55 | 2:44:59 | |
designed our Parliament round the
normal working day and if we should | 2:44:59 | 2:45:01 | |
do it so could we, as we go forward
I think we will continue to engage | 2:45:01 | 2:45:07 | |
the work of Sarah, I couldn't
commend her report another when it | 2:45:07 | 2:45:10 | |
comes to having a look at the
culture and environment of this | 2:45:10 | 2:45:13 | |
place. I think the member but giving
way and he is making some very | 2:45:13 | 2:45:21 | |
powerful points. With the number of
me that everyone in this chamber, we | 2:45:21 | 2:45:26 | |
are here today are very important
job and responsible job, we are | 2:45:26 | 2:45:30 | |
making the laws which dictate and
set the parameters for people right | 2:45:30 | 2:45:35 | |
across the United Kingdom and is the
knot at the very heart of this we | 2:45:35 | 2:45:39 | |
can talk about the culture and
environment and the bars, but there | 2:45:39 | 2:45:44 | |
is an important issue about personal
responsibility, the individuals | 2:45:44 | 2:45:47 | |
across all of the parties should
know better, take personal | 2:45:47 | 2:45:52 | |
responsibility and should act in an
appropriate and respectful way to | 2:45:52 | 2:45:56 | |
everybody regardless of the working
hours and regardless of the bars and | 2:45:56 | 2:45:58 | |
the restaurants. I must take that as
a personal chastisement. Sometimes | 2:45:58 | 2:46:10 | |
enjoy a pint of the guest ales in
the strangers bar. The honourable | 2:46:10 | 2:46:16 | |
lady is right, it is all about
personal behaviour but we have an | 2:46:16 | 2:46:19 | |
unusual workplace. I don't know any
other Mac workplace in my | 2:46:19 | 2:46:23 | |
constituency which would have six
buyers as a feature of its normal | 2:46:23 | 2:46:27 | |
business, I think we have to
recognise that because of the way | 2:46:27 | 2:46:31 | |
this is setup, the way the whole
designed it can lead to difficult | 2:46:31 | 2:46:35 | |
issues and we begin to see in the
course the past year, the member per | 2:46:35 | 2:46:40 | |
Essex and Harwich and West Essex
remembered how historically we got | 2:46:40 | 2:46:43 | |
to this place but it is a little to
do with how this is as had been | 2:46:43 | 2:46:49 | |
constricted and designed in the way
we do business so I think all these | 2:46:49 | 2:46:52 | |
things are perhaps, I am glad I had
got onto this because you mentioned | 2:46:52 | 2:46:56 | |
training in his contribution and we
spent hours and hours discussing the | 2:46:56 | 2:47:01 | |
issue of training and I think we got
to a reasonable place where a | 2:47:01 | 2:47:05 | |
consensual view started to emerge
about how we should report this in | 2:47:05 | 2:47:09 | |
the working group report. I am of
the view that the should be | 2:47:09 | 2:47:13 | |
compulsory training and I actually
supported the idea that they would | 2:47:13 | 2:47:17 | |
be a kitemark given to members of
Parliament who have been the | 2:47:17 | 2:47:22 | |
training, members of staff who are
looking round about who they should | 2:47:22 | 2:47:26 | |
work for will see a kitemark
attached to a member of parliament | 2:47:26 | 2:47:28 | |
knowing they had been through
training and they would have a | 2:47:28 | 2:47:33 | |
better expectation of a good
workplace environment as opposed to | 2:47:33 | 2:47:36 | |
somebody who rejects draining out of
hand and weather might be issues, as | 2:47:36 | 2:47:43 | |
figure was a good suggestion I
couldn't convince the House. It | 2:47:43 | 2:47:45 | |
actually came from the staff
represented on the group. I think as | 2:47:45 | 2:47:50 | |
a way forward, training would be
mandatory for new members of | 2:47:50 | 2:47:56 | |
Parliament, the honourable gentleman
makes a good point. Most members of | 2:47:56 | 2:48:00 | |
parliament here have never been
employed as before. I was never an | 2:48:00 | 2:48:02 | |
employer. Those of us who come from
a more modest background when it | 2:48:02 | 2:48:12 | |
comes to these issues are perhaps
never been employers before. I | 2:48:12 | 2:48:15 | |
didn't know how to manage staff. He
had to learn through experience and | 2:48:15 | 2:48:19 | |
do it on the job. I think there is
something really helpful and useful | 2:48:19 | 2:48:23 | |
about being given that training, not
just about issues to do with quality | 2:48:23 | 2:48:28 | |
but issues to do with out to be a
good employer and I think there is | 2:48:28 | 2:48:31 | |
nothing wrong with that and they
welcome the recommendation that in | 2:48:31 | 2:48:34 | |
the next Parliament members will be
obliged to go through training. | 2:48:34 | 2:48:40 | |
Sometimes the people who will rush
to go to training who are those of | 2:48:40 | 2:48:42 | |
us who are interested and I have no
issue about taking training and I | 2:48:42 | 2:48:47 | |
look forward to it but is how about
how we dragged the old dinosaurs and | 2:48:47 | 2:48:51 | |
those who have a more traditional
view of the workplace environment | 2:48:51 | 2:48:55 | |
that might go to influence some of
their approaches to play members of | 2:48:55 | 2:48:58 | |
staff and it is how we get them and
maybe that kitemark issue would be | 2:48:58 | 2:49:01 | |
the way that divides people who are
prepared to have important quality | 2:49:01 | 2:49:06 | |
planning... I think he may, to
encourage them because I know we | 2:49:06 | 2:49:13 | |
have been so many draft of this
report on this issue but the good | 2:49:13 | 2:49:17 | |
employer standard idea is is in
paragraph 81 and 79 and I was very | 2:49:17 | 2:49:23 | |
happy we did get to the place of
saying until such time training is | 2:49:23 | 2:49:28 | |
mandatory, records will be publicly
available which might help focus | 2:49:28 | 2:49:32 | |
minds before compulsion is actually
there. There is a kitemark related | 2:49:32 | 2:49:39 | |
issue, may be slightly different to
what was eventually agreed but they | 2:49:39 | 2:49:42 | |
do accept that. I think it is a
welcome addition to this report. | 2:49:42 | 2:49:50 | |
This is a really important report
and I think it was certainly worth | 2:49:50 | 2:49:57 | |
spending 100 hours in the course of
those last few months and I see this | 2:49:57 | 2:50:01 | |
as being more than just a report for
this House, a think this could be a | 2:50:01 | 2:50:05 | |
blueprint for complex workplaces red
Prosser country and possibly be the | 2:50:05 | 2:50:11 | |
start -- right across the workplace
and the culture of this place. There | 2:50:11 | 2:50:17 | |
is no going back. I will give way. I
thank him very much. I am fascinated | 2:50:17 | 2:50:23 | |
by his remarks on training and I
agree with about 99% of what he is | 2:50:23 | 2:50:29 | |
saying but I wonder if he could
comment further for us on what his | 2:50:29 | 2:50:32 | |
thoughts about when training is
being taken how often people should | 2:50:32 | 2:50:36 | |
renew and undergo that training
because we all know that workplaces | 2:50:36 | 2:50:40 | |
change very fast and legislation
changes faster was considered | 2:50:40 | 2:50:43 | |
acceptable maybe ten or 15 ago isn't
any more and I would be interested | 2:50:43 | 2:50:46 | |
in those comments. It is not
something we consider and she is | 2:50:46 | 2:50:52 | |
right that such is the fast changing
and evolving workplace environment | 2:50:52 | 2:50:56 | |
that the should be a requirement for
people to come back and refreshed | 2:50:56 | 2:50:59 | |
because we are seeing new
innovations and I look at colleagues | 2:50:59 | 2:51:03 | |
and I can see any real objection to
that and I think as we go forward it | 2:51:03 | 2:51:08 | |
might be something we consider as we
do a bold with this report. I will | 2:51:08 | 2:51:12 | |
give way. Surely if we look outside
this place, along with almost every | 2:51:12 | 2:51:20 | |
other industry, there is something
called continual professional | 2:51:20 | 2:51:22 | |
development and of the dinosaurs
don't like being dragged into that | 2:51:22 | 2:51:24 | |
they know what the alternative is. A
useful contribution. My workplace | 2:51:24 | 2:51:30 | |
background was in a rock band so I
am not all that familiar with some | 2:51:30 | 2:51:34 | |
of the things that maybe have gone
on in an industry before but I will | 2:51:34 | 2:51:38 | |
take lessons from the honourable
gentleman who nobody what he is | 2:51:38 | 2:51:40 | |
talking about. I will conclude --
who seems to know what you're | 2:51:40 | 2:51:45 | |
talking about. This is a helpful and
worthwhile document. I believe there | 2:51:45 | 2:51:48 | |
is no going back in the quest for
equality. We have reached the | 2:51:48 | 2:51:52 | |
defining point last year when all
these issues starting to emerge in | 2:51:52 | 2:51:58 | |
the range of societal campaigns
online, people who just decided they | 2:51:58 | 2:52:03 | |
had had enough, there is no going
back and I hope that this report | 2:52:03 | 2:52:09 | |
were maybe mark the beginning of the
end of some of the horrible and | 2:52:09 | 2:52:14 | |
appalling practices we have seen in
this House over the years. I am | 2:52:14 | 2:52:20 | |
grateful, it is a great pleasure to
follow the honourable gentleman in a | 2:52:20 | 2:52:23 | |
more reflective mood and sometimes
displays and has, as I think if it's | 2:52:23 | 2:52:30 | |
the serious subject matter and he
dealt with it very seriously and | 2:52:30 | 2:52:35 | |
that is a great pleasure to follow
his comments. I also want to admire | 2:52:35 | 2:52:41 | |
support -- add my support to the
motion that the leader mood that is | 2:52:41 | 2:52:44 | |
before us and they report that backs
it up and the proposals. I just had | 2:52:44 | 2:52:49 | |
a few things I wanted to add to the
debate. Several colleagues have | 2:52:49 | 2:52:54 | |
referenced the events of last year
that triggered this particular set | 2:52:54 | 2:52:59 | |
of proposals and work but I just
want to put on record that actually | 2:52:59 | 2:53:06 | |
when I became government Chief Whip
in 2015, shortly after that there | 2:53:06 | 2:53:11 | |
were a number of issues and has and
this was an area of work which I had | 2:53:11 | 2:53:17 | |
started in training on a cross-party
basis working with all the parties | 2:53:17 | 2:53:22 | |
in the House looking to see if we
could improve the way this has dealt | 2:53:22 | 2:53:25 | |
with some of these issues. Initially
parties obviously have their own | 2:53:25 | 2:53:31 | |
processes and for various reasons
they don't command the confidence, I | 2:53:31 | 2:53:37 | |
think either of members and I think
members of my party weren't entirely | 2:53:37 | 2:53:41 | |
comfortable processes that were
controlled by political parties, and | 2:53:41 | 2:53:46 | |
I think that was also the view that
was expressed by people who worked | 2:53:46 | 2:53:50 | |
in the House and those outside they
didn't the confidence that a party | 2:53:50 | 2:53:56 | |
run process even if it was a
fantastic process it simply wouldn't | 2:53:56 | 2:53:59 | |
have commanded the confidence and it
was very clear from the views that | 2:53:59 | 2:54:03 | |
were expressed to me both by
colleagues, the conversations I had | 2:54:03 | 2:54:07 | |
with members of other parties, and
indeed the representatives of | 2:54:07 | 2:54:12 | |
members of our staff that came to
see me, but a house process covering | 2:54:12 | 2:54:18 | |
all members of Parliament on a
cross-party basis would be the best | 2:54:18 | 2:54:23 | |
way of proceeding and we started, Mr
Deputy Speaker, to set some of those | 2:54:23 | 2:54:30 | |
processes in train and it was to my
disappointment that the European | 2:54:30 | 2:54:36 | |
Union referendum intervened and
terminated the career of David | 2:54:36 | 2:54:40 | |
Cameron and indeed myself in
government and we weren't able to | 2:54:40 | 2:54:43 | |
bring those processes to fruition,
so I was actually very pleased, I | 2:54:43 | 2:54:50 | |
wasn't pleased about why the leader
of the House had to put these | 2:54:50 | 2:54:53 | |
processes in place but I was very
pleased that she responded so | 2:54:53 | 2:54:57 | |
strongly to the events that took
place last year. Both in parliament | 2:54:57 | 2:55:02 | |
and outside it and actually put
those processes and train and I was | 2:55:02 | 2:55:08 | |
pleased it was done on a cross-party
basis and I was pleased that all the | 2:55:08 | 2:55:11 | |
parties took part in the process and
we have come up with the | 2:55:11 | 2:55:15 | |
comprehensive report which I have
taken the trouble to study and I | 2:55:15 | 2:55:19 | |
think that would be a step forward. | 2:55:19 | 2:55:31 | |
I would like to thank the honourable
member for gold Ford, who served as | 2:55:31 | 2:55:35 | |
my executive, and working with me,
she led many of these issues as part | 2:55:35 | 2:55:41 | |
of the office. -- the honourable
member for Gilford. Colleagues on | 2:55:41 | 2:55:44 | |
this side of the House and the other
side know | 2:55:44 | 2:55:56 | |
that... She made it clear how
strongly she takes these matters, | 2:56:02 | 2:56:06 | |
and I wanted to make sure it was on
the record that my banks were | 2:56:06 | 2:56:14 | |
expressed for her efforts when she
was deputy Chief Whip. Although it | 2:56:14 | 2:56:18 | |
is clear from the things that have
been talked about publicly and the | 2:56:18 | 2:56:22 | |
responses to the survey that the
honourable member mentioned, | 2:56:22 | 2:56:27 | |
bullying and harassment affects all
members of staff. It is indeed the | 2:56:27 | 2:56:34 | |
case that it does affect female
members of staff more severely than | 2:56:34 | 2:56:42 | |
others, and if we are to get more
women to be members of Parliament | 2:56:42 | 2:56:47 | |
and work in this House and be
treated as equals in dealing with | 2:56:47 | 2:56:52 | |
this is incredibly important, but
we're working to try to get more | 2:56:52 | 2:57:05 | |
female members of conservative, and
I am behind this because I think it | 2:57:05 | 2:57:09 | |
will have that effect. I wanted to
talk about furnace. When the report | 2:57:09 | 2:57:13 | |
was first produced, there was some
comment outside the House. -- about | 2:57:13 | 2:57:18 | |
fairness. There was some comment
about how the proposals mean the | 2:57:18 | 2:57:28 | |
investigations take place in private
without everything being published, | 2:57:28 | 2:57:32 | |
but I think that is like most
workplaces. In most places when | 2:57:32 | 2:57:38 | |
someone makes a complaint about
another employee, in the workplace | 2:57:38 | 2:57:40 | |
the matters are not published in
national newspapers, and I always | 2:57:40 | 2:57:45 | |
thought in this House that it was
true when we were going through the | 2:57:45 | 2:57:48 | |
difficulties on expenses but a good
test for members of Parliament is | 2:57:48 | 2:57:52 | |
for us to be judged at least by the
standards we expect of everyone | 2:57:52 | 2:57:59 | |
else, so the processes that would be
used for us to deal with complaints | 2:57:59 | 2:58:05 | |
about bullying and harassment should
be the same processes exist in | 2:58:05 | 2:58:11 | |
up-to-the-minute workplaces, and
those are ones you would not expect | 2:58:11 | 2:58:16 | |
everything to be published in a
national newspaper, but I do welcome | 2:58:16 | 2:58:21 | |
the fact it refers in the report to
the fact you have to recognise that | 2:58:21 | 2:58:25 | |
sometimes when there are examples
bullying and harassment, there | 2:58:25 | 2:58:30 | |
patterns of behaviour and sometimes
people need the confidence to come | 2:58:30 | 2:58:41 | |
forward, and sometimes it is only
when people are aware that there is | 2:58:41 | 2:58:43 | |
an issue with someone's behaviour
that they are willing to come | 2:58:43 | 2:58:47 | |
forward. It is a difficult balance
to get right, to protect the | 2:58:47 | 2:58:54 | |
confidentiality and those who might
be unfairly accused, but also for | 2:58:54 | 2:58:58 | |
members of Parliament, we employ
large numbers of staff, and if a | 2:58:58 | 2:59:03 | |
member of Parliament has a complaint
made against them and they are | 2:59:03 | 2:59:07 | |
identified, it would not be
difficult for newspapers to identify | 2:59:07 | 2:59:10 | |
which of the members of staff had
probably made the complaint, so | 2:59:10 | 2:59:15 | |
having a disciplinary process... It
is not helpful. The report is very | 2:59:15 | 2:59:27 | |
welcome. I wanted to say something
in response to what the honourable | 2:59:27 | 2:59:32 | |
member said about the standards
committee, I do think that her issue | 2:59:32 | 2:59:37 | |
about marking our own homework would
have been a reasonable point before | 2:59:37 | 2:59:44 | |
lay members were added to the
standards committee, but I think for | 2:59:44 | 2:59:47 | |
members of the public, the fact that
they are utterly members on the | 2:59:47 | 2:59:52 | |
standards committee should give them
the confidence that the members of | 2:59:52 | 2:59:55 | |
Parliament on the standards
committee cannot just decide things | 2:59:55 | 3:00:01 | |
by standards they consider
appropriate, and it is important | 3:00:01 | 3:00:07 | |
they bring an outside valuable
perspective. I am not 100% sure of | 3:00:07 | 3:00:14 | |
my facts, but I am sure the lay
members do not actually thought, so | 3:00:14 | 3:00:18 | |
although I would agree that it is a
great step forward that there are | 3:00:18 | 3:00:22 | |
there, I have concerns that it will
be MPs who are seen to be voting on | 3:00:22 | 3:00:26 | |
the colleagues, even if we have had
an independent and good procedure | 3:00:26 | 3:00:31 | |
until that point, I still think it
is a weakness. If you are talking | 3:00:31 | 3:00:36 | |
about a serious sanction, and if we
were talking about expelling the | 3:00:36 | 3:00:43 | |
member of Parliament or suspending
them for a period where conditions | 3:00:43 | 3:00:47 | |
would kick in, that is a decision
for the House, not the standards | 3:00:47 | 3:00:54 | |
committee. The House would be
furnished with a report from the | 3:00:54 | 3:00:58 | |
parliamentary commissioner, and the
report of the standards committee, | 3:00:58 | 3:01:01 | |
and I think the change that was very
valuable when we introduced lay | 3:01:01 | 3:01:05 | |
members was members of the House
would be aware that even if the | 3:01:05 | 3:01:10 | |
member of Parliament on the
committee had had a view, the lay | 3:01:10 | 3:01:14 | |
members are able to have their views
expressed in my report of the | 3:01:14 | 3:01:19 | |
committee, and I see the chairman of
the committee I think was nodding to | 3:01:19 | 3:01:22 | |
that. Let me just complete the point
and I will give way. | 3:01:22 | 3:01:36 | |
So it is not just the views of
members of Parliament going before | 3:01:36 | 3:01:40 | |
the House, it is the views of the
lake committee, so that can affect | 3:01:40 | 3:01:46 | |
our views of what is and is not
acceptable. He is right that lay | 3:01:46 | 3:01:53 | |
members present when decisions are
made gives the standards committee | 3:01:53 | 3:01:56 | |
more authority, but there is
something odd about the committee | 3:01:56 | 3:02:04 | |
itself adjudicating about rules and
evidence when that is something that | 3:02:04 | 3:02:10 | |
should be done by a lawyer. | 3:02:10 | 3:02:21 | |
To be told, this is the judgment,
and if you overturn it your | 3:02:26 | 3:02:31 | |
overturning a respectable opinion,
on your head be it. I listen to do | 3:02:31 | 3:02:36 | |
what he says, and I put a fair bit
of weight on it given that he chairs | 3:02:36 | 3:02:41 | |
the committee, I do not entirely
agree, though. I have taken the | 3:02:41 | 3:02:44 | |
trouble over the years with
standards committee reports, | 3:02:44 | 3:02:49 | |
particularly serious ones and to
read the report of the parliamentary | 3:02:49 | 3:02:57 | |
commissioner, and the thing that
always struck me, I have often | 3:02:57 | 3:03:04 | |
looked at how thorough the
parliamentary commissioner has | 3:03:04 | 3:03:06 | |
looked into, particularly serious
allegations, and I have often | 3:03:06 | 3:03:11 | |
thought to myself, if you were ever
tempted not to uphold the standards | 3:03:11 | 3:03:16 | |
of behaviour, you would not want to
be subject to that level of scrutiny | 3:03:16 | 3:03:22 | |
because it is fairly exacting. I do
not know how many people have looked | 3:03:22 | 3:03:28 | |
at this, but it has been looked at
in some considerable detail. The | 3:03:28 | 3:03:34 | |
report put before the committee are
far and detailed, and when I have | 3:03:34 | 3:03:46 | |
read the reports of the committee on
standards, I have felt that they | 3:03:46 | 3:03:50 | |
have been very balanced, tough and
fear, and it is not clear when you | 3:03:50 | 3:03:55 | |
read the reports of any bias coming
into them from a particular party | 3:03:55 | 3:04:03 | |
view of members of Parliament, I
have always got the system is pretty | 3:04:03 | 3:04:07 | |
good. I think the only gap was
rectified by the addition of lay | 3:04:07 | 3:04:24 | |
members I had a situation where
there was one view, but the judge in | 3:04:34 | 3:04:40 | |
court give a much harsher view,
which completely undermines the | 3:04:40 | 3:04:43 | |
authority of the system | 3:04:43 | 3:04:54 | |
we have. I do not entirely agree,
but I do not want to deviate from | 3:04:58 | 3:05:03 | |
the debate on this into a wider
debate about standards. My final | 3:05:03 | 3:05:08 | |
point was actually about training
and culture. I think the Member for | 3:05:08 | 3:05:18 | |
Perth made a sensible point when he
spoke about the backgrounds of | 3:05:18 | 3:05:22 | |
members of Parliament. I will pick
up slightly on his comments about | 3:05:22 | 3:05:32 | |
assuming everyone on this side has a
privileged background, which is not | 3:05:32 | 3:05:37 | |
true, and I will not or him with the
fact I was the first person to go to | 3:05:37 | 3:05:43 | |
university and my father was a
labourer, and we have not had any | 3:05:43 | 3:05:46 | |
members of parliament in the family
before. He makes a sensible point | 3:05:46 | 3:05:54 | |
that members of Parliament have a
very varied set of backgrounds. Some | 3:05:54 | 3:05:59 | |
of us have employed significant
amounts of people, some will have | 3:05:59 | 3:06:04 | |
worked in a business grabbers, and
experience of management teams, and | 3:06:04 | 3:06:10 | |
others will have come -- in a
business for others, and experience | 3:06:10 | 3:06:18 | |
of management teams, others will
have come in without that | 3:06:18 | 3:06:20 | |
experience. Often mistakes are made
not because of ill intent, but as my | 3:06:20 | 3:06:30 | |
honourable friend said, members come
with the best of intentions, but | 3:06:30 | 3:06:35 | |
often do not have the skills, but it
is about the expectations you have, | 3:06:35 | 3:06:48 | |
and managing HR supports you can be
better trained and better supported, | 3:06:48 | 3:06:51 | |
but you also have to have someone to
ask -- you also have someone to ask | 3:06:51 | 3:06:55 | |
questions that they are challenging
issues you're not comfortable | 3:06:55 | 3:06:57 | |
dealing with, I think that is very
valuable. I welcome the training in | 3:06:57 | 3:07:07 | |
part of the induction process for
new members of Parliament, and I do | 3:07:07 | 3:07:11 | |
not think there was a massive gap
between the honourable lady and my | 3:07:11 | 3:07:16 | |
honourable friend, I do think
everyone should go through the | 3:07:16 | 3:07:20 | |
training, but the challenge is this,
you can mandate that everyone goes | 3:07:20 | 3:07:24 | |
through a training course, but you
cannot mandate that the people who | 3:07:24 | 3:07:32 | |
turn up will listen attentively and
change their behaviour having | 3:07:32 | 3:07:35 | |
attended the training, and it seems
to me that the people least likely | 3:07:35 | 3:07:40 | |
to go to the training of those most
in need of it, so the challenge is | 3:07:40 | 3:07:45 | |
to do what the honourable lady said,
which is to persuade people that | 3:07:45 | 3:07:52 | |
they should go on the training and
listen to the training, change their | 3:07:52 | 3:07:56 | |
behaviour. I do think the proposals
set out about publicising whether | 3:07:56 | 3:08:03 | |
people have been on the training, so
the is peer pressure that people | 3:08:03 | 3:08:07 | |
feel they should go, and the staff
they might want to hire puts | 3:08:07 | 3:08:14 | |
pressure on them is a good sign, but
for new members of parliament, it | 3:08:14 | 3:08:18 | |
should be the standard set of
training that every Parliament | 3:08:18 | 3:08:23 | |
undertakes solely undertake the
expectations correctly. That leads | 3:08:23 | 3:08:29 | |
to my second half of the point,
which is about the culture of this | 3:08:29 | 3:08:32 | |
place. On the debates we have had, I
was perhaps fortunate in having | 3:08:32 | 3:08:46 | |
worked for two businesses which took
management and how they treated | 3:08:46 | 3:08:49 | |
their people very seriously, and I
went on training courses about how | 3:08:49 | 3:08:53 | |
you manage people, how you set
expectations and what was expected, | 3:08:53 | 3:08:57 | |
and staff members were empowered to
speak up and it was recognised | 3:08:57 | 3:09:05 | |
speaking up was the right thing to
do about a range of issues, whether | 3:09:05 | 3:09:09 | |
it was about how they ran the
business or behaved, and that set | 3:09:09 | 3:09:14 | |
the right sort of culture. That is
not always the case. I was thinking | 3:09:14 | 3:09:18 | |
through some of the things that have
happened over the last few months, | 3:09:18 | 3:09:23 | |
and there have been examples of
behaviour, and people have said | 3:09:23 | 3:09:28 | |
things like, this sort of behaviour
was acceptable a few years ago, and | 3:09:28 | 3:09:32 | |
things seem to have changed. I was
thinking back to when I started my | 3:09:32 | 3:09:37 | |
working life when I left university,
which tragically is a lot longer ago | 3:09:37 | 3:09:41 | |
than I care to remember, 1991, and I
was thinking through some of the | 3:09:41 | 3:09:48 | |
specific examples we have read
about, whether it is members of this | 3:09:48 | 3:09:51 | |
House or outside, and you have heard
people say that this sort of | 3:09:51 | 3:09:56 | |
behaviour used to be acceptable, and
I got back to when I started 27 | 3:09:56 | 3:10:02 | |
years ago, and all sort of things
were not acceptable 27 years ago. | 3:10:02 | 3:10:06 | |
The difference was that 27 years ago
and more recently, people used to | 3:10:06 | 3:10:10 | |
get away with behaving like that.
The thing that has changed is not | 3:10:10 | 3:10:15 | |
that the behaviours are no longer
acceptable, actually they never wear | 3:10:15 | 3:10:19 | |
acceptable, the difference now is
people cannot get away with them, | 3:10:19 | 3:10:25 | |
which is right, and that is an
improvement. What we are trying to | 3:10:25 | 3:10:29 | |
deliver with the training and the
change of culture is that everyone | 3:10:29 | 3:10:32 | |
accepts that not only are those sort
of behaviour is not acceptable, no | 3:10:32 | 3:10:37 | |
one is going to let them get away
with it. | 3:10:37 | 3:10:53 | |
It changes the culture it will have
taken a huge step forward. I am very | 3:10:53 | 3:10:58 | |
happy to support the motion. And
coming into the House. Can I just | 3:10:58 | 3:11:04 | |
say I still want to make sure that
we get equal time. We are going to | 3:11:04 | 3:11:08 | |
20 26. If we all work for about ten
minutes. It will be very helpful. | 3:11:08 | 3:11:14 | |
Could I first of all say that the
Committee on Standards has discussed | 3:11:14 | 3:11:22 | |
the report and authorised me to
write to the Leader of the House | 3:11:22 | 3:11:26 | |
setting up their unanimous views
that the committee welcomes the | 3:11:26 | 3:11:31 | |
report strongly. It supports its
commitment to zero tolerance on | 3:11:31 | 3:11:38 | |
sexual harassment, bullying and
harassment in the Parliamentary | 3:11:38 | 3:11:42 | |
community. Members will have seen...
A member of a table that was signed | 3:11:42 | 3:11:51 | |
by all that people. We were a little
surprised, I have to say not to have | 3:11:51 | 3:12:03 | |
been mentioned in the motion. Could
I say to the Leader of the House, | 3:12:03 | 3:12:14 | |
I'm sure I could say this on behalf
of all members of the committee, I | 3:12:14 | 3:12:18 | |
welcomed what was said earlier in
relation to the Standards Committee | 3:12:18 | 3:12:23 | |
and the Parliamentary commission
being involved in future work. The | 3:12:23 | 3:12:29 | |
House ought to take note that we are
currently performing a long planned | 3:12:29 | 3:12:33 | |
review of the code of conduct which
will be announced in due course. | 3:12:33 | 3:12:38 | |
Obviously the current review will be
informed by the working groups | 3:12:38 | 3:12:41 | |
report. As members have said, the
committee is unique in that it | 3:12:41 | 3:12:50 | |
contains lay members. Can I just
react to one or two exchanges that | 3:12:50 | 3:12:58 | |
have taken place? It is true to say
that the lay members are not allowed | 3:12:58 | 3:13:01 | |
to vote. It was the wish of this
House. My understanding is that this | 3:13:01 | 3:13:12 | |
House did not want to bring the law
inside this House and its | 3:13:12 | 3:13:17 | |
committees. The honourable member
for North Essex are talking about | 3:13:17 | 3:13:23 | |
printing the law and peered that
would be a big step as I understand | 3:13:23 | 3:13:27 | |
it. I'll get you in a minute. The
reason that the lay members have not | 3:13:27 | 3:13:32 | |
been involved is because I
understood we were advised that we | 3:13:32 | 3:13:35 | |
could not take them on without
breaking the law into the committee | 3:13:35 | 3:13:40 | |
system. I still think if we are
going to legislate in any state,... | 3:13:40 | 3:13:44 | |
I'm going to give way, but just let
me say this. I don't understand that | 3:13:44 | 3:13:50 | |
Casey talked about there. About the
judge taking a hard line on the case | 3:13:50 | 3:13:56 | |
and what the committee did. We don't
get involved in taking our | 3:13:56 | 3:14:01 | |
judgements in terms of the law. The
law is a completely different | 3:14:01 | 3:14:04 | |
process. From time to time, we will
send members there if it is felt | 3:14:04 | 3:14:08 | |
that it is a matter for the law. I
will give way. I am grateful to the | 3:14:08 | 3:14:15 | |
honourable gentleman for giving way.
I'm not going to name the case I was | 3:14:15 | 3:14:21 | |
referring to because it is too
tiresome. It was a case where the | 3:14:21 | 3:14:25 | |
committee adjudicated on someone who
then tried to make the same case in | 3:14:25 | 3:14:29 | |
a court of law under a completely
separate jurisdiction, he lost his | 3:14:29 | 3:14:34 | |
case and he was criticised. The
point is, these proposals is not | 3:14:34 | 3:14:44 | |
about bringing the judiciary into
our own proceedings. It is not about | 3:14:44 | 3:14:48 | |
that. It is about the House of
pointing our own legal person to | 3:14:48 | 3:14:53 | |
make these adjudications on behalf
of the House, on behalf of this | 3:14:53 | 3:14:56 | |
committee so that he has a far more
unimpeachable judgement handed to | 3:14:56 | 3:15:01 | |
his committee on which to act then
what he is compelled to work with at | 3:15:01 | 3:15:06 | |
the moment. I think I know the case
with the honourable member talks | 3:15:06 | 3:15:12 | |
about now. He did not agree with
what happened with him and he went | 3:15:12 | 3:15:15 | |
to the courts and got nowhere with
it. In that respective if it's a | 3:15:15 | 3:15:20 | |
case that I'm thinking about, the
court agrees with what the committee | 3:15:20 | 3:15:24 | |
had said. Anyway, the current system
is a series of merely reactive | 3:15:24 | 3:15:33 | |
measures. Initially this scandal in
the 1990s. It was arguably skewed | 3:15:33 | 3:15:46 | |
too much towards the issues of
financial impropriety. Important as | 3:15:46 | 3:15:52 | |
they are. It neglects other aspects
of members's conduct in their | 3:15:52 | 3:15:57 | |
behaviour towards other people.
Would he consider financial | 3:15:57 | 3:16:06 | |
impropriety, but the challenge that
we face moving forward in for | 3:16:06 | 3:16:10 | |
finding the balance between the
personal life of members and when | 3:16:10 | 3:16:14 | |
actually conducting their
Parliamentary duties, particularly | 3:16:14 | 3:16:17 | |
in relation to sexual harassment.
Does he foresee any questions about | 3:16:17 | 3:16:20 | |
that and the way we implement
policies? I think that is the issue | 3:16:20 | 3:16:25 | |
that has to be looked at. I think
the honourable member was there when | 3:16:25 | 3:16:28 | |
I gave evidence. It was around
October of last year that this House | 3:16:28 | 3:16:34 | |
will have to come to a decision on
what is a personal and private | 3:16:34 | 3:16:39 | |
activity and what is not. That is
something that you may be asked to | 3:16:39 | 3:16:43 | |
do in the coming months. Over the
years, the independent cylinders | 3:16:43 | 3:16:50 | |
commission has done its best to try
to address the imbalance and look at | 3:16:50 | 3:16:55 | |
ways to update the current coat of
paint -- current code of conduct. | 3:16:55 | 3:17:05 | |
The House in the past resisted
attempts to incorporate some of | 3:17:05 | 3:17:08 | |
these changes. But I am glad that
the working groups report has now | 3:17:08 | 3:17:13 | |
given fresh impetus to developing a
new comprehensive system of | 3:17:13 | 3:17:16 | |
standards and behaviours. The
committee contains a pool of | 3:17:16 | 3:17:22 | |
expertise on the part of collected
and lay members which we believe | 3:17:22 | 3:17:26 | |
will be of real value for developing
the new process. We are keen to be | 3:17:26 | 3:17:30 | |
in the system and are in the process
of setting up a meeting with the | 3:17:30 | 3:17:34 | |
Leader of the House to discuss how
we can help. I understand that is | 3:17:34 | 3:17:37 | |
now in the diary, I am pleased to
say. I comment as is inevitable with | 3:17:37 | 3:17:45 | |
such ambitious and far-reaching
proposes, there are a number of | 3:17:45 | 3:17:48 | |
challenges concerning details on
process as well as some issues of | 3:17:48 | 3:17:52 | |
principle which will need to be
addressed as part of the | 3:17:52 | 3:17:55 | |
implementation. My letter sent out
what these are so I will not detain | 3:17:55 | 3:18:00 | |
the House long and summarising them.
We will need to consider how the new | 3:18:00 | 3:18:05 | |
arrangements will work alongside the
existing system. It is crystal that | 3:18:05 | 3:18:09 | |
the new system should be seen to
operate fairly and impartially, due | 3:18:09 | 3:18:14 | |
process is important because it
secures the rights of everyone | 3:18:14 | 3:18:18 | |
involved. One proposal in the report
might proceed in parallel will | 3:18:18 | 3:18:24 | |
police inquiries. This would
represent a clear breach with the | 3:18:24 | 3:18:28 | |
current existing practise which is
set out in a memorandum of | 3:18:28 | 3:18:31 | |
understanding between the committee,
the commissioner and the | 3:18:31 | 3:18:34 | |
Metropolitan Police. And this will
require careful consideration. Also, | 3:18:34 | 3:18:38 | |
the implications of the report
proposals of other anomalies. One of | 3:18:38 | 3:18:48 | |
these is for future discussion. The
six work stream that the Leader of | 3:18:48 | 3:18:53 | |
the House mentioned is going to be
an area that the committee and the | 3:18:53 | 3:18:56 | |
Commissioner are likely to be
involved in. Today I simply want to | 3:18:56 | 3:19:02 | |
express the committee's support for
what is trying to be achieved. And | 3:19:02 | 3:19:06 | |
as for the House that my colleagues
and I and the Commissioner are | 3:19:06 | 3:19:09 | |
committed to working closely with
this group to turn the new system | 3:19:09 | 3:19:13 | |
into a reality as soon as possible.
Could I just finished on this? There | 3:19:13 | 3:19:19 | |
was comment about the lay members
earlier not having a vote in the | 3:19:19 | 3:19:23 | |
committee. It is many years since
there has been a vote in the | 3:19:23 | 3:19:27 | |
committee. We work on the basis of
getting an agreement by all people | 3:19:27 | 3:19:32 | |
in there. But each one of those
seven lay members of the committee | 3:19:32 | 3:19:36 | |
are asked when we create a report if
they have got anything they want to | 3:19:36 | 3:19:42 | |
put down outside of what the report
has come to. That has never happened | 3:19:42 | 3:19:47 | |
yet. They have far more power each
one individually then the seven | 3:19:47 | 3:19:51 | |
elected members have together. And I
hope the House begins to understand | 3:19:51 | 3:19:55 | |
that and stop repeating some of
these remarks that this is a | 3:19:55 | 3:20:00 | |
committee that is murky one
another's homework. It is not. It is | 3:20:00 | 3:20:04 | |
a committee was lay members, we
should be looking at having lay | 3:20:04 | 3:20:07 | |
members on other committees as well.
I have argued for this for many | 3:20:07 | 3:20:11 | |
years before we actually got it. I
served on another council as a lay | 3:20:11 | 3:20:17 | |
member overseeing doctors and
medical professionals. And we should | 3:20:17 | 3:20:23 | |
not be afraid to do that. It is
independent, notwithstanding the | 3:20:23 | 3:20:27 | |
absence of a vote. The question is
that the amendment be made. Thank | 3:20:27 | 3:20:37 | |
you. It is a great privilege and
pleasure to contribute to this | 3:20:37 | 3:20:42 | |
debate to follow the right
honourable gentleman. And all the | 3:20:42 | 3:20:46 | |
contrary the other contributions
that have been made. I have some | 3:20:46 | 3:20:51 | |
short points. I am very lucky to be
elected to record I've are | 3:20:51 | 3:20:58 | |
interested in this debate. This year
women entering into Parliament is | 3:20:58 | 3:21:01 | |
something we want to support and see
more of. I pay tribute to this for | 3:21:01 | 3:21:05 | |
my honourable friend. Also I know
that there are many champions of | 3:21:05 | 3:21:16 | |
women on all sides of the House. Of
course the Member for North Mercer | 3:21:16 | 3:21:23 | |
talked about these issues. I think
that we ought to be proud that we | 3:21:23 | 3:21:30 | |
have a number of incredibly
competent women in this House. I see | 3:21:30 | 3:21:34 | |
them sitting on all sides and are
more than capable of holding their | 3:21:34 | 3:21:38 | |
own despite the patriarchy. It is
important that we signal to other | 3:21:38 | 3:21:42 | |
people who wish to enter this plays
that they are going to be welcomed | 3:21:42 | 3:21:44 | |
when they get here. So, I just want
to touch on the issue of culture. | 3:21:44 | 3:21:51 | |
And my own experience is also from
running my own business. I don't | 3:21:51 | 3:21:55 | |
come from an exotic or privilege
background. I got there from hard | 3:21:55 | 3:21:59 | |
work. By experiencing many failures
and setbacks. It is an misconception | 3:21:59 | 3:22:07 | |
that people who have a business are
somehow privilege. I did learn about | 3:22:07 | 3:22:12 | |
managing teams. And the one thing
that I did learn from a mentor is | 3:22:12 | 3:22:16 | |
that culture eats strategy for
practise. It is about the culture. | 3:22:16 | 3:22:20 | |
It is about the leadership. You can
have as many reports or practises or | 3:22:20 | 3:22:25 | |
training as you want. If that is not
followed through, if that is not | 3:22:25 | 3:22:30 | |
lived and breathed, by deeds not
words, I'm afraid we might as well | 3:22:30 | 3:22:34 | |
all give up go home. I think that
what we have seen is a fantastic | 3:22:34 | 3:22:39 | |
response to this issue and I do pay
to breathe -- I do pay tribute to | 3:22:39 | 3:22:46 | |
everyone who has played their part.
This is a issue that has gone on for | 3:22:46 | 3:22:50 | |
such a long time. It is long
overdue. The bull has been taken by | 3:22:50 | 3:22:55 | |
the horns and I really do hope it
came go up the very highest level of | 3:22:55 | 3:23:01 | |
all political leaders on all sides
of this House. All of us need to | 3:23:01 | 3:23:05 | |
live and breathe it. The reason why
it is so important is because our | 3:23:05 | 3:23:08 | |
staff are very vulnerable. They are
relatively speaking, maybe not all | 3:23:08 | 3:23:13 | |
of them, some of them are quite
young. They don't come from a lot of | 3:23:13 | 3:23:19 | |
experiences of other workplaces. For
some of them it is the first place | 3:23:19 | 3:23:22 | |
they have actually worked. If you
have a young woman, on an older man | 3:23:22 | 3:23:28 | |
or... There is an issue of the
gender imbalance here that is very | 3:23:28 | 3:23:33 | |
sensitive issue. I think that can be
very difficult for a young woman or | 3:23:33 | 3:23:37 | |
a young man in their first job to
tackle that and to have the | 3:23:37 | 3:23:42 | |
confidence to raise that and to know
that it will be taken seriously. I | 3:23:42 | 3:23:47 | |
really do think the consideration
that has been placed on this point. | 3:23:47 | 3:23:52 | |
It goes back to the root of the
issue. The root of the issue is | 3:23:52 | 3:23:55 | |
about power and the abuse of power.
How easily that can be very | 3:23:55 | 3:24:00 | |
detrimental for young people, for
honourable people who are vulnerable | 3:24:00 | 3:24:04 | |
because they are working in this
unique workplace and supporting us | 3:24:04 | 3:24:07 | |
in our challenging duties. I think
we have reduced the issue of | 3:24:07 | 3:24:15 | |
leadership. That is absolutely
critical and essential. I hope we | 3:24:15 | 3:24:20 | |
can all do our part by holding our
colleagues to account in however we | 3:24:20 | 3:24:25 | |
do that. I think this issue of
training needs to be taken forward. | 3:24:25 | 3:24:29 | |
It is not enough to just train once.
I have the great delight of actually | 3:24:29 | 3:24:36 | |
having 2 degrees I worked in HR for
many years and like my honourable | 3:24:36 | 3:24:41 | |
friend, I had a lot of training. I
was asked to the person giving the | 3:24:41 | 3:24:46 | |
training. And I recognise it is one
thing to | 3:24:46 | 3:25:01 | |
Change is difficult organisational
change is really, really hard, to | 3:25:01 | 3:25:05 | |
make it stick. We need to have close
attention to that, we need to be | 3:25:05 | 3:25:10 | |
united in our determination to drive
this through for the benefit of all | 3:25:10 | 3:25:13 | |
the people who work here and all the
people looking at us to be examples. | 3:25:13 | 3:25:18 | |
I end by thanking very much again
for the work that has been done and | 3:25:18 | 3:25:23 | |
hope it'll lead to a change. Jo
Swinson. It's a delight to follow | 3:25:23 | 3:25:28 | |
the honourable member for Redditch,
sounds like she's got some excellent | 3:25:28 | 3:25:32 | |
skills and perspectives that will be
important in the consultation as we | 3:25:32 | 3:25:35 | |
go forward about how to make this
organisational culture change stick. | 3:25:35 | 3:25:39 | |
I very much welcome the motion and
the debate today is a member of the | 3:25:39 | 3:25:44 | |
working group. As well as some
specific comments on what we put in | 3:25:44 | 3:25:48 | |
the report I also wanted to talk
about the wider context that we are | 3:25:48 | 3:25:52 | |
facing here because we've come at
this issue in Parliament from the | 3:25:52 | 3:25:57 | |
events of the end of last year, but
that followed hot on the heels of | 3:25:57 | 3:26:01 | |
the Weinstein scandal, we've had in
recent weeks the issues in the | 3:26:01 | 3:26:05 | |
charity sector. An important point
for us to remember is, this is not a | 3:26:05 | 3:26:09 | |
problem in any one specific
industry, this is a problem that is | 3:26:09 | 3:26:13 | |
endemic across society, across every
sector. And therefore it's important | 3:26:13 | 3:26:18 | |
we get our whole house in order with
our own procedures, but we also need | 3:26:18 | 3:26:23 | |
to understand that wider perspective
on it and that wider societal | 3:26:23 | 3:26:27 | |
cultural change that as parliament
we have a goal in leading. That is | 3:26:27 | 3:26:31 | |
why it's vital what we do is of an
excellent quality, and it can act as | 3:26:31 | 3:26:39 | |
a beacon to other organisations and
institutions that are trying to | 3:26:39 | 3:26:42 | |
grapple with similar issues. For all
that we've seen these cases in | 3:26:42 | 3:26:49 | |
politics hit the headlines, I'm
painfully aware of how many women | 3:26:49 | 3:26:54 | |
are in positions of so much less
power than those connected to this | 3:26:54 | 3:26:58 | |
place, where this doesn't even hit
the headlines, women working low | 3:26:58 | 3:27:02 | |
paid jobs. We saw the briefing for
the young woman's trust saying three | 3:27:02 | 3:27:05 | |
in ten young women have experienced
sexual harassment at work. This is | 3:27:05 | 3:27:11 | |
something happening all over the
country. The working group was | 3:27:11 | 3:27:16 | |
generally positive, and occasionally
frustrating experience, but partly | 3:27:16 | 3:27:19 | |
because we were grappling with
difficult issues. I'd like to praise | 3:27:19 | 3:27:22 | |
the contribution of the staff,
particularly the three | 3:27:22 | 3:27:26 | |
representatives of staff who work
for members in the various parties, | 3:27:26 | 3:27:30 | |
and also the experts that advise the
group. I for one learned a huge | 3:27:30 | 3:27:34 | |
amount from listening to what they
had to offer and in part in terms of | 3:27:34 | 3:27:40 | |
their wisdom. These issues are not
easy to deal with, we all say we | 3:27:40 | 3:27:44 | |
want to deal with this and get it
right but there are sensitive issues | 3:27:44 | 3:27:47 | |
to work through. The Forest of Dean
number talked about the issue of | 3:27:47 | 3:27:53 | |
confidentiality, on the one hand if
names are published that might | 3:27:53 | 3:27:58 | |
encourage others to come forward you
might spot more patterns, but at the | 3:27:58 | 3:28:01 | |
same time, it might discourage
people from coming forward because | 3:28:01 | 3:28:05 | |
of fear their own anonymity will be
breached. We had a lot of | 3:28:05 | 3:28:10 | |
discussions about how you work
through their systems, how you deal | 3:28:10 | 3:28:14 | |
with historical allegations, how you
deal with people who have gone | 3:28:14 | 3:28:16 | |
through a different process and are
very upset with how that went. There | 3:28:16 | 3:28:20 | |
are no easy answers to some of
these. The issue of the interplay | 3:28:20 | 3:28:26 | |
with the criminal justice system we
also discussed at length and while | 3:28:26 | 3:28:29 | |
we want to make sure support is
there for people who want to take a | 3:28:29 | 3:28:34 | |
criminal conviction weather has been
sexual assault, we recognised from | 3:28:34 | 3:28:38 | |
the survey we did that a tiny
proportion of people said in no | 3:28:38 | 3:28:41 | |
circumstances would they feel
comfortable to go to the police, I | 3:28:41 | 3:28:45 | |
think it was 2%. We looked clearly
at how we could provide people with | 3:28:45 | 3:28:49 | |
the support if they wanted to do
that, but also to give them control | 3:28:49 | 3:28:52 | |
so if they wanted this to be pursued
as a grievance, a case of | 3:28:52 | 3:28:57 | |
professional misconduct, it could be
dealt with as unemployment issue | 3:28:57 | 3:29:00 | |
rather than necessarily them being
forced to have faith in the criminal | 3:29:00 | 3:29:04 | |
justice system, which they may not
do. That is why because this is not | 3:29:04 | 3:29:09 | |
easy the review clauses we suggested
are so essential. What we're | 3:29:09 | 3:29:13 | |
proposing today I am very confident
will make things much better. I'm | 3:29:13 | 3:29:19 | |
also confident it won't be perfect
and will only improve if we can | 3:29:19 | 3:29:23 | |
review it regularly, learn from what
works well, but there may well be | 3:29:23 | 3:29:26 | |
cases where it doesn't work well and
we need to be able to make sure we | 3:29:26 | 3:29:29 | |
can take those lessons on board and
not be overly defensive about that. | 3:29:29 | 3:29:33 | |
I also wanted to touch on the issue
of gender. Harassment, bullying, | 3:29:33 | 3:29:40 | |
sexual harassment happens to men as
well as women but we know from the | 3:29:40 | 3:29:43 | |
server it happens more to women. The
Right Honourable member for | 3:29:43 | 3:29:50 | |
harrowing of Essex said, how did we
let this happen? This is an | 3:29:50 | 3:29:57 | |
institution that was designed by
men, built for men, and for the | 3:29:57 | 3:30:01 | |
large part of its existence has been
run by men and almost exclusively | 3:30:01 | 3:30:06 | |
men. And therefore the place of
women within the institution, in | 3:30:06 | 3:30:12 | |
this chamber itself, or within the
stuff that support the work we do, | 3:30:12 | 3:30:16 | |
is not necessarily been viewed on an
equal basis. I think it's | 3:30:16 | 3:30:22 | |
interesting if we speak to women in
Parliament, we know, we all have | 3:30:22 | 3:30:25 | |
these experiences of being talked
over in meetings. Being questioned | 3:30:25 | 3:30:29 | |
about whether you are allowed to be
somewhere. Whether you've got the | 3:30:29 | 3:30:33 | |
right to be on the terrace or in a
particular lift during a division, | 3:30:33 | 3:30:37 | |
whether or not you are a researcher
or clean instead of a member of | 3:30:37 | 3:30:40 | |
Parliament. -- cleaner. The way
women journalists, bravely, reported | 3:30:40 | 3:30:47 | |
somebody said to her here comes the
tarty. How many other women | 3:30:47 | 3:30:52 | |
journalists have had similar
experiences and worse? In terms of | 3:30:52 | 3:30:56 | |
the way they've been treated by
people in this place. I remember | 3:30:56 | 3:30:58 | |
when I was a minister learning about
a former minister from the House of | 3:30:58 | 3:31:02 | |
Lords who had basically engaged with
his female, with his male private | 3:31:02 | 3:31:07 | |
office staff, but wouldn't speak to
the female private office staff or | 3:31:07 | 3:31:10 | |
take them seriously because they
happen to be women, even if they | 3:31:10 | 3:31:14 | |
were more senior. These things do
happen, we know these things happen. | 3:31:14 | 3:31:17 | |
I was really struck by the young
woman's trust briefing that said 89% | 3:31:17 | 3:31:23 | |
of women MPs and 58% of men MPs say
sexism still exists in Parliament. | 3:31:23 | 3:31:29 | |
That golf is significant, almost all
women now say there are still | 3:31:29 | 3:31:36 | |
instances of sexism but just over
half of men recognise that is the | 3:31:36 | 3:31:39 | |
case and that golf is part of the
problem we have and part of the | 3:31:39 | 3:31:42 | |
complacency that still exists. We
are only talking about gender, but | 3:31:42 | 3:31:48 | |
race, LGB PT, socioeconomic, all
these barriers. -- LGBT. It's not | 3:31:48 | 3:31:55 | |
every man that does this, but this
kind of behaviour is present in | 3:31:55 | 3:31:59 | |
every single political party and we
all experience it and see it from | 3:31:59 | 3:32:02 | |
time to time. It's not just a few
bad apples, it's cultural. In fact | 3:32:02 | 3:32:07 | |
women as well, we'll have the
capacity to make these assumptions, | 3:32:07 | 3:32:11 | |
to make thoughtless comments. When
we're somebody with a position of | 3:32:11 | 3:32:14 | |
power, those comments have so much
more force, so we have an extra | 3:32:14 | 3:32:18 | |
responsibility to be aware of this.
I would just say to all members of | 3:32:18 | 3:32:22 | |
the house, I say it myself as well,
often when we see these things | 3:32:22 | 3:32:26 | |
happen they are tolerated or
somebody rolled their eyes or they | 3:32:26 | 3:32:29 | |
are embarrassed, but it's not always
called out, because it might feel | 3:32:29 | 3:32:33 | |
uncomfortable or inconvenient or
it's easier not to rock the boat. | 3:32:33 | 3:32:36 | |
Part of what we need to do is to be
challenging and tackle that culture | 3:32:36 | 3:32:39 | |
through the work we do in this
place. In terms of specific issues | 3:32:39 | 3:32:44 | |
on the report I want to touch on a
couple very briefly. On the | 3:32:44 | 3:32:49 | |
behaviour code, this will be the
foundation of what we do, and the | 3:32:49 | 3:32:52 | |
widest possible involvement of
members of staff of those who are | 3:32:52 | 3:32:56 | |
not in those categories is vital to
make sure it is built on that shared | 3:32:56 | 3:32:59 | |
sense of values and it has,
therefore, the resonance we need it | 3:32:59 | 3:33:03 | |
to have, that people really buy into
it. There has been discussion about | 3:33:03 | 3:33:07 | |
training. I do think it's essential.
Certainly anyone employed, it should | 3:33:07 | 3:33:12 | |
be part of what they have to do in
order to be able to access funds | 3:33:12 | 3:33:16 | |
from trips to pay somebody. But also
on harassment and the issue of | 3:33:16 | 3:33:22 | |
content. When I did an interview on
the day of the release of this | 3:33:22 | 3:33:25 | |
report, I was challenged by John
Humphrys on the today programme. | 3:33:25 | 3:33:29 | |
Surely MPs know what is appropriate
behaviour. You know, if that were | 3:33:29 | 3:33:33 | |
universally the case we wouldn't be
in this situation in the first | 3:33:33 | 3:33:36 | |
place. And I think that there is no
room for complacency. The #MeToo | 3:33:36 | 3:33:46 | |
movement shows us that. We need
relationship and sex education in | 3:33:46 | 3:33:52 | |
schools for all peoples, I'm
dismayed at the government rolling | 3:33:52 | 3:33:56 | |
back on that. I'll give way to the
Right Honourable gentleman. Such a | 3:33:56 | 3:33:59 | |
good speak, particular the point
about assumptions because if you | 3:33:59 | 3:34:04 | |
want to change culture, everyone has
to stop making assumptions about | 3:34:04 | 3:34:08 | |
your own beliefs and what other
people's beliefs are. You need to | 3:34:08 | 3:34:11 | |
talk about that and get it into the
open without judgment. The other | 3:34:11 | 3:34:15 | |
thing I would agree with her
wholeheartedly on is about training | 3:34:15 | 3:34:20 | |
for MPs who employ staff. Ultimately
if you haven't been through a basic | 3:34:20 | 3:34:24 | |
training package, well then why
should the taxpayer allow you to | 3:34:24 | 3:34:27 | |
employ your own staff? I would
certainly welcome his support for | 3:34:27 | 3:34:32 | |
those points. I would say some of
what we experience in these issues | 3:34:32 | 3:34:37 | |
of harassment, some are undoubtedly
deliberate, with the intent to do | 3:34:37 | 3:34:42 | |
what is being done, entirely with
knowledge, but I think some of it is | 3:34:42 | 3:34:46 | |
also inadvertent. It is to tackle
that complacency that the training | 3:34:46 | 3:34:50 | |
is so essential. There will be
people who don't understand the | 3:34:50 | 3:34:53 | |
impact of all of the words that they
use. I attended a recent session on | 3:34:53 | 3:34:58 | |
anti-Semitism which was a
fascinating session by the Holocaust | 3:34:58 | 3:35:02 | |
educational trust. I think the more
we can listen and learn to the | 3:35:02 | 3:35:06 | |
experience of others, it helps us to
engage in a more mature weight on | 3:35:06 | 3:35:09 | |
these issues. That cultural change
is important. Sarah Childs is the | 3:35:09 | 3:35:14 | |
member for Perth and North
Perthshire, she recommended ways we | 3:35:14 | 3:35:21 | |
could change the culture and gave
evidence and talked about | 3:35:21 | 3:35:25 | |
challenging the exceptionalism of
MPs, that we think we're in a unique | 3:35:25 | 3:35:28 | |
scenario. Yes, there are many
elements of our job that are unusual | 3:35:28 | 3:35:31 | |
but it should be some kind of excuse
for not having basic professional | 3:35:31 | 3:35:35 | |
standards whether in terms of good
implement relationships, which if we | 3:35:35 | 3:35:39 | |
had good employment practice that
would deal with large part of the | 3:35:39 | 3:35:43 | |
problems we are experiencing here,
not entirely, but a large part. Or | 3:35:43 | 3:35:47 | |
whether it's evenly match your
approach to late-night sittings as | 3:35:47 | 3:35:50 | |
if it's a badge of pride. It's the
equivalent of having your jacket on | 3:35:50 | 3:35:54 | |
the back of the chair in the office.
It's not how modern are effective. I | 3:35:54 | 3:36:02 | |
also agree with the member for
Brighton Pavilion that we need to do | 3:36:02 | 3:36:05 | |
it as fast as possible, extend the
behaviour code to the behaviour of | 3:36:05 | 3:36:09 | |
members of Parliament and staff of
Parliament. Wherever they are. When | 3:36:09 | 3:36:13 | |
they are in that role, carrying out
duties, whether in the constituency, | 3:36:13 | 3:36:17 | |
office or at some event or here in
Parliament. I know others want to | 3:36:17 | 3:36:22 | |
speak so in conclusion the problems
we are facing are not unique to | 3:36:22 | 3:36:25 | |
Parliament but we all have a part to
play in dealing with them. This | 3:36:25 | 3:36:28 | |
motion today and this report is an
important first step, it will lead | 3:36:28 | 3:36:33 | |
to a real improvement and hopefully
help us to get our own house in | 3:36:33 | 3:36:35 | |
order. Jess Phillips. I like
everybody else want to commend the | 3:36:35 | 3:36:42 | |
work done by the leader, Shadow
leader and everybody on the working | 3:36:42 | 3:36:46 | |
group. 100 hours sounds... I would
definitely have lost the will to | 3:36:46 | 3:36:51 | |
live halfway through I think in the
negotiations. I think everybody | 3:36:51 | 3:36:54 | |
worked really, really hard. I think
it has been done relatively quickly | 3:36:54 | 3:37:00 | |
for this place. I mean, it's the
quickest thing I've known go through | 3:37:00 | 3:37:03 | |
since I've been here. There are just
a few points I wanted to raise. | 3:37:03 | 3:37:10 | |
Slight concerns about how we might
take this forward. By and large I | 3:37:10 | 3:37:14 | |
think it is brilliant, where there
are not often easy answers to | 3:37:14 | 3:37:19 | |
anonymity, privacy, this isn't easy.
People who are outside of this | 3:37:19 | 3:37:24 | |
building can say these things are
easy but when you're actually here | 3:37:24 | 3:37:28 | |
it is quite different. I also want
to place on record, we talk about | 3:37:28 | 3:37:32 | |
the events of last November and this
being the reason we are all here, I | 3:37:32 | 3:37:37 | |
want to say thank you to Lex Baillie
and Kate Maltby... And others, who | 3:37:37 | 3:37:48 | |
all have the guts to come forward
and say people who were powerful had | 3:37:48 | 3:37:55 | |
not always behaved the best with
them and they deserve huge praise | 3:37:55 | 3:37:59 | |
and merit. One of my concerns around
the issue of representation during | 3:37:59 | 3:38:08 | |
any process in the sexual harassment
and leader of the house said both | 3:38:08 | 3:38:15 | |
parties would be entitled to
representation, which is absolutely | 3:38:15 | 3:38:17 | |
as it should be. Fair in every
system in the land, whether trade | 3:38:17 | 3:38:25 | |
union representation union
representation. I do have a concern | 3:38:25 | 3:38:29 | |
about how we will make sure in this
place there is an equality of arms | 3:38:29 | 3:38:33 | |
in that representation, because if
you are a case worker working in one | 3:38:33 | 3:38:37 | |
of our offices and somebody sexually
harasses you and the person who's | 3:38:37 | 3:38:42 | |
actually you is a very wealthy peer
for example, I worry that one person | 3:38:42 | 3:38:50 | |
has a really good representation and
can frighten people with legal | 3:38:50 | 3:38:55 | |
letters. I've received some myself
in these past few months. That | 3:38:55 | 3:39:00 | |
worries me greatly, that there will
be an unfair imbalance. If the | 3:39:00 | 3:39:08 | |
Weinstein issue teaches us anything,
it's that rich men know how to use | 3:39:08 | 3:39:13 | |
the law to get away with murder. And
that, I think, we need to make sure | 3:39:13 | 3:39:21 | |
we are addressing that all the way
through this process. Also I have | 3:39:21 | 3:39:25 | |
one slight issue about the
independence of MPs being | 3:39:25 | 3:39:29 | |
decision-makers. Not with regards to
their marking their own homework, | 3:39:29 | 3:39:33 | |
I'm satisfied, I didn't know
anything about the numbers till | 3:39:33 | 3:39:35 | |
today. I'm satisfied actually with
the explanations I've heard. In the | 3:39:35 | 3:39:41 | |
report one of the decision-making
lines is, if a member of our staff | 3:39:41 | 3:39:49 | |
perpetrate sexual harassment or
bullying and harassment, that we are | 3:39:49 | 3:39:54 | |
one of the decision-makers. So I as
the employer would be the | 3:39:54 | 3:39:57 | |
decision-making. It seems completely
acceptable, that's what it would be | 3:39:57 | 3:40:00 | |
like in the world, the member for
Forest of Dean it's the same | 3:40:00 | 3:40:07 | |
standard as their employer. Except
in this place we are in close | 3:40:07 | 3:40:11 | |
quarters with our employees, I
employ only one person here. She is | 3:40:11 | 3:40:16 | |
very, very close to me and I feel
incredible loyalty towards her. I | 3:40:16 | 3:40:22 | |
walk around this building and see
people's children who are members of | 3:40:22 | 3:40:28 | |
Parliament who work in this
building. People's partners work in | 3:40:28 | 3:40:31 | |
here, people's families. I'm not
entirely sure that a member of | 3:40:31 | 3:40:37 | |
Parliament could be completely and
utterly without bias in a case | 3:40:37 | 3:40:42 | |
against a member of their staff. And
I think that definitely needs to be | 3:40:42 | 3:40:46 | |
looked into, because... I'll gladly
give way. | 3:40:46 | 3:40:53 | |
I hope to be able to assure reassure
her. We didn't come up against this | 3:40:53 | 3:41:00 | |
as she rightly says, there are some
very close, unusually close | 3:41:00 | 3:41:04 | |
relationships in this place. But
when there is a finding that there | 3:41:04 | 3:41:09 | |
is something against in the way of
an... And a member fails to take | 3:41:09 | 3:41:15 | |
action, it is been up on that
claimant to take the MP. I hope that | 3:41:15 | 3:41:24 | |
reassures you. That does reassure me
to some degree. My only concern is | 3:41:24 | 3:41:34 | |
that complainant having to do an
awful lot of work in making sure | 3:41:34 | 3:41:42 | |
that they are supported all the way
through that. I get going back to | 3:41:42 | 3:41:45 | |
the equality of arms to make sure
that... We are much more hopeful | 3:41:45 | 3:41:51 | |
than most people and much more
frightening than most people. -- we | 3:41:51 | 3:41:55 | |
are much more powerful than most
people. I'd like to think that I | 3:41:55 | 3:42:03 | |
could recognise that and try to
employ it with appropriateness. The | 3:42:03 | 3:42:09 | |
truth is, I still worry that there
will be a power imbalance. Although | 3:42:09 | 3:42:15 | |
I think the Working Group has done
everything that they could possibly | 3:42:15 | 3:42:19 | |
to find -- to do a very difficult
thing. I will finish by doing | 3:42:19 | 3:42:28 | |
just... All. I mean, I will give
way. I am grateful to the honourable | 3:42:28 | 3:42:39 | |
Lady because I think she rightly
points to the necessity that MPs as | 3:42:39 | 3:42:46 | |
employers because we are public
figures must be held to a much | 3:42:46 | 3:42:49 | |
higher standard than we would expect
of an ordinary small businessman. We | 3:42:49 | 3:42:57 | |
are accountable and we are expected
to be accountable and we Ards | 3:42:57 | 3:43:01 | |
leaders and example setters. And I
think the report addresses that and | 3:43:01 | 3:43:09 | |
her concern. There is going to be HR
support from outside for the staff | 3:43:09 | 3:43:13 | |
of members of Parliament so they get
the support of counselling they need | 3:43:13 | 3:43:17 | |
to take a complaint against their
employer in a way that has not | 3:43:17 | 3:43:21 | |
existed before. I totally recognise
that and as I say, not even broadly, | 3:43:21 | 3:43:28 | |
I am very happy with the progress
that has been made and I personally | 3:43:28 | 3:43:32 | |
felt very listened to. I think the
shadow leader for that. The system | 3:43:32 | 3:43:42 | |
will need to be tested as we go
through it. And lots of people have | 3:43:42 | 3:43:47 | |
talked about review. It will be
strength tested by those who go | 3:43:47 | 3:43:52 | |
through it. What we have to make
sure in this place is that we don't | 3:43:52 | 3:43:56 | |
do is when the first case comes and
and it is not as it should've been, | 3:43:56 | 3:44:03 | |
that we close ranks with each other
and that certainly I will always | 3:44:03 | 3:44:08 | |
commit to being the person who
closes ranks with the people on the | 3:44:08 | 3:44:13 | |
outside. So I commend the report.
Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. It | 3:44:13 | 3:44:23 | |
feels almost like Christmas is upon
us. Nearly all men can stand | 3:44:23 | 3:44:28 | |
adversity, but if you want to test a
man's's character, give him power. | 3:44:28 | 3:44:33 | |
That is something that Abraham
Lincoln said. What we have been | 3:44:33 | 3:44:35 | |
talking about today is what happens
when it does tend to be mainly men | 3:44:35 | 3:44:41 | |
have power and how power can be
missed misused. I want to pay | 3:44:41 | 3:44:48 | |
tribute to all those people who work
for a hundred hours for working at | 3:44:48 | 3:44:52 | |
this issue through that vein and
recognising it is about many | 3:44:52 | 3:44:55 | |
different ways that power can be
abuse. This place is powerful and | 3:44:55 | 3:44:59 | |
full powerful people. I took part in
an assembly on sexual harassment. | 3:44:59 | 3:45:07 | |
And it is a very sobering moment
when you think what to tell young | 3:45:07 | 3:45:11 | |
women of our country about sexual
harassment now in 2018 in the | 3:45:11 | 3:45:16 | |
environment of the MeToo Movement
and the environment of Harvey | 3:45:16 | 3:45:21 | |
Weinstein and the environment of
what we have seen and our charity | 3:45:21 | 3:45:24 | |
sector. Each individual is
responsible in terms of this motion | 3:45:24 | 3:45:29 | |
and what happens next but we know we
have a wider unit. It is not enough | 3:45:29 | 3:45:35 | |
to simply pay lip service and save
this should not be happening. It is | 3:45:35 | 3:45:40 | |
to ask what are we all doing to make
sure that it never happens again. | 3:45:40 | 3:45:44 | |
And the messes that we send out
through Parliament to this work and | 3:45:44 | 3:45:47 | |
we know this work must continue has
wider ramifications because it sets | 3:45:47 | 3:45:51 | |
the bar for other agencies. None of
us can claim that Parliament has | 3:45:51 | 3:45:55 | |
covered itself in glory. We have
been too slow. It is like leaving a | 3:45:55 | 3:46:01 | |
horse to water, instead of
recognising that some of those | 3:46:01 | 3:46:05 | |
donkeys have no place in our
political process. Now is our | 3:46:05 | 3:46:09 | |
opportunity to say that we are going
to make a stand not just Parliament | 3:46:09 | 3:46:13 | |
by a crossed Public life because it
matters to those girls. The freedom | 3:46:13 | 3:46:17 | |
that we would want all those girls
to be able to acknowledge their | 3:46:17 | 3:46:20 | |
potential. In the run-up to it
International Women's Day. I just | 3:46:20 | 3:46:26 | |
want to say four point that I hope
the Leader of the House will take on | 3:46:26 | 3:46:30 | |
board. Bearing in mind that some of
us have been called sheltie feminist | 3:46:30 | 3:46:33 | |
today. First and foremost, the
question about training. I | 3:46:33 | 3:46:41 | |
understand where he is coming from.
We have been inspiring each other in | 3:46:41 | 3:46:47 | |
issues around gender equality and
feminism. Either stand his point | 3:46:47 | 3:46:51 | |
about catching more flies with honey
than vinegar, but it is something | 3:46:51 | 3:46:54 | |
like this that people who are least
resistance are the most likely to | 3:46:54 | 3:46:58 | |
need to change. We cannot simply
keep asking nicely and then | 3:46:58 | 3:47:04 | |
apologising to the people would have
to do with the consequences. That is | 3:47:04 | 3:47:08 | |
why it matters we have six and
relationship education for every | 3:47:08 | 3:47:12 | |
young person in this country. And I
hope we'll all renew our resolve not | 3:47:12 | 3:47:16 | |
to backslide now. That is my second
point to the leader. I think this | 3:47:16 | 3:47:23 | |
does have to fit into this wider
context. We know it is not by | 3:47:23 | 3:47:28 | |
accident that people end up as
pass-holders. How do people get | 3:47:28 | 3:47:35 | |
involved whose matter how do people
get employed? Inevitably it is one | 3:47:35 | 3:47:41 | |
part of the puzzle of the jigsaw
about how to become involved in | 3:47:41 | 3:47:47 | |
public life. I want to pay tribute
today to the women who have come | 3:47:47 | 3:47:49 | |
forward as part of a labour of
campaign and given their stories. It | 3:47:49 | 3:47:54 | |
tells us that we have work to do
within our own political movement. I | 3:47:54 | 3:47:58 | |
think it is across political
parties. This process will only be | 3:47:58 | 3:48:02 | |
as good as the people were coming
into political activism and | 3:48:02 | 3:48:06 | |
political activism will only be as
good for the environment as we | 3:48:06 | 3:48:10 | |
create. How do we fit that in
without broader work about making | 3:48:10 | 3:48:14 | |
sure there is no hiding for those
people who to abuse power. My third | 3:48:14 | 3:48:20 | |
point is what happens when we find
people who behaved inappropriately. | 3:48:20 | 3:48:25 | |
I have been consistently asking
about recall. And I'm so pleased to | 3:48:25 | 3:48:29 | |
see that this is the agenda. I
believe we need to have the sanction | 3:48:29 | 3:48:34 | |
that none of us want to admit to but
know that it needs to be in the | 3:48:34 | 3:48:38 | |
process when someone is found to
have behaved in these ways. We have | 3:48:38 | 3:48:41 | |
heard today about whether standards
will come into it and if there is a | 3:48:41 | 3:48:46 | |
case of taking the initial question
about sections out of the commission | 3:48:46 | 3:48:53 | |
and giving it to a independent
third-party who would then advise us | 3:48:53 | 3:48:57 | |
so we can take out any suggestion of
political favour or fear of the | 3:48:57 | 3:49:01 | |
constant to the consequences. If
recall is the right course of | 3:49:01 | 3:49:06 | |
action, it should be on the table
because the transgression is serious | 3:49:06 | 3:49:10 | |
enough that the local community that
that person represents needs to have | 3:49:10 | 3:49:14 | |
the right to say something. None of
us would want to send one of those | 3:49:14 | 3:49:17 | |
young girls to go and see their Adam
Peaty knowing that that person has | 3:49:17 | 3:49:21 | |
behaved in a way we would not
tolerate in any other workplace. And | 3:49:21 | 3:49:26 | |
the fourth thing I want to say is we
know that this is just another | 3:49:26 | 3:49:31 | |
staging posts. This is the fourth
time that we have debated this. We | 3:49:31 | 3:49:34 | |
know that there is much more work to
do. I want to pledge my support in | 3:49:34 | 3:49:40 | |
keeping going. I fear there are
some, particularly some of his | 3:49:40 | 3:49:44 | |
plays, who may have even been
accused of things who are hoping | 3:49:44 | 3:49:47 | |
that after the title and subsides,
this issue will go away and life | 3:49:47 | 3:49:51 | |
will go back to normal. Let us not
make 2018 like 2017. Let's make 2018 | 3:49:51 | 3:49:59 | |
the point when the fans really did
shift. That means we have to keep | 3:49:59 | 3:50:03 | |
going and see these cases through.
As awkward and difficult as it is. | 3:50:03 | 3:50:09 | |
We all those young women I spoke to
today so much more, but that is at | 3:50:09 | 3:50:13 | |
least something we can promise them.
As one of the members of the Working | 3:50:13 | 3:50:23 | |
Group. I really do wish to
congratulate everyone involved. | 3:50:23 | 3:50:27 | |
Everyone who undertook this timely
long and drawn out and demanding | 3:50:27 | 3:50:30 | |
task. I think it is worth stating
the obvious fax. This process has | 3:50:30 | 3:50:40 | |
come up in cooperation for all the
people who sit in this House and | 3:50:40 | 3:50:44 | |
representatives of people employed
here and trade unions. I want to | 3:50:44 | 3:50:48 | |
commend the many witnesses who spoke
to us and particularly the | 3:50:48 | 3:50:52 | |
specialist adviser of sexual
harassment. I would also like to | 3:50:52 | 3:50:56 | |
commend the Leader of the House for
her patient work. This is a critical | 3:50:56 | 3:51:05 | |
step in transforming Westminster
into a 21st-century workplace. Again | 3:51:05 | 3:51:10 | |
let us take a moment to state an
obvious thing. Consider how | 3:51:10 | 3:51:16 | |
ineffective all of us would be here
without the staff. They balanced the | 3:51:16 | 3:51:23 | |
conflicting demands and enable us to
show composed face to the public. | 3:51:23 | 3:51:34 | |
And the flip side of that is this is
a tiring and pressurised | 3:51:34 | 3:51:38 | |
environment. There is a toxic mix of
power, ambition and vulnerability. | 3:51:38 | 3:51:42 | |
Much of which of course has played
out behind closed doors. Again, the | 3:51:42 | 3:51:50 | |
decentralization of this and any
workplace it is a matter of | 3:51:50 | 3:51:56 | |
equality. I think much of our
discussion is out of fear of where | 3:51:56 | 3:52:03 | |
we draw the lines. The unique nature
of terms of MPs staff who are | 3:52:03 | 3:52:11 | |
employed by MPs directly who could
only go to that an MP or the MP | 3:52:11 | 3:52:21 | |
party. That is why the independent
nature of this policy is so | 3:52:21 | 3:52:24 | |
significant. While of course
political parties must endeavour to | 3:52:24 | 3:52:32 | |
ensure that their policies are fair
without prejudice, the question of | 3:52:32 | 3:52:36 | |
whose interests are best served wall
was remaining in those woods. There | 3:52:36 | 3:52:42 | |
is an amount of work again for my
discussion today I think this is | 3:52:42 | 3:52:48 | |
obvious, that still needs to be
done. Over and above the | 3:52:48 | 3:52:51 | |
recommendations that have been
brought here today. There has been | 3:52:51 | 3:52:55 | |
quite as sophisticated discussion on
this. Another point I would like to | 3:52:55 | 3:53:00 | |
raise, is a matter of how we include
visitors to constituency offices | 3:53:00 | 3:53:06 | |
which needs to be addressed as a
matter of urgency. Also, how to | 3:53:06 | 3:53:11 | |
decide when and where elected
members or to whom the supplied and | 3:53:11 | 3:53:17 | |
their staff are engaged in
Parliamentary duties, be that | 3:53:17 | 3:53:21 | |
hearing once Mr on visits or abroad.
We need clarity on this to ensure | 3:53:21 | 3:53:29 | |
fairness. This will of course be a
semi judicial process. There has | 3:53:29 | 3:53:41 | |
been some discussion, I would draw
attention to the fact that this | 3:53:41 | 3:53:48 | |
report does anticipate changes in
clues and changes to the voting | 3:53:48 | 3:53:52 | |
arrangements with in the committee.
We are of course doing our best to | 3:53:52 | 3:53:57 | |
merge together the structures that
we have in this House alongside | 3:53:57 | 3:54:01 | |
cultural change. This will be
challenging, but I think we have the | 3:54:01 | 3:54:05 | |
balance as best we can and we will
be moving ahead with that. I would | 3:54:05 | 3:54:10 | |
urge that there is a campaign to
inform staff of the new human | 3:54:10 | 3:54:16 | |
resources facilities. I know it is
there and I know we have talked | 3:54:16 | 3:54:19 | |
about it, but we need to remind
people that this is their when they | 3:54:19 | 3:54:24 | |
needed. The independent complaint
policy in itself and I think the | 3:54:24 | 3:54:34 | |
particular emphasis for our staff to
constituency officers who are not | 3:54:34 | 3:54:39 | |
necessarily part of the same
discussion that we have here. The | 3:54:39 | 3:54:44 | |
process of forming new staff could
go into the future. It is not a one | 3:54:44 | 3:54:50 | |
event. Just as the size, I think
affective human resources facilities | 3:54:50 | 3:54:54 | |
being available to MP staff, these
will address the minor and mundane | 3:54:54 | 3:55:03 | |
problems and in doing so they will
prevent the problem from escalating. | 3:55:03 | 3:55:09 | |
Quite a bit of discussion about
training as well today, it's | 3:55:09 | 3:55:13 | |
important we depersonalise this.
There has been an individualistic | 3:55:13 | 3:55:17 | |
approach to this matter as a whole.
This isn't a threat to individuals | 3:55:17 | 3:55:21 | |
but anyway we bring about change as
an entire body, the training we | 3:55:21 | 3:55:28 | |
participate, not as a threat to
individuals, it's part of the | 3:55:28 | 3:55:31 | |
bringing about a change, this is our
corporate leadership to do that. To | 3:55:31 | 3:55:36 | |
close, and what I would like to
commend with this document in | 3:55:36 | 3:55:40 | |
particular, how politicians have
been able to rein in that | 3:55:40 | 3:55:45 | |
inclination to console as
individuals, to overemphasise the | 3:55:45 | 3:55:49 | |
potential for political motivation
in the complaints. This final report | 3:55:49 | 3:55:53 | |
has kept the balance between
supporting complainants and | 3:55:53 | 3:55:57 | |
resisting and overemphasis on
vexatious complaints. The success of | 3:55:57 | 3:56:06 | |
how these initiatives will be
measured will be from a culture of | 3:56:06 | 3:56:10 | |
deference and outmoded power
structures to a culture of respect | 3:56:10 | 3:56:13 | |
among equals working together in our
many Parliamentary workplaces | 3:56:13 | 3:56:17 | |
wherever they may be. The future
success will require rigorous | 3:56:17 | 3:56:24 | |
monitoring and implementation just
as the contribution of staff and | 3:56:24 | 3:56:27 | |
union representatives acted on a
number of occasions, frankly, as the | 3:56:27 | 3:56:31 | |
glue which held the working group
together. So it's essential there is | 3:56:31 | 3:56:34 | |
a full role. , representatives of
unions, or unions who have staff | 3:56:34 | 3:56:41 | |
here in the house. That they are
represented. These policies are not | 3:56:41 | 3:56:48 | |
complete. They will evolve in
practice and in review. But I am | 3:56:48 | 3:56:53 | |
confident they are catalysts of
change. Caroline Lucas. Thank you | 3:56:53 | 3:57:00 | |
very much Madam Deputy Speaker. I
think there is a sad irony that on | 3:57:00 | 3:57:05 | |
this hundredth anniversary of the
time when the first women won the | 3:57:05 | 3:57:08 | |
vote Parliament has been under the
spotlight as a place in which women | 3:57:08 | 3:57:11 | |
in particular do face so much
harassment and mistreatment. As we | 3:57:11 | 3:57:15 | |
know, one in five people working in
Westminster report experiencing or | 3:57:15 | 3:57:20 | |
witnessing sexual harassment in the
last 12 months, twice as many women | 3:57:20 | 3:57:24 | |
as men record incidents. It was a
real privilege to serve on the | 3:57:24 | 3:57:28 | |
cross-party working group set up to
respond to this routine sexual | 3:57:28 | 3:57:32 | |
misconduct, and indeed the
concurrent routine failure to handle | 3:57:32 | 3:57:35 | |
complaints either fairly or in some
cases at all. I want to join others | 3:57:35 | 3:57:39 | |
in paying particular tribute to the
leader of a house for her leadership | 3:57:39 | 3:57:42 | |
and commitment to seeking consensus
for the recommendations from the | 3:57:42 | 3:57:46 | |
working group. The report we
produced I think we'll set up a | 3:57:46 | 3:57:51 | |
support system where previously
there was none. It also establish an | 3:57:51 | 3:57:57 | |
independent framework in which
complaints can be heard and, | 3:57:57 | 3:58:01 | |
crucially, anybody who report sexual
misconduct will have access to a | 3:58:01 | 3:58:04 | |
complaints procedure that
specifically is designed to | 3:58:04 | 3:58:07 | |
differentiate between those cases
and bullying. That was the first and | 3:58:07 | 3:58:11 | |
arguably most important change the
working group pressed for. | 3:58:11 | 3:58:14 | |
Complainants will have access to
somebody with expertise in | 3:58:14 | 3:58:18 | |
supporting those who experience
sexual misconduct, somebody who | 3:58:18 | 3:58:20 | |
understands the complainant has to
be in control about the next steps | 3:58:20 | 3:58:23 | |
and who will fight for their rights
to be upheld. Parliament should lead | 3:58:23 | 3:58:28 | |
by example, not take it more power
away from those who make complaints, | 3:58:28 | 3:58:33 | |
as happens repeatedly elsewhere. I'm
very pleased this has been reflected | 3:58:33 | 3:58:36 | |
in the working group
recommendations. That is progress, | 3:58:36 | 3:58:41 | |
and it was possible due to having
one of the country's best qualified | 3:58:41 | 3:58:45 | |
expert in sexual harassment in an
advisory role on the working group, | 3:58:45 | 3:58:49 | |
meaning our work and decisions were
informed by evidence and best | 3:58:49 | 3:58:52 | |
practice. Thanks must go to her, but
also to the whole secretariat for | 3:58:52 | 3:58:57 | |
their tireless work, to all the
experts who supported us, and I | 3:58:57 | 3:59:00 | |
would echo the words of the
Honourable member for Perth and | 3:59:00 | 3:59:05 | |
North Perthshire about the
importance of staff representatives | 3:59:05 | 3:59:07 | |
in our negotiations, it really did
make our process far more effective | 3:59:07 | 3:59:11 | |
and inclusive. A complaint centred
approach is just the start. The next | 3:59:11 | 3:59:19 | |
steps are of equal importance,
especially the question of | 3:59:19 | 3:59:21 | |
sanctions. To some extent, that
question of sanctions is in the | 3:59:21 | 3:59:27 | |
hands of political parties, and I
welcome the commitment all parties | 3:59:27 | 3:59:30 | |
have made to reviewing and improving
their own processes. At the Green | 3:59:30 | 3:59:34 | |
party we've committed to referring
cases to an external body, which is | 3:59:34 | 3:59:42 | |
how we will ensure independence and
transparency. I'd like to make the | 3:59:42 | 3:59:45 | |
case that smaller parties are at a
disadvantage when it comes to | 3:59:45 | 3:59:47 | |
resource in those more robust
systems for training and constant | 3:59:47 | 3:59:52 | |
evaluation. I would ask Parliament
might be encouraged to look at this | 3:59:52 | 3:59:55 | |
on the grounds that I believe there
should be some element of funding | 3:59:55 | 3:59:57 | |
for political parties, and this
would be a good place to start. I | 3:59:57 | 4:00:02 | |
made that point at the working group
meeting. I've had previous | 4:00:02 | 4:00:08 | |
complainants and MPs tell me they
have zero confidence in their | 4:00:08 | 4:00:11 | |
parties to deal with cases fairly,
or take appropriate action against | 4:00:11 | 4:00:15 | |
perpetrators. That's the threat of a
by-election would be enough to kill | 4:00:15 | 4:00:18 | |
off the prospect of sanctions. A
vast amount of work must be done to | 4:00:18 | 4:00:25 | |
undo the years of sweeping under the
carpet that have taught us to a | 4:00:25 | 4:00:29 | |
place of distrust and despair. No
political party is perfect and I'm | 4:00:29 | 4:00:33 | |
certain my own party will have it's
an ongoing learning to do as | 4:00:33 | 4:00:37 | |
confident in procedure and more
vocal discourse on harassment right | 4:00:37 | 4:00:40 | |
encourages more people to come
forward. Today I want to pay tribute | 4:00:40 | 4:00:44 | |
in particular to labour and all of
the women with the coverage they've | 4:00:44 | 4:00:46 | |
shown in terms of raising that
within the Labour Party. The | 4:00:46 | 4:00:50 | |
challenge for political parties will
be to be brave enough to accept no | 4:00:50 | 4:00:56 | |
party, no organisation, no one, is
exempt from this. But that together | 4:00:56 | 4:01:00 | |
we can work together to challenge
that culture of harassment, and that | 4:01:00 | 4:01:04 | |
it can change if we are committed
enough to do that. And we must | 4:01:04 | 4:01:08 | |
prioritise the voices of those
coming forward over party | 4:01:08 | 4:01:11 | |
reputation. However, the working
group is clear many of those | 4:01:11 | 4:01:17 | |
experiencing sexual misconduct would
not be protected by party policies, | 4:01:17 | 4:01:21 | |
even if those were the best
possible. That is why we've | 4:01:21 | 4:01:24 | |
recommended the development of a
shared and binding behaviour code | 4:01:24 | 4:01:27 | |
that covers everyone working in
Parliament including all MPs, peers | 4:01:27 | 4:01:30 | |
and Parliamentary staff. That code
which will be developed in detail in | 4:01:30 | 4:01:34 | |
the coming months is crucial.
Volunteers, staff employed by | 4:01:34 | 4:01:39 | |
political parties, contractors,
officials working in Parliament, all | 4:01:39 | 4:01:42 | |
of them will be entitled hand-held
to the high standards of treatment. | 4:01:42 | 4:01:45 | |
It'll cover behaviour in any
designated place of work, or in the | 4:01:45 | 4:01:51 | |
cause of Parliamentary duties or
activities at home and crucially | 4:01:51 | 4:01:54 | |
also abroad. The working group
wasn't able in the timescale | 4:01:54 | 4:01:59 | |
involved to reach agreement on how
best to protect visitors to | 4:01:59 | 4:02:03 | |
constituency offices and I was
reassured by what the leader of the | 4:02:03 | 4:02:07 | |
house and said earlier in our
debate, saying it would be a | 4:02:07 | 4:02:10 | |
priority for her going forward.
We've had quite a bit of debate | 4:02:10 | 4:02:14 | |
about the role of the standards
committee, and while I do appreciate | 4:02:14 | 4:02:19 | |
that the inclusion of lay members on
that committee does improve the | 4:02:19 | 4:02:23 | |
situation, I do think the
recommendations in this report about | 4:02:23 | 4:02:26 | |
looking again at how the standards
committee works are going to be | 4:02:26 | 4:02:30 | |
important. I do think there is risk
of how this looks to outside this | 4:02:30 | 4:02:34 | |
place, to looking inside. If it
seems to them as if the outcome of a | 4:02:34 | 4:02:39 | |
complaint is in the hands of people,
politicians, who may have a vested | 4:02:39 | 4:02:43 | |
interest in not taking it any
further, I think it will undermine | 4:02:43 | 4:02:47 | |
all the good work we've done to
date. I think there is a risk we | 4:02:47 | 4:02:51 | |
could be perceived to leave the
system open to abuse by political | 4:02:51 | 4:02:56 | |
string bowlers and other career
makers or breakers. It flies in the | 4:02:56 | 4:03:00 | |
face of what constitutes best
practice and is utterly at odds with | 4:03:00 | 4:03:04 | |
the stand-up principle of an
independent system which underpins | 4:03:04 | 4:03:07 | |
the working group report. They risk
perpetuating the lack of trust | 4:03:07 | 4:03:12 | |
keenly felt by the staff these new
procedures are supposed to protect | 4:03:12 | 4:03:16 | |
and risk further reputational damage
by opening a sub, rightly, to | 4:03:16 | 4:03:21 | |
accusations we are dragging our feet
were letting perpetrators off the | 4:03:21 | 4:03:25 | |
hook. We've made huge strides in the
last hundred years but still have a | 4:03:25 | 4:03:29 | |
patriarchal political culture that
is, negates against woman and | 4:03:29 | 4:03:33 | |
bodies. A complaints mechanism fit
for purpose work to transform things | 4:03:33 | 4:03:37 | |
overnight but will make a big
difference and send a loud signal | 4:03:37 | 4:03:40 | |
that we recognise the problem. But
that difference and that signal | 4:03:40 | 4:03:46 | |
will, themselves, be seriously
undermined if MPs are left deciding | 4:03:46 | 4:03:51 | |
on recall and other sanctions. I
want to say a few last words about | 4:03:51 | 4:03:56 | |
culture change and I have been very
heartened by the number of people on | 4:03:56 | 4:03:59 | |
both sides of the house if stressed
the importance of culture change. It | 4:03:59 | 4:04:04 | |
was not formally within the remit of
our working group but I'm very glad | 4:04:04 | 4:04:08 | |
we did stray into it. It's very
right that we did. I think it does | 4:04:08 | 4:04:12 | |
show we have an opportunity to start
to dismantle the power inequalities | 4:04:12 | 4:04:16 | |
that exercise such a damaging grip
on politics and to replace them with | 4:04:16 | 4:04:20 | |
a culture founded on dignity,
equality and safety from harassment. | 4:04:20 | 4:04:24 | |
One that goes further than
sanctioning those who haven't yet | 4:04:24 | 4:04:28 | |
grasped why grabbing somebody's knee
without permission is a problem, one | 4:04:28 | 4:04:32 | |
that also seeks to educate. I'm
sorry that we didn't manage to get | 4:04:32 | 4:04:36 | |
agreement for compulsory content
training in this Parliament, though | 4:04:36 | 4:04:39 | |
I'm glad we had the famous kite mark
by any other name, we decided not to | 4:04:39 | 4:04:43 | |
call it a kite mark. The Honourable
member for Perth and North | 4:04:43 | 4:04:47 | |
Perthshire will be glad there is
still the idea of a naming and | 4:04:47 | 4:04:51 | |
shaming device. It could still mean
that proper compulsory content | 4:04:51 | 4:04:53 | |
training might not start happening
until 2022. I do think it's not | 4:04:53 | 4:04:59 | |
right that staffers and visitors to
the parliamentary estate have to | 4:04:59 | 4:05:03 | |
wait another five years to be
guaranteed safety in the workplace. | 4:05:03 | 4:05:07 | |
But I want to put on a record
formally now I believe we will have | 4:05:07 | 4:05:11 | |
failed all of those of experience
sexual misconduct and who | 4:05:11 | 4:05:15 | |
experienced it in future if we don't
continue the momentum started in | 4:05:15 | 4:05:18 | |
this working group to take radical
steps when it comes to culture | 4:05:18 | 4:05:21 | |
change. The immunity once enjoyed by
the powerful and influential is | 4:05:21 | 4:05:25 | |
starting to wear off, but perhaps
only because we are under a | 4:05:25 | 4:05:28 | |
spotlight and right now there are
loud, strong voices for change. It | 4:05:28 | 4:05:31 | |
has to continue, those loud voices
need to continue to be heard. This | 4:05:31 | 4:05:36 | |
issue must not be allowed to be
kicked into the long grass. | 4:05:36 | 4:05:40 | |
Arguments like only those who employ
staff should have to participate in | 4:05:40 | 4:05:45 | |
training, nor should those kinds of
arguments be allowed to gain | 4:05:45 | 4:05:48 | |
traction. Every single peer and MP
must learn about consent, bullying, | 4:05:48 | 4:05:52 | |
to understand the power they hold
and the weight of their actions. | 4:05:52 | 4:05:56 | |
That education has to be ongoing and
delivered by experts attacking | 4:05:56 | 4:06:01 | |
misconduct and bullying. Crucially,
I do believe, sadly, that this | 4:06:01 | 4:06:04 | |
training does need to be accompanied
by a system of financial penalties | 4:06:04 | 4:06:08 | |
imposed on those who fail to
cooperate, it's been recommended by | 4:06:08 | 4:06:12 | |
the Public Administration and
Constitutional affairs committees | 4:06:12 | 4:06:15 | |
and could include withholding pay
and allowances. The systems and | 4:06:15 | 4:06:18 | |
processes have to have teeth or they
will be rendered meaningless. Madame | 4:06:18 | 4:06:24 | |
Debord is bigger, unfortunately,
serious sexual harassment and | 4:06:24 | 4:06:26 | |
bullying is endemic in Westminster.
-- Madam Deputy Speaker. The | 4:06:26 | 4:06:32 | |
behaviour in this chamber is part of
the problem. I knows you and your | 4:06:32 | 4:06:36 | |
colleagues will continue to show
leadership in that respect as well | 4:06:36 | 4:06:38 | |
as demanding much more from
colleagues. Finally I want to echo | 4:06:38 | 4:06:43 | |
those Honourable members who have
already talked about the importance | 4:06:43 | 4:06:46 | |
of ongoing evaluation review and
development. We must make sure as we | 4:06:46 | 4:06:52 | |
go along we're tracking to see how
effective our new procedures are. | 4:06:52 | 4:06:56 | |
That must also include those cases
not taken forward. We need to devise | 4:06:56 | 4:07:02 | |
mechanisms for trying to capture
ones that don't even come into | 4:07:02 | 4:07:06 | |
contact with the system. I disagree
profoundly with the witnesses | 4:07:06 | 4:07:10 | |
evidence to the working group was
that we don't have a problem because | 4:07:10 | 4:07:12 | |
no one ever reported one. A final
few words about complainants wishing | 4:07:12 | 4:07:17 | |
to remain anonymous. We've protected
that right and reflected the | 4:07:17 | 4:07:21 | |
importance of building up a picture
that includes those cases, for | 4:07:21 | 4:07:24 | |
example, if an individual is accused
by a number of different people, | 4:07:24 | 4:07:28 | |
that is a pattern of behaviour that
can be investigated further, whether | 4:07:28 | 4:07:32 | |
or not formal complaints are made.
Of course we must uphold data | 4:07:32 | 4:07:35 | |
protection laws but I'm pleased I
think we found ways within the | 4:07:35 | 4:07:39 | |
framework to pay attention to cases
where the complainant wishes to | 4:07:39 | 4:07:42 | |
remain anonymous. Madam Deputy
Speaker, though the working group | 4:07:42 | 4:07:46 | |
doesn't go as far as I would have
liked in some areas, I'm proud of | 4:07:46 | 4:07:49 | |
the extent to which we've signalled
a 0% tolerance to sexual misconduct, | 4:07:49 | 4:07:55 | |
making politics a world genuinely
attractive, accessible and safe for | 4:07:55 | 4:08:00 | |
irrespective of gender, race,
sexuality or background is a prize | 4:08:00 | 4:08:04 | |
from which society as a whole can
only benefit. I'm reassured with the | 4:08:04 | 4:08:08 | |
kind of response we've had from all
sides of the house today that is | 4:08:08 | 4:08:11 | |
something we can do, that we can
make a real difference. Thank you | 4:08:11 | 4:08:17 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. Today marks a
positive step forwards towards | 4:08:17 | 4:08:24 | |
achieving a working environment that
treats everyone with the dignity and | 4:08:24 | 4:08:27 | |
respect they deserve when they come
to work. Further work is needed but | 4:08:27 | 4:08:30 | |
I do want to take this opportunity
to thank all those who have helped | 4:08:30 | 4:08:33 | |
us get to this point. So can I first
thank all members of the working | 4:08:33 | 4:08:38 | |
group, the Honourable members for
Walsall South, Brent Central, Perth | 4:08:38 | 4:08:44 | |
and North Perthshire, East
Dunbartonshire, Brighton Pavilion, | 4:08:44 | 4:08:46 | |
Belfast South... My noble friend
Baroness Evans of Bowes Park, Lord | 4:08:46 | 4:08:53 | |
Hope of Craighead and our staff
representatives Max Friedman, | 4:08:53 | 4:08:57 | |
Georgina Koester and Emily
Cunningham, for all of their | 4:08:57 | 4:09:02 | |
dedication and perseverance over the
last few months. I'd also like to | 4:09:02 | 4:09:06 | |
thank the amazingly hard-working
members of the secretariat, Nick | 4:09:06 | 4:09:10 | |
Beach, Andrew Boro, Christopher
Clarke, Ian Hook, Justine Henin, | 4:09:10 | 4:09:14 | |
Alex Langley, Helen Mott, Anna
Murphy, Sophie Sommerville and Kate | 4:09:14 | 4:09:18 | |
Emms, as well as my own leaders of
his team. Their help, support and | 4:09:18 | 4:09:23 | |
advice has been invaluable and I
sincerely thank them for their drive | 4:09:23 | 4:09:27 | |
and determination. I'm very grateful
to all those who gave written or | 4:09:27 | 4:09:30 | |
oral evidence to the group and for
colleagues or sides of the house and | 4:09:30 | 4:09:35 | |
in the other places given their own
thoughts and advice. Adam Deputy | 4:09:35 | 4:09:41 | |
Speaker, this Parliament must lead
by example. It is a right not a | 4:09:41 | 4:09:44 | |
privilege to be treated with dignity
and respect at work. This place must | 4:09:44 | 4:09:49 | |
set the best example of a workplace
that protects and support all those | 4:09:49 | 4:09:54 | |
working in it. So can I assure all
those who contributed and who care | 4:09:54 | 4:09:58 | |
deeply, as I do, about changing the
future for all who work here, that | 4:09:58 | 4:10:04 | |
I'm 100% committed to seeing this
through. No rolling back, no | 4:10:04 | 4:10:08 | |
watering down, and no delay. Madam
Deputy Speaker, I hope the house | 4:10:08 | 4:10:12 | |
will support this motion. The
question is that the amendment be | 4:10:12 | 4:10:17 | |
made. As many as are of that opinion
say aye. The ayes have it, the ayes | 4:10:17 | 4:10:27 | |
have it. The motion as amended, as
many as I wrote that opinion say | 4:10:27 | 4:10:32 | |
aye. On the contrary know. The ayes
have it, the ayes have it. | 4:10:32 | 4:10:42 | |
The title of the private build sent
down for consideration today. Middle | 4:10:42 | 4:10:47 | |
level Bill. No. We will take new
clause one which will it will be | 4:10:47 | 4:10:57 | |
convenient to consider. Sir
Christopher choke. I bake to move | 4:10:57 | 4:11:09 | |
new clause one, minimum debt
requirements. The Commissioner much | 4:11:09 | 4:11:13 | |
assured that the water in the
waterways must be a minimum depth of | 4:11:13 | 4:11:18 | |
three feet. In the event that the
depth is not maintained, no boaters | 4:11:18 | 4:11:25 | |
should be required to pay any
charge. And the background to this | 4:11:25 | 4:11:31 | |
new clause is the principle of quid
pro quo. Because the petitioners are | 4:11:31 | 4:11:44 | |
concerned that new charges and
obligations are being brought in | 4:11:44 | 4:11:49 | |
without them getting anything in
return. But before I expand on that. | 4:11:49 | 4:11:54 | |
Can I say that because all of these
new clauses and amendments are being | 4:11:54 | 4:12:01 | |
grouped together in one, we are
effectively discussing the Bill as a | 4:12:01 | 4:12:05 | |
whole. I think every single part of
the Bill is included in one or other | 4:12:05 | 4:12:12 | |
of the amendments. And I'm grateful
to my friend for confirming that | 4:12:12 | 4:12:16 | |
that is the situation. I must make a
few introductory remarks by saying | 4:12:16 | 4:12:23 | |
that I know I am the petitioners
much appreciate the way in which the | 4:12:23 | 4:12:30 | |
promotion of this Bill have
responded positively to the points | 4:12:30 | 4:12:34 | |
made. As a series of good points
that out in the promoter's statement | 4:12:34 | 4:12:42 | |
and the people who worked on the
committee I think that everybody | 4:12:42 | 4:12:51 | |
agrees that this is to a credit to
this House that this Bill has been | 4:12:51 | 4:12:56 | |
looked at in such detail. Obviously,
when we had the Second Reading | 4:12:56 | 4:13:04 | |
debate, number of points were made
and the petitioner and the | 4:13:04 | 4:13:07 | |
commissioners responded to those and
some of those responses were | 4:13:07 | 4:13:13 | |
reflected in amendments that were
brought forward at the Committee | 4:13:13 | 4:13:16 | |
Stage and at the same time when the
petitioners had a chance to be | 4:13:16 | 4:13:21 | |
heard, over I think three days, many
of their points were accepted. I | 4:13:21 | 4:13:26 | |
think the stage where we are now is
the amendments were put forward as a | 4:13:26 | 4:13:32 | |
result of those were representation,
question whether those amendments go | 4:13:32 | 4:13:39 | |
far enough, could beach week in some
way. -- could beach week in some | 4:13:39 | 4:13:45 | |
way. I am sure that when the Bill
does go to the Other Place, there | 4:13:45 | 4:13:54 | |
will be a petition against it and we
will be able to see the extent to | 4:13:54 | 4:13:57 | |
which the petitioners arguments are
accepted today prior to the Bill | 4:13:57 | 4:14:06 | |
going to the Other Place. Because
obviously it is open at any stage of | 4:14:06 | 4:14:12 | |
the promoter of the Bill to say, I
think that is a good point, we have | 4:14:12 | 4:14:15 | |
not thought of that. I'm behalf of
the promoters, he is a very good | 4:14:15 | 4:14:25 | |
listener. And I am sure that will go
well for the future. So this is a | 4:14:25 | 4:14:32 | |
Bill that has been never objected
to. I think it is now much better | 4:14:32 | 4:14:43 | |
Bill, but although much better, it
does not mean it is not capable of | 4:14:43 | 4:14:47 | |
further improvement. That is the
whole purpose of putting forward | 4:14:47 | 4:14:53 | |
these new clauses and amendments
this afternoon. Paragraph 2.3 of the | 4:14:53 | 4:15:00 | |
statement on behalf of the promoter
of the middle level commissioners in | 4:15:00 | 4:15:05 | |
support of the Bill makes clear that
the commissioners currently do not | 4:15:05 | 4:15:13 | |
receive any income from the
navigation of the waterways. With | 4:15:13 | 4:15:17 | |
the passage of this Bill they will
see income. New clause one is | 4:15:17 | 4:15:22 | |
designed to ensure that the quid pro
quo is that if the waterway is not | 4:15:22 | 4:15:33 | |
navigable, those charges should not
be applied. The petitioners believe | 4:15:33 | 4:15:37 | |
that under case law that means the
commissioners must provide something | 4:15:37 | 4:15:49 | |
beyond what is already provided in
return for making additional | 4:15:49 | 4:15:52 | |
charges. I think you accept that is
a reasonable proposition. The march | 4:15:52 | 4:15:59 | |
cruising club specifically are of
the opinion that if you are able to | 4:15:59 | 4:16:05 | |
charge the boaters to use the system
of navigation, it is essential that | 4:16:05 | 4:16:09 | |
voter facilities are available and
also there is adequate depth of | 4:16:09 | 4:16:18 | |
water and that is maintained or
introduced at a minimum standard and | 4:16:18 | 4:16:21 | |
where that does not apply, then
there should be a waving of any | 4:16:21 | 4:16:27 | |
requirement to pay any charges. Yes,
of course I would. As you would be | 4:16:27 | 4:16:36 | |
aware. This does affect my
constituency because without the | 4:16:36 | 4:16:40 | |
middle level commissioners, we
wouldn't have many thousands of | 4:16:40 | 4:16:48 | |
farmland. The key point here is that
the money that was previously spent | 4:16:48 | 4:16:57 | |
on navigation unlocks, on these
waterways, if it is actually funded | 4:16:57 | 4:17:01 | |
through this charge, there will be
more money for flood defenses. And | 4:17:01 | 4:17:06 | |
flood defenses are absolute key
issue and a priority in this part of | 4:17:06 | 4:17:11 | |
my constituency. Do you agree that
the principle of the Bill is | 4:17:11 | 4:17:15 | |
actually really fit for purpose? Now
he has got his involvement with | 4:17:15 | 4:17:21 | |
these various amendments, but the
principle is still very strong. I | 4:17:21 | 4:17:29 | |
think the principle is that if the
farmers and I know that my | 4:17:29 | 4:17:36 | |
honourable friend has a significant
interest in farming, if farmers are | 4:17:36 | 4:17:40 | |
going to benefit from this type of
scheme that I don't see why they | 4:17:40 | 4:17:46 | |
should not have to pay for the
benefit that they are getting. From | 4:17:46 | 4:17:50 | |
that scheme. And that is what this
is all about. I don't hold myself | 4:17:50 | 4:17:56 | |
out as an expert on anything, but
certainly not on this. I am told | 4:17:56 | 4:18:03 | |
that if if there was no longer any
land drainage, then the navigation | 4:18:03 | 4:18:09 | |
would be actually a much wider, more
effective, deeper and so on. So in a | 4:18:09 | 4:18:17 | |
sense, the land drainage which
enables the farmers to make their | 4:18:17 | 4:18:20 | |
profits off the land is of direct
benefit to the farmers, as the | 4:18:20 | 4:18:28 | |
navigation would be there anyway. I
don't know if you except that sure | 4:18:28 | 4:18:36 | |
analysis of it. Maybe he is a better
student of geography than I am. That | 4:18:36 | 4:18:42 | |
is what I am informed. In that
sense, Mr Deputy Speaker, when the | 4:18:42 | 4:18:49 | |
commissioners were first given their
role, it was on the basis that they | 4:18:49 | 4:18:52 | |
would recover charges from the land
owners rather than the users of the | 4:18:52 | 4:19:00 | |
navigation. And so if there are
going to be charges introduced for | 4:19:00 | 4:19:07 | |
the use of the navigation, then the
argument is those charges should be | 4:19:07 | 4:19:13 | |
in respect of enabling the
navigation to be kept open and | 4:19:13 | 4:19:16 | |
usable by those who are being
charged for using it. That seems a | 4:19:16 | 4:19:24 | |
perfect and equitable way to do it.
That is the background to the first | 4:19:24 | 4:19:32 | |
Amendment of the new clause. Before
he moves on, will he give way? I am | 4:19:32 | 4:19:40 | |
very grateful to him. I apologise
for missing his opening statement. | 4:19:40 | 4:19:44 | |
But could he... Could he tell me how
many times that this depth of water | 4:19:44 | 4:19:54 | |
is not maintained to this level? Is
this a solution looking for a | 4:19:54 | 4:19:59 | |
problem or is this a genuine
problem? I'm afraid I am not brief | 4:19:59 | 4:20:06 | |
to have an answer to that particular
question. All I can say is that is a | 4:20:06 | 4:20:11 | |
general comment that this is a point
which has been raised by the March | 4:20:11 | 4:20:15 | |
cruising club and I imagine they
would not be concerned about this if | 4:20:15 | 4:20:20 | |
it was not a problem. That is all I
can say to my honourable friend. The | 4:20:20 | 4:20:26 | |
March cruising club believe that
this is a very important issue for | 4:20:26 | 4:20:31 | |
them. There should be this adequate
depth of water to make sure the | 4:20:31 | 4:20:35 | |
navigation is available. That brings
me onto a new clause two which is a | 4:20:35 | 4:20:46 | |
requirement to provide specified
facilities. That would require the | 4:20:46 | 4:20:51 | |
commissioners within 12 months of
the day of the act coming into force | 4:20:51 | 4:20:57 | |
providing facilities at those locks.
Including a laboratory, freshwater | 4:20:57 | 4:21:02 | |
point, beings, etc. They should also
provide a minimum of ten moorings | 4:21:02 | 4:21:10 | |
for up to seven days capable of
accommodating a boat up to 50 feet | 4:21:10 | 4:21:14 | |
in length. This is, again, a quid
pro quo. If the commissioners want | 4:21:14 | 4:21:20 | |
to make money out of the navigation,
it would be sensible for them to be | 4:21:20 | 4:21:29 | |
able to make sure that there are
proper facilities for those vessels, | 4:21:29 | 4:21:35 | |
which are using the navigation and
will be paying significantly for | 4:21:35 | 4:21:38 | |
that privilege. A similar point is
raised a new clause three. By the | 4:21:38 | 4:21:51 | |
March cruising club to say that the
commissioners must within 12 months | 4:21:51 | 4:21:55 | |
of the day this act comes in to
force and of course... I understand | 4:21:55 | 4:22:08 | |
the commissioners have more or less
guaranteed that this is what they | 4:22:08 | 4:22:10 | |
are going to do provide these
facilities, but what the | 4:22:10 | 4:22:16 | |
petitioners, understandably, want to
ensure is that those undertakings | 4:22:16 | 4:22:20 | |
and expression of good intention are
properly reflected on the face of | 4:22:20 | 4:22:26 | |
the legislation rather than just
being left as a matter of good will. | 4:22:26 | 4:22:30 | |
I will give way. Shortly there is
very few precedents for putting this | 4:22:30 | 4:22:39 | |
on the face of the Bill, specific
infrastructure. I think it would | 4:22:39 | 4:22:45 | |
some way cheapen the Bill and I
think make it... The voting interest | 4:22:45 | 4:22:57 | |
what they want above all else they
want really good navigable waters, | 4:22:57 | 4:23:03 | |
that are well maintained at the rate
depth so they can enjoy both at | 4:23:03 | 4:23:09 | |
different time peered and then if
there is a service of revenue that | 4:23:09 | 4:23:18 | |
means other facilities indeed can be
looked at in the future. I would | 4:23:18 | 4:23:23 | |
urge my right honourable friend
putting this on the face of a Bill | 4:23:23 | 4:23:25 | |
is not a good idea. I am glad that
my honourable friend agrees that the | 4:23:25 | 4:23:33 | |
provision of these facilities is a
good idea, but I cannot understand | 4:23:33 | 4:23:37 | |
why he thinks requiring them to be
provided on the face of the Bill is | 4:23:37 | 4:23:41 | |
not a good idea. He says there is no
need. I suppose it is an issue of | 4:23:41 | 4:23:52 | |
trust as to whether or not the
undertakings can... Will be | 4:23:52 | 4:23:57 | |
honoured. We have had precedent in
other bills, private bills in this | 4:23:57 | 4:24:05 | |
House, for example, in the North
London cemetery Bill. Where the | 4:24:05 | 4:24:09 | |
promoters of the Bill giving an
undertaking which was then put on... | 4:24:09 | 4:24:20 | |
Put in the public domain and that
may be another way of resolving this | 4:24:20 | 4:24:25 | |
problem. It seems what my right
honourable friend is saying is that | 4:24:25 | 4:24:31 | |
everyone is in agreement that these
facilities are necessary and | 4:24:31 | 4:24:35 | |
desirable and should be provided.
So, that brings me onto new clause | 4:24:35 | 4:24:43 | |
four, which is saying the
commissioners must within 12 months | 4:24:43 | 4:24:48 | |
enable access of moorings under a
boot NT system. Operated by the | 4:24:48 | 4:24:57 | |
commissioners. Not an unreasonable
suggestion. This is a practise that | 4:24:57 | 4:25:01 | |
is commonplace in the boating
industry. Then I think the most | 4:25:01 | 4:25:09 | |
important of these five introductory
new clauses, Mr Deputy Speaker, is | 4:25:09 | 4:25:15 | |
new clause five, which would make
provision that no voter should be | 4:25:15 | 4:25:19 | |
required to pay any charges under
the provisions of this act until the | 4:25:19 | 4:25:24 | |
facilities and moorings specified in
the act are maintained in good | 4:25:24 | 4:25:28 | |
repair and in working order. | 4:25:28 | 4:25:36 | |
Should the users be required to pay
before they got the facilities or | 4:25:36 | 4:25:40 | |
should they only be required to pay
once facilities are there? It seems | 4:25:40 | 4:25:44 | |
to me that is an important issue. I
particularly support new clause five | 4:25:44 | 4:25:55 | |
Mr Deputy Speaker because I struggle
to find a reason anybody couldn't | 4:25:55 | 4:26:02 | |
support new clause five because it
only seems to be fair. I wonder | 4:26:02 | 4:26:06 | |
whether or not my honourable friend
had had any discussions with either | 4:26:06 | 4:26:10 | |
the promoter of the bill or the
people behind it to find out if | 4:26:10 | 4:26:14 | |
they, too, thought it was just a
clause they would accept or what | 4:26:14 | 4:26:21 | |
logical reason they have for not
accepting it. We haven't reached | 4:26:21 | 4:26:23 | |
that stage yet, I have to say, my
honourable friend. It may be my | 4:26:23 | 4:26:28 | |
fault because I haven't actually sat
down with the promoters of this bill | 4:26:28 | 4:26:34 | |
and discussed in detail these
particular issues. My understanding | 4:26:34 | 4:26:37 | |
is that there have been quite a lot
of discussions around this in the | 4:26:37 | 4:26:43 | |
context of the committee stage and
that the petitioners, for the | 4:26:43 | 4:26:49 | |
reasons I've set out, are still
unhappy and feel that there needs to | 4:26:49 | 4:26:56 | |
be a new clause incorporating this
particular condition. Of course I'll | 4:26:56 | 4:26:59 | |
give way. I thank the Honourable
member for giving way and I am | 4:26:59 | 4:27:03 | |
finding his speech of some interest,
would he be interested to note | 4:27:03 | 4:27:06 | |
clause four was amended in the
committee to make clear revenue from | 4:27:06 | 4:27:12 | |
navigation would only be spent on
navigation purposes and this was | 4:27:12 | 4:27:16 | |
done in response to the petitioners
concern is to ensure the confidence | 4:27:16 | 4:27:20 | |
they could have, that effectively
whilst they are getting something | 4:27:20 | 4:27:22 | |
for nothing, they would get
something for what they pay and it | 4:27:22 | 4:27:27 | |
would be clear navigation fees would
go on navigational facilities and | 4:27:27 | 4:27:30 | |
costs. I thank my honourable friend
for his intervention. We'll be | 4:27:30 | 4:27:36 | |
coming on to clause four and
amendments to clause four. I'm not | 4:27:36 | 4:27:40 | |
going to do anything other than say
the petitioners and I are very | 4:27:40 | 4:27:45 | |
pleased that new clause four was
introduced into the bill in the | 4:27:45 | 4:27:49 | |
committee stage in response to
concerns expressed. I mentioned at | 4:27:49 | 4:27:53 | |
the outset, because it was brought
in at that stage, doesn't mean it's | 4:27:53 | 4:27:59 | |
perfect. This is really why we've
got these new clauses, these | 4:27:59 | 4:28:05 | |
preliminary new clauses, and some
amendments to clause four which I | 4:28:05 | 4:28:09 | |
shall come to in due course. I think
it's much easier for people to | 4:28:09 | 4:28:14 | |
follow proceedings if we go, start
at the beginning and go clause by | 4:28:14 | 4:28:19 | |
clause. Yes? And very grateful, but
would he agree with me that if new | 4:28:19 | 4:28:26 | |
clause five were not accepted it
would, in effect, mean people would | 4:28:26 | 4:28:30 | |
say it was absolutely fine for the
charges to be made, but the | 4:28:30 | 4:28:34 | |
facilities not to be in good repair
and working order and that would be | 4:28:34 | 4:28:40 | |
intolerable if that were not
accepted. I hear the Honourable | 4:28:40 | 4:28:46 | |
friend speaking on behalf of the
promoters say in my honourable | 4:28:46 | 4:28:50 | |
friend would be wrong about that.
Let's wait until we get to | 4:28:50 | 4:28:57 | |
discussing clause four, which was
introduced at the committee stage, | 4:28:57 | 4:29:01 | |
to see whether we can tease more
information out on all the | 4:29:01 | 4:29:06 | |
implications. As far as... This
brings me on to the amendments, Mr | 4:29:06 | 4:29:15 | |
Deputy Speaker. Amendment number
one, page two clause one, line 24, | 4:29:15 | 4:29:21 | |
it basically says it's an
unreasonably short period of time | 4:29:21 | 4:29:27 | |
between this bill obtaining consent
and being implemented. It specified | 4:29:27 | 4:29:37 | |
it should only be 28 days, and it
seems to me that it would be | 4:29:37 | 4:29:45 | |
reasonable for that period to be six
months. It would come into force at | 4:29:45 | 4:29:51 | |
the end of six months beginning on
the day which it was passed. I would | 4:29:51 | 4:29:59 | |
not say it was the most important of
all the amendments but it would be | 4:29:59 | 4:30:02 | |
interesting to hear from the
promoters asked why they don't think | 4:30:02 | 4:30:06 | |
it's a reasonable position to have,
because we know under the provisions | 4:30:06 | 4:30:10 | |
of this bill they're going to have
to draw up bylaws and it doesn't | 4:30:10 | 4:30:16 | |
mean they can't start working on the
bylaws in advance of the bill being | 4:30:16 | 4:30:23 | |
passed into law and then leaving a
period of six months until it | 4:30:23 | 4:30:29 | |
implemented, bearing in mind the
fact we're dealing with a lot of | 4:30:29 | 4:30:36 | |
laypeople who are... Who will
probably need a lot of notice of the | 4:30:36 | 4:30:41 | |
changes that are going to be made
under the provisions of this bill. | 4:30:41 | 4:30:49 | |
So, amendments two, again, is, in a
sense, a drafting amendment. When we | 4:30:49 | 4:30:54 | |
get the definition of what is
polluting, it seems to me, it's much | 4:30:54 | 4:31:06 | |
easier to keep that as an objective
test and so I've got no problem | 4:31:06 | 4:31:13 | |
defining polluting matter as sewage
or any other injurious matter, | 4:31:13 | 4:31:16 | |
whether solid or liquid. We were let
our imaginations run to wild on all | 4:31:16 | 4:31:23 | |
that. What I find more difficult Mr
Deputy Speaker is what is meant by | 4:31:23 | 4:31:28 | |
the word offensive. What is added by
including that, because essentially, | 4:31:28 | 4:31:35 | |
what is offensive to one person may
not be offensive to another. It's a | 4:31:35 | 4:31:40 | |
subjective test. I'd be interested
to know from my honourable friend | 4:31:40 | 4:31:44 | |
what he thinks that subjective test
adds in that particular part of the | 4:31:44 | 4:31:50 | |
interpretation section on polluting
matter. In relation to amendment | 4:31:50 | 4:31:59 | |
three, I'm going through these quite
quickly but as I don't think there | 4:31:59 | 4:32:02 | |
is any need to spend a lot of time
on amendments to which there should | 4:32:02 | 4:32:07 | |
be a short and succinct answer
saying, yes, I agree with the | 4:32:07 | 4:32:13 | |
honourable gentleman, I think these
are good amendments and we'll be | 4:32:13 | 4:32:16 | |
happy to incorporate them in the
bill. As far as amendment three | 4:32:16 | 4:32:20 | |
goes, this is more of a probing
amendment. Because we are in the new | 4:32:20 | 4:32:28 | |
age of electricity. The definition
of power driven vessel here includes | 4:32:28 | 4:32:35 | |
a vessel propelled by detachable
outboard engine. But it doesn't | 4:32:35 | 4:32:43 | |
include a sailing boat, rowing boat,
or canoe. Fine. Now that we've got a | 4:32:43 | 4:32:50 | |
new generation of electric motors,
why don't we introduce in a bill | 4:32:50 | 4:32:57 | |
like this an incentive for people to
use electric power on these | 4:32:57 | 4:33:06 | |
waterways as photos? Because
electric power is a much less | 4:33:06 | 4:33:12 | |
polluting and better for the
atmosphere. -- use these waterways | 4:33:12 | 4:33:19 | |
as boaters. If it's quiet, as these
new cards seem to be, it would | 4:33:19 | 4:33:24 | |
hardly disturb anybody, as the boat
powered by an electric motor glides | 4:33:24 | 4:33:32 | |
down the route of the navigation. So
I'd be interested in the thoughts of | 4:33:32 | 4:33:39 | |
my honourable friend on that. And
indeed on recognising the minister | 4:33:39 | 4:33:45 | |
on the front bench, who's come along
to help us in our deliberations. | 4:33:45 | 4:33:49 | |
Maybe this is an issue as well which
the government might be interested | 4:33:49 | 4:33:54 | |
in thinking about introducing some
sort of incentive for the use of | 4:33:54 | 4:33:58 | |
electric motors rather than
outboards. I know that in my | 4:33:58 | 4:34:05 | |
constituency if there were more
electric driven vessels rather than | 4:34:05 | 4:34:12 | |
power driven vessels, a lot of my
constituents would be very happy. | 4:34:12 | 4:34:17 | |
That could be the opening up of a
much larger issue, but why not start | 4:34:17 | 4:34:22 | |
raising it on the first occasion to
today? Which takes me on to | 4:34:22 | 4:34:29 | |
amendment four Mr Deputy Speaker,
which is about the use. Are we | 4:34:29 | 4:34:38 | |
talking about the use of the
vessels. It says in use in relation | 4:34:38 | 4:34:42 | |
to any vessel on the waterway
includes launching the vessel onto | 4:34:42 | 4:34:46 | |
the waterway, keeping or mooring it
on the waterway. I've got no quarrel | 4:34:46 | 4:34:52 | |
with the rest of it, navigating
getting it on the waterway and | 4:34:52 | 4:34:55 | |
letting it for higher. But there
seems to be a lot of concern about | 4:34:55 | 4:34:59 | |
what happens when people have a
vessel which is kept at the side of | 4:34:59 | 4:35:05 | |
the waterway, even in a marina,
always used as a houseboat. Are we | 4:35:05 | 4:35:15 | |
really saying it is about using the
vessel on a waterway? Under this | 4:35:15 | 4:35:25 | |
definition, it would amount to using
the vessel on a waterway and it | 4:35:25 | 4:35:29 | |
doesn't seem to me that really fits
in with common sense, using a | 4:35:29 | 4:35:35 | |
waterway means, surely, using it,
navigating it, letting it for | 4:35:35 | 4:35:38 | |
higher. It doesn't include keeping
or mooring it on the waterway. That | 4:35:38 | 4:35:45 | |
is amendment number four. Number
five is a more extensive version of | 4:35:45 | 4:35:57 | |
the same concern, which has been
raised by a number of the | 4:35:57 | 4:36:05 | |
petitioners. Because the extension
of waterways, they say they find the | 4:36:05 | 4:36:16 | |
amended definition in this bill
compared with what it was like | 4:36:16 | 4:36:21 | |
before it went to committee is, I
quote, a move in the right | 4:36:21 | 4:36:25 | |
direction. But it still serves to
extend the jurisdiction and control | 4:36:25 | 4:36:31 | |
of the commissioners into privately
owned property, such as marinas, | 4:36:31 | 4:36:35 | |
which will usurp the rights of
property owners to decide who and | 4:36:35 | 4:36:39 | |
which boats can use the water over
their land. And the petitioners feel | 4:36:39 | 4:36:44 | |
this is an unwarranted interference
with the rights of private citizens. | 4:36:44 | 4:36:48 | |
And at the very least there should
be provision for boat owners whose | 4:36:48 | 4:36:53 | |
vessels remain permanently within
the marina to make an offer what a | 4:36:53 | 4:36:59 | |
declaration, a sort of waterway | 4:36:59 | 4:37:08 | |
the marina to make an offer what a
declaration, a sort of waterway, so | 4:37:08 | 4:37:09 | |
they are no longer reliable for the
charges. I think it's a very good | 4:37:09 | 4:37:15 | |
analogy. If you don't use your
vehicle, your motor vehicle, on the | 4:37:15 | 4:37:18 | |
road, you don't have to pay the tax,
the road tax. If you're not using a | 4:37:18 | 4:37:23 | |
houseboat on the water, why should
you have to pay for these charges | 4:37:23 | 4:37:28 | |
and why should you? That issue could
be resolved by having a narrower | 4:37:28 | 4:37:35 | |
definition of waterway and that,
indeed, is what amendment number | 4:37:35 | 4:37:42 | |
five six to do, because it says at
line 17, or is it lying 18... The | 4:37:42 | 4:37:53 | |
waterways mean... Including the
waterways set out in the schedule, | 4:37:53 | 4:38:01 | |
that is what we would understand
that the waterways. The banks of | 4:38:01 | 4:38:06 | |
those waterways and any water in the
middle level, which is what this | 4:38:06 | 4:38:12 | |
bill is about. What I take objection
to is... I don't see why it should | 4:38:12 | 4:38:17 | |
include a lake, pond, marina was
substantially enclosed water | 4:38:17 | 4:38:23 | |
adjacent to those waterways. And
from which any vessel may be | 4:38:23 | 4:38:27 | |
navigated, whether or not through a
lock or into the waterways | 4:38:27 | 4:38:30 | |
themselves. If a vessel is navigated
to the waterway, then it is in the | 4:38:30 | 4:38:39 | |
waterway and it is liable under the
provisions of this bill. But if it's | 4:38:39 | 4:38:45 | |
not navigated in there, doesn't seem
to me it is relevant to say it could | 4:38:45 | 4:38:49 | |
be navigated. So this, one way of
reducing the scope of the definition | 4:38:49 | 4:38:57 | |
of waterways, about which the
petitioners remain concerned, would | 4:38:57 | 4:39:00 | |
be to support amendment number five.
When we turn to amendment under six, | 4:39:00 | 4:39:10 | |
which is to clause three, this is a
new clause introduced as a result of | 4:39:10 | 4:39:23 | |
the work of the committee. That
dealt with this. It establishes a | 4:39:23 | 4:39:28 | |
navigation advisory committee. And
the petitioners are very pleased | 4:39:28 | 4:39:33 | |
about that. But they think this
needs further definition and that's | 4:39:33 | 4:39:43 | |
not a criticism of the people who
brought forward this amendment, but | 4:39:43 | 4:39:48 | |
I think, as we know, the way we deal
with legislation in our houses, | 4:39:48 | 4:39:53 | |
sometimes an amendment can be
improved when further considered. | 4:39:53 | 4:40:01 | |
And the concerns of the petitioners
are that the duty on the | 4:40:01 | 4:40:07 | |
commissioners, though it is a good
idea, it gives too much discretion | 4:40:07 | 4:40:10 | |
to the commission is over, for
example, the Constitution of the | 4:40:10 | 4:40:14 | |
proposed navigation advisory
committee. | 4:40:14 | 4:40:21 | |
They think that all many further
consideration and criteria as to the | 4:40:21 | 4:40:25 | |
election and effectiveness of the
committee's advice. The fact the | 4:40:25 | 4:40:29 | |
committee is to consist of persons
appointed by the commissioners who | 4:40:29 | 4:40:32 | |
appeared to be to the commissioners,
representatives put full control | 4:40:32 | 4:40:37 | |
over the membership of the proposed
committee, firmly within the | 4:40:37 | 4:40:41 | |
commissioner's discretion. And if I
looked at amendment number six, that | 4:40:41 | 4:40:48 | |
deals with that particular point,
because amendment number six would | 4:40:48 | 4:40:53 | |
change subsection number two of
section three so that instead of | 4:40:53 | 4:41:01 | |
saying the committee is to consist
of persons appointed by the | 4:41:01 | 4:41:04 | |
commissioners who appeared to the
commissioners to be taken to get a | 4:41:04 | 4:41:08 | |
representative, it would actually
say that who are representative. | 4:41:08 | 4:41:12 | |
What could be the problem was not
that straightforward English | 4:41:12 | 4:41:16 | |
language. Why aren't we going to
have a committee consistent -- | 4:41:16 | 4:41:19 | |
consisted of burst and appointed who
are representative of recreational | 4:41:19 | 4:41:23 | |
motor boating interest in the
waterways, the interest of | 4:41:23 | 4:41:27 | |
individuals who use the vessels and
other navigation issues etc. Why | 4:41:27 | 4:41:30 | |
have such this expression when a
plain English would suffice? I think | 4:41:30 | 4:41:43 | |
the honourable gentleman for the
speech he has given and the point | 4:41:43 | 4:41:45 | |
he's making but would he agree that
slight danger with this amendment if | 4:41:45 | 4:41:49 | |
it says are representative of all
the items meaning someone would have | 4:41:49 | 4:41:52 | |
to represent all those areas when
the whole point of a representative | 4:41:52 | 4:41:54 | |
committee without people who
represent the friend areas, the same | 4:41:54 | 4:41:59 | |
way as we all represent different
uncertainties even though we have | 4:41:59 | 4:42:01 | |
the same duty as a member. The point
my honourable friend makes is a | 4:42:01 | 4:42:06 | |
brilliant one but is nothing to do
with this. Because actually, what it | 4:42:06 | 4:42:11 | |
says is it is not a question of what
they are representative of, because | 4:42:11 | 4:42:16 | |
that spells out. It's a question of
whether they are representative of | 4:42:16 | 4:42:21 | |
those groups set out or whether they
appeared to the commissioners to be | 4:42:21 | 4:42:26 | |
representative of. It seems to me
that it is here, you should be quite | 4:42:26 | 4:42:31 | |
easy to establish whether someone is
representative of these particular | 4:42:31 | 4:42:34 | |
interest, rather than appearing to
be commissioners to be | 4:42:34 | 4:42:37 | |
representative of them, but anyway
that is my response to my honourable | 4:42:37 | 4:42:43 | |
friend's intervention. I had
intended to make a point of order | 4:42:43 | 4:42:53 | |
when he stopped speaking. On the
point of early -- order, earlier | 4:42:53 | 4:42:58 | |
today Toys "R" Us announced the
company has gone into | 4:42:58 | 4:43:02 | |
administration, ramifications in my
constituency. I spent majority of | 4:43:02 | 4:43:08 | |
the day time to get in touch with
administers with no success. Can I | 4:43:08 | 4:43:11 | |
ask if you have been given any
advancement of a statement now and | 4:43:11 | 4:43:15 | |
how can members of Parliament do
their job if they cannot get in | 4:43:15 | 4:43:18 | |
touch with the company to seek
security for the staff that for | 4:43:18 | 4:43:20 | |
them? Normally I would not take the
point of order but as Christopher | 4:43:20 | 4:43:27 | |
has stopped I recognise that would
be a frustration not to get it. | 4:43:27 | 4:43:30 | |
First of all, it's on the record
now. I have been given no notice | 4:43:30 | 4:43:36 | |
from ministerial statement about
this series issue of Toys "R" Us but | 4:43:36 | 4:43:39 | |
I recognise you are representing
your constituents and I hope the | 4:43:39 | 4:43:42 | |
message has gone loud and clear that
Toys "R" Us should be waking up with | 4:43:42 | 4:43:46 | |
the member of Parliament to ensure
that you can represent the workers | 4:43:46 | 4:43:48 | |
right there. Sir Christopher. Mr
Deputy Speaker, thank you. | 4:43:48 | 4:43:54 | |
Unfortunately my children are so old
that they don't benefit from visits | 4:43:54 | 4:44:00 | |
to Toys "R" Us, but anyway it's very
sad when any long-established | 4:44:00 | 4:44:06 | |
business goes into administration.
Mr Deputy Speaker... In terms of the | 4:44:06 | 4:44:22 | |
wording of this about the weather
people are representative or who | 4:44:22 | 4:44:27 | |
appeared to be to the commissioners
to be I wondered whether my | 4:44:27 | 4:44:30 | |
honourable friend thought the
commissioners might hear some kind | 4:44:30 | 4:44:34 | |
of legal action on the basis of
whether or not somebody could be | 4:44:34 | 4:44:37 | |
determined to be a representative
and how that might be the case and | 4:44:37 | 4:44:41 | |
that somebody might say I don't
think these people are | 4:44:41 | 4:44:46 | |
representative for X Y and Z and
therefore it puts the qualification | 4:44:46 | 4:44:49 | |
in to help them get out of a
potentially sticky situation. I | 4:44:49 | 4:44:53 | |
wonder if that was the explanation
for why it was worded as it was. I | 4:44:53 | 4:45:00 | |
think it's a more plausible
explanation than the one being put | 4:45:00 | 4:45:02 | |
forward by our honourable friend. I
think we said enough about that. We | 4:45:02 | 4:45:08 | |
will hear what our honourable friend
thinks about it when he comes to | 4:45:08 | 4:45:12 | |
mind up a response to this debate.
-- wind up. As far as the other | 4:45:12 | 4:45:20 | |
amendment six, seven and eight are
concerned to clause three, the | 4:45:20 | 4:45:28 | |
petitioners are concerned that the
requirement that the commissioners | 4:45:28 | 4:45:34 | |
must take the committee's views into
consideration has limited use | 4:45:34 | 4:45:39 | |
because the commissioners could say
that they have taken those views | 4:45:39 | 4:45:43 | |
into consideration but found them to
be of no value. The only remedy for | 4:45:43 | 4:45:47 | |
in such failure to take the
committee's these properly into | 4:45:47 | 4:45:51 | |
account would be judicial review
which is strictly time-limited, | 4:45:51 | 4:45:54 | |
expensive and hugely unreliable.
With historic by as they think in | 4:45:54 | 4:46:00 | |
favour of authorities. I don't know
about that, but certainly they are | 4:46:00 | 4:46:05 | |
right in saying that judicial review
is a long and expensive way of | 4:46:05 | 4:46:12 | |
seeking redress. So, in the lives of
those concerns, I put forward | 4:46:12 | 4:46:18 | |
amendment number seven, which says
that instead of the commissioners, | 4:46:18 | 4:46:22 | |
this is in subsection six of clause
number three, instead of the | 4:46:22 | 4:46:28 | |
Commissioner requiring commissioners
must take into consideration any | 4:46:28 | 4:46:30 | |
matter, the commissioners must give
full consideration because there's a | 4:46:30 | 4:46:36 | |
difference between taking into
consideration and giving | 4:46:36 | 4:46:38 | |
consideration is seems to me, and
that if the commissioners give full | 4:46:38 | 4:46:43 | |
consideration to any matter that
would be useful and to reinforce | 4:46:43 | 4:46:48 | |
that point, at the end, amendment
number eight which would add at the | 4:46:48 | 4:46:53 | |
end, they give full consideration to
any matter, recommendation, | 4:46:53 | 4:46:56 | |
representation which may from time
to time be referred or made to them | 4:46:56 | 4:46:59 | |
by the committee and the Sobhi
amendment number eight and in the | 4:46:59 | 4:47:01 | |
advent of -- event of not accepting
such representation or | 4:47:01 | 4:47:06 | |
recommendation give full reason for
that decision. It seems to me that | 4:47:06 | 4:47:09 | |
what provide the sort of protection
that the petitioners are seeking and | 4:47:09 | 4:47:15 | |
would actually strengthen clause
three and make clause three and even | 4:47:15 | 4:47:21 | |
more effective addition to this bill
than it is currently. Turning now to | 4:47:21 | 4:47:31 | |
amendment clause four and amendment
nine, amendment nine would be to | 4:47:31 | 4:47:39 | |
leave out subsection number two of
clause four, and this is in essence | 4:47:39 | 4:47:52 | |
a probing amendment to draw
attention to this whole issue, | 4:47:52 | 4:47:57 | |
because as my honourable friend said
in an earlier intervention, this | 4:47:57 | 4:48:01 | |
whole issue of charges and
constraints upon the way in which | 4:48:01 | 4:48:05 | |
charges can be made is a useful
amendment to the Bill. But I'm | 4:48:05 | 4:48:12 | |
suggesting that it could be linked
more specifically with each of the | 4:48:12 | 4:48:17 | |
different uses for it which charges
will be recoverable, and therefore | 4:48:17 | 4:48:24 | |
in amendment number ten, I'm
suggesting that in exercising the | 4:48:24 | 4:48:31 | |
power and subs -- power under
subsection 18 rather than the will | 4:48:31 | 4:48:35 | |
of section one the commissioners
must aim to secure that taking | 4:48:35 | 4:48:39 | |
one... Does not exceed the
annualized cost incurred by | 4:48:39 | 4:48:47 | |
commissioners in respect of
navigation under the navigation act | 4:48:47 | 4:48:49 | |
and it seems that that is relating
to the use of any waterway by any | 4:48:49 | 4:48:55 | |
vessel. Those would be the charges
for the use of the waterway and they | 4:48:55 | 4:48:59 | |
would link indirectly with the
functions in respect of navigation | 4:48:59 | 4:49:04 | |
under the navigation act. I'm a much
more dubious about the linking in | 4:49:04 | 4:49:11 | |
the reasonable charges for the
provision of services and facilities | 4:49:11 | 4:49:17 | |
in respect of the waterways and
their banks because those... They | 4:49:17 | 4:49:22 | |
not linked in with taking... They're
not separated out from the more | 4:49:22 | 4:49:30 | |
general and nor is there a
requirement for registration of any | 4:49:30 | 4:49:37 | |
vessel under navigation bylaws. It
seems to me that those charges | 4:49:37 | 4:49:43 | |
should be separately identified and
accounted for and undergo the test | 4:49:43 | 4:49:52 | |
of taking one financial year with
another that the charges under those | 4:49:52 | 4:49:55 | |
subsections should not exceed the
annualized cost. So, this is a | 4:49:55 | 4:50:02 | |
refinement of clause four, but I
think it would actually improve | 4:50:02 | 4:50:12 | |
clause number four significantly.
And if one looks at amendment number | 4:50:12 | 4:50:23 | |
11... Again, this is dealing with
this issue, but that refers to the | 4:50:23 | 4:50:37 | |
annualized issue and then what I
wanted to do also was draw attention | 4:50:37 | 4:50:46 | |
to amendment number 12, which covers
that as well saying that | 4:50:46 | 4:50:51 | |
commissioners may revise, weight or
remove any charge pics under | 4:50:51 | 4:50:53 | |
subsection one AA in different
charges may be fixed for different | 4:50:53 | 4:50:59 | |
cases or classes. -- 1A. It would be
extending the discretion may have, | 4:50:59 | 4:51:06 | |
but making sure there were specific
to the different categories of | 4:51:06 | 4:51:10 | |
activity for which they can recover
charges. Amendment number 13 is | 4:51:10 | 4:51:20 | |
again a probing amendment. It is to
leave out subsection number four. I | 4:51:20 | 4:51:28 | |
was wondering whether we could hear
some more explanation as to why the | 4:51:28 | 4:51:33 | |
commissioners want to make use of
the services and facilities referred | 4:51:33 | 4:51:36 | |
to in subsection 1B subject to such
terms and conditions as may be | 4:51:36 | 4:51:44 | |
specified in writing and I'm sure
that it would be Fozz -- possible to | 4:51:44 | 4:51:48 | |
get an explanation of that. I think
the most radical amendment that I | 4:51:48 | 4:51:55 | |
put forward in relation to clause
number four, and I hope this will | 4:51:55 | 4:51:59 | |
find favour with members of the
House right across the House, and | 4:51:59 | 4:52:04 | |
that is amendment number 14 at the
end which we say no charge of the | 4:52:04 | 4:52:11 | |
parable in respect to these of a
waterway by a vessel being used by a | 4:52:11 | 4:52:15 | |
person whose registered disabled. Mr
Deputy Speaker, the reason I raised | 4:52:15 | 4:52:22 | |
it is because it's quite an issue
about disability and the use of | 4:52:22 | 4:52:30 | |
waterways and the use of powers
similar to the powers which are | 4:52:30 | 4:52:35 | |
being sought by the promoters of
this bill. And those powers have on | 4:52:35 | 4:52:45 | |
occasions than I think one can say
abused, and people who are disabled | 4:52:45 | 4:52:53 | |
have found themselves pillared and
discriminated against quite | 4:52:53 | 4:53:03 | |
severely. And why should it not be
possible to exempt disabled people | 4:53:03 | 4:53:10 | |
from the provisions of these
charges? There is a press cutting | 4:53:10 | 4:53:17 | |
that I've been sent from April 2015,
from Wiltshire, where a disabled | 4:53:17 | 4:53:25 | |
boat owner living on the canal was
faced with up to £76,000 in cost as | 4:53:25 | 4:53:35 | |
a result of action being taken,
which the people who are acting on | 4:53:35 | 4:53:42 | |
his behalf, the trust, they took the
view that it was a... Instead of | 4:53:42 | 4:53:56 | |
allowing this disabled individual
who was living on incapacity | 4:53:56 | 4:54:04 | |
benefits and disability living
allowance is, instead of allowing | 4:54:04 | 4:54:07 | |
him to repair his boat over a period
of time, they imposed strict | 4:54:07 | 4:54:16 | |
conditions of his license and
required him to vacate not only his | 4:54:16 | 4:54:21 | |
boat, but also what was his home and
insult was added to injury by the | 4:54:21 | 4:54:28 | |
fact that he was denied legal aid
and the legal officer of the | 4:54:28 | 4:54:36 | |
national chattels association
represented him instead -- national | 4:54:36 | 4:54:42 | |
travellers Association. I'm just
waiting to see how it links in with | 4:54:42 | 4:54:46 | |
the Bill. It linked in with
amendment number 14, because | 4:54:46 | 4:54:51 | |
amendment number 14 would exempt...
I'm more bothered about the canal | 4:54:51 | 4:54:57 | |
and that particular individual was
not actually on the middle levels or | 4:54:57 | 4:55:01 | |
affected by it, so I understand in
reference, but not in detail. I | 4:55:01 | 4:55:05 | |
accept we don't want to go into
anymore detail than I've already | 4:55:05 | 4:55:09 | |
done, Mr Deputy Speaker. But the
analogy is that the powers that are | 4:55:09 | 4:55:15 | |
being sought in this bill by the
middle level commissioners are | 4:55:15 | 4:55:18 | |
almost identical to the powers which
have already been obtained by other | 4:55:18 | 4:55:24 | |
organizations such as the canal and
river trust which operates on the | 4:55:24 | 4:55:31 | |
Kenneth Navin canal. I get way. | 4:55:31 | 4:55:36 | |
Can you tell me, is there a serious
demand from disabled people from the | 4:55:36 | 4:55:44 | |
community to actually have this
extension? Because I have a number | 4:55:44 | 4:55:47 | |
of disabled constituents, and as I
have pointed out, Mr Deputy Speaker, | 4:55:47 | 4:55:57 | |
there are many versions of my
constituency who, I have not come | 4:55:57 | 4:56:05 | |
across any demand from disabled
people. We have great respect for | 4:56:05 | 4:56:11 | |
disabled community, but is he really
saying that the requirement, or | 4:56:11 | 4:56:16 | |
decide to give an exemption from the
charges, and make this much more | 4:56:16 | 4:56:21 | |
bureaucratic and also, they're very
proud and do they really want is | 4:56:21 | 4:56:27 | |
exemption? They'd only get the
exemption if they apply for it. | 4:56:27 | 4:56:34 | |
Disabled people are proud and I have
a lot of disabled members of my | 4:56:34 | 4:56:41 | |
constituency. But that does not mean
that they don't benefit or cherish | 4:56:41 | 4:56:44 | |
the ability to park their cars using
the benefit of the parking permit. | 4:56:44 | 4:56:54 | |
But the answer, the direct answer to
my honourable friends intervention, | 4:56:54 | 4:56:59 | |
I have not received any
representations prior to the speech | 4:56:59 | 4:57:03 | |
from disabled constituents of his.
If I had, I would have preferred | 4:57:03 | 4:57:07 | |
them to him. The canal and river
trust dealing with this issue in | 4:57:07 | 4:57:16 | |
Wiltshire, they accepted in
principle, that they should not have | 4:57:16 | 4:57:21 | |
enforcement taken against them, as
they would taken against an | 4:57:21 | 4:57:26 | |
able-bodied person. But they have
not yet been very keen to | 4:57:26 | 4:57:32 | |
communicate that policy to disabled
people there. But, all I can say is | 4:57:32 | 4:57:39 | |
that, when one looks at the way in
which these pounds have been used in | 4:57:39 | 4:57:43 | |
other parts of the country, and
waterways, then there is a potential | 4:57:43 | 4:57:51 | |
issue here. I've insured that it is
discussed, as we know and the other | 4:57:51 | 4:58:02 | |
place, there is even more interest
in promoting the cause of disabled | 4:58:02 | 4:58:09 | |
people than there is in this house,
I think. And it may be that when | 4:58:09 | 4:58:14 | |
this bill gets to the other place,
that they will wish to pursue the | 4:58:14 | 4:58:19 | |
content of amendment 14 if it is
accepted today. So, Mr Deputy | 4:58:19 | 4:58:28 | |
Speaker, that takes on to the
amendments 15 and 16. And these are | 4:58:28 | 4:58:39 | |
amendments, not designed to leave
out clauses five and seven, and I | 4:58:39 | 4:58:45 | |
put them in order to enable us to
have a debate on the content of | 4:58:45 | 4:58:53 | |
those clauses should it be thought
desirable. But, having regard to the | 4:58:53 | 4:59:00 | |
time, it seems to me that probably
the best thing to do would be to not | 4:59:00 | 4:59:07 | |
speak to those amendments, but to
get on and go on to one or two... My | 4:59:07 | 4:59:13 | |
honourable friend says that that is
a shame, but... Anyway! One each on | 4:59:13 | 4:59:21 | |
that one! He wanted to make a
very... Because the river depending | 4:59:21 | 4:59:35 | |
on which part of my constituents you
are, flows into this. So what causes | 4:59:35 | 4:59:41 | |
a wider issue. I think it's very
important that my honourable friend | 4:59:41 | 4:59:57 | |
has been able to put an interest in
this subject matter. In the way that | 4:59:57 | 5:00:01 | |
he has. We then get onto the
amendment number, let's turn the | 5:00:01 | 5:00:10 | |
right page over, amendment number
17, page eight clause nine, leave | 5:00:10 | 5:00:19 | |
subsection three. One can see that,
line 35, this is about when, this | 5:00:19 | 5:00:37 | |
the deal with clause nine, and what
it would do is add or remove the | 5:00:37 | 5:00:44 | |
provision that says whenever it
vehicles left, unless it is not | 5:00:44 | 5:00:55 | |
passable Centura, race and remove
the vessel. While it's quite clear, | 5:00:55 | 5:01:08 | |
and the other parts of the clause
that if a vehicle, the vessel is | 5:01:08 | 5:01:13 | |
abandoned in the waterway and is
absolutely interfering with the | 5:01:13 | 5:01:18 | |
navigation. Then obviously it needs
to be removed very quickly. But when | 5:01:18 | 5:01:22 | |
one takes into account, Mr Deputy
Speaker, the very wide definition | 5:01:22 | 5:01:27 | |
that there is of waterway, which
have already spoken, it seems to me | 5:01:27 | 5:01:34 | |
the inclusion of subsection three is
potentially oppressive. Because, it | 5:01:34 | 5:01:43 | |
means that the commission is going
to, for example, enter a Marina and | 5:01:43 | 5:01:51 | |
take action and remove the vessel at
a considerable cost. No more than 28 | 5:01:51 | 5:02:04 | |
days of notice. So that amendment is
to leave out that power from the | 5:02:04 | 5:02:10 | |
bill. And clause... Can I just come
on out to close 11, which is to deal | 5:02:10 | 5:02:27 | |
with the requirements of
registration and clause page 12, | 5:02:27 | 5:02:37 | |
clause 11. It includes a very
important amendment, which is | 5:02:37 | 5:02:47 | |
promoted by the cruising club and
others, and this relates to the | 5:02:47 | 5:02:52 | |
level of charges that can be...
Increased in any one year. And what | 5:02:52 | 5:03:04 | |
it does is, it introduces a
requirement that such charges do not | 5:03:04 | 5:03:09 | |
increase above inflation. And the
reason for that is because many of | 5:03:09 | 5:03:16 | |
the people who are boaters and,
maybe some of them are represented | 5:03:16 | 5:03:24 | |
by my honourable friends here this
evening, many of those people are | 5:03:24 | 5:03:29 | |
not very well-off and financial
terms, and they need to be owed to | 5:03:29 | 5:03:35 | |
plan their budgets and cares and
what the costs are going to be of | 5:03:35 | 5:03:41 | |
having a vessel on the waterway,
they need to have a surgeon to for | 5:03:41 | 5:03:48 | |
example that the charges are going
to be level and cannot increase by | 5:03:48 | 5:03:52 | |
more than the rate of CPI index
every year. Mr Deputy Speaker, | 5:03:52 | 5:04:00 | |
counsel tenses, counsel | 5:04:00 | 5:04:06 | |
every year. Mr Deputy Speaker,
counsel tenses, counsel, they have | 5:04:06 | 5:04:07 | |
made some exceptions to that
recently, the general proposition is | 5:04:07 | 5:04:12 | |
that they can not be increased by
more than CPI. And then, I am going | 5:04:12 | 5:04:21 | |
to rush to the last amendment.
Because... OnNet | 5:04:21 | 5:04:32 | |
that the bill doesn't state
initially what the themes are, would | 5:04:35 | 5:04:41 | |
you not preferred the bills stayed
with that should be? As wise as I | 5:04:41 | 5:04:51 | |
would like to agree, I think the
level of fees, this got to be some | 5:04:51 | 5:04:59 | |
discretion. The level of the fees
needs to relate to the duties of the | 5:04:59 | 5:05:04 | |
game to be carried out. And funded
by the seas. -- fees. The money for | 5:05:04 | 5:05:16 | |
the fees has to be spent
particularly on navigation. You do | 5:05:16 | 5:05:26 | |
not need to explain were very
discussed, and I know you're not | 5:05:26 | 5:05:29 | |
attempting to do the. This is
amendment number 26, clause 15, | 5:05:29 | 5:05:42 | |
line... The protocol of removing
vessels, the commissioners must in | 5:05:42 | 5:05:50 | |
consultation with the navigation
adviser committee, publish and | 5:05:50 | 5:05:54 | |
maintain a protocol by virtue. In my
amendment is, instead of in | 5:05:54 | 5:06:03 | |
consultation with, in conjunction
with. Because it seems that the | 5:06:03 | 5:06:09 | |
advisory committee should be working
jointly with the commissioners, | 5:06:09 | 5:06:14 | |
rather than adjusting consultation
with the commissioners of this | 5:06:14 | 5:06:18 | |
important matter. So that, that that
amendment. And when we look at the | 5:06:18 | 5:06:35 | |
subparagraph on subsection four of
clause 14. That again is an | 5:06:35 | 5:06:41 | |
amendment to try and reduce the
powers conferred upon the | 5:06:41 | 5:06:45 | |
commissioners under way that they
have been exercise. As he said at | 5:06:45 | 5:06:53 | |
the beginning, this is a much and
improved bill compared to what it | 5:06:53 | 5:07:00 | |
was. It obviously would not be
possible to test the will of the | 5:07:00 | 5:07:06 | |
house on each one. And I'm glad that
you agree with me, Mr Deputy Speaker | 5:07:06 | 5:07:16 | |
on a proposition. But I know the
motives of the bill are worrying, | 5:07:16 | 5:07:25 | |
because you're discussing these
things today, whether night means | 5:07:25 | 5:07:28 | |
they'll be discussed further when
the bill gets to the other place. | 5:07:28 | 5:07:35 | |
And I my understanding, when the
bill goes into the other place, | 5:07:35 | 5:07:38 | |
there are many people will put in
petitions and I ensure that the | 5:07:38 | 5:07:45 | |
other place will build upon the
discussions that we are having on | 5:07:45 | 5:07:53 | |
this bill. So that eventually the
bill will be even better than it is | 5:07:53 | 5:07:56 | |
now. I beg to move clause one. | 5:07:56 | 5:08:10 | |
Thank you very much, Mr Deputy
Speaker. I am proud to respond, I | 5:08:12 | 5:08:18 | |
may not be the most conventional
way, the detailed reservation of the | 5:08:18 | 5:08:24 | |
honourable member for chair, it does
make sense, and we wish to support | 5:08:24 | 5:08:32 | |
the bill is it stands. While it is
narrow in scope, it has | 5:08:32 | 5:08:38 | |
satisfactory, and is taking place in
committee and stations at an end. | 5:08:38 | 5:08:46 | |
The mid-level of defence try to
retain | 5:08:46 | 5:08:53 | |
pass between 1663 and 1874, so we
appreciate that the legislative | 5:08:58 | 5:09:05 | |
framework want to pay the
commissioners is in need of an | 5:09:05 | 5:09:07 | |
update. Because all of the all of
the mainland is below sea level, the | 5:09:07 | 5:09:17 | |
waterways could pose a significant
risk to the estimated hundred | 5:09:17 | 5:09:21 | |
thousand people living and working
in the area. In the simplest terms, | 5:09:21 | 5:09:25 | |
this will allow the commissioners to
bring in revenue from boat owners, | 5:09:25 | 5:09:31 | |
which will be used to improve the
waterways. The agency denial which | 5:09:31 | 5:09:35 | |
are trust, all similar powers in | 5:09:35 | 5:09:39 | |
an line with his neighbours, it can
make a real difference and the | 5:09:43 | 5:09:51 | |
waterways, though I appreciate the
desire from local boat users from | 5:09:51 | 5:09:56 | |
facilities as he heard, this will
allow the commissioners to raise | 5:09:56 | 5:09:59 | |
revenue to deliver this. The chief
executive commissioners, has said | 5:09:59 | 5:10:05 | |
around 1500 vessels and use their
looks every year, and are on a | 5:10:05 | 5:10:10 | |
hundred bucks are hiding unlicensed
on the waterway. He believes that is | 5:10:10 | 5:10:14 | |
the largest reservoir in the
country. I cannot something | 5:10:14 | 5:10:22 | |
organisation but owners said they
should be done I cannot think bill | 5:10:22 | 5:10:29 | |
could be a money gathering excess of
the commissions. However there are | 5:10:29 | 5:10:32 | |
positions and the bill, as outlined
already which prevent the | 5:10:32 | 5:10:40 | |
commissioners from raising more
navigation revenue then they spend | 5:10:40 | 5:10:43 | |
on navigation. This is not simply a
matter of money gathering, and that | 5:10:43 | 5:10:50 | |
proper safeguards are in place. They
also noted that the waterways is | 5:10:50 | 5:11:01 | |
associated, the residential boat
owners Association, the Association | 5:11:01 | 5:11:04 | |
of waterway cruising clubs, would
support the bill, I understand they | 5:11:04 | 5:11:10 | |
remain in support. So the detailed
reservations, at some of the | 5:11:10 | 5:11:16 | |
interventions from others. | 5:11:16 | 5:11:22 | |
I wondered whether or not she had
any sympathy for any of the | 5:11:22 | 5:11:26 | |
amendments put forward by my
honourable friend and in particular | 5:11:26 | 5:11:29 | |
the one about the no charge being
payable for the use of the waterway | 5:11:29 | 5:11:32 | |
by a vessel being used by a person
whose registered disabled. Is that | 5:11:32 | 5:11:36 | |
not something that the Labour Party
would welcome? And grateful for that | 5:11:36 | 5:11:42 | |
intervention. Andersen he makes a
valid point and we will want to | 5:11:42 | 5:11:45 | |
increase the accessibility so that
everyone can enjoy the waterways. It | 5:11:45 | 5:11:49 | |
is certainly something we would
consider further in later | 5:11:49 | 5:11:51 | |
discussions on the Bill but not
something that we will be seeing go | 5:11:51 | 5:11:54 | |
to a vote later today. Taking all
this into account, Mr Speaker, Mr | 5:11:54 | 5:12:00 | |
Deputy Speaker, we are satisfied
this bill is sensible in updating | 5:12:00 | 5:12:04 | |
the legal framework that sets out
the role of the middle level | 5:12:04 | 5:12:07 | |
commissioners bringing them into
line with what now standard practice | 5:12:07 | 5:12:11 | |
across comparable waterways. Despite
its unusual journey through | 5:12:11 | 5:12:14 | |
Westminster we have no problems in
supporting this bill this afternoon. | 5:12:14 | 5:12:19 | |
Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. It's a
pleasure to get another opportunity | 5:12:19 | 5:12:23 | |
to speak in relation to this bill.
Given its already been through a | 5:12:23 | 5:12:26 | |
second readings I will focus my
remarks on the amendments we have | 5:12:26 | 5:12:30 | |
today and the changes made in
committee. As it's been referred to | 5:12:30 | 5:12:35 | |
by the honourable member for Halifax
there's been a number of positive | 5:12:35 | 5:12:37 | |
changes that were made in this bill
to respond to the petitioners | 5:12:37 | 5:12:40 | |
concern and I was grateful to hear
in the opening remarks from the | 5:12:40 | 5:12:45 | |
honourable member how he referred to
the fact that there have been | 5:12:45 | 5:12:47 | |
changes made in people had been
listening to what was said. But I do | 5:12:47 | 5:12:52 | |
think it's appropriate to briefly go
through and say why I don't think | 5:12:52 | 5:12:56 | |
it's appropriate for the amendment
and the New Clause is proposed to be | 5:12:56 | 5:13:01 | |
accepted. Briefly in terms of New
Clause one it sets a minimum | 5:13:01 | 5:13:03 | |
navigation that's lower than the one
under current legislation. New | 5:13:03 | 5:13:13 | |
Clause at number two, three, four
and five referred to specific | 5:13:13 | 5:13:16 | |
facilities that could be provided.
The thing is it was suggested in one | 5:13:16 | 5:13:20 | |
of the interventions made it does
not seem logical to pursue on the | 5:13:20 | 5:13:23 | |
face of statute where we have things
like a coin-operated water shower. | 5:13:23 | 5:13:27 | |
It also means we have dangers of
this legislation becoming completely | 5:13:27 | 5:13:32 | |
outdated if it fits on the front of
a primary piece of legislation. It | 5:13:32 | 5:13:36 | |
does also make sense for the uses by
the mechanisms proposed in the Bill | 5:13:36 | 5:13:41 | |
to be able to discuss what are the
appropriate facilities? And also for | 5:13:41 | 5:13:45 | |
example by including some of these
items it means that if they don't | 5:13:45 | 5:13:49 | |
get planning permission for example
it could render particular powers | 5:13:49 | 5:13:52 | |
any effective and therefore I would
urge the House to reject all the | 5:13:52 | 5:13:56 | |
Clause is proposed. Very briefly I
will give way. I certainly take the | 5:13:56 | 5:14:03 | |
point he makes on the other specific
points, but New Clause five does not | 5:14:03 | 5:14:08 | |
actually have anything specific, it
just maintains that something should | 5:14:08 | 5:14:13 | |
be in good repair and working order
so I wondered if that New Clause was | 5:14:13 | 5:14:17 | |
not accepted, what with the
appropriate remedy be for the | 5:14:17 | 5:14:22 | |
boaters to make sure they were not
paying for something they weren't | 5:14:22 | 5:14:24 | |
able to actually use? I think the
honourable member for his | 5:14:24 | 5:14:28 | |
intervention. I think what we are
clear about is the way New Clause | 5:14:28 | 5:14:32 | |
four was amended means that income
can only been used for navigation | 5:14:32 | 5:14:37 | |
purposes and income navigation
purposes, and ultimately there | 5:14:37 | 5:14:40 | |
becomes a chicken and egg situation.
If the commissioners are going to | 5:14:40 | 5:14:44 | |
provide the type of facilities
people want to see on the middle | 5:14:44 | 5:14:47 | |
level, in consultation with
navigation users, there will need to | 5:14:47 | 5:14:50 | |
be money raised to provide those
facilities. The alternative is to | 5:14:50 | 5:14:55 | |
ask those paying for drainage to
provide the secured -- the abilities | 5:14:55 | 5:14:59 | |
to be provided initially which is
neither a fair or applicable way of | 5:14:59 | 5:15:03 | |
looking to get the resources into
actually pay for the facilities to | 5:15:03 | 5:15:07 | |
be provided. This cannot be a money
raising exercise. It's absolutely | 5:15:07 | 5:15:10 | |
clear what the purpose of any money
raised by navigation are for. People | 5:15:10 | 5:15:16 | |
are already paying council tax in
terms of drainage and via a. On the | 5:15:16 | 5:15:23 | |
question of navigation I wonder if
you could help me understand whether | 5:15:23 | 5:15:29 | |
this historical public right of
navigation by extending those powers | 5:15:29 | 5:15:33 | |
into privately owned waters and
private Marines, would that give the | 5:15:33 | 5:15:36 | |
middle level commissioners complete
control to charge boats with | 5:15:36 | 5:15:43 | |
licensed these? I thank the
honourable member for Peterborough | 5:15:43 | 5:15:47 | |
for her intervention and an
amendment was made to the billing | 5:15:47 | 5:15:50 | |
committee to make clear that where
someone owns the waterways and | 5:15:50 | 5:15:53 | |
branded properties only there is
that would not extending the powers | 5:15:53 | 5:15:57 | |
to there. In terms of the marinas
themselves it's worth noting they | 5:15:57 | 5:16:01 | |
permitted that promoted the Bill the
marinas covered have wish to be | 5:16:01 | 5:16:05 | |
included within this. In case of the
marinas there is no definition | 5:16:05 | 5:16:09 | |
between the water. You're not
talking a lock or key, we are | 5:16:09 | 5:16:13 | |
talking there's no waterway so there
has been a wish to manage it as a | 5:16:13 | 5:16:16 | |
whole system. For example
registration applies across a lot to | 5:16:16 | 5:16:20 | |
me don't have different safety
standards are different insurance | 5:16:20 | 5:16:23 | |
requirements which should be a
benefit to her constituents. Coming | 5:16:23 | 5:16:27 | |
on to burst of the amendments,
amendment number one -- first of the | 5:16:27 | 5:16:32 | |
imminent. He talked about extending
the time period for bringing this | 5:16:32 | 5:16:35 | |
bill into effect. It's worth noting
that in terms of many of the | 5:16:35 | 5:16:39 | |
provisions around construction and
use -- he's their the month | 5:16:39 | 5:16:44 | |
transition period has been
undertaken but he does not make | 5:16:44 | 5:16:46 | |
sense to lay off all the provisions
of this bill for that link the | 5:16:46 | 5:16:50 | |
period. For example promoters of new
duty to have regard to the interest | 5:16:50 | 5:16:53 | |
of both dwellers bass boat dwellers,
that would not make sense to delay. | 5:16:53 | 5:16:57 | |
In relation to amendment number two,
I think it is quite clear, where did | 5:16:57 | 5:17:05 | |
the any other event that come from?
It is similar to the requirements | 5:17:05 | 5:17:09 | |
under the environment agency's
powers to control discharges into | 5:17:09 | 5:17:12 | |
water for work purposes under
section 163 of the water resources | 5:17:12 | 5:17:17 | |
act, 1991. If the well-established
definition I hope that will reassure | 5:17:17 | 5:17:20 | |
him. In terms of amendment number
three, he said it was a probing | 5:17:20 | 5:17:26 | |
amendment. The issue is adding
electric vehicles onto the end of a | 5:17:26 | 5:17:29 | |
provision that also includes power
vehicles under sail. I think does | 5:17:29 | 5:17:34 | |
not take account where technology
could go as he alluded to in the | 5:17:34 | 5:17:37 | |
fact that electric motors are
becoming much more powerful, | 5:17:37 | 5:17:40 | |
certainly far more powerful than a
sealed vessel ended up not make | 5:17:40 | 5:17:43 | |
sense for that to be excluded
although as I say I noted he said it | 5:17:43 | 5:17:48 | |
was a probing amendment. Amendment
number four, it would actually have | 5:17:48 | 5:17:54 | |
issues that the promoters would find
unacceptable as it potentially them | 5:17:54 | 5:18:01 | |
-- removes the need for a static
vessel to meet construction and | 5:18:01 | 5:18:04 | |
safety standards or insurance
requirements. I think given the | 5:18:04 | 5:18:08 | |
issues we have been debating over
the past year view left with a | 5:18:08 | 5:18:11 | |
indispensable that houseboats don't
have those. Moving on to amendment | 5:18:11 | 5:18:16 | |
number five. This extends the
commissioner's powers in an odd way | 5:18:16 | 5:18:21 | |
and could see them having to be
required to dig out virtually every | 5:18:21 | 5:18:27 | |
watercourse in the area, which is
not actually unnavigable course, so | 5:18:27 | 5:18:30 | |
again that's not an amendment would
suggest. The idea of having a | 5:18:30 | 5:18:36 | |
waterway sonnet does not really
reflect the fact that the idea that | 5:18:36 | 5:18:40 | |
taking care of by the change made
around someone's own boat in their | 5:18:40 | 5:18:44 | |
own property and only they use that.
I would be very different parking it | 5:18:44 | 5:18:47 | |
in a marina for example, the
equivalent of parking it in a public | 5:18:47 | 5:18:50 | |
car park. Coming onto some of the
other amendments. Number six, I made | 5:18:50 | 5:18:59 | |
the point in my intervention about
how this could require that this | 5:18:59 | 5:19:05 | |
would potentially allow challenges,
the honourable member pointed out | 5:19:05 | 5:19:09 | |
around who had been appointed, if
someone felt that they did not | 5:19:09 | 5:19:13 | |
represent them. We did not yield...
I don't feel that an appropriate or | 5:19:13 | 5:19:16 | |
helpful addition to the Bill and
that would potentially make it easy | 5:19:16 | 5:19:21 | |
to challenge the advisory committee
and frustrate its establishment. | 5:19:21 | 5:19:26 | |
Coming onto his further amendments,
nine, 16 and 22. One of the reasons | 5:19:26 | 5:19:36 | |
for not wishing to accept these
amendments is that the point of | 5:19:36 | 5:19:41 | |
making this a practical power is to
have a simple registration claim | 5:19:41 | 5:19:46 | |
that can be enforced. Getting into
an argument about whether a boat is | 5:19:46 | 5:19:49 | |
being used or not seems neither
sensible nor appropriate, | 5:19:49 | 5:19:53 | |
particularly if we are talking about
looking to have basic construction | 5:19:53 | 5:19:57 | |
and safety standards and insurance
standards. In exactly the same way | 5:19:57 | 5:20:01 | |
as if you park a car on a public
road it does not matter if you are | 5:20:01 | 5:20:04 | |
driving or not it needs to be
roadworthy and have a vehicle tax. | 5:20:04 | 5:20:10 | |
Therefore this is a president that's
similar in other areas of | 5:20:10 | 5:20:14 | |
legislation, so again I would
suggest that these amendments are | 5:20:14 | 5:20:17 | |
both unwelcome and unnecessary. In
terms of amendments ten and 11, the | 5:20:17 | 5:20:25 | |
Bill makes it very clear, the
provision and how the cost from | 5:20:25 | 5:20:33 | |
navigation would be used to fund
benefits for navigation. Therefore | 5:20:33 | 5:20:37 | |
again I don't believe either of
these are necessary. As for | 5:20:37 | 5:20:41 | |
amendments 12 and 13 then we do
not... It does not seem | 5:20:41 | 5:20:48 | |
unreasonable. For example allowing
the commissioners to set conditions | 5:20:48 | 5:20:52 | |
on use facilities such as clean
showers afterwards and not abusing | 5:20:52 | 5:20:56 | |
waste facilities, does not seem an
unreasonable thing for them to wish | 5:20:56 | 5:21:00 | |
to do and could completely
undermined the purposes of providing | 5:21:00 | 5:21:03 | |
those facilities if they are not
able to provide a basic regulation | 5:21:03 | 5:21:07 | |
system for how they are used, which
have been common in many, many other | 5:21:07 | 5:21:13 | |
environments. Amendment number 14, I
appreciate the honourable member's | 5:21:13 | 5:21:17 | |
process for ensuring disabled people
have a strong voice in this chamber | 5:21:17 | 5:21:21 | |
and I know along with the Member for
Shipley, he's a passionate advocate | 5:21:21 | 5:21:25 | |
around you quality had his pursuit
of the women and equality committee. | 5:21:25 | 5:21:28 | |
The one way I would make, it's quite
flawed because it refers to -- the | 5:21:28 | 5:21:34 | |
1.I would make, it refers to a
registered disabled when the | 5:21:34 | 5:21:37 | |
registered disabled person with a
polity by the disability act so as | 5:21:37 | 5:21:43 | |
the House would not be sensible to
bring that in. I would also urge the | 5:21:43 | 5:21:48 | |
House to reject... Very briefly. I'm
very grateful. I appreciate his | 5:21:48 | 5:21:54 | |
ability to find a technical reason
why he should not accept the | 5:21:54 | 5:21:58 | |
amendment, but does he accept the
principle behind the amendment? We | 5:21:58 | 5:22:04 | |
are in report stage and the jobs
look at the technical detail of the | 5:22:04 | 5:22:10 | |
Bill. Do I support the principle? I
think it's about my own counsel for | 5:22:10 | 5:22:15 | |
example or does not offer a parking
concession and fees to those who | 5:22:15 | 5:22:20 | |
hold a blue badge on the inability
to use reserved space is very close | 5:22:20 | 5:22:25 | |
so that principle is established in
many areas, so again I don't think | 5:22:25 | 5:22:28 | |
the principle of this is one to take
for. This is not about for example | 5:22:28 | 5:22:33 | |
someone needing an extra facility
because they are disabled. This is | 5:22:33 | 5:22:37 | |
about a boat on the navigation and
wherever they pay the same charge as | 5:22:37 | 5:22:41 | |
everyone else, that treated exactly
the same. -- effectively treated | 5:22:41 | 5:22:46 | |
exactly the same. It does not seem
to make any sense to remove the | 5:22:46 | 5:22:50 | |
ability to promote reciprocal
arrangements and could end up | 5:22:50 | 5:22:53 | |
costing boat owners more if they
have to have separate licenses and | 5:22:53 | 5:22:59 | |
separate registration and different
standards, so again I would urge the | 5:22:59 | 5:23:02 | |
House to reject amendments 15 and
16. Coming onto amendment 17, 18, 19 | 5:23:02 | 5:23:08 | |
and 20, again there will be a
protocol put in place so I don't | 5:23:08 | 5:23:11 | |
accept the suggestion that the
existing powers would be oppressive. | 5:23:11 | 5:23:16 | |
Removal of the health boat would
only be done in the last result in | 5:23:16 | 5:23:20 | |
where it's proportionate to do so.
-- of a houseboat. Coming to a | 5:23:20 | 5:23:24 | |
conclusion, amendment number 23
seems to make little sense to only | 5:23:24 | 5:23:28 | |
apply to this particular cap to the
application fee and not the | 5:23:28 | 5:23:33 | |
registration fee, it could produce
reverse a long one and again suggest | 5:23:33 | 5:23:38 | |
it ejected. The same goes, he talked
about amendment number 26. My own | 5:23:38 | 5:23:43 | |
view is that this would confuse the
Bill as if things are being done in | 5:23:43 | 5:23:51 | |
conjunction with rather than
consultation. If someone wishes to | 5:23:51 | 5:23:55 | |
take legal action would've a ticket
against? They could take it against | 5:23:55 | 5:23:59 | |
members of the navigator a committee
-- and it could act as a deterrent | 5:23:59 | 5:24:05 | |
for anyone wanting to be involved.
Madam Deputy Speaker, there are many | 5:24:05 | 5:24:10 | |
good reasons for this bill to pass.
It's been examined in great depth in | 5:24:10 | 5:24:15 | |
opposed a bill committee and on the
floor of this House. I thank the | 5:24:15 | 5:24:19 | |
honourable member for Christchurch
where his great interest in the | 5:24:19 | 5:24:21 | |
scrutiny he put the scrutiny he put
this bill do but I would urge the | 5:24:21 | 5:24:24 | |
House and members here to reject all
the new clauses and all the | 5:24:24 | 5:24:27 | |
amendment is necessary to do so.
Thank you. David Rydings. Thank you, | 5:24:27 | 5:24:33 | |
Madam Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased to
make the very short speech in | 5:24:33 | 5:24:36 | |
support of the Bill on amended. I do
want to congratulate the honourable | 5:24:36 | 5:24:42 | |
member for Torbay and those who sat
in on the committee stage. They seem | 5:24:42 | 5:24:47 | |
to have done a great deal of clever
and thoughtful work. I know very | 5:24:47 | 5:24:56 | |
little about the middle level bill,
but I do know a lot about the canal | 5:24:56 | 5:25:02 | |
where we had similar issues about
leading to update and the | 5:25:02 | 5:25:06 | |
arrangements of who was able to more
the boat and who was able to | 5:25:06 | 5:25:11 | |
therefore be charged for facilities.
That was done without some | 5:25:11 | 5:25:15 | |
difficulty, because there was
opposition, but eventually people | 5:25:15 | 5:25:19 | |
have seen the sense and that does
include things like shutting the | 5:25:19 | 5:25:22 | |
canal on certain days when there is
very limited need for use of that | 5:25:22 | 5:25:28 | |
canal, to allow people to dare I
say, get easier passage over the | 5:25:28 | 5:25:33 | |
canal because we have lots of
bridges, and I think it is right and | 5:25:33 | 5:25:38 | |
proper that these particular
arrangements should be visited from | 5:25:38 | 5:25:42 | |
time to time to make sure that we
had a fit for purpose canal system | 5:25:42 | 5:25:47 | |
and the waterway system in general
so I would like to add my own | 5:25:47 | 5:25:51 | |
congratulations for the work you
have done and to make sure that this | 5:25:51 | 5:25:54 | |
passes through without amendment. | 5:25:54 | 5:25:59 | |
I had the pleasure of taking
evidence on this legislation, I and | 5:25:59 | 5:26:09 | |
colleagues and two from the
opposition have considered the | 5:26:09 | 5:26:12 | |
objections in great detail, and this
is made in response. I think the | 5:26:12 | 5:26:17 | |
honourable friend for their conduct
as well. Before the House strikes a | 5:26:17 | 5:26:25 | |
balance between a clear need, and
the legitimate concerns for those, | 5:26:25 | 5:26:33 | |
recommended the new middle level
bill to the house. I will give way. | 5:26:33 | 5:26:38 | |
Thank you very much for giving way.
Could they assure me that families | 5:26:38 | 5:26:45 | |
wouldn't suffer consequence and also
could you confirm that the licensed | 5:26:45 | 5:26:52 | |
the, the revenue acquired from
licence fee would be spent on their | 5:26:52 | 5:26:59 | |
facilities? The interest taken in
this particular matter. I'll be | 5:26:59 | 5:27:08 | |
going in greater detail and review,
if the interest of how strollers are | 5:27:08 | 5:27:12 | |
not take into account. The other
matter was to deal with licence | 5:27:12 | 5:27:18 | |
fees. Also within the bill is that
effectively, the money that is | 5:27:18 | 5:27:23 | |
raised on this should be spent on
navigation. And as I understand it, | 5:27:23 | 5:27:28 | |
it's likely that actually that isn't
going to be enough to cover the | 5:27:28 | 5:27:32 | |
whole costs. I said it strikes the
right balance, and it is a case that | 5:27:32 | 5:27:42 | |
we located at a level, lay down and
mid-19th century. And do not reflect | 5:27:42 | 5:27:49 | |
the reality of the modern world.
This will bring it into line with | 5:27:49 | 5:27:55 | |
neighbouring systems, prevent the
diversion away from proper proper | 5:27:55 | 5:28:03 | |
prevention methods, and shall be
standard on all British waterways. | 5:28:03 | 5:28:07 | |
Some will reject to this bills,
because an ancient right offering | 5:28:07 | 5:28:13 | |
navigation, under close scrutiny my
constituents and I do believe | 5:28:13 | 5:28:19 | |
that,... When the previous middle
level was drafted, they were used by | 5:28:19 | 5:28:25 | |
commercial and industrial shipping.
The zones anomaly that respect. It | 5:28:25 | 5:28:33 | |
was sensible to concentrate the
navigations on commercial shipping, | 5:28:33 | 5:28:38 | |
of the today the situation entirely,
and see very little very commercial | 5:28:38 | 5:28:45 | |
traffic. It is lay right therefore
that we get... Than many of the | 5:28:45 | 5:28:56 | |
keeping the waterways now that | 5:28:56 | 5:28:57 | |
be only consideration, it also
raises concerns about the supposed | 5:29:01 | 5:29:07 | |
right to free navigation. Some can
be made not to levy, and naturally | 5:29:07 | 5:29:14 | |
when public funds may be laid out to
obtain an artificial navigation, it | 5:29:14 | 5:29:20 | |
is just those of benefit that should
pay. And remember the middle levels | 5:29:20 | 5:29:25 | |
are only navigable waterways. The
commissions are responsible for both | 5:29:25 | 5:29:36 | |
of these features, forgot their
ability to levy funds from those | 5:29:36 | 5:29:40 | |
using the waterways, we have no
choice but to maintain the right | 5:29:40 | 5:29:43 | |
diverting money for defenses. As
always basic fairness, they should | 5:29:43 | 5:29:48 | |
change. The committee heard another
important objection which I like to | 5:29:48 | 5:29:56 | |
address here. Those who paid the fee
will receive in exchange? This is a | 5:29:56 | 5:30:01 | |
perfectly reasonable concern, I like
to briefly explain how the bill has | 5:30:01 | 5:30:04 | |
entrusted. Get a commitment from the
commissioners they were not under | 5:30:04 | 5:30:08 | |
any circumstances, in fact I am told
that they will raise less than that, | 5:30:08 | 5:30:16 | |
does another they will only
undermine their own fund-raising | 5:30:16 | 5:30:21 | |
efforts and they said it to a level
that discourages the use of levels. | 5:30:21 | 5:30:27 | |
There were a man at a competitive
level and live the rest of the | 5:30:27 | 5:30:30 | |
network, and effective market. Those
using the navigations while | 5:30:30 | 5:30:38 | |
maintaining the navigations
themselves, the funds earned. A | 5:30:38 | 5:30:46 | |
president there are | 5:30:46 | 5:30:47 | |
at present, there only to public
facilities in the entire system. All | 5:30:52 | 5:30:57 | |
of these need to be paid for it does
not seem right that local taxpayers | 5:30:57 | 5:31:03 | |
are asked to fund these improvements
and the actual beneficiaries can | 5:31:03 | 5:31:08 | |
injure them free of charge. Another
objection heard by the committee | 5:31:08 | 5:31:11 | |
that the new rules in question are
the commissions power to move | 5:31:11 | 5:31:18 | |
vessels, without authority. Some
conditioners were worried that they | 5:31:18 | 5:31:24 | |
were too short a period. He even
alleged that the violated the human | 5:31:24 | 5:31:31 | |
rights of those that lived on the
level. This began a specific | 5:31:31 | 5:31:44 | |
exemption was written to have a
purpose. Beyond that, the bill | 5:31:44 | 5:31:48 | |
contains several additional methods.
It provides a clear definition of | 5:31:48 | 5:31:55 | |
the lawful authority to which
vessels can be removed and specifies | 5:31:55 | 5:31:59 | |
that any notices will be served to
the vessels in question. Plus 15 | 5:31:59 | 5:32:03 | |
says protocol specifies that removal
of us will be a last result. | 5:32:03 | 5:32:09 | |
Moreover, of course their team, L | 5:32:09 | 5:32:14 | |
the middle level navigation will see
the best and most explicit | 5:32:19 | 5:32:23 | |
protection for owners and users of
dwellers, a part of this countries | 5:32:23 | 5:32:26 | |
waterways. I concluded that these
protections are more than etiquette | 5:32:26 | 5:32:34 | |
to -- adequate of moving abundant or
more vessels blocking the use of | 5:32:34 | 5:32:46 | |
this obstructing navigation of the
narrow waterways. Finally, I'd like | 5:32:46 | 5:32:50 | |
to mention bylaws and regulations.
Requiring vessels to be insured to | 5:32:50 | 5:32:58 | |
proper safety standards, while
providing a period of adjustment to | 5:32:58 | 5:33:01 | |
those using that to make sure
they're up to code. Some not only | 5:33:01 | 5:33:09 | |
for others, but before it became a
dumping ground for unsafe vessels | 5:33:09 | 5:33:13 | |
which are no longer legal under par
for the network. Furthermore, as | 5:33:13 | 5:33:18 | |
they will be adopting standards are
a soon to neighbouring areas, | 5:33:18 | 5:33:23 | |
minimal disruption for a winter in
these navigation as part of a | 5:33:23 | 5:33:28 | |
broader network, in short, this bill
will modernise by resuming any | 5:33:28 | 5:33:33 | |
enhancing its historical character,
and future generations. This bill | 5:33:33 | 5:33:45 | |
affects my constituency along with
many others. About the modern | 5:33:45 | 5:33:51 | |
drainage bells brought in in the
18th century they would not have | 5:33:51 | 5:33:54 | |
homes and we would have nearly
200,000 prime land, so is vital to | 5:33:54 | 5:34:00 | |
my constituency, obviously, it's
important to boat owners as well. | 5:34:00 | 5:34:08 | |
Elected Frank my honourable friend,
I agree exactly with what he just | 5:34:08 | 5:34:12 | |
said. The nature of this bill, the
wikis within, I think what is real | 5:34:12 | 5:34:25 | |
important as we have a regime, that
is simple and transparent and not | 5:34:25 | 5:34:31 | |
too bureaucratic. And a great
respect of our, so the technical | 5:34:31 | 5:34:37 | |
amendments added to allow with the
sentence. But the high is not | 5:34:37 | 5:34:43 | |
telling what would complicate or
make it more bureaucratic. And what | 5:34:43 | 5:34:48 | |
we want is a simple bill with a
charging system that really fits the | 5:34:48 | 5:34:54 | |
purpose and we want to build up a
position of trust between the | 5:34:54 | 5:34:57 | |
commissioners they'll be playing | 5:34:57 | 5:34:58 | |
paying these navigation keys. It so
important my constituency. Thank you | 5:35:02 | 5:35:13 | |
very much Madam Deputy Speaker, I
can be relatively brief. The | 5:35:13 | 5:35:21 | |
government supports this bill which
is promoted by middle level | 5:35:21 | 5:35:24 | |
commissioners. A stacked tree
constituted under the middle | 5:35:24 | 5:35:29 | |
the previous amendments that this
sought to put forward here, by | 5:35:33 | 5:35:39 | |
believe in all the points that have
been raised in doubt with a | 5:35:39 | 5:35:45 | |
particular by our honourable member,
who has a creep grasp of the details | 5:35:45 | 5:35:49 | |
of the bill. | 5:35:49 | 5:35:50 | |
-- deep grasp of the details of the
bill. These acts are considerably | 5:35:54 | 5:35:58 | |
out of date and do not align with
modern requirements or the statutory | 5:35:58 | 5:36:03 | |
framework applicable to other
navigation authorities. In | 5:36:03 | 5:36:07 | |
particular, at the current legal
framework, which covers the | 5:36:07 | 5:36:10 | |
commissioners does not include
adequate provision for the vessels | 5:36:10 | 5:36:15 | |
using the waterways of the levying
of charges and waterways for | 5:36:15 | 5:36:19 | |
centuries. As result, they do not
receive any income for navigation | 5:36:19 | 5:36:24 | |
waterways and this is meant that
money raised through drainage, | 5:36:24 | 5:36:29 | |
rather then flood defence purposes,
which is contradictory to policy. It | 5:36:29 | 5:36:37 | |
enabled them to find their waterways
-- fund their waterways, authorities | 5:36:37 | 5:36:47 | |
for example have the canal and
rivers, just and the authority. I | 5:36:47 | 5:36:53 | |
read the report this and hope that
it will pass an amended. Madam | 5:36:53 | 5:37:02 | |
Deputy Speaker, we had a good
thoughtful debate, and I'm grateful | 5:37:02 | 5:37:06 | |
to everybody who has participated in
it. I like to think of friend who is | 5:37:06 | 5:37:18 | |
conceded to some of my minutes were
sensible and perhaps the new | 5:37:18 | 5:37:22 | |
clauses, is not accepted by
promoters tonight that they will be | 5:37:22 | 5:37:30 | |
taken forward and the other place as
it inevitably will be. This is a | 5:37:30 | 5:37:43 | |
considerable concern to the
petitioners them very grateful that | 5:37:43 | 5:37:47 | |
my I will friend having got to his
feet, it's quite than usual in these | 5:37:47 | 5:37:54 | |
debates for the person who is
actually gone to the detail, coming | 5:37:54 | 5:37:59 | |
care to explain his reasoning
ability did I like to thank my | 5:37:59 | 5:38:05 | |
honourable friend and other members
of the committee for the work that | 5:38:05 | 5:38:07 | |
they did in the courteous way in
which they dealt with the concerns | 5:38:07 | 5:38:11 | |
which are being confessed. Instead
of hiding under a Bush, they didn't | 5:38:11 | 5:38:23 | |
show | 5:38:23 | 5:38:24 | |
I'm also grateful to the member of
how facts showing some sympathy for | 5:38:27 | 5:38:34 | |
my amendment, even though she cannot
bring herself to support them yet. | 5:38:34 | 5:38:40 | |
There are a number of amendments out
there today can house because I | 5:38:40 | 5:38:50 | |
think people will be much better for
them to be dealt with and at the | 5:38:50 | 5:38:57 | |
other place, the head Pat has
developed the buses | 5:38:57 | 5:39:01 | |
can I say that I do think, that
amendment 14 is one in which bears | 5:39:06 | 5:39:16 | |
further consideration. Another 14
for the benefit of those who are | 5:39:16 | 5:39:20 | |
living in the debate, amendment 14
clause 11, at the end, and | 5:39:20 | 5:39:29 | |
respectively so our way to a driver
who is identified as disabled. In | 5:39:29 | 5:39:37 | |
response to that by my other friend,
thankful on all through my work. He | 5:39:37 | 5:39:55 | |
answers the point that he made, and
makes it much easier for someone up | 5:39:55 | 5:40:01 | |
for debate if they know that there
are parts of been answered. In | 5:40:01 | 5:40:08 | |
relation to disabled people, he sees
on the fact that registered disabled | 5:40:08 | 5:40:14 | |
is no longer with the R a D, a
category service and this amendment | 5:40:14 | 5:40:21 | |
would be for people registered as
disabled with a mid-level | 5:40:21 | 5:40:28 | |
commissioner. So in order to have
these boats, come its registration | 5:40:28 | 5:40:35 | |
system and that's that system will
include | 5:40:35 | 5:40:46 | |
I don't think the objection is a
valued one. If I put the amendment | 5:40:46 | 5:40:51 | |
with on the D perhaps it might have
been. I hope that we'd be able to | 5:40:51 | 5:41:00 | |
support this on the basis that it
is... There are a lot of people who | 5:41:00 | 5:41:06 | |
are disabled who got considerable
difficulties and I think it will be | 5:41:06 | 5:41:11 | |
a reasonable cross subsidy to be
paid by all other voters if they | 5:41:11 | 5:41:18 | |
were prepared to cross subsidize
those who register with the | 5:41:18 | 5:41:23 | |
commissioners as being disabled. The
only other issue I raise in | 5:41:23 | 5:41:26 | |
conclusion is that I note from
what's been said that there is a | 5:41:26 | 5:41:33 | |
move here to ensure that the vessels
which are substandard are | 5:41:33 | 5:41:36 | |
effectively going to be removed. I
hope that is not going to be done in | 5:41:36 | 5:41:41 | |
a way that's harassing, because as
the chairman of the all party | 5:41:41 | 5:41:43 | |
Parliamentary group on mobile phones
or park homes, I think there's a lot | 5:41:43 | 5:41:50 | |
of concern that largely elderly
people living in Park homes find | 5:41:50 | 5:41:54 | |
themselves harassed just because
their park home has not been updated | 5:41:54 | 5:41:58 | |
for 20 years or so, and I think
there a danger that in the drive for | 5:41:58 | 5:42:04 | |
what I might describe as
gentrification in the waterways, | 5:42:04 | 5:42:09 | |
that we may be working against the
interests of the people who have | 5:42:09 | 5:42:13 | |
been resident on those waterways for
many, many years and whose vessels | 5:42:13 | 5:42:20 | |
are not up to modern standards, but
are for their purposes perfectly | 5:42:20 | 5:42:23 | |
good vessels. I hope that the
commissioners and the promoters | 5:42:23 | 5:42:29 | |
won't abuse that power which we are
giving them. Madam Deputy Speaker, I | 5:42:29 | 5:42:35 | |
would seek to withdraw New Clause
one and ask the House to express its | 5:42:35 | 5:42:41 | |
opinion on amendment 14. In other
words, whether or not the House | 5:42:41 | 5:42:46 | |
would like to give disabled people
who are using these inland waterways | 5:42:46 | 5:42:55 | |
in vessels which are registered with
the commissioners, give them the | 5:42:55 | 5:43:00 | |
right to be able to do so without
having to pay charges. So, I would | 5:43:00 | 5:43:04 | |
like to move amendment 14. Is it
your pleasure that New Clause one be | 5:43:04 | 5:43:10 | |
withdrawn? New Clause one with John.
We therefore come to amendment | 5:43:10 | 5:43:20 | |
number 14. Sir Christopher to move
formally. They to move. The question | 5:43:20 | 5:43:28 | |
that amended 14 boot. So many of
that opinion say iMac. Of the | 5:43:28 | 5:43:34 | |
contrary no? | 5:43:34 | 5:43:36 |