15/03/2018 House of Commons


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15/03/2018

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including a statement on building safety, a statement on Myanmar, and the second day of debate on European affairs.


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struggles to meet their own energy

bills. Monday the 26th of March

0:00:000:00:02

would be an ideal question to raise

them at DWP questions.

Statement,

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the Secretary of State for housing

communities and local Government.

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Secretary Sajid Javid.

Thank you, Mr

Speaker. With permission, I wish to

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make a statement on issues arising

from the Metropolitan Police

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investigation into the Grenfell

Tower tragedy. This investigation

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has involved a thorough examination

of every aspect of the tower,

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including from stores to flats on

the property. These stores include a

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glazed fire door, manufactured

around five years ago. -- these

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doors. Initial indications indicates

the door is designed to resist

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Firefox 30 minutes, but when tested

by the Metropolitan Police, failed

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after approximately 15 minutes. --

resist fire for 30 minutes. This

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test result might have wider

invitations for public safety, and

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the police alerted my department.

The Government immediately sought

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advice from the Independent expert

panel to test the findings to see

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whether any action was required as a

result. This expert panel is made up

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of a range of building and fire

safety experts, and chaired by the

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former London Fire Commissioner and

former Government 's chief fire and

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rescue adviser. The panel consulted

with letters incidents from the net

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and police, the Government's chief

scientific advisers, and the

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National Fire chiefs Council. -- the

Metropolitan Police. Following this,

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the expert panel has advised that

risks to public safety remain low.

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There is no change to fire safety

advice that the public should

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follow. I nevertheless fully

appreciate that this news will be

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troubling for many people, not least

all those affected by the Grenfell

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tragedy. That is why, based on

expert advice, we have begun the

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process of conducting further tests

and will continue to consult with

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the expert panel to consider the

invocations of these further tests.

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I made it clear that the necessary

tests and assessments must be

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carried out thoroughly, but that

pace. There is no evidence that this

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is a systemic issue. Data between

2009 and 2017 shows that fire does

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not generally spread beyond the room

of origin. I'll also clear that my

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department and the Metropolitan

Police will ensure the believed and

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survivors are kept informed of

progress, and commits to updating

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the House when further information

is available, and no later than the

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end of April. I should stress that,

in carrying out these tests,

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conclusions should not be drawn

about the nature of the cause of the

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Grenfell tragedy. That is a matter

for a separate police investigation,

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and it must be allowed to run its

course. Honourable members will be

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aware that an independent review is

being undertaken of building

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regulations and fire safety to

ensure that the regulatory system is

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sufficiently robust. They have been

made aware of this wood these latest

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findings. Having accepted the

initial recommendations that were

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set out in her interim report in

December, we look forward to the

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final report. Nine months ago, we

faced a loss of life and suffering

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on an unimaginable scale at

Grenfell. Since then, significant

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efforts have been made by the

Government and others to support

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survivors, to find them new homes,

and to help keep people safe.

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However, I know that the matter

raised today will of course raise

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questions, and I want to reiterate

that on the basis of expert advice,

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my department has received, there is

no evidence that risks to the public

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have changed. I want to reassure

honourable members that all possible

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steps are being taken to properly

investigate the issues, and to take

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action where needed. Public safety

is paramount, and our position is

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clear. The events of the 14th of

June 2017 must never be allowed to

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happen again. I commend this

statement to the House.

Can I begin

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by thanking the Secretary of State

for his statement? Grenfell nine

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months on, the human tragedy of

Grenfell still lives with others

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all, and the realisation that we saw

the systemic failure of our system

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of building checks and building

controls, and we must keep that in

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mind, because as the Secretary of

State said, and I will always

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endorses words, public safety has to

be paramount. But that means

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transparency, it means

accountability, and it means a

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driving sense of urgency. I have to

say, I welcome his transparency in

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bringing forward this statement at

the earliest possible stage, it is

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right and proper for this to be in

the public domain, so thank you for

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that. But I think you would also

agree with me that it can never be

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open to the charge of physical

point-scoring for the opposition to

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demand that accountability, to

demand the Government is to

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demonstrate its sense of urgency. --

political point scoring. But if I

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can say, I was a little supply is in

his statement at one particular

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point. -- a little surprised. My

thanks to the Metropolitan Police

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for the work they have done. The

secretary told us that this test

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result might have wider implications

for public safety, and consequently

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alerted his department. The

Secretary of State and then went on,

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and this is where I am surprised,

but there is no evidence that this

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is a systemic issue. He then said,

and I was astounded by this, data

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between 2009 and 2017 shows fire

does not generally spread beyond the

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rim of origin. That may be true, but

all we know that of course in the

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case of Grenfell Tower, that is

exactly what did happen. -- the room

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of origin. The fire spread and

spread, so we cannot see this with

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any sense of complacency. If this is

not systemic, what assessment has

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been made of how many buildings are

potentially affected by this? How

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many individual flats? How many

people have fire doors which simply

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do not do the job? What steps is he

taking to make that kind of

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determination? Because that's the at

which the words, this is not

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systemic, begin to ring a little

incredible. There may be a systemic

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problem, and got to begin to

recognise that if this is wide

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scale, we have just that systemic

problem. I then say to the Secretary

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of State, we need a real sense of

urgency in this, as in other areas

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of building control, tower block

residents are up and down the

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country are entitled to know what

the scale of this issue is. And that

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sense of urgency, must say to be

Secretary of State, has not always

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been apparent in all the

Government's actions. We saw earlier

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this week, and I think he was

themselves a little embarrassed when

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he was not able to answer the

question put during question time,

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as to how many tower blocks are

unsafe. Grenfell. He was not able to

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say particularly how many private

tower blocks of the same aluminium

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composite cladding that was used in

Grenfell up and down the country. We

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now need some urgency to get those

answers. I hope the Secretary of

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State can tell us when he will have

that information when we can begin

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to give a sense of reassurance for

people. I would also say to him that

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any recent was in answer to my right

honourable friend the Shadow housing

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secretary, the department confirmed

that no funding had yet been

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provided to any one of the local

authorities who had contacted his

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department. We were told at question

time that no funding requested had

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been refused, but it is not quite

the full truth if they are reality

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is that no funding requests had

actually been ceded to. Perhaps he

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can update is and tells when local

authorities, who really do want to

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get on with this work, will seek the

assistance from the central

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Government that he committed to now

nearly nine months ago.

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The upshot is that nine months on,

only seven of more than 300 tower

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blocks that had been identified as

having dangerous cladding have had

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that cladding removed and replaced

with something more acceptable. This

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is simply not good enough.

Mr

Speaker, I thank the honourable

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gentleman for his comments and I am

happy to answer the point is the

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honourable gentleman has made. First

of all, we all agree that public

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safety is the number-one issue here.

It is paramount. He will know that

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since the tragedy, as well as the

police investigation and the work

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being done through the public

inquiry, there are lessons for

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public safety and the honourable

gentleman will remember that right

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from the start, the expert panel was

convened in the days with the

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emergency advice that was necessary,

that went out widely through owners

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of private buildings. The initial

sample testing and that the

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large-scale testing was set up and

also the independent review that is

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now being done. I wanted to see an

interim report with some of the

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early lessons we can act on and to

remind the honourable gentleman that

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with that interim report, there are

a number of recommendations that

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were made by Dame Judith Hackett

which we have accepted and start

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implementing each one of those. Dame

Judith Hackett is now working on her

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final report, which is due for the

spring, to reflect the sense of

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urgency. What I have come to the

House with today, and I think it is

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correct that once the expert panel

and the police were comfortable that

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this information can be publicly

shared, it is right to be

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transparent as quickly as possible

and this is correct to create that

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public trust that is necessary so

that there is no undue distress

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caused to anyone. With this

information, it is correct that we

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are led throughout the process by

the expert panel and the industry

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advisers that have been put in

place, as well as the work that has

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been done by the police. To give the

honourable gentleman more

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information, as well as consulting

the expert panel, the government has

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consulted the fire chiefs Council,

the scientific advisers, the police

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and the London Fire Brigade. As a

result of all this, the expert panel

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has concluded that risk to public

safety remained low, that there is

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no change to fire safety advice,

that a programme with additional

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testing has to be commissioned to

determine the cause of the failed

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test. It is essential that

additional testing is required. It

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is going on and it has to be

thorough and at pace, but I think

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the honourable gentleman would agree

that we shouldn't rush it so that we

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get inappropriate results. It should

be done properly, led by the experts

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and on their advice. That is why I

said in mice that month earlier that

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there is no evidence of a systemic

problem. That is their advice so far

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and are taking their advice while we

continue with further tests. The

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honourable gentleman also seemed to

suggest that work was not being done

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urgently. I would refute that. At

every step of the way, whether it is

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today's information or other

information that has come to light

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since the fire, we have worked as

urgently as possible. That includes

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the remediation of existing

buildings with ASEAN cladding, and

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301 buildings have so far been

identified. Almost 60% have begun

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the remediation work and seven have

completed as he said. But in every

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single case, because public safety

is paramount, interim measures were

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put in place immediately with expert

advice, often from the local fire

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brigade. And those remain in place.

That is why people can be

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comfortable that every measure is

being taken to make sure that they

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remain safe.

I think the House will

support my right honourable friend

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on the causes and waiting to get the

determination of those

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investigating. We know about the

liabilities and risks. You give us

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has mentioned the private

leaseholders in private blocks. We

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have had the first tribunal decision

in Croydon this week and cityscape,

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which is owned by a group of

interests where ordinary taxpaying

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residents are being asked to pay

thousands of pounds. The same thing

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is happening in Greenwich and

Liverpool, and I could name the

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other 129 blocks. Can I put it to my

right honourable friend that he

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ought to get William Waldorf Astor's

Abacus interests in together with

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the builders, together with the

leaseholders and are represented to

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us, to have a Round Table in the

open to say instead of waiting two

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years until an inquiry, it is time

to get these people together and say

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to them perhaps a simple deal to go

to the builders put up a third, the

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freeholders put up a third and the

government/ tenants put up a third

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and get the cladding removed and

replaced?

I am firstly aware of the

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legal judgment he referred to and we

are considering carefully its

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implications. But I have said a

number of times in this House that

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whatever the legal situation might

be, the private owners of buildings

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should take their lead from the

public sector and should take

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responsibility for the additional

costs. They might want to look at

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insurance claims, warranties and

legal action they might be able to

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take themselves. I also want to make

sure that leaseholders get the

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advice they need. That is why we

have increased funding for the

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leasehold advisory service. With new

concerns emerging nine months after

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Grenfell, it is no surprise that

residents in high-rise buildings

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remain extremely concerned. One of

the areas of possible reassurance

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for them was the possibility of

retrofitting of sprinklers. My local

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authority, Westminster, has advised

that they are concerned about

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proceeding with retrofitting because

they have no right of access to the

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one in three properties that are in

private ownership in social housing

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blocks. This isn't a matter of

regulation, it's a matter of

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ensuring access. Will the Secretary

of State advise how we can take this

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forward as a matter of urgency

separate councils that do wish to

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proceed with retrofitting are able

to do so? Where I agree with the

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honourable lady is that in light of

the information that has come about

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since the tragedy, whatever action

local authorities need to take to

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keep residents safe in high-rise

buildings is exactly what is

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expected of them and they have our

support in doing so. When it comes

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to sprinklers, if that is the

determination of the local

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authority, that is their decision to

be made and they will get the

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financial flexibility to support

them. If there are other issues that

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are getting in the way, we will be

happy to look at them. A number of

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local authorities have approached us

and we will help them all in every

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way. A number of high-rise office

blocks in Barnet are being converted

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to residential use using permitted

development rights without the need

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for planning permission, leading

some to fear design standards will

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be compromised because of the

absence of a planning process.

Will

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the government take action to ensure

that fire safety standards are not

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compromised in the event of these

kind of conversions?

I can reassure

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my right honourable friend that even

when building work is done under

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permitted regulations, it still

requires that work to be subject to

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building regulations including all

the regulations around safety. There

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is no way any builder can avoid

that. So I hope that is some

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reassurance to her residence. The

regulations are still in place, even

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when it is a permitted development

right.

The Grenfell Tower fire laid

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bare profound injustice is at the

heart of the UK housing system and

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every revelation from the

investigation makes that picture

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starker and clearer. So far, the

government has not made available a

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single penny of new government money

for works which are essential to

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respond to mitigate the risks

revealed as a consequence of

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Grenfell. Unless the government does

so, it is simply meeting out further

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injustice to leaseholders who will

face very large bills and tenants

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who will see much needed major works

provide. Will the Secretary of State

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take the opportunity of this latest

revelation to commit new government

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resources to address the impact of

the Grenfell Tower fire for fire

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safety across the country and right

the wrongs of the heart of the UK

0:18:270:18:31

housing system?

Two things. Firstly,

with the work being done by local

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authorities, we have made it clear

that we will provide them with the

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financial flexibility if they needed

to do any necessary work for fire

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safety. That has been clear from the

start. On the wider issue of social

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housing and the wider lessons to be

learned, that is why we have the

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green paper and that is why we will

publish the green paper in due

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course after proper consultation.

I

commend my right honourable friend

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for not only his statement today,

but keeping the House updated with

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progress on this tragedy. Dame

Judith Kit is at building

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regulations -- Dame Judi Dench it.

We have asked as a select committee

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for her to look at part P of those

relations. At the moment, there

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seems to be a lack of clarity over

the use of combustible materials

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within high-rise buildings. Can my

right honourable friend commit to

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thoroughly reviewing building

regulations, in particular taking

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into account the evidence that has

emerged today? The reality is that

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whilst fires may be retained within

a room normally, this was not normal

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circumstances, but could happen

again because it was an explosion

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caused by an electrical fire, which

could then be replicated once again.

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My honourable friend is right to

raise this. He will know that Dame

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Judith Hackitt's work is

independent. But I know she takes

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the issue my honourable friend has

raised very seriously and my

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honourable friend me know that in

her interim report, she recommended

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a review of work to be done to

clarify and that work has already

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begun within the department and we

hope to consult on that in the

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summer.

This is obviously a worrying

development, reinforcing Dame Judith

0:20:350:20:41

Hackitt's interim findings of

cultural change needed across the

0:20:410:20:45

board referred to by the Secretary

of State. We look forward to her

0:20:450:20:49

conclusions, hopefully including the

updating of the gathered in document

0:20:490:20:53

B. What assistance cover Secretary

of State offer leaseholders now

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facing bills of thousands of pounds

for fire marshals, replacement

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cladding and now possibly for new

fire doors, when they have no

0:21:020:21:06

responsibility for the predicament

in which they find themselves? The

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honourable gentleman asked the

question. The Secretary of State's

0:21:080:21:14

exhortations on property management

companies and freeholders are

0:21:140:21:17

falling on deaf ears. Leaseholders

are having to pick up the tab.

I

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thank the honourable gentleman for

welcoming the work that Dame Judith

0:21:280:21:31

Hackitt is doing. On the issue of

leaseholders, the government

0:21:310:21:34

understands the situation they are

in. It is obviously distressing for

0:21:340:21:38

many people. I don't accept that

what I have said about the moral

0:21:380:21:44

duty of owners is falling on deaf

ears. There have been a number of

0:21:440:21:48

instances where we have got involved

and some of the private owners have

0:21:480:21:52

listened. They do not wish to be

public about it, but at least they

0:21:520:21:55

have helped and listened. I am

keeping the issue under review and

0:21:550:22:01

looking to see what more we can do.

I know we have all been deeply moved

0:22:010:22:07

by the dignity of the survivors, the

bereaved and the volunteers when it

0:22:070:22:12

comes to the Grenfell Tower

disaster. Many of us have also had

0:22:120:22:17

casework and individuals come to us

with concerns about where they live.

0:22:170:22:20

Can my right honourable friend

commit to continuing to do

0:22:200:22:24

everything in his power to ensure

that they get the help, the support

0:22:240:22:29

and the justice that they deserve?

I

am happy to make that commitment.

0:22:290:22:39

The work continues each day in my

department and across government

0:22:390:22:43

with the ministerial group that has

been set up to help the survivors of

0:22:430:22:47

the Grenfell disaster. I am happy to

reemphasise that commitment to my

0:22:470:22:50

honourable friend.

0:22:500:22:56

And I know the Minister to be a very

good communicator. I felt very good

0:22:560:23:00

at keeping the House informed. Any

criticism I now make, please bear

0:23:000:23:04

that in mind. But I do find that the

guidance he has given on a couple of

0:23:040:23:09

questions I have asked, I just don't

understand them. The fact is many

0:23:090:23:15

thousands of people in our country

have a black cloud hanging over

0:23:150:23:18

them. They may be a leaseholder,

they may be a freeholder, but they

0:23:180:23:23

can't get out of their minds because

they don't how much they are going

0:23:230:23:26

to be responsible for, and I have

begged him to say get these three

0:23:260:23:30

together. The Government should put

something in because they have

0:23:300:23:34

changed the standard. Let's get this

sorted, please.

With respect to the

0:23:340:23:42

honourable gentleman, this issue

around leaseholders and what can and

0:23:420:23:44

cannot be done, it is fast changing.

He may know that there was a legal

0:23:440:23:51

case waiting to be hurt, which are

making to conclusion a couple of

0:23:510:23:55

days ago. As I said earlier, we are

studying that outcome. But on the

0:23:550:23:59

point he has made about getting

people together, one thing we are in

0:23:590:24:03

the process of setting up as a Round

Table, with a number of interested

0:24:030:24:08

parties, including those

representing leaseholders, which I

0:24:080:24:09

think will help.

I commend my right

honourable friend forcefully

0:24:090:24:15

updating the House. Many citizens

are deeply concerned about fire

0:24:150:24:19

risk, and I am afraid about

Government of any colour. Could my

0:24:190:24:27

honourable friend please remind the

House that the strength of the panel

0:24:270:24:31

he has advising him?

I am happy to

do that. The expert panel I refer to

0:24:310:24:38

as chaired by the former London Fire

Commissioner and also the

0:24:380:24:42

Government's former Chief Fire and

rescue adviser. Also on the panel is

0:24:420:24:47

the chief executive of the building

research Establishment, the chair of

0:24:470:24:51

the national Fire Chiefs Council,

and the global director of a leading

0:24:510:25:00

construction company and also under

construction leadership Council.

The

0:25:000:25:05

expert panel 's recommendation that

no change in safety advice is

0:25:050:25:12

necessary will come as a surprise to

many people, so will the Government

0:25:120:25:19

insist that Damon Judith Hackett's

review into the fire regulation

0:25:190:25:24

assessments will make sure that

every high-rise building's

0:25:240:25:27

assessment will be published and

made of the Oval in an accessibility

0:25:270:25:32

form for the public, so that they

can get perhaps the reassurance from

0:25:320:25:36

that that I fear they want have got

from this report? -- want have got.

0:25:360:25:43

-- will not have got.

I hope the

public will be very reassured by the

0:25:430:25:48

advice of the expert panel, not just

because of the expertise that

0:25:480:25:54

presented on that panel, but also,

this is worth emphasising this, the

0:25:540:25:57

fact that they are working closely

with the National Fire Chief

0:25:570:26:04

Counsel, the Metropolitan Police and

the Government scientific officers.

0:26:040:26:07

I hope that gives more confidence to

the public and the honourable lady.

0:26:070:26:12

. May I thank the Secretary of State

for his statement. It is absolutely

0:26:120:26:24

vital that the victims of the

Grenfell Tower tragedy gets justice.

0:26:240:26:29

Does my honourable friend agree that

the only way to do this is to let

0:26:290:26:32

the police and the end independent

enquiry get on with their jobs?

All

0:26:320:26:39

in this House want to see justice

received for the victims of the

0:26:390:26:45

Grenfell Tower did it. That is why

there is an ongoing police

0:26:450:26:54

investigation. -- Grenfell Tower

tragedy. The investigation has the

0:26:540:27:00

full support of the Government.

I do

not find the Secretary of State's

0:27:000:27:05

statement reassuring. Nine months

on, he has come to the House to say

0:27:050:27:09

we have just discovered the fire

doors were defective, and only

0:27:090:27:12

lasted 15 minutes in the case of a

fire, not 30 minutes. My

0:27:120:27:17

constituents were told to stay put

on the basis that those doors give

0:27:170:27:21

the Fire Service time to come and

rescue people in tower blocks. He

0:27:210:27:27

says that this is not a systemic

problem, but what does that mean?

0:27:270:27:34

Were these defective doors fitted

knowing that will lasted 15 minutes?

0:27:340:27:37

Is the to blame? How widespread is

this? Is the manufacturer to blame?

0:27:370:27:44

Can we have another Secretary of

State to update as with the real

0:27:440:27:50

facts of what the situation is?

First I would say to the honourable

0:27:500:27:57

gentleman, there is a life police

investigation going on. He should

0:27:570:28:04

appreciate that it is an independent

investigation, a criminal

0:28:040:28:07

investigation taking place by the

police, and it would not be

0:28:070:28:11

appropriate for me to talk about

certain things publicly unless the

0:28:110:28:16

honourable gentleman is suggesting

we should jeopardise a life police

0:28:160:28:19

investigation. He is rightly asking

me about the investigation itself.

0:28:190:28:25

I'm happy to give him more

information. Not the police

0:28:250:28:28

investigation, but the work now

being led by the expert panel. There

0:28:280:28:33

is a documentary investigation into

the fire doors which is being led by

0:28:330:28:37

the police to see where these fire

doors, if it is a whole set of

0:28:370:28:44

doors, or a batch of doors, where

they might be in the country. There

0:28:440:28:48

is a fire testing investigation

being led by my department testing

0:28:480:28:53

after doors to see how widespread

the problem may be. There is also a

0:28:530:28:57

visual inspection and

declassification investigation going

0:28:570:29:01

on into the materials. I hope the

honourable gentleman appreciates

0:29:010:29:03

there is a lot of work to do, and it

is right that we do this thoroughly

0:29:030:29:08

and take the time to get it right.

I

thank the Secretary of State for

0:29:080:29:15

providing the assurances he has

done, which will be gratefully

0:29:150:29:18

received by my constituents. As you

will know, being my neighbouring MP,

0:29:180:29:23

he will know that the people of

Worcestershire have been deeply

0:29:230:29:27

touched by this tragedy. It has

affected people up and down the

0:29:270:29:30

country. Can you please give

assurances, are there any actions

0:29:300:29:35

that my local council meets today in

light of these latest findings? --

0:29:350:29:39

needs to take.

Immediately, soon

after this terrible tragedy, my

0:29:390:29:48

department conducted every council

in the country, and informed them of

0:29:480:29:53

what we knew at the time, and also

any immediate measures that we must

0:29:530:29:56

take. Since that time, councils have

been kept updated as we learn more

0:29:560:30:02

information, including the

information we have talked about

0:30:020:30:03

today.

Leaseholders in Liverpool are

already facing bills of £18,000 each

0:30:030:30:16

for the replacement cladding, and

who knows what this new announcement

0:30:160:30:19

might mean for them and other people

around the country. The original

0:30:190:30:23

development company was dissolved

four years ago. The current owner is

0:30:230:30:31

based in Guernsey. It is still not

known whether an insurance policy

0:30:310:30:35

apparently taken out by the original

developers will raise any funds are

0:30:350:30:40

told to meet these costs.

Leaseholders are told they will get

0:30:400:30:44

an answer, but they have not won

yet. The Secretary of State keeps

0:30:440:30:48

expressing some kind of sympathy for

leaseholders caught in this

0:30:480:30:50

situation, but what else can he do

to help my constituents in

0:30:500:30:55

Liverpool?

I think what the

honourable lady has highlighted as

0:30:550:31:01

the complexity of some of these

situations. I'm sure she appreciates

0:31:010:31:06

that, but despite that, we must do

as she suggests. Whatever can be

0:31:060:31:11

done to help individuals concerned

in these very difficult

0:31:110:31:14

circumstances, that is why we are

looking closely at the recent legal

0:31:140:31:19

judgment. I believe it is the first

time a tribunal has looked at that

0:31:190:31:22

kind of case. That is why we have

provided more funding for the

0:31:220:31:28

leasehold advisory service so that

leaseholders can get more instant

0:31:280:31:31

support, and also we are looking at

what more can be done and keeping

0:31:310:31:37

the situation in review.

I had the

privilege to complete the two Europe

0:31:370:31:48

Parliamentary fire safety scheme. I

have had a small introduction to the

0:31:480:31:52

horrors of fire and the bravery

displayed by our firefighters every

0:31:520:31:57

day. In that regard, fire doors are

absolutely crucial. What surprises

0:31:570:32:04

me about this enquiry is, who

certifies that these doors are meant

0:32:040:32:08

to last 30 minutes? -- what puzzles

me. If it has been demonstrated that

0:32:080:32:16

those last half that time, for those

behind those doors, 15 minutes may

0:32:160:32:20

not seem very long to ours now, but

for people can see fire through the

0:32:200:32:27

glass, it is crucial. Some question

is, who certifies 30 minutes?

My

0:32:270:32:33

honourable friend speaks with some

experience, and he is absolutely

0:32:330:32:35

right to ask that question. The

answer is, the door in question in

0:32:350:32:41

this case, because it is a 30 minute

resistance, or that is what it

0:32:410:32:45

should have been, the standard in

Britain must be tested against. Each

0:32:450:33:01

of those testing centres must be

accredited by the UK accreditation

0:33:010:33:08

service. I don't want to make any

judgments on what happened in this

0:33:080:33:15

case, because as I said, it is the

subject of a life police

0:33:150:33:20

investigation. The police say they

are getting full cooperation from

0:33:200:33:23

the manufacturer. I want to reassure

my honourable friend but, first of

0:33:230:33:29

all, the police are clearly doing

their work with that particular door

0:33:290:33:32

and doors of that type, and we are

doing the much wider testing this is

0:33:320:33:36

necessary.

Last night, one of my

parliamentary staff went on the

0:33:360:33:42

Grenfell Tower March, and talked to

some after which has been running in

0:33:420:33:46

a hotel room for nine months.

Despite the Government's promised to

0:33:460:33:49

rehouse these people, nine months

later, the figures show that 60 of

0:33:490:33:59

208 households are permanent homes.

I would like to know, with the

0:33:590:34:01

Secretary of State advice on what

was in the House when the Government

0:34:010:34:05

will properly rehouse these people?

Some sort of a timescale, because we

0:34:050:34:08

are hearing reassuring noises, but

these people are saying they are not

0:34:080:34:12

seen the action on the ground. Will

these people be rehoused in the

0:34:120:34:17

summer, autumn, Christmas, can we

have a timescale please?

I'm happy

0:34:170:34:21

to update the honourable lady. There

were 151 homes lost to the fire, but

0:34:210:34:29

209 households to find new homes

for. I think she knows why the

0:34:290:34:34

number might be higher. So far, 184

have moved out of the emergency

0:34:340:34:38

accommodation into either temporary

or permanent accommodation. That

0:34:380:34:42

leaves 25 households that have still

not accepted temporary or permanent

0:34:420:34:49

accommodation. I hope the honourable

lady can appreciate that whilst it

0:34:490:34:52

is absolutely right that we work at

pace and help those families to move

0:34:520:34:56

into permanent or temporary

accommodation as they choose as

0:34:560:35:00

quickly as possible, and by the way

they are now over 300 homes

0:35:000:35:02

available on the lettering system,

more than are required, but no

0:35:020:35:07

family can be pushed and told that

they must make a decision and that

0:35:070:35:13

they have no choice. It must be done

at their pace. I cannot go into the

0:35:130:35:18

details, but the 25 households that

are yet to accept temporary or

0:35:180:35:22

permanent accommodation, there are

quite contemplated factors some of

0:35:220:35:26

them. It would be inappropriate from

what I know to make those families

0:35:260:35:32

to make a decision if they are not

ready.

I very recently, and continue

0:35:320:35:40

to be, dealing with concerns

regarding the construction of a

0:35:400:35:42

tower block in my constituency. The

concerns are that the cladding meets

0:35:420:35:48

the building regulations, but it is

not fire safe. So when it has been

0:35:480:35:51

tested, it is deemed not to be fire

safe. When are we going to get

0:35:510:35:59

around to sorting out the building

regulations to make sure all about

0:35:590:36:02

our blocks are safe, and that the

body can feel safe in their homes?

0:36:020:36:07

-- everybody can feel safe.

I'm not

aware of the particular tower block,

0:36:070:36:13

but the honourable lady wants to

give me more on it, I and happy to

0:36:130:36:19

take a closer look. I'm not aware of

any case where the cladding has

0:36:190:36:25

passed building regulation tests but

the tower block is not deemed safe.

0:36:250:36:30

In every case that I have referred

to other, the number of buildings

0:36:300:36:32

that need the cladding removed, it

is our view that none of that

0:36:320:36:37

cladding meets building regulations.

That is exactly why it needs to be

0:36:370:36:41

moved.

The Secretary of State is

well aware of the messy and as yet

0:36:410:36:52

unsolved situation with leaseholders

in Greenwich. Last week, the

0:36:520:36:56

community found out about another

development in Greenwich that has

0:36:560:36:59

dangerous cladding on some of the

towers. I do not intend to go into

0:36:590:37:02

the details, but my question to the

Secretary of State is this. How on

0:37:020:37:08

earth, nine months on, can we still

be finding out about additional

0:37:080:37:11

freehold developments that have

lethal material around some of the

0:37:110:37:16

blocks on?

In August last year, I

wrote to every single local

0:37:160:37:23

authority and asked them to carry

out the work of finding all the

0:37:230:37:29

local private sector buildings in

the area and providing support for

0:37:290:37:32

them. In fact, we just give

additional funding to with that. Any

0:37:320:37:38

of them have taken with the right

urgency, and working at pace. --

0:37:380:37:41

many of them. Some of them are still

discovering buildings because partly

0:37:410:37:46

it requires the cooperation of the

private sector. We have spoken to

0:37:460:37:50

many private sector institutions,

and I think it would be wrong to

0:37:500:37:53

blame local authorities for this. It

is right that we work with them and

0:37:530:37:57

give them only support what is

necessary to find these buildings.

0:37:570:38:05

After Grenfell, the three bar MPs

were to the Secretary of State

0:38:050:38:08

asking for help to retrofit

sprinklers in more than 170 tower

0:38:080:38:11

blocks in the borough. That was a

clear request for financial support.

0:38:110:38:17

It is simply disingenuous to claim

no request has been turned down. The

0:38:170:38:21

department dismissively said it

would assess the council's means of

0:38:210:38:24

doing the works itself. Nine months

on, how is that assessment coming

0:38:240:38:30

along? Has it been designed? When

will it be published and when Will

0:38:300:38:33

Southwark Council be given the

resources to complete the works?

We

0:38:330:38:41

have made it clear that all local

authorities including Southwark

0:38:410:38:44

Council shall determine for

themselves what work is required for

0:38:440:38:46

fire safety. That is the number one

issue. And if they need financial

0:38:460:38:53

flexibility to help pay for that,

that will not be turned down. We

0:38:530:39:00

have more than 40 local authorities

that we are in discussion with.

0:39:000:39:07

There is not one local authority

that has wanted to discuss this

0:39:070:39:10

where we have turned out that

discussion. We want to give them the

0:39:100:39:14

financial flexibility they need.

As

a west London near neighbour,

0:39:140:39:18

residents in the London borough of

Ealing can see Grenfell, the charred

0:39:180:39:21

coffin in the sky was bypassed by it

yesterday and my constituent John

0:39:210:39:27

Metcalfe was at the silent march

last night. He says that there were

0:39:270:39:30

massive numbers and the sense of

injustice was overwhelming. The

0:39:300:39:34

minister has repeatedly said public

safety is paramount. What is he

0:39:340:39:37

doing to instil public confidence

into the inquiry and the aftermath?

0:39:370:39:41

Identikit was ever there. -- I don't

think it was that.

The honourable

0:39:410:39:48

lady is right to raise the issue of

building more public confidence with

0:39:480:39:52

the local community, not just the

former residence of Grenfell Tower,

0:39:520:39:58

but the immediate community. Much

work has been done both by the

0:39:580:40:03

Council, as well as residents

themselves, with government support,

0:40:030:40:07

for example the group that has been

set up by the victims of the

0:40:070:40:13

tragedy, Grenfell United. We have

worked with them and given them

0:40:130:40:15

support and we will continue to do

that. But I think she will

0:40:150:40:19

appreciate it may take years to

build the right level of confidence.

0:40:190:40:23

Part of that process is also making

sure the community is listened to at

0:40:230:40:27

every step of the way and they are

treated respectfully. For example,

0:40:270:40:31

the news that I have shared with the

house today, I determined it was a

0:40:310:40:36

very important that the bereaved

were told last night in advance of

0:40:360:40:39

them not hearing at first in

Parliament. That is the way we

0:40:390:40:44

continue to work with the community

and help in every way we can.

I

0:40:440:40:49

would like to say about the

Secretary of State's commence on

0:40:490:40:54

housing survivors do not equate with

my experience. We have many

0:40:540:41:00

households still waiting for any

kind of offer that is suitable for

0:41:000:41:03

them. But my question goes back to

the fire door situation. I had a

0:41:030:41:09

message this morning from an elderly

architect friend of mine. He was

0:41:090:41:14

active and worked as part of the

team on the Grenfell Tower and

0:41:140:41:18

estate. From his experience, the

architects of the time were

0:41:180:41:25

specifying fire doors of one hour.

Architects knew what they were doing

0:41:250:41:29

in those days and they designed the

building and signed off at the end

0:41:290:41:33

of it. They were responsible from

beginning to end. In the 1970s, fire

0:41:330:41:39

doors were supposed to last for one

hour. What are now down to 30

0:41:390:41:43

minutes. Can we please reconsider

whether or not, in buildings of that

0:41:430:41:48

size, half an hour is enough?

First

of all, let me reiterate the latest

0:41:480:41:58

figures I have of the 209 households

from Grenfell Tower that need to be

0:41:580:42:07

rehoused. 184 have accepted offers

of temporary or permanent

0:42:070:42:11

accommodation. It leaves 25 that

have not accepted either offer us

0:42:110:42:16

back. There are now over 300 units

available of different sizes and

0:42:160:42:20

types in different locations, and

the family liaison officers and key

0:42:200:42:25

workers are working with each

family. As I said earlier, we will

0:42:250:42:31

not rush this. It will be done at

the pace that the survivors want.

0:42:310:42:34

She asked me about the fire doors

and whether one hour is correct

0:42:340:42:38

versus half an hour. This is exactly

one of the reasons why I have set up

0:42:380:42:44

the independent building regulation

fire safety inquiry, the work being

0:42:440:42:49

done by Dame Judith Hackitt. I know

this is an issue she will be looking

0:42:490:42:53

at.

We now, to a ministerial

statement. It is on the Burma

0:42:530:43:00

update. Minister of State. Mark

Field.

Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you

0:43:000:43:11

for the opportunity to update the

House on the desperate plight of

0:43:110:43:16

Burma's Rohingya. In the week that

the UN fact-finding mission on Burma

0:43:160:43:20

has reported the human rights

Council with its interim findings.

0:43:200:43:22

The insert the community has

repeatedly called upon the Burmese

0:43:220:43:26

authorities to allow that

fact-finding mission to enter Burma.

0:43:260:43:32

Regrettably, Burma continues to

refuse access. Despite this, through

0:43:320:43:37

interviewing Rohingya refugees in

both Bangladesh and Malaysia, the

0:43:370:43:41

interim report revealed credible

evidence of widespread and

0:43:410:43:44

systematic abuse, rape and murder of

Rohingya people and the destruction

0:43:440:43:49

of their homes and villages,

primarily by the Burmese military.

0:43:490:43:54

This is not only a human tragedy, it

is a humanitarian catastrophe. Since

0:43:540:44:03

August 2017, nearly 680,000 Rohingya

refugees have sought shelter in

0:44:030:44:07

Bangladesh. There have been some

suggestions, including by the

0:44:070:44:12

Foreign Affairs Committee, that the

UK failed to see this crisis coming.

0:44:120:44:15

With respect, I disagree. Let us be

clear what led to this situation.

0:44:150:44:24

The Rohingya have suffered

persecution in Rakhine for decades.

0:44:240:44:26

Such rights as they have had have

been progressively diminished under

0:44:260:44:33

successive military governments.

They have been victims of systematic

0:44:330:44:37

violence before, most recently in

2012 and late in 2016. On these more

0:44:370:44:44

recent occasions, Rohingya fled

their homes, some to internally

0:44:440:44:48

displaced persons camps elsewhere in

Rakhine, some to other nations over

0:44:480:44:52

land or sea. So the outbreak of

vicious hostility these past six

0:44:520:44:57

months is only the latest episode in

a long-lasting cycle of violence. We

0:44:570:45:03

have been urging the Burmese

civilian government to take action

0:45:030:45:06

to stop that situation deteriorating

since it came into power two years

0:45:060:45:09

ago. What was unprecedented and

unforeseen about this most recent

0:45:090:45:15

violence was its scale and

intensity. A recent report by the

0:45:150:45:20

international crisis group rightly

noted that there can be no military

0:45:200:45:24

solution alone. The August the 25th

attack by the Salvation Army

0:45:240:45:34

militants from Burmese security

forces was clearly an unacceptable

0:45:340:45:36

and deliberate provocation, but the

Burmese military's relentless

0:45:360:45:42

response since has been utterly

appalling and entirely inexcusable.

0:45:420:45:46

Its operations only last week on the

Burma border with Bangladesh were

0:45:460:45:49

supposedly directed against another

wave of militants. Whether or not

0:45:490:45:54

that explanation is to be believed,

the impact of the Burmese military's

0:45:540:45:59

actions was to terrorise thousands

of Rohingya living in the area and

0:45:590:46:03

to encourage ever more civilians to

cross over into Bangladesh. I once

0:46:030:46:10

again commend the generosity of the

government and people of Bangladesh

0:46:100:46:12

for opening their doors to these

desperate refugees. The UK remains

0:46:120:46:16

one of the largest bilateral aid

donors to the crisis. We have

0:46:160:46:20

committed some £59 million in the

past six months to help ensure the

0:46:200:46:27

refugees' well-being. This includes

5 million of matched funding for the

0:46:270:46:31

generous public donations from

British citizens to the Disasters

0:46:310:46:34

Emergency Committee appeal. My right

honourable friend, the International

0:46:340:46:39

Development Secretary, visited

Bangladesh last November and

0:46:390:46:41

announced the latest UK package of

support including four survivors of

0:46:410:46:46

sexual and other violence. We

anticipate the multi-agency plan for

0:46:460:46:52

the next phase of humanitarian

support from March till the end of

0:46:520:46:55

the year to be published imminently.

As the International Development

0:46:550:46:58

Secretary herself has confirmed

during her Bangladesh visit, the UK

0:46:580:47:02

remains and will remain committed to

the Rohingya now and, I suspect, for

0:47:020:47:08

many years to come. At the end of

last year, the UK Government

0:47:080:47:13

deployed British doctors, nurses and

firefighters from our emergency

0:47:130:47:15

medical teams to Bangladesh to

tackle an outbreak of deadly

0:47:150:47:20

diphtheria in the refugee camps. In

northern Rakhine, where humanitarian

0:47:200:47:26

access remains restricted, the UK is

providing £2 million support via the

0:47:260:47:33

World Food Programme and a further

million via the Red Cross, one of

0:47:330:47:37

the few international organisations

that has access to that part of

0:47:370:47:41

Burma. We stand ready to do more as

soon as we are permitted full

0:47:410:47:46

access. We continue to work in

cooperation with international

0:47:460:47:49

partners to find a solution to this

crisis, focusing international

0:47:490:47:55

pressure on the Burmese authorities

and security forces. At the UN

0:47:550:47:58

Security Council, the UK has since

the final week of August repeatedly

0:47:580:48:03

raised this crisis as an issue for

debate, most recently on the 13th of

0:48:030:48:08

February this year. The existence of

the UN fact-finding mission is in no

0:48:080:48:12

small part due to British diplomacy,

and I have personally engaged and

0:48:120:48:18

will continue to do so with its

members. Last November, the UK was

0:48:180:48:21

instrumental in securing the first

UN Security Council presidential

0:48:210:48:25

statement on Burma for a decade,

which delivered a clear message that

0:48:250:48:29

the Burmese authorities should

protect all civilians within Burma,

0:48:290:48:34

create the conditions for refugees

to return and to allow for

0:48:340:48:37

humanitarian access in Rakhine

state. Late last month, I was

0:48:370:48:41

privileged to attend the EU foreign

affairs Council in Brussels, where a

0:48:410:48:47

programme of sanctions against

senior Burmese military figures was

0:48:470:48:49

outlined. This was approved

unanimously and we hope to bring

0:48:490:48:55

this work soon to the attention of

the UN Security Council. Many

0:48:550:49:00

honourable members in this House

remained committed to helping

0:49:000:49:04

resolve the appalling situation

faced by the Rohingya community and

0:49:040:49:08

I welcome that continued engagement.

I visited both countries myself in

0:49:080:49:12

September and returned to Burma in

November. During these visits, I met

0:49:120:49:17

displaced Rohingya, but also Hindu

and Buddhist communities in Rakhine

0:49:170:49:20

and heard harrowing accounts of

human rights violations and abuses.

0:49:200:49:23

It was clear that these communities

remain deeply divided and there is a

0:49:230:49:29

palpable sense of mutual fear and

distrust. I also met State

0:49:290:49:35

Counsellor & Sukhi, the Ministry of

Defence and the deputy Foreign

0:49:350:49:38

Minister to reiterate the need to

take action to end the violence and

0:49:380:49:43

to allow a path towards the safe

return of the refugees. During his

0:49:430:49:49

visit to Burma last month, my Rthe

Foreign Secretary also pressed in a

0:49:490:49:54

personal meeting with Aung San Suu

Kyi that the necessary steps be

0:49:540:49:57

taken to create the conditions

conducive for the return of

0:49:570:50:01

refugees. He flew over Rakhine and

saw for himself the scale of the

0:50:010:50:08

destruction of land and property

that has taken place. He also

0:50:080:50:11

visited Bangladesh, where he met

Prime Minister Sheikh Hasina and

0:50:110:50:15

Foreign Minister Ali and visited the

camps in Cox's Bazar, hearing

0:50:150:50:18

distressing accounts from survivors

as well as their heartfelt hopes for

0:50:180:50:21

a better future and their desire to

return safely to Burma. I think our

0:50:210:50:29

visits have reinforced our

determination to help resolve this

0:50:290:50:33

appalling crisis. I recognise that

this House remains committed to

0:50:330:50:37

ensuring that the human rights of

refugees across the world and

0:50:370:50:41

particularly of the Rohingya are

protected and we welcome the

0:50:410:50:43

resolution of the House as recently

as the 24th of January 20 -- 2080.

0:50:430:50:53

We believe there are four

priorities. First, we must continue

0:50:530:50:58

to address humanitarian needs,

especially the needs of victims of

0:50:580:51:02

sexual violence in both northern

Rakhine and in Bangladesh. This

0:51:020:51:06

includes assisting the humanitarian

agencies working in the vicinity of

0:51:060:51:14

Cox's Bazar to help prepare for the

approaching monsoon and cyclone

0:51:140:51:17

season, which commences potentially

in a matter of weeks. We shall

0:51:170:51:21

continue to work with international

humanitarian agencies delivering aid

0:51:210:51:25

in Rakhine state and to support

Baghdad addition in its efforts to

0:51:250:51:27

help those fleeing the violence.

Secondly, we must continue the

0:51:270:51:31

patient work towards achieving a

safe, voluntary and dignified return

0:51:310:51:38

of refugees. We shall press for the

UNHCR to oversee this process and

0:51:380:51:43

ensure full verification of any

returns on both sides of the border.

0:51:430:51:49

As the globally mandated body, the

UNHCR remains best equipped to

0:51:490:51:57

oversee this process. Thirdly, we

must continue international progress

0:51:570:52:03

towards bringing to justice the

perpetrators of human rights

0:52:030:52:06

violence including sexual violence

in Rakhine. The international

0:52:060:52:11

community has agreed to make the

case to the Burmese authorities for

0:52:110:52:14

a credible, transparent inquiry, and

United into national pressure is

0:52:140:52:22

essential to achieve this aim. The

UN fact-finding mission is just the

0:52:220:52:27

first, but an important step in what

is likely to be a long road ahead.

0:52:270:52:30

It produced its interim report on

Monday, reflecting the violent

0:52:300:52:37

military led actions against the

Rohingya and other minorities in

0:52:370:52:43

Burma. We shall continue to support

its important work, including urging

0:52:430:52:47

Burma to allow the mission and

restricted access. We shall also

0:52:470:52:51

continue to provide support to build

the capacity of the Bangladesh

0:52:510:52:54

national human rights commission to

properly investigate and document

0:52:540:53:01

sexual violence amongst Rohingya

refugees. As Canada's special envoy

0:53:010:53:06

to Burma has said, and I saw him at

the Foreign Office a few weeks ago,

0:53:060:53:10

those responsible for breaches of

international law and crimes against

0:53:100:53:14

humanity must be brought to justice.

This applies, in my view, to all

0:53:140:53:19

involved, state and non-state

actors, senior military personnel

0:53:190:53:22

and all individuals in authority.

0:53:220:53:31

The UN special reporter for human

rights in Burma recently stated in

0:53:310:53:34

the conflict has all the hallmarks

of genocide. However I must tell the

0:53:340:53:39

House that the only path to

prosecution for genocide or crimes

0:53:390:53:44

against humanity is via the

International Criminal Court, it is

0:53:440:53:48

a legal process. Burma is not a

party to the Rome Statute and must

0:53:480:53:53

either prefer itself to the court or

be referred by the UN Security

0:53:530:53:56

Council. Neither eventuality is

likely I fear in the short term.

0:53:560:54:02

That should not stop us from

supporting those who are continuing

0:54:020:54:07

to collate and collect evidence for

use in such a future prosecution.

0:54:070:54:13

Finally, to achieve a long-term

resolution to the crisis in Burma, I

0:54:130:54:17

believe that even in these desperate

circumstances, the UK should play a

0:54:170:54:21

leading role in trying to support

democratic transition and the

0:54:210:54:27

promotion of freedom, tolerance and

diversity. We will continue to

0:54:270:54:31

engage attempts to peacefully

resolve many of Burma's on internal

0:54:310:54:34

conflicts and to bring all parts of

the state apparatus under democratic

0:54:340:54:39

civilian control. We stand ready to

lead the international community in

0:54:390:54:43

ensuring implementation of Kofi

Anand's recliner advisory committee

0:54:430:54:47

report. This is designed to deliver

the relevant for the people of Kainz

0:54:470:54:53

date including the Rohingya and

address the underlying causes of the

0:54:530:54:56

crisis. --

0:54:560:55:00

making progress on ensuring

citizenship for the Rohingya who are

0:55:040:55:11

otherwise regarded by many as

stateless and giving confidence that

0:55:110:55:14

they have a future as fully fledged

citizens of Burma. Furthermore the

0:55:140:55:20

situation in Burma serves as the

clearest possible example of why our

0:55:200:55:24

government will continue to uphold

its commitments to early warning and

0:55:240:55:27

preventing the risk of atrocity

crimes. In the context of broader

0:55:270:55:33

conflict protection and peace

building work. The lessons from this

0:55:330:55:37

human tragedy must be used to

prevent similar situations

0:55:370:55:40

developing in the future and I stand

ready to work with members across

0:55:400:55:45

the House and NGOs with a real

passion in this area to get a

0:55:450:55:50

framework in place for the feature.

The UK Government intends to remain

0:55:500:55:55

the vanguard of international action

to support a full range of

0:55:550:55:59

humanitarian, political and

diplomatic efforts to help resolve

0:55:590:56:02

this appalling situation. We shall

continue to press Burma to

0:56:020:56:06

facilitate safe, voluntary and

dignified return to the winger

0:56:060:56:08

Muslims under the oversight and

properly, fully to address the

0:56:080:56:16

underlying causes of this violence.

-- Rohingya Muslims. We must not

0:56:160:56:20

lose sight of the fact that the

Rohingya community have suffered for

0:56:200:56:24

generations and will need continued

support to live their lives they

0:56:240:56:27

choose. Nor will we fail to take

account of the wider picture in

0:56:270:56:31

Burma and the potential that

sustained motion has towards an

0:56:310:56:34

open, democratic society with the

opportunities it would offer all its

0:56:340:56:39

people. We shall push forward with

persistence, focus and energy. It is

0:56:390:56:44

our international and our moral duty

to do so.

Let me thank the Minister

0:56:440:56:56

for that clear and comprehensive

update of the situation of the

0:56:560:57:03

Rohingya and for giving me a advance

sight of his statement no one can

0:57:030:57:10

doubt the effort and commitment that

he and his officials personally and

0:57:100:57:15

any Foreign Office and on the ground

are putting into resolving this

0:57:150:57:19

issue. Can I welcome several

specific aspects of his update?

0:57:190:57:25

First, the interim report of the UN

fact-finding mission which both in

0:57:250:57:28

its level of detail about the

atrocities suffered by the Rohingya

0:57:280:57:33

and the unflinching language it uses

to describe those genocidal acts is

0:57:330:57:38

it vital first step in building a

case against the individuals

0:57:380:57:45

responsible. Second, I welcome the

public 's generosity and the

0:57:450:57:52

government 's continued commitment

to providing humanitarian relief to

0:57:520:57:55

the Rohingya refugees trapped. I

applaud the tireless work of British

0:57:550:58:05

medical professionals seeking to

stop the spread of disease in the

0:58:050:58:07

camps. Third, I welcome the Minister

of State's words concerning the role

0:58:070:58:16

of UNHCR in ensuring the safe,

dignified and voluntary return and

0:58:160:58:20

sustainable future for those

refugees, and the pressure the

0:58:200:58:26

international community must

continue to put on the government of

0:58:260:58:30

Myanmar, to allow the UNHCR to

dictate when and how it will be

0:58:300:58:35

appropriate to begin that

repatriation process. I welcome the

0:58:350:58:42

Minister of State 's continued

support for the Kofi Anand reports

0:58:420:58:46

and invite all, long-term reforms

set out in that report to give full

0:58:460:58:50

rights and lasting protection duty

wrecking the community in Myanmar.

0:58:500:58:53

We all know the Democratic and civil

society development have not

0:58:530:58:59

improved as we had hoped two years

ago. Only this week I was hearing

0:58:590:59:05

about 100,000 displaced people in

another state as well. Fifth, I

0:59:050:59:12

would like to welcome the progress

he mentioned in terms of agreeing EU

0:59:120:59:16

wide sanctions against leading

Myanmar generals. Only two weeks

0:59:160:59:22

ago, Foreign Office ministers were

avoiding a debate and then voting

0:59:220:59:27

down our amendments, so I was

pleased that the Prime Minister

0:59:270:59:30

expressed a change of heart

yesterday, not least because we

0:59:300:59:36

noticed that the United States had

used these magnets keep provisions

0:59:360:59:41

in order to sanction one of the

generals. Can I also ask the

0:59:410:59:50

Ministry of State if you specific

questions? First, he talked about

0:59:500:59:57

the importance of providing support

for victims of sexual violence and

0:59:571:00:01

documenting the abuse they have

suffered with a view to bringing

1:00:011:00:06

prosecutions at some future date

against those responsible. But he

1:00:061:00:10

will know that it is a concern

across the House that when we last

1:00:101:00:16

received an update on Myanmar, it

was confirmed that only two of the

1:00:161:00:21

70 sexual violence experts employed

as part of the governments of ending

1:00:211:00:27

sexual violence initiative in 2012

have been deployed, had been

1:00:271:00:34

deployed, to work on these cases.

Can I ask the Minister of states,

1:00:341:00:41

have more of those staff now been

deployed to the refugee camps? Are

1:00:411:00:47

the two experts still there? What

are the numbers of people now

1:00:471:00:51

working to support victims and

document their evidence. What

1:00:511:00:56

percentage of the victims of sexual

violence does he estimate have now

1:00:561:01:00

received support and have their

cases documented, whether by UK

1:01:001:01:07

experts or other agencies working on

this issue. Secondly, he noted the

1:01:071:01:12

impending monsoon season, and we are

all aware of the risk those heavy

1:01:121:01:18

rains could turn the existing

humanitarian crisis in the refugee

1:01:181:01:23

camps into something even more

catastrophic. Especially in terms of

1:01:231:01:27

the spread of waterborne disease.

So, can I ask the Ministry of State

1:01:271:01:33

what assessment he is and his

officials have made, both in the

1:01:331:01:43

shortfall in funding to support

refugees and the expected shortfall

1:01:431:01:46

if the monsoon season makes the

crisis worse? If those numbers are

1:01:461:01:51

as high as many of us fear, what

emergency action is the government

1:01:511:01:57

taking with our international

partners to try and plug those gaps?

1:01:571:02:01

Third and finally, we must return to

the issue of how we can best ensure

1:02:011:02:10

the safe, voluntary and we dignified

repatriations -- dignified

1:02:101:02:17

repatriation of Rohingya refugees

and how we can ensure those

1:02:171:02:21

responsible for the atrocities

against them are brought to justice.

1:02:211:02:25

On both issues, while I appreciate

what the Minister has said about the

1:02:251:02:28

pressure the UK has exerted behind

the scenes at the UN, in terms of

1:02:281:02:35

setting up the fact-finding mission

and obtaining the Security Council

1:02:351:02:42

presidential statement, he will

understand the long-standing view on

1:02:421:02:45

this side of the House that it is

time to go further and be more

1:02:451:02:49

public in using the UK's formal role

as pen holder on Myanmar in the UN

1:02:491:02:55

Security Council. To table

resolutions on these vital issues.

1:02:551:03:02

First, to table a resolution setting

down the terms under which

1:03:021:03:07

repatriation process should proceed,

and the future rights and

1:03:071:03:11

protections that must be accorded to

the Rohingya refugees, and

1:03:111:03:16

obligingly Myanmar authorities to

exceed these terms. Secondly, at the

1:03:161:03:22

appropriate time, to table a

resolution referring Myanmar to the

1:03:221:03:25

International Criminal Court, so

that the generals who this week 's

1:03:251:03:32

endlessly dismissed the UN's claims

of ethnic cleansing and genocide and

1:03:321:03:36

said instead that the Rohingya had

burned down their own houses, so

1:03:361:03:40

that they could be brought to

account. The Minister of State spoke

1:03:401:03:46

with candour on the second point,

admitting that such a resolution

1:03:461:03:49

would be difficult to get past the

security council. I would like to

1:03:491:03:55

ask him to expand on this issue.

What steps has the government taken

1:03:551:04:01

to engage with Myanmar's near

neighbour, China, and did the Prime

1:04:011:04:05

Minister raise this issue with the

Chinese on her recent trip? Many of

1:04:051:04:12

us fear that if we do not act

quickly to break this stalemate,

1:04:121:04:17

especially with the monsoon season

coming, we will be having these

1:04:171:04:20

types of updates for too many months

to come, and the humanitarian crisis

1:04:201:04:26

the Minister has described it will

only get worse.

Can I give a bit of

1:04:261:04:34

advice to both benches? It's meant

to be ten and five, I think one was

1:04:341:04:38

16 and the other was seven, so in

future if you could keep to that, I

1:04:381:04:42

didn't want to stop because it's an

important subject but just for the

1:04:421:04:45

record.

Thank you, Mr Deputy

Speaker. The Speaker's office was

1:04:451:04:51

made aware we wanted a slightly

longer statement on this, I

1:04:511:04:54

appreciate the kind words of the

Honourable Lady. In support of

1:04:541:05:03

broadly what we are trying to do,

and I am keen we try as far as we

1:05:031:05:07

can to work together and I

appreciate inevitably these issues

1:05:071:05:11

can be partisan as well but I think

there is a way in which this House

1:05:111:05:15

can expressed its strong views not

least given our pen holder status.

1:05:151:05:19

Let me touch on a view of the

broader issues she mentioned. In

1:05:191:05:23

relation to sexual violence, I will

come back with some details about

1:05:231:05:30

how many civilian experts we have on

the ground and what their ongoing

1:05:301:05:34

situation is and the work being

done. We are confident that

1:05:341:05:39

significant progress has been made,

Rohingya women and children remained

1:05:391:05:44

very vulnerable to gender-based

violence and sexual exploitation. A

1:05:441:05:50

range of organisations, even if they

are not necessarily from the UK

1:05:501:05:56

authorities, are working very

closely with other organisations who

1:05:561:06:00

have specialties in this field to

provide that specialist help

1:06:001:06:04

survivors of sexual violence. This

includes some 30 child friendly

1:06:041:06:09

spaces to support children with

protective services and

1:06:091:06:13

psychological and physiological

support, 25 women's centres offering

1:06:131:06:16

a safe space and support to the

activities of women and girls, and a

1:06:161:06:23

lot of case management for the 2190

survivors of sexual and gender based

1:06:231:06:28

violence. We are also working on the

ground with some 3000 women being

1:06:281:06:37

provided with midwifery care. We are

also having to fund the provision of

1:06:371:06:43

medical services, counselling and

psychological support. I will come

1:06:431:06:49

back to the Honourable Lady in

writing with some further details of

1:06:491:06:53

the issues she raised on that point.

As to the impending cyclone and

1:06:531:07:00

monsoon season, this is obviously a

matter of grave concern. Working

1:07:001:07:05

with international partners, the UK

has done huge amounts already to

1:07:051:07:08

ensure some course of a million

people continue to have access to

1:07:081:07:12

safe drinking water throughout the

rainy season, we have support in

1:07:121:07:19

Kolarov, measles campaigns. More

space will be cleared for further

1:07:191:07:29

camps if existing plans become

uninhabitable. I should also say

1:07:291:07:31

immediately after this statement I

am hoping to meet along with my

1:07:311:07:37

colleague in the House of Lords, to

meet the Bangladeshi Foreign

1:07:371:07:43

Secretary, the most senior civil

servant with foreign affairs

1:07:431:07:51

responsibilities, I have met him on

some occasions before, both here and

1:07:511:07:55

abroad. I undertake that I will be

discussing the concerns, urgent

1:07:551:08:01

concerns about cyclone related

issues.

1:08:011:08:08

Let me say a little bit about

returns and first of all confirm

1:08:081:08:13

that at her meeting in February in

China, the Prime Minister made it

1:08:131:08:21

very clear in a private session with

counterparts the concerns we felt

1:08:211:08:26

about this issue and trying to get

through the UN process. I am hopeful

1:08:261:08:32

that continued pressure...

Unfortunately, DeVito, it is not

1:08:321:08:39

just China, Russia as well --

DeVito. I hope we can put pressure,

1:08:391:08:45

not least with the interim support

being finalised, as the situation

1:08:451:08:52

remains high profile, a sad

situation, I had hoped to come to

1:08:521:08:56

the House on Monday, but other

business, this was the first

1:08:561:09:02

available opportunity to speak to

the House. One of the biggest fears

1:09:021:09:06

all of us have had and the

Bangladeshi authorities is that the

1:09:061:09:10

eyes of the world move away to other

issues. I believe it may return, not

1:09:101:09:17

least because if things go as Disney

as they might do in relation to the

1:09:171:09:22

cyclone season. -- dismally. We will

work towards a UN Security Council

1:09:221:09:29

resolution to call the Burmese

authorities to account. She touches

1:09:291:09:34

on the Magnitsky issue, she is

right, it provides an opportunity.

1:09:341:09:40

Unlike many former Russian citizens

in this country, it is probably fair

1:09:401:09:47

to say many of the Burmese senior

figures do not have huge financial

1:09:471:09:53

interests, either in assets, wanting

to arrive here for visas, having

1:09:531:09:58

children in schools, it is not

somehow a silver bullet, if the

1:09:581:10:06

Magnitsky arrangements are passed

into law, that this will make a

1:10:061:10:10

massive difference as far as

sanctions against senior Burmese

1:10:101:10:14

folk are concerned, but we will

continue to work on that. Finally,

1:10:141:10:18

just to touch on, others may wish to

raise this as well, on the issue of

1:10:181:10:22

the returns process, she will be a

one the government limit of

1:10:221:10:28

Bangladesh and Burma signed an

agreement, but as it stands, to be

1:10:281:10:34

honest, it is not just the UK,

everybody there would assess that

1:10:341:10:40

Northern Rakhine is simply not safe

for returns. I spoke at great length

1:10:401:10:45

with the Lord on the advisory

commission and we had a meeting in

1:10:451:10:51

the Foreign Office last week and he

had seen on the ground and spoken to

1:10:511:10:55

people, it is clear we are still, I

fear, quite a considerable way from

1:10:551:11:00

there being any possibility of safe

voluntary or dignified returns to

1:11:001:11:04

Rakhine State.

We should not forget

the plight of the Christian

1:11:041:11:15

community to whom we owe a

particular debt of honour,

1:11:151:11:20

dispossessed by violence and

prevented from returning by mining

1:11:201:11:23

interests, and a sinister link

between the two.

My right honourable

1:11:231:11:29

friend makes an entirely fair point,

it was alluded to by the honourable

1:11:291:11:35

lady, that the issues around

minority communities are not

1:11:351:11:42

restricted to Rohingya, this is the

largest community treated in an

1:11:421:11:48

appalling way by the Burmese

authorities, but there are other

1:11:481:11:52

minorities in the country and

Christian minorities being

1:11:521:11:54

persecuted and we will continue to

keep the pressure on the Burmese

1:11:541:11:57

authority.

Thank you. I would like

to also thank the Minister for

1:11:571:12:02

advance sight of the statement. It

goes without saying in this House,

1:12:021:12:07

the humanitarian tragedy has reached

an unthinkable scale. I visited with

1:12:071:12:14

the international development

committee last week in mega camp in

1:12:141:12:18

Bangladesh, the enormity of what you

see when you have almost 1 million

1:12:181:12:22

people and three, four square miles,

it is quite unbelievable, lost for

1:12:221:12:29

words to explain just how big the

humanitarian emergency years. There

1:12:291:12:34

are 500 people still coming across

every week, across the border, from

1:12:341:12:40

Burma to Bangladesh, stories of

atrocities and loss, murder, rape

1:12:401:12:43

and the rest. Right now we're facing

an imminent challenge, as we heard

1:12:431:12:51

earlier, weeks away, running out of

time, the monsoon pending, potential

1:12:511:12:55

cyclone. I want to hear more from

the Minister on what specifically

1:12:551:12:59

has been done on this, flooding and

imminent landslides, it could lead

1:12:591:13:04

to further devastating loss of lives

and subsequent waterborne diseases.

1:13:041:13:13

The UK Government plans to work

towards returning refugees to Burma,

1:13:131:13:17

slow and considered. We share the

view of the UN in the SNP and aid

1:13:171:13:22

groups that this could cross the

refugees back into danger and lasts

1:13:221:13:25

week we heard from the Bangladesh

minister it is unsafe for the

1:13:251:13:29

Rohingya to return. We welcome the

report by the UN fact-finding

1:13:291:13:32

mission which adds to the

overwhelming evidence that what has

1:13:321:13:36

taken place in Burma is human rights

violations of the most serious kind,

1:13:361:13:41

like amounting to crimes under

international law. We hope the UN

1:13:411:13:46

special Rapoport said it had the

hallmarks of genocide. My own city

1:13:461:13:51

of Dundee is considering the

withdrawal of the freedom of the

1:13:511:13:53

city given to Aung San Suu Kyi for

human rights and democracy and for

1:13:531:13:58

upholding international law and for

my constituents, it is profoundly

1:13:581:14:03

important. The Minister has said he

does not agree with the conclusion

1:14:031:14:05

of the Foreign Affairs Select

Committee inquiry that the UK failed

1:14:051:14:08

to see the crisis coming. This

conclusion was backed by

1:14:081:14:12

overwhelming evidence. The unchecked

hate speech, lack of government

1:14:121:14:18

control over security forces,

non-state and pseudo- non-state

1:14:181:14:22

groups, no growing nationalist

support the military and increased

1:14:221:14:29

incidences of identity -based

attack, serious indicators of

1:14:291:14:31

escalating violence against the

Rohingya. It would help to predict

1:14:311:14:42

incidents of violence, mass

atrocities and institutional

1:14:421:14:45

violence... May I urge the work on

the index starts immediately and may

1:14:451:14:49

I urge the Minister to announce

today he will begin the work to get

1:14:491:14:54

the index and away? Could he say

what lessons have been learned

1:14:541:14:57

regarding atrocity prevention and

how they will be applied in Burma

1:14:571:15:02

and elsewhere in the future?

I think

the spokesman for the SNP for his

1:15:021:15:08

kind words about our work that we

are trying to do across Parliament,

1:15:081:15:16

together. On the Cyclone

preparedness, the UK is working with

1:15:161:15:21

a number of partners in Bangladesh

to work on strengthening

1:15:211:15:28

infrastructure and ensuring at risk

households are provided with shelter

1:15:281:15:32

materials, part and parcel of the

process is to try to persuade the

1:15:321:15:37

Bangladeshi authorities, and I will

do that in this meeting this

1:15:371:15:39

afternoon, and we will express the

strength of feeling that we need to

1:15:391:15:43

open up more space in order that the

confinement that the refugees are

1:15:431:15:47

under which potentially could be

calamitous if a cyclone hits in that

1:15:471:15:55

area, that the confinement is

restricted as far as possible. Let

1:15:551:15:58

me say, I did not... I did not wish

to be critical of what the Foreign

1:15:581:16:05

Affairs Committee had concluded, not

least with the chairman sitting in

1:16:051:16:07

the benches behind me, the issue was

really this has been an issue on

1:16:071:16:13

Burma that we have not been quiet

for the fact that the Rohingya were

1:16:131:16:21

continually going to be under

pressure, the notion it came out of

1:16:211:16:25

the blue sky is one that we would

contend is not the case. I have to

1:16:251:16:30

say, being candid, everyone had a

sense of wishful thinking, speaking

1:16:301:16:35

earlier on, the right honourable

gentleman for New Forest West who

1:16:351:16:41

had a Dfid role and was Minister at

that time, not blaming him, the

1:16:411:16:46

whole international community was so

hopeful that after decades of

1:16:461:16:50

military rule in Burma, going back

to 1962, the creation of the state

1:16:501:16:58

in 1947, 48, arguably, suddenly, we

would have a big surge towards

1:16:581:17:02

democracy. The constitution that we

were all party in the international

1:17:021:17:05

community to seeing set up and I'm

afraid, it provided a massive

1:17:051:17:11

difficulty from day one once Aung

San Suu Kyi became the state

1:17:111:17:17

councillor. The power still in the

hands of the military meant we

1:17:171:17:20

overlooked, for example, the

Rohingya, their rights, they were

1:17:201:17:27

not included in the census, they

were not allowed to vote. We

1:17:271:17:31

recognise in hindsight that gave

succour to the Burmese military to

1:17:311:17:34

think they could get away with what

they have got away with. There was a

1:17:341:17:38

lot of wishful thinking. Some of the

best motivations in the world, we

1:17:381:17:43

wanted some progress, and after

decades of the darkness in a

1:17:431:17:47

military dictatorship, almost a

close state, we looked upon any

1:17:471:17:50

advancement as being something we

should grasp hold of and it is a

1:17:501:17:54

lesson for the future. I want to

work with many NGOs, the approach as

1:17:541:18:01

a good example of a group to try to

work to wards having a set of

1:18:011:18:10

policies together that we can look

at conflict prevention for the

1:18:101:18:12

future. Whilst many hundreds of

thousands of lives have been

1:18:121:18:19

blighted, tens of thousands have

been ended by this dreadful event,

1:18:191:18:23

and we know that this is still

ongoing. The best legacy we can pay

1:18:231:18:28

to the Rohingya is not just to try

to get a better life for them, to

1:18:281:18:31

ensure they have citizenship, a

stake in the longer term in Burmese

1:18:311:18:35

society, but to ensure their

sacrifices, their hardship they have

1:18:351:18:44

gone through, that it can be used as

an example for the rest of the world

1:18:441:18:48

to ensure we have those changes.

That is ultimately partly an

1:18:481:18:53

academic and practical exercise and

we need to work again within the

1:18:531:18:57

international community to bring

that to pass.

The in October, I

1:18:571:19:05

believe I'm right in saying, one of

the largest and most congested

1:19:051:19:08

refugee camps in the whole world,

equivalent to the city the size of

1:19:081:19:13

Bristol, yet it has no hospital,

inadequate schooling facilities,

1:19:131:19:18

very few roads. It would seem to me

the biggest risk to the Rohingyas is

1:19:181:19:23

of an outbreak of disease in this

massive refugee camp and it would

1:19:231:19:27

seem to me that the number

humanitarian priority is that this

1:19:271:19:32

can't be broken up, extra space be

found, so that if the worst comes to

1:19:321:19:38

the worst, an outbreak, but it can

be contained -- the number one

1:19:381:19:44

humanitarian priority is that this

camp be broken up.

I agree. It is an

1:19:441:19:49

issue that the international

community will have to work together

1:19:491:19:52

with the Bangladeshi government

towards, but it is an issue we know

1:19:521:19:55

we are very much focusing on. In

disease prevention, I think we have

1:19:551:20:02

had a good track record, we can be

proud of the work we did to nip the

1:20:021:20:07

diphtheria outbreak in the bud, but

I am by no means complacent we will

1:20:071:20:11

not have similar diseases being

quite prominent, cholera, as well as

1:20:111:20:16

diphtheria, in the months to come.

Can I thank the Minister for his

1:20:161:20:20

complaints of statement today? I go

his words in describing this as

1:20:201:20:25

humanitarian catastrophe. Can I

reinforce what the honourable

1:20:251:20:27

gentleman from Kettering has just

said? The sheer scale of the camp,

1:20:271:20:35

ten times the size of the refugee

camp in Jordan. I welcome the fact

1:20:351:20:40

the Minister is meeting the Foreign

Minister from Bangladesh this

1:20:401:20:44

afternoon but can I pressed him that

really we need to say to Bangladesh

1:20:441:20:48

at the most senior level that more

needs to be done to prepare for the

1:20:481:20:52

rainy season, sightings and

monsoons? Can I urge that our Prime

1:20:521:20:57

Minister speaks to the Bangladeshi

Prime Minister to ask the

1:20:571:21:03

Bangladeshi Prime Minister to take

it personal lead? Otherwise the

1:21:031:21:08

humanitarian catastrophe will be

multiplied in the weeks and months

1:21:081:21:11

ahead.

May I thank the honourable

gentleman for his words? He is

1:21:111:21:20

absolutely right, I know his

committee has done tremendous work

1:21:201:21:23

and only wish they had been able to

go to the other side of the border,

1:21:231:21:27

it would have been very instructive,

but the work they have done in

1:21:271:21:31

Bangladesh is of tremendous

importance. We are where the heavy

1:21:311:21:35

rains and cyclones could have a very

severe impact on the aggregate of

1:21:351:21:41

nearly 1 million Rohingya already in

Cox's Bazar as follows on host

1:21:411:21:45

communities -- we are both aware.

The host communities living in that

1:21:451:21:49

part of Bangladesh, greatly to the

credit of those communities and the

1:21:491:21:56

authorities Bangladesh, there have

not been tensions between the two

1:21:561:21:58

but we cannot take that for granted.

We are ready working in great

1:21:581:22:03

earnest with the government of

Bangladesh and humanitarian partners

1:22:031:22:06

to improve preparedness, I will

ensure his concerns are passed on,

1:22:061:22:11

not just when I speak to

counterparts, but also in dealings

1:22:111:22:15

with the Bangladeshi High

Commissioner to this country and I

1:22:151:22:18

hope you will feel able to play a

stronger role as he can in being

1:22:181:22:22

able to make the robust case he

does.

I commend my right honourable

1:22:221:22:27

friend for his statement, keeping

the House updated on the plight of

1:22:271:22:33

the Rohingya Muslims. He mentioned

in his statement the plight of other

1:22:331:22:38

minorities, namely the Hindus,

Buddhists and raised by my

1:22:381:22:42

honourable friend, the Christian

community. Can he say further what

1:22:421:22:46

is going to be done at the UN level

and by the British Government to

1:22:461:22:50

protect those minorities who at the

moment do not seem to have any

1:22:501:22:55

defenders at all?

1:22:551:23:02

It is unfair to suggest they have no

defenders I think but I do except

1:23:021:23:12

the focus has been on the Rohingya,

a stateless group in their society.

1:23:121:23:17

If the Hindu, Buddhist and Christian

groups that are being persecuted

1:23:171:23:21

within the Rakhine State, they find

themselves in a position where they

1:23:211:23:29

at least have some sort of

citizenship rights within Burma. We

1:23:291:23:33

will do our level best and I know my

honourable friend is aware of the

1:23:331:23:39

work we do in relation to freedom of

religion and belief, it is something

1:23:391:23:42

we feel strongly about. Not just

within Burma but elsewhere. I must

1:23:421:23:49

say one of the concerns one does

have is that within that part of the

1:23:491:23:56

world, one sees what happens with

the deterioration of human rights in

1:23:561:24:00

Sri Lanka, the situation even in

Thailand were suddenly there is a

1:24:001:24:04

sense of the Buddhist community

against the Muslim community that

1:24:041:24:08

permeates beyond Burmese borders.

That would be a calamitous state of

1:24:081:24:10

affairs.

The Minister has reminded

the House today that the UN special

1:24:101:24:18

raconteur for human rights in Burma

has described this conflict as

1:24:181:24:26

having the hallmarks of genocide, it

is therefore imperative that

1:24:261:24:29

everything is done to bring the

various actors to Justice at the

1:24:291:24:32

conclusion of it. The Minister is

right to remind us about the

1:24:321:24:36

challenges we face in reaching that

and, and that there is an immediate

1:24:361:24:41

issue here. The most compelling

evidence that will inform any

1:24:411:24:45

prosecutions in future is to be

found now. Could the Minister tell

1:24:451:24:49

me what the government is doing to

ensure that every piece of evidence

1:24:491:24:54

that is available for future use is

being sought and acquired at the

1:24:541:24:59

moment?

Please be assured we are

doing our level best to make sure

1:24:591:25:08

there is a full collation and

collection of all evidence to which

1:25:081:25:12

she refers. We must be patient. We

must recognise this is a painstaking

1:25:121:25:17

process. I wish we could move more

quickly towards concerns in relation

1:25:171:25:21

to the process on genocide or crimes

against humanity but please be

1:25:211:25:25

assured we are very patient in

collecting that evidence and when

1:25:251:25:29

the moment arises we will be able to

return to that.

May I start by

1:25:291:25:36

apologising for the fact that this

week the Foreign Affairs Committee

1:25:361:25:38

will not be presenting its report to

the House because there is no

1:25:381:25:44

turning back the tide of business so

I apologise to the Minister for

1:25:441:25:48

Kettering, my father is currently

one of the people out training

1:25:481:25:54

Burmese lawyers and is in Burma as

one of the judges sent out by Her

1:25:541:25:58

Majesty's government so I must

declare that. Can I ask what the

1:25:581:26:03

Minister is doing, they work so far

has been exemplary, because this is

1:26:031:26:10

absolutely a joint effects we are

trying to achieve, but would he not

1:26:101:26:16

agree Tasci and has a particular

role to play and Britain's role

1:26:161:26:22

alongside that could be game

changing?

I think Bastien's role

1:26:221:26:28

could be game changing. He will also

appreciate that they want to work

1:26:281:26:33

together and clearly there are

tensions with the position, for

1:26:331:26:38

example with Indonesia on the one

hand and Thailand on the other. It

1:26:381:26:41

is more difficult for them to have a

line on this matter. It is something

1:26:411:26:48

I raise whenever I meet ASEAN

figures. We will be working with

1:26:481:26:54

Singapore who have the chairmanship

of ASEAN this year. There is a

1:26:541:26:58

meeting at the end of this year but

it will be an increasingly important

1:26:581:27:01

issue to be raised. Three members of

Tim tonne, Singapore, Malaysia and

1:27:011:27:08

Brunei will be present where we can

raise these issues. -- three members

1:27:081:27:16

of ASEAN.

The imminent threat from

the monsoon range must be stressed.

1:27:161:27:27

Anyone who has seen the camps will

know the flimsy, plastic and bamboo

1:27:271:27:32

shacks that are built on loose on

earth on deforested land will be

1:27:321:27:36

simply swept away and that thousands

of people could die. Could I urge

1:27:361:27:42

the Minister when he raises with the

Foreign Minister of Bangladesh this

1:27:421:27:46

issue, to stress that it's not

simply the intent of getting more

1:27:461:27:50

land brought into play that's

important, the important thing is

1:27:501:27:54

action to achieve it. And action

within days and weeks, not months.

I

1:27:541:28:02

thank the gentleman, he has seen

with his own eyes and he is

1:28:021:28:06

absolutely right, this is

potentially a calamitous situation.

1:28:061:28:10

The deforestation makes much of that

land unviable for anything other

1:28:101:28:15

than an emergency, short-term basis

and he is quite right to point that

1:28:151:28:18

out. I will do so requests.

Can I

echo the Minister's tribute to the

1:28:181:28:28

people and government of Bangladesh

for the generosity shown to the

1:28:281:28:33

Rohingya refugees? What prospect,

realistically, does he see any

1:28:331:28:39

significant number of returns to

Rakhine State in say, the next 12

1:28:391:28:43

months? He is absolutely right to

highlight the pernicious effects of

1:28:431:28:48

the 1982 citizenship law, does he

see any realistic prospect of that

1:28:481:28:51

being reformed as he rightly

proposed in his statement?

Sometimes

1:28:511:28:59

the wheels of diplomacy move more

slowly but that is not to suggest we

1:28:591:29:02

aren't going to be patient to work

towards this. I believe they do need

1:29:021:29:06

to be returned soon, as it will be

aware there is an election coming up

1:29:061:29:10

in Bangladesh and I think that is

one of the reasons the Bangladeshi

1:29:101:29:15

authorities will be keen to seem

some movement towards return.

1:29:151:29:19

Fundamentally we cannot accept that,

the international community will not

1:29:191:29:25

accept returns unless they are safe,

dignified and one tree. As regards

1:29:251:29:29

his other point, again I would

strongly suggest this is going to

1:29:291:29:38

take quite some time to work

through. -- safe, dignified and

1:29:381:29:41

involuntary. This issue of

citizenship has been an issue since

1:29:411:29:49

Burma was created but it is a

fundamental and in fact in my view

1:29:491:29:54

the most fundamental part of the

Kobe and an report. Without getting

1:29:541:29:58

the citizenship issue right we will

not have the reform that is required

1:29:581:30:01

and we will be working with all of

our international partners to ensure

1:30:011:30:05

genuine process is made.

We all

appreciate the difficult and

1:30:051:30:12

frustrating job the Minister

actually has. Is he satisfied that

1:30:121:30:15

the Bangladeshi government has

actually got the resources to deal

1:30:151:30:21

with this situation, can he give us

an assurance on that?

To be candid,

1:30:211:30:30

I can't give an assurance along the

lines that have been put forward but

1:30:301:30:34

we will be making this case and

everyone is well aware of the

1:30:341:30:41

conditions of a cyclone monsoon

season, some are severe, others less

1:30:411:30:44

so but nonetheless we are heading

into that season so it is an issue

1:30:441:30:48

at the forefront of the minds of all

concerned.

I thank the Minister for

1:30:481:30:55

his comrades of statements on all

the work that has already been done

1:30:551:30:58

in Bangladesh. I met with

representatives of world vision this

1:30:581:31:01

week and they told me they are

extremely concerned about the number

1:31:011:31:06

of bodies that are buried in shallow

graves throughout the camps. There

1:31:061:31:10

is the issue of the imminent monsoon

rains, and clearly the issue of

1:31:101:31:16

waterborne diseases that could be

spread if these bodies are we

1:31:161:31:21

exposed. Can ask the Minister what

work has been none specifically in

1:31:211:31:25

this area both with Bangladeshi

authorities and the local

1:31:251:31:27

communities?

Again, being handed I'm

not sure exactly what work has been

1:31:271:31:33

done but I am sure world vision are

working with many other groups on

1:31:331:31:37

the ground and those concerns will

have been raised with authorities.

1:31:371:31:41

Insofar as that's not the case, the

Honourable lady has obviously been

1:31:411:31:46

able to raise this at the House and

I will make sure it is raised at the

1:31:461:31:49

highest level.

Can I especially

commend the point the Minister made

1:31:491:31:56

about returns having to be

involuntary, which of course means

1:31:561:31:58

they are frankly very unlikely,

77,000 traumatised people, go back

1:31:581:32:06

to face the guns and the rapist that

sent your way in the first place is

1:32:061:32:10

unrealistic. But there will be

pressure, the Bangladeshi

1:32:101:32:14

authorities will want to see returns

and that's understandable. Can we

1:32:141:32:19

recognise if there are returns,

there have to be security

1:32:191:32:23

guarantees, there have to be

properly underwritten and not just

1:32:231:32:28

for the short-term for decades to

come.

Absolutely right. He makes the

1:32:281:32:35

case very fundamentally, we would

not seek for anything other than

1:32:351:32:38

returns to be voluntarily and

therefore we have to be patient. May

1:32:381:32:44

I also say, it is worth pointing out

that there has been a concerted

1:32:441:32:50

effort of lobbying other nations via

the Foreign & Commonwealth Office

1:32:501:32:54

and since the Foreign Secretary

arrived it is an issue we have

1:32:541:32:59

raised not just with ASEAN states

but places like China, Australia,

1:32:591:33:04

Japan and New Zealand to make clear

that we need to work collectively

1:33:041:33:07

and potentially as a matter of great

urgency both on the humanitarian

1:33:071:33:11

side where the urgency will come,

and the diplomatic side, we have to

1:33:111:33:15

be in it for the long haul. That's

not to be pessimistic, I am hopeful,

1:33:151:33:20

I would love to see solution sooner

rather than later but I think the

1:33:201:33:24

honourable gentleman makes a valid

point for the whole of the House

1:33:241:33:27

that this is going to be an issue

that will be high profile I suspect

1:33:271:33:32

for many years to come before there

are the warranty returns that we all

1:33:321:33:35

wish to see.

I thank the Minister

for his comprehensive statement.

1:33:351:33:42

Some of my constituents in Ipswich

have relatives resident in

1:33:421:33:49

Bangladesh you are providing

involuntary aid and support in the

1:33:491:33:51

camps there. They don't always see,

working on the ground there in the

1:33:511:33:58

camps, where the money is being

spent. Can the Minister told this

1:33:581:34:03

House what communications can be

made available to assure people in

1:34:031:34:06

this country that the British aid

that is being given in the camps is

1:34:061:34:10

actually being used effectively in

order to give them the reassurance

1:34:101:34:14

they need to make further donations

to help the Rohingya people?

I think

1:34:141:34:23

the honourable gentleman and paid

tribute to his constituents. The

1:34:231:34:27

great majority of Bangladeshi

Britons tend to come from the North

1:34:271:34:30

east of the country, equally there

are some nearby. The truth of the

1:34:301:34:36

matter is, a large sum though £59

million is and certainly in the

1:34:361:34:43

context of international

contributions, when you think about

1:34:431:34:47

six, seven, 800,000 Rohingya, that

does not take us very far. The

1:34:471:34:51

message I would ask him to put back

to his constituents is that we are

1:34:511:34:55

doing our absolute level best, we

are working hard on the ground, but

1:34:551:34:59

equally the sheer scale of what is

required may give rise to a sense of

1:34:591:35:07

hopelessness. Please try and implore

the honourable gentleman to implore

1:35:071:35:16

his constituents that that sense of

hopelessness does not mean people

1:35:161:35:19

turn off from this very real

humanitarian calamity.

This

1:35:191:35:26

humanitarian disaster shocks us all

but none more greatly affected than

1:35:261:35:31

the Bangladeshi diaspora, as my

honourable friend has just pointed

1:35:311:35:34

out. I very much welcome the fact

that the Minister is meeting with

1:35:341:35:38

the Foreign Secretary from

Bangladesh soon after this

1:35:381:35:41

statement. As well as urging

Bangladesh to organise and prepare

1:35:411:35:48

as well as possible for the

potential cyclone monsoon season,

1:35:481:35:51

will also be offering whatever

additional support the UK can give

1:35:511:35:57

to help with those preparations,

also in terms of our leadership role

1:35:571:36:02

as the UN pen holder on this matter?

I know the Deputy Speaker has been

1:36:021:36:08

asking for brevity in my responses,

I can happily give a very brief

1:36:081:36:13

response. Not in anyway to

disrespectful, but we are very, very

1:36:131:36:19

happy to do that. We will continue

to do so and I hope we can continue

1:36:191:36:25

to make the huge humanitarian

contributions which will require

1:36:251:36:27

more money from not just us but

within the international community

1:36:271:36:30

in the months and years ahead.

The

clerk will now proceed to read the

1:36:301:36:37

orders of the day.

European affairs.

The

1:36:371:36:45

thank you Mr Deputy Speaker.

I am

delighted to open the second day of

1:36:511:36:55

this very important debate. The

outset to delay's debates, I want is

1:36:551:37:02

set out the status of our

negotiations and reiterate this

1:37:021:37:05

government's vision for a future

economic partnership with the

1:37:051:37:09

European Union. I would in

particular focus on the important

1:37:091:37:12

issue of financial services within

any future trade agreement. I remind

1:37:121:37:16

the House we have been clear that

the decision to leave the EU does

1:37:161:37:21

not mean some love divorce or

division. There is indeed no need

1:37:211:37:25

for this given that the economies of

the UK and EU are inextricably

1:37:251:37:30

connected. -- loveless divorce.

Given our shared values and

1:37:301:37:35

challenges, I have no doubt that any

future economic partnership must

1:37:351:37:40

recognise and reflect these facts.

We stand at the threshold of a new

1:37:401:37:45

beginning with our European partners

and a renewal of our commitment to

1:37:451:37:48

ensure the continued stability of

our union. Before I turn to our feet

1:37:481:37:57

on a partnership with Europe, it is

important to set out just how far we

1:37:571:38:01

have come and what awaits us as we

progress our discussions.

1:38:011:38:07

The agreement in December was

significant, the joint report issued

1:38:071:38:11

by the UK and the EU set up progress

on three areas, a fair deal on

1:38:111:38:16

citizens people's rights enabling

families to stay together, a

1:38:161:38:21

financial settlement honouring the

commitments we undertook as members

1:38:211:38:24

of the EU, as we said we would, and

an agreement in relation to Northern

1:38:241:38:29

Ireland. We are confident that this

collaborative spirit leading to the

1:38:291:38:36

December agreement will endure as we

take forward our approach into the

1:38:361:38:40

next phase including the European

Council next week. I will certainly

1:38:401:38:44

give way to the honourable

gentleman.

I am grateful. On this

1:38:441:38:51

concept of a collaborative open

spirit trying to find solutions,

1:38:511:38:56

frictionless trade, he will have

seen Sky News report today that the

1:38:561:39:01

Government is insisting on

nondisclosure agreements with a

1:39:011:39:05

variety of industry groups,

transport bodies, hauliers and

1:39:051:39:09

others, in trying to find its way

through, why is the Government

1:39:091:39:14

insisting on gagging business

organisations in that way?

In

1:39:141:39:20

response, to the point the

honourable member has raised, it is

1:39:201:39:24

standard practice for the Government

to use nondisclosure agreements and

1:39:241:39:28

delivering a seamless post Brexit

borderers at top priority and

1:39:281:39:32

nondisclosure agreements are crucial

to the open exchange of information

1:39:321:39:39

and opinions on options and

scenarios ensuring all planning on

1:39:391:39:43

negotiations and decisions are based

on what is achievable and most

1:39:431:39:46

appropriate for the UK to ensure a

safe and secure border. With respect

1:39:461:39:53

of our future trading relationship,

draft EU negotiating guidelines have

1:39:531:39:56

been circulated to the EU for

comment. We expect final guidelines

1:39:561:40:01

to be formally adopted next week at

the March European Council. We trust

1:40:011:40:06

these will provide the flexibility

to allow the EU to think creatively

1:40:061:40:10

about our future relationship and

looking ahead we are confident we

1:40:101:40:14

will conclude a deal on the entire

withdrawal agreement by the European

1:40:141:40:19

Council in October. This confidence

is not just grounded in mutual

1:40:191:40:23

interest of striking a deal, but

because we entered the

1:40:231:40:36

negotiations from a point of

striking similarities, our rules,

1:40:381:40:40

regulations, a commitment to free

trade and high standards, they are

1:40:401:40:42

the same. As we build this new

relationship, we are doing so from a

1:40:421:40:45

common starting point. The next

milestone will be an agreement of an

1:40:451:40:47

implementation period. We saw the

implementation period prioritised in

1:40:471:40:50

the Mansion House speech and the

foreign speech, alongside a

1:40:501:40:55

frictionless border arrangement, the

implementation period is the

1:40:551:41:01

essential first step to ensuring we

can all experience an orderly exit

1:41:011:41:06

from the EU, plan accordingly and

enjoys certainty in the transition.

1:41:061:41:10

I give way.

I wonder how can you

possibly agree an implementation

1:41:101:41:16

period when at the moment you doing

-- you do not have anything to

1:41:161:41:24

implement?

While being ingenious in

his use of language, he Will

1:41:241:41:28

Greewood me I am sure that the

purpose of the fermentation period

1:41:281:41:33

is to make sure we have a period of

certainty for business -- he will, I

1:41:331:41:38

am sure, agree with me that the

purpose of the implementation period

1:41:381:41:46

is. I will certainly give way to my

right honourable friend.

I do not

1:41:461:41:57

want to alarm you but I am

completely in agreement with the

1:41:571:42:01

right honourable member, this may be

a first in this sort of debate, I

1:42:011:42:09

know he too is in a state of high

shock, but in all seriousness, this

1:42:091:42:15

is very important. Implementation

period, the clue is in the title,

1:42:151:42:20

and many of us feared that in fact

what we will have achieved by

1:42:201:42:23

October is nothing more than a

woollies set of terms of agreement

1:42:231:42:29

and there will be very little to

implement, so how does the Minister

1:42:291:42:34

see things in reality panning out?

I

think whether one refers to it as

1:42:341:42:41

transition, implementation period,

whatever period one seeks to turn it

1:42:411:42:45

as, the important thing is to

understand what it is about and that

1:42:451:42:49

is extremely clear and we have

always been very clear, a period in

1:42:491:42:52

which we will remain closely

involved in the way in which we are

1:42:521:43:00

at the moment, very similar, so that

when we come through the period am

1:43:001:43:05

moving to the post-transition or

implementation period, we have

1:43:051:43:10

undergone one set of changes and we

have certainty in the interim for

1:43:101:43:13

British businesses which is exactly

what they have been telling us they

1:43:131:43:17

would like to see and I will

certainly give way.

I would repeat

1:43:171:43:24

these words, I propose we aim for a

trade agreement covering all sectors

1:43:241:43:29

with zero tariffs on all goods, like

other free trade agreements, it

1:43:291:43:34

should address services, because

these are not my words, the words of

1:43:341:43:36

President Tusk, which seems to have

accepted the principle there should

1:43:361:43:44

be a free trade agreement between

the EU and the UK.

He makes a very

1:43:441:43:47

important meant and I will come on

to it later in my speech, there is

1:43:471:43:53

every reason why we should move to

exactly that, a comprehensive free

1:43:531:43:57

trade agreement, covering not just

goods but also services. I give way.

1:43:571:44:04

I would like to thank the member for

giving way. Given that nearly half

1:44:041:44:09

of our with the EU and 40% of that

is services, would the Minister

1:44:091:44:16

agree that the level of services

coverage in, for example, Ceta is

1:44:161:44:25

not deep enough and broad enough to

recognise the mutual trade between

1:44:251:44:29

the UK and the EU in services

adequately?

It is an important point

1:44:291:44:33

and we will be seeking a unique deal

for our country recognising the

1:44:331:44:39

prime importance of financial

services, but also the prime

1:44:391:44:43

importance of financial services to

the EU and the provision of

1:44:431:44:47

competitive finance to the EU's

business and consumers and the

1:44:471:44:51

honourable lady mentions Ceta and

the point there that is relevant is

1:44:511:44:57

the fact discussions, even led by

Michel Barnier, in the context of

1:44:571:45:02

those negotiations, did recognise

the importance of attempting to

1:45:021:45:06

include areas like financial

services within those agreements and

1:45:061:45:09

that is exactly what we will be

seeking in the negotiations that

1:45:091:45:13

will now follow. We have the

reassurance that the UK and the EU

1:45:131:45:17

both issued published text

reflecting significant common

1:45:171:45:25

ground. The tax will codify an

implementation period preserving the

1:45:251:45:30

current status quo for business and

consumers, time-limited, also

1:45:301:45:35

providing sufficient window for the

EU and the UK to put new processes

1:45:351:45:39

and systems in place, ensuring

continuity in the application of

1:45:391:45:44

international agreements. As a third

country, the UK will have the

1:45:441:45:48

ability to use this period to

negotiate and sign new trade deals,

1:45:481:45:51

whilst reflecting the fact we cannot

bring these agreements into legal

1:45:511:45:55

effect until after the end of the

period. We will introduce a new

1:45:551:45:59

registration scheme... I will in a

second. We will introduce a new

1:45:591:46:06

registration scheme for EU citizens

arriving post Brexit but in the

1:46:061:46:09

implementation period when EU

citizens should be able to continue

1:46:091:46:13

visit, live and work in the UK, as

they do now. I give way.

The

1:46:131:46:20

potential opportunities to negotiate

new trade deals after we leave the

1:46:201:46:23

EU, one of his colleagues was very

keen to big up the prospects of

1:46:231:46:28

riches to be had from that in the

future, can he name any country in

1:46:281:46:32

the world that so far has indicated

they would be more likely to give a

1:46:321:46:37

beneficial trade deal to the UK on

our own than they would be to

1:46:371:46:40

negotiate a deal with the world's

biggest market?

There have been a

1:46:401:46:49

very large number of trade missions

led by the Department for

1:46:491:46:53

International Trade under Secretary

of State for International

1:46:531:46:55

Development and we have had

extremely encouraging discussions

1:46:551:46:58

with a large number of very

important potential trading partners

1:46:581:47:03

with whom we may be seeking free

trade agreements. Of course, as I

1:47:031:47:10

have said, we will be able to

negotiate those within the

1:47:101:47:14

implementation period, albeit they

will not come into effect until we

1:47:141:47:16

are beyond that point. I will

certainly give way.

Thank you. Is

1:47:161:47:26

the Minister aware of the recent

announcement in today's Times that

1:47:261:47:30

says Brussels has agreed that

Britain can sign free trade deals

1:47:301:47:35

without the approval of the EU?

Update the House on the status of

1:47:351:47:41

this and what does it mean for

free-trade policy?

I thank her for

1:47:411:47:47

the intervention and I believe she

is right, I read that article this

1:47:471:47:51

morning, and that would be very good

and very sensible news, if that is

1:47:511:47:55

the case, because it would be

entirely logical that we should be

1:47:551:48:00

in a position to negotiate

free-trade agreements in any

1:48:001:48:04

implementation period, albeit, as I

say, we respect the fact we would

1:48:041:48:07

not actually switch on the

arrangements until we were beyond

1:48:071:48:13

that particular point. As we have...

I give way.

We have trade dealings

1:48:131:48:23

with over 50 countries across the

world, worth around 140 odd billion

1:48:231:48:29

pounds per annum in the UK trade

exports, is it going to be the

1:48:291:48:35

priority in the implementation

period to renegotiate deals with all

1:48:351:48:38

of these countries? Have we already

got trade deals? We know they want

1:48:381:48:45

to renegotiate the terms, greater

access to UK markets as a result,

1:48:451:48:48

how many of those deals does he

think we will be able to renegotiate

1:48:481:48:54

and sign before we actually leave

the EU?

I can reassure the

1:48:541:48:58

honourable gentleman it is an

absolute priority for the Government

1:48:581:49:01

to insure the consistency and

continuity of existing arrangements,

1:49:011:49:04

as they pertain between the EU and

other countries, and I see no reason

1:49:041:49:10

why we should not benefit from those

arrangements, just as those

1:49:101:49:13

countries will indeed benefit from

those arrangements with us, as we go

1:49:131:49:18

forward. Mr Deputy Speaker, we have

proposed practical solutions to

1:49:181:49:23

deliver a smooth departure, one such

is the introduction of a joint

1:49:231:49:28

committee to resolve issues arising

in the implementation period. The

1:49:281:49:32

approach is a common feature of

international trade agreements. The

1:49:321:49:36

joint committee would allow the UK

to raise concerns regarding new

1:49:361:49:39

Lords which might be harmful to the

national interests. We will also

1:49:391:49:44

continue to discuss our involvement

in relevant bodies as a third

1:49:441:49:48

country during this period to ensure

EU rules and regulations continue to

1:49:481:49:52

operate coherently. Mr Deputy

Speaker, it is in the interests of

1:49:521:49:57

both the UK and the EU to agree the

precise terms of the implementation

1:49:571:50:01

period as quickly as possible and we

are close to delivering this. We

1:50:011:50:05

expected to be formalised next week

at the European Council meeting. The

1:50:051:50:09

fermentation period is key to

forging the best possible future

1:50:091:50:13

relationship, giving businesses and

government the time and certainty to

1:50:131:50:16

plan for Brexit and preparing the UK

for its status as an independent

1:50:161:50:20

trading nation. A bridge from where

we are now to where we want to be in

1:50:201:50:24

the future. On day one and beyond.

Looking further forward, it is

1:50:241:50:30

crucial hour talks progress, that we

agree the terms of the future

1:50:301:50:33

relationships with the EU and we're

moving at pace to set the parameters

1:50:331:50:38

of an economic partnership. As a

Treasury Minister, I'm particularly

1:50:381:50:42

focused on how the economy will

interact and grow together and as

1:50:421:50:46

the Prime Minister said in her

speech, the UK is seeking the

1:50:461:50:50

broadest and deepest possible

agreement covering more sectors and

1:50:501:50:54

cooperates more fully than any other

free-trade agreement. The key

1:50:541:50:58

component of any future agreement

should be the inclusion of services,

1:50:581:51:01

particularly financial services. As

my right honourable friend, the

1:51:011:51:07

Chancellor, made clear last week in

his speech in Canary Wharf,

1:51:071:51:10

financial services is a sector which

calls for close cross-border

1:51:101:51:14

collaboration. I give way.

Can I

take him back to the implementation

1:51:141:51:21

period and renegotiating trade

deals? Is the priority going to be

1:51:211:51:25

renegotiating trade deals we ready

have via the customs union or

1:51:251:51:31

negotiating new trade deals with

countries like the US and China?

The

1:51:311:51:37

honourable member will understand,

both are extremely high priority and

1:51:371:51:40

we will be pursuing both of those

avenues vigorously. The Chancellor

1:51:401:51:46

also reiterated that it is simply

not credible to suggest a future

1:51:461:51:50

deal could not include financial

services. It is in the interests of

1:51:501:51:54

both parties to ensure that EU can

continue to access and enjoy the

1:51:541:51:59

significant benefits afforded by our

financial services hub because it is

1:51:591:52:03

a regionally and globally

significant asset serving our

1:52:031:52:07

continent and beyond and near

impossible to replicate. The UK can

1:52:071:52:12

claim excellent in many areas, but

in financial services, we are truly

1:52:121:52:17

the global leader. We manage 1.5

euros trillion of assets on behalf

1:52:171:52:21

of the EU clients, 60% of all the EU

capital markets activities conducted

1:52:211:52:27

in the UK. Around two thirds of debt

and equity capital raised by EU

1:52:271:52:32

corporate is facilitated by banks in

the UK. It is the huge economies of

1:52:321:52:37

scale that have led to London's

dominant position in EU financial

1:52:371:52:42

services and as the Chancellor made

clear last week, we should be under

1:52:421:52:46

no illusions about the significant

costs if this highly efficient

1:52:461:52:50

shared market is fragmented. Costs

that will ultimately fall to

1:52:501:52:54

consumers and companies across

Europe. I give way.

1:52:541:53:04

You make an important point, and as

the Chancellor set out, those costs

1:53:041:53:09

are of many billions of pounds. One

example would be the proposal of

1:53:091:53:14

relocation of clearing houses,

effectively costing 25 billion a

1:53:141:53:19

year. Would he also agree that as

well as the direct situation of

1:53:191:53:25

financial services, it is critical

that the legal instruments that

1:53:251:53:29

underpin those financial services

also have continuity and therefore

1:53:291:53:32

must be linked inextricably to

continuity of access in legal

1:53:321:53:36

services as well.

He raises an

important point about the

1:53:361:53:44

significance of financial services,

not just to ourselves but also to

1:53:441:53:47

our European partners and asked to

the specific point he raises about

1:53:471:53:52

the continuity and regulatory and so

on, I know the detail of that is

1:53:521:53:57

something we are considering at the

moment and will certainly be looking

1:53:571:54:01

at the prospect of returning to that

report stage of the relevant Bill.

1:54:011:54:07

The UK stands ready to engage on a

future trade agreements, one that

1:54:071:54:13

includes financial services. Our

overarching vision is for an

1:54:131:54:16

economic partnership including a

trade agreement that delivers the

1:54:161:54:20

maximum benefits possible in all

sectors. It will seek to strengthen

1:54:201:54:26

the prosperity of Europe as a whole,

not to weaken it. Despite this there

1:54:261:54:31

remain some voices who question the

possibility of reaching this

1:54:311:54:34

agreement or who insist a trade deal

cannot include financial services.

1:54:341:54:39

The Chancellor adjust these sceptics

in his speech last week and I repeat

1:54:391:54:42

his words again today. Every trade

deal the EU has ever done has been

1:54:421:54:48

unique. The existing models do not

represent the best way forward, nor

1:54:481:54:53

do they provide a useful precedent

for any future agreement. A seater

1:54:531:55:02

style deal would present to low

level of market access. We come from

1:55:021:55:08

a unique position in the UK that on

day one we will have the same rules

1:55:081:55:12

and regulations not to mention

deeply interconnected economies.

1:55:121:55:15

Unlike other countries negotiating

free trade agreements, this is not

1:55:151:55:20

about aligning two totally different

systems. Any new trading agreement

1:55:201:55:23

should reflect the starting point of

the an historic convergence. Over

1:55:231:55:28

time there will be points of

inevitable die burdens and so we

1:55:281:55:33

recognise any future agreement

should set out a clear approach to

1:55:331:55:35

this aspect. Our country seeks the

deepest and broadest agreement

1:55:351:55:43

possible, a bold economic

partnership of greater scope than

1:55:431:55:46

any in history. A vision whose

ambition reflects the scale of our

1:55:461:55:51

mutual interests, our shared history

and all that we can achieve together

1:55:511:55:54

as good friends and trusted

neighbours. Leaving the European

1:55:541:56:01

Union represents the opportunity to

chart a prosperous future, and along

1:56:011:56:06

with my colleagues in government I

have the greatest faith in our

1:56:061:56:08

country and our ability to work with

others to achieve a deal that

1:56:081:56:12

provides and in Jaws for all of us.

As we mark the halfway point of this

1:56:121:56:24

general debate, it is worth

reflecting that we have had a number

1:56:241:56:27

of

thoughtful contributions from

both sides of the House, and while I

1:56:271:56:32

welcome any opportunity for

Parliament to debate, discuss and

1:56:321:56:38

hopefully shape Brexit, no one here

is under any illusion that there is

1:56:381:56:44

nothing we are doing more than

filling time for the government's

1:56:441:56:49

legislative paralysis. It has been

nearly -- it is nearly one year till

1:56:491:56:58

we leave the EU, there is a mammoth

legislative task yet the government

1:56:581:57:01

is holding back the trade Bill,

afraid of defeat and understandably

1:57:011:57:04

so. They have yet to present bills

for migration fisheries or

1:57:041:57:11

agriculture, perhaps worried about

some of the hard truth is that too.

1:57:111:57:19

The Prime Minister was right when

she said we need to face hard

1:57:191:57:21

truths. I don't just agree with the

Prime Minister, I agree with her

1:57:211:57:30

former deputy as well. If analysis

is being produced, then publish it,

1:57:301:57:41

he said. Frankly there will be a big

political debate, let's have the

1:57:411:57:45

argument in public. That's what

democracies do. The country is

1:57:451:57:55

facing critical decisions that will

define how we left and our place in

1:57:551:58:00

the world. Honesty and openness and

hard truth are the very least people

1:58:001:58:09

deserve, and that's why we pressed

on the side for the publication of

1:58:091:58:14

impact assessments and for the

Treasury analyses of the future of

1:58:141:58:19

the economy under different

scenarios available. There is now

1:58:191:58:27

published analyses do make for

sobering reading. Ministers have

1:58:271:58:30

said on a number of occasions, and

repeated yesterday, that the three

1:58:301:58:38

options the Treasury models do not

reflect their desired outcome. They

1:58:381:58:44

have also said, and the

International Trade Minister was

1:58:441:58:51

clear yesterday as well, when he

told the House that the government

1:58:511:58:59

was seeking an ambitious Free Trade

Agreement with the EU. That is

1:58:591:59:04

exactly what the central model in

the Treasury analysis was. It was

1:59:041:59:10

described as the best possible

free-trade agreement, so it has been

1:59:101:59:14

modelled, and what did that model

tell us? Over 15 years, that Free

1:59:141:59:19

Trade Agreement with the EU would

result in a 5% hit to the economy.

1:59:191:59:25

5% fewer jobs, 5% less money for

public services. If I can paraphrase

1:59:251:59:30

the honourable member for

Brookstone, who I think said

1:59:301:59:35

recently that this must be the first

government in history that is

1:59:351:59:40

setting as its ambition reducing the

size of the UK economy. The Prime

1:59:401:59:51

Minister was honest about her plans

would result in downgraded access to

1:59:511:59:56

EU markets. What she did not make

clear and what the Cabinet has

1:59:562:00:01

resisted making public is just how

damaging their version of Brexit

2:00:012:00:04

would be for the economy. Initially,

and it seems some time ago, we heard

2:00:042:00:15

ministers talk enthusiastically

about their plans for an ambitious

2:00:152:00:18

Free Trade Agreement with the US.

Which would compensate for the

2:00:182:00:23

damage with our trade to the EU. But

the government's on analysis says

2:00:232:00:28

that that deal, even if they

achieved it, would boost GBP by just

2:00:282:00:38

0.2%. That, in return for

dismantling our food, health and

2:00:382:00:43

safety standards among other demands

of the US. Let's be clear on that

2:00:432:00:46

one. We could have nothing but a

hard border in Ireland if we

2:00:462:00:54

diverged from EU agricultural

standards. A US deal would require

2:00:542:01:00

that. The ongoing negotiations on

opening skies, if that's anything to

2:01:002:01:09

go by, the special relationship will

not count in the cold, hard light of

2:01:092:01:12

the negotiations. As the hard truths

of the difficulties over a US trade

2:01:122:01:20

deal Dawn on even some of the more

extreme Brexiteers, they suddenly

2:01:202:01:24

decide the US is not that important

after all. We have the spectacle

2:01:242:01:30

recently on the 4th of March of the

Honourable member for East Shoreham

2:01:302:01:34

Walton speaking on radio five as a

government minister, now dismissing

2:01:342:01:40

the importance of a US trade deal,

saying, and I quote, the real

2:01:402:01:45

opportunities of the future will be

with emerging markets. US trade

2:01:452:01:52

deals, Northern Ireland peace

agreement, Treasury economic

2:01:522:01:56

analyses, all casually brushed aside

by those who long for the deepest

2:01:562:02:00

rupture with the EU. But Labour will

not do that.

The song and dance, the

2:02:002:02:16

apparent concession by the UK that

the EU would be able to negotiate

2:02:162:02:22

trade deals during the transitional

phase, does he honestly believe that

2:02:222:02:25

the British Government and the

British civil service will be able

2:02:252:02:28

to renegotiate 70 odd deals we have

already got through the customs

2:02:282:02:34

union, new trade deals with the US

and emerging markets or whoever they

2:02:342:02:38

may be as well as the gigantic task

of renegotiating the trade

2:02:382:02:42

arrangement with the EU?

What

2:02:422:02:47

I thank the Honourable member for

that intervention. He is right to

2:02:512:02:54

joke about the difficulties that

would be faced. There was a naivete

2:02:542:02:58

on the side of the government in

assuming these deals can just be

2:02:582:03:01

rolled forward. It is one of the

arguments that is behind our

2:03:012:03:06

approach. And our policies on the

customs union, because we want to

2:03:062:03:12

face the hard truth is that the

Prime Minister talked about at the

2:03:122:03:16

Mansion House, and that's why we

believe, with the CBI, with the

2:03:162:03:23

engineering employers Federation,

that a new customs union with the EU

2:03:232:03:27

is best for manufacturing, and for

our economy and it is the only way

2:03:272:03:32

of resolving the Northern Ireland

border.

It's clear to anyone who

2:03:322:03:41

reads the Labour manifesto, they set

out their bold vision for an

2:03:412:03:44

independent UK trade policy, I

agreed with some but not all, that

2:03:442:03:48

would have been completely

incompatible with staying in the

2:03:482:03:50

customs union and is completely

misleading to suggest it is

2:03:502:03:53

compatible.

2:03:532:03:55

I think we could draw some

interesting conclusions from the

2:03:592:04:03

Conservative manifesto at the last

election. I think we all need to

2:04:032:04:09

face facts and perhaps the

government needs to change views in

2:04:092:04:14

the cold light of those facts. I do

know, I always find it interesting

2:04:142:04:21

taking interventions from the

Honourable member, I do not know

2:04:212:04:24

whether he is still advising...

That's extraordinary.

I think the

2:04:242:04:35

spokesman for the opposition is

still dealing with the previous

2:04:352:04:38

intervention and he may in due

course come to another intervention.

2:04:382:04:44

I always find it interesting when

the Honourable member talks about

2:04:442:04:48

the interests of the British

economy, I do not know whether he is

2:04:482:04:52

still advising readers through the

Financial Times to get money out of

2:04:522:04:55

the country.

As he well knows I

never did that, I made a clear

2:04:552:05:00

statement to the House and he should

apologise.

His comment in the column

2:05:002:05:08

in the Financial Times on the 3rd of

November 2017, under the heading,

2:05:082:05:13

time to look further afield as the

UK economy hit the brakes, and I

2:05:132:05:19

quote, said quote, I sold out of the

general share exchange trader funds

2:05:192:05:23

in the UK after their performance

for the year from early July 2016

2:05:232:05:29

when I saw the last budget. And

heard the Bank of England's credit

2:05:292:05:33

warnings. The money could be better

but to work in places where it could

2:05:332:05:39

expand a bit to permit faster

growth. I am completely accurate in

2:05:392:05:42

my quote.

The portfolio still had

massively more in the UK than the

2:05:422:05:49

general global representation and it

was nothing to do with Brexit.

I was

2:05:492:05:56

simply questioning the Honourable

member's commitment to the economy

2:05:562:05:58

and he will notice...

Order, order.

The Honourable gentleman and all

2:05:582:06:09

Honourable members can question

other members political attitudes

2:06:092:06:14

and what they say in this House,

what we cannot have is one member

2:06:142:06:18

suggesting that another member has

said something in writing or

2:06:182:06:22

otherwise which he says he did not

say. I think... No, the Honourable

2:06:222:06:29

gentleman will not question what I

am saying. Mr Blomfield might like

2:06:292:06:35

to consider just closing this down

with a withdrawal of his remark.

I

2:06:352:06:41

thank you for that clarification,

Madam Deputy Speaker. I apologise

2:06:412:06:48

for any offence, but I was simply

quoting from the Financial Times the

2:06:482:06:54

column of the Honourable member

which said, quote, time to look

2:06:542:06:58

further afield as the UK economy

hits the brakes, unquote. I give

2:06:582:07:02

way.

Now we turn to the subject we

are meant to be debating today. The

2:07:022:07:12

Honourable gentleman talks about

manifestos, of course his party

2:07:122:07:15

failed to get elected on his

manifesto but is a familiar with the

2:07:152:07:19

Conservative Party manifesto which

some say we have drifted away from,

2:07:192:07:22

but nevertheless it is clear that

the policy was that we would seek a

2:07:222:07:30

customs arrangement.

2:07:302:07:40

It was a manifesto in the narrative

that surrounded it which sought an

2:07:402:07:47

overwhelming number leaver mandate

for our hard Brexit and from which

2:07:472:07:51

the British people fail to give to

the Conservative Party -- an

2:07:512:07:55

overwhelming mandate for a hard

Brexit. We believe a conference of

2:07:552:08:01

customs union with the EU

replicating the current arrangements

2:08:012:08:05

also does not weaken our opportunity

to develop trade with the rest of

2:08:052:08:08

the world -- we believe a

comprehensive customs union. As

2:08:082:08:13

Germany has shown, we do not need

trade deals to develop trade. For

2:08:132:08:18

example, with China. As the

international trade secretary

2:08:182:08:22

acknowledge when he was there with

the Prime Minister in February,

2:08:222:08:25

membership of a customs union will

not hold back bilateral trade. Where

2:08:252:08:30

deals can be done, we think

membership of a customs union gives

2:08:302:08:34

us a stronger hand in trade

negotiations as part of a market of

2:08:342:08:39

650 million people, rather than just

65 million, and maintaining strong

2:08:392:08:44

EU... Madam Deputy Speaker, members

of this place and the Government

2:08:442:08:51

must be honest about the fact that

any trade agreement... I will.

2:08:512:08:55

Listening very carefully to members

giving way and I understand he is

2:08:552:09:01

asking to have a customs union with

the EU, but listening to the Leader

2:09:012:09:05

of the Opposition's speech less than

three weeks ago, he also asked for

2:09:052:09:09

an exemption on competition law,

does the right honourable member

2:09:092:09:13

agree that there is not a single

country that has a customs union

2:09:132:09:18

with the EU which also has an

exemption on competition law and

2:09:182:09:24

even Turkey has to apply to all EU

treaties in this regard?

Well, I

2:09:242:09:31

recognise the honourable lady has

enormous experience as a former

2:09:312:09:33

member of the EU but she did ask

that question yesterday and my

2:09:332:09:39

honourable friend replied, I think

she is confusing a customs union

2:09:392:09:43

with a single market requirement,

but let me answer the point anyway.

2:09:432:09:53

The Leader of the Opposition did

raise a concern that we would want

2:09:532:09:59

assurances in relation to

competition policy, but we are

2:09:592:10:06

absolutely confident those

assurances would be very easy to get

2:10:062:10:09

and they would not be problematic.

The Leader of the Opposition himself

2:10:092:10:14

said, as I think was pointed out

yesterday, on the Robert Peston show

2:10:142:10:19

in January, we are absolutely

confident there is nothing that was

2:10:192:10:22

in our manifesto that would be

thwarted by state aid rules.

I would

2:10:222:10:30

like to ask him to withdraw his

accusation that I am somehow

2:10:302:10:34

confused. It is very clear in the

reading of Turkey's customs union

2:10:342:10:41

arrangements that it has to comply

with all EU treaty rules on state

2:10:412:10:47

aid and EU law on competition in its

custom union.

I thank her for that

2:10:472:10:57

clarification but we are not seeking

a customs union comparable with

2:10:572:11:00

Turkey. We are seeking a

comprehensive customs union

2:11:002:11:05

replicating the current arrangements

we enjoy with the EU. I think we

2:11:052:11:13

also, if we can move on to another

area, need to be honest about the

2:11:132:11:19

central issue on which many of those

who campaign to leave focused their

2:11:192:11:26

campaign and which influences the

votes of many, on immigration.

2:11:262:11:32

Taking back control of our borders

was a powerful promise, creating

2:11:322:11:38

expectations that the Government

really has no plans or intention to

2:11:382:11:42

deliver. The Government have had

control of non-European Union

2:11:422:11:53

immigration for eight years, and in

every one of those years, it was

2:11:532:11:56

greater than EA migration. The

Government knows things will not be

2:11:562:12:03

changing significantly. Two weeks

ago, an ardent Brexiteer, the

2:12:032:12:10

Environment Secretary, told the

National Farmers Union, I quote,

2:12:102:12:14

agriculture needs access to foreign

workers, and he promised to maintain

2:12:142:12:19

that access both for seasonal and

permanent workers. He was echoing

2:12:192:12:24

the Brexit Secretary who said in

Estonia last year it will take years

2:12:242:12:30

and years for British citizens to

fill employment gaps and that in the

2:12:302:12:34

meantime they would be welcome to

come and work in the UK. At the

2:12:342:12:39

Mansion House, the Prime Minister

talked about... I will in the

2:12:392:12:43

moment. A future Labour mobility

scheme with the EU. The difficulties

2:12:432:12:47

of squaring the expectations

unleashed by the league campaign

2:12:472:12:53

with the interests of the economy is

no doubt the reason the government

2:12:532:12:58

has delayed the new immigration

white paper yet again and does not

2:12:582:13:02

look set to have a new system in

place by the time we depart in

2:13:022:13:05

March.

I am grateful. I was a bit

concerned to his referring to the

2:13:052:13:12

numbers of non-EAA migrants, almost

like he was sympathetic to the

2:13:122:13:26

government's immigration targets,

come I ask him to comment on the

2:13:262:13:28

speech his leader made last weekend,

referring to it EU allowing

2:13:282:13:33

something that allows EU workers to

come in driving down wages? Does he

2:13:332:13:44

agree he was wrong to say that and

he should apologise?

We have been

2:13:442:13:49

clear as the Government has about

the benefits of migration and there

2:13:492:13:53

is no evidence, and that was not

what the Leader of the Opposition

2:13:532:14:00

said in Scotland, no evidence that

migration drives down wages. There

2:14:002:14:04

is an issue which we would tackle

and has been in our manifesto for

2:14:042:14:09

the last couple of elections on the

exploitation of European workers and

2:14:092:14:15

those from other countries in the UK

and we need tougher labour market

2:14:152:14:21

rules and tougher labour market

enforcement to tackle those issues.

2:14:212:14:29

Can I move on to say the Prime

Minister was right too to say in

2:14:292:14:34

Munich and at the Mansion House that

she was ready to cross her red lines

2:14:342:14:41

on the European Court of Justice? In

relation to security because of the

2:14:412:14:47

importance of security to this

country. She is right, clearly,

2:14:472:14:51

security is vital. Also influenced

by the fact that as her former Home

2:14:512:14:57

Secretary she had an intimate

understanding of the issue and

2:14:572:15:00

recognise the consequences of

failing to reach an accommodation.

2:15:002:15:06

But if security is vital to this

country, as it is, isn't the economy

2:15:062:15:11

too? In conclusion, Madam Deputy

Speaker, the Foreign Minister was

2:15:112:15:19

right to talk about hard truths,

because the British people, whether

2:15:192:15:25

they voted to leave or remain, they

will not thank politicians who

2:15:252:15:30

deliver a damaging Brexit on the

basis of a false prospectus. And the

2:15:302:15:37

former Prime Minister, John Major,

was right too when he said, it is

2:15:372:15:43

not only right to speak truth to

power, but to speak truth to people.

2:15:432:15:49

Let's face up to the hard facts. No

Brexit dividend for public services,

2:15:492:15:55

as the Chancellor confirmed again on

Tuesday, no significant change to

2:15:552:16:01

migration, no real red lines on the

EU court of justice. And huge damage

2:16:012:16:07

to our economy by their own

analysis. But it does not have to be

2:16:072:16:14

like this. If the Prime Minister had

said, this country voted to leave

2:16:142:16:20

the EU, but it was a close vote, it

was a mandate to go but not a

2:16:202:16:26

mandate for a deep rupture, if she

had said, we will leave, but stay

2:16:262:16:31

close, in a customs union, as close

as possible to the single market, a

2:16:312:16:36

member of the agencies and

partnerships we have got together

2:16:362:16:39

over 44 years, she would have had

the overwhelming support of this

2:16:392:16:44

House, but instead, she has let a

tiny band of extreme Brexiteers in

2:16:442:16:49

the European Research Group set the

agenda. It is not too late, she

2:16:492:17:01

could reach out to the majority of

the House and the country to adopt a

2:17:012:17:04

sensible approach, to adopt Labour's

approach, and I hope she will.

2:17:042:17:06

Plenty of time for debate this

afternoon and I hope that we can

2:17:062:17:09

manage this debate without a formal

time limit because that will allow

2:17:092:17:13

natural debate to occur without

restriction. That will work if

2:17:132:17:19

honourable members speak for

approximately ten minutes each. If

2:17:192:17:24

anybody speaks for much longer than

that, we will have to have a time

2:17:242:17:27

limit. Mr Bernard Jenkin.

I will

proceed as quickly as possible but I

2:17:272:17:34

think the honourable gentleman

rather marred his speech by playing

2:17:342:17:38

the man and not... I think it is

much better if we deal with the

2:17:382:17:44

arguments instead of imputing

motives or sentiments that are at

2:17:442:17:50

that very moment being... I thought

it was rather unfortunate. I would

2:17:502:17:59

also just point out the agenda is

not being set by a small group of

2:17:592:18:04

MPs, it has been set by the British

people, 52% of the electorate. And

2:18:042:18:09

those who are arguing against

leaving the customs union or staying

2:18:092:18:14

in the single market are actually

arguing against the rights of the

2:18:142:18:17

British people to take control of

their own affairs. Let us make no

2:18:172:18:22

bones about this, the Labour Party

has now adopted a position for some

2:18:222:18:28

kind of half Brexit which is not

what the British people voted for,

2:18:282:18:32

as the Prime Minister herself said,

she does not recognise any

2:18:322:18:37

distinction between hard or soft

Brexit, there is leaving the EU or

2:18:372:18:41

somehow staying in and that seems to

be the position the Labour Party has

2:18:412:18:46

now adopted. Let us start with

setting out two contacts, many who

2:18:462:18:52

supported remain seem to believe in

the referendum people who voted

2:18:522:18:56

leave were voting to turn their back

on the world -- two contacts. They

2:18:562:19:01

claimed the decision was driven by

xenophobic undercurrents and they

2:19:012:19:07

see it as protectionist. Vote leave

did not campaign for that. We left

2:19:072:19:14

the vote leave website up and you

can take a look, if you like, and

2:19:142:19:22

Vote Leave did not vote for

isolationism, protectionism, but a

2:19:222:19:28

poll found at the time of the

election that the biggest single

2:19:282:19:34

reason for wanting to vote leave

was, I quote, the principle that

2:19:342:19:37

decisions about the UK should be

taken in the UK. This is the first

2:19:372:19:43

context, the debate was about taking

back control, Democratic

2:19:432:19:48

self-government, and our country's

tried to make its own laws, decide

2:19:482:19:51

taxation and spending and choose how

it engages with other countries. It

2:19:512:19:57

is about leaving a block macro, not

just...

I give way. Could I agree

2:19:572:20:07

very much with my honourable friend?

But also add a point which is, had

2:20:072:20:11

the speeches on Jean-Claude Juncker

and President Macron, moving towards

2:20:112:20:19

a more integrated Europe, sovereign

Europe, as President Macron says,

2:20:192:20:23

had it been put to the British

people before a referendum, we would

2:20:232:20:28

have got a vastly greater vote than

the 52%.

I make the point later on

2:20:282:20:33

and I will now no longer make that

point for the sake of brevity. The

2:20:332:20:37

EU undermines democracy, prosperity

and international cooperation,

2:20:372:20:43

played by high in employment, high

debts, ageing populations much too

2:20:432:20:47

dependent on state went -- state

buffer, a democratic crisis, putting

2:20:472:20:54

up barriers to the combination of

world-class universities, technical

2:20:542:20:59

innovation, venture capital,

fundamental to technological

2:20:592:21:02

innovation on which the future of

our economy depends. Since the

2:21:022:21:07

referendum, there have been landmark

statements to which my honourable

2:21:072:21:10

friend, the chairman of the European

Scrutiny Committee, refers. The

2:21:102:21:14

former president of the European

Parliament wants a full United

2:21:142:21:17

States of Europe by 2025. The

formation of the euro, always a

2:21:172:21:24

political project, transformed the

EU, making full integration and

2:21:242:21:27

imperative to prevent it from

breaking up. In the end, the euro

2:21:272:21:32

will fail anyway because there was

no political consent for the scale

2:21:322:21:37

of the fiscal transfers necessary to

compensate for the huge internal

2:21:372:21:42

trade imbalances. The second context

is economic. Shortly before the

2:21:422:21:47

referendum, the Treasury forecast

leave vote would inflict an economic

2:21:472:21:50

shock in the UK leading to reduced

trade, investment, recession, loss

2:21:502:21:55

of 500,000 jobs. I'm sorry to

disappoint the honourable member,

2:21:552:21:59

this has been proved to be

manifestly wrong. It ignored the

2:21:592:22:03

long-term future of global trade and

economic growth. Between 2016 and

2:22:032:22:08

2017, UK GDP increased by 1.7%,

economic growth continues to surpass

2:22:082:22:14

expectations, tax receipts are

higher than expected, the UK is

2:22:142:22:17

running a current budget surplus for

the first time since the year

2:22:172:22:20

leading up to July, 2000 long before

the crash, two years earlier than

2:22:202:22:25

anticipated just last year. You can

employment has continued to fall

2:22:252:22:29

from 8.5% in late 2011 and then

implement rate was at its lowest

2:22:292:22:38

rate since 1975 recently. --

unemployment rate. The number of

2:22:382:22:44

jobs being moved is significantly

lower than expected. Foreign direct

2:22:442:22:48

investment has continued to grow and

there has been a string of major and

2:22:482:22:53

went investment decisions. 2016

turned out to be another record year

2:22:532:22:58

for inward investment. The new 300

million London headquarters, Nissan

2:22:582:23:05

announced its new models being built

in Sunderland, making Sunderland is

2:23:052:23:09

super plant, GlaxoSmithKline plans

to invest in the life sciences

2:23:092:23:17

sector in the UK, a 200 million

train managing plant will be built

2:23:172:23:25

in the UK, if they win orders for

new rolling stock, Toyota will build

2:23:252:23:30

a new generation of its hatchback in

Derbyshire including the £240

2:23:302:23:34

million upgrade of the plant. It is

not gloating, but it shows inward

2:23:342:23:41

investment is not dependent upon

membership of the EU. What about

2:23:412:23:46

longer term prospects for trade and

economic growth?

2:23:462:23:54

The proportion of exports sent to

the UK has declined, it peaked in

2:23:542:24:00

2006, by 2016 it had fallen to 23%.

This decline in the importance of

2:24:002:24:05

our EU trade has set in despite the

UK being in the EU, in a customs

2:24:052:24:10

union in a single market, conversely

over the same period the non-EU

2:24:102:24:16

share of UK exports has increased.

Trade with China, their share grew

2:24:162:24:23

from 1.6% in 2006, worth a mere 5.4

billion to 3.6%, worth

2:24:232:24:31

16,000,000,020 16. Trade has also

grown significantly with the

2:24:312:24:33

Commonwealth, UK exports have

increased, worth 8.9 percent, the

2:24:332:24:50

Commonwealth is a fast-growing

market reflecting our values and

2:24:502:24:57

language. The EU is still the

largest trading partner for the UK

2:24:572:25:02

as a block, but considering

individual countries, the UK's

2:25:022:25:05

largest trading partner is the US.

It seems to have passed by the

2:25:052:25:11

Honourable member for Sheffield

Central, while we have had a trade

2:25:112:25:14

deficit with the EU every year since

1989 worth 2 billion in 2016 be

2:25:142:25:20

achieved a 39 billion trade surplus

with non-EU countries in 2016.

2:25:202:25:25

Outside the EU, the UK will be able

to develop new trading relationships

2:25:252:25:28

outside the customs union, not under

his party's policy. Some of these

2:25:282:25:35

opportunities, including the

possibility of joining TBB and of

2:25:352:25:40

strong prospects for a comprehensive

Free Trade Agreement with the US

2:25:402:25:43

including financial services, more

than match the potential of our

2:25:432:25:48

existing relationships with the EU.

The 11 TVP countries have a

2:25:482:25:55

population of almost 5 million

people and represent 10 trillion in

2:25:552:25:57

economic output which is 35% of the

global total. The Commonwealth of

2:25:572:26:04

the population of 2.3 billion people

will stop A, Ganso trade deal with

2:26:042:26:11

the world's largest single economy,

with the UK accounting for 7% of

2:26:162:26:21

World Service exports, USA 15%, they

were together accounting for a fifth

2:26:212:26:26

of the global total, a market of

huge significance. Outside the EU,

2:26:262:26:32

the UK will be better placed to

develop trading opportunities with

2:26:322:26:36

countries such as Asia, Africa,

where the most rapid growth is

2:26:362:26:39

expected to occur in future. When

concluding free trade agreements we

2:26:392:26:43

can set our own negotiating

priorities which best match our

2:26:432:26:47

economic interests. The EU has

historically represented the UK's

2:26:472:26:51

interests poorly, not just because

they are incredibly slow but because

2:26:512:26:54

inevitably the EU cannot prioritise

UK trading interests such as access

2:26:542:27:00

for services which is of course of

prime importance to our economy. EU

2:27:002:27:06

negotiators had to take account of

28 states interest, which can be

2:27:062:27:12

very different from our own and

reflect protectionist priorities

2:27:122:27:16

such as the Italian shoe industry or

French agriculture or German

2:27:162:27:19

chemicals.

I very much enjoy

listening to the member's speech and

2:27:192:27:28

hearing him talk about opportunity

for trade outside the EU but bearing

2:27:282:27:31

in mind half of our trade, nearly

half is with the EU and 40% of that

2:27:312:27:36

is services and that's that business

growth has been growing

2:27:362:27:40

year-on-year, wouldn't you also

agree that we should try and do

2:27:402:27:44

both? The EU economy is actually

going at the moment, we can grow our

2:27:442:27:48

trade with the EU and with other

parts of the world if we strike an

2:27:482:27:54

amicable trading relationship with

the EU as we leave.

I could not

2:27:542:27:57

agree more. We are on exactly the

same page and we can both support

2:27:572:28:04

the Prime Minister's negotiating

objectives on that basis. The power

2:28:042:28:09

to negotiate and sign trade deals

will not only speed up trade

2:28:092:28:13

negotiation for the UK but will

enable the government to negotiate

2:28:132:28:16

in the UK national interest. The

Honourable gentleman from the SNP

2:28:162:28:23

bench asked about which countries

the Department for International

2:28:232:28:25

Trade is pursuing, countries around

the world including Australia and

2:28:252:28:30

Brazil have already expressed an

interest. I give way.

I am grateful

2:28:302:28:38

to him for that point, as a matter

of accuracy, could I point out that

2:28:382:28:42

I did not ask what countries we

hoped to do deal with, I asked for

2:28:422:28:47

one country that says they will give

a better deal to us than the EU,

2:28:472:28:53

today there has not been a single

answer to that question. If the

2:28:532:28:56

Honourable gentleman can tell us now

one country that will give us a

2:28:562:29:01

better trade deal now than we had as

part of the EU I am sure his

2:29:012:29:05

colleagues in the department would

be delighted to speak with him.

I

2:29:052:29:10

hear the Honourable gentleman

somewhat playing with words because

2:29:102:29:13

no one will say what kind of deal

they give us until we are actually

2:29:132:29:16

in the negotiations and we are

making progress. I think he is

2:29:162:29:21

asking a question to which he well

knows the answer for his own

2:29:212:29:25

political reasons. In relation to

our trade with the EU, the Prime

2:29:252:29:29

Minister called for trade at the UK

EU border to be as frictionless as

2:29:292:29:34

possible. The EU has agreed, as I

mentioned earlier, that tariffs and

2:29:342:29:39

quotas should be avoided, in the

draft negotiating guidelines

2:29:392:29:42

published earlier this month, and

they also agreed the principle of

2:29:422:29:46

the EU UK trade deal, maybe that is

the answer to the Honourable

2:29:462:29:49

gentleman. There should also be

mutual recognition of projects and

2:29:492:29:53

standards which is now more than

what the UK has with many other

2:29:532:29:57

countries with which it does not

have a Free Trade Agreement, this is

2:29:572:29:59

what is meant by a customs

arrangement, it means goods only

2:29:592:30:04

need approval in one country to meet

the required regulatory standards in

2:30:042:30:07

other countries in normal

circumstances.

2:30:072:30:11

For services, while we recognise

that certain aspects of trading

2:30:262:30:29

services are intrinsically linked to

the single market, we should note

2:30:292:30:33

that services trade has nothing

whatsoever to do with the in or out

2:30:332:30:37

of the customs union because tariffs

are not judged on services. In the

2:30:372:30:41

Prime Minister is right to insist

that tariffs should be introduced

2:30:412:30:46

only when necessary but there is no

reason for the EU to prevent UK

2:30:462:30:50

phones for setting up in the EU as

we will continue to allow them to

2:30:502:30:53

set up here. We should agree an

appropriate label and framework and

2:30:532:30:57

the recognition of qualifications to

provide for the ability of skilled

2:30:572:31:02

labour. The Prime Minister also

called for the UK and EU economies

2:31:022:31:05

to remain closely linked in areas

including energy, transport,

2:31:052:31:09

digital, Law, science and

innovation. This is all achievable

2:31:092:31:13

with goodwill on both sides. The UK

is committed to remaining a good

2:31:132:31:22

neighbour and close friend to the

EU. Trade is of great importance to

2:31:222:31:27

the economy, about 28% of what we

produce sold abroad and this

2:31:272:31:31

activity supports millions of jobs.

We also import much of what we

2:31:312:31:34

consume and trade allows consumers

to access a wide variety of goods at

2:31:342:31:40

better prices but the volume of

trade is only marginally affected by

2:31:402:31:45

agreements between countries.

Neither the EU nor the UK has a

2:31:452:31:48

trade agreement with the US, but the

US is nevertheless our largest

2:31:482:31:51

trading partner. When discussing

trade, remember the trade agreements

2:31:512:31:56

are only one factor on which our

economic future depends. How we

2:31:562:32:03

educate our people, regulate our

economy, the flexibility of our

2:32:032:32:08

labour market and investment in

infrastructure and science and

2:32:082:32:09

technology are far more importance

to our prosperity and trade

2:32:092:32:12

agreements will stop domestic

government policies have a much

2:32:122:32:16

bigger impact on economic

performance than whether the UK is

2:32:162:32:19

inside or outside the customs union

with the EU. As the Honourable

2:32:192:32:25

gentleman for Sheffield Central

seems to imply when he points out

2:32:252:32:28

that Germany exports to the rest of

the world from within the EU but

2:32:282:32:31

does not even have a trade

agreements let alone a customs union

2:32:312:32:35

agreement, so let's get all December

abortion. It is far more significant

2:32:352:32:40

for the UK's departure that from the

EU will give us greater flexibility,

2:32:402:32:47

more responsibility, accountability

and control over how we manage our

2:32:472:32:51

economy.

2:32:512:32:54

The freedom to relax and Egyptians

placed on UK public documents,

2:32:582:33:02

flexibility of policy, fishing and

farming.

I think he just mentioned

2:33:022:33:13

that he did not think there was

value in trade agreements from other

2:33:132:33:19

third countries, but I would like to

clarify that for example our trade

2:33:192:33:24

with South Korea has more than

doubled, increased by 100%, as the

2:33:242:33:29

Foreign Secretary said, since the

signing of a free-trade agreement

2:33:292:33:35

for the EU and South Korea of which

we are a party.

I am not discounting

2:33:352:33:43

the value of free-trade agreements,

what I am asking is that we should

2:33:432:33:48

dispose of some prevalent

misconceptions, that it is only

2:33:482:33:53

free-trade agreements on which our

prosperity depends, it is only being

2:33:532:33:57

a part of the customs union on which

our prosperity depends. It is

2:33:572:34:03

actually relatively at the margin of

our overall prosperity of the

2:34:032:34:06

economy, and it is not necessary to

be a very large country part of a

2:34:062:34:11

large trade bloc to be prosperous,

many small states exports a far

2:34:112:34:16

higher proportion of their GDP

across customs wrung tears, for

2:34:162:34:20

example Switzerland's exports are

worth 66% of its GDP and South Korea

2:34:202:34:26

42%. Far higher than the UK's.

Neither of these countries are in

2:34:262:34:30

any kind of customs union said they

achieved this across traditional

2:34:302:34:37

frontiers and are very successful.

Switzerland is the EU's main trading

2:34:372:34:43

partner and they are not even a

member. Singapore's exports are far

2:34:432:34:47

bigger than their GDP at 172%, and

Hong Kong whose exports are 87%

2:34:472:34:54

because they import and export such

large volumes but neither is part of

2:34:542:34:59

a customs union or any single

market. They just get on with it.

2:34:592:35:03

Control over your own laws offers

far greater opportunities to develop

2:35:032:35:06

your economy and export ban the

removal of custom subjects when

2:35:062:35:11

trading with other countries. The

cost of processes are low and

2:35:112:35:15

declining in comparison with other

costs such as anti-competitive

2:35:152:35:19

regulation and behind the Borders

barriers to trade. Oh, yes, and the

2:35:192:35:22

reduction of tariff barriers like

South Korea had very substantial

2:35:222:35:28

tariff barriers before the

free-trade agreement. That's very

2:35:282:35:32

important, too. We get the

opportunity to focus on those in

2:35:322:35:35

trade negotiations alongside

investment in science and Tech,

2:35:352:35:38

educating people and injuring

flexible labour markets in a

2:35:382:35:41

competitive regime. So much of the

debate about the EU lacks this

2:35:412:35:47

perspective. Even so, our future

opportunities outside the EU are

2:35:472:35:52

important, even the EU Commission

expects 90% of global economic

2:35:522:35:55

growth over the next ten to 15 years

to be generated outside Europe. The

2:35:552:36:00

UK can flourish outside the EU,

perhaps not with a corporate

2:36:002:36:03

government, that might be a bit of a

problem, but certainly within a

2:36:032:36:08

sensible Conservative government.

The only question is whether the all

2:36:082:36:10

work hard to embrace these

opportunities or continue to try to

2:36:102:36:13

hide from them. Outside the EU,

instead of pretending we can

2:36:132:36:18

incinerate ourselves from a rapidly

changing world and the effects of

2:36:182:36:21

technological and societal change

with Bailey model of regulation and

2:36:212:36:25

centralise power, without all that,

we will have the freedom and

2:36:252:36:27

flexibility to respond, adapt, and

survive and prosper.

I am grateful

2:36:272:36:39

for the opportunity to contribute to

this debate, although I do want to

2:36:392:36:45

note with sadness the fact that

having set aside two days to debate

2:36:452:36:50

European affairs, in reality we are

all talking about the same European

2:36:502:36:53

affair. This place has become

consumed with Brexit, to the extent

2:36:532:36:59

that other vitally important matters

on the continent of Europe that

2:36:592:37:06

normally we would find time to

debate at length now hardly even

2:37:062:37:09

mentioned in this place. Where is

the chamber today on the persecution

2:37:092:37:17

of journalists and dissidents in

Turkey? Where is the debate on the

2:37:172:37:22

countdown of neofascist proportions

in Catalonia? Academics are now

2:37:222:37:25

being ordered to hand over anything

they may have written in support of

2:37:252:37:30

constitutional change and the

civilians threatened with arrest for

2:37:302:37:32

the crime of wearing a yellow scarf.

Where is the debate on the

2:37:322:37:38

worryingly progressive steps being

taken in Hungary and Poland, so much

2:37:382:37:42

so that for example an Irish court

this week refused an extradition

2:37:422:37:46

request to Poland because Ireland

can no longer trust the Polish

2:37:462:37:50

judicial system to give people a

fair trial? Where is the debate on

2:37:502:37:54

the instability that may engulf the

government of Slovakia, a country

2:37:542:37:58

previously a frontier land for the

Iron Curtain that has now become

2:37:582:38:04

something of a buffer zone between

Western Europe and the worrying

2:38:042:38:06

developments further east? Had it

not been for the appalling incident

2:38:062:38:11

in Salisbury, it's unlikely we would

have even found time to debate the

2:38:112:38:15

growing and brittle expansionism of

Russia. Further, the illegal actions

2:38:152:38:24

in Ukraine, covert actions in parts

of Georgia, the increasingly

2:38:242:38:27

threatening behaviour towards the

Baltic states, none of these are

2:38:272:38:32

getting anything like the attention

in this place that they are entitled

2:38:322:38:36

to, none are getting the attention

they would have had had it not been

2:38:362:38:39

for Brexit taking up so much of

2:38:392:38:43

everybody's time and increasing

proportions of the budget in every

2:38:432:38:46

department.

2:38:462:38:52

That is only the European affairs

business we're not talking about, as

2:38:522:38:56

many members raised in business

questions earlier on, there are a

2:38:562:39:00

whole host of pressing social issues

in these islands not being debated,

2:39:002:39:05

not being talked about, inadequate

Parliamentary scrutiny, nonexistent

2:39:052:39:11

or inadequate legislation to address

problems because everything has been

2:39:112:39:15

sacrificed on the altar of Brexit.

It might not be so bad if by

2:39:152:39:21

sacrificing everything else to talk

about Brexit there was some signs we

2:39:212:39:24

were getting it right, but all the

signs are that having off getting it

2:39:242:39:31

wrong by calling the wrong

referendum with the wrong time and

2:39:312:39:33

the wrong circumstances and on the

wrong day, things have gone from bad

2:39:332:39:39

to worse since then. The catalogue

of disastrous misjudgements from the

2:39:392:39:44

Prime Minister and her predecessor

would be hilarious if the

2:39:442:39:48

consequences were not so disastrous

for as economically and perhaps more

2:39:482:39:53

importantly socially. The referendum

was promised to heal divisions

2:39:532:39:58

within the Conservative Party, yeah,

that has worked well, hasn't it? The

2:39:582:40:02

date of the referendum was set

because the Prime Minister was

2:40:022:40:06

worried it would be engulfed by

further controversy if there was

2:40:062:40:10

another summer of refugee disasters

in the Mediterranean. It was

2:40:102:40:13

deliberately designed to cut across

local and national election

2:40:132:40:18

campaigns in many parts of the UK.

With indecent haste after the

2:40:182:40:24

referendum, after the Conservative

leadership non-contest, the Prime

2:40:242:40:28

Minister unilaterally without

consultation as far as I can see

2:40:282:40:33

with anybody announced the red lines

of leaving the customs union and the

2:40:332:40:41

single market, she has painted

herself into the corner and she now

2:40:412:40:44

wants to Blaydon Europeans for -- to

blame the Europeans for being

2:40:442:40:50

unwilling to knock down the walls to

get her out.

Lots of interesting

2:40:502:40:54

European issue is not to do with

Brexit, the general debate on EU

2:40:542:40:58

affairs, why doesn't he talk about

them?

I have raised all of them and

2:40:582:41:06

if it was possible for me to speak

quickly enough to debunk even half

2:41:062:41:11

of the nonsense we get from the

opposite benches on Brexit, I might

2:41:112:41:16

be able to come on and speak of

other things, the record will show

2:41:162:41:20

that on these benches we have made a

number of attempts to have them

2:41:202:41:23

raised and we have been pushed back

by Her Majesty's government at every

2:41:232:41:28

opportunity. Having made bad worse

by setting red lines on the customs

2:41:282:41:34

union and the single market, the

Prime Minister decided to waste

2:41:342:41:40

three months of negotiating time in

six months of Parliamentary scrutiny

2:41:402:41:43

time by having an election to

guarantee the three figure

2:41:432:41:47

Conservative majority said that

everything is could be

2:41:472:41:50

steam-rollered through without any

pretext of opposition, that worked

2:41:502:41:55

even better than the referendum to

bring the conserver party together.

2:41:552:42:00

-- the Conservative Party. This

would be funny if the consequences

2:42:002:42:05

for 60 million people on these

islands and for potentially several

2:42:052:42:07

hundred million people in other

parts of Europe were not so grave.

2:42:072:42:13

So grave that the Government still

does everything in its power to

2:42:132:42:17

prevent us and prevent the people we

represent from knowing just how bad

2:42:172:42:22

their own analysis shows that it is

going to become. From the most

2:42:222:42:29

recent Brexit papers, one of the

reasons we are told not to be too

2:42:292:42:33

worried about them, because they

only talked about the direct impact

2:42:332:42:39

of different Brexit scenarios and

they did not take account of the

2:42:392:42:43

massive benefit of all the new trade

deals we were going to get, everyone

2:42:432:42:46

would be falling over each other to

trade with us after Brexit. As the

2:42:462:42:52

honourable member pointed out, the

government's analysis indicates

2:42:522:42:56

maybe we can increase GDP by as much

as 0.75%, we could be looking at a

2:42:562:43:06

breakfast deficit, depending on just

how hard Brexiteers are able to push

2:43:062:43:13

it to be -- Brexit deficit. Zero put

75% mitigation will not do much for

2:43:132:43:22

the communities devastated -- 0.75%.

Thank you for letting me into being.

2:43:222:43:27

Could I ask where he got those

figures from?

I got them from Her

2:43:272:43:32

Majesty's government. If he wants to

tell me we should never believe

2:43:322:43:41

anything Her Majesty's government

civil service tells us, that is a

2:43:412:43:43

debate in itself, those were the

figures released under significant

2:43:432:43:48

protest and I highly recommend the

document to him. I think someone

2:43:482:43:52

over you wanted to come in. Having

had analysis done at significant

2:43:522:44:01

expense, those who instructed it to

be carried out now want to downplay

2:44:012:44:05

it, to discredit it. I am pleased we

are no longer seeing any suggestion

2:44:052:44:12

anything incompetent or negligent in

the performance of those who

2:44:122:44:16

produced those figures. But those

who think that the Treasury's

2:44:162:44:21

figures are wildly too pessimistic,

they have every opportunity to

2:44:212:44:25

produce their own and they might

find someone who produces figures

2:44:252:44:27

giving the lying to any other number

of professional bodies who do not

2:44:272:44:35

always agree to the exact figures,

but few if any are producing a

2:44:352:44:39

scenario that is anything other than

deeply damaging for our economy and

2:44:392:44:45

the social cohesion of our poor

nations. I thought it was

2:44:452:44:49

interesting when the minister was

speaking, took an intervention from

2:44:492:44:54

a colleague about an article in the

Times, and his answers seem to

2:44:542:44:58

suggest it was only when he read it

in the Times that the Government

2:44:582:45:02

knew there had been a softening of

the attitude of Brussels towards the

2:45:022:45:06

ability to negotiate trade deals,

perhaps the Minister could clarify

2:45:062:45:10

that, but wouldn't it just be

typical of the shambolic nature the

2:45:102:45:15

Government are conducting the

negotiations and if they were

2:45:152:45:19

getting their information from the

front page of Rupert Murdoch's

2:45:192:45:24

newspapers rather than face-to-face

contact with European friends and

2:45:242:45:26

allies. When the Government was

asked to name a simple country who

2:45:262:45:30

have said they will give us a better

trade deal out of the EU, not a

2:45:302:45:36

single country named willing to do

that. A lot of ambitious and grand

2:45:362:45:41

talk of countries who want to trade

with us, they wish list, a pie in

2:45:412:45:46

the sky list, no reason to believe

that any of these countries will

2:45:462:45:50

give us a better deal than we can

get by staying exactly where we are.

2:45:502:45:57

What the Government asks for is not

necessarily what they will get

2:45:572:46:01

because the 27 other governments are

just as determined and entitled to

2:46:012:46:04

look after the interests of the

people they represent. The right

2:46:042:46:13

honourable member used the tiled old

argument that the trade deficit with

2:46:132:46:19

the EU and trade surplus with the

rest of the world so therefore we

2:46:192:46:22

should concentrate on the rest of

the world. Some of us managed to

2:46:222:46:26

have a trade surplus with the EU,

apart from that fact, the

2:46:262:46:30

consequence of that argument is that

the rest of the world has a huge

2:46:302:46:34

trade deficit with us so why would

they want to continue trading with

2:46:342:46:38

us? It is not because Europe is bad

that they have a trade surplus with

2:46:382:46:42

us, it is because they are better

than us at industry, manufacturing,

2:46:422:46:47

the cradle of the industrial

revolution has allowed others to

2:46:472:46:53

overtake us with investment and

improving manufacturing efficiency.

2:46:532:46:56

That is why the Germans have a trade

surplus while we cannot. It is not

2:46:562:47:01

because the rules are loaded in

their favour, they are not cheating.

2:47:012:47:07

They invest in the industry instead

of it going to an offshore tax

2:47:072:47:11

haven.

I am grateful. I am glad he

had the opportunity to finish is

2:47:112:47:19

rather more socialist points. The

problem with the regime, the

2:47:192:47:25

regulatory regime in the EU, the

whole regulatory system is not

2:47:252:47:31

geared towards our interests and our

economy and that is why I'm not

2:47:312:47:34

least because Germany enjoys a very

artificially depressed country, they

2:47:342:47:41

have by far the biggest trade

surplus, artificially depressed

2:47:412:47:48

currency, they have by far the

biggest trade surplus as a

2:47:482:47:51

consequence and the currency never

appreciates because they are in the

2:47:512:47:54

euro, that has cemented a completely

unfair disadvantaged,

2:47:542:47:59

institutionalised by the EU.

Is he

making an argument for the Euro?

2:47:592:48:08

That is an interesting argument for

the gentleman to make. I'm not

2:48:082:48:12

saying I would necessarily agree

with the inevitable conclusion, but

2:48:122:48:15

he seems to be tying himself in

knots very effectively. I do need to

2:48:152:48:21

come back to the comment from the

Labour front bench spokesperson, the

2:48:212:48:29

rights of citizens, whether they

have lived here their entire lives,

2:48:292:48:32

whether they have come from other

countries, gone from here to other

2:48:322:48:37

countries, and I think we should be

absolutely uncompromising and

2:48:372:48:42

celebrating immigration as a good

thing. Yes, it sometimes means some

2:48:422:48:48

bad people come here, but tens of

millions of times more often it

2:48:482:48:52

means good people can come here and

our people can go to other places,

2:48:522:48:56

the exchange of ideas, for example,

is something you cannot put a price

2:48:562:49:00

on. I want us to be talking about

free movement of ideas because that

2:49:002:49:04

is what is at stake more than

anything else and to try to suggest

2:49:042:49:08

immigration is responsible for the

low pay and insecure jobs in these

2:49:082:49:12

islands, I think it lets the

government off the hook. When the

2:49:122:49:18

Leader of the Opposition told an

audience, not a very big audience,

2:49:182:49:21

last week and I quote, we cannot be

held back inside or outside the EU

2:49:212:49:25

from preventing employers being able

to import cheap agency labour to

2:49:252:49:28

undercut existing conditions in the

name of free-market orthodoxy. I'm

2:49:282:49:35

disappointed the Labour front bench

have not apologise for that and

2:49:352:49:38

invited their leader to withdraw it,

as a lot of the backbenchers has, it

2:49:382:49:43

is not the EU responsible for low

pay, it is successive governments

2:49:432:49:48

who introduced eventually a minimum

wage but left us with a minimum wage

2:49:482:49:51

still not enough people to live on.

It is not the EU that allows

2:49:512:49:56

employers and agencies to exploit

vulnerable desperate workers, it is

2:49:562:50:01

domestic legislation. And if

anything, coming out of the

2:50:012:50:04

protection of EU employment law,

that will not make it easier for

2:50:042:50:09

vulnerable employees to speak up for

themselves. The good economy, low

2:50:092:50:13

pay economy, it will not improve

coming out of the EU -- gig economy.

2:50:132:50:26

If anyone thinks the Conservative

Party want to come out at the EU to

2:50:262:50:31

improve employment rights, they need

to look at the history in these

2:50:312:50:33

islands. It is unfortunate Brexit

has become an all consuming

2:50:332:50:37

obsession for the Government and

this parliament but it is inevitable

2:50:372:50:41

because if we get it wrong, as the

Government seem determined to get it

2:50:412:50:46

wrong, generation after generation

after generation will be paying the

2:50:462:50:50

price socially and economically. We

discovered that from a previous

2:50:502:50:57

government policy, we are talking

about payment for part of the deal

2:50:572:50:59

of around £37 billion, we will still

be paying that if and when I am 104

2:50:592:51:06

years old. And possibly some members

here will not be around to see that.

2:51:062:51:12

That is how long it will take simply

to pay for a bad deal. I have hardly

2:51:122:51:20

even mention the potential

catastrophe in Ireland. I am deeply

2:51:202:51:24

concerned ministers still seem quite

taken with this smart border 2.0

2:51:242:51:31

proposal published a few weeks ago.

Smart border 2.0 explicitly says it

2:51:312:51:38

relies on automatic barriers at the

border, infrastructure, surveillance

2:51:382:51:44

cameras, staffed checkpoints at the

border of Northern Ireland and the

2:51:442:51:53

Republic of Ireland. I hope that if

the minister says nothing else in

2:51:532:51:56

summing up, they will say clearly, I

cannot remember the big fancy word,

2:51:562:52:05

in such a way that none of the

backbenchers can say again that

2:52:052:52:08

smart border is 2.0, the proposals,

they are so inconsistent with the

2:52:082:52:14

Government's commitments, so

incompatible with the Northern

2:52:142:52:18

Ireland peace process, the Good

Friday Agreement, it is an

2:52:182:52:20

interesting idea that will go no

further, it will not be taken

2:52:202:52:24

further by the Government, it will

certainly not be taken any further

2:52:242:52:27

by the EU listening to the

Government of the Republic of

2:52:272:52:30

Ireland. To date... I will give way.

He is making a very good point about

2:52:302:52:38

the practicalities of the Irish

border, Northern Irish border, would

2:52:382:52:42

he agree there are people whose

properties straddle the border and

2:52:422:52:49

they are not being addressed at all?

Absolutely. So long ago I do not

2:52:492:52:54

think the Brexit Secretary nor the

Foreign Secretary can't remember the

2:52:542:52:58

last time they visited the Irish

border and I think that is failing

2:52:582:53:01

that both of them got to put write

quite soon. I did not understand

2:53:012:53:08

quite how important it was until I

went there and we could not find the

2:53:082:53:11

border between the two sovereign

states, that is what borders should

2:53:112:53:15

be these days, not easy to see on a

map, not physical barriers, they

2:53:152:53:20

should be physical routes for an

exchange of people and ideas.

2:53:202:53:27

To date, nobody has put forward a

proposal that allows the

2:53:272:53:32

government's red lines about leaving

the customs union and the single

2:53:322:53:35

market to be compatible with other

red lines about honouring the spirit

2:53:352:53:41

and letter of the Northern Ireland

Good Friday Agreement the time is

2:53:412:53:44

coming when in that irreconcilable

ability cannot be allowed to

2:53:442:53:49

continue, and I would suggest if the

government cannot come up with their

2:53:492:53:53

own clear and detailed proposal

within the next few weeks to

2:53:532:54:00

reconcile those irreconcilable red

lines, then the red lines of customs

2:54:002:54:03

union and the red line of single

market have got to go because the

2:54:032:54:07

red line of continuing the peace

process in Ireland cannot be

2:54:072:54:11

sacrificed under any circumstances.

I appealed to the Minister to give

2:54:112:54:17

assurances in summing up that's

nothing is proposed that would

2:54:172:54:22

involve staff checkpoints at the

Irish border will be given any

2:54:222:54:28

credibility in these negotiations.

I

have business interests which I have

2:54:282:54:35

declared on the register but I was

not planning to talk about those

2:54:352:54:39

today. Before the referendum, I gave

a speech in this House saying we had

2:54:392:54:42

become a puppet parliament, all too

often regulations came from the EU

2:54:422:54:48

which we could do nothing about at

all because they were directly

2:54:482:54:52

acting and in many other cases, even

where we had been voted over not

2:54:522:54:56

happy about the proposition a

directive instructed this House that

2:54:562:55:01

it had to put through a massive and

complex legislation, whether it

2:55:012:55:05

wished to or not. We had a situation

where the front benches of the main

2:55:052:55:10

parties alternating in government as

they tended to do went along with

2:55:102:55:12

this and the convention was that the

opposition did not really oppose

2:55:122:55:17

because they knew that this

parliament was powerless, the

2:55:172:55:22

decision had been made elsewhere,

whether the British people liked it

2:55:222:55:25

or not, even extending to tax

matters, where there are a number of

2:55:252:55:30

VAT issues where we cannot change

VAT in the way we would like, or

2:55:302:55:35

issues over corporation tax where we

thought we had barely levied our

2:55:352:55:39

money on countries but the EU

decided otherwise and made us give

2:55:392:55:42

it back. Many British people shared

my concern and that was why we all

2:55:422:55:47

went out together and voted in large

numbers to take back control. The

2:55:472:55:53

British people wanted to trust their

British Parliament again. Of course,

2:55:532:55:58

they will find times where they

dislike the government, individual

2:55:582:56:02

MPs, hold parties, but they can live

with it because they can get rid of

2:56:022:56:05

us, they know that come the

election, if we cease to please,

2:56:052:56:08

they can throw that out and put in

place a group will carry out their

2:56:082:56:13

wishes. They said very clearly to

our parliaments that referendum,

2:56:132:56:17

take back control, do your job. We

heard an example again recently

2:56:172:56:24

where Her Majesty 's government

presented a long and complex piece

2:56:242:56:28

of legislation completely

transforming our data protection

2:56:282:56:29

legislation. Because it was entirely

based upon new EU proposals, it went

2:56:292:56:38

through without any formal

opposition, the opposition a baby

2:56:382:56:42

convention and did not vote against

legislation and did not really try

2:56:422:56:46

very hard to criticise it. I am sure

if that piece of legislation had

2:56:462:56:50

been invented in Whitehall and

promoted actively by UK ministers,

2:56:502:56:53

the opposition have done their job

and found things to disagree with

2:56:532:56:57

and would have made more proposals

to improve it. But we still have

2:56:572:57:02

this puppet parliament effect all

the time that we are under this

2:57:022:57:06

control from Brussels. I want to

talk about... I give way.

Based on

2:57:062:57:15

the scenario he is now putting

forward, isn't it the truth that has

2:57:152:57:19

Brexit the Welsh Parliament and

Scottish Parliament would also be

2:57:192:57:22

puppet parliaments?

That is not

true, in their devolved areas they

2:57:222:57:28

have genuine power which they will

exercise in accordance with their

2:57:282:57:32

elector's wishes, but of course this

is the sovereign United Kingdom

2:57:322:57:35

Parliament, and the devolved powers

come from sovereign parliament as he

2:57:352:57:40

well understands, which is

presumably why he likes being

2:57:402:57:42

represented in the sovereign

parliament.

Could my friend also

2:57:422:57:47

bear in mind that the manner in

which laws are made in Europe is

2:57:472:57:53

behind the closed doors of

ministers, there is no proper record

2:57:532:57:55

of who votes in which direction, how

and why, and we are outvoted more

2:57:552:57:59

than any other country, those laws

imposed upon us in this parliament.

2:57:592:58:08

I quite agree. Time presses. We wish

to take back control and it will be

2:58:082:58:12

a very different and better country

when this parliament can settle how

2:58:122:58:17

much tax we levied, how we levied

attacks, how we spend the money, how

2:58:172:58:22

we conduct ourselves and what kind

of laws we want to see. The conduct

2:58:222:58:30

of the negotiations, I wish the

government every success, I hope

2:58:302:58:36

they get a good deal, I look forward

to seeing where they get to. The EU

2:58:362:58:40

is trying to make it as difficult as

possible because they are insisting

2:58:402:58:45

on conducting the EU negotiations in

reverse order, so they say we must

2:58:452:58:50

first agree to pay a load of money

we don't owe, then they say we must

2:58:502:58:54

agree a long transition period which

coincides with their further budget

2:58:542:58:58

period so they can carry on levying

all that money before getting on to

2:58:582:59:01

what really matters, which is the

future relationship. Will there be a

2:59:012:59:07

comprehensive free trade agreements,

what will it cover, will it be

2:59:072:59:11

better than just leaving on the WTA

times? In order to have a successful

2:59:112:59:16

negotiating position, the government

has rightly sketched out a couple of

2:59:162:59:19

very important propositions. The

first is, nothing is agreed until

2:59:192:59:24

everything is agreed. This is

fundamental and I would urge the

2:59:242:59:27

Treasury bench to understand, they

must not sign any withdrawal

2:59:272:59:32

agreement unless and until there is

a combo heads of agreement which is

2:59:322:59:35

credible and can be legally

upstanding, because there is no

2:59:352:59:39

point in paying money for nothing.

There would only be any point in

2:59:392:59:43

giving them all that money if there

were a combo heads of agreement that

2:59:432:59:46

the government and the country at

large was proud of and enough voters

2:59:462:59:51

agreed with as well as remain

voters. The second thing which the

2:59:512:59:56

government has rightly said is that

no deal is better than a bad deal.

2:59:563:00:01

But again is fundamental to the

negotiation. I have never made any

3:00:013:00:05

bones about it before the

referendum, I thought it was a fine

3:00:053:00:11

outcome, for me no deal is a lot

better than staying in the EU. It

3:00:113:00:15

gives us complete control over our

money and we can start spending

3:00:153:00:18

money on our priorities. It gives us

control over our laws and we can

3:00:183:00:23

pass the laws and taxes we want. We

have the migration policy of our

3:00:233:00:29

choosing. It gives us complete right

and freedom to negotiate a trade

3:00:293:00:34

policy with the EU and anybody else,

of course that depends on the

3:00:343:00:37

goodwill of the other side as well.

I would far rather be in that

3:00:373:00:41

position than be part of a customs

union where I have very little

3:00:413:00:44

implements and where it is extremely

restrictive against others. There is

3:00:443:00:48

an awful lot going for no deal. The

Minister and his colleagues must

3:00:483:00:53

stick to the proposition that they

only recommend a deal to this House

3:00:533:00:56

if it is manifestly better than no

deal. They need to keep reminding

3:00:563:01:00

the EU negotiators that no deal

offers Britain most of what it

3:01:003:01:07

wanted when it voted to take back

control.

Can my honourable friend

3:01:073:01:12

confirm whether or not he has seen

the analysis that has been conducted

3:01:123:01:15

by the government, that shows and

apparently it is excellent modelling

3:01:153:01:22

that the government has done, far

better than anything it did in the

3:01:223:01:25

run-up to the EU referendum that

shows that if we were to crash out

3:01:253:01:30

with no deal and rely on World Trade

Organisation tariffs, our projected

3:01:303:01:34

increase in productivity and growth

for our economy would be reduced by

3:01:343:01:40

7.7%, do you think that is what his

remain voting constituents in the

3:01:403:01:45

majority voted for?

With only ten

minutes I do not have to go time --

3:01:453:01:58

do not have time to go into in the

bottle but we know the Treasury got

3:01:583:02:02

entirely the wrong answer for 18

months after the referendum, the

3:02:023:02:05

short term forecast which should be

easier to do was massively wrong.

3:02:053:02:10

Forecasting a recession, I and

others in the referendum put our

3:02:103:02:13

forecasting reputation on the line

by saying there would be growth

3:02:133:02:17

after a no vote, and out to vote,

rather than the Treasury forecast.

3:02:173:02:21

We were right then, I would like to

assure my honourable friend I have

3:02:213:02:28

not voted for anything that will

make us poorer, we will be going

3:02:283:02:30

well as long as we follow the right

domestic policies, it is complete

3:02:303:02:33

nonsense to say there will be that

kind of hit. It implies we lose over

3:02:333:02:37

half our exports to the European

Union and it does not give a proper

3:02:373:02:40

reflection of what would happen to

our trade adjustment were anything

3:02:403:02:43

that big to happen. I want to

concentrate on the customs union

3:02:433:02:48

because my honourable friend will

want to share this, if the

3:02:483:02:55

opposition decide to have a third go

at voting through customs union or a

3:02:553:03:01

customs union membership. I remind

the House we have twice had very big

3:03:013:03:03

boats in the Commons where the

Commons by a large majority has

3:03:033:03:08

voted against us staying in the EU

or a customs union, once as an

3:03:083:03:14

amendment on the Queen's Speech and

once on the EU withdrawal Bill. Some

3:03:143:03:17

Labour members may have changed

their minds and want to do it again,

3:03:173:03:21

I'm a democrat... The opposition has

their own ways of doing what they

3:03:213:03:24

want to do. I would urge them not to

vote to try to stay in the customs

3:03:243:03:28

union, above all for the Labour

Party, I may not at all worried

3:03:283:03:32

about poverty in the emerging market

world? Don't they think it's wrong

3:03:323:03:36

that we place huge tariffs on

tropical produce from poor

3:03:363:03:40

countries, produce we cannot grow

for ourselves? Wouldn't it be great

3:03:403:03:44

when we are outside the EU customs

union to be able to take this hurts

3:03:443:03:47

down and give those countries more

of a hope of promoting themselves by

3:03:473:03:51

good trade, and at the same time

benefit our customers buy the

3:03:513:03:55

cheaper tropical products we would

be able to buy. Kammy do good trade

3:03:553:04:00

deals with those emerging markets

across the piece because the tariffs

3:04:003:04:04

are too high and there could be

mutually advantageous changes if we

3:04:043:04:08

were free to do that? I would urge

the Labour Party to remember its

3:04:083:04:12

roots in campaigning against poverty

and to join me in saying the best

3:04:123:04:16

way to get the world out of poverty

is to get high tariffs down off the

3:04:163:04:20

emerging market countries which the

EU imposes and which I certainly do

3:04:203:04:26

not agree with. To the government,

please make sure you remind them

3:04:263:04:33

that no deal is better than a bad

deal and no deal allows us to take

3:04:333:04:37

back control over all those things

where he and I promised to take back

3:04:373:04:42

control. Will he remember that we do

not owe them any money and it would

3:04:423:04:46

be fatally wrong to pay them loads

of money if everything else does not

3:04:463:04:50

work the way it wanted.

On the

subject of the deal, can my right

3:04:503:04:57

honourable friend confirm that he

agrees with the Prime Minister that

3:04:573:05:00

we are looking for a deal that

covers many sectors not covered by

3:05:003:05:04

the WTO, for example aviation, data

exchange, and having a mutual

3:05:043:05:10

recognition of financial services

though that trade in these areas can

3:05:103:05:14

easily continue?

I'm afraid our time

is up. I believe we should negotiate

3:05:143:05:24

strongly and positively, I wish my

right honourable friend every

3:05:243:05:28

success and I wish to strengthen her

hand by saying that out there in the

3:05:283:05:31

country, the messages get on with

it. If that means leaving with no

3:05:313:05:36

deal, that is absolutely fine.

That's is a quote to place on the

3:05:363:05:47

side of a big red bus which I hope

will drive around the streets of

3:05:473:05:51

working in the years to come,

especially if we do end up with no

3:05:513:05:56

deal, as he seems to be advocating,

is absolutely fine. The UK crashes

3:05:563:06:01

out of our long-standing alliance

with our friends and our trading

3:06:013:06:08

partners, our greatest and nearest

trading partners, and we end up

3:06:083:06:12

with, as his own Treasury forecasts,

a hit of 8% to our GDP by 2033. His

3:06:123:06:21

disloyalty, he shakes his head, his

own Treasury bench will be noting

3:06:213:06:27

that the figures from Her Majesty's

Treasury have been disputed by his

3:06:273:06:31

own particular backbenchers. It's

important that we talk about

3:06:313:06:35

European affairs. The honourable

member for Wokingham advocated

3:06:353:06:41

taking back control as the key on

his own isolated from all around him

3:06:413:06:47

can triumph and prosper without

relationships and those links with

3:06:473:06:54

the outside world. It's tempting to

envisage the right honourable member

3:06:543:06:58

for Wokingham locked in this room on

his own, the doors closed just to

3:06:583:07:03

see how he would thrive without the

sort of relationships and sustenance

3:07:033:07:07

that others provide. So too for the

British economy, there is this

3:07:073:07:14

fallacy about independent

sovereignty, a small island we can

3:07:143:07:18

cope on our own without the rest of

the world. These days, on the 21st

3:07:183:07:22

century in a modern economy, we rely

of the world and they also benefit

3:07:223:07:28

from our engagement with them. I

think we risk serious harm, self

3:07:283:07:35

harm, if we try and pretend that

detaching ourselves from those

3:07:353:07:42

alliances and relationships and

going for the very first time

3:07:423:07:45

towards less market access, as the

Prime Minister advocates, is somehow

3:07:453:07:50

going to make us better off. It

won't, it will make us poorer.

3:07:503:07:57

He is talking about a world that is

long gone, in actual fact. When I

3:07:573:08:04

remember him as a minister, his

judgment was faulty, but the

3:08:043:08:09

honourable gentleman talks about

taking powers back from Europe, over

3:08:093:08:16

the last two days, we're not getting

our powers back under his terms,

3:08:163:08:21

what is happening is the Government

are trying to tell us what to do...

3:08:213:08:27

We have to recognise that in so many

areas of policy, not just economic,

3:08:273:08:33

trade, we benefit from these

alliances and relationships and they

3:08:333:08:36

need to be worked on and we need to

somehow give and take a little bit,

3:08:363:08:41

that is the nature of the

neighbourhood, the global

3:08:413:08:44

neighbourhood, in which we live. It

would be remiss if I did not at this

3:08:443:08:48

point also voice my own appreciation

today to the statement from France,

3:08:483:08:56

from Germany, who have shown their

solidarity and fraternity with the

3:08:563:09:01

UK in respect of the Russian

chemical attack in Salisbury. I

3:09:013:09:09

think it is important, we're talking

about European affairs, that Europe

3:09:093:09:13

stands together at an important

moment like this but it is Brexit

3:09:133:09:16

that is bound to dominate this sort

of debate today and there are a

3:09:163:09:21

number of aspects I want to pick up

on this afternoon. First of all, the

3:09:213:09:24

question about the frictionless

borders, the trade arrangements that

3:09:243:09:32

we have absolutely got to maintain,

not just for our own economic

3:09:323:09:37

continuance, but also because of the

red Friday agreement and avoiding

3:09:373:09:42

anything that could diminish the

peace settlement in Northern Ireland

3:09:423:09:48

-- the Good Friday Agreement. The

phase one agreement said, if they

3:09:483:09:51

cannot come up with alternative

arrangements, full alignment will be

3:09:513:09:57

the way forward. My understanding is

that the Secretary of State for

3:09:573:10:02

Exiting the EU has this morning

admitted that this notion of the

3:10:023:10:06

technological option, the smart

boarders option, it will not work

3:10:063:10:12

because it requires hard

infrastructure at the borders and

3:10:123:10:14

you will know there are 270, maybe

275, crossing points on the border

3:10:143:10:23

between Northern Ireland and the

Republic of Ireland and the notion

3:10:233:10:26

of having that hard infrastructure,

cameras, inspection posts, who knows

3:10:263:10:32

what, it is clearly not compatible

with the Good Friday Agreement, so

3:10:323:10:36

the Government have ruled that out.

The only one that exists is

3:10:363:10:40

therefore some sort of magical deal

where the UK agrees to administer

3:10:403:10:47

the external tariff arrangements for

the rest of the EU while

3:10:473:10:55

simultaneously administering our own

separate tariff arrangements for

3:10:553:10:58

goods destined just within the UK.

This does not happen any Ross in the

3:10:583:11:03

world. As well as being a complete

bureaucratic nightmare, it would

3:11:033:11:09

require reciprocity from our other

European partners to do the same --

3:11:093:11:14

this does not happen anywhere else

in the world. They would have to

3:11:143:11:17

administer the jewel tariff system

for goods destined to the UK and

3:11:173:11:22

those destined for themselves, it is

not going to happen. When the

3:11:223:11:29

Government Minister winds up the

debate, he would do well to admit to

3:11:293:11:32

the phase one agreement he signed up

to now means full regulatory

3:11:323:11:37

alignment and the customs union is

the best and simplest way for this

3:11:373:11:41

to be achieved. I think the fact

that the Government are trying their

3:11:413:11:47

best, scrabbling around in

conversations with the Road haulage

3:11:473:11:51

industry, trade bodies, cargo and

freight companies, saying, what is

3:11:513:11:56

the volume of traffic you have? What

is happening in terms of trade?

3:11:563:12:01

Making them sign nondisclosure

agreements to try to guide them if

3:12:013:12:06

they dare to speak, even to their

own trade body members, about

3:12:063:12:12

conversations with ministers, it

shows how desperate the situation

3:12:123:12:17

is.

-- try to gag them. Has he

considered the possibility the

3:12:173:12:22

reason the Government looking for

nondisclosure agreements is so that

3:12:223:12:26

the next time the Labour front bench

comes forward with a humble address

3:12:263:12:31

motion, they will use the fact they

have signed up to nondisclosure

3:12:313:12:35

motions to try to stop Parliament

from finding out what is going on?

3:12:353:12:39

It is very tempting for us to have a

series of motions in this House and

3:12:393:12:44

to keep extracting these documents

from the Government. From all of the

3:12:443:12:50

bluster of the Spring Statement, I

still regard the best documents the

3:12:503:12:54

Treasury has published for some

time, albeit reluctantly, the 30

3:12:543:12:58

slides in the power pack showing

amongst other things £55 billion

3:12:583:13:04

black hole in the public finances by

2033 if we opt for that middle

3:13:043:13:09

scenario, the FPA style scenario --

free trade agreement style scenario,

3:13:093:13:18

the level of cuts to our public

services that would see at least a

3:13:183:13:23

decade or more more austerity. I say

to my honourable friend is on the

3:13:233:13:27

front bench, although my honourable

friend gave an excellent speech,

3:13:273:13:31

having got the Labour Party now to

support a customs union, it is the

3:13:313:13:35

logic of all of the arguments of my

front bench colleagues to support

3:13:353:13:39

retaining our participation in the

single market in order to avoid that

3:13:393:13:43

austerity in years to come. That

single market set of arguments, how

3:13:433:13:49

I would like to finish my remarks

today, because not only do we need

3:13:493:13:54

to remember that the UK is an 80%

service sector economy, so whilst

3:13:543:14:01

being in the customs union is good

for the 20% of our economy based on

3:14:013:14:06

physical goods, manufactured goods,

80% of the economy is on services

3:14:063:14:10

and that is why the single market

matters because it applies

3:14:103:14:14

particularly to the trade in

services and many trades in services

3:14:143:14:17

will not be tariff at or taxed or

diminished, they may be banned

3:14:173:14:24

altogether, particularly in the

field of financial services which

3:14:243:14:28

the minister referenced in his

opening remarks. Financial services

3:14:283:14:32

alone, 11% of our economy,

60sed-macro £66 billion contributing

3:14:323:14:38

to revenues to the exchequer every

single year -- £66 billion. It pays

3:14:383:14:44

for the schools and hospitals of all

honourable members in the Chamber

3:14:443:14:48

today. The Government again

scrabbling around trying to find

3:14:483:14:52

some sort of mutual agreement on

financial services, just getting it

3:14:523:14:58

referenced in some flimsy two sides

of a four future trade relationship

3:14:583:15:03

document, it will definitely not

suffice.

Will be honourable

3:15:033:15:09

gentleman explain to the House why

it is we have an £82 billion deficit

3:15:093:15:15

with the other 27 members of the EU

according to the Office of National

3:15:153:15:20

Statistics?

In some areas, we buy

their goods more than we sell. In

3:15:203:15:27

other areas, we sell more goods than

we buy. Financial services is an

3:15:273:15:31

area where we have a significant

surplus. Financial services is what

3:15:313:15:35

we do particularly well in this

country. The investment Association

3:15:353:15:40

they are exceptionally worried about

the lack of cooperation agreements,

3:15:403:15:43

particularly technical term, that we

have currently by virtue of our

3:15:433:15:48

membership of the EU, will lapse on

exit date. To what extent, maybe the

3:15:483:15:55

Minister can get advice from his

officials on this by the time he

3:15:553:15:59

winds up, is the British Government

trying to seek new or rolls over

3:15:593:16:04

cooperation agreements with the

other 27 member states to make it

3:16:043:16:08

even legal for some financial

services activities to be

3:16:083:16:13

established in other countries? The

single market is about goods as well

3:16:133:16:18

because some goods contain services

aspects. I think of medical products

3:16:183:16:26

requiring certification to be sold.

I think of the automotive sector

3:16:263:16:32

where the society of motor

Manufacturers Federation talk about

3:16:323:16:35

the dangers of nontariff barriers,

the regulatory alignment or

3:16:353:16:43

divergent set of issues which could

be thrown into chaos if we leave the

3:16:433:16:46

single market. I think about the

single market benefits consumers in

3:16:463:16:51

the UK game because they have safe

products, whether they have a right

3:16:513:16:56

of redress, consumers in the UK, the

game. That is why the single market

3:16:563:17:02

matters and there are other issues.

I give way.

He is making an

3:17:023:17:09

important point. An obvious example

of the products were goods are sold

3:17:093:17:14

but an insurance policy is attached,

a classic example where we are world

3:17:143:17:19

leaders and once you start to

disentangle one part of the

3:17:193:17:23

financial echo system, you damage

the whole lot.

He makes a perfect

3:17:233:17:29

point. Imagine a driver departing

from Belfast, crossing the border,

3:17:293:17:34

with insurance cover at present that

does not require any particular

3:17:343:17:41

change by the time he or she arrives

in Dublin, but after exit date, the

3:17:413:17:47

applicability of that insurance

product, it is, well, null and void,

3:17:473:17:53

potentially, or certainly requires

adaptation. This is not just about

3:17:533:17:57

physical goods or the transfer of

manufactured products, some of these

3:17:573:18:02

invisible products matter massively

as well. If there was a car accident

3:18:023:18:07

on that journey from Belfast to

Dublin, where does the liability

3:18:073:18:11

rest and who will enforce it? All

questions entirely unanswered as the

3:18:113:18:16

Government barrels headlong towards

March, 2019. Of all of the things

3:18:163:18:24

that a single market would affect,

the Good Friday Agreement is the one

3:18:243:18:27

I feel most strongly about because I

cannot see a solution to that

3:18:273:18:33

particular problem that does not

require the UK staying in and

3:18:333:18:38

participating in a single market and

the customs union and I say to all

3:18:383:18:43

members, front bench, members

opposite, we cannot assume that even

3:18:433:18:45

a customs arrangement on goods

crossing borders is adequate to

3:18:453:18:54

maintain the principles enshrined in

the Good Friday Agreement. The red

3:18:543:18:58

lines by the Prime Minister were

hers, not on the ballot paper in the

3:18:583:19:06

referendum, as many have said, the

single market, no one was

3:19:063:19:09

questioning the single market in the

referendum campaign. It is for

3:19:093:19:14

Parliament now to politely say to

the Prime Minister, no, the red

3:19:143:19:18

lines are not correct, and if the

Government have the courage to bring

3:19:183:19:23

forward the trade bill, the customs

bill, but certainly when the EU

3:19:233:19:28

withdrawal bill comes back from the

House of Lords, they will have to

3:19:283:19:31

confront the fact there was a

majority in parliament for a customs

3:19:313:19:34

union and I believe also for a

single market. Let us get on with it

3:19:343:19:38

and sort the problem out.

Thank you.

It is an absolute pleasure to follow

3:19:383:19:46

the honourable gentleman for

Nottingham East. On this, we are

3:19:463:19:50

absolutely as one. It is a complete

feature, not just in the run-up to

3:19:503:19:55

the referendum debate, but then in

everything that has followed that

3:19:553:19:58

there is so much agreement between

these benches under benches beyond

3:19:583:20:04

the front bench but increasingly the

front bench, if I may say, is

3:20:043:20:08

recognising the strength of the

argument that we have been making on

3:20:083:20:11

the backbenches of the opposition

and over here on the government

3:20:113:20:16

side, and of course, we have the

agreement of all those that sit on

3:20:163:20:20

that part of the House, the SNP,

Plaid Cymru, is that about it,

3:20:203:20:26

actually? The point is very clear,

this issue, the biggest issue our

3:20:263:20:34

nation has to wrestle with in 40

years, certainly since the Second

3:20:343:20:39

World War, it has on the one hand

divided our country and that

3:20:393:20:45

division continues, but it has also

brought people together from

3:20:453:20:50

different political parties. We have

put aside our party differences

3:20:503:20:53

because on this we are as one and we

have put our country first. I pay

3:20:533:20:59

tribute to all those members who

have spoken out, as they have done,

3:20:593:21:05

often in the face of death threats,

appalling e-mails and criticisms,

3:21:053:21:12

and indeed unpleasantness even from

within our own political parties and

3:21:123:21:21

it is not always easy, but it has

been so important that we do this

3:21:213:21:25

because it is about our country and

even more than that, it is not about

3:21:253:21:30

us, it is about our constituents of

course, but it is about our children

3:21:303:21:36

and our grandchildren and as

honourable members have already

3:21:363:21:39

said, it is about making sure we get

this right because the consequences

3:21:393:21:44

will flow for generations to come.

This is the view I take.

3:21:443:21:50

Undoubtedly, people in this country

are getting utterly fed up with

3:21:503:21:55

Brexit. I was going to say they

don't understand it, and that is not

3:21:553:22:02

a criticism, but when we sit here,

we talk about the finer details of a

3:22:023:22:13

customs union, the customs union,

WTA terrorists, on bananas, cars --

3:22:133:22:22

WTA tariffs. People do not want to

be involved in that, not because

3:22:223:22:25

they do not care, of course they

care desperately, but that is why

3:22:253:22:29

they elect us to this place so that

we get on with all of this stuff and

3:22:293:22:34

we put the country first. They

should not have, in effect, to

3:22:343:22:42

micromanage the politics and the

detail of all of these economic

3:22:423:22:46

consequences and things that flow

from it. They trust us to do it. And

3:22:463:22:50

when they look at this place, I do

not think they are particularly

3:22:503:22:54

impressed with what they see.

3:22:543:22:59

The reality is that the two major

parties are almost together. Now, a

3:22:593:23:04

difference thankfully is now

emerging. We see the opposition

3:23:043:23:10

having the good sense to come out

and out in favour of a Customs

3:23:103:23:13

Union. We know it delivered --

delivers the same arrangement, we

3:23:133:23:26

are not interested in the words. All

I'm interested in is what it

3:23:263:23:29

delivers. That is the only

difference between the Labour Party

3:23:293:23:35

and the front bench, the Treasury

benches of the Government, which I

3:23:353:23:41

obviously support. There is very

little between them. Yet as I've

3:23:413:23:44

said before in this place, if we are

to have a free vote, I have no

3:23:443:23:51

doubt, Mairtin, that the majority of

members of this place will vote in

3:23:513:23:54

favour of a Customs Union. We all

know what we mean because we know

3:23:543:23:59

what it would deliver, the

continuation of peace and prosperity

3:23:593:24:04

in Northern Ireland and avoid the

hard border and convey many other

3:24:043:24:09

benefits, and would vote in favour

of us retaining our membership of

3:24:093:24:13

the Single Market by being a member

of Efta. I have no doubt about that,

3:24:133:24:18

on I don't think the people of this

country are impressed by the fact

3:24:183:24:22

that that is not happening. That is

what they voted us here to do, it is

3:24:223:24:27

big up on behalf of all of them and

their interest, and we shouldn't be

3:24:273:24:31

being held back by three line whip.

And also, a continuing attitude that

3:24:313:24:38

still is there in our society, led

mainly by certain sections of the

3:24:383:24:44

media, that anybody who has the

temerity to speak out about the

3:24:443:24:47

decision, and against the decision

that was made in the EU referendum,

3:24:473:24:54

is in some way a traitor or a

mutineer. It is an outrage. We come

3:24:543:24:59

here to pick free on behalf of all

of our considerate. Yes, I will give

3:24:593:25:03

way.

I thank her for giving way.

Isn't it referendum the biggest free

3:25:033:25:09

vote? Nobody was whipped, there was

argument over weeks and weeks and a

3:25:093:25:14

decision was made. Eight that is a

really interesting point. We have

3:25:143:25:19

had a referendum, I'm grateful for

the intervention. Can we does that

3:25:193:25:22

real about all of this. First of

all, 52% of those that voted voted

3:25:223:25:29

for us to leave the EU. Not one of

them to my knowledge voted to be

3:25:293:25:37

poorer. And 48 by scent of people of

course they did for us to remain

3:25:373:25:43

within the European Union -- 48%.

They have a right to have a say in

3:25:433:25:49

what now happens. I think, if I may

say, there are too many people,

3:25:493:25:54

possibly on these benches, who just

don't understand that a considerable

3:25:543:25:59

portion of those 48% have not just

accepted the vote, but actually now

3:25:593:26:07

feel utterly excluded, sidelined,

pushed to one side, as we move

3:26:073:26:10

forward to deliver the result that

is in the interests of everybody in

3:26:103:26:15

our country, and I give way.

She is

making an impassioned and well

3:26:153:26:20

informed speech. Is it not also the

case that although there was a

3:26:203:26:24

question about membership of the EU

on the ballot paper, there has never

3:26:243:26:28

been a referendum about the Customs

Union and there has never been a

3:26:283:26:31

referendum about the Single Market,

nobody knows what is much for

3:26:313:26:35

certain what people out there want

in relation to these institutions.

I

3:26:353:26:46

thank him for that, he is right. I

take exception to the idea that the

3:26:463:26:49

length and breadth of this country,

people were sitting pubs, cafes,

3:26:493:26:51

bars or whatever discussing the

finer merits or otherwise of the

3:26:513:26:53

Customs Union and the Single Market.

The truth is, there are members of

3:26:533:26:58

this House who do not know what the

Customs Union is. There are members

3:26:583:27:02

of this House who do not understand

what the Single Market is. I'm not

3:27:023:27:08

going to name people, but I have had

conversations, very good

3:27:083:27:12

conversations, with honourable and

right honourable members on these

3:27:123:27:17

benches about Efta. I've explained

for example, if you are a member of

3:27:173:27:22

Efta, you can retain your own

fisheries policy and agriculture

3:27:223:27:28

policy, and, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

have had colleagues who have said to

3:27:283:27:31

me, good heavens, I did know that,

how very interesting! Can you tell

3:27:313:27:35

me now about immigration? Then you

explain about article 102, article

3:27:353:27:40

103 and so forth and the breaks that

could be made on immigration. Madam

3:27:403:27:44

Deputy Speaker, these conversations

have just been occurring in the last

3:27:443:27:47

three or four months. 18 months

after the referendum, nearly one

3:27:473:27:53

year after we triggered Article 50.

And that is why I will say it again,

3:27:533:27:59

when history records what has

happened in the run-up and

3:27:593:28:01

thereafter on this referendum, it

will not report these things and

3:28:013:28:07

what has occurred with any form of

glowing testimony. On the contrary,

3:28:073:28:12

I think we will all of us be painted

very badly, apart from those

3:28:123:28:17

honourable and right honourable

members who at least have stood up

3:28:173:28:20

and spoken out. And if I dared to

say, I think we could be in creasing

3:28:203:28:24

reproved to be right. So, back to

what was meant to be a sort of, you

3:28:243:28:31

know, a speech that wouldn't we as

short as possible, but also stick to

3:28:313:28:36

my script, as it were. So, I think

people are fed up. They want us to

3:28:363:28:40

get on with it. They don't quite

know what it is, some people

3:28:403:28:44

actually think we've already left

the European Union. But they know

3:28:443:28:47

that it's getting very difficult and

very concentrated. And I believe,

3:28:473:28:51

increasingly, people are getting

very worried and very uneasy. It is

3:28:513:28:58

indeed the dawning of Brexit

reality. They know that the deal

3:28:583:29:01

they were told would take, what come

a day and a half, I think what a

3:29:013:29:07

week and a half, is now, if ever, is

going to take a very, very long

3:29:073:29:11

time. When I say forever, what I

mean is, it would be concluded until

3:29:113:29:16

way after we've actually left the

European Union. If the Government

3:29:163:29:20

continues to stick to its timetable,

we will get very loose heads of

3:29:203:29:25

agreement by way of a political

statement attached to the withdrawal

3:29:253:29:28

agreement which this place will vote

on sometime in October, perhaps in

3:29:283:29:32

November of this year. So, they're

beginning to realise they've been

3:29:323:29:36

sold but not pop -- a bit of a pup

on all that. The Irish border, ice

3:29:363:29:46

but to my constituent only last week

who said to me in no uncertain terms

3:29:463:29:49

-- I spoke to a constituent of mine.

She was angry and she voted leave,

3:29:493:29:56

she said, I had no idea about the

allegations that not getting this

3:29:563:29:59

right would have on the Irish border

-- about the obligations. And people

3:29:593:30:06

of a particular generation, Madam

Deputy Speaker, really get and

3:30:063:30:09

understand this, because we are

frankly old enough to remember the

3:30:093:30:13

Bubbles in all their ghastliness. We

also remember the border. -- we are

3:30:133:30:17

old enough to remember the Troubles.

Some of us remember customs border

3:30:173:30:22

checks, when you had to go through

this channel all that channel and

3:30:223:30:25

you were terrified that the

cigarettes, I certainly would never

3:30:253:30:28

have done any of these things of

course! You were terrified that it

3:30:283:30:32

might be uncovered a customs

officer! For huge swathes of our

3:30:323:30:39

country, this means nothing to them.

But for a lot of especially older

3:30:393:30:44

people, they do remember the

Troubles and they also know how

3:30:443:30:47

important it is that the border is

not put back, and they understand

3:30:473:30:55

how critical it has been to the

peace process that there is no

3:30:553:31:01

border between Northern Ireland and

the Republic of Ireland. And they

3:31:013:31:04

are now not just getting worried

about the return of that border, but

3:31:043:31:09

they're actually getting quite cross

about it. And the reason they're

3:31:093:31:12

getting cross about it is not just

that they don't want it but Cosby

3:31:123:31:16

feel that none of this was discussed

and explained before the referendum

3:31:163:31:20

-- but because they feel. We are

sure we now having the debate that

3:31:203:31:26

we should have had before the EU

referendum. I'm looking for was at

3:31:263:31:30

the SNP party benches. One of the

things that they did in Scotland,

3:31:303:31:34

apart from getting the right result,

but being completely serious, the

3:31:343:31:39

debate that they held in Scotland in

the run-up to the referendum was a

3:31:393:31:44

long, long, long properly so debate.

Where Rashid then, I would add to

3:31:443:31:48

say as an outsider, every issue that

was pertinent to that debate on

3:31:483:31:54

independence was properly teased

out, properly discussed. I don't and

3:31:543:31:58

if anybody could have complained

that they didn't know the

3:31:583:32:00

consequences, I will give way.

She

isn't taking an excellent point. In

3:32:003:32:05

Scotland, the Scottish Government

produced a white paper, papers

3:32:053:32:09

outlining what they were proposing.

The no campaign during the European

3:32:093:32:16

union produced a poster on a bus,

that is why we are in the mess we

3:32:163:32:19

are now.

The honourable gentleman

makes a really good point. I was a

3:32:193:32:23

member of that Government that

decided that we would have a

3:32:233:32:29

referendum, and I'm very blunt about

this, I'm actually quite ashamed of

3:32:293:32:34

the fact that I was, I made a

decision that we should have a

3:32:343:32:40

referendum without the proper debate

that we clearly should have had,

3:32:403:32:44

without that long run-up. But it's

more than that, and this is what I

3:32:443:32:49

think the British people are also

coming to this conclusion as well,

3:32:493:32:54

they are saying, how on earth did a

responsible government give us, the

3:32:543:33:00

people of this country,

notwithstanding how brilliant we

3:33:003:33:03

are, but put in front of us an

alternative which we now see will

3:33:033:33:08

cause our country so much harm, and

I really do think that,

3:33:083:33:15

subconsciously, during the

referendum campaign, when project

3:33:153:33:17

there was a full height, which was a

very port campaign on both sides,

3:33:173:33:25

but project there I think was just a

madness and the nonsense. People

3:33:253:33:30

bought themselves subconsciously, no

responsible government would act to

3:33:303:33:33

be but something to us as an

alternative to their preferred

3:33:333:33:36

option that actually would deliver

all of this stuff, that actually

3:33:363:33:41

will harm our economy and undermine

and threaten our security, the

3:33:413:33:44

future and piece of Northern

Ireland, they wouldn't do that. Now

3:33:443:33:48

we know that's exactly what that

option was. But we have, and I too

3:33:483:33:52

must move on. And of course, I just

want to make one last want and then

3:33:523:33:57

I will give way. No, I will take the

intervention because it is relevant.

3:33:573:34:02

I thank her very much for the speech

that she's giving, it's another good

3:34:023:34:06

one. The point that has been made

about the very short period of time

3:34:063:34:12

running up to the referendum when

people had to make a very big

3:34:123:34:15

decision on the basis of very scant

information, it was far, far too

3:34:153:34:21

short to counteract, you know,

decades of misinformation and that

3:34:213:34:24

we have a real responsibility as all

additions to get more information

3:34:243:34:28

and more fact out to constituents so

they can understand the basis on

3:34:283:34:32

which these decisions are going to

make.

That's a very good point. Some

3:34:323:34:36

would argue it is a miracle that 48%

voted for the EU. Anybody who plays

3:34:363:34:41

or watches cricket knows that before

a game you roll the pitch. We take a

3:34:413:34:46

JCB digger to the pitch for last 40

years. It's astonishing having said

3:34:463:34:51

to be but it's absolutely Government

we blame everything, both sides, all

3:34:513:34:55

of us, blamed the EU. If something

was difficult, you just blame the

3:34:553:34:58

EU. In a very short period of time

we said, you know that thing we said

3:34:583:35:04

was actually really rather rubbish,

it's really rather wonderful and we

3:35:043:35:07

should go out and positively vote

for it. The other dawning of the

3:35:073:35:11

Brexit reality, Madam Deputy

Speaker, was of course in the Prime

3:35:113:35:15

Minister's excellent speech that she

delivered a few weeks ago. And she

3:35:153:35:19

in that speech faced up to the

reality in a way that was highly

3:35:193:35:25

commendable. Her tone was right and

I agreed with much of her content.

3:35:253:35:30

But the reality of what she said was

that in admitting that there would

3:35:303:35:35

be no passporting, for example, for

financial services, and that we

3:35:353:35:38

would have less or reduced access to

the market, what she was saying, as

3:35:383:35:44

is being observed by others, is that

for the first time in the history of

3:35:443:35:49

any government in a country

throughout the world, we are act of

3:35:493:35:51

Lee going to pursue a course knowing

it will make us less prosperous than

3:35:513:35:58

we are under the current

arrangements. And that is the view

3:35:583:36:03

of Her Majesty is government. And I

hope that as we go forward, perhaps

3:36:033:36:08

the Government in that spirit of

reality will also understand that

3:36:083:36:16

this can and must be stopped. We

cannot pursue a course that will

3:36:163:36:21

make the people of this country less

prosperous. I just wanted... We are

3:36:213:36:28

meant to be talking about the

economic side of our EU relations

3:36:283:36:34

and affairs and just observe this,

the OBR predictions of coursework to

3:36:343:36:40

be welcomed, because they were

better than the predictions that

3:36:403:36:43

they previously made about our

prospects of growth. But I observe,

3:36:433:36:47

as many others have, that we benefit

at the moment from strong labour

3:36:473:36:51

market where we are almost at the

point of having record levels of

3:36:513:36:57

unemployment, and that is new to the

cause that we have more money in the

3:36:573:37:01

coffers by way of taxation and

National Insurance. We have seen in

3:37:013:37:04

the financial and in the insurance

sectors, pay rises of some 7%. And

3:37:043:37:10

of course, as many have observed, a

descent of our colony comprises of

3:37:103:37:17

services. We also note that consumer

spending has risen so up 80% of our

3:37:173:37:21

economy. It means our VAT results

have come up as well. In the

3:37:213:37:27

weakness of sterling, those

companies whose foreign earnings are

3:37:273:37:30

important to them again have seen

that worth go up. We have we have

3:37:303:37:38

today of these things into account

and understand why it is the view of

3:37:383:37:42

many that not withstanding the

better forecast of the OBR, our

3:37:423:37:45

country actually has some of the

slowest, is amongst... Our country

3:37:453:37:55

is in the G20 countries actually

experiencing some of the slowest

3:37:553:37:58

growth.

3:37:583:38:02

So we think we are doing well, but

when you compare to others in the G

3:38:023:38:11

G20 we are not doing as well as we

should do. The point of course is

3:38:113:38:18

this, if we weren't leaving the EU,

we would be doing considerably

3:38:183:38:24

better. That is the point. Our

prospects would be considerably

3:38:243:38:28

higher. And let's be clear about

this, investments are already being

3:38:283:38:35

delayed and unless we get this

transition in place, we know that a

3:38:353:38:40

number of important businesses will

simply leave our shores. And we also

3:38:403:38:45

know that business wants certainty

and in my opinion the certainty

3:38:453:38:49

they're crying out for is to know we

will stay in both the customs union

3:38:493:38:55

and the single market. Nobody should

underestimate the very real risks

3:38:553:39:00

that our country faces if we do not

get this right, businesses will

3:39:003:39:06

simply leave and we have already

seen examples of that and if you

3:39:063:39:10

speak as many of us do to Japanese

companies who were promised by

3:39:103:39:15

Margaret Thatcher, one of the finest

proponents of the single market that

3:39:153:39:21

our country would never leave the

single market, speak to those

3:39:213:39:26

Japanese companies who have invested

billions in real skilled jobs in our

3:39:263:39:31

country and ask them how they see

the prospect of us leaving the

3:39:313:39:35

single market and the customs union

and the European Union, because

3:39:353:39:39

instead of investing here, they will

simply invest in other European

3:39:393:39:43

countries, because that is the, we

were the bridgehead into the EU. I

3:39:433:39:49

have dealt in my interventions with

the Government's analysis and I know

3:39:493:39:56

you're urging me to speed up, but I

haven't had the opportunity to make

3:39:563:40:00

a long speech on this, for a long

time. But I hear you madam Deputy

3:40:003:40:08

Speaker and I take the hint and I'm

coming to my conclusion. But these

3:40:083:40:12

things need to be said. The

Government quite rightly and

3:40:123:40:18

responsibly asked civil servants of

all departments to look at the

3:40:183:40:23

different options available to our

government and analyse them as to

3:40:233:40:30

the economic benefits they may or

may not convey and rightly so. To So

3:40:303:40:39

this is new modelling. Read the

newspapers. Go into the darkened

3:40:393:40:43

room or get them, because the select

committee has had the sense to

3:40:433:40:47

publish them. This is new modelling,

the best available framework

3:40:473:40:53

prepared by civil servants who act

with independence and as usual

3:40:533:40:58

exercising the huge skims that they

have -- skills that they have. They

3:40:583:41:04

recognise all manner of variances of

variety and these analysis, are,

3:41:043:41:12

they believe the best, they're keen

to sing the praises of the

3:41:123:41:17

modelling. What does it reveal? If

the House took the customs union and

3:41:173:41:26

the membership after we left the EU

would see our projected growth fall

3:41:263:41:32

by 1.6% A free trade arrangement,

4.8%. World Trade Organisations

3:41:323:41:38

roads, the cliff edge urged by some

on these benches, the most

3:41:383:41:42

responsible of all options, a

reduction in growth of 7.7%. Those

3:41:423:41:50

models does not include t customs

union and the value of customs

3:41:503:41:53

union. I just want to conclude you

will be pleased to know by way of

3:41:533:42:00

some views on trade deals and again

I'm very concerned that the British

3:42:003:42:05

public is not being properly and

fully informed about trade deals.

3:42:053:42:09

And I would say with respect to the

Treasury bench it is important that

3:42:093:42:17

they're up front with people and

stop putting forward the chasing of

3:42:173:42:24

what is unicorn deals. We enjoy 50

free trade deals by our membership

3:42:243:42:30

of the European Union. The idea we

won't get a deal with Australia is

3:42:303:42:35

just... It is just madness, because

of course the European Union will

3:42:353:42:40

soon be doing a deal with Australia

and who do you think they are going

3:42:403:42:45

to be doing a deal with first? EU or

the United Kingdom? The European

3:42:453:42:50

Union. Of course. So we will benefit

from all these free trade deals any

3:42:503:42:55

event. We are not getting anything

different by leaving the European

3:42:553:43:00

Union. And I think it is, it really

is very... Unfortunate that we're

3:43:003:43:07

not explaining the facts on free

trade arrangements, the 50 or so

3:43:073:43:11

that we have by virtue of our

membership of the European Union and

3:43:113:43:20

the other benefits of the European

Union and the reality even if we get

3:43:203:43:25

every single free trade deal that is

available, it still will not make

3:43:253:43:31

good the loss to our economy by

leaving the European Union. So

3:43:313:43:39

finally, finally, people have got to

wake up and realise that our

3:43:393:43:44

European Union colleagues will miss

us and they want us to stay. If we

3:43:443:43:49

leave, and a future generation wants

us to return, we will not be able to

3:43:493:43:56

rejoin on such good terms as we

currently have. And the European

3:43:563:44:02

Union will miss us, not because of

our trade, they will find new

3:44:023:44:06

markets, great real -- get real on

that, but they will miss us because

3:44:063:44:15

we are the voice of sanity, we are

the check on excesses the ally many

3:44:153:44:22

seek, the honourable gentleman

shakes his head, with great respect,

3:44:223:44:26

go and speak, as many of us have

done, to ambassadors and senior

3:44:263:44:31

members of government and they are

genuinely upset that our country is

3:44:313:44:37

leaving, because of the loss and the

damage it will harm the EU, because

3:44:373:44:41

of the great deal role our kroinlt

has played -- country has played. In

3:44:413:44:47

many respects in the best part of

EU's work, which is in the

3:44:473:44:52

advancement of free trade. I believe

that the people of this country are

3:44:523:44:55

looking for some way out of this

mess, because it is a mess. It is up

3:44:553:45:02

to us as politicians to provide the

leadership. This place cannot

3:45:023:45:07

overturn the referendum, the people

began it and it is for the people to

3:45:073:45:11

finish it. The people are now

entitled to have their say on the

3:45:113:45:17

final deal. I have no doubt about

that. Because it is their future

3:45:173:45:22

that is the most important and

increasingly as the reality dawns

3:45:223:45:29

and they understand the full detail

of what we have done, they're not

3:45:293:45:32

just so much regretting their vote,

not that, they don't like what they

3:45:323:45:38

see on offer as the future out of

the European Union. Let us be clear,

3:45:383:45:45

let the people have a final say on

the final deal.

I appreciate as the

3:45:453:45:52

honourable lady has said, she had a

lot of points to cover. It is also

3:45:523:45:58

obvious to me that nobody, except

the honourable gentleman for Woking,

3:45:583:46:04

has taken the least notice of my

urging to take around ten minutes.

3:46:043:46:13

If I were to put on a time limit now

it would be seven minutes. But I'm

3:46:133:46:18

still going to try to proceed

without a time limit. And I hope

3:46:183:46:26

that members will tailor their

remarks accordingly and I say to

3:46:263:46:34

other members that I do not suffer

if somebody makes a long speech more

3:46:343:46:39

than twice as long as the ten

minutes I recommended, but other

3:46:393:46:45

colleagues do. Hydie Alexander.

Here

we are again, another day and

3:46:453:46:51

another debate on Europe. Nearly two

years after the referendum and at a

3:46:513:46:57

time when te we're facing enormous

challenges here and abroad the truth

3:46:573:47:03

about Brexit is this - our

Government is involved in the

3:47:033:47:08

biggest exercise in reinventing the

wheel that this country has ever

3:47:083:47:11

seen. When nerve agent has been used

in Salisbury to try to kill a former

3:47:113:47:17

spy and we are expelling the largest

number of Russian state personnel

3:47:173:47:21

from our soil for 30 years, I'm sure

I'm not the only one who regrets

3:47:213:47:27

that our first foreign policy

objective at the moment is our

3:47:273:47:32

departure from the European Union.

But we are where we are. And it is

3:47:323:47:36

my view that rather than endlessly

raking over the referendum or making

3:47:363:47:40

the case as to why the public should

have a final say on the deal, we

3:47:403:47:45

need to focus on finding a way

through this that limits the damage

3:47:453:47:50

to our economy, maintains peace in

Northern Ireland, protects

3:47:503:47:53

opportunities for the next

generation and leaves our alliance

3:47:533:47:57

with the rest of Europe as strong as

possible. We need to start by being

3:47:573:48:02

honest. Go out on to a doorstep and

you will struggle to find somebody

3:48:023:48:09

who would vote differently to how

they voted two years ago. There may

3:48:093:48:14

be an increased willingness to

listen to a different point of view

3:48:143:48:17

and there is a sense that the Prime

Minister is making a dog's breakfast

3:48:173:48:23

of the negotiations, but for all the

talk of bringing people together,

3:48:233:48:27

our country is still divided. I

don't want to live in a country that

3:48:273:48:34

is dominated by division over Brexit

for the next the decade or sit in a

3:48:343:48:38

Parliament that fames to get to

grips with the -- fails to get to

3:48:383:48:44

grips with the real problems, simply

because we are pursuing fantasy

3:48:443:48:50

trade deals elsewhere and I don't

want to have to listen to any more

3:48:503:48:55

speeches by Government ministers

that leave us none the wiser as to

3:48:553:48:58

what their policy is and which does

nothing to clear the fog that exists

3:48:583:49:04

in Brussels and in the public

consciousness here. We have got to

3:49:043:49:12

make this easier and cut the

complexity and that means staying in

3:49:123:49:17

the European economic area and

staying part of customs union. The

3:49:173:49:22

sooner the Government wakes up to

this, the sooner we might make

3:49:223:49:28

progress. I know the Prime Minister

bleats on about her deep and special

3:49:283:49:35

relationship but there is no sign of

it. Last year, she admitted that she

3:49:353:49:39

needed more time to sort out future

trading arrangements. She calls it

3:49:393:49:46

an implementation period. Brussels

calls it a transition period. I call

3:49:463:49:51

it cuts yourself more slack in order

to work out what to do. There is no

3:49:513:49:56

guarantee that we get a transition

period. But assuming we do and

3:49:563:50:00

Parliament votes for it as part of a

skeleton withdrawal agreement and

3:50:003:50:06

that is a big if, we would be

legally out of the EU, but our

3:50:063:50:12

trading arrangement ts would stay

the same until 2020. But what then.

3:50:123:50:18

It is like reading a

seven-year-old's letter to father

3:50:183:50:24

Christmas, a wish list combined with

tantrum-like demands. The Prime

3:50:243:50:31

Minister wants no tariffs, but

doesn't want to sign up to the

3:50:313:50:35

common set of standardised tariffs

that apply to goods coming into the

3:50:353:50:40

EU. She doesn't want a border in

Northern Ireland to check where

3:50:403:50:45

goods come from, but nor does she

want one from the Irish Sea. She

3:50:453:50:52

wants a special tracking system for

goods. She talks of technology and

3:50:523:50:59

economic operators, but customs

experts are not convinced. On the

3:50:593:51:03

standards that goods would need to

meet to be sold in future to the EU,

3:51:033:51:07

she wants us to sign up to some of

the rules in some areas, but not all

3:51:073:51:11

of them and wants to reserve the

right to change these arrangements

3:51:113:51:14

in future. She wants to be in some

regulatory agencieses which

3:51:143:51:20

supervice the rules, but only if the

UK court rules on related matter.

3:51:203:51:26

And she is not just if it is just

medicines and chemical and safeties

3:51:263:51:32

or whether there are others too. She

doesn't have an answer on services -

3:51:323:51:38

the area in which which enjoy a

trade surplus with the EU. But she

3:51:383:51:43

talks of creativity and ambition in

finding solutions. There is no trade

3:51:433:51:48

deal in the world that gets close to

guaranteeing the access we have to

3:51:483:51:53

Europe for our services industry.

Our major export to the EU is

3:51:533:51:59

financial services. Canada's is

pearls and semi precious metals, the

3:51:593:52:06

idea that we are basing trading

arrangements on a Canadian-style

3:52:063:52:13

deal while we rule out being part of

the EE A is madness. I'm a London MP

3:52:133:52:18

and I sometimes baulk at the obscene

wealth I see in our city, but I also

3:52:183:52:25

know that the wealthy bankers,

lawyers, hedge fund managers not

3:52:253:52:29

only have money, but they spend it

too. For everyone there are probably

3:52:293:52:34

four or five jobs in events,

hospitality, retail, they're my

3:52:343:52:40

constituent and I cannot bear the

thought of our city losing out to

3:52:403:52:48

Paris, Frankfurt or New York.

Because if we don't get a good deal

3:52:483:52:51

on services, over the next ten years

we will see jobs and economic

3:52:513:52:57

activity drift away. I can't see how

we get this deal even if the EU

3:52:573:53:03

wanted to offer us a good deal, the

trade agreements they have in place

3:53:033:53:07

with other countries and the most

favoured nation clauses would mean

3:53:073:53:12

that what they give to us they would

have to offer to others too.

3:53:123:53:21

If we stay in the European Economic

Area, we could get round that. The

3:53:213:53:26

other point I would make, I don't

think anybody really appreciate the

3:53:263:53:29

extent to which our country is

dependent upon EU labour. The fact

3:53:293:53:33

that after two years after the

referendum, the Government has no

3:53:333:53:39

answer to what the post Brexit

immigration system will look like

3:53:393:53:44

speaks absolute volumes. Last week,

I met the HR director of a major

3:53:443:53:51

restaurant group that has about 300

restaurants in the UK, 61% of their

3:53:513:53:56

chefs are from the EU. When I walk

from Lewisham to Catford I see huge

3:53:563:54:03

signs outside small domiciliary care

agencies desperate., and that's not

3:54:033:54:11

before we get to talking about the

recruitment and retention problems

3:54:113:54:15

in the NHS. I don't know how many

times I have to say this, we aren't

3:54:153:54:19

ageing population. We control

immigration from countries which

3:54:193:54:25

account for 90% of the world's

population. We need people to come

3:54:253:54:29

here to work. You are EU migrants

means fewer taxpayers and fewer

3:54:293:54:34

people spending money in our shops

-- fewer EU migrants. I've reflect

3:54:343:54:38

it recently, Madam Deputy Speaker,

on why I care so much about this

3:54:383:54:43

issue. And I think, if I'm honest,

it's intensely personal. We seem to

3:54:433:54:48

forget that freedom of movement

works two ways. People come here,

3:54:483:54:53

but we can also go and live in other

European countries. I grew up in a

3:54:533:55:00

working-class family. My dad's and

Alec cushion, my mum's a dinner

3:55:003:55:04

lady, I was the first person in my

family to go to university -- my

3:55:043:55:08

dad's and electrician. I dreamt of

travelling the world when I was

3:55:083:55:12

young, but I knew that the bank of

mum and dad was not an option. I

3:55:123:55:16

lived for a year in Austria. I

worked as a holiday rep. I fell in

3:55:163:55:22

love with the country and I ended up

married to somebody who is half

3:55:223:55:25

Austrian. I genuinely feel that the

ease with which I could go and live

3:55:253:55:32

in another European country allowed

me to live my dreams. It gave me

3:55:323:55:37

opportunities, and I don't want

those to be denied to the next

3:55:373:55:41

generation. If you listen to Nigel

Farage, the EU is the preoccupation

3:55:413:55:45

of the middle classes. It's not. I

think we need to stay in a Customs

3:55:453:55:51

Union and in the Single Market to

maintain a close relationship with

3:55:513:55:54

Europe. I think we should be

prepared to preserve the principle

3:55:543:55:59

of freedom of movement within that,

even if we administer it slightly

3:55:593:56:04

differently. We also have to dial

down the rhetoric on all of this, as

3:56:043:56:12

I really worry about where it all

ends up. If you think of the

3:56:123:56:16

newspaper pages we've seen in the

last year, where does the bellicose

3:56:163:56:21

language, the blame and brinkmanship

actually get as? My grandfather and

3:56:213:56:25

my husband's grandfather fought on

opposing sides in the Second World

3:56:253:56:32

War. Mine walked across Europe when

he was liberated from a prisoner of

3:56:323:56:35

war camp, and my husband's

grandfather absconded from

3:56:353:56:40

Scandinavia and made his way home to

Austria. These borders that

3:56:403:56:46

crisscross my own family's history

should not go back up. We should not

3:56:463:56:52

be taking opportunities away from

the Next Generation. We should not

3:56:523:56:55

fool ourselves into believing that

there is a golden economic future

3:56:553:57:00

without a close relationship with

the EU. The Government needs to be

3:57:003:57:05

honest about this. They need to be

honest that the political choices

3:57:053:57:09

they have made in the last two years

are not automatic consequences of

3:57:093:57:14

the referendum. They need to rub out

their red lines, and they need to do

3:57:143:57:19

the right thing for the economy, for

the next generation, and for our

3:57:193:57:24

place in the world. And I believe

that means staying part of the

3:57:243:57:29

Single Market and the Customs Union.

Order. The honourable lady for the

3:57:293:57:35

mission did very well on her ten

minutes, but I give in. We have to

3:57:353:57:39

have a formal time limit of eight

minutes. Giles Watling.

Thank you,

3:57:393:57:44

Madam Deputy Speaker, I will

endeavoured to be as brief as I can.

3:57:443:57:51

It is a pleasure to follow the

honourable lady from Lewisham East.

3:57:513:57:55

I am in an interesting position in

this debate. I was well-known in my

3:57:553:58:00

area as a Remainer, and I was

shaking my head earlier because I

3:58:003:58:03

believe that we still will have a

very close relationship with Europe.

3:58:033:58:10

However, 70% of my constituents

voted Leave. This was of course ten

3:58:103:58:14

months before 62% of them voted for

me. Extrapolate that from that what

3:58:143:58:19

you will. Perhaps it was because I

was a Remainer and a Eurosceptic.

3:58:193:58:24

Because you can be both. The

aforementioned interesting position

3:58:243:58:27

which I find myself in is that

although I am a Remainer I am above

3:58:273:58:32

all a Democrat. I am determined to

follow through on Brexit, therefore.

3:58:323:58:36

That is a very clear message, not

only from my constituents, but from

3:58:363:58:40

the entire UK as a whole. It was

always going to be a rocky path, as

3:58:403:58:44

we have seen. It has also been beset

by those who might want to make the

3:58:443:58:49

UK take another part. Or even, as

has been said here today, a second

3:58:493:58:55

referendum. This, in my view, would

be a serious mistake and take us

3:58:553:58:58

back to the dark days of destructive

popular as and I'm sure none of us

3:58:583:59:04

want to poke that particular

honour's nest again -- destruct

3:59:043:59:06

populism. -- but warned it nest.

Referenda are by their nature

3:59:063:59:14

divisive, taking the example of the

Scottish referendum, and I have had

3:59:143:59:18

the pleasure of working in that

wonderful country, in many places

3:59:183:59:20

there was always the joshing of the

token Sassenach, it was a position I

3:59:203:59:30

enjoy very much but a path I had to

play. Shortly after that referendum

3:59:303:59:34

I returned to Scotland, I was

working in Glasgow, it was

3:59:343:59:37

interesting to find that the Scots

were now at each other's Road and

3:59:373:59:42

the token Sassenach was largely

ignored -- others throats. We have

3:59:423:59:47

now had our EU referendum and the

results have had similar effects. I

3:59:473:59:52

reiterate, we don't want a second,

even more divisive, referendum.

3:59:523:59:58

Madam Deputy Speaker, the only

sensible way forward is to ensure a

3:59:584:00:01

clean break with Europe, whilst

ensuring the best deal possible. A

4:00:014:00:05

unique deal, as the Minister said, a

bespoke deal that suits the special

4:00:054:00:11

relationship we already have with

our European neighbours. Leaving the

4:00:114:00:14

EU cannot mean long term membership

of the EU Single Market or the

4:00:144:00:19

Customs Union. That would mean

complying with the EU's rules and

4:00:194:00:26

regulations, with the UK having very

little or no say over them at all.

4:00:264:00:29

By remaining a member of the Single

Market and Customs Union, the UK

4:00:294:00:34

would effectively not be leaving the

EU at all. It would mean less

4:00:344:00:38

control for the UK, and not more.

And that is not what my

4:00:384:00:43

constituents, or the UK as a whole,

voted for. Indeed, my constituents

4:00:434:00:48

voted to step out onto the world

stage and take the lead and the

4:00:484:00:53

advantage of new opportunities. I'm

pleased that we are now building the

4:00:534:00:57

economic base that will help our

country compete in the world market.

4:00:574:01:01

And I'm pleased to say that

withdrawing from the EU, the UK will

4:01:014:01:05

be leaving the common fisheries

policy, a policy which has a

4:01:054:01:08

profound impact on both the UK's

coastal communities and on the

4:01:084:01:12

sustainability of our fish stocks.

As an MP for a coastal community,

4:01:124:01:16

the wonderful, glorious sunshine

coast of Klatten, Walton and

4:01:164:01:20

Frinton, I believe it is imperative

the Government does not give ground

4:01:204:01:23

to the EU on this issue, especially

now that Donald Tusk has requested

4:01:234:01:27

that reciprocal access to our

fishing waters be maintained. I'm

4:01:274:01:31

also delighted to say that according

to the press today, EU negotiators

4:01:314:01:35

have accepted our demands to pursue

an independent trade policy whilst

4:01:354:01:39

remaining inside the Customs Union

and singles market, but only during

4:01:394:01:43

the transitory, or as the Minister

said, the information period. Then

4:01:434:01:48

we come out of the Single Market and

the Customs Union --

4:01:484:01:52

reimplementation period. And as we

have done so many times before,

4:01:524:01:54

strike out on our own to a bright

future. That bright new future can

4:01:544:01:59

only be achieved if we give our

negotiators a free hand to do the

4:01:594:02:02

deal. Now, those who have been

challenging the deal-makers to

4:02:024:02:08

declare their hand in Parliament

before any deal is struck

4:02:084:02:12

demonstrate a fundamental ignorance

of the whole process of

4:02:124:02:16

negotiations. The 27 countries of

Europe must not be given the luxury

4:02:164:02:20

of knowing exactly where our bottom

line is. That clearly negates any

4:02:204:02:26

negotiation. And I would say to the

honourable gentleman, he is left

4:02:264:02:29

now, but the honourable gentleman

opposite, it's really a case of the

4:02:294:02:32

tell him, bright! I also think we

made a mistake when just before

4:02:324:02:39

Christmas we voted for final

Parliament approval on any deal,

4:02:394:02:42

that we can our negotiators' can.

The EU is now aware that whatever

4:02:424:02:46

deal is struck it might not be

approved. Thus, they might feel they

4:02:464:02:51

can strike a harder bargain. Will

furthermore, if I may be allowed a

4:02:514:02:57

small analogy, Madam Deputy Speaker,

if I came to buy your car, Madam

4:02:574:03:00

Deputy Speaker, whatever odd sticker

you might have in the windscreen, we

4:03:004:03:06

both want something. I want your car

and you want my cash. At the outset,

4:03:064:03:10

we must be prepared to walk away.

That is the position that my

4:03:104:03:15

honourable friend from Wokingham

made. That, as we all know, is how

4:03:154:03:20

business works. So, to sum up with

another analogy, you don't play

4:03:204:03:24

poker and show your hand. Madam

Deputy Speaker, I too have lived and

4:03:244:03:30

worked in Austria. I lived in

Vienna. I had a long-term contract,

4:03:304:03:35

a lovely place, I had a long-term

contract also in Rome. It was five

4:03:354:03:39

years, I think. Like many of us,

I've holidayed all over Europe. You

4:03:394:03:43

would imagine those experiences

would make me a classic Europhile,

4:03:434:03:46

which it did. But then I reflected

on the fact that I've also worked in

4:03:464:03:52

America, Egypt, the Far East, the

Arabian states and Africa. So, what

4:03:524:03:55

does that make me now? A global

file's I think it does. Madam Deputy

4:03:554:04:03

Speaker, the opportunities to live,

work, trade and play all over the

4:04:034:04:06

world will still be with us. Leaving

the EU, we will have our own control

4:04:064:04:12

over our own borders. And that,

perhaps more importantly, we will

4:04:124:04:15

still be able to attract people from

all over the world to be a part of

4:04:154:04:19

this great British economy. Finally,

Madam Deputy Speaker, I declare

4:04:194:04:23

myself to be wearing two hats this

afternoon in this debate. One as an

4:04:234:04:27

optimist and the other as an animal

lover. And I have been an animal

4:04:274:04:31

lover all my life. I own a House

full of Gaby dogs. In the 1990s, I

4:04:314:04:36

was part of a team that broke up a

puppy farming ring in Wales. And I

4:04:364:04:41

can now see an optimistic future

where we can dramatically strengthen

4:04:414:04:44

our animal rights laws when no

longer constrained by the EU. The UK

4:04:444:04:51

has higher animal welfare standards

than any other country in Europe.

4:04:514:04:55

And this Government has delivered a

slew of animal welfare initiatives

4:04:554:04:58

over the past months alone. For

instance, an ivory ban to help and

4:04:584:05:03

elephant poaching. CCTV in

slaughterhouses. Increasing maximum

4:05:034:05:07

sentences for animal cruelty, an

electric shock collars for dogs and

4:05:074:05:12

banning micro beads and cutting down

on single use plastic that harm our

4:05:124:05:15

fish, birds and the animals just to

name a few. EU law should not be a

4:05:154:05:22

benchmark in this area. If you can

keep farm animals in unspeakably

4:05:224:05:26

cruel conditions in Europe, you can

do it without breaking a single EU

4:05:264:05:30

law. It would be depressing if this

was the standard we were setting for

4:05:304:05:34

ourselves. I want to focus on

strengthening animal rights as we go

4:05:344:05:38

through Brexit, and I see a good

opportunity as we consider a ban on

4:05:384:05:42

live animal exports as part of our

trade policy. Now, I truly believe

4:05:424:05:46

we will in the end get a good deal.

If we hold our nerve, the future can

4:05:464:05:51

be very bright indeed. Thank you.

Madeleine Moon.

Thank you, Madam

4:05:514:05:56

Deputy Speaker. Can I does start by

saying, it was wonderful to hear the

4:05:564:06:00

speech from the honourable member

from Broxtowe. I can so I cannot say

4:06:004:06:04

how much I agree with her in terms

of how much this House knows what we

4:06:044:06:08

are working towards is an absolute

unmitigated disaster for our

4:06:084:06:12

constituents. Everyone of us in here

apart from this tiny minority who

4:06:124:06:17

are driving this disastrous move

forward are absolutely clear that we

4:06:174:06:22

are going to leave our country and

our constituents poorer. It will be

4:06:224:06:27

a disaster. And I have to say to the

honourable member from Clapton, it

4:06:274:06:31

is nonsense to say that when the

facts change you don't change your

4:06:314:06:34

opinion. If that was the truth,

there would be no divorce. And I

4:06:344:06:40

have to say, it would mean to every

woman in this House you'd never be

4:06:404:06:46

able to take that dress back that

you thought was wonderful when you

4:06:464:06:49

first saw it, but when you got it

home it looked an absolute

4:06:494:06:56

unmitigated disaster. So, the facts

are changing. We are finally getting

4:06:564:06:59

to the truth of the disaster of

where we are going. It is right that

4:06:594:07:03

we go back to the people and say, do

you want to change or mind? Is this

4:07:034:07:06

the right direction? Now, the

impact, as we've heard from the

4:07:064:07:13

honourable member from Lewisham

East, is going to be tremendous in

4:07:134:07:15

London. But I cannot begin to tell

you how disastrous it's going to be

4:07:154:07:19

in Wales. Can I just start with the

issue of gross value added? Gross

4:07:194:07:27

value added is one of those terms

that doesn't really resonate with

4:07:274:07:30

constituents. But if you looks just

in Wales, gross value added in 2016

4:07:304:07:40

was £59.6 billion. The Goverment's

projections would mean that Wales

4:07:404:07:47

would lose about £5.7 billion in the

event of no deal.

4:07:474:07:58

Now that is over perhaps about 15

years, but that is a huge impact on

4:07:584:08:04

the Welsh economy. It is not the

most vibrant economy, but it would

4:08:044:08:08

have a devastating impact. I could

throw lots of figures about. But one

4:08:084:08:13

that impacts on families across my

constituency is inflation. Inflation

4:08:134:08:20

remains at 3%. Wages aren't going

up. But prices are. And my families

4:08:204:08:26

are getting worse off. The cost of

food and other goods is soaring as a

4:08:264:08:32

result of a fall in the value of the

pound, which remains about 15% below

4:08:324:08:40

pre-referendum levels. This is a

visible impact on the the daily

4:08:404:08:44

lives of my constituents, it is very

real and they deserve, having seen

4:08:444:08:50

that impact, the right to another

opportunity to decide is this a bet

4:08:504:08:56

I want to take on an uncertain and

clearly even on the government's

4:08:564:09:03

analysis, going to be giving them

further poverty and disaster and

4:09:034:09:09

limited opportunities for their

children. I have to say that I've

4:09:094:09:17

talked to lots of my constituents

about how they voted and some of

4:09:174:09:23

them said yes, they got a great

result, they got the result they

4:09:234:09:28

wanted after the referendum. They

got rid of David Cameron. Job done.

4:09:284:09:32

And that is what they have actually

said to me. It wasn't about Europe.

4:09:324:09:38

It was about austerity. They hated

what was happening to their

4:09:384:09:43

families. They hated the fact that

so many were heading off to food

4:09:434:09:48

banks. Some of them, yes, it was

about immigration. But really it was

4:09:484:09:54

about the wages that they were

getting and the 1% pay rise that

4:09:544:09:59

year on year was meaning that they

and their families were falling

4:09:594:10:04

behind. For many of them, it was

about taking back control. And I

4:10:044:10:10

would say to them and it is these

unelected bureaucrats, I said OK,

4:10:104:10:17

tell me what is the name of the

director of education in Bridgend

4:10:174:10:23

council. They said, I don't know Mrs

Moon. Well that is an unelected

4:10:234:10:29

bureaucrat. It is not what your

bureaucrats you need to know, it is

4:10:294:10:37

your politicians, because they hold

the bureaucrats to account and make

4:10:374:10:41

the decision and it is knowing who

your politicians are and getting

4:10:414:10:44

behind them that is the important

part of democracy. It is a grim time

4:10:444:10:52

in front of ourselves. Considering

most businesses are constantly

4:10:524:10:57

coming to MPs and telling us that

the customs union, if we leave it,

4:10:574:11:05

will have severe consequences. I'm

really nervous. At two ends of my

4:11:054:11:11

constituency I have two major

employs, the Ford engine plant and

4:11:114:11:18

Tata Steel. But the impact on the

car and the steel industry is going

4:11:184:11:23

to be devastating. When we leave the

European Union. I cannot begin to

4:11:234:11:28

tell you what the impact of job

losses in those two industries will

4:11:284:11:34

have on my constituent. I cannot

begin to tell you the loss of future

4:11:344:11:39

opportunities for the children in my

constituency. I've got fantastic

4:11:394:11:48

schools and I'm so proud of bright,

alert youngsters that we should as a

4:11:484:11:54

country be promoting a future for.

Instead of which I hear fantasies

4:11:544:11:59

about wonderful trade deals with

countries that are never, ever go

4:11:594:12:06

and read the submission from Tata

steel, are never going to bring the

4:12:064:12:12

benefits that access to the European

markets currently bring to Tata

4:12:124:12:15

Steel. It is frightening. Will give

way.

She is making an important

4:12:154:12:22

speech and may I suggest to her and

my honourable friend for Clacton

4:12:224:12:26

that he might want to go to her

constituency and talk to Ford and to

4:12:264:12:32

Tata Steel and understand the

importance of frictionless supply

4:12:324:12:37

chains, membership of the customs

union, membership of the single

4:12:374:12:40

market, in the very real industrial

world which I know she and her

4:12:404:12:45

constituents have.

I thank the

member, because I have those

4:12:454:12:50

conversations all the time. And when

I trotted over to read those

4:12:504:12:56

wonderful insight reports that we

were going to see, I was appalled.

4:12:564:13:04

At the poor quality of analysis that

had been done that was going to be

4:13:044:13:08

devastating for people I respect.

I'm not going to vote for anything

4:13:084:13:12

they think damages the people that I

represent. The guilt they feel as

4:13:124:13:22

the member for Broxtowe said about

having vote ing for that referendum

4:13:224:13:29

without insisting we had these

debates before we took the

4:13:294:13:32

referendum to the people is awful. I

attended a WI recently and a lady

4:13:324:13:37

said, we shouldn't have been asked

to vote, should we? I didn't really

4:13:374:13:42

know what I was voting for. I went

with what everybody else was saying.

4:13:424:13:47

But really I didn't understand the

consequences and now I'm worried

4:13:474:13:52

about my grandchildren. We should

all be worried about those

4:13:524:13:56

grandchildren. So here we are. We're

not going frictionless trade. If we

4:13:564:14:06

leave the single market and the

customs union, we are going to make

4:14:064:14:12

sure that our families are worse

off. Europe is on our doorstep. You

4:14:124:14:20

can get from here into the centre of

Europe in a matter of hours. The EU

4:14:204:14:27

has 37 trade deals with more than 65

countries around the world. Covering

4:14:274:14:34

15 to 17% of the UK trade in goods.

The EU has trade deals in place with

4:14:344:14:42

more countries than the US, 20,

China, 23, and Australia, 19. And

4:14:424:14:50

yet what are we going to do? Throw

it away. I'm a member of the NATO

4:14:504:14:54

Parliament. Every time I attend a

meeting colleagues tell me of the

4:14:544:15:00

fear of the consequence of Britain's

departure to the stability of

4:15:004:15:06

Europe. Every time they ask me is

there any chance, is there any

4:15:064:15:10

chance? I just hope to God we wake

up and time and say yes, there is a

4:15:104:15:17

chance.

Thank you. I've a lot of

sympathy for what has been said. I

4:15:174:15:26

put my case slightly differently and

I shall put it perhaps a little more

4:15:264:15:31

succinctly. I take the view this

country made an error. It was a

4:15:314:15:36

democratic error, but it was an

error. Because we are democrats we

4:15:364:15:41

have to live with the consequence of

the error until such time as I hope

4:15:414:15:45

may one day be the case when a

future generation reverses that

4:15:454:15:49

error in some way. But that is not

something, because I'm also a

4:15:494:15:53

realist that is likely to happen any

time soon. Therefore, we must make

4:15:534:15:59

sure that we respect the outcome of

the referendum like it or not, but

4:15:594:16:03

do so in a way which mitigates to

the greatest extent possible the

4:16:034:16:09

damage which is going to flow from

it. The Prime Minister at the

4:16:094:16:15

Mansion House speech was frank as

honest as I have always found her

4:16:154:16:20

about the fact that there is damage.

I don't do my politics in faith,

4:16:204:16:27

that is appropriate for the

confessional, but not for

4:16:274:16:31

Government. I do my politics in

hard-headed reality. That is why I

4:16:314:16:34

want to talk about services.

Financial services underpin the

4:16:344:16:39

economy of this country. We are a

service economy, or we are nothing.

4:16:394:16:43

The position on services is

worrying. My constituents are

4:16:434:16:51

dependent on services, 36% work in

the sector. Members have already set

4:16:514:16:58

out the massive contribution that

financial services make to our

4:16:584:17:01

economy, beyond any other. Anything

that damages financial services

4:17:014:17:07

damages the economy, damages the tax

stake, damages our public services,

4:17:074:17:12

damages the lives of every man and

woman in this country. It directly

4:17:124:17:18

damage the lives of my constituent

and I won't support anything that

4:17:184:17:22

damages the lives and well being and

the services of my constituents. I

4:17:224:17:27

want to help the Prime Minister to

avoid that happening. I think her

4:17:274:17:32

Mansion House speech sets that out.

And to do that, I want to give her

4:17:324:17:36

flexibility, but I say that the

people who as soon as she expresses

4:17:364:17:42

realism and seeks to seek

flexibility and recognise there must

4:17:424:17:48

be compromise, as soon as my my

honourable friends appear with a pot

4:17:484:17:51

of red paint, they are the ones who

make her life harder. Let's look

4:17:514:18:01

specifically at what needs to be

done to achieve the result that we

4:18:014:18:06

need for financial services. We have

to find, if it is possible, it is a

4:18:064:18:12

big if, and whether it will be

achieved, I know not, but let's set

4:18:124:18:16

it out. The City of London made it

clear we have to find a way to

4:18:164:18:21

enable us to have maximum access for

financial services firms and for

4:18:214:18:27

legal services firms which underpin

them the two go to together. There

4:18:274:18:33

has to be an early transitional

period. To ensure day one

4:18:334:18:40

continuity. Secondly there's got to

be, I want to hear from ministers

4:18:404:18:46

how we take this forward and

reassurance this is central, mutual

4:18:464:18:52

market access built on the existing

position of regulatory convergence.

4:18:524:19:00

That should be based on a commitment

and an ongoing commitment to mutual

4:19:004:19:07

recognition and co-operation with a

joint UK, EU mechanism. And there

4:19:074:19:20

must be a dispute mechanism. We need

to think about the costs of

4:19:204:19:30

tribunals.

I'm grateful to my

honourable friend for giving away.

4:19:304:19:39

Would he agree, is he concerned

about the actual cost of all these

4:19:394:19:46

arrangements, because the

arrangements will have to be made to

4:19:464:19:49

govern these sectors and to manage

these new arrangements. Would he

4:19:494:19:53

like to see government produce

before any final vote in this place,

4:19:534:19:58

the actual costs of delivering the

Brexit deal?

I think my honourable

4:19:584:20:04

friend makes a fair point. We should

do that. There is going to be an

4:20:044:20:09

administrative cost and that will be

borne by consumers and taxpayers.

4:20:094:20:14

The industry has done analysis in

other areas, if there is regulatory

4:20:144:20:31

fragmentation. Changing location of

cheering houses -- clearing houses,

4:20:314:20:39

for euro clearing, that is a cost of

some 25 billion. Not just to us, but

4:20:394:20:46

to the EU as well. It is in our

mutual interest on both sides to get

4:20:464:20:56

an agreement. So we have to be

honest about that, and we have go

4:20:564:21:02

get those agreements. We have got to

make sure there is the ability to

4:21:024:21:07

hire talent, talent across the board

and to move it seamlessly. It has

4:21:074:21:10

got to be possible that people can

move staff from a Brussels or a

4:21:104:21:15

Paris or a Frankfurt office to

London without any hold up, not even

4:21:154:21:19

the need for a slightest bit of

paperwork. That is in our interest,

4:21:194:21:29

otherwise we damage the eco-system

of the global financial hub that

4:21:294:21:34

London has and the markets, as the

Chancellor recognised, feeds

4:21:344:21:42

business and sovereign debt for the

27 nations. Too much rigidity pufts

4:21:424:21:51

that at risk. The other under-Pinner

is the legal sfrubg chur. Structure.

4:21:514:22:00

We are the venue of choice for

international litigation and dispute

4:22:004:22:05

arbitration, that is a great gainer

of income to this country. The legal

4:22:054:22:13

services sector is worth some 26

billion. That is 1.5% of GDP. The

4:22:134:22:19

export of about 4 billion. About 55%

of that to the EU. Fly in fly out

4:22:194:22:28

arrangements are critical and we

need to have an arrangement with

4:22:284:22:32

after the establishment directive it

is possible to have qualifications

4:22:324:22:39

recognised and secondly that lawyers

can move seamlessly from one office

4:22:394:22:44

to another and have the professional

standing to advise their clients in

4:22:444:22:50

27 country and very importantly that

they have recognition of

4:22:504:22:58

client/legal privilege protection,

which only exists if you're a

4:22:584:23:02

recognised lawyer, who is recognised

within one of 27 states. Without a

4:23:024:23:07

deal on that, British lawyers will

not be able to advice clients in a

4:23:074:23:12

European 27 country.

4:23:124:23:19

Neither will they be able to appear

in the courts or have the right to

4:23:194:23:22

be present in the negotiations of

important commercial contracts. It

4:23:224:23:28

is critical we don't forget the need

to get the legal services sector

4:23:284:23:33

squared off in terms of our future

arrangements. We've also got to make

4:23:334:23:38

sure that we have recognition and

enforcement of judgments. A

4:23:384:23:43

derivative contract is something

that we let the world in. It's only

4:23:434:23:48

worthwhile as it can be enforced. We

have to make sure that not only over

4:23:484:23:53

the transition period but going

forward, 3-5 years typically, they

4:23:534:23:59

and all other commercial contracts

have certainty of enforcement at the

4:23:594:24:02

end of the day. At the moment, we do

that with one simple EU directive.

4:24:024:24:07

It would be most unfortunate if we

had to replicate that advice with

4:24:074:24:11

each country, plus those with which

the EU has reciprocal arrangements.

4:24:114:24:14

We can mitigate by immediate action

to draw in the Hague Convention,

4:24:144:24:19

that is a back-up position, but it

is not an ideal situation, we have

4:24:194:24:23

to go further than that. I would ask

the Minister to give us in detail

4:24:234:24:27

what meetings he and his department

have had with the bar Council, the

4:24:274:24:32

Law Society, and the senior

judiciary where appropriate, to

4:24:324:24:34

discuss the practical steps we need

to take forward to safeguard the

4:24:344:24:38

position of Britain's legal services

direct to the Mac sector going

4:24:384:24:43

forward.

There have been a lot of

interventions, I'm going to have to

4:24:434:24:51

reduce the time limit to six

minutes. Therein mind, that is even

4:24:514:24:54

going to be tight. -- bear in mind.

I would urge members to bear that in

4:24:544:25:00

mind. Deidre Brock.

Thank you, Madam

Deputy Speaker. Brexit, what a

4:25:004:25:07

success it's been! The restoration

of greatness upon this sceptred

4:25:074:25:09

isle. Except it's not. When we

finally got some sight of what the

4:25:094:25:16

Government thinks might be the

economic impact of exit, it was

4:25:164:25:20

horrific, it was even more horrific

when you remember that the

4:25:204:25:24

Government has exhibited worrying

signs of being massively optimistic

4:25:244:25:26

about exit when most cannot see

reason to be optimistic at all. Your

4:25:264:25:33

graphical analysis suggests we are

going to be at the unpleasant end of

4:25:334:25:36

a sharp stick, and sectoral analysis

suggests the stick is sharper than

4:25:364:25:41

it should we. The Financial Times

has estimated the cost of being

4:25:414:25:48

about the same as the side of a red

bus. We shouldn't take a

4:25:484:25:51

journalist's word for it, though. As

the right honourable member for

4:25:514:25:56

Broxtowe Augsburg of the OBR

forecast, we should actually realise

4:25:564:25:59

that it's growth forecast for this

year, next year and the year after I

4:25:594:26:06

third down on the forecast made an

March 2016 for the third year. The

4:26:064:26:13

Scottish affairs committee has been

taking evidence on the impact that

4:26:134:26:16

Brexit will have on the immigration

that Scotland needs. There simply

4:26:164:26:24

isn't any organisation coming to

that committee and saying they think

4:26:244:26:27

it is a good idea that we are

leaving the EU. Or that there are

4:26:274:26:32

fabulous opportunities waiting for

us just around the corner. We are

4:26:324:26:34

hearing from nobody who thinks that

our economy is going to be bolstered

4:26:344:26:39

by losing access to the Customs

Union and Single Market, and

4:26:394:26:44

definitely nobody who thinks that

cutting immigration is a good thing.

4:26:444:26:49

CBI Scotland says that the Brexit

referendum was the stepping off

4:26:494:26:52

point for its members putting the

prospect of new immigration rules

4:26:524:26:57

and the uncertainty that has

surrounded the state is of EU

4:26:574:27:00

workers at the top of their

concerns. That's the CBI that also

4:27:004:27:04

said that EU nationals make a bridal

contribution to the Scottish

4:27:044:27:07

economy. The same argument was made

by the National Farmers' Union of

4:27:074:27:14

Scotland, who pointed to the

thousands of agricultural workers

4:27:144:27:16

from the rest of the EU who keep

Scotland's farms working. I assume

4:27:164:27:21

there are many similar stories to be

told elsewhere. Johnny Holton of the

4:27:214:27:25

NFU as pointed out that our battery

services in Scotland depend on

4:27:254:27:30

people trained in other EU country

-- that services. All haulage

4:27:304:27:34

industry depends on drivers from

elsewhere in Europe and so on,

4:27:344:27:39

associated industries have a

reliance on a user to them is coming

4:27:394:27:42

here and working to make sure that

agricultural products get to market.

4:27:424:27:47

Skilled jobs need to be done and we

don't have enough skill people in

4:27:474:27:50

the UK to do them. It's not a case

of employers importing cheap labour,

4:27:504:27:58

it is a case of there not being the

workers here to do the jobs that

4:27:584:28:02

need doing. We've already heard

stories of crops rotting in the

4:28:024:28:06

fields because there weren't the

workers to pick them as a result of

4:28:064:28:10

EU citizens not coming to work the

fields, that is before the

4:28:104:28:13

restrictions bike. As Johnny Hall

pointed out, the damage is being

4:28:134:28:17

done before the Sunni our plans come

into view. -- the sunny uplands. Our

4:28:174:28:24

members have very high value crops

in the field that have simply rotted

4:28:244:28:27

over the winter because there has

not been the labour to pick the

4:28:274:28:32

vegetables. We will always being

told by Mr Gove that we would be

4:28:324:28:37

driving an agricultural industry

based on new technology. We are yet

4:28:374:28:40

to discover the technology that can

recognise and take the right crop at

4:28:404:28:44

the right time as effectively as a

human being can. The food and drink

4:28:444:28:50

industries are major players in

Scotland's economy, and this is the

4:28:504:28:54

agriculture sector telling us, we

need immigration to be easy to

4:28:544:28:58

administer and freely available.

Losing the freedom of movement of EU

4:28:584:29:01

citizens is a disaster for

agriculture, and farmers need a

4:29:014:29:05

replacement quickly. The NFU S have

come up with a solution that might

4:29:054:29:12

assist. Mr Hall told us that they

are in conversations with the

4:29:124:29:16

Scottish Government and Defra and

other government departments, but

4:29:164:29:19

the door they simply cannot open is

the Home Office, the one door they

4:29:194:29:24

need to open. That needs to be

fixed, and I hope the Minister may

4:29:244:29:27

be able to at least give some assure

and assistance there. Our food

4:29:274:29:33

prices are already being adversely

affected by the weakness of the

4:29:334:29:36

pound and increasing import cost.

Families the length and breadth of

4:29:364:29:40

these islands cannot afford price

increases caused by Gazidis because

4:29:404:29:44

farmers can't get their crops from

the Beeld. -- caused by Gazidis. Our

4:29:444:29:49

agricultural economy needs to be

protected and nurtured, and that

4:29:494:29:53

needs freedom of movement. I am

reminded of a speech being given by

4:29:534:29:57

the then Environment Minister, the

currently drive the House, when she

4:29:574:30:00

said we would address the economic

chaos of Brexit by selling food

4:30:004:30:04

around the world. Unless you meant

that we would offer countries a pick

4:30:044:30:09

your own deal, I'm not sure that we

can sell food that stays in the

4:30:094:30:13

field! The same story is coming

through from other sect does, too,

4:30:134:30:18

academia, financial services, they

all rely heavily on EU citizens and

4:30:184:30:23

marketplace. Without freedom of

movement, we have economic meltdown.

4:30:234:30:29

Taking back control appears to be

the equivalent of being a child

4:30:294:30:32

sitting in the back of the car with

a toy steering wheel. You have the

4:30:324:30:36

impression of power, but it's just a

plastic wheels spinning round and

4:30:364:30:40

round. There's been far too much of

the confidence from the Government

4:30:404:30:44

and not nearly enough hard work and

proper dedication to the task.

4:30:444:30:49

Brexit is a disaster, and it will

continue to be the most costly and

4:30:494:30:53

damaging political decision any

Government has made in modern times

4:30:534:30:56

unless we stop it. Let's end it, for

Petti sake -- for pity's sake.

Leo

4:30:564:31:05

Docherty.

Madam Deputy Speaker, my

brief remarks considering the

4:31:054:31:11

security situation with regards to

European affairs and the impact that

4:31:114:31:14

can and should have an different

spending. Madam Deputy Speaker, my

4:31:144:31:20

approach towards specifically

Russia, which is the most urgent

4:31:204:31:23

security challenge when it comes to

European affairs, would be one of

4:31:234:31:28

peace through strength, we must

consider this attitude at a time

4:31:284:31:32

when our own strength militarily has

been significantly reduced following

4:31:324:31:34

this call challenges of 2010

onwards. Concurrent of that, we have

4:31:344:31:42

had the rise of a resurgent Russia,

which has invaded Georgia in 2008,

4:31:424:31:47

has invaded Ukraine and Crimea and

has of course recently prosecuted

4:31:474:31:53

this outrageous attack in Salisbury.

We need to be very clear about that.

4:31:534:31:59

And realised that we need to reclaim

this ground if we are going to have

4:31:594:32:05

a credible deterrent. The STS of

2015 laid out a very good plan for

4:32:054:32:12

Rigoni that ground. But the bottom

line is, if we want a strong and

4:32:124:32:17

capable militarily, we've got to pay

for it. The £2 billion black hole in

4:32:174:32:21

the plan of 2015 I think we need to

urgently address. I know the

4:32:214:32:31

Treasury knows the importance of

this in terms of national security

4:32:314:32:34

and our security in Europe. Now,

this is urgently very important

4:32:344:32:39

because of the fact that we have an

enhanced forward presence. We have

4:32:394:32:43

800 soldiers in Estonia. And I would

like to quote the words of General

4:32:434:32:48

Sir Richard charas, a former deputy

supreme Allied Commander in Europe,

4:32:484:32:52

he says that investment in their

capabilities is important, because

4:32:524:32:57

if we don't invest in their

capabilities they will remain

4:32:574:33:00

apolitical token. He says, without

Robert command and control and the

4:33:004:33:04

attack helicopters and logistics to

turn individual battalions into an

4:33:044:33:11

effective fighting brigade spread

over four countries, those

4:33:114:33:14

battalions would be picked off

piecemeal should Russia attack. The

4:33:144:33:17

need for urgent investment, Madam

Deputy Speaker, is very clear in

4:33:174:33:22

deep. Our defence posture is one

that we prosecute through Nato in

4:33:224:33:26

Europe. And we must also make the

argument urgently to our allies of

4:33:264:33:32

the requirement for them, like us,

to spend 2% at least of their GDP on

4:33:324:33:36

defence. We are one of only five

countries that do that. And if Nato

4:33:364:33:43

is to be a credible deterrent to a

resurgent Russia, that needs to

4:33:434:33:46

change. Now, Nato is not without its

problems. But we must express a

4:33:464:33:53

collective political will in Nato if

it is to be... It is very alarming

4:33:534:33:58

that in 2015 the Leader of the

Opposition called for Nato to be,

4:33:584:34:02

and I quote, closed down. He went on

to say that Nato should give up, go

4:34:024:34:07

home, and go away. And it is on

record that the Leader of the

4:34:074:34:13

Opposition has refused to say if he

would defend a Nato are like that

4:34:134:34:17

was invaded by Russia. Which is

astonishing -- a Nato are.

4:34:174:34:21

Collective differ so might deterrent

and defence is the fundamental basis

4:34:214:34:25

of Nato. Furthermore, one of the

advisers to the Leader of the

4:34:254:34:32

Opposition, with regard to another

outrageous Russian foreign policy

4:34:324:34:38

act, the invasion of Crimea, went on

record to say that in his view, his

4:34:384:34:46

view, Russia's invasion wasn't an

invasion, it was an annexation, and

4:34:464:34:51

it was clearly defensive, and that

Western aggression and lawless

4:34:514:34:54

killing is on another scale entirely

from what Russia has contemplated

4:34:544:34:59

and carried out, removing any

credible basis for the US and its

4:34:594:35:03

allies to rail against Russian

transition. Madam Deputy Speaker, if

4:35:034:35:07

Nato is to be the basis of our

collective deterrent, we need to

4:35:074:35:10

express political will and political

conviction to it. On the note of

4:35:104:35:16

Crimea, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

would just like to conclude by

4:35:164:35:21

quoting a former Prime Minister of

Great Britain, who understood the

4:35:214:35:25

importance of peace through

strength. Who understood the

4:35:254:35:28

importance of deterring Russian

expansionism and aggression by a

4:35:284:35:35

credible military force. And this

was Lord Palmerston, who was

4:35:354:35:39

speaking in 1858. And they knew a

thing or two about dealing with

4:35:394:35:42

Russia back then, because of course

we were engaged in the Crimean

4:35:424:35:46

conflict. Lord Palmerston said, the

policy and practice of the Russian

4:35:464:35:50

government has always been to push

forward its encroachment as fast and

4:35:504:35:53

as far as the apathy or want of

firmness of other governments would

4:35:534:35:58

allow it to go. But always to stop

and retire when it met with decided

4:35:584:36:05

resistance. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

must have will provide that decided

4:36:054:36:11

resistance and we must not allow the

voices of apathy or those that want

4:36:114:36:17

firmness in their political

conviction to undermine that, and I

4:36:174:36:20

hope that attitude of peace through

strength will guide not just our

4:36:204:36:25

investment in our defence and our

engagement with Europe, but also our

4:36:254:36:29

security policy as a whole. Thank

you.

Thank you, Madam Deputy

4:36:294:36:34

Speaker. An old saying is that

nature are bores you vacuum, and in

4:36:344:36:39

that way, business are bores

adversity. The Goverment's on report

4:36:394:36:47

makes clear, investment decisions

are also made by European or global

4:36:474:36:52

headquarters, and the continued

uncertainty about trading

4:36:524:36:54

arrangements are making them ask

serious questions about whether they

4:36:544:36:57

will invest in the feud in this

country. Uncertainty across a sector

4:36:574:37:01

can have a real impact, the degree

in communities like mine, where that

4:37:014:37:05

sector represents a big chunk of the

job market. Vauxhall motors factory

4:37:054:37:09

in my constituency is facing huge

uncertainty. Until recently it in

4:37:094:37:15

Boyd 1800 people directly. -- it

employed. This is of pivotal

4:37:154:37:20

importance to my area. How companies

like that fear in the post exit

4:37:204:37:24

world will be how my and my

constituents judge the Goverment's

4:37:244:37:27

handling of this situation, what

happens on people's doorsteps is

4:37:274:37:30

what really matters to them. The key

choices about Vauxhall's future

4:37:304:37:35

rests in the hands of its owners,

based in France. They show no

4:37:354:37:39

sentiment. We have already lost

about 700 jobs since they took over.

4:37:394:37:44

These job losses are extremely

serious and we are told they are a

4:37:444:37:47

reaction to market conditions, a

decline in sales of the Astra. These

4:37:474:37:51

market conditions are not in the

gift of Government. What is within

4:37:514:37:54

their gift are the conditions with

which business can trade. This is

4:37:544:37:59

where the Government needs to start

listening to the industry and

4:37:594:38:01

acting. Traditionally, the sector

makes investment decisions 3-5 years

4:38:014:38:05

in advance. Decisions about

investment in a post-Brexit world

4:38:054:38:10

will be made shortly. The current

model of production at old me a

4:38:104:38:14

board will be discontinued around

the same time, in 2021. The Chief

4:38:144:38:18

Executive of PSA told the BBC, we

cannot invest in a world of

4:38:184:38:23

uncertainty, now is the time for the

Government to provide them with that

4:38:234:38:25

certainty.

4:38:254:38:31

Directly employing over 800,000

people and generating 10 ors % of

4:38:324:38:39

the manufacturing output. Most of

the production is exported to the

4:38:394:38:46

EU. The business, energy and

industrial strategy committee found

4:38:464:38:52

leaving the EU without a deal would

be damaging to the UK automotive

4:38:524:38:55

sector. They concluded that no one

has argued there are advantages from

4:38:554:39:04

Brexit for the automotive industry.

Now we are leaving the EU it is

4:39:044:39:08

important to recognise it is one of

our most vulnerable sectors. We need

4:39:084:39:13

to do everything possible to

safeguard jobs and investment. Once

4:39:134:39:19

jobs are lost they rarely come back.

The sense of denial is palpable and

4:39:194:39:28

it was never meant to be this way.

Too many people have exaggerated the

4:39:284:39:33

simplicity of this. The Brexit

Secretary assured us we would be

4:39:334:39:36

able to access a very large trade

area, much bigger than the EU,

4:39:364:39:41

probably ten times the size. Despite

the fact if it was that big it would

4:39:414:39:47

be an area double the size of the

planet. The Foreign Secretary

4:39:474:39:53

promised us we could thrive as never

before and the international Trade

4:39:534:39:59

Secretary said a trade deal would be

one of the easiest in history. But

4:39:594:40:05

we have such self-confident people,

some 629 days after the referendum

4:40:054:40:13

we still don't know what the deal

is. We have seen ministers bluffing

4:40:134:40:18

and having fantasies about a

promised land that will emerge

4:40:184:40:21

before our eyes without any effort.

The Prime Minister said that new

4:40:214:40:29

trading arrangements would need good

will to succeed. That sound like

4:40:294:40:34

hoping for the best. The people that

are employed need more and the once

4:40:344:40:43

Prout automotive heritage will be

lost. This industry will survive and

4:40:434:40:47

flourish only if we are prepared the

fight for it. If it does turn out to

4:40:474:40:52

be the simple negotiation that the

international Trade Secretary

4:40:524:40:56

promised, he needs to realise for

the sector to continue to trade it

4:40:564:41:00

needs to be protected now. So the

Government do need to act now. And

4:41:004:41:04

for me a commitment to a customs

union is the only way to restore

4:41:044:41:09

certainty and confidence, not some

vague customs partnership that may

4:41:094:41:13

or may not be the same as it is now.

We know the argument about how a

4:41:134:41:19

customs union will impact future

trade deals, I don't think a couple

4:41:194:41:24

of quid off trainers in China is a

price worth paying for destroying

4:41:244:41:33

the automotive sector. The minister

of state said we are working with a

4:41:334:41:39

number of countries to explore the

best way to improve our current

4:41:394:41:46

trade deals. That does not tell fus

there are opportunities outside te

4:41:464:41:49

you. If it is a choice between

preserving trade as some new

4:41:494:41:57

business at some unspecified time in

the future, I know what every person

4:41:574:42:02

with an ounce of common-sense will

choose. The choice is clear and make

4:42:024:42:07

the wrong one and we will never

forgive you and we will never

4:42:074:42:12

forget.

Thank you it is a pleasure

to follow the honourable gentleman

4:42:124:42:19

for Ellesmere Port who gave an

important speech on defending the

4:42:194:42:23

car industry. I appreciate the

concerns of the Vauxhall in his

4:42:234:42:29

constituency and the impact it may

have on jobs. I also understand that

4:42:294:42:35

the Astra model is drawing to the

end of its life and we need the

4:42:354:42:42

plant in Ellesmere Port to gore up

for the next -- gear up for the next

4:42:424:42:47

model and do all we can to ensure

the British industry is ready for

4:42:474:42:53

the next model. The infrastructure

that goes into the industry is so

4:42:534:42:57

important and I believe the progress

we have made in recent years,

4:42:574:43:01

because we have become a net

exporter of cars for the first time

4:43:014:43:06

since the 70s that, progress is

founded on the other qualities our

4:43:064:43:10

United Kingdom has, which is why

Nissan and Toyota are investing

4:43:104:43:17

here. There are so many different

arguments through the Brexit debate

4:43:174:43:21

and I can understand why some

colleagues referenced by my

4:43:214:43:27

honourable friend the member for

Broxtowe about the tone of debate

4:43:274:43:33

may not be what it should be. I

think part of that is because of

4:43:334:43:39

interpretation some people choose to

make of other people's arguments. It

4:43:394:43:43

is better to make your own case and

put that forward and see and enable

4:43:434:43:48

people to see how they themselves

can compare the contrasting

4:43:484:43:52

arguments to see which is the best.

People continue to make the point

4:43:524:43:59

about the red bus touring the

country and that swayed so many

4:43:594:44:02

people. In the run up to the

referendum I held numerous events

4:44:024:44:08

around my constituency and wider

than that to listen to people raise

4:44:084:44:11

their concerns. Not one person did I

meet from the Leave side say I have

4:44:114:44:17

been convinced to vote to leave the

European Union because of a red

4:44:174:44:24

view. No more did people switch view

because of Labour's pink bus in

4:44:244:44:31

2015. We have to be cautious about

ascribing motivations to other

4:44:314:44:34

people. I believe that people have

voted by and large on the the

4:44:344:44:42

European Union based upon their

experience. Their experience over

4:44:424:44:46

the last 40 plus years, whether

under a Conservative, Labour or

4:44:464:44:54

Liberal Democrat Government. And

people have been able to see that

4:44:544:44:57

the European Union has been failing,

failing to reform over that time. We

4:44:574:45:03

do not have a, within the European

Union, a sufficiently responsive

4:45:034:45:08

organisation that can adapt rapidly

to the increasingly rapidly changing

4:45:084:45:12

world that we face. And this is key

in any dynamic economy. We are

4:45:124:45:21

looking at artificial intelligence,

increasing automation and so many

4:45:214:45:26

things coming along and if we are

able independently to make the laws

4:45:264:45:30

and regulations suit our needs and

the United Kingdom as opposed to

4:45:304:45:36

laws suiting the needs of the

European Union with very different

4:45:364:45:41

competing interests, if we can make

our laws suit our needs we will be

4:45:414:45:45

in a better place to face the ever

changing world. A key part of that I

4:45:454:45:51

believe is immigration. I thought

the contribution from the the

4:45:514:45:56

honourable lady for Lewisham was

important, highlighting her

4:45:564:46:02

relationship with Austria. Just as

we want a close relationship with

4:46:024:46:07

many European Union countries, we

ought to reflect upon what Barbara

4:46:074:46:12

Castle said many year ago, she

referenced or suggested the idea

4:46:124:46:17

that we ought not to part Italians,

Germans, the French above Malayans,

4:46:174:46:25

Australians or Indian and ought to

have equality. That is what we ought

4:46:254:46:29

to be seeking. There is a certain

toxicness on the debate immigration

4:46:294:46:40

I loathe that. I believe what we can

do after Brexit is have an

4:46:404:46:47

immigration system that looks at the

qualities, the experience and the

4:46:474:46:52

talents of people who we want to

have in the United Kingdom and

4:46:524:46:55

optimise a policy that works for

Britain and in the British people

4:46:554:47:03

will see how positive our

independence from the European Union

4:47:034:47:06

can be. So in conclusion, I just

want to highlight an area which has

4:47:064:47:12

been fascinating in the last few

months, the Secretary of State for

4:47:124:47:17

the department of... Environment,

food and rural affairs, he has made

4:47:174:47:22

incredible strides in demonstrating

the progress we can make in animal

4:47:224:47:28

welfare that we can deliver after

Brexit. So I believe the British

4:47:284:47:32

people did not have confidence in

belonging to the European Union, but

4:47:324:47:38

the good negotiation deal and

relationship we may have confidence

4:47:384:47:42

in our partnership with our European

friends post-Brexit.

In the time

4:47:424:47:52

available to me I would like to

touch on a number of points.

4:47:524:47:55

Starting with what has been the main

crux of the debate today, the

4:47:554:48:02

trading relationship between the EU

and UK. The European Parliament

4:48:024:48:09

passed legislation and that will

feed into the EU negotiating

4:48:094:48:14

position. It reiterated the position

that Plaid Cymru have had from the

4:48:144:48:20

first day that the best course of

action would be to stay within the

4:48:204:48:24

single market and the customs union.

This is the only realistic solution

4:48:244:48:32

for avoiding a hard boarder in

Ireland and a hard border in the

4:48:324:48:37

ports with Ireland. With Eno We know

the EU have frozen talks until there

4:48:374:48:47

is a solution. . Perhaps it would be

an opportunity to discuss the Labour

4:48:474:48:53

Party's policy on a customs union,

which is a completely different

4:48:534:48:58

thing. It is a souped is up trade

deal. A customs union is what Turkey

4:48:584:49:03

have got. They don't benefit from

all the international trade

4:49:034:49:07

agreements that the European Union

have and we had a long discussion

4:49:074:49:13

about the 50 or 60 traders that that

entails and accumulates a worth of

4:49:134:49:22

450 billion for European trade and

we would lose those and the other

4:49:224:49:26

factor is that what whilst the UK

would lose the benefit of third

4:49:264:49:32

country deals, those countries would

be able to import into the UK. I had

4:49:324:49:39

thought that Labour's solution was

one that could deal with the problem

4:49:394:49:41

of Northern Ireland, but as we see

from Turkey, they have to have lorry

4:49:414:49:46

parks on the border with Hungary and

Romania to deal with the border

4:49:464:49:50

issues. That would be the case in

Northern Ireland and wouldn't deal

4:49:504:49:54

with the major issue in terms of the

border in Ireland. The second issue

4:49:544:50:00

is the cost to individuals. The

national institute of economic and

4:50:004:50:04

social research has already said

that the cost of households in the

4:50:044:50:09

UK is about £600 a year. A bank put

the cost of a no deal at £11,000.

4:50:094:50:18

The biggest cost is in terms of our

public services the 20% of doctors

4:50:184:50:23

working in the Welsh health service

come from the European Union and

4:50:234:50:28

some have already left. 45% of EU

doctors in Wales are considering

4:50:284:50:36

leaving. I had a summit with the

health board about reorganisation

4:50:364:50:43

plans for the health service and

closures of hospitals are on the

4:50:434:50:48

table, because they cannot recruit

and retain staff. The third issue is

4:50:484:50:56

the issue of EU citizenship, and

Plaid Cymru won a vote, the first

4:50:564:51:00

time in our history in the House of

Commons, let he just come on bit, we

4:51:004:51:05

won our first motion on protecting

EU citizenship for UK subjects, now

4:51:054:51:12

the British Government has been

mandated by House of Commons I look

4:51:124:51:20

forward to them do that.

Does he

share my concern throughout the

4:51:204:51:26

process people have talked of

respecting the sovereignty of the

4:51:264:51:29

House. I am sure he looks forward to

the Government supporting that.

Yes

4:51:294:51:40

and I'm sure my comrades in the SNP

look forward to holding the gft to

4:51:404:51:45

account. The fourth issue is the

meaningful vote. Members will not be

4:51:454:51:49

in a position to vote for a bad deal

or no deal. That was the position

4:51:494:51:54

outlined yesterday in the other

place when my colleague Lord Wigley

4:51:544:51:58

raised this issue in the other place

and that then strengthens the

4:51:584:52:03

argument that has been put forward,

specially the member for Broxtowe,

4:52:034:52:07

when she made the case for a second

referendum on the terms of deal. I

4:52:074:52:13

disagree with the member more

Lewisham who said there has been no

4:52:134:52:18

change of public opinion p well I

was in the hair dressers and many

4:52:184:52:23

people there voted out and were

pleading with me to sort out the

4:52:234:52:26

mess and said they would vote

differently. I was buying tiles on

4:52:264:52:33

Saturday for the bathroom, and

everybody there was the same so I

4:52:334:52:37

think there has been big change in

public opinion and people if they

4:52:374:52:42

were given the opportunity to vote

there would be a change of opinion.

4:52:424:52:49

The next issue I want to discuss is

the prospect of a no deal. We have

4:52:494:52:55

often heard from pro-Brexit MPs that

that should the a bargaining

4:52:554:52:59

position held against the European

Union. A no deal scenario for Wales

4:52:594:53:03

would equalise as traffic, as was --

would be catastrophic. As was raised

4:53:034:53:11

excellently by the member for

Bridgend. I'd like to conclude on

4:53:114:53:14

one of the biggest issues facing the

constitutional implications of exit,

4:53:144:53:19

the power grab which is now

impacting the Welsh Government, the

4:53:194:53:26

Scottish Government, the National

Assembly and the Scottish

4:53:264:53:28

Parliament.

Will he give way? The

Prime Minister had repeatedly said

4:53:284:53:36

that Brexit means Brexit, but

Chidobe Awuzie to understand that

4:53:364:53:40

devolution means devolution,

wouldn't you agree -- she doesn't

4:53:404:53:43

seem to understand.

I fully agree.

We have enshrined our constitutional

4:53:434:53:51

settlement and the British

Government is riding a sledgehammer

4:53:514:53:54

through that constitutional

settlement. Ie Enjoy the honourable

4:53:544:53:57

member for Woking's paraphrase about

Parliament, if this bill goes

4:53:574:54:04

through an amended and unless the

British Government except the

4:54:044:54:10

recommendations of the Welsh and

Scottish governments, our respect of

4:54:104:54:14

Parliaments within the British state

will be public Parliaments. This

4:54:144:54:18

rings me to the issue of the UK

internal market which will have to

4:54:184:54:23

be created following Brexit. The EU

deals with these issues at the Romy

4:54:234:54:27

terms of trade within the British

state. As somebody who's ports Welsh

4:54:274:54:32

independence, there will have to be

a UK Intel market if we are to end

4:54:324:54:35

up leaving EU Single Market. The

charge at hand, who construct that

4:54:354:54:40

UK internal market? Is it done on

the basis of the political reality

4:54:404:54:46

we face in the British date, it is a

multipolar state with Bartra

4:54:464:54:51

national governments? Or is it done

by direct rule from Westminster, not

4:54:514:54:55

only the construction but how the

internal market is regulated. I

4:54:554:54:59

would finish on this, Mr Speaker. I

think Westminster laze about

4:54:594:55:05

would-be Costa Jude Law settlements

of Scotland and Wales at its peril.

4:55:054:55:09

-- with the cost to Jude Law

settlements. Unless the respect is

4:55:094:55:14

shown instead of the disrespect we

have at the moment, it will not be

4:55:144:55:20

Brexit we will be discussing in

years to come, it will be Wexit and

4:55:204:55:30

Scexit.

We have too reduced the time

limit, that is the consequence of

4:55:304:55:37

what some people might think are

superfluous interventions and others

4:55:374:55:41

might think or essential.

I was

going to sit down slightly earlier

4:55:414:55:45

anyway to allow the courtesy to

another member to make their speech.

4:55:454:55:50

It has been interesting to listen to

much of the debate this afternoon.

4:55:504:55:53

Some positions our position is that

members and honourable members have

4:55:534:55:57

held for a very long period of time.

For me, it's about trying to set up

4:55:574:56:01

briefly in the five minutes I've got

what vision we should have for the

4:56:014:56:04

future. It seems a long time ago

when we look back at the end of the

4:56:044:56:09

Cold War, the Iron Curtain came down

across Europe and the idea of free

4:56:094:56:15

trade and a free-market zone

spreading into the east of Europe,

4:56:154:56:17

potentially even spreading into

Russia, it was something that some

4:56:174:56:21

people started to debate and look

at. Of course, ten, 14 years back

4:56:214:56:26

was when we started to see the

European Union expanded to many

4:56:264:56:29

countries that had been decimated by

communism, and now have been able to

4:56:294:56:35

become free democracies and start to

become prosperous. The difference

4:56:354:56:38

was that what came with that was

another attempt to try and turn the

4:56:384:56:42

European Union into a federal state.

For example, with the creation of

4:56:424:56:47

its own currency, which, some of the

argument I can remember at

4:56:474:56:52

University 20 years ago, that London

would be decimated and would move

4:56:524:56:54

out if we didn't join the euro. I

can remember I write member for

4:56:544:57:01

Wokingham's book arguing why that

was a load of nonsense at the time.

4:57:014:57:04

Last year or two years ago I did

vote Remain in the referendum, I

4:57:044:57:09

felt unbalanced it was the right

option at the time, it is about

4:57:094:57:12

looking to see how we deliver the

referendum vote. For me, that vision

4:57:124:57:18

is still of free trading and

actually looking to bring down

4:57:184:57:21

barriers between countries and

economies shouldn't stop merely

4:57:214:57:23

because we are looking to leave a

political structure. It's not just

4:57:234:57:30

about looking towards the 27 other

members of the EU. I've always felt

4:57:304:57:34

in the long run, subject to all of

the usual caveats are preserving our

4:57:344:57:39

national serenity and ability to

keep up with policy matters in

4:57:394:57:42

health and welfare standards, we

should be looking to unite together,

4:57:424:57:46

particularly with economies of North

America, with Europe, and

4:57:464:57:50

potentially with other countries

that are developed and have moved

4:57:504:57:52

on. Everyone has said free trade

can't be a one-way thing, it can't

4:57:524:57:56

be what we started to see a few

years ago in Africa, where it was a

4:57:564:58:01

one-way trip to subsidise products

onto developing world markets to put

4:58:014:58:04

out of business people who were

actually trying to compete on a

4:58:044:58:09

level laying filled with ourselves.

One of the reasons why I have always

4:58:094:58:13

supported fair trade is the idea it

has to be both ways. It is perhaps

4:58:134:58:17

sometimes they do go argument. We

have said Brexit will give us the

4:58:174:58:21

chance to review our agricultural

policies, which date from an era

4:58:214:58:25

when we were concerned about whether

we would be able to feed ourselves

4:58:254:58:29

if the next convoy coming across the

Atlantic was torpedoed. That's now

4:58:294:58:32

completely irrelevant consideration.

But there are difficult discussions

4:58:324:58:37

to be had there. But as we move away

from subsidies, there will be those

4:58:374:58:42

who have become quite comfortable in

terms of a particular type of

4:58:424:58:44

subsidy, how we shift to having a

system that is based on production

4:58:444:58:48

to a system that is based on

sustainability, diversification, and

4:58:484:58:53

focusing on smaller consumers and

producers than large, big

4:58:534:58:55

agribusinesses. We have heard it

from the member for Aldershot, we

4:58:554:59:04

could have had more time on the

security situation and the fact that

4:59:044:59:07

European affairs could well be

dominated by what Russia decides to

4:59:074:59:10

do over the next two years. The key

thing we need to be clear about is,

4:59:104:59:14

somebody he was Russian or of

Russian descent is not automatically

4:59:144:59:19

a supporter of Vladimir Putin. It

does a great disservice to many

4:59:194:59:22

people who were repressed and have

fled that country to safer nations

4:59:224:59:27

abroad to just take but in's line

that if you have a passport you must

4:59:274:59:34

instantly be a supporter of a united

Russia. There are many who are not

4:59:344:59:38

and many who have paid with their

lives for that. It is a concern that

4:59:384:59:42

we make sure that if Vladimir Putin

decides, sadly, as he is at the

4:59:424:59:48

moment, to tread a well worn path

that has led Europe to conflict in

4:59:484:59:52

the past, if he decides to continue

down that path, we need to be very

4:59:524:59:56

clear that we will be resolute in

standing by our allies across Europe

4:59:565:00:01

to ensure that if any such

provocation or further attempts to

5:00:015:00:06

destabilise countries in the way he

has done in Ukraine will be met with

5:00:065:00:10

a united and firm response. That's

why it is right what the Prime

5:00:105:00:17

Minister did this week, it is also

right that we look at how we can

5:00:175:00:20

deal looking towards the south,

where other threats to European

5:00:205:00:24

stability and security may come,

particularly with the growth in

5:00:245:00:27

instability in parts of sub-Saharan

Africa which partly drives migrant

5:00:275:00:31

flows towards our shores. With the

time I've got, we need to be clear,

5:00:315:00:36

Brexit is about leaving a political

structure. It is not about leaving a

5:00:365:00:40

continent and it is not about

viewing our neighbours as opponents,

5:00:405:00:43

but as future allies.

Thank you, Mr

Speaker, it's a pleasure to follow

5:00:435:00:49

so many eloquent and long

contributions today. I wonder how

5:00:495:00:52

many arch Brexiteers, how many have

actually spoken to people who work

5:00:525:00:57

in or on businesses to learn about

the impact of not only Brexit but

5:00:575:01:02

the uncertainty about Brexit and how

it is impacting right now on those

5:01:025:01:07

decisions in their constituencies.

Well, I have, so I'm going to share

5:01:075:01:10

with the House just two example is.

I would have covered more but I've

5:01:105:01:14

had to cut and cut my speech as the

second half of the afternoon has

5:01:145:01:18

progressed. One specific small

company and one major sector. So,

5:01:185:01:23

and SME, a research company, the

owner, who remains anonymous, but

5:01:235:01:28

wanted me to know that he runs a

small business. He says, I've

5:01:285:01:34

already lost out because of exit due

to the drop in Stirling putting up

5:01:345:01:38

the cost of our cloud computing by

20%, and uncertainty over future

5:01:385:01:43

research funding. There are lots of

detailed questions from my business,

5:01:435:01:49

as I've no idea how to answer and I

don't have the armies of lawyers and

5:01:495:01:52

accountants to work for me to tell

me. So much for the Tories cutting

5:01:525:01:56

red tape. If there is a hard Brexit,

will there be an an interrupt

5:01:565:02:02

service from all of the cloud

computing currently supplied by

5:02:025:02:06

companies based in Ireland? Will I

be able to access all of my data and

5:02:065:02:10

information on day one? Or will I

need new customs clearance or to

5:02:105:02:15

change my data protection setup?

Will cloud computing be treated as

5:02:155:02:19

an import with tariffs? And

therefore add to my operating costs

5:02:195:02:22

and accounting course as I grapple

with new HMRC rules? These are

5:02:225:02:26

things that could tip my very small

struggling business over the edge.

5:02:265:02:31

I'm sure where not the only

vulnerable SME, he says. He goes

5:02:315:02:35

on... More generally, MPs say they

will protect jobs. In my sector,

5:02:355:02:41

income rather than jobs is already

moving, judging by conversations I'm

5:02:415:02:45

having with partners and in my

networks. Contingency plans are

5:02:455:02:49

already being enacted by SMEs. I

know of companies who have set up

5:02:495:02:53

offices in the mainland EU and are

starting to channel work through

5:02:535:02:56

that, even if it is UK-based staff

doing it for now. I'm being paid in

5:02:565:03:02

Europa work that previously would

have been in sterling which exposes

5:03:025:03:05

me to risk that I cannot offset,

this is all completely legal. Two of

5:03:055:03:10

my most talented EU colleagues have

left the UK because they don't feel

5:03:105:03:14

welcome. They both lived here as

children, but having become parents

5:03:145:03:17

themselves they believe the

situation is too uncertain to keep

5:03:175:03:21

their roots here. In my view, the

loss to Britain will be an invisible

5:03:215:03:26

drip of lost talents and money

rather than announcements by big

5:03:265:03:30

employers, and it will only become

apparent when it's too late. And my

5:03:305:03:33

second example, Mr Speaker, my

constituency is home to a large

5:03:335:03:40

number of broadcast organisations.

Household names such as Sky and a

5:03:405:03:44

myriad of others, many of whom's

main market isn't even in the UK.

5:03:445:03:48

Many of my constituents work in

broadcasting, including a few

5:03:485:03:51

household names. The UK dominates

Europe's broadcasting sector due to

5:03:515:03:56

the availability of skilled

employees and English being the

5:03:565:03:59

dominant language in the industry,

thanks to the country of origin

5:03:595:04:03

principle, hundreds of international

media organisations are based here.

5:04:035:04:08

I can broadcast to anywhere in the

UK without restriction. The trade

5:04:085:04:12

organisation fear international

broadcasters based here would

5:04:125:04:18

reluctantly be forced to restructure

their European operations. This is

5:04:185:04:22

particularly hard Brexit. They said

a month ago that Brexit could cost

5:04:225:04:26

the TV market £1 billion per year in

investment, but thousands of jobs in

5:04:265:04:32

the UK broadcasting sector at risk,

and would undermine the sector's

5:04:325:04:36

long-term global competitiveness.

They go on to say... Like many

5:04:365:04:41

sectors, broadcasters cannot wait

until the cliff edge of March 2019

5:04:415:04:45

to make decisions about the future

of their European businesses. So, Mr

5:04:455:04:51

Speaker, if no deal is not the

Government's intention now, these

5:04:515:04:54

companies are having to make risk

assessments, divert management

5:04:545:04:58

resources into contingency planning

and even decide the risk that no

5:04:585:05:01

deal is too great. They will jump

ship anyway, taking jobs and

5:05:015:05:06

investment with them. This means

additional cost an otherwise

5:05:065:05:10

unnecessary contingency planning. By

version of management time and

5:05:105:05:13

energy, or just cutting and running.

These are the real impact of Brexit

5:05:135:05:18

now. Multiply this by tens of

sectors, hundreds of thousands

5:05:185:05:31

businesses making millions of

decisions about their future. This

5:05:315:05:32

is what is leading to the UK

tumbling down the international

5:05:325:05:34

growth tables, undermining

government income but fund public

5:05:345:05:35

services, and, as looks increasingly

likely, makes our constituents

5:05:355:05:37

poorer. The Government must wake up

and focus not only on the outliers

5:05:375:05:40

in their own party but focus on the

economic prospects of the UK and its

5:05:405:05:44

place in the world. Thank you.

Bill

Esterson stop

5:05:445:05:49

can I apologise to the House for

missing the start of the debate, it

5:05:515:05:55

was entirely beyond my control. Mr

Speaker, can I also thank my

5:05:555:05:59

honourable and right on the ball

friends from their contributions.

5:05:595:06:03

The member for Nottingham East, a

honourable friend from Lewisham

5:06:035:06:08

East, Bridgend, Ellesmere Port,

Brentford and Islwyn. I will just

5:06:085:06:12

mention the comment of my honourable

friend from Lewisham East where she

5:06:125:06:14

described the Government's approach

as fantasy trade jewels and a dogs

5:06:145:06:21

breakfast. I have to say, my dog

would turn up his nose at these

5:06:215:06:25

fantasy trade Ewels on offer from

the Government -- fantasy trade

5:06:255:06:30

Ewels. It cannot be right, Mr

Speaker, that the Government has so

5:06:305:06:34

little regard for the sovereignty of

this House that they afford little

5:06:345:06:37

more than a today general debate and

no meaningful vote, when most of

5:06:375:06:42

this debate was always going to be

about the single biggest issue to

5:06:425:06:45

face this country in generations. As

my honourable friend the member for

5:06:455:06:50

Greenwich and Woolwich told us in

his opening remarks yesterday, the

5:06:505:06:54

Government is attempting to look

like they're doing something when in

5:06:545:06:56

fact they are not only doing nothing

but have no idea what they even

5:06:565:07:00

should be doing. Instead of filling

two days of parliamentary time on

5:07:005:07:05

this general debate, the Government

should be bringing back the Trade

5:07:055:07:08

Bill. The taxation cross-border

Trade Bill and introducing other

5:07:085:07:12

bills but they promised would come,

including those on fisheries and

5:07:125:07:15

agriculture. The Minister yesterday,

the right honourable member for

5:07:155:07:22

Fulham and Chelsea in his opening

remarks congratulated the Government

5:07:225:07:25

on bringing forward the trade and

customs bills and suggested that the

5:07:255:07:29

two bills have been designed to

repair us for every eventuality,

5:07:295:07:35

although they will be needed

regardless of the outcome of our

5:07:355:07:38

negotiations with the EU. They will

give us a strong trade remedies

5:07:385:07:42

regime, he said. Except that they

haven't prepared us for every

5:07:425:07:47

eventuality. In fact, they've

prepared us for no future if

5:07:475:07:51

eventuality whatsoever, as they

failed to set out any legislation

5:07:515:07:55

for future trade agreements or for

the protections of our rights and

5:07:555:07:58

standards.

5:07:585:08:02

FTA,

This has been described by the

industry body representing our

5:08:025:08:08

manufacturing sectors as being the

weakest in the world. Now we

5:08:085:08:13

recognised the need for a trade

remedies authority in our reasoned

5:08:135:08:16

amendment at second reading and at

committee we tried to strengthen the

5:08:165:08:23

powers and and the contribution that

that trade remedies authority will

5:08:235:08:27

need to make. But the Government

voted against each one of our

5:08:275:08:33

aechlts. The Government know they're

in trouble with these bills, that is

5:08:335:08:38

why they're afraid to bring them

back. As many members have pointed

5:08:385:08:42

out, there are significant matters

that remain unresolved and no

5:08:425:08:46

credible solutions have been present

bed ed by the Government. But

5:08:465:08:52

they're eager to rule options out.

The UK's trade with the EU accounts

5:08:525:08:56

for 44% of our total exports, some

229 billion. A further 16% of our

5:08:565:09:04

exports go to those 70 or so

countries which are party to some

5:09:045:09:08

form of a trade agreement with the

EU. In short, the majority of our

5:09:085:09:18

trade is with the EU or countries

with whom the EU has a trade

5:09:185:09:22

agreement. The EU is the largest

trading bloc in the world and it is

5:09:225:09:31

inconceivable any trade deal would

make up for the potential loss of

5:09:315:09:34

trade once we leave. Of course, the

UK will have to conclude new

5:09:345:09:41

agreements with those country and

the Government has attempted to spin

5:09:415:09:45

the trade deal about being about

that. But some of the agreements may

5:09:455:09:49

well be significantly different to

existing agreements. Because

5:09:495:09:55

undoubtedly South Korea and other

countries may well want an agreement

5:09:555:09:59

with the UK after we leave the EU.

The question is however why would

5:09:595:10:06

they want to agree to the same terms

as they, we are enjoying as EU

5:10:065:10:12

members? Further more, these

countries will want to ensure that

5:10:125:10:18

there is no overall disruption to

their trade with the EU. Of course

5:10:185:10:21

they'll will want a clear picture of

what our future agreement with the

5:10:215:10:26

EU looks like. Everybody is out for

the best they can get for

5:10:265:10:30

themselves. Every opportunity to

take a little more and give a little

5:10:305:10:36

less will be capitalised upon. We

know that some of these countries

5:10:365:10:42

have already told the EU they want

to revise the terms of their

5:10:425:10:47

existing deals once the UK has left.

Meanwhile other countries have

5:10:475:10:52

called for changes to their trade

with the UK after Brexit, calling

5:10:525:10:59

for divergence from EU standards or

liberalisation of tariff rate

5:10:595:11:03

quotas. They don't want the same

terms as before, they want better

5:11:035:11:07

terms. For them. Not for the UK.

What it will come down to who has

5:11:075:11:15

the upper hand and benefit of

experience in trade talks the.

5:11:155:11:18

Investors want to know whether they

be able to continue to take part in

5:11:185:11:23

European supply chains and how rules

of origin will apply. Will they have

5:11:235:11:32

to complete screening applications,

will their goods be held up? It is

5:11:325:11:37

clear that the Government has no

idea what to do with respect to the

5:11:375:11:42

border on the island of Ireland. The

Government has repeatedly told us

5:11:425:11:47

they will not have a hard border.

Nor will they have a border at sea.

5:11:475:11:54

They have told us there will be no

infrastructure on the border. Yet

5:11:545:12:02

they have also suggested that a

digital border will be put in place

5:12:025:12:10

and hinted this will involve CCTV

and number place recognition

5:12:105:12:16

technology. How they can exist

without infrastructure is a step

5:12:165:12:20

further along the Secretary of State

blue sky thinking. This proposition

5:12:205:12:26

is untried and untested and it has

been dismissed by businesses, the

5:12:265:12:32

Irish Government and the European

Union and even if that were not the

5:12:325:12:35

case, it would require substantial

systems overhaul across the European

5:12:355:12:40

Union as well within the UK, to

which HMRC has already said they

5:12:405:12:46

would not be in a position to roll

out by the time the UK leaves the

5:12:465:12:51

EU. Further, the success of any

border arrangement if such an

5:12:515:12:55

arrangement could be found, would

depend on the extent to which UK

5:12:555:13:01

regulations were compatible with

those of the EU. These are

5:13:015:13:05

fundamental questions which despite

20 months having passed since the

5:13:055:13:10

referendum, the Government are no

further on with answers. Many of the

5:13:105:13:14

issues will be resolved if as the

opposition have suggested the

5:13:145:13:17

Government were to negotiate a new

bespoke UK/EU customs union. Such a

5:13:175:13:24

customs union would allow for

existing trade agreements to be

5:13:245:13:29

rolled over, disruption to trade and

that is what the government said it

5:13:295:13:37

wants, disruption to trade would

also be avoided. Labour's suggested

5:13:375:13:42

approach would see us working with

the EU in new trade agreements. It

5:13:425:13:46

is shocking that the Government has

drawn a red line on not being in a

5:13:465:13:55

does a customs union. If we agree a

new homeless the EU would be

5:13:555:14:05

strengthened and we would be

strengthened by negotiated alongside

5:14:055:14:11

the largest trading bloc in the

world and it would remove the

5:14:115:14:16

necessity for customs check points

and the infrastructure that would

5:14:165:14:18

accompany them on roads between

Northern Ireland and the Republic of

5:14:185:14:21

Ireland. Our approach recognises

that the EU is is largest market in

5:14:215:14:25

the world and that we are stronger

in future negotiations alongside it.

5:14:255:14:30

It is the Labour Party that is

seeking solutions to the problems

5:14:305:14:35

this Government has presented to the

country.

I call the minister Steve

5:14:355:14:43

Baker to replay. ? Play -- reply.

I

thank all members who have taken

5:14:435:14:53

part. I'm sorry I will not be able

to acknowledge them all in the eight

5:14:535:14:59

minutes remaining. I would just like

to acknowledge the range of advice

5:14:595:15:05

the Government has been given from

my honourable friend for Wokingham

5:15:055:15:07

making a strong case for no deal, to

my honourable friend for brebgs

5:15:075:15:15

Broxtowe making a strong case for a

customs union and my honourable

5:15:155:15:22

friend for Clacton supporting the

centre ground position of Prime

5:15:225:15:25

Minister. The Prime Minister has

been clear that the UK will leave

5:15:255:15:33

the EU in March 2019, a date that is

fixed. This position respects the

5:15:335:15:39

vote of the people to leave the EU

in the referendum in June 2016 and

5:15:395:15:43

there will not be a second

referendum. As the Prime Minister

5:15:435:15:48

set out in our Mansion House speech,

the decision does not make an

5:15:485:15:53

ending, but a new beginning for our

relationship with our European a

5:15:535:15:59

allies.

5:15:595:16:07

I want to talk about some of the

solutions proposed in relation to

5:16:105:16:13

the off the shelf models. As we have

emphasised we don't just want an off

5:16:135:16:19

the shelf solution, we want the

greatest possible tariff and

5:16:195:16:25

barrier-free trade as well as to

negotiate our own free trade

5:16:255:16:29

agreements, particularly in relation

to our advantage in services. We

5:16:295:16:34

want to ensure that UK companies

have the maximum freedom to trade

5:16:345:16:40

with and operate within European

markets and let European businesses

5:16:405:16:43

do the same in the UK. But we have

always said we are not looking for a

5:16:435:16:50

Norway-style deal or a

Canadian-style deal. There is no

5:16:505:16:54

point in starting from scratch,

unlike a country like Kadah, we

5:16:545:17:00

start from -- Canada we start having

the same rules as the EU. The Norway

5:17:005:17:10

would not pass the fist test the

Prime Minister set out. It would

5:17:105:17:16

deliver control of neither borders

or laws. We would have to accept

5:17:165:17:24

four freedoms of the the free

market, including freedom of

5:17:245:17:28

movement. Continued participation

will would mean the UK having to

5:17:285:17:38

adopt new EU rules, over which we

will have little influence and no

5:17:385:17:44

vote. Turning to EFTA, membership of

EFTA in and of itself does not

5:17:445:17:54

deliver any market access to the EU.

It is a trading bloc between four

5:17:545:17:59

European countries, three of which

take part in the single market

5:17:595:18:10

through the EAA arrangement. Joining

EFTA therefore does not say anything

5:18:105:18:17

about our future economic

partnership with the EU. While we

5:18:175:18:20

would want to maintain our deep and

historic relationships with the EFTA

5:18:205:18:25

states, the UK is in many ways

different to these countries,

5:18:255:18:30

population is 65 million and the

EFTA states together make up 14

5:18:305:18:34

million people. In 2015 the EFTA

bloc's collective GDP amounted to

5:18:345:18:46

710 billion. . So the par So that

would not be an appropriate model

5:18:465:19:00

for our future relationship with the

EU or those countries.

I'm grateful.

5:19:005:19:07

I was may have. I was making the

case for the single market. That is

5:19:075:19:15

not an extreme position to hold.

I

listened carefully to the words she

5:19:155:19:22

used, I'm sure she referred red red

to EFTA. But I stand by the remarks

5:19:225:19:32

I made. I hope she won't mine me

saying from the perspective of many

5:19:325:19:37

who want to leave the EU, to say we

want to solve the problems of

5:19:375:19:42

leaving by staying in the EU's

internal market and customs union so

5:19:425:19:48

you have to accept the EU common

policy, that appears to be saying we

5:19:485:19:54

must solve the problems of the EU by

staying within it. That is the how

5:19:545:20:02

it comes across to many people. I

did listen carefully. He mentions

5:20:025:20:06

transition, of course we have set

out the case for the implementation

5:20:065:20:09

period. But I must press on. I want

to pick up a point in relation to

5:20:095:20:20

borders and migration. Remaining in

the EA agreement would mean we would

5:20:205:20:24

have to continue to accept the four

freedoms of the single market,

5:20:245:20:30

including freedom of movement. While

Liechtenstein has different rules,

5:20:305:20:37

the UK is different to

Liechtenstein. It has a population

5:20:375:20:41

of less than any constituency in the

UK and we can say this exemption

5:20:415:20:47

afforded to a microstate would not

be afforded to the United Kingdom. I

5:20:475:20:51

very much reject, regret that with

only two minutes to go I'm going to

5:20:515:20:55

have to shorten my speech. I will

just say in relation to the customs

5:20:555:21:01

union, Turkey's customs union with

the EU does not cover certain

5:21:015:21:08

sectors and does not guarantee

frictionless trade, because a

5:21:085:21:11

customs union alone does not solve

some of the... They're saying it is

5:21:115:21:16

not what they're looking for. I know

that they're looking for is to be in

5:21:165:21:24

the customs union. That is the

implication of their position. The

5:21:245:21:27

implication of their position is

they don't wish to leave the

5:21:275:21:30

European Union. They want the

European Union to control our

5:21:305:21:33

tariffs, they would be happy for the

European Union to control our laws,

5:21:335:21:37

they would be happy to accept free

movement. This is not what people

5:21:375:21:42

voted for. We must lose sight of our

aim to build a new partnership that

5:21:425:21:50

sees us stay the closest of friends

and allies, as the Prime Minister

5:21:505:21:54

has set out, our vision that is of a

UK that is a champion of free trade

5:21:545:22:01

based on high standard, which forges

a bold partnership with our

5:22:015:22:07

neighbour and reaches out beyond to

foster trade agreements with nations

5:22:075:22:12

across the globe. As we approach

this marked council, both sides have

5:22:125:22:18

agreed that we want a common fight

against terrorism and crime, both

5:22:185:22:22

sides have agreed that we want

participation on research,

5:22:225:22:27

innovation and cultural and both

sides have said we want to avoid the

5:22:275:22:33

interruption of flights and a trade

agreement covering all sectors with

5:22:335:22:38

zero tariffs on goods and we shall

succeed.

5:22:385:22:48

The question is that this House has

considered European affairs. Speaker

5:22:485:22:51

As many as are of the opinion, say

"aye". To the contrary, "no". The

5:22:515:22:54

ayes have it, the ayes have it.

Additions to David Linden.

Thank you

5:22:545:22:59

very much, Mr Speaker. Ten years

ago, we the taxpayer wailed out the

5:22:595:23:05

Royal Bank of Scotland during the

financial crisis and now they are

5:23:055:23:08

trying to close down much valued

local branches. At the weekend, I

5:23:085:23:14

joined community at diverse to

gather signatures for this position

5:23:145:23:19

so, petition, which reads... The

proposed closure of the publicly

5:23:195:23:26

owned Royal Bank of Scotland branch

will have a detrimental impact on

5:23:265:23:30

local communities and the local

economy. The petition requests that

5:23:305:23:33

the House of Commons urges the

Treasury, the Department for

5:23:335:23:37

business, energy and industrial

strategy, and the Royal Bank of

5:23:375:23:41

Scotland to take into account the

concerns of petitioners and halt the

5:23:415:23:44

plant closures of these branches.

5:23:445:23:49

Royal Bank of Scotland closure in

steps. Thank you. We come now to the

5:24:025:24:07

adjournment.

I beg to move that this

House can now adjourn.

The question

5:24:075:24:15

is that this House can now

adjourned.

Thank you, Mr Speaker. I

5:24:155:24:20

rise to discuss the UK tax treatment

of certain pensioners, but the

5:24:205:24:25

subject is rather wider than your

league Cern, I just have two or

5:24:255:24:33

three constituents quite exercised

by recent changes. A change George

5:24:335:24:37

Osborne brought in, to do away with

the concession, those who had or on

5:24:375:24:41

pensions will attack that 90% of

their income by pushing it up 100%

5:24:415:24:47

in 2017-18, this has had a material

effect on a number of my

5:24:475:24:50

constituents. Clearly there must be

people who work for a number of

5:24:505:24:55

organisations who lend pensions back

into the UK who may well be affected

5:24:555:24:59

by this particular tax change. I

intend to talk a bit about Cern but

5:24:595:25:03

also one of two other international

organisations. The more I looked

5:25:035:25:07

into this, the more complex the

issue becomes. Cern was set up in

5:25:075:25:12

1954 by Unesco as an international

organisation based in Geneva to

5:25:125:25:16

carry out fundamental research in

high-energy physics. The UK was a

5:25:165:25:19

founding member amongst 12 states.

Today there are 22 member states.

5:25:195:25:25

The host nations of Switzerland and

France. Most of those who work on a

5:25:255:25:30

day-to-day basis live in Switzerland

or France. And they lived in and

5:25:305:25:36

around the Bozhynskyi of Genevois.

Cern served as a model for

5:25:365:25:43

successful European collaboration

and similar organisations have since

5:25:435:25:45

been created based on the Cern

structure working in other fields

5:25:455:25:49

such as space research. On retiring,

Cern staff have pensions in Swiss

5:25:495:25:56

francs, they are not an generous

pensions, they are in six figures,

5:25:565:25:59

because these are extremely able,

talented scientist to have committed

5:25:595:26:04

themselves to science. Cern staff

Cosby in one of the home states or

5:26:045:26:08

move elsewhere. Many other member

states actually do offer favourable

5:26:085:26:13

tax treatment to attract staff to

their country, ranging from Austria,

5:26:135:26:18

who allow Cern staff to retire

tax-free, or Sweden have low rates,

5:26:185:26:25

typically in the order of 10%. The

UK never gave any kind of social

5:26:255:26:31

privileges to Cern retirees. But

there was a provision under our tax

5:26:315:26:38

law that 90% of foreign pensions

would be taxed. If you are on a

5:26:385:26:44

6-figure pension, you disregard the

first eight or 10,000, that brings

5:26:445:26:47

you down in all of the various tax

brackets, it is a concession worth

5:26:475:26:50

having. Cern pensioners who are

particularly bright have to decide

5:26:505:26:57

when they finish work where they are

going to land them and their family.

5:26:575:27:01

Many wish to move back to the UK and

they have seen the modest

5:27:015:27:06

concessions of the UK Government

still attractive to come and retired

5:27:065:27:09

to places like Poole. I'd make one

very important point about

5:27:095:27:14

pensioners who work for Cern. They

have not benefited from UK tax

5:27:145:27:20

concessions in any kind of way. And

they don't get the 25% tax-free cash

5:27:205:27:27

payment which a UK taxpayer would

pay. Effectively, they have earned

5:27:275:27:33

the pension by working abroad for an

international organisation in which

5:27:335:27:35

we have a big interest. They've come

back to the UK and win given a

5:27:355:27:39

slightly better tax situation, I

think to probably recognise the fact

5:27:395:27:43

that many people who have foreign

pensions do not benefit from the

5:27:435:27:46

reduced rate that people who

contribute pensioners do within this

5:27:465:27:53

country. Pensioners of other

international organisation similar

5:27:535:27:55

to Cern do receive special

concessions to the UK Treasury. The

5:27:555:28:02

United Nations, I understand, there

are various organisations

5:28:025:28:05

representing those who have worked

for the UN or various agencies, and

5:28:055:28:08

I believe there are discussions

undergoing at the current time about

5:28:085:28:12

the appropriate rate. I know there

are discussions to do with

5:28:125:28:15

pensioners from the World Bank.

There is an organisation which

5:28:155:28:22

concerns a number of other European

organisations who work under similar

5:28:225:28:29

terms and conditions as Cern. They

are called the coordinated

5:28:295:28:33

organisations. It is the Council of

Europe, European face agency,

5:28:335:28:40

organisation for the exploitation of

meteorological satellites, the North

5:28:405:28:46

Atlantic Treaty Organisation, the

Organisation for economic develop

5:28:465:28:49

and Corporation. All of these

organisations have their pay of

5:28:495:28:52

rations than by an organisation

essentially done so, called the

5:28:525:28:57

International service the

renumeration is an pensions, based

5:28:575:29:00

in Paris. I understand that the

civil servants that work for these

5:29:005:29:03

organisations are only tax that 50%

of their particular salary. -- are

5:29:035:29:10

only tax at. There are international

examples of concessionary rates of

5:29:105:29:14

which organisations which Britain is

part of. My constituents have a very

5:29:145:29:19

simple request. If the UK Treasury

isn't going to tax them on 50% of

5:29:195:29:26

their income, which I doubt,

somehow, it is their wish to go back

5:29:265:29:29

to the 90% rate for which they were

happy on, and the proposition of

5:29:295:29:34

which many decided to move back to

the United Kingdom. I stress that

5:29:345:29:38

because some of the pensions are

high, over 20 years, it represents

5:29:385:29:43

probably a couple of million pounds

worth of sterling. And bearing mind,

5:29:435:29:46

getting landed back to the UK in

Swiss banks, this money is not only

5:29:465:29:51

being paid in tax but being spent in

the UK. There is a very strong

5:29:515:29:55

economic argument for trying to

pitch to get people who have good

5:29:555:30:00

international salaries to come back

and retire in the UK in order to

5:30:005:30:04

feed that very important column, the

UK in visible earnings. Therefore,

5:30:045:30:12

my constituents, they particularly

feel that the rules have been

5:30:125:30:15

changed after they thought

effectively they would only be taxed

5:30:155:30:19

at 90%, and they would like to see

the UK Government reconsider this

5:30:195:30:23

particular issue. Now, I did ask the

House of Commons Library what

5:30:235:30:28

happened to those civil servants who

retired from the EU, and was told

5:30:285:30:32

very politely that the EU tax them

and keep the money and HMRC, I'm

5:30:325:30:36

very surprised I HMRC, they are

letting the site down, they don't

5:30:365:30:39

have any say over EU retired civil

servants who retire back to the UK.

5:30:395:30:46

I suspect this is one of those fine

points of detail we dealt with in

5:30:465:30:51

the withdrawal negotiations. I'd

also be extremely surprised if they

5:30:515:30:54

were given a preferential situation

if the UK Government were to change

5:30:545:30:58

that and make their pensions taxable

at 100%. So, this is a complex area.

5:30:585:31:07

There are a number of tax treaties

and international organisations.

5:31:075:31:11

They all run on a different range of

rules. But my essential point is the

5:31:115:31:16

few constituents I have who have

worked hard in the scientific sector

5:31:165:31:19

who own good pensions who felt they

had a proposition being pack that

5:31:195:31:24

90% now feel somewhat aggrieved that

the previous Chancellor has pushed

5:31:245:31:28

up their rate to 100%. It wasn't the

most generous tax proposition. Other

5:31:285:31:34

countries are far more generous. But

this rate was attractive enough to

5:31:345:31:38

get them to move back to places like

ball, and I hope the UK Government

5:31:385:31:42

will look into this and consider

this as an option. Since this is a

5:31:425:31:47

conflict area, the Minister might be

willing to meet with me and a few

5:31:475:31:53

Cern pensioners to discuss this more

fully so we can get to the bottom of

5:31:535:31:56

whether or not they are being

treated in a fair and reasonable

5:31:565:31:59

manner. Bailly, congratulations on

your post. You are one of the

5:31:595:32:04

members of these benches who I

always thought were destined for

5:32:045:32:07

higher things, and you have to start

somewhere. Economic secretary of the

5:32:075:32:12

Treasury is a fine and important

place.

Robert Jenrick.

Thank you, Mr

5:32:125:32:18

Speaker, you can always count on the

member to put me in my place! Can I

5:32:185:32:24

begin by thanking my honourable

friend from Poole for highlighting

5:32:245:32:29

this issue and begin by saying how

proud we are of the pioneering work

5:32:295:32:33

carried out at Cern and for the work

of all of those who have retired and

5:32:335:32:37

returned to the UK, and what a

beautiful place to retire to an

5:32:375:32:42

rider seaside in Paul Magrin. Mr

Speaker, it seems appropriate to be

5:32:425:32:47

talking if only tangentially about

Cern's work in the week in which we

5:32:475:32:51

lost that rate physicist, Stephen

Hawking. And I think one of the few

5:32:515:32:58

scientific bets that he lost in his

career was that the Higgs bison

5:32:585:33:01

would never be found. Even somebody

of his genius can get things wrong

5:33:015:33:07

every now and again. The Government

is committed, of course, to a fair

5:33:075:33:13

and consistent tax system. This is

especially important in pensions,

5:33:135:33:18

when the Government promotes saving

through tax incentives and

5:33:185:33:21

allowances, and we want those

incentives to work and to be fairly

5:33:215:33:25

distributed. As my honourable friend

outlined, the history of the issue

5:33:255:33:29

before us today was at the Autumn

Statement in 2016, the Government

5:33:295:33:32

reviewed regime and announced that

the UK tax treatment of foreign

5:33:325:33:37

pensions would be changed, so it

would be closely aligned with those

5:33:375:33:42

of UK pensions. Following this in

the finance bill in 2017, we

5:33:425:33:48

legislated so that with effect from

the 6th of April of that year, 100%

5:33:485:33:53

of income from foreign pensions has

been liable to UK tax when

5:33:535:33:58

previously it was 90%. This aligns

the tax treatment of those UK

5:33:585:34:01

pensioners with those who earned

their pension overseas, ensuring, we

5:34:015:34:08

believe, a fair system. At the

outset, when contributions are made

5:34:085:34:12

towards a pension, whether the

pension is UK or foreign, these

5:34:125:34:16

contributions are usually free of

any tax paid in the UK. With this

5:34:165:34:22

change, the tax treatment of both

contributions and payments are now

5:34:225:34:25

consistent. Now, my honourable

friend raised a series of points

5:34:255:34:30

which I hope I will be able to

provide some clarity with respect

5:34:305:34:34

to. Firstly, with regard to other

international organisations, because

5:34:345:34:38

he was kind enough to speak to me

before this evening's debate and

5:34:385:34:42

raised a number of international

organisations which urges citizens

5:34:425:34:45

to work in and make a valuable

contribution to, such as the OECD

5:34:455:34:49

and Nafta, the United Nations and

others, and my honourable friend

5:34:495:34:53

noted that pensioners from these

international organisations or

5:34:535:34:59

organisations of a similar type to

these are reimbursed, for example

5:34:595:35:04

50% of their income tax payments.

Now, it's important to remember or

5:35:045:35:10

to note with this regard that this

doesn't arise as a result of any

5:35:105:35:17

countries' tax rules, it is not of

because a particular deal made by

5:35:175:35:21

the United Kingdom with any of those

organisations, but because of the

5:35:215:35:24

specific provisions within the

pension scheme of that international

5:35:245:35:29

organisation. With regards to Cern,

it would be Cern's decision whether

5:35:295:35:35

they want to make a similar

provision in their own pension

5:35:355:35:38

scheme either for the future or to

reopen and reassess past practice

5:35:385:35:42

for certain pensioners who had

retired, withdrawing on their

5:35:425:35:47

pensions and are now my honourable

friend's constituents. Any payments

5:35:475:35:50

received by UK residents are subject

UK tax, including the reimbursement

5:35:505:35:56

with respect to all international

organisations. I will return to the

5:35:565:36:00

EU, it has, as so often is the case,

has social treatment. With regard to

5:36:005:36:07

international organisations --

special treatment. The UK only

5:36:075:36:09

supports special tax treatment for

organisations where employees have

5:36:095:36:15

worked for the UK, which is somewhat

a different situation for tax

5:36:155:36:21

purposes. Aside from the EU, the UK

doesn't have any bilateral agreement

5:36:215:36:25

in relation to the tax treatment of

international organisations with

5:36:255:36:28

other countries. We do with the EU,

I only exception, that is common

5:36:285:36:33

practice across the union. My

honourable friend also raised the

5:36:335:36:41

issue of international

organisations, and we, sorry,

5:36:415:36:48

international comparisons. We

understand that other major

5:36:485:36:51

economies actually are typically

taking a similar approach to the

5:36:515:36:53

UK's with respect to tax and

pensions. There are countries such

5:36:535:36:58

as France, Germany and Switzerland

which all tax occupational pensions

5:36:585:37:01

like Cern and the foreign income of

their residents. There may be other

5:37:015:37:08

examples, such as the one that he

raised and spoke to me earlier

5:37:085:37:11

about, and I'm happy to look into

those, that may be a topic that we

5:37:115:37:14

could discuss the week to meet. Our

major international competitors and

5:37:145:37:19

the countries which one presumes the

majority of Cern employees are drawn

5:37:195:37:24

from, take a similar approach to the

one that we have done. Now, my

5:37:245:37:27

honourable friend raised another

point, which is in our

5:37:275:37:33

correspondence prior to this debate,

which is that the Government could

5:37:335:37:38

introduce a 25% tax relief on Cern

pensions. To mirror the tax-free

5:37:385:37:43

lump sum. And I understand that

would be an attractive proposition

5:37:435:37:46

for Cern pensioners. However, the

tax-free lump sum is not allow

5:37:465:37:51

months, it is a qualifying lump sum,

sorry, if a qualifying lump sum is

5:37:515:37:55

not paid, the relief isn't

available. These lump sums can be

5:37:555:37:58

paid free of UK tax whether built-up

in a foreign or UK pension if the

5:37:585:38:04

qualifying conditions are met, and

allowing for 25% tax relief outside

5:38:045:38:08

of these circumstances would we

believe, and I hope my honourable

5:38:085:38:12

friend will understand this, would

undermine these qualifying

5:38:125:38:15

conditions which apply to all

pensioners.

5:38:155:38:19

I hope some of my explanations have

explained the rationale behind the

5:38:195:38:25

Government's policy S I appreciate

my honourable friend, the concerns

5:38:255:38:29

he raises and reassure him that the

Government has not sought to target

5:38:295:38:34

any individuals un-Farley, or --

un-Farley or impact -- unfairly. It

5:38:345:38:45

is an important and increase aspect

of the modern labour force with

5:38:455:38:53

increasing globalisation and a

global market for talented

5:38:535:38:56

individuals. The changes we made in

2017 stopped people from

5:38:565:39:01

transferring their pensions abroad

to avoid UK tax. That was a

5:39:015:39:06

consideration, but that was not the

primary motivation. Our primary

5:39:065:39:10

motive was as part of a wider move

to consistency and fairness in

5:39:105:39:16

pensions and taxation. The

Government recognises those in

5:39:165:39:19

receipt of foreign pensions face

additional costs, that was the

5:39:195:39:25

original motivation behind the 90%

rate when it was introduced in the

5:39:255:39:30

70s. But we have taken the view that

it is not for Government to Koch

5:39:305:39:35

compensate for those individuals for

their choice to work outside the UK

5:39:355:39:40

as use this as a UK tax break. It is

our role to encourage a fair tax

5:39:405:39:46

regime and the changes have

equalised the system from which only

5:39:465:39:51

over seas-based employees were able

to benefit. So Mr Speaker if I can

5:39:515:39:57

conclude by thanking my honourable

friend for raising this issue and

5:39:575:40:01

thanking his constituents and others

who maybe paying attention to this

5:40:015:40:05

debate for the work they have done

at CERN, which the Government and

5:40:055:40:09

all member of this House are rightly

proud of and proud that UK citizens

5:40:095:40:18

have played a part in that and they

have returned to the UK for their

5:40:185:40:22

retirement. The government is

delighted to welcome them home to

5:40:225:40:29

spend their retirement in places

such as Poole and that plays an

5:40:295:40:31

important part in our economy. I

hope that the member from Poole's

5:40:315:40:36

constituents will at least

appreciate the Government's

5:40:365:40:39

rationale for making the changes

over the last few years and that we

5:40:395:40:43

took a decision to treat all UK

pensioners consistently. Judgments

5:40:435:40:48

like this are difficult ones and

they do involve winners and losers.

5:40:485:40:53

But we appreciate the views of those

of the member for Poole's

5:40:535:40:57

constituents and I would be happy to

meet with him and with his

5:40:575:41:01

constituents in person if it would

help to further the conversation to

5:41:015:41:04

listen to their specific concerns

and see what if anything we might be

5:41:045:41:08

able to do.

I do think this is a

complex area and I think my

5:41:085:41:16

constituents would be thankful if

they could have a brief meeting to

5:41:165:41:21

go through some of their concerns

perhaps outside the public

5:41:215:41:25

spotlight.

It is a complicated area.

I hope the comments I have made

5:41:255:41:29

provide some answers to them and to

my honourable friend, but I would be

5:41:295:41:36

happy to meet with him with some of

our officials at the Treasury who

5:41:365:41:40

might be able to shed further light

and answer in greater details the

5:41:405:41:46

questions they have and

understandable questions, because

5:41:465:41:48

they're about the financial security

they will be able to enjoy in later

5:41:485:41:52

life. I hope that the debate has

provide some answers and that the

5:41:525:41:59

meeting that will follow will

provide more. But if I could just

5:41:595:42:05

conclude by saying that we believe

that the approach that was taken

5:42:055:42:08

before was a fair one, it was driven

by a desire to see fairness and we

5:42:085:42:17

hope members can support that as a

principle. Once again thank you to

5:42:175:42:21

my honourable friend for raising

this important matter.

Order. The

5:42:215:42:24

question is that the this House do

now adjourn. As many of that opinion

5:42:245:42:29

say aye. The contrary no. I think

the ayes have it. Order. Order.

5:42:295:42:43

Live coverage of the day's proceedings in the House of Commons, including a statement on building safety, a statement on Myanmar, formerly known as Burma, and the second day of debate on European affairs.